From nobody Thu Jan 14 08:17:58 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AB011A1A32 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 2016 08:17:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.5 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.5 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, WEIRD_PORT=0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oNjUjfj-vLuv for ; Thu, 14 Jan 2016 08:17:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com [173.37.86.72]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 266DC1A1A17 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 2016 08:17:54 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=9160; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1452788273; x=1453997873; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version; bh=PtSuVbAWBVH2ilbjidEKPoEoMbRnL5fZpmq+G68T98w=; b=QI1HkZvlyJo1BP4p/7k7GGrIxD+6tPfPEZaWym7BtIlvbmTDIwV7lqS+ esoM13Fo3W2chwVA9KBOm/ng+KEIp+uYH9qfT1+En1h4LLaYjpgMi3cPP OxuSuevCWaFlPR3C0OTLs2163LQM1sZz4m7wMZJAE+xCcummJjXzItBIc I=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0BIAAAgyZdW/5BdJa1EFwOCbkxSbQaEH?= =?us-ascii?q?IQ5siJ2AQ1/BWAdhRN9gR44FAEBAQEBAQGBCoQ3BCNDJQEMKAQMBgIEMCQCAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?DARIIiBEDEg47r12FMYsFAQEBAQEBAQECAQEBAQEBAQEBEQmNEQGBEoF2WQeCT?= =?us-ascii?q?4FJBY18iRoBhUOIEIIvjFmOWAEgAQFCghEcgQ5PcgGFKIEIAQEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos; i="5.22,295,1449532800"; d="scan'208,217"; a="67174054" Received: from rcdn-core-8.cisco.com ([173.37.93.144]) by rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 14 Jan 2016 16:17:52 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-008.cisco.com (xch-aln-008.cisco.com [173.36.7.18]) by rcdn-core-8.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u0EGHrSs032351 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 14 Jan 2016 16:17:53 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-003.cisco.com (173.37.102.13) by XCH-ALN-008.cisco.com (173.36.7.18) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Thu, 14 Jan 2016 10:17:52 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-003.cisco.com ([173.37.102.13]) by XCH-RCD-003.cisco.com ([173.37.102.13]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Thu, 14 Jan 2016 10:17:52 -0600 From: "Toerless Eckert (eckert)" To: "Max Pritikin (pritikin)" , "Jason Coleman (colemaj)" , "mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca" , "ietf@sandeep.de" , "Michael Behringer (mbehring)" , "alper.yegin@yegin.org" , "jiangsheng@huawei.com" , "leo.liubing@huawei.com" , "brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com" , "kwatsen@juniper.net" , "anima-bootstrap@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Weekly Webex invite for anima bootstrap team meeting Thread-Index: AdE34cx1gXFHBFwsmky5Li84+1zjog== Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2016 16:17:52 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.32.225.68] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_af9a5903cea24117a56c0c527d97fa4bXCHRCD003ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: [Anima-bootstrap] Weekly Webex invite for anima bootstrap team meeting X-BeenThere: anima-bootstrap@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for the bootstrap design team of the ANIMA WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2016 16:17:56 -0000 --_000_af9a5903cea24117a56c0c527d97fa4bXCHRCD003ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Added URL for non-US dialin numbers to the webex. Outlook invite for new series with IETF Webex set up by Michael Richardson. Time: Weekly, Thursday, 1600UTC. Etherpad: http://etherpad.tools.ietf.org:9000/p/anima-boostrapping?useMonospaceFont= =3Dtrue (note typo in boostrapping) iCal: https://calendar.google.com/calendar/event?action=3DTEMPLATE&tmeid=3DMHR0aj= RtbDM2MnU1NmU2YW9ocWtrNGY2ZG9fMjAxNTEyMTBUMTYwMDAwWiBtY2hhcmxlc3JAbQ&tmsrc= =3Dmcharlesr%40gmail.com Webex set up by Michael Richardson : Dialin: https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=3Dm09ce76fb7e9ae7af015d3033b42c54c2 meeting number: 649 770 742 Meeting password: bootstrap 1-877-668-4493 Call-in toll free number (US/Canada) 1-650-479-3208 Call-in toll number (US/Canada) More global dialin numbers: https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/globalcallin.php --_000_af9a5903cea24117a56c0c527d97fa4bXCHRCD003ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Added URL for non-US dialin numbers to the webex.
Outlook invite for new series with IETF Webex set up by Michael Richar= dson.

Time= :

Week= ly, Thursday, 1600UTC.


Ethe= rpad:

http= ://etherpad.tools.ietf.org:9000/p/anima-boostrapping?useMonospaceFont=3Dtru= e

(not= e typo in boostrapping)


iCal= :

http= s://calendar.google.com/calendar/event?action=3DTEMPLATE&tmeid=3DMHR0aj= RtbDM2MnU1NmU2YW9ocWtrNGY2ZG9fMjAxNTEyMTBUMTYwMDAwWiBtY2hhcmxlc3JAbQ&tm= src=3Dmcharlesr%40gmail.com



Webe= x set up by Michael Richardson :

Dial= in:

http= s://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=3Dm09ce76fb7e9ae7af015d3033b42c54c2

meet= ing number: 649 770 742

Meet= ing password: bootstrap

1-87= 7-668-4493 Call-in toll free number (US/Canada)

1-65= 0-479-3208 Call-in toll number (US/Canada)

More= global dialin numbers:

http= s://ietf.webex.com/ietf/globalcallin.php


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[IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CB5D637A0 for ; Sat, 16 Jan 2016 23:36:38 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: anima-bootstrap X-Attribution: mcr X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.6+dev; GNU Emacs 24.4.2 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: [Anima-bootstrap] joiner router stateful/stateless considerations X-BeenThere: anima-bootstrap@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for the bootstrap design team of the ANIMA WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2016 04:36:41 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I finished writing: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-richardson-anima-state-for-joinrouter-00 (I had another draft name, but it turns outs there is a 50 character limit = on draft names) Abstract: This document explores a number of issues affecting the decision to use a stateful or stateless forwarding mechanism by the join router (aka join assistant) during the bootstrap process for ANIMA. I have 6 possible technologies that the joining router could use. They fall into three categories from the point of view of the new node: 1) HTTPS 2) HTTPS via http-proxy 3) CoAP/DTLS. 1&2 could be unified if the registar is willing to accept an HTTP CONNECT command via HTTP (and always connect to itself), and then do HTTPS. I realize that I did not describe a method 7, which is a circuit/NAT method for CoAP. The Joining Router/Registrar interface is possibly agnostic about HTTPS vs CoAPS for the IPIP methods. From=20the new node point of view, if we were to make CoAPS mandator to imp= lement on the joining router, and HTTP optional that would make the IoT space work best. On the registrar<->Joining Router point of view, one could make either IPIP or circuit proxy MTI. The IPIP method is more difficult to implement on the registrar, so some might argue for making it optional; but really it's about simplifying the Joining Router. The IPIP mechanisms are already required in the RPL space, and Pascal and 6= lo are working at ways to compress the IPIP header already. It's possible to seperate the IPIP decapsulation from the registrar, but a bit messy. If one terminates the DTLS/TLS on the IPIP decapsulator, it's mu= ch easier, and that would be something one would do if one had to scale the registrar beyond a single machine. =2D- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBVpsaU4CLcPvd0N1lAQIUBQgAwyi3Z/rgsKjnrb/ZFSXhfBLhHUDi3NF1 iIfyEYTEjf7fII43bN43fXtZIlKNaZejew0cUD4bEWqrCgqUQN0W0m9blNMrqd2Y HRzUZza/GLrU6km1icd4RNwKx3tmlGRYCcr8loRcvB4yS8Bt4lN+7dNx1t3ZSd3L UZ72srP1MAdjj8J8VeevT3Ek0eO1wGO5nqPQ/ivtLPox7/07mkMHk3NjaUvgvuA0 8a1KOlEI2rHEFeDahcKrSYTFp1rQsjmXoa2U2C5R4EAj9d6fN6SMhUSNVHzdPEvj ESGQb8CvFx2TaOjNhzub2S8+MO3H+k9TEC3AR30glxFt5T8OWkKZuw== =lTUI -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Tue Jan 19 03:13:33 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B8C41B2AE4 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2016 03:13:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.251 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.251 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id R81gMPyJpAHb for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2016 03:13:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from lb2-smtp-cloud2.xs4all.net (lb2-smtp-cloud2.xs4all.net [194.109.24.25]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A5A1D1B2AEE for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2016 03:13:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from webmail.xs4all.nl ([194.109.20.216]) by smtp-cloud2.xs4all.net with ESMTP id 7nDN1s00F4fjQrE01nDNUV; Tue, 19 Jan 2016 12:13:23 +0100 Received: from AMontpellier-654-1-17-221.w90-0.abo.wanadoo.fr ([90.0.32.221]) by webmail.xs4all.nl with HTTP (HTTP/1.1 POST); Tue, 19 Jan 2016 12:13:22 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2016 12:13:22 +0100 From: peter van der Stok To: Michael Richardson Organization: vanderstok consultancy Mail-Reply-To: consultancy@vanderstok.org In-Reply-To: <3993.1453005398@obiwan.sandelman.ca> References: <3993.1453005398@obiwan.sandelman.ca> Message-ID: <792a80be15de2b353298752e7b8d160d@xs4all.nl> X-Sender: stokcons@xs4all.nl (HtNpLTgwbaOJxdeyfgdsFvCWbytgQRrB) User-Agent: XS4ALL Webmail Archived-At: Cc: anima-bootstrap Subject: Re: [Anima-bootstrap] joiner router stateful/stateless considerations X-BeenThere: anima-bootstrap@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: consultancy@vanderstok.org List-Id: Mailing list for the bootstrap design team of the ANIMA WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2016 11:13:31 -0000 Hi Richard, Thanks for the joinrouter document. It has certainly contributed to my understanding. To clarify how far we are aligned, I like to describe my view on the managed (and “constrained”) network. After that I do have a suggestion and a question. I will use the term managed network throughout, principally mapped from the building control network that I know best. A managed network has at least two interested parties for its management: (1) the network administrator as described in anima-reference-model, and (2) the provider of the managed network functions. These two co-exist to-day, but with the progressive movement from special purpose “proprietary” network standards (like BACnet) connected via gateways to Internet towards flat full IP networks, their relation changes. Both have a responsibility for the correct functioning of these networks, where managed network functions may (should) rely on the IP infra-structure managed by the administrator. Contrary to the view expressed in anima-reference-model, the devices which constitute a managed network share a standardized IP stack. This stack standardizes the routing protocol, the discovery protocol, use of DNS. Also contrary to the view of anima-reference-model, the installation of the services running on the managed network may be facilitated by a human installer which specifies the names of services and devices, and establishes the secure relation between clients and servers. In my opinion, it is beneficial when there is a common automated bootstrapping standard that is acceptable to the network administrator and the provider of the managed network. The advantage for the provider of the managed network is that there is a shared understanding of a correctly functioning network on top of which the managed network services can be installed. The advantage for the administrator is that he exerts some minimal control over the network. Once this view is accepted, there are some complicating aspects for the anima bootstrapping process. There is the “managed network” part with the standardized stack without ASAs - possibly using DTLS with CoAP-, and there is the more complex Internet with ASAs - probably using http with TLS-. If it is reasonable to include the “managed network” devices into the anima bootstrapping process, I suggest that the anima bootstrapping services both types of networks. That may mean that 2 solutions from the ones proposed in joinrouter document are chosen. Having written that, my question concerns figure 1 of keyinfra draft. Two arrows are shown between new entity and Proxy with L2 and L3. I understand that this means that payloads are encoded at L2 or at L3. I am not sure that I understand how this works, because L2 security provisioning between for example 802.11 and 802.15.4 devices is different. Maintaining both the L2 and L3 option means that the security levels need to be aligned between the different link technologies and layer 3 technologies. That looks like an addition to the IP over foo documents. Is that correct? Hope this helps, Peter Michael Richardson schreef op 2016-01-17 05:36: > I finished writing: > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-richardson-anima-state-for-joinrouter-00 > > (I had another draft name, but it turns outs there is a 50 character > limit on > draft names) > > Abstract: > This document explores a number of issues affecting the decision to > use a stateful or stateless forwarding mechanism by the join router > (aka join assistant) during the bootstrap process for ANIMA. > > > I have 6 possible technologies that the joining router could use. > They fall into three categories from the point of view of the new node: > 1) HTTPS > 2) HTTPS via http-proxy > 3) CoAP/DTLS. > > 1&2 could be unified if the registar is willing to accept an HTTP > CONNECT > command via HTTP (and always connect to itself), and then do HTTPS. > > I realize that I did not describe a method 7, which is a circuit/NAT > method for CoAP. > > The Joining Router/Registrar interface is possibly agnostic about HTTPS > vs > CoAPS for the IPIP methods. > > From the new node point of view, if we were to make CoAPS mandator to > implement > on the joining router, and HTTP optional that would make the IoT space > work > best. > > On the registrar<->Joining Router point of view, one could make either > IPIP > or circuit proxy MTI. The IPIP method is more difficult to implement > on the > registrar, so some might argue for making it optional; but really it's > about > simplifying the Joining Router. > The IPIP mechanisms are already required in the RPL space, and Pascal > and 6lo > are working at ways to compress the IPIP header already. > > It's possible to seperate the IPIP decapsulation from the registrar, > but a > bit messy. If one terminates the DTLS/TLS on the IPIP decapsulator, > it's much > easier, and that would be something one would do if one had to scale > the > registrar beyond a single machine. > > -- > Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works > -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Anima-bootstrap mailing list > Anima-bootstrap@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/anima-bootstrap From nobody Tue Jan 19 08:04:09 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B36E41B311D for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2016 08:04:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SfkbG8WfRwE4 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2016 08:04:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 697E81B3119 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2016 08:04:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.21]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02F56200A5; Tue, 19 Jan 2016 11:12:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from obiwan.sandelman.ca (ip6-localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 304E6637A0; Tue, 19 Jan 2016 11:04:01 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: consultancy@vanderstok.org In-Reply-To: <792a80be15de2b353298752e7b8d160d@xs4all.nl> References: <3993.1453005398@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <792a80be15de2b353298752e7b8d160d@xs4all.nl> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.6+dev; GNU Emacs 24.4.2 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Cc: anima-bootstrap Subject: Re: [Anima-bootstrap] joiner router stateful/stateless considerations X-BeenThere: anima-bootstrap@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for the bootstrap design team of the ANIMA WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2016 16:04:07 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable peter van der Stok wrote: > Hi Richard, {Michael :-)} > To clarify how far we are aligned, I like to describe my view on the = managed > (and =E2=80=9Cconstrained=E2=80=9D) network. After that I do have a s= uggestion and a > question. I think that I missed the suggestion, maybe it's in here: > Once this view is accepted, there are some complicating aspects for t= he anima > bootstrapping process. There is the =E2=80=9Cmanaged network=E2=80=9D= part with the > standardized stack without ASAs - possibly using DTLS with CoAP-, > and there is the more complex Internet with ASAs - probably using htt= p with > TLS-. If it is reasonable to include the =E2=80=9Cmanaged network=E2= =80=9D devices into the > anima bootstrapping process, I **SUGGEST** that the anima bootstrappi= ng services > both types of networks. That may mean that 2 solutions from the ones = proposed > in joinrouter document are chosen. Which two solutions would you pick? From=20the new node to joining router, we have three options: A) CoAP/DTLS, B) HTTPS, C) HTTPS over HTTP proxy. I prefer (A) as MTI, with (C) as MAY. From=20the joining router to the registrar, I prefer method 6, CoAP/DTLS wi= th IPIP tunnel. I think that this works the best in a constrained network, where I do not expect to see an ACP. At the edge of the contrained network, the 6LBR might have an ACP, and would further route the join the traffic that way. The IPIP header might be addressed to the 6LBR, and re-encapsulated by the 6LBR as well, but that would involve some state (methods 1 or 2) on the 6LBR: That may be acceptab= le. I'm trying also to build a system that could also be initiated from the registrar to new node direction, as I've proposed in 6tisch. > Having written that, my question concerns figure 1 of keyinfra draft.= Two > arrows are shown between new entity and Proxy with L2 and L3. I under= stand > that this means that payloads are encoded at L2 or at L3. I am not su= re that > I understand how this works, because L2 security provisioning between= for > example 802.11 and 802.15.4 devices is different. Maintaining both th= e L2 and > L3 option means that the security levels need to be aligned between t= he > different link technologies and layer 3 technologies. That looks like= an > addition to the IP over foo documents. Is that correct? I think that the point is that we don't know (in this document, at this stage) precisely if the new node and proxy communicate at layer 2 (e.g. 802= .1x) or layer 3 (PANA, CoAP/HTTP, etc.). That's why it says "or" =2D- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBVp5ebYCLcPvd0N1lAQKWEggAhm/99y+8bZzqFyQiqBsr8ydhWrgRlW2r fvB9G81LDXlkS0MUztOSPBD/tTjfbybRoOI/TZCdNqZY93rhlXyeXshQbuiv9IEH s5KkPRzkVxFPucs2XBNmWAZyH1ljiywE20aXFketNsD9rpksKsAAZd478Zw3IOf7 lkDUGCgX+WDzdPv7X1aMHFr2F2dVxKopwIS1s9TrxG+hezf0yvd0/qW3dmz3x9l8 2tOrzGE3iw8yUjnkLRDsaZRSb1wOPwAASqeI0mYeI116N87c/ez4vciNOO8m0x4F Z2FmgzC9CQWUnlkMuENeVOLtZYK2FaDOdOj3ko/iTS3ti8gQZ467jg== =HTri -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Tue Jan 19 11:09:57 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EB9F1B3478 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2016 11:09:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tbCK7B97db5c for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2016 11:09:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-x229.google.com (mail-pa0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 233171B3472 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2016 11:09:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pa0-x229.google.com with SMTP id yy13so363249924pab.3 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2016 11:09:54 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:organization:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=To9CaS5B3x2XgM5NZZlrbUdFuKVE4MZIGG3tVFwiLJM=; b=VmJd/Mc/2lU+HTD8xIek/RnZz0TZbB3a6KTt4TxkcO4snUogq8Pz6CZo8n7NBWBmVt jCz9Sne5ju/mDa2F5qgm3O/WtgDJEqDei51UegbkBEzsi/fBSbZy0t98UVe9oi7+bxJW JI0X3yJxcoUzo7tXYvU1u6WKzIhiA8gEJGzmR3aS/KUhs9oyoATBA6sd6YeckrIGsiqd mdeQG8IQA02eaMIjC7JNLJjZxwdNyyaSMWQ1VxIxlj8nhBRRaPw8sJ7wKTpCK2WJzqUI x1WHuXHfq2zM8XJuONLpZ+q01JBHw1byoilYGDGxCw2Pd+1bq4xFTMNO7LE32qswf+4M 8Hvw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:cc:from:organization :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=To9CaS5B3x2XgM5NZZlrbUdFuKVE4MZIGG3tVFwiLJM=; b=E91bU0xLtQIUPid4yCw909L0MV+PBKgsiIygRuC+zKEYyigCP9z8CN2nPZZaon7m5B 95Cd2XBm92aymYQNFfzZXI89l32/Z6EJjJP3KdZldMaF1icGCwWDAD1kkErWJGGOrB7d zGqzDrdqcVfrvwfPCsv2jMHY53vix+gRDBiCf4hBGtq8b49hGSflE48C+Qc0rYJLRUsm 5kM3MjQkieaVUz7BjQzgK3gKzPfO5UMBlQMSr2PWGGQw+nLm1FGh7awNpZXEyF4WCrSq 66ELaD+TCXr/ZdNnLj9k0vsVWQF1dgEWtBj4oQash6/TwbqOAnQEGY9Thr0WLDeXLqgv BEIw== X-Gm-Message-State: AG10YOQcv+D5H6S2XfYolE1nRUyJ0UdxVm2LsIk57YO3F+n2oQzC6Rnijb3Ig1IsNvswTw== X-Received: by 10.67.22.166 with SMTP id ht6mr2301228pad.9.1453230593788; Tue, 19 Jan 2016 11:09:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e007:7176:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781? ([2406:e007:7176:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i76sm43200160pfj.68.2016.01.19.11.09.50 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 19 Jan 2016 11:09:52 -0800 (PST) To: consultancy@vanderstok.org, Michael Richardson References: <3993.1453005398@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <792a80be15de2b353298752e7b8d160d@xs4all.nl> From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: <569E8A03.6020809@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 08:09:55 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <792a80be15de2b353298752e7b8d160d@xs4all.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Cc: anima-bootstrap Subject: Re: [Anima-bootstrap] joiner router stateful/stateless considerations X-BeenThere: anima-bootstrap@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for the bootstrap design team of the ANIMA WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2016 19:09:55 -0000 Hi Peter, On 20/01/2016 00:13, peter van der Stok wrote: =2E.. > There is the =E2=80=9Cmanaged network=E2=80=9D part with the standardiz= ed stack without ASAs - possibly using DTLS with CoAP-,=20 Then it's not part of Anima. But I don't understand why you make the assu= mption "without ASAs". Or do you just mean "without needing an ASA and GRASP during bootstrap"? =2E.. > and there is the more complex Internet with ASAs - probably using http = with TLS- I assume you mean using https for bootstrap, since ASAs use GRASP over the ACP (or possibly GRASP over TLS) for normal operation. Even so I don't understand why https would be the probable choice for boo= tstrap. Brian From nobody Tue Jan 19 12:40:12 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F18A1B35F6 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2016 12:40:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WZx9d0lNYdzc for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2016 12:40:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ACB9E1B35F5 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2016 12:40:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 611B9200A5; Tue, 19 Jan 2016 15:48:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from obiwan.sandelman.ca (ip6-localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3D4C637A0; Tue, 19 Jan 2016 15:40:07 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: Brian E Carpenter In-Reply-To: <569E8A03.6020809@gmail.com> References: <3993.1453005398@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <792a80be15de2b353298752e7b8d160d@xs4all.nl> <569E8A03.6020809@gmail.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.6+dev; GNU Emacs 24.4.2 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Cc: anima-bootstrap , consultancy@vanderstok.org Subject: Re: [Anima-bootstrap] joiner router stateful/stateless considerations X-BeenThere: anima-bootstrap@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for the bootstrap design team of the ANIMA WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2016 20:40:10 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> and there is the more complex Internet with ASAs - probably using http with TLS- > I assume you mean using https for bootstrap, since ASAs use GRASP over > the ACP (or possibly GRASP over TLS) for normal operation. > Even so I don't understand why https would be the probable choice for bootstrap. EST (RFC7030) runs over HTTPS. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBVp6fJYCLcPvd0N1lAQL7aAf+IIcUZafaRuV1KAAYJNzY9WQ0x9m6aEo0 5We00VANLKvSEM6nFOEJJ5d+mBEpATLDzEok1AQahKUmj4AZLhVgGmafZ4sBw0xV 2Qdt2O+KboJFOPrbkU1HtmCOOs0i7Q/VUXXlWgeJImh7fWKyJc2ZiWTQXGZxWBV4 Ia1h5fXQDXyFr65X4DVgwQVIznYPvCtfWOMn5RE7lDsQKwgI+RfEX0dkwz7fTOWC kTFuRtBUl+V898RtNFki/qqK9FQ2welpJa8/fXsJJjlwCFq/s7LD/mEDsQ1IOOe4 FyfwsNZhsW3kSCyHPkud8hxniRpOAqaUVf0oVxeR3VDkg6cQuoEeeQ== =euPK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Tue Jan 19 13:26:51 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE5831B3670 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2016 13:26:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YhHeMDeYvKrZ for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2016 13:26:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-x22b.google.com (mail-pa0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 30A7B1B366A for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2016 13:26:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pa0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id ho8so196835753pac.2 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2016 13:26:48 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:organization:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=6bWfFj1UcGr3terGn+YH9bFolEF8RLE8P5qwEb2u8qY=; b=nx2Aezt3YheXAo0ZqbIPKUqkWJcHvrcW88rjD6F3fgJdrZ6aEueYNh8xEeE2hKrjix TftKqfPzDENGmtMY5fQGbsELy619V7zyRg4Dw1NmSFN11pwNcIRp2Nc80FYEmAIgSo0j VOwhlRQF69lPFTOikabPyqUHxfaUR7RZ9j5wJ12ebc6Zl1IhB23BZvo9Shx+s+X9EP7C Y9LxOKqIqcnTkObdjCjbeF0DiBOGrKaDbKIw1Kq0yJXbNqfWmgLJEh1FzICvUN6OoAcK m2X038+ybNM/ORR3qKAnlTViRK8NSskBcsQqJOvl/jfMLuC8dHdLcS6Wpe37CtY5cJ9g 6FXQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:cc:from:organization :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=6bWfFj1UcGr3terGn+YH9bFolEF8RLE8P5qwEb2u8qY=; b=DV4sXqbnK14ovp+LXsvcOKv1yRE6wSLK7PqAwHbb4Tk+6dvCpU6/V43kNWZ2SVx9Y/ QYmYvtQNQY8TpSmp9VqKXSsfOxd8TaIF1KKhuWGzL2IWnrmo057hth0H0z1Qoy+Gwa6b OZAMDrOR9LgbZQkbld3KtYlcVqzgLxcTcAvzr3bHor8jDKTRcPBirP60qgiUHPTcVnD4 0xEwJ5E89ovQyupWFSMsyoYvPfbvv5NxN0frqsoFMEDBeczsnJuEtnRil/tNrT09h1mG 5VIuWbs/IfZUxoyLnhblQOQxoWv9xpXGA/iqB838zs5PTmL8fm78LqYluI/VDYleKLj8 mi7A== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnM9KcID7PbMUwaPSfawlVfjYq28fWi9hLjr0H1KjFryIva6sZC53ZxLBUhAsjrZnpRuwJvLIZdwDqfEz7NqTZ3jJtpTw== X-Received: by 10.66.140.39 with SMTP id rd7mr47384196pab.86.1453238807867; Tue, 19 Jan 2016 13:26:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2001:df0:0:2006:c0da:ac17:5f6d:8e76? ([2001:df0:0:2006:c0da:ac17:5f6d:8e76]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 63sm43578364pfo.67.2016.01.19.13.26.45 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 19 Jan 2016 13:26:46 -0800 (PST) To: Michael Richardson References: <3993.1453005398@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <792a80be15de2b353298752e7b8d160d@xs4all.nl> <569E8A03.6020809@gmail.com> <3931.1453236007@obiwan.sandelman.ca> From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: <569EAA1A.7090402@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 10:26:50 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3931.1453236007@obiwan.sandelman.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: anima-bootstrap , consultancy@vanderstok.org Subject: Re: [Anima-bootstrap] joiner router stateful/stateless considerations X-BeenThere: anima-bootstrap@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for the bootstrap design team of the ANIMA WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2016 21:26:50 -0000 On 20/01/2016 09:40, Michael Richardson wrote: > > Brian E Carpenter wrote: > >> and there is the more complex Internet with ASAs - probably using http with TLS- > > > I assume you mean using https for bootstrap, since ASAs use GRASP over > > the ACP (or possibly GRASP over TLS) for normal operation. > > > Even so I don't understand why https would be the probable choice for bootstrap. > > EST (RFC7030) runs over HTTPS. Yes. Which means that low end devices will end up carrying a load of software they don't really need, IMHO. Sigh. Brian From nobody Tue Jan 19 13:37:07 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DDBC1B3698 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2016 13:37:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EdjW4INfr3rl for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2016 13:37:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C3E251B3696 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 2016 13:37:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.21]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E863200A5; Tue, 19 Jan 2016 16:45:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from obiwan.sandelman.ca (ip6-localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9A32637A0; Tue, 19 Jan 2016 16:37:02 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: Brian E Carpenter In-Reply-To: <569EAA1A.7090402@gmail.com> References: <3993.1453005398@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <792a80be15de2b353298752e7b8d160d@xs4all.nl> <569E8A03.6020809@gmail.com> <3931.1453236007@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <569EAA1A.7090402@gmail.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.6+dev; GNU Emacs 24.4.2 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Cc: anima-bootstrap , consultancy@vanderstok.org Subject: Re: [Anima-bootstrap] joiner router stateful/stateless considerations X-BeenThere: anima-bootstrap@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for the bootstrap design team of the ANIMA WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2016 21:37:05 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> >> and there is the more complex Internet with ASAs - probably using http with TLS- >> >> > I assume you mean using https for bootstrap, since ASAs use GRASP over >> > the ACP (or possibly GRASP over TLS) for normal operation. >> >> > Even so I don't understand why https would be the probable choice for bootstrap. >> >> EST (RFC7030) runs over HTTPS. > Yes. Which means that low end devices will end up carrying a load of software > they don't really need, IMHO. Sigh. which is why I'd like for the MTI to be over CoAP/DTLS. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBVp6se4CLcPvd0N1lAQJ3XAgAwdAc7LDbVGzzafigVGtMxKbIWM6U55wl FHHcZzRIKCy6PdOBv0jIgnN9mIF9rMYBJU5F+WbBYjdSt0vlgyZujpB+SSU5s+aG dFSrF4rhY2jTyihH9qhdbv4NDAzuEwyrqLPb/240IeK/YKHZ4nfa7LKEKhHHaWAe OKDWOFjjcc2kN7pOyHmSE+WZqEbSMraO5l4n3i+rcvWoxmlaZA1tWLRRohfVzv6S KmHYpfg0jDxDimYaP8CdFO8grYbyB/NcVTIS/rccJYddrrKwJSnrFKlipdn+wSN5 DvhLrkj8XbZSi+9mdpQzUEguHpjUsgA0DTpQ72WAD7gi8S0S2c9EWw== =PGCl -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Wed Jan 20 00:15:19 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 842941AC3B8 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 2016 00:15:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.251 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.251 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vBgYkVbNqntb for ; Wed, 20 Jan 2016 00:15:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from lb2-smtp-cloud2.xs4all.net (lb2-smtp-cloud2.xs4all.net [194.109.24.25]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1E6761B37D7 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 2016 00:15:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from webmail.xs4all.nl ([194.109.20.217]) by smtp-cloud2.xs4all.net with ESMTP id 88F61s0054h15BW018F6MU; Wed, 20 Jan 2016 09:15:07 +0100 Received: from AMontpellier-654-1-17-221.w90-0.abo.wanadoo.fr ([90.0.32.221]) by webmail.xs4all.nl with HTTP (HTTP/1.1 POST); Wed, 20 Jan 2016 09:15:06 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 09:15:06 +0100 From: peter van der Stok To: Brian E Carpenter Organization: vanderstok consultancy Mail-Reply-To: consultancy@vanderstok.org In-Reply-To: <569E8A03.6020809@gmail.com> References: <3993.1453005398@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <792a80be15de2b353298752e7b8d160d@xs4all.nl> <569E8A03.6020809@gmail.com> Message-ID: <323adb8600b38127ec7e47000bc4ec7f@xs4all.nl> X-Sender: stokcons@xs4all.nl (M/Eb3h0wkQplKt/iSXAwyPXO9/ZgVD5y) User-Agent: XS4ALL Webmail Archived-At: Cc: Michael Richardson , anima-bootstrap , consultancy@vanderstok.org Subject: Re: [Anima-bootstrap] joiner router stateful/stateless considerations X-BeenThere: anima-bootstrap@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: consultancy@vanderstok.org List-Id: Mailing list for the bootstrap design team of the ANIMA WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 08:15:11 -0000 Brian E Carpenter schreef op 2016-01-19 20:09: > Hi Peter, > > On 20/01/2016 00:13, peter van der Stok wrote: > ... >> There is the “managed network” part with the standardized stack >> without ASAs - possibly using DTLS with CoAP-, > > Then it's not part of Anima. But I don't understand why you make the > assumption "without ASAs". > Or do you just mean "without needing an ASA and GRASP during > bootstrap"? Actually, without the need to install or choose the ASAs, because all required services are already there with only one version per service (routing, discovery,..) > > ... > Brian Peter From nobody Wed Jan 20 00:29:42 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD69B1B3912 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 2016 00:29:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.251 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.251 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tTfK1c8T6OG4 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 2016 00:29:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from lb1-smtp-cloud2.xs4all.net (lb1-smtp-cloud2.xs4all.net [194.109.24.21]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5D47D1A0171 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 2016 00:29:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from webmail.xs4all.nl ([194.109.20.217]) by smtp-cloud2.xs4all.net with ESMTP id 88Vc1s0094h15BW018VcLu; Wed, 20 Jan 2016 09:29:36 +0100 Received: from AMontpellier-654-1-17-221.w90-0.abo.wanadoo.fr ([90.0.32.221]) by webmail.xs4all.nl with HTTP (HTTP/1.1 POST); Wed, 20 Jan 2016 09:29:36 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 09:29:36 +0100 From: peter van der Stok To: Michael Richardson Organization: vanderstok consultancy Mail-Reply-To: consultancy@vanderstok.org In-Reply-To: <5232.1453219441@obiwan.sandelman.ca> References: <3993.1453005398@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <792a80be15de2b353298752e7b8d160d@xs4all.nl> <5232.1453219441@obiwan.sandelman.ca> Message-ID: X-Sender: stokcons@xs4all.nl (M/jgVaxPQ+a8JFFKiqdaLF3pF1VVmVf/) User-Agent: XS4ALL Webmail Archived-At: Cc: anima-bootstrap , consultancy@vanderstok.org Subject: Re: [Anima-bootstrap] joiner router stateful/stateless considerations X-BeenThere: anima-bootstrap@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: consultancy@vanderstok.org List-Id: Mailing list for the bootstrap design team of the ANIMA WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 08:29:41 -0000 > I **SUGGEST** that the anima > bootstrapping services > > both types of networks. That may mean that 2 solutions from the > ones proposed > > in joinrouter document are chosen. > > Which two solutions would you pick? Below are the options for the managed constrained network, right? Thus one of the 2 solutions. > > From the new node to joining router, we have three options: > A) CoAP/DTLS, B) HTTPS, C) HTTPS over HTTP proxy. > > I prefer (A) as MTI, with (C) as MAY. I tend to prefer (A) as I don't understand all consequences of (C) > From the joining router to the registrar, I prefer method 6, CoAP/DTLS > with > IPIP tunnel. I think that this works the best in a constrained > network, > where I do not expect to see an ACP. Sounds reasonable, will try to think of alternatives. > > At the edge of the contrained network, the 6LBR might have an ACP, and > would > further route the join the traffic that way. The IPIP header might be > addressed to the 6LBR, and re-encapsulated by the 6LBR as well, but > that > would involve some state (methods 1 or 2) on the 6LBR: That may be > acceptable. > > I'm trying also to build a system that could also be initiated from the > registrar to new node direction, as I've proposed in 6tisch. I have no preferences on initiaion location for the moment. > > I think that the point is that we don't know (in this document, at this > stage) precisely if the new node and proxy communicate at layer 2 (e.g. > 802.1x) > or layer 3 (PANA, CoAP/HTTP, etc.). That's why it says "or" OK, I got it, a specification "xor" and not an operation "or" peter From nobody Wed Jan 20 10:47:29 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC2401ACD1C for ; Wed, 20 Jan 2016 10:47:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kZs03gzAs6QV for ; Wed, 20 Jan 2016 10:47:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-x233.google.com (mail-pa0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ED19B1ACD21 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 2016 10:47:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pa0-x233.google.com with SMTP id cy9so8839706pac.0 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 2016 10:47:23 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:organization:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=wsEWChy5K/sWYVWNoMIz2eabxsVRnWHrWgN/junHe6Y=; b=M49VC6VIBDPvgbtvdCVZoceUohAqj1GWbK6ozxhkTGr+lvK36UEGh1t+dZUk09J4KD YX+8dmRy1xjh/i+Dc1Dpxs4pgWB42xKDxSgQHnBFUjzkqrFCgls68NZ9cNWizaO/X+4b XNWbtFWeU/lysT5xF7JZMvcLZ14WQtJti3I0vqUv4EzLGlSDLf/Gv7PhWsY65UXuNqH1 nknmyymLhcZ8DY4Z03oSEueLMdXzHixINp0M0aId+KTv3KU9Z3urLzcqb2VlaaVijr4J BZQyjXHkfdCrz09ZhYmuUXELp1UUDBWzvHgZTU8rCAa9kGetsU70uce3xnhIlFyy23PC BxnQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:cc:from:organization :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=wsEWChy5K/sWYVWNoMIz2eabxsVRnWHrWgN/junHe6Y=; b=KohK+M+v0XrSyfU9CbIbnQQ6H3UQt1vjXieu9iwpwE1gTE+v9WBjtJxKeGOIFT1rob +/djAt4Lr/qC9Fvioyk/4M/pnfsb/csNwbeD85RHqnWX6Y9wrpQktLpFuOKjw2V2esLH MrO46JjO7LZLCJ3Eyk9PWYoMmBRJuZS3sMBJBW+nDOi9tG4xSZUvDb1z+z9BQ1zhBw1A /lT4/hutpdWV7Qz53Hu9DaXilyAM1jxMR0vLTNDksZrkFU6xraU4JSU+JlNjMrzKwCTP UEw58gKnjm0NzcXWLE5rMC3GKCsjycCZiwo/VzBBiajBb0nk3hkfJ/4Z4W5sKYwQKZqj GOvg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQl1yq7zgW4iKNwqwI6DTKLL6jkHboMppWzL/gT5wFqm4Yoq0tcJ2/FMjbVblTY1ba+CzIuwcSifM5y3W65793WpLV9oGA== X-Received: by 10.66.235.202 with SMTP id uo10mr54817978pac.63.1453315643612; Wed, 20 Jan 2016 10:47:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e007:6bac:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781? ([2406:e007:6bac:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f16sm50431350pff.18.2016.01.20.10.47.20 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 20 Jan 2016 10:47:22 -0800 (PST) To: consultancy@vanderstok.org References: <3993.1453005398@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <792a80be15de2b353298752e7b8d160d@xs4all.nl> <569E8A03.6020809@gmail.com> <323adb8600b38127ec7e47000bc4ec7f@xs4all.nl> From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: <569FD63E.2030902@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2016 07:47:26 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <323adb8600b38127ec7e47000bc4ec7f@xs4all.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Cc: Michael Richardson , anima-bootstrap Subject: Re: [Anima-bootstrap] joiner router stateful/stateless considerations X-BeenThere: anima-bootstrap@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for the bootstrap design team of the ANIMA WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 18:47:29 -0000 On 20/01/2016 21:15, peter van der Stok wrote: >=20 >=20 > Brian E Carpenter schreef op 2016-01-19 20:09: >> Hi Peter, >> >> On 20/01/2016 00:13, peter van der Stok wrote: >> ... >>> There is the =E2=80=9Cmanaged network=E2=80=9D part with the standard= ized stack without ASAs - possibly using DTLS with CoAP-, >> >> Then it's not part of Anima. But I don't understand why you make the >> assumption "without ASAs". >> Or do you just mean "without needing an ASA and GRASP during bootstrap= "? >=20 > Actually, without the need to install or choose the ASAs, because all r= equired services are already there with only one version > per service (routing, discovery,..) That may be a valid scenario, indeed, but then it really isn't autonomic;= it's just automatic. Brian From nobody Wed Jan 27 17:04:09 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: anima-bootstrap@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA3A51A0026 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 2016 17:04:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.502 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.502 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4KK0rqOl72If for ; Wed, 27 Jan 2016 17:04:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from alln-iport-3.cisco.com (alln-iport-3.cisco.com [173.37.142.90]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 087461A0025 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 2016 17:04:05 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=350; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1453943046; x=1455152646; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:content-id: content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=i2+Pwv30ehwLki76jZeZE7VV8OyPCnadIBWd8Ohix1M=; b=KQtuMEVslT/azpt7Qj5wXkPPAcXe0eWrhU2C5Z++/SvQon6lXHWciMdH xrxYw/6wbzEF5Y2ENvc7XDwRjpYZFN2lNqw6hEZpweQJdxmi9e6NwXmPX bmLUWFd3ba0BVEcfdz9yYkc3RbOj/jjFBGSFh4B16WeLWPOHGibLCMDVs g=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0D3AQCoZ6lW/4wNJK1egzqBRYhRsTgBD?= =?us-ascii?q?YFhhgUogS44FAEBAQEBAQF/C4RIIxFXASICJgIEMBUKCASILp9wj1uPGwEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BBQEBAQEBAQEBGHuGfQiJcyuBDwWWbgGNSoFbhEKIVI48AR4BAUKDaogyfAEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?Q?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.22,356,1449532800"; d="scan'208";a="231551543" Received: from alln-core-7.cisco.com ([173.36.13.140]) by alln-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 28 Jan 2016 01:04:05 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-015.cisco.com (xch-aln-015.cisco.com [173.36.7.25]) by alln-core-7.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u0S145Ct027868 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Thu, 28 Jan 2016 01:04:05 GMT Received: from xch-aln-013.cisco.com (173.36.7.23) by XCH-ALN-015.cisco.com (173.36.7.25) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Wed, 27 Jan 2016 19:04:04 -0600 Received: from xch-aln-013.cisco.com ([173.36.7.23]) by XCH-ALN-013.cisco.com ([173.36.7.23]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Wed, 27 Jan 2016 19:04:04 -0600 From: "Max Pritikin (pritikin)" To: "anima-bootstrap@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: thu bootstrap meeting Thread-Index: AQHRWWfIMS/e2BOF/ECf6IRvGCpyXQ== Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 01:04:04 +0000 Message-ID: <60A428AD-775D-4074-AAD4-1D449E16DC82@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.99.106.8] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: [Anima-bootstrap] thu bootstrap meeting X-BeenThere: anima-bootstrap@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mailing list for the bootstrap design team of the ANIMA WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2016 01:04:07 -0000 DQpNeSBhcG9sb2dpZXMuIEnigJlsbCBiZSBhdCB0aGUgYWlycG9ydCBpbiB0aGUgbW9ybmluZyBh bmQgKnNob3VsZCogYmUgYWJsZSB0byBjYWxsIGluLiBCdXQgaWYgSeKAmW0gb25seSBvbiBmb3Ig YSBzaG9ydCB0aW1lIG9yIG1pc3MgZW50aXJlbHkgZHVlIHRvIGV4dGVuZGVkIHNlY3VyaXR5IHNj cmVlbmluZyBwbGVhc2Uga25vdyB0aGF0IGnigJlkIHJhdGhlciBiZSBjb21mb3J0YWJseSBvbiB0 aGUgcGhvbmUuIA0KDQotIG1heA0KDQoNCg==