
From nobody Mon May  4 05:46:48 2020
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From: Robert Moskowitz <rgm@htt-consult.com>
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Subject: [xml2rfc] How to put 2 organizations in Address block
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I have an author with 2 organizations.  xml2rfc with not allow two 
<organization> blocks.  Putting them comma separated looks bad:

                                                               A. Gurtov
              Linköping University, Swedish Civil Aviation Administration


I would like them to be on separate lines:

                                                               A. Gurtov
             Linköping University
                                                Swedish Civil Aviation 
Administration


How can I do that?

thanks



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From nobody Mon May  4 21:09:26 2020
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Subject: [xml2rfc] itu-t ref
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dear lazynet,

i am trying to gen the xml for an older rfc.  the conver at
https://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org/index.html#id2xml produced xml that a few
hours could turn into xml readable by both xml2rfc and me and other
humans.  whew!

but how to i generate the reference for

 [X.690]   ITU-T Recommendation X.690 (2002) | ISO/IEC 8825-1:2002,
           Information technology - ASN.1 encoding rules:
           Specification of Basic Encoding Rules (BER), Canonical
           Encoding Rules (CER) and Distinguished Encoding Rules
           (DER).

thanks

randy


From nobody Mon May  4 21:13:05 2020
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> i am trying to gen the xml for an older rfc.  the conver at
> https://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org/index.html#id2xml produced xml that a
> few hours could turn into xml readable by both xml2rfc and me and
> other humans.  whew!

btw, i think it is a miracle that i could

   rfc.txt -->  xml  -->  xml2rfc  -->  draft.txt

and the diff between the rfc and the draft was white space

kudus!

randy


From nobody Mon May  4 21:40:58 2020
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bibxml2/reference.CCITT.X690.2002.xml

references this, but doesn=E2=80=99t have the double title with ITU-T =
and ISO/IEC numbers.

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


> On 2020-05-05, at 06:08, Randy Bush <randy@psg.com> wrote:
>=20
> but how to i generate the reference for
>=20
> [X.690]   ITU-T Recommendation X.690 (2002) | ISO/IEC 8825-1:2002,
>           Information technology - ASN.1 encoding rules:
>           Specification of Basic Encoding Rules (BER), Canonical
>           Encoding Rules (CER) and Distinguished Encoding Rules
>           (DER).
>=20
> thanks


Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten

<?xml version=3D"1.0"?>

<reference anchor=3D"CCITT.X690.2002">
<front>
<title>ASN.1 encoding rules: Specification of basic encoding Rules =
(BER), Canonical encoding rules (CER) and Distinguished encoding rules =
(DER)</title>
<author>
<organization>International International Telephone and Telegraph
Consultative Committee</organization>
</author>
<date month=3D"July" year=3D"2002" />
</front>

<seriesInfo name=3D"CCITT" value=3D"Recommendation X.690" />

</reference>


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References: <m2r1vznhvd.wl-randy@psg.com> <m2pnbjnhob.wl-randy@psg.com>
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On 2020-05-05 06:12, Randy Bush wrote:
>> i am trying to gen the xml for an older rfc.  the conver at
>> https://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org/index.html#id2xml produced xml that a
>> few hours could turn into xml readable by both xml2rfc and me and
>> other humans.  whew!
>=20
> btw, i think it is a miracle that i could
>=20
>    rfc.txt -->  xml  -->  xml2rfc  -->  draft.txt
>=20
> and the diff between the rfc and the draft was white space
>=20
> kudus!

:-)

	Henrik


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On 2020-05-05, at 06:40, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> wrote:
>=20
> International International

OK, so maybe we want to get bibxml2/reference.CCITT.X690.2002.xml fixed =
(and we could add the missing parts of the title as well).

I must admit I don=E2=80=99t know who to talk to on the need for a fix.

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


From nobody Tue May  5 07:49:40 2020
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Subject: [xml2rfc] referencing an old ID as expired
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I want to reference an old ID for various reasons.  The ID is expired 
and no xml.  So I created my own ref section:

<reference anchor="draft.moskowitz-hip-arch-02">
<front>
     <title>Host Identity Payload</title>
     <author initials="R" surname="Moskowitz" fullname="Robert Moskowitz">
     <organization/>
     </author>
     <date month="February" day="22" year="2001"/>
     <abstract>
     <t>
     This memo describes the reasoning behind proposing a new namespace, 
the Host Identity, and a payload, between the Internetworking and 
Transport layers, the Host layer, to carry this identity.  Herein is 
presented the basics of the current namespaces, strengths and 
weaknesses, and how a new namespace will add completeness to them. This 
new namespace's roles in the protocols are defined.
     </t>
     </abstract>
</front>
<seriesInfo name="Internet-Draft" value="draft-moskowitz-hip-arch-02"/>
<format type="TXT" 
target="http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-moskowitz-hip-arch-02.txt"/>
</reference>

And got:

    [draft.moskowitz-hip-arch-02]
               Moskowitz, R., "Host Identity Payload", Work in Progress,
               Internet-Draft, draft-moskowitz-hip-arch-02, 22 February
               2001,
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-moskowitz-hip-arch-02>.


How do I change this from "Work in Progress" to "Expired"?

thanks


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To: Robert Moskowitz <rgm@htt-consult.com>, "xml2rfc@ietf.org" <xml2rfc@ietf.org>
References: <781a50a7-5faa-1043-56b2-f52b5ac91a80@htt-consult.com>
From: Julian Reschke <julian.reschke@gmx.de>
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Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 17:12:25 +0200
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/xml2rfc/hdr1TAnUmr6lCgd-1o7BHNMtrtQ>
Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] referencing an old ID as expired
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On 05.05.2020 16:49, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
> I want to reference an old ID for various reasons.=C2=A0 The ID is expir=
ed
> and no xml.=C2=A0 So I created my own ref section:
>
> <reference anchor=3D"draft.moskowitz-hip-arch-02">
> <front>
>  =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <title>Host Identity Payload</title>
>  =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <author initials=3D"R" surname=3D"Moskowitz" fullnam=
e=3D"Robert Moskowitz">
>  =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <organization/>
>  =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </author>
>  =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <date month=3D"February" day=3D"22" year=3D"2001"/>
>  =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <abstract>
>  =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <t>
>  =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 This memo describes the reasoning behind proposing a=
 new namespace,
> the Host Identity, and a payload, between the Internetworking and
> Transport layers, the Host layer, to carry this identity.=C2=A0 Herein i=
s
> presented the basics of the current namespaces, strengths and
> weaknesses, and how a new namespace will add completeness to them. This
> new namespace's roles in the protocols are defined.
>  =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </t>
>  =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </abstract>
> </front>
> <seriesInfo name=3D"Internet-Draft" value=3D"draft-moskowitz-hip-arch-02=
"/>
> <format type=3D"TXT"
> target=3D"http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-moskowitz-hip-arch-0=
2.txt"/>

There's no point in adding the <format> element. It doesn't do anything.

> </reference>
>
> And got:
>
>  =C2=A0=C2=A0 [draft.moskowitz-hip-arch-02]
>  =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 Moskowitz, R., "Host Identity Payload", Work in Progress,
>  =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 Internet-Draft, draft-moskowitz-hip-arch-02, 22 February
>  =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 2001,
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-moskowitz-hip-arch-02>.
>
>
> How do I change this from "Work in Progress" to "Expired"?

The RFC Style Guide requires that internet drafts are cited as "work in
progress", so this is what the formatter inserts automatically.

If you want to avoid that, you can't use the seriesinfo name attribute
of "Internet-Draft". This

   <seriesInfo name=3D"expired Internet-Draft"
value=3D"draft-moskowitz-hip-arch-02"/>

might roughly do what you want.

(And if it does, you'll have to supply the URI in the reference's target
attribute manually)


Best regards, Julian

PS: if this document gets into AUTH48, you may have to back this out :-)-

PPS: and yes, this is bad. We had a whole committee discussing
references to internet drafts 10 years ago and couldn't fix that.


From nobody Tue May  5 08:56:35 2020
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Date: Tue, 05 May 2020 08:56:27 -0700
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From: Randy Bush <randy@psg.com>
To: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
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Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] itu-t ref
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> <?xml version="1.0"?>
> 
> <reference anchor="CCITT.X690.2002">
> <front>
> <title>ASN.1 encoding rules: Specification of basic encoding Rules (BER), Canonical encoding rules (CER) and Distinguished encoding rules (DER)</title>
> <author>
> <organization>International International Telephone and Telegraph
> Consultative Committee</organization>
> </author>
> <date month="July" year="2002" />
> </front>
> 
> <seriesInfo name="CCITT" value="Recommendation X.690" />
> 
> </reference>

thanks!!!

randy


From nobody Tue May  5 09:31:35 2020
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To: Julian Reschke <julian.reschke@gmx.de>, "xml2rfc@ietf.org" <xml2rfc@ietf.org>
References: <781a50a7-5faa-1043-56b2-f52b5ac91a80@htt-consult.com> <0ba7aad8-05c2-ad91-9c36-20d58ad5c082@gmx.de>
From: Robert Moskowitz <rgm@htt-consult.com>
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Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] referencing an old ID as expired
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Julian,

On 5/5/20 11:12 AM, Julian Reschke wrote:
> On 05.05.2020 16:49, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
>> I want to reference an old ID for various reasons.  The ID is expired
>> and no xml.  So I created my own ref section:
>>
>> <reference anchor="draft.moskowitz-hip-arch-02">
>> <front>
>>      <title>Host Identity Payload</title>
>>      <author initials="R" surname="Moskowitz" fullname="Robert 
>> Moskowitz">
>>      <organization/>
>>      </author>
>>      <date month="February" day="22" year="2001"/>
>>      <abstract>
>>      <t>
>>      This memo describes the reasoning behind proposing a new namespace,
>> the Host Identity, and a payload, between the Internetworking and
>> Transport layers, the Host layer, to carry this identity. Herein is
>> presented the basics of the current namespaces, strengths and
>> weaknesses, and how a new namespace will add completeness to them. This
>> new namespace's roles in the protocols are defined.
>>      </t>
>>      </abstract>
>> </front>
>> <seriesInfo name="Internet-Draft" value="draft-moskowitz-hip-arch-02"/>
>> <format type="TXT"
>> target="http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-moskowitz-hip-arch-02.txt"/> 
>>
>
> There's no point in adding the <format> element. It doesn't do anything.
>
>> </reference>
>>
>> And got:
>>
>>     [draft.moskowitz-hip-arch-02]
>>                Moskowitz, R., "Host Identity Payload", Work in Progress,
>>                Internet-Draft, draft-moskowitz-hip-arch-02, 22 February
>>                2001,
>> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-moskowitz-hip-arch-02>.
>>
>>
>> How do I change this from "Work in Progress" to "Expired"?
>
> The RFC Style Guide requires that internet drafts are cited as "work in
> progress", so this is what the formatter inserts automatically.
>
> If you want to avoid that, you can't use the seriesinfo name attribute
> of "Internet-Draft". This
>
>   <seriesInfo name="expired Internet-Draft"
> value="draft-moskowitz-hip-arch-02"/>
>
> might roughly do what you want.

Yes it did:

    [draft.moskowitz-hip-arch-02]
               Moskowitz, R., "Host Identity Payload", Expired Internet-
               Draft draft-moskowitz-hip-arch-02, 22 February 2001.

Thanks.


>
> (And if it does, you'll have to supply the URI in the reference's target
> attribute manually)
>
>
> Best regards, Julian
>
> PS: if this document gets into AUTH48, you may have to back this out :-)-
>
> PPS: and yes, this is bad. We had a whole committee discussing
> references to internet drafts 10 years ago and couldn't fix that.


From nobody Tue May  5 12:35:45 2020
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Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] referencing an old ID as expired
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On 5/5/20 11:12 AM, Julian Reschke wrote:
> On 05.05.2020 16:49, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
>> I want to reference an old ID for various reasons.  The ID is expired
>> and no xml.  So I created my own ref section:

I don't see much point in highlighting the fact that it is expired in 
the reference. *Any* time you reference a draft, even if it is active at 
the time you publish your document then it can eventually become 
expired. In some sense it remains a work in progress after it expires, 
it simply isn't making very much progress.

And after a draft has expired you can still post a next version of it.

Seems to be a distinction without a difference.

	Thanks,
	Paul


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From: Robert Moskowitz <rgm@htt-consult.com>
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Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] referencing an old ID as expired
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On 5/5/20 3:35 PM, Paul Kyzivat wrote:
> On 5/5/20 11:12 AM, Julian Reschke wrote:
>> On 05.05.2020 16:49, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
>>> I want to reference an old ID for various reasons.  The ID is expired
>>> and no xml.  So I created my own ref section:
>
> I don't see much point in highlighting the fact that it is expired in 
> the reference. *Any* time you reference a draft, even if it is active 
> at the time you publish your document then it can eventually become 
> expired. In some sense it remains a work in progress after it expires, 
> it simply isn't making very much progress.
>
> And after a draft has expired you can still post a next version of it.
>
> Seems to be a distinction without a difference.

One draft had a feature which was later removed and never made it into 
the rfc.  I wanted to reference the last draft with that feature for 
discussion purposes.

The other draft is dead and not going to restart.  However, it also 
presented this feature and thus part of the feature discussion.



From nobody Tue May  5 13:55:37 2020
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To: Robert Moskowitz <rgm@htt-consult.com>, xml2rfc@ietf.org
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From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] referencing an old ID as expired
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On 06-May-20 08:05, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
>=20
>=20
> On 5/5/20 3:35 PM, Paul Kyzivat wrote:
>> On 5/5/20 11:12 AM, Julian Reschke wrote:
>>> On 05.05.2020 16:49, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
>>>> I want to reference an old ID for various reasons.=C2=A0 The ID is e=
xpired
>>>> and no xml.=C2=A0 So I created my own ref section:
>>
>> I don't see much point in highlighting the fact that it is expired in =

>> the reference. *Any* time you reference a draft, even if it is active =

>> at the time you publish your document then it can eventually become=20
>> expired. In some sense it remains a work in progress after it expires,=
=20
>> it simply isn't making very much progress.
>>
>> And after a draft has expired you can still post a next version of it.=

>>
>> Seems to be a distinction without a difference.
>=20
> One draft had a feature which was later removed and never made it into =

> the rfc.=C2=A0 I wanted to reference the last draft with that feature f=
or=20
> discussion purposes.

That's fine, but doesn't change the rule that I-Ds are cited as "work
in progress", which is as old as the hills and has been re-asserted
several times by the RFC Editor.

I can't remember why, but I once needed to cite two different versions
of the same I-D; that required some contortions in the xml, but they were=

certainly both listed as "work in progress".

Stay well,

    Brian

>=20
> The other draft is dead and not going to restart.=C2=A0 However, it als=
o=20
> presented this feature and thus part of the feature discussion.
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> xml2rfc mailing list
> xml2rfc@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/xml2rfc
>=20


From nobody Tue May  5 14:16:45 2020
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From: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
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Date: Tue, 5 May 2020 23:16:35 +0200
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To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] referencing an old ID as expired
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On 2020-05-05, at 22:55, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> On 06-May-20 08:05, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
>>=20
>>=20
>> On 5/5/20 3:35 PM, Paul Kyzivat wrote:
>>> On 5/5/20 11:12 AM, Julian Reschke wrote:
>>>> On 05.05.2020 16:49, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
>>>>> I want to reference an old ID for various reasons.  The ID is =
expired
>>>>> and no xml.  So I created my own ref section:
>>>=20
>>> I don't see much point in highlighting the fact that it is expired =
in=20
>>> the reference. *Any* time you reference a draft, even if it is =
active=20
>>> at the time you publish your document then it can eventually become=20=

>>> expired. In some sense it remains a work in progress after it =
expires,=20
>>> it simply isn't making very much progress.
>>>=20
>>> And after a draft has expired you can still post a next version of =
it.
>>>=20
>>> Seems to be a distinction without a difference.
>>=20
>> One draft had a feature which was later removed and never made it =
into=20
>> the rfc.  I wanted to reference the last draft with that feature for=20=

>> discussion purposes.
>=20
> That's fine, but doesn't change the rule that I-Ds are cited as "work
> in progress", which is as old as the hills and has been re-asserted
> several times by the RFC Editor.

The place that cites the reference will need to provide the information =
whether the referenced draft is considered by the authors of the current =
draft to be

* active [it might still be expired, because the update period increased =
to over 6 months, and it may expire while the current draft is sitting =
in the repo]
* abandoned (no successor)
* superseded (we try to capture this in the datatracker as =
=E2=80=9Creplaced=E2=80=9D, but that is manual work, it also doesn=E2=80=99=
t quite cover all the ways of superseding a previous draft)

The bibliography entry itself is agnostic of this view (*).

=E2=80=9CWork in Progress=E2=80=9D is a bit like =E2=80=9CProposed =
Standard=E2=80=9D:=20
It means something very different in the IETF than outside in normal =
English.

> I can't remember why, but I once needed to cite two different versions
> of the same I-D; that required some contortions in the xml, but they =
were
> certainly both listed as "work in progress".

Yeah, that is a misfeature of the bibxml library.  Easily worked around =
with kramdown-rfc.

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten

(*) Ceterum censeo, not about the reference but about the place it =
appears in: It would really be useful to have a third category of =
references in RFCs that identifies *why* something is referenced, beyond =
normative and informative: historical.  But that is yet another =
dimension.  Yes, I know that historical can be lumped under informative, =
but this structure has more meaning to it than being used by the RFC =
editor to quarantine an RFC in the queue while its normative references =
aren=E2=80=99t done yet.

>=20
> Stay well,
>=20
>    Brian
>=20
>>=20
>> The other draft is dead and not going to restart.  However, it also=20=

>> presented this feature and thus part of the feature discussion.
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> xml2rfc mailing list
>> xml2rfc@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/xml2rfc
>>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> xml2rfc mailing list
> xml2rfc@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/xml2rfc


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To: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Cc: xml2rfc@ietf.org
References: <781a50a7-5faa-1043-56b2-f52b5ac91a80@htt-consult.com> <0ba7aad8-05c2-ad91-9c36-20d58ad5c082@gmx.de> <04138b58-b7cb-b6b7-7d31-8025a5720902@alum.mit.edu> <fa59152b-76cc-9335-66b9-c3160d740d81@htt-consult.com> <dcd5faae-3c1d-0d40-ed1f-5a172e08bb50@gmail.com> <F7B64D08-A659-4D4D-83B1-79FF2CE0FC6F@tzi.org>
From: Robert Moskowitz <rgm@htt-consult.com>
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Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] referencing an old ID as expired
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On 5/5/20 5:16 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote:
> On 2020-05-05, at 22:55, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 06-May-20 08:05, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
>>>
>>> On 5/5/20 3:35 PM, Paul Kyzivat wrote:
>>>> On 5/5/20 11:12 AM, Julian Reschke wrote:
>>>>> On 05.05.2020 16:49, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
>>>>>> I want to reference an old ID for various reasons.  The ID is expired
>>>>>> and no xml.  So I created my own ref section:
>>>> I don't see much point in highlighting the fact that it is expired in
>>>> the reference. *Any* time you reference a draft, even if it is active
>>>> at the time you publish your document then it can eventually become
>>>> expired. In some sense it remains a work in progress after it expires,
>>>> it simply isn't making very much progress.
>>>>
>>>> And after a draft has expired you can still post a next version of it.
>>>>
>>>> Seems to be a distinction without a difference.
>>> One draft had a feature which was later removed and never made it into
>>> the rfc.  I wanted to reference the last draft with that feature for
>>> discussion purposes.
>> That's fine, but doesn't change the rule that I-Ds are cited as "work
>> in progress", which is as old as the hills and has been re-asserted
>> several times by the RFC Editor.
> The place that cites the reference will need to provide the information whether the referenced draft is considered by the authors of the current draft to be
>
> * active [it might still be expired, because the update period increased to over 6 months, and it may expire while the current draft is sitting in the repo]
> * abandoned (no successor)
> * superseded (we try to capture this in the datatracker as “replaced”, but that is manual work, it also doesn’t quite cover all the ways of superseding a previous draft)

hmmm.  well one was abandoned; dropped by the wg but had ideas connected 
to this work in progress.  The other was superseded; work continued with 
this feature...



>
> The bibliography entry itself is agnostic of this view (*).
>
> “Work in Progress” is a bit like “Proposed Standard”:
> It means something very different in the IETF than outside in normal English.
>
>> I can't remember why, but I once needed to cite two different versions
>> of the same I-D; that required some contortions in the xml, but they were
>> certainly both listed as "work in progress".
> Yeah, that is a misfeature of the bibxml library.  Easily worked around with kramdown-rfc.
>
> Grüße, Carsten
>
> (*) Ceterum censeo, not about the reference but about the place it appears in: It would really be useful to have a third category of references in RFCs that identifies *why* something is referenced, beyond normative and informative: historical.  But that is yet another dimension.  Yes, I know that historical can be lumped under informative, but this structure has more meaning to it than being used by the RFC editor to quarantine an RFC in the queue while its normative references aren’t done yet.
>
>> Stay well,
>>
>>     Brian
>>
>>> The other draft is dead and not going to restart.  However, it also
>>> presented this feature and thus part of the feature discussion.
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> xml2rfc mailing list
>>> xml2rfc@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/xml2rfc
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> xml2rfc mailing list
>> xml2rfc@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/xml2rfc


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To: Robert Moskowitz <rgm@htt-consult.com>, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
Cc: xml2rfc@ietf.org
References: <781a50a7-5faa-1043-56b2-f52b5ac91a80@htt-consult.com> <0ba7aad8-05c2-ad91-9c36-20d58ad5c082@gmx.de> <04138b58-b7cb-b6b7-7d31-8025a5720902@alum.mit.edu> <fa59152b-76cc-9335-66b9-c3160d740d81@htt-consult.com> <dcd5faae-3c1d-0d40-ed1f-5a172e08bb50@gmail.com> <F7B64D08-A659-4D4D-83B1-79FF2CE0FC6F@tzi.org> <af589958-3ffe-7ec3-1396-63c6e6b49041@htt-consult.com>
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Date: Wed, 6 May 2020 10:34:44 +1200
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Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] referencing an old ID as expired
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BTW, the proposal in
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-carpenter-rfc-citation-recs-01
in 2011 was this:

   4.  A citation of an Internet-Draft should use the phrase "Working
       Draft" rather than "Work in Progress" whenever appropriate.
       (Stream-specific policies and practices might prohibit this
       practice within certain RFC document streams.)

but it was not accepted. The issue came up again in 2018:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-roach-id-cite-00
but no change was accepted.

Regards
   Brian

On 06-May-20 09:38, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
>=20
>=20
> On 5/5/20 5:16 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote:
>> On 2020-05-05, at 22:55, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.co=
m> wrote:
>>> On 06-May-20 08:05, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On 5/5/20 3:35 PM, Paul Kyzivat wrote:
>>>>> On 5/5/20 11:12 AM, Julian Reschke wrote:
>>>>>> On 05.05.2020 16:49, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
>>>>>>> I want to reference an old ID for various reasons.  The ID is exp=
ired
>>>>>>> and no xml.  So I created my own ref section:
>>>>> I don't see much point in highlighting the fact that it is expired =
in
>>>>> the reference. *Any* time you reference a draft, even if it is acti=
ve
>>>>> at the time you publish your document then it can eventually become=

>>>>> expired. In some sense it remains a work in progress after it expir=
es,
>>>>> it simply isn't making very much progress.
>>>>>
>>>>> And after a draft has expired you can still post a next version of =
it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Seems to be a distinction without a difference.
>>>> One draft had a feature which was later removed and never made it in=
to
>>>> the rfc.  I wanted to reference the last draft with that feature for=

>>>> discussion purposes.
>>> That's fine, but doesn't change the rule that I-Ds are cited as "work=

>>> in progress", which is as old as the hills and has been re-asserted
>>> several times by the RFC Editor.
>> The place that cites the reference will need to provide the informatio=
n whether the referenced draft is considered by the authors of the curren=
t draft to be
>>
>> * active [it might still be expired, because the update period increas=
ed to over 6 months, and it may expire while the current draft is sitting=
 in the repo]
>> * abandoned (no successor)
>> * superseded (we try to capture this in the datatracker as =E2=80=9Cre=
placed=E2=80=9D, but that is manual work, it also doesn=E2=80=99t quite c=
over all the ways of superseding a previous draft)
>=20
> hmmm.=C2=A0 well one was abandoned; dropped by the wg but had ideas con=
nected=20
> to this work in progress.=C2=A0 The other was superseded; work continue=
d with=20
> this feature...
>=20
>=20
>=20
>>
>> The bibliography entry itself is agnostic of this view (*).
>>
>> =E2=80=9CWork in Progress=E2=80=9D is a bit like =E2=80=9CProposed Sta=
ndard=E2=80=9D:
>> It means something very different in the IETF than outside in normal E=
nglish.
>>
>>> I can't remember why, but I once needed to cite two different version=
s
>>> of the same I-D; that required some contortions in the xml, but they =
were
>>> certainly both listed as "work in progress".
>> Yeah, that is a misfeature of the bibxml library.  Easily worked aroun=
d with kramdown-rfc.
>>
>> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten
>>
>> (*) Ceterum censeo, not about the reference but about the place it app=
ears in: It would really be useful to have a third category of references=
 in RFCs that identifies *why* something is referenced, beyond normative =
and informative: historical.  But that is yet another dimension.  Yes, I =
know that historical can be lumped under informative, but this structure =
has more meaning to it than being used by the RFC editor to quarantine an=
 RFC in the queue while its normative references aren=E2=80=99t done yet.=

>>
>>> Stay well,
>>>
>>>     Brian
>>>
>>>> The other draft is dead and not going to restart.  However, it also
>>>> presented this feature and thus part of the feature discussion.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> xml2rfc mailing list
>>>> xml2rfc@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/xml2rfc
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> xml2rfc mailing list
>>> xml2rfc@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/xml2rfc
>=20
>=20


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From: Robert Moskowitz <rgm@htt-consult.com>
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Subject: [xml2rfc] Acknowledgments in Back?
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Carsten mentioned that Acknowledgments now belong in the back:

"the Acknowledgements section to the back material, as now required by 
RFC 7322 Section 4.10 [1]"

But in the draft I am currently working on in xml2rfc --v3

draft-moskowitz-orchid-cshake-01.xml(361): Error: Invalid attribute 
numbered for element section, at /rfc/back/section[2]
draft-moskowitz-orchid-cshake-01.xml(13): Error: Invalid document before 
running preptool.

I put the Acknowledgements after my one appendix in the back.

The Acknowledgements section starts with:

<section numbered="no" toc="default"> <name>Acknowledgments</name>

I also tried:

<section numbered="no" anchor="acknowledgments" title="Acknowledgments">


Same error.


What perhaps am I doing wrong?




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From: Julian Reschke <julian.reschke@gmx.de>
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Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] Acknowledgments in Back?
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On 21.05.2020 17:23, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
> Carsten mentioned that Acknowledgments now belong in the back:
>
> "the Acknowledgements section to the back material, as now required by
> RFC 7322 Section 4.10 [1]"
>
> But in the draft I am currently working on in xml2rfc --v3
>
> draft-moskowitz-orchid-cshake-01.xml(361): Error: Invalid attribute
> numbered for element section, at /rfc/back/section[2]
> draft-moskowitz-orchid-cshake-01.xml(13): Error: Invalid document before
> running preptool.
>
> I put the Acknowledgements after my one appendix in the back.
>
> The Acknowledgements section starts with:
>
> <section numbered=3D"no" toc=3D"default"> <name>Acknowledgments</name>
>
> I also tried:
>
> <section numbered=3D"no" anchor=3D"acknowledgments" title=3D"Acknowledgm=
ents">
>
>
> Same error.
>
>
> What perhaps am I doing wrong?

See
<https://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/rfc7991.html#element.section.attribute.=
numbered>.
Try

   numbered=3D"false"

Best regards, Julian



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Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] Acknowledgments in Back?
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On 5/21/20 11:51 AM, Julian Reschke wrote:
> On 21.05.2020 17:23, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
>> Carsten mentioned that Acknowledgments now belong in the back:
>>
>> "the Acknowledgements section to the back material, as now required by
>> RFC 7322 Section 4.10 [1]"
>>
>> But in the draft I am currently working on in xml2rfc --v3
>>
>> draft-moskowitz-orchid-cshake-01.xml(361): Error: Invalid attribute
>> numbered for element section, at /rfc/back/section[2]
>> draft-moskowitz-orchid-cshake-01.xml(13): Error: Invalid document before
>> running preptool.
>>
>> I put the Acknowledgements after my one appendix in the back.
>>
>> The Acknowledgements section starts with:
>>
>> <section numbered="no" toc="default"> <name>Acknowledgments</name>
>>
>> I also tried:
>>
>> <section numbered="no" anchor="acknowledgments" title="Acknowledgments">
>>
>>
>> Same error.
>>
>>
>> What perhaps am I doing wrong?
>
> See
> <https://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/rfc7991.html#element.section.attribute.numbered>. 
>
> Try
>
>   numbered="false"

Thanks.  That was the needed piece of magic...

>
> Best regards, Julian
>
>


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On 2020-05-21, at 17:51, Julian Reschke <julian.reschke@gmx.de> wrote:
>=20
> See
> =
<https://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/rfc7991.html#element.section.attribute.=
numbered>.
> Try
>=20
>  numbered=3D=E2=80=9Cfalse"

(And for the historians, who will want to find the source of the =
confusion in a hundred years:

numbered=3D=E2=80=9Cno=E2=80=9D was added in an informal manner to the =
v2 syntax that is documented in RFC 7749 (2629).

The first RFC that I can find that was authored with this was RFC 7401, =
by a certain

   <author initials=3D"R." surname=3D"Moskowitz"
     fullname=3D"Robert Moskowitz" role=3D"editor=E2=80=9D>

and others, and the last one was RFC 8649, of August 2019.

Of course, =E2=80=9Cyes=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cno=E2=80=9D are not =
pedantically pure Boolean values, so in the name of consistency this was =
changed into =E2=80=9Cfalse=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ctrue=E2=80=9D.  The =
v2v3 converter of course understands the old attribute names; so =
kramdown=E2=80=94rfc users often use them, but not all of them:

RFC 8470 of September 2018 is the first RFC I can find with =
numbered=3D=E2=80=9Cfalse=E2=80=9D, and this was built with =
kramdown-rfc.)

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


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To: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>, Julian Reschke <julian.reschke@gmx.de>
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From: Robert Moskowitz <rgm@htt-consult.com>
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:)

On 5/21/20 5:03 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote:
> On 2020-05-21, at 17:51, Julian Reschke <julian.reschke@gmx.de> wrote:
>> See
>> <https://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/rfc7991.html#element.section.attribute.numbered>.
>> Try
>>
>>   numbered=“false"
> (And for the historians, who will want to find the source of the confusion in a hundred years:
>
> numbered=“no” was added in an informal manner to the v2 syntax that is documented in RFC 7749 (2629).
>
> The first RFC that I can find that was authored with this was RFC 7401, by a certain
>
>     <author initials="R." surname="Moskowitz"
>       fullname="Robert Moskowitz" role="editor”>

I just checked draft-ietf-hip-rfc5201-bis-20.xml, and no numbered= at all.

This was put in by the RFC editor.  Though it is nice to know we were 
the first test draft->rfc.

>
> and others, and the last one was RFC 8649, of August 2019.
>
> Of course, “yes” and “no” are not pedantically pure Boolean values, so in the name of consistency this was changed into “false” and “true”.  The v2v3 converter of course understands the old attribute names; so kramdown—rfc users often use them, but not all of them:
>
> RFC 8470 of September 2018 is the first RFC I can find with numbered=“false”, and this was built with kramdown-rfc.)
>
> Grüße, Carsten
>


From nobody Wed May 27 04:29:07 2020
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Subject: [xml2rfc] New xml2rfc release: v2.45.0
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Hi,

This is an automatic notification about a new xml2rfc release, 
v2.45.0, generated when running the mkrelease script.

Release notes:

xml2rfc (2.45.0) ietf; urgency=medium

  * Fixed the html rendering of <cref> with display=false.
    Fixes issue #516.

  * Fixed the text rendering of <cref> with display=false.
    Fixes issue #515.

  * Fixed an error in postal address rendering for Sweden.
    Fixes issue #520.

  * Changed the internals of the text formatter to retain <br> information 
    for longer internally, in order to make <br> have effect in for instance 
    <dd> and <td> element text.  Fixes issues #508 and #513.

  * Fixed erroneous indentation of first line of second and following 
    paragraphs of multi-paragraph <dd> elements, and changed code to retain 
    <br> in filled text.

  * Added a font-family setting for @page in PDF mode, and added code to 
    warn about missing Roboto Mono fonts if the python-fontconfig package
    is available

  * Added instructions for RobotoMono to the installation help for the 
    --pdf switch.

 -- Henrik Levkowetz <henrik@levkowetz.com>  27 May 2020 04:07:48 -0700

The preferred way to install xml2rfc is by doing 'pip install xml2rfc',
and 'pip install --upgrade xml2rfc' to upgrade.  If there are system-
installed python modules which pip will not upgrade, you may have to
use 'pip install --upgrade --no-deps xml2rfc' and install dependencies
manually.

The new version is also available through SVN checkout, with
  'svn checkout http://svn.tools.ietf.org/svn/tools/xml2rfc/tags/cli/2.45.0'

Regards,

	Henrik
	(via the mkrelease script)


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Subject: [xml2rfc] question about ?anchor= in xi:include
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In the usage below:

<xi:include 
href="https://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org/public/rfc/bibxml3/reference.I-D.card-drip-reqs.xml?anchor=drip-reqs"/>

Where at the beginning of <back> there is:

<displayreference target="I-D.card-drip-reqs" to="drip-requirements"/>

What value is the anchor?

I can't use it in a xref target=

If I leave it out, there is no difference in the resultant draft.

When I look at the v3 FAQ, it seems that the anchor is used when no 
displayreference?

thanks



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Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] question about ?anchor= in xi:include
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Hi Bob,

> On 2020-05-27, at 15:13, Robert Moskowitz <rgm@htt-consult.com> wrote:
>=20
> In the usage below:
>=20
> <xi:include =
href=3D"https://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org/public/rfc/bibxml3/reference.I-D.ca=
rd-drip-reqs.xml?anchor=3Ddrip-reqs"/>

The HTTP query part would need to be interpreted by the bibxml server, =
but it is not implemented for bibxml3 (it *is* for DOI and IANA).  So =
this is right now completely equivalent to:

> <xi:include =
href=3D"https://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org/public/rfc/bibxml3/reference.I-D.ca=
rd-drip-reqs.xml"/>

>=20
> Where at the beginning of <back> there is:
>=20
> <displayreference target=3D"I-D.card-drip-reqs" =
to=3D"drip-requirements"/>
>=20
> What value is the anchor?

I-D.card-drip-reqs

> I can't use it in a xref target=3D
>=20
> If I leave it out, there is no difference in the resultant draft.
>=20
> When I look at the v3 FAQ, it seems that the anchor is used when no =
displayreference?

You use the anchor in target=3D attributes (for elements such as xref or =
displayreference).

The output sees the value of the to=3D attribute of the display =
reference, if any, or the anchor otherwise.

(This is all a bit simpler in kramdown-rfc, thanks to a contribution by =
Martin Thomson:

informative:
  drip-requirements: I-D.card-drip-reqs

Then you can use {{drip-requirements}} and will see [drip-requirements] =
as the displayed reference.)

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


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To: Robert Moskowitz <rgm@htt-consult.com>, "xml2rfc@ietf.org" <xml2rfc@ietf.org>
References: <4676a8d6-82fa-8085-79fb-92ab7737bcb3@htt-consult.com>
From: Julian Reschke <julian.reschke@gmx.de>
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Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 15:30:26 +0200
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Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] question about ?anchor= in xi:include
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On 27.05.2020 15:13, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
> In the usage below:
>
> <xi:include
> href=3D"https://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org/public/rfc/bibxml3/reference.I-D.=
card-drip-reqs.xml?anchor=3Ddrip-reqs"/>
>
>
> Where at the beginning of <back> there is:
>
> <displayreference target=3D"I-D.card-drip-reqs" to=3D"drip-requirements"=
/>
>
> What value is the anchor?

In the URI


https://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org/public/rfc/bibxml3/reference.I-D.card-drip-=
reqs.xml?anchor=3Ddrip-reqs

the "anchor" query parameter doesn't seem to be used; the XML is:

<reference anchor=3D"I-D.card-drip-reqs">
<front>
<title>Drone Remote Identification Protocol (DRIP) Requirements</title>

<author initials=3D"S" surname=3D"Card" fullname=3D"Stuart Card">
     <organization/>
</author>

<author initials=3D"A" surname=3D"Wiethuechter" fullname=3D"Adam Wiethuech=
ter">
     <organization/>
</author>

<author initials=3D"R" surname=3D"Moskowitz" fullname=3D"Robert Moskowitz"=
>
     <organization/>
</author>

<date month=3D"April" day=3D"20" year=3D"2020"/>

<abstract><t>This document defines the requirements for Drone Remote
Identification Protocol (DRIP) Working Group protocols and services to
support Unmanned Aircraft System Remote Identification (UAS RID).
Objectives include: complementing external technical standards as
regulator-accepted means of compliance with UAS RID regulations;
facilitating use of existing Internet resources to support UAS RID and
to enable enhanced related services; and enabling verification that UAS
RID information is trustworthy (to some extent, even in the absence of
Internet connectivity at the receiving node).</t></abstract>

</front>

<seriesInfo name=3D"Internet-Draft" value=3D"draft-card-drip-reqs-02"/>
<format type=3D"TXT"
target=3D"http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-card-drip-reqs-02.txt"=
/>
</reference>


So, as anchor you'll need to use "I-D.card-drip-reqs". The
<displayreference> just changes what's displayed in the references.

> I can't use it in a xref target=3D

You are not supposed to :-)

> If I leave it out, there is no difference in the resultant draft.
>
> When I look at the v3 FAQ, it seems that the anchor is used when no
> displayreference?

<displayreference> only affects *display*. See
<https://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/rfc7991.html#element.displayreference>.


Best regards, Julian


From nobody Wed May 27 06:40:02 2020
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To: Julian Reschke <julian.reschke@gmx.de>, "xml2rfc@ietf.org" <xml2rfc@ietf.org>
References: <4676a8d6-82fa-8085-79fb-92ab7737bcb3@htt-consult.com> <2b516e43-3f11-1888-c3e0-499d05c496f6@gmx.de>
From: Robert Moskowitz <rgm@htt-consult.com>
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Date: Wed, 27 May 2020 09:39:50 -0400
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Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] question about ?anchor= in xi:include
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thank you Carsten and Julian.

On 5/27/20 9:30 AM, Julian Reschke wrote:
> On 27.05.2020 15:13, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
>> In the usage below:
>>
>> <xi:include
>> href="https://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org/public/rfc/bibxml3/reference.I-D.card-drip-reqs.xml?anchor=drip-reqs"/> 
>>
>>
>>
>> Where at the beginning of <back> there is:
>>
>> <displayreference target="I-D.card-drip-reqs" to="drip-requirements"/>
>>
>> What value is the anchor?
>
> In the URI
>
>
> https://xml2rfc.tools.ietf.org/public/rfc/bibxml3/reference.I-D.card-drip-reqs.xml?anchor=drip-reqs 
>
>
> the "anchor" query parameter doesn't seem to be used; the XML is:
>
> <reference anchor="I-D.card-drip-reqs">
> <front>
> <title>Drone Remote Identification Protocol (DRIP) Requirements</title>
>
> <author initials="S" surname="Card" fullname="Stuart Card">
>     <organization/>
> </author>
>
> <author initials="A" surname="Wiethuechter" fullname="Adam Wiethuechter">
>     <organization/>
> </author>
>
> <author initials="R" surname="Moskowitz" fullname="Robert Moskowitz">
>     <organization/>
> </author>
>
> <date month="April" day="20" year="2020"/>
>
> <abstract><t>This document defines the requirements for Drone Remote
> Identification Protocol (DRIP) Working Group protocols and services to
> support Unmanned Aircraft System Remote Identification (UAS RID).
> Objectives include: complementing external technical standards as
> regulator-accepted means of compliance with UAS RID regulations;
> facilitating use of existing Internet resources to support UAS RID and
> to enable enhanced related services; and enabling verification that UAS
> RID information is trustworthy (to some extent, even in the absence of
> Internet connectivity at the receiving node).</t></abstract>
>
> </front>
>
> <seriesInfo name="Internet-Draft" value="draft-card-drip-reqs-02"/>
> <format type="TXT"
> target="http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-card-drip-reqs-02.txt"/> 
>
> </reference>
>
>
> So, as anchor you'll need to use "I-D.card-drip-reqs". The
> <displayreference> just changes what's displayed in the references.
>
>> I can't use it in a xref target=
>
> You are not supposed to :-)
>
>> If I leave it out, there is no difference in the resultant draft.
>>
>> When I look at the v3 FAQ, it seems that the anchor is used when no
>> displayreference?
>
> <displayreference> only affects *display*. See
> <https://greenbytes.de/tech/webdav/rfc7991.html#element.displayreference>. 
>
>
>
> Best regards, Julian


From nobody Fri May 29 12:56:57 2020
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From: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
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To: Henrik Levkowetz <henrik@levkowetz.com>
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Subject: [xml2rfc] SVG broken (Re: [xml2rfc-dev] New xml2rfc release: v2.45.0)
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Hi Henrik,

I no longer get SVG through this version that has been =E2=80=9Crepaired=E2=
=80=9D by svgcheck -qra; the SVG processing now seems very picky.  (I =
haven=E2=80=99t updated since 2.39, so this might have happened =
earlier.)

(I do get figures through this version that have the attribute =
foo=3D=E2=80=9Cbar=E2=80=9D, so it can=E2=80=99t just be more picky XML =
processing.)

Before I generate a more detailed test case: Is svgcheck still intended =
to be the tool to be used with xml2rfc to make SVG palatable to it?  Is =
that being updated along with xml2rfc getting more picky?

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten

y2020-05-29svg.xml(606): Error: Invalid attribute shape-rendering for =
element svg, at /rfc/middle/section[2]/section[2]/artset[1]/artwork[1]/*
y2020-05-29svg.xml(645): Error: Invalid attribute stroke for element =
text, at =
/rfc/middle/section[2]/section[2]/artset[2]/artwork[1]/*/*[2]/*[7]
y2020-05-29svg.xml(646): Error: Invalid attribute stroke for element =
text, at =
/rfc/middle/section[2]/section[2]/artset[2]/artwork[1]/*/*[2]/*[8]
y2020-05-29svg.xml(647): Error: Invalid attribute stroke for element =
text, at =
/rfc/middle/section[2]/section[2]/artset[2]/artwork[1]/*/*[2]/*[9]
y2020-05-29svg.xml(648): Error: Invalid attribute stroke for element =
text, at =
/rfc/middle/section[2]/section[2]/artset[2]/artwork[1]/*/*[2]/*[10]
y2020-05-29svg.xml(635): Error: Invalid attribute shape-rendering for =
element svg, at /rfc/middle/section[2]/section[2]/artset[2]/artwork[1]/*
y2020-05-29svg.xml(666): Error: Invalid attribute stroke for element =
path, at =
/rfc/middle/section[2]/section[2]/artset[3]/artwork[1]/*/*[2]/*[4]
y2020-05-29svg.xml(670): Error: Invalid attribute stroke for element =
text, at =
/rfc/middle/section[2]/section[2]/artset[3]/artwork[1]/*/*[2]/*[8]
y2020-05-29svg.xml(671): Error: Invalid attribute stroke for element =
text, at =
/rfc/middle/section[2]/section[2]/artset[3]/artwork[1]/*/*[2]/*[9]
y2020-05-29svg.xml(672): Error: Invalid attribute stroke for element =
text, at =
/rfc/middle/section[2]/section[2]/artset[3]/artwork[1]/*/*[2]/*[10]
y2020-05-29svg.xml(659): Error: Invalid attribute shape-rendering for =
element svg, at /rfc/middle/section[2]/section[2]/artset[3]/artwork[1]/*
y2020-05-29svg.xml(692): Error: Invalid attribute stroke for element =
text, at =
/rfc/middle/section[2]/section[2]/artset[4]/artwork[1]/*/*[2]/*[8]
y2020-05-29svg.xml(693): Error: Invalid attribute stroke for element =
text, at =
/rfc/middle/section[2]/section[2]/artset[4]/artwork[1]/*/*[2]/*[9]
y2020-05-29svg.xml(694): Error: Invalid attribute stroke for element =
text, at =
/rfc/middle/section[2]/section[2]/artset[4]/artwork[1]/*/*[2]/*[10]
y2020-05-29svg.xml(695): Error: Invalid attribute stroke for element =
text, at =
/rfc/middle/section[2]/section[2]/artset[4]/artwork[1]/*/*[2]/*[11]
y2020-05-29svg.xml(696): Error: Invalid attribute stroke for element =
text, at =
/rfc/middle/section[2]/section[2]/artset[4]/artwork[1]/*/*[2]/*[12]



From nobody Fri May 29 14:29:20 2020
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Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] SVG broken (Re: [xml2rfc-dev] New xml2rfc release: v2.45.0)
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On 2020-05-29, at 21:56, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> wrote:
>=20
> I no longer get SVG through this version that has been =E2=80=9Crepaired=
=E2=80=9D by svgcheck -qra; the SVG processing now seems very picky.  (I =
haven=E2=80=99t updated since 2.39, so this might have happened =
earlier.)

Well, OK, this is now SVG generated by ditaa instead of goat, and ditaa =
seems to want to show of its knowledge of SVG some more.  So that may =
not be a change in xml2rfc at all.  My question is mostly still valid, =
though:

> Is svgcheck still intended to be the tool to be used with xml2rfc to =
make SVG palatable to it?  Is that being updated along with xml2rfc ...?

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


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To: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>, Henrik Levkowetz <henrik@levkowetz.com>
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Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] SVG broken (Re: [xml2rfc-dev] New xml2rfc release: v2.45.0)
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Do you know what bit of SVG it is barfing on?

I'm curious because I've done some personal patching of svgcheck and disc=
overed what a minefield this all is. Indeed, some drawing tools produce s=
tuff that others don't, so there is a strong element of crapshoot.

Regards
   Brian

On 30-May-20 09:29, Carsten Bormann wrote:
> On 2020-05-29, at 21:56, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> wrote:
>>
>> I no longer get SVG through this version that has been =E2=80=9Crepair=
ed=E2=80=9D by svgcheck -qra; the SVG processing now seems very picky.  (=
I haven=E2=80=99t updated since 2.39, so this might have happened earlier=
=2E)
>=20
> Well, OK, this is now SVG generated by ditaa instead of goat, and ditaa=
 seems to want to show of its knowledge of SVG some more.  So that may no=
t be a change in xml2rfc at all.  My question is mostly still valid, thou=
gh:
>=20
>> Is svgcheck still intended to be the tool to be used with xml2rfc to m=
ake SVG palatable to it?  Is that being updated along with xml2rfc ...?
>=20
> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> xml2rfc mailing list
> xml2rfc@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/xml2rfc
>=20


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To: Henrik Levkowetz <henrik@levkowetz.com>, xml2rfc@ietf.org
Cc: rfc-markdown@ietf.org
References: <E1iNIwd-0006wR-VI@durif.tools.ietf.org>
From: Anders Rundgren <anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com>
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Date: Sat, 30 May 2020 04:43:23 +0200
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Subject: [xml2rfc] RfcMarkup ToC has no links
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sample RFC: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8759

That the page number links are gone is understandable since there (fortunately) is no paging anymore but removing links for headers seem illogical in an HTML formatted document.

I understand that the IETF want to retire the RfcMarkup format but since the IETF apparently still publish in this format, shouldn't also stay useful?

I'm currently in the auth48 state and the on-line xml2rfc tool produces ToC links for appendices(!).  Is that a bug or a feature?

thanx,
Anders


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Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] [Rfc-markdown] SVG broken (Re: [xml2rfc-dev] New xml2rfc release: v2.45.0)
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Hi Brian,

> On 2020-05-30, at 01:24, Brian E Carpenter =
<brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> Do you know what bit of SVG it is barfing on?

I had some error messages in my first message.  Let me expand on these:
AFAICS this is all about attributes that xml2rfc does not accept on =
specific SVG elements.

Consolidating these messages a bit, I get:

y.xml(722): Error: Invalid attribute shape-rendering for element svg, =
[=E2=80=A6]
y.xml(776): Error: Invalid attribute stroke for element path, [=E2=80=A6]
y.xml(818): Error: Invalid attribute stroke for element text, [=E2=80=A6]
(And then, apparently as a result of these:
y.xml(14): Error: Invalid document before running preptool.
.)

Well, this is not the whole story, as stroke needs to be a valid =
attribute for path; this seems to be about the value stroke=3D"#000000=E2=80=
=9D for path (which probably needs to be replaced by stroke=3D=E2=80=9Cbla=
ck=E2=80=9D) and stroke=3D"none=E2=80=9D for text (which probably is =
default anyway).
This was for ditaa.  With mscgen, I additionally get:

ymscgen.xml(87): Error: Invalid attribute text-rendering for element =
svg, [=E2=80=A6]

> I'm curious because I've done some personal patching of svgcheck and =
discovered what a minefield this all is. Indeed, some drawing tools =
produce stuff that others don't, so there is a strong element of =
crapshoot.

Yes, those words describe it pretty well.

Of course, I could easily integrate my own additions of svgcheck-like =
processing into kramdown-rfc.
Unfortunately, adding serious XML processing adds some deployment =
considerations (one would normally use a gem that causes some =
installation difficulties on older platforms as it requires compiling =
native code).

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


>=20
> Regards
>   Brian
>=20
> On 30-May-20 09:29, Carsten Bormann wrote:
>> On 2020-05-29, at 21:56, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> I no longer get SVG through this version that has been =
=E2=80=9Crepaired=E2=80=9D by svgcheck -qra; the SVG processing now =
seems very picky.  (I haven=E2=80=99t updated since 2.39, so this might =
have happened earlier.)
>>=20
>> Well, OK, this is now SVG generated by ditaa instead of goat, and =
ditaa seems to want to show of its knowledge of SVG some more.  So that =
may not be a change in xml2rfc at all.  My question is mostly still =
valid, though:
>>=20
>>> Is svgcheck still intended to be the tool to be used with xml2rfc to =
make SVG palatable to it?  Is that being updated along with xml2rfc ...?
>>=20
>> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> xml2rfc mailing list
>> xml2rfc@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/xml2rfc
>>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Rfc-markdown mailing list
> Rfc-markdown@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rfc-markdown


From nobody Sat May 30 04:56:38 2020
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Hi,

This is an automatic notification about a new xml2rfc release, 
v2.45.1, generated when running the mkrelease script.

Release notes:

xml2rfc (2.45.1) ietf; urgency=medium

  * Changed the handling of hyphens in table cells, so as to introduce line 
    breaks on hyphens if necessary to keep a table from becoming too wide (but 
    not otherwise).  The --table-hyphen-breaks switch can be used to permit 
    line breaks on hyphens in table cells also for tables that would not 
    otherwise become too wide.

  * Added a switch --table-hyphen-breaks that will make the text renderer 
    more eager to break on hyphens in table cells.

  * Using a pilcrow on an otherwise empty element added unwanted vertical
    space in the HTML output; avoid this.  Related to issue #508.

  * Added a parameter to TextSplitter to control whether text is split on 
    hyphens or not.

 -- Henrik Levkowetz <henrik@levkowetz.com>  30 May 2020 11:52:33 +0000

The preferred way to install xml2rfc is by doing 'pip install xml2rfc',
and 'pip install --upgrade xml2rfc' to upgrade.  If there are system-
installed python modules which pip will not upgrade, you may have to
use 'pip install --upgrade --no-deps xml2rfc' and install dependencies
manually.

The new version is also available through SVN checkout, with
  'svn checkout http://svn.tools.ietf.org/svn/tools/xml2rfc/tags/cli/2.45.1'

Regards,

	Henrik
	(via the mkrelease script)


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Subject: [xml2rfc] 1.3.7: supporting ditaa, mscgen in -3 mode
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On 2020-05-30, at 08:42, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> wrote:
>=20
> Of course, I could easily integrate my own additions of svgcheck-like =
processing into kramdown-rfc.
> Unfortunately, adding serious XML processing adds some deployment =
considerations (one would normally use a gem that causes some =
installation difficulties on older platforms as it requires compiling =
native code).

Well, I chose an older gem that doesn=E2=80=99t have this problem (but =
is quite slow and less tested); I can now do svgcheck workarounds and am =
doing those for the breakage I have seen for ditaa and mscgen.

So kramdown-rfc2629 version 1.3.7 now supports ditaa and mscgen (in =
addition to goat, which was added in 1.3.2) for automatic artset =
generation. =20

So, for instance, you can now write

~~~ mscgen
msc {
  a,b,c;

  a->b  [label=3D"ab()"] ;
  b->c  [label=3D"bc(TRUE)"];
  c=3D>c  [label=3D"process(1)"];
  c=3D>c  [label=3D"process(2)"];
  ...;
  c=3D>c  [label=3D"process(n)"];
  c=3D>c  [label=3D"process(END)"];
  a<<=3Dc [label=3D"callback()"];
  ---   [label=3D"If more to run", ID=3D"*"];
  a->a  [label=3D"next()"];
  a->c  [label=3D"ac()"];
  b<-c  [label=3D"cb(TRUE)"];
  b->b  [label=3D"stalled(...)"];
  a<-b  [label=3D"ab() =3D FALSE"];
}
~~~

and get what you can see at http://www.tzi.de/~cabo/1-3-7-mscgen.png .

As usual, update with

	gem update kramdown-rfc2629

The tool that you want to use (goat, mscgen, or ditaa) needs to be =
installed and on the path of the process that runs kramdown-rfc.

If there is any other tool like that that you=E2=80=99d like to see =
supported, and it produces SVG that can be made palatable to xml2rfc =
without superhuman effort, please tell me.

There is no doubt that you can write ditaa that will break svgcheck=E2=80=99=
s (and my workarounds=E2=80=99) little mind; e.g., preferably, try to =
stay black-and-white.

Note that for mscgen, the mscgen source may not exactly be what you want =
in a plaintext-based RFC (but the SVG output is probably what you do =
want in your HTML renderings); I=E2=80=99d appreciate any proposals on =
how to turn mscgen into ASCII art=E2=80=A6

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


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> On May 30, 2020, at 12:23 PM, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> wrote:
>=20
> If there is any other tool like that that you=E2=80=99d like to see =
supported, and it produces SVG that can be made palatable to xml2rfc =
without superhuman effort, please tell me.

I use Boxy SVG (https://boxy-svg.com) and need to make some drawings for =
a draft so I=E2=80=99ll try it when I get a chance.

Tom


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On 2020-05-30, at 20:21, Tom Pusateri <pusateri@bangj.com> wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
>> On May 30, 2020, at 12:23 PM, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> wrote:
>>=20
>> If there is any other tool like that that you=E2=80=99d like to see =
supported, and it produces SVG that can be made palatable to xml2rfc =
without superhuman effort, please tell me.
>=20
> I use Boxy SVG (https://boxy-svg.com) and need to make some drawings =
for a draft so I=E2=80=99ll try it when I get a chance.

Hi Tom,

I=E2=80=99m using that, too, occasionally (outside of RFCs).
Does that come with a command line tool for transforming a =E2=80=9Csource=
=E2=80=9D (e.g., ASCII art)?
This is the use case that I was addressing first, as the source then =
stands in fine as a plaintext replacement for the graphics.

I could clearly add

~~~ svg
{::include boxy-output.svg}
~~~

as a shortcut for all the things that need to be done to include SVG, =
but where would the plaintext stand-in come from?

(And what might be good markdown for the =E2=80=9Cartset=E2=80=9D =
approach used by beta v3?)

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


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Date: Sun, 31 May 2020 08:00:40 +0200
From: Miek Gieben <miek@miek.nl>
To: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
Cc: rfc-markdown@ietf.org, xml2rfc@ietf.org, xml2rfc-dev@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [xml2rfc] [Rfc-markdown] 1.3.7: supporting ditaa, mscgen in -3 mode
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[ Quoting <cabo@tzi.org> in "[Rfc-markdown] 1.3.7: supporting di..." ]
>So, for instance, you can now write
>
>~~~ mscgen
>msc {
>  a,b,c;
>
>}
>~~~

I've had a similar idea and implemented it as a separate binary that manipulates
the markdown: https://mmark.miek.nl/post/markdown-filter/

This allows you to create pipelines, example one that uses a python program called
'protocol': https://github.com/mmarkdown/filter/tree/master/plugins/protocol

``` protocol
Source:16,TTL:8,Reserved:40
```
Figure: This is a protocol.

Will be transformed with `filter -p protocol < protocol.md | mmark -markdown`, to:

We describe the following protocol:

```
  0                   1                   2                   3
  0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
|             Source            |      TTL      |               |
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+               +
|                            Reserved                           |
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
```
Figure: This is a protocol.

/Miek

--
Miek Gieben


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> On May 30, 2020, at 8:15 PM, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> wrote:
>=20
> On 2020-05-30, at 20:21, Tom Pusateri <pusateri@bangj.com> wrote:
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>> On May 30, 2020, at 12:23 PM, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> If there is any other tool like that that you=E2=80=99d like to see =
supported, and it produces SVG that can be made palatable to xml2rfc =
without superhuman effort, please tell me.
>>=20
>> I use Boxy SVG (https://boxy-svg.com) and need to make some drawings =
for a draft so I=E2=80=99ll try it when I get a chance.
>=20
> Hi Tom,
>=20
> I=E2=80=99m using that, too, occasionally (outside of RFCs).
> Does that come with a command line tool for transforming a =
=E2=80=9Csource=E2=80=9D (e.g., ASCII art)?
> This is the use case that I was addressing first, as the source then =
stands in fine as a plaintext replacement for the graphics.
>=20
> I could clearly add
>=20
> ~~~ svg
> {::include boxy-output.svg}
> ~~~
>=20
> as a shortcut for all the things that need to be done to include SVG, =
but where would the plaintext stand-in come from?
>=20
> (And what might be good markdown for the =E2=80=9Cartset=E2=80=9D =
approach used by beta v3?)
>=20
> Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten
>=20

oh, I see. My case was simpler because I was taking an existing ASCII =
art and redrawing it in SVG.

I don=E2=80=99t have a way to generate both from scratch and Boxy SVG =
doesn=E2=80=99t have a command line option.

Tom


