From nobody Mon Jul 11 06:16:12 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: arcing@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: arcing@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22F6A12D137 for ; Mon, 11 Jul 2016 06:16:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ypHr1FNdgAEN for ; Mon, 11 Jul 2016 06:16:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x231.google.com (mail-qk0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8647912D123 for ; Mon, 11 Jul 2016 06:16:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk0-x231.google.com with SMTP id s63so56136374qkb.2 for ; Mon, 11 Jul 2016 06:16:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:subject:date:references:to:message-id:mime-version; bh=o3hv7LNX1KPUkI9P55cVf9XiktQ6IrKewS1L6NXD6o8=; b=BqH/g+iD/XE8zcP8Ef3eHPB/f3f4IDtu3AdPkU3xf9PmUEeO6zi5tRvAh3+GwqYviR tVN4x1qQC/NB3gk5Tof7T7+iBqmSFXpRzvR9jGJgkwjpLDJQnAKAXrd+nxi8F9dKy/Rk 13TSfM7jIeAtG1Y/i2WAnEMyCxUjpFAmzebY6ypLScLoppLCsM0EtHamSVV0jYbREUae ws1kbW8Ezvp4n9Q/Mw3nlvGfwsKsMXhYaXQrkX3PgLOYWU//ji4pDs5mTFmI0v5jhoEj I7+FpitkGOaA1lGKAw9HHpb60NuOZzbebNwi2AmEnoaQpLVYn2OOFq9HcrjIRtTyfE3t yk6g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:subject:date:references:to:message-id :mime-version; bh=o3hv7LNX1KPUkI9P55cVf9XiktQ6IrKewS1L6NXD6o8=; b=TpzJYaCdTOsj73IAKp/MvUXD54GJc1VTGtCBRUBjeV/Lych5qUW620Ax9XXgIR5goK St/rXy5hb0DQDSjaYLf+QlxxzeaHGtZ1R0gEmWvY59Fe8PLYezFIXCi56WvPap5i2ou3 q6fRQ3fDq0ojjs+Qp9/6yq3ixuGERpqdsYjgkKux95moOIiK2J2XayV53QNW2cmw4swh 0/WBlLS+V1Bq7s8vxbLwtFHjZubpSoP5n2+rS0WuCa7Z1lOJe28vOk4hQKO0dglTHjUO jbVZT2QwAl6N9kMtBG+n7MJ51J9eMrbLdqvtqUNLZpSpq+KqM2BX3bJ7pc39UkpI5CJg 5OKQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tKIHXAbYt27L+TTXIHk12TO24VwbCYDYIBwm1xaG2ZjKs1SFLJy2RZpT7psArWtMQ== X-Received: by 10.55.22.30 with SMTP id g30mr23894002qkh.29.1468242967403; Mon, 11 Jul 2016 06:16:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:181:c003:1360:7193:b48b:162b:a448? ([2601:181:c003:1360:7193:b48b:162b:a448]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id m11sm2539904qke.36.2016.07.11.06.16.06 for (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 11 Jul 2016 06:16:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Suzanne Woolf Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_751675F0-3130-4370-82F0-7416A818B1C7" Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2016 09:18:30 -0400 References: <20160708233723.32067.40461.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> To: arcing@ietf.org Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.6 \(1510\)) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1510) Archived-At: Subject: [Arcing] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-stw-whatsinaname-00.txt X-BeenThere: arcing@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: This list will discuss different architectural approaches to signalling alternative resolution contexts for Internet names List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2016 13:16:10 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_751675F0-3130-4370-82F0-7416A818B1C7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, See below on a new draft that attempts to help make some sense of some = general challenges around naming in internet protocols. It attempts to = discuss some of the questions that arise around attempting to re-use DNS = protocol and domain names in contexts separate from the global public = DNS database and protocol. There seemed to be strong feeling in the ARCING BOF in BA that we needed = a document that could serve as advice to protocol designers and software = implementers, although it's not entirely clear where such a document = should live. It's *not* intended for adoption by DNSOP; although it may = ultimately include advice to DNS operators, that's not the primary = purpose. Questions:=20 1. Is something like this document useful? 2. What should it cover? 3. What status should we be aiming for: Informational? BCP? thanks, Suzanne Begin forwarded message: > From: internet-drafts@ietf.org > Subject: New Version Notification for draft-stw-whatsinaname-00.txt > Date: July 8, 2016 7:37:23 PM EDT > To: "Suzanne Woolf" >=20 >=20 > A new version of I-D, draft-stw-whatsinaname-00.txt > has been successfully submitted by Suzanne Woolf and posted to the > IETF repository. >=20 > Name: draft-stw-whatsinaname > Revision: 00 > Title: Some Considerations on the Choice of Naming in = IETF Protocols > Document date: 2016-07-08 > Group: Individual Submission > Pages: 11 > URL: = https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-stw-whatsinaname-00.txt > Status: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-stw-whatsinaname/ > Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-stw-whatsinaname-00 >=20 >=20 > Abstract: > =46rom time to time, networking protocols need to be able to name > things used within the protocol, and resolve the names created or > referenced. It's common for protocol designers in this predicament > to attempt to use domain names as the starting point for their > systems of names, and the DNS as the starting point for name > resolution. >=20 > This is completely understandable-- domain names, and DNS = resolution, > are well-established in both the expectations of network users and > developers, and well-supported by fielded software. It also has > significant limitations. >=20 > This document deals principally with the questions a protocol > designer or software developer should ask themselves about what > behavior they want from the names they use in the context of a new > protocol or scope for names. Depending to the answers to these > questions, the answer may be that domain names will not meet the > constraints at hand. Future versions of this draft will provide = some > comments on alternatives. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of = submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >=20 > The IETF Secretariat >=20 --Apple-Mail=_751675F0-3130-4370-82F0-7416A818B1C7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Subject: New Version Notification for = draft-stw-whatsinaname-00.txt
Date: July 8, 2016 = 7:37:23 PM EDT
To: "Suzanne Woolf" <suzworldwide@gmail.com>
<= /span>


A new version of I-D, = draft-stw-whatsinaname-00.txt
has been successfully submitted by = Suzanne Woolf and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name: = draft-stw-whatsinaname
Revision: 00
Title: Some = Considerations on the Choice of Naming in IETF Protocols
Document = date: = 2016-07-08
Group: Individual = Submission
Pages: 11
URL: =            https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-stw-whatsinaname-00.txtStatus:         https://= datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-stw-whatsinaname/
Htmlized: =       https://too= ls.ietf.org/html/draft-stw-whatsinaname-00


Abstract:
=   =46rom time to time, networking protocols need to be able to = name
  things used within the protocol, and resolve the = names created or
  referenced.  It's common for = protocol designers in this predicament
  to attempt to use = domain names as the starting point for their
  systems of = names, and the DNS as the starting point for name
=   resolution.

  This is completely = understandable-- domain names, and DNS resolution,
  are = well-established in both the expectations of network users and
=   developers, and well-supported by fielded software.  It = also has
  significant limitations.

=   This document deals principally with the questions a = protocol
  designer or software developer should ask = themselves about what
  behavior they want from the names = they use in the context of a new
  protocol or scope for = names.  Depending to the answers to these
=   questions, the answer may be that domain names will not meet = the
  constraints at hand.  Future versions of this = draft will provide some
  comments on = alternatives.




Please note that it may take a couple = of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and = diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF = Secretariat


= --Apple-Mail=_751675F0-3130-4370-82F0-7416A818B1C7-- From nobody Tue Jul 12 13:31:23 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: arcing@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: arcing@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8F9612D645 for ; Tue, 12 Jul 2016 13:31:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1s016QYrTSrQ for ; Tue, 12 Jul 2016 13:31:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from miucha.iecc.com (abusenet-1-pt.tunnel.tserv4.nyc4.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f06:1126::2]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A62E812D630 for ; Tue, 12 Jul 2016 13:31:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 65001 invoked from network); 12 Jul 2016 20:31:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (64.57.183.18) by mail1.iecc.com with QMQP; 12 Jul 2016 20:31:19 -0000 Date: 12 Jul 2016 20:30:57 -0000 Message-ID: <20160712203057.33162.qmail@ary.lan> From: "John Levine" To: arcing@ietf.org In-Reply-To: Organization: X-Headerized: yes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Cc: suzworldwide@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Arcing] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-stw-whatsinaname-00.txt X-BeenThere: arcing@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: This list will discuss different architectural approaches to signalling alternative resolution contexts for Internet names List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2016 20:31:22 -0000 >There seemed to be strong feeling in the ARCING BOF in BA that we needed a document that could serve as advice to >protocol designers and software implementers, although it's not entirely clear where such a document should live. It's >*not* intended for adoption by DNSOP; although it may ultimately include advice to DNS operators, that's not the >primary purpose. I read it, and it's all reasonable and informative, but I fear it'll just be preaching to the converted. The unconverted will continue to say "yeah, ok, I know all that but I still need to reserve .BANANA" We have a severe perverse incentive. On the one hand, we tell people that squatting on domain names is bad for all sorts of reasons, and we're not going to let people reserve desirable names for non-DNS use for other reasons. Then anyone who's paying attention can see that what you actually do is pick the name you want and squat on it with extreme vigor, until we say, oh, all right, just this once. Or maybe we don't, but unless there's some external situation like the one for .onion certificates, they hand out software that uses the name they want anyway and if the names leak, too bad. Until and unless we can de-perversify the situtation, I don't see much point in offering more advice. R's, John From nobody Tue Jul 12 14:11:30 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: arcing@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: arcing@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5DE812D8D6 for ; Tue, 12 Jul 2016 14:11:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2nw4iTNHQM_u for ; Tue, 12 Jul 2016 14:11:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x233.google.com (mail-qk0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1E7D912D8BA for ; Tue, 12 Jul 2016 14:11:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk0-x233.google.com with SMTP id 82so26323907qko.3 for ; Tue, 12 Jul 2016 14:11:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=gOpfH5riLEDseNf6i4Ph7e+FjWRrUqADBNVU64Mp7ik=; b=Vj+s2a0KWWjcUWPrved7zQswPLwwquKGClC9JuQC294/ty7+TSWinxqo0NoogeCTGi zTid64PbshQI9hIlc6s3Fq0yi/gNgypP6oGsEK4uGJluwezhMzVQdD2hC6NSvLm1/3RV 1jUjkVJqs/JtOU6Tht7tUCP9oF3a4XYEZXYJPd0WWvbjwD8w5ke4KahtSaR8HeWaEwl9 Y8oZMd6s/2iRFJA7LS7ky7HcepoU12Ba37pW4+HZ/f2HGbgihxaKz0vwudOoj8/eLI87 PrHTidX3q+ktMutDzcIozjmCmusVxLUHcN6A2vT3Dq10xt1kAtg/PW3tw3mEZM1oOngj obvw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=gOpfH5riLEDseNf6i4Ph7e+FjWRrUqADBNVU64Mp7ik=; b=LOCWJWSDVEBTTmoYw8quVxAl78qc9yUxqIPObK76Bw56k9uGGs6xVNcMD3D5AQRW1k MnkWGdkFxRnY+hM8fNjZXE5mtRj0tOblrrUajtIdQe6GDA/P+3w7rU5AVQ955+NvTm2W bSGU/sIrdmniPjKdxHNMmdznFaCpJYXKRauVoMoDf+k2qHDAEIhiOtK3lux4wrbeNHD1 ZKDDxQt+H9BbkYjx/CY27S96ja7VVhTLpQC9jGdFnwo4iak74rP1tUxmVkzxfBC3O0me YdIFtYIVC5BZ8G9zpvNYRcPYqNuJ3nHXsJo9s+EG1TFTLK3NRJ+CUgyru9Tk53mwarma ZLwQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tJe0jwtWf16wbJPEmR0IDz1gCSPaKzE9wYDz/6lk64yoUDb7O3F5EPkEDtaatwRYA== X-Received: by 10.55.74.138 with SMTP id x132mr5853751qka.26.1468357887091; Tue, 12 Jul 2016 14:11:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:181:c003:1360:74c9:33db:4821:4f02? ([2601:181:c003:1360:74c9:33db:4821:4f02]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a67sm1506497qkc.24.2016.07.12.14.11.26 (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 12 Jul 2016 14:11:26 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.6 \(1510\)) From: Suzanne Woolf In-Reply-To: <20160712203057.33162.qmail@ary.lan> Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2016 17:13:52 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <68618C98-DCC2-41B6-869D-F470589B1C1C@gmail.com> References: <20160712203057.33162.qmail@ary.lan> To: John Levine X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1510) Archived-At: Cc: arcing@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Arcing] New Version Notification for draft-stw-whatsinaname-00.txt X-BeenThere: arcing@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: This list will discuss different architectural approaches to signalling alternative resolution contexts for Internet names List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2016 21:11:30 -0000 On Jul 12, 2016, at 4:30 PM, John Levine wrote: >> There seemed to be strong feeling in the ARCING BOF in BA that we = needed a document that could serve as advice to >> protocol designers and software implementers, although it's not = entirely clear where such a document should live. It's >> *not* intended for adoption by DNSOP; although it may ultimately = include advice to DNS operators, that's not the >> primary purpose. >=20 > I read it, and it's all reasonable and informative, but I fear it'll > just be preaching to the converted. The unconverted will continue to > say "yeah, ok, I know all that but I still need to reserve .BANANA" >=20 > We have a severe perverse incentive. On the one hand, we tell people > that squatting on domain names is bad for all sorts of reasons, and > we're not going to let people reserve desirable names for non-DNS use > for other reasons. Then anyone who's paying attention can see that > what you actually do is pick the name you want and squat on it with > extreme vigor, until we say, oh, all right, just this once. Or maybe > we don't, but unless there's some external situation like the one for > .onion certificates, they hand out software that uses the name they > want anyway and if the names leak, too bad. >=20 > Until and unless we can de-perversify the situtation, I don't see much > point in offering more advice. I understand this argument, but have a couple of reservations about it = as a reason to just throw up our hands: First, some people actually would probably prefer to avoid name = collisions, ambiguous resolution semantics, etc. in their standards and = specifications-- the resulting software is easier to write, debug, = operate, and troubleshoot. A little clear thinking about what protocols = you're using and what you're assuming about names can go a long way. Probably more importantly, I don't think "there's nothing we can do" is = a good answer for protocol developers within the IETF.=20 See, for example, the current effort in homenet to define a naming = architecture: there's already an RFC 7788bis I-D to correct the bad edit = that set "home" as a default without any corresponding process for the = special use names registry, but there's still a belief that they need to = set a default-- and still some ambiguity about the behavior of the = naming protocol they're using. "Do whatever you want, and we can't help = you decide what to want" doesn't strike me as a good policy for the IETF = to have for its working groups on this subject. Suzanne From nobody Tue Jul 12 14:47:45 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: arcing@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: arcing@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F03912D9B8 for ; Tue, 12 Jul 2016 14:47:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=Q4Qg04JC; dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=aMsq031R Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id G0b_pMCK-GUl for ; Tue, 12 Jul 2016 14:47:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from miucha.iecc.com (abusenet-1-pt.tunnel.tserv4.nyc4.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f06:1126::2]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CBEB412D9A9 for ; Tue, 12 Jul 2016 14:47:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 77260 invoked from network); 12 Jul 2016 21:47:40 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:user-agent; s=12dcb.5785657c.k1607; bh=bhuGxoEFbmLK4zD1xAOAOYyyy3/yCQ2F3gNAO+zTcoY=; b=Q4Qg04JCQLrU5gYkz6+VqbHq/UkCPFDNRh0t6nbR9ozDlVRw+Mqstoc2P7uLbuuNINVD6F9/zhAN21c1oKEIpalW9WKdTbqogwqNJggc5gkOwFvPQ2oAdd3B7U8C9yx91UgfZcTlID8OOm97FTWE6NWPr73FvUx6Y0SXD0azp8YhSqeSeMzVkBQ2PwCoO9snNH3PWdb6ObRdKb82h8FvYp4Ngqg3V+yqs3txZF8GMdCRrpC1m96RtOOM675AYjrq DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:user-agent; s=12dcb.5785657c.k1607; bh=bhuGxoEFbmLK4zD1xAOAOYyyy3/yCQ2F3gNAO+zTcoY=; b=aMsq031RoxCAJqaNXxQ9wFESs7NoSmoFR7jRJ8UZ3SEXMUrihIGn2WCcoOuHtfstSSd1zkfuEiG8dxXsBaoatAnwK/HnMgYM3i7IS9dpqnCFgIdQdcmT8lLUp1Ba8f8QEEmMliO1mkMn7OBVRiPxeXkXQhNYmj/jaUjYs52BmS2hXV+4QlQyB3FSdXwyZ8jKkMCVGk+JH58LIpgcPjK0n2APDE7pkPHjwH0fdor2T454wVyc3DU8JbPLUIY60W+2 Received: from localhost ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPS (TLS1.0/X.509/SHA1) via TCP6; 12 Jul 2016 21:47:40 -0000 Date: 12 Jul 2016 17:47:40 -0400 Message-ID: From: "John R Levine" To: "Suzanne Woolf" In-Reply-To: <68618C98-DCC2-41B6-869D-F470589B1C1C@gmail.com> References: <20160712203057.33162.qmail@ary.lan> <68618C98-DCC2-41B6-869D-F470589B1C1C@gmail.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.11 (OSX 23 2013-08-11) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Archived-At: Cc: arcing@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Arcing] New Version Notification for draft-stw-whatsinaname-00.txt X-BeenThere: arcing@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: This list will discuss different architectural approaches to signalling alternative resolution contexts for Internet names List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2016 21:47:43 -0000 > Probably more importantly, I don't think "there's nothing we can do" is > a good answer for protocol developers within the IETF. Oh, I agree, but if we're just giving advice, wouldn't that be about two sentences? If you want to use a domain name, register one and use that as the root of your tree, or else use something in *.alt. R's, John From nobody Tue Jul 12 15:32:34 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: arcing@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: arcing@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5891212DA63 for ; Tue, 12 Jul 2016 15:32:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CTYpFOpWE13u for ; Tue, 12 Jul 2016 15:32:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x234.google.com (mail-qk0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CD5BC12DA6F for ; Tue, 12 Jul 2016 15:32:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk0-x234.google.com with SMTP id o67so28003111qke.1 for ; Tue, 12 Jul 2016 15:32:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=p/S9ODB0kLgk2c3IqNC/kqwlAnYJDdq+AhViwuqOAC0=; b=aPripm/Dtu5baHthz7vLORJ9MqV7zTJkikc7W9SqfWdTsnYDjgFko0Na90Y5Gu5oF3 XAA+ZjOtXfu5n0eH272ruzv3tJjINRuRJnH6gYX+0x95lf6tz5yD+O1oR54OAYhTqwJr +0QrMADoEK9xRVhXzC8PCHZINLschGhf664CDcAxll9Bv4lKjjCP9CwIq208hrExeD5z i9nCk9weQDsJHpCWYeQ3ai20rx+im+66JUGUUHIr30aUlX9QQQQepeh7lbMOnsgynqDH ZT3njDFBr9nsKWWaSvpXchSx9c/7Xu8WwgsLDJuRTBreMn55UiXdQQqkeWDP2TVJiNxH PvZQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=p/S9ODB0kLgk2c3IqNC/kqwlAnYJDdq+AhViwuqOAC0=; b=QN0vnl0bNb/EQ0h6E8aFqaIBKlGBJqplUnSmzSfyGSbGhl0lpm2hekuPFnmdx77b/a uVvj6MdhyBmN2xPwyy+eWREudiId2WaYMCEkz17RLNtOsHPms2cuLz/AzEihtYhNnAFM /+H0TocH4oHlk1WQ9F4/+ZPuGxXNqC0OluuTWlFaLpZefZJZrKowxQyT1s6QYuQOzBUR sMWfDlDCUf8s3JLRjhkuzEgP8Cz0wiXbDtvnHY0+hsdJpFS6d/hWxg/TE04t21Yl2++k KcX2qkfFSChuivTMJLVMf1/dynSYQnaPM2NLUqmnETzbQJNCJOMSJeNPuiBadGM4oAVZ lmDA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tJarO23B4Zd3VsHrKFq1+wgDhpHihwZk5XXrClXU/eWjkd5Hl3pP1tFCVIE0Hvkog== X-Received: by 10.55.20.29 with SMTP id e29mr5983257qkh.30.1468362749900; Tue, 12 Jul 2016 15:32:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:181:c003:1360:74c9:33db:4821:4f02? ([2601:181:c003:1360:74c9:33db:4821:4f02]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d190sm1667279qke.18.2016.07.12.15.32.26 (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 12 Jul 2016 15:32:28 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.6 \(1510\)) From: Suzanne Woolf In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2016 18:34:53 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <19C4F7E7-606D-4CCD-B598-510A0033AEFF@gmail.com> References: <20160712203057.33162.qmail@ary.lan> <68618C98-DCC2-41B6-869D-F470589B1C1C@gmail.com> To: "John R Levine" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1510) Archived-At: Cc: arcing@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Arcing] New Version Notification for draft-stw-whatsinaname-00.txt X-BeenThere: arcing@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: This list will discuss different architectural approaches to signalling alternative resolution contexts for Internet names List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2016 22:32:32 -0000 On Jul 12, 2016, at 5:47 PM, "John R Levine" wrote: >> Probably more importantly, I don't think "there's nothing we can do" = is a good answer for protocol developers within the IETF. >=20 > Oh, I agree, but if we're just giving advice, wouldn't that be about = two sentences? If you want to use a domain name, register one and use = that as the root of your tree, or else use something in *.alt. That draft would provide no guidance at all on deciding whether you want = to use a domain name, use something from the subset of domain names that = are DNS names, or do something else.=20 It would also provide no guidance at all on the characteristics of an = acceptable string. Just to take an easy example, why on earth would you = want to risk collision by choosing a human-friendly string as a single = label DNS name when your protocol is strictly a locally-scoped = machine-to-machine variant of DNS, and no human will see the names it = uses in the course of normal operation? "I want to reserve my cat's name = as a single label" is a nice-to-have in that case, not a need-to-have, = and probably a thing to avoid, particularly if it comes with the = documented certainty of collision with a name already in the = global-scope DNS. (Or not-- people use split-horizon configuration in = their DNS all the time, committing to different answers for "the same = name" depending on the implicit scope of the query. But it works a lot = better if they do it on purpose.) "If you want to use a domain name" is an enormous "If", and an answer = comes at the tail end of a process that's currently driven primarily by = whim and mythology. Maybe we can do better. Suzanne From nobody Tue Jul 12 15:33:46 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: arcing@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: arcing@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7B2D12DA6F for ; Tue, 12 Jul 2016 15:33:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.602 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.602 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hEVDRtdMbhHS for ; Tue, 12 Jul 2016 15:33:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mxout-07.mxes.net (mxout-07.mxes.net [216.86.168.182]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7BADE12DA90 for ; Tue, 12 Jul 2016 15:33:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.109] (unknown [124.189.98.244]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.mxes.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 61C2B22E253; Tue, 12 Jul 2016 18:33:35 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: <20160712203057.33162.qmail@ary.lan> Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2016 08:33:31 +1000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <842948F5-A3D8-4CFF-9603-FF0C59B467D0@mnot.net> References: <20160712203057.33162.qmail@ary.lan> To: John Levine X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) Archived-At: Cc: suzworldwide@gmail.com, arcing@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Arcing] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-stw-whatsinaname-00.txt X-BeenThere: arcing@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: This list will discuss different architectural approaches to signalling alternative resolution contexts for Internet names List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2016 22:33:45 -0000 > On 13 Jul 2016, at 6:30 AM, John Levine wrote: >=20 >> There seemed to be strong feeling in the ARCING BOF in BA that we = needed a document that could serve as advice to >> protocol designers and software implementers, although it's not = entirely clear where such a document should live. It's >> *not* intended for adoption by DNSOP; although it may ultimately = include advice to DNS operators, that's not the >> primary purpose. >=20 > I read it, and it's all reasonable and informative, but I fear it'll > just be preaching to the converted. The unconverted will continue to > say "yeah, ok, I know all that but I still need to reserve .BANANA" >=20 > We have a severe perverse incentive. On the one hand, we tell people > that squatting on domain names is bad for all sorts of reasons, and > we're not going to let people reserve desirable names for non-DNS use > for other reasons. Then anyone who's paying attention can see that > what you actually do is pick the name you want and squat on it with > extreme vigor, until we say, oh, all right, just this once. Or maybe > we don't, but unless there's some external situation like the one for > .onion certificates, they hand out software that uses the name they > want anyway and if the names leak, too bad. >=20 > Until and unless we can de-perversify the situtation, I don't see much > point in offering more advice. I tend to agree. Inside the IETF, we have a documented procedure on how = to add new names for standard purposes -- although we seem to have a = healthy chunk of confusion about its use. For people doing work outside the IETF, I somehow doubt they'll ever = find RFC6761 before they ship a protocol, much less any additional = documents published to help interpret it. Those external people will have to accept that they're working "outside = the system" and may not ever have their TLD blessed by registration = (thereby risking collision and other problems). OTOH, if an external use = sees broad enough adoption, we'll probably be in the position of = considering it as a special-use domain name, just as happened with = .onion. As such, IMHO it seems like there are only a few useful things we can = do: 1) Clarify within the IETF community what criteria we use for minting = special-use domains in this situation (and I'd suggest that broad = deployment is a key metric). 2) State, as simply as possible, that people minting their own TLDs run = a variety of risks, and may never be recognised by registration (.onion = notwithstanding). Basically, we want a short statement to point people = at when they ask; an IESG statement would serve.=20 Cheers, -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Tue Jul 12 16:19:46 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: arcing@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: arcing@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11A0B12B030 for ; Tue, 12 Jul 2016 16:19:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=dSb/GLQv; dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=oJpoUKsR Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e8-Lksl19JmW for ; Tue, 12 Jul 2016 16:19:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from miucha.iecc.com (abusenet-1-pt.tunnel.tserv4.nyc4.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f06:1126::2]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 519C312DADA for ; Tue, 12 Jul 2016 16:14:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 94445 invoked from network); 12 Jul 2016 23:14:34 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:user-agent; s=170ec.578579da.k1607; bh=q6eKQa5OPLxTOvb8v8HqAZjSae0+oPPqWDf9oi3AD/g=; b=dSb/GLQvsuF/isrft0PeNSf5Ikfkk39blO2ECRqve7t9UKrpsIVxN0oXTuvSuizEWOzHdmKqRGS2H7g38mCpViPCKW5trRifhaBKC55kZdgwsOF8z1Dqu9ETwSixXR3YqZgbxbsEW1cl56uqxRJBUGgpXrXFuFxrp8PTEftcTyxI2bYjNZiyYnuMBrVCROA9ljm9wwc0ESe9lzPGMTFqgnGviVdiXGBpmqGmQU5c0gW6Zr+uTW121eB6ssuHqUq9 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:user-agent; s=170ec.578579da.k1607; bh=q6eKQa5OPLxTOvb8v8HqAZjSae0+oPPqWDf9oi3AD/g=; b=oJpoUKsRxlXZ/9CroMIDNK9vcrX/K+874eb7SD4hOWuYChW4WPKVwHOd6yx+JUWCrTXPFZ0j+HefI5bBAmmKpMpyNLkpwYI87nAQzdxC14wPEA8pzPoBy/ZwGRZ/yC7Z7ZczDIjeEEqgePbDn/AoNmyKOWaWDAlUJa4Iyr8CvrtrSHhGQdyAXxsnb91b9FFLdwuMLJWIhA4LmzH80+KjAClIEyVP1GeeAPIidtBORAH2gwkaSxozRTMPU8ngST84 Received: from localhost ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPS (TLS1.0/X.509/SHA1) via TCP6; 12 Jul 2016 23:14:34 -0000 Date: 12 Jul 2016 19:14:34 -0400 Message-ID: From: "John R Levine" To: "Suzanne Woolf" In-Reply-To: <19C4F7E7-606D-4CCD-B598-510A0033AEFF@gmail.com> References: <20160712203057.33162.qmail@ary.lan> <68618C98-DCC2-41B6-869D-F470589B1C1C@gmail.com> <19C4F7E7-606D-4CCD-B598-510A0033AEFF@gmail.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.11 (OSX 23 2013-08-11) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Archived-At: Cc: arcing@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Arcing] New Version Notification for draft-stw-whatsinaname-00.txt X-BeenThere: arcing@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: This list will discuss different architectural approaches to signalling alternative resolution contexts for Internet names List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2016 23:19:45 -0000 > That draft would provide no guidance at all on deciding whether you want > to use a domain name, use something from the subset of domain names that > are DNS names, or do something else. ... Hm, I take your point. > It would also provide no guidance at all on the characteristics of an acceptable string. Some people I know were looking for names to use within a VPN and I suggested that the ISO 3166 list permanently reserves .xa through .xz which are unlikely ever to be TLDs, so they picked something like blah.xz. I wonder if that was good advice. R's, John From nobody Wed Jul 13 05:21:14 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: arcing@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: arcing@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0F8812DEE2 for ; Wed, 13 Jul 2016 05:21:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7S2cBusa1cVh for ; Wed, 13 Jul 2016 05:21:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x232.google.com (mail-qk0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C33D712DF0C for ; Wed, 13 Jul 2016 05:21:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk0-x232.google.com with SMTP id o67so41449003qke.1 for ; Wed, 13 Jul 2016 05:21:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=sXqbi4fzj6WJQPj84aHmy877rJiLcnBY79QN5/2f/5c=; b=AVi1SKA5gjQcFS61hniE2Oo+rgpwdCKKoZZYQiJLAjnULD5ZSvFFNLdFT9ZgdHU2jU cR51NNotdfaJQu5bZ+0ijmW+kdgKKVvj+FBPL2Ol7lMNv5fKxgvMxBk+IF2NCF/EERF6 oUEbqdWoH1x1dRzpbclpZumAMQ2RozB1gpoJeoNXVNxdxpXLGK0JfG8V4H2UGyq2Hi37 5/qXLeSjAWxAvVt54IF1YNNYobTRbKwbS2Wcn90irbCf3i0uArh5IbcjQTLX+yV2jT4d lVfMXE31fOTbIcGC40g57hTKkDJbsUp38x9OB+EkNFORRQ8h0eSHfSSfTbvNNoaW7jEj mSlQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=sXqbi4fzj6WJQPj84aHmy877rJiLcnBY79QN5/2f/5c=; b=fGU8+zrARh6CgHeII6VzzisbGKi7lV0OHWfrW6u24930krbLxaUjmGwTx1goSAINQf 5dLH2nFVX8sN5y3S5SwykPf/rd1hbqreTBqucPTEPw82gMdccRLgASoiAHFdKHmuJw/P oB4aOvIgU4RVcyWZFPjJ21wASTOt67ck8cO5jYyM3W2w6jUSKz0O0Wrx3mVL9WcFmkau t5EM3SdsbSMN+hwXJ1r2mlmtTpVE6k1XPDXZ0nOK308nWGPq1Xrq82odtyBaUYZ4smO3 zEJQP2lFLUGAoT0nrEoW8OZadKnxoqGtIl7ZzTCY+Nk9stH6Fegf/FLgNl092E5NzpvK fgAA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tIYQ9Awv61x0o8CZHFOh1ii5ybR/Jn7qXUSOEUwi/4zRTndWMsUsQEhbmoNwrTEbg== X-Received: by 10.55.192.143 with SMTP id v15mr9551592qkv.23.1468412470912; Wed, 13 Jul 2016 05:21:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.0.16] (c-24-63-89-87.hsd1.ma.comcast.net. [24.63.89.87]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j62sm732927qtb.35.2016.07.13.05.21.08 (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 13 Jul 2016 05:21:09 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.6 \(1510\)) From: Suzanne Woolf In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2016 08:23:37 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20160712203057.33162.qmail@ary.lan> <68618C98-DCC2-41B6-869D-F470589B1C1C@gmail.com> <19C4F7E7-606D-4CCD-B598-510A0033AEFF@gmail.com> To: John R Levine X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1510) Archived-At: Cc: arcing@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Arcing] New Version Notification for draft-stw-whatsinaname-00.txt X-BeenThere: arcing@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: This list will discuss different architectural approaches to signalling alternative resolution contexts for Internet names List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2016 12:21:13 -0000 On Jul 12, 2016, at 7:14 PM, John R Levine wrote: >> That draft would provide no guidance at all on deciding whether you = want to use a domain name, use something from the subset of domain names = that are DNS names, or do something else. ... >=20 > Hm, I take your point. >=20 >> It would also provide no guidance at all on the characteristics of an = acceptable string. >=20 > Some people I know were looking for names to use within a VPN and I = suggested that the ISO 3166 list permanently reserves .xa through .xz = which are unlikely ever to be TLDs, so they picked something like = blah.xz. I wonder if that was good advice. I don't know.=20 Would asking the questions in Sec. 4 of the whatsinaname draft have = helped them/you be sure? Do other questions come to mind? Suzanne From nobody Wed Jul 13 06:06:42 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: arcing@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: arcing@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 590CD12D7BF for ; Wed, 13 Jul 2016 06:06:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.488 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.488 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.287, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FKwdaHP3baDY for ; Wed, 13 Jul 2016 06:06:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out.west.pexch112.icann.org (pfe112-ca-2.pexch112.icann.org [64.78.40.10]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 336A912DD8D for ; Wed, 13 Jul 2016 06:06:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from PMBX112-W1-CA-1.pexch112.icann.org (64.78.40.21) by PMBX112-W1-CA-1.pexch112.icann.org (64.78.40.21) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1178.4; Wed, 13 Jul 2016 06:06:36 -0700 Received: from PMBX112-W1-CA-1.pexch112.icann.org ([64.78.40.21]) by PMBX112-W1-CA-1.PEXCH112.ICANN.ORG ([64.78.40.21]) with mapi id 15.00.1178.000; Wed, 13 Jul 2016 06:06:36 -0700 From: Edward Lewis To: John R Levine , "suzworldwide@gmail.com" Thread-Topic: [Arcing] New Version Notification for draft-stw-whatsinaname-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHR3IIFBpx7/5574UeducyQbCUqN6AVyloAgAANMYCAAAsXAIAApWiA Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2016 13:06:35 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20160712203057.33162.qmail@ary.lan> <68618C98-DCC2-41B6-869D-F470589B1C1C@gmail.com> <19C4F7E7-606D-4CCD-B598-510A0033AEFF@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.18.0.160709 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [192.0.47.234] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <94EB42F1D5D07C4E9326B5580B125E06@pexch112.icann.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "arcing@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Arcing] New Version Notification for draft-stw-whatsinaname-00.txt X-BeenThere: arcing@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: This list will discuss different architectural approaches to signalling alternative resolution contexts for Internet names List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2016 13:06:42 -0000 T24gNy8xMi8xNiwgMTk6MTQsICJBcmNpbmcgb24gYmVoYWxmIG9mIEpvaG4gUiBMZXZpbmUiIDxh cmNpbmctYm91bmNlc0BpZXRmLm9yZyBvbiBiZWhhbGYgb2Ygam9obmxAdGF1Z2guY29tPiB3cm90 ZToNCg0KPiAuLi5hbmQgSSBzdWdnZXN0ZWQgdGhhdCB0aGUgSVNPIDMxNjYgbGlzdCBwZXJtYW5l bnRseSANCj4gcmVzZXJ2ZXMgLnhhIHRocm91Z2ggLi4uDQo+DQo+IEkgd29uZGVyIGlmIHRoYXQg d2FzIGdvb2QgYWR2aWNlLg0KDQpBYm91dCBhIHllYXIgYWdvIEkgc3VibWl0dGVkIHRoaXMgZHJh ZnQ6DQoNCmh0dHBzOi8vdG9vbHMuaWV0Zi5vcmcvaWQvZHJhZnQtbGV3aXMtdXNlci1hc3NpZ25l ZC10bGRzLTAwLnR4dA0KDQpJdCBnb3Qgbm8gcHVibGljIHJlc3BvbnNlIGFuZCBJIGRpZG4ndCBw dXNoIGl0IGZ1cnRoZXIuICBJIGhhdmUgbm8gcmVhbCBwbGFucyB0bywgSSBqdXN0IHJlY2FsbGVk IHRoZSBkcmFmdCByZWFkaW5nIHRoZSBlbWFpbCBjaXRlZCBhYm92ZS4NCg0KKEFzIGZhciBhcyBT cGVjaWFsIFVzZSBEb21haW4gTmFtZXMsIEkgZG9uJ3Qga25vdyBpZiB0aGVzZSB0d28tbGV0dGVy IHN0cmluZ3MgYXMgd2VsbCBhcyB0aGUgbnVtYmVycyAwIHRocm91Z2ggMjU1IFthcyB0b3AtbGV2 ZWwgbmFtZXNdIG91Z2h0IHRvIGJlIGFkZGVkLiAgVGhhdCdzIGEgd2hvbGUnbnV0aGVyIHRvcGlj L3dpbGQgaWRlYSB0aGF0IGNvbWVzIHRvIG1pbmQgbm93IGFuZCB0aGVuLikNCg0KDQo= From nobody Wed Jul 13 06:25:55 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: arcing@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: arcing@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F39312D142 for ; Wed, 13 Jul 2016 06:25:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.488 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.488 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.287, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id obmoPCHG9Fe0 for ; Wed, 13 Jul 2016 06:25:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out.west.pexch112.icann.org (pfe112-ca-2.pexch112.icann.org [64.78.40.10]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1491312B056 for ; Wed, 13 Jul 2016 06:25:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from PMBX112-W1-CA-1.pexch112.icann.org (64.78.40.21) by PMBX112-W1-CA-1.pexch112.icann.org (64.78.40.21) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1178.4; Wed, 13 Jul 2016 06:25:48 -0700 Received: from PMBX112-W1-CA-1.pexch112.icann.org ([64.78.40.21]) by PMBX112-W1-CA-1.PEXCH112.ICANN.ORG ([64.78.40.21]) with mapi id 15.00.1178.000; Wed, 13 Jul 2016 06:25:48 -0700 From: Edward Lewis To: "arcing@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: lacking a reference for domain names... was Re: [Arcing] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-stw-whatsinaname-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHR3QoRIEfBe1qjcEKvYzs82p0sIg== Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2016 13:25:47 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.18.0.160709 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [192.0.47.234] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "suzworldwide@gmail.com" Subject: [Arcing] lacking a reference for domain names... was Re: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-stw-whatsinaname-00.txt X-BeenThere: arcing@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: This list will discuss different architectural approaches to signalling alternative resolution contexts for Internet names List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2016 13:25:54 -0000 UmVmZXJyaW5nIHRvIHRoZSBkb2N1bWVudCB0aGF0IGNhbiBiZSBmb3VuZCBoZXJlOg0KIGh0dHBz Oi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL2ludGVybmV0LWRyYWZ0cy9kcmFmdC1zdHctd2hhdHNpbmFuYW1lLTAw LnR4dA0KDQpEaWZmZXJlbnRpYXRpbmcgdGhlIHN1YmplY3QgbGluZSBmb3IgYSBuZXcgdGhyZWFk Lg0KDQpJIGZpcnN0IHNlbnQgY29tbWVudHMgdG8gU3V6YW5uZSBvbiB0aGlzIGluIGFub3RoZXIg Y29udGV4dCwgbW9yZSByZWxhdGVkIHRvIGhvdyB0aGUgZG9jdW1lbnQgd2FzIGRlc2NyaWJlZCB0 byBtZSB2ZXJzdXMgd2hhdCBJIHJlYWQuICBUaGlzIGNvbW1lbnQgaXMgbm90IHJlbGF0ZWQgdG8g dGhhdCAod2hpY2ggd2FzIG1vcmUgYSBjb21tZW50IG9uIHRoZSBkZXNjcmlwdGlvbiBhbmQgbm90 IHRoZSBkb2N1bWVudC4gIEl0J3MgY29tcGxpY2F0ZWQuKQ0KDQpNeSBpbml0aWFsIGl0Y2ggYmVn aW5zIHdpdGggc29tZXRoaW5nIG1pc3NpbmcgZnJvbSB0aGlzIHBhc3NhZ2U6DQoNCj4gICBJdCdz IGNvbW1vbiBmb3IgcHJvdG9jb2wgZGVzaWduZXJzIGluIHRoaXMgcHJlZGljYW1lbnQgdG8gYXR0 ZW1wdCB0bw0KPiAgIHVzZSBkb21haW4gbmFtZXMgYXMgdGhlIHN0YXJ0aW5nIHBvaW50IGZvciB0 aGVpciBzeXN0ZW1zIG9mIG5hbWVzLA0KDQpXaGF0J3MgbWlzc2luZyBpcyBhIHJlZmVyZW5jZSBm b3IgImRvbWFpbiBuYW1lcy4iICBBZ2FpbiwgdGhpcyBpc24ndCBhIGhpdCBvbiB0aGUgZG9jdW1l bnQgYXQgaGFuZCAtIHRoZSBsYWNrIG9mIGEgZGVmaW5pdGlvbmFsIGRvY3VtZW50IGlzIGEgc2Vw YXJhdGUgdGhpbmcsIGJ1dCBhIG5lY2Vzc2FyeSBwcmVyZXF1aXNpdGUgZm9yIHRoaXMgZG9jdW1l bnQuICBXaXRob3V0IGEgZG9jdW1lbnRlZCBkZWZpbml0aW9uIG9mIGRvbWFpbiBuYW1lcywgd2Ug Y29udGludWUgdG8gZW5nYWdlIGluIGhhbmQgd2F2aW5nLg0KDQpJIGhhdmVuJ3QgaGFkIHRpbWUg dG8gcmVhZCB0aGUgcmVzdCBvZiB0aGUgZG9jdW1lbnQgYW5kIGNvbWUgdXAgd2l0aCB3b3J0aHdo aWxlIGNvbW1lbnRzLCB3aGljaCBJIHdpbGwgZ2V0ICh0aGUgdGltZSkgYWZ0ZXIgSSBiZWdpbiB0 cmF2ZWxpbmcgdG8gdGhlIElFVEYgdmVudWUuICAoSSBkaWQgc2tpbS4pICBJIHNlZSB0aGF0IHRo ZSBkb2N1bWVudCBkb2VzIHRhbGsgYWJvdXQgdGhlIEROUywgcG9saWN5LCBldGMuLCB3aGljaCBp cyBoZWxwZnVsIGJ1dCBzdGlsbCBkb2VzIG5vdCBnZXQgdG8gdGhlIGhlYXJ0IG9mIHdoYXQgaXMg bWVhbnQgYnkgZG9tYWluIG5hbWVzIChiZXlvbmQgdGhlIEROUykuICBUaGUgZHJhZnQgYXQgaGFu ZCB0b3VjaGVzIG9uIHRoZSBwcm9ibGVtIG9mIHRoZSBkYXkgKFNwZWNpYWwgVXNlIERvbWFpbiBO YW1lcyByZWdpc3RyeSkuDQoNCldoYXQgSSBoYXZlIGluIG1pbmQgaXMgdGhlIGV4cGVyaW1lbnRl ciwgY29kaW5nIHVwIGFuIGlubm92YXRpdmUgdXNlIG9mIHRoZSBuZXR3b3JrIGFuZCBmaW5kcyBh IG5lY2Vzc2FyeSBldmlsIGluIGhhdmluZyB0byBuYW1lIHRoaW5ncy4gIFRoZSBleHBlcmltZW50 ZXIgbWlnaHQgdHJ5IGZvciByZS11c2Ugb2Ygb3RoZXIgY29kZSBieSBzZWxlY3RpbmcgbmFtZXMg d2l0aCBkb3RzIGluIHRoZW0uICBBdCB0aGF0IHBvaW50LCB0aGUgZXhwZXJpbWVudGVyIG1pZ2h0 IG5lZWQgYSBndWlkZSB0byBzZWUgaWYgdGhlIG5hbWVzIGZpdCBhL3RoZSBuYW1pbmcgbW9kZWwg b2YgZG9tYWluIG5hbWVzIGFuZCBmcm9tIHRoYXQgc2VlIGlmIHRoZXJlIGlzIG1vcmUgdG8gbGV2 ZXJhZ2UuDQoNCkknbSBub3Qgc3VyZSB0aGUgZHJhZnQgYXQgaGFuZCAodGhlIGZyYW1ld29yayBh dCBoYW5kKSBjb3ZlcnMgdGhhdCB1c2UgY2FzZSAtICJub3Qgc3VyZSIgbWVhbmluZyBJIGhhdmVu J3QgaGFkIHRoZSB0aW1lIHRvIGR1dGlmdWxseSByZWFkIGNhcmVmdWxseSBhbmQgd3JpdGUgdXAg YSByZWFzb25hYmxlIHJlc3BvbnNlIChhcyBJJ3ZlIGFscmVhZHkgc2FpZCkuDQoNCg0K From nobody Wed Jul 13 08:27:58 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: arcing@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: arcing@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED26E12D84D for ; Wed, 13 Jul 2016 08:27:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=Oswh8nil; dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=JHv6AoU4 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2eQ6lonnRyYO for ; Wed, 13 Jul 2016 08:27:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from miucha.iecc.com (abusenet-1-pt.tunnel.tserv4.nyc4.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f06:1126::2]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8719E12D83E for ; Wed, 13 Jul 2016 08:27:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 87465 invoked from network); 13 Jul 2016 15:27:53 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:user-agent; s=155a8.57865df9.k1607; bh=H+N8ZG/RaLIJ6nDaX97q3SEwD0cFeXqLC8sNbNVkbvc=; b=Oswh8nilEHxgDgoiowQkgN9hoiN5x5LtlCv6o7SrsdNO2NWAdfnwlLfC5Ght1Xbxb3vHpLeg2sIfuVToVIgbZ/zxKykbl9pFAt8/HOrSQHAW04As/vUCd4ETuNaH+lCdKoedBIlxvJjr7oh6A2amm7QY8AwhW21okZBEUaSasBviEOoZgobXYrtCzMnueWrjj+R9BeCTzj6XtMChc33vyz8Y6yiyVFnMYqkY3HYI8YFd6s/3RJB/47BUoTlGGGAW DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:user-agent; s=155a8.57865df9.k1607; bh=H+N8ZG/RaLIJ6nDaX97q3SEwD0cFeXqLC8sNbNVkbvc=; b=JHv6AoU4YJSYpFTvXOs6TqSq5CbKOe/mbOpWn5BmQrdEthIz+PXOePobvH8xVQHZxIIGofeG9kLhNluNqpTzDbaq4kO8wB4r1Mfgka3R1SNkp1S9xZTmL+OIHn4tKpdAkQmN0bETREqW2v16MRFQkWmPdByGwdcVnr0dW0ZJucZSdp0wdWoKAt/l0z8KRZ6b9UR2NQ3Cacr082VZpmjoOGbY76Yg6EpICC9w0XObWOoNad9BkRRaAZqb1nfTOTZg Received: from localhost ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPS (TLS1.0/X.509/SHA1) via TCP6; 13 Jul 2016 15:27:53 -0000 Date: 13 Jul 2016 11:27:52 -0400 Message-ID: From: "John R Levine" To: "Suzanne Woolf" In-Reply-To: References: <20160712203057.33162.qmail@ary.lan> <68618C98-DCC2-41B6-869D-F470589B1C1C@gmail.com> <19C4F7E7-606D-4CCD-B598-510A0033AEFF@gmail.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.11 (OSX 23 2013-08-11) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Archived-At: Cc: arcing@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Arcing] New Version Notification for draft-stw-whatsinaname-00.txt X-BeenThere: arcing@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: This list will discuss different architectural approaches to signalling alternative resolution contexts for Internet names List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2016 15:27:56 -0000 > Would asking the questions in Sec. 4 of the whatsinaname draft have helped them/you be sure? Do other questions come to mind? Dunno. Some other questions that come to mind: * If the names are not resolved in the public DNS, will they be used in the same contexts as names that are? * Are the names likely to be used by people, e.g., typed into a box in a form, or only by software? Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail.