From nobody Wed Nov 11 05:58:48 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 914FE1ACE60 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 05:58:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zR3nIXVWR43E for ; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 05:58:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from alln-iport-6.cisco.com (alln-iport-6.cisco.com [173.37.142.93]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BA5F21ACE57 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 05:58:44 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=9909; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1447250326; x=1448459926; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: mime-version; bh=23pHCR+SijX2xWAHeWd2KOVQQ0MsvY83VJFS+VosuIY=; b=eGet66daNNaCj8dgDYYgicSJ94PK1Ieq+l980VfnJ3rpB8NEBQ1xJ7Qk 32UggzrnMkYBZSGKeclL/8Wl+elxkizZsZ7BSRlVeqqZEqpSumJdtYNt8 skLNwswhKzTXZWVWDQuUNg/fBxASEqK465pNnbmRlPcVHPHDQq90UDvig 0=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0BwAABbSENW/4sNJK1EBBMDgm4PPlNvBr4ZAQ1/BWEjhW0CgUU4FAEBAQEBAQGBCoQ0AQEBAgItOSECAgEIEQQBARQBBAwKGwYRHQcBAQEBAwESCBeHegMSDTu4QYZJDYRbAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBGASGUIR+gUABgRKBTyczDBoHhBAFiB2OKwGFHIVRQ4FugWIWhCqOV4Nhg3EBHwEBQoIRHYEHT3IBhE6BBwEBAQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,276,1444694400"; d="scan'208,217";a="207098981" Received: from alln-core-6.cisco.com ([173.36.13.139]) by alln-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 11 Nov 2015 13:58:45 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-012.cisco.com (xch-rcd-012.cisco.com [173.37.102.22]) by alln-core-6.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tABDwhgm006720 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 11 Nov 2015 13:58:43 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-006.cisco.com (173.37.102.16) by XCH-RCD-012.cisco.com (173.37.102.22) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 07:58:43 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-006.cisco.com ([173.37.102.16]) by XCH-RCD-006.cisco.com ([173.37.102.16]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 07:58:43 -0600 From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" To: "Toerless Eckert (eckert)" , "Max Pritikin (pritikin)" , "Jason Coleman (colemaj)" , "mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca" , "ietf@sandeep.de" , "alper.yegin@yegin.org" , "jiangsheng@huawei.com" , "leo.liubing@huawei.com" , "brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com" , "kwatsen@juniper.net" , "anima-bootstrap@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Weekly Webex invite for anima bootstrap team meeting Thread-Index: AdCq3XIOlfGppXwlS+iXiAzrSXhA3hxq3hCw Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 13:58:42 +0000 Message-ID: <2fcca486f0ae41e4a7e0ba0c44a9a6f8@XCH-RCD-006.cisco.com> References: <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF22FF0411@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF22FF0411@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.55.238.132] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2fcca486f0ae41e4a7e0ba0c44a9a6f8XCHRCD006ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Anima-bootstrap] Weekly Webex invite for anima bootstrap team meeting X-BeenThere: anima-bootstrap@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for the bootstrap design team of the ANIMA WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 13:58:47 -0000 --_000_2fcca486f0ae41e4a7e0ba0c44a9a6f8XCHRCD006ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bank holiday today in France, I won't join. Michael -----Original Appointment----- From: Toerless Eckert (eckert) Sent: 20 June 2015 00:15 To: Toerless Eckert (eckert); Max Pritikin (pritikin); Jason Coleman = (colemaj); mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca; ietf@sandeep.de; Michael Behringer (mbehr= ing); alper.yegin@yegin.org; jiangsheng@huawei.com; leo.liubing@huawei.com;= brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com; kwatsen@juniper.net; anima-bootstrap@ietf.org Subject: Weekly Webex invite for anima bootstrap team meeting When: 11 November 2015 07:00-08:00 (UTC-08:00) Pacific Time (US & Can= ada). Where: Webex - Video/Audio So Wednesday 7 AM PST seems to be the best slot - it fits everybody e= xcept Brian and myself, and I think I can get the other meeting moved. Mich= ael Richardson also mentioned that we may be on/off 1 hour due to daylight = saving times, so let me shoot the meeting invite out here with outlook and = webex, and see if this still works for everybody else. Cheers Toerless -- Do not delete or change any of the following text. -- Join WebEx meeting Meeting number: 200 557 721 Meeting password: boot If you are the host, you can use the meeting host key to pass the hos= t privilege to another participant or to start the meeting from a video con= ferencing system or application. To find the host key for this meeting, go = here. Join by phone +1-866-432-9903 Call-in toll-free number (US/Canada) +1-408-525-6800 Call-in toll number (US/Canada) Access code: 200 557 721 Global call-in numbers | Toll-free calling r= estrictions Can't join the meeting? Contact support. IMPORTANT NOTICE: Please note that this WebEx service allows audio an= d other information sent during the session to be recorded, which may be di= scoverable in a legal matter. By joining this session, you automatically co= nsent to such recordings. If you do not consent to being recorded, discuss = your concerns with the host or do not join the session.. --_000_2fcca486f0ae41e4a7e0ba0c44a9a6f8XCHRCD006ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bank holiday today in France, I won’t jo= in.
 
Michael
 
-----Original Appointment-----
From: Toerless Eckert (eckert)
Sent: 20 June 2015 00:15
To: Toerless Eckert (eckert); Max Pritikin (pritikin); Jason Coleman= (colemaj); mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca; ietf@sandeep.de; Michael Behringer (= mbehring); alper.yegin@yegin.org; jiangsheng@huawei.com; leo.liubing@huawei= .com; brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com; kwatsen@juniper.net; anima-bootstrap@ietf.org
Subject: Weekly Webex invite for anima bootstrap team meeting
When: 11 November 2015 07:00-08:00 (UTC-08:00) Pacific Time (US &= ; Canada).
Where: Webex - Video/Audio
 
 
 
So Wednesday 7 AM PST seems to be the best slot – it fits ever= ybody except Brian and myself, and I think I can get the other meeting move= d. Michael Richardson also mentioned that we may be on/off 1 hour due to daylight saving times, so let me shoot the meet= ing invite out here with outlook and webex, and see if this still works for= everybody else.

Cheers
    Toerless
 
 
-= - Do not delete or change any of the = following text. -- &= nbsp;
 
 
Join WebEx meeting  
Meeting number: 200 557 721 
Meeting password: boot 
 

If you are the host, you can use the meeting host key to pass the hos= t privilege to another participant or to start the meeting from a video con= ferencing system or application. To find the host key for this meeting, go here.

Join by = phone = ;
+1-866-432-9903 Call-in toll-free number (US/Canada)=  
+1-408-525-6800 Call-in toll number (US/Canada) 
Access code: 200 557 721 
Global call-in numbers<= /u>&nbs= p; |  Toll-free calling restrictions=   
 
 
Can't join the meeting? Contact support.  
 
IMPORTANT NOTICE: Please note that this WebEx service allows audio a= nd other information sent during the session to be recorded, which may be d= iscoverable in a legal matter. By joining this session, you automatically consent to such recordings. If you do not c= onsent to being recorded, discuss your concerns with the host or do not joi= n the session..=
 
 --_000_2fcca486f0ae41e4a7e0ba0c44a9a6f8XCHRCD006ciscocom_-- From nobody Wed Nov 11 07:12:56 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3076D1AD2EE for ; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 07:12:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.511 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yy90ex6cfcXW for ; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 07:12:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-6.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-6.cisco.com [173.37.86.77]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3F03A1AD2AF for ; 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Wed, 11 Nov 2015 15:12:52 GMT Received: from xch-aln-013.cisco.com (173.36.7.23) by XCH-RCD-015.cisco.com (173.37.102.25) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 09:12:52 -0600 Received: from xch-aln-013.cisco.com ([173.36.7.23]) by XCH-ALN-013.cisco.com ([173.36.7.23]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 09:12:51 -0600 From: "Max Pritikin (pritikin)" To: anima-bootstrap Thread-Topic: minimal meeting this morning post yokohama Thread-Index: AQHRHJNuhKviS5rX/E2GWdXO4A8GuQ== Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 15:12:51 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.99.106.14] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <5EABBDACE08A4349949568510636E40A@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: [Anima-bootstrap] minimal meeting this morning post yokohama X-BeenThere: anima-bootstrap@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for the bootstrap design team of the ANIMA WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 15:12:54 -0000 DQpHcmVldGluZ3MsIA0KDQpPbmx5IFRvZXJsZXNzIGFuZCBteXNlbGYgam9pbmVkIHRoaXMgbW9y bmluZy4gV2UgYnJpZWZseSBkaXNjdXNzZWQgdGhlIHRocmVhZCByZSBBQ1AgJiBHUkFTUCBsYXll cmluZyB0aGF0IFJpY2hhcmRzb24gc3RhcnRlZCBidXQgb3RoZXIgdGhhbiB0aGF0IHNodXQgZG93 biB0aGUgZGlzY3Vzc2lvbiBmb3IgbGFjayBvZiBhdHRlbmRhbmNlLiANCg0KV291bGQgaXQgaGVs cCBpZiBJIHN0YXJ0ZWQgYSBuZXcgZG9vZGxlIHBvbGwgbG9va2luZyBmb3IgYSBiZXR0ZXIgdGlt ZSBzbG90IG9yIGlzIHRoZSBjdXJyZW50IHNsb3Qg4oCcb2vigJ0gYW5kIHdlIGFsbCBqdXN0IG5l ZWRlZCBhIGJyZWF0aGVyIGFmdGVyIHRyYXZlbGluZz8gDQoNCg0KLSBtYXgg From nobody Wed Nov 11 07:42:20 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 029251B2A8F for ; 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Thu, 12 Nov 2015 09:57:41 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: "Max Pritikin \(pritikin\)" In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.3-dev; GNU Emacs 24.4.2 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Sender: mcr@sandelman.ca Archived-At: Cc: anima-bootstrap Subject: Re: [Anima-bootstrap] minimal meeting this morning post yokohama X-BeenThere: anima-bootstrap@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for the bootstrap design team of the ANIMA WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 14:57:44 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Max Pritikin (pritikin) wrote: > Only Toerless and myself joined this morning. We briefly discussed the > thread re ACP & GRASP layering that Richardson started but other than > that shut down the discussion for lack of attendance. Sorry, was recovering from travel and had sick kid at home.. I didn't mean = to fall asleep on the couch watching cartoons :-) > Would it help if I started a new doodle poll looking for a better time > slot or is the current slot =E2=80=9Cok=E2=80=9D and we all just need= ed a > breather after traveling? Breather, but the time is not great for me anymore. (I know I will be unavailable next week for instance) =2D- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBVkSo4YCLcPvd0N1lAQJ1Bgf/Z8YIUTWmf+LKc19QQSXgpjpKtVLm3aQF 3Ut9jmXGpTYZ4J319JrKlV1PhAr0exlZX6CgFPfvi/AtIsWTAd5G3mOOg7pm7ZAO a7QCWX8j27hflfSEF7Mjx0ze861qVMZ7z+CE+DAOFTSMgr/yzUmZ466J00c0W4ln 9HGgM7k39lCco/Qhvhq2/lKh9/oQmALnNVkRxXre3xiom21Ri1c80swA120hjkcS ryQYrWMbJYtfLr4udLxXHFjyedzZYJ3EhaGEb6p4OAwamy6CeJ6skWTrOEDFB8x1 9+yuXYt6krZHax24gsvHcodgSQOgGQ1jIZyiZL/e+rQAfRpaZcpALg== =FpKl -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Fri Nov 20 12:47:59 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD78B1B3D99 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 12:47:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.086 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.086 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7w2pxLIM3-dl for ; 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d="scan'208";a="210557711" Received: from alln-core-2.cisco.com ([173.36.13.135]) by alln-iport-8.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 20 Nov 2015 20:47:52 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-015.cisco.com (xch-aln-015.cisco.com [173.36.7.25]) by alln-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tAKKlqeY017836 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 20:47:52 GMT Received: from xch-aln-013.cisco.com (173.36.7.23) by XCH-ALN-015.cisco.com (173.36.7.25) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 14:47:51 -0600 Received: from xch-aln-013.cisco.com ([173.36.7.23]) by XCH-ALN-013.cisco.com ([173.36.7.23]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Fri, 20 Nov 2015 14:47:51 -0600 From: "Max Pritikin (pritikin)" To: anima-bootstrap Thread-Topic: DOODLE POLL: Bootstrap Design Meeting Rescheduling Thread-Index: AQHRI9S5y3717YezOESWMaYZy018Sg== Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 20:47:51 +0000 Message-ID: <31DBE67A-30DD-48E9-A533-B854A5B4C79C@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.99.106.3] Content-Type: text/plain; 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Tue, 24 Nov 2015 19:26:37 GMT Received: from xch-aln-013.cisco.com (173.36.7.23) by XCH-RCD-004.cisco.com (173.37.102.14) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 13:26:37 -0600 Received: from xch-aln-013.cisco.com ([173.36.7.23]) by XCH-ALN-013.cisco.com ([173.36.7.23]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 13:26:36 -0600 From: "Max Pritikin (pritikin)" To: anima-bootstrap Thread-Topic: [Anima-bootstrap] DOODLE POLL: Bootstrap Design Meeting Rescheduling Thread-Index: AQHRI9S5FmJRmb6U5kmz2FigH3LtsZ6r+P0A Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 19:26:36 +0000 Message-ID: <1049515D-3512-441F-B14B-ED8FBE3A1EF6@cisco.com> References: <31DBE67A-30DD-48E9-A533-B854A5B4C79C@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <31DBE67A-30DD-48E9-A533-B854A5B4C79C@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.99.106.3] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <1810C5E1DDBCDD43853CFAFC8E7E6395@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "Toerless Eckert \(eckert\)" , Kent Watsen Subject: Re: [Anima-bootstrap] DOODLE POLL: Bootstrap Design Meeting Rescheduling X-BeenThere: anima-bootstrap@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for the bootstrap design team of the ANIMA WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 19:26:41 -0000 DQpGb2xrcywgDQoNCkN1cnJlbnRseSAzIHBlb3BsZSBpbiBhZGRpdGlvbiB0byBteXNlbGYgaGF2 ZSBmaWxsZWQgb3V0IHRoZSBkb29kbGUgcG9sbC4gDQoNClRoZSBvbmx5IHNsb3QgdGhhdCBoYXMg ZXZlcnlib2R5IGFibGUgdG8gYXR0ZW5kIHNvIGZhciBpcyBUaHVyc2RheSBhdCAxMGFtICh0aGlz IHdlZWsgdGhhdCBpcyBvZiBjb3Vyc2UgVGhhbmtzZ2l2aW5nIGFuZCBJIGRvbuKAmXQgZXhwZWN0 IGFueWJvZHkgd291bGQgYmUgdGhlcmUpLiBXaGVuIHlvdSBmaWxsIHlvdXIgaW5mb3JtYXRpb24g aW4gcGxlYXNlIHN0cmFpbiB0byBoZWxwIGZpbmQgYSBzbG90IGV2ZXJ5Ym9keSBjYW4gam9pbi4g DQoNCknigJl2ZSBhZGRlZCBhIGNvdXBsZSBtb3JlIHBlb3BsZSB0byB0aGlzIGVtYWlsIGJ1dCBw ZXJoYXBzIFRvZXJsZXNzIG9yIFNoZW5nIGhhcyBkaXJlY3QgZW1haWxzIGZvciB0aGUgb3RoZXIg 4oCcdGVhbSBtZW1iZXJz4oCdIGFuZCBjb3VsZCBwaW5nIHRoZW0gZGlyZWN0bHk/IChUaGVpciBl bWFpbCBhZGRyIGlzbuKAmXQgbGlzdGVkIG9uIHRoZSBib290c3RyYXAgd2lraSkuICANCg0KLSBt YXgNCg0KPiBPbiBOb3YgMjAsIDIwMTUsIGF0IDE6NDcgUE0sIE1heCBQcml0aWtpbiAocHJpdGlr aW4pIDxwcml0aWtpbkBjaXNjby5jb20+IHdyb3RlOg0KPiANCj4gDQo+IEFOSU1BIGJvb3RzdHJh cCBkZXNpZ24gdGVhbSBoYXMgYmVlbiBtZWV0aW5nIG9uIFdlZCBtb3JuaW5nIGJ1dCBhdHRlbmRh bmNlIGhhcyBiZWVuIGxpZ2h0IHdpdGggbXVsdGlwbGUgY29uZmxpY3RzIGxhdGVseS4gVGhpcyBw b2xsIGlzIHRvIHNlZSBpZiBhIG5ldyB0aW1lIGNhbiBiZSBmb3VuZC4NCj4gDQo+IFBsZWFzZSBm aWxsIGluIHRoaXMgcG9sbCBpZiB5b3XigJlkIGxpa2UgdG8gYmUgam9pbmluZyB0aGUgYm9vdHN0 cmFwIGRlc2lnbiB0ZWFtIGNhbGxzIGJ1dCBoYXZlbuKAmXQgYmVlbiBhYmxlIHRvIGR1ZSB0byBz Y2hlZHVsaW5nIGNvbmZsaWN0cy4gDQo+IA0KPiBTb21lIG5vdGVzOg0KPiANCj4gSSBhcmJpdHJh cmlseSBibG9ja2VkIHNvbWUgdGltZXMgZm9yIHRoZSBtZWV0aW5ncy4gSWYgTk9ORSBvZiB0aGVz ZSB3b3JrIHdlIGNhbiB0cnkgdG8gZmluZCBzb21lIG90aGVyIHNsb3RzIChwbGVhc2Ugc3VnZ2Vz dCkuIA0KPiANCj4gVGhlIHBvbGwgaXMgZm9yIGFuIGVudGlyZSB3ZWVrIG9mIGRheXMuLi4gYnV0 IHRoZSBkYXRlIGl0c2VsZiBkb2VzbuKAmXQgbWF0dGVyLiBQbGVhc2Ugc2VsZWN0IHRoZSB0aW1l IHRoYXQgd29ya3MgbW9zdCBvZnRlbiBmb3IgeW91IGZvciBhIHJlY3VycmluZyBtZWV0aW5nLiAN Cj4gDQo+IFRoZSB0aW1lem9uZSBpcyBzZXQgZm9yIGNlbnRyYWwgdGltZeKApiBidXQgdGltZSB6 b25lIHN1cHBvcnQgaXMgZW5hYmxlZC4gSnVzdCByZW1lbWJlciB0byBzd2l0Y2ggdGhpcyB0byB5 b3VyIHRpbWUgem9uZSBiZWZvcmUgZmlsbGluZyBpbiB3aGljaCB0aW1lcyB5b3Ugd291bGQgYmUg YXZhaWxhYmxlLiANCj4gDQo+IFBsZWFzZSBlbnRlciB5b3VyIG5hbWUgaW4gdGhlIGlucHV0IGZp ZWxkIGFuZCBjaGVjayB0aGUgYm94IGZvciB0aW1lcyB0aGF0IHlvdSBhcmUgYXZhaWxhYmxlLg0K PiANCj4gaHR0cDovL2Rvb2RsZS5jb20vcG9sbC84OXQ2djdtcnZ0djl0eGc3DQo+IA0KPiANCj4g LSBtYXgNCj4gX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18N Cj4gQW5pbWEtYm9vdHN0cmFwIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KPiBBbmltYS1ib290c3RyYXBAaWV0Zi5v cmcNCj4gaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9hbmltYS1ib290c3Ry YXANCg0K From nobody Tue Nov 24 12:12:54 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD6A31A8942 for ; 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bh=BhIejfD/F8zAQcHSWdciy+MtYe3w+oTphSgx3qsHVtg=; b=cscu+wUkfBdgvmtuJ2KUaUkq6EB9x6e8I6Txj2hbq/SxQa8T1Za0ih64 8RDLIEttmHuHsO3FMGmc1xhaKkoiho5J3wZ6Ra0NbBajqEvmiCryMZZCd Uz3FnzdYKa7qSIzUGlU/Len+BHcxxMDuBGiSqUP7sFuAGXUJc7HUYZ9fV w=; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,339,1444694400"; d="scan'208";a="47754755" Received: from alln-core-8.cisco.com ([173.36.13.141]) by rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 24 Nov 2015 20:12:50 +0000 Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (mcast-linux1.cisco.com [172.27.244.121]) by alln-core-8.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tAOKCoK2017458 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 24 Nov 2015 20:12:50 GMT Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (localhost.cisco.com [127.0.0.1]) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id tAOKCnYR030787; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 12:12:49 -0800 Received: (from eckert@localhost) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id tAOKCnh5030785; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 12:12:49 -0800 Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 12:12:49 -0800 From: "Toerless Eckert (eckert)" To: "Max Pritikin (pritikin)" Message-ID: <20151124201249.GB29056@cisco.com> References: <31DBE67A-30DD-48E9-A533-B854A5B4C79C@cisco.com> <1049515D-3512-441F-B14B-ED8FBE3A1EF6@cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1049515D-3512-441F-B14B-ED8FBE3A1EF6@cisco.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i Archived-At: Cc: anima-bootstrap , Kent Watsen Subject: Re: [Anima-bootstrap] DOODLE POLL: Bootstrap Design Meeting Rescheduling X-BeenThere: anima-bootstrap@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for the bootstrap design team of the ANIMA WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 20:12:52 -0000 Ok, i am a bit confused: The dates show dates for this week, so right now i just filled in the remaining possible dates for this week (where i'll be in Denver and there is thanksgiving). Thats probably wrong, right ? You mean to use this to decide for a regular meeting time, right ? Pls advise, and i can update the time slots fitting "normally". What other possible team members do you have in mind ? I can check of course the list of emails subscribed to anima-bootstrap, but those folks should have received the doodle poll anyhow. Cheers Toerless On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 07:26:36PM +0000, Max Pritikin (pritikin) wrote: > > Folks, > > Currently 3 people in addition to myself have filled out the doodle poll. > > The only slot that has everybody able to attend so far is Thursday at 10am (this week that is of course Thanksgiving and I don???t expect anybody would be there). When you fill your information in please strain to help find a slot everybody can join. > > I???ve added a couple more people to this email but perhaps Toerless or Sheng has direct emails for the other ???team members??? and could ping them directly? (Their email addr isn???t listed on the bootstrap wiki). > > - max > > > On Nov 20, 2015, at 1:47 PM, Max Pritikin (pritikin) wrote: > > > > > > ANIMA bootstrap design team has been meeting on Wed morning but attendance has been light with multiple conflicts lately. This poll is to see if a new time can be found. > > > > Please fill in this poll if you???d like to be joining the bootstrap design team calls but haven???t been able to due to scheduling conflicts. > > > > Some notes: > > > > I arbitrarily blocked some times for the meetings. If NONE of these work we can try to find some other slots (please suggest). > > > > The poll is for an entire week of days... but the date itself doesn???t matter. Please select the time that works most often for you for a recurring meeting. > > > > The timezone is set for central time??? but time zone support is enabled. Just remember to switch this to your time zone before filling in which times you would be available. > > > > Please enter your name in the input field and check the box for times that you are available. > > > > http://doodle.com/poll/89t6v7mrvtv9txg7 > > > > > > - max > > _______________________________________________ > > Anima-bootstrap mailing list > > Anima-bootstrap@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima-bootstrap From nobody Tue Nov 24 12:38:52 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B8831A8955 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 12:38:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.086 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.086 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, 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15.0.1104.5; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 14:38:47 -0600 Received: from xch-aln-013.cisco.com ([173.36.7.23]) by XCH-ALN-013.cisco.com ([173.36.7.23]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 14:38:47 -0600 From: "Max Pritikin (pritikin)" To: "Toerless Eckert (eckert)" Thread-Topic: [Anima-bootstrap] DOODLE POLL: Bootstrap Design Meeting Rescheduling Thread-Index: AQHRI9S5FmJRmb6U5kmz2FigH3LtsZ6r+P0AgAAM6YCAAAdAAA== Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 20:38:47 +0000 Message-ID: References: <31DBE67A-30DD-48E9-A533-B854A5B4C79C@cisco.com> <1049515D-3512-441F-B14B-ED8FBE3A1EF6@cisco.com> <20151124201249.GB29056@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <20151124201249.GB29056@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.99.106.3] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: anima-bootstrap , Kent Watsen Subject: Re: [Anima-bootstrap] DOODLE POLL: Bootstrap Design Meeting Rescheduling X-BeenThere: anima-bootstrap@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for the bootstrap design team of the ANIMA WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 20:38:51 -0000 DQo+IE9uIE5vdiAyNCwgMjAxNSwgYXQgMToxMiBQTSwgVG9lcmxlc3MgRWNrZXJ0IChlY2tlcnQp IDxlY2tlcnRAY2lzY28uY29tPiB3cm90ZToNCj4gDQo+IE9rLCBpIGFtIGEgYml0IGNvbmZ1c2Vk OiBUaGUgZGF0ZXMgc2hvdyBkYXRlcyBmb3IgdGhpcyB3ZWVrLA0KPiBzbyByaWdodCBub3cgaSBq dXN0IGZpbGxlZCBpbiB0aGUgcmVtYWluaW5nIHBvc3NpYmxlIGRhdGVzIGZvciB0aGlzDQo+IHdl ZWsNCj4gKHdoZXJlIGknbGwgYmUgaW4gRGVudmVyIGFuZCB0aGVyZSBpcyB0aGFua3NnaXZpbmcp LiBUaGF0cw0KPiBwcm9iYWJseSB3cm9uZywgcmlnaHQgPyBZb3UgbWVhbiB0byB1c2UgdGhpcyB0 byBkZWNpZGUgZm9yIGEgcmVndWxhcg0KPiBtZWV0aW5nIHRpbWUsIHJpZ2h0ID8gUGxzIGFkdmlz 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([2001:df0:0:2006:c0da:ac17:5f6d:8e76]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id h69sm16232888pfj.66.2015.11.24.13.19.03 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 24 Nov 2015 13:19:06 -0800 (PST) To: "Max Pritikin (pritikin)" , anima-bootstrap References: <31DBE67A-30DD-48E9-A533-B854A5B4C79C@cisco.com> <1049515D-3512-441F-B14B-ED8FBE3A1EF6@cisco.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: <5654D44B.60906@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 10:19:07 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1049515D-3512-441F-B14B-ED8FBE3A1EF6@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Cc: "Toerless Eckert \(eckert\)" , Kent Watsen Subject: Re: [Anima-bootstrap] DOODLE POLL: Bootstrap Design Meeting Rescheduling X-BeenThere: anima-bootstrap@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for the bootstrap design team of the ANIMA WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 21:19:09 -0000 I've responded, but please don't take my "vote" as very important - I'm here mainly to watch for issues that directly affect GRASP, rather than to contribute. Regards Brian On 25/11/2015 08:26, Max Pritikin (pritikin) wrote: >=20 > Folks,=20 >=20 > Currently 3 people in addition to myself have filled out the doodle pol= l.=20 >=20 > The only slot that has everybody able to attend so far is Thursday at 1= 0am (this week that is of course Thanksgiving and I don=E2=80=99t expect = anybody would be there). When you fill your information in please strain = to help find a slot everybody can join.=20 >=20 > I=E2=80=99ve added a couple more people to this email but perhaps Toerl= ess or Sheng has direct emails for the other =E2=80=9Cteam members=E2=80=9D= and could ping them directly? (Their email addr isn=E2=80=99t listed on = the bootstrap wiki). =20 >=20 > - max >=20 >> On Nov 20, 2015, at 1:47 PM, Max Pritikin (pritikin) wrote: >> >> >> ANIMA bootstrap design team has been meeting on Wed morning but attend= ance has been light with multiple conflicts lately. This poll is to see i= f a new time can be found. >> >> Please fill in this poll if you=E2=80=99d like to be joining the boots= trap design team calls but haven=E2=80=99t been able to due to scheduling= conflicts.=20 >> >> Some notes: >> >> I arbitrarily blocked some times for the meetings. If NONE of these wo= rk we can try to find some other slots (please suggest).=20 >> >> The poll is for an entire week of days... but the date itself doesn=E2= =80=99t matter. Please select the time that works most often for you for = a recurring meeting.=20 >> >> The timezone is set for central time=E2=80=A6 but time zone support is= enabled. Just remember to switch this to your time zone before filling i= n which times you would be available.=20 >> >> Please enter your name in the input field and check the box for times = that you are available. >> >> http://doodle.com/poll/89t6v7mrvtv9txg7 >> >> >> - max >> _______________________________________________ >> Anima-bootstrap mailing list >> Anima-bootstrap@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima-bootstrap >=20 From nobody Tue Nov 24 13:31:10 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C6CC1A8A58 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 13:31:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.085 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.085 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, 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X-Files: Screen Shot 2015-11-24 at 2.28.30 PM.jpeg : 30357 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0D/AgC51VRW/5ldJa1egztTbwa+OgENg?= =?us-ascii?q?WQDFwEJgQ2EYQIcgSc4FAEBAQEBAQGBCoQ1AQEEAQEBIEsLEAIBCB0BAQEKFQM?= =?us-ascii?q?CAgIFEAEJBQELFBECBA4EAQYIiAsDEg2tXIsuDYRqAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QEBAQEBDwmIZIJuglOBVxEBNYMEL4EVBY0hiTQBhDtphheBdoFbSYN4jmeDY4N?= =?us-ascii?q?xAR8BAUKCER2BVnIBg2o6gQcBAQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,339,1444694400"; d="jpeg'145?scan'145,208,217,145";a="211648139" Received: from rcdn-core-2.cisco.com ([173.37.93.153]) by alln-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 24 Nov 2015 21:31:04 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-003.cisco.com (xch-aln-003.cisco.com [173.36.7.13]) by rcdn-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tAOLV4pT031094 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 24 Nov 2015 21:31:04 GMT Received: from xch-aln-013.cisco.com (173.36.7.23) by 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Wed, 25 Nov 2015 05:10:12 -0800 Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 05:10:12 -0800 From: "Toerless Eckert (eckert)" To: Robert Cragie Message-ID: <20151125131012.GG29056@cisco.com> References: <31DBE67A-30DD-48E9-A533-B854A5B4C79C@cisco.com> <1049515D-3512-441F-B14B-ED8FBE3A1EF6@cisco.com> <5654D44B.60906@gmail.com> <66260958-ED53-4308-9D20-B70BEB38641C@cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i Archived-At: Cc: "Max Pritikin \(pritikin\)" , anima-bootstrap , Kent Watsen Subject: Re: [Anima-bootstrap] DOODLE POLL: Bootstrap Design Meeting Rescheduling X-BeenThere: anima-bootstrap@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for the bootstrap design team of the ANIMA WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 13:10:16 -0000 Thanks, Robert I found your insight when we discused bootstrap for example re. TTLS and the like extremely helpfull. Is there any specific adjacency with ACE you're intersted in that we're not covering ? Cheers Toerless On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 12:00:23PM +0000, Robert Cragie wrote: > I???m not sure I???ll be participating any more hence not contributing to the Doodle poll. Whilst ANIMA bootstrapping overlaps with the concepts in ACE, it seems distinct and divergent from the discussions we are having there so I will focus on that area whilst keeping an eye on developments in ANIMA. > > Robert > > From: Anima-bootstrap [mailto:anima-bootstrap-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Max Pritikin (pritikin) > Sent: 24 November 2015 21:31 > To: Brian E Carpenter > Cc: Toerless Eckert (eckert); anima-bootstrap; Kent Watsen > Subject: Re: [Anima-bootstrap] DOODLE POLL: Bootstrap Design Meeting Rescheduling > > Thanks. As you all can tell there isn???t an obvious winner > > [cid:image001.jpg@01D12778.DD1143B0] > - max > > > On Nov 24, 2015, at 2:19 PM, Brian E Carpenter > wrote: > > I've responded, but please don't take my "vote" as very > important - I'm here mainly to watch for issues that > directly affect GRASP, rather than to contribute. > > Regards > Brian > > On 25/11/2015 08:26, Max Pritikin (pritikin) wrote: > > > Folks, > > Currently 3 people in addition to myself have filled out the doodle poll. > > The only slot that has everybody able to attend so far is Thursday at 10am (this week that is of course Thanksgiving and I don???t expect anybody would be there). When you fill your information in please strain to help find a slot everybody can join. > > I???ve added a couple more people to this email but perhaps Toerless or Sheng has direct emails for the other ???team members??? and could ping them directly? (Their email addr isn???t listed on the bootstrap wiki). > > - max > > > On Nov 20, 2015, at 1:47 PM, Max Pritikin (pritikin) > wrote: > > > ANIMA bootstrap design team has been meeting on Wed morning but attendance has been light with multiple conflicts lately. This poll is to see if a new time can be found. > > Please fill in this poll if you???d like to be joining the bootstrap design team calls but haven???t been able to due to scheduling conflicts. > > Some notes: > > I arbitrarily blocked some times for the meetings. If NONE of these work we can try to find some other slots (please suggest). > > The poll is for an entire week of days... but the date itself doesn???t matter. Please select the time that works most often for you for a recurring meeting. > > The timezone is set for central time??? but time zone support is enabled. Just remember to switch this to your time zone before filling in which times you would be available. > > Please enter your name in the input field and check the box for times that you are available. > > http://doodle.com/poll/89t6v7mrvtv9txg7 > > > - max > _______________________________________________ > Anima-bootstrap mailing list > Anima-bootstrap@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima-bootstrap > > > > IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you. -- --- Toerless Eckert, eckert@cisco.com From nobody Wed Nov 25 06:54:50 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 980B41A6FE5 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 06:54:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.587 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.587 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GtcyLQnAG9M8 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 06:54:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BCF9E1AC3A7 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 06:54:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 378D52009E for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 09:59:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 6EFFD63753; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 09:54:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CE12636C4 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 09:54:45 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: anima-bootstrap X-Attribution: mcr X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.3-dev; GNU Emacs 24.4.2 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Sender: mcr@sandelman.ca Archived-At: Subject: [Anima-bootstrap] IoT and scope of bootstrap X-BeenThere: anima-bootstrap@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for the bootstrap design team of the ANIMA WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 14:54:49 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain I wrote some text this morning to clarify how IoT is included/excluded. see: https://github.com/ietf-roll/anima-bootstrap/commits/master (maybe would have been cleaner had I made it a pull request). I also added a note about ACE, which I'll put in another email. +
+ + Questions have been posed as to whether this solution is suitable + in general for Internet of Things (IoT) networks. In general the + answer is no, but the terminology of is + best used to describe the boundaries. + + + The entire solution described in this document is aimed in general + at non-constrained (i.e. class 2+) devices operating on a + non-Challenged network. + The entire solution described here is not intended to be useable as-is + by constrained devices operating on challenged networks (such as + 802.15.4 LLNs). + + + In many target applications, the systems + involved are large router platforms with multi-gigabit + inter-connections, mounted in controlled access data centers. But + this solution is not exclusive to the large, it is intended to + scale to thousands of devices located in hostile environments, such + as ISP provided CPE devices which are drop-shipped to the end user. + The situation where an order is fulfilled from distributed + warehouse from a common stock and shipped directly to the target + location at the request of the domain owner is explicitely + supported. That stock ("SKU") could be provided to a number of + potential domain owners, and the eventual domain owner will not + know a-priori which device will go to which location. + + + Specifically, there are protocol aspects described here which might + result in congestion collapse or energy-exhaustion of intermediate + battery powered routers in an LLN. Those types of networks SHOULD + NOT use this solution. + + + The imprint protocol described here could, however, be used by + non-energy constrained devices joining a non-constrained network + (for instance, smart light bulbs are usually mains powered, and + speak 802.11). It could also be used by non-constrained devices + across a non-energy constrained, but challenged network (such as + 802.15.4). + + + Some aspects are in scope for constrained devices on challenged + networks: the certificate contents, and the process by which the + four questions above are resolved is in scope. It is simply the + actual on-the-wire imprint protocol which is likely inappropriate. + +
-- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBVlXLsICLcPvd0N1lAQJDjQgAlNPaXqA307UgbY29Q0vGxO8PbHD9BqyR JML7fgXxn5GqiPuayVj+jK+y6631DXuidAmld8tJIClhhQU1NLUvfzacms7GiqB2 v5M2eHg26mY6uk238Gtggi3VpQVkpMQPGPlYcKs/VKRcpt+fTX/WnZ0I+K7l2CcS spJUhwaMozI2xH/U/8pG7Lxvgw8EjjsYhByNti6WOQF79mHTlN24tJKCpmrF0L1x o/Xi6PrYjKAGqqYN1Jl+JqTr52+DZmObtOJVQV8ayS0bsV/0haIfh5EvZ/f+aeHZ Jy/c8rSWW+jBXbeFX6m6z0GcIX0a1jeCEdk3u8SsYnN1pd/qxY+Lzg== =2jtJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Wed Nov 25 07:09:26 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9DB81B2DBF for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 07:09:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -12.385 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-12.385 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zfChXMTB7Fv6 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 07:09:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from alln-iport-2.cisco.com (alln-iport-2.cisco.com [173.37.142.89]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 220111B2DE2 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 07:09:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=10314; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1448464152; x=1449673752; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: mime-version; bh=99uqSDVFQWbRgOyBebdT1xk/Ff+jycBJzgFrV4c201E=; b=PPzZ8IuoGORGK78/7SbZ3xghhhaSoIvz9HeVi0JWnoAX2+nTdcMOjIQp Ga6qhieOL5LF0AWegGmwG8LxBz2rTH1+Mr+7kZRD6AJfmord5mLwwnPYv U0NkwsXgymt3nardVM6Dg2jlMJaz0xTnt9YCTaT9T+Fa74ky6RNGK7L3A w=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0CdAADwzVVW/5hdJa1EFwOCbg8+U28Gv?= =?us-ascii?q?jsBDYEABWEjhWwCgUA4FAEBAQEBAQGBCoQ0AQEBAgItOSECAgEIEQQBARUEDAo?= =?us-ascii?q?bBhEdBwEBAQEDARIIiBEDEg07skyGBQ2EbAEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?RgEhlCEfoFAAYESgWgBAQwzDBoHhBAFiCOONAGFJ4VUQ4FvgWMWhCuOa4Nkg3E?= =?us-ascii?q?BHwEBQoIRHYEHT3IBg2o6gQcBAQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,343,1444694400"; d="scan'208,217";a="210651859" Received: from rcdn-core-1.cisco.com ([173.37.93.152]) by alln-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 25 Nov 2015 15:09:10 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-015.cisco.com (xch-rcd-015.cisco.com [173.37.102.25]) by rcdn-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tAPF9AM5010252 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 25 Nov 2015 15:09:11 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-006.cisco.com (173.37.102.16) by XCH-RCD-015.cisco.com (173.37.102.25) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 09:09:10 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-006.cisco.com ([173.37.102.16]) by XCH-RCD-006.cisco.com ([173.37.102.16]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 09:09:10 -0600 From: "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" To: "Toerless Eckert (eckert)" , "Max Pritikin (pritikin)" , "Jason Coleman (colemaj)" , "mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca" , "ietf@sandeep.de" , "alper.yegin@yegin.org" , "jiangsheng@huawei.com" , "leo.liubing@huawei.com" , "brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com" , "kwatsen@juniper.net" , "anima-bootstrap@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Weekly Webex invite for anima bootstrap team meeting Thread-Index: AdCq3XIOlfGppXwlS+iXiAzrSXhA3h8tYbcw Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 15:09:10 +0000 Message-ID: References: <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF22FF0411@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <3AA7118E69D7CD4BA3ECD5716BAF28DF22FF0411@xmb-rcd-x14.cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.55.238.132] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_b0bc02442e2c4dd0987b1f27868893c9XCHRCD006ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Anima-bootstrap] Weekly Webex invite for anima bootstrap team meeting X-BeenThere: anima-bootstrap@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for the bootstrap design team of the ANIMA WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 15:09:17 -0000 --_000_b0bc02442e2c4dd0987b1f27868893c9XCHRCD006ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jason and I are on the call, but apparently we're the only ones who missed = that today isn't happening. We'll log off now, if this is still on please send a mail. Michael -----Original Appointment----- From: Toerless Eckert (eckert) Sent: 20 June 2015 00:15 To: Toerless Eckert (eckert); Max Pritikin (pritikin); Jason Coleman = (colemaj); mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca; ietf@sandeep.de; Michael Behringer (mbehr= ing); alper.yegin@yegin.org; jiangsheng@huawei.com; leo.liubing@huawei.com;= brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com; kwatsen@juniper.net; anima-bootstrap@ietf.org Subject: Weekly Webex invite for anima bootstrap team meeting When: 25 November 2015 07:00-08:00 (UTC-08:00) Pacific Time (US & Can= ada). Where: Webex - Video/Audio So Wednesday 7 AM PST seems to be the best slot - it fits everybody e= xcept Brian and myself, and I think I can get the other meeting moved. Mich= ael Richardson also mentioned that we may be on/off 1 hour due to daylight = saving times, so let me shoot the meeting invite out here with outlook and = webex, and see if this still works for everybody else. Cheers Toerless -- Do not delete or change any of the following text. -- Join WebEx meeting Meeting number: 200 557 721 Meeting password: boot If you are the host, you can use the meeting host key to pass the hos= t privilege to another participant or to start the meeting from a video con= ferencing system or application. To find the host key for this meeting, go = here. Join by phone +1-866-432-9903 Call-in toll-free number (US/Canada) +1-408-525-6800 Call-in toll number (US/Canada) Access code: 200 557 721 Global call-in numbers | Toll-free calling r= estrictions Can't join the meeting? Contact support. IMPORTANT NOTICE: Please note that this WebEx service allows audio an= d other information sent during the session to be recorded, which may be di= scoverable in a legal matter. By joining this session, you automatically co= nsent to such recordings. If you do not consent to being recorded, discuss = your concerns with the host or do not join the session.. --_000_b0bc02442e2c4dd0987b1f27868893c9XCHRCD006ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jason and I are on the call, but apparently we= ’re the only ones who missed that today isn’t happening.
 
We’ll log off now, if this is still on p= lease send a mail.
 
Michael
 
 
-----Original Appointment-----
From: Toerless Eckert (eckert)
Sent: 20 June 2015 00:15
To: Toerless Eckert (eckert); Max Pritikin (pritikin); Jason Coleman= (colemaj); mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca; ietf@sandeep.de; Michael Behringer (= mbehring); alper.yegin@yegin.org; jiangsheng@huawei.com; leo.liubing@huawei= .com; brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com; kwatsen@juniper.net; anima-bootstrap@ietf.org
Subject: Weekly Webex invite for anima bootstrap team meeting
When: 25 November 2015 07:00-08:00 (UTC-08:00) Pacific Time (US &= ; Canada).
Where: Webex - Video/Audio
 
 
 
So Wednesday 7 AM PST seems to be the best slot – it fits ever= ybody except Brian and myself, and I think I can get the other meeting move= d. Michael Richardson also mentioned that we may be on/off 1 hour due to daylight saving times, so let me shoot the meet= ing invite out here with outlook and webex, and see if this still works for= everybody else.

Cheers
    Toerless
 
 
-= - Do not delete or change any of the = following text. -- &= nbsp;
 
 
Join WebEx meeting  
Meeting number: 200 557 721 
Meeting password: boot 
 

If you are the host, you can use the meeting host key to pass the hos= t privilege to another participant or to start the meeting from a video con= ferencing system or application. To find the host key for this meeting, go here.

Join by = phone = ;
+1-866-432-9903 Call-in toll-free number (US/Canada)=  
+1-408-525-6800 Call-in toll number (US/Canada) 
Access code: 200 557 721 
Global call-in numbers<= /u>&nbs= p; |  Toll-free calling restrictions=   
 
 
Can't join the meeting? Contact support.  
 
IMPORTANT NOTICE: Please note that this WebEx service allows audio a= nd other information sent during the session to be recorded, which may be d= iscoverable in a legal matter. By joining this session, you automatically consent to such recordings. If you do not c= onsent to being recorded, discuss your concerns with the host or do not joi= n the session..=
 
 --_000_b0bc02442e2c4dd0987b1f27868893c9XCHRCD006ciscocom_-- From nobody Wed Nov 25 07:15:02 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84B6A1B2DEF for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 07:15:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.186 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.186 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id M5qfRWCMNj0j for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 07:14:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3CB931A6FAD for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 07:14:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.21]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CC182009E for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 10:19:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id D7A0363753; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 10:14:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5F54636C4 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 10:14:57 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson to: anima-bootstrap In-Reply-To: <13717.1448463285@sandelman.ca> References: <13717.1448463285@sandelman.ca> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.3-dev; GNU Emacs 24.4.2 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Sender: mcr@sandelman.ca Archived-At: Subject: [Anima-bootstrap] ACE and scope of bootstrap X-BeenThere: anima-bootstrap@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for the bootstrap design team of the ANIMA WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 15:15:00 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain I wrote this to deal with any overlap with ACE. ACE's charter specifically has the bootstrap between constrained node and non-constrained helper (whether client or authorization server) out of scope. +
+ + The imprint protocol results in a secure relationship between the + domain registrar and the new device. If the new device is + sufficiently constrained that the ACE protocol should be leveraged + for operation, (see ), and the + domain registrar is also the Client Authorization Server or the + Authorization Server, then it may be appropriate to use this secure + channel to exchange ACE tokens. + +
I am uncomfortable with the words "ACE tokens", but I don't know what else to write. I mean the thing that would represent the trust between Client <-> CAS. I think that this may also be out-of-scope. I don't propose to make it in-scope for ANIMA, but to make it clear that ANIMA bootstrap will have created a (D)TLS connection which could be reused for something else. Or a stateless TLS session-resumption token could be exchanged for later use by ACE. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBVlXQb4CLcPvd0N1lAQLKvgf+JiwGZLWLRYhXRsuY6VWBmSp/4N29Rkym PTZhOETay+XQT/mYQXq9pBHQON2OLdpnMemiw++QMgx2ZYCyRjk34ht+fTmkzrAo ALD+rM6h8N+7L+7Gxt/6dVBFoq86jNVpaiYq1gLlW6BfZ4pDj+ksWBilLn7isTqj G+oPuW+6pYmzbyFlG822Z2/OBu/phs0Ku3BV3KRmyOlXpWPMB+Kb/MAVHzTv8XJU fhBqucAp+P8dazy0bPTiegEfgF81twnO5enzJj5CAEG6GOxUx/+wJz7W44UT3thg 5l3yLM84l1ltBpCjodtMI/54LBDY3/niAjWQYiV0vRW9eDtRT3mhaw== =W2se -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Wed Nov 25 10:53:41 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9BED1ABD36 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 10:53:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id guhXHfBUWlLy for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 10:53:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-x232.google.com (mail-pa0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6DE3C1A9128 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 10:53:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by padhx2 with SMTP id hx2so65277255pad.1 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 10:53:38 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=to:from:subject:organization:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=6mja+Tz6SdRegEdcqiX7yqVJ91srPUEiiXM3S2osrLY=; b=frh/d+MZEfIvNWx8nYWK5N0g0XAZrU8mlubfwdmZmgt+rmGXiPxtrmMcHvbzvloue/ H7rsY5VkjP65HfHB9VIzoi3DMBkSFams5BkextC7EqZSzig4VHMdJV/VeYwgs9jTXQ2O foB5nopb+EH1RApcAliLXoJhxdDShbUDGEtPqKiEX3GbrB1WT6mss/gy8ft6PyEm/kr2 9lK9W8z4wsW4ywoSJ/b0gGFNn9kTXuof+1TkOE4z/srdb7rLXe5GB0ZVPLzK6bcd1GPa zKbBE8OrX++IhzPRpa7PKVkRDGhFimOYnlGu0+Cvex5EwpT3ppkOafbguwYtWIfrOzzi EWeg== X-Received: by 10.66.190.66 with SMTP id go2mr54469454pac.114.1448477618114; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 10:53:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e007:639f:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781? ([2406:e007:639f:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f13sm22361575pfj.35.2015.11.25.10.53.36 for (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 25 Nov 2015 10:53:37 -0800 (PST) To: anima-bootstrap From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: <565603B6.3030508@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 07:53:42 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [Anima-bootstrap] Bootstrap discovery question X-BeenThere: anima-bootstrap@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for the bootstrap design team of the ANIMA WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 18:53:39 -0000 Here's a hopefully simple question from the GRASP side of the house. If the bootstrap uses GRASP discovery, what sort of locator will it be trying to discover? At the moment GRASP has four locator types in the design: - IPv6 address - IPv4 address - FQDN - URL It's been suggested by a reviewer that the URL option is unnecessary. Regards Brian From nobody Wed Nov 25 11:14:12 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D9D81AD36E; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 11:14:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.086 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.086 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fFJdYybHhHu3; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 11:14:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from alln-iport-7.cisco.com (alln-iport-7.cisco.com [173.37.142.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BA0C61A7D82; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 11:14:09 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=2186; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1448478849; x=1449688449; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references: mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=dsSJawVVrnWsriEz84exvnJevHOs8VeSOju5Bfp7lRw=; b=lcLKDtsKKjkEnq6iLsm6X5QTDTamBZuLlC0s3DlNWHPGywXbuSNp4opC uOd/1Ek0+AhF68sC5jGbQGlnETrFxRa1Jrh8JMez9nLc6EIO+GjsOJ5gd HvaYcIvqyquArDb1QR0jsTeitEVmWoHClwH6IviAw85kQgmZ0vg6gpbAc c=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0D4AQATCFZW/5NdJa1egztTb746AQ2BZ?= =?us-ascii?q?hcKhW4CgUM4FAEBAQEBAQGBCoQ1AQEEAQEBNzQLEAsYCSUPBRM2ExuIEw2+MgE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBARQEi1KJOQWNInaIP40sCYFchEGWQR8BAUKEJ?= =?us-ascii?q?R00hSwBAQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,343,1444694400"; d="scan'208";a="212116919" Received: from rcdn-core-11.cisco.com ([173.37.93.147]) by alln-iport-7.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 25 Nov 2015 19:14:09 +0000 Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (mcast-linux1.cisco.com [172.27.244.121]) by rcdn-core-11.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tAPJE8Nc031778 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 25 Nov 2015 19:14:08 GMT Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (localhost.cisco.com [127.0.0.1]) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id tAPJE8fB001373; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 11:14:08 -0800 Received: (from eckert@localhost) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id tAPJE7Qr001372; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 11:14:07 -0800 Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 11:14:07 -0800 From: Toerless Eckert To: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <20151125191407.GP29056@cisco.com> References: <565603B6.3030508@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <565603B6.3030508@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i Archived-At: Cc: anima-bootstrap , anima-signaling@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Anima-bootstrap] Bootstrap discovery question X-BeenThere: anima-bootstrap@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for the bootstrap design team of the ANIMA WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 19:14:11 -0000 [cc'ing signaling team ? (hopefully this is ok. to keep everybody in sync] Forget about bootstrap, but in general: IMHO, URL/URI is the most important locator. When someone looks for a service/objective, it ultimately needs to get everything to build a protocol connection to achieve this objective/connect-to-this-service. Which means so much more than just IP* adress, but also transport protocol, port, higher layer protocols, etc. pp. Why the heck would we want to have to reinvent messaging elements to reinvent signaling all those connection attributes if there is already one solution for this: URI. Example, bootstrap: The bootstrap proxy agent needs to discover the "an-registrar-enrollment" service (i just made up that name, somebody had to do it ;-). In return i think you would get back (according to RFC7030, 3.2.2): https://{:}/.well-known/est Of course we could support multiple enrollment protocols, but every proxy that does support rfc7030 would recognize this as a URI indicating RFC7030. This is because of /.well-known/est. And it then knows the necessary transport protocol pieces: IPv6 addr and port and use of HTTPS. As a rule of thumb for services where the locator is in the ACP, we would require IPv6 address so that we do not introduce the need for ACP-wide DNS host-name lookup and registration. If there is a way to reuse more/better our existing IETF toolset, please chime in. Cheers Toerless On Thu, Nov 26, 2015 at 07:53:42AM +1300, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Here's a hopefully simple question from the GRASP side of the house. > > If the bootstrap uses GRASP discovery, what sort of locator will > it be trying to discover? > > At the moment GRASP has four locator types in the design: > > - IPv6 address > - IPv4 address > - FQDN > - URL > > It's been suggested by a reviewer that the URL option is unnecessary. > > Regards > Brian > > _______________________________________________ > Anima-bootstrap mailing list > Anima-bootstrap@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima-bootstrap -- --- Toerless Eckert, eckert@cisco.com From nobody Wed Nov 25 11:30:09 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AD871B2DD6; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 11:30:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jNzYKazqvi87; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 11:30:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-x236.google.com (mail-pa0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AA9F11B2DD3; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 11:30:05 -0800 (PST) Received: by padhx2 with SMTP id hx2so66067743pad.1; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 11:30:05 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:organization:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=vPtD0ekifR5y0NS/DtuKDTwu7eix3zClWPOp5euw88M=; b=T8iLWNwWVmAN0VciKFDGKAdRrTCybaXCH00+CpfKf2uxklegnzQWRs48XywQ+hzYPB hrKs/YPtv2RxMJtgICTJkRA8ss6keiU/3JDA0ryGKQACHnRxy9IoMDUMDWMqUNwlbZ76 ISnSd1DJE3sycyS1Jw1/87RE1Owg1uVn4rtcj/fmCuqRphAmXQ+iLx0tnbOuHVTo1gz3 vlBEZvzmk02OWutO1yVn/l6xZaPD7h709Ze37slz+ibkee2gLj9eAJNJP3Fru60smz+h MEHwX/X5rlLYjLyCsD9SRZtiDMinL1ySmQhiuPfPxBXQfCr9HDF3eT9ahrGSQfiIjhVZ NxeQ== X-Received: by 10.66.192.193 with SMTP id hi1mr53648298pac.110.1448479805318; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 11:30:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e007:639f:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781? ([2406:e007:639f:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l84sm22469929pfb.15.2015.11.25.11.30.01 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 25 Nov 2015 11:30:03 -0800 (PST) To: Toerless Eckert References: <565603B6.3030508@gmail.com> <20151125191407.GP29056@cisco.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: <56560C3F.9030304@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 08:30:07 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20151125191407.GP29056@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: anima-bootstrap , anima-signaling@ietf.org, "Joel M. Halpern" Subject: Re: [Anima-bootstrap] Bootstrap discovery question X-BeenThere: anima-bootstrap@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for the bootstrap design team of the ANIMA WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 19:30:07 -0000 OK, I've cc'ed Joel as well since it was his review that triggered my question. Agreed, if we want GRASP discovery to be capable of serving as a general-purpose discovery tool, we don't really need to justify the FQDN or URI/URL options. Joel's point was essentially the same as what you say below ("where the locator is in the ACP, we would require IPv6 address so that we do not introduce the need for ACP-wide DNS host-name lookup and registration"). So the FQDN and URI/URL options are not for "normal" GRASP operation. Brian On 26/11/2015 08:14, Toerless Eckert wrote: > [cc'ing signaling team ? (hopefully this is ok. to keep everybody in sync] > > Forget about bootstrap, but in general: > > IMHO, URL/URI is the most important locator. When someone looks for a service/objective, > it ultimately needs to get everything to build a protocol connection to achieve this > objective/connect-to-this-service. Which means so much more than just IP* adress, but also > transport protocol, port, higher layer protocols, etc. pp. > > Why the heck would we want to have to reinvent messaging elements to reinvent > signaling all those connection attributes if there is already one solution for this: > URI. > > Example, bootstrap: The bootstrap proxy agent needs to discover the "an-registrar-enrollment" > service (i just made up that name, somebody had to do it ;-). In return i think you > would get back (according to RFC7030, 3.2.2): > > https://{:}/.well-known/est > > Of course we could support multiple enrollment protocols, but every proxy that does > support rfc7030 would recognize this as a URI indicating RFC7030. This is because of > /.well-known/est. And it then knows the necessary transport protocol pieces: IPv6 > addr and port and use of HTTPS. As a rule of thumb for services where the locator is > in the ACP, we would require IPv6 address so that we do not introduce the need for > ACP-wide DNS host-name lookup and registration. > > If there is a way to reuse more/better our existing IETF toolset, please chime in. > > Cheers > Toerless > > On Thu, Nov 26, 2015 at 07:53:42AM +1300, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> Here's a hopefully simple question from the GRASP side of the house. >> >> If the bootstrap uses GRASP discovery, what sort of locator will >> it be trying to discover? >> >> At the moment GRASP has four locator types in the design: >> >> - IPv6 address >> - IPv4 address >> - FQDN >> - URL >> >> It's been suggested by a reviewer that the URL option is unnecessary. >> >> Regards >> Brian >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Anima-bootstrap mailing list >> Anima-bootstrap@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima-bootstrap > From nobody Wed Nov 25 12:02:43 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03E7B1B2F22; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 12:02:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.602 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.602 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ze94wV7qbzFJ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 12:02:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 073481B2F1C; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 12:02:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E32D7241011; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 12:02:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at maila2.tigertech.net Received: from Joels-MacBook-Pro.local (209-255-163-147.ip.mcleodusa.net [209.255.163.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5D7F924099F; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 12:02:30 -0800 (PST) To: Brian E Carpenter , Toerless Eckert References: <565603B6.3030508@gmail.com> <20151125191407.GP29056@cisco.com> <56560C3F.9030304@gmail.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: <565613CC.1040903@joelhalpern.com> Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 15:02:20 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <56560C3F.9030304@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: anima-bootstrap , anima-signaling@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Anima-bootstrap] Bootstrap discovery question X-BeenThere: anima-bootstrap@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for the bootstrap design team of the ANIMA WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 20:02:42 -0000 Yes, the key for me is what these "locators" are for. If they are for Anima Applications, that makes sense. I can believe that there applications for which a URL is a good location. If they are for the bootstrap process itself, that seems problematic. I will also note in passing that trying to use a URL as a way of bundling several related but separate pieces of information seems problematic. Even burying the IP address and port number in the URL domain portion does not seem to be a good idea unless that same URL is what is to be used to send the resulting messages (for example if the service were on top of SOAP). Yours, Joel On 11/25/15 2:30 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > OK, I've cc'ed Joel as well since it was his review that triggered my question. > > Agreed, if we want GRASP discovery to be capable of serving as a general-purpose > discovery tool, we don't really need to justify the FQDN or URI/URL options. > Joel's point was essentially the same as what you say below ("where the locator > is in the ACP, we would require IPv6 address so that we do not introduce the need > for ACP-wide DNS host-name lookup and registration"). So the FQDN and URI/URL > options are not for "normal" GRASP operation. > > Brian > > On 26/11/2015 08:14, Toerless Eckert wrote: >> [cc'ing signaling team ? (hopefully this is ok. to keep everybody in sync] >> >> Forget about bootstrap, but in general: >> >> IMHO, URL/URI is the most important locator. When someone looks for a service/objective, >> it ultimately needs to get everything to build a protocol connection to achieve this >> objective/connect-to-this-service. Which means so much more than just IP* adress, but also >> transport protocol, port, higher layer protocols, etc. pp. >> >> Why the heck would we want to have to reinvent messaging elements to reinvent >> signaling all those connection attributes if there is already one solution for this: >> URI. >> >> Example, bootstrap: The bootstrap proxy agent needs to discover the "an-registrar-enrollment" >> service (i just made up that name, somebody had to do it ;-). In return i think you >> would get back (according to RFC7030, 3.2.2): >> >> https://{:}/.well-known/est >> >> Of course we could support multiple enrollment protocols, but every proxy that does >> support rfc7030 would recognize this as a URI indicating RFC7030. This is because of >> /.well-known/est. And it then knows the necessary transport protocol pieces: IPv6 >> addr and port and use of HTTPS. As a rule of thumb for services where the locator is >> in the ACP, we would require IPv6 address so that we do not introduce the need for >> ACP-wide DNS host-name lookup and registration. >> >> If there is a way to reuse more/better our existing IETF toolset, please chime in. >> >> Cheers >> Toerless >> >> On Thu, Nov 26, 2015 at 07:53:42AM +1300, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>> Here's a hopefully simple question from the GRASP side of the house. >>> >>> If the bootstrap uses GRASP discovery, what sort of locator will >>> it be trying to discover? >>> >>> At the moment GRASP has four locator types in the design: >>> >>> - IPv6 address >>> - IPv4 address >>> - FQDN >>> - URL >>> >>> It's been suggested by a reviewer that the URL option is unnecessary. >>> >>> Regards >>> Brian >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Anima-bootstrap mailing list >>> Anima-bootstrap@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima-bootstrap >> > From nobody Wed Nov 25 12:06:03 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FA6B1B2F28; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 12:06:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.086 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.086 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wBRqxWcypS6x; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 12:05:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from alln-iport-3.cisco.com (alln-iport-3.cisco.com [173.37.142.90]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 409271B2F26; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 12:05:58 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=4116; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1448481958; x=1449691558; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references: mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=pIFE1aKIKbtYQbDWCI2GgZB1gZ5jPOb7KHDA6quwipI=; b=CVMdWM+t1PTDukf1x5YUYcgRbW/ArDcEfaTNjkDWkKgy1e4NTILByF+W fZISj5qKGXO4WFZyAF/4Qawzza7ioKrV29xKEkIs/PN7olQxJPSokBIfX ZqiwcUcQT3ZNOrhA8qWjiJAbSOdXM11RIElQ1pp0PaTcsMHpSgbgPHS72 Q=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0D5AQAAFFZW/5pdJa1egztTb657j0IBD?= =?us-ascii?q?YFmFwqFbgKBRDgUAQEBAQEBAYEKhDQBAQEDAQEBATcPAwkZCwULCxMFCSUPBRE?= =?us-ascii?q?CNhMbiAsDBQ20DYo8AQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBGItSiTkFjSJ2hFeDa?= =?us-ascii?q?IUoiAQJgVyEQZZBHwEBQoIOAx2Bdx00AYUrAQEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,344,1444694400"; d="scan'208";a="211578839" Received: from rcdn-core-3.cisco.com ([173.37.93.154]) by alln-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 25 Nov 2015 20:05:57 +0000 Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (mcast-linux1.cisco.com [172.27.244.121]) by rcdn-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tAPK5u8r005635 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 25 Nov 2015 20:05:57 GMT Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (localhost.cisco.com [127.0.0.1]) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id tAPK5udM004139; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 12:05:56 -0800 Received: (from eckert@localhost) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id tAPK5u0Y004138; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 12:05:56 -0800 Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 12:05:56 -0800 From: Toerless Eckert To: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <20151125200556.GQ29056@cisco.com> References: <565603B6.3030508@gmail.com> <20151125191407.GP29056@cisco.com> <56560C3F.9030304@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <56560C3F.9030304@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i Archived-At: Cc: anima-bootstrap , anima-signaling@ietf.org, "Joel M. Halpern" Subject: Re: [Anima-bootstrap] Bootstrap discovery question X-BeenThere: anima-bootstrap@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for the bootstrap design team of the ANIMA WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 20:06:00 -0000 On Thu, Nov 26, 2015 at 08:30:07AM +1300, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > OK, I've cc'ed Joel as well since it was his review that triggered my question. > > Agreed, if we want GRASP discovery to be capable of serving as a general-purpose > discovery tool, we don't really need to justify the FQDN or URI/URL options. RIght. > Joel's point was essentially the same as what you say below ("where the locator > is in the ACP, we would require IPv6 address so that we do not introduce the need > for ACP-wide DNS host-name lookup and registration"). Yes, but as i outlined above, the IPv6 address alone is not sufficient because we also need other locator pieces (port, L4-protocoll security protocols, etc. pp). And all of that is in the URL. In fact, i was arguing that IP* address or FQDN are unnecessary as explicit locator objects. Just as in a browser: you enter www.foobar.com or 10.0.0.1, but its just an abbreviation for http://www.foobar.com or http://10.0.0.1. But abbreviations make only sense for human interfaces or if you're really in desparate need of saving bytes. I hope neither applies to GARP. If we really want abbreviations, we should really define it that way: locator field contains a URL or abbreviated URL. An abbreviated URL is only permissible if for the service requested there is a clear specification what the default parameters are that can be abbreviated away. > So the FQDN and URI/URL > options are not for "normal" GRASP operation. ?? Not clear . The other point i made was that we should mandate use of IPv6 addresses in the URL as long as it points to an objective in the ACP. Did you mean to refer to that piece ? > > On 26/11/2015 08:14, Toerless Eckert wrote: > > [cc'ing signaling team ? (hopefully this is ok. to keep everybody in sync] > > > > Forget about bootstrap, but in general: > > > > IMHO, URL/URI is the most important locator. When someone looks for a service/objective, > > it ultimately needs to get everything to build a protocol connection to achieve this > > objective/connect-to-this-service. Which means so much more than just IP* adress, but also > > transport protocol, port, higher layer protocols, etc. pp. > > > > Why the heck would we want to have to reinvent messaging elements to reinvent > > signaling all those connection attributes if there is already one solution for this: > > URI. > > > > Example, bootstrap: The bootstrap proxy agent needs to discover the "an-registrar-enrollment" > > service (i just made up that name, somebody had to do it ;-). In return i think you > > would get back (according to RFC7030, 3.2.2): > > > > https://{:}/.well-known/est > > > > Of course we could support multiple enrollment protocols, but every proxy that does > > support rfc7030 would recognize this as a URI indicating RFC7030. This is because of > > /.well-known/est. And it then knows the necessary transport protocol pieces: IPv6 > > addr and port and use of HTTPS. As a rule of thumb for services where the locator is > > in the ACP, we would require IPv6 address so that we do not introduce the need for > > ACP-wide DNS host-name lookup and registration. > > > > If there is a way to reuse more/better our existing IETF toolset, please chime in. > > > > Cheers > > Toerless > > > > On Thu, Nov 26, 2015 at 07:53:42AM +1300, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > >> Here's a hopefully simple question from the GRASP side of the house. > >> > >> If the bootstrap uses GRASP discovery, what sort of locator will > >> it be trying to discover? > >> > >> At the moment GRASP has four locator types in the design: > >> > >> - IPv6 address > >> - IPv4 address > >> - FQDN > >> - URL > >> > >> It's been suggested by a reviewer that the URL option is unnecessary. > >> > >> Regards > >> Brian > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Anima-bootstrap mailing list > >> Anima-bootstrap@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima-bootstrap > > -- --- Toerless Eckert, eckert@cisco.com From nobody Wed Nov 25 12:17:34 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EF581B2F55; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 12:17:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.086 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.086 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2xFJ7f7OLL13; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 12:17:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from alln-iport-4.cisco.com (alln-iport-4.cisco.com [173.37.142.91]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D2F961B2F4E; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 12:17:22 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=5326; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1448482642; x=1449692242; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references: mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=6MFSk1XRkdnceoh2FauSMcbg1w1FzEoKXpLQh/Rre0I=; b=bixmTnAOdqexwXvkKxI7utpf+N90pSmNtFBdQN5uVKn2SjUI1JZy2Vkf pSZ6TFdcbu6wSEkDoMEEhi32frpKqbXimWWt14rC10RbSaPeIzKpTFp9q YHtTfZIaUgHupE9ulT1Z1nuZpPlbbVcP2uQdb5r/DqxtFNSpSa3h+6Ti9 8=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0D5AQDXFlZW/4UNJK1egztTb74/AQ2BZ?= =?us-ascii?q?hcKhW4CgUQ4FAEBAQEBAQGBCoQ0AQEBAwEBAQE3NAsFCwsYCSUPBRM2ExuICwg?= =?us-ascii?q?NvkQBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEUBItSiTkFjSJ2iD+NLAmBXIRBlkEfA?= =?us-ascii?q?QFChCUdNIUsAQEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,344,1444694400"; d="scan'208";a="211358324" Received: from alln-core-11.cisco.com ([173.36.13.133]) by alln-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 25 Nov 2015 20:17:12 +0000 Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (mcast-linux1.cisco.com [172.27.244.121]) by alln-core-11.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tAPKHCI4016416 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 25 Nov 2015 20:17:12 GMT Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (localhost.cisco.com [127.0.0.1]) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id tAPKHBgw004750; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 12:17:11 -0800 Received: (from eckert@localhost) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id tAPKHB08004749; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 12:17:11 -0800 Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 12:17:11 -0800 From: Toerless Eckert To: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: <20151125201711.GR29056@cisco.com> References: <565603B6.3030508@gmail.com> <20151125191407.GP29056@cisco.com> <56560C3F.9030304@gmail.com> <565613CC.1040903@joelhalpern.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <565613CC.1040903@joelhalpern.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i Archived-At: Cc: anima-bootstrap , anima-signaling@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Anima-bootstrap] Bootstrap discovery question X-BeenThere: anima-bootstrap@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for the bootstrap design team of the ANIMA WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 20:17:24 -0000 On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 03:02:20PM -0500, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > Yes, the key for me is what these "locators" are for. If they are for > Anima Applications, that makes sense. I can believe that there > applications for which a URL is a good location. If they are for the > bootstrap process itself, that seems problematic. What is bad about rfc7030 ? https:////.wellknown/est How else would you want to indicate that you can support bootstrap via RFC7030 ? Thats how it's defined. Only important details is not to use an FQDN for the IP address of the URL. > I will also note in passing that trying to use a URL as a way of > bundling several related but separate pieces of information seems > problematic. Whot ??? Why the heck do we have URLs ? The pieces in a URL are not several, unrelated pieces of information. The idea is to have URLs describing the minimum necessary pieces of information to actually locate a service. > Even burying the IP address and port number in the URL > domain portion does not seem to be a good idea unless that same URL is > what is to be used to send the resulting messages (for example if the > service were on top of SOAP). The EST connection would be established to the IPv6 address in the URL, right. There is no need for hostname DNS in ACP. Hostnames are just an optimization for services provided by only one host. I haven't seen a requirement to make ACP ervice discovery depend on having this redundant layer. Btw: The rfc7030 trust model for https:// between client and registrar in the ACP is NOT based on the client believing registrar.domain is valid because of some bogus CA signed cert for "registrar.domain", but because of a) The connection runs across an end-to-end trusted/encrypted transport (ACP). b) The IPv6 address of the registrar and the client are derived from their certificates. Aka: This is similar to the "registrar.domain" trust, only that its mutual and not dependent on random CAs, but both registrar and client cert are from the same CA. Cheers Toerless > > Yours, > Joel > > On 11/25/15 2:30 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > >OK, I've cc'ed Joel as well since it was his review that triggered my > >question. > > > >Agreed, if we want GRASP discovery to be capable of serving as a > >general-purpose > >discovery tool, we don't really need to justify the FQDN or URI/URL > >options. > >Joel's point was essentially the same as what you say below ("where the > >locator > >is in the ACP, we would require IPv6 address so that we do not introduce > >the need > >for ACP-wide DNS host-name lookup and registration"). So the FQDN and > >URI/URL > >options are not for "normal" GRASP operation. > > > > Brian > > > >On 26/11/2015 08:14, Toerless Eckert wrote: > >>[cc'ing signaling team ? (hopefully this is ok. to keep everybody in sync] > >> > >>Forget about bootstrap, but in general: > >> > >>IMHO, URL/URI is the most important locator. When someone looks for a > >>service/objective, > >>it ultimately needs to get everything to build a protocol connection to > >>achieve this > >>objective/connect-to-this-service. Which means so much more than just IP* > >>adress, but also > >>transport protocol, port, higher layer protocols, etc. pp. > >> > >>Why the heck would we want to have to reinvent messaging elements to > >>reinvent > >>signaling all those connection attributes if there is already one > >>solution for this: > >>URI. > >> > >>Example, bootstrap: The bootstrap proxy agent needs to discover the > >>"an-registrar-enrollment" > >>service (i just made up that name, somebody had to do it ;-). In return i > >>think you > >>would get back (according to RFC7030, 3.2.2): > >> > >>https://{:}/.well-known/est > >> > >>Of course we could support multiple enrollment protocols, but every proxy > >>that does > >>support rfc7030 would recognize this as a URI indicating RFC7030. This is > >>because of > >>/.well-known/est. And it then knows the necessary transport protocol > >>pieces: IPv6 > >>addr and port and use of HTTPS. As a rule of thumb for services where the > >>locator is > >>in the ACP, we would require IPv6 address so that we do not introduce the > >>need for > >>ACP-wide DNS host-name lookup and registration. > >> > >>If there is a way to reuse more/better our existing IETF toolset, please > >>chime in. > >> > >>Cheers > >> Toerless > >> > >>On Thu, Nov 26, 2015 at 07:53:42AM +1300, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > >>>Here's a hopefully simple question from the GRASP side of the house. > >>> > >>>If the bootstrap uses GRASP discovery, what sort of locator will > >>>it be trying to discover? > >>> > >>>At the moment GRASP has four locator types in the design: > >>> > >>>- IPv6 address > >>>- IPv4 address > >>>- FQDN > >>>- URL > >>> > >>>It's been suggested by a reviewer that the URL option is unnecessary. > >>> > >>>Regards > >>> Brian > >>> > >>>_______________________________________________ > >>>Anima-bootstrap mailing list > >>>Anima-bootstrap@ietf.org > >>>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima-bootstrap > >> > > -- --- Toerless Eckert, eckert@cisco.com From nobody Wed Nov 25 12:21:03 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B420B1B2F59; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 12:21:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.602 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.602 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UJBIynMzCI90; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 12:20:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8D7C21B2F6D; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 12:20:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C3DE25371B; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 12:20:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at maila2.tigertech.net Received: from Joels-MacBook-Pro.local (209-255-163-147.ip.mcleodusa.net [209.255.163.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D750A24075F; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 12:20:56 -0800 (PST) To: Toerless Eckert References: <565603B6.3030508@gmail.com> <20151125191407.GP29056@cisco.com> <56560C3F.9030304@gmail.com> <565613CC.1040903@joelhalpern.com> <20151125201711.GR29056@cisco.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: <5656181E.4000908@joelhalpern.com> Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 15:20:46 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20151125201711.GR29056@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: anima-bootstrap , anima-signaling@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Anima-bootstrap] Bootstrap discovery question X-BeenThere: anima-bootstrap@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for the bootstrap design team of the ANIMA WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 20:21:01 -0000 There are two issues for me. First, as far as I can tell, 7030 actually runs over HTTP. As such, it makes good sense to use URLs. ACP and GRASP do not run over HTTP. Second, the document does not say that we use 7030 well known URLs. It says that you can use any old URL. I can believe that with suitable restrictions, there are URLs that can be used. But the document does not place any such restrictions. yours, Joel On 11/25/15 3:17 PM, Toerless Eckert wrote: > On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 03:02:20PM -0500, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >> Yes, the key for me is what these "locators" are for. If they are for >> Anima Applications, that makes sense. I can believe that there >> applications for which a URL is a good location. If they are for the >> bootstrap process itself, that seems problematic. > > What is bad about rfc7030 ? https:////.wellknown/est > > How else would you want to indicate that you can support bootstrap via RFC7030 ? > Thats how it's defined. Only important details is not to use an FQDN for the > IP address of the URL. > >> I will also note in passing that trying to use a URL as a way of >> bundling several related but separate pieces of information seems >> problematic. > > Whot ??? Why the heck do we have URLs ? The pieces in a URL are not several, > unrelated pieces of information. The idea is to have URLs describing the minimum > necessary pieces of information to actually locate a service. > >> Even burying the IP address and port number in the URL >> domain portion does not seem to be a good idea unless that same URL is >> what is to be used to send the resulting messages (for example if the >> service were on top of SOAP). > > The EST connection would be established to the IPv6 address in the URL, right. > > There is no need for hostname DNS in ACP. Hostnames are just an optimization > for services provided by only one host. I haven't seen a requirement to make > ACP ervice discovery depend on having this redundant layer. > > Btw: The rfc7030 trust model for https:// between client and registrar in the ACP is > NOT based on the client believing registrar.domain is valid because of some bogus > CA signed cert for "registrar.domain", but because of > > a) The connection runs across an end-to-end trusted/encrypted transport (ACP). > b) The IPv6 address of the registrar and the client are derived from their certificates. > Aka: This is similar to the "registrar.domain" trust, only that its mutual > and not dependent on random CAs, but both registrar and client cert are from the > same CA. > > Cheers > Toerless > >> >> Yours, >> Joel >> >> On 11/25/15 2:30 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>> OK, I've cc'ed Joel as well since it was his review that triggered my >>> question. >>> >>> Agreed, if we want GRASP discovery to be capable of serving as a >>> general-purpose >>> discovery tool, we don't really need to justify the FQDN or URI/URL >>> options. >>> Joel's point was essentially the same as what you say below ("where the >>> locator >>> is in the ACP, we would require IPv6 address so that we do not introduce >>> the need >>> for ACP-wide DNS host-name lookup and registration"). So the FQDN and >>> URI/URL >>> options are not for "normal" GRASP operation. >>> >>> Brian >>> >>> On 26/11/2015 08:14, Toerless Eckert wrote: >>>> [cc'ing signaling team ? (hopefully this is ok. to keep everybody in sync] >>>> >>>> Forget about bootstrap, but in general: >>>> >>>> IMHO, URL/URI is the most important locator. When someone looks for a >>>> service/objective, >>>> it ultimately needs to get everything to build a protocol connection to >>>> achieve this >>>> objective/connect-to-this-service. Which means so much more than just IP* >>>> adress, but also >>>> transport protocol, port, higher layer protocols, etc. pp. >>>> >>>> Why the heck would we want to have to reinvent messaging elements to >>>> reinvent >>>> signaling all those connection attributes if there is already one >>>> solution for this: >>>> URI. >>>> >>>> Example, bootstrap: The bootstrap proxy agent needs to discover the >>>> "an-registrar-enrollment" >>>> service (i just made up that name, somebody had to do it ;-). In return i >>>> think you >>>> would get back (according to RFC7030, 3.2.2): >>>> >>>> https://{:}/.well-known/est >>>> >>>> Of course we could support multiple enrollment protocols, but every proxy >>>> that does >>>> support rfc7030 would recognize this as a URI indicating RFC7030. This is >>>> because of >>>> /.well-known/est. And it then knows the necessary transport protocol >>>> pieces: IPv6 >>>> addr and port and use of HTTPS. As a rule of thumb for services where the >>>> locator is >>>> in the ACP, we would require IPv6 address so that we do not introduce the >>>> need for >>>> ACP-wide DNS host-name lookup and registration. >>>> >>>> If there is a way to reuse more/better our existing IETF toolset, please >>>> chime in. >>>> >>>> Cheers >>>> Toerless >>>> >>>> On Thu, Nov 26, 2015 at 07:53:42AM +1300, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>>>> Here's a hopefully simple question from the GRASP side of the house. >>>>> >>>>> If the bootstrap uses GRASP discovery, what sort of locator will >>>>> it be trying to discover? >>>>> >>>>> At the moment GRASP has four locator types in the design: >>>>> >>>>> - IPv6 address >>>>> - IPv4 address >>>>> - FQDN >>>>> - URL >>>>> >>>>> It's been suggested by a reviewer that the URL option is unnecessary. >>>>> >>>>> Regards >>>>> Brian >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Anima-bootstrap mailing list >>>>> Anima-bootstrap@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima-bootstrap >>>> >>> > From nobody Wed Nov 25 13:12:18 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18BAC1B3050; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 13:12:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bCq4_yBVvlkv; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 13:12:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-x229.google.com (mail-pa0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2F3701B304F; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 13:12:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by pacej9 with SMTP id ej9so68020055pac.2; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 13:12:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:organization:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=+W0ZBir9s9/9UiwPY1EzlbJ+jfYAjqGp6ah5raSFmS4=; b=XuyDIv8kFRlne7J+N0eK/p4Urv//PAER5CFT8xCRwDZ3X+pbwWs0TDhZy4m8O122Dd 3asFTLScQIuOPBSzMbfCpcGtNapcEpCq9LzW3JQi/LwQgI18uyqXbwLMmabs49bWggCo mmHUNQkcehNJ06s/nWYxsOMe5jBSgmssUEHzOOZeEokuOmpVjiFlVMU0wmr6WQ07bDMw VKS4+esJUpoGTCn9OIDwh6DTgwhsHNPVJgfhegayT3VJInN3al8VYreZjccWJoF7s+oW Nlo+kK+Cx6y1NBF+gODM31ghRM9qwAD0rbJt0pC0cAdudv0u57ymzrk/nTe347iV5OZo 6I2Q== X-Received: by 10.98.7.91 with SMTP id b88mr34799291pfd.48.1448485934804; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 13:12:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e007:639f:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781? ([2406:e007:639f:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q23sm22716133pfi.34.2015.11.25.13.12.09 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 25 Nov 2015 13:12:13 -0800 (PST) To: "Joel M. Halpern" , Toerless Eckert References: <565603B6.3030508@gmail.com> <20151125191407.GP29056@cisco.com> <56560C3F.9030304@gmail.com> <565613CC.1040903@joelhalpern.com> <20151125201711.GR29056@cisco.com> <5656181E.4000908@joelhalpern.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: <5656242F.7080703@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 10:12:15 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5656181E.4000908@joelhalpern.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: anima-bootstrap , anima-signaling@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Anima-bootstrap] Bootstrap discovery question X-BeenThere: anima-bootstrap@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for the bootstrap design team of the ANIMA WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 21:12:17 -0000 On 26/11/2015 09:20, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > There are two issues for me. > > First, as far as I can tell, 7030 actually runs over HTTP. As such, it makes good sense to use URLs. ACP and GRASP do not run > over HTTP. > > Second, the document does not say that we use 7030 well known URLs. It says that you can use any old URL. I can believe that > with suitable restrictions, there are URLs that can be used. But the document does not place any such restrictions. I think that's reasonable, because GRASP (discovery) is just a carrier for this information. But I definitely disagree with Toerless that it would be reasonable to use a URI format for the purpose of carrying an (ACP) IP address. It's a very inefficient way to carry a 128 bit quantity that in the GRASP context is only needed for socket calls, so it never needs to be parsed or presented to a human. Brian > > yours, > Joel > > On 11/25/15 3:17 PM, Toerless Eckert wrote: >> On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 03:02:20PM -0500, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >>> Yes, the key for me is what these "locators" are for. If they are for >>> Anima Applications, that makes sense. I can believe that there >>> applications for which a URL is a good location. If they are for the >>> bootstrap process itself, that seems problematic. >> >> What is bad about rfc7030 ? https:////.wellknown/est >> >> How else would you want to indicate that you can support bootstrap via RFC7030 ? >> Thats how it's defined. Only important details is not to use an FQDN for the >> IP address of the URL. >> >>> I will also note in passing that trying to use a URL as a way of >>> bundling several related but separate pieces of information seems >>> problematic. >> >> Whot ??? Why the heck do we have URLs ? The pieces in a URL are not several, >> unrelated pieces of information. The idea is to have URLs describing the minimum >> necessary pieces of information to actually locate a service. >> >>> Even burying the IP address and port number in the URL >>> domain portion does not seem to be a good idea unless that same URL is >>> what is to be used to send the resulting messages (for example if the >>> service were on top of SOAP). >> >> The EST connection would be established to the IPv6 address in the URL, right. >> >> There is no need for hostname DNS in ACP. Hostnames are just an optimization >> for services provided by only one host. I haven't seen a requirement to make >> ACP ervice discovery depend on having this redundant layer. >> >> Btw: The rfc7030 trust model for https:// between client and registrar in the ACP is >> NOT based on the client believing registrar.domain is valid because of some bogus >> CA signed cert for "registrar.domain", but because of >> >> a) The connection runs across an end-to-end trusted/encrypted transport (ACP). >> b) The IPv6 address of the registrar and the client are derived from their certificates. >> Aka: This is similar to the "registrar.domain" trust, only that its mutual >> and not dependent on random CAs, but both registrar and client cert are from the >> same CA. >> >> Cheers >> Toerless >> >>> >>> Yours, >>> Joel >>> >>> On 11/25/15 2:30 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>>> OK, I've cc'ed Joel as well since it was his review that triggered my >>>> question. >>>> >>>> Agreed, if we want GRASP discovery to be capable of serving as a >>>> general-purpose >>>> discovery tool, we don't really need to justify the FQDN or URI/URL >>>> options. >>>> Joel's point was essentially the same as what you say below ("where the >>>> locator >>>> is in the ACP, we would require IPv6 address so that we do not introduce >>>> the need >>>> for ACP-wide DNS host-name lookup and registration"). So the FQDN and >>>> URI/URL >>>> options are not for "normal" GRASP operation. >>>> >>>> Brian >>>> >>>> On 26/11/2015 08:14, Toerless Eckert wrote: >>>>> [cc'ing signaling team ? (hopefully this is ok. to keep everybody in sync] >>>>> >>>>> Forget about bootstrap, but in general: >>>>> >>>>> IMHO, URL/URI is the most important locator. When someone looks for a >>>>> service/objective, >>>>> it ultimately needs to get everything to build a protocol connection to >>>>> achieve this >>>>> objective/connect-to-this-service. Which means so much more than just IP* >>>>> adress, but also >>>>> transport protocol, port, higher layer protocols, etc. pp. >>>>> >>>>> Why the heck would we want to have to reinvent messaging elements to >>>>> reinvent >>>>> signaling all those connection attributes if there is already one >>>>> solution for this: >>>>> URI. >>>>> >>>>> Example, bootstrap: The bootstrap proxy agent needs to discover the >>>>> "an-registrar-enrollment" >>>>> service (i just made up that name, somebody had to do it ;-). In return i >>>>> think you >>>>> would get back (according to RFC7030, 3.2.2): >>>>> >>>>> https://{:}/.well-known/est >>>>> >>>>> Of course we could support multiple enrollment protocols, but every proxy >>>>> that does >>>>> support rfc7030 would recognize this as a URI indicating RFC7030. This is >>>>> because of >>>>> /.well-known/est. And it then knows the necessary transport protocol >>>>> pieces: IPv6 >>>>> addr and port and use of HTTPS. As a rule of thumb for services where the >>>>> locator is >>>>> in the ACP, we would require IPv6 address so that we do not introduce the >>>>> need for >>>>> ACP-wide DNS host-name lookup and registration. >>>>> >>>>> If there is a way to reuse more/better our existing IETF toolset, please >>>>> chime in. >>>>> >>>>> Cheers >>>>> Toerless >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Nov 26, 2015 at 07:53:42AM +1300, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>>>>> Here's a hopefully simple question from the GRASP side of the house. >>>>>> >>>>>> If the bootstrap uses GRASP discovery, what sort of locator will >>>>>> it be trying to discover? >>>>>> >>>>>> At the moment GRASP has four locator types in the design: >>>>>> >>>>>> - IPv6 address >>>>>> - IPv4 address >>>>>> - FQDN >>>>>> - URL >>>>>> >>>>>> It's been suggested by a reviewer that the URL option is unnecessary. >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards >>>>>> Brian >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Anima-bootstrap mailing list >>>>>> Anima-bootstrap@ietf.org >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima-bootstrap >>>>> >>>> >> > From nobody Wed Nov 25 13:19:10 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE7321B3069; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 13:19:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.086 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.086 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Iip-wt5n7gMN; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 13:19:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from alln-iport-1.cisco.com (alln-iport-1.cisco.com [173.37.142.88]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 59DB41B306F; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 13:19:01 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=7642; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1448486341; x=1449695941; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references: mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=hV3xr/QzO5AAQE47RMNiNAV1kJvAX+wNFK2/F23WgL4=; b=Z2hrE8IVjNKL1vhum6u5AdbT2X5xACLyCO4rnFvxx2HlOwIt3XFLpIzz KgHslMfmA2pPU+mO6q11Tyo+UWRJ8cA0UU24AXN9rcqMzmywazQ5HQt2X rQQxq3sYbckCsEmllDPXM73jTNlwu2eJZ5Hiq3zmJWP+8tfvrq15S5cYR U=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0D5AQC3JFZW/4oNJK1egztTb75CAQ2BZ?= =?us-ascii?q?hcKhW4CgUY4FAEBAQEBAQGBCoQ0AQEBAwEBAQE3NAsFCwsYCSUPBRM2ExuICwg?= =?us-ascii?q?Nvk8BAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEUBIpMgQaENIUFBY0idoRXg2iNLAmBX?= =?us-ascii?q?IRBlkEfAQFChCUdNINigUoBAQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,344,1444694400"; d="scan'208";a="212342515" Received: from alln-core-5.cisco.com ([173.36.13.138]) by alln-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 25 Nov 2015 21:19:00 +0000 Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (mcast-linux1.cisco.com [172.27.244.121]) by alln-core-5.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tAPLIxcE026600 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 25 Nov 2015 21:19:00 GMT Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (localhost.cisco.com [127.0.0.1]) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id tAPLIx5b007948; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 13:18:59 -0800 Received: (from eckert@localhost) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id tAPLIxlk007947; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 13:18:59 -0800 Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 13:18:59 -0800 From: Toerless Eckert To: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: <20151125211859.GS29056@cisco.com> References: <565603B6.3030508@gmail.com> <20151125191407.GP29056@cisco.com> <56560C3F.9030304@gmail.com> <565613CC.1040903@joelhalpern.com> <20151125201711.GR29056@cisco.com> <5656181E.4000908@joelhalpern.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <5656181E.4000908@joelhalpern.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i Archived-At: Cc: anima-bootstrap , anima-signaling@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Anima-bootstrap] Bootstrap discovery question X-BeenThere: anima-bootstrap@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for the bootstrap design team of the ANIMA WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 21:19:07 -0000 On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 03:20:46PM -0500, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > There are two issues for me. > > First, as far as I can tell, 7030 actually runs over HTTP. As such, it > makes good sense to use URLs. https actually. > ACP and GRASP do not run over HTTP. Right. But my argument for URLs was not meant to be limited to services on top of http(s), but generic. URLs are the IETFs way to locate resources. IMHO an objective/service is well characterised as being a subset of resources. > Second, the document does not say that we use 7030 well known URLs. It > says that you can use any old URL. I can believe that with suitable > restrictions, there are URLs that can be used. But the document does > not place any such restrictions. Sure, we can look into refining the wording. Also, my answer wasn't meant to be conclusive, just to say that URL is better/more important than IP* address or FQDN. My open AI is this: Whenever GRASP tries to find a service for which parameters are needed, we should tr try to avoid reinventing the wheel how to define / register those attributes. FOr some services/parameters, URLs do a great job for this, eg: port-number for many TCP/UDP services with URLs defined. For other services, DNS-SD does a pretty good job via the parameteres of the SRV and TXT records. So i would like to see how much of this we could reuse in GRASP. For example, DNS-SD permits to encode a lot of parameters as = concatenated via ";" into TXT record. Lets assume some GRASP objective/service needs to indicate such parameters. How should we encode them when using GRASP ? Have in GRASP also such a "parameter" element ? Break up the TXT into individual JSON/CBOR string/value attributes ? Append them to the URL... Cheers toerless > yours, > Joel > > On 11/25/15 3:17 PM, Toerless Eckert wrote: > >On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 03:02:20PM -0500, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > >>Yes, the key for me is what these "locators" are for. If they are for > >>Anima Applications, that makes sense. I can believe that there > >>applications for which a URL is a good location. If they are for the > >>bootstrap process itself, that seems problematic. > > > >What is bad about rfc7030 ? https:////.wellknown/est > > > >How else would you want to indicate that you can support bootstrap via > >RFC7030 ? > >Thats how it's defined. Only important details is not to use an FQDN for > >the > >IP address of the URL. > > > >>I will also note in passing that trying to use a URL as a way of > >>bundling several related but separate pieces of information seems > >>problematic. > > > >Whot ??? Why the heck do we have URLs ? The pieces in a URL are not > >several, > >unrelated pieces of information. The idea is to have URLs describing the > >minimum > >necessary pieces of information to actually locate a service. > > > >>Even burying the IP address and port number in the URL > >>domain portion does not seem to be a good idea unless that same URL is > >>what is to be used to send the resulting messages (for example if the > >>service were on top of SOAP). > > > >The EST connection would be established to the IPv6 address in the URL, > >right. > > > >There is no need for hostname DNS in ACP. Hostnames are just an > >optimization > >for services provided by only one host. I haven't seen a requirement to > >make > >ACP ervice discovery depend on having this redundant layer. > > > >Btw: The rfc7030 trust model for https:// between client and registrar in > >the ACP is > >NOT based on the client believing registrar.domain is valid because of > >some bogus > >CA signed cert for "registrar.domain", but because of > > > >a) The connection runs across an end-to-end trusted/encrypted transport > >(ACP). > >b) The IPv6 address of the registrar and the client are derived from their > >certificates. > > Aka: This is similar to the "registrar.domain" trust, only that its > > mutual > > and not dependent on random CAs, but both registrar and client cert > > are from the > > same CA. > > > >Cheers > > Toerless > > > >> > >>Yours, > >>Joel > >> > >>On 11/25/15 2:30 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > >>>OK, I've cc'ed Joel as well since it was his review that triggered my > >>>question. > >>> > >>>Agreed, if we want GRASP discovery to be capable of serving as a > >>>general-purpose > >>>discovery tool, we don't really need to justify the FQDN or URI/URL > >>>options. > >>>Joel's point was essentially the same as what you say below ("where the > >>>locator > >>>is in the ACP, we would require IPv6 address so that we do not introduce > >>>the need > >>>for ACP-wide DNS host-name lookup and registration"). So the FQDN and > >>>URI/URL > >>>options are not for "normal" GRASP operation. > >>> > >>> Brian > >>> > >>>On 26/11/2015 08:14, Toerless Eckert wrote: > >>>>[cc'ing signaling team ? (hopefully this is ok. to keep everybody in > >>>>sync] > >>>> > >>>>Forget about bootstrap, but in general: > >>>> > >>>>IMHO, URL/URI is the most important locator. When someone looks for a > >>>>service/objective, > >>>>it ultimately needs to get everything to build a protocol connection to > >>>>achieve this > >>>>objective/connect-to-this-service. Which means so much more than just > >>>>IP* > >>>>adress, but also > >>>>transport protocol, port, higher layer protocols, etc. pp. > >>>> > >>>>Why the heck would we want to have to reinvent messaging elements to > >>>>reinvent > >>>>signaling all those connection attributes if there is already one > >>>>solution for this: > >>>>URI. > >>>> > >>>>Example, bootstrap: The bootstrap proxy agent needs to discover the > >>>>"an-registrar-enrollment" > >>>>service (i just made up that name, somebody had to do it ;-). In return > >>>>i > >>>>think you > >>>>would get back (according to RFC7030, 3.2.2): > >>>> > >>>>https://{:}/.well-known/est > >>>> > >>>>Of course we could support multiple enrollment protocols, but every > >>>>proxy > >>>>that does > >>>>support rfc7030 would recognize this as a URI indicating RFC7030. This > >>>>is > >>>>because of > >>>>/.well-known/est. And it then knows the necessary transport protocol > >>>>pieces: IPv6 > >>>>addr and port and use of HTTPS. As a rule of thumb for services where > >>>>the > >>>>locator is > >>>>in the ACP, we would require IPv6 address so that we do not introduce > >>>>the > >>>>need for > >>>>ACP-wide DNS host-name lookup and registration. > >>>> > >>>>If there is a way to reuse more/better our existing IETF toolset, please > >>>>chime in. > >>>> > >>>>Cheers > >>>> Toerless > >>>> > >>>>On Thu, Nov 26, 2015 at 07:53:42AM +1300, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > >>>>>Here's a hopefully simple question from the GRASP side of the house. > >>>>> > >>>>>If the bootstrap uses GRASP discovery, what sort of locator will > >>>>>it be trying to discover? > >>>>> > >>>>>At the moment GRASP has four locator types in the design: > >>>>> > >>>>>- IPv6 address > >>>>>- IPv4 address > >>>>>- FQDN > >>>>>- URL > >>>>> > >>>>>It's been suggested by a reviewer that the URL option is unnecessary. > >>>>> > >>>>>Regards > >>>>> Brian > >>>>> > >>>>>_______________________________________________ > >>>>>Anima-bootstrap mailing list > >>>>>Anima-bootstrap@ietf.org > >>>>>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima-bootstrap > >>>> > >>> > > -- --- Toerless Eckert, eckert@cisco.com From nobody Wed Nov 25 13:53:03 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B08461B30E8; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 13:53:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.086 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.086 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vTczrjGLnkHZ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 13:52:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com [173.37.86.73]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8B1291B30DF; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 13:52:59 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=7331; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1448488379; x=1449697979; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references: mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=B3/DhuaVf3kVNCFRbehnRJRffnOWBANK2QmRnW/g8eg=; b=iIcXn7H/LG/WZe5rvAbGGeWyvqyEZPPcK7UjVLbUSAcV7Lh+TT/KLGPc FunthGZb81qwPFKXs/KjecLrRC+IQn0WLiEvwK1+dtDrmSVp0jXrV1kki tw6PQZnM5tKJbBDbvtHbdXxgp7keif71jVQUPwbmZSJEoc7mzUXvkjUY4 w=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0BRAwCiLFZW/5pdJa1egztTLUK+QgENg?= =?us-ascii?q?WYXCoVuAoFGOBQBAQEBAQEBgQqENAEBAQMBAQEBJBMtBwsQCxgJJQ8FEzYTG4g?= =?us-ascii?q?LCA2+TAEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBARQEi1KJOQWNInaIP40sCYFchEGWQ?= =?us-ascii?q?R8BAUKEJR00hSwBAQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,344,1444694400"; d="scan'208";a="53054389" Received: from rcdn-core-3.cisco.com ([173.37.93.154]) by rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 25 Nov 2015 21:52:58 +0000 Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (mcast-linux1.cisco.com [172.27.244.121]) by rcdn-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tAPLqwbb007875 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 25 Nov 2015 21:52:58 GMT Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (localhost.cisco.com [127.0.0.1]) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id tAPLqvj9009802; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 13:52:57 -0800 Received: (from eckert@localhost) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id tAPLqv1a009799; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 13:52:57 -0800 Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 13:52:57 -0800 From: Toerless Eckert To: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <20151125215257.GT29056@cisco.com> References: <565603B6.3030508@gmail.com> <20151125191407.GP29056@cisco.com> <56560C3F.9030304@gmail.com> <565613CC.1040903@joelhalpern.com> <20151125201711.GR29056@cisco.com> <5656181E.4000908@joelhalpern.com> <5656242F.7080703@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <5656242F.7080703@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i Archived-At: Cc: anima-bootstrap , "Joel M. Halpern" , anima-signaling@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Anima-bootstrap] Bootstrap discovery question X-BeenThere: anima-bootstrap@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for the bootstrap design team of the ANIMA WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 21:53:01 -0000 On Thu, Nov 26, 2015 at 10:12:15AM +1300, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > But I definitely disagree with Toerless that it would be reasonable to > use a URI format for the purpose of carrying an (ACP) IP address. It's > a very inefficient way to carry a 128 bit quantity that in the GRASP > context is only needed for socket calls, so it never needs to be parsed > or presented to a human. DNS-SD has string based = attributes. These are carried together in a single mDNS packet if mDNS is used. AFAIK, nobody ever argued that those have to generically be encoded more compact, but of course everybody is aware of the UDP/mDNS packet size limitation and makes ssure the total information does not exceed eg: 1280. Aka: My rule of thumb would be to always have a tight eye on fitting GRASP service announcements within 1280 everything included. As long as we feel safe on that, do as little additional optimization of pre-defined data as necessary. If necessary, just have a CBOR binary ddress attribute and then define a URL template to use in GRASP: scheme://%A/.... -> %A : Name resolves to address in element Btw: I think we do need to have the DNS-SD parameters as well so that we wouldn't have to reinvent the wheel for services that are well defined via DNS-SD definitions ;-)) Cheers Toerless > > Brian > > > > > yours, > > Joel > > > > On 11/25/15 3:17 PM, Toerless Eckert wrote: > >> On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 03:02:20PM -0500, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > >>> Yes, the key for me is what these "locators" are for. If they are for > >>> Anima Applications, that makes sense. I can believe that there > >>> applications for which a URL is a good location. If they are for the > >>> bootstrap process itself, that seems problematic. > >> > >> What is bad about rfc7030 ? https:////.wellknown/est > >> > >> How else would you want to indicate that you can support bootstrap via RFC7030 ? > >> Thats how it's defined. Only important details is not to use an FQDN for the > >> IP address of the URL. > >> > >>> I will also note in passing that trying to use a URL as a way of > >>> bundling several related but separate pieces of information seems > >>> problematic. > >> > >> Whot ??? Why the heck do we have URLs ? The pieces in a URL are not several, > >> unrelated pieces of information. The idea is to have URLs describing the minimum > >> necessary pieces of information to actually locate a service. > >> > >>> Even burying the IP address and port number in the URL > >>> domain portion does not seem to be a good idea unless that same URL is > >>> what is to be used to send the resulting messages (for example if the > >>> service were on top of SOAP). > >> > >> The EST connection would be established to the IPv6 address in the URL, right. > >> > >> There is no need for hostname DNS in ACP. Hostnames are just an optimization > >> for services provided by only one host. I haven't seen a requirement to make > >> ACP ervice discovery depend on having this redundant layer. > >> > >> Btw: The rfc7030 trust model for https:// between client and registrar in the ACP is > >> NOT based on the client believing registrar.domain is valid because of some bogus > >> CA signed cert for "registrar.domain", but because of > >> > >> a) The connection runs across an end-to-end trusted/encrypted transport (ACP). > >> b) The IPv6 address of the registrar and the client are derived from their certificates. > >> Aka: This is similar to the "registrar.domain" trust, only that its mutual > >> and not dependent on random CAs, but both registrar and client cert are from the > >> same CA. > >> > >> Cheers > >> Toerless > >> > >>> > >>> Yours, > >>> Joel > >>> > >>> On 11/25/15 2:30 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > >>>> OK, I've cc'ed Joel as well since it was his review that triggered my > >>>> question. > >>>> > >>>> Agreed, if we want GRASP discovery to be capable of serving as a > >>>> general-purpose > >>>> discovery tool, we don't really need to justify the FQDN or URI/URL > >>>> options. > >>>> Joel's point was essentially the same as what you say below ("where the > >>>> locator > >>>> is in the ACP, we would require IPv6 address so that we do not introduce > >>>> the need > >>>> for ACP-wide DNS host-name lookup and registration"). So the FQDN and > >>>> URI/URL > >>>> options are not for "normal" GRASP operation. > >>>> > >>>> Brian > >>>> > >>>> On 26/11/2015 08:14, Toerless Eckert wrote: > >>>>> [cc'ing signaling team ? (hopefully this is ok. to keep everybody in sync] > >>>>> > >>>>> Forget about bootstrap, but in general: > >>>>> > >>>>> IMHO, URL/URI is the most important locator. When someone looks for a > >>>>> service/objective, > >>>>> it ultimately needs to get everything to build a protocol connection to > >>>>> achieve this > >>>>> objective/connect-to-this-service. Which means so much more than just IP* > >>>>> adress, but also > >>>>> transport protocol, port, higher layer protocols, etc. pp. > >>>>> > >>>>> Why the heck would we want to have to reinvent messaging elements to > >>>>> reinvent > >>>>> signaling all those connection attributes if there is already one > >>>>> solution for this: > >>>>> URI. > >>>>> > >>>>> Example, bootstrap: The bootstrap proxy agent needs to discover the > >>>>> "an-registrar-enrollment" > >>>>> service (i just made up that name, somebody had to do it ;-). In return i > >>>>> think you > >>>>> would get back (according to RFC7030, 3.2.2): > >>>>> > >>>>> https://{:}/.well-known/est > >>>>> > >>>>> Of course we could support multiple enrollment protocols, but every proxy > >>>>> that does > >>>>> support rfc7030 would recognize this as a URI indicating RFC7030. This is > >>>>> because of > >>>>> /.well-known/est. And it then knows the necessary transport protocol > >>>>> pieces: IPv6 > >>>>> addr and port and use of HTTPS. As a rule of thumb for services where the > >>>>> locator is > >>>>> in the ACP, we would require IPv6 address so that we do not introduce the > >>>>> need for > >>>>> ACP-wide DNS host-name lookup and registration. > >>>>> > >>>>> If there is a way to reuse more/better our existing IETF toolset, please > >>>>> chime in. > >>>>> > >>>>> Cheers > >>>>> Toerless > >>>>> > >>>>> On Thu, Nov 26, 2015 at 07:53:42AM +1300, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > >>>>>> Here's a hopefully simple question from the GRASP side of the house. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> If the bootstrap uses GRASP discovery, what sort of locator will > >>>>>> it be trying to discover? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> At the moment GRASP has four locator types in the design: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> - IPv6 address > >>>>>> - IPv4 address > >>>>>> - FQDN > >>>>>> - URL > >>>>>> > >>>>>> It's been suggested by a reviewer that the URL option is unnecessary. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Regards > >>>>>> Brian > >>>>>> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> Anima-bootstrap mailing list > >>>>>> Anima-bootstrap@ietf.org > >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima-bootstrap > >>>>> > >>>> > >> > > -- --- Toerless Eckert, eckert@cisco.com From nobody Wed Nov 25 15:00:51 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBFFD1B3248; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 15:00:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.602 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.602 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qzpKCKqDuEXC; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 15:00:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from maila2.tigertech.net (maila2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.152]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BC4571B3249; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 15:00:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA743250CB5; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 15:00:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at maila2.tigertech.net Received: from Joels-MacBook-Pro.local (209-255-163-147.ip.mcleodusa.net [209.255.163.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by maila2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0934824099F; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 15:00:44 -0800 (PST) To: Toerless Eckert , Brian E Carpenter References: <565603B6.3030508@gmail.com> <20151125191407.GP29056@cisco.com> <56560C3F.9030304@gmail.com> <565613CC.1040903@joelhalpern.com> <20151125201711.GR29056@cisco.com> <5656181E.4000908@joelhalpern.com> <5656242F.7080703@gmail.com> <20151125215257.GT29056@cisco.com> From: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: <56563D92.6000109@joelhalpern.com> Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 18:00:34 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20151125215257.GT29056@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: anima-bootstrap , anima-signaling@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Anima-bootstrap] Bootstrap discovery question X-BeenThere: anima-bootstrap@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for the bootstrap design team of the ANIMA WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 23:00:47 -0000 I think the problem is much simpler Toerless. You want to be able to use a specific format of URL in certain circumstances. That particular usage seems defensible. But if we want to do that, we need to make very clear that only that usage is allowed. Shipping arbitrary URLs around and expecting them to do the right thing seems at best over-optimistic. I agree that we should not invent new ways of packaging information. I am not at all sure I agree that a URL is the IETF agreed way for packaging information at any layer other than the application layer. Yours, Joel On 11/25/15 4:52 PM, Toerless Eckert wrote: > On Thu, Nov 26, 2015 at 10:12:15AM +1300, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> But I definitely disagree with Toerless that it would be reasonable to >> use a URI format for the purpose of carrying an (ACP) IP address. It's >> a very inefficient way to carry a 128 bit quantity that in the GRASP >> context is only needed for socket calls, so it never needs to be parsed >> or presented to a human. > > DNS-SD has string based = attributes. These > are carried together in a single mDNS packet if mDNS is used. AFAIK, > nobody ever argued that those have to generically be encoded more compact, > but of course everybody is aware of the UDP/mDNS packet size limitation > and makes ssure the total information does not exceed eg: 1280. > > Aka: My rule of thumb would be to always have a tight eye on fitting > GRASP service announcements within 1280 everything included. As long as > we feel safe on that, do as little additional optimization of pre-defined > data as necessary. > > If necessary, just have a CBOR binary ddress attribute and then define > a URL template to use in GRASP: > > scheme://%A/.... -> %A : Name resolves to address in element > > Btw: I think we do need to have the DNS-SD parameters as well so that > we wouldn't have to reinvent the wheel for services that are well defined > via DNS-SD definitions ;-)) > > Cheers > Toerless > >> >> Brian >> >>> >>> yours, >>> Joel >>> >>> On 11/25/15 3:17 PM, Toerless Eckert wrote: >>>> On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 03:02:20PM -0500, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >>>>> Yes, the key for me is what these "locators" are for. If they are for >>>>> Anima Applications, that makes sense. I can believe that there >>>>> applications for which a URL is a good location. If they are for the >>>>> bootstrap process itself, that seems problematic. >>>> >>>> What is bad about rfc7030 ? https:////.wellknown/est >>>> >>>> How else would you want to indicate that you can support bootstrap via RFC7030 ? >>>> Thats how it's defined. Only important details is not to use an FQDN for the >>>> IP address of the URL. >>>> >>>>> I will also note in passing that trying to use a URL as a way of >>>>> bundling several related but separate pieces of information seems >>>>> problematic. >>>> >>>> Whot ??? Why the heck do we have URLs ? The pieces in a URL are not several, >>>> unrelated pieces of information. The idea is to have URLs describing the minimum >>>> necessary pieces of information to actually locate a service. >>>> >>>>> Even burying the IP address and port number in the URL >>>>> domain portion does not seem to be a good idea unless that same URL is >>>>> what is to be used to send the resulting messages (for example if the >>>>> service were on top of SOAP). >>>> >>>> The EST connection would be established to the IPv6 address in the URL, right. >>>> >>>> There is no need for hostname DNS in ACP. Hostnames are just an optimization >>>> for services provided by only one host. I haven't seen a requirement to make >>>> ACP ervice discovery depend on having this redundant layer. >>>> >>>> Btw: The rfc7030 trust model for https:// between client and registrar in the ACP is >>>> NOT based on the client believing registrar.domain is valid because of some bogus >>>> CA signed cert for "registrar.domain", but because of >>>> >>>> a) The connection runs across an end-to-end trusted/encrypted transport (ACP). >>>> b) The IPv6 address of the registrar and the client are derived from their certificates. >>>> Aka: This is similar to the "registrar.domain" trust, only that its mutual >>>> and not dependent on random CAs, but both registrar and client cert are from the >>>> same CA. >>>> >>>> Cheers >>>> Toerless >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Yours, >>>>> Joel >>>>> >>>>> On 11/25/15 2:30 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>>>>> OK, I've cc'ed Joel as well since it was his review that triggered my >>>>>> question. >>>>>> >>>>>> Agreed, if we want GRASP discovery to be capable of serving as a >>>>>> general-purpose >>>>>> discovery tool, we don't really need to justify the FQDN or URI/URL >>>>>> options. >>>>>> Joel's point was essentially the same as what you say below ("where the >>>>>> locator >>>>>> is in the ACP, we would require IPv6 address so that we do not introduce >>>>>> the need >>>>>> for ACP-wide DNS host-name lookup and registration"). So the FQDN and >>>>>> URI/URL >>>>>> options are not for "normal" GRASP operation. >>>>>> >>>>>> Brian >>>>>> >>>>>> On 26/11/2015 08:14, Toerless Eckert wrote: >>>>>>> [cc'ing signaling team ? (hopefully this is ok. to keep everybody in sync] >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Forget about bootstrap, but in general: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> IMHO, URL/URI is the most important locator. When someone looks for a >>>>>>> service/objective, >>>>>>> it ultimately needs to get everything to build a protocol connection to >>>>>>> achieve this >>>>>>> objective/connect-to-this-service. Which means so much more than just IP* >>>>>>> adress, but also >>>>>>> transport protocol, port, higher layer protocols, etc. pp. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Why the heck would we want to have to reinvent messaging elements to >>>>>>> reinvent >>>>>>> signaling all those connection attributes if there is already one >>>>>>> solution for this: >>>>>>> URI. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Example, bootstrap: The bootstrap proxy agent needs to discover the >>>>>>> "an-registrar-enrollment" >>>>>>> service (i just made up that name, somebody had to do it ;-). In return i >>>>>>> think you >>>>>>> would get back (according to RFC7030, 3.2.2): >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://{:}/.well-known/est >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Of course we could support multiple enrollment protocols, but every proxy >>>>>>> that does >>>>>>> support rfc7030 would recognize this as a URI indicating RFC7030. This is >>>>>>> because of >>>>>>> /.well-known/est. And it then knows the necessary transport protocol >>>>>>> pieces: IPv6 >>>>>>> addr and port and use of HTTPS. As a rule of thumb for services where the >>>>>>> locator is >>>>>>> in the ACP, we would require IPv6 address so that we do not introduce the >>>>>>> need for >>>>>>> ACP-wide DNS host-name lookup and registration. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If there is a way to reuse more/better our existing IETF toolset, please >>>>>>> chime in. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Cheers >>>>>>> Toerless >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Thu, Nov 26, 2015 at 07:53:42AM +1300, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>>>>>>> Here's a hopefully simple question from the GRASP side of the house. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If the bootstrap uses GRASP discovery, what sort of locator will >>>>>>>> it be trying to discover? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> At the moment GRASP has four locator types in the design: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> - IPv6 address >>>>>>>> - IPv4 address >>>>>>>> - FQDN >>>>>>>> - URL >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It's been suggested by a reviewer that the URL option is unnecessary. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Regards >>>>>>>> Brian >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Anima-bootstrap mailing list >>>>>>>> Anima-bootstrap@ietf.org >>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima-bootstrap >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>> > From nobody Wed Nov 25 15:40:40 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B14371B329A; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 15:40:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.086 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.086 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DOCGsNP4CSEQ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 15:40:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from alln-iport-2.cisco.com (alln-iport-2.cisco.com [173.37.142.89]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4B0ED1B3299; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 15:40:37 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=9208; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1448494837; x=1449704437; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references: mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=1+zPJ/HQSH/oga6SRWmEFpp249HmtygYlWw4qJs3cxU=; b=Y6MVbWuLZcOLiXtt1BQw4aold8Ys7DVU9uJjhWsr5nhNbuadodai4B1s 4sylhBmTRqqKLb3lVYAmkZsd8MJaKuXxTQeds3TBMyIOJ2qARUlkE0XNd jLKs6EZkyDuvzMO5zDW8206ZLLKTltgms0N1TozGC1HGaE6BB0knzw+kZ 8=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0DIAgB6RVZW/5xdJa1egztTLUK+QgENg?= =?us-ascii?q?WQXCoVuAoFEOBQBAQEBAQEBgQqENQEBBAEBASQTLQcLEAsYCSUPBRM2ExuIEw2?= =?us-ascii?q?+ZAEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBARQEikyBBok5BY0idog/jSwJgVyEQZJPg?= =?us-ascii?q?3IfAQFCghEdgXcdNIVgAQEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,344,1444694400"; d="scan'208";a="210800357" Received: from rcdn-core-5.cisco.com ([173.37.93.156]) by alln-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 25 Nov 2015 23:40:36 +0000 Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (mcast-linux1.cisco.com [172.27.244.121]) by rcdn-core-5.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tAPNeZU6003714 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 25 Nov 2015 23:40:36 GMT Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (localhost.cisco.com [127.0.0.1]) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id tAPNeZPt015225; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 15:40:35 -0800 Received: (from eckert@localhost) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id tAPNeZw4015224; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 15:40:35 -0800 Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 15:40:35 -0800 From: Toerless Eckert To: "Joel M. Halpern" Message-ID: <20151125234035.GU29056@cisco.com> References: <565603B6.3030508@gmail.com> <20151125191407.GP29056@cisco.com> <56560C3F.9030304@gmail.com> <565613CC.1040903@joelhalpern.com> <20151125201711.GR29056@cisco.com> <5656181E.4000908@joelhalpern.com> <5656242F.7080703@gmail.com> <20151125215257.GT29056@cisco.com> <56563D92.6000109@joelhalpern.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <56563D92.6000109@joelhalpern.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i Archived-At: Cc: anima-bootstrap , anima-signaling@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Anima-bootstrap] Bootstrap discovery question X-BeenThere: anima-bootstrap@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for the bootstrap design team of the ANIMA WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 23:40:39 -0000 So, with that said: What's your suggestion to best define in an extensible fashion the locators for services/objectives with minimum new definitions and maximum reuse of known/working IETF solutions. To me the known/working IETF solutions are URLs and DNS-SD. I do agree that so far a lot of stuff below the app-layer in the IETF has created as many new registries for assigned name & numbers as threy could (ok, maybe a bit cynical). I really wish we could come up with a framework for anima that doesn't require contiguously new registries when new agents are written. Cheers Toerless On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 06:00:34PM -0500, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > I think the problem is much simpler Toerless. > You want to be able to use a specific format of URL in certain > circumstances. That particular usage seems defensible. > > But if we want to do that, we need to make very clear that only that > usage is allowed. Shipping arbitrary URLs around and expecting them to > do the right thing seems at best over-optimistic. > > I agree that we should not invent new ways of packaging information. > I am not at all sure I agree that a URL is the IETF agreed way for > packaging information at any layer other than the application layer. > > Yours, > Joel > > On 11/25/15 4:52 PM, Toerless Eckert wrote: > >On Thu, Nov 26, 2015 at 10:12:15AM +1300, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > >>But I definitely disagree with Toerless that it would be reasonable to > >>use a URI format for the purpose of carrying an (ACP) IP address. It's > >>a very inefficient way to carry a 128 bit quantity that in the GRASP > >>context is only needed for socket calls, so it never needs to be parsed > >>or presented to a human. > > > >DNS-SD has string based = attributes. These > >are carried together in a single mDNS packet if mDNS is used. AFAIK, > >nobody ever argued that those have to generically be encoded more compact, > >but of course everybody is aware of the UDP/mDNS packet size limitation > >and makes ssure the total information does not exceed eg: 1280. > > > >Aka: My rule of thumb would be to always have a tight eye on fitting > >GRASP service announcements within 1280 everything included. As long as > >we feel safe on that, do as little additional optimization of pre-defined > >data as necessary. > > > >If necessary, just have a CBOR binary ddress attribute and then define > >a URL template to use in GRASP: > > > > scheme://%A/.... -> %A : Name resolves to address in element > > > >Btw: I think we do need to have the DNS-SD parameters as well so that > >we wouldn't have to reinvent the wheel for services that are well defined > >via DNS-SD definitions ;-)) > > > >Cheers > > Toerless > > > >> > >> Brian > >> > >>> > >>>yours, > >>>Joel > >>> > >>>On 11/25/15 3:17 PM, Toerless Eckert wrote: > >>>>On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 03:02:20PM -0500, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > >>>>>Yes, the key for me is what these "locators" are for. If they are for > >>>>>Anima Applications, that makes sense. I can believe that there > >>>>>applications for which a URL is a good location. If they are for the > >>>>>bootstrap process itself, that seems problematic. > >>>> > >>>>What is bad about rfc7030 ? https:////.wellknown/est > >>>> > >>>>How else would you want to indicate that you can support bootstrap via > >>>>RFC7030 ? > >>>>Thats how it's defined. Only important details is not to use an FQDN > >>>>for the > >>>>IP address of the URL. > >>>> > >>>>>I will also note in passing that trying to use a URL as a way of > >>>>>bundling several related but separate pieces of information seems > >>>>>problematic. > >>>> > >>>>Whot ??? Why the heck do we have URLs ? The pieces in a URL are not > >>>>several, > >>>>unrelated pieces of information. The idea is to have URLs describing > >>>>the minimum > >>>>necessary pieces of information to actually locate a service. > >>>> > >>>>>Even burying the IP address and port number in the URL > >>>>>domain portion does not seem to be a good idea unless that same URL is > >>>>>what is to be used to send the resulting messages (for example if the > >>>>>service were on top of SOAP). > >>>> > >>>>The EST connection would be established to the IPv6 address in the URL, > >>>>right. > >>>> > >>>>There is no need for hostname DNS in ACP. Hostnames are just an > >>>>optimization > >>>>for services provided by only one host. I haven't seen a requirement to > >>>>make > >>>>ACP ervice discovery depend on having this redundant layer. > >>>> > >>>>Btw: The rfc7030 trust model for https:// between client and registrar > >>>>in the ACP is > >>>>NOT based on the client believing registrar.domain is valid because of > >>>>some bogus > >>>>CA signed cert for "registrar.domain", but because of > >>>> > >>>>a) The connection runs across an end-to-end trusted/encrypted transport > >>>>(ACP). > >>>>b) The IPv6 address of the registrar and the client are derived from > >>>>their certificates. > >>>> Aka: This is similar to the "registrar.domain" trust, only that > >>>> its mutual > >>>> and not dependent on random CAs, but both registrar and client > >>>> cert are from the > >>>> same CA. > >>>> > >>>>Cheers > >>>> Toerless > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>Yours, > >>>>>Joel > >>>>> > >>>>>On 11/25/15 2:30 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > >>>>>>OK, I've cc'ed Joel as well since it was his review that triggered my > >>>>>>question. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>Agreed, if we want GRASP discovery to be capable of serving as a > >>>>>>general-purpose > >>>>>>discovery tool, we don't really need to justify the FQDN or URI/URL > >>>>>>options. > >>>>>>Joel's point was essentially the same as what you say below ("where > >>>>>>the > >>>>>>locator > >>>>>>is in the ACP, we would require IPv6 address so that we do not > >>>>>>introduce > >>>>>>the need > >>>>>>for ACP-wide DNS host-name lookup and registration"). So the FQDN and > >>>>>>URI/URL > >>>>>>options are not for "normal" GRASP operation. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Brian > >>>>>> > >>>>>>On 26/11/2015 08:14, Toerless Eckert wrote: > >>>>>>>[cc'ing signaling team ? (hopefully this is ok. to keep everybody in > >>>>>>>sync] > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>Forget about bootstrap, but in general: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>IMHO, URL/URI is the most important locator. When someone looks for a > >>>>>>>service/objective, > >>>>>>>it ultimately needs to get everything to build a protocol connection > >>>>>>>to > >>>>>>>achieve this > >>>>>>>objective/connect-to-this-service. Which means so much more than > >>>>>>>just IP* > >>>>>>>adress, but also > >>>>>>>transport protocol, port, higher layer protocols, etc. pp. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>Why the heck would we want to have to reinvent messaging elements to > >>>>>>>reinvent > >>>>>>>signaling all those connection attributes if there is already one > >>>>>>>solution for this: > >>>>>>>URI. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>Example, bootstrap: The bootstrap proxy agent needs to discover the > >>>>>>>"an-registrar-enrollment" > >>>>>>>service (i just made up that name, somebody had to do it ;-). In > >>>>>>>return i > >>>>>>>think you > >>>>>>>would get back (according to RFC7030, 3.2.2): > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>https://{:}/.well-known/est > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>Of course we could support multiple enrollment protocols, but every > >>>>>>>proxy > >>>>>>>that does > >>>>>>>support rfc7030 would recognize this as a URI indicating RFC7030. > >>>>>>>This is > >>>>>>>because of > >>>>>>>/.well-known/est. And it then knows the necessary transport protocol > >>>>>>>pieces: IPv6 > >>>>>>>addr and port and use of HTTPS. As a rule of thumb for services > >>>>>>>where the > >>>>>>>locator is > >>>>>>>in the ACP, we would require IPv6 address so that we do not > >>>>>>>introduce the > >>>>>>>need for > >>>>>>>ACP-wide DNS host-name lookup and registration. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>If there is a way to reuse more/better our existing IETF toolset, > >>>>>>>please > >>>>>>>chime in. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>Cheers > >>>>>>> Toerless > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>On Thu, Nov 26, 2015 at 07:53:42AM +1300, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > >>>>>>>>Here's a hopefully simple question from the GRASP side of the house. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>If the bootstrap uses GRASP discovery, what sort of locator will > >>>>>>>>it be trying to discover? > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>At the moment GRASP has four locator types in the design: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>- IPv6 address > >>>>>>>>- IPv4 address > >>>>>>>>- FQDN > >>>>>>>>- URL > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>It's been suggested by a reviewer that the URL option is > >>>>>>>>unnecessary. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>Regards > >>>>>>>> Brian > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>_______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>>Anima-bootstrap mailing list > >>>>>>>>Anima-bootstrap@ietf.org > >>>>>>>>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima-bootstrap > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>> > >>> > > -- --- Toerless Eckert, eckert@cisco.com From nobody Wed Nov 25 16:32:14 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A70B1B3325; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 16:32:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xF6ziBNvrkZj; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 16:32:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-x235.google.com (mail-pa0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 951301B3322; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 16:32:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by pacdm15 with SMTP id dm15so72140379pac.3; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 16:32:08 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:organization:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=91ru83M899ztOjv2ITuVXPX1zD8ucQ5GHuiryvjxfb4=; b=JPtOUS9z1PADHyGj8NEfTixM7OIJ5xbLMirkW8bMCHpHaIf30sV5IzEZvbIa8K3AuT vmF/lCOpBg2Ij9FQhxyhXdqvTa23AA5pIp25Fwj+dkTtwjoL6QTqy8paLHkvpjQ/sn3O kwGzKRlCZhuvJWdLvq+OjRk+uY5SzJlgulcwbHmVFR9C0rCf5u5nrVu8u7HLWdoyfBlI S50sXFSBfc2c15qBMuUFJn+r+T9TWvL5/6bQU4HXOYwJKmSXe77zi5OPVp/ifcy0nro7 EAxtMpxereTIkaRY9wThmQNQdDYOsE/lJyKHjPG8SsrN2wa48G1P9L68zNXJzmNmwweP WDWw== X-Received: by 10.66.194.16 with SMTP id hs16mr55481326pac.93.1448497928248; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 16:32:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e007:639f:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781? ([2406:e007:639f:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f76sm23164327pfd.49.2015.11.25.16.32.04 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 25 Nov 2015 16:32:07 -0800 (PST) To: Toerless Eckert , "Joel M. Halpern" References: <565603B6.3030508@gmail.com> <20151125191407.GP29056@cisco.com> <56560C3F.9030304@gmail.com> <565613CC.1040903@joelhalpern.com> <20151125201711.GR29056@cisco.com> <5656181E.4000908@joelhalpern.com> <5656242F.7080703@gmail.com> <20151125215257.GT29056@cisco.com> <56563D92.6000109@joelhalpern.com> <20151125234035.GU29056@cisco.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: <5656530B.508@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 13:32:11 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20151125234035.GU29056@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: anima-bootstrap , anima-signaling@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Anima-bootstrap] Bootstrap discovery question X-BeenThere: anima-bootstrap@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for the bootstrap design team of the ANIMA WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 00:32:11 -0000 On 26/11/2015 12:40, Toerless Eckert wrote: > > So, with that said: What's your suggestion to best define in an extensible > fashion the locators for services/objectives with minimum new definitions and > maximum reuse of known/working IETF solutions. To me the known/working IETF > solutions are URLs and DNS-SD. I begin to suspect that you are using "locator" to mean more than I do. To me, a locator contains no semantics whatever. "= attributes" is not part of a locator. The value field of a GRASP objective is defined as "a single value or a data structure of any kind." So there's no problem if you want to embed whatever you want, such as = attributes. However, GRASP discovery is only aimed at discovering the locator of an ASA that supports a given objective, with the option of following up by synchronizing or negotiating the value. (And with Bing's favourite optimization, rapid mode discovery, you can discover a peer and fetch the value in one operation.) Again, there is nothing in GRASP that prevents using DNS-SD or URI formats, or HTML, XML, YANG or anything else you want, once you have found the locator of your peer. Equally, you can use pure binary if you like. (I agree that message sizes SHOULD be small, but they MAY be large.) Brian > > I do agree that so far a lot of stuff below the app-layer in the IETF has > created as many new registries for assigned name & numbers as threy could > (ok, maybe a bit cynical). I really wish we could come up with a framework > for anima that doesn't require contiguously new registries when new agents are > written. > > Cheers > Toerless > > On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 06:00:34PM -0500, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >> I think the problem is much simpler Toerless. >> You want to be able to use a specific format of URL in certain >> circumstances. That particular usage seems defensible. >> >> But if we want to do that, we need to make very clear that only that >> usage is allowed. Shipping arbitrary URLs around and expecting them to >> do the right thing seems at best over-optimistic. >> >> I agree that we should not invent new ways of packaging information. >> I am not at all sure I agree that a URL is the IETF agreed way for >> packaging information at any layer other than the application layer. >> >> Yours, >> Joel >> >> On 11/25/15 4:52 PM, Toerless Eckert wrote: >>> On Thu, Nov 26, 2015 at 10:12:15AM +1300, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>>> But I definitely disagree with Toerless that it would be reasonable to >>>> use a URI format for the purpose of carrying an (ACP) IP address. It's >>>> a very inefficient way to carry a 128 bit quantity that in the GRASP >>>> context is only needed for socket calls, so it never needs to be parsed >>>> or presented to a human. >>> >>> DNS-SD has string based = attributes. These >>> are carried together in a single mDNS packet if mDNS is used. AFAIK, >>> nobody ever argued that those have to generically be encoded more compact, >>> but of course everybody is aware of the UDP/mDNS packet size limitation >>> and makes ssure the total information does not exceed eg: 1280. >>> >>> Aka: My rule of thumb would be to always have a tight eye on fitting >>> GRASP service announcements within 1280 everything included. As long as >>> we feel safe on that, do as little additional optimization of pre-defined >>> data as necessary. >>> >>> If necessary, just have a CBOR binary ddress attribute and then define >>> a URL template to use in GRASP: >>> >>> scheme://%A/.... -> %A : Name resolves to address in element >>> >>> Btw: I think we do need to have the DNS-SD parameters as well so that >>> we wouldn't have to reinvent the wheel for services that are well defined >>> via DNS-SD definitions ;-)) >>> >>> Cheers >>> Toerless >>> >>>> >>>> Brian >>>> >>>>> >>>>> yours, >>>>> Joel >>>>> >>>>> On 11/25/15 3:17 PM, Toerless Eckert wrote: >>>>>> On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 03:02:20PM -0500, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >>>>>>> Yes, the key for me is what these "locators" are for. If they are for >>>>>>> Anima Applications, that makes sense. I can believe that there >>>>>>> applications for which a URL is a good location. If they are for the >>>>>>> bootstrap process itself, that seems problematic. >>>>>> >>>>>> What is bad about rfc7030 ? https:////.wellknown/est >>>>>> >>>>>> How else would you want to indicate that you can support bootstrap via >>>>>> RFC7030 ? >>>>>> Thats how it's defined. Only important details is not to use an FQDN >>>>>> for the >>>>>> IP address of the URL. >>>>>> >>>>>>> I will also note in passing that trying to use a URL as a way of >>>>>>> bundling several related but separate pieces of information seems >>>>>>> problematic. >>>>>> >>>>>> Whot ??? Why the heck do we have URLs ? The pieces in a URL are not >>>>>> several, >>>>>> unrelated pieces of information. The idea is to have URLs describing >>>>>> the minimum >>>>>> necessary pieces of information to actually locate a service. >>>>>> >>>>>>> Even burying the IP address and port number in the URL >>>>>>> domain portion does not seem to be a good idea unless that same URL is >>>>>>> what is to be used to send the resulting messages (for example if the >>>>>>> service were on top of SOAP). >>>>>> >>>>>> The EST connection would be established to the IPv6 address in the URL, >>>>>> right. >>>>>> >>>>>> There is no need for hostname DNS in ACP. Hostnames are just an >>>>>> optimization >>>>>> for services provided by only one host. I haven't seen a requirement to >>>>>> make >>>>>> ACP ervice discovery depend on having this redundant layer. >>>>>> >>>>>> Btw: The rfc7030 trust model for https:// between client and registrar >>>>>> in the ACP is >>>>>> NOT based on the client believing registrar.domain is valid because of >>>>>> some bogus >>>>>> CA signed cert for "registrar.domain", but because of >>>>>> >>>>>> a) The connection runs across an end-to-end trusted/encrypted transport >>>>>> (ACP). >>>>>> b) The IPv6 address of the registrar and the client are derived from >>>>>> their certificates. >>>>>> Aka: This is similar to the "registrar.domain" trust, only that >>>>>> its mutual >>>>>> and not dependent on random CAs, but both registrar and client >>>>>> cert are from the >>>>>> same CA. >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers >>>>>> Toerless >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Yours, >>>>>>> Joel >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 11/25/15 2:30 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>>>>>>> OK, I've cc'ed Joel as well since it was his review that triggered my >>>>>>>> question. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Agreed, if we want GRASP discovery to be capable of serving as a >>>>>>>> general-purpose >>>>>>>> discovery tool, we don't really need to justify the FQDN or URI/URL >>>>>>>> options. >>>>>>>> Joel's point was essentially the same as what you say below ("where >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> locator >>>>>>>> is in the ACP, we would require IPv6 address so that we do not >>>>>>>> introduce >>>>>>>> the need >>>>>>>> for ACP-wide DNS host-name lookup and registration"). So the FQDN and >>>>>>>> URI/URL >>>>>>>> options are not for "normal" GRASP operation. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Brian >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 26/11/2015 08:14, Toerless Eckert wrote: >>>>>>>>> [cc'ing signaling team ? (hopefully this is ok. to keep everybody in >>>>>>>>> sync] >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Forget about bootstrap, but in general: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> IMHO, URL/URI is the most important locator. When someone looks for a >>>>>>>>> service/objective, >>>>>>>>> it ultimately needs to get everything to build a protocol connection >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> achieve this >>>>>>>>> objective/connect-to-this-service. Which means so much more than >>>>>>>>> just IP* >>>>>>>>> adress, but also >>>>>>>>> transport protocol, port, higher layer protocols, etc. pp. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Why the heck would we want to have to reinvent messaging elements to >>>>>>>>> reinvent >>>>>>>>> signaling all those connection attributes if there is already one >>>>>>>>> solution for this: >>>>>>>>> URI. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Example, bootstrap: The bootstrap proxy agent needs to discover the >>>>>>>>> "an-registrar-enrollment" >>>>>>>>> service (i just made up that name, somebody had to do it ;-). In >>>>>>>>> return i >>>>>>>>> think you >>>>>>>>> would get back (according to RFC7030, 3.2.2): >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> https://{:}/.well-known/est >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Of course we could support multiple enrollment protocols, but every >>>>>>>>> proxy >>>>>>>>> that does >>>>>>>>> support rfc7030 would recognize this as a URI indicating RFC7030. >>>>>>>>> This is >>>>>>>>> because of >>>>>>>>> /.well-known/est. And it then knows the necessary transport protocol >>>>>>>>> pieces: IPv6 >>>>>>>>> addr and port and use of HTTPS. As a rule of thumb for services >>>>>>>>> where the >>>>>>>>> locator is >>>>>>>>> in the ACP, we would require IPv6 address so that we do not >>>>>>>>> introduce the >>>>>>>>> need for >>>>>>>>> ACP-wide DNS host-name lookup and registration. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> If there is a way to reuse more/better our existing IETF toolset, >>>>>>>>> please >>>>>>>>> chime in. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Cheers >>>>>>>>> Toerless >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Thu, Nov 26, 2015 at 07:53:42AM +1300, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Here's a hopefully simple question from the GRASP side of the house. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> If the bootstrap uses GRASP discovery, what sort of locator will >>>>>>>>>> it be trying to discover? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> At the moment GRASP has four locator types in the design: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> - IPv6 address >>>>>>>>>> - IPv4 address >>>>>>>>>> - FQDN >>>>>>>>>> - URL >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> It's been suggested by a reviewer that the URL option is >>>>>>>>>> unnecessary. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Regards >>>>>>>>>> Brian >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> Anima-bootstrap mailing list >>>>>>>>>> Anima-bootstrap@ietf.org >>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima-bootstrap >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>> > From nobody Wed Nov 25 16:46:50 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B22C1B335A; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 16:46:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id S2N7cOrX_nsu; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 16:46:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-x22c.google.com (mail-pa0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F222B1B3359; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 16:46:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by padhx2 with SMTP id hx2so72571641pad.1; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 16:46:47 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:organization:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=xQl8WbLzZYo3OjLgKLMJvEndgU29uD4HWs+GK9px/Cc=; b=uT/yI+VuiwbtVe/cMYW7zstipbPZrMGJOHU4+00+6UG/n6dz2TeB8pO7nPW/t9IpCY ALnKWFRUPqoAFnhPDH23GSAhd9KtJKus2f2ExeS9XKdeCrbULrz40D/9HA80FZCeC+B6 1M99VxmzscXRqxNZr/jZ6mGCISyYom978otdaPNqnVqWeSE/2a1qru0WXB/PhqWXrGdv o/l9njuFRB58Ux7BsZac8bQCssoD6FI/+JH5SrLTsKJaOcC+GssnzmTdF20Z5zEakh2X qC5lwbRByxGttc37ICHPJM8z68v8bkr7CtRmRsXES3I6h/t7HLZ7hEGROQnnkQJEzj2F YDhA== X-Received: by 10.98.7.66 with SMTP id b63mr35289309pfd.19.1448498807694; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 16:46:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e007:639f:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781? ([2406:e007:639f:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 186sm23184059pfa.24.2015.11.25.16.46.44 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 25 Nov 2015 16:46:46 -0800 (PST) To: Toerless Eckert , "Joel M. Halpern" References: <565603B6.3030508@gmail.com> <20151125191407.GP29056@cisco.com> <56560C3F.9030304@gmail.com> <565613CC.1040903@joelhalpern.com> <20151125201711.GR29056@cisco.com> <5656181E.4000908@joelhalpern.com> <5656242F.7080703@gmail.com> <20151125215257.GT29056@cisco.com> <56563D92.6000109@joelhalpern.com> <20151125234035.GU29056@cisco.com> <5656530B.508@gmail.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: <5656567B.8000904@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 13:46:51 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5656530B.508@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: anima-bootstrap , anima-signaling@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Anima-bootstrap] Bootstrap discovery question X-BeenThere: anima-bootstrap@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for the bootstrap design team of the ANIMA WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 00:46:49 -0000 Oops, missed this: > I really wish we could come up with a framework > for anima that doesn't require contiguously new registries when new agents are > written. Well, we've made it as simple as we can while preserving uniqueness: For generic objective names: Specification Required policy. For "vendor"-defined objective names: tagged with PEN or domain name (TBD). So, no new registry for proprietary or local ASAs. Hopefully we would end up with a small library of generic ones. Regards Brian From nobody Wed Nov 25 16:52:39 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 691F71A00FE; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 16:52:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.086 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.086 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6lhvuQjjGX49; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 16:52:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com [173.37.86.74]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8380A1A00FD; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 16:52:35 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=11702; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1448499155; x=1449708755; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references: mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=iELE1g6SY3JLaNJUidhqWs2A9jJS+6EApwV5sVU0UxA=; b=WqmW6Z8VOfSpG9E5eNJhPfH5YrJ6R87gc+9G/SbFDKsg56VaAjl+EdjG RvgdaCyODfvPpQI4uCpk0BYKDuGpoXyj0lPHFK3igfwccUdMD19PXLKTK XgiiWBR9X2QX5nuc8oGVi5Zr+7P9FaYRm5b47uqS7tmTk5tkEZNxtETRe s=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0DOAgBjVlZW/40NJK1egztTLAFCvjgBD?= =?us-ascii?q?YFkFwqFbgKBPDgUAQEBAQEBAYEKhDQBAQEDAQEBASQTLQcLBQsLGAklDwUTNhM?= =?us-ascii?q?biAsIDb5XAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBFASKTIEGiTkFjSJ2iD+NLAmBX?= =?us-ascii?q?IRBkk+Dch8BAUKEJR00hWABAQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,344,1444694400"; d="scan'208";a="53743929" Received: from alln-core-8.cisco.com ([173.36.13.141]) by rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 26 Nov 2015 00:52:34 +0000 Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (mcast-linux1.cisco.com [172.27.244.121]) by alln-core-8.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tAQ0qX2O003167 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 26 Nov 2015 00:52:34 GMT Received: from mcast-linux1.cisco.com (localhost.cisco.com [127.0.0.1]) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id tAQ0qXuZ019019; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 16:52:33 -0800 Received: (from eckert@localhost) by mcast-linux1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id tAQ0qXGG019018; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 16:52:33 -0800 Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 16:52:33 -0800 From: Toerless Eckert To: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <20151126005233.GX29056@cisco.com> References: <20151125191407.GP29056@cisco.com> <56560C3F.9030304@gmail.com> <565613CC.1040903@joelhalpern.com> <20151125201711.GR29056@cisco.com> <5656181E.4000908@joelhalpern.com> <5656242F.7080703@gmail.com> <20151125215257.GT29056@cisco.com> <56563D92.6000109@joelhalpern.com> <20151125234035.GU29056@cisco.com> <5656530B.508@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <5656530B.508@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i Archived-At: Cc: anima-bootstrap , "Joel M. Halpern" , anima-signaling@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Anima-bootstrap] Bootstrap discovery question X-BeenThere: anima-bootstrap@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for the bootstrap design team of the ANIMA WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 00:52:38 -0000 On Thu, Nov 26, 2015 at 01:32:11PM +1300, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > I begin to suspect that you are using "locator" to mean more than I do. > To me, a locator contains no semantics whatever. "= > attributes" is not part of a locator. Yes, good question how to most precisely define locator. IMHO the IP address, protocol (eg: UDP vs. TCP, HTTPs vs. HTTP) are part of locating the service. DNS-SD parameters may be that if they indicate such non-negotiable parts of establishing the connection. But they might also be something maybe better called "selector". > The value field of a GRASP objective is defined as "a single value or a data > structure of any kind." So there's no problem if you want to embed whatever > you want, such as = attributes. However, GRASP > discovery is only aimed at discovering the locator of an ASA that supports a > given objective, with the option of following up by synchronizing or negotiating > the value. (And with Bing's favourite optimization, rapid mode discovery, > you can discover a peer and fetch the value in one operation.) Well, lets understand the workflow needed to select one service/objective instance from multiple: Lets say GRASP client is asking for tghe objective, eg: bootstrap, and it gets three replies: -> reply 1 is for a protocol choice incompatible with the client. -> reply 2 is for a client supported protocol, but some inferior parameters -> reply 3 is for a client supported protocols, with better parameters In general, you want to be able to provide the necessary information (protocol/parameters) as part of the service/objective discovery, so that the client can immediately pick the best compatible one. Cheers Toerless > Again, there is nothing in GRASP that prevents using DNS-SD or URI formats, > or HTML, XML, YANG or anything else you want, once you have found the > locator of your peer. Equally, you can use pure binary if you like. > > (I agree that message sizes SHOULD be small, but they MAY be large.) > > Brian > > > > > > I do agree that so far a lot of stuff below the app-layer in the IETF has > > created as many new registries for assigned name & numbers as threy could > > (ok, maybe a bit cynical). I really wish we could come up with a framework > > for anima that doesn't require contiguously new registries when new agents are > > written. > > > > Cheers > > Toerless > > > > On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 06:00:34PM -0500, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > >> I think the problem is much simpler Toerless. > >> You want to be able to use a specific format of URL in certain > >> circumstances. That particular usage seems defensible. > >> > >> But if we want to do that, we need to make very clear that only that > >> usage is allowed. Shipping arbitrary URLs around and expecting them to > >> do the right thing seems at best over-optimistic. > >> > >> I agree that we should not invent new ways of packaging information. > >> I am not at all sure I agree that a URL is the IETF agreed way for > >> packaging information at any layer other than the application layer. > >> > >> Yours, > >> Joel > >> > >> On 11/25/15 4:52 PM, Toerless Eckert wrote: > >>> On Thu, Nov 26, 2015 at 10:12:15AM +1300, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > >>>> But I definitely disagree with Toerless that it would be reasonable to > >>>> use a URI format for the purpose of carrying an (ACP) IP address. It's > >>>> a very inefficient way to carry a 128 bit quantity that in the GRASP > >>>> context is only needed for socket calls, so it never needs to be parsed > >>>> or presented to a human. > >>> > >>> DNS-SD has string based = attributes. These > >>> are carried together in a single mDNS packet if mDNS is used. AFAIK, > >>> nobody ever argued that those have to generically be encoded more compact, > >>> but of course everybody is aware of the UDP/mDNS packet size limitation > >>> and makes ssure the total information does not exceed eg: 1280. > >>> > >>> Aka: My rule of thumb would be to always have a tight eye on fitting > >>> GRASP service announcements within 1280 everything included. As long as > >>> we feel safe on that, do as little additional optimization of pre-defined > >>> data as necessary. > >>> > >>> If necessary, just have a CBOR binary ddress attribute and then define > >>> a URL template to use in GRASP: > >>> > >>> scheme://%A/.... -> %A : Name resolves to address in element > >>> > >>> Btw: I think we do need to have the DNS-SD parameters as well so that > >>> we wouldn't have to reinvent the wheel for services that are well defined > >>> via DNS-SD definitions ;-)) > >>> > >>> Cheers > >>> Toerless > >>> > >>>> > >>>> Brian > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> yours, > >>>>> Joel > >>>>> > >>>>> On 11/25/15 3:17 PM, Toerless Eckert wrote: > >>>>>> On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 03:02:20PM -0500, Joel M. Halpern wrote: > >>>>>>> Yes, the key for me is what these "locators" are for. If they are for > >>>>>>> Anima Applications, that makes sense. I can believe that there > >>>>>>> applications for which a URL is a good location. If they are for the > >>>>>>> bootstrap process itself, that seems problematic. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> What is bad about rfc7030 ? https:////.wellknown/est > >>>>>> > >>>>>> How else would you want to indicate that you can support bootstrap via > >>>>>> RFC7030 ? > >>>>>> Thats how it's defined. Only important details is not to use an FQDN > >>>>>> for the > >>>>>> IP address of the URL. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> I will also note in passing that trying to use a URL as a way of > >>>>>>> bundling several related but separate pieces of information seems > >>>>>>> problematic. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Whot ??? Why the heck do we have URLs ? The pieces in a URL are not > >>>>>> several, > >>>>>> unrelated pieces of information. The idea is to have URLs describing > >>>>>> the minimum > >>>>>> necessary pieces of information to actually locate a service. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Even burying the IP address and port number in the URL > >>>>>>> domain portion does not seem to be a good idea unless that same URL is > >>>>>>> what is to be used to send the resulting messages (for example if the > >>>>>>> service were on top of SOAP). > >>>>>> > >>>>>> The EST connection would be established to the IPv6 address in the URL, > >>>>>> right. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> There is no need for hostname DNS in ACP. Hostnames are just an > >>>>>> optimization > >>>>>> for services provided by only one host. I haven't seen a requirement to > >>>>>> make > >>>>>> ACP ervice discovery depend on having this redundant layer. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Btw: The rfc7030 trust model for https:// between client and registrar > >>>>>> in the ACP is > >>>>>> NOT based on the client believing registrar.domain is valid because of > >>>>>> some bogus > >>>>>> CA signed cert for "registrar.domain", but because of > >>>>>> > >>>>>> a) The connection runs across an end-to-end trusted/encrypted transport > >>>>>> (ACP). > >>>>>> b) The IPv6 address of the registrar and the client are derived from > >>>>>> their certificates. > >>>>>> Aka: This is similar to the "registrar.domain" trust, only that > >>>>>> its mutual > >>>>>> and not dependent on random CAs, but both registrar and client > >>>>>> cert are from the > >>>>>> same CA. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Cheers > >>>>>> Toerless > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Yours, > >>>>>>> Joel > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On 11/25/15 2:30 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > >>>>>>>> OK, I've cc'ed Joel as well since it was his review that triggered my > >>>>>>>> question. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Agreed, if we want GRASP discovery to be capable of serving as a > >>>>>>>> general-purpose > >>>>>>>> discovery tool, we don't really need to justify the FQDN or URI/URL > >>>>>>>> options. > >>>>>>>> Joel's point was essentially the same as what you say below ("where > >>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>> locator > >>>>>>>> is in the ACP, we would require IPv6 address so that we do not > >>>>>>>> introduce > >>>>>>>> the need > >>>>>>>> for ACP-wide DNS host-name lookup and registration"). So the FQDN and > >>>>>>>> URI/URL > >>>>>>>> options are not for "normal" GRASP operation. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Brian > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On 26/11/2015 08:14, Toerless Eckert wrote: > >>>>>>>>> [cc'ing signaling team ? (hopefully this is ok. to keep everybody in > >>>>>>>>> sync] > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Forget about bootstrap, but in general: > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> IMHO, URL/URI is the most important locator. When someone looks for a > >>>>>>>>> service/objective, > >>>>>>>>> it ultimately needs to get everything to build a protocol connection > >>>>>>>>> to > >>>>>>>>> achieve this > >>>>>>>>> objective/connect-to-this-service. Which means so much more than > >>>>>>>>> just IP* > >>>>>>>>> adress, but also > >>>>>>>>> transport protocol, port, higher layer protocols, etc. pp. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Why the heck would we want to have to reinvent messaging elements to > >>>>>>>>> reinvent > >>>>>>>>> signaling all those connection attributes if there is already one > >>>>>>>>> solution for this: > >>>>>>>>> URI. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Example, bootstrap: The bootstrap proxy agent needs to discover the > >>>>>>>>> "an-registrar-enrollment" > >>>>>>>>> service (i just made up that name, somebody had to do it ;-). In > >>>>>>>>> return i > >>>>>>>>> think you > >>>>>>>>> would get back (according to RFC7030, 3.2.2): > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> https://{:}/.well-known/est > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Of course we could support multiple enrollment protocols, but every > >>>>>>>>> proxy > >>>>>>>>> that does > >>>>>>>>> support rfc7030 would recognize this as a URI indicating RFC7030. > >>>>>>>>> This is > >>>>>>>>> because of > >>>>>>>>> /.well-known/est. And it then knows the necessary transport protocol > >>>>>>>>> pieces: IPv6 > >>>>>>>>> addr and port and use of HTTPS. As a rule of thumb for services > >>>>>>>>> where the > >>>>>>>>> locator is > >>>>>>>>> in the ACP, we would require IPv6 address so that we do not > >>>>>>>>> introduce the > >>>>>>>>> need for > >>>>>>>>> ACP-wide DNS host-name lookup and registration. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> If there is a way to reuse more/better our existing IETF toolset, > >>>>>>>>> please > >>>>>>>>> chime in. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Cheers > >>>>>>>>> Toerless > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> On Thu, Nov 26, 2015 at 07:53:42AM +1300, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> Here's a hopefully simple question from the GRASP side of the house. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> If the bootstrap uses GRASP discovery, what sort of locator will > >>>>>>>>>> it be trying to discover? > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> At the moment GRASP has four locator types in the design: > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> - IPv6 address > >>>>>>>>>> - IPv4 address > >>>>>>>>>> - FQDN > >>>>>>>>>> - URL > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> It's been suggested by a reviewer that the URL option is > >>>>>>>>>> unnecessary. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Regards > >>>>>>>>>> Brian > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>>>> Anima-bootstrap mailing list > >>>>>>>>>> Anima-bootstrap@ietf.org > >>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima-bootstrap > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>> > > -- --- Toerless Eckert, eckert@cisco.com From nobody Wed Nov 25 17:25:02 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1DF81A87F1; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 17:24:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8_uRYGvvgOXp; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 17:24:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-x230.google.com (mail-pa0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 415C01A87EC; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 17:24:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by pacdm15 with SMTP id dm15so73383639pac.3; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 17:24:56 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:organization:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=tcz+v9LU2VzY0aZneL/6JmBw9I98ukKcWXkGXG10mec=; b=Omh0UArWpAij8eLKmoc7DxrB/CPqQm9IT1LZBxK0Tug/wFvu0PxefMnXIEqHBCm0gs xZb6wF+uVxIszMEU2U/FVjqTsU37XtN1GRYzga0yjO0e+4H/cRV8JBsExyJfYiBunCgF i9x91U5FYUw/gEg+42iEKFWEvotFmmfpn6LcgxueEOqWcOgTPI341bDipdHUEfFzMKq3 +/LWraOvjdJzNSEHspcDHMS8zcAMOWowekjoEf+PFB+Zpzmo16sKWOO2OQQU39CDVl4w 9mr5QA0LLTNMaGBiavcY7nVutsZlX9Msfuwpv6H8BinFKAZ5A+Ou1c+xt7wGkOHZfVli 4WLQ== X-Received: by 10.66.193.36 with SMTP id hl4mr55912024pac.153.1448501095912; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 17:24:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e007:639f:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781? ([2406:e007:639f:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id ck9sm23841690pad.28.2015.11.25.17.24.51 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 25 Nov 2015 17:24:54 -0800 (PST) To: Toerless Eckert References: <20151125191407.GP29056@cisco.com> <56560C3F.9030304@gmail.com> <565613CC.1040903@joelhalpern.com> <20151125201711.GR29056@cisco.com> <5656181E.4000908@joelhalpern.com> <5656242F.7080703@gmail.com> <20151125215257.GT29056@cisco.com> <56563D92.6000109@joelhalpern.com> <20151125234035.GU29056@cisco.com> <5656530B.508@gmail.com> <20151126005233.GX29056@cisco.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: <56565F6A.3060700@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 14:24:58 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20151126005233.GX29056@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: anima-bootstrap , "Joel M. Halpern" , anima-signaling@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Anima-bootstrap] Bootstrap discovery question X-BeenThere: anima-bootstrap@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for the bootstrap design team of the ANIMA WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 01:24:59 -0000 On 26/11/2015 13:52, Toerless Eckert wrote: > On Thu, Nov 26, 2015 at 01:32:11PM +1300, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> I begin to suspect that you are using "locator" to mean more than I do. >> To me, a locator contains no semantics whatever. "= >> attributes" is not part of a locator. > > Yes, good question how to most precisely define locator. > > IMHO the IP address, protocol (eg: UDP vs. TCP, HTTPs vs. HTTP) are part > of locating the service. DNS-SD parameters may be that if they indicate > such non-negotiable parts of establishing the connection. But they might > also be something maybe better called "selector". > >> The value field of a GRASP objective is defined as "a single value or a data >> structure of any kind." So there's no problem if you want to embed whatever >> you want, such as = attributes. However, GRASP >> discovery is only aimed at discovering the locator of an ASA that supports a >> given objective, with the option of following up by synchronizing or negotiating >> the value. (And with Bing's favourite optimization, rapid mode discovery, >> you can discover a peer and fetch the value in one operation.) > > Well, lets understand the workflow needed to select one service/objective > instance from multiple: > > Lets say GRASP client is asking for tghe objective, eg: bootstrap, > and it gets three replies: > > -> reply 1 is for a protocol choice incompatible with the client. > -> reply 2 is for a client supported protocol, but some inferior parameters > -> reply 3 is for a client supported protocols, with better parameters > > In general, you want to be able to provide the necessary information > (protocol/parameters) as part of the service/objective discovery, so > that the client can immediately pick the best compatible one. Yes. With GRASP as currently designed you would do that by executing discover/synch for an objective called, say "trust_relay" and the objective values returned would be [protocol_name, *parameter_value]. This is a case where the GRASP client wants all the replies, not just the first one. Brian > > Cheers > Toerless > >> Again, there is nothing in GRASP that prevents using DNS-SD or URI formats, >> or HTML, XML, YANG or anything else you want, once you have found the >> locator of your peer. Equally, you can use pure binary if you like. >> >> (I agree that message sizes SHOULD be small, but they MAY be large.) >> >> Brian >> >> >>> >>> I do agree that so far a lot of stuff below the app-layer in the IETF has >>> created as many new registries for assigned name & numbers as threy could >>> (ok, maybe a bit cynical). I really wish we could come up with a framework >>> for anima that doesn't require contiguously new registries when new agents are >>> written. >>> >>> Cheers >>> Toerless >>> >>> On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 06:00:34PM -0500, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >>>> I think the problem is much simpler Toerless. >>>> You want to be able to use a specific format of URL in certain >>>> circumstances. That particular usage seems defensible. >>>> >>>> But if we want to do that, we need to make very clear that only that >>>> usage is allowed. Shipping arbitrary URLs around and expecting them to >>>> do the right thing seems at best over-optimistic. >>>> >>>> I agree that we should not invent new ways of packaging information. >>>> I am not at all sure I agree that a URL is the IETF agreed way for >>>> packaging information at any layer other than the application layer. >>>> >>>> Yours, >>>> Joel >>>> >>>> On 11/25/15 4:52 PM, Toerless Eckert wrote: >>>>> On Thu, Nov 26, 2015 at 10:12:15AM +1300, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>>>>> But I definitely disagree with Toerless that it would be reasonable to >>>>>> use a URI format for the purpose of carrying an (ACP) IP address. It's >>>>>> a very inefficient way to carry a 128 bit quantity that in the GRASP >>>>>> context is only needed for socket calls, so it never needs to be parsed >>>>>> or presented to a human. >>>>> >>>>> DNS-SD has string based = attributes. These >>>>> are carried together in a single mDNS packet if mDNS is used. AFAIK, >>>>> nobody ever argued that those have to generically be encoded more compact, >>>>> but of course everybody is aware of the UDP/mDNS packet size limitation >>>>> and makes ssure the total information does not exceed eg: 1280. >>>>> >>>>> Aka: My rule of thumb would be to always have a tight eye on fitting >>>>> GRASP service announcements within 1280 everything included. As long as >>>>> we feel safe on that, do as little additional optimization of pre-defined >>>>> data as necessary. >>>>> >>>>> If necessary, just have a CBOR binary ddress attribute and then define >>>>> a URL template to use in GRASP: >>>>> >>>>> scheme://%A/.... -> %A : Name resolves to address in element >>>>> >>>>> Btw: I think we do need to have the DNS-SD parameters as well so that >>>>> we wouldn't have to reinvent the wheel for services that are well defined >>>>> via DNS-SD definitions ;-)) >>>>> >>>>> Cheers >>>>> Toerless >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Brian >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> yours, >>>>>>> Joel >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 11/25/15 3:17 PM, Toerless Eckert wrote: >>>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 03:02:20PM -0500, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >>>>>>>>> Yes, the key for me is what these "locators" are for. If they are for >>>>>>>>> Anima Applications, that makes sense. I can believe that there >>>>>>>>> applications for which a URL is a good location. If they are for the >>>>>>>>> bootstrap process itself, that seems problematic. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What is bad about rfc7030 ? https:////.wellknown/est >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> How else would you want to indicate that you can support bootstrap via >>>>>>>> RFC7030 ? >>>>>>>> Thats how it's defined. Only important details is not to use an FQDN >>>>>>>> for the >>>>>>>> IP address of the URL. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I will also note in passing that trying to use a URL as a way of >>>>>>>>> bundling several related but separate pieces of information seems >>>>>>>>> problematic. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Whot ??? Why the heck do we have URLs ? The pieces in a URL are not >>>>>>>> several, >>>>>>>> unrelated pieces of information. The idea is to have URLs describing >>>>>>>> the minimum >>>>>>>> necessary pieces of information to actually locate a service. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Even burying the IP address and port number in the URL >>>>>>>>> domain portion does not seem to be a good idea unless that same URL is >>>>>>>>> what is to be used to send the resulting messages (for example if the >>>>>>>>> service were on top of SOAP). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The EST connection would be established to the IPv6 address in the URL, >>>>>>>> right. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> There is no need for hostname DNS in ACP. Hostnames are just an >>>>>>>> optimization >>>>>>>> for services provided by only one host. I haven't seen a requirement to >>>>>>>> make >>>>>>>> ACP ervice discovery depend on having this redundant layer. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Btw: The rfc7030 trust model for https:// between client and registrar >>>>>>>> in the ACP is >>>>>>>> NOT based on the client believing registrar.domain is valid because of >>>>>>>> some bogus >>>>>>>> CA signed cert for "registrar.domain", but because of >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> a) The connection runs across an end-to-end trusted/encrypted transport >>>>>>>> (ACP). >>>>>>>> b) The IPv6 address of the registrar and the client are derived from >>>>>>>> their certificates. >>>>>>>> Aka: This is similar to the "registrar.domain" trust, only that >>>>>>>> its mutual >>>>>>>> and not dependent on random CAs, but both registrar and client >>>>>>>> cert are from the >>>>>>>> same CA. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Cheers >>>>>>>> Toerless >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Yours, >>>>>>>>> Joel >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 11/25/15 2:30 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>>>>>>>>> OK, I've cc'ed Joel as well since it was his review that triggered my >>>>>>>>>> question. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Agreed, if we want GRASP discovery to be capable of serving as a >>>>>>>>>> general-purpose >>>>>>>>>> discovery tool, we don't really need to justify the FQDN or URI/URL >>>>>>>>>> options. >>>>>>>>>> Joel's point was essentially the same as what you say below ("where >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> locator >>>>>>>>>> is in the ACP, we would require IPv6 address so that we do not >>>>>>>>>> introduce >>>>>>>>>> the need >>>>>>>>>> for ACP-wide DNS host-name lookup and registration"). So the FQDN and >>>>>>>>>> URI/URL >>>>>>>>>> options are not for "normal" GRASP operation. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Brian >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 26/11/2015 08:14, Toerless Eckert wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> [cc'ing signaling team ? (hopefully this is ok. to keep everybody in >>>>>>>>>>> sync] >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Forget about bootstrap, but in general: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> IMHO, URL/URI is the most important locator. When someone looks for a >>>>>>>>>>> service/objective, >>>>>>>>>>> it ultimately needs to get everything to build a protocol connection >>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> achieve this >>>>>>>>>>> objective/connect-to-this-service. Which means so much more than >>>>>>>>>>> just IP* >>>>>>>>>>> adress, but also >>>>>>>>>>> transport protocol, port, higher layer protocols, etc. pp. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Why the heck would we want to have to reinvent messaging elements to >>>>>>>>>>> reinvent >>>>>>>>>>> signaling all those connection attributes if there is already one >>>>>>>>>>> solution for this: >>>>>>>>>>> URI. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Example, bootstrap: The bootstrap proxy agent needs to discover the >>>>>>>>>>> "an-registrar-enrollment" >>>>>>>>>>> service (i just made up that name, somebody had to do it ;-). In >>>>>>>>>>> return i >>>>>>>>>>> think you >>>>>>>>>>> would get back (according to RFC7030, 3.2.2): >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> https://{:}/.well-known/est >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Of course we could support multiple enrollment protocols, but every >>>>>>>>>>> proxy >>>>>>>>>>> that does >>>>>>>>>>> support rfc7030 would recognize this as a URI indicating RFC7030. >>>>>>>>>>> This is >>>>>>>>>>> because of >>>>>>>>>>> /.well-known/est. And it then knows the necessary transport protocol >>>>>>>>>>> pieces: IPv6 >>>>>>>>>>> addr and port and use of HTTPS. As a rule of thumb for services >>>>>>>>>>> where the >>>>>>>>>>> locator is >>>>>>>>>>> in the ACP, we would require IPv6 address so that we do not >>>>>>>>>>> introduce the >>>>>>>>>>> need for >>>>>>>>>>> ACP-wide DNS host-name lookup and registration. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> If there is a way to reuse more/better our existing IETF toolset, >>>>>>>>>>> please >>>>>>>>>>> chime in. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Cheers >>>>>>>>>>> Toerless >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Nov 26, 2015 at 07:53:42AM +1300, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> Here's a hopefully simple question from the GRASP side of the house. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> If the bootstrap uses GRASP discovery, what sort of locator will >>>>>>>>>>>> it be trying to discover? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> At the moment GRASP has four locator types in the design: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> - IPv6 address >>>>>>>>>>>> - IPv4 address >>>>>>>>>>>> - FQDN >>>>>>>>>>>> - URL >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> It's been suggested by a reviewer that the URL option is >>>>>>>>>>>> unnecessary. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Regards >>>>>>>>>>>> Brian >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> Anima-bootstrap mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> Anima-bootstrap@ietf.org >>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima-bootstrap >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>> > From nobody Fri Nov 27 08:27:23 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 285871B3606 for ; Fri, 27 Nov 2015 08:27:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.486 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.486 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 75hMHP97AD2J for ; Fri, 27 Nov 2015 08:27:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A9A001B3604 for ; Fri, 27 Nov 2015 08:27:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2387A2009E; Fri, 27 Nov 2015 11:32:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 2D70E63753; Fri, 27 Nov 2015 11:27:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12F2F636C4; Fri, 27 Nov 2015 11:27:18 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: Brian E Carpenter In-Reply-To: <565603B6.3030508@gmail.com> References: <565603B6.3030508@gmail.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.3-dev; GNU Emacs 24.4.2 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Sender: mcr@sandelman.ca Archived-At: Cc: anima-bootstrap Subject: Re: [Anima-bootstrap] Bootstrap discovery question X-BeenThere: anima-bootstrap@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for the bootstrap design team of the ANIMA WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2015 16:27:21 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Here's a hopefully simple question from the GRASP side of the house. > If the bootstrap uses GRASP discovery, what sort of locator will > it be trying to discover? It would be a service. Are services represented by FQDNs or URLs? I suppose it could be an IPv6 (multicast) address. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBVliEYoCLcPvd0N1lAQIcTgf/ZhjYv3culrN6GsExRwgwcxh5jgQPCUs5 BV/N3df3vby1nxTbNjp5o4o9Yd/WG/2lc2gY5BzHW7Uyu3cBih2PRWAZBGvyvBna jeNkEQYTfO3gJ9qwScLrb7QqRUltEa+7rbAovD+k9z5ytj172Te6ucgpy7Q2v8VK aio42FwRSFrmw/A7nPUxcvVRGzCaKNlmpEa0t3J9CTEzh5zpTKjnIDdyHjEXHOLB CSznIgQ05l3EvjKxJPMnTMIaGsemH1DUK2S57EaKG5xNnQreS7LgvFCyFBXSsE8K G+HBXs9HUCqx5YNtVzpqkj4SRE/5FzF6AU/9bSwg/QV7DYawlf8ZtQ== =/wZn -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Fri Nov 27 10:47:25 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 626C31A1B3F for ; Fri, 27 Nov 2015 10:47:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ATwFNLY2bsxR for ; Fri, 27 Nov 2015 10:47:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-x232.google.com (mail-pa0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 226971A1B40 for ; Fri, 27 Nov 2015 10:47:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by pacej9 with SMTP id ej9so120974651pac.2 for ; Fri, 27 Nov 2015 10:47:21 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:organization:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=gmRcZuogVPk/Y2Srjdea9ExliM7Ftjd5tJQlvecMuuE=; b=cvtQ26URnPi7WN1Ign5ArvVBVFkbzTDbyYpPUAjX7Iz2gYH0mFD92s23XUHL85BCqN 6pYqC3UueqSeA3MTE/TCa5df3Pj3XZDhi4OKLIJZGeyoIfQyH/jPj+/hOt313kDc3oEo Q3+OB2r/zzhRmaZgkRunmTQlZaLquCAikd1njiH+ITamOO3qThJyulkAimTSgEqSQ0oc zYtzRbH95FpPnReyIzzCNMA2DUS4MozlS3MqtgrCXA5AAmGI/rLBwju1dc+esEc/tkVx OzfYoa/qihj45GZZq6G+pusLvS+ghETZS2XrBOjH0QQMBDT6CLspgdYe2ALra2qwC4mg vaag== X-Received: by 10.98.80.20 with SMTP id e20mr49788037pfb.23.1448650041745; Fri, 27 Nov 2015 10:47:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e007:5065:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781? ([2406:e007:5065:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id w20sm35462984pfi.55.2015.11.27.10.47.19 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 27 Nov 2015 10:47:20 -0800 (PST) To: Michael Richardson References: <565603B6.3030508@gmail.com> <28678.1448641638@sandelman.ca> From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: <5658A542.9020504@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2015 07:47:30 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <28678.1448641638@sandelman.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: anima-bootstrap Subject: Re: [Anima-bootstrap] Bootstrap discovery question X-BeenThere: anima-bootstrap@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for the bootstrap design team of the ANIMA WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2015 18:47:23 -0000 On 28/11/2015 05:27, Michael Richardson wrote: > > Brian E Carpenter wrote: > > Here's a hopefully simple question from the GRASP side of the house. > > > If the bootstrap uses GRASP discovery, what sort of locator will > > it be trying to discover? > > It would be a service. Are services represented by FQDNs or URLs? Not if it's inside a network which is still bootstrapping and doesn't yet have a name space. But GRASP is agnostic on that; it's for the bootstrap mechanism to decide. > I suppose it could be an IPv6 (multicast) address. Why multicast? Aren't you trying to discover a specific instance? Brian From nobody Mon Nov 30 00:50:00 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 182541B2CFB for ; Mon, 30 Nov 2015 00:49:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XHrKn6qf3zkS for ; Mon, 30 Nov 2015 00:49:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from lb3-smtp-cloud6.xs4all.net (lb3-smtp-cloud6.xs4all.net [194.109.24.31]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F391B1B2CFE for ; Mon, 30 Nov 2015 00:49:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from webmail.xs4all.nl ([194.109.20.212]) by smtp-cloud6.xs4all.net with ESMTP id nkpt1r0034aYjWA01kptTJ; Mon, 30 Nov 2015 09:49:54 +0100 Received: from [2001:983:a264:1:55fa:5709:2b12:f1c] by webmail.xs4all.nl with HTTP (HTTP/1.1 POST); Mon, 30 Nov 2015 09:49:53 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 09:49:53 +0100 From: peter van der Stok To: Michael Richardson Organization: vanderstok consultancy Mail-Reply-To: consultancy@vanderstok.org In-Reply-To: <13717.1448463285@sandelman.ca> References: <13717.1448463285@sandelman.ca> Message-ID: <688d88e6dc86ae236e3c987d1526fb40@xs4all.nl> X-Sender: stokcons@xs4all.nl (qvXCAR3bnmhKccCRFFijeEGb9wZjxXeB) User-Agent: XS4ALL Webmail Archived-At: Cc: anima-bootstrap Subject: Re: [Anima-bootstrap] IoT and scope of bootstrap X-BeenThere: anima-bootstrap@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: consultancy@vanderstok.org List-Id: Mailing list for the bootstrap design team of the ANIMA WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 08:49:59 -0000 Hi Michael, Your text proposal does not help me much. > +
> + > + Questions have been posed as to whether this solution is > suitable > + in general for Internet of Things (IoT) networks. In > general the > + answer is no, but the terminology of /> is > + best used to describe the boundaries. > + The above text is much more restrictive than the text below. > + > + Specifically, there are protocol aspects described here > which > might > + result in congestion collapse or energy-exhaustion of > intermediate > + battery powered routers in an LLN. Those types of networks > SHOULD > + NOT use this solution. > + > +
I think the text about battery-powered or energy harvesting devices is the more appropriate. What about text that formulates unwanted side effects coming from energy exhausted ("dead") nodes? I don't think the dying of a node is allowed to jeopardize the functioning for other nodes or cause congestion, as your text suggests. Some effort on getting this right is worthwhile, because I think the use of the anima Bootstrap may be interesting for the installation of large control networks, where the verification of the correct functioning of the network as such is clearly separated from the correct functioning of the (control-) application on top. Peter From nobody Mon Nov 30 13:40:02 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAC381B3791 for ; Mon, 30 Nov 2015 13:40:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.211 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.211 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VOdkbqiQIxq2 for ; Mon, 30 Nov 2015 13:40:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F302A1B3790 for ; Mon, 30 Nov 2015 13:39:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.21]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id C20192009E; Mon, 30 Nov 2015 16:45:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 9291663757; Mon, 30 Nov 2015 16:39:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7022563753; Mon, 30 Nov 2015 16:39:58 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: consultancy@vanderstok.org In-Reply-To: <688d88e6dc86ae236e3c987d1526fb40@xs4all.nl> References: <13717.1448463285@sandelman.ca> <688d88e6dc86ae236e3c987d1526fb40@xs4all.nl> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.3-dev; GNU Emacs 24.4.2 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Sender: mcr@sandelman.ca Archived-At: Cc: anima-bootstrap Subject: Re: [Anima-bootstrap] IoT and scope of bootstrap X-BeenThere: anima-bootstrap@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for the bootstrap design team of the ANIMA WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 21:40:01 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain peter van der Stok wrote: > Hi Michael, > Your text proposal does not help me much. Oh, I am sad. peter van der Stok wrote: >> +
>> + >> + Questions have been posed as to whether this solution is suitable >> + in general for Internet of Things (IoT) networks. In general the >> + answer is no, but the terminology of is >> + best used to describe the boundaries. >> + > The above text is much more restrictive than the text below. So, my intention is to make people argue why IoT should be covered, rather than assume it is unless not specified. >> + >> + Specifically, there are protocol aspects described here which might >> + result in congestion collapse or energy-exhaustion of intermediate >> + battery powered routers in an LLN. Those types of networks SHOULD >> + NOT use this solution. >> + >> +
> I think the text about battery-powered or energy harvesting devices is the > more appropriate. Agreed. > What about text that formulates unwanted side effects coming from energy > exhausted ("dead") nodes? > I don't think the dying of a node is allowed to jeopardize the functioning > for other nodes or cause congestion, as your text suggests. > Some effort on getting this right is worthwhile, because I think the use of > the anima Bootstrap may be interesting for the installation of large control > networks, where > the verification of the correct functioning of the network as such is clearly > separated from the correct functioning of the (control-) > application on top. Here is a use case that I imagine. There is an existing LLN with a 6LBR and a backbone connection. By construction, it has some energy constrained nodes in it, which function just fine. The LLN is to be expanded to service some new requirement. While the existing 6LBR can reach the new space, it won't work reliably enough, so a new 6LBR is installed in the new space. The 6LBR is ANIMA capable, and is mains powered, and the new backhaul will be 802.11. The new device doesn't have WEP/WPA keys (and the AP doesn't speak ANIMA), but it does speak the 6tisch join protocol, so it joins the existing LLN as a leaf. Then, using the LLN, it performs an *ANIMA* enrollment, with the LLN acting as a single "link" from the ANIMA point of view. Once enrolled, it has a domain specific certificate, has been provisioned with the right WEP key, and can now enable the wifi as backbone. Another use case might be a BFR in a cabinet that is being cabled up, but said cables are not yet "lit". It has been given a BTLE USB key into one of it's USB slots usually intended for firmware updates. The BFR does a pairing over BTLE with the installers' smartphone, and using rfc7688, and connects to the ACP that the smartphone is part of. The BFR is now "up" enough for the experts in the NOC to bring things up. They might need to configure the right lambdas for the 100G link to turn on... or instruct the cabling people which cable goes into which port. (cables *never* get mis-labelled..) In this context, the smartphone is energy constrained, and getting the ACP off of it ASAP would be important. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBVlzCK4CLcPvd0N1lAQLAJggAp+zaeUlWzveZgC7G8TNZ/w5bdEDflgoX CJ5wjh8Vl47jaDnClP5RUoNXthccLZb35fgMHzUiZL7vwbG0ZfzhDmha7+tDVgbE MjXJ7NdE2CvyZt94B8Iqgegx2FnzMiE0gmLd+eH62sv186bo4c6Yh3hM/x8pv3uR 7k6h5yALZI36rr9SKXdKDihXEj/PTAZ4i4EN00xOMZFpRk8BWUCUGFCAflrwyLK8 WyXq9LN82DM1EMUyKBOiuluCd7fid2yDVS2DnsBm6bfnasng0F1hmPHQctzow/WZ WeU4xEA1vOakyx3V4hg3J1aGx8SxX1dB0ksNA6tM5zeN2dYZQfQ5Jg== =XChD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=--