From nobody Wed Apr 1 02:47:56 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: txauth@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: txauth@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B84A3A0940 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 2020 02:47:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zXpjK2vEVe-T for ; Wed, 1 Apr 2020 02:47:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi1-x236.google.com (mail-oi1-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1E3B43A093F for ; Wed, 1 Apr 2020 02:47:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi1-x236.google.com with SMTP id t25so21654367oij.2 for ; Wed, 01 Apr 2020 02:47:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=kT/aZvZam53jLU7b5Ys+NQezacUGIaZd2GI4BTAhDIM=; b=CTx7gNzkFVqpfkKXPGgACnaTpnnT09PjZnTWIlAbuK3QS8Tmr8jdBRLa5KjR30wAkh zGoER58vHB3F2vs18EMn3dFd3gkvukK54fJCyDb0K0K+EDjupZ8hs6dFmTMR6VsSomq5 E7wYGZn2ZjnANXAk1vz7PiEmgF8eNkrXl1UvaTffppQDD52YZgmFGByrBk2fu1MFR9y7 Eg30HyRo04PcmIVhS3ERtGJ3VJwB+rXkHY0e2yGA64wGCLifOCVIj5/iURplj5LXcDeD sT5uk9B0IJPCbFiKyebOeionl1HNrL0/sk/xbanPGghyzOWpO37wvElLEYzWAzjpcrOl 82UA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=kT/aZvZam53jLU7b5Ys+NQezacUGIaZd2GI4BTAhDIM=; b=bwNViTkgwe9u7+RDR4YBxBpOvWAKLGO6WhjqiAvgL6b5t4qQwpqj/wmiEsvLCwa6aK rR+heJwU0TAHWO3T27eDkGQy6v26XZ9KV9FwLPVUCVqm5WtfD2o/lhGugQf+GOBzYu2H tivkkgDmgrTQgoTF09CMGoOSpJKQJMioHPTItTNloBCJrnN5G+ZquweaFGmbn4azq3Wq HW8WsvZbBrnU+Adc2ZWBDrqCOQo1ylA1I74CoXyHgIhHc1VigLzAY7iPTtXiBK0XyKHj Ty8uK+36V1WivIjQKVrGixgi0V4Dkc0Fhqbp5YLaJmHtIZoDIHjvAfaFKl8GH178mS43 IJhA== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PubzJc2fhGWER72F9On69SwYvjC7REobiDTYBtDEHAK3zgT2Ijyy 0DnEVueH8veHp7zSpkMMh76f5ZCVOWSWMZHcjN0I+Z+hCA4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypIBXAiPHTIwSD/IG6M/PkF9yRWj/ozaxydV1gfAK4vnLavuDSbC/FG61vb+sPi1PH1zJP0U41UsApwFK9XOdUs= X-Received: by 2002:aca:ac89:: with SMTP id v131mr2173304oie.7.1585734472275; Wed, 01 Apr 2020 02:47:52 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Fabien Imbault Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 11:47:41 +0200 Message-ID: To: txauth@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ed9b4905a237932a" Archived-At: Subject: [Txauth] TxAuth at IETF-107, draft minutes X-BeenThere: txauth@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2020 09:47:54 -0000 --000000000000ed9b4905a237932a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Thanks for the minutes and recording. The XYZ and XAuth discussion was interesting. I get the industry requirement to map the proposal to the existing systems, this doesn't come as a surprise. However, when I see questions like "what is meant by identity?", I'm kind of wondering whether the discussion is slowly shifting to abyssal open items that can't be answered. >From the outside, I get the impression this could significantly delay practical work from being done. Maybe the focus should be on whether there's something unacceptable in the current charter (I don't see any but maybe I'm missing something), and provide more detailed use cases on what will be covered in the first iterations. Fabien --000000000000ed9b4905a237932a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks for the minutes and recording. The XYZ and XAuth di= scussion was interesting.=C2=A0

I get the industry requi= rement to map the proposal to the existing systems, this doesn't come a= s a surprise.
However, when I see questions like "what is me= ant by identity?", I'm kind of wondering whether the discussion is= slowly shifting to abyssal open items that can't be answered.=C2=A0

From the outside, I get the impression this could si= gnificantly delay practical work from being done. Maybe the focus should be= on whether there's something unacceptable in the current charter (I do= n't see any but maybe I'm missing something), and provide more deta= iled use cases on what will be covered in the first iterations.=C2=A0
=

Fabien
--000000000000ed9b4905a237932a-- From nobody Wed Apr 1 07:28:50 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: txauth@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: txauth@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4789F3A1037 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 2020 07:28:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VCHDwxXCCHKP for ; Wed, 1 Apr 2020 07:28:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from outgoing.mit.edu (outgoing-auth-1.mit.edu [18.9.28.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E1BD83A1034 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 2020 07:28:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.13] (static-71-174-62-56.bstnma.fios.verizon.net [71.174.62.56]) (authenticated bits=0) (User authenticated as jricher@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) by outgoing.mit.edu (8.14.7/8.12.4) with ESMTP id 031EShTs006882 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 1 Apr 2020 10:28:43 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Justin Richer In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 10:28:43 -0400 Cc: txauth@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <76A17445-AC2A-4F08-9B39-0A30BE58CFB4@mit.edu> References: To: Fabien Imbault X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Txauth] TxAuth at IETF-107, draft minutes X-BeenThere: txauth@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2020 14:28:49 -0000 Getting that kind of understanding of scope is exactly why questions = about identity were raised. People aren=E2=80=99t asking what = =E2=80=9Cidentity=E2=80=9D means in general =E2=80=94 I don=E2=80=99t = think there is an answer to that one =E2=80=94 but rather what does = =E2=80=9Cidentity=E2=80=9D mean when it=E2=80=99s mentioned in the = charter. Which is why I=E2=80=99ve edited the charter text to more = specifically talk about TxAuth carrying identifiers and assertions.=20 =E2=80=94 Justin > On Apr 1, 2020, at 5:47 AM, Fabien Imbault = wrote: >=20 > Thanks for the minutes and recording. The XYZ and XAuth discussion was = interesting.=20 >=20 > I get the industry requirement to map the proposal to the existing = systems, this doesn't come as a surprise. > However, when I see questions like "what is meant by identity?", I'm = kind of wondering whether the discussion is slowly shifting to abyssal = open items that can't be answered.=20 >=20 > =46rom the outside, I get the impression this could significantly = delay practical work from being done. Maybe the focus should be on = whether there's something unacceptable in the current charter (I don't = see any but maybe I'm missing something), and provide more detailed use = cases on what will be covered in the first iterations.=20 >=20 > Fabien > --=20 > Txauth mailing list > Txauth@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth From nobody Wed Apr 1 07:39:09 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: txauth@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: txauth@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE0E83A1062 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 2020 07:39:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 34Ao2tu23Arc for ; Wed, 1 Apr 2020 07:39:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ot1-x335.google.com (mail-ot1-x335.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::335]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 751963A1036 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 2020 07:39:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot1-x335.google.com with SMTP id c9so26086883otl.12 for ; Wed, 01 Apr 2020 07:39:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=OSboPnRxV+POxfehZFjHRDsFzgeR5NTP5dnzm2uM2GY=; b=rQS9EFpFiEU0bDGVgr2Of6c60SdPQuNpYorR+c4aN21pWjdanzsJjmSNmmW4r2LSMd Ng6hQqtfmBNblBaKkIkmnbTmLVqNlOu1J9BqocYdnQS9kpLdYenR8gfVrOaXlX+tQJpY /2kVGwHvvN2GRSMDKeWLHdI9twk+hPC+rVz5GQoyC96+o/xyDdFPDy83frgaczJdDujt vMMZEymMV+u1vhLKY3dAqAAvV0v6fnNhImmIUlJX71ZPzN7nyq0CNl+8sTEDwhbG4Vdq Sh8uqoj6C+QDahUC6PKLOvV6Ziu50wTFdskTPIsSE43KuwRBWf0QGKptYfLgd+NjOs2G dr3A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=OSboPnRxV+POxfehZFjHRDsFzgeR5NTP5dnzm2uM2GY=; b=PjIgWfJaNDJtMlBOrJBFAf1JkrXE/4Kc68jf16F9yJ/Rbgbu+dLkvr4omMQkteAnnP F3Q04rZ8+0+Y+iXvER9iFg9N3z9ZFztEuua39m2xXHlSUMk+h47m38wjanxty8AECWYf DLwKKB8BRetOl9ISagoWJtpNCQM8W0JEuStZeELOsQegtjlEcu0RYMRAuccnc/wr2CJd koW4NS3ylsaa4PUOVTMghyNVBU6eDNAGzx/p3w460/F3s21kKugm5269oD2zZKNsW/U+ MZmZr3voXyYcWbywXiHUBZa25/8TiS87Cgr1PzFJj6CT9/EyL052JQJkW0YTO7mjPtGD Ggmg== X-Gm-Message-State: ANhLgQ3hdp1jJEcD9A2XjsTzqPDvDz91lbAQR2o0LrCUpzk6prTITJa7 BVcyzkd4zkNwWdRQ5me58QhF/JawT2/aXlXA7gI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADFU+vs7huZZcYQwMKylXWxHU4tNJXL1a5Fk34dcwsaG0fKzwWa023ZDGssfKnXqMRIglpFIjHgZLjfqY+RewtEz3r8= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:1413:: with SMTP id v19mr16114631otp.41.1585751945567; Wed, 01 Apr 2020 07:39:05 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <76A17445-AC2A-4F08-9B39-0A30BE58CFB4@mit.edu> In-Reply-To: <76A17445-AC2A-4F08-9B39-0A30BE58CFB4@mit.edu> From: Fabien Imbault Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 16:38:54 +0200 Message-ID: To: Justin Richer Cc: txauth@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006ae14a05a23ba59d" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Txauth] TxAuth at IETF-107, draft minutes X-BeenThere: txauth@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2020 14:39:08 -0000 --0000000000006ae14a05a23ba59d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks a lot for the clarification. Makes sense, I just saw the mergely document that clarifies that. Fabien Le mer. 1 avr. 2020 =C3=A0 16:28, Justin Richer a =C3=A9c= rit : > Getting that kind of understanding of scope is exactly why questions abou= t > identity were raised. People aren=E2=80=99t asking what =E2=80=9Cidentity= =E2=80=9D means in general > =E2=80=94 I don=E2=80=99t think there is an answer to that one =E2=80=94 = but rather what does > =E2=80=9Cidentity=E2=80=9D mean when it=E2=80=99s mentioned in the charte= r. Which is why I=E2=80=99ve > edited the charter text to more specifically talk about TxAuth carrying > identifiers and assertions. > > =E2=80=94 Justin > > > On Apr 1, 2020, at 5:47 AM, Fabien Imbault > wrote: > > > > Thanks for the minutes and recording. The XYZ and XAuth discussion was > interesting. > > > > I get the industry requirement to map the proposal to the existing > systems, this doesn't come as a surprise. > > However, when I see questions like "what is meant by identity?", I'm > kind of wondering whether the discussion is slowly shifting to abyssal op= en > items that can't be answered. > > > > From the outside, I get the impression this could significantly delay > practical work from being done. Maybe the focus should be on whether > there's something unacceptable in the current charter (I don't see any bu= t > maybe I'm missing something), and provide more detailed use cases on what > will be covered in the first iterations. > > > > Fabien > > -- > > Txauth mailing list > > Txauth@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth > > --0000000000006ae14a05a23ba59d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks a lot for the clarification.= Makes sense, I just saw the mergely document that clarifies that.=C2=A0
Fabien=C2=A0

Le mer. 1 a= vr. 2020 =C3=A0 16:28, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:
Getting that kind of understanding of scope is = exactly why questions about identity were raised. People aren=E2=80=99t ask= ing what =E2=80=9Cidentity=E2=80=9D means in general =E2=80=94 I don=E2=80= =99t think there is an answer to that one =E2=80=94 but rather what does = =E2=80=9Cidentity=E2=80=9D mean when it=E2=80=99s mentioned in the charter.= Which is why I=E2=80=99ve edited the charter text to more specifically tal= k about TxAuth carrying identifiers and assertions.

=C2=A0=E2=80=94 Justin

> On Apr 1, 2020, at 5:47 AM, Fabien Imbault <fabien.imbault@gm= ail.com> wrote:
>
> Thanks for the minutes and recording. The XYZ and XAuth discussion was= interesting.
>
> I get the industry requirement to map the proposal to the existing sys= tems, this doesn't come as a surprise.
> However, when I see questions like "what is meant by identity?&qu= ot;, I'm kind of wondering whether the discussion is slowly shifting to= abyssal open items that can't be answered.
>
> From the outside, I get the impression this could significantly delay = practical work from being done. Maybe the focus should be on whether there&= #39;s something unacceptable in the current charter (I don't see any bu= t maybe I'm missing something), and provide more detailed use cases on = what will be covered in the first iterations.
>
> Fabien
> --
> Txauth mailing list
> Txauth@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tx= auth

--0000000000006ae14a05a23ba59d-- From nobody Mon Apr 6 12:50:30 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: txauth@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: txauth@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6A253A0DD5 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 2020 12:50:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.888 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.888 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_FILL_THIS_FORM_SHORT=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sPnyYtsu6rVF for ; Mon, 6 Apr 2020 12:50:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from outgoing.mit.edu (outgoing-auth-1.mit.edu [18.9.28.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E509D3A0DD1 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 2020 12:50:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.13] (static-71-174-62-56.bstnma.fios.verizon.net [71.174.62.56]) (authenticated bits=0) (User authenticated as jricher@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) by outgoing.mit.edu (8.14.7/8.12.4) with ESMTP id 036JoOkF020034 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 6 Apr 2020 15:50:24 -0400 From: Justin Richer Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_8FBCC460-94A9-4733-847D-C25D26026515" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2020 15:50:23 -0400 References: <4320E483-B581-4D53-93DC-A99EE2ABBD79@amazon.com> <5580e7c4-bc78-c559-35ff-d7fcc07c046f@danielfett.de> <69D5A43F-C4B4-4795-82DE-27D9685728ED@mit.edu> To: txauth@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <69D5A43F-C4B4-4795-82DE-27D9685728ED@mit.edu> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Txauth] TxAuth Charter X-BeenThere: txauth@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2020 19:50:29 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_8FBCC460-94A9-4733-847D-C25D26026515 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I=E2=80=99ve added the line to cover the use of things like formal = analysis and other tools for spec development within the group that have = been brought up on the list. The new text is as follows: This group is chartered to develop a fine-grained delegation protocol = for authorization and API access, as well as requesting and providing = user identifiers and claims. This protocol will allow an authorizing = party to delegate access to client software through an authorization = server. It will expand upon the uses cases currently supported by OAuth = 2.0 and OpenID Connect (itself an extension of OAuth 2.0) to support = authorizations scoped as narrowly as a single transaction, provide a = clear framework for interaction among all parties involved in the = protocol flow, and remove unnecessary dependence on a browser or = user-agent for coordinating interactions.=20 The delegation process will be acted upon by multiple parties in the = protocol, each performing a specific role. The protocol will decouple = the interaction channels, such as the end user=E2=80=99s browser, from = the delegation channel, which happens directly between the client and = the authorization server (in contrast with OAuth 2.0 which is initiated = by the client redirecting the user=E2=80=99s browser). The client and AS = will involve a user to make an authorization decision as necessary = through interaction mechanisms indicated by the protocol. This = decoupling avoids many of the security concerns and technical challenges = of OAuth 2.0 and provides a non-invasive path for supporting future = types of clients and interaction channels. The group will define interoperability for this protocol between = different parties, including - client and authorization server; - client and resource server; and - authorization server and resource server. Additionally, the delegation process will allow for: - Fine-grained specification of access - Approval of AS attestation to identifiers and other identity claims - Approval of access to multiple resources and APIs in a single = interaction - Support for multiple access tokens in a single request and response - Support for directed, audience-restricted access tokens - Separation between the party authorizing access and the party = operating the client requesting access - A variety of client applications, including Web, mobile, single-page, = and interaction-constrained applications The group will define extension points for this protocol to allow for = flexibility in areas including: - Cryptographic agility for keys, message signatures, and proof of = possession=20 - User interaction mechanisms including web and non-web methods - Mechanisms for conveying user, software, organization, and other = pieces of information used in authorization decisions - Mechanisms for presenting tokens to resource servers and binding = resource requests to tokens and associated cryptographic keys - Optimized inclusion of additional information through the delegation = process (including identifiers and identity assertions) Additionally, the group will provide mechanisms for management of the = protocol lifecycle including: - Discovery of the authorization server - Revocation of active tokens - Mechanisms for the AS and RS to communicate the access granted by an = access token Although the artifacts for this work are not intended or expected to be = backwards-compatible with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, the group will = attempt to simplify migrating from OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect to the = new protocol where possible. This group is not chartered to develop extensions to OAuth 2.0, and as = such will focus on new technological solutions not necessarily = compatible with OAuth 2.0. Functionality that builds directly on OAuth = 2.0 will be developed in the OAuth Working Group, including = functionality back-ported from the protocol developed here to OAuth 2.0. The group is chartered to develop mechanisms for applying cryptographic = methods, such as JOSE and COSE, to the delegation process. This group is = not chartered to develop new cryptographic methods. The group is chartered to develop mechanisms for conveying identity = information within the protocol including identifiers (such as email = addresses, phone numbers, usernames, and subject identifiers) and = assertions (such as OpenID Connect ID Tokens, SAML Assertions, and = Verifiable Credentials). The group is not chartered to develop new = formats for identifiers or assertions, nor is the group chartered to = develop schemas for user information, profiles, or other identity = attributes, unless a viable existing format is not available.=20 The initial work will focus on using HTTP for communication between the = client and the authorization server, taking advantage of optimization = features of HTTP2 and HTTP3 where possible, and will strive to enable = simple mapping to other protocols such as COAP when doing so does not = conflict with the primary focus. Milestones to include: - Core delegation protocol - Key presentation mechanism bindings to the core protocol including = TLS, detached HTTP signature, and embedded HTTP signatures - Conveyance mechanisms for identifiers and assertions - Guidelines for use of protocol extension points Where possible, the group will seek to make use of tools to guide and = inform the standardization process including formal analysis, = architecture documents, and use case documents. These artifacts will not = be considered as working group milestones or deliverables. The diff link is http://www.mergely.com/RehoJJvW/?wl=3D1 = and the diff file is attached. = If there are not major objections to the updates (which there have not = been to the other changes), I would like to formally request that the = BoF chairs consider this text as the proposal for WG charter and call = for consensus on its adoption and submission to the IESG. Thanks to everyone who provided input and feedback! =E2=80=94 Justin --Apple-Mail=_8FBCC460-94A9-4733-847D-C25D26026515 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_BC5BE06D-8325-463F-A57A-0B124143D1EE" --Apple-Mail=_BC5BE06D-8325-463F-A57A-0B124143D1EE Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 I=E2=80=99ve added the line to cover the use of things like = formal analysis and other tools for spec development within the group = that have been brought up on the list. The new text is as follows:





This = group is chartered to develop a fine-grained delegation protocol for = authorization and API access, as well as requesting = and providing user identifiers and claims. This protocol will allow = an authorizing party to delegate access to client software through an = authorization server. It will expand upon the uses cases currently = supported by OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect (itself an extension of OAuth = 2.0) to support authorizations scoped as narrowly as a single = transaction, provide a clear framework for interaction among all parties = involved in the protocol flow, and remove unnecessary dependence on a = browser or user-agent for coordinating interactions. 

The delegation process will be acted upon by multiple = parties in the protocol, each performing a specific role. The protocol = will decouple the interaction channels, such as the end user=E2=80=99s = browser, from the delegation channel, which happens directly between the = client and the authorization server (in contrast with OAuth 2.0 which is = initiated by the client redirecting the user=E2=80=99s browser). The = client and AS will involve a user to make an authorization decision as = necessary through interaction mechanisms indicated by the protocol. This = decoupling avoids many of the security concerns and technical challenges = of OAuth 2.0 and provides a non-invasive path for supporting future = types of clients and interaction channels.

The group will define = interoperability for this protocol between different parties, = including
 - client and = authorization server;
 - = client and resource server; and
 - authorization server and resource = server.

Additionally, the delegation process will allow = for:

- = Fine-grained specification of access
- Approval of = AS attestation to identifiers and = other identity claims
- Approval of access = to multiple resources and APIs in a single interaction
- Support for multiple access tokens in a = single request and response
- = Support for directed, audience-restricted access tokens
- Separation between the party authorizing access and the = party operating the client requesting access
- A = variety of client applications, including Web, mobile, single-page, and = interaction-constrained applications

The group will define extension points = for this protocol to allow for flexibility in areas including:

- Cryptographic agility = for keys, message signatures, and proof of possession 
- User interaction mechanisms including web and non-web = methods
- Mechanisms for conveying user, software, = organization, and other pieces of information used in authorization = decisions
- Mechanisms for presenting tokens to = resource servers and binding resource requests to tokens and associated = cryptographic keys
- Optimized inclusion of = additional information through the delegation process (including identifiers and identity assertions)

Additionally, the group = will provide mechanisms for management of the protocol lifecycle = including:

- = Discovery of the authorization server
- Revocation = of active tokens
- Mechanisms for the = AS and RS to communicate the access granted by an access = token

Although the artifacts for this work are not intended or = expected to be backwards-compatible with OAuth 2.0 or OpenID Connect, = the group will attempt to simplify migrating from OAuth 2.0 and OpenID = Connect to the new protocol where possible.

This group is not chartered to develop = extensions to OAuth 2.0, and as such will focus on new technological = solutions not necessarily compatible with OAuth 2.0. Functionality that = builds directly on OAuth 2.0 will be developed in the OAuth Working = Group, including functionality back-ported from the protocol developed = here to OAuth 2.0.

The group is chartered to develop mechanisms for applying = cryptographic methods, such as JOSE and COSE, to the delegation process. = This group is not chartered to develop new cryptographic = methods.

The group is chartered to develop mechanisms for conveying = identity information within the protocol including identifiers (such as = email addresses, phone numbers, usernames, and subject identifiers) and = assertions (such as OpenID Connect ID Tokens, SAML Assertions, and = Verifiable Credentials). The group is not chartered to develop new = formats for identifiers or assertions, nor is the group chartered to = develop schemas for user information, profiles, or other identity = attributes, unless a viable existing format is not = available. 

The initial work will focus on using HTTP for communication = between the client and the authorization server, taking advantage of = optimization features of HTTP2 and HTTP3 where possible, and will strive = to enable simple mapping to other protocols such as COAP when doing so = does not conflict with the primary focus.

Milestones to include:
- Core delegation protocol
- Key = presentation mechanism bindings to the core protocol including TLS, detached HTTP signature, and embedded = HTTP signatures
- Conveyance = mechanisms for identifiers and assertions
- = Guidelines for use of protocol extension points

Where = possible, the group will seek to make use of tools to guide and inform = the standardization process including formal analysis, architecture = documents, and use case documents. These artifacts will not be = considered as working group milestones or deliverables.




The = diff link is http://www.mergely.com/RehoJJvW/?wl=3D1 and the diff = file is attached. If there are not major objections to the updates = (which there have not been to the other changes), I would like to = formally request that the BoF chairs consider this text as the proposal = for WG charter and call for consensus on its adoption and submission to = the IESG.

Thanks= to everyone who provided input and feedback!
 =E2=80=94 Justin

= --Apple-Mail=_BC5BE06D-8325-463F-A57A-0B124143D1EE Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="RehoJJvW(5).diff" Content-Type: application/octet-stream; x-unix-mode=0644; name="RehoJJvW(5).diff" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 1c1 < This group is chartered to develop a fine-grained delegation protocol for authorization, identity, and API access. This protocol will allow an authorizing party to delegate access to client software through an authorization server. It will expand upon the uses cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect (itself an extension of OAuth 2.0) to support authorizations scoped as narrowly as a single transaction, provide a clear framework for interaction among all parties involved in the protocol flow, and remove unnecessary dependence on a browser or user-agent for coordinating interactions. --- > This group is chartered to develop a fine-grained delegation protocol for authorization and API access, as well as requesting and providing user identifiers and claims. This protocol will allow an authorizing party to delegate access to client software through an authorization server. It will expand upon the uses cases currently supported by OAuth 2.0 and OpenID Connect (itself an extension of OAuth 2.0) to support authorizations scoped as narrowly as a single transaction, provide a clear framework for interaction among all parties involved in the protocol flow, and remove unnecessary dependence on a browser or user-agent for coordinating interactions. 4a5,9 > The group will define interoperability for this protocol between different parties, including > - client and authorization server; > - client and resource server; and > - authorization server and resource server. > 8c13 < - Approval of AS attestation to identity claims --- > - Approval of AS attestation to identifiers and other identity claims 9a15,16 > - Support for multiple access tokens in a single request and response > - Support for directed, audience-restricted access tokens 19c26 < - Optimized inclusion of additional information through the delegation process (including identity) --- > - Optimized inclusion of additional information through the delegation process (including identifiers and identity assertions) 25c32 < - Query of token rights by resource servers --- > - Mechanisms for the AS and RS to communicate the access granted by an access token 32a40,41 > The group is chartered to develop mechanisms for conveying identity information within the protocol including identifiers (such as email addresses, phone numbers, usernames, and subject identifiers) and assertions (such as OpenID Connect ID Tokens, SAML Assertions, and Verifiable Credentials). The group is not chartered to develop new formats for identifiers or assertions, nor is the group chartered to develop schemas for user information, profiles, or other identity attributes, unless a viable existing format is not available. > 37,38c46,47 < - Key presentation mechanism bindings to the core protocol for TLS, detached HTTP signature, and embedded HTTP signatures < - Identity and authentication conveyance mechanisms --- > - Key presentation mechanism bindings to the core protocol including TLS, detached HTTP signature, and embedded HTTP signatures > - Conveyance mechanisms for identifiers and assertions 40a50,51 > Where possible, the group will seek to make use of tools to guide and inform the standardization process including formal analysis, architecture documents, and use case documents. These artifacts will not be considered as working group milestones or deliverables. > --Apple-Mail=_BC5BE06D-8325-463F-A57A-0B124143D1EE Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
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ZWxldGUgdGhpcyBlbWFpbCBhbmQgaXRzIGF0dGFjaG1lbnRzLg0K From nobody Fri Apr 10 06:23:11 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: txauth@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: txauth@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 982963A09A9 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 06:23:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vYP1oLTC_eJM for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 06:23:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-il1-x12b.google.com (mail-il1-x12b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 237633A09AA for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 06:23:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-il1-x12b.google.com with SMTP id o11so1789171ilq.7 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 2020 06:23:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=zIE8wf/fYrYFw1x1DptmpCLW2zLWvQ4dtgH1XEDDpl4=; b=sP6BPvq+qRt3tnqgdQZ3ZQnmoZx8RyrYRtqcbSgVfJWa9R2gTQzYEOdiHhxq7S3dD1 rG2lvM4pisylpUt+6ldJfo/r/RFGMtygO3nZfDMiL1JhGya7sZHolBH9PFeUQkcWjdSc Nf4mYGpEpietxfemmDGhTgdE13+Q3F8a2e2qIM+XehKBkGU8NdIspJmdNiCLoTVtkmCL USnM9ZkPKdGacaakxxQITrHxjEYi5hcsyRW6/bNbeYH7wYmyfjCdqRy2mLW0btSvElQM zI9gdWKWPrBbqSMWJN+YRXVCJVQy/2LDwBL01mvGfpfrTra2J14QIZqwOMaI0h6L/vIs SrwA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; 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In-Reply-To: From: Vijay IETF Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 18:52:54 +0530 Message-ID: To: Amanjeev Sethi Cc: Lee McGovern , "Matthew A. Miller" , "txauth@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002bc80405a2efa224" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Txauth] WG name: TxAuth? XAuth? Something else? X-BeenThere: txauth@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 13:23:11 -0000 --0000000000002bc80405a2efa224 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Assuming we are still at it... NgAuth (Next Gen Auth). On Tue, 24 Mar 2020 at 19:00, Amanjeev Sethi wrote: > TOI (as in french you): TxAuth's OAuth's Improvement > > On Tue, Mar 24, 2020, at 4:25 AM, Lee McGovern wrote: > > YAAP > > > > Yet another authX protocol > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Txauth On Behalf Of Matthew A. Miller > > Sent: Monday, March 23, 2020 3:06 PM > > To: txauth@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [Txauth] WG name: TxAuth? XAuth? Something else? > > > > On 20/03/23 13:49, Brian Campbell wrote: > > > YAAAAS - Yet Another Authorization And Authentication Specification > > > > > > > +1 > > > > > > - m&m > > > > Matthew A. Miller > > > > > On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 1:39 PM Mike Jones > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > In brainstorming mode=E2=80=A6____ > > > > > > * Disaggregated Authorization (DisAuth)____ > > > * Componentized Authorization (CompAuth)____ > > > * Build-Your-Own Authorization (BYOAuth)____ > > > * Do-It-Yourself Authorization (DIYAuth)____ > > > * Refactored Authorization (ReAuth or RefAuth)____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > And for fun=E2=80=A6____ > > > > > > * Dismembered Authorization____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > -- Mike___= _ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > *From:* Txauth > > > *On Behalf Of *David Skaife > > > *Sent:* Saturday, March 21, 2020 11:22 AM > > > *To:* Justin Richer > > > > *Cc:* Yaron Sheffer > > >; txauth@ietf.org > > > ; Dick Hardt > > > > > > *Subject:* Re: [Txauth] WG name: TxAuth? XAuth? Something > > > else?____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > I think we're saying the same thing with regards to the working > > > group name - I was saying it *isn't* particularly important in > > > comparison to the name of the protocol (which obviously is very > > > important).____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 6:18 PM Justin Richer > > > wrote:____ > > > > > > I disagree on the working group name being super important. > > > Nobody knows that the OAuth WG is actually named =E2=80=9CThe= Web > > > Authorization Protocol Working Group=E2=80=9D, and nobody car= es.____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > My proposal is that we name the protocol we work on =E2=80=9C= TxAuth=E2=80=9D > > > (and keep the mailing list), and that we name the working gro= up > > > something like =E2=80=9CNext Generation Web Authorization Pro= tocol=E2=80=9D to > > > say what we=E2=80=99re doing.____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > -- Justin____ > > > > > > > > > > > > ____ > > > > > > On Mar 21, 2020, at 2:08 PM, David Skaife > > > > > > wrote:____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > Just to throw in another suggestion, to address Yaron's > > > point about some people mistakenly thinking that "Auth" > > > stands for authentication rather than authorization, how > > > about naming the working group *AuthZ*____ > > > > > > Nice and simple, and it makes it clear what the group is > > > focused on. > > > > > > I think the name of the actual protocol that we produce i= s > > > far, far more important that the name of the working grou= p > - > > > and the name of that protocol doesn't need to correlate t= o > > > the WG name. Also, we have much more time before we need = to > > > decide on the name of that protocol, even if the > > > initial draft documents that we produce end up using a > > > placeholder name.____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 5:44 PM Justin Richer > > > > wrote:____ > > > > > > As you can see in the email you replied to, that is n= ot > > > even close to what I said. I believe it is a > > > transaction, and therefore, I do not agree that it=E2= =80=99s > not > > > a transaction.____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > But if we take =E2=80=9CTransactional=E2=80=9D out of= the WG title, I > > > won=E2=80=99t be offended. If we just call it =E2=80= =9CTxAuth=E2=80=9D without > > > expansion, then that=E2=80=99s fine.____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > I do not like calling it =E2=80=9CXAuth=E2=80=9D. The= term =E2=80=9CTAuth" was > > > floated during naming the list, but rejected because > > > (among other reasons) it would likely be awkwardly > > > pronounced as =E2=80=9Ctowth=E2=80=9D or something. T= xAuth reads as > =E2=80=9CTee > > > - ex - oth=E2=80=9D more naturally, which was the int= ent. ____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > So how about we take a page from the OAuth working > group > > > and name it:____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > TxAuth - Next Generation Web Authorization Protocol > > > Working Group____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > =E2=80=94 Justin____ > > > > > > > > > > > > ____ > > > > > > On Mar 21, 2020, at 1:15 PM, Dick Hardt > > > >> > > > wrote:____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > To clarify -- you agree it is not a transaction, > and > > > we will take the word transaction out of the WG > > > title?____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 5:53 PM Justin Richer > > > > > > > wrote:____ > > > > > > Dick, thanks for pulling the definitions > > > up:____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > > a communicative action or activity involvin= g > > > two parties or things that reciprocally affec= t > > > or influence each other____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > This is the kind of thing that I had in mind. > > > The client and the AS are in a conversation > over > > > time that each one contributes to and each > > > changes. ____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > Also =E2=80=94 we can just as easily decide t= hat > > > =E2=80=9CTxAuth=E2=80=9D doesn=E2=80=99t stan= d for =E2=80=9CTransactional Auth=E2=80=9D > > > much the same way we decided that the =E2=80= =9CO=E2=80=9D in > > > =E2=80=9COAuth=E2=80=9D doesn=E2=80=99t stand= for =E2=80=9COpen=E2=80=9D anymore. ____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > None of the arguments below in favor of XAuth > > > have made me like that name better. If it=E2= =80=99s > just > > > a =E2=80=9Cplaceholder=E2=80=9D name, then wh= y come up with > > > something new?____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > =E2=80=94 Justin____ > > > > > > > > > > > > ____ > > > > > > On Mar 20, 2020, at 3:32 PM, Dick Hardt > > > > > > wrote:____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > not a transaction - there are multiple > > > transactions____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > backchannel innovation is combination of > > > here is who I am, and here is what I want > to > > > do____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > childhood trauma therapy group____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 6:56 PM Justin > > > Richer > > > wrote:____ > > > > > > Yes, naming things is hard =E2=80=94 = but I > still > > > believe in the name TxAuth. We=E2=80= =99re > moving > > > beyond OAuth, and taking the process = of > > > getting an authorization delegated to > > > the client software as a multi-step, > > > multi-party transaction is, I believe= , > > > the key insight that=E2=80=99s lettin= g us move > > > beyond OAuth=E2=80=99s limitations he= re. It=E2=80=99s > > > not just about going to the AS first = =E2=80=94 > > > we had that in OAuth 1 and we=E2=80= =99re > > > patching that into OAuth 2 with PAR..= I > > > really think it=E2=80=99s about the t= ransaction > > > at the core.. ____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > OAuth 2.0 had multi-step, multi-party. > > > TxAuth extends that.____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > I think the big shift is going to the AS. > > > This enables the request to be richer wit= h > > > JSON, instead of name/value pairs > parameters > > > in a URI. It allows the client and AS to > > > negotiate, and to short circuit having to > > > redirect the user to the AS. PAR does som= e > > > of this, but it is constrained by having = to > > > do it in the OAuth 2.0 context.____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > My concern is that the protocol is MUCH > MORE > > > than a transaction. While the initial > > > interaction between client, AS, user and = RO > > > is a transaction. The protocol also cover= s > > > the client and RS interactions. The acces= s > > > token refreshes. Access token revocation. > > > Access token introspection. As described = in > > > the charter, there is a whole lifecycle, > > > that consists of multiple > > > transactions.____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > From > > > https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transaction:____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > > > > Definition of /transaction/____ > > > > > > *1a**: *something transacted > > > < > https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transacted>/especially/ *: *an > > > exchange or transfer > > > < > https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transfer> of > > > goods, services, or > > > fundselectronic /transactions/____ > > > > > > *b: transactions*/ plural/ *: *the often > > > published record of the meeting of a > society > > > or association____ > > > > > > *2a**: *an act, process, or instance > > > of transacting > > > > > > ____ > > > > > > *b**: *a communicative action or activity > > > involving two parties or things that > > > reciprocally affect or influence each > > > other____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > Calling the protocol a transaction will > > > confusing to people.____ > > > > > > ____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > Having come of age in the 1990=E2=80= =99s, I > have > > > particular dislike for XAuth. It soun= ds > > > too =E2=80=9CX-TREME=E2=80=9D and =E2= =80=9CX-CITING=E2=80=9D, and if > you > > > read either of those with a growling > > > yell in your head then you know exact= ly > > > what I=E2=80=99m talking about.____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > In case you are confused, this is not a > > > childhood trauma support group. :)____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > Unlike "X-TREME" or "X-CITING", XAuth is > > > using the "X" as a placeholder. X-Men, > Xbox, > > > X-Factor, X-files. ____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > > > > https://www.businessinsider.com/the-indisputable-power-of-brand-x-201= 2 > > > -4____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > > > > https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/358181/whats-the-purpose-= o > > > f-using-letter-x-or-x-as-a-suffix-in-brand-names____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > ____ > > > > > > And to Dick=E2=80=99s rationale for t= he name > > > below, I absolutely do NOT see this > work > > > as =E2=80=9COAuth with all the extra = features=E2=80=9D. > > > I think that does a disservice to the > > > kind of change we have an opportunity > to > > > make here. ____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > From the charter ____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > "It will expand upon the uses cases > > > currently supported by OAuth 2.0 and > > > OpenID Connect (itself an extension o= f > > > OAuth 2.0)"____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > Which sounds pretty similar to =E2=80=9CO= Auth with > > > all the extra features=E2=80=9D____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > While I think XAuth captures what we are > > > doing, a placeholder name would be > > > preferable to an incorrect descriptive na= me > > > such as TxAuth.____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > For example, XYZ is a good placeholder > name. > > > Or XYZAuth. Let's not mislead people.____ > > > > > > ____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > =E2=80=94 Justin____ > > > > > > > > > > > > ____ > > > > > > On Mar 16, 2020, at 7:04 PM, Dick > > > Hardt > > > > > > wrote:____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > Hello everyone____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > I prompted a thread around the na= me > > > of the protocol a while back:____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > > > > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/txauth/ZVQVbHt4ADqehKrBDXOrTr_s= _ > > > wc/____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > As Justin stated "naming is > > > hard"____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > Wearing my marketing hat I want t= o > > > ensure that the name will be > > > perceived properly in the broader > > > community.____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > A recent example that comes to mi= nd > > > are the privacy related works on > the > > > browser storage API. Given that > > > name, one would think that it is > > > local storage. It is actually abo= ut > > > browser cookies.____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > Justin discussed his reasons for > > > TxAuth in the thread above (and I= 'm > > > sure in other places)____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > I chose XAuth in my draft to > reflect > > > the eXtensibility goal that we ha= ve > > > over OAuth -- and XAuth is OAuth > but > > > with an X to reflect all the extr= a > > > features. =3D)____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > Other suggestions?____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > This will be an agenda item in th= e > > > BoF -- but the name will NOT be a= n > > > open discussion item -- we will > > > summarize what has been discussed > on > > > the list and perhaps do a poll of > > > options presented unless consensu= s > > > is obvious from this thread.____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > /Dick____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > =E1=90=A7____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > -- > > > Txauth mailing list > > > Txauth@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > -- > > > Txauth mailing list > > > Txauth@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Ping Identity < > https://www.pingidentity.com> > > > Brian Campbell > > > Distinguished Engineer > > > bcampbell@pingidentity.com > > > w: +1 720.317.2061 > > > c: +1 303.918..9415 > > > > > > Connect with us: Glassdoor logo > > > > > 07.11,24.htm> LinkedIn logo > > > twitter logo > > > facebook logo > > > youtube logo > > > Blog logo > > > > > > > > > > > /ping-6-2-assets/Assets/faqs/en/consumer-attitudes-post-breach-era-33= 7 > > > 5.pdf?id%3Db6322a80-f285-11e3-ac10-0800200c9a66&source=3Dgmail&ust=3D= 15416 > > > 93608526000&usg=3DAFQjCNGBl5cPHCUAVKGZ_NnpuFj5PHGSUQ> > > entity.com/en/events/d/identify-2019.html> > > m/content/dam/ping-6-2-assets/Assets/Misc/en/3464-consumersurvey-exec= s > > > ummary.pdf> > > /www.pingidentity.com/en/events/e/rsa.html> > > om/en/lp/e/enabling-work-from-home-with-MFA.html> > > > > > > /If you=E2=80=99re not a current customer, click here > > > > > source=3DEmail&utm_campaign=3DWF-COVID19-New-EMSIG> for a more releva= nt > > > offer./ > > > > > > /CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email may contain confidential and > > > privileged material for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). An= y > > > review, use, distribution or disclosure by others is strictly > > > prohibited.. If you have received this communication in error, pleas= e > > > notify the sender immediately by e-mail and delete the message and an= y > > > file attachments from your computer. Thank you./ > > > > > > > -- > > Txauth mailing list > > Txauth@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth > > > > > > This e-mail, including attachments, is intended for the person(s) or > > company named and may contain confidential and/or legally privileged > > information. > > > > Unauthorized disclosure, copying or use of this information may be > > unlawful and is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, > > please delete this message and notify the sender. > > All incoming and outgoing e-mail messages are stored in the Swiss Re > > Electronic Message Repository. > > If you do not wish the retention of potentially private e-mails by > > Swiss Re, we strongly advise you not to use the Swiss Re e-mail account > > for any private, non-business related communications. > > -- > > Txauth mailing list > > Txauth@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth > > > > -- > Txauth mailing list > Txauth@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth > --0000000000002bc80405a2efa224 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 PGRpdiBkaXI9Imx0ciI+QXNzdW1pbmcgd2UgYXJlIHN0aWxsIGF0IGl0Li4uPGRpdj48YnI+PC9k aXY+PGRpdj5OZ0F1dGggKE5leHQgR2VuIEF1dGgpLjwvZGl2PjwvZGl2Pjxicj48ZGl2IGNsYXNz PSJnbWFpbF9xdW90ZSI+PGRpdiBkaXI9Imx0ciIgY2xhc3M9ImdtYWlsX2F0dHIiPk9uIFR1ZSwg 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score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pLGzOw0Rygzr for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 11:43:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from outgoing.mit.edu (outgoing-auth-1.mit.edu [18.9.28.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A38C93A1BD1 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 11:43:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.13] (static-71-174-62-56.bstnma.fios.verizon.net [71.174.62.56]) (authenticated bits=0) (User authenticated as jricher@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) by outgoing.mit.edu (8.14.7/8.12.4) with ESMTP id 03DIgxQX015975 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Mon, 13 Apr 2020 14:43:00 -0400 From: Justin Richer Message-Id: <475762FD-D73A-4850-95A6-F9E130BA8CFE@mit.edu> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_0F87505A-95FE-4292-B804-C1FD11B0C1A7" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 14:42:59 -0400 In-Reply-To: Cc: Amanjeev Sethi , Lee McGovern , "Matthew A. Miller" , "txauth@ietf.org" To: Vijay IETF References: <2ebd1c3e4b844a8195649cf83546b749@CHRP5009.corp.gwpnet.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Txauth] WG name: TxAuth? XAuth? Something else? X-BeenThere: txauth@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 18:43:13 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_0F87505A-95FE-4292-B804-C1FD11B0C1A7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I appreciate the brainstorming of names here.=20 I dislike names like =E2=80=9CNgAuth=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9CYAAP=E2=80=9D = or the like because they rely on this being =E2=80=9Cnew=E2=80=9D and = it=E2=80=99s only =E2=80=9Cnew=E2=80=9D right now. If we=E2=80=99re = successful and people are still talking about it in ten years then it = won=E2=80=99t be new anymore and the name will just seem absurd.=20 While we=E2=80=99re at it, we really can=E2=80=99t use =E2=80=9CXAuth=E2=80= =9D because it=E2=80=99s already been something for 30 years: the X11 = authentication command: = https://www.x.org/archive/X11R6.8.1/doc/xauth.1.html = My project=E2=80=99s name =E2=80=9CXYZ=E2=80=9D would also be a bad name = for a lasting protocol, as it=E2=80=99s too generic on its own.=20 I still argue that we should call the protocol and the working group = TxAuth. Not only do I think the underlying =E2=80=9Ctransactional = authorization=E2=80=9D aspect is a key difference from what=E2=80=99s = come before (the nature of which I=E2=80=99ve described many, many times = on this list), if you go and search for the term =E2=80=9Ctxauth=E2=80=9D = you end up back at this mailing list and the posts that people have made = about it.=20 =E2=80=94 Justin > On Apr 10, 2020, at 9:22 AM, Vijay IETF wrote: >=20 > Assuming we are still at it... >=20 > NgAuth (Next Gen Auth). >=20 > On Tue, 24 Mar 2020 at 19:00, Amanjeev Sethi > wrote: > TOI (as in french you): TxAuth's OAuth's Improvement >=20 > On Tue, Mar 24, 2020, at 4:25 AM, Lee McGovern wrote: > > YAAP=20 > >=20 > > Yet another authX protocol > >=20 > >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Txauth > On Behalf Of Matthew A. Miller > > Sent: Monday, March 23, 2020 3:06 PM > > To: txauth@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [Txauth] WG name: TxAuth? XAuth? Something else? > >=20 > > On 20/03/23 13:49, Brian Campbell wrote: > > > YAAAAS - Yet Another Authorization And Authentication = Specification > > >=20 > >=20 > > +1 > >=20 > >=20 > > - m&m > >=20 > > Matthew A. Miller > >=20 > > > On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 1:39 PM Mike Jones=20 > > > > > > >> wrote: > > >=20 > > > In brainstorming mode=E2=80=A6____ > > >=20 > > > * Disaggregated Authorization (DisAuth)____ > > > * Componentized Authorization (CompAuth)____ > > > * Build-Your-Own Authorization (BYOAuth)____ > > > * Do-It-Yourself Authorization (DIYAuth)____ > > > * Refactored Authorization (ReAuth or RefAuth)____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > And for fun=E2=80=A6____ > > >=20 > > > * Dismembered Authorization____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > -- = Mike____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > *From:* Txauth > > > >> *On Behalf Of *David Skaife > > > *Sent:* Saturday, March 21, 2020 11:22 AM > > > *To:* Justin Richer = >> > > > *Cc:* Yaron Sheffer > > > >>; txauth@ietf.org = > > > >; Dick Hardt = > > > >> > > > *Subject:* Re: [Txauth] WG name: TxAuth? XAuth? Something=20 > > > else?____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > I think we're saying the same thing with regards to the = working > > > group name - I was saying it *isn't* particularly important in > > > comparison to the name of the protocol (which obviously is = very > > > important).____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 6:18 PM Justin Richer > > > >> wrote:____ > > >=20 > > > I disagree on the working group name being super = important. > > > Nobody knows that the OAuth WG is actually named =E2=80=9CTh= e Web > > > Authorization Protocol Working Group=E2=80=9D, and nobody = cares.____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > My proposal is that we name the protocol we work on = =E2=80=9CTxAuth=E2=80=9D > > > (and keep the mailing list), and that we name the working = group > > > something like =E2=80=9CNext Generation Web Authorization = Protocol=E2=80=9D to > > > say what we=E2=80=99re doing.____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > -- Justin____ > > >=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > ____ > > >=20 > > > On Mar 21, 2020, at 2:08 PM, David Skaife > > > > > > >> wrote:____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > Just to throw in another suggestion, to address = Yaron's > > > point about some people mistakenly thinking that = "Auth" > > > stands for authentication rather than authorization, = how > > > about naming the working group *AuthZ*____ > > >=20 > > > Nice and simple, and it makes it clear what the group = is > > > focused on. > > >=20 > > > I think the name of the actual protocol that we = produce is > > > far, far more important that the name of the working = group - > > > and the name of that protocol doesn't need to = correlate to > > > the WG name. Also, we have much more time before we = need to > > > decide on the name of that protocol, even if the > > > initial draft documents that we produce end up using a > > > placeholder name.____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 5:44 PM Justin Richer > > > = >> wrote:____ > > >=20 > > > As you can see in the email you replied to, that = is not > > > even close to what I said. I believe it is a > > > transaction, and therefore, I do not agree that = it=E2=80=99s not > > > a transaction.____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > But if we take =E2=80=9CTransactional=E2=80=9D out = of the WG title, I > > > won=E2=80=99t be offended. If we just call it = =E2=80=9CTxAuth=E2=80=9D without > > > expansion, then that=E2=80=99s fine.____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > I do not like calling it =E2=80=9CXAuth=E2=80=9D. = The term =E2=80=9CTAuth" was > > > floated during naming the list, but rejected = because > > > (among other reasons) it would likely be awkwardly > > > pronounced as =E2=80=9Ctowth=E2=80=9D or = something. TxAuth reads as =E2=80=9CTee > > > - ex - oth=E2=80=9D more naturally, which was the = intent. ____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > So how about we take a page from the OAuth working = group > > > and name it:____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > TxAuth - Next Generation Web Authorization = Protocol > > > Working Group____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > =E2=80=94 Justin____ > > >=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > ____ > > >=20 > > > On Mar 21, 2020, at 1:15 PM, Dick Hardt > > > >> > > > wrote:____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > To clarify -- you agree it is not a = transaction, and > > > we will take the word transaction out of the = WG > > > title?____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 5:53 PM Justin Richer > > > = >>=20 > > > wrote:____ > > >=20 > > > Dick, thanks for pulling the definitions=20= > > > up:____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > > a communicative action or activity = involving > > > two parties or things that reciprocally = affect > > > or influence each other____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > This is the kind of thing that I had in = mind. > > > The client and the AS are in a = conversation over > > > time that each one contributes to and each > > > changes. ____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > Also =E2=80=94 we can just as easily = decide that > > > =E2=80=9CTxAuth=E2=80=9D doesn=E2=80=99t = stand for =E2=80=9CTransactional Auth=E2=80=9D > > > much the same way we decided that the = =E2=80=9CO=E2=80=9D in > > > =E2=80=9COAuth=E2=80=9D doesn=E2=80=99t = stand for =E2=80=9COpen=E2=80=9D anymore. ____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > None of the arguments below in favor of = XAuth > > > have made me like that name better. If = it=E2=80=99s just > > > a =E2=80=9Cplaceholder=E2=80=9D name, then = why come up with > > > something new?____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > =E2=80=94 Justin____ > > >=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > ____ > > >=20 > > > On Mar 20, 2020, at 3:32 PM, Dick = Hardt > > > > > > >> wrote:____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > not a transaction - there are multiple > > > transactions____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > backchannel innovation is combination = of > > > here is who I am, and here is what I = want to > > > do____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > childhood trauma therapy group____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 6:56 PM Justin > > > Richer > > > >> wrote:____ > > >=20 > > > Yes, naming things is hard =E2=80=94= but I still > > > believe in the name TxAuth. = We=E2=80=99re moving > > > beyond OAuth, and taking the = process of > > > getting an authorization delegated = to > > > the client software as a = multi-step, > > > multi-party transaction is, I = believe, > > > the key insight that=E2=80=99s = letting us move > > > beyond OAuth=E2=80=99s limitations = here. It=E2=80=99s > > > not just about going to the AS = first =E2=80=94 > > > we had that in OAuth 1 and we=E2=80=99= re > > > patching that into OAuth 2 with = PAR.. I > > > really think it=E2=80=99s about = the transaction > > > at the core.. ____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > OAuth 2.0 had multi-step, multi-party. > > > TxAuth extends that.____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > I think the big shift is going to the = AS. > > > This enables the request to be richer = with > > > JSON, instead of name/value pairs = parameters > > > in a URI. It allows the client and AS = to > > > negotiate, and to short circuit having = to > > > redirect the user to the AS. PAR does = some > > > of this, but it is constrained by = having to > > > do it in the OAuth 2.0 context.____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > My concern is that the protocol is = MUCH MORE > > > than a transaction. While the initial > > > interaction between client, AS, user = and RO > > > is a transaction. The protocol also = covers > > > the client and RS interactions. The = access > > > token refreshes. Access token = revocation. > > > Access token introspection. As = described in > > > the charter, there is a whole = lifecycle, > > > that consists of multiple=20 > > > transactions.____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > From > > > https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transaction:____ = > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > Definition of /transaction/____ > > >=20 > > > *1a**: *something transacted > > > = >/especially/ *: = *an > > > exchange or transfer > > > = > of > > > goods, services, or > > > fundselectronic /transactions/____ > > >=20 > > > *b: transactions*/ plural/ *: *the = often > > > published record of the meeting of a = society > > > or association____ > > >=20 > > > *2a**: *an act, process, or instance > > > of transacting > > > =20 > > > >____ > > >=20 > > > *b**: *a communicative action or = activity > > > involving two parties or things that > > > reciprocally affect or influence each=20= > > > other____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > Calling the protocol a transaction = will > > > confusing to people.____ > > >=20 > > > ____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > Having come of age in the = 1990=E2=80=99s, I have > > > particular dislike for XAuth. It = sounds > > > too =E2=80=9CX-TREME=E2=80=9D and = =E2=80=9CX-CITING=E2=80=9D, and if you > > > read either of those with a = growling > > > yell in your head then you know = exactly > > > what I=E2=80=99m talking = about.____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > In case you are confused, this is not = a > > > childhood trauma support group. = :)____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > Unlike "X-TREME" or "X-CITING", XAuth = is > > > using the "X" as a placeholder. X-Men, = Xbox, > > > X-Factor, X-files. ____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > =20 > > > = https://www.businessinsider.com/the-indisputable-power-of-brand-x-2012 = > > > -4____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > =20 > > > = https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/358181/whats-the-purpose-o = > > > f-using-letter-x-or-x-as-a-suffix-in-brand-names____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > ____ > > >=20 > > > And to Dick=E2=80=99s rationale = for the name > > > below, I absolutely do NOT see = this work > > > as =E2=80=9COAuth with all the = extra features=E2=80=9D. > > > I think that does a disservice to = the > > > kind of change we have an = opportunity to > > > make here. ____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > =46rom the charter ____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > "It will expand upon the uses = cases > > > currently supported by OAuth 2.0 = and > > > OpenID Connect (itself an = extension of > > > OAuth 2.0)"____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > Which sounds pretty similar to = =E2=80=9COAuth with > > > all the extra features=E2=80=9D____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > While I think XAuth captures what we = are > > > doing, a placeholder name would be > > > preferable to an incorrect descriptive = name > > > such as TxAuth.____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > For example, XYZ is a good placeholder = name. > > > Or XYZAuth. Let's not mislead = people.____ > > >=20 > > > ____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > =E2=80=94 Justin____ > > >=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > ____ > > >=20 > > > On Mar 16, 2020, at 7:04 PM, = Dick > > > Hardt > > > >> > > > wrote:____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > Hello everyone____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > I prompted a thread around the = name > > > of the protocol a while = back:____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > =20 > > > = https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/txauth/ZVQVbHt4ADqehKrBDXOrTr_s_ = > > > wc/____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > As Justin stated "naming is=20 > > > hard"____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > Wearing my marketing hat I = want to > > > ensure that the name will be > > > perceived properly in the = broader > > > community.____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > A recent example that comes to = mind > > > are the privacy related works = on the > > > browser storage API. Given = that > > > name, one would think that it = is > > > local storage. It is actually = about > > > browser cookies.____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > Justin discussed his reasons = for > > > TxAuth in the thread above = (and I'm > > > sure in other places)____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > I chose XAuth in my draft to = reflect > > > the eXtensibility goal that we = have > > > over OAuth -- and XAuth is = OAuth but > > > with an X to reflect all the = extra > > > features. =3D)____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > Other suggestions?____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > This will be an agenda item in = the > > > BoF -- but the name will NOT = be an > > > open discussion item -- we = will > > > summarize what has been = discussed on > > > the list and perhaps do a poll = of > > > options presented unless = consensus > > > is obvious from this = thread.____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > /Dick____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > =E1=90=A7____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > --=20 > > > Txauth mailing list > > > Txauth@ietf.org = > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth____ = > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > --=20 > > > Txauth mailing list > > > Txauth@ietf.org = > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth = > > >=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > --=20 > > > >Ping = Identity > = =20 > > > Brian Campbell =20 > > > Distinguished Engineer =20 > > > bcampbell@pingidentity.com = > = =20 > > > w: +1 720.317.2061 =20 > > > c: +1 303.918..9415=20 > > >=20 > > > Connect with us: Glassdoor logo > > > = > > > 07.11,24.htm> LinkedIn logo = > > > > twitter logo > > > > facebook logo > > > > youtube logo > > > > Blog logo > > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > = > > > = /ping-6-2-assets/Assets/faqs/en/consumer-attitudes-post-breach-era-337 > > > = 5.pdf?id%3Db6322a80-f285-11e3-ac10-0800200c9a66&source=3Dgmail&ust=3D15416= > > > = 93608526000&usg=3DAFQjCNGBl5cPHCUAVKGZ_NnpuFj5PHGSUQ> > > > entity.com/en/events/d/identify-2019.html = > > > > = m/content/dam/ping-6-2-assets/Assets/Misc/en/3464-consumersurvey-execs > > > ummary.pdf>> > > /www.pingidentity.com/en/events/e/rsa.html = > > > > om/en/lp/e/enabling-work-from-home-with-MFA.html> > > >=20 > > > /If you=E2=80=99re not a current customer, click here=20 > > > = > > > source=3DEmail&utm_campaign=3DWF-COVID19-New-EMSIG> for a more = relevant=20 > > > offer./ > > >=20 > > > /CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email may contain confidential and=20= > > > privileged material for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). = Any=20 > > > review, use, distribution or disclosure by others is strictly=20 > > > prohibited.. If you have received this communication in error, = please=20 > > > notify the sender immediately by e-mail and delete the message and = any=20 > > > file attachments from your computer. Thank you./ > > >=20 > >=20 > > -- > > Txauth mailing list > > Txauth@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth = > >=20 > >=20 > > This e-mail, including attachments, is intended for the person(s) or=20= > > company named and may contain confidential and/or legally privileged=20= > > information. > >=20 > > Unauthorized disclosure, copying or use of this information may be=20= > > unlawful and is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient,=20= > > please delete this message and notify the sender. > > All incoming and outgoing e-mail messages are stored in the Swiss Re=20= > > Electronic Message Repository. > > If you do not wish the retention of potentially private e-mails by=20= > > Swiss Re, we strongly advise you not to use the Swiss Re e-mail = account=20 > > for any private, non-business related communications. > > --=20 > > Txauth mailing list > > Txauth@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth = > > >=20 > --=20 > Txauth mailing list > Txauth@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth = > --=20 > Txauth mailing list > Txauth@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth --Apple-Mail=_0F87505A-95FE-4292-B804-C1FD11B0C1A7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 I = appreciate the brainstorming of names here. 

I dislike names like =E2=80=9CNgAuth=E2=80= =9D or =E2=80=9CYAAP=E2=80=9D or the like because they rely on this = being =E2=80=9Cnew=E2=80=9D and it=E2=80=99s only =E2=80=9Cnew=E2=80=9D = right now. If we=E2=80=99re successful and people are still talking = about it in ten years then it won=E2=80=99t be new anymore and the name = will just seem absurd. 

While we=E2=80=99re at it, we really = can=E2=80=99t use =E2=80=9CXAuth=E2=80=9D because it=E2=80=99s already = been something for 30 years: the X11 authentication command: https://www.x.org/archive/X11R6.8.1/doc/xauth.1.html
<= div class=3D"">
My project=E2=80=99s = name =E2=80=9CXYZ=E2=80=9D would also be a bad name for a lasting = protocol, as it=E2=80=99s too generic on its own. 

I still argue that we = should call the protocol and the working group TxAuth. = Not only do I think the underlying =E2=80=9Ctransactional = authorization=E2=80=9D aspect is a key difference from what=E2=80=99s = come before (the nature of which I=E2=80=99ve described many, many times = on this list), if you go and search for the term =E2=80=9Ctxauth=E2=80=9D = you end up back at this mailing list and the posts that people have made = about it. 

 =E2=80=94 Justin

On Apr = 10, 2020, at 9:22 AM, Vijay IETF <vijay.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:

Assuming we are still at = it...

NgAuth (Next = Gen Auth).

On Tue, 24 Mar 2020 at 19:00, Amanjeev = Sethi <aj@amanjeev.com> wrote:
TOI (as in french you): = TxAuth's OAuth's Improvement

On Tue, Mar 24, 2020, at 4:25 AM, Lee McGovern wrote:
> YAAP
>
> Yet another authX protocol
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Txauth <txauth-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf = Of Matthew A. Miller
> Sent: Monday, March 23, 2020 3:06 PM
> To: txauth@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Txauth] WG name: TxAuth? XAuth? Something else?
>
> On 20/03/23 13:49, Brian Campbell wrote:
> > YAAAAS - Yet Another Authorization And Authentication = Specification
> >
>
> +1
>
>
> - m&m
>
> Matthew A. Miller
>
> > On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 1:39 PM Mike Jones
> > <Michael.Jones=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc..ietf.org
> > <mailto:40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org>> = wrote:
> >
> >     In brainstorming mode=E2=80=A6____
> >
> >       * Disaggregated Authorization = (DisAuth)____
> >       * Componentized Authorization = (CompAuth)____
> >       * Build-Your-Own Authorization = (BYOAuth)____
> >       * Do-It-Yourself Authorization = (DIYAuth)____
> >       * Refactored Authorization (ReAuth = or RefAuth)____
> >
> >     __ __
> >
> >     And for fun=E2=80=A6____
> >
> >       * Dismembered Authorization____
> >
> >     __ __
> >
> >    =             &n= bsp;           &nbs= p;            =             &n= bsp;      -- Mike____
> >
> >     __ __
> >
> >     *From:* Txauth <txauth-bounces@ietf.org
> >     <mailto:txauth-bounces@ietf.org>> *On Behalf Of *David = Skaife
> >     *Sent:* Saturday, March 21, 2020 11:22 = AM
> >     *To:* Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu <mailto:jricher@mit.edu>>
> >     *Cc:* Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com
> >     <mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>>; txauth@ietf.org
> >     <mailto:txauth@ietf.org>; Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com
> >     <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>>
> >     *Subject:* Re: [Txauth] WG name: TxAuth? = XAuth? Something
> > else?____
> >
> >     __ __
> >
> >     I think we're saying the same thing with = regards to the working
> >     group name - I was saying it *isn't* = particularly important in
> >     comparison to the name of the protocol = (which obviously is very
> >     important).____
> >
> >     __ __
> >
> >     On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 6:18 PM Justin = Richer <jricher@mit.edu
> >     <mailto:jricher@mit.edu>> wrote:____
> >
> >         I disagree on the working = group name being super important.
> >         Nobody knows that the OAuth = WG is actually named =E2=80=9CThe Web
> >         Authorization Protocol = Working Group=E2=80=9D, and nobody cares.____
> >
> >         __ __
> >
> >         My proposal is that we name = the protocol we work on =E2=80=9CTxAuth=E2=80=9D
> >         (and keep the mailing list), = and that we name the working group
> >         something like =E2=80=9CNext = Generation Web Authorization Protocol=E2=80=9D to
> >         say what we=E2=80=99re = doing.____
> >
> >         __ __
> >
> >          -- Justin____
> >
> >
> >
> >         ____
> >
> >             On Mar 21, = 2020, at 2:08 PM, David Skaife
> >             <blue.ringed.octopus.guy@gmail.com
> >             <mailto:blue.ringed.octopus.guy@gmail.com>> wrote:____
> >
> >             __ __
> >
> >             Just to throw = in another suggestion, to address Yaron's
> >             point about = some people mistakenly thinking that "Auth"
> >             stands for = authentication rather than authorization, how
> >             about naming = the working group *AuthZ*____
> >
> >             Nice and = simple, and it makes it clear what the group is
> >             focused on.
> >
> >             I think the = name of the actual protocol that we produce is
> >             far, far more = important that the name of the working group -
> >             and the name of = that protocol doesn't need to correlate to
> >             the WG name. = Also, we have much more time before we need to
> >             decide on the = name of that protocol, even if the
> >            =  initial draft documents that we produce end up using a
> >             placeholder = name.____
> >
> >             __ __
> >
> >             On Sat, Mar 21, = 2020 at 5:44 PM Justin Richer
> >             <jricher@mit.edu <mailto:jricher@mit.edu>> wrote:____
> >
> >                =  As you can see in the email you replied to, that is not
> >                =  even close to what I said. I believe it is a
> >                =  transaction, and therefore, I do not agree that it=E2=80=99s = not
> >                 a = transaction.____
> >
> >                =  __ __
> >
> >                =  But if we take =E2=80=9CTransactional=E2=80=9D out of the WG = title, I
> >                =  won=E2=80=99t be offended. If we just call it =E2=80=9CTxAuth=E2=80=9D= without
> >                =  expansion, then that=E2=80=99s fine.____
> >
> >                =  __ __
> >
> >                 I = do not like calling it =E2=80=9CXAuth=E2=80=9D. The term =E2=80=9CTAuth" = was
> >                =  floated during naming the list, but rejected because
> >                =  (among other reasons) it would likely be awkwardly
> >                =  pronounced as =E2=80=9Ctowth=E2=80=9D or something. TxAuth reads = as =E2=80=9CTee
> >                 - = ex - oth=E2=80=9D more naturally, which was the intent. ____
> >
> >                =  __ __
> >
> >                =  So how about we take a page from the OAuth working group
> >                =  and name it:____
> >
> >                =  __ __
> >
> >                =  TxAuth - Next Generation Web Authorization Protocol
> >                =  Working Group____
> >
> >                =  __ __
> >
> >                =  __ __
> >
> >                =   =E2=80=94 Justin____
> >
> >
> >
> >                =  ____
> >
> >                  =    On Mar 21, 2020, at 1:15 PM, Dick Hardt
> >                  =    <dick.hardt@gmail.com <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>>
> >                  =    wrote:____
> >
> >                  =    __ __
> >
> >                  =    To clarify -- you agree it is not a transaction, and
> >                  =    we will take the word transaction out of the WG
> >                  =    title?____
> >
> >                  =    __ __
> >
> >                  =    On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 5:53 PM Justin Richer
> >                  =    <jricher@mit.edu <mailto:jricher@mit.edu>>
> > wrote:____
> >
> >                  =        Dick, thanks for pulling the definitions
> > up:____
> >
> >                  =        __ __
> >
> >                  =        > a communicative action or activity = involving
> >                  =        two parties or things that reciprocally = affect
> >                  =        or influence each other____
> >
> >                  =        __ __
> >
> >                  =        This is the kind of thing that I had in = mind.
> >                  =        The client and the AS are in a conversation = over
> >                  =        time that each one contributes to and each
> >                  =        changes. ____
> >
> >                  =        __ __
> >
> >                  =        Also =E2=80=94 we can just as easily decide = that
> >                  =        =E2=80=9CTxAuth=E2=80=9D doesn=E2=80=99t = stand for =E2=80=9CTransactional Auth=E2=80=9D
> >                  =        much the same way we decided that the =E2=80=9C= O=E2=80=9D in
> >                  =        =E2=80=9COAuth=E2=80=9D doesn=E2=80=99t stand = for =E2=80=9COpen=E2=80=9D anymore. ____
> >
> >                  =        __ __
> >
> >                  =        None of the arguments below in favor of = XAuth
> >                  =        have made me like that name better. If it=E2=80= =99s just
> >                  =        a =E2=80=9Cplaceholder=E2=80=9D name, then = why come up with
> >                  =        something new?____
> >
> >                  =        __ __
> >
> >                  =         =E2=80=94 Justin____
> >
> >
> >
> >                  =        ____
> >
> >                  =            On Mar 20, 2020, at 3:32 PM, = Dick Hardt
> >                  =            <dick.hardt@gmail.com
> >                  =            <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>> wrote:____
> >
> >                  =            __ __
> >
> >                  =            __ __
> >
> >                  =            __ __
> >
> >                  =            __ __
> >
> >                  =            not a transaction - there are = multiple
> >                  =            transactions____
> >
> >                  =            __ __
> >
> >                  =            backchannel innovation is = combination of
> >                  =            here is who I am, and here is = what I want to
> >                  =            do____
> >
> >                  =            __ __
> >
> >                  =            __ __
> >
> >                  =            childhood trauma therapy = group____
> >
> >                  =            __ __
> >
> >                  =            __ __
> >
> >                  =            __ __
> >
> >                  =            On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 6:56 PM = Justin
> >                  =            Richer <jricher@mit.edu
> >                  =            <mailto:jricher@mit.edu>> wrote:____
> >
> >                  =                Yes, naming = things is hard =E2=80=94 but I still
> >                  =                believe in the = name TxAuth. We=E2=80=99re moving
> >                  =                beyond OAuth, and = taking the process of
> >                  =                getting an = authorization delegated to
> >                  =                the client = software as a multi-step,
> >                  =                multi-party = transaction is, I believe,
> >                  =                the key insight = that=E2=80=99s letting us move
> >                  =                beyond OAuth=E2=80=99= s limitations here. It=E2=80=99s
> >                  =                not just about = going to the AS first =E2=80=94
> >                  =                we had that in = OAuth 1 and we=E2=80=99re
> >                  =                patching that = into OAuth 2 with PAR.. I
> >                  =                really think = it=E2=80=99s about the transaction
> >                  =                at the = core.. ____
> >
> >                  =            __ __
> >
> >                  =            OAuth 2.0 had multi-step, = multi-party.
> >                  =            TxAuth extends that.____
> >
> >                  =            __ __
> >
> >                  =            I think the big shift is going = to the AS.
> >                  =            This enables the request to be = richer with
> >                  =            JSON, instead of name/value = pairs parameters
> >                  =            in a URI. It allows the client = and AS to
> >                  =            negotiate, and to short circuit = having to
> >                  =            redirect the user to the AS. = PAR does some
> >                  =            of this, but it is constrained = by having to
> >                  =            do it in the OAuth 2.0 = context.____
> >
> >                  =            __ __
> >
> >                  =            My concern is that the protocol = is MUCH MORE
> >                  =            than a transaction. While the = initial
> >                  =            interaction between client, AS, = user and RO
> >                  =            is a transaction. The protocol = also covers
> >                  =            the client and RS = interactions. The access
> >                  =            token refreshes. Access token = revocation.
> >                  =            Access token introspection. As = described in
> >                  =            the charter, there is a whole = lifecycle,
> >                  =            that consists of multiple
> > transactions.____
> >
> >                  =            __ __
> >
> >                  =            From
> > https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transaction:____=
> >
> >                  =            __ __
> >
> >
> >                  =                Definition = of /transaction/____
> >
> >                  =           =  *1a**: *something transacted
> >                  =            <https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transacted>/e= specially/ *: *an
> >                  =            exchange or transfer
> >                  =            <https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transfer>&nbs= p;of
> >                  =            goods, services, or
> >                  =           =  fundselectronic /transactions/____
> >
> >                  =           =  *b: transactions*/ plural/ *: *the often
> >                  =            published record of the meeting = of a society
> >                  =            or association____
= > >
> >                  =            *2a**: *an act, process, = or instance
> >                  =            of transacting
> >                  =            
> > <https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transacting>_= ___
> >
> >                  =            *b**: *a communicative = action or activity
> >                  =            involving two parties or things = that
> >                  =            reciprocally affect or = influence each
> > other____
> >
> >                  =            __ __
> >
> >                  =            Calling the protocol a = transaction will
> >                  =            confusing to people.____
> >
> >                  =             ____
> >
> >                  =                __ __
> >
> >                  =                Having come of = age in the 1990=E2=80=99s, I have
> >                  =                particular = dislike for XAuth. It sounds
> >                  =                too =E2=80=9CX-TREM= E=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9CX-CITING=E2=80=9D, and if you
> >                  =                read either of = those with a growling
> >                  =                yell in your head = then you know exactly
> >                  =                what I=E2=80=99m = talking about.____
> >
> >                  =            __ __
> >
> >                  =            In case you are confused, this = is not a
> >                  =            childhood trauma support = group.  :)____
> >
> >                  =            __ __
> >
> >                  =            Unlike "X-TREME" or "X-CITING", = XAuth is
> >                  =            using the "X" as a placeholder. = X-Men, Xbox,
> >                  =            X-Factor, X-files. ____
> >
> >                  =            __ __
> >
> >                  =            
> > https://www.businessinsider.com/the-indisputable-power-of-brand= -x-2012
> > -4____
> >
> >                  =            __ __
> >
> >                  =            
> > https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/358181/whats-the-pu= rpose-o
> > f-using-letter-x-or-x-as-a-suffix-in-brand-names____
> >
> >                  =            __ __
> >
> >                  =             ____
> >
> >                  =                And to Dick=E2=80=99= s rationale for the name
> >                  =                below, I = absolutely do NOT see this work
> >                  =                as =E2=80=9COAuth = with all the extra features=E2=80=9D.
> >                  =                I think that does = a disservice to the
> >                  =                kind of change we = have an opportunity to
> >                  =                make = here. ____
> >
> >                  =            __ __
> >
> >                  =            =46rom the charter ____
> >
> >                  =            __ __
> >
> >                  =                "It will expand = upon the uses cases
> >                  =                currently = supported by OAuth 2.0 and
> >                  =                OpenID Connect = (itself an extension of
> >                  =                OAuth = 2.0)"____
> >
> >                  =            __ __
> >
> >                  =            Which sounds pretty similar = to =E2=80=9COAuth with
> >                  =            all the extra = features=E2=80=9D____
> >
> >                  =            __ __
> >
> >                  =            While I think XAuth captures = what we are
> >                  =            doing, a placeholder name would = be
> >                  =            preferable to an incorrect = descriptive name
> >                  =            such as TxAuth.____
> >
> >                  =            __ __
> >
> >                  =            For example, XYZ is a good = placeholder name.
> >                  =            Or XYZAuth. Let's not mislead = people.____
> >
> >                  =             ____
> >
> >                  =                __ __
> >
> >                  =                 =E2=80=94 = Justin____
> >
> >
> >
> >                  =                ____
= > >
> >                  =                    On = Mar 16, 2020, at 7:04 PM, Dick
> >                  =                   =  Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com
> >                  =                   =  <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>>
> >                  =                   =  wrote:____
> >
> >                  =                   =  __ __
> >
> >                  =                   =  Hello everyone____
> >
> >                  =                   =  __ __
> >
> >                  =                    I = prompted a thread around the name
> >                  =                    of = the protocol a while back:____
> >
> >                  =                   =  __ __
> >
> >                  =                    
> > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/txauth/ZVQVbHt4ADqehKrBDX= OrTr_s_
> > wc/____
> >
> >                  =                   =  __ __
> >
> >                  =                    As = Justin stated "naming is
> > hard"____
> >
> >                  =                   =  __ __
> >
> >                  =                   =  Wearing my marketing hat I want to
> >                  =                   =  ensure that the name will be
> >                  =                   =  perceived properly in the broader
> >                  =                   =  community.____
> >
> >                  =                   =  __ __
> >
> >                  =                    A = recent example that comes to mind
> >                  =                    are = the privacy related works on the
> >                  =                   =  browser storage API. Given that
> >                  =                   =  name, one would think that it is
> >                  =                   =  local storage. It is actually about
> >                  =                   =  browser cookies.____
> >
> >                  =                   =  __ __
> >
> >                  =                   =  Justin discussed his reasons for
> >                  =                   =  TxAuth in the thread above (and I'm
> >                  =                   =  sure in other places)____
> >
> >                  =                   =  __ __
> >
> >                  =                    I = chose XAuth in my draft to reflect
> >                  =                    the = eXtensibility goal that we have
> >                  =                   =  over OAuth -- and XAuth is OAuth but
> >                  =                   =  with an X to reflect all the extra
> >                  =                   =  features. =3D)____
> >
> >                  =                   =  __ __
> >
> >                  =                   =  Other suggestions?____
> >
> >                  =                   =  __ __
> >
> >                  =                   =  This will be an agenda item in the
> >                  =                    BoF = -- but the name will NOT be an
> >                  =                   =  open discussion item -- we will
> >                  =                   =  summarize what has been discussed on
> >                  =                    the = list and perhaps do a poll of
> >                  =                   =  options presented unless consensus
> >                  =                    is = obvious from this thread.____
> >
> >                  =                   =  __ __
> >
> >                  =                   =  /Dick____
> >
> >                  =                   =  __ __
> >
> >                  =                   =  __ __
> >
> >                  =                   =  __ __
> >
> >                  =                   =  __ __
> >
> >                  =                   =  __ __
> >
> >                  =                   =  =E1=90=A7____
> >
> >                  =                __ __
> >
> >                  =        __ __
> >
> >                =  __ __
> >
> >                =  --
> >                =  Txauth mailing list
> >                =  Txauth@ietf.org <mailto:Txauth@ietf.org>
> >                =  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth____
> >
> >         __ __
> >
> >     --
> >     Txauth mailing list
> >     Txauth@ietf.org <mailto:Txauth@ietf.org>
> >     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
= > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > <https://www.pingidentity.com>Ping = Identity <https://www.pingidentity.com>  =        
> > Brian Campbell     
> > Distinguished Engineer     
> > bcampbell@pingidentity.com <mailto:bcampbell@pingidentity.com>     
> > w: +1 720.317.2061 
> > c: +1 303.918..9415
> >
> > Connect with us:    Glassdoor logo
> > <https://www.glassdoor.com/Overview/Working-at-Ping-Identity-EI_= IE3809
> > 07.11,24.htm> LinkedIn logo <https://www.linkedin.com/company/21870>
> > twitter logo
> > <https://twitter.com/pingidentity>  facebook = logo
> > <https://www.facebook.com/pingidentitypage> youtube = logo
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> > <https://www.pingidentity.com/en/blog.html>
> >
> > <https://www.google.com/url?q=3Dhttps://www.pingidentity.com/con= tent/dam
> > = /ping-6-2-assets/Assets/faqs/en/consumer-attitudes-post-breach-era-337
> > = 5.pdf?id%3Db6322a80-f285-11e3-ac10-0800200c9a66&source=3Dgmail&ust= =3D15416
> > = 93608526000&usg=3DAFQjCNGBl5cPHCUAVKGZ_NnpuFj5PHGSUQ><https://www.pingid
> > entity.com/en/events/d/identify-2019.html><https://www.pingidentity.co
> > = m/content/dam/ping-6-2-assets/Assets/Misc/en/3464-consumersurvey-execs
> > ummary.pdf><https://www.pingidentity.com/en/events/e/rsa.html><ht= tps:/
> > /www.pingidentity.com/en/events/e/rsa.html><https://www.pingidentity.c
> > om/en/lp/e/enabling-work-from-home-with-MFA.html>
> >
> > /If you=E2=80=99re not a current customer, click here
> > <https://www.pingidentity.com/en/lp/e/work-from-home-sso-mfa.htm= l?utm_
> > = source=3DEmail&utm_campaign=3DWF-COVID19-New-EMSIG> for a = more relevant
> > offer./
> >
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= --Apple-Mail=_0F87505A-95FE-4292-B804-C1FD11B0C1A7-- From nobody Mon Apr 13 15:02:57 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: txauth@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: txauth@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2580F3A1F18 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 15:02:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qq4DqNrq1raL for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 15:02:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-il1-x136.google.com (mail-il1-x136.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8D3FA3A1F1B for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 15:02:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-il1-x136.google.com with SMTP id u5so3042741ilb.5 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 15:02:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=NFD0vsoQShw+/QL34CxK59LhzXSiC/AGm4BmI3MfeO4=; b=J6ED0ymtkzx33TV77QVMw0WWV7AIy0L2WTEnsaedSvR5p38cYJMPlEGo/nE0rJflDF ipomZ2znm5gRgZFy2VYnskCTYmnGNFBl8HJeS2ai5vbLxS3olNe7RpdweLGogmF7YSV2 W5XaGwjwjCOzu3zjgw9rD23TAemoPefmrh8WCBRFoxJKhgp83oRQaOhiPazzPDHdvs8H 1EML8qtwbM/SbjtRGF4U3rCW4VxgR8jGTUQfcN14SgIPdde4yfTzfo3eEs4dMNWXEPZE jh7xMIZvqQAJxX6DW4P1/0mibZ12qwIGETA2gQQtvaQdfcBnuJL4vatphq3YZcKlh8ly Q88A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=NFD0vsoQShw+/QL34CxK59LhzXSiC/AGm4BmI3MfeO4=; b=jq5J1W9gcIxvZ5UIlce4LHecWtRjX6OHm3fOQS5yL86iWuUFko3nCIr6vNlWzW5IUz AIizqt99tGtraPirQyPnFx3B0PI1gCUvbTFs/t8PH11yC2JZeaaYIXEY189sFf3zbcxt ySZW4y1yCxjyUn8ovapTcf2ErUq5MRwLa65b/O5veP3cIA83tQyqPQAKlmtjwmP+qAq3 I9tfFgzhr/EcYk+/BARFVcB7iTikfeAVtrf+Y1xmBvCz9iyFCmVwsAfknpQCZ/WXi5QK b6ZcpHy7XrxjAzPktW1pLnVDSyRAgud64H+XTZJJKBJcPTGl99JmL+QNMXb56gDuOM/Z aY5A== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuaRl+Ku9UG1iQdVXQ4VudtUzDUF7XdSa1ZCnU/cbWblcFbibo+Y JiBbJZXwvKKzcwbkM3NVjeM/TebSS2jIPwpsD6A= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypI8WywzUyvfqFdzAWwm5zi38HTKCLugfsgYXBpVQwu+82ZUx6YW2i4tTD+budSTm6BHrcu5GNGcEFn2y1hNlik= X-Received: by 2002:a92:3958:: with SMTP id g85mr19544895ila.302.1586815370681; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 15:02:50 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <2ebd1c3e4b844a8195649cf83546b749@CHRP5009.corp.gwpnet.com> <475762FD-D73A-4850-95A6-F9E130BA8CFE@mit.edu> In-Reply-To: <475762FD-D73A-4850-95A6-F9E130BA8CFE@mit.edu> From: Vijay IETF Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 03:32:39 +0530 Message-ID: To: Justin Richer Cc: Amanjeev Sethi , Lee McGovern , "Matthew A. Miller" , "txauth@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007e613405a3333e37" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Txauth] WG name: TxAuth? XAuth? Something else? X-BeenThere: txauth@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 22:02:56 -0000 --0000000000007e613405a3333e37 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sounds good to me. On Tue, 14 Apr 2020 at 00:13, Justin Richer wrote: > I appreciate the brainstorming of names here. > > I dislike names like =E2=80=9CNgAuth=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9CYAAP=E2=80=9D o= r the like because they rely on > this being =E2=80=9Cnew=E2=80=9D and it=E2=80=99s only =E2=80=9Cnew=E2=80= =9D right now. If we=E2=80=99re successful and > people are still talking about it in ten years then it won=E2=80=99t be n= ew anymore > and the name will just seem absurd. > > While we=E2=80=99re at it, we really can=E2=80=99t use =E2=80=9CXAuth=E2= =80=9D because it=E2=80=99s already been > something for 30 years: the X11 authentication command: > https://www.x.org/archive/X11R6.8.1/doc/xauth.1.html > > My project=E2=80=99s name =E2=80=9CXYZ=E2=80=9D would also be a bad name = for a lasting protocol, > as it=E2=80=99s too generic on its own. > > I still argue that we should call the protocol and the working group > *TxAuth*. Not only do I think the underlying =E2=80=9Ctransactional > authorization=E2=80=9D aspect is a key difference from what=E2=80=99s com= e before (the > nature of which I=E2=80=99ve described many, many times on this list), if= you go > and search for the term =E2=80=9Ctxauth=E2=80=9D you end up back at this = mailing list and > the posts that people have made about it. > > =E2=80=94 Justin > > On Apr 10, 2020, at 9:22 AM, Vijay IETF wrote: > > Assuming we are still at it... > > NgAuth (Next Gen Auth). > > On Tue, 24 Mar 2020 at 19:00, Amanjeev Sethi wrote: > >> TOI (as in french you): TxAuth's OAuth's Improvement >> >> On Tue, Mar 24, 2020, at 4:25 AM, Lee McGovern wrote: >> > YAAP >> > >> > Yet another authX protocol >> > >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: Txauth On Behalf Of Matthew A. Miller >> > Sent: Monday, March 23, 2020 3:06 PM >> > To: txauth@ietf.org >> > Subject: Re: [Txauth] WG name: TxAuth? XAuth? Something else? >> > >> > On 20/03/23 13:49, Brian Campbell wrote: >> > > YAAAAS - Yet Another Authorization And Authentication Specification >> > > >> > >> > +1 >> > >> > >> > - m&m >> > >> > Matthew A. Miller >> > >> > > On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 1:39 PM Mike Jones >> > > > > > > wrote: >> > > >> > > In brainstorming mode=E2=80=A6____ >> > > >> > > * Disaggregated Authorization (DisAuth)____ >> > > * Componentized Authorization (CompAuth)____ >> > > * Build-Your-Own Authorization (BYOAuth)____ >> > > * Do-It-Yourself Authorization (DIYAuth)____ >> > > * Refactored Authorization (ReAuth or RefAuth)____ >> > > >> > > __ __ >> > > >> > > And for fun=E2=80=A6____ >> > > >> > > * Dismembered Authorization____ >> > > >> > > __ __ >> > > >> > > -- Mike__= __ >> > > >> > > __ __ >> > > >> > > *From:* Txauth > > > > *On Behalf Of *David Skaife >> > > *Sent:* Saturday, March 21, 2020 11:22 AM >> > > *To:* Justin Richer > >> > > *Cc:* Yaron Sheffer > > > >; txauth@ietf.org >> > > ; Dick Hardt > > > > >> > > *Subject:* Re: [Txauth] WG name: TxAuth? XAuth? Something >> > > else?____ >> > > >> > > __ __ >> > > >> > > I think we're saying the same thing with regards to the working >> > > group name - I was saying it *isn't* particularly important in >> > > comparison to the name of the protocol (which obviously is very >> > > important).____ >> > > >> > > __ __ >> > > >> > > On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 6:18 PM Justin Richer > > > > wrote:____ >> > > >> > > I disagree on the working group name being super important. >> > > Nobody knows that the OAuth WG is actually named =E2=80=9CTh= e Web >> > > Authorization Protocol Working Group=E2=80=9D, and nobody ca= res.____ >> > > >> > > __ __ >> > > >> > > My proposal is that we name the protocol we work on =E2=80= =9CTxAuth=E2=80=9D >> > > (and keep the mailing list), and that we name the working >> group >> > > something like =E2=80=9CNext Generation Web Authorization Pr= otocol=E2=80=9D to >> > > say what we=E2=80=99re doing.____ >> > > >> > > __ __ >> > > >> > > -- Justin____ >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > ____ >> > > >> > > On Mar 21, 2020, at 2:08 PM, David Skaife >> > > > > > > wrote:____ >> > > >> > > __ __ >> > > >> > > Just to throw in another suggestion, to address Yaron's >> > > point about some people mistakenly thinking that "Auth" >> > > stands for authentication rather than authorization, how >> > > about naming the working group *AuthZ*____ >> > > >> > > Nice and simple, and it makes it clear what the group is >> > > focused on. >> > > >> > > I think the name of the actual protocol that we produce = is >> > > far, far more important that the name of the working >> group - >> > > and the name of that protocol doesn't need to correlate = to >> > > the WG name. Also, we have much more time before we need >> to >> > > decide on the name of that protocol, even if the >> > > initial draft documents that we produce end up using a >> > > placeholder name.____ >> > > >> > > __ __ >> > > >> > > On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 5:44 PM Justin Richer >> > > > wrote:____ >> > > >> > > As you can see in the email you replied to, that is >> not >> > > even close to what I said. I believe it is a >> > > transaction, and therefore, I do not agree that it= =E2=80=99s >> not >> > > a transaction.____ >> > > >> > > __ __ >> > > >> > > But if we take =E2=80=9CTransactional=E2=80=9D out o= f the WG title, I >> > > won=E2=80=99t be offended. If we just call it =E2=80= =9CTxAuth=E2=80=9D without >> > > expansion, then that=E2=80=99s fine.____ >> > > >> > > __ __ >> > > >> > > I do not like calling it =E2=80=9CXAuth=E2=80=9D. Th= e term =E2=80=9CTAuth" was >> > > floated during naming the list, but rejected because >> > > (among other reasons) it would likely be awkwardly >> > > pronounced as =E2=80=9Ctowth=E2=80=9D or something. = TxAuth reads as >> =E2=80=9CTee >> > > - ex - oth=E2=80=9D more naturally, which was the in= tent. ____ >> > > >> > > __ __ >> > > >> > > So how about we take a page from the OAuth working >> group >> > > and name it:____ >> > > >> > > __ __ >> > > >> > > TxAuth - Next Generation Web Authorization Protocol >> > > Working Group____ >> > > >> > > __ __ >> > > >> > > __ __ >> > > >> > > =E2=80=94 Justin____ >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > ____ >> > > >> > > On Mar 21, 2020, at 1:15 PM, Dick Hardt >> > > > dick.hardt@gmail.com>> >> > > wrote:____ >> > > >> > > __ __ >> > > >> > > To clarify -- you agree it is not a transaction, >> and >> > > we will take the word transaction out of the WG >> > > title?____ >> > > >> > > __ __ >> > > >> > > On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 5:53 PM Justin Richer >> > > > >> > > wrote:____ >> > > >> > > Dick, thanks for pulling the definitions >> > > up:____ >> > > >> > > __ __ >> > > >> > > > a communicative action or activity involvi= ng >> > > two parties or things that reciprocally affe= ct >> > > or influence each other____ >> > > >> > > __ __ >> > > >> > > This is the kind of thing that I had in mind= . >> > > The client and the AS are in a conversation >> over >> > > time that each one contributes to and each >> > > changes. ____ >> > > >> > > __ __ >> > > >> > > Also =E2=80=94 we can just as easily decide = that >> > > =E2=80=9CTxAuth=E2=80=9D doesn=E2=80=99t sta= nd for =E2=80=9CTransactional >> Auth=E2=80=9D >> > > much the same way we decided that the =E2=80= =9CO=E2=80=9D in >> > > =E2=80=9COAuth=E2=80=9D doesn=E2=80=99t stan= d for =E2=80=9COpen=E2=80=9D anymore. ____ >> > > >> > > __ __ >> > > >> > > None of the arguments below in favor of XAut= h >> > > have made me like that name better. If it=E2= =80=99s >> just >> > > a =E2=80=9Cplaceholder=E2=80=9D name, then w= hy come up with >> > > something new?____ >> > > >> > > __ __ >> > > >> > > =E2=80=94 Justin____ >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > ____ >> > > >> > > On Mar 20, 2020, at 3:32 PM, Dick Hardt >> > > > > > > wrote:___= _ >> > > >> > > __ __ >> > > >> > > __ __ >> > > >> > > __ __ >> > > >> > > __ __ >> > > >> > > not a transaction - there are multiple >> > > transactions____ >> > > >> > > __ __ >> > > >> > > backchannel innovation is combination of >> > > here is who I am, and here is what I wan= t >> to >> > > do____ >> > > >> > > __ __ >> > > >> > > __ __ >> > > >> > > childhood trauma therapy group____ >> > > >> > > __ __ >> > > >> > > __ __ >> > > >> > > __ __ >> > > >> > > On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 6:56 PM Justin >> > > Richer > > > > wrote:____ >> > > >> > > Yes, naming things is hard =E2=80=94= but I >> still >> > > believe in the name TxAuth. We=E2=80= =99re >> moving >> > > beyond OAuth, and taking the process >> of >> > > getting an authorization delegated t= o >> > > the client software as a multi-step, >> > > multi-party transaction is, I believ= e, >> > > the key insight that=E2=80=99s letti= ng us move >> > > beyond OAuth=E2=80=99s limitations h= ere. It=E2=80=99s >> > > not just about going to the AS first= =E2=80=94 >> > > we had that in OAuth 1 and we=E2=80= =99re >> > > patching that into OAuth 2 with PAR.= . >> I >> > > really think it=E2=80=99s about the >> transaction >> > > at the core.. ____ >> > > >> > > __ __ >> > > >> > > OAuth 2.0 had multi-step, multi-party. >> > > TxAuth extends that.____ >> > > >> > > __ __ >> > > >> > > I think the big shift is going to the AS= . >> > > This enables the request to be richer wi= th >> > > JSON, instead of name/value pairs >> parameters >> > > in a URI. It allows the client and AS to >> > > negotiate, and to short circuit having t= o >> > > redirect the user to the AS. PAR does so= me >> > > of this, but it is constrained by having >> to >> > > do it in the OAuth 2.0 context.____ >> > > >> > > __ __ >> > > >> > > My concern is that the protocol is MUCH >> MORE >> > > than a transaction. While the initial >> > > interaction between client, AS, user and >> RO >> > > is a transaction. The protocol also cove= rs >> > > the client and RS interactions. The acce= ss >> > > token refreshes. Access token revocation= . >> > > Access token introspection. As described >> in >> > > the charter, there is a whole lifecycle, >> > > that consists of multiple >> > > transactions.____ >> > > >> > > __ __ >> > > >> > > From >> > > https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transaction:____ >> > > >> > > __ __ >> > > >> > > >> > > Definition of /transaction/____ >> > > >> > > *1a**: *something transacted >> > > < >> https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transacted>/especially/ *: *a= n >> > > exchange or transfer >> > > < >> https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transfer> of >> > > goods, services, or >> > > fundselectronic /transactions/____ >> > > >> > > *b: transactions*/ plural/ *: *the often >> > > published record of the meeting of a >> society >> > > or association____ >> > > >> > > *2a**: *an act, process, or instance >> > > of transacting >> > > >> > > ____ >> > > >> > > *b**: *a communicative action or activit= y >> > > involving two parties or things that >> > > reciprocally affect or influence each >> > > other____ >> > > >> > > __ __ >> > > >> > > Calling the protocol a transaction will >> > > confusing to people.____ >> > > >> > > ____ >> > > >> > > __ __ >> > > >> > > Having come of age in the 1990=E2=80= =99s, I >> have >> > > particular dislike for XAuth. It >> sounds >> > > too =E2=80=9CX-TREME=E2=80=9D and = =E2=80=9CX-CITING=E2=80=9D, and if >> you >> > > read either of those with a growling >> > > yell in your head then you know >> exactly >> > > what I=E2=80=99m talking about.____ >> > > >> > > __ __ >> > > >> > > In case you are confused, this is not a >> > > childhood trauma support group. :)____ >> > > >> > > __ __ >> > > >> > > Unlike "X-TREME" or "X-CITING", XAuth is >> > > using the "X" as a placeholder. X-Men, >> Xbox, >> > > X-Factor, X-files. ____ >> > > >> > > __ __ >> > > >> > > >> > > >> https://www.businessinsider.com/the-indisputable-power-of-brand-x-2012 >> > > -4____ >> > > >> > > __ __ >> > > >> > > >> > > >> https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/358181/whats-the-purpose-o >> > > f-using-letter-x-or-x-as-a-suffix-in-brand-names____ >> > > >> > > __ __ >> > > >> > > ____ >> > > >> > > And to Dick=E2=80=99s rationale for = the name >> > > below, I absolutely do NOT see this >> work >> > > as =E2=80=9COAuth with all the extra >> features=E2=80=9D. >> > > I think that does a disservice to th= e >> > > kind of change we have an opportunit= y >> to >> > > make here. ____ >> > > >> > > __ __ >> > > >> > > From the charter ____ >> > > >> > > __ __ >> > > >> > > "It will expand upon the uses cases >> > > currently supported by OAuth 2.0 and >> > > OpenID Connect (itself an extension = of >> > > OAuth 2.0)"____ >> > > >> > > __ __ >> > > >> > > Which sounds pretty similar to =E2=80=9C= OAuth with >> > > all the extra features=E2=80=9D____ >> > > >> > > __ __ >> > > >> > > While I think XAuth captures what we are >> > > doing, a placeholder name would be >> > > preferable to an incorrect descriptive >> name >> > > such as TxAuth.____ >> > > >> > > __ __ >> > > >> > > For example, XYZ is a good placeholder >> name. >> > > Or XYZAuth. Let's not mislead people.___= _ >> > > >> > > ____ >> > > >> > > __ __ >> > > >> > > =E2=80=94 Justin____ >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > ____ >> > > >> > > On Mar 16, 2020, at 7:04 PM, Dic= k >> > > Hardt > > > > >> > > wrote:____ >> > > >> > > __ __ >> > > >> > > Hello everyone____ >> > > >> > > __ __ >> > > >> > > I prompted a thread around the >> name >> > > of the protocol a while back:___= _ >> > > >> > > __ __ >> > > >> > > >> > > >> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/txauth/ZVQVbHt4ADqehKrBDXOrTr_s_ >> > > wc/____ >> > > >> > > __ __ >> > > >> > > As Justin stated "naming is >> > > hard"____ >> > > >> > > __ __ >> > > >> > > Wearing my marketing hat I want = to >> > > ensure that the name will be >> > > perceived properly in the broade= r >> > > community.____ >> > > >> > > __ __ >> > > >> > > A recent example that comes to >> mind >> > > are the privacy related works on >> the >> > > browser storage API. Given that >> > > name, one would think that it is >> > > local storage. It is actually >> about >> > > browser cookies.____ >> > > >> > > __ __ >> > > >> > > Justin discussed his reasons for >> > > TxAuth in the thread above (and >> I'm >> > > sure in other places)____ >> > > >> > > __ __ >> > > >> > > I chose XAuth in my draft to >> reflect >> > > the eXtensibility goal that we >> have >> > > over OAuth -- and XAuth is OAuth >> but >> > > with an X to reflect all the ext= ra >> > > features. =3D)____ >> > > >> > > __ __ >> > > >> > > Other suggestions?____ >> > > >> > > __ __ >> > > >> > > This will be an agenda item in t= he >> > > BoF -- but the name will NOT be = an >> > > open discussion item -- we will >> > > summarize what has been discusse= d >> on >> > > the list and perhaps do a poll o= f >> > > options presented unless consens= us >> > > is obvious from this thread.____ >> > > >> > > __ __ >> > > >> > > /Dick____ >> > > >> > > __ __ >> > > >> > > __ __ >> > > >> > > __ __ >> > > >> > > __ __ >> > > >> > > __ __ >> > > >> > > =E1=90=A7____ >> > > >> > > __ __ >> > > >> > > __ __ >> > > >> > > __ __ >> > > >> > > -- >> > > Txauth mailing list >> > > Txauth@ietf.org >> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth____ >> > > >> > > __ __ >> > > >> > > -- >> > > Txauth mailing list >> > > Txauth@ietf.org >> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > -- >> > > Ping Identity < >> https://www.pingidentity.com> >> > > Brian Campbell >> > > Distinguished Engineer >> > > bcampbell@pingidentity.com >> > > w: +1 720.317.2061 >> > > c: +1 303.918..9415 >> > > >> > > Connect with us: Glassdoor logo >> > > < >> https://www.glassdoor.com/Overview/Working-at-Ping-Identity-EI_IE3809 >> > > 07.11,24.htm> LinkedIn logo >> > > twitter logo >> > > facebook logo >> > > youtube logo >> > > Blog logo >> > > >> > > >> > > < >> https://www.google.com/url?q=3Dhttps://www.pingidentity.com/content/dam >> > > /ping-6-2-assets/Assets/faqs/en/consumer-attitudes-post-breach-era-3= 37 >> > > 5.pdf?id%3Db6322a80-f285-11e3-ac10-0800200c9a66&source=3Dgmail&ust= =3D15416 >> > > 93608526000&usg=3DAFQjCNGBl5cPHCUAVKGZ_NnpuFj5PHGSUQ>< >> https://www.pingid >> > > entity.com/en/events/d/identify-2019.html>< >> https://www.pingidentity.co >> > > m/content/dam/ping-6-2-assets/Assets/Misc/en/3464-consumersurvey-exe= cs >> > > ummary.pdf>> >> > > /www.pingidentity.com/en/events/e/rsa.html>< >> https://www.pingidentity.c >> > > om/en/lp/e/enabling-work-from-home-with-MFA.html> >> > > >> > > /If you=E2=80=99re not a current customer, click here >> > > < >> https://www.pingidentity.com/en/lp/e/work-from-home-sso-mfa.html?utm_ >> > > source=3DEmail&utm_campaign=3DWF-COVID19-New-EMSIG> for a more relev= ant >> > > offer./ >> > > >> > > /CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email may contain confidential and >> > > privileged material for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). >> Any >> > > review, use, distribution or disclosure by others is strictly >> > > prohibited.. 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mapi id 15.20.2949.000; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 22:25:46 +0000 From: Mike Jones To: Justin Richer , Vijay IETF CC: "Matthew A. Miller" , Lee McGovern , Amanjeev Sethi , "txauth@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Txauth] WG name: TxAuth? XAuth? Something else? Thread-Index: AdYR4nDyVAcMa9xRQgelBNhNnWznEA== Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 22:25:45 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: msip_labels: MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_ActionId=7a2b14dc-a076-4475-ae17-00005876c68d; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_ContentBits=0; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_Enabled=true; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_Method=Standard; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_Name=Internal; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_SetDate=2020-04-13T22:15:26Z; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_SiteId=72f988bf-86f1-41af-91ab-2d7cd011db47; authentication-results: mit.edu; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;mit.edu; dmarc=none action=none header.from=microsoft.com; x-originating-ip: [50.47.87.252] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-ht: Tenant x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: bb9463a1-3945-4602-8c04-08d7dff99c75 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: CH2PR00MB0745: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:2150; x-forefront-prvs: 037291602B x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:9; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:SPM; H:CH2PR00MB0678.namprd00.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:OSPM; SFTY:; SFS:(10001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1501; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: =?utf-8?B?Q0tBNlIxcENHU25HaTZXUXBQSzFhdkY1MHpEaGY1RUJyY0dtdm9xT2dPTnQx?= =?utf-8?B?SWJkVDhPSytGM0JQTkdyZXJydGs3TW9kQjZUWDZqa2pKTzRuSkxMdE8zNWtN?= =?utf-8?B?NWJUdGRRS2ZsbzVTakR3bGJaazBYUUFTTE1ZRU1wclYyeXBSMlptSlFYUFNo?= =?utf-8?B?UEUwckR6eklXOGxIV2o3em9uMGRPOE4vU29ua3k5bUNTUXJoODZGWCtlNDVH?= =?utf-8?B?OVVmOVBVOHBNMEQ5YnhWQlU0VnZNVE9iamg0bFRHMUtDQ0FlWXFBaUkzSzVJ?= =?utf-8?B?SDdlK0JGRFVnQjN5VmtSam1GQjF3VEFhL0hDOUtkZFJURVBCaFFaSE16b3dm?= =?utf-8?B?TWd2UUdIbENqdHJDRVFHS3RnNXNYWHBwT3BHNGJQTDhEa1FRb1Fpd2xIMnhI?= =?utf-8?B?OHJJeHJIRGF6TW81emJnNjltWWQ5QWRqSUlVYVJacTk4UTVjbFV3YTcyQ2c2?= =?utf-8?B?bzVqY2tZZ1M5U0kyTGxpV1VIZiswc0pmVklSTXpyMjRqc3gxM3doUWV6NnJD?= =?utf-8?B?SzdtZktQSHlFRVFEUWdheFRieGU3bENjekk3NEt0K0hINktzb1NzNXVtU1lX?= =?utf-8?B?ZURuWEVtWlBzQ1FTK29zSXlOWWI0dWhRWktRaGdEcCtvYUp1WWtrUHRCTVdN?= =?utf-8?B?WTdQYjJmcU9wVzBLYmgvWUsrWDlOUVl3QlI5bFZjTHd6c3RualBuQ25adE52?= =?utf-8?B?Z1dKdHplVDJIWFBHbGV4bEdRUzd0WUc5ZHN0Wkp0Z3daRGJCVnpFZWhTdnhi?= =?utf-8?B?RVV5NXdLbTExdCtjSytyQlU4TjRlVVpDeW90LzBjS3czdzlzcTEwSFVPWDZB?= =?utf-8?B?bHJ6OVVDWDEzdjhaUWNPMGJLQjJnYUw1WVBoS29lVGtvYWxiRlliYlg1VE56?= =?utf-8?B?YUJNYkpZVlA1OFdsMlU0MHVZV0pRM0c2MkZobWVUbzEzWGxFbzVOUnNieFFi?= =?utf-8?B?clQ0aWM1N2xFa3E5N2VkOWdwS2NGcUREUWlGdng1Mmd4eWIyUTlSWWx4R0FP?= =?utf-8?B?eXpUVThBNGJQZnQvSWR6TTRUU2lmRFF5NzBpcEsvcDRtM1pCL1Vjd2RJUGRM?= =?utf-8?B?YUdFWi9xK2pHVFVmQ2hxNWtQdXcrUy9XWnBqODRXMVA4K0VZYnA3NCtrQWUr?= =?utf-8?B?U0JuRGsvdThFNHJuNTdEWlI2aU40YmpwZUVOOXBuRjVrQnQzK0xQK0JWRHFC?= =?utf-8?B?OStmN1RjdDZEOFhGYitiNEcwVG54MlZpTXU2SkM5REV4dmdhTnA3a052MVlt?= =?utf-8?B?WnRtL2J0bWM2YUVSRnZzZTlHQ3MybVczQWRJcmdYdStOeXV2SGlhbUxtNjYr?= =?utf-8?Q?7iJ1nwbbynThBDKmP37bhjoMU9uLxlE8UU?= x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata: S6ah9EaWcgvfVUzHIisdWv5QIR+ZAd1gmeDVLMhqPMg0c1pWjnpA5l0ytB5K62ZfCYME6ka92GlS5tkUl1U3jMdSOrDXoMU1gCvCA5mCGzbZdA1pTGpdUSp+gH+hPSWqztItFBz160k+Ll+MMgiwEA== x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_CH2PR00MB0678624627F3C312B91BDE1AF5DD0CH2PR00MB0678namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: microsoft.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: bb9463a1-3945-4602-8c04-08d7dff99c75 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 13 Apr 2020 22:25:45.9321 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 72f988bf-86f1-41af-91ab-2d7cd011db47 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: U85zI4YbxQkl322bPVD0/8lByMdLiv3Oy0LhzylGe3UqNF6jQVupr4V7ljtu1H8F++n3KSJSvd1fH8AoyjpFUA== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CH2PR00MB0745 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Txauth] WG name: TxAuth? XAuth? Something else? 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IGNsYXNzPSJNc29Ob3JtYWwiPjxvOnA+Jm5ic3A7PC9vOnA+PC9wPg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8L2Rpdj4N CjwvZGl2Pg0KPC9ib2R5Pg0KPC9odG1sPg0K --_000_CH2PR00MB0678624627F3C312B91BDE1AF5DD0CH2PR00MB0678namp_-- From nobody Mon Apr 13 16:27:38 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: txauth@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: txauth@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D9663A20D7 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 16:27:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ftnskP6Kywck for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 16:27:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from outgoing.mit.edu (outgoing-auth-1.mit.edu [18.9.28.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3732A3A20D6 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 16:27:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.13] (static-71-174-62-56.bstnma.fios.verizon.net [71.174.62.56]) (authenticated bits=0) (User authenticated as jricher@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) by outgoing.mit.edu (8.14.7/8.12.4) with ESMTP id 03DNRQLF022020 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Mon, 13 Apr 2020 19:27:27 -0400 From: Justin Richer Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_8436C2EF-70C6-478D-9D2A-167BAC4D1DB5" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 19:27:26 -0400 In-Reply-To: Cc: Vijay IETF , "Matthew A. Miller" , Lee McGovern , Amanjeev Sethi , "txauth@ietf.org" To: Mike Jones References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Txauth] WG name: TxAuth? XAuth? Something else? X-BeenThere: txauth@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 23:27:37 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_8436C2EF-70C6-478D-9D2A-167BAC4D1DB5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Apr 13, 2020, at 6:25 PM, Mike Jones = wrote: >=20 > Because the proposed starting points and likely outcomes aren=E2=80=99t = transactional, I believe we shouldn=E2=80=99t confuse people by calling = it Transactional Authorization or using the abbreviation =E2=80=9CTx=E2=80= =9D. I=E2=80=99m not sure what you mean. XYZ, as a starting point, is = transactional by design. I have given several talks on this topic, which = you have attended. And in fact I would argue that the entire = intent-registration pattern, upon which both proposals are predicated, = is transactional in nature as well. As Dick was kind enough to pull the = definition earlier in this thread, let me restate that definition: a communicative action or activity involving two parties or = things that reciprocally affect or influence each other The entire act of getting the delegation to occur is a transaction = between the client and the AS (or equivalent component). The client = begins the transaction by talking to the AS, the AS continues the = transaction by optionally getting the user involved, and the client = continues the transaction when the interaction portion is completed, and = so on. While this is intentionally built into XYZ, I would argue that = even XAuth has this feature. So with that in mind, I don=E2=80=99t think it=E2=80=99s misleading or = confusing at all. I=E2=80=99m not sure why people keep referring to it = as =E2=80=9Cincorrect=E2=80=9D.=20 Yes, there are other definitions of =E2=80=9Ctransaction=E2=80=9D that = do not apply =E2=80=94 words have more than one definition, and that = happens. Since you asked, I will gladly offer my specific thoughts on your = suggestions. > =20 > I haven=E2=80=99t heard responses to any of these brainstormed names = yet: > Disaggregated Authorization (DisAuth) > Componentized Authorization (CompAuth) Neither of these capture what=E2=80=99s different about this. The = components are largely the same as they were in OAuth 2, UMA, OIDC, = SAML, and related protocols. The componentization isn=E2=80=99t the new = thing here, so I don=E2=80=99t think these are that good a fit. > Build-Your-Own Authorization (BYOAuth) > Do-It-Yourself Authorization (DIYAuth) These aren=E2=80=99t really what we=E2=80=99re after at all. In fact, = the proposed charter is specifically about building a protocol instead = of a framework, so either of these are very misleading. > Refactored Authorization (ReAuth or RefAuth) This doesn=E2=80=99t offer any description of what=E2=80=99s gone on = here. Refactored from what? Additionally I don=E2=80=99t believe this = name flows naturally from the proposed shortenings. =E2=80=9CReAuth=E2=80= =9D sounds like =E2=80=9CReAuthorization=E2=80=9D and/or = =E2=80=9CReAuthentication=E2=80=9D, where as =E2=80=9CRefAuth=E2=80=9D = sounds like it should stand for =E2=80=9Creference=E2=80=9D instead of = =E2=80=9Crefactored=E2=80=9D. > =20 > To those I=E2=80=99ll now add: > Alternative Authorization Protocol (AAP) > Alternative Authorization (AltAuth) > Reimagined Authorization (ReAuth) All of these are problematic for the same reason that =E2=80=9CNewAuth=E2=80= =9D or =E2=80=9CNgAuth=E2=80=9D are. They just say =E2=80=9Cit=E2=80=99s = new=E2=80=9D and don=E2=80=99t say anything about it. And if we=E2=80=99re= successful, it won=E2=80=99t be =E2=80=9Cnew" while people are still = using it. > Back-end Based Authorization (BBAuth) This is a start in concept, as it starts to talk about what=E2=80=99s = different, but =E2=80=9CBBAuth=E2=80=9D is already something =E2=80=94 = one of the predecessors of OAuth 1.0 was =E2=80=9CBBAuth=E2=80=9D from = Flickr (later Yahoo). Also, note that in this historical context, the = expansion is =E2=80=9CBrowser Based Auth=E2=80=9D, which could happen = here again. As one of the key aspects of what people are interested is = decoupling from the browser, we don=E2=80=99t want to have echos of = that, even if the name weren=E2=80=99t already historically taken. > =20 > And for fun, there=E2=80=99s still: > Dismembered Authorization > Plus: > ZZAuth =E2=80=93 The Protocol Please, no. > =20 > Surely others must have other good ideas than don=E2=80=99t use the = misleading term =E2=80=9CTransactional=E2=80=9D or its abbreviation = =E2=80=9CTx=E2=80=9D. > =20 Again, as above, this is not misleading. That said, if there=E2=80=99s a = better idea, I=E2=80=99m open to it. But for all of the reasons I keep = repeating now, TxAuth is decent and I haven=E2=80=99t seen a better one. Thanks, =E2=80=94 Justin > Cheers, > -- Mike > =20 > From: Txauth > On Behalf Of Justin Richer > Sent: Monday, April 13, 2020 11:43 AM > To: Vijay IETF > > Cc: Matthew A. Miller >; Lee McGovern = >; Amanjeev = Sethi >; txauth@ietf.org = > Subject: Re: [Txauth] WG name: TxAuth? XAuth? Something else? > =20 > I appreciate the brainstorming of names here.=20 > =20 > I dislike names like =E2=80=9CNgAuth=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9CYAAP=E2=80=9D = or the like because they rely on this being =E2=80=9Cnew=E2=80=9D and = it=E2=80=99s only =E2=80=9Cnew=E2=80=9D right now. If we=E2=80=99re = successful and people are still talking about it in ten years then it = won=E2=80=99t be new anymore and the name will just seem absurd.=20 > =20 > While we=E2=80=99re at it, we really can=E2=80=99t use =E2=80=9CXAuth=E2= =80=9D because it=E2=80=99s already been something for 30 years: the X11 = authentication command: = https://www.x.org/archive/X11R6.8.1/doc/xauth.1.html = > =20 > My project=E2=80=99s name =E2=80=9CXYZ=E2=80=9D would also be a bad = name for a lasting protocol, as it=E2=80=99s too generic on its own.=20 > =20 > I still argue that we should call the protocol and the working group = TxAuth. Not only do I think the underlying =E2=80=9Ctransactional = authorization=E2=80=9D aspect is a key difference from what=E2=80=99s = come before (the nature of which I=E2=80=99ve described many, many times = on this list), if you go and search for the term =E2=80=9Ctxauth=E2=80=9D = you end up back at this mailing list and the posts that people have made = about it.=20 > =20 > =E2=80=94 Justin >=20 >=20 > On Apr 10, 2020, at 9:22 AM, Vijay IETF > wrote: > =20 > Assuming we are still at it... > =20 > NgAuth (Next Gen Auth). > =20 > On Tue, 24 Mar 2020 at 19:00, Amanjeev Sethi > wrote: > TOI (as in french you): TxAuth's OAuth's Improvement >=20 > On Tue, Mar 24, 2020, at 4:25 AM, Lee McGovern wrote: > > YAAP=20 > >=20 > > Yet another authX protocol > >=20 > >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Txauth > On Behalf Of Matthew A. Miller > > Sent: Monday, March 23, 2020 3:06 PM > > To: txauth@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [Txauth] WG name: TxAuth? XAuth? Something else? > >=20 > > On 20/03/23 13:49, Brian Campbell wrote: > > > YAAAAS - Yet Another Authorization And Authentication = Specification > > >=20 > >=20 > > +1 > >=20 > >=20 > > - m&m > >=20 > > Matthew A. Miller > >=20 > > > On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 1:39 PM Mike Jones=20 > > > @dmarc..ietf.org > > > >> wrote: > > >=20 > > > In brainstorming mode=E2=80=A6____ > > >=20 > > > * Disaggregated Authorization (DisAuth)____ > > > * Componentized Authorization (CompAuth)____ > > > * Build-Your-Own Authorization (BYOAuth)____ > > > * Do-It-Yourself Authorization (DIYAuth)____ > > > * Refactored Authorization (ReAuth or RefAuth)____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > And for fun=E2=80=A6____ > > >=20 > > > * Dismembered Authorization____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > -- = Mike____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > *From:* Txauth > > > >> *On Behalf Of *David Skaife > > > *Sent:* Saturday, March 21, 2020 11:22 AM > > > *To:* Justin Richer = >> > > > *Cc:* Yaron Sheffer > > > >>; txauth@ietf.org = > > > >; Dick Hardt = > > > >> > > > *Subject:* Re: [Txauth] WG name: TxAuth? XAuth? Something=20 > > > else?____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > I think we're saying the same thing with regards to the = working > > > group name - I was saying it *isn't* particularly important in > > > comparison to the name of the protocol (which obviously is = very > > > important).____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 6:18 PM Justin Richer > > > >> wrote:____ > > >=20 > > > I disagree on the working group name being super = important. > > > Nobody knows that the OAuth WG is actually named =E2=80=9CTh= e Web > > > Authorization Protocol Working Group=E2=80=9D, and nobody = cares.____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > My proposal is that we name the protocol we work on = =E2=80=9CTxAuth=E2=80=9D > > > (and keep the mailing list), and that we name the working = group > > > something like =E2=80=9CNext Generation Web Authorization = Protocol=E2=80=9D to > > > say what we=E2=80=99re doing.____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > -- Justin____ > > >=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > ____ > > >=20 > > > On Mar 21, 2020, at 2:08 PM, David Skaife > > > > > > >> wrote:____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > Just to throw in another suggestion, to address = Yaron's > > > point about some people mistakenly thinking that = "Auth" > > > stands for authentication rather than authorization, = how > > > about naming the working group *AuthZ*____ > > >=20 > > > Nice and simple, and it makes it clear what the group = is > > > focused on. > > >=20 > > > I think the name of the actual protocol that we = produce is > > > far, far more important that the name of the working = group - > > > and the name of that protocol doesn't need to = correlate to > > > the WG name. Also, we have much more time before we = need to > > > decide on the name of that protocol, even if the > > > initial draft documents that we produce end up using a > > > placeholder name.____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 5:44 PM Justin Richer > > > = >> wrote:____ > > >=20 > > > As you can see in the email you replied to, that = is not > > > even close to what I said. I believe it is a > > > transaction, and therefore, I do not agree that = it=E2=80=99s not > > > a transaction.____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > But if we take =E2=80=9CTransactional=E2=80=9D out = of the WG title, I > > > won=E2=80=99t be offended. If we just call it = =E2=80=9CTxAuth=E2=80=9D without > > > expansion, then that=E2=80=99s fine.____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > I do not like calling it =E2=80=9CXAuth=E2=80=9D. = The term =E2=80=9CTAuth" was > > > floated during naming the list, but rejected = because > > > (among other reasons) it would likely be awkwardly > > > pronounced as =E2=80=9Ctowth=E2=80=9D or = something. TxAuth reads as =E2=80=9CTee > > > - ex - oth=E2=80=9D more naturally, which was the = intent. ____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > So how about we take a page from the OAuth working = group > > > and name it:____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > TxAuth - Next Generation Web Authorization = Protocol > > > Working Group____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > =E2=80=94 Justin____ > > >=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > ____ > > >=20 > > > On Mar 21, 2020, at 1:15 PM, Dick Hardt > > > >> > > > wrote:____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > To clarify -- you agree it is not a = transaction, and > > > we will take the word transaction out of the = WG > > > title?____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 5:53 PM Justin Richer > > > = >>=20 > > > wrote:____ > > >=20 > > > Dick, thanks for pulling the definitions=20= > > > up:____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > > a communicative action or activity = involving > > > two parties or things that reciprocally = affect > > > or influence each other____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > This is the kind of thing that I had in = mind. > > > The client and the AS are in a = conversation over > > > time that each one contributes to and each > > > changes. ____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > Also =E2=80=94 we can just as easily = decide that > > > =E2=80=9CTxAuth=E2=80=9D doesn=E2=80=99t = stand for =E2=80=9CTransactional Auth=E2=80=9D > > > much the same way we decided that the = =E2=80=9CO=E2=80=9D in > > > =E2=80=9COAuth=E2=80=9D doesn=E2=80=99t = stand for =E2=80=9COpen=E2=80=9D anymore. ____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > None of the arguments below in favor of = XAuth > > > have made me like that name better. If = it=E2=80=99s just > > > a =E2=80=9Cplaceholder=E2=80=9D name, then = why come up with > > > something new?____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > =E2=80=94 Justin____ > > >=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > ____ > > >=20 > > > On Mar 20, 2020, at 3:32 PM, Dick = Hardt > > > > > > >> wrote:____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > not a transaction - there are multiple > > > transactions____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > backchannel innovation is combination = of > > > here is who I am, and here is what I = want to > > > do____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > childhood trauma therapy group____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 6:56 PM Justin > > > Richer > > > >> wrote:____ > > >=20 > > > Yes, naming things is hard =E2=80=94= but I still > > > believe in the name TxAuth. = We=E2=80=99re moving > > > beyond OAuth, and taking the = process of > > > getting an authorization delegated = to > > > the client software as a = multi-step, > > > multi-party transaction is, I = believe, > > > the key insight that=E2=80=99s = letting us move > > > beyond OAuth=E2=80=99s limitations = here. It=E2=80=99s > > > not just about going to the AS = first =E2=80=94 > > > we had that in OAuth 1 and we=E2=80=99= re > > > patching that into OAuth 2 with = PAR.. I > > > really think it=E2=80=99s about = the transaction > > > at the core.. ____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > OAuth 2.0 had multi-step, multi-party. > > > TxAuth extends that.____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > I think the big shift is going to the = AS. > > > This enables the request to be richer = with > > > JSON, instead of name/value pairs = parameters > > > in a URI. It allows the client and AS = to > > > negotiate, and to short circuit having = to > > > redirect the user to the AS. PAR does = some > > > of this, but it is constrained by = having to > > > do it in the OAuth 2.0 context.____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > My concern is that the protocol is = MUCH MORE > > > than a transaction. While the initial > > > interaction between client, AS, user = and RO > > > is a transaction. The protocol also = covers > > > the client and RS interactions. The = access > > > token refreshes. Access token = revocation. > > > Access token introspection. As = described in > > > the charter, there is a whole = lifecycle, > > > that consists of multiple=20 > > > transactions.____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > From > > > https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transaction:____ = > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > Definition of /transaction/____ > > >=20 > > > *1a**: *something transacted > > > = >/especially/ *: = *an > > > exchange or transfer > > > = > of > > > goods, services, or > > > fundselectronic /transactions/____ > > >=20 > > > *b: transactions*/ plural/ *: *the = often > > > published record of the meeting of a = society > > > or association____ > > >=20 > > > *2a**: *an act, process, or instance > > > of transacting > > > =20 > > > >____ > > >=20 > > > *b**: *a communicative action or = activity > > > involving two parties or things that > > > reciprocally affect or influence each=20= > > > other____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > Calling the protocol a transaction = will > > > confusing to people.____ > > >=20 > > > ____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > Having come of age in the = 1990=E2=80=99s, I have > > > particular dislike for XAuth. It = sounds > > > too =E2=80=9CX-TREME=E2=80=9D and = =E2=80=9CX-CITING=E2=80=9D, and if you > > > read either of those with a = growling > > > yell in your head then you know = exactly > > > what I=E2=80=99m talking = about.____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > In case you are confused, this is not = a > > > childhood trauma support group. = :)____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > Unlike "X-TREME" or "X-CITING", XAuth = is > > > using the "X" as a placeholder. X-Men, = Xbox, > > > X-Factor, X-files. ____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > =20 > > > = https://www.businessinsider.com/the-indisputable-power-of-brand-x-2012 = > > > -4____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > =20 > > > = https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/358181/whats-the-purpose-o = > > > f-using-letter-x-or-x-as-a-suffix-in-brand-names____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > ____ > > >=20 > > > And to Dick=E2=80=99s rationale = for the name > > > below, I absolutely do NOT see = this work > > > as =E2=80=9COAuth with all the = extra features=E2=80=9D. > > > I think that does a disservice to = the > > > kind of change we have an = opportunity to > > > make here. ____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > =46rom the charter ____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > "It will expand upon the uses = cases > > > currently supported by OAuth 2.0 = and > > > OpenID Connect (itself an = extension of > > > OAuth 2.0)"____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > Which sounds pretty similar to = =E2=80=9COAuth with > > > all the extra features=E2=80=9D____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > While I think XAuth captures what we = are > > > doing, a placeholder name would be > > > preferable to an incorrect descriptive = name > > > such as TxAuth.____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > For example, XYZ is a good placeholder = name. > > > Or XYZAuth. Let's not mislead = people.____ > > >=20 > > > ____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > =E2=80=94 Justin____ > > >=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > ____ > > >=20 > > > On Mar 16, 2020, at 7:04 PM, = Dick > > > Hardt > > > >> > > > wrote:____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > Hello everyone____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > I prompted a thread around the = name > > > of the protocol a while = back:____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > =20 > > > = https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/txauth/ZVQVbHt4ADqehKrBDXOrTr_s_ = > > > wc/____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > As Justin stated "naming is=20 > > > hard"____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > Wearing my marketing hat I = want to > > > ensure that the name will be > > > perceived properly in the = broader > > > community.____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > A recent example that comes to = mind > > > are the privacy related works = on the > > > browser storage API. Given = that > > > name, one would think that it = is > > > local storage. It is actually = about > > > browser cookies.____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > Justin discussed his reasons = for > > > TxAuth in the thread above = (and I'm > > > sure in other places)____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > I chose XAuth in my draft to = reflect > > > the eXtensibility goal that we = have > > > over OAuth -- and XAuth is = OAuth but > > > with an X to reflect all the = extra > > > features. =3D)____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > Other suggestions?____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > This will be an agenda item in = the > > > BoF -- but the name will NOT = be an > > > open discussion item -- we = will > > > summarize what has been = discussed on > > > the list and perhaps do a poll = of > > > options presented unless = consensus > > > is obvious from this = thread.____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > /Dick____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > =E1=90=A7____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > --=20 > > > Txauth mailing list > > > Txauth@ietf.org = > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth____ = > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > --=20 > > > Txauth mailing list > > > Txauth@ietf.org = > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth = > > >=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > --=20 > > > >Ping = Identity > = =20 > > > Brian Campbell =20 > > > Distinguished Engineer =20 > > > bcampbell@pingidentity.com = > = =20 > > > w: +1 720.317.2061 =20 > > > c: +1 303.918..9415=20 > > >=20 > > > Connect with us: Glassdoor logo > > > = > > > 07.11,24.htm> LinkedIn logo = > > > > twitter logo > > > > facebook logo > > > > youtube logo > > > > Blog logo > > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > = > > > = /ping-6-2-assets/Assets/faqs/en/consumer-attitudes-post-breach-era-337 > > > = 5.pdf?id%3Db6322a80-f285-11e3-ac10-0800200c9a66&source=3Dgmail&ust=3D15416= > > > = 93608526000&usg=3DAFQjCNGBl5cPHCUAVKGZ_NnpuFj5PHGSUQ> > > > entity.com/en/events/d/identify-2019.html = > > > > = m/content/dam/ping-6-2-assets/Assets/Misc/en/3464-consumersurvey-execs > > > ummary.pdf>> > > /www.pingidentity.com/en/events/e/rsa.html = > > > > om/en/lp/e/enabling-work-from-home-with-MFA.html> > > >=20 > > > /If you=E2=80=99re not a current customer, click here=20 > > > = > > > source=3DEmail&utm_campaign=3DWF-COVID19-New-EMSIG> for a more = relevant=20 > > > offer./ > > >=20 > > > /CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email may contain confidential and=20= > > > privileged material for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). = Any=20 > > > review, use, distribution or disclosure by others is strictly=20 > > > prohibited.. 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On Apr = 13, 2020, at 6:25 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> wrote:

Because the proposed starting points and likely outcomes aren=E2=80=99= t transactional, I believe we shouldn=E2=80=99t confuse people by = calling it Transactional Authorization or using the abbreviation = =E2=80=9CTx=E2=80=9D.
I=E2=80=99m not sure what you mean. XYZ, as a starting = point, is transactional by design. I have given several talks on this = topic, which you have attended. And in fact I would argue that the = entire intent-registration pattern, upon which both proposals are = predicated, is transactional in nature as well. As Dick was kind enough = to pull the definition earlier in this thread, let me restate that = definition:

= a communicative action or activity involving two parties or = things that reciprocally affect or influence each other

The entire act of = getting the delegation to occur is a transaction between the client and = the AS (or equivalent component). The client begins the transaction by = talking to the AS, the AS continues the transaction by optionally = getting the user involved, and the client continues the transaction when = the interaction portion is completed, and so on. While this is = intentionally built into XYZ, I would argue that even XAuth has this = feature.

So = with that in mind, I don=E2=80=99t think it=E2=80=99s misleading or = confusing at all. I=E2=80=99m not sure why people keep referring to it = as =E2=80=9Cincorrect=E2=80=9D. 

Yes, there are other definitions of = =E2=80=9Ctransaction=E2=80=9D that do not apply =E2=80=94 words have = more than one definition, and that happens.

Since you asked, I will gladly offer my specific = thoughts on your suggestions.

 
I haven=E2=80=99t heard responses to any of = these brainstormed names yet:
  • Disaggregated Authorization (DisAuth)
  • Componentized Authorization = (CompAuth)

Neither of these capture what=E2=80=99s different = about this. The components are largely the same as they were in OAuth 2, = UMA, OIDC, SAML, and related protocols. The componentization isn=E2=80=99t= the new thing here, so I don=E2=80=99t think these are that good a = fit.

  • Build-Your-Own Authorization (BYOAuth)
  • Do-It-Yourself Authorization = (DIYAuth)

These aren=E2=80=99t really what we=E2=80=99re = after at all. In fact, the proposed charter is specifically about = building a protocol instead of a framework, so either of these are very = misleading.

  • Refactored Authorization (ReAuth or = RefAuth)

This doesn=E2=80=99t offer any description of = what=E2=80=99s gone on here. Refactored from what? Additionally  I = don=E2=80=99t believe this name flows naturally from the proposed = shortenings.  =E2=80=9CReAuth=E2=80=9D sounds like = =E2=80=9CReAuthorization=E2=80=9D and/or =E2=80=9CReAuthentication=E2=80=9D= , where as =E2=80=9CRefAuth=E2=80=9D sounds like it should stand for = =E2=80=9Creference=E2=80=9D instead of =E2=80=9Crefactored=E2=80=9D.
=
 
To those = I=E2=80=99ll now add:
  • Alternative Authorization Protocol (AAP)
  • Alternative Authorization (AltAuth)
  • Reimagined Authorization = (ReAuth)

All of these are problematic for the same reason = that =E2=80=9CNewAuth=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9CNgAuth=E2=80=9D are. They = just say =E2=80=9Cit=E2=80=99s new=E2=80=9D and don=E2=80=99t say = anything about it. And if we=E2=80=99re successful, it won=E2=80=99t be = =E2=80=9Cnew" while people are still using it.

  • Back-end Based Authorization = (BBAuth)

This is a start in concept, as it starts to talk = about what=E2=80=99s different, but =E2=80=9CBBAuth=E2=80=9D is already = something =E2=80=94 one of the predecessors of OAuth 1.0 was = =E2=80=9CBBAuth=E2=80=9D from Flickr (later Yahoo). Also, note that in = this historical context, the expansion is =E2=80=9CBrowser Based = Auth=E2=80=9D, which could happen here again. As one of the key aspects = of what people are interested is decoupling from the browser, we don=E2=80= =99t want to have echos of that, even if the name weren=E2=80=99t = already historically taken.

 
And for = fun, there=E2=80=99s still:
  • Dismembered Authorization
Plus:
  • ZZAuth = =E2=80=93 The Protocol

Please, no.

 
Surely others must have other good ideas than don=E2=80=99t = use the misleading term =E2=80=9CTransactional=E2=80=9D or its = abbreviation =E2=80=9CTx=E2=80=9D.
 

Again, as above, this is not misleading. That = said, if there=E2=80=99s a better idea, I=E2=80=99m open to it. But for = all of the reasons I keep repeating now, TxAuth is decent and I = haven=E2=80=99t seen a better one.

Thanks,

 =E2=80=94 Justin

          &nb= sp;            = ;            &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;       Cheers,
          &nb= sp;            = ;            &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;       -- Mike
 
From: Txauth <txauth-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf = Of Justin = Richer
Sent: Monday, April 13, 2020 = 11:43 AM
To: Vijay IETF <vijay.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc: Matthew A. Miller <linuxwolf+ietf@outer-planes.net>; Lee McGovern <Lee_McGovern@swissre.com>; = Amanjeev Sethi <aj@amanjeev.com>; txauth@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Txauth] WG name: = TxAuth? XAuth? Something else?
 
I appreciate the brainstorming of names = here. 
 
I dislike names like =E2=80=9CNgAuth=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9CYAAP=E2= =80=9D or the like because they rely on this being =E2=80=9Cnew=E2=80=9D = and it=E2=80=99s only =E2=80=9Cnew=E2=80=9D right now. If we=E2=80=99re = successful and people are still talking about it in ten years then it = won=E2=80=99t be new anymore and the name will just seem = absurd. 
 
While we=E2=80=99re at it, we really can=E2=80=99t use = =E2=80=9CXAuth=E2=80=9D because it=E2=80=99s already been something for = 30 years: the X11 authentication command: https://www.x.org/archive/X11R6.8.1/doc/xauth.1.html
 
My project=E2=80=99s name =E2=80=9CXYZ=E2= =80=9D would also be a bad name for a lasting protocol, as it=E2=80=99s = too generic on its own. 
 
I still argue that we should call the protocol and the = working group TxAuth. Not only do I think the underlying = =E2=80=9Ctransactional authorization=E2=80=9D aspect is a key difference = from what=E2=80=99s come before (the nature of which I=E2=80=99ve = described many, many times on this list), if you go and search for the = term =E2=80=9Ctxauth=E2=80=9D you end up back at this mailing list and = the posts that people have made about it. 
 
 =E2=80=94 Justin


On Apr 10, 2020, at 9:22 AM, Vijay IETF <vijay.ietf@gmail.com> = wrote:
 
Assuming we are still at = it...
 
NgAuth (Next Gen Auth).
 
On Tue, 24 Mar 2020 at = 19:00, Amanjeev Sethi <aj@amanjeev.com> wrote:
TOI (as in french = you): TxAuth's OAuth's Improvement

On Tue, = Mar 24, 2020, at 4:25 AM, Lee McGovern wrote:
> = YAAP 
> 
> Yet another authX protocol
> 
> 
> = -----Original Message-----
> From: Txauth <txauth-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Matthew A. = Miller
> Sent: Monday, March 23, 2020 3:06 PM
> To: txauth@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Txauth] WG name: TxAuth? XAuth? Something = else?
> 
> On = 20/03/23 13:49, Brian Campbell wrote:
> > YAAAAS - = Yet Another Authorization And Authentication Specification
> > > 
> +1
> 
> 
> - = m&m
> 
> Matthew = A. Miller
> 
> > On = Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 1:39 PM Mike Jones 
> > = <Michael.Jones=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc..ietf.org
> > <mailto:40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org>> wrote:
> > > >     In brainstorming mode=E2=80=A6___= _
> > 
> = >       * Disaggregated Authorization = (DisAuth)____
> >       * = Componentized Authorization (CompAuth)____
> >  =      * Build-Your-Own Authorization (BYOAuth)____
> >       * Do-It-Yourself = Authorization (DIYAuth)____
> >      =  * Refactored Authorization (ReAuth or RefAuth)____
> > > >     __ __
> = > 
>= >     And for fun=E2=80=A6____
> = > 
>= >       * Dismembered Authorization____
> > > >     __ __
> = > 
>= >    =             &n= bsp;           &nbs= p;            =             &n= bsp;      -- Mike____
> = > 
>= >     __ __
> > 
> = >     *From:* Txauth <txauth-bounces@ietf.org
> >  =    <mailto:txauth-bounces@ietf.org>> *On Behalf Of *David = Skaife
> >     *Sent:* Saturday, = March 21, 2020 11:22 AM
> >     *To:* = Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu <mailto:jricher@mit.edu>>
> >     *Cc:* Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com> >     <mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>>; txauth@ietf.org
> >     <mailto:txauth@ietf.org>; Dick = Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com
> >    =  <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>>
> = >     *Subject:* Re: [Txauth] WG name: TxAuth? XAuth? = Something 
> > else?____
> > 
> = >     __ __
> > 
> = >     I think we're saying the same thing with regards = to the working
> >     group name - I = was saying it *isn't* particularly important in
> = >     comparison to the name of the protocol (which = obviously is very
> >    =  important).____
> > 
> = >     __ __
> > 
> = >     On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 6:18 PM Justin Richer = <jricher@mit.edu
> >     <mailto:jricher@mit.edu>> = wrote:____
> > 
> = >         I disagree on the working group = name being super important.
> >      =    Nobody knows that the OAuth WG is actually named =E2=80=9CThe= Web
> >        =  Authorization Protocol Working Group=E2=80=9D, and nobody = cares.____
> > 
> = >         __ __
> = > 
>= >         My proposal is that we name the = protocol we work on =E2=80=9CTxAuth=E2=80=9D
> = >         (and keep the mailing list), and = that we name the working group
> >    =      something like =E2=80=9CNext Generation Web = Authorization Protocol=E2=80=9D to
> >    =      say what we=E2=80=99re doing.____
> = > 
>= >         __ __
> = > 
>= >          -- Justin____
> > > > 
> = > 
>= >         ____
> > 
> = >             On Mar 21, 2020, at = 2:08 PM, David Skaife
> >        =      <blue.ringed.octopus.guy@gmail.com
> = >             <mailto:blue.ringed.octopus.guy@gmail.com>> wrote:____
> > > >            =  __ __
> > 
> = >             Just to throw in = another suggestion, to address Yaron's
> >  =            point about some people = mistakenly thinking that "Auth"
> >    =          stands for authentication rather than = authorization, how
> >        =      about naming the working group *AuthZ*____
> > > >            =  Nice and simple, and it makes it clear what the group is
> >            =  focused on.
> > 
> = >             I think the name of = the actual protocol that we produce is
> >  =            far, far more important that = the name of the working group -
> >    =          and the name of that protocol doesn't = need to correlate to
> >        =      the WG name. Also, we have much more time before we = need to
> >            =  decide on the name of that protocol, even if the
> = >             initial draft = documents that we produce end up using a
> >  =            placeholder name.____
> > > >            =  __ __
> > 
> = >             On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 = at 5:44 PM Justin Richer
> >      =        <jricher@mit.edu <mailto:jricher@mit.edu>> = wrote:____
> > 
> = >                 As you = can see in the email you replied to, that is not
> = >                 even = close to what I said. I believe it is a
> >  =                transaction, and = therefore, I do not agree that it=E2=80=99s not
> = >                 a = transaction.____
> > 
> = >                =  __ __
> > 
> = >                 But if = we take =E2=80=9CTransactional=E2=80=9D out of the WG title, I
> >              =    won=E2=80=99t be offended. If we just call it =E2=80=9CTxAuth= =E2=80=9D without
> >        =          expansion, then that=E2=80=99s = fine.____
> > 
> = >                =  __ __
> > 
> = >                 I do = not like calling it =E2=80=9CXAuth=E2=80=9D. The term =E2=80=9CTAuth" = was
> >            =      floated during naming the list, but rejected = because
> >            =      (among other reasons) it would likely be = awkwardly
> >          =        pronounced as =E2=80=9Ctowth=E2=80=9D or = something. TxAuth reads as =E2=80=9CTee
> >  =                - ex - oth=E2=80=9D= more naturally, which was the intent. ____
> = > 
>= >                =  __ __
> > 
> = >                 So how = about we take a page from the OAuth working group
> = >                 and = name it:____
> > 
> = >                =  __ __
> > 
> = >                 TxAuth = - Next Generation Web Authorization Protocol
> = >                =  Working Group____
> > 
> = >                =  __ __
> > 
> = >                =  __ __
> > 
> = >                =   =E2=80=94 Justin____
> > 
> = > 
>= > 
> >              =    ____
> > 
> = >                  =    On Mar 21, 2020, at 1:15 PM, Dick Hardt
> = >                  =    <dick.hardt@gmail.com <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>>
> = >                  =    wrote:____
> > 
> = >                  =    __ __
> > 
> = >                  =    To clarify -- you agree it is not a transaction, and
> >              =        we will take the word transaction out of the = WG
> >            =          title?____
> = > 
>= >                  =    __ __
> > 
> = >                  =    On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 5:53 PM Justin Richer
> >              =        <jricher@mit.edu <mailto:jricher@mit.edu>> 
> > = wrote:____
> > 
> = >                  =        Dick, thanks for pulling the definitions 
> > = up:____
> > 
> = >                  =        __ __
> > 
> = >                  =        > a communicative action or activity = involving
> >          =                two parties or = things that reciprocally affect
> >    =                     =  or influence each other____
> > 
> = >                  =        __ __
> > 
> = >                  =        This is the kind of thing that I had in = mind.
> >            =              The client and the AS = are in a conversation over
> >      =                   =  time that each one contributes to and each
> = >                  =        changes. ____
> = > 
>= >                  =        __ __
> > 
> = >                  =        Also =E2=80=94 we can just as easily decide = that
> >            =              =E2=80=9CTxAuth=E2=80=9D = doesn=E2=80=99t stand for =E2=80=9CTransactional Auth=E2=80=9D
> >              =            much the same way we decided = that the =E2=80=9CO=E2=80=9D in
> >    =                     =  =E2=80=9COAuth=E2=80=9D doesn=E2=80=99t stand for =E2=80=9COpen=E2=80= =9D anymore. ____
> > 
> = >                  =        __ __
> > 
> = >                  =        None of the arguments below in favor of = XAuth
> >            =              have made me like that = name better. If it=E2=80=99s just
> >    =                     =  a =E2=80=9Cplaceholder=E2=80=9D name, then why come up with
> >              =            something new?____
> > > >              =            __ __
> = > 
>= >                  =         =E2=80=94 Justin____
> = > 
>= > 
> > > >              =            ____
> = > 
>= >                  =            On Mar 20, 2020, at 3:32 PM, = Dick Hardt
> >          =                   =  <dick.hardt@gmail.com
> >    =                     =      <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>> wrote:____
> = > 
>= >                  =            __ __
> = > 
>= >                  =            __ __
> = > 
>= >                  =            __ __
> = > 
>= >                  =            __ __
> = > 
>= >                  =            not a transaction - there are = multiple
> >          =                   =  transactions____
> > 
> = >                  =            __ __
> = > 
>= >                  =            backchannel innovation is = combination of
> >        =                     =  here is who I am, and here is what I want to
> = >                  =            do____
> = > 
>= >                  =            __ __
> = > 
>= >                  =            __ __
> = > 
>= >                  =            childhood trauma therapy = group____
> > 
> = >                  =            __ __
> = > 
>= >                  =            __ __
> = > 
>= >                  =            __ __
> = > 
>= >                  =            On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 6:56 PM = Justin
> >            =                  Richer = <jricher@mit.edu
> >              =                <mailto:jricher@mit.edu>> = wrote:____
> > 
> = >                  =                Yes, naming = things is hard =E2=80=94 but I still
> >  =                     =            believe in the name TxAuth. = We=E2=80=99re moving
> >        =                     =      beyond OAuth, and taking the process of
> >              =                   =  getting an authorization delegated to
> = >                  =                the client = software as a multi-step,
> >      =                     =        multi-party transaction is, I believe,
> >              =                    the = key insight that=E2=80=99s letting us move
> >  =                     =            beyond OAuth=E2=80=99s = limitations here. It=E2=80=99s
> >    =                     =          not just about going to the AS first = =E2=80=94
> >          =                     =    we had that in OAuth 1 and we=E2=80=99re
> = >                  =                patching that = into OAuth 2 with PAR.. I
> >      =                     =        really think it=E2=80=99s about the = transaction
> >          =                     =    at the core.. ____
> > 
> = >                  =            __ __
> = > 
>= >                  =            OAuth 2.0 had multi-step, = multi-party.
> >          =                   =  TxAuth extends that.____
> > 
> = >                  =            __ __
> = > 
>= >                  =            I think the big shift is going = to the AS.
> >          =                   =  This enables the request to be richer with
> = >                  =            JSON, instead of name/value = pairs parameters
> >        =                     =  in a URI. It allows the client and AS to
> = >                  =            negotiate, and to short circuit = having to
> >          =                   =  redirect the user to the AS. PAR does some
> = >                  =            of this, but it is constrained = by having to
> >          =                    do = it in the OAuth 2.0 context.____
> > 
> = >                  =            __ __
> = > 
>= >                  =            My concern is that the protocol = is MUCH MORE
> >          =                   =  than a transaction. While the initial
> = >                  =            interaction between client, AS, = user and RO
> >          =                    is = a transaction. The protocol also covers
> >  =                     =        the client and RS interactions. The = access
> >            =                  token = refreshes. Access token revocation.
> >    =                     =      Access token introspection. As described in
> >              =                the charter, = there is a whole lifecycle,
> >      =                     =    that consists of multiple 
> > = transactions.____
> > 
> = >                  =            __ __
> = > 
>= >                  =            From
> = > https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transaction:____=
> > 
> = >                  =            __ __
> = > 
>= > 
> >              =                   =  Definition of /transaction/____
> > 
> = >                  =           =  *1a**: *something transacted
> = >                  =            <https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transacted>/e= specially/ *: *an
> >      =                     =    exchange or transfer
> >  =                     =        <https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transfer>&nbs= p;of
> >            =                  goods, = services, or
> >          =                   =  fundselectronic /transactions/____
> = > 
>= >                  =           =  *b: transactions*/ plural/ *: *the often
> >              =                published record = of the meeting of a society
> >      =                     =    or association____
> > 
> = >                  =            *2a**: *an act, process, = or instance
> >          =                   =  of transacting
> >      =                     =    
> > <https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transacting>_= ___
> > 
> = >                  =            *b**: *a communicative = action or activity
> >        =                     =  involving two parties or things that
> >  =                     =        reciprocally affect or influence each 
> > = other____
> > 
> = >                  =            __ __
> = > 
>= >                  =            Calling the protocol a = transaction will
> >        =                     =  confusing to people.____
> > 
> = >                  =             ____
> = > 
>= >                  =                __ __
> > > >              =                   =  Having come of age in the 1990=E2=80=99s, I have
> = >                  =                particular = dislike for XAuth. It sounds
> >      =                     =        too =E2=80=9CX-TREME=E2=80=9D and = =E2=80=9CX-CITING=E2=80=9D, and if you
> >  =                     =            read either of those with a = growling
> >          =                     =    yell in your head then you know exactly
> = >                  =                what I=E2=80=99m = talking about.____
> > 
> = >                  =            __ __
> = > 
>= >                  =            In case you are confused, this = is not a
> >          =                   =  childhood trauma support group.  :)____
>= > 
> >              =                __ __
> > > >              =                Unlike "X-TREME" = or "X-CITING", XAuth is
> >      =                     =    using the "X" as a placeholder. X-Men, Xbox,
> >              =                X-Factor, = X-files. ____
> > 
> = >                  =            __ __
> = > 
>= >                  =            
> > https://www.businessinsider.com/the-indisputable-power-of-brand= -x-2012
> > -4____
> > 
> = >                  =            __ __
> = > 
>= >                  =            
> > https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/358181/whats-the-pu= rpose-o
> > = f-using-letter-x-or-x-as-a-suffix-in-brand-names____
> = > 
>= >                  =            __ __
> = > 
>= >                  =             ____
> = > 
>= >                  =                And to Dick=E2=80=99= s rationale for the name
> >      =                     =        below, I absolutely do NOT see this work
> >              =                    as = =E2=80=9COAuth with all the extra features=E2=80=9D.
> = >                  =                I think that does = a disservice to the
> >        =                     =      kind of change we have an opportunity to
> >              =                   =  make here. ____
> > 
> = >                  =            __ __
> = > 
>= >                  =            =46rom the charter ____
> > > >              =                __ __
> > > >              =                    "It = will expand upon the uses cases
> >    =                     =          currently supported by OAuth 2.0 = and
> >            =                     =  OpenID Connect (itself an extension of
> = >                  =                OAuth = 2.0)"____
> > 
> = >                  =            __ __
> = > 
>= >                  =            Which sounds pretty similar = to =E2=80=9COAuth with
> >      =                     =    all the extra features=E2=80=9D____
> = > 
>= >                  =            __ __
> = > 
>= >                  =            While I think XAuth captures = what we are
> >          =                   =  doing, a placeholder name would be
> >  =                     =        preferable to an incorrect descriptive = name
> >            =                  such as = TxAuth.____
> > 
> = >                  =            __ __
> = > 
>= >                  =            For example, XYZ is a good = placeholder name.
> >        =                     =  Or XYZAuth. Let's not mislead people.____
> = > 
>= >                  =             ____
> = > 
>= >                  =                __ __
> > > >              =                   =   =E2=80=94 Justin____
> > 
> = > 
>= > 
> >              =                   =  ____
> > 
> = >                  =                    On = Mar 16, 2020, at 7:04 PM, Dick
> >    =                     =              Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com
> >              =                     =    <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>>
> = >                  =                   =  wrote:____
> > 
> = >                  =                   =  __ __
> > 
> = >                  =                   =  Hello everyone____
> > 
> = >                  =                   =  __ __
> > 
> = >                  =                    I = prompted a thread around the name
> >    =                     =              of the protocol a while = back:____
> > 
> = >                  =                   =  __ __
> > 
> = >                  =                    
> > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/txauth/ZVQVbHt4ADqehKrBDX= OrTr_s_
> > wc/____
> > 
> = >                  =                   =  __ __
> > 
> = >                  =                    As = Justin stated "naming is 
> > = hard"____
> > 
> = >                  =                   =  __ __
> > 
> = >                  =                   =  Wearing my marketing hat I want to
> >  =                     =                ensure that the = name will be
> >          =                     =        perceived properly in the broader
> >              =                     =    community.____
> > 
> = >                  =                   =  __ __
> > 
> = >                  =                    A = recent example that comes to mind
> >    =                     =              are the privacy related = works on the
> >          =                     =        browser storage API. Given that
> >              =                     =    name, one would think that it is
> = >                  =                   =  local storage. It is actually about
> >  =                     =                browser = cookies.____
> > 
> = >                  =                   =  __ __
> > 
> = >                  =                   =  Justin discussed his reasons for
> >  =                     =                TxAuth in the = thread above (and I'm
> >        =                     =          sure in other places)____
> > > >              =                     =    __ __
> > 
> = >                  =                    I = chose XAuth in my draft to reflect
> >    =                     =              the eXtensibility goal = that we have
> >          =                     =        over OAuth -- and XAuth is OAuth but
> >              =                     =    with an X to reflect all the extra
> = >                  =                   =  features. =3D)____
> > 
> = >                  =                   =  __ __
> > 
> = >                  =                   =  Other suggestions?____
> > 
> = >                  =                   =  __ __
> > 
> = >                  =                   =  This will be an agenda item in the
> >  =                     =                BoF -- but the = name will NOT be an
> >        =                     =          open discussion item -- we will
> >              =                     =    summarize what has been discussed on
> = >                  =                    the = list and perhaps do a poll of
> >    =                     =              options presented unless = consensus
> >          =                     =        is obvious from this thread.____
> > > >              =                     =    __ __
> > 
> = >                  =                   =  /Dick____
> > 
> = >                  =                   =  __ __
> > 
> = >                  =                   =  __ __
> > 
> = >                  =                   =  __ __
> > 
> = >                  =                   =  __ __
> > 
> = >                  =                   =  __ __
> > 
> = >                  =                   =  =E1=90=A7____
> > 
> = >                  =                __ __
> > > >              =            __ __
> = > 
>= >                =  __ __
> > 
> = >                =  -- 
> >              =    Txauth mailing list
> >    =              Txauth@ietf.org <mailto:Txauth@ietf.org>
> >              =    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth____
> > > >         __ __
> > > >     -- 
> = >     Txauth mailing list
> = >     Txauth@ietf.org <mailto:Txauth@ietf.org>
> >     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
> > > > 
> = > 
>= > -- 
> > <https://www.pingidentity.com>Ping Identity <https://www.pingidentity.com>      =     
> > Brian Campbell      
> > = Distinguished Engineer      
> = > bcampbell@pingidentity.com <mailto:bcampbell@pingidentity.com>      
> > w: = +1 720.317.2061  
> > c: = +1 303.918..9415 
> > > > Connect with us:    Glassdoor logo
> > <https://www.glassdoor.com/Overview/Working-at-Ping-Identity-EI_= IE3809
> > 07.11,24.htm> LinkedIn logo <https://www.linkedin.com/company/21870>
> > twitter logo
> > <https://twitter.com/pingidentity>  facebook = logo
> > <https://www.facebook.com/pingidentitypage> youtube = logo
> > <https://www.youtube.com/user/PingIdentityTV> Blog = logo
> > <https://www.pingidentity.com/en/blog.html> 
> = > 
>= > <https://www.google.com/url?q=3Dhttps://www.pingidentity.com/con= tent/dam
> > = /ping-6-2-assets/Assets/faqs/en/consumer-attitudes-post-breach-era-337
> > = 5.pdf?id%3Db6322a80-f285-11e3-ac10-0800200c9a66&source=3Dgmail&ust= =3D15416
> > = 93608526000&usg=3DAFQjCNGBl5cPHCUAVKGZ_NnpuFj5PHGSUQ><https://www.pingid
> > entity.com/en/events/d/identify-2019.html><https://www.pingidentity.co
> > = m/content/dam/ping-6-2-assets/Assets/Misc/en/3464-consumersurvey-execs
> > ummary.pdf><https://www.pingidentity.com/en/events/e/rsa.html><ht= tps:/
> > /www.pingidentity.com/en/events/e/rsa.html><https://www.pingidentity.c
> > = om/en/lp/e/enabling-work-from-home-with-MFA.html>
> = > 
>= > /If you=E2=80=99re not a current customer, click here 
> > = <https://www.pingidentity.com/en/lp/e/work-from-home-sso-mfa.htm= l?utm_
> > = source=3DEmail&utm_campaign=3DWF-COVID19-New-EMSIG> for a = more relevant 
> > offer./
> > 
> > = /CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email may contain confidential and 
> > = privileged material for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). = Any 
> = > review, use, distribution or disclosure by others is strictly 
> > = prohibited..  If you have received this communication in error, = please 
> > notify the sender immediately by e-mail and delete = the message and any 
> > file attachments from your computer. Thank you./
> > > 
> --
> Txauth mailing list
> Txauth@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
> 
> 
> This e-mail, including attachments, is intended for the = person(s) or 
> company named and may contain confidential and/or = legally privileged 
> information.
> 
> = Unauthorized disclosure, copying or use of this information may be 
> = unlawful and is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, 
> please = delete this message and notify the sender.
> All = incoming and outgoing e-mail messages are stored in the Swiss Re 
> = Electronic Message Repository.
> If you do not wish the = retention of potentially private e-mails by 
> Swiss = Re, we strongly advise you not to use the Swiss Re e-mail account 
> for any = private, non-business related communications.
> -- 
> Txauth = mailing list
> Txauth@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>

-- 
Txauth = mailing list
Txauth@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth

= --Apple-Mail=_8436C2EF-70C6-478D-9D2A-167BAC4D1DB5-- From nobody Mon Apr 13 16:37:59 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: txauth@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: txauth@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A7153A20FC for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 16:37:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.267 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.267 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.168, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=microsoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id y37fOKwvoeiI for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 16:37:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from NAM06-DM3-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-dm3nam06hn0211.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.54.211]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 263083A20F7 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 16:37:52 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=c60LaK2Iwxutyrs+fO+oJfmkcJGAYrKNUQc0Ai5FQ8D0q5aowWmobwUAW1eLrOBH0U+ytqioH7FWGMr9ZugWz/piLmS8H3oIXiqQ7yV1Z46lrxtlmJD3KQj7qMtiJVNTLJeu0hUWWcTdam0JyCOQ3kD02dLOx/FOfYp8D0vzOJYoNwgZ3LEhIzTDNTabjvccgEu7BV295CR33WG12k3+TnLdAGwHGnCGK97E5AdrK2ajfoJEWOmvbcQch3zdB901NdLzYdh4y15Qrczfg22H3Ws1GixvJ5OVUBF5mzzKTXB4vLfpKX5EMg4hPo1LGVN+G7nRZGGeKaNCVjZU4fIVXw== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=Nrt2amoWSCvKAKPzXIZV+3ETWopbiemMzBnJjn+FjTQ=; b=V/P0kSF43VFkmB2SONEWg44fzI5LhiDFlmnutgSRc/MVwXIelW0P+zf3ucpP2NAgMmrjSkTsAEQx9t302+YM5Vke0YIze98M3xSeS7qaVgCbTMatoBxhsh/EOR0/Od6bkbFGSnfWzEBmO4kU+utaj1wxDZbKcBYpY29qxYLggYqW4s/u5MCXABMhdpPx6epzJIDbr2szjEa/WSQDLlIEpgHXIqpqiJNMyGLpNem8IKlXOz8jljpypf8GBhNkRiZecZVPR+uL6XxyD9/fFfOJlPDCA0MC8mUPNpL6H8DRYWgtMqzcvR6T/+3KdPa+q0tDHNofKyrLa1o0nwHa/emcEw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=microsoft.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=microsoft.com; dkim=pass header.d=microsoft.com; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=selector2; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=Nrt2amoWSCvKAKPzXIZV+3ETWopbiemMzBnJjn+FjTQ=; b=geHP8Gx7u3+67FVA0al9y2GVXMnCv4ufr3RKk+cwuNkhtHyiQJTqM/niCqfOStDvJEdc2e9OHC/5AmzMJ+L3OYjf9sSsKvjOYKgy6p9qIGftutm8gm/2ifxzuH02dZz88S3QO7bP0Et1X7slOb2NF6cjII9NnsJMHdaRG54h/yA= Received: from CH2PR00MB0679.namprd00.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:610:af::7) by CH2PR00MB0844.namprd00.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:610:6f::23) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2944.0; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 23:37:50 +0000 Received: from CH2PR00MB0679.namprd00.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::a4b2:4ca6:a9a7:a870]) by CH2PR00MB0679.namprd00.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::a4b2:4ca6:a9a7:a870%9]) with mapi id 15.20.2948.000; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 23:37:50 +0000 From: Mike Jones To: Justin Richer CC: Vijay IETF , "Matthew A. Miller" , Lee McGovern , Amanjeev Sethi , "txauth@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Txauth] WG name: TxAuth? XAuth? Something else? Thread-Index: AdYR7IoxnSYy/h4KTr+OkevaIz4m7w== Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 23:37:50 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: msip_labels: MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_ActionId=1e756fdc-2846-4f87-b5db-000098039c3a; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_ContentBits=0; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_Enabled=true; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_Method=Standard; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_Name=Internal; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_SetDate=2020-04-13T23:31:57Z; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_SiteId=72f988bf-86f1-41af-91ab-2d7cd011db47; authentication-results: mit.edu; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;mit.edu; dmarc=none action=none header.from=microsoft.com; x-originating-ip: [50.47.87.252] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-ht: Tenant x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 4bef2862-b946-42b8-2875-08d7e003ae0e x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: CH2PR00MB0844: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:3826; x-forefront-prvs: 037291602B x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:9; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:SPM; H:CH2PR00MB0679.namprd00.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:OSPM; SFTY:; SFS:(10001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1501; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: =?utf-8?B?ZEl1WWRQNGJZb3dDUHBSRUlhS1pNUkNVU04yelp0bmZna2dGRGVPYWFWM3hL?= =?utf-8?B?Q243VkhaU0tLYkFzak1tNzZ6bjJVQklqWjN6aENxd1B5L1lPa2pwRW5La3Zs?= =?utf-8?B?NkJ6bi9DU01aUG9CYUlSUkFSLzdsUDNBMm9OZVdOWlZva1QwQjdSeGQ2VURD?= =?utf-8?B?aG54SWdYaFF3YnJtSGFQUklZbUp0cWNqMERRUTEzTlVwQ1BZdGM3YUgxY2s2?= =?utf-8?B?Q0R4T1NqbXlHdjFxMzFGRGh2YlZaaUQwSzkxclJJQ0RDemZVVmluQUlCa1lL?= =?utf-8?B?YitLV09ENCsrTFdmd1p2N3dUdmVjMlRSZU9BTFphYk5Uam1lWWlKNERFOEpq?= =?utf-8?B?WkpsclZadm9kMUlPb2cxZmRYY2pva2ViaFNKUG04UjdXbEhLM1ZjMHpQZm1v?= =?utf-8?B?U0l2OWlyUTNuekE4WGZGMnMxd3h1NFBIZGh1c2xlRHRHYlpJZGxhODdwbjhm?= =?utf-8?B?K0tsZGpxck1YOGpxK2lsakdoQWZpQy9wb09NV0FkaDBPZzJhSzJtWUFzV3dh?= =?utf-8?B?UUdoQ1IrWHBMOHBUaUZ6L3lEYkhMdEJzSkg5TGcwZzRKWHVjdzVweUV1VTlV?= =?utf-8?B?Q21uSFM1bWlQYnRpWG5GejNubUFDYU9zeHB6cUxZVHR2Tng5cndHaEUrSTgr?= =?utf-8?B?RW8rS01CMzR6VVM0TC9TUDk5cWM4WDRBOUN5TzFMME1mWDlpcjczSHgzK2RK?= =?utf-8?B?eWxPblh0eEpodVQ0RDVzdVB6OWtUa3ZpQ0hpSlhVYldHZTVtVWVpUDZCazZK?= =?utf-8?B?WXZvWWRNWXkzSFl4S3pJNmhxYXZkbVkvZVY3SGxzV3FHVml4YWorRE1jbVFR?= =?utf-8?B?c3BtYTVnUzRaQ3dDQUdCYlNmSk9wUmNWQ0dyb0ErcERyaVlwcVJycGRNMzNy?= =?utf-8?B?RTVzR0pFV25SczMraGpaUjZuaXYyMVI2ODJRMEhUenAzRnNScFA0RkFnbzFw?= =?utf-8?B?c2IveHV5ZUhneStSVUY3R1Qrc2l6NDBIa3B4Qk5Hak9XMk9FNUJtQXJJSDBL?= =?utf-8?B?OHJRTU1WMWF1dGRxbXJMWFY4cDRKaElVOEtPdGk3ZHRnT01rMU5PSkZILzdv?= =?utf-8?B?RlhiVWx0R01hRk5pVFhXOHprRG04eCtrTlFuT0FlNzdhL0lXTWo3dmVSZVRN?= =?utf-8?B?WjV6WWZ2RmlGUGFnL2N4ZzM3SHhzWDg4SmRDbDZXU2k0RE1PUDEyZVdZMHBB?= =?utf-8?B?YzQ2dkljbmV0dW9CRWxKZ1NiRlcvdy9ocWJjakN2NWs2eThPR0FZRDFkZVNs?= =?utf-8?B?QlJHQWdIM2hMNXJrdWxENTVyNllEdmd0eG0xbG00YzB4dTJpNWwwblJ5UVN5?= =?utf-8?Q?1JXBbwWia4GErLfUCqWdKoHvuzeYcja8ox?= x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata: I8MOa4CW/fP8x9EwQnYmFVG+UCgYCM+5woUMjhFaN8g3d+yxYG2Sf/sDD4dIrHmMch9F6YHdxDCc4VXIVF3VZtjjknhr3+/RrW5cwcjmwuh4bAlLZtNcax/7BgnRiP37QqGbOsg7iYhNlvveteX0vQ== x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_CH2PR00MB06797ABAAED62AD2C5430259F5DD0CH2PR00MB0679namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: microsoft.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 4bef2862-b946-42b8-2875-08d7e003ae0e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 13 Apr 2020 23:37:50.4268 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 72f988bf-86f1-41af-91ab-2d7cd011db47 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: xoLFWta77fxLAzhvCqI6m4bgk6yO1nFKAoFdiI/xs8PPWYh3pR2p5g8J7nzMSX4gm5BfhLsEGqFJGUAMGVqzHA== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CH2PR00MB0844 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Txauth] WG name: TxAuth? XAuth? Something else? 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--_000_CH2PR00MB06797ABAAED62AD2C5430259F5DD0CH2PR00MB0679namp_-- From nobody Mon Apr 13 18:25:05 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: txauth@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: txauth@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A60AA3A22B0 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 18:25:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0F49lcBEE0wD for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 18:24:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from outgoing.mit.edu (outgoing-auth-1.mit.edu [18.9.28.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5385A3A22AF for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 18:24:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.13] (static-71-174-62-56.bstnma.fios.verizon.net [71.174.62.56]) (authenticated bits=0) (User authenticated as jricher@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) by outgoing.mit.edu (8.14.7/8.12.4) with ESMTP id 03E1Opmd023499 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Mon, 13 Apr 2020 21:24:52 -0400 From: Justin Richer Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_39B008AA-0F77-49E2-98F0-6A4788C5B635" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 21:24:51 -0400 In-Reply-To: Cc: Vijay IETF , "Matthew A. Miller" , Lee McGovern , Amanjeev Sethi , "txauth@ietf.org" To: Mike Jones References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Txauth] WG name: TxAuth? XAuth? Something else? X-BeenThere: txauth@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 01:25:03 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_39B008AA-0F77-49E2-98F0-6A4788C5B635 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mike, thanks for pulling up the definition. I agree we don=E2=80=99t = want to redefine a well-used term, but I disagree that this is any = attempt to redefine the well-used term here; but instead I see us = applying it in a way that is consistent with the design goals of at = least one of the input documents (XYZ) and I would argue with the core = tenets of the solution space that we=E2=80=99re looking into.=20 While the definition that I quoted from Dick below is the best fit, I = still think that the units below are also appropriate. You begin the = transaction when the client starts things off. The transaction ends when = the token is issued. The token is the result of the transaction. While = it=E2=80=99s not a perfect 1:1 mapping, since we=E2=80=99re talking = about a multi-party protocol and not the fundamental definition here,=20 And I think with all of this argument it=E2=80=99s important to point = out that I=E2=80=99ve been using an adjective form the whole time: = Transactional Authorization. It=E2=80=99s an authorization that has = aspects and components and artifacts of a transaction. That doesn=E2=80=99= t mean that this protocol is a transaction in every aspect. Nor is it, I = would argue, authorization in every aspect. Just like =E2=80=9Cidentity=E2= =80=9D covers many, many things, so do these terms, and I think we=E2=80=99= re honestly hitting enough of them for it to make sense, still. I=E2=80=99m still fine with a *better* name if there is one to be had. = Naming things is hard. For some context, these are a few of the names that Roman and I tossed = around when we came up with TxAuth for the list name six months ago: TRAP: Transaction Authorization Protocol TRADE: Transaction Authorization and Delegation I=E2=80=99m not a big fan of either of those because I=E2=80=99m not big = on cute and pronounceable acronyms, personally. I could live with = =E2=80=9CTRADE=E2=80=9D though if there was a groundswell for it. =E2=80=94 Justin > On Apr 13, 2020, at 7:37 PM, Mike Jones = wrote: >=20 > The normal computer science use of the term =E2=80=9Ctransaction=E2=80=9D= involves a proposed state change that either commits or aborts = atomically. That doesn=E2=80=99t match your description of the term = below. It also doesn=E2=80=99t match the RFC 4949 = definition of the term (which does = match my paraphrase above). It reads: > =20 > $ transaction > 1. (I) A unit of interaction between an external entity and a > system, or between components within a system, that involves a > series of system actions or events. > =20 > 2. (O) "A discrete event between user and systems that supports = a > business or programmatic purpose." [M0404 = ] > =20 > Tutorial: To maintain secure state, transactions need to be > processed coherently and reliably. Usually, they need to be > designed to be atomic, consistent, isolated, and durable [Gray = ]: > - "Atomic": All actions and events that comprise the = transaction > are guaranteed to be completed successfully, or else the = result > is as if none at all were executed. > - "Consistent": The transaction satisfies correctness = constraints > defined for the data that is being processed. > - "Isolated": If two transactions are performed concurrently, > they do not interfere with each other, and it appears as = though > the system performs one at a time. > - "Durable": System state and transaction semantics survive > system failures. > =20 > We shouldn=E2=80=99t try to invent a new meaning for the = well-established computer science term =E2=80=9Ctransaction=E2=80=9D in = this working group. > =20 > -- Mike > =20 > P.S. On a personal note, I really continue to miss Jim Gray. > =20 > From: Justin Richer =20 > Sent: Monday, April 13, 2020 4:27 PM > To: Mike Jones > Cc: Vijay IETF ; Matthew A. Miller = ; Lee McGovern = ; Amanjeev Sethi ; = txauth@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Txauth] WG name: TxAuth? XAuth? Something else? > =20 > On Apr 13, 2020, at 6:25 PM, Mike Jones > wrote: > =20 > Because the proposed starting points and likely outcomes aren=E2=80=99t = transactional, I believe we shouldn=E2=80=99t confuse people by calling = it Transactional Authorization or using the abbreviation =E2=80=9CTx=E2=80= =9D. > =20 > I=E2=80=99m not sure what you mean. XYZ, as a starting point, is = transactional by design. I have given several talks on this topic, which = you have attended. And in fact I would argue that the entire = intent-registration pattern, upon which both proposals are predicated, = is transactional in nature as well. As Dick was kind enough to pull the = definition earlier in this thread, let me restate that definition: > =20 > a communicative action or activity involving two parties = or things that reciprocally affect or influence each other > =20 > The entire act of getting the delegation to occur is a transaction = between the client and the AS (or equivalent component). The client = begins the transaction by talking to the AS, the AS continues the = transaction by optionally getting the user involved, and the client = continues the transaction when the interaction portion is completed, and = so on. While this is intentionally built into XYZ, I would argue that = even XAuth has this feature. > =20 > So with that in mind, I don=E2=80=99t think it=E2=80=99s misleading or = confusing at all. I=E2=80=99m not sure why people keep referring to it = as =E2=80=9Cincorrect=E2=80=9D.=20 > =20 > Yes, there are other definitions of =E2=80=9Ctransaction=E2=80=9D that = do not apply =E2=80=94 words have more than one definition, and that = happens. > =20 > Since you asked, I will gladly offer my specific thoughts on your = suggestions. >=20 >=20 > =20 > I haven=E2=80=99t heard responses to any of these brainstormed names = yet: > Disaggregated Authorization (DisAuth) > Componentized Authorization (CompAuth) > =20 > Neither of these capture what=E2=80=99s different about this. The = components are largely the same as they were in OAuth 2, UMA, OIDC, = SAML, and related protocols. The componentization isn=E2=80=99t the new = thing here, so I don=E2=80=99t think these are that good a fit. >=20 >=20 > =20 > Build-Your-Own Authorization (BYOAuth) > Do-It-Yourself Authorization (DIYAuth) > =20 > These aren=E2=80=99t really what we=E2=80=99re after at all. In fact, = the proposed charter is specifically about building a protocol instead = of a framework, so either of these are very misleading. >=20 >=20 > =20 > Refactored Authorization (ReAuth or RefAuth) > =20 > This doesn=E2=80=99t offer any description of what=E2=80=99s gone on = here. Refactored from what? Additionally I don=E2=80=99t believe this = name flows naturally from the proposed shortenings. =E2=80=9CReAuth=E2=80= =9D sounds like =E2=80=9CReAuthorization=E2=80=9D and/or = =E2=80=9CReAuthentication=E2=80=9D, where as =E2=80=9CRefAuth=E2=80=9D = sounds like it should stand for =E2=80=9Creference=E2=80=9D instead of = =E2=80=9Crefactored=E2=80=9D. >=20 >=20 > =20 > =20 > To those I=E2=80=99ll now add: > Alternative Authorization Protocol (AAP) > Alternative Authorization (AltAuth) > Reimagined Authorization (ReAuth) > =20 > All of these are problematic for the same reason that =E2=80=9CNewAuth=E2= =80=9D or =E2=80=9CNgAuth=E2=80=9D are. They just say =E2=80=9Cit=E2=80=99= s new=E2=80=9D and don=E2=80=99t say anything about it. And if we=E2=80=99= re successful, it won=E2=80=99t be =E2=80=9Cnew" while people are still = using it. >=20 >=20 > =20 > Back-end Based Authorization (BBAuth) > =20 > This is a start in concept, as it starts to talk about what=E2=80=99s = different, but =E2=80=9CBBAuth=E2=80=9D is already something =E2=80=94 = one of the predecessors of OAuth 1.0 was =E2=80=9CBBAuth=E2=80=9D from = Flickr (later Yahoo). Also, note that in this historical context, the = expansion is =E2=80=9CBrowser Based Auth=E2=80=9D, which could happen = here again. As one of the key aspects of what people are interested is = decoupling from the browser, we don=E2=80=99t want to have echos of = that, even if the name weren=E2=80=99t already historically taken. >=20 >=20 > =20 > =20 > And for fun, there=E2=80=99s still: > Dismembered Authorization > Plus: > ZZAuth =E2=80=93 The Protocol > =20 > Please, no. >=20 >=20 > =20 > Surely others must have other good ideas than don=E2=80=99t use the = misleading term =E2=80=9CTransactional=E2=80=9D or its abbreviation = =E2=80=9CTx=E2=80=9D. > =20 > =20 > Again, as above, this is not misleading. That said, if there=E2=80=99s = a better idea, I=E2=80=99m open to it. But for all of the reasons I keep = repeating now, TxAuth is decent and I haven=E2=80=99t seen a better one. > =20 > Thanks, > =20 > =E2=80=94 Justin >=20 >=20 > Cheers, > -- Mike > =20 > From: Txauth > On Behalf Of Justin Richer > Sent: Monday, April 13, 2020 11:43 AM > To: Vijay IETF > > Cc: Matthew A. Miller >; Lee McGovern = >; Amanjeev = Sethi >; txauth@ietf.org = > Subject: Re: [Txauth] WG name: TxAuth? XAuth? Something else? > =20 > I appreciate the brainstorming of names here.=20 > =20 > I dislike names like =E2=80=9CNgAuth=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9CYAAP=E2=80=9D = or the like because they rely on this being =E2=80=9Cnew=E2=80=9D and = it=E2=80=99s only =E2=80=9Cnew=E2=80=9D right now. If we=E2=80=99re = successful and people are still talking about it in ten years then it = won=E2=80=99t be new anymore and the name will just seem absurd.=20 > =20 > While we=E2=80=99re at it, we really can=E2=80=99t use =E2=80=9CXAuth=E2= =80=9D because it=E2=80=99s already been something for 30 years: the X11 = authentication command: = https://www.x.org/archive/X11R6.8.1/doc/xauth.1.html = > =20 > My project=E2=80=99s name =E2=80=9CXYZ=E2=80=9D would also be a bad = name for a lasting protocol, as it=E2=80=99s too generic on its own.=20 > =20 > I still argue that we should call the protocol and the working group = TxAuth. Not only do I think the underlying =E2=80=9Ctransactional = authorization=E2=80=9D aspect is a key difference from what=E2=80=99s = come before (the nature of which I=E2=80=99ve described many, many times = on this list), if you go and search for the term =E2=80=9Ctxauth=E2=80=9D = you end up back at this mailing list and the posts that people have made = about it.=20 > =20 > =E2=80=94 Justin >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Apr 10, 2020, at 9:22 AM, Vijay IETF > wrote: > =20 > Assuming we are still at it... > =20 > NgAuth (Next Gen Auth). > =20 > On Tue, 24 Mar 2020 at 19:00, Amanjeev Sethi > wrote: > TOI (as in french you): TxAuth's OAuth's Improvement >=20 > On Tue, Mar 24, 2020, at 4:25 AM, Lee McGovern wrote: > > YAAP=20 > >=20 > > Yet another authX protocol > >=20 > >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Txauth > On Behalf Of Matthew A. Miller > > Sent: Monday, March 23, 2020 3:06 PM > > To: txauth@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [Txauth] WG name: TxAuth? XAuth? Something else? > >=20 > > On 20/03/23 13:49, Brian Campbell wrote: > > > YAAAAS - Yet Another Authorization And Authentication = Specification > > >=20 > >=20 > > +1 > >=20 > >=20 > > - m&m > >=20 > > Matthew A. Miller > >=20 > > > On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 1:39 PM Mike Jones=20 > > > @dmarc..ietf.org > > > >> wrote: > > >=20 > > > In brainstorming mode=E2=80=A6____ > > >=20 > > > * Disaggregated Authorization (DisAuth)____ > > > * Componentized Authorization (CompAuth)____ > > > * Build-Your-Own Authorization (BYOAuth)____ > > > * Do-It-Yourself Authorization (DIYAuth)____ > > > * Refactored Authorization (ReAuth or RefAuth)____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > And for fun=E2=80=A6____ > > >=20 > > > * Dismembered Authorization____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > -- = Mike____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > *From:* Txauth > > > >> *On Behalf Of *David Skaife > > > *Sent:* Saturday, March 21, 2020 11:22 AM > > > *To:* Justin Richer = >> > > > *Cc:* Yaron Sheffer > > > >>; txauth@ietf.org = > > > >; Dick Hardt = > > > >> > > > *Subject:* Re: [Txauth] WG name: TxAuth? XAuth? Something=20 > > > else?____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > I think we're saying the same thing with regards to the = working > > > group name - I was saying it *isn't* particularly important in > > > comparison to the name of the protocol (which obviously is = very > > > important).____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 6:18 PM Justin Richer > > > >> wrote:____ > > >=20 > > > I disagree on the working group name being super = important. > > > Nobody knows that the OAuth WG is actually named =E2=80=9CTh= e Web > > > Authorization Protocol Working Group=E2=80=9D, and nobody = cares.____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > My proposal is that we name the protocol we work on = =E2=80=9CTxAuth=E2=80=9D > > > (and keep the mailing list), and that we name the working = group > > > something like =E2=80=9CNext Generation Web Authorization = Protocol=E2=80=9D to > > > say what we=E2=80=99re doing.____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > -- Justin____ > > >=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > ____ > > >=20 > > > On Mar 21, 2020, at 2:08 PM, David Skaife > > > > > > >> wrote:____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > Just to throw in another suggestion, to address = Yaron's > > > point about some people mistakenly thinking that = "Auth" > > > stands for authentication rather than authorization, = how > > > about naming the working group *AuthZ*____ > > >=20 > > > Nice and simple, and it makes it clear what the group = is > > > focused on. > > >=20 > > > I think the name of the actual protocol that we = produce is > > > far, far more important that the name of the working = group - > > > and the name of that protocol doesn't need to = correlate to > > > the WG name. Also, we have much more time before we = need to > > > decide on the name of that protocol, even if the > > > initial draft documents that we produce end up using a > > > placeholder name.____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 5:44 PM Justin Richer > > > = >> wrote:____ > > >=20 > > > As you can see in the email you replied to, that = is not > > > even close to what I said. I believe it is a > > > transaction, and therefore, I do not agree that = it=E2=80=99s not > > > a transaction.____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > But if we take =E2=80=9CTransactional=E2=80=9D out = of the WG title, I > > > won=E2=80=99t be offended. If we just call it = =E2=80=9CTxAuth=E2=80=9D without > > > expansion, then that=E2=80=99s fine.____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > I do not like calling it =E2=80=9CXAuth=E2=80=9D. = The term =E2=80=9CTAuth" was > > > floated during naming the list, but rejected = because > > > (among other reasons) it would likely be awkwardly > > > pronounced as =E2=80=9Ctowth=E2=80=9D or = something. TxAuth reads as =E2=80=9CTee > > > - ex - oth=E2=80=9D more naturally, which was the = intent. ____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > So how about we take a page from the OAuth working = group > > > and name it:____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > TxAuth - Next Generation Web Authorization = Protocol > > > Working Group____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > =E2=80=94 Justin____ > > >=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > ____ > > >=20 > > > On Mar 21, 2020, at 1:15 PM, Dick Hardt > > > >> > > > wrote:____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > To clarify -- you agree it is not a = transaction, and > > > we will take the word transaction out of the = WG > > > title?____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 5:53 PM Justin Richer > > > = >>=20 > > > wrote:____ > > >=20 > > > Dick, thanks for pulling the definitions=20= > > > up:____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > > a communicative action or activity = involving > > > two parties or things that reciprocally = affect > > > or influence each other____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > This is the kind of thing that I had in = mind. > > > The client and the AS are in a = conversation over > > > time that each one contributes to and each > > > changes. ____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > Also =E2=80=94 we can just as easily = decide that > > > =E2=80=9CTxAuth=E2=80=9D doesn=E2=80=99t = stand for =E2=80=9CTransactional Auth=E2=80=9D > > > much the same way we decided that the = =E2=80=9CO=E2=80=9D in > > > =E2=80=9COAuth=E2=80=9D doesn=E2=80=99t = stand for =E2=80=9COpen=E2=80=9D anymore. ____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > None of the arguments below in favor of = XAuth > > > have made me like that name better. If = it=E2=80=99s just > > > a =E2=80=9Cplaceholder=E2=80=9D name, then = why come up with > > > something new?____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > =E2=80=94 Justin____ > > >=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > ____ > > >=20 > > > On Mar 20, 2020, at 3:32 PM, Dick = Hardt > > > > > > >> wrote:____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > not a transaction - there are multiple > > > transactions____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > backchannel innovation is combination = of > > > here is who I am, and here is what I = want to > > > do____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > childhood trauma therapy group____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 6:56 PM Justin > > > Richer > > > >> wrote:____ > > >=20 > > > Yes, naming things is hard =E2=80=94= but I still > > > believe in the name TxAuth. = We=E2=80=99re moving > > > beyond OAuth, and taking the = process of > > > getting an authorization delegated = to > > > the client software as a = multi-step, > > > multi-party transaction is, I = believe, > > > the key insight that=E2=80=99s = letting us move > > > beyond OAuth=E2=80=99s limitations = here. It=E2=80=99s > > > not just about going to the AS = first =E2=80=94 > > > we had that in OAuth 1 and we=E2=80=99= re > > > patching that into OAuth 2 with = PAR.. I > > > really think it=E2=80=99s about = the transaction > > > at the core.. ____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > OAuth 2.0 had multi-step, multi-party. > > > TxAuth extends that.____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > I think the big shift is going to the = AS. > > > This enables the request to be richer = with > > > JSON, instead of name/value pairs = parameters > > > in a URI. It allows the client and AS = to > > > negotiate, and to short circuit having = to > > > redirect the user to the AS. PAR does = some > > > of this, but it is constrained by = having to > > > do it in the OAuth 2.0 context.____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > My concern is that the protocol is = MUCH MORE > > > than a transaction. While the initial > > > interaction between client, AS, user = and RO > > > is a transaction. The protocol also = covers > > > the client and RS interactions. The = access > > > token refreshes. Access token = revocation. > > > Access token introspection. As = described in > > > the charter, there is a whole = lifecycle, > > > that consists of multiple=20 > > > transactions.____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > From > > > https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transaction:____ = > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > Definition of /transaction/____ > > >=20 > > > *1a**: *something transacted > > > = >/especially/ *: = *an > > > exchange or transfer > > > = > of > > > goods, services, or > > > fundselectronic /transactions/____ > > >=20 > > > *b: transactions*/ plural/ *: *the = often > > > published record of the meeting of a = society > > > or association____ > > >=20 > > > *2a**: *an act, process, or instance > > > of transacting > > > =20 > > > >____ > > >=20 > > > *b**: *a communicative action or = activity > > > involving two parties or things that > > > reciprocally affect or influence each=20= > > > other____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > Calling the protocol a transaction = will > > > confusing to people.____ > > >=20 > > > ____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > Having come of age in the = 1990=E2=80=99s, I have > > > particular dislike for XAuth. It = sounds > > > too =E2=80=9CX-TREME=E2=80=9D and = =E2=80=9CX-CITING=E2=80=9D, and if you > > > read either of those with a = growling > > > yell in your head then you know = exactly > > > what I=E2=80=99m talking = about.____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > In case you are confused, this is not = a > > > childhood trauma support group. = :)____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > Unlike "X-TREME" or "X-CITING", XAuth = is > > > using the "X" as a placeholder. X-Men, = Xbox, > > > X-Factor, X-files. ____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > =20 > > > = https://www.businessinsider.com/the-indisputable-power-of-brand-x-2012 = > > > -4____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > =20 > > > = https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/358181/whats-the-purpose-o = > > > f-using-letter-x-or-x-as-a-suffix-in-brand-names____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > ____ > > >=20 > > > And to Dick=E2=80=99s rationale = for the name > > > below, I absolutely do NOT see = this work > > > as =E2=80=9COAuth with all the = extra features=E2=80=9D. > > > I think that does a disservice to = the > > > kind of change we have an = opportunity to > > > make here. ____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > =46rom the charter ____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > "It will expand upon the uses = cases > > > currently supported by OAuth 2.0 = and > > > OpenID Connect (itself an = extension of > > > OAuth 2.0)"____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > Which sounds pretty similar to = =E2=80=9COAuth with > > > all the extra features=E2=80=9D____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > While I think XAuth captures what we = are > > > doing, a placeholder name would be > > > preferable to an incorrect descriptive = name > > > such as TxAuth.____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > For example, XYZ is a good placeholder = name. > > > Or XYZAuth. Let's not mislead = people.____ > > >=20 > > > ____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > =E2=80=94 Justin____ > > >=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > ____ > > >=20 > > > On Mar 16, 2020, at 7:04 PM, = Dick > > > Hardt > > > >> > > > wrote:____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > Hello everyone____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > I prompted a thread around the = name > > > of the protocol a while = back:____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > =20 > > > = https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/txauth/ZVQVbHt4ADqehKrBDXOrTr_s_ = > > > wc/____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > As Justin stated "naming is=20 > > > hard"____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > Wearing my marketing hat I = want to > > > ensure that the name will be > > > perceived properly in the = broader > > > community.____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > A recent example that comes to = mind > > > are the privacy related works = on the > > > browser storage API. Given = that > > > name, one would think that it = is > > > local storage. It is actually = about > > > browser cookies.____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > Justin discussed his reasons = for > > > TxAuth in the thread above = (and I'm > > > sure in other places)____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > I chose XAuth in my draft to = reflect > > > the eXtensibility goal that we = have > > > over OAuth -- and XAuth is = OAuth but > > > with an X to reflect all the = extra > > > features. =3D)____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > Other suggestions?____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > This will be an agenda item in = the > > > BoF -- but the name will NOT = be an > > > open discussion item -- we = will > > > summarize what has been = discussed on > > > the list and perhaps do a poll = of > > > options presented unless = consensus > > > is obvious from this = thread.____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > /Dick____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > =E1=90=A7____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > --=20 > > > Txauth mailing list > > > Txauth@ietf.org = > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth____ = > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > --=20 > > > Txauth mailing list > > > Txauth@ietf.org = > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth = > > >=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > --=20 > > > >Ping = Identity > = =20 > > > Brian Campbell =20 > > > Distinguished Engineer =20 > > > bcampbell@pingidentity.com = > = =20 > > > w: +1 720.317.2061 =20 > > > c: +1 303.918..9415=20 > > >=20 > > > Connect with us: Glassdoor logo > > > = > > > 07.11,24.htm> LinkedIn logo = > > > > twitter logo > > > > facebook logo > > > > youtube logo > > > > Blog logo > > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > = > > > = /ping-6-2-assets/Assets/faqs/en/consumer-attitudes-post-breach-era-337 > > > = 5.pdf?id%3Db6322a80-f285-11e3-ac10-0800200c9a66&source=3Dgmail&ust=3D15416= > > > = 93608526000&usg=3DAFQjCNGBl5cPHCUAVKGZ_NnpuFj5PHGSUQ> > > > entity.com/en/events/d/identify-2019.html = > > > > = m/content/dam/ping-6-2-assets/Assets/Misc/en/3464-consumersurvey-execs > > > ummary.pdf>> > > /www.pingidentity.com/en/events/e/rsa.html = > > > > om/en/lp/e/enabling-work-from-home-with-MFA.html> > > >=20 > > > /If you=E2=80=99re not a current customer, click here=20 > > > = > > > source=3DEmail&utm_campaign=3DWF-COVID19-New-EMSIG> for a more = relevant=20 > > > offer./ > > >=20 > > > /CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email may contain confidential and=20= > > > privileged material for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). = Any=20 > > > review, use, distribution or disclosure by others is strictly=20 > > > prohibited.. If you have received this communication in error, = please=20 > > > notify the sender immediately by e-mail and delete the message and = any=20 > > > file attachments from your computer. Thank you./ > > >=20 > >=20 > > -- > > Txauth mailing list > > Txauth@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth = > >=20 > >=20 > > This e-mail, including attachments, is intended for the person(s) or=20= > > company named and may contain confidential and/or legally privileged=20= > > information. > >=20 > > Unauthorized disclosure, copying or use of this information may be=20= > > unlawful and is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient,=20= > > please delete this message and notify the sender. > > All incoming and outgoing e-mail messages are stored in the Swiss Re=20= > > Electronic Message Repository. > > If you do not wish the retention of potentially private e-mails by=20= > > Swiss Re, we strongly advise you not to use the Swiss Re e-mail = account=20 > > for any private, non-business related communications. > > --=20 > > Txauth mailing list > > Txauth@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth = > > >=20 > --=20 > Txauth mailing list > Txauth@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth = > --=20 > Txauth mailing list > Txauth@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth = --Apple-Mail=_39B008AA-0F77-49E2-98F0-6A4788C5B635 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Mike, thanks for pulling up the definition. I agree we = don=E2=80=99t want to redefine a well-used term, but I disagree that = this is any attempt to redefine the well-used term here; but instead I = see us applying it in a way that is consistent with the design goals of = at least one of the input documents (XYZ) and I would argue with the = core tenets of the solution space that we=E2=80=99re looking = into. 

While the definition that I quoted from Dick below is the = best fit, I still think that the units below are also appropriate. You = begin the transaction when the client starts things off. The transaction = ends when the token is issued. The token is the result of the = transaction. While it=E2=80=99s not a perfect 1:1 mapping, since we=E2=80=99= re talking about a multi-party protocol and not the fundamental = definition here, 

And I think with all of this argument it=E2=80=99s important = to point out that I=E2=80=99ve been using an adjective form the whole = time: Transactional Authorization. It=E2=80=99s an authorization that = has aspects and components and artifacts of a transaction. That = doesn=E2=80=99t mean that this protocol is a transaction in every = aspect. Nor is it, I would argue, authorization in every aspect. Just = like =E2=80=9Cidentity=E2=80=9D covers many, many things, so do these = terms, and I think we=E2=80=99re honestly hitting enough of them for it = to make sense, still.

I=E2=80=99m still fine with a *better* name if there is one = to be had. Naming things is hard.

For some context, these are a few of = the names that Roman and I tossed around when we came up with TxAuth for = the list name six months ago:

TRAP: Transaction Authorization = Protocol

TRADE: = Transaction Authorization and Delegation

I=E2=80=99m not a big fan of either of = those because I=E2=80=99m not big on cute and pronounceable acronyms, = personally. I could live with =E2=80=9CTRADE=E2=80=9D though if there = was a groundswell for it.

 =E2=80=94 Justin

On Apr = 13, 2020, at 7:37 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> wrote:

The normal computer science = use of the term =E2=80=9Ctransaction=E2=80=9D involves a proposed state = change that either commits or aborts atomically.  That doesn=E2=80=99= t match your description of the term below.  It also doesn=E2=80=99t = match the RFC 4949 definition of the term = (which does match my paraphrase above).  It reads:
 
   $ transaction
      1. (I) A unit of interaction = between an external entity and a
      system, or between components = within a system, that involves a
      series of system actions or = events.
 
      2. (O) "A discrete event = between user and systems that supports a
      business or programmatic = purpose." [M0404]
 
      Tutorial: To = maintain secure state, transactions need to be
      processed coherently and = reliably. Usually, they need to be
      designed to be atomic, = consistent, isolated, and durable [Gray]:
      -  "Atomic": All actions = and events that comprise the transaction
         are = guaranteed to be completed successfully, or else the result
         is as if = none at all were executed.
      -  "Consistent": The = transaction satisfies correctness constraints
         defined for = the data that is being processed.
      -  "Isolated": If two = transactions are performed concurrently,
         they do not = interfere with each other, and it appears as though
         the system = performs one at a time.
      -  "Durable": System = state and transaction semantics survive
         system = failures.
 
We = shouldn=E2=80=99t try to invent a new meaning for the well-established = computer science term =E2=80=9Ctransaction=E2=80=9D in this working = group.
 
          &nb= sp;            = ;            &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;       -- Mike
 
P.S.  = On a personal note, I really continue to miss Jim Gray.
 
From: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> 
Sent: Monday, April 13, 2020 4:27 = PM
To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
Cc: Vijay= IETF <vijay.ietf@gmail.com>; Matthew A. Miller <linuxwolf+ietf@outer-planes.net>; Lee McGovern <Lee_McGovern@swissre.com>; Amanjeev Sethi <aj@amanjeev.com>; txauth@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Txauth] WG name: = TxAuth? XAuth? Something else?
 
On Apr 13, 2020, at 6:25 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> wrote:
 
Because the proposed starting points and likely outcomes = aren=E2=80=99t transactional, I believe we shouldn=E2=80=99t confuse = people by calling it Transactional Authorization or using the = abbreviation =E2=80=9CTx=E2=80=9D.
 
I=E2=80=99m not sure what you mean. XYZ, as a starting point, = is transactional by design. I have given several talks on this topic, = which you have attended. And in fact I would argue that the entire = intent-registration pattern, upon which both proposals are predicated, = is transactional in nature as well. As Dick was kind enough to pull the = definition earlier in this thread, let me restate that definition:
 
          &nb= sp;   a = communicative action or activity involving two parties or things that = reciprocally affect or influence each other
 
The entire act of getting the = delegation to occur is a transaction between the client and the AS (or = equivalent component). The client begins the transaction by talking to = the AS, the AS continues the transaction by optionally getting the user = involved, and the client continues the transaction when the interaction = portion is completed, and so on. While this is intentionally built into = XYZ, I would argue that even XAuth has this feature.
 
So with that in mind, I don=E2=80=99t = think it=E2=80=99s misleading or confusing at all. I=E2=80=99m not sure = why people keep referring to it as =E2=80=9Cincorrect=E2=80=9D. 
 
Yes, there are other definitions of = =E2=80=9Ctransaction=E2=80=9D that do not apply =E2=80=94 words have = more than one definition, and that happens.
 
Since you asked, I will gladly offer my specific thoughts on = your suggestions.


 
I haven=E2=80=99t heard = responses to any of these brainstormed names yet:
  • Disaggregated Authorization = (DisAuth)
  • Componentized Authorization = (CompAuth)
 
Neither of these capture what=E2=80=99s different about this. = The components are largely the same as they were in OAuth 2, UMA, OIDC, = SAML, and related protocols. The componentization isn=E2=80=99t the new = thing here, so I don=E2=80=99t think these are that good a fit.


  •  
  • Build-Your-Own Authorization (BYOAuth)
    • Do-It-Yourself Authorization (DIYAuth)
 
These aren=E2=80=99t really what we=E2=80=99re after at all. = In fact, the proposed charter is specifically about building a protocol = instead of a framework, so either of these are very misleading.


  •  
  • Refactored Authorization (ReAuth or RefAuth)
 
This doesn=E2=80=99t offer any description of what=E2=80=99s = gone on here. Refactored from what? Additionally  I don=E2=80=99t = believe this name flows naturally from the proposed shortenings. =  =E2=80=9CReAuth=E2=80=9D sounds like =E2=80=9CReAuthorization=E2=80=9D= and/or =E2=80=9CReAuthentication=E2=80=9D, where as =E2=80=9CRefAuth=E2=80= =9D sounds like it should stand for =E2=80=9Creference=E2=80=9D instead = of =E2=80=9Crefactored=E2=80=9D.


  •  
 
To those I=E2=80=99ll now add:
  • Alternative Authorization = Protocol (AAP)
  • Alternative Authorization = (AltAuth)
  • Reimagined Authorization = (ReAuth)
 
All of these are problematic for the same reason that = =E2=80=9CNewAuth=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9CNgAuth=E2=80=9D are. They just say = =E2=80=9Cit=E2=80=99s new=E2=80=9D and don=E2=80=99t say anything about = it. And if we=E2=80=99re successful, it won=E2=80=99t be =E2=80=9Cnew" = while people are still using it.


  •  
  • Back-end Based = Authorization (BBAuth)
 
This is a start in concept, as it starts to talk about = what=E2=80=99s different, but =E2=80=9CBBAuth=E2=80=9D is already = something =E2=80=94 one of the predecessors of OAuth 1.0 was = =E2=80=9CBBAuth=E2=80=9D from Flickr (later Yahoo). Also, note that in = this historical context, the expansion is =E2=80=9CBrowser Based = Auth=E2=80=9D, which could happen here again. As one of the key aspects = of what people are interested is decoupling from the browser, we don=E2=80= =99t want to have echos of that, even if the name weren=E2=80=99t = already historically taken.


  •  
 
And for fun, there=E2=80=99s = still:
  • Dismembered Authorization
Plus:
  • ZZAuth =E2=80=93 The = Protocol
 
Please, no.


 
Surely others must have other good ideas = than don=E2=80=99t use the misleading term =E2=80=9CTransactional=E2=80=9D= or its abbreviation =E2=80=9CTx=E2=80=9D.
 
 
Again, as above, this is not misleading. That said, if = there=E2=80=99s a better idea, I=E2=80=99m open to it. But for all of = the reasons I keep repeating now, TxAuth is decent and I haven=E2=80=99t = seen a better one.
 
Thanks,
 
 =E2=80=94 Justin


          &nb= sp;            = ;            &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;       Cheers,
          &nb= sp;            = ;            &= nbsp;           &nb= sp;       -- Mike
 
From: Txauth <txauth-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf = Of Justin = Richer
Sent: Monday, April 13, 2020 = 11:43 AM
To: Vijay IETF <vijay.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc: Matthew A. Miller <linuxwolf+ietf@outer-planes.net>; Lee McGovern <Lee_McGovern@swissre.com>; = Amanjeev Sethi <aj@amanjeev.com>; txauth@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Txauth] WG name: = TxAuth? XAuth? Something else?
 
I appreciate the brainstorming of names here. 
 
I dislike names like =E2=80=9CNgAuth=E2=80= =9D or =E2=80=9CYAAP=E2=80=9D or the like because they rely on this = being =E2=80=9Cnew=E2=80=9D and it=E2=80=99s only =E2=80=9Cnew=E2=80=9D = right now. If we=E2=80=99re successful and people are still talking = about it in ten years then it won=E2=80=99t be new anymore and the name = will just seem absurd. 
 
While we=E2=80=99re at it, we really = can=E2=80=99t use =E2=80=9CXAuth=E2=80=9D because it=E2=80=99s already = been something for 30 years: the X11 authentication command: https://www.x.org/archive/X11R6.8.1/doc/xauth.1.html
 
My project=E2=80=99s name =E2=80=9CXYZ=E2= =80=9D would also be a bad name for a lasting protocol, as it=E2=80=99s = too generic on its own. 
 
I still argue that we should call the = protocol and the working group TxAuth. = Not only do I think the underlying =E2=80=9Ctransactional = authorization=E2=80=9D aspect is a key difference from what=E2=80=99s = come before (the nature of which I=E2=80=99ve described many, many times = on this list), if you go and search for the term =E2=80=9Ctxauth=E2=80=9D = you end up back at this mailing list and the posts that people have made = about it. 
 
 =E2=80=94 Justin



On Apr = 10, 2020, at 9:22 AM, Vijay IETF <vijay.ietf@gmail.com> = wrote:
 
Assuming we are still at = it...
 
NgAuth (Next Gen Auth).
 
On Tue, 24 Mar 2020 at = 19:00, Amanjeev Sethi <aj@amanjeev.com> wrote:
TOI (as in french you): TxAuth's OAuth's Improvement

On Tue, Mar 24, 2020, at 4:25 AM, Lee McGovern = wrote:
> YAAP 
> 
> Yet = another authX protocol
> 
> 
> = -----Original Message-----
> From: Txauth <txauth-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Matthew A. = Miller
> Sent: Monday, March 23, 2020 3:06 PM
> To: txauth@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Txauth] WG name: TxAuth? XAuth? Something = else?
> 
> On = 20/03/23 13:49, Brian Campbell wrote:
> > YAAAAS - = Yet Another Authorization And Authentication Specification
> > > 
> +1
> 
> 
> - = m&m
> 
> Matthew = A. Miller
> 
> > On = Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 1:39 PM Mike Jones 
> > = <Michael.Jones=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc..ietf.org
> > <mailto:40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org>> wrote:
> > > >     In brainstorming mode=E2=80=A6___= _
> > 
> = >       * Disaggregated Authorization = (DisAuth)____
> >       * = Componentized Authorization (CompAuth)____
> >  =      * Build-Your-Own Authorization (BYOAuth)____
> >       * Do-It-Yourself = Authorization (DIYAuth)____
> >      =  * Refactored Authorization (ReAuth or RefAuth)____
> > > >     __ __
> = > 
>= >     And for fun=E2=80=A6____
> = > 
>= >       * Dismembered Authorization____
> > > >     __ __
> = > 
>= >    =             &n= bsp;           &nbs= p;            =             &n= bsp;      -- Mike____
> = > 
>= >     __ __
> > 
> = >     *From:* Txauth <txauth-bounces@ietf.org
> >  =    <mailto:txauth-bounces@ietf.org>> *On Behalf Of *David = Skaife
> >     *Sent:* Saturday, = March 21, 2020 11:22 AM
> >     *To:* = Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu <mailto:jricher@mit.edu>>
> >     *Cc:* Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com> >     <mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>>; txauth@ietf.org
> >     <mailto:txauth@ietf.org>; Dick = Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com
> >    =  <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>>
> = >     *Subject:* Re: [Txauth] WG name: TxAuth? XAuth? = Something 
> > else?____
> > 
> = >     __ __
> > 
> = >     I think we're saying the same thing with regards = to the working
> >     group name - I = was saying it *isn't* particularly important in
> = >     comparison to the name of the protocol (which = obviously is very
> >    =  important).____
> > 
> = >     __ __
> > 
> = >     On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 6:18 PM Justin Richer = <jricher@mit.edu
> >     <mailto:jricher@mit.edu>> = wrote:____
> > 
> = >         I disagree on the working group = name being super important.
> >      =    Nobody knows that the OAuth WG is actually named =E2=80=9CThe= Web
> >        =  Authorization Protocol Working Group=E2=80=9D, and nobody = cares.____
> > 
> = >         __ __
> = > 
>= >         My proposal is that we name the = protocol we work on =E2=80=9CTxAuth=E2=80=9D
> = >         (and keep the mailing list), and = that we name the working group
> >    =      something like =E2=80=9CNext Generation Web = Authorization Protocol=E2=80=9D to
> >    =      say what we=E2=80=99re doing.____
> = > 
>= >         __ __
> = > 
>= >          -- Justin____
> > > > 
> = > 
>= >         ____
> > 
> = >             On Mar 21, 2020, at = 2:08 PM, David Skaife
> >        =      <blue.ringed.octopus.guy@gmail.com
> = >             <mailto:blue.ringed.octopus.guy@gmail.com>> wrote:____
> > > >            =  __ __
> > 
> = >             Just to throw in = another suggestion, to address Yaron's
> >  =            point about some people = mistakenly thinking that "Auth"
> >    =          stands for authentication rather than = authorization, how
> >        =      about naming the working group *AuthZ*____
> > > >            =  Nice and simple, and it makes it clear what the group is
> >            =  focused on.
> > 
> = >             I think the name of = the actual protocol that we produce is
> >  =            far, far more important that = the name of the working group -
> >    =          and the name of that protocol doesn't = need to correlate to
> >        =      the WG name. Also, we have much more time before we = need to
> >            =  decide on the name of that protocol, even if the
> = >             initial draft = documents that we produce end up using a
> >  =            placeholder name.____
> > > >            =  __ __
> > 
> = >             On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 = at 5:44 PM Justin Richer
> >      =        <jricher@mit.edu <mailto:jricher@mit.edu>> = wrote:____
> > 
> = >                 As you = can see in the email you replied to, that is not
> = >                 even = close to what I said. I believe it is a
> >  =                transaction, and = therefore, I do not agree that it=E2=80=99s not
> = >                 a = transaction.____
> > 
> = >                =  __ __
> > 
> = >                 But if = we take =E2=80=9CTransactional=E2=80=9D out of the WG title, I
> >              =    won=E2=80=99t be offended. If we just call it =E2=80=9CTxAuth= =E2=80=9D without
> >        =          expansion, then that=E2=80=99s = fine.____
> > 
> = >                =  __ __
> > 
> = >                 I do = not like calling it =E2=80=9CXAuth=E2=80=9D. The term =E2=80=9CTAuth" = was
> >            =      floated during naming the list, but rejected = because
> >            =      (among other reasons) it would likely be = awkwardly
> >          =        pronounced as =E2=80=9Ctowth=E2=80=9D or = something. TxAuth reads as =E2=80=9CTee
> >  =                - ex - oth=E2=80=9D= more naturally, which was the intent. ____
> = > 
>= >                =  __ __
> > 
> = >                 So how = about we take a page from the OAuth working group
> = >                 and = name it:____
> > 
> = >                =  __ __
> > 
> = >                 TxAuth = - Next Generation Web Authorization Protocol
> = >                =  Working Group____
> > 
> = >                =  __ __
> > 
> = >                =  __ __
> > 
> = >                =   =E2=80=94 Justin____
> > 
> = > 
>= > 
> >              =    ____
> > 
> = >                  =    On Mar 21, 2020, at 1:15 PM, Dick Hardt
> = >                  =    <dick.hardt@gmail.com <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>>
> = >                  =    wrote:____
> > 
> = >                  =    __ __
> > 
> = >                  =    To clarify -- you agree it is not a transaction, and
> >              =        we will take the word transaction out of the = WG
> >            =          title?____
> = > 
>= >                  =    __ __
> > 
> = >                  =    On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 5:53 PM Justin Richer
> >              =        <jricher@mit.edu <mailto:jricher@mit.edu>> 
> > = wrote:____
> > 
> = >                  =        Dick, thanks for pulling the definitions 
> > = up:____
> > 
> = >                  =        __ __
> > 
> = >                  =        > a communicative action or activity = involving
> >          =                two parties or = things that reciprocally affect
> >    =                     =  or influence each other____
> > 
> = >                  =        __ __
> > 
> = >                  =        This is the kind of thing that I had in = mind.
> >            =              The client and the AS = are in a conversation over
> >      =                   =  time that each one contributes to and each
> = >                  =        changes. ____
> = > 
>= >                  =        __ __
> > 
> = >                  =        Also =E2=80=94 we can just as easily decide = that
> >            =              =E2=80=9CTxAuth=E2=80=9D = doesn=E2=80=99t stand for =E2=80=9CTransactional Auth=E2=80=9D
> >              =            much the same way we decided = that the =E2=80=9CO=E2=80=9D in
> >    =                     =  =E2=80=9COAuth=E2=80=9D doesn=E2=80=99t stand for =E2=80=9COpen=E2=80= =9D anymore. ____
> > 
> = >                  =        __ __
> > 
> = >                  =        None of the arguments below in favor of = XAuth
> >            =              have made me like that = name better. If it=E2=80=99s just
> >    =                     =  a =E2=80=9Cplaceholder=E2=80=9D name, then why come up with
> >              =            something new?____
> > > >              =            __ __
> = > 
>= >                  =         =E2=80=94 Justin____
> = > 
>= > 
> > > >              =            ____
> = > 
>= >                  =            On Mar 20, 2020, at 3:32 PM, = Dick Hardt
> >          =                   =  <dick.hardt@gmail.com
> >    =                     =      <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>> wrote:____
> = > 
>= >                  =            __ __
> = > 
>= >                  =            __ __
> = > 
>= >                  =            __ __
> = > 
>= >                  =            __ __
> = > 
>= >                  =            not a transaction - there are = multiple
> >          =                   =  transactions____
> > 
> = >                  =            __ __
> = > 
>= >                  =            backchannel innovation is = combination of
> >        =                     =  here is who I am, and here is what I want to
> = >                  =            do____
> = > 
>= >                  =            __ __
> = > 
>= >                  =            __ __
> = > 
>= >                  =            childhood trauma therapy = group____
> > 
> = >                  =            __ __
> = > 
>= >                  =            __ __
> = > 
>= >                  =            __ __
> = > 
>= >                  =            On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 6:56 PM = Justin
> >            =                  Richer = <jricher@mit.edu
> >              =                <mailto:jricher@mit.edu>> = wrote:____
> > 
> = >                  =                Yes, naming = things is hard =E2=80=94 but I still
> >  =                     =            believe in the name TxAuth. = We=E2=80=99re moving
> >        =                     =      beyond OAuth, and taking the process of
> >              =                   =  getting an authorization delegated to
> = >                  =                the client = software as a multi-step,
> >      =                     =        multi-party transaction is, I believe,
> >              =                    the = key insight that=E2=80=99s letting us move
> >  =                     =            beyond OAuth=E2=80=99s = limitations here. It=E2=80=99s
> >    =                     =          not just about going to the AS first = =E2=80=94
> >          =                     =    we had that in OAuth 1 and we=E2=80=99re
> = >                  =                patching that = into OAuth 2 with PAR.. I
> >      =                     =        really think it=E2=80=99s about the = transaction
> >          =                     =    at the core.. ____
> > 
> = >                  =            __ __
> = > 
>= >                  =            OAuth 2.0 had multi-step, = multi-party.
> >          =                   =  TxAuth extends that.____
> > 
> = >                  =            __ __
> = > 
>= >                  =            I think the big shift is going = to the AS.
> >          =                   =  This enables the request to be richer with
> = >                  =            JSON, instead of name/value = pairs parameters
> >        =                     =  in a URI. It allows the client and AS to
> = >                  =            negotiate, and to short circuit = having to
> >          =                   =  redirect the user to the AS. PAR does some
> = >                  =            of this, but it is constrained = by having to
> >          =                    do = it in the OAuth 2.0 context.____
> > 
> = >                  =            __ __
> = > 
>= >                  =            My concern is that the protocol = is MUCH MORE
> >          =                   =  than a transaction. While the initial
> = >                  =            interaction between client, AS, = user and RO
> >          =                    is = a transaction. The protocol also covers
> >  =                     =        the client and RS interactions. The = access
> >            =                  token = refreshes. Access token revocation.
> >    =                     =      Access token introspection. As described in
> >              =                the charter, = there is a whole lifecycle,
> >      =                     =    that consists of multiple 
> > = transactions.____
> > 
> = >                  =            __ __
> = > 
>= >                  =            From
> = > https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transaction:____=
> > 
> = >                  =            __ __
> = > 
>= > 
> >              =                   =  Definition of /transaction/____
> > 
> = >                  =           =  *1a**: *something transacted
> = >                  =            <https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transacted>/e= specially/ *: *an
> >      =                     =    exchange or transfer
> >  =                     =        <https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transfer>&nbs= p;of
> >            =                  goods, = services, or
> >          =                   =  fundselectronic /transactions/____
> = > 
>= >                  =           =  *b: transactions*/ plural/ *: *the often
> >              =                published record = of the meeting of a society
> >      =                     =    or association____
> > 
> = >                  =            *2a**: *an act, process, = or instance
> >          =                   =  of transacting
> >      =                     =    
> > <https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transacting>_= ___
> > 
> = >                  =            *b**: *a communicative = action or activity
> >        =                     =  involving two parties or things that
> >  =                     =        reciprocally affect or influence each 
> > = other____
> > 
> = >                  =            __ __
> = > 
>= >                  =            Calling the protocol a = transaction will
> >        =                     =  confusing to people.____
> > 
> = >                  =             ____
> = > 
>= >                  =                __ __
> > > >              =                   =  Having come of age in the 1990=E2=80=99s, I have
> = >                  =                particular = dislike for XAuth. It sounds
> >      =                     =        too =E2=80=9CX-TREME=E2=80=9D and = =E2=80=9CX-CITING=E2=80=9D, and if you
> >  =                     =            read either of those with a = growling
> >          =                     =    yell in your head then you know exactly
> = >                  =                what I=E2=80=99m = talking about.____
> > 
> = >                  =            __ __
> = > 
>= >                  =            In case you are confused, this = is not a
> >          =                   =  childhood trauma support group.  :)____
>= > 
> >              =                __ __
> > > >              =                Unlike "X-TREME" = or "X-CITING", XAuth is
> >      =                     =    using the "X" as a placeholder. X-Men, Xbox,
> >              =                X-Factor, = X-files. ____
> > 
> = >                  =            __ __
> = > 
>= >                  =            
> > https://www.businessinsider.com/the-indisputable-power-of-brand= -x-2012
> > -4____
> > 
> = >                  =            __ __
> = > 
>= >                  =            
> > https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/358181/whats-the-pu= rpose-o
> > = f-using-letter-x-or-x-as-a-suffix-in-brand-names____
> = > 
>= >                  =            __ __
> = > 
>= >                  =             ____
> = > 
>= >                  =                And to Dick=E2=80=99= s rationale for the name
> >      =                     =        below, I absolutely do NOT see this work
> >              =                    as = =E2=80=9COAuth with all the extra features=E2=80=9D.
> = >                  =                I think that does = a disservice to the
> >        =                     =      kind of change we have an opportunity to
> >              =                   =  make here. ____
> > 
> = >                  =            __ __
> = > 
>= >                  =            =46rom the charter ____
> > > >              =                __ __
> > > >              =                    "It = will expand upon the uses cases
> >    =                     =          currently supported by OAuth 2.0 = and
> >            =                     =  OpenID Connect (itself an extension of
> = >                  =                OAuth = 2.0)"____
> > 
> = >                  =            __ __
> = > 
>= >                  =            Which sounds pretty similar = to =E2=80=9COAuth with
> >      =                     =    all the extra features=E2=80=9D____
> = > 
>= >                  =            __ __
> = > 
>= >                  =            While I think XAuth captures = what we are
> >          =                   =  doing, a placeholder name would be
> >  =                     =        preferable to an incorrect descriptive = name
> >            =                  such as = TxAuth.____
> > 
> = >                  =            __ __
> = > 
>= >                  =            For example, XYZ is a good = placeholder name.
> >        =                     =  Or XYZAuth. Let's not mislead people.____
> = > 
>= >                  =             ____
> = > 
>= >                  =                __ __
> > > >              =                   =   =E2=80=94 Justin____
> > 
> = > 
>= > 
> >              =                   =  ____
> > 
> = >                  =                    On = Mar 16, 2020, at 7:04 PM, Dick
> >    =                     =              Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com
> >              =                     =    <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>>
> = >                  =                   =  wrote:____
> > 
> = >                  =                   =  __ __
> > 
> = >                  =                   =  Hello everyone____
> > 
> = >                  =                   =  __ __
> > 
> = >                  =                    I = prompted a thread around the name
> >    =                     =              of the protocol a while = back:____
> > 
> = >                  =                   =  __ __
> > 
> = >                  =                    
> > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/txauth/ZVQVbHt4ADqehKrBDX= OrTr_s_
> > wc/____
> > 
> = >                  =                   =  __ __
> > 
> = >                  =                    As = Justin stated "naming is 
> > = hard"____
> > 
> = >                  =                   =  __ __
> > 
> = >                  =                   =  Wearing my marketing hat I want to
> >  =                     =                ensure that the = name will be
> >          =                     =        perceived properly in the broader
> >              =                     =    community.____
> > 
> = >                  =                   =  __ __
> > 
> = >                  =                    A = recent example that comes to mind
> >    =                     =              are the privacy related = works on the
> >          =                     =        browser storage API. Given that
> >              =                     =    name, one would think that it is
> = >                  =                   =  local storage. It is actually about
> >  =                     =                browser = cookies.____
> > 
> = >                  =                   =  __ __
> > 
> = >                  =                   =  Justin discussed his reasons for
> >  =                     =                TxAuth in the = thread above (and I'm
> >        =                     =          sure in other places)____
> > > >              =                     =    __ __
> > 
> = >                  =                    I = chose XAuth in my draft to reflect
> >    =                     =              the eXtensibility goal = that we have
> >          =                     =        over OAuth -- and XAuth is OAuth but
> >              =                     =    with an X to reflect all the extra
> = >                  =                   =  features. =3D)____
> > 
> = >                  =                   =  __ __
> > 
> = >                  =                   =  Other suggestions?____
> > 
> = >                  =                   =  __ __
> > 
> = >                  =                   =  This will be an agenda item in the
> >  =                     =                BoF -- but the = name will NOT be an
> >        =                     =          open discussion item -- we will
> >              =                     =    summarize what has been discussed on
> = >                  =                    the = list and perhaps do a poll of
> >    =                     =              options presented unless = consensus
> >          =                     =        is obvious from this thread.____
> > > >              =                     =    __ __
> > 
> = >                  =                   =  /Dick____
> > 
> = >                  =                   =  __ __
> > 
> = >                  =                   =  __ __
> > 
> = >                  =                   =  __ __
> > 
> = >                  =                   =  __ __
> > 
> = >                  =                   =  __ __
> > 
> = >                  =                   =  =E1=90=A7____
> > 
> = >                  =                __ __
> > > >              =            __ __
> = > 
>= >                =  __ __
> > 
> = >                =  -- 
> >              =    Txauth mailing list
> >    =              Txauth@ietf.org <mailto:Txauth@ietf.org>
> >              =    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth____
> > > >         __ __
> > > >     -- 
> = >     Txauth mailing list
> = >     Txauth@ietf.org <mailto:Txauth@ietf.org>
> >     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
> > > > 
> = > 
>= > -- 
> > <https://www.pingidentity.com>Ping Identity <https://www.pingidentity.com>      =     
> > Brian Campbell      
> > = Distinguished Engineer      
> = > bcampbell@pingidentity.com <mailto:bcampbell@pingidentity.com>      
> > w: = +1 720.317.2061  
> > c: = +1 303.918..9415 
> > > > Connect with us:    Glassdoor logo
> > <https://www.glassdoor.com/Overview/Working-at-Ping-Identity-EI_= IE3809
> > 07.11,24.htm> LinkedIn logo <https://www.linkedin.com/company/21870>
> > twitter logo
> > <https://twitter.com/pingidentity>  facebook = logo
> > <https://www.facebook.com/pingidentitypage> youtube = logo
> > <https://www.youtube.com/user/PingIdentityTV> Blog = logo
> > <https://www.pingidentity.com/en/blog.html> 
> = > 
>= > <https://www.google.com/url?q=3Dhttps://www.pingidentity.com/con= tent/dam
> > = /ping-6-2-assets/Assets/faqs/en/consumer-attitudes-post-breach-era-337
> > = 5.pdf?id%3Db6322a80-f285-11e3-ac10-0800200c9a66&source=3Dgmail&ust= =3D15416
> > = 93608526000&usg=3DAFQjCNGBl5cPHCUAVKGZ_NnpuFj5PHGSUQ><https://www.pingid
> > entity.com/en/events/d/identify-2019.html><https://www.pingidentity.co
> > = m/content/dam/ping-6-2-assets/Assets/Misc/en/3464-consumersurvey-execs
> > ummary.pdf><https://www.pingidentity.com/en/events/e/rsa.html><ht= tps:/
> > /www.pingidentity.com/en/events/e/rsa.html><https://www.pingidentity.c
> > = om/en/lp/e/enabling-work-from-home-with-MFA.html>
> = > 
>= > /If you=E2=80=99re not a current customer, click here 
> > = <https://www.pingidentity.com/en/lp/e/work-from-home-sso-mfa.htm= l?utm_
> > = source=3DEmail&utm_campaign=3DWF-COVID19-New-EMSIG> for a = more relevant 
> > offer./
> > 
> > = /CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email may contain confidential and 
> > = privileged material for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). = Any 
> = > review, use, distribution or disclosure by others is strictly 
> > = prohibited..  If you have received this communication in error, = please 
> > notify the sender immediately by e-mail and delete = the message and any 
> > file attachments from your computer. Thank you./
> > > 
> --
> Txauth mailing list
> Txauth@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
> 
> 
> This e-mail, including attachments, is intended for the = person(s) or 
> company named and may contain confidential and/or = legally privileged 
> information.
> 
> = Unauthorized disclosure, copying or use of this information may be 
> = unlawful and is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, 
> please = delete this message and notify the sender.
> All = incoming and outgoing e-mail messages are stored in the Swiss Re 
> = Electronic Message Repository.
> If you do not wish the = retention of potentially private e-mails by 
> Swiss = Re, we strongly advise you not to use the Swiss Re e-mail account 
> for any = private, non-business related communications.
> -- 
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= --Apple-Mail=_39B008AA-0F77-49E2-98F0-6A4788C5B635-- From nobody Mon Apr 13 23:44:19 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: txauth@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: txauth@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C68063A0DDC for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 23:44:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.886 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.886 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, T_KAM_HTML_FONT_INVALID=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=123-do.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1HGHQzlEezVY for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 23:44:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd2a.google.com (mail-io1-xd2a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1431E3A0DDB for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 23:44:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd2a.google.com with SMTP id o127so12134950iof.0 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 23:44:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=123-do.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=L3/uZNCC1WW/IVxhXAgApirCW6EkOZc72k14nplRQq8=; b=hcL7qSAufPdnNqmFfpr2tqneFX8XKYFd9SWZ6YiDtNTQ8Iu1iRd/FPRgqYsUlAhT+P RpC7MBsCScnWAVn5asqLeRXyrsLi3frhdlH9qT3zvd4MjJ+0rICL2bshhGNeAV4MhbB0 UZp7wCsQEKdXJFCgFHjVvtkrx8ChwUI/ExRGgaFIDnWA7lufyPsNLCIhWHhTo2B4TXcp nGHGPU/D7yxUD6fk2PHzMpBZwZ6E+PcM/nji00gkQwnaf7RGp2mAIDhrHjl6edELaJ6U FwS8HmDoWLfllEzAGAVlzKfQdBN1UzN5zoQPWaIyHqgqcBhSpLAxKNSzIVBk8LZvHVFH 31tQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=L3/uZNCC1WW/IVxhXAgApirCW6EkOZc72k14nplRQq8=; b=c28xaubhTrMy2zhYN7vNRmL6ZhO9rmdZ4KuLCwBI7XqVKLpqglWMyM2H8VsR5To0qG ouvuFgw27+dUXAHmUav8+4idpcjRhmomC5zwLjTwEoZ83JQAo9c3WR88X4Q85jDutGJI jY0T9LQRLiSJdCX4zgUd1iR98BNk7oBpwV3/bLffEFXxyfqjihi43CO98SU8P+OIR82Y QtdRai9ASnGLtm8xinpGNKGUH1nBUDUgqgNGe1wvYbsGSNwsOYFmPNyh5evZkUuZyiGr /jAIjfENbljuA6JI1Sy0+A1rPW36Ix95PKN8vG/T15SZsTZ7pc+bEp567oluDNmCA3hJ 2VBA== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuaUqyKbrIsmelG1ya8ln0grjEy/aEZdwiKoH/DHwX3YmwBSQOoP AR3bVPSIROKCYb6e85sDXVAkaiFVZzPJOAwAyj6JsGEyAU2tZA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypKmjgP4MBEjloPDc0vFK/mn0QegcuVutro9ipHuwXb6PTvpdJt7Ty0fCS3mmfJCFVNZmeTu0d2455XNhuvnQXs= X-Received: by 2002:a02:40c2:: with SMTP id n185mr17848093jaa.43.1586846654930; Mon, 13 Apr 2020 23:44:14 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Nigel Hamilton Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 07:44:04 +0100 Message-ID: To: txauth@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002e3ecc05a33a8795" Archived-At: Subject: [Txauth] Name game support X-BeenThere: txauth@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 06:44:18 -0000 --0000000000002e3ecc05a33a8795 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi, Naming is indeed hard - and something that normally takes a number of weeks / months. Recently I helped the Perl community rename Perl 6 -> Raku [1]. Here are some features of a good protocol name (adapted): - distinctive - 'runs deep' - capable of evoking strong positive associations - good Google find-ability (< less than 500,000 hits ?) - easy to read - straightforward to pronounce - easy to spell - avoids hardwiring version numbers into the name (e.g., oauth2a) - works internationally - not cause confusion - not used by other major software projects / companies - not trademarked already (in international classes: 9, 16, 41, 42) Over a few months I collected a list of naming suggestions on behalf of the Perl community and presented them against similar criteria: https://nigelhamilton.com/perl-branding-proposal.html I'd be happy to help by creating a similar page for txauth to collect suggestions on behalf of the group etc. This can happen quietly in parallel - so as not to distract the main work of the group. It's important to say that *all* suggestions are useful - as it can often spark/inspire ideas in others. Happy to help. Cheers NIge [1] https://nigelhamilton.com/perl-branding-proposal.html --0000000000002e3ecc05a33a8795 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

Naming is indeed hard - and somethi= ng that normally takes a number of weeks / months.=C2=A0

Recently I helped the Perl community rename Perl 6 -> Raku [1]. Here a= re some features of a good protocol name (adapted):

  • distinctive
  • 'runs deep' - capable of evoking st= rong positive associations
  • good Goo= gle find-ability (< less than 500,000 hits ?)
  • easy to read
  • straight= forward to pronounce
  • easy to spell<= /li>
  • avoids hardwiring version numbers i= nto the name (e.g., oauth2a)
  • works = internationally=C2=A0
  • not cause con= fusion
  • not used by other major soft= ware projects / companies
  • not trademarked already=C2= =A0(in international classes: 9, 16, 41, 42)
Over a few= months I collected a list of naming suggestions on behalf of the Perl comm= unity and presented them against similar criteria:

I'd be happy to help by cr= eating a similar page for txauth to collect suggestions on behalf of the gr= oup etc. This can happen quietly in parallel - so as not to distract the ma= in work of the group.

It's important to say th= at all suggestions are useful - as it can often spark/inspire ideas = in others.

Happy to help.

Cheers

NIge


[1] ht= tps://nigelhamilton.com/perl-branding-proposal.html

<= /div>

--0000000000002e3ecc05a33a8795-- From nobody Tue Apr 14 00:07:39 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: txauth@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: txauth@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C60B3A0E5F for ; Tue, 14 Apr 2020 00:07:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LTjex9fh-Ti0 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 2020 00:07:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ot1-x341.google.com (mail-ot1-x341.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::341]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0880B3A0E5D for ; Tue, 14 Apr 2020 00:07:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot1-x341.google.com with SMTP id i27so8889971ota.7 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 2020 00:07:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=syt3v8mNFU2iwtkuIZpR7MBNQ2b+loVYc+EtYfjk5Y0=; b=VAHUIentaJnj7Yq3OjpbvDtdh9LlfH4DetKEmsKUQBYiWxHT7LU4LgIz+C9/Mf6OZq ey9xA2vo48PqD05Y5aIAcW7tROMS2jMVQpunZUnP69TeWzuc61utTYuWTqhNCjldLBdI 5MzDP2//e6G417qiD9FzeVsE9lGnOux2eFlrE5IfHRFyh9WeBV9664aYUHPjLvYj6x5+ Cbuw30nK9cbzwuX9LJDCOFZZNsuuBhCKaSDHW5nemu6Jfitrq7z34CtWZhD+4XOn+87T +4WV4XAmq22a5j/4giPon58c5Z3sf/aBLW1B9FRhmoMJMmNtJBcLku0zTBrNJlDk+B7n wkug== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=syt3v8mNFU2iwtkuIZpR7MBNQ2b+loVYc+EtYfjk5Y0=; b=MdL/sqhx4qKK6n6sI/nTv/AYdroBs1GES44rQZpaHLs9Oy+t8fFq/HW1cgcZnT3PnE 2+bnhCO/139qCKH6c6CdtdhjtuGLkmXDNuw4dXBRInhDPI0J2hjeLiw6UPwb8wXAlA2F zQM1TXk5xKQ7xHJucM/kFnOO75wQpCsf+KTAmxlOzAYWs9hUWF1LiZ2qJeU1yqnFE0We ZHclgQobc0Hxe8m253EoP2kLzgHIclp6qJtgsdW7FEOfBieF6vq4A5kLwHCe4V5sCpKO tjlqme5wvn/V4Od8ktfG5rHFvXEL0OwCjQ2IE/1Chx2n+SvxAmQIJ8nUaJxcKp9kk0ay /xfw== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuaJ95wEHoDyzp2DdGg6IOhsXcR1tNM0yksQmJKn4mB2yYpqCKXh MEiRu7rlwqIF7dMpGycnLxQ45e+p1VxlfmEWrEG5GWLj X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypIPN4V60eYAe4SMZo7HamYJTOKPn16d6XgpAnnbXPLfdfAfF64KI5Ob3Znf08qPtG4M4BuJ5ywH7ycC60h7Ec0= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:634f:: with SMTP id y15mr16498769otk.41.1586848051673; Tue, 14 Apr 2020 00:07:31 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Fabien Imbault Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 09:07:18 +0200 Message-ID: To: txauth@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006ebf6205a33adaa1" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Txauth] Txauth Digest, Vol 8, Issue 9 X-BeenThere: txauth@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 07:07:37 -0000 --0000000000006ebf6205a33adaa1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Mike is right on the point that transactions are mostly used when atomic actions are expected, like changes in a database. But I don't think it can be misleading to the average user, when used in the context of OAuth. The question is more whether this conveys the intent of the new proposal, to be honest I had to ask myself a few why Tx was used, but once I got around it, it sticked fairly well. My initial thoughts was that the scheme was more declarative in nature, by declaring intent between the involved parties as to what was expected. So I would have expected something like "declarative Auth". In any case, I agree with Justin that all fuzzy names or random acronyms should be avoided if possible (like nextgen for instance, because it can't be nextgen forever and also because we don't know what it brings compared to oldgen). To me TxAuth is good enough and I'm fine with it. In any case I do think it's way better than trade or trap (don't want to fall in a trap for sure, and trade has its own meaning). Cheers. Fabien > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Justin Richer > To: Mike Jones > Cc: Vijay IETF , "Matthew A. Miller" < > linuxwolf+ietf@outer-planes.net>, Lee McGovern = , > Amanjeev Sethi , "txauth@ietf.org" > Bcc: > Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 21:24:51 -0400 > Subject: Re: [Txauth] WG name: TxAuth? XAuth? Something else? > Mike, thanks for pulling up the definition. I agree we don=E2=80=99t want= to > redefine a well-used term, but I disagree that this is any attempt to > redefine the well-used term here; but instead I see us applying it in a w= ay > that is consistent with the design goals of at least one of the input > documents (XYZ) and I would argue with the core tenets of the solution > space that we=E2=80=99re looking into. > > While the definition that I quoted from Dick below is the best fit, I > still think that the units below are also appropriate. You begin the > transaction when the client starts things off. The transaction ends when > the token is issued. The token is the result of the transaction. While it= =E2=80=99s > not a perfect 1:1 mapping, since we=E2=80=99re talking about a multi-part= y protocol > and not the fundamental definition here, > > And I think with all of this argument it=E2=80=99s important to point out= that > I=E2=80=99ve been using an adjective form the whole time: Transactional > Authorization. It=E2=80=99s an authorization that has aspects and compone= nts and > artifacts of a transaction. That doesn=E2=80=99t mean that this protocol = is a > transaction in every aspect. Nor is it, I would argue, authorization in > every aspect. Just like =E2=80=9Cidentity=E2=80=9D covers many, many thin= gs, so do these > terms, and I think we=E2=80=99re honestly hitting enough of them for it t= o make > sense, still. > > I=E2=80=99m still fine with a *better* name if there is one to be had. Na= ming > things is hard. > > For some context, these are a few of the names that Roman and I tossed > around when we came up with TxAuth for the list name six months ago: > > TRAP: Transaction Authorization Protocol > > TRADE: Transaction Authorization and Delegation > > I=E2=80=99m not a big fan of either of those because I=E2=80=99m not big = on cute and > pronounceable acronyms, personally. I could live with =E2=80=9CTRADE=E2= =80=9D though if > there was a groundswell for it. > > =E2=80=94 Justin > > On Apr 13, 2020, at 7:37 PM, Mike Jones > wrote: > > The normal computer science use of the term =E2=80=9Ctransaction=E2=80=9D= involves a > proposed state change that either commits or aborts atomically. That > doesn=E2=80=99t match your description of the term below. It also doesn= =E2=80=99t match the > RFC 4949 definition of the term > (which does match my paraphrase above). It reads: > > $ transaction > 1. (I) A unit of interaction between an external entity and a > system, or between components within a system, that involves a > series of system actions or events. > > 2. (O) "A discrete event between user and systems that supports a > business or programmatic purpose." [M0404 > ] > > Tutorial: To maintain secure state, transactions need to be > processed coherently and reliably. Usually, they need to be > designed to be atomic, consistent, isolated, and durable [Gray > ]: > - "Atomic": All actions and events that comprise the transaction > are guaranteed to be completed successfully, or else the result > is as if none at all were executed. > - "Consistent": The transaction satisfies correctness constraints > defined for the data that is being processed. > - "Isolated": If two transactions are performed concurrently, > they do not interfere with each other, and it appears as though > the system performs one at a time. > - "Durable": System state and transaction semantics survive > system failures. > > We shouldn=E2=80=99t try to invent a new meaning for the well-established= computer > science term =E2=80=9Ctransaction=E2=80=9D in this working group. > > -- Mike > > P.S. On a personal note, I really continue to miss Jim Gray. > > *From:* Justin Richer > *Sent:* Monday, April 13, 2020 4:27 PM > *To:* Mike Jones > *Cc:* Vijay IETF ; Matthew A. Miller < > linuxwolf+ietf@outer-planes.net>; Lee McGovern = ; > Amanjeev Sethi ; txauth@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [Txauth] WG name: TxAuth? XAuth? Something else? > > > On Apr 13, 2020, at 6:25 PM, Mike Jones > wrote: > > Because the proposed starting points and likely outcomes aren=E2=80=99t > transactional, I believe we shouldn=E2=80=99t confuse people by calling i= t > Transactional Authorization or using the abbreviation =E2=80=9CTx=E2=80= =9D. > > > I=E2=80=99m not sure what you mean. XYZ, as a starting point, is transact= ional by > design. I have given several talks on this topic, which you have attended= . > And in fact I would argue that the entire intent-registration pattern, up= on > which both proposals are predicated, is transactional in nature as well. = As > Dick was kind enough to pull the definition earlier in this thread, let m= e > restate that definition: > > *a communicative action or activity involving two parties > or things that reciprocally affect or influence each other* > > The entire act of getting the delegation to occur is a transaction betwee= n > the client and the AS (or equivalent component). The client begins the > transaction by talking to the AS, the AS continues the transaction by > optionally getting the user involved, and the client continues the > transaction when the interaction portion is completed, and so on. While > this is intentionally built into XYZ, I would argue that even XAuth has > this feature. > > So with that in mind, I don=E2=80=99t think it=E2=80=99s misleading or co= nfusing at all. > I=E2=80=99m not sure why people keep referring to it as =E2=80=9Cincorrec= t=E2=80=9D. > > Yes, there are other definitions of =E2=80=9Ctransaction=E2=80=9D that do= not apply =E2=80=94 > words have more than one definition, and that happens. > > Since you asked, I will gladly offer my specific thoughts on your > suggestions. > > > > I haven=E2=80=99t heard responses to any of these brainstormed names yet: > > - Disaggregated Authorization (DisAuth) > - Componentized Authorization (CompAuth) > > > Neither of these capture what=E2=80=99s different about this. The compone= nts are > largely the same as they were in OAuth 2, UMA, OIDC, SAML, and related > protocols. The componentization isn=E2=80=99t the new thing here, so I do= n=E2=80=99t think > these are that good a fit. > > > > - > - Build-Your-Own Authorization (BYOAuth) > - Do-It-Yourself Authorization (DIYAuth) > > > These aren=E2=80=99t really what we=E2=80=99re after at all. In fact, the= proposed charter > is specifically about building a protocol instead of a framework, so eith= er > of these are very misleading. > > > > - > - Refactored Authorization (ReAuth or RefAuth) > > > This doesn=E2=80=99t offer any description of what=E2=80=99s gone on here= . Refactored from > what? Additionally I don=E2=80=99t believe this name flows naturally fro= m the > proposed shortenings. =E2=80=9CReAuth=E2=80=9D sounds like =E2=80=9CReAu= thorization=E2=80=9D and/or > =E2=80=9CReAuthentication=E2=80=9D, where as =E2=80=9CRefAuth=E2=80=9D so= unds like it should stand for > =E2=80=9Creference=E2=80=9D instead of =E2=80=9Crefactored=E2=80=9D. > > > > - > > > To those I=E2=80=99ll now add: > > - Alternative Authorization Protocol (AAP) > - Alternative Authorization (AltAuth) > - Reimagined Authorization (ReAuth) > > > All of these are problematic for the same reason that =E2=80=9CNewAuth=E2= =80=9D or > =E2=80=9CNgAuth=E2=80=9D are. They just say =E2=80=9Cit=E2=80=99s new=E2= =80=9D and don=E2=80=99t say anything about it. And > if we=E2=80=99re successful, it won=E2=80=99t be =E2=80=9Cnew" while peop= le are still using it. > > > > - > - Back-end Based Authorization (BBAuth) > > > This is a start in concept, as it starts to talk about what=E2=80=99s dif= ferent, > but =E2=80=9CBBAuth=E2=80=9D is already something =E2=80=94 one of the pr= edecessors of OAuth 1.0 > was =E2=80=9CBBAuth=E2=80=9D from Flickr (later Yahoo). Also, note that i= n this historical > context, the expansion is =E2=80=9CBrowser Based Auth=E2=80=9D, which cou= ld happen here > again. As one of the key aspects of what people are interested is > decoupling from the browser, we don=E2=80=99t want to have echos of that,= even if > the name weren=E2=80=99t already historically taken. > > > > - > > > And for fun, there=E2=80=99s still: > > - Dismembered Authorization > > Plus: > > - ZZAuth =E2=80=93 The Protocol > > > Please, no. > > > > Surely others must have other good ideas than don=E2=80=99t use the misle= ading > term =E2=80=9CTransactional=E2=80=9D or its abbreviation =E2=80=9CTx=E2= =80=9D. > > > > Again, as above, this is not misleading. That said, if there=E2=80=99s a = better > idea, I=E2=80=99m open to it. But for all of the reasons I keep repeating= now, > TxAuth is decent and I haven=E2=80=99t seen a better one. > > Thanks, > > =E2=80=94 Justin > > > Cheers, > -- Mike > > *From:* Txauth *On Behalf Of *Justin Richer > *Sent:* Monday, April 13, 2020 11:43 AM > *To:* Vijay IETF > *Cc:* Matthew A. Miller ; Lee McGovern < > Lee_McGovern@swissre.com>; Amanjeev Sethi ; > txauth@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [Txauth] WG name: TxAuth? XAuth? Something else? > > I appreciate the brainstorming of names here. > > I dislike names like =E2=80=9CNgAuth=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9CYAAP=E2=80=9D o= r the like because they rely on > this being =E2=80=9Cnew=E2=80=9D and it=E2=80=99s only =E2=80=9Cnew=E2=80= =9D right now. If we=E2=80=99re successful and > people are still talking about it in ten years then it won=E2=80=99t be n= ew anymore > and the name will just seem absurd. > > While we=E2=80=99re at it, we really can=E2=80=99t use =E2=80=9CXAuth=E2= =80=9D because it=E2=80=99s already been > something for 30 years: the X11 authentication command: > https://www.x.org/archive/X11R6.8.1/doc/xauth.1.html > > My project=E2=80=99s name =E2=80=9CXYZ=E2=80=9D would also be a bad name = for a lasting protocol, > as it=E2=80=99s too generic on its own. > > I still argue that we should call the protocol and the working group > *TxAuth*. Not only do I think the underlying =E2=80=9Ctransactional > authorization=E2=80=9D aspect is a key difference from what=E2=80=99s com= e before (the > nature of which I=E2=80=99ve described many, many times on this list), if= you go > and search for the term =E2=80=9Ctxauth=E2=80=9D you end up back at this = mailing list and > the posts that people have made about it. > > =E2=80=94 Justin > > > > On Apr 10, 2020, at 9:22 AM, Vijay IETF wrote: > > Assuming we are still at it... > > NgAuth (Next Gen Auth). > > On Tue, 24 Mar 2020 at 19:00, Amanjeev Sethi wrote: > > TOI (as in french you): TxAuth's OAuth's Improvement > > On Tue, Mar 24, 2020, at 4:25 AM, Lee McGovern wrote: > > YAAP > > > > Yet another authX protocol > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Txauth On Behalf Of Matthew A. Miller > > Sent: Monday, March 23, 2020 3:06 PM > > To: txauth@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [Txauth] WG name: TxAuth? XAuth? Something else? > > > > On 20/03/23 13:49, Brian Campbell wrote: > > > YAAAAS - Yet Another Authorization And Authentication Specification > > > > > > > +1 > > > > > > - m&m > > > > Matthew A. Miller > > > > > On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 1:39 PM Mike Jones > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > In brainstorming mode=E2=80=A6____ > > > > > > * Disaggregated Authorization (DisAuth)____ > > > * Componentized Authorization (CompAuth)____ > > > * Build-Your-Own Authorization (BYOAuth)____ > > > * Do-It-Yourself Authorization (DIYAuth)____ > > > * Refactored Authorization (ReAuth or RefAuth)____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > And for fun=E2=80=A6____ > > > > > > * Dismembered Authorization____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > -- Mike___= _ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > *From:* Txauth > > > *On Behalf Of *David Skaife > > > *Sent:* Saturday, March 21, 2020 11:22 AM > > > *To:* Justin Richer > > > > *Cc:* Yaron Sheffer > > >; txauth@ietf.org > > > ; Dick Hardt > > > > > > *Subject:* Re: [Txauth] WG name: TxAuth? XAuth? Something > > > else?____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > I think we're saying the same thing with regards to the working > > > group name - I was saying it *isn't* particularly important in > > > comparison to the name of the protocol (which obviously is very > > > important).____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 6:18 PM Justin Richer > > > wrote:____ > > > > > > I disagree on the working group name being super important. > > > Nobody knows that the OAuth WG is actually named =E2=80=9CThe= Web > > > Authorization Protocol Working Group=E2=80=9D, and nobody car= es.____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > My proposal is that we name the protocol we work on =E2=80=9C= TxAuth=E2=80=9D > > > (and keep the mailing list), and that we name the working gro= up > > > something like =E2=80=9CNext Generation Web Authorization Pro= tocol=E2=80=9D to > > > say what we=E2=80=99re doing.____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > -- Justin____ > > > > > > > > > > > > ____ > > > > > > On Mar 21, 2020, at 2:08 PM, David Skaife > > > > > > wrote:____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > Just to throw in another suggestion, to address Yaron's > > > point about some people mistakenly thinking that "Auth" > > > stands for authentication rather than authorization, how > > > about naming the working group *AuthZ*____ > > > > > > Nice and simple, and it makes it clear what the group is > > > focused on. > > > > > > I think the name of the actual protocol that we produce i= s > > > far, far more important that the name of the working grou= p > - > > > and the name of that protocol doesn't need to correlate t= o > > > the WG name. Also, we have much more time before we need = to > > > decide on the name of that protocol, even if the > > > initial draft documents that we produce end up using a > > > placeholder name.____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 5:44 PM Justin Richer > > > > wrote:____ > > > > > > As you can see in the email you replied to, that is n= ot > > > even close to what I said. I believe it is a > > > transaction, and therefore, I do not agree that it=E2= =80=99s > not > > > a transaction.____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > But if we take =E2=80=9CTransactional=E2=80=9D out of= the WG title, I > > > won=E2=80=99t be offended. If we just call it =E2=80= =9CTxAuth=E2=80=9D without > > > expansion, then that=E2=80=99s fine.____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > I do not like calling it =E2=80=9CXAuth=E2=80=9D. The= term =E2=80=9CTAuth" was > > > floated during naming the list, but rejected because > > > (among other reasons) it would likely be awkwardly > > > pronounced as =E2=80=9Ctowth=E2=80=9D or something. T= xAuth reads as > =E2=80=9CTee > > > - ex - oth=E2=80=9D more naturally, which was the int= ent. ____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > So how about we take a page from the OAuth working > group > > > and name it:____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > TxAuth - Next Generation Web Authorization Protocol > > > Working Group____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > =E2=80=94 Justin____ > > > > > > > > > > > > ____ > > > > > > On Mar 21, 2020, at 1:15 PM, Dick Hardt > > > >> > > > wrote:____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > To clarify -- you agree it is not a transaction, > and > > > we will take the word transaction out of the WG > > > title?____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 5:53 PM Justin Richer > > > > > > > wrote:____ > > > > > > Dick, thanks for pulling the definitions > > > up:____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > > a communicative action or activity involvin= g > > > two parties or things that reciprocally affec= t > > > or influence each other____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > This is the kind of thing that I had in mind. > > > The client and the AS are in a conversation > over > > > time that each one contributes to and each > > > changes. ____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > Also =E2=80=94 we can just as easily decide t= hat > > > =E2=80=9CTxAuth=E2=80=9D doesn=E2=80=99t stan= d for =E2=80=9CTransactional Auth=E2=80=9D > > > much the same way we decided that the =E2=80= =9CO=E2=80=9D in > > > =E2=80=9COAuth=E2=80=9D doesn=E2=80=99t stand= for =E2=80=9COpen=E2=80=9D anymore. ____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > None of the arguments below in favor of XAuth > > > have made me like that name better. If it=E2= =80=99s > just > > > a =E2=80=9Cplaceholder=E2=80=9D name, then wh= y come up with > > > something new?____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > =E2=80=94 Justin____ > > > > > > > > > > > > ____ > > > > > > On Mar 20, 2020, at 3:32 PM, Dick Hardt > > > > > > wrote:____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > not a transaction - there are multiple > > > transactions____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > backchannel innovation is combination of > > > here is who I am, and here is what I want > to > > > do____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > childhood trauma therapy group____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 6:56 PM Justin > > > Richer > > > wrote:____ > > > > > > Yes, naming things is hard =E2=80=94 = but I > still > > > believe in the name TxAuth. We=E2=80= =99re > moving > > > beyond OAuth, and taking the process = of > > > getting an authorization delegated to > > > the client software as a multi-step, > > > multi-party transaction is, I believe= , > > > the key insight that=E2=80=99s lettin= g us move > > > beyond OAuth=E2=80=99s limitations he= re. It=E2=80=99s > > > not just about going to the AS first = =E2=80=94 > > > we had that in OAuth 1 and we=E2=80= =99re > > > patching that into OAuth 2 with PAR..= I > > > really think it=E2=80=99s about the t= ransaction > > > at the core.. ____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > OAuth 2.0 had multi-step, multi-party. > > > TxAuth extends that.____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > I think the big shift is going to the AS. > > > This enables the request to be richer wit= h > > > JSON, instead of name/value pairs > parameters > > > in a URI. It allows the client and AS to > > > negotiate, and to short circuit having to > > > redirect the user to the AS. PAR does som= e > > > of this, but it is constrained by having = to > > > do it in the OAuth 2.0 context.____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > My concern is that the protocol is MUCH > MORE > > > than a transaction. While the initial > > > interaction between client, AS, user and = RO > > > is a transaction. The protocol also cover= s > > > the client and RS interactions. The acces= s > > > token refreshes. Access token revocation. > > > Access token introspection. As described = in > > > the charter, there is a whole lifecycle, > > > that consists of multiple > > > transactions.____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > From > > > https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transaction:____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > > > > Definition of /transaction/____ > > > > > > *1a**: *something transacted > > > < > https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transacted>/especially/ *: *an > > > exchange or transfer > > > < > https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transfer> of > > > goods, services, or > > > fundselectronic /transactions/____ > > > > > > *b: transactions*/ plural/ *: *the often > > > published record of the meeting of a > society > > > or association____ > > > > > > *2a**: *an act, process, or instance > > > of transacting > > > > > > ____ > > > > > > *b**: *a communicative action or activity > > > involving two parties or things that > > > reciprocally affect or influence each > > > other____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > Calling the protocol a transaction will > > > confusing to people.____ > > > > > > ____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > Having come of age in the 1990=E2=80= =99s, I > have > > > particular dislike for XAuth. It soun= ds > > > too =E2=80=9CX-TREME=E2=80=9D and =E2= =80=9CX-CITING=E2=80=9D, and if > you > > > read either of those with a growling > > > yell in your head then you know exact= ly > > > what I=E2=80=99m talking about.____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > In case you are confused, this is not a > > > childhood trauma support group. :)____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > Unlike "X-TREME" or "X-CITING", XAuth is > > > using the "X" as a placeholder. X-Men, > Xbox, > > > X-Factor, X-files. ____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > > > > https://www.businessinsider.com/the-indisputable-power-of-brand-x-201= 2 > > > -4____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > > > > https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/358181/whats-the-purpose-= o > > > f-using-letter-x-or-x-as-a-suffix-in-brand-names____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > ____ > > > > > > And to Dick=E2=80=99s rationale for t= he name > > > below, I absolutely do NOT see this > work > > > as =E2=80=9COAuth with all the extra = features=E2=80=9D. > > > I think that does a disservice to the > > > kind of change we have an opportunity > to > > > make here. ____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > From the charter ____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > "It will expand upon the uses cases > > > currently supported by OAuth 2.0 and > > > OpenID Connect (itself an extension o= f > > > OAuth 2.0)"____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > Which sounds pretty similar to =E2=80=9CO= Auth with > > > all the extra features=E2=80=9D____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > While I think XAuth captures what we are > > > doing, a placeholder name would be > > > preferable to an incorrect descriptive na= me > > > such as TxAuth.____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > For example, XYZ is a good placeholder > name. > > > Or XYZAuth. Let's not mislead people.____ > > > > > > ____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > =E2=80=94 Justin____ > > > > > > > > > > > > ____ > > > > > > On Mar 16, 2020, at 7:04 PM, Dick > > > Hardt > > > > > > wrote:____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > Hello everyone____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > I prompted a thread around the na= me > > > of the protocol a while back:____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > > > > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/txauth/ZVQVbHt4ADqehKrBDXOrTr_s= _ > > > wc/____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > As Justin stated "naming is > > > hard"____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > Wearing my marketing hat I want t= o > > > ensure that the name will be > > > perceived properly in the broader > > > community.____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > A recent example that comes to mi= nd > > > are the privacy related works on > the > > > browser storage API. Given that > > > name, one would think that it is > > > local storage. It is actually abo= ut > > > browser cookies.____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > Justin discussed his reasons for > > > TxAuth in the thread above (and I= 'm > > > sure in other places)____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > I chose XAuth in my draft to > reflect > > > the eXtensibility goal that we ha= ve > > > over OAuth -- and XAuth is OAuth > but > > > with an X to reflect all the extr= a > > > features. =3D)____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > Other suggestions?____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > This will be an agenda item in th= e > > > BoF -- but the name will NOT be a= n > > > open discussion item -- we will > > > summarize what has been discussed > on > > > the list and perhaps do a poll of > > > options presented unless consensu= s > > > is obvious from this thread.____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > /Dick____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > =E1=90=A7____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > -- > > --0000000000006ebf6205a33adaa1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,=C2=A0

Mike is right on the point that transactions are mostly used when= atomic actions are expected, like changes in a database. But I don't t= hink it can be misleading to the average user, when used in the context of = OAuth. The question is more whether this conveys the intent of the new prop= osal, to be honest I had to ask myself a few why Tx was used, but once I go= t around it, it sticked fairly well.=C2=A0

My initial thoughts was that the scheme was more declara= tive in nature, by declaring intent between the involved parties as to what= was expected. So I would have expected something like "declarative Au= th".

In any case, I= agree with Justin that all fuzzy names or random acronyms should be avoide= d if possible (like nextgen for instance, because it can't be nextgen f= orever and also because we don't know what it brings compared to oldgen= ).

To me TxAuth is good = enough and I'm fine with it. In any case I do think it's way better= than trade or trap (don't want to fall in a trap for sure, and trade h= as its own meaning).=C2=A0

Cheers.=C2=A0
Fabien

<= /div>





=C2=A0<= /div>



---------- Forwarded message ----------
From:=C2=A0Justin Ri= cher <jricher@mit.edu>
To:=C2=A0Mike Jones = <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
C= c:=C2=A0Vijay IETF <vijay.ietf@gmail.com>= , "Matthew A. Miller" <li= nuxwolf+ietf@outer-planes.net>, Lee McGovern <Lee_McGovern@swissre.com>, Amanjeev Sethi <aj@amanjeev.com>, "txauth@ietf.org= " <txauth@ietf.org>
Bcc:=C2=A0
Date= :=C2=A0Mon, 13 Apr 2020 21:24:51 -0400
Subject:=C2=A0Re: [Txauth] WG nam= e: TxAuth? XAuth? Something else?
Mike, thanks for pulling up the definition.= I agree we don=E2=80=99t want to redefine a well-used term, but I disagree= that this is any attempt to redefine the well-used term here; but instead = I see us applying it in a way that is consistent with the design goals of a= t least one of the input documents (XYZ) and I would argue with the core te= nets of the solution space that we=E2=80=99re looking into.=C2=A0

While the definition that I quoted from Dick below is the b= est fit, I still think that the units below are also appropriate. You begin= the transaction when the client starts things off. The transaction ends wh= en the token is issued. The token is the result of the transaction. While i= t=E2=80=99s not a perfect 1:1 mapping, since we=E2=80=99re talking about a = multi-party protocol and not the fundamental definition here,=C2=A0

And I think with all of this argument it=E2=80=99s import= ant to point out that I=E2=80=99ve been using an adjective form the whole t= ime: Transactional Authorization. It=E2=80=99s an authorization that has as= pects and components and artifacts of a transaction. That doesn=E2=80=99t m= ean that this protocol is a transaction in every aspect. Nor is it, I would= argue, authorization in every aspect. Just like =E2=80=9Cidentity=E2=80=9D= covers many, many things, so do these terms, and I think we=E2=80=99re hon= estly hitting enough of them for it to make sense, still.

I=E2=80=99m still fine with a *better* name if there is one to be h= ad. Naming things is hard.

For some context, these= are a few of the names that Roman and I tossed around when we came up with= TxAuth for the list name six months ago:

TRAP: Transaction Authorization Protoc= ol

TR= ADE: Transaction Authorization and Delegation

I=E2= =80=99m not a big fan of either of those because I=E2=80=99m not big on cut= e and pronounceable acronyms, personally. I could live with =E2=80=9CTRADE= =E2=80=9D though if there was a groundswell for it.

=C2=A0=E2=80=94 Justin

On Apr = 13, 2020, at 7:37 PM, Mike Jones <Michael= .Jones@microsoft.com> wrote:

The normal computer science use of= the term =E2=80=9Ctransaction=E2=80=9D involves a proposed state change th= at either commits or aborts atomically.=C2=A0 That doesn=E2=80=99t match yo= ur description of the term below.=C2=A0 It also doesn=E2=80=99t match the=C2=A0RFC 4949=C2=A0definition of the term = (which does match my paraphrase above).=C2=A0 It reads:
=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0 $ transaction
= =C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 1. (I) A unit of interaction between an external e= ntity and a
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 syst= em, or between components within a system, that involves a
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 series of system actions or even= ts.
=C2=A0
= =C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 2. (O) "A discrete event between user and sys= tems that supports a
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0 business or programmatic purpose." [M0404]=
=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Tutorial: To maintain secure state, transactions need to= be
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 processed co= herently and reliably. Usually, they need to be
<= div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san= s-serif">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 designed to be atomic, consistent, isolated= , and durable [Gray]:
= =C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -=C2=A0 "Atomic": All actions and events= that comprise the transaction
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 are guaranteed to be completed successful= ly, or else the result
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 is as if none at all were executed.<= /span>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -=C2=A0 "Consistent"= : The transaction satisfies correctness constraints
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 defined for the data = that is being processed.
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 -=C2=A0 "Isolated": If two transactions are performed c= oncurrently,
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 they do not interfere with each other, and it appears as th= ough
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0 the system performs one at a time.
=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -=C2=A0 "Durable": System state and t= ransaction semantics survive
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 system failures.
<= div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san= s-serif">=C2=A0
We shouldn=E2=80=99t try to = invent a new meaning for the well-established computer science term =E2=80= =9Ctransaction=E2=80=9D in this working group.
=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 --= Mike
=C2=A0
P.S.=C2=A0 On a personal note, I really continue to miss Jim Gray.<= /u>
= =C2=A0
=
From:=C2=A0Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>=C2=A0
Sent:=C2=A0Monday, April 13, 2020 4:27 PM
To:=C2=A0Mike Jo= nes <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com><= br>Cc:=C2=A0Vijay IETF <vija= y.ietf@gmail.com>; Matthew A. Miller <linuxwolf+ietf@outer-planes.net>; Lee McGovern <Lee_McGovern@swissre.com>; Amanjeev Sethi <<= a href=3D"mailto:aj@amanjeev.com" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" = target=3D"_blank">aj@amanjeev.com>; txauth@ietf.o= rg
Subject:=C2=A0Re: [Txauth] WG name: TxAuth? X= Auth? Something else?
=C2= =A0
On Apr 13, 2020, at 6:25 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@mic= rosoft.com> wrote:
=C2=A0<= u>
Because = the proposed starting points and likely outcomes aren=E2=80=99t transaction= al, I believe we shouldn=E2=80=99t confuse people by calling it Transaction= al Authorization or using the abbreviation =E2=80=9CTx=E2=80=9D.<= /u>
=C2=A0
I=E2=80=99m not sure what you mean. XYZ, as a starti= ng point, is transactional by design. I have given several talks on this to= pic, which you have attended. And in fact I would argue that the entire int= ent-registration pattern, upon which both proposals are predicated, is tran= sactional in nature as well. As Dick was kind enough to pull the definition= earlier in this thread, let me restate that definition:
=C2=A0
=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0a communicative action or activity involvi= ng two parties or things that reciprocally affect or influence each other
=C2=A0
=
The entire act of getting the delegation to occur is a trans= action between the client and the AS (or equivalent component). The client = begins the transaction by talking to the AS, the AS continues the transacti= on by optionally getting the user involved, and the client continues the tr= ansaction when the interaction portion is completed, and so on. While this = is intentionally built into XYZ, I would argue that even XAuth has this fea= ture.
=C2=A0
So with that in mind, I don=E2=80=99t think it=E2=80=99s = misleading or confusing at all. I=E2=80=99m not sure why people keep referr= ing to it as =E2=80=9Cincorrect=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0
=C2=A0
Yes, there are = other definitions of =E2=80=9Ctransaction=E2=80=9D that do not apply =E2=80= =94 words have more than one definition, and that happens.
=C2=A0
Since you asked, I will gladly offer my specific thoughts on your suggesti= ons.


=C2=A0
I haven=E2=80=99t heard resp= onses to any of these brainstormed names yet:
  • Disaggregated Authorization (DisAuth)
    • =
  • Componentized Authorization (CompAuth)
=C2=A0
=
Neither of these capture what=E2=80=99s different abou= t this. The components are largely the same as they were in OAuth 2, UMA, O= IDC, SAML, and related protocols. The componentization isn=E2=80=99t the ne= w thing here, so I don=E2=80=99t think these are that good a fit.=


  • =C2=A0
  • Build-Your-Own Authorization (BYOAuth)
  • Do-It-Yourself Authorization (DIYA= uth)
=C2=A0=
These aren=E2=80=99t really what we=E2=80= =99re after at all. In fact, the proposed charter is specifically about bui= lding a protocol instead of a framework, so either of these are very mislea= ding.


  • = =C2=A0
  • Refactored Authorization (ReA= uth or RefAuth)
= =C2=A0
This doesn=E2=80=99t offer a= ny description of what=E2=80=99s gone on here. Refactored from what? Additi= onally =C2=A0I don=E2=80=99t believe this name flows naturally from the pro= posed shortenings. =C2=A0=E2=80=9CReAuth=E2=80=9D sounds like =E2=80=9CReAu= thorization=E2=80=9D and/or =E2=80=9CReAuthentication=E2=80=9D, where as = =E2=80=9CRefAuth=E2=80=9D sounds like it should stand for =E2=80=9Creferenc= e=E2=80=9D instead of =E2=80=9Crefactored=E2=80=9D.


  • =C2=A0
<= div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san= s-serif">=C2=A0
To those I=E2=80= =99ll now add:
  • Alternative Au= thorization Protocol (AAP)
  • Al= ternative Authorization (AltAuth)
  • Reimagined Authorization (ReAuth)
=C2=A0
All of = these are problematic for the same reason that =E2=80=9CNewAuth=E2=80=9D or= =E2=80=9CNgAuth=E2=80=9D are. They just say =E2=80=9Cit=E2=80=99s new=E2= =80=9D and don=E2=80=99t say anything about it. And if we=E2=80=99re succes= sful, it won=E2=80=99t be =E2=80=9Cnew" while people are still using i= t.


  • = =C2=A0
  • Back-end Based Authorization = (BBAuth)
= =C2=A0
This is a start in concept, as it s= tarts to talk about what=E2=80=99s different, but =E2=80=9CBBAuth=E2=80=9D = is already something =E2=80=94 one of the predecessors of OAuth 1.0 was =E2= =80=9CBBAuth=E2=80=9D from Flickr (later Yahoo). Also, note that in this hi= storical context, the expansion is =E2=80=9CBrowser Based Auth=E2=80=9D, wh= ich could happen here again. As one of the key aspects of what people are i= nterested is decoupling from the browser, we don=E2=80=99t want to have ech= os of that, even if the name weren=E2=80=99t already historically taken.=


  • =C2=A0
=C2=A0
And for fun, there=E2=80=99s still:
  • Dismembered Authorization
    • = Plus:
  • ZZAuth =E2=80=93 The Protocol
    • =C2=A0
    Plea= se, no.


    =C2=A0
    =
    Surely others must have other = good ideas than don=E2=80=99t use the misleading term =E2=80=9CTransactiona= l=E2=80=9D or its abbreviation =E2=80=9CTx=E2=80=9D.
    =C2=A0
    =C2=A0<= /u>
    Again, as above, this is not misleading. That= said, if there=E2=80=99s a better idea, I=E2=80=99m open to it. But for al= l of the reasons I keep repeating now, TxAuth is decent and I haven=E2=80= =99t seen a better one.
    =C2= =A0
    Thanks,
    =
    =C2=A0
    =C2=A0=E2=80=94 Ju= stin


    =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Cheers,
    =C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -- Mike
    =C2=A0
    From:=C2=A0Txauth <txauth-bounces@ietf.org>=C2=A0<= /span>On Behalf Of=C2=A0Justin Richer
    Sent:=C2=A0    Monday, April 13, 2020 11:43 AM
    To:=C2=A0<= /span>Vijay IETF <vijay.ietf@gmail.com>
    Cc:=C2=A0Matthew A. Miller <linuxwolf+ietf@outer-planes.net>; Le= e McGovern <Lee_McGovern@swissre.com>; Amanjeev Sethi <aj@amanjeev.com<= /a>>;=C2=A0txauth@ietf.org
    Subject:=C2=A0= Re: [Txauth] WG name: TxAuth? XAuth? Something else?
    =C2=A0
    =C2=A0
    I dislike names like =E2=80=9CNgAuth=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9CYAAP=E2=80= =9D or the like because they rely on this being =E2=80=9Cnew=E2=80=9D and i= t=E2=80=99s only =E2=80=9Cnew=E2=80=9D right now. If we=E2=80=99re successf= ul and people are still talking about it in ten years then it won=E2=80=99t= be new anymore and the name will just seem absurd.=C2=A0
    =C2=A0
    While we=E2=80=99re at it, we really can=E2=80=99t use =E2= =80=9CXAuth=E2=80=9D because it=E2=80=99s already been something for 30 yea= rs: the X11 authentication command:=C2=A0= https://www.x.org/archive/X11R6.8.1/doc/xauth.1.html
    =C2=A0
    My project=E2=80=99s name =E2=80=9CXYZ=E2=80=9D would also = be a bad name for a lasting protocol, as it=E2=80=99s too generic on its ow= n.=C2=A0
    =C2=A0
    I still argue that we should cal= l the protocol and the working group=C2=A0TxAuth. Not o= nly do I think the underlying =E2=80=9Ctransactional authorization=E2=80=9D= aspect is a key difference from what=E2=80=99s come before (the nature of = which I=E2=80=99ve described many, many times on this list), if you go and = search for the term =E2=80=9Ctxauth=E2=80=9D you end up back at this mailin= g list and the posts that people have made about it.=C2=A0
    =C2=A0
    =C2=A0=E2=80=94 Justin



    On Apr 10, 2020, at 9:22 AM, Vij= ay IETF <vijay.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
    =
    =C2=A0
    Ass= uming we are still at it...
    = =C2=A0
    NgAuth (Next Gen = Auth).
    =C2=A0=
    On Tue, 24 Mar 2020 at 19:00, Aman= jeev Sethi <aj@amanjeev.com> wrote:
    TOI (as in french you): TxAuth's OAuth's Improv= ement

    On Tue, Mar 24, 2020, at 4:25 AM, Lee McGovern wrote:
    > = YAAP=C2=A0
    >=C2=A0
    > Yet another auth= X protocol
    >=C2=A0
    >=C2=A0
    > --= ---Original Message-----
    > From: Txauth <txauth-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Matthew A. Miller
    > Sent: Monday, March 23, 2020 3= :06 PM
    > To:=C2=A0    txauth@ietf.org
    > Subject: Re: [Txaut= h] WG name: TxAuth? XAuth? Something else?
    >=C2=A0
    &g= t; On 20/03/23 13:49, Brian Campbell wrote:
    > > YAAAAS - Yet Anoth= er Authorization And Authentication Specification
    > >=C2=A0<= /span>
    >=C2=A0
    > +1
    >=C2=A0
    = >=C2=A0
    > - m&m
    >=C2=A0
    >= ; Matthew A. Miller
    >=C2=A0
    > > On Mon, Mar 23,= 2020 at 1:39 PM Mike Jones=C2=A0
    > > <Michael.Jon= es=3D40m= icrosoft.com@dmarc..ietf.org
    > > <mailto:40microsoft.com@dmarc.i= etf.org>> wrote:
    > >=C2=A0
    > >=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0In brainstorming mode=E2=80=A6____
    > >=C2= =A0
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0* Disaggregated Authoriza= tion (DisAuth)____
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0* Componentized A= uthorization (CompAuth)____
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0* Build-= Your-Own Authorization (BYOAuth)____
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0* Do-It-Yourself Authorization (DIYAuth)____
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0* Refactored Authorization (ReAuth or RefAuth)____
    > >= ;=C2=A0
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=C2=A0__
    > >= ;=C2=A0
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0And for fun=E2=80=A6__= __
    > >=C2=A0
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*= Dismembered Authorization____
    > >=C2=A0
    > >= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=C2=A0__
    > >=C2=A0
    > >= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -- Mike____
    > >=C2=A0
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=C2=A0__
    > >=C2=A0
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*From:* Txauth <txauth-b= ounces@ietf.org
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:txauth-bounce= s@ietf.org>> *On Behalf Of *David Skaife
    > >=C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0*Sent:* Saturday, March 21, 2020 11:22 AM
    > >=C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0*To:* Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu=C2=A0<mailto:= jricher@m= it.edu>>
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*Cc:* Yaron Sheffer <= yar= onf.ietf@gmail.com
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:yaronf.iet= f@gmail.com>>;=C2=A0txauth@ietf.org
    > >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:txauth@ietf.org>; Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com=
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>>> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*Subject:* Re: [Txauth] WG name: TxAuth? XAut= h? Something=C2=A0
    > > else?____
    > >= =C2=A0
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=C2=A0__
    > >= =C2=A0
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I think we're saying the = same thing with regards to the working
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0grou= p name - I was saying it *isn't* particularly important in
    > >= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0comparison to the name of the protocol (which obviously= is very
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0important).____
    > >= =C2=A0
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=C2=A0__
    > >= =C2=A0
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 6:18 = PM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:= jricher@m= it.edu>> wrote:____
    > >=C2=A0
    > >= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I disagree on the working group name bein= g super important.
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Nobody kno= ws that the OAuth WG is actually named =E2=80=9CThe Web
    > >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Authorization Protocol Working Group=E2=80=9D, a= nd nobody cares.____
    > >=C2=A0
    > >=C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=C2=A0__
    > >=C2=A0
    > = >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0My proposal is that we name the proto= col we work on =E2=80=9CTxAuth=E2=80=9D
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0(and keep the mailing list), and that we name the working grou= p
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0something like =E2=80=9CNex= t Generation Web Authorization Protocol=E2=80=9D to
    > >=C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0say what we=E2=80=99re doing.____
    > >=C2=A0
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=C2=A0__
    = > >=C2=A0
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0-- Justin____
    > >=C2=A0
    > >=C2= =A0
    > >=C2=A0
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0____
    > >=C2=A0
    > >=C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On Mar 21, 2020, at 2:08 PM, David Sk= aife
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<blue.ringed.octopus.guy@gmail.com
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:blue.ringed.octopus.guy@gmai= l.com>> wrote:____
    > >=C2=A0
    > >= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=C2=A0__
    > >=C2=A0
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0Just to throw in another suggestion, to address Yaron's
    > >= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0point about some people mis= takenly thinking that "Auth"
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0stands for authentication rather than authorization= , how
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0about nam= ing the working group *AuthZ*____
    > >=C2=A0
    > &= gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Nice and simple, and it = makes it clear what the group is
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0focused on.
    > >=C2=A0
    > >= ;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I think the name of the ac= tual protocol that we produce is
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0far, far more important that the name of the working gr= oup -
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and the n= ame of that protocol doesn't need to correlate to
    > >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the WG name. Also, we have much mo= re time before we need to
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0decide on the name of that protocol, even if the
    > >= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0initial=C2=A0draft document= s that we produce end up using a
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0placeholder name.____
    > >=C2=A0> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=C2=A0__
    &g= t; >=C2=A0
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 5:44 PM Justin Richer
    > >=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<jricher@mit.edu=C2=A0<mailto:jricher@mit.edu>> wrote:____
    > >=C2=A0=
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= As you can see in the email you replied to, that is not
    > >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0even close to what I= said. I believe it is a
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0transaction, and therefore, I do not agree that it= =E2=80=99s not
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0a transaction.____
    > >=C2=A0
    > &g= t;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=C2=A0__<= br>> >=C2=A0
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0But if we take =E2=80=9CTransactional=E2=80= =9D out of the WG title, I
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0won=E2=80=99t be offended. If we just call it = =E2=80=9CTxAuth=E2=80=9D without
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0expansion, then that=E2=80=99s fine.____<= br>> >=C2=A0
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=C2=A0__
    > >=C2=A0> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I = do not like calling it =E2=80=9CXAuth=E2=80=9D. The term =E2=80=9CTAuth&quo= t; was
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0floated during naming the list, but rejected because
    > >=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(among other rea= sons) it would likely be awkwardly
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0pronounced as =E2=80=9Ctowth=E2=80=9D or = something. TxAuth reads as =E2=80=9CTee
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- ex - oth=E2=80=9D more naturally= , which was the intent.=C2=A0____
    > >=C2=A0
    > &= gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=C2=A0__=
    > >=C2=A0
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0So how about we take a page from the OAut= h working group
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and name it:____
    > >=C2=A0
    > &= gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=C2=A0__=
    > >=C2=A0
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0TxAuth - Next Generation Web Authorizatio= n Protocol
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0Working Group____
    > >=C2=A0
    > >=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=C2=A0__
    &g= t; >=C2=A0
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=C2=A0__
    > >=C2=A0
    &g= t; >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0= =E2=80=94 Justin____
    > >=C2=A0
    > >=C2= =A0
    > >=C2=A0
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0____
    > >=C2=A0
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On Mar 21, 2020, at 1:15 PM, Dick Hardt
    > >=C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<<= a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" style=3D"color:blue;text-decoration:= underline" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">dick.= hardt@gmail.com=C2=A0<mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>&g= t;
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0wrote:____
    > >=C2=A0
    > >=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__= =C2=A0__
    > >=C2=A0
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0To clarify -- you ag= ree it is not a transaction, and
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0we will take the word trans= action out of the WG
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0title?____
    > >=C2=A0
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=C2=A0__
    > >=C2=A0
    > >=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On= Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 5:53 PM Justin Richer
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<jricher@mit.edu= =C2=A0<mailto:jricher@mit.edu>>=C2=A0
    >= > wrote:____
    > >=C2=A0
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0Dick, thanks for pulling the definitions=C2=A0
    > >= up:____
    > >=C2=A0
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=C2= =A0__
    > >=C2=A0
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2= =A0a communicative action or activity involving
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0two parties or things that reciprocally affect
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0or influence each other____
    > >=C2=A0
    > >= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=C2=A0__
    > >=C2=A0
    > >=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0This is the kind of thing that I had in mind.
    > >=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0The client and the AS are in a conversation over
    > >= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0time that each one contributes to and each
    > >=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0changes.=C2=A0____
    > >=C2=A0
    > >= ;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=C2=A0__
    > >=C2=A0
    > >=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0Also =E2=80=94 we can just as easily decide that
    > >= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=9CTxAuth=E2=80=9D doesn=E2=80=99t stand for =E2=80= =9CTransactional Auth=E2=80=9D
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0much the same wa= y we decided that the =E2=80=9CO=E2=80=9D in
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =E2=80=9COAuth=E2=80=9D doesn=E2=80=99t stand for =E2=80=9COpen=E2=80=9D an= ymore.=C2=A0____
    > >=C2=A0
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0__=C2=A0__
    > >=C2=A0
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0No= ne of the arguments below in favor of XAuth
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0ha= ve made me like that name better. If it=E2=80=99s just
    > >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0a =E2=80=9Cplaceholder=E2=80=9D name, then why come up with
    &g= t; >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0something new?____
    > >=C2=A0<= br>> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=C2=A0__
    > >=C2=A0
    &g= t; >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=E2=80=94 Justin____
    > >=C2=A0=
    > >=C2=A0
    > >=C2=A0
    = > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0____
    > >=C2=A0
    > >= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On Mar 20, 2020, at 3:32 PM, Dick Hardt
    &= gt; >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<dick.hardt@gmail.com
    > >= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>> wrot= e:____
    > >=C2=A0
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0__=C2=A0__
    > >=C2=A0
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=C2=A0__
    > >=C2=A0
    > >=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=C2=A0__
    > >=C2=A0
    &g= t; >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=C2=A0__
    > >=C2=A0
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0not a transaction - there a= re multiple
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0transactions____
    = > >=C2=A0
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=C2= =A0__
    > >=C2=A0
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0backchannel innovation is combination=C2=A0of
    > >=C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0here is who I am, and here is what I want to
    > &g= t;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0do____
    > >=C2=A0
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    > >=C2=A0
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=C2=A0__
    > >=C2=A0
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0childhood trauma= therapy group____
    > >=C2=A0
    > >=C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=C2=A0__
    > >=C2=A0
    > >= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=C2=A0__
    > >=C2=A0> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=C2=A0__
    > >=C2= =A0
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at= 6:56 PM Justin
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Richer <jricher@mit.ed= u
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:jricher@mit.edu>&g= t; wrote:____
    > >=C2=A0
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Yes, naming things is hard =E2=80=94 but I still=
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0believe in the name= TxAuth. We=E2=80=99re moving
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0beyond OAuth, and taking the process of
    > >=C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0getting an authorization delegated to
    = > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the client software as = a multi-step,
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0multi-= party transaction is, I believe,
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the key insight that=E2=80=99s letting us move
    > >= ;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0beyond OAuth=E2=80=99s limitat= ions here. It=E2=80=99s
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0not just about going to the AS first =E2=80=94
    > >=C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0we had that in OAuth 1 and we=E2=80=99re<= br>> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0patching that into O= Auth 2 with PAR.. I
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0really think it=E2=80=99s about the transaction
    > >=C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0at the core..=C2=A0____
    > >=C2=A0
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=C2=A0__
    > = >=C2=A0
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0OAuth 2.0= had multi-step, multi-party.
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Tx= Auth extends that.____
    > >=C2=A0
    > >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=C2=A0__
    > >=C2=A0
    > = >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I think the big shift is going to the AS.=
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0This enables the request to be ri= cher with
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0JSON, instead of name/v= alue pairs parameters
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0in a URI. It= allows the client and AS to
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0negot= iate, and to short circuit having to
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0redirect the user to the AS. PAR does=C2=A0some
    > >=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0of this, but it is constrained by having to
    >= >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0do it in the OAuth 2.0 context.____
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    > >=C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0than a transaction. While the initial
    > >=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0interaction between client, AS, user and RO
    &= gt; >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0is a transaction. The protocol also c= overs
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the client=C2=A0and RS inte= ractions. The access
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    > > = transactions.____
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    &g= t; >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0/Dick____=
    > >=C2=A0
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=C2=A0__
    > >=C2=A0> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=C2= =A0__
    > >=C2=A0
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=C2=A0__
    > >=C2=A0
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__= =C2=A0__
    > >=C2=A0
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=C2=A0__
    > >=C2=A0
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0=E1=90=A7____
    &g= t; >=C2=A0
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0__=C2=A0__
    > >=C2=A0
    > >=C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0__=C2=A0__
    > >=C2=A0
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=C2=A0__
    > >=C2=A0
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--
    --0000000000006ebf6205a33adaa1-- From nobody Tue Apr 14 08:07:13 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: txauth@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: txauth@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 157803A08B0 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 2020 08:07:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=pingidentity.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vHkNf2HXLw3z for ; Tue, 14 Apr 2020 08:07:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lj1-x22b.google.com (mail-lj1-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 84CF33A08AF for ; Tue, 14 Apr 2020 08:07:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x22b.google.com with SMTP id v9so93716ljk.12 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 2020 08:07:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=pingidentity.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=LjHGMUP6rgpKCFgXhPORtxk/3OOEnd5OMbBTdPIowxI=; b=ArFnMQzP0j6sp+rgUhnOG7RfTs+P820k78M2DyFkJkzftWEloXT6cO/9u1IW17vbYJ vwiKsDJfwLbiAYi+vI9rwO7ec+MBaL+6AvYHqPCqsUquomX8zNysgHQQx4M8kDT5NDRl lY61fW8Dmp5X5VlzqWk8ZBRY6LFgqTGN4e8ExnGz5zl0xtwcwQm5V2dIqAMyQtdoZ+z4 tU7eWmjCgcjanEaJeEs0F9MUSZgN5YpaH78szwUOWLOcubhchq/QPgCy4pBCVCKchg9G epgHMouQnAhBpKsa1dg+IR2Gs0zmekoKhON2RdS92rcP1sCSlPRQkaNWESJL8xzK5sKg OMdg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=LjHGMUP6rgpKCFgXhPORtxk/3OOEnd5OMbBTdPIowxI=; b=rn230I6cKFfuJWgav4MvAbfFHtsgLdZyQl3u9ppHNMlY0/w6V2vIBuO8p+TMCd9aZW laDZuaYahc9PtSHqgvBwMjZ1CBkGp5SEA8VkThN+AFwPQcjwHf1sMRvn7Wdi464JLMAN 5rYk1k0BBsZ7m0RGsk7o6eRVw1bQ2M5iADI546XMqeJH7g9rzfGItYVRBE6jFiqZuPBK kkh5CECpLLuXNrRGEa/NqN+oG1qT+Bn4VqHRt+3T5HeovXBgS3+ipo/gwkDElWmsNBt0 7wJZyxzIoQE2Vt136nFct4umHVq0W3g8ifHSeldH/0cEfsDcbaAzyUaUm69V1Q+ekAOU bDyQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuY4U2WoM9z8rQjf85IMh9oAp0mU5lZHM1KyKmNRMRKIdxZe4c5I Z6XqbHU20zoOwKNB1FE7POKwP0MUDO8295W+tEKHCzf/Ig5IGQqoCB0ZV6LKYvMyfftKSkPSt5u 5R0viAswn2WAwdtc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypLVZkcbOOZdpfBT9GrBX+KbDSUEne+UuT2vIlKn2By9ZHn/yqrO6ipGyEzBHwAQEZMhY/PnSHH04fLUXRbmdVQ= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:8e68:: with SMTP id t8mr424553ljk.20.1586876828580; Tue, 14 Apr 2020 08:07:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <2ebd1c3e4b844a8195649cf83546b749@CHRP5009.corp.gwpnet.com> <475762FD-D73A-4850-95A6-F9E130BA8CFE@mit.edu> In-Reply-To: <475762FD-D73A-4850-95A6-F9E130BA8CFE@mit.edu> From: Brian Campbell Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 09:06:42 -0600 Message-ID: To: Justin Richer Cc: Vijay IETF , "Matthew A. Miller" , Lee McGovern , Amanjeev Sethi , "txauth@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000abaf7c05a3418daf" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Txauth] WG name: TxAuth? XAuth? Something else? X-BeenThere: txauth@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 15:07:12 -0000 --000000000000abaf7c05a3418daf Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The "Yet Another" from "YAAAP" doesn't rely on it being new. It just relies on there being others. On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 12:43 PM Justin Richer wrote: > > I dislike names like =E2=80=9CNgAuth=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9CYAAP=E2=80=9D o= r the like because they rely on > this being =E2=80=9Cnew=E2=80=9D and it=E2=80=99s only =E2=80=9Cnew=E2=80= =9D right now. If we=E2=80=99re successful and > people are still talking about it in ten years then it won=E2=80=99t be n= ew anymore > and the name will just seem absurd. > > --=20 _CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email may contain confidential and privileged= =20 material for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). Any review, use,=20 distribution or disclosure by others is strictly prohibited.=C2=A0 If you h= ave=20 received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately= =20 by e-mail and delete the message and any file attachments from your=20 computer. Thank you._ --000000000000abaf7c05a3418daf Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    The "Yet Another" from "YAAAP" do= esn't rely on it being new. It just relies on there being others.
    <= /div>
    O= n Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 12:43 PM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:

    I dislike names like =E2=80=9CNgAuth=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9CYAAP=E2=80=9D or= the like because they rely on this being =E2=80=9Cnew=E2=80=9D and it=E2= =80=99s only =E2=80=9Cnew=E2=80=9D right now. If we=E2=80=99re successful a= nd people are still talking about it in ten years then it won=E2=80=99t be = new anymore and the name will just seem absurd.=C2=A0


    <= span style=3D"margin:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;outline:0px;vertical-align:= baseline;background:transparent;font-family:proxima-nova-zendesk,system-ui,= -apple-system,BlinkMacSystemFont,"Segoe UI",Roboto,Oxygen-Sans,Ub= untu,Cantarell,"Helvetica Neue",Arial,sans-serif;font-weight:600"= >CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email may contain confidenti= al and privileged material for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). A= ny review, use, distribution or disclosure by others is strictly prohibited= .=C2=A0 If you have received this communication in error, please notify the= sender immediately by e-mail and delete the message and any file attachmen= ts from your computer. Thank you. --000000000000abaf7c05a3418daf-- From nobody Tue Apr 14 08:54:01 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: txauth@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: txauth@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 379D53A0AC6 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 2020 08:53:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=aol.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UEi2_5IBJKNJ for ; Tue, 14 Apr 2020 08:53:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sonic306-48.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (sonic306-48.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [66.163.189.110]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BC0B23A0AC8 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 2020 08:53:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=aol.com; s=a2048; t=1586879618; bh=43aI6F0EKfPnZRjExU+aScmBzEaOohKrQ9mbVjyVuVA=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From:Subject; b=Wn6ThVzFfG00JurZj0Es5l6QcYmTDFizMbRQxb3vXpfeT6NyOeAD/++NvptjYRljtJOFaSe+pqCQ1WHNKjvxDaLOgr4WJwPxOEH9d1aS4cfWDZaRA05hA+8oXQWuszq0ZiEHRRXUr45hPcBrmj2RsEwnZG8NKGZKI+G/mcZ/7fb/uUkzrpweAid9gAbDuGiK8G9zQseWPFuDaWimVXHdtJ+6Sy/oj7gPlyzHsH2ysny+cezQcviAKV79nssPc+LuUxmPRNCS9HA3SrzcgMHgiPEaXDd/YA8w7V6zKRWkxaKI7wDvHl0lsqJmqEbpiJyzs9NuaxPAZ/DUqnQJn/pzjg== X-YMail-OSG: nsNew0EVM1m.AhkljCRvb9rv1vGP2htNWO9GyV9y5A_pStGA8gSD2b7Sdoy6c_H 3RW0NYGcSkH0lC_KL6Fo3jqHcLYr8ok_Jpm44.wmVusdx8TKtruEEQgjn.qAPu8QAuH6L7St41RE ufGkJMqRsmhkurj6vwU7JfYoqTxu2Lk0BRfW4.x22LkDzguWQMnn_wSHsixuBhEyiHLEs31sHc9O KxhfaVdY93IJbPqbCXgWRvFqPILaxX9NVE54O9Emte1OUoBFwyVTwq18hZnj1BLgGApMXyPilcUx lcVO4c0ss6D1m43prUNZQeZ8UVZTwtGM8gt4yKO86Ue.UEcKZT7nVtviwAfJdl3reJz2xWrCVLuu lqJdqnwlgonynRo7Btby0q.vBATlfPLW0AaSebVi1enAfEnPle7Wvz_JHGUQ.KQnWBirOY30aBmL zBwbCw47Gc119YlhTYtnaPfufU860tdcmj_.x9yFRzKWoYzlpcqBc9WrF_HDd_KZvbmEXkl9_HVx aX553_axDXjLxcNid.J.5MQfcTKz5VYT1o.et.tLTMcHDHuXRUda3jUrTRXRKlpuyoynMDyhcRJ2 LY.BXQwy8DBvXZHw_RSlut1G420vMV8WGFY5F5VT1iqIFcSTz_3vnMjOaW5OSlCaee8BxYn8FKYa NRJ80U2EaHz..XOJL612lJWVh6Vy6JU64Mrk2P16H2rTuvm4EwQxRg4l.6of52Q0OzKYZUv1U0te MmFbGZLHIJpfwAfPbAde31.odfqQ_E1WBiETZIytfR9Ze8JvNlof34h32PaFtJnbDFt1l1ykRoZE 6wkI0_Ulj38t5nATmBLS6c3afgABz7N2NsiKu2jnIhByIf_YXyNH9o9Xh940lZttATd4OY3oQkAO 20Hu.jijbsd_iz4YgZnn99Kewj98X2C974ipvFhSb5N1xPVHfQ5cltFwfxySpgG0Em1b3sIGGkbH HNaXdbzGiv0CPvbap.vB.YUEVqysVBj_HKLiOKxogJSltYiPHSbFE3CHvYIG88DXCcx3r8tZgEvT ieIZv2i1LDHYlu9pi6NNcMtRrvhEHTrAAGgN5BFVPS4ZqGJ2XwCUITYPefkdQLFLOt7q3xfhFYFV YOYvg6oazCpWrI_v_LNUV4EzItAIQKd_GcD.VS5qz2TXGDly0M_wKkIp7fWMA86K9c2SIeBsv7nl PtlB3sIiDVs0Gtiy.SiTsWVb2ZBK_2OQ0yUeZh3K6BssMhuYqy6jsWQRnUKEj2kR0_urIjpN2pX3 TN51.rHztJ.J9.exraWLdbN7T1CliYG.VcW2Ax8.GE_FqkWB6rp3a6_uKpvm5gnGJjzb9SncgwTe LqgAOzYjCs33KUsdc9KlCW4P_S0BkURaoCRyMF24v9oTbN.RCAsIaSFnR2A_NGmjVd3gfTsLD.R3 0.I_0nLBY9_PLSzP7qwv1ZE3U4fbMrA33lt7TR7kosy.AHa.55Yyf8u1T6wg.wcASkf3fgyU1lmZ MgeDL0nAcVCk- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic306.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Tue, 14 Apr 2020 15:53:38 +0000 Received: by smtp431.mail.bf1.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID ce6c661da27d63e17fa5ae15b51e95c3; Tue, 14 Apr 2020 15:51:35 +0000 (UTC) To: Justin Richer , Mike Jones Cc: Amanjeev Sethi , Vijay IETF , Lee McGovern , "Matthew A. Miller" , "txauth@ietf.org" References: From: George Fletcher Organization: AOL LLC Message-ID: <8f135bef-bc17-a1ac-1eb3-93330a703b88@aol.com> Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 11:51:30 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------F389E10762C27C3598028C96" Content-Language: en-US X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.15651 hermes Apache-HttpAsyncClient/4.1.4 (Java/11.0.6) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Txauth] WG name: TxAuth? XAuth? Something else? X-BeenThere: txauth@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 15:53:57 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------F389E10762C27C3598028C96 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Personally I like TRADE as the words clearly identify what the protocol is about. For me, the protocol is about establishing Authorization and Delegation for use in multiple transactions over time. On 4/13/20 9:24 PM, Justin Richer wrote: > Mike, thanks for pulling up the definition. I agree we don’t want to redefine a well-used term, but I disagree that this is any attempt to redefine the well-used term here; but instead I see us applying it in a way that is consistent with the design goals of at least one of the input documents (XYZ) and I would argue with the core tenets of the solution space that we’re looking into. > > While the definition that I quoted from Dick below is the best fit, I still think that the units below are also appropriate. You begin the transaction when the client starts things off. The transaction ends when the token is issued. The token is the result of the transaction. While it’s not a perfect 1:1 mapping, since we’re talking about a multi-party protocol and not the fundamental definition here, > > And I think with all of this argument it’s important to point out that I’ve been using an adjective form the whole time: Transactional Authorization. It’s an authorization that has aspects and components and artifacts of a transaction. That doesn’t mean that this protocol is a transaction in every aspect. Nor is it, I would argue, authorization in every aspect. Just like “identity” covers many, many things, so do these terms, and I think we’re honestly hitting enough of them for it to make sense, still. > > I’m still fine with a *better* name if there is one to be had. Naming things is hard. > > For some context, these are a few of the names that Roman and I tossed around when we came up with TxAuth for the list name six months ago: > > TRAP: Transaction Authorization Protocol > > TRADE: Transaction Authorization and Delegation > > I’m not a big fan of either of those because I’m not big on cute and pronounceable acronyms, personally. I could live with “TRADE” though if there was a groundswell for it. > > — Justin > >> On Apr 13, 2020, at 7:37 PM, Mike Jones wrote: >> >> The normal computer science use of the term “transaction” involves a proposed state change that either commits or aborts atomically. That doesn’t match your description of the term below. It also doesn’t match the RFC 4949 definition of the term (which does match my paraphrase above). It reads: >> >> $ transaction >> 1. (I) A unit of interaction between an external entity and a >> system, or between components within a system, that involves a >> series of system actions or events. >> >> 2. (O) "A discrete event between user and systems that supports a >> business or programmatic purpose." [M0404 ] >> >> Tutorial: To maintain secure state, transactions need to be >> processed coherently and reliably. Usually, they need to be >> designed to be atomic, consistent, isolated, and durable [Gray ]: >> - "Atomic": All actions and events that comprise the transaction >> are guaranteed to be completed successfully, or else the result >> is as if none at all were executed. >> - "Consistent": The transaction satisfies correctness constraints >> defined for the data that is being processed. >> - "Isolated": If two transactions are performed concurrently, >> they do not interfere with each other, and it appears as though >> the system performs one at a time. >> - "Durable": System state and transaction semantics survive >> system failures. >> >> We shouldn’t try to invent a new meaning for the well-established computer science term “transaction” in this working group. >> >> -- Mike >> >> P.S. On a personal note, I really continue to miss Jim Gray. >> >> From: Justin Richer >> Sent: Monday, April 13, 2020 4:27 PM >> To: Mike Jones >> Cc: Vijay IETF ; Matthew A. Miller ; Lee McGovern ; Amanjeev Sethi ; txauth@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [Txauth] WG name: TxAuth? XAuth? Something else? >> >> On Apr 13, 2020, at 6:25 PM, Mike Jones > wrote: >> >> Because the proposed starting points and likely outcomes aren’t transactional, I believe we shouldn’t confuse people by calling it Transactional Authorization or using the abbreviation “Tx”. >> >> I’m not sure what you mean. XYZ, as a starting point, is transactional by design. I have given several talks on this topic, which you have attended. And in fact I would argue that the entire intent-registration pattern, upon which both proposals are predicated, is transactional in nature as well. As Dick was kind enough to pull the definition earlier in this thread, let me restate that definition: >> >> a communicative action or activity involving two parties or things that reciprocally affect or influence each other >> >> The entire act of getting the delegation to occur is a transaction between the client and the AS (or equivalent component). The client begins the transaction by talking to the AS, the AS continues the transaction by optionally getting the user involved, and the client continues the transaction when the interaction portion is completed, and so on. While this is intentionally built into XYZ, I would argue that even XAuth has this feature. >> >> So with that in mind, I don’t think it’s misleading or confusing at all. I’m not sure why people keep referring to it as “incorrect”. >> >> Yes, there are other definitions of “transaction” that do not apply — words have more than one definition, and that happens. >> >> Since you asked, I will gladly offer my specific thoughts on your suggestions. >> >> >> >> I haven’t heard responses to any of these brainstormed names yet: >> Disaggregated Authorization (DisAuth) >> Componentized Authorization (CompAuth) >> >> Neither of these capture what’s different about this. The components are largely the same as they were in OAuth 2, UMA, OIDC, SAML, and related protocols. The componentization isn’t the new thing here, so I don’t think these are that good a fit. >> >> >> >> Build-Your-Own Authorization (BYOAuth) >> Do-It-Yourself Authorization (DIYAuth) >> >> These aren’t really what we’re after at all. In fact, the proposed charter is specifically about building a protocol instead of a framework, so either of these are very misleading. >> >> >> >> Refactored Authorization (ReAuth or RefAuth) >> >> This doesn’t offer any description of what’s gone on here. Refactored from what? Additionally I don’t believe this name flows naturally from the proposed shortenings. “ReAuth” sounds like “ReAuthorization” and/or “ReAuthentication”, where as “RefAuth” sounds like it should stand for “reference” instead of “refactored”. >> >> >> >> >> To those I’ll now add: >> Alternative Authorization Protocol (AAP) >> Alternative Authorization (AltAuth) >> Reimagined Authorization (ReAuth) >> >> All of these are problematic for the same reason that “NewAuth” or “NgAuth” are. They just say “it’s new” and don’t say anything about it. And if we’re successful, it won’t be “new" while people are still using it. >> >> >> >> Back-end Based Authorization (BBAuth) >> >> This is a start in concept, as it starts to talk about what’s different, but “BBAuth” is already something — one of the predecessors of OAuth 1.0 was “BBAuth” from Flickr (later Yahoo). Also, note that in this historical context, the expansion is “Browser Based Auth”, which could happen here again. As one of the key aspects of what people are interested is decoupling from the browser, we don’t want to have echos of that, even if the name weren’t already historically taken. >> >> >> >> >> And for fun, there’s still: >> Dismembered Authorization >> Plus: >> ZZAuth – The Protocol >> >> Please, no. >> >> >> >> Surely others must have other good ideas than don’t use the misleading term “Transactional” or its abbreviation “Tx”. >> >> >> Again, as above, this is not misleading. That said, if there’s a better idea, I’m open to it. But for all of the reasons I keep repeating now, TxAuth is decent and I haven’t seen a better one. >> >> Thanks, >> >> — Justin >> >> >> Cheers, >> -- Mike >> >> From: Txauth > On Behalf Of Justin Richer >> Sent: Monday, April 13, 2020 11:43 AM >> To: Vijay IETF > >> Cc: Matthew A. Miller >; Lee McGovern >; Amanjeev Sethi >; txauth@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [Txauth] WG name: TxAuth? XAuth? Something else? >> >> I appreciate the brainstorming of names here. >> >> I dislike names like “NgAuth” or “YAAP” or the like because they rely on this being “new” and it’s only “new” right now. If we’re successful and people are still talking about it in ten years then it won’t be new anymore and the name will just seem absurd. >> >> While we’re at it, we really can’t use “XAuth” because it’s already been something for 30 years: the X11 authentication command: https://www.x.org/archive/X11R6.8.1/doc/xauth.1.html >> >> My project’s name “XYZ” would also be a bad name for a lasting protocol, as it’s too generic on its own. >> >> I still argue that we should call the protocol and the working group TxAuth. Not only do I think the underlying “transactional authorization” aspect is a key difference from what’s come before (the nature of which I’ve described many, many times on this list), if you go and search for the term “txauth” you end up back at this mailing list and the posts that people have made about it. >> >> — Justin >> >> >> >> On Apr 10, 2020, at 9:22 AM, Vijay IETF > wrote: >> >> Assuming we are still at it... >> >> NgAuth (Next Gen Auth). >> >> On Tue, 24 Mar 2020 at 19:00, Amanjeev Sethi > wrote: >> TOI (as in french you): TxAuth's OAuth's Improvement >> >> On Tue, Mar 24, 2020, at 4:25 AM, Lee McGovern wrote: >>> YAAP >>> >>> Yet another authX protocol >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Txauth > On Behalf Of Matthew A. Miller >>> Sent: Monday, March 23, 2020 3:06 PM >>> To: txauth@ietf.org >>> Subject: Re: [Txauth] WG name: TxAuth? XAuth? Something else? >>> >>> On 20/03/23 13:49, Brian Campbell wrote: >>>> YAAAAS - Yet Another Authorization And Authentication Specification >>>> >>> +1 >>> >>> >>> - m&m >>> >>> Matthew A. Miller >>> >>>> On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 1:39 PM Mike Jones >>>> @dmarc..ietf.org >>>> >> wrote: >>>> >>>> In brainstorming mode…____ >>>> >>>> * Disaggregated Authorization (DisAuth)____ >>>> * Componentized Authorization (CompAuth)____ >>>> * Build-Your-Own Authorization (BYOAuth)____ >>>> * Do-It-Yourself Authorization (DIYAuth)____ >>>> * Refactored Authorization (ReAuth or RefAuth)____ >>>> >>>> __ __ >>>> >>>> And for fun…____ >>>> >>>> * Dismembered Authorization____ >>>> >>>> __ __ >>>> >>>> -- Mike____ >>>> >>>> __ __ >>>> >>>> *From:* Txauth >>>> >> *On Behalf Of *David Skaife >>>> *Sent:* Saturday, March 21, 2020 11:22 AM >>>> *To:* Justin Richer >> >>>> *Cc:* Yaron Sheffer >>>> >>; txauth@ietf.org >>>> >; Dick Hardt >>>> >> >>>> *Subject:* Re: [Txauth] WG name: TxAuth? XAuth? Something >>>> else?____ >>>> >>>> __ __ >>>> >>>> I think we're saying the same thing with regards to the working >>>> group name - I was saying it *isn't* particularly important in >>>> comparison to the name of the protocol (which obviously is very >>>> important).____ >>>> >>>> __ __ >>>> >>>> On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 6:18 PM Justin Richer >>>> >> wrote:____ >>>> >>>> I disagree on the working group name being super important. >>>> Nobody knows that the OAuth WG is actually named “The Web >>>> Authorization Protocol Working Group”, and nobody cares.____ >>>> >>>> __ __ >>>> >>>> My proposal is that we name the protocol we work on “TxAuth” >>>> (and keep the mailing list), and that we name the working group >>>> something like “Next Generation Web Authorization Protocol” to >>>> say what we’re doing.____ >>>> >>>> __ __ >>>> >>>> -- Justin____ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ____ >>>> >>>> On Mar 21, 2020, at 2:08 PM, David Skaife >>>> >>>> >> wrote:____ >>>> >>>> __ __ >>>> >>>> Just to throw in another suggestion, to address Yaron's >>>> point about some people mistakenly thinking that "Auth" >>>> stands for authentication rather than authorization, how >>>> about naming the working group *AuthZ*____ >>>> >>>> Nice and simple, and it makes it clear what the group is >>>> focused on. >>>> >>>> I think the name of the actual protocol that we produce is >>>> far, far more important that the name of the working group - >>>> and the name of that protocol doesn't need to correlate to >>>> the WG name. Also, we have much more time before we need to >>>> decide on the name of that protocol, even if the >>>> initial draft documents that we produce end up using a >>>> placeholder name.____ >>>> >>>> __ __ >>>> >>>> On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 5:44 PM Justin Richer >>>> >> wrote:____ >>>> >>>> As you can see in the email you replied to, that is not >>>> even close to what I said. I believe it is a >>>> transaction, and therefore, I do not agree that it’s not >>>> a transaction.____ >>>> >>>> __ __ >>>> >>>> But if we take “Transactional” out of the WG title, I >>>> won’t be offended. If we just call it “TxAuth” without >>>> expansion, then that’s fine.____ >>>> >>>> __ __ >>>> >>>> I do not like calling it “XAuth”. The term “TAuth" was >>>> floated during naming the list, but rejected because >>>> (among other reasons) it would likely be awkwardly >>>> pronounced as “towth” or something. TxAuth reads as “Tee >>>> - ex - oth” more naturally, which was the intent. ____ >>>> >>>> __ __ >>>> >>>> So how about we take a page from the OAuth working group >>>> and name it:____ >>>> >>>> __ __ >>>> >>>> TxAuth - Next Generation Web Authorization Protocol >>>> Working Group____ >>>> >>>> __ __ >>>> >>>> __ __ >>>> >>>> — Justin____ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ____ >>>> >>>> On Mar 21, 2020, at 1:15 PM, Dick Hardt >>>> >> >>>> wrote:____ >>>> >>>> __ __ >>>> >>>> To clarify -- you agree it is not a transaction, and >>>> we will take the word transaction out of the WG >>>> title?____ >>>> >>>> __ __ >>>> >>>> On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 5:53 PM Justin Richer >>>> >> >>>> wrote:____ >>>> >>>> Dick, thanks for pulling the definitions >>>> up:____ >>>> >>>> __ __ >>>> >>>> > a communicative action or activity involving >>>> two parties or things that reciprocally affect >>>> or influence each other____ >>>> >>>> __ __ >>>> >>>> This is the kind of thing that I had in mind. >>>> The client and the AS are in a conversation over >>>> time that each one contributes to and each >>>> changes. ____ >>>> >>>> __ __ >>>> >>>> Also — we can just as easily decide that >>>> “TxAuth” doesn’t stand for “Transactional Auth” >>>> much the same way we decided that the “O” in >>>> “OAuth” doesn’t stand for “Open” anymore. ____ >>>> >>>> __ __ >>>> >>>> None of the arguments below in favor of XAuth >>>> have made me like that name better. If it’s just >>>> a “placeholder” name, then why come up with >>>> something new?____ >>>> >>>> __ __ >>>> >>>> — Justin____ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ____ >>>> >>>> On Mar 20, 2020, at 3:32 PM, Dick Hardt >>>> >>>> >> wrote:____ >>>> >>>> __ __ >>>> >>>> __ __ >>>> >>>> __ __ >>>> >>>> __ __ >>>> >>>> not a transaction - there are multiple >>>> transactions____ >>>> >>>> __ __ >>>> >>>> backchannel innovation is combination of >>>> here is who I am, and here is what I want to >>>> do____ >>>> >>>> __ __ >>>> >>>> __ __ >>>> >>>> childhood trauma therapy group____ >>>> >>>> __ __ >>>> >>>> __ __ >>>> >>>> __ __ >>>> >>>> On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 6:56 PM Justin >>>> Richer >>>> >> wrote:____ >>>> >>>> Yes, naming things is hard — but I still >>>> believe in the name TxAuth. We’re moving >>>> beyond OAuth, and taking the process of >>>> getting an authorization delegated to >>>> the client software as a multi-step, >>>> multi-party transaction is, I believe, >>>> the key insight that’s letting us move >>>> beyond OAuth’s limitations here. It’s >>>> not just about going to the AS first — >>>> we had that in OAuth 1 and we’re >>>> patching that into OAuth 2 with PAR.. I >>>> really think it’s about the transaction >>>> at the core.. ____ >>>> >>>> __ __ >>>> >>>> OAuth 2.0 had multi-step, multi-party. >>>> TxAuth extends that.____ >>>> >>>> __ __ >>>> >>>> I think the big shift is going to the AS. >>>> This enables the request to be richer with >>>> JSON, instead of name/value pairs parameters >>>> in a URI. It allows the client and AS to >>>> negotiate, and to short circuit having to >>>> redirect the user to the AS. PAR does some >>>> of this, but it is constrained by having to >>>> do it in the OAuth 2.0 context.____ >>>> >>>> __ __ >>>> >>>> My concern is that the protocol is MUCH MORE >>>> than a transaction. While the initial >>>> interaction between client, AS, user and RO >>>> is a transaction. The protocol also covers >>>> the client and RS interactions. The access >>>> token refreshes. Access token revocation. >>>> Access token introspection. As described in >>>> the charter, there is a whole lifecycle, >>>> that consists of multiple >>>> transactions.____ >>>> >>>> __ __ >>>> >>>> From >>>> https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transaction:____ >>>> >>>> __ __ >>>> >>>> >>>> Definition of /transaction/____ >>>> >>>> *1a**: *something transacted >>>> >/especially/ *: *an >>>> exchange or transfer >>>> > of >>>> goods, services, or >>>> fundselectronic /transactions/____ >>>> >>>> *b: transactions*/ plural/ *: *the often >>>> published record of the meeting of a society >>>> or association____ >>>> >>>> *2a**: *an act, process, or instance >>>> of transacting >>>> >>>> >____ >>>> >>>> *b**: *a communicative action or activity >>>> involving two parties or things that >>>> reciprocally affect or influence each >>>> other____ >>>> >>>> __ __ >>>> >>>> Calling the protocol a transaction will >>>> confusing to people.____ >>>> >>>> ____ >>>> >>>> __ __ >>>> >>>> Having come of age in the 1990’s, I have >>>> particular dislike for XAuth. It sounds >>>> too “X-TREME” and “X-CITING”, and if you >>>> read either of those with a growling >>>> yell in your head then you know exactly >>>> what I’m talking about.____ >>>> >>>> __ __ >>>> >>>> In case you are confused, this is not a >>>> childhood trauma support group. :)____ >>>> >>>> __ __ >>>> >>>> Unlike "X-TREME" or "X-CITING", XAuth is >>>> using the "X" as a placeholder. X-Men, Xbox, >>>> X-Factor, X-files. ____ >>>> >>>> __ __ >>>> >>>> >>>> https://www.businessinsider.com/the-indisputable-power-of-brand-x-2012 >>>> -4____ >>>> >>>> __ __ >>>> >>>> >>>> https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/358181/whats-the-purpose-o >>>> f-using-letter-x-or-x-as-a-suffix-in-brand-names____ >>>> >>>> __ __ >>>> >>>> ____ >>>> >>>> And to Dick’s rationale for the name >>>> below, I absolutely do NOT see this work >>>> as “OAuth with all the extra features”. >>>> I think that does a disservice to the >>>> kind of change we have an opportunity to >>>> make here. ____ >>>> >>>> __ __ >>>> >>>> From the charter ____ >>>> >>>> __ __ >>>> >>>> "It will expand upon the uses cases >>>> currently supported by OAuth 2.0 and >>>> OpenID Connect (itself an extension of >>>> OAuth 2.0)"____ >>>> >>>> __ __ >>>> >>>> Which sounds pretty similar to “OAuth with >>>> all the extra features”____ >>>> >>>> __ __ >>>> >>>> While I think XAuth captures what we are >>>> doing, a placeholder name would be >>>> preferable to an incorrect descriptive name >>>> such as TxAuth.____ >>>> >>>> __ __ >>>> >>>> For example, XYZ is a good placeholder name. >>>> Or XYZAuth. Let's not mislead people.____ >>>> >>>> ____ >>>> >>>> __ __ >>>> >>>> — Justin____ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ____ >>>> >>>> On Mar 16, 2020, at 7:04 PM, Dick >>>> Hardt >>>> >> >>>> wrote:____ >>>> >>>> __ __ >>>> >>>> Hello everyone____ >>>> >>>> __ __ >>>> >>>> I prompted a thread around the name >>>> of the protocol a while back:____ >>>> >>>> __ __ >>>> >>>> >>>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/txauth/ZVQVbHt4ADqehKrBDXOrTr_s_ >>>> wc/____ >>>> >>>> __ __ >>>> >>>> As Justin stated "naming is >>>> hard"____ >>>> >>>> __ __ >>>> >>>> Wearing my marketing hat I want to >>>> ensure that the name will be >>>> perceived properly in the broader >>>> community.____ >>>> >>>> __ __ >>>> >>>> A recent example that comes to mind >>>> are the privacy related works on the >>>> browser storage API. Given that >>>> name, one would think that it is >>>> local storage. It is actually about >>>> browser cookies.____ >>>> >>>> __ __ >>>> >>>> Justin discussed his reasons for >>>> TxAuth in the thread above (and I'm >>>> sure in other places)____ >>>> >>>> __ __ >>>> >>>> I chose XAuth in my draft to reflect >>>> the eXtensibility goal that we have >>>> over OAuth -- and XAuth is OAuth but >>>> with an X to reflect all the extra >>>> features. =)____ >>>> >>>> __ __ >>>> >>>> Other suggestions?____ >>>> >>>> __ __ >>>> >>>> This will be an agenda item in the >>>> BoF -- but the name will NOT be an >>>> open discussion item -- we will >>>> summarize what has been discussed on >>>> the list and perhaps do a poll of >>>> options presented unless consensus >>>> is obvious from this thread.____ >>>> >>>> __ __ >>>> >>>> /Dick____ >>>> >>>> __ __ >>>> >>>> __ __ >>>> >>>> __ __ >>>> >>>> __ __ >>>> >>>> __ __ >>>> >>>> ᐧ____ >>>> >>>> __ __ >>>> >>>> __ __ >>>> >>>> __ __ >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Txauth mailing list >>>> Txauth@ietf.org > >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth____ >>>> >>>> __ __ >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Txauth mailing list >>>> Txauth@ietf.org > >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >Ping Identity > >>>> Brian Campbell >>>> Distinguished Engineer >>>> bcampbell@pingidentity.com > >>>> w: +1 720.317.2061 >>>> c: +1 303.918..9415 >>>> >>>> Connect with us: Glassdoor logo >>>> >>>> 07.11,24.htm> LinkedIn logo > >>>> twitter logo >>>> > facebook logo >>>> > youtube logo >>>> > Blog logo >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>>> /ping-6-2-assets/Assets/faqs/en/consumer-attitudes-post-breach-era-337 >>>> 5.pdf?id%3Db6322a80-f285-11e3-ac10-0800200c9a66&source=gmail&ust=15416 >>>> 93608526000&usg=AFQjCNGBl5cPHCUAVKGZ_NnpuFj5PHGSUQ> >>>> entity.com/en/events/d/identify-2019.html > >>>> m/content/dam/ping-6-2-assets/Assets/Misc/en/3464-consumersurvey-execs >>>> ummary.pdf>>>>> /www.pingidentity.com/en/events/e/rsa.html > >>>> om/en/lp/e/enabling-work-from-home-with-MFA.html> >>>> >>>> /If you’re not a current customer, click here >>>> >>>> source=Email&utm_campaign=WF-COVID19-New-EMSIG> for a more relevant >>>> offer./ >>>> >>>> /CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email may contain confidential and >>>> privileged material for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). Any >>>> review, use, distribution or disclosure by others is strictly >>>> prohibited.. If you have received this communication in error, please >>>> notify the sender immediately by e-mail and delete the message and any >>>> file attachments from your computer. Thank you./ >>>> >>> -- >>> Txauth mailing list >>> Txauth@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth >>> >>> >>> This e-mail, including attachments, is intended for the person(s) or >>> company named and may contain confidential and/or legally privileged >>> information. >>> >>> Unauthorized disclosure, copying or use of this information may be >>> unlawful and is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, >>> please delete this message and notify the sender. >>> All incoming and outgoing e-mail messages are stored in the Swiss Re >>> Electronic Message Repository. >>> If you do not wish the retention of potentially private e-mails by >>> Swiss Re, we strongly advise you not to use the Swiss Re e-mail account >>> for any private, non-business related communications. >>> -- >>> Txauth mailing list >>> Txauth@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth >>> >> -- >> Txauth mailing list >> Txauth@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth >> -- >> Txauth mailing list >> Txauth@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth > --------------F389E10762C27C3598028C96 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Personally I like TRADE as the words clearly identify what the protocol is about. For me, the protocol is about establishing Authorization and Delegation for use in multiple transactions over time.

    On 4/13/20 9:24 PM, Justin Richer wrote:
    Mike, thanks for pulling up the definition. I agree we don’t want to redefine a well-used term, but I disagree that this is any attempt to redefine the well-used term here; but instead I see us applying it in a way that is consistent with the design goals of at least one of the input documents (XYZ) and I would argue with the core tenets of the solution space that we’re looking into. 

While the definition that I quoted from Dick below is the best fit, I still think that the units below are also appropriate. You begin the transaction when the client starts things off. The transaction ends when the token is issued. The token is the result of the transaction. While it’s not a perfect 1:1 mapping, since we’re talking about a multi-party protocol and not the fundamental definition here, 

And I think with all of this argument it’s important to point out that I’ve been using an adjective form the whole time: Transactional Authorization. It’s an authorization that has aspects and components and artifacts of a transaction. That doesn’t mean that this protocol is a transaction in every aspect. Nor is it, I would argue, authorization in every aspect. Just like “identity” covers many, many things, so do these terms, and I think we’re honestly hitting enough of them for it to make sense, still.

I’m still fine with a *better* name if there is one to be had. Naming things is hard.

For some context, these are a few of the names that Roman and I tossed around when we came up with TxAuth for the list name six months ago:

	TRAP: Transaction Authorization Protocol

	TRADE: Transaction Authorization and Delegation

I’m not a big fan of either of those because I’m not big on cute and pronounceable acronyms, personally. I could live with “TRADE” though if there was a groundswell for it.

 — Justin


    On Apr 13, 2020, at 7:37 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> wrote:

The normal computer science use of the term “transaction” involves a proposed state change that either commits or aborts atomically.  That doesn’t match your description of the term below.  It also doesn’t match the RFC 4949 <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4949> definition of the term (which does match my paraphrase above).  It reads:
 
   $ transaction
      1. (I) A unit of interaction between an external entity and a
      system, or between components within a system, that involves a
      series of system actions or events.
 
      2. (O) "A discrete event between user and systems that supports a
      business or programmatic purpose." [M0404 <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4949#ref-M0404>]
 
      Tutorial: To maintain secure state, transactions need to be
      processed coherently and reliably. Usually, they need to be
      designed to be atomic, consistent, isolated, and durable [Gray <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4949#ref-Gray>]:
      -  "Atomic": All actions and events that comprise the transaction
         are guaranteed to be completed successfully, or else the result
         is as if none at all were executed.
      -  "Consistent": The transaction satisfies correctness constraints
         defined for the data that is being processed.
      -  "Isolated": If two transactions are performed concurrently,
         they do not interfere with each other, and it appears as though
         the system performs one at a time.
      -  "Durable": System state and transaction semantics survive
         system failures.
 
We shouldn’t try to invent a new meaning for the well-established computer science term “transaction” in this working group.
 
                                                       -- Mike
 
P.S.  On a personal note, I really continue to miss Jim Gray.
 
From: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> 
Sent: Monday, April 13, 2020 4:27 PM
To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
Cc: Vijay IETF <vijay.ietf@gmail.com>; Matthew A. Miller <linuxwolf+ietf@outer-planes.net>; Lee McGovern <Lee_McGovern@swissre.com>; Amanjeev Sethi <aj@amanjeev.com>; txauth@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Txauth] WG name: TxAuth? XAuth? Something else?
 
On Apr 13, 2020, at 6:25 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com <mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>> wrote:
 
Because the proposed starting points and likely outcomes aren’t transactional, I believe we shouldn’t confuse people by calling it Transactional Authorization or using the abbreviation “Tx”.
 
I’m not sure what you mean. XYZ, as a starting point, is transactional by design. I have given several talks on this topic, which you have attended. And in fact I would argue that the entire intent-registration pattern, upon which both proposals are predicated, is transactional in nature as well. As Dick was kind enough to pull the definition earlier in this thread, let me restate that definition:
 
              a communicative action or activity involving two parties or things that reciprocally affect or influence each other
 
The entire act of getting the delegation to occur is a transaction between the client and the AS (or equivalent component). The client begins the transaction by talking to the AS, the AS continues the transaction by optionally getting the user involved, and the client continues the transaction when the interaction portion is completed, and so on. While this is intentionally built into XYZ, I would argue that even XAuth has this feature.
 
So with that in mind, I don’t think it’s misleading or confusing at all. I’m not sure why people keep referring to it as “incorrect”. 
 
Yes, there are other definitions of “transaction” that do not apply — words have more than one definition, and that happens.
 
Since you asked, I will gladly offer my specific thoughts on your suggestions.


 
I haven’t heard responses to any of these brainstormed names yet:
Disaggregated Authorization (DisAuth)
Componentized Authorization (CompAuth)
 
Neither of these capture what’s different about this. The components are largely the same as they were in OAuth 2, UMA, OIDC, SAML, and related protocols. The componentization isn’t the new thing here, so I don’t think these are that good a fit.


 
Build-Your-Own Authorization (BYOAuth)
Do-It-Yourself Authorization (DIYAuth)
 
These aren’t really what we’re after at all. In fact, the proposed charter is specifically about building a protocol instead of a framework, so either of these are very misleading.


 
Refactored Authorization (ReAuth or RefAuth)
 
This doesn’t offer any description of what’s gone on here. Refactored from what? Additionally  I don’t believe this name flows naturally from the proposed shortenings.  “ReAuth” sounds like “ReAuthorization” and/or “ReAuthentication”, where as “RefAuth” sounds like it should stand for “reference” instead of “refactored”.


 
 
To those I’ll now add:
Alternative Authorization Protocol (AAP)
Alternative Authorization (AltAuth)
Reimagined Authorization (ReAuth)
 
All of these are problematic for the same reason that “NewAuth” or “NgAuth” are. They just say “it’s new” and don’t say anything about it. And if we’re successful, it won’t be “new" while people are still using it.


 
Back-end Based Authorization (BBAuth)
 
This is a start in concept, as it starts to talk about what’s different, but “BBAuth” is already something — one of the predecessors of OAuth 1.0 was “BBAuth” from Flickr (later Yahoo). Also, note that in this historical context, the expansion is “Browser Based Auth”, which could happen here again. As one of the key aspects of what people are interested is decoupling from the browser, we don’t want to have echos of that, even if the name weren’t already historically taken.


 
 
And for fun, there’s still:
Dismembered Authorization
Plus:
ZZAuth – The Protocol
 
Please, no.


 
Surely others must have other good ideas than don’t use the misleading term “Transactional” or its abbreviation “Tx”.
 
 
Again, as above, this is not misleading. That said, if there’s a better idea, I’m open to it. But for all of the reasons I keep repeating now, TxAuth is decent and I haven’t seen a better one.
 
Thanks,
 
 — Justin


                                                       Cheers,
                                                       -- Mike
 
From: Txauth <txauth-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:txauth-bounces@ietf.org>> On Behalf Of Justin Richer
Sent: Monday, April 13, 2020 11:43 AM
To: Vijay IETF <vijay.ietf@gmail.com <mailto:vijay.ietf@gmail.com>>
Cc: Matthew A. Miller <linuxwolf+ietf@outer-planes.net <mailto:linuxwolf+ietf@outer-planes.net>>; Lee McGovern <Lee_McGovern@swissre.com <mailto:Lee_McGovern@swissre.com>>; Amanjeev Sethi <aj@amanjeev.com <mailto:aj@amanjeev.com>>; txauth@ietf.org <mailto:txauth@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Txauth] WG name: TxAuth? XAuth? Something else?
 
I appreciate the brainstorming of names here. 
 
I dislike names like “NgAuth” or “YAAP” or the like because they rely on this being “new” and it’s only “new” right now. If we’re successful and people are still talking about it in ten years then it won’t be new anymore and the name will just seem absurd. 
 
While we’re at it, we really can’t use “XAuth” because it’s already been something for 30 years: the X11 authentication command: https://www.x.org/archive/X11R6.8.1/doc/xauth.1.html <https://www.x.org/archive/X11R6.8.1/doc/xauth.1.html>
 
My project’s name “XYZ” would also be a bad name for a lasting protocol, as it’s too generic on its own. 
 
I still argue that we should call the protocol and the working group TxAuth. Not only do I think the underlying “transactional authorization” aspect is a key difference from what’s come before (the nature of which I’ve described many, many times on this list), if you go and search for the term “txauth” you end up back at this mailing list and the posts that people have made about it. 
 
 — Justin



On Apr 10, 2020, at 9:22 AM, Vijay IETF <vijay.ietf@gmail.com <mailto:vijay.ietf@gmail.com>> wrote:
 
Assuming we are still at it...
 
NgAuth (Next Gen Auth).
 
On Tue, 24 Mar 2020 at 19:00, Amanjeev Sethi <aj@amanjeev.com <mailto:aj@amanjeev.com>> wrote:
TOI (as in french you): TxAuth's OAuth's Improvement

On Tue, Mar 24, 2020, at 4:25 AM, Lee McGovern wrote:

    YAAP 

Yet another authX protocol


-----Original Message-----
From: Txauth <txauth-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:txauth-bounces@ietf.org>> On Behalf Of Matthew A. Miller
Sent: Monday, March 23, 2020 3:06 PM
To: txauth@ietf.org <mailto:txauth@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Txauth] WG name: TxAuth? XAuth? Something else?

On 20/03/23 13:49, Brian Campbell wrote:

    YAAAAS - Yet Another Authorization And Authentication Specification


    +1


- m&m

Matthew A. Miller


    On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 1:39 PM Mike Jones 
<Michael.Jones=40microsoft.com <http://40microsoft.com/>@dmarc..ietf.org <http://ietf.org/>
<mailto:40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org <mailto:40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org>>> wrote:

    In brainstorming mode…____

      * Disaggregated Authorization (DisAuth)____
      * Componentized Authorization (CompAuth)____
      * Build-Your-Own Authorization (BYOAuth)____
      * Do-It-Yourself Authorization (DIYAuth)____
      * Refactored Authorization (ReAuth or RefAuth)____

    __ __

    And for fun…____

      * Dismembered Authorization____

    __ __

                                                           -- Mike____

    __ __

    *From:* Txauth <txauth-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:txauth-bounces@ietf.org>
    <mailto:txauth-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:txauth-bounces@ietf.org>>> *On Behalf Of *David Skaife
    *Sent:* Saturday, March 21, 2020 11:22 AM
    *To:* Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu <mailto:jricher@mit.edu> <mailto:jricher@mit.edu <mailto:jricher@mit.edu>>>
    *Cc:* Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com <mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>
    <mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com <mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>>>; txauth@ietf.org <mailto:txauth@ietf.org>
    <mailto:txauth@ietf.org <mailto:txauth@ietf.org>>; Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>
    <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>>>
    *Subject:* Re: [Txauth] WG name: TxAuth? XAuth? Something 
else?____

    __ __

    I think we're saying the same thing with regards to the working
    group name - I was saying it *isn't* particularly important in
    comparison to the name of the protocol (which obviously is very
    important).____

    __ __

    On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 6:18 PM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu <mailto:jricher@mit.edu>
    <mailto:jricher@mit.edu <mailto:jricher@mit.edu>>> wrote:____

        I disagree on the working group name being super important.
        Nobody knows that the OAuth WG is actually named “The Web
        Authorization Protocol Working Group”, and nobody cares.____

        __ __

        My proposal is that we name the protocol we work on “TxAuth”
        (and keep the mailing list), and that we name the working group
        something like “Next Generation Web Authorization Protocol” to
        say what we’re doing.____

        __ __

         -- Justin____



        ____

            On Mar 21, 2020, at 2:08 PM, David Skaife
            <blue.ringed.octopus.guy@gmail.com <mailto:blue.ringed.octopus.guy@gmail.com>
            <mailto:blue.ringed.octopus.guy@gmail.com <mailto:blue.ringed.octopus.guy@gmail.com>>> wrote:____

            __ __

            Just to throw in another suggestion, to address Yaron's
            point about some people mistakenly thinking that "Auth"
            stands for authentication rather than authorization, how
            about naming the working group *AuthZ*____

            Nice and simple, and it makes it clear what the group is
            focused on.

            I think the name of the actual protocol that we produce is
            far, far more important that the name of the working group -
            and the name of that protocol doesn't need to correlate to
            the WG name. Also, we have much more time before we need to
            decide on the name of that protocol, even if the
            initial draft documents that we produce end up using a
            placeholder name.____

            __ __

            On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 5:44 PM Justin Richer
            <jricher@mit.edu <mailto:jricher@mit.edu> <mailto:jricher@mit.edu <mailto:jricher@mit.edu>>> wrote:____

                As you can see in the email you replied to, that is not
                even close to what I said. I believe it is a
                transaction, and therefore, I do not agree that it’s not
                a transaction.____

                __ __

                But if we take “Transactional” out of the WG title, I
                won’t be offended. If we just call it “TxAuth” without
                expansion, then that’s fine.____

                __ __

                I do not like calling it “XAuth”. The term “TAuth" was
                floated during naming the list, but rejected because
                (among other reasons) it would likely be awkwardly
                pronounced as “towth” or something. TxAuth reads as “Tee
                - ex - oth” more naturally, which was the intent. ____

                __ __

                So how about we take a page from the OAuth working group
                and name it:____

                __ __

                TxAuth - Next Generation Web Authorization Protocol
                Working Group____

                __ __

                __ __

                 — Justin____



                ____

                    On Mar 21, 2020, at 1:15 PM, Dick Hardt
                    <dick.hardt@gmail.com <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com> <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>>>
                    wrote:____

                    __ __

                    To clarify -- you agree it is not a transaction, and
                    we will take the word transaction out of the WG
                    title?____

                    __ __

                    On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 5:53 PM Justin Richer
                    <jricher@mit.edu <mailto:jricher@mit.edu> <mailto:jricher@mit.edu <mailto:jricher@mit.edu>>> 
wrote:____

                        Dick, thanks for pulling the definitions 
up:____

                        __ __

                        > a communicative action or activity involving
                        two parties or things that reciprocally affect
                        or influence each other____

                        __ __

                        This is the kind of thing that I had in mind.
                        The client and the AS are in a conversation over
                        time that each one contributes to and each
                        changes. ____

                        __ __

                        Also — we can just as easily decide that
                        “TxAuth” doesn’t stand for “Transactional Auth”
                        much the same way we decided that the “O” in
                        “OAuth” doesn’t stand for “Open” anymore. ____

                        __ __

                        None of the arguments below in favor of XAuth
                        have made me like that name better. If it’s just
                        a “placeholder” name, then why come up with
                        something new?____

                        __ __

                         — Justin____



                        ____

                            On Mar 20, 2020, at 3:32 PM, Dick Hardt
                            <dick.hardt@gmail.com <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>
                            <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>>> wrote:____

                            __ __

                            __ __

                            __ __

                            __ __

                            not a transaction - there are multiple
                            transactions____

                            __ __

                            backchannel innovation is combination of
                            here is who I am, and here is what I want to
                            do____

                            __ __

                            __ __

                            childhood trauma therapy group____

                            __ __

                            __ __

                            __ __

                            On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 6:56 PM Justin
                            Richer <jricher@mit.edu <mailto:jricher@mit.edu>
                            <mailto:jricher@mit.edu <mailto:jricher@mit.edu>>> wrote:____

                                Yes, naming things is hard — but I still
                                believe in the name TxAuth. We’re moving
                                beyond OAuth, and taking the process of
                                getting an authorization delegated to
                                the client software as a multi-step,
                                multi-party transaction is, I believe,
                                the key insight that’s letting us move
                                beyond OAuth’s limitations here. It’s
                                not just about going to the AS first —
                                we had that in OAuth 1 and we’re
                                patching that into OAuth 2 with PAR.. I
                                really think it’s about the transaction
                                at the core.. ____

                            __ __

                            OAuth 2.0 had multi-step, multi-party.
                            TxAuth extends that.____

                            __ __

                            I think the big shift is going to the AS.
                            This enables the request to be richer with
                            JSON, instead of name/value pairs parameters
                            in a URI. It allows the client and AS to
                            negotiate, and to short circuit having to
                            redirect the user to the AS. PAR does some
                            of this, but it is constrained by having to
                            do it in the OAuth 2.0 context.____

                            __ __

                            My concern is that the protocol is MUCH MORE
                            than a transaction. While the initial
                            interaction between client, AS, user and RO
                            is a transaction. The protocol also covers
                            the client and RS interactions. The access
                            token refreshes. Access token revocation.
                            Access token introspection. As described in
                            the charter, there is a whole lifecycle,
                            that consists of multiple 
transactions.____

                            __ __

                            From
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transaction:____ <https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transaction:____>

                            __ __


                                Definition of /transaction/____

                            *1a**: *something transacted
                            <https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transacted <https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transacted>>/especially/ *: *an
                            exchange or transfer
                            <https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transfer <https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transfer>> of
                            goods, services, or
                            fundselectronic /transactions/____

                            *b: transactions*/ plural/ *: *the often
                            published record of the meeting of a society
                            or association____

                            *2a**: *an act, process, or instance
                            of transacting
                            
<https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transacting <https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transacting>>____

                            *b**: *a communicative action or activity
                            involving two parties or things that
                            reciprocally affect or influence each 
other____

                            __ __

                            Calling the protocol a transaction will
                            confusing to people.____

                             ____

                                __ __

                                Having come of age in the 1990’s, I have
                                particular dislike for XAuth. It sounds
                                too “X-TREME” and “X-CITING”, and if you
                                read either of those with a growling
                                yell in your head then you know exactly
                                what I’m talking about.____

                            __ __

                            In case you are confused, this is not a
                            childhood trauma support group.  :)____

                            __ __

                            Unlike "X-TREME" or "X-CITING", XAuth is
                            using the "X" as a placeholder. X-Men, Xbox,
                            X-Factor, X-files. ____

                            __ __

                            
https://www.businessinsider.com/the-indisputable-power-of-brand-x-2012 <https://www.businessinsider.com/the-indisputable-power-of-brand-x-2012>
-4____

                            __ __

                            
https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/358181/whats-the-purpose-o <https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/358181/whats-the-purpose-o>
f-using-letter-x-or-x-as-a-suffix-in-brand-names____

                            __ __

                             ____

                                And to Dick’s rationale for the name
                                below, I absolutely do NOT see this work
                                as “OAuth with all the extra features”.
                                I think that does a disservice to the
                                kind of change we have an opportunity to
                                make here. ____

                            __ __

                            From the charter ____

                            __ __

                                "It will expand upon the uses cases
                                currently supported by OAuth 2.0 and
                                OpenID Connect (itself an extension of
                                OAuth 2.0)"____

                            __ __

                            Which sounds pretty similar to “OAuth with
                            all the extra features”____

                            __ __

                            While I think XAuth captures what we are
                            doing, a placeholder name would be
                            preferable to an incorrect descriptive name
                            such as TxAuth.____

                            __ __

                            For example, XYZ is a good placeholder name.
                            Or XYZAuth. Let's not mislead people.____

                             ____

                                __ __

                                 — Justin____



                                ____

                                    On Mar 16, 2020, at 7:04 PM, Dick
                                    Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>
                                    <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>>>
                                    wrote:____

                                    __ __

                                    Hello everyone____

                                    __ __

                                    I prompted a thread around the name
                                    of the protocol a while back:____

                                    __ __

                                    
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/txauth/ZVQVbHt4ADqehKrBDXOrTr_s_ <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/txauth/ZVQVbHt4ADqehKrBDXOrTr_s_>
wc/____

                                    __ __

                                    As Justin stated "naming is 
hard"____

                                    __ __

                                    Wearing my marketing hat I want to
                                    ensure that the name will be
                                    perceived properly in the broader
                                    community.____

                                    __ __

                                    A recent example that comes to mind
                                    are the privacy related works on the
                                    browser storage API. Given that
                                    name, one would think that it is
                                    local storage. It is actually about
                                    browser cookies.____

                                    __ __

                                    Justin discussed his reasons for
                                    TxAuth in the thread above (and I'm
                                    sure in other places)____

                                    __ __

                                    I chose XAuth in my draft to reflect
                                    the eXtensibility goal that we have
                                    over OAuth -- and XAuth is OAuth but
                                    with an X to reflect all the extra
                                    features. =)____

                                    __ __

                                    Other suggestions?____

                                    __ __

                                    This will be an agenda item in the
                                    BoF -- but the name will NOT be an
                                    open discussion item -- we will
                                    summarize what has been discussed on
                                    the list and perhaps do a poll of
                                    options presented unless consensus
                                    is obvious from this thread.____

                                    __ __

                                    /Dick____

                                    __ __

                                    __ __

                                    __ __

                                    __ __

                                    __ __

                                    ᐧ____

                                __ __

                        __ __

                __ __

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To: Justin Richer , Mike Jones 
Cc: Amanjeev Sethi , Vijay IETF , Lee McGovern , "Matthew A. Miller" , "txauth@ietf.org" 
References:  
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Subject: Re: [Txauth] WG name: TxAuth? XAuth? Something else?
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Personally I like TRADE as the words clearly identify what the protocol 
is about. For me, the protocol is about establishing Authorization and 
Delegation for use in multiple transactions over time.

On 4/13/20 9:24 PM, Justin Richer wrote:
> Mike, thanks for pulling up the definition. I agree we don’t want to redefine a well-used term, but I disagree that this is any attempt to redefine the well-used term here; but instead I see us applying it in a way that is consistent with the design goals of at least one of the input documents (XYZ) and I would argue with the core tenets of the solution space that we’re looking into.
>
> While the definition that I quoted from Dick below is the best fit, I still think that the units below are also appropriate. You begin the transaction when the client starts things off. The transaction ends when the token is issued. The token is the result of the transaction. While it’s not a perfect 1:1 mapping, since we’re talking about a multi-party protocol and not the fundamental definition here,
>
> And I think with all of this argument it’s important to point out that I’ve been using an adjective form the whole time: Transactional Authorization. It’s an authorization that has aspects and components and artifacts of a transaction. That doesn’t mean that this protocol is a transaction in every aspect. Nor is it, I would argue, authorization in every aspect. Just like “identity” covers many, many things, so do these terms, and I think we’re honestly hitting enough of them for it to make sense, still.
>
> I’m still fine with a *better* name if there is one to be had. Naming things is hard.
>
> For some context, these are a few of the names that Roman and I tossed around when we came up with TxAuth for the list name six months ago:
>
> 	TRAP: Transaction Authorization Protocol
>
> 	TRADE: Transaction Authorization and Delegation
>
> I’m not a big fan of either of those because I’m not big on cute and pronounceable acronyms, personally. I could live with “TRADE” though if there was a groundswell for it.
>
>   — Justin
>
>> On Apr 13, 2020, at 7:37 PM, Mike Jones  wrote:
>>
>> The normal computer science use of the term “transaction” involves a proposed state change that either commits or aborts atomically.  That doesn’t match your description of the term below.  It also doesn’t match the RFC 4949  definition of the term (which does match my paraphrase above).  It reads:
>>   
>>     $ transaction
>>        1. (I) A unit of interaction between an external entity and a
>>        system, or between components within a system, that involves a
>>        series of system actions or events.
>>   
>>        2. (O) "A discrete event between user and systems that supports a
>>        business or programmatic purpose." [M0404 ]
>>   
>>        Tutorial: To maintain secure state, transactions need to be
>>        processed coherently and reliably. Usually, they need to be
>>        designed to be atomic, consistent, isolated, and durable [Gray ]:
>>        -  "Atomic": All actions and events that comprise the transaction
>>           are guaranteed to be completed successfully, or else the result
>>           is as if none at all were executed.
>>        -  "Consistent": The transaction satisfies correctness constraints
>>           defined for the data that is being processed.
>>        -  "Isolated": If two transactions are performed concurrently,
>>           they do not interfere with each other, and it appears as though
>>           the system performs one at a time.
>>        -  "Durable": System state and transaction semantics survive
>>           system failures.
>>   
>> We shouldn’t try to invent a new meaning for the well-established computer science term “transaction” in this working group.
>>   
>>                                                         -- Mike
>>   
>> P.S.  On a personal note, I really continue to miss Jim Gray.
>>   
>> From: Justin Richer 
>> Sent: Monday, April 13, 2020 4:27 PM
>> To: Mike Jones 
>> Cc: Vijay IETF ; Matthew A. Miller ; Lee McGovern ; Amanjeev Sethi ; txauth@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Txauth] WG name: TxAuth? XAuth? Something else?
>>   
>> On Apr 13, 2020, at 6:25 PM, Mike Jones > wrote:
>>   
>> Because the proposed starting points and likely outcomes aren’t transactional, I believe we shouldn’t confuse people by calling it Transactional Authorization or using the abbreviation “Tx”.
>>   
>> I’m not sure what you mean. XYZ, as a starting point, is transactional by design. I have given several talks on this topic, which you have attended. And in fact I would argue that the entire intent-registration pattern, upon which both proposals are predicated, is transactional in nature as well. As Dick was kind enough to pull the definition earlier in this thread, let me restate that definition:
>>   
>>                a communicative action or activity involving two parties or things that reciprocally affect or influence each other
>>   
>> The entire act of getting the delegation to occur is a transaction between the client and the AS (or equivalent component). The client begins the transaction by talking to the AS, the AS continues the transaction by optionally getting the user involved, and the client continues the transaction when the interaction portion is completed, and so on. While this is intentionally built into XYZ, I would argue that even XAuth has this feature.
>>   
>> So with that in mind, I don’t think it’s misleading or confusing at all. I’m not sure why people keep referring to it as “incorrect”.
>>   
>> Yes, there are other definitions of “transaction” that do not apply — words have more than one definition, and that happens.
>>   
>> Since you asked, I will gladly offer my specific thoughts on your suggestions.
>>
>>
>>   
>> I haven’t heard responses to any of these brainstormed names yet:
>> Disaggregated Authorization (DisAuth)
>> Componentized Authorization (CompAuth)
>>   
>> Neither of these capture what’s different about this. The components are largely the same as they were in OAuth 2, UMA, OIDC, SAML, and related protocols. The componentization isn’t the new thing here, so I don’t think these are that good a fit.
>>
>>
>>   
>> Build-Your-Own Authorization (BYOAuth)
>> Do-It-Yourself Authorization (DIYAuth)
>>   
>> These aren’t really what we’re after at all. In fact, the proposed charter is specifically about building a protocol instead of a framework, so either of these are very misleading.
>>
>>
>>   
>> Refactored Authorization (ReAuth or RefAuth)
>>   
>> This doesn’t offer any description of what’s gone on here. Refactored from what? Additionally  I don’t believe this name flows naturally from the proposed shortenings.  “ReAuth” sounds like “ReAuthorization” and/or “ReAuthentication”, where as “RefAuth” sounds like it should stand for “reference” instead of “refactored”.
>>
>>
>>   
>>   
>> To those I’ll now add:
>> Alternative Authorization Protocol (AAP)
>> Alternative Authorization (AltAuth)
>> Reimagined Authorization (ReAuth)
>>   
>> All of these are problematic for the same reason that “NewAuth” or “NgAuth” are. They just say “it’s new” and don’t say anything about it. And if we’re successful, it won’t be “new" while people are still using it.
>>
>>
>>   
>> Back-end Based Authorization (BBAuth)
>>   
>> This is a start in concept, as it starts to talk about what’s different, but “BBAuth” is already something — one of the predecessors of OAuth 1.0 was “BBAuth” from Flickr (later Yahoo). Also, note that in this historical context, the expansion is “Browser Based Auth”, which could happen here again. As one of the key aspects of what people are interested is decoupling from the browser, we don’t want to have echos of that, even if the name weren’t already historically taken.
>>
>>
>>   
>>   
>> And for fun, there’s still:
>> Dismembered Authorization
>> Plus:
>> ZZAuth – The Protocol
>>   
>> Please, no.
>>
>>
>>   
>> Surely others must have other good ideas than don’t use the misleading term “Transactional” or its abbreviation “Tx”.
>>   
>>   
>> Again, as above, this is not misleading. That said, if there’s a better idea, I’m open to it. But for all of the reasons I keep repeating now, TxAuth is decent and I haven’t seen a better one.
>>   
>> Thanks,
>>   
>>   — Justin
>>
>>
>>                                                         Cheers,
>>                                                         -- Mike
>>   
>> From: Txauth > On Behalf Of Justin Richer
>> Sent: Monday, April 13, 2020 11:43 AM
>> To: Vijay IETF >
>> Cc: Matthew A. Miller >; Lee McGovern >; Amanjeev Sethi >; txauth@ietf.org 
>> Subject: Re: [Txauth] WG name: TxAuth? XAuth? Something else?
>>   
>> I appreciate the brainstorming of names here.
>>   
>> I dislike names like “NgAuth” or “YAAP” or the like because they rely on this being “new” and it’s only “new” right now. If we’re successful and people are still talking about it in ten years then it won’t be new anymore and the name will just seem absurd.
>>   
>> While we’re at it, we really can’t use “XAuth” because it’s already been something for 30 years: the X11 authentication command: https://www.x.org/archive/X11R6.8.1/doc/xauth.1.html 
>>   
>> My project’s name “XYZ” would also be a bad name for a lasting protocol, as it’s too generic on its own.
>>   
>> I still argue that we should call the protocol and the working group TxAuth. Not only do I think the underlying “transactional authorization” aspect is a key difference from what’s come before (the nature of which I’ve described many, many times on this list), if you go and search for the term “txauth” you end up back at this mailing list and the posts that people have made about it.
>>   
>>   — Justin
>>
>>
>>
>> On Apr 10, 2020, at 9:22 AM, Vijay IETF > wrote:
>>   
>> Assuming we are still at it...
>>   
>> NgAuth (Next Gen Auth).
>>   
>> On Tue, 24 Mar 2020 at 19:00, Amanjeev Sethi > wrote:
>> TOI (as in french you): TxAuth's OAuth's Improvement
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 24, 2020, at 4:25 AM, Lee McGovern wrote:
>>> YAAP
>>>
>>> Yet another authX protocol
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Txauth > On Behalf Of Matthew A. Miller
>>> Sent: Monday, March 23, 2020 3:06 PM
>>> To: txauth@ietf.org 
>>> Subject: Re: [Txauth] WG name: TxAuth? XAuth? Something else?
>>>
>>> On 20/03/23 13:49, Brian Campbell wrote:
>>>> YAAAAS - Yet Another Authorization And Authentication Specification
>>>>
>>> +1
>>>
>>>
>>> - m&m
>>>
>>> Matthew A. Miller
>>>
>>>> On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 1:39 PM Mike Jones
>>>> @dmarc..ietf.org 
>>>> >> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>      In brainstorming mode…____
>>>>
>>>>        * Disaggregated Authorization (DisAuth)____
>>>>        * Componentized Authorization (CompAuth)____
>>>>        * Build-Your-Own Authorization (BYOAuth)____
>>>>        * Do-It-Yourself Authorization (DIYAuth)____
>>>>        * Refactored Authorization (ReAuth or RefAuth)____
>>>>
>>>>      __ __
>>>>
>>>>      And for fun…____
>>>>
>>>>        * Dismembered Authorization____
>>>>
>>>>      __ __
>>>>
>>>>                                                             -- Mike____
>>>>
>>>>      __ __
>>>>
>>>>      *From:* Txauth 
>>>>      >> *On Behalf Of *David Skaife
>>>>      *Sent:* Saturday, March 21, 2020 11:22 AM
>>>>      *To:* Justin Richer  >>
>>>>      *Cc:* Yaron Sheffer 
>>>>      >>; txauth@ietf.org 
>>>>      >; Dick Hardt 
>>>>      >>
>>>>      *Subject:* Re: [Txauth] WG name: TxAuth? XAuth? Something
>>>> else?____
>>>>
>>>>      __ __
>>>>
>>>>      I think we're saying the same thing with regards to the working
>>>>      group name - I was saying it *isn't* particularly important in
>>>>      comparison to the name of the protocol (which obviously is very
>>>>      important).____
>>>>
>>>>      __ __
>>>>
>>>>      On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 6:18 PM Justin Richer 
>>>>      >> wrote:____
>>>>
>>>>          I disagree on the working group name being super important.
>>>>          Nobody knows that the OAuth WG is actually named “The Web
>>>>          Authorization Protocol Working Group”, and nobody cares.____
>>>>
>>>>          __ __
>>>>
>>>>          My proposal is that we name the protocol we work on “TxAuth”
>>>>          (and keep the mailing list), and that we name the working group
>>>>          something like “Next Generation Web Authorization Protocol” to
>>>>          say what we’re doing.____
>>>>
>>>>          __ __
>>>>
>>>>           -- Justin____
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>          ____
>>>>
>>>>              On Mar 21, 2020, at 2:08 PM, David Skaife
>>>>              
>>>>              >> wrote:____
>>>>
>>>>              __ __
>>>>
>>>>              Just to throw in another suggestion, to address Yaron's
>>>>              point about some people mistakenly thinking that "Auth"
>>>>              stands for authentication rather than authorization, how
>>>>              about naming the working group *AuthZ*____
>>>>
>>>>              Nice and simple, and it makes it clear what the group is
>>>>              focused on.
>>>>
>>>>              I think the name of the actual protocol that we produce is
>>>>              far, far more important that the name of the working group -
>>>>              and the name of that protocol doesn't need to correlate to
>>>>              the WG name. Also, we have much more time before we need to
>>>>              decide on the name of that protocol, even if the
>>>>              initial draft documents that we produce end up using a
>>>>              placeholder name.____
>>>>
>>>>              __ __
>>>>
>>>>              On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 5:44 PM Justin Richer
>>>>               >> wrote:____
>>>>
>>>>                  As you can see in the email you replied to, that is not
>>>>                  even close to what I said. I believe it is a
>>>>                  transaction, and therefore, I do not agree that it’s not
>>>>                  a transaction.____
>>>>
>>>>                  __ __
>>>>
>>>>                  But if we take “Transactional” out of the WG title, I
>>>>                  won’t be offended. If we just call it “TxAuth” without
>>>>                  expansion, then that’s fine.____
>>>>
>>>>                  __ __
>>>>
>>>>                  I do not like calling it “XAuth”. The term “TAuth" was
>>>>                  floated during naming the list, but rejected because
>>>>                  (among other reasons) it would likely be awkwardly
>>>>                  pronounced as “towth” or something. TxAuth reads as “Tee
>>>>                  - ex - oth” more naturally, which was the intent. ____
>>>>
>>>>                  __ __
>>>>
>>>>                  So how about we take a page from the OAuth working group
>>>>                  and name it:____
>>>>
>>>>                  __ __
>>>>
>>>>                  TxAuth - Next Generation Web Authorization Protocol
>>>>                  Working Group____
>>>>
>>>>                  __ __
>>>>
>>>>                  __ __
>>>>
>>>>                   — Justin____
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>                  ____
>>>>
>>>>                      On Mar 21, 2020, at 1:15 PM, Dick Hardt
>>>>                       >>
>>>>                      wrote:____
>>>>
>>>>                      __ __
>>>>
>>>>                      To clarify -- you agree it is not a transaction, and
>>>>                      we will take the word transaction out of the WG
>>>>                      title?____
>>>>
>>>>                      __ __
>>>>
>>>>                      On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 5:53 PM Justin Richer
>>>>                       >>
>>>> wrote:____
>>>>
>>>>                          Dick, thanks for pulling the definitions
>>>> up:____
>>>>
>>>>                          __ __
>>>>
>>>>                          > a communicative action or activity involving
>>>>                          two parties or things that reciprocally affect
>>>>                          or influence each other____
>>>>
>>>>                          __ __
>>>>
>>>>                          This is the kind of thing that I had in mind.
>>>>                          The client and the AS are in a conversation over
>>>>                          time that each one contributes to and each
>>>>                          changes. ____
>>>>
>>>>                          __ __
>>>>
>>>>                          Also — we can just as easily decide that
>>>>                          “TxAuth” doesn’t stand for “Transactional Auth”
>>>>                          much the same way we decided that the “O” in
>>>>                          “OAuth” doesn’t stand for “Open” anymore. ____
>>>>
>>>>                          __ __
>>>>
>>>>                          None of the arguments below in favor of XAuth
>>>>                          have made me like that name better. If it’s just
>>>>                          a “placeholder” name, then why come up with
>>>>                          something new?____
>>>>
>>>>                          __ __
>>>>
>>>>                           — Justin____
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>                          ____
>>>>
>>>>                              On Mar 20, 2020, at 3:32 PM, Dick Hardt
>>>>                              
>>>>                              >> wrote:____
>>>>
>>>>                              __ __
>>>>
>>>>                              __ __
>>>>
>>>>                              __ __
>>>>
>>>>                              __ __
>>>>
>>>>                              not a transaction - there are multiple
>>>>                              transactions____
>>>>
>>>>                              __ __
>>>>
>>>>                              backchannel innovation is combination of
>>>>                              here is who I am, and here is what I want to
>>>>                              do____
>>>>
>>>>                              __ __
>>>>
>>>>                              __ __
>>>>
>>>>                              childhood trauma therapy group____
>>>>
>>>>                              __ __
>>>>
>>>>                              __ __
>>>>
>>>>                              __ __
>>>>
>>>>                              On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 6:56 PM Justin
>>>>                              Richer 
>>>>                              >> wrote:____
>>>>
>>>>                                  Yes, naming things is hard — but I still
>>>>                                  believe in the name TxAuth. We’re moving
>>>>                                  beyond OAuth, and taking the process of
>>>>                                  getting an authorization delegated to
>>>>                                  the client software as a multi-step,
>>>>                                  multi-party transaction is, I believe,
>>>>                                  the key insight that’s letting us move
>>>>                                  beyond OAuth’s limitations here. It’s
>>>>                                  not just about going to the AS first —
>>>>                                  we had that in OAuth 1 and we’re
>>>>                                  patching that into OAuth 2 with PAR.. I
>>>>                                  really think it’s about the transaction
>>>>                                  at the core.. ____
>>>>
>>>>                              __ __
>>>>
>>>>                              OAuth 2.0 had multi-step, multi-party.
>>>>                              TxAuth extends that.____
>>>>
>>>>                              __ __
>>>>
>>>>                              I think the big shift is going to the AS.
>>>>                              This enables the request to be richer with
>>>>                              JSON, instead of name/value pairs parameters
>>>>                              in a URI. It allows the client and AS to
>>>>                              negotiate, and to short circuit having to
>>>>                              redirect the user to the AS. PAR does some
>>>>                              of this, but it is constrained by having to
>>>>                              do it in the OAuth 2.0 context.____
>>>>
>>>>                              __ __
>>>>
>>>>                              My concern is that the protocol is MUCH MORE
>>>>                              than a transaction. While the initial
>>>>                              interaction between client, AS, user and RO
>>>>                              is a transaction. The protocol also covers
>>>>                              the client and RS interactions. The access
>>>>                              token refreshes. Access token revocation.
>>>>                              Access token introspection. As described in
>>>>                              the charter, there is a whole lifecycle,
>>>>                              that consists of multiple
>>>> transactions.____
>>>>
>>>>                              __ __
>>>>
>>>>                              From
>>>> https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transaction:____ 
>>>>
>>>>                              __ __
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>                                  Definition of /transaction/____
>>>>
>>>>                              *1a**: *something transacted
>>>>                              >/especially/ *: *an
>>>>                              exchange or transfer
>>>>                              > of
>>>>                              goods, services, or
>>>>                              fundselectronic /transactions/____
>>>>
>>>>                              *b: transactions*/ plural/ *: *the often
>>>>                              published record of the meeting of a society
>>>>                              or association____
>>>>
>>>>                              *2a**: *an act, process, or instance
>>>>                              of transacting
>>>>                              
>>>> >____
>>>>
>>>>                              *b**: *a communicative action or activity
>>>>                              involving two parties or things that
>>>>                              reciprocally affect or influence each
>>>> other____
>>>>
>>>>                              __ __
>>>>
>>>>                              Calling the protocol a transaction will
>>>>                              confusing to people.____
>>>>
>>>>                               ____
>>>>
>>>>                                  __ __
>>>>
>>>>                                  Having come of age in the 1990’s, I have
>>>>                                  particular dislike for XAuth. It sounds
>>>>                                  too “X-TREME” and “X-CITING”, and if you
>>>>                                  read either of those with a growling
>>>>                                  yell in your head then you know exactly
>>>>                                  what I’m talking about.____
>>>>
>>>>                              __ __
>>>>
>>>>                              In case you are confused, this is not a
>>>>                              childhood trauma support group.  :)____
>>>>
>>>>                              __ __
>>>>
>>>>                              Unlike "X-TREME" or "X-CITING", XAuth is
>>>>                              using the "X" as a placeholder. X-Men, Xbox,
>>>>                              X-Factor, X-files. ____
>>>>
>>>>                              __ __
>>>>
>>>>                              
>>>> https://www.businessinsider.com/the-indisputable-power-of-brand-x-2012 
>>>> -4____
>>>>
>>>>                              __ __
>>>>
>>>>                              
>>>> https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/358181/whats-the-purpose-o 
>>>> f-using-letter-x-or-x-as-a-suffix-in-brand-names____
>>>>
>>>>                              __ __
>>>>
>>>>                               ____
>>>>
>>>>                                  And to Dick’s rationale for the name
>>>>                                  below, I absolutely do NOT see this work
>>>>                                  as “OAuth with all the extra features”.
>>>>                                  I think that does a disservice to the
>>>>                                  kind of change we have an opportunity to
>>>>                                  make here. ____
>>>>
>>>>                              __ __
>>>>
>>>>                              From the charter ____
>>>>
>>>>                              __ __
>>>>
>>>>                                  "It will expand upon the uses cases
>>>>                                  currently supported by OAuth 2.0 and
>>>>                                  OpenID Connect (itself an extension of
>>>>                                  OAuth 2.0)"____
>>>>
>>>>                              __ __
>>>>
>>>>                              Which sounds pretty similar to “OAuth with
>>>>                              all the extra features”____
>>>>
>>>>                              __ __
>>>>
>>>>                              While I think XAuth captures what we are
>>>>                              doing, a placeholder name would be
>>>>                              preferable to an incorrect descriptive name
>>>>                              such as TxAuth.____
>>>>
>>>>                              __ __
>>>>
>>>>                              For example, XYZ is a good placeholder name.
>>>>                              Or XYZAuth. Let's not mislead people.____
>>>>
>>>>                               ____
>>>>
>>>>                                  __ __
>>>>
>>>>                                   — Justin____
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>                                  ____
>>>>
>>>>                                      On Mar 16, 2020, at 7:04 PM, Dick
>>>>                                      Hardt 
>>>>                                      >>
>>>>                                      wrote:____
>>>>
>>>>                                      __ __
>>>>
>>>>                                      Hello everyone____
>>>>
>>>>                                      __ __
>>>>
>>>>                                      I prompted a thread around the name
>>>>                                      of the protocol a while back:____
>>>>
>>>>                                      __ __
>>>>
>>>>                                      
>>>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/txauth/ZVQVbHt4ADqehKrBDXOrTr_s_ 
>>>> wc/____
>>>>
>>>>                                      __ __
>>>>
>>>>                                      As Justin stated "naming is
>>>> hard"____
>>>>
>>>>                                      __ __
>>>>
>>>>                                      Wearing my marketing hat I want to
>>>>                                      ensure that the name will be
>>>>                                      perceived properly in the broader
>>>>                                      community.____
>>>>
>>>>                                      __ __
>>>>
>>>>                                      A recent example that comes to mind
>>>>                                      are the privacy related works on the
>>>>                                      browser storage API. Given that
>>>>                                      name, one would think that it is
>>>>                                      local storage. It is actually about
>>>>                                      browser cookies.____
>>>>
>>>>                                      __ __
>>>>
>>>>                                      Justin discussed his reasons for
>>>>                                      TxAuth in the thread above (and I'm
>>>>                                      sure in other places)____
>>>>
>>>>                                      __ __
>>>>
>>>>                                      I chose XAuth in my draft to reflect
>>>>                                      the eXtensibility goal that we have
>>>>                                      over OAuth -- and XAuth is OAuth but
>>>>                                      with an X to reflect all the extra
>>>>                                      features. =)____
>>>>
>>>>                                      __ __
>>>>
>>>>                                      Other suggestions?____
>>>>
>>>>                                      __ __
>>>>
>>>>                                      This will be an agenda item in the
>>>>                                      BoF -- but the name will NOT be an
>>>>                                      open discussion item -- we will
>>>>                                      summarize what has been discussed on
>>>>                                      the list and perhaps do a poll of
>>>>                                      options presented unless consensus
>>>>                                      is obvious from this thread.____
>>>>
>>>>                                      __ __
>>>>
>>>>                                      /Dick____
>>>>
>>>>                                      __ __
>>>>
>>>>                                      __ __
>>>>
>>>>                                      __ __
>>>>
>>>>                                      __ __
>>>>
>>>>                                      __ __
>>>>
>>>>                                      ᐧ____
>>>>
>>>>                                  __ __
>>>>
>>>>                          __ __
>>>>
>>>>                  __ __
>>>>
>>>>                  --
>>>>                  Txauth mailing list
>>>>                  Txauth@ietf.org  >
>>>>                  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth____ 
>>>>
>>>>          __ __
>>>>
>>>>      --
>>>>      Txauth mailing list
>>>>      Txauth@ietf.org  >
>>>>      https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth 
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>> >Ping Identity >
>>>> Brian Campbell
>>>> Distinguished Engineer
>>>> bcampbell@pingidentity.com  >
>>>> w: +1 720.317.2061
>>>> c: +1 303.918..9415
>>>>
>>>> Connect with us:    Glassdoor logo
>>>> 
>>>> 07.11,24.htm> LinkedIn logo >
>>>> twitter logo
>>>> >  facebook logo
>>>> > youtube logo
>>>> > Blog logo
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> 
>>>> /ping-6-2-assets/Assets/faqs/en/consumer-attitudes-post-breach-era-337
>>>> 5.pdf?id%3Db6322a80-f285-11e3-ac10-0800200c9a66&source=gmail&ust=15416
>>>> 93608526000&usg=AFQjCNGBl5cPHCUAVKGZ_NnpuFj5PHGSUQ>
>>>> entity.com/en/events/d/identify-2019.html >
>>>> m/content/dam/ping-6-2-assets/Assets/Misc/en/3464-consumersurvey-execs
>>>> ummary.pdf>>>>> /www.pingidentity.com/en/events/e/rsa.html >
>>>> om/en/lp/e/enabling-work-from-home-with-MFA.html>
>>>>
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--------------F389E10762C27C3598028C96
Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit


  
    
  
  
    Personally I like TRADE as the words clearly identify what the
    protocol is about. For me, the protocol is about establishing
    Authorization and Delegation for use in multiple transactions over
    time.
    
    
    
    
    On 4/13/20 9:24 PM, Justin Richer
      wrote:
    
    
    
    
    
      
    Mike, thanks for pulling up the definition. I agree we don’t want to redefine a well-used term, but I disagree that this is any attempt to redefine the well-used term here; but instead I see us applying it in a way that is consistent with the design goals of at least one of the input documents (XYZ) and I would argue with the core tenets of the solution space that we’re looking into. 

While the definition that I quoted from Dick below is the best fit, I still think that the units below are also appropriate. You begin the transaction when the client starts things off. The transaction ends when the token is issued. The token is the result of the transaction. While it’s not a perfect 1:1 mapping, since we’re talking about a multi-party protocol and not the fundamental definition here, 

And I think with all of this argument it’s important to point out that I’ve been using an adjective form the whole time: Transactional Authorization. It’s an authorization that has aspects and components and artifacts of a transaction. That doesn’t mean that this protocol is a transaction in every aspect. Nor is it, I would argue, authorization in every aspect. Just like “identity” covers many, many things, so do these terms, and I think we’re honestly hitting enough of them for it to make sense, still.

I’m still fine with a *better* name if there is one to be had. Naming things is hard.

For some context, these are a few of the names that Roman and I tossed around when we came up with TxAuth for the list name six months ago:

	TRAP: Transaction Authorization Protocol

	TRADE: Transaction Authorization and Delegation

I’m not a big fan of either of those because I’m not big on cute and pronounceable acronyms, personally. I could live with “TRADE” though if there was a groundswell for it.

 — Justin


    
      
    
        
    On Apr 13, 2020, at 7:37 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> wrote:

The normal computer science use of the term “transaction” involves a proposed state change that either commits or aborts atomically.  That doesn’t match your description of the term below.  It also doesn’t match the RFC 4949 <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4949> definition of the term (which does match my paraphrase above).  It reads:
 
   $ transaction
      1. (I) A unit of interaction between an external entity and a
      system, or between components within a system, that involves a
      series of system actions or events.
 
      2. (O) "A discrete event between user and systems that supports a
      business or programmatic purpose." [M0404 <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4949#ref-M0404>]
 
      Tutorial: To maintain secure state, transactions need to be
      processed coherently and reliably. Usually, they need to be
      designed to be atomic, consistent, isolated, and durable [Gray <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4949#ref-Gray>]:
      -  "Atomic": All actions and events that comprise the transaction
         are guaranteed to be completed successfully, or else the result
         is as if none at all were executed.
      -  "Consistent": The transaction satisfies correctness constraints
         defined for the data that is being processed.
      -  "Isolated": If two transactions are performed concurrently,
         they do not interfere with each other, and it appears as though
         the system performs one at a time.
      -  "Durable": System state and transaction semantics survive
         system failures.
 
We shouldn’t try to invent a new meaning for the well-established computer science term “transaction” in this working group.
 
                                                       -- Mike
 
P.S.  On a personal note, I really continue to miss Jim Gray.
 
From: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> 
Sent: Monday, April 13, 2020 4:27 PM
To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
Cc: Vijay IETF <vijay.ietf@gmail.com>; Matthew A. Miller <linuxwolf+ietf@outer-planes.net>; Lee McGovern <Lee_McGovern@swissre.com>; Amanjeev Sethi <aj@amanjeev.com>; txauth@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Txauth] WG name: TxAuth? XAuth? Something else?
 
On Apr 13, 2020, at 6:25 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com <mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>> wrote:
 
Because the proposed starting points and likely outcomes aren’t transactional, I believe we shouldn’t confuse people by calling it Transactional Authorization or using the abbreviation “Tx”.
 
I’m not sure what you mean. XYZ, as a starting point, is transactional by design. I have given several talks on this topic, which you have attended. And in fact I would argue that the entire intent-registration pattern, upon which both proposals are predicated, is transactional in nature as well. As Dick was kind enough to pull the definition earlier in this thread, let me restate that definition:
 
              a communicative action or activity involving two parties or things that reciprocally affect or influence each other
 
The entire act of getting the delegation to occur is a transaction between the client and the AS (or equivalent component). The client begins the transaction by talking to the AS, the AS continues the transaction by optionally getting the user involved, and the client continues the transaction when the interaction portion is completed, and so on. While this is intentionally built into XYZ, I would argue that even XAuth has this feature.
 
So with that in mind, I don’t think it’s misleading or confusing at all. I’m not sure why people keep referring to it as “incorrect”. 
 
Yes, there are other definitions of “transaction” that do not apply — words have more than one definition, and that happens.
 
Since you asked, I will gladly offer my specific thoughts on your suggestions.


 
I haven’t heard responses to any of these brainstormed names yet:
Disaggregated Authorization (DisAuth)
Componentized Authorization (CompAuth)
 
Neither of these capture what’s different about this. The components are largely the same as they were in OAuth 2, UMA, OIDC, SAML, and related protocols. The componentization isn’t the new thing here, so I don’t think these are that good a fit.


 
Build-Your-Own Authorization (BYOAuth)
Do-It-Yourself Authorization (DIYAuth)
 
These aren’t really what we’re after at all. In fact, the proposed charter is specifically about building a protocol instead of a framework, so either of these are very misleading.


 
Refactored Authorization (ReAuth or RefAuth)
 
This doesn’t offer any description of what’s gone on here. Refactored from what? Additionally  I don’t believe this name flows naturally from the proposed shortenings.  “ReAuth” sounds like “ReAuthorization” and/or “ReAuthentication”, where as “RefAuth” sounds like it should stand for “reference” instead of “refactored”.


 
 
To those I’ll now add:
Alternative Authorization Protocol (AAP)
Alternative Authorization (AltAuth)
Reimagined Authorization (ReAuth)
 
All of these are problematic for the same reason that “NewAuth” or “NgAuth” are. They just say “it’s new” and don’t say anything about it. And if we’re successful, it won’t be “new" while people are still using it.


 
Back-end Based Authorization (BBAuth)
 
This is a start in concept, as it starts to talk about what’s different, but “BBAuth” is already something — one of the predecessors of OAuth 1.0 was “BBAuth” from Flickr (later Yahoo). Also, note that in this historical context, the expansion is “Browser Based Auth”, which could happen here again. As one of the key aspects of what people are interested is decoupling from the browser, we don’t want to have echos of that, even if the name weren’t already historically taken.


 
 
And for fun, there’s still:
Dismembered Authorization
Plus:
ZZAuth – The Protocol
 
Please, no.


 
Surely others must have other good ideas than don’t use the misleading term “Transactional” or its abbreviation “Tx”.
 
 
Again, as above, this is not misleading. That said, if there’s a better idea, I’m open to it. But for all of the reasons I keep repeating now, TxAuth is decent and I haven’t seen a better one.
 
Thanks,
 
 — Justin


                                                       Cheers,
                                                       -- Mike
 
From: Txauth <txauth-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:txauth-bounces@ietf.org>> On Behalf Of Justin Richer
Sent: Monday, April 13, 2020 11:43 AM
To: Vijay IETF <vijay.ietf@gmail.com <mailto:vijay.ietf@gmail.com>>
Cc: Matthew A. Miller <linuxwolf+ietf@outer-planes.net <mailto:linuxwolf+ietf@outer-planes.net>>; Lee McGovern <Lee_McGovern@swissre.com <mailto:Lee_McGovern@swissre.com>>; Amanjeev Sethi <aj@amanjeev.com <mailto:aj@amanjeev.com>>; txauth@ietf.org <mailto:txauth@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Txauth] WG name: TxAuth? XAuth? Something else?
 
I appreciate the brainstorming of names here. 
 
I dislike names like “NgAuth” or “YAAP” or the like because they rely on this being “new” and it’s only “new” right now. If we’re successful and people are still talking about it in ten years then it won’t be new anymore and the name will just seem absurd. 
 
While we’re at it, we really can’t use “XAuth” because it’s already been something for 30 years: the X11 authentication command: https://www.x.org/archive/X11R6.8.1/doc/xauth.1.html <https://www.x.org/archive/X11R6.8.1/doc/xauth.1.html>
 
My project’s name “XYZ” would also be a bad name for a lasting protocol, as it’s too generic on its own. 
 
I still argue that we should call the protocol and the working group TxAuth. Not only do I think the underlying “transactional authorization” aspect is a key difference from what’s come before (the nature of which I’ve described many, many times on this list), if you go and search for the term “txauth” you end up back at this mailing list and the posts that people have made about it. 
 
 — Justin



On Apr 10, 2020, at 9:22 AM, Vijay IETF <vijay.ietf@gmail.com <mailto:vijay.ietf@gmail.com>> wrote:
 
Assuming we are still at it...
 
NgAuth (Next Gen Auth).
 
On Tue, 24 Mar 2020 at 19:00, Amanjeev Sethi <aj@amanjeev.com <mailto:aj@amanjeev.com>> wrote:
TOI (as in french you): TxAuth's OAuth's Improvement

On Tue, Mar 24, 2020, at 4:25 AM, Lee McGovern wrote:

    
        
    
          
    YAAP 

Yet another authX protocol


-----Original Message-----
From: Txauth <txauth-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:txauth-bounces@ietf.org>> On Behalf Of Matthew A. Miller
Sent: Monday, March 23, 2020 3:06 PM
To: txauth@ietf.org <mailto:txauth@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Txauth] WG name: TxAuth? XAuth? Something else?

On 20/03/23 13:49, Brian Campbell wrote:

    
          
    
            
    YAAAAS - Yet Another Authorization And Authentication Specification


    
          
    
          
    +1


- m&m

Matthew A. Miller


    
          
    
            
    On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 1:39 PM Mike Jones 
<Michael.Jones=40microsoft.com <http://40microsoft.com/>@dmarc..ietf.org <http://ietf.org/>
<mailto:40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org <mailto:40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org>>> wrote:

    In brainstorming mode…____

      * Disaggregated Authorization (DisAuth)____
      * Componentized Authorization (CompAuth)____
      * Build-Your-Own Authorization (BYOAuth)____
      * Do-It-Yourself Authorization (DIYAuth)____
      * Refactored Authorization (ReAuth or RefAuth)____

    __ __

    And for fun…____

      * Dismembered Authorization____

    __ __

                                                           -- Mike____

    __ __

    *From:* Txauth <txauth-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:txauth-bounces@ietf.org>
    <mailto:txauth-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:txauth-bounces@ietf.org>>> *On Behalf Of *David Skaife
    *Sent:* Saturday, March 21, 2020 11:22 AM
    *To:* Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu <mailto:jricher@mit.edu> <mailto:jricher@mit.edu <mailto:jricher@mit.edu>>>
    *Cc:* Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com <mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>
    <mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com <mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>>>; txauth@ietf.org <mailto:txauth@ietf.org>
    <mailto:txauth@ietf.org <mailto:txauth@ietf.org>>; Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>
    <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>>>
    *Subject:* Re: [Txauth] WG name: TxAuth? XAuth? Something 
else?____

    __ __

    I think we're saying the same thing with regards to the working
    group name - I was saying it *isn't* particularly important in
    comparison to the name of the protocol (which obviously is very
    important).____

    __ __

    On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 6:18 PM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu <mailto:jricher@mit.edu>
    <mailto:jricher@mit.edu <mailto:jricher@mit.edu>>> wrote:____

        I disagree on the working group name being super important.
        Nobody knows that the OAuth WG is actually named “The Web
        Authorization Protocol Working Group”, and nobody cares.____

        __ __

        My proposal is that we name the protocol we work on “TxAuth”
        (and keep the mailing list), and that we name the working group
        something like “Next Generation Web Authorization Protocol” to
        say what we’re doing.____

        __ __

         -- Justin____



        ____

            On Mar 21, 2020, at 2:08 PM, David Skaife
            <blue.ringed.octopus.guy@gmail.com <mailto:blue.ringed.octopus.guy@gmail.com>
            <mailto:blue.ringed.octopus.guy@gmail.com <mailto:blue.ringed.octopus.guy@gmail.com>>> wrote:____

            __ __

            Just to throw in another suggestion, to address Yaron's
            point about some people mistakenly thinking that "Auth"
            stands for authentication rather than authorization, how
            about naming the working group *AuthZ*____

            Nice and simple, and it makes it clear what the group is
            focused on.

            I think the name of the actual protocol that we produce is
            far, far more important that the name of the working group -
            and the name of that protocol doesn't need to correlate to
            the WG name. Also, we have much more time before we need to
            decide on the name of that protocol, even if the
            initial draft documents that we produce end up using a
            placeholder name.____

            __ __

            On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 5:44 PM Justin Richer
            <jricher@mit.edu <mailto:jricher@mit.edu> <mailto:jricher@mit.edu <mailto:jricher@mit.edu>>> wrote:____

                As you can see in the email you replied to, that is not
                even close to what I said. I believe it is a
                transaction, and therefore, I do not agree that it’s not
                a transaction.____

                __ __

                But if we take “Transactional” out of the WG title, I
                won’t be offended. If we just call it “TxAuth” without
                expansion, then that’s fine.____

                __ __

                I do not like calling it “XAuth”. The term “TAuth" was
                floated during naming the list, but rejected because
                (among other reasons) it would likely be awkwardly
                pronounced as “towth” or something. TxAuth reads as “Tee
                - ex - oth” more naturally, which was the intent. ____

                __ __

                So how about we take a page from the OAuth working group
                and name it:____

                __ __

                TxAuth - Next Generation Web Authorization Protocol
                Working Group____

                __ __

                __ __

                 — Justin____



                ____

                    On Mar 21, 2020, at 1:15 PM, Dick Hardt
                    <dick.hardt@gmail.com <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com> <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>>>
                    wrote:____

                    __ __

                    To clarify -- you agree it is not a transaction, and
                    we will take the word transaction out of the WG
                    title?____

                    __ __

                    On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 5:53 PM Justin Richer
                    <jricher@mit.edu <mailto:jricher@mit.edu> <mailto:jricher@mit.edu <mailto:jricher@mit.edu>>> 
wrote:____

                        Dick, thanks for pulling the definitions 
up:____

                        __ __

                        > a communicative action or activity involving
                        two parties or things that reciprocally affect
                        or influence each other____

                        __ __

                        This is the kind of thing that I had in mind.
                        The client and the AS are in a conversation over
                        time that each one contributes to and each
                        changes. ____

                        __ __

                        Also — we can just as easily decide that
                        “TxAuth” doesn’t stand for “Transactional Auth”
                        much the same way we decided that the “O” in
                        “OAuth” doesn’t stand for “Open” anymore. ____

                        __ __

                        None of the arguments below in favor of XAuth
                        have made me like that name better. If it’s just
                        a “placeholder” name, then why come up with
                        something new?____

                        __ __

                         — Justin____



                        ____

                            On Mar 20, 2020, at 3:32 PM, Dick Hardt
                            <dick.hardt@gmail.com <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>
                            <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>>> wrote:____

                            __ __

                            __ __

                            __ __

                            __ __

                            not a transaction - there are multiple
                            transactions____

                            __ __

                            backchannel innovation is combination of
                            here is who I am, and here is what I want to
                            do____

                            __ __

                            __ __

                            childhood trauma therapy group____

                            __ __

                            __ __

                            __ __

                            On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 6:56 PM Justin
                            Richer <jricher@mit.edu <mailto:jricher@mit.edu>
                            <mailto:jricher@mit.edu <mailto:jricher@mit.edu>>> wrote:____

                                Yes, naming things is hard — but I still
                                believe in the name TxAuth. We’re moving
                                beyond OAuth, and taking the process of
                                getting an authorization delegated to
                                the client software as a multi-step,
                                multi-party transaction is, I believe,
                                the key insight that’s letting us move
                                beyond OAuth’s limitations here. It’s
                                not just about going to the AS first —
                                we had that in OAuth 1 and we’re
                                patching that into OAuth 2 with PAR.. I
                                really think it’s about the transaction
                                at the core.. ____

                            __ __

                            OAuth 2.0 had multi-step, multi-party.
                            TxAuth extends that.____

                            __ __

                            I think the big shift is going to the AS.
                            This enables the request to be richer with
                            JSON, instead of name/value pairs parameters
                            in a URI. It allows the client and AS to
                            negotiate, and to short circuit having to
                            redirect the user to the AS. PAR does some
                            of this, but it is constrained by having to
                            do it in the OAuth 2.0 context.____

                            __ __

                            My concern is that the protocol is MUCH MORE
                            than a transaction. While the initial
                            interaction between client, AS, user and RO
                            is a transaction. The protocol also covers
                            the client and RS interactions. The access
                            token refreshes. Access token revocation.
                            Access token introspection. As described in
                            the charter, there is a whole lifecycle,
                            that consists of multiple 
transactions.____

                            __ __

                            From
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transaction:____ <https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transaction:____>

                            __ __


                                Definition of /transaction/____

                            *1a**: *something transacted
                            <https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transacted <https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transacted>>/especially/ *: *an
                            exchange or transfer
                            <https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transfer <https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transfer>> of
                            goods, services, or
                            fundselectronic /transactions/____

                            *b: transactions*/ plural/ *: *the often
                            published record of the meeting of a society
                            or association____

                            *2a**: *an act, process, or instance
                            of transacting
                            
<https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transacting <https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transacting>>____

                            *b**: *a communicative action or activity
                            involving two parties or things that
                            reciprocally affect or influence each 
other____

                            __ __

                            Calling the protocol a transaction will
                            confusing to people.____

                             ____

                                __ __

                                Having come of age in the 1990’s, I have
                                particular dislike for XAuth. It sounds
                                too “X-TREME” and “X-CITING”, and if you
                                read either of those with a growling
                                yell in your head then you know exactly
                                what I’m talking about.____

                            __ __

                            In case you are confused, this is not a
                            childhood trauma support group.  :)____

                            __ __

                            Unlike "X-TREME" or "X-CITING", XAuth is
                            using the "X" as a placeholder. X-Men, Xbox,
                            X-Factor, X-files. ____

                            __ __

                            
https://www.businessinsider.com/the-indisputable-power-of-brand-x-2012 <https://www.businessinsider.com/the-indisputable-power-of-brand-x-2012>
-4____

                            __ __

                            
https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/358181/whats-the-purpose-o <https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/358181/whats-the-purpose-o>
f-using-letter-x-or-x-as-a-suffix-in-brand-names____

                            __ __

                             ____

                                And to Dick’s rationale for the name
                                below, I absolutely do NOT see this work
                                as “OAuth with all the extra features”.
                                I think that does a disservice to the
                                kind of change we have an opportunity to
                                make here. ____

                            __ __

                            From the charter ____

                            __ __

                                "It will expand upon the uses cases
                                currently supported by OAuth 2.0 and
                                OpenID Connect (itself an extension of
                                OAuth 2.0)"____

                            __ __

                            Which sounds pretty similar to “OAuth with
                            all the extra features”____

                            __ __

                            While I think XAuth captures what we are
                            doing, a placeholder name would be
                            preferable to an incorrect descriptive name
                            such as TxAuth.____

                            __ __

                            For example, XYZ is a good placeholder name.
                            Or XYZAuth. Let's not mislead people.____

                             ____

                                __ __

                                 — Justin____



                                ____

                                    On Mar 16, 2020, at 7:04 PM, Dick
                                    Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>
                                    <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>>>
                                    wrote:____

                                    __ __

                                    Hello everyone____

                                    __ __

                                    I prompted a thread around the name
                                    of the protocol a while back:____

                                    __ __

                                    
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/txauth/ZVQVbHt4ADqehKrBDXOrTr_s_ <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/txauth/ZVQVbHt4ADqehKrBDXOrTr_s_>
wc/____

                                    __ __

                                    As Justin stated "naming is 
hard"____

                                    __ __

                                    Wearing my marketing hat I want to
                                    ensure that the name will be
                                    perceived properly in the broader
                                    community.____

                                    __ __

                                    A recent example that comes to mind
                                    are the privacy related works on the
                                    browser storage API. Given that
                                    name, one would think that it is
                                    local storage. It is actually about
                                    browser cookies.____

                                    __ __

                                    Justin discussed his reasons for
                                    TxAuth in the thread above (and I'm
                                    sure in other places)____

                                    __ __

                                    I chose XAuth in my draft to reflect
                                    the eXtensibility goal that we have
                                    over OAuth -- and XAuth is OAuth but
                                    with an X to reflect all the extra
                                    features. =)____

                                    __ __

                                    Other suggestions?____

                                    __ __

                                    This will be an agenda item in the
                                    BoF -- but the name will NOT be an
                                    open discussion item -- we will
                                    summarize what has been discussed on
                                    the list and perhaps do a poll of
                                    options presented unless consensus
                                    is obvious from this thread.____

                                    __ __

                                    /Dick____

                                    __ __

                                    __ __

                                    __ __

                                    __ __

                                    __ __

                                    ᐧ____

                                __ __

                        __ __

                __ __

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From: "Hjelm, Bjorn" 
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 09:39:28 -0700
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To: George Fletcher 
Cc: Justin Richer , Mike Jones ,  "Matthew A. Miller" , Vijay IETF , Lee McGovern , Amanjeev Sethi , "txauth@ietf.org" 
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Subject: Re: [Txauth] [E] Re:  WG name: TxAuth? XAuth? Something else?
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I agree with George.

+1 on TRADE.

BR,
Bjorn


On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 8:54 AM George Fletcher  wrote:

> Personally I like TRADE as the words clearly identify what the protocol i=
s
> about. For me, the protocol is about establishing Authorization and
> Delegation for use in multiple transactions over time.
>
> On 4/13/20 9:24 PM, Justin Richer wrote:
>
> Mike, thanks for pulling up the definition. I agree we don=E2=80=99t want=
 to redefine a well-used term, but I disagree that this is any attempt to r=
edefine the well-used term here; but instead I see us applying it in a way =
that is consistent with the design goals of at least one of the input docum=
ents (XYZ) and I would argue with the core tenets of the solution space tha=
t we=E2=80=99re looking into.
>
> While the definition that I quoted from Dick below is the best fit, I sti=
ll think that the units below are also appropriate. You begin the transacti=
on when the client starts things off. The transaction ends when the token i=
s issued. The token is the result of the transaction. While it=E2=80=99s no=
t a perfect 1:1 mapping, since we=E2=80=99re talking about a multi-party pr=
otocol and not the fundamental definition here,
>
> And I think with all of this argument it=E2=80=99s important to point out=
 that I=E2=80=99ve been using an adjective form the whole time: Transaction=
al Authorization. It=E2=80=99s an authorization that has aspects and compon=
ents and artifacts of a transaction. That doesn=E2=80=99t mean that this pr=
otocol is a transaction in every aspect. Nor is it, I would argue, authoriz=
ation in every aspect. Just like =E2=80=9Cidentity=E2=80=9D covers many, ma=
ny things, so do these terms, and I think we=E2=80=99re honestly hitting en=
ough of them for it to make sense, still.
>
> I=E2=80=99m still fine with a *better* name if there is one to be had. Na=
ming things is hard.
>
> For some context, these are a few of the names that Roman and I tossed ar=
ound when we came up with TxAuth for the list name six months ago:
>
> 	TRAP: Transaction Authorization Protocol
>
> 	TRADE: Transaction Authorization and Delegation
>
> I=E2=80=99m not a big fan of either of those because I=E2=80=99m not big =
on cute and pronounceable acronyms, personally. I could live with =E2=80=9C=
TRADE=E2=80=9D though if there was a groundswell for it.
>
>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>
>
> On Apr 13, 2020, at 7:37 PM, Mike Jones   wrote:
>
> The normal computer science use of the term =E2=80=9Ctransaction=E2=80=9D=
 involves a proposed state change that either commits or aborts atomically.=
  That doesn=E2=80=99t match your description of the term below.  It also d=
oesn=E2=80=99t match the RFC 4949   definition=
 of the term (which does match my paraphrase above).  It reads:
>
>    $ transaction
>       1. (I) A unit of interaction between an external entity and a
>       system, or between components within a system, that involves a
>       series of system actions or events.
>
>       2. (O) "A discrete event between user and systems that supports a
>       business or programmatic purpose." [M0404  ]
>
>       Tutorial: To maintain secure state, transactions need to be
>       processed coherently and reliably. Usually, they need to be
>       designed to be atomic, consistent, isolated, and durable [Gray  ]:
>       -  "Atomic": All actions and events that comprise the transaction
>          are guaranteed to be completed successfully, or else the result
>          is as if none at all were executed.
>       -  "Consistent": The transaction satisfies correctness constraints
>          defined for the data that is being processed.
>       -  "Isolated": If two transactions are performed concurrently,
>          they do not interfere with each other, and it appears as though
>          the system performs one at a time.
>       -  "Durable": System state and transaction semantics survive
>          system failures.
>
> We shouldn=E2=80=99t try to invent a new meaning for the well-established=
 computer science term =E2=80=9Ctransaction=E2=80=9D in this working group.
>
>                                                        -- Mike
>
> P.S.  On a personal note, I really continue to miss Jim Gray.
>
> From: Justin Richer  
> Sent: Monday, April 13, 2020 4:27 PM
> To: Mike Jones  
> Cc: Vijay IETF  ; Matthew A. =
Miller  ;=
 Lee McGovern  ; Amanje=
ev Sethi  ; txauth@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Txauth] WG name: TxAuth? XAuth? Something else?
>
> On Apr 13, 2020, at 6:25 PM, Mike Jones  > wrote:
>
> Because the proposed starting points and likely outcomes aren=E2=80=99t t=
ransactional, I believe we shouldn=E2=80=99t confuse people by calling it T=
ransactional Authorization or using the abbreviation =E2=80=9CTx=E2=80=9D.
>
> I=E2=80=99m not sure what you mean. XYZ, as a starting point, is transact=
ional by design. I have given several talks on this topic, which you have a=
ttended. And in fact I would argue that the entire intent-registration patt=
ern, upon which both proposals are predicated, is transactional in nature a=
s well. As Dick was kind enough to pull the definition earlier in this thre=
ad, let me restate that definition:
>
>               a communicative action or activity involving two parties or=
 things that reciprocally affect or influence each other
>
> The entire act of getting the delegation to occur is a transaction betwee=
n the client and the AS (or equivalent component). The client begins the tr=
ansaction by talking to the AS, the AS continues the transaction by optiona=
lly getting the user involved, and the client continues the transaction whe=
n the interaction portion is completed, and so on. While this is intentiona=
lly built into XYZ, I would argue that even XAuth has this feature.
>
> So with that in mind, I don=E2=80=99t think it=E2=80=99s misleading or co=
nfusing at all. I=E2=80=99m not sure why people keep referring to it as =E2=
=80=9Cincorrect=E2=80=9D.
>
> Yes, there are other definitions of =E2=80=9Ctransaction=E2=80=9D that do=
 not apply =E2=80=94 words have more than one definition, and that happens.
>
> Since you asked, I will gladly offer my specific thoughts on your suggest=
ions.
>
>
>
> I haven=E2=80=99t heard responses to any of these brainstormed names yet:
> Disaggregated Authorization (DisAuth)
> Componentized Authorization (CompAuth)
>
> Neither of these capture what=E2=80=99s different about this. The compone=
nts are largely the same as they were in OAuth 2, UMA, OIDC, SAML, and rela=
ted protocols. The componentization isn=E2=80=99t the new thing here, so I =
don=E2=80=99t think these are that good a fit.
>
>
>
> Build-Your-Own Authorization (BYOAuth)
> Do-It-Yourself Authorization (DIYAuth)
>
> These aren=E2=80=99t really what we=E2=80=99re after at all. In fact, the=
 proposed charter is specifically about building a protocol instead of a fr=
amework, so either of these are very misleading.
>
>
>
> Refactored Authorization (ReAuth or RefAuth)
>
> This doesn=E2=80=99t offer any description of what=E2=80=99s gone on here=
. Refactored from what? Additionally  I don=E2=80=99t believe this name flo=
ws naturally from the proposed shortenings.  =E2=80=9CReAuth=E2=80=9D sound=
s like =E2=80=9CReAuthorization=E2=80=9D and/or =E2=80=9CReAuthentication=
=E2=80=9D, where as =E2=80=9CRefAuth=E2=80=9D sounds like it should stand f=
or =E2=80=9Creference=E2=80=9D instead of =E2=80=9Crefactored=E2=80=9D.
>
>
>
>
> To those I=E2=80=99ll now add:
> Alternative Authorization Protocol (AAP)
> Alternative Authorization (AltAuth)
> Reimagined Authorization (ReAuth)
>
> All of these are problematic for the same reason that =E2=80=9CNewAuth=E2=
=80=9D or =E2=80=9CNgAuth=E2=80=9D are. They just say =E2=80=9Cit=E2=80=99s=
 new=E2=80=9D and don=E2=80=99t say anything about it. And if we=E2=80=99re=
 successful, it won=E2=80=99t be =E2=80=9Cnew" while people are still using=
 it.
>
>
>
> Back-end Based Authorization (BBAuth)
>
> This is a start in concept, as it starts to talk about what=E2=80=99s dif=
ferent, but =E2=80=9CBBAuth=E2=80=9D is already something =E2=80=94 one of =
the predecessors of OAuth 1.0 was =E2=80=9CBBAuth=E2=80=9D from Flickr (lat=
er Yahoo). Also, note that in this historical context, the expansion is =E2=
=80=9CBrowser Based Auth=E2=80=9D, which could happen here again. As one of=
 the key aspects of what people are interested is decoupling from the brows=
er, we don=E2=80=99t want to have echos of that, even if the name weren=E2=
=80=99t already historically taken.
>
>
>
>
> And for fun, there=E2=80=99s still:
> Dismembered Authorization
> Plus:
> ZZAuth =E2=80=93 The Protocol
>
> Please, no.
>
>
>
> Surely others must have other good ideas than don=E2=80=99t use the misle=
ading term =E2=80=9CTransactional=E2=80=9D or its abbreviation =E2=80=9CTx=
=E2=80=9D.
>
>
> Again, as above, this is not misleading. That said, if there=E2=80=99s a =
better idea, I=E2=80=99m open to it. But for all of the reasons I keep repe=
ating now, TxAuth is decent and I haven=E2=80=99t seen a better one.
>
> Thanks,
>
>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>
>
>                                                        Cheers,
>                                                        -- Mike
>
> From: Txauth  > On Behalf Of Justin Richer
> Sent: Monday, April 13, 2020 11:43 AM
> To: Vijay IETF  >
> Cc: Matthew A. Miller  >; Lee McGovern  >; Amanjeev Sethi  >; txauth@ietf.org  
> Subject: Re: [Txauth] WG name: TxAuth? XAuth? Something else?
>
> I appreciate the brainstorming of names here.
>
> I dislike names like =E2=80=9CNgAuth=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9CYAAP=E2=80=9D o=
r the like because they rely on this being =E2=80=9Cnew=E2=80=9D and it=E2=
=80=99s only =E2=80=9Cnew=E2=80=9D right now. If we=E2=80=99re successful a=
nd people are still talking about it in ten years then it won=E2=80=99t be =
new anymore and the name will just seem absurd.
>
> While we=E2=80=99re at it, we really can=E2=80=99t use =E2=80=9CXAuth=E2=
=80=9D because it=E2=80=99s already been something for 30 years: the X11 au=
thentication command: https://www.x.org/archive/X11R6.8.1/doc/xauth.1.html =
  
>
> My project=E2=80=99s name =E2=80=9CXYZ=E2=80=9D would also be a bad name =
for a lasting protocol, as it=E2=80=99s too generic on its own.
>
> I still argue that we should call the protocol and the working group TxAu=
th. Not only do I think the underlying =E2=80=9Ctransactional authorization=
=E2=80=9D aspect is a key difference from what=E2=80=99s come before (the n=
ature of which I=E2=80=99ve described many, many times on this list), if yo=
u go and search for the term =E2=80=9Ctxauth=E2=80=9D you end up back at th=
is mailing list and the posts that people have made about it.
>
>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>
>
>
> On Apr 10, 2020, at 9:22 AM, Vijay IETF  > wrote:
>
> Assuming we are still at it...
>
> NgAuth (Next Gen Auth).
>
> On Tue, 24 Mar 2020 at 19:00, Amanjeev Sethi  > wrote:
> TOI (as in french you): TxAuth's OAuth's Improvement
>
> On Tue, Mar 24, 2020, at 4:25 AM, Lee McGovern wrote:
>
> YAAP
>
> Yet another authX protocol
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Txauth  > On Behalf Of Matthew A. Miller
> Sent: Monday, March 23, 2020 3:06 PM
> To: txauth@ietf.org  
> Subject: Re: [Txauth] WG name: TxAuth? XAuth? Something else?
>
> On 20/03/23 13:49, Brian Campbell wrote:
>
> YAAAAS - Yet Another Authorization And Authentication Specification
>
>
> +1
>
>
> - m&m
>
> Matthew A. Miller
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 1:39 PM Mike Jones
>  @dmarc..ietf.org  
>  <=
mailto:40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org> <40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org>>> w=
rote:
>
>     In brainstorming mode=E2=80=A6____
>
>       * Disaggregated Authorization (DisAuth)____
>       * Componentized Authorization (CompAuth)____
>       * Build-Your-Own Authorization (BYOAuth)____
>       * Do-It-Yourself Authorization (DIYAuth)____
>       * Refactored Authorization (ReAuth or RefAuth)____
>
>     __ __
>
>     And for fun=E2=80=A6____
>
>       * Dismembered Authorization____
>
>     __ __
>
>                                                            -- Mike____
>
>     __ __
>
>     *From:* Txauth  
>       >> *On Behalf Of *David Skai=
fe
>     *Sent:* Saturday, March 21, 2020 11:22 AM
>     *To:* Justin Richer     >>
>     *Cc:* Yaron Sheffer  
>       >>; txauth@ietf.org  
>       >; Dick Hardt  
>       >>
>     *Subject:* Re: [Txauth] WG name: TxAuth? XAuth? Something
> else?____
>
>     __ __
>
>     I think we're saying the same thing with regards to the working
>     group name - I was saying it *isn't* particularly important in
>     comparison to the name of the protocol (which obviously is very
>     important).____
>
>     __ __
>
>     On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 6:18 PM Justin Richer  
>       >> wrote:____
>
>         I disagree on the working group name being super important.
>         Nobody knows that the OAuth WG is actually named =E2=80=9CThe Web
>         Authorization Protocol Working Group=E2=80=9D, and nobody cares._=
___
>
>         __ __
>
>         My proposal is that we name the protocol we work on =E2=80=9CTxAu=
th=E2=80=9D
>         (and keep the mailing list), and that we name the working group
>         something like =E2=80=9CNext Generation Web Authorization Protoco=
l=E2=80=9D to
>         say what we=E2=80=99re doing.____
>
>         __ __
>
>          -- Justin____
>
>
>
>         ____
>
>             On Mar 21, 2020, at 2:08 PM, David Skaife
>              
>               >> wrote:____
>
>             __ __
>
>             Just to throw in another suggestion, to address Yaron's
>             point about some people mistakenly thinking that "Auth"
>             stands for authentication rather than authorization, how
>             about naming the working group *AuthZ*____
>
>             Nice and simple, and it makes it clear what the group is
>             focused on.
>
>             I think the name of the actual protocol that we produce is
>             far, far more important that the name of the working group -
>             and the name of that protocol doesn't need to correlate to
>             the WG name. Also, we have much more time before we need to
>             decide on the name of that protocol, even if the
>             initial draft documents that we produce end up using a
>             placeholder name.____
>
>             __ __
>
>             On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 5:44 PM Justin Richer
>               <=
mailto:jricher@mit.edu   >> wrote:____
>
>                 As you can see in the email you replied to, that is not
>                 even close to what I said. I believe it is a
>                 transaction, and therefore, I do not agree that it=E2=80=
=99s not
>                 a transaction.____
>
>                 __ __
>
>                 But if we take =E2=80=9CTransactional=E2=80=9D out of the=
 WG title, I
>                 won=E2=80=99t be offended. If we just call it =E2=80=9CTx=
Auth=E2=80=9D without
>                 expansion, then that=E2=80=99s fine.____
>
>                 __ __
>
>                 I do not like calling it =E2=80=9CXAuth=E2=80=9D. The ter=
m =E2=80=9CTAuth" was
>                 floated during naming the list, but rejected because
>                 (among other reasons) it would likely be awkwardly
>                 pronounced as =E2=80=9Ctowth=E2=80=9D or something. TxAut=
h reads as =E2=80=9CTee
>                 - ex - oth=E2=80=9D more naturally, which was the intent.=
 ____
>
>                 __ __
>
>                 So how about we take a page from the OAuth working group
>                 and name it:____
>
>                 __ __
>
>                 TxAuth - Next Generation Web Authorization Protocol
>                 Working Group____
>
>                 __ __
>
>                 __ __
>
>                  =E2=80=94 Justin____
>
>
>
>                 ____
>
>                     On Mar 21, 2020, at 1:15 PM, Dick Hardt
>                      <=
dick.hardt@gmail.com>  <=
mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com> >>
>                     wrote:____
>
>                     __ __
>
>                     To clarify -- you agree it is not a transaction, and
>                     we will take the word transaction out of the WG
>                     title?____
>
>                     __ __
>
>                     On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 5:53 PM Justin Richer
>                         <=
jricher@mit.edu>>>
> wrote:____
>
>                         Dick, thanks for pulling the definitions
> up:____
>
>                         __ __
>
>                         > a communicative action or activity involving
>                         two parties or things that reciprocally affect
>                         or influence each other____
>
>                         __ __
>
>                         This is the kind of thing that I had in mind.
>                         The client and the AS are in a conversation over
>                         time that each one contributes to and each
>                         changes. ____
>
>                         __ __
>
>                         Also =E2=80=94 we can just as easily decide that
>                         =E2=80=9CTxAuth=E2=80=9D doesn=E2=80=99t stand fo=
r =E2=80=9CTransactional Auth=E2=80=9D
>                         much the same way we decided that the =E2=80=9CO=
=E2=80=9D in
>                         =E2=80=9COAuth=E2=80=9D doesn=E2=80=99t stand for=
 =E2=80=9COpen=E2=80=9D anymore. ____
>
>                         __ __
>
>                         None of the arguments below in favor of XAuth
>                         have made me like that name better. If it=E2=80=
=99s just
>                         a =E2=80=9Cplaceholder=E2=80=9D name, then why co=
me up with
>                         something new?____
>
>                         __ __
>
>                          =E2=80=94 Justin____
>
>
>
>                         ____
>
>                             On Mar 20, 2020, at 3:32 PM, Dick Hardt
>                              
>                               >> wrote:____
>
>                             __ __
>
>                             __ __
>
>                             __ __
>
>                             __ __
>
>                             not a transaction - there are multiple
>                             transactions____
>
>                             __ __
>
>                             backchannel innovation is combination of
>                             here is who I am, and here is what I want to
>                             do____
>
>                             __ __
>
>                             __ __
>
>                             childhood trauma therapy group____
>
>                             __ __
>
>                             __ __
>
>                             __ __
>
>                             On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 6:56 PM Justin
>                             Richer  
>                               >> wrote:____
>
>                                 Yes, naming things is hard =E2=80=94 but =
I still
>                                 believe in the name TxAuth. We=E2=80=99re=
 moving
>                                 beyond OAuth, and taking the process of
>                                 getting an authorization delegated to
>                                 the client software as a multi-step,
>                                 multi-party transaction is, I believe,
>                                 the key insight that=E2=80=99s letting us=
 move
>                                 beyond OAuth=E2=80=99s limitations here. =
It=E2=80=99s
>                                 not just about going to the AS first =E2=
=80=94
>                                 we had that in OAuth 1 and we=E2=80=99re
>                                 patching that into OAuth 2 with PAR.. I
>                                 really think it=E2=80=99s about the trans=
action
>                                 at the core.. ____
>
>                             __ __
>
>                             OAuth 2.0 had multi-step, multi-party.
>                             TxAuth extends that.____
>
>                             __ __
>
>                             I think the big shift is going to the AS.
>                             This enables the request to be richer with
>                             JSON, instead of name/value pairs parameters
>                             in a URI. It allows the client and AS to
>                             negotiate, and to short circuit having to
>                             redirect the user to the AS. PAR does some
>                             of this, but it is constrained by having to
>                             do it in the OAuth 2.0 context.____
>
>                             __ __
>
>                             My concern is that the protocol is MUCH MORE
>                             than a transaction. While the initial
>                             interaction between client, AS, user and RO
>                             is a transaction. The protocol also covers
>                             the client and RS interactions. The access
>                             token refreshes. Access token revocation.
>                             Access token introspection. As described in
>                             the charter, there is a whole lifecycle,
>                             that consists of multiple
> transactions.____
>
>                             __ __
>
>                             Fromhttps://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionar=
y/transaction:____   
>
>                             __ __
>
>
>                                 Definition of /transaction/____
>
>                             *1a**: *something transacted
>                               >/especially/ *: *an
>                             exchange or transfer
>                               > of
>                             goods, services, or
>                             fundselectronic /transactions/____
>
>                             *b: transactions*/ plural/ *: *the often
>                             published record of the meeting of a society
>                             or association____
>
>                             *2a**: *an act, process, or instance
>                             of transacting
>
>  <=
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transacting> >____
>
>                             *b**: *a communicative action or activity
>                             involving two parties or things that
>                             reciprocally affect or influence each
> other____
>
>                             __ __
>
>                             Calling the protocol a transaction will
>                             confusing to people.____
>
>                              ____
>
>                                 __ __
>
>                                 Having come of age in the 1990=E2=80=99s,=
 I have
>                                 particular dislike for XAuth. It sounds
>                                 too =E2=80=9CX-TREME=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=
=9CX-CITING=E2=80=9D, and if you
>                                 read either of those with a growling
>                                 yell in your head then you know exactly
>                                 what I=E2=80=99m talking about.____
>
>                             __ __
>
>                             In case you are confused, this is not a
>                             childhood trauma support group.  :)____
>
>                             __ __
>
>                             Unlike "X-TREME" or "X-CITING", XAuth is
>                             using the "X" as a placeholder. X-Men, Xbox,
>                             X-Factor, X-files. ____
>
>                             __ __
>
>                             https://www.businessinsider.com/the-indisputa=
ble-power-of-brand-x-2012   
> -4____
>
>                             __ __
>
>                             https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/3=
58181/whats-the-purpose-o   
> f-using-letter-x-or-x-as-a-suffix-in-brand-names____
>
>                             __ __
>
>                              ____
>
>                                 And to Dick=E2=80=99s rationale for the n=
ame
>                                 below, I absolutely do NOT see this work
>                                 as =E2=80=9COAuth with all the extra feat=
ures=E2=80=9D.
>                                 I think that does a disservice to the
>                                 kind of change we have an opportunity to
>                                 make here. ____
>
>                             __ __
>
>                             From the charter ____
>
>                             __ __
>
>                                 "It will expand upon the uses cases
>                                 currently supported by OAuth 2.0 and
>                                 OpenID Connect (itself an extension of
>                                 OAuth 2.0)"____
>
>                             __ __
>
>                             Which sounds pretty similar to =E2=80=9COAuth=
 with
>                             all the extra features=E2=80=9D____
>
>                             __ __
>
>                             While I think XAuth captures what we are
>                             doing, a placeholder name would be
>                             preferable to an incorrect descriptive name
>                             such as TxAuth.____
>
>                             __ __
>
>                             For example, XYZ is a good placeholder name.
>                             Or XYZAuth. Let's not mislead people.____
>
>                              ____
>
>                                 __ __
>
>                                  =E2=80=94 Justin____
>
>
>
>                                 ____
>
>                                     On Mar 16, 2020, at 7:04 PM, Dick
>                                     Hardt  
>                                       >>
>                                     wrote:____
>
>                                     __ __
>
>                                     Hello everyone____
>
>                                     __ __
>
>                                     I prompted a thread around the name
>                                     of the protocol a while back:____
>
>                                     __ __
>
>                                     https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg=
/txauth/ZVQVbHt4ADqehKrBDXOrTr_s_   
> wc/____
>
>                                     __ __
>
>                                     As Justin stated "naming is
> hard"____
>
>                                     __ __
>
>                                     Wearing my marketing hat I want to
>                                     ensure that the name will be
>                                     perceived properly in the broader
>                                     community.____
>
>                                     __ __
>
>                                     A recent example that comes to mind
>                                     are the privacy related works on the
>                                     browser storage API. Given that
>                                     name, one would think that it is
>                                     local storage. It is actually about
>                                     browser cookies.____
>
>                                     __ __
>
>                                     Justin discussed his reasons for
>                                     TxAuth in the thread above (and I'm
>                                     sure in other places)____
>
>                                     __ __
>
>                                     I chose XAuth in my draft to reflect
>                                     the eXtensibility goal that we have
>                                     over OAuth -- and XAuth is OAuth but
>                                     with an X to reflect all the extra
>                                     features. =3D)____
>
>                                     __ __
>
>                                     Other suggestions?____
>
>                                     __ __
>
>                                     This will be an agenda item in the
>                                     BoF -- but the name will NOT be an
>                                     open discussion item -- we will
>                                     summarize what has been discussed on
>                                     the list and perhaps do a poll of
>                                     options presented unless consensus
>                                     is obvious from this thread.____
>
>                                     __ __
>
>                                     /Dick____
>
>                                     __ __
>
>                                     __ __
>
>                                     __ __
>
>                                     __ __
>
>                                     __ __
>
>                                     =E1=90=A7____
>
>                                 __ __
>
>                         __ __
>
>                 __ __
>
>                 --
>                 Txauth mailing list
>                 Txauth@ietf.org     >
>                 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth____   
>
>         __ __
>
>     --
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>     Txauth@ietf.org     >
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>
>
>
> --
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    I agree with George.=C2=A0

    +1 on TRADE.=


    BR,
    Bjorn


    On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 8:54 AM George Fletcher &=
lt;gffletch=3D40aol.com@dmarc.i=
etf.org> wrote:
    
 =20
   =20
 =20
  
    
    Personally I like TRADE as the words clearly identify what the
    protocol is about. For me, the protocol is about establishing
    Authorization and Delegation for use in multiple transactions over
    time.
    
    
    
    
    On 4/13/20 9:24 PM, Justin Richer
      wrote:
    
    
    
    
    
      
    Mike, thanks for pulling up the definition. I agree we don=E2=80=
=99t want to redefine a well-used term, but I disagree that this is any att=
empt to redefine the well-used term here; but instead I see us applying it =
in a way that is consistent with the design goals of at least one of the in=
put documents (XYZ) and I would argue with the core tenets of the solution =
space that we=E2=80=99re looking into.=20

While the definition that I quoted from Dick below is the best fit, I still=
 think that the units below are also appropriate. You begin the transaction=
 when the client starts things off. The transaction ends when the token is =
issued. The token is the result of the transaction. While it=E2=80=99s not =
a perfect 1:1 mapping, since we=E2=80=99re talking about a multi-party prot=
ocol and not the fundamental definition here,=20

And I think with all of this argument it=E2=80=99s important to point out t=
hat I=E2=80=99ve been using an adjective form the whole time: Transactional=
 Authorization. It=E2=80=99s an authorization that has aspects and componen=
ts and artifacts of a transaction. That doesn=E2=80=99t mean that this prot=
ocol is a transaction in every aspect. Nor is it, I would argue, authorizat=
ion in every aspect. Just like =E2=80=9Cidentity=E2=80=9D covers many, many=
 things, so do these terms, and I think we=E2=80=99re honestly hitting enou=
gh of them for it to make sense, still.

I=E2=80=99m still fine with a *better* name if there is one to be had. Nami=
ng things is hard.

For some context, these are a few of the names that Roman and I tossed arou=
nd when we came up with TxAuth for the list name six months ago:

	TRAP: Transaction Authorization Protocol

	TRADE: Transaction Authorization and Delegation

I=E2=80=99m not a big fan of either of those because I=E2=80=99m not big on=
 cute and pronounceable acronyms, personally. I could live with =E2=80=9CTR=
ADE=E2=80=9D though if there was a groundswell for it.

 =E2=80=94 Justin


    
      
    
        
    On Apr 13, 2020, at 7:37 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com&=
gt; wrote:

The normal computer science use of the term =E2=80=9Ctransaction=E2=80=9D i=
nvolves a proposed state change that either commits or aborts atomically.  =
That doesn=E2=80=99t match your description of the term below.  It also doe=
sn=E2=80=99t match the RFC 4949 <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4949> definition of the term (w=
hich does match my paraphrase above).  It reads:
=20
   $ transaction
      1. (I) A unit of interaction between an external entity and a
      system, or between components within a system, that involves a
      series of system actions or events.
=20
      2. (O) "A discrete event between user and systems that supports =
a
      business or programmatic purpose." [M0404 <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc494=
9#ref-M0404>]
=20
      Tutorial: To maintain secure state, transactions need to be
      processed coherently and reliably. Usually, they need to be
      designed to be atomic, consistent, isolated, and durable [Gray <https://tools.ietf.=
org/html/rfc4949#ref-Gray>]:
      -  "Atomic": All actions and events that comprise the trans=
action
         are guaranteed to be completed successfully, or else the result
         is as if none at all were executed.
      -  "Consistent": The transaction satisfies correctness cons=
traints
         defined for the data that is being processed.
      -  "Isolated": If two transactions are performed concurrent=
ly,
         they do not interfere with each other, and it appears as though
         the system performs one at a time.
      -  "Durable": System state and transaction semantics surviv=
e
         system failures.
=20
We shouldn=E2=80=99t try to invent a new meaning for the well-established c=
omputer science term =E2=80=9Ctransaction=E2=80=9D in this working group.
=20
                                                       -- Mike
=20
P.S.  On a personal note, I really continue to miss Jim Gray.
=20
From: Justin Richer &l=
t;jricher@mit.edu>=20
Sent: Monday, April 13, 2020 4:27 PM
To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
Cc: Vijay IETF &l=
t;vijay.ietf@gmail.com>; Matthew A. Miller <linuxwolf+ietf@outer-planes=
.net>; Lee McGovern <Lee_McGovern@swissre.com>; Amanjeev Sethi <aj@amanjeev.com>; =
txauth@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Txauth] WG name: TxAuth? XAuth? Something else?
=20
On Apr 13, 2020, at 6:25 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com <mailto:Michae=
l.Jones@microsoft.com>> wrote:
=20
Because the proposed starting points and likely outcomes aren=E2=80=99t tra=
nsactional, I believe we shouldn=E2=80=99t confuse people by calling it Tra=
nsactional Authorization or using the abbreviation =E2=80=9CTx=E2=80=9D.
=20
I=E2=80=99m not sure what you mean. XYZ, as a starting point, is transactio=
nal by design. I have given several talks on this topic, which you have att=
ended. And in fact I would argue that the entire intent-registration patter=
n, upon which both proposals are predicated, is transactional in nature as =
well. As Dick was kind enough to pull the definition earlier in this thread=
, let me restate that definition:
=20
              a communicative action or activity involving two parties or t=
hings that reciprocally affect or influence each other
=20
The entire act of getting the delegation to occur is a transaction between =
the client and the AS (or equivalent component). The client begins the tran=
saction by talking to the AS, the AS continues the transaction by optionall=
y getting the user involved, and the client continues the transaction when =
the interaction portion is completed, and so on. While this is intentionall=
y built into XYZ, I would argue that even XAuth has this feature.
=20
So with that in mind, I don=E2=80=99t think it=E2=80=99s misleading or conf=
using at all. I=E2=80=99m not sure why people keep referring to it as =E2=
=80=9Cincorrect=E2=80=9D.=20
=20
Yes, there are other definitions of =E2=80=9Ctransaction=E2=80=9D that do n=
ot apply =E2=80=94 words have more than one definition, and that happens.
=20
Since you asked, I will gladly offer my specific thoughts on your suggestio=
ns.


=20
I haven=E2=80=99t heard responses to any of these brainstormed names yet:
Disaggregated Authorization (DisAuth)
Componentized Authorization (CompAuth)
=20
Neither of these capture what=E2=80=99s different about this. The component=
s are largely the same as they were in OAuth 2, UMA, OIDC, SAML, and relate=
d protocols. The componentization isn=E2=80=99t the new thing here, so I do=
n=E2=80=99t think these are that good a fit.


=20
Build-Your-Own Authorization (BYOAuth)
Do-It-Yourself Authorization (DIYAuth)
=20
These aren=E2=80=99t really what we=E2=80=99re after at all. In fact, the p=
roposed charter is specifically about building a protocol instead of a fram=
ework, so either of these are very misleading.


=20
Refactored Authorization (ReAuth or RefAuth)
=20
This doesn=E2=80=99t offer any description of what=E2=80=99s gone on here. =
Refactored from what? Additionally  I don=E2=80=99t believe this name flows=
 naturally from the proposed shortenings.  =E2=80=9CReAuth=E2=80=9D sounds =
like =E2=80=9CReAuthorization=E2=80=9D and/or =E2=80=9CReAuthentication=E2=
=80=9D, where as =E2=80=9CRefAuth=E2=80=9D sounds like it should stand for =
=E2=80=9Creference=E2=80=9D instead of =E2=80=9Crefactored=E2=80=9D.


=20
=20
To those I=E2=80=99ll now add:
Alternative Authorization Protocol (AAP)
Alternative Authorization (AltAuth)
Reimagined Authorization (ReAuth)
=20
All of these are problematic for the same reason that =E2=80=9CNewAuth=E2=
=80=9D or =E2=80=9CNgAuth=E2=80=9D are. They just say =E2=80=9Cit=E2=80=99s=
 new=E2=80=9D and don=E2=80=99t say anything about it. And if we=E2=80=99re=
 successful, it won=E2=80=99t be =E2=80=9Cnew" while people are still =
using it.


=20
Back-end Based Authorization (BBAuth)
=20
This is a start in concept, as it starts to talk about what=E2=80=99s diffe=
rent, but =E2=80=9CBBAuth=E2=80=9D is already something =E2=80=94 one of th=
e predecessors of OAuth 1.0 was =E2=80=9CBBAuth=E2=80=9D from Flickr (later=
 Yahoo). Also, note that in this historical context, the expansion is =E2=
=80=9CBrowser Based Auth=E2=80=9D, which could happen here again. As one of=
 the key aspects of what people are interested is decoupling from the brows=
er, we don=E2=80=99t want to have echos of that, even if the name weren=E2=
=80=99t already historically taken.


=20
=20
And for fun, there=E2=80=99s still:
Dismembered Authorization
Plus:
ZZAuth =E2=80=93 The Protocol
=20
Please, no.


=20
Surely others must have other good ideas than don=E2=80=99t use the mislead=
ing term =E2=80=9CTransactional=E2=80=9D or its abbreviation =E2=80=9CTx=E2=
=80=9D.
=20
=20
Again, as above, this is not misleading. That said, if there=E2=80=99s a be=
tter idea, I=E2=80=99m open to it. But for all of the reasons I keep repeat=
ing now, TxAuth is decent and I haven=E2=80=99t seen a better one.
=20
Thanks,
=20
 =E2=80=94 Justin


                                                       Cheers,
                                                       -- Mike
=20
From: Txauth <txauth-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:txauth-bounces@ietf.org>> On Behalf O=
f Justin Richer
Sent: Monday, April 13, 2020 11:43 AM
To: Vijay IETF <vijay.ietf@gmail.com <mailto:vijay.ietf@gmail.com>>
Cc: Matthew A. Miller <linuxwolf+ietf@outer-planes.net <mailto:linuxwolf+ietf=
@outer-planes.net>>; Lee McGovern <Lee_McGovern@swissre.com <mailto:Lee_McGovern@=
swissre.com>>; Amanjeev Sethi <aj@amanjeev.com <mailto:aj@amanjeev.com>>; txauth@ietf.org <mailto:txauth@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Txauth] WG name: TxAuth? XAuth? Something else?
=20
I appreciate the brainstorming of names here.=20
=20
I dislike names like =E2=80=9CNgAuth=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9CYAAP=E2=80=9D or =
the like because they rely on this being =E2=80=9Cnew=E2=80=9D and it=E2=80=
=99s only =E2=80=9Cnew=E2=80=9D right now. If we=E2=80=99re successful and =
people are still talking about it in ten years then it won=E2=80=99t be new=
 anymore and the name will just seem absurd.=20
=20
While we=E2=80=99re at it, we really can=E2=80=99t use =E2=80=9CXAuth=E2=80=
=9D because it=E2=80=99s already been something for 30 years: the X11 authe=
ntication command: https://www.x.org/archive/X11R6.8.1/doc/xauth.1.html <https://www.x.org/a=
rchive/X11R6.8.1/doc/xauth.1.html>
=20
My project=E2=80=99s name =E2=80=9CXYZ=E2=80=9D would also be a bad name fo=
r a lasting protocol, as it=E2=80=99s too generic on its own.=20
=20
I still argue that we should call the protocol and the working group TxAuth=
. Not only do I think the underlying =E2=80=9Ctransactional authorization=
=E2=80=9D aspect is a key difference from what=E2=80=99s come before (the n=
ature of which I=E2=80=99ve described many, many times on this list), if yo=
u go and search for the term =E2=80=9Ctxauth=E2=80=9D you end up back at th=
is mailing list and the posts that people have made about it.=20
=20
 =E2=80=94 Justin



On Apr 10, 2020, at 9:22 AM, Vijay IETF <vijay.ietf@gmail.com <mailto:vijay.ietf@gmail.com>&=
gt; wrote:
=20
Assuming we are still at it...
=20
NgAuth (Next Gen Auth).
=20
On Tue, 24 Mar 2020 at 19:00, Amanjeev Sethi <aj@amanjeev.com <mailto:aj@amanjeev.com>> wrote:
TOI (as in french you): TxAuth's OAuth's Improvement

On Tue, Mar 24, 2020, at 4:25 AM, Lee McGovern wrote:

    
        
    
          
    YAAP=20

Yet another authX protocol


-----Original Message-----
From: Txauth <txauth-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:txauth-bounces@ietf.org>> On Behalf O=
f Matthew A. Miller
Sent: Monday, March 23, 2020 3:06 PM
To: txauth@ietf.org <mailto:txauth@ie=
tf.org>
Subject: Re: [Txauth] WG name: TxAuth? XAuth? Something else?

On 20/03/23 13:49, Brian Campbell wrote:

    
          
    
            
    YAAAAS - Yet Another Authorization And Authentication Spec=
ification


    
          
    
          
    +1


- m&m

Matthew A. Miller


    
          
    
            
    On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 1:39 PM Mike Jones=20
<Michael.Jones=3D40=
microsoft.com <http://40microsoft.=
com/>@dmarc..ietf.org<=
/a> <http://ietf.org/>
<mai=
lto:40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org <mailto:40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org&g=
t;>> wrote:

    In brainstorming mode=E2=80=A6____

      * Disaggregated Authorization (DisAuth)____
      * Componentized Authorization (CompAuth)____
      * Build-Your-Own Authorization (BYOAuth)____
      * Do-It-Yourself Authorization (DIYAuth)____
      * Refactored Authorization (ReAuth or RefAuth)____

    __ __

    And for fun=E2=80=A6____

      * Dismembered Authorization____

    __ __

                                                           -- Mike____

    __ __

    *From:* Txauth <txauth-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:txauth-bounces@ietf.org>
    <mailto=
:txauth-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:txauth-bounces@ietf.org>>> *On Behal=
f Of *David Skaife
    *Sent:* Saturday, March 21, 2020 11:22 AM
    *To:* Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu <mailto:jricher@mit.edu> <mailto:jricher@mit.edu <mailto:jricher@mit.edu>>>
    *Cc:* Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com <mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>
    <mailto:y=
aronf.ietf@gmail.com <mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>>>; txauth@ietf.org <mailto:txauth@ietf.org>
    <mailto:txauth@=
ietf.org <mailt=
o:txauth@ietf.org>>; Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>
    <mailto:di=
ck.hardt@gmail.com <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>>>
    *Subject:* Re: [Txauth] WG name: TxAuth? XAuth? Something=20
else?____

    __ __

    I think we're saying the same thing with regards to the working
    group name - I was saying it *isn't* particularly important in
    comparison to the name of the protocol (which obviously is very
    important).____

    __ __

    On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 6:18 PM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu <mailto:jricher@mit.edu>
    <mailto:jricher=
@mit.edu <mailt=
o:jricher@mit.edu>>> wrote:____

        I disagree on the working group name being super important.
        Nobody knows that the OAuth WG is actually named =E2=80=9CThe Web
        Authorization Protocol Working Group=E2=80=9D, and nobody cares.___=
_

        __ __

        My proposal is that we name the protocol we work on =E2=80=9CTxAuth=
=E2=80=9D
        (and keep the mailing list), and that we name the working group
        something like =E2=80=9CNext Generation Web Authorization Protocol=
=E2=80=9D to
        say what we=E2=80=99re doing.____

        __ __

         -- Justin____



        ____

            On Mar 21, 2020, at 2:08 PM, David Skaife
            <blue.ringed.octopus.guy@gmail.com <mailto:blue.ringed.octopu=
s.guy@gmail.com>
            <mailto:blue.ringed.octopus.guy@gmail.com <mailto:blue.ringed=
.octopus.guy@gmail.com>>> wrote:____

            __ __

            Just to throw in another suggestion, to address Yaron's
            point about some people mistakenly thinking that "Auth&quo=
t;
            stands for authentication rather than authorization, how
            about naming the working group *AuthZ*____

            Nice and simple, and it makes it clear what the group is
            focused on.

            I think the name of the actual protocol that we produce is
            far, far more important that the name of the working group -
            and the name of that protocol doesn't need to correlate to
            the WG name. Also, we have much more time before we need to
            decide on the name of that protocol, even if the
            initial draft documents that we produce end up using a
            placeholder name.____

            __ __

            On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 5:44 PM Justin Richer
            <jriche=
r@mit.edu <mail=
to:jricher@mit.edu> <mailto:jricher@mit.edu <mailto:jricher@mit.edu>>> wrote:____

                As you can see in the email you replied to, that is not
                even close to what I said. I believe it is a
                transaction, and therefore, I do not agree that it=E2=80=99=
s not
                a transaction.____

                __ __

                But if we take =E2=80=9CTransactional=E2=80=9D out of the W=
G title, I
                won=E2=80=99t be offended. If we just call it =E2=80=9CTxAu=
th=E2=80=9D without
                expansion, then that=E2=80=99s fine.____

                __ __

                I do not like calling it =E2=80=9CXAuth=E2=80=9D. The term =
=E2=80=9CTAuth" was
                floated during naming the list, but rejected because
                (among other reasons) it would likely be awkwardly
                pronounced as =E2=80=9Ctowth=E2=80=9D or something. TxAuth =
reads as =E2=80=9CTee
                - ex - oth=E2=80=9D more naturally, which was the intent. _=
___

                __ __

                So how about we take a page from the OAuth working group
                and name it:____

                __ __

                TxAuth - Next Generation Web Authorization Protocol
                Working Group____

                __ __

                __ __

                 =E2=80=94 Justin____



                ____

                    On Mar 21, 2020, at 1:15 PM, Dick Hardt
                    <dick.hardt@gmail.com <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com> <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com <=
a href=3D"mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank"><mailto:dick.ha=
rdt@gmail.com>>>
                    wrote:____

                    __ __

                    To clarify -- you agree it is not a transaction, and
                    we will take the word transaction out of the WG
                    title?____

                    __ __

                    On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 5:53 PM Justin Richer
                    <jricher@mit.edu =
<mailto:jricher@mit.edu> <mailto:jricher@mit.edu <mailto:jricher@mit.edu>>>=20
wrote:____

                        Dick, thanks for pulling the definitions=20
up:____

                        __ __

                        > a communicative action or activity involving
                        two parties or things that reciprocally affect
                        or influence each other____

                        __ __

                        This is the kind of thing that I had in mind.
                        The client and the AS are in a conversation over
                        time that each one contributes to and each
                        changes. ____

                        __ __

                        Also =E2=80=94 we can just as easily decide that
                        =E2=80=9CTxAuth=E2=80=9D doesn=E2=80=99t stand for =
=E2=80=9CTransactional Auth=E2=80=9D
                        much the same way we decided that the =E2=80=9CO=E2=
=80=9D in
                        =E2=80=9COAuth=E2=80=9D doesn=E2=80=99t stand for =
=E2=80=9COpen=E2=80=9D anymore. ____

                        __ __

                        None of the arguments below in favor of XAuth
                        have made me like that name better. If it=E2=80=99s=
 just
                        a =E2=80=9Cplaceholder=E2=80=9D name, then why come=
 up with
                        something new?____

                        __ __

                         =E2=80=94 Justin____



                        ____

                            On Mar 20, 2020, at 3:32 PM, Dick Hardt
                            <dick.hardt@gmail.com <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>
                            <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>>&g=
t; wrote:____

                            __ __

                            __ __

                            __ __

                            __ __

                            not a transaction - there are multiple
                            transactions____

                            __ __

                            backchannel innovation is combination of
                            here is who I am, and here is what I want to
                            do____

                            __ __

                            __ __

                            childhood trauma therapy group____

                            __ __

                            __ __

                            __ __

                            On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 6:56 PM Justin
                            Richer <jricher@mit.edu <mailto:jricher@mit.edu>
                            <mailto:jricher@mit.edu <mailto:jricher@mit.edu>>> wrote:____

                                Yes, naming things is hard =E2=80=94 but I =
still
                                believe in the name TxAuth. We=E2=80=99re m=
oving
                                beyond OAuth, and taking the process of
                                getting an authorization delegated to
                                the client software as a multi-step,
                                multi-party transaction is, I believe,
                                the key insight that=E2=80=99s letting us m=
ove
                                beyond OAuth=E2=80=99s limitations here. It=
=E2=80=99s
                                not just about going to the AS first =E2=80=
=94
                                we had that in OAuth 1 and we=E2=80=99re
                                patching that into OAuth 2 with PAR.. I
                                really think it=E2=80=99s about the transac=
tion
                                at the core.. ____

                            __ __

                            OAuth 2.0 had multi-step, multi-party.
                            TxAuth extends that.____

                            __ __

                            I think the big shift is going to the AS.
                            This enables the request to be richer with
                            JSON, instead of name/value pairs parameters
                            in a URI. It allows the client and AS to
                            negotiate, and to short circuit having to
                            redirect the user to the AS. PAR does some
                            of this, but it is constrained by having to
                            do it in the OAuth 2.0 context.____

                            __ __

                            My concern is that the protocol is MUCH MORE
                            than a transaction. While the initial
                            interaction between client, AS, user and RO
                            is a transaction. The protocol also covers
                            the client and RS interactions. The access
                            token refreshes. Access token revocation.
                            Access token introspection. As described in
                            the charter, there is a whole lifecycle,
                            that consists of multiple=20
transactions.____

                            __ __

                            From
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transaction:____ <https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transaction:____>

                            __ __


                                Definition of /transaction/____

                            *1a**: *something transacted
                            <https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transacte=
d <=
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transacted>>/especiall=
y/ *: *an
                            exchange or transfer
                            <https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transfer<=
/a> <http=
s://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transfer>> of
                            goods, services, or
                            fundselectronic /transactions/____

                            *b: transactions*/ plural/ *: *the often
                            published record of the meeting of a society
                            or association____

                            *2a**: *an act, process, or instance
                            of transacting
                           =20
<https=
://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transacting <https://www.merriam-webste=
r.com/dictionary/transacting>>____

                            *b**: *a communicative action or activity
                            involving two parties or things that
                            reciprocally affect or influence each=20
other____

                            __ __

                            Calling the protocol a transaction will
                            confusing to people.____

                             ____

                                __ __

                                Having come of age in the 1990=E2=80=99s, I=
 have
                                particular dislike for XAuth. It sounds
                                too =E2=80=9CX-TREME=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9C=
X-CITING=E2=80=9D, and if you
                                read either of those with a growling
                                yell in your head then you know exactly
                                what I=E2=80=99m talking about.____

                            __ __

                            In case you are confused, this is not a
                            childhood trauma support group.  :)____

                            __ __

                            Unlike "X-TREME" or "X-CITING&qu=
ot;, XAuth is
                            using the "X" as a placeholder. X-Men=
, Xbox,
                            X-Factor, X-files. ____

                            __ __

                           =20
https://www.businessinsider.com/the-indisputable-power-of-=
brand-x-2012 <https://www.businessinsider.com/the-i=
ndisputable-power-of-brand-x-2012>
-4____

                            __ __

                           =20
https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/358181/whats-the-pu=
rpose-o <https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/3581=
81/whats-the-purpose-o>
f-using-letter-x-or-x-as-a-suffix-in-brand-names____

                            __ __

                             ____

                                And to Dick=E2=80=99s rationale for the nam=
e
                                below, I absolutely do NOT see this work
                                as =E2=80=9COAuth with all the extra featur=
es=E2=80=9D.
                                I think that does a disservice to the
                                kind of change we have an opportunity to
                                make here. ____

                            __ __

                            From the charter ____

                            __ __

                                "It will expand upon the uses cases
                                currently supported by OAuth 2.0 and
                                OpenID Connect (itself an extension of
                                OAuth 2.0)"____

                            __ __

                            Which sounds pretty similar to =E2=80=9COAuth w=
ith
                            all the extra features=E2=80=9D____

                            __ __

                            While I think XAuth captures what we are
                            doing, a placeholder name would be
                            preferable to an incorrect descriptive name
                            such as TxAuth.____

                            __ __

                            For example, XYZ is a good placeholder name.
                            Or XYZAuth. Let's not mislead people.____

                             ____

                                __ __

                                 =E2=80=94 Justin____



                                ____

                                    On Mar 16, 2020, at 7:04 PM, Dick
                                    Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>
                                    <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com <mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>>>
                                    wrote:____

                                    __ __

                                    Hello everyone____

                                    __ __

                                    I prompted a thread around the name
                                    of the protocol a while back:____

                                    __ __

                                   =20
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/txauth/ZVQVbHt4ADqehKrBDXOrT=
r_s_ <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/txauth/ZVQVbHt4=
ADqehKrBDXOrTr_s_>
wc/____

                                    __ __

                                    As Justin stated "naming is=20
hard"____

                                    __ __

                                    Wearing my marketing hat I want to
                                    ensure that the name will be
                                    perceived properly in the broader
                                    community.____

                                    __ __

                                    A recent example that comes to mind
                                    are the privacy related works on the
                                    browser storage API. Given that
                                    name, one would think that it is
                                    local storage. It is actually about
                                    browser cookies.____

                                    __ __

                                    Justin discussed his reasons for
                                    TxAuth in the thread above (and I'm
                                    sure in other places)____

                                    __ __

                                    I chose XAuth in my draft to reflect
                                    the eXtensibility goal that we have
                                    over OAuth -- and XAuth is OAuth but
                                    with an X to reflect all the extra
                                    features. =3D)____

                                    __ __

                                    Other suggestions?____

                                    __ __

                                    This will be an agenda item in the
                                    BoF -- but the name will NOT be an
                                    open discussion item -- we will
                                    summarize what has been discussed on
                                    the list and perhaps do a poll of
                                    options presented unless consensus
                                    is obvious from this thread.____

                                    __ __

                                    /Dick____

                                    __ __

                                    __ __

                                    __ __

                                    __ __

                                    __ __

                                    =E1=90=A7____

                                __ __

                        __ __

                __ __

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From: Dick Hardt 
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 17:43:20 -0700
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Cc: Justin Richer , Amanjeev Sethi , Vijay IETF ,  Lee McGovern ,  "Matthew A. Miller" , "txauth@ietf.org" 
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Subject: Re: [Txauth] WG name: TxAuth? XAuth? Something else?
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--000000000000c7dd9d05a3d66ca5
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Some responses on the definition of Transaction, and my summary as chair on
where we are ...

On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 4:38 PM Mike Jones  wrote:

>
>
>
> We shouldn=E2=80=99t try to invent a new meaning for the well-established=
 computer
> science term =E2=80=9Ctransaction=E2=80=9D in this working group.
>

I think we would all agree that we should not be reinventing what a word
means. Justin: would you not agree with this?


>  As Dick was kind enough to pull the definition earlier in this thread,
> let me restate that definition:
>
>
>
>               *a communicative action or activity involving two parties
> or things that reciprocally affect or influence each other*
>

Assuming you still agree with this as the definition of a transaction, then
the charter is in conflict:

1)

... support authorizations scoped as narrowly as a single transaction ...


implies that the protocol is *for* authorization of a transaction, rather
than *being* a transaction

2)

The delegation process will be acted upon by multiple parties in the
protocol ...


indicates that there are more than two parties, in conflict with the
definition

3) It is not clear to me how this part of the definition

... reciprocally affect or influence each other


Is part of the charter.




>
>
> So with that in mind, I don=E2=80=99t think it=E2=80=99s misleading or co=
nfusing at all.
> I=E2=80=99m not sure why people keep referring to it as =E2=80=9Cincorrec=
t=E2=80=9D.
>


> Plus:
>
>    - ZZAuth =E2=80=93 The Protocol
>
>
>
> Please, no.
>

This comes across as an emotional response rather than a reasoned response.


>
>
> Surely others must have other good ideas than don=E2=80=99t use the misle=
ading
> term =E2=80=9CTransactional=E2=80=9D or its abbreviation =E2=80=9CTx=E2=
=80=9D.
>
>
>
>
>
> Again, as above, this is not misleading. That said, if there=E2=80=99s a =
better
> idea, I=E2=80=99m open to it.
>

Do you think it is your decision what the name is, or the group?


> But for all of the reasons I keep repeating now, TxAuth is decent and I
> haven=E2=80=99t seen a better one.
>
>
>

 Given the numerous alternative name proposals, and pushback on on
"transaction" being in the name, I don't think there is consensus on TxAuth
being the name

--000000000000c7dd9d05a3d66ca5
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


    Some responses on the definition of Transaction, and =
my summary as chair on where we are ...=C2=A0

    On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 4:38 P=
M Mike Jones <Michael.Jones=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
    






    

    


    

    =C2=A0<=
/u>
    

    We shouldn=E2=80=
=99t try to invent a new meaning for the well-established computer science =
term =E2=80=9Ctransaction=E2=80=9D in this working group.
    <=
/div>

    I think we would all agree that we sh=
ould not be reinventing what a word means. Justin: would you not agree with=
 this?
    =C2=A0
    

    =C2=A0As Dick was kind enough to pull the definition=
 earlier in this thread, let me restate that definition:
    

    

    =C2=A0
    

    

    

    =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 a communicative action o=
r activity involving two parties or things that reciprocally affect or infl=
uence each other

    Assumi=
ng you still agree with this as the definition of a transaction, then the c=
harter is in conflict:

    1)
    ... support authorizations scoped as narrowly as a single transacti=
on ...

    implies that the protocol is for authorization of a transaction, =
rather than being a transaction

    2)
    The delegation process will be acted upon by multip=
le parties in the protocol ...

    indicates that there are more than two parties, =
in conflict with the definition

    3) It is not clear=
 to me how this part of the definition

    ... reciprocally affect or influence each other

    Is part of the chart=
er.


    =C2=A0
    

    

    

    =C2=A0
    

    

    

    So with that in mind, I don=E2=80=99t think it=E2=80=
=99s misleading or confusing at all. I=E2=80=99m not sure why people keep r=
eferring to it as =E2=80=9Cincorrect=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0
    <snip>=C2=A0
    

    

    Plus:
    

    

      

    • 
ZZAuth =E2=80=93 The Protocol
    

    

    

    

    =C2=A0
    

    

    

    Please, no.
    =


    This comes across as an emotional response rather than =
a reasoned response.
    =C2=A0
    

    

    

    

    

    =C2=A0<=
/u>
    

    

    

    Surely others mus=
t have other good ideas than don=E2=80=99t use the misleading term =E2=80=
=9CTransactional=E2=80=9D or its abbreviation =E2=80=9CTx=E2=80=9D.<=
u>
    

    

    

    =C2=A0<=
/u>
    

    

    

    

    

    =C2=A0
    

    

    

    Again, as above, this is not misleading. That said, =
if there=E2=80=99s a better idea, I=E2=80=99m open to it. 
    <=
/div>

    Do you think it is your d=
ecision what the name is, or the group?
    =C2=A0
    But for all of the reasons I keep repeating now, T=
xAuth is decent and I haven=E2=80=99t seen a better one.
    

    

    

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0Given the numerous alternative name propo=
sals, and pushback on on "transaction" being in the name, I don&#=
39;t think there is consensus on TxAuth being the name

    =



    

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From: Dick Hardt 
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 17:57:44 -0700
Message-ID: 
To: Mike Jones 
Cc: Justin Richer , Amanjeev Sethi , Vijay IETF ,  Lee McGovern ,  "Matthew A. Miller" , "txauth@ietf.org" 
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Subject: Re: [Txauth] WG name: TxAuth? XAuth? Something else?
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On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 4:38 PM Mike Jones  wrote:

> The normal computer science use of the term =E2=80=9Ctransaction=E2=80=9D=
 involves a
> proposed state change that either commits or aborts atomically.  That
> doesn=E2=80=99t match your description of the term below.  It also doesn=
=E2=80=99t match
> the RFC 4949  definition of the term
> (which does match my paraphrase above).  It reads:
>
>
>
>    $ transaction
>
>       1. (I) A unit of interaction between an external entity and a
>
>       system, or between components within a system, that involves a
>
>       series of system actions or events.
>
>
>
>       2. (O) "A discrete event between user and systems that supports a
>
>       business or programmatic purpose." [M0404
> ]
>
>
>
>       Tutorial: To maintain secure state, transactions need to be
>
>       processed coherently and reliably. Usually, they need to be
>
>       designed to be atomic, consistent, isolated, and durable [Gray
> ]:
>
>       -  "Atomic": All actions and events that comprise the transaction
>
>          are guaranteed to be completed successfully, or else the result
>
>          is as if none at all were executed.
>
>       -  "Consistent": The transaction satisfies correctness constraints
>
>          defined for the data that is being processed.
>
>       -  "Isolated": If two transactions are performed concurrently,
>
>          they do not interfere with each other, and it appears as though
>
>          the system performs one at a time.
>
>       -  "Durable": System state and transaction semantics survive
>
>          system failures.
>
>
>
> We shouldn=E2=80=99t try to invent a new meaning for the well-established=
 computer
> science term =E2=80=9Ctransaction=E2=80=9D in this working group.
>
>
>
>                                                        -- Mike
>
>
>
> P.S.  On a personal note, I really continue to miss Jim Gray.
>
>
>
> *From:* Justin Richer 
> *Sent:* Monday, April 13, 2020 4:27 PM
> *To:* Mike Jones 
> *Cc:* Vijay IETF ; Matthew A. Miller <
> linuxwolf+ietf@outer-planes.net>; Lee McGovern =
;
> Amanjeev Sethi ; txauth@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Txauth] WG name: TxAuth? XAuth? Something else?
>
>
>
> On Apr 13, 2020, at 6:25 PM, Mike Jones 
> wrote:
>
>
>
> Because the proposed starting points and likely outcomes aren=E2=80=99t
> transactional, I believe we shouldn=E2=80=99t confuse people by calling i=
t
> Transactional Authorization or using the abbreviation =E2=80=9CTx=E2=80=
=9D.
>
>
>
> I=E2=80=99m not sure what you mean. XYZ, as a starting point, is transact=
ional by
> design. I have given several talks on this topic, which you have attended=
.
> And in fact I would argue that the entire intent-registration pattern, up=
on
> which both proposals are predicated, is transactional in nature as well. =
As
> Dick was kind enough to pull the definition earlier in this thread, let m=
e
> restate that definition:
>
>
>
>               *a communicative action or activity involving two parties
> or things that reciprocally affect or influence each other*
>
>
>
> The entire act of getting the delegation to occur is a transaction betwee=
n
> the client and the AS (or equivalent component). The client begins the
> transaction by talking to the AS, the AS continues the transaction by
> optionally getting the user involved, and the client continues the
> transaction when the interaction portion is completed, and so on. While
> this is intentionally built into XYZ, I would argue that even XAuth has
> this feature.
>
>
>
> So with that in mind, I don=E2=80=99t think it=E2=80=99s misleading or co=
nfusing at all.
> I=E2=80=99m not sure why people keep referring to it as =E2=80=9Cincorrec=
t=E2=80=9D.
>
>
>
> Yes, there are other definitions of =E2=80=9Ctransaction=E2=80=9D that do=
 not apply =E2=80=94
> words have more than one definition, and that happens.
>
>
>
> Since you asked, I will gladly offer my specific thoughts on your
> suggestions.
>
>
>
>
>
> I haven=E2=80=99t heard responses to any of these brainstormed names yet:
>
>    - Disaggregated Authorization (DisAuth)
>    - Componentized Authorization (CompAuth)
>
>
>
> Neither of these capture what=E2=80=99s different about this. The compone=
nts are
> largely the same as they were in OAuth 2, UMA, OIDC, SAML, and related
> protocols. The componentization isn=E2=80=99t the new thing here, so I do=
n=E2=80=99t think
> these are that good a fit.
>
>
>
>
>    -
>    - Build-Your-Own Authorization (BYOAuth)
>    - Do-It-Yourself Authorization (DIYAuth)
>
>
>
> These aren=E2=80=99t really what we=E2=80=99re after at all. In fact, the=
 proposed charter
> is specifically about building a protocol instead of a framework, so eith=
er
> of these are very misleading.
>
>
>
>
>    -
>    - Refactored Authorization (ReAuth or RefAuth)
>
>
>
> This doesn=E2=80=99t offer any description of what=E2=80=99s gone on here=
. Refactored from
> what? Additionally  I don=E2=80=99t believe this name flows naturally fro=
m the
> proposed shortenings.  =E2=80=9CReAuth=E2=80=9D sounds like =E2=80=9CReAu=
thorization=E2=80=9D and/or
> =E2=80=9CReAuthentication=E2=80=9D, where as =E2=80=9CRefAuth=E2=80=9D so=
unds like it should stand for
> =E2=80=9Creference=E2=80=9D instead of =E2=80=9Crefactored=E2=80=9D.
>
>
>
>
>    -
>
>
>
> To those I=E2=80=99ll now add:
>
>    - Alternative Authorization Protocol (AAP)
>    - Alternative Authorization (AltAuth)
>    - Reimagined Authorization (ReAuth)
>
>
>
> All of these are problematic for the same reason that =E2=80=9CNewAuth=E2=
=80=9D or
> =E2=80=9CNgAuth=E2=80=9D are. They just say =E2=80=9Cit=E2=80=99s new=E2=
=80=9D and don=E2=80=99t say anything about it. And
> if we=E2=80=99re successful, it won=E2=80=99t be =E2=80=9Cnew" while peop=
le are still using it.
>
>
>
>
>    -
>    - Back-end Based Authorization (BBAuth)
>
>
>
> This is a start in concept, as it starts to talk about what=E2=80=99s dif=
ferent,
> but =E2=80=9CBBAuth=E2=80=9D is already something =E2=80=94 one of the pr=
edecessors of OAuth 1.0
> was =E2=80=9CBBAuth=E2=80=9D from Flickr (later Yahoo). Also, note that i=
n this historical
> context, the expansion is =E2=80=9CBrowser Based Auth=E2=80=9D, which cou=
ld happen here
> again. As one of the key aspects of what people are interested is
> decoupling from the browser, we don=E2=80=99t want to have echos of that,=
 even if
> the name weren=E2=80=99t already historically taken.
>
>
>
>
>    -
>
>
>
> And for fun, there=E2=80=99s still:
>
>    - Dismembered Authorization
>
> Plus:
>
>    - ZZAuth =E2=80=93 The Protocol
>
>
>
> Please, no.
>
>
>
>
>
> Surely others must have other good ideas than don=E2=80=99t use the misle=
ading
> term =E2=80=9CTransactional=E2=80=9D or its abbreviation =E2=80=9CTx=E2=
=80=9D.
>
>
>
>
>
> Again, as above, this is not misleading. That said, if there=E2=80=99s a =
better
> idea, I=E2=80=99m open to it. But for all of the reasons I keep repeating=
 now,
> TxAuth is decent and I haven=E2=80=99t seen a better one.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>
>
>
>                                                        Cheers,
>
>                                                        -- Mike
>
>
>
> *From:* Txauth  *On Behalf Of *Justin Richer
> *Sent:* Monday, April 13, 2020 11:43 AM
> *To:* Vijay IETF 
> *Cc:* Matthew A. Miller ; Lee McGovern <
> Lee_McGovern@swissre.com>; Amanjeev Sethi ;
> txauth@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Txauth] WG name: TxAuth? XAuth? Something else?
>
>
>
> I appreciate the brainstorming of names here.
>
>
>
> I dislike names like =E2=80=9CNgAuth=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9CYAAP=E2=80=9D o=
r the like because they rely on
> this being =E2=80=9Cnew=E2=80=9D and it=E2=80=99s only =E2=80=9Cnew=E2=80=
=9D right now. If we=E2=80=99re successful and
> people are still talking about it in ten years then it won=E2=80=99t be n=
ew anymore
> and the name will just seem absurd.
>
>
>
> While we=E2=80=99re at it, we really can=E2=80=99t use =E2=80=9CXAuth=E2=
=80=9D because it=E2=80=99s already been
> something for 30 years: the X11 authentication command:
> https://www.x.org/archive/X11R6.8.1/doc/xauth.1.html
>
>
>
> My project=E2=80=99s name =E2=80=9CXYZ=E2=80=9D would also be a bad name =
for a lasting protocol,
> as it=E2=80=99s too generic on its own.
>
>
>
> I still argue that we should call the protocol and the working group
> *TxAuth*. Not only do I think the underlying =E2=80=9Ctransactional
> authorization=E2=80=9D aspect is a key difference from what=E2=80=99s com=
e before (the
> nature of which I=E2=80=99ve described many, many times on this list), if=
 you go
> and search for the term =E2=80=9Ctxauth=E2=80=9D you end up back at this =
mailing list and
> the posts that people have made about it.
>
>
>
>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>
>
>
>
> On Apr 10, 2020, at 9:22 AM, Vijay IETF  wrote:
>
>
>
> Assuming we are still at it...
>
>
>
> NgAuth (Next Gen Auth).
>
>
>
> On Tue, 24 Mar 2020 at 19:00, Amanjeev Sethi  wrote:
>
> TOI (as in french you): TxAuth's OAuth's Improvement
>
> On Tue, Mar 24, 2020, at 4:25 AM, Lee McGovern wrote:
> > YAAP
> >
> > Yet another authX protocol
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Txauth  On Behalf Of Matthew A. Miller
> > Sent: Monday, March 23, 2020 3:06 PM
> > To: txauth@ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: [Txauth] WG name: TxAuth? XAuth? Something else?
> >
> > On 20/03/23 13:49, Brian Campbell wrote:
> > > YAAAAS - Yet Another Authorization And Authentication Specification
> > >
> >
> > +1
> >
> >
> > - m&m
> >
> > Matthew A. Miller
> >
> > > On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 1:39 PM Mike Jones
> > >  > > > wrote:
> > >
> > >     In brainstorming mode=E2=80=A6____
> > >
> > >       * Disaggregated Authorization (DisAuth)____
> > >       * Componentized Authorization (CompAuth)____
> > >       * Build-Your-Own Authorization (BYOAuth)____
> > >       * Do-It-Yourself Authorization (DIYAuth)____
> > >       * Refactored Authorization (ReAuth or RefAuth)____
> > >
> > >     __ __
> > >
> > >     And for fun=E2=80=A6____
> > >
> > >       * Dismembered Authorization____
> > >
> > >     __ __
> > >
> > >                                                            -- Mike___=
_
> > >
> > >     __ __
> > >
> > >     *From:* Txauth  > >     > *On Behalf Of *David Skaife
> > >     *Sent:* Saturday, March 21, 2020 11:22 AM
> > >     *To:* Justin Richer >
> > >     *Cc:* Yaron Sheffer  > >     >; txauth@ietf.org
> > >     ; Dick Hardt  > >     >
> > >     *Subject:* Re: [Txauth] WG name: TxAuth? XAuth? Something
> > > else?____
> > >
> > >     __ __
> > >
> > >     I think we're saying the same thing with regards to the working
> > >     group name - I was saying it *isn't* particularly important in
> > >     comparison to the name of the protocol (which obviously is very
> > >     important).____
> > >
> > >     __ __
> > >
> > >     On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 6:18 PM Justin Richer  > >     > wrote:____
> > >
> > >         I disagree on the working group name being super important.
> > >         Nobody knows that the OAuth WG is actually named =E2=80=9CThe=
 Web
> > >         Authorization Protocol Working Group=E2=80=9D, and nobody car=
es.____
> > >
> > >         __ __
> > >
> > >         My proposal is that we name the protocol we work on =E2=80=9C=
TxAuth=E2=80=9D
> > >         (and keep the mailing list), and that we name the working gro=
up
> > >         something like =E2=80=9CNext Generation Web Authorization Pro=
tocol=E2=80=9D to
> > >         say what we=E2=80=99re doing.____
> > >
> > >         __ __
> > >
> > >          -- Justin____
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >         ____
> > >
> > >             On Mar 21, 2020, at 2:08 PM, David Skaife
> > >              > >             > wrote:____
> > >
> > >             __ __
> > >
> > >             Just to throw in another suggestion, to address Yaron's
> > >             point about some people mistakenly thinking that "Auth"
> > >             stands for authentication rather than authorization, how
> > >             about naming the working group *AuthZ*____
> > >
> > >             Nice and simple, and it makes it clear what the group is
> > >             focused on.
> > >
> > >             I think the name of the actual protocol that we produce i=
s
> > >             far, far more important that the name of the working grou=
p
> -
> > >             and the name of that protocol doesn't need to correlate t=
o
> > >             the WG name. Also, we have much more time before we need =
to
> > >             decide on the name of that protocol, even if the
> > >             initial draft documents that we produce end up using a
> > >             placeholder name.____
> > >
> > >             __ __
> > >
> > >             On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 5:44 PM Justin Richer
> > >             > wrote:____
> > >
> > >                 As you can see in the email you replied to, that is n=
ot
> > >                 even close to what I said. I believe it is a
> > >                 transaction, and therefore, I do not agree that it=E2=
=80=99s
> not
> > >                 a transaction.____
> > >
> > >                 __ __
> > >
> > >                 But if we take =E2=80=9CTransactional=E2=80=9D out of=
 the WG title, I
> > >                 won=E2=80=99t be offended. If we just call it =E2=80=
=9CTxAuth=E2=80=9D without
> > >                 expansion, then that=E2=80=99s fine.____
> > >
> > >                 __ __
> > >
> > >                 I do not like calling it =E2=80=9CXAuth=E2=80=9D. The=
 term =E2=80=9CTAuth" was
> > >                 floated during naming the list, but rejected because
> > >                 (among other reasons) it would likely be awkwardly
> > >                 pronounced as =E2=80=9Ctowth=E2=80=9D or something. T=
xAuth reads as
> =E2=80=9CTee
> > >                 - ex - oth=E2=80=9D more naturally, which was the int=
ent. ____
> > >
> > >                 __ __
> > >
> > >                 So how about we take a page from the OAuth working
> group
> > >                 and name it:____
> > >
> > >                 __ __
> > >
> > >                 TxAuth - Next Generation Web Authorization Protocol
> > >                 Working Group____
> > >
> > >                 __ __
> > >
> > >                 __ __
> > >
> > >                  =E2=80=94 Justin____
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >                 ____
> > >
> > >                     On Mar 21, 2020, at 1:15 PM, Dick Hardt
> > >                      >>
> > >                     wrote:____
> > >
> > >                     __ __
> > >
> > >                     To clarify -- you agree it is not a transaction,
> and
> > >                     we will take the word transaction out of the WG
> > >                     title?____
> > >
> > >                     __ __
> > >
> > >                     On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 5:53 PM Justin Richer
> > >                     >
> > > wrote:____
> > >
> > >                         Dick, thanks for pulling the definitions
> > > up:____
> > >
> > >                         __ __
> > >
> > >                         > a communicative action or activity involvin=
g
> > >                         two parties or things that reciprocally affec=
t
> > >                         or influence each other____
> > >
> > >                         __ __
> > >
> > >                         This is the kind of thing that I had in mind.
> > >                         The client and the AS are in a conversation
> over
> > >                         time that each one contributes to and each
> > >                         changes. ____
> > >
> > >                         __ __
> > >
> > >                         Also =E2=80=94 we can just as easily decide t=
hat
> > >                         =E2=80=9CTxAuth=E2=80=9D doesn=E2=80=99t stan=
d for =E2=80=9CTransactional Auth=E2=80=9D
> > >                         much the same way we decided that the =E2=80=
=9CO=E2=80=9D in
> > >                         =E2=80=9COAuth=E2=80=9D doesn=E2=80=99t stand=
 for =E2=80=9COpen=E2=80=9D anymore. ____
> > >
> > >                         __ __
> > >
> > >                         None of the arguments below in favor of XAuth
> > >                         have made me like that name better. If it=E2=
=80=99s
> just
> > >                         a =E2=80=9Cplaceholder=E2=80=9D name, then wh=
y come up with
> > >                         something new?____
> > >
> > >                         __ __
> > >
> > >                          =E2=80=94 Justin____
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >                         ____
> > >
> > >                             On Mar 20, 2020, at 3:32 PM, Dick Hardt
> > >                              > >                             > wrote:____
> > >
> > >                             __ __
> > >
> > >                             __ __
> > >
> > >                             __ __
> > >
> > >                             __ __
> > >
> > >                             not a transaction - there are multiple
> > >                             transactions____
> > >
> > >                             __ __
> > >
> > >                             backchannel innovation is combination of
> > >                             here is who I am, and here is what I want
> to
> > >                             do____
> > >
> > >                             __ __
> > >
> > >                             __ __
> > >
> > >                             childhood trauma therapy group____
> > >
> > >                             __ __
> > >
> > >                             __ __
> > >
> > >                             __ __
> > >
> > >                             On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 6:56 PM Justin
> > >                             Richer  > >                             > wrote:____
> > >
> > >                                 Yes, naming things is hard =E2=80=94 =
but I
> still
> > >                                 believe in the name TxAuth. We=E2=80=
=99re
> moving
> > >                                 beyond OAuth, and taking the process =
of
> > >                                 getting an authorization delegated to
> > >                                 the client software as a multi-step,
> > >                                 multi-party transaction is, I believe=
,
> > >                                 the key insight that=E2=80=99s lettin=
g us move
> > >                                 beyond OAuth=E2=80=99s limitations he=
re. It=E2=80=99s
> > >                                 not just about going to the AS first =
=E2=80=94
> > >                                 we had that in OAuth 1 and we=E2=80=
=99re
> > >                                 patching that into OAuth 2 with PAR..=
 I
> > >                                 really think it=E2=80=99s about the t=
ransaction
> > >                                 at the core.. ____
> > >
> > >                             __ __
> > >
> > >                             OAuth 2.0 had multi-step, multi-party.
> > >                             TxAuth extends that.____
> > >
> > >                             __ __
> > >
> > >                             I think the big shift is going to the AS.
> > >                             This enables the request to be richer wit=
h
> > >                             JSON, instead of name/value pairs
> parameters
> > >                             in a URI. It allows the client and AS to
> > >                             negotiate, and to short circuit having to
> > >                             redirect the user to the AS. PAR does som=
e
> > >                             of this, but it is constrained by having =
to
> > >                             do it in the OAuth 2.0 context.____
> > >
> > >                             __ __
> > >
> > >                             My concern is that the protocol is MUCH
> MORE
> > >                             than a transaction. While the initial
> > >                             interaction between client, AS, user and =
RO
> > >                             is a transaction. The protocol also cover=
s
> > >                             the client and RS interactions. The acces=
s
> > >                             token refreshes. Access token revocation.
> > >                             Access token introspection. As described =
in
> > >                             the charter, there is a whole lifecycle,
> > >                             that consists of multiple
> > > transactions.____
> > >
> > >                             __ __
> > >
> > >                             From
> > > https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transaction:____
> > >
> > >                             __ __
> > >
> > >
> > >                                 Definition of /transaction/____
> > >
> > >                             *1a**: *something transacted
> > >                             <
> https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transacted>/especially/ *: *an
> > >                             exchange or transfer
> > >                             <
> https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transfer> of
> > >                             goods, services, or
> > >                             fundselectronic /transactions/____
> > >
> > >                             *b: transactions*/ plural/ *: *the often
> > >                             published record of the meeting of a
> society
> > >                             or association____
> > >
> > >                             *2a**: *an act, process, or instance
> > >                             of transacting
> > >
> > > ____
> > >
> > >                             *b**: *a communicative action or activity
> > >                             involving two parties or things that
> > >                             reciprocally affect or influence each
> > > other____
> > >
> > >                             __ __
> > >
> > >                             Calling the protocol a transaction will
> > >                             confusing to people.____
> > >
> > >                              ____
> > >
> > >                                 __ __
> > >
> > >                                 Having come of age in the 1990=E2=80=
=99s, I
> have
> > >                                 particular dislike for XAuth. It soun=
ds
> > >                                 too =E2=80=9CX-TREME=E2=80=9D and =E2=
=80=9CX-CITING=E2=80=9D, and if
> you
> > >                                 read either of those with a growling
> > >                                 yell in your head then you know exact=
ly
> > >                                 what I=E2=80=99m talking about.____
> > >
> > >                             __ __
> > >
> > >                             In case you are confused, this is not a
> > >                             childhood trauma support group.  :)____
> > >
> > >                             __ __
> > >
> > >                             Unlike "X-TREME" or "X-CITING", XAuth is
> > >                             using the "X" as a placeholder. X-Men,
> Xbox,
> > >                             X-Factor, X-files. ____
> > >
> > >                             __ __
> > >
> > >
> > > https://www.businessinsider.com/the-indisputable-power-of-brand-x-201=
2
> > > -4____
> > >
> > >                             __ __
> > >
> > >
> > > https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/358181/whats-the-purpose-=
o
> > > f-using-letter-x-or-x-as-a-suffix-in-brand-names____
> > >
> > >                             __ __
> > >
> > >                              ____
> > >
> > >                                 And to Dick=E2=80=99s rationale for t=
he name
> > >                                 below, I absolutely do NOT see this
> work
> > >                                 as =E2=80=9COAuth with all the extra =
features=E2=80=9D.
> > >                                 I think that does a disservice to the
> > >                                 kind of change we have an opportunity
> to
> > >                                 make here. ____
> > >
> > >                             __ __
> > >
> > >                             From the charter ____
> > >
> > >                             __ __
> > >
> > >                                 "It will expand upon the uses cases
> > >                                 currently supported by OAuth 2.0 and
> > >                                 OpenID Connect (itself an extension o=
f
> > >                                 OAuth 2.0)"____
> > >
> > >                             __ __
> > >
> > >                             Which sounds pretty similar to =E2=80=9CO=
Auth with
> > >                             all the extra features=E2=80=9D____
> > >
> > >                             __ __
> > >
> > >                             While I think XAuth captures what we are
> > >                             doing, a placeholder name would be
> > >                             preferable to an incorrect descriptive na=
me
> > >                             such as TxAuth.____
> > >
> > >                             __ __
> > >
> > >                             For example, XYZ is a good placeholder
> name.
> > >                             Or XYZAuth. Let's not mislead people.____
> > >
> > >                              ____
> > >
> > >                                 __ __
> > >
> > >                                  =E2=80=94 Justin____
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >                                 ____
> > >
> > >                                     On Mar 16, 2020, at 7:04 PM, Dick
> > >                                     Hardt  > >                                     >
> > >                                     wrote:____
> > >
> > >                                     __ __
> > >
> > >                                     Hello everyone____
> > >
> > >                                     __ __
> > >
> > >                                     I prompted a thread around the na=
me
> > >                                     of the protocol a while back:____
> > >
> > >                                     __ __
> > >
> > >
> > > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/txauth/ZVQVbHt4ADqehKrBDXOrTr_s=
_
> > > wc/____
> > >
> > >                                     __ __
> > >
> > >                                     As Justin stated "naming is
> > > hard"____
> > >
> > >                                     __ __
> > >
> > >                                     Wearing my marketing hat I want t=
o
> > >                                     ensure that the name will be
> > >                                     perceived properly in the broader
> > >                                     community.____
> > >
> > >                                     __ __
> > >
> > >                                     A recent example that comes to mi=
nd
> > >                                     are the privacy related works on
> the
> > >                                     browser storage API. Given that
> > >                                     name, one would think that it is
> > >                                     local storage. It is actually abo=
ut
> > >                                     browser cookies.____
> > >
> > >                                     __ __
> > >
> > >                                     Justin discussed his reasons for
> > >                                     TxAuth in the thread above (and I=
'm
> > >                                     sure in other places)____
> > >
> > >                                     __ __
> > >
> > >                                     I chose XAuth in my draft to
> reflect
> > >                                     the eXtensibility goal that we ha=
ve
> > >                                     over OAuth -- and XAuth is OAuth
> but
> > >                                     with an X to reflect all the extr=
a
> > >                                     features. =3D)____
> > >
> > >                                     __ __
> > >
> > >                                     Other suggestions?____
> > >
> > >                                     __ __
> > >
> > >                                     This will be an agenda item in th=
e
> > >                                     BoF -- but the name will NOT be a=
n
> > >                                     open discussion item -- we will
> > >                                     summarize what has been discussed
> on
> > >                                     the list and perhaps do a poll of
> > >                                     options presented unless consensu=
s
> > >                                     is obvious from this thread.____
> > >
> > >                                     __ __
> > >
> > >                                     /Dick____
> > >
> > >                                     __ __
> > >
> > >                                     __ __
> > >
> > >                                     __ __
> > >
> > >                                     __ __
> > >
> > >                                     __ __
> > >
> > >                                     =E1=90=A7____
> > >
> > >                                 __ __
> > >
> > >                         __ __
> > >
> > >                 __ __
> > >
> > >                 --
> > >                 Txauth mailing list
> > >                 Txauth@ietf.org 
> > >                 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth____
> > >
> > >         __ __
> > >
> > >     --
> > >     Txauth mailing list
> > >     Txauth@ietf.org 
> > >     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Ping Identity <
> https://www.pingidentity.com>
> > > Brian Campbell
> > > Distinguished Engineer
> > > bcampbell@pingidentity.com 
> > > w: +1 720.317.2061
> > > c: +1 303.918..9415
> > >
> > > Connect with us:    Glassdoor logo
> > >  > > 07.11,24.htm> LinkedIn logo 
> > > twitter logo
> > >   facebook logo
> > >  youtube logo
> > >  Blog logo
> > > 
> > >
> > >  > > /ping-6-2-assets/Assets/faqs/en/consumer-attitudes-post-breach-era-33=
7
> > > 5.pdf?id%3Db6322a80-f285-11e3-ac10-0800200c9a66&source=3Dgmail&ust=3D=
15416
> > > 93608526000&usg=3DAFQjCNGBl5cPHCUAVKGZ_NnpuFj5PHGSUQ> > > entity.com/en/events/d/identify-2019.html> > > m/content/dam/ping-6-2-assets/Assets/Misc/en/3464-consumersurvey-exec=
s
> > > ummary.pdf> > > /www.pingidentity.com/en/events/e/rsa.html> > > om/en/lp/e/enabling-work-from-home-with-MFA.html>
> > >
> > > /If you=E2=80=99re not a current customer, click here
> > >  > > source=3DEmail&utm_campaign=3DWF-COVID19-New-EMSIG> for a more releva=
nt
> > > offer./
> > >
> > > /CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email may contain confidential and
> > > privileged material for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). An=
y
>
> > > review, use, distribution or disclosure by others is strictly
> > > prohibited..  If you have received this communication in error, pleas=
e
>
> > > notify the sender immediately by e-mail and delete the message and an=
y
>
> > > file attachments from your computer. Thank you./
> > >
> >
> > --
> > Txauth mailing list
> > Txauth@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
> >
> >
> > This e-mail, including attachments, is intended for the person(s) or
> > company named and may contain confidential and/or legally privileged
> > information.
> >
> > Unauthorized disclosure, copying or use of this information may be
> > unlawful and is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient,
> > please delete this message and notify the sender.
> > All incoming and outgoing e-mail messages are stored in the Swiss Re
> > Electronic Message Repository.
> > If you do not wish the retention of potentially private e-mails by
> > Swiss Re, we strongly advise you not to use the Swiss Re e-mail account
> > for any private, non-business related communications.
> > --
> > Txauth mailing list
> > Txauth@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
> >
>
> --
> Txauth mailing list
> Txauth@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>
> --
> Txauth mailing list
> Txauth@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>
>
> --
> Txauth mailing list
> Txauth@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>

--00000000000052916e05a3d6a09c
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable




    On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 4:38 PM Mike Jones <Michael=
.Jones=3D40microsoft.com@=
dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
    






    

    

    The normal comput=
er science use of the term =E2=80=9Ctransaction=E2=80=9D involves a propose=
d state change that either commits or aborts atomically.=C2=A0 That doesn=
=E2=80=99t match your description of the term below.=C2=A0 It also doesn=E2=
=80=99t match
 the RFC =
4949 definition of the term (which does match my paraphrase above).=C2=
=A0 It reads:
    

    =C2=A0<=
/u>
    

    =C2=A0=C2=A0 $ transaction<=
/p>

    =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 1. (I) A unit of =
interaction between an external entity and a
    

    =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 system, or betwee=
n components within a system, that involves a
    

    =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 series of system =
actions or events.
    

    =C2=A0
    

    =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 2. (O) "A di=
screte event between user and systems that supports a<=
/p>

    =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 business or progr=
ammatic purpose." [M0404]
    

    =C2=A0
    

    =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Tutorial: To main=
tain secure state, transactions need to be
    

    =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 processed coheren=
tly and reliably. Usually, they need to be
    

    =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 designed to be at=
omic, consistent, isolated, and durable [Gray]:

    =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -=C2=A0 "Ato=
mic": All actions and events that comprise the transaction
    

    =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
 are guaranteed to be completed successfully, or else the result<=
/u>
    

    =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
 is as if none at all were executed.
    

    =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -=C2=A0 "Con=
sistent": The transaction satisfies correctness constraints<=
/u>
    

    =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
 defined for the data that is being processed.
    

    =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -=C2=A0 "Iso=
lated": If two transactions are performed concurrently,<=
/span>
    

    =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
 they do not interfere with each other, and it appears as though<=
/u>
    

    =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
 the system performs one at a time.
    

    =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -=C2=A0 "Dur=
able": System state and transaction semantics survive
    

    =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
 system failures.
    

    =C2=A0<=
/u>
    

    We shouldn=E2=80=
=99t try to invent a new meaning for the well-established computer science =
term =E2=80=9Ctransaction=E2=80=9D in this working group.
    

    =C2=A0<=
/u>
    

    =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 -- Mike
    

    =C2=A0<=
/u>
    

    P.S.=C2=A0 On a p=
ersonal note, I really continue to miss Jim Gray.
    

    =C2=A0<=
/u>
    

    

    

    From: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> 
    
Sent: Monday, April 13, 2020 4:27 PM
    
To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
    
Cc: Vijay IETF <vijay.ietf@gmail.com>; Matthew A. Miller <linuxwolf+ietf@out=
er-planes.net>; Lee McGovern <Lee_McGovern@swissre.com>; Amanjeev Sethi=
 <aj@amanjeev.com>; txauth@ietf.or=
g
    
Subject: Re: [Txauth] WG name: TxAuth? XAuth? Something else?=

    

    

    

    =C2=A0
    

    

    

    On Apr 13, 2020, at 6:25 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@mic=
rosoft.com> wrote:
    

    

    =C2=A0
    

    

    

    Because the propo=
sed starting points and likely outcomes aren=E2=80=99t transactional, I bel=
ieve we shouldn=E2=80=99t confuse people by calling it Transactional Author=
ization or using the abbreviation =E2=80=9CTx=E2=80=9D.
    

    

    

    

    

    =C2=A0
    

    

    I=E2=80=99m not sure what you mean. XYZ, as a starti=
ng point, is transactional by design. I have given several talks on this to=
pic, which you have attended. And in fact I would argue that the entire int=
ent-registration pattern, upon which both
 proposals are predicated, is transactional in nature as well. As Dick was =
kind enough to pull the definition earlier in this thread, let me restate t=
hat definition:
    

    

    =C2=A0
    

    

    

    =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 a communicative action o=
r activity involving two parties or things that reciprocally affect or infl=
uence each other
    

    

    

    =C2=A0
    

    

    

    The entire act of getting the delegation to occur is=
 a transaction between the client and the AS (or equivalent component). The=
 client begins the transaction by talking to the AS, the AS continues the t=
ransaction by optionally getting the
 user involved, and the client continues the transaction when the interacti=
on portion is completed, and so on. While this is intentionally built into =
XYZ, I would argue that even XAuth has this feature.
    

    

    

    =C2=A0
    

    

    

    So with that in mind, I don=E2=80=99t think it=E2=80=
=99s misleading or confusing at all. I=E2=80=99m not sure why people keep r=
eferring to it as =E2=80=9Cincorrect=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0
    

    

    

    =C2=A0
    

    

    

    Yes, there are other definitions of =E2=80=9Ctransac=
tion=E2=80=9D that do not apply =E2=80=94 words have more than one definiti=
on, and that happens.
    

    

    

    

    =C2=A0
    

    

    

    Since you asked, I will gladly offer my specific tho=
ughts on your suggestions.
    

    

    


    

    

    

    

    

    =C2=A0<=
/u>
    

    

    

    

    I haven=E2=80=99t=
 heard responses to any of these brainstormed names yet:
    

    

      

    • 
Disaggregated Authorization (DisAuth)
    • 
Componentized Authorization (CompAuth)
    

    

    

    

    =C2=A0
    

    

    

    Neither of these capture what=E2=80=99s different ab=
out this. The components are largely the same as they were in OAuth 2, UMA,=
 OIDC, SAML, and related protocols. The componentization isn=E2=80=99t the =
new thing here, so I don=E2=80=99t think these are that good
 a fit.
    

    


    

    

    

    

    

      

    • 
=C2=A0
    • 
Build-Your-Own Authorization (BYOAuth)
    • 
Do-It-Yourself Authorization (DIYAuth)
    

    

    

    

    =C2=A0
    

    

    

    These aren=E2=80=99t really what we=E2=80=99re after=
 at all. In fact, the proposed charter is specifically about building a pro=
tocol instead of a framework, so either of these are very misleading.
    

    


    

    

    

    

    

      

    • 
=C2=A0
    • 
Refactored Authorization (ReAuth or RefAuth)
    

    

    

    

    =C2=A0
    

    

    

    This doesn=E2=80=99t offer any description of what=
=E2=80=99s gone on here. Refactored from what? Additionally =C2=A0I don=E2=
=80=99t believe this name flows naturally from the proposed shortenings. =
=C2=A0=E2=80=9CReAuth=E2=80=9D sounds like =E2=80=9CReAuthorization=E2=80=
=9D and/or =E2=80=9CReAuthentication=E2=80=9D, where
 as =E2=80=9CRefAuth=E2=80=9D sounds like it should stand for =E2=80=9Crefe=
rence=E2=80=9D instead of =E2=80=9Crefactored=E2=80=9D.
    

    


    

    

    

    

    

      

    • 
=C2=A0
    

    

    =C2=A0<=
/u>
    

    

    

    To those I=E2=80=
=99ll now add:
    

    

      

    • 
Alternative Authorization Protocol (AAP)
    • 
Alternative Authorization (AltAuth)
    • 
Reimagined Authorization (ReAuth)
    

    

    

    

    =C2=A0
    

    

    

    All of these are problematic for the same reason tha=
t =E2=80=9CNewAuth=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9CNgAuth=E2=80=9D are. They just say =
=E2=80=9Cit=E2=80=99s new=E2=80=9D and don=E2=80=99t say anything about it.=
 And if we=E2=80=99re successful, it won=E2=80=99t be =E2=80=9Cnew" wh=
ile people are still using it.
    

    


    

    

    

    

    

      

    • 
=C2=A0
    • 
Back-end Based Authorization (BBAuth)
    

    

    

    

    =C2=A0
    

    

    

    This is a start in concept, as it starts to talk abo=
ut what=E2=80=99s different, but =E2=80=9CBBAuth=E2=80=9D is already someth=
ing =E2=80=94 one of the predecessors of OAuth 1.0 was =E2=80=9CBBAuth=E2=
=80=9D from Flickr (later Yahoo). Also, note that in this historical contex=
t, the expansion
 is =E2=80=9CBrowser Based Auth=E2=80=9D, which could happen here again. As=
 one of the key aspects of what people are interested is decoupling from th=
e browser, we don=E2=80=99t want to have echos of that, even if the name we=
ren=E2=80=99t already historically taken.
    

    


    

    

    

    

    

      

    • 
=C2=A0
    

    

    =C2=A0<=
/u>
    

    

    

    And for fun, ther=
e=E2=80=99s still:
    

    

      

    • 
Dismembered Authorization
    

    

    Plus:
    

    

      

    • 
ZZAuth =E2=80=93 The Protocol
    

    

    

    

    =C2=A0
    

    

    

    Please, no.
    

    


    

    

    

    

    

    

    =C2=A0<=
/u>
    

    

    

    Surely others mus=
t have other good ideas than don=E2=80=99t use the misleading term =E2=80=
=9CTransactional=E2=80=9D or its abbreviation =E2=80=9CTx=E2=80=9D.<=
u>
    

    

    

    =C2=A0<=
/u>
    

    

    

    

    

    =C2=A0
    

    

    

    Again, as above, this is not misleading. That said, =
if there=E2=80=99s a better idea, I=E2=80=99m open to it. But for all of th=
e reasons I keep repeating now, TxAuth is decent and I haven=E2=80=99t seen=
 a better one.
    

    

    

    =C2=A0
    

    

    

    Thanks,
    

    

    

    =C2=A0
    

    

    

    =C2=A0=E2=80=94 Justin
    

    


    

    

    

    

    

    

    =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 Cheers,
    

    

    

    =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 -- Mike
    

    

    

    =C2=A0<=
/u>
    

    


    

    =C2=A0
    

    

    

    I appreciate the brainstorming of names here.=C2=A0<=
u>
    

    

    

    

    =C2=A0
    

    

    

    

    

    I dislike names like =E2=80=9CNgAuth=E2=80=9D or =E2=
=80=9CYAAP=E2=80=9D or the like because they rely on this being =E2=80=9Cne=
w=E2=80=9D and it=E2=80=99s only =E2=80=9Cnew=E2=80=9D right now. If we=E2=
=80=99re successful and people are still talking about it in ten years then=
 it won=E2=80=99t be new anymore and the name will
 just seem absurd.=C2=A0
    

    

    

    

    

    =C2=A0
    

    

    

    

    

    While we=E2=80=99re at it, we really can=E2=80=99t u=
se =E2=80=9CXAuth=E2=80=9D because it=E2=80=99s already been something for =
30 years: the X11 authentication command:=C2=A0https:/=
/www.x.org/archive/X11R6.8.1/doc/xauth.1.html
    

    

    

    

    

    =C2=A0
    

    

    

    

    

    My project=E2=80=99s name =E2=80=9CXYZ=E2=80=9D woul=
d also be a bad name for a lasting protocol, as it=E2=80=99s too generic on=
 its own.=C2=A0
    

    

    

    

    

    =C2=A0
    

    

    

    

    

    I still argue that we should call the protocol and t=
he working group=C2=A0TxAuth. Not only do I think the u=
nderlying =E2=80=9Ctransactional authorization=E2=80=9D aspect is a key dif=
ference from what=E2=80=99s come
 before (the nature of which I=E2=80=99ve described many, many times on thi=
s list), if you go and search for the term =E2=80=9Ctxauth=E2=80=9D you end=
 up back at this mailing list and the posts that people have made about it.=
=C2=A0
    

    

    

    

    =C2=A0
    

    

    

    

    

    =C2=A0=E2=80=94 Justin
    

    

    

    


    

    

    

    

    

    

    

    

    On Apr 10, 2020, at 9:22 AM, Vijay IETF <vijay.ietf@gmail.com=
> wrote:
    

    

    

    

    =C2=A0
    

    

    

    

    

    Assuming we are still at it...
    

    

    

    

    =C2=A0
    

    

    

    

    

    NgAuth (Next Gen Auth).
    

    

    

    

    

    =C2=A0
    

    

    

    

    

    On Tue, 24 Mar 2020 at 19:00, Amanjeev Sethi <aj@amanjeev.com> w=
rote:
    

    

    

    

    

    TOI (as in french you): TxAuth's OAuth's Imp=
rovement
    

    
On Tue, Mar 24, 2020, at 4:25 AM, Lee McGovern wrote:
    
> YAAP=C2=A0
    
>=C2=A0
    
> Yet another authX protocol
    
>=C2=A0
    
>=C2=A0
    
> -----Original Message-----
    
> From: Txauth <txauth-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Matthew A. Miller
    
> Sent: Monday, March 23, 2020 3:06 PM
    
> To:=C2=A0txauth@ietf.org
    
> Subject: Re: [Txauth] WG name: TxAuth? XAuth? Something else?
    
>=C2=A0
    
> On 20/03/23 13:49, Brian Campbell wrote:
    
> > YAAAAS - Yet Another Authorization And Authentication Specificati=
on
    
> >=C2=A0
    
>=C2=A0
    
> +1
    
>=C2=A0
    
>=C2=A0
    
> - m&m
    
>=C2=A0
    
> Matthew A. Miller
    
>=C2=A0
    
> > On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 1:39 PM Mike Jones=C2=A0
    
> > <Michael.Jones=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc..ietf.org
    
> > <mailto:40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org>> wrote:
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0In brainstorming mode=E2=80=A6____
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0* Disaggregated Authorization (DisAuth)=
____
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0* Componentized Authorization (CompAuth=
)____
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0* Build-Your-Own Authorization (BYOAuth=
)____
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0* Do-It-Yourself Authorization (DIYAuth=
)____
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0* Refactored Authorization (ReAuth or R=
efAuth)____
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=C2=A0__
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0And for fun=E2=80=A6____
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0* Dismembered Authorization____
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=C2=A0__
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -- Mike____
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=C2=A0__
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*From:* Txauth <txauth-bounces@ietf.org
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:txauth-bounces@ietf.org>> *On Behalf Of=
 *David Skaife
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*Sent:* Saturday, March 21, 2020 11:22 AM
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*To:* Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu=C2=A0<ma=
ilto:jricher@mit.edu>>
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*Cc:* Yaron Sheffer <    yaronf.ietf@gmail.com
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>>;=C2=A0txauth@ietf.org<=
br>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:txauth@ietf.org>; Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>>
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*Subject:* Re: [Txauth] WG name: TxAuth? XAuth=
? Something=C2=A0
    
> > else?____
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=C2=A0__
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I think we're saying the same thing with r=
egards to the working
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0group name - I was saying it *isn't* parti=
cularly important in
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0comparison to the name of the protocol (which =
obviously is very
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0important).____
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=C2=A0__
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 6:18 PM Justin Richer =
<jricher@mit.edu
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:    jricher@mit.edu>> wrote:____
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I disagree on the working group =
name being super important.
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Nobody knows that the OAuth WG i=
s actually named =E2=80=9CThe Web
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Authorization Protocol Working G=
roup=E2=80=9D, and nobody cares.____
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=C2=A0__
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0My proposal is that we name the =
protocol we work on =E2=80=9CTxAuth=E2=80=9D
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(and keep the mailing list), and=
 that we name the working group
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0something like =E2=80=9CNext Gen=
eration Web Authorization Protocol=E2=80=9D to
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0say what we=E2=80=99re doing.___=
_
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=C2=A0__
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0-- Justin____
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0____
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On Mar 21, 2020, a=
t 2:08 PM, David Skaife
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<blue.ringed.octopu=
s.guy@gmail.com
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:blue.ringed=
.octopus.guy@gmail.com>> wrote:____
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=C2=A0__
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Just to throw in a=
nother suggestion, to address Yaron's
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0point about some p=
eople mistakenly thinking that "Auth"
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0stands for authent=
ication rather than authorization, how
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0about naming the w=
orking group *AuthZ*____
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Nice and simple, a=
nd it makes it clear what the group is
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0focused on.
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I think the name o=
f the actual protocol that we produce is
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0far, far more impo=
rtant that the name of the working group -
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and the name of th=
at protocol doesn't need to correlate to
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the WG name. Also,=
 we have much more time before we need to
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0decide on the name=
 of that protocol, even if the
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0initial=C2=A0draft=
 documents that we produce end up using a
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0placeholder name._=
___
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=C2=A0__
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On Sat, Mar 21, 20=
20 at 5:44 PM Justin Richer
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<jricher@mit.edu=C2=A0<mailto:jricher@m=
it.edu>> wrote:____
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0As y=
ou can see in the email you replied to, that is not
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0even=
 close to what I said. I believe it is a
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0tran=
saction, and therefore, I do not agree that it=E2=80=99s not
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0a tr=
ansaction.____
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=
=C2=A0__
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0But =
if we take =E2=80=9CTransactional=E2=80=9D out of the WG title, I
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0won=
=E2=80=99t be offended. If we just call it =E2=80=9CTxAuth=E2=80=9D without=

    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0expa=
nsion, then that=E2=80=99s fine.____
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=
=C2=A0__
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I do=
 not like calling it =E2=80=9CXAuth=E2=80=9D. The term =E2=80=9CTAuth"=
 was
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0floa=
ted during naming the list, but rejected because
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(amo=
ng other reasons) it would likely be awkwardly
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0pron=
ounced as =E2=80=9Ctowth=E2=80=9D or something. TxAuth reads as =E2=80=9CTe=
e
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- ex=
 - oth=E2=80=9D more naturally, which was the intent.=C2=A0____
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=
=C2=A0__
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0So h=
ow about we take a page from the OAuth working group
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and =
name it:____
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=
=C2=A0__
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0TxAu=
th - Next Generation Web Authorization Protocol
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Work=
ing Group____
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=
=C2=A0__
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=
=C2=A0__
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=
=A0=E2=80=94 Justin____
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0____=

    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0On Mar 21, 2020, at 1:15 PM, Dick Hardt
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0<dic=
k.hardt@gmail.com=C2=A0<mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>>
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0wrote:____
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0__=C2=A0__
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0To clarify -- you agree it is not a transaction, and
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0we will take the word transaction out of the WG
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0title?____
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0__=C2=A0__
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0On Fri, Mar 20, 2020 at 5:53 PM Justin Richer
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0<jricher@=
mit.edu=C2=A0<mailto:jricher@mit.edu>>=C2=A0
    
> > wrote:____
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Dick, thanks for pulling the definitions=C2=
=A0
    
> > up:____
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=C2=A0__
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>=C2=A0a communicative action or activity involv=
ing
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0two parties or things that reciprocally affect
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0or influence each other____
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=C2=A0__
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0This is the kind of thing that I had in mind.
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The client and the AS are in a conversation over
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0time that each one contributes to and each
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0changes.=C2=A0____
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=C2=A0__
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Also =E2=80=94 we can just as easily decide that
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=9CTxAuth=E2=80=9D doesn=E2=80=99t stand for =
=E2=80=9CTransactional Auth=E2=80=9D
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0much the same way we decided that the =E2=80=9CO=E2=
=80=9D in
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=9COAuth=E2=80=9D doesn=E2=80=99t stand for =
=E2=80=9COpen=E2=80=9D anymore.=C2=A0____
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=C2=A0__
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0None of the arguments below in favor of XAuth
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0have made me like that name better. If it=E2=80=99s=
 just
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0a =E2=80=9Cplaceholder=E2=80=9D name, then why come=
 up with
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0something new?____
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=C2=A0__
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=E2=80=94 Justin____
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0____
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On Mar 20, 2020, at 3:32 PM, Dick Har=
dt
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<dick.hardt@gmail.com
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:dick.hardt@gmail.com>> wrote:____=

    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=C2=A0__
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=C2=A0__
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=C2=A0__
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=C2=A0__
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0not a transaction - there are multipl=
e
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0transactions____
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=C2=A0__
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0backchannel innovation is combination=
=C2=A0of
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0here is who I am, and here is what I =
want to
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0do____
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=C2=A0__
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=C2=A0__
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0childhood trauma therapy group____
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=C2=A0__
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=C2=A0__
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=C2=A0__
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 6:56 PM Justi=
n
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Richer <jricher@mit.edu
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:jricher@mit.edu>> wrote:____
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Yes, naming things is h=
ard =E2=80=94 but I still
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0believe in the name TxA=
uth. We=E2=80=99re moving
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0beyond OAuth, and takin=
g the process of
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0getting an authorizatio=
n delegated to
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the client software as =
a multi-step,
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0multi-party transaction=
 is, I believe,
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the key insight that=E2=
=80=99s letting us move
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0beyond OAuth=E2=80=99s =
limitations here. It=E2=80=99s
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0not just about going to=
 the AS first =E2=80=94
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0we had that in OAuth 1 =
and we=E2=80=99re
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0patching that into OAut=
h 2 with PAR.. I
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0really think it=E2=80=
=99s about the transaction
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0at the core..=C2=A0____=

    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=C2=A0__
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0OAuth 2.0 had multi-step, multi-party=
.
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0TxAuth extends that.____
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=C2=A0__
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I think the big shift is going to the=
 AS.
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0This enables the request to be richer=
 with
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0JSON, instead of name/value pairs par=
ameters
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0in a URI. It allows the client and AS=
 to
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0negotiate, and to short circuit havin=
g to
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0redirect the user to the AS. PAR does=
=C2=A0some
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0of this, but it is constrained by hav=
ing to
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0do it in the OAuth 2.0 context.____
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=C2=A0__
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0My concern is that the protocol is MU=
CH MORE
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0than a transaction. While the initial=

    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0interaction between client, AS, user =
and RO
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0is a transaction. The protocol also c=
overs
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the client=C2=A0and RS interactions. =
The access
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0token refreshes. Access token revocat=
ion.
    
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=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Access token introspection. As descri=
bed in
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the charter, there is a whole lifecyc=
le,
    
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=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0that consists of multiple=C2=A0=

    
> > transactions.____
    
> >=C2=A0
    
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=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=C2=A0__
    
> >=C2=A0
    
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=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0From
    
> >=C2=A0https://www.merriam-webster.com/=
dictionary/transaction:____
    
> >=C2=A0
    
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=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=C2=A0__
    
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=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Definition of=C2=A0/tra=
nsaction/____
    
> >=C2=A0
    
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=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*1a**:=C2=A0*something=C2=A0transacte=
d
    
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=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://www.merriam-webs=
ter.com/dictionary/transacted>/especially/=C2=A0*:=C2=A0*an
    
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=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0exchange or=C2=A0transfer
    
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=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://www.merriam-webste=
r.com/dictionary/transfer>=C2=A0of
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0goods, services, or
    
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=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0fundselectronic=C2=A0/transactions/__=
__
    
> >=C2=A0
    
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=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*b:=C2=A0transactions*/=C2=A0plural/=
=C2=A0*:=C2=A0*the often
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0published record of the meeting of a =
society
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0or association____
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*2a**:=C2=A0*an act, process, or inst=
ance
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0of=C2=A0transacting
    
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=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
    
> > <https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transact=
ing>____
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*b**:=C2=A0*a communicative action or=
 activity
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0involving two parties or things that<=
br>
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0reciprocally affect or influence each=
=C2=A0
    
> > other____
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=C2=A0__
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Calling the protocol a transaction wi=
ll
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0confusing to people.____
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0____
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=C2=A0__
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Having come of age in t=
he 1990=E2=80=99s, I have
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0particular dislike for =
XAuth. It sounds
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0too =E2=80=9CX-TREME=E2=
=80=9D and =E2=80=9CX-CITING=E2=80=9D, and if you
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0read either of those wi=
th a growling
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0yell in your head then =
you know exactly
    
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=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0what I=E2=80=99m talkin=
g about.____
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=C2=A0__
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0In case you are confused, this is not=
 a
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0childhood=C2=A0trauma support group.=
=C2=A0 :)____
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=C2=A0__
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Unlike "X-TREME" or "X=
-CITING", XAuth is
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0using the "X" as a placehol=
der. X-Men, Xbox,
    
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=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0X-Factor, X-files.=C2=A0____
    
> >=C2=A0
    
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=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=C2=A0__
    
> >=C2=A0
    
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=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0https://www.businessi=
nsider.com/the-indisputable-power-of-brand-x-2012
    
> > -4____
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=C2=A0__
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0https://english.stack=
exchange.com/questions/358181/whats-the-purpose-o
    
> > f-using-letter-x-or-x-as-a-suffix-in-brand-names____
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=C2=A0__
    
> >=C2=A0
    
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=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0____
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0And to Dick=E2=80=99s r=
ationale for the name
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0below, I absolutely do =
NOT see this work
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0as =E2=80=9COAuth with =
all the extra features=E2=80=9D.
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I think that does a dis=
service to the
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0kind of change we have =
an opportunity to
    
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=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0make here.=C2=A0____
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on the uses cases
    
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OAuth 2.0 and
    
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an extension of
    
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r name.
    
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, 2020, at 7:04 PM, Dick
    
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;dick.hardt@gmail=
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o:dick.hardt@gmai=
l.com>>
    
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otocol a while back:____
    
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etf.org/arch/msg/txauth/ZVQVbHt4ADqehKrBDXOrTr_s_
    
> > wc/____
    
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> >=C2=A0
    
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at the name will be
    
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example that comes to mind
    
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rivacy related works on the
    
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torage API. Given that
    
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 would think that it is
    
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rage. It is actually about
    
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ookies.____
    
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scussed his reasons for
    
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 the thread above (and I'm
    
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ther places)____
    
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_
    
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Auth in my draft to reflect
    
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sibility goal that we have
    
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h -- and XAuth is OAuth but
    
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 to reflect all the extra
    
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_
    
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gestions?____
    
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_
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0This will=
 be an agenda item in the
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0BoF -- bu=
t the name will NOT be an
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0open disc=
ussion item -- we will
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0summarize=
=C2=A0what has been discussed on
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the list =
and perhaps do a poll of
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0options p=
resented unless consensus
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0is obviou=
s from this thread.____
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=C2=A0_=
_
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0/Dick____=

    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=C2=A0_=
_
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=C2=A0_=
_
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=C2=A0_=
_
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=C2=A0_=
_
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=C2=A0_=
_
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=E1=90=A7____
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=C2=A0__
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=C2=A0__
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=
=C2=A0__
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Txau=
th mailing list
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Txauth@ietf.org=
=C2=A0<mailto:Txauth@ietf.org>
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth____
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__=C2=A0__
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Txauth mailing list
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Txauth@ietf.org=C2=A0<mailto:Txauth@ietf.org>
    
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> > --=C2=A0
    
> > <    h=
ttps://www.pingidentity.com>Ping Identity <https://www.pingidentity.com>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0
    
> > Brian Campbell=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0
    
> > Distinguished Engineer=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0bcampbell@pingidentity.com=C2=A0<mailt=
o:bcampbell=
@pingidentity.com>=C2=A0
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0
    
> > w: +1 720.317.2061=C2=A0=C2=A0
    
> > c: +1 303.918..9415=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> > Connect with us:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Glassdoor logo
    
> > <https://www.glassdoor.com/Overview/W=
orking-at-Ping-Identity-EI_IE3809
    
> > 07.11,24.htm> LinkedIn logo <https://www.linkedin.com/company/218=
70>
    
> > twitter logo
    
> > <https://twitter.com/pingidentity>=C2=A0 facebook logo
    
> > <https://www.facebook.com/pingidentitypage> youtube logo<=
br>
> > <https://www.youtube.com/user/PingIdentityTV> Blog logo<=
br>
> > <https://www.pingidentity.com/en/blog.html>=C2=A0
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> > <https://www.google.com/url?q=3Dhtt=
ps://www.pingidentity.com/content/dam
    
> > /ping-6-2-assets/Assets/faqs/en/consumer-attitudes-post-breach-er=
a-337
    
> > 5.pdf?id%3Db6322a80-f285-11e3-ac10-0800200c9a66&source=3Dgmai=
l&ust=3D15416
    
> > 93608526000&usg=3DAFQjCNGBl5cPHCUAVKGZ_NnpuFj5PHGSUQ><<=
a href=3D"https://www.pingid/" target=3D"_blank">https://www.pingid
    
> >=C2=A0entity.com/en/events/d/identify-2019.html><https:=
//www.pingidentity.co
    
> > m/content/dam/ping-6-2-assets/Assets/Misc/en/3464-consumersurvey-=
execs
    
> > ummary.pdf><https://www.pingidentity.com/en/events/e/r=
sa.html><https:/
    
> > /www.pingidentity.com/en/events/e/rsa.html><https://www.pingidentity=
.c
    
> > om/en/lp/e/enabling-work-from-home-with-MFA.html>
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> > /If you=E2=80=99re not a current customer, click=C2=A0here=
=C2=A0
    
> > <https://www.pingidentity.com/en/lp/e=
/work-from-home-sso-mfa.html?utm_
    
> > source=3DEmail&utm_campaign=3DWF-COVID19-New-EMSIG>=C2=A0f=
or a more relevant=C2=A0
    
> > offer./
    
> >=C2=A0
    
> > /CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email may contain confidential and<=
span>=C2=A0
    
> > privileged material for the sole use of the intended recipient(s)=
. Any=C2=A0
    
> > review, use, distribution or disclosure by others is strictly=C2=A0
    
> > prohibited..=C2=A0 If you have received this communication in err=
or, please=C2=A0
    
> > notify the sender immediately by e-mail and delete the message an=
d any=C2=A0
    
> > file attachments from your computer. Thank you./
    
> >=C2=A0
    
>=C2=A0
    
> --
    
> Txauth mailing list
    
>=C2=A0Txauth@ietf.org
    
>=C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
    
>=C2=A0
    
>=C2=A0
    
> This e-mail, including attachments, is intended for the person(s) or=C2=A0
    
> company named and may contain confidential and/or legally privileged=C2=A0
    
> information.
    
>=C2=A0
    
> Unauthorized disclosure, copying or use of this information may be=C2=A0
    
> unlawful and is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient,=C2=A0
    
> please delete this message and notify the sender.
    
> All incoming and outgoing e-mail messages are stored in the Swiss Re=C2=A0
    
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> If you do not wish the retention of potentially private e-mails by=C2=A0
    
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t=C2=A0
    
> for any private, non-business related communications.
    
> --=C2=A0
    
> Txauth mailing list
    
>=C2=A0Txauth@ietf.org
    
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>
    

    
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Txauth mailing list
    
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Subject: Re: [Txauth] WG name: TxAuth? XAuth? Something else?
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>
> The entire act of getting the delegation to occur is a transaction between
> the client and the AS (or equivalent component). The client begins the
> transaction by talking to the AS, the AS continues the transaction by
> optionally getting the user involved, and the client continues the
> transaction when the interaction portion is completed, and so on.
>

An important part of the protocol is how the client presents authorization
to the RS, which one could consider a transaction (and is called as much in
the charter)

--000000000000e1a32b05a3d6ac52
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    =


    

    

    

    =C2=A0
    

    

    

    The entire act of getting the delegation to occur is=
 a transaction between the client and the AS (or equivalent component). The=
 client begins the transaction by talking to the AS, the AS continues the t=
ransaction by optionally getting the
 user involved, and the client continues the transaction when the interacti=
on portion is completed, and so on.
    =

    An important part of the protocol is how the client presents=
 authorization to the RS, which one could consider a transaction (and is ca=
lled as much in the charter)


    =C2=A0=

    

--000000000000e1a32b05a3d6ac52--


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From: Dick Hardt 
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 18:04:22 -0700
Message-ID: 
To: George Fletcher 
Cc: Justin Richer , Mike Jones ,  "Matthew A. Miller" , Vijay IETF ,  Lee McGovern , Amanjeev Sethi ,  "txauth@ietf.org" 
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Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Txauth] WG name: TxAuth? XAuth? Something else?
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George: I think your application of "transaction" is different from what
Justin is intending.

>From Justin:

And I think with all of this argument it=E2=80=99s important to point out t=
hat I=E2=80=99ve
been using an adjective form the whole time: Transactional Authorization.
It=E2=80=99s an authorization that has aspects and components and artifacts=
 of a
transaction.



On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 8:54 AM George Fletcher  wrote:

> Personally I like TRADE as the words clearly identify what the protocol i=
s
> about. For me, the protocol is about establishing Authorization and
> Delegation for use in multiple transactions over time.
>

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    George: I think your application of "transaction=
" is different from what Justin is intending.=C2=A0

    From Justin:
    And I think with all of this argument it=E2=80=99s impor=
tant to point out that I=E2=80=99ve been using an=C2=A0adjective=C2=A0form the whole time: Transactional Authorization=
. It=E2=80=99s an authorization that has aspects and components and artifac=
ts of a transaction.=C2=A0


    On Tue, Apr 14, 2020=
 at 8:54 AM George Fletcher <gffletch=3D40aol.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
    
 =20
   =20
 =20
  
    
    Personally I like TRADE as the words clearly identify what the
    protocol is about. For me, the protocol is about establishing
    Authorization and Delegation for use in multiple transactions over
    time.
    

    

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From: Dick Hardt 
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 18:12:38 -0700
Message-ID: 
To: txauth@ietf.org
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Subject: [Txauth] alignment on Justin's use of "transactional" adjective
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With the recent threads on the name, I'm going to make a push to get
consensus. While there are many of you that don't care, there are also many
that do care (myself included)

There have been a number of people (including myself) concerned with the
protocol being called a transaction, there may be others (besides Justin)
that are aligned with Justin's definition that have not felt a need to say
anything.

So let's get some feedback:

Transactional Authorization. It=E2=80=99s an authorization that has aspects=
 and
components and artifacts of a transaction.

If you are aligned using "transactional", please respond with a +1

If you are not aligned, please respond with a -1

If you don't care, don't bother responding. :)

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    With the recent threads on the name, I'm going to=
 make a push to get consensus. While there are many of you that don't c=
are, there are also many that do care (myself included)

    There have been a number of people (including myself) concerned=C2=A0with =
the protocol being called=C2=A0a transaction, there may be others (besides =
Justin) that are aligned with Justin's definition that have not felt a =
need to say anything.=C2=A0

    So let's get some f=
eedback:

    Transactional Authorization. It=E2=80=99s=
 an authorization that has aspects and components and artifacts of a transa=
ction.=C2=A0

    If you are aligned using "transact=
ional", please respond with a=C2=A0+1

    If you =
are not aligned, please respond with a -1

    If you d=
on't care, don't bother responding. :)
    

--0000000000008c25af05a3d6d532--


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From: Mike Jones 
To: Dick Hardt , "txauth@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [Txauth] alignment on Justin's use of "transactional" adjective
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Subject: Re: [Txauth] alignment on Justin's use of "transactional" adjective
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Subject: Re: [Txauth] [E] alignment on Justin's use of "transactional" adjective
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-1

BR,
Bjorn

> On Apr 21, 2020, at 6:12 PM, Dick Hardt  wrote:
>
> =EF=BB=BF
> With the recent threads on the name, I'm going to make a push to get cons=
ensus. While there are many of you that don't care, there are also many tha=
t do care (myself included)
>
> There have been a number of people (including myself) concerned with the =
protocol being called a transaction, there may be others (besides Justin) t=
hat are aligned with Justin's definition that have not felt a need to say a=
nything.
>
> So let's get some feedback:
>
> Transactional Authorization. It=E2=80=99s an authorization that has aspec=
ts and components and artifacts of a transaction.
>
> If you are aligned using "transactional", please respond with a +1
>
> If you are not aligned, please respond with a -1
>
> If you don't care, don't bother responding. :)
> --
> Txauth mailing list
> Txauth@ietf.org
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Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 14:58:03 +0300
From: Yaron Sheffer 
To: Mike Jones , Dick Hardt , "txauth@ietf.org" 
Message-ID: <75D60740-8C84-4065-9FD6-F044358BE0D8@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [Txauth] alignment on Justin's use of "transactional" adjective
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--B_3670412284_999219722
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I am mostly in the Don=E2=80=99t Care camp on this. However:

=20
=E2=80=9Ctrade=E2=80=9D is the name of a concluded working group, so it=E2=80=99s not an opti=
on.
I personally don=E2=80=99t like the =E2=80=9Cyet another=E2=80=9D prefix. To me it is belittl=
ing, without adding any useful semantics. It may have been fun when YACC cam=
e about (1970 or so), but IMHO not since.
=20

Thanks,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Yaron

=20

From: Txauth  on behalf of Mike Jones 
Date: Wednesday, April 22, 2020 at 04:20
To: Dick Hardt , "txauth@ietf.org" 
Subject: Re: [Txauth] alignment on Justin's use of "transactional" adjectiv=
e

=20

-1 to =E2=80=9Ctransactional=E2=80=9D

=20

I and others have proposed many more accurate adjectives including:
Disaggregated
Componentized
Build-Your-Own
Do-It-Yourself
Refactored
Dismembered
Yet Another
Alternative
Reimagined
Back-end Based
=20

Let=E2=80=99s use one of them or find another one.

=20

FYI, my current favorite name is YAAP =E2=80=93 Yet Another Authorization Protoco=
l.

=20

                                                          -- Mike

=20

From: Txauth  On Behalf Of Dick Hardt
Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2020 6:13 PM
To: txauth@ietf.org
Subject: [Txauth] alignment on Justin's use of "transactional" adjective

=20

With the recent threads on the name, I'm going to make a push to get consen=
sus. While there are many of you that don't care, there are also many that d=
o care (myself included)

=20

There have been a number of people (including myself) concerned with the pr=
otocol being called a transaction, there may be others (besides Justin) that=
 are aligned with Justin's definition that have not felt a need to say anyth=
ing.=20

=20

So let's get some feedback:

=20

Transactional Authorization. It=E2=80=99s an authorization that has aspects and c=
omponents and artifacts of a transaction.=20

=20

If you are aligned using "transactional", please respond with a +1

=20

If you are not aligned, please respond with a -1

=20

If you don't care, don't bother responding. :)

-- Txauth mailing list Txauth@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinf=
o/txauth=20


--B_3670412284_999219722
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    I am mostly in the Don=E2=80=99t Care camp on th=
is. However:
     
    • =E2=80=9Ctrade=E2=80=9D is the name of a concluded working gr=
oup, so it=E2=80=99s not an option.
    • I personally don=E2=80=99t like the =E2=80=
=9Cyet another=E2=80=9D prefix. To me it is belittling, without adding any useful se=
mantics. It may have been fun when YACC came about (1970 or so), but IMHO no=
t since.
     
    Thanks,
    =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Yaron
     
    From: =
Txauth <txauth-bounces@iet=
f.org> on behalf of Mike Jones <Michael.Jones=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ie=
tf.org>
    Date: Wednesday, April 22, 2020 at 04:20
    To: =
Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>, "txauth@ietf.org" <txa=
uth@ietf.org>
    Subject: Re: [Txauth] alignment on Justin's use o=
f "transactional" adjective
     
    -1 to =E2=80=9Ctransactional=E2=80=9D
     
    =
I and others have proposed many more accurate ad=
jectives including:
    • Disaggregated
    • Componentized<=
/o:p>
    • Build-Your-Own
    • Do-It-Your=
self
    • Refactored
    • Dism=
embered
    • Yet Another
    • =
Alternative
    • Reimagined
    • Back-end Based
     
    Let=E2=80=99s use one of them or find another one.
     
    FYI, my current favorite name is=
 YAAP =E2=80=93 Yet Another Authorization Protocol.
     
          &nb=
sp;            &=
nbsp;            =
;            &nb=
sp;             =
-- Mike
    =
 
    From: Txauth <=
;txauth-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Dick Hardt
    Sent: =
Tuesday, April 21, 2020 6:13 PM
    To: txauth@ietf.org
    Subject:=
 [Txauth] alignment on Justin's use of "transactional" adjecti=
ve
     
    With the recent threads on the name, I'm going to make a pus=
h to get consensus. While there are many of you that don't care, there are a=
lso many that do care (myself included)
     
    There have been a numb=
er of people (including myself) concerned with the protocol being calle=
d a transaction, there may be others (besides Justin) that are aligned =
with Justin's definition that have not felt a need to say anything. 
     
    So let's get some feedback:
     
    Transactional=
 Authorization. It=E2=80=99s an authorization that has aspects and components and =
artifacts of a transaction. 
    &nbs=
p;
    If you are aligned using &quo=
t;transactional", please respond with a +1
     
    If y=
ou are not aligned, please respond with a -1
     
    If you don't=
 care, don't bother responding. :)
    -- Txauth mailing list Txauth@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/txauth 
    

--B_3670412284_999219722--



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To: Yaron Sheffer , Mike Jones , Dick Hardt , "txauth@ietf.org" 
References:  <75D60740-8C84-4065-9FD6-F044358BE0D8@gmail.com>
From: George Fletcher 
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Subject: Re: [Txauth] alignment on Justin's use of "transactional" adjective
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Generally I'm -1 to "transactional" (though I fully admit I'm biased 
because I have an idea I'm calling "Transaction Tokens" [dealing with 
authorizing a single transaction within a micro-services like 
architecture] :)

I'm definitely against YAAP; largely for the reasons Yaron mentions.

I'm a bit sad that TRADE is not a option because that was my preferred 
option.

For XYZ/XAuth the authorization has a bit of shared component. It's kind 
of a negotiation between the client, the authorization server and the 
resource owner. This is in contrast to many centralized authorization 
models where authorization is granted based on the identity of the 
requestor.

I'm really bad at naming but I'll throw this out there "Client Initiated 
Authorization" :)

On 4/22/20 7:58 AM, Yaron Sheffer wrote:
> I am mostly in the Don’t Care camp on this. However:
>
>   
> “trade” is the name of a concluded working group, so it’s not an option.
> I personally don’t like the “yet another” prefix. To me it is belittling, without adding any useful semantics. It may have been fun when YACC came about (1970 or so), but IMHO not since.
>   
>
> Thanks,
>
>                  Yaron
>
>   
>
> From: Txauth  on behalf of Mike Jones 
> Date: Wednesday, April 22, 2020 at 04:20
> To: Dick Hardt , "txauth@ietf.org" 
> Subject: Re: [Txauth] alignment on Justin's use of "transactional" adjective
>
>   
>
> -1 to “transactional”
>
>   
>
> I and others have proposed many more accurate adjectives including:
> Disaggregated
> Componentized
> Build-Your-Own
> Do-It-Yourself
> Refactored
> Dismembered
> Yet Another
> Alternative
> Reimagined
> Back-end Based
>   
>
> Let’s use one of them or find another one.
>
>   
>
> FYI, my current favorite name is YAAP – Yet Another Authorization Protocol.
>
>   
>
>                                                            -- Mike
>
>   
>
> From: Txauth  On Behalf Of Dick Hardt
> Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2020 6:13 PM
> To: txauth@ietf.org
> Subject: [Txauth] alignment on Justin's use of "transactional" adjective
>
>   
>
> With the recent threads on the name, I'm going to make a push to get consensus. While there are many of you that don't care, there are also many that do care (myself included)
>
>   
>
> There have been a number of people (including myself) concerned with the protocol being called a transaction, there may be others (besides Justin) that are aligned with Justin's definition that have not felt a need to say anything.
>
>   
>
> So let's get some feedback:
>
>   
>
> Transactional Authorization. It’s an authorization that has aspects and components and artifacts of a transaction.
>
>   
>
> If you are aligned using "transactional", please respond with a +1
>
>   
>
> If you are not aligned, please respond with a -1
>
>   
>
> If you don't care, don't bother responding. :)
>
> -- Txauth mailing list Txauth@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>
>
>


--------------DAF75390B579C1636945587E
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    Generally I'm -1 to
      "transactional" (though I fully admit I'm biased because I have an
      idea I'm calling "Transaction Tokens" [dealing with authorizing a
      single transaction within a micro-services like architecture] :)
    
      
    
      I'm definitely against YAAP; largely for the reasons Yaron
      mentions.
    
      
    
      I'm a bit sad that TRADE is not a option because that was my
      preferred option.
    
      
    
      For XYZ/XAuth the authorization has a bit of shared component.
      It's kind of a negotiation between the client, the authorization
      server and the resource owner. This is in contrast to many
      centralized authorization models where authorization is granted
      based on the identity of the requestor.
    
      
    
      I'm really bad at naming but I'll throw this out there "Client
      Initiated Authorization" :)
    
    
    
    
    On 4/22/20 7:58 AM, Yaron Sheffer
      wrote:
    
    
    
    
    
      
    I am mostly in the Don’t Care camp on this. However:

 
“trade” is the name of a concluded working group, so it’s not an option.
I personally don’t like the “yet another” prefix. To me it is belittling, without adding any useful semantics. It may have been fun when YACC came about (1970 or so), but IMHO not since.
 

Thanks,

                Yaron

 

From: Txauth <txauth-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Mike Jones <Michael.Jones=40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Date: Wednesday, April 22, 2020 at 04:20
To: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>, "txauth@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Txauth] alignment on Justin's use of "transactional" adjective

 

-1 to “transactional”

 

I and others have proposed many more accurate adjectives including:
Disaggregated
Componentized
Build-Your-Own
Do-It-Yourself
Refactored
Dismembered
Yet Another
Alternative
Reimagined
Back-end Based
 

Let’s use one of them or find another one.

 

FYI, my current favorite name is YAAP – Yet Another Authorization Protocol.

 

                                                          -- Mike

 

From: Txauth <txauth-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Dick Hardt
Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2020 6:13 PM
To: txauth@ietf.org
Subject: [Txauth] alignment on Justin's use of "transactional" adjective

 

With the recent threads on the name, I'm going to make a push to get consensus. While there are many of you that don't care, there are also many that do care (myself included)

 

There have been a number of people (including myself) concerned with the protocol being called a transaction, there may be others (besides Justin) that are aligned with Justin's definition that have not felt a need to say anything. 

 

So let's get some feedback:

 

Transactional Authorization. It’s an authorization that has aspects and components and artifacts of a transaction. 

 

If you are aligned using "transactional", please respond with a +1

 

If you are not aligned, please respond with a -1

 

If you don't care, don't bother responding. :)

-- Txauth mailing list Txauth@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth 



    
      
    
      
    
    
    
    
    
  


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Thread-Topic: [Txauth] alignment on Justin's use of "transactional" adjective
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From: Fabien Imbault 
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 15:22:10 +0200
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To: txauth@ietf.org
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c3d2cc05a3e10594"
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Subject: Re: [Txauth] Txauth Digest, Vol 8, Issue 17
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+1 transactional (without strong opinions, I would do with something
else/better, but so far I haven't seen one).

"txauth" seems a good enough proposal to me (distinctive & not used
elsewhere & we still know it's related to auth).

Cheers.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Mike Varley 
> To: "txauth@ietf.org" 
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 12:55:28 +0000
> Subject: Re: [Txauth] alignment on Justin's use of "transactional"
> adjective
>
> +1 to =E2=80=9Ctransactional=E2=80=9D
>
> Although I=E2=80=99m not strongly tied to the adjective, I haven=E2=80=99=
t seen a
> suggestion that more accurately captures the intent of the protocol, whic=
h
> to my mind can be summarized as:
>
> There is a pre-flight setup transaction required by clients to
> authorization servers before the OAuth request/response (transaction)
> process can begin to ensure that the following authorization (transaction=
)
> elements include but are not limited to:
>
>    1. The client is authorized to even attempt the end-user
>    authentication/authorization.
>    2. The client and authorization server have a clear understanding each
>    other=E2=80=99s user engagement capabilities and requirements.
>
> Further, clients and authorization servers are not limited to the same
> static relationship for all authorization transactions.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> MV
>
>
>
> *From: *Txauth  on behalf of George Fletcher
> 
> *Organization: *AOL LLC
> *Date: *Wednesday, April 22, 2020 at 8:19 AM
> *To: *Yaron Sheffer , Mike Jones  40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, Dick Hardt , "
> txauth@ietf.org" 
> *Subject: *Re: [Txauth] alignment on Justin's use of "transactional"
> adjective
>
>
>
> Generally I'm -1 to "transactional" (though I fully admit I'm biased
> because I have an idea I'm calling "Transaction Tokens" [dealing with
> authorizing a single transaction within a micro-services like architectur=
e]
> :)
>
> I'm definitely against YAAP; largely for the reasons Yaron mentions.
>
> I'm a bit sad that TRADE is not a option because that was my preferred
> option.
>
> For XYZ/XAuth the authorization has a bit of shared component. It's kind
> of a negotiation between the client, the authorization server and the
> resource owner. This is in contrast to many centralized authorization
> models where authorization is granted based on the identity of the
> requestor.
>
> I'm really bad at naming but I'll throw this out there "Client Initiated
> Authorization" :)
>
> On 4/22/20 7:58 AM, Yaron Sheffer wrote:
>
> I am mostly in the Don=E2=80=99t Care camp on this. However:
>
>
>
>  =E2=80=9Ctrade=E2=80=9D is the name of a concluded working group, so it=
=E2=80=99s not an option.
>
> I personally don=E2=80=99t like the =E2=80=9Cyet another=E2=80=9D prefix.=
 To me it is belittling, without adding any useful semantics. It may have b=
een fun when YACC came about (1970 or so), but IMHO not since.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
>                 Yaron
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Txauth   on behal=
f of Mike Jones  
>
> Date: Wednesday, April 22, 2020 at 04:20
>
> To: Dick Hardt  , "txauth@iet=
f.org"   
>
> Subject: Re: [Txauth] alignment on Justin's use of "transactional" adject=
ive
>
>
>
>
>
> -1 to =E2=80=9Ctransactional=E2=80=9D
>
>
>
>
>
> I and others have proposed many more accurate adjectives including:
>
> Disaggregated
>
> Componentized
>
> Build-Your-Own
>
> Do-It-Yourself
>
> Refactored
>
> Dismembered
>
> Yet Another
>
> Alternative
>
> Reimagined
>
> Back-end Based
>
>
>
> Let=E2=80=99s use one of them or find another one.
>
>
>
>
>
> FYI, my current favorite name is YAAP =E2=80=93 Yet Another Authorization=
 Protocol.
>
>
>
>
>
>                                                           -- Mike
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Txauth   On Behal=
f Of Dick Hardt
>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2020 6:13 PM
>
> To: txauth@ietf.org
>
> Subject: [Txauth] alignment on Justin's use of "transactional" adjective
>
>
>
>
>
> With the recent threads on the name, I'm going to make a push to get cons=
ensus. While there are many of you that don't care, there are also many tha=
t do care (myself included)
>
>
>
>
>
> There have been a number of people (including myself) concerned with the =
protocol being called a transaction, there may be others (besides Justin) t=
hat are aligned with Justin's definition that have not felt a need to say a=
nything.
>
>
>
>
>
> So let's get some feedback:
>
>
>
>
>
> Transactional Authorization. It=E2=80=99s an authorization that has aspec=
ts and components and artifacts of a transaction.
>
>
>
>
>
> If you are aligned using "transactional", please respond with a +1
>
>
>
>
>
> If you are not aligned, please respond with a -1
>
>
>
>
>
> If you don't care, don't bother responding. :)
>
>
>
> -- Txauth mailing list Txauth@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listi=
nfo/txauth
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> This email and any attachments are for the sole use of the intended
> recipients and may be privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from
> disclosure under law. Any distribution, printing or other use by anyone
> other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you are not an intend=
ed
> recipient, please contact the sender immediately, and permanently delete
> this email and its attachments.
> Txauth mailing list
> Txauth@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>

--000000000000c3d2cc05a3e10594
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


    +1 transactional (without strong opinions, I would do=
 with something else/better, but so far I haven't seen one).=C2=A0

    "txauth" seems a good enough proposal to me =
(distinctive & not used elsewhere & we still know it's related =
to auth).

    Cheers.

    --------=
-- Forwarded message ----------
    From:=C2=A0Mike Varley <mike.varley@securekey.com=
>
    To:=C2=A0"txauth@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf.org>
    Cc:=C2=A0
    Bcc:=C2=A0
    Date:=C2=
=A0Wed, 22 Apr 2020 12:55:28 +0000
    Subject:=C2=A0Re: [Txauth] alignment =
on Justin's use of "transactional" adjective
    






    

    

    +1 to =E2=80=9Ctransactional=E2=80=9D<=
/p>

    Although I=E2=80=99m not strongly tied to the adject=
ive, I haven=E2=80=99t seen a suggestion that more accurately captures the =
intent of the protocol, which to my mind can be summarized as:
    

    There is a pre-flight setup transaction required by =
clients to authorization servers before the OAuth request/response (transac=
tion) process can begin to ensure that the following authorization (transac=
tion) elements include but are not
 limited to:
    

      

    1. The client is authorized to even attempt the end-user authenticati=
on/authorization.
    2. The client and authorization s=
erver have a clear understanding each other=E2=80=99s user engagement capab=
ilities and requirements.
    

    Further, clients and authorization servers are not l=
imited to the same static relationship for all authorization transactions.<=
u>
    

    =C2=A0
    

    Thanks,
    

    =C2=A0
    

    MV =C2=A0
    

    =C2=A0
    

    

    From:
Txauth <txauth-bounces@ietf.org<=
/a>> on behalf of George Fletcher <gffletch=3D40aol.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
    
Organization: AOL LLC
    
Date: Wednesday, April 22, 2020 at 8:19 AM
    
To: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones=3D=
40micro=
soft.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>, "txauth@ietf.org" <=
;txauth@ietf.org&g=
t;
    
Subject: Re: [Txauth] alignment on Justin's use of "transac=
tional" adjective
    

    

    

    =C2=A0
    

    

    
Generally I'm -1 to "transac=
tional" (though I fully admit I'm biased because I have an idea I&=
#39;m calling "Transaction Tokens" [dealing with authorizing a si=
ngle transaction within a micro-services like architecture] :)
    

    
I'm definitely against YAAP; largely for the reasons Yaron mentions.

    
I'm a bit sad that TRADE is not a option because that was my preferred =
option.
    

    
For XYZ/XAuth the authorization has a bit of shared component. It's kin=
d of a negotiation between the client, the authorization server and the res=
ource owner. This is in contrast to many centralized authorization models w=
here authorization is granted based
 on the identity of the requestor.
    

    
I'm really bad at naming but I'll throw this out there "Client=
 Initiated Authorization" :)
    

    

    On 4/22/20 7:58 AM, Yaron=
 Sheffer wrote:
    

    

    

    I am mostly in the Don=E2=80=99t Care camp =
on this. However:
    

    =C2=A0
    

     
    

    =E2=80=9Ctrade=E2=80=9D is the name of a co=
ncluded working group, so it=E2=80=99s not an option.
    

    I personally don=E2=80=99t like the =E2=80=
=9Cyet another=E2=80=9D prefix. To me it is belittling, without adding any =
useful semantics. It may have been fun when YACC came about (1970 or so), b=
ut IMHO not since.
    

     
    

    =C2=A0
    

    Thanks,
    

    =C2=A0
    

    =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Yaron
    

    =C2=A0
    

     
    

    =C2=A0
    

    From: Txauth <txauth-bounces@ietf.org> on behal=
f of Mike Jones <Michael.Jones=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org=
>
    

    Date: Wednesday, April 22, 2020 at 04:20=

    

    To: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>, "txauth@ietf.org" <=
a href=3D"mailto:txauth@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><txauth@ietf.org>=

    

    Subject: Re: [Txauth] alignment on Justin&#=
39;s use of "transactional" adjective
    

    =C2=A0
    

     
    

    =C2=A0
    

    -1 to =E2=80=9Ctransactional=E2=80=9D
    

    =C2=A0
    

     
    

    =C2=A0
    

    I and others have proposed many more accura=
te adjectives including:
    

    Disaggregated
    

    Componentized
    

    Build-Your-Own
    

    Do-It-Yourself
    

    Refactored
    

    Dismembered
    

    Yet Another
    

    Alternative
    

    Reimagined
    

    Back-end Based
    

     
    

    =C2=A0
    

    Let=E2=80=99s use one of them or find anoth=
er one.
    

    =C2=A0
    

     
    

    =C2=A0
    

    FYI, my current favorite name is YAAP =E2=
=80=93 Yet Another Authorization Protocol.
    

    =C2=A0
    

     
    

    =C2=A0
    

    =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
 -- Mike
    

    =C2=A0
    

     
    

    =C2=A0
    

    From: Txauth <txauth-bounces@ietf.org> On Behal=
f Of Dick Hardt
    

    Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2020 6:13 PM
    

    To: txauth@ietf.org
    

    Subject: [Txauth] alignment on Justin's=
 use of "transactional" adjective
    

    =C2=A0
    

     
    

    =C2=A0
    

    With the recent threads on the name, I'=
m going to make a push to get consensus. While there are many of you that d=
on't care, there are also many that do care (myself included)=

    

    =C2=A0
    

     
    

    =C2=A0
    

    There have been a number of people (includi=
ng myself) concerned with the protocol being called a transaction, there ma=
y be others (besides Justin) that are aligned with Justin's definition =
that have not felt a need to say anything. 
    

    =C2=A0
    

     
    

    =C2=A0
    

    So let's get some feedback:
    

    =C2=A0
    

     
    

    =C2=A0
    

    Transactional Authorization. It=E2=80=99s a=
n authorization that has aspects and components and artifacts of a transact=
ion. 
    

    =C2=A0
    

     
    

    =C2=A0
    

    If you are aligned using "transactiona=
l", please respond with a +1
    

    =C2=A0
    

     
    

    =C2=A0
    

    If you are not aligned, please respond with=
 a -1
    

    =C2=A0
    

     
    

    =C2=A0
    

    If you don't care, don't bother res=
ponding. :)
    

    =C2=A0
    

    -- Txauth mailing list Txauth@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/m=
ailman/listinfo/txauth 
    

    =C2=A0
    

    =C2=A0
    


    

    

    

    


    

    

    

    

    

    
This email and any attachments are for the sole use of the intended recipie=
nts and may be privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure=
 under law. Any distribution, printing or other use by anyone other than th=
e intended recipient is prohibited.
 If you are not an intended recipient, please contact the sender immediatel=
y, and permanently delete this email and its attachments.
    

    

    

Txauth mailing list
    
Txauth@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
    

    

--000000000000c3d2cc05a3e10594--


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Thread-Topic: [Txauth] Txauth Digest, Vol 8, Issue 17
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From nobody Wed Apr 22 07:39:41 2020
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From: Justin Richer 
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Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 10:39:35 -0400
Cc: txauth@ietf.org
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To: Dick Hardt 
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Subject: Re: [Txauth] alignment on Justin's use of "transactional" adjective
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+1 to transactional =E2=80=A6 but that=E2=80=99s no surprise.

As I=E2=80=99ve said before, I think it captures the nature of the kind =
of protocol we=E2=80=99re after, and this nature exists in both of the =
proposed input documents. There=E2=80=99s a setup, a process, and a =
conclusion. It=E2=80=99s atomic in that you either get a token or you =
get an error. It=E2=80=99s multi-party, and different parties can alter =
and contribute to the state while the transaction is in progress but not =
after it=E2=80=99s been concluded. There=E2=80=99s a flow of information =
with a specific result.

I=E2=80=99m really against the =E2=80=9CYet Another=E2=80=9D name family =
for the reasons Yaron suggested. I think it=E2=80=99s a joke, and a =
cruel one at that.

I=E2=80=99ve already responded to Mike=E2=80=99s list of proposed =
adjectives in detail as to why they aren=E2=80=99t "more accurate=E2=80=9D=
 as he claims on this thread.

 =E2=80=94 Justin


> On Apr 21, 2020, at 9:12 PM, Dick Hardt  wrote:
>=20
> With the recent threads on the name, I'm going to make a push to get =
consensus. While there are many of you that don't care, there are also =
many that do care (myself included)
>=20
> There have been a number of people (including myself) concerned with =
the protocol being called a transaction, there may be others (besides =
Justin) that are aligned with Justin's definition that have not felt a =
need to say anything.=20
>=20
> So let's get some feedback:
>=20
> Transactional Authorization. It=E2=80=99s an authorization that has =
aspects and components and artifacts of a transaction.=20
>=20
> If you are aligned using "transactional", please respond with a +1
>=20
> If you are not aligned, please respond with a -1
>=20
> If you don't care, don't bother responding. :)
> --=20
> Txauth mailing list
> Txauth@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth


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--000000000000e1ed6f05a3e236eb
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+1 to transactional.

--000000000000e1ed6f05a3e236eb
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    +1 to transactional.
    

--000000000000e1ed6f05a3e236eb--


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From: Brian Campbell 
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 14:56:16 -0600
Message-ID: 
To: Justin Richer 
Cc: Dick Hardt , txauth@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [Txauth] alignment on Justin's use of "transactional" adjective
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When I made the suggestion of YAAAAS

(for Yet Another Authorization And Authentication Specification) it was
indeed intended to be humorous. But not in an unkind way. The "Yet Another"
part certainly doesn't shy away from the reality that there are other
specifications in the space but it was mostly a vehicle to get to the
YAAAAS acronym. It's a common spelling of and nod to the first part of the
popular phrase "yas queen"
,
which has largely positive meaning. I suppose that could be criticized as
cultural appropriation but kinda feel like it's been so widely appropriated
already that it's fair use at this point.

On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 8:39 AM Justin Richer  wrote:


> I=E2=80=99m really against the =E2=80=9CYet Another=E2=80=9D name family =
for the reasons Yaron
> suggested. I think it=E2=80=99s a joke, and a cruel one at that.
>
 

--=20
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    When I made the suggestion of YAAAAS (=
for Yet Another Authorization And Authentication Specification) it was inde=
ed intended to be humorous. But not in an unkind way. The "Yet Another=
" part certainly doesn't shy away from the reality that there are =
other specifications in the space but it was mostly a vehicle to get to the=
 YAAAAS acronym. It's a common spelling of and nod to the first part of=
 the popular phrase "y=
as queen", which has largely positive meaning. I suppose that coul=
d be criticized as cultural appropriation but kinda feel like it's been=
 so widely appropriated already that it's fair use at this point. 
    <=
/div>

    On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 8:39 AM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote=
:
    <snip>
    
I=E2=80=99m really against the =E2=80=9CYet Another=E2=80=9D name family fo=
r the reasons Yaron suggested. I think it=E2=80=99s a joke, and a cruel one=
 at that.
    =C2=A0<snip>

    

    


    
<=
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From: "Hjelm, Bjorn" 
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 14:14:02 -0700
Message-ID: 
To: George Fletcher 
Cc: Yaron Sheffer , Mike Jones , Dick Hardt , "txauth@ietf.org" 
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Subject: Re: [Txauth] [E] Re: alignment on Justin's use of "transactional" adjective
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I'll echo George's comments and that, to me, TRADE was a more
representative naming convention to what I thought this effort was intended
to achieve.

BR,
Bjorn


On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 5:19 AM George Fletcher  wrote:

> Generally I'm -1 to "transactional" (though I fully admit I'm biased
> because I have an idea I'm calling "Transaction Tokens" [dealing with
> authorizing a single transaction within a micro-services like architectur=
e]
> :)
>
> I'm definitely against YAAP; largely for the reasons Yaron mentions.
>
> I'm a bit sad that TRADE is not a option because that was my preferred
> option.
>
> For XYZ/XAuth the authorization has a bit of shared component. It's kind
> of a negotiation between the client, the authorization server and the
> resource owner. This is in contrast to many centralized authorization
> models where authorization is granted based on the identity of the
> requestor.
>
> I'm really bad at naming but I'll throw this out there "Client Initiated
> Authorization" :)
>
> On 4/22/20 7:58 AM, Yaron Sheffer wrote:
>
> I am mostly in the Don=E2=80=99t Care camp on this. However:
>
>
> =E2=80=9Ctrade=E2=80=9D is the name of a concluded working group, so it=
=E2=80=99s not an option.
> I personally don=E2=80=99t like the =E2=80=9Cyet another=E2=80=9D prefix.=
 To me it is belittling, without adding any useful semantics. It may have b=
een fun when YACC came about (1970 or so), but IMHO not since.
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>                 Yaron
>
>
>
> From: Txauth   on behal=
f of Mike Jones  
> Date: Wednesday, April 22, 2020 at 04:20
> To: Dick Hardt  , "txauth@iet=
f.org"   
> Subject: Re: [Txauth] alignment on Justin's use of "transactional" adject=
ive
>
>
>
> -1 to =E2=80=9Ctransactional=E2=80=9D
>
>
>
> I and others have proposed many more accurate adjectives including:
> Disaggregated
> Componentized
> Build-Your-Own
> Do-It-Yourself
> Refactored
> Dismembered
> Yet Another
> Alternative
> Reimagined
> Back-end Based
>
>
> Let=E2=80=99s use one of them or find another one.
>
>
>
> FYI, my current favorite name is YAAP =E2=80=93 Yet Another Authorization=
 Protocol.
>
>
>
>                                                           -- Mike
>
>
>
> From: Txauth   On Behal=
f Of Dick Hardt
> Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2020 6:13 PM
> To: txauth@ietf.org
> Subject: [Txauth] alignment on Justin's use of "transactional" adjective
>
>
>
> With the recent threads on the name, I'm going to make a push to get cons=
ensus. While there are many of you that don't care, there are also many tha=
t do care (myself included)
>
>
>
> There have been a number of people (including myself) concerned with the =
protocol being called a transaction, there may be others (besides Justin) t=
hat are aligned with Justin's definition that have not felt a need to say a=
nything.
>
>
>
> So let's get some feedback:
>
>
>
> Transactional Authorization. It=E2=80=99s an authorization that has aspec=
ts and components and artifacts of a transaction.
>
>
>
> If you are aligned using "transactional", please respond with a +1
>
>
>
> If you are not aligned, please respond with a -1
>
>
>
> If you don't care, don't bother responding. :)
>
> -- Txauth mailing list Txauth@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listi=
nfo/txauth 
>
>
>
> --
> Txauth mailing list
> Txauth@ietf.org
>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailm=
an_listinfo_txauth&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DudBTRvFvXC5Dhqg7UHpJlPps3mZ3LRxpb6__0PomB=
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    I'll echo George's comments and that, to me, TRADE=
 was a more representative=C2=A0naming convention to what I thought this ef=
fort was intended to achieve.

    BR,
    Bjorn


    On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 5:=
19 AM George Fletcher <gffletch=3D40aol.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
    
 =20
   =20
 =20
  
    
    Generally I'm -1 to
      "transactional" (though I fully admit I'm biased becaus=
e I have an
      idea I'm calling "Transaction Tokens" [dealing with aut=
horizing a
      single transaction within a micro-services like architecture] :)
    
      
    
      I'm definitely against YAAP; largely for the reasons Yaron
      mentions.
    
      
    
      I'm a bit sad that TRADE is not a option because that was my
      preferred option.
    
      
    
      For XYZ/XAuth the authorization has a bit of shared component.
      It's kind of a negotiation between the client, the authorization
      server and the resource owner. This is in contrast to many
      centralized authorization models where authorization is granted
      based on the identity of the requestor.
    
      
    
      I'm really bad at naming but I'll throw this out there "=
Client
      Initiated Authorization" :)
    
    
    
    
    On 4/22/20 7:58 AM, Yaron Sheffer
      wrote:
    
    
    
    
    
      
    I am mostly in the Don=E2=80=99t Care camp on this. However:

=20
=E2=80=9Ctrade=E2=80=9D is the name of a concluded working group, so it=E2=
=80=99s not an option.
I personally don=E2=80=99t like the =E2=80=9Cyet another=E2=80=9D prefix. T=
o me it is belittling, without adding any useful semantics. It may have bee=
n fun when YACC came about (1970 or so), but IMHO not since.
=20

Thanks,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Yaron

=20

From: Txauth &=
lt;txauth-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Mike Jones <Mic=
hael.Jones=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Date: Wednesday, April 22, 2020 at 04:20
To: Dick Hardt &l=
t;dick.hardt@gmail.com>, "txauth@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Txauth] alignment on Justin's use of "transactional&=
quot; adjective

=20

-1 to =E2=80=9Ctransactional=E2=80=9D

=20

I and others have proposed many more accurate adjectives including:
Disaggregated
Componentized
Build-Your-Own
Do-It-Yourself
Refactored
Dismembered
Yet Another
Alternative
Reimagined
Back-end Based
=20

Let=E2=80=99s use one of them or find another one.

=20

FYI, my current favorite name is YAAP =E2=80=93 Yet Another Authorization P=
rotocol.

=20

                                                          -- Mike

=20

From: Txauth &=
lt;txauth-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Dick Hardt
Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2020 6:13 PM
To: txauth@ietf.org
Subject: [Txauth] alignment on Justin's use of "transactional"=
; adjective

=20

With the recent threads on the name, I'm going to make a push to get co=
nsensus. While there are many of you that don't care, there are also ma=
ny that do care (myself included)

=20

There have been a number of people (including myself) concerned with the pr=
otocol being called a transaction, there may be others (besides Justin) tha=
t are aligned with Justin's definition that have not felt a need to say=
 anything.=20

=20

So let's get some feedback:

=20

Transactional Authorization. It=E2=80=99s an authorization that has aspects=
 and components and artifacts of a transaction.=20

=20

If you are aligned using "transactional", please respond with a +=
1

=20

If you are not aligned, please respond with a -1

=20

If you don't care, don't bother responding. :)

-- Txauth mailing list Txauth@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth=20



    
      
    
      
    
    
    
    
    
  
    

-- 
    
Txauth mailing list
    
Txauth@ietf.org
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From: Vittorio Bertocci 
To: Brian Campbell , Justin Richer 
CC: "txauth@ietf.org" , Dick Hardt 
Thread-Topic: [Txauth] alignment on Justin's use of "transactional" adjective
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FWIW, I never saw the proposal as a joke, and definitely not cruel- it=92s =
humorous for sure, but in the insider joke way that is typical of computer =
science.
There are plenty of very successful endeavors and technologies listed in ht=
tps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yet_another that back that point IMO, without t=
he need to go all the way back to the 70=92s.

From: Txauth  on behalf of Brian Campbell 
Date: Wednesday, April 22, 2020 at 13:56
To: Justin Richer 
Cc: "txauth@ietf.org" , Dick Hardt 
Subject: Re: [Txauth] alignment on Justin's use of "transactional" adjectiv=
e

When I made the suggestion of YAAAAS (for Yet Another Authorization And Aut=
hentication Specification) it was indeed intended to be humorous. But not i=
n an unkind way. The "Yet Another" part certainly doesn't shy away from the=
 reality that there are other specifications in the space but it was mostly=
 a vehicle to get to the YAAAAS acronym. It's a common spelling of and nod =
to the first part of the popular phrase "yas queen", which has largely positive meaning. I suppose that could be =
criticized as cultural appropriation but kinda feel like it's been so widel=
y appropriated already that it's fair use at this point.

On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 8:39 AM Justin Richer > wrote:

I=92m really against the =93Yet Another=94 name family for the reasons Yaro=
n suggested. I think it=92s a joke, and a cruel one at that.
 

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email may contain confidential and privileged =
material for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). Any review, use, di=
stribution or disclosure by others is strictly prohibited..  If you have re=
ceived this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by=
 e-mail and delete the message and any file attachments from your computer.=
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    FWIW, I never saw the proposal as a joke, and defini=
tely not cruel- it=92s humorous for sure, but in the insider joke way that =
is typical of computer science.

    

    There are plenty of very successful endeavors and te=
chnologies listed in
https://en.wikipedia.=
org/wiki/Yet_another that back that point IMO, without the need to go a=
ll the way back to the 70=92s.

    

     
    

    

    From=
: Txauth <txauth=
-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Brian Campbell <bcampbell=3D40pingide=
ntity.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
    
Date: Wednesday, April 22, 2020 at 13:56
    
To: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
    
Cc: "txauth@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf.org>, Dick Hardt =
<dick.hardt@gmail.com>
    
Subject: Re: [Txauth] alignment on Justin's use of "transaction=
al" adjective
    

    

    

     
    

    

    

    

    When I made the 
suggestion of YAAAAS (for Yet Another Authorization And Authentication =
Specification) it was indeed intended to be humorous. But not in an unkind =
way. The "Yet Another" part certainly doesn't shy away from the r=
eality that there are other specifications
 in the space but it was mostly a vehicle to get to the YAAAAS acronym. It'=
s a common spelling of and nod to the first part of the popular phrase

"yas queen", which has largely positive meaning. I suppose th=
at could be criticized as cultural appropriation but kinda feel like it's b=
een so widely appropriated already that it's fair use at this point.

    

    

    

     
    

    

    

    On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 8:39 AM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> =
wrote:
    

    

    

    <snip>
    

    

    

    

    I=92m really against the =93Yet Another=94 name fami=
ly for the reasons Yaron suggested. I think it=92s a joke, and a cruel one =
at that.
    

    

    

    

     <snip> 
    

    

    

    

    


    
CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email may contain confident=
ial and privileged material for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). =
Any review, use, distribution or disclosure
 by others is strictly prohibited..  If you have received this communi=
cation in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail and delete =
the message and any file attachments from your computer. Thank you.<=
/i>

    

    



--_000_MWHPR19MB15014B9939DB725096340104AED20MWHPR19MB1501namp_--


From nobody Wed Apr 22 14:36:25 2020
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From: Justin Richer 
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Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 17:36:18 -0400
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Subject: [Txauth] New version of XYZ
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I=E2=80=99ve updated the XYZ code, site, and specification text to add a =
couple of interesting ideas from XAuth. In particular:=20

1: You can now send an OPTIONS request to the transaction endpoint to =
get back a JSON document. I=E2=80=99m still not positive what needs to =
go in there, since the protocol is designed to allow a fully dynamic =
interaction without a separate discovery step. Having a a separate step =
for required discovery has been shown to have negative security =
ramifications in OAuth 2, but it could allow for a smarter client to =
perform an optimized request for a given AS. What I=E2=80=99ve spec=E2=80=99=
d out so far is listing out the possible values for interaction, claims, =
proofing methods, and capabilities. I could see resource types (from =
RAR) and other things going in there as well. In all cases, the client =
doesn=E2=80=99t :need: this information to call the tx endpoint, but it =
might help in some cases.

2: You can now sign the request to the transaction endpoint using an =
internal JWS. This requires the body to be of type application/Jose =
instead of application/json, and so the normative language around that =
is a little weird. We implemented AS support for this in our Java server =
by using a filter to check for JOSE on the way in and extracting the =
JSON payload, which is then processed like a regular JSON request would =
be. This kind of filtering could be done with a termination proxy as =
well, which might be how a lot of the key proofing is handled in =
practice (especially MTLS).=20

As always, the site has more detail and explanation: https://oauth.xyz/ =


The code is up on GitHub.

 =E2=80=94 Justin

> A new version of I-D, draft-richer-transactional-authz-08.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Justin Richer and posted to the
> IETF repository.
>=20
> Name:		draft-richer-transactional-authz
> Revision:	08
> Title:		Transactional Authorization
> Document date:	2020-04-22
> Group:		Individual Submission
> Pages:		35
> URL:            =
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-richer-transactional-authz-08.t=
xt
> Status:         =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-richer-transactional-authz/
> Htmlized:       =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-richer-transactional-authz-08
> Htmlized:       =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-richer-transactional-authz
> Diff:           =
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-richer-transactional-authz-08
>=20
> Abstract:
>   This document defines a mechanism for delegating authorization to a
>   piece of software, and conveying that delegation to the software.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of =
submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>=20
> The IETF Secretariat
>=20
>=20


--Apple-Mail=_1B5FF1F1-499F-4523-9889-5FBFD7291DD7
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

I=E2=80=99ve updated the XYZ code, site, and specification =
text to add a couple of interesting ideas from XAuth. In =
particular: 

    1: =
You can now send an OPTIONS request to the transaction endpoint to get =
back a JSON document. I=E2=80=99m still not positive what needs to go in =
there, since the protocol is designed to allow a fully dynamic =
interaction without a separate discovery step. Having a a separate step =
for required discovery has been shown to have negative security =
ramifications in OAuth 2, but it could allow for a smarter client to =
perform an optimized request for a given AS. What I=E2=80=99ve spec=E2=80=99=
d out so far is listing out the possible values for interaction, claims, =
proofing methods, and capabilities. I could see resource types (from =
RAR) and other things going in there as well. In all cases, the client =
doesn=E2=80=99t :need: this information to call the tx endpoint, but it =
might help in some cases.

    2: You can now sign the request to the transaction endpoint =
using an internal JWS. This requires the body to be of type =
application/Jose instead of application/json, and so the normative =
language around that is a little weird. We implemented AS support for =
this in our Java server by using a filter to check for JOSE on the way =
in and extracting the JSON payload, which is then processed like a =
regular JSON request would be. This kind of filtering could be done with =
a termination proxy as well, which might be how a lot of the key =
proofing is handled in practice (especially MTLS). 

    As always, the site has =
more detail and explanation: https://oauth.xyz/

    The code is up on GitHub.

     =E2=80=94 =
Justin
    


    A=
 new version of I-D, draft-richer-transactional-authz-08.txt
    has been successfully submitted by Justin =
Richer and posted to the
    IETF repository.

    Name:	=
	=
draft-richer-transactional-authz
    Revision:	08
    Title:=
		=
Transactional Authorization
    Document date:	=
2020-04-22
    Group:		Individual Submission
    Pages:=
		=
35
    URL: =
           https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-richer-transactional=
-authz-08.txt
    Status: =
        https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-richer-transactional-aut=
hz/
    Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-richer-transactional-authz-08=

    Htmlized:       https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-richer-transactiona=
l-authz
    Diff: =
          https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-richer-transactional-=
authz-08

    Abstract:
     =
  This document defines a mechanism for delegating =
authorization to a
       piece of software, and =
conveying that delegation to the software.





    Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the =
time of submission
    until the htmlized version and diff are =
available at tools.ietf.org.

    The IETF =
Secretariat



    =

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From nobody Wed Apr 22 14:48:40 2020
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From: Justin Richer 
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To: Vittorio Bertocci 
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I found the suggestion wholly dismissive of the effort and work that=E2=80=
=99s gone into this to date, and will go into it going forward.

=46rom the wikipedia page you linked, this is used to indicate the =
=E2=80=9Cname of a computer program =
, organisation, or event =
that is confessedly unoriginal.=E2=80=9D

In other words, nothing new or interesting to see here. Considering that =
the suggestion came from someone who has stated publicly that they =
don=E2=80=99t see the value in this work at all, I took it largely as =
jab, whether it was intended as one or not.

I understand that it was intended to be humorous and I get the intended =
joke, but I still don=E2=80=99t like the joke. Even with the best of =
intentions, I really don=E2=80=99t like how the name feels. It reeks of =
=E2=80=9Coh here we go again, why are we doing this, aren't we just =
idiots or something??=E2=80=9D

 =E2=80=94 Justin

> On Apr 22, 2020, at 5:33 PM, Vittorio Bertocci =
 wrote:
>=20
> FWIW, I never saw the proposal as a joke, and definitely not cruel- =
it=E2=80=99s humorous for sure, but in the insider joke way that is =
typical of computer science.
> There are plenty of very successful endeavors and technologies listed =
in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yet_another =
 that back that point IMO, =
without the need to go all the way back to the 70=E2=80=99s.
> =20
> From: Txauth  on behalf of Brian Campbell =

> Date: Wednesday, April 22, 2020 at 13:56
> To: Justin Richer 
> Cc: "txauth@ietf.org" , Dick Hardt =

> Subject: Re: [Txauth] alignment on Justin's use of "transactional" =
adjective
> =20
> When I made the suggestion of YAAAAS =
 (for Yet Another Authorization And Authentication Specification) it =
was indeed intended to be humorous. But not in an unkind way. The "Yet =
Another" part certainly doesn't shy away from the reality that there are =
other specifications in the space but it was mostly a vehicle to get to =
the YAAAAS acronym. It's a common spelling of and nod to the first part =
of the popular phrase "yas queen" =
, which has largely positive =
meaning. I suppose that could be criticized as cultural appropriation =
but kinda feel like it's been so widely appropriated already that it's =
fair use at this point.
> =20
> On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 8:39 AM Justin Richer > wrote:
> 
> I=E2=80=99m really against the =E2=80=9CYet Another=E2=80=9D name =
family for the reasons Yaron suggested. I think it=E2=80=99s a joke, and =
a cruel one at that.
>  =20
>=20
> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email may contain confidential and =
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I =
found the suggestion wholly dismissive of the effort and work that=E2=80=99=
s gone into this to date, and will go into it going forward.

    =46rom the wikipedia =
page you linked, this is used to indicate the =E2=80=9Cname of a computer program, organisation, or event that is =
confessedly unoriginal.=E2=80=9D

    In other words, nothing =
new or interesting to see here. Considering that the suggestion came =
from someone who has stated publicly that they don=E2=80=99t see the =
value in this work at all, I took it largely as jab, whether it was =
intended as one or not.

    I understand that it was intended to be humorous and I get =
the intended joke, but I still don=E2=80=99t like the joke. Even with =
the best of intentions, I really don=E2=80=99t like how the name feels. =
It reeks of =E2=80=9Coh here we go again, why are we doing this, aren't =
we just idiots or something??=E2=80=9D

     =E2=80=94 Justin

    On Apr 22, 2020, at 5:33 PM, Vittorio =
Bertocci <vittorio.bertocci@auth0.com> wrote:

    FWIW, I =
never saw the proposal as a joke, and definitely not cruel- it=E2=80=99s =
humorous for sure, but in the insider joke way that is typical of =
computer science.
    There are plenty of very successful endeavors and =
technologies listed in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yet_another that back that point IMO, =
without the need to go all the way back to the 70=E2=80=99s.
     
    From: Txauth <txauth-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Brian Campbell =
<bcampbell=3D40pingidentity.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
    Date: Wednesday, April 22, =
2020 at 13:56
    To: Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
    Cc: "txauth@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf.org>, Dick =
Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: [Txauth] alignment =
on Justin's use of "transactional" adjective
     
    When I made the suggestion of YAAAAS (for Yet Another =
Authorization And Authentication Specification) it was indeed intended =
to be humorous. But not in an unkind way. The "Yet Another" part =
certainly doesn't shy away from the reality that there are other =
specifications in the space but it was mostly a vehicle to get to the =
YAAAAS acronym. It's a common spelling of and nod to the first part of =
the popular phrase "yas queen", which has =
largely positive meaning. I suppose that could be criticized as cultural =
appropriation but kinda feel like it's been so widely appropriated =
already that it's fair use at this point.
     
    On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at =
8:39 AM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:
    <snip>
    I=E2=80=99m really against the =E2=80=9CY=
et Another=E2=80=9D name family for the reasons Yaron suggested. I think =
it=E2=80=99s a joke, and a cruel one at that.
     <snip> 

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Thank you.

    =

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In-Reply-To: 
From: Dick Hardt 
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 15:43:52 -0700
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To: Mike Varley 
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On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 5:55 AM Mike Varley 
wrote:

> ... the intent of the protocol, which to my mind can be summarized as:
>
> There is a pre-flight setup transaction required by clients to
> authorization servers before the OAuth request/response (transaction)
> process can begin
>


This is also what I think it the major change to the protocol.

/Dick

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    =

    On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 5:55 AM Mike =
Varley <mike.varley@securek=
ey.com> wrote:
    






    

    

    ... the intent of the protocol, which to my mind can=
 be summarized as:
    

    There is a pre-flight setup transaction required by =
clients to authorization servers before the OAuth request/response (transac=
tion) process can begin 
    <snip>

    This is also what I think it the major change to the p=
rotocol.

    /Dick
    

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From: Mike Jones 
To: Dick Hardt , Mike Varley 
CC: "txauth@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [Txauth] alignment on Justin's use of "transactional" adjective
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To: Mike Jones 
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Subject: Re: [Txauth] alignment on Justin's use of "transactional" adjective
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Phased Auth =E2=80=94 PhAuth.

 =E2=80=94 Justin

> On Apr 22, 2020, at 6:55 PM, Mike Jones =
 wrote:
>=20
> Then perhaps a few accurate and descriptive protocol names that we =
could consider would be:
> =20
>               Multi-Step Authorization Protocol (MSAP)
>               Multi-Phase Authorization Protocol (MPAP)
> =20
>                                                           -- Mike
> =20
> From: Txauth > On Behalf Of Dick Hardt
> Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2020 3:44 PM
> To: Mike Varley >
> Cc: txauth@ietf.org 
> Subject: Re: [Txauth] alignment on Justin's use of "transactional" =
adjective
> =20
> =20
> =20
> On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 5:55 AM Mike Varley > wrote:
> ... the intent of the protocol, which to my mind can be summarized as:
> There is a pre-flight setup transaction required by clients to =
authorization servers before the OAuth request/response (transaction) =
process can begin
> 
> =20
> This is also what I think it the major change to the protocol.
> =20
> /Dick
> --=20
> Txauth mailing list
> Txauth@ietf.org 
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth =


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Phased Auth =E2=80=94 PhAuth.

     =E2=80=94 Justin

    On Apr 22, 2020, at 6:55 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org> =
wrote:

    Then perhaps a few accurate =
and descriptive protocol names that we could consider would be:
     
              &nb=
sp;   Multi-Step Authorization Protocol (MSAP)
              &nb=
sp;   Multi-Phase Authorization Protocol (MPAP)
     
              &nb=
sp;            =
;            &=
nbsp;           &nb=
sp;          -- Mike
     
    From: Txauth <txauth-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf =
Of Dick Hardt
    Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2020 =
3:44 PM
    To: Mike Varley <mike.varley@securekey.com>
    Cc: txauth@ietf.org
    Subject: Re: [Txauth] alignment on =
Justin's use of "transactional" adjective
     
     
     
    On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at =
5:55 AM Mike Varley <mike.varley@securekey.com> wrote:
    ... the intent of the =
protocol, which to my mind can be summarized as:
    There is a pre-flight setup transaction =
required by clients to authorization servers before the OAuth =
request/response (transaction) process can begin
    <snip>
     
    This is also what I think it the major =
change to the protocol.
     
    /Dick
    -- 
    Txauth mailing list
    Txauth@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth

    =

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> On Apr 22, 2020, at 6:43 PM, Dick Hardt  wrote:
>=20
> On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 5:55 AM Mike Varley > wrote:
> ... the intent of the protocol, which to my mind can be summarized as:
>=20
> There is a pre-flight setup transaction required by clients to =
authorization servers before the OAuth request/response (transaction) =
process can begin
>=20
> 
>=20
> This is also what I think it the major change to the protocol.

It=E2=80=99s one major change, but if that were all then we=E2=80=99d be =
fine with just developing PAR on top of OAuth 2.

Another major change is the interaction model moving away from assuming =
everyone=E2=80=99s in a browser.=20

Another major change is moving away from the assumption that clients are =
web servers that have been pre-registered.

There are plenty more aspects, as have been enumerated in the proposed =
charter text that got general support.

 =E2=80=94 Justin


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    On =
Apr 22, 2020, at 6:43 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 5:55 AM Mike =
Varley <mike.varley@securekey.com> wrote:
    






    

    ... the intent of the protocol, which to my mind can =
be summarized as:
    There is a pre-flight setup =
transaction required by clients to authorization servers before the =
OAuth request/response (transaction) process can begin =

    <snip>

    This is also what I =
think it the major change to the =
protocol.

    It=E2=80=99s one major change, but if that were =
all then we=E2=80=99d be fine with just developing PAR on top of OAuth =
2.

    Another major change is the =
interaction model moving away from assuming everyone=E2=80=99s in a =
browser. 

    Another major change =
is moving away from the assumption that clients are web servers that =
have been pre-registered.

    There are =
plenty more aspects, as have been enumerated in the proposed charter =
text that got general support.

     =E2=80=94 Justin

    =

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Subject: Re: [Txauth] alignment on Justin's use of "transactional" adjective
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-1 to transactional, due to the confusion it will cause by its use as =
part of a different technical process. In addition to not involving =
three-phase commits or the like, the protocol does not complete after =
initial authentication/authorization - gathered information and consent =
may be leveraged to mint additional refreshed authorization tokens.

IMHO, better terms would revolve around the aspects of =
intermediation/arbitration by the AS-equivalent.

-DW

> On Apr 22, 2020, at 8:39 AM, Justin Richer  wrote:
>=20
> +1 to transactional =E2=80=A6 but that=E2=80=99s no surprise.
>=20
> As I=E2=80=99ve said before, I think it captures the nature of the =
kind of protocol we=E2=80=99re after, and this nature exists in both of =
the proposed input documents. There=E2=80=99s a setup, a process, and a =
conclusion. It=E2=80=99s atomic in that you either get a token or you =
get an error. It=E2=80=99s multi-party, and different parties can alter =
and contribute to the state while the transaction is in progress but not =
after it=E2=80=99s been concluded. There=E2=80=99s a flow of information =
with a specific result.
>=20
> I=E2=80=99m really against the =E2=80=9CYet Another=E2=80=9D name =
family for the reasons Yaron suggested. I think it=E2=80=99s a joke, and =
a cruel one at that.
>=20
> I=E2=80=99ve already responded to Mike=E2=80=99s list of proposed =
adjectives in detail as to why they aren=E2=80=99t "more accurate=E2=80=9D=
 as he claims on this thread.
>=20
> =E2=80=94 Justin
>=20
>=20
>> On Apr 21, 2020, at 9:12 PM, Dick Hardt  wrote:
>>=20
>> With the recent threads on the name, I'm going to make a push to get =
consensus. While there are many of you that don't care, there are also =
many that do care (myself included)
>>=20
>> There have been a number of people (including myself) concerned with =
the protocol being called a transaction, there may be others (besides =
Justin) that are aligned with Justin's definition that have not felt a =
need to say anything.=20
>>=20
>> So let's get some feedback:
>>=20
>> Transactional Authorization. It=E2=80=99s an authorization that has =
aspects and components and artifacts of a transaction.=20
>>=20
>> If you are aligned using "transactional", please respond with a +1
>>=20
>> If you are not aligned, please respond with a -1
>>=20
>> If you don't care, don't bother responding. :)
>> --=20
>> Txauth mailing list
>> Txauth@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>=20
> --=20
> Txauth mailing list
> Txauth@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth


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From: Mike Varley 
To: Mike Jones 
CC: Dick Hardt , "txauth@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [Txauth] alignment on Justin's use of "transactional" adjective
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From: Fabien Imbault 
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 16:06:44 +0200
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To: txauth@ietf.org
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Subject: [Txauth] alignment on Justin's use of "transactional" adjective
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+1 to NAP proposed by Mike.

With that I'll rest easy (in software and elsewhere) ;-)

NAuth would do too (N for negociated)?

Fabien

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    +1 to NAP proposed by Mike.
    =

    With that I'll rest easy (in software and elsewhere) ;-)
    NAuth would do too (N for negociated)?
    Fabien
    

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I=E2=80=99d be a little of the =E2=80=9CN=E2=80=9D coming off as =
=E2=80=9Cnegative=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cnot=E2=80=9D. As in, this is =
=E2=80=9Cnot auth=E2=80=9D. :P

 =E2=80=94 Justin

> On Apr 23, 2020, at 10:06 AM, Fabien Imbault =
 wrote:
>=20
> +1 to NAP proposed by Mike.
> With that I'll rest easy (in software and elsewhere) ;-)
> NAuth would do too (N for negociated)?
> Fabien
> --=20
> Txauth mailing list
> Txauth@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth


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I=E2=80=
=99d be a little of the =E2=80=9CN=E2=80=9D coming off as =E2=80=9Cnegativ=
e=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cnot=E2=80=9D. As in, this is =E2=80=9Cnot =
auth=E2=80=9D. :P

     =E2=80=94 Justin

    On Apr =
23, 2020, at 10:06 AM, Fabien Imbault <fabien.imbault@gmail.com> wrote:

    +1 =
to NAP=
 proposed by Mike.
    With that I'll rest easy (in software and elsewhere) =
;-)
    NAuth would do too (N for negociated)?
    Fabien
    
-- 
    Txauth mailing list
    Txauth@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth

    =

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From: Fabien Imbault 
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 16:54:09 +0200
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Yes indeed, it would happen.
ah... naming things...

On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 4:31 PM Justin Richer  wrote:

> I=E2=80=99d be a little of the =E2=80=9CN=E2=80=9D coming off as =E2=80=
=9Cnegative=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cnot=E2=80=9D. As in, this
> is =E2=80=9Cnot auth=E2=80=9D. :P
>
>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>
> On Apr 23, 2020, at 10:06 AM, Fabien Imbault 
> wrote:
>
> +1 to NAP proposed by Mike.
>
> With that I'll rest easy (in software and elsewhere) ;-)
>
> NAuth would do too (N for negociated)?
>
> Fabien
>
> --
> Txauth mailing list
> Txauth@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>
>
>

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    Yes indeed, it would happen.
    ah... naming t=
hings...=C2=A0

    <=
div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 4:31 PM Justin=
 Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrot=
e:
    I=E2=80=99d be a little of the =E2=80=9CN=E2=
=80=9D coming off as =E2=80=9Cnegative=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cnot=E2=80=9D. A=
s in, this is =E2=80=9Cnot auth=E2=80=9D. :P

    =C2=A0=E2=
=80=94 Justin

    On Apr 23, 2020, a=
t 10:06 AM, Fabien Imbault <fabien.imbault@gmail.com> wrote:

    +1 to NAP proposed by Mike.
    With that I'll=
 rest easy (in software and elsewhere) ;-)
    NAuth would do too (N for negociated)?
    Fabien
    <=
/div>
    
-- 
    Txauth mailing list
    Txauth@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth=


    

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Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 11:57:30 -0400
From: "Amanjeev Sethi" 
To: "Fabien Imbault" , "Justin Richer" 
Cc: txauth@ietf.org
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Late to the party.=20

Reading Justin's docs, the term "intent-based" stands out to me. I do no=
t have any issues with "transaction". But a few more could be -

- Intent Driven Auth (IDAuth)
- Client Intent Origin Auth (CIOAuth)
- Client Intent Driven Auth (CIDAuth)
- Transaction and Intent Driven Yield Auth (TIDYAuth)
- Transaction and Intent Driven Extension Auth (TIDEAuth)
- Transaction and Intent-Driven Extension Auth (TIEAuth)

AJ


On Thu, Apr 23, 2020, at 10:54 AM, Fabien Imbault wrote:
> Yes indeed, it would happen.
> ah... naming things...=20
>=20
>=20
> On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 4:31 PM Justin Richer  wrote:=

>> I=E2=80=99d be a little of the =E2=80=9CN=E2=80=9D coming off as =E2=80=
=9Cnegative=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cnot=E2=80=9D. As in, this is =E2=80=9Cn=
ot auth=E2=80=9D. :P
>>=20
>>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>>=20
>>> On Apr 23, 2020, at 10:06 AM, Fabien Imbault  wrote:
>>>=20
>>> +1 to NAP proposed by Mike.
>>> With that I'll rest easy (in software and elsewhere) ;-)
>>> NAuth would do too (N for negociated)?
>>> Fabien
>>> --
>>> Txauth mailing list
>>> Txauth@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
> --=20
> Txauth mailing list
> Txauth@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>=20

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    Late to th=
e party. 

    Reading Justin's docs, the term "=
intent-based" stands out to me. I do not have any issues with "transacti=
on". But a few more could be -

    - Intent Dri=
ven Auth (IDAuth)
    - Client Intent Origin Auth (CIOAuth)
    - Client Intent Driven Auth (CIDAuth)
    - Transa=
ction and Intent Driven Yield Auth (TIDYAuth)
    - Transactio=
n and Intent Driven Extension Auth (TIDEAuth)
    - Transactio=
n and Intent-Driven Extension  Auth (TIEAuth)

    AJ


    On Thu, Apr 23, 2020, =
at 10:54 AM, Fabien Imbault wrote:
    Yes indeed, it would happen.
    ah... naming things... 

    <=
br>
    On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 4:31 PM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:
    I=E2=80=99d be a little of the =E2=
=80=9CN=E2=80=9D coming off as =E2=80=9Cnegative=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cno=
t=E2=80=9D. As in, this is =E2=80=9Cnot auth=E2=80=9D. :P
    =

     =E2=80=94 Justin

    =

    On Apr 23, 2020, at 10:06 AM, Fabien Imba=
ult <fa=
bien.imbault@gmail.com> wrote:

    +1 to NAP proposed b=
y Mike.
    With that I'll rest=
 easy (in software and elsewhere) ;-)
    NAuth would do =
too (N for negociated)?
    Fabien
    <=
div>--
    Txauth mailing list
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
    -- 
    =

    Txauth mailing list
    Txauth@ietf.org
    htt=
ps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth


    
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From: Fabien Imbault 
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 01:27:02 +0200
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To: Justin Richer 
Cc: txauth@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [Txauth] alignment on Justin's use of "transactional" adjective
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Maybe :

Transactional -> Negociated
Tx -> Ng
TxAuth -> NgAuth (which should also be fine with people that prefered
"nextgen").

 ?


Le jeu. 23 avr. 2020 =C3=A0 16:54, Fabien Imbault  a
=C3=A9crit :

> Yes indeed, it would happen.
> ah... naming things...
>
> On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 4:31 PM Justin Richer  wrote:
>
>> I=E2=80=99d be a little of the =E2=80=9CN=E2=80=9D coming off as =E2=80=
=9Cnegative=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cnot=E2=80=9D. As in, this
>> is =E2=80=9Cnot auth=E2=80=9D. :P
>>
>>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>>
>> On Apr 23, 2020, at 10:06 AM, Fabien Imbault 
>> wrote:
>>
>> +1 to NAP proposed by Mike.
>>
>> With that I'll rest easy (in software and elsewhere) ;-)
>>
>> NAuth would do too (N for negociated)?
>>
>> Fabien
>>
>> --
>> Txauth mailing list
>> Txauth@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>>
>>
>>

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    Maybe :

    Transactional -> Negociated
    Tx -> Ng
    TxAuth -> NgAuth (which should also be fine with pe=
ople that prefered "nextgen").=C2=A0

    <=
/div>
    =C2=A0?=C2=A0


    Le jeu. 23 avr. 2020 =C3=A0 16:54, Fabien Imbault <<=
a href=3D"mailto:fabien.imbault@gmail.com">fabien.imbault@gmail.com>=
 a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:
    Yes indeed, it would happen.
    ah... naming things...=C2=A0=


    On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 4:31 PM Justin Richer <jrich=
er@mit.edu> wrote:
    I=E2=80=99d be a little of the =E2=80=9CN=E2=80=9D coming o=
ff as =E2=80=9Cnegative=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cnot=E2=80=9D. As in, this is =
=E2=80=9Cnot auth=E2=80=9D. :P

    =C2=A0=E2=80=94 Justin

    On Apr 23, 2020, at 10:06 AM, Fabi=
en Imbault <fabien.imbault@gmail.com> wrote:

    =

    +1 to NAP proposed by Mike.
    =

    With that I'=
;ll rest easy (in software and elsewhere) ;-)
    NAuth would do too (N for negociated)?<=
/pre>
    Fabien
    
-- 
    Txauth mailing list
    Txauth@ietf.org
    https:=
//www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth

    =

    

    

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From: Dick Hardt 
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 18:09:21 -0700
Message-ID: 
To: Justin Richer 
Cc: Mike Varley , "txauth@ietf.org" 
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007f968105a3ff0513"
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Subject: Re: [Txauth] alignment on Justin's use of "transactional" adjective
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On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 5:20 PM Justin Richer  wrote:

> On Apr 22, 2020, at 6:43 PM, Dick Hardt  wrote:
>
> On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 5:55 AM Mike Varley 
> wrote:
>
>> ... the intent of the protocol, which to my mind can be summarized as:
>>
>> There is a pre-flight setup transaction required by clients to
>> authorization servers before the OAuth request/response (transaction)
>> process can begin
>>
> 
>
> This is also what I think it the major change to the protocol.
>
>
> It=E2=80=99s one major change, but if that were all then we=E2=80=99d be =
fine with just
> developing PAR on top of OAuth 2.
>
> Another major change is the interaction model moving away from assuming
> everyone=E2=80=99s in a browser.
>
> Another major change is moving away from the assumption that clients are
> web servers that have been pre-registered.
>

These are changes in the parties, and were supported in OAuth 2.0. We are
thinking of them up front here and improving how they are supported.

The ACTUAL protocol change (how the parties talk to each other) is that the
client ALWAYS talks to the AS first.

Lots of other aspects are being improved based on what we know now.
=E1=90=A7

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    =

    On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 5:20 PM Justi=
n Richer <jricher@m=
it.edu> wrote:
    On Apr 22, 2020, at 6:43 PM,=
 Dick Hardt <d=
ick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Wed, Apr 22, 202=
0 at 5:55 AM Mike Varley <mike.varley@securekey.com> wrote:
    






    

    ... the intent of the protocol, which to my min=
d can be summarized as:
    There is a pre-flight setup transaction required by clients =
to authorization servers before the OAuth request/response (transaction) pr=
ocess can begin 
    <snip>
    This is also what I think it the major change to the protocol.=


    It=E2=80=99s one major =
change, but if that were all then we=E2=80=99d be fine with just developing=
 PAR on top of OAuth 2.

    Another major change is th=
e interaction model moving away from assuming everyone=E2=80=99s in a brows=
er.=C2=A0

    Another major change is moving away from=
 the assumption that clients are web servers that have been pre-registered.=


    These are changes in the parti=
es, and were supported in OAuth 2.0. We are thinking of them up front here =
and improving how they are supported.

    The ACTUAL p=
rotocol change (how the parties talk to each other) is that the client ALWA=
YS talks to the AS first.=C2=A0

    Lots of other aspe=
cts are being improved based on what we know now.=C2=A0
    3D""=E1=90=A7

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From: Dick Hardt 
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 18:09:25 -0700
Message-ID: 
To: Justin Richer 
Cc: Mike Jones ,  Mike Varley , "txauth@ietf.org" 
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b8702e05a3ff05e3"
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Subject: Re: [Txauth] alignment on Justin's use of "transactional" adjective
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PAuth

Phased
Pre-flight

or what comes after OAuth (P comes after O)

On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 5:18 PM Justin Richer  wrote:

> Phased Auth =E2=80=94 PhAuth.
>
>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>
> On Apr 22, 2020, at 6:55 PM, Mike Jones <
> Michael.Jones=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>
> Then perhaps a few accurate and descriptive protocol names that we could
> consider would be:
>
>               Multi-Step Authorization Protocol (MSAP)
>               Multi-Phase Authorization Protocol (MPAP)
>
>                                                           -- Mike
>
> *From:* Txauth  *On Behalf Of *Dick Hardt
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 22, 2020 3:44 PM
> *To:* Mike Varley 
> *Cc:* txauth@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Txauth] alignment on Justin's use of "transactional"
> adjective
>
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 5:55 AM Mike Varley 
> wrote:
>
> ... the intent of the protocol, which to my mind can be summarized as:
> There is a pre-flight setup transaction required by clients to
> authorization servers before the OAuth request/response (transaction)
> process can begin
>
> 
>
> This is also what I think it the major change to the protocol.
>
> /Dick
> --
> Txauth mailing list
> Txauth@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>
>
> --
> Txauth mailing list
> Txauth@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>
=E1=90=A7

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-- 
    
Txauth mailing list
    
Txauth@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
    

    3D""=
=E1=90=A7
    

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From: Dick Hardt 
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 18:09:34 -0700
Message-ID: 
To: Justin Richer 
Cc: Brian Campbell ,  "txauth@ietf.org" 
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000041a79f05a3ff06fb"
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Subject: Re: [Txauth] alignment on Justin's use of "transactional" adjective
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Justin: Brian was pretty clear earlier in this thread what his intentions
were with the suggestion. Let's take him at his word.

Your response below did not add to the conversation, and potentially
alienated a valued member of the community.

/Dick


On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 2:48 PM Justin Richer  wrote:

> I found the suggestion wholly dismissive of the effort and work that=E2=
=80=99s
> gone into this to date, and will go into it going forward.
>
> From the wikipedia page you linked, this is used to indicate the =E2=80=
=9Cname of
> a computer program ,
> organisation, or event that is *confessedly unoriginal*.=E2=80=9D
>
> In other words, nothing new or interesting to see here. Considering that
> the suggestion came from someone who has stated publicly that they don=E2=
=80=99t
> see the value in this work at all, I took it largely as jab, whether it w=
as
> intended as one or not.
>
> I understand that it was intended to be humorous and I get the intended
> joke, but I still don=E2=80=99t like the joke. Even with the best of inte=
ntions, I
> really don=E2=80=99t like how the name feels. It reeks of =E2=80=9Coh her=
e we go again, why
> are we doing this, aren't we just idiots or something??=E2=80=9D
>
>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>
> On Apr 22, 2020, at 5:33 PM, Vittorio Bertocci <
> vittorio.bertocci@auth0.com> wrote:
>
> FWIW, I never saw the proposal as a joke, and definitely not cruel- it=E2=
=80=99s
> humorous for sure, but in the insider joke way that is typical of compute=
r
> science.
> There are plenty of very successful endeavors and technologies listed in
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yet_another that back that point IMO,
> without the need to go all the way back to the 70=E2=80=99s.
>
> *From: *Txauth  on behalf of Brian Campbell <
> bcampbell=3D40pingidentity.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
> *Date: *Wednesday, April 22, 2020 at 13:56
> *To: *Justin Richer 
> *Cc: *"txauth@ietf.org" , Dick Hardt <
> dick.hardt@gmail.com>
> *Subject: *Re: [Txauth] alignment on Justin's use of "transactional"
> adjective
>
> When I made the suggestion of YAAAAS
> 
>  (for Yet Another Authorization And Authentication Specification) it was
> indeed intended to be humorous. But not in an unkind way. The "Yet Anothe=
r"
> part certainly doesn't shy away from the reality that there are other
> specifications in the space but it was mostly a vehicle to get to the
> YAAAAS acronym. It's a common spelling of and nod to the first part of th=
e
> popular phrase "yas queen"
> ,
> which has largely positive meaning. I suppose that could be criticized as
> cultural appropriation but kinda feel like it's been so widely appropriat=
ed
> already that it's fair use at this point.
>
> On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 8:39 AM Justin Richer  wrote:
> 
>
> I=E2=80=99m really against the =E2=80=9CYet Another=E2=80=9D name family =
for the reasons Yaron
> suggested. I think it=E2=80=99s a joke, and a cruel one at that.
>
>  
>
> *CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email may contain confidential and
> privileged material for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). Any
> review, use, distribution or disclosure by others is strictly prohibited.=
.
> If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sende=
r
> immediately by e-mail and delete the message and any file attachments fro=
m
> your computer. Thank you.*
>
>
> --
> Txauth mailing list
> Txauth@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>
=E1=90=A7

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    <chair hat>
    <=
br>
    Justin: Brian was pretty=C2=A0clear earlier in th=
is thread what his intentions were with the suggestion. Let's take him =
at his word.=C2=A0

    Your re=
sponse below did not add to the conversation, and potentially alienated a v=
alued member=C2=A0of the community.

    /D=
ick


    On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 2:48 PM Justin Richer=
 <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:
    I found the suggestion wholly dismissive of the effort and work that=E2=
=80=99s gone into this to date, and will go into it going forward.

    =


    In other words, nothing new or interesting to see here. Co=
nsidering that the suggestion came from someone who has stated publicly tha=
t they don=E2=80=99t see the value in this work at all, I took it largely a=
s jab, whether it was intended as one or not.

    I un=
derstand that it was intended to be humorous and I get the intended joke, b=
ut I still don=E2=80=99t like the joke. Even with the best of intentions, I=
 really don=E2=80=99t like how the name feels. It reeks of =E2=80=9Coh here=
 we go again, why are we doing this, aren't we just idiots or something=
??=E2=80=9D

    =C2=A0=E2=80=94 Justin
    =


    On Apr 22, 2020, at 5:33 PM, Vittor=
io Bertocci <vittorio.bertocci@auth0.com> wrote:

    FWIW, I never saw the proposal as a joke, and definite=
ly not cruel- it=E2=80=99s humorous for sure, but in the insider joke way t=
hat is typical of computer science.
    There are =
plenty of very successful endeavors and technologies listed in=C2=A0<=
/span>https://en.wikipedia.or=
g/wiki/Yet_another=C2=A0that back that point IMO, without =
the need to go all the way back to the 70=E2=80=99s.
    =C2=A0
    From:=C2=A0Txauth <txauth-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf=
 of Brian Campbell <bcampbell=3D40pingidentity.com@dmarc.ietf.or=
g>
    Date:=C2=A0Wednesday, April 22, 2020 at 13=
:56
    To:=C2=A0Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
    Cc:=C2=
=A0"tx=
auth@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf.org>, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
    Subject:=C2=A0    Re: [Txauth] alignment on Justin's use of "tra=
nsactional" adjective
    =
=C2=A0
    When I made the=
=C2=A0suggestion of YAAAAS=C2=A0(for Yet Another=
 Authorization And Authentication Specification) it was indeed intended to =
be humorous. But not in an unkind way. The "Yet Another" part cer=
tainly doesn't shy away from the reality that there are other specifica=
tions in the space but it was mostly a vehicle to get to the YAAAAS acronym=
. It's a common spelling of and nod to the first part of the popular ph=
rase=C2=A0"yas qu=
een", which has largely positive meaning. I suppose that could be =
criticized as cultural appropriation but kinda feel like it's been so w=
idely appropriated already that it's fair use at this point.<=
/u>
    =C2=A0
    On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 8:39 AM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:
    =
<snip>
    =
I=E2=80=99m really against the =E2=80=9CYet Another=E2=80=9D name family fo=
r the reasons Yaron suggested. I think it=E2=80=99s a joke, and a cruel one=
 at that.
    =C2=A0<sn=
ip>=C2=A0

    CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email may contain=
 confidential and privileged material for the sole use of the intended reci=
pient(s). Any review, use, distribution or disclosure by others is strictly=
 prohibited..=C2=A0 If you have received this communication in error, pleas=
e notify the sender immediately by e-mail and delete the message and any fi=
le attachments from your computer. Thank you.

    -- 
    
Txauth mailing list
    
Txauth@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
    

    3D""=
=E1=90=A7
    

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From: Dick Hardt 
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To: txauth@ietf.org
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Twice as many people are -1 than +1 for "transactional" which indicates to
me we need a different name.

I'll propose a process in a new thread.
=E1=90=A7

On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 6:12 PM Dick Hardt  wrote:

> With the recent threads on the name, I'm going to make a push to get
> consensus. While there are many of you that don't care, there are also ma=
ny
> that do care (myself included)
>
> There have been a number of people (including myself) concerned with the
> protocol being called a transaction, there may be others (besides Justin)
> that are aligned with Justin's definition that have not felt a need to sa=
y
> anything.
>
> So let's get some feedback:
>
> Transactional Authorization. It=E2=80=99s an authorization that has aspec=
ts and
> components and artifacts of a transaction.
>
> If you are aligned using "transactional", please respond with a +1
>
> If you are not aligned, please respond with a -1
>
> If you don't care, don't bother responding. :)
>

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    Twice as many people are -1 than=C2=A0+1 for "transac=
tional" which indicates to me we need a different name.

    =

    I'll propose a process in a new thread.
    3D""=E1=90=
=A7

    On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 6:12 PM Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:=

    With the recent threads on the name, I'm going to make a push to=
 get consensus. While there are many of you that don't care, there are =
also many that do care (myself included)

    There have bee=
n a number of people (including myself) concerned=C2=A0with the protocol be=
ing called=C2=A0a transaction, there may be others (besides Justin) that ar=
e aligned with Justin's definition that have not felt a need to say any=
thing.=C2=A0

    So let's get some feedback:
    <=
div>
    Transactional Authorization. It=E2=80=99s an authorizati=
on that has aspects and components and artifacts of a transaction.=C2=A0

    If you are aligned using "transactional", pl=
ease respond with a=C2=A0+1

    If you are not aligned=
, please respond with a -1

    If you don't care, =
don't bother responding. :)
    


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From: Dick Hardt 
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 21:35:22 -0700
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Subject: [Txauth] name process
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Here is proposed naming process. Feel free to provide feedback and
suggestions. Again, if you don't care, then also feel free to opt out of
participating!

1. agree on criteria / metrics for name

Nigel posted some metrics that the Perl community used for the replacement
to Perl 6. That seems like a good place to start

I'll post another thread with the metrics.


2. brainstorm names

The fun part! All suggestions are welcome.


3. rank names according to metrics

Nigel has volunteered to build a page to list all suggestions with metrics

=E1=90=A7

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    Here is proposed=C2=A0naming process. Feel free to provide=
 feedback and suggestions. Again, if you don't care, then also feel fre=
e to opt out of participating!

    1. agree on criteria / metrics =
for name
    Nigel posted some metrics that the Perl community used for the=
 replacement to Perl 6. That seems like a good place to start
    I=
'll post another thread with the metrics.
    =

    2. brainstorm names
    The fun part! All suggestions are=C2=
=A0welcome.

    3. rank names accor=
ding to metrics
    Nigel has volunteered to build a page to list all sugge=
stions with metrics

    3D""=E1=90=A7

--00000000000045e1d505a401e673--


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To: Dick Hardt , txauth@ietf.org
References: 
From: Simon Moffatt 
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FWIW, my 2c on naming things in general.

The first thing the 101 book of new product/campaign/solutions creation
would say, is to write the launch press release of the thing you're
creating.=C2=A0 That might seem counter-intuitive, but does a few things.=

Articulates to a team what you're *aiming to achieve*, helps you
*visualize* and more importantly, helps a team generate a *"not to do"*
list. If the item doesn't help with delivering the items in press
release, park them.=C2=A0

That press release will contain salient points: *who* are you helping
with *what*, and *why* you're the best at doing it. If you have that,
you retro fit the name to fit a) target audience b) value proposition.

When it comes to naming, I guess there seems to be a few conflicting
techniques being used. AFAIK, "Txauth" is not backwards compatible with
OAuth2. So any naming would need to indicate independence in order to
build trust and understanding.

As an orthogonal point always seems odd to me to use a placeholder like
"oauth.xyz" which looks incompatible with OAuth2. Isn't that a bit like
an alien trying to make a drink with baked beans instead of coffee beans?=


The generic use of the "*auth*" could also be seen to pre-loaded.
Authentication vendors as well as authorization vendors have jumped on
this bandwagon rightly and wrongly. They have bizdev to worry about, but
the point being, that anyone sees the word "auth" in either connotation,
is going to have a set of unmovable biases.

Is that something you want to compete with? What is authentication? What
is authorization? That is a transaction? What is transactional
authorization?

The process seems to be going down two routes - "same, but different"
somethingAuth or authSomething, in an attempt to attract interest from
existing practitioners.

Alternatively, you go down the island naming route (entirely different,
isolated, catchy) - different and potentially back by an acronym.

SM



On 24/04/2020 5:35 am, Dick Hardt wrote:
> Here is proposed=C2=A0naming process. Feel free to provide feedback and=

> suggestions. Again, if you don't care, then also feel free to opt out
> of participating!
>
> 1. agree on criteria / metrics for name
>
>     Nigel posted some metrics that the Perl community used for the
>     replacement to Perl 6. That seems like a good place to start
>
>     I'll post another thread with the metrics.
>
>
> 2. brainstorm names
>
>     The fun part! All suggestions are=C2=A0welcome.
>
>
> 3. rank names according to metrics
>
>     Nigel has volunteered to build a page to list all suggestions with
>     metrics
>
> =E1=90=A7
>
--=20
ForgeRock  	*Simon Moffatt*
Product Management =C2=A0|=C2=A0 ForgeRock
*t* (44) 7903 347 240 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 *e* simon.moffatt@forgerock.com

*twitter* @simonmoffatt =C2=A0|=C2=A0 *web* www.forgerock.com



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    FWIW, my 2c on naming things in general.
    
    
    The first thing the 101 book of new product/campaign/solutions
      creation would say, is to write the launch press release of the
      thing you're creating.  That might seem counter-intuitive, but
      does a few things. Articulates to a team what you're aiming to
        achieve, helps you visualize and more importantly,
      helps a team generate a "not to do" list. If the item
      doesn't help with delivering the items in press release, park
      them.  
    
    
    
    
    That press release will contain salient points: who are
      you helping with what, and why you're the best at
      doing it. If you have that, you retro fit the name to fit a)
      target audience b) value proposition.
    
    
    
    
    When it comes to naming, I guess there seems to be a few
      conflicting techniques being used. AFAIK, "Txauth" is not
      backwards compatible with OAuth2. So any naming would need to
      indicate independence in order to build trust and understanding.
    
    
    
    
    As an orthogonal point always seems odd to me to use a
      placeholder like "oauth.xyz" which looks incompatible with OAuth2.
      Isn't that a bit like an alien trying to make a drink with baked
      beans instead of coffee beans?
    
    
    
    
    The generic use of the "*auth*" could also be seen to pre-loaded.
      Authentication vendors as well as authorization vendors have
      jumped on this bandwagon rightly and wrongly. They have bizdev to
      worry about, but the point being, that anyone sees the word "auth"
      in either connotation, is going to have a set of unmovable biases.
    
    
     Is that something you want to compete with? What is
      authentication? What is authorization? That is a transaction? What
      is transactional authorization?
    
    
    The process seems to be going down two routes - "same, but
      different" somethingAuth or authSomething, in an attempt to
      attract interest from existing practitioners. 
    
    
    
    
    Alternatively, you go down the island naming route (entirely
      different, isolated, catchy) - different and potentially back by
      an acronym.
    
    
    SM
    
    

    
    
    
    

    
    
    
    
    On 24/04/2020 5:35 am, Dick Hardt
      wrote:
    
    
    
    
    
      
      
    Here is proposed naming process. Feel free to
        provide feedback and suggestions. Again, if you don't care, then
        also feel free to opt out of participating!
        

    
          
    1. agree on criteria / metrics for name
    
          
    
            
    
              
    Nigel posted some metrics that the Perl community
                used for the replacement to Perl 6. That seems like a
                good place to start
    
            
    
            
    
              
    I'll post another thread with the metrics.
    
            
    
          
    
          

    
          
    
          
    2. brainstorm names
    
          
    
            
    
              
    The fun part! All suggestions are welcome.
    
            
    
          
    
          

    
          
    
          
    3. rank names according to metrics
    
          
    
            
    
              
    Nigel has volunteered to build a page to list all
                suggestions with metrics
    
              

    
              
    
            
    
          
    
        
    
      
    
      
    ᐧ
    
      
    
      
    
    
    
    
    -- 
    
      
      
      
      
    
        
          
    
            ForgeRock
            
              Simon Moffatt
    
              Product Management  |  ForgeRock
    
              t
              (44) 7903 347 240  |  e simon.moffatt@forgerock.com
    
              twitter
              @simonmoffatt  |  web www.forgerock.com
                		
          
    
            
      
    
    
    
  


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--------------5CA19F21706129F8E73596CC--


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AuthFlow / FlowAuth?

-Daniel

Am 23.04.20 um 02:18 schrieb Justin Richer:
> Phased Auth — PhAuth.
>
>  — Justin
>
>> On Apr 22, 2020, at 6:55 PM, Mike Jones
>> > > wrote:
>>
>> Then perhaps a few accurate and descriptive protocol names that we
>> could consider would be:
>>  
>>               Multi-Step Authorization Protocol (MSAP)
>>               Multi-Phase Authorization Protocol (MPAP)
>>  
>>                                                           -- Mike
>>  
>> *From:* Txauth > > *On Behalf Of *Dick Hardt
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 22, 2020 3:44 PM
>> *To:* Mike Varley > >
>> *Cc:* txauth@ietf.org 
>> *Subject:* Re: [Txauth] alignment on Justin's use of "transactional"
>> adjective
>>  
>>  
>>  
>> On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 5:55 AM Mike Varley
>> > wrote:
>>
>>     ... the intent of the protocol, which to my mind can be
>>     summarized as:
>>     There is a pre-flight setup transaction required by clients to
>>     authorization servers before the OAuth request/response
>>     (transaction) process can begin
>>
>> 
>>  
>> This is also what I think it the major change to the protocol.
>>  
>> /Dick
>> -- 
>> Txauth mailing list
>> Txauth@ietf.org 
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>
>


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    AuthFlow / FlowAuth?
    
    

    
    
    
    
    -Daniel
    
    
    
    

    
    
    
    
    Am 23.04.20 um 02:18 schrieb Justin
      Richer:
    
    
    
    
    
      
      Phased Auth — PhAuth.
      

    
      
    
      
     — Justin
    
        

    
          
    
            
    On Apr 22, 2020, at 6:55 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones=40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
              wrote:
    
            
    
            
    
              
    
                
    Then perhaps
                    a few accurate and descriptive protocol names that
                    we could consider would be:
    
                
     
    
                
                 
                    Multi-Step Authorization Protocol (MSAP)
    
                
                 
                    Multi-Phase Authorization Protocol (MPAP)
    
                
     
    
                
                                                             
                    -- Mike
    
                
     
    
                
    
                  
    From: Txauth <txauth-bounces@ietf.org> On
                      Behalf Of Dick
                    Hardt
    
                    Sent: Wednesday,
                    April 22, 2020 3:44 PM
    
                    To: Mike Varley
                    <mike.varley@securekey.com>
    
                    Cc: txauth@ietf.org
    
                    Subject: Re: [Txauth]
                    alignment on Justin's use of "transactional"
                    adjective
    
                
    
                
     
    
                
    
                  
    
                    
     
    
                  
    
                  
     
    
                  
    
                    
    
                      
    On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 5:55 AM Mike
                        Varley <mike.varley@securekey.com>
                        wrote:
    
                    
    
                    
    
                      
    
                        
    
                          
    ... the intent of the
                              protocol, which to my mind can be
                              summarized as:
    
                          
    There is a pre-flight setup
                              transaction required by clients to
                              authorization servers before the OAuth
                              request/response (transaction) process can
                              begin
    
                        
    
                      
    
                    
    
                    
    
                      
    <snip>
    
                    
    
                    
    
                      
     
    
                    
    
                    
    
                      
    This is also what I think it the major
                        change to the protocol.
    
                    
    
                    
    
                      
     
    
                    
    
                    
    
                      
    /Dick
    
                    
    
                  
    
                
    
              
    
              -- 
    
              Txauth mailing list
    
              Txauth@ietf.org
    
              https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
    
          
    
        
    
        
    
      
    
      
    
      
    
    
    
    

    
    
    
  


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From: Fabien Imbault 
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 10:48:49 +0200
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Subject: [Txauth] [TxAuth] Naming process
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Watching the simpsons is a good way to make it fun:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=23&v=RiQiTz3KWCE
(actually this is a recurring theme and there were a few other funny
episodes with Homer and Bart about naming startups).

So I would indeed align with the proposal for a separate name process (as
suggested by Simon Moffatt and Dick Hardt -> of course the choice criteria
need to be clarified), and get going in parallel with the specification
work (thanks Justin for the last updates, BTW).

What do you think?

F.

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    Watching the simpsons is a good way to make it fun:=C2=A0<=
div>https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=3D23&v=3DRiQiTz3K=
WCE
    (actually this=C2=A0is a recurring theme and there we=
re a few other funny episodes with Homer and Bart about naming startups).=
=C2=A0

    So I would indeed align with the proposal f=
or a separate name process (as suggested by Simon Moffatt and Dick Hardt -&=
gt; of course the choice criteria need to be clarified), and get going in=
=C2=A0parallel with the specification work (thanks Justin for the last upda=
tes, BTW).

    What do you think?

    =

    F.
    

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From: Dick Hardt 
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2020 16:19:14 -0700
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Riffing on the work done to name Perl6, here are the name criteria I
propose:

Required:

   1. No confusion with another protocol or major software project
   2. no existing registered trademarks in related classes
   3. Less than 1M results in Google
   4. Short (<=6 chars)
   5. Descriptive of protocol (this criteria is subjective)

Desirable:

   1. Straightforward to pronounce
   2. Easy to spell
   3. Easy to read

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    Riffing on the work done to name Perl6, here are the =
name criteria I propose:

    Required:
    1. No confu=
sion with another protocol or major software project
    2. no existing re=
gistered trademarks in related classes
    3. Less than 1M results in Goog=
le
    4. Short (<=3D6 chars)
    5. Descriptive of protocol (this cri=
teria is subjective)
    Desirable:
    1. Strai=
ghtforward to pronounce
    2. Easy to spell=C2=A0
    3. Easy to read



    

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From: Justin Richer 
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To: Dick Hardt 
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I think the 6-character length requirement is more under =E2=80=9Cdesirabl=
e=E2=80=9D than =E2=80=9Crequired=E2=80=9D. Shorter names are often =
better, but that doesn=E2=80=99t make a longer name off limits for =
consideration.=20

 =E2=80=94 Justin

> On Apr 27, 2020, at 7:19 PM, Dick Hardt  wrote:
>=20
> Riffing on the work done to name Perl6, here are the name criteria I =
propose:
>=20
> Required:
> No confusion with another protocol or major software project
> no existing registered trademarks in related classes
> Less than 1M results in Google
> Short (<=3D6 chars)
> Descriptive of protocol (this criteria is subjective)
> Desirable:
> Straightforward to pronounce
> Easy to spell=20
> Easy to read
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --=20
> Txauth mailing list
> Txauth@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth


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I =
think the 6-character length requirement is more under =E2=80=9Cdesirable=E2=
=80=9D than =E2=80=9Crequired=E2=80=9D. Shorter names are often better, =
but that doesn=E2=80=99t make a longer name off limits for =
consideration. 

     =E2=80=94 Justin

    On Apr =
27, 2020, at 7:19 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com> wrote:

    Riffing on the =
work done to name Perl6, here are the name criteria I propose:

    Required:
    1. No confusion with another protocol or major =
software project
    2. no existing registered trademarks in =
related classes
    3. Less than 1M results in =
Google
    4. Short (<=3D6 chars)
    5. Descriptive of protocol (this criteria is =
subjective)
    Desirable:
    1. Straightforward to =
pronounce
    2. Easy to spell 
    3. Easy =
to read



    
-- 
    Txauth mailing list
    Txauth@ietf.org
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    =

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From: Mike Jones 
To: Justin Richer , Dick Hardt 
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In-Reply-To: 
From: Dick Hardt 
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2020 20:56:55 -0700
Message-ID: 
To: Mike Jones 
Cc: Justin Richer , "txauth@ietf.org" 
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001c5b0005a451d40b"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Txauth] Name criteria
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I pick 6 chars since all the protocols I could think of were <=3D 6 chars i=
n
their short form, but I'm fine just stack ranking them.

Would we agree that all other things being equal, shorter is better?

The related dimension would be number of syllables. A smaller number of
syllables makes it easier to say.

... and to argue with Mike ... because it is fun ... :)

The short form for OpenID Connect is OIDC ... and the previous version is
just OpenID ... and while rarely used, SCIM is System for Cross-domain
Identity Management (which as we all know was made up to match the acronym
which originally was Simple Cloud Identity Management)

TCP/IP is the common term used for the wire transport. (6 chars)





On Mon, Apr 27, 2020 at 6:57 PM Mike Jones 
wrote:

> I agree with Justin that the =E2=80=9Cshort=E2=80=9D criteria is overly r=
estrictive.
> Remember too, that many protocols have a short and a long name, but some
> don=E2=80=99t.  Some common ones with both long and short names are:
>
>               Internet Protocol (IP)
>
>               Transmission Control Protocol (TCP)
>
> An example without a short name is:
>
>               OpenID Connect
>
> An example that effectively only has a short name is:
>
>               SCIM
>
>
>
> All of these kinds of reasonable names should be eligible for
> consideration, not all of which are short.
>
>
>
>                                                        -- Mike
>
>
>
> *From:* Txauth  *On Behalf Of *Justin Richer
> *Sent:* Monday, April 27, 2020 6:37 PM
> *To:* Dick Hardt 
> *Cc:* txauth@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Txauth] Name criteria
>
>
>
> I think the 6-character length requirement is more under =E2=80=9Cdesirab=
le=E2=80=9D than
> =E2=80=9Crequired=E2=80=9D. Shorter names are often better, but that does=
n=E2=80=99t make a longer
> name off limits for consideration.
>
>
>
>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>
>
>
> On Apr 27, 2020, at 7:19 PM, Dick Hardt  wrote:
>
>
>
> Riffing on the work done to name Perl6, here are the name criteria I
> propose:
>
>
>
> Required:
>
>    1. No confusion with another protocol or major software project
>    2. no existing registered trademarks in related classes
>    3. Less than 1M results in Google
>    4. Short (<=3D6 chars)
>    5. Descriptive of protocol (this criteria is subjective)
>
> Desirable:
>
>    1. Straightforward to pronounce
>    2. Easy to spell
>    3. Easy to read
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Txauth mailing list
> Txauth@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>
>
>

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    I pick 6 chars since all the protocols I could think of we=
re <=3D 6 chars in their short form, but I'm fine just stack ranking=
 them.

    Would we agree that all other things being equal,=
 shorter is better?

    The related dimension would be n=
umber of syllables. A smaller number of syllables makes it easier to say.

    ... and to argue with Mike ... because it is =
fun ... :)

    The short form for OpenID Connect is OI=
DC ... and the previous version is just OpenID ... and while rarely used, S=
CIM is System for Cross-domain Identity Management (which as we all know wa=
s made up to match the acronym which originally was Simple Cloud Identity M=
anagement)

    TCP/IP is the common term used for the =
wire transport. (6 chars)





    On Mon, Apr 27, 2020 at 6:57 PM Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com> wrot=
e:
    






    

    

    I agree with Just=
in that the =E2=80=9Cshort=E2=80=9D criteria is overly restrictive.=C2=A0 R=
emember too, that many protocols have a short and a long name, but some don=
=E2=80=99t.=C2=A0 Some common ones with both long and short names are:
    

    =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Internet Pr=
otocol (IP)
    

    =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Transmissio=
n Control Protocol (TCP)
    

    An example withou=
t a short name is:
    

    =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 OpenID Conn=
ect
    

    An example that e=
ffectively only has a short name is:
    

    =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 SCIM=

    

    =C2=A0<=
/u>
    

    All of these kind=
s of reasonable names should be eligible for consideration, not all of whic=
h are short.
    

    =C2=A0<=
/u>
    

    =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 -- Mike
    

    =C2=A0<=
/u>
    

    

    

    From: Txauth <txauth-bounces@ietf.org> On Beha=
lf Of
Justin Richer
    
Sent: Monday, April 27, 2020 6:37 PM
    
To: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
    
Cc: txauth@ietf=
.org
    
Subject: Re: [Txauth] Name criteria
    

    

    

    =C2=A0
    

    I think the 6-character length requirement is more u=
nder =E2=80=9Cdesirable=E2=80=9D than =E2=80=9Crequired=E2=80=9D. Shorter n=
ames are often better, but that doesn=E2=80=99t make a longer name off limi=
ts for consideration.=C2=A0
    

    

    =C2=A0
    

    

    

    =C2=A0=E2=80=94 Justin
    

    


    

    

    

    

    

    On Apr 27, 2020, at 7:19 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com=
> wrote:
    

    

    =C2=A0
    

    

    

    

    Riffing on the work done to name Perl6, here are the=
 name criteria I propose:
    

    

    

    =C2=A0
    

    

    Required:
    

    

      

    1. 
No confusion with another protocol or major software project<=
/li>
    2. 
no existing registered trademarks in related classes
    3. 
Less than 1M results in Google
    4. 
Short (<=3D6 chars)
    5. 
Descriptive of protocol (this criteria is subjective)
      6. 

    

    

    Desirable:
    

    

    

      

    1. 
Straightforward to pronounce
    2. 
Easy to spell=C2=A0
    3. 
Easy to read
    

    

    

    =C2=A0
    

    

    

    =C2=A0
    

    

    

    =C2=A0
    

    

    

    -- 
    
Txauth mailing list
    
Txauth@ietf.org
=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
    

    

    

    

    =C2=A0
    

    

    

    


    

--0000000000001c5b0005a451d40b--


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Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 16:29:27 +0300
From: Yaron Sheffer 
To: Dick Hardt , Mike Jones 
CC: "txauth@ietf.org" , Justin Richer 
Message-ID: 
Thread-Topic: [Txauth] Name criteria
References:  
In-Reply-To: 
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Subject: Re: [Txauth] Name criteria
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Please add to point #1: No confusion =E2=80=A6 or an IETF/IRTF WG.

=20

Now you guys can go back to counting letters =F0=9F=98=8A

=20

From: Txauth  on behalf of Dick Hardt 
Date: Tuesday, April 28, 2020 at 06:57
To: Mike Jones 
Cc: "txauth@ietf.org" , Justin Richer 
Subject: Re: [Txauth] Name criteria

=20

I pick 6 chars since all the protocols I could think of were <=3D 6 chars in =
their short form, but I'm fine just stack ranking them.

=20

Would we agree that all other things being equal, shorter is better?

=20

The related dimension would be number of syllables. A smaller number of syl=
lables makes it easier to say.

=20

... and to argue with Mike ... because it is fun ... :)

=20

The short form for OpenID Connect is OIDC ... and the previous version is j=
ust OpenID ... and while rarely used, SCIM is System for Cross-domain Identi=
ty Management (which as we all know was made up to match the acronym which o=
riginally was Simple Cloud Identity Management)

=20

TCP/IP is the common term used for the wire transport. (6 chars)

=20

=20

=20

=20

=20

On Mon, Apr 27, 2020 at 6:57 PM Mike Jones  wr=
ote:

I agree with Justin that the =E2=80=9Cshort=E2=80=9D criteria is overly restrictive.  R=
emember too, that many protocols have a short and a long name, but some don=E2=
=80=99t.  Some common ones with both long and short names are:

              Internet Protocol (IP)

              Transmission Control Protocol (TCP)

An example without a short name is:

              OpenID Connect

An example that effectively only has a short name is:

              SCIM

=20

All of these kinds of reasonable names should be eligible for consideration=
, not all of which are short.

=20

                                                       -- Mike

=20

From: Txauth  On Behalf Of Justin Richer
Sent: Monday, April 27, 2020 6:37 PM
To: Dick Hardt 
Cc: txauth@ietf..org
Subject: Re: [Txauth] Name criteria

=20

I think the 6-character length requirement is more under =E2=80=9Cdesirable=E2=80=9D th=
an =E2=80=9Crequired=E2=80=9D. Shorter names are often better, but that doesn=E2=80=99t make a=
 longer name off limits for consideration.=20

=20

 =E2=80=94 Justin

=20

On Apr 27, 2020, at 7:19 PM, Dick Hardt  wrote:

=20

Riffing on the work done to name Perl6, here are the name criteria I propos=
e:

=20

Required:

No confusion with another protocol or major software project
no existing registered trademarks in related classes
Less than 1M results in Google
Short (<=3D6 chars)
Descriptive of protocol (this criteria is subjective)
Desirable:

Straightforward to pronounce
Easy to spell=20
Easy to read
=20

=20

=20

--=20
Txauth mailing list
Txauth@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth

=20

-- Txauth mailing list Txauth@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinf=
o/txauth=20


--B_3670936168_484667561
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	charset="UTF-8"
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    Please add to point #1: No confusion =E2=80=A6 or an IET=
F/IRTF WG.
     
    Now you guys can go back to counting letters 😊
     
    From: Txa=
uth <txauth-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@g=
mail.com>
    Date: Tuesday, April 28, 2020 at 06:57
    To: =
Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
    Cc: "txauth@ie=
tf.org" <txauth@ietf.org>, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu><=
br>Subject: Re: [Txauth] Name criteria
     
    I pi=
ck 6 chars since all the protocols I could think of were <=3D 6 chars in th=
eir short form, but I'm fine just stack ranking them.
     
    Would we =
agree that all other things being equal, shorter is better?
     
    The=
 related dimension would be number of syllables. A smaller number of syllabl=
es makes it easier to say.
     
    ... and to argue with Mi=
ke ... because it is fun ... :)
    =
 
    The short form for OpenID=
 Connect is OIDC ... and the previous version is just OpenID ... and while r=
arely used, SCIM is System for Cross-domain Identity Management (which as we=
 all know was made up to match the acronym which originally was Simple Cloud=
 Identity Management)
     =
;
    TCP/IP is the common term used for =
the wire transport. (6 chars)
     
     
    =

     
    <=
o:p> 
     
    On Mon, Apr 27, 2020 at 6:57 PM Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>=
 wrote:
    I agree with Justin=
 that the =E2=80=9Cshort=E2=80=9D criteria is overly restrictive.  Remember too, th=
at many protocols have a short and a long name, but some don=E2=80=99t.  Some=
 common ones with both long and short names are:
            &nbs=
p;     Internet Protocol (IP)
            &nb=
sp;     Transmission Control Protocol (TCP)<=
/o:p>
    An example without a short name is:
        &n=
bsp;         OpenID Connect
    An example that effectively only =
has a short name is:
    &nbs=
p;             S=
CIM
     
    All of these kinds of reasonable names =
should be eligible for consideration, not all of which are short.
     
             =
;            &nb=
sp;            &=
nbsp;            =
;        -- Mike
    <=
span style=3D'color:#002060'> 
    From:=
 Txauth <txa=
uth-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Justin Richer
    Sent: Monday, April 27, 2020 6:37 PM
    To: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
    =
Cc: txauth@ietf..org
    Subject: Re: [Txauth] Name criteria
    =
 
    I think the 6-character length requirement is more un=
der =E2=80=9Cdesirable=E2=80=9D than =E2=80=9Crequired=E2=80=9D. Shorter names are often better, but=
 that doesn=E2=80=99t make a longer name off limits for consideration. <=
/o:p>
     
     =E2=80=94 Justin
     
     
    Riffing on the work=
 done to name Perl6, here are the name criteria I propose:
     
    Required:
    1. No confusion with another protocol or =
major software project
    2. no existing=
 registered trademarks in related classes
    3. Less than 1M results in Google
    4. Short (<=3D6 chars)
    5. Descript=
ive of protocol (this criteria is subjective)
    Desirable:
    1. Straightforward to pronounce
    2. Easy to spell 
    3. Easy to re=
ad
     
     =

     
    -- 
    Txauth=
 mailing list
    Txauth@iet=
f.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
     
    -- Txauth mailing list Txauth@ietf.org https://www.ie=
tf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth 
    

--B_3670936168_484667561--



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From: Mike Jones 
To: Yaron Sheffer , Dick Hardt 
CC: "txauth@ietf.org" , Justin Richer 
Thread-Topic: [Txauth] Name criteria
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References:    
In-Reply-To: 
From: Dick Hardt 
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 10:04:39 -0700
Message-ID: 
To: Mike Jones 
Cc: Yaron Sheffer , "txauth@ietf.org" , Justin Richer 
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000043983905a45cd581"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Txauth] Name criteria
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--00000000000043983905a45cd581
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Revised criteria:

Required:

   1. No confusion with another protocol, major software project, or
   IETF/IRTF WG name
   2. no existing registered trademarks in related classes
   3. Less than 1M results in Google
   4. Descriptive of protocol (this criteria is subjective)

Desirable:

   1. Straightforward to pronounce
   2. Easy to spell
   3. Easy to read
   4. Shortish


And to continue my arguing with Mike ... :)

Facebook Connect has a registered trademark in its name, and while I did
have to look up the current SCIM words, I knew the original! :)

On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 8:54 AM Mike Jones 
wrote:

> Arguing with Dick in reply (because it=E2=80=99s fun ;-) )=E2=80=A6
>
>
>
> =E2=80=9CFacebook Connect=E2=80=9D is the descriptive name of a successfu=
l well-known
> protocol with no short name.  (=E2=80=9COIDC=E2=80=9D is not used in any =
of the OpenID
> Connect specs either.)  My point is not to exclude consideration of names
> without a short form.
>
>
>
> And it would be a safe bet that you had to look up the bacronym for
> =E2=80=9CSCIM=E2=80=9D, because it doesn=E2=80=99t exactly roll off the t=
ongue!
>
>
>
>                                                        Cheers,
>
>                                                        -- Mike
>
>
>
> *From:* Yaron Sheffer 
> *Sent:* Tuesday, April 28, 2020 6:29 AM
> *To:* Dick Hardt ; Mike Jones <
> Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
> *Cc:* txauth@ietf.org; Justin Richer 
> *Subject:* Re: [Txauth] Name criteria
>
>
>
> Please add to point #1: No confusion =E2=80=A6 or an IETF/IRTF WG.
>
>
>
> Now you guys can go back to counting letters =F0=9F=98=8A
>
>
>
> *From: *Txauth  on behalf of Dick Hardt <
> dick.hardt@gmail.com>
> *Date: *Tuesday, April 28, 2020 at 06:57
> *To: *Mike Jones 
> *Cc: *"txauth@ietf.org" , Justin Richer 
> *Subject: *Re: [Txauth] Name criteria
>
>
>
> I pick 6 chars since all the protocols I could think of were <=3D 6 chars=
 in
> their short form, but I'm fine just stack ranking them.
>
>
>
> Would we agree that all other things being equal, shorter is better?
>
>
>
> The related dimension would be number of syllables. A smaller number of
> syllables makes it easier to say.
>
>
>
> ... and to argue with Mike ... because it is fun ... :)
>
>
>
> The short form for OpenID Connect is OIDC ... and the previous version is
> just OpenID ... and while rarely used, SCIM is System for Cross-domain
> Identity Management (which as we all know was made up to match the acrony=
m
> which originally was Simple Cloud Identity Management)
>
>
>
> TCP/IP is the common term used for the wire transport. (6 chars)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 27, 2020 at 6:57 PM Mike Jones 
> wrote:
>
> I agree with Justin that the =E2=80=9Cshort=E2=80=9D criteria is overly r=
estrictive.
> Remember too, that many protocols have a short and a long name, but some
> don=E2=80=99t.  Some common ones with both long and short names are:
>
>               Internet Protocol (IP)
>
>               Transmission Control Protocol (TCP)
>
> An example without a short name is:
>
>               OpenID Connect
>
> An example that effectively only has a short name is:
>
>               SCIM
>
>
>
> All of these kinds of reasonable names should be eligible for
> consideration, not all of which are short.
>
>
>
>                                                        -- Mike
>
>
>
> *From:* Txauth  *On Behalf Of *Justin Richer
> *Sent:* Monday, April 27, 2020 6:37 PM
> *To:* Dick Hardt 
> *Cc:* txauth@ietf..org 
> *Subject:* Re: [Txauth] Name criteria
>
>
>
> I think the 6-character length requirement is more under =E2=80=9Cdesirab=
le=E2=80=9D than
> =E2=80=9Crequired=E2=80=9D. Shorter names are often better, but that does=
n=E2=80=99t make a longer
> name off limits for consideration.
>
>
>
>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>
>
>
> On Apr 27, 2020, at 7:19 PM, Dick Hardt  wrote:
>
>
>
> Riffing on the work done to name Perl6, here are the name criteria I
> propose:
>
>
>
> Required:
>
>    1. No confusion with another protocol or major software project
>    2. no existing registered trademarks in related classes
>    3. Less than 1M results in Google
>    4. Short (<=3D6 chars)
>    5. Descriptive of protocol (this criteria is subjective)
>
> Desirable:
>
>    1. Straightforward to pronounce
>    2. Easy to spell
>    3. Easy to read
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Txauth mailing list
> Txauth@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>
>
>
> -- Txauth mailing list Txauth@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>
=E1=90=A7

--00000000000043983905a45cd581
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


    Revised criteria:

    Required:
    1. No confusion with anothe=
r protocol, major software project, or IETF/IRTF WG name
    2. no existing registered trademarks in related classes
      3. <=
li style=3D"margin-left:15px">Less than 1M results in Google
    3. Descriptive of protocol (this criteria is subjective)=

    Desirable:
    1. Straightforward to pronounce
    2. Easy to s=
pell=C2=A0
    3. Easy to read
    4. Shortish

    And to conti=
nue my arguing with Mike ... :)

    Facebook=C2=A0Conn=
ect has a registered trademark in its name, and while I did have to look up=
 the current SCIM words, I knew the original! :)

    On Tue, Apr 28, 2020=
 at 8:54 AM Mike Jones <M=
ichael.Jones@microsoft.com> wrote:
    






    

    

    Arguing with Dick=
 in reply (because it=E2=80=99s fun ;-) )=E2=80=A6
    

    =C2=A0<=
/u>
    

    =E2=80=9CFacebook=
 Connect=E2=80=9D is the descriptive name of a successful well-known protoc=
ol with no short name.=C2=A0 (=E2=80=9COIDC=E2=80=9D is not used in any of =
the OpenID Connect specs either.)=C2=A0 My point is not to exclude consider=
ation of
 names without a short form.
    

    =C2=A0<=
/u>
    

    And it would be a=
 safe bet that you had to look up the bacronym for =E2=80=9CSCIM=E2=80=9D, =
because it doesn=E2=80=99t exactly roll off the tongue!
    

    =C2=A0<=
/u>
    

    =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 Cheers,
    

    =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 -- Mike
    

    =C2=A0<=
/u>
    

    

    

    From: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com> 
    
Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2020 6:29 AM
    
To: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>; Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com=
>
    
Cc: txauth@ietf=
.org; Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
    
Subject: Re: [Txauth] Name criteria
    

    

    

    =C2=A0
    

    Please add to point #1: No confusion =E2=80=A6 or an=
 IETF/IRTF WG.
    

    =C2=A0
    

    Now you guys can go back to counting letters 
=F0=9F=98=8A
    

    =C2=A0
    

    

    From: =
Txauth <txauth-bounces@ietf.org<=
/a>> on behalf of Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
    
Date: Tuesday, April 28, 2020 at 06:57
    
To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
    
Cc: "txaut=
h@ietf.org" <txauth@ietf.org>, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu>
    
Subject: Re: [Txauth] Name criteria
    

    

    

    =C2=A0
    

    

    

    I pick 6 chars since all the protocols I could think=
 of were <=3D 6 chars in their short form, but I'm fine just stack r=
anking them.
    

    

    =C2=A0
    

    

    

    Would we agree that all other things being equal, sh=
orter is better?
    

    

    =C2=A0
    

    

    

    The related dimension would be number of syllables. =
A smaller number of syllables makes it easier to say.
    

    

    

    

    =C2=A0
    

    

    

    ... and to argue with Mike ... because it is fun ...=
 :)
    

    

    

    =C2=A0
    

    

    

    The short form for OpenID Connect is OIDC ... and th=
e previous version is just OpenID ... and while rarely used, SCIM is System=
 for Cross-domain Identity Management (which as we all know was made up to =
match the acronym which originally
 was Simple Cloud Identity Management)
    

    

    

    =C2=A0
    

    

    

    TCP/IP is the common term used for the wire transpor=
t. (6 chars)
    

    

    

    =C2=A0
    

    

    

    =C2=A0
    

    

    

    =C2=A0
    

    

    

    =C2=A0
    

    

    

    =C2=A0
    

    

    

    On Mon, Apr 27, 2020 at 6:57 PM Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@m=
icrosoft.com> wrote:
    

    

    

    

    

    I agree with Just=
in that the =E2=80=9Cshort=E2=80=9D criteria is overly restrictive.=C2=A0 R=
emember too, that many protocols have a short and a long name, but some don=
=E2=80=99t.=C2=A0
 Some common ones with both long and short names are:<=
/p>

    =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Internet Pr=
otocol (IP)
    

    =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Transmissio=
n Control Protocol (TCP)
    

    An example withou=
t a short name is:
    

    =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 OpenID Conn=
ect
    

    An example that e=
ffectively only has a short name is:
    

    =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 SCIM=

    

    =C2=A0<=
/u>
    

    All of these kind=
s of reasonable names should be eligible for consideration, not all of whic=
h are short.
    

    =C2=A0<=
/u>
    

    =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 -- Mike
    

    =C2=A0<=
/u>
    

    

    

    From: Txauth <txauth-bounces@ietf.org>
On Behalf Of Justin Richer
    
Sent: Monday, April 27, 2020 6:37 PM
    
To: Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
    
Cc: txauth@ietf=
..org
    
Subject: Re: [Txauth] Name criteria
    

    

    

    =C2=A0
    

    I think the 6-character length requirement is more u=
nder =E2=80=9Cdesirable=E2=80=9D than =E2=80=9Crequired=E2=80=9D. Shorter n=
ames are often better, but that doesn=E2=80=99t make a longer name off limi=
ts for consideration.=C2=A0
    

    

    =C2=A0
    

    

    

    =C2=A0=E2=80=94 Justin
    

    

    =C2=A0

    

    

    On Apr 27, 2020, at 7:19 PM, Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com=
> wrote:
    

    

    =C2=A0
    

    

    

    

    Riffing on the work done to name Perl6, here are the=
 name criteria I propose:
    

    

    

    =C2=A0
    

    

    Required:
    

    

      

    1. 
No confusion with another protocol or major software project<=
/li>
    2. 
no existing registered trademarks in related classes
    3. 
Less than 1M results in Google
    4. 
Short (<=3D6 chars)
    5. 
Descriptive of protocol (this criteria is subjective)
      6. 

    

    

    Desirable:
    

    

    

      

    1. 
Straightforward to pronounce
    2. 
Easy to spell=C2=A0
    3. 
Easy to read
    

    

    

    =C2=A0
    

    

    

    =C2=A0
    

    

    

    =C2=A0
    

    

    

    --

    
Txauth mailing list
    
Txauth@ietf.org
=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
    

    

    

    

    =C2=A0
    

    

    

    

    

    

    -- Txauth mailing list Txauth@ietf.org
=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth

    

    

    


    3D""=
=E1=90=A7
    

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Am 28.04.20 um 19:04 schrieb Dick Hardt:
> Revised criteria:
>
> Required:
>
>  1. No confusion with another protocol, major software project, or
>     IETF/IRTF WG name
>  2. no existing registered trademarks in related classes
>  3. Less than 1M results in Google
>  4. Descriptive of protocol (this criteria is subjective)
>
> Desirable:
>
>  1. Straightforward to pronounce
>  2. Easy to spell 
>  3. Easy to read
>  4. Shortish
>
5. Not a negatively connotated word in another language

-Daniel


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    Am 28.04.20 um 19:04 schrieb Dick
      Hardt:
    
    
    
    
    
      
      
    
        
    
          
    Revised criteria:
    
          

    
          
    
          Required:
          
    
            
      
              
    1. No confusion with another
                protocol, major software project, or IETF/IRTF WG name
      2. 
              
    2. no existing registered
                trademarks in related classes
      3. 
              
    3. Less than 1M results in
                Google
      4. 
              
    4. Descriptive of protocol (this
                criteria is subjective)
      5. 
            
    
          
    
          
    Desirable:
    
          
    
            
      
              
    1. Straightforward to pronounce
      2. 
              
    2. Easy to spell 
      3. 
              
    3. Easy to read
      4. 
              
    4. Shortish
      5. 
            
    
          
    
        
    
      
    
    
    
    
    5. Not a negatively connotated word in another language
    
    
    -Daniel
    
    
    
  


--------------2F8592CFB774CF97FB718863--


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From: Dick Hardt 
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 10:54:09 -0700
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To: Daniel Fett 
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Subject: Re: [Txauth] Name criteria
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Daniel: I'm in favor of the intent of your suggestion -- but curious which
languages we would test that in. Doing it for all languages is impractical.
A negative connotation may also be a locale rather than language specific.
For example, a fag in the UK (a cigarette) is very different than a fag in
the US/Canada (offensive term for a homosexual man).
=E1=90=A7

On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 10:09 AM Daniel Fett  wrote:

> Am 28.04.20 um 19:04 schrieb Dick Hardt:
>
> Revised criteria:
>
> Required:
>
>    1. No confusion with another protocol, major software project, or
>    IETF/IRTF WG name
>    2. no existing registered trademarks in related classes
>    3. Less than 1M results in Google
>    4. Descriptive of protocol (this criteria is subjective)
>
> Desirable:
>
>    1. Straightforward to pronounce
>    2. Easy to spell
>    3. Easy to read
>    4. Shortish
>
> 5. Not a negatively connotated word in another language
>
> -Daniel
> --
> Txauth mailing list
> Txauth@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>

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    Daniel: I'm in favor of the intent of your suggestion =
-- but curious which languages we would test that in. Doing it for all lang=
uages is impractical. A negative connotation=C2=A0may also be a locale rath=
er than language specific. For example, a fag in the UK (a cigarette) is ve=
ry different than a fag in the US/Canada (offensive term for a homosexual m=
an).
    =3D""=E1=90=A7

    On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 10:09 AM Daniel=
 Fett <fett@danielfett.de> =
wrote:
    
 =20
   =20
 =20
  
    
    
    Am 28.04.20 um 19:04 schrieb Dick
      Hardt:
    
    
    
    
    
     =20
      
    
        
    
          
    Revised criteria:
    
          

    
          
    
          Required:
          
    
            
      
              
    1. No confusion with another
                protocol, major software project, or IETF/IRTF WG name
      2. 
              
    2. no existing registered
                trademarks in related classes
      3. 
              
    3. Less than 1M results in
                Google
      4. 
              
    4. Descriptive of protocol (this
                criteria is subjective)
      5. 
            
    
          
    
          
    Desirable:
    
          
    
            
      
              
    1. Straightforward to pronounce
              
    2. Easy to spell=C2=A0
      3. 
              
    3. Easy to read
      4. 
              
    4. Shortish
      5. 
            
    
          
    
        
    
      
    
    
    
    
    5. Not a negatively connotated word in another language
    
    
    -Daniel
    
    
    
  
    

-- 
    
Txauth mailing list
    
Txauth@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
    

    

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References:      <5f2a0446-9b87-3251-246f-5d7b84e9822a@danielfett.de> 
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 13:58:00 -0400
From: "Amanjeev Sethi" 
To: "Dick Hardt" , "Daniel Fett" 
Cc: txauth@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [Txauth] Name criteria
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Does no one think that "intent driven" can be used for creating a name?

On Tue, Apr 28, 2020, at 1:54 PM, Dick Hardt wrote:
> Daniel: I'm in favor of the intent of your suggestion -- but curious w=
hich languages we would test that in. Doing it for all languages is impr=
actical. A negative connotation may also be a locale rather than languag=
e specific. For example, a fag in the UK (a cigarette) is very different=
 than a fag in the US/Canada (offensive term for a homosexual man).
> =E1=90=A7
>=20
> On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 10:09 AM Daniel Fett  wrot=
e:
>> Am 28.04.20 um 19:04 schrieb Dick Hardt:
>>> Revised criteria:
>>>=20
>>> Required:
>>>  1. No confusion with another protocol, major software project, or I=
ETF/IRTF WG name
>>>  2. no existing registered trademarks in related classes
>>>  3. Less than 1M results in Google
>>>  4. Descriptive of protocol (this criteria is subjective)
>>> Desirable:
>>>  1. Straightforward to pronounce
>>>  2. Easy to spell=20
>>>  3. Easy to read
>>>  4. Shortish
>> 5. Not a negatively connotated word in another language

>> -Daniel

>> --
>>  Txauth mailing list
>> Txauth@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
> --=20
> Txauth mailing list
> Txauth@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>=20

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    Does no one thi=
nk that "intent driven" can be used for creating a name?
    <=
br>
    On Tue, Apr 28, 2020, at 1:54 PM, Dick Hardt wrote:
    Daniel: I'm in f=
avor of the intent of your suggestion -- but curious which languages we =
would test that in. Doing it for all languages is impractical. A negativ=
e connotation may also be a locale rather than language specific. F=
or example, a fag in the UK (a cigarette) is very different than a fag i=
n the US/Canada (offensive term for a homosexual man).
    3D""=E1=90=A7

    On Tue, Apr 28, 2=
020 at 10:09 AM Daniel Fett <fe=
tt@danielfett.de> wrote:
    Am 28.04.20 um 19:04 =
schrieb Dick
      Hardt:
    Revised criteria:

    Required:<=
br>
    1. No confusion with anot=
her
                protocol, major software project, or IETF/IRTF WG name
    2. no existing registered
                trademarks in related classes
    3. Less than 1M results in
                Google
    4. Descripti=
ve of protocol (this
                criteria is subjective)
    Desirabl=
e:
    1. Straightforward to =
pronounce
    2. Easy to spell 
    3. Easy to read
    4. Shortish
    =

    5. Not a negatively connotated word in another language
    -Da=
niel
    --
     Txauth mailing list
     Txauth@ietf.org=

    -- 
    Txauth mailing list
    Txauth@ietf.org
    https=
://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth


    
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Am 28.04.20 um 19:54 schrieb Dick Hardt:
> Daniel: I'm in favor of the intent of your suggestion -- but curious
> which languages we would test that in. Doing it for all languages is
> impractical. A negative connotation may also be a locale rather than
> language specific. For example, a fag in the UK (a cigarette) is very
> different than a fag in the US/Canada (offensive term for a homosexual
> man).

If it is in the Urban Dictionary, it is probably a bad choice ;-)

No, seriously, I guess we can just google for " definition", "
translation" and see what comes up.

-Daniel



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    Am 28.04.20 um 19:54 schrieb Dick
      Hardt:
    
    
    
    
    
      
      
    Daniel: I'm in favor of the intent of your
        suggestion -- but curious which languages we would test that in.
        Doing it for all languages is impractical. A negative
        connotation may also be a locale rather than language specific.
        For example, a fag in the UK (a cigarette) is very different
        than a fag in the US/Canada (offensive term for a homosexual
        man).
    
    
    
    
    If it is in the Urban Dictionary, it is probably a bad choice ;-)
    
    
    No, seriously, I guess we can just google for "<x>
      definition", "<x> translation" and see what comes up. 
    
    
    
    
    -Daniel
    
    
    
  


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From: Dick Hardt 
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 11:11:30 -0700
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To: Daniel Fett 
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But which languages are we checking? There are alot in the world. The
phonetics of the name could be offensive -- ie it could be an offensive
word when said in China or Japan. I don't know how to use google to
search phonetics.
=E1=90=A7

On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 11:01 AM Daniel Fett  wrote:

> Am 28.04.20 um 19:54 schrieb Dick Hardt:
>
> Daniel: I'm in favor of the intent of your suggestion -- but curious whic=
h
> languages we would test that in. Doing it for all languages is impractica=
l.
> A negative connotation may also be a locale rather than language specific=
.
> For example, a fag in the UK (a cigarette) is very different than a fag i=
n
> the US/Canada (offensive term for a homosexual man).
>
> If it is in the Urban Dictionary, it is probably a bad choice ;-)
>
> No, seriously, I guess we can just google for " definition", "
> translation" and see what comes up.
>
> -Daniel
>
>

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    But which languages are we checking? There are alot in the=
 world. The phonetics of the name could be offensive -- ie it could be an o=
ffensive word when said in=C2=A0China or Japan. I don't know how to use=
 google to search=C2=A0phonetics.=C2=A0
    

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From: Dick Hardt 
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Any other feedback on the criteria?

I'll start a separate thread for brainstorming names
=E1=90=A7

On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 12:44 PM Hankins Parichabutr <
hankins.parichabutr@gmail.com> wrote:

> @Amanjeev beat me to this...
>
> I'm also wondering whether "intent" and/or "delegation" are useful to the
> naming:
> + Intent-based
> + Intentional authorization
> + Intentional delegation
>
> Regards,
> Hankins Parichabutr
> . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 2:29 PM  wrote:
>
>> Send Txauth mailing list submissions to
>>         txauth@ietf.org
>>
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>         https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>         txauth-request@ietf.org
>>
>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>>         txauth-owner@ietf.org
>>
>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> than "Re: Contents of Txauth digest..."
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>>    1. Re: Name criteria (Amanjeev Sethi)
>>    2. Re: Name criteria (Daniel Fett)
>>    3. Re: Name criteria (Dick Hardt)
>>    4. Re: Name criteria (Justin Richer)
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> From: Amanjeev Sethi 
>> To: Dick Hardt , Daniel Fett 
>> Cc: txauth@ietf.org
>> Bcc:
>> Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 13:58:00 -0400
>> Subject: Re: [Txauth] Name criteria
>> Does no one think that "intent driven" can be used for creating a name?
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 28, 2020, at 1:54 PM, Dick Hardt wrote:
>>
>> Daniel: I'm in favor of the intent of your suggestion -- but curious
>> which languages we would test that in. Doing it for all languages is
>> impractical. A negative connotation may also be a locale rather than
>> language specific. For example, a fag in the UK (a cigarette) is very
>> different than a fag in the US/Canada (offensive term for a homosexual m=
an).
>> =E1=90=A7
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 10:09 AM Daniel Fett  wrote:
>>
>> Am 28.04..20 um 19:04 schrieb Dick Hardt:
>>
>> Revised criteria:
>>
>> Required:
>>
>>    1. No confusion with another protocol, major software project, or
>>    IETF/IRTF WG name
>>    2. no existing registered trademarks in related classes
>>    3. Less than 1M results in Google
>>    4. Descriptive of protocol (this criteria is subjective)
>>
>> Desirable:
>>
>>    1. Straightforward to pronounce
>>    2. Easy to spell
>>    3. Easy to read
>>    4. Shortish
>>
>> 5. Not a negatively connotated word in another language
>>
>> -Daniel
>> --
>> Txauth mailing list
>> Txauth@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>>
>> --
>> Txauth mailing list
>> Txauth@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> From: Daniel Fett 
>> To: Dick Hardt 
>> Cc: txauth@ietf.org
>> Bcc:
>> Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 20:01:26 +0200
>> Subject: Re: [Txauth] Name criteria
>> Am 28.04.20 um 19:54 schrieb Dick Hardt:
>>
>> Daniel: I'm in favor of the intent of your suggestion -- but curious
>> which languages we would test that in. Doing it for all languages is
>> impractical. A negative connotation may also be a locale rather than
>> language specific.. For example, a fag in the UK (a cigarette) is very
>> different than a fag in the US/Canada (offensive term for a homosexual m=
an).
>>
>> If it is in the Urban Dictionary, it is probably a bad choice ;-)
>>
>> No, seriously, I guess we can just google for " definition", "
>> translation" and see what comes up.
>>
>> -Daniel
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> From: Dick Hardt 
>> To: Daniel Fett 
>> Cc: txauth@ietf.org
>> Bcc:
>> Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 11:11:30 -0700
>> Subject: Re: [Txauth] Name criteria
>> But which languages are we checking? There are alot in the world. The
>> phonetics of the name could be offensive -- ie it could be an offensive
>> word when said in China or Japan. I don't know how to use google to
>> search phonetics.
>> =E1=90=A7
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 11:01 AM Daniel Fett  wrote:
>>
>>> Am 28.04.20 um 19:54 schrieb Dick Hardt:
>>>
>>> Daniel: I'm in favor of the intent of your suggestion -- but curious
>>> which languages we would test that in. Doing it for all languages is
>>> impractical. A negative connotation may also be a locale rather than
>>> language specific... For example, a fag in the UK (a cigarette) is very
>>> different than a fag in the US/Canada (offensive term for a homosexual =
man).
>>>
>>> If it is in the Urban Dictionary, it is probably a bad choice ;-)
>>>
>>> No, seriously, I guess we can just google for " definition", "
>>> translation" and see what comes up.
>>>
>>> -Daniel
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> From: Justin Richer 
>> To: Amanjeev Sethi 
>> Cc: Dick Hardt , Daniel Fett ,
>> txauth@ietf.org
>> Bcc:
>> Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 14:28:48 -0400
>> Subject: Re: [Txauth] Name criteria
>> I think that both =E2=80=9Cintent driven=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cintent re=
gistration=E2=80=9D are good
>> starting points, as that=E2=80=99s one of several key aspects to this pr=
oposed
>> solution space. The flexibility of the interaction (and non-reliance on =
web
>> browsers for it) is another important aspect.
>>
>> So interactive intent of some flavor might be an inspiration.
>>
>>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>>
>> On Apr 28, 2020, at 1:58 PM, Amanjeev Sethi  wrote:
>>
>> Does no one think that "intent driven" can be used for creating a name?
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 28, 2020, at 1:54 PM, Dick Hardt wrote:
>>
>> Daniel: I'm in favor of the intent of your suggestion -- but curious
>> which languages we would test that in. Doing it for all languages is
>> impractical.. A negative connotation may also be a locale rather than
>> language specific. For example, a fag in the UK (a cigarette) is very
>> different than a fag in the US/Canada (offensive term for a homosexual m=
an).
>> =E1=90=A7
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 10:09 AM Daniel Fett  wrote:
>>
>> Am 28.04.20 um 19:04 schrieb Dick Hardt:
>>
>> Revised criteria:
>>
>> Required:
>>
>>    1. No confusion with another protocol, major software project, or
>>    IETF/IRTF WG name
>>    2. no existing registered trademarks in related classes
>>    3. Less than 1M results in Google
>>    4. Descriptive of protocol (this criteria is subjective)
>>
>> Desirable:
>>
>>    1. Straightforward to pronounce
>>    2. Easy to spell
>>    3. Easy to read
>>    4. Shortish
>>
>> 5. Not a negatively connotated word in another language
>>
>> -Daniel
>> --
>> Txauth mailing list
>> Txauth@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>>
>> --
>> Txauth mailing list
>> Txauth@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>>
>>
>> --
>> Txauth mailing list
>> Txauth@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>>
>>
>> Txauth mailing list
>> Txauth@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>>
> --
> Txauth mailing list
> Txauth@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>

--0000000000006bb90305a45f179d
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


    Any other feedback on the criteria?

    I&#=
39;ll start a separate thread for brainstorming names
    3D""=E1=90=A7

    On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 12:44 PM Hankins Parichabutr <<=
a href=3D"mailto:hankins.parichabutr@gmail.com">hankins.parichabutr@gmail.c=
om> wrote:
    @Amanjeev beat me to this...

    I'm also wondering whether "=
;intent" and/or "delegation" are useful to the naming:
    =

    + Intent-based
    + Intentional authorization
    + Intentional delegation

    Regards,=

    Hankins Parichabutr
    . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .


    On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 2:29 PM <txauth-request@ietf.o=
rg> wrote:
    txauth@ietf.org
    

    
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
    
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://www.ietf.org/mailman=
/listinfo/txauth
    
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
    
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 txauth-request@ietf.org
    

    
You can reach the person managing the list at
    
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
    
than "Re: Contents of Txauth digest..."
    
Today's Topics:
    

    
=C2=A0 =C2=A01. Re: Name criteria (Amanjeev Sethi)
    
=C2=A0 =C2=A02. Re: Name criteria (Daniel Fett)
    
=C2=A0 =C2=A03. Re: Name criteria (Dick Hardt)
    
=C2=A0 =C2=A04. Re: Name criteria (Justin Richer)
    



    ---------- Forwarded message ----------
    From:=C2=A0Amanjeev =
Sethi <aj@amanjeev.=
com>
    To:=C2=A0Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>, Daniel Fett <fett@danielfett.de>=

    Cc:=C2=A0txauth@ie=
tf.org
    Bcc:=C2=A0
    Date:=C2=A0Tue, 28 Apr 2020 13:58:00 -0400
    S=
ubject:=C2=A0Re: [Txauth] Name criteria
    Does no one thi=
nk that "intent driven" can be used for creating a name?

    On Tue, Apr 28, 2020, at 1:54 PM, Dick Hardt wrote:
    Daniel: I'm in favor of the in=
tent of your suggestion -- but curious which languages we would test that i=
n. Doing it for all languages is impractical. A negative connotation=C2=A0m=
ay also be a locale rather than language specific. For example, a fag in th=
e UK (a cigarette) is very different than a fag in the US/Canada (offensive=
 term for a homosexual man).
    =E1=90=A7

    On Tue, Apr 28, 20=
20 at 10:09 AM Daniel Fett <fett@danielfett.de> wrote:
    Am 28.04..20 um 19:04 schrieb Dick
      Hardt:
    Revised criteria:

    Required:
    <=
/div>
    1. No confusion with another
                protocol, major software project, or IETF/IRTF WG name
      <=
/li>
    2. no existing registered
                trademarks in related classes
    3. Less than 1M results in
                Google
    4. Descriptive o=
f protocol (this
                criteria is subjective)
    Desirable:<=
br>
    1. Straightforward to pronoun=
ce
    2. Easy to spell=C2=A0
    3. Easy to read
    4. Shortish
    5. Not a negativ=
ely connotated word in another language
    -Daniel
    --
     Txauth mailing list
    --=C2=A0
    Txauth mailing list
    Txauth@ietf.org





    ---------- Forward=
ed message ----------
    From:=C2=A0Daniel Fett <fett@danielfett.de>
    To:=C2=A0Dic=
k Hardt <dick.=
hardt@gmail.com>
    Cc:=C2=A0txauth@ietf.org
    Bcc:=C2=A0
    Date:=C2=A0Tue, 28 Apr 2=
020 20:01:26 +0200
    Subject:=C2=A0Re: [Txauth] Name criteria
    
 =20
   =20
 =20
  
    
    
    Am 28.04.20 um 19:54 schrieb Dick
      Hardt:
    
    
    
    
    
     =20
      
    Daniel: I'm in favor of the intent of your
        suggestion -- but curious which languages we would test that in.
        Doing it for all languages is impractical. A negative
        connotation=C2=A0may also be a locale rather than language specific=
..
        For example, a fag in the UK (a cigarette) is very different
        than a fag in the US/Canada (offensive term for a homosexual
        man).
    
    
    
    
    If it is in the Urban Dictionary, it is probably a bad choice ;-)
    
    No, seriously, I guess we can just google for "<x>
      definition", "<x> translation" and see what come=
s up. 
    
    
    
    
    -Daniel
    
    
    
  
    




    ---------- Forwarded message ----------
    From:=C2=A0Dick Hard=
t <dick.hardt@=
gmail.com>
    To:=C2=A0Daniel Fett <fett@danielfett.de>
    Cc:=C2=A0txauth@ietf.org
    Bcc:=
=C2=A0
    Date:=C2=A0Tue, 28 Apr 2020 11:11:30 -0700
    Subject:=C2=A0Re: [=
Txauth] Name criteria
    But which languages are we checki=
ng? There are alot in the world. The phonetics of the name could be offensi=
ve -- ie it could be an offensive word when said in=C2=A0China or Japan. I =
don't know how to use google to search=C2=A0phonetics.=C2=A0
    3D""=E1=90=A7

    On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 11:01 AM Daniel Fett <=
fett@danielfett.de<=
/a>> wrote:
    
 =20
   =20
 =20
  
    
    
    Am 28.04.20 um 19:54 schrieb Dick
      Hardt:
    
    
    
    
    
     =20
      
    Daniel: I'm in favor of the intent of your
        suggestion -- but curious which languages we would test that in.
        Doing it for all languages is impractical. A negative
        connotation=C2=A0may also be a locale rather than language specific=
...
        For example, a fag in the UK (a cigarette) is very different
        than a fag in the US/Canada (offensive term for a homosexual
        man).
    
    
    
    
    If it is in the Urban Dictionary, it is probably a bad choice ;-)
    
    No, seriously, I guess we can just google for "<x>
      definition", "<x> translation" and see what come=
s up. 
    
    
    
    
    -Daniel
    
    
    
  
    


    



    ---------- Forwarded message ----------
    From:=C2=A0Justin Ri=
cher <    jricher@mit.e=
du>
    To:=C2=A0Amanjeev Sethi <aj@amanjeev.com>
    Cc:=C2=A0Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com<=
/a>>, Daniel Fett <fett@danielfett.de>, txauth@ietf.org
    Bcc:=C2=A0
    Date:=C2=A0Tue, 28 Apr 202=
0 14:28:48 -0400
    Subject:=C2=A0Re: [Txauth] Name criteria
    I thin=
k that both =E2=80=9Cintent driven=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cintent registratio=
n=E2=80=9D are good starting points, as that=E2=80=99s one of several key a=
spects to this proposed solution space. The flexibility of the interaction =
(and non-reliance on web browsers for it) is another important aspect.
    =

    So interactive intent of some flavor might be an inspiration=
.

    =C2=A0=E2=80=94 Justin

    On Apr 28, 2020, at 1:58 PM, Amanjeev Sethi <aj@amanjeev.com> wrote:
    Does no one think that "intent driven=
" can be used for creating a name?

    <=
/div>
    On Tue, Apr 28, 2020, at 1:54 PM, Dick Hardt wrot=
e:
    Daniel: I'=
;m in favor of the intent of your suggestion -- but curious which languages=
 we would test that in. Doing it for all languages is impractical.. A negat=
ive connotation=C2=A0may also be a locale rather than language specific. Fo=
r example, a fag in the UK (a cigarette) is very different than a fag in th=
e US/Canada (offensive term for a homosexual man).
    3D""=E1=90=A7

    On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 10:09 AM Daniel Fett <fett@danielfett.de> wrote:
    Am 28.04.20 um 19:04 schrieb Dick H=
ardt:
    =

    Revised criteria:

    Required:
    1. No confusion with another protocol, maj=
or software project, or IETF/IRTF WG name
    2. no existing registered trademarks in related classes
    3. Less than 1M results in Google
    4. Descriptive of protocol (this criteria is subjective)
      =

    Desirable:
    1. Straightforward to pronounce
    2. E=
asy to spell=C2=A0
    3. Easy to read
      <=
/li>
    4. Shortish
    =

    5. Not a negatively connotated word in another language
    =

    -Daniel
    --
    --=C2=A0
    Txaut=
h mailing list

    --=C2=A0
    Txauth@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org=
/mailman/listinfo/txauth

    =
Txauth mailing list
    
Txauth@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
    

-- 
    
Txauth mailing list
    
Txauth@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
    


--0000000000006bb90305a45f179d--


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Cc: Dick Hardt , Daniel Fett , txauth@ietf.org
To: Yaron Sheffer 
References:      <5f2a0446-9b87-3251-246f-5d7b84e9822a@danielfett.de>  <9938e1eb-c4d8-d842-d32f-3aac86f123eb@danielfett.de>  <0064DFB4-0521-4621-B3F4-780FDC4B1CDE@gmail.com>
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+1. We should avoid things that we are aware are offensive somewhere. =
Our knowledge will not be universal, but having the =E2=80=9CFederation =
Under Cryptographic Keys=E2=80=9D protocol would be a bad call. :)

 =E2=80=94 Justin

> On Apr 28, 2020, at 2:31 PM, Yaron Sheffer  =
wrote:
>=20
> If someone in the working group finds it offensive, it is. Not very =
scientific but IMO good enough.
> =20
> From: Txauth > on behalf of Dick Hardt =
>
> Date: Tuesday, April 28, 2020 at 21:12
> To: Daniel Fett >
> Cc: >
> Subject: Re: [Txauth] Name criteria
> =20
> But which languages are we checking? There are alot in the world. The =
phonetics of the name could be offensive -- ie it could be an offensive =
word when said in China or Japan. I don't know how to use google to =
search phonetics.=20
> =E1=90=A7
> =20
> On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 11:01 AM Daniel Fett > wrote:
>> Am 28.04.20 um 19:54 schrieb Dick Hardt:
>>> Daniel: I'm in favor of the intent of your suggestion -- but curious =
which languages we would test that in. Doing it for all languages is =
impractical. A negative connotation may also be a locale rather than =
language specific.. For example, a fag in the UK (a cigarette) is very =
different than a fag in the US/Canada (offensive term for a homosexual =
man).
>> If it is in the Urban Dictionary, it is probably a bad choice ;-)
>> No, seriously, I guess we can just google for " definition", " =
translation" and see what comes up.=20
>> -Daniel
>> =20
>=20
> -- Txauth mailing list Txauth@ietf.org  =
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth =
--=20
> Txauth mailing list
> Txauth@ietf.org 
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth =



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+1. =
We should avoid things that we are aware are offensive =
somewhere. Our knowledge will not be universal, but having the =
=E2=80=9CFederation Under Cryptographic Keys=E2=80=9D protocol would be =
a bad call. :)

     =E2=80=94 Justin

    On Apr =
28, 2020, at 2:31 PM, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:

    If =
someone in the working group finds it offensive, it is. Not very =
scientific but IMO good enough.
     
    From: Txauth <txauth-bounces@ietf.org> =
on behalf of Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
    Date: Tuesday, April 28, 2020 =
at 21:12
    To: Daniel Fett <fett@danielfett.de>
    Cc: <txauth@ietf.org>
    Subject: Re: [Txauth] Name =
criteria
     
    But which languages are we checking? There are alot in the =
world. The phonetics of the name could be offensive -- ie it could be an =
offensive word when said in China or Japan. I don't know how to use =
google to search phonetics. 
    3D"Image=E1=90=A7
     
    On Tue, =
Apr 28, 2020 at 11:01 AM Daniel Fett <fett@danielfett.de> =
wrote:
    Am 28.04.20 um 19:54 =
schrieb Dick Hardt:
    Daniel: =
I'm in favor of the intent of your suggestion -- but curious which =
languages we would test that in. Doing it for all languages is =
impractical. A negative connotation may also be a locale rather =
than language specific.. For example, a fag in the UK (a cigarette) is =
very different than a fag in the US/Canada (offensive term for a =
homosexual man).
    If it is in the Urban Dictionary, it is probably a bad choice =
;-)
    No, seriously, I guess we =
can just google for "<x> definition", "<x> translation" and =
see what comes up. 
    -Daniel
     
    -- Txauth mailing list Txauth@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
    -- Txauth mailing list
    Txauth@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth

    =

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From: Roman Danyliw 
To: "txauth@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: AD review of post IETF 107 charter for TXAuth 
Thread-Index: AdYfIwxSTEVM1mO0SouIA0SK25TKyQ==
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--_000_e455ccfc21a547688d71d3f7b41da4bbcertorg_
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Hi!

Coming out of the discussion at the virtual IETF 107 meeting [2], these ite=
ms of feedback were identified with the proposed charter [1]:

=3D=3D[ snip from the minutes [2] ]=3D=3D
  * what use cases? what parts of OpenID?
  * what is meant by identity?
  * what is being done by reference, what is being invented?
  * is session management in scope?
=3D=3D[ snip ]=3D=3D

Subsequent updates to the charter appear to address this feedback.  The lat=
est version being 00-04 [3].  The diff from the pre-IETF consensus call ver=
sion [1] and this new version [3] can be reviewed at [4].

We already got a sense of interest from the first consensus call [5].  I se=
e there is a discussion about exploring a new name.  Let's let that finish,=
 but not run too long before proceeding for an initial IESG review.

Regards,
Roman

PS, if you're wondering why there are so many version of the charter now in=
 the datatracker, I had some difficulties uploading the text.  I thought my=
 submission were not being accepted when I got an error, but in fact they w=
ere.  The legend for the datatracker charter versions is:

00-00 =3D pre IETF 107 consensus call
00-01, 02, 03 =3D Dick+Yaron's post IETF 107 edits from https://mailarchive=
.ietf.org/arch/msg/txauth/UgGztdOx0lR9NvzBgmp8OMelABw/
00-04 =3D Justin's edits from https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/txauth/=
LJL5fjngEA9WaXzWacM0S-fD1Jc/

[1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-txauth/00-00/
[2] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/minutes-107-txauth/
[3] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-txauth/
[4] https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%=
2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-txauth%2Fwithmilestones-00-00.txt&url2=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2=
Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-txauth%2Fwithmilestones-00-04.tx=
t
[5] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/txauth/G7kcSqApAkKrdjnr0NfKOTu1eR=
g/





--_000_e455ccfc21a547688d71d3f7b41da4bbcertorg_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable









    

    Hi!
    

     
    

    Coming out of the discussion at the virtual IETF 107=
 meeting [2], these items of feedback were identified with the proposed cha=
rter [1]:
    

     
    

    =3D=3D[ snip from the minutes [2] ]=3D=3D=

    

      * what use cases? what parts of OpenID?<=
/o:p>
    

      * what is meant by identity?
    

      * what is being done by reference, what is be=
ing invented?
    

      * is session management in scope?<=
/p>

    =3D=3D[ snip ]=3D=3D
    

     
    

    Subsequent updates to the charter appear to address =
this feedback.  The latest version being 00-04 [3].  The diff fro=
m the pre-IETF consensus call version [1] and this new version [3] can be r=
eviewed at [4].
    

     
    

    We already got a sense of interest from the first co=
nsensus call [5].  I see there is a discussion about exploring a new n=
ame.  Let’s let that finish, but not run too long before proceed=
ing for an initial IESG review.
    

     
    

    Regards,
    

    Roman
    

     
    

    PS, if you’re wondering why there are so many =
version of the charter now in the datatracker, I had some difficulties uplo=
ading the text.  I thought my submission were not being accepted when =
I got an error, but in fact they were.  The legend
 for the datatracker charter versions is:
    

     
    

    00-00 =3D pre IETF 107 consensus call
    

    00-01, 02, 03 =3D Dick+Yaron’s post IETF 1=
07 edits from https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/txauth/UgGztdOx0lR9NvzB=
gmp8OMelABw/
    

    00-04 =3D Justin’s edits from https://mailarch=
ive.ietf.org/arch/msg/txauth/LJL5fjngEA9WaXzWacM0S-fD1Jc/
    

     
    

    [1] 
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-txauth/00-00/<=
/p>

    [2] 
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/minutes-107-txauth/
    

    [3] 
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-txauth/
    

    [4] 
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdo=
c%2Fcharter-ietf-txauth%2Fwithmilestones-00-00.txt&url2=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2=
Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-txauth%2Fwithmilestones-00-04.tx=
t
    

    [5] 
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/txauth/G7kcSqApAkKrdjnr0NfKOTu1eRg/
    

     
    

     
    

     
    

     
    

    



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In-Reply-To: 
From: Vijay IETF 
Date: Fri, 1 May 2020 01:44:52 +0530
Message-ID: 
To: Fabien Imbault 
Cc: Justin Richer , txauth@ietf.org
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005a238305a487b81c"
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Subject: Re: [Txauth] alignment on Justin's use of "transactional" adjective
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Late to the party. Catching up.
+1 for NgAuth (for its new meaning, not for what I suggested earlier)
+1 for IdAuth (gives some clues that Identity is innate to authorization)

+2 for TxAuth (I really don't see why it is so bad. In fact the
"transaction" is what drew me to this group)

Cheers!

On Fri, 24 Apr 2020 at 04:57, Fabien Imbault 
wrote:

> Maybe :
>
> Transactional -> Negociated
> Tx -> Ng
> TxAuth -> NgAuth (which should also be fine with people that prefered
> "nextgen").
>
>  ?
>
>
> Le jeu. 23 avr. 2020 =C3=A0 16:54, Fabien Imbault  a
> =C3=A9crit :
>
>> Yes indeed, it would happen.
>> ah... naming things...
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 4:31 PM Justin Richer  wrote:
>>
>>> I=E2=80=99d be a little of the =E2=80=9CN=E2=80=9D coming off as =E2=80=
=9Cnegative=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cnot=E2=80=9D. As in,
>>> this is =E2=80=9Cnot auth=E2=80=9D. :P
>>>
>>>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>>>
>>> On Apr 23, 2020, at 10:06 AM, Fabien Imbault 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> +1 to NAP proposed by Mike.
>>>
>>> With that I'll rest easy (in software and elsewhere) ;-)
>>>
>>> NAuth would do too (N for negociated)?
>>>
>>> Fabien
>>>
>>> --
>>> Txauth mailing list
>>> Txauth@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>>>
>>>
>>> --
> Txauth mailing list
> Txauth@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>

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    Late to the party. Catching up.
    +1 for NgAu=
th (for its new meaning, not for what I suggested earlier)
    +1=
 for IdAuth (gives some clues that Identity is innate to authorization)

    +2 for TxAuth (I really don't see why it is so ba=
d. In fact the "transaction" is what drew me to this group)
    =


    Cheers!

    <=
div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, 24 Apr 2020 at 04:57, Fabien I=
mbault <fabien.imbault@gmail=
.com> wrote:
    Maybe :

    Transactional -> Negociated
    Tx -> N=
g
    TxAuth -> NgAuth (which should also be fine wit=
h people that prefered "nextgen").=C2=A0
    <=
br>
    =C2=A0?=C2=A0

    <=
div dir=3D"auto">
    Le jeu. 23 avr. 2020 =C3=A0 16:54, Fabien Imbault &=
lt;fabien.imb=
ault@gmail.com> a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:
    Yes indeed, it would happe=
n.
    ah... naming things...=C2=A0

    <=
div class=3D"gmail_quote">
    On Thu, Apr=
 23, 2020 at 4:31 PM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:
    I=E2=80=99d be a li=
ttle of the =E2=80=9CN=E2=80=9D coming off as =E2=80=9Cnegative=E2=80=9D or=
 =E2=80=9Cnot=E2=80=9D. As in, this is =E2=80=9Cnot auth=E2=80=9D. :P
    <=
br>
    =C2=A0=E2=80=94 Justin

    =

    On Apr 23, 2020, at 10:06 AM, Fabien Imbault <fabien.imbault@=
gmail.com> wrote:

    +1 to NAP =
proposed by Mike.
    With that I'll rest easy (in software and elsew=
here) ;-)
    =
NAuth would do too (N for negociated)?
    Fabien
    
-- 
    Txauth mailing list
    Txauth@ietf.org
    https:=
//www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth

    =

    

    
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In-Reply-To: 
From: Vijay IETF 
Date: Fri, 1 May 2020 02:15:01 +0530
Message-ID: 
To: Justin Richer 
Cc: Yaron Sheffer , Daniel Fett , txauth@ietf.org, Dick Hardt 
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000033a19305a48824f0"
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [Txauth] Name criteria
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You meant "Federation Using Cryptographic Keys" of course. Why still carry
the remnants of the king?
Goes well with "Information Technology". I like it :-)

On Wed, 29 Apr 2020 at 21:10, Justin Richer  wrote:

> +1. We should avoid things that we are *aware* are offensive somewhere.
> Our knowledge will not be universal, but having the =E2=80=9CFederation U=
nder
> Cryptographic Keys=E2=80=9D protocol would be a bad call. :)
>
>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>
> On Apr 28, 2020, at 2:31 PM, Yaron Sheffer  wrote:
>
> If someone in the working group finds it offensive, it is. Not very
> scientific but IMO good enough.
>
> *From: *Txauth  on behalf of Dick Hardt <
> dick.hardt@gmail.com>
> *Date: *Tuesday, April 28, 2020 at 21:12
> *To: *Daniel Fett 
> *Cc: *
> *Subject: *Re: [Txauth] Name criteria
>
> But which languages are we checking? There are alot in the world. The
> phonetics of the name could be offensive -- ie it could be an offensive
> word when said in China or Japan. I don't know how to use google to
> search phonetics.
> [image: Image removed by sender.]=E1=90=A7
>
> On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 11:01 AM Daniel Fett  wrote:
>
> Am 28.04.20 um 19:54 schrieb Dick Hardt:
>
> Daniel: I'm in favor of the intent of your suggestion -- but curious whic=
h
> languages we would test that in. Doing it for all languages is impractica=
l.
> A negative connotation may also be a locale rather than language specific=
..
> For example, a fag in the UK (a cigarette) is very different than a fag i=
n
> the US/Canada (offensive term for a homosexual man).
>
> If it is in the Urban Dictionary, it is probably a bad choice ;-)
> No, seriously, I guess we can just google for " definition", "
> translation" and see what comes up.
> -Daniel
>
>
> -- Txauth mailing list Txauth@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
> --
> Txauth mailing list
> Txauth@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>
>
> --
> Txauth mailing list
> Txauth@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>

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    You meant "Federation Using Cryptographic Keys&q=
uot; of course. Why still carry the remnants of the king?
    Goes we=
ll with "Information Technology". I like it :-)
    On Wed, =
29 Apr 2020 at 21:10, Justin Richer <=
jricher@mit.edu> wrote:
    +1. We should avoi=
d things that we are aware are offensive somewhere. Our knowledge wi=
ll not be universal, but having the =E2=80=9CFederation Under Cryptographic=
 Keys=E2=80=9D protocol would be a bad call. :)

    =C2=A0=
=E2=80=94 Justin

    On Apr 28, 2020=
, at 2:31 PM, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:

    If someone in the working group finds it offensive, =
it is. Not very scientific but IMO good enough.
    From:=C2=A0Txauth <txauth-bounces@=
ietf.org> on behalf of Dick Hardt <=
dick.hardt@gmail.com>
    Date:=C2=A0Tuesday, Apr=
il 28, 2020 at 21:12
    To:=C2=A0Daniel Fett <fett@danielfett.de>
    Cc:=C2=A0<txauth@ietf.org>
    Subject:=C2=A0    Re: [Txauth] Name criteria
    <=
/div>
    =C2=A0
    But whic=
h languages are we checking? There are alot in the world. The phonetics of =
the name could be offensive -- ie it could be an offensive word when said i=
n=C2=A0China or Japan. I don't know how to use google to search=C2=A0ph=
onetics.=C2=A0
    3D"Image=E1=90=A7
    =C2=A0
    =
On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 11:01 AM Daniel Fett <fett@danielfett.de> wrote:
    Am 28.04.20 um 19:54 schrieb Dick Hardt:<=
/u>
    Daniel: I'm in favor of the intent of your sug=
gestion -- but curious which languages we would test that in. Doing it for =
all languages is impractical. A negative connotation=C2=A0may also be a loc=
ale rather than language specific.. For example, a fag in the UK (a cigaret=
te) is very different than a fag in the US/Canada (offensive term for a hom=
osexual man).
    If it is in the Ur=
ban Dictionary, it is probably a bad choice ;-)
    No,=
 seriously, I guess we can just google for "<x> definition"=
, "<x> translation" and see what comes up.=C2=A0
    -Daniel
    =C2=
=A0
    --=C2=A0
    Txauth mailing list
    Txauth@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth

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    3D""=E1=90=A7
    On Tu=
e, Apr 28, 2020 at 11:01 AM Daniel Fett <fett@danielfett.de> wrote:
    
 =20
   =20
 =20
  
    
    
    Am 28.04.20 um 19:54 schrieb Dick
      Hardt:
    
    
    
    
    
     =20
      
    Daniel: I'm in favor of the intent of your
        suggestion -- but curious which languages we would test that in.
        Doing it for all languages is impractical. A negative
        connotation=C2=A0may also be a locale rather than language specific=
.
        For example, a fag in the UK (a cigarette) is very different
        than a fag in the US/Canada (offensive term for a homosexual
        man).
    
    
    
    
    If it is in the Urban Dictionary, it is probably a bad choice ;-)
    
    No, seriously, I guess we can just google for "<x>
      definition", "<x> translation" and see what come=
s up. 
    
    
    
    
    -Daniel
    
    
    
  
    


    

--000000000000611e3305a45dc4f3--


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From: Justin Richer 
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Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 14:28:48 -0400
In-Reply-To: 
Cc: Dick Hardt , Daniel Fett , txauth@ietf.org
To: Amanjeev Sethi 
References:      <5f2a0446-9b87-3251-246f-5d7b84e9822a@danielfett.de>  
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I think that both =E2=80=9Cintent driven=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cintent =
registration=E2=80=9D are good starting points, as that=E2=80=99s one of =
several key aspects to this proposed solution space. The flexibility of =
the interaction (and non-reliance on web browsers for it) is another =
important aspect.

So interactive intent of some flavor might be an inspiration.

 =E2=80=94 Justin

> On Apr 28, 2020, at 1:58 PM, Amanjeev Sethi  wrote:
>=20
> Does no one think that "intent driven" can be used for creating a =
name?
>=20
> On Tue, Apr 28, 2020, at 1:54 PM, Dick Hardt wrote:
>> Daniel: I'm in favor of the intent of your suggestion -- but curious =
which languages we would test that in. Doing it for all languages is =
impractical. A negative connotation may also be a locale rather than =
language specific. For example, a fag in the UK (a cigarette) is very =
different than a fag in the US/Canada (offensive term for a homosexual =
man).
>> =E1=90=A7
>>=20
>> On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 10:09 AM Daniel Fett > wrote:
>> Am 28.04.20 um 19:04 schrieb Dick Hardt:
>>> Revised criteria:
>>>=20
>>> Required:
>>> No confusion with another protocol, major software project, or =
IETF/IRTF WG name
>>> no existing registered trademarks in related classes
>>> Less than 1M results in Google
>>> Descriptive of protocol (this criteria is subjective)
>>> Desirable:
>>> Straightforward to pronounce
>>> Easy to spell=20
>>> Easy to read
>>> Shortish
>> 5. Not a negatively connotated word in another language
>>=20
>> -Daniel
>>=20
>> --
>> Txauth mailing list
>> Txauth@ietf.org 
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth =

>> --=20
>> Txauth mailing list
>> Txauth@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>>=20
>=20
> --=20
> Txauth mailing list
> Txauth@ietf.org 
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth =


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I =
think that both =E2=80=9Cintent driven=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cintent =
registration=E2=80=9D are good starting points, as that=E2=80=99s one of =
several key aspects to this proposed solution space. The flexibility of =
the interaction (and non-reliance on web browsers for it) is another =
important aspect.

    So =
interactive intent of some flavor might be an inspiration.

     =E2=80=
=94 Justin

    On Apr 28, 2020, at 1:58 PM, Amanjeev Sethi =
<aj@amanjeev.com> =
wrote:

    Does =
no one think that "intent driven" can be used for creating a name?

    On Tue, Apr 28, 2020, at 1:54 PM, =
Dick Hardt wrote:
    Daniel: =
I'm in favor of the intent of your suggestion -- but curious which =
languages we would test that in. Doing it for all languages is =
impractical. A negative connotation may also be a locale rather =
than language specific. For example, a fag in the UK (a cigarette) is =
very different than a fag in the US/Canada (offensive term for a =
homosexual man).
    3D""=E1=90=A7

    On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 10:09 AM Daniel Fett =
<fett@danielfett.de> wrote:
    Am 28.04.20 um 19:04 schrieb Dick =
Hardt:
    Revised=
 criteria:

    Required:
    1. No confusion with =
another protocol, major software project, or IETF/IRTF WG name
    2. no existing =
registered trademarks in related classes
    3. Less than 1M results in =
Google
    4. Descriptive of protocol (this criteria is subjective)
    Desirable:
    1. Straightforward to pronounce
    2. Easy to spell 
    3. Easy to =
read
    4. Shortish
    5. Not =
a negatively connotated word in another language
    -Daniel
    --
    Txauth mailing list
    Txauth@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
    -- 
    Txauth mailing list
    Txauth@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth


    -- 
    Txauth mailing list
    Txauth@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth

    =

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Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 21:31:02 +0300
From: Yaron Sheffer 
To: Dick Hardt , Daniel Fett 
CC: 
Message-ID: <0064DFB4-0521-4621-B3F4-780FDC4B1CDE@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [Txauth] Name criteria
References:      <5f2a0446-9b87-3251-246f-5d7b84e9822a@danielfett.de>  <9938e1eb-c4d8-d842-d32f-3aac86f123eb@danielfett.de> 
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If someone in the working group finds it offensive, it is. Not very scienti=
fic but IMO good enough.

=20

From: Txauth  on behalf of Dick Hardt 
Date: Tuesday, April 28, 2020 at 21:12
To: Daniel Fett 
Cc: 
Subject: Re: [Txauth] Name criteria

=20

But which languages are we checking? There are alot in the world. The phone=
tics of the name could be offensive -- ie it could be an offensive word when=
 said in China or Japan. I don't know how to use google to search phonetics.=
=20

=E1=90=A7

=20

On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 11:01 AM Daniel Fett  wrote:

Am 28.04.20 um 19:54 schrieb Dick Hardt:

Daniel: I'm in favor of the intent of your suggestion -- but curious which =
languages we would test that in. Doing it for all languages is impractical. =
A negative connotation may also be a locale rather than language specific.. =
For example, a fag in the UK (a cigarette) is very different than a fag in t=
he US/Canada (offensive term for a homosexual man).

If it is in the Urban Dictionary, it is probably a bad choice ;-)

No, seriously, I guess we can just google for " definition", " transl=
ation" and see what comes up.=20

-Daniel

=20

-- Txauth mailing list Txauth@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinf=
o/txauth=20


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    If someone in the working g=
roup finds it offensive, it is. Not very scientific but IMO good enough.
     
    =
From: Txauth <txauth-bounces@ietf.org> on beha=
lf of Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
    Date: Tuesday, April=
 28, 2020 at 21:12
    To: Daniel Fett <fett@danielfett.de>
    <=
b>Cc:     <txauth@ietf.org>
    Subject: Re: [Txauth] Name crite=
ria
     
    =

    But which languages are we checking? There are=
 alot in the world. The phonetics of the name could be offensive -- ie it co=
uld be an offensive word when said in China or Japan. I don't know how =
to use google to search phonetics. 
    3D"Image=E1=90=A7
     
    On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 11:01 AM Daniel Fett <fett@danielfett.de> wrote:
    Am 28.0=
4.20 um 19:54 schrieb Dick Hardt:
    Daniel: I'm in fa=
vor of the intent of your suggestion -- but curious which languages we would=
 test that in. Doing it for all languages is impractical. A negative connota=
tion may also be a locale rather than language specific.. For example, =
a fag in the UK (a cigarette) is very different than a fag in the US/Canada =
(offensive term for a homosexual man).
    I=
f it is in the Urban Dictionary, it is probably a bad choice ;-)<=
/p>
    No, seriously, I guess we can just google for "<x> definiti=
on", "<x> translation" and see what comes up. 
    -Daniel
     
    -- Txauth mailing list Txauth@ietf.or=
g https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth 
    <=
/html>

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From: Dick Hardt 
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 11:33:35 -0700
Message-ID: 
To: Yaron Sheffer 
Cc: Daniel Fett , txauth@ietf.org
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Works for me.

Revised criteria:

Required:

   1. No confusion with another protocol, major software project, or
   IETF/IRTF WG name
   2. no existing registered trademarks in related classes
   3. Less than 1M results in Google
   4. Descriptive of protocol (this criteria is subjective)
   5. Not offensive to a member of the mail list.

Desirable:

   1. Straightforward to pronounce
   2. Easy to spell
   3. Easy to read
   4. Shortish


On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 11:31 AM Yaron Sheffer 
wrote:

> If someone in the working group finds it offensive, it is. Not very
> scientific but IMO good enough.
>
>
>
> *From: *Txauth  on behalf of Dick Hardt <
> dick.hardt@gmail.com>
> *Date: *Tuesday, April 28, 2020 at 21:12
> *To: *Daniel Fett 
> *Cc: *
> *Subject: *Re: [Txauth] Name criteria
>
>
>
> But which languages are we checking? There are alot in the world. The
> phonetics of the name could be offensive -- ie it could be an offensive
> word when said in China or Japan. I don't know how to use google to
> search phonetics.
>
> [image: Image removed by sender.]=E1=90=A7
>
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 11:01 AM Daniel Fett  wrote:
>
> Am 28.04.20 um 19:54 schrieb Dick Hardt:
>
> Daniel: I'm in favor of the intent of your suggestion -- but curious whic=
h
> languages we would test that in. Doing it for all languages is impractica=
l.
> A negative connotation may also be a locale rather than language specific=
..
> For example, a fag in the UK (a cigarette) is very different than a fag i=
n
> the US/Canada (offensive term for a homosexual man).
>
> If it is in the Urban Dictionary, it is probably a bad choice ;-)
>
> No, seriously, I guess we can just google for " definition", "
> translation" and see what comes up.
>
> -Daniel
>
>
>
> -- Txauth mailing list Txauth@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>

--0000000000004f090405a45e13c0
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


    Works for me.

    Revised criteria:

    Required:
    1. No confu=
sion with another protocol, major software project, or IETF/IRTF WG name
    2. no existing registered trademarks in related classes
    3. Less than 1M results in Google
    4. Descriptive of protocol (this criteria is subjective)
      5. <=
li style=3D"margin-left:15px">Not offensive to a member of the mail list.
    Desirable:
    1. Straightforwar=
d to pronounce
    2. Easy to spell=C2=A0
      3. <=
li style=3D"margin-left:15px">Easy to read
    3. Shortish

    On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 11:31 AM Ya=
ron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.=
com> wrote:
    If someone in the working group finds it offensiv=
e, it is. Not very scientific but IMO good enough.
    =C2=A0
    From: Txau=
th <txauth-=
bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>
    Date=
: Tuesday, April 28, 2020 at 21:12
    To: Daniel Fett <fett@danielfett.de>=
;
    Cc: <tx=
auth@ietf.org>
    Subject: Re: [Txauth] Name criteria<=
u>
    =C2=A0
    =

    But which languages are we checking? Ther=
e are alot in the world. The phonetics of the name could be offensive -- ie=
 it could be an offensive word when said in=C2=A0China or Japan. I don'=
t know how to use google to search=C2=A0phonetics.=C2=A0
    <=
/div>
    3D"Image==E1=90=A7
    =C2=A0
    On =
Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 11:01 AM Daniel Fett <fett@danielfett.de> wrote:<=
/p>
    Am 28.04.2=
0 um 19:54 schrieb Dick Hardt:
    Daniel: I'=
;m in favor of the intent of your suggestion -- but curious which languages=
 we would test that in. Doing it for all languages is impractical. A negati=
ve connotation=C2=A0may also be a locale rather than language specific.. Fo=
r example, a fag in the UK (a cigarette) is very different than a fag in th=
e US/Canada (offensive term for a homosexual man).
    <=
/blockquote>
    If it is in the Urban Dictionary, it is probably a bad choic=
e ;-)
    No, seriously, I guess we can just google for &qu=
ot;<x> definition", "<x> translation" and see wh=
at comes up. 
    -Daniel
    =C2=A0
    -- Txauth mailing list Txauth@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth <=
u>
    

    

--0000000000004f090405a45e13c0--


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From: Hankins Parichabutr 
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 15:42:22 -0400
Message-ID: 
To: txauth@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [Txauth] Name criteria
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@Amanjeev beat me to this...

I'm also wondering whether "intent" and/or "delegation" are useful to the
naming:
+ Intent-based
+ Intentional authorization
+ Intentional delegation

Regards,
Hankins Parichabutr
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .


On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 2:29 PM  wrote:

> Send Txauth mailing list submissions to
>         txauth@ietf.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>         https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>         txauth-request@ietf.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>         txauth-owner@ietf.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Txauth digest..."
> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: Name criteria (Amanjeev Sethi)
>    2. Re: Name criteria (Daniel Fett)
>    3. Re: Name criteria (Dick Hardt)
>    4. Re: Name criteria (Justin Richer)
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Amanjeev Sethi 
> To: Dick Hardt , Daniel Fett 
> Cc: txauth@ietf.org
> Bcc:
> Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 13:58:00 -0400
> Subject: Re: [Txauth] Name criteria
> Does no one think that "intent driven" can be used for creating a name?
>
> On Tue, Apr 28, 2020, at 1:54 PM, Dick Hardt wrote:
>
> Daniel: I'm in favor of the intent of your suggestion -- but curious whic=
h
> languages we would test that in. Doing it for all languages is impractica=
l.
> A negative connotation may also be a locale rather than language specific=
.
> For example, a fag in the UK (a cigarette) is very different than a fag i=
n
> the US/Canada (offensive term for a homosexual man).
> =E1=90=A7
>
> On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 10:09 AM Daniel Fett  wrote:
>
> Am 28.04.20 um 19:04 schrieb Dick Hardt:
>
> Revised criteria:
>
> Required:
>
>    1. No confusion with another protocol, major software project, or
>    IETF/IRTF WG name
>    2. no existing registered trademarks in related classes
>    3. Less than 1M results in Google
>    4. Descriptive of protocol (this criteria is subjective)
>
> Desirable:
>
>    1. Straightforward to pronounce
>    2. Easy to spell
>    3. Easy to read
>    4. Shortish
>
> 5. Not a negatively connotated word in another language
>
> -Daniel
> --
> Txauth mailing list
> Txauth@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>
> --
> Txauth mailing list
> Txauth@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Daniel Fett 
> To: Dick Hardt 
> Cc: txauth@ietf.org
> Bcc:
> Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 20:01:26 +0200
> Subject: Re: [Txauth] Name criteria
> Am 28.04.20 um 19:54 schrieb Dick Hardt:
>
> Daniel: I'm in favor of the intent of your suggestion -- but curious whic=
h
> languages we would test that in. Doing it for all languages is impractica=
l.
> A negative connotation may also be a locale rather than language specific=
.
> For example, a fag in the UK (a cigarette) is very different than a fag i=
n
> the US/Canada (offensive term for a homosexual man).
>
> If it is in the Urban Dictionary, it is probably a bad choice ;-)
>
> No, seriously, I guess we can just google for " definition", "
> translation" and see what comes up.
>
> -Daniel
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Dick Hardt 
> To: Daniel Fett 
> Cc: txauth@ietf.org
> Bcc:
> Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 11:11:30 -0700
> Subject: Re: [Txauth] Name criteria
> But which languages are we checking? There are alot in the world. The
> phonetics of the name could be offensive -- ie it could be an offensive
> word when said in China or Japan. I don't know how to use google to
> search phonetics.
> =E1=90=A7
>
> On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 11:01 AM Daniel Fett  wrote:
>
>> Am 28.04.20 um 19:54 schrieb Dick Hardt:
>>
>> Daniel: I'm in favor of the intent of your suggestion -- but curious
>> which languages we would test that in. Doing it for all languages is
>> impractical. A negative connotation may also be a locale rather than
>> language specific.. For example, a fag in the UK (a cigarette) is very
>> different than a fag in the US/Canada (offensive term for a homosexual m=
an).
>>
>> If it is in the Urban Dictionary, it is probably a bad choice ;-)
>>
>> No, seriously, I guess we can just google for " definition", "
>> translation" and see what comes up.
>>
>> -Daniel
>>
>>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Justin Richer 
> To: Amanjeev Sethi 
> Cc: Dick Hardt , Daniel Fett ,
> txauth@ietf.org
> Bcc:
> Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 14:28:48 -0400
> Subject: Re: [Txauth] Name criteria
> I think that both =E2=80=9Cintent driven=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cintent reg=
istration=E2=80=9D are good
> starting points, as that=E2=80=99s one of several key aspects to this pro=
posed
> solution space. The flexibility of the interaction (and non-reliance on w=
eb
> browsers for it) is another important aspect.
>
> So interactive intent of some flavor might be an inspiration.
>
>  =E2=80=94 Justin
>
> On Apr 28, 2020, at 1:58 PM, Amanjeev Sethi  wrote:
>
> Does no one think that "intent driven" can be used for creating a name?
>
> On Tue, Apr 28, 2020, at 1:54 PM, Dick Hardt wrote:
>
> Daniel: I'm in favor of the intent of your suggestion -- but curious whic=
h
> languages we would test that in. Doing it for all languages is impractica=
l.
> A negative connotation may also be a locale rather than language specific=
.
> For example, a fag in the UK (a cigarette) is very different than a fag i=
n
> the US/Canada (offensive term for a homosexual man).
> =E1=90=A7
>
> On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 10:09 AM Daniel Fett  wrote:
>
> Am 28.04.20 um 19:04 schrieb Dick Hardt:
>
> Revised criteria:
>
> Required:
>
>    1. No confusion with another protocol, major software project, or
>    IETF/IRTF WG name
>    2. no existing registered trademarks in related classes
>    3. Less than 1M results in Google
>    4. Descriptive of protocol (this criteria is subjective)
>
> Desirable:
>
>    1. Straightforward to pronounce
>    2. Easy to spell
>    3. Easy to read
>    4. Shortish
>
> 5. Not a negatively connotated word in another language
>
> -Daniel
> --
> Txauth mailing list
> Txauth@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>
> --
> Txauth mailing list
> Txauth@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>
>
> --
> Txauth mailing list
> Txauth@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>
>
> Txauth mailing list
> Txauth@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
>

--000000000000f244e305a45f09fc
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


    @Amanjeev beat me to this...

    I'm also wondering whether "i=
ntent" and/or "delegation" are useful to the naming:
    + Intent-based
    + Intentional authorization
    +=
 Intentional delegation

    Regards,
    Hankins Pari=
chabutr
    . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
    =



    On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 2:29 PM <txauth-request@ietf.org> wrote:
    Send Txauth mailing list submiss=
ions to
    
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 txauth@ietf.org
    

    
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
    
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://www.ietf.org/mailman=
/listinfo/txauth
    
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
    
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 txauth-request@ietf.org
    

    
You can reach the person managing the list at
    
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 txauth-owner@ietf.org
    

    
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
    
than "Re: Contents of Txauth digest..."
    
Today's Topics:
    

    
=C2=A0 =C2=A01. Re: Name criteria (Amanjeev Sethi)
    
=C2=A0 =C2=A02. Re: Name criteria (Daniel Fett)
    
=C2=A0 =C2=A03. Re: Name criteria (Dick Hardt)
    
=C2=A0 =C2=A04. Re: Name criteria (Justin Richer)
    



    ---------- Forwarded message ----------
    From:=C2=A0Amanjeev =
Sethi <aj@amanjeev.=
com>
    To:=C2=A0Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com>, Daniel Fett <fett@danielfett.de>=

    Cc:=C2=A0txauth@ie=
tf.org
    Bcc:=C2=A0
    Date:=C2=A0Tue, 28 Apr 2020 13:58:00 -0400
    S=
ubject:=C2=A0Re: [Txauth] Name criteria
    Does no one thi=
nk that "intent driven" can be used for creating a name?

    On Tue, Apr 28, 2020, at 1:54 PM, Dick Hardt wrote:
    Daniel: I'm in favor of the intent of your suggestion -- b=
ut curious which languages we would test that in. Doing it for all language=
s is impractical. A negative connotation=C2=A0may also be a locale rather t=
han language specific. For example, a fag in the UK (a cigarette) is very d=
ifferent than a fag in the US/Canada (offensive term for a homosexual man).=

    3D""=E1=90=A7
    <=
br>
    On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 10:09 AM Daniel Fett=
 <fett@danielfet=
t.de> wrote:
    Am 28.04=
.20 um 19:04 schrieb Dick
      Hardt:
    Revised criteria:

    Required:
    <=
/div>
    1. No confusion with another
                protocol, major software project, or IETF/IRTF WG name
      <=
/li>
    2. no existing registered
                trademarks in related classes
    3. Less than 1M results in
                Google
    4. Descriptive o=
f protocol (this
                criteria is subjective)
    Desirable:<=
br>
    1. Straightforward to pronoun=
ce
    2. Easy to spell=C2=A0
    3. Easy to read
    4. Shortish
    5. Not a negativ=
ely connotated word in another language
    -Daniel
    --
     Txauth mailing list
    --=C2=A0
    Txauth mailing list
    Txauth@ietf.org





    ---------- Forward=
ed message ----------
    From:=C2=A0Daniel Fett <fett@danielfett.de>
    To:=C2=A0Dic=
k Hardt <dick.=
hardt@gmail.com>
    Cc:=C2=A0txauth@ietf.org
    Bcc:=C2=A0
    Date:=C2=A0Tue, 28 Apr 2=
020 20:01:26 +0200
    Subject:=C2=A0Re: [Txauth] Name criteria
    
 =20
   =20
 =20
  
    
    
    Am 28.04.20 um 19:54 schrieb Dick
      Hardt:
    
    
    
    
    
     =20
      
    Daniel: I'm in favor of the intent of your
        suggestion -- but curious which languages we would test that in.
        Doing it for all languages is impractical. A negative
        connotation=C2=A0may also be a locale rather than language specific=
.
        For example, a fag in the UK (a cigarette) is very different
        than a fag in the US/Canada (offensive term for a homosexual
        man).
    
    
    
    
    If it is in the Urban Dictionary, it is probably a bad choice ;-)
    
    No, seriously, I guess we can just google for "<x>
      definition", "<x> translation" and see what come=
s up. 
    
    
    
    
    -Daniel
    
    
    
  
    




    ---------- Forwarded message ----------
    From:=C2=A0Dick Hard=
t <dick.hardt@=
gmail.com>
    To:=C2=A0Daniel Fett <fett@danielfett.de>
    Cc:=C2=A0txauth@ietf.org
    Bcc:=
=C2=A0
    Date:=C2=A0Tue, 28 Apr 2020 11:11:30 -0700
    Subject:=C2=A0Re: [=
Txauth] Name criteria
    But which languages are we checki=
ng? There are alot in the world. The phonetics of the name could be offensi=
ve -- ie it could be an offensive word when said in=C2=A0China or Japan. I =
don't know how to use google to search=C2=A0phonetics.=C2=A0
    3D""=E1=90=A7

    On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 11:01 AM Daniel Fett <=
fett@danielfett.de<=
/a>> wrote:
    
 =20
   =20
 =20
  
    
    
    Am 28.04.20 um 19:54 schrieb Dick
      Hardt:
    
    
    
    
    
     =20
      
    Daniel: I'm in favor of the intent of your
        suggestion -- but curious which languages we would test that in.
        Doing it for all languages is impractical. A negative
        connotation=C2=A0may also be a locale rather than language specific=
..
        For example, a fag in the UK (a cigarette) is very different
        than a fag in the US/Canada (offensive term for a homosexual
        man).
    
    
    
    
    If it is in the Urban Dictionary, it is probably a bad choice ;-)
    
    No, seriously, I guess we can just google for "<x>
      definition", "<x> translation" and see what come=
s up. 
    
    
    
    
    -Daniel
    
    
    
  
    


    



    ---------- Forwarded message ----------
    From:=C2=A0Justin Ri=
cher <    jricher@mit.e=
du>
    To:=C2=A0Amanjeev Sethi <aj@amanjeev.com>
    Cc:=C2=A0Dick Hardt <dick.hardt@gmail.com<=
/a>>, Daniel Fett <fett@danielfett.de>, txauth@ietf.org
    Bcc:=C2=A0
    Date:=C2=A0Tue, 28 Apr 202=
0 14:28:48 -0400
    Subject:=C2=A0Re: [Txauth] Name criteria
    I think that both =E2=80=9Cintent driven=E2=
=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cintent registration=E2=80=9D are good starting points, =
as that=E2=80=99s one of several key aspects to this proposed solution spac=
e. The flexibility of the interaction (and non-reliance on web browsers for=
 it) is another important aspect.

    So interactive intent =
of some flavor might be an inspiration.

    =C2=A0=E2=80=
=94 Justin

    On Apr 28, 2020, at 1=
:58 PM, Amanjeev Sethi <aj@amanjeev.com> wrote:

    Does=
 no one think that "intent driven" can be used for creating a nam=
e?

    On Tue, Apr=
 28, 2020, at 1:54 PM, Dick Hardt wrote:
    Dan=
iel: I'm in favor of the intent of your suggestion -- but curious which=
 languages we would test that in. Doing it for all languages is impractical=
. A negative connotation=C2=A0may also be a locale rather than language spe=
cific. For example, a fag in the UK (a cigarette) is very different than a =
fag in the US/Canada (offensive term for a homosexual man).
    3D""=E1=90=A7

    On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 10:09 AM Daniel Fett <fett@danielfett.de> wrote=
:
    Am 28.04.20 um 19:04 schri=
eb Dick Hardt:
    Revised criteria:

    Required:
    <=
/div>
    1. No confusion with another prot=
ocol, major software project, or IETF/IRTF WG name
    2. no existing registered trademarks in related classes
    3. Less than 1M results in Google
    4. Descriptive of protocol (this criteria is subjec=
tive)
    Desirable:
    1. Straightforward to pronounce
    2. Easy to spell=C2=A0
    3. Easy to =
read
    4. Shortish
    5. Not a negatively connotated word in another lan=
guage
    -Daniel
    --
    Txauth mailing l=
ist
    --=C2=A0
    <=
div>Txauth mailing list


    --=
=C2=A0
    Txauth mailing list
    Txauth@ietf.org
    https://w=
ww.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth

    <=
/div>
    Txauth mailing list
    
Txauth@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/txauth
    

    PAuth

    Phased
    Pre-f=
light

    or what comes after OAuth (P comes after O)<=
/div>
    O=
n Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 5:18 PM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:
    Phased Auth =E2=80=94 PhAuth=
.

    =C2=A0=E2=80=94 Justin

    On Apr 22, 2020, at 6:55 PM, Mike Jones <Michael.Jo=
nes=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

    Then perhaps a few=
 accurate and descriptive protocol names that we could consider would be:
    =C2=A0
    =
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 Multi-Step Authorization Protocol (MSAP)
    =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Multi-Phase Authorization Pro=
tocol (MPAP)
    =C2=A0
    =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -- Mike
    =C2=A0=

    F=
rom:=C2=A0Txauth <txau=
th-bounces@ietf.org>=C2=A0On Behalf Of=C2=A0Dick Hardt
    Sent:=C2=A0Wednesday, April 22, =
2020 3:44 PM
    To:=C2=A0Mike Varley <mike.varley@securekey.com>
    Cc:=
=C2=A0txauth@ietf.org
    Subject:=C2=A0Re: [Txauth] alignment on Justin's use of "tra=
nsactional" adjective
    =C2=A0=

    =C2=A0
    =
=C2=A0
    On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 5:55 =
AM Mike Varley <mike.varley@securekey=
.com> wrote:
    ... the intent of the protocol, which to m=
y mind can be summarized as:
    There is a pre-flight setup transaction required by clients to a=
uthorization servers before the OAuth request/response (transaction) proces=
s can begin
    <snip>
    =C2=A0
    This is also what I think it the major change t=
o the protocol.
    =C2=A0
    /Dick
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n/listinfo/txauth