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From w3c-dist-auth-request@listhub.w3.org  Mon Nov  2 02:16:59 2009
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Hello,

Late comment on draft-reschke-webdav-post:

Browser based applications are not allowed to upload files from the 
client filesystem by any mean other than using an HTML form containing a 
file param and an enctype of multipart/form-data. As a consequence, 
those applications have no way to upload local files to a WebDAV 
repository using PUT (my knowledge of browser based technologies is 
rather limited but I have found at least a few references to this 
limitation).

http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-reschke-webdav-post could partially 
solve this issue by simply allowing a multipart/form-data containing a 
single subpart to be POSTed.

Modifying a resource by uploading it again would still not be possible 
of course but that can be somehow workarounded.

Arnaud Quillaud




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> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

--B_3340005355_1018399
Content-type: text/plain;
	charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

I am writing a dav client. I have included support for using iso-8859-1 and
utf-8 as well as us-ascii for encoding and decoding URIs in the client.

Tests that include accented characters, e.g. =C9, against Apache2 running on
CentOS 4 are successful. However, the same tests against Apache2 hosted on
Windows Server 2008 fails on a 405 error.

I have checked the access, error and forensic logs, and the contents look
fine. They compare well to those on the Centos machine.

I would be most grateful for suggestions or links to help me sort this out
this problem on Windows.

 - Mark

--B_3340005355_1018399
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	charset="ISO-8859-1"
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<HTML>
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<TITLE>MKCOL, Windows and 405</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt=
'>I am writing a dav client. I have included support for using iso-8859-1 an=
d utf-8 as well as us-ascii for encoding and decoding URIs in the client. <B=
R>
<BR>
Tests that include accented characters, e.g. &Eacute;, against Apache2 runn=
ing on CentOS 4 are successful. However, the same tests against Apache2 host=
ed on Windows Server 2008 fails on a 405 error.<BR>
<BR>
I have checked the access, error and forensic logs, and the contents look f=
ine. They compare well to those on the Centos machine.<BR>
<BR>
I would be most grateful for suggestions or links to help me sort this out =
this problem on Windows. <BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;- Mark</SPAN></FONT>
</BODY>
</HTML>


--B_3340005355_1018399--



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From: Petr Tomasek <tomasek@etf.cuni.cz>
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On Mon, Nov 02, 2009 at 11:15:02AM +0100, Arnaud Quillaud wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> Late comment on draft-reschke-webdav-post:
> 
> Browser based applications are not allowed to upload files from the 
> client filesystem by any mean other than using an HTML form containing a 
> file param and an enctype of multipart/form-data. As a consequence, 
> those applications have no way to upload local files to a WebDAV 
> repository using PUT (my knowledge of browser based technologies is 
> rather limited but I have found at least a few references to this 
> limitation).
> 
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-reschke-webdav-post could partially 
> solve this issue by simply allowing a multipart/form-data containing a 
> single subpart to be POSTed.
> 
> Modifying a resource by uploading it again would still not be possible 
> of course but that can be somehow workarounded.
> 
> Arnaud Quillaud

Wouldn't it be easier (and a cleaner solution) if the browsers just supported PUT/WebDAV?

P.T.

-- 
Petr Tomasek <http://www.etf.cuni.cz/~tomasek>
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On 11/2/09 8:36 PM, Petr Tomasek wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 02, 2009 at 11:15:02AM +0100, Arnaud Quillaud wrote:
>    
>> Hello,
>>
>> Late comment on draft-reschke-webdav-post:
>>
>> Browser based applications are not allowed to upload files from the
>> client filesystem by any mean other than using an HTML form containing a
>> file param and an enctype of multipart/form-data. As a consequence,
>> those applications have no way to upload local files to a WebDAV
>> repository using PUT (my knowledge of browser based technologies is
>> rather limited but I have found at least a few references to this
>> limitation).
>>
>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-reschke-webdav-post could partially
>> solve this issue by simply allowing a multipart/form-data containing a
>> single subpart to be POSTed.
>>
>> Modifying a resource by uploading it again would still not be possible
>> of course but that can be somehow workarounded.
>>
>> Arnaud Quillaud
>>      
> Wouldn't it be easier (and a cleaner solution) if the browsers just supported PUT/WebDAV?
>    
It might be cleaner but definitely not easier to get this standardized 
on all browsers (and have all legacy browsers disappear).

Found a page describing the behavior of different browsers at 
http://pseudo-flaw.net/content/web-browsers/form-data-encoding-roundup/

Arnaud Quillaud
> P.T.
>
>    



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Arnaud Quillaud wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Late comment on draft-reschke-webdav-post:
>
> Browser based applications are not allowed to upload files from the
> client filesystem by any mean other than using an HTML form containing
> a file param and an enctype of multipart/form-data. As a consequence,
> those applications have no way to upload local files to a WebDAV 
> repository using PUT (my knowledge of browser based technologies is 
> rather limited but I have found at least a few references to this 
> limitation).
>
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-reschke-webdav-post could partially
> solve this issue by simply allowing a multipart/form-data containing a 
> single subpart to be POSTed.

It could. However I'm not entirely happe with special casing a single mime type.

An alternative would be to define a *second* URI that would accept POST requests from HTML forms.

> Modifying a resource by uploading it again would still not be possible > of course but that can be somehow workarounded.

Orthogonal problem...

Best regards, Julian

-- 
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From: Cyrus Daboo <cyrus@daboo.name>
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Hi,
I have heard from some implementors that they would like collection 
creation to also be part of this draft. In particular, CalDAV and/or 
CardDAV clients creating calendars or address books would prefer to leave 
specification of the resource name to the client.

Proposal:

- Add a DAV:add-collection property containing a URI (which must be 
different than DAV:add-member)
- A POST on that URI creates a collection within the parent collection, 
with a server chosen resource name
- If the POST contains an XML body with DAV:mkcol as the root element, then 
that body is interpreted the same way as MKCOL ext.

Comment:
For the Example in section 3.4 it might be better to have the request body 
contain text that is different from that in the Slug header to make it 
clear where the name the server chose is coming from.

-- 
Cyrus Daboo



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Cyrus Daboo wrote:
> Hi,
> I have heard from some implementors that they would like collection 
> creation to also be part of this draft. In particular, CalDAV and/or 
> CardDAV clients creating calendars or address books would prefer to 
> leave specification of the resource name to the client.
> 
> Proposal:
> 
> - Add a DAV:add-collection property containing a URI (which must be 
> different than DAV:add-member)
> - A POST on that URI creates a collection within the parent collection, 
> with a server chosen resource name
> - If the POST contains an XML body with DAV:mkcol as the root element, 
> then that body is interpreted the same way as MKCOL ext.

Sounds good to me. Before I make this change -- the doc already being in 
state "publication requested" -- does anybody have a problem with this? 
(Note it's totally optional; a server that doesn't want to support this 
simply wouldn't expose the property).

> Comment:
> For the Example in section 3.4 it might be better to have the request 
> body contain text that is different from that in the Slug header to make 
> it clear where the name the server chose is coming from.

Good point. Fixed in 
<http://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/draft-reschke-webdav-post-latest.html>.

Best regards, Julian


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Doomsday in Chicago
http://bahienses.webcindario.com/important.html

From webdav-archive@lists.ietf.org  Wed Nov 11 09:06:37 2009
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It's help for you
http://school.obec.go.th/bantoo_school/important.html

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Rare picture of Gucci
http://school.obec.go.th/bankhowong/important.html

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From webdav-archive@lists.ietf.org  Wed Nov 11 09:42:22 2009
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From webdav-archive@ietf.org  Wed Nov 11 09:43:36 2009
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From webdav-archive@ietf.org  Wed Nov 11 13:39:05 2009
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From webdav-archive@ietf.org  Fri Nov 13 14:43:00 2009
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Topics to view
http://kostadin-k.by.ru/hot.html

From webdav-archive@lists.ietf.org  Fri Nov 13 14:43:07 2009
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Why don't joing FB group?
http://Lame.by.ru/hot.html

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Spellchecking
http://school.obec.go.th/kramad/hot.html

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From webdav-archive@lists.ietf.org  Fri Nov 13 18:15:24 2009
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		Volume 19, Issue <font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"  style="font-size:11px;" color="#000000">
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From webdav-archive@lists.ietf.org  Sun Nov 15 11:47:59 2009
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		Volume 15, Issue <font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"  style="font-size:11px;" color="#000000">
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From webdav-archive@lists.ietf.org  Mon Nov 16 20:23:57 2009
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From webdav-archive@lists.ietf.org  Wed Nov 18 10:40:16 2009
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From webdav-archive@megatron.ietf.org  Wed Nov 18 10:40:29 2009
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From webdav-archive@lists.ietf.org  Wed Nov 18 18:32:02 2009
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From webdav-archive@ietf.org  Wed Nov 18 21:02:03 2009
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Coming together tomorrow
http://www.neda.ro/hot.html

From webdav-archive@lists.ietf.org  Wed Nov 18 21:02:07 2009
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Another exciting one
http://ndt.110mb.com/hot.html

From webdav-archive@megatron.ietf.org  Wed Nov 18 21:02:09 2009
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Message me in return
http://members.chello.hu/nandras/hot.html

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(FYI)

Julian Reschke wrote:
> (FYI)
> 
> This draft defines five link relations that can be used to navigate 
> between versions, editable resources and version histories.
> 
> The main change compared to the previous draft is that we changed the 
> terminology so that it can be used for CMIS/AtomPub, WebDAV, and JCR 
> (Java Content Repository).
> 
> I have also added an informative appendix that shows how the link 
> relation could be used inside the HTTP "Link" header in the context of 
> WebDAV.
> 
> Feedback appreciated,
> 
> Julian
> 
> 
> Internet-Drafts@ietf.org wrote:
>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts 
>> directories.
>>
>>     Title           : Link Relations for Simple Version Navigation
>>     Author(s)       : A. Brown, et al.
>>     Filename        : draft-brown-versioning-link-relations-02.txt
>>     Pages           : 9
>>     Date            : 2009-11-19
>>
>> This specification defines Atom link relations for navigation between
>> a resource and its versions.
>>
>> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-brown-versioning-link-relations-02.txt 
>>
>>
>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>>
>> Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
>> implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the
>> Internet-Draft.
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> I-D-Announce mailing list
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>> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
> 
> 



From webdav-archive@ietf.org  Thu Nov 19 04:26:18 2009
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Hello,

I have just submitted a new version of the webdav sync draft ( 
http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-daboo-webdav-sync-02.txt ).

This draft addresses several, if not all, of the comments from the last 
version (change history is part of the draft).

The open issues section still contains 2 significant items, to be discussed.

Comments welcome...

Arnaud Quillaud


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From w3c-dist-auth-request@listhub.w3.org  Thu Nov 19 23:10:50 2009
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Andrew McMillan wrote:
> ...
> In 4.2, under 'Marshalling' it states:
> 
>         The request URI MUST be a collection.  The request body MUST be
>         a DAV:sync-collection XML element (see Section 6.1), which MUST
>         contain one DAV:sync-token XML element, and optionally a
>         DAV:propstat XML element.
> ...

Nit: s/be a collection/identify a collection/

I confess I haven't looked at this closely yet, but why is it defining 
elements in the DAV: namespace?

BR, Julian


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From: Cyrus Daboo <cyrus@daboo.name>
To: Julian Reschke <julian.reschke@gmx.de>, Andrew McMillan <andrew@morphoss.com>
cc: Arnaud Quillaud <Arnaud.Quillaud@Sun.COM>, caldav@ietf.org, w3c-dist-auth@w3.org, vcarddav@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [caldav] [VCARDDAV] new webdav sync draft
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Hi Julian,

--On November 20, 2009 8:08:41 AM +0100 Julian Reschke 
<julian.reschke@gmx.de> wrote:

>>         The request URI MUST be a collection.  The request body MUST be
>>         a DAV:sync-collection XML element (see Section 6.1), which MUST
>>         contain one DAV:sync-token XML element, and optionally a
>>         DAV:propstat XML element.
>> ...
>
> Nit: s/be a collection/identify a collection/
>
> I confess I haven't looked at this closely yet, but why is it defining
> elements in the DAV: namespace?

This is generic to WebDAV, not specific to CardDAV or CalDAV. So use of 
DAV: is justified.

-- 
Cyrus Daboo



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Subject: last-calling I-D Action:draft-brown-versioning-link-relations-03
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(FYI)

This update to yesterday's draft is purely editorial, moving each link 
relation into a proper subsection, and using the correct IANA 
registration template as defined per RFC 4287.

At this point we'd like to ask the community for final feedback; we are 
planning to request publication in two weeks from now (Dec 04).

Best regards,

Julian


Internet-Drafts@ietf.org wrote:
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
> 
> 	Title           : Link Relations for Simple Version Navigation
> 	Author(s)       : A. Brown, et al.
> 	Filename        : draft-brown-versioning-link-relations-03.txt
> 	Pages           : 11
> 	Date            : 2009-11-20
> 
> This specification defines Atom link relations for navigation between
> a resource and its versions.
> 
> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-brown-versioning-link-relations-03.txt
> 
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
> 
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> 
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> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt



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To: Cyrus Daboo <cyrus@daboo.name>
CC: Andrew McMillan <andrew@morphoss.com>,  Arnaud Quillaud <Arnaud.Quillaud@Sun.COM>, caldav@ietf.org, w3c-dist-auth@w3.org, vcarddav@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [caldav] [VCARDDAV] new webdav sync draft
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Cyrus Daboo wrote:
> ...
>> I confess I haven't looked at this closely yet, but why is it defining
>> elements in the DAV: namespace?
> 
> This is generic to WebDAV, not specific to CardDAV or CalDAV. So use of 
> DAV: is justified.
> ...

<http://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/rfc4918.html#rfc.section.21.1>:

"Creation of identifiers in the "DAV:" namespace is controlled by the IETF."

So it's not relevant whether something is generic. What's important is 
that there's IETF consensus to add new names to the namespace.

I'm not saying this can't be the case here, but I think the proper way 
would be to start with a proposal in a custom namespace, and then switch 
to the DAV: namespace once it's clear that consensus has been achieved.

BR, Julian


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From: Arnaud Quillaud <Arnaud.Quillaud@Sun.COM>
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--Boundary_(ID_6nHdPuL4GveD3G1pS17k4A)
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On 11/19/09 11:01 PM, Andrew McMillan wrote:
> On Thu, 2009-11-19 at 18:20 +0100, Arnaud Quillaud wrote:
>    
>> Hello,
>>
>> I have just submitted a new version of the webdav sync draft (
>> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-daboo-webdav-sync-02.txt ).
>>
>> This draft addresses several, if not all, of the comments from the last
>> version (change history is part of the draft).
>>
>> The open issues section still contains 2 significant items, to be discussed.
>>
>> Comments welcome...
>>      
> Hi Arnaud,
>
> I have added support for this as at draft 1, and I see nothing in draft
> 2 to contradict what I have done other than clarifications and further
> questions, so that's great.
>
>
> In 4.2, under 'Marshalling' it states:
>
>          The request URI MUST be a collection.  The request body MUST be
>          a DAV:sync-collection XML element (see Section 6.1), which MUST
>          contain one DAV:sync-token XML element, and optionally a
>          DAV:propstat XML element.
>
> This looks like an error, and that the optional element should be a
> DAV:prop element rather than a DAV:propstat, which is the response.
>    
Fixed. Thks.
>
> Additionally, the examples shown seem to only request 'DAV:getetag' to
> be returned, but it seems to me that in synchronising a collection that
> it would be valuable for the report to return other properties.
>    
Yes. I could add a proprietary dead property in the example to make it 
more clear.
> In particular when synchronising a calendar collection it would be
> desirable for the report to be able to return 'caldav:calendar-data',
> which in many cases would then save the further round-trip of a
> calendar-multiget report following this report.  I assume there would be
> similar advantages in retrieving the actual changed data in other
>
> Is it intended that this sort of activity is OK?  In my implementation I
> have assumed that any property might be requested - not limited to
> DAV:getetag - but from reading the examples it seems to me that it could
> be misinterpreted conservatively as only allowing requests for
> DAV:getetag.
>
>    
A client may ask for any property... as long as it is defined as such... 
calendar-data is not one of them. See 
http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4791#section-9.6 :
<<

However, the CALDAV:calendar-data XML element is
       not a WebDAV property and, as such, is not returned in PROPFIND
       responses

 >>

Thanks for your feedback.

Arnaud

PS: I should have mentioned this upfront but we may want to move further 
discussion to the  w3c-dist-auth@w3.org mailing list only to avoid too 
much cross posting.

--Boundary_(ID_6nHdPuL4GveD3G1pS17k4A)
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
  <meta content=3D"text/html; charset=3DUTF-8" http-equiv=3D"Content-Type=
">
</head>
<body bgcolor=3D"#ffffff" text=3D"#000000">
On 11/19/09 11:01 PM, Andrew McMillan wrote:
<blockquote
 cite=3D"mid:1258668093.15545.555.camel@happy.home.mcmillan.net.nz"
 type=3D"cite">
  <pre wrap=3D"">On Thu, 2009-11-19 at 18:20 +0100, Arnaud Quillaud wrote=
:
  </pre>
  <blockquote type=3D"cite">
    <pre wrap=3D"">Hello,

I have just submitted a new version of the webdav sync draft (=20
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-d=
aboo-webdav-sync-02.txt">http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-daboo-webdav-sync-0=
2.txt</a> ).

This draft addresses several, if not all, of the comments from the last=20
version (change history is part of the draft).

The open issues section still contains 2 significant items, to be discuss=
ed.

Comments welcome...
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=3D"">
Hi Arnaud,

I have added support for this as at draft 1, and I see nothing in draft
2 to contradict what I have done other than clarifications and further
questions, so that's great.


In 4.2, under 'Marshalling' it states:

        The request URI MUST be a collection.  The request body MUST be
        a DAV:sync-collection XML element (see Section 6.1), which MUST
        contain one DAV:sync-token XML element, and optionally a
        DAV:propstat XML element.

This looks like an error, and that the optional element should be a
DAV:prop element rather than a DAV:propstat, which is the response.
  </pre>
</blockquote>
Fixed. Thks.<br>
<blockquote
 cite=3D"mid:1258668093.15545.555.camel@happy.home.mcmillan.net.nz"
 type=3D"cite">
  <pre wrap=3D"">

Additionally, the examples shown seem to only request 'DAV:getetag' to
be returned, but it seems to me that in synchronising a collection that
it would be valuable for the report to return other properties.
  </pre>
</blockquote>
Yes. I could add a proprietary dead property in the example to make it
more clear.
<blockquote
 cite=3D"mid:1258668093.15545.555.camel@happy.home.mcmillan.net.nz"
 type=3D"cite">
  <pre wrap=3D"">
In particular when synchronising a calendar collection it would be
desirable for the report to be able to return 'caldav:calendar-data',
which in many cases would then save the further round-trip of a
calendar-multiget report following this report.  I assume there would be
similar advantages in retrieving the actual changed data in other=20

Is it intended that this sort of activity is OK?  In my implementation I
have assumed that any property might be requested - not limited to
DAV:getetag - but from reading the examples it seems to me that it could
be misinterpreted conservatively as only allowing requests for
DAV:getetag.

  </pre>
</blockquote>
A client may ask for any property... as long as it is defined as
such... calendar-data is not one of them. See
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc=
4791#section-9.6">http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4791#section-9.6</a> :<br=
>
&lt;&lt;
<meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DUTF-8">
<pre class=3D"newpage">However, the CALDAV:calendar-data XML element is
      not a WebDAV property and, as such, is not returned in PROPFIND
      responses</pre>
&gt;&gt;<br>
<br>
Thanks for your feedback.<br>
<br>
Arnaud<br>
<br>
PS: I should have mentioned this upfront but we may want to move
further discussion to the=C2=A0 <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" hre=
f=3D"mailto:w3c-dist-auth@w3.org">w3c-dist-auth@w3.org</a> mailing list o=
nly to
avoid too much cross posting.<br>
</body>
</html>

--Boundary_(ID_6nHdPuL4GveD3G1pS17k4A)--


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Alexey Melnikov wrote:
> ...
>> <http://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/rfc4918.html#rfc.section.21.1>:
>>
>> "Creation of identifiers in the "DAV:" namespace is controlled by the 
>> IETF."
>>
>> So it's not relevant whether something is generic. What's important is 
>> that there's IETF consensus to add new names to the namespace.
>>
>> I'm not saying this can't be the case here, but I think the proper way 
>> would be to start with a proposal in a custom namespace, and then 
>> switch to the DAV: namespace once it's clear that consensus has been 
>> achieved.
> 
> This sounds like a question to bring during IETF LC. If the document 
> fails to reach IETF consensus, then the prefix can be changed.
> Unless you are concerned about early implementations of the draft.
> ...

Not sure.

What you say makes it sound as if any document published by the IETF can 
use the DAV: namespace; I think the intent of RFC 4918 was something 
else (but I may be misinterpreting it): the default extension point for 
WebDAV (both in RFC 4918 and 2518) is to put extensions into a 
*different* namespace.

So far we have made exceptions in cases where the specs actually started 
as WG deliverables (redirect, search, or bind), were proposed by another 
WG (MKCOL extension), or were a *really* minor extension to an existing 
WebDAV spec (WebDAV Current Principal Extension).

The concern about early implementations is there as well, of course.

Best regards, Julian




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On Fri, 2009-11-20 at 17:13 +0100, Arnaud Quillaud wrote:
> On 11/19/09 11:01 PM, Andrew McMillan wrote:=20
> >=20
> > In particular when synchronising a calendar collection it would be
> > desirable for the report to be able to return 'caldav:calendar-data',
> > which in many cases would then save the further round-trip of a
> > calendar-multiget report following this report.  I assume there would b=
e
> > similar advantages in retrieving the actual changed data in other exten=
sions.

 =20
> A client may ask for any property... as long as it is defined as
> such... calendar-data is not one of them. See
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4791#section-9.6 :
> <<=20
> However, the CALDAV:calendar-data XML element is
>       not a WebDAV property and, as such, is not returned in PROPFIND
>       responses
> >>

Ah, what a shame.  Can I take it from this that CardDAV will also suffer
from this limitation?


> PS: I should have mentioned this upfront but we may want to move
> further discussion to the  w3c-dist-auth@w3.org mailing list only to
> avoid too much cross posting.

OK, I have done so.

Cheers,
					Andrew.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://andrew.mcmillan.net.nz/                     Porirua, New Zealand
Twitter: _karora                                  Phone: +64(272)DEBIAN
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Andrew McMillan wrote:
> On Fri, 2009-11-20 at 17:13 +0100, Arnaud Quillaud wrote:
>> On 11/19/09 11:01 PM, Andrew McMillan wrote: 
>>> In particular when synchronising a calendar collection it would be
>>> desirable for the report to be able to return 'caldav:calendar-data',
>>> which in many cases would then save the further round-trip of a
>>> calendar-multiget report following this report.  I assume there would be
>>> similar advantages in retrieving the actual changed data in other extensions.
> 
>   
>> A client may ask for any property... as long as it is defined as
>> such... calendar-data is not one of them. See
>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4791#section-9.6 :
>> << 
>> However, the CALDAV:calendar-data XML element is
>>       not a WebDAV property and, as such, is not returned in PROPFIND
>>       responses
> 
> Ah, what a shame.  Can I take it from this that CardDAV will also suffer
> from this limitation?
> ...

Can't resist: "I told you so". Pseudo-properties are bad; they require 
more special cases, create ambiguities and confusion.

 > ..

BR, Julian


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On Sat, 2009-11-21 at 07:56 +0100, Julian Reschke wrote:
> Andrew McMillan wrote:
> > On Fri, 2009-11-20 at 17:13 +0100, Arnaud Quillaud wrote:
> >> On 11/19/09 11:01 PM, Andrew McMillan wrote:=20
> >>> In particular when synchronising a calendar collection it would be
> >>> desirable for the report to be able to return 'caldav:calendar-data',
> >>> which in many cases would then save the further round-trip of a
> >>> calendar-multiget report following this report.  I assume there would=
 be
> >>> similar advantages in retrieving the actual changed data in other ext=
ensions.
> >=20
> >  =20
> >> A client may ask for any property... as long as it is defined as
> >> such... calendar-data is not one of them. See
> >> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4791#section-9.6 :
> >> <<=20
> >> However, the CALDAV:calendar-data XML element is
> >>       not a WebDAV property and, as such, is not returned in PROPFIND
> >>       responses
> >=20
> > Ah, what a shame.  Can I take it from this that CardDAV will also suffe=
r
> > from this limitation?
> > ...
>=20
> Can't resist: "I told you so". Pseudo-properties are bad; they require=20
> more special cases, create ambiguities and confusion.

Conceptually, the idea of the actual data just being one element of the
meta-data doesn't seem unreasonable.

I have to confess that in my implementations to date I had just assumed
that the data is only one property within the schema, and it's certainly
much simpler for me to code it that way in my own application.

For webdav sync I would suggest that the caldav:calendar-data and
carddav:address-data (and perhaps other pseudo-properties I don't know
about) should be available to the sync report in the same way as they
are for the caldav:calendar-multiget and carddav:addressbook-multiget
reports.

It would also be nice to see a generic DAV:multiget report replacing the
*-multiget reports, since they don't seem to do anything particularly
special within their respective namespaces.

Cheers,
					Andrew McMillan.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://andrew.mcmillan.net.nz/                     Porirua, New Zealand
Twitter: _karora                                  Phone: +64(272)DEBIAN
       The truth is rarely pure, and never simple. -- Oscar Wilde
------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Andrew McMillan wrote:
> ...
>> Can't resist: "I told you so". Pseudo-properties are bad; they require 
>> more special cases, create ambiguities and confusion.
> 
> Conceptually, the idea of the actual data just being one element of the
> meta-data doesn't seem unreasonable.
> ...

Yes, that is true. But in that case, it should behave the same 
everywhere, be it PROPFIND, PROPPATCH, REPORT or SEARCH.

> I have to confess that in my implementations to date I had just assumed
> that the data is only one property within the schema, and it's certainly
> much simpler for me to code it that way in my own application.

Indeed.

> ...

BR, Julian


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From w3c-dist-auth-request@listhub.w3.org  Sun Nov 22 09:47:32 2009
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FYI:

This draft contains a few editorial improvements and updates of references.

There's one open issue that Cyrus raised a few weeks ago on this mailing 
list 
(<http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-dist-auth/2009OctDec/0010.html>): 
should we add support for creating collections as well? I'm still 
waiting for more feedback on this issue.

Best regards, Julian


Internet-Drafts@ietf.org wrote:
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
> 
> 	Title           : Using POST to add Members to Web Distributed Authoring and Versioning (WebDAV) Collections
> 	Author(s)       : J. Reschke
> 	Filename        : draft-reschke-webdav-post-05.txt
> 	Pages           : 14
> 	Date            : 2009-11-22
> 
> The Hypertext Transfer Protocol (HTTP) Extensions for the Web
> Distributed Authoring and Versioning (WebDAV) do not define the
> behavior for the "POST" method when applied to collections, as the
> base specification (HTTP) leaves implementers lots of freedom for the
> semantics of "POST".
> 
> This has led to a situation where many WebDAV servers do not
> implement POST for collections at all, although it is well suited to
> be used for the purpose of adding new members to a collection, where
> the server remains in control of the newly assigned URL.  As a matter
> of fact, the Atom Publishing Protocol (AtomPub) uses POST exactly for
> that purpose.  On the other hand, WebDAV-based protocols such as the
> Calendar Extensions to WebDAV (CalDAV) frequently require clients to
> pick a unique URL, although the server could easily perform that
> task.
> 
> This specification defines a discovery mechanism through which
> servers can advertise support for POST requests with the
> aforementioned "add collection member" semantics.
> 
> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-reschke-webdav-post-05.txt
> 
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
> 
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> Internet-Draft.
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> 
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From webdav-archive@lists.ietf.org  Mon Nov 23 06:13:11 2009
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From webdav-archive@lists.ietf.org  Mon Nov 23 16:08:31 2009
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From w3c-dist-auth-request@listhub.w3.org  Tue Nov 24 02:56:44 2009
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Subject: Re: Comments on Action:draft-brown-versioning-link-relations-03
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Hi Jan,

first of all thanks for the feedback!

Jan Algermissen wrote:
> Julian,
> 
> some comments on the link relation draft:
>
 > 2. Terminology
> 
> It is not clear to me, what the meaning of 'check out' and 'check in'. 

Yes, we need to add text here. We originally started with the 
definitions with RFC 3253 (WebDAV versioning), but later on decided 
later on to just rely on generic definitions to make this work better 
with CMIS and JCR.

> Also, the text (IMO) creates the impression that versioning can only 
> take place when 'check out' and 'check in' are applied. However, a 
> resource could also be versioned by the server upon any modification 
> made by a client regardless of any 'checking out' or 'checking in'. The 
> link relations specified would still make sense.

Indeed; and that's something that can even happen in WebDAV versioning 
(through the various modes of auto-versioning).

> Assuming that 'checking out' and 'checking in' are operations on 
> resources, I think the draft should address how clients achieve these 
> operations. This would at least involve another link relation and 
> specification how to use the linked resource to perform a checkout.

These kinds of operations are specific to the protocol in which they are 
used, while the link relations are meant to be generic; thus I'd avoid 
to go that way.

For now, I've added this to the issues list: 
<http://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/draft-brown-versioning-link-relations-issues.html#issue.checked-out>. 
I'll try to make a change proposal soonish.

> Or am I misunderstanding what the draft is trying to do?
> 
> Appendix A
> 
> It should be 'working-copy' instead of 'working-resource'.

Indeed. Thanks for catching this.

> I am glad to see this happening. Covers a lot of stuff that comes up in 
> almost every project. Thanks.

That's good to hear, because defining generic link relations doesn't 
make sense unless there are generic use cases for them :-)

Best regards, Julian


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(FYI)

Internet-Drafts@ietf.org wrote:
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
> 
> 	Title           : PATCH Method for HTTP
> 	Author(s)       : L. Dusseault, J. Snell
> 	Filename        : draft-dusseault-http-patch-16.txt
> 	Pages           : 14
> 	Date            : 2009-11-25
> 
> Several applications extending the Hypertext Transfer Protocol (HTTP)
> require a feature to do partial resource modification.  The existing
> HTTP PUT method only allows a complete replacement of a document.
> This proposal adds a new HTTP method, PATCH, to modify an existing
> HTTP resource.
> 
> Status of this Memo
> 
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Subject: Content-Location and etag, was: I-D Action:draft-dusseault-http-patch-16.txt
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Resent-Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2009 12:59:01 +0000

Hi,

in response to earlier comments the draft now has the following example 
in <http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dusseault-http-patch-16#section-2.1>:

--- old ---
    This example illustrates use of a hypothetical patch document on an
    existing resource.  The 204 response code is used because the
    response does not have a body (a response with the 200 code would
    have a body) but other success codes can be used if appropriate.

    Successful PATCH response to existing text file

    HTTP/1.1 204 No Content
    Content-Location: /file.txt
    ETag: "e0023aa4f"
--- old ---

It's good that Content-Location was added, making this consistent with 
the proposed resolution of 
<http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/httpbis/trac/ticket/110>.

However, it would be even better it there was a short explanation, such 
as in:

--- new ---
    This example illustrates use of a hypothetical patch document on an
    existing resource.

    Successful PATCH response to existing text file:

    HTTP/1.1 204 No Content
    Content-Location: /file.txt
    ETag: "e0023aa4f"

    The 204 response code is used because the response does not
    carry a message body (which a response with the 200 code would have).
    Note that other success codes could be used as well.

    Futhermore, the ETag response header field contains the ETag for
    the entity created by applying the PATCH, available at
    http://www.example.com/file.txt, as indicated by the Content-Location
    response header field.
--- new ---

This moves part of the explanation below the response, expands on the 
Content-Location thingy and replaces "body" by "message body" (also adds 
a ":" after the subtitle).

Best regards, Julian




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Jan,

here's my proposal for the checkin/checkout issue you raised (see 
<http://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/draft-brown-versioning-link-relations-issues.html#issue.checked-out>):

1) Do not specify *how* to checkin/checkout; this really depends on the 
protocol, and might not be the same for different AtomPub stacks (and 
definitively not for WebDAV). However, the link relations that we do 
defined are supposed to be general-purpose, and to be usable outside the 
Atom space (in-line with Mark's "Web Linking" proposal).

2) For the definition of checkin/checkout and the point you raised, how 
about changing the explanation of "versioned resource" from:

"When a resource is put under version control, it becomes a "versioned 
resource". A versioned resource can be "checked out" to allow modification."

to

"When a resource is put under version control, it becomes a "versioned 
resource". Many servers protect versioned resources from modifications 
by considering them "checked in", and by requiring a "checkout" 
operation before modification, and a "checkin" operation to go back to 
the "checked-in" state. Other servers allow modification, in which case 
the checkout/checkin operation may happen implicitly."

Best regards, Julian



Julian Reschke wrote:
> 
> Hi Jan,
> 
> first of all thanks for the feedback!
> 
> Jan Algermissen wrote:
>> Julian,
>>
>> some comments on the link relation draft:
>>
>  > 2. Terminology
>>
>> It is not clear to me, what the meaning of 'check out' and 'check in'. 
> 
> Yes, we need to add text here. We originally started with the 
> definitions with RFC 3253 (WebDAV versioning), but later on decided 
> later on to just rely on generic definitions to make this work better 
> with CMIS and JCR.
> 
>> Also, the text (IMO) creates the impression that versioning can only 
>> take place when 'check out' and 'check in' are applied. However, a 
>> resource could also be versioned by the server upon any modification 
>> made by a client regardless of any 'checking out' or 'checking in'. 
>> The link relations specified would still make sense.
> 
> Indeed; and that's something that can even happen in WebDAV versioning 
> (through the various modes of auto-versioning).
> 
>> Assuming that 'checking out' and 'checking in' are operations on 
>> resources, I think the draft should address how clients achieve these 
>> operations. This would at least involve another link relation and 
>> specification how to use the linked resource to perform a checkout.
> 
> These kinds of operations are specific to the protocol in which they are 
> used, while the link relations are meant to be generic; thus I'd avoid 
> to go that way.
> 
> For now, I've added this to the issues list: 
> <http://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/draft-brown-versioning-link-relations-issues.html#issue.checked-out>. 
> I'll try to make a change proposal soonish.
> 
>> Or am I misunderstanding what the draft is trying to do?
>>
>> Appendix A
>>
>> It should be 'working-copy' instead of 'working-resource'.
> 
> Indeed. Thanks for catching this.
> 
>> I am glad to see this happening. Covers a lot of stuff that comes up 
>> in almost every project. Thanks.
> 
> That's good to hear, because defining generic link relations doesn't 
> make sense unless there are generic use cases for them :-)
> 
> Best regards, Julian
> 



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Jan Algermissen wrote:
> (Sorry if this is confusing matters, but...)
> I am not sure that the notion of a 'versioned resource' is necessary at 
> all. If the draft defined 'version' instead the whole checkin/checkout 
> notion could be dropped.

The reason for making the distinction is that in many systems, versions 
and versionable resources are different things (for instance, in JCR and 
WebDAV).

> 'Working Copy' could be defined separately as a resource that is an 
> 'private copy' of a resource, one whose URI is not made available to any 
> client except upon initial creation (sorry that this is so imprecise - I 
> hope you get the idea).

The URI of a working copy may not be private at all.

...it's really to hard to come up with terminology that is compatible 
with many different system.

> IWO, the draft somehow circles around the checkin/checkout operations 
> and I am not sure that is necessary.
> 
> (But if this sounds completely insane, just ignore it)

No, I'm listening; and hoping for more feedback...

BR, Julian


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Sam Johnston wrote:
> Julian et al,
> 
> It's probably worth taking a look at 
> draft-johnston-addressing-link-relations 
> <http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-johnston-addressing-link-relations-00> 
> as well as it defines both "current" and "latest" as well as 
> "canonical", "immutable", "mirror", "permalink" and my favourite, 
> "shortlink". This has been adopted by Wordpress, Drupal & others with a 
> view to bringing an end to third-party URL shortening services (the rust 
> of the Internet).
> 
> While I support link relations for versioning, I'd prefer to see 
> relations for generic addressing requirements consolidated in one draft.
> 
> Sam
> ...

Hi Sam,

I'm not convinced that throwing everything into a single document will 
be helpful; draft-brown-versioning-link-relations tries to focus on a 
small set of things, and, as Jan's feedback shows, it's non-trivial to 
get even those things right.

Do you have any *specific* comments with respect to the relations that 
it proposes?

Best regards, Julian


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On Nov 26, 2009, at 4:26 PM, Julian Reschke wrote:

> Jan Algermissen wrote:
>> (Sorry if this is confusing matters, but...)
>> I am not sure that the notion of a 'versioned resource' is  
>> necessary at all. If the draft defined 'version' instead the whole  
>> checkin/checkout notion could be dropped.
>
> The reason for making the distinction is that in many systems,  
> versions and versionable resources are different things (for  
> instance, in JCR and WebDAV).
>
>> 'Working Copy' could be defined separately as a resource that is an  
>> 'private copy' of a resource, one whose URI is not made available  
>> to any client except upon initial creation (sorry that this is so  
>> imprecise - I hope you get the idea).
>
> The URI of a working copy may not be private at all.
>
> ...it's really to hard to come up with terminology that is  
> compatible with many different system.

Do you have a (rough) set of use cases (IOW: client goals) that are to  
be enabled by the link relations?

Along the lines: "Client needs to find a working-copy" => link rel  
working-copy enables that

I have come to approach "hypermedia semantics" (media types, link  
relations, etc.) in terms of the goals they enable. Turning this  
around would mean: if something does not support a specific (probably  
very tiny) goal it should not be there.



Yes, versions and versionable resources can be different but is the  
distinction necessary for enabling the goals of the draft?

Stressing the point for analysis purposes:

"There is nothing a client cannot do when it does not understand the  
notion of 'versioned resource'".

Jan




>
>> IWO, the draft somehow circles around the checkin/checkout  
>> operations and I am not sure that is necessary.
>> (But if this sounds completely insane, just ignore it)
>
> No, I'm listening; and hoping for more feedback...





>
> BR, Julian

--------------------------------------
Jan Algermissen

Mail: algermissen@acm.org
Blog: http://algermissen.blogspot.com/
Home: http://www.jalgermissen.com
--------------------------------------





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I like Julian's proposed wording.  It accurately captures the two main 
alternatives: an explicit checkout/checkin required and an implicit 
checkout/checkin on write.  (Note that WebDAV/DeltaV supports both of 
these models).

Cheers,
Geoff

Julian Reschke  wrote on 11/26/2009 08:29:40 AM:
> 
> Jan,
> 
> here's my proposal for the checkin/checkout issue you raised (see 
> <http://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/draft-brown-versioning-link-
> relations-issues.html#issue.checked-out>):
> 
> 1) Do not specify *how* to checkin/checkout; this really depends on the 
> protocol, and might not be the same for different AtomPub stacks (and 
> definitively not for WebDAV). However, the link relations that we do 
> defined are supposed to be general-purpose, and to be usable outside the 

> Atom space (in-line with Mark's "Web Linking" proposal).
> 
> 2) For the definition of checkin/checkout and the point you raised, how 
> about changing the explanation of "versioned resource" from:
> 
> "When a resource is put under version control, it becomes a "versioned 
> resource". A versioned resource can be "checked out" to allow 
modification."
> 
> to
> 
> "When a resource is put under version control, it becomes a "versioned 
> resource". Many servers protect versioned resources from modifications 
> by considering them "checked in", and by requiring a "checkout" 
> operation before modification, and a "checkin" operation to go back to 
> the "checked-in" state. Other servers allow modification, in which case 
> the checkout/checkin operation may happen implicitly."
> 
> Best regards, Julian
> 
> 
> 
> Julian Reschke wrote:
> > 
> > Hi Jan,
> > 
> > first of all thanks for the feedback!
> > 
> > Jan Algermissen wrote:
> >> Julian,
> >>
> >> some comments on the link relation draft:
> >>
> >  > 2. Terminology
> >>
> >> It is not clear to me, what the meaning of 'check out' and 'check 
in'. 
> > 
> > Yes, we need to add text here. We originally started with the 
> > definitions with RFC 3253 (WebDAV versioning), but later on decided 
> > later on to just rely on generic definitions to make this work better 
> > with CMIS and JCR.
> > 
> >> Also, the text (IMO) creates the impression that versioning can only 
> >> take place when 'check out' and 'check in' are applied. However, a 
> >> resource could also be versioned by the server upon any modification 
> >> made by a client regardless of any 'checking out' or 'checking in'. 
> >> The link relations specified would still make sense.
> > 
> > Indeed; and that's something that can even happen in WebDAV versioning 

> > (through the various modes of auto-versioning).
> > 
> >> Assuming that 'checking out' and 'checking in' are operations on 
> >> resources, I think the draft should address how clients achieve these 

> >> operations. This would at least involve another link relation and 
> >> specification how to use the linked resource to perform a checkout.
> > 
> > These kinds of operations are specific to the protocol in which they 
are 
> > used, while the link relations are meant to be generic; thus I'd avoid 

> > to go that way.
> > 
> > For now, I've added this to the issues list: 
> > <http://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/draft-brown-versioning-link-
> relations-issues.html#issue.checked-out>. 
> > I'll try to make a change proposal soonish.
> > 
> >> Or am I misunderstanding what the draft is trying to do?
> >>
> >> Appendix A
> >>
> >> It should be 'working-copy' instead of 'working-resource'.
> > 
> > Indeed. Thanks for catching this.
> > 
> >> I am glad to see this happening. Covers a lot of stuff that comes up 
> >> in almost every project. Thanks.
> > 
> > That's good to hear, because defining generic link relations doesn't 
> > make sense unless there are generic use cases for them :-)
> > 
> > Best regards, Julian
> > 
> 
> 

--=_alternative 005680298525767A_=
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"


<br><tt><font size=2>I like Julian's proposed wording. &nbsp;It accurately
captures the two main alternatives: an explicit checkout/checkin required
and an implicit checkout/checkin on write. &nbsp;(Note that WebDAV/DeltaV
supports both of these models).</font></tt>
<br>
<br><tt><font size=2>Cheers,</font></tt>
<br><tt><font size=2>Geoff</font></tt>
<br>
<br><tt><font size=2>Julian Reschke &nbsp;wrote on 11/26/2009 08:29:40
AM:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Jan,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; here's my proposal for the checkin/checkout issue you raised (see
<br>
&gt; &lt;</font></tt><a href="http://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/draft-brown-versioning-link-"><tt><font size=2>http://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/draft-brown-versioning-link-</font></tt></a><tt><font size=2><br>
&gt; relations-issues.html#issue.checked-out&gt;):<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; 1) Do not specify *how* to checkin/checkout; this really depends on
the <br>
&gt; protocol, and might not be the same for different AtomPub stacks (and
<br>
&gt; definitively not for WebDAV). However, the link relations that we
do <br>
&gt; defined are supposed to be general-purpose, and to be usable outside
the <br>
&gt; Atom space (in-line with Mark's &quot;Web Linking&quot; proposal).<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; 2) For the definition of checkin/checkout and the point you raised,
how <br>
&gt; about changing the explanation of &quot;versioned resource&quot; from:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &quot;When a resource is put under version control, it becomes a &quot;versioned
<br>
&gt; resource&quot;. A versioned resource can be &quot;checked out&quot;
to allow modification.&quot;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; to<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &quot;When a resource is put under version control, it becomes a &quot;versioned
<br>
&gt; resource&quot;. Many servers protect versioned resources from modifications
<br>
&gt; by considering them &quot;checked in&quot;, and by requiring a &quot;checkout&quot;
<br>
&gt; operation before modification, and a &quot;checkin&quot; operation
to go back to <br>
&gt; the &quot;checked-in&quot; state. Other servers allow modification,
in which case <br>
&gt; the checkout/checkin operation may happen implicitly.&quot;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Best regards, Julian<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Julian Reschke wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; Hi Jan,<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; first of all thanks for the feedback!<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; Jan Algermissen wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Julian,<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; some comments on the link relation draft:<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;&gt; 2. Terminology<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; It is not clear to me, what the meaning of 'check out' and
'check in'. <br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; Yes, we need to add text here. We originally started with the
<br>
&gt; &gt; definitions with RFC 3253 (WebDAV versioning), but later on decided
<br>
&gt; &gt; later on to just rely on generic definitions to make this work
better <br>
&gt; &gt; with CMIS and JCR.<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Also, the text (IMO) creates the impression that versioning
can only <br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; take place when 'check out' and 'check in' are applied. However,
a <br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; resource could also be versioned by the server upon any modification
<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; made by a client regardless of any 'checking out' or 'checking
in'. <br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; The link relations specified would still make sense.<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; Indeed; and that's something that can even happen in WebDAV versioning
<br>
&gt; &gt; (through the various modes of auto-versioning).<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Assuming that 'checking out' and 'checking in' are operations
on <br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; resources, I think the draft should address how clients achieve
these <br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; operations. This would at least involve another link relation
and <br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; specification how to use the linked resource to perform a
checkout.<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; These kinds of operations are specific to the protocol in which
they are <br>
&gt; &gt; used, while the link relations are meant to be generic; thus
I'd avoid <br>
&gt; &gt; to go that way.<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; For now, I've added this to the issues list: <br>
&gt; &gt; &lt;</font></tt><a href="http://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/draft-brown-versioning-link-"><tt><font size=2>http://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/draft-brown-versioning-link-</font></tt></a><tt><font size=2><br>
&gt; relations-issues.html#issue.checked-out&gt;. <br>
&gt; &gt; I'll try to make a change proposal soonish.<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Or am I misunderstanding what the draft is trying to do?<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Appendix A<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; It should be 'working-copy' instead of 'working-resource'.<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; Indeed. Thanks for catching this.<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; I am glad to see this happening. Covers a lot of stuff that
comes up <br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; in almost every project. Thanks.<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; That's good to hear, because defining generic link relations
doesn't <br>
&gt; &gt; make sense unless there are generic use cases for them :-)<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; Best regards, Julian<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
</font></tt>
--=_alternative 005680298525767A_=--


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Subject: Re: Comments on Action:draft-brown-versioning-link-relations-03
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Jan Algermissen wrote:
> Do you have a (rough) set of use cases (IOW: client goals) that are to 
> be enabled by the link relations?
> 
> Along the lines: "Client needs to find a working-copy" => link rel 
> working-copy enables that

These use cases mainly come from CMIS (content management over AtomPub); 
and the main reason these aren't mentioned in the spec is that we wanted 
to avoid a circular spec reference.

See <http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/tc-announce/200910/msg00015.html>.

> ...

An alternative would be not to use the terminology around 
checkin/checkout at all. I'll give that a try.

Best regards, Julian


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Subject: Re: Comments on Action:draft-brown-versioning-link-relations-03
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Sam Johnston wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 26, 2009 at 4:30 PM, Julian Reschke <julian.reschke@gmx.de 
> <mailto:julian.reschke@gmx.de>> wrote:
> 
>     Hi Sam,
> 
>     I'm not convinced that throwing everything into a single document
>     will be helpful; draft-brown-versioning-link-relations tries to
>     focus on a small set of things, and, as Jan's feedback shows, it's
>     non-trivial to get even those things right.
> 
> 
> I'm not suggesting throwing everything in one document - just keeping 
> addressing (permalinks, shortlinks, etc.) separate from versioning. It 
> may well make more sense to drop relations from 
> draft-johnston-addressing-link-relations if they are more about 
> versioning than addressing.

OK, thanks for clarifying.

>     Do you have any *specific* comments with respect to the relations
>     that it proposes?
> 
> 
> My first thoughts were that the relations themselves could be more concise:

I don't think that it's essential to make these short names even 
shorter. The terms we currently use are in sync with some specs related 
to versioning.

>     * version-history -> versions, history or revisions
>     * latest-version -> latest
>     * working-copy -> ok
>     * predecessor-version -> predecessor or previous-version or
>       prev-version (which is it, prev or previous - I think there's some
>       ambiguity here)
>     * successor-version -> successor or next-version

I think the suffix "-version" is important because there can be many 
other similar relations providing "prex/next/last", which have nothing 
to do with versioning.

> I also wonder whether it makes sense to offer links to "native" revision 
> control (e.g. hg, git, svn, etc.) and/or web interfaces to them - and 
> then specifics like branches and tags, and what a URI/URL to a 
> branch/tag would even look like.

That's an interesting thought, but appears to be a much more complex 
problem that the one we wanted to solve here.

Best regards, Julian


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On Nov 26, 2009, at 4:51 PM, Julian Reschke wrote:

> Jan Algermissen wrote:
>> Do you have a (rough) set of use cases (IOW: client goals) that are  
>> to be enabled by the link relations?
>> Along the lines: "Client needs to find a working-copy" => link rel  
>> working-copy enables that
>
> These use cases mainly come from CMIS (content management over  
> AtomPub); and the main reason these aren't mentioned in the spec is  
> that we wanted to avoid a circular spec reference.
>
> See <http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/tc-announce/200910/msg00015.html 
> >.
>
>> ...
>
> An alternative would be not to use the terminology around checkin/ 
> checkout at all. I'll give that a try.

Reading your reference, I think that the important semantic is that  
updating a working-copy does not produce a version, IOW, that, in  
order to create a new version from a working-draft the draft must be  
checked in. Hence, the notion of check-in is definitely necessary.

The actual operation is othogonal (could be a CHECK-IN method or a  
standard HTTP 1.1 request to a resource that has the appropriate  
semantics) but the general notion is fundamental to the idea of a  
working-copy.

check-out I think could be dropped because when I know that something  
is a working-copy it is by definition checked out.
... well then, the notion of check-in implies the notion of check-out,  
so both are a vital part in the end.


Jan


>
> Best regards, Julian

--------------------------------------
Jan Algermissen

Mail: algermissen@acm.org
Blog: http://algermissen.blogspot.com/
Home: http://www.jalgermissen.com
--------------------------------------





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To: Julian Reschke <julian.reschke@gmx.de>
Cc: Jan Algermissen <algermissen1971@mac.com>, "Atom-syntax Syntax'" <atom-syntax@imc.org>, Sam Johnston <samj@samj.net>, WebDAV <w3c-dist-auth@w3.org>, w3c-dist-auth-request@w3.org
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This is a multipart message in MIME format.
--=_alternative 0058C78A8525767A_=
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Yes, once one goes to more advanced features (like branches and tags), it 
becomes harder to find or agree on common link types.
Note that RFC-3253 defines a full versioning protocol, including branches 
(called "activities") and tags (called "baselines).

Cheers,
Geoff

Julian Reschke wrote on 11/26/2009 10:58:37 AM:
> Sam Johnston wrote:
>  ...
> > I also wonder whether it makes sense to offer links to "native" 
revision 
> > control (e.g. hg, git, svn, etc.) and/or web interfaces to them - and 
> > then specifics like branches and tags, and what a URI/URL to a 
> > branch/tag would even look like.
> 
> That's an interesting thought, but appears to be a much more complex 
> problem that the one we wanted to solve here.
> 
> Best regards, Julian
> 

--=_alternative 0058C78A8525767A_=
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"


<br><tt><font size=2>Yes, once one goes to more advanced features (like
branches and tags), it becomes harder to find or agree on common link types.</font></tt>
<br><tt><font size=2>Note that RFC-3253 defines a full versioning protocol,
including branches (called &quot;activities&quot;) and tags (called &quot;baselines).</font></tt>
<br>
<br><tt><font size=2>Cheers,</font></tt>
<br><tt><font size=2>Geoff</font></tt>
<br>
<br><tt><font size=2>Julian Reschke wrote on 11/26/2009 10:58:37 AM:<br>
&gt; Sam Johnston wrote:<br>
&gt; &nbsp;...<br>
&gt; &gt; I also wonder whether it makes sense to offer links to &quot;native&quot;
revision <br>
&gt; &gt; control (e.g. hg, git, svn, etc.) and/or web interfaces to them
- and <br>
&gt; &gt; then specifics like branches and tags, and what a URI/URL to
a <br>
&gt; &gt; branch/tag would even look like.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; That's an interesting thought, but appears to be a much more complex
<br>
&gt; problem that the one we wanted to solve here.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Best regards, Julian<br>
&gt; <br>
</font></tt>
--=_alternative 0058C78A8525767A_=--


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On Nov 26, 2009, at 2:29 PM, Julian Reschke wrote:

>
> "When a resource is put under version control, it becomes a  
> "versioned resource". Many servers protect versioned resources from  
> modifications by considering them "checked in", and by requiring a  
> "checkout" operation before modification, and a "checkin" operation  
> to go back to the "checked-in" state. Other servers allow  
> modification, in which case the checkout/checkin operation may  
> happen implicitly."
>

> When a resource is put under version control, it becomes a  
> "versioned resource". Many servers protect versioned resources from  
> modifications by considering them "checked in", and by requiring a  
> "checkout" operation before modification, and a "checkin" operation  
> to go back to the "checked-in" state. Other servers allow  
> modification and perfrom versioning without requiring an explicit  
> checkout operation.


I feel there should be the notion of 'modification of checked-out  
working copy' in there but I don't mean to say that your above wording  
isn't suitable also.

Jan


> Best regards, Julian
>
>
>
> Julian Reschke wrote:
>> Hi Jan,
>> first of all thanks for the feedback!
>> Jan Algermissen wrote:
>>> Julian,
>>>
>>> some comments on the link relation draft:
>>>
>> > 2. Terminology
>>>
>>> It is not clear to me, what the meaning of 'check out' and 'check  
>>> in'.
>> Yes, we need to add text here. We originally started with the  
>> definitions with RFC 3253 (WebDAV versioning), but later on decided  
>> later on to just rely on generic definitions to make this work  
>> better with CMIS and JCR.
>>> Also, the text (IMO) creates the impression that versioning can  
>>> only take place when 'check out' and 'check in' are applied.  
>>> However, a resource could also be versioned by the server upon any  
>>> modification made by a client regardless of any 'checking out' or  
>>> 'checking in'. The link relations specified would still make sense.
>> Indeed; and that's something that can even happen in WebDAV  
>> versioning (through the various modes of auto-versioning).
>>> Assuming that 'checking out' and 'checking in' are operations on  
>>> resources, I think the draft should address how clients achieve  
>>> these operations. This would at least involve another link  
>>> relation and specification how to use the linked resource to  
>>> perform a checkout.
>> These kinds of operations are specific to the protocol in which  
>> they are used, while the link relations are meant to be generic;  
>> thus I'd avoid to go that way.
>> For now, I've added this to the issues list: <http://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/draft-brown-versioning-link-relations-issues.html#issue.checked-out 
>> >. I'll try to make a change proposal soonish.
>>> Or am I misunderstanding what the draft is trying to do?
>>>
>>> Appendix A
>>>
>>> It should be 'working-copy' instead of 'working-resource'.
>> Indeed. Thanks for catching this.
>>> I am glad to see this happening. Covers a lot of stuff that comes  
>>> up in almost every project. Thanks.
>> That's good to hear, because defining generic link relations  
>> doesn't make sense unless there are generic use cases for them :-)
>> Best regards, Julian
>

--------------------------------------
Jan Algermissen

Mail: algermissen@acm.org
Blog: http://algermissen.blogspot.com/
Home: http://www.jalgermissen.com
--------------------------------------





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On Nov 26, 2009, at 5:21 PM, Jan Algermissen wrote:

>
> On Nov 26, 2009, at 2:29 PM, Julian Reschke wrote:
>
>>
>> "When a resource is put under version control, it becomes a  
>> "versioned resource". Many servers protect versioned resources from  
>> modifications by considering them "checked in", and by requiring a  
>> "checkout" operation before modification, and a "checkin" operation  
>> to go back to the "checked-in" state. Other servers allow  
>> modification, in which case the checkout/checkin operation may  
>> happen implicitly."
>>
>


Forgot to insert:

What about:


>> When a resource is put under version control, it becomes a  
>> "versioned resource". Many servers protect versioned resources from  
>> modifications by considering them "checked in", and by requiring a  
>> "checkout" operation before modification, and a "checkin" operation  
>> to go back to the "checked-in" state. Other servers allow  
>> modification and perfrom versioning without requiring an explicit  
>> checkout operation.
>
>
> I feel there should be the notion of 'modification of checked-out  
> working copy' in there but I don't mean to say that your above  
> wording isn't suitable also.
>
> Jan
>


Sorry,
Jan




>
>> Best regards, Julian
>>
>>
>>
>> Julian Reschke wrote:
>>> Hi Jan,
>>> first of all thanks for the feedback!
>>> Jan Algermissen wrote:
>>>> Julian,
>>>>
>>>> some comments on the link relation draft:
>>>>
>>> > 2. Terminology
>>>>
>>>> It is not clear to me, what the meaning of 'check out' and 'check  
>>>> in'.
>>> Yes, we need to add text here. We originally started with the  
>>> definitions with RFC 3253 (WebDAV versioning), but later on  
>>> decided later on to just rely on generic definitions to make this  
>>> work better with CMIS and JCR.
>>>> Also, the text (IMO) creates the impression that versioning can  
>>>> only take place when 'check out' and 'check in' are applied.  
>>>> However, a resource could also be versioned by the server upon  
>>>> any modification made by a client regardless of any 'checking  
>>>> out' or 'checking in'. The link relations specified would still  
>>>> make sense.
>>> Indeed; and that's something that can even happen in WebDAV  
>>> versioning (through the various modes of auto-versioning).
>>>> Assuming that 'checking out' and 'checking in' are operations on  
>>>> resources, I think the draft should address how clients achieve  
>>>> these operations. This would at least involve another link  
>>>> relation and specification how to use the linked resource to  
>>>> perform a checkout.
>>> These kinds of operations are specific to the protocol in which  
>>> they are used, while the link relations are meant to be generic;  
>>> thus I'd avoid to go that way.
>>> For now, I've added this to the issues list: <http://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/draft-brown-versioning-link-relations-issues.html#issue.checked-out 
>>> >. I'll try to make a change proposal soonish.
>>>> Or am I misunderstanding what the draft is trying to do?
>>>>
>>>> Appendix A
>>>>
>>>> It should be 'working-copy' instead of 'working-resource'.
>>> Indeed. Thanks for catching this.
>>>> I am glad to see this happening. Covers a lot of stuff that comes  
>>>> up in almost every project. Thanks.
>>> That's good to hear, because defining generic link relations  
>>> doesn't make sense unless there are generic use cases for them :-)
>>> Best regards, Julian
>>
>
> --------------------------------------
> Jan Algermissen
>
> Mail: algermissen@acm.org
> Blog: http://algermissen.blogspot.com/
> Home: http://www.jalgermissen.com
> --------------------------------------
>
>
>
>

--------------------------------------
Jan Algermissen

Mail: algermissen@acm.org
Blog: http://algermissen.blogspot.com/
Home: http://www.jalgermissen.com
--------------------------------------





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Jan Algermissen wrote:
> 
> On Nov 26, 2009, at 2:29 PM, Julian Reschke wrote:
> 
>>
>> "When a resource is put under version control, it becomes a "versioned 
>> resource". Many servers protect versioned resources from modifications 
>> by considering them "checked in", and by requiring a "checkout" 
>> operation before modification, and a "checkin" operation to go back to 
>> the "checked-in" state. Other servers allow modification, in which 
>> case the checkout/checkin operation may happen implicitly."
>>
> 
>> When a resource is put under version control, it becomes a "versioned 
>> resource". Many servers protect versioned resources from modifications 
>> by considering them "checked in", and by requiring a "checkout" 
>> operation before modification, and a "checkin" operation to go back to 
>> the "checked-in" state. Other servers allow modification and perfrom 
>> versioning without requiring an explicit checkout operation.
> 
> 
> I feel there should be the notion of 'modification of checked-out 
> working copy' in there but I don't mean to say that your above wording 
> isn't suitable also.
> ...

For now I have applied my change proposal in 
<http://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/draft-brown-versioning-link-relations-latest.html#rfc.section.2>, 
but that doesn't mean we can't spend some more time with wordsmithing :-)

BR, Julian


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Jan Algermissen wrote:
> Forgot to insert:
> 
> What about:
> 
> 
>>> When a resource is put under version control, it becomes a "versioned 
>>> resource". Many servers protect versioned resources from 
>>> modifications by considering them "checked in", and by requiring a 
>>> "checkout" operation before modification, and a "checkin" operation 
>>> to go back to the "checked-in" state. Other servers allow 
>>> modification and perfrom versioning without requiring an explicit 
>>> checkout operation.
>>
>>
>> I feel there should be the notion of 'modification of checked-out 
>> working copy' in there but I don't mean to say that your above wording 
>> isn't suitable also.
>>
>> Jan
 >> ...

Hi Jan,

if I understand you correctly you say that the proposed text explaining 
checkin/checkout should mention that it applies to modifying the working 
copy. I believe that's correct, but would require a forward reference to 
the term "working copy" that I'd like to avoid. (If you meant to say 
something else, please clarify).

With respect to replacing

"Other servers allow modification, in which case the checkout/checkin 
operation may happen implicitly."

by

"Other servers allow modification and perform versioning without 
requiring an explicit checkout operation."

...: this really seems to be equivalent; any particular reason why you 
feel your text is clearer?

Best regards, Julian






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Julian,

On Nov 27, 2009, at 3:56 PM, Julian Reschke wrote:

> Jan Algermissen wrote:
>> Forgot to insert:
>> What about:
>>>> When a resource is put under version control, it becomes a  
>>>> "versioned resource". Many servers protect versioned resources  
>>>> from modifications by considering them "checked in", and by  
>>>> requiring a "checkout" operation before modification, and a  
>>>> "checkin" operation to go back to the "checked-in" state. Other  
>>>> servers allow modification and perfrom versioning without  
>>>> requiring an explicit checkout operation.
>>>
>>>
>>> I feel there should be the notion of 'modification of checked-out  
>>> working copy' in there but I don't mean to say that your above  
>>> wording isn't suitable also.
>>>
>>> Jan
> >> ...
>
> Hi Jan,
>
> if I understand you correctly you say that the proposed text  
> explaining checkin/checkout should mention that it applies to  
> modifying the working copy.

What I tried to say is that the notion of working-copy goes hand in  
hand with the notion of checking out. Or, to view it from a different  
angle: when a server is versioning, it can do so either implicitly (on  
its own) upon a modification of the resource that is being versioned  
by the server or it can require the user to do it explicitly by  
cheking out->working copy->update working copy->check-in. Without a  
notion of check-in the working-copy notion is useless because it will  
never lead to a new version.


> I believe that's correct, but would require a forward reference to  
> the term "working copy" that I'd like to avoid. (If you meant to say  
> something else, please clarify).
>

I think the notion of versioning is orthogonal to the notion of  
checkout/checkin and the draft seems to be centered around it. If a  
resource is being versioned by the server, all relations make sense,  
except working-copy. Only for working-copy you need to introduce  
checkin/checkout. It is just another means putting the versioning  
'action' in the hands of the client.

(But please takte this only as input - the draft just triggered an  
analysis process and that keeps going :-)
I cannot judge if it is significant enough to justify work on the  
draft or even this exchange...


> With respect to replacing
>
> "Other servers allow modification, in which case the checkout/ 
> checkin operation may happen implicitly."
>
> by
>
> "Other servers allow modification and perform versioning without  
> requiring an explicit checkout operation."
>
> ...: this really seems to be equivalent; any particular reason why  
> you feel your text is clearer?
>

The latter IMHO takes the focus away from checkin/checkout which I see  
as an absolute edge-case (being non DAV and
non CMIS biased :-)

But then....word smithing I guess.

Jan


> Best regards, Julian
>
>
>
>
>

--------------------------------------
Jan Algermissen

Mail: algermissen@acm.org
Blog: http://algermissen.blogspot.com/
Home: http://www.jalgermissen.com
--------------------------------------





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From webdav-archive@lists.ietf.org  Fri Nov 27 10:05:02 2009
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From webdav-archive@megatron.ietf.org  Fri Nov 27 10:05:15 2009
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Note that versioning servers without working copies often still require a 
checkout/checkin protocol.
The "checkout" method is used as a notification to other users that this 
client is working on that resource.
The "checkin" method is used to tell the server "I want you to create a 
new version with the current content" (while a PUT just updates the 
current content without creating a new version).

Cheers,
Geoff

Jan Algermissen wrote on 11/27/2009 12:13:27 PM:

...
> I think the notion of versioning is orthogonal to the notion of 
> checkout/checkin and the draft seems to be centered around it. If a 
> resource is being versioned by the server, all relations make sense, 
> except working-copy. Only for working-copy you need to introduce 
> checkin/checkout. It is just another means putting the versioning 
> 'action' in the hands of the client.
> 
> (But please takte this only as input - the draft just triggered an 
> analysis process and that keeps going :-)
> I cannot judge if it is significant enough to justify work on the 
> draft or even this exchange...
> 


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<br><tt><font size=2>Note that versioning servers without working copies
often still require a checkout/checkin protocol.</font></tt>
<br><tt><font size=2>The &quot;checkout&quot; method is used as a notification
to other users that this client is working on that resource.</font></tt>
<br><tt><font size=2>The &quot;checkin&quot; method is used to tell the
server &quot;I want you to create a new version with the current content&quot;
(while a PUT just updates the current content without creating a new version).</font></tt>
<br>
<br><tt><font size=2>Cheers,</font></tt>
<br><tt><font size=2>Geoff</font></tt>
<br>
<br><tt><font size=2>Jan Algermissen wrote on 11/27/2009 12:13:27 PM:<br>
<br>
...<br>
&gt; I think the notion of versioning is orthogonal to the notion of &nbsp;<br>
&gt; checkout/checkin and the draft seems to be centered around it. If
a &nbsp;<br>
&gt; resource is being versioned by the server, all relations make sense,
&nbsp;<br>
&gt; except working-copy. Only for working-copy you need to introduce &nbsp;<br>
&gt; checkin/checkout. It is just another means putting the versioning
&nbsp;<br>
&gt; 'action' in the hands of the client.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; (But please takte this only as input - the draft just triggered an
&nbsp;<br>
&gt; analysis process and that keeps going :-)<br>
&gt; I cannot judge if it is significant enough to justify work on the
&nbsp;<br>
&gt; draft or even this exchange...<br>
&gt; <br>
<br>
</font></tt>
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On Nov 28, 2009, at 6:19 AM, Geoffrey M Clemm wrote:

>
> Note that versioning servers without working copies often still  
> require a checkout/checkin protocol.
> The "checkout" method is used as a notification to other users that  
> this client is working on that resource.
> The "checkin" method is used to tell the server "I want you to  
> create a new version with the current content" (while a PUT just  
> updates the current content without creating a new version).

In this case, checkout/checkin is also orthogonal to the notion of  
versioning and would not need to be mentioned in the spec. IOW, the  
only reason mentioning checkin/checkout in the spec is because the  
definition of working copy depends on it.

Jan


>
> Cheers,
> Geoff
>
> Jan Algermissen wrote on 11/27/2009 12:13:27 PM:
>
> ...
> > I think the notion of versioning is orthogonal to the notion of
> > checkout/checkin and the draft seems to be centered around it. If a
> > resource is being versioned by the server, all relations make sense,
> > except working-copy. Only for working-copy you need to introduce
> > checkin/checkout. It is just another means putting the versioning
> > 'action' in the hands of the client.
> >
> > (But please takte this only as input - the draft just triggered an
> > analysis process and that keeps going :-)
> > I cannot judge if it is significant enough to justify work on the
> > draft or even this exchange...
> >
>

--------------------------------------
Jan Algermissen

Mail: algermissen@acm.org
Blog: http://algermissen.blogspot.com/
Home: http://www.jalgermissen.com
--------------------------------------





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Jan Algermissen wrote:
> 
> On Nov 28, 2009, at 6:19 AM, Geoffrey M Clemm wrote:
> 
>>
>> Note that versioning servers without working copies often still 
>> require a checkout/checkin protocol.
>> The "checkout" method is used as a notification to other users that 
>> this client is working on that resource.
>> The "checkin" method is used to tell the server "I want you to create 
>> a new version with the current content" (while a PUT just updates the 
>> current content without creating a new version).
> 
> In this case, checkout/checkin is also orthogonal to the notion of 
> versioning and would not need to be mentioned in the spec. IOW, the only 
> reason mentioning checkin/checkout in the spec is because the definition 
> of working copy depends on it.
> ...

Does it?

"A "working copy" is a resource at a server-defined URL that can be 
modified to create a new version of a versioned resource."

Best regards, Julian


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On Nov 30, 2009, at 1:02 PM, Julian Reschke wrote:

> Jan Algermissen wrote:
>> On Nov 28, 2009, at 6:19 AM, Geoffrey M Clemm wrote:
>>>
>>> Note that versioning servers without working copies often still  
>>> require a checkout/checkin protocol.
>>> The "checkout" method is used as a notification to other users  
>>> that this client is working on that resource.
>>> The "checkin" method is used to tell the server "I want you to  
>>> create a new version with the current content" (while a PUT just  
>>> updates the current content without creating a new version).
>> In this case, checkout/checkin is also orthogonal to the notion of  
>> versioning and would not need to be mentioned in the spec. IOW, the  
>> only reason mentioning checkin/checkout in the spec is because the  
>> definition of working copy depends on it.
>> ...
>
> Does it?
>
> "A "working copy" is a resource at a server-defined URL that can be  
> modified to create a new version of a versioned resource."
>

So it might be enough to:

PUT /working-copies/667

<foo/>

to create a new version of /main/667 ?? (assuming that /main/667 -- 
working-copy--> /working-copies/667)

What would be the reason to have a working copy that needs not be  
checked-in?

Jan






> Best regards, Julian

--------------------------------------
Jan Algermissen

Mail: algermissen@acm.org
Blog: http://algermissen.blogspot.com/
Home: http://www.jalgermissen.com
--------------------------------------





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To: Jan Algermissen <algermissen1971@mac.com>
CC: Geoffrey M Clemm <geoffrey.clemm@us.ibm.com>,  Atom-syntax Syntax' <atom-syntax@imc.org>, WebDAV <w3c-dist-auth@w3.org>, w3c-dist-auth-request@w3.org
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Subject: Re: Comments on Action:draft-brown-versioning-link-relations-03
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Jan Algermissen wrote:
>> Does it?
>>
>> "A "working copy" is a resource at a server-defined URL that can be 
>> modified to create a new version of a versioned resource."
>>
> 
> So it might be enough to:
> 
> PUT /working-copies/667
> 
> <foo/>
> 
> to create a new version of /main/667 ?? (assuming that /main/667 
> --working-copy--> /working-copies/667)
> 
> What would be the reason to have a working copy that needs not be 
> checked-in?

That's not what I intended to say; I was just pointing out that the 
current definition in the spec does not refer to checkin/checkout (maybe 
it should?).

BR, Julian


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To: Jan Algermissen <algermissen1971@mac.com>
Cc: "Atom-syntax Syntax'" <atom-syntax@imc.org>, Julian Reschke <julian.reschke@gmx.de>, WebDAV <w3c-dist-auth@w3.org>, w3c-dist-auth-request@w3.org
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Many (possibly, most) versioning servers provide the ability for a client 
to store on the server working drafts of the working resource, before 
committing it as a publicly visible next version.  So a PUT to the working 
resource just updates the content of the (private) working resource.  A 
separate operation (checkin) commits the current content (or the content 
included with the CHECKIN operation).

Cheers,
Geoff

Jan Algermissen <algermissen1971@mac.com> wrote on 11/30/2009 07:56:57 AM:
> Geoffrey M Clemm, "Atom-syntax Syntax'", WebDAV, w3c-dist-auth-request
> 
> 
> On Nov 30, 2009, at 1:02 PM, Julian Reschke wrote:
> 
> > Jan Algermissen wrote:
> >> On Nov 28, 2009, at 6:19 AM, Geoffrey M Clemm wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Note that versioning servers without working copies often still 
> >>> require a checkout/checkin protocol.
> >>> The "checkout" method is used as a notification to other users 
> >>> that this client is working on that resource.
> >>> The "checkin" method is used to tell the server "I want you to 
> >>> create a new version with the current content" (while a PUT just 
> >>> updates the current content without creating a new version).
> >> In this case, checkout/checkin is also orthogonal to the notion of 
> >> versioning and would not need to be mentioned in the spec. IOW, the 
> >> only reason mentioning checkin/checkout in the spec is because the 
> >> definition of working copy depends on it.
> >> ...
> >
> > Does it?
> >
> > "A "working copy" is a resource at a server-defined URL that can be 
> > modified to create a new version of a versioned resource."
> >
> 
> So it might be enough to:
> 
> PUT /working-copies/667
> 
> <foo/>
> 
> to create a new version of /main/667 ?? (assuming that /main/667 -- 
> working-copy--> /working-copies/667)
> 
> What would be the reason to have a working copy that needs not be 
> checked-in?


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<br><tt><font size=2>Many (possibly, most) versioning servers provide the
ability for a client to store on the server working drafts of the working
resource, before committing it as a publicly visible next version. &nbsp;So
a PUT to the working resource just updates the content of the (private)
working resource. &nbsp;A separate operation (checkin) commits the current
content (or the content included with the CHECKIN operation).</font></tt>
<br>
<br><tt><font size=2>Cheers,</font></tt>
<br><tt><font size=2>Geoff</font></tt>
<br>
<br><tt><font size=2>Jan Algermissen &lt;algermissen1971@mac.com&gt; wrote
on 11/30/2009 07:56:57 AM:<br>
&gt; Geoffrey M Clemm, &quot;Atom-syntax Syntax'&quot;, WebDAV, w3c-dist-auth-request</font></tt>
<br><tt><font size=2>&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; On Nov 30, 2009, at 1:02 PM, Julian Reschke wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; Jan Algermissen wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; On Nov 28, 2009, at 6:19 AM, Geoffrey M Clemm wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Note that versioning servers without working copies often
still &nbsp;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; require a checkout/checkin protocol.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; The &quot;checkout&quot; method is used as a notification
to other users &nbsp;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; that this client is working on that resource.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; The &quot;checkin&quot; method is used to tell the server
&quot;I want you to &nbsp;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; create a new version with the current content&quot; (while
a PUT just &nbsp;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; updates the current content without creating a new version).<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; In this case, checkout/checkin is also orthogonal to the
notion of &nbsp;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; versioning and would not need to be mentioned in the spec.
IOW, the &nbsp;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; only reason mentioning checkin/checkout in the spec is because
the &nbsp;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; definition of working copy depends on it.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; ...<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Does it?<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &quot;A &quot;working copy&quot; is a resource at a server-defined
URL that can be &nbsp;<br>
&gt; &gt; modified to create a new version of a versioned resource.&quot;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; So it might be enough to:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; PUT /working-copies/667<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &lt;foo/&gt;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; to create a new version of /main/667 ?? (assuming that /main/667 --
<br>
&gt; working-copy--&gt; /working-copies/667)<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; What would be the reason to have a working copy that needs not be
&nbsp;<br>
&gt; checked-in?<br>
<br>
</font></tt>
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From: Jan Algermissen <algermissen1971@mac.com>
To: Julian Reschke <julian.reschke@gmx.de>
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On Nov 30, 2009, at 5:06 PM, Julian Reschke wrote:

> Jan Algermissen wrote:
>>> Does it?
>>>
>>> "A "working copy" is a resource at a server-defined URL that can  
>>> be modified to create a new version of a versioned resource."
>>>
>> So it might be enough to:
>> PUT /working-copies/667
>> <foo/>
>> to create a new version of /main/667 ?? (assuming that /main/667 -- 
>> working-copy--> /working-copies/667)
>> What would be the reason to have a working copy that needs not be  
>> checked-in?
>
> That's not what I intended to say; I was just pointing out that the  
> current definition in the spec does not refer to checkin/checkout  
> (maybe it should?).

Hmm, I think so. The definition in a sense implies that the version is  
created as a result of the modification. Which is IMHO *never* the  
case for working copies.

Surely the draft must define 'working copy'. What is the nature of a  
working copy? What is its true nature? I think: being *used* for  
creating new versions. So, what about:

>>> "A "working copy" is a resource at a server-defined URL that can  
>>> be *used* to create a new version of a versioned resource."

and remove checkout/checkin completely. ('use' instead of 'modify'  
sounds less like "The modification cause the versioning" (which it  
never does by nature of a working copy (IMHO - s.a.))

If the draft wanted to define it, then it woud be something like:

checkout: an operation on a resource that creates a working copy
checkin: an operation on a working copy that creates a new version of  
its corresponding versioned resource.

Jan



>
> BR, Julian

--------------------------------------
Jan Algermissen

Mail: algermissen@acm.org
Blog: http://algermissen.blogspot.com/
Home: http://www.jalgermissen.com
--------------------------------------





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