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Subject: Re: Empty description for moderated newsgroups
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Hi Harald,

> newsgroups-line = newsgroup-name
> [ 1*HTAB newsgroup-description ]
> [ *WSP moderation-flag ]

By the way, hopefully nobody is currently sending checkgroups with
SP instead of HTAB...

SP was allowed by Son-of-1036.

In April 2009, us.* checkgroups were using spaces. It was not a long
time ago...
Peter J Ross noticed that:
http://groups.google.fr/group/us.config/browse_frm/thread/7a889db82a65a9bd

(Note there were no INN bugs -- see messages #2 and confirmation in #3.)

--
Julien ÉLIE

« Audentes fortunat iuvat. » (Virgile)

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Subject: Re: Empty description for moderated newsgroups
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 20:50:23 +0100
Organization: TrigoFACILE -- http://www.trigofacile.com/
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Hi Harald,

>> fr.test
>> fr.test.y\tA description.
>> fr.test.m\tA description. (Moderated)
>> fr.test.m.without.desc (Moderated)
>>
>> I do not believe the last one is valid. And even though USEPRO states
>> that "this unusual format is backward-compatible", I think the last one
>> will be considered as an unmoderated newsgroup whose description is
>> "(Moderated)".
>
> Which software currently acts as if the last one is non-moderated?

At least INN currently does.

Example:

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
pouet.test\tTest. (Moderated)
pouet.test2 (Moderated)
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

If I feed it to controlchan (the program INN uses for checkgroups received
from peers), I receive:

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
# The following newsgroups are missing and should be added:
#
# pouet.test
# pouet.test2
#
# You can add them by executing the command(s):

/home/news/bin/ctlinnd newgroup pouet.test2 y
/home/news/bin/ctlinnd newgroup pouet.test m

# The following newsgroups descriptions are missing and should be added:
#
# pouet.test2\t(Moderated)
# pouet.test\tTest. (Moderated)
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Note the tabulations in the descriptions found.

> I can see multiple ways to write a parser for this syntax; some of them will have this problem, other won't.
> (for instance, if the check for "(Moderated)" is done independently of attempting to extract the description, there will not be a
> problem)

Yes, I understand. It is possible to fix it in software.
INN just splits with:
my ($ngname, $ngdesc) = split(/\s+/, $_, 2);
before checking for " (Moderated)".

Note that USEPRO explicitly mentions " (Moderated)" with a *leading* space.

> If it's a real problem, we should be able to cite which existing software has it.

The main problem is that RFC 3977 specifies that the format of LIST
NEWSGROUPS follows that rule:

The newsgroups list is maintained by NNTP servers to contain the name
of each newsgroup that is available on the server and a short
description about the purpose of the group. Each line of this list
consists of two fields separated from each other by one or more space
or TAB characters (the usual practice is a single TAB). The first
field is the name of the newsgroup, and the second is a short
description of the group.

; newsgroups
list-content =/ list-newsgroups-content
list-newsgroups-content =
*(newsgroup-name WS newsgroup-description CRLF)
newsgroup-description = S-TEXT

WS = 1*(SP / TAB)
S-TEXT = U-TEXT
U-TEXT = P-CHAR *U-CHAR
P-CHAR = A-CHAR / UTF8-non-ascii
A-CHAR = %x21-7E
U-CHAR = CTRL / TAB / SP / A-CHAR / UTF8-non-ascii

Leading spaces are only separators. Therefore, the description
is "(Moderated)". Not " (Moderated)".
Here, USEPRO adds a requirement to parse differently such lines.

A checkgroups was not supposed to have a different format than
the newsgroups file...

Also have a look at Son-of-1036:

checkgroups-body = [ invalidation ] valid-groups
/ invalidation
invalidation = "!" plain-component *( "," plain-component ) eol
valid-groups = 1*( description-line eol )
description-line = newsgroup-name space description
description = nonblank-text [ " (Moderated)" ]

In fact, it looks as though newsgroups were required to
have a description.
It is no longer the case with USEPRO:

newsgroups-line = newsgroup-name
[ 1*HTAB newsgroup-description ]
[ *WSP moderation-flag ]

Note that I'm fine with that. I just wanted to warn that
it may cause problems with existing software.
Parsing is different and, when writing the newsgroups file,
it requires to add "No description.", as it is for instance
done on :
ab.arnet\tNo description. (Moderated)

Not easy for implementors not to walk into the trap!

As far as I am concerned, I will try to cope with that it
in the next release of INN.

--
Julien ÉLIE

« Audentes fortunat iuvat. » (Virgile)

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From: Harald Alvestrand
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To: =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Julien_=C9LIE?=
CC: Usefor WG
Subject: Re: Empty description for moderated newsgroups
References:
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Julien =C9LIE wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> In USEPRO, we have:
>
> 4.2. application/news-groupinfo
>
> newsgroups-line =3D newsgroup-name
> [ 1*HTAB newsgroup-description ]
> [ *WSP moderation-flag ]
> newsgroup-description
> =3D eightbit-utext *( *WSP eightbit-utext )
> moderation-flag =3D SP "(" %x4D.6F.64.65.72.61.74.65.64 ")"
> ; SPACE + case sensitive "(Moderated)"
> eightbit-utext =3D utext / %d127-255
>
>
> So we can have checkgroups (or newgroup control articles) with:
>
> fr.test
> fr.test.y\tA description.
> fr.test.m\tA description. (Moderated)
> fr.test.m.without.desc (Moderated)
>
> I do not believe the last one is valid. And even though USEPRO states
> that "this unusual format is backward-compatible", I think the last one=

> will be considered as an unmoderated newsgroup whose description is
> "(Moderated)".
Which software currently acts as if the last one is non-moderated?

I can see multiple ways to write a parser for this syntax; some of them=20
will have this problem, other won't.
(for instance, if the check for "(Moderated)" is done independently of=20
attempting to extract the description, there will not be a problem)

If it's a real problem, we should be able to cite which existing=20
software has it.
>
> Isn't it a problem? Empty descriptions are explicitly allowed by the
> syntax. But when a newsgroup is moderated, I do not see well how
> to handle empty descriptions in a backward-compatible way, except
> if a description is mandatory in that case.
>
>
> Incidentally:
>
> 3.10.3. Original-Sender Header Field
>
> The content syntax makes use of syntax defined in [RFC5536]
> and [RFC5322].
>
> header =3D/ Original-Sender-header
> Original-Sender-header
> =3D "Original-Sender" ":" SP
> Original-Sender-content
> Original-Sender-content
> =3D mailbox
>
>
> But shouldn't it be, with USEFOR [RFC5536] syntax:
>
> fields =3D/ *Original-Sender-header
> Original-Sender-header
> =3D "Original-Sender" ":" SP
> Original-Sender-content CRLF
> Original-Sender-content
> =3D mailbox
>

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Subject: RFC 5537 on Netnews Architecture and Protocols
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A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries.

RFC 5537

Title: Netnews Architecture and Protocols
Author: R. Allbery, Ed.,
C. Lindsey
Status: Standards Track
Date: November 2009
Mailbox: [email-masked],
[email-masked]
Pages: 48
Characters: 120366
Obsoletes: RFC1036

I-D Tag: draft-ietf-usefor-usepro-14.txt

URL: http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc5537.txt

This document defines the architecture of Netnews systems and
specifies the correct manipulation and interpretation of Netnews
articles by software that originates, distributes, stores, and
displays them. It also specifies the requirements that must be met
by any protocol used to transport and serve Netnews articles.
[STANDARDS TRACK]

This document is a product of the Usenet Article Standard Update Working Group of the IETF.

This is now a Proposed Standard Protocol.

STANDARDS TRACK: This document specifies an Internet standards track
protocol for the Internet community,and requests discussion and suggestions
for improvements. Please refer to the current edition of the Internet
Official Protocol Standards (STD 1) for the standardization state and
status of this protocol. Distribution of this memo is unlimited.

This announcement is sent to the IETF-Announce and rfc-dist lists.
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Subject: RFC 5536 on Netnews Article Format
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A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries.

RFC 5536

Title: Netnews Article Format
Author: K. Murchison, Ed.,
C. Lindsey, D. Kohn
Status: Standards Track
Date: November 2009
Mailbox: [email-masked],
[email-masked],
[email-masked]
Pages: 36
Characters: 71817
Obsoletes: RFC1036

I-D Tag: draft-ietf-usefor-usefor-12.txt

URL: http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc5536.txt

This document specifies the syntax of Netnews articles in the context
of the Internet Message Format (RFC 5322) and Multipurpose Internet
Mail Extensions (MIME) (RFC 2045). This document obsoletes RFC 1036,
providing an updated specification to reflect current practice and
incorporating incremental changes specified in other documents.
[STANDARDS TRACK]

This document is a product of the Usenet Article Standard Update Working Group of the IETF.

This is now a Proposed Standard Protocol.

STANDARDS TRACK: This document specifies an Internet standards track
protocol for the Internet community,and requests discussion and suggestions
for improvements. Please refer to the current edition of the Internet
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From: =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Julien_=C9LIE?=
To: "Usefor WG"
Subject: Empty description for moderated newsgroups
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 22:36:04 +0100
Organization: TrigoFACILE -- http://www.trigofacile.com/
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Hi,

In USEPRO, we have:

4.2. application/news-groupinfo

newsgroups-line = newsgroup-name
[ 1*HTAB newsgroup-description ]
[ *WSP moderation-flag ]
newsgroup-description
= eightbit-utext *( *WSP eightbit-utext )
moderation-flag = SP "(" %x4D.6F.64.65.72.61.74.65.64 ")"
; SPACE + case sensitive "(Moderated)"
eightbit-utext = utext / %d127-255

So we can have checkgroups (or newgroup control articles) with:

fr.test
fr.test.y\tA description.
fr.test.m\tA description. (Moderated)
fr.test.m.without.desc (Moderated)

I do not believe the last one is valid. And even though USEPRO states
that "this unusual format is backward-compatible", I think the last one
will be considered as an unmoderated newsgroup whose description is
"(Moderated)".

Isn't it a problem? Empty descriptions are explicitly allowed by the
syntax. But when a newsgroup is moderated, I do not see well how
to handle empty descriptions in a backward-compatible way, except
if a description is mandatory in that case.

Incidentally:

3.10.3. Original-Sender Header Field

The content syntax makes use of syntax defined in [RFC5536]
and [RFC5322].

header =/ Original-Sender-header
Original-Sender-header
= "Original-Sender" ":" SP
Original-Sender-content
Original-Sender-content
= mailbox

But shouldn't it be, with USEFOR [RFC5536] syntax:

fields =/ *Original-Sender-header
Original-Sender-header
= "Original-Sender" ":" SP
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--
Julien ÉLIE

« -- Vous ramassez des champignons sans les connaître ?
-- Et alors ? Ce n'est pas pour les manger mais pour les vendre. »

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Does anyone know how to contact Frank Ellermann?

It seems that the RFC-Editor has been unable to contact him by email
regarding the AUTH48 of RFC 5538 (the News/Nntp URI). He has vanished from
this List, on which he used to be a prolific contributor, and his Blog has
not been updated since August 2008.

--
Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------
Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl
Email: [email-masked] Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K.
PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5

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Hi Harald,

> Reality check: How many newsgroups currently exist that have names longer than 64 characters?

Well, not many...
I believe only microsoft.* and novell.* are impacted.
And of course alt.* and free.*.

So maybe it is worthless worrying about that. Though I still think
something should be said somewhere... USEAGE for instance, at least
for people to know they should not create such newsgroups. If they
become moderated, it would be a problem.

microsoft.public.microsoft.transaction.server.administration.security
microsoft.public.windows.inetexplorer.ie55.outlookexpress.stationery
microsoft.public.windows.inetexplorer.ie6.outlookexpress.wishlist
microsoft.public.windows.inetexplorer.ie6_outlookexpress.stationery
microsoft.public.windows.vista.administration_accounts_passwords

novell.support.open-enterprise-server.netware.administration-tools
novell.support.zenworks.configuration-management.10.agent-deployment
novell.support.zenworks.configuration-management.10.asset-management
novell.support.zenworks.configuration-management.10.patch-management
novell.support.zenworks.configuration-management.10.remote-management
novell.support.zenworks.configuration-management.10.server-install
novell.support.zenworks.desktop-management.7x.imaging-server.linux
novell.support.zenworks.desktop-management.7x.imaging-server.nw-win

+ crap in alt.* and free.*

--
Julien ÉLIE

« Pour défendre une cause, un avocat met sa robe. Une femme... l'enlève. »

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Julien ÉLIE wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> Section 7.2 of USEAGE mentions that a newsgroup name is limited to 66
> characters.
> Section 3 of RFC 3696 mentions that the local part of an e-mail
> address is limited
> to 64 characters.
RFC 3696 has status "informational".

RFC 2822 states:

4.5.3.1 Size limits and minimums

There are several objects that have required minimum/maximum sizes.
Every implementation MUST be able to receive objects of at least
these sizes. Objects larger than these sizes SHOULD be avoided when
possible. However, some Internet mail constructs such as encoded
X.400 addresses [16] will often require larger objects: clients MAY
attempt to transmit these, but MUST be prepared for a server to
reject them if they cannot be handled by it. To the maximum extent
possible, implementation techniques which impose no limits on the
length of these objects should be used.

local-part
The maximum total length of a user name or other local-part is 64
characters.

(fwiw, the maximum length of an X.400 O/R address was on the order of a
kilobyte)

>
> Yet, section 3.5.1 of USEPRO has this note:
>
> 3.5.1. Forwarding Messages to a Moderator
>
> NOTE: Deriving the email address of the moderator of a group is
> outside
> the scope of this document. It is worth mentioning, however, that
> a common
> method is to use a forwarding service that handles submissions for
> many
> moderated groups. For maximum compatibility with existing news
> servers,
> such forwarding services generally form the submission address for
> a moderated group by replacing each "." in the
> with "-"
> and then using that value as the of a formed
> by appending a set domain.
>
>
> Shouldn't a warning be put here? Because the compatibility is not
> optimum
> with mailers when a moderated newsgroup contains 65 or 66 characters.
Reality check: How many newsgroups currently exist that have names
longer than 64 characters?
>
> Or will it be handled by USEAGE?
>
The editing of USEPRO is finished for this generation, so USEAGE is the
least unlikely alternative.

Harald

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Hi,

Section 7.2 of USEAGE mentions that a newsgroup name is limited to 66 characters.
Section 3 of RFC 3696 mentions that the local part of an e-mail address is limited
to 64 characters.

Yet, section 3.5.1 of USEPRO has this note:

3.5.1. Forwarding Messages to a Moderator

NOTE: Deriving the email address of the moderator of a group is outside
the scope of this document. It is worth mentioning, however, that a common
method is to use a forwarding service that handles submissions for many
moderated groups. For maximum compatibility with existing news servers,
such forwarding services generally form the submission address for
a moderated group by replacing each "." in the with "-"
and then using that value as the of a formed
by appending a set domain.

Shouldn't a warning be put here? Because the compatibility is not optimum
with mailers when a moderated newsgroup contains 65 or 66 characters.

Or will it be handled by USEAGE?

--
Julien ÉLIE

« -- Il est parti comme il est venu...
-- Il ne faisait que passer... » (Astérix)

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Hi Charles,

> Once it has been published, together with RFC 5537, we need to give some
> thought as to how to publicize it to the Usenet community. Presumably by
> posting some announcement to the relevant news.admin.* groups. Particular
> suggestions anyone?

Also on the relevant news.software.* groups and other (non-English) newsgroups
dealing with Usenet software (in fr.*, de.*, es.*, etc.).

Maybe implementing RFC 5536 and 5537 may help to publicize them. Because
people may notice "unusual" things like ".POSTED", Injection-Date, Archive,
checkgroups serials, etc. and wonder what they are.

--
Julien ÉLIE

« You say that love is nonsense... I tell you it is no such thing.
For weeks and months it is a steady physical pain, an ache about the heart,
never leaving one, by night or by day; a long strain on one's
nerves like toothache or rheumatism, not intolerable at any one instant,
but exhausting by its steady drain on the strength. » (Henry Adams)

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From: "Charles Lindsey"
Subject: Re: Lines count in USEFOR
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In <[email-masked]> Harald Alvestrand writes:

>My memory says that we had an extensive discussion before we landed on
>the idea that the line count == the number of CRLFs in the Body.

>1) It's unambiguously correct for bodies that end with CRLF and with no
>bare CRLF
>2) It's clear how to count for bodies that contain bare CR or bare LF
>3) It's compatible with at least some existing code for bodies that
>don't end in CRLF

>I suggest we leave this one alone.

Agreed. I have no huge urge to change it. The only possible change wouold
be to decree that, contrary to RFC 5322, the final line of the MUST
be terminated with a CRLF. That indeed seems to be the universal current
practice.

Interestingly, the UNIX wc command returns does not regard a final
unterminated line as countable (and Cnews at least uses wc).

--
Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------
Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl
Email: [email-masked] Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K.
PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5

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From: "Charles Lindsey"
Subject: RFC 5536 almost there
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The changes to the Message-ID, and other matters related to RFC 5322 and a
few nit fixes are now incorported. If anyone wants a final quick look for
further nits, have a look at
http://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc5536-diff.html.

Once it has been published, together with RFC 5537, we need to give some
thought as to how to publicize it to the Usenet community. Presumably by
posting some announcement to the relevant news.admin.* groups. Particular
suggestions anyone?

--
Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------
Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl
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From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Julien_=C9LIE?=
To: "Usefor WG" ,
Subject: Additions to LIST commands
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 20:12:27 +0100
Organization: TrigoFACILE -- http://www.trigofacile.com/
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Hi,

I have just posted the following proposal for:

* LIST DISTRIBUTIONS
* LIST MODERATORS
* LIST MOTD
* LIST SUBSCRIPTIONS
* new status for newsgroups returned by LIST ACTIVE

Comments are welcome!

Especially on:

* how to advertise the meaning of new status;
* how to write an extension of RFC 3977 without defining
a new capability;
* how to deal with the fact that RFC 3696 limits the local part
of an e-mail address to 64 characters whereas USEAGE mentions
that a newsgroup name is limited to 66 characters (therefore,
what for the submission address of a moderated newsgroup whose
length is 66 characters?).

Follow up on either the NNTP mailing-list or the USEFOR mailing-list,
depending on the subject you want to tackle.

> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
> directories.
>
>
> Title : Network News Transfer Protocol (NNTP) Additions to LIST Command
> Author(s) : J. Elie
> Filename : draft-elie-nntp-list-additions-00.txt
> Pages : 21
> Date : 2009-11-17
>
> This document defines a set of enhancements to the Network News
> Transfer Protocol (NNTP) that allows a client to request extended
> information maintained by NNTP servers as for local use and
> distribution policy. These enhancements are made as new keywords to
> the existing LIST capability described in RFC 3977.
>
> This memo updates and formalizes the LIST DISTRIBUTIONS and LIST
> SUBSCRIPTIONS commands defined in RFC 2980. It also adds the LIST
> MODERATORS and LIST MOTD commands, and specifies additional values
> returned by the existing LIST ACTIVE command for the status of a
> newsgroup.
>
>
> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-elie-nntp-list-additions-00.txt

--
Julien ÉLIE

« Un seul être vous manque et tout est dépeuplé. » (Alphonse de Lamartine)

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To: =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Julien_=C9LIE?=
CC: Usefor WG
Subject: Re: Lines count in USEFOR
References: <29D0A5366F1E425DA8DA1F9976431D49@Iulius>
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My memory says that we had an extensive discussion before we landed on=20
the idea that the line count =3D=3D the number of CRLFs in the Body.

1) It's unambiguously correct for bodies that end with CRLF and with no=20
bare CRLF
2) It's clear how to count for bodies that contain bare CR or bare LF
3) It's compatible with at least some existing code for bodies that=20
don't end in CRLF

I suggest we leave this one alone.

Julien =C9LIE wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> According to USEFOR:
>
>
> 3.3.1. Lines
>
> The Lines header field indicates the number of lines in the
> (as defined in [RFC5322]) of the article.
>
> lines =3D "Lines:" SP *WSP 1*DIGIT *WSP CRLF
>
> The line count is the number of CRLF separators in the .
>
> Historically, this header field was used by the NNTP [RFC3977]
> overview facility, but its use for this purpose is now deprecated.
> As a result, this header field is to be regarded as obsolescent, and
> it is likely to be removed entirely in a future version of this
> standard. All agents SHOULD ignore it and SHOULD NOT generate it.
>
>
>
> If I read RFC 5322:
>
> body =3D (*(*998text CRLF) *998text) / obs-body
>
> Isn't the final *998text counting for a line?
> I believe the line count is the number of CRLF separators in the =

> PLUS ONE.
> (Unless I'm mistaken by the definition of the body?)
>
>
> The second part of the paragraph seems unclear. I am under the
> impression that RFC 3977 says we can use Lines: in the overview
> but USEFOR -- posterior to RFC 3977 -- deprecates that use.
> This header field is not used by OVER in RFC 3977.
>
> Maybe the reference to RFC 3977 should just be removed in the
> paragraph. Thus leaving NNTP in general.
>

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Hi Charles,

>>> If I read RFC 5322:
>
>>> body = (*(*998text CRLF) *998text) / obs-body
>
>>> Isn't the final *998text counting for a line?
>>> I believe the line count is the number of CRLF separators in the
>>> PLUS ONE.
>>> (Unless I'm mistaken by the definition of the body?)
>
>>NNTP as presently written cannot transfer an article that does not end in
>>a CRLF. In practice, clients will just add a CRLF to any article that
>>doesn't already end in one, since otherwise they can't POST.
>
> Then I suspect USEFOR ought to have said that the CRLF at the end was
> REQUIRED.

It is REQUIRED if you use NNTP commands defined in RFC 3977 and 4644
(for streaming). One cannot post or transmit an article without a final
CRLF; one sees a final CRLF when it retrieves the body.

But if NNTP extensions defines others commands (like the possibility to
send a gzipped article, and to also retrieve it gzipped, it may not be
necessary to have a final CRLF -- though if transmitted or retrieved
with usual NNTP commands, a final CRLF will need to be added...).

> And what if you send it by UUCP?

I have just tested a batch processed by rnews (indicating the size in bytes
of the article to process):

a) #! rnews 2129
b) #! rnews 2127

The result is that a final CRLF is always *added by the posting agent*.

a) ARTICLE
end of article
.

b) ARTICLE
end of artic
.

--
Julien ÉLIE

« Nemo auditur turpitudinem allegans. »

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From: "Charles Lindsey"
Subject: Re: Lines count in USEFOR
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In <[email-masked]> Russ Allbery writes:

>Julien Ã‰LIE writes:

>> If I read RFC 5322:

>> body = (*(*998text CRLF) *998text) / obs-body

>> Isn't the final *998text counting for a line?
>> I believe the line count is the number of CRLF separators in the
>> PLUS ONE.
>> (Unless I'm mistaken by the definition of the body?)

>NNTP as presently written cannot transfer an article that does not end in
>a CRLF. In practice, clients will just add a CRLF to any article that
>doesn't already end in one, since otherwise they can't POST.

Then I suspect USEFOR ought to have said that the CRLF at the end was
REQUIRED. Do we really want to fix that now? And what if you send it by
UUCP?

The definition in Son-of-1036 is

The line count includes all body lines, including the signature if
any, including empty lines (if any) at beginning or end of the body.
(The single empty separator line between the headers and the body is
not part of the body.) The "body" here is the body as found in the
posted article, AFTER all transformations such as MIME encodings.

which doew not really answer the question. But then a final was
REQUIRED by Son-of-1036.

Looking at the implementation of Cnews, if you contrive to inject a body
with no CRLF (which most user agents would not permit), the injection
process will add a CRLF.

But I suspect that I have also hacked a bug into my cnews, because if you
check the Lines header on this message, I have a suspicion you will find
it has counted my signature twice :-( .

--
Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------
Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl
Email: [email-masked] Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K.
PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5

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From: Russ Allbery
To: "Usefor WG"
Subject: Re: Lines count in USEFOR
In-Reply-To: <93BBFC6D11974DDF8021CBE9C2AA3907@Iulius> ("Julien =?utf-8?Q?=C3=89LIE=22's?= message of "Sat, 14 Nov 2009 01:37:10 +0100")
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Julien =C3=89LIE writes:

> Ah yes, that final CRLF is not added by me but by my posting agent.

> The Lines header field indicates the number of lines in the
> (as defined in [RFC5322]) of the article.
> body =3D (*(*998text CRLF) *998text) / obs-body

> Then USEFOR uses a subset of the e-mail body. And the definition of
> the Lines: header is right for that subset but wrong in the general case
> (which may be possible in an NNTP extension).

Yeah, I'd say that's correct.

In practice, the value of Lines varies so much (it's common for user
agents to set it prior to adding the signature file, for instance) that
being off by a line is minor compared to other problems.

> The impression I said I had was when I read "Historically, this header
> field was used by the NNTP [RFC3977] overview facility, but its use for
> this purpose is now deprecated.".

> It looked to me, when reading that sentence, that this header could
> still be stored in the overview defined by RFC 3977. Which is not the
> case in OVER answers.

> As you explained, the sentence hints at LIST OVERVIEW.FMT.

> Yet, something seems to be wrong: "this header field"? Shouldn't it
> be "this header name"? Because the value is never used.

The value *used* to be used. Old versions of INN, for instance, would
copy the Lines header into the overview rather than doing their own
count and would only do their own count if there were no existing Lines
header. That's the behavior that USEFOR is saying is deprecated. It's
actually more than that; RFC 3977 outright forbids it.

--=20
Russ Allbery ([email-masked])

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Hi Russ,

> NNTP as presently written cannot transfer an article that does not end in
> a CRLF. In practice, clients will just add a CRLF to any article that
> doesn't already end in one, since otherwise they can't POST.

Ah yes, that final CRLF is not added by me but by my posting agent.

The Lines header field indicates the number of lines in the
(as defined in [RFC5322]) of the article.
body = (*(*998text CRLF) *998text) / obs-body

Then USEFOR uses a subset of the e-mail body. And the definition of
the Lines: header is right for that subset but wrong in the general case
(which may be possible in an NNTP extension).

>> The second part of the paragraph seems unclear. I am under the
>> impression that RFC 3977 says we can use Lines: in the overview but
>> USEFOR -- posterior to RFC 3977 -- deprecates that use. This header
>> field is not used by OVER in RFC 3977.
>
> RFC 3977 says that you can *call* the :lines metadata element Lines:, but
> it's still the metadata element. Per RFC 3977, the Lines header is no
> longer used to provide the basic overview information. I think that's
> what's referred to here.

The impression I said I had was when I read "Historically, this header
field was used by the NNTP [RFC3977] overview facility, but its use for
this purpose is now deprecated.".
It looked to me, when reading that sentence, that this header could still
be stored in the overview defined by RFC 3977. Which is not the case
in OVER answers.
As you explained, the sentence hints at LIST OVERVIEW.FMT.

Yet, something seems to be wrong: "this header field"? Shouldn't it
be "this header name"? Because the value is never used. (Otherwise,
its use for this purpose cannot be "deprecated" because we can no longer
retrieve the value -- it would be an unsupported feature, which is
different than deprecated.)

--
Julien Ã‰LIE

Â« There's a way of transferring funds that is even faster
than electronic banking. It's called marriage. Â» (Sam Kinison)

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From: Russ Allbery
To: "Usefor WG"
Subject: Re: Lines count in USEFOR
In-Reply-To: <29D0A5366F1E425DA8DA1F9976431D49@Iulius> ("Julien =?utf-8?Q?=C3=89LIE=22's?= message of "Sat, 14 Nov 2009 00:34:40 +0100")
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Julien =C3=89LIE writes:

> If I read RFC 5322:

> body =3D (*(*998text CRLF) *998text) / obs-body

> Isn't the final *998text counting for a line?
> I believe the line count is the number of CRLF separators in the
> PLUS ONE.
> (Unless I'm mistaken by the definition of the body?)

NNTP as presently written cannot transfer an article that does not end in
a CRLF. In practice, clients will just add a CRLF to any article that
doesn't already end in one, since otherwise they can't POST.

By the time we introduce some method of transfer that can handle arbitrary
data and therefore doesn't have this problem, I suspect the Lines header
will be completely obsolete.

> The second part of the paragraph seems unclear. I am under the
> impression that RFC 3977 says we can use Lines: in the overview but
> USEFOR -- posterior to RFC 3977 -- deprecates that use. This header
> field is not used by OVER in RFC 3977.

RFC 3977 says that you can *call* the :lines metadata element Lines:, but
it's still the metadata element. Per RFC 3977, the Lines header is no
longer used to provide the basic overview information. I think that's
what's referred to here.

--=20
Russ Allbery ([email-masked])

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From: =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Julien_=C9LIE?=
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Subject: Lines count in USEFOR
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 00:34:40 +0100
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Hi,

According to USEFOR:

3.3.1. Lines

The Lines header field indicates the number of lines in the
(as defined in [RFC5322]) of the article.

lines = "Lines:" SP *WSP 1*DIGIT *WSP CRLF

The line count is the number of CRLF separators in the .

Historically, this header field was used by the NNTP [RFC3977]
overview facility, but its use for this purpose is now deprecated.
As a result, this header field is to be regarded as obsolescent, and
it is likely to be removed entirely in a future version of this
standard. All agents SHOULD ignore it and SHOULD NOT generate it.

If I read RFC 5322:

body = (*(*998text CRLF) *998text) / obs-body

Isn't the final *998text counting for a line?
I believe the line count is the number of CRLF separators in the
PLUS ONE.
(Unless I'm mistaken by the definition of the body?)

The second part of the paragraph seems unclear. I am under the
impression that RFC 3977 says we can use Lines: in the overview
but USEFOR -- posterior to RFC 3977 -- deprecates that use.
This header field is not used by OVER in RFC 3977.

Maybe the reference to RFC 3977 should just be removed in the
paragraph. Thus leaving NNTP in general.

--
Julien ÉLIE

« A good wife always forgives her husband when she's wrong. » (Rodney Dangerfield)

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From: "Charles Lindsey"
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In <02FCE9AB44A54784A0946723975A84D3@Iulius> =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Julien_=C9LIE?= writes:

>Hi,

>Shouldn't a few things be changed in draft-ellermann-news-nntp-uri-11
>before its publication as RFC 5538?
>Especially after the changed made in RFC 5536 (USEFOR)?

Yes, but 5538 is on hold until 5536 is fixed. Then it is up to Frank in
the 1st instance (though I have recently failed to contact him by email,
and he does not seem to be reading this list anymore).

So keep your fixes on hold until we get to that point.

--
Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------
Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl
Email: [email-masked] Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K.
PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5

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In <746C5F6287DA4241B3D72A5D06B70BCB@Iulius> =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Julien_=C9LIE?= writes:

>Maybe "whitespace" should be written with a space?
>I see that RFC 5322 always uses a space.

OK, I forwarded it to the RFC Editor et al.

--
Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------
Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl
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Hi,

Shouldn't a few things be changed in draft-ellermann-news-nntp-uri-11
before its publication as RFC 5538?
Especially after the changed made in RFC 5536 (USEFOR)?

For Netnews, a
group "example" has the same name on any server carrying this group,
exotic cases involving gateways not withstanding.

* "notwithstanding", in only one word? (I do not understand otherwise
the sentence if it is the verb "to withstand".)

URI producers have to percent-encode some characters as specified
below (Section 4); otherwise, they MUST treat a "Message-ID" without
angle brackets for 'news' URLs as is, i.e., case-sensitive,
preserving quoted pairs and quoted strings.

* Quoted strings no longer exist.

nntpURL = "nntp:" server "/" group [ "/" article-number ]
server = "//" authority ; see RFC 3986
group = 1*( group-char / pct-encoded )
article-number = 1*16DIGIT ; see RFC 3977
group-char = ALPHA / DIGIT / "-" / "+" / "_" / "."

* Is it wise to redefine here, limited to 16 digits?
We already know that an article number has in pratice more than 16 digits
because a few servers (like Giganews) currently use 64-bit numbers
for article numbers. Therefore, why explicitly refer to RFC 3977?
The limitation of 16 digits may be obsoleted by an extension.

However, [RFC5536] does not (yet) permit characters outside of
and so, to keep the syntax simple, the additional
characters are here covered by as defined in [RFC3986],

* Shouldn't the sentence be changed? "(yet)" is strange. It appears
twice RFC 5538.

Please note that "%20" (space) and "%3E" (">") are not allowed. A
"%5C" (backslash, "\") can only occur in four combinations, as shown
above. Examples:

news://server.example/[email-masked]
news:[email-masked]
news:ab.cd@%5B2001:DB8::CD30%5D

* The second example is invalid. Two consecutive dots are not allowed.
Quoted strings are no longer allowed.

mid-left = 1*( mid-atext / "." ) / ;
( "%22" mid-quote "%22" ) ;
mid-quote = 1*( mid-atext / "." / ; incl.
mid-special / ; '\"' / "[" / "]"
"%5C%22" / "%5B" / "%5D" )

* This syntax is no longer allowed.

As noted above (Section 2.2), the presence of an "@" in a 'news' URI
disambiguates
and for URI consumers. The new
construct specified in [RFC3977] does not require an
"@".

* But RFC 5536 (USEFOR) requires one.

SON-OF-1036

* If its RFC number is known, it could be specified.

The work on a successor of [RFC2822] hopefully ends up with a
simplified syntax for both sides of a "Message-ID".

* This sentence should be removed. The syntax has been simplified by
RFC 5322.

[RFC4289] requires an RFC for the access types registry. Because
[SON-OF-1036] was never published as an RFC, the following paragraph
quotes the relevant definition:

NOTE: In the specific case where it is desired to essentially make
another article PART of the current one, e.g., for annotation of
the other article, MIME's "message/external-body" convention can
be used to do so without actual inclusion. "news-message-ID" was
registered as a standard external-body access method, with a
mandatory NAME parameter giving the message ID and an optional
SITE parameter suggesting an NNTP site that might have the article
available (if it is not available locally), by IANA 22 June 1993.

* Maybe the paragraph can be removed: SON-OF-1036 will soon be published
as an historic RFC.

Please note that 'news' URLs offer a very similar and (today) more
common way to access articles by their Message-ID; compare [RFC2017].

* "Message-ID" with quotes (all other occurrences use one in the document).

--
Julien ÉLIE

« C'est la goutte d'eau qui fait déborder le vase et qui met
le feu aux poudres. »

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Subject: Re: Typos in USEFOR
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Maybe "whitespace" should be written with a space?
I see that RFC 5322 always uses a space.

In USEFOR, the term appears 4 times, and only once with a space:

o Every line of a header field body (including the first and any
that are subsequently folded) MUST contain at least one non-
whitespace character.

Although comments and folding of white space are permitted throughout
the Injection-Info header field, folding SHOULD NOT be used within
any .

NOTE: [RFC2616] describes a similar facility for the HTTP
protocol. The Netnews article format differs in that "{" and "}"
are allowed in tokens ( and ) and
comments are permitted wherever whitespace is allowed.

o Every line of a header field body (including the first and any
that are subsequently folded) MUST contain at least one non-
whitespace character. This means that an empty header field body
is illegal.

--
Julien ÉLIE

« Nunc est bibendum. » (Horace)

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From: Russ Allbery
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: New syntax on message-IDs
In-Reply-To: (Charles Lindsey's message of "Fri, 6 Nov 2009 14:38:31 GMT")
Organization: The Eyrie
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"Charles Lindsey" writes:

> OK, I got that now. It essentially means "I have an article with this
> msg-id; would you like me to send it?" But in fact there is no great
> need for the server to check the syntax of the msg-id (though there is
> nothing wrong or harmful in doing so). The client has no business
> offering a bad msg-id in the first place (and wherever it got it from
> should not have sent it, right back to who/whatever constructed it in
> the first place).

Yes, there's no major need, but it's not a bad idea anyway. There is some
interoperability justification in rejecting malformed message IDs, since
some servers behave poorly if you send them one, in ways that can cause
problems in correctly identifying the error and understanding which
article to not send on to the badly behaving server. Rejecting them
up-front is in some ways cleaner.

This is particularly true of excessively long message IDs, which can cause
all sorts of weird problems.

Message IDs containing whitespace are in general just a bad idea, too,
since they're likely to break NNTP command parsing in numerous places down
the line.

--
Russ Allbery ([email-masked])

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From: "Charles Lindsey"
Subject: Re: New syntax on message-IDs
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In <[email-masked]> Russ Allbery writes:

>"Charles Lindsey" writes:
>> =?Windows-1252?Q?Julien_=C9LIE?= writes:

>>> CHECK <"test"@test>

>> CHECK is not a standard NNTP command BTW.

>RFC 4644 is standards track.

OK, I got that now. It essentially means "I have an article with this
msg-id; would you like me to send it?" But in fact there is no great need
for the server to check the syntax of the msg-id (though there is nothing
wrong or harmful in doing so). The client has no business offering a bad
msg-id in the first place (and wherever it got it from should not have
sent it, right back to who/whatever constructed it in the first place).

If a bad msg-id _does_ enter the system, then it make well propagate
perfectly well. Then again it may not (some servers may not like it; some
servers might munge it; garbage-in -> garbage-out and all that). What the
standards say is that a well-formed msg-id MUST/SHOULD progagate correctly
(modulo the right of any site to reject anything for reasons of local
policy, of course).

--
Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------
Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl
Email: [email-masked] Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K.
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From: Russ Allbery
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: New syntax on message-IDs
In-Reply-To: (Charles Lindsey's message of "Thu, 5 Nov 2009 16:51:23 GMT")
Organization: The Eyrie
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"Charles Lindsey" writes:
> =?Windows-1252?Q?Julien_=C9LIE?= writes:

>> CHECK <"test"@test>

> CHECK is not a standard NNTP command BTW.

RFC 4644 is standards track.

--
Russ Allbery ([email-masked])

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From: =?Windows-1252?Q?Julien_=C9LIE?=
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In-Reply-To:
Subject: Re: New syntax on message-IDs (was Re: AUTH48 is stuck)
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 18:43:25 +0100
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Hi Charles,

> I am surprised that
> INN bothers to test them at all. The normal implementation should just
> extract eveything within <...>, and see if it is matched in the history
> file.

Because first of all we check the syntax of NNTP commands:

IHAVE
435 Syntax error in message-ID

(We *reject* the message with 435, not 501.)

which is also done for readers:

ARTICLE bad-id
501 Syntax error in message-ID

ARTICLE 12a
501 Syntax error in article number

Secondly, the Message-ID: header will be checked in the message:

IHAVE
335 Send it
From: "Demo User"
Newsgroups: fr.test
Subject: I am just a test article
Date: 5 Nov 2009 04:38:40 -0500
Path: me
Message-ID: nasty-one!

Test.
.
437 Bad "Message-ID" header

RFC 3977:

If the server is also conforming
to another specification that contains a definition of message-id
compatible with this one, the server SHOULD use those message-ids.

I also see in USEPRO that:

[A relaying agent] MAY reject any article that contains header
fields that do not have valid contents.

so I believe that's OK.

>>CHECK <"test"@test>
>
> CHECK is not a standard NNTP command BTW.

The result would have been the same with IHAVE. See my examples above.

>>Is it OK for news servers to switch to the new USEFOR syntax right
>>now? or would it cause problems?
>>We can use that new syntax, starting with INN 2.5.2.
>
> Yes, because in practice the awkward cases will never arise.

OK, thanks.

--
Julien ÉLIE

« La science consiste à passer d'un étonnement à l'autre. » (Aristote)

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From: "Charles Lindsey"
Subject: Re: New syntax on message-IDs (was Re: AUTH48 is stuck)
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In =?Windows-1252?Q?Julien_=C9LIE?= writes:

>Hi Charles,

>>> If I understand well the new syntax in USEFOR, the following message-IDs
>>> are invalid:
>>>
>>> <"test"@test>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> whereas the following message-ID is valid:
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Correct. And the same is true in RFC 5322 also.

>OK.
>INN is currently only seeing the second one as invalid. The four other
>are considered to be valid.

I think that is more or less what I would expect, since those four would
be valid under RFC 2822, but not under RFC 5322. I don't think we need to
care whether servers accept the invalid cases. Indeed I am surprised that
INN bothers to test them at all. The normal implementation should just
extract eveything within <...>, and see if it is matched in the history
file.

As for sites that attempt to _generate_ msg-ids, then they certainly
should not be doing it. But the plain fact is that nobody ever generates
msg-ids of those formats (have you ever seen one in the wild?). So there
is really no problem.

>CHECK <"test"@test>

CHECK is not a standard NNTP command BTW.

>Is it OK for news servers to switch to the new USEFOR syntax right
>now? or would it cause problems?

>We can use that new syntax, starting with INN 2.5.2.

Yes, because in practice the awkward cases will never arise.

--
Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------
Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl
Email: [email-masked] Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K.
PGP: 2C15F1A9 Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5

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Hi,

[Bill]
>> Because a parenthesis, for instance "(", is NOT allowed in a token.
>
> CFWS allows a

Ah, I've missed that! And CFWS allows consecutive comments too.

[Antti]
> Of course not - but the parenthetical statements are not tokens, they are
> CFWSs, which are allowed between tokens in the grammar quoted above.

Well, sorry for the disturbance...

--
Julien ÉLIE

« Je suis capable du meilleur comme du pire,
mais pour le pire, c'est moi le meilleur. » (Coluche)

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Subject: New syntax on message-IDs (was Re: AUTH48 is stuck)
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Hi Charles,

>> If I understand well the new syntax in USEFOR, the following message-IDs
>> are invalid:
>>
>> <"test"@test>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> whereas the following message-ID is valid:
>>
>>
>
> Correct. And the same is true in RFC 5322 also.

OK.
INN is currently only seeing the second one as invalid. The four other
are considered to be valid.

CHECK <"test"@test>
238 <"test"@test>
CHECK
438
CHECK
238
CHECK
238
CHECK
238
CHECK
438

Note that 438 is sent (refusal to receive the article) instead of 501
(syntax error) because of backwards compatibility with existing news
servers, contrary to what RFC 3977 suggests.

> But some strange variants
> such as <"te..st@test> are allowed in the present USEFOR syntax.

INN currently considers it to be invalid. So that's fine because
the new USEFOR syntax disallows it.

CHECK <"te..st@test>
438 <"te..st@test>

Is it OK for news servers to switch to the new USEFOR syntax right
now? or would it cause problems?

We can use that new syntax, starting with INN 2.5.2.

--
Julien ÉLIE

« La différence entre un chanteur et une paire de chaussures est que le chanteur
doit partir avant de lasser. La paire de chaussures, il vaut mieux les lacer
avant de partir. » (Philippe Geluck)

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From: Antti-Juhani Kaijanaho
To: Usefor WG
Subject: Re: Issue in ABNF syntax for the User-Agent: header
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On Tue, Nov 03, 2009 at 06:31:42PM +0100, Julien ÉLIE wrote:
> >>I read in USEFOR:
> >>
> >> user-agent = "User-Agent:" SP 1*product [CFWS] CRLF
> >> product = [CFWS] token [ [CFWS] "/" product-version ]
> >> product-version = [CFWS] token
> >>
> >>and in RFC 2045:
> >>
> >> token := 1* >> or tspecials>
> >>
> >> tspecials := "(" / ")" / "<" / ">" / "@" /
> >> "," / ";" / ":" / "\" / <"> /
> >> "/" / "[" / "]" / "?" / "="
> >> ; Must be in quoted-string,
> >> ; to use within parameter values

> Because a parenthesis, for instance "(", is NOT allowed in a token.

Of course not - but the parenthetical statements are not tokens, they are
CFWSs, which are allowed between tokens in the grammar quoted above.

> I believe USEFOR should introduce the notion of a comment here (which allows
> such a construction, as RFC 2626 does), besides the product.

No need to introduce - it already allows them.

--
Antti-Juhani Kaijanaho, Jyväskylä, Finland
http://antti-juhani.kaijanaho.fi/newblog/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/antti-juhani/

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On Tue, 2009-11-03, Julien =C9LIE wrote:

> Because a parenthesis, for instance "(", is NOT allowed in a token.

CFWS allows a

--=20
Bill McQuillan

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Hi Antti-Juhani,

>> I read in USEFOR:
>>
>> user-agent = "User-Agent:" SP 1*product [CFWS] CRLF
>> product = [CFWS] token [ [CFWS] "/" product-version ]
>> product-version = [CFWS] token
>>
>> and in RFC 2045:
>>
>> token := 1*> or tspecials>
>>
>> tspecials := "(" / ")" / "<" / ">" / "@" /
>> "," / ";" / ":" / "\" / <"> /
>> "/" / "[" / "]" / "?" / "="
>> ; Must be in quoted-string,
>> ; to use within parameter values
>>
>>
>> However, a quick "HDR User-Agent -" on news.software.nntp gives at least:
>>
>> 7710 Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.1 (gnu/linux)
>> 7704 slrn/pre1.0.0-15 (Linux)
>> 7660 tin/1.9.5-20091003 ("Rieclachan") (UNIX) (Linux/2.6.24-24-generic (i686))
>> 7659 Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812)
>> 7600 MacSOUP/2.8.2 (Mac OS X version 10.5.8 (x86))
>> 7594 Turnpike/6.07-M ()
>> 7587 Pan/0.133 (House of Butterflies)
>>
>> All of them are not USEFOR-compliant!
>
> In any case, as far as I can seem they all comply. Can you explain in more
> detail why you think they don't?

Because a parenthesis, for instance "(", is NOT allowed in a token.

I believe USEFOR should introduce the notion of a comment here (which allows
such a construction, as RFC 2626 does), besides the product.

--
Julien ÉLIE

« La différence entre un chanteur et une paire de chaussures est que le chanteur
doit partir avant de lasser. La paire de chaussures, il vaut mieux les lacer
avant de partir. » (Philippe Geluck)

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Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 06:58:38 +0200
From: Antti-Juhani Kaijanaho
To: Julien =?iso-8859-1?Q?=C9LIE?=
Cc: Usefor WG
Subject: Re: Issue in ABNF syntax for the User-Agent: header
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On Mon, Nov 02, 2009 at 11:52:28PM +0100, Julien ÉLIE wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I read in USEFOR:
>
> user-agent = "User-Agent:" SP 1*product [CFWS] CRLF
> product = [CFWS] token [ [CFWS] "/" product-version ]
> product-version = [CFWS] token
>
> and in RFC 2045:
>
> token := 1* or tspecials>
>
> tspecials := "(" / ")" / "<" / ">" / "@" /
> "," / ";" / ":" / "\" / <"> /
> "/" / "[" / "]" / "?" / "="
> ; Must be in quoted-string,
> ; to use within parameter values
>
>
> However, a quick "HDR User-Agent -" on news.software.nntp gives at least:
>
> 7710 Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.1 (gnu/linux)
> 7704 slrn/pre1.0.0-15 (Linux)
> 7660 tin/1.9.5-20091003 ("Rieclachan") (UNIX) (Linux/2.6.24-24-generic (i686))
> 7659 Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812)
> 7600 MacSOUP/2.8.2 (Mac OS X version 10.5.8 (x86))
> 7594 Turnpike/6.07-M ()
> 7587 Pan/0.133 (House of Butterflies)
>
> All of them are not USEFOR-compliant!

Do you mean "None of them are" or "At least one of them is"?

In any case, as far as I can seem they all comply. Can you explain in more
detail why you think they don't?

> Incidentally, it is normal we have [CFWS] for a few headers and not others?

I believe it is intentional.

--
Antti-Juhani Kaijanaho, Jyväskylä, Finland
http://antti-juhani.kaijanaho.fi/newblog/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/antti-juhani/

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Hi,

I read in USEFOR:

user-agent = "User-Agent:" SP 1*product [CFWS] CRLF
product = [CFWS] token [ [CFWS] "/" product-version ]
product-version = [CFWS] token

and in RFC 2045:

token := 1*

tspecials := "(" / ")" / "<" / ">" / "@" /
"," / ";" / ":" / "\" / <"> /
"/" / "[" / "]" / "?" / "="
; Must be in quoted-string,
; to use within parameter values

However, a quick "HDR User-Agent -" on news.software.nntp gives at least:

7710 Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.1 (gnu/linux)
7704 slrn/pre1.0.0-15 (Linux)
7660 tin/1.9.5-20091003 ("Rieclachan") (UNIX) (Linux/2.6.24-24-generic (i686))
7659 Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (Windows/20090812)
7600 MacSOUP/2.8.2 (Mac OS X version 10.5.8 (x86))
7594 Turnpike/6.07-M ()
7587 Pan/0.133 (House of Butterflies)

All of them are not USEFOR-compliant!

Is it normal?!?

Isn't something missing in the ABNF syntax? If I read RFC 2626 for HTTP, I see:

User-Agent = "User-Agent" ":" 1*( product | comment )
comment = "(" *( ctext | quoted-pair | comment ) ")"
ctext =

which seems to be more accurate thant what USEFOR mentions.

Incidentally, it is normal we have [CFWS] for a few headers and not others?
No initial folding for Path:
path = "Path:" SP *WSP path-list tail-entry *WSP CRLF
path-list = *( path-identity [FWS] [path-diagnostic] "!" )
but a possible one for Archive:
archive = "Archive:" SP [CFWS] ("no" / "yes")
*( [CFWS] ";" [CFWS] archive-param ) [CFWS] CRLF

I think that's OK, but better be sure...

--
Julien ÉLIE

« A man inserted an 'ad' in the classifieds: "Wife wanted".
Next day he received a hundred letters. They all said
the same thing: "You can have mine." »

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From: "Charles Lindsey"
Subject: Re: Diffs for the msg-id issue in -usefor
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In <[email-masked]> Harald Alvestrand writes:

>This note sent to make sure I have everything in one place, and to make
>sure I have informed the WG of what I'm planning to do.

>Apologies for letting this drift so long.

>msg-id as proposed by Charles to allow us to reference 5322:

> message-id = "Message-ID:" SP *WSP msg-id *WSP CRLF

> msg-id = "<" msg-id-core ">"
> ; maximum length is 250 octets

> msg-id-core = id-left "@" id-right

> id-left = dot-atom-text

> id-right = dot-atom-text / no-fold-literal

> no-fold-literal = "[" **mdtext* "]"
^ ^

You seem to have found a couple of superflous '*' in there. Otherwise it
is all correct.

> mdtext = %d33-61 / ; The rest of the US-ASCII
> %d63-90 / ; characters not including
> %d94-126 ; ">", "[", "]", or "\"

>The differences between this proposal and 5322 are:
>- No CFWS before or after
>- No obs-* productions
>- No > characters inside a no-fold-literal

There were also various other consequential changes to the text and other
nits from Julien, which I have already emailed you about off-list.

--
Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------
Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl
Email: [email-masked] Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K.
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From: Harald Alvestrand
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Subject: Diffs for the msg-id issue in -usefor
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This note sent to make sure I have everything in one place, and to make
sure I have informed the WG of what I'm planning to do.

Apologies for letting this drift so long.

Msg-id as defined in RFC 2822:

message-id = "Message-ID:" msg-id CRLF

in-reply-to = "In-Reply-To:" 1*msg-id CRLF

references = "References:" 1*msg-id CRLF

msg-id = [CFWS] "<" id-left "@" id-right ">" [CFWS]

id-left = dot-atom-text / no-fold-quote / obs-id-left

id-right = dot-atom-text / no-fold-literal / obs-id-right

no-fold-quote = DQUOTE *(qtext / quoted-pair) DQUOTE

no-fold-literal = "[" *(dtext / quoted-pair) "]"

Msg-id as defined in RFC 5322:

msg-id = [CFWS] "<" id-left "@" id-right ">" [CFWS]

id-left = dot-atom-text / obs-id-left

id-right = dot-atom-text / no-fold-literal / obs-id-right

no-fold-literal = "[" *dtext "]"

Msg-id as defined in -usefor:

msg-id = "<" msg-id-core ">"
; maximum length is 250 octets

msg-id-core = id-left "@" id-right

id-left = dot-atom-text / no-fold-quote

id-right = dot-atom-text / no-fold-literal

no-fold-quote = DQUOTE
( "." *mqtext /
*mqtext "." /
*mqtext mqspecial *mqtext )
DQUOTE

mqtext = atext / "." / mqspecial

mqspecial = "(" / ")" / ; same as specials except
"<" / ; "\" and DQUOTE quoted
"[" / "]" / ; "." doubled and ">" omitted
":" / ";" /
"@" / "," /
".." / "\\" / "\" DQUOTE

no-fold-literal = "[" *( mdtext / "\[" / "\]" / "\\" ) "]"

mdtext = %d33-61 / ; The rest of the US-ASCII
%d63-90 / ; characters not including
%d94-126 ; ">", "[", "]", or "\"

msg-id as proposed by Charles to allow us to reference 5322:

message-id = "Message-ID:" SP *WSP msg-id *WSP CRLF

msg-id = "<" msg-id-core ">"
; maximum length is 250 octets

msg-id-core = id-left "@" id-right

id-left = dot-atom-text

id-right = dot-atom-text / no-fold-literal

no-fold-literal = "[" **mdtext* "]"

mdtext = %d33-61 / ; The rest of the US-ASCII
%d63-90 / ; characters not including
%d94-126 ; ">", "[", "]", or "\"

The differences between this proposal and 5322 are:
- No CFWS before or after
- No obs-* productions
- No > characters inside a no-fold-literal

I think this is appropriate, and will tell the RFC Editor that he should make that change.

Harald

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From: Harald Alvestrand
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To: Charles Lindsey
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Subject: Re: AUTH48 is stuck
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I've woken up now, and will try to deal with this.

Charles, I have your diffs from September 21. I will try to inspect
them, and if I approve them, I think we can get this unstuck.

Harald

Charles Lindsey wrote:
> RFC 5536 (aka our USEFOR) draft is stuck in AUTH 48.
>
> The problem is that it is agreed it needs to refer to RFC 5532 rather than
> RFC 2822, but RFC has changed the syntax of Message-ID (considerably
> simplified it) and this has consequential effects on the corresponding
> syntax in RFC 5536.
>
> I published the changes I considered desirable (a considerable
> simplification in fact) in this WG months and months ago, and I thought we
> had rough consensus that they should go ahead - certainly several people
> seemed happy with the idea, and none opposed it.
>
> But I am only the second editor. Ken Murchison is the primary editor and
> holds the responsibility for communicating the changes to the RFC Editor,
> unless either he or Harald decides or requests otherwise. But there has
> been total silence from Ken, apart from two messages to say he would do it
> "RSN".
>
> Every month, the RFC Editor circulates to the editors and others concerned
> an enquiry as to whether the changes are yet available, and each month I
> reply saying we are still waiting for Ken.
>
> In desperation a few weeks ago, I prepared the diffs I considered
> necessary in the required format, and sent them to Ken (CC to Harald)
> with a request that he either adopted them, or did his own, or authorized
> me to submit them myself. But there has been no reply.
>
> How can we proceed if neither Ken nor Harald are replying to emails? And
> how else can we proceed?
>
>