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From: The IESG
To: IETF-Announce
Cc: Internet Architecture Board , RFC Editor , usefor mailing list , usefor chair
Subject: Protocol Action: 'Netnews Architecture and Protocols' to Proposed Standard
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The IESG has approved the following document:

- 'Netnews Architecture and Protocols '
as a Proposed Standard

This document is the product of the Usenet Article Standard Update
Working Group.

The IESG contact persons are Lisa Dusseault and Alexey Melnikov.

A URL of this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-usefor-usepro-14.txt

Technical summary:
This document describes the operational procedures involved
in running the NetNews service, including the roles of all
the components of the service. It establishes terminology and
expectations of behaviour for News servers independent of the
protocol they use to communicate.
This, together with draft-ietf-usefor-usefor, obsoletes RFC
1036.

Working group summary:
The USEFOR working group has been working on this document in
various versions since 1998. This version was split from
the -usefor document in 2004. Progress has been slow, and
contention has erupted over both major and minor matters.
The group is now down to a very small size (~5 people), and
it is not believed that working at this longer will improve
the document significantly.
The WG has consensus that this document is a far better
specification than RFC 1036.

Protocol quality
The specification allows major News implementations to claim
conformance as-is. Some innovations done in the course of the
WG's work have been incorporated into existing News servers.
The editor is himself a News server implementor.

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Subject: WG Action: Conclusion of Usenet Article Standard Update (usefor)
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The Usenet Article Standard Update (usefor) working group in the
Applications Area has concluded.

The IESG contact person is Lisa Dusseault.

The mailing list will remain active.

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Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 18:04:53 -0000
To: "Harald Alvestrand"
Subject: Re: Issue [1586] (was USEPRO document on IESG processing queue)
From: "Charles Lindsey"
Cc: [email-masked]
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On Fri, 13 Mar 2009 15:59:42 -0000, Harald Alvestrand
wrote:

> Charles Lindsey wrote:

>> But this is NOT yet the end of this work, since we still have not
>> resolved
>> Issue 1586.
>>
>> The last contribution on this was from Russ on Feb 1st
>> , the
>> relevant
>> part of which is:
>>
> That's wrong.
>
> The last contribution on this issue number is on February 4, from
> yourself:

True, but that was mainly a +1 to what Russ was suggesting, with little
additional comment.

> Russ and I did not agree with your proposal. Given that only 3 people
> commented at that time, ...

On the contrary, after I had clarified my proposal by showing actual
wording, Russ essentially acepted it, and indeed he improved it (modulo
actual wordsmithing).

--
Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------
Tel: +44 161 436 6131
Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl
Email: [email-masked]      Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K.
PGP: 2C15F1A9      Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5

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Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 16:59:42 +0100
From: Harald Alvestrand
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To: Charles Lindsey
CC: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: Issue [1586] (was USEPRO document on IESG processing queue)
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Charles Lindsey wrote:
> In <[email-masked]> Harald Alvestrand writes:
>
>
>> Lisa has scheduled the USEPRO document for IESG discussion on April 2.
>> Let's hope this is the end of this work.
>>
>
> But this is NOT yet the end of this work, since we still have not resolved
> Issue 1586.
>
> The last contribution on this was from Russ on Feb 1st
> , the relevant
> part of which is:
>
That's wrong.

The last contribution on this issue number is on February 4, from yourself:

> In <[email-masked]> Harald Alvestrand writes:
>
>
>> >Charles Lindsey wrote:
>>
>>> >>
>>> >> NOTE: Whereas the presence of two "POSTED" s will often
>>> >> indicate a malicious attempt to disguise the true origin of an article,
>>> >> it could also arise following some ususual gatewaying or injecting
>>> >> scenario (taking advantage of the "MAY contain" above), in which case
>>> >> it could be useful for detecting unintended loops or mismanaged
>>> >> gateways. The whole intent of these >> >> humans in assessing unusual situations, and it would be unwise for
>>> >> subsequent agents automatically to assume one possibility or the other.
>>> >>
>>>
>
>
>> >I disagree with this idea, and think we should keep the SHOULD NOT.
>>
>
>
>> >Not throwing away information can be accomplished by tricks like
>> >Old-Path:. As the proposed note effectively says, saying that multiple
>> >POSTs are generally acceptable is an invitation to the script kiddies to
>> >play with it.
>>
>
> If the script kiddies try it, they will get caught out because two POSTEDs
> will then be present and any suspicion of trollery will be confirmed.
>
> But in the case of some carefully crafted Gatewaying scheme, or, worse, in
> the case of some broken Gatewaying scheme that ought to be spotted,
> destroying the evidence will do harm. And I doubt people will want to
> bother with Old-Post hacks.
>
> There are plenty of Netkops around who will gleefully denounce the trolls,
> and plenty of experienced newsadmins who will notice indications of broken
> Gatewaying (especially if consistently repeated) and quietly warn those
> causing it.
Russ and I did not agree with your proposal. Given that only 3 people
commented at that time, I saw absolutely no reason to hold up finishing
the USEPRO document while waiting for more people to come on board with
opinions.

rt.psg.com is down today, so I can't verify whether I actually closed
the issue. But I see no need to reopen it.

Harald

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Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 14:02:16 -0700
Message-ID:
Subject: Re: Issue [1586] (was USEPRO document on IESG processing queue)
From: Lisa Dusseault
To: Charles Lindsey
Cc: [email-masked]
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Hi Charles,

USEFOR is done as a WG. I checked this with the chairs, and the
energy to try to make any further improvements or clarifications is
just not there. The issues are sufficiently dealt with. The IESG
reviewed the document and decided it was a sufficient improvement on
the previous RFC to be worth approving. In many ways this is a job
well done despite the slowness of closing bunch of issues.

Thank-you for your efforts in helping us get to this finishing point.
Lisa

On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 4:24 AM, Charles Lindsey wro=
te:
>
> In <[email-masked]> Harald Alvestrand writes:
>
>>Lisa has scheduled the USEPRO document for IESG discussion on April 2.
>>Let's hope this is the end of this work.
>
> But this is NOT yet the end of this work, since we still have not resolve=
d
> Issue 1586.
>
> The last contribution on this was from Russ on Feb 1st
> , the relevant
> part of which is:
>
>>I think our options here are:
>>
>>1. Treat the Path header as special and permit (or even encourage)
>> =A0 retaining it while not permitting retention of the other trace heade=
rs,
>> =A0 on the grounds that it has an intrinsic ordering and therefore isn't=
as
>> =A0 prone to confusion as having multiple trace headers that aren't
>> =A0 ordered.
>>
>>2. Leave the existing wording, which requires multiple injection to remov=
e
>> =A0 or rename the Path header but allows readers to add spurious POSTED
>> =A0 s by violating a SHOULD. =A0I'm not entirely comfortab=
le
>> =A0 with it, but I can't think of any specific protocol harm it could
>> =A0 cause.
>>
>>3. Restore the MUST in the proto-article section to match the MUST in
>> =A0 3.4.2 and make the document consistent but possibly too strict.
>>
>>4. Relax the MUST generally in 3.4.2, but then we will run into issues
>> =A0 with Injection-Info, which the posting agent is not permitted to sup=
ply
>> =A0 and which doesn't have an intrinsic ordering the way that the Path
>> =A0 header does.
>>
>>The more I think about it, the more option 1 seems like a workable idea,
>>but I think that's reversing some decisions that we made some time back.
>>That makes me nervous at this stage of the process.
>
> I replied to that agreeing that option 1 was the best way to proceed, so
> that leaves Russ and myself in agreement.
>
> The only other view expressed was yourself a couple of days before that
> expressing some doubt concerning the possible advantage "script kiddies"
> might take if we permitted multiple "POSTED"s to remain in Paths. I am of
> the view that there are pros and cons to that approach, but am of the
> opinion that on balance it is better to allow them.
>
> I would be willing to provide detailed wording suggestions, but would
> prefer that we reach agreement in principle first that option 1 is the wa=
y
> we want to go.
>
> BTW, it seemed that Russ had comitted changes prior to publishing a
> further draft, but I have seen no sign of such a draft - an in particular
> no notice of it has appeared here.
>
> --
> Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------=
------
> Tel: +44 161 436 6131 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk=
/~chl
> Email: [email-masked] =A0 =A0 =A0Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, S=
K8 3JU, U.K.
> PGP: 2C15F1A9 =A0 =A0 =A0Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E=
14 A4 AB A5

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To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: Issue [1586]
In-Reply-To: (Charles Lindsey's message of "Thu\, 12 Mar 2009 11\:24\:42 GMT")
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References: <[email-masked]>
From: Russ Allbery
Organization: The Eyrie
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 12:48:43 -0700
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"Charles Lindsey" writes:

> BTW, it seemed that Russ had comitted changes prior to publishing a
> further draft, but I have seen no sign of such a draft - an in
> particular no notice of it has appeared here.

http://www.imc.org/ietf-usefor/mail-archive/msg04543.html

I'm not sure why you wouldn't have received it. (There were no changes
related to #1586 in it relative to -13.)

--
Russ Allbery ([email-masked])

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From: "Charles Lindsey"
Subject: Issue [1586] (was USEPRO document on IESG processing queue)
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In <[email-masked]> Harald Alvestrand writes:

>Lisa has scheduled the USEPRO document for IESG discussion on April 2.
>Let's hope this is the end of this work.

But this is NOT yet the end of this work, since we still have not resolved
Issue 1586.

The last contribution on this was from Russ on Feb 1st
, the relevant
part of which is:

>I think our options here are:
>
>1. Treat the Path header as special and permit (or even encourage)
> retaining it while not permitting retention of the other trace headers,
> on the grounds that it has an intrinsic ordering and therefore isn't as
> prone to confusion as having multiple trace headers that aren't
> ordered.
>
>2. Leave the existing wording, which requires multiple injection to remove
> or rename the Path header but allows readers to add spurious POSTED
> s by violating a SHOULD. I'm not entirely comfortable
> with it, but I can't think of any specific protocol harm it could
> cause.
>
>3. Restore the MUST in the proto-article section to match the MUST in
> 3.4.2 and make the document consistent but possibly too strict.
>
>4. Relax the MUST generally in 3.4.2, but then we will run into issues
> with Injection-Info, which the posting agent is not permitted to supply
> and which doesn't have an intrinsic ordering the way that the Path
> header does.
>
>The more I think about it, the more option 1 seems like a workable idea,
>but I think that's reversing some decisions that we made some time back.
>That makes me nervous at this stage of the process.

I replied to that agreeing that option 1 was the best way to proceed, so
that leaves Russ and myself in agreement.

The only other view expressed was yourself a couple of days before that
expressing some doubt concerning the possible advantage "script kiddies"
might take if we permitted multiple "POSTED"s to remain in Paths. I am of
the view that there are pros and cons to that approach, but am of the
opinion that on balance it is better to allow them.

I would be willing to provide detailed wording suggestions, but would
prefer that we reach agreement in principle first that option 1 is the way
we want to go.

BTW, it seemed that Russ had comitted changes prior to publishing a
further draft, but I have seen no sign of such a draft - an in particular
no notice of it has appeared here.

--
Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------
Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl
Email: [email-masked] Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K.
PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5

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Subject: Re: USEPRO document on IESG processing queue
From: Lisa Dusseault
To: Harald Alvestrand
Cc: Usenet
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Actually, it's on the IESG's agenda for tomorrow!

Lisa

On Wed, Mar 11, 2009 at 5:00 AM, Harald Alvestrand w=
rote:
>
> Lisa has scheduled the USEPRO document for IESG discussion on April 2.
> Let's hope this is the end of this work.
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Harald Alvestrand
>
>

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Lisa has scheduled the USEPRO document for IESG discussion on April 2.
Let's hope this is the end of this work.

Harald Alvestrand

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--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Usenet Article Standard Update Working Group of the IETF.

Title : Netnews Architecture and Protocols
Author(s) : R. Allbery, C. Lindsey
Filename : draft-ietf-usefor-usepro-14.txt
Pages : 54
Date : 2009-03-03

This document defines the architecture of Netnews systems and
specifies the correct manipulation and interpretation of Netnews
articles by software which originates, distributes, stores, and
displays them. It also specifies the requirements that must be met
by any protocol used to transport and serve Netnews articles.Internet
Draft Comments

Comments are solicited and should be addressed to the Usenet Format
Working Group at [email-masked].

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-usefor-usepro-14.txt

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

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implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the
Internet-Draft.

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Date: Tuesday, March 3, 2009 @ 12:22:52
Author: eagle
Revision: 5777

Update the legal boilerplate.

Modified:
docs/usefor/usepro.xml

Modified: docs/usefor/usepro.xml
===================================================================
--- docs/usefor/usepro.xml 2009-03-03 20:15:39 UTC (rev 5776)
+++ docs/usefor/usepro.xml 2009-03-03 20:22:52 UTC (rev 5777)
@@ -28,7 +28,7 @@
'http://xml.resource.org/public/rfc/bibxml/reference.RFC.5234.xml'>
]>

-

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Date: Tuesday, March 3, 2009 @ 12:14:49
Author: eagle
Revision: 5775

Make draft-ietf-usefor-usepro-14.

Modified:
docs/usefor/Makefile
docs/usefor/usepro.xml

Modified: docs/usefor/Makefile
===================================================================
--- docs/usefor/Makefile 2009-03-03 04:00:37 UTC (rev 5774)
+++ docs/usefor/Makefile 2009-03-03 20:14:49 UTC (rev 5775)
@@ -1,7 +1,7 @@
# Generate new text and HTML versions of the USEPRO document and copy them
# somewhere reasonable on my web site.

-DRAFT = draft-ietf-usefor-usepro-13
+DRAFT = draft-ietf-usefor-usepro-14
WEB = /home/eagle/web/eagle/usefor/drafts

all: text html

Modified: docs/usefor/usepro.xml
===================================================================
--- docs/usefor/usepro.xml 2009-03-03 04:00:37 UTC (rev 5774)
+++ docs/usefor/usepro.xml 2009-03-03 20:14:49 UTC (rev 5775)
@@ -28,7 +28,7 @@
'http://xml.resource.org/public/rfc/bibxml/reference.RFC.5234.xml'>
]>

-

Netnews Architecture and Protocols

@@ -64,7 +64,7 @@

-
+

Applications
Usenet Format Working Group

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Hi,

>> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="nxtprt"; charset=us-ascii
>
> As near as I can tell from RFC 2046, charset is not a valid parameter for
> multipart/* content types. It's only supposed to go on the final
> constituent parts. Among other things, this avoids...

I also see that RFC 2046 only accepts US-ASCII for the preamble of
a MIME message (I thought a charset for multipart/mixed would be useful
for it, but it is in fact useless):

preamble := discard-text
discard-text := *(*text CRLF) *text
text =
CHAR = ; ( 0-177, 0.-127.)

It is therefore impossible to write "This is a MIME control message."
in Chinese.

Control: newgroup example.admin.info moderated
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="nxtprt"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

This is a MIME control message.
--nxtprt

The parts are defined as:

body-part := MIME-part-headers [CRLF *OCTET]
OCTET :=

That's fine.

--
Julien ÉLIE

« -- Il l'aura voulu.
-- Tu crois vraiment ? » (Astérix)

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Hi Russ,

>> wouldn't it be better to put the charsets in order to highlight the
>> fact they are useful (though it is said the default is US-ASCII)?
>
> Yeah, probably a good idea. I'll make that change.

Thanks for your commit.

>> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="nxtprt"; charset=us-ascii
>
> As near as I can tell from RFC 2046, charset is not a valid parameter for
> multipart/* content types. It's only supposed to go on the final
> constituent parts. Among other things, this avoids...
>
>> In our case, the most important is the second one. Incidentally,
>> I wonder what happens when the first one is defined to utf-8 and
>> the second one is undefined. Is it utf-8 (out of transitivity)
>> or us-ascii?
>
> ...that problem. :)

All right! Thanks!

--
Julien ÉLIE

« There's a way of transferring funds that is even faster
than electronic banking. It's called marriage. » (Sam Kinison)

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Date: Sunday, March 1, 2009 @ 18:32:11
Author: eagle
Revision: 5767

Add explicit charset attributes to the newgroup example to remind
readers to think about them.

Modified:
docs/usefor/usepro.xml

Modified: docs/usefor/usepro.xml
===================================================================
--- docs/usefor/usepro.xml 2009-03-02 02:28:39 UTC (rev 5766)
+++ docs/usefor/usepro.xml 2009-03-02 02:32:11 UTC (rev 5767)
@@ -1884,13 +1884,13 @@

This is a MIME control message.
--nxtprt
- Content-Type: application/news-groupinfo
+ Content-Type: application/news-groupinfo; charset=us-ascii

For your newsgroups file:
example.admin.info About the example.* groups (Moderated)

--nxtprt
- Content-Type: text/plain
+ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

A moderated newsgroup for announcements about new newsgroups in
the example.* hierarchy.

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From: [email-masked]
Subject: Commit in docs/usefor (usepro.xml)
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Date: Sunday, March 1, 2009 @ 18:28:39
Author: eagle
Revision: 5766

Clarify handling of and change the example to use YYYYMMDDNN.
Suggest string comparisons for potentially long serial numbers.

Modified:
docs/usefor/usepro.xml

Modified: docs/usefor/usepro.xml
===================================================================
--- docs/usefor/usepro.xml 2009-03-01 22:43:59 UTC (rev 5765)
+++ docs/usefor/usepro.xml 2009-03-02 02:28:39 UTC (rev 5766)
@@ -1962,19 +1962,28 @@
or sub-hierarchy with a smaller <chksernr> value or with no
<chksernr> value.

+ There is no upper limit on the length of <chksernr>
+ other than the limitation on the length of header fields.
+ Implementations may therefore want to do comparisons by
+ zero-padding the shorter of two <chksernr> values on the
+ left and then doing a string comparison rather than assuming
+ <chksernr> can be manipulated as a number.
+

For example, the following Control header
field

- Control: checkgroups de !de.alt #248
+ Control: checkgroups de !de.alt #2009021301

indicates the body of the message will list every
newsgroup in the de.* hierarchy, excepting the de.alt.*
sub-hierarchy, and should not be honored if a checkgroups
- control message with a serial number greater than 248 was
- previously honored.
+ control message with a serial number greater than 2009021301
+ was previously honored. The serial number in this example
+ was formed from the date in YYYYMMDD format followed by a
+ two-digit sequence number within that date.

The body of the message is an entity of type

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To: "Usefor WG"
Subject: Re: Charset in newgroup sample
In-Reply-To: ("Julien =?iso-8859-1?Q?=C9LIE=22's?= message of "Sun\, 1 Mar 2009 23\:54\:08 +0100")
User-Agent: Gnus/5.11 (Gnus v5.11) Emacs/22.2 (gnu/linux)
References:
From: Russ Allbery
Organization: The Eyrie
Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2009 18:27:20 -0800
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Julien =C9LIE writes:

> In the sample of newgroup control message:
>
> Control: newgroup example.admin.info moderated
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=3D"nxtprt"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>
> This is a MIME control message.
> --nxtprt
> Content-Type: application/news-groupinfo
>
> For your newsgroups file:
> example.admin.info About the example.* groups (Moderated)
>
> --nxtprt
> Content-Type: text/plain
>
> A moderated newsgroup for announcements about new newsgroups in
> the example.* hierarchy.
>
> --nxtprt--
>
> wouldn't it be better to put the charsets in order to highlight the
> fact they are useful (though it is said the default is US-ASCII)?

Yeah, probably a good idea. I'll make that change.

> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=3D"nxtprt"; charset=3Dus-asc=
ii

As near as I can tell from RFC 2046, charset is not a valid parameter for
multipart/* content types. It's only supposed to go on the final
constituent parts. Among other things, this avoids...

> In our case, the most important is the second one. Incidentally,
> I wonder what happens when the first one is defined to utf-8 and
> the second one is undefined. Is it utf-8 (out of transitivity)
> or us-ascii?

...that problem. :)

--=20
Russ Allbery ([email-masked])

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From: =?iso-8859-15?Q?Julien_=C9LIE?=
To: "Usefor WG"
Subject: Charset in newgroup sample
Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 23:54:08 +0100
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Hi,

In the sample of newgroup control message:

Control: newgroup example.admin.info moderated
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="nxtprt"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

This is a MIME control message.
--nxtprt
Content-Type: application/news-groupinfo

For your newsgroups file:
example.admin.info About the example.* groups (Moderated)

--nxtprt
Content-Type: text/plain

A moderated newsgroup for announcements about new newsgroups in
the example.* hierarchy.

--nxtprt--

wouldn't it be better to put the charsets in order to highlight the
fact they are useful (though it is said the default is US-ASCII)?
I fear people might still forget it...

Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="nxtprt"; charset=us-ascii
Content-Type: application/news-groupinfo; charset=us-ascii
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

or another one if you want (iso-8858-1 and utf-8 are also fine for instance
but RFC 2046 states it SHOULD be the lowest common denominator us-ascii,
enough for that sample).

Why mention the charset? RFC 2046 also states:

In order to eliminate such ambiguity and variations in the
future, it is strongly recommended that new user agents explicitly
specify a character set as a media type parameter in the Content-Type
header field.

In our case, the most important is the second one. Incidentally,
I wonder what happens when the first one is defined to utf-8 and
the second one is undefined. Is it utf-8 (out of transitivity)
or us-ascii?

--
Julien ÉLIE

« Plus un ordinateur possède de RAM, plus vite il peut générer un message d'erreur. »