
From singer@apple.com  Fri Mar  4 15:56:29 2011
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From: David Singer <singer@apple.com>
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Friends

this is a minor update to the previous mime-bucket-bis, which in turn is =
a minor update to RFC 4281.  It adds a profiles parameter in addition to =
the codecs parameter, and tries to make it clearer what files these =
parameters apply to.

We'll be trying to finish this revision sometime soon, so, if you would =
like to, please review and comment soon!  Thanks


Begin forwarded message:

> From: IETF I-D Submission Tool <idsubmission@ietf.org>
> Date: March 4, 2011 15:54:07 PST
> To: singer@apple.com
> Cc: randy@qualcomm.com, Per.Frojdh@ericsson.com
> Subject: New Version Notification for draft-gellens-mime-bucket-bis-03
>=20
>=20
> A new version of I-D, draft-gellens-mime-bucket-bis-03.txt has been =
successfully submitted by David Singer and posted to the IETF =
repository.
>=20
> Filename:	 draft-gellens-mime-bucket-bis
> Revision:	 03
> Title:		 The Codecs and Profiles Parameters for "Bucket" =
Media Types
> Creation_date:	 2011-03-04
> WG ID:		 Independent Submission
> Number_of_pages: 23
>=20
> Abstract:
> Several MIME type/subtype combinations exist that can contain
> different media formats.  A receiving agent thus needs to examine the
> details of such media content to determine if the specific elements
> can be rendered given an available set of codecs.  Especially when
> the end system has limited resources, or the connection to the end
> system has limited bandwidth, it is helpful to know from the Content-
> Type alone if the content can be rendered.
>=20
> This document specifies two parameters, "codecs" and "profiles",
> which are used with various MIME types or type/subtype combinations
> to allow for unambiguous specification of the codecs and/or profiles
> employed by the media formats contained within.
>=20
> By labeling content with the specific codecs indicated to render the
> contained media, receiving systems can determine if the codecs are
> supported by the end system, and if not, can take appropriate action
> (such as rejecting the content, sending notification of the
> situation, transcoding the content to a supported type, fetching and
> installing the required codecs, further inspection to determine if it
> will be sufficient to support a subset of the indicated codecs, etc.)
>=20
> Similarly, the profiles can provide an overall indication, to the
> receiver, of the specifications with which the content complies.  The
> receiver may be able to work out the extent to which it can handle
> and render the content by examining to see which of the declared
> profiles it supports, and what they mean.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> The IETF Secretariat.
>=20
>=20

David Singer
Multimedia and Software Standards, Apple Inc.


From henry.sinnreich@gmail.com  Fri Mar  4 16:17:52 2011
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Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2011 18:18:53 -0600
From: Henry Sinnreich <henry.sinnreich@gmail.com>
To: David Singer <singer@apple.com>, DISPATCH list <dispatch@ietf.org>
Message-ID: <C996DD8D.19BFA%henry.sinnreich@gmail.com>
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This I-D offers IMO a most interesting alternative to the SIP/SDP codec
negotiation and needless to say is working very well.
Just wondering (naively no doubt) what may also be applicable to the media
component for the RTC-Web.

Disclaimer: Just another rant against using SDP in the signaling component.

Thanks, Henry


On 3/4/11 5:57 PM, "David Singer" <singer@apple.com> wrote:

> Friends
> 
> this is a minor update to the previous mime-bucket-bis, which in turn is a
> minor update to RFC 4281.  It adds a profiles parameter in addition to the
> codecs parameter, and tries to make it clearer what files these parameters
> apply to.
> 
> We'll be trying to finish this revision sometime soon, so, if you would like
> to, please review and comment soon!  Thanks
> 
> 
> Begin forwarded message:
> 
>> From: IETF I-D Submission Tool <idsubmission@ietf.org>
>> Date: March 4, 2011 15:54:07 PST
>> To: singer@apple.com
>> Cc: randy@qualcomm.com, Per.Frojdh@ericsson.com
>> Subject: New Version Notification for draft-gellens-mime-bucket-bis-03
>> 
>> 
>> A new version of I-D, draft-gellens-mime-bucket-bis-03.txt has been
>> successfully submitted by David Singer and posted to the IETF repository.
>> 
>> Filename:  draft-gellens-mime-bucket-bis
>> Revision:  03
>> Title:   The Codecs and Profiles Parameters for "Bucket" Media Types
>> Creation_date:  2011-03-04
>> WG ID:   Independent Submission
>> Number_of_pages: 23
>> 
>> Abstract:
>> Several MIME type/subtype combinations exist that can contain
>> different media formats.  A receiving agent thus needs to examine the
>> details of such media content to determine if the specific elements
>> can be rendered given an available set of codecs.  Especially when
>> the end system has limited resources, or the connection to the end
>> system has limited bandwidth, it is helpful to know from the Content-
>> Type alone if the content can be rendered.
>> 
>> This document specifies two parameters, "codecs" and "profiles",
>> which are used with various MIME types or type/subtype combinations
>> to allow for unambiguous specification of the codecs and/or profiles
>> employed by the media formats contained within.
>> 
>> By labeling content with the specific codecs indicated to render the
>> contained media, receiving systems can determine if the codecs are
>> supported by the end system, and if not, can take appropriate action
>> (such as rejecting the content, sending notification of the
>> situation, transcoding the content to a supported type, fetching and
>> installing the required codecs, further inspection to determine if it
>> will be sufficient to support a subset of the indicated codecs, etc.)
>> 
>> Similarly, the profiles can provide an overall indication, to the
>> receiver, of the specifications with which the content complies.  The
>> receiver may be able to work out the extent to which it can handle
>> and render the content by examining to see which of the declared
>> profiles it supports, and what they mean.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> The IETF Secretariat.
>> 
>> 
> 
> David Singer
> Multimedia and Software Standards, Apple Inc.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> dispatch mailing list
> dispatch@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch



From magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com  Mon Mar  7 02:20:15 2011
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Hi,

Colin Perkins, Joerg Ott and I have created this draft about RTC-WEB's
usage of RTP. Feedback and discussion are most appreciated.

Cheers

Magnus Westerlund

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ericsson AB                | Phone  +46 10 7148287
Färögatan 6                | Mobile +46 73 0949079
SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden| mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies.

	Title           : RTP Requirements for RTC-Web
	Author(s)       : C. Perkins, et al.
	Filename        : draft-perkins-rtcweb-rtp-usage-00.txt
	Pages           : 16
	Date            : 2011-03-07

This document discusses usage of RTP in the context of RTC-WEB work.
It discusses important factors of RTP to consider by other parts of
the solution, it also discusses which RTP profile to support and
which RTP extensions that should be supported.

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-perkins-rtcweb-rtp-usage-00.txt

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Subject: [dispatch] New Draft - draft-elz-dispatch-req-sip-3rdpartyprivacy-00
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--0-644207344-1299498663=:17498
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All,=0A=0AI have submitted a new draft relating to third party privacy in S=
IP messages.=0A=0AThere are two specific issues included, how to specify th=
ird party privacy in a =0ASIP message; the precedence of privacy settings b=
etween Privacy header values =0Aand Privacy URI parameters.=0A=0AThe things=
 to consider are:=0A=0AShould this work be pursued and if so in which forum=
.=0A=0AA suitable solution to meet the requirements.=0A=0AHow any changes s=
hould be implemented: a new draft which modifies RFC3323 or an =0Aupdate to=
 RFC3323 which includes the additional work.=0A=0AAll comments welcome.=0A=
=0ASorry I forgot to write the Abstract in version -00. I will include this=
 in the =0Anext version. ( I leave abstracts to last and overlooked this be=
fore =0Asubmission.)=0A=0AIan Elz=0A=0A=0A=0A      
--0-644207344-1299498663=:17498
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<html><head><style type=3D"text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></he=
ad><body><div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10p=
t"><div>All,<br><br>I have submitted a new draft relating to third party pr=
ivacy in SIP messages.<br><br>There are two specific issues included, how t=
o specify third party privacy in a SIP message; the precedence of privacy s=
ettings between Privacy header values and Privacy URI parameters.<br><br>Th=
e things to consider are:<br><br>Should this work be pursued and if so in w=
hich forum.<br><br>A suitable solution to meet the requirements.<br><br>How=
 any changes should be implemented: a new draft which modifies RFC3323 or a=
n update to RFC3323 which includes the additional work.<br><br>All comments=
 welcome.<br><br>Sorry I forgot to write the Abstract in version -00. I wil=
l include this in the next version. ( I leave abstracts to last and overloo=
ked this before submission.)<br><br>Ian Elz<br></div> </div><br>=0A=0A=0A=
=0A      </body></html>
--0-644207344-1299498663=:17498--

From christer.holmberg@ericsson.com  Mon Mar  7 10:11:46 2011
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From: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
To: "dispatch@ietf.org" <dispatch@ietf.org>
Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 19:12:50 +0100
Thread-Topic: Draft new: draft-holmberg-rtcweb-ucreqs-00 (Web Real-Time Communication Use-cases and Requirements)
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Subject: [dispatch] Draft new: draft-holmberg-rtcweb-ucreqs-00 (Web Real-Time Communication Use-cases and Requirements)
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Hi browser lovers,=20

We've submitted a use-case/requirement draft, draft-holmberg-rtcweb-ucreqs-=
00.txt, that we think could be used as a base when those discussions start.=
=20

The document describes some use-cases, and based on those proposes browser =
requirement, and application-browser API requirements. It focues on media r=
elated issue. Ie issues related to privacy, signalling between the browser =
and web server etc, are currenly not considered.=20

Best regards,=20

Christer


From vkg@bell-labs.com  Mon Mar  7 14:23:52 2011
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Subject: [dispatch] SIP load balancing
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Hello: The work going on in the SOC working group has highlighted
the need for some guidelines or strategies for SIP load balancing.

RjS had started some preliminary work on this way back in 2003 [1],
but that effort seems not to have proceeded further.  Furthermore,
our collective knowledge on SIP has increased since 2003 such that
some of the mechanisms discussed in the early work may no longer be
directly applicable (e.g., use of 503 and resulting problems with
overload, modifying route-sets may impinge on signing the route set
[2], etc.)

My co-author (Thierry Bessis) and I have put together a short draft
on load balancing that I have just submitted to the IETF
archives [3].  It will be good to have some folks take a look at it
and suggest improvements or to point out any shortcomings, of which
I am sure there will be many.

If there is interest, we can discuss this in the dispatch working
group in Prague.

[1] http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sparks-sipping-load-00
[2] http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5658
[3] 
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bessis-dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing-00

Thanks,

- vijay
-- 
Vijay K. Gurbani, Bell Laboratories, Alcatel-Lucent
1960 Lucent Lane, Rm. 9C-533, Naperville, Illinois 60566 (USA)
Email: vkg@{bell-labs.com,acm.org} / vijay.gurbani@alcatel-lucent.com
Web:   http://ect.bell-labs.com/who/vkg/

From pkyzivat@cisco.com  Mon Mar  7 15:12:57 2011
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Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing
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Vijay,

IIUC, the algorithm you have proposed is similar to the one Paul Jones 
has proposed - with the main difference being the numeric range of the 
weight. Do I have that right?

It isn't clear to me from your draft if you are specifying the algorithm 
by which the relative weights are used to determine the probability of a 
request going to one server or another. ISTM that it *does* matter. And 
it especially matters if there is an implication that the upstream 
node's algorithm may depend on some assumption or knowledge about the 
downstream nodes.

And of course this method of reporting weights isn't sufficient to drive 
a balancing algorithm that is sensitive to some requests requiring more 
or different resources than others. (That seems to be a real problem, 
though I don't know if we have a real solution for it.)

	Thanks,
	Paul

On 3/7/2011 5:26 PM, Vijay K. Gurbani wrote:
> Hello: The work going on in the SOC working group has highlighted
> the need for some guidelines or strategies for SIP load balancing.
>
> RjS had started some preliminary work on this way back in 2003 [1],
> but that effort seems not to have proceeded further. Furthermore,
> our collective knowledge on SIP has increased since 2003 such that
> some of the mechanisms discussed in the early work may no longer be
> directly applicable (e.g., use of 503 and resulting problems with
> overload, modifying route-sets may impinge on signing the route set
> [2], etc.)
>
> My co-author (Thierry Bessis) and I have put together a short draft
> on load balancing that I have just submitted to the IETF
> archives [3]. It will be good to have some folks take a look at it
> and suggest improvements or to point out any shortcomings, of which
> I am sure there will be many.
>
> If there is interest, we can discuss this in the dispatch working
> group in Prague.
>
> [1] http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-sparks-sipping-load-00
> [2] http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5658
> [3]
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bessis-dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing-00
>
> Thanks,
>
> - vijay

From vkg@bell-labs.com  Mon Mar  7 15:34:55 2011
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Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2011 17:37:43 -0600
From: "Vijay K. Gurbani" <vkg@bell-labs.com>
Organization: Bell Laboratories, Alcatel-Lucent
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Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing
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Paul: Thank you for your input.  More inline.

On 03/07/2011 05:14 PM, Paul Kyzivat wrote:
> Vijay,
> IIUC, the algorithm you have proposed is similar to the one Paul
> Jones has proposed - with the main difference being the numeric range
> of the weight. Do I have that right?

I believe that Paul J.'s algorithm is more suited towards overload
control, not load balancing (and I will await Paul J.'s correction to
my assertion).

The intent in draft-bessis-dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing is to
*always* report the current load to give the upstream SIP proxy
an indication of the health of the SIP server in the cluster.  If one
waits until overload is imminent, then it may be too late since a sudden
and unanticipated burst of messages will put the SIP server in
overload rather quickly.

> It isn't clear to me from your draft if you are specifying the
> algorithm by which the relative weights are used to determine the
> probability of a request going to one server or another.

Yes, same way as RFC2782 does it.

> ISTM that it *does* matter. And it especially matters if there is an
> implication that the upstream node's algorithm may depend on some
> assumption or knowledge about the downstream nodes.

No knowledge, just a reported number that the upstream SIP proxy can
treat as a RFC2782-like weight indicator.  Today, rfc3263-resolution
starts off with the SRV indicators in RFC2782, without any regard
to additional knowledge or assumption about downstream nodes.
dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing is trying to use the same model,
except render the weight to be sensitive to the current traffic
in the cluster in real-time.

> And of course this method of reporting weights isn't sufficient to
> drive a balancing algorithm that is sensitive to some requests
> requiring more or different resources than others. (That seems to be
> a real problem, though I don't know if we have a real solution for
> it.)

Yes, that is a real problem, as is the problem of a SIP server in a
cluster that has a low weight and is thus not contacted with enough
frequency to merit more participation to the goodput.

It is well known in SIP that some methods are more onerous to process
than others --- from a proxying point of view, processing an INVITE
with forking and response aggregation is far more detrimental to
resource usage than is processing a BYE.  Some existing literature
techniques thus add a coefficient to the weight of sending an INVITE
versus a BYE.  At this time, the process outlined in 
dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing treats all requests the same, but we 
can definitely
look at ways to change this behaviour.

Thanks,

- vijay
-- 
Vijay K. Gurbani, Bell Laboratories, Alcatel-Lucent
1960 Lucent Lane, Rm. 9C-533, Naperville, Illinois 60566 (USA)
Email: vkg@{bell-labs.com,acm.org} / vijay.gurbani@alcatel-lucent.com
Web:   http://ect.bell-labs.com/who/vkg/

From paulej@packetizer.com  Mon Mar  7 21:04:13 2011
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From: "Paul E. Jones" <paulej@packetizer.com>
To: "'Vijay K. Gurbani'" <vkg@bell-labs.com>, <dispatch@ietf.org>
References: <4D755B9E.6030008@bell-labs.com> <4D7566C1.40605@cisco.com> <4D756C47.1000509@bell-labs.com>
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Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing
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Vijay,

The Session Capacity Estimate (SCE) idea is actually quite similar to the
"adaptive load balancing" draft, from what I can see.  SCE was proposed as a
solution to the "overload" problem, the approach being one where we try to
avoid overload by selecting a device that reports a higher capacity value.
Thus, one could view it as "overload control through load balancing".  We
didn't explicitly call it load balancing, though, because we were not trying
to balance load (i.e., place the same load on all servers).  Rather, we just
wanted to direct traffic to devices that we knew had available capacity.

In practice, the way SCE would be employed is the following:
* SIP proxy, B2BUA, etc. (selector) would receive SCE capacity from
   peer devices
 * The selector would direct traffic toward the peer devices in a
   round-robin fashion, taking into consideration the SCE value so
   as to prevent exhausting resources on any given peer device
 * Once the peer's SCE value dropped below a given "low-water mark",
   the peer device would be less favored and not given traffic until
   the SCE value increases above the low-water mark (OPTIONS "ping"
   messages may be used to determine the SCE value in the event that
   there is no other traffic)
 * The current SOC overload control mechanism would be used to
   to prevent message overloading, as SCE only focuses on resource
   overloading (e.g., memory, CPU, disk space, DSPs)

Note that the "round-robin" approach may or may not be preferred and is not
required in our draft.  I've found this approach works pretty well, but one
may prefer to use a particular weighting that is more complex.  I don't
think local decisions in the box need to be subject to standardization: we
just need to standardize the signaling to enable such decisions.

In any case, it certainly looks like we're thinking along the same lines.

Paul

> -----Original Message-----
> From: dispatch-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:dispatch-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Vijay K. Gurbani
> Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 6:38 PM
> To: dispatch@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing
> 
> Paul: Thank you for your input.  More inline.
> 
> On 03/07/2011 05:14 PM, Paul Kyzivat wrote:
> > Vijay,
> > IIUC, the algorithm you have proposed is similar to the one Paul Jones
> > has proposed - with the main difference being the numeric range of the
> > weight. Do I have that right?
> 
> I believe that Paul J.'s algorithm is more suited towards overload
> control, not load balancing (and I will await Paul J.'s correction to my
> assertion).
> 
> The intent in draft-bessis-dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing is to
> *always* report the current load to give the upstream SIP proxy an
> indication of the health of the SIP server in the cluster.  If one waits
> until overload is imminent, then it may be too late since a sudden and
> unanticipated burst of messages will put the SIP server in overload
> rather quickly.
> 
> > It isn't clear to me from your draft if you are specifying the
> > algorithm by which the relative weights are used to determine the
> > probability of a request going to one server or another.
> 
> Yes, same way as RFC2782 does it.
> 
> > ISTM that it *does* matter. And it especially matters if there is an
> > implication that the upstream node's algorithm may depend on some
> > assumption or knowledge about the downstream nodes.
> 
> No knowledge, just a reported number that the upstream SIP proxy can
> treat as a RFC2782-like weight indicator.  Today, rfc3263-resolution
> starts off with the SRV indicators in RFC2782, without any regard to
> additional knowledge or assumption about downstream nodes.
> dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing is trying to use the same model, except
> render the weight to be sensitive to the current traffic in the cluster
> in real-time.
> 
> > And of course this method of reporting weights isn't sufficient to
> > drive a balancing algorithm that is sensitive to some requests
> > requiring more or different resources than others. (That seems to be a
> > real problem, though I don't know if we have a real solution for
> > it.)
> 
> Yes, that is a real problem, as is the problem of a SIP server in a
> cluster that has a low weight and is thus not contacted with enough
> frequency to merit more participation to the goodput.
> 
> It is well known in SIP that some methods are more onerous to process
> than others --- from a proxying point of view, processing an INVITE with
> forking and response aggregation is far more detrimental to resource
> usage than is processing a BYE.  Some existing literature techniques
> thus add a coefficient to the weight of sending an INVITE versus a BYE.
> At this time, the process outlined in dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing
> treats all requests the same, but we can definitely look at ways to
> change this behaviour.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> - vijay
> --
> Vijay K. Gurbani, Bell Laboratories, Alcatel-Lucent
> 1960 Lucent Lane, Rm. 9C-533, Naperville, Illinois 60566 (USA)
> Email: vkg@{bell-labs.com,acm.org} / vijay.gurbani@alcatel-lucent.com
> Web:   http://ect.bell-labs.com/who/vkg/
> _______________________________________________
> dispatch mailing list
> dispatch@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch


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Subject: [dispatch] New Draft - draft-elz-dispatch-req-sip-3rdpartyprivacy-00
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--0-1477614842-1299572141=:75599
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
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All,=0A=0AI have submitted a new draft relating to third party privacy in S=
IP messages.=0A=0Ahttp://www.ietf.org/id/draft-elz-dispatch-req-sip-3rdpart=
yprivacy-00.txt  (Link =0Athat I forgot in the previous posting.)=0A=0ATher=
e are two specific issues included, how to specify third party privacy in a=
 =0ASIP message; the precedence of privacy settings between Privacy header =
values =0Aand Privacy URI parameters.=0A=0AThe things to consider are:=0A=
=0AShould this work be pursued and if so in which forum.=0A=0AA suitable so=
lution to meet the requirements.=0A=0AHow any changes should be implemented=
: a new draft which modifies RFC3323 or an =0Aupdate to RFC3323 which inclu=
des the additional work.=0A=0AAll comments welcome.=0A=0ASorry I forgot to =
write the Abstract in version -00. I will include this in the =0Anext versi=
on. ( I leave abstracts to last and overlooked this before =0Asubmission.)=
=0A=0AIan Elz=0A=0A=0A      
--0-1477614842-1299572141=:75599
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<html><head><style type=3D"text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></he=
ad><body><div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10p=
t"><div>All,<br><br>I have submitted a new draft relating to third party pr=
ivacy in SIP messages.<br><br><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-elz-d=
ispatch-req-sip-3rdpartyprivacy-00.txt">http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-elz-di=
spatch-req-sip-3rdpartyprivacy-00.txt</a>&nbsp; (Link that I forgot in the =
previous posting.)<br><br>There=0Aare two specific issues included, how to =
specify third party privacy in=0Aa SIP message; the precedence of privacy s=
ettings between Privacy=0Aheader values and Privacy URI parameters.<br><br>=
The things to consider are:<br><br>Should this work be pursued and if so in=
 which forum.<br><br>A suitable solution to meet the requirements.<br><br>H=
ow=0Aany changes should be implemented: a new draft which modifies RFC3323=
=0Aor an update to RFC3323 which includes the additional work.<br><br>All c=
omments welcome.<br><br>Sorry=0AI forgot to write the Abstract in version -=
00. I will include this in=0Athe next version. ( I leave abstracts to last =
and overlooked this=0Abefore submission.)<br><br>Ian Elz</div>=0A</div><br>=
=0A=0A=0A=0A      </body></html>
--0-1477614842-1299572141=:75599--

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From: "Parthasarathi R (partr)" <partr@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing
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Vijay,

As Paul K & Paul J mentioned, I'm looking at your proposal with lot of
similarity to SCE. One more key stuff, I could not understand the need
for two separate mechanism for

1) Load balancing ("weight")
2) Overload control ("oc")

In case feedback mechanism to the upstream is generic enough, the load
balancer will be able to balance based on value (capacity) received from
downstream and reduce the load drastically or stop in case the value is
too low in terms of capacity. Even though any overload control algorithm
is used ("oc" or "weight" or "SCE" or "resource-availability" other),
the locally overload control mechanism is required in downstream as per
mentioned in draft-ietf-soc-overload-design. I wish that we will look
into these aspect because overload control is the extreme case for load
balancing the cluster of downstream entity and load balancing mechanism
shall help to avoid the overload control based on feedback.

I guess that your mechanism assumes about downstream SIP UA as signaling
entity only and does not handle media. Please correct me in case I
wrongly understand. draft-partha-dispatch-resource-availability-00 was
written to handle both resource monitoring and load balancing of SIP
based media servers wherein load balancing has to take care of overload
as well.

I'm also interested in discussing SIP load balancing topic during
IETF-80 meeting.

Thanks
Partha

-----Original Message-----
From: dispatch-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:dispatch-bounces@ietf.org] On
Behalf Of Paul E. Jones
Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2011 10:35 AM
To: 'Vijay K. Gurbani'; dispatch@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing

Vijay,

The Session Capacity Estimate (SCE) idea is actually quite similar to
the "adaptive load balancing" draft, from what I can see.  SCE was
proposed as a solution to the "overload" problem, the approach being one
where we try to avoid overload by selecting a device that reports a
higher capacity value.
Thus, one could view it as "overload control through load balancing".
We didn't explicitly call it load balancing, though, because we were not
trying to balance load (i.e., place the same load on all servers).
Rather, we just wanted to direct traffic to devices that we knew had
available capacity.

In practice, the way SCE would be employed is the following:
* SIP proxy, B2BUA, etc. (selector) would receive SCE capacity from
   peer devices
 * The selector would direct traffic toward the peer devices in a
   round-robin fashion, taking into consideration the SCE value so
   as to prevent exhausting resources on any given peer device
 * Once the peer's SCE value dropped below a given "low-water mark",
   the peer device would be less favored and not given traffic until
   the SCE value increases above the low-water mark (OPTIONS "ping"
   messages may be used to determine the SCE value in the event that
   there is no other traffic)
 * The current SOC overload control mechanism would be used to
   to prevent message overloading, as SCE only focuses on resource
   overloading (e.g., memory, CPU, disk space, DSPs)

Note that the "round-robin" approach may or may not be preferred and is
not required in our draft.  I've found this approach works pretty well,
but one may prefer to use a particular weighting that is more complex.
I don't think local decisions in the box need to be subject to
standardization: we just need to standardize the signaling to enable
such decisions.

In any case, it certainly looks like we're thinking along the same
lines.

Paul

> -----Original Message-----
> From: dispatch-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:dispatch-bounces@ietf.org] On=20
> Behalf Of Vijay K. Gurbani
> Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 6:38 PM
> To: dispatch@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing
>=20
> Paul: Thank you for your input.  More inline.
>=20
> On 03/07/2011 05:14 PM, Paul Kyzivat wrote:
> > Vijay,
> > IIUC, the algorithm you have proposed is similar to the one Paul=20
> > Jones has proposed - with the main difference being the numeric=20
> > range of the weight. Do I have that right?
>=20
> I believe that Paul J.'s algorithm is more suited towards overload=20
> control, not load balancing (and I will await Paul J.'s correction to=20
> my assertion).
>=20
> The intent in draft-bessis-dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing is to
> *always* report the current load to give the upstream SIP proxy an=20
> indication of the health of the SIP server in the cluster.  If one=20
> waits until overload is imminent, then it may be too late since a=20
> sudden and unanticipated burst of messages will put the SIP server in=20
> overload rather quickly.
>=20
> > It isn't clear to me from your draft if you are specifying the=20
> > algorithm by which the relative weights are used to determine the=20
> > probability of a request going to one server or another.
>=20
> Yes, same way as RFC2782 does it.
>=20
> > ISTM that it *does* matter. And it especially matters if there is an

> > implication that the upstream node's algorithm may depend on some=20
> > assumption or knowledge about the downstream nodes.
>=20
> No knowledge, just a reported number that the upstream SIP proxy can=20
> treat as a RFC2782-like weight indicator.  Today, rfc3263-resolution=20
> starts off with the SRV indicators in RFC2782, without any regard to=20
> additional knowledge or assumption about downstream nodes.
> dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing is trying to use the same model,=20
> except render the weight to be sensitive to the current traffic in the

> cluster in real-time.
>=20
> > And of course this method of reporting weights isn't sufficient to=20
> > drive a balancing algorithm that is sensitive to some requests=20
> > requiring more or different resources than others. (That seems to be

> > a real problem, though I don't know if we have a real solution for
> > it.)
>=20
> Yes, that is a real problem, as is the problem of a SIP server in a=20
> cluster that has a low weight and is thus not contacted with enough=20
> frequency to merit more participation to the goodput.
>=20
> It is well known in SIP that some methods are more onerous to process=20
> than others --- from a proxying point of view, processing an INVITE=20
> with forking and response aggregation is far more detrimental to=20
> resource usage than is processing a BYE.  Some existing literature=20
> techniques thus add a coefficient to the weight of sending an INVITE
versus a BYE.
> At this time, the process outlined in dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing

> treats all requests the same, but we can definitely look at ways to=20
> change this behaviour.
>=20
> Thanks,
>=20
> - vijay
> --
> Vijay K. Gurbani, Bell Laboratories, Alcatel-Lucent 1960 Lucent Lane,=20
> Rm. 9C-533, Naperville, Illinois 60566 (USA)
> Email: vkg@{bell-labs.com,acm.org} / vijay.gurbani@alcatel-lucent.com
> Web:   http://ect.bell-labs.com/who/vkg/
> _______________________________________________
> dispatch mailing list
> dispatch@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch

_______________________________________________
dispatch mailing list
dispatch@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch

From pkyzivat@cisco.com  Tue Mar  8 05:48:34 2011
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Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing
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Vijay,

Thanks for clarifications. Now I think I understand what you are 
proposing. It is certainly simple, and better than nothing.

It *does* require that all the members of the load balancing set assign 
their own weights in a consistent way. This of course is no different 
than when the weights are assigned in DNS, except that its likely to be 
one person who puts all the weights into DNS, while the weights coming 
from the servers can be influenced by who implemented them. If they 
aren't all implemented consistently it can be a problem.

But this is a second order problem, and is probably unavoidable. (AFAIK 
every scheme for this space has a similar constraint.) It might need to 
be the subject of additional standardization/profiling, though it might 
not be ietf work.

	Thanks,
	Paul

On 3/7/2011 6:37 PM, Vijay K. Gurbani wrote:
> Paul: Thank you for your input. More inline.
>
> On 03/07/2011 05:14 PM, Paul Kyzivat wrote:
>> Vijay,
>> IIUC, the algorithm you have proposed is similar to the one Paul
>> Jones has proposed - with the main difference being the numeric range
>> of the weight. Do I have that right?
>
> I believe that Paul J.'s algorithm is more suited towards overload
> control, not load balancing (and I will await Paul J.'s correction to
> my assertion).
>
> The intent in draft-bessis-dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing is to
> *always* report the current load to give the upstream SIP proxy
> an indication of the health of the SIP server in the cluster. If one
> waits until overload is imminent, then it may be too late since a sudden
> and unanticipated burst of messages will put the SIP server in
> overload rather quickly.
>
>> It isn't clear to me from your draft if you are specifying the
>> algorithm by which the relative weights are used to determine the
>> probability of a request going to one server or another.
>
> Yes, same way as RFC2782 does it.
>
>> ISTM that it *does* matter. And it especially matters if there is an
>> implication that the upstream node's algorithm may depend on some
>> assumption or knowledge about the downstream nodes.
>
> No knowledge, just a reported number that the upstream SIP proxy can
> treat as a RFC2782-like weight indicator. Today, rfc3263-resolution
> starts off with the SRV indicators in RFC2782, without any regard
> to additional knowledge or assumption about downstream nodes.
> dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing is trying to use the same model,
> except render the weight to be sensitive to the current traffic
> in the cluster in real-time.
>
>> And of course this method of reporting weights isn't sufficient to
>> drive a balancing algorithm that is sensitive to some requests
>> requiring more or different resources than others. (That seems to be
>> a real problem, though I don't know if we have a real solution for
>> it.)
>
> Yes, that is a real problem, as is the problem of a SIP server in a
> cluster that has a low weight and is thus not contacted with enough
> frequency to merit more participation to the goodput.
>
> It is well known in SIP that some methods are more onerous to process
> than others --- from a proxying point of view, processing an INVITE
> with forking and response aggregation is far more detrimental to
> resource usage than is processing a BYE. Some existing literature
> techniques thus add a coefficient to the weight of sending an INVITE
> versus a BYE. At this time, the process outlined in
> dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing treats all requests the same, but we
> can definitely
> look at ways to change this behaviour.
>
> Thanks,
>
> - vijay

From pkyzivat@cisco.com  Tue Mar  8 06:11:34 2011
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Subject: Re: [dispatch] New Draft - draft-elz-dispatch-req-sip-3rdpartyprivacy-00
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Ian,

I'd like to thank you for submitting a clear requirements draft that is 
unburdened by mechanism proposals.

IMO the hard part of this issue is sorting out whether there is a need 
for a "generalized" mechanism dealing with arbitrary 3rd party 
identities, or just for a mechanism to deal with a specific enumerated 
set of 3rd party identities.

While its easy to wish for a generalized mechanism, I think it will be 
very difficult to adequately specify. If constrained to a specific set 
than it is a solvable problem.

	Thanks,
	Paul

On 3/8/2011 3:15 AM, Ian Elz wrote:
> All,
>
> I have submitted a new draft relating to third party privacy in SIP
> messages.
>
> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-elz-dispatch-req-sip-3rdpartyprivacy-00.txt
> (Link that I forgot in the previous posting.)
>
> There are two specific issues included, how to specify third party
> privacy in a SIP message; the precedence of privacy settings between
> Privacy header values and Privacy URI parameters.
>
> The things to consider are:
>
> Should this work be pursued and if so in which forum.
>
> A suitable solution to meet the requirements.
>
> How any changes should be implemented: a new draft which modifies
> RFC3323 or an update to RFC3323 which includes the additional work.
>
> All comments welcome.
>
> Sorry I forgot to write the Abstract in version -00. I will include this
> in the next version. ( I leave abstracts to last and overlooked this
> before submission.)
>
> Ian Elz
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> dispatch mailing list
> dispatch@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch

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To: "Parthasarathi R (partr)" <partr@cisco.com>, "Paul E. Jones" <paulej@packetizer.com>, "Vijay K. Gurbani" <vkg@bell-labs.com>, <dispatch@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing
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Is there a need to inter-twine media with signaling?

I think if there is an assumption that the media and signaling take the
same path,=20
then you've lost some flexibility, and worse make sub-optimal choices
when=20
one or the other is over-capacity and the other is not even in the
picture.

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: dispatch-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:dispatch-bounces@ietf.org] On
Behalf Of Parthasarathi R (partr)
Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2011 4:52 AM
To: Paul E. Jones; Vijay K. Gurbani; dispatch@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing

Vijay,

As Paul K & Paul J mentioned, I'm looking at your proposal with lot of
similarity to SCE. One more key stuff, I could not understand the need
for two separate mechanism for

1) Load balancing ("weight")
2) Overload control ("oc")

In case feedback mechanism to the upstream is generic enough, the load
balancer will be able to balance based on value (capacity) received from
downstream and reduce the load drastically or stop in case the value is
too low in terms of capacity. Even though any overload control algorithm
is used ("oc" or "weight" or "SCE" or "resource-availability" other),
the locally overload control mechanism is required in downstream as per
mentioned in draft-ietf-soc-overload-design. I wish that we will look
into these aspect because overload control is the extreme case for load
balancing the cluster of downstream entity and load balancing mechanism
shall help to avoid the overload control based on feedback.

I guess that your mechanism assumes about downstream SIP UA as signaling
entity only and does not handle media. Please correct me in case I
wrongly understand. draft-partha-dispatch-resource-availability-00 was
written to handle both resource monitoring and load balancing of SIP
based media servers wherein load balancing has to take care of overload
as well.

I'm also interested in discussing SIP load balancing topic during
IETF-80 meeting.

Thanks
Partha

-----Original Message-----
From: dispatch-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:dispatch-bounces@ietf.org] On
Behalf Of Paul E. Jones
Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2011 10:35 AM
To: 'Vijay K. Gurbani'; dispatch@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing

Vijay,

The Session Capacity Estimate (SCE) idea is actually quite similar to
the "adaptive load balancing" draft, from what I can see.  SCE was
proposed as a solution to the "overload" problem, the approach being one
where we try to avoid overload by selecting a device that reports a
higher capacity value.
Thus, one could view it as "overload control through load balancing".
We didn't explicitly call it load balancing, though, because we were not
trying to balance load (i.e., place the same load on all servers).
Rather, we just wanted to direct traffic to devices that we knew had
available capacity.

In practice, the way SCE would be employed is the following:
* SIP proxy, B2BUA, etc. (selector) would receive SCE capacity from
   peer devices
 * The selector would direct traffic toward the peer devices in a
   round-robin fashion, taking into consideration the SCE value so
   as to prevent exhausting resources on any given peer device
 * Once the peer's SCE value dropped below a given "low-water mark",
   the peer device would be less favored and not given traffic until
   the SCE value increases above the low-water mark (OPTIONS "ping"
   messages may be used to determine the SCE value in the event that
   there is no other traffic)
 * The current SOC overload control mechanism would be used to
   to prevent message overloading, as SCE only focuses on resource
   overloading (e.g., memory, CPU, disk space, DSPs)

Note that the "round-robin" approach may or may not be preferred and is
not required in our draft.  I've found this approach works pretty well,
but one may prefer to use a particular weighting that is more complex.
I don't think local decisions in the box need to be subject to
standardization: we just need to standardize the signaling to enable
such decisions.

In any case, it certainly looks like we're thinking along the same
lines.

Paul

> -----Original Message-----
> From: dispatch-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:dispatch-bounces@ietf.org] On=20
> Behalf Of Vijay K. Gurbani
> Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 6:38 PM
> To: dispatch@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing
>=20
> Paul: Thank you for your input.  More inline.
>=20
> On 03/07/2011 05:14 PM, Paul Kyzivat wrote:
> > Vijay,
> > IIUC, the algorithm you have proposed is similar to the one Paul=20
> > Jones has proposed - with the main difference being the numeric=20
> > range of the weight. Do I have that right?
>=20
> I believe that Paul J.'s algorithm is more suited towards overload=20
> control, not load balancing (and I will await Paul J.'s correction to=20
> my assertion).
>=20
> The intent in draft-bessis-dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing is to
> *always* report the current load to give the upstream SIP proxy an=20
> indication of the health of the SIP server in the cluster.  If one=20
> waits until overload is imminent, then it may be too late since a=20
> sudden and unanticipated burst of messages will put the SIP server in=20
> overload rather quickly.
>=20
> > It isn't clear to me from your draft if you are specifying the=20
> > algorithm by which the relative weights are used to determine the=20
> > probability of a request going to one server or another.
>=20
> Yes, same way as RFC2782 does it.
>=20
> > ISTM that it *does* matter. And it especially matters if there is an

> > implication that the upstream node's algorithm may depend on some=20
> > assumption or knowledge about the downstream nodes.
>=20
> No knowledge, just a reported number that the upstream SIP proxy can=20
> treat as a RFC2782-like weight indicator.  Today, rfc3263-resolution=20
> starts off with the SRV indicators in RFC2782, without any regard to=20
> additional knowledge or assumption about downstream nodes.
> dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing is trying to use the same model,=20
> except render the weight to be sensitive to the current traffic in the

> cluster in real-time.
>=20
> > And of course this method of reporting weights isn't sufficient to=20
> > drive a balancing algorithm that is sensitive to some requests=20
> > requiring more or different resources than others. (That seems to be

> > a real problem, though I don't know if we have a real solution for
> > it.)
>=20
> Yes, that is a real problem, as is the problem of a SIP server in a=20
> cluster that has a low weight and is thus not contacted with enough=20
> frequency to merit more participation to the goodput.
>=20
> It is well known in SIP that some methods are more onerous to process=20
> than others --- from a proxying point of view, processing an INVITE=20
> with forking and response aggregation is far more detrimental to=20
> resource usage than is processing a BYE.  Some existing literature=20
> techniques thus add a coefficient to the weight of sending an INVITE
versus a BYE.
> At this time, the process outlined in dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing

> treats all requests the same, but we can definitely look at ways to=20
> change this behaviour.
>=20
> Thanks,
>=20
> - vijay
> --
> Vijay K. Gurbani, Bell Laboratories, Alcatel-Lucent 1960 Lucent Lane,=20
> Rm. 9C-533, Naperville, Illinois 60566 (USA)
> Email: vkg@{bell-labs.com,acm.org} / vijay.gurbani@alcatel-lucent.com
> Web:   http://ect.bell-labs.com/who/vkg/
> _______________________________________________
> dispatch mailing list
> dispatch@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch

_______________________________________________
dispatch mailing list
dispatch@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
_______________________________________________
dispatch mailing list
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch

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From: "Parthasarathi R (partr)" <partr@cisco.com>
To: "Mike Hammer (hmmr)" <hmmr@cisco.com>, "Paul E. Jones" <paulej@packetizer.com>, "Vijay K. Gurbani" <vkg@bell-labs.com>, <dispatch@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing
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Mike,

The mechanism is required for the SIP based media servers to load
balancer. Media servers may be based on IETF mediactrl sort of
interfaces or SIP devices like SBC, PSTN GW. As you mentioned, the
problem in SIP based media server is complex as more resources involved
at the given time. =20

Thanks
Partha

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Hammer (hmmr)=20
Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2011 7:50 PM
To: Parthasarathi R (partr); Paul E. Jones; Vijay K. Gurbani;
dispatch@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [dispatch] SIP load balancing

Is there a need to inter-twine media with signaling?

I think if there is an assumption that the media and signaling take the
same path, then you've lost some flexibility, and worse make sub-optimal
choices when one or the other is over-capacity and the other is not even
in the picture.

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: dispatch-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:dispatch-bounces@ietf.org] On
Behalf Of Parthasarathi R (partr)
Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2011 4:52 AM
To: Paul E. Jones; Vijay K. Gurbani; dispatch@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing

Vijay,

As Paul K & Paul J mentioned, I'm looking at your proposal with lot of
similarity to SCE. One more key stuff, I could not understand the need
for two separate mechanism for

1) Load balancing ("weight")
2) Overload control ("oc")

In case feedback mechanism to the upstream is generic enough, the load
balancer will be able to balance based on value (capacity) received from
downstream and reduce the load drastically or stop in case the value is
too low in terms of capacity. Even though any overload control algorithm
is used ("oc" or "weight" or "SCE" or "resource-availability" other),
the locally overload control mechanism is required in downstream as per
mentioned in draft-ietf-soc-overload-design. I wish that we will look
into these aspect because overload control is the extreme case for load
balancing the cluster of downstream entity and load balancing mechanism
shall help to avoid the overload control based on feedback.

I guess that your mechanism assumes about downstream SIP UA as signaling
entity only and does not handle media. Please correct me in case I
wrongly understand. draft-partha-dispatch-resource-availability-00 was
written to handle both resource monitoring and load balancing of SIP
based media servers wherein load balancing has to take care of overload
as well.

I'm also interested in discussing SIP load balancing topic during
IETF-80 meeting.

Thanks
Partha

-----Original Message-----
From: dispatch-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:dispatch-bounces@ietf.org] On
Behalf Of Paul E. Jones
Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2011 10:35 AM
To: 'Vijay K. Gurbani'; dispatch@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing

Vijay,

The Session Capacity Estimate (SCE) idea is actually quite similar to
the "adaptive load balancing" draft, from what I can see.  SCE was
proposed as a solution to the "overload" problem, the approach being one
where we try to avoid overload by selecting a device that reports a
higher capacity value.
Thus, one could view it as "overload control through load balancing".
We didn't explicitly call it load balancing, though, because we were not
trying to balance load (i.e., place the same load on all servers).
Rather, we just wanted to direct traffic to devices that we knew had
available capacity.

In practice, the way SCE would be employed is the following:
* SIP proxy, B2BUA, etc. (selector) would receive SCE capacity from
   peer devices
 * The selector would direct traffic toward the peer devices in a
   round-robin fashion, taking into consideration the SCE value so
   as to prevent exhausting resources on any given peer device
 * Once the peer's SCE value dropped below a given "low-water mark",
   the peer device would be less favored and not given traffic until
   the SCE value increases above the low-water mark (OPTIONS "ping"
   messages may be used to determine the SCE value in the event that
   there is no other traffic)
 * The current SOC overload control mechanism would be used to
   to prevent message overloading, as SCE only focuses on resource
   overloading (e.g., memory, CPU, disk space, DSPs)

Note that the "round-robin" approach may or may not be preferred and is
not required in our draft.  I've found this approach works pretty well,
but one may prefer to use a particular weighting that is more complex.
I don't think local decisions in the box need to be subject to
standardization: we just need to standardize the signaling to enable
such decisions.

In any case, it certainly looks like we're thinking along the same
lines.

Paul

> -----Original Message-----
> From: dispatch-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:dispatch-bounces@ietf.org] On=20
> Behalf Of Vijay K. Gurbani
> Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 6:38 PM
> To: dispatch@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing
>=20
> Paul: Thank you for your input.  More inline.
>=20
> On 03/07/2011 05:14 PM, Paul Kyzivat wrote:
> > Vijay,
> > IIUC, the algorithm you have proposed is similar to the one Paul=20
> > Jones has proposed - with the main difference being the numeric=20
> > range of the weight. Do I have that right?
>=20
> I believe that Paul J.'s algorithm is more suited towards overload=20
> control, not load balancing (and I will await Paul J.'s correction to=20
> my assertion).
>=20
> The intent in draft-bessis-dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing is to
> *always* report the current load to give the upstream SIP proxy an=20
> indication of the health of the SIP server in the cluster.  If one=20
> waits until overload is imminent, then it may be too late since a=20
> sudden and unanticipated burst of messages will put the SIP server in=20
> overload rather quickly.
>=20
> > It isn't clear to me from your draft if you are specifying the=20
> > algorithm by which the relative weights are used to determine the=20
> > probability of a request going to one server or another.
>=20
> Yes, same way as RFC2782 does it.
>=20
> > ISTM that it *does* matter. And it especially matters if there is an

> > implication that the upstream node's algorithm may depend on some=20
> > assumption or knowledge about the downstream nodes.
>=20
> No knowledge, just a reported number that the upstream SIP proxy can=20
> treat as a RFC2782-like weight indicator.  Today, rfc3263-resolution=20
> starts off with the SRV indicators in RFC2782, without any regard to=20
> additional knowledge or assumption about downstream nodes.
> dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing is trying to use the same model,=20
> except render the weight to be sensitive to the current traffic in the

> cluster in real-time.
>=20
> > And of course this method of reporting weights isn't sufficient to=20
> > drive a balancing algorithm that is sensitive to some requests=20
> > requiring more or different resources than others. (That seems to be

> > a real problem, though I don't know if we have a real solution for
> > it.)
>=20
> Yes, that is a real problem, as is the problem of a SIP server in a=20
> cluster that has a low weight and is thus not contacted with enough=20
> frequency to merit more participation to the goodput.
>=20
> It is well known in SIP that some methods are more onerous to process=20
> than others --- from a proxying point of view, processing an INVITE=20
> with forking and response aggregation is far more detrimental to=20
> resource usage than is processing a BYE.  Some existing literature=20
> techniques thus add a coefficient to the weight of sending an INVITE
versus a BYE.
> At this time, the process outlined in dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing

> treats all requests the same, but we can definitely look at ways to=20
> change this behaviour.
>=20
> Thanks,
>=20
> - vijay
> --
> Vijay K. Gurbani, Bell Laboratories, Alcatel-Lucent 1960 Lucent Lane,=20
> Rm. 9C-533, Naperville, Illinois 60566 (USA)
> Email: vkg@{bell-labs.com,acm.org} / vijay.gurbani@alcatel-lucent.com
> Web:   http://ect.bell-labs.com/who/vkg/
> _______________________________________________
> dispatch mailing list
> dispatch@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch

_______________________________________________
dispatch mailing list
dispatch@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
_______________________________________________
dispatch mailing list
dispatch@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch

From spromano@unina.it  Tue Mar  8 06:39:27 2011
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Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing
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Hi Vijay,

interesting draft, indeed.
It brought to my mind that some of the ideas you are proposing can be 
found in Mobicent's implementation of Distributed Load Balancing, which 
makes use of 'Via' and 'Record-Route' headers to keep the Load Balancer 
in the loop, and exploits (in place of your piggybacking proposal) a 
proprietary 'heartbit' protocol (implemented with Java RMI) to report 
health status from SIP Servers to the SIP Proxy. Interestingly enough, 
inside Mobicents the balancer algorithms are 'pluggable': the original 
implementation is shipped with three different built-in algorithms, but 
nothing prevents implementers from proposing new ones.

As a general comment, I think that solutions like the one you are 
proposing have strong liaisons, besides Overload Control, with the 
broader issue of (transparent) fail-over management.

My 2 cents,

Simon



Il 08/03/2011 00:37, Vijay K. Gurbani ha scritto:
> Paul: Thank you for your input.  More inline.
>
> On 03/07/2011 05:14 PM, Paul Kyzivat wrote:
>> Vijay,
>> IIUC, the algorithm you have proposed is similar to the one Paul
>> Jones has proposed - with the main difference being the numeric range
>> of the weight. Do I have that right?
>
> I believe that Paul J.'s algorithm is more suited towards overload
> control, not load balancing (and I will await Paul J.'s correction to
> my assertion).
>
> The intent in draft-bessis-dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing is to
> *always* report the current load to give the upstream SIP proxy
> an indication of the health of the SIP server in the cluster.  If one
> waits until overload is imminent, then it may be too late since a sudden
> and unanticipated burst of messages will put the SIP server in
> overload rather quickly.
>
>> It isn't clear to me from your draft if you are specifying the
>> algorithm by which the relative weights are used to determine the
>> probability of a request going to one server or another.
>
> Yes, same way as RFC2782 does it.
>
>> ISTM that it *does* matter. And it especially matters if there is an
>> implication that the upstream node's algorithm may depend on some
>> assumption or knowledge about the downstream nodes.
>
> No knowledge, just a reported number that the upstream SIP proxy can
> treat as a RFC2782-like weight indicator.  Today, rfc3263-resolution
> starts off with the SRV indicators in RFC2782, without any regard
> to additional knowledge or assumption about downstream nodes.
> dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing is trying to use the same model,
> except render the weight to be sensitive to the current traffic
> in the cluster in real-time.
>
>> And of course this method of reporting weights isn't sufficient to
>> drive a balancing algorithm that is sensitive to some requests
>> requiring more or different resources than others. (That seems to be
>> a real problem, though I don't know if we have a real solution for
>> it.)
>
> Yes, that is a real problem, as is the problem of a SIP server in a
> cluster that has a low weight and is thus not contacted with enough
> frequency to merit more participation to the goodput.
>
> It is well known in SIP that some methods are more onerous to process
> than others --- from a proxying point of view, processing an INVITE
> with forking and response aggregation is far more detrimental to
> resource usage than is processing a BYE.  Some existing literature
> techniques thus add a coefficient to the weight of sending an INVITE
> versus a BYE.  At this time, the process outlined in 
> dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing treats all requests the same, but we 
> can definitely
> look at ways to change this behaviour.
>
> Thanks,
>
> - vijay

-- 
                             _\\|//_
                             ( O-O )
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~o00~~(_)~~00o~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                     Simon Pietro Romano
               Universita' di Napoli Federico II
                  Computer Science Department
         Phone: +39 081 7683823 -- Fax: +39 081 7684219
                 e-mail: spromano@unina.it
           http://www.comics.unina.it/simonpietro.romano

     <<Molti mi dicono che lo scoraggiamento è l'alibi degli
    idioti. Ci rifletto un istante; e mi scoraggio>>. Magritte.
                          oooO
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~(   )~~ Oooo~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                           \ (    (   )
                            \_)    ) /
                                  (_/



From Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com  Tue Mar  8 09:33:41 2011
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Paul,

Please let me address some of your comments.
I don't know what the SCE is, so please pardon me if I misunderstand 
something.

On 07-Mar-2011 23:05, Paul E. Jones wrote:
> Vijay,
>
> The Session Capacity Estimate (SCE) idea is actually quite similar to the
> "adaptive load balancing" draft, from what I can see.  SCE was proposed as a
> solution to the "overload" problem, the approach being one where we try to
> avoid overload by selecting a device that reports a higher capacity value.
> Thus, one could view it as "overload control through load balancing".  We
> didn't explicitly call it load balancing, though, because we were not trying
> to balance load (i.e., place the same load on all servers).  Rather, we just
> wanted to direct traffic to devices that we knew had available capacity.
Agreed, the goal seems to be the same: avoiding or at least delaying 
overload.
And your other comment too: our proposal does try to balance the load on 
all the servers. The rational is that it is very easy for each server to 
know where it is in terms of resource usage (for instance: I'm 60 
percent resource loaded at this moment), and this is just the 
information you need to balance the traffic. Now it seems (but it is not 
clear, see below)  that the SCE "available capacity" is actually a real 
time feedback, so the information would be very similar actually. 
(What's the difference ? )
> In practice, the way SCE would be employed is the following:
> * SIP proxy, B2BUA, etc. (selector) would receive SCE capacity from
>     peer devices
>   * The selector would direct traffic toward the peer devices in a
>     round-robin fashion, taking into consideration the SCE value so
>     as to prevent exhausting resources on any given peer device
I see a contradiction here: if it is round-robin, it does not take into 
account the SCE value.
Is that something more like a weighted round-robin algorithm ?
>   * Once the peer's SCE value dropped below a given "low-water mark",
>     the peer device would be less favored and not given traffic until
>     the SCE value increases above the low-water mark (OPTIONS "ping"
>     messages may be used to determine the SCE value in the event that
>     there is no other traffic)
Why would we wait for a lower mark before to influence the distribution 
? Also is that less favored, or given no traffic ?
The later has stability issues.  And why do we need ping Options when 
there is no traffic ?
  If there is no traffic (or very little), should we care about optimal 
distribution from this source ?
>   * The current SOC overload control mechanism would be used to
>     to prevent message overloading, as SCE only focuses on resource
>     overloading (e.g., memory, CPU, disk space, DSPs)
I don't see this difference here (message overload versus resource 
overload ? ) . To me, SOC focuses on source shedding, while SCE seems to 
focus on improved load distribution, just like our proposal.
> Note that the "round-robin" approach may or may not be preferred and is not
> required in our draft.  I've found this approach works pretty well, but one
> may prefer to use a particular weighting that is more complex.  I don't
> think local decisions in the box need to be subject to standardization: we
> just need to standardize the signaling to enable such decisions.
I believe the signaling is not enough. The deep meaning of the feedback 
parameter needs to be clarified too.
For example, in our proposal, the feedback is simply the current 
utilization rate of the node (very simple).

Also the expectation needs to be clarified because it has a very 
important impact on the recommended behavior in case of overload.
The solution that we propose constantly tries to balance load in the 
cluster of servers. Therefore, in case the SOC shedding kicks in, there 
is NOT NEED to repeat the message elsewhere in the cluster because it is 
balanced already (So no other server has more capacity). This is a huge 
advantage for the network stability as message repeat tends to spread 
the overload and collapse the cluster.
> In any case, it certainly looks like we're thinking along the same lines.
Yes I agree.

Cordially,

Thierry
> Paul
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: dispatch-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:dispatch-bounces@ietf.org] On
>> Behalf Of Vijay K. Gurbani
>> Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 6:38 PM
>> To: dispatch@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing
>>
>> Paul: Thank you for your input.  More inline.
>>
>> On 03/07/2011 05:14 PM, Paul Kyzivat wrote:
>>> Vijay,
>>> IIUC, the algorithm you have proposed is similar to the one Paul Jones
>>> has proposed - with the main difference being the numeric range of the
>>> weight. Do I have that right?
>> I believe that Paul J.'s algorithm is more suited towards overload
>> control, not load balancing (and I will await Paul J.'s correction to my
>> assertion).
>>
>> The intent in draft-bessis-dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing is to
>> *always* report the current load to give the upstream SIP proxy an
>> indication of the health of the SIP server in the cluster.  If one waits
>> until overload is imminent, then it may be too late since a sudden and
>> unanticipated burst of messages will put the SIP server in overload
>> rather quickly.
>>
>>> It isn't clear to me from your draft if you are specifying the
>>> algorithm by which the relative weights are used to determine the
>>> probability of a request going to one server or another.
>> Yes, same way as RFC2782 does it.
>>
>>> ISTM that it *does* matter. And it especially matters if there is an
>>> implication that the upstream node's algorithm may depend on some
>>> assumption or knowledge about the downstream nodes.
>> No knowledge, just a reported number that the upstream SIP proxy can
>> treat as a RFC2782-like weight indicator.  Today, rfc3263-resolution
>> starts off with the SRV indicators in RFC2782, without any regard to
>> additional knowledge or assumption about downstream nodes.
>> dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing is trying to use the same model, except
>> render the weight to be sensitive to the current traffic in the cluster
>> in real-time.
>>
>>> And of course this method of reporting weights isn't sufficient to
>>> drive a balancing algorithm that is sensitive to some requests
>>> requiring more or different resources than others. (That seems to be a
>>> real problem, though I don't know if we have a real solution for
>>> it.)
>> Yes, that is a real problem, as is the problem of a SIP server in a
>> cluster that has a low weight and is thus not contacted with enough
>> frequency to merit more participation to the goodput.
>>
>> It is well known in SIP that some methods are more onerous to process
>> than others --- from a proxying point of view, processing an INVITE with
>> forking and response aggregation is far more detrimental to resource
>> usage than is processing a BYE.  Some existing literature techniques
>> thus add a coefficient to the weight of sending an INVITE versus a BYE.
>> At this time, the process outlined in dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing
>> treats all requests the same, but we can definitely look at ways to
>> change this behaviour.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> - vijay
>> --
>> Vijay K. Gurbani, Bell Laboratories, Alcatel-Lucent
>> 1960 Lucent Lane, Rm. 9C-533, Naperville, Illinois 60566 (USA)
>> Email: vkg@{bell-labs.com,acm.org} / vijay.gurbani@alcatel-lucent.com
>> Web:   http://ect.bell-labs.com/who/vkg/
>> _______________________________________________
>> dispatch mailing list
>> dispatch@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
> _______________________________________________
> dispatch mailing list
> dispatch@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch

-- 
-- 
Cordially,
Thierry Bessis
IMS Solution: Architecture & Product Management - ALTA Member
   Organization: ALU > Carrier group > Wireline BU > **IMS Sol Arch, SE, PdM
Alcatel-Lucent
1960 Lucent Lane - Room 6L-517
   Naperville, IL  60563  U S
   Tel/Fax: +1 630 979 7989
   Corporate IM: tbessis    - Yahoo IM:     thierry_bessis

My WEB page:   http://ihgpweb.ih.lucent.com/~tbessis/
My Calendar:   www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=new_frs3175%40yahoo.fr
ALTA Hot Line: http://alta.all.alcatel-lucent.com/hotline

Conference information:
2801 2801 (US):+1 800 771 8734 - (F):+33 800 941 674 - Access Code: 9797989
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Upcoming planned Business Trip: 12 April - 14 April 2011
Upcoming planned Vacation: None

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    <meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
      http-equiv="Content-Type">
  </head>
  <body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
    Paul, <br>
    <br>
    Please let me address some of your comments. <br>
    I don't know what the SCE is, so please pardon me if I misunderstand
    something. <br>
    <br>
    On 07-Mar-2011 23:05, Paul E. Jones wrote:
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:086e01cbdd4e$6b8188f0$42849ad0$@packetizer.com"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">Vijay,

The Session Capacity Estimate (SCE) idea is actually quite similar to the
"adaptive load balancing" draft, from what I can see.  SCE was proposed as a
solution to the "overload" problem, the approach being one where we try to
avoid overload by selecting a device that reports a higher capacity value.
Thus, one could view it as "overload control through load balancing".  We
didn't explicitly call it load balancing, though, because we were not trying
to balance load (i.e., place the same load on all servers).  Rather, we just
wanted to direct traffic to devices that we knew had available capacity.
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    Agreed, the goal seems to be the same: avoiding or at least delaying
    overload. <br>
    And your other comment too: our proposal does try to balance the
    load on all the servers. The rational is that it is very easy for
    each server to know where it is in terms of resource usage (for
    instance: I'm 60 percent resource loaded at this moment), and this
    is just the information you need to balance the traffic. Now it
    seems (but it is not clear, see below)&nbsp; that the SCE "available
    capacity" is actually a real time feedback, so the information would
    be very similar actually. (What's the difference ? ) <br>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:086e01cbdd4e$6b8188f0$42849ad0$@packetizer.com"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">
In practice, the way SCE would be employed is the following:
* SIP proxy, B2BUA, etc. (selector) would receive SCE capacity from
   peer devices
 * The selector would direct traffic toward the peer devices in a
   round-robin fashion, taking into consideration the SCE value so
   as to prevent exhausting resources on any given peer device
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    I see a contradiction here: if it is round-robin, it does not take
    into account the SCE value. <br>
    Is that something more like a weighted round-robin algorithm ? <br>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:086e01cbdd4e$6b8188f0$42849ad0$@packetizer.com"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap=""> * Once the peer's SCE value dropped below a given "low-water mark",
   the peer device would be less favored and not given traffic until
   the SCE value increases above the low-water mark (OPTIONS "ping"
   messages may be used to determine the SCE value in the event that
   there is no other traffic)
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    Why would we wait for a lower mark before to influence the
    distribution ? Also is that less favored, or given no traffic ? <br>
    The later has stability issues.&nbsp; And why do we need ping Options
    when there is no traffic ?<br>
    &nbsp;If there is no traffic (or very little), should we care about
    optimal distribution from this source ? <br>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:086e01cbdd4e$6b8188f0$42849ad0$@packetizer.com"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap=""> * The current SOC overload control mechanism would be used to
   to prevent message overloading, as SCE only focuses on resource
   overloading (e.g., memory, CPU, disk space, DSPs)
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    I don't see this difference here (message overload versus resource
    overload ? ) . To me, SOC focuses on source shedding, while SCE
    seems to focus on improved load distribution, just like our
    proposal. <br>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:086e01cbdd4e$6b8188f0$42849ad0$@packetizer.com"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">
Note that the "round-robin" approach may or may not be preferred and is not
required in our draft.  I've found this approach works pretty well, but one
may prefer to use a particular weighting that is more complex.  I don't
think local decisions in the box need to be subject to standardization: we
just need to standardize the signaling to enable such decisions.
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    I believe the signaling is not enough. The deep meaning of the
    feedback parameter needs to be clarified too. <br>
    For example, in our proposal, the feedback is simply the current
    utilization rate of the node (very simple). <br>
    <br>
    Also the expectation needs to be clarified because it has a very
    important impact on the recommended behavior in case of overload. <br>
    The solution that we propose constantly tries to balance load in the
    cluster of servers. Therefore, in case the SOC shedding kicks in,
    there is NOT NEED to repeat the message elsewhere in the cluster
    because it is balanced already (So no other server has more
    capacity). This is a huge advantage for the network stability as
    message repeat tends to spread the overload and collapse the
    cluster. <br>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:086e01cbdd4e$6b8188f0$42849ad0$@packetizer.com"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">In any case, it certainly looks like we're thinking along the same lines.
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    Yes I agree. <br>
    <br>
    Cordially, <br>
    <br>
    Thierry<br>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:086e01cbdd4e$6b8188f0$42849ad0$@packetizer.com"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">
Paul

</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">-----Original Message-----
From: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dispatch-bounces@ietf.org">dispatch-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dispatch-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dispatch-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On
Behalf Of Vijay K. Gurbani
Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 6:38 PM
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dispatch@ietf.org">dispatch@ietf.org</a>
Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing

Paul: Thank you for your input.  More inline.

On 03/07/2011 05:14 PM, Paul Kyzivat wrote:
</pre>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <pre wrap="">Vijay,
IIUC, the algorithm you have proposed is similar to the one Paul Jones
has proposed - with the main difference being the numeric range of the
weight. Do I have that right?
</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <pre wrap="">
I believe that Paul J.'s algorithm is more suited towards overload
control, not load balancing (and I will await Paul J.'s correction to my
assertion).

The intent in draft-bessis-dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing is to
*always* report the current load to give the upstream SIP proxy an
indication of the health of the SIP server in the cluster.  If one waits
until overload is imminent, then it may be too late since a sudden and
unanticipated burst of messages will put the SIP server in overload
rather quickly.

</pre>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <pre wrap="">It isn't clear to me from your draft if you are specifying the
algorithm by which the relative weights are used to determine the
probability of a request going to one server or another.
</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <pre wrap="">
Yes, same way as RFC2782 does it.

</pre>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <pre wrap="">ISTM that it *does* matter. And it especially matters if there is an
implication that the upstream node's algorithm may depend on some
assumption or knowledge about the downstream nodes.
</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <pre wrap="">
No knowledge, just a reported number that the upstream SIP proxy can
treat as a RFC2782-like weight indicator.  Today, rfc3263-resolution
starts off with the SRV indicators in RFC2782, without any regard to
additional knowledge or assumption about downstream nodes.
dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing is trying to use the same model, except
render the weight to be sensitive to the current traffic in the cluster
in real-time.

</pre>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <pre wrap="">And of course this method of reporting weights isn't sufficient to
drive a balancing algorithm that is sensitive to some requests
requiring more or different resources than others. (That seems to be a
real problem, though I don't know if we have a real solution for
it.)
</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <pre wrap="">
Yes, that is a real problem, as is the problem of a SIP server in a
cluster that has a low weight and is thus not contacted with enough
frequency to merit more participation to the goodput.

It is well known in SIP that some methods are more onerous to process
than others --- from a proxying point of view, processing an INVITE with
forking and response aggregation is far more detrimental to resource
usage than is processing a BYE.  Some existing literature techniques
thus add a coefficient to the weight of sending an INVITE versus a BYE.
At this time, the process outlined in dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing
treats all requests the same, but we can definitely look at ways to
change this behaviour.

Thanks,

- vijay
--
Vijay K. Gurbani, Bell Laboratories, Alcatel-Lucent
1960 Lucent Lane, Rm. 9C-533, Naperville, Illinois 60566 (USA)
Email: vkg@{bell-labs.com,acm.org} / <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:vijay.gurbani@alcatel-lucent.com">vijay.gurbani@alcatel-lucent.com</a>
Web:   <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://ect.bell-labs.com/who/vkg/">http://ect.bell-labs.com/who/vkg/</a>
_______________________________________________
dispatch mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dispatch@ietf.org">dispatch@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch</a>
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">
_______________________________________________
dispatch mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dispatch@ietf.org">dispatch@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
      <meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
        http-equiv="Content-Type">
      <title>Thierry's signature</title>
      <meta content="Thierry Bessis" name="author">
      <big style="font-weight: bold;"><big><big><span
              style="font-family: French Script MT;">-- <br>
              Cordially, <br>
            </span></big></big></big><big style="font-weight: bold;"><big><big><span
              style="font-family: French Script MT;">Thierry Bessis</span></big></big></big>
      <div> </div>
      <div> </div>
      &nbsp;
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">IMS Solution: Architecture
        &amp; Product Management - ALTA Member</span><br
        style="font-family: Arial;">
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">&nbsp; Organization: ALU &gt; Carrier
        group &gt;
        Wireline BU &gt;&nbsp;</span><b> </b>IMS Sol Arch, SE, PdM<br>
      <img style="width: 242px; height: 66px;" alt="Alcatel-Lucent"
        src="cid:part1.07080802.00000908@alcatel-lucent.com"><br>
      &nbsp;
      <span style="font-family: Arial;"></span><span style="font-family:
        Arial;">1960 Lucent Lane - Room 6L-517</span><br
        style="font-family: Arial;">
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">&nbsp; Naperville, IL&nbsp;
        60563&nbsp; U
        S</span><br style="font-family: Arial;">
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">&nbsp; Tel/Fax: +1 630 979 7989</span><br
        style="font-family: Arial;">
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">&nbsp; Corporate IM:
        tbessis&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
        - Yahoo IM:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
        thierry_bessis</span><br>
      <br>
      <small>My WEB page:&nbsp;&nbsp; <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://ihgpweb.ih.lucent.com/~tbessis/">http://ihgpweb.ih.lucent.com/~tbessis/</a><br>
        My Calendar:&nbsp;&nbsp;
        <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=new_frs3175%40yahoo.fr">www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=new_frs3175%40yahoo.fr</a><br>
        ALTA Hot Line: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://alta.all.alcatel-lucent.com/hotline">http://alta.all.alcatel-lucent.com/hotline</a></small><br>
      <br>
      <small>Conference information:<br>
        2801 2801 (US):+1 800 771 8734 - (F):+33 800 941 674 - Access
        Code:
        9797989<br>
        others countries see: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://all.alcatel-lucent.com/audio">http://all.alcatel-lucent.com/audio</a></small><br>
      <br>
      <big style="font-weight: bold;"><big><span style="font-family:
            French Script MT;">Upcoming planned Business Trip:
            12 April - 14 April 2011</span></big></big><br>
      <big style="font-weight: bold;"><big><span style="font-family:
            French Script MT;">Upcoming planned Vacation: None</span></big></big>
    </div>
  </body>
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--------------020402090103080608090109--

--------------000605040804040307080105--

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Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing
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Part,

On 08-Mar-2011 03:52, Parthasarathi R (partr) wrote:
> Vijay,
>
> As Paul K&  Paul J mentioned, I'm looking at your proposal with lot of
> similarity to SCE. One more key stuff, I could not understand the need
> for two separate mechanism for
>
> 1) Load balancing ("weight")
> 2) Overload control ("oc")
See my previous Email:
OC is a request to shed: Whatever you did before is not enough: you need 
to shed now.
Load Balancing is a mean to constantly balance the load, which is an 
optimized way to prevent localized overload (but won't prevent the 
cluster overload of course !).

However, the same transport mechanism can certainly be used and both 
mechanisms should work very well together,
> In case feedback mechanism to the upstream is generic enough, the load
> balancer will be able to balance based on value (capacity) received from
> downstream and reduce the load drastically or stop in case the value is
> too low in terms of capacity.
You may decide shed from the load feedback value, but this complicated 
to setup: we did that before inside our IMS core product, but we decided 
that having a load indication separated from the shedding request is 
much easier and more efficient.
The main issue is to agree about the threshold: which load threshold do 
you use to decide to shed ? and how much to shed based on the load ? 
Some servers will want you to shed before others for the same indicated 
load and/or more (or less) than others.
The rejection rate allows each server to request exactly the source 
shedding that it thinks is needed: this is actually very powerful.
> Even though any overload control algorithm
> is used ("oc" or "weight" or "SCE" or "resource-availability" other),
> the locally overload control mechanism is required in downstream as per
> mentioned in draft-ietf-soc-overload-design.
Right. A difficulty is when a downstream server will have both oc 
compliant clients, and non oc-compliant. Obviously the local OLC needs 
to take into account that, otherwise "non compliant" will get a huge and 
unfair advantage (one stage OLC instead of two).
In our implementation, until we reach a critical level, we do NOT apply 
the local overload to olc compliant nodes (we trust them). we only apply 
it to non compliant.
> I wish that we will look
> into these aspect because overload control is the extreme case for load
> balancing the cluster of downstream entity and load balancing mechanism
> shall help to avoid the overload control based on feedback.
>
> I guess that your mechanism assumes about downstream SIP UA as signaling
> entity only and does not handle media.
Yes this is correct. Although we plan to use the same thing in our MGCF 
which has media too (i.e. the resource feedback will ALSO take into 
account the available media count).

Cordially,

Thierry
> Please correct me in case I
> wrongly understand. draft-partha-dispatch-resource-availability-00 was
> written to handle both resource monitoring and load balancing of SIP
> based media servers wherein load balancing has to take care of overload
> as well.
>
> I'm also interested in discussing SIP load balancing topic during
> IETF-80 meeting.
>
> Thanks
> Partha
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dispatch-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:dispatch-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Paul E. Jones
> Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2011 10:35 AM
> To: 'Vijay K. Gurbani'; dispatch@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing
>
> Vijay,
>
> The Session Capacity Estimate (SCE) idea is actually quite similar to
> the "adaptive load balancing" draft, from what I can see.  SCE was
> proposed as a solution to the "overload" problem, the approach being one
> where we try to avoid overload by selecting a device that reports a
> higher capacity value.
> Thus, one could view it as "overload control through load balancing".
> We didn't explicitly call it load balancing, though, because we were not
> trying to balance load (i.e., place the same load on all servers).
> Rather, we just wanted to direct traffic to devices that we knew had
> available capacity.
>
> In practice, the way SCE would be employed is the following:
> * SIP proxy, B2BUA, etc. (selector) would receive SCE capacity from
>     peer devices
>   * The selector would direct traffic toward the peer devices in a
>     round-robin fashion, taking into consideration the SCE value so
>     as to prevent exhausting resources on any given peer device
>   * Once the peer's SCE value dropped below a given "low-water mark",
>     the peer device would be less favored and not given traffic until
>     the SCE value increases above the low-water mark (OPTIONS "ping"
>     messages may be used to determine the SCE value in the event that
>     there is no other traffic)
>   * The current SOC overload control mechanism would be used to
>     to prevent message overloading, as SCE only focuses on resource
>     overloading (e.g., memory, CPU, disk space, DSPs)
>
> Note that the "round-robin" approach may or may not be preferred and is
> not required in our draft.  I've found this approach works pretty well,
> but one may prefer to use a particular weighting that is more complex.
> I don't think local decisions in the box need to be subject to
> standardization: we just need to standardize the signaling to enable
> such decisions.
>
> In any case, it certainly looks like we're thinking along the same
> lines.
>
> Paul
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: dispatch-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:dispatch-bounces@ietf.org] On
>> Behalf Of Vijay K. Gurbani
>> Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 6:38 PM
>> To: dispatch@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing
>>
>> Paul: Thank you for your input.  More inline.
>>
>> On 03/07/2011 05:14 PM, Paul Kyzivat wrote:
>>> Vijay,
>>> IIUC, the algorithm you have proposed is similar to the one Paul
>>> Jones has proposed - with the main difference being the numeric
>>> range of the weight. Do I have that right?
>> I believe that Paul J.'s algorithm is more suited towards overload
>> control, not load balancing (and I will await Paul J.'s correction to
>> my assertion).
>>
>> The intent in draft-bessis-dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing is to
>> *always* report the current load to give the upstream SIP proxy an
>> indication of the health of the SIP server in the cluster.  If one
>> waits until overload is imminent, then it may be too late since a
>> sudden and unanticipated burst of messages will put the SIP server in
>> overload rather quickly.
>>
>>> It isn't clear to me from your draft if you are specifying the
>>> algorithm by which the relative weights are used to determine the
>>> probability of a request going to one server or another.
>> Yes, same way as RFC2782 does it.
>>
>>> ISTM that it *does* matter. And it especially matters if there is an
>>> implication that the upstream node's algorithm may depend on some
>>> assumption or knowledge about the downstream nodes.
>> No knowledge, just a reported number that the upstream SIP proxy can
>> treat as a RFC2782-like weight indicator.  Today, rfc3263-resolution
>> starts off with the SRV indicators in RFC2782, without any regard to
>> additional knowledge or assumption about downstream nodes.
>> dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing is trying to use the same model,
>> except render the weight to be sensitive to the current traffic in the
>> cluster in real-time.
>>
>>> And of course this method of reporting weights isn't sufficient to
>>> drive a balancing algorithm that is sensitive to some requests
>>> requiring more or different resources than others. (That seems to be
>>> a real problem, though I don't know if we have a real solution for
>>> it.)
>> Yes, that is a real problem, as is the problem of a SIP server in a
>> cluster that has a low weight and is thus not contacted with enough
>> frequency to merit more participation to the goodput.
>>
>> It is well known in SIP that some methods are more onerous to process
>> than others --- from a proxying point of view, processing an INVITE
>> with forking and response aggregation is far more detrimental to
>> resource usage than is processing a BYE.  Some existing literature
>> techniques thus add a coefficient to the weight of sending an INVITE
> versus a BYE.
>> At this time, the process outlined in dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing
>> treats all requests the same, but we can definitely look at ways to
>> change this behaviour.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> - vijay
>> --
>> Vijay K. Gurbani, Bell Laboratories, Alcatel-Lucent 1960 Lucent Lane,
>> Rm. 9C-533, Naperville, Illinois 60566 (USA)
>> Email: vkg@{bell-labs.com,acm.org} / vijay.gurbani@alcatel-lucent.com
>> Web:   http://ect.bell-labs.com/who/vkg/
>> _______________________________________________
>> dispatch mailing list
>> dispatch@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
> _______________________________________________
> dispatch mailing list
> dispatch@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
> _______________________________________________
> dispatch mailing list
> dispatch@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch

-- 
-- 
Cordially,
Thierry Bessis
IMS Solution: Architecture & Product Management - ALTA Member
   Organization: ALU > Carrier group > Wireline BU > **IMS Sol Arch, SE, PdM
Alcatel-Lucent
1960 Lucent Lane - Room 6L-517
   Naperville, IL  60563  U S
   Tel/Fax: +1 630 979 7989
   Corporate IM: tbessis    - Yahoo IM:     thierry_bessis

My WEB page:   http://ihgpweb.ih.lucent.com/~tbessis/
My Calendar:   www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=new_frs3175%40yahoo.fr
ALTA Hot Line: http://alta.all.alcatel-lucent.com/hotline

Conference information:
2801 2801 (US):+1 800 771 8734 - (F):+33 800 941 674 - Access Code: 9797989
others countries see: http://all.alcatel-lucent.com/audio

Upcoming planned Business Trip: 12 April - 14 April 2011
Upcoming planned Vacation: None

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    Part, <br>
    <br>
    On 08-Mar-2011 03:52, Parthasarathi R (partr) wrote:
    <blockquote
cite="mid:A11921905DA1564D9BCF64A6430A623904B1E05A@XMB-BGL-411.cisco.com"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">Vijay,

As Paul K &amp; Paul J mentioned, I'm looking at your proposal with lot of
similarity to SCE. One more key stuff, I could not understand the need
for two separate mechanism for

1) Load balancing ("weight")
2) Overload control ("oc")
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    See my previous Email: <br>
    OC is a request to shed: Whatever you did before is not enough: you
    need to shed now. <br>
    Load Balancing is a mean to constantly balance the load, which is an
    optimized way to prevent localized overload (but won't prevent the
    cluster overload of course !).<br>
    <br>
    However, the same transport mechanism can certainly be used and both
    mechanisms should work very well together,<br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:A11921905DA1564D9BCF64A6430A623904B1E05A@XMB-BGL-411.cisco.com"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">In case feedback mechanism to the upstream is generic enough, the load
balancer will be able to balance based on value (capacity) received from
downstream and reduce the load drastically or stop in case the value is
too low in terms of capacity. </pre>
    </blockquote>
    You may decide shed from the load feedback value, but this
    complicated to setup: we did that before inside our IMS core
    product, but we decided that having a load indication separated from
    the shedding request is much easier and more efficient. <br>
    The main issue is to agree about the threshold: which load threshold
    do you use to decide to shed ? and how much to shed based on the
    load ? Some servers will want you to shed before others for the same
    indicated load and/or more (or less) than others. <br>
    The rejection rate allows each server to request exactly the source
    shedding that it thinks is needed: this is actually very powerful. <br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:A11921905DA1564D9BCF64A6430A623904B1E05A@XMB-BGL-411.cisco.com"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">Even though any overload control algorithm
is used ("oc" or "weight" or "SCE" or "resource-availability" other),
the locally overload control mechanism is required in downstream as per
mentioned in draft-ietf-soc-overload-design. </pre>
    </blockquote>
    Right. A difficulty is when a downstream server will have both oc
    compliant clients, and non oc-compliant. Obviously the local OLC
    needs to take into account that, otherwise "non compliant" will get
    a huge and unfair advantage (one stage OLC instead of two). <br>
    In our implementation, until we reach a critical level, we do NOT
    apply the local overload to olc compliant nodes (we trust them). we
    only apply it to non compliant. <br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:A11921905DA1564D9BCF64A6430A623904B1E05A@XMB-BGL-411.cisco.com"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">I wish that we will look
into these aspect because overload control is the extreme case for load
balancing the cluster of downstream entity and load balancing mechanism
shall help to avoid the overload control based on feedback.

I guess that your mechanism assumes about downstream SIP UA as signaling
entity only and does not handle media. </pre>
    </blockquote>
    Yes this is correct. Although we plan to use the same thing in our
    MGCF which has media too (i.e. the resource feedback will ALSO take
    into account the available media count). <br>
    <br>
    Cordially, <br>
    <br>
    Thierry<br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:A11921905DA1564D9BCF64A6430A623904B1E05A@XMB-BGL-411.cisco.com"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">Please correct me in case I
wrongly understand. draft-partha-dispatch-resource-availability-00 was
written to handle both resource monitoring and load balancing of SIP
based media servers wherein load balancing has to take care of overload
as well.

I'm also interested in discussing SIP load balancing topic during
IETF-80 meeting.

Thanks
Partha

-----Original Message-----
From: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dispatch-bounces@ietf.org">dispatch-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dispatch-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dispatch-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On
Behalf Of Paul E. Jones
Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2011 10:35 AM
To: 'Vijay K. Gurbani'; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dispatch@ietf.org">dispatch@ietf.org</a>
Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing

Vijay,

The Session Capacity Estimate (SCE) idea is actually quite similar to
the "adaptive load balancing" draft, from what I can see.  SCE was
proposed as a solution to the "overload" problem, the approach being one
where we try to avoid overload by selecting a device that reports a
higher capacity value.
Thus, one could view it as "overload control through load balancing".
We didn't explicitly call it load balancing, though, because we were not
trying to balance load (i.e., place the same load on all servers).
Rather, we just wanted to direct traffic to devices that we knew had
available capacity.

In practice, the way SCE would be employed is the following:
* SIP proxy, B2BUA, etc. (selector) would receive SCE capacity from
   peer devices
 * The selector would direct traffic toward the peer devices in a
   round-robin fashion, taking into consideration the SCE value so
   as to prevent exhausting resources on any given peer device
 * Once the peer's SCE value dropped below a given "low-water mark",
   the peer device would be less favored and not given traffic until
   the SCE value increases above the low-water mark (OPTIONS "ping"
   messages may be used to determine the SCE value in the event that
   there is no other traffic)
 * The current SOC overload control mechanism would be used to
   to prevent message overloading, as SCE only focuses on resource
   overloading (e.g., memory, CPU, disk space, DSPs)

Note that the "round-robin" approach may or may not be preferred and is
not required in our draft.  I've found this approach works pretty well,
but one may prefer to use a particular weighting that is more complex.
I don't think local decisions in the box need to be subject to
standardization: we just need to standardize the signaling to enable
such decisions.

In any case, it certainly looks like we're thinking along the same
lines.

Paul

</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">-----Original Message-----
From: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dispatch-bounces@ietf.org">dispatch-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:dispatch-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dispatch-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On 
Behalf Of Vijay K. Gurbani
Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 6:38 PM
To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dispatch@ietf.org">dispatch@ietf.org</a>
Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing

Paul: Thank you for your input.  More inline.

On 03/07/2011 05:14 PM, Paul Kyzivat wrote:
</pre>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <pre wrap="">Vijay,
IIUC, the algorithm you have proposed is similar to the one Paul 
Jones has proposed - with the main difference being the numeric 
range of the weight. Do I have that right?
</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <pre wrap="">
I believe that Paul J.'s algorithm is more suited towards overload 
control, not load balancing (and I will await Paul J.'s correction to 
my assertion).

The intent in draft-bessis-dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing is to
*always* report the current load to give the upstream SIP proxy an 
indication of the health of the SIP server in the cluster.  If one 
waits until overload is imminent, then it may be too late since a 
sudden and unanticipated burst of messages will put the SIP server in 
overload rather quickly.

</pre>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <pre wrap="">It isn't clear to me from your draft if you are specifying the 
algorithm by which the relative weights are used to determine the 
probability of a request going to one server or another.
</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <pre wrap="">
Yes, same way as RFC2782 does it.

</pre>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <pre wrap="">ISTM that it *does* matter. And it especially matters if there is an
</pre>
        </blockquote>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">
</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <pre wrap="">implication that the upstream node's algorithm may depend on some 
assumption or knowledge about the downstream nodes.
</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <pre wrap="">
No knowledge, just a reported number that the upstream SIP proxy can 
treat as a RFC2782-like weight indicator.  Today, rfc3263-resolution 
starts off with the SRV indicators in RFC2782, without any regard to 
additional knowledge or assumption about downstream nodes.
dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing is trying to use the same model, 
except render the weight to be sensitive to the current traffic in the
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">
</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">cluster in real-time.

</pre>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <pre wrap="">And of course this method of reporting weights isn't sufficient to 
drive a balancing algorithm that is sensitive to some requests 
requiring more or different resources than others. (That seems to be
</pre>
        </blockquote>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">
</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <pre wrap="">a real problem, though I don't know if we have a real solution for
it.)
</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <pre wrap="">
Yes, that is a real problem, as is the problem of a SIP server in a 
cluster that has a low weight and is thus not contacted with enough 
frequency to merit more participation to the goodput.

It is well known in SIP that some methods are more onerous to process 
than others --- from a proxying point of view, processing an INVITE 
with forking and response aggregation is far more detrimental to 
resource usage than is processing a BYE.  Some existing literature 
techniques thus add a coefficient to the weight of sending an INVITE
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">versus a BYE.
</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">At this time, the process outlined in dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">
</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">treats all requests the same, but we can definitely look at ways to 
change this behaviour.

Thanks,

- vijay
--
Vijay K. Gurbani, Bell Laboratories, Alcatel-Lucent 1960 Lucent Lane, 
Rm. 9C-533, Naperville, Illinois 60566 (USA)
Email: vkg@{bell-labs.com,acm.org} / <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:vijay.gurbani@alcatel-lucent.com">vijay.gurbani@alcatel-lucent.com</a>
Web:   <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://ect.bell-labs.com/who/vkg/">http://ect.bell-labs.com/who/vkg/</a>
_______________________________________________
dispatch mailing list
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<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch</a>
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">
_______________________________________________
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</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
      <meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
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      <title>Thierry's signature</title>
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      <big style="font-weight: bold;"><big><big><span
              style="font-family: French Script MT;">-- <br>
              Cordially, <br>
            </span></big></big></big><big style="font-weight: bold;"><big><big><span
              style="font-family: French Script MT;">Thierry Bessis</span></big></big></big>
      <div> </div>
      <div> </div>
      &nbsp;
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">IMS Solution: Architecture
        &amp; Product Management - ALTA Member</span><br
        style="font-family: Arial;">
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">&nbsp; Organization: ALU &gt; Carrier
        group &gt;
        Wireline BU &gt;&nbsp;</span><b> </b>IMS Sol Arch, SE, PdM<br>
      <img style="width: 242px; height: 66px;" alt="Alcatel-Lucent"
        src="cid:part1.04090109.01090304@alcatel-lucent.com"><br>
      &nbsp;
      <span style="font-family: Arial;"></span><span style="font-family:
        Arial;">1960 Lucent Lane - Room 6L-517</span><br
        style="font-family: Arial;">
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">&nbsp; Naperville, IL&nbsp;
        60563&nbsp; U
        S</span><br style="font-family: Arial;">
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">&nbsp; Tel/Fax: +1 630 979 7989</span><br
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        <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=new_frs3175%40yahoo.fr">www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=new_frs3175%40yahoo.fr</a><br>
        ALTA Hot Line: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://alta.all.alcatel-lucent.com/hotline">http://alta.all.alcatel-lucent.com/hotline</a></small><br>
      <br>
      <small>Conference information:<br>
        2801 2801 (US):+1 800 771 8734 - (F):+33 800 941 674 - Access
        Code:
        9797989<br>
        others countries see: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://all.alcatel-lucent.com/audio">http://all.alcatel-lucent.com/audio</a></small><br>
      <br>
      <big style="font-weight: bold;"><big><span style="font-family:
            French Script MT;">Upcoming planned Business Trip:
            12 April - 14 April 2011</span></big></big><br>
      <big style="font-weight: bold;"><big><span style="font-family:
            French Script MT;">Upcoming planned Vacation: None</span></big></big>
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Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2011 12:37:22 -0600
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Paul,

On 08-Mar-2011 07:49, Paul Kyzivat wrote:
> Vijay,
>
> Thanks for clarifications. Now I think I understand what you are 
> proposing. It is certainly simple, and better than nothing.
I think it is much better than nothing  ! :-)
It is true that some transactions use much more resources than others, 
but this does not damage the load balancing:
If one server is unlucky enough to get much more "loaded transactions" 
than others, it will quickly report a higher resource usage and will 
consequently receive less requests than others: despite the fact that 
one server get more of such transactions, the cluster will still be 
evenly loaded.

>
> It *does* require that all the members of the load balancing set 
> assign their own weights in a consistent way. This of course is no 
> different than when the weights are assigned in DNS, except that its 
> likely to be one person who puts all the weights into DNS, while the 
> weights coming from the servers can be influenced by who implemented 
> them. If they aren't all implemented consistently it can be a problem.
This is true, but the mechanism is still robust. In practice, the most 
important is that all use the same range. But the system is robust to 
things like linearity issues: as long as the feedback reported load 
curve is a monotonic function of the actual load, it works.

Cordially,

Thierry
>
> But this is a second order problem, and is probably unavoidable. 
> (AFAIK every scheme for this space has a similar constraint.) It might 
> need to be the subject of additional standardization/profiling, though 
> it might not be ietf work.
>
>     Thanks,
>     Paul
>
> On 3/7/2011 6:37 PM, Vijay K. Gurbani wrote:
>> Paul: Thank you for your input. More inline.
>>
>> On 03/07/2011 05:14 PM, Paul Kyzivat wrote:
>>> Vijay,
>>> IIUC, the algorithm you have proposed is similar to the one Paul
>>> Jones has proposed - with the main difference being the numeric range
>>> of the weight. Do I have that right?
>>
>> I believe that Paul J.'s algorithm is more suited towards overload
>> control, not load balancing (and I will await Paul J.'s correction to
>> my assertion).
>>
>> The intent in draft-bessis-dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing is to
>> *always* report the current load to give the upstream SIP proxy
>> an indication of the health of the SIP server in the cluster. If one
>> waits until overload is imminent, then it may be too late since a sudden
>> and unanticipated burst of messages will put the SIP server in
>> overload rather quickly.
>>
>>> It isn't clear to me from your draft if you are specifying the
>>> algorithm by which the relative weights are used to determine the
>>> probability of a request going to one server or another.
>>
>> Yes, same way as RFC2782 does it.
>>
>>> ISTM that it *does* matter. And it especially matters if there is an
>>> implication that the upstream node's algorithm may depend on some
>>> assumption or knowledge about the downstream nodes.
>>
>> No knowledge, just a reported number that the upstream SIP proxy can
>> treat as a RFC2782-like weight indicator. Today, rfc3263-resolution
>> starts off with the SRV indicators in RFC2782, without any regard
>> to additional knowledge or assumption about downstream nodes.
>> dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing is trying to use the same model,
>> except render the weight to be sensitive to the current traffic
>> in the cluster in real-time.
>>
>>> And of course this method of reporting weights isn't sufficient to
>>> drive a balancing algorithm that is sensitive to some requests
>>> requiring more or different resources than others. (That seems to be
>>> a real problem, though I don't know if we have a real solution for
>>> it.)
>>
>> Yes, that is a real problem, as is the problem of a SIP server in a
>> cluster that has a low weight and is thus not contacted with enough
>> frequency to merit more participation to the goodput.
>>
>> It is well known in SIP that some methods are more onerous to process
>> than others --- from a proxying point of view, processing an INVITE
>> with forking and response aggregation is far more detrimental to
>> resource usage than is processing a BYE. Some existing literature
>> techniques thus add a coefficient to the weight of sending an INVITE
>> versus a BYE. At this time, the process outlined in
>> dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing treats all requests the same, but we
>> can definitely
>> look at ways to change this behaviour.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> - vijay
> _______________________________________________
> dispatch mailing list
> dispatch@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch

-- 
-- 
Cordially,
Thierry Bessis
IMS Solution: Architecture & Product Management - ALTA Member
   Organization: ALU > Carrier group > Wireline BU > **IMS Sol Arch, SE, PdM
Alcatel-Lucent
1960 Lucent Lane - Room 6L-517
   Naperville, IL  60563  U S
   Tel/Fax: +1 630 979 7989
   Corporate IM: tbessis    - Yahoo IM:     thierry_bessis

My WEB page:   http://ihgpweb.ih.lucent.com/~tbessis/
My Calendar:   www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=new_frs3175%40yahoo.fr
ALTA Hot Line: http://alta.all.alcatel-lucent.com/hotline

Conference information:
2801 2801 (US):+1 800 771 8734 - (F):+33 800 941 674 - Access Code: 9797989
others countries see: http://all.alcatel-lucent.com/audio

Upcoming planned Business Trip: 12 April - 14 April 2011
Upcoming planned Vacation: None

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    <meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
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    Paul, <br>
    <br>
    On 08-Mar-2011 07:49, Paul Kyzivat wrote:
    <blockquote cite="mid:4D7633F9.7000608@cisco.com" type="cite">Vijay,
      <br>
      <br>
      Thanks for clarifications. Now I think I understand what you are
      proposing. It is certainly simple, and better than nothing.
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    I think it is much better than nothing&nbsp; ! <span
      class="moz-smiley-s1"><span> :-) </span></span><br>
    It is true that some transactions use much more resources than
    others, but this does not damage the load balancing: <br>
    If one server is unlucky enough to get much more "loaded
    transactions" than others, it will quickly report a higher resource
    usage and will consequently receive less requests than others:
    despite the fact that one server get more of such transactions, the
    cluster will still be evenly loaded. <br>
    <br>
    <blockquote cite="mid:4D7633F9.7000608@cisco.com" type="cite">
      <br>
      It *does* require that all the members of the load balancing set
      assign their own weights in a consistent way. This of course is no
      different than when the weights are assigned in DNS, except that
      its likely to be one person who puts all the weights into DNS,
      while the weights coming from the servers can be influenced by who
      implemented them. If they aren't all implemented consistently it
      can be a problem.
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    This is true, but the mechanism is still robust. In practice, the
    most important is that all use the same range. But the system is
    robust to things like linearity issues: as long as the feedback
    reported load curve is a monotonic function of the actual load, it
    works. <br>
    <br>
    Cordially, <br>
    <br>
    Thierry<br>
    <blockquote cite="mid:4D7633F9.7000608@cisco.com" type="cite">
      <br>
      But this is a second order problem, and is probably unavoidable.
      (AFAIK every scheme for this space has a similar constraint.) It
      might need to be the subject of additional
      standardization/profiling, though it might not be ietf work.
      <br>
      <br>
      &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Thanks,
      <br>
      &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Paul
      <br>
      <br>
      On 3/7/2011 6:37 PM, Vijay K. Gurbani wrote:
      <br>
      <blockquote type="cite">Paul: Thank you for your input. More
        inline.
        <br>
        <br>
        On 03/07/2011 05:14 PM, Paul Kyzivat wrote:
        <br>
        <blockquote type="cite">Vijay,
          <br>
          IIUC, the algorithm you have proposed is similar to the one
          Paul
          <br>
          Jones has proposed - with the main difference being the
          numeric range
          <br>
          of the weight. Do I have that right?
          <br>
        </blockquote>
        <br>
        I believe that Paul J.'s algorithm is more suited towards
        overload
        <br>
        control, not load balancing (and I will await Paul J.'s
        correction to
        <br>
        my assertion).
        <br>
        <br>
        The intent in draft-bessis-dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing is
        to
        <br>
        *always* report the current load to give the upstream SIP proxy
        <br>
        an indication of the health of the SIP server in the cluster. If
        one
        <br>
        waits until overload is imminent, then it may be too late since
        a sudden
        <br>
        and unanticipated burst of messages will put the SIP server in
        <br>
        overload rather quickly.
        <br>
        <br>
        <blockquote type="cite">It isn't clear to me from your draft if
          you are specifying the
          <br>
          algorithm by which the relative weights are used to determine
          the
          <br>
          probability of a request going to one server or another.
          <br>
        </blockquote>
        <br>
        Yes, same way as RFC2782 does it.
        <br>
        <br>
        <blockquote type="cite">ISTM that it *does* matter. And it
          especially matters if there is an
          <br>
          implication that the upstream node's algorithm may depend on
          some
          <br>
          assumption or knowledge about the downstream nodes.
          <br>
        </blockquote>
        <br>
        No knowledge, just a reported number that the upstream SIP proxy
        can
        <br>
        treat as a RFC2782-like weight indicator. Today,
        rfc3263-resolution
        <br>
        starts off with the SRV indicators in RFC2782, without any
        regard
        <br>
        to additional knowledge or assumption about downstream nodes.
        <br>
        dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing is trying to use the same
        model,
        <br>
        except render the weight to be sensitive to the current traffic
        <br>
        in the cluster in real-time.
        <br>
        <br>
        <blockquote type="cite">And of course this method of reporting
          weights isn't sufficient to
          <br>
          drive a balancing algorithm that is sensitive to some requests
          <br>
          requiring more or different resources than others. (That seems
          to be
          <br>
          a real problem, though I don't know if we have a real solution
          for
          <br>
          it.)
          <br>
        </blockquote>
        <br>
        Yes, that is a real problem, as is the problem of a SIP server
        in a
        <br>
        cluster that has a low weight and is thus not contacted with
        enough
        <br>
        frequency to merit more participation to the goodput.
        <br>
        <br>
        It is well known in SIP that some methods are more onerous to
        process
        <br>
        than others --- from a proxying point of view, processing an
        INVITE
        <br>
        with forking and response aggregation is far more detrimental to
        <br>
        resource usage than is processing a BYE. Some existing
        literature
        <br>
        techniques thus add a coefficient to the weight of sending an
        INVITE
        <br>
        versus a BYE. At this time, the process outlined in
        <br>
        dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing treats all requests the same,
        but we
        <br>
        can definitely
        <br>
        look at ways to change this behaviour.
        <br>
        <br>
        Thanks,
        <br>
        <br>
        - vijay
        <br>
      </blockquote>
      _______________________________________________
      <br>
      dispatch mailing list
      <br>
      <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dispatch@ietf.org">dispatch@ietf.org</a>
      <br>
      <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch</a>
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
      <meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
        http-equiv="Content-Type">
      <title>Thierry's signature</title>
      <meta content="Thierry Bessis" name="author">
      <big style="font-weight: bold;"><big><big><span
              style="font-family: French Script MT;">-- <br>
              Cordially, <br>
            </span></big></big></big><big style="font-weight: bold;"><big><big><span
              style="font-family: French Script MT;">Thierry Bessis</span></big></big></big>
      <div> </div>
      <div> </div>
      &nbsp;
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">IMS Solution: Architecture
        &amp; Product Management - ALTA Member</span><br
        style="font-family: Arial;">
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">&nbsp; Organization: ALU &gt; Carrier
        group &gt;
        Wireline BU &gt;&nbsp;</span><b> </b>IMS Sol Arch, SE, PdM<br>
      <img style="width: 242px; height: 66px;" alt="Alcatel-Lucent"
        src="cid:part1.04000707.00060003@alcatel-lucent.com"><br>
      &nbsp;
      <span style="font-family: Arial;"></span><span style="font-family:
        Arial;">1960 Lucent Lane - Room 6L-517</span><br
        style="font-family: Arial;">
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">&nbsp; Naperville, IL&nbsp;
        60563&nbsp; U
        S</span><br style="font-family: Arial;">
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">&nbsp; Tel/Fax: +1 630 979 7989</span><br
        style="font-family: Arial;">
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">&nbsp; Corporate IM:
        tbessis&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
        - Yahoo IM:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
        thierry_bessis</span><br>
      <br>
      <small>My WEB page:&nbsp;&nbsp; <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://ihgpweb.ih.lucent.com/~tbessis/">http://ihgpweb.ih.lucent.com/~tbessis/</a><br>
        My Calendar:&nbsp;&nbsp;
        <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=new_frs3175%40yahoo.fr">www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=new_frs3175%40yahoo.fr</a><br>
        ALTA Hot Line: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://alta.all.alcatel-lucent.com/hotline">http://alta.all.alcatel-lucent.com/hotline</a></small><br>
      <br>
      <small>Conference information:<br>
        2801 2801 (US):+1 800 771 8734 - (F):+33 800 941 674 - Access
        Code:
        9797989<br>
        others countries see: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://all.alcatel-lucent.com/audio">http://all.alcatel-lucent.com/audio</a></small><br>
      <br>
      <big style="font-weight: bold;"><big><span style="font-family:
            French Script MT;">Upcoming planned Business Trip:
            12 April - 14 April 2011</span></big></big><br>
      <big style="font-weight: bold;"><big><span style="font-family:
            French Script MT;">Upcoming planned Vacation: None</span></big></big>
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From vkg@bell-labs.com  Tue Mar  8 12:02:14 2011
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On 03/08/2011 07:49 AM, Paul Kyzivat wrote:
> Vijay,
>
> Thanks for clarifications. Now I think I understand what you are
> proposing.  It is certainly simple, and better than nothing.

Paul: Thanks for taking the time to tease out the larger picture.

More inline.

> It *does* require that all the members of the load balancing set
> assign their own weights in a consistent way. This of course is no
> different than when the weights are assigned in DNS, except that its
> likely to be one person who puts all the weights into DNS, while the
> weights coming from the servers can be influenced by who implemented
> them. If they aren't all implemented consistently it can be a
> problem.

While I do not claim that the "weight" scheme is perfect, I think the
bounds for ambiguity are much less with this approach.  All the
upstream SIP proxy needs is a "weight" indicator that it will
use in a RFC2782-type algorithm to proportionally send as much traffic
to a downstream SIP server as it has indicated (i.e., higher "weight"
values will get proportionally more traffic).  This is much better
than round-robin, and furthermore, there is no requirement that each
downstream SIP server in the cluster set its "weight" in a manner
consistent with other servers, or even that the "weight" values of two
SIP servers be comparable.

I have also been thinking about the email exchange we had yesterday.
You had mentioned that:

   > And of course this method of reporting weights isn't sufficient to
   > drive a balancing algorithm that is sensitive to some requests
   > requiring more or different resources than others. (That seems to be
   > a real problem, though I don't know if we have a real solution for
   > it.)

I am starting to believe that this property --- being sensitive to
the processing requirements of some requests versus others --- is
more pertinent to overload control than it is to load balancing.
The "weight" approach normalizes the processing load at a SIP server
in the cluster and reports a canonical value regardless of the specific
*type* of request the SIP server can handle.  If the SIP server is
handling a lot of resource-heavy INVITE transactions, then it will
report a lower "weight" value.

Thanks,

- vijay
-- 
Vijay K. Gurbani, Bell Laboratories, Alcatel-Lucent
1960 Lucent Lane, Rm. 9C-533, Naperville, Illinois 60566 (USA)
Email: vkg@{bell-labs.com,acm.org} / vijay.gurbani@alcatel-lucent.com
Web:   http://ect.bell-labs.com/who/vkg/

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Thierry,

 

Please see my comments below in green:

 

 

From: Thierry Bessis [mailto:Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2011 12:35 PM
To: Paul E. Jones
Cc: 'Vijay K. Gurbani'; dispatch@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing

 

Paul, 

Please let me address some of your comments. 
I don't know what the SCE is, so please pardon me if I misunderstand
something. 

On 07-Mar-2011 23:05, Paul E. Jones wrote: 

Vijay,
 
The Session Capacity Estimate (SCE) idea is actually quite similar to the
"adaptive load balancing" draft, from what I can see.  SCE was proposed as a
solution to the "overload" problem, the approach being one where we try to
avoid overload by selecting a device that reports a higher capacity value.
Thus, one could view it as "overload control through load balancing".  We
didn't explicitly call it load balancing, though, because we were not trying
to balance load (i.e., place the same load on all servers).  Rather, we just
wanted to direct traffic to devices that we knew had available capacity.

Agreed, the goal seems to be the same: avoiding or at least delaying
overload. 
And your other comment too: our proposal does try to balance the load on all
the servers. The rational is that it is very easy for each server to know
where it is in terms of resource usage (for instance: I'm 60 percent
resource loaded at this moment), and this is just the information you need
to balance the traffic. Now it seems (but it is not clear, see below)  that
the SCE "available capacity" is actually a real time feedback, so the
information would be very similar actually. (What's the difference ? )

 

PEJ: I think it is very similar.  SCE provides real-time feedback of the
available resource capacity of a peer device.  The intent is to convey a
single integer value that represents an estimate of the number of sessions
the peer device can handle.  Note, this is not "message per second" or
other, but the number of sessions.  The focus on SCE is on devices like
"call agents", "session border controllers", stateful SIP proxies, etc. 



 
In practice, the way SCE would be employed is the following:
* SIP proxy, B2BUA, etc. (selector) would receive SCE capacity from
   peer devices
 * The selector would direct traffic toward the peer devices in a
   round-robin fashion, taking into consideration the SCE value so
   as to prevent exhausting resources on any given peer device

I see a contradiction here: if it is round-robin, it does not take into
account the SCE value. 
Is that something more like a weighted round-robin algorithm ? 

 

PEJ: As I mention below, the algorithm used to select a peer device is not a
part of the SCE draft.  One can use any mechanism.  The SCE draft merely
advertises a session capacity estimate.  We've found round-robin to be a
simple approach that works, as it distributes load relatively uniformly, but
stops directing traffic toward devices that report an SCE value that is
below a specified threshold. Other input could be considered, but we
deliberately left the algorithm outside the scope of SCE.



 * Once the peer's SCE value dropped below a given "low-water mark",
   the peer device would be less favored and not given traffic until
   the SCE value increases above the low-water mark (OPTIONS "ping"
   messages may be used to determine the SCE value in the event that
   there is no other traffic)

Why would we wait for a lower mark before to influence the distribution ?
Also is that less favored, or given no traffic ? 

 

PEJ: With our use of SCE, we're not trying to "balance" the load, per se.
One certainly could do that, but in order to balance the load on peer
devices when they are out of balance, one must direct multiple new sessions
toward the same device.  That is not always desirable since new sessions
usually consume more resources temporarily than established sessions.  So,
we try to burden a peer device by throwing a number of new sessions toward
the peer by distributing them in a round-robin fashion.  Again, though, the
approach taken is outside the scope of the SCE draft.

 


The later has stability issues.  And why do we need ping Options when there
is no traffic ?
 If there is no traffic (or very little), should we care about optimal
distribution from this source ?

 

PEJ: The assumption is that a peer device might also have several peers.
So, while device A1 may not be directing traffic toward device B, perhaps
A2, A3, and A4 are.  We can use OPTIONS "ping" messages to get current SCE
information.





 * The current SOC overload control mechanism would be used to
   to prevent message overloading, as SCE only focuses on resource
   overloading (e.g., memory, CPU, disk space, DSPs)

I don't see this difference here (message overload versus resource overload
? ) . To me, SOC focuses on source shedding, while SCE seems to focus on
improved load distribution, just like our proposal.

 

PEJ: A peer device might be able to handle 18,000 new sessions, but perhaps
it can only handle them at a rate of 100 per second.  We would use SCE to
determine that a peer can handle new sessions, while we would use the
methods SOC is defining to prevent message overload so we do not send 200
INVITEs per second to the peer.  (Use of the SOC mechanism might prove to
work better than our current round-robin approach, but we've not tested it.)




 
Note that the "round-robin" approach may or may not be preferred and is not
required in our draft.  I've found this approach works pretty well, but one
may prefer to use a particular weighting that is more complex.  I don't
think local decisions in the box need to be subject to standardization: we
just need to standardize the signaling to enable such decisions.

I believe the signaling is not enough. The deep meaning of the feedback
parameter needs to be clarified too. 
For example, in our proposal, the feedback is simply the current utilization
rate of the node (very simple).

 

PEJ: That sounds similar to SCE.  An SCE-capable device advertises to its
peer how many new sessions it can handle given the number of sessions it is
currently handling. 

Also the expectation needs to be clarified because it has a very important
impact on the recommended behavior in case of overload. 
The solution that we propose constantly tries to balance load in the cluster
of servers. Therefore, in case the SOC shedding kicks in, there is NOT NEED
to repeat the message elsewhere in the cluster because it is balanced
already (So no other server has more capacity). This is a huge advantage for
the network stability as message repeat tends to spread the overload and
collapse the cluster. 



In any case, it certainly looks like we're thinking along the same lines.

Yes I agree. 



PEJ: If you haven't already, have a look at our draft:

 <http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jones-sip-overload-sce-00>
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jones-sip-overload-sce-00

 

It is now expired, but your draft suggests there is still life in this
approach.  We should look to harmonize them, perhaps.

 

Paul

 


Cordially, 

Thierry



 
Paul
 

-----Original Message-----
From: dispatch-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:dispatch-bounces@ietf.org] On
Behalf Of Vijay K. Gurbani
Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 6:38 PM
To: dispatch@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing
 
Paul: Thank you for your input.  More inline.
 
On 03/07/2011 05:14 PM, Paul Kyzivat wrote:

Vijay,
IIUC, the algorithm you have proposed is similar to the one Paul Jones
has proposed - with the main difference being the numeric range of the
weight. Do I have that right?

 
I believe that Paul J.'s algorithm is more suited towards overload
control, not load balancing (and I will await Paul J.'s correction to my
assertion).
 
The intent in draft-bessis-dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing is to
*always* report the current load to give the upstream SIP proxy an
indication of the health of the SIP server in the cluster.  If one waits
until overload is imminent, then it may be too late since a sudden and
unanticipated burst of messages will put the SIP server in overload
rather quickly.
 

It isn't clear to me from your draft if you are specifying the
algorithm by which the relative weights are used to determine the
probability of a request going to one server or another.

 
Yes, same way as RFC2782 does it.
 

ISTM that it *does* matter. And it especially matters if there is an
implication that the upstream node's algorithm may depend on some
assumption or knowledge about the downstream nodes.

 
No knowledge, just a reported number that the upstream SIP proxy can
treat as a RFC2782-like weight indicator.  Today, rfc3263-resolution
starts off with the SRV indicators in RFC2782, without any regard to
additional knowledge or assumption about downstream nodes.
dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing is trying to use the same model, except
render the weight to be sensitive to the current traffic in the cluster
in real-time.
 

And of course this method of reporting weights isn't sufficient to
drive a balancing algorithm that is sensitive to some requests
requiring more or different resources than others. (That seems to be a
real problem, though I don't know if we have a real solution for
it.)

 
Yes, that is a real problem, as is the problem of a SIP server in a
cluster that has a low weight and is thus not contacted with enough
frequency to merit more participation to the goodput.
 
It is well known in SIP that some methods are more onerous to process
than others --- from a proxying point of view, processing an INVITE with
forking and response aggregation is far more detrimental to resource
usage than is processing a BYE.  Some existing literature techniques
thus add a coefficient to the weight of sending an INVITE versus a BYE.
At this time, the process outlined in dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing
treats all requests the same, but we can definitely look at ways to
change this behaviour.
 
Thanks,
 
- vijay
--
Vijay K. Gurbani, Bell Laboratories, Alcatel-Lucent
1960 Lucent Lane, Rm. 9C-533, Naperville, Illinois 60566 (USA)
Email: vkg@{bell-labs.com,acm.org} <mailto:vkg@%7bbell-labs.com,acm.org%7d>
/ vijay.gurbani@alcatel-lucent.com
Web:   http://ect.bell-labs.com/who/vkg/
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-- 
-- 
Cordially, 
Thierry Bessis 

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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body bgcolor=3Dwhite =
lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Thierry,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Please see my comments below in </span><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#00B05=
0'>green</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowt=
ext'>From:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowt=
ext'> Thierry Bessis [mailto:Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com] =
<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, March 08, 2011 12:35 PM<br><b>To:</b> Paul E. =
Jones<br><b>Cc:</b> 'Vijay K. Gurbani'; =
dispatch@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [dispatch] SIP load =
balancing<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Paul, =
<br><br>Please let me address some of your comments. <br>I don't know =
what the SCE is, so please pardon me if I misunderstand something. =
<br><br>On 07-Mar-2011 23:05, Paul E. Jones wrote: =
<o:p></o:p></p><pre>Vijay,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><p=
re>The Session Capacity Estimate (SCE) idea is actually quite similar to =
the<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>&quot;adaptive load balancing&quot; draft, from =
what I can see.&nbsp; SCE was proposed as =
a<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>solution to the &quot;overload&quot; problem, the =
approach being one where we try to<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>avoid overload =
by selecting a device that reports a higher capacity =
value.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Thus, one could view it as &quot;overload =
control through load balancing&quot;.&nbsp; =
We<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>didn't explicitly call it load balancing, =
though, because we were not trying<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>to balance load =
(i.e., place the same load on all servers). &nbsp;Rather, we =
just<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>wanted to direct traffic to devices that we =
knew had available capacity.<o:p></o:p></pre><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Agreed, the goal seems to be the same: avoiding or at =
least delaying overload. <br>And your other comment too: our proposal =
does try to balance the load on all the servers. The rational is that it =
is very easy for each server to know where it is in terms of resource =
usage (for instance: I'm 60 percent resource loaded at this moment), and =
this is just the information you need to balance the traffic. Now it =
seems (but it is not clear, see below)&nbsp; that the SCE =
&quot;available capacity&quot; is actually a real time feedback, so the =
information would be very similar actually. (What's the difference ? =
)<span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#00B05=
0'>PEJ: I think it is very similar.&nbsp; SCE provides real-time =
feedback of the available resource capacity of a peer device.&nbsp; The =
intent is to convey a single integer value that represents an estimate =
of the number of sessions the peer device can handle.&nbsp; Note, this =
is not &#8220;message per second&#8221; or other, but the number of =
sessions.&nbsp; The focus on SCE is on devices like &#8220;call =
agents&#8221;, &#8220;session border controllers&#8221;, stateful SIP =
proxies, etc.</span> =
<br><br><o:p></o:p></p><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>In practice, the =
way SCE would be employed is the following:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>* SIP =
proxy, B2BUA, etc. (selector) would receive SCE capacity =
from<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; peer =
devices<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> * The selector would direct traffic toward =
the peer devices in a<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; round-robin =
fashion, taking into consideration the SCE value =
so<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; as to prevent exhausting resources =
on any given peer device<o:p></o:p></pre><p class=3DMsoNormal>I see a =
contradiction here: if it is round-robin, it does not take into account =
the SCE value. <br>Is that something more like a weighted round-robin =
algorithm ? <span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#00B05=
0'>PEJ: As I mention below, the algorithm used to select a peer device =
is not a part of the SCE draft.&nbsp; One can use any mechanism.&nbsp; =
The SCE draft merely advertises a session capacity estimate.&nbsp; =
We&#8217;ve found round-robin to be a simple approach that works, as it =
distributes load relatively uniformly, but stops directing traffic =
toward devices that report an SCE value that is below a specified =
threshold. Other input could be considered, but we deliberately left the =
algorithm outside the scope of SCE.</span><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><pre> * =
Once the peer's SCE value dropped below a given &quot;low-water =
mark&quot;,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; the peer device would be =
less favored and not given traffic =
until<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; the SCE value increases above =
the low-water mark (OPTIONS =
&quot;ping&quot;<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; messages may be used =
to determine the SCE value in the event =
that<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; there is no other =
traffic)<o:p></o:p></pre><p class=3DMsoNormal>Why would we wait for a =
lower mark before to influence the distribution ? Also is that less =
favored, or given no traffic ? <span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#00B05=
0'>PEJ: With our use of SCE, we&#8217;re not trying to =
&#8220;balance&#8221; the load, per se.&nbsp; One certainly could do =
that, but in order to balance the load on peer devices when they are out =
of balance, one must direct multiple new sessions toward the same =
device.&nbsp; That is not always desirable since new sessions usually =
consume more resources temporarily than established sessions.&nbsp; So, =
we try to burden a peer device by throwing a number of new sessions =
toward the peer by distributing them in a round-robin fashion.&nbsp; =
Again, though, the approach taken is outside the scope of the SCE =
draft.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><br>The later has =
stability issues.&nbsp; And why do we need ping Options when there is no =
traffic ?<br>&nbsp;If there is no traffic (or very little), should we =
care about optimal distribution from this source ?<span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#00B05=
0'>PEJ: The assumption is that a peer device might also have several =
peers.&nbsp; So, while device A1 may not be directing traffic toward =
device B, perhaps A2, A3, and A4 are.&nbsp; We can use OPTIONS =
&#8220;ping&#8221; messages to get current SCE =
information.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal> =
<br><br><o:p></o:p></p><pre>&nbsp;* The current SOC overload control =
mechanism would be used to<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; to prevent =
message overloading, as SCE only focuses on =
resource<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; overloading (e.g., memory, =
CPU, disk space, DSPs)<o:p></o:p></pre><p class=3DMsoNormal>I don't see =
this difference here (message overload versus resource overload ? ) . To =
me, SOC focuses on source shedding, while SCE seems to focus on improved =
load distribution, just like our proposal.<span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#00B05=
0'>PEJ: A peer device might be able to handle 18,000 new sessions, but =
perhaps it can only handle them at a rate of 100 per second.&nbsp; We =
would use SCE to determine that a peer can handle new sessions, while we =
would use the methods SOC is defining to prevent message overload so we =
do not send 200 INVITEs per second to the peer.&nbsp; (Use of the SOC =
mechanism might prove to work better than our current round-robin =
approach, but we&#8217;ve not tested it.)</span><span =
style=3D'color:#00B050'> =
</span><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>Note that =
the &quot;round-robin&quot; approach may or may not be preferred and is =
not<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>required in our draft.&nbsp; I've found this =
approach works pretty well, but one<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>may prefer to =
use a particular weighting that is more complex.&nbsp; I =
don't<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>think local decisions in the box need to be =
subject to standardization: we<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>just need to =
standardize the signaling to enable such decisions.<o:p></o:p></pre><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>I believe the signaling is not enough. The deep =
meaning of the feedback parameter needs to be clarified too. <br>For =
example, in our proposal, the feedback is simply the current utilization =
rate of the node (very simple).<span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#00B05=
0'>PEJ: That sounds similar to SCE.&nbsp; An SCE-capable device =
advertises to its peer how many new sessions it can handle given the =
number of sessions it is currently handling.</span> <br><br>Also the =
expectation needs to be clarified because it has a very important impact =
on the recommended behavior in case of overload. <br>The solution that =
we propose constantly tries to balance load in the cluster of servers. =
Therefore, in case the SOC shedding kicks in, there is NOT NEED to =
repeat the message elsewhere in the cluster because it is balanced =
already (So no other server has more capacity). This is a huge advantage =
for the network stability as message repeat tends to spread the overload =
and collapse the cluster. <br><br><o:p></o:p></p><pre>In any case, it =
certainly looks like we're thinking along the same =
lines.<o:p></o:p></pre><p class=3DMsoNormal>Yes I agree. <br><br><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#00B05=
0'>PEJ: If you haven&#8217;t already, have a look at our =
draft:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#00B05=
0'><a =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jones-sip-overload-sce-00"><span=
 =
style=3D'color:#00B050'>http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jones-sip-overlo=
ad-sce-00</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#00B05=
0'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#00B05=
0'>It is now expired, but your draft suggests there is still life in =
this approach.&nbsp; We should look to harmonize them, =
perhaps.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#00B05=
0'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#00B05=
0'>Paul<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><br>Cordially, =
<br><br>Thierry<br><br><o:p></o:p></p><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>Pa=
ul<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>-----Original =
Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>From: <a =
href=3D"mailto:dispatch-bounces@ietf.org">dispatch-bounces@ietf.org</a> =
[<a =
href=3D"mailto:dispatch-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dispatch-bounces@ietf.or=
g</a>] On<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Behalf Of Vijay K. =
Gurbani<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 6:38 =
PM<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>To: <a =
href=3D"mailto:dispatch@ietf.org">dispatch@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><=
pre>Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load =
balancing<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>Paul: Thank =
you for your input.&nbsp; More =
inline.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>On 03/07/2011 =
05:14 PM, Paul Kyzivat wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>Vijay,<o:p></o:p></pr=
e><pre>IIUC, the algorithm you have proposed is similar to the one Paul =
Jones<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>has proposed - with the main difference being =
the numeric range of the<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>weight. Do I have that =
right?<o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>I =
believe that Paul J.'s algorithm is more suited towards =
overload<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>control, not load balancing (and I will =
await Paul J.'s correction to =
my<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>assertion).<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p=
></pre><pre>The intent in draft-bessis-dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing =
is to<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>*always* report the current load to give the =
upstream SIP proxy an<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>indication of the health of =
the SIP server in the cluster.&nbsp; If one =
waits<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>until overload is imminent, then it may be =
too late since a sudden and<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>unanticipated burst of =
messages will put the SIP server in overload<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>rather =
quickly.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>It isn't clear to me =
from your draft if you are specifying the<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>algorithm =
by which the relative weights are used to determine =
the<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>probability of a request going to one server or =
another.<o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>Ye=
s, same way as RFC2782 does =
it.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>ISTM that it *does* =
matter. And it especially matters if there is =
an<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>implication that the upstream node's algorithm =
may depend on some<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>assumption or knowledge about =
the downstream =
nodes.<o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>No =
knowledge, just a reported number that the upstream SIP proxy =
can<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>treat as a RFC2782-like weight indicator.&nbsp; =
Today, rfc3263-resolution<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>starts off with the SRV =
indicators in RFC2782, without any regard =
to<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>additional knowledge or assumption about =
downstream nodes.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing =
is trying to use the same model, except<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>render the =
weight to be sensitive to the current traffic in the =
cluster<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>in =
real-time.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>And of course this =
method of reporting weights isn't sufficient =
to<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>drive a balancing algorithm that is sensitive to =
some requests<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>requiring more or different resources =
than others. (That seems to be a<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>real problem, =
though I don't know if we have a real solution =
for<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>it.)<o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote><pre><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></pre><pre>Yes, that is a real problem, as is the problem of a =
SIP server in a<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>cluster that has a low weight and =
is thus not contacted with enough<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>frequency to =
merit more participation to the =
goodput.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>It is well =
known in SIP that some methods are more onerous to =
process<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>than others --- from a proxying point of =
view, processing an INVITE with<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>forking and =
response aggregation is far more detrimental to =
resource<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>usage than is processing a BYE.&nbsp; Some =
existing literature techniques<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>thus add a =
coefficient to the weight of sending an INVITE versus a =
BYE.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>At this time, the process outlined in =
dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>treats all =
requests the same, but we can definitely look at ways =
to<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>change this =
behaviour.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>Thanks,<o:p><=
/o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>- =
vijay<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>--<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Vijay K. Gurbani, =
Bell Laboratories, Alcatel-Lucent<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>1960 Lucent Lane, =
Rm. 9C-533, Naperville, Illinois 60566 (USA)<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Email: =
<a =
href=3D"mailto:vkg@%7bbell-labs.com,acm.org%7d">vkg@{bell-labs.com,acm.or=
g}</a> / <a =
href=3D"mailto:vijay.gurbani@alcatel-lucent.com">vijay.gurbani@alcatel-lu=
cent.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Web:&nbsp;&nbsp; <a =
href=3D"http://ect.bell-labs.com/who/vkg/">http://ect.bell-labs.com/who/v=
kg/</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>____________________________________________=
___<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>dispatch mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a =
href=3D"mailto:dispatch@ietf.org">dispatch@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><=
pre><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch">https://www.ietf.=
org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch</a><o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote><pre><o:p>=
&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre>_______________________________________________<o:=
p></o:p></pre><pre>dispatch mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a =
href=3D"mailto:dispatch@ietf.org">dispatch@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><=
pre><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch">https://www.ietf.=
org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch</a><o:p></o:p></pre><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>-- =
<br><b><span style=3D'font-size:24.0pt;font-family:"French Script =
MT"'>-- <br>Cordially, <br>Thierry Bessis</span></b> <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; <span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>IMS Solution: Architecture =
&amp; Product Management - ALTA Member<br>&nbsp; Organization: ALU &gt; =
Carrier group &gt; Wireline BU &gt;&nbsp;</span><b> </b>IMS Sol Arch, =
SE, PdM<br><img border=3D0 width=3D299 height=3D104 id=3D"_x0000_i1025" =
src=3D"cid:image001.jpg@01CBDDA2.FA35EE70" =
alt=3DAlcatel-Lucent><br>&nbsp; <span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>1960 Lucent Lane - Room =
6L-517<br>&nbsp; Naperville, IL&nbsp; 60563&nbsp; U S<br>&nbsp; Tel/Fax: =
+1 630 979 7989<br>&nbsp; Corporate IM: tbessis&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - =
Yahoo IM:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; thierry_bessis</span><br><br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>My WEB page:&nbsp;&nbsp; <a =
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href=3D"http://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=3Dnew_frs3175%40yahoo.fr=
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Hot Line: <a =
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From vkg@bell-labs.com  Tue Mar  8 12:58:37 2011
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On 03/07/2011 11:05 PM, Paul E. Jones wrote:
> Vijay,
>
> The Session Capacity Estimate (SCE) idea is actually quite similar
> to the "adaptive load balancing" draft, from what I can see.

Paul: Thank you much for your input.  More inline.

> SCE was proposed as a solution to the "overload" problem, the
> approach being one where we try to avoid overload by selecting a
> device that reports a higher capacity value. Thus, one could view it
> as "overload control through load balancing".

I think overload control and load balancing are distinct, even though
it is natural to relate them.  Load balancing can delay, or prevent,
overload; but once a SIP host is overloaded, load balancing by itself
will not help too much.

I think it is best that we treat them separately, if not for anything
else than the fact that SOC is not chartered to create a solution for
load balancing.  We (i.e., the dispatch WG) can decide to send this
work to SOC, but I think that decision is a bit premature at this
point.  Furthermore, I understand that before the formation of the
SOC WG, there was some debate on whether or not to include load-
balancing in the charter and it was decided that load-balancing will not
be included.

I believe that we should take the view that load balancing and overload-
control are separate, and that when a cluster of SIP servers is put in
service, all of them start off providing load balancing information to
the upstream SIP proxy.  The upstream SIP proxy will do load balancing
to try to spread the load proportionally to the resources available at
the downstream SIP servers (not evenly, proportionally).  As time
progresses, some of them will enter an overload state and at this time,
the overload control kicks in.  When the overload condition is
alleviated, the overloaded peer goes back to reporting its load.

Now ... to the details of "sce" and "weight" as proposed in our draft.

In the large, I agree that we are thinking along the same lines.  This
is good.

In addition to the email exchange between you and Thierry, there
is one more property that is very attractive: statelessness.

I think that it is advantageous that we impose the property of
statelessness on a load balancing mechanism.  With "sce",
the upstream SIP proxy must keep track of how many requests it
has sent to a downstream SIP server since the latter sent it the
last "sce" value.  Furthermore, each time a request is sent to the
downstream SIP server, the SIP proxy must decrement its request count.
Consequently, the state on how many requests have been sent to the
downstream SIP server since the SIP proxy got the last "sce" parameter,
what the low water-mark is, is all lost if not replicated upon a
reboot.

With "weight", you bypass all of this state maintenance business.

All the SIP proxy needs is a "weight" indicator that it will use
in a RFC2782-type algorithm to proportionally send as much traffic
to a downstream SIP server as it has indicated (i.e., higher "weight"
values will get proportionally more traffic).  This is much better
than round-robin, and furthermore, there is no requirement that each
downstream SIP server in the cluster set its "weight" in a consistent
manner, or even that the "weight" values of two SIP servers be
comparable.

If a SIP server thinks that it has infinite resources, it
can set the "weight" to be 65,535.  Consequently, it will get a
proportionally more traffic if the "weight" of other SIP servers
in the cluster is set to, say, 10 or 20.  Similarly, if the SIP server
in a cluster wants to accept less number of messages, it sets a
lower, albeit non-zero, value for its "weight" parameter.   If the
cluster has capacity, other load control weights will be higher, and
will thus get a proportionate share of the traffic.  As all SIP servers
in the cluster reach capacity, the load distribution algorithm arranges
for a uniform load distribution to all of the SIP servers until either
the offered load subsides or the SIP servers enter into overload mode
and start shedding traffic using the mechanism defined in the overload
control draft.

> I don't think local decisions in the box need to be subject to
> standardization: we just need to standardize the signaling to enable
> such decisions.

I could not agree more.  Local decisions on how each SIP server in a
cluster generates a "weight" value are not subject to standardization.
Transporting this value and specifying a default algorithm to allow
a SIP proxy to perform load balancing seem to be a good avenue for
standardization.

Note that I think specifying a default algorithm to do load balancing
is important, and our draft chooses to use the well-understood RFC2782
usage of "weight" to do this.  This does not preclude any implementer
from coming up with their own algorithm and using that instead.

> In any case, it certainly looks like we're thinking along the same
> lines.

Indeed.  If this work progresses, it'll be nice to have a coherent
view going forward.  If you will be in Prague, it will be good to
hook up and chat about this.

Once again, thanks for your input.

- vijay
-- 
Vijay K. Gurbani, Bell Laboratories, Alcatel-Lucent
1960 Lucent Lane, Rm. 9C-533, Naperville, Illinois 60566 (USA)
Email: vkg@{bell-labs.com,acm.org} / vijay.gurbani@alcatel-lucent.com
Web:   http://ect.bell-labs.com/who/vkg/

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On 3/8/2011 3:05 PM, Vijay K. Gurbani wrote:
> On 03/08/2011 07:49 AM, Paul Kyzivat wrote:
>> Vijay,
>>
>> Thanks for clarifications. Now I think I understand what you are
>> proposing. It is certainly simple, and better than nothing.
>
> Paul: Thanks for taking the time to tease out the larger picture.
>
> More inline.
>
>> It *does* require that all the members of the load balancing set
>> assign their own weights in a consistent way. This of course is no
>> different than when the weights are assigned in DNS, except that its
>> likely to be one person who puts all the weights into DNS, while the
>> weights coming from the servers can be influenced by who implemented
>> them. If they aren't all implemented consistently it can be a
>> problem.
>
> While I do not claim that the "weight" scheme is perfect, I think the
> bounds for ambiguity are much less with this approach. All the
> upstream SIP proxy needs is a "weight" indicator that it will
> use in a RFC2782-type algorithm to proportionally send as much traffic
> to a downstream SIP server as it has indicated (i.e., higher "weight"
> values will get proportionally more traffic). This is much better
> than round-robin, and furthermore, there is no requirement that each
> downstream SIP server in the cluster set its "weight" in a manner
> consistent with other servers, or even that the "weight" values of two
> SIP servers be comparable.

I don't understand that.

Suppose we have two servers that are identical except that they have 
different understandings of the weight assignment algorithm.

One thinks it is a powerful server, and sets its initial (unloaded) 
weight to 32k. The other thinks that it is not especially powerful as 
servers go, and so sets its weight to 4k.

That means that initially the first will get sent 8 times as much 
traffic as the other. So of course it will get more heavily loaded. As 
it does, it will presumably reduce its weight, but for a given load it 
will always have a larger number than the other.

> I have also been thinking about the email exchange we had yesterday.
> You had mentioned that:
>
>  > And of course this method of reporting weights isn't sufficient to
>  > drive a balancing algorithm that is sensitive to some requests
>  > requiring more or different resources than others. (That seems to be
>  > a real problem, though I don't know if we have a real solution for
>  > it.)
>
> I am starting to believe that this property --- being sensitive to
> the processing requirements of some requests versus others --- is
> more pertinent to overload control than it is to load balancing.
> The "weight" approach normalizes the processing load at a SIP server
> in the cluster and reports a canonical value regardless of the specific
> *type* of request the SIP server can handle. If the SIP server is
> handling a lot of resource-heavy INVITE transactions, then it will
> report a lower "weight" value.

The thing is, a server may be able to handle a lot of some type of load 
while being totally out of capacity for some other type of load.

(E.g. a box that is both an SBC to a provider sip trunk and a gw to some 
PSTN lines. It might be totally out of PSTN lines yet be able to handle 
lots of calls that happen to be addressed to that they go to the sip trunk.)

Also, shedding load is harder when the consumed resource is dialog stateful.

I think this is a hard problem.

	Thanks,
	Paul

> - vijay

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On 03/08/2011 03:00 PM, Paul Kyzivat wrote:
> I don't understand that.
>
> Suppose we have two servers that are identical except that they have
> different understandings of the weight assignment algorithm.
>
> One thinks it is a powerful server, and sets its initial (unloaded)
> weight to 32k. The other thinks that it is not especially powerful as
> servers go, and so sets its weight to 4k.
>
> That means that initially the first will get sent 8 times as much
> traffic as the other. So of course it will get more heavily loaded.
> As it does, it will presumably reduce its weight, but for a given
> load it will always have a larger number than the other.

Paul: Good point.  However, note that if the server used AIMD strategy,
it will converge to an equilibrium point where it is reporting < 4K
"weight".  At that time, the other server becomes the preferred server.

I suspect that a good algorithm for reducing the "weight" value would
use some sort of AIMD strategy.

> The thing is, a server may be able to handle a lot of some type of
> load while being totally out of capacity for some other type of
> load.
>
> (E.g. a box that is both an SBC to a provider sip trunk and a gw to
> some PSTN lines. It might be totally out of PSTN lines yet be able to
> handle lots of calls that happen to be addressed to that they go to
> the sip trunk.)

True, but at least it has enough processing capacity to reject
the calls to PSTN lines and accept calls to the SIP trunk.  Rejecting
the PSTN calls at the sink is better than forcing an upstream server
to shed them.

> Also, shedding load is harder when the consumed resource is dialog
> stateful.
>
> I think this is a hard problem.

No doubt, but I will sweep the which-message-to-shed problem
under the overload rug, and not worry about it when dusting the
load balancing rug ;-)

Thanks,

- vijay
-- 
Vijay K. Gurbani, Bell Laboratories, Alcatel-Lucent
1960 Lucent Lane, Rm. 9C-533, Naperville, Illinois 60566 (USA)
Email: vkg@{bell-labs.com,acm.org} / vijay.gurbani@alcatel-lucent.com
Web:   http://ect.bell-labs.com/who/vkg/

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Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2011 16:28:36 -0600
From: "Vijay K. Gurbani" <vkg@bell-labs.com>
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Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing
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On 03/08/2011 03:52 AM, Parthasarathi R (partr) wrote:
>[...] Even though any overload control algorithm
> is used ("oc" or "weight" or "SCE" or "resource-availability" other),
> the locally overload control mechanism is required in downstream as per
> mentioned in draft-ietf-soc-overload-design. I wish that we will look
> into these aspect because overload control is the extreme case for load
> balancing the cluster of downstream entity and load balancing mechanism
> shall help to avoid the overload control based on feedback.

Partha: Thank you for your input.  I do agree that overload control
is the extreme case for load balancing.  However, as my email to
Paul J. indicated, treating them differently may help, or we could
make load balancing an extension under overload control.  I don't
know what the answer is ... we'd have to hash it out in dispatch
on where to send load balancing to.  My understanding is that the
charter for SOC does not account for load balancing.

> I guess that your mechanism assumes about downstream SIP UA as signaling
> entity only and does not handle media. Please correct me in case I
> wrongly understand.

Our mechanism does not distinguish between media or signaling in the
sense that the "weight" that is reported is a normalized value that
is calculated by the SIP server in a cluster.  The SIP server could be
a SIP bridge, for instance, in which case it may be able to handle a
lot of point-to-point calls, but can only handle few calls
requiring full mesh conferencing capabilities.  As long as the SIP
server is handling the low-resource point-to-point calls, it reports
a higher "weight" value.  But as soon as a conference call with a large
number of participants commences, using other resources like mixers
and transcoders, etc., the SIP server starts to report lower "weight"
values.

Thanks,

- vijay
-- 
Vijay K. Gurbani, Bell Laboratories, Alcatel-Lucent
1960 Lucent Lane, Rm. 9C-533, Naperville, Illinois 60566 (USA)
Email: vkg@{bell-labs.com,acm.org} / vijay.gurbani@alcatel-lucent.com
Web:   http://ect.bell-labs.com/who/vkg/

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Subject: Re: [dispatch] New Draft -	draft-elz-dispatch-req-sip-3rdpartyprivacy-00
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Paul,=0A=0AI don't believe that a generalized mechanism is difficult. It ju=
st needs a little thought.=0A=0AHistory-info has defined a mechanism for ad=
ding privacy to an individual uri. It just need extending so that any uri c=
an use a similar mechanism.=0A=0AThe second issue regarding the precedence =
is the one which people may have opinions about.=0A=0AIan=0A=0A----- Origin=
al Message -----=0AFrom: "Paul Kyzivat" <pkyzivat@cisco.com>=0ATo: dispatch=
@ietf.org=0ASent: Tuesday, 8 March, 2011 2:12:39 PM=0ASubject: Re: [dispatc=
h] New Draft -=09draft-elz-dispatch-req-sip-3rdpartyprivacy-00=0A=0AIan,=0A=
=0AI'd like to thank you for submitting a clear requirements draft that is =
=0Aunburdened by mechanism proposals.=0A=0AIMO the hard part of this issue =
is sorting out whether there is a need =0Afor a "generalized" mechanism dea=
ling with arbitrary 3rd party =0Aidentities, or just for a mechanism to dea=
l with a specific enumerated =0Aset of 3rd party identities.=0A=0AWhile its=
 easy to wish for a generalized mechanism, I think it will be =0Avery diffi=
cult to adequately specify. If constrained to a specific set =0Athan it is =
a solvable problem.=0A=0A=09Thanks,=0A=09Paul=0A=0AOn 3/8/2011 3:15 AM, Ian=
 Elz wrote:=0A> All,=0A>=0A> I have submitted a new draft relating to third=
 party privacy in SIP=0A> messages.=0A>=0A> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-el=
z-dispatch-req-sip-3rdpartyprivacy-00.txt=0A> (Link that I forgot in the pr=
evious posting.)=0A>=0A> There are two specific issues included, how to spe=
cify third party=0A> privacy in a SIP message; the precedence of privacy se=
ttings between=0A> Privacy header values and Privacy URI parameters.=0A>=0A=
> The things to consider are:=0A>=0A> Should this work be pursued and if so=
 in which forum.=0A>=0A> A suitable solution to meet the requirements.=0A>=
=0A> How any changes should be implemented: a new draft which modifies=0A> =
RFC3323 or an update to RFC3323 which includes the additional work.=0A>=0A>=
 All comments welcome.=0A>=0A> Sorry I forgot to write the Abstract in vers=
ion -00. I will include this=0A> in the next version. ( I leave abstracts t=
o last and overlooked this=0A> before submission.)=0A>=0A> Ian Elz=0A>=0A>=
=0A>=0A> _______________________________________________=0A> dispatch maili=
ng list=0A> dispatch@ietf.org=0A> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dis=
patch=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A      

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Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing
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On 3/8/2011 5:02 PM, Vijay K. Gurbani wrote:
> On 03/08/2011 03:00 PM, Paul Kyzivat wrote:
>> I don't understand that.
>>
>> Suppose we have two servers that are identical except that they have
>> different understandings of the weight assignment algorithm.
>>
>> One thinks it is a powerful server, and sets its initial (unloaded)
>> weight to 32k. The other thinks that it is not especially powerful as
>> servers go, and so sets its weight to 4k.
>>
>> That means that initially the first will get sent 8 times as much
>> traffic as the other. So of course it will get more heavily loaded.
>> As it does, it will presumably reduce its weight, but for a given
>> load it will always have a larger number than the other.
>
> Paul: Good point. However, note that if the server used AIMD strategy,
> it will converge to an equilibrium point where it is reporting < 4K
> "weight". At that time, the other server becomes the preferred server.

I guess I need more explanation of how that algorithm applies to this 
problem. Are you saying that the "weight" is the "window size", and that 
the server increases/decreases it whenever the incoming load is not 
keeping it at the optimal loading? Sounds interesting. But I know next 
to nothing about that algorithm or the statistical behavior of such 
algorithms.

> I suspect that a good algorithm for reducing the "weight" value would
> use some sort of AIMD strategy.
>
>> The thing is, a server may be able to handle a lot of some type of
>> load while being totally out of capacity for some other type of
>> load.
>>
>> (E.g. a box that is both an SBC to a provider sip trunk and a gw to
>> some PSTN lines. It might be totally out of PSTN lines yet be able to
>> handle lots of calls that happen to be addressed to that they go to
>> the sip trunk.)
>
> True, but at least it has enough processing capacity to reject
> the calls to PSTN lines and accept calls to the SIP trunk. Rejecting
> the PSTN calls at the sink is better than forcing an upstream server
> to shed them.

Yes, up to a point. If we are balancing across a lot of servers, and 
most of them are out of pstn lines (because we are close to max 
capacity) then rejecting at the server may result in the same request 
having to be retried many times before finding a server that can handle 
the request. Once that number gets above a few the call wait time gets 
too high to be acceptable. You need a better way to pick the box that 
has resources to handle the particular request.

But I don't see how one characterizes the resource availability/limits 
in a way that the upstream node can effectively use to make a good decision.

	Thanks,
	Paul

>> Also, shedding load is harder when the consumed resource is dialog
>> stateful.
>>
>> I think this is a hard problem.
>
> No doubt, but I will sweep the which-message-to-shed problem
> under the overload rug, and not worry about it when dusting the
> load balancing rug ;-)
>
> Thanks,
>
> - vijay

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On 3/8/2011 7:21 PM, Ian Elz wrote:
> Paul,
>
> I don't believe that a generalized mechanism is difficult. It just needs a little thought.
>
> History-info has defined a mechanism for adding privacy to an individual uri. It just need extending so that any uri can use a similar mechanism.

The problem with generalizing is that boxes implementing privacy need to 
be updated every time there is a new place header, etc. defined that can 
contain something requiring privacy. At the moment that happens the 
world is filled with boxes that don't support privacy for that thing. 
How do you determine if you have the privacy you need?

	Thanks,
	Paul

> The second issue regarding the precedence is the one which people may have opinions about.
>
> Ian
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Paul Kyzivat"<pkyzivat@cisco.com>
> To: dispatch@ietf.org
> Sent: Tuesday, 8 March, 2011 2:12:39 PM
> Subject: Re: [dispatch] New Draft -	draft-elz-dispatch-req-sip-3rdpartyprivacy-00
>
> Ian,
>
> I'd like to thank you for submitting a clear requirements draft that is
> unburdened by mechanism proposals.
>
> IMO the hard part of this issue is sorting out whether there is a need
> for a "generalized" mechanism dealing with arbitrary 3rd party
> identities, or just for a mechanism to deal with a specific enumerated
> set of 3rd party identities.
>
> While its easy to wish for a generalized mechanism, I think it will be
> very difficult to adequately specify. If constrained to a specific set
> than it is a solvable problem.
>
> 	Thanks,
> 	Paul
>
> On 3/8/2011 3:15 AM, Ian Elz wrote:
>> All,
>>
>> I have submitted a new draft relating to third party privacy in SIP
>> messages.
>>
>> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-elz-dispatch-req-sip-3rdpartyprivacy-00.txt
>> (Link that I forgot in the previous posting.)
>>
>> There are two specific issues included, how to specify third party
>> privacy in a SIP message; the precedence of privacy settings between
>> Privacy header values and Privacy URI parameters.
>>
>> The things to consider are:
>>
>> Should this work be pursued and if so in which forum.
>>
>> A suitable solution to meet the requirements.
>>
>> How any changes should be implemented: a new draft which modifies
>> RFC3323 or an update to RFC3323 which includes the additional work.
>>
>> All comments welcome.
>>
>> Sorry I forgot to write the Abstract in version -00. I will include this
>> in the next version. ( I leave abstracts to last and overlooked this
>> before submission.)
>>
>> Ian Elz
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> dispatch mailing list
>> dispatch@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
>
>
>
>
>
>

From ian_elz@yahoo.co.uk  Wed Mar  9 00:18:40 2011
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Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2011 08:19:48 +0000 (GMT)
From: Ian Elz <ian_elz@yahoo.co.uk>
To: Paul Kyzivat <pkyzivat@cisco.com>
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--0-1236837020-1299658788=:29308
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
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Paul,=0A=0AI would have thought that using the present system that any new =
header added =0Athat requires privacy would require that the box providing =
the privacy service =0Awould need to be updated. E.g. If a new header "Xxxx=
" is defined which requires =0Aprivacy and can be classified as "user" priv=
acy in the existing mechanism then =0Athe privacy box would need to be upda=
ted to ensure that Header "Xxxx" was =0Aremoved when "user" privacy was ind=
icated but not if "header" privacy is =0Aindicated.=0A=0AIf we can defined =
a generic mechanism that allows the privacy box to identify =0Awhether priv=
acy is required irrespective of the header then there may be less =0Achange=
s required at the privacy box. E.g. If it was possible to mark a header =0A=
containing a uri with a privacy header indicating that privacy is required =
then =0Athe privacy box would know to remove the header even if it did not =
understand =0Athe specific header. This could be as follows: =0A=0A=0AXxxx:=
 <alice@example.com;'private'    (not suggesting that this is the mechanism=
 =0Afor marking privacy)=0A=0AThe privacy box could identify the privacy se=
tting and either remove the header =0Aif it is optional or anonymise the he=
ader if it is required in SIP.=0A=0AAt present I am more interested in whet=
her there is agreement with pursuing the =0Awork than in agreeing a solutio=
n.=0A=0AThanks=0A=0A=0AIan=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom:=
 Paul Kyzivat <pkyzivat@cisco.com>=0ATo: Ian Elz <ian_elz@yahoo.co.uk>=0ACc=
: dispatch@ietf.org=0ASent: Wed, 9 March, 2011 0:59:39=0ASubject: Re: [disp=
atch] New Draft - =0Adraft-elz-dispatch-req-sip-3rdpartyprivacy-00=0A=0A=0A=
=0AOn 3/8/2011 7:21 PM, Ian Elz wrote:=0A> Paul,=0A>=0A> I don't believe th=
at a generalized mechanism is difficult. It just needs a =0A>little thought=
.=0A>=0A> History-info has defined a mechanism for adding privacy to an ind=
ividual uri. =0A>It just need extending so that any uri can use a similar m=
echanism.=0A=0AThe problem with generalizing is that boxes implementing pri=
vacy need to =0Abe updated every time there is a new place header, etc. def=
ined that can =0Acontain something requiring privacy. At the moment that ha=
ppens the =0Aworld is filled with boxes that don't support privacy for that=
 thing. =0AHow do you determine if you have the privacy you need?=0A=0A    =
Thanks,=0A    Paul=0A=0A> The second issue regarding the precedence is the =
one which people may have =0A>opinions about.=0A>=0A> Ian=0A>=0A> ----- Ori=
ginal Message -----=0A> From: "Paul Kyzivat"<pkyzivat@cisco.com>=0A> To: di=
spatch@ietf.org=0A> Sent: Tuesday, 8 March, 2011 2:12:39 PM=0A> Subject: Re=
: [dispatch] New Draft -    =0A>draft-elz-dispatch-req-sip-3rdpartyprivacy-=
00=0A>=0A> Ian,=0A>=0A> I'd like to thank you for submitting a clear requir=
ements draft that is=0A> unburdened by mechanism proposals.=0A>=0A> IMO the=
 hard part of this issue is sorting out whether there is a need=0A> for a "=
generalized" mechanism dealing with arbitrary 3rd party=0A> identities, or =
just for a mechanism to deal with a specific enumerated=0A> set of 3rd part=
y identities.=0A>=0A> While its easy to wish for a generalized mechanism, I=
 think it will be=0A> very difficult to adequately specify. If constrained =
to a specific set=0A> than it is a solvable problem.=0A>=0A>     Thanks,=0A=
>     Paul=0A>=0A> On 3/8/2011 3:15 AM, Ian Elz wrote:=0A>> All,=0A>>=0A>> =
I have submitted a new draft relating to third party privacy in SIP=0A>> me=
ssages.=0A>>=0A>> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-elz-dispatch-req-sip-3rdpart=
yprivacy-00.txt=0A>> (Link that I forgot in the previous posting.)=0A>>=0A>=
> There are two specific issues included, how to specify third party=0A>> p=
rivacy in a SIP message; the precedence of privacy settings between=0A>> Pr=
ivacy header values and Privacy URI parameters.=0A>>=0A>> The things to con=
sider are:=0A>>=0A>> Should this work be pursued and if so in which forum.=
=0A>>=0A>> A suitable solution to meet the requirements.=0A>>=0A>> How any =
changes should be implemented: a new draft which modifies=0A>> RFC3323 or a=
n update to RFC3323 which includes the additional work.=0A>>=0A>> All comme=
nts welcome.=0A>>=0A>> Sorry I forgot to write the Abstract in version -00.=
 I will include this=0A>> in the next version. ( I leave abstracts to last =
and overlooked this=0A>> before submission.)=0A>>=0A>> Ian Elz=0A>>=0A>>=0A=
>>=0A>> _______________________________________________=0A>> dispatch maili=
ng list=0A>> dispatch@ietf.org=0A>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/d=
ispatch=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A>=0A=0A=0A=0A      
--0-1236837020-1299658788=:29308
Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><style type=3D"text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></he=
ad><body><div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10p=
t">Paul,<br><br>I would have thought that using the present system that any=
 new header added that requires privacy would require that the box providin=
g the privacy service would need to be updated. E.g. If a new header "Xxxx"=
 is defined which requires privacy and can be classified as "user" privacy =
in the existing mechanism then the privacy box would need to be updated to =
ensure that Header "Xxxx" was removed when "user" privacy was indicated but=
 not if "header" privacy is indicated.<br><br>If we can defined a generic m=
echanism that allows the privacy box to identify whether privacy is require=
d irrespective of the header then there may be less changes required at the=
 privacy box. E.g. If it was possible to mark a header containing a uri wit=
h a privacy header indicating that privacy is required then the privacy
 box would know to remove the header even if it did not understand the spec=
ific header. This could be as follows: <br><br>Xxxx: &lt;alice@example.com;=
'private'&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (not suggesting that this is the mechanism for =
marking privacy)<br><br>The privacy box could identify the privacy setting =
and either remove the header if it is optional or anonymise the header if i=
t is required in SIP.<br><br>At present I am more interested in whether the=
re is agreement with pursuing the work than in agreeing a solution.<br><br>=
Thanks<br><div><br></div><div style=3D"font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-se=
rif; font-size: 10pt;">Ian<br><div style=3D"font-family: arial,helvetica,sa=
ns-serif; font-size: 10pt;"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Tahoma"><hr size=3D"1"=
><b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> Paul Kyzivat &lt;pk=
yzivat@cisco.com&gt;<br><b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b=
> Ian Elz &lt;ian_elz@yahoo.co.uk&gt;<br><b><span style=3D"font-weight:
 bold;">Cc:</span></b> dispatch@ietf.org<br><b><span style=3D"font-weight: =
bold;">Sent:</span></b> Wed, 9 March, 2011 0:59:39<br><b><span style=3D"fon=
t-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [dispatch] New Draft - draft-elz-d=
ispatch-req-sip-3rdpartyprivacy-00<br></font><br><br><br>On 3/8/2011 7:21 P=
M, Ian Elz wrote:<br>&gt; Paul,<br>&gt;<br>&gt; I don't believe that a gene=
ralized mechanism is difficult. It just needs a little thought.<br>&gt;<br>=
&gt; History-info has defined a mechanism for adding privacy to an individu=
al uri. It just need extending so that any uri can use a similar mechanism.=
<br><br>The problem with generalizing is that boxes implementing privacy ne=
ed to <br>be updated every time there is a new place header, etc. defined t=
hat can <br>contain something requiring privacy. At the moment that happens=
 the <br>world is filled with boxes that don't support privacy for that thi=
ng. <br>How do you determine if you have the privacy you
 need?<br><br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Thanks,<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Paul<br><br>=
&gt; The second issue regarding the precedence is the one which people may =
have opinions about.<br>&gt;<br>&gt; Ian<br>&gt;<br>&gt; ----- Original Mes=
sage -----<br>&gt; From: "Paul Kyzivat"&lt;<a ymailto=3D"mailto:pkyzivat@ci=
sco.com" href=3D"mailto:pkyzivat@cisco.com">pkyzivat@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>&=
gt; To: <a ymailto=3D"mailto:dispatch@ietf.org" href=3D"mailto:dispatch@iet=
f.org">dispatch@ietf.org</a><br>&gt; Sent: Tuesday, 8 March, 2011 2:12:39 P=
M<br>&gt; Subject: Re: [dispatch] New Draft -&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; draft-elz-d=
ispatch-req-sip-3rdpartyprivacy-00<br>&gt;<br>&gt; Ian,<br>&gt;<br>&gt; I'd=
 like to thank you for submitting a clear requirements draft that is<br>&gt=
; unburdened by mechanism proposals.<br>&gt;<br>&gt; IMO the hard part of t=
his issue is sorting out whether there is a need<br>&gt; for a "generalized=
" mechanism dealing with arbitrary 3rd party<br>&gt; identities, or just fo=
r
 a mechanism to deal with a specific enumerated<br>&gt; set of 3rd party id=
entities.<br>&gt;<br>&gt; While its easy to wish for a generalized mechanis=
m, I think it will be<br>&gt; very difficult to adequately specify. If cons=
trained to a specific set<br>&gt; than it is a solvable problem.<br>&gt;<br=
>&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Thanks,<br>&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Paul<br>&gt;<br=
>&gt; On 3/8/2011 3:15 AM, Ian Elz wrote:<br>&gt;&gt; All,<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&=
gt;&gt; I have submitted a new draft relating to third party privacy in SIP=
<br>&gt;&gt; messages.<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"http://www.ietf.o=
rg/id/draft-elz-dispatch-req-sip-3rdpartyprivacy-00.txt" target=3D"_blank">=
http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-elz-dispatch-req-sip-3rdpartyprivacy-00.txt</a=
><br>&gt;&gt; (Link that I forgot in the previous posting.)<br>&gt;&gt;<br>=
&gt;&gt; There are two specific issues included, how to specify third party=
<br>&gt;&gt; privacy in a SIP message; the precedence of privacy
 settings between<br>&gt;&gt; Privacy header values and Privacy URI paramet=
ers.<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; The things to consider are:<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt=
;&gt; Should this work be pursued and if so in which forum.<br>&gt;&gt;<br>=
&gt;&gt; A suitable solution to meet the requirements.<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&=
gt; How any changes should be implemented: a new draft which modifies<br>&g=
t;&gt; RFC3323 or an update to RFC3323 which includes the additional work.<=
br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; All comments welcome.<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; Sorry=
 I forgot to write the Abstract in version -00. I will include this<br>&gt;=
&gt; in the next version. ( I leave abstracts to last and overlooked this<b=
r>&gt;&gt; before submission.)<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; Ian Elz<br>&gt;&gt;<=
br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; _______________________________________=
________<br>&gt;&gt; dispatch mailing list<br>&gt;&gt; <a ymailto=3D"mailto=
:dispatch@ietf.org"
 href=3D"mailto:dispatch@ietf.org">dispatch@ietf.org</a><br>&gt;&gt; <a hre=
f=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch" target=3D"_blank">http=
s://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch</a><br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br>&=
gt;<br>&gt;<br>&gt;<br></div></div> </div><br>=0A=0A=0A=0A      </body></ht=
ml>
--0-1236837020-1299658788=:29308--

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Subject: Re: [dispatch] New Draft - draft-elz-dispatch-req-sip-3rdpartyprivacy-00
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On 3/9/2011 3:19 AM, Ian Elz wrote:
> Paul,
...
> At present I am more interested in whether there is agreement with
> pursuing the work than in agreeing a solution.

I think that is the right focus. So lets keep it at that for now, and 
worry about the details later.

	Thanks,
	Paul

From tanakai@nttdocomo.co.jp  Wed Mar  9 06:53:49 2011
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Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2011 23:54:59 +0900
From: Itsuma TANAKA <tanakai@nttdocomo.co.jp>
To: dispatch@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [dispatch] Revisionofdraft-allen-dispatch-imei-urn-as-instanceid
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Dear All,

I work for NTT DOCOMO, Inc in Japan. and attend various 3GPP meetings (SA2,
CT1, CT4, and CT3) and GSM Association (GSMA) Interworking, Roaming Expert
Group (IREG), Roaming in LTE (RILTE) and Packet subgroup meetings.  I serve
as a Vice Chair of GSMA IREG RILTE and Packet subgroups.

I would like to express my support of draft-montemurro-gsma-imei-urn and the
associated draft-allen-dispatch-imei-urn-as-instanceid.

The reasons are exactly same as what Ricky Kaura (Samsung) expressed.  A
various 3GPP specifications (IMS Registration in 3GPP TS24.229, IMS
emergency calls in TS23.237 and TS24.237, ICS in TS23.292 and TS24.292), and
GSMA document (GSMA PRD IR.92, "IMS Profile for Voice and SMS") are using
these drafts.
 
These internet drafts are very important to support various key features in
3GPP and to enable GSMA Voice over LTE.  Therefore, I kindly would like ask
that this work is progressed as quickly as possible in IETF. 


Best regards,

Itsuma Tanaka
NTT DOCOMO



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Subject: [dispatch] Fwd: [new-work] Proposed W3C Charter: Web Real-Time Communications Working Group (until 2011-03-18)
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FYI

Begin forwarded message:

> From: Ian Jacobs <ij@w3.org>
> Date: February 17, 2011 11:12:50 AM MST
> To: new-work@ietf.org
> Subject: [new-work] Proposed W3C Charter: Web Real-Time Communications =
Working Group (until 2011-03-18)
>=20
> Hello,
>=20
> Today W3C Advisory Committee Representatives received a Proposal to =
revise the Ubiquitous Web Applications Activity [0] (see the W3C Process =
Document description of Activity Proposals [1]). This proposal includes =
a draft charter for the Web Real-Time Communications Working Group:
>  http://www.w3.org/2010/12/webrtc-charter
>=20
> As part of ensuring that the community is aware of proposed work at =
W3C, this draft charter is public during the Advisory Committee review =
period.
>=20
> W3C invites public comments through 2011-03-18 on the proposed =
charter. Please send comments to public-new-work@w3.org, which has a =
public archive:
>  http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-new-work/
>=20
> Other than comments sent in formal responses by W3C Advisory Committee =
Representatives, W3C cannot guarantee a response to comments. If you =
work for a W3C Member [2], please coordinate your comments with your =
Advisory Committee Representative. For example, you may wish to make =
public comments via this list and have your Advisory Committee =
Representative refer to it from his or her formal review comments.
>=20
> If you should have any questions or need further information, please =
contact Fran=E7ois Daoust, Team Contact <fd@w3.org>.
>=20
> Thank you,
>=20
> Ian Jacobs, Head of W3C Communications
>=20
> [0] http://www.w3.org/2007/uwa/
> [1]
> http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/activities#ActivityCreation
> [2] http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Member/List
> --
> Ian Jacobs (ij@w3.org)    http://www.w3.org/People/Jacobs/
> Tel:                                      +1 718 260 9447
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> new-work mailing list
> new-work@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/new-work


From vkg@bell-labs.com  Wed Mar  9 09:06:39 2011
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Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2011 11:08:38 -0600
From: "Vijay K. Gurbani" <vkg@bell-labs.com>
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Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing
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On 03/08/2011 06:26 PM, Paul Kyzivat wrote:
> I guess I need more explanation of how that algorithm applies to
> this problem.

Paul: I am referring to the stock algorithm in RFC2782 for
ordering RRs using the "weight" component.  Better algorithms
can be substituted, of course, but as a default, the one in
RFC2782 suffices.

> Are you saying that the "weight" is the "window size", and that the
> server increases/decreases it whenever the incoming load is not
> keeping it at the optimal loading? Sounds interesting.

Yes, sort of.  But because traffic is flowing one way --- from
the SIP proxy (the load balancer) to the SIP server in the
cluster --- there is only one window size (that of the latter).

> But I know next to nothing about that algorithm or the statistical
> behavior of such algorithms.

Taking your example, let's say that there are two servers and
srv1 advertises a "weight" of 32,000 and srv2 advertises a
"weight" of 4,000.  As load increases, srv1 decreases its
"weight" by 1/2 each time period (i.e., at time T0, "weight" was
32,000; at T1 it advertises a "weight" of 16,000; at T2 8,000;
at T3 4,000; at T4 2,000).  Let's also assume that srv2 keeps
its "weight" constant at 4,000.

At T4, the "weight" of srv1 is less than that of srv2.  Up until T4,
srv1 will get about 80% of the traffic (assuming only these two
servers and a constant "weight" of 4,000 for srv2).  At T4 and beyond,
srv2 picks up more than 90% of the traffic, relieving srv1.

Convergence is predicated on the delta between T_n and T_(n+1).
If the delta is larger, it will take a bit more time to converge.

Thanks,

- vijay
-- 
Vijay K. Gurbani, Bell Laboratories, Alcatel-Lucent
1960 Lucent Lane, Rm. 9C-533, Naperville, Illinois 60566 (USA)
Email: vkg@{bell-labs.com,acm.org} / vijay.gurbani@alcatel-lucent.com
Web:   http://ect.bell-labs.com/who/vkg/

From dworley@avaya.com  Wed Mar  9 09:09:05 2011
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To: Paul Kyzivat <pkyzivat@cisco.com>, "Vijay K. Gurbani" <vkg@bell-labs.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2011 12:10:18 -0500
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Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing
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This is a fascinating subject.  On the way home from work, I started to fra=
me a set of differential equations to model it.

The key, of course, is to have all of the servers reach full capacity *at t=
he same time* if the presented load increases steadily.  That is how we max=
imize goodput under such circumstances.  (If there is spare capacity within=
 the cluster of servers, it doesn't matter if the load on the servers is ba=
lanced or not, as goodput equals presented load.)

The crucial questions are "What is the algorithm for generating the number =
that the server presents to the load balancer?" and "What algorithm does th=
e load balancer use for assigning work, given the numbers presented by the =
servers?"

The draft (draft-bessis-dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing-00) seems to assum=
e that the assignment algorithm is much the same as RFC 3263, to statistica=
lly send Wi/(sum(Wj)) of the load to server i (with Wi being the number rep=
orted by server i).  The draft gives little or no hint of what the generati=
on algorithm will be.

In order for the mechanism to be standardized in a meaningful way, it must =
specify the generation algorithm sufficiently that a combination of servers=
 that use generation algorithms in conformance with the standard will work =
together correctly -- as I said above, as the entire cluster nears full cap=
acity, all servers much reach full capacity simultaneously.

t seems that we need to do a careful analysis of the behavior of the system=
 near the point where "unused capacity of server i" is near 0 for all serve=
rs i.  The first question is to categorize generation functions by their be=
havior near the point "unused capacity =3D 0", that is, does the reported "=
weight" approach a non-zero number, does it approach zero linearly, does it=
 approach zero quadratically, etc.?  I suspect that the system behaves well=
 only when all servers use functions of the same form, and with the same co=
nstant on the leading term.  Intuitively, the correct answer seems to be to=
 have the weight be "the unused capacity, measured in number of calls that =
can be handled".

This gets messier when we consider that the load is comes in quantized unit=
s (single calls) and has significant statistical fluctuations.  In particul=
ar, some functions that appear to work correctly in the "analytical" analys=
is outlined above my have bad behavior when presented with statistical fluc=
tuations.

Additionally, the feedback from the servers to the load balancer will not b=
e instantaneous, and the delays will introduce "control loop delays", which=
 if not handled correctly might cause the system to oscillate.

A different problem results from the fact that different calls may present =
decidedly different loads to a server, and that the server may have several=
 different types of resource.  How does the server sensibly report the natu=
re of its resources and the loading on each?  How does the load balancer es=
timate the resources required by an individual call?  (Note that this probl=
em is largely nonexistent in circuit-switched systems, as all calls present=
 exactly the same load.)  (This is the problem that has bedevilled attempts=
 to solve the problem in draft-partha-sip-overload-resource-availability.)

But I don't see any of the needed analysis in the draft, and I don't see an=
y indication in the draft of a realization that this analysis needs to be d=
one.  Until that is fixed, I predict that a solution will not be found, or =
worse, a solution that appears to work on paper but does not work in practi=
ce.

Dale

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Thanks Paul for you detailed answer !

I've looked at your SCE proposal and your comments and my impression is 
that our two proposals are actually very different both from their 
intent perspective, and from their realization perspective.

The intent of our load balancing proposal is clearly continuous load 
balancing. Our suggested weight does try to figure any kind of remaining 
capacity in terms of sessions: it only indicates the instant (slightly 
smoothed) available resource, which integrates CPU, Memory and any other 
constrained resource. For the kind of usage we have in mind, (and for 
example), it does not matter if we have lot of sessions "left" when we 
have very little CPU to register those sessions: it is optimal to 
temporary offload this busy node rather than risking a CPU induced 
rejection or failure. When the node will have more CPU available, it 
will take more sessions, and may be even more than others, because it 
may have now more memory than others. If this node never have more CPU 
available, then its "session" capacity is actually unusable and the 
system correctly reflects that.

Also, the SOC was not intended for "dynamic" load distribution: it only 
provides the feedback when some shedding is expected (So already one or 
multiple nodes are about to be overloaded). Also, integrating the 
information from both SOC and SCE to take the distribution decision 
seems rather complicated to me. In our proposal, the distribution 
algorithm is simple, never changes, and is independent from SOC. We 
selected a node with weights always the same way, and we apply the SOC 
rejection when applicable to this node.

Cordially,

Thierry

On 08-Mar-2011 14:47, Paul E. Jones wrote:
>
> Thierry,
>
> Please see my comments below in green:
>
> *From:*Thierry Bessis [mailto:Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 08, 2011 12:35 PM
> *To:* Paul E. Jones
> *Cc:* 'Vijay K. Gurbani'; dispatch@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing
>
> Paul,
>
> Please let me address some of your comments.
> I don't know what the SCE is, so please pardon me if I misunderstand 
> something.
>
> On 07-Mar-2011 23:05, Paul E. Jones wrote:
>
> Vijay,
>   
> The Session Capacity Estimate (SCE) idea is actually quite similar to the
> "adaptive load balancing" draft, from what I can see.  SCE was proposed as a
> solution to the "overload" problem, the approach being one where we try to
> avoid overload by selecting a device that reports a higher capacity value.
> Thus, one could view it as "overload control through load balancing".  We
> didn't explicitly call it load balancing, though, because we were not trying
> to balance load (i.e., place the same load on all servers).  Rather, we just
> wanted to direct traffic to devices that we knew had available capacity.
>
> Agreed, the goal seems to be the same: avoiding or at least delaying 
> overload.
> And your other comment too: our proposal does try to balance the load 
> on all the servers. The rational is that it is very easy for each 
> server to know where it is in terms of resource usage (for instance: 
> I'm 60 percent resource loaded at this moment), and this is just the 
> information you need to balance the traffic. Now it seems (but it is 
> not clear, see below)  that the SCE "available capacity" is actually a 
> real time feedback, so the information would be very similar actually. 
> (What's the difference ? )
>
> PEJ: I think it is very similar.  SCE provides real-time feedback of 
> the available resource capacity of a peer device.  The intent is to 
> convey a single integer value that represents an estimate of the 
> number of sessions the peer device can handle.  Note, this is not 
> "message per second" or other, but the number of sessions.  The focus 
> on SCE is on devices like "call agents", "session border controllers", 
> stateful SIP proxies, etc.
>
>   
> In practice, the way SCE would be employed is the following:
> * SIP proxy, B2BUA, etc. (selector) would receive SCE capacity from
>     peer devices
>   * The selector would direct traffic toward the peer devices in a
>     round-robin fashion, taking into consideration the SCE value so
>     as to prevent exhausting resources on any given peer device
>
> I see a contradiction here: if it is round-robin, it does not take 
> into account the SCE value.
> Is that something more like a weighted round-robin algorithm ?
>
> PEJ: As I mention below, the algorithm used to select a peer device is 
> not a part of the SCE draft.  One can use any mechanism.  The SCE 
> draft merely advertises a session capacity estimate.  We've found 
> round-robin to be a simple approach that works, as it distributes load 
> relatively uniformly, but stops directing traffic toward devices that 
> report an SCE value that is below a specified threshold. Other input 
> could be considered, but we deliberately left the algorithm outside 
> the scope of SCE.
>
>   * Once the peer's SCE value dropped below a given "low-water mark",
>     the peer device would be less favored and not given traffic until
>     the SCE value increases above the low-water mark (OPTIONS "ping"
>     messages may be used to determine the SCE value in the event that
>     there is no other traffic)
>
> Why would we wait for a lower mark before to influence the 
> distribution ? Also is that less favored, or given no traffic ?
>
> PEJ: With our use of SCE, we're not trying to "balance" the load, per 
> se.  One certainly could do that, but in order to balance the load on 
> peer devices when they are out of balance, one must direct multiple 
> new sessions toward the same device.  That is not always desirable 
> since new sessions usually consume more resources temporarily than 
> established sessions.  So, we try to burden a peer device by throwing 
> a number of new sessions toward the peer by distributing them in a 
> round-robin fashion.  Again, though, the approach taken is outside the 
> scope of the SCE draft.
>
>
> The later has stability issues.  And why do we need ping Options when 
> there is no traffic ?
>  If there is no traffic (or very little), should we care about optimal 
> distribution from this source ?
>
> PEJ: The assumption is that a peer device might also have several 
> peers.  So, while device A1 may not be directing traffic toward device 
> B, perhaps A2, A3, and A4 are.  We can use OPTIONS "ping" messages to 
> get current SCE information.
>
>
>
>   * The current SOC overload control mechanism would be used to
>     to prevent message overloading, as SCE only focuses on resource
>     overloading (e.g., memory, CPU, disk space, DSPs)
>
> I don't see this difference here (message overload versus resource 
> overload ? ) . To me, SOC focuses on source shedding, while SCE seems 
> to focus on improved load distribution, just like our proposal.
>
> PEJ: A peer device might be able to handle 18,000 new sessions, but 
> perhaps it can only handle them at a rate of 100 per second.  We would 
> use SCE to determine that a peer can handle new sessions, while we 
> would use the methods SOC is defining to prevent message overload so 
> we do not send 200 INVITEs per second to the peer.  (Use of the SOC 
> mechanism might prove to work better than our current round-robin 
> approach, but we've not tested it.)
>
>   
> Note that the "round-robin" approach may or may not be preferred and is not
> required in our draft.  I've found this approach works pretty well, but one
> may prefer to use a particular weighting that is more complex.  I don't
> think local decisions in the box need to be subject to standardization: we
> just need to standardize the signaling to enable such decisions.
>
> I believe the signaling is not enough. The deep meaning of the 
> feedback parameter needs to be clarified too.
> For example, in our proposal, the feedback is simply the current 
> utilization rate of the node (very simple).
>
> PEJ: That sounds similar to SCE.  An SCE-capable device advertises to 
> its peer how many new sessions it can handle given the number of 
> sessions it is currently handling.
>
> Also the expectation needs to be clarified because it has a very 
> important impact on the recommended behavior in case of overload.
> The solution that we propose constantly tries to balance load in the 
> cluster of servers. Therefore, in case the SOC shedding kicks in, 
> there is NOT NEED to repeat the message elsewhere in the cluster 
> because it is balanced already (So no other server has more capacity). 
> This is a huge advantage for the network stability as message repeat 
> tends to spread the overload and collapse the cluster.
>
> In any case, it certainly looks like we're thinking along the same lines.
>
> Yes I agree.
>
> PEJ: If you haven't already, have a look at our draft:
>
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jones-sip-overload-sce-00
>
> It is now expired, but your draft suggests there is still life in this 
> approach.  We should look to harmonize them, perhaps.
>
> Paul
>
>
> Cordially,
>
> Thierry
>
>   
> Paul
>   
>
>     -----Original Message-----
>
>     From:dispatch-bounces@ietf.org  <mailto:dispatch-bounces@ietf.org>  [mailto:dispatch-bounces@ietf.org] On
>
>     Behalf Of Vijay K. Gurbani
>
>     Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 6:38 PM
>
>     To:dispatch@ietf.org  <mailto:dispatch@ietf.org>
>
>     Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing
>
>       
>
>     Paul: Thank you for your input.  More inline.
>
>       
>
>     On 03/07/2011 05:14 PM, Paul Kyzivat wrote:
>
>         Vijay,
>
>         IIUC, the algorithm you have proposed is similar to the one Paul Jones
>
>         has proposed - with the main difference being the numeric range of the
>
>         weight. Do I have that right?
>
>       
>
>     I believe that Paul J.'s algorithm is more suited towards overload
>
>     control, not load balancing (and I will await Paul J.'s correction to my
>
>     assertion).
>
>       
>
>     The intent in draft-bessis-dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing is to
>
>     *always* report the current load to give the upstream SIP proxy an
>
>     indication of the health of the SIP server in the cluster.  If one waits
>
>     until overload is imminent, then it may be too late since a sudden and
>
>     unanticipated burst of messages will put the SIP server in overload
>
>     rather quickly.
>
>       
>
>         It isn't clear to me from your draft if you are specifying the
>
>         algorithm by which the relative weights are used to determine the
>
>         probability of a request going to one server or another.
>
>       
>
>     Yes, same way as RFC2782 does it.
>
>       
>
>         ISTM that it *does* matter. And it especially matters if there is an
>
>         implication that the upstream node's algorithm may depend on some
>
>         assumption or knowledge about the downstream nodes.
>
>       
>
>     No knowledge, just a reported number that the upstream SIP proxy can
>
>     treat as a RFC2782-like weight indicator.  Today, rfc3263-resolution
>
>     starts off with the SRV indicators in RFC2782, without any regard to
>
>     additional knowledge or assumption about downstream nodes.
>
>     dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing is trying to use the same model, except
>
>     render the weight to be sensitive to the current traffic in the cluster
>
>     in real-time.
>
>       
>
>         And of course this method of reporting weights isn't sufficient to
>
>         drive a balancing algorithm that is sensitive to some requests
>
>         requiring more or different resources than others. (That seems to be a
>
>         real problem, though I don't know if we have a real solution for
>
>         it.)
>
>       
>
>     Yes, that is a real problem, as is the problem of a SIP server in a
>
>     cluster that has a low weight and is thus not contacted with enough
>
>     frequency to merit more participation to the goodput.
>
>       
>
>     It is well known in SIP that some methods are more onerous to process
>
>     than others --- from a proxying point of view, processing an INVITE with
>
>     forking and response aggregation is far more detrimental to resource
>
>     usage than is processing a BYE.  Some existing literature techniques
>
>     thus add a coefficient to the weight of sending an INVITE versus a BYE.
>
>     At this time, the process outlined in dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing
>
>     treats all requests the same, but we can definitely look at ways to
>
>     change this behaviour.
>
>       
>
>     Thanks,
>
>       
>
>     - vijay
>
>     --
>
>     Vijay K. Gurbani, Bell Laboratories, Alcatel-Lucent
>
>     1960 Lucent Lane, Rm. 9C-533, Naperville, Illinois 60566 (USA)
>
>     Email:vkg@{bell-labs.com,acm.org}  <mailto:vkg@%7bbell-labs.com,acm.org%7d>  /vijay.gurbani@alcatel-lucent.com  <mailto:vijay.gurbani@alcatel-lucent.com>
>
>     Web:http://ect.bell-labs.com/who/vkg/
>
>     _______________________________________________
>
>     dispatch mailing list
>
>     dispatch@ietf.org  <mailto:dispatch@ietf.org>
>
>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
>
>   
> _______________________________________________
> dispatch mailing list
> dispatch@ietf.org  <mailto:dispatch@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
>
> -- 
> *--
> Cordially,
> Thierry Bessis*
>
> IMS Solution: Architecture & Product Management - ALTA Member
>   Organization: ALU > Carrier group > Wireline BU > **IMS Sol Arch, 
> SE, PdM
> Alcatel-Lucent
> 1960 Lucent Lane - Room 6L-517
>   Naperville, IL  60563  U S
>   Tel/Fax: +1 630 979 7989
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>
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> My Calendar: www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=new_frs3175%40yahoo.fr 
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>
> Conference information:
> 2801 2801 (US):+1 800 771 8734 - (F):+33 800 941 674 - Access Code: 
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> others countries see: http://all.alcatel-lucent.com/audio
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> *Upcoming planned Vacation: None*
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> dispatch mailing list
> dispatch@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch

-- 
-- 
Cordially,
Thierry Bessis
IMS Solution: Architecture & Product Management - ALTA Member
   Organization: ALU > Carrier group > Wireline BU > **IMS Sol Arch, SE, PdM
Alcatel-Lucent
1960 Lucent Lane - Room 6L-517
   Naperville, IL  60563  U S
   Tel/Fax: +1 630 979 7989
   Corporate IM: tbessis    - Yahoo IM:     thierry_bessis

My WEB page:   http://ihgpweb.ih.lucent.com/~tbessis/
My Calendar:   www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=new_frs3175%40yahoo.fr
ALTA Hot Line: http://alta.all.alcatel-lucent.com/hotline

Conference information:
2801 2801 (US):+1 800 771 8734 - (F):+33 800 941 674 - Access Code: 9797989
others countries see: http://all.alcatel-lucent.com/audio

Upcoming planned Business Trip: 12 April - 14 April 2011
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    Thanks Paul for you detailed answer ! <br>
    <br>
    I've looked at your SCE proposal and your comments and my impression
    is that our two proposals are actually very different both from
    their intent perspective, and from their realization perspective. <br>
    <br>
    The intent of our load balancing proposal is clearly continuous load
    balancing. Our suggested weight does try to figure any kind of
    remaining capacity in terms of sessions: it only indicates the
    instant (slightly smoothed) available resource, which integrates
    CPU, Memory and any other constrained resource. For the kind of
    usage we have in mind, (and for example), it does not matter if we
    have lot of sessions "left" when we have very little CPU to register
    those sessions: it is optimal to temporary offload this busy node
    rather than risking a CPU induced rejection or failure. When the
    node will have more CPU available, it will take more sessions, and
    may be even more than others, because it may have now more memory
    than others. If this node never have more CPU available, then its
    "session" capacity is actually unusable and the system correctly
    reflects that. <br>
    <br>
    Also, the SOC was not intended for "dynamic" load distribution: it
    only provides the feedback when some shedding is expected (So
    already one or multiple nodes are about to be overloaded). Also,
    integrating the information from both SOC and SCE to take the
    distribution decision seems rather complicated to me. In our
    proposal, the distribution algorithm is simple, never changes, and
    is independent from SOC. We selected a node with weights always the
    same way, and we apply the SOC rejection when applicable to this
    node.<br>
    <br>
    Cordially, <br>
    <br>
    Thierry<br>
    <br>
    On 08-Mar-2011 14:47, Paul E. Jones wrote:
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:004601cbddd2$15b11ab0$41135010$@packetizer.com"
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        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
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        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
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        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
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            73, 125);">Please see my comments below in </span><span
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            font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
            color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
            &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31,
            73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
            &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31,
            73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <div style="border-width: medium medium medium 1.5pt;
          border-style: none none none solid; border-color:
          -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color
          blue; padding: 0in 0in 0in 4pt;">
          <div>
            <div style="border-right: medium none; border-width: 1pt
              medium medium; border-style: solid none none;
              border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color
              -moz-use-text-color; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">
              <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;
                    font-family:
                    &quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:
                    windowtext;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:
                  10pt; font-family:
                  &quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:
                  windowtext;"> Thierry Bessis
                  [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com">mailto:Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com</a>] <br>
                  <b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, March 08, 2011 12:35 PM<br>
                  <b>To:</b> Paul E. Jones<br>
                  <b>Cc:</b> 'Vijay K. Gurbani'; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dispatch@ietf.org">dispatch@ietf.org</a><br>
                  <b>Subject:</b> Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            </div>
          </div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal">Paul, <br>
            <br>
            Please let me address some of your comments. <br>
            I don't know what the SCE is, so please pardon me if I
            misunderstand something. <br>
            <br>
            On 07-Mar-2011 23:05, Paul E. Jones wrote: <o:p></o:p></p>
          <pre>Vijay,<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>The Session Capacity Estimate (SCE) idea is actually quite similar to the<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>"adaptive load balancing" draft, from what I can see.&nbsp; SCE was proposed as a<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>solution to the "overload" problem, the approach being one where we try to<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>avoid overload by selecting a device that reports a higher capacity value.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>Thus, one could view it as "overload control through load balancing".&nbsp; We<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>didn't explicitly call it load balancing, though, because we were not trying<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>to balance load (i.e., place the same load on all servers). &nbsp;Rather, we just<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>wanted to direct traffic to devices that we knew had available capacity.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <p class="MsoNormal">Agreed, the goal seems to be the same:
            avoiding or at least delaying overload. <br>
            And your other comment too: our proposal does try to balance
            the load on all the servers. The rational is that it is very
            easy for each server to know where it is in terms of
            resource usage (for instance: I'm 60 percent resource loaded
            at this moment), and this is just the information you need
            to balance the traffic. Now it seems (but it is not clear,
            see below)&nbsp; that the SCE "available capacity" is actually a
            real time feedback, so the information would be very similar
            actually. (What's the difference ? )<span style="color:
              rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
              font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
              color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
              font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
              color: rgb(0, 176, 80);">PEJ: I think it is very similar.&nbsp;
              SCE provides real-time feedback of the available resource
              capacity of a peer device.&nbsp; The intent is to convey a
              single integer value that represents an estimate of the
              number of sessions the peer device can handle.&nbsp; Note, this
              is not &#8220;message per second&#8221; or other, but the number of
              sessions.&nbsp; The focus on SCE is on devices like &#8220;call
              agents&#8221;, &#8220;session border controllers&#8221;, stateful SIP
              proxies, etc.</span> <br>
            <br>
            <o:p></o:p></p>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>In practice, the way SCE would be employed is the following:<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>* SIP proxy, B2BUA, etc. (selector) would receive SCE capacity from<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; peer devices<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre> * The selector would direct traffic toward the peer devices in a<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; round-robin fashion, taking into consideration the SCE value so<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; as to prevent exhausting resources on any given peer device<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <p class="MsoNormal">I see a contradiction here: if it is
            round-robin, it does not take into account the SCE value. <br>
            Is that something more like a weighted round-robin algorithm
            ? <span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
              font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
              color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
              font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
              color: rgb(0, 176, 80);">PEJ: As I mention below, the
              algorithm used to select a peer device is not a part of
              the SCE draft.&nbsp; One can use any mechanism.&nbsp; The SCE draft
              merely advertises a session capacity estimate.&nbsp; We&#8217;ve
              found round-robin to be a simple approach that works, as
              it distributes load relatively uniformly, but stops
              directing traffic toward devices that report an SCE value
              that is below a specified threshold. Other input could be
              considered, but we deliberately left the algorithm outside
              the scope of SCE.</span><br>
            <br>
            <o:p></o:p></p>
          <pre> * Once the peer's SCE value dropped below a given "low-water mark",<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; the peer device would be less favored and not given traffic until<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; the SCE value increases above the low-water mark (OPTIONS "ping"<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; messages may be used to determine the SCE value in the event that<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; there is no other traffic)<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <p class="MsoNormal">Why would we wait for a lower mark before
            to influence the distribution ? Also is that less favored,
            or given no traffic ? <span style="color: rgb(31, 73,
              125);"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
              font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
              color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
              font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
              color: rgb(0, 176, 80);">PEJ: With our use of SCE, we&#8217;re
              not trying to &#8220;balance&#8221; the load, per se.&nbsp; One certainly
              could do that, but in order to balance the load on peer
              devices when they are out of balance, one must direct
              multiple new sessions toward the same device.&nbsp; That is not
              always desirable since new sessions usually consume more
              resources temporarily than established sessions.&nbsp; So, we
              try to burden a peer device by throwing a number of new
              sessions toward the peer by distributing them in a
              round-robin fashion.&nbsp; Again, though, the approach taken is
              outside the scope of the SCE draft.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
              font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
              color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
            The later has stability issues.&nbsp; And why do we need ping
            Options when there is no traffic ?<br>
            &nbsp;If there is no traffic (or very little), should we care
            about optimal distribution from this source ?<span
              style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
              font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
              color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
              font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
              color: rgb(0, 176, 80);">PEJ: The assumption is that a
              peer device might also have several peers.&nbsp; So, while
              device A1 may not be directing traffic toward device B,
              perhaps A2, A3, and A4 are.&nbsp; We can use OPTIONS &#8220;ping&#8221;
              messages to get current SCE information.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"> <br>
            <br>
            <o:p></o:p></p>
          <pre>&nbsp;* The current SOC overload control mechanism would be used to<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; to prevent message overloading, as SCE only focuses on resource<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; overloading (e.g., memory, CPU, disk space, DSPs)<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <p class="MsoNormal">I don't see this difference here (message
            overload versus resource overload ? ) . To me, SOC focuses
            on source shedding, while SCE seems to focus on improved
            load distribution, just like our proposal.<span
              style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
              font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
              color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
              font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
              color: rgb(0, 176, 80);">PEJ: A peer device might be able
              to handle 18,000 new sessions, but perhaps it can only
              handle them at a rate of 100 per second.&nbsp; We would use SCE
              to determine that a peer can handle new sessions, while we
              would use the methods SOC is defining to prevent message
              overload so we do not send 200 INVITEs per second to the
              peer.&nbsp; (Use of the SOC mechanism might prove to work
              better than our current round-robin approach, but we&#8217;ve
              not tested it.)</span><span style="color: rgb(0, 176,
              80);"> </span><br>
            <br>
            <o:p></o:p></p>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>Note that the "round-robin" approach may or may not be preferred and is not<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>required in our draft.&nbsp; I've found this approach works pretty well, but one<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>may prefer to use a particular weighting that is more complex.&nbsp; I don't<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>think local decisions in the box need to be subject to standardization: we<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>just need to standardize the signaling to enable such decisions.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <p class="MsoNormal">I believe the signaling is not enough.
            The deep meaning of the feedback parameter needs to be
            clarified too. <br>
            For example, in our proposal, the feedback is simply the
            current utilization rate of the node (very simple).<span
              style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
              font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
              color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
              font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
              color: rgb(0, 176, 80);">PEJ: That sounds similar to SCE.&nbsp;
              An SCE-capable device advertises to its peer how many new
              sessions it can handle given the number of sessions it is
              currently handling.</span> <br>
            <br>
            Also the expectation needs to be clarified because it has a
            very important impact on the recommended behavior in case of
            overload. <br>
            The solution that we propose constantly tries to balance
            load in the cluster of servers. Therefore, in case the SOC
            shedding kicks in, there is NOT NEED to repeat the message
            elsewhere in the cluster because it is balanced already (So
            no other server has more capacity). This is a huge advantage
            for the network stability as message repeat tends to spread
            the overload and collapse the cluster. <br>
            <br>
            <o:p></o:p></p>
          <pre>In any case, it certainly looks like we're thinking along the same lines.<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <p class="MsoNormal">Yes I agree. <br>
            <br>
            <span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
              font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
              color: rgb(0, 176, 80);">PEJ: If you haven&#8217;t already, have
              a look at our draft:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
              font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
              color: rgb(0, 176, 80);"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
                href="http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jones-sip-overload-sce-00"><span
                  style="color: rgb(0, 176, 80);">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jones-sip-overload-sce-00</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
              font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
              color: rgb(0, 176, 80);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
              font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
              color: rgb(0, 176, 80);">It is now expired, but your draft
              suggests there is still life in this approach.&nbsp; We should
              look to harmonize them, perhaps.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
              font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
              color: rgb(0, 176, 80);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
              font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
              color: rgb(0, 176, 80);">Paul<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
              font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
              color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
            Cordially, <br>
            <br>
            Thierry<br>
            <br>
            <o:p></o:p></p>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>Paul<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;">
            <pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>From: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dispatch-bounces@ietf.org">dispatch-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dispatch-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dispatch-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Behalf Of Vijay K. Gurbani<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 6:38 PM<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>To: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dispatch@ietf.org">dispatch@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <pre>Paul: Thank you for your input.&nbsp; More inline.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <pre>On 03/07/2011 05:14 PM, Paul Kyzivat wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;">
              <pre>Vijay,<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>IIUC, the algorithm you have proposed is similar to the one Paul Jones<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>has proposed - with the main difference being the numeric range of the<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>weight. Do I have that right?<o:p></o:p></pre>
            </blockquote>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <pre>I believe that Paul J.'s algorithm is more suited towards overload<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>control, not load balancing (and I will await Paul J.'s correction to my<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>assertion).<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <pre>The intent in draft-bessis-dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing is to<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>*always* report the current load to give the upstream SIP proxy an<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>indication of the health of the SIP server in the cluster.&nbsp; If one waits<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>until overload is imminent, then it may be too late since a sudden and<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>unanticipated burst of messages will put the SIP server in overload<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>rather quickly.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;">
              <pre>It isn't clear to me from your draft if you are specifying the<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>algorithm by which the relative weights are used to determine the<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>probability of a request going to one server or another.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            </blockquote>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <pre>Yes, same way as RFC2782 does it.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;">
              <pre>ISTM that it *does* matter. And it especially matters if there is an<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>implication that the upstream node's algorithm may depend on some<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>assumption or knowledge about the downstream nodes.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            </blockquote>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <pre>No knowledge, just a reported number that the upstream SIP proxy can<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>treat as a RFC2782-like weight indicator.&nbsp; Today, rfc3263-resolution<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>starts off with the SRV indicators in RFC2782, without any regard to<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>additional knowledge or assumption about downstream nodes.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing is trying to use the same model, except<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>render the weight to be sensitive to the current traffic in the cluster<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>in real-time.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;">
              <pre>And of course this method of reporting weights isn't sufficient to<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>drive a balancing algorithm that is sensitive to some requests<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>requiring more or different resources than others. (That seems to be a<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>real problem, though I don't know if we have a real solution for<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>it.)<o:p></o:p></pre>
            </blockquote>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <pre>Yes, that is a real problem, as is the problem of a SIP server in a<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>cluster that has a low weight and is thus not contacted with enough<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>frequency to merit more participation to the goodput.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <pre>It is well known in SIP that some methods are more onerous to process<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>than others --- from a proxying point of view, processing an INVITE with<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>forking and response aggregation is far more detrimental to resource<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>usage than is processing a BYE.&nbsp; Some existing literature techniques<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>thus add a coefficient to the weight of sending an INVITE versus a BYE.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>At this time, the process outlined in dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>treats all requests the same, but we can definitely look at ways to<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>change this behaviour.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <pre>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
            <pre>- vijay<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>--<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Vijay K. Gurbani, Bell Laboratories, Alcatel-Lucent<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>1960 Lucent Lane, Rm. 9C-533, Naperville, Illinois 60566 (USA)<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Email: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:vkg@%7bbell-labs.com,acm.org%7d">vkg@{bell-labs.com,acm.org}</a> / <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:vijay.gurbani@alcatel-lucent.com">vijay.gurbani@alcatel-lucent.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Web:&nbsp;&nbsp; <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://ect.bell-labs.com/who/vkg/">http://ect.bell-labs.com/who/vkg/</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>dispatch mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dispatch@ietf.org">dispatch@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
          </blockquote>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>dispatch mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dispatch@ietf.org">dispatch@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal">-- <br>
              <b><span style="font-size: 24pt; font-family: &quot;French
                  Script MT&quot;;">-- <br>
                  Cordially, <br>
                  Thierry Bessis</span></b> <o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp; <span style="font-family:
                &quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;">IMS Solution:
                Architecture &amp; Product Management - ALTA Member<br>
                &nbsp; Organization: ALU &gt; Carrier group &gt; Wireline BU
                &gt;&nbsp;</span><b> </b>IMS Sol Arch, SE, PdM<br>
              <img id="_x0000_i1025"
                src="cid:part1.00080902.05030500@alcatel-lucent.com"
                alt="Alcatel-Lucent" border="0" height="104" width="299"><br>
              &nbsp; <span style="font-family:
                &quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;">1960 Lucent
                Lane - Room 6L-517<br>
                &nbsp; Naperville, IL&nbsp; 60563&nbsp; U S<br>
                &nbsp; Tel/Fax: +1 630 979 7989<br>
                &nbsp; Corporate IM: tbessis&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - Yahoo IM:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
                thierry_bessis</span><br>
              <br>
              <span style="font-size: 10pt;">My WEB page:&nbsp;&nbsp; <a
                  moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="http://ihgpweb.ih.lucent.com/%7Etbessis/">http://ihgpweb.ih.lucent.com/~tbessis/</a><br>
                My Calendar:&nbsp;&nbsp; <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="http://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=new_frs3175%40yahoo.fr">www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=new_frs3175%40yahoo.fr</a><br>
                ALTA Hot Line: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="http://alta.all.alcatel-lucent.com/hotline">http://alta.all.alcatel-lucent.com/hotline</a></span><br>
              <br>
              <span style="font-size: 10pt;">Conference information:<br>
                2801 2801 (US):+1 800 771 8734 - (F):+33 800 941 674 -
                Access Code: 9797989<br>
                others countries see: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="http://all.alcatel-lucent.com/audio">http://all.alcatel-lucent.com/audio</a></span><br>
              <br>
              <b><span style="font-size: 18pt; font-family: &quot;French
                  Script MT&quot;;">Upcoming planned Business Trip: 12
                  April - 14 April 2011</span></b><br>
              <b><span style="font-size: 18pt; font-family: &quot;French
                  Script MT&quot;;">Upcoming planned Vacation: None</span></b>
              <o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
      <pre wrap="">
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
_______________________________________________
dispatch mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dispatch@ietf.org">dispatch@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
      <meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
        http-equiv="Content-Type">
      <title>Thierry's signature</title>
      <meta content="Thierry Bessis" name="author">
      <big style="font-weight: bold;"><big><big><span
              style="font-family: French Script MT;">-- <br>
              Cordially, <br>
            </span></big></big></big><big style="font-weight: bold;"><big><big><span
              style="font-family: French Script MT;">Thierry Bessis</span></big></big></big>
      <div> </div>
      <div> </div>
      &nbsp;
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">IMS Solution: Architecture
        &amp; Product Management - ALTA Member</span><br
        style="font-family: Arial;">
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">&nbsp; Organization: ALU &gt; Carrier
        group &gt;
        Wireline BU &gt;&nbsp;</span><b> </b>IMS Sol Arch, SE, PdM<br>
      <img style="width: 242px; height: 66px;" alt="Alcatel-Lucent"
        src="cid:part2.06000807.08040207@alcatel-lucent.com"><br>
      &nbsp;
      <span style="font-family: Arial;"></span><span style="font-family:
        Arial;">1960 Lucent Lane - Room 6L-517</span><br
        style="font-family: Arial;">
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">&nbsp; Naperville, IL&nbsp;
        60563&nbsp; U
        S</span><br style="font-family: Arial;">
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">&nbsp; Tel/Fax: +1 630 979 7989</span><br
        style="font-family: Arial;">
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">&nbsp; Corporate IM:
        tbessis&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
        - Yahoo IM:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
        thierry_bessis</span><br>
      <br>
      <small>My WEB page:&nbsp;&nbsp; <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://ihgpweb.ih.lucent.com/~tbessis/">http://ihgpweb.ih.lucent.com/~tbessis/</a><br>
        My Calendar:&nbsp;&nbsp;
        <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=new_frs3175%40yahoo.fr">www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=new_frs3175%40yahoo.fr</a><br>
        ALTA Hot Line: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://alta.all.alcatel-lucent.com/hotline">http://alta.all.alcatel-lucent.com/hotline</a></small><br>
      <br>
      <small>Conference information:<br>
        2801 2801 (US):+1 800 771 8734 - (F):+33 800 941 674 - Access
        Code:
        9797989<br>
        others countries see: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://all.alcatel-lucent.com/audio">http://all.alcatel-lucent.com/audio</a></small><br>
      <br>
      <big style="font-weight: bold;"><big><span style="font-family:
            French Script MT;">Upcoming planned Business Trip:
            12 April - 14 April 2011</span></big></big><br>
      <big style="font-weight: bold;"><big><span style="font-family:
            French Script MT;">Upcoming planned Vacation: None</span></big></big>
    </div>
  </body>
</html>

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Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2011 11:36:43 -0600
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Thread-Topic: [dispatch] SIP load balancing
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References: <4D755B9E.6030008@bell-labs.com>	<4D7566C1.40605@cisco.com><4D756C47.1000509@bell-labs.com>	<4D7633F9.7000608@cisco.com><4D768BEE.2060400@bell-labs.com>	<4D7698FD.4030501@cisco.com><4D76A762.6090708@bell-labs.com>, <4D76C924.7050900@cisco.com> <CD5674C3CD99574EBA7432465FC13C1B220B5C155E@DC-US1MBEX4.global.avaya.com>
From: "Mike Hammer (hmmr)" <hmmr@cisco.com>
To: "Worley, Dale R (Dale)" <dworley@avaya.com>, "Paul Kyzivat (pkyzivat)" <pkyzivat@cisco.com>, "Vijay K. Gurbani" <vkg@bell-labs.com>
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Mar 2011 17:36:44.0536 (UTC) FILETIME=[8EEE6780:01CBDE80]
Cc: dispatch@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing
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Agree with this.  If loads are not uniform, but bursty, then the
algorithm for the former may fail the latter.

Mike


-----Original Message-----
From: dispatch-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:dispatch-bounces@ietf.org] On
Behalf Of Worley, Dale R (Dale)
Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 12:10 PM
To: Paul Kyzivat (pkyzivat); Vijay K. Gurbani
Cc: dispatch@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing

This is a fascinating subject.  On the way home from work, I started to
frame a set of differential equations to model it.

The key, of course, is to have all of the servers reach full capacity
*at the same time* if the presented load increases steadily.  That is
how we maximize goodput under such circumstances.  (If there is spare
capacity within the cluster of servers, it doesn't matter if the load on
the servers is balanced or not, as goodput equals presented load.)

The crucial questions are "What is the algorithm for generating the
number that the server presents to the load balancer?" and "What
algorithm does the load balancer use for assigning work, given the
numbers presented by the servers?"

The draft (draft-bessis-dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing-00) seems to
assume that the assignment algorithm is much the same as RFC 3263, to
statistically send Wi/(sum(Wj)) of the load to server i (with Wi being
the number reported by server i).  The draft gives little or no hint of
what the generation algorithm will be.

In order for the mechanism to be standardized in a meaningful way, it
must specify the generation algorithm sufficiently that a combination of
servers that use generation algorithms in conformance with the standard
will work together correctly -- as I said above, as the entire cluster
nears full capacity, all servers much reach full capacity
simultaneously.

t seems that we need to do a careful analysis of the behavior of the
system near the point where "unused capacity of server i" is near 0 for
all servers i.  The first question is to categorize generation functions
by their behavior near the point "unused capacity =3D 0", that is, does
the reported "weight" approach a non-zero number, does it approach zero
linearly, does it approach zero quadratically, etc.?  I suspect that the
system behaves well only when all servers use functions of the same
form, and with the same constant on the leading term.  Intuitively, the
correct answer seems to be to have the weight be "the unused capacity,
measured in number of calls that can be handled".

This gets messier when we consider that the load is comes in quantized
units (single calls) and has significant statistical fluctuations.  In
particular, some functions that appear to work correctly in the
"analytical" analysis outlined above my have bad behavior when presented
with statistical fluctuations.

Additionally, the feedback from the servers to the load balancer will
not be instantaneous, and the delays will introduce "control loop
delays", which if not handled correctly might cause the system to
oscillate.

A different problem results from the fact that different calls may
present decidedly different loads to a server, and that the server may
have several different types of resource.  How does the server sensibly
report the nature of its resources and the loading on each?  How does
the load balancer estimate the resources required by an individual call?
(Note that this problem is largely nonexistent in circuit-switched
systems, as all calls present exactly the same load.)  (This is the
problem that has bedevilled attempts to solve the problem in
draft-partha-sip-overload-resource-availability.)

But I don't see any of the needed analysis in the draft, and I don't see
any indication in the draft of a realization that this analysis needs to
be done.  Until that is fixed, I predict that a solution will not be
found, or worse, a solution that appears to work on paper but does not
work in practice.

Dale
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From pkyzivat@cisco.com  Wed Mar  9 09:42:13 2011
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Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing
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On 3/9/2011 12:08 PM, Vijay K. Gurbani wrote:

> Taking your example, let's say that there are two servers and
> srv1 advertises a "weight" of 32,000 and srv2 advertises a
> "weight" of 4,000. As load increases, srv1 decreases its
> "weight" by 1/2 each time period (i.e., at time T0, "weight" was
> 32,000; at T1 it advertises a "weight" of 16,000; at T2 8,000;
> at T3 4,000; at T4 2,000). Let's also assume that srv2 keeps
> its "weight" constant at 4,000.
>
> At T4, the "weight" of srv1 is less than that of srv2. Up until T4,
> srv1 will get about 80% of the traffic (assuming only these two
> servers and a constant "weight" of 4,000 for srv2). At T4 and beyond,
> srv2 picks up more than 90% of the traffic, relieving srv1.
>
> Convergence is predicated on the delta between T_n and T_(n+1).
> If the delta is larger, it will take a bit more time to converge.

Hmm. Clearly I'm missing something, since I see no mention of capacity 
in the above. Certainly remaining capacity of the server needs to enter 
into the computation of the weight.

I suspect maybe this needs to be thoroughly discussed over beer.
And with Dale in the discussion.

	Thanks,
	Paul

From Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com  Wed Mar  9 09:48:13 2011
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Hi Paul,

Please see my comment.
>>     While I do not claim that the "weight" scheme is perfect, I think 
>> the
>> bounds for ambiguity are much less with this approach. All the
>> upstream SIP proxy needs is a "weight" indicator that it will
>> use in a RFC2782-type algorithm to proportionally send as much traffic
>> to a downstream SIP server as it has indicated (i.e., higher "weight"
>> values will get proportionally more traffic). This is much better
>> than round-robin, and furthermore, there is no requirement that each
>> downstream SIP server in the cluster set its "weight" in a manner
>> consistent with other servers, or even that the "weight" values of two
>> SIP servers be comparable.
>
> I don't understand that.
> Suppose we have two servers that are identical except that they have 
> different understandings of the weight assignment algorithm.
> One thinks it is a powerful server, and sets its initial (unloaded) 
> weight to 32k. The other thinks that it is not especially powerful as 
> servers go, and so sets its weight to 4k.
That is not how we implemented this weight: The weight is NOT an 
estimation of the capacity, it is a (smoothed) _measurement_ of the 
resource available.  Weight of 1 means that you have NO resource 
available (no CPU, or no Memory, or you are missing anything else 
required to process new sessions). Weight of <maximum> means that you 
have ALL your resources available (you are IDLE basically). This is a 
relative data: the same weight used by different servers does NOT 
represent the same capacity ! It represents the same relative load. This 
is consistent with the fact that we are trying to load all the server at 
the same relative load. In your example, the server does not need to 
know anything about its power or capacity, and even less about the 
capacity of the neighbors. It does not need to count anything, or 
understand why and how its resource vary with the number of instances: 
it just measures the resources.
>>
>> I am starting to believe that this property --- being sensitive to
>> the processing requirements of some requests versus others --- is
>> more pertinent to overload control than it is to load balancing.
>> The "weight" approach normalizes the processing load at a SIP server
>> in the cluster and reports a canonical value regardless of the specific
>> *type* of request the SIP server can handle. If the SIP server is
>> handling a lot of resource-heavy INVITE transactions, then it will
>> report a lower "weight" value.
>
> The thing is, a server may be able to handle a lot of some type of 
> load while being totally out of capacity for some other type of load.
>
> (E.g. a box that is both an SBC to a provider sip trunk and a gw to 
> some PSTN lines. It might be totally out of PSTN lines yet be able to 
> handle lots of calls that happen to be addressed to that they go to 
> the sip trunk.)
In this case, the mechanism should be applied in two places: one at the 
SBC ingress point, and another one after the PSTN breaking decision has 
been made: I don't see any other way ! :-)
>
> Also, shedding load is harder when the consumed resource is dialog 
> stateful.
I believe we should only shed at the source non Dialog related 
transactions, or new Dialogs.

Cordially,

Thierry
>
> I think this is a hard problem.
>
>     Thanks,
>     Paul
>
>> - vijay
> _______________________________________________
> dispatch mailing list
> dispatch@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch

-- 
-- 
Cordially,
Thierry Bessis
IMS Solution: Architecture & Product Management - ALTA Member
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    Hi Paul, <br>
    <br>
    Please see my comment. <br>
    <blockquote cite="mid:4D7698FD.4030501@cisco.com" type="cite">
      <blockquote type="cite">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; While I do not claim that the "weight"
        scheme is perfect, I think the
        <br>
        bounds for ambiguity are much less with this approach. All the
        <br>
        upstream SIP proxy needs is a "weight" indicator that it will
        <br>
        use in a RFC2782-type algorithm to proportionally send as much
        traffic
        <br>
        to a downstream SIP server as it has indicated (i.e., higher
        "weight"
        <br>
        values will get proportionally more traffic). This is much
        better
        <br>
        than round-robin, and furthermore, there is no requirement that
        each
        <br>
        downstream SIP server in the cluster set its "weight" in a
        manner
        <br>
        consistent with other servers, or even that the "weight" values
        of two
        <br>
        SIP servers be comparable.
        <br>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      I don't understand that.
      <br>
      Suppose we have two servers that are identical except that they
      have different understandings of the weight assignment algorithm.
      <br>
      One thinks it is a powerful server, and sets its initial
      (unloaded) weight to 32k. The other thinks that it is not
      especially powerful as servers go, and so sets its weight to 4k.
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    That is not how we implemented this weight: The weight is NOT an
    estimation of the capacity, it is a (smoothed) <big><u>measurement</u></big>
    of the resource available.&nbsp; Weight of 1 means that you have NO
    resource available (no CPU, or no Memory, or you are missing
    anything else required to process new sessions). Weight of
    &lt;maximum&gt; means that you have ALL your resources available
    (you are IDLE basically). This is a relative data: the same weight
    used by different servers does NOT represent the same capacity ! It
    represents the same relative load. This is consistent with the fact
    that we are trying to load all the server at the same relative load.
    In your example, the server does not need to know anything about its
    power or capacity, and even less about the capacity of the
    neighbors. It does not need to count anything, or understand why and
    how its resource vary with the number of instances: it just measures
    the resources. <br>
    <blockquote cite="mid:4D7698FD.4030501@cisco.com" type="cite">
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <br>
        I am starting to believe that this property --- being sensitive
        to
        <br>
        the processing requirements of some requests versus others ---
        is
        <br>
        more pertinent to overload control than it is to load balancing.
        <br>
        The "weight" approach normalizes the processing load at a SIP
        server
        <br>
        in the cluster and reports a canonical value regardless of the
        specific
        <br>
        *type* of request the SIP server can handle. If the SIP server
        is
        <br>
        handling a lot of resource-heavy INVITE transactions, then it
        will
        <br>
        report a lower "weight" value.
        <br>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      The thing is, a server may be able to handle a lot of some type of
      load while being totally out of capacity for some other type of
      load.
      <br>
      <br>
      (E.g. a box that is both an SBC to a provider sip trunk and a gw
      to some PSTN lines. It might be totally out of PSTN lines yet be
      able to handle lots of calls that happen to be addressed to that
      they go to the sip trunk.)
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    In this case, the mechanism should be applied in two places: one at
    the SBC ingress point, and another one after the PSTN breaking
    decision has been made: I don't see any other way ! <span
      class="moz-smiley-s1"><span> :-) </span></span><br>
    <blockquote cite="mid:4D7698FD.4030501@cisco.com" type="cite">
      <br>
      Also, shedding load is harder when the consumed resource is dialog
      stateful.
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    I believe we should only shed at the source non Dialog related
    transactions, or new Dialogs. <br>
    <br>
    Cordially,<br>
    <br>
    Thierry<br>
    <blockquote cite="mid:4D7698FD.4030501@cisco.com" type="cite">
      <br>
      I think this is a hard problem.
      <br>
      <br>
      &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Thanks,
      <br>
      &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Paul
      <br>
      <br>
      <blockquote type="cite">- vijay
        <br>
      </blockquote>
      _______________________________________________
      <br>
      dispatch mailing list
      <br>
      <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dispatch@ietf.org">dispatch@ietf.org</a>
      <br>
      <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch</a>
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
      <meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
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      <title>Thierry's signature</title>
      <meta content="Thierry Bessis" name="author">
      <big style="font-weight: bold;"><big><big><span
              style="font-family: French Script MT;">-- <br>
              Cordially, <br>
            </span></big></big></big><big style="font-weight: bold;"><big><big><span
              style="font-family: French Script MT;">Thierry Bessis</span></big></big></big>
      <div> </div>
      <div> </div>
      &nbsp;
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">IMS Solution: Architecture
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      <small>My WEB page:&nbsp;&nbsp; <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://ihgpweb.ih.lucent.com/~tbessis/">http://ihgpweb.ih.lucent.com/~tbessis/</a><br>
        My Calendar:&nbsp;&nbsp;
        <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=new_frs3175%40yahoo.fr">www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=new_frs3175%40yahoo.fr</a><br>
        ALTA Hot Line: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://alta.all.alcatel-lucent.com/hotline">http://alta.all.alcatel-lucent.com/hotline</a></small><br>
      <br>
      <small>Conference information:<br>
        2801 2801 (US):+1 800 771 8734 - (F):+33 800 941 674 - Access
        Code:
        9797989<br>
        others countries see: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://all.alcatel-lucent.com/audio">http://all.alcatel-lucent.com/audio</a></small><br>
      <br>
      <big style="font-weight: bold;"><big><span style="font-family:
            French Script MT;">Upcoming planned Business Trip:
            12 April - 14 April 2011</span></big></big><br>
      <big style="font-weight: bold;"><big><span style="font-family:
            French Script MT;">Upcoming planned Vacation: None</span></big></big>
    </div>
  </body>
</html>

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--------------000403030202040903000009--

--------------050308000000020106060506--

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To: "Mike Hammer (hmmr)" <hmmr@cisco.com>, "Paul Kyzivat (pkyzivat)" <pkyzivat@cisco.com>, "Vijay K. Gurbani" <vkg@bell-labs.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2011 13:39:29 -0500
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Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing
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________________________________________
From: Mike Hammer (hmmr) [hmmr@cisco.com]

Agree with this.  If loads are not uniform, but bursty, then the
algorithm for the former may fail the latter.
_______________________________________________

(1) We *know* the loads are bursty.

(2) If the system has a uniform load that exceeds capacity, the administrat=
ors will install more capacity.

The only interesting case, in practice, is non-uniform loads near capacity.

(We can make a reasonable estimate of what is "near capacity".  If calls ar=
e assigned randomly in proportion to each server's total capacity (via RFC =
3263), each server will on average get its fair share of the traffic, with =
a random variation around that average of approximately the square-root of =
the average traffic it receives.  So if a server can handle N calls, as lon=
g as the average load it is given is less than N minus square-root(N), then=
 RFC 3263 will suffice.  The interesting problem is when the load presented=
 to the system requires loading the servers in excess of that level.)

We still haven't demonstrated that the "obvious" strategy does not work in =
practice:  If a server is overloaded, it rejects the INVITE and the load ba=
lancer forks the INVITE to another server.

Dale

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Thread-Topic: [dispatch] SIP load balancing
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References: <4D755B9E.6030008@bell-labs.com><4D7566C1.40605@cisco.com><4D756C47.1000509@bell-labs.com><4D7633F9.7000608@cisco.com><4D768BEE.2060400@bell-labs.com><4D7698FD.4030501@cisco.com><4D76A762.6090708@bell-labs.com>, <4D76C924.7050900@cisco.com> <CD5674C3CD99574EBA7432465FC13C1B220B5C155E@DC-US1MBEX4.global.avaya.com>, <C4064AF1C9EC1F40868C033DB94958C703FFE2E1@XMB-RCD-111.cisco.com> <CD5674C3CD99574EBA7432465FC13C1B220B5C1568@DC-US1MBEX4.global.avaya.com>
From: "Mike Hammer (hmmr)" <hmmr@cisco.com>
To: "Worley, Dale R (Dale)" <dworley@avaya.com>, "Paul Kyzivat (pkyzivat)" <pkyzivat@cisco.com>, "Vijay K. Gurbani" <vkg@bell-labs.com>
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Cc: dispatch@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing
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Dale,

I am thinking of loads in two dimensions, if that is on the table:
 - signaling from the arrival rate of SIP INVITEs as an example, can be
bursty while the resource to handle SIP might be not so bursty,
 - media in terms of whether this is only uniform demand of PSTN ports
or voice calls, versus narrowband voice request versus HD video
Telepresence request, where the resources to meet that mix of demand
might be deemed bursty.

This thread has touched on several of these areas, much the way 4 guys
are describing the elephant. :)

Mike


-----Original Message-----
From: Worley, Dale R (Dale) [mailto:dworley@avaya.com]=20
Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 1:39 PM
To: Mike Hammer (hmmr); Paul Kyzivat (pkyzivat); Vijay K. Gurbani
Cc: dispatch@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [dispatch] SIP load balancing

________________________________________
From: Mike Hammer (hmmr) [hmmr@cisco.com]

Agree with this.  If loads are not uniform, but bursty, then the
algorithm for the former may fail the latter.
_______________________________________________

(1) We *know* the loads are bursty.

(2) If the system has a uniform load that exceeds capacity, the
administrators will install more capacity.

The only interesting case, in practice, is non-uniform loads near
capacity.

(We can make a reasonable estimate of what is "near capacity".  If calls
are assigned randomly in proportion to each server's total capacity (via
RFC 3263), each server will on average get its fair share of the
traffic, with a random variation around that average of approximately
the square-root of the average traffic it receives.  So if a server can
handle N calls, as long as the average load it is given is less than N
minus square-root(N), then RFC 3263 will suffice.  The interesting
problem is when the load presented to the system requires loading the
servers in excess of that level.)

We still haven't demonstrated that the "obvious" strategy does not work
in practice:  If a server is overloaded, it rejects the INVITE and the
load balancer forks the INVITE to another server.

Dale

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References: <4D755B9E.6030008@bell-labs.com>	<4D7566C1.40605@cisco.com>	<4D756C47.1000509@bell-labs.com>	<4D7633F9.7000608@cisco.com>	<4D768BEE.2060400@bell-labs.com>	<4D7698FD.4030501@cisco.com>	<4D76A762.6090708@bell-labs.com>, <4D76C924.7050900@cisco.com> <CD5674C3CD99574EBA7432465FC13C1B220B5C155E@DC-US1MBEX4.global.avaya.com>
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Dale,

Please see my comments.

On 09-Mar-2011 11:10, Worley, Dale R (Dale) wrote:
> This is a fascinating subject.  On the way home from work, I started to frame a set of differential equations to model it.
>
> The key, of course, is to have all of the servers reach full capacity *at the same time* if the presented load increases steadily.  That is how we maximize goodput under such circumstances.  (If there is spare capacity within the cluster of servers, it doesn't matter if the load on the servers is balanced or not, as goodput equals presented load.)
>
> The crucial questions are "What is the algorithm for generating the number that the server presents to the load balancer?"
If you have read my previous comments, we suggest there is no algorithm 
per se: this is a measurement of the resource: If you measure the CPU 
and the Memory (for example), you'll take the smallest. It is better to 
smooth (with a 10s sliding window average for instance) the number.

> and "What algorithm does the load balancer use for assigning work, given the numbers presented by the servers?"
Isn't the one described in DNS explicit enough ? You just need to 
requesting a random number from 1 to the sum of the weights and choose 
the server accordingly.
> In order for the mechanism to be standardized in a meaningful way, it must specify the generation algorithm sufficiently that a combination of servers that use generation algorithms in conformance with the standard will work together correctly -- as I said above, as the entire cluster nears full capacity, all servers much reach full capacity simultaneously.
Exactly !
> t seems that we need to do a careful analysis of the behavior of the system near the point where "unused capacity of server i" is near 0 for all servers i.  The first question is to categorize generation functions by their behavior near the point "unused capacity = 0", that is, does the reported "weight" approach a non-zero number, does it approach zero linearly, does it approach zero quadratically, etc.?  I suspect that the system behaves well only when all servers use functions of the same form, and with the same constant on the leading term.  Intuitively, the correct answer seems to be to have the weight be "the unused capacity, measured in number of calls that can be handled".
This is not what we have in mind: the weight should be your relative 
resource usage. (0 - 100%). Using the proposed algorithm, this insure 
that servers reach full capacity simultaneously (even when they have 
vastly different capacities).
> This gets messier when we consider that the load is comes in quantized units (single calls) and has significant statistical fluctuations.  In particular, some functions that appear to work correctly in the "analytical" analysis outlined above my have bad behavior when presented with statistical fluctuations.
Agreed. In a signaling network such as IMS, CPU usage typically needs to 
be averaged over 10s to smooth the curve. Memory usage is already an 
integration, so it can typically be used as is.
> Additionally, the feedback from the servers to the load balancer will not be instantaneous, and the delays will introduce "control loop delays", which if not handled correctly might cause the system to oscillate.
Yes, this is true. We are successfully using the simple algorithm 
mentioned with DNS (where we update the weight every minute). Otherwise 
they are algorithms that can be used to improve the oscillation in the 
feedback chain command. We think that since we are proposing a default 
one that works, this should be OK.
> A different problem results from the fact that different calls may present decidedly different loads to a server, and that the server may have several different types of resource.  How does the server sensibly report the nature of its resources and the loading on each?  How does the load balancer estimate the resources required by an individual call?  (Note that this problem is largely nonexistent in circuit-switched systems, as all calls present exactly the same load.)  (This is the problem that has bedevilled attempts to solve the problem in draft-partha-sip-overload-resource-availability.)
This is why I suggest that the weight should just be a measurement of 
the relative resource usage: then none of those issues seems to exist.
Another advantage is that it is far more robust: the capacity can evolve 
based on whatever is happening on the server, and everything is not call 
related (Consider the case where the server is doing a re-synch with its 
mate: during sometime, its ability to process new calls will be 
considerably less and it would be preferable that less calls get in 
during that time.
> But I don't see any of the needed analysis in the draft, and I don't see any indication in the draft of a realization that this analysis needs to be done.  Until that is fixed, I predict that a solution will not be found, or worse, a solution that appears to work on paper but does not work in practice.
This solution works in practice: we are using it in ALU between 
components and nodes that are in the same NE (we currently use a 
proprietary transport mechanism to return the weights).

Cordially,

Thierry
> Dale
> _______________________________________________
> dispatch mailing list
> dispatch@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch

-- 
-- 
Cordially,
Thierry Bessis
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    Dale, <br>
    <br>
    Please see my comments.<br>
    <br>
    On 09-Mar-2011 11:10, Worley, Dale R (Dale) wrote:
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CD5674C3CD99574EBA7432465FC13C1B220B5C155E@DC-US1MBEX4.global.avaya.com"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">This is a fascinating subject.  On the way home from work, I started to frame a set of differential equations to model it.

The key, of course, is to have all of the servers reach full capacity *at the same time* if the presented load increases steadily.  That is how we maximize goodput under such circumstances.  (If there is spare capacity within the cluster of servers, it doesn't matter if the load on the servers is balanced or not, as goodput equals presented load.)

The crucial questions are "What is the algorithm for generating the number that the server presents to the load balancer?" </pre>
    </blockquote>
    If you have read my previous comments, we suggest there is no
    algorithm per se: this is a measurement of the resource: If you
    measure the CPU and the Memory (for example), you'll take the
    smallest. It is better to smooth (with a 10s sliding window average
    for instance) the number. <br>
    <br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CD5674C3CD99574EBA7432465FC13C1B220B5C155E@DC-US1MBEX4.global.avaya.com"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">and "What algorithm does the load balancer use for assigning work, given the numbers presented by the servers?"
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    Isn't the one described in DNS explicit enough ? You just need to
    requesting a random number from 1 to the sum of the weights and
    choose the server accordingly. <br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CD5674C3CD99574EBA7432465FC13C1B220B5C155E@DC-US1MBEX4.global.avaya.com"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">In order for the mechanism to be standardized in a meaningful way, it must specify the generation algorithm sufficiently that a combination of servers that use generation algorithms in conformance with the standard will work together correctly -- as I said above, as the entire cluster nears full capacity, all servers much reach full capacity simultaneously.
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    Exactly ! <br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CD5674C3CD99574EBA7432465FC13C1B220B5C155E@DC-US1MBEX4.global.avaya.com"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">
t seems that we need to do a careful analysis of the behavior of the system near the point where "unused capacity of server i" is near 0 for all servers i.  The first question is to categorize generation functions by their behavior near the point "unused capacity = 0", that is, does the reported "weight" approach a non-zero number, does it approach zero linearly, does it approach zero quadratically, etc.?  I suspect that the system behaves well only when all servers use functions of the same form, and with the same constant on the leading term.  Intuitively, the correct answer seems to be to have the weight be "the unused capacity, measured in number of calls that can be handled".
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    This is not what we have in mind: the weight should be your relative
    resource usage. (0 - 100%). Using the proposed algorithm, this
    insure that servers reach full capacity simultaneously (even when
    they have vastly different capacities). <br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CD5674C3CD99574EBA7432465FC13C1B220B5C155E@DC-US1MBEX4.global.avaya.com"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">
This gets messier when we consider that the load is comes in quantized units (single calls) and has significant statistical fluctuations.  In particular, some functions that appear to work correctly in the "analytical" analysis outlined above my have bad behavior when presented with statistical fluctuations.
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    Agreed. In a signaling network such as IMS, CPU usage typically
    needs to be averaged over 10s to smooth the curve. Memory usage is
    already an integration, so it can typically be used as is. <br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CD5674C3CD99574EBA7432465FC13C1B220B5C155E@DC-US1MBEX4.global.avaya.com"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">
Additionally, the feedback from the servers to the load balancer will not be instantaneous, and the delays will introduce "control loop delays", which if not handled correctly might cause the system to oscillate.
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    Yes, this is true. We are successfully using the simple algorithm
    mentioned with DNS (where we update the weight every minute).
    Otherwise they are algorithms that can be used to improve the
    oscillation in the feedback chain command. We think that since we
    are proposing a default one that works, this should be OK. <br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CD5674C3CD99574EBA7432465FC13C1B220B5C155E@DC-US1MBEX4.global.avaya.com"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">
A different problem results from the fact that different calls may present decidedly different loads to a server, and that the server may have several different types of resource.  How does the server sensibly report the nature of its resources and the loading on each?  How does the load balancer estimate the resources required by an individual call?  (Note that this problem is largely nonexistent in circuit-switched systems, as all calls present exactly the same load.)  (This is the problem that has bedevilled attempts to solve the problem in draft-partha-sip-overload-resource-availability.)
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    This is why I suggest that the weight should just be a measurement
    of the relative resource usage: then none of those issues seems to
    exist. <br>
    Another advantage is that it is far more robust: the capacity can
    evolve based on whatever is happening on the server, and everything
    is not call related (Consider the case where the server is doing a
    re-synch with its mate: during sometime, its ability to process new
    calls will be considerably less and it would be preferable that less
    calls get in during that time. <br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CD5674C3CD99574EBA7432465FC13C1B220B5C155E@DC-US1MBEX4.global.avaya.com"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">
But I don't see any of the needed analysis in the draft, and I don't see any indication in the draft of a realization that this analysis needs to be done.  Until that is fixed, I predict that a solution will not be found, or worse, a solution that appears to work on paper but does not work in practice.
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    This solution works in practice: we are using it in ALU between
    components and nodes that are in the same NE (we currently use a
    proprietary transport mechanism to return the weights). <br>
    <br>
    Cordially, <br>
    <br>
    Thierry<br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CD5674C3CD99574EBA7432465FC13C1B220B5C155E@DC-US1MBEX4.global.avaya.com"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">
Dale
_______________________________________________
dispatch mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dispatch@ietf.org">dispatch@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
      <meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
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      <title>Thierry's signature</title>
      <meta content="Thierry Bessis" name="author">
      <big style="font-weight: bold;"><big><big><span
              style="font-family: French Script MT;">-- <br>
              Cordially, <br>
            </span></big></big></big><big style="font-weight: bold;"><big><big><span
              style="font-family: French Script MT;">Thierry Bessis</span></big></big></big>
      <div> </div>
      <div> </div>
      &nbsp;
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">IMS Solution: Architecture
        &amp; Product Management - ALTA Member</span><br
        style="font-family: Arial;">
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">&nbsp; Organization: ALU &gt; Carrier
        group &gt;
        Wireline BU &gt;&nbsp;</span><b> </b>IMS Sol Arch, SE, PdM<br>
      <img style="width: 242px; height: 66px;" alt="Alcatel-Lucent"
        src="cid:part1.01090304.04070800@alcatel-lucent.com"><br>
      &nbsp;
      <span style="font-family: Arial;"></span><span style="font-family:
        Arial;">1960 Lucent Lane - Room 6L-517</span><br
        style="font-family: Arial;">
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">&nbsp; Naperville, IL&nbsp;
        60563&nbsp; U
        S</span><br style="font-family: Arial;">
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">&nbsp; Tel/Fax: +1 630 979 7989</span><br
        style="font-family: Arial;">
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">&nbsp; Corporate IM:
        tbessis&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
        - Yahoo IM:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
        thierry_bessis</span><br>
      <br>
      <small>My WEB page:&nbsp;&nbsp; <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://ihgpweb.ih.lucent.com/~tbessis/">http://ihgpweb.ih.lucent.com/~tbessis/</a><br>
        My Calendar:&nbsp;&nbsp;
        <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=new_frs3175%40yahoo.fr">www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=new_frs3175%40yahoo.fr</a><br>
        ALTA Hot Line: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://alta.all.alcatel-lucent.com/hotline">http://alta.all.alcatel-lucent.com/hotline</a></small><br>
      <br>
      <small>Conference information:<br>
        2801 2801 (US):+1 800 771 8734 - (F):+33 800 941 674 - Access
        Code:
        9797989<br>
        others countries see: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://all.alcatel-lucent.com/audio">http://all.alcatel-lucent.com/audio</a></small><br>
      <br>
      <big style="font-weight: bold;"><big><span style="font-family:
            French Script MT;">Upcoming planned Business Trip:
            12 April - 14 April 2011</span></big></big><br>
      <big style="font-weight: bold;"><big><span style="font-family:
            French Script MT;">Upcoming planned Vacation: None</span></big></big>
    </div>
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Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2011 14:34:38 -0600
From: Thierry Bessis <Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com>
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To: "Worley, Dale R (Dale)" <dworley@avaya.com>
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Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing
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Dale,

> We still haven't demonstrated that the "obvious" strategy does not work in practice:  If a server is overloaded, it rejects the INVITE and the load balancer forks the INVITE to another server.
My opinion is the proposed SIP balancing mechanism should be employed 
together with the OLC to get the best results. Both systems are 
complementary and work well together.

The strategy to forks invite to other servers in a cluster in case of 
overload does not work in general. This has been demonstrated by 
simulation made by Volker Hilt, and we have experienced this issue as 
well in our Labs : When a cluster is near full capacity, and if nodes 
fork after overload rejection, the system collapses very fast. If the 
cluster is unevenly loaded, you don't even need to be close to full 
(cluster) capacity to collapse ! (Another good reason to be evenly loaded).

Cordially,

Thierry

> Dale
> _______________________________________________
> dispatch mailing list
> dispatch@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch

-- 
-- 
Cordially,
Thierry Bessis
IMS Solution: Architecture & Product Management - ALTA Member
   Organization: ALU > Carrier group > Wireline BU > **IMS Sol Arch, SE, PdM
Alcatel-Lucent
1960 Lucent Lane - Room 6L-517
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Conference information:
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    Dale, <br>
    <br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CD5674C3CD99574EBA7432465FC13C1B220B5C1568@DC-US1MBEX4.global.avaya.com"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">
We still haven't demonstrated that the "obvious" strategy does not work in practice:  If a server is overloaded, it rejects the INVITE and the load balancer forks the INVITE to another server.
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    My opinion is the proposed SIP balancing mechanism should be
    employed together with the OLC to get the best results. Both systems
    are complementary and work well together. <br>
    <br>
    The strategy to forks invite to other servers in a cluster in case
    of overload does not work in general. This has been demonstrated by
    simulation made by Volker Hilt, and we have experienced this issue
    as well in our Labs : When a cluster is near full capacity, and if
    nodes fork after overload rejection, the system collapses very fast.
    If the cluster is unevenly loaded, you don't even need to be close
    to full (cluster) capacity to collapse ! (Another good reason to be
    evenly loaded). <br>
    <br>
    Cordially, <br>
    <br>
    Thierry<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CD5674C3CD99574EBA7432465FC13C1B220B5C1568@DC-US1MBEX4.global.avaya.com"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">
Dale
_______________________________________________
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    <br>
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      <meta content="Thierry Bessis" name="author">
      <big style="font-weight: bold;"><big><big><span
              style="font-family: French Script MT;">-- <br>
              Cordially, <br>
            </span></big></big></big><big style="font-weight: bold;"><big><big><span
              style="font-family: French Script MT;">Thierry Bessis</span></big></big></big>
      <div> </div>
      <div> </div>
      &nbsp;
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">IMS Solution: Architecture
        &amp; Product Management - ALTA Member</span><br
        style="font-family: Arial;">
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">&nbsp; Organization: ALU &gt; Carrier
        group &gt;
        Wireline BU &gt;&nbsp;</span><b> </b>IMS Sol Arch, SE, PdM<br>
      <img style="width: 242px; height: 66px;" alt="Alcatel-Lucent"
        src="cid:part1.04090707.01020104@alcatel-lucent.com"><br>
      &nbsp;
      <span style="font-family: Arial;"></span><span style="font-family:
        Arial;">1960 Lucent Lane - Room 6L-517</span><br
        style="font-family: Arial;">
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">&nbsp; Naperville, IL&nbsp;
        60563&nbsp; U
        S</span><br style="font-family: Arial;">
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        style="font-family: Arial;">
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        tbessis&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
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        2801 2801 (US):+1 800 771 8734 - (F):+33 800 941 674 - Access
        Code:
        9797989<br>
        others countries see: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://all.alcatel-lucent.com/audio">http://all.alcatel-lucent.com/audio</a></small><br>
      <br>
      <big style="font-weight: bold;"><big><span style="font-family:
            French Script MT;">Upcoming planned Business Trip:
            12 April - 14 April 2011</span></big></big><br>
      <big style="font-weight: bold;"><big><span style="font-family:
            French Script MT;">Upcoming planned Vacation: None</span></big></big>
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From henry.sinnreich@gmail.com  Wed Mar  9 13:08:57 2011
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Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2011 15:10:04 -0600
From: Henry Sinnreich <henry.sinnreich@gmail.com>
To: Itsuma TANAKA <tanakai@nttdocomo.co.jp>, <dispatch@ietf.org>
Message-ID: <C99D48CC.19EC9%henry.sinnreich@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [dispatch] Revisionofdraft-allen-dispatch-imei-urn-as-instanceid
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Subject: Re: [dispatch] Revisionofdraft-allen-dispatch-imei-urn-as-instanceid
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Such work in the IETF would require IMO an explanation about its
compatibility with the open, e2e architectural and other technical
principles of the Internet. It actually seems to be the opposite.

For this reason, such work may be better accomplished in other
organizations, so as to avoid architectural principle and other technical
conflicts. Simplicity and scalability comes to mind among other, though this
is better discussed elsewhere.

Thanks,

Henry Sinnreich


On 3/9/11 8:54 AM, "Itsuma TANAKA" <tanakai@nttdocomo.co.jp> wrote:

> Dear All,
> 
> I work for NTT DOCOMO, Inc in Japan. and attend various 3GPP meetings (SA2,
> CT1, CT4, and CT3) and GSM Association (GSMA) Interworking, Roaming Expert
> Group (IREG), Roaming in LTE (RILTE) and Packet subgroup meetings.  I serve
> as a Vice Chair of GSMA IREG RILTE and Packet subgroups.
> 
> I would like to express my support of draft-montemurro-gsma-imei-urn and the
> associated draft-allen-dispatch-imei-urn-as-instanceid.
> 
> The reasons are exactly same as what Ricky Kaura (Samsung) expressed.  A
> various 3GPP specifications (IMS Registration in 3GPP TS24.229, IMS
> emergency calls in TS23.237 and TS24.237, ICS in TS23.292 and TS24.292), and
> GSMA document (GSMA PRD IR.92, "IMS Profile for Voice and SMS") are using
> these drafts.
>  
> These internet drafts are very important to support various key features in
> 3GPP and to enable GSMA Voice over LTE.  Therefore, I kindly would like ask
> that this work is progressed as quickly as possible in IETF.
> 
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Itsuma Tanaka
> NTT DOCOMO
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> dispatch mailing list
> dispatch@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch



From aallen@rim.com  Wed Mar  9 15:43:58 2011
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Thread-Topic: [dispatch] Revisionofdraft-allen-dispatch-imei-urn-as-instanceid
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From: "Andrew Allen" <aallen@rim.com>
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Henry

Would you care to elaborate and explain your specific concerns?  How is what=
 is defined in these drafts potentially incompatible with the open, e2e arch=
itectural and in any other way technical conflict with the Internet?

The two drafts do the following things:

One draft simply defines and registers with IANA a URN namespace according t=
o the procedures defined for doing that.

The other draft simply defines how this URN can be used as an instance ID as=
 required by RFC 5626. 

SIP and the mechanisms in RFC 5626 are already being used in networks define=
d by 3GPP and are being deployed by members of the GSMA. 3GPP and GSMA have=
 already defined this behavior using their existing device Identifiers for i=
nstance ID generation in their specifications. These drafts complete the pro=
cess doing things the right way by reserving the namespace and defining the=
 usage of it using the IETF defined mechanisms for doing that.

Andrew

----- Original Message -----
From: Henry Sinnreich [mailto:henry.sinnreich@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 03:10 PM
To: Itsuma TANAKA <tanakai@nttdocomo.co.jp>; dispatch@ietf.org <dispatch@iet=
f.org>
Subject: Re: [dispatch] Revisionofdraft-allen-dispatch-imei-urn-as-instancei=
d

Such work in the IETF would require IMO an explanation about its
compatibility with the open, e2e architectural and other technical
principles of the Internet. It actually seems to be the opposite.

For this reason, such work may be better accomplished in other
organizations, so as to avoid architectural principle and other technical
conflicts. Simplicity and scalability comes to mind among other, though this
is better discussed elsewhere.

Thanks,

Henry Sinnreich


On 3/9/11 8:54 AM, "Itsuma TANAKA" <tanakai@nttdocomo.co.jp> wrote:

> Dear All,
> 
> I work for NTT DOCOMO, Inc in Japan. and attend various 3GPP meetings (SA2=
,
> CT1, CT4, and CT3) and GSM Association (GSMA) Interworking, Roaming Expert
> Group (IREG), Roaming in LTE (RILTE) and Packet subgroup meetings.  I serv=
e
> as a Vice Chair of GSMA IREG RILTE and Packet subgroups.
> 
> I would like to express my support of draft-montemurro-gsma-imei-urn and t=
he
> associated draft-allen-dispatch-imei-urn-as-instanceid.
> 
> The reasons are exactly same as what Ricky Kaura (Samsung) expressed.  A
> various 3GPP specifications (IMS Registration in 3GPP TS24.229, IMS
> emergency calls in TS23.237 and TS24.237, ICS in TS23.292 and TS24.292), a=
nd
> GSMA document (GSMA PRD IR.92, "IMS Profile for Voice and SMS") are using
> these drafts.
>  
> These internet drafts are very important to support various key features i=
n
> 3GPP and to enable GSMA Voice over LTE.  Therefore, I kindly would like as=
k
> that this work is progressed as quickly as possible in IETF.
> 
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Itsuma Tanaka
> NTT DOCOMO
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> dispatch mailing list
> dispatch@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch


_______________________________________________
dispatch mailing list
dispatch@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch

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Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing
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Vijay,

> I believe that we should take the view that load balancing and overload-
> control are separate

They are different, but one can use overload prevention to balance load.
That was my point.  The focus of our draft was to avoid overload.  A
byproduct is that I can use it to perfectly balance load on a peer server.
 
> Now ... to the details of "sce" and "weight" as proposed in our draft.
> 
> In the large, I agree that we are thinking along the same lines.  This
> is good.
> 
> In addition to the email exchange between you and Thierry, there is one
> more property that is very attractive: statelessness.
> 
> I think that it is advantageous that we impose the property of
> statelessness on a load balancing mechanism.  With "sce", the upstream
> SIP proxy must keep track of how many requests it has sent to a
> downstream SIP server since the latter sent it the last "sce" value.

SCE does not propose keeping track of messages.  As a server replies
forwards a message to a peer, it inserts an SCE value: a value that
indicates how much additional capacity it can handle given its current load.
Imagine an SBC at the edge of my enterprise peering with AT&T.  Perhaps I
have 5 SBCs to which I can direct traffic.  As I forward traffic to the SBC,
I see in response messages SCE values like 1000, 1200, 2300, 1300, 850.
This tells my enterprise SBC roughly how many more sessions I can direct
toward each of those SBCs. The state maintained by the enterprise SBC is
perhaps an ordered list (or using whatever algorithm one chooses) to select
which SBC to direct the next session toward.

> Furthermore, each time a request is sent to the downstream SIP server,
> the SIP proxy must decrement its request count.

The enterprise SBC does not decrement counters, but it will likely be
provided with a new SCE value that might be influenced by other factors
other than the enterprise SBC.

> Consequently, the state on how many requests have been sent to the
> downstream SIP server since the SIP proxy got the last "sce" parameter,
> what the low water-mark is, is all lost if not replicated upon a reboot.

None of this information is needed.  When the enterprise SBC is rebooted, it
will discover the SCE values from its peers the next time it directs traffic
(either a call or an OPTIONS "ping").

> With "weight", you bypass all of this state maintenance business.

The SCE draft does not introduce any of the state you describe.  I agree
entirely that if I had to maintain all the state you described, it would be
complex.  But, SCE does not do it.

> All the SIP proxy needs is a "weight" indicator that it will use in a
> RFC2782-type algorithm to proportionally send as much traffic to a
> downstream SIP server as it has indicated (i.e., higher "weight"
> values will get proportionally more traffic).  This is much better than
> round-robin, and furthermore, there is no requirement that each
> downstream SIP server in the cluster set its "weight" in a consistent
> manner, or even that the "weight" values of two SIP servers be
> comparable.

As RFC 2782 says, "Weight, the server selection field, is not quite
satisfactory, but the actual load on typical servers changes much too
quickly to be kept around in DNS caches."

That is precisely the case with high-transaction systems like SBCs.  It is
even more pronounced when those SBCs are handling phone calls of varying
duration, or processing media flows that vary significantly in terms of CPU
or bandwidth consumption, or when performing transcoding or transrating
functions.

I fully agree that a simple round-robin approach does not work.  We've
proven that.  What does work, though, is a combination of round-robin over a
set of peer devices that we know have available capacity.  That's where SCE
comes into play.  For over 10 years, we have performed peer selection using
an approach very much like SCE + round robin for 10 years now.  It works.
 
> If a SIP server thinks that it has infinite resources, it can set the
> "weight" to be 65,535.  Consequently, it will get a proportionally more
> traffic if the "weight" of other SIP servers in the cluster is set to,
> say, 10 or 20.  Similarly, if the SIP server in a cluster wants to
> accept less number of messages, it sets a
> lower, albeit non-zero, value for its "weight" parameter.   If the
> cluster has capacity, other load control weights will be higher, and
> will thus get a proportionate share of the traffic.  As all SIP servers
> in the cluster reach capacity, the load distribution algorithm arranges
> for a uniform load distribution to all of the SIP servers until either
> the offered load subsides or the SIP servers enter into overload mode
> and start shedding traffic using the mechanism defined in the overload
> control draft.

This is where the weighting mechanism starts to sound lot like SCE. Rather
than providing a "weight", we call it "sce".  I had proposed before that SCE
would be calculated as the minimum "capacity" value from a set of capacity
measurements. The device would estimate its capacity given current memory
utilization with respect to the current number of sessions.  The device
would estimate its capacity given current CPU utilization with respect to
the current number of sessions.  What the device would consider (CPU,
memory, DSPs, whatever) is outside the scope of the draft, but in the end,
the device determines these values and returns the minimum as the SCE value.
(After all, if memory is exhausted, then it does not matter how many other
resources are available: one is out of memory.)  This is the approach we
take, measuring resources on a set interval or certain events.  Again, all
of that is really a matter of implementation.

At the end, our comes an SCE value and it sounds a lot like the weight.
It's a number with which a peer can compare against similar numbers reported
from other peers.

> Indeed.  If this work progresses, it'll be nice to have a coherent view
> going forward.  If you will be in Prague, it will be good to hook up and
> chat about this.

I'd love to, but I will not be there, unfortunately. (I think 1999 was the
last time I had an opportunity to make it to an IETF meeting.)

Paul


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Thierry,

 

I think there is more in common than not.

 

You compute a "weight" and we compute an "sce" that is, in my opinion, more
or less the same: it's a value that indicates how much traffic can be
directed toward the box relative to other peer devices.

 

You want to do "load balancing" whereas we want to do "overload prevention".
Preventing overload means distributing load across boxes.  We are not
proposing to perfectly balance the load, but the load is distributed
nonetheless.

 

Honestly, I just don't see a lot of difference, other than terminology.  The
algorithm employed by the device directing traffic, but that algorithm is
independent of the advertisement of a capacity/weight value.

 

Paul

 

From: Thierry Bessis [mailto:Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 12:26 PM
To: Paul E. Jones
Cc: dispatch@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing

 

Thanks Paul for you detailed answer ! 

I've looked at your SCE proposal and your comments and my impression is that
our two proposals are actually very different both from their intent
perspective, and from their realization perspective. 

The intent of our load balancing proposal is clearly continuous load
balancing. Our suggested weight does try to figure any kind of remaining
capacity in terms of sessions: it only indicates the instant (slightly
smoothed) available resource, which integrates CPU, Memory and any other
constrained resource. For the kind of usage we have in mind, (and for
example), it does not matter if we have lot of sessions "left" when we have
very little CPU to register those sessions: it is optimal to temporary
offload this busy node rather than risking a CPU induced rejection or
failure. When the node will have more CPU available, it will take more
sessions, and may be even more than others, because it may have now more
memory than others. If this node never have more CPU available, then its
"session" capacity is actually unusable and the system correctly reflects
that. 

Also, the SOC was not intended for "dynamic" load distribution: it only
provides the feedback when some shedding is expected (So already one or
multiple nodes are about to be overloaded). Also, integrating the
information from both SOC and SCE to take the distribution decision seems
rather complicated to me. In our proposal, the distribution algorithm is
simple, never changes, and is independent from SOC. We selected a node with
weights always the same way, and we apply the SOC rejection when applicable
to this node.

Cordially, 

Thierry

On 08-Mar-2011 14:47, Paul E. Jones wrote: 

Thierry,

 

Please see my comments below in green:

 

 

From: Thierry Bessis [mailto:Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2011 12:35 PM
To: Paul E. Jones
Cc: 'Vijay K. Gurbani'; dispatch@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing

 

Paul, 

Please let me address some of your comments. 
I don't know what the SCE is, so please pardon me if I misunderstand
something. 

On 07-Mar-2011 23:05, Paul E. Jones wrote: 

Vijay,
 
The Session Capacity Estimate (SCE) idea is actually quite similar to the
"adaptive load balancing" draft, from what I can see.  SCE was proposed as a
solution to the "overload" problem, the approach being one where we try to
avoid overload by selecting a device that reports a higher capacity value.
Thus, one could view it as "overload control through load balancing".  We
didn't explicitly call it load balancing, though, because we were not trying
to balance load (i.e., place the same load on all servers).  Rather, we just
wanted to direct traffic to devices that we knew had available capacity.

Agreed, the goal seems to be the same: avoiding or at least delaying
overload. 
And your other comment too: our proposal does try to balance the load on all
the servers. The rational is that it is very easy for each server to know
where it is in terms of resource usage (for instance: I'm 60 percent
resource loaded at this moment), and this is just the information you need
to balance the traffic. Now it seems (but it is not clear, see below)  that
the SCE "available capacity" is actually a real time feedback, so the
information would be very similar actually. (What's the difference ? )

 

PEJ: I think it is very similar.  SCE provides real-time feedback of the
available resource capacity of a peer device.  The intent is to convey a
single integer value that represents an estimate of the number of sessions
the peer device can handle.  Note, this is not "message per second" or
other, but the number of sessions.  The focus on SCE is on devices like
"call agents", "session border controllers", stateful SIP proxies, etc. 




 
In practice, the way SCE would be employed is the following:
* SIP proxy, B2BUA, etc. (selector) would receive SCE capacity from
   peer devices
 * The selector would direct traffic toward the peer devices in a
   round-robin fashion, taking into consideration the SCE value so
   as to prevent exhausting resources on any given peer device

I see a contradiction here: if it is round-robin, it does not take into
account the SCE value. 
Is that something more like a weighted round-robin algorithm ? 

 

PEJ: As I mention below, the algorithm used to select a peer device is not a
part of the SCE draft.  One can use any mechanism.  The SCE draft merely
advertises a session capacity estimate.  We've found round-robin to be a
simple approach that works, as it distributes load relatively uniformly, but
stops directing traffic toward devices that report an SCE value that is
below a specified threshold. Other input could be considered, but we
deliberately left the algorithm outside the scope of SCE.




 * Once the peer's SCE value dropped below a given "low-water mark",
   the peer device would be less favored and not given traffic until
   the SCE value increases above the low-water mark (OPTIONS "ping"
   messages may be used to determine the SCE value in the event that
   there is no other traffic)

Why would we wait for a lower mark before to influence the distribution ?
Also is that less favored, or given no traffic ? 

 

PEJ: With our use of SCE, we're not trying to "balance" the load, per se.
One certainly could do that, but in order to balance the load on peer
devices when they are out of balance, one must direct multiple new sessions
toward the same device.  That is not always desirable since new sessions
usually consume more resources temporarily than established sessions.  So,
we try to burden a peer device by throwing a number of new sessions toward
the peer by distributing them in a round-robin fashion.  Again, though, the
approach taken is outside the scope of the SCE draft.

 


The later has stability issues.  And why do we need ping Options when there
is no traffic ?
 If there is no traffic (or very little), should we care about optimal
distribution from this source ?

 

PEJ: The assumption is that a peer device might also have several peers.
So, while device A1 may not be directing traffic toward device B, perhaps
A2, A3, and A4 are.  We can use OPTIONS "ping" messages to get current SCE
information.






 * The current SOC overload control mechanism would be used to
   to prevent message overloading, as SCE only focuses on resource
   overloading (e.g., memory, CPU, disk space, DSPs)

I don't see this difference here (message overload versus resource overload
? ) . To me, SOC focuses on source shedding, while SCE seems to focus on
improved load distribution, just like our proposal.

 

PEJ: A peer device might be able to handle 18,000 new sessions, but perhaps
it can only handle them at a rate of 100 per second.  We would use SCE to
determine that a peer can handle new sessions, while we would use the
methods SOC is defining to prevent message overload so we do not send 200
INVITEs per second to the peer.  (Use of the SOC mechanism might prove to
work better than our current round-robin approach, but we've not tested it.)





 
Note that the "round-robin" approach may or may not be preferred and is not
required in our draft.  I've found this approach works pretty well, but one
may prefer to use a particular weighting that is more complex.  I don't
think local decisions in the box need to be subject to standardization: we
just need to standardize the signaling to enable such decisions.

I believe the signaling is not enough. The deep meaning of the feedback
parameter needs to be clarified too. 
For example, in our proposal, the feedback is simply the current utilization
rate of the node (very simple).

 

PEJ: That sounds similar to SCE.  An SCE-capable device advertises to its
peer how many new sessions it can handle given the number of sessions it is
currently handling. 

Also the expectation needs to be clarified because it has a very important
impact on the recommended behavior in case of overload. 
The solution that we propose constantly tries to balance load in the cluster
of servers. Therefore, in case the SOC shedding kicks in, there is NOT NEED
to repeat the message elsewhere in the cluster because it is balanced
already (So no other server has more capacity). This is a huge advantage for
the network stability as message repeat tends to spread the overload and
collapse the cluster. 




In any case, it certainly looks like we're thinking along the same lines.

Yes I agree. 




PEJ: If you haven't already, have a look at our draft:

 <http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jones-sip-overload-sce-00>
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jones-sip-overload-sce-00

 

It is now expired, but your draft suggests there is still life in this
approach.  We should look to harmonize them, perhaps.

 

Paul

 


Cordially, 

Thierry




 
Paul
 

-----Original Message-----
From: dispatch-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:dispatch-bounces@ietf.org] On
Behalf Of Vijay K. Gurbani
Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 6:38 PM
To: dispatch@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing
 
Paul: Thank you for your input.  More inline.
 
On 03/07/2011 05:14 PM, Paul Kyzivat wrote:

Vijay,
IIUC, the algorithm you have proposed is similar to the one Paul Jones
has proposed - with the main difference being the numeric range of the
weight. Do I have that right?

 
I believe that Paul J.'s algorithm is more suited towards overload
control, not load balancing (and I will await Paul J.'s correction to my
assertion).
 
The intent in draft-bessis-dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing is to
*always* report the current load to give the upstream SIP proxy an
indication of the health of the SIP server in the cluster.  If one waits
until overload is imminent, then it may be too late since a sudden and
unanticipated burst of messages will put the SIP server in overload
rather quickly.
 

It isn't clear to me from your draft if you are specifying the
algorithm by which the relative weights are used to determine the
probability of a request going to one server or another.

 
Yes, same way as RFC2782 does it.
 

ISTM that it *does* matter. And it especially matters if there is an
implication that the upstream node's algorithm may depend on some
assumption or knowledge about the downstream nodes.

 
No knowledge, just a reported number that the upstream SIP proxy can
treat as a RFC2782-like weight indicator.  Today, rfc3263-resolution
starts off with the SRV indicators in RFC2782, without any regard to
additional knowledge or assumption about downstream nodes.
dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing is trying to use the same model, except
render the weight to be sensitive to the current traffic in the cluster
in real-time.
 

And of course this method of reporting weights isn't sufficient to
drive a balancing algorithm that is sensitive to some requests
requiring more or different resources than others. (That seems to be a
real problem, though I don't know if we have a real solution for
it.)

 
Yes, that is a real problem, as is the problem of a SIP server in a
cluster that has a low weight and is thus not contacted with enough
frequency to merit more participation to the goodput.
 
It is well known in SIP that some methods are more onerous to process
than others --- from a proxying point of view, processing an INVITE with
forking and response aggregation is far more detrimental to resource
usage than is processing a BYE.  Some existing literature techniques
thus add a coefficient to the weight of sending an INVITE versus a BYE.
At this time, the process outlined in dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing
treats all requests the same, but we can definitely look at ways to
change this behaviour.
 
Thanks,
 
- vijay
--
Vijay K. Gurbani, Bell Laboratories, Alcatel-Lucent
1960 Lucent Lane, Rm. 9C-533, Naperville, Illinois 60566 (USA)
Email: vkg@{bell-labs.com,acm.org} <mailto:vkg@%7bbell-labs.com,acm.org%7d>
/ vijay.gurbani@alcatel-lucent.com
Web:   http://ect.bell-labs.com/who/vkg/
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_______________________________________________
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dispatch@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch

 

-- 
-- 
Cordially, 
Thierry Bessis 

  IMS Solution: Architecture & Product Management - ALTA Member
  Organization: ALU > Carrier group > Wireline BU >  IMS Sol Arch, SE, PdM
Alcatel-Lucent
  1960 Lucent Lane - Room 6L-517
  Naperville, IL  60563  U S
  Tel/Fax: +1 630 979 7989
  Corporate IM: tbessis    - Yahoo IM:     thierry_bessis

My WEB page:   http://ihgpweb.ih.lucent.com/~tbessis/
<http://ihgpweb.ih.lucent.com/%7Etbessis/> 
My Calendar:   www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=new_frs3175%40yahoo.fr
ALTA Hot Line: http://alta.all.alcatel-lucent.com/hotline

Conference information:
2801 2801 (US):+1 800 771 8734 - (F):+33 800 941 674 - Access Code: 9797989
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Upcoming planned Business Trip: 12 April - 14 April 2011
Upcoming planned Vacation: None 

 
 
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dispatch@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch

 

-- 
-- 
Cordially, 
Thierry Bessis 

  IMS Solution: Architecture & Product Management - ALTA Member
  Organization: ALU > Carrier group > Wireline BU >  IMS Sol Arch, SE, PdM
Alcatel-Lucent
  1960 Lucent Lane - Room 6L-517
  Naperville, IL  60563  U S
  Tel/Fax: +1 630 979 7989
  Corporate IM: tbessis    - Yahoo IM:     thierry_bessis

My WEB page:   http://ihgpweb.ih.lucent.com/~tbessis/
My Calendar:   www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=new_frs3175%40yahoo.fr
ALTA Hot Line: http://alta.all.alcatel-lucent.com/hotline

Conference information:
2801 2801 (US):+1 800 771 8734 - (F):+33 800 941 674 - Access Code: 9797989
others countries see: http://all.alcatel-lucent.com/audio

Upcoming planned Business Trip: 12 April - 14 April 2011
Upcoming planned Vacation: None 


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&#8220;sce&#8221; that is, in my opinion, more or less the same: =
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distributing load across boxes.&nbsp; We are not proposing to perfectly =
balance the load, but the load is distributed =
nonetheless.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Honestly, I just don&#8217;t see a lot of difference, other than =
terminology.&nbsp; The algorithm employed by the device directing =
traffic, but that algorithm is independent of the advertisement of a =
capacity/weight value.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Paul<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowt=
ext'>From:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowt=
ext'> Thierry Bessis [mailto:Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com] =
<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 09, 2011 12:26 PM<br><b>To:</b> Paul =
E. Jones<br><b>Cc:</b> dispatch@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: =
[dispatch] SIP load balancing<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Thanks Paul =
for you detailed answer ! <br><br>I've looked at your SCE proposal and =
your comments and my impression is that our two proposals are actually =
very different both from their intent perspective, and from their =
realization perspective. <br><br>The intent of our load balancing =
proposal is clearly continuous load balancing. Our suggested weight does =
try to figure any kind of remaining capacity in terms of sessions: it =
only indicates the instant (slightly smoothed) available resource, which =
integrates CPU, Memory and any other constrained resource. For the kind =
of usage we have in mind, (and for example), it does not matter if we =
have lot of sessions &quot;left&quot; when we have very little CPU to =
register those sessions: it is optimal to temporary offload this busy =
node rather than risking a CPU induced rejection or failure. When the =
node will have more CPU available, it will take more sessions, and may =
be even more than others, because it may have now more memory than =
others. If this node never have more CPU available, then its =
&quot;session&quot; capacity is actually unusable and the system =
correctly reflects that. <br><br>Also, the SOC was not intended for =
&quot;dynamic&quot; load distribution: it only provides the feedback =
when some shedding is expected (So already one or multiple nodes are =
about to be overloaded). Also, integrating the information from both SOC =
and SCE to take the distribution decision seems rather complicated to =
me. In our proposal, the distribution algorithm is simple, never =
changes, and is independent from SOC. We selected a node with weights =
always the same way, and we apply the SOC rejection when applicable to =
this node.<br><br>Cordially, <br><br>Thierry<br><br>On 08-Mar-2011 =
14:47, Paul E. Jones wrote: <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Thierry,</s=
pan><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;</spa=
n><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Please see =
my comments below in green</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>:</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;</spa=
n><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;</spa=
n><o:p></o:p></p><div style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid windowtext =
1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;border-color:-moz-use-text-color =
-moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color&#13;&#10;          =
blue'><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid windowtext =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in =
0in;border-color:-moz-use-text-color&#13;&#10;              =
-moz-use-text-color'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowt=
ext'>From:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowt=
ext'> Thierry Bessis [<a =
href=3D"mailto:Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com">mailto:Thierry.Bessis@a=
lcatel-lucent.com</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, March 08, 2011 12:35 =
PM<br><b>To:</b> Paul E. Jones<br><b>Cc:</b> 'Vijay K. Gurbani'; <a =
href=3D"mailto:dispatch@ietf.org">dispatch@ietf.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b=
> Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Paul, =
<br><br>Please let me address some of your comments. <br>I don't know =
what the SCE is, so please pardon me if I misunderstand something. =
<br><br>On 07-Mar-2011 23:05, Paul E. Jones wrote: =
<o:p></o:p></p><pre>Vijay,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre><p=
re>The Session Capacity Estimate (SCE) idea is actually quite similar to =
the<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>&quot;adaptive load balancing&quot; draft, from =
what I can see.&nbsp; SCE was proposed as =
a<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>solution to the &quot;overload&quot; problem, the =
approach being one where we try to<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>avoid overload =
by selecting a device that reports a higher capacity =
value.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Thus, one could view it as &quot;overload =
control through load balancing&quot;.&nbsp; =
We<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>didn't explicitly call it load balancing, =
though, because we were not trying<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>to balance load =
(i.e., place the same load on all servers). &nbsp;Rather, we =
just<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>wanted to direct traffic to devices that we =
knew had available capacity.<o:p></o:p></pre><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Agreed, the goal seems to be the same: avoiding or at =
least delaying overload. <br>And your other comment too: our proposal =
does try to balance the load on all the servers. The rational is that it =
is very easy for each server to know where it is in terms of resource =
usage (for instance: I'm 60 percent resource loaded at this moment), and =
this is just the information you need to balance the traffic. Now it =
seems (but it is not clear, see below)&nbsp; that the SCE =
&quot;available capacity&quot; is actually a real time feedback, so the =
information would be very similar actually. (What's the difference ? =
)<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#00B05=
0'>PEJ: I think it is very similar.&nbsp; SCE provides real-time =
feedback of the available resource capacity of a peer device.&nbsp; The =
intent is to convey a single integer value that represents an estimate =
of the number of sessions the peer device can handle.&nbsp; Note, this =
is not &#8220;message per second&#8221; or other, but the number of =
sessions.&nbsp; The focus on SCE is on devices like &#8220;call =
agents&#8221;, &#8220;session border controllers&#8221;, stateful SIP =
proxies, etc.</span> =
<br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>In practice, =
the way SCE would be employed is the following:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>* =
SIP proxy, B2BUA, etc. (selector) would receive SCE capacity =
from<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; peer =
devices<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> * The selector would direct traffic toward =
the peer devices in a<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; round-robin =
fashion, taking into consideration the SCE value =
so<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; as to prevent exhausting resources =
on any given peer device<o:p></o:p></pre><p class=3DMsoNormal>I see a =
contradiction here: if it is round-robin, it does not take into account =
the SCE value. <br>Is that something more like a weighted round-robin =
algorithm ? <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#00B05=
0'>PEJ: As I mention below, the algorithm used to select a peer device =
is not a part of the SCE draft.&nbsp; One can use any mechanism.&nbsp; =
The SCE draft merely advertises a session capacity estimate.&nbsp; =
We&#8217;ve found round-robin to be a simple approach that works, as it =
distributes load relatively uniformly, but stops directing traffic =
toward devices that report an SCE value that is below a specified =
threshold. Other input could be considered, but we deliberately left the =
algorithm outside the scope of =
SCE.</span><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><pre> * Once the peer's SCE value =
dropped below a given &quot;low-water =
mark&quot;,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; the peer device would be =
less favored and not given traffic =
until<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; the SCE value increases above =
the low-water mark (OPTIONS =
&quot;ping&quot;<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; messages may be used =
to determine the SCE value in the event =
that<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; there is no other =
traffic)<o:p></o:p></pre><p class=3DMsoNormal>Why would we wait for a =
lower mark before to influence the distribution ? Also is that less =
favored, or given no traffic ? <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#00B05=
0'>PEJ: With our use of SCE, we&#8217;re not trying to =
&#8220;balance&#8221; the load, per se.&nbsp; One certainly could do =
that, but in order to balance the load on peer devices when they are out =
of balance, one must direct multiple new sessions toward the same =
device.&nbsp; That is not always desirable since new sessions usually =
consume more resources temporarily than established sessions.&nbsp; So, =
we try to burden a peer device by throwing a number of new sessions =
toward the peer by distributing them in a round-robin fashion.&nbsp; =
Again, though, the approach taken is outside the scope of the SCE =
draft.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><br>The later has =
stability issues.&nbsp; And why do we need ping Options when there is no =
traffic ?<br>&nbsp;If there is no traffic (or very little), should we =
care about optimal distribution from this source ?<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#00B05=
0'>PEJ: The assumption is that a peer device might also have several =
peers.&nbsp; So, while device A1 may not be directing traffic toward =
device B, perhaps A2, A3, and A4 are.&nbsp; We can use OPTIONS =
&#8220;ping&#8221; messages to get current SCE =
information.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><pre>&nbsp;* The current =
SOC overload control mechanism would be used =
to<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; to prevent message overloading, as =
SCE only focuses on resource<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; =
overloading (e.g., memory, CPU, disk space, DSPs)<o:p></o:p></pre><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>I don't see this difference here (message overload =
versus resource overload ? ) . To me, SOC focuses on source shedding, =
while SCE seems to focus on improved load distribution, just like our =
proposal.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#00B05=
0'>PEJ: A peer device might be able to handle 18,000 new sessions, but =
perhaps it can only handle them at a rate of 100 per second.&nbsp; We =
would use SCE to determine that a peer can handle new sessions, while we =
would use the methods SOC is defining to prevent message overload so we =
do not send 200 INVITEs per second to the peer.&nbsp; (Use of the SOC =
mechanism might prove to work better than our current round-robin =
approach, but we&#8217;ve not tested it.)</span> =
<br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Note that =
the &quot;round-robin&quot; approach may or may not be preferred and is =
not<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>required in our draft.&nbsp; I've found this =
approach works pretty well, but one<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>may prefer to =
use a particular weighting that is more complex.&nbsp; I =
don't<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>think local decisions in the box need to be =
subject to standardization: we<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>just need to =
standardize the signaling to enable such decisions.<o:p></o:p></pre><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>I believe the signaling is not enough. The deep =
meaning of the feedback parameter needs to be clarified too. <br>For =
example, in our proposal, the feedback is simply the current utilization =
rate of the node (very simple).<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#00B05=
0'>PEJ: That sounds similar to SCE.&nbsp; An SCE-capable device =
advertises to its peer how many new sessions it can handle given the =
number of sessions it is currently handling.</span> <br><br>Also the =
expectation needs to be clarified because it has a very important impact =
on the recommended behavior in case of overload. <br>The solution that =
we propose constantly tries to balance load in the cluster of servers. =
Therefore, in case the SOC shedding kicks in, there is NOT NEED to =
repeat the message elsewhere in the cluster because it is balanced =
already (So no other server has more capacity). This is a huge advantage =
for the network stability as message repeat tends to spread the overload =
and collapse the cluster. <br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><pre>In any case, =
it certainly looks like we're thinking along the same =
lines.<o:p></o:p></pre><p class=3DMsoNormal>Yes I agree. =
<br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#00B05=
0'>PEJ: If you haven&#8217;t already, have a look at our =
draft:</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#00B05=
0'><a =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jones-sip-overload-sce-00"><span=
 =
style=3D'color:#00B050'>http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jones-sip-overlo=
ad-sce-00</span></a></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#00B05=
0'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#00B05=
0'>It is now expired, but your draft suggests there is still life in =
this approach.&nbsp; We should look to harmonize them, =
perhaps.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#00B05=
0'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#00B05=
0'>Paul</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><br>Cordially, =
<br><br>Thierry<br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre><pr=
e>Paul<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>-----Original =
Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>From: <a =
href=3D"mailto:dispatch-bounces@ietf.org">dispatch-bounces@ietf.org</a> =
[<a =
href=3D"mailto:dispatch-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dispatch-bounces@ietf.or=
g</a>] On<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Behalf Of Vijay K. =
Gurbani<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 6:38 =
PM<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>To: <a =
href=3D"mailto:dispatch@ietf.org">dispatch@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><=
pre>Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load =
balancing<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Paul: Thank =
you for your input.&nbsp; More =
inline.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>On 03/07/2011 =
05:14 PM, Paul Kyzivat wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>Vijay,<o:p></o:p></pr=
e><pre>IIUC, the algorithm you have proposed is similar to the one Paul =
Jones<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>has proposed - with the main difference being =
the numeric range of the<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>weight. Do I have that =
right?<o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote><pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>I =
believe that Paul J.'s algorithm is more suited towards =
overload<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>control, not load balancing (and I will =
await Paul J.'s correction to =
my<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>assertion).<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p=
></pre><pre>The intent in draft-bessis-dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing =
is to<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>*always* report the current load to give the =
upstream SIP proxy an<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>indication of the health of =
the SIP server in the cluster.&nbsp; If one =
waits<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>until overload is imminent, then it may be =
too late since a sudden and<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>unanticipated burst of =
messages will put the SIP server in overload<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>rather =
quickly.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>It isn't clear to me =
from your draft if you are specifying the<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>algorithm =
by which the relative weights are used to determine =
the<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>probability of a request going to one server or =
another.<o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote><pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Ye=
s, same way as RFC2782 does =
it.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>ISTM that it *does* =
matter. And it especially matters if there is =
an<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>implication that the upstream node's algorithm =
may depend on some<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>assumption or knowledge about =
the downstream =
nodes.<o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote><pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>No =
knowledge, just a reported number that the upstream SIP proxy =
can<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>treat as a RFC2782-like weight indicator.&nbsp; =
Today, rfc3263-resolution<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>starts off with the SRV =
indicators in RFC2782, without any regard =
to<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>additional knowledge or assumption about =
downstream nodes.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing =
is trying to use the same model, except<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>render the =
weight to be sensitive to the current traffic in the =
cluster<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>in =
real-time.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>And of course this =
method of reporting weights isn't sufficient =
to<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>drive a balancing algorithm that is sensitive to =
some requests<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>requiring more or different resources =
than others. (That seems to be a<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>real problem, =
though I don't know if we have a real solution =
for<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>it.)<o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote><pre>&nbsp;<o:=
p></o:p></pre><pre>Yes, that is a real problem, as is the problem of a =
SIP server in a<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>cluster that has a low weight and =
is thus not contacted with enough<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>frequency to =
merit more participation to the =
goodput.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>It is well =
known in SIP that some methods are more onerous to =
process<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>than others --- from a proxying point of =
view, processing an INVITE with<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>forking and =
response aggregation is far more detrimental to =
resource<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>usage than is processing a BYE.&nbsp; Some =
existing literature techniques<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>thus add a =
coefficient to the weight of sending an INVITE versus a =
BYE.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>At this time, the process outlined in =
dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>treats all =
requests the same, but we can definitely look at ways =
to<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>change this =
behaviour.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Thanks,<o:p><=
/o:p></pre><pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>- =
vijay<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>--<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Vijay K. Gurbani, =
Bell Laboratories, Alcatel-Lucent<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>1960 Lucent Lane, =
Rm. 9C-533, Naperville, Illinois 60566 (USA)<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Email: =
<a =
href=3D"mailto:vkg@%7bbell-labs.com,acm.org%7d">vkg@{bell-labs.com,acm.or=
g}</a> / <a =
href=3D"mailto:vijay.gurbani@alcatel-lucent.com">vijay.gurbani@alcatel-lu=
cent.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Web:&nbsp;&nbsp; <a =
href=3D"http://ect.bell-labs.com/who/vkg/">http://ect.bell-labs.com/who/v=
kg/</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>____________________________________________=
___<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>dispatch mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a =
href=3D"mailto:dispatch@ietf.org">dispatch@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><=
pre><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch">https://www.ietf.=
org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch</a><o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote><pre>&nbsp=
;<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>_______________________________________________<o:=
p></o:p></pre><pre>dispatch mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a =
href=3D"mailto:dispatch@ietf.org">dispatch@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><=
pre><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch">https://www.ietf.=
org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch</a><o:p></o:p></pre><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>-- =
<br><b><span style=3D'font-size:24.0pt;font-family:"French Script MT =
;","serif"'>-- <br>Cordially, <br>Thierry Bessis</span></b> =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; <span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>IMS Solution: Architecture =
&amp; Product Management - ALTA Member<br>&nbsp; Organization: ALU &gt; =
Carrier group &gt; Wireline BU &gt;&nbsp;</span><b> </b>IMS Sol Arch, =
SE, PdM<br><img border=3D0 width=3D299 height=3D104 id=3D"_x0000_i1025" =
src=3D"cid:image001.jpg@01CBDEAF.D0B95100" =
alt=3DAlcatel-Lucent><br>&nbsp; <span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>1960 Lucent Lane - Room =
6L-517<br>&nbsp; Naperville, IL&nbsp; 60563&nbsp; U S<br>&nbsp; Tel/Fax: =
+1 630 979 7989<br>&nbsp; Corporate IM: tbessis&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - =
Yahoo IM:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; thierry_bessis</span><br><br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>My WEB page:&nbsp;&nbsp; <a =
href=3D"http://ihgpweb.ih.lucent.com/%7Etbessis/">http://ihgpweb.ih.lucen=
t.com/~tbessis/</a><br>My Calendar:&nbsp;&nbsp; <a =
href=3D"http://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=3Dnew_frs3175%40yahoo.fr=
">www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=3Dnew_frs3175%40yahoo.fr</a><br>ALTA =
Hot Line: <a =
href=3D"http://alta.all.alcatel-lucent.com/hotline">http://alta.all.alcat=
el-lucent.com/hotline</a></span><br><br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Conference information:<br>2801 2801 (US):+1 =
800 771 8734 - (F):+33 800 941 674 - Access Code: 9797989<br>others =
countries see: <a =
href=3D"http://all.alcatel-lucent.com/audio">http://all.alcatel-lucent.co=
m/audio</a></span><br><br><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"French Script MT =
;","serif"'>Upcoming planned Business Trip: 12 April - 14 April =
2011</span></b><br><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"French Script MT =
;","serif"'>Upcoming planned Vacation: None</span></b> =
<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></pre><pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p>=
</pre><pre>dispatch mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a =
href=3D"mailto:dispatch@ietf.org">dispatch@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><=
pre><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch">https://www.ietf.=
org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch</a><o:p></o:p></pre><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>-- =
<br><b><span style=3D'font-size:24.0pt;font-family:"French Script =
MT"'>-- <br>Cordially, <br>Thierry Bessis</span></b> <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; <span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>IMS Solution: Architecture =
&amp; Product Management - ALTA Member<br>&nbsp; Organization: ALU &gt; =
Carrier group &gt; Wireline BU &gt;&nbsp;</span><b> </b>IMS Sol Arch, =
SE, PdM<br><img border=3D0 width=3D299 height=3D104 id=3D"_x0000_i1026" =
src=3D"cid:image001.jpg@01CBDEAF.D0B95100" =
alt=3DAlcatel-Lucent><br>&nbsp; <span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>1960 Lucent Lane - Room =
6L-517<br>&nbsp; Naperville, IL&nbsp; 60563&nbsp; U S<br>&nbsp; Tel/Fax: =
+1 630 979 7989<br>&nbsp; Corporate IM: tbessis&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - =
Yahoo IM:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; thierry_bessis</span><br><br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>My WEB page:&nbsp;&nbsp; <a =
href=3D"http://ihgpweb.ih.lucent.com/~tbessis/">http://ihgpweb.ih.lucent.=
com/~tbessis/</a><br>My Calendar:&nbsp;&nbsp; <a =
href=3D"http://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=3Dnew_frs3175%40yahoo.fr=
">www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=3Dnew_frs3175%40yahoo.fr</a><br>ALTA =
Hot Line: <a =
href=3D"http://alta.all.alcatel-lucent.com/hotline">http://alta.all.alcat=
el-lucent.com/hotline</a></span><br><br><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Conference information:<br>2801 2801 (US):+1 =
800 771 8734 - (F):+33 800 941 674 - Access Code: 9797989<br>others =
countries see: <a =
href=3D"http://all.alcatel-lucent.com/audio">http://all.alcatel-lucent.co=
m/audio</a></span><br><br><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"French Script MT"'>Upcoming =
planned Business Trip: 12 April - 14 April 2011</span></b><br><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:18.0pt;font-family:"French Script MT"'>Upcoming =
planned Vacation: None</span></b> =
<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></body></html>
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From: "Parthasarathi R (partr)" <partr@cisco.com>
To: "Vijay K. Gurbani" <vkg@bell-labs.com>
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Vijay,

Please read inline

Thanks
Partha=20

-----Original Message-----
From: Vijay K. Gurbani [mailto:vkg@bell-labs.com]=20
Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 3:59 AM
To: Parthasarathi R (partr)
Cc: dispatch@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing

On 03/08/2011 03:52 AM, Parthasarathi R (partr) wrote:
>[...] Even though any overload control algorithm  is used ("oc" or=20
>"weight" or "SCE" or "resource-availability" other),  the locally=20
>overload control mechanism is required in downstream as per  mentioned=20
>in draft-ietf-soc-overload-design. I wish that we will look  into these

>aspect because overload control is the extreme case for load  balancing

>the cluster of downstream entity and load balancing mechanism  shall=20
>help to avoid the overload control based on feedback.

Partha: Thank you for your input.  I do agree that overload control is
the extreme case for load balancing.  However, as my email to Paul J.
indicated, treating them differently may help, or we could make load
balancing an extension under overload control.  I don't know what the
answer is ... we'd have to hash it out in dispatch on where to send load
balancing to.

<Partha> IMO, it is possible to have the single solution for overload
control which shall be used for load balancing as well in case the units
of the feedback are well defined and uniquely  identified across the
different devices. As Paul mentioned in the mail thread, it is worth to
have BAR BoF for this activity during IETF-80 in case lot of folks are
interested. </Partha>

  My understanding is that the charter for SOC does not account for load
balancing.

<Partha> It took long time for me to understand IETF SOC does not
considered load balancing  :-(...I agree with you now </Partha>

> I guess that your mechanism assumes about downstream SIP UA as=20
> signaling entity only and does not handle media. Please correct me in=20
> case I wrongly understand.

Our mechanism does not distinguish between media or signaling in the
sense that the "weight" that is reported is a normalized value that is
calculated by the SIP server in a cluster.=20

<Partha> It will be really tough to generalize all devices under
"Weight" as a unit. Because "weight" understanding will vary heavy based
on the implementation of a specific devices. Value 1000 in one device
may not be same as 1000 in another device which may confuse load
balancer </Partha>

The SIP server could be a SIP bridge, for instance, in which case it may
be able to handle a lot of point-to-point calls, but can only handle few
calls requiring full mesh conferencing capabilities.  As long as the SIP
server is handling the low-resource point-to-point calls, it reports a
higher "weight" value.  But as soon as a conference call with a large
number of participants commences, using other resources like mixers and
transcoders, etc., the SIP server starts to report lower "weight"
values.

Thanks,

- vijay
--
Vijay K. Gurbani, Bell Laboratories, Alcatel-Lucent 1960 Lucent Lane,
Rm. 9C-533, Naperville, Illinois 60566 (USA)
Email: vkg@{bell-labs.com,acm.org} / vijay.gurbani@alcatel-lucent.com
Web:   http://ect.bell-labs.com/who/vkg/

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From: Henry Sinnreich <henry.sinnreich@gmail.com>
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Hi Andrew,

I have generic objections to see the publication of yet another
informational RFC about practices in consortiums of closed networks in the
IETF, for the following reasons:

* Using the RFC process as a publishing venue for organizations that don't
explicitly do that in support of the open e2e Internet.

* The resources of the IETF are not unlimited, meeting time and email time
to discuss is scarce and the IETF registries are just not scalable enough to
support registrations for all the extensions that benefit countless external
organizations and companies that deploy Internet technology.
New business plans and the required extensions pop up in an endless fashion.
Big organizations such as you mention have their own resources to publish
their internal technical documents and white papers if they desire to do so.

Members of outside organizations are certainly doing everybody a good
service by informing via email of new standards/extensions in other
organization, such as you have done below, but such information need not
overload the Internet RFC process nor overload the Internet registries.

* Hard for SIP developers and right out impossible for application
developers.
Though SIP works fine indeed across the world; SIPit and the SIP Forum
take care of unavoidable problems still encountered by operators, arguably
increasing SIP complexity for non-Internet purposes is not a good idea, even
if new SIP extensions are labeled as just "informational". It makes it even
more difficult for new developers entering the field to ever understand, let
alone write code for some or all that has been published already about SIP
for example. Checking right now there are 197 RFCs matching SIP and 78 I-Ds
found by the RFC search engine.

It is time to leave SIP alone and move on to other critical areas for the
Internet, such as for example the future of applications that will be
discussed in the next IETF technical plenary on Monday, March 28.

With this in mind, I would rather not go into discussing your I-D in detail,
though at first glance it seems technically correct and if it were discussed
on the list, may indeed technically qualify as an informational RFC - just
what I am arguing against.

These are all personal opinions. The chairs and ADs may or may not discuss
or agree/disagree with. Your I-D is just a good opportunity to raise these
issues. 

Note that I am not suggesting any voting on your I-D, if it will be
discussed, since for various reasons, the majority of folks attending the
DISPATCH WG are from various outside organizations with business plans that
may or may not fully embrace the open e2e Internet; a perfect legitimate
choice for them, but not  in the IETF (I just can't remember when ever there
was a vote against any new I-D for SIP, since no cost was perceived by those
voting).

Thanks,
Henry 


On 3/9/11 5:45 PM, "Andrew Allen" <aallen@rim.com> wrote:

> 
> Henry
> 
> Would you care to elaborate and explain your specific concerns?  How is what
> is defined in these drafts potentially incompatible with the open, e2e
> architectural and in any other way technical conflict with the Internet?
> 
> The two drafts do the following things:
> 
> One draft simply defines and registers with IANA a URN namespace according to
> the procedures defined for doing that.
> 
> The other draft simply defines how this URN can be used as an instance ID as
> required by RFC 5626.
> 
> SIP and the mechanisms in RFC 5626 are already being used in networks defined
> by 3GPP and are being deployed by members of the GSMA. 3GPP and GSMA have
> already defined this behavior using their existing device Identifiers for
> instance ID generation in their specifications. These drafts complete the
> process doing things the right way by reserving the namespace and defining the
> usage of it using the IETF defined mechanisms for doing that.
> 
> Andrew
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Henry Sinnreich [mailto:henry.sinnreich@gmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 03:10 PM
> To: Itsuma TANAKA <tanakai@nttdocomo.co.jp>; dispatch@ietf.org
> <dispatch@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [dispatch] Revisionofdraft-allen-dispatch-imei-urn-as-instanceid
> 
> Such work in the IETF would require IMO an explanation about its
> compatibility with the open, e2e architectural and other technical
> principles of the Internet. It actually seems to be the opposite.
> 
> For this reason, such work may be better accomplished in other
> organizations, so as to avoid architectural principle and other technical
> conflicts. Simplicity and scalability comes to mind among other, though this
> is better discussed elsewhere.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Henry Sinnreich
> 
> 
> On 3/9/11 8:54 AM, "Itsuma TANAKA" <tanakai@nttdocomo.co.jp> wrote:
> 
>> Dear All,
>> 
>> I work for NTT DOCOMO, Inc in Japan. and attend various 3GPP meetings (SA2,
>> CT1, CT4, and CT3) and GSM Association (GSMA) Interworking, Roaming Expert
>> Group (IREG), Roaming in LTE (RILTE) and Packet subgroup meetings.  I serve
>> as a Vice Chair of GSMA IREG RILTE and Packet subgroups.
>> 
>> I would like to express my support of draft-montemurro-gsma-imei-urn and the
>> associated draft-allen-dispatch-imei-urn-as-instanceid.
>> 
>> The reasons are exactly same as what Ricky Kaura (Samsung) expressed.  A
>> various 3GPP specifications (IMS Registration in 3GPP TS24.229, IMS
>> emergency calls in TS23.237 and TS24.237, ICS in TS23.292 and TS24.292), and
>> GSMA document (GSMA PRD IR.92, "IMS Profile for Voice and SMS") are using
>> these drafts.
>> 
>> These internet drafts are very important to support various key features in
>> 3GPP and to enable GSMA Voice over LTE.  Therefore, I kindly would like ask
>> that this work is progressed as quickly as possible in IETF.
>> 
>> 
>> Best regards,
>> 
>> Itsuma Tanaka
>> NTT DOCOMO
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> dispatch mailing list
>> dispatch@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> dispatch mailing list
> dispatch@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
> 
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Hi Henry,
 um ...
i. Votes in the IETF; did I miss this, or is this another change
   like actively barring entry to meetings for deadbeats?

ii. Information is good.
   I for one have no axe to grind on this, but believe that this is a =
service to the Internet community.
   Reporting how things work in the real world has been a long-term =
feature of the informational track (as you know).

iii. The fact that imei format is used and can be tied to URNs and IIDs =
seems to me to be both
   a valid and reasonable idea.
   *Requiring* that to be done is a different page of the book, but this =
is NOT a standards track doc.
   How GSMA spectrum members want to run their networks is not an IETF =
topic (viz CONDOR, ...).
   That war was decided waaaaay back -- you were there for that as well =
:).

   Your comments on lack of e2e operation (i.e. if this is not in SIP =
messages they will be
   treated "differently"/with extreme prejudice) is at the very least =
reasonable, but that
   addresses the general topic of the IETF as an SDO, rather than being =
tied to this draft.

iv. you say that SIP time should not be taken up with registrations -- =
that's the iid registration process.
  There's a registration doc that has (if one is fortunate) a "how this =
is used by xxx".
  So ... this should "go through on the nod". You have said that it =
appears to be technically valid.

  Q: Are you arguing that the iid registration process should be =
changed?

all the best,
 Lawrence
--
What comes up must come down.
"Not my department", says Werner Von Braun


On 10 Mar 2011, at 17:03, Henry Sinnreich wrote:
> Hi Andrew,
>=20
> I have generic objections to see the publication of yet another
> informational RFC about practices in consortiums of closed networks in =
the
> IETF, for the following reasons:
>=20
> * Using the RFC process as a publishing venue for organizations that =
don't
> explicitly do that in support of the open e2e Internet.
>=20
> * The resources of the IETF are not unlimited, meeting time and email =
time
> to discuss is scarce and the IETF registries are just not scalable =
enough to
> support registrations for all the extensions that benefit countless =
external
> organizations and companies that deploy Internet technology.
> New business plans and the required extensions pop up in an endless =
fashion.
> Big organizations such as you mention have their own resources to =
publish
> their internal technical documents and white papers if they desire to =
do so.
>=20
> Members of outside organizations are certainly doing everybody a good
> service by informing via email of new standards/extensions in other
> organization, such as you have done below, but such information need =
not
> overload the Internet RFC process nor overload the Internet =
registries.
>=20
> * Hard for SIP developers and right out impossible for application
> developers.
> Though SIP works fine indeed across the world; SIPit and the SIP Forum
> take care of unavoidable problems still encountered by operators, =
arguably
> increasing SIP complexity for non-Internet purposes is not a good =
idea, even
> if new SIP extensions are labeled as just "informational". It makes it =
even
> more difficult for new developers entering the field to ever =
understand, let
> alone write code for some or all that has been published already about =
SIP
> for example. Checking right now there are 197 RFCs matching SIP and 78 =
I-Ds
> found by the RFC search engine.
>=20
> It is time to leave SIP alone and move on to other critical areas for =
the
> Internet, such as for example the future of applications that will be
> discussed in the next IETF technical plenary on Monday, March 28.
>=20
> With this in mind, I would rather not go into discussing your I-D in =
detail,
> though at first glance it seems technically correct and if it were =
discussed
> on the list, may indeed technically qualify as an informational RFC - =
just
> what I am arguing against.
>=20
> These are all personal opinions. The chairs and ADs may or may not =
discuss
> or agree/disagree with. Your I-D is just a good opportunity to raise =
these
> issues.=20
>=20
> Note that I am not suggesting any voting on your I-D, if it will be
> discussed, since for various reasons, the majority of folks attending =
the
> DISPATCH WG are from various outside organizations with business plans =
that
> may or may not fully embrace the open e2e Internet; a perfect =
legitimate
> choice for them, but not  in the IETF (I just can't remember when ever =
there
> was a vote against any new I-D for SIP, since no cost was perceived by =
those
> voting).
>=20
> Thanks,
> Henry=20
>=20
>=20
> On 3/9/11 5:45 PM, "Andrew Allen" <aallen@rim.com> wrote:
>=20
>>=20
>> Henry
>>=20
>> Would you care to elaborate and explain your specific concerns?  How =
is what
>> is defined in these drafts potentially incompatible with the open, =
e2e
>> architectural and in any other way technical conflict with the =
Internet?
>>=20
>> The two drafts do the following things:
>>=20
>> One draft simply defines and registers with IANA a URN namespace =
according to
>> the procedures defined for doing that.
>>=20
>> The other draft simply defines how this URN can be used as an =
instance ID as
>> required by RFC 5626.
>>=20
>> SIP and the mechanisms in RFC 5626 are already being used in networks =
defined
>> by 3GPP and are being deployed by members of the GSMA. 3GPP and GSMA =
have
>> already defined this behavior using their existing device Identifiers =
for
>> instance ID generation in their specifications. These drafts complete =
the
>> process doing things the right way by reserving the namespace and =
defining the
>> usage of it using the IETF defined mechanisms for doing that.
>>=20
>> Andrew
>>=20
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Henry Sinnreich [mailto:henry.sinnreich@gmail.com]
>> Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 03:10 PM
>> To: Itsuma TANAKA <tanakai@nttdocomo.co.jp>; dispatch@ietf.org
>> <dispatch@ietf.org>
>> Subject: Re: [dispatch] =
Revisionofdraft-allen-dispatch-imei-urn-as-instanceid
>>=20
>> Such work in the IETF would require IMO an explanation about its
>> compatibility with the open, e2e architectural and other technical
>> principles of the Internet. It actually seems to be the opposite.
>>=20
>> For this reason, such work may be better accomplished in other
>> organizations, so as to avoid architectural principle and other =
technical
>> conflicts. Simplicity and scalability comes to mind among other, =
though this
>> is better discussed elsewhere.
>>=20
>> Thanks,
>>=20
>> Henry Sinnreich
>>=20
>>=20
>> On 3/9/11 8:54 AM, "Itsuma TANAKA" <tanakai@nttdocomo.co.jp> wrote:
>>=20
>>> Dear All,
>>>=20
>>> I work for NTT DOCOMO, Inc in Japan. and attend various 3GPP =
meetings (SA2,
>>> CT1, CT4, and CT3) and GSM Association (GSMA) Interworking, Roaming =
Expert
>>> Group (IREG), Roaming in LTE (RILTE) and Packet subgroup meetings.  =
I serve
>>> as a Vice Chair of GSMA IREG RILTE and Packet subgroups.
>>>=20
>>> I would like to express my support of draft-montemurro-gsma-imei-urn =
and the
>>> associated draft-allen-dispatch-imei-urn-as-instanceid.
>>>=20
>>> The reasons are exactly same as what Ricky Kaura (Samsung) =
expressed.  A
>>> various 3GPP specifications (IMS Registration in 3GPP TS24.229, IMS
>>> emergency calls in TS23.237 and TS24.237, ICS in TS23.292 and =
TS24.292), and
>>> GSMA document (GSMA PRD IR.92, "IMS Profile for Voice and SMS") are =
using
>>> these drafts.
>>>=20
>>> These internet drafts are very important to support various key =
features in
>>> 3GPP and to enable GSMA Voice over LTE.  Therefore, I kindly would =
like ask
>>> that this work is progressed as quickly as possible in IETF.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Best regards,
>>>=20
>>> Itsuma Tanaka
>>> NTT DOCOMO
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> dispatch mailing list
>>> dispatch@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> dispatch mailing list
>> dispatch@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
>>=20
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> This transmission (including any attachments) may contain =
confidential
>> information, privileged material (including material protected by the
>> solicitor-client or other applicable privileges), or constitute =
non-public
>> information. Any use of this information by anyone other than the =
intended
>> recipient is prohibited. If you have received this transmission in =
error,
>> please immediately reply to the sender and delete this information =
from your
>> system. Use, dissemination, distribution, or reproduction of this =
transmission
>> by unintended recipients is not authorized and may be unlawful.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> dispatch mailing list
> dispatch@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch


From Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com  Thu Mar 10 10:15:59 2011
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Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing
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Paul,

I agree they are many similitudes ! :-)
But the question I think is: Can we make the two approaches compatible ?

For instance, with our approach, it is fundamental that the weight 
represents a "Relative" occupation, and not an absolute capacity.
The first reason is that we found that loading continuously all the 
servers at the same utilization rate (same percentage) is the optimal 
way of loading a cluster. (We can discuss that if not agreed). The 
second reason is that a relative occupation is very easy to derive from 
information already available: any system knows where it is in terms of 
CPU or Memory usage. In contrast, deriving a left capacity in terms of 
remaining sessions can be difficult: Host can be used by different 
applications and perform different duties, which can change over the 
day, all of them impacting their true capacity at a certain moment. 
Beside, as already discussed, different sessions require different 
resources, so there is a whole complication of dealing with a multitude 
of call profiles, that (again) are not even constant over the day.

Also, we do not want to derive some shedding decision from the weight. 
We want to rely on the OLC mechanism for that. As I mentioned before, 
deriving shedding from the weight is very sensitive to the way weights 
are calculated: we would need to specify exactly how the weight is 
calculated: this is impractical ! Also everybody would need to agree 
about specific threshold: What is the weight value threshold for 
shedding ?: Again this is more difficult, and different servers will 
certainly want to use different thresholds.   Also there is a 
contradiction: whether you are using relative or absolute weights, your 
weight should  zero (100% busy, or 0 sessions available) at the moment 
you are getting overloaded. So if you are 100% busy (or in average no 
room for new sessions), how to you tell how many sessions need to be 
shed ? You could be 100% busy with an offered load of 300% nominal (then 
you need to shed 66%), or be 100% busy at just the nominal load, (then 
you don't need to shed). This again shows this threshold issue I 
mentioned. In our implementation, we used to use to a common 
"utilization" information to do both optimal distribution and shedding, 
but we moved away from that because of those reasons: we found that each 
node indicating its requested rejection rate is much more robust and 
requires very little agreements.

Cordially,

Thierry


On 09-Mar-2011 22:15, Paul E. Jones wrote:
>
> Thierry,
>
> I think there is more in common than not.
>
> You compute a "weight" and we compute an "sce" that is, in my opinion, 
> more or less the same: it's a value that indicates how much traffic 
> can be directed toward the box relative to other peer devices.
>
> You want to do "load balancing" whereas we want to do "overload 
> prevention".  Preventing overload means distributing load across 
> boxes.  We are not proposing to perfectly balance the load, but the 
> load is distributed nonetheless.
>
> Honestly, I just don't see a lot of difference, other than 
> terminology.  The algorithm employed by the device directing traffic, 
> but that algorithm is independent of the advertisement of a 
> capacity/weight value.
>
> Paul
>
> *From:*Thierry Bessis [mailto:Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 09, 2011 12:26 PM
> *To:* Paul E. Jones
> *Cc:* dispatch@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing
>
> Thanks Paul for you detailed answer !
>
> I've looked at your SCE proposal and your comments and my impression 
> is that our two proposals are actually very different both from their 
> intent perspective, and from their realization perspective.
>
> The intent of our load balancing proposal is clearly continuous load 
> balancing. Our suggested weight does try to figure any kind of 
> remaining capacity in terms of sessions: it only indicates the instant 
> (slightly smoothed) available resource, which integrates CPU, Memory 
> and any other constrained resource. For the kind of usage we have in 
> mind, (and for example), it does not matter if we have lot of sessions 
> "left" when we have very little CPU to register those sessions: it is 
> optimal to temporary offload this busy node rather than risking a CPU 
> induced rejection or failure. When the node will have more CPU 
> available, it will take more sessions, and may be even more than 
> others, because it may have now more memory than others. If this node 
> never have more CPU available, then its "session" capacity is actually 
> unusable and the system correctly reflects that.
>
> Also, the SOC was not intended for "dynamic" load distribution: it 
> only provides the feedback when some shedding is expected (So already 
> one or multiple nodes are about to be overloaded). Also, integrating 
> the information from both SOC and SCE to take the distribution 
> decision seems rather complicated to me. In our proposal, the 
> distribution algorithm is simple, never changes, and is independent 
> from SOC. We selected a node with weights always the same way, and we 
> apply the SOC rejection when applicable to this node.
>
> Cordially,
>
> Thierry
>
> On 08-Mar-2011 14:47, Paul E. Jones wrote:
>
> Thierry,
>
> Please see my comments below in green:
>
> *From:*Thierry Bessis [mailto:Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 08, 2011 12:35 PM
> *To:* Paul E. Jones
> *Cc:* 'Vijay K. Gurbani'; dispatch@ietf.org <mailto:dispatch@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing
>
> Paul,
>
> Please let me address some of your comments.
> I don't know what the SCE is, so please pardon me if I misunderstand 
> something.
>
> On 07-Mar-2011 23:05, Paul E. Jones wrote:
>
> Vijay,
>   
> The Session Capacity Estimate (SCE) idea is actually quite similar to the
> "adaptive load balancing" draft, from what I can see.  SCE was proposed as a
> solution to the "overload" problem, the approach being one where we try to
> avoid overload by selecting a device that reports a higher capacity value.
> Thus, one could view it as "overload control through load balancing".  We
> didn't explicitly call it load balancing, though, because we were not trying
> to balance load (i.e., place the same load on all servers).  Rather, we just
> wanted to direct traffic to devices that we knew had available capacity.
>
> Agreed, the goal seems to be the same: avoiding or at least delaying 
> overload.
> And your other comment too: our proposal does try to balance the load 
> on all the servers. The rational is that it is very easy for each 
> server to know where it is in terms of resource usage (for instance: 
> I'm 60 percent resource loaded at this moment), and this is just the 
> information you need to balance the traffic. Now it seems (but it is 
> not clear, see below)  that the SCE "available capacity" is actually a 
> real time feedback, so the information would be very similar actually. 
> (What's the difference ? )
>
> PEJ: I think it is very similar.  SCE provides real-time feedback of 
> the available resource capacity of a peer device.  The intent is to 
> convey a single integer value that represents an estimate of the 
> number of sessions the peer device can handle.  Note, this is not 
> "message per second" or other, but the number of sessions.  The focus 
> on SCE is on devices like "call agents", "session border controllers", 
> stateful SIP proxies, etc.
>
>
>   
> In practice, the way SCE would be employed is the following:
> * SIP proxy, B2BUA, etc. (selector) would receive SCE capacity from
>     peer devices
>   * The selector would direct traffic toward the peer devices in a
>     round-robin fashion, taking into consideration the SCE value so
>     as to prevent exhausting resources on any given peer device
>
> I see a contradiction here: if it is round-robin, it does not take 
> into account the SCE value.
> Is that something more like a weighted round-robin algorithm ?
>
> PEJ: As I mention below, the algorithm used to select a peer device is 
> not a part of the SCE draft.  One can use any mechanism.  The SCE 
> draft merely advertises a session capacity estimate.  We've found 
> round-robin to be a simple approach that works, as it distributes load 
> relatively uniformly, but stops directing traffic toward devices that 
> report an SCE value that is below a specified threshold. Other input 
> could be considered, but we deliberately left the algorithm outside 
> the scope of SCE.
>
>
>   * Once the peer's SCE value dropped below a given "low-water mark",
>     the peer device would be less favored and not given traffic until
>     the SCE value increases above the low-water mark (OPTIONS "ping"
>     messages may be used to determine the SCE value in the event that
>     there is no other traffic)
>
> Why would we wait for a lower mark before to influence the 
> distribution ? Also is that less favored, or given no traffic ?
>
> PEJ: With our use of SCE, we're not trying to "balance" the load, per 
> se.  One certainly could do that, but in order to balance the load on 
> peer devices when they are out of balance, one must direct multiple 
> new sessions toward the same device.  That is not always desirable 
> since new sessions usually consume more resources temporarily than 
> established sessions.  So, we try to burden a peer device by throwing 
> a number of new sessions toward the peer by distributing them in a 
> round-robin fashion.  Again, though, the approach taken is outside the 
> scope of the SCE draft.
>
>
> The later has stability issues.  And why do we need ping Options when 
> there is no traffic ?
>  If there is no traffic (or very little), should we care about optimal 
> distribution from this source ?
>
> PEJ: The assumption is that a peer device might also have several 
> peers.  So, while device A1 may not be directing traffic toward device 
> B, perhaps A2, A3, and A4 are.  We can use OPTIONS "ping" messages to 
> get current SCE information.
>
>
>
>
>   * The current SOC overload control mechanism would be used to
>     to prevent message overloading, as SCE only focuses on resource
>     overloading (e.g., memory, CPU, disk space, DSPs)
>
> I don't see this difference here (message overload versus resource 
> overload ? ) . To me, SOC focuses on source shedding, while SCE seems 
> to focus on improved load distribution, just like our proposal.
>
> PEJ: A peer device might be able to handle 18,000 new sessions, but 
> perhaps it can only handle them at a rate of 100 per second.  We would 
> use SCE to determine that a peer can handle new sessions, while we 
> would use the methods SOC is defining to prevent message overload so 
> we do not send 200 INVITEs per second to the peer.  (Use of the SOC 
> mechanism might prove to work better than our current round-robin 
> approach, but we've not tested it.)
>
>
>   
> Note that the "round-robin" approach may or may not be preferred and is not
> required in our draft.  I've found this approach works pretty well, but one
> may prefer to use a particular weighting that is more complex.  I don't
> think local decisions in the box need to be subject to standardization: we
> just need to standardize the signaling to enable such decisions.
>
> I believe the signaling is not enough. The deep meaning of the 
> feedback parameter needs to be clarified too.
> For example, in our proposal, the feedback is simply the current 
> utilization rate of the node (very simple).
>
> PEJ: That sounds similar to SCE.  An SCE-capable device advertises to 
> its peer how many new sessions it can handle given the number of 
> sessions it is currently handling.
>
> Also the expectation needs to be clarified because it has a very 
> important impact on the recommended behavior in case of overload.
> The solution that we propose constantly tries to balance load in the 
> cluster of servers. Therefore, in case the SOC shedding kicks in, 
> there is NOT NEED to repeat the message elsewhere in the cluster 
> because it is balanced already (So no other server has more capacity). 
> This is a huge advantage for the network stability as message repeat 
> tends to spread the overload and collapse the cluster.
>
>
> In any case, it certainly looks like we're thinking along the same lines.
>
> Yes I agree.
>
>
> PEJ: If you haven't already, have a look at our draft:
>
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jones-sip-overload-sce-00
>
> It is now expired, but your draft suggests there is still life in this 
> approach.  We should look to harmonize them, perhaps.
>
> Paul
>
>
> Cordially,
>
> Thierry
>
>
>   
> Paul
>   
>
>     -----Original Message-----
>
>     From:dispatch-bounces@ietf.org  <mailto:dispatch-bounces@ietf.org>  [mailto:dispatch-bounces@ietf.org] On
>
>     Behalf Of Vijay K. Gurbani
>
>     Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 6:38 PM
>
>     To:dispatch@ietf.org  <mailto:dispatch@ietf.org>
>
>     Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing
>
>       
>
>     Paul: Thank you for your input.  More inline.
>
>       
>
>     On 03/07/2011 05:14 PM, Paul Kyzivat wrote:
>
>         Vijay,
>
>         IIUC, the algorithm you have proposed is similar to the one Paul Jones
>
>         has proposed - with the main difference being the numeric range of the
>
>         weight. Do I have that right?
>
>       
>
>     I believe that Paul J.'s algorithm is more suited towards overload
>
>     control, not load balancing (and I will await Paul J.'s correction to my
>
>     assertion).
>
>       
>
>     The intent in draft-bessis-dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing is to
>
>     *always* report the current load to give the upstream SIP proxy an
>
>     indication of the health of the SIP server in the cluster.  If one waits
>
>     until overload is imminent, then it may be too late since a sudden and
>
>     unanticipated burst of messages will put the SIP server in overload
>
>     rather quickly.
>
>       
>
>         It isn't clear to me from your draft if you are specifying the
>
>         algorithm by which the relative weights are used to determine the
>
>         probability of a request going to one server or another.
>
>       
>
>     Yes, same way as RFC2782 does it.
>
>       
>
>         ISTM that it *does* matter. And it especially matters if there is an
>
>         implication that the upstream node's algorithm may depend on some
>
>         assumption or knowledge about the downstream nodes.
>
>       
>
>     No knowledge, just a reported number that the upstream SIP proxy can
>
>     treat as a RFC2782-like weight indicator.  Today, rfc3263-resolution
>
>     starts off with the SRV indicators in RFC2782, without any regard to
>
>     additional knowledge or assumption about downstream nodes.
>
>     dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing is trying to use the same model, except
>
>     render the weight to be sensitive to the current traffic in the cluster
>
>     in real-time.
>
>       
>
>         And of course this method of reporting weights isn't sufficient to
>
>         drive a balancing algorithm that is sensitive to some requests
>
>         requiring more or different resources than others. (That seems to be a
>
>         real problem, though I don't know if we have a real solution for
>
>         it.)
>
>       
>
>     Yes, that is a real problem, as is the problem of a SIP server in a
>
>     cluster that has a low weight and is thus not contacted with enough
>
>     frequency to merit more participation to the goodput.
>
>       
>
>     It is well known in SIP that some methods are more onerous to process
>
>     than others --- from a proxying point of view, processing an INVITE with
>
>     forking and response aggregation is far more detrimental to resource
>
>     usage than is processing a BYE.  Some existing literature techniques
>
>     thus add a coefficient to the weight of sending an INVITE versus a BYE.
>
>     At this time, the process outlined in dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing
>
>     treats all requests the same, but we can definitely look at ways to
>
>     change this behaviour.
>
>       
>
>     Thanks,
>
>       
>
>     - vijay
>
>     --
>
>     Vijay K. Gurbani, Bell Laboratories, Alcatel-Lucent
>
>     1960 Lucent Lane, Rm. 9C-533, Naperville, Illinois 60566 (USA)
>
>     Email:vkg@{bell-labs.com,acm.org}  <mailto:vkg@%7bbell-labs.com,acm.org%7d>  /vijay.gurbani@alcatel-lucent.com  <mailto:vijay.gurbani@alcatel-lucent.com>
>
>     Web:http://ect.bell-labs.com/who/vkg/
>
>     _______________________________________________
>
>     dispatch mailing list
>
>     dispatch@ietf.org  <mailto:dispatch@ietf.org>
>
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>
>   
> _______________________________________________
> dispatch mailing list
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>
> -- 
> *--
> Cordially,
> Thierry Bessis*
>
> IMS Solution: Architecture & Product Management - ALTA Member
>   Organization: ALU > Carrier group > Wireline BU > **IMS Sol Arch, 
> SE, PdM
> Alcatel-Lucent
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>   Tel/Fax: +1 630 979 7989
>   Corporate IM: tbessis    - Yahoo IM:     thierry_bessis
>
> My WEB page: http://ihgpweb.ih.lucent.com/~tbessis/ 
> <http://ihgpweb.ih.lucent.com/%7Etbessis/>
> My Calendar: www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=new_frs3175%40yahoo.fr 
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> ALTA Hot Line: http://alta.all.alcatel-lucent.com/hotline
>
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> *Upcoming planned Vacation: None*
>
>   
>   
> _______________________________________________
> dispatch mailing list
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> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
>
> -- 
> *--
> Cordially,
> Thierry Bessis*
>
> IMS Solution: Architecture & Product Management - ALTA Member
>   Organization: ALU > Carrier group > Wireline BU > **IMS Sol Arch, 
> SE, PdM
> Alcatel-Lucent
> 1960 Lucent Lane - Room 6L-517
>   Naperville, IL  60563  U S
>   Tel/Fax: +1 630 979 7989
>   Corporate IM: tbessis    - Yahoo IM:     thierry_bessis
>
> My WEB page: http://ihgpweb.ih.lucent.com/~tbessis/ 
> <http://ihgpweb.ih.lucent.com/%7Etbessis/>
> My Calendar: www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=new_frs3175%40yahoo.fr 
> <http://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=new_frs3175%40yahoo.fr>
> ALTA Hot Line: http://alta.all.alcatel-lucent.com/hotline
>
> Conference information:
> 2801 2801 (US):+1 800 771 8734 - (F):+33 800 941 674 - Access Code: 
> 9797989
> others countries see: http://all.alcatel-lucent.com/audio
>
> *Upcoming planned Business Trip: 12 April - 14 April 2011*
> *Upcoming planned Vacation: None*
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch

-- 
-- 
Cordially,
Thierry Bessis
IMS Solution: Architecture & Product Management - ALTA Member
   Organization: ALU > Carrier group > Wireline BU > **IMS Sol Arch, SE, PdM
Alcatel-Lucent
1960 Lucent Lane - Room 6L-517
   Naperville, IL  60563  U S
   Tel/Fax: +1 630 979 7989
   Corporate IM: tbessis    - Yahoo IM:     thierry_bessis

My WEB page:   http://ihgpweb.ih.lucent.com/~tbessis/
My Calendar:   www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=new_frs3175%40yahoo.fr
ALTA Hot Line: http://alta.all.alcatel-lucent.com/hotline

Conference information:
2801 2801 (US):+1 800 771 8734 - (F):+33 800 941 674 - Access Code: 9797989
others countries see: http://all.alcatel-lucent.com/audio

Upcoming planned Business Trip: 12 April - 14 April 2011
Upcoming planned Vacation: None

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    Paul, <br>
    <br>
    I agree they are many similitudes ! <span class="moz-smiley-s1"><span>
        :-) </span></span><br>
    But the question I think is: Can we make the two approaches
    compatible ? <br>
    <br>
    For instance, with our approach, it is fundamental that the weight
    represents a "Relative" occupation, and not an absolute capacity.<br>
    The first reason is that we found that loading continuously all the
    servers at the same utilization rate (same percentage) is the
    optimal way of loading a cluster. (We can discuss that if not
    agreed). The second reason is that a relative occupation is very
    easy to derive from information already available: any system knows
    where it is in terms of CPU or Memory usage. In contrast, deriving a
    left capacity in terms of remaining sessions can be difficult: Host
    can be used by different applications and perform different duties,
    which can change over the day, all of them impacting their true
    capacity at a certain moment. Beside, as already discussed,
    different sessions require different resources, so there is a whole
    complication of dealing with a multitude of call profiles, that
    (again) are not even constant over the day.<br>
    <br>
    Also, we do not want to derive some shedding decision from the
    weight. We want to rely on the OLC mechanism for that. As I
    mentioned before, deriving shedding from the weight is very
    sensitive to the way weights are calculated: we would need to
    specify exactly how the weight is calculated: this is impractical !
    Also everybody would need to agree about specific threshold: What is
    the weight value threshold for shedding ?: Again this is more
    difficult, and different servers will certainly want to use
    different thresholds. &nbsp; Also there is a contradiction: whether you
    are using relative or absolute weights, your weight should&nbsp; zero
    (100% busy, or 0 sessions available) at the moment you are getting
    overloaded. So if you are 100% busy (or in average no room for new
    sessions), how to you tell how many sessions need to be shed ? You
    could be 100% busy with an offered load of 300% nominal (then you
    need to shed 66%), or be 100% busy at just the nominal load, (then
    you don't need to shed). This again shows this threshold issue I
    mentioned. In our implementation, we used to use to a common
    "utilization" information to do both optimal distribution and
    shedding, but we moved away from that because of those reasons: we
    found that each node indicating its requested rejection rate is much
    more robust and requires very little agreements. <br>
    <br>
    Cordially, <br>
    <br>
    Thierry<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    On 09-Mar-2011 22:15, Paul E. Jones wrote:
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:026f01cbded9$be15f290$3a41d7b0$@packetizer.com"
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        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
            &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31,
            73, 125);">Thierry,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
            &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31,
            73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
            &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31,
            73, 125);">I think there is more in common than not.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
            &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31,
            73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
            &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31,
            73, 125);">You compute a &#8220;weight&#8221; and we compute an &#8220;sce&#8221;
            that is, in my opinion, more or less the same: it&#8217;s a value
            that indicates how much traffic can be directed toward the
            box relative to other peer devices.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
            &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31,
            73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
            &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31,
            73, 125);">You want to do &#8220;load balancing&#8221; whereas we want
            to do &#8220;overload prevention&#8221;.&nbsp; Preventing overload means
            distributing load across boxes.&nbsp; We are not proposing to
            perfectly balance the load, but the load is distributed
            nonetheless.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
            &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31,
            73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
            &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31,
            73, 125);">Honestly, I just don&#8217;t see a lot of difference,
            other than terminology.&nbsp; The algorithm employed by the
            device directing traffic, but that algorithm is independent
            of the advertisement of a capacity/weight value.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
            &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31,
            73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
            &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31,
            73, 125);">Paul<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
            &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31,
            73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <div style="border-width: medium medium medium 1.5pt;
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          -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color
          blue; padding: 0in 0in 0in 4pt;">
          <div>
            <div style="border-right: medium none; border-width: 1pt
              medium medium; border-style: solid none none;
              border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color
              -moz-use-text-color; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">
              <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;
                    font-family:
                    &quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:
                    windowtext;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:
                  10pt; font-family:
                  &quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:
                  windowtext;"> Thierry Bessis
                  [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com">mailto:Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com</a>] <br>
                  <b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 09, 2011 12:26 PM<br>
                  <b>To:</b> Paul E. Jones<br>
                  <b>Cc:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dispatch@ietf.org">dispatch@ietf.org</a><br>
                  <b>Subject:</b> Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            </div>
          </div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal">Thanks Paul for you detailed answer ! <br>
            <br>
            I've looked at your SCE proposal and your comments and my
            impression is that our two proposals are actually very
            different both from their intent perspective, and from their
            realization perspective. <br>
            <br>
            The intent of our load balancing proposal is clearly
            continuous load balancing. Our suggested weight does try to
            figure any kind of remaining capacity in terms of sessions:
            it only indicates the instant (slightly smoothed) available
            resource, which integrates CPU, Memory and any other
            constrained resource. For the kind of usage we have in mind,
            (and for example), it does not matter if we have lot of
            sessions "left" when we have very little CPU to register
            those sessions: it is optimal to temporary offload this busy
            node rather than risking a CPU induced rejection or failure.
            When the node will have more CPU available, it will take
            more sessions, and may be even more than others, because it
            may have now more memory than others. If this node never
            have more CPU available, then its "session" capacity is
            actually unusable and the system correctly reflects that. <br>
            <br>
            Also, the SOC was not intended for "dynamic" load
            distribution: it only provides the feedback when some
            shedding is expected (So already one or multiple nodes are
            about to be overloaded). Also, integrating the information
            from both SOC and SCE to take the distribution decision
            seems rather complicated to me. In our proposal, the
            distribution algorithm is simple, never changes, and is
            independent from SOC. We selected a node with weights always
            the same way, and we apply the SOC rejection when applicable
            to this node.<br>
            <br>
            Cordially, <br>
            <br>
            Thierry<br>
            <br>
            On 08-Mar-2011 14:47, Paul E. Jones wrote: <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
              font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;">Thierry,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
              font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
              font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;">Please
              see my comments below in green</span><span
              style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
              &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31,
              73, 125);">:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
              font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
              font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <div style="border-width: medium medium medium 1.5pt;
            border-style: none none none solid; padding: 0in 0in 0in
            4pt; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color
            -moz-use-text-color blue;">
            <div>
              <div style="border-right: medium none; border-width: 1pt
                medium medium; border-style: solid none none; padding:
                3pt 0in 0in; border-color: -moz-use-text-color;">
                <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;
                      font-family:
                      &quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:
                      windowtext;">From:</span></b><span
                    style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
                    &quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:
                    windowtext;"> Thierry Bessis [<a
                      moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="mailto:Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com">mailto:Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com</a>]
                    <br>
                    <b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, March 08, 2011 12:35 PM<br>
                    <b>To:</b> Paul E. Jones<br>
                    <b>Cc:</b> 'Vijay K. Gurbani'; <a
                      moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="mailto:dispatch@ietf.org">dispatch@ietf.org</a><br>
                    <b>Subject:</b> Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              </div>
            </div>
            <p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal">Paul, <br>
              <br>
              Please let me address some of your comments. <br>
              I don't know what the SCE is, so please pardon me if I
              misunderstand something. <br>
              <br>
              On 07-Mar-2011 23:05, Paul E. Jones wrote: <o:p></o:p></p>
            <pre>Vijay,<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>The Session Capacity Estimate (SCE) idea is actually quite similar to the<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>"adaptive load balancing" draft, from what I can see.&nbsp; SCE was proposed as a<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>solution to the "overload" problem, the approach being one where we try to<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>avoid overload by selecting a device that reports a higher capacity value.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Thus, one could view it as "overload control through load balancing".&nbsp; We<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>didn't explicitly call it load balancing, though, because we were not trying<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>to balance load (i.e., place the same load on all servers). &nbsp;Rather, we just<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>wanted to direct traffic to devices that we knew had available capacity.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <p class="MsoNormal">Agreed, the goal seems to be the same:
              avoiding or at least delaying overload. <br>
              And your other comment too: our proposal does try to
              balance the load on all the servers. The rational is that
              it is very easy for each server to know where it is in
              terms of resource usage (for instance: I'm 60 percent
              resource loaded at this moment), and this is just the
              information you need to balance the traffic. Now it seems
              (but it is not clear, see below)&nbsp; that the SCE "available
              capacity" is actually a real time feedback, so the
              information would be very similar actually. (What's the
              difference ? )<o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
                font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
                color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
                font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
                color: rgb(0, 176, 80);">PEJ: I think it is very
                similar.&nbsp; SCE provides real-time feedback of the
                available resource capacity of a peer device.&nbsp; The
                intent is to convey a single integer value that
                represents an estimate of the number of sessions the
                peer device can handle.&nbsp; Note, this is not &#8220;message per
                second&#8221; or other, but the number of sessions.&nbsp; The focus
                on SCE is on devices like &#8220;call agents&#8221;, &#8220;session border
                controllers&#8221;, stateful SIP proxies, etc.</span> <br>
              <br>
              <br>
              <o:p></o:p></p>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>In practice, the way SCE would be employed is the following:<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>* SIP proxy, B2BUA, etc. (selector) would receive SCE capacity from<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; peer devices<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre> * The selector would direct traffic toward the peer devices in a<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; round-robin fashion, taking into consideration the SCE value so<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; as to prevent exhausting resources on any given peer device<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <p class="MsoNormal">I see a contradiction here: if it is
              round-robin, it does not take into account the SCE value.
              <br>
              Is that something more like a weighted round-robin
              algorithm ? <o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
                font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
                color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
                font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
                color: rgb(0, 176, 80);">PEJ: As I mention below, the
                algorithm used to select a peer device is not a part of
                the SCE draft.&nbsp; One can use any mechanism.&nbsp; The SCE
                draft merely advertises a session capacity estimate.&nbsp;
                We&#8217;ve found round-robin to be a simple approach that
                works, as it distributes load relatively uniformly, but
                stops directing traffic toward devices that report an
                SCE value that is below a specified threshold. Other
                input could be considered, but we deliberately left the
                algorithm outside the scope of SCE.</span><br>
              <br>
              <br>
              <o:p></o:p></p>
            <pre> * Once the peer's SCE value dropped below a given "low-water mark",<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; the peer device would be less favored and not given traffic until<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; the SCE value increases above the low-water mark (OPTIONS "ping"<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; messages may be used to determine the SCE value in the event that<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; there is no other traffic)<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <p class="MsoNormal">Why would we wait for a lower mark
              before to influence the distribution ? Also is that less
              favored, or given no traffic ? <o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
                font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
                color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
                font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
                color: rgb(0, 176, 80);">PEJ: With our use of SCE, we&#8217;re
                not trying to &#8220;balance&#8221; the load, per se.&nbsp; One certainly
                could do that, but in order to balance the load on peer
                devices when they are out of balance, one must direct
                multiple new sessions toward the same device.&nbsp; That is
                not always desirable since new sessions usually consume
                more resources temporarily than established sessions.&nbsp;
                So, we try to burden a peer device by throwing a number
                of new sessions toward the peer by distributing them in
                a round-robin fashion.&nbsp; Again, though, the approach
                taken is outside the scope of the SCE draft.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
                font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
                color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
              The later has stability issues.&nbsp; And why do we need ping
              Options when there is no traffic ?<br>
              &nbsp;If there is no traffic (or very little), should we care
              about optimal distribution from this source ?<o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
                font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
                color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
                font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
                color: rgb(0, 176, 80);">PEJ: The assumption is that a
                peer device might also have several peers.&nbsp; So, while
                device A1 may not be directing traffic toward device B,
                perhaps A2, A3, and A4 are.&nbsp; We can use OPTIONS &#8220;ping&#8221;
                messages to get current SCE information.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
              <br>
              <br>
              <o:p></o:p></p>
            <pre>&nbsp;* The current SOC overload control mechanism would be used to<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; to prevent message overloading, as SCE only focuses on resource<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; overloading (e.g., memory, CPU, disk space, DSPs)<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <p class="MsoNormal">I don't see this difference here
              (message overload versus resource overload ? ) . To me,
              SOC focuses on source shedding, while SCE seems to focus
              on improved load distribution, just like our proposal.<o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
                font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
                color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
                font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
                color: rgb(0, 176, 80);">PEJ: A peer device might be
                able to handle 18,000 new sessions, but perhaps it can
                only handle them at a rate of 100 per second.&nbsp; We would
                use SCE to determine that a peer can handle new
                sessions, while we would use the methods SOC is defining
                to prevent message overload so we do not send 200
                INVITEs per second to the peer.&nbsp; (Use of the SOC
                mechanism might prove to work better than our current
                round-robin approach, but we&#8217;ve not tested it.)</span> <br>
              <br>
              <br>
              <o:p></o:p></p>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Note that the "round-robin" approach may or may not be preferred and is not<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>required in our draft.&nbsp; I've found this approach works pretty well, but one<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>may prefer to use a particular weighting that is more complex.&nbsp; I don't<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>think local decisions in the box need to be subject to standardization: we<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>just need to standardize the signaling to enable such decisions.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <p class="MsoNormal">I believe the signaling is not enough.
              The deep meaning of the feedback parameter needs to be
              clarified too. <br>
              For example, in our proposal, the feedback is simply the
              current utilization rate of the node (very simple).<o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
                font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
                color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
                font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
                color: rgb(0, 176, 80);">PEJ: That sounds similar to
                SCE.&nbsp; An SCE-capable device advertises to its peer how
                many new sessions it can handle given the number of
                sessions it is currently handling.</span> <br>
              <br>
              Also the expectation needs to be clarified because it has
              a very important impact on the recommended behavior in
              case of overload. <br>
              The solution that we propose constantly tries to balance
              load in the cluster of servers. Therefore, in case the SOC
              shedding kicks in, there is NOT NEED to repeat the message
              elsewhere in the cluster because it is balanced already
              (So no other server has more capacity). This is a huge
              advantage for the network stability as message repeat
              tends to spread the overload and collapse the cluster. <br>
              <br>
              <br>
              <o:p></o:p></p>
            <pre>In any case, it certainly looks like we're thinking along the same lines.<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <p class="MsoNormal">Yes I agree. <br>
              <br>
              <br>
              <o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
                font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
                color: rgb(0, 176, 80);">PEJ: If you haven&#8217;t already,
                have a look at our draft:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
                font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
                color: rgb(0, 176, 80);"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jones-sip-overload-sce-00"><span
                    style="color: rgb(0, 176, 80);">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jones-sip-overload-sce-00</span></a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
                font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
                color: rgb(0, 176, 80);">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
                font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
                color: rgb(0, 176, 80);">It is now expired, but your
                draft suggests there is still life in this approach.&nbsp; We
                should look to harmonize them, perhaps.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
                font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
                color: rgb(0, 176, 80);">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
                font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
                color: rgb(0, 176, 80);">Paul</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
                font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
                color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
              Cordially, <br>
              <br>
              Thierry<br>
              <br>
              <br>
              <o:p></o:p></p>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>Paul<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
            <blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;">
              <pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>From: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dispatch-bounces@ietf.org">dispatch-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dispatch-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dispatch-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>Behalf Of Vijay K. Gurbani<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 6:38 PM<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>To: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dispatch@ietf.org">dispatch@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>Paul: Thank you for your input.&nbsp; More inline.<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>On 03/07/2011 05:14 PM, Paul Kyzivat wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;">
                <pre>Vijay,<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>IIUC, the algorithm you have proposed is similar to the one Paul Jones<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>has proposed - with the main difference being the numeric range of the<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>weight. Do I have that right?<o:p></o:p></pre>
              </blockquote>
              <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>I believe that Paul J.'s algorithm is more suited towards overload<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>control, not load balancing (and I will await Paul J.'s correction to my<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>assertion).<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>The intent in draft-bessis-dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing is to<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>*always* report the current load to give the upstream SIP proxy an<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>indication of the health of the SIP server in the cluster.&nbsp; If one waits<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>until overload is imminent, then it may be too late since a sudden and<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>unanticipated burst of messages will put the SIP server in overload<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>rather quickly.<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;">
                <pre>It isn't clear to me from your draft if you are specifying the<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>algorithm by which the relative weights are used to determine the<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>probability of a request going to one server or another.<o:p></o:p></pre>
              </blockquote>
              <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>Yes, same way as RFC2782 does it.<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;">
                <pre>ISTM that it *does* matter. And it especially matters if there is an<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>implication that the upstream node's algorithm may depend on some<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>assumption or knowledge about the downstream nodes.<o:p></o:p></pre>
              </blockquote>
              <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>No knowledge, just a reported number that the upstream SIP proxy can<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>treat as a RFC2782-like weight indicator.&nbsp; Today, rfc3263-resolution<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>starts off with the SRV indicators in RFC2782, without any regard to<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>additional knowledge or assumption about downstream nodes.<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing is trying to use the same model, except<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>render the weight to be sensitive to the current traffic in the cluster<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>in real-time.<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;">
                <pre>And of course this method of reporting weights isn't sufficient to<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>drive a balancing algorithm that is sensitive to some requests<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>requiring more or different resources than others. (That seems to be a<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>real problem, though I don't know if we have a real solution for<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>it.)<o:p></o:p></pre>
              </blockquote>
              <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>Yes, that is a real problem, as is the problem of a SIP server in a<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>cluster that has a low weight and is thus not contacted with enough<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>frequency to merit more participation to the goodput.<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>It is well known in SIP that some methods are more onerous to process<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>than others --- from a proxying point of view, processing an INVITE with<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>forking and response aggregation is far more detrimental to resource<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>usage than is processing a BYE.&nbsp; Some existing literature techniques<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>thus add a coefficient to the weight of sending an INVITE versus a BYE.<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>At this time, the process outlined in dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>treats all requests the same, but we can definitely look at ways to<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>change this behaviour.<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>- vijay<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>--<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>Vijay K. Gurbani, Bell Laboratories, Alcatel-Lucent<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>1960 Lucent Lane, Rm. 9C-533, Naperville, Illinois 60566 (USA)<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>Email: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:vkg@%7bbell-labs.com,acm.org%7d">vkg@{bell-labs.com,acm.org}</a> / <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:vijay.gurbani@alcatel-lucent.com">vijay.gurbani@alcatel-lucent.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
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            </span></big></big></big><big style="font-weight: bold;"><big><big><span
              style="font-family: French Script MT;">Thierry Bessis</span></big></big></big>
      <div> </div>
      <div> </div>
      &nbsp;
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">IMS Solution: Architecture
        &amp; Product Management - ALTA Member</span><br
        style="font-family: Arial;">
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">&nbsp; Organization: ALU &gt; Carrier
        group &gt;
        Wireline BU &gt;&nbsp;</span><b> </b>IMS Sol Arch, SE, PdM<br>
      <img style="width: 242px; height: 66px;" alt="Alcatel-Lucent"
        src="cid:part3.02030502.06000404@alcatel-lucent.com"><br>
      &nbsp;
      <span style="font-family: Arial;"></span><span style="font-family:
        Arial;">1960 Lucent Lane - Room 6L-517</span><br
        style="font-family: Arial;">
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">&nbsp; Naperville, IL&nbsp;
        60563&nbsp; U
        S</span><br style="font-family: Arial;">
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">&nbsp; Tel/Fax: +1 630 979 7989</span><br
        style="font-family: Arial;">
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">&nbsp; Corporate IM:
        tbessis&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
        - Yahoo IM:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
        thierry_bessis</span><br>
      <br>
      <small>My WEB page:&nbsp;&nbsp; <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://ihgpweb.ih.lucent.com/~tbessis/">http://ihgpweb.ih.lucent.com/~tbessis/</a><br>
        My Calendar:&nbsp;&nbsp;
        <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=new_frs3175%40yahoo.fr">www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=new_frs3175%40yahoo.fr</a><br>
        ALTA Hot Line: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://alta.all.alcatel-lucent.com/hotline">http://alta.all.alcatel-lucent.com/hotline</a></small><br>
      <br>
      <small>Conference information:<br>
        2801 2801 (US):+1 800 771 8734 - (F):+33 800 941 674 - Access
        Code:
        9797989<br>
        others countries see: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://all.alcatel-lucent.com/audio">http://all.alcatel-lucent.com/audio</a></small><br>
      <br>
      <big style="font-weight: bold;"><big><span style="font-family:
            French Script MT;">Upcoming planned Business Trip:
            12 April - 14 April 2011</span></big></big><br>
      <big style="font-weight: bold;"><big><span style="font-family:
            French Script MT;">Upcoming planned Vacation: None</span></big></big>
    </div>
  </body>
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References: <4D755B9E.6030008@bell-labs.com>	<4D7566C1.40605@cisco.com> <4D756C47.1000509@bell-labs.com>	<4D7633F9.7000608@cisco.com> <4D768BEE.2060400@bell-labs.com>	<4D7698FD.4030501@cisco.com> <4D76A762.6090708@bell-labs.com>, <4D76C924.7050900@cisco.com> <CD5674C3CD99574EBA7432465FC13C1B220B5C155E@DC-US1MBEX4.global.avaya.com>
From: "Parthasarathi R (partr)" <partr@cisco.com>
To: "Worley, Dale R (Dale)" <dworley@avaya.com>, "Paul Kyzivat (pkyzivat)" <pkyzivat@cisco.com>, "Vijay K. Gurbani" <vkg@bell-labs.com>
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Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing
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Dale,
=20
I like the way you described the problem statement.=20

________________________________

From: dispatch-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Worley, Dale R (Dale)
Sent: Wed 3/9/2011 10:40 PM
To: Paul Kyzivat (pkyzivat); Vijay K. Gurbani
Cc: dispatch@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing



This is a fascinating subject.  On the way home from work, I started to =
frame a set of differential equations to model it.

The key, of course, is to have all of the servers reach full capacity =
*at the same time* if the presented load increases steadily.  That is =
how we maximize goodput under such circumstances.  (If there is spare =
capacity within the cluster of servers, it doesn't matter if the load on =
the servers is balanced or not, as goodput equals presented load.)

The crucial questions are "What is the algorithm for generating the =
number that the server presents to the load balancer?" and "What =
algorithm does the load balancer use for assigning work, given the =
numbers presented by the servers?"

<Partha> In case units (number) are well defined in the standard manner, =
it is possible to generate in the downstream entity and upstream (load =
balancer) will be able to understand and shall distribute the load based =
on the unit. IMO, The standard unit may be number of dialog or bandwidth =
available or any other . The selection of unit needs serious discussion =
to conclude somewhere. </Partha>=20

The draft (draft-bessis-dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing-00) seems to =
assume that the assignment algorithm is much the same as RFC 3263, to =
statistically send Wi/(sum(Wj)) of the load to server i (with Wi being =
the number reported by server i).  The draft gives little or no hint of =
what the generation algorithm will be.

In order for the mechanism to be standardized in a meaningful way, it =
must specify the generation algorithm sufficiently that a combination of =
servers that use generation algorithms in conformance with the standard =
will work together correctly -- as I said above, as the entire cluster =
nears full capacity, all servers much reach full capacity =
simultaneously.

t seems that we need to do a careful analysis of the behavior of the =
system near the point where "unused capacity of server i" is near 0 for =
all servers i.  The first question is to categorize generation functions =
by their behavior near the point "unused capacity =3D 0", that is, does =
the reported "weight" approach a non-zero number, does it approach zero =
linearly, does it approach zero quadratically, etc.?  I suspect that the =
system behaves well only when all servers use functions of the same =
form, and with the same constant on the leading term.  Intuitively, the =
correct answer seems to be to have the weight be "the unused capacity, =
measured in number of calls that can be handled".

<Partha> Considering calls as a unit works very well in deployed H.323 =
network wherein most of the calls consume resources lineraly (G711 or =
G729) calls </Partha>=20

This gets messier when we consider that the load is comes in quantized =
units (single calls) and has significant statistical fluctuations.  In =
particular, some functions that appear to work correctly in the =
"analytical" analysis outlined above my have bad behavior when presented =
with statistical fluctuations.

Additionally, the feedback from the servers to the load balancer will =
not be instantaneous, and the delays will introduce "control loop =
delays", which if not handled correctly might cause the system to =
oscillate.


<Partha> This problem shall be solved by creating the lower watermark =
and upper watermark for the action to be taken. Say above 80 means stop =
forwarding and but when it comes back to 75 only start forwarding, this =
mechanism helps in avoiding the oscillation due to delay </partha>


A different problem results from the fact that different calls may =
present decidedly different loads to a server, and that the server may =
have several different types of resource.  How does the server sensibly =
report the nature of its resources and the loading on each?  How does =
the load balancer estimate the resources required by an individual call? =


<partha> Two aspects are required to solve this issue:

1) Report the current state of the resource (mediactrl has some =
mechanism for reporting resource, =
draft-partha-sip-overload-resource-availability mention one another =
mechanism)

2) Maximum Consumption vector for a dialog which is a prior knowledge =
exchanged between servers through other mechanism.=20

In case the amount of available bandwidth required in the system as a =
unit, then the downstream shall report the available bandwidth and the =
amount of maximum consumption of the dialog shall be identified by =
maximum capacity mentioned in the dialog SDP. </Partha>

(Note that this problem is largely nonexistent in circuit-switched =
systems, as all calls present exactly the same load.)  (This is the =
problem that has bedevilled attempts to solve the problem in =
draft-partha-sip-overload-resource-availability.)

But I don't see any of the needed analysis in the draft, and I don't see =
any indication in the draft of a realization that this analysis needs to =
be done.  Until that is fixed, I predict that a solution will not be =
found, or worse, a solution that appears to work on paper but does not =
work in practice.

Dale
_______________________________________________
dispatch mailing list
dispatch@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch



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<HTML dir=3Dltr><HEAD><TITLE>Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing</TITLE>=0A=
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dunicode" http-equiv=3DContent-Type>=0A=
<META name=3DGENERATOR content=3D"MSHTML 8.00.6001.18928"></HEAD>=0A=
<BODY>=0A=
<DIV dir=3Dltr id=3DidOWAReplyText63982>=0A=
<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2 =
face=3DArial>Dale,</FONT></DIV>=0A=
<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>=0A=
<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial>I like the way&nbsp;you =
described the problem statement. </FONT></DIV></DIV>=0A=
<DIV dir=3Dltr><BR>=0A=
<HR tabIndex=3D-1>=0A=
<FONT size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><B>From:</B> dispatch-bounces@ietf.org on =
behalf of Worley, Dale R (Dale)<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wed 3/9/2011 10:40 =
PM<BR><B>To:</B> Paul Kyzivat (pkyzivat); Vijay K. Gurbani<BR><B>Cc:</B> =
dispatch@ietf.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dispatch] SIP load =
balancing<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>=0A=
<DIV>=0A=
<P><FONT size=3D2>This is a fascinating subject.&nbsp; On the way home =
from work, I started to frame a set of differential equations to model =
it.<BR><BR>The key, of course, is to have all of the servers reach full =
capacity *at the same time* if the presented load increases =
steadily.&nbsp; That is how we maximize goodput under such =
circumstances.&nbsp; (If there is spare capacity within the cluster of =
servers, it doesn't matter if the load on the servers is balanced or =
not, as goodput equals presented load.)<BR><BR>The crucial questions are =
"What is the algorithm for generating the number that the server =
presents to the load balancer?" and "What algorithm does the load =
balancer use for assigning work, given the numbers presented by the =
servers?"</FONT></P>=0A=
<P><FONT size=3D2>&lt;Partha&gt; In case units (number)&nbsp;are well =
defined in the standard manner, it is possible to generate in the =
downstream entity and upstream (load balancer) will be able to =
understand and shall distribute the load based on the unit. IMO, The =
standard unit may be&nbsp;number of dialog or bandwidth available or any =
other&nbsp;.&nbsp;The selection of unit&nbsp;needs serious discussion to =
conclude somewhere.&nbsp;&lt;/Partha&gt;&nbsp;<BR><BR>The draft =
(draft-bessis-dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing-00) seems to assume that =
the assignment algorithm is much the same as RFC 3263, to statistically =
send Wi/(sum(Wj)) of the load to server i (with Wi being the number =
reported by server i).&nbsp; The draft gives little or no hint of what =
the generation algorithm will be.<BR><BR>In order for the mechanism to =
be standardized in a meaningful way, it must specify the generation =
algorithm sufficiently that a combination of servers that use generation =
algorithms in conformance with the standard will work together correctly =
-- as I said above, as the entire cluster nears full capacity, all =
servers much reach full capacity simultaneously.<BR><BR>t seems that we =
need to do a careful analysis of the behavior of the system near the =
point where "unused capacity of server i" is near 0 for all servers =
i.&nbsp; The first question is to categorize generation functions by =
their behavior near the point "unused capacity =3D 0", that is, does the =
reported "weight" approach a non-zero number, does it approach zero =
linearly, does it approach zero quadratically, etc.?&nbsp; I suspect =
that the system behaves well only when all servers use functions of the =
same form, and with the same constant on the leading term.&nbsp; =
Intuitively, the correct answer seems to be to have the weight be "the =
unused capacity, measured in number of calls that can be =
handled".</FONT></P>=0A=
<P><FONT size=3D2>&lt;Partha&gt; Considering calls as a unit works very =
well&nbsp;in deployed&nbsp;H.323 network&nbsp;wherein most of the calls =
consume resources lineraly (G711 or G729) calls =
&lt;/Partha&gt;&nbsp;<BR><BR>This gets messier when we consider that the =
load is comes in quantized units (single calls) and has significant =
statistical fluctuations.&nbsp; In particular, some functions that =
appear to work correctly in the "analytical" analysis outlined above my =
have bad behavior when presented with statistical =
fluctuations.<BR><BR>Additionally, the feedback from the servers to the =
load balancer will not be instantaneous, and the delays will introduce =
"control loop delays", which if not handled correctly might cause the =
system to oscillate.<BR></FONT></P>=0A=
<P><FONT size=3D2>&lt;Partha&gt; This problem shall be solved by =
creating the lower watermark and upper watermark for the action to be =
taken. Say above 80 means stop forwarding and but when it comes back to =
75 only start forwarding, this mechanism helps in avoiding the =
oscillation due to delay &lt;/partha&gt;</FONT></P><FONT size=3D2>=0A=
<P><BR>A different problem results from the fact that different calls =
may present decidedly different loads to a server, and that the server =
may have several different types of resource.&nbsp; How does the server =
sensibly report the nature of its resources and the loading on =
each?&nbsp; How does the load balancer estimate the resources required =
by an individual call?&nbsp;</P>=0A=
<P>&lt;partha&gt;&nbsp;Two aspects are required to solve this issue:</P>=0A=
<P>1) Report the current state of the&nbsp;resource (mediactrl has some =
mechanism for reporting resource, =
draft-partha-sip-overload-resource-availability mention one another =
mechanism)</P>=0A=
<P>2) Maximum Consumption vector for a dialog&nbsp;which is a prior =
knowledge exchanged between servers through other mechanism. </P>=0A=
<P>In case the amount of available&nbsp;bandwidth required in the system =
as a unit, then the downstream shall report the available bandwidth and =
the amount of maximum consumption of the dialog shall be identified by =
maximum capacity mentioned in the dialog SDP. &lt;/Partha&gt;</P>=0A=
<P>(Note that this problem is largely nonexistent in circuit-switched =
systems, as all calls present exactly the same load.)&nbsp; (This is the =
problem that has bedevilled attempts to solve the problem in =
draft-partha-sip-overload-resource-availability.)<BR><BR>But I don't see =
any of the needed analysis in the draft, and I don't see any indication =
in the draft of a realization that this analysis needs to be done.&nbsp; =
Until that is fixed, I predict that a solution will not be found, or =
worse, a solution that appears to work on paper but does not work in =
practice.<BR><BR>Dale<BR>_______________________________________________<=
BR>dispatch mailing list<BR>dispatch@ietf.org<BR><A =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch">https://www.ietf.=
org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch</A><BR></P></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
------_=_NextPart_001_01CBDF56.B08B4278--

From fluffy@cisco.com  Thu Mar 10 12:16:45 2011
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From: Cullen Jennings <fluffy@cisco.com>
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Subject: [dispatch] New draft on RTCWeb Requirements and API draft-jennings-rtcweb-api
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I wrote up the start of a draft on requirements.=20

http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jennings-rtcweb-api-00

I think the key thing for the key thing for IETF working is starting to =
think about the requirements and what on the on the wire protocols are =
that we want to select. I included some API definition because I found =
it helpful to be thinking about that in this draft but that would not be =
part of the IETF work. That would be work I think W3C should do. The =
draft also touches on the of the security issues for media and signaling =
originating from browsers.=20

Cullen=20





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From: "Worley, Dale R (Dale)" <dworley@avaya.com>
To: Henry Sinnreich <henry.sinnreich@gmail.com>, Andrew Allen <aallen@rim.com>, "tanakai@nttdocomo.co.jp" <tanakai@nttdocomo.co.jp>,  "dispatch@ietf.org" <dispatch@ietf.org>
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 16:32:23 -0500
Thread-Topic: [dispatch] Revision of draft-allen-dispatch-imei-urn-as-instanceid
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Yes, there is a concern about the IETF's efforts being diverted into activi=
ties
that are unfriendly to the end-to-end architecture.  On the other hand, it =
is likely
that the walled gardens will not be so completely walled in the future, and=
 it would
be best to maintain as much technical alignment as is reasonable between th=
e
public Internet and various non-public networks

In this case, the tradeoff seems to me to favor advancing this I-D into an =
RFC, as
the IETF bandwidth that will be consumed is fairly small, and the future pr=
oblem to
be avoided is large:  It would be inconvenient to discover that a mobile se=
rvice
provider that wanted to make its SIP network more open was using URNs for
instance-ids that have been defined to have another purpose by the IETF.

Dale

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From: "Andrew Allen" <aallen@rim.com>
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Subject: Re: [dispatch] Revisionofdraft-allen-dispatch-imei-urn-as-instanceid
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Hi Henry,

I think then that it's a fair summary of your email to say that your
objections are of a political and philosophical nature related to your
view of what constitutes the internet and whether the IETF should be
involved in enhancing IETF protocols for stakeholders that utilize those
IETF protocols for deployments that some in the community might not
consider "the Internet" or "the pure Internet" or the "open e2e
Internet" rather than technical issues with the contents of the drafts.

While I don't want to start a general debate on what is "the Internet"
here I will state that in my view it's very difficult to exclude any
particular stakeholders and their deployments of IETF protocols from
being part of the Internet when those stakeholders are in many cases the
very same established telecommunications companies or ISPs that the vast
majority of the population in most countries use to obtain access to the
Internet. 

My understanding also is that IETF nearly a decade ago agreed to
cooperate with 3GPP (and other standards bodies) in developing and
enhancing internet protocols and that IETF specifically requested (more
like insisted) that any extensions or enhancements to IETF protocols
required by 3GPP be done within IETF according to the procedures defined
by IETF for enhancing IETF protocols and for registering namespaces etc.
These drafts simply comply with that agreed way of working between IETF
and 3GPP. To my knowledge this working agreement is still in effect. I
don't think it is the role of the dispatch WG to determine which
applications or deployments of SIP to support or cooperate with counter
to agreements previously made at IESG level.

Refusing cooperation based on what is considered not to be part of the
"open e2e Internet" is only likely to set up two (or more) competing
versions of the Internet resulting in the 21st century equivalent of the
standard rail gauge vs broad rail gauge communications interoperability
issue from the 19th century - effectively killing the goal of an open
e2e internet! As Dale indicated what is considered a walled garden today
may not be walled in the future (if I remember some very significant
walls came tumbling down during just the last decade of the 20th century
alone).

Different business models will be resolved through the market not by
creating competing incompatible technical solutions. 

In terms of the time used on discussion within dispatch I don't think
there is a need for much more discussion in dispatch. These drafts could
go ahead as AD sponsored without further WG involvement. As I understand
it the IMEI URN definition draft did not as part of the URN registration
process need to even be discussed in dispatch at all (although Dale
Worley's review was invaluable in improving the draft technically) as
the NIDs list was the fora for this discussion and where previous
versions of that draft were discussed.

It should be noted all we are talking about with regard to these drafts
is the registration of a URN namespace and definition of its usage as an
Instance ID as required by RFC 5626. If we can't agree that then what
future extensions can we agree?

Andrew

-----Original Message-----
From: Henry Sinnreich [mailto:henry.sinnreich@gmail.com] 
Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2011 11:03 AM
To: Andrew Allen; tanakai@nttdocomo.co.jp; dispatch@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [dispatch]
Revisionofdraft-allen-dispatch-imei-urn-as-instanceid

Hi Andrew,

I have generic objections to see the publication of yet another
informational RFC about practices in consortiums of closed networks in
the
IETF, for the following reasons:

* Using the RFC process as a publishing venue for organizations that
don't
explicitly do that in support of the open e2e Internet.

* The resources of the IETF are not unlimited, meeting time and email
time
to discuss is scarce and the IETF registries are just not scalable
enough to
support registrations for all the extensions that benefit countless
external
organizations and companies that deploy Internet technology.
New business plans and the required extensions pop up in an endless
fashion.
Big organizations such as you mention have their own resources to
publish
their internal technical documents and white papers if they desire to do
so.

Members of outside organizations are certainly doing everybody a good
service by informing via email of new standards/extensions in other
organization, such as you have done below, but such information need not
overload the Internet RFC process nor overload the Internet registries.

* Hard for SIP developers and right out impossible for application
developers.
Though SIP works fine indeed across the world; SIPit and the SIP Forum
take care of unavoidable problems still encountered by operators,
arguably
increasing SIP complexity for non-Internet purposes is not a good idea,
even
if new SIP extensions are labeled as just "informational". It makes it
even
more difficult for new developers entering the field to ever understand,
let
alone write code for some or all that has been published already about
SIP
for example. Checking right now there are 197 RFCs matching SIP and 78
I-Ds
found by the RFC search engine.

It is time to leave SIP alone and move on to other critical areas for
the
Internet, such as for example the future of applications that will be
discussed in the next IETF technical plenary on Monday, March 28.

With this in mind, I would rather not go into discussing your I-D in
detail,
though at first glance it seems technically correct and if it were
discussed
on the list, may indeed technically qualify as an informational RFC -
just
what I am arguing against.

These are all personal opinions. The chairs and ADs may or may not
discuss
or agree/disagree with. Your I-D is just a good opportunity to raise
these
issues. 

Note that I am not suggesting any voting on your I-D, if it will be
discussed, since for various reasons, the majority of folks attending
the
DISPATCH WG are from various outside organizations with business plans
that
may or may not fully embrace the open e2e Internet; a perfect legitimate
choice for them, but not  in the IETF (I just can't remember when ever
there
was a vote against any new I-D for SIP, since no cost was perceived by
those
voting).

Thanks,
Henry 


On 3/9/11 5:45 PM, "Andrew Allen" <aallen@rim.com> wrote:

> 
> Henry
> 
> Would you care to elaborate and explain your specific concerns?  How
is what
> is defined in these drafts potentially incompatible with the open, e2e
> architectural and in any other way technical conflict with the
Internet?
> 
> The two drafts do the following things:
> 
> One draft simply defines and registers with IANA a URN namespace
according to
> the procedures defined for doing that.
> 
> The other draft simply defines how this URN can be used as an instance
ID as
> required by RFC 5626.
> 
> SIP and the mechanisms in RFC 5626 are already being used in networks
defined
> by 3GPP and are being deployed by members of the GSMA. 3GPP and GSMA
have
> already defined this behavior using their existing device Identifiers
for
> instance ID generation in their specifications. These drafts complete
the
> process doing things the right way by reserving the namespace and
defining the
> usage of it using the IETF defined mechanisms for doing that.
> 
> Andrew
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Henry Sinnreich [mailto:henry.sinnreich@gmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 03:10 PM
> To: Itsuma TANAKA <tanakai@nttdocomo.co.jp>; dispatch@ietf.org
> <dispatch@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [dispatch]
Revisionofdraft-allen-dispatch-imei-urn-as-instanceid
> 
> Such work in the IETF would require IMO an explanation about its
> compatibility with the open, e2e architectural and other technical
> principles of the Internet. It actually seems to be the opposite.
> 
> For this reason, such work may be better accomplished in other
> organizations, so as to avoid architectural principle and other
technical
> conflicts. Simplicity and scalability comes to mind among other,
though this
> is better discussed elsewhere.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Henry Sinnreich
> 
> 
> On 3/9/11 8:54 AM, "Itsuma TANAKA" <tanakai@nttdocomo.co.jp> wrote:
> 
>> Dear All,
>> 
>> I work for NTT DOCOMO, Inc in Japan. and attend various 3GPP meetings
(SA2,
>> CT1, CT4, and CT3) and GSM Association (GSMA) Interworking, Roaming
Expert
>> Group (IREG), Roaming in LTE (RILTE) and Packet subgroup meetings.  I
serve
>> as a Vice Chair of GSMA IREG RILTE and Packet subgroups.
>> 
>> I would like to express my support of draft-montemurro-gsma-imei-urn
and the
>> associated draft-allen-dispatch-imei-urn-as-instanceid.
>> 
>> The reasons are exactly same as what Ricky Kaura (Samsung) expressed.
A
>> various 3GPP specifications (IMS Registration in 3GPP TS24.229, IMS
>> emergency calls in TS23.237 and TS24.237, ICS in TS23.292 and
TS24.292), and
>> GSMA document (GSMA PRD IR.92, "IMS Profile for Voice and SMS") are
using
>> these drafts.
>> 
>> These internet drafts are very important to support various key
features in
>> 3GPP and to enable GSMA Voice over LTE.  Therefore, I kindly would
like ask
>> that this work is progressed as quickly as possible in IETF.
>> 
>> 
>> Best regards,
>> 
>> Itsuma Tanaka
>> NTT DOCOMO
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> dispatch mailing list
>> dispatch@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> dispatch mailing list
> dispatch@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
> 
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From: "Parthasarathi R (partr)" <partr@cisco.com>
To: "Thierry Bessis" <Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com>, "Paul E. Jones" <paulej@packetizer.com>
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Thierry,
=20
Please read inline
=20
Thanks
Partha
________________________________

From: dispatch-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Thierry Bessis
Sent: Thu 3/10/2011 11:46 PM
To: Paul E. Jones
Cc: dispatch@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing


Paul,=20

I agree they are many similitudes ! :-)=20
But the question I think is: Can we make the two approaches compatible ? =


For instance, with our approach, it is fundamental that the weight =
represents a "Relative" occupation, and not an absolute capacity.=20
<Partha> The question is how to perform the "relative" operation without =
until understanding the capacity of the peer devices. Say Load balancer =
has 3 devices: 2 devices with 1x capacity and 1 device with 2x capacity. =
Here all devices will be able to provide the "relative" value without =
understanding the capacity of the other device. </Partha>

The first reason is that we found that loading continuously all the =
servers at the same utilization rate (same percentage) is the optimal =
way of loading a cluster. (We can discuss that if not agreed).=20
<Partha> I agree that same utilization rate is the optimal way but the =
question is how to achieve it.  Round robin algorithm works in case all =
devices have same capacity and same amount of load per call. In reality, =
there are multiple varying factor like call duration, different vareity =
of platform within the cluster (say Generation-1 10 devices and =
Generation-2 5 devies), different resource usage for the call, rate at =
which calls generation. </Partha>
=20
The second reason is that a relative occupation is very easy to derive =
from information already available: any system knows where it is in =
terms of CPU or Memory usage.
=20
<Partha> Converting CPU or Memory to weight is not explained your draft. =
It is the real algorithm which needs lot of discussion. Because =
preparing the mapping between CPU & Memory to weight will be =
mind-blogging activity </Partha>
=20
 In contrast, deriving a left capacity in terms of remaining sessions =
can be difficult: Host can be used by different applications and perform =
different duties, which can change over the day, all of them impacting =
their true capacity at a certain moment. Beside, as already discussed, =
different sessions require different resources, so there is a whole =
complication of dealing with a multitude of call profiles, that (again) =
are not even constant over the day.

Also, we do not want to derive some shedding decision from the weight.
=20
<Partha>  In case you specify, IETF SoC does not allow and so we want =
another value, I think that we are in same page. If not, I could not =
understand your argument. As you mentioned, all system will know CPU or =
memory usage and it is possible to come up the static or refreshable =
value saying that load shed has to happen when 85% of CPU utilization or =
90% of memory utilization. The different between our proposal is that =
there is no need of two value per message instead 1 value in each =
message & 1 value is static or in periodic manner  </Partha>
=20
 We want to rely on the OLC mechanism for that. As I mentioned before, =
deriving shedding from the weight is very sensitive to the way weights =
are calculated: we would need to specify exactly how the weight is =
calculated: this is impractical ! Also everybody would need to agree =
about specific threshold: What is the weight value threshold for =
shedding ?: Again this is more difficult, and different servers will =
certainly want to use different thresholds.   Also there is a =
contradiction: whether you are using relative or absolute weights, your =
weight should  zero (100% busy, or 0 sessions available) at the moment =
you are getting overloaded. So if you are 100% busy (or in average no =
room for new sessions), how to you tell how many sessions need to be =
shed ? You could be 100% busy with an offered load of 300% nominal (then =
you need to shed 66%), or be 100% busy at just the nominal load, (then =
you don't need to shed). This again shows this threshold issue I =
mentioned. In our implementation, we used to use to a common =
"utilization" information to do both optimal distribution and shedding, =
but we moved away from that because of those reasons: we found that each =
node indicating its requested rejection rate is much more robust and =
requires very little agreements.=20

Cordially,=20

Thierry


On 09-Mar-2011 22:15, Paul E. Jones wrote:=20

	Thierry,

	=20

	I think there is more in common than not.

	=20

	You compute a "weight" and we compute an "sce" that is, in my opinion, =
more or less the same: it's a value that indicates how much traffic can =
be directed toward the box relative to other peer devices.

	=20

	You want to do "load balancing" whereas we want to do "overload =
prevention".  Preventing overload means distributing load across boxes.  =
We are not proposing to perfectly balance the load, but the load is =
distributed nonetheless.

	=20

	Honestly, I just don't see a lot of difference, other than terminology. =
 The algorithm employed by the device directing traffic, but that =
algorithm is independent of the advertisement of a capacity/weight =
value.

	=20

	Paul

	=20

	From: Thierry Bessis [mailto:Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com]=20
	Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 12:26 PM
	To: Paul E. Jones
	Cc: dispatch@ietf.org
	Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing

	=20

	Thanks Paul for you detailed answer !=20
=09
	I've looked at your SCE proposal and your comments and my impression is =
that our two proposals are actually very different both from their =
intent perspective, and from their realization perspective.=20
=09
	The intent of our load balancing proposal is clearly continuous load =
balancing. Our suggested weight does try to figure any kind of remaining =
capacity in terms of sessions: it only indicates the instant (slightly =
smoothed) available resource, which integrates CPU, Memory and any other =
constrained resource. For the kind of usage we have in mind, (and for =
example), it does not matter if we have lot of sessions "left" when we =
have very little CPU to register those sessions: it is optimal to =
temporary offload this busy node rather than risking a CPU induced =
rejection or failure. When the node will have more CPU available, it =
will take more sessions, and may be even more than others, because it =
may have now more memory than others. If this node never have more CPU =
available, then its "session" capacity is actually unusable and the =
system correctly reflects that.=20
=09
	Also, the SOC was not intended for "dynamic" load distribution: it only =
provides the feedback when some shedding is expected (So already one or =
multiple nodes are about to be overloaded). Also, integrating the =
information from both SOC and SCE to take the distribution decision =
seems rather complicated to me. In our proposal, the distribution =
algorithm is simple, never changes, and is independent from SOC. We =
selected a node with weights always the same way, and we apply the SOC =
rejection when applicable to this node.
=09
	Cordially,=20
=09
	Thierry
=09
	On 08-Mar-2011 14:47, Paul E. Jones wrote:=20

	Thierry,

	=20

	Please see my comments below in green:

	=20

	=20

	From: Thierry Bessis [mailto:Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com]=20
	Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2011 12:35 PM
	To: Paul E. Jones
	Cc: 'Vijay K. Gurbani'; dispatch@ietf.org
	Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing

	=20

	Paul,=20
=09
	Please let me address some of your comments.=20
	I don't know what the SCE is, so please pardon me if I misunderstand =
something.=20
=09
	On 07-Mar-2011 23:05, Paul E. Jones wrote:=20

	Vijay,
	=20
	The Session Capacity Estimate (SCE) idea is actually quite similar to =
the
	"adaptive load balancing" draft, from what I can see.  SCE was proposed =
as a
	solution to the "overload" problem, the approach being one where we try =
to
	avoid overload by selecting a device that reports a higher capacity =
value.
	Thus, one could view it as "overload control through load balancing".  =
We
	didn't explicitly call it load balancing, though, because we were not =
trying
	to balance load (i.e., place the same load on all servers).  Rather, we =
just
	wanted to direct traffic to devices that we knew had available =
capacity.

	Agreed, the goal seems to be the same: avoiding or at least delaying =
overload.=20
	And your other comment too: our proposal does try to balance the load =
on all the servers. The rational is that it is very easy for each server =
to know where it is in terms of resource usage (for instance: I'm 60 =
percent resource loaded at this moment), and this is just the =
information you need to balance the traffic. Now it seems (but it is not =
clear, see below)  that the SCE "available capacity" is actually a real =
time feedback, so the information would be very similar actually. =
(What's the difference ? )

	=20

	PEJ: I think it is very similar.  SCE provides real-time feedback of =
the available resource capacity of a peer device.  The intent is to =
convey a single integer value that represents an estimate of the number =
of sessions the peer device can handle.  Note, this is not "message per =
second" or other, but the number of sessions.  The focus on SCE is on =
devices like "call agents", "session border controllers", stateful SIP =
proxies, etc.=20
=09
=09
=09

	=20
	In practice, the way SCE would be employed is the following:
	* SIP proxy, B2BUA, etc. (selector) would receive SCE capacity from
	   peer devices
	 * The selector would direct traffic toward the peer devices in a
	   round-robin fashion, taking into consideration the SCE value so
	   as to prevent exhausting resources on any given peer device

	I see a contradiction here: if it is round-robin, it does not take into =
account the SCE value.=20
	Is that something more like a weighted round-robin algorithm ?=20

	=20

	PEJ: As I mention below, the algorithm used to select a peer device is =
not a part of the SCE draft.  One can use any mechanism.  The SCE draft =
merely advertises a session capacity estimate.  We've found round-robin =
to be a simple approach that works, as it distributes load relatively =
uniformly, but stops directing traffic toward devices that report an SCE =
value that is below a specified threshold. Other input could be =
considered, but we deliberately left the algorithm outside the scope of =
SCE.
=09
=09
=09

	 * Once the peer's SCE value dropped below a given "low-water mark",
	   the peer device would be less favored and not given traffic until
	   the SCE value increases above the low-water mark (OPTIONS "ping"
	   messages may be used to determine the SCE value in the event that
	   there is no other traffic)

	Why would we wait for a lower mark before to influence the distribution =
? Also is that less favored, or given no traffic ?=20

	=20

	PEJ: With our use of SCE, we're not trying to "balance" the load, per =
se.  One certainly could do that, but in order to balance the load on =
peer devices when they are out of balance, one must direct multiple new =
sessions toward the same device.  That is not always desirable since new =
sessions usually consume more resources temporarily than established =
sessions.  So, we try to burden a peer device by throwing a number of =
new sessions toward the peer by distributing them in a round-robin =
fashion.  Again, though, the approach taken is outside the scope of the =
SCE draft.

	=20

=09
	The later has stability issues.  And why do we need ping Options when =
there is no traffic ?
	 If there is no traffic (or very little), should we care about optimal =
distribution from this source ?

	=20

	PEJ: The assumption is that a peer device might also have several =
peers.  So, while device A1 may not be directing traffic toward device =
B, perhaps A2, A3, and A4 are.  We can use OPTIONS "ping" messages to =
get current SCE information.

=09
=09
=09
=09

	 * The current SOC overload control mechanism would be used to
	   to prevent message overloading, as SCE only focuses on resource
	   overloading (e.g., memory, CPU, disk space, DSPs)

	I don't see this difference here (message overload versus resource =
overload ? ) . To me, SOC focuses on source shedding, while SCE seems to =
focus on improved load distribution, just like our proposal.

	=20

	PEJ: A peer device might be able to handle 18,000 new sessions, but =
perhaps it can only handle them at a rate of 100 per second.  We would =
use SCE to determine that a peer can handle new sessions, while we would =
use the methods SOC is defining to prevent message overload so we do not =
send 200 INVITEs per second to the peer.  (Use of the SOC mechanism =
might prove to work better than our current round-robin approach, but =
we've not tested it.)=20
=09
=09
=09

	=20
	Note that the "round-robin" approach may or may not be preferred and is =
not
	required in our draft.  I've found this approach works pretty well, but =
one
	may prefer to use a particular weighting that is more complex.  I don't
	think local decisions in the box need to be subject to standardization: =
we
	just need to standardize the signaling to enable such decisions.

	I believe the signaling is not enough. The deep meaning of the feedback =
parameter needs to be clarified too.=20
	For example, in our proposal, the feedback is simply the current =
utilization rate of the node (very simple).

	=20

	PEJ: That sounds similar to SCE.  An SCE-capable device advertises to =
its peer how many new sessions it can handle given the number of =
sessions it is currently handling.=20
=09
	Also the expectation needs to be clarified because it has a very =
important impact on the recommended behavior in case of overload.=20
	The solution that we propose constantly tries to balance load in the =
cluster of servers. Therefore, in case the SOC shedding kicks in, there =
is NOT NEED to repeat the message elsewhere in the cluster because it is =
balanced already (So no other server has more capacity). This is a huge =
advantage for the network stability as message repeat tends to spread =
the overload and collapse the cluster.=20
=09
=09
=09

	In any case, it certainly looks like we're thinking along the same =
lines.

	Yes I agree.=20
=09
=09
=09

	PEJ: If you haven't already, have a look at our draft:

	http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jones-sip-overload-sce-00 =
<http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jones-sip-overload-sce-00>=20

	=20

	It is now expired, but your draft suggests there is still life in this =
approach.  We should look to harmonize them, perhaps.

	=20

	Paul

	=20

=09
	Cordially,=20
=09
	Thierry
=09
=09
=09

	=20
	Paul
	=20

		-----Original Message-----
		From: dispatch-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:dispatch-bounces@ietf.org] On
		Behalf Of Vijay K. Gurbani
		Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 6:38 PM
		To: dispatch@ietf.org
		Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing
		=20
		Paul: Thank you for your input.  More inline.
		=20
		On 03/07/2011 05:14 PM, Paul Kyzivat wrote:

			Vijay,
			IIUC, the algorithm you have proposed is similar to the one Paul =
Jones
			has proposed - with the main difference being the numeric range of =
the
			weight. Do I have that right?

		=20
		I believe that Paul J.'s algorithm is more suited towards overload
		control, not load balancing (and I will await Paul J.'s correction to =
my
		assertion).
		=20
		The intent in draft-bessis-dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing is to
		*always* report the current load to give the upstream SIP proxy an
		indication of the health of the SIP server in the cluster.  If one =
waits
		until overload is imminent, then it may be too late since a sudden and
		unanticipated burst of messages will put the SIP server in overload
		rather quickly.
		=20

			It isn't clear to me from your draft if you are specifying the
			algorithm by which the relative weights are used to determine the
			probability of a request going to one server or another.

		=20
		Yes, same way as RFC2782 does it.
		=20

			ISTM that it *does* matter. And it especially matters if there is an
			implication that the upstream node's algorithm may depend on some
			assumption or knowledge about the downstream nodes.

		=20
		No knowledge, just a reported number that the upstream SIP proxy can
		treat as a RFC2782-like weight indicator.  Today, rfc3263-resolution
		starts off with the SRV indicators in RFC2782, without any regard to
		additional knowledge or assumption about downstream nodes.
		dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing is trying to use the same model, =
except
		render the weight to be sensitive to the current traffic in the =
cluster
		in real-time.
		=20

			And of course this method of reporting weights isn't sufficient to
			drive a balancing algorithm that is sensitive to some requests
			requiring more or different resources than others. (That seems to be =
a
			real problem, though I don't know if we have a real solution for
			it.)

		=20
		Yes, that is a real problem, as is the problem of a SIP server in a
		cluster that has a low weight and is thus not contacted with enough
		frequency to merit more participation to the goodput.
		=20
		It is well known in SIP that some methods are more onerous to process
		than others --- from a proxying point of view, processing an INVITE =
with
		forking and response aggregation is far more detrimental to resource
		usage than is processing a BYE.  Some existing literature techniques
		thus add a coefficient to the weight of sending an INVITE versus a =
BYE.
		At this time, the process outlined in dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing
		treats all requests the same, but we can definitely look at ways to
		change this behaviour.
		=20
		Thanks,
		=20
		- vijay
		--
		Vijay K. Gurbani, Bell Laboratories, Alcatel-Lucent
		1960 Lucent Lane, Rm. 9C-533, Naperville, Illinois 60566 (USA)
		Email: vkg@{bell-labs.com,acm.org} =
<mailto:vkg@%7bbell-labs.com,acm.org%7d>  / =
vijay.gurbani@alcatel-lucent.com
		Web:   http://ect.bell-labs.com/who/vkg/
		_______________________________________________
		dispatch mailing list
		dispatch@ietf.org
		https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch

	=20
	_______________________________________________
	dispatch mailing list
	dispatch@ietf.org
	https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch

	=20

	--=20
	--=20
	Cordially,=20
	Thierry Bessis=20

	  IMS Solution: Architecture & Product Management - ALTA Member
	  Organization: ALU > Carrier group > Wireline BU >  IMS Sol Arch, SE, =
PdM
	=20
	  1960 Lucent Lane - Room 6L-517
	  Naperville, IL  60563  U S
	  Tel/Fax: +1 630 979 7989
	  Corporate IM: tbessis    - Yahoo IM:     thierry_bessis
=09
	My WEB page:   http://ihgpweb.ih.lucent.com/~tbessis/
	My Calendar:   =
www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=3Dnew_frs3175%40yahoo.fr
	ALTA Hot Line: http://alta.all.alcatel-lucent.com/hotline
=09
	Conference information:
	2801 2801 (US):+1 800 771 8734 - (F):+33 800 941 674 - Access Code: =
9797989
	others countries see: http://all.alcatel-lucent.com/audio
=09
	Upcoming planned Business Trip: 12 April - 14 April 2011
	Upcoming planned Vacation: None=20

	=20
	=20
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	https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch

	=20

	--=20
	--=20
	Cordially,=20
	Thierry Bessis=20

	  IMS Solution: Architecture & Product Management - ALTA Member
	  Organization: ALU > Carrier group > Wireline BU >  IMS Sol Arch, SE, =
PdM
=09
	  1960 Lucent Lane - Room 6L-517
	  Naperville, IL  60563  U S
	  Tel/Fax: +1 630 979 7989
	  Corporate IM: tbessis    - Yahoo IM:     thierry_bessis
=09
	My WEB page:   http://ihgpweb.ih.lucent.com/~tbessis/
	My Calendar:   =
www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=3Dnew_frs3175%40yahoo.fr
	ALTA Hot Line: http://alta.all.alcatel-lucent.com/hotline
=09
	Conference information:
	2801 2801 (US):+1 800 771 8734 - (F):+33 800 941 674 - Access Code: =
9797989
	others countries see: http://all.alcatel-lucent.com/audio
=09
	Upcoming planned Business Trip: 12 April - 14 April 2011
	Upcoming planned Vacation: None=20

=09
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--=20
--=20
Cordially,=20
Thierry Bessis=20
  IMS Solution: Architecture & Product Management - ALTA Member
  Organization: ALU > Carrier group > Wireline BU >  IMS Sol Arch, SE, =
PdM
=20
  1960 Lucent Lane - Room 6L-517
  Naperville, IL  60563  U S
  Tel/Fax: +1 630 979 7989
  Corporate IM: tbessis    - Yahoo IM:     thierry_bessis

My WEB page:   http://ihgpweb.ih.lucent.com/~tbessis/
My Calendar:   =
www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=3Dnew_frs3175%40yahoo.fr
ALTA Hot Line: http://alta.all.alcatel-lucent.com/hotline

Conference information:
2801 2801 (US):+1 800 771 8734 - (F):+33 800 941 674 - Access Code: =
9797989
others countries see: http://all.alcatel-lucent.com/audio

Upcoming planned Business Trip: 12 April - 14 April 2011
Upcoming planned Vacation: None=20

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<HTML dir=3Dltr><HEAD><TITLE>Thierry's signature</TITLE>=0A=
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<DIV dir=3Dltr id=3DidOWAReplyText94718>=0A=
<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2 =
face=3DArial>Thierry,</FONT></DIV>=0A=
<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>=0A=
<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial>Please read =
inline</FONT></DIV>=0A=
<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>=0A=
<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial>Thanks</FONT></DIV>=0A=
<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial>Partha</FONT></DIV>=0A=
<DIV dir=3Dltr>=0A=
<HR tabIndex=3D-1>=0A=
<FONT size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><B>From:</B> dispatch-bounces@ietf.org on =
behalf of Thierry Bessis<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thu 3/10/2011 11:46 =
PM<BR><B>To:</B> Paul E. Jones<BR><B>Cc:</B> =
dispatch@ietf.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dispatch] SIP load =
balancing<BR></FONT><BR></DIV></DIV>=0A=
<DIV>Paul, <BR><BR>I agree they are many similitudes ! <SPAN =
class=3Dmoz-smiley-s1><SPAN>:-) </SPAN></SPAN><BR>But the question I =
think is: Can we make the two approaches compatible ? <BR><BR>For =
instance, with our approach, it is fundamental that the weight =
represents a "Relative" occupation, and not an absolute capacity. </DIV>=0A=
<DIV>&lt;Partha&gt; The question is how to perform the "relative" =
operation without until understanding the capacity&nbsp;of the peer =
devices. Say Load balancer has&nbsp;3 devices: 2 devices with 1x =
capacity and 1 device with 2x capacity. Here all devices will be able to =
provide the "relative" value without understanding the capacity of the =
other device.&nbsp;&lt;/Partha&gt;</DIV>=0A=
<DIV><BR>The first reason is that we found that loading continuously all =
the servers at the same utilization rate (same percentage) is the =
optimal way of loading a cluster. (We can discuss that if not agreed). =
</DIV>=0A=
<DIV>&lt;Partha&gt; I agree&nbsp;that same utilization rate is the =
optimal way but the question is how to achieve it.&nbsp;&nbsp;Round =
robin algorithm works in case all devices have same capacity and same =
amount of load per call. In reality, there are multiple varying factor =
like&nbsp;call duration, different vareity of platform within the =
cluster (say Generation-1 10 devices and Generation-2 5 devies), =
different resource usage for the call, rate at which calls generation. =
&lt;/Partha&gt;</DIV>=0A=
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>=0A=
<DIV>The second reason is that a relative occupation is very easy to =
derive from information already available: any system knows where it is =
in terms of CPU or Memory usage.</DIV>=0A=
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>=0A=
<DIV>&lt;Partha&gt; Converting CPU or Memory to weight is not explained =
your draft. It is the real algorithm which needs lot of discussion. =
Because preparing the mapping between CPU &amp; Memory to weight =
will&nbsp;be mind-blogging activity&nbsp;&lt;/Partha&gt;</DIV>=0A=
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>=0A=
<DIV>&nbsp;In contrast, deriving a left capacity in terms of remaining =
sessions can be difficult: Host can be used by different applications =
and perform different duties, which can change over the day, all of them =
impacting their true capacity at a certain moment. Beside, as already =
discussed, different sessions require different resources, so there is a =
whole complication of dealing with a multitude of call profiles, that =
(again) are not even constant over the day.<BR><BR>Also, we do not want =
to derive some shedding decision from the weight.</DIV>=0A=
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>=0A=
<DIV>&lt;Partha&gt;&nbsp; In case you specify, IETF SoC does not allow =
and so we want another value, I think that we are in same page. If not, =
I could not understand&nbsp;your argument.&nbsp;As you mentioned, all =
system will know CPU or memory usage and it is possible to come up the =
static or refreshable value saying that load shed has to happen when 85% =
of CPU utilization or&nbsp;90% of memory utilization. The different =
between our proposal&nbsp;is that there is no need&nbsp;of =
two&nbsp;value per message&nbsp;instead 1 value in each message &amp; =
1&nbsp;value is static or in periodic =
manner&nbsp;&nbsp;&lt;/Partha&gt;</DIV>=0A=
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>=0A=
<DIV>&nbsp;We want to rely on the OLC mechanism for that. As I mentioned =
before, deriving shedding from the weight is very sensitive to the way =
weights are calculated: we would need to specify exactly how the weight =
is calculated: this is impractical ! Also everybody would need to agree =
about specific threshold: What is the weight value threshold for =
shedding ?: Again this is more difficult, and different servers will =
certainly want to use different thresholds. &nbsp; Also there is a =
contradiction: whether you are using relative or absolute weights, your =
weight should&nbsp; zero (100% busy, or 0 sessions available) at the =
moment you are getting overloaded. So if you are 100% busy (or in =
average no room for new sessions), how to you tell how many sessions =
need to be shed ? You could be 100% busy with an offered load of 300% =
nominal (then you need to shed 66%), or be 100% busy at just the nominal =
load, (then you don't need to shed). This again shows this threshold =
issue I mentioned. In our implementation, we used to use to a common =
"utilization" information to do both optimal distribution and shedding, =
but we moved away from that because of those reasons: we found that each =
node indicating its requested rejection rate is much more robust and =
requires very little agreements. <BR><BR>Cordially, =
<BR><BR>Thierry<BR><BR><BR>On 09-Mar-2011 22:15, Paul E. Jones wrote: =
</DIV>=0A=
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<DIV class=3DWordSection1>=0A=
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: =
11pt">Thierry,</SPAN></P>=0A=
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: =
11pt"></SPAN>&nbsp;</P>=0A=
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: =
11pt">I think there is more in common than not.</SPAN></P>=0A=
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: =
11pt"></SPAN>&nbsp;</P>=0A=
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: =
11pt">You compute a &#8220;weight&#8221; and we compute an =
&#8220;sce&#8221; that is, in my opinion, more or less the same: =
it&#8217;s a value that indicates how much traffic can be directed =
toward the box relative to other peer devices.</SPAN></P>=0A=
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: =
11pt"></SPAN>&nbsp;</P>=0A=
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: =
11pt">You want to do &#8220;load balancing&#8221; whereas we want to do =
&#8220;overload prevention&#8221;.&nbsp; Preventing overload means =
distributing load across boxes.&nbsp; We are not proposing to perfectly =
balance the load, but the load is distributed nonetheless.</SPAN></P>=0A=
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: =
11pt"></SPAN>&nbsp;</P>=0A=
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: =
11pt">Honestly, I just don&#8217;t see a lot of difference, other than =
terminology.&nbsp; The algorithm employed by the device directing =
traffic, but that algorithm is independent of the advertisement of a =
capacity/weight value.</SPAN></P>=0A=
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: =
11pt"></SPAN>&nbsp;</P>=0A=
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: =
11pt">Paul</SPAN></P>=0A=
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: =
11pt"></SPAN>&nbsp;</P>=0A=
<DIV style=3D"BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: 1.5pt solid; =
PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: =
medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0in">=0A=
<DIV>=0A=
<DIV style=3D"BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; =
PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: =
rgb(181,196,223) 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">=0A=
<P class=3DMsoNormal><B><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: windowtext; FONT-SIZE: =
10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: windowtext; FONT-SIZE: =
10pt"> Thierry Bessis [<A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-freetext =
href=3D"mailto:Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com">mailto:Thierry.Bessis@a=
lcatel-lucent.com</A>] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, March 09, 2011 12:26 =
PM<BR><B>To:</B> Paul E. Jones<BR><B>Cc:</B> <A =
class=3Dmoz-txt-link-abbreviated =
href=3D"mailto:dispatch@ietf.org">dispatch@ietf.org</A><BR><B>Subject:</B=
> Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing</SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>=0A=
<P class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;</P>=0A=
<P class=3DMsoNormal>Thanks Paul for you detailed answer ! <BR><BR>I've =
looked at your SCE proposal and your comments and my impression is that =
our two proposals are actually very different both from their intent =
perspective, and from their realization perspective. <BR><BR>The intent =
of our load balancing proposal is clearly continuous load balancing. Our =
suggested weight does try to figure any kind of remaining capacity in =
terms of sessions: it only indicates the instant (slightly smoothed) =
available resource, which integrates CPU, Memory and any other =
constrained resource. For the kind of usage we have in mind, (and for =
example), it does not matter if we have lot of sessions "left" when we =
have very little CPU to register those sessions: it is optimal to =
temporary offload this busy node rather than risking a CPU induced =
rejection or failure. When the node will have more CPU available, it =
will take more sessions, and may be even more than others, because it =
may have now more memory than others. If this node never have more CPU =
available, then its "session" capacity is actually unusable and the =
system correctly reflects that. <BR><BR>Also, the SOC was not intended =
for "dynamic" load distribution: it only provides the feedback when some =
shedding is expected (So already one or multiple nodes are about to be =
overloaded). Also, integrating the information from both SOC and SCE to =
take the distribution decision seems rather complicated to me. In our =
proposal, the distribution algorithm is simple, never changes, and is =
independent from SOC. We selected a node with weights always the same =
way, and we apply the SOC rejection when applicable to this =
node.<BR><BR>Cordially, <BR><BR>Thierry<BR><BR>On 08-Mar-2011 14:47, =
Paul E. Jones wrote: </P>=0A=
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Thierry,</SPAN></P>=0A=
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN>&nbsp;</P>=0A=
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Please see my =
comments below in green</SPAN><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); =
FONT-SIZE: 11pt">:</SPAN></P>=0A=
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN>&nbsp;</P>=0A=
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN>&nbsp;</P>=0A=
<DIV style=3D"BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: 1.5pt solid; =
PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: =
medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0in">=0A=
<DIV>=0A=
<DIV style=3D"BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; =
PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: =
1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">=0A=
<P class=3DMsoNormal><B><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: windowtext; FONT-SIZE: =
10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: windowtext; FONT-SIZE: =
10pt"> Thierry Bessis [<A =
href=3D"mailto:Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com">mailto:Thierry.Bessis@a=
lcatel-lucent.com</A>] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, March 08, 2011 12:35 =
PM<BR><B>To:</B> Paul E. Jones<BR><B>Cc:</B> 'Vijay K. Gurbani'; <A =
href=3D"mailto:dispatch@ietf.org">dispatch@ietf.org</A><BR><B>Subject:</B=
> Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing</SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>=0A=
<P class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;</P>=0A=
<P class=3DMsoNormal>Paul, <BR><BR>Please let me address some of your =
comments. <BR>I don't know what the SCE is, so please pardon me if I =
misunderstand something. <BR><BR>On 07-Mar-2011 23:05, Paul E. Jones =
wrote: </P><PRE>Vijay,</PRE><PRE>&nbsp;</PRE><PRE>The Session Capacity =
Estimate (SCE) idea is actually quite similar to the</PRE><PRE>"adaptive =
load balancing" draft, from what I can see.&nbsp; SCE was proposed as =
a</PRE><PRE>solution to the "overload" problem, the approach being one =
where we try to</PRE><PRE>avoid overload by selecting a device that =
reports a higher capacity value.</PRE><PRE>Thus, one could view it as =
"overload control through load balancing".&nbsp; We</PRE><PRE>didn't =
explicitly call it load balancing, though, because we were not =
trying</PRE><PRE>to balance load (i.e., place the same load on all =
servers). &nbsp;Rather, we just</PRE><PRE>wanted to direct traffic to =
devices that we knew had available capacity.</PRE>=0A=
<P class=3DMsoNormal>Agreed, the goal seems to be the same: avoiding or =
at least delaying overload. <BR>And your other comment too: our proposal =
does try to balance the load on all the servers. The rational is that it =
is very easy for each server to know where it is in terms of resource =
usage (for instance: I'm 60 percent resource loaded at this moment), and =
this is just the information you need to balance the traffic. Now it =
seems (but it is not clear, see below)&nbsp; that the SCE "available =
capacity" is actually a real time feedback, so the information would be =
very similar actually. (What's the difference ? )</P>=0A=
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: =
11pt"></SPAN>&nbsp;</P>=0A=
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: rgb(0,176,80); FONT-SIZE: =
11pt">PEJ: I think it is very similar.&nbsp; SCE provides real-time =
feedback of the available resource capacity of a peer device.&nbsp; The =
intent is to convey a single integer value that represents an estimate =
of the number of sessions the peer device can handle.&nbsp; Note, this =
is not &#8220;message per second&#8221; or other, but the number of =
sessions.&nbsp; The focus on SCE is on devices like &#8220;call =
agents&#8221;, &#8220;session border controllers&#8221;, stateful SIP =
proxies, etc.</SPAN> <BR><BR><BR></P><PRE>&nbsp;</PRE><PRE>In practice, =
the way SCE would be employed is the following:</PRE><PRE>* SIP proxy, =
B2BUA, etc. (selector) would receive SCE capacity =
from</PRE><PRE>&nbsp;&nbsp; peer devices</PRE><PRE> * The selector would =
direct traffic toward the peer devices in a</PRE><PRE>&nbsp;&nbsp; =
round-robin fashion, taking into consideration the SCE value =
so</PRE><PRE>&nbsp;&nbsp; as to prevent exhausting resources on any =
given peer device</PRE>=0A=
<P class=3DMsoNormal>I see a contradiction here: if it is round-robin, =
it does not take into account the SCE value. <BR>Is that something more =
like a weighted round-robin algorithm ? </P>=0A=
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: =
11pt"></SPAN>&nbsp;</P>=0A=
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: rgb(0,176,80); FONT-SIZE: =
11pt">PEJ: As I mention below, the algorithm used to select a peer =
device is not a part of the SCE draft.&nbsp; One can use any =
mechanism.&nbsp; The SCE draft merely advertises a session capacity =
estimate.&nbsp; We&#8217;ve found round-robin to be a simple approach =
that works, as it distributes load relatively uniformly, but stops =
directing traffic toward devices that report an SCE value that is below =
a specified threshold. Other input could be considered, but we =
deliberately left the algorithm outside the scope of =
SCE.</SPAN><BR><BR><BR></P><PRE> * Once the peer's SCE value dropped =
below a given "low-water mark",</PRE><PRE>&nbsp;&nbsp; the peer device =
would be less favored and not given traffic until</PRE><PRE>&nbsp;&nbsp; =
the SCE value increases above the low-water mark (OPTIONS =
"ping"</PRE><PRE>&nbsp;&nbsp; messages may be used to determine the SCE =
value in the event that</PRE><PRE>&nbsp;&nbsp; there is no other =
traffic)</PRE>=0A=
<P class=3DMsoNormal>Why would we wait for a lower mark before to =
influence the distribution ? Also is that less favored, or given no =
traffic ? </P>=0A=
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: =
11pt"></SPAN>&nbsp;</P>=0A=
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: rgb(0,176,80); FONT-SIZE: =
11pt">PEJ: With our use of SCE, we&#8217;re not trying to =
&#8220;balance&#8221; the load, per se.&nbsp; One certainly could do =
that, but in order to balance the load on peer devices when they are out =
of balance, one must direct multiple new sessions toward the same =
device.&nbsp; That is not always desirable since new sessions usually =
consume more resources temporarily than established sessions.&nbsp; So, =
we try to burden a peer device by throwing a number of new sessions =
toward the peer by distributing them in a round-robin fashion.&nbsp; =
Again, though, the approach taken is outside the scope of the SCE =
draft.</SPAN></P>=0A=
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: =
11pt"></SPAN>&nbsp;</P>=0A=
<P class=3DMsoNormal><BR>The later has stability issues.&nbsp; And why =
do we need ping Options when there is no traffic ?<BR>&nbsp;If there is =
no traffic (or very little), should we care about optimal distribution =
from this source ?</P>=0A=
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: =
11pt"></SPAN>&nbsp;</P>=0A=
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: rgb(0,176,80); FONT-SIZE: =
11pt">PEJ: The assumption is that a peer device might also have several =
peers.&nbsp; So, while device A1 may not be directing traffic toward =
device B, perhaps A2, A3, and A4 are.&nbsp; We can use OPTIONS =
&#8220;ping&#8221; messages to get current SCE information.</SPAN></P>=0A=
<P class=3DMsoNormal><BR><BR><BR></P><PRE>&nbsp;* The current SOC =
overload control mechanism would be used to</PRE><PRE>&nbsp;&nbsp; to =
prevent message overloading, as SCE only focuses on =
resource</PRE><PRE>&nbsp;&nbsp; overloading (e.g., memory, CPU, disk =
space, DSPs)</PRE>=0A=
<P class=3DMsoNormal>I don't see this difference here (message overload =
versus resource overload ? ) . To me, SOC focuses on source shedding, =
while SCE seems to focus on improved load distribution, just like our =
proposal.</P>=0A=
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: =
11pt"></SPAN>&nbsp;</P>=0A=
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: rgb(0,176,80); FONT-SIZE: =
11pt">PEJ: A peer device might be able to handle 18,000 new sessions, =
but perhaps it can only handle them at a rate of 100 per second.&nbsp; =
We would use SCE to determine that a peer can handle new sessions, while =
we would use the methods SOC is defining to prevent message overload so =
we do not send 200 INVITEs per second to the peer.&nbsp; (Use of the SOC =
mechanism might prove to work better than our current round-robin =
approach, but we&#8217;ve not tested it.)</SPAN> =
<BR><BR><BR></P><PRE>&nbsp;</PRE><PRE>Note that the "round-robin" =
approach may or may not be preferred and is not</PRE><PRE>required in =
our draft.&nbsp; I've found this approach works pretty well, but =
one</PRE><PRE>may prefer to use a particular weighting that is more =
complex.&nbsp; I don't</PRE><PRE>think local decisions in the box need =
to be subject to standardization: we</PRE><PRE>just need to standardize =
the signaling to enable such decisions.</PRE>=0A=
<P class=3DMsoNormal>I believe the signaling is not enough. The deep =
meaning of the feedback parameter needs to be clarified too. <BR>For =
example, in our proposal, the feedback is simply the current utilization =
rate of the node (very simple).</P>=0A=
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: =
11pt"></SPAN>&nbsp;</P>=0A=
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: rgb(0,176,80); FONT-SIZE: =
11pt">PEJ: That sounds similar to SCE.&nbsp; An SCE-capable device =
advertises to its peer how many new sessions it can handle given the =
number of sessions it is currently handling.</SPAN> <BR><BR>Also the =
expectation needs to be clarified because it has a very important impact =
on the recommended behavior in case of overload. <BR>The solution that =
we propose constantly tries to balance load in the cluster of servers. =
Therefore, in case the SOC shedding kicks in, there is NOT NEED to =
repeat the message elsewhere in the cluster because it is balanced =
already (So no other server has more capacity). This is a huge advantage =
for the network stability as message repeat tends to spread the overload =
and collapse the cluster. <BR><BR><BR></P><PRE>In any case, it certainly =
looks like we're thinking along the same lines.</PRE>=0A=
<P class=3DMsoNormal>Yes I agree. <BR><BR><BR></P>=0A=
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: rgb(0,176,80); FONT-SIZE: =
11pt">PEJ: If you haven&#8217;t already, have a look at our =
draft:</SPAN></P>=0A=
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: rgb(0,176,80); FONT-SIZE: =
11pt"><A =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jones-sip-overload-sce-00"><SPAN=
 style=3D"COLOR: =
rgb(0,176,80)">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jones-sip-overload-sce-00=
</SPAN></A></SPAN></P>=0A=
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: rgb(0,176,80); FONT-SIZE: =
11pt"></SPAN>&nbsp;</P>=0A=
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: rgb(0,176,80); FONT-SIZE: =
11pt">It is now expired, but your draft suggests there is still life in =
this approach.&nbsp; We should look to harmonize them, =
perhaps.</SPAN></P>=0A=
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: rgb(0,176,80); FONT-SIZE: =
11pt"></SPAN>&nbsp;</P>=0A=
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: rgb(0,176,80); FONT-SIZE: =
11pt">Paul</SPAN></P>=0A=
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: =
11pt"></SPAN>&nbsp;</P>=0A=
<P class=3DMsoNormal><BR>Cordially, =
<BR><BR>Thierry<BR><BR><BR></P><PRE>&nbsp;</PRE><PRE>Paul</PRE><PRE>&nbsp=
;</PRE>=0A=
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: =
5pt"><PRE>-----Original Message-----</PRE><PRE>From: <A =
href=3D"mailto:dispatch-bounces@ietf.org">dispatch-bounces@ietf.org</A> =
[<A =
href=3D"mailto:dispatch-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dispatch-bounces@ietf.or=
g</A>] On</PRE><PRE>Behalf Of Vijay K. Gurbani</PRE><PRE>Sent: Monday, =
March 07, 2011 6:38 PM</PRE><PRE>To: <A =
href=3D"mailto:dispatch@ietf.org">dispatch@ietf.org</A></PRE><PRE>Subject=
: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing</PRE><PRE>&nbsp;</PRE><PRE>Paul: =
Thank you for your input.&nbsp; More =
inline.</PRE><PRE>&nbsp;</PRE><PRE>On 03/07/2011 05:14 PM, Paul Kyzivat =
wrote:</PRE>=0A=
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: =
5pt"><PRE>Vijay,</PRE><PRE>IIUC, the algorithm you have proposed is =
similar to the one Paul Jones</PRE><PRE>has proposed - with the main =
difference being the numeric range of the</PRE><PRE>weight. Do I have =
that right?</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE>&nbsp;</PRE><PRE>I believe that Paul =
J.'s algorithm is more suited towards overload</PRE><PRE>control, not =
load balancing (and I will await Paul J.'s correction to =
my</PRE><PRE>assertion).</PRE><PRE>&nbsp;</PRE><PRE>The intent in =
draft-bessis-dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing is to</PRE><PRE>*always* =
report the current load to give the upstream SIP proxy =
an</PRE><PRE>indication of the health of the SIP server in the =
cluster.&nbsp; If one waits</PRE><PRE>until overload is imminent, then =
it may be too late since a sudden and</PRE><PRE>unanticipated burst of =
messages will put the SIP server in overload</PRE><PRE>rather =
quickly.</PRE><PRE>&nbsp;</PRE>=0A=
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt"><PRE>It isn't =
clear to me from your draft if you are specifying =
the</PRE><PRE>algorithm by which the relative weights are used to =
determine the</PRE><PRE>probability of a request going to one server or =
another.</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE>&nbsp;</PRE><PRE>Yes, same way as =
RFC2782 does it.</PRE><PRE>&nbsp;</PRE>=0A=
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt"><PRE>ISTM that =
it *does* matter. And it especially matters if there is =
an</PRE><PRE>implication that the upstream node's algorithm may depend =
on some</PRE><PRE>assumption or knowledge about the downstream =
nodes.</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE>&nbsp;</PRE><PRE>No knowledge, just a =
reported number that the upstream SIP proxy can</PRE><PRE>treat as a =
RFC2782-like weight indicator.&nbsp; Today, =
rfc3263-resolution</PRE><PRE>starts off with the SRV indicators in =
RFC2782, without any regard to</PRE><PRE>additional knowledge or =
assumption about downstream =
nodes.</PRE><PRE>dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing is trying to use the =
same model, except</PRE><PRE>render the weight to be sensitive to the =
current traffic in the cluster</PRE><PRE>in =
real-time.</PRE><PRE>&nbsp;</PRE>=0A=
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt"><PRE>And of =
course this method of reporting weights isn't sufficient =
to</PRE><PRE>drive a balancing algorithm that is sensitive to some =
requests</PRE><PRE>requiring more or different resources than others. =
(That seems to be a</PRE><PRE>real problem, though I don't know if we =
have a real solution =
for</PRE><PRE>it.)</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE>&nbsp;</PRE><PRE>Yes, that is =
a real problem, as is the problem of a SIP server in a</PRE><PRE>cluster =
that has a low weight and is thus not contacted with =
enough</PRE><PRE>frequency to merit more participation to the =
goodput.</PRE><PRE>&nbsp;</PRE><PRE>It is well known in SIP that some =
methods are more onerous to process</PRE><PRE>than others --- from a =
proxying point of view, processing an INVITE with</PRE><PRE>forking and =
response aggregation is far more detrimental to resource</PRE><PRE>usage =
than is processing a BYE.&nbsp; Some existing literature =
techniques</PRE><PRE>thus add a coefficient to the weight of sending an =
INVITE versus a BYE.</PRE><PRE>At this time, the process outlined in =
dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing</PRE><PRE>treats all requests the same, =
but we can definitely look at ways to</PRE><PRE>change this =
behaviour.</PRE><PRE>&nbsp;</PRE><PRE>Thanks,</PRE><PRE>&nbsp;</PRE><PRE>=
- vijay</PRE><PRE>--</PRE><PRE>Vijay K. Gurbani, Bell Laboratories, =
Alcatel-Lucent</PRE><PRE>1960 Lucent Lane, Rm. 9C-533, Naperville, =
Illinois 60566 (USA)</PRE><PRE>Email: <A =
href=3D"mailto:vkg@%7bbell-labs.com,acm.org%7d">vkg@{bell-labs.com,acm.or=
g}</A> / <A =
href=3D"mailto:vijay.gurbani@alcatel-lucent.com">vijay.gurbani@alcatel-lu=
cent.com</A></PRE><PRE>Web:&nbsp;&nbsp; <A =
href=3D"http://ect.bell-labs.com/who/vkg/">http://ect.bell-labs.com/who/v=
kg/</A></PRE><PRE>_______________________________________________</PRE><P=
RE>dispatch mailing list</PRE><PRE><A =
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href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch">https://www.ietf.=
org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch</A></PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE>&nbsp;</PRE><PRE=
>_______________________________________________</PRE><PRE>dispatch =
mailing list</PRE><PRE><A =
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href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch">https://www.ietf.=
org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch</A></PRE>=0A=
<P class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;</P>=0A=
<DIV>=0A=
<P class=3DMsoNormal>-- <BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 24pt">-- =
<BR>Cordially, <BR>Thierry Bessis</SPAN></B> </P>=0A=
<P class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; <SPAN>IMS Solution: Architecture &amp; =
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<P class=3DMsoNormal>-- <BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 24pt">-- =
<BR>Cordially, <BR>Thierry Bessis</SPAN></B> </P>=0A=
<P class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; <SPAN>IMS Solution: Architecture &amp; =
Product Management - ALTA Member<BR>&nbsp; Organization: ALU &gt; =
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<DIV class=3Dmoz-signature>-- <BR><BIG style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: =
bold"><BIG><BIG><SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: French Script MT">-- =
<BR>Cordially, <BR></SPAN></BIG></BIG></BIG><BIG style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: =
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<DIV></DIV>=0A=
<DIV></DIV>&nbsp; <SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial">IMS Solution: =
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------_=_NextPart_001_01CBDF91.4D819962--

From christer.holmberg@ericsson.com  Thu Mar 10 22:55:52 2011
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From: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
To: Andrew Allen <aallen@rim.com>, Henry Sinnreich <henry.sinnreich@gmail.com>, "tanakai@nttdocomo.co.jp" <tanakai@nttdocomo.co.jp>, "dispatch@ietf.org" <dispatch@ietf.org>
Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 07:57:05 +0100
Thread-Topic: [dispatch] Revisionofdraft-allen-dispatch-imei-urn-as-instanceid
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Subject: Re: [dispatch] Revisionofdraft-allen-dispatch-imei-urn-as-instanceid
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Hi,

I agree with Andrew.

People have invested, and are investing, lots of resources into SIP based s=
ystems. They are not suddently going to throw everything away just because =
some people in IETF suddently thinks there are more "fun and sexy" stuff to=
 work on than SIP...

Also, regarding the agreement between IETF and 3GPP, if people have issues =
with that agreement I don't think that people who are working based on that=
 agreement should have to suffer.

Instead, people having issues with the agreement should bring those issues =
to a more appropriate instance.

Regards,

Christer


> -----Original Message-----
> From: dispatch-bounces@ietf.org=20
> [mailto:dispatch-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Allen
> Sent: 11. maaliskuuta 2011 0:04
> To: Henry Sinnreich; tanakai@nttdocomo.co.jp; dispatch@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [dispatch]=20
> Revisionofdraft-allen-dispatch-imei-urn-as-instanceid
>=20
> Hi Henry,
>=20
> I think then that it's a fair summary of your email to say=20
> that your objections are of a political and philosophical=20
> nature related to your view of what constitutes the internet=20
> and whether the IETF should be involved in enhancing IETF=20
> protocols for stakeholders that utilize those IETF protocols=20
> for deployments that some in the community might not consider=20
> "the Internet" or "the pure Internet" or the "open e2e=20
> Internet" rather than technical issues with the contents of=20
> the drafts.
>=20
> While I don't want to start a general debate on what is "the Internet"
> here I will state that in my view it's very difficult to=20
> exclude any particular stakeholders and their deployments of=20
> IETF protocols from being part of the Internet when those=20
> stakeholders are in many cases the very same established=20
> telecommunications companies or ISPs that the vast majority=20
> of the population in most countries use to obtain access to=20
> the Internet.=20
>=20
> My understanding also is that IETF nearly a decade ago agreed=20
> to cooperate with 3GPP (and other standards bodies) in=20
> developing and enhancing internet protocols and that IETF=20
> specifically requested (more like insisted) that any=20
> extensions or enhancements to IETF protocols required by 3GPP=20
> be done within IETF according to the procedures defined by=20
> IETF for enhancing IETF protocols and for registering namespaces etc.
> These drafts simply comply with that agreed way of working=20
> between IETF and 3GPP. To my knowledge this working agreement=20
> is still in effect. I don't think it is the role of the=20
> dispatch WG to determine which applications or deployments of=20
> SIP to support or cooperate with counter to agreements=20
> previously made at IESG level.
>=20
> Refusing cooperation based on what is considered not to be=20
> part of the "open e2e Internet" is only likely to set up two=20
> (or more) competing versions of the Internet resulting in the=20
> 21st century equivalent of the standard rail gauge vs broad=20
> rail gauge communications interoperability issue from the=20
> 19th century - effectively killing the goal of an open e2e=20
> internet! As Dale indicated what is considered a walled=20
> garden today may not be walled in the future (if I remember=20
> some very significant walls came tumbling down during just=20
> the last decade of the 20th century alone).
>=20
> Different business models will be resolved through the market=20
> not by creating competing incompatible technical solutions.=20
>=20
> In terms of the time used on discussion within dispatch I=20
> don't think there is a need for much more discussion in=20
> dispatch. These drafts could go ahead as AD sponsored without=20
> further WG involvement. As I understand it the IMEI URN=20
> definition draft did not as part of the URN registration=20
> process need to even be discussed in dispatch at all=20
> (although Dale Worley's review was invaluable in improving=20
> the draft technically) as the NIDs list was the fora for this=20
> discussion and where previous versions of that draft were discussed.
>=20
> It should be noted all we are talking about with regard to=20
> these drafts is the registration of a URN namespace and=20
> definition of its usage as an Instance ID as required by RFC=20
> 5626. If we can't agree that then what future extensions can we agree?
>=20
> Andrew
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Henry Sinnreich [mailto:henry.sinnreich@gmail.com]
> Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2011 11:03 AM
> To: Andrew Allen; tanakai@nttdocomo.co.jp; dispatch@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [dispatch]
> Revisionofdraft-allen-dispatch-imei-urn-as-instanceid
>=20
> Hi Andrew,
>=20
> I have generic objections to see the publication of yet=20
> another informational RFC about practices in consortiums of=20
> closed networks in the IETF, for the following reasons:
>=20
> * Using the RFC process as a publishing venue for=20
> organizations that don't explicitly do that in support of the=20
> open e2e Internet.
>=20
> * The resources of the IETF are not unlimited, meeting time=20
> and email time to discuss is scarce and the IETF registries=20
> are just not scalable enough to support registrations for all=20
> the extensions that benefit countless external organizations=20
> and companies that deploy Internet technology.
> New business plans and the required extensions pop up in an=20
> endless fashion.
> Big organizations such as you mention have their own=20
> resources to publish their internal technical documents and=20
> white papers if they desire to do so.
>=20
> Members of outside organizations are certainly doing=20
> everybody a good service by informing via email of new=20
> standards/extensions in other organization, such as you have=20
> done below, but such information need not overload the=20
> Internet RFC process nor overload the Internet registries.
>=20
> * Hard for SIP developers and right out impossible for=20
> application developers.
> Though SIP works fine indeed across the world; SIPit and the=20
> SIP Forum take care of unavoidable problems still encountered=20
> by operators, arguably increasing SIP complexity for=20
> non-Internet purposes is not a good idea, even if new SIP=20
> extensions are labeled as just "informational". It makes it=20
> even more difficult for new developers entering the field to=20
> ever understand, let alone write code for some or all that=20
> has been published already about SIP for example. Checking=20
> right now there are 197 RFCs matching SIP and 78 I-Ds found=20
> by the RFC search engine.
>=20
> It is time to leave SIP alone and move on to other critical=20
> areas for the Internet, such as for example the future of=20
> applications that will be discussed in the next IETF=20
> technical plenary on Monday, March 28.
>=20
> With this in mind, I would rather not go into discussing your=20
> I-D in detail, though at first glance it seems technically=20
> correct and if it were discussed on the list, may indeed=20
> technically qualify as an informational RFC - just what I am=20
> arguing against.
>=20
> These are all personal opinions. The chairs and ADs may or=20
> may not discuss or agree/disagree with. Your I-D is just a=20
> good opportunity to raise these issues.=20
>=20
> Note that I am not suggesting any voting on your I-D, if it=20
> will be discussed, since for various reasons, the majority of=20
> folks attending the DISPATCH WG are from various outside=20
> organizations with business plans that may or may not fully=20
> embrace the open e2e Internet; a perfect legitimate choice=20
> for them, but not  in the IETF (I just can't remember when=20
> ever there was a vote against any new I-D for SIP, since no=20
> cost was perceived by those voting).
>=20
> Thanks,
> Henry=20
>=20
>=20
> On 3/9/11 5:45 PM, "Andrew Allen" <aallen@rim.com> wrote:
>=20
> >=20
> > Henry
> >=20
> > Would you care to elaborate and explain your specific concerns?  How
> is what
> > is defined in these drafts potentially incompatible with=20
> the open, e2e=20
> > architectural and in any other way technical conflict with the
> Internet?
> >=20
> > The two drafts do the following things:
> >=20
> > One draft simply defines and registers with IANA a URN namespace
> according to
> > the procedures defined for doing that.
> >=20
> > The other draft simply defines how this URN can be used as=20
> an instance
> ID as
> > required by RFC 5626.
> >=20
> > SIP and the mechanisms in RFC 5626 are already being used=20
> in networks
> defined
> > by 3GPP and are being deployed by members of the GSMA. 3GPP and GSMA
> have
> > already defined this behavior using their existing device=20
> Identifiers
> for
> > instance ID generation in their specifications. These=20
> drafts complete
> the
> > process doing things the right way by reserving the namespace and
> defining the
> > usage of it using the IETF defined mechanisms for doing that.
> >=20
> > Andrew
> >=20
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Henry Sinnreich [mailto:henry.sinnreich@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 03:10 PM
> > To: Itsuma TANAKA <tanakai@nttdocomo.co.jp>; dispatch@ietf.org=20
> > <dispatch@ietf.org>
> > Subject: Re: [dispatch]
> Revisionofdraft-allen-dispatch-imei-urn-as-instanceid
> >=20
> > Such work in the IETF would require IMO an explanation about its=20
> > compatibility with the open, e2e architectural and other technical=20
> > principles of the Internet. It actually seems to be the opposite.
> >=20
> > For this reason, such work may be better accomplished in other=20
> > organizations, so as to avoid architectural principle and other
> technical
> > conflicts. Simplicity and scalability comes to mind among other,
> though this
> > is better discussed elsewhere.
> >=20
> > Thanks,
> >=20
> > Henry Sinnreich
> >=20
> >=20
> > On 3/9/11 8:54 AM, "Itsuma TANAKA" <tanakai@nttdocomo.co.jp> wrote:
> >=20
> >> Dear All,
> >>=20
> >> I work for NTT DOCOMO, Inc in Japan. and attend various=20
> 3GPP meetings
> (SA2,
> >> CT1, CT4, and CT3) and GSM Association (GSMA) Interworking, Roaming
> Expert
> >> Group (IREG), Roaming in LTE (RILTE) and Packet subgroup=20
> meetings.  I
> serve
> >> as a Vice Chair of GSMA IREG RILTE and Packet subgroups.
> >>=20
> >> I would like to express my support of=20
> draft-montemurro-gsma-imei-urn
> and the
> >> associated draft-allen-dispatch-imei-urn-as-instanceid.
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> A
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Thierry,

 

The SCE is not a fixed value that remains constant or decrements by 1,
necessarily, with each new session.  It is a value that is calculated
constantly (or at least with some frequency) and provided to peer devices.
This value can be compared with SCE values from other peer devices to
compare the relative capacities of peer devices at any given moment.

 

The specific ways through which the SCE value is computed may vary by
vendor, though the approach we have used is one where we calculate an
estimate of the number of sessions a device can handle given the current
number of sessions given current memory utilization.  We then do the same
for CPU and other system resources.  We then take the minimum value of each
and report that as the SCE value.  As a matter of course, our devices are
constantly measuring these resources, so computing the SCE if trivial.

 

Paul

 

From: Thierry Bessis [mailto:Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com] 
Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2011 1:17 PM
To: Paul E. Jones
Cc: dispatch@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing

 

Paul, 

I agree they are many similitudes ! :-) 
But the question I think is: Can we make the two approaches compatible ? 

For instance, with our approach, it is fundamental that the weight
represents a "Relative" occupation, and not an absolute capacity.
The first reason is that we found that loading continuously all the servers
at the same utilization rate (same percentage) is the optimal way of loading
a cluster. (We can discuss that if not agreed). The second reason is that a
relative occupation is very easy to derive from information already
available: any system knows where it is in terms of CPU or Memory usage. In
contrast, deriving a left capacity in terms of remaining sessions can be
difficult: Host can be used by different applications and perform different
duties, which can change over the day, all of them impacting their true
capacity at a certain moment. Beside, as already discussed, different
sessions require different resources, so there is a whole complication of
dealing with a multitude of call profiles, that (again) are not even
constant over the day.

Also, we do not want to derive some shedding decision from the weight. We
want to rely on the OLC mechanism for that. As I mentioned before, deriving
shedding from the weight is very sensitive to the way weights are
calculated: we would need to specify exactly how the weight is calculated:
this is impractical ! Also everybody would need to agree about specific
threshold: What is the weight value threshold for shedding ?: Again this is
more difficult, and different servers will certainly want to use different
thresholds.   Also there is a contradiction: whether you are using relative
or absolute weights, your weight should  zero (100% busy, or 0 sessions
available) at the moment you are getting overloaded. So if you are 100% busy
(or in average no room for new sessions), how to you tell how many sessions
need to be shed ? You could be 100% busy with an offered load of 300%
nominal (then you need to shed 66%), or be 100% busy at just the nominal
load, (then you don't need to shed). This again shows this threshold issue I
mentioned. In our implementation, we used to use to a common "utilization"
information to do both optimal distribution and shedding, but we moved away
from that because of those reasons: we found that each node indicating its
requested rejection rate is much more robust and requires very little
agreements. 

Cordially, 

Thierry


On 09-Mar-2011 22:15, Paul E. Jones wrote: 

Thierry,

 

I think there is more in common than not.

 

You compute a "weight" and we compute an "sce" that is, in my opinion, more
or less the same: it's a value that indicates how much traffic can be
directed toward the box relative to other peer devices.

 

You want to do "load balancing" whereas we want to do "overload prevention".
Preventing overload means distributing load across boxes.  We are not
proposing to perfectly balance the load, but the load is distributed
nonetheless.

 

Honestly, I just don't see a lot of difference, other than terminology.  The
algorithm employed by the device directing traffic, but that algorithm is
independent of the advertisement of a capacity/weight value.

 

Paul

 

From: Thierry Bessis [mailto:Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 12:26 PM
To: Paul E. Jones
Cc: dispatch@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing

 

Thanks Paul for you detailed answer ! 

I've looked at your SCE proposal and your comments and my impression is that
our two proposals are actually very different both from their intent
perspective, and from their realization perspective. 

The intent of our load balancing proposal is clearly continuous load
balancing. Our suggested weight does try to figure any kind of remaining
capacity in terms of sessions: it only indicates the instant (slightly
smoothed) available resource, which integrates CPU, Memory and any other
constrained resource. For the kind of usage we have in mind, (and for
example), it does not matter if we have lot of sessions "left" when we have
very little CPU to register those sessions: it is optimal to temporary
offload this busy node rather than risking a CPU induced rejection or
failure. When the node will have more CPU available, it will take more
sessions, and may be even more than others, because it may have now more
memory than others. If this node never have more CPU available, then its
"session" capacity is actually unusable and the system correctly reflects
that. 

Also, the SOC was not intended for "dynamic" load distribution: it only
provides the feedback when some shedding is expected (So already one or
multiple nodes are about to be overloaded). Also, integrating the
information from both SOC and SCE to take the distribution decision seems
rather complicated to me. In our proposal, the distribution algorithm is
simple, never changes, and is independent from SOC. We selected a node with
weights always the same way, and we apply the SOC rejection when applicable
to this node.

Cordially, 

Thierry

On 08-Mar-2011 14:47, Paul E. Jones wrote: 

Thierry,

 

Please see my comments below in green:

 

 

From: Thierry Bessis [mailto:Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2011 12:35 PM
To: Paul E. Jones
Cc: 'Vijay K. Gurbani'; dispatch@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing

 

Paul, 

Please let me address some of your comments. 
I don't know what the SCE is, so please pardon me if I misunderstand
something. 

On 07-Mar-2011 23:05, Paul E. Jones wrote: 

Vijay,
 
The Session Capacity Estimate (SCE) idea is actually quite similar to the
"adaptive load balancing" draft, from what I can see.  SCE was proposed as a
solution to the "overload" problem, the approach being one where we try to
avoid overload by selecting a device that reports a higher capacity value.
Thus, one could view it as "overload control through load balancing".  We
didn't explicitly call it load balancing, though, because we were not trying
to balance load (i.e., place the same load on all servers).  Rather, we just
wanted to direct traffic to devices that we knew had available capacity.

Agreed, the goal seems to be the same: avoiding or at least delaying
overload. 
And your other comment too: our proposal does try to balance the load on all
the servers. The rational is that it is very easy for each server to know
where it is in terms of resource usage (for instance: I'm 60 percent
resource loaded at this moment), and this is just the information you need
to balance the traffic. Now it seems (but it is not clear, see below)  that
the SCE "available capacity" is actually a real time feedback, so the
information would be very similar actually. (What's the difference ? )

 

PEJ: I think it is very similar.  SCE provides real-time feedback of the
available resource capacity of a peer device.  The intent is to convey a
single integer value that represents an estimate of the number of sessions
the peer device can handle.  Note, this is not "message per second" or
other, but the number of sessions.  The focus on SCE is on devices like
"call agents", "session border controllers", stateful SIP proxies, etc. 





 
In practice, the way SCE would be employed is the following:
* SIP proxy, B2BUA, etc. (selector) would receive SCE capacity from
   peer devices
 * The selector would direct traffic toward the peer devices in a
   round-robin fashion, taking into consideration the SCE value so
   as to prevent exhausting resources on any given peer device

I see a contradiction here: if it is round-robin, it does not take into
account the SCE value. 
Is that something more like a weighted round-robin algorithm ? 

 

PEJ: As I mention below, the algorithm used to select a peer device is not a
part of the SCE draft.  One can use any mechanism.  The SCE draft merely
advertises a session capacity estimate.  We've found round-robin to be a
simple approach that works, as it distributes load relatively uniformly, but
stops directing traffic toward devices that report an SCE value that is
below a specified threshold. Other input could be considered, but we
deliberately left the algorithm outside the scope of SCE.





 * Once the peer's SCE value dropped below a given "low-water mark",
   the peer device would be less favored and not given traffic until
   the SCE value increases above the low-water mark (OPTIONS "ping"
   messages may be used to determine the SCE value in the event that
   there is no other traffic)

Why would we wait for a lower mark before to influence the distribution ?
Also is that less favored, or given no traffic ? 

 

PEJ: With our use of SCE, we're not trying to "balance" the load, per se.
One certainly could do that, but in order to balance the load on peer
devices when they are out of balance, one must direct multiple new sessions
toward the same device.  That is not always desirable since new sessions
usually consume more resources temporarily than established sessions.  So,
we try to burden a peer device by throwing a number of new sessions toward
the peer by distributing them in a round-robin fashion.  Again, though, the
approach taken is outside the scope of the SCE draft.

 


The later has stability issues.  And why do we need ping Options when there
is no traffic ?
 If there is no traffic (or very little), should we care about optimal
distribution from this source ?

 

PEJ: The assumption is that a peer device might also have several peers.
So, while device A1 may not be directing traffic toward device B, perhaps
A2, A3, and A4 are.  We can use OPTIONS "ping" messages to get current SCE
information.







 * The current SOC overload control mechanism would be used to
   to prevent message overloading, as SCE only focuses on resource
   overloading (e.g., memory, CPU, disk space, DSPs)

I don't see this difference here (message overload versus resource overload
? ) . To me, SOC focuses on source shedding, while SCE seems to focus on
improved load distribution, just like our proposal.

 

PEJ: A peer device might be able to handle 18,000 new sessions, but perhaps
it can only handle them at a rate of 100 per second.  We would use SCE to
determine that a peer can handle new sessions, while we would use the
methods SOC is defining to prevent message overload so we do not send 200
INVITEs per second to the peer.  (Use of the SOC mechanism might prove to
work better than our current round-robin approach, but we've not tested it.)






 
Note that the "round-robin" approach may or may not be preferred and is not
required in our draft.  I've found this approach works pretty well, but one
may prefer to use a particular weighting that is more complex.  I don't
think local decisions in the box need to be subject to standardization: we
just need to standardize the signaling to enable such decisions.

I believe the signaling is not enough. The deep meaning of the feedback
parameter needs to be clarified too. 
For example, in our proposal, the feedback is simply the current utilization
rate of the node (very simple).

 

PEJ: That sounds similar to SCE.  An SCE-capable device advertises to its
peer how many new sessions it can handle given the number of sessions it is
currently handling. 

Also the expectation needs to be clarified because it has a very important
impact on the recommended behavior in case of overload. 
The solution that we propose constantly tries to balance load in the cluster
of servers. Therefore, in case the SOC shedding kicks in, there is NOT NEED
to repeat the message elsewhere in the cluster because it is balanced
already (So no other server has more capacity). This is a huge advantage for
the network stability as message repeat tends to spread the overload and
collapse the cluster. 





In any case, it certainly looks like we're thinking along the same lines.

Yes I agree. 





PEJ: If you haven't already, have a look at our draft:

 <http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jones-sip-overload-sce-00>
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jones-sip-overload-sce-00

 

It is now expired, but your draft suggests there is still life in this
approach.  We should look to harmonize them, perhaps.

 

Paul

 


Cordially, 

Thierry





 
Paul
 

-----Original Message-----
From: dispatch-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:dispatch-bounces@ietf.org] On
Behalf Of Vijay K. Gurbani
Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 6:38 PM
To: dispatch@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing
 
Paul: Thank you for your input.  More inline.
 
On 03/07/2011 05:14 PM, Paul Kyzivat wrote:

Vijay,
IIUC, the algorithm you have proposed is similar to the one Paul Jones
has proposed - with the main difference being the numeric range of the
weight. Do I have that right?

 
I believe that Paul J.'s algorithm is more suited towards overload
control, not load balancing (and I will await Paul J.'s correction to my
assertion).
 
The intent in draft-bessis-dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing is to
*always* report the current load to give the upstream SIP proxy an
indication of the health of the SIP server in the cluster.  If one waits
until overload is imminent, then it may be too late since a sudden and
unanticipated burst of messages will put the SIP server in overload
rather quickly.
 

It isn't clear to me from your draft if you are specifying the
algorithm by which the relative weights are used to determine the
probability of a request going to one server or another.

 
Yes, same way as RFC2782 does it.
 

ISTM that it *does* matter. And it especially matters if there is an
implication that the upstream node's algorithm may depend on some
assumption or knowledge about the downstream nodes.

 
No knowledge, just a reported number that the upstream SIP proxy can
treat as a RFC2782-like weight indicator.  Today, rfc3263-resolution
starts off with the SRV indicators in RFC2782, without any regard to
additional knowledge or assumption about downstream nodes.
dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing is trying to use the same model, except
render the weight to be sensitive to the current traffic in the cluster
in real-time.
 

And of course this method of reporting weights isn't sufficient to
drive a balancing algorithm that is sensitive to some requests
requiring more or different resources than others. (That seems to be a
real problem, though I don't know if we have a real solution for
it.)

 
Yes, that is a real problem, as is the problem of a SIP server in a
cluster that has a low weight and is thus not contacted with enough
frequency to merit more participation to the goodput.
 
It is well known in SIP that some methods are more onerous to process
than others --- from a proxying point of view, processing an INVITE with
forking and response aggregation is far more detrimental to resource
usage than is processing a BYE.  Some existing literature techniques
thus add a coefficient to the weight of sending an INVITE versus a BYE.
At this time, the process outlined in dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing
treats all requests the same, but we can definitely look at ways to
change this behaviour.
 
Thanks,
 
- vijay
--
Vijay K. Gurbani, Bell Laboratories, Alcatel-Lucent
1960 Lucent Lane, Rm. 9C-533, Naperville, Illinois 60566 (USA)
Email: vkg@{bell-labs.com,acm.org} <mailto:vkg@%7bbell-labs.com,acm.org%7d>
/ vijay.gurbani@alcatel-lucent.com
Web:   http://ect.bell-labs.com/who/vkg/
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-- 
-- 
Cordially, 
Thierry Bessis 

  IMS Solution: Architecture & Product Management - ALTA Member
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Upcoming planned Vacation: None 

 
 
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-- 
-- 
Cordially, 
Thierry Bessis 

  IMS Solution: Architecture & Product Management - ALTA Member
  Organization: ALU > Carrier group > Wireline BU >  IMS Sol Arch, SE, PdM
Alcatel-Lucent
  1960 Lucent Lane - Room 6L-517
  Naperville, IL  60563  U S
  Tel/Fax: +1 630 979 7989
  Corporate IM: tbessis    - Yahoo IM:     thierry_bessis

My WEB page:   http://ihgpweb.ih.lucent.com/~tbessis/
<http://ihgpweb.ih.lucent.com/%7Etbessis/> 
My Calendar:   www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=new_frs3175%40yahoo.fr
ALTA Hot Line: http://alta.all.alcatel-lucent.com/hotline

Conference information:
2801 2801 (US):+1 800 771 8734 - (F):+33 800 941 674 - Access Code: 9797989
others countries see: http://all.alcatel-lucent.com/audio

Upcoming planned Business Trip: 12 April - 14 April 2011
Upcoming planned Vacation: None 

 
 
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch

 

-- 
-- 
Cordially, 
Thierry Bessis 

  IMS Solution: Architecture & Product Management - ALTA Member
  Organization: ALU > Carrier group > Wireline BU >  IMS Sol Arch, SE, PdM
Alcatel-Lucent
  1960 Lucent Lane - Room 6L-517
  Naperville, IL  60563  U S
  Tel/Fax: +1 630 979 7989
  Corporate IM: tbessis    - Yahoo IM:     thierry_bessis

My WEB page:   http://ihgpweb.ih.lucent.com/~tbessis/
My Calendar:   www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=new_frs3175%40yahoo.fr
ALTA Hot Line: http://alta.all.alcatel-lucent.com/hotline

Conference information:
2801 2801 (US):+1 800 771 8734 - (F):+33 800 941 674 - Access Code: 9797989
others countries see: http://all.alcatel-lucent.com/audio

Upcoming planned Business Trip: 12 April - 14 April 2011
Upcoming planned Vacation: None 


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lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Thierry,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>The SCE is not a fixed value that remains constant or decrements by =
1, necessarily, with each new session.&nbsp; It is a value that is =
calculated constantly (or at least with some frequency) and provided to =
peer devices.&nbsp; This value can be compared with SCE values from =
other peer devices to compare the relative capacities of peer devices at =
any given moment.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>The specific ways through which the SCE value is computed may vary by =
vendor, though the approach we have used is one where we calculate an =
estimate of the number of sessions a device can handle given the current =
number of sessions given current memory utilization.&nbsp; We then do =
the same for CPU and other system resources.&nbsp; We then take the =
minimum value of each and report that as the SCE value.&nbsp; As a =
matter of course, our devices are constantly measuring these resources, =
so computing the SCE if trivial.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Paul<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowt=
ext'>From:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowt=
ext'> Thierry Bessis [mailto:Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com] =
<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, March 10, 2011 1:17 PM<br><b>To:</b> Paul E. =
Jones<br><b>Cc:</b> dispatch@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [dispatch] =
SIP load balancing<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Paul, =
<br><br>I agree they are many similitudes ! <span =
class=3Dmoz-smiley-s1>:-) </span><br>But the question I think is: Can we =
make the two approaches compatible ? <br><br>For instance, with our =
approach, it is fundamental that the weight represents a =
&quot;Relative&quot; occupation, and not an absolute capacity.<br>The =
first reason is that we found that loading continuously all the servers =
at the same utilization rate (same percentage) is the optimal way of =
loading a cluster. (We can discuss that if not agreed). The second =
reason is that a relative occupation is very easy to derive from =
information already available: any system knows where it is in terms of =
CPU or Memory usage. In contrast, deriving a left capacity in terms of =
remaining sessions can be difficult: Host can be used by different =
applications and perform different duties, which can change over the =
day, all of them impacting their true capacity at a certain moment. =
Beside, as already discussed, different sessions require different =
resources, so there is a whole complication of dealing with a multitude =
of call profiles, that (again) are not even constant over the =
day.<br><br>Also, we do not want to derive some shedding decision from =
the weight. We want to rely on the OLC mechanism for that. As I =
mentioned before, deriving shedding from the weight is very sensitive to =
the way weights are calculated: we would need to specify exactly how the =
weight is calculated: this is impractical ! Also everybody would need to =
agree about specific threshold: What is the weight value threshold for =
shedding ?: Again this is more difficult, and different servers will =
certainly want to use different thresholds. &nbsp; Also there is a =
contradiction: whether you are using relative or absolute weights, your =
weight should&nbsp; zero (100% busy, or 0 sessions available) at the =
moment you are getting overloaded. So if you are 100% busy (or in =
average no room for new sessions), how to you tell how many sessions =
need to be shed ? You could be 100% busy with an offered load of 300% =
nominal (then you need to shed 66%), or be 100% busy at just the nominal =
load, (then you don't need to shed). This again shows this threshold =
issue I mentioned. In our implementation, we used to use to a common =
&quot;utilization&quot; information to do both optimal distribution and =
shedding, but we moved away from that because of those reasons: we found =
that each node indicating its requested rejection rate is much more =
robust and requires very little agreements. <br><br>Cordially, =
<br><br>Thierry<br><br><br>On 09-Mar-2011 22:15, Paul E. Jones wrote: =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Thierry,</s=
pan><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;</spa=
n><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>I think =
there is more in common than not.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;</spa=
n><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>You =
compute a &#8220;weight&#8221; and we compute an &#8220;sce&#8221; that =
is, in my opinion, more or less the same: it&#8217;s a value that =
indicates how much traffic can be directed toward the box relative to =
other peer devices.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;</spa=
n><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>You want =
to do &#8220;load balancing&#8221; whereas we want to do &#8220;overload =
prevention&#8221;.&nbsp; Preventing overload means distributing load =
across boxes.&nbsp; We are not proposing to perfectly balance the load, =
but the load is distributed nonetheless.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;</spa=
n><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Honestly, =
I just don&#8217;t see a lot of difference, other than =
terminology.&nbsp; The algorithm employed by the device directing =
traffic, but that algorithm is independent of the advertisement of a =
capacity/weight value.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;</spa=
n><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Paul</span>=
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;</spa=
n><o:p></o:p></p><div style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid windowtext =
1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;border-color:-moz-use-text-color =
-moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color&#13;&#10;          =
blue'><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid windowtext =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in =
0in;border-color:-moz-use-text-color&#13;&#10;              =
-moz-use-text-color'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowt=
ext'>From:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowt=
ext'> Thierry Bessis [<a =
href=3D"mailto:Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com">mailto:Thierry.Bessis@a=
lcatel-lucent.com</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 09, 2011 12:26 =
PM<br><b>To:</b> Paul E. Jones<br><b>Cc:</b> <a =
href=3D"mailto:dispatch@ietf.org">dispatch@ietf.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b=
> Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Thanks Paul =
for you detailed answer ! <br><br>I've looked at your SCE proposal and =
your comments and my impression is that our two proposals are actually =
very different both from their intent perspective, and from their =
realization perspective. <br><br>The intent of our load balancing =
proposal is clearly continuous load balancing. Our suggested weight does =
try to figure any kind of remaining capacity in terms of sessions: it =
only indicates the instant (slightly smoothed) available resource, which =
integrates CPU, Memory and any other constrained resource. For the kind =
of usage we have in mind, (and for example), it does not matter if we =
have lot of sessions &quot;left&quot; when we have very little CPU to =
register those sessions: it is optimal to temporary offload this busy =
node rather than risking a CPU induced rejection or failure. When the =
node will have more CPU available, it will take more sessions, and may =
be even more than others, because it may have now more memory than =
others. If this node never have more CPU available, then its =
&quot;session&quot; capacity is actually unusable and the system =
correctly reflects that. <br><br>Also, the SOC was not intended for =
&quot;dynamic&quot; load distribution: it only provides the feedback =
when some shedding is expected (So already one or multiple nodes are =
about to be overloaded). Also, integrating the information from both SOC =
and SCE to take the distribution decision seems rather complicated to =
me. In our proposal, the distribution algorithm is simple, never =
changes, and is independent from SOC. We selected a node with weights =
always the same way, and we apply the SOC rejection when applicable to =
this node.<br><br>Cordially, <br><br>Thierry<br><br>On 08-Mar-2011 =
14:47, Paul E. Jones wrote: <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Thierry,</s=
pan><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;</spa=
n><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Please see =
my comments below in green:</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;</spa=
n><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;</spa=
n><o:p></o:p></p><div style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid windowtext =
1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;border-color:-moz-use-text-color =
-moz-use-text-color&#13;&#10;            -moz-use-text-color =
blue'><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid windowtext =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;border-color:-moz-use-text-color'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowt=
ext'>From:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowt=
ext'> Thierry Bessis [<a =
href=3D"mailto:Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com">mailto:Thierry.Bessis@a=
lcatel-lucent.com</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, March 08, 2011 12:35 =
PM<br><b>To:</b> Paul E. Jones<br><b>Cc:</b> 'Vijay K. Gurbani'; <a =
href=3D"mailto:dispatch@ietf.org">dispatch@ietf.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b=
> Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Paul, =
<br><br>Please let me address some of your comments. <br>I don't know =
what the SCE is, so please pardon me if I misunderstand something. =
<br><br>On 07-Mar-2011 23:05, Paul E. Jones wrote: =
<o:p></o:p></p><pre>Vijay,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre><p=
re>The Session Capacity Estimate (SCE) idea is actually quite similar to =
the<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>&quot;adaptive load balancing&quot; draft, from =
what I can see.&nbsp; SCE was proposed as =
a<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>solution to the &quot;overload&quot; problem, the =
approach being one where we try to<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>avoid overload =
by selecting a device that reports a higher capacity =
value.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Thus, one could view it as &quot;overload =
control through load balancing&quot;.&nbsp; =
We<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>didn't explicitly call it load balancing, =
though, because we were not trying<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>to balance load =
(i.e., place the same load on all servers). &nbsp;Rather, we =
just<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>wanted to direct traffic to devices that we =
knew had available capacity.<o:p></o:p></pre><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Agreed, the goal seems to be the same: avoiding or at =
least delaying overload. <br>And your other comment too: our proposal =
does try to balance the load on all the servers. The rational is that it =
is very easy for each server to know where it is in terms of resource =
usage (for instance: I'm 60 percent resource loaded at this moment), and =
this is just the information you need to balance the traffic. Now it =
seems (but it is not clear, see below)&nbsp; that the SCE =
&quot;available capacity&quot; is actually a real time feedback, so the =
information would be very similar actually. (What's the difference ? =
)<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#00B05=
0'>PEJ: I think it is very similar.&nbsp; SCE provides real-time =
feedback of the available resource capacity of a peer device.&nbsp; The =
intent is to convey a single integer value that represents an estimate =
of the number of sessions the peer device can handle.&nbsp; Note, this =
is not &#8220;message per second&#8221; or other, but the number of =
sessions.&nbsp; The focus on SCE is on devices like &#8220;call =
agents&#8221;, &#8220;session border controllers&#8221;, stateful SIP =
proxies, etc.</span> =
<br><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>In =
practice, the way SCE would be employed is the =
following:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>* SIP proxy, B2BUA, etc. (selector) =
would receive SCE capacity from<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; peer =
devices<o:p></o:p></pre><pre> * The selector would direct traffic toward =
the peer devices in a<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; round-robin =
fashion, taking into consideration the SCE value =
so<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; as to prevent exhausting resources =
on any given peer device<o:p></o:p></pre><p class=3DMsoNormal>I see a =
contradiction here: if it is round-robin, it does not take into account =
the SCE value. <br>Is that something more like a weighted round-robin =
algorithm ? <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#00B05=
0'>PEJ: As I mention below, the algorithm used to select a peer device =
is not a part of the SCE draft.&nbsp; One can use any mechanism.&nbsp; =
The SCE draft merely advertises a session capacity estimate.&nbsp; =
We&#8217;ve found round-robin to be a simple approach that works, as it =
distributes load relatively uniformly, but stops directing traffic =
toward devices that report an SCE value that is below a specified =
threshold. Other input could be considered, but we deliberately left the =
algorithm outside the scope of =
SCE.</span><br><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><pre> * Once the peer's SCE =
value dropped below a given &quot;low-water =
mark&quot;,<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; the peer device would be =
less favored and not given traffic =
until<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; the SCE value increases above =
the low-water mark (OPTIONS =
&quot;ping&quot;<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; messages may be used =
to determine the SCE value in the event =
that<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; there is no other =
traffic)<o:p></o:p></pre><p class=3DMsoNormal>Why would we wait for a =
lower mark before to influence the distribution ? Also is that less =
favored, or given no traffic ? <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#00B05=
0'>PEJ: With our use of SCE, we&#8217;re not trying to =
&#8220;balance&#8221; the load, per se.&nbsp; One certainly could do =
that, but in order to balance the load on peer devices when they are out =
of balance, one must direct multiple new sessions toward the same =
device.&nbsp; That is not always desirable since new sessions usually =
consume more resources temporarily than established sessions.&nbsp; So, =
we try to burden a peer device by throwing a number of new sessions =
toward the peer by distributing them in a round-robin fashion.&nbsp; =
Again, though, the approach taken is outside the scope of the SCE =
draft.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><br>The later has =
stability issues.&nbsp; And why do we need ping Options when there is no =
traffic ?<br>&nbsp;If there is no traffic (or very little), should we =
care about optimal distribution from this source ?<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#00B05=
0'>PEJ: The assumption is that a peer device might also have several =
peers.&nbsp; So, while device A1 may not be directing traffic toward =
device B, perhaps A2, A3, and A4 are.&nbsp; We can use OPTIONS =
&#8220;ping&#8221; messages to get current SCE =
information.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><br><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><pre>&nbsp;* The =
current SOC overload control mechanism would be used =
to<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; to prevent message overloading, as =
SCE only focuses on resource<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; =
overloading (e.g., memory, CPU, disk space, DSPs)<o:p></o:p></pre><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>I don't see this difference here (message overload =
versus resource overload ? ) . To me, SOC focuses on source shedding, =
while SCE seems to focus on improved load distribution, just like our =
proposal.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#00B05=
0'>PEJ: A peer device might be able to handle 18,000 new sessions, but =
perhaps it can only handle them at a rate of 100 per second.&nbsp; We =
would use SCE to determine that a peer can handle new sessions, while we =
would use the methods SOC is defining to prevent message overload so we =
do not send 200 INVITEs per second to the peer.&nbsp; (Use of the SOC =
mechanism might prove to work better than our current round-robin =
approach, but we&#8217;ve not tested it.)</span> =
<br><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Note =
that the &quot;round-robin&quot; approach may or may not be preferred =
and is not<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>required in our draft.&nbsp; I've found =
this approach works pretty well, but one<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>may prefer =
to use a particular weighting that is more complex.&nbsp; I =
don't<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>think local decisions in the box need to be =
subject to standardization: we<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>just need to =
standardize the signaling to enable such decisions.<o:p></o:p></pre><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>I believe the signaling is not enough. The deep =
meaning of the feedback parameter needs to be clarified too. <br>For =
example, in our proposal, the feedback is simply the current utilization =
rate of the node (very simple).<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#00B05=
0'>PEJ: That sounds similar to SCE.&nbsp; An SCE-capable device =
advertises to its peer how many new sessions it can handle given the =
number of sessions it is currently handling.</span> <br><br>Also the =
expectation needs to be clarified because it has a very important impact =
on the recommended behavior in case of overload. <br>The solution that =
we propose constantly tries to balance load in the cluster of servers. =
Therefore, in case the SOC shedding kicks in, there is NOT NEED to =
repeat the message elsewhere in the cluster because it is balanced =
already (So no other server has more capacity). This is a huge advantage =
for the network stability as message repeat tends to spread the overload =
and collapse the cluster. <br><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><pre>In any =
case, it certainly looks like we're thinking along the same =
lines.<o:p></o:p></pre><p class=3DMsoNormal>Yes I agree. =
<br><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#00B05=
0'>PEJ: If you haven&#8217;t already, have a look at our =
draft:</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#00B05=
0'><a =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jones-sip-overload-sce-00"><span=
 =
style=3D'color:#00B050'>http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jones-sip-overlo=
ad-sce-00</span></a></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#00B05=
0'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#00B05=
0'>It is now expired, but your draft suggests there is still life in =
this approach.&nbsp; We should look to harmonize them, =
perhaps.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#00B05=
0'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#00B05=
0'>Paul</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><br>Cordially, =
<br><br>Thierry<br><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre=
><pre>Paul<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>-----Original =
Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>From: <a =
href=3D"mailto:dispatch-bounces@ietf.org">dispatch-bounces@ietf.org</a> =
[<a =
href=3D"mailto:dispatch-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dispatch-bounces@ietf.or=
g</a>] On<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Behalf Of Vijay K. =
Gurbani<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 6:38 =
PM<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>To: <a =
href=3D"mailto:dispatch@ietf.org">dispatch@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><=
pre>Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load =
balancing<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Paul: Thank =
you for your input.&nbsp; More =
inline.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>On 03/07/2011 =
05:14 PM, Paul Kyzivat wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>Vijay,<o:p></o:p></pr=
e><pre>IIUC, the algorithm you have proposed is similar to the one Paul =
Jones<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>has proposed - with the main difference being =
the numeric range of the<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>weight. Do I have that =
right?<o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote><pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>I =
believe that Paul J.'s algorithm is more suited towards =
overload<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>control, not load balancing (and I will =
await Paul J.'s correction to =
my<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>assertion).<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p=
></pre><pre>The intent in draft-bessis-dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing =
is to<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>*always* report the current load to give the =
upstream SIP proxy an<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>indication of the health of =
the SIP server in the cluster.&nbsp; If one =
waits<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>until overload is imminent, then it may be =
too late since a sudden and<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>unanticipated burst of =
messages will put the SIP server in overload<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>rather =
quickly.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>It isn't clear to me =
from your draft if you are specifying the<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>algorithm =
by which the relative weights are used to determine =
the<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>probability of a request going to one server or =
another.<o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote><pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Ye=
s, same way as RFC2782 does =
it.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>ISTM that it *does* =
matter. And it especially matters if there is =
an<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>implication that the upstream node's algorithm =
may depend on some<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>assumption or knowledge about =
the downstream =
nodes.<o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote><pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>No =
knowledge, just a reported number that the upstream SIP proxy =
can<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>treat as a RFC2782-like weight indicator.&nbsp; =
Today, rfc3263-resolution<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>starts off with the SRV =
indicators in RFC2782, without any regard =
to<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>additional knowledge or assumption about =
downstream nodes.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing =
is trying to use the same model, except<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>render the =
weight to be sensitive to the current traffic in the =
cluster<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>in =
real-time.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><pre>And of course this =
method of reporting weights isn't sufficient =
to<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>drive a balancing algorithm that is sensitive to =
some requests<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>requiring more or different resources =
than others. (That seems to be a<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>real problem, =
though I don't know if we have a real solution =
for<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>it.)<o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote><pre>&nbsp;<o:=
p></o:p></pre><pre>Yes, that is a real problem, as is the problem of a =
SIP server in a<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>cluster that has a low weight and =
is thus not contacted with enough<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>frequency to =
merit more participation to the =
goodput.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>It is well =
known in SIP that some methods are more onerous to =
process<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>than others --- from a proxying point of =
view, processing an INVITE with<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>forking and =
response aggregation is far more detrimental to =
resource<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>usage than is processing a BYE.&nbsp; Some =
existing literature techniques<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>thus add a =
coefficient to the weight of sending an INVITE versus a =
BYE.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>At this time, the process outlined in =
dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>treats all =
requests the same, but we can definitely look at ways =
to<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>change this =
behaviour.<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Thanks,<o:p><=
/o:p></pre><pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>- =
vijay<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>--<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Vijay K. Gurbani, =
Bell Laboratories, Alcatel-Lucent<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>1960 Lucent Lane, =
Rm. 9C-533, Naperville, Illinois 60566 (USA)<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Email: =
<a =
href=3D"mailto:vkg@%7bbell-labs.com,acm.org%7d">vkg@{bell-labs.com,acm.or=
g}</a> / <a =
href=3D"mailto:vijay.gurbani@alcatel-lucent.com">vijay.gurbani@alcatel-lu=
cent.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Web:&nbsp;&nbsp; <a =
href=3D"http://ect.bell-labs.com/who/vkg/">http://ect.bell-labs.com/who/v=
kg/</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre>____________________________________________=
___<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>dispatch mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a =
href=3D"mailto:dispatch@ietf.org">dispatch@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><=
pre><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch">https://www.ietf.=
org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch</a><o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote><pre>&nbsp=
;<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>_______________________________________________<o:=
p></o:p></pre><pre>dispatch mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a =
href=3D"mailto:dispatch@ietf.org">dispatch@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><=
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href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch">https://www.ietf.=
org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch</a><o:p></o:p></pre><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>-- =
<br><b><span style=3D'font-size:24.0pt;font-family:"French Script MT =
;","serif"'>-- <br>Cordially, <br>Thierry Bessis</span></b> =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; <span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>IMS Solution: Architecture =
&amp; Product Management - ALTA Member<br>&nbsp; Organization: ALU &gt; =
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alt=3DAlcatel-Lucent><br>&nbsp; <span =
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<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>&nbsp;<o:p></=
o:p></pre><pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p>=
</pre><pre>dispatch mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a =
href=3D"mailto:dispatch@ietf.org">dispatch@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><=
pre><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch">https://www.ietf.=
org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch</a><o:p></o:p></pre><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>-- =
<br><b><span style=3D'font-size:24.0pt;font-family:"French Script MT =
;","serif"'>-- <br>Cordially, <br>Thierry Bessis</span></b> =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; <span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>IMS Solution: Architecture =
&amp; Product Management - ALTA Member<br>&nbsp; Organization: ALU &gt; =
Carrier group &gt; Wireline BU &gt;&nbsp;</span><b> </b>IMS Sol Arch, =
SE, PdM<br><img border=3D0 width=3D299 height=3D104 id=3D"_x0000_i1026" =
src=3D"cid:image001.jpg@01CBDF9C.A3125150" =
alt=3DAlcatel-Lucent><br>&nbsp; <span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>1960 Lucent Lane - Room =
6L-517<br>&nbsp; Naperville, IL&nbsp; 60563&nbsp; U S<br>&nbsp; Tel/Fax: =
+1 630 979 7989<br>&nbsp; Corporate IM: tbessis&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - =
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<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre><pre><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></pre><pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p>=
</pre><pre>dispatch mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a =
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<br><b><span style=3D'font-size:24.0pt;font-family:"French Script =
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&amp; Product Management - ALTA Member<br>&nbsp; Organization: ALU &gt; =
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src=3D"cid:image001.jpg@01CBDF9C.A3125150" =
alt=3DAlcatel-Lucent><br>&nbsp; <span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>1960 Lucent Lane - Room =
6L-517<br>&nbsp; Naperville, IL&nbsp; 60563&nbsp; U S<br>&nbsp; Tel/Fax: =
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From Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com  Fri Mar 11 08:04:36 2011
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Paul,
>
> For instance, with our approach, it is fundamental that the weight 
> represents a "Relative" occupation, and not an absolute capacity.
> <Partha> The question is how to perform the "relative" operation 
> without until understanding the capacity of the peer devices. Say Load 
> balancer has 3 devices: 2 devices with 1x capacity and 1 device with 
> 2x capacity. Here all devices will be able to provide the "relative" 
> value without understanding the capacity of the other device. </Partha>
>
> The first reason is that we found that loading continuously all the 
> servers at the same utilization rate (same percentage) is the optimal 
> way of loading a cluster. (We can discuss that if not agreed).
> <Partha> I agree that same utilization rate is the optimal way but the 
> question is how to achieve it.
Thierry>> we are on line on this one ! :-)
> Round robin algorithm works in case all devices have same capacity and 
> same amount of load per call.
Thierry >> Yes I agree it would work in this case. The reason we are not 
using it is that in the IMS network (where we are already using those 
principles), this is not the case: Devices do not have the same capacity 
because they are on different hardware, or (more often) because they are 
sharing resources with other devices that are doing different things at 
different moments. (which provide a huge resource saving !). The result 
is that it's impossible for any device to calculate its own capacity "in 
isolation": It would need to know exactly which other devices are 
sharing the same resources, their resource usage, and what they are 
doing at any time: an operational nightmare which would break all the 
software isolation rules ! :-) . In addition, we sometime shutdown some 
devices and re-enable them later, (or we grow more devices in the 
cluster): Round robin does not work at all in this case.

> In reality, there are multiple varying factor like call duration, 
> different vareity of platform within the cluster (say Generation-1 10 
> devices and Generation-2 5 devies), different resource usage for the 
> call, rate at which calls generation. </Partha>
Thierry>>  yes !
> The second reason is that a relative occupation is very easy to derive 
> from information already available: any system knows where it is in 
> terms of CPU or Memory usage.
> <Partha> Converting CPU or Memory to weight is not explained your 
> draft. It is the real algorithm which needs lot of discussion. Because 
> preparing the mapping between CPU & Memory to weight will be 
> mind-blogging activity </Partha>
Thierry>> We could be more explicit, but should we ? (see next 
paragraph). Memory and CPU are just the two most obvious examples or 
resources that you need to process sessions. For instance, some of our 
servers have a fixed amount of sessions registers (for instance 50 000). 
In this case, the weight also reflects that. The algorithm we use for 
weights is very simple: this is the smallest remaining (in percentage) 
of each resource that is (1) Required to process a call, (2) Scarce  
(not infinite). Let's consider the following system:
The server has 70% of its memory available for calls, an average of 30% 
CPU usage (average over the last 10s for instance), and 40% of its 
registers available (remember that those resources may be shared by 
other components or devices for any other usage: it does not matter).
Then the weight at this moment is MIN (70, 30, 40) = 30%. You then need 
to normalize this weight to match the weight range (an INT ? )

Now we are not saying that everybody should calculate their weight like 
that. What is important is that the weight reflects your current 
_relative_ capacity. In our case, this "algorithm" balances the load of 
our servers very well. Now if you use a server that has a fixed amount 
of resources and that is dimensioned to process let's say 50 000 
sessions, at a pace of 100 session/s, then you could probably derive a 
weight that would depend on both your count of sessions left, and your 
current rate of session/s.
>  In contrast, deriving a left capacity in terms of remaining sessions 
> can be difficult: Host can be used by different applications and 
> perform different duties, which can change over the day, all of them 
> impacting their true capacity at a certain moment. Beside, as already 
> discussed, different sessions require different resources, so there is 
> a whole complication of dealing with a multitude of call profiles, 
> that (again) are not even constant over the day.
>
> Also, we do not want to derive some shedding decision from the weight.
> <Partha>  In case you specify, IETF SoC does not allow and so we want 
> another value, I think that we are in same page.
Thierry>> we are on the same page. I thought you suggested to use the 
same value.
> If not, I could not understand your argument. As you mentioned, all 
> system will know CPU or memory usage and it is possible to come up the 
> static or refreshable value saying that load shed has to happen when 
> 85% of CPU utilization or 90% of memory utilization. The different 
> between our proposal is that there is no need of two value per 
> message instead 1 value in each message & 1 value is static or in 
> periodic manner </Partha>
Thierry>> We use a single value: see the example above.

--
-- 
Cordially,
Thierry Bessis
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Upcoming planned Business Trip: 12 April - 14 April 2011
Upcoming planned Vacation: None

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    Paul, <br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:A11921905DA1564D9BCF64A6430A62390293A694@XMB-BGL-411.cisco.com"
      type="cite">
      <div><br>
        For instance, with our approach, it is fundamental that the
        weight represents a "Relative" occupation, and not an absolute
        capacity. </div>
      <div>&lt;Partha&gt; The question is how to perform the "relative"
        operation without until understanding the capacity&nbsp;of the peer
        devices. Say Load balancer has&nbsp;3 devices: 2 devices with 1x
        capacity and 1 device with 2x capacity. Here all devices will be
        able to provide the "relative" value without understanding the
        capacity of the other device.&nbsp;&lt;/Partha&gt;</div>
      <div><br>
        The first reason is that we found that loading continuously all
        the servers at the same utilization rate (same percentage) is
        the optimal way of loading a cluster. (We can discuss that if
        not agreed). </div>
      <div>&lt;Partha&gt; I agree&nbsp;that same utilization rate is the
        optimal way but the question is how to achieve it.&nbsp; <br>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    Thierry&gt;&gt; we are on line on this one ! <span
      class="moz-smiley-s1"><span> :-) </span></span><br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:A11921905DA1564D9BCF64A6430A62390293A694@XMB-BGL-411.cisco.com"
      type="cite">
      <div>Round robin algorithm works in case all devices have same
        capacity and same amount of load per call.</div>
    </blockquote>
    Thierry &gt;&gt; Yes I agree it would work in this case. The reason
    we are not using it is that in the IMS network (where we are already
    using those principles), this is not the case: Devices do not have
    the same capacity because they are on different hardware, or (more
    often) because they are sharing resources with other devices that
    are doing different things at different moments. (which provide a
    huge resource saving !). The result is that it's impossible for any
    device to calculate its own capacity "in isolation": It would need
    to know exactly which other devices are sharing the same resources,
    their resource usage, and what they are doing at any time: an
    operational nightmare which would break all the software isolation
    rules ! <span class="moz-smiley-s1"><span> :-) </span></span>. In
    addition, we sometime shutdown some devices and re-enable them
    later, (or we grow more devices in the cluster): Round robin does
    not work at all in this case. <br>
    <br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:A11921905DA1564D9BCF64A6430A62390293A694@XMB-BGL-411.cisco.com"
      type="cite">
      <div> In reality, there are multiple varying factor like&nbsp;call
        duration, different vareity of platform within the cluster (say
        Generation-1 10 devices and Generation-2 5 devies), different
        resource usage for the call, rate at which calls generation.
        &lt;/Partha&gt;</div>
    </blockquote>
    Thierry&gt;&gt;&nbsp; yes ! <br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:A11921905DA1564D9BCF64A6430A62390293A694@XMB-BGL-411.cisco.com"
      type="cite">
      <div>&nbsp;</div>
      <div>The second reason is that a relative occupation is very easy
        to derive from information already available: any system knows
        where it is in terms of CPU or Memory usage.</div>
      <div>&nbsp;</div>
      <div>&lt;Partha&gt; Converting CPU or Memory to weight is not
        explained your draft. It is the real algorithm which needs lot
        of discussion. Because preparing the mapping between CPU &amp;
        Memory to weight will&nbsp;be mind-blogging activity&nbsp;&lt;/Partha&gt;</div>
    </blockquote>
    Thierry&gt;&gt; We could be more explicit, but should we ? (see next
    paragraph). Memory and CPU are just the two most obvious examples or
    resources that you need to process sessions. For instance, some of
    our servers have a fixed amount of sessions registers (for instance
    50 000). In this case, the weight also reflects that. The algorithm
    we use for weights is very simple: this is the smallest remaining
    (in percentage) of each resource that is (1) Required to process a
    call, (2) Scarce&nbsp; (not infinite). Let's consider the following
    system: <br>
    The server has 70% of its memory available for calls, an average of
    30% CPU usage (average over the last 10s for instance), and 40% of
    its registers available (remember that those resources may be shared
    by other components or devices for any other usage: it does not
    matter). <br>
    Then the weight at this moment is MIN (70, 30, 40) = 30%. You then
    need to normalize this weight to match the weight range (an INT ? )
    <br>
    <br>
    Now we are not saying that everybody should calculate their weight
    like that. What is important is that the weight reflects your
    current <u>relative</u> capacity. In our case, this "algorithm"
    balances the load of our servers very well. Now if you use a server
    that has a fixed amount of resources and that is dimensioned to
    process let's say 50 000 sessions, at a pace of 100 session/s, then
    you could probably derive a weight that would depend on both your
    count of sessions left, and your current rate of session/s. <br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:A11921905DA1564D9BCF64A6430A62390293A694@XMB-BGL-411.cisco.com"
      type="cite">
      <div>&nbsp;</div>
      <div>&nbsp;In contrast, deriving a left capacity in terms of remaining
        sessions can be difficult: Host can be used by different
        applications and perform different duties, which can change over
        the day, all of them impacting their true capacity at a certain
        moment. Beside, as already discussed, different sessions require
        different resources, so there is a whole complication of dealing
        with a multitude of call profiles, that (again) are not even
        constant over the day.<br>
        <br>
        Also, we do not want to derive some shedding decision from the
        weight.</div>
      <div>&nbsp;</div>
      <div>&lt;Partha&gt;&nbsp; In case you specify, IETF SoC does not allow
        and so we want another value, I think that we are in same page.</div>
    </blockquote>
    Thierry&gt;&gt; we are on the same page. I thought you suggested to
    use the same value. <br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:A11921905DA1564D9BCF64A6430A62390293A694@XMB-BGL-411.cisco.com"
      type="cite">
      <div> If not, I could not understand&nbsp;your argument.&nbsp;As you
        mentioned, all system will know CPU or memory usage and it is
        possible to come up the static or refreshable value saying that
        load shed has to happen when 85% of CPU utilization or&nbsp;90% of
        memory utilization. The different between our proposal&nbsp;is that
        there is no need&nbsp;of two&nbsp;value per message&nbsp;instead 1 value in
        each message &amp; 1&nbsp;value is static or in periodic
        manner&nbsp;&nbsp;&lt;/Partha&gt;</div>
    </blockquote>
    Thierry&gt;&gt; We use a single value: see the example above. <br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-signature">--<br>
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      <title>Thierry's signature</title>
      <meta content="Thierry Bessis" name="author">
      <big style="font-weight: bold;"><big><big><span
              style="font-family: French Script MT;">-- <br>
              Cordially, <br>
            </span></big></big></big><big style="font-weight: bold;"><big><big><span
              style="font-family: French Script MT;">Thierry Bessis</span></big></big></big>
      <div> </div>
      <div> </div>
      &nbsp;
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">IMS Solution: Architecture
        &amp; Product Management - ALTA Member</span><br
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      <span style="font-family: Arial;">&nbsp; Organization: ALU &gt; Carrier
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      <br>
      <big style="font-weight: bold;"><big><span style="font-family:
            French Script MT;">Upcoming planned Business Trip:
            12 April - 14 April 2011</span></big></big><br>
      <big style="font-weight: bold;"><big><span style="font-family:
            French Script MT;">Upcoming planned Vacation: None</span></big></big>
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Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing
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Paul,
>
> The specific ways through which the SCE value is computed may vary by 
> vendor, though the approach we have used is one where we calculate an 
> estimate of the number of sessions a device can handle given the 
> current number of sessions given current memory utilization.  We then 
> do the same for CPU and other system resources.  We then take the 
> minimum value of each and report that as the SCE value.  As a matter 
> of course, our devices are constantly measuring these resources, so 
> computing the SCE if trivial.
>
So this mode of operation is very similar to what we also propose. Is 
that number a ratio (percentage of sessions available over the total 
number), or an absolute number ? If this is a ratio, then SCE and our 
load balancing are compatible: the same information and transport 
mechanism could be used for both: A single IETF proposal could be done.

Cordially,

Thierry
>
> Paul
>
> *From:*Thierry Bessis [mailto:Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com]
> *Sent:* Thursday, March 10, 2011 1:17 PM
> *To:* Paul E. Jones
> *Cc:* dispatch@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing
>
> Paul,
>
> I agree they are many similitudes ! :-)
> But the question I think is: Can we make the two approaches compatible ?
>
> For instance, with our approach, it is fundamental that the weight 
> represents a "Relative" occupation, and not an absolute capacity.
> The first reason is that we found that loading continuously all the 
> servers at the same utilization rate (same percentage) is the optimal 
> way of loading a cluster. (We can discuss that if not agreed). The 
> second reason is that a relative occupation is very easy to derive 
> from information already available: any system knows where it is in 
> terms of CPU or Memory usage. In contrast, deriving a left capacity in 
> terms of remaining sessions can be difficult: Host can be used by 
> different applications and perform different duties, which can change 
> over the day, all of them impacting their true capacity at a certain 
> moment. Beside, as already discussed, different sessions require 
> different resources, so there is a whole complication of dealing with 
> a multitude of call profiles, that (again) are not even constant over 
> the day.
>
> Also, we do not want to derive some shedding decision from the weight. 
> We want to rely on the OLC mechanism for that. As I mentioned before, 
> deriving shedding from the weight is very sensitive to the way weights 
> are calculated: we would need to specify exactly how the weight is 
> calculated: this is impractical ! Also everybody would need to agree 
> about specific threshold: What is the weight value threshold for 
> shedding ?: Again this is more difficult, and different servers will 
> certainly want to use different thresholds.   Also there is a 
> contradiction: whether you are using relative or absolute weights, 
> your weight should  zero (100% busy, or 0 sessions available) at the 
> moment you are getting overloaded. So if you are 100% busy (or in 
> average no room for new sessions), how to you tell how many sessions 
> need to be shed ? You could be 100% busy with an offered load of 300% 
> nominal (then you need to shed 66%), or be 100% busy at just the 
> nominal load, (then you don't need to shed). This again shows this 
> threshold issue I mentioned. In our implementation, we used to use to 
> a common "utilization" information to do both optimal distribution and 
> shedding, but we moved away from that because of those reasons: we 
> found that each node indicating its requested rejection rate is much 
> more robust and requires very little agreements.
>
> Cordially,
>
> Thierry
>
>
> On 09-Mar-2011 22:15, Paul E. Jones wrote:
>
> Thierry,
>
> I think there is more in common than not.
>
> You compute a "weight" and we compute an "sce" that is, in my opinion, 
> more or less the same: it's a value that indicates how much traffic 
> can be directed toward the box relative to other peer devices.
>
> You want to do "load balancing" whereas we want to do "overload 
> prevention".  Preventing overload means distributing load across 
> boxes.  We are not proposing to perfectly balance the load, but the 
> load is distributed nonetheless.
>
> Honestly, I just don't see a lot of difference, other than 
> terminology.  The algorithm employed by the device directing traffic, 
> but that algorithm is independent of the advertisement of a 
> capacity/weight value.
>
> Paul
>
> *From:*Thierry Bessis [mailto:Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 09, 2011 12:26 PM
> *To:* Paul E. Jones
> *Cc:* dispatch@ietf.org <mailto:dispatch@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing
>
> Thanks Paul for you detailed answer !
>
> I've looked at your SCE proposal and your comments and my impression 
> is that our two proposals are actually very different both from their 
> intent perspective, and from their realization perspective.
>
> The intent of our load balancing proposal is clearly continuous load 
> balancing. Our suggested weight does try to figure any kind of 
> remaining capacity in terms of sessions: it only indicates the instant 
> (slightly smoothed) available resource, which integrates CPU, Memory 
> and any other constrained resource. For the kind of usage we have in 
> mind, (and for example), it does not matter if we have lot of sessions 
> "left" when we have very little CPU to register those sessions: it is 
> optimal to temporary offload this busy node rather than risking a CPU 
> induced rejection or failure. When the node will have more CPU 
> available, it will take more sessions, and may be even more than 
> others, because it may have now more memory than others. If this node 
> never have more CPU available, then its "session" capacity is actually 
> unusable and the system correctly reflects that.
>
> Also, the SOC was not intended for "dynamic" load distribution: it 
> only provides the feedback when some shedding is expected (So already 
> one or multiple nodes are about to be overloaded). Also, integrating 
> the information from both SOC and SCE to take the distribution 
> decision seems rather complicated to me. In our proposal, the 
> distribution algorithm is simple, never changes, and is independent 
> from SOC. We selected a node with weights always the same way, and we 
> apply the SOC rejection when applicable to this node.
>
> Cordially,
>
> Thierry
>
> On 08-Mar-2011 14:47, Paul E. Jones wrote:
>
> Thierry,
>
> Please see my comments below in green:
>
> *From:*Thierry Bessis [mailto:Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 08, 2011 12:35 PM
> *To:* Paul E. Jones
> *Cc:* 'Vijay K. Gurbani'; dispatch@ietf.org <mailto:dispatch@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing
>
> Paul,
>
> Please let me address some of your comments.
> I don't know what the SCE is, so please pardon me if I misunderstand 
> something.
>
> On 07-Mar-2011 23:05, Paul E. Jones wrote:
>
> Vijay,
>   
> The Session Capacity Estimate (SCE) idea is actually quite similar to the
> "adaptive load balancing" draft, from what I can see.  SCE was proposed as a
> solution to the "overload" problem, the approach being one where we try to
> avoid overload by selecting a device that reports a higher capacity value.
> Thus, one could view it as "overload control through load balancing".  We
> didn't explicitly call it load balancing, though, because we were not trying
> to balance load (i.e., place the same load on all servers).  Rather, we just
> wanted to direct traffic to devices that we knew had available capacity.
>
> Agreed, the goal seems to be the same: avoiding or at least delaying 
> overload.
> And your other comment too: our proposal does try to balance the load 
> on all the servers. The rational is that it is very easy for each 
> server to know where it is in terms of resource usage (for instance: 
> I'm 60 percent resource loaded at this moment), and this is just the 
> information you need to balance the traffic. Now it seems (but it is 
> not clear, see below)  that the SCE "available capacity" is actually a 
> real time feedback, so the information would be very similar actually. 
> (What's the difference ? )
>
> PEJ: I think it is very similar.  SCE provides real-time feedback of 
> the available resource capacity of a peer device.  The intent is to 
> convey a single integer value that represents an estimate of the 
> number of sessions the peer device can handle.  Note, this is not 
> "message per second" or other, but the number of sessions.  The focus 
> on SCE is on devices like "call agents", "session border controllers", 
> stateful SIP proxies, etc.
>
>
>
>   
> In practice, the way SCE would be employed is the following:
> * SIP proxy, B2BUA, etc. (selector) would receive SCE capacity from
>     peer devices
>   * The selector would direct traffic toward the peer devices in a
>     round-robin fashion, taking into consideration the SCE value so
>     as to prevent exhausting resources on any given peer device
>
> I see a contradiction here: if it is round-robin, it does not take 
> into account the SCE value.
> Is that something more like a weighted round-robin algorithm ?
>
> PEJ: As I mention below, the algorithm used to select a peer device is 
> not a part of the SCE draft.  One can use any mechanism.  The SCE 
> draft merely advertises a session capacity estimate.  We've found 
> round-robin to be a simple approach that works, as it distributes load 
> relatively uniformly, but stops directing traffic toward devices that 
> report an SCE value that is below a specified threshold. Other input 
> could be considered, but we deliberately left the algorithm outside 
> the scope of SCE.
>
>
>
>   * Once the peer's SCE value dropped below a given "low-water mark",
>     the peer device would be less favored and not given traffic until
>     the SCE value increases above the low-water mark (OPTIONS "ping"
>     messages may be used to determine the SCE value in the event that
>     there is no other traffic)
>
> Why would we wait for a lower mark before to influence the 
> distribution ? Also is that less favored, or given no traffic ?
>
> PEJ: With our use of SCE, we're not trying to "balance" the load, per 
> se.  One certainly could do that, but in order to balance the load on 
> peer devices when they are out of balance, one must direct multiple 
> new sessions toward the same device.  That is not always desirable 
> since new sessions usually consume more resources temporarily than 
> established sessions.  So, we try to burden a peer device by throwing 
> a number of new sessions toward the peer by distributing them in a 
> round-robin fashion.  Again, though, the approach taken is outside the 
> scope of the SCE draft.
>
>
> The later has stability issues.  And why do we need ping Options when 
> there is no traffic ?
>  If there is no traffic (or very little), should we care about optimal 
> distribution from this source ?
>
> PEJ: The assumption is that a peer device might also have several 
> peers.  So, while device A1 may not be directing traffic toward device 
> B, perhaps A2, A3, and A4 are.  We can use OPTIONS "ping" messages to 
> get current SCE information.
>
>
>
>
>
>   * The current SOC overload control mechanism would be used to
>     to prevent message overloading, as SCE only focuses on resource
>     overloading (e.g., memory, CPU, disk space, DSPs)
>
> I don't see this difference here (message overload versus resource 
> overload ? ) . To me, SOC focuses on source shedding, while SCE seems 
> to focus on improved load distribution, just like our proposal.
>
> PEJ: A peer device might be able to handle 18,000 new sessions, but 
> perhaps it can only handle them at a rate of 100 per second.  We would 
> use SCE to determine that a peer can handle new sessions, while we 
> would use the methods SOC is defining to prevent message overload so 
> we do not send 200 INVITEs per second to the peer.  (Use of the SOC 
> mechanism might prove to work better than our current round-robin 
> approach, but we've not tested it.)
>
>
>
>   
> Note that the "round-robin" approach may or may not be preferred and is not
> required in our draft.  I've found this approach works pretty well, but one
> may prefer to use a particular weighting that is more complex.  I don't
> think local decisions in the box need to be subject to standardization: we
> just need to standardize the signaling to enable such decisions.
>
> I believe the signaling is not enough. The deep meaning of the 
> feedback parameter needs to be clarified too.
> For example, in our proposal, the feedback is simply the current 
> utilization rate of the node (very simple).
>
> PEJ: That sounds similar to SCE.  An SCE-capable device advertises to 
> its peer how many new sessions it can handle given the number of 
> sessions it is currently handling.
>
> Also the expectation needs to be clarified because it has a very 
> important impact on the recommended behavior in case of overload.
> The solution that we propose constantly tries to balance load in the 
> cluster of servers. Therefore, in case the SOC shedding kicks in, 
> there is NOT NEED to repeat the message elsewhere in the cluster 
> because it is balanced already (So no other server has more capacity). 
> This is a huge advantage for the network stability as message repeat 
> tends to spread the overload and collapse the cluster.
>
>
>
> In any case, it certainly looks like we're thinking along the same lines.
>
> Yes I agree.
>
>
>
> PEJ: If you haven't already, have a look at our draft:
>
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jones-sip-overload-sce-00
>
> It is now expired, but your draft suggests there is still life in this 
> approach.  We should look to harmonize them, perhaps.
>
> Paul
>
>
> Cordially,
>
> Thierry
>
>
>
>   
> Paul
>   
>
>     -----Original Message-----
>
>     From:dispatch-bounces@ietf.org  <mailto:dispatch-bounces@ietf.org>  [mailto:dispatch-bounces@ietf.org] On
>
>     Behalf Of Vijay K. Gurbani
>
>     Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 6:38 PM
>
>     To:dispatch@ietf.org  <mailto:dispatch@ietf.org>
>
>     Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing
>
>       
>
>     Paul: Thank you for your input.  More inline.
>
>       
>
>     On 03/07/2011 05:14 PM, Paul Kyzivat wrote:
>
>         Vijay,
>
>         IIUC, the algorithm you have proposed is similar to the one Paul Jones
>
>         has proposed - with the main difference being the numeric range of the
>
>         weight. Do I have that right?
>
>       
>
>     I believe that Paul J.'s algorithm is more suited towards overload
>
>     control, not load balancing (and I will await Paul J.'s correction to my
>
>     assertion).
>
>       
>
>     The intent in draft-bessis-dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing is to
>
>     *always* report the current load to give the upstream SIP proxy an
>
>     indication of the health of the SIP server in the cluster.  If one waits
>
>     until overload is imminent, then it may be too late since a sudden and
>
>     unanticipated burst of messages will put the SIP server in overload
>
>     rather quickly.
>
>       
>
>         It isn't clear to me from your draft if you are specifying the
>
>         algorithm by which the relative weights are used to determine the
>
>         probability of a request going to one server or another.
>
>       
>
>     Yes, same way as RFC2782 does it.
>
>       
>
>         ISTM that it *does* matter. And it especially matters if there is an
>
>         implication that the upstream node's algorithm may depend on some
>
>         assumption or knowledge about the downstream nodes.
>
>       
>
>     No knowledge, just a reported number that the upstream SIP proxy can
>
>     treat as a RFC2782-like weight indicator.  Today, rfc3263-resolution
>
>     starts off with the SRV indicators in RFC2782, without any regard to
>
>     additional knowledge or assumption about downstream nodes.
>
>     dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing is trying to use the same model, except
>
>     render the weight to be sensitive to the current traffic in the cluster
>
>     in real-time.
>
>       
>
>         And of course this method of reporting weights isn't sufficient to
>
>         drive a balancing algorithm that is sensitive to some requests
>
>         requiring more or different resources than others. (That seems to be a
>
>         real problem, though I don't know if we have a real solution for
>
>         it.)
>
>       
>
>     Yes, that is a real problem, as is the problem of a SIP server in a
>
>     cluster that has a low weight and is thus not contacted with enough
>
>     frequency to merit more participation to the goodput.
>
>       
>
>     It is well known in SIP that some methods are more onerous to process
>
>     than others --- from a proxying point of view, processing an INVITE with
>
>     forking and response aggregation is far more detrimental to resource
>
>     usage than is processing a BYE.  Some existing literature techniques
>
>     thus add a coefficient to the weight of sending an INVITE versus a BYE.
>
>     At this time, the process outlined in dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing
>
>     treats all requests the same, but we can definitely look at ways to
>
>     change this behaviour.
>
>       
>
>     Thanks,
>
>       
>
>     - vijay
>
>     --
>
>     Vijay K. Gurbani, Bell Laboratories, Alcatel-Lucent
>
>     1960 Lucent Lane, Rm. 9C-533, Naperville, Illinois 60566 (USA)
>
>     Email:vkg@{bell-labs.com,acm.org}  <mailto:vkg@%7bbell-labs.com,acm.org%7d>  /vijay.gurbani@alcatel-lucent.com  <mailto:vijay.gurbani@alcatel-lucent.com>
>
>     Web:http://ect.bell-labs.com/who/vkg/
>
>     _______________________________________________
>
>     dispatch mailing list
>
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>
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>
>   
> _______________________________________________
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> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
>
> -- 
> *--
> Cordially,
> Thierry Bessis*
>
> IMS Solution: Architecture & Product Management - ALTA Member
>   Organization: ALU > Carrier group > Wireline BU > **IMS Sol Arch, 
> SE, PdM
> Alcatel-Lucent
> 1960 Lucent Lane - Room 6L-517
>   Naperville, IL  60563  U S
>   Tel/Fax: +1 630 979 7989
>   Corporate IM: tbessis    - Yahoo IM:     thierry_bessis
>
> My WEB page: http://ihgpweb.ih.lucent.com/~tbessis/ 
> <http://ihgpweb.ih.lucent.com/%7Etbessis/>
> My Calendar: www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=new_frs3175%40yahoo.fr 
> <http://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=new_frs3175%40yahoo.fr>
> ALTA Hot Line: http://alta.all.alcatel-lucent.com/hotline
>
> Conference information:
> 2801 2801 (US):+1 800 771 8734 - (F):+33 800 941 674 - Access Code: 
> 9797989
> others countries see: http://all.alcatel-lucent.com/audio
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> *Upcoming planned Business Trip: 12 April - 14 April 2011*
> *Upcoming planned Vacation: None*
>
>   
>   
> _______________________________________________
> dispatch mailing list
> dispatch@ietf.org  <mailto:dispatch@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
>
> -- 
> *--
> Cordially,
> Thierry Bessis*
>
> IMS Solution: Architecture & Product Management - ALTA Member
>   Organization: ALU > Carrier group > Wireline BU > **IMS Sol Arch, 
> SE, PdM
> Alcatel-Lucent
> 1960 Lucent Lane - Room 6L-517
>   Naperville, IL  60563  U S
>   Tel/Fax: +1 630 979 7989
>   Corporate IM: tbessis    - Yahoo IM:     thierry_bessis
>
> My WEB page: http://ihgpweb.ih.lucent.com/~tbessis/ 
> <http://ihgpweb.ih.lucent.com/%7Etbessis/>
> My Calendar: www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=new_frs3175%40yahoo.fr 
> <http://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=new_frs3175%40yahoo.fr>
> ALTA Hot Line: http://alta.all.alcatel-lucent.com/hotline
>
> Conference information:
> 2801 2801 (US):+1 800 771 8734 - (F):+33 800 941 674 - Access Code: 
> 9797989
> others countries see: http://all.alcatel-lucent.com/audio
>
> *Upcoming planned Business Trip: 12 April - 14 April 2011*
> *Upcoming planned Vacation: None*
>
>   
>   
> _______________________________________________
> dispatch mailing list
> dispatch@ietf.org  <mailto:dispatch@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
>
> -- 
> *--
> Cordially,
> Thierry Bessis*
>
> IMS Solution: Architecture & Product Management - ALTA Member
>   Organization: ALU > Carrier group > Wireline BU > **IMS Sol Arch, 
> SE, PdM
> Alcatel-Lucent
> 1960 Lucent Lane - Room 6L-517
>   Naperville, IL  60563  U S
>   Tel/Fax: +1 630 979 7989
>   Corporate IM: tbessis    - Yahoo IM:     thierry_bessis
>
> My WEB page: http://ihgpweb.ih.lucent.com/~tbessis/ 
> <http://ihgpweb.ih.lucent.com/%7Etbessis/>
> My Calendar: www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=new_frs3175%40yahoo.fr 
> <http://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=new_frs3175%40yahoo.fr>
> ALTA Hot Line: http://alta.all.alcatel-lucent.com/hotline
>
> Conference information:
> 2801 2801 (US):+1 800 771 8734 - (F):+33 800 941 674 - Access Code: 
> 9797989
> others countries see: http://all.alcatel-lucent.com/audio
>
> *Upcoming planned Business Trip: 12 April - 14 April 2011*
> *Upcoming planned Vacation: None*
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> dispatch mailing list
> dispatch@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch

-- 
-- 
Cordially,
Thierry Bessis
IMS Solution: Architecture & Product Management - ALTA Member
   Organization: ALU > Carrier group > Wireline BU > **IMS Sol Arch, SE, PdM
Alcatel-Lucent
1960 Lucent Lane - Room 6L-517
   Naperville, IL  60563  U S
   Tel/Fax: +1 630 979 7989
   Corporate IM: tbessis    - Yahoo IM:     thierry_bessis

My WEB page:   http://ihgpweb.ih.lucent.com/~tbessis/
My Calendar:   www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=new_frs3175%40yahoo.fr
ALTA Hot Line: http://alta.all.alcatel-lucent.com/hotline

Conference information:
2801 2801 (US):+1 800 771 8734 - (F):+33 800 941 674 - Access Code: 9797989
others countries see: http://all.alcatel-lucent.com/audio

Upcoming planned Business Trip: 12 April - 14 April 2011
Upcoming planned Vacation: None

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    Paul, <br>
    <span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
      &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31, 73,
      125);"><o:p></o:p></span>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:060701cbdfc6$8fa7ab40$aef701c0$@packetizer.com"
      type="cite">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
            &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31,
            73, 125);">The specific ways through which the SCE value is
            computed may vary by vendor, though the approach we have
            used is one where we calculate an estimate of the number of
            sessions a device can handle given the current number of
            sessions given current memory utilization.&nbsp; We then do the
            same for CPU and other system resources.&nbsp; We then take the
            minimum value of each and report that as the SCE value.&nbsp; As
            a matter of course, our devices are constantly measuring
            these resources, so computing the SCE if trivial.</span></p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    So this mode of operation is very similar to what we also propose.
    Is that number a ratio (percentage of sessions available over the
    total number), or an absolute number ? If this is a ratio, then SCE
    and our load balancing are compatible: the same information and
    transport mechanism could be used for both: A single IETF proposal
    could be done. <br>
    <br>
    Cordially, <br>
    <br>
    Thierry<br>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:060701cbdfc6$8fa7ab40$aef701c0$@packetizer.com"
      type="cite">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
            &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31,
            73, 125);"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
            &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31,
            73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
            &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31,
            73, 125);">Paul<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
            &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31,
            73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <div style="border-width: medium medium medium 1.5pt;
          border-style: none none none solid; border-color:
          -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color
          blue; padding: 0in 0in 0in 4pt;">
          <div>
            <div style="border-right: medium none; border-width: 1pt
              medium medium; border-style: solid none none;
              border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color
              -moz-use-text-color; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">
              <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;
                    font-family:
                    &quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:
                    windowtext;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:
                  10pt; font-family:
                  &quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:
                  windowtext;"> Thierry Bessis
                  [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com">mailto:Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com</a>] <br>
                  <b>Sent:</b> Thursday, March 10, 2011 1:17 PM<br>
                  <b>To:</b> Paul E. Jones<br>
                  <b>Cc:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dispatch@ietf.org">dispatch@ietf.org</a><br>
                  <b>Subject:</b> Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            </div>
          </div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal">Paul, <br>
            <br>
            I agree they are many similitudes ! <span
              class="moz-smiley-s1">:-) </span><br>
            But the question I think is: Can we make the two approaches
            compatible ? <br>
            <br>
            For instance, with our approach, it is fundamental that the
            weight represents a "Relative" occupation, and not an
            absolute capacity.<br>
            The first reason is that we found that loading continuously
            all the servers at the same utilization rate (same
            percentage) is the optimal way of loading a cluster. (We can
            discuss that if not agreed). The second reason is that a
            relative occupation is very easy to derive from information
            already available: any system knows where it is in terms of
            CPU or Memory usage. In contrast, deriving a left capacity
            in terms of remaining sessions can be difficult: Host can be
            used by different applications and perform different duties,
            which can change over the day, all of them impacting their
            true capacity at a certain moment. Beside, as already
            discussed, different sessions require different resources,
            so there is a whole complication of dealing with a multitude
            of call profiles, that (again) are not even constant over
            the day.<br>
            <br>
            Also, we do not want to derive some shedding decision from
            the weight. We want to rely on the OLC mechanism for that.
            As I mentioned before, deriving shedding from the weight is
            very sensitive to the way weights are calculated: we would
            need to specify exactly how the weight is calculated: this
            is impractical ! Also everybody would need to agree about
            specific threshold: What is the weight value threshold for
            shedding ?: Again this is more difficult, and different
            servers will certainly want to use different thresholds. &nbsp;
            Also there is a contradiction: whether you are using
            relative or absolute weights, your weight should&nbsp; zero (100%
            busy, or 0 sessions available) at the moment you are getting
            overloaded. So if you are 100% busy (or in average no room
            for new sessions), how to you tell how many sessions need to
            be shed ? You could be 100% busy with an offered load of
            300% nominal (then you need to shed 66%), or be 100% busy at
            just the nominal load, (then you don't need to shed). This
            again shows this threshold issue I mentioned. In our
            implementation, we used to use to a common "utilization"
            information to do both optimal distribution and shedding,
            but we moved away from that because of those reasons: we
            found that each node indicating its requested rejection rate
            is much more robust and requires very little agreements. <br>
            <br>
            Cordially, <br>
            <br>
            Thierry<br>
            <br>
            <br>
            On 09-Mar-2011 22:15, Paul E. Jones wrote: <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
              font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;">Thierry,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
              font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
              font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;">I
              think there is more in common than not.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
              font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
              font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;">You
              compute a &#8220;weight&#8221; and we compute an &#8220;sce&#8221; that is, in my
              opinion, more or less the same: it&#8217;s a value that
              indicates how much traffic can be directed toward the box
              relative to other peer devices.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
              font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
              font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;">You
              want to do &#8220;load balancing&#8221; whereas we want to do
              &#8220;overload prevention&#8221;.&nbsp; Preventing overload means
              distributing load across boxes.&nbsp; We are not proposing to
              perfectly balance the load, but the load is distributed
              nonetheless.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
              font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
              font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;">Honestly,
              I just don&#8217;t see a lot of difference, other than
              terminology.&nbsp; The algorithm employed by the device
              directing traffic, but that algorithm is independent of
              the advertisement of a capacity/weight value.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
              font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
              font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;">Paul</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
              font-family: &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          <div style="border-width: medium medium medium 1.5pt;
            border-style: none none none solid; padding: 0in 0in 0in
            4pt; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color
            -moz-use-text-color blue;">
            <div>
              <div style="border-right: medium none; border-width: 1pt
                medium medium; border-style: solid none none; padding:
                3pt 0in 0in; border-color: -moz-use-text-color;">
                <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;
                      font-family:
                      &quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:
                      windowtext;">From:</span></b><span
                    style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
                    &quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:
                    windowtext;"> Thierry Bessis [<a
                      moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="mailto:Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com">mailto:Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com</a>]
                    <br>
                    <b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 09, 2011 12:26 PM<br>
                    <b>To:</b> Paul E. Jones<br>
                    <b>Cc:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="mailto:dispatch@ietf.org">dispatch@ietf.org</a><br>
                    <b>Subject:</b> Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              </div>
            </div>
            <p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal">Thanks Paul for you detailed answer ! <br>
              <br>
              I've looked at your SCE proposal and your comments and my
              impression is that our two proposals are actually very
              different both from their intent perspective, and from
              their realization perspective. <br>
              <br>
              The intent of our load balancing proposal is clearly
              continuous load balancing. Our suggested weight does try
              to figure any kind of remaining capacity in terms of
              sessions: it only indicates the instant (slightly
              smoothed) available resource, which integrates CPU, Memory
              and any other constrained resource. For the kind of usage
              we have in mind, (and for example), it does not matter if
              we have lot of sessions "left" when we have very little
              CPU to register those sessions: it is optimal to temporary
              offload this busy node rather than risking a CPU induced
              rejection or failure. When the node will have more CPU
              available, it will take more sessions, and may be even
              more than others, because it may have now more memory than
              others. If this node never have more CPU available, then
              its "session" capacity is actually unusable and the system
              correctly reflects that. <br>
              <br>
              Also, the SOC was not intended for "dynamic" load
              distribution: it only provides the feedback when some
              shedding is expected (So already one or multiple nodes are
              about to be overloaded). Also, integrating the information
              from both SOC and SCE to take the distribution decision
              seems rather complicated to me. In our proposal, the
              distribution algorithm is simple, never changes, and is
              independent from SOC. We selected a node with weights
              always the same way, and we apply the SOC rejection when
              applicable to this node.<br>
              <br>
              Cordially, <br>
              <br>
              Thierry<br>
              <br>
              On 08-Mar-2011 14:47, Paul E. Jones wrote: <o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
                font-family:
                &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;">Thierry,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
                font-family:
                &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
                font-family:
                &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;">Please see
                my comments below in green:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
                font-family:
                &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
                font-family:
                &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
            <div style="border-width: medium medium medium 1.5pt;
              border-style: none none none solid; padding: 0in 0in 0in
              4pt; border-color: -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color
              -moz-use-text-color blue;">
              <div>
                <div style="border-right: medium none; border-width: 1pt
                  medium medium; border-style: solid none none; padding:
                  3pt 0in 0in; border-color: -moz-use-text-color;">
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;
                        font-family:
                        &quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
                        color: windowtext;">From:</span></b><span
                      style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
                      &quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:
                      windowtext;"> Thierry Bessis [<a
                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com">mailto:Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com</a>]
                      <br>
                      <b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, March 08, 2011 12:35 PM<br>
                      <b>To:</b> Paul E. Jones<br>
                      <b>Cc:</b> 'Vijay K. Gurbani'; <a
                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:dispatch@ietf.org">dispatch@ietf.org</a><br>
                      <b>Subject:</b> Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing</span><o:p></o:p></p>
                </div>
              </div>
              <p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal">Paul, <br>
                <br>
                Please let me address some of your comments. <br>
                I don't know what the SCE is, so please pardon me if I
                misunderstand something. <br>
                <br>
                On 07-Mar-2011 23:05, Paul E. Jones wrote: <o:p></o:p></p>
              <pre>Vijay,<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>The Session Capacity Estimate (SCE) idea is actually quite similar to the<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>"adaptive load balancing" draft, from what I can see.&nbsp; SCE was proposed as a<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>solution to the "overload" problem, the approach being one where we try to<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>avoid overload by selecting a device that reports a higher capacity value.<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>Thus, one could view it as "overload control through load balancing".&nbsp; We<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>didn't explicitly call it load balancing, though, because we were not trying<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>to balance load (i.e., place the same load on all servers). &nbsp;Rather, we just<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>wanted to direct traffic to devices that we knew had available capacity.<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <p class="MsoNormal">Agreed, the goal seems to be the
                same: avoiding or at least delaying overload. <br>
                And your other comment too: our proposal does try to
                balance the load on all the servers. The rational is
                that it is very easy for each server to know where it is
                in terms of resource usage (for instance: I'm 60 percent
                resource loaded at this moment), and this is just the
                information you need to balance the traffic. Now it
                seems (but it is not clear, see below)&nbsp; that the SCE
                "available capacity" is actually a real time feedback,
                so the information would be very similar actually.
                (What's the difference ? )<o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
                  font-family:
                  &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:
                  rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
                  font-family:
                  &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:
                  rgb(0, 176, 80);">PEJ: I think it is very similar.&nbsp;
                  SCE provides real-time feedback of the available
                  resource capacity of a peer device.&nbsp; The intent is to
                  convey a single integer value that represents an
                  estimate of the number of sessions the peer device can
                  handle.&nbsp; Note, this is not &#8220;message per second&#8221; or
                  other, but the number of sessions.&nbsp; The focus on SCE
                  is on devices like &#8220;call agents&#8221;, &#8220;session border
                  controllers&#8221;, stateful SIP proxies, etc.</span> <br>
                <br>
                <br>
                <br>
                <o:p></o:p></p>
              <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>In practice, the way SCE would be employed is the following:<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>* SIP proxy, B2BUA, etc. (selector) would receive SCE capacity from<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; peer devices<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre> * The selector would direct traffic toward the peer devices in a<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; round-robin fashion, taking into consideration the SCE value so<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; as to prevent exhausting resources on any given peer device<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <p class="MsoNormal">I see a contradiction here: if it is
                round-robin, it does not take into account the SCE
                value. <br>
                Is that something more like a weighted round-robin
                algorithm ? <o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
                  font-family:
                  &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:
                  rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
                  font-family:
                  &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:
                  rgb(0, 176, 80);">PEJ: As I mention below, the
                  algorithm used to select a peer device is not a part
                  of the SCE draft.&nbsp; One can use any mechanism.&nbsp; The SCE
                  draft merely advertises a session capacity estimate.&nbsp;
                  We&#8217;ve found round-robin to be a simple approach that
                  works, as it distributes load relatively uniformly,
                  but stops directing traffic toward devices that report
                  an SCE value that is below a specified threshold.
                  Other input could be considered, but we deliberately
                  left the algorithm outside the scope of SCE.</span><br>
                <br>
                <br>
                <br>
                <o:p></o:p></p>
              <pre> * Once the peer's SCE value dropped below a given "low-water mark",<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; the peer device would be less favored and not given traffic until<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; the SCE value increases above the low-water mark (OPTIONS "ping"<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; messages may be used to determine the SCE value in the event that<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; there is no other traffic)<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <p class="MsoNormal">Why would we wait for a lower mark
                before to influence the distribution ? Also is that less
                favored, or given no traffic ? <o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
                  font-family:
                  &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:
                  rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
                  font-family:
                  &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:
                  rgb(0, 176, 80);">PEJ: With our use of SCE, we&#8217;re not
                  trying to &#8220;balance&#8221; the load, per se.&nbsp; One certainly
                  could do that, but in order to balance the load on
                  peer devices when they are out of balance, one must
                  direct multiple new sessions toward the same device.&nbsp;
                  That is not always desirable since new sessions
                  usually consume more resources temporarily than
                  established sessions.&nbsp; So, we try to burden a peer
                  device by throwing a number of new sessions toward the
                  peer by distributing them in a round-robin fashion.&nbsp;
                  Again, though, the approach taken is outside the scope
                  of the SCE draft.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
                  font-family:
                  &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:
                  rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
                The later has stability issues.&nbsp; And why do we need ping
                Options when there is no traffic ?<br>
                &nbsp;If there is no traffic (or very little), should we care
                about optimal distribution from this source ?<o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
                  font-family:
                  &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:
                  rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
                  font-family:
                  &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:
                  rgb(0, 176, 80);">PEJ: The assumption is that a peer
                  device might also have several peers.&nbsp; So, while
                  device A1 may not be directing traffic toward device
                  B, perhaps A2, A3, and A4 are.&nbsp; We can use OPTIONS
                  &#8220;ping&#8221; messages to get current SCE information.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
                <br>
                <br>
                <br>
                <o:p></o:p></p>
              <pre>&nbsp;* The current SOC overload control mechanism would be used to<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; to prevent message overloading, as SCE only focuses on resource<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;&nbsp; overloading (e.g., memory, CPU, disk space, DSPs)<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <p class="MsoNormal">I don't see this difference here
                (message overload versus resource overload ? ) . To me,
                SOC focuses on source shedding, while SCE seems to focus
                on improved load distribution, just like our proposal.<o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
                  font-family:
                  &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:
                  rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
                  font-family:
                  &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:
                  rgb(0, 176, 80);">PEJ: A peer device might be able to
                  handle 18,000 new sessions, but perhaps it can only
                  handle them at a rate of 100 per second.&nbsp; We would use
                  SCE to determine that a peer can handle new sessions,
                  while we would use the methods SOC is defining to
                  prevent message overload so we do not send 200 INVITEs
                  per second to the peer.&nbsp; (Use of the SOC mechanism
                  might prove to work better than our current
                  round-robin approach, but we&#8217;ve not tested it.)</span>
                <br>
                <br>
                <br>
                <br>
                <o:p></o:p></p>
              <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>Note that the "round-robin" approach may or may not be preferred and is not<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>required in our draft.&nbsp; I've found this approach works pretty well, but one<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>may prefer to use a particular weighting that is more complex.&nbsp; I don't<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>think local decisions in the box need to be subject to standardization: we<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>just need to standardize the signaling to enable such decisions.<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <p class="MsoNormal">I believe the signaling is not
                enough. The deep meaning of the feedback parameter needs
                to be clarified too. <br>
                For example, in our proposal, the feedback is simply the
                current utilization rate of the node (very simple).<o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
                  font-family:
                  &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:
                  rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
                  font-family:
                  &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:
                  rgb(0, 176, 80);">PEJ: That sounds similar to SCE.&nbsp; An
                  SCE-capable device advertises to its peer how many new
                  sessions it can handle given the number of sessions it
                  is currently handling.</span> <br>
                <br>
                Also the expectation needs to be clarified because it
                has a very important impact on the recommended behavior
                in case of overload. <br>
                The solution that we propose constantly tries to balance
                load in the cluster of servers. Therefore, in case the
                SOC shedding kicks in, there is NOT NEED to repeat the
                message elsewhere in the cluster because it is balanced
                already (So no other server has more capacity). This is
                a huge advantage for the network stability as message
                repeat tends to spread the overload and collapse the
                cluster. <br>
                <br>
                <br>
                <br>
                <o:p></o:p></p>
              <pre>In any case, it certainly looks like we're thinking along the same lines.<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <p class="MsoNormal">Yes I agree. <br>
                <br>
                <br>
                <br>
                <o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
                  font-family:
                  &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:
                  rgb(0, 176, 80);">PEJ: If you haven&#8217;t already, have a
                  look at our draft:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
                  font-family:
                  &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:
                  rgb(0, 176, 80);"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jones-sip-overload-sce-00"><span
                      style="color: rgb(0, 176, 80);">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jones-sip-overload-sce-00</span></a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
                  font-family:
                  &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:
                  rgb(0, 176, 80);">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
                  font-family:
                  &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:
                  rgb(0, 176, 80);">It is now expired, but your draft
                  suggests there is still life in this approach.&nbsp; We
                  should look to harmonize them, perhaps.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
                  font-family:
                  &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:
                  rgb(0, 176, 80);">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
                  font-family:
                  &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:
                  rgb(0, 176, 80);">Paul</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
                  font-family:
                  &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:
                  rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
                Cordially, <br>
                <br>
                Thierry<br>
                <br>
                <br>
                <br>
                <o:p></o:p></p>
              <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>Paul<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
              <blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;">
                <pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>From: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dispatch-bounces@ietf.org">dispatch-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dispatch-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dispatch-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>Behalf Of Vijay K. Gurbani<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 6:38 PM<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>To: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dispatch@ietf.org">dispatch@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>Paul: Thank you for your input.&nbsp; More inline.<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>On 03/07/2011 05:14 PM, Paul Kyzivat wrote:<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;">
                  <pre>Vijay,<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>IIUC, the algorithm you have proposed is similar to the one Paul Jones<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>has proposed - with the main difference being the numeric range of the<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>weight. Do I have that right?<o:p></o:p></pre>
                </blockquote>
                <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>I believe that Paul J.'s algorithm is more suited towards overload<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>control, not load balancing (and I will await Paul J.'s correction to my<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>assertion).<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>The intent in draft-bessis-dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing is to<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>*always* report the current load to give the upstream SIP proxy an<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>indication of the health of the SIP server in the cluster.&nbsp; If one waits<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>until overload is imminent, then it may be too late since a sudden and<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>unanticipated burst of messages will put the SIP server in overload<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>rather quickly.<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;">
                  <pre>It isn't clear to me from your draft if you are specifying the<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>algorithm by which the relative weights are used to determine the<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>probability of a request going to one server or another.<o:p></o:p></pre>
                </blockquote>
                <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>Yes, same way as RFC2782 does it.<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;">
                  <pre>ISTM that it *does* matter. And it especially matters if there is an<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>implication that the upstream node's algorithm may depend on some<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>assumption or knowledge about the downstream nodes.<o:p></o:p></pre>
                </blockquote>
                <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>No knowledge, just a reported number that the upstream SIP proxy can<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>treat as a RFC2782-like weight indicator.&nbsp; Today, rfc3263-resolution<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>starts off with the SRV indicators in RFC2782, without any regard to<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>additional knowledge or assumption about downstream nodes.<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing is trying to use the same model, except<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>render the weight to be sensitive to the current traffic in the cluster<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>in real-time.<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;">
                  <pre>And of course this method of reporting weights isn't sufficient to<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>drive a balancing algorithm that is sensitive to some requests<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>requiring more or different resources than others. (That seems to be a<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>real problem, though I don't know if we have a real solution for<o:p></o:p></pre>
                  <pre>it.)<o:p></o:p></pre>
                </blockquote>
                <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>Yes, that is a real problem, as is the problem of a SIP server in a<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>cluster that has a low weight and is thus not contacted with enough<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>frequency to merit more participation to the goodput.<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>It is well known in SIP that some methods are more onerous to process<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>than others --- from a proxying point of view, processing an INVITE with<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>forking and response aggregation is far more detrimental to resource<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>usage than is processing a BYE.&nbsp; Some existing literature techniques<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>thus add a coefficient to the weight of sending an INVITE versus a BYE.<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>At this time, the process outlined in dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>treats all requests the same, but we can definitely look at ways to<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>change this behaviour.<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>- vijay<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>--<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>Vijay K. Gurbani, Bell Laboratories, Alcatel-Lucent<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>1960 Lucent Lane, Rm. 9C-533, Naperville, Illinois 60566 (USA)<o:p></o:p></pre>
                <pre>Email: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:vkg@%7bbell-labs.com,acm.org%7d">vkg@{bell-labs.com,acm.org}</a> / <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:vijay.gurbani@alcatel-lucent.com">vijay.gurbani@alcatel-lucent.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
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              <pre>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></pre>
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              <p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
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          </div>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></pre>
          <pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre>dispatch mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:dispatch@ietf.org">dispatch@ietf.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
          <pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal">-- <br>
              <b><span style="font-size: 24pt; font-family: &quot;French
                  Script MT&quot;;">-- <br>
                  Cordially, <br>
                  Thierry Bessis</span></b> <o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal">&nbsp; <span style="font-family:
                &quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;">IMS Solution:
                Architecture &amp; Product Management - ALTA Member<br>
                &nbsp; Organization: ALU &gt; Carrier group &gt; Wireline BU
                &gt;&nbsp;</span><b> </b>IMS Sol Arch, SE, PdM<br>
              <img id="_x0000_i1027"
                src="cid:part1.07030305.05010107@alcatel-lucent.com"
                alt="Alcatel-Lucent" border="0" height="104" width="299"><br>
              &nbsp; <span style="font-family:
                &quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;">1960 Lucent
                Lane - Room 6L-517<br>
                &nbsp; Naperville, IL&nbsp; 60563&nbsp; U S<br>
                &nbsp; Tel/Fax: +1 630 979 7989<br>
                &nbsp; Corporate IM: tbessis&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - Yahoo IM:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
                thierry_bessis</span><br>
              <br>
              <span style="font-size: 10pt;">My WEB page:&nbsp;&nbsp; <a
                  moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="http://ihgpweb.ih.lucent.com/%7Etbessis/">http://ihgpweb.ih.lucent.com/~tbessis/</a><br>
                My Calendar:&nbsp;&nbsp; <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="http://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=new_frs3175%40yahoo.fr">www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=new_frs3175%40yahoo.fr</a><br>
                ALTA Hot Line: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="http://alta.all.alcatel-lucent.com/hotline">http://alta.all.alcatel-lucent.com/hotline</a></span><br>
              <br>
              <span style="font-size: 10pt;">Conference information:<br>
                2801 2801 (US):+1 800 771 8734 - (F):+33 800 941 674 -
                Access Code: 9797989<br>
                others countries see: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="http://all.alcatel-lucent.com/audio">http://all.alcatel-lucent.com/audio</a></span><br>
              <br>
              <b><span style="font-size: 18pt; font-family: &quot;French
                  Script MT&quot;;">Upcoming planned Business Trip: 12
                  April - 14 April 2011</span></b><br>
              <b><span style="font-size: 18pt; font-family: &quot;French
                  Script MT&quot;;">Upcoming planned Vacation: None</span></b>
              <o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
      <pre wrap="">
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
_______________________________________________
dispatch mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dispatch@ietf.org">dispatch@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
      <meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
        http-equiv="Content-Type">
      <title>Thierry's signature</title>
      <meta content="Thierry Bessis" name="author">
      <big style="font-weight: bold;"><big><big><span
              style="font-family: French Script MT;">-- <br>
              Cordially, <br>
            </span></big></big></big><big style="font-weight: bold;"><big><big><span
              style="font-family: French Script MT;">Thierry Bessis</span></big></big></big>
      <div> </div>
      <div> </div>
      &nbsp;
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">IMS Solution: Architecture
        &amp; Product Management - ALTA Member</span><br
        style="font-family: Arial;">
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">&nbsp; Organization: ALU &gt; Carrier
        group &gt;
        Wireline BU &gt;&nbsp;</span><b> </b>IMS Sol Arch, SE, PdM<br>
      <img style="width: 242px; height: 66px;" alt="Alcatel-Lucent"
        src="cid:part4.03020004.01040809@alcatel-lucent.com"><br>
      &nbsp;
      <span style="font-family: Arial;"></span><span style="font-family:
        Arial;">1960 Lucent Lane - Room 6L-517</span><br
        style="font-family: Arial;">
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">&nbsp; Naperville, IL&nbsp;
        60563&nbsp; U
        S</span><br style="font-family: Arial;">
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">&nbsp; Tel/Fax: +1 630 979 7989</span><br
        style="font-family: Arial;">
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">&nbsp; Corporate IM:
        tbessis&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
        - Yahoo IM:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
        thierry_bessis</span><br>
      <br>
      <small>My WEB page:&nbsp;&nbsp; <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://ihgpweb.ih.lucent.com/~tbessis/">http://ihgpweb.ih.lucent.com/~tbessis/</a><br>
        My Calendar:&nbsp;&nbsp;
        <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=new_frs3175%40yahoo.fr">www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=new_frs3175%40yahoo.fr</a><br>
        ALTA Hot Line: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://alta.all.alcatel-lucent.com/hotline">http://alta.all.alcatel-lucent.com/hotline</a></small><br>
      <br>
      <small>Conference information:<br>
        2801 2801 (US):+1 800 771 8734 - (F):+33 800 941 674 - Access
        Code:
        9797989<br>
        others countries see: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://all.alcatel-lucent.com/audio">http://all.alcatel-lucent.com/audio</a></small><br>
      <br>
      <big style="font-weight: bold;"><big><span style="font-family:
            French Script MT;">Upcoming planned Business Trip:
            12 April - 14 April 2011</span></big></big><br>
      <big style="font-weight: bold;"><big><span style="font-family:
            French Script MT;">Upcoming planned Vacation: None</span></big></big>
    </div>
  </body>
</html>

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--------------050204040908060906060900--

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Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 11:28:53 -0600
From: Henry Sinnreich <henry.sinnreich@gmail.com>
To: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>, Andrew Allen <aallen@rim.com>, "tanakai@nttdocomo.co.jp" <tanakai@nttdocomo.co.jp>, "dispatch@ietf.org" <dispatch@ietf.org>
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Hi Andrew, Christer,

>> My understanding also is that IETF nearly a decade ago agreed to
>> cooperate with 3GPP (and other standards bodies) in developing and
>> enhancing internet protocols

3GPP etc. documents are best served by having them online, up-to-date, on
their respective web sites, where they can be searched and studied.
Using IETF RFCs for this seems rather odd, and certainly less effective.

>some people in IETF suddently thinks there are more "fun and sexy" stuff to
>work on than SIP...

As mentioned, after 100's of SIP RFCs and I-Ds over 12+ years, almost all
SIP apps are telephony features, while 100,000s of apps are all using HTML,
some of them to communicate in new ways - quite different from the SIP
telephone call signaling models. RTC-Web may or may not be based on SIP
signaling _alone_ , if at all. Communication models and user habits have
changed very much (and are still changing) since SIP has been defined.

Don't you think we have a problem here?
If yes, wouldn't listening to the IETF technical plenary presentation on the
future of applications be a good start to address the challenge for SIP
applications?

What do you think?

Henry


On 3/11/11 12:57 AM, "Christer Holmberg" <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
wrote:

> 
> Hi,
> 
> I agree with Andrew.
> 
> People have invested, and are investing, lots of resources into SIP based
> systems. They are not suddently going to throw everything away just because
> some people in IETF suddently thinks there are more "fun and sexy" stuff to
> work on than SIP...
> 
> Also, regarding the agreement between IETF and 3GPP, if people have issues
> with that agreement I don't think that people who are working based on that
> agreement should have to suffer.
> 
> Instead, people having issues with the agreement should bring those issues to
> a more appropriate instance.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Christer
> 
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: dispatch-bounces@ietf.org
>> [mailto:dispatch-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Allen
>> Sent: 11. maaliskuuta 2011 0:04
>> To: Henry Sinnreich; tanakai@nttdocomo.co.jp; dispatch@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [dispatch]
>> Revisionofdraft-allen-dispatch-imei-urn-as-instanceid
>> 
>> Hi Henry,
>> 
>> I think then that it's a fair summary of your email to say
>> that your objections are of a political and philosophical
>> nature related to your view of what constitutes the internet
>> and whether the IETF should be involved in enhancing IETF
>> protocols for stakeholders that utilize those IETF protocols
>> for deployments that some in the community might not consider
>> "the Internet" or "the pure Internet" or the "open e2e
>> Internet" rather than technical issues with the contents of
>> the drafts.
>> 
>> While I don't want to start a general debate on what is "the Internet"
>> here I will state that in my view it's very difficult to
>> exclude any particular stakeholders and their deployments of
>> IETF protocols from being part of the Internet when those
>> stakeholders are in many cases the very same established
>> telecommunications companies or ISPs that the vast majority
>> of the population in most countries use to obtain access to
>> the Internet. 
>> 
>> My understanding also is that IETF nearly a decade ago agreed
>> to cooperate with 3GPP (and other standards bodies) in
>> developing and enhancing internet protocols and that IETF
>> specifically requested (more like insisted) that any
>> extensions or enhancements to IETF protocols required by 3GPP
>> be done within IETF according to the procedures defined by
>> IETF for enhancing IETF protocols and for registering namespaces etc.
>> These drafts simply comply with that agreed way of working
>> between IETF and 3GPP. To my knowledge this working agreement
>> is still in effect. I don't think it is the role of the
>> dispatch WG to determine which applications or deployments of
>> SIP to support or cooperate with counter to agreements
>> previously made at IESG level.
>> 
>> Refusing cooperation based on what is considered not to be
>> part of the "open e2e Internet" is only likely to set up two
>> (or more) competing versions of the Internet resulting in the
>> 21st century equivalent of the standard rail gauge vs broad
>> rail gauge communications interoperability issue from the
>> 19th century - effectively killing the goal of an open e2e
>> internet! As Dale indicated what is considered a walled
>> garden today may not be walled in the future (if I remember
>> some very significant walls came tumbling down during just
>> the last decade of the 20th century alone).
>> 
>> Different business models will be resolved through the market
>> not by creating competing incompatible technical solutions.
>> 
>> In terms of the time used on discussion within dispatch I
>> don't think there is a need for much more discussion in
>> dispatch. These drafts could go ahead as AD sponsored without
>> further WG involvement. As I understand it the IMEI URN
>> definition draft did not as part of the URN registration
>> process need to even be discussed in dispatch at all
>> (although Dale Worley's review was invaluable in improving
>> the draft technically) as the NIDs list was the fora for this
>> discussion and where previous versions of that draft were discussed.
>> 
>> It should be noted all we are talking about with regard to
>> these drafts is the registration of a URN namespace and
>> definition of its usage as an Instance ID as required by RFC
>> 5626. If we can't agree that then what future extensions can we agree?
>> 
>> Andrew
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Henry Sinnreich [mailto:henry.sinnreich@gmail.com]
>> Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2011 11:03 AM
>> To: Andrew Allen; tanakai@nttdocomo.co.jp; dispatch@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [dispatch]
>> Revisionofdraft-allen-dispatch-imei-urn-as-instanceid
>> 
>> Hi Andrew,
>> 
>> I have generic objections to see the publication of yet
>> another informational RFC about practices in consortiums of
>> closed networks in the IETF, for the following reasons:
>> 
>> * Using the RFC process as a publishing venue for
>> organizations that don't explicitly do that in support of the
>> open e2e Internet.
>> 
>> * The resources of the IETF are not unlimited, meeting time
>> and email time to discuss is scarce and the IETF registries
>> are just not scalable enough to support registrations for all
>> the extensions that benefit countless external organizations
>> and companies that deploy Internet technology.
>> New business plans and the required extensions pop up in an
>> endless fashion.
>> Big organizations such as you mention have their own
>> resources to publish their internal technical documents and
>> white papers if they desire to do so.
>> 
>> Members of outside organizations are certainly doing
>> everybody a good service by informing via email of new
>> standards/extensions in other organization, such as you have
>> done below, but such information need not overload the
>> Internet RFC process nor overload the Internet registries.
>> 
>> * Hard for SIP developers and right out impossible for
>> application developers.
>> Though SIP works fine indeed across the world; SIPit and the
>> SIP Forum take care of unavoidable problems still encountered
>> by operators, arguably increasing SIP complexity for
>> non-Internet purposes is not a good idea, even if new SIP
>> extensions are labeled as just "informational". It makes it
>> even more difficult for new developers entering the field to
>> ever understand, let alone write code for some or all that
>> has been published already about SIP for example. Checking
>> right now there are 197 RFCs matching SIP and 78 I-Ds found
>> by the RFC search engine.
>> 
>> It is time to leave SIP alone and move on to other critical
>> areas for the Internet, such as for example the future of
>> applications that will be discussed in the next IETF
>> technical plenary on Monday, March 28.
>> 
>> With this in mind, I would rather not go into discussing your
>> I-D in detail, though at first glance it seems technically
>> correct and if it were discussed on the list, may indeed
>> technically qualify as an informational RFC - just what I am
>> arguing against.
>> 
>> These are all personal opinions. The chairs and ADs may or
>> may not discuss or agree/disagree with. Your I-D is just a
>> good opportunity to raise these issues.
>> 
>> Note that I am not suggesting any voting on your I-D, if it
>> will be discussed, since for various reasons, the majority of
>> folks attending the DISPATCH WG are from various outside
>> organizations with business plans that may or may not fully
>> embrace the open e2e Internet; a perfect legitimate choice
>> for them, but not  in the IETF (I just can't remember when
>> ever there was a vote against any new I-D for SIP, since no
>> cost was perceived by those voting).
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Henry 
>> 
>> 
>> On 3/9/11 5:45 PM, "Andrew Allen" <aallen@rim.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> Henry
>>> 
>>> Would you care to elaborate and explain your specific concerns?  How
>> is what
>>> is defined in these drafts potentially incompatible with
>> the open, e2e 
>>> architectural and in any other way technical conflict with the
>> Internet?
>>> 
>>> The two drafts do the following things:
>>> 
>>> One draft simply defines and registers with IANA a URN namespace
>> according to
>>> the procedures defined for doing that.
>>> 
>>> The other draft simply defines how this URN can be used as
>> an instance
>> ID as
>>> required by RFC 5626.
>>> 
>>> SIP and the mechanisms in RFC 5626 are already being used
>> in networks
>> defined
>>> by 3GPP and are being deployed by members of the GSMA. 3GPP and GSMA
>> have
>>> already defined this behavior using their existing device
>> Identifiers
>> for
>>> instance ID generation in their specifications. These
>> drafts complete
>> the
>>> process doing things the right way by reserving the namespace and
>> defining the
>>> usage of it using the IETF defined mechanisms for doing that.
>>> 
>>> Andrew
>>> 
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Henry Sinnreich [mailto:henry.sinnreich@gmail.com]
>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 03:10 PM
>>> To: Itsuma TANAKA <tanakai@nttdocomo.co.jp>; dispatch@ietf.org
>>> <dispatch@ietf.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [dispatch]
>> Revisionofdraft-allen-dispatch-imei-urn-as-instanceid
>>> 
>>> Such work in the IETF would require IMO an explanation about its
>>> compatibility with the open, e2e architectural and other technical
>>> principles of the Internet. It actually seems to be the opposite.
>>> 
>>> For this reason, such work may be better accomplished in other
>>> organizations, so as to avoid architectural principle and other
>> technical
>>> conflicts. Simplicity and scalability comes to mind among other,
>> though this
>>> is better discussed elsewhere.
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> 
>>> Henry Sinnreich
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 3/9/11 8:54 AM, "Itsuma TANAKA" <tanakai@nttdocomo.co.jp> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Dear All,
>>>> 
>>>> I work for NTT DOCOMO, Inc in Japan. and attend various
>> 3GPP meetings
>> (SA2,
>>>> CT1, CT4, and CT3) and GSM Association (GSMA) Interworking, Roaming
>> Expert
>>>> Group (IREG), Roaming in LTE (RILTE) and Packet subgroup
>> meetings.  I
>> serve
>>>> as a Vice Chair of GSMA IREG RILTE and Packet subgroups.
>>>> 
>>>> I would like to express my support of
>> draft-montemurro-gsma-imei-urn
>> and the
>>>> associated draft-allen-dispatch-imei-urn-as-instanceid.
>>>> 
>>>> The reasons are exactly same as what Ricky Kaura (Samsung)
>> expressed.
>> A
>>>> various 3GPP specifications (IMS Registration in 3GPP
>> TS24.229, IMS 
>>>> emergency calls in TS23.237 and TS24.237, ICS in TS23.292 and
>> TS24.292), and
>>>> GSMA document (GSMA PRD IR.92, "IMS Profile for Voice and SMS") are
>> using
>>>> these drafts.
>>>> 
>>>> These internet drafts are very important to support various key
>> features in
>>>> 3GPP and to enable GSMA Voice over LTE.  Therefore, I kindly would
>> like ask
>>>> that this work is progressed as quickly as possible in IETF.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Best regards,
>>>> 
>>>> Itsuma Tanaka
>>>> NTT DOCOMO
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> dispatch mailing list
>>>> dispatch@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> dispatch mailing list
>>> dispatch@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
>>> 
>>> 
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>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
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From henry.sinnreich@gmail.com  Fri Mar 11 10:19:51 2011
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Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 11:26:46 -0600
From: Henry Sinnreich <henry.sinnreich@gmail.com>
To: Andrew Allen <aallen@rim.com>, <tanakai@nttdocomo.co.jp>, <dispatch@ietf.org>, Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
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Thread-Topic: [dispatch] Revisionofdraft-allen-dispatch-imei-urn-as-instanceid
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Hi Andrew, Christer,

> My understanding also is that IETF nearly a decade ago agreed to
> cooperate with 3GPP (and other standards bodies) in developing and
> enhancing internet protocols

3GPP etc. documents are best served by having them online, up-to-date, on
their respective web sites, where they can be easily searched and studied.
Using IETF RFCs for this seem rather odd, and certainly less effective.

>some people in IETF suddently thinks there are more "fun and sexy" stuff to
>work on than SIP...

As mentioned, after 100's of SIP RFCs and I-Ds over 12+ years, almost all
SIP apps are telephony features, while 100,000s of apps are all using HTML,
some of them to communicate in new ways - quite different from the SIP
telephone call signaling models. RTC-Web may or may not be based on SIP
signaling _alone_ , if at all. Communication models and user habits have
changed very much (and are still changing) since SIP has been defined.

Don't you think we have a problem here?
If yes, wouldn't listening to the IETF technical plenary presentation on the
future of applications be a good start to address the challenge for SIP
applications?

What do you think?

Henry









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Subject: Re: [dispatch] Revisionofdraft-allen-dispatch-imei-urn-as-instanceid
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Henry,

The following is from fdraft-allen-dispatch-imei-urn-as-instanceid:

    RFC 5626 [1] defines that a UA SHOULD create a Universally Unique
    Identifier (UUID) URN as defined in RFC 4122 [6] as its instance-id
    but allows for the possibility of other URN schemes to be used.  If a
    URN scheme other than UUID is used, the UA MUST only use URNs for
    which an RFC (from the IETF stream) defines how the specific URN
    needs to be constructed and used in the "+sip.instance" Contact
    header field parameter for outbound behavior.  This specification
    meets this requirement by specifying how the GSMA IEMEI URN is used
    in the "+sip.instance" Contact header field parameter for outbound
    behavior and draft-montemurro-gsma-imei-urn-06 [3] defines how the
    GSMA IMEI URN is constructed

They are doing what we required them to do. If we had not required an 
RFC then they wouldn't be here with this draft. How can we fault them 
for following the rules?

	Thanks,
	Paul

On 3/11/2011 12:26 PM, Henry Sinnreich wrote:
> Hi Andrew, Christer,
>
>> My understanding also is that IETF nearly a decade ago agreed to
>> cooperate with 3GPP (and other standards bodies) in developing and
>> enhancing internet protocols
>
> 3GPP etc. documents are best served by having them online, up-to-date, on
> their respective web sites, where they can be easily searched and studied.
> Using IETF RFCs for this seem rather odd, and certainly less effective.
>
>> some people in IETF suddently thinks there are more "fun and sexy" stuff to
>> work on than SIP...
>
> As mentioned, after 100's of SIP RFCs and I-Ds over 12+ years, almost all
> SIP apps are telephony features, while 100,000s of apps are all using HTML,
> some of them to communicate in new ways - quite different from the SIP
> telephone call signaling models. RTC-Web may or may not be based on SIP
> signaling _alone_ , if at all. Communication models and user habits have
> changed very much (and are still changing) since SIP has been defined.
>
> Don't you think we have a problem here?
> If yes, wouldn't listening to the IETF technical plenary presentation on the
> future of applications be a good start to address the challenge for SIP
> applications?
>
> What do you think?
>
> Henry
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> dispatch mailing list
> dispatch@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
>

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From: "Paul E. Jones" <paulej@packetizer.com>
To: "'Thierry Bessis'" <Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com>
References: <4D755B9E.6030008@bell-labs.com>	<4D7566C1.40605@cisco.com>	<4D756C47.1000509@bell-labs.com>	<086e01cbdd4e$6b8188f0$42849ad0$@packetizer.com>	<4D7668B9.1020105@alcatel-lucent.com>	<004601cbddd2$15b11ab0$41135010$@packetizer.com>	<4D77B831.7000404@alcatel-lucent.com>	<026f01cbded9$be15f290$3a41d7b0$@packetizer.com>	<4D791595.2010703@alcatel-lucent.com> <060701cbdfc6$8fa7ab40$aef701c0$@packetizer.com> <4D7A50AA.3060805@alcatel-lucent.com>
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Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing
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Thierry,

 

The SCE value is en estimate of the number of sessions the device can handle
given the current number of sessions giving respect to the current resource
utilization.  If there are 500 sessions, for example, and the CPU is at 50%
over the past n seconds, then one might assume the device can handle another
500 sessions.  Thus, the SCE might be set to 500.  However, this value is
subject to change every time resources are measured.  There are also "edge
cases" where the current number of sessions and the CPU is at 10%.  In such
cases where arithmetic would not yield a reasonable number, then the device
would need to assume a reasonable value (perhaps based on lab measurements
during development).  I would personally measure each important resource
type and calculate a possible SCE and then take the minimum of those SCE
values.

 

So, the value is not a ratio, but an estimate of the available capacity.

 

Now, looking at the peers to an SBC, what we see are multiple SCE values
advertised, such as (a) 400, (b) 600, (c) 800, and (d) 1000.  This tells us
that device D has the highest available capacity.  We could look at those as
"weights" and send a higher portion of traffic toward (d), but we do not.
Our approach is to then round-robin across those devices so as to avoid
overloading a device with too many SIP messages.  After all, just because a
device can handle more simultaneous calls does not mean that it has a higher
message-handling capacity: this is why we would want to complement SCE with
the current SOC work that is focused on message throttling.  Having said
that, nothing would require one to perform round-robin in SCE.  The
algorithm to select the peer given a set of SCE values was not described in
our document (see Section 6 - we leave that open to implementation).

 

Paul

 

From: Thierry Bessis [mailto:Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com] 
Sent: Friday, March 11, 2011 11:41 AM
To: Paul E. Jones
Cc: dispatch@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing

 

Paul, 



The specific ways through which the SCE value is computed may vary by
vendor, though the approach we have used is one where we calculate an
estimate of the number of sessions a device can handle given the current
number of sessions given current memory utilization.  We then do the same
for CPU and other system resources.  We then take the minimum value of each
and report that as the SCE value.  As a matter of course, our devices are
constantly measuring these resources, so computing the SCE if trivial.

So this mode of operation is very similar to what we also propose. Is that
number a ratio (percentage of sessions available over the total number), or
an absolute number ? If this is a ratio, then SCE and our load balancing are
compatible: the same information and transport mechanism could be used for
both: A single IETF proposal could be done. 

Cordially, 

Thierry 


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lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Thierry,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>The SCE value is en estimate of the number of sessions the device can =
handle given the current number of sessions giving respect to the =
current resource utilization.&nbsp; If there are 500 sessions, for =
example, and the CPU is at 50% over the past n seconds, then one might =
assume the device can handle another 500 sessions.&nbsp; Thus, the SCE =
might be set to 500.&nbsp; However, this value is subject to change =
every time resources are measured.&nbsp; There are also &#8220;edge =
cases&#8221; where the current number of sessions and the CPU is at =
10%.&nbsp; In such cases where arithmetic would not yield a reasonable =
number, then the device would need to assume a reasonable value (perhaps =
based on lab measurements during development).&nbsp; I would personally =
measure each important resource type and calculate a possible SCE and =
then take the minimum of those SCE values.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>So, the value is not a ratio, but an estimate of the available =
capacity.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Now, looking at the peers to an SBC, what we see are multiple SCE =
values advertised, such as (a) 400, (b) 600, (c) 800, and (d) =
1000.&nbsp; This tells us that device D has the highest available =
capacity.&nbsp; We could look at those as &#8220;weights&#8221; and send =
a higher portion of traffic toward (d), but we do not.&nbsp; Our =
approach is to then round-robin across those devices so as to avoid =
overloading a device with too many SIP messages.&nbsp; After all, just =
because a device can handle more simultaneous calls does not mean that =
it has a higher message-handling capacity: this is why we would want to =
complement SCE with the current SOC work that is focused on message =
throttling.&nbsp; Having said that, nothing would require one to perform =
round-robin in SCE.&nbsp; The algorithm to select the peer given a set =
of SCE values was not described in our document (see Section 6 &#8211; =
we leave that open to implementation).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Paul<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowt=
ext'>From:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowt=
ext'> Thierry Bessis [mailto:Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com] =
<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, March 11, 2011 11:41 AM<br><b>To:</b> Paul E. =
Jones<br><b>Cc:</b> dispatch@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [dispatch] =
SIP load balancing<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Paul, =
<br><br><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>The =
specific ways through which the SCE value is computed may vary by =
vendor, though the approach we have used is one where we calculate an =
estimate of the number of sessions a device can handle given the current =
number of sessions given current memory utilization.&nbsp; We then do =
the same for CPU and other system resources.&nbsp; We then take the =
minimum value of each and report that as the SCE value.&nbsp; As a =
matter of course, our devices are constantly measuring these resources, =
so computing the SCE if trivial.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>So this mode of operation is very similar to what we =
also propose. Is that number a ratio (percentage of sessions available =
over the total number), or an absolute number ? If this is a ratio, then =
SCE and our load balancing are compatible: the same information and =
transport mechanism could be used for both: A single IETF proposal could =
be done. <br><br>Cordially, <br><br>Thierry <span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></body></html>
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Hi Henry,

I'll make just a few comments on this discussion thread, as I don't think
it's a productive discussion on this mailing list - likely it would be
better on the ietf-discussion list or you might want to approach someone on
the IAB about this topic, since the IAB is the responsible party in
establishing and appointing liaisons.

However, as far as the 3gpp specs that are all online, fairly up-to-date as
best as I can tell:
http://www.3gpp.org/-specifications-

As you puruse the specs, you will find that 3gpp uses a number of the specs
in the exact same manner as do "e2e" implementations.  So, I don't think the
situation is as dire as it might appear.  We can debate this topic ad
naseum, but IMS is what it is and is being deployed and nothing any of us
say or think here will change that.  The reality is that a large number of
contributors to the e2e specs are here because the folks that pay them to
contribute to the IETF make money selling those systems.  I will also note
that folks that aren't interested in IMS can use your document that was
published as a baseline "e2e" SIP implementation:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5638

There is also a spreadsheet of IETF dependencies that is regularly updated
and it includes references to the specs that depend upon core IETF RFCs:
http://www.3gpp.org/-IETF-Dependencies-and-Priorities-

I will note that summaries of issues and actions related to the RAI area
documents has been posted on the RAI area mailing list in the past:
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rai/current/msg00955.html
So, I think there has been a reasonable amount of transparency with regards
to this working relationship. Since this relationship between 3GPP and IETF
has been in place, there have been a number of documents that have been
approved and in general it has been a fruitful relationship on both parts.
 In some cases, core changes were made to SIP that benefited both the e2e
model and the walled garden.

Regards,
Mary.

On Fri, Mar 11, 2011 at 11:28 AM, Henry Sinnreich <henry.sinnreich@gmail.com
> wrote:

> Hi Andrew, Christer,
>
> >> My understanding also is that IETF nearly a decade ago agreed to
> >> cooperate with 3GPP (and other standards bodies) in developing and
> >> enhancing internet protocols
>
> 3GPP etc. documents are best served by having them online, up-to-date, on
> their respective web sites, where they can be searched and studied.
> Using IETF RFCs for this seems rather odd, and certainly less effective.
>
> >some people in IETF suddently thinks there are more "fun and sexy" stuff
> to
> >work on than SIP...
>
> As mentioned, after 100's of SIP RFCs and I-Ds over 12+ years, almost all
> SIP apps are telephony features, while 100,000s of apps are all using HTML,
> some of them to communicate in new ways - quite different from the SIP
> telephone call signaling models. RTC-Web may or may not be based on SIP
> signaling _alone_ , if at all. Communication models and user habits have
> changed very much (and are still changing) since SIP has been defined.
>
> Don't you think we have a problem here?
> If yes, wouldn't listening to the IETF technical plenary presentation on
> the
> future of applications be a good start to address the challenge for SIP
> applications?
>
> What do you think?
>
> Henry
>
>
> On 3/11/11 12:57 AM, "Christer Holmberg" <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > I agree with Andrew.
> >
> > People have invested, and are investing, lots of resources into SIP based
> > systems. They are not suddently going to throw everything away just
> because
> > some people in IETF suddently thinks there are more "fun and sexy" stuff
> to
> > work on than SIP...
> >
> > Also, regarding the agreement between IETF and 3GPP, if people have
> issues
> > with that agreement I don't think that people who are working based on
> that
> > agreement should have to suffer.
> >
> > Instead, people having issues with the agreement should bring those
> issues to
> > a more appropriate instance.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Christer
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: dispatch-bounces@ietf.org
> >> [mailto:dispatch-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Allen
> >> Sent: 11. maaliskuuta 2011 0:04
> >> To: Henry Sinnreich; tanakai@nttdocomo.co.jp; dispatch@ietf.org
> >> Subject: Re: [dispatch]
> >> Revisionofdraft-allen-dispatch-imei-urn-as-instanceid
> >>
> >> Hi Henry,
> >>
> >> I think then that it's a fair summary of your email to say
> >> that your objections are of a political and philosophical
> >> nature related to your view of what constitutes the internet
> >> and whether the IETF should be involved in enhancing IETF
> >> protocols for stakeholders that utilize those IETF protocols
> >> for deployments that some in the community might not consider
> >> "the Internet" or "the pure Internet" or the "open e2e
> >> Internet" rather than technical issues with the contents of
> >> the drafts.
> >>
> >> While I don't want to start a general debate on what is "the Internet"
> >> here I will state that in my view it's very difficult to
> >> exclude any particular stakeholders and their deployments of
> >> IETF protocols from being part of the Internet when those
> >> stakeholders are in many cases the very same established
> >> telecommunications companies or ISPs that the vast majority
> >> of the population in most countries use to obtain access to
> >> the Internet.
> >>
> >> My understanding also is that IETF nearly a decade ago agreed
> >> to cooperate with 3GPP (and other standards bodies) in
> >> developing and enhancing internet protocols and that IETF
> >> specifically requested (more like insisted) that any
> >> extensions or enhancements to IETF protocols required by 3GPP
> >> be done within IETF according to the procedures defined by
> >> IETF for enhancing IETF protocols and for registering namespaces etc.
> >> These drafts simply comply with that agreed way of working
> >> between IETF and 3GPP. To my knowledge this working agreement
> >> is still in effect. I don't think it is the role of the
> >> dispatch WG to determine which applications or deployments of
> >> SIP to support or cooperate with counter to agreements
> >> previously made at IESG level.
> >>
> >> Refusing cooperation based on what is considered not to be
> >> part of the "open e2e Internet" is only likely to set up two
> >> (or more) competing versions of the Internet resulting in the
> >> 21st century equivalent of the standard rail gauge vs broad
> >> rail gauge communications interoperability issue from the
> >> 19th century - effectively killing the goal of an open e2e
> >> internet! As Dale indicated what is considered a walled
> >> garden today may not be walled in the future (if I remember
> >> some very significant walls came tumbling down during just
> >> the last decade of the 20th century alone).
> >>
> >> Different business models will be resolved through the market
> >> not by creating competing incompatible technical solutions.
> >>
> >> In terms of the time used on discussion within dispatch I
> >> don't think there is a need for much more discussion in
> >> dispatch. These drafts could go ahead as AD sponsored without
> >> further WG involvement. As I understand it the IMEI URN
> >> definition draft did not as part of the URN registration
> >> process need to even be discussed in dispatch at all
> >> (although Dale Worley's review was invaluable in improving
> >> the draft technically) as the NIDs list was the fora for this
> >> discussion and where previous versions of that draft were discussed.
> >>
> >> It should be noted all we are talking about with regard to
> >> these drafts is the registration of a URN namespace and
> >> definition of its usage as an Instance ID as required by RFC
> >> 5626. If we can't agree that then what future extensions can we agree?
> >>
> >> Andrew
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Henry Sinnreich [mailto:henry.sinnreich@gmail.com]
> >> Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2011 11:03 AM
> >> To: Andrew Allen; tanakai@nttdocomo.co.jp; dispatch@ietf.org
> >> Subject: Re: [dispatch]
> >> Revisionofdraft-allen-dispatch-imei-urn-as-instanceid
> >>
> >> Hi Andrew,
> >>
> >> I have generic objections to see the publication of yet
> >> another informational RFC about practices in consortiums of
> >> closed networks in the IETF, for the following reasons:
> >>
> >> * Using the RFC process as a publishing venue for
> >> organizations that don't explicitly do that in support of the
> >> open e2e Internet.
> >>
> >> * The resources of the IETF are not unlimited, meeting time
> >> and email time to discuss is scarce and the IETF registries
> >> are just not scalable enough to support registrations for all
> >> the extensions that benefit countless external organizations
> >> and companies that deploy Internet technology.
> >> New business plans and the required extensions pop up in an
> >> endless fashion.
> >> Big organizations such as you mention have their own
> >> resources to publish their internal technical documents and
> >> white papers if they desire to do so.
> >>
> >> Members of outside organizations are certainly doing
> >> everybody a good service by informing via email of new
> >> standards/extensions in other organization, such as you have
> >> done below, but such information need not overload the
> >> Internet RFC process nor overload the Internet registries.
> >>
> >> * Hard for SIP developers and right out impossible for
> >> application developers.
> >> Though SIP works fine indeed across the world; SIPit and the
> >> SIP Forum take care of unavoidable problems still encountered
> >> by operators, arguably increasing SIP complexity for
> >> non-Internet purposes is not a good idea, even if new SIP
> >> extensions are labeled as just "informational". It makes it
> >> even more difficult for new developers entering the field to
> >> ever understand, let alone write code for some or all that
> >> has been published already about SIP for example. Checking
> >> right now there are 197 RFCs matching SIP and 78 I-Ds found
> >> by the RFC search engine.
> >>
> >> It is time to leave SIP alone and move on to other critical
> >> areas for the Internet, such as for example the future of
> >> applications that will be discussed in the next IETF
> >> technical plenary on Monday, March 28.
> >>
> >> With this in mind, I would rather not go into discussing your
> >> I-D in detail, though at first glance it seems technically
> >> correct and if it were discussed on the list, may indeed
> >> technically qualify as an informational RFC - just what I am
> >> arguing against.
> >>
> >> These are all personal opinions. The chairs and ADs may or
> >> may not discuss or agree/disagree with. Your I-D is just a
> >> good opportunity to raise these issues.
> >>
> >> Note that I am not suggesting any voting on your I-D, if it
> >> will be discussed, since for various reasons, the majority of
> >> folks attending the DISPATCH WG are from various outside
> >> organizations with business plans that may or may not fully
> >> embrace the open e2e Internet; a perfect legitimate choice
> >> for them, but not  in the IETF (I just can't remember when
> >> ever there was a vote against any new I-D for SIP, since no
> >> cost was perceived by those voting).
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> Henry
> >>
> >>
> >> On 3/9/11 5:45 PM, "Andrew Allen" <aallen@rim.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Henry
> >>>
> >>> Would you care to elaborate and explain your specific concerns?  How
> >> is what
> >>> is defined in these drafts potentially incompatible with
> >> the open, e2e
> >>> architectural and in any other way technical conflict with the
> >> Internet?
> >>>
> >>> The two drafts do the following things:
> >>>
> >>> One draft simply defines and registers with IANA a URN namespace
> >> according to
> >>> the procedures defined for doing that.
> >>>
> >>> The other draft simply defines how this URN can be used as
> >> an instance
> >> ID as
> >>> required by RFC 5626.
> >>>
> >>> SIP and the mechanisms in RFC 5626 are already being used
> >> in networks
> >> defined
> >>> by 3GPP and are being deployed by members of the GSMA. 3GPP and GSMA
> >> have
> >>> already defined this behavior using their existing device
> >> Identifiers
> >> for
> >>> instance ID generation in their specifications. These
> >> drafts complete
> >> the
> >>> process doing things the right way by reserving the namespace and
> >> defining the
> >>> usage of it using the IETF defined mechanisms for doing that.
> >>>
> >>> Andrew
> >>>
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: Henry Sinnreich [mailto:henry.sinnreich@gmail.com]
> >>> Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 03:10 PM
> >>> To: Itsuma TANAKA <tanakai@nttdocomo.co.jp>; dispatch@ietf.org
> >>> <dispatch@ietf.org>
> >>> Subject: Re: [dispatch]
> >> Revisionofdraft-allen-dispatch-imei-urn-as-instanceid
> >>>
> >>> Such work in the IETF would require IMO an explanation about its
> >>> compatibility with the open, e2e architectural and other technical
> >>> principles of the Internet. It actually seems to be the opposite.
> >>>
> >>> For this reason, such work may be better accomplished in other
> >>> organizations, so as to avoid architectural principle and other
> >> technical
> >>> conflicts. Simplicity and scalability comes to mind among other,
> >> though this
> >>> is better discussed elsewhere.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks,
> >>>
> >>> Henry Sinnreich
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 3/9/11 8:54 AM, "Itsuma TANAKA" <tanakai@nttdocomo.co.jp> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Dear All,
> >>>>
> >>>> I work for NTT DOCOMO, Inc in Japan. and attend various
> >> 3GPP meetings
> >> (SA2,
> >>>> CT1, CT4, and CT3) and GSM Association (GSMA) Interworking, Roaming
> >> Expert
> >>>> Group (IREG), Roaming in LTE (RILTE) and Packet subgroup
> >> meetings.  I
> >> serve
> >>>> as a Vice Chair of GSMA IREG RILTE and Packet subgroups.
> >>>>
> >>>> I would like to express my support of
> >> draft-montemurro-gsma-imei-urn
> >> and the
> >>>> associated draft-allen-dispatch-imei-urn-as-instanceid.
> >>>>
> >>>> The reasons are exactly same as what Ricky Kaura (Samsung)
> >> expressed.
> >> A
> >>>> various 3GPP specifications (IMS Registration in 3GPP
> >> TS24.229, IMS
> >>>> emergency calls in TS23.237 and TS24.237, ICS in TS23.292 and
> >> TS24.292), and
> >>>> GSMA document (GSMA PRD IR.92, "IMS Profile for Voice and SMS") are
> >> using
> >>>> these drafts.
> >>>>
> >>>> These internet drafts are very important to support various key
> >> features in
> >>>> 3GPP and to enable GSMA Voice over LTE.  Therefore, I kindly would
> >> like ask
> >>>> that this work is progressed as quickly as possible in IETF.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Best regards,
> >>>>
> >>>> Itsuma Tanaka
> >>>> NTT DOCOMO
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> dispatch mailing list
> >>>> dispatch@ietf.org
> >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> dispatch mailing list
> >>> dispatch@ietf.org
> >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
> >>>
> >>>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> This transmission (including any attachments) may contain
> >> confidential
> >>> information, privileged material (including material
> >> protected by the
> >>> solicitor-client or other applicable privileges), or constitute
> >> non-public
> >>> information. Any use of this information by anyone other than the
> >> intended
> >>> recipient is prohibited. If you have received this transmission in
> >> error,
> >>> please immediately reply to the sender and delete this information
> >> from your
> >>> system. Use, dissemination, distribution, or reproduction of this
> >> transmission
> >>> by unintended recipients is not authorized and may be unlawful.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> This transmission (including any attachments) may contain
> >> confidential information, privileged material (including
> >> material protected by the solicitor-client or other
> >> applicable privileges), or constitute non-public information.
> >> Any use of this information by anyone other than the intended
> >> recipient is prohibited. If you have received this
> >> transmission in error, please immediately reply to the sender
> >> and delete this information from your system. Use,
> >> dissemination, distribution, or reproduction of this
> >> transmission by unintended recipients is not authorized and
> >> may be unlawful.
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> dispatch mailing list
> >> dispatch@ietf.org
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
> >>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> dispatch mailing list
> dispatch@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
>

--20cf307d03bae0a559049e39f385
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Henry,=A0<div><br></div><div>I&#39;ll make just a few comments on this d=
iscussion thread, as I don&#39;t think it&#39;s a productive discussion on =
this mailing list - likely it would be better on the ietf-discussion list o=
r you might want to approach someone on the IAB about this topic, since the=
 IAB is the responsible party in establishing and appointing liaisons.=A0</=
div>

<div><br></div><div>However, as far as the 3gpp specs that are all online, =
fairly up-to-date as best as I can tell:</div><div><a href=3D"http://www.3g=
pp.org/-specifications-" target=3D"_blank">http://www.3gpp.org/-specificati=
ons-</a></div>
<div>
<br></div><div>As you puruse the specs, you will find that 3gpp uses a numb=
er of the specs in the exact same manner as do &quot;e2e&quot; implementati=
ons. =A0So, I don&#39;t think the situation is as dire as it might appear. =
=A0We can debate this topic ad naseum, but IMS is what it is and is being d=
eployed and nothing any of us say or think here will change that. =A0The re=
ality is that a large number of contributors to the e2e specs are here beca=
use the folks that pay them to contribute to the IETF make money selling th=
ose systems. =A0I will also note that folks that aren&#39;t interested in I=
MS can use your document that was published as a baseline &quot;e2e&quot; S=
IP implementation:=A0<a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5638">http://=
tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5638</a></div>

<div><br></div><div>There is also a spreadsheet of IETF dependencies that i=
s regularly updated and it includes references to the specs that depend upo=
n core IETF RFCs:</div><div><a href=3D"http://www.3gpp.org/-IETF-Dependenci=
es-and-Priorities-" target=3D"_blank">http://www.3gpp.org/-IETF-Dependencie=
s-and-Priorities-</a></div>

<div><br></div><div>I will note that summaries of issues and actions relate=
d to the RAI area documents has been posted on the RAI area mailing list in=
 the past:</div><div><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rai/cu=
rrent/msg00955.html">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rai/current/msg00=
955.html</a></div>
<div>So, I think there has been a reasonable amount of transparency with re=
gards to this working relationship. Since this relationship between 3GPP an=
d IETF has been in place, there have been a number of documents that have b=
een approved and in general it has been a fruitful relationship on both par=
ts. =A0In some cases, core changes were made to SIP that benefited both the=
 e2e model and the walled garden. =A0</div>
<div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Mary.=A0<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_=
quote">
On Fri, Mar 11, 2011 at 11:28 AM, Henry Sinnreich <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henry.sinnreich@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">henry.sinnreich=
@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

Hi Andrew, Christer,<br>
<div><br>
&gt;&gt; My understanding also is that IETF nearly a decade ago agreed to<b=
r>
&gt;&gt; cooperate with 3GPP (and other standards bodies) in developing and=
<br>
&gt;&gt; enhancing internet protocols<br>
<br>
</div>3GPP etc. documents are best served by having them online, up-to-date=
, on<br>
their respective web sites, where they can be searched and studied.<br>
Using IETF RFCs for this seems rather odd, and certainly less effective.<br=
>
<div><br>
&gt;some people in IETF suddently thinks there are more &quot;fun and sexy&=
quot; stuff to<br>
&gt;work on than SIP...<br>
<br>
</div>As mentioned, after 100&#39;s of SIP RFCs and I-Ds over 12+ years, al=
most all<br>
SIP apps are telephony features, while 100,000s of apps are all using HTML,=
<br>
some of them to communicate in new ways - quite different from the SIP<br>
telephone call signaling models. RTC-Web may or may not be based on SIP<br>
signaling _alone_ , if at all. Communication models and user habits have<br=
>
changed very much (and are still changing) since SIP has been defined.<br>
<br>
Don&#39;t you think we have a problem here?<br>
If yes, wouldn&#39;t listening to the IETF technical plenary presentation o=
n the<br>
future of applications be a good start to address the challenge for SIP<br>
applications?<br>
<br>
What do you think?<br>
<br>
Henry<br>
<br>
<br>
On 3/11/11 12:57 AM, &quot;Christer Holmberg&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ch=
rister.holmberg@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">christer.holmberg@ericsson.=
com</a>&gt;<br>
wrote:<br>
<div><div></div><div><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Hi,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I agree with Andrew.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; People have invested, and are investing, lots of resources into SIP ba=
sed<br>
&gt; systems. They are not suddently going to throw everything away just be=
cause<br>
&gt; some people in IETF suddently thinks there are more &quot;fun and sexy=
&quot; stuff to<br>
&gt; work on than SIP...<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Also, regarding the agreement between IETF and 3GPP, if people have is=
sues<br>
&gt; with that agreement I don&#39;t think that people who are working base=
d on that<br>
&gt; agreement should have to suffer.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Instead, people having issues with the agreement should bring those is=
sues to<br>
&gt; a more appropriate instance.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Regards,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Christer<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt;&gt; From: <a href=3D"mailto:dispatch-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blan=
k">dispatch-bounces@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt;&gt; [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dispatch-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_bl=
ank">dispatch-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Andrew Allen<br>
&gt;&gt; Sent: 11. maaliskuuta 2011 0:04<br>
&gt;&gt; To: Henry Sinnreich; <a href=3D"mailto:tanakai@nttdocomo.co.jp" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">tanakai@nttdocomo.co.jp</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:dispatch@iet=
f.org" target=3D"_blank">dispatch@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt;&gt; Subject: Re: [dispatch]<br>
&gt;&gt; Revisionofdraft-allen-dispatch-imei-urn-as-instanceid<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Hi Henry,<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; I think then that it&#39;s a fair summary of your email to say<br>
&gt;&gt; that your objections are of a political and philosophical<br>
&gt;&gt; nature related to your view of what constitutes the internet<br>
&gt;&gt; and whether the IETF should be involved in enhancing IETF<br>
&gt;&gt; protocols for stakeholders that utilize those IETF protocols<br>
&gt;&gt; for deployments that some in the community might not consider<br>
&gt;&gt; &quot;the Internet&quot; or &quot;the pure Internet&quot; or the &=
quot;open e2e<br>
&gt;&gt; Internet&quot; rather than technical issues with the contents of<b=
r>
&gt;&gt; the drafts.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; While I don&#39;t want to start a general debate on what is &quot;=
the Internet&quot;<br>
&gt;&gt; here I will state that in my view it&#39;s very difficult to<br>
&gt;&gt; exclude any particular stakeholders and their deployments of<br>
&gt;&gt; IETF protocols from being part of the Internet when those<br>
&gt;&gt; stakeholders are in many cases the very same established<br>
&gt;&gt; telecommunications companies or ISPs that the vast majority<br>
&gt;&gt; of the population in most countries use to obtain access to<br>
&gt;&gt; the Internet.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; My understanding also is that IETF nearly a decade ago agreed<br>
&gt;&gt; to cooperate with 3GPP (and other standards bodies) in<br>
&gt;&gt; developing and enhancing internet protocols and that IETF<br>
&gt;&gt; specifically requested (more like insisted) that any<br>
&gt;&gt; extensions or enhancements to IETF protocols required by 3GPP<br>
&gt;&gt; be done within IETF according to the procedures defined by<br>
&gt;&gt; IETF for enhancing IETF protocols and for registering namespaces e=
tc.<br>
&gt;&gt; These drafts simply comply with that agreed way of working<br>
&gt;&gt; between IETF and 3GPP. To my knowledge this working agreement<br>
&gt;&gt; is still in effect. I don&#39;t think it is the role of the<br>
&gt;&gt; dispatch WG to determine which applications or deployments of<br>
&gt;&gt; SIP to support or cooperate with counter to agreements<br>
&gt;&gt; previously made at IESG level.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Refusing cooperation based on what is considered not to be<br>
&gt;&gt; part of the &quot;open e2e Internet&quot; is only likely to set up=
 two<br>
&gt;&gt; (or more) competing versions of the Internet resulting in the<br>
&gt;&gt; 21st century equivalent of the standard rail gauge vs broad<br>
&gt;&gt; rail gauge communications interoperability issue from the<br>
&gt;&gt; 19th century - effectively killing the goal of an open e2e<br>
&gt;&gt; internet! As Dale indicated what is considered a walled<br>
&gt;&gt; garden today may not be walled in the future (if I remember<br>
&gt;&gt; some very significant walls came tumbling down during just<br>
&gt;&gt; the last decade of the 20th century alone).<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Different business models will be resolved through the market<br>
&gt;&gt; not by creating competing incompatible technical solutions.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; In terms of the time used on discussion within dispatch I<br>
&gt;&gt; don&#39;t think there is a need for much more discussion in<br>
&gt;&gt; dispatch. These drafts could go ahead as AD sponsored without<br>
&gt;&gt; further WG involvement. As I understand it the IMEI URN<br>
&gt;&gt; definition draft did not as part of the URN registration<br>
&gt;&gt; process need to even be discussed in dispatch at all<br>
&gt;&gt; (although Dale Worley&#39;s review was invaluable in improving<br>
&gt;&gt; the draft technically) as the NIDs list was the fora for this<br>
&gt;&gt; discussion and where previous versions of that draft were discusse=
d.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; It should be noted all we are talking about with regard to<br>
&gt;&gt; these drafts is the registration of a URN namespace and<br>
&gt;&gt; definition of its usage as an Instance ID as required by RFC<br>
&gt;&gt; 5626. If we can&#39;t agree that then what future extensions can w=
e agree?<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Andrew<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt;&gt; From: Henry Sinnreich [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:henry.sinnreich@gm=
ail.com" target=3D"_blank">henry.sinnreich@gmail.com</a>]<br>
&gt;&gt; Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2011 11:03 AM<br>
&gt;&gt; To: Andrew Allen; <a href=3D"mailto:tanakai@nttdocomo.co.jp" targe=
t=3D"_blank">tanakai@nttdocomo.co.jp</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:dispatch@ietf.o=
rg" target=3D"_blank">dispatch@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt;&gt; Subject: Re: [dispatch]<br>
&gt;&gt; Revisionofdraft-allen-dispatch-imei-urn-as-instanceid<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Hi Andrew,<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; I have generic objections to see the publication of yet<br>
&gt;&gt; another informational RFC about practices in consortiums of<br>
&gt;&gt; closed networks in the IETF, for the following reasons:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; * Using the RFC process as a publishing venue for<br>
&gt;&gt; organizations that don&#39;t explicitly do that in support of the<=
br>
&gt;&gt; open e2e Internet.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; * The resources of the IETF are not unlimited, meeting time<br>
&gt;&gt; and email time to discuss is scarce and the IETF registries<br>
&gt;&gt; are just not scalable enough to support registrations for all<br>
&gt;&gt; the extensions that benefit countless external organizations<br>
&gt;&gt; and companies that deploy Internet technology.<br>
&gt;&gt; New business plans and the required extensions pop up in an<br>
&gt;&gt; endless fashion.<br>
&gt;&gt; Big organizations such as you mention have their own<br>
&gt;&gt; resources to publish their internal technical documents and<br>
&gt;&gt; white papers if they desire to do so.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Members of outside organizations are certainly doing<br>
&gt;&gt; everybody a good service by informing via email of new<br>
&gt;&gt; standards/extensions in other organization, such as you have<br>
&gt;&gt; done below, but such information need not overload the<br>
&gt;&gt; Internet RFC process nor overload the Internet registries.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; * Hard for SIP developers and right out impossible for<br>
&gt;&gt; application developers.<br>
&gt;&gt; Though SIP works fine indeed across the world; SIPit and the<br>
&gt;&gt; SIP Forum take care of unavoidable problems still encountered<br>
&gt;&gt; by operators, arguably increasing SIP complexity for<br>
&gt;&gt; non-Internet purposes is not a good idea, even if new SIP<br>
&gt;&gt; extensions are labeled as just &quot;informational&quot;. It makes=
 it<br>
&gt;&gt; even more difficult for new developers entering the field to<br>
&gt;&gt; ever understand, let alone write code for some or all that<br>
&gt;&gt; has been published already about SIP for example. Checking<br>
&gt;&gt; right now there are 197 RFCs matching SIP and 78 I-Ds found<br>
&gt;&gt; by the RFC search engine.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; It is time to leave SIP alone and move on to other critical<br>
&gt;&gt; areas for the Internet, such as for example the future of<br>
&gt;&gt; applications that will be discussed in the next IETF<br>
&gt;&gt; technical plenary on Monday, March 28.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; With this in mind, I would rather not go into discussing your<br>
&gt;&gt; I-D in detail, though at first glance it seems technically<br>
&gt;&gt; correct and if it were discussed on the list, may indeed<br>
&gt;&gt; technically qualify as an informational RFC - just what I am<br>
&gt;&gt; arguing against.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; These are all personal opinions. The chairs and ADs may or<br>
&gt;&gt; may not discuss or agree/disagree with. Your I-D is just a<br>
&gt;&gt; good opportunity to raise these issues.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Note that I am not suggesting any voting on your I-D, if it<br>
&gt;&gt; will be discussed, since for various reasons, the majority of<br>
&gt;&gt; folks attending the DISPATCH WG are from various outside<br>
&gt;&gt; organizations with business plans that may or may not fully<br>
&gt;&gt; embrace the open e2e Internet; a perfect legitimate choice<br>
&gt;&gt; for them, but not =A0in the IETF (I just can&#39;t remember when<b=
r>
&gt;&gt; ever there was a vote against any new I-D for SIP, since no<br>
&gt;&gt; cost was perceived by those voting).<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Thanks,<br>
&gt;&gt; Henry<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; On 3/9/11 5:45 PM, &quot;Andrew Allen&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
aallen@rim.com" target=3D"_blank">aallen@rim.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Henry<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Would you care to elaborate and explain your specific concerns=
? =A0How<br>
&gt;&gt; is what<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; is defined in these drafts potentially incompatible with<br>
&gt;&gt; the open, e2e<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; architectural and in any other way technical conflict with the=
<br>
&gt;&gt; Internet?<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; The two drafts do the following things:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; One draft simply defines and registers with IANA a URN namespa=
ce<br>
&gt;&gt; according to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; the procedures defined for doing that.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; The other draft simply defines how this URN can be used as<br>
&gt;&gt; an instance<br>
&gt;&gt; ID as<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; required by RFC 5626.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; SIP and the mechanisms in RFC 5626 are already being used<br>
&gt;&gt; in networks<br>
&gt;&gt; defined<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; by 3GPP and are being deployed by members of the GSMA. 3GPP an=
d GSMA<br>
&gt;&gt; have<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; already defined this behavior using their existing device<br>
&gt;&gt; Identifiers<br>
&gt;&gt; for<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; instance ID generation in their specifications. These<br>
&gt;&gt; drafts complete<br>
&gt;&gt; the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; process doing things the right way by reserving the namespace =
and<br>
&gt;&gt; defining the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; usage of it using the IETF defined mechanisms for doing that.<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Andrew<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; ----- Original Message -----<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; From: Henry Sinnreich [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:henry.sinnreic=
h@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">henry.sinnreich@gmail.com</a>]<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 03:10 PM<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; To: Itsuma TANAKA &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tanakai@nttdocomo.co.j=
p" target=3D"_blank">tanakai@nttdocomo.co.jp</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:dis=
patch@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">dispatch@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dispatch@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">dis=
patch@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Subject: Re: [dispatch]<br>
&gt;&gt; Revisionofdraft-allen-dispatch-imei-urn-as-instanceid<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Such work in the IETF would require IMO an explanation about i=
ts<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; compatibility with the open, e2e architectural and other techn=
ical<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; principles of the Internet. It actually seems to be the opposi=
te.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; For this reason, such work may be better accomplished in other=
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; organizations, so as to avoid architectural principle and othe=
r<br>
&gt;&gt; technical<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; conflicts. Simplicity and scalability comes to mind among othe=
r,<br>
&gt;&gt; though this<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; is better discussed elsewhere.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Thanks,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Henry Sinnreich<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; On 3/9/11 8:54 AM, &quot;Itsuma TANAKA&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:tanakai@nttdocomo.co.jp" target=3D"_blank">tanakai@nttdocomo.co.jp</a>=
&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Dear All,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I work for NTT DOCOMO, Inc in Japan. and attend various<br=
>
&gt;&gt; 3GPP meetings<br>
&gt;&gt; (SA2,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; CT1, CT4, and CT3) and GSM Association (GSMA) Interworking=
, Roaming<br>
&gt;&gt; Expert<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Group (IREG), Roaming in LTE (RILTE) and Packet subgroup<b=
r>
&gt;&gt; meetings. =A0I<br>
&gt;&gt; serve<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; as a Vice Chair of GSMA IREG RILTE and Packet subgroups.<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I would like to express my support of<br>
&gt;&gt; draft-montemurro-gsma-imei-urn<br>
&gt;&gt; and the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; associated draft-allen-dispatch-imei-urn-as-instanceid.<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; The reasons are exactly same as what Ricky Kaura (Samsung)=
<br>
&gt;&gt; expressed.<br>
&gt;&gt; A<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; various 3GPP specifications (IMS Registration in 3GPP<br>
&gt;&gt; TS24.229, IMS<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; emergency calls in TS23.237 and TS24.237, ICS in TS23.292 =
and<br>
&gt;&gt; TS24.292), and<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; GSMA document (GSMA PRD IR.92, &quot;IMS Profile for Voice=
 and SMS&quot;) are<br>
&gt;&gt; using<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; these drafts.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; These internet drafts are very important to support variou=
s key<br>
&gt;&gt; features in<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; 3GPP and to enable GSMA Voice over LTE. =A0Therefore, I ki=
ndly would<br>
&gt;&gt; like ask<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; that this work is progressed as quickly as possible in IET=
F.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Best regards,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Itsuma Tanaka<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; NTT DOCOMO<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; dispatch mailing list<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:dispatch@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">dis=
patch@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch"=
 target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; dispatch mailing list<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:dispatch@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">dispatc=
h@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch" tar=
get=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; ------------------------------------------------------------------=
---<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; This transmission (including any attachments) may contain<br>
&gt;&gt; confidential<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; information, privileged material (including material<br>
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&gt;&gt; dispatch mailing list<br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:dispatch@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">dispatch@ie=
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&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch" target=
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<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
dispatch mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:dispatch@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">dispatch@ietf.org</a=
><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch" target=3D"_blank=
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Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 14:45:17 -0600
From: Henry Sinnreich <henry.sinnreich@gmail.com>
To: Mary Barnes <mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com>
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Thanks Mary!

The same actually came to my mind as well.

Henry


On 3/11/11 1:27 PM, "Mary Barnes" <mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Henry,=A0
>=20
> I'll make just a few comments on this discussion thread, as I don't think=
 it's
> a productive discussion on this mailing list - likely it would be better =
on
> the ietf-discussion list or you might want to approach someone on the IAB
> about this topic, since the IAB is the responsible party in establis


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<FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:13pt=
'>Thanks Mary!<BR>
<BR>
The same actually came to my mind as well.<BR>
<BR>
Henry<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
On 3/11/11 1:27 PM, &quot;Mary Barnes&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mary.ietf.barnes@g=
mail.com">mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<BR>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><=
SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:13pt'>Hi Henry,=A0<BR>
<BR>
I'll make just a few comments on this discussion thread, as I don't think i=
t's a productive discussion on this mailing list - likely it would be better=
 on the ietf-discussion list or you might want to approach someone on the IA=
B about this topic, since the IAB is the responsible party in establis<BR>
</SPAN></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
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Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing
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Paul,

I understand. It seems that the SCE feedback would be as dynamic as the 
it is in the load balancing.
I also agree that SCE could be used to do some load balancing based on 
the available sessions left on each node.

However SCE is using the weight as a representation of the number of 
available sessions, while load balancing is using the weight as an 
utilization ratio. The requirement we used for our load balancing 
requirement is based on the need to balance the utilization ratio on 
each node, (we think the system resists better and longer to 
near-overload situations this way) so the utilization rate must be 
available. In addition to provide what we need, such weight is very 
straightforward to calculate (it's actually more like a measurement): We 
do not have to come up with any assumption, rules or simulations to 
figure out how resources translate to sessions. Another thing is that 
the selection algorithm can be the same as with SRV: Very easy and cheap 
to implement, and still providing continuous load sharing. Also the load 
balancing works great with OLC, but independently: Both algorithm 
operate independently in a serial arrangement (First selection, then 
shedding), and there is no need for a re-selection when the request is 
shed, since the cluster is supposed to be balanced. Here again, the 
implementation can remain modular and very simple.

I agree that SCE can provide similar results, but you need to come up 
with remaining sessions. I agree we could do load distribution, but only 
based on remaining sessions (this probably would also work great, but we 
think load distribution based on utilization rate is better in our case, 
and we know it works). Finally, I think with SCE the algorithm to select 
the final destination when OLC is also used would be more complex.

So I think that the weight should represent the relative occupation of 
the node for those reasons. However we could add an option to provide 
also (or instead) an estimation of the number of sessions available, so 
that those who prefer to distribute based on that instead could do it.
We also did provide for more than one "variant" with OLC ...

Cordially,

Thierry





On 11-Mar-2011 12:32, Paul E. Jones wrote:
>
> Thierry,
>
> The SCE value is en estimate of the number of sessions the device can 
> handle given the current number of sessions giving respect to the 
> current resource utilization.  If there are 500 sessions, for example, 
> and the CPU is at 50% over the past n seconds, then one might assume 
> the device can handle another 500 sessions.  Thus, the SCE might be 
> set to 500.  However, this value is subject to change every time 
> resources are measured.  There are also "edge cases" where the current 
> number of sessions and the CPU is at 10%.  In such cases where 
> arithmetic would not yield a reasonable number, then the device would 
> need to assume a reasonable value (perhaps based on lab measurements 
> during development).  I would personally measure each important 
> resource type and calculate a possible SCE and then take the minimum 
> of those SCE values.
>
> So, the value is not a ratio, but an estimate of the available capacity.
>
> Now, looking at the peers to an SBC, what we see are multiple SCE 
> values advertised, such as (a) 400, (b) 600, (c) 800, and (d) 1000.  
> This tells us that device D has the highest available capacity.  We 
> could look at those as "weights" and send a higher portion of traffic 
> toward (d), but we do not.  Our approach is to then round-robin across 
> those devices so as to avoid overloading a device with too many SIP 
> messages.  After all, just because a device can handle more 
> simultaneous calls does not mean that it has a higher message-handling 
> capacity: this is why we would want to complement SCE with the current 
> SOC work that is focused on message throttling.  Having said that, 
> nothing would require one to perform round-robin in SCE.  The 
> algorithm to select the peer given a set of SCE values was not 
> described in our document (see Section 6 -- we leave that open to 
> implementation).
>
> Paul
>
> *From:*Thierry Bessis [mailto:Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com]
> *Sent:* Friday, March 11, 2011 11:41 AM
> *To:* Paul E. Jones
> *Cc:* dispatch@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing
>
> Paul,
>
> The specific ways through which the SCE value is computed may vary by 
> vendor, though the approach we have used is one where we calculate an 
> estimate of the number of sessions a device can handle given the 
> current number of sessions given current memory utilization.  We then 
> do the same for CPU and other system resources.  We then take the 
> minimum value of each and report that as the SCE value.  As a matter 
> of course, our devices are constantly measuring these resources, so 
> computing the SCE if trivial.
>
> So this mode of operation is very similar to what we also propose. Is 
> that number a ratio (percentage of sessions available over the total 
> number), or an absolute number ? If this is a ratio, then SCE and our 
> load balancing are compatible: the same information and transport 
> mechanism could be used for both: A single IETF proposal could be done.
>
> Cordially,
>
> Thierry
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> dispatch mailing list
> dispatch@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch

-- 
-- 
Cordially,
Thierry Bessis
IMS Solution: Architecture & Product Management - ALTA Member
   Organization: ALU > Carrier group > Wireline BU > **IMS Sol Arch, SE, PdM
Alcatel-Lucent
1960 Lucent Lane - Room 6L-517
   Naperville, IL  60563  U S
   Tel/Fax: +1 630 979 7989
   Corporate IM: tbessis    - Yahoo IM:     thierry_bessis

My WEB page:   http://ihgpweb.ih.lucent.com/~tbessis/
My Calendar:   www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=new_frs3175%40yahoo.fr
ALTA Hot Line: http://alta.all.alcatel-lucent.com/hotline

Conference information:
2801 2801 (US):+1 800 771 8734 - (F):+33 800 941 674 - Access Code: 9797989
others countries see: http://all.alcatel-lucent.com/audio

Upcoming planned Business Trip: 12 April - 14 April 2011
Upcoming planned Vacation: None

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    Paul, <br>
    <br>
    I understand. It seems that the SCE feedback would be as dynamic as
    the it is in the load balancing. <br>
    I also agree that SCE could be used to do some load balancing based
    on the available sessions left on each node. <br>
    <br>
    However SCE is using the weight as a representation of the number of
    available sessions, while load balancing is using the weight as an
    utilization ratio. The requirement we used for our load balancing
    requirement is based on the need to balance the utilization ratio on
    each node, (we think the system resists better and longer to
    near-overload situations this way) so the utilization rate must be
    available. In addition to provide what we need, such weight is very
    straightforward to calculate (it's actually more like a
    measurement): We do not have to come up with any assumption, rules
    or simulations to figure out how resources translate to sessions.
    Another thing is that the selection algorithm can be the same as
    with SRV: Very easy and cheap to implement, and still providing
    continuous load sharing. Also the load balancing works great with
    OLC, but independently: Both algorithm operate independently in a
    serial arrangement (First selection, then shedding), and there is no
    need for a re-selection when the request is shed, since the cluster
    is supposed to be balanced. Here again, the implementation can
    remain modular and very simple. <br>
    <br>
    I agree that SCE can provide similar results, but you need to come
    up with remaining sessions. I agree we could do load distribution,
    but only based on remaining sessions (this probably would also work
    great, but we think load distribution based on utilization rate is
    better in our case, and we know it works). Finally, I think with SCE
    the algorithm to select the final destination when OLC is also used
    would be more complex. <br>
    <br>
    So I think that the weight should represent the relative occupation
    of the node for those reasons. However we could add an option to
    provide also (or instead) an estimation of the number of sessions
    available, so that those who prefer to distribute based on that
    instead could do it. <br>
    We also did provide for more than one "variant" with OLC ... <br>
    <br>
    Cordially, <br>
    <br>
    Thierry<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    On 11-Mar-2011 12:32, Paul E. Jones wrote:
    <blockquote
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        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
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            73, 125);">Thierry,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
            &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31,
            73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
            &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31,
            73, 125);">The SCE value is en estimate of the number of
            sessions the device can handle given the current number of
            sessions giving respect to the current resource
            utilization.&nbsp; If there are 500 sessions, for example, and
            the CPU is at 50% over the past n seconds, then one might
            assume the device can handle another 500 sessions.&nbsp; Thus,
            the SCE might be set to 500.&nbsp; However, this value is subject
            to change every time resources are measured.&nbsp; There are also
            &#8220;edge cases&#8221; where the current number of sessions and the
            CPU is at 10%.&nbsp; In such cases where arithmetic would not
            yield a reasonable number, then the device would need to
            assume a reasonable value (perhaps based on lab measurements
            during development).&nbsp; I would personally measure each
            important resource type and calculate a possible SCE and
            then take the minimum of those SCE values.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
            &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31,
            73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
            &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31,
            73, 125);">So, the value is not a ratio, but an estimate of
            the available capacity.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
            &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31,
            73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
            &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31,
            73, 125);">Now, looking at the peers to an SBC, what we see
            are multiple SCE values advertised, such as (a) 400, (b)
            600, (c) 800, and (d) 1000.&nbsp; This tells us that device D has
            the highest available capacity.&nbsp; We could look at those as
            &#8220;weights&#8221; and send a higher portion of traffic toward (d),
            but we do not.&nbsp; Our approach is to then round-robin across
            those devices so as to avoid overloading a device with too
            many SIP messages.&nbsp; After all, just because a device can
            handle more simultaneous calls does not mean that it has a
            higher message-handling capacity: this is why we would want
            to complement SCE with the current SOC work that is focused
            on message throttling.&nbsp; Having said that, nothing would
            require one to perform round-robin in SCE.&nbsp; The algorithm to
            select the peer given a set of SCE values was not described
            in our document (see Section 6 &#8211; we leave that open to
            implementation).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
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        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
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            73, 125);">Paul<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
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              <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;
                    font-family:
                    &quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:
                    windowtext;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:
                  10pt; font-family:
                  &quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:
                  windowtext;"> Thierry Bessis
                  [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com">mailto:Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com</a>] <br>
                  <b>Sent:</b> Friday, March 11, 2011 11:41 AM<br>
                  <b>To:</b> Paul E. Jones<br>
                  <b>Cc:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dispatch@ietf.org">dispatch@ietf.org</a><br>
                  <b>Subject:</b> Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing<o:p></o:p></span></p>
            </div>
          </div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal">Paul, <br>
            <br>
            <o:p></o:p></p>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size: 11pt;
                font-family:
                &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;">The
                specific ways through which the SCE value is computed
                may vary by vendor, though the approach we have used is
                one where we calculate an estimate of the number of
                sessions a device can handle given the current number of
                sessions given current memory utilization.&nbsp; We then do
                the same for CPU and other system resources.&nbsp; We then
                take the minimum value of each and report that as the
                SCE value.&nbsp; As a matter of course, our devices are
                constantly measuring these resources, so computing the
                SCE if trivial.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">So this mode of operation is very similar
            to what we also propose. Is that number a ratio (percentage
            of sessions available over the total number), or an absolute
            number ? If this is a ratio, then SCE and our load balancing
            are compatible: the same information and transport mechanism
            could be used for both: A single IETF proposal could be
            done. <br>
            <br>
            Cordially, <br>
            <br>
            Thierry <span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
        </div>
      </div>
      <pre wrap="">
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--------------070600070400040400070609--

From pkyzivat@cisco.com  Fri Mar 11 16:36:54 2011
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Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing
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On 3/11/2011 7:22 PM, Thierry Bessis wrote:

...

> The requirement we used for our load balancing
> requirement is based on the need to balance the utilization ratio on
> each node

Ah!!! Finally I understand what you are up to!
It never made sense to me up till now.

	Thanks,
	Paul

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Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 11:31:51 -0500
From: Henry Sinnreich <henry.sinnreich@gmail.com>
To: Andrew Allen <aallen@rim.com>, <mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com>
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Hi Andrew,

Yes, chatting at the IETF would be interesting, though there is nothing
philosophical in the overwhelming hard numbers and trends in the market for
all industry segments driven by applications. And the Web platforms for
these applications.

Henry


On 3/12/11 5:53 PM, "Andrew Allen" <aallen@rim.com> wrote:

>=20
> Henry
>=20
> I think Mary has covered this all very well.
>=20
> I am happy to engage in further philosophical discussions on the future o=
f the
> Internet in Prague.
>=20
> Andrew
> =20
> From: Mary Barnes [mailto:mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com]
> Sent: Friday, March 11, 2011 01:27 PM
> To: Henry Sinnreich <henry.sinnreich@gmail.com>
> Cc: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>; Andrew Allen;
> tanakai@nttdocomo.co.jp <tanakai@nttdocomo.co.jp>; dispatch@ietf.org
> <dispatch@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [dispatch] Revisionofdraft-allen-dispatch-imei-urn-as-instan=
ceid
> =20
> Hi Henry,=A0
>=20
> I'll make just a few comments on this discussion thread, as I don't think=
 it's
> a productive discussion on this mailing list - likely it would be better =
on
> the ietf-discussion list or you might want to approach someone on the IAB
> about this topic, since the IAB is the responsible party in establishing =
and
> appointing liaisons.=A0
>=20
> However, as far as the 3gpp specs that are all online, fairly up-to-date =
as
> best as I can tell:
> http://www.3gpp.org/-specifications-
>=20
> As you puruse the specs, you will find that 3gpp uses a number of the spe=
cs in
> the exact same manner as do "e2e" implementations. =A0So, I don't think the
> situation is as dire as it might appear. =A0We can debate this topic ad nas=
eum,
> but IMS is what it is and is being deployed and nothing any of us say or =
think
> here will change that. =A0The reality is that a large number of contributor=
s to
> the e2e specs are here because the folks that pay them to contribute to t=
he
> IETF make money selling those systems. =A0I will also note that folks that
> aren't interested in IMS can use your document that was published as a
> baseline "e2e" SIP implementation:=A0http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5638
>=20
> There is also a spreadsheet of IETF dependencies that is regularly update=
d and
> it includes references to the specs that depend upon core IETF RFCs:
> http://www.3gpp.org/-IETF-Dependencies-and-Priorities-
>=20
> I will note that summaries of issues and actions related to the RAI area
> documents has been posted on the RAI area mailing list in the past:
> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rai/current/msg00955.html
> So, I think there has been a reasonable amount of transparency with regar=
ds to
> this working relationship. Since this relationship between 3GPP and IETF =
has
> been in place, there have been a number of documents that have been appro=
ved
> and in general it has been a fruitful relationship on both parts. =A0In som=
e
> cases, core changes were made to SIP that benefited both the e2e model an=
d the
> walled garden. =A0
>=20
> Regards,
> Mary.=A0
>=20
> On Fri, Mar 11, 2011 at 11:28 AM, Henry Sinnreich <henry.sinnreich@gmail.=
com>
> wrote:
>> Hi Andrew, Christer,
>>=20
>>>> >> My understanding also is that IETF nearly a decade ago agreed to
>>>> >> cooperate with 3GPP (and other standards bodies) in developing and
>>>> >> enhancing internet protocols
>>=20
>> 3GPP etc. documents are best served by having them online, up-to-date, o=
n
>> their respective web sites, where they can be searched and studied.
>> Using IETF RFCs for this seems rather odd, and certainly less effective.
>>=20
>>> >some people in IETF suddently thinks there are more "fun and sexy" stu=
ff to
>>> >work on than SIP...
>>=20
>> As mentioned, after 100's of SIP RFCs and I-Ds over 12+ years, almost al=
l
>> SIP apps are telephony features, while 100,000s of apps are all using HT=
ML,
>> some of them to communicate in new ways - quite different from the SIP
>> telephone call signaling models. RTC-Web may or may not be based on SIP
>> signaling _alone_ , if at all. Communication models and user habits have
>> changed very much (and are still changing) since SIP has been defined.
>>=20
>> Don't you think we have a problem here?
>> If yes, wouldn't listening to the IETF technical plenary presentation on=
 the
>> future of applications be a good start to address the challenge for SIP
>> applications?
>>=20
>> What do you think?
>>=20
>> Henry
>>=20
>>=20
>> On 3/11/11 12:57 AM, "Christer Holmberg" <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com=
>
>> wrote:
>>=20
>>> >
>>> > Hi,
>>> >
>>> > I agree with Andrew.
>>> >
>>> > People have invested, and are investing, lots of resources into SIP b=
ased
>>> > systems. They are not suddently going to throw everything away just
>>> because
>>> > some people in IETF suddently thinks there are more "fun and sexy" st=
uff
>>> to
>>> > work on than SIP...
>>> >
>>> > Also, regarding the agreement between IETF and 3GPP, if people have i=
ssues
>>> > with that agreement I don't think that people who are working based o=
n
>>> that
>>> > agreement should have to suffer.
>>> >
>>> > Instead, people having issues with the agreement should bring those i=
ssues
>>> to
>>> > a more appropriate instance.
>>> >
>>> > Regards,
>>> >
>>> > Christer
>>> >
>>> >
>>>> >> -----Original Message-----
>>>> >> From: dispatch-bounces@ietf.org
>>>> >> [mailto:dispatch-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Allen
>>>> >> Sent: 11. maaliskuuta 2011 0:04
>>>> >> To: Henry Sinnreich; tanakai@nttdocomo.co.jp; dispatch@ietf.org
>>>> >> Subject: Re: [dispatch]
>>>> >> Revisionofdraft-allen-dispatch-imei-urn-as-instanceid
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Hi Henry,
>>>> >>
>>>> >> I think then that it's a fair summary of your email to say
>>>> >> that your objections are of a political and philosophical
>>>> >> nature related to your view of what constitutes the internet
>>>> >> and whether the IETF should be involved in enhancing IETF
>>>> >> protocols for stakeholders that utilize those IETF protocols
>>>> >> for deployments that some in the community might not consider
>>>> >> "the Internet" or "the pure Internet" or the "open e2e
>>>> >> Internet" rather than technical issues with the contents of
>>>> >> the drafts.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> While I don't want to start a general debate on what is "the Intern=
et"
>>>> >> here I will state that in my view it's very difficult to
>>>> >> exclude any particular stakeholders and their deployments of
>>>> >> IETF protocols from being part of the Internet when those
>>>> >> stakeholders are in many cases the very same established
>>>> >> telecommunications companies or ISPs that the vast majority
>>>> >> of the population in most countries use to obtain access to
>>>> >> the Internet.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> My understanding also is that IETF nearly a decade ago agreed
>>>> >> to cooperate with 3GPP (and other standards bodies) in
>>>> >> developing and enhancing internet protocols and that IETF
>>>> >> specifically requested (more like insisted) that any
>>>> >> extensions or enhancements to IETF protocols required by 3GPP
>>>> >> be done within IETF according to the procedures defined by
>>>> >> IETF for enhancing IETF protocols and for registering namespaces et=
c.
>>>> >> These drafts simply comply with that agreed way of working
>>>> >> between IETF and 3GPP. To my knowledge this working agreement
>>>> >> is still in effect. I don't think it is the role of the
>>>> >> dispatch WG to determine which applications or deployments of
>>>> >> SIP to support or cooperate with counter to agreements
>>>> >> previously made at IESG level.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Refusing cooperation based on what is considered not to be
>>>> >> part of the "open e2e Internet" is only likely to set up two
>>>> >> (or more) competing versions of the Internet resulting in the
>>>> >> 21st century equivalent of the standard rail gauge vs broad
>>>> >> rail gauge communications interoperability issue from the
>>>> >> 19th century - effectively killing the goal of an open e2e
>>>> >> internet! As Dale indicated what is considered a walled
>>>> >> garden today may not be walled in the future (if I remember
>>>> >> some very significant walls came tumbling down during just
>>>> >> the last decade of the 20th century alone).
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Different business models will be resolved through the market
>>>> >> not by creating competing incompatible technical solutions.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> In terms of the time used on discussion within dispatch I
>>>> >> don't think there is a need for much more discussion in
>>>> >> dispatch. These drafts could go ahead as AD sponsored without
>>>> >> further WG involvement. As I understand it the IMEI URN
>>>> >> definition draft did not as part of the URN registration
>>>> >> process need to even be discussed in dispatch at all
>>>> >> (although Dale Worley's review was invaluable in improving
>>>> >> the draft technically) as the NIDs list was the fora for this
>>>> >> discussion and where previous versions of that draft were discussed=
.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> It should be noted all we are talking about with regard to
>>>> >> these drafts is the registration of a URN namespace and
>>>> >> definition of its usage as an Instance ID as required by RFC
>>>> >> 5626. If we can't agree that then what future extensions can we agr=
ee?
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Andrew
>>>> >>
>>>> >> -----Original Message-----
>>>> >> From: Henry Sinnreich [mailto:henry.sinnreich@gmail.com]
>>>> >> Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2011 11:03 AM
>>>> >> To: Andrew Allen; tanakai@nttdocomo.co.jp; dispatch@ietf.org
>>>> >> Subject: Re: [dispatch]
>>>> >> Revisionofdraft-allen-dispatch-imei-urn-as-instanceid
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Hi Andrew,
>>>> >>
>>>> >> I have generic objections to see the publication of yet
>>>> >> another informational RFC about practices in consortiums of
>>>> >> closed networks in the IETF, for the following reasons:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> * Using the RFC process as a publishing venue for
>>>> >> organizations that don't explicitly do that in support of the
>>>> >> open e2e Internet.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> * The resources of the IETF are not unlimited, meeting time
>>>> >> and email time to discuss is scarce and the IETF registries
>>>> >> are just not scalable enough to support registrations for all
>>>> >> the extensions that benefit countless external organizations
>>>> >> and companies that deploy Internet technology.
>>>> >> New business plans and the required extensions pop up in an
>>>> >> endless fashion.
>>>> >> Big organizations such as you mention have their own
>>>> >> resources to publish their internal technical documents and
>>>> >> white papers if they desire to do so.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Members of outside organizations are certainly doing
>>>> >> everybody a good service by informing via email of new
>>>> >> standards/extensions in other organization, such as you have
>>>> >> done below, but such information need not overload the
>>>> >> Internet RFC process nor overload the Internet registries.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> * Hard for SIP developers and right out impossible for
>>>> >> application developers.
>>>> >> Though SIP works fine indeed across the world; SIPit and the
>>>> >> SIP Forum take care of unavoidable problems still encountered
>>>> >> by operators, arguably increasing SIP complexity for
>>>> >> non-Internet purposes is not a good idea, even if new SIP
>>>> >> extensions are labeled as just "informational". It makes it
>>>> >> even more difficult for new developers entering the field to
>>>> >> ever understand, let alone write code for some or all that
>>>> >> has been published already about SIP for example. Checking
>>>> >> right now there are 197 RFCs matching SIP and 78 I-Ds found
>>>> >> by the RFC search engine.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> It is time to leave SIP alone and move on to other critical
>>>> >> areas for the Internet, such as for example the future of
>>>> >> applications that will be discussed in the next IETF
>>>> >> technical plenary on Monday, March 28.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> With this in mind, I would rather not go into discussing your
>>>> >> I-D in detail, though at first glance it seems technically
>>>> >> correct and if it were discussed on the list, may indeed
>>>> >> technically qualify as an informational RFC - just what I am
>>>> >> arguing against.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> These are all personal opinions. The chairs and ADs may or
>>>> >> may not discuss or agree/disagree with. Your I-D is just a
>>>> >> good opportunity to raise these issues.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Note that I am not suggesting any voting on your I-D, if it
>>>> >> will be discussed, since for various reasons, the majority of
>>>> >> folks attending the DISPATCH WG are from various outside
>>>> >> organizations with business plans that may or may not fully
>>>> >> embrace the open e2e Internet; a perfect legitimate choice
>>>> >> for them, but not =A0in the IETF (I just can't remember when
>>>> >> ever there was a vote against any new I-D for SIP, since no
>>>> >> cost was perceived by those voting).
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Thanks,
>>>> >> Henry
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> On 3/9/11 5:45 PM, "Andrew Allen" <aallen@rim.com> wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> Henry
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> Would you care to elaborate and explain your specific concerns? =A0=
How
>>>> >> is what
>>>>> >>> is defined in these drafts potentially incompatible with
>>>> >> the open, e2e
>>>>> >>> architectural and in any other way technical conflict with the
>>>> >> Internet?
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> The two drafts do the following things:
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> One draft simply defines and registers with IANA a URN namespace
>>>> >> according to
>>>>> >>> the procedures defined for doing that.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> The other draft simply defines how this URN can be used as
>>>> >> an instance
>>>> >> ID as
>>>>> >>> required by RFC 5626.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> SIP and the mechanisms in RFC 5626 are already being used
>>>> >> in networks
>>>> >> defined
>>>>> >>> by 3GPP and are being deployed by members of the GSMA. 3GPP and G=
SMA
>>>> >> have
>>>>> >>> already defined this behavior using their existing device
>>>> >> Identifiers
>>>> >> for
>>>>> >>> instance ID generation in their specifications. These
>>>> >> drafts complete
>>>> >> the
>>>>> >>> process doing things the right way by reserving the namespace and
>>>> >> defining the
>>>>> >>> usage of it using the IETF defined mechanisms for doing that.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> Andrew
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> >>> From: Henry Sinnreich [mailto:henry.sinnreich@gmail.com]
>>>>> >>> Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 03:10 PM
>>>>> >>> To: Itsuma TANAKA <tanakai@nttdocomo.co.jp>; dispatch@ietf.org
>>>>> >>> <dispatch@ietf.org>
>>>>> >>> Subject: Re: [dispatch]
>>>> >> Revisionofdraft-allen-dispatch-imei-urn-as-instanceid
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> Such work in the IETF would require IMO an explanation about its
>>>>> >>> compatibility with the open, e2e architectural and other technica=
l
>>>>> >>> principles of the Internet. It actually seems to be the opposite.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> For this reason, such work may be better accomplished in other
>>>>> >>> organizations, so as to avoid architectural principle and other
>>>> >> technical
>>>>> >>> conflicts. Simplicity and scalability comes to mind among other,
>>>> >> though this
>>>>> >>> is better discussed elsewhere.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> Thanks,
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> Henry Sinnreich
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> On 3/9/11 8:54 AM, "Itsuma TANAKA" <tanakai@nttdocomo.co.jp> wrot=
e:
>>>>> >>>
>>>>>> >>>> Dear All,
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> I work for NTT DOCOMO, Inc in Japan. and attend various
>>>> >> 3GPP meetings
>>>> >> (SA2,
>>>>>> >>>> CT1, CT4, and CT3) and GSM Association (GSMA) Interworking, Roa=
ming
>>>> >> Expert
>>>>>> >>>> Group (IREG), Roaming in LTE (RILTE) and Packet subgroup
>>>> >> meetings. =A0I
>>>> >> serve
>>>>>> >>>> as a Vice Chair of GSMA IREG RILTE and Packet subgroups.
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> I would like to express my support of
>>>> >> draft-montemurro-gsma-imei-urn
>>>> >> and the
>>>>>> >>>> associated draft-allen-dispatch-imei-urn-as-instanceid.
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> The reasons are exactly same as what Ricky Kaura (Samsung)
>>>> >> expressed.
>>>> >> A
>>>>>> >>>> various 3GPP specifications (IMS Registration in 3GPP
>>>> >> TS24.229, IMS
>>>>>> >>>> emergency calls in TS23.237 and TS24.237, ICS in TS23.292 and
>>>> >> TS24.292), and
>>>>>> >>>> GSMA document (GSMA PRD IR.92, "IMS Profile for Voice and SMS")=
 are
>>>> >> using
>>>>>> >>>> these drafts.
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> These internet drafts are very important to support various key
>>>> >> features in
>>>>>> >>>> 3GPP and to enable GSMA Voice over LTE. =A0Therefore, I kindly wo=
uld
>>>> >> like ask
>>>>>> >>>> that this work is progressed as quickly as possible in IETF.
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> Best regards,
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> Itsuma Tanaka
>>>>>> >>>> NTT DOCOMO
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> >>>> dispatch mailing list
>>>>>> >>>> dispatch@ietf.org
>>>>>> >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> >>> dispatch mailing list
>>>>> >>> dispatch@ietf.org
>>>>> >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>>
>>>> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------=
--
>>>>> >>> This transmission (including any attachments) may contain
>>>> >> confidential
>>>>> >>> information, privileged material (including material
>>>> >> protected by the
>>>>> >>> solicitor-client or other applicable privileges), or constitute
>>>> >> non-public
>>>>> >>> information. Any use of this information by anyone other than the
>>>> >> intended
>>>>> >>> recipient is prohibited. If you have received this transmission i=
n
>>>> >> error,
>>>>> >>> please immediately reply to the sender and delete this informatio=
n
>>>> >> from your
>>>>> >>> system. Use, dissemination, distribution, or reproduction of this
>>>> >> transmission
>>>>> >>> by unintended recipients is not authorized and may be unlawful.
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------=
--
>>>> >> This transmission (including any attachments) may contain
>>>> >> confidential information, privileged material (including
>>>> >> material protected by the solicitor-client or other
>>>> >> applicable privileges), or constitute non-public information.
>>>> >> Any use of this information by anyone other than the intended
>>>> >> recipient is prohibited. If you have received this
>>>> >> transmission in error, please immediately reply to the sender
>>>> >> and delete this information from your system. Use,
>>>> >> dissemination, distribution, or reproduction of this
>>>> >> transmission by unintended recipients is not authorized and
>>>> >> may be unlawful.
>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>> >> dispatch mailing list
>>>> >> dispatch@ietf.org
>>>> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
>>>> >>
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> dispatch mailing list
>> dispatch@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
>=20
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> This transmission (including any attachments) may contain confidential
> information, privileged material (including material protected by the
> solicitor-client or other applicable privileges), or constitute non-publi=
c
> information. Any use of this information by anyone other than the intende=
d
> recipient is prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error,
> please immediately reply to the sender and delete this information from y=
our
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> by unintended recipients is not authorized and may be unlawful.


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<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: [dispatch] Revisionofdraft-allen-dispatch-imei-urn-as-instanceid=
</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:13pt=
'>Hi Andrew,<BR>
<BR>
Yes, chatting at the IETF would be interesting, though there is nothing phi=
losophical in the overwhelming hard numbers and trends in the market for all=
 industry segments driven by applications. And the Web platforms for these a=
pplications. <BR>
<BR>
Henry<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
On 3/12/11 5:53 PM, &quot;Andrew Allen&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"aallen@rim.com">a=
allen@rim.com</a>&gt; wrote:<BR>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><=
FONT SIZE=3D"2"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt'><BR>
Henry<BR>
<BR>
I think Mary has covered this all very well.<BR>
<BR>
I am happy to engage in further philosophical discussions on the future of =
the Internet in Prague.<BR>
<BR>
Andrew<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:13pt'> <BR>
</SPAN><FONT SIZE=3D"1"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:10pt'><B>From</B>: Mary Barnes=
 [<a href=3D"mailto:mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com">mailto:mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.=
com</a>] <BR>
<B>Sent</B>: Friday, March 11, 2011 01:27 PM<BR>
<B>To</B>: Henry Sinnreich &lt;<a href=3D"henry.sinnreich@gmail.com">henry.si=
nnreich@gmail.com</a>&gt; <BR>
<B>Cc</B>: Christer Holmberg &lt;<a href=3D"christer.holmberg@ericsson.com">c=
hrister.holmberg@ericsson.com</a>&gt;; Andrew Allen; <a href=3D"tanakai@nttdoc=
omo.co.jp">tanakai@nttdocomo.co.jp</a> &lt;<a href=3D"tanakai@nttdocomo.co.jp"=
>tanakai@nttdocomo.co.jp</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"dispatch@ietf.org">dispatch@ietf.=
org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"dispatch@ietf.org">dispatch@ietf.org</a>&gt; <BR>
<B>Subject</B>: Re: [dispatch] Revisionofdraft-allen-dispatch-imei-urn-as-i=
nstanceid <BR>
</SPAN></FONT><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:13pt'> <BR>
Hi Henry,=A0<BR>
<BR>
I'll make just a few comments on this discussion thread, as I don't think i=
t's a productive discussion on this mailing list - likely it would be better=
 on the ietf-discussion list or you might want to approach someone on the IA=
B about this topic, since the IAB is the responsible party in establishing a=
nd appointing liaisons.=A0<BR>
<BR>
However, as far as the 3gpp specs that are all online, fairly up-to-date as=
 best as I can tell:<BR>
<a href=3D"http://www.3gpp.org/-specifications-">http://www.3gpp.org/-specifi=
cations-</a><BR>
<BR>
As you puruse the specs, you will find that 3gpp uses a number of the specs=
 in the exact same manner as do &quot;e2e&quot; implementations. =A0So, I don'=
t think the situation is as dire as it might appear. =A0We can debate this top=
ic ad naseum, but IMS is what it is and is being deployed and nothing any of=
 us say or think here will change that. =A0The reality is that a large number =
of contributors to the e2e specs are here because the folks that pay them to=
 contribute to the IETF make money selling those systems. =A0I will also note =
that folks that aren't interested in IMS can use your document that was publ=
ished as a baseline &quot;e2e&quot; SIP implementation:=A0<a href=3D"http://tool=
s.ietf.org/html/rfc5638">http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5638</a><BR>
<BR>
There is also a spreadsheet of IETF dependencies that is regularly updated =
and it includes references to the specs that depend upon core IETF RFCs:<BR>
<a href=3D"http://www.3gpp.org/-IETF-Dependencies-and-Priorities-">http://www=
.3gpp.org/-IETF-Dependencies-and-Priorities-</a><BR>
<BR>
I will note that summaries of issues and actions related to the RAI area do=
cuments has been posted on the RAI area mailing list in the past:<BR>
<a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rai/current/msg00955.html">ht=
tp://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rai/current/msg00955.html</a><BR>
So, I think there has been a reasonable amount of transparency with regards=
 to this working relationship. Since this relationship between 3GPP and IETF=
 has been in place, there have been a number of documents that have been app=
roved and in general it has been a fruitful relationship on both parts. =A0In =
some cases, core changes were made to SIP that benefited both the e2e model =
and the walled garden. =A0<BR>
<BR>
Regards,<BR>
Mary.=A0<BR>
<BR>
On Fri, Mar 11, 2011 at 11:28 AM, Henry Sinnreich &lt;<a href=3D"henry.sinnre=
ich@gmail.com">henry.sinnreich@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><=
SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:13pt'>Hi Andrew, Christer,<BR>
<BR>
&gt;&gt; My understanding also is that IETF nearly a decade ago agreed to<B=
R>
&gt;&gt; cooperate with 3GPP (and other standards bodies) in developing and=
<BR>
&gt;&gt; enhancing internet protocols<BR>
<BR>
3GPP etc. documents are best served by having them online, up-to-date, on<B=
R>
their respective web sites, where they can be searched and studied.<BR>
Using IETF RFCs for this seems rather odd, and certainly less effective.<BR=
>
<BR>
&gt;some people in IETF suddently thinks there are more &quot;fun and sexy&=
quot; stuff to<BR>
&gt;work on than SIP...<BR>
<BR>
As mentioned, after 100's of SIP RFCs and I-Ds over 12+ years, almost all<B=
R>
SIP apps are telephony features, while 100,000s of apps are all using HTML,=
<BR>
some of them to communicate in new ways - quite different from the SIP<BR>
telephone call signaling models. RTC-Web may or may not be based on SIP<BR>
signaling _alone_ , if at all. Communication models and user habits have<BR=
>
changed very much (and are still changing) since SIP has been defined.<BR>
<BR>
Don't you think we have a problem here?<BR>
If yes, wouldn't listening to the IETF technical plenary presentation on th=
e<BR>
future of applications be a good start to address the challenge for SIP<BR>
applications?<BR>
<BR>
What do you think?<BR>
<BR>
Henry<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
On 3/11/11 12:57 AM, &quot;Christer Holmberg&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"christer.ho=
lmberg@ericsson.com">christer.holmberg@ericsson.com</a>&gt;<BR>
wrote:<BR>
<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt; Hi,<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt; I agree with Andrew.<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt; People have invested, and are investing, lots of resources into SIP ba=
sed<BR>
&gt; systems. They are not suddently going to throw everything away just be=
cause<BR>
&gt; some people in IETF suddently thinks there are more &quot;fun and sexy=
&quot; stuff to<BR>
&gt; work on than SIP...<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt; Also, regarding the agreement between IETF and 3GPP, if people have is=
sues<BR>
&gt; with that agreement I don't think that people who are working based on=
 that<BR>
&gt; agreement should have to suffer.<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt; Instead, people having issues with the agreement should bring those is=
sues to<BR>
&gt; a more appropriate instance.<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt; Regards,<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt; Christer<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt; -----Original Message-----<BR>
&gt;&gt; From: <a href=3D"dispatch-bounces@ietf.org">dispatch-bounces@ietf.or=
g</a><BR>
&gt;&gt; [<a href=3D"mailto:dispatch-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:dispatch-bounce=
s@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Andrew Allen<BR>
&gt;&gt; Sent: 11. maaliskuuta 2011 0:04<BR>
&gt;&gt; To: Henry Sinnreich; <a href=3D"tanakai@nttdocomo.co.jp">tanakai@ntt=
docomo.co.jp</a>; <a href=3D"dispatch@ietf.org">dispatch@ietf.org</a><BR>
&gt;&gt; Subject: Re: [dispatch]<BR>
&gt;&gt; Revisionofdraft-allen-dispatch-imei-urn-as-instanceid<BR>
&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt; Hi Henry,<BR>
&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt; I think then that it's a fair summary of your email to say<BR>
&gt;&gt; that your objections are of a political and philosophical<BR>
&gt;&gt; nature related to your view of what constitutes the internet<BR>
&gt;&gt; and whether the IETF should be involved in enhancing IETF<BR>
&gt;&gt; protocols for stakeholders that utilize those IETF protocols<BR>
&gt;&gt; for deployments that some in the community might not consider<BR>
&gt;&gt; &quot;the Internet&quot; or &quot;the pure Internet&quot; or the &=
quot;open e2e<BR>
&gt;&gt; Internet&quot; rather than technical issues with the contents of<B=
R>
&gt;&gt; the drafts.<BR>
&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt; While I don't want to start a general debate on what is &quot;the =
Internet&quot;<BR>
&gt;&gt; here I will state that in my view it's very difficult to<BR>
&gt;&gt; exclude any particular stakeholders and their deployments of<BR>
&gt;&gt; IETF protocols from being part of the Internet when those<BR>
&gt;&gt; stakeholders are in many cases the very same established<BR>
&gt;&gt; telecommunications companies or ISPs that the vast majority<BR>
&gt;&gt; of the population in most countries use to obtain access to<BR>
&gt;&gt; the Internet.<BR>
&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt; My understanding also is that IETF nearly a decade ago agreed<BR>
&gt;&gt; to cooperate with 3GPP (and other standards bodies) in<BR>
&gt;&gt; developing and enhancing internet protocols and that IETF<BR>
&gt;&gt; specifically requested (more like insisted) that any<BR>
&gt;&gt; extensions or enhancements to IETF protocols required by 3GPP<BR>
&gt;&gt; be done within IETF according to the procedures defined by<BR>
&gt;&gt; IETF for enhancing IETF protocols and for registering namespaces e=
tc.<BR>
&gt;&gt; These drafts simply comply with that agreed way of working<BR>
&gt;&gt; between IETF and 3GPP. To my knowledge this working agreement<BR>
&gt;&gt; is still in effect. I don't think it is the role of the<BR>
&gt;&gt; dispatch WG to determine which applications or deployments of<BR>
&gt;&gt; SIP to support or cooperate with counter to agreements<BR>
&gt;&gt; previously made at IESG level.<BR>
&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt; Refusing cooperation based on what is considered not to be<BR>
&gt;&gt; part of the &quot;open e2e Internet&quot; is only likely to set up=
 two<BR>
&gt;&gt; (or more) competing versions of the Internet resulting in the<BR>
&gt;&gt; 21st century equivalent of the standard rail gauge vs broad<BR>
&gt;&gt; rail gauge communications interoperability issue from the<BR>
&gt;&gt; 19th century - effectively killing the goal of an open e2e<BR>
&gt;&gt; internet! As Dale indicated what is considered a walled<BR>
&gt;&gt; garden today may not be walled in the future (if I remember<BR>
&gt;&gt; some very significant walls came tumbling down during just<BR>
&gt;&gt; the last decade of the 20th century alone).<BR>
&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt; Different business models will be resolved through the market<BR>
&gt;&gt; not by creating competing incompatible technical solutions.<BR>
&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt; In terms of the time used on discussion within dispatch I<BR>
&gt;&gt; don't think there is a need for much more discussion in<BR>
&gt;&gt; dispatch. These drafts could go ahead as AD sponsored without<BR>
&gt;&gt; further WG involvement. As I understand it the IMEI URN<BR>
&gt;&gt; definition draft did not as part of the URN registration<BR>
&gt;&gt; process need to even be discussed in dispatch at all<BR>
&gt;&gt; (although Dale Worley's review was invaluable in improving<BR>
&gt;&gt; the draft technically) as the NIDs list was the fora for this<BR>
&gt;&gt; discussion and where previous versions of that draft were discusse=
d.<BR>
&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt; It should be noted all we are talking about with regard to<BR>
&gt;&gt; these drafts is the registration of a URN namespace and<BR>
&gt;&gt; definition of its usage as an Instance ID as required by RFC<BR>
&gt;&gt; 5626. If we can't agree that then what future extensions can we ag=
ree?<BR>
&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt; Andrew<BR>
&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt; -----Original Message-----<BR>
&gt;&gt; From: Henry Sinnreich [<a href=3D"mailto:henry.sinnreich@gmail.com">=
mailto:henry.sinnreich@gmail.com</a>]<BR>
&gt;&gt; Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2011 11:03 AM<BR>
&gt;&gt; To: Andrew Allen; <a href=3D"tanakai@nttdocomo.co.jp">tanakai@nttdoc=
omo.co.jp</a>; <a href=3D"dispatch@ietf.org">dispatch@ietf.org</a><BR>
&gt;&gt; Subject: Re: [dispatch]<BR>
&gt;&gt; Revisionofdraft-allen-dispatch-imei-urn-as-instanceid<BR>
&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt; Hi Andrew,<BR>
&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt; I have generic objections to see the publication of yet<BR>
&gt;&gt; another informational RFC about practices in consortiums of<BR>
&gt;&gt; closed networks in the IETF, for the following reasons:<BR>
&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt; * Using the RFC process as a publishing venue for<BR>
&gt;&gt; organizations that don't explicitly do that in support of the<BR>
&gt;&gt; open e2e Internet.<BR>
&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt; * The resources of the IETF are not unlimited, meeting time<BR>
&gt;&gt; and email time to discuss is scarce and the IETF registries<BR>
&gt;&gt; are just not scalable enough to support registrations for all<BR>
&gt;&gt; the extensions that benefit countless external organizations<BR>
&gt;&gt; and companies that deploy Internet technology.<BR>
&gt;&gt; New business plans and the required extensions pop up in an<BR>
&gt;&gt; endless fashion.<BR>
&gt;&gt; Big organizations such as you mention have their own<BR>
&gt;&gt; resources to publish their internal technical documents and<BR>
&gt;&gt; white papers if they desire to do so.<BR>
&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt; Members of outside organizations are certainly doing<BR>
&gt;&gt; everybody a good service by informing via email of new<BR>
&gt;&gt; standards/extensions in other organization, such as you have<BR>
&gt;&gt; done below, but such information need not overload the<BR>
&gt;&gt; Internet RFC process nor overload the Internet registries.<BR>
&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt; * Hard for SIP developers and right out impossible for<BR>
&gt;&gt; application developers.<BR>
&gt;&gt; Though SIP works fine indeed across the world; SIPit and the<BR>
&gt;&gt; SIP Forum take care of unavoidable problems still encountered<BR>
&gt;&gt; by operators, arguably increasing SIP complexity for<BR>
&gt;&gt; non-Internet purposes is not a good idea, even if new SIP<BR>
&gt;&gt; extensions are labeled as just &quot;informational&quot;. It makes=
 it<BR>
&gt;&gt; even more difficult for new developers entering the field to<BR>
&gt;&gt; ever understand, let alone write code for some or all that<BR>
&gt;&gt; has been published already about SIP for example. Checking<BR>
&gt;&gt; right now there are 197 RFCs matching SIP and 78 I-Ds found<BR>
&gt;&gt; by the RFC search engine.<BR>
&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt; It is time to leave SIP alone and move on to other critical<BR>
&gt;&gt; areas for the Internet, such as for example the future of<BR>
&gt;&gt; applications that will be discussed in the next IETF<BR>
&gt;&gt; technical plenary on Monday, March 28.<BR>
&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt; With this in mind, I would rather not go into discussing your<BR>
&gt;&gt; I-D in detail, though at first glance it seems technically<BR>
&gt;&gt; correct and if it were discussed on the list, may indeed<BR>
&gt;&gt; technically qualify as an informational RFC - just what I am<BR>
&gt;&gt; arguing against.<BR>
&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt; These are all personal opinions. The chairs and ADs may or<BR>
&gt;&gt; may not discuss or agree/disagree with. Your I-D is just a<BR>
&gt;&gt; good opportunity to raise these issues.<BR>
&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt; Note that I am not suggesting any voting on your I-D, if it<BR>
&gt;&gt; will be discussed, since for various reasons, the majority of<BR>
&gt;&gt; folks attending the DISPATCH WG are from various outside<BR>
&gt;&gt; organizations with business plans that may or may not fully<BR>
&gt;&gt; embrace the open e2e Internet; a perfect legitimate choice<BR>
&gt;&gt; for them, but not =A0in the IETF (I just can't remember when<BR>
&gt;&gt; ever there was a vote against any new I-D for SIP, since no<BR>
&gt;&gt; cost was perceived by those voting).<BR>
&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt; Thanks,<BR>
&gt;&gt; Henry<BR>
&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt; On 3/9/11 5:45 PM, &quot;Andrew Allen&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"aallen@ri=
m.com">aallen@rim.com</a>&gt; wrote:<BR>
&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Henry<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Would you care to elaborate and explain your specific concerns=
? =A0How<BR>
&gt;&gt; is what<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt; is defined in these drafts potentially incompatible with<BR>
&gt;&gt; the open, e2e<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt; architectural and in any other way technical conflict with the=
<BR>
&gt;&gt; Internet?<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt; The two drafts do the following things:<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt; One draft simply defines and registers with IANA a URN namespa=
ce<BR>
&gt;&gt; according to<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt; the procedures defined for doing that.<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt; The other draft simply defines how this URN can be used as<BR>
&gt;&gt; an instance<BR>
&gt;&gt; ID as<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt; required by RFC 5626.<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt; SIP and the mechanisms in RFC 5626 are already being used<BR>
&gt;&gt; in networks<BR>
&gt;&gt; defined<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt; by 3GPP and are being deployed by members of the GSMA. 3GPP an=
d GSMA<BR>
&gt;&gt; have<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt; already defined this behavior using their existing device<BR>
&gt;&gt; Identifiers<BR>
&gt;&gt; for<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt; instance ID generation in their specifications. These<BR>
&gt;&gt; drafts complete<BR>
&gt;&gt; the<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt; process doing things the right way by reserving the namespace =
and<BR>
&gt;&gt; defining the<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt; usage of it using the IETF defined mechanisms for doing that.<=
BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Andrew<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt; ----- Original Message -----<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt; From: Henry Sinnreich [<a href=3D"mailto:henry.sinnreich@gmail.c=
om">mailto:henry.sinnreich@gmail.com</a>]<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 03:10 PM<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt; To: Itsuma TANAKA &lt;<a href=3D"tanakai@nttdocomo.co.jp">tanaka=
i@nttdocomo.co.jp</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"dispatch@ietf.org">dispatch@ietf.org</a>=
<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"dispatch@ietf.org">dispatch@ietf.org</a>&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Subject: Re: [dispatch]<BR>
&gt;&gt; Revisionofdraft-allen-dispatch-imei-urn-as-instanceid<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Such work in the IETF would require IMO an explanation about i=
ts<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt; compatibility with the open, e2e architectural and other techn=
ical<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt; principles of the Internet. It actually seems to be the opposi=
te.<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt; For this reason, such work may be better accomplished in other=
<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt; organizations, so as to avoid architectural principle and othe=
r<BR>
&gt;&gt; technical<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt; conflicts. Simplicity and scalability comes to mind among othe=
r,<BR>
&gt;&gt; though this<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt; is better discussed elsewhere.<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Thanks,<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Henry Sinnreich<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt; On 3/9/11 8:54 AM, &quot;Itsuma TANAKA&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"tana=
kai@nttdocomo.co.jp">tanakai@nttdocomo.co.jp</a>&gt; wrote:<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Dear All,<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I work for NTT DOCOMO, Inc in Japan. and attend various<BR=
>
&gt;&gt; 3GPP meetings<BR>
&gt;&gt; (SA2,<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; CT1, CT4, and CT3) and GSM Association (GSMA) Interworking=
, Roaming<BR>
&gt;&gt; Expert<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Group (IREG), Roaming in LTE (RILTE) and Packet subgroup<B=
R>
&gt;&gt; meetings. =A0I<BR>
&gt;&gt; serve<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; as a Vice Chair of GSMA IREG RILTE and Packet subgroups.<B=
R>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I would like to express my support of<BR>
&gt;&gt; draft-montemurro-gsma-imei-urn<BR>
&gt;&gt; and the<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; associated draft-allen-dispatch-imei-urn-as-instanceid.<BR=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; The reasons are exactly same as what Ricky Kaura (Samsung)=
<BR>
&gt;&gt; expressed.<BR>
&gt;&gt; A<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; various 3GPP specifications (IMS Registration in 3GPP<BR>
&gt;&gt; TS24.229, IMS<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; emergency calls in TS23.237 and TS24.237, ICS in TS23.292 =
and<BR>
&gt;&gt; TS24.292), and<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; GSMA document (GSMA PRD IR.92, &quot;IMS Profile for Voice=
 and SMS&quot;) are<BR>
&gt;&gt; using<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; these drafts.<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; These internet drafts are very important to support variou=
s key<BR>
&gt;&gt; features in<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; 3GPP and to enable GSMA Voice over LTE. =A0Therefore, I kind=
ly would<BR>
&gt;&gt; like ask<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; that this work is progressed as quickly as possible in IET=
F.<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Best regards,<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Itsuma Tanaka<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; NTT DOCOMO<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; _______________________________________________<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; dispatch mailing list<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"dispatch@ietf.org">dispatch@ietf.org</a><BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch">h=
ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch</a><BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt; _______________________________________________<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt; dispatch mailing list<BR>
&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"dispatch@ietf.org">dispatch@ietf.org</a><BR>
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From christer.holmberg@ericsson.com  Mon Mar 14 05:01:46 2011
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From: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
To: "rtc-web@alvestrand.no" <rtc-web@alvestrand.no>, "dispatch@ietf.org" <dispatch@ietf.org>
Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 13:03:00 +0100
Thread-Topic: Draft new version: draft-holmberg-rtcweb-ucreqs-01
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References: <AANLkTinoHVD3EnNpDax0CwDqEy5isNDKHA7oKYLVEAwb@mail.gmail.com>, <C9A163B0.5B87%jonathan.rosenberg@skype.net> <BLU152-w601174B59055DB7F3124D693CD0@phx.gbl> <4D7D199F.6000900@alvestrand.no>
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Subject: [dispatch] Draft new version: draft-holmberg-rtcweb-ucreqs-01
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Hi,

We've submitted a new version of the ucreqs draft.

The new version contains fixes and additions based on comments given on the=
 previous version on the list.

The draft can be found at: http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-holmberg-rtcweb-ucr=
eqs-01.txt

Regards,

Christer=

From Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com  Mon Mar 14 13:27:37 2011
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Sorry Paul that it was not apparent from our draft that this was the goal.
This goal has also be chosen because the solution to get to this goal is 
pretty simple.

Cordially,

Thierry



On 11-Mar-2011 18:38, Paul Kyzivat wrote:
>
>
> On 3/11/2011 7:22 PM, Thierry Bessis wrote:
>
> ...
>
>> The requirement we used for our load balancing
>> requirement is based on the need to balance the utilization ratio on
>> each node
>
> Ah!!! Finally I understand what you are up to!
> It never made sense to me up till now.
>
>     Thanks,
>     Paul
> _______________________________________________
> dispatch mailing list
> dispatch@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch

-- 
-- 
Cordially,
Thierry Bessis
IMS Solution: Architecture & Product Management - ALTA Member
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    Sorry Paul that it was not apparent from our draft that this was the
    goal. <br>
    This goal has also be chosen because the solution to get to this
    goal is pretty simple. <br>
    <br>
    Cordially, <br>
    <br>
    Thierry<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    On 11-Mar-2011 18:38, Paul Kyzivat wrote:
    <blockquote cite="mid:4D7AC073.8010806@cisco.com" type="cite">
      <br>
      <br>
      On 3/11/2011 7:22 PM, Thierry Bessis wrote:
      <br>
      <br>
      ...
      <br>
      <br>
      <blockquote type="cite">The requirement we used for our load
        balancing
        <br>
        requirement is based on the need to balance the utilization
        ratio on
        <br>
        each node
        <br>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      Ah!!! Finally I understand what you are up to!
      <br>
      It never made sense to me up till now.
      <br>
      <br>
      &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Thanks,
      <br>
      &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Paul
      <br>
      _______________________________________________
      <br>
      dispatch mailing list
      <br>
      <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dispatch@ietf.org">dispatch@ietf.org</a>
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              Cordially, <br>
            </span></big></big></big><big style="font-weight: bold;"><big><big><span
              style="font-family: French Script MT;">Thierry Bessis</span></big></big></big>
      <div> </div>
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      &nbsp;
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">IMS Solution: Architecture
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      <span style="font-family: Arial;">&nbsp; Organization: ALU &gt; Carrier
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      <span style="font-family: Arial;">&nbsp; Tel/Fax: +1 630 979 7989</span><br
        style="font-family: Arial;">
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">&nbsp; Corporate IM:
        tbessis&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
        - Yahoo IM:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
        thierry_bessis</span><br>
      <br>
      <small>My WEB page:&nbsp;&nbsp; <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://ihgpweb.ih.lucent.com/~tbessis/">http://ihgpweb.ih.lucent.com/~tbessis/</a><br>
        My Calendar:&nbsp;&nbsp;
        <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=new_frs3175%40yahoo.fr">www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=new_frs3175%40yahoo.fr</a><br>
        ALTA Hot Line: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://alta.all.alcatel-lucent.com/hotline">http://alta.all.alcatel-lucent.com/hotline</a></small><br>
      <br>
      <small>Conference information:<br>
        2801 2801 (US):+1 800 771 8734 - (F):+33 800 941 674 - Access
        Code:
        9797989<br>
        others countries see: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://all.alcatel-lucent.com/audio">http://all.alcatel-lucent.com/audio</a></small><br>
      <br>
      <big style="font-weight: bold;"><big><span style="font-family:
            French Script MT;">Upcoming planned Business Trip:
            12 April - 14 April 2011</span></big></big><br>
      <big style="font-weight: bold;"><big><span style="font-family:
            French Script MT;">Upcoming planned Vacation: None</span></big></big>
    </div>
  </body>
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--------------040700070704070302050202--

--------------030200050804000300050408--

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From: "Worley, Dale R (Dale)" <dworley@avaya.com>
To: Thierry Bessis <Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 18:20:57 -0400
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Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing
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> From: Thierry Bessis [Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com]=20
>=20
> If you have read my previous comments, we suggest there is no
> algorithm per se: this is a measurement of the resource: If you
> measure the CPU and the Memory (for example), you'll take the
> smallest. It is better to smooth (with a 10s sliding window average
> for instance) the number.

But "If you measure the CPU and the Memory (for example), you'll take
the smallest" *is* an algorithm.  Its name is "minimum".  There are an
infinite number of other algorithms.  And you do not state in the
draft that you've chosen "minimum".

Also, the particular smoothing chosen is not trivial, and should be
stated in the draft.

> This is not what we have in mind: the weight should be your relative
> resource usage. (0 - 100%). Using the proposed algorithm, this insure
> that servers reach full capacity simultaneously (even when they have
> vastly different capacities).

Actually, you want the weight to be (or to be proportional) to the
*unused* portion of your resources, so that an entirely unloaded
system has maximum weight and a totally loaded system has zero weight.

But either way, you don't state this in the draft.

And now I realize you sneaked one past me.  The draft refers to RFC
2782 in a number of places, and I didn't recognize it.  You should say
RFC 3263, which is what people who've implemented SIP recognize.  And
the implication is to replace, in the RFC 3263 process, the "weight"
values in the SRV records with the "weight" values fed back from the
servers.

> Yes, this is true. We are successfully using the simple algorithm
> mentioned with DNS (where we update the weight every
> minute). Otherwise they are algorithms that can be used to improve the
> oscillation in the feedback chain command. We think that since we are
> proposing a default one that works, this should be OK.

I'd like to see some analysis and modeling to show that this
particular updating strategy works in a wide range of operating
situations.  Otherwise ... unpleasant ... surprises may happen in the
field.

> > But I don't see any of the needed analysis in the draft, and I
> > don't see any indication in the draft of a realization that this
> > analysis needs to be done.  Until that is fixed, I predict that a
> > solution will not be found, or worse, a solution that appears to
> > work on paper but does not work in practice.
>=20
> This solution works in practice: we are using it in ALU between
> components and nodes that are in the same NE (we currently use a
> proprietary transport mechanism to return the weights).

You mean it works in your one situation.

Dale

From Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com  Mon Mar 14 16:35:40 2011
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Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 18:36:52 -0500
From: Thierry Bessis <Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com>
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Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing
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Dale,

On 14-Mar-2011 17:20, Worley, Dale R (Dale) wrote:
>> From: Thierry Bessis [Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com]
>>
>> If you have read my previous comments, we suggest there is no
>> algorithm per se: this is a measurement of the resource: If you
>> measure the CPU and the Memory (for example), you'll take the
>> smallest. It is better to smooth (with a 10s sliding window average
>> for instance) the number.
> But "If you measure the CPU and the Memory (for example), you'll take
> the smallest" *is* an algorithm.  Its name is "minimum".  There are an
> infinite number of other algorithms.  And you do not state in the
> draft that you've chosen "minimum".
I agree that we need to clarify.
Memory and CPU are just typical examples of constrain resources. The 
draft should probably say:
<< The availability of the key Resources required to setup and maintain 
SIP sessions are measured in terms of available ratios.
The weight represents the MIN of those ratios. >>
> Also, the particular smoothing chosen is not trivial, and should be
> stated in the draft.
But the issue is that it may depends on the applications and situations 
(which is part of your point below).
For instance, in our case we found that a flat average sliding window 
over the last 10 seconds works well. But would it be always the case ?
May be an ascending weights average sliding window of 20s may work 
better in some other cases ?
>> This is not what we have in mind: the weight should be your relative
>> resource usage. (0 - 100%). Using the proposed algorithm, this insure
>> that servers reach full capacity simultaneously (even when they have
>> vastly different capacities).
> Actually, you want the weight to be (or to be proportional) to the
> *unused* portion of your resources, so that an entirely unloaded
> system has maximum weight and a totally loaded system has zero weight.
Yes, absolutely.
> But either way, you don't state this in the draft.
>
> And now I realize you sneaked one past me.  The draft refers to RFC
> 2782 in a number of places, and I didn't recognize it.  You should say
> RFC 3263, which is what people who've implemented SIP recognize.
Actually RFC 3263 refers to RFC 2782, so those people should be familiar 
with RFC 3263.
>   And
> the implication is to replace, in the RFC 3263 process, the "weight"
> values in the SRV records with the "weight" values fed back from the
> servers.
We can do that, but 3263 says very little about weights. The explanation 
really is in RFC 3263
>> Yes, this is true. We are successfully using the simple algorithm
>> mentioned with DNS (where we update the weight every
>> minute). Otherwise they are algorithms that can be used to improve the
>> oscillation in the feedback chain command. We think that since we are
>> proposing a default one that works, this should be OK.
> I'd like to see some analysis and modeling to show that this
> particular updating strategy works in a wide range of operating
> situations.  Otherwise ... unpleasant ... surprises may happen in the
> field.
Moving forward, we'll try to do some modeling and simulations for 
different types of situations.
Otherwise, what is the "particular" updating strategy you mentioned: The 
fact that we use an existing  SIP message to convey the feedback ?
>>> But I don't see any of the needed analysis in the draft, and I
>>> don't see any indication in the draft of a realization that this
>>> analysis needs to be done.  Until that is fixed, I predict that a
>>> solution will not be found, or worse, a solution that appears to
>>> work on paper but does not work in practice.
>> This solution works in practice: we are using it in ALU between
>> components and nodes that are in the same NE (we currently use a
>> proprietary transport mechanism to return the weights).
> You mean it works in your one situation.
Inside one NE, we have a variable set of different types of SIP servers: 
statefull proxies, stateless proxies, Application servers, servers that 
are exposed to the users, etc.. This may help to build some confidence.
It also works between NEs with DNS, since we are updating the DNS 
weights in SRV the same way.

But yes, we' ve not proved that it could work in any situation.

Cordially,

Thierry
> Dale
> _______________________________________________
> dispatch mailing list
> dispatch@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch

-- 
-- 
Cordially,
Thierry Bessis
IMS Solution: Architecture & Product Management - ALTA Member
   Organization: ALU > Carrier group > Wireline BU > **IMS Sol Arch, SE, PdM
Alcatel-Lucent
1960 Lucent Lane - Room 6L-517
   Naperville, IL  60563  U S
   Tel/Fax: +1 630 979 7989
   Corporate IM: tbessis    - Yahoo IM:     thierry_bessis

My WEB page:   http://ihgpweb.ih.lucent.com/~tbessis/
My Calendar:   www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=new_frs3175%40yahoo.fr
ALTA Hot Line: http://alta.all.alcatel-lucent.com/hotline

Conference information:
2801 2801 (US):+1 800 771 8734 - (F):+33 800 941 674 - Access Code: 9797989
others countries see: http://all.alcatel-lucent.com/audio

Upcoming planned Business Trip: 12 April - 14 April 2011
Upcoming planned Vacation: None

--------------090201040702040308050200
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
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  <body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
    Dale, <br>
    <br>
    On 14-Mar-2011 17:20, Worley, Dale R (Dale) wrote:
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CD5674C3CD99574EBA7432465FC13C1B22246BD2FE@DC-US1MBEX4.global.avaya.com"
      type="cite">
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">From: Thierry Bessis [<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com">Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com</a>] 

If you have read my previous comments, we suggest there is no
algorithm per se: this is a measurement of the resource: If you
measure the CPU and the Memory (for example), you'll take the
smallest. It is better to smooth (with a 10s sliding window average
for instance) the number.
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">
But "If you measure the CPU and the Memory (for example), you'll take
the smallest" *is* an algorithm.  Its name is "minimum".  There are an
infinite number of other algorithms.  And you do not state in the
draft that you've chosen "minimum".
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    I agree that we need to clarify. <br>
    Memory and CPU are just typical examples of constrain resources. The
    draft should probably say: <br>
    &lt;&lt; The availability of the key Resources required to setup and
    maintain SIP sessions are measured in terms of available ratios. <br>
    The weight represents the MIN of those ratios. &gt;&gt; <br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CD5674C3CD99574EBA7432465FC13C1B22246BD2FE@DC-US1MBEX4.global.avaya.com"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">
Also, the particular smoothing chosen is not trivial, and should be
stated in the draft.
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    But the issue is that it may depends on the applications and
    situations (which is part of your point below). <br>
    For instance, in our case we found that a flat average sliding
    window over the last 10 seconds works well. But would it be always
    the case ? <br>
    May be an ascending weights average sliding window of 20s may work
    better in some other cases ? <br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CD5674C3CD99574EBA7432465FC13C1B22246BD2FE@DC-US1MBEX4.global.avaya.com"
      type="cite">
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">This is not what we have in mind: the weight should be your relative
resource usage. (0 - 100%). Using the proposed algorithm, this insure
that servers reach full capacity simultaneously (even when they have
vastly different capacities).
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">
Actually, you want the weight to be (or to be proportional) to the
*unused* portion of your resources, so that an entirely unloaded
system has maximum weight and a totally loaded system has zero weight.
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    Yes, absolutely. <br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CD5674C3CD99574EBA7432465FC13C1B22246BD2FE@DC-US1MBEX4.global.avaya.com"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">But either way, you don't state this in the draft.

And now I realize you sneaked one past me.  The draft refers to RFC
2782 in a number of places, and I didn't recognize it.  You should say
RFC 3263, which is what people who've implemented SIP recognize. </pre>
    </blockquote>
    Actually RFC 3263 refers to RFC 2782, so those people should be
    familiar with RFC 3263. <br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CD5674C3CD99574EBA7432465FC13C1B22246BD2FE@DC-US1MBEX4.global.avaya.com"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap=""> And
the implication is to replace, in the RFC 3263 process, the "weight"
values in the SRV records with the "weight" values fed back from the
servers.
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    We can do that, but 3263 says very little about weights. The
    explanation really is in RFC 3263
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CD5674C3CD99574EBA7432465FC13C1B22246BD2FE@DC-US1MBEX4.global.avaya.com"
      type="cite">
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">Yes, this is true. We are successfully using the simple algorithm
mentioned with DNS (where we update the weight every
minute). Otherwise they are algorithms that can be used to improve the
oscillation in the feedback chain command. We think that since we are
proposing a default one that works, this should be OK.
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">
I'd like to see some analysis and modeling to show that this
particular updating strategy works in a wide range of operating
situations.  Otherwise ... unpleasant ... surprises may happen in the
field.
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    Moving forward, we'll try to do some modeling and simulations for
    different types of situations. <br>
    Otherwise, what is the "particular" updating strategy you mentioned:
    The fact that we use an existing&nbsp; SIP message to convey the feedback
    ? <br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CD5674C3CD99574EBA7432465FC13C1B22246BD2FE@DC-US1MBEX4.global.avaya.com"
      type="cite">
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <pre wrap="">But I don't see any of the needed analysis in the draft, and I
don't see any indication in the draft of a realization that this
analysis needs to be done.  Until that is fixed, I predict that a
solution will not be found, or worse, a solution that appears to
work on paper but does not work in practice.
</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <pre wrap="">
This solution works in practice: we are using it in ALU between
components and nodes that are in the same NE (we currently use a
proprietary transport mechanism to return the weights).
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">
You mean it works in your one situation.
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    Inside one NE, we have a variable set of different types of SIP
    servers: statefull proxies, stateless proxies, Application servers,
    servers that are exposed to the users, etc.. This may help to build
    some confidence. <br>
    It also works between NEs with DNS, since we are updating the DNS
    weights in SRV the same way. <br>
    <br>
    But yes, we' ve not proved that it could work in any situation.&nbsp; <br>
    <br>
    Cordially, <br>
    <br>
    Thierry<br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CD5674C3CD99574EBA7432465FC13C1B22246BD2FE@DC-US1MBEX4.global.avaya.com"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">
Dale
_______________________________________________
dispatch mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dispatch@ietf.org">dispatch@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
      <meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
        http-equiv="Content-Type">
      <title>Thierry's signature</title>
      <meta content="Thierry Bessis" name="author">
      <big style="font-weight: bold;"><big><big><span
              style="font-family: French Script MT;">-- <br>
              Cordially, <br>
            </span></big></big></big><big style="font-weight: bold;"><big><big><span
              style="font-family: French Script MT;">Thierry Bessis</span></big></big></big>
      <div> </div>
      <div> </div>
      &nbsp;
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">IMS Solution: Architecture
        &amp; Product Management - ALTA Member</span><br
        style="font-family: Arial;">
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">&nbsp; Organization: ALU &gt; Carrier
        group &gt;
        Wireline BU &gt;&nbsp;</span><b> </b>IMS Sol Arch, SE, PdM<br>
      <img style="width: 242px; height: 66px;" alt="Alcatel-Lucent"
        src="cid:part1.02000304.01020705@alcatel-lucent.com"><br>
      &nbsp;
      <span style="font-family: Arial;"></span><span style="font-family:
        Arial;">1960 Lucent Lane - Room 6L-517</span><br
        style="font-family: Arial;">
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">&nbsp; Naperville, IL&nbsp;
        60563&nbsp; U
        S</span><br style="font-family: Arial;">
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">&nbsp; Tel/Fax: +1 630 979 7989</span><br
        style="font-family: Arial;">
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">&nbsp; Corporate IM:
        tbessis&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
        - Yahoo IM:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
        thierry_bessis</span><br>
      <br>
      <small>My WEB page:&nbsp;&nbsp; <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://ihgpweb.ih.lucent.com/~tbessis/">http://ihgpweb.ih.lucent.com/~tbessis/</a><br>
        My Calendar:&nbsp;&nbsp;
        <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=new_frs3175%40yahoo.fr">www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=new_frs3175%40yahoo.fr</a><br>
        ALTA Hot Line: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://alta.all.alcatel-lucent.com/hotline">http://alta.all.alcatel-lucent.com/hotline</a></small><br>
      <br>
      <small>Conference information:<br>
        2801 2801 (US):+1 800 771 8734 - (F):+33 800 941 674 - Access
        Code:
        9797989<br>
        others countries see: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://all.alcatel-lucent.com/audio">http://all.alcatel-lucent.com/audio</a></small><br>
      <br>
      <big style="font-weight: bold;"><big><span style="font-family:
            French Script MT;">Upcoming planned Business Trip:
            12 April - 14 April 2011</span></big></big><br>
      <big style="font-weight: bold;"><big><span style="font-family:
            French Script MT;">Upcoming planned Vacation: None</span></big></big>
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--------------090201040702040308050200--

From dean.willis@softarmor.com  Mon Mar 14 21:35:46 2011
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From: Dean Willis <dean.willis@softarmor.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 23:37:06 -0500
To: Jonathan Rosenberg <jdrosen@jdrosen.net>
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Cc: rtc-web@alvestrand.no, 'DISPATCH list' <dispatch@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [dispatch] Does RTC-WEB need to pick a signaling protocol?
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Oh hell no....

Really, what we need are the primitives that make a web app able to do =
things like slurp data from a microphone and send it someplace useful. =
We might also need interfaces to A/V streams (maybe even RTP), and =
mixers. We need those primitives exposed to things like Javascript. What =
we don't need is an API that turns every browser into a generic SIP UA =
capable of being reused in haphazard fashion, such that everybody and =
his chihuahua reskins their "SIP browser phone" with CSS, and every =
browser swells to the size of the Hindenberg just before the fatal =
spark.

--
Dean


From dean.willis@softarmor.com  Mon Mar 14 21:46:12 2011
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From: Dean Willis <dean.willis@softarmor.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 23:47:33 -0500
To: Dean Willis <dean.willis@softarmor.com>
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Subject: Re: [dispatch] Does RTC-WEB need to pick a signaling protocol?
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Well, THAT was an interesting time-warp.  Sorry about that. But I guess =
the sentiment still stands even if the mail was stuck in my outbox for a =
while...

On Mar 14, 2011, at 11:37 PM, Dean Willis wrote:

>=20
> Oh hell no....
>=20
> Really, what we need are the primitives that make a web app able to do =
things like slurp data from a microphone and send it someplace useful. =
We might also need interfaces to A/V streams (maybe even RTP), and =
mixers. We need those primitives exposed to things like Javascript. What =
we don't need is an API that turns every browser into a generic SIP UA =
capable of being reused in haphazard fashion, such that everybody and =
his chihuahua reskins their "SIP browser phone" with CSS, and every =
browser swells to the size of the Hindenberg just before the fatal =
spark.
>=20
> --
> Dean
>=20


From bernard_aboba@hotmail.com  Mon Mar 14 23:11:52 2011
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From: Bernard Aboba <bernard_aboba@hotmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [dispatch] [RTW] Does RTC-WEB need to pick a signaling protocol?
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No problem.  The message is indeed timeless.  Feel free to resend it every =
week or so =3B)

> From: dean.willis@softarmor.com
> Date: Mon=2C 14 Mar 2011 23:47:33 -0500
> To: dean.willis@softarmor.com
> CC: jdrosen@jdrosen.net=3B rtc-web@alvestrand.no=3B dispatch@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [RTW] [dispatch] Does RTC-WEB need to pick a signaling proto=
col?
>=20
>=20
> Well=2C THAT was an interesting time-warp.  Sorry about that. But I guess=
 the sentiment still stands even if the mail was stuck in my outbox for a w=
hile...
>=20
> On Mar 14=2C 2011=2C at 11:37 PM=2C Dean Willis wrote:
>=20
> >=20
> > Oh hell no....
> >=20
> > Really=2C what we need are the primitives that make a web app able to d=
o things like slurp data from a microphone and send it someplace useful. We=
 might also need interfaces to A/V streams (maybe even RTP)=2C and mixers. =
We need those primitives exposed to things like Javascript. What we don't n=
eed is an API that turns every browser into a generic SIP UA capable of bei=
ng reused in haphazard fashion=2C such that everybody and his chihuahua res=
kins their "SIP browser phone" with CSS=2C and every browser swells to the =
size of the Hindenberg just before the fatal spark.
> >=20
> > --
> > Dean
> >=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> RTC-Web mailing list
> RTC-Web@alvestrand.no
> http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/rtc-web
 		 	   		  =

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<html>
<head>
<style><!--
.hmmessage P
{
margin:0px=3B
padding:0px
}
body.hmmessage
{
font-size: 10pt=3B
font-family:Tahoma
}
--></style>
</head>
<body class=3D'hmmessage'>
No problem.&nbsp=3B The message is indeed timeless.&nbsp=3B Feel free to re=
send it every week or so =3B)<br><br>&gt=3B From: dean.willis@softarmor.com=
<br>&gt=3B Date: Mon=2C 14 Mar 2011 23:47:33 -0500<br>&gt=3B To: dean.willi=
s@softarmor.com<br>&gt=3B CC: jdrosen@jdrosen.net=3B rtc-web@alvestrand.no=
=3B dispatch@ietf.org<br>&gt=3B Subject: Re: [RTW] [dispatch] Does RTC-WEB =
need to pick a signaling protocol?<br>&gt=3B <br>&gt=3B <br>&gt=3B Well=2C =
THAT was an interesting time-warp.  Sorry about that. But I guess the senti=
ment still stands even if the mail was stuck in my outbox for a while...<br=
>&gt=3B <br>&gt=3B On Mar 14=2C 2011=2C at 11:37 PM=2C Dean Willis wrote:<b=
r>&gt=3B <br>&gt=3B &gt=3B <br>&gt=3B &gt=3B Oh hell no....<br>&gt=3B &gt=
=3B <br>&gt=3B &gt=3B Really=2C what we need are the primitives that make a=
 web app able to do things like slurp data from a microphone and send it so=
meplace useful. We might also need interfaces to A/V streams (maybe even RT=
P)=2C and mixers. We need those primitives exposed to things like Javascrip=
t. What we don't need is an API that turns every browser into a generic SIP=
 UA capable of being reused in haphazard fashion=2C such that everybody and=
 his chihuahua reskins their "SIP browser phone" with CSS=2C and every brow=
ser swells to the size of the Hindenberg just before the fatal spark.<br>&g=
t=3B &gt=3B <br>&gt=3B &gt=3B --<br>&gt=3B &gt=3B Dean<br>&gt=3B &gt=3B <br=
>&gt=3B <br>&gt=3B _______________________________________________<br>&gt=
=3B RTC-Web mailing list<br>&gt=3B RTC-Web@alvestrand.no<br>&gt=3B http://w=
ww.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/rtc-web<br> 		 	   		  </body>
</html>=

--_8d8344db-a323-4cd0-a2f1-46ae0c52ac4f_--

From fluffy@cisco.com  Tue Mar 15 10:41:01 2011
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Subject: [dispatch] DISPATCH Ad-HOC meetings about VIPR and RTCWeb at IETF 80
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The dispatch WG will have two ad-hoc meeting.=20

The first is discuss the technical content of the drafts related to the =
proposed VIPR WG.=20

Tentative time: VIPR's is in Tyrolka on Thursday 1300-1400

The second is to discuss the technical contents of drafts related to the =
proposed RTCWeb WG.=20

Tentative time:  RTCWeb's is  Friday 1415-1515 in the Grand Ballroom

Send Agenda requests for time in either of these to Mary and I.=20

Thanks,
Mary & Cullen



From dworley@avaya.com  Tue Mar 15 13:06:11 2011
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From: "Worley, Dale R (Dale)" <dworley@avaya.com>
To: Thierry Bessis <Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2011 16:06:22 -0400
Thread-Topic: [dispatch] SIP load balancing
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References: <4D755B9E.6030008@bell-labs.com>	<4D7566C1.40605@cisco.com> <4D756C47.1000509@bell-labs.com>	<4D7633F9.7000608@cisco.com> <4D768BEE.2060400@bell-labs.com>	<4D7698FD.4030501@cisco.com> <4D76A762.6090708@bell-labs.com>,<4D76C924.7050900@cisco.com> <CD5674C3CD99574EBA7432465FC13C1B220B5C155E@DC-US1MBEX4.global.avaya.com>, <4D77E128.8060302@alcatel-lucent.com> <CD5674C3CD99574EBA7432465FC13C1B22246BD2FE@DC-US1MBEX4.global.avaya.com>, <4D7EA694.4000308@alcatel-lucent.com>
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Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing
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________________________________________
From: Thierry Bessis [Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com]

Inside one NE, we have a variable set of different types of SIP servers: st=
atefull proxies, stateless proxies, Application servers, servers that are e=
xposed to the users, etc.. This may help to build some confidence.
_______________________________________________

Can you describe the benefits you have seen in your cluster (Network Elemen=
t) from load balancing?

Dale

From HKaplan@acmepacket.com  Tue Mar 15 13:33:08 2011
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From: Hadriel Kaplan <HKaplan@acmepacket.com>
To: Thierry Bessis <Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com>
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Cc: "dispatch@ietf.org" <dispatch@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing
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On Mar 14, 2011, at 7:36 PM, Thierry Bessis wrote:

> Inside one NE, we have a variable set of different types of SIP servers: =
statefull proxies, stateless proxies, Application servers, servers that are=
 exposed to the users, etc.. This may help to build     some confidence.=20
> It also works between NEs with DNS, since we are updating the DNS weights=
 in SRV the same way.=20
>=20
> But yes, we' ve not proved that it could work in any situation. =20

We've used the same type of solution as well, but it doesn't work in all si=
tuations (or at least not the same way).  In particular, when load-balancin=
g a farm of P-CSCF's, S-CSCF's or subscriber-access SBC's, you have to load=
-balance *subscribers* not SIP messages/transactions/calls.  In other words=
, the same subscriber/endpoint had better have all of its SIP messages go t=
o the same P-CSCF/S-CSCF/SBC, or all hell breaks loose. (there're a couple =
vendors who claim in powerpoint their *-CSCF/SBC's don't need this, but in =
practice you do, if for no other reason than troubleshooting and monitoring=
)  And since subscriber capacity/utilization is a different resource measur=
ement from CPU utilization, both sides have to be in on the game and know w=
hat mode they're in. (not that's that's a big deal)

But on sip-trunks and peering links you can load-balance per session/out-of=
-dialog-message this way.  It's just not the same thing as session/call con=
straints, which is I think what SCE is trying to get instead.

-hadriel


From Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com  Tue Mar 15 14:03:59 2011
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Message-ID: <4D7FD490.1060109@alcatel-lucent.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2011 16:05:20 -0500
From: Thierry Bessis <Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com>
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To: "Worley, Dale R (Dale)" <dworley@avaya.com>
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Cc: "dispatch@ietf.org" <dispatch@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing
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Dale,

What do you mean by "from" load balancing ?

Our main benefit is that our resource utilization (essentially CPU and 
Memory as we discussed) is very good. We see that the system effectively 
load the cluster evenly, and returns to its equilibrium even after some 
"disrupting" events occurred. Such event are for example:  temporary 
loss and then return of a node, or a temporary overload of some nodes 
due to administrative work, or even the dynamic installation of some new 
components on existing hosts. Also, we are dealing with remote nodes 
which are NOT getting (or not willing to use)  the weights and may 
concentrate the traffic unevenly. Then, our mechanism will fix the issue 
using the "good behavior" of nodes which are using the weights to 
re-balance the cluster.

Since all our nodes get overloaded at roughly the same time, we know we 
have roughly the best possible throughput. In addition, based on this 
knowledge, we decide to never re-transmit any message in the same 
cluster when we get the "shedding" signal back: This is a huge advantage.

Does that answer your question ?

Cordially,

Thierry


On 15-Mar-2011 15:06, Worley, Dale R (Dale) wrote:
> ________________________________________
> From: Thierry Bessis [Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com]
>
> Inside one NE, we have a variable set of different types of SIP servers: statefull proxies, stateless proxies, Application servers, servers that are exposed to the users, etc.. This may help to build some confidence.
> _______________________________________________
>
> Can you describe the benefits you have seen in your cluster (Network Element) from load balancing?
>
> Dale

-- 
-- 
Cordially,
Thierry Bessis
IMS Solution: Architecture & Product Management - ALTA Member
   Organization: ALU > Carrier group > Wireline BU > **IMS Sol Arch, SE, PdM
Alcatel-Lucent
1960 Lucent Lane - Room 6L-517
   Naperville, IL  60563  U S
   Tel/Fax: +1 630 979 7989
   Corporate IM: tbessis

Engage: https://engage.alcatel-lucent.com/people/tbessis
My Calendar:   www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=new_frs3175%40yahoo.fr
ALTA Hot Line: http://alta.all.alcatel-lucent.com/hotline

Conference information:
2801 2801 (US):+1 800 771 8734 - (F):+33 800 941 674 - Access Code: 9797989
others countries see: http://all.alcatel-lucent.com/audio

Upcoming planned Business Trip: 12 April - 14 April 2011
Upcoming planned Vacation: None

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    Dale, <br>
    <br>
    What do you mean by "from" load balancing ? <br>
    <br>
    Our main benefit is that our resource utilization (essentially CPU
    and Memory as we discussed) is very good. We see that the system
    effectively load the cluster evenly, and returns to its equilibrium
    even after some "disrupting" events occurred. Such event are for
    example:&nbsp; temporary loss and then return of a node, or a temporary
    overload of some nodes due to administrative work, or even the
    dynamic installation of some new components on existing hosts. Also,
    we are dealing with remote nodes which are NOT getting (or not
    willing to use)&nbsp; the weights and may concentrate the traffic
    unevenly. Then, our mechanism will fix the issue using the "good
    behavior" of nodes which are using the weights to re-balance the
    cluster. <br>
    <br>
    Since all our nodes get overloaded at roughly the same time, we know
    we have roughly the best possible throughput. In addition, based on
    this knowledge, we decide to never re-transmit any message in the
    same cluster when we get the "shedding" signal back: This is a huge
    advantage. <br>
    <br>
    Does that answer your question ?<br>
    <br>
    Cordially, <br>
    <br>
    Thierry<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    On 15-Mar-2011 15:06, Worley, Dale R (Dale) wrote:
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CD5674C3CD99574EBA7432465FC13C1B22246BD304@DC-US1MBEX4.global.avaya.com"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">________________________________________
From: Thierry Bessis [<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com">Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com</a>]

Inside one NE, we have a variable set of different types of SIP servers: statefull proxies, stateless proxies, Application servers, servers that are exposed to the users, etc.. This may help to build some confidence.
_______________________________________________

Can you describe the benefits you have seen in your cluster (Network Element) from load balancing?

Dale
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
      <meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
        http-equiv="Content-Type">
      <title>Thierry's signature</title>
      <meta content="Thierry Bessis" name="author">
      <big style="font-weight: bold;"><big><big><span
              style="font-family: French Script MT;">-- <br>
              Cordially, <br>
            </span></big></big></big><big style="font-weight: bold;"><big><big><span
              style="font-family: French Script MT;">Thierry Bessis</span></big></big></big>
      <div> </div>
      <div> </div>
      &nbsp;
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">IMS Solution: Architecture
        &amp; Product Management - ALTA Member</span><br
        style="font-family: Arial;">
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">&nbsp; Organization: ALU &gt; Carrier
        group &gt;
        Wireline BU &gt;&nbsp;</span><b> </b>IMS Sol Arch, SE, PdM<br>
      <img style="width: 242px; height: 66px;" alt="Alcatel-Lucent"
        src="cid:part1.00030107.02030703@alcatel-lucent.com"><br>
      &nbsp;
      <span style="font-family: Arial;"></span><span style="font-family:
        Arial;">1960 Lucent Lane - Room 6L-517</span><br
        style="font-family: Arial;">
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">&nbsp; Naperville, IL&nbsp;
        60563&nbsp; U
        S</span><br style="font-family: Arial;">
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">&nbsp; Tel/Fax: +1 630 979 7989</span><br
        style="font-family: Arial;">
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">&nbsp; Corporate IM:
        tbessis</span><br>
      <small><br>
      </small>Engage: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://engage.alcatel-lucent.com/people/tbessis">https://engage.alcatel-lucent.com/people/tbessis</a><br>
      <small>My Calendar:&nbsp;&nbsp;
        <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=new_frs3175%40yahoo.fr">www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=new_frs3175%40yahoo.fr</a><br>
        ALTA Hot Line: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://alta.all.alcatel-lucent.com/hotline">http://alta.all.alcatel-lucent.com/hotline</a></small><br>
      <br>
      <small>Conference information:<br>
        2801 2801 (US):+1 800 771 8734 - (F):+33 800 941 674 - Access
        Code:
        9797989<br>
        others countries see: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://all.alcatel-lucent.com/audio">http://all.alcatel-lucent.com/audio</a></small><br>
      <br>
      <big style="font-weight: bold;"><big><span style="font-family:
            French Script MT;">Upcoming planned Business Trip:
            12 April - 14 April 2011</span></big></big><br>
      <big style="font-weight: bold;"><big><span style="font-family:
            French Script MT;">Upcoming planned Vacation: None</span></big></big>
    </div>
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Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2011 16:44:50 -0500
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Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing
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Kaplan,

On 15-Mar-2011 15:34, Hadriel Kaplan wrote:
> On Mar 14, 2011, at 7:36 PM, Thierry Bessis wrote:
>
>> Inside one NE, we have a variable set of different types of SIP servers: statefull proxies, stateless proxies, Application servers, servers that are exposed to the users, etc.. This may help to build     some confidence.
>> It also works between NEs with DNS, since we are updating the DNS weights in SRV the same way.
>>
>> But yes, we' ve not proved that it could work in any situation.
> We've used the same type of solution as well, but it doesn't work in all situations (or at least not the same way).  In particular, when load-balancing a farm of P-CSCF's, S-CSCF's or subscriber-access SBC's, you have to load-balance *subscribers* not SIP messages/transactions/calls.  In other words, the same subscriber/endpoint had better have all of its SIP messages go to the same P-CSCF/S-CSCF/SBC, or all hell breaks loose. (there're a couple vendors who claim in powerpoint their *-CSCF/SBC's don't need this, but in practice you do, if for no other reason than troubleshooting and monitoring)  And since subscriber capacity/utilization is a different resource measurement from CPU utilization, both sides have to be in on the game and know what mode they're in. (not that's that's a big deal)
This is a good point. We are doing the same thing as you describe: we 
have a farm of P-CSCF and the subcriber/endpoint MUST go to the same 
P-CSCF node once it is registered. But we still successfully use the 
same principle. We have multiple types of settings: P-CSCF and other 
CSCF (like I-CSCF, ...  S-CSCF) running on the same host (and sharing 
the resources), or hosts that are used only for P-CSCF.
It works in both cases because we use the Memory also in the weight. The 
memory is sensitive to both the number of simultaneous instances, and 
the number of registrations. In components that maintains registries 
(such as P-CSCF), additional memory will be consumed by the 
registrations and the memory will become the leading factor in the weights.

So basically what happens is that the weight in DNS will reflect the 
current number of subscribers, and less subscribers will register to 
P-CSCF that have more registrations. (I'm talking about DNS here, 
because of course our SIP load balancing feedback technique will not 
work with subscribers, nor would SCE ! ).

Some people have argued that this is not optimal, since you may have lot 
of CPU available and very few memory, so you could process lot of 
transactions but still your weight is low, so you are not utilizing you 
CPU wisely. In practice though it is still optimal: statistically call 
volumes and registrations go together: we are using such big capacity 
numbers that this is verified.

Cordially,

Thierry

> But on sip-trunks and peering links you can load-balance per session/out-of-dialog-message this way.  It's just not the same thing as session/call constraints, which is I think what SCE is trying to get instead.
>
> -hadriel
>
> _______________________________________________
> dispatch mailing list
> dispatch@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch

-- 
-- 
Cordially,
Thierry Bessis
IMS Solution: Architecture & Product Management - ALTA Member
   Organization: ALU > Carrier group > Wireline BU > **IMS Sol Arch, SE, PdM
Alcatel-Lucent
1960 Lucent Lane - Room 6L-517
   Naperville, IL  60563  U S
   Tel/Fax: +1 630 979 7989
   Corporate IM: tbessis

Engage: https://engage.alcatel-lucent.com/people/tbessis
My Calendar:   www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=new_frs3175%40yahoo.fr
ALTA Hot Line: http://alta.all.alcatel-lucent.com/hotline

Conference information:
2801 2801 (US):+1 800 771 8734 - (F):+33 800 941 674 - Access Code: 9797989
others countries see: http://all.alcatel-lucent.com/audio

Upcoming planned Business Trip: 12 April - 14 April 2011
Upcoming planned Vacation: None

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  <body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
    Kaplan, <br>
    <br>
    On 15-Mar-2011 15:34, Hadriel Kaplan wrote:
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:4B0458E2-D1D3-4B0D-99E2-E614C4686043@acmepacket.com"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">
On Mar 14, 2011, at 7:36 PM, Thierry Bessis wrote:

</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">Inside one NE, we have a variable set of different types of SIP servers: statefull proxies, stateless proxies, Application servers, servers that are exposed to the users, etc.. This may help to build     some confidence. 
It also works between NEs with DNS, since we are updating the DNS weights in SRV the same way. 

But yes, we' ve not proved that it could work in any situation.  
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">
We've used the same type of solution as well, but it doesn't work in all situations (or at least not the same way).  In particular, when load-balancing a farm of P-CSCF's, S-CSCF's or subscriber-access SBC's, you have to load-balance *subscribers* not SIP messages/transactions/calls.  In other words, the same subscriber/endpoint had better have all of its SIP messages go to the same P-CSCF/S-CSCF/SBC, or all hell breaks loose. (there're a couple vendors who claim in powerpoint their *-CSCF/SBC's don't need this, but in practice you do, if for no other reason than troubleshooting and monitoring)  And since subscriber capacity/utilization is a different resource measurement from CPU utilization, both sides have to be in on the game and know what mode they're in. (not that's that's a big deal)
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    This is a good point. We are doing the same thing as you describe:
    we have a farm of P-CSCF and the subcriber/endpoint MUST go to the
    same P-CSCF node once it is registered. But we still successfully
    use the same principle. We have multiple types of settings: P-CSCF
    and other CSCF (like I-CSCF, ...&nbsp; S-CSCF) running on the same host
    (and sharing the resources), or hosts that are used only for P-CSCF.
    <br>
    It works in both cases because we use the Memory also in the weight.
    The memory is sensitive to both the number of simultaneous
    instances, and the number of registrations. In components that
    maintains registries (such as P-CSCF), additional memory will be
    consumed by the registrations and the memory will become the leading
    factor in the weights.<br>
    <br>
    So basically what happens is that the weight in DNS will reflect the
    current number of subscribers, and less subscribers will register to
    P-CSCF that have more registrations. (I'm talking about DNS here,
    because of course our SIP load balancing feedback technique will not
    work with subscribers, nor would SCE ! ).&nbsp; <br>
    <br>
    Some people have argued that this is not optimal, since you may have
    lot of CPU available and very few memory, so you could process lot
    of transactions but still your weight is low, so you are not
    utilizing you CPU wisely. In practice though it is still optimal:
    statistically call volumes and registrations go together: we are
    using such big capacity numbers that this is verified.<br>
    <br>
    Cordially, <br>
    <br>
    Thierry<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:4B0458E2-D1D3-4B0D-99E2-E614C4686043@acmepacket.com"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">
But on sip-trunks and peering links you can load-balance per session/out-of-dialog-message this way.  It's just not the same thing as session/call constraints, which is I think what SCE is trying to get instead.

-hadriel

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</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
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      <title>Thierry's signature</title>
      <meta content="Thierry Bessis" name="author">
      <big style="font-weight: bold;"><big><big><span
              style="font-family: French Script MT;">-- <br>
              Cordially, <br>
            </span></big></big></big><big style="font-weight: bold;"><big><big><span
              style="font-family: French Script MT;">Thierry Bessis</span></big></big></big>
      <div> </div>
      <div> </div>
      &nbsp;
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">IMS Solution: Architecture
        &amp; Product Management - ALTA Member</span><br
        style="font-family: Arial;">
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">&nbsp; Organization: ALU &gt; Carrier
        group &gt;
        Wireline BU &gt;&nbsp;</span><b> </b>IMS Sol Arch, SE, PdM<br>
      <img style="width: 242px; height: 66px;" alt="Alcatel-Lucent"
        src="cid:part1.05030307.07010407@alcatel-lucent.com"><br>
      &nbsp;
      <span style="font-family: Arial;"></span><span style="font-family:
        Arial;">1960 Lucent Lane - Room 6L-517</span><br
        style="font-family: Arial;">
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">&nbsp; Naperville, IL&nbsp;
        60563&nbsp; U
        S</span><br style="font-family: Arial;">
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">&nbsp; Tel/Fax: +1 630 979 7989</span><br
        style="font-family: Arial;">
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">&nbsp; Corporate IM:
        tbessis</span><br>
      <small><br>
      </small>Engage: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://engage.alcatel-lucent.com/people/tbessis">https://engage.alcatel-lucent.com/people/tbessis</a><br>
      <small>My Calendar:&nbsp;&nbsp;
        <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=new_frs3175%40yahoo.fr">www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=new_frs3175%40yahoo.fr</a><br>
        ALTA Hot Line: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://alta.all.alcatel-lucent.com/hotline">http://alta.all.alcatel-lucent.com/hotline</a></small><br>
      <br>
      <small>Conference information:<br>
        2801 2801 (US):+1 800 771 8734 - (F):+33 800 941 674 - Access
        Code:
        9797989<br>
        others countries see: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://all.alcatel-lucent.com/audio">http://all.alcatel-lucent.com/audio</a></small><br>
      <br>
      <big style="font-weight: bold;"><big><span style="font-family:
            French Script MT;">Upcoming planned Business Trip:
            12 April - 14 April 2011</span></big></big><br>
      <big style="font-weight: bold;"><big><span style="font-family:
            French Script MT;">Upcoming planned Vacation: None</span></big></big>
    </div>
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Thread-Topic: [dispatch] SIP load balancing
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From: "Parthasarathi R (partr)" <partr@cisco.com>
To: "Thierry Bessis" <Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com>
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Thierry,
=20
Please read inline.
=20
Thanks
Partha

________________________________

From: Thierry Bessis [mailto:Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com]=20
Sent: Friday, March 11, 2011 9:36 PM
To: Parthasarathi R (partr)
Cc: Paul E. Jones; dispatch@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing


Paul,=20


=09
	For instance, with our approach, it is fundamental that the
weight represents a "Relative" occupation, and not an absolute capacity.

	<Partha> The question is how to perform the "relative" operation
without until understanding the capacity of the peer devices. Say Load
balancer has 3 devices: 2 devices with 1x capacity and 1 device with 2x
capacity. Here all devices will be able to provide the "relative" value
without understanding the capacity of the other device. </Partha>
=09
	The first reason is that we found that loading continuously all
the servers at the same utilization rate (same percentage) is the
optimal way of loading a cluster. (We can discuss that if not agreed).=20
	<Partha> I agree that same utilization rate is the optimal way
but the question is how to achieve it. =20
=09

Thierry>> we are on line on this one ! :-)=20


	Round robin algorithm works in case all devices have same
capacity and same amount of load per call.

Thierry >> Yes I agree it would work in this case. The reason we are not
using it is that in the IMS network (where we are already using those
principles), this is not the case: Devices do not have the same capacity
because they are on different hardware, or (more often) because they are
sharing resources with other devices that are doing different things at
different moments. (which provide a huge resource saving !). The result
is that it's impossible for any device to calculate its own capacity "in
isolation": It would need to know exactly which other devices are
sharing the same resources, their resource usage, and what they are
doing at any time: an operational nightmare which would break all the
software isolation rules ! :-) . In addition, we sometime shutdown some
devices and re-enable them later, (or we grow more devices in the
cluster): Round robin does not work at all in this case.=20



	In reality, there are multiple varying factor like call
duration, different vareity of platform within the cluster (say
Generation-1 10 devices and Generation-2 5 devies), different resource
usage for the call, rate at which calls generation. </Partha>

Thierry>>  yes !=20


	=20
	The second reason is that a relative occupation is very easy to
derive from information already available: any system knows where it is
in terms of CPU or Memory usage.
	=20
	<Partha> Converting CPU or Memory to weight is not explained
your draft. It is the real algorithm which needs lot of discussion.
Because preparing the mapping between CPU & Memory to weight will be
mind-blogging activity </Partha>

Thierry>> We could be more explicit, but should we ? (see next
paragraph). Memory and CPU are just the two most obvious examples or
resources that you need to process sessions. For instance, some of our
servers have a fixed amount of sessions registers (for instance 50 000).
In this case, the weight also reflects that. The algorithm we use for
weights is very simple: this is the smallest remaining (in percentage)
of each resource that is (1) Required to process a call, (2) Scarce
(not infinite). Let's consider the following system:=20
The server has 70% of its memory available for calls, an average of 30%
CPU usage (average over the last 10s for instance), and 40% of its
registers available (remember that those resources may be shared by
other components or devices for any other usage: it does not matter).=20
Then the weight at this moment is MIN (70, 30, 40) =3D 30%. You then =
need
to normalize this weight to match the weight range (an INT ? )=20

Now we are not saying that everybody should calculate their weight like
that. What is important is that the weight reflects your current
relative capacity. In our case, this "algorithm" balances the load of
our servers very well. Now if you use a server that has a fixed amount
of resources and that is dimensioned to process let's say 50 000
sessions, at a pace of 100 session/s, then you could probably derive a
weight that would depend on both your count of sessions left, and your
current rate of session/s. =20
=20
<Partha> In case every device calculate its own algorithm for weight,
then weight from one device may not same as other device. Say dev1 takes
Min(CPU, Mem, DSP) then weight will be calculated as Min (70, 40, 30) =
=3D
30% and another device dev2 calculates Min (CPU, Mem) then weight will
be Min (70, 40) =3D 40% even though they are equally loaded. It is very
important to have the common unit to solve this issue </Partha> =20

	=20
	 In contrast, deriving a left capacity in terms of remaining
sessions can be difficult: Host can be used by different applications
and perform different duties, which can change over the day, all of them
impacting their true capacity at a certain moment. Beside, as already
discussed, different sessions require different resources, so there is a
whole complication of dealing with a multitude of call profiles, that
(again) are not even constant over the day.
=09
	Also, we do not want to derive some shedding decision from the
weight.
	=20
	<Partha>  In case you specify, IETF SoC does not allow and so we
want another value, I think that we are in same page.

Thierry>> we are on the same page. I thought you suggested to use the
same value. =20
=20

	If not, I could not understand your argument. As you mentioned,
all system will know CPU or memory usage and it is possible to come up
the static or refreshable value saying that load shed has to happen when
85% of CPU utilization or 90% of memory utilization. The different
between our proposal is that there is no need of two value per message
instead 1 value in each message & 1 value is static or in periodic
manner  </Partha>

Thierry>> We use a single value: see the example above. =20
<Partha> I'm proposing is to use single real time value with units like
number of dialog and exchange the threshold (max dialog) using some
other static interface. Let overload decides how to reduce or when to
shed the load based on this information. The advantage in this mechanism
is that only one real time value is required between entities.
 =20
In your proposed solution, "weight" as one value for load balancing and
"oc" as another value for overload shedding. Pls correct me incase I
misunderstand something here </Partha>=20


--

--=20
Cordially,=20
Thierry Bessis=20
  IMS Solution: Architecture & Product Management - ALTA Member
  Organization: ALU > Carrier group > Wireline BU >  IMS Sol Arch, SE,
PdM
=20
  1960 Lucent Lane - Room 6L-517
  Naperville, IL  60563  U S
  Tel/Fax: +1 630 979 7989
  Corporate IM: tbessis    - Yahoo IM:     thierry_bessis

My WEB page:   http://ihgpweb.ih.lucent.com/~tbessis/
My Calendar:   =
www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=3Dnew_frs3175%40yahoo.fr
ALTA Hot Line: http://alta.all.alcatel-lucent.com/hotline

Conference information:
2801 2801 (US):+1 800 771 8734 - (F):+33 800 941 674 - Access Code:
9797989
others countries see: http://all.alcatel-lucent.com/audio

Upcoming planned Business Trip: 12 April - 14 April 2011
Upcoming planned Vacation: None=20

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<HTML><HEAD><TITLE></TITLE>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff text=3D#000000>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D856275612-16032011><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2 face=3DArial>Thierry,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D856275612-16032011><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2 face=3DArial></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D856275612-16032011><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2 face=3DArial>Please read inline.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D856275612-16032011><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2 face=3DArial></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D856275612-16032011><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2 face=3DArial>Thanks</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D856275612-16032011><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2 face=3DArial>Partha</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV dir=3Dltr lang=3Den-us class=3DOutlookMessageHeader align=3Dleft>
<HR tabIndex=3D-1>
<FONT size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><B>From:</B> Thierry Bessis=20
[mailto:Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, =
March 11,=20
2011 9:36 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Parthasarathi R (partr)<BR><B>Cc:</B> Paul E. =
Jones;=20
dispatch@ietf.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dispatch] SIP load=20
balancing<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>Paul, <BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
cite=3Dmid:A11921905DA1564D9BCF64A6430A62390293A694@XMB-BGL-411.cisco.com=
=20
type=3D"cite">
  <DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2 face=3DArial></FONT><BR>For =
instance, with our=20
  approach, it is fundamental that the weight represents a "Relative"=20
  occupation, and not an absolute capacity. </DIV>
  <DIV>&lt;Partha&gt; The question is how to perform the "relative" =
operation=20
  without until understanding the capacity&nbsp;of the peer devices. Say =
Load=20
  balancer has&nbsp;3 devices: 2 devices with 1x capacity and 1 device =
with 2x=20
  capacity. Here all devices will be able to provide the "relative" =
value=20
  without understanding the capacity of the other=20
  device.&nbsp;&lt;/Partha&gt;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2 face=3DArial></FONT><BR>The first =
reason is that=20
  we found that loading continuously all the servers at the same =
utilization=20
  rate (same percentage) is the optimal way of loading a cluster. (We =
can=20
  discuss that if not agreed). </DIV>
  <DIV>&lt;Partha&gt; I agree&nbsp;that same utilization rate is the =
optimal way=20
  but the question is how to achieve it.&nbsp;=20
<BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>Thierry&gt;&gt; we are on line on this one ! =
<SPAN=20
class=3Dmoz-smiley-s1><SPAN>:-) </SPAN></SPAN><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
cite=3Dmid:A11921905DA1564D9BCF64A6430A62390293A694@XMB-BGL-411.cisco.com=
=20
type=3D"cite">
  <DIV>Round robin algorithm works in case all devices have same =
capacity and=20
  same amount of load per call.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>Thierry &gt;&gt; Yes I =
agree it=20
would work in this case. The reason we are not using it is that in the =
IMS=20
network (where we are already using those principles), this is not the =
case:=20
Devices do not have the same capacity because they are on different =
hardware, or=20
(more often) because they are sharing resources with other devices that =
are=20
doing different things at different moments. (which provide a huge =
resource=20
saving !). The result is that it's impossible for any device to =
calculate its=20
own capacity "in isolation": It would need to know exactly which other =
devices=20
are sharing the same resources, their resource usage, and what they are =
doing at=20
any time: an operational nightmare which would break all the software =
isolation=20
rules ! <SPAN class=3Dmoz-smiley-s1><SPAN>:-) </SPAN></SPAN>. In =
addition, we=20
sometime shutdown some devices and re-enable them later, (or we grow =
more=20
devices in the cluster): Round robin does not work at all in this case. =
<BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
cite=3Dmid:A11921905DA1564D9BCF64A6430A62390293A694@XMB-BGL-411.cisco.com=
=20
type=3D"cite">
  <DIV>In reality, there are multiple varying factor like&nbsp;call =
duration,=20
  different vareity of platform within the cluster (say Generation-1 10 =
devices=20
  and Generation-2 5 devies), different resource usage for the call, =
rate at=20
  which calls generation. =
&lt;/Partha&gt;</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>Thierry&gt;&gt;&nbsp;=20
yes ! <BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
cite=3Dmid:A11921905DA1564D9BCF64A6430A62390293A694@XMB-BGL-411.cisco.com=
=20
type=3D"cite">
  <DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2 face=3DArial></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>The second reason is that a relative occupation is very easy to =
derive=20
  from information already available: any system knows where it is in =
terms of=20
  CPU or Memory usage.</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2 face=3DArial></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>&lt;Partha&gt; Converting CPU or Memory to weight is not =
explained your=20
  draft. It is the real algorithm which needs lot of discussion. Because =

  preparing the mapping between CPU &amp; Memory to weight will&nbsp;be=20
  mind-blogging activity&nbsp;&lt;/Partha&gt;</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>Thierry&gt;&gt; We could be more explicit, but should we ? (see =
next=20
paragraph). Memory and CPU are just the two most obvious examples or =
resources=20
that you need to process sessions. For instance, some of our servers =
have a=20
fixed amount of sessions registers (for instance 50 000). In this case, =
the=20
weight also reflects that. The algorithm we use for weights is very =
simple: this=20
is the smallest remaining (in percentage) of each resource that is (1) =
Required=20
to process a call, (2) Scarce&nbsp; (not infinite). Let's consider the =
following=20
system: <BR>The server has 70% of its memory available for calls, an =
average of=20
30% CPU usage (average over the last 10s for instance), and 40% of its =
registers=20
available (remember that those resources may be shared by other =
components or=20
devices for any other usage: it does not matter). <BR>Then the weight at =
this=20
moment is MIN (70, 30, 40) =3D 30%. You then need to normalize this =
weight to=20
match the weight range (an INT ? ) <BR><BR>Now we are not saying that =
everybody=20
should calculate their weight like that. What is important is that the =
weight=20
reflects your current <U>relative</U> capacity. In our case, this =
"algorithm"=20
balances the load of our servers very well. Now if you use a server that =
has a=20
fixed amount of resources and that is dimensioned to process let's say =
50 000=20
sessions, at a pace of 100 session/s, then you could probably derive a =
weight=20
that would depend on both your count of sessions left, and your current =
rate of=20
session/s.&nbsp;<SPAN class=3D856275612-16032011><FONT color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2=20
face=3DArial>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D856275612-16032011><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2=20
face=3DArial></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D856275612-16032011><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2=20
face=3DArial>&lt;Partha&gt;&nbsp;In case every device calculate =
its&nbsp;own=20
algorithm for weight, then weight from one device may not same as other =
device.=20
Say dev1 takes Min(CPU, Mem, DSP)&nbsp;then&nbsp;weight will be =
calculated=20
as&nbsp;Min (70, 40, 30) =3D 30% and&nbsp;another device =
dev2&nbsp;calculates Min=20
(CPU,&nbsp;Mem)&nbsp;then weight will be Min (70, 40) =3D 40% even =
though they are=20
equally loaded. It is very important to have the common unit to solve =
this issue=20
&lt;/Partha&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
cite=3Dmid:A11921905DA1564D9BCF64A6430A62390293A694@XMB-BGL-411.cisco.com=
=20
type=3D"cite">
  <DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2 face=3DArial></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;In contrast, deriving a left capacity in terms of remaining =

  sessions can be difficult: Host can be used by different applications =
and=20
  perform different duties, which can change over the day, all of them =
impacting=20
  their true capacity at a certain moment. Beside, as already discussed, =

  different sessions require different resources, so there is a whole=20
  complication of dealing with a multitude of call profiles, that =
(again) are=20
  not even constant over the day.<BR><BR>Also, we do not want to derive =
some=20
  shedding decision from the weight.</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2 face=3DArial></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>&lt;Partha&gt;&nbsp; In case you specify, IETF SoC does not allow =
and so=20
  we want another value, I think that we are in same =
page.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>Thierry&gt;&gt; we are on the same page. I thought you suggested to =
use the=20
same value.&nbsp;<SPAN class=3D856275612-16032011><FONT color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2=20
face=3DArial>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D856275612-16032011><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2=20
face=3DArial></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
cite=3Dmid:A11921905DA1564D9BCF64A6430A62390293A694@XMB-BGL-411.cisco.com=
=20
type=3D"cite">
  <DIV>If not, I could not understand&nbsp;your argument.&nbsp;As you =
mentioned,=20
  all system will know CPU or memory usage and it is possible to come up =
the=20
  static or refreshable value saying that load shed has to happen when =
85% of=20
  CPU utilization or&nbsp;90% of memory utilization. The different =
between our=20
  proposal&nbsp;is that there is no need&nbsp;of two&nbsp;value per=20
  message&nbsp;instead 1 value in each message &amp; 1&nbsp;value is =
static or=20
  in periodic manner&nbsp;&nbsp;&lt;/Partha&gt;</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>Thierry&gt;&gt; We use a single value: see the example =
above.&nbsp;<SPAN=20
class=3D856275612-16032011><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2=20
face=3DArial>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D856275612-16032011><SPAN =
class=3D856275612-16032011><FONT=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2 face=3DArial>&lt;Partha&gt;&nbsp;I'm =
proposing&nbsp;is to use=20
single&nbsp;real time value with units like&nbsp;number of dialog and =
exchange=20
the threshold&nbsp;(max dialog) using some other static=20
interface.</FONT>&nbsp;<FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2 face=3DArial>Let =
overload=20
decides how to reduce or when to shed the load based on this =
information. The=20
advantage in this mechanism is that only one real time value is required =
between=20
entities.</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D856275612-16032011><SPAN=20
class=3D856275612-16032011>&nbsp;</SPAN>&nbsp;</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D856275612-16032011><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2 =
face=3DArial>In=20
your proposed solution,&nbsp;"weight"&nbsp;as one value for load =
balancing and=20
"oc" as another value for overload shedding. Pls correct me incase I=20
misunderstand something here =
&lt;/Partha&gt;</FONT>&nbsp;</SPAN><BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=3Dmoz-signature>--<BR>
<META name=3Dauthor content=3D"Thierry Bessis"><BIG=20
style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold"><BIG><BIG><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: French Script MT">-- <BR>Cordially,=20
<BR></SPAN></BIG></BIG></BIG><BIG style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: =
bold"><BIG><BIG><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: French Script MT">Thierry =
Bessis</SPAN></BIG></BIG></BIG>=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>&nbsp; <SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial">IMS Solution: =
Architecture=20
&amp; Product Management - ALTA Member</SPAN><BR=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp; =
Organization:=20
ALU &gt; Carrier group &gt; Wireline BU &gt;&nbsp;</SPAN><B> </B>IMS Sol =
Arch,=20
SE, PdM<BR><IMG style=3D"WIDTH: 242px; HEIGHT: 66px" =
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src=3D"cid:856275612@16032011-2B7C"><BR>&nbsp; <SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN><SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">1960 Lucent=20
Lane - Room 6L-517</SPAN><BR style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp; Naperville, IL&nbsp; 60563&nbsp; U =
S</SPAN><BR=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp; =
Tel/Fax: +1=20
630 979 7989</SPAN><BR style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp; Corporate IM: =
tbessis&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -=20
Yahoo IM:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; thierry_bessis</SPAN><BR><BR><SMALL>My =
WEB=20
page:&nbsp;&nbsp; <A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-freetext=20
href=3D"http://ihgpweb.ih.lucent.com/~tbessis/">http://ihgpweb.ih.lucent.=
com/~tbessis/</A><BR>My=20
Calendar:&nbsp;&nbsp; <A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-abbreviated=20
href=3D"http://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=3Dnew_frs3175%40yahoo.fr=
">www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=3Dnew_frs3175%40yahoo.fr</A><BR>ALTA =

Hot Line: <A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-freetext=20
href=3D"http://alta.all.alcatel-lucent.com/hotline">http://alta.all.alcat=
el-lucent.com/hotline</A></SMALL><BR><BR><SMALL>Conference=20
information:<BR>2801 2801 (US):+1 800 771 8734 - (F):+33 800 941 674 - =
Access=20
Code: 9797989<BR>others countries see: <A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-freetext=20
href=3D"http://all.alcatel-lucent.com/audio">http://all.alcatel-lucent.co=
m/audio</A></SMALL><BR><BR><BIG=20
style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold"><BIG><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: French Script MT">Upcoming planned Business Trip: =
12 April -=20
14 April 2011</SPAN></BIG></BIG><BR><BIG style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: =
bold"><BIG><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: French Script MT">Upcoming planned Vacation:=20
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From Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com  Wed Mar 16 10:02:01 2011
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Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing
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Hi Partha,

> Thierry>> We could be more explicit, but should we ? (see next 
> paragraph). Memory and CPU are just the two most obvious examples or 
> resources that you need to process sessions. For instance, some of our 
> servers have a fixed amount of sessions registers (for instance 50 
> 000). In this case, the weight also reflects that. The algorithm we 
> use for weights is very simple: this is the smallest remaining (in 
> percentage) of each resource that is (1) Required to process a call, 
> (2) Scarce  (not infinite). Let's consider the following system:
> The server has 70% of its memory available for calls, an average of 
> 30% CPU usage (average over the last 10s for instance), and 40% of its 
> registers available (remember that those resources may be shared by 
> other components or devices for any other usage: it does not matter).
> Then the weight at this moment is MIN (70, 30, 40) = 30%. You then 
> need to normalize this weight to match the weight range (an INT ? )
>
> Now we are not saying that everybody should calculate their weight 
> like that. What is important is that the weight reflects your current 
> _relative_ capacity. In our case, this "algorithm" balances the load 
> of our servers very well. Now if you use a server that has a fixed 
> amount of resources and that is dimensioned to process let's say 50 
> 000 sessions, at a pace of 100 session/s, then you could probably 
> derive a weight that would depend on both your count of sessions left, 
> and your current rate of session/s.
> <Partha> In case every device calculate its own algorithm for weight, 
> then weight from one device may not same as other device. Say dev1 
> takes Min(CPU, Mem, DSP) then weight will be calculated as Min (70, 
> 40, 30) = 30% and another device dev2 calculates Min (CPU, Mem) then 
> weight will be Min (70, 40) = 40% even though they are equally loaded. 
> It is very important to have the common unit to solve this issue 
> </Partha>
TB >> I think here you imply that the DSP is used as a finite pool of 
bearer channels resources, and your are probably using the DSP to 
process bearers. May be you are an SBC or so. Then, it is obvious that 
you should also consider this resource as well, since you need it to 
process new sessions. So you can't say that you have 40% resource 
available to process calls if actually one of your resource needed has 
only 30% available left !
Our recommendation is that the occupation (weight) reflects the MIN of 
ANY resource that must be used for call processing and that is constrained.

I think it is on the contrary an advantage to not specify exactly how it 
is calculated, but to specify exactly what it is, or what it means 
instead (The most constrained resource ratio).
>> If not, I could not understand your argument. As you mentioned, all 
>> system will know CPU or memory usage and it is possible to come up 
>> the static or refreshable value saying that load shed has to happen 
>> when 85% of CPU utilization or 90% of memory utilization. The 
>> different between our proposal is that there is no need of two value 
>> per message instead 1 value in each message & 1 value is static or in 
>> periodic manner </Partha>
> Thierry>> We use a single value: see the example above.
> <Partha> I'm proposing is to use single real time value with units 
> like number of dialog and exchange the threshold (max dialog) using 
> some other static interface.
TB> This proposal is exactly what we tried to stay away from ! I thought 
I gave lot of arguments in this thread to explain  why working with 
dialogs is at the same time more difficult and not the most 
straightforward information to do resource based load sharing.  
Moreover, using and sharing thresholds and trying to do overload control 
as well from there is also operationally very difficult: We did that 
before and it did not work, because (inside the same company !) nobody 
never agreed about what those threshold were and how to use them. This 
is why we decided to separate load distribution and overload shedding 
(OLC provides a rejection rate, and load distribution provides a 
resource ratio). Our OLC mechanism what the starting point for Vijay's 
effort to lead the IETF OLC draft.
> Let overload decides how to reduce or when to shed the load based on 
> this information. The advantage in this mechanism is that only one 
> real time value is required between entities.
See my comment above: we tried that, and it was very difficult to come 
up with a common approach in all of our (IMS related) products.
Beside, having the destination clearly specifies the requested rejection 
rate is much more convenient and determinist than sharing "session 
available" and threshold information and letting the source node figure 
out what it really means in terms of shedding.
> In your proposed solution, "weight" as one value for load balancing 
> and "oc" as another value for overload shedding. Pls correct me incase 
> I misunderstand something here </Partha>
Yes, but the "oc"  valus is the one already proposed in the OLC draft: 
this is not in THIS proposed solution.

Cordially,

Thierry
>
> --
> -- 
> Cordially,
> Thierry Bessis IMS Solution: Architecture & Product Management - ALTA 
> Member
>   Organization: ALU > Carrier group > Wireline BU > **IMS Sol Arch, 
> SE, PdM
> Alcatel-Lucent
> 1960 Lucent Lane - Room 6L-517
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>   Tel/Fax: +1 630 979 7989
>   Corporate IM: tbessis    - Yahoo IM:     thierry_bessis
>
> My WEB page: http://ihgpweb.ih.lucent.com/~tbessis/
> My Calendar: www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=new_frs3175%40yahoo.fr
> ALTA Hot Line: http://alta.all.alcatel-lucent.com/hotline
>
> Conference information:
> 2801 2801 (US):+1 800 771 8734 - (F):+33 800 941 674 - Access Code: 
> 9797989
> others countries see: http://all.alcatel-lucent.com/audio
>
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>
>
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-- 
-- 
Cordially,
Thierry Bessis
IMS Solution: Architecture & Product Management - ALTA Member
   Organization: ALU > Carrier group > Wireline BU > **IMS Sol Arch, SE, PdM
Alcatel-Lucent
1960 Lucent Lane - Room 6L-517
   Naperville, IL  60563  U S
   Tel/Fax: +1 630 979 7989
   Corporate IM: tbessis

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Conference information:
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Upcoming planned Business Trip: 12 April - 14 April 2011
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    Hi Partha, <br>
    <br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:A11921905DA1564D9BCF64A6430A623904BE39CC@XMB-BGL-411.cisco.com"
      type="cite">
      <div>Thierry&gt;&gt; We could be more explicit, but should we ?
        (see next paragraph). Memory and CPU are just the two most
        obvious examples or resources that you need to process sessions.
        For instance, some of our servers have a fixed amount of
        sessions registers (for instance 50 000). In this case, the
        weight also reflects that. The algorithm we use for weights is
        very simple: this is the smallest remaining (in percentage) of
        each resource that is (1) Required to process a call, (2)
        Scarce&nbsp; (not infinite). Let's consider the following system: <br>
        The server has 70% of its memory available for calls, an average
        of 30% CPU usage (average over the last 10s for instance), and
        40% of its registers available (remember that those resources
        may be shared by other components or devices for any other
        usage: it does not matter). <br>
        Then the weight at this moment is MIN (70, 30, 40) = 30%. You
        then need to normalize this weight to match the weight range (an
        INT ? ) <br>
        <br>
        Now we are not saying that everybody should calculate their
        weight like that. What is important is that the weight reflects
        your current <u>relative</u> capacity. In our case, this
        "algorithm" balances the load of our servers very well. Now if
        you use a server that has a fixed amount of resources and that
        is dimensioned to process let's say 50 000 sessions, at a pace
        of 100 session/s, then you could probably derive a weight that
        would depend on both your count of sessions left, and your
        current rate of session/s.&nbsp;<span class="856275612-16032011"><font
            size="2" color="#0000ff" face="Arial">&nbsp;</font></span></div>
      <div><span class="856275612-16032011"></span>&nbsp;</div>
      <div><span class="856275612-16032011"><font size="2"
            color="#0000ff" face="Arial">&lt;Partha&gt;&nbsp;In case every
            device calculate its&nbsp;own algorithm for weight, then weight
            from one device may not same as other device. Say dev1 takes
            Min(CPU, Mem, DSP)&nbsp;then&nbsp;weight will be calculated as&nbsp;Min
            (70, 40, 30) = 30% and&nbsp;another device dev2&nbsp;calculates Min
            (CPU,&nbsp;Mem)&nbsp;then weight will be Min (70, 40) = 40% even
            though they are equally loaded. It is very important to have
            the common unit to solve this issue &lt;/Partha&gt;&nbsp; <br>
          </font></span></div>
    </blockquote>
    TB &gt;&gt; I think here you imply that the DSP is used as a finite
    pool of bearer channels resources, and your are probably using the
    DSP to process bearers. May be you are an SBC or so. Then, it is
    obvious that you should also consider this resource as well, since
    you need it to process new sessions. So you can't say that you have
    40% resource available to process calls if actually one of your
    resource needed has only 30% available left ! <br>
    Our recommendation is that the occupation (weight) reflects the MIN
    of ANY resource that must be used for call processing and that is
    constrained. <br>
    <br>
    I think it is on the contrary an advantage to not specify exactly
    how it is calculated, but to specify exactly what it is, or what it
    means instead (The most constrained resource ratio). <br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:A11921905DA1564D9BCF64A6430A623904BE39CC@XMB-BGL-411.cisco.com"
      type="cite">
      <blockquote
cite="mid:A11921905DA1564D9BCF64A6430A62390293A694@XMB-BGL-411.cisco.com"
        type="cite">
        <div>If not, I could not understand&nbsp;your argument.&nbsp;As you
          mentioned, all system will know CPU or memory usage and it is
          possible to come up the static or refreshable value saying
          that load shed has to happen when 85% of CPU utilization
          or&nbsp;90% of memory utilization. The different between our
          proposal&nbsp;is that there is no need&nbsp;of two&nbsp;value per
          message&nbsp;instead 1 value in each message &amp; 1&nbsp;value is
          static or in periodic manner&nbsp;&nbsp;&lt;/Partha&gt;</div>
      </blockquote>
      <div>Thierry&gt;&gt; We use a single value: see the example
        above.&nbsp;<span class="856275612-16032011"><font size="2"
            color="#0000ff" face="Arial">&nbsp;</font></span></div>
      <div><span class="856275612-16032011"><span
            class="856275612-16032011"><font size="2" color="#0000ff"
              face="Arial">&lt;Partha&gt;&nbsp;I'm proposing&nbsp;is to use
              single&nbsp;real time value with units like&nbsp;number of dialog
              and exchange the threshold&nbsp;(max dialog) using some other
              static interface.</font>&nbsp;</span></span></div>
    </blockquote>
    TB&gt; This proposal is exactly what we tried to stay away from ! I
    thought I gave lot of arguments in this thread to explain&nbsp; why
    working with dialogs is at the same time more difficult and not the
    most straightforward information to do resource based load sharing.&nbsp;
    Moreover, using and sharing thresholds and trying to do overload
    control as well from there is also operationally very difficult: We
    did that before and it did not work, because (inside the same
    company !) nobody never agreed about what those threshold were and
    how to use them. This is why we decided to separate load
    distribution and overload shedding (OLC provides a rejection rate,
    and load distribution provides a resource ratio). Our OLC mechanism
    what the starting point for Vijay's effort to lead the IETF OLC
    draft. <br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:A11921905DA1564D9BCF64A6430A623904BE39CC@XMB-BGL-411.cisco.com"
      type="cite">
      <div><span class="856275612-16032011"><span
            class="856275612-16032011"><font size="2" color="#0000ff"
              face="Arial">Let overload decides how to reduce or when to
              shed the load based on this information. The advantage in
              this mechanism is that only one real time value is
              required between entities.</font></span></span></div>
    </blockquote>
    See my comment above: we tried that, and it was very difficult to
    come up with a common approach in all of our (IMS related) products.
    <br>
    Beside, having the destination clearly specifies the requested
    rejection rate is much more convenient and determinist than sharing
    "session available" and threshold information and letting the source
    node figure out what it really means in terms of shedding. <br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:A11921905DA1564D9BCF64A6430A623904BE39CC@XMB-BGL-411.cisco.com"
      type="cite">
      <div><span class="856275612-16032011"><font size="2"
            color="#0000ff" face="Arial">In your proposed
            solution,&nbsp;"weight"&nbsp;as one value for load balancing and "oc"
            as another value for overload shedding. Pls correct me
            incase I misunderstand something here &lt;/Partha&gt;</font>
        </span><br>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    Yes, but the "oc"&nbsp; valus is the one already proposed in the OLC
    draft: this is not in THIS proposed solution. <br>
    <br>
    Cordially, <br>
    <br>
    Thierry<br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:A11921905DA1564D9BCF64A6430A623904BE39CC@XMB-BGL-411.cisco.com"
      type="cite">
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div class="moz-signature">--<br>
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        <big style="font-weight: bold;"><big><big><span
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                Cordially, <br>
              </span></big></big></big><big style="font-weight: bold;"><big><big><span
                style="font-family: French Script MT;">Thierry Bessis</span></big></big></big>
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          others countries see: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
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        <big style="font-weight: bold;"><big><span style="font-family:
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      </div>
      <pre wrap="">
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    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
      <meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
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      <title>Thierry's signature</title>
      <meta content="Thierry Bessis" name="author">
      <big style="font-weight: bold;"><big><big><span
              style="font-family: French Script MT;">-- <br>
              Cordially, <br>
            </span></big></big></big><big style="font-weight: bold;"><big><big><span
              style="font-family: French Script MT;">Thierry Bessis</span></big></big></big>
      <div> </div>
      <div> </div>
      &nbsp;
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">IMS Solution: Architecture
        &amp; Product Management - ALTA Member</span><br
        style="font-family: Arial;">
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">&nbsp; Organization: ALU &gt; Carrier
        group &gt;
        Wireline BU &gt;&nbsp;</span><b> </b>IMS Sol Arch, SE, PdM<br>
      <img style="width: 242px; height: 66px;" alt="Alcatel-Lucent"
        src="cid:part2.02090605.07070709@alcatel-lucent.com"><br>
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      <span style="font-family: Arial;">&nbsp; Naperville, IL&nbsp;
        60563&nbsp; U
        S</span><br style="font-family: Arial;">
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">&nbsp; Tel/Fax: +1 630 979 7989</span><br
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        Code:
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From henry.sinnreich@gmail.com  Wed Mar 16 11:53:18 2011
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Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 13:54:39 -0500
From: Henry Sinnreich <henry.sinnreich@gmail.com>
To: Cullen Jennings <fluffy@cisco.com>, DISPATCH list <dispatch@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [dispatch] New draft on RTCWeb Requirements and API draft-jennings-rtcweb-api
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Hi Cullen,

Section 3. Requirements says:
... In addition, there is a strong interest to define a TURN-like protocol
   that looks like HTTP to intermediaries, so that media can be tunneled
   over HTTP. 
...

This is very interesting and innovative.
Can you explain here a little bit?

Thanks, Henry


On 3/10/11 2:20 PM, "Cullen Jennings" <fluffy@cisco.com> wrote:

> 
> I wrote up the start of a draft on requirements.
> 
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jennings-rtcweb-api-00
> 
> I think the key thing for the key thing for IETF working is starting to think
> about the requirements and what on the on the wire protocols are that we want
> to select. I included some API definition because I found it helpful to be
> thinking about that in this draft but that would not be part of the IETF work.
> That would be work I think W3C should do. The draft also touches on the of the
> security issues for media and signaling originating from browsers.
> 
> Cullen 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> dispatch mailing list
> dispatch@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch



From adam@nostrum.com  Wed Mar 16 12:54:02 2011
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Subject: Re: [dispatch] New draft on RTCWeb Requirements and API draft-jennings-rtcweb-api
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On 3/16/11 1:54 PM, Henry Sinnreich wrote:
> Hi Cullen,
>
> Section 3. Requirements says:
> ... In addition, there is a strong interest to define a TURN-like protocol
>     that looks like HTTP to intermediaries, so that media can be tunneled
>     over HTTP.
> ...
>
> This is very interesting and innovative.
> Can you explain here a little bit?

There's already been some work in this area. See, for example:

http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3093

...and...

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dd358571%28v=prot.10%29.aspx

(I'm becoming increasingly frustrated at the inability of creating 
parodies that last; reality keeps catching up with and then surpassing 
the level of absurdity that parody generally lives at).

/a

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From: "Worley, Dale R (Dale)" <dworley@avaya.com>
To: Thierry Bessis <Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 16:13:08 -0400
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________________________________________
From: Thierry Bessis [Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com]

I agree that we need to clarify.
________________________________________

More importantly, you need to conceptualize all of these items as *choices*
that have *consequences*, and be able to say, "We *know* what the consequen=
ces
of these particular choices are."

Dale

From lorenzo@meetecho.com  Wed Mar 16 13:19:39 2011
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Subject: Re: [dispatch] New draft on RTCWeb Requirements and API draft-jennings-rtcweb-api
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On Wed, 16 Mar 2011 13:54:39 -0500
Henry Sinnreich <henry.sinnreich@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Cullen,
> 
> Section 3. Requirements says:
> ... In addition, there is a strong interest to define a TURN-like protocol
>    that looks like HTTP to intermediaries, so that media can be tunneled
>    over HTTP. 
> ...
> 
> This is very interesting and innovative.
> Can you explain here a little bit?
> 
> Thanks, Henry
> 


We implemented something like that for our system, also documented in a paper lately: basically a controller protocol that tunnels every other protocol on top of HTTP to bypass restrictive firewalls. Since it works, we were also thinking about a "lightweight" version of such protocol to only convey RTP specifically for our web interface, considering RTP is the only protocol we couldn't wrap via JavaScript so far. So I agree that such a TURN-like protocol would be a good idea for the WG.

Of course, there would be limitations and issues because of this transport, but since firewalls are there to stay, and few of them like RTP appearing "out of the blue", that's something we probably need to live with.

L.


> 
> On 3/10/11 2:20 PM, "Cullen Jennings" <fluffy@cisco.com> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > I wrote up the start of a draft on requirements.
> > 
> > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jennings-rtcweb-api-00
> > 
> > I think the key thing for the key thing for IETF working is starting to think
> > about the requirements and what on the on the wire protocols are that we want
> > to select. I included some API definition because I found it helpful to be
> > thinking about that in this draft but that would not be part of the IETF work.
> > That would be work I think W3C should do. The draft also touches on the of the
> > security issues for media and signaling originating from browsers.
> > 
> > Cullen 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > dispatch mailing list
> > dispatch@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> dispatch mailing list
> dispatch@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch


-- 
Lorenzo Miniero, COB

Meetecho s.r.l.
Web Conferencing and Collaboration Tools
http://www.meetecho.com

From dworley@avaya.com  Wed Mar 16 13:21:26 2011
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From: "Worley, Dale R (Dale)" <dworley@avaya.com>
To: Thierry Bessis <Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 16:22:08 -0400
Thread-Topic: [dispatch] SIP load balancing
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References: <4D755B9E.6030008@bell-labs.com>	<4D7566C1.40605@cisco.com> <4D756C47.1000509@bell-labs.com>	<4D7633F9.7000608@cisco.com> <4D768BEE.2060400@bell-labs.com>	<4D7698FD.4030501@cisco.com> <4D76A762.6090708@bell-labs.com>,<4D76C924.7050900@cisco.com> <CD5674C3CD99574EBA7432465FC13C1B220B5C155E@DC-US1MBEX4.global.avaya.com>, <4D77E128.8060302@alcatel-lucent.com> <CD5674C3CD99574EBA7432465FC13C1B22246BD2FE@DC-US1MBEX4.global.avaya.com>, <4D7EA694.4000308@alcatel-lucent.com> <CD5674C3CD99574EBA7432465FC13C1B22246BD304@DC-US1MBEX4.global.avaya.com>, <4D7FD490.1060109@alcatel-lucent.com>
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_______________________________________
From: Thierry Bessis [Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com]

Our main benefit is that our resource utilization (essentially CPU and Memo=
ry as we discussed) is very good. We see that the system effectively load t=
he cluster evenly, and returns to its equilibrium even after some "disrupti=
ng" events occurred. Such event are for example:  temporary loss and then r=
eturn of a node, or a temporary overload of some nodes due to administrativ=
e work, or even the dynamic installation of some new components on existing=
 hosts. Also, we are dealing with remote nodes which are NOT getting (or no=
t willing to use)  the weights and may concentrate the traffic unevenly. Th=
en, our mechanism will fix the issue using the "good behavior" of nodes whi=
ch are using the weights to re-balance the cluster.

Since all our nodes get overloaded at roughly the same time, we know we hav=
e roughly the best possible throughput. In addition, based on this knowledg=
e, we decide to never re-transmit any message in the same cluster when we g=
et the "shedding" signal back: This is a huge advantage.
________________________________________

How does this compare to the situation that obtains when using static weigh=
ts?

Dale

From petithug@acm.org  Wed Mar 16 14:19:13 2011
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Subject: Re: [dispatch] New draft on RTCWeb Requirements and API draft-jennings-rtcweb-api
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

There is already a tunneling protocol for RTP, and you cannot find more
turn-like than this: It's called TURN.  Just add an HTTP transport between the
client and the TURN server, and that's it.  I wrote an implementation (probably
4 hours of work to add this on an existing TURN server) and even an unpublished
draft of a I-D back in 2008.  The draft is probably 4 pages long without the
boilerplates (counting the Application tag for RFC 5928) - TURN is 67 pages
long, and that probably what will be needed for a "TURN-like protocol that looks
like HTTP to intermediaries".

On 03/16/2011 01:12 PM, Lorenzo Miniero wrote:
> On Wed, 16 Mar 2011 13:54:39 -0500
> Henry Sinnreich <henry.sinnreich@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> Hi Cullen,
>>
>> Section 3. Requirements says:
>> ... In addition, there is a strong interest to define a TURN-like protocol
>>    that looks like HTTP to intermediaries, so that media can be tunneled
>>    over HTTP. 
>> ...
>>
>> This is very interesting and innovative.
>> Can you explain here a little bit?
>>
>> Thanks, Henry
>>
> 
> 
> We implemented something like that for our system, also documented in a paper lately: basically a controller protocol that tunnels every other protocol on top of HTTP to bypass restrictive firewalls. Since it works, we were also thinking about a "lightweight" version of such protocol to only convey RTP specifically for our web interface, considering RTP is the only protocol we couldn't wrap via JavaScript so far. So I agree that such a TURN-like protocol would be a good idea for the WG.
> 
> Of course, there would be limitations and issues because of this transport, but since firewalls are there to stay, and few of them like RTP appearing "out of the blue", that's something we probably need to live with.
> 
> L.
> 
> 
>>
>> On 3/10/11 2:20 PM, "Cullen Jennings" <fluffy@cisco.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I wrote up the start of a draft on requirements.
>>>
>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jennings-rtcweb-api-00
>>>
>>> I think the key thing for the key thing for IETF working is starting to think
>>> about the requirements and what on the on the wire protocols are that we want
>>> to select. I included some API definition because I found it helpful to be
>>> thinking about that in this draft but that would not be part of the IETF work.
>>> That would be work I think W3C should do. The draft also touches on the of the
>>> security issues for media and signaling originating from browsers.
>>>
>>> Cullen 
>>>

- -- 
Marc Petit-Huguenin
Personal email: marc@petit-huguenin.org
Professional email: petithug@acm.org
Blog: http://blog.marc.petit-huguenin.org
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From lconroy@insensate.co.uk  Wed Mar 16 15:48:36 2011
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Subject: Re: [dispatch] DISPATCH Ad-HOC meetings about VIPR and RTCWeb at IETF 80
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Hi Cullen,
 could you clarify what exactly Dispatch is going to do in Ad-Hoc =
meetings
discussing docs that are targeted at suggested WGs that have their own =
BOFs?

Why do these need their own Ad Hoc meetings in DISPATCH -- are these =
docs so urgent
that they have to be considered in DISPATCH before their intended WGs =
have been created?

Also, the choice of Friday @ 14:15 for the "RTCWEB" chat seems kinda =
sub-optimal,
considering that's BEHAVE's traditional slot.

all the best from a puzzled,
  Lawrence

On 15 Mar 2011, at 17:45, Cullen Jennings wrote:
> The dispatch WG will have two ad-hoc meeting.=20
>=20
> The first is discuss the technical content of the drafts related to =
the proposed VIPR WG.=20
>=20
> Tentative time: VIPR's is in Tyrolka on Thursday 1300-1400
>=20
> The second is to discuss the technical contents of drafts related to =
the proposed RTCWeb WG.=20
>=20
> Tentative time:  RTCWeb's is  Friday 1415-1515 in the Grand Ballroom
>=20
> Send Agenda requests for time in either of these to Mary and I.=20
>=20
> Thanks,
> Mary & Cullen


From mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com  Wed Mar 16 16:08:45 2011
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--bcaec50166277f57af049ea1a500
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Lawrence,

There's a few reasons why we are doing these as adhocs:

1) Folks want to take advantage of the meeting week to have some additional
f2f time to hash out issues.

2) We have found that having the sessions as adhoc dispatch sessions
facilitates the former as it makes it easier to get a meeting room and adds
some structure to the meeting/discussions and clarity to the fact that these
are covered by the note well, etc.

3) While these topics have been dispatched in terms of basically deciding
how they should move forward, they're still not officially chartered and
thus the dispatching thereof is not yet complete, so it's quite reasonable
to have these topics still under the guise of dispatch until such is
completed.  We have done this for several other topics in the past.

Agreed that the time is not ideal for folks involved in BEHAVE, but really
there is no other slot that wouldn't put the activity against another RAI
WG.  BEHAVE does have two of those afternoon slots, so perhaps folks that
are critical to BEHAVE that want to participate in the adhoc can work the
chairs on arranging the agenda to facilitate such. That's something that's
been necessary for other conficts in the past, as well.

Regards,
Mary.
DISPATCH WG co-chair


On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 5:50 PM, Lawrence Conroy <lconroy@insensate.co.uk>wrote:

> Hi Cullen,
>  could you clarify what exactly Dispatch is going to do in Ad-Hoc meetings
> discussing docs that are targeted at suggested WGs that have their own
> BOFs?
>
> Why do these need their own Ad Hoc meetings in DISPATCH -- are these docs
> so urgent
> that they have to be considered in DISPATCH before their intended WGs have
> been created?
>
> Also, the choice of Friday @ 14:15 for the "RTCWEB" chat seems kinda
> sub-optimal,
> considering that's BEHAVE's traditional slot.
>
> all the best from a puzzled,
>  Lawrence
>
> On 15 Mar 2011, at 17:45, Cullen Jennings wrote:
> > The dispatch WG will have two ad-hoc meeting.
> >
> > The first is discuss the technical content of the drafts related to the
> proposed VIPR WG.
> >
> > Tentative time: VIPR's is in Tyrolka on Thursday 1300-1400
> >
> > The second is to discuss the technical contents of drafts related to the
> proposed RTCWeb WG.
> >
> > Tentative time:  RTCWeb's is  Friday 1415-1515 in the Grand Ballroom
> >
> > Send Agenda requests for time in either of these to Mary and I.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Mary & Cullen
>
> _______________________________________________
> dispatch mailing list
> dispatch@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
>

--bcaec50166277f57af049ea1a500
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
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Lawrence,<div><br></div><div>There&#39;s a few reasons why we are doing the=
se as adhocs:</div><div><br></div><div>1) Folks want to take advantage of t=
he meeting week to have some additional f2f time to hash out issues.=A0</di=
v>
<div><br></div><div>2) We have found that having the sessions as adhoc disp=
atch sessions facilitates the former as it makes it easier to get a meeting=
 room and adds some structure to the meeting/discussions and clarity to the=
 fact that these are covered by the note well, etc.=A0</div>
<div><br></div><div>3) While these topics have been dispatched in terms of =
basically deciding how they should move forward, they&#39;re still not offi=
cially chartered and thus the dispatching thereof is not yet complete, so i=
t&#39;s quite reasonable to have these topics still under the guise of disp=
atch until such is completed. =A0We have done this for several other topics=
 in the past.=A0</div>
<div><br></div><div>Agreed that the time is not ideal for folks involved in=
 BEHAVE, but really there is no other slot that wouldn&#39;t put the activi=
ty against another RAI WG. =A0BEHAVE does have two of those afternoon slots=
, so perhaps folks that are critical to BEHAVE that want to participate in =
the adhoc can work the chairs on arranging the agenda to facilitate such. T=
hat&#39;s something that&#39;s been necessary for other conficts in the pas=
t, as well.=A0</div>
<div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Mary.</div><div>DISPATCH WG co-chair=
</div><div><br></div><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Mar 16, 20=
11 at 5:50 PM, Lawrence Conroy <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lcon=
roy@insensate.co.uk">lconroy@insensate.co.uk</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">Hi Cullen,<br>
=A0could you clarify what exactly Dispatch is going to do in Ad-Hoc meeting=
s<br>
discussing docs that are targeted at suggested WGs that have their own BOFs=
?<br>
<br>
Why do these need their own Ad Hoc meetings in DISPATCH -- are these docs s=
o urgent<br>
that they have to be considered in DISPATCH before their intended WGs have =
been created?<br>
<br>
Also, the choice of Friday @ 14:15 for the &quot;RTCWEB&quot; chat seems ki=
nda sub-optimal,<br>
considering that&#39;s BEHAVE&#39;s traditional slot.<br>
<br>
all the best from a puzzled,<br>
 =A0Lawrence<br>
<div><div></div><div class=3D"h5"><br>
On 15 Mar 2011, at 17:45, Cullen Jennings wrote:<br>
&gt; The dispatch WG will have two ad-hoc meeting.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; The first is discuss the technical content of the drafts related to th=
e proposed VIPR WG.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Tentative time: VIPR&#39;s is in Tyrolka on Thursday 1300-1400<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; The second is to discuss the technical contents of drafts related to t=
he proposed RTCWeb WG.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Tentative time: =A0RTCWeb&#39;s is =A0Friday 1415-1515 in the Grand Ba=
llroom<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Send Agenda requests for time in either of these to Mary and I.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Thanks,<br>
&gt; Mary &amp; Cullen<br>
<br>
</div></div>_______________________________________________<br>
dispatch mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:dispatch@ietf.org">dispatch@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch" target=3D"_blank=
">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br></div>

--bcaec50166277f57af049ea1a500--

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From: "Parthasarathi R (partr)" <partr@cisco.com>
To: "Thierry Bessis" <Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com>
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Hi Thierry,
=20
Please read inline.
=20
Thanks
Partha

________________________________

From: Thierry Bessis [mailto:Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com]
Sent: Wed 3/16/2011 10:33 PM
To: Parthasarathi R (partr)
Cc: dispatch@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing


Hi Partha,=20



	Thierry>> We could be more explicit, but should we ? (see next =
paragraph). Memory and CPU are just the two most obvious examples or =
resources that you need to process sessions. For instance, some of our =
servers have a fixed amount of sessions registers (for instance 50 000). =
In this case, the weight also reflects that. The algorithm we use for =
weights is very simple: this is the smallest remaining (in percentage) =
of each resource that is (1) Required to process a call, (2) Scarce  =
(not infinite). Let's consider the following system:=20
	The server has 70% of its memory available for calls, an average of 30% =
CPU usage (average over the last 10s for instance), and 40% of its =
registers available (remember that those resources may be shared by =
other components or devices for any other usage: it does not matter).=20
	Then the weight at this moment is MIN (70, 30, 40) =3D 30%. You then =
need to normalize this weight to match the weight range (an INT ? )=20
=09
	Now we are not saying that everybody should calculate their weight like =
that. What is important is that the weight reflects your current =
relative capacity. In our case, this "algorithm" balances the load of =
our servers very well. Now if you use a server that has a fixed amount =
of resources and that is dimensioned to process let's say 50 000 =
sessions, at a pace of 100 session/s, then you could probably derive a =
weight that would depend on both your count of sessions left, and your =
current rate of session/s. =20
	=20
	<Partha> In case every device calculate its own algorithm for weight, =
then weight from one device may not same as other device. Say dev1 takes =
Min(CPU, Mem, DSP) then weight will be calculated as Min (70, 40, 30) =
=3D 30% and another device dev2 calculates Min (CPU, Mem) then weight =
will be Min (70, 40) =3D 40% even though they are equally loaded. It is =
very important to have the common unit to solve this issue </Partha> =20
=09

TB >> I think here you imply that the DSP is used as a finite pool of =
bearer channels resources, and your are probably using the DSP to =
process bearers. May be you are an SBC or so.
=20
<partha> Here is the interesting part, dev1 achieve the specific service =
using DSP whereas dev2 achieve the same result using multi =
core/processor architecture or softDSP or ASIC implementation. IMO, =
weight varies based on the system architecture in case algorithm is not =
spelt out correctly or generic units are not defined. </Partha>
=20
 Then, it is obvious that you should also consider this resource as =
well, since you need it to process new sessions. So you can't say that =
you have 40% resource available to process calls if actually one of your =
resource needed has only 30% available left !=20
Our recommendation is that the occupation (weight) reflects the MIN of =
ANY resource that must be used for call processing and that is =
constrained.=20

I think it is on the contrary an advantage to not specify exactly how it =
is calculated, but to specify exactly what it is, or what it means =
instead (The most constrained resource ratio).=20


		If not, I could not understand your argument. As you mentioned, all =
system will know CPU or memory usage and it is possible to come up the =
static or refreshable value saying that load shed has to happen when 85% =
of CPU utilization or 90% of memory utilization. The different between =
our proposal is that there is no need of two value per message instead 1 =
value in each message & 1 value is static or in periodic manner  =
</Partha>

	Thierry>> We use a single value: see the example above. =20
	<Partha> I'm proposing is to use single real time value with units like =
number of dialog and exchange the threshold (max dialog) using some =
other static interface.=20

TB> This proposal is exactly what we tried to stay away from ! I thought =
I gave lot of arguments in this thread to explain  why working with =
dialogs is at the same time more difficult and not the most =
straightforward information to do resource based load sharing. =20
<Partha> dialog is only one of the unit. we will able to work out other =
unit which acceptable to everybody. As Paul Jones mentioned in another =
mail thread, SCE is working well in terms H.323 network for lot of years =
already but it is not working in SIP entity like SBC.   </Partha>
=20
Moreover, using and sharing thresholds and trying to do overload control =
as well from there is also operationally very difficult: We did that =
before and it did not work, because (inside the same company !) nobody =
never agreed about what those threshold were and how to use them.=20
<Partha> I agree that threshold varies from device to device varies =
within the same company and huge difference will be seen in case of =
multi vendor scenario.  It may be tough to manage in case it is =
provisioned statically as the threshold has to be tweaked based on the =
solutions. It is the main reason, I proposed to pass the threshold value =
from device while booting and refresh it whenever required. =20
=20
Hope we both agrees to have that two variables x,y is required to solve =
this issue. Load balancer (upstream entity) will use f(x,y) based on its =
own definition to share the load and shed the load towards single =
device. The open issue is whether both x & y has to be passed every time =
or x shall be passed in real time and y shall be passed once in a while. =

=20
BTW, I have written Media overload control requirement =
(draft-partha-dispatch-sip-media-overload-control-00) draft to identify =
the common problem which will be agreed upon lot of vendors and solve it =
based on the requirement.=20

</partha>
This is why we decided to separate load distribution and overload =
shedding (OLC provides a rejection rate, and load distribution provides =
a resource ratio). Our OLC mechanism what the starting point for Vijay's =
effort to lead the IETF OLC draft.=20


	Let overload decides how to reduce or when to shed the load based on =
this information. The advantage in this mechanism is that only one real =
time value is required between entities.

See my comment above: we tried that, and it was very difficult to come =
up with a common approach in all of our (IMS related) products.=20
Beside, having the destination clearly specifies the requested rejection =
rate is much more convenient and determinist than sharing "session =
available" and threshold information and letting the source node figure =
out what it really means in terms of shedding.=20


	In your proposed solution, "weight" as one value for load balancing and =
"oc" as another value for overload shedding. Pls correct me incase I =
misunderstand something here </Partha>=20
=09

Yes, but the "oc"  valus is the one already proposed in the OLC draft: =
this is not in THIS proposed solution.=20

Cordially,=20

Thierry



	--
	--=20
	Cordially,=20
	Thierry Bessis   IMS Solution: Architecture & Product Management - ALTA =
Member
	  Organization: ALU > Carrier group > Wireline BU >  IMS Sol Arch, SE, =
PdM
	=20
	  1960 Lucent Lane - Room 6L-517
	  Naperville, IL  60563  U S
	  Tel/Fax: +1 630 979 7989
	  Corporate IM: tbessis    - Yahoo IM:     thierry_bessis
=09
	My WEB page:   http://ihgpweb.ih.lucent.com/~tbessis/
	My Calendar:   =
www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=3Dnew_frs3175%40yahoo.fr
	ALTA Hot Line: http://alta.all.alcatel-lucent.com/hotline
=09
	Conference information:
	2801 2801 (US):+1 800 771 8734 - (F):+33 800 941 674 - Access Code: =
9797989
	others countries see: http://all.alcatel-lucent.com/audio
=09
	Upcoming planned Business Trip: 12 April - 14 April 2011
	Upcoming planned Vacation: None=20
=09
	_______________________________________________
	dispatch mailing list
	dispatch@ietf.org
	https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch


--=20
--=20
Cordially,=20
Thierry Bessis=20
  IMS Solution: Architecture & Product Management - ALTA Member
  Organization: ALU > Carrier group > Wireline BU >  IMS Sol Arch, SE, =
PdM
=20
  1960 Lucent Lane - Room 6L-517
  Naperville, IL  60563  U S
  Tel/Fax: +1 630 979 7989
  Corporate IM: tbessis

Engage: https://engage.alcatel-lucent.com/people/tbessis
My Calendar:   =
www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=3Dnew_frs3175%40yahoo.fr
ALTA Hot Line: http://alta.all.alcatel-lucent.com/hotline

Conference information:
2801 2801 (US):+1 800 771 8734 - (F):+33 800 941 674 - Access Code: =
9797989
others countries see: http://all.alcatel-lucent.com/audio

Upcoming planned Business Trip: 12 April - 14 April 2011
Upcoming planned Vacation: None=20

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<HTML dir=3Dltr><HEAD><TITLE>Thierry's signature</TITLE>=0A=
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dunicode" http-equiv=3DContent-Type>=0A=
<META name=3DGENERATOR content=3D"MSHTML 8.00.6001.18928"></HEAD>=0A=
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff text=3D#000000>=0A=
<DIV dir=3Dltr id=3DidOWAReplyText67665>=0A=
<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2 face=3DArial>Hi =
Thierry,</FONT></DIV>=0A=
<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>=0A=
<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial>Please read =
inline.</FONT></DIV>=0A=
<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>=0A=
<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial>Thanks</FONT></DIV>=0A=
<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial>Partha</FONT></DIV></DIV>=0A=
<DIV dir=3Dltr><BR>=0A=
<HR tabIndex=3D-1>=0A=
<FONT size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><B>From:</B> Thierry Bessis =
[mailto:Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wed 3/16/2011 =
10:33 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Parthasarathi R (partr)<BR><B>Cc:</B> =
dispatch@ietf.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dispatch] SIP load =
balancing<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>=0A=
<DIV>Hi Partha, <BR><BR></DIV>=0A=
<BLOCKQUOTE cite=3D"" type=3D"cite">=0A=
<DIV>Thierry&gt;&gt; We could be more explicit, but should we ? (see =
next paragraph). Memory and CPU are just the two most obvious examples =
or resources that you need to process sessions. For instance, some of =
our servers have a fixed amount of sessions registers (for instance 50 =
000). In this case, the weight also reflects that. The algorithm we use =
for weights is very simple: this is the smallest remaining (in =
percentage) of each resource that is (1) Required to process a call, (2) =
Scarce&nbsp; (not infinite). Let's consider the following system: =
<BR>The server has 70% of its memory available for calls, an average of =
30% CPU usage (average over the last 10s for instance), and 40% of its =
registers available (remember that those resources may be shared by =
other components or devices for any other usage: it does not matter). =
<BR>Then the weight at this moment is MIN (70, 30, 40) =3D 30%. You then =
need to normalize this weight to match the weight range (an INT ? ) =
<BR><BR>Now we are not saying that everybody should calculate their =
weight like that. What is important is that the weight reflects your =
current <U>relative</U> capacity. In our case, this "algorithm" balances =
the load of our servers very well. Now if you use a server that has a =
fixed amount of resources and that is dimensioned to process let's say =
50 000 sessions, at a pace of 100 session/s, then you could probably =
derive a weight that would depend on both your count of sessions left, =
and your current rate of session/s.&nbsp;<SPAN =
class=3D856275612-16032011><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2 =
face=3DArial>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></DIV>=0A=
<DIV><SPAN class=3D856275612-16032011></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>=0A=
<DIV><SPAN class=3D856275612-16032011><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2 =
face=3DArial>&lt;Partha&gt;&nbsp;In case every device calculate =
its&nbsp;own algorithm for weight, then weight from one device may not =
same as other device. Say dev1 takes Min(CPU, Mem, =
DSP)&nbsp;then&nbsp;weight will be calculated as&nbsp;Min (70, 40, 30) =
=3D 30% and&nbsp;another device dev2&nbsp;calculates Min =
(CPU,&nbsp;Mem)&nbsp;then weight will be Min (70, 40) =3D 40% even =
though they are equally loaded. It is very important to have the common =
unit to solve this issue &lt;/Partha&gt;&nbsp; =
<BR></FONT></SPAN></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>=0A=
<DIV>TB &gt;&gt; I think here you imply that the DSP is used as a finite =
pool of bearer channels resources, and your are probably using the DSP =
to process bearers. May be you are an SBC or so.</DIV>=0A=
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>=0A=
<DIV>&lt;partha&gt; Here is the interesting part, dev1 achieve the =
specific service using DSP whereas dev2 achieve the same result using =
multi core/processor architecture or softDSP or ASIC implementation. =
IMO, weight varies based on the system architecture in case algorithm is =
not spelt out correctly or generic units are not defined. =
&lt;/Partha&gt;</DIV>=0A=
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>=0A=
<DIV>&nbsp;Then, it is obvious that you should also consider this =
resource as well, since you need it to process new sessions. So you =
can't say that you have 40% resource available to process calls if =
actually one of your resource needed has only 30% available left ! =
<BR>Our recommendation is that the occupation (weight) reflects the MIN =
of ANY resource that must be used for call processing and that is =
constrained. <BR><BR>I think it is on the contrary an advantage to not =
specify exactly how it is calculated, but to specify exactly what it is, =
or what it means instead (The most constrained resource ratio). =
<BR></DIV>=0A=
<BLOCKQUOTE cite=3D"" type=3D"cite">=0A=
<BLOCKQUOTE cite=3D"" type=3D"cite">=0A=
<DIV>If not, I could not understand&nbsp;your argument.&nbsp;As you =
mentioned, all system will know CPU or memory usage and it is possible =
to come up the static or refreshable value saying that load shed has to =
happen when 85% of CPU utilization or&nbsp;90% of memory utilization. =
The different between our proposal&nbsp;is that there is no need&nbsp;of =
two&nbsp;value per message&nbsp;instead 1 value in each message &amp; =
1&nbsp;value is static or in periodic =
manner&nbsp;&nbsp;&lt;/Partha&gt;</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>=0A=
<DIV>Thierry&gt;&gt; We use a single value: see the example =
above.&nbsp;<SPAN class=3D856275612-16032011><FONT color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2 face=3DArial>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></DIV>=0A=
<DIV><SPAN class=3D856275612-16032011><SPAN =
class=3D856275612-16032011><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2 =
face=3DArial>&lt;Partha&gt;&nbsp;I'm proposing&nbsp;is to use =
single&nbsp;real time value with units like&nbsp;number of dialog and =
exchange the threshold&nbsp;(max dialog) using some other static =
interface.</FONT>&nbsp;</SPAN></SPAN></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>=0A=
<DIV>TB&gt; This proposal is exactly what we tried to stay away from ! I =
thought I gave lot of arguments in this thread to explain&nbsp; why =
working with dialogs is at the same time more difficult and not the most =
straightforward information to do resource based load sharing.&nbsp; =
</DIV>=0A=
<DIV>&lt;Partha&gt; dialog is only one of the unit. we will able to work =
out other unit which acceptable to everybody. As Paul Jones mentioned in =
another mail thread, SCE&nbsp;is working well in terms H.323 =
network&nbsp;for lot of years already but it is not working in =
SIP&nbsp;entity like&nbsp;SBC.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&lt;/Partha&gt;</DIV>=0A=
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>=0A=
<DIV>Moreover, using and sharing thresholds and trying to do overload =
control as well from there is also operationally very difficult: We did =
that before and it did not work, because (inside the same company !) =
nobody never agreed about what those threshold were and how to use them. =
</DIV>=0A=
<DIV>=0A=
<DIV dir=3Dltr>=0A=
<DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial>&lt;Partha&gt; I agree that threshold =
varies from device to device&nbsp;<SPAN =
class=3D625393921-16032011>varies </SPAN>within the same company and =
huge difference<SPAN class=3D625393921-16032011> will be =
seen</SPAN>&nbsp;in case of multi vendor scenario.&nbsp; It may be tough =
to manage in case it is provisioned statically as the threshold has to =
be tweaked based on the solutions. It is the main reason, I proposed to =
pass the threshold value from device while booting and refresh it =
whenever required. &nbsp;</FONT></DIV>=0A=
<DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>=0A=
<DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial>Hope we both agrees to have&nbsp;that =
two variables x,y is required to solve th<SPAN =
class=3D625393921-16032011>is</SPAN> issue. Load balancer (upstream =
entity)&nbsp;will use f(x,y) based on its own definition to share the =
load and shed the load towards single device. The open issue is whether =
both x &amp; y has to be passed every time or x shall be passed in real =
time and y shall be passed once in a while. </FONT></DIV>=0A=
<DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>=0A=
<DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial>BTW, I have written Media overload =
control requirement (<FONT =
size=3D3>draft-partha-dispatch-sip-media-overload-control-00) =
draft&nbsp;to identify the common problem which will be agreed =
upon&nbsp;lot of vendors&nbsp;and solve it based on the =
requirement.&nbsp;<BR></FONT></FONT></DIV>=0A=
<DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial>&lt;/partha&gt;</FONT></DIV></DIV></DIV>=0A=
<DIV>This is why we decided to separate load distribution and overload =
shedding (OLC provides a rejection rate, and load distribution provides =
a resource ratio). Our OLC mechanism what the starting point for Vijay's =
effort to lead the IETF OLC draft. <BR></DIV>=0A=
<BLOCKQUOTE cite=3D"" type=3D"cite">=0A=
<DIV><SPAN class=3D856275612-16032011><SPAN =
class=3D856275612-16032011><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2 =
face=3DArial>Let overload decides how to reduce or when to shed the load =
based on this information. The advantage in this mechanism is that only =
one real time value is required between =
entities.</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>=0A=
<DIV>See my comment above: we tried that, and it was very difficult to =
come up with a common approach in all of our (IMS related) products. =
<BR>Beside, having the destination clearly specifies the requested =
rejection rate is much more convenient and determinist than sharing =
"session available" and threshold information and letting the source =
node figure out what it really means in terms of shedding. <BR></DIV>=0A=
<BLOCKQUOTE cite=3D"" type=3D"cite">=0A=
<DIV><SPAN class=3D856275612-16032011><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=3D2 =
face=3DArial>In your proposed solution,&nbsp;"weight"&nbsp;as one value =
for load balancing and "oc" as another value for overload shedding. Pls =
correct me incase I misunderstand something here &lt;/Partha&gt;</FONT> =
</SPAN><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>=0A=
<DIV>Yes, but the "oc"&nbsp; valus is the one already proposed in the =
OLC draft: this is not in THIS proposed solution. <BR><BR>Cordially, =
<BR><BR>Thierry<BR></DIV>=0A=
<BLOCKQUOTE cite=3D"" type=3D"cite">=0A=
<DIV><BR></DIV>=0A=
<DIV class=3Dmoz-signature>--<BR><BIG style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: =
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_______________________________________________=0A=
dispatch mailing list=0A=
<A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-abbreviated =
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</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE>=0A=
<DIV><BR></DIV>=0A=
<DIV class=3Dmoz-signature>-- <BR><BIG style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: =
bold"><BIG><BIG><SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: French Script MT">-- =
<BR>Cordially, <BR></SPAN></BIG></BIG></BIG><BIG style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: =
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<DIV></DIV>=0A=
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Architecture &amp; Product Management - ALTA Member</SPAN><BR =
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp; =
Organization: ALU &gt; Carrier group &gt; Wireline BU =
&gt;&nbsp;</SPAN><B> </B>IMS Sol Arch, SE, PdM<BR><IMG style=3D"WIDTH: =
242px; HEIGHT: 66px" alt=3DAlcatel-Lucent =
src=3D"al_corp_h_3d_16mm.jpg"><BR>&nbsp; <SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"></SPAN><SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial">1960 Lucent Lane - Room =
6L-517</SPAN><BR style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><SPAN =
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp; Naperville, IL&nbsp; 60563&nbsp; U =
S</SPAN><BR style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: =
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Subject: Re: [dispatch] DISPATCH Ad-HOC meetings about VIPR and RTCWeb at IETF 80
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On Mar 16, 2011, at 4:50 PM, Lawrence Conroy wrote:

>=20
> Also, the choice of Friday @ 14:15 for the "RTCWEB" chat seems kinda =
sub-optimal,
> considering that's BEHAVE's traditional slot.

I'll note that behave has 4 sessions and also conflicts with SIPCLF, SIP =
Overload, XMPP, and Splices. If there is something of specific interests =
to both the Behave folks and RTCWeb ad-hoc meeting, we can work with the =
behave chairs to try and keep that topic in a behave session that does =
not conflict with RTCWeb.=20

Cullen=20

Note the number of WG in RAI alone is going to ensure we have conflicts =
- I think I mention this every time dispatch HUMS on forming a new WG =
:-)=20



From HKaplan@acmepacket.com  Wed Mar 16 17:37:41 2011
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From: Hadriel Kaplan <HKaplan@acmepacket.com>
To: "Parthasarathi R (partr)" <partr@cisco.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 20:39:05 -0400
Thread-Topic: [dispatch] SIP load balancing
Thread-Index: AcvkO7iIglfI7dCCTqK0Hxuq/SXR0Q==
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References: <4D755B9E.6030008@bell-labs.com>	<4D7566C1.40605@cisco.com> <4D756C47.1000509@bell-labs.com> <086e01cbdd4e$6b8188f0$42849ad0$@packetizer.com> <4D7668B9.1020105@alcatel-lucent.com> <004601cbddd2$15b11ab0$41135010$@packetizer.com> <4D77B831.7000404@alcatel-lucent.com> <026f01cbded9$be15f290$3a41d7b0$@packetizer.com> <4D791595.2010703@alcatel-lucent.com> <A11921905DA1564D9BCF64A6430A62390293A694@XMB-BGL-411.cisco.com> <4D7A485E.2080602@alcatel-lucent.com> <A11921905DA1564D9BCF64A6430A623904BE39CC@XMB-BGL-411.cisco.com> <4D80ED57.7030709@alcatel-lucent.com> <A11921905DA1564D9BCF64A6430A62390293A6AD@XMB-BGL-411.cisco.com>
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Cc: "dispatch@ietf.org" <dispatch@ietf.org>, Thierry Bessis <Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com>
Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing
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Hey Partha,=20
comments inline...


On Mar 16, 2011, at 7:18 PM, Parthasarathi R (partr) wrote:

>>=20
>> <Partha> In case every device calculate its own algorithm for weight, th=
en weight from one device may not same as other device. Say dev1 takes Min(=
CPU, Mem, DSP) then weight will be calculated as Min (70, 40, 30) =3D 30% a=
nd another device dev2 calculates Min (CPU, Mem) then weight will be Min (7=
0, 40) =3D 40% even though they are equally loaded. It is very important to=
 have the common unit to solve this issue </Partha>

HK> By definition if dev1 calculates 30% and dev2 calculates 40%, then they=
 are *not* equally loaded.  Unless you're just saying "well what if they fo=
rgot to take a resource bottleneck into account". (in which case all bets a=
re off anyway - it would be a bug)


>> =20
> TB >> I think here you imply that the DSP is used as a finite pool of bea=
rer channels resources, and your are probably using the DSP to process bear=
ers. May be you are an SBC or so.
> =20
> <partha> Here is the interesting part, dev1 achieve the specific service =
using DSP whereas dev2 achieve the same result using multi core/processor a=
rchitecture or softDSP or ASIC implementation. IMO, weight varies based on =
the system architecture in case algorithm is not spelt out correctly or gen=
eric units are not defined. </Partha>


HK> But that's the point - we can't ever write a spec to specify all possib=
le inputs into an algorithm for every possible architecture, because each a=
rchitecture has its own limitations/bottlenecks.  For example you've mentio=
ned DSP's, and Thierry has mentioned CPU and memory; but there're also SRTP=
 encryption resources, media recording resources, DTMF interworking resourc=
es, v4-v6 interworking resources, TCP-media resources, and so on.  In some =
architectures the resources are the same, in some not.  Some SIP devices ha=
ve no such resources, some have more.  We can't possibly enumerate them all=
 in a spec.

HK> So instead, the spec will just say: "whatever your limiting factor is a=
t any given time, use it for your numbers".  Only the developers of the sys=
tems know what their limiting factors are, after all.


> =20
>>=20
>> <Partha> I'm proposing is to use single real time value with units like =
number of dialog and exchange the threshold (max dialog) using some other s=
tatic interface.=20
> <Partha> dialog is only one of the unit. we will able to work out other u=
nit which acceptable to everybody. As Paul Jones mentioned in another mail =
thread, SCE is working well in terms H.323 network for lot of years already=
 but it is not working in SIP entity like SBC.   </Partha>

HK> It worked in H.323 because everything was a call and consumed equal res=
ources, and you were treating it like a PRI with a fixed/configured number =
of channels, and things rarely changed.  Arguably that's frequently also tr=
ue for SIP across SIP-trunks.  Unfortunately, that's the *only* case it wor=
ks well in, afaict.  Inside the service provider and peering between them t=
hings aren't that "clean" (or restricted, depending on how you view the wor=
ld).  It's much harder to have fixed limits of dialogs/channels/calls betwe=
en a big mesh network of systems, where the members of the mesh (the number=
 of discrete systems/blades) grow and shrink relatively frequently.  And it=
's gotten even worse with SUBSCRIBE dialogs and other non-call/non-register=
 traffic consuming resources.  That's not to say it isn't possible to do, b=
ut it ends up wasting resources because you can't take advantage of statist=
ical multiplexing, and you have to re-configure lot of systems frequently.

-hadriel


From partr@cisco.com  Wed Mar 16 17:43:14 2011
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Thread-Topic: Bar BOF request for SIP Load balancing & (media) overload handling
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From: "Parthasarathi R (partr)" <partr@cisco.com>
To: <dworley@avaya.com>, "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" <fluffy@cisco.com>, "Mike Hammer (hmmr)" <hmmr@cisco.com>, <HKaplan@acmepacket.com>, <keith.drage@alcatel-lucent.com>, <john.elwell@siemens-enterprise.com>,  <mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com>, "Paul Kyzivat (pkyzivat)" <pkyzivat@cisco.com>, <paulej@packetizer.com>, <rjsparks@nostrum.com>, <spromano@unina.it>, <Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com>, <vkg@bell-labs.com>, <vpascual@acmepacket.com>
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Subject: [dispatch] Bar BOF request for SIP Load balancing & (media) overload handling
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Hi all,
=20
There is lot of discussion about SIP load balancing and overload =
handling in Dispatch alias. I wish to have discussion about SIP Load =
balancing & (media) overload handling at IETF-80 Prague. I guess that =
Bar BOF is the idle way to start the discussion about this topic to =
common understanding and identify the way to move forward. Please =
suggest me in case any other mechanism exists in IETF.
=20
I have included the folks who has shown the interest in this topic as =
part of SIP Load balancing & overload handling, dispatch WG chairs, CCed =
to Dispatch and SoC WG alias. AFAIK, the couple of drafts are related to =
this problem:
=20
draft-bessis-dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing-00
draft-partha-dispatch-sip-media-overload-control-00.txt
draft-jones-sip-overload-sce-00
draft-partha-dispatch-resource-availability-00=20
draft-sparks-sipping-load-00
=20
Please let me about others interest and opinion to have Bar BOF for SIP =
Load balancing & overload handling during IETF-80.
=20
Thanks
Partha

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<HTML dir=3Dltr><HEAD>=0A=
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dunicode" http-equiv=3DContent-Type>=0A=
<META name=3DGENERATOR content=3D"MSHTML 8.00.6001.18928"></HEAD>=0A=
<BODY>=0A=
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2 face=3DArial>=0A=
<DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial>Hi all,</FONT></DIV>=0A=
<DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>=0A=
<DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial>There is lot of discussion about SIP =
load balancing and overload handling in Dispatch alias. I wish to have =
discussion about SIP Load balancing &amp; (media) overload handling at =
IETF-80 Prague. I guess that Bar BOF is the idle way to start the =
discussion about this topic to common understanding and identify the way =
to move forward. Please suggest me in case any other mechanism exists in =
IETF.</FONT></DIV>=0A=
<DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>=0A=
<DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial>I have included the folks who has shown =
the interest in this topic as part of SIP Load balancing &amp; overload =
handling, dispatch WG chair<SPAN class=3D185130421-16032011>s</SPAN>, =
CCed to Dispatch and&nbsp;SoC WG alias. AFAIK, the couple of drafts are =
related to this problem:</FONT></DIV>=0A=
<DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>=0A=
<DIV><FONT size=3D2 =
face=3DArial>draft-bessis-dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing-00<BR>draft-pa=
rtha-dispatch-sip-media-overload-control-00.txt<BR>draft-jones-sip-overlo=
ad-sce-00<BR>draft-partha-dispatch-resource-availability-00 =
<BR>draft-sparks-sipping-load-00</FONT></DIV>=0A=
<DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>=0A=
<DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial>Please let me about others interest and =
opinion to have Bar BOF for SIP Load balancing &amp; overload handling =
during IETF-80.</FONT></DIV>=0A=
<DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>=0A=
<DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial>Thanks</FONT></DIV>=0A=
<DIV><FONT size=3D2 =
face=3DArial>Partha</FONT></DIV></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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To: Parthasarathi R (partr) <partr@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [dispatch] Bar BOF request for SIP Load balancing & (media) overload handling
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Just as FYI ... if you have not seen it, you might want to have a read =
of=20
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-eggert-successful-bar-bof


On Mar 16, 2011, at 6:44 PM, Parthasarathi R (partr) wrote:

> Hi all,
> =20
> There is lot of discussion about SIP load balancing and overload =
handling in Dispatch alias. I wish to have discussion about SIP Load =
balancing & (media) overload handling at IETF-80 Prague. I guess that =
Bar BOF is the idle way to start the discussion about this topic to =
common understanding and identify the way to move forward. Please =
suggest me in case any other mechanism exists in IETF.
> =20
> I have included the folks who has shown the interest in this topic as =
part of SIP Load balancing & overload handling, dispatch WG chairs, CCed =
to Dispatch and SoC WG alias. AFAIK, the couple of drafts are related to =
this problem:
> =20
> draft-bessis-dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing-00
> draft-partha-dispatch-sip-media-overload-control-00.txt
> draft-jones-sip-overload-sce-00
> draft-partha-dispatch-resource-availability-00=20
> draft-sparks-sipping-load-00
> =20
> Please let me about others interest and opinion to have Bar BOF for =
SIP Load balancing & overload handling during IETF-80.
> =20
> Thanks
> Partha


From HKaplan@acmepacket.com  Wed Mar 16 19:59:32 2011
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From: Hadriel Kaplan <HKaplan@acmepacket.com>
To: Cullen Jennings <fluffy@cisco.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 23:00:55 -0400
Thread-Topic: Bar BOF request for SIP Load balancing & (media) overload handling
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Subject: Re: [dispatch] Bar BOF request for SIP Load balancing & (media) overload handling
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Lars should let Robert be the editor for this draft.
That way it'll be "draft-sparks-successful-bar-bof" which would be a great =
title.
:)


On Mar 16, 2011, at 10:18 PM, Cullen Jennings wrote:

>=20
> Just as FYI ... if you have not seen it, you might want to have a read of=
=20
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-eggert-successful-bar-bof
>=20
>=20
> On Mar 16, 2011, at 6:44 PM, Parthasarathi R (partr) wrote:
>=20
>> Hi all,
>>=20
>> There is lot of discussion about SIP load balancing and overload handlin=
g in Dispatch alias. I wish to have discussion about SIP Load balancing & (=
media) overload handling at IETF-80 Prague. I guess that Bar BOF is the idl=
e way to start the discussion about this topic to common understanding and =
identify the way to move forward. Please suggest me in case any other mecha=
nism exists in IETF.
>>=20
>> I have included the folks who has shown the interest in this topic as pa=
rt of SIP Load balancing & overload handling, dispatch WG chairs, CCed to D=
ispatch and SoC WG alias. AFAIK, the couple of drafts are related to this p=
roblem:
>>=20
>> draft-bessis-dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing-00
>> draft-partha-dispatch-sip-media-overload-control-00.txt
>> draft-jones-sip-overload-sce-00
>> draft-partha-dispatch-resource-availability-00=20
>> draft-sparks-sipping-load-00
>>=20
>> Please let me about others interest and opinion to have Bar BOF for SIP =
Load balancing & overload handling during IETF-80.
>>=20
>> Thanks
>> Partha
>=20


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Cc: "dispatch@ietf.org" <dispatch@ietf.org>, Thierry Bessis <Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com>
Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing
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Hadriel,

SCE did not work for H.323 because H.323 was mostly about call counting=20
and using a fixed number of resources.  SCE was designed with the notion =

that calls use different resources, actually.  That's why the SCE value=20
does not increase or decrease by one, necessarily.  If the limiting=20
resource was DS0s, I'd agree, but that's not the case most of the time.  =

That's true of both H.323 and SIP, of course.

Once convergence is reached, SCE values for non-DS0-type calls often=20
increase or decrease by one if the device processing the call does not=20
handle any part of the media.  The reason is that call state information =

often consumes about the same amount of memory, etc.  This is not always =

the case, of course, so SCE was not designed with the preconceived=20
notion that calls did consume an equal amount of resources.  It was=20
designed, though, to consider what the average call consumed.

Paul

On 3/16/2011 8:39 PM, Hadriel Kaplan wrote:
> Hey Partha,
> comments inline...
>
>
> On Mar 16, 2011, at 7:18 PM, Parthasarathi R (partr) wrote:
>
>>> <Partha>  In case every device calculate its own algorithm for weight=
, then weight from one device may not same as other device. Say dev1 take=
s Min(CPU, Mem, DSP) then weight will be calculated as Min (70, 40, 30) =3D=
 30% and another device dev2 calculates Min (CPU, Mem) then weight will b=
e Min (70, 40) =3D 40% even though they are equally loaded. It is very im=
portant to have the common unit to solve this issue</Partha>
> HK>  By definition if dev1 calculates 30% and dev2 calculates 40%, then=
 they are *not* equally loaded.  Unless you're just saying "well what if =
they forgot to take a resource bottleneck into account". (in which case a=
ll bets are off anyway - it would be a bug)
>
>
>>>
>> TB>>  I think here you imply that the DSP is used as a finite pool of =
bearer channels resources, and your are probably using the DSP to process=
 bearers. May be you are an SBC or so.
>>
>> <partha>  Here is the interesting part, dev1 achieve the specific serv=
ice using DSP whereas dev2 achieve the same result using multi core/proce=
ssor architecture or softDSP or ASIC implementation. IMO, weight varies b=
ased on the system architecture in case algorithm is not spelt out correc=
tly or generic units are not defined.</Partha>
>
> HK>  But that's the point - we can't ever write a spec to specify all p=
ossible inputs into an algorithm for every possible architecture, because=
 each architecture has its own limitations/bottlenecks.  For example you'=
ve mentioned DSP's, and Thierry has mentioned CPU and memory; but there'r=
e also SRTP encryption resources, media recording resources, DTMF interwo=
rking resources, v4-v6 interworking resources, TCP-media resources, and s=
o on.  In some architectures the resources are the same, in some not.  So=
me SIP devices have no such resources, some have more.  We can't possibly=
 enumerate them all in a spec.
>
> HK>  So instead, the spec will just say: "whatever your limiting factor=
 is at any given time, use it for your numbers".  Only the developers of =
the systems know what their limiting factors are, after all.
>
>
>>
>>> <Partha>  I'm proposing is to use single real time value with units l=
ike number of dialog and exchange the threshold (max dialog) using some o=
ther static interface.
>> <Partha>  dialog is only one of the unit. we will able to work out oth=
er unit which acceptable to everybody. As Paul Jones mentioned in another=
 mail thread, SCE is working well in terms H.323 network for lot of years=
 already but it is not working in SIP entity like SBC.</Partha>
> HK>  It worked in H.323 because everything was a call and consumed equa=
l resources, and you were treating it like a PRI with a fixed/configured =
number of channels, and things rarely changed.  Arguably that's frequentl=
y also true for SIP across SIP-trunks.  Unfortunately, that's the *only* =
case it works well in, afaict.  Inside the service provider and peering b=
etween them things aren't that "clean" (or restricted, depending on how y=
ou view the world).  It's much harder to have fixed limits of dialogs/cha=
nnels/calls between a big mesh network of systems, where the members of t=
he mesh (the number of discrete systems/blades) grow and shrink relativel=
y frequently.  And it's gotten even worse with SUBSCRIBE dialogs and othe=
r non-call/non-register traffic consuming resources.  That's not to say i=
t isn't possible to do, but it ends up wasting resources because you can'=
t take advantage of statistical multiplexing, and you have to re-configur=
e lot of systems frequently.
>
> -hadriel
>
> _______________________________________________
> dispatch mailing list
> dispatch@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch


From andrew.hutton@siemens-enterprise.com  Thu Mar 17 03:23:26 2011
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To: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>, "rtc-web@alvestrand.no" <rtc-web@alvestrand.no>, "dispatch@ietf.org" <dispatch@ietf.org>
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 11:24:44 +0100
Thread-Topic: Draft new version: draft-holmberg-rtcweb-ucreqs-01 - API Reqs
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Subject: Re: [dispatch] Draft new version: draft-holmberg-rtcweb-ucreqs-01 - API Reqs
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Hi,

I think this is useful input.

A few comments.

1. A5 "The web application MUST be able to control the media format (codec)=
 to be used for the streams sent to a peer".  =20

It should also be able to control the codec used for the received stream (i=
.e. control what if offered to the peer).

2. A8 "The web application MUST be able to pause/unpause the sending of a s=
tream to a peer".

I think it should be able to set/change the direction of the stream(s) whic=
h in SDP terms means sendonly/recvonly/sendrecv/inactive.=20
=20
3. A12 "The web application MUST be informed when a stream from a peer is n=
o longer received".=20

The web application MUST also be informed when a stream from a peer starts =
to be received. This probably also needs to take account of some early medi=
a scenarios when multiple streams could potentially be received from multip=
le peers. The application needs to be able to control which streams are ren=
dered. This also impacts the browser requirements as obviously the browser =
needs to be able to detect when the stream starts etc.

Regards
Andy






> -----Original Message-----
> From: rtc-web-bounces@alvestrand.no=20
> [mailto:rtc-web-bounces@alvestrand.no] On Behalf Of Christer Holmberg
> Sent: 14 March 2011 12:03
> To: rtc-web@alvestrand.no; dispatch@ietf.org
> Subject: [RTW] Draft new version: draft-holmberg-rtcweb-ucreqs-01
>=20
>=20
> Hi,
>=20
> We've submitted a new version of the ucreqs draft.
>=20
> The new version contains fixes and additions based on=20
> comments given on the previous version on the list.
>=20
> The draft can be found at:=20
> http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-holmberg-rtcweb-ucreqs-01.txt
>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> Christer
> _______________________________________________
> RTC-Web mailing list
> RTC-Web@alvestrand.no
> http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/rtc-web
> =

From jgunn6@csc.com  Thu Mar 17 07:25:17 2011
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Subject: Re: [dispatch] Bar BOF request for SIP Load balancing & (media)	overload handling
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Partha,

I am definitely interested in the subject, but I will, unfortunately, not 
be in Prague.

If it were possible to hold the bar bof somewhere with an audio feed and 
jabber room, I would definitely participate remotely.

Thanks

Janet

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purpose.



From:
"Parthasarathi R (partr)" <partr@cisco.com>
To:
<dworley@avaya.com>, "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" <fluffy@cisco.com>, "Mike 
Hammer (hmmr)" <hmmr@cisco.com>, <HKaplan@acmepacket.com>, 
<keith.drage@alcatel-lucent.com>, <john.elwell@siemens-enterprise.com>, 
<mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com>, "Paul Kyzivat (pkyzivat)" 
<pkyzivat@cisco.com>, <paulej@packetizer.com>, <rjsparks@nostrum.com>, 
<spromano@unina.it>, <Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com>, 
<vkg@bell-labs.com>, <vpascual@acmepacket.com>
Cc:
dispatch@ietf.org, sip-overload@ietf.org
Date:
03/16/2011 11:34 PM
Subject:
[dispatch] Bar BOF request for SIP Load balancing & (media)     overload 
handling



Hi all,
 
There is lot of discussion about SIP load balancing and overload handling 
in Dispatch alias. I wish to have discussion about SIP Load balancing & 
(media) overload handling at IETF-80 Prague. I guess that Bar BOF is the 
idle way to start the discussion about this topic to common understanding 
and identify the way to move forward. Please suggest me in case any other 
mechanism exists in IETF.
 
I have included the folks who has shown the interest in this topic as part 
of SIP Load balancing & overload handling, dispatch WG chairs, CCed to 
Dispatch and SoC WG alias. AFAIK, the couple of drafts are related to this 
problem:
 
draft-bessis-dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing-00
draft-partha-dispatch-sip-media-overload-control-00.txt
draft-jones-sip-overload-sce-00
draft-partha-dispatch-resource-availability-00 
draft-sparks-sipping-load-00
 
Please let me about others interest and opinion to have Bar BOF for SIP 
Load balancing & overload handling during IETF-80.
 
Thanks
Partha_______________________________________________
dispatch mailing list
dispatch@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch



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<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Partha,</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">I am definitely interested in the subject,
but I will, unfortunately, not be in Prague.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">If it were possible to hold the bar
bof somewhere with an audio feed and jabber room, I would definitely participate
remotely.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Thanks</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Janet<br>
<br>
This is a PRIVATE message. If you are not the intended recipient, please
delete without copying and kindly advise us by e-mail of the mistake in
delivery. <br>
NOTE: Regardless of content, this e-mail shall not operate to bind CSC
to any order or other contract unless pursuant to explicit written agreement
or government initiative expressly permitting the use of e-mail for such
purpose.</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="sans-serif">From:</font>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&quot;Parthasarathi R (partr)&quot;
&lt;partr@cisco.com&gt;</font>
<tr valign=top>
<td><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="sans-serif">To:</font>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&lt;dworley@avaya.com&gt;, &quot;Cullen
Jennings (fluffy)&quot; &lt;fluffy@cisco.com&gt;, &quot;Mike Hammer (hmmr)&quot;
&lt;hmmr@cisco.com&gt;, &lt;HKaplan@acmepacket.com&gt;, &lt;keith.drage@alcatel-lucent.com&gt;,
&lt;john.elwell@siemens-enterprise.com&gt;, &lt;mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com&gt;,
&quot;Paul Kyzivat (pkyzivat)&quot; &lt;pkyzivat@cisco.com&gt;, &lt;paulej@packetizer.com&gt;,
&lt;rjsparks@nostrum.com&gt;, &lt;spromano@unina.it&gt;, &lt;Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com&gt;,
&lt;vkg@bell-labs.com&gt;, &lt;vpascual@acmepacket.com&gt;</font>
<tr>
<td valign=top><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="sans-serif">Cc:</font>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">dispatch@ietf.org, sip-overload@ietf.org</font>
<tr valign=top>
<td><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="sans-serif">Date:</font>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">03/16/2011 11:34 PM</font>
<tr valign=top>
<td><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="sans-serif">Subject:</font>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">[dispatch] Bar BOF request for SIP Load
balancing &amp; (media) &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;overload handling</font></table>
<br>
<hr noshade>
<br>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="Arial">Hi all,</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Arial">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Arial">There is lot of discussion about SIP load
balancing and overload handling in Dispatch alias. I wish to have discussion
about SIP Load balancing &amp; (media) overload handling at IETF-80 Prague.
I guess that Bar BOF is the idle way to start the discussion about this
topic to common understanding and identify the way to move forward. Please
suggest me in case any other mechanism exists in IETF.</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Arial">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Arial">I have included the folks who has shown the
interest in this topic as part of SIP Load balancing &amp; overload handling,
dispatch WG chairs, CCed to Dispatch and SoC WG alias. AFAIK, the couple
of drafts are related to this problem:</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Arial">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Arial">draft-bessis-dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing-00<br>
draft-partha-dispatch-sip-media-overload-control-00.txt<br>
draft-jones-sip-overload-sce-00<br>
draft-partha-dispatch-resource-availability-00 <br>
draft-sparks-sipping-load-00</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Arial">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Arial">Please let me about others interest and opinion
to have Bar BOF for SIP Load balancing &amp; overload handling during IETF-80.</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Arial">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Arial">Thanks</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Arial">Partha</font><tt><font size=2>_______________________________________________<br>
dispatch mailing list<br>
dispatch@ietf.org<br>
</font></tt><a href=https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch><tt><font size=2>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch</font></tt></a><tt><font size=2><br>
</font></tt>
<br>
<br>
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From: "Worley, Dale R (Dale)" <dworley@avaya.com>
To: "Parthasarathi R (partr)" <partr@cisco.com>, "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" <fluffy@cisco.com>, "Mike Hammer (hmmr)" <hmmr@cisco.com>, "HKaplan@acmepacket.com" <HKaplan@acmepacket.com>, "keith.drage@alcatel-lucent.com" <keith.drage@alcatel-lucent.com>, "john.elwell@siemens-enterprise.com" <john.elwell@siemens-enterprise.com>,  "mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com" <mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com>, "Paul Kyzivat (pkyzivat)" <pkyzivat@cisco.com>, "paulej@packetizer.com" <paulej@packetizer.com>, "rjsparks@nostrum.com" <rjsparks@nostrum.com>,  "spromano@unina.it" <spromano@unina.it>, "Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com" <Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com>, "vkg@bell-labs.com" <vkg@bell-labs.com>,  "vpascual@acmepacket.com" <vpascual@acmepacket.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 11:22:29 -0400
Thread-Topic: Bar BOF request for SIP Load balancing & (media) overload handling
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Subject: Re: [dispatch] Bar BOF request for SIP Load balancing & (media) overload handling
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________________________________________
From: Parthasarathi R (partr) [partr@cisco.com]

Please let me about others interest and opinion to have Bar BOF for SIP Loa=
d balancing & overload handling during IETF-80.
________________________________________

Clearly, this is a subject that needs study within the IETF, so the bar BOF=
 is a very good idea.
(I'll be at IETF Prague.)

Dale

From gsalguei@cisco.com  Thu Mar 17 08:27:40 2011
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From: Gonzalo Salgueiro <gsalguei@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [dispatch] Bar BOF request for SIP Load balancing & (media)	overload handling
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This is my situation as well. I would love to join but will not be in =
attendance.

Gonzalo

On Mar 17, 2011, at 10:24 AM, Janet P Gunn wrote:

>=20
> Partha,=20
>=20
> I am definitely interested in the subject, but I will, unfortunately, =
not be in Prague.=20
>=20
> If it were possible to hold the bar bof somewhere with an audio feed =
and jabber room, I would definitely participate remotely.=20
>=20
> Thanks=20
>=20
> Janet
>=20
> This is a PRIVATE message. If you are not the intended recipient, =
please delete without copying and kindly advise us by e-mail of the =
mistake in delivery.=20
> NOTE: Regardless of content, this e-mail shall not operate to bind CSC =
to any order or other contract unless pursuant to explicit written =
agreement or government initiative expressly permitting the use of =
e-mail for such purpose.=20
>=20
>=20
> From:	"Parthasarathi R (partr)" <partr@cisco.com>
> To:	<dworley@avaya.com>, "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" =
<fluffy@cisco.com>, "Mike Hammer (hmmr)" <hmmr@cisco.com>, =
<HKaplan@acmepacket.com>, <keith.drage@alcatel-lucent.com>, =
<john.elwell@siemens-enterprise.com>, <mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com>, =
"Paul Kyzivat (pkyzivat)" <pkyzivat@cisco.com>, <paulej@packetizer.com>, =
<rjsparks@nostrum.com>, <spromano@unina.it>, =
<Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com>, <vkg@bell-labs.com>, =
<vpascual@acmepacket.com>
> Cc:	dispatch@ietf.org, sip-overload@ietf.org
> Date:	03/16/2011 11:34 PM
> Subject: 	[dispatch] Bar BOF request for SIP Load balancing & =
(media)        overload handling
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Hi all,=20
>  =20
> There is lot of discussion about SIP load balancing and overload =
handling in Dispatch alias. I wish to have discussion about SIP Load =
balancing & (media) overload handling at IETF-80 Prague. I guess that =
Bar BOF is the idle way to start the discussion about this topic to =
common understanding and identify the way to move forward. Please =
suggest me in case any other mechanism exists in IETF.=20
>  =20
> I have included the folks who has shown the interest in this topic as =
part of SIP Load balancing & overload handling, dispatch WG chairs, CCed =
to Dispatch and SoC WG alias. AFAIK, the couple of drafts are related to =
this problem:=20
>  =20
> draft-bessis-dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing-00
> draft-partha-dispatch-sip-media-overload-control-00.txt
> draft-jones-sip-overload-sce-00
> draft-partha-dispatch-resource-availability-00=20
> draft-sparks-sipping-load-00=20
>  =20
> Please let me about others interest and opinion to have Bar BOF for =
SIP Load balancing & overload handling during IETF-80.=20
>  =20
> Thanks=20
> Partha_______________________________________________
> dispatch mailing list
> dispatch@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> dispatch mailing list
> dispatch@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch


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<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">This is my situation as well. I would love to join but will not be in attendance.<div><br></div><div>Gonzalo</div><div><br><div><div>On Mar 17, 2011, at 10:24 AM, Janet P Gunn wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite">
<br><font size="2" face="sans-serif">Partha,</font>
<br>
<br><font size="2" face="sans-serif">I am definitely interested in the subject,
but I will, unfortunately, not be in Prague.</font>
<br>
<br><font size="2" face="sans-serif">If it were possible to hold the bar
bof somewhere with an audio feed and jabber room, I would definitely participate
remotely.</font>
<br>
<br><font size="2" face="sans-serif">Thanks</font>
<br>
<br><font size="2" face="sans-serif">Janet<br>
<br>
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<table width="100%">
<tbody><tr valign="top">
<td><font size="1" color="#5f5f5f" face="sans-serif">From:</font>
</td><td><font size="1" face="sans-serif">"Parthasarathi R (partr)"
&lt;<a href="mailto:partr@cisco.com">partr@cisco.com</a>&gt;</font>
</td></tr><tr valign="top">
<td><font size="1" color="#5f5f5f" face="sans-serif">To:</font>
</td><td><font size="1" face="sans-serif">&lt;<a href="mailto:dworley@avaya.com">dworley@avaya.com</a>&gt;, "Cullen
Jennings (fluffy)" &lt;<a href="mailto:fluffy@cisco.com">fluffy@cisco.com</a>&gt;, "Mike Hammer (hmmr)"
&lt;<a href="mailto:hmmr@cisco.com">hmmr@cisco.com</a>&gt;, &lt;<a href="mailto:HKaplan@acmepacket.com">HKaplan@acmepacket.com</a>&gt;, &lt;<a href="mailto:keith.drage@alcatel-lucent.com">keith.drage@alcatel-lucent.com</a>&gt;,
&lt;<a href="mailto:john.elwell@siemens-enterprise.com">john.elwell@siemens-enterprise.com</a>&gt;, &lt;<a href="mailto:mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com">mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com</a>&gt;,
"Paul Kyzivat (pkyzivat)" &lt;<a href="mailto:pkyzivat@cisco.com">pkyzivat@cisco.com</a>&gt;, &lt;<a href="mailto:paulej@packetizer.com">paulej@packetizer.com</a>&gt;,
&lt;<a href="mailto:rjsparks@nostrum.com">rjsparks@nostrum.com</a>&gt;, &lt;<a href="mailto:spromano@unina.it">spromano@unina.it</a>&gt;, &lt;<a href="mailto:Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com">Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com</a>&gt;,
&lt;<a href="mailto:vkg@bell-labs.com">vkg@bell-labs.com</a>&gt;, &lt;<a href="mailto:vpascual@acmepacket.com">vpascual@acmepacket.com</a>&gt;</font>
</td></tr><tr>
<td valign="top"><font size="1" color="#5f5f5f" face="sans-serif">Cc:</font>
</td><td><font size="1" face="sans-serif"><a href="mailto:dispatch@ietf.org">dispatch@ietf.org</a>, <a href="mailto:sip-overload@ietf.org">sip-overload@ietf.org</a></font>
</td></tr><tr valign="top">
<td><font size="1" color="#5f5f5f" face="sans-serif">Date:</font>
</td><td><font size="1" face="sans-serif">03/16/2011 11:34 PM</font>
</td></tr><tr valign="top">
<td><font size="1" color="#5f5f5f" face="sans-serif">Subject:</font>
</td><td><font size="1" face="sans-serif">[dispatch] Bar BOF request for SIP Load
balancing &amp; (media) &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;overload handling</font></td></tr></tbody></table>
<br>
<hr noshade="">
<br>
<br>
<br><font size="2" face="Arial">Hi all,</font>
<br><font size="2" face="Arial">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size="2" face="Arial">There is lot of discussion about SIP load
balancing and overload handling in Dispatch alias. I wish to have discussion
about SIP Load balancing &amp; (media) overload handling at IETF-80 Prague.
I guess that Bar BOF is the idle way to start the discussion about this
topic to common understanding and identify the way to move forward. Please
suggest me in case any other mechanism exists in IETF.</font>
<br><font size="2" face="Arial">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size="2" face="Arial">I have included the folks who has shown the
interest in this topic as part of SIP Load balancing &amp; overload handling,
dispatch WG chairs, CCed to Dispatch and SoC WG alias. AFAIK, the couple
of drafts are related to this problem:</font>
<br><font size="2" face="Arial">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size="2" face="Arial">draft-bessis-dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing-00<br>
draft-partha-dispatch-sip-media-overload-control-00.txt<br>
draft-jones-sip-overload-sce-00<br>
draft-partha-dispatch-resource-availability-00 <br>
draft-sparks-sipping-load-00</font>
<br><font size="2" face="Arial">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size="2" face="Arial">Please let me about others interest and opinion
to have Bar BOF for SIP Load balancing &amp; overload handling during IETF-80.</font>
<br><font size="2" face="Arial">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size="2" face="Arial">Thanks</font>
<br><font size="2" face="Arial">Partha</font><tt><font size="2">_______________________________________________<br>
dispatch mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:dispatch@ietf.org">dispatch@ietf.org</a><br>
</font></tt><a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch"><tt><font size="2">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch</font></tt></a><tt><font size="2"><br>
</font></tt>
<br>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>dispatch mailing list<br><a href="mailto:dispatch@ietf.org">dispatch@ietf.org</a><br>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch<br></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>
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From mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com  Thu Mar 17 10:28:46 2011
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Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 12:30:05 -0500
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From: Mary Barnes <mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com>
To: DISPATCH <dispatch@ietf.org>
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Subject: [dispatch] Fwd: Bar BOF request for SIP Load balancing & (media) overload handling
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Per my email to sip-overload mailing list, please trim the receiver list AND
please keep the discussion on dispatch mailing list only.

Thanks,
Mary.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Mary Barnes <mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 12:29 PM
Subject: Re: Bar BOF request for SIP Load balancing & (media) overload
handling
To: sip-overload@ietf.org
Cc: "Parthasarathi R (partr)" <partr@cisco.com>


Can I ask folks to PLEASE just keep this discussion on the DISPATCH mailing
list only and trim the receiver list?  My mailbox is filling up with
moderator actions due to the many recipients and cross posting to multi-WGs
fills up everyone's mailboxes.

Note, I'm sending this email separately to each WG.

Thanks,
Mary.


On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 10:22 AM, Worley, Dale R (Dale)
<dworley@avaya.com>wrote:

> ________________________________________
> From: Parthasarathi R (partr) [partr@cisco.com]
>
> Please let me about others interest and opinion to have Bar BOF for SIP
> Load balancing & overload handling during IETF-80.
> ________________________________________
>

--20cf304346d62675c1049eb1030f
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
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Per my email to sip-overload mailing list, please trim the receiver list AN=
D please keep the discussion on dispatch mailing list only.<div><br></div><=
div>Thanks,</div><div>Mary.<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">---------- Fo=
rwarded message ----------<br>
From: <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">Mary Barnes</b> <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com">mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com</a>=
&gt;</span><br>Date: Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 12:29 PM<br>Subject: Re: Bar BOF =
request for SIP Load balancing &amp; (media) overload handling<br>
To: <a href=3D"mailto:sip-overload@ietf.org">sip-overload@ietf.org</a><br>C=
c: &quot;Parthasarathi R (partr)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:partr@cisco.co=
m">partr@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br><br><br>Can I ask folks to PLEASE just keep t=
his discussion on the DISPATCH mailing list only and trim the receiver list=
? =A0My mailbox is filling up with moderator actions due to the many recipi=
ents and cross posting to multi-WGs fills up everyone&#39;s mailboxes.<div>

<br></div><div>Note, I&#39;m sending this email separately to each WG.<br><=
div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Mary.=A0<div class=3D"im"><br><br><div=
 class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 10:22 AM, Worley, Dale R (Da=
le) <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dworley@avaya.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">dworley@avaya.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">________________________________________<br>
From: Parthasarathi R (partr) [<a href=3D"mailto:partr@cisco.com" target=3D=
"_blank">partr@cisco.com</a>]<br>
<div><br>
Please let me about others interest and opinion to have Bar BOF for SIP Loa=
d balancing &amp; overload handling during IETF-80.<br>
</div>________________________________________<br></blockquote></div></div>=
</div></div>
</div><br></div>

--20cf304346d62675c1049eb1030f--

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Subject: Re: [dispatch] [sip-overload] Bar BOF request for SIP Load balancing &	(media)overload handling
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Same here!

Volker

On 3/17/2011 1:28 PM, Salvatore Loreto wrote:
> +1
>
> On 3/17/11 5:46 PM, DOLLY, MARTIN C (ATTSI) wrote:
>>
>> I would be interested. Thank you.
>>
>> *From:*sip-overload-bounces@ietf.org
>> [mailto:sip-overload-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Parthasarathi R
>> (partr)
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 16, 2011 8:45 PM
>> *To:* dworley@avaya.com; Cullen Jennings (fluffy); Mike Hammer (hmmr);
>> HKaplan@acmepacket.com; keith.drage@alcatel-lucent.com;
>> john.elwell@siemens-enterprise.com; mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com; Paul
>> Kyzivat (pkyzivat); paulej@packetizer.com; rjsparks@nostrum.com;
>> spromano@unina.it; Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com;
>> vkg@bell-labs.com; vpascual@acmepacket.com
>> *Cc:* dispatch@ietf.org; sip-overload@ietf.org
>> *Subject:* [sip-overload] Bar BOF request for SIP Load balancing &
>> (media)overload handling
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> There is lot of discussion about SIP load balancing and overload
>> handling in Dispatch alias. I wish to have discussion about SIP Load
>> balancing & (media) overload handling at IETF-80 Prague. I guess that
>> Bar BOF is the idle way to start the discussion about this topic to
>> common understanding and identify the way to move forward. Please
>> suggest me in case any other mechanism exists in IETF.
>>
>> I have included the folks who has shown the interest in this topic as
>> part of SIP Load balancing & overload handling, dispatch WG chairs,
>> CCed to Dispatch and SoC WG alias. AFAIK, the couple of drafts are
>> related to this problem:
>>
>> draft-bessis-dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing-00
>> draft-partha-dispatch-sip-media-overload-control-00.txt
>> draft-jones-sip-overload-sce-00
>> draft-partha-dispatch-resource-availability-00
>> draft-sparks-sipping-load-00
>>
>> Please let me about others interest and opinion to have Bar BOF for
>> SIP Load balancing & overload handling during IETF-80.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Partha
>>
>
>
> --
> Salvatore Loreto
> www.sloreto.com
>


From salvatore.loreto@ericsson.com  Thu Mar 17 10:26:51 2011
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Cc: "vpascual@acmepacket.com" <vpascual@acmepacket.com>, "sip-overload@ietf.org" <sip-overload@ietf.org>, "keith.drage@alcatel-lucent.com" <keith.drage@alcatel-lucent.com>, "HKaplan@acmepacket.com" <HKaplan@acmepacket.com>, "dispatch@ietf.org" <dispatch@ietf.org>, "Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com" <Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com>
Subject: Re: [dispatch] [sip-overload] Bar BOF request for SIP Load balancing &	(media)overload handling
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+1

On 3/17/11 5:46 PM, DOLLY, MARTIN C (ATTSI) wrote:
>
> I would be interested. Thank you.
>
> *From:*sip-overload-bounces@ietf.org 
> [mailto:sip-overload-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Parthasarathi R 
> (partr)
> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 16, 2011 8:45 PM
> *To:* dworley@avaya.com; Cullen Jennings (fluffy); Mike Hammer (hmmr); 
> HKaplan@acmepacket.com; keith.drage@alcatel-lucent.com; 
> john.elwell@siemens-enterprise.com; mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com; Paul 
> Kyzivat (pkyzivat); paulej@packetizer.com; rjsparks@nostrum.com; 
> spromano@unina.it; Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com; 
> vkg@bell-labs.com; vpascual@acmepacket.com
> *Cc:* dispatch@ietf.org; sip-overload@ietf.org
> *Subject:* [sip-overload] Bar BOF request for SIP Load balancing & 
> (media)overload handling
>
> Hi all,
>
> There is lot of discussion about SIP load balancing and overload 
> handling in Dispatch alias. I wish to have discussion about SIP Load 
> balancing & (media) overload handling at IETF-80 Prague. I guess that 
> Bar BOF is the idle way to start the discussion about this topic to 
> common understanding and identify the way to move forward. Please 
> suggest me in case any other mechanism exists in IETF.
>
> I have included the folks who has shown the interest in this topic as 
> part of SIP Load balancing & overload handling, dispatch WG chairs, 
> CCed to Dispatch and SoC WG alias. AFAIK, the couple of drafts are 
> related to this problem:
>
> draft-bessis-dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing-00
> draft-partha-dispatch-sip-media-overload-control-00.txt
> draft-jones-sip-overload-sce-00
> draft-partha-dispatch-resource-availability-00
> draft-sparks-sipping-load-00
>
> Please let me about others interest and opinion to have Bar BOF for 
> SIP Load balancing & overload handling during IETF-80.
>
> Thanks
>
> Partha
>


-- 
Salvatore Loreto
www.sloreto.com


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    +1<br>
    <br>
    On 3/17/11 5:46 PM, DOLLY, MARTIN C (ATTSI) wrote:
    <blockquote
cite="mid:14C85D6CCBE92743AF33663BF5D24EBA096F3937@gaalpa1msgusr7e.ugd.att.com"
      type="cite">
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        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
            &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31,
            73, 125);">I would be interested. Thank you.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
            &quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color: rgb(31,
            73, 125);"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
        <div>
          <div style="border-right: medium none; border-width: 1pt
            medium medium; border-style: solid none none; border-color:
            rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color;
            padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;
                  font-family:
                  &quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;">From:</span></b><span
                style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
                &quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;">
                <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:sip-overload-bounces@ietf.org">sip-overload-bounces@ietf.org</a>
                [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:sip-overload-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:sip-overload-bounces@ietf.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of
                </b>Parthasarathi R (partr)<br>
                <b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 16, 2011 8:45 PM<br>
                <b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dworley@avaya.com">dworley@avaya.com</a>; Cullen Jennings (fluffy);
                Mike Hammer (hmmr); <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:HKaplan@acmepacket.com">HKaplan@acmepacket.com</a>;
                <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:keith.drage@alcatel-lucent.com">keith.drage@alcatel-lucent.com</a>;
                <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:john.elwell@siemens-enterprise.com">john.elwell@siemens-enterprise.com</a>;
                <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com">mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com</a>; Paul Kyzivat (pkyzivat);
                <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:paulej@packetizer.com">paulej@packetizer.com</a>; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:rjsparks@nostrum.com">rjsparks@nostrum.com</a>;
                <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:spromano@unina.it">spromano@unina.it</a>; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com">Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com</a>;
                <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:vkg@bell-labs.com">vkg@bell-labs.com</a>; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:vpascual@acmepacket.com">vpascual@acmepacket.com</a><br>
                <b>Cc:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dispatch@ietf.org">dispatch@ietf.org</a>; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:sip-overload@ietf.org">sip-overload@ietf.org</a><br>
                <b>Subject:</b> [sip-overload] Bar BOF request for SIP
                Load balancing &amp; (media)overload handling<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
        <div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt;
                font-family: &quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
                color: black;">Hi all,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt;
                font-family: &quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
                color: black;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt;
                font-family: &quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
                color: black;">There is lot of discussion about SIP load
                balancing and overload handling in Dispatch alias. I
                wish to have discussion about SIP Load balancing &amp;
                (media) overload handling at IETF-80 Prague. I guess
                that Bar BOF is the idle way to start the discussion
                about this topic to common understanding and identify
                the way to move forward. Please suggest me in case any
                other mechanism exists in IETF.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt;
                font-family: &quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
                color: black;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt;
                font-family: &quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
                color: black;">I have included the folks who has shown
                the interest in this topic as part of SIP Load balancing
                &amp; overload handling, dispatch WG chairs, CCed to
                Dispatch and&nbsp;SoC WG alias. AFAIK, the couple of drafts
                are related to this problem:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt;
                font-family: &quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
                color: black;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt;
                font-family: &quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
                color: black;">draft-bessis-dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing-00<br>
                draft-partha-dispatch-sip-media-overload-control-00.txt<br>
                draft-jones-sip-overload-sce-00<br>
                draft-partha-dispatch-resource-availability-00 <br>
                draft-sparks-sipping-load-00<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt;
                font-family: &quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
                color: black;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt;
                font-family: &quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
                color: black;">Please let me about others interest and
                opinion to have Bar BOF for SIP Load balancing &amp;
                overload handling during IETF-80.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt;
                font-family: &quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
                color: black;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt;
                font-family: &quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
                color: black;">Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt;
                font-family: &quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
                color: black;">Partha<o:p></o:p></span></p>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <br>
    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
Salvatore Loreto
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.sloreto.com">www.sloreto.com</a></pre>
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From: Victor Pascual <vpascual@acmepacket.com>
To: "Worley, Dale R (Dale)" <dworley@avaya.com>, "Parthasarathi R (partr)" <partr@cisco.com>, "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" <fluffy@cisco.com>, "Mike Hammer (hmmr)" <hmmr@cisco.com>, Hadriel Kaplan <HKaplan@acmepacket.com>, "keith.drage@alcatel-lucent.com" <keith.drage@alcatel-lucent.com>, "john.elwell@siemens-enterprise.com" <john.elwell@siemens-enterprise.com>,  "mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com" <mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com>, "Paul Kyzivat (pkyzivat)" <pkyzivat@cisco.com>, "paulej@packetizer.com" <paulej@packetizer.com>, "rjsparks@nostrum.com" <rjsparks@nostrum.com>,  "spromano@unina.it" <spromano@unina.it>, "Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com" <Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com>, "vkg@bell-labs.com" <vkg@bell-labs.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 14:16:37 -0400
Thread-Topic: Bar BOF request for SIP Load balancing & (media) overload handling
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Subject: Re: [dispatch] Bar BOF request for SIP Load balancing & (media) overload handling
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Count me in

-Victor

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Worley, Dale R (Dale) [mailto:dworley@avaya.com]
>Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 4:22 PM
>To: Parthasarathi R (partr); Cullen Jennings (fluffy); Mike Hammer
>(hmmr); Hadriel Kaplan; keith.drage@alcatel-lucent.com;
>john.elwell@siemens-enterprise.com; mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com; Paul
>Kyzivat (pkyzivat); paulej@packetizer.com; rjsparks@nostrum.com;
>spromano@unina.it; Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com; vkg@bell-labs.com;
>Victor Pascual
>Cc: dispatch@ietf.org; sip-overload@ietf.org
>Subject: RE: Bar BOF request for SIP Load balancing & (media) overload
>handling
>
>________________________________________
>From: Parthasarathi R (partr) [partr@cisco.com]
>
>Please let me about others interest and opinion to have Bar BOF for SIP
>Load balancing & overload handling during IETF-80.
>________________________________________
>
>Clearly, this is a subject that needs study within the IETF, so the bar
>BOF is a very good idea.
>(I'll be at IETF Prague.)
>
>Dale

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Hi Partha,

Thank you for your comments. See my answers..
>>
>> Now we are not saying that everybody should calculate their weight 
>> like that. What is important is that the weight reflects your current 
>> _relative_ capacity. In our case, this "algorithm" balances the load 
>> of our servers very well. Now if you use a server that has a fixed 
>> amount of resources and that is dimensioned to process let's say 50 
>> 000 sessions, at a pace of 100 session/s, then you could probably 
>> derive a weight that would depend on both your count of sessions 
>> left, and your current rate of session/s.
>> <Partha> In case every device calculate its own algorithm for weight, 
>> then weight from one device may not same as other device. Say dev1 
>> takes Min(CPU, Mem, DSP) then weight will be calculated as Min (70, 
>> 40, 30) = 30% and another device dev2 calculates Min (CPU, Mem) then 
>> weight will be Min (70, 40) = 40% even though they are equally 
>> loaded. It is very important to have the common unit to solve this 
>> issue </Partha>
> TB >> I think here you imply that the DSP is used as a finite pool of 
> bearer channels resources, and your are probably using the DSP to 
> process bearers. May be you are an SBC or so.
> <partha> Here is the interesting part, dev1 achieve the specific 
> service using DSP whereas dev2 achieve the same result using multi 
> core/processor architecture or softDSP or ASIC implementation. IMO, 
> weight varies based on the system architecture in case algorithm is 
> not spelt out correctly or generic units are not defined. </Partha>
TB> It seems to me that this comment just reinforces my point (I hope I 
understand well): We need to let the destination come up its own way 
with its percentage of resource left, because there are so many possible 
implementations that it would be cumbersome and restrictive to impose 
any algorithm. Also just to be sure: The proposed weight is a percentage 
(a ratio): it has no unit. Part of the robustness and universality is 
derived from this characteristic.
>  Then, it is obvious that you should also consider this resource as 
> well, since you need it to process new sessions. So you can't say that 
> you have 40% resource available to process calls if actually one of 
> your resource needed has only 30% available left !
> Our recommendation is that the occupation (weight) reflects the MIN of 
> ANY resource that must be used for call processing and that is 
> constrained.
>
> I think it is on the contrary an advantage to not specify exactly how 
> it is calculated, but to specify exactly what it is, or what it means 
> instead (The most constrained resource ratio).
>>> If not, I could not understand your argument. As you mentioned, all 
>>> system will know CPU or memory usage and it is possible to come up 
>>> the static or refreshable value saying that load shed has to happen 
>>> when 85% of CPU utilization or 90% of memory utilization. The 
>>> different between our proposal is that there is no need of two value 
>>> per message instead 1 value in each message & 1 value is static or 
>>> in periodic manner </Partha>
>> Thierry>> We use a single value: see the example above.
>> <Partha> I'm proposing is to use single real time value with units 
>> like number of dialog and exchange the threshold (max dialog) using 
>> some other static interface.
> <Partha> I agree that threshold varies from device to device varies 
> within the same company and huge differencewill be seen in case of 
> multi vendor scenario.  It may be tough to manage in case it is 
> provisioned statically as the threshold has to be tweaked based on the 
> solutions. It is the main reason, I proposed to pass the threshold 
> value from device while booting and refresh it whenever required.
> Hope we both agrees to have that two variables x,y is required to 
> solve this issue.
Not at all ! We don't need any threshold to balance the load. We just 
need a weight: What you want is to balance the weights so that they tend 
to be identical everywhere: why do we need a threshold to do that ?
> Load balancer (upstream entity) will use f(x,y) based on its own 
> definition to share the load and shed the load towards single device.
TB> Again: We are not interested to redefine overload control and load 
shedding in this proposal: The new OLC draft has just be defined to do 
that.  I've explained (and we should probably make it clear in the 
proposal) that both mechanisms work very well together while each has 
its own independent algorithm.
> The open issue is whether both x & y has to be passed every time or x 
> shall be passed in real time and y shall be passed once in a while.
> BTW, I have written Media overload control requirement 
> (draft-partha-dispatch-sip-media-overload-control-00) draft to 
> identify the common problem which will be agreed upon lot of 
> vendors and solve it based on the requirement.
TB> This requirement was an entry for the OLC draft, is that your point ?

-- 
-- 
Cordially,
Thierry Bessis
IMS Solution: Architecture & Product Management - ALTA Member
   Organization: ALU > Carrier group > Wireline BU > **IMS Sol Arch, SE, PdM
Alcatel-Lucent
1960 Lucent Lane - Room 6L-517
   Naperville, IL  60563  U S
   Tel/Fax: +1 630 979 7989
   Corporate IM: tbessis

Engage: https://engage.alcatel-lucent.com/people/tbessis
My Calendar:   www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=new_frs3175%40yahoo.fr
ALTA Hot Line: http://alta.all.alcatel-lucent.com/hotline

Conference information:
2801 2801 (US):+1 800 771 8734 - (F):+33 800 941 674 - Access Code: 9797989
others countries see: http://all.alcatel-lucent.com/audio

Upcoming planned Business Trip: 12 April - 14 April 2011
Upcoming planned Vacation: None

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    Hi Partha, <br>
    <br>
    Thank you for your comments. See my answers.. <br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:A11921905DA1564D9BCF64A6430A62390293A6AD@XMB-BGL-411.cisco.com"
      type="cite">
      <blockquote cite="" type="cite">
        <div><br>
          Now we are not saying that everybody should calculate their
          weight like that. What is important is that the weight
          reflects your current <u>relative</u> capacity. In our case,
          this "algorithm" balances the load of our servers very well.
          Now if you use a server that has a fixed amount of resources
          and that is dimensioned to process let's say 50 000 sessions,
          at a pace of 100 session/s, then you could probably derive a
          weight that would depend on both your count of sessions left,
          and your current rate of session/s.&nbsp;<span
            class="856275612-16032011"><font size="2" color="#0000ff"
              face="Arial">&nbsp;</font></span></div>
        <div><span class="856275612-16032011"></span>&nbsp;</div>
        <div><span class="856275612-16032011"><font size="2"
              color="#0000ff" face="Arial">&lt;Partha&gt;&nbsp;In case every
              device calculate its&nbsp;own algorithm for weight, then weight
              from one device may not same as other device. Say dev1
              takes Min(CPU, Mem, DSP)&nbsp;then&nbsp;weight will be calculated
              as&nbsp;Min (70, 40, 30) = 30% and&nbsp;another device
              dev2&nbsp;calculates Min (CPU,&nbsp;Mem)&nbsp;then weight will be Min
              (70, 40) = 40% even though they are equally loaded. It is
              very important to have the common unit to solve this issue
              &lt;/Partha&gt;&nbsp; <br>
            </font></span></div>
      </blockquote>
      <div>TB &gt;&gt; I think here you imply that the DSP is used as a
        finite pool of bearer channels resources, and your are probably
        using the DSP to process bearers. May be you are an SBC or so.</div>
      <div>&nbsp;</div>
      <div>&lt;partha&gt; Here is the interesting part, dev1 achieve the
        specific service using DSP whereas dev2 achieve the same result
        using multi core/processor architecture or softDSP or ASIC
        implementation. IMO, weight varies based on the system
        architecture in case algorithm is not spelt out correctly or
        generic units are not defined. &lt;/Partha&gt;</div>
    </blockquote>
    TB&gt; It seems to me that this comment just reinforces my point (I
    hope I understand well): We need to let the destination come up its
    own way with its percentage of resource left, because there are so
    many possible implementations that it would be cumbersome and
    restrictive to impose any algorithm. Also just to be sure: The
    proposed weight is a percentage (a ratio): it has no unit. Part of
    the robustness and universality is derived from this characteristic.
    <br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:A11921905DA1564D9BCF64A6430A62390293A6AD@XMB-BGL-411.cisco.com"
      type="cite">
      <div>&nbsp;</div>
      <div>&nbsp;Then, it is obvious that you should also consider this
        resource as well, since you need it to process new sessions. So
        you can't say that you have 40% resource available to process
        calls if actually one of your resource needed has only 30%
        available left ! <br>
        Our recommendation is that the occupation (weight) reflects the
        MIN of ANY resource that must be used for call processing and
        that is constrained. <br>
        <br>
        I think it is on the contrary an advantage to not specify
        exactly how it is calculated, but to specify exactly what it is,
        or what it means instead (The most constrained resource ratio).
        <br>
      </div>
      <blockquote cite="" type="cite">
        <blockquote cite="" type="cite">
          <div>If not, I could not understand&nbsp;your argument.&nbsp;As you
            mentioned, all system will know CPU or memory usage and it
            is possible to come up the static or refreshable value
            saying that load shed has to happen when 85% of CPU
            utilization or&nbsp;90% of memory utilization. The different
            between our proposal&nbsp;is that there is no need&nbsp;of two&nbsp;value
            per message&nbsp;instead 1 value in each message &amp; 1&nbsp;value is
            static or in periodic manner&nbsp;&nbsp;&lt;/Partha&gt;</div>
        </blockquote>
        <div>Thierry&gt;&gt; We use a single value: see the example
          above.&nbsp;<span class="856275612-16032011"><font size="2"
              color="#0000ff" face="Arial">&nbsp;</font></span></div>
        <div><span class="856275612-16032011"><span
              class="856275612-16032011"><font size="2" color="#0000ff"
                face="Arial">&lt;Partha&gt;&nbsp;I'm proposing&nbsp;is to use
                single&nbsp;real time value with units like&nbsp;number of dialog
                and exchange the threshold&nbsp;(max dialog) using some other
                static interface.</font> <br>
            </span></span></div>
      </blockquote>
      <div>
        <div dir="ltr">
          <div><font size="2" face="Arial">&lt;Partha&gt; I agree that
              threshold varies from device to device&nbsp;<span
                class="625393921-16032011">varies </span>within the
              same company and huge difference<span
                class="625393921-16032011"> will be seen</span>&nbsp;in case
              of multi vendor scenario.&nbsp; It may be tough to manage in
              case it is provisioned statically as the threshold has to
              be tweaked based on the solutions. It is the main reason,
              I proposed to pass the threshold value from device while
              booting and refresh it whenever required. &nbsp;</font></div>
          <div>&nbsp;</div>
          <div><font size="2" face="Arial">Hope we both agrees to
              have&nbsp;that two variables x,y is required to solve th<span
                class="625393921-16032011">is</span> issue. </font></div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    Not at all ! We don't need any threshold to balance the load. We
    just need a weight: What you want is to balance the weights so that
    they tend to be identical everywhere: why do we need a threshold to
    do that ? <br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:A11921905DA1564D9BCF64A6430A62390293A6AD@XMB-BGL-411.cisco.com"
      type="cite">
      <div>
        <div dir="ltr">
          <div><font size="2" face="Arial">Load balancer (upstream
              entity)&nbsp;will use f(x,y) based on its own definition to
              share the load and shed the load towards single device. </font></div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    TB&gt; Again: We are not interested to redefine overload control and
    load shedding in this proposal: The new OLC draft has just be
    defined to do that.&nbsp; I've explained (and we should probably make it
    clear in the proposal) that both mechanisms work very well together
    while each has its own independent algorithm. <br>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:A11921905DA1564D9BCF64A6430A62390293A6AD@XMB-BGL-411.cisco.com"
      type="cite">
      <div>
        <div dir="ltr">
          <div><font size="2" face="Arial">The open issue is whether
              both x &amp; y has to be passed every time or x shall be
              passed in real time and y shall be passed once in a while.
            </font></div>
          <div>&nbsp;</div>
          <div><font size="2" face="Arial">BTW, I have written Media
              overload control requirement (<font size="3">draft-partha-dispatch-sip-media-overload-control-00)
                draft&nbsp;to identify the common problem which will be
                agreed upon&nbsp;lot of vendors&nbsp;and solve it based on the
                requirement. <br>
              </font></font></div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    TB&gt; This requirement was an entry for the OLC draft, is that your
    point ? <br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
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        http-equiv="Content-Type">
      <title>Thierry's signature</title>
      <meta content="Thierry Bessis" name="author">
      <big style="font-weight: bold;"><big><big><span
              style="font-family: French Script MT;">-- <br>
              Cordially, <br>
            </span></big></big></big><big style="font-weight: bold;"><big><big><span
              style="font-family: French Script MT;">Thierry Bessis</span></big></big></big>
      <div> </div>
      <div> </div>
      &nbsp;
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">IMS Solution: Architecture
        &amp; Product Management - ALTA Member</span><br
        style="font-family: Arial;">
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">&nbsp; Organization: ALU &gt; Carrier
        group &gt;
        Wireline BU &gt;&nbsp;</span><b> </b>IMS Sol Arch, SE, PdM<br>
      <img style="width: 242px; height: 66px;" alt="Alcatel-Lucent"
        src="cid:part1.02080605.00000807@alcatel-lucent.com"><br>
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From Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com  Thu Mar 17 13:21:51 2011
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Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 15:23:06 -0500
From: Thierry Bessis <Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com>
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To: Hadriel Kaplan <HKaplan@acmepacket.com>
References: <4D755B9E.6030008@bell-labs.com>	<4D7566C1.40605@cisco.com> <4D756C47.1000509@bell-labs.com> <086e01cbdd4e$6b8188f0$42849ad0$@packetizer.com> <4D7668B9.1020105@alcatel-lucent.com> <004601cbddd2$15b11ab0$41135010$@packetizer.com> <4D77B831.7000404@alcatel-lucent.com> <026f01cbded9$be15f290$3a41d7b0$@packetizer.com> <4D791595.2010703@alcatel-lucent.com> <A11921905DA1564D9BCF64A6430A62390293A694@XMB-BGL-411.cisco.com> <4D7A485E.2080602@alcatel-lucent.com> <A11921905DA1564D9BCF64A6430A623904BE39CC@XMB-BGL-411.cisco.com> <4D80ED57.7030709@alcatel-lucent.com> <A11921905DA1564D9BCF64A6430A62390293A6AD@XMB-BGL-411.cisco.com> <1D1713B6-18D6-4278-A387-9BB0E784C1DF@acmepacket.com>
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Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing
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Hi Kaplan,

Thank you for your comment: that's exactly the way I see it ! :-)

Cordially,

Thierry

>>> <Partha>  In case every device calculate its own algorithm for weight=
, then weight from one device may not same as other device. Say dev1 take=
s Min(CPU, Mem, DSP) then weight will be calculated as Min (70, 40, 30) =3D=
 30% and another device dev2 calculates Min (CPU, Mem) then weight will b=
e Min (70, 40) =3D 40% even though they are equally loaded. It is very im=
portant to have the common unit to solve this issue</Partha>
> HK>  By definition if dev1 calculates 30% and dev2 calculates 40%, then=
 they are *not* equally loaded.  Unless you're just saying "well what if =
they forgot to take a resource bottleneck into account". (in which case a=
ll bets are off anyway - it would be a bug)
>
>
>>>
>> TB>>  I think here you imply that the DSP is used as a finite pool of =
bearer channels resources, and your are probably using the DSP to process=
 bearers. May be you are an SBC or so.
>>
>> <partha>  Here is the interesting part, dev1 achieve the specific serv=
ice using DSP whereas dev2 achieve the same result using multi core/proce=
ssor architecture or softDSP or ASIC implementation. IMO, weight varies b=
ased on the system architecture in case algorithm is not spelt out correc=
tly or generic units are not defined.</Partha>
>
> HK>  But that's the point - we can't ever write a spec to specify all p=
ossible inputs into an algorithm for every possible architecture, because=
 each architecture has its own limitations/bottlenecks.  For example you'=
ve mentioned DSP's, and Thierry has mentioned CPU and memory; but there'r=
e also SRTP encryption resources, media recording resources, DTMF interwo=
rking resources, v4-v6 interworking resources, TCP-media resources, and s=
o on.  In some architectures the resources are the same, in some not.  So=
me SIP devices have no such resources, some have more.  We can't possibly=
 enumerate them all in a spec.
>
> HK>  So instead, the spec will just say: "whatever your limiting factor=
 is at any given time, use it for your numbers".  Only the developers of =
the systems know what their limiting factors are, after all.
>
>
>>
>>> <Partha>  I'm proposing is to use single real time value with units l=
ike number of dialog and exchange the threshold (max dialog) using some o=
ther static interface.
>> <Partha>  dialog is only one of the unit. we will able to work out oth=
er unit which acceptable to everybody. As Paul Jones mentioned in another=
 mail thread, SCE is working well in terms H.323 network for lot of years=
 already but it is not working in SIP entity like SBC.</Partha>
> HK>  It worked in H.323 because everything was a call and consumed equa=
l resources, and you were treating it like a PRI with a fixed/configured =
number of channels, and things rarely changed.  Arguably that's frequentl=
y also true for SIP across SIP-trunks.  Unfortunately, that's the *only* =
case it works well in, afaict.  Inside the service provider and peering b=
etween them things aren't that "clean" (or restricted, depending on how y=
ou view the world).  It's much harder to have fixed limits of dialogs/cha=
nnels/calls between a big mesh network of systems, where the members of t=
he mesh (the number of discrete systems/blades) grow and shrink relativel=
y frequently.  And it's gotten even worse with SUBSCRIBE dialogs and othe=
r non-call/non-register traffic consuming resources.  That's not to say i=
t isn't possible to do, but it ends up wasting resources because you can'=
t take advantage of statistical multiplexing, and you have to re-configur=
e lot of systems frequently.
>
> -hadriel
>

--=20
--=20
Cordially,
Thierry Bessis
IMS Solution: Architecture & Product Management - ALTA Member
   Organization: ALU > Carrier group > Wireline BU > **IMS Sol Arch, SE, =
PdM
Alcatel-Lucent
1960 Lucent Lane - Room 6L-517
   Naperville, IL  60563  U S
   Tel/Fax: +1 630 979 7989
   Corporate IM: tbessis

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    Hi Kaplan, <br>
    <br>
    Thank you for your comment: that's exactly the way I see it ! <span
      class="moz-smiley-s1"><span> :-) </span></span><br>
    <br>
    Cordially, <br>
    <br>
    Thierry<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:1D1713B6-18D6-4278-A387-9BB0E784C1DF@acmepacket.com"
      type="cite">
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <pre wrap="">
&lt;Partha&gt; In case every device calculate its own algorithm for weight, then weight from one device may not same as other device. Say dev1 takes Min(CPU, Mem, DSP) then weight will be calculated as Min (70, 40, 30) = 30% and another device dev2 calculates Min (CPU, Mem) then weight will be Min (70, 40) = 40% even though they are equally loaded. It is very important to have the common unit to solve this issue &lt;/Partha&gt;
</pre>
        </blockquote>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">
HK&gt; By definition if dev1 calculates 30% and dev2 calculates 40%, then they are *not* equally loaded.  Unless you're just saying "well what if they forgot to take a resource bottleneck into account". (in which case all bets are off anyway - it would be a bug)


</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <pre wrap=""> 
</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <pre wrap="">TB &gt;&gt; I think here you imply that the DSP is used as a finite pool of bearer channels resources, and your are probably using the DSP to process bearers. May be you are an SBC or so.
 
&lt;partha&gt; Here is the interesting part, dev1 achieve the specific service using DSP whereas dev2 achieve the same result using multi core/processor architecture or softDSP or ASIC implementation. IMO, weight varies based on the system architecture in case algorithm is not spelt out correctly or generic units are not defined. &lt;/Partha&gt;
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">

HK&gt; But that's the point - we can't ever write a spec to specify all possible inputs into an algorithm for every possible architecture, because each architecture has its own limitations/bottlenecks.  For example you've mentioned DSP's, and Thierry has mentioned CPU and memory; but there're also SRTP encryption resources, media recording resources, DTMF interworking resources, v4-v6 interworking resources, TCP-media resources, and so on.  In some architectures the resources are the same, in some not.  Some SIP devices have no such resources, some have more.  We can't possibly enumerate them all in a spec.

HK&gt; So instead, the spec will just say: "whatever your limiting factor is at any given time, use it for your numbers".  Only the developers of the systems know what their limiting factors are, after all.


</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap=""> 
</pre>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <pre wrap="">
&lt;Partha&gt; I'm proposing is to use single real time value with units like number of dialog and exchange the threshold (max dialog) using some other static interface. 
</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <pre wrap="">&lt;Partha&gt; dialog is only one of the unit. we will able to work out other unit which acceptable to everybody. As Paul Jones mentioned in another mail thread, SCE is working well in terms H.323 network for lot of years already but it is not working in SIP entity like SBC.   &lt;/Partha&gt;
</pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">
HK&gt; It worked in H.323 because everything was a call and consumed equal resources, and you were treating it like a PRI with a fixed/configured number of channels, and things rarely changed.  Arguably that's frequently also true for SIP across SIP-trunks.  Unfortunately, that's the *only* case it works well in, afaict.  Inside the service provider and peering between them things aren't that "clean" (or restricted, depending on how you view the world).  It's much harder to have fixed limits of dialogs/channels/calls between a big mesh network of systems, where the members of the mesh (the number of discrete systems/blades) grow and shrink relatively frequently.  And it's gotten even worse with SUBSCRIBE dialogs and other non-call/non-register traffic consuming resources.  That's not to say it isn't possible to do, but it ends up wasting resources because you can't take advantage of statistical multiplexing, and you have to re-configure lot of systems frequently.

-hadriel

</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
      <meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
        http-equiv="Content-Type">
      <title>Thierry's signature</title>
      <meta content="Thierry Bessis" name="author">
      <big style="font-weight: bold;"><big><big><span
              style="font-family: French Script MT;">-- <br>
              Cordially, <br>
            </span></big></big></big><big style="font-weight: bold;"><big><big><span
              style="font-family: French Script MT;">Thierry Bessis</span></big></big></big>
      <div> </div>
      <div> </div>
      &nbsp;
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">IMS Solution: Architecture
        &amp; Product Management - ALTA Member</span><br
        style="font-family: Arial;">
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">&nbsp; Organization: ALU &gt; Carrier
        group &gt;
        Wireline BU &gt;&nbsp;</span><b> </b>IMS Sol Arch, SE, PdM<br>
      <img style="width: 242px; height: 66px;" alt="Alcatel-Lucent"
        src="cid:part1.05010708.04000300@alcatel-lucent.com"><br>
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        Arial;">1960 Lucent Lane - Room 6L-517</span><br
        style="font-family: Arial;">
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">&nbsp; Naperville, IL&nbsp;
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        S</span><br style="font-family: Arial;">
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      <small>My Calendar:&nbsp;&nbsp;
        <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=new_frs3175%40yahoo.fr">www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=new_frs3175%40yahoo.fr</a><br>
        ALTA Hot Line: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://alta.all.alcatel-lucent.com/hotline">http://alta.all.alcatel-lucent.com/hotline</a></small><br>
      <br>
      <small>Conference information:<br>
        2801 2801 (US):+1 800 771 8734 - (F):+33 800 941 674 - Access
        Code:
        9797989<br>
        others countries see: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://all.alcatel-lucent.com/audio">http://all.alcatel-lucent.com/audio</a></small><br>
      <br>
      <big style="font-weight: bold;"><big><span style="font-family:
            French Script MT;">Upcoming planned Business Trip:
            12 April - 14 April 2011</span></big></big><br>
      <big style="font-weight: bold;"><big><span style="font-family:
            French Script MT;">Upcoming planned Vacation: None</span></big></big>
    </div>
  </body>
</html>

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References: <4D755B9E.6030008@bell-labs.com>	<4D7566C1.40605@cisco.com> <4D756C47.1000509@bell-labs.com> <086e01cbdd4e$6b8188f0$42849ad0$@packetizer.com> <4D7668B9.1020105@alcatel-lucent.com> <004601cbddd2$15b11ab0$41135010$@packetizer.com> <4D77B831.7000404@alcatel-lucent.com> <026f01cbded9$be15f290$3a41d7b0$@packetizer.com> <4D791595.2010703@alcatel-lucent.com> <A11921905DA1564D9BCF64A6430A62390293A694@XMB-BGL-411.cisco.com> <4D7A485E.2080602@alcatel-lucent.com> <A11921905DA1564D9BCF64A6430A623904BE39CC@XMB-BGL-411.cisco.com> <4D80ED57.7030709@alcatel-lucent.com> <A11921905DA1564D9BCF64A6430A62390293A6AD@XMB-BGL-411.cisco.com> <1D1713B6-18D6-4278-A387-9BB0E784C1DF@acmepacket.com> <4D826DAA.7020704@alcatel-lucent.com>
From: "Parthasarathi R (partr)" <partr@cisco.com>
To: "Thierry Bessis" <Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com>, "Hadriel Kaplan" <HKaplan@acmepacket.com>
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Mar 2011 22:07:12.0920 (UTC) FILETIME=[AB1B4980:01CBE4EF]
Cc: dispatch@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing
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Thierry/Hadriel,

My understanding about Thierry proposal from the mail thread is that =
(downstream) system load is calculated in terms of percentage, =
percentage is the unit and passed across to load balancer. The =
normalization to weight is a optional process.=20

Please read inline.

Thanks

Partha=20


________________________________

From: Thierry Bessis [mailto:Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com]
Sent: Fri 3/18/2011 1:53 AM
To: Hadriel Kaplan
Cc: Parthasarathi R (partr); dispatch@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing


Hi Kaplan,=20

Thank you for your comment: that's exactly the way I see it ! :-)=20

Cordially,=20

Thierry



			<Partha> In case every device calculate its own algorithm for weight, =
then weight from one device may not same as other device. Say dev1 takes =
Min(CPU, Mem, DSP) then weight will be calculated as Min (70, 40, 30) =
=3D 30% and another device dev2 calculates Min (CPU, Mem) then weight =
will be Min (70, 40) =3D 40% even though they are equally loaded. It is =
very important to have the common unit to solve this issue </Partha>

	HK> By definition if dev1 calculates 30% and dev2 calculates 40%, then =
they are *not* equally loaded.  Unless you're just saying "well what if =
they forgot to take a resource bottleneck into account". (in which case =
all bets are off anyway - it would be a bug)
	<partha> It is not required to be bug in the system but may be =
misinterpretation of the unit termed as "weight" between two systems. =
I'll explain with real time example:

	In case Person X report his weight as 150 then I'll assume that person =
X is overweight(may be looks like giant) because IMO, weight above 100 =
for a person is high. Actually, Person X is not overweight in case he =
mentioned his weight in terms of pounds(lb) but I assume with my =
standard metric of Kilogram(kg) for weight. Hope you agree here that =
unit has to be spelt out explicitly or else, it possibly leads to =
misinterpretation.=20

	This may happen in the system implementation as well because of the =
multiple resource usage. Each implementator will come up with his own =
unit under the name of weight which confuses load balancer in case =
metric is not spelt out properly. </Partha>=20

		TB >> I think here you imply that the DSP is used as a finite pool of =
bearer channels resources, and your are probably using the DSP to =
process bearers. May be you are an SBC or so.
		=20
		<partha> Here is the interesting part, dev1 achieve the specific =
service using DSP whereas dev2 achieve the same result using multi =
core/processor architecture or softDSP or ASIC implementation. IMO, =
weight varies based on the system architecture in case algorithm is not =
spelt out correctly or generic units are not defined. </Partha>

	HK> But that's the point - we can't ever write a spec to specify all =
possible inputs into an algorithm for every possible architecture, =
because each architecture has its own limitations/bottlenecks.  For =
example you've mentioned DSP's, and Thierry has mentioned CPU and =
memory; but there're also SRTP encryption resources, media recording =
resources, DTMF interworking resources, v4-v6 interworking resources, =
TCP-media resources, and so on.  In some architectures the resources are =
the same, in some not.  Some SIP devices have no such resources, some =
have more.  We can't possibly enumerate them all in a spec.
=09
	HK> So instead, the spec will just say: "whatever your limiting factor =
is at any given time, use it for your numbers".  Only the developers of =
the systems know what their limiting factors are, after all.
=09
=09

		=20

			<Partha> I'm proposing is to use single real time value with units =
like number of dialog and exchange the threshold (max dialog) using some =
other static interface.=20

		<Partha> dialog is only one of the unit. we will able to work out =
other unit which acceptable to everybody. As Paul Jones mentioned in =
another mail thread, SCE is working well in terms H.323 network for lot =
of years already but it is not working in SIP entity like SBC.   =
</Partha>

	HK> It worked in H.323 because everything was a call and consumed equal =
resources, and you were treating it like a PRI with a fixed/configured =
number of channels, and things rarely changed.  Arguably that's =
frequently also true for SIP across SIP-trunks.  Unfortunately, that's =
the *only* case it works well in, afaict.  Inside the service provider =
and peering between them things aren't that "clean" (or restricted, =
depending on how you view the world).  It's much harder to have fixed =
limits of dialogs/channels/calls between a big mesh network of systems, =
where the members of the mesh (the number of discrete systems/blades) =
grow and shrink relatively frequently.  And it's gotten even worse with =
SUBSCRIBE dialogs and other non-call/non-register traffic consuming =
resources.  That's not to say it isn't possible to do, but it ends up =
wasting resources because you can't take advantage of statistical =
multiplexing, and you have to re-configure lot of systems frequently.
=09
	-hadriel
=09


--=20
--=20
Cordially,=20
Thierry Bessis=20
  IMS Solution: Architecture & Product Management - ALTA Member
  Organization: ALU > Carrier group > Wireline BU >  IMS Sol Arch, SE, =
PdM
=20
  1960 Lucent Lane - Room 6L-517
  Naperville, IL  60563  U S
  Tel/Fax: +1 630 979 7989
  Corporate IM: tbessis

Engage: https://engage.alcatel-lucent.com/people/tbessis
My Calendar:   =
www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=3Dnew_frs3175%40yahoo.fr
ALTA Hot Line: http://alta.all.alcatel-lucent.com/hotline

Conference information:
2801 2801 (US):+1 800 771 8734 - (F):+33 800 941 674 - Access Code: =
9797989
others countries see: http://all.alcatel-lucent.com/audio

Upcoming planned Business Trip: 12 April - 14 April 2011
Upcoming planned Vacation: None=20

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<HTML dir=3Dltr><HEAD><TITLE>Thierry's signature</TITLE>=0A=
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dunicode" http-equiv=3DContent-Type>=0A=
<META name=3DGENERATOR content=3D"MSHTML 8.00.6001.18928"></HEAD>=0A=
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff text=3D#000000>=0A=
<DIV dir=3Dltr id=3DidOWAReplyText44740>=0A=
<DIV dir=3Dltr><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2 =
face=3DArial>Thierry/Hadriel,</FONT><SPAN lang=3DEN></DIV>=0A=
<DIV dir=3Dltr>=0A=
<P><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial>My understanding about&nbsp;Thierry =
proposal from the mail thread is that (downstream) system load is =
calculated in terms of percentage, percentage is the unit and passed =
across to load balancer. The normalization to weight is a optional =
process. </FONT></P>=0A=
<P><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial>Please read inline.</FONT></P>=0A=
<P><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial>Thanks</FONT></P>=0A=
<P><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial>Partha</FONT> </P></SPAN></DIV></DIV>=0A=
<DIV dir=3Dltr><BR>=0A=
<HR tabIndex=3D-1>=0A=
<FONT size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><B>From:</B> Thierry Bessis =
[mailto:Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Fri 3/18/2011 =
1:53 AM<BR><B>To:</B> Hadriel Kaplan<BR><B>Cc:</B> Parthasarathi R =
(partr); dispatch@ietf.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [dispatch] SIP load =
balancing<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>=0A=
<DIV>Hi Kaplan, <BR><BR>Thank you for your comment: that's exactly the =
way I see it ! <SPAN class=3Dmoz-smiley-s1><SPAN>:-) =
</SPAN></SPAN><BR><BR>Cordially, <BR><BR>Thierry<BR><BR>=0A=
<BLOCKQUOTE cite=3D"" type=3D"cite">=0A=
<BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite">=0A=
<BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE>&lt;Partha&gt; In case every device =
calculate its own algorithm for weight, then weight from one device may =
not same as other device. Say dev1 takes Min(CPU, Mem, DSP) then weight =
will be calculated as Min (70, 40, 30) =3D 30% and another device dev2 =
calculates Min (CPU, Mem) then weight will be Min (70, 40) =3D 40% even =
though they are equally loaded. It is very important to have the common =
unit to solve this issue &lt;/Partha&gt;=0A=
</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE>HK&gt; By definition if dev1 =
calculates 30% and dev2 calculates 40%, then they are *not* equally =
loaded.  Unless you're just saying "well what if they forgot to take a =
resource bottleneck into account". (in which case all bets are off =
anyway - it would be a bug)</PRE><PRE><SPAN lang=3DEN><P>&lt;partha&gt; =
It is not required to be bug in the system but may be misinterpretation =
of the unit termed as "weight" between two systems. I'll explain with =
real time example:</P><P>In case Person X report his weight as 150 then =
I'll assume that person X is overweight(may be looks like giant) because =
IMO, weight above 100 for a person is high. Actually, Person X is not =
overweight in case he mentioned his weight in terms of pounds(lb) but I =
assume with my standard metric of Kilogram(kg) for weight. Hope you =
agree here that unit has to be spelt out explicitly or else, it possibly =
leads to misinterpretation. </P><P>This may happen in the system =
implementation as well because of the multiple resource usage. Each =
implementator will come up with his own unit under the name of weight =
which confuses load balancer in case metric is not spelt out properly. =
&lt;/Partha&gt;</SPAN> =0A=
</P></PRE>=0A=
<BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE>TB &gt;&gt; I think here you imply that =
the DSP is used as a finite pool of bearer channels resources, and your =
are probably using the DSP to process bearers. May be you are an SBC or =
so.=0A=
 =0A=
&lt;partha&gt; Here is the interesting part, dev1 achieve the specific =
service using DSP whereas dev2 achieve the same result using multi =
core/processor architecture or softDSP or ASIC implementation. IMO, =
weight varies based on the system architecture in case algorithm is not =
spelt out correctly or generic units are not defined. &lt;/Partha&gt;=0A=
</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE>HK&gt; But that's the point - we can't ever =
write a spec to specify all possible inputs into an algorithm for every =
possible architecture, because each architecture has its own =
limitations/bottlenecks.  For example you've mentioned DSP's, and =
Thierry has mentioned CPU and memory; but there're also SRTP encryption =
resources, media recording resources, DTMF interworking resources, v4-v6 =
interworking resources, TCP-media resources, and so on.  In some =
architectures the resources are the same, in some not.  Some SIP devices =
have no such resources, some have more.  We can't possibly enumerate =
them all in a spec.=0A=
=0A=
HK&gt; So instead, the spec will just say: "whatever your limiting =
factor is at any given time, use it for your numbers".  Only the =
developers of the systems know what their limiting factors are, after =
all.=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
</PRE>=0A=
<BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE> =0A=
</PRE>=0A=
<BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE>&lt;Partha&gt; I'm proposing is to use =
single real time value with units like number of dialog and exchange the =
threshold (max dialog) using some other static interface. =0A=
</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE>&lt;Partha&gt; dialog is only one of the unit. =
we will able to work out other unit which acceptable to everybody. As =
Paul Jones mentioned in another mail thread, SCE is working well in =
terms H.323 network for lot of years already but it is not working in =
SIP entity like SBC.   &lt;/Partha&gt;=0A=
</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE>HK&gt; It worked in H.323 because everything was =
a call and consumed equal resources, and you were treating it like a PRI =
with a fixed/configured number of channels, and things rarely changed.  =
Arguably that's frequently also true for SIP across SIP-trunks.  =
Unfortunately, that's the *only* case it works well in, afaict.  Inside =
the service provider and peering between them things aren't that "clean" =
(or restricted, depending on how you view the world).  It's much harder =
to have fixed limits of dialogs/channels/calls between a big mesh =
network of systems, where the members of the mesh (the number of =
discrete systems/blades) grow and shrink relatively frequently.  And =
it's gotten even worse with SUBSCRIBE dialogs and other =
non-call/non-register traffic consuming resources.  That's not to say it =
isn't possible to do, but it ends up wasting resources because you can't =
take advantage of statistical multiplexing, and you have to re-configure =
lot of systems frequently.=0A=
=0A=
-hadriel=0A=
=0A=
</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>=0A=
<DIV class=3Dmoz-signature>-- <BR><BIG style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: =
bold"><BIG><BIG><SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: French Script MT">-- =
<BR>Cordially, <BR></SPAN></BIG></BIG></BIG><BIG style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: =
bold"><BIG><BIG><SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: French Script MT">Thierry =
Bessis</SPAN></BIG></BIG></BIG> =0A=
<DIV></DIV>=0A=
<DIV></DIV>&nbsp; <SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial">IMS Solution: =
Architecture &amp; Product Management - ALTA Member</SPAN><BR =
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp; =
Organization: ALU &gt; Carrier group &gt; Wireline BU =
&gt;&nbsp;</SPAN><B> </B>IMS Sol Arch, SE, PdM<BR><IMG style=3D"WIDTH: =
242px; HEIGHT: 66px" alt=3DAlcatel-Lucent =
src=3D"al_corp_h_3d_16mm.jpg"><BR>&nbsp; <SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"></SPAN><SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial">1960 Lucent Lane - Room =
6L-517</SPAN><BR style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><SPAN =
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp; Naperville, IL&nbsp; 60563&nbsp; U =
S</SPAN><BR style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">&nbsp; Tel/Fax: +1 630 979 7989</SPAN><BR style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial">&nbsp; Corporate IM: =
tbessis</SPAN><BR><SMALL><BR></SMALL>Engage: <A =
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href=3D"https://engage.alcatel-lucent.com/people/tbessis">https://engage.=
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<A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-abbreviated =
href=3D"http://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=3Dnew_frs3175%40yahoo.fr=
">www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=3Dnew_frs3175%40yahoo.fr</A><BR>ALTA =
Hot Line: <A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-freetext =
href=3D"http://alta.all.alcatel-lucent.com/hotline">http://alta.all.alcat=
el-lucent.com/hotline</A></SMALL><BR><BR><SMALL>Conference =
information:<BR>2801 2801 (US):+1 800 771 8734 - (F):+33 800 941 674 - =
Access Code: 9797989<BR>others countries see: <A =
class=3Dmoz-txt-link-freetext =
href=3D"http://all.alcatel-lucent.com/audio">http://all.alcatel-lucent.co=
m/audio</A></SMALL><BR><BR><BIG style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold"><BIG><SPAN =
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: French Script MT">Upcoming planned Business Trip: =
12 April - 14 April 2011</SPAN></BIG></BIG><BR><BIG =
style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold"><BIG><SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: French =
Script MT">Upcoming planned Vacation: None</SPAN></BIG></BIG> =
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From spromano@unina.it  Thu Mar 17 16:46:07 2011
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From: Simon Pietro Romano <spromano@unina.it>
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 00:46:24 +0100
To: Gonzalo Salgueiro <gsalguei@cisco.com>
Cc: "vpascual@acmepacket.com" <vpascual@acmepacket.com>, "sip-overload@ietf.org" <sip-overload@ietf.org>, "keith.drage@alcatel-lucent.com" <keith.drage@alcatel-lucent.com>, "HKaplan@acmepacket.com" <HKaplan@acmepacket.com>, "dispatch@ietf.org" <dispatch@ietf.org>, "Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com" <Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com>, "dispatch-bounces@ietf.org" <dispatch-bounces@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [dispatch] Bar BOF request for SIP Load balancing & (media)	overload handling
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Dear Partha,

thank you for proposing this interesting bar bof. I'll be glad to participat=
e and I'm also willing to support remote participants in the framework of th=
e IETF Meetecho experiment, if needed.

Simon

Il giorno 17/mar/2011, alle ore 16:28, Gonzalo Salgueiro <gsalguei@cisco.com=
> ha scritto:

> This is my situation as well. I would love to join but will not be in atte=
ndance.
>=20
> Gonzalo
>=20
> On Mar 17, 2011, at 10:24 AM, Janet P Gunn wrote:
>=20
>>=20
>> Partha,=20
>>=20
>> I am definitely interested in the subject, but I will, unfortunately, not=
 be in Prague.=20
>>=20
>> If it were possible to hold the bar bof somewhere with an audio feed and j=
abber room, I would definitely participate remotely.=20
>>=20
>> Thanks=20
>>=20
>> Janet
>>=20
>> This is a PRIVATE message. If you are not the intended recipient, please d=
elete without copying and kindly advise us by e-mail of the mistake in deliv=
ery.=20
>> NOTE: Regardless of content, this e-mail shall not operate to bind CSC to=
 any order or other contract unless pursuant to explicit written agreement o=
r government initiative expressly permitting the use of e-mail for such purp=
ose.=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> From:	"Parthasarathi R (partr)" <partr@cisco.com>
>> To:	<dworley@avaya.com>, "Cullen Jennings (fluffy)" <fluffy@cisco.com>,=
 "Mike Hammer (hmmr)" <hmmr@cisco.com>, <HKaplan@acmepacket.com>, <keith.dra=
ge@alcatel-lucent.com>, <john.elwell@siemens-enterprise.com>, <mary.ietf.bar=
nes@gmail.com>, "Paul Kyzivat (pkyzivat)" <pkyzivat@cisco.com>, <paulej@pack=
etizer.com>, <rjsparks@nostrum.com>, <spromano@unina.it>, <Thierry.Bessis@al=
catel-lucent.com>, <vkg@bell-labs.com>, <vpascual@acmepacket.com>
>> Cc:	dispatch@ietf.org, sip-overload@ietf.org
>> Date:	03/16/2011 11:34 PM
>> Subject: 	[dispatch] Bar BOF request for SIP Load balancing & (media)=
        overload handling
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> Hi all,=20
>>  =20
>> There is lot of discussion about SIP load balancing and overload handling=
 in Dispatch alias. I wish to have discussion about SIP Load balancing & (me=
dia) overload handling at IETF-80 Prague. I guess that Bar BOF is the idle w=
ay to start the discussion about this topic to common understanding and iden=
tify the way to move forward. Please suggest me in case any other mechanism e=
xists in IETF.=20
>>  =20
>> I have included the folks who has shown the interest in this topic as par=
t of SIP Load balancing & overload handling, dispatch WG chairs, CCed to Dis=
patch and SoC WG alias. AFAIK, the couple of drafts are related to this prob=
lem:=20
>>  =20
>> draft-bessis-dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing-00
>> draft-partha-dispatch-sip-media-overload-control-00.txt
>> draft-jones-sip-overload-sce-00
>> draft-partha-dispatch-resource-availability-00=20
>> draft-sparks-sipping-load-00=20
>>  =20
>> Please let me about others interest and opinion to have Bar BOF for SIP L=
oad balancing & overload handling during IETF-80.=20
>>  =20
>> Thanks=20
>> Partha_______________________________________________
>> dispatch mailing list
>> dispatch@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> dispatch mailing list
>> dispatch@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> dispatch mailing list
> dispatch@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch

--Apple-Mail-5--24150602
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<html><body bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><div>Dear Partha,</div><div><br></div><div>thank you for proposing this interesting bar bof. I'll be glad to participate and I'm also willing to support remote participants in the framework of the IETF Meetecho experiment, if needed.</div><div><br></div><div>Simon<br><br>Il giorno 17/mar/2011, alle ore 16:28, Gonzalo Salgueiro &lt;<a href="mailto:gsalguei@cisco.com">gsalguei@cisco.com</a>&gt; ha scritto:<br><br></div><div></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>This is my situation as well. I would love to join but will not be in attendance.<div><br></div><div>Gonzalo</div><div><br><div><div>On Mar 17, 2011, at 10:24 AM, Janet P Gunn wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite">
<br><font size="2" face="sans-serif">Partha,</font>
<br>
<br><font size="2" face="sans-serif">I am definitely interested in the subject,
but I will, unfortunately, not be in Prague.</font>
<br>
<br><font size="2" face="sans-serif">If it were possible to hold the bar
bof somewhere with an audio feed and jabber room, I would definitely participate
remotely.</font>
<br>
<br><font size="2" face="sans-serif">Thanks</font>
<br>
<br><font size="2" face="sans-serif">Janet<br>
<br>
This is a PRIVATE message. If you are not the intended recipient, please
delete without copying and kindly advise us by e-mail of the mistake in
delivery. <br>
NOTE: Regardless of content, this e-mail shall not operate to bind CSC
to any order or other contract unless pursuant to explicit written agreement
or government initiative expressly permitting the use of e-mail for such
purpose.</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<table width="100%">
<tbody><tr valign="top">
<td><font size="1" color="#5f5f5f" face="sans-serif">From:</font>
</td><td><font size="1" face="sans-serif">"Parthasarathi R (partr)"
&lt;<a href="mailto:partr@cisco.com"><a href="mailto:partr@cisco.com">partr@cisco.com</a></a>&gt;</font>
</td></tr><tr valign="top">
<td><font size="1" color="#5f5f5f" face="sans-serif">To:</font>
</td><td><font size="1" face="sans-serif">&lt;<a href="mailto:dworley@avaya.com"><a href="mailto:dworley@avaya.com">dworley@avaya.com</a></a>&gt;, "Cullen
Jennings (fluffy)" &lt;<a href="mailto:fluffy@cisco.com"><a href="mailto:fluffy@cisco.com">fluffy@cisco.com</a></a>&gt;, "Mike Hammer (hmmr)"
&lt;<a href="mailto:hmmr@cisco.com"><a href="mailto:hmmr@cisco.com">hmmr@cisco.com</a></a>&gt;, &lt;<a href="mailto:HKaplan@acmepacket.com"><a href="mailto:HKaplan@acmepacket.com">HKaplan@acmepacket.com</a></a>&gt;, &lt;<a href="mailto:keith.drage@alcatel-lucent.com"><a href="mailto:keith.drage@alcatel-lucent.com">keith.drage@alcatel-lucent.com</a></a>&gt;,
&lt;<a href="mailto:john.elwell@siemens-enterprise.com"><a href="mailto:john.elwell@siemens-enterprise.com">john.elwell@siemens-enterprise.com</a></a>&gt;, &lt;<a href="mailto:mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com"><a href="mailto:mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com">mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com</a></a>&gt;,
"Paul Kyzivat (pkyzivat)" &lt;<a href="mailto:pkyzivat@cisco.com"><a href="mailto:pkyzivat@cisco.com">pkyzivat@cisco.com</a></a>&gt;, &lt;<a href="mailto:paulej@packetizer.com"><a href="mailto:paulej@packetizer.com">paulej@packetizer.com</a></a>&gt;,
&lt;<a href="mailto:rjsparks@nostrum.com"><a href="mailto:rjsparks@nostrum.com">rjsparks@nostrum.com</a></a>&gt;, &lt;<a href="mailto:spromano@unina.it"><a href="mailto:spromano@unina.it">spromano@unina.it</a></a>&gt;, &lt;<a href="mailto:Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com"><a href="mailto:Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com">Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com</a></a>&gt;,
&lt;<a href="mailto:vkg@bell-labs.com"><a href="mailto:vkg@bell-labs.com">vkg@bell-labs.com</a></a>&gt;, &lt;<a href="mailto:vpascual@acmepacket.com"><a href="mailto:vpascual@acmepacket.com">vpascual@acmepacket.com</a></a>&gt;</font>
</td></tr><tr>
<td valign="top"><font size="1" color="#5f5f5f" face="sans-serif">Cc:</font>
</td><td><font size="1" face="sans-serif"><a href="mailto:dispatch@ietf.org"><a href="mailto:dispatch@ietf.org">dispatch@ietf.org</a></a>, <a href="mailto:sip-overload@ietf.org"><a href="mailto:sip-overload@ietf.org">sip-overload@ietf.org</a></a></font>
</td></tr><tr valign="top">
<td><font size="1" color="#5f5f5f" face="sans-serif">Date:</font>
</td><td><font size="1" face="sans-serif">03/16/2011 11:34 PM</font>
</td></tr><tr valign="top">
<td><font size="1" color="#5f5f5f" face="sans-serif">Subject:</font>
</td><td><font size="1" face="sans-serif">[dispatch] Bar BOF request for SIP Load
balancing &amp; (media) &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;overload handling</font></td></tr></tbody></table>
<br>
<hr noshade="">
<br>
<br>
<br><font size="2" face="Arial">Hi all,</font>
<br><font size="2" face="Arial">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size="2" face="Arial">There is lot of discussion about SIP load
balancing and overload handling in Dispatch alias. I wish to have discussion
about SIP Load balancing &amp; (media) overload handling at IETF-80 Prague.
I guess that Bar BOF is the idle way to start the discussion about this
topic to common understanding and identify the way to move forward. Please
suggest me in case any other mechanism exists in IETF.</font>
<br><font size="2" face="Arial">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size="2" face="Arial">I have included the folks who has shown the
interest in this topic as part of SIP Load balancing &amp; overload handling,
dispatch WG chairs, CCed to Dispatch and SoC WG alias. AFAIK, the couple
of drafts are related to this problem:</font>
<br><font size="2" face="Arial">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size="2" face="Arial">draft-bessis-dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing-00<br>
draft-partha-dispatch-sip-media-overload-control-00.txt<br>
draft-jones-sip-overload-sce-00<br>
draft-partha-dispatch-resource-availability-00 <br>
draft-sparks-sipping-load-00</font>
<br><font size="2" face="Arial">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size="2" face="Arial">Please let me about others interest and opinion
to have Bar BOF for SIP Load balancing &amp; overload handling during IETF-80.</font>
<br><font size="2" face="Arial">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size="2" face="Arial">Thanks</font>
<br><font size="2" face="Arial">Partha</font><tt><font size="2">_______________________________________________<br>
dispatch mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:dispatch@ietf.org"><a href="mailto:dispatch@ietf.org">dispatch@ietf.org</a></a><br>
</font></tt><a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch"><tt><font size="2">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch</font></tt></a><tt><font size="2"><br>
</font></tt>
<br>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>dispatch mailing list<br><a href="mailto:dispatch@ietf.org"><a href="mailto:dispatch@ietf.org">dispatch@ietf.org</a></a><br><a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch</a><br></blockquote></div><br></div></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div><span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span>dispatch mailing list</span><br><span><a href="mailto:dispatch@ietf.org">dispatch@ietf.org</a></span><br><span><a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch</a></span><br></div></blockquote></body></html>
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From dean.willis@softarmor.com  Fri Mar 18 20:32:41 2011
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References: <A909891D-3AE5-4C1D-B414-B4CAAA607729@cisco.com> <C9A6719F.1A18E%henry.sinnreich@gmail.com> <20110316211231.0f54d962@rainpc>
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Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 22:34:06 -0500
To: Lorenzo Miniero <lorenzo@meetecho.com>
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Subject: Re: [dispatch] New draft on RTCWeb Requirements and API draft-jennings-rtcweb-api
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On Mar 16, 2011, at 3:12 PM, Lorenzo Miniero wrote:
>=20
> We implemented something like that for our system, also documented in =
a paper lately: basically a controller protocol that tunnels every other =
protocol on top of HTTP to bypass restrictive firewalls. Since it works, =
we were also thinking about a "lightweight" version of such protocol to =
only convey RTP specifically for our web interface, considering RTP is =
the only protocol we couldn't wrap via JavaScript so far. So I agree =
that such a TURN-like protocol would be a good idea for the WG.


I've recently been considering the merits of a VPN that looks like =
MobileIP over HTTPS over Tor. It would let one run any kind of =
communications traffic (albeit with odd time-domain distributions), =
while one would appear to be simply running HTTP traffic to various =
innocuous websites. The problem, of course, is that traffic that is not =
Web surfing has a very different time.size fingerprint, and could easily =
be detected. However, the approach would seem to work very well for =
letting people do actual Web traffic obscurely.=20

If one took the Tor layer out of my idea-space, then one might get =
something very much like your approach. Can you share a link to your =
paper?


--
Dean=

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<html><head></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; =
"><br><div><div>On Mar 16, 2011, at 3:12 PM, Lorenzo Miniero =
wrote:</div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><font =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" color=3D"#000000"><br></font>We implemented =
something like that for our system, also documented in a paper lately: =
basically a controller protocol that tunnels every other protocol on top =
of HTTP to bypass restrictive firewalls. Since it works, we were also =
thinking about a "lightweight" version of such protocol to only convey =
RTP specifically for our web interface, considering RTP is the only =
protocol we couldn't wrap via JavaScript so far. So I agree that such a =
TURN-like protocol would be a good idea for the =
WG.<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div><br><div>I've recently =
been considering the merits of a VPN that looks like MobileIP over HTTPS =
over Tor. It would let one run any kind of communications traffic =
(albeit with odd time-domain distributions), while one would appear to =
be simply running HTTP traffic to various innocuous websites. The =
problem, of course, is that traffic that is not Web surfing has a very =
different time.size fingerprint, and could easily be detected. However, =
the approach would seem to work very well for letting people do actual =
Web traffic obscurely.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>If one took the =
Tor layer out of my idea-space, then one might get something very much =
like your approach. Can you share a link to your =
paper?</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>--</div><div>Dean</div></bo=
dy></html>=

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---------- Header Originale -----------=0A=0ADa      : "Dean Willis" dean=
.willis@softarmor.com=0AA          : "Lorenzo Miniero" lorenzo@meetecho.c=
om=0ACc          : "Henry Sinnreich" henry.sinnreich@gmail.com,"DISPATCH =
list" dispatch@ietf.org=0AData      : Fri, 18 Mar 2011 22:34:06 -0500=0AO=
ggetto : Re: [dispatch] New draft on RTCWeb Requirements and API draft-je=
nnings-rtcweb-api=0A=0A> =0A> On Mar 16, 2011, at 3:12 PM, Lorenzo Minier=
o wrote:=0A> > =0A> > We implemented something like that for our system, =
also documented in a paper lately: basically a controller protocol that t=
unnels every other protocol on top of HTTP to bypass restrictive firewall=
s. Since it works, we were also thinking about a "lightweight" version of=
 such protocol to only convey RTP specifically for our web interface, con=
sidering RTP is the only protocol we couldn't wrap via JavaScript so far.=
 So I agree that such a TURN-like protocol would be a good idea for the W=
G.=0A> =0A> =0A> I've recently been considering the merits of a VPN that =
looks like MobileIP over HTTPS over Tor. It would let one run any kind of=
 communications traffic (albeit with odd time-domain distributions), whil=
e one would appear to be simply running HTTP traffic to various innocuous=
 websites. The problem, of course, is that traffic that is not Web surfin=
g has a very different time.size fingerprint, and could easily be detecte=
d. However, the approach would seem to work very well for letting people =
do actual Web traffic obscurely. =0A> =0A> If one took the Tor layer out =
of my idea-space, then one might get something very much like your approa=
ch. Can you share a link to your paper?=0A> =0A=0A=0AHi Dean,=0Ayou can f=
ind the paper here:=0A=0Ahttp://www.springerlink.com/content/610773726011=
1804/=0A=0Alet me know if you've problems getting the paper from there.=0A=
Our approach is less "generic" than the one you've devised, though, since=
 we had a specific use case in mind.=0A=0A=0AL.=0A=0A=0A=0A> =0A> --=0A> =
Dean=0A=0A--=0ALorenzo Miniero=0Ahttp://www.meetecho.com


From henry.sinnreich@gmail.com  Wed Mar 23 09:23:38 2011
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Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 11:25:07 -0500
From: Henry Sinnreich <henry.sinnreich@gmail.com>
To: Lorenzo Miniero <lorenzo@meetecho.com>
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Hi Lorenzo, Cullen,

> We implemented something like that for our system, also documented in a paper
> lately: basically a controller protocol that tunnels every other protocol on
> top of HTTP to bypass restrictive firewalls.

Having explained HTTP tunneling flavors in the paper and also shown
measurement results, besides a working product, should really make IMO your
approach or something similar to it an option for the RTC-Web media
solution. Such an option should also be reflected in the API part, on which
the draft-jennings-rtcweb-api is focused.

RT media over HTTP may be quite effective in some usage scenarios, such as
CDN with >100k HTPP proxies around the globe, collocated in 1,000s of
networks with plenty of bandwidth, smaller delay and arguably without all
the other SIP, etc. intermediaries found inside and between most service
provider networks.

I know profiles in standards are not desirable, but hindering innovations
such as yours and ignoring CDN and other Web application scenarios is even
less desirable. 
This is a challenge both the IETF and the W3C will hopefully manage.

Thanks for sharing,

Henry


On 3/16/11 3:12 PM, "Lorenzo Miniero" <lorenzo@meetecho.com> wrote:

> On Wed, 16 Mar 2011 13:54:39 -0500
> Henry Sinnreich <henry.sinnreich@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> Hi Cullen,
>> 
>> Section 3. Requirements says:
>> ... In addition, there is a strong interest to define a TURN-like protocol
>>    that looks like HTTP to intermediaries, so that media can be tunneled
>>    over HTTP. 
>> ...
>> 
>> This is very interesting and innovative.
>> Can you explain here a little bit?
>> 
>> Thanks, Henry
>> 
> 
> 
> We implemented something like that for our system, also documented in a paper
> lately: basically a controller protocol that tunnels every other protocol on
> top of HTTP to bypass restrictive firewalls. Since it works, we were also
> thinking about a "lightweight" version of such protocol to only convey RTP
> specifically for our web interface, considering RTP is the only protocol we
> couldn't wrap via JavaScript so far. So I agree that such a TURN-like protocol
> would be a good idea for the WG.
> 
> Of course, there would be limitations and issues because of this transport,
> but since firewalls are there to stay, and few of them like RTP appearing "out
> of the blue", that's something we probably need to live with.
> 
> L.
> 
> 
>> 
>> On 3/10/11 2:20 PM, "Cullen Jennings" <fluffy@cisco.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> I wrote up the start of a draft on requirements.
>>> 
>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jennings-rtcweb-api-00
>>> 
>>> I think the key thing for the key thing for IETF working is starting to
>>> think
>>> about the requirements and what on the on the wire protocols are that we
>>> want
>>> to select. I included some API definition because I found it helpful to be
>>> thinking about that in this draft but that would not be part of the IETF
>>> work.
>>> That would be work I think W3C should do. The draft also touches on the of
>>> the
>>> security issues for media and signaling originating from browsers.
>>> 
>>> Cullen 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> dispatch mailing list
>>> dispatch@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> dispatch mailing list
>> dispatch@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
> 




From gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com  Thu Mar 24 08:55:54 2011
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Subject: Re: [dispatch] DISPATCH Ad-HOC meetings about VIPR and RTCWeb at IETF 80
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Hi,

> Note the number of WG in RAI alone is going to ensure we have conflicts - I think I mention this every time dispatch HUMS on forming a new WG :-) 

we are not only creating new WGs. We are also closing some of them ;o)

We have already closed AVT and will close ENUM during the meeting in
Prague next week. SPEEMINT will also be closed shortly and we intend to
close a few more by the next IETF meeting.

Cheers,

Gonzalo

From lorenzo@meetecho.com  Thu Mar 24 09:55:30 2011
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Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 17:52:17 +0100
From: Lorenzo Miniero <lorenzo@meetecho.com>
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Subject: Re: [dispatch] New draft on RTCWeb Requirements and API draft-jennings-rtcweb-api
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Hi Henry,


On Wed, 23 Mar 2011 11:25:07 -0500
Henry Sinnreich <henry.sinnreich@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Lorenzo, Cullen,
> 
> > We implemented something like that for our system, also documented in a paper
> > lately: basically a controller protocol that tunnels every other protocol on
> > top of HTTP to bypass restrictive firewalls.
> 
> Having explained HTTP tunneling flavors in the paper and also shown
> measurement results, besides a working product, should really make IMO your
> approach or something similar to it an option for the RTC-Web media
> solution. Such an option should also be reflected in the API part, on which
> the draft-jennings-rtcweb-api is focused.
> 


I'd be glad to contribute to the definition of a related solution, should such a work be started within the IETF.

I'll also try and make available, hopefully before the meeting, a publicly reachable prototype version of our current approach for you all to play with, just to have some live experience to foster discussion.

L.


> RT media over HTTP may be quite effective in some usage scenarios, such as
> CDN with >100k HTPP proxies around the globe, collocated in 1,000s of
> networks with plenty of bandwidth, smaller delay and arguably without all
> the other SIP, etc. intermediaries found inside and between most service
> provider networks.
> 
> I know profiles in standards are not desirable, but hindering innovations
> such as yours and ignoring CDN and other Web application scenarios is even
> less desirable. 
> This is a challenge both the IETF and the W3C will hopefully manage.
> 
> Thanks for sharing,
> 
> Henry
> 
> 
> On 3/16/11 3:12 PM, "Lorenzo Miniero" <lorenzo@meetecho.com> wrote:
> 
> > On Wed, 16 Mar 2011 13:54:39 -0500
> > Henry Sinnreich <henry.sinnreich@gmail.com> wrote:
> > 
> >> Hi Cullen,
> >> 
> >> Section 3. Requirements says:
> >> ... In addition, there is a strong interest to define a TURN-like protocol
> >>    that looks like HTTP to intermediaries, so that media can be tunneled
> >>    over HTTP. 
> >> ...
> >> 
> >> This is very interesting and innovative.
> >> Can you explain here a little bit?
> >> 
> >> Thanks, Henry
> >> 
> > 
> > 
> > We implemented something like that for our system, also documented in a paper
> > lately: basically a controller protocol that tunnels every other protocol on
> > top of HTTP to bypass restrictive firewalls. Since it works, we were also
> > thinking about a "lightweight" version of such protocol to only convey RTP
> > specifically for our web interface, considering RTP is the only protocol we
> > couldn't wrap via JavaScript so far. So I agree that such a TURN-like protocol
> > would be a good idea for the WG.
> > 
> > Of course, there would be limitations and issues because of this transport,
> > but since firewalls are there to stay, and few of them like RTP appearing "out
> > of the blue", that's something we probably need to live with.
> > 
> > L.
> > 
> > 
> >> 
> >> On 3/10/11 2:20 PM, "Cullen Jennings" <fluffy@cisco.com> wrote:
> >> 
> >>> 
> >>> I wrote up the start of a draft on requirements.
> >>> 
> >>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jennings-rtcweb-api-00
> >>> 
> >>> I think the key thing for the key thing for IETF working is starting to
> >>> think
> >>> about the requirements and what on the on the wire protocols are that we
> >>> want
> >>> to select. I included some API definition because I found it helpful to be
> >>> thinking about that in this draft but that would not be part of the IETF
> >>> work.
> >>> That would be work I think W3C should do. The draft also touches on the of
> >>> the
> >>> security issues for media and signaling originating from browsers.
> >>> 
> >>> Cullen 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> dispatch mailing list
> >>> dispatch@ietf.org
> >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
> >> 
> >> 
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> dispatch mailing list
> >> dispatch@ietf.org
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
> > 
> 
> 
> 


-- 
Lorenzo Miniero, COB

Meetecho s.r.l.
Web Conferencing and Collaboration Tools
http://www.meetecho.com

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From: "Worley, Dale R (Dale)" <dworley@avaya.com>
To: Thierry Bessis <Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com>, "Parthasarathi R (partr)" <partr@cisco.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 15:54:59 -0400
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References: <4D755B9E.6030008@bell-labs.com>	<4D7566C1.40605@cisco.com> <4D756C47.1000509@bell-labs.com> <086e01cbdd4e$6b8188f0$42849ad0$@packetizer.com> <4D7668B9.1020105@alcatel-lucent.com> <004601cbddd2$15b11ab0$41135010$@packetizer.com> <4D77B831.7000404@alcatel-lucent.com> <026f01cbded9$be15f290$3a41d7b0$@packetizer.com> <4D791595.2010703@alcatel-lucent.com> <A11921905DA1564D9BCF64A6430A62390293A694@XMB-BGL-411.cisco.com> <4D7A485E.2080602@alcatel-lucent.com> <A11921905DA1564D9BCF64A6430A623904BE39CC@XMB-BGL-411.cisco.com> <4D80ED57.7030709@alcatel-lucent.com> <A11921905DA1564D9BCF64A6430A62390293A6AD@XMB-BGL-411.cisco.com>, <4D826CC5.9010502@alcatel-lucent.com>
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Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing
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________________________________________
From: dispatch-bounces@ietf.org [dispatch-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Th=
ierry Bessis [Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com]

TB> It seems to me that this comment just reinforces my point (I hope I und=
erstand well): We need to let the destination come up its own way with its =
percentage of resource left, because there are so many possible implementat=
ions that it would be cumbersome and restrictive to impose any algorithm. A=
lso just to be sure: The proposed weight is a percentage (a ratio): it has =
no unit. Part of the robustness and universality is derived from this chara=
cteristic.
________________________________________

I haven't done an analysis, but I strongly expect that the overall system b=
ehaves better if all systems report their available capacity
in the same amount of traffic ("number of calls") rather than percentage of=
 capacity that is unused.

The reason is that if two servers have significantly different capacity, sa=
y by a factor of 10, when both servers report 1% of capacity
free, one server will be able to accept 10 times as much traffic as the oth=
er.

Dale

From gonzalo.camarillo@ericsson.com  Thu Mar 24 08:44:28 2011
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Cc: "vpascual@acmepacket.com" <vpascual@acmepacket.com>, "sip-overload@ietf.org" <sip-overload@ietf.org>, "keith.drage@alcatel-lucent.com" <keith.drage@alcatel-lucent.com>, "HKaplan@acmepacket.com" <HKaplan@acmepacket.com>, "dispatch@ietf.org" <dispatch@ietf.org>, "Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com" <Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com>
Subject: Re: [dispatch] [sip-overload] Bar BOF request for SIP Load balancing & (media) overload handling
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Hi,

thanks for the feedback. We will address that issue in the next revision
of the draft ;o)

Jokes aside, one of the main points of the draft is that the term "bar
BOF" confuses many people (specially because it contains the word "BOF"
and people end up confusing bar BOFs with actual BOFs). So, we recommend
to call them "side meetings" instead.

Cheers,

Gonzalo

On 17/03/2011 2:38 PM, Paul E. Jones wrote:
> This is not entirely helpful.  It does not go into explaining what kind 
> or how much beer Partha is going to be required to buy everyone who 
> attends ;-)
> 
> On 3/16/2011 10:18 PM, Cullen Jennings wrote:
>> Just as FYI ... if you have not seen it, you might want to have a read of
>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-eggert-successful-bar-bof
>>
>>
>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 6:44 PM, Parthasarathi R (partr) wrote:
>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> There is lot of discussion about SIP load balancing and overload handling in Dispatch alias. I wish to have discussion about SIP Load balancing&  (media) overload handling at IETF-80 Prague. I guess that Bar BOF is the idle way to start the discussion about this topic to common understanding and identify the way to move forward. Please suggest me in case any other mechanism exists in IETF.
>>>
>>> I have included the folks who has shown the interest in this topic as part of SIP Load balancing&  overload handling, dispatch WG chairs, CCed to Dispatch and SoC WG alias. AFAIK, the couple of drafts are related to this problem:
>>>
>>> draft-bessis-dispatch-adaptive-load-balancing-00
>>> draft-partha-dispatch-sip-media-overload-control-00.txt
>>> draft-jones-sip-overload-sce-00
>>> draft-partha-dispatch-resource-availability-00
>>> draft-sparks-sipping-load-00
>>>
>>> Please let me about others interest and opinion to have Bar BOF for SIP Load balancing&  overload handling during IETF-80.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>> Partha
> _______________________________________________
> sip-overload mailing list
> sip-overload@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sip-overload
> 


From lorenzo@meetecho.com  Sat Mar 26 09:48:16 2011
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Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2011 17:45:04 +0100
From: Lorenzo Miniero <lorenzo@meetecho.com>
To: Henry Sinnreich <henry.sinnreich@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [dispatch] New draft on RTCWeb Requirements and API draft-jennings-rtcweb-api
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Dear all,

as anticipated, I've just made available a prototype version of our RTP-over-HTTP tunneling approach:

	http://143.225.229.136/WebLite/echotest.jsp

It is a very simple Echo Test: the page uses JavaScript to setup a server-originated SIP call to a URI associated with an RTP echo application. Then, a Java applet is started to take care of the the RTP tunneling and encoding/decoding process.

To play with it, just enable the "Enable RTP tunneling" checkbox and then click the button to launch the test. If everything goes fine, a new box should appear on the left with the remote audio and video streams: a voice prompt with a video logo will precede the actual echo feature. All the RTP packets will be tunneled over HTTP.

Before you start, nevertheless, please have a quick look at a few prerequisites and instructions here:

	http://ietf.conf.meetecho.com/index.php/Web_Client

for what concerns the applet-based Audio/Video functionality (last section in the page: our Web Client uses the same applet). In fact, applets can give a few problems at times (especially for multimedia-driven applications) in some configurations, and so checking a few things before delving in the demo may spare you from headache! :)

Let us know if and how it works. Of course please beware that this is just a very dumb prototype, so rough that it can give you the creeps if you just skim over it! :)
Nevertheless, the basic concepts are there, so it may be useful to foster some discussion on the matter. If you're interested in some more details, I'm already in Prague.

Lorenzo



On Thu, 24 Mar 2011 17:52:17 +0100
Lorenzo Miniero <lorenzo@meetecho.com> wrote:

> Hi Henry,
> 
> 
> On Wed, 23 Mar 2011 11:25:07 -0500
> Henry Sinnreich <henry.sinnreich@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > Hi Lorenzo, Cullen,
> > 
> > > We implemented something like that for our system, also documented in a paper
> > > lately: basically a controller protocol that tunnels every other protocol on
> > > top of HTTP to bypass restrictive firewalls.
> > 
> > Having explained HTTP tunneling flavors in the paper and also shown
> > measurement results, besides a working product, should really make IMO your
> > approach or something similar to it an option for the RTC-Web media
> > solution. Such an option should also be reflected in the API part, on which
> > the draft-jennings-rtcweb-api is focused.
> > 
> 
> 
> I'd be glad to contribute to the definition of a related solution, should such a work be started within the IETF.
> 
> I'll also try and make available, hopefully before the meeting, a publicly reachable prototype version of our current approach for you all to play with, just to have some live experience to foster discussion.
> 
> L.
> 
> 
> > RT media over HTTP may be quite effective in some usage scenarios, such as
> > CDN with >100k HTPP proxies around the globe, collocated in 1,000s of
> > networks with plenty of bandwidth, smaller delay and arguably without all
> > the other SIP, etc. intermediaries found inside and between most service
> > provider networks.
> > 
> > I know profiles in standards are not desirable, but hindering innovations
> > such as yours and ignoring CDN and other Web application scenarios is even
> > less desirable. 
> > This is a challenge both the IETF and the W3C will hopefully manage.
> > 
> > Thanks for sharing,
> > 
> > Henry
> > 
> > 
> > On 3/16/11 3:12 PM, "Lorenzo Miniero" <lorenzo@meetecho.com> wrote:
> > 
> > > On Wed, 16 Mar 2011 13:54:39 -0500
> > > Henry Sinnreich <henry.sinnreich@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > 
> > >> Hi Cullen,
> > >> 
> > >> Section 3. Requirements says:
> > >> ... In addition, there is a strong interest to define a TURN-like protocol
> > >>    that looks like HTTP to intermediaries, so that media can be tunneled
> > >>    over HTTP. 
> > >> ...
> > >> 
> > >> This is very interesting and innovative.
> > >> Can you explain here a little bit?
> > >> 
> > >> Thanks, Henry
> > >> 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > We implemented something like that for our system, also documented in a paper
> > > lately: basically a controller protocol that tunnels every other protocol on
> > > top of HTTP to bypass restrictive firewalls. Since it works, we were also
> > > thinking about a "lightweight" version of such protocol to only convey RTP
> > > specifically for our web interface, considering RTP is the only protocol we
> > > couldn't wrap via JavaScript so far. So I agree that such a TURN-like protocol
> > > would be a good idea for the WG.
> > > 
> > > Of course, there would be limitations and issues because of this transport,
> > > but since firewalls are there to stay, and few of them like RTP appearing "out
> > > of the blue", that's something we probably need to live with.
> > > 
> > > L.
> > > 
> > > 
> > >> 
> > >> On 3/10/11 2:20 PM, "Cullen Jennings" <fluffy@cisco.com> wrote:
> > >> 
> > >>> 
> > >>> I wrote up the start of a draft on requirements.
> > >>> 
> > >>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jennings-rtcweb-api-00
> > >>> 
> > >>> I think the key thing for the key thing for IETF working is starting to
> > >>> think
> > >>> about the requirements and what on the on the wire protocols are that we
> > >>> want
> > >>> to select. I included some API definition because I found it helpful to be
> > >>> thinking about that in this draft but that would not be part of the IETF
> > >>> work.
> > >>> That would be work I think W3C should do. The draft also touches on the of
> > >>> the
> > >>> security issues for media and signaling originating from browsers.
> > >>> 
> > >>> Cullen 
> > >>> 
> > >>> 
> > >>> 
> > >>> 
> > >>> _______________________________________________
> > >>> dispatch mailing list
> > >>> dispatch@ietf.org
> > >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> dispatch mailing list
> > >> dispatch@ietf.org
> > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Lorenzo Miniero, COB
> 
> Meetecho s.r.l.
> Web Conferencing and Collaboration Tools
> http://www.meetecho.com
> _______________________________________________
> dispatch mailing list
> dispatch@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch


-- 
Lorenzo Miniero, COB

Meetecho s.r.l.
Web Conferencing and Collaboration Tools
http://www.meetecho.com

From henry.sinnreich@gmail.com  Sun Mar 27 21:57:54 2011
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Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 06:59:22 +0200
From: Heinrich Sinnreich <henry.sinnreich@gmail.com>
To: Lorenzo Miniero <lorenzo@meetecho.com>
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Thanks for the demo yesterday, Sunday outside the welcome reception!
For those who may have missed it, the RTP-over-HTTP tunneling demo really
works, though some of us will try again, after flying home.

Thanks again,
Henry

On 3/26/11 6:45 PM, "Lorenzo Miniero" <lorenzo@meetecho.com> wrote:

> Dear all,
> 
> as anticipated, I've just made available a prototype version of our
> RTP-over-HTTP tunneling approach:
> 
> http://143.225.229.136/WebLite/echotest.jsp
> 
> It is a very simple Echo Test: the page uses JavaScript to setup a
> server-originated SIP call to a URI associated with an RTP echo application.
> Then, a Java applet is started to take care of the the RTP tunneling and
> encoding/decoding process.
> 
> To play with it, just enable the "Enable RTP tunneling" checkbox and then
> click the button to launch the test. If everything goes fine, a new box should
> appear on the left with the remote audio and video streams: a voice prompt
> with a video logo will precede the actual echo feature. All the RTP packets
> will be tunneled over HTTP.
> 
> Before you start, nevertheless, please have a quick look at a few
> prerequisites and instructions here:
> 
> http://ietf.conf.meetecho.com/index.php/Web_Client
> 
> for what concerns the applet-based Audio/Video functionality (last section in
> the page: our Web Client uses the same applet). In fact, applets can give a
> few problems at times (especially for multimedia-driven applications) in some
> configurations, and so checking a few things before delving in the demo may
> spare you from headache! :)
> 
> Let us know if and how it works. Of course please beware that this is just a
> very dumb prototype, so rough that it can give you the creeps if you just skim
> over it! :)
> Nevertheless, the basic concepts are there, so it may be useful to foster some
> discussion on the matter. If you're interested in some more details, I'm
> already in Prague.
> 
> Lorenzo
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, 24 Mar 2011 17:52:17 +0100
> Lorenzo Miniero <lorenzo@meetecho.com> wrote:
> 
>> Hi Henry,
>> 
>> 
>> On Wed, 23 Mar 2011 11:25:07 -0500
>> Henry Sinnreich <henry.sinnreich@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi Lorenzo, Cullen,
>>> 
>>>> We implemented something like that for our system, also documented in a
>>>> paper
>>>> lately: basically a controller protocol that tunnels every other protocol
>>>> on
>>>> top of HTTP to bypass restrictive firewalls.
>>> 
>>> Having explained HTTP tunneling flavors in the paper and also shown
>>> measurement results, besides a working product, should really make IMO your
>>> approach or something similar to it an option for the RTC-Web media
>>> solution. Such an option should also be reflected in the API part, on which
>>> the draft-jennings-rtcweb-api is focused.
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> I'd be glad to contribute to the definition of a related solution, should
>> such a work be started within the IETF.
>> 
>> I'll also try and make available, hopefully before the meeting, a publicly
>> reachable prototype version of our current approach for you all to play with,
>> just to have some live experience to foster discussion.
>> 
>> L.
>> 
>> 
>>> RT media over HTTP may be quite effective in some usage scenarios, such as
>>> CDN with >100k HTPP proxies around the globe, collocated in 1,000s of
>>> networks with plenty of bandwidth, smaller delay and arguably without all
>>> the other SIP, etc. intermediaries found inside and between most service
>>> provider networks.
>>> 
>>> I know profiles in standards are not desirable, but hindering innovations
>>> such as yours and ignoring CDN and other Web application scenarios is even
>>> less desirable.
>>> This is a challenge both the IETF and the W3C will hopefully manage.
>>> 
>>> Thanks for sharing,
>>> 
>>> Henry
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 3/16/11 3:12 PM, "Lorenzo Miniero" <lorenzo@meetecho.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> On Wed, 16 Mar 2011 13:54:39 -0500
>>>> Henry Sinnreich <henry.sinnreich@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Hi Cullen,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Section 3. Requirements says:
>>>>> ... In addition, there is a strong interest to define a TURN-like protocol
>>>>>    that looks like HTTP to intermediaries, so that media can be tunneled
>>>>>    over HTTP.
>>>>> ...
>>>>> 
>>>>> This is very interesting and innovative.
>>>>> Can you explain here a little bit?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thanks, Henry
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> We implemented something like that for our system, also documented in a
>>>> paper
>>>> lately: basically a controller protocol that tunnels every other protocol
>>>> on
>>>> top of HTTP to bypass restrictive firewalls. Since it works, we were also
>>>> thinking about a "lightweight" version of such protocol to only convey RTP
>>>> specifically for our web interface, considering RTP is the only protocol we
>>>> couldn't wrap via JavaScript so far. So I agree that such a TURN-like
>>>> protocol
>>>> would be a good idea for the WG.
>>>> 
>>>> Of course, there would be limitations and issues because of this transport,
>>>> but since firewalls are there to stay, and few of them like RTP appearing
>>>> "out
>>>> of the blue", that's something we probably need to live with.
>>>> 
>>>> L.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 3/10/11 2:20 PM, "Cullen Jennings" <fluffy@cisco.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I wrote up the start of a draft on requirements.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jennings-rtcweb-api-00
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I think the key thing for the key thing for IETF working is starting to
>>>>>> think
>>>>>> about the requirements and what on the on the wire protocols are that we
>>>>>> want
>>>>>> to select. I included some API definition because I found it helpful to
>>>>>> be
>>>>>> thinking about that in this draft but that would not be part of the IETF
>>>>>> work.
>>>>>> That would be work I think W3C should do. The draft also touches on the
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> security issues for media and signaling originating from browsers.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Cullen 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> dispatch mailing list
>>>>>> dispatch@ietf.org
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> dispatch mailing list
>>>>> dispatch@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Lorenzo Miniero, COB
>> 
>> Meetecho s.r.l.
>> Web Conferencing and Collaboration Tools
>> http://www.meetecho.com
>> _______________________________________________
>> dispatch mailing list
>> dispatch@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
> 



From dean.willis@softarmor.com  Mon Mar 28 00:31:50 2011
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References: <C9AF8913.1A395%henry.sinnreich@gmail.com> <20110324175217.71812238@lminiero-acer> <20110326174504.56061fab@lminiero-acer>
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

I suggest trying it from a pc tethered to an EDGE mobile modem.
On Mar 26, 2011 4:49 PM, "Lorenzo Miniero" <lorenzo@meetecho.com> wrote:
> Dear all,
>
> as anticipated, I've just made available a prototype version of our
RTP-over-HTTP tunneling approach:
>
> http://143.225.229.136/WebLite/echotest.jsp
>
> It is a very simple Echo Test: the page uses JavaScript to setup a
server-originated SIP call to a URI associated with an RTP echo application.
Then, a Java applet is started to take care of the the RTP tunneling and
encoding/decoding process.
>
> To play with it, just enable the "Enable RTP tunneling" checkbox and then
click the button to launch the test. If everything goes fine, a new box
should appear on the left with the remote audio and video streams: a voice
prompt with a video logo will precede the actual echo feature. All the RTP
packets will be tunneled over HTTP.
>
> Before you start, nevertheless, please have a quick look at a few
prerequisites and instructions here:
>
> http://ietf.conf.meetecho.com/index.php/Web_Client
>
> for what concerns the applet-based Audio/Video functionality (last section
in the page: our Web Client uses the same applet). In fact, applets can give
a few problems at times (especially for multimedia-driven applications) in
some configurations, and so checking a few things before delving in the demo
may spare you from headache! :)
>
> Let us know if and how it works. Of course please beware that this is just
a very dumb prototype, so rough that it can give you the creeps if you just
skim over it! :)
> Nevertheless, the basic concepts are there, so it may be useful to foster
some discussion on the matter. If you're interested in some more details,
I'm already in Prague.
>
> Lorenzo
>
>
>
> On Thu, 24 Mar 2011 17:52:17 +0100
> Lorenzo Miniero <lorenzo@meetecho.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Henry,
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 23 Mar 2011 11:25:07 -0500
>> Henry Sinnreich <henry.sinnreich@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Hi Lorenzo, Cullen,
>> >
>> > > We implemented something like that for our system, also documented in
a paper
>> > > lately: basically a controller protocol that tunnels every other
protocol on
>> > > top of HTTP to bypass restrictive firewalls.
>> >
>> > Having explained HTTP tunneling flavors in the paper and also shown
>> > measurement results, besides a working product, should really make IMO
your
>> > approach or something similar to it an option for the RTC-Web media
>> > solution. Such an option should also be reflected in the API part, on
which
>> > the draft-jennings-rtcweb-api is focused.
>> >
>>
>>
>> I'd be glad to contribute to the definition of a related solution, should
such a work be started within the IETF.
>>
>> I'll also try and make available, hopefully before the meeting, a
publicly reachable prototype version of our current approach for you all to
play with, just to have some live experience to foster discussion.
>>
>> L.
>>
>>
>> > RT media over HTTP may be quite effective in some usage scenarios, such
as
>> > CDN with >100k HTPP proxies around the globe, collocated in 1,000s of
>> > networks with plenty of bandwidth, smaller delay and arguably without
all
>> > the other SIP, etc. intermediaries found inside and between most
service
>> > provider networks.
>> >
>> > I know profiles in standards are not desirable, but hindering
innovations
>> > such as yours and ignoring CDN and other Web application scenarios is
even
>> > less desirable.
>> > This is a challenge both the IETF and the W3C will hopefully manage.
>> >
>> > Thanks for sharing,
>> >
>> > Henry
>> >
>> >
>> > On 3/16/11 3:12 PM, "Lorenzo Miniero" <lorenzo@meetecho.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > > On Wed, 16 Mar 2011 13:54:39 -0500
>> > > Henry Sinnreich <henry.sinnreich@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >
>> > >> Hi Cullen,
>> > >>
>> > >> Section 3. Requirements says:
>> > >> ... In addition, there is a strong interest to define a TURN-like
protocol
>> > >> that looks like HTTP to intermediaries, so that media can be
tunneled
>> > >> over HTTP.
>> > >> ...
>> > >>
>> > >> This is very interesting and innovative.
>> > >> Can you explain here a little bit?
>> > >>
>> > >> Thanks, Henry
>> > >>
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > We implemented something like that for our system, also documented in
a paper
>> > > lately: basically a controller protocol that tunnels every other
protocol on
>> > > top of HTTP to bypass restrictive firewalls. Since it works, we were
also
>> > > thinking about a "lightweight" version of such protocol to only
convey RTP
>> > > specifically for our web interface, considering RTP is the only
protocol we
>> > > couldn't wrap via JavaScript so far. So I agree that such a TURN-like
protocol
>> > > would be a good idea for the WG.
>> > >
>> > > Of course, there would be limitations and issues because of this
transport,
>> > > but since firewalls are there to stay, and few of them like RTP
appearing "out
>> > > of the blue", that's something we probably need to live with.
>> > >
>> > > L.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >>
>> > >> On 3/10/11 2:20 PM, "Cullen Jennings" <fluffy@cisco.com> wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >>>
>> > >>> I wrote up the start of a draft on requirements.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jennings-rtcweb-api-00
>> > >>>
>> > >>> I think the key thing for the key thing for IETF working is
starting to
>> > >>> think
>> > >>> about the requirements and what on the on the wire protocols are
that we
>> > >>> want
>> > >>> to select. I included some API definition because I found it
helpful to be
>> > >>> thinking about that in this draft but that would not be part of the
IETF
>> > >>> work.
>> > >>> That would be work I think W3C should do. The draft also touches on
the of
>> > >>> the
>> > >>> security issues for media and signaling originating from browsers.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Cullen
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>> _______________________________________________
>> > >>> dispatch mailing list
>> > >>> dispatch@ietf.org
>> > >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> _______________________________________________
>> > >> dispatch mailing list
>> > >> dispatch@ietf.org
>> > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> Lorenzo Miniero, COB
>>
>> Meetecho s.r.l.
>> Web Conferencing and Collaboration Tools
>> http://www.meetecho.com
>> _______________________________________________
>> dispatch mailing list
>> dispatch@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
>
>
> --
> Lorenzo Miniero, COB
>
> Meetecho s.r.l.
> Web Conferencing and Collaboration Tools
> http://www.meetecho.com
> _______________________________________________
> dispatch mailing list
> dispatch@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch

--000e0cd2bf9c88201a049f85f5ef
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<p>I suggest trying it from a pc tethered to an EDGE mobile modem.</p>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mar 26, 2011 4:49 PM, &quot;Lorenzo Miniero&q=
uot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lorenzo@meetecho.com">lorenzo@meetecho.com</a>&g=
t; wrote:<br type=3D"attribution">&gt; Dear all,<br>&gt; <br>&gt; as antici=
pated, I&#39;ve just made available a prototype version of our RTP-over-HTT=
P tunneling approach:<br>
&gt; <br>&gt; 	<a href=3D"http://143.225.229.136/WebLite/echotest.jsp">http=
://143.225.229.136/WebLite/echotest.jsp</a><br>&gt; <br>&gt; It is a very s=
imple Echo Test: the page uses JavaScript to setup a server-originated SIP =
call to a URI associated with an RTP echo application. Then, a Java applet =
is started to take care of the the RTP tunneling and encoding/decoding proc=
ess.<br>
&gt; <br>&gt; To play with it, just enable the &quot;Enable RTP tunneling&q=
uot; checkbox and then click the button to launch the test. If everything g=
oes fine, a new box should appear on the left with the remote audio and vid=
eo streams: a voice prompt with a video logo will precede the actual echo f=
eature. All the RTP packets will be tunneled over HTTP.<br>
&gt; <br>&gt; Before you start, nevertheless, please have a quick look at a=
 few prerequisites and instructions here:<br>&gt; <br>&gt; 	<a href=3D"http=
://ietf.conf.meetecho.com/index.php/Web_Client">http://ietf.conf.meetecho.c=
om/index.php/Web_Client</a><br>
&gt; <br>&gt; for what concerns the applet-based Audio/Video functionality =
(last section in the page: our Web Client uses the same applet). In fact, a=
pplets can give a few problems at times (especially for multimedia-driven a=
pplications) in some configurations, and so checking a few things before de=
lving in the demo may spare you from headache! :)<br>
&gt; <br>&gt; Let us know if and how it works. Of course please beware that=
 this is just a very dumb prototype, so rough that it can give you the cree=
ps if you just skim over it! :)<br>&gt; Nevertheless, the basic concepts ar=
e there, so it may be useful to foster some discussion on the matter. If yo=
u&#39;re interested in some more details, I&#39;m already in Prague.<br>
&gt; <br>&gt; Lorenzo<br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; On Thu, 24 Mar 201=
1 17:52:17 +0100<br>&gt; Lorenzo Miniero &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lorenzo@meet=
echo.com">lorenzo@meetecho.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>&gt; <br>&gt;&gt; Hi Henry=
,<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>&gt;&gt; <br>&gt;&gt; On Wed, 23 Mar 2011 11:25:07 -0500<br>&g=
t;&gt; Henry Sinnreich &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henry.sinnreich@gmail.com">hen=
ry.sinnreich@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>&gt;&gt; <br>&gt;&gt; &gt; Hi Lore=
nzo, Cullen,<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; <br>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; We implemented something like that for=
 our system, also documented in a paper<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; lately: basic=
ally a controller protocol that tunnels every other protocol on<br>&gt;&gt;=
 &gt; &gt; top of HTTP to bypass restrictive firewalls.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; <br>&gt;&gt; &gt; Having explained HTTP tunneling flavors in =
the paper and also shown<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; measurement results, besides a wo=
rking product, should really make IMO your<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; approach or som=
ething similar to it an option for the RTC-Web media<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; solution. Such an option should also be reflected in the API =
part, on which<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; the draft-jennings-rtcweb-api is focused.<b=
r>&gt;&gt; &gt; <br>&gt;&gt; <br>&gt;&gt; <br>&gt;&gt; I&#39;d be glad to c=
ontribute to the definition of a related solution, should such a work be st=
arted within the IETF.<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>&gt;&gt; I&#39;ll also try and make available, hopefully befor=
e the meeting, a publicly reachable prototype version of our current approa=
ch for you all to play with, just to have some live experience to foster di=
scussion.<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>&gt;&gt; L.<br>&gt;&gt; <br>&gt;&gt; <br>&gt;&gt; &gt; RT medi=
a over HTTP may be quite effective in some usage scenarios, such as<br>&gt;=
&gt; &gt; CDN with &gt;100k HTPP proxies around the globe, collocated in 1,=
000s of<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; networks with plenty of bandwidth, smaller delay and arguably=
 without all<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; the other SIP, etc. intermediaries found insi=
de and between most service<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; provider networks.<br>&gt;&gt;=
 &gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; I know profiles in standards are not desirable, but hindering=
 innovations<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; such as yours and ignoring CDN and other Web =
application scenarios is even<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; less desirable. <br>&gt;&gt;=
 &gt; This is a challenge both the IETF and the W3C will hopefully manage.<=
br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; <br>&gt;&gt; &gt; Thanks for sharing,<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; <br>&g=
t;&gt; &gt; Henry<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; <br>&gt;&gt; &gt; <br>&gt;&gt; &gt; On 3=
/16/11 3:12 PM, &quot;Lorenzo Miniero&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lorenzo@m=
eetecho.com">lorenzo@meetecho.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; <br>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; On Wed, 16 Mar 2011 13:54:39 -0500<br>=
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; Henry Sinnreich &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henry.sinnreich@gm=
ail.com">henry.sinnreich@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; <br=
>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; Hi Cullen,<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;&gt; &g=
t; &gt;&gt; Section 3. Requirements says:<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; ... In =
addition, there is a strong interest to define a TURN-like protocol<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;    that looks like HTTP to intermediaries, so that m=
edia can be tunneled<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;    over HTTP. <br>&gt;&gt; &=
gt; &gt;&gt; ...<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; This =
is very interesting and innovative.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; Can you explain here a little bit?<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; =
&gt;&gt; <br>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; Thanks, Henry<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;=
 <br>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; <br>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; <br>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; We im=
plemented something like that for our system, also documented in a paper<br=
>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; lately: basically a controller protocol that tunnels eve=
ry other protocol on<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; top of HTTP to bypass restrictiv=
e firewalls. Since it works, we were also<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; thinking ab=
out a &quot;lightweight&quot; version of such protocol to only convey RTP<b=
r>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; specifically for our web interface, considering RTP is t=
he only protocol we<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; couldn&#39;t wrap via JavaScript =
so far. So I agree that such a TURN-like protocol<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; wou=
ld be a good idea for the WG.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; <br>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; Of course, there would be limitat=
ions and issues because of this transport,<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; but since =
firewalls are there to stay, and few of them like RTP appearing &quot;out<b=
r>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; of the blue&quot;, that&#39;s something we probably need=
 to live with.<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; <br>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; L.<br>&gt;&gt; =
&gt; &gt; <br>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; <br>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;&gt; &g=
t; &gt;&gt; On 3/10/11 2:20 PM, &quot;Cullen Jennings&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:fluffy@cisco.com">fluffy@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; <br>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt=
;&gt;&gt; I wrote up the start of a draft on requirements.<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;=
 &gt;&gt;&gt; <br>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.o=
rg/html/draft-jennings-rtcweb-api-00">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jenn=
ings-rtcweb-api-00</a><br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; <br>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; I think the key t=
hing for the key thing for IETF working is starting to<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt=
;&gt;&gt; think<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; about the requirements and wh=
at on the on the wire protocols are that we<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; want<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; to select. I =
included some API definition because I found it helpful to be<br>&gt;&gt; &=
gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; thinking about that in this draft but that would not be pa=
rt of the IETF<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; work.<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; That would b=
e work I think W3C should do. The draft also touches on the of<br>&gt;&gt; =
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; the<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; security issues for med=
ia and signaling originating from browsers.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; <br>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Cullen <br>&gt;&g=
t; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; <br>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; <br>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&=
gt;&gt; <br>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; <br>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; _____=
__________________________________________<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; dispatch mailing list<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&=
gt; <a href=3D"mailto:dispatch@ietf.org">dispatch@ietf.org</a><br>&gt;&gt; =
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch=
">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch</a><br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; <br>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt=
; _______________________________________________<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;=
 dispatch mailing list<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:dispatch=
@ietf.org">dispatch@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dis=
patch">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch</a><br>&gt;&gt; &gt; =
&gt; <br>&gt;&gt; &gt; <br>&gt;&gt; &gt; <br>&gt;&gt; &gt; <br>&gt;&gt; <br=
>
&gt;&gt; <br>&gt;&gt; -- <br>&gt;&gt; Lorenzo Miniero, COB<br>&gt;&gt; <br>=
&gt;&gt; Meetecho s.r.l.<br>&gt;&gt; Web Conferencing and Collaboration Too=
ls<br>&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"http://www.meetecho.com">http://www.meetecho.com<=
/a><br>
&gt;&gt; _______________________________________________<br>&gt;&gt; dispat=
ch mailing list<br>&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:dispatch@ietf.org">dispatch@i=
etf.org</a><br>&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/di=
spatch">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch</a><br>
&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; -- <br>&gt; Lorenzo Miniero, COB<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Me=
etecho s.r.l.<br>&gt; Web Conferencing and Collaboration Tools<br>&gt; <a h=
ref=3D"http://www.meetecho.com">http://www.meetecho.com</a><br>&gt; _______=
________________________________________<br>
&gt; dispatch mailing list<br>&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:dispatch@ietf.org">dis=
patch@ietf.org</a><br>&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo=
/dispatch">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch</a><br></div>

--000e0cd2bf9c88201a049f85f5ef--

From lorenzo@meetecho.com  Mon Mar 28 05:06:52 2011
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Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 14:03:35 +0200
From: Lorenzo Miniero <lorenzo@meetecho.com>
To: Dean Willis <dean.willis@softarmor.com>
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Hi Dean,


On Mon, 28 Mar 2011 02:33:25 -0500
Dean Willis <dean.willis@softarmor.com> wrote:

> I suggest trying it from a pc tethered to an EDGE mobile modem.


Or with no network at all :)

Jokes apart, it's clear that the QoE can't benefit from such limited bandwidth/conditions, and that would be true for pure RTP as well. I can only say that we've used this and older versions of the tunnel on limited networks (home adsls, umts, etc.) for our purposes and it seemed fine, though I agree that every attempt at addressing this feature should take care of tackling such issues.

L.



> On Mar 26, 2011 4:49 PM, "Lorenzo Miniero" <lorenzo@meetecho.com> wrote:
> > Dear all,
> >
> > as anticipated, I've just made available a prototype version of our
> RTP-over-HTTP tunneling approach:
> >
> > http://143.225.229.136/WebLite/echotest.jsp
> >
> > It is a very simple Echo Test: the page uses JavaScript to setup a
> server-originated SIP call to a URI associated with an RTP echo application.
> Then, a Java applet is started to take care of the the RTP tunneling and
> encoding/decoding process.
> >
> > To play with it, just enable the "Enable RTP tunneling" checkbox and then
> click the button to launch the test. If everything goes fine, a new box
> should appear on the left with the remote audio and video streams: a voice
> prompt with a video logo will precede the actual echo feature. All the RTP
> packets will be tunneled over HTTP.
> >
> > Before you start, nevertheless, please have a quick look at a few
> prerequisites and instructions here:
> >
> > http://ietf.conf.meetecho.com/index.php/Web_Client
> >
> > for what concerns the applet-based Audio/Video functionality (last section
> in the page: our Web Client uses the same applet). In fact, applets can give
> a few problems at times (especially for multimedia-driven applications) in
> some configurations, and so checking a few things before delving in the demo
> may spare you from headache! :)
> >
> > Let us know if and how it works. Of course please beware that this is just
> a very dumb prototype, so rough that it can give you the creeps if you just
> skim over it! :)
> > Nevertheless, the basic concepts are there, so it may be useful to foster
> some discussion on the matter. If you're interested in some more details,
> I'm already in Prague.
> >
> > Lorenzo
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, 24 Mar 2011 17:52:17 +0100
> > Lorenzo Miniero <lorenzo@meetecho.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Henry,
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, 23 Mar 2011 11:25:07 -0500
> >> Henry Sinnreich <henry.sinnreich@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Hi Lorenzo, Cullen,
> >> >
> >> > > We implemented something like that for our system, also documented in
> a paper
> >> > > lately: basically a controller protocol that tunnels every other
> protocol on
> >> > > top of HTTP to bypass restrictive firewalls.
> >> >
> >> > Having explained HTTP tunneling flavors in the paper and also shown
> >> > measurement results, besides a working product, should really make IMO
> your
> >> > approach or something similar to it an option for the RTC-Web media
> >> > solution. Such an option should also be reflected in the API part, on
> which
> >> > the draft-jennings-rtcweb-api is focused.
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> I'd be glad to contribute to the definition of a related solution, should
> such a work be started within the IETF.
> >>
> >> I'll also try and make available, hopefully before the meeting, a
> publicly reachable prototype version of our current approach for you all to
> play with, just to have some live experience to foster discussion.
> >>
> >> L.
> >>
> >>
> >> > RT media over HTTP may be quite effective in some usage scenarios, such
> as
> >> > CDN with >100k HTPP proxies around the globe, collocated in 1,000s of
> >> > networks with plenty of bandwidth, smaller delay and arguably without
> all
> >> > the other SIP, etc. intermediaries found inside and between most
> service
> >> > provider networks.
> >> >
> >> > I know profiles in standards are not desirable, but hindering
> innovations
> >> > such as yours and ignoring CDN and other Web application scenarios is
> even
> >> > less desirable.
> >> > This is a challenge both the IETF and the W3C will hopefully manage.
> >> >
> >> > Thanks for sharing,
> >> >
> >> > Henry
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On 3/16/11 3:12 PM, "Lorenzo Miniero" <lorenzo@meetecho.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > On Wed, 16 Mar 2011 13:54:39 -0500
> >> > > Henry Sinnreich <henry.sinnreich@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > >> Hi Cullen,
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Section 3. Requirements says:
> >> > >> ... In addition, there is a strong interest to define a TURN-like
> protocol
> >> > >> that looks like HTTP to intermediaries, so that media can be
> tunneled
> >> > >> over HTTP.
> >> > >> ...
> >> > >>
> >> > >> This is very interesting and innovative.
> >> > >> Can you explain here a little bit?
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Thanks, Henry
> >> > >>
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > We implemented something like that for our system, also documented in
> a paper
> >> > > lately: basically a controller protocol that tunnels every other
> protocol on
> >> > > top of HTTP to bypass restrictive firewalls. Since it works, we were
> also
> >> > > thinking about a "lightweight" version of such protocol to only
> convey RTP
> >> > > specifically for our web interface, considering RTP is the only
> protocol we
> >> > > couldn't wrap via JavaScript so far. So I agree that such a TURN-like
> protocol
> >> > > would be a good idea for the WG.
> >> > >
> >> > > Of course, there would be limitations and issues because of this
> transport,
> >> > > but since firewalls are there to stay, and few of them like RTP
> appearing "out
> >> > > of the blue", that's something we probably need to live with.
> >> > >
> >> > > L.
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >>
> >> > >> On 3/10/11 2:20 PM, "Cullen Jennings" <fluffy@cisco.com> wrote:
> >> > >>
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> I wrote up the start of a draft on requirements.
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jennings-rtcweb-api-00
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> I think the key thing for the key thing for IETF working is
> starting to
> >> > >>> think
> >> > >>> about the requirements and what on the on the wire protocols are
> that we
> >> > >>> want
> >> > >>> to select. I included some API definition because I found it
> helpful to be
> >> > >>> thinking about that in this draft but that would not be part of the
> IETF
> >> > >>> work.
> >> > >>> That would be work I think W3C should do. The draft also touches on
> the of
> >> > >>> the
> >> > >>> security issues for media and signaling originating from browsers.
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> Cullen
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> _______________________________________________
> >> > >>> dispatch mailing list
> >> > >>> dispatch@ietf.org
> >> > >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >> _______________________________________________
> >> > >> dispatch mailing list
> >> > >> dispatch@ietf.org
> >> > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Lorenzo Miniero, COB
> >>
> >> Meetecho s.r.l.
> >> Web Conferencing and Collaboration Tools
> >> http://www.meetecho.com
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> dispatch mailing list
> >> dispatch@ietf.org
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
> >
> >
> > --
> > Lorenzo Miniero, COB
> >
> > Meetecho s.r.l.
> > Web Conferencing and Collaboration Tools
> > http://www.meetecho.com
> > _______________________________________________
> > dispatch mailing list
> > dispatch@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch


-- 
Lorenzo Miniero, COB

Meetecho s.r.l.
Web Conferencing and Collaboration Tools
http://www.meetecho.com

From dean.willis@softarmor.com  Mon Mar 28 05:12:53 2011
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References: <C9AF8913.1A395%henry.sinnreich@gmail.com> <20110324175217.71812238@lminiero-acer> <20110326174504.56061fab@lminiero-acer> <AANLkTi=KaN8=67B-fcd91_wkbOiFq8uMr0t-uktyCAuN@mail.gmail.com> <20110328140335.4ff34ddb@lminiero-acer>
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 07:14:28 -0500
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From: Dean Willis <dean.willis@softarmor.com>
To: Lorenzo Miniero <lorenzo@meetecho.com>
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Cc: DISPATCH list <dispatch@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [dispatch] New draft on RTCWeb Requirements and API draft-jennings-rtcweb-api
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It is not the bandwidth that worries me. It is packet loss and resulting tcp
retransmit jitter.
On Mar 28, 2011 2:08 PM, "Lorenzo Miniero" <lorenzo@meetecho.com> wrote:
> Hi Dean,
>
>
> On Mon, 28 Mar 2011 02:33:25 -0500
> Dean Willis <dean.willis@softarmor.com> wrote:
>
>> I suggest trying it from a pc tethered to an EDGE mobile modem.
>
>
> Or with no network at all :)
>
> Jokes apart, it's clear that the QoE can't benefit from such limited
bandwidth/conditions, and that would be true for pure RTP as well. I can
only say that we've used this and older versions of the tunnel on limited
networks (home adsls, umts, etc.) for our purposes and it seemed fine,
though I agree that every attempt at addressing this feature should take
care of tackling such issues.
>
> L.
>
>
>
>> On Mar 26, 2011 4:49 PM, "Lorenzo Miniero" <lorenzo@meetecho.com> wrote:
>> > Dear all,
>> >
>> > as anticipated, I've just made available a prototype version of our
>> RTP-over-HTTP tunneling approach:
>> >
>> > http://143.225.229.136/WebLite/echotest.jsp
>> >
>> > It is a very simple Echo Test: the page uses JavaScript to setup a
>> server-originated SIP call to a URI associated with an RTP echo
application.
>> Then, a Java applet is started to take care of the the RTP tunneling and
>> encoding/decoding process.
>> >
>> > To play with it, just enable the "Enable RTP tunneling" checkbox and
then
>> click the button to launch the test. If everything goes fine, a new box
>> should appear on the left with the remote audio and video streams: a
voice
>> prompt with a video logo will precede the actual echo feature. All the
RTP
>> packets will be tunneled over HTTP.
>> >
>> > Before you start, nevertheless, please have a quick look at a few
>> prerequisites and instructions here:
>> >
>> > http://ietf.conf.meetecho.com/index.php/Web_Client
>> >
>> > for what concerns the applet-based Audio/Video functionality (last
section
>> in the page: our Web Client uses the same applet). In fact, applets can
give
>> a few problems at times (especially for multimedia-driven applications)
in
>> some configurations, and so checking a few things before delving in the
demo
>> may spare you from headache! :)
>> >
>> > Let us know if and how it works. Of course please beware that this is
just
>> a very dumb prototype, so rough that it can give you the creeps if you
just
>> skim over it! :)
>> > Nevertheless, the basic concepts are there, so it may be useful to
foster
>> some discussion on the matter. If you're interested in some more details,
>> I'm already in Prague.
>> >
>> > Lorenzo
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Thu, 24 Mar 2011 17:52:17 +0100
>> > Lorenzo Miniero <lorenzo@meetecho.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Hi Henry,
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Wed, 23 Mar 2011 11:25:07 -0500
>> >> Henry Sinnreich <henry.sinnreich@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > Hi Lorenzo, Cullen,
>> >> >
>> >> > > We implemented something like that for our system, also documented
in
>> a paper
>> >> > > lately: basically a controller protocol that tunnels every other
>> protocol on
>> >> > > top of HTTP to bypass restrictive firewalls.
>> >> >
>> >> > Having explained HTTP tunneling flavors in the paper and also shown
>> >> > measurement results, besides a working product, should really make
IMO
>> your
>> >> > approach or something similar to it an option for the RTC-Web media
>> >> > solution. Such an option should also be reflected in the API part,
on
>> which
>> >> > the draft-jennings-rtcweb-api is focused.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I'd be glad to contribute to the definition of a related solution,
should
>> such a work be started within the IETF.
>> >>
>> >> I'll also try and make available, hopefully before the meeting, a
>> publicly reachable prototype version of our current approach for you all
to
>> play with, just to have some live experience to foster discussion.
>> >>
>> >> L.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > RT media over HTTP may be quite effective in some usage scenarios,
such
>> as
>> >> > CDN with >100k HTPP proxies around the globe, collocated in 1,000s
of
>> >> > networks with plenty of bandwidth, smaller delay and arguably
without
>> all
>> >> > the other SIP, etc. intermediaries found inside and between most
>> service
>> >> > provider networks.
>> >> >
>> >> > I know profiles in standards are not desirable, but hindering
>> innovations
>> >> > such as yours and ignoring CDN and other Web application scenarios
is
>> even
>> >> > less desirable.
>> >> > This is a challenge both the IETF and the W3C will hopefully manage.
>> >> >
>> >> > Thanks for sharing,
>> >> >
>> >> > Henry
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > On 3/16/11 3:12 PM, "Lorenzo Miniero" <lorenzo@meetecho.com> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > > On Wed, 16 Mar 2011 13:54:39 -0500
>> >> > > Henry Sinnreich <henry.sinnreich@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> > >
>> >> > >> Hi Cullen,
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> Section 3. Requirements says:
>> >> > >> ... In addition, there is a strong interest to define a TURN-like
>> protocol
>> >> > >> that looks like HTTP to intermediaries, so that media can be
>> tunneled
>> >> > >> over HTTP.
>> >> > >> ...
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> This is very interesting and innovative.
>> >> > >> Can you explain here a little bit?
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> Thanks, Henry
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > > We implemented something like that for our system, also documented
in
>> a paper
>> >> > > lately: basically a controller protocol that tunnels every other
>> protocol on
>> >> > > top of HTTP to bypass restrictive firewalls. Since it works, we
were
>> also
>> >> > > thinking about a "lightweight" version of such protocol to only
>> convey RTP
>> >> > > specifically for our web interface, considering RTP is the only
>> protocol we
>> >> > > couldn't wrap via JavaScript so far. So I agree that such a
TURN-like
>> protocol
>> >> > > would be a good idea for the WG.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Of course, there would be limitations and issues because of this
>> transport,
>> >> > > but since firewalls are there to stay, and few of them like RTP
>> appearing "out
>> >> > > of the blue", that's something we probably need to live with.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > L.
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> On 3/10/11 2:20 PM, "Cullen Jennings" <fluffy@cisco.com> wrote:
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >>>
>> >> > >>> I wrote up the start of a draft on requirements.
>> >> > >>>
>> >> > >>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jennings-rtcweb-api-00
>> >> > >>>
>> >> > >>> I think the key thing for the key thing for IETF working is
>> starting to
>> >> > >>> think
>> >> > >>> about the requirements and what on the on the wire protocols are
>> that we
>> >> > >>> want
>> >> > >>> to select. I included some API definition because I found it
>> helpful to be
>> >> > >>> thinking about that in this draft but that would not be part of
the
>> IETF
>> >> > >>> work.
>> >> > >>> That would be work I think W3C should do. The draft also touches
on
>> the of
>> >> > >>> the
>> >> > >>> security issues for media and signaling originating from
browsers.
>> >> > >>>
>> >> > >>> Cullen
>> >> > >>>
>> >> > >>>
>> >> > >>>
>> >> > >>>
>> >> > >>> _______________________________________________
>> >> > >>> dispatch mailing list
>> >> > >>> dispatch@ietf.org
>> >> > >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> _______________________________________________
>> >> > >> dispatch mailing list
>> >> > >> dispatch@ietf.org
>> >> > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
>> >> > >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Lorenzo Miniero, COB
>> >>
>> >> Meetecho s.r.l.
>> >> Web Conferencing and Collaboration Tools
>> >> http://www.meetecho.com
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> dispatch mailing list
>> >> dispatch@ietf.org
>> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Lorenzo Miniero, COB
>> >
>> > Meetecho s.r.l.
>> > Web Conferencing and Collaboration Tools
>> > http://www.meetecho.com
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > dispatch mailing list
>> > dispatch@ietf.org
>> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
>
>
> --
> Lorenzo Miniero, COB
>
> Meetecho s.r.l.
> Web Conferencing and Collaboration Tools
> http://www.meetecho.com

--000e0cd5ccbaa6b270049f89e2c5
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<p>It is not the bandwidth that worries me. It is packet loss and resulting=
 tcp retransmit jitter.</p>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mar 28, 2011 2:08 PM, &quot;Lorenzo Miniero&q=
uot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lorenzo@meetecho.com">lorenzo@meetecho.com</a>&g=
t; wrote:<br type=3D"attribution">&gt; Hi Dean,<br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; O=
n Mon, 28 Mar 2011 02:33:25 -0500<br>
&gt; Dean Willis &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dean.willis@softarmor.com">dean.will=
is@softarmor.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>&gt; <br>&gt;&gt; I suggest trying it fr=
om a pc tethered to an EDGE mobile modem.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; Or with=
 no network at all :)<br>
&gt; <br>&gt; Jokes apart, it&#39;s clear that the QoE can&#39;t benefit fr=
om such limited bandwidth/conditions, and that would be true for pure RTP a=
s well. I can only say that we&#39;ve used this and older versions of the t=
unnel on limited networks (home adsls, umts, etc.) for our purposes and it =
seemed fine, though I agree that every attempt at addressing this feature s=
hould take care of tackling such issues.<br>
&gt; <br>&gt; L.<br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt;&gt; On Mar 26, 2011 4:4=
9 PM, &quot;Lorenzo Miniero&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lorenzo@meetecho.co=
m">lorenzo@meetecho.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; Dear all,<br>&gt;&g=
t; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; as anticipated, I&#39;ve just made available a prototype vers=
ion of our<br>&gt;&gt; RTP-over-HTTP tunneling approach:<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;<b=
r>&gt;&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"http://143.225.229.136/WebLite/echotest.jsp">htt=
p://143.225.229.136/WebLite/echotest.jsp</a><br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; It is a very simple Echo Test: the page uses=
 JavaScript to setup a<br>&gt;&gt; server-originated SIP call to a URI asso=
ciated with an RTP echo application.<br>&gt;&gt; Then, a Java applet is sta=
rted to take care of the the RTP tunneling and<br>
&gt;&gt; encoding/decoding process.<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; To pl=
ay with it, just enable the &quot;Enable RTP tunneling&quot; checkbox and t=
hen<br>&gt;&gt; click the button to launch the test. If everything goes fin=
e, a new box<br>
&gt;&gt; should appear on the left with the remote audio and video streams:=
 a voice<br>&gt;&gt; prompt with a video logo will precede the actual echo =
feature. All the RTP<br>&gt;&gt; packets will be tunneled over HTTP.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; Before you start, nevertheless, please have =
a quick look at a few<br>&gt;&gt; prerequisites and instructions here:<br>&=
gt;&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"http://ietf.conf.meetecho.com/inde=
x.php/Web_Client">http://ietf.conf.meetecho.com/index.php/Web_Client</a><br=
>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; for what concerns the applet-based Audio/Vid=
eo functionality (last section<br>&gt;&gt; in the page: our Web Client uses=
 the same applet). In fact, applets can give<br>&gt;&gt; a few problems at =
times (especially for multimedia-driven applications) in<br>
&gt;&gt; some configurations, and so checking a few things before delving i=
n the demo<br>&gt;&gt; may spare you from headache! :)<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>=
&gt;&gt; &gt; Let us know if and how it works. Of course please beware that=
 this is just<br>
&gt;&gt; a very dumb prototype, so rough that it can give you the creeps if=
 you just<br>&gt;&gt; skim over it! :)<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; Nevertheless, the b=
asic concepts are there, so it may be useful to foster<br>&gt;&gt; some dis=
cussion on the matter. If you&#39;re interested in some more details,<br>
&gt;&gt; I&#39;m already in Prague.<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; Loren=
zo<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; On T=
hu, 24 Mar 2011 17:52:17 +0100<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; Lorenzo Miniero &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:lorenzo@meetecho.com">lorenzo@meetecho.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; Hi Henry,<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&g=
t; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; On Wed, 23 Mar 2011 11:25:07 -0500<br>&gt;=
&gt; &gt;&gt; Henry Sinnreich &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henry.sinnreich@gmail.c=
om">henry.sinnreich@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; Hi Lorenzo, Cullen,<br>&gt;&gt;=
 &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; We implemented something like=
 that for our system, also documented in<br>&gt;&gt; a paper<br>&gt;&gt; &g=
t;&gt; &gt; &gt; lately: basically a controller protocol that tunnels every=
 other<br>
&gt;&gt; protocol on<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; top of HTTP to bypass r=
estrictive firewalls.<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; H=
aving explained HTTP tunneling flavors in the paper and also shown<br>&gt;&=
gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; measurement results, besides a working product, should re=
ally make IMO<br>
&gt;&gt; your<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; approach or something similar to it=
 an option for the RTC-Web media<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; solution. Such a=
n option should also be reflected in the API part, on<br>&gt;&gt; which<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; the draft-jennings-rtcweb-api is focused.<br>&gt;&gt=
; &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&=
gt; I&#39;d be glad to contribute to the definition of a related solution, =
should<br>
&gt;&gt; such a work be started within the IETF.<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&g=
t;&gt; &gt;&gt; I&#39;ll also try and make available, hopefully before the =
meeting, a<br>&gt;&gt; publicly reachable prototype version of our current =
approach for you all to<br>
&gt;&gt; play with, just to have some live experience to foster discussion.=
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; L.<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&=
gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; RT media over HTTP may be quite effe=
ctive in some usage scenarios, such<br>
&gt;&gt; as<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; CDN with &gt;100k HTPP proxies around=
 the globe, collocated in 1,000s of<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; networks with=
 plenty of bandwidth, smaller delay and arguably without<br>&gt;&gt; all<br=
>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; the other SIP, etc. intermediaries found inside and =
between most<br>&gt;&gt; service<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; provider network=
s.<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; I know profiles in s=
tandards are not desirable, but hindering<br>
&gt;&gt; innovations<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; such as yours and ignoring C=
DN and other Web application scenarios is<br>&gt;&gt; even<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;=
&gt; &gt; less desirable.<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; This is a challenge bot=
h the IETF and the W3C will hopefully manage.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; Thanks for sharing,<br>&gt=
;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; Henry<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &g=
t;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; On 3/16/11 3:12 PM, =
&quot;Lorenzo Miniero&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lorenzo@meetecho.com">lor=
enzo@meetecho.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; On Wed, 16 Mar 2011 1=
3:54:39 -0500<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; Henry Sinnreich &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:henry.sinnreich@gmail.com">henry.sinnreich@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:=
<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; Hi Cullen,<b=
r>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; Sectio=
n 3. Requirements says:<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; ... In addition,=
 there is a strong interest to define a TURN-like<br>
&gt;&gt; protocol<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; that looks like HTTP t=
o intermediaries, so that media can be<br>&gt;&gt; tunneled<br>&gt;&gt; &gt=
;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; over HTTP.<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; ...<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; This is =
very interesting and innovative.<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; Can you=
 explain here a little bit?<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; =
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; Thanks, Henry<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt; =
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; We implemented something =
like that for our system, also documented in<br>&gt;&gt; a paper<br>&gt;&gt=
; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; lately: basically a controller protocol that tunnels e=
very other<br>
&gt;&gt; protocol on<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; top of HTTP to bypass r=
estrictive firewalls. Since it works, we were<br>&gt;&gt; also<br>&gt;&gt; =
&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; thinking about a &quot;lightweight&quot; version of such=
 protocol to only<br>
&gt;&gt; convey RTP<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; specifically for our web=
 interface, considering RTP is the only<br>&gt;&gt; protocol we<br>&gt;&gt;=
 &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; couldn&#39;t wrap via JavaScript so far. So I agree tha=
t such a TURN-like<br>
&gt;&gt; protocol<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; would be a good idea for t=
he WG.<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; Of cou=
rse, there would be limitations and issues because of this<br>&gt;&gt; tran=
sport,<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; but since firewalls are there to stay, and few =
of them like RTP<br>&gt;&gt; appearing &quot;out<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; =
&gt; of the blue&quot;, that&#39;s something we probably need to live with.=
<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; L.<br>&gt;&gt; &=
gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; =
&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; On 3/10/11 2:20 PM, &quot;Culle=
n Jennings&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fluffy@cisco.com">fluffy@cisco.com</=
a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&=
gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; I wrote up the start of a draft on requi=
rements.<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &=
gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jennings-rtcweb-api=
-00">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jennings-rtcweb-api-00</a><br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; =
I think the key thing for the key thing for IETF working is<br>&gt;&gt; sta=
rting to<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; think<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; =
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; about the requirements and what on the on the wire protoc=
ols are<br>
&gt;&gt; that we<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; want<br>&gt;&gt; &g=
t;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; to select. I included some API definition because =
I found it<br>&gt;&gt; helpful to be<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;=
 thinking about that in this draft but that would not be part of the<br>
&gt;&gt; IETF<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; work.<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;=
&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; That would be work I think W3C should do. The draft =
also touches on<br>&gt;&gt; the of<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; t=
he<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; security issues for media and signaling=
 originating from browsers.<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&=
gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Cullen<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt=
;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<=
br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&g=
t; _______________________________________________<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt=
; &gt;&gt;&gt; dispatch mailing list<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:dispatch@ietf.org">di=
spatch@ietf.org</a><br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https=
://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/lis=
tinfo/dispatch</a><br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&=
gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; _______________________________________________<=
br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; dispatch mailing list<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&g=
t; &gt; &gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:dispatch@ietf.org">dispatch@ietf.org</a>=
<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/lis=
tinfo/dispatch">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch</a><br>&gt;&=
gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;<=
br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt=
; &gt;&gt; --<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; Lorenzo Miniero, COB<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt=
;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; Meetecho s.r.l.<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; Web Conferencin=
g and Collaboration Tools<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; <a href=3D"http://www.meetecho.com">http://www.meetecho.c=
om</a><br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; _______________________________________________=
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; dispatch mailing list<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; <a href=3D=
"mailto:dispatch@ietf.org">dispatch@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch=
">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch</a><br>&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>&g=
t;&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; --<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; Lorenzo Miniero, COB<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; Meetecho s.r.l.<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; Web Confere=
ncing and Collaboration Tools<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"http://www.meetec=
ho.com">http://www.meetecho.com</a><br>&gt;&gt; &gt; ______________________=
_________________________<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; dispatch mailing list<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:disp=
atch@ietf.org">dispatch@ietf.org</a><br>&gt;&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"https://ww=
w.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo=
/dispatch</a><br>
&gt; <br>&gt; <br>&gt; -- <br>&gt; Lorenzo Miniero, COB<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Me=
etecho s.r.l.<br>&gt; Web Conferencing and Collaboration Tools<br>&gt; <a h=
ref=3D"http://www.meetecho.com">http://www.meetecho.com</a><br></div>

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From spromano@unina.it  Mon Mar 28 05:27:10 2011
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To: Dean Willis <dean.willis@softarmor.com>
References: <C9AF8913.1A395%henry.sinnreich@gmail.com>	<20110324175217.71812238@lminiero-acer>	<20110326174504.56061fab@lminiero-acer>	<AANLkTi=KaN8=67B-fcd91_wkbOiFq8uMr0t-uktyCAuN@mail.gmail.com>	<20110328140335.4ff34ddb@lminiero-acer> <AANLkTi=o1=7d9p5gA_82SFq-N16NuKqn74YA3+e4Dt6L@mail.gmail.com>
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Cc: DISPATCH list <dispatch@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [dispatch] New draft on RTCWeb Requirements and API	draft-jennings-rtcweb-api
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Hi Dean,

we made a number of tests with an "off-the-shelf" ADSL connection (both 
in an un-congested and in a congested network). Jitter was between 80 
and 100 msec in the former case; in the latter case (congested network) 
it was much more variable, with an average of around 105 msec and peaks 
between 60 and 160 msec (which clearly show a dependence on TCP 
congestion control mechanisms).

Simon

In the former case (no congestion in the network), jitter

Il 28/03/2011 14:14, Dean Willis ha scritto:
>
> It is not the bandwidth that worries me. It is packet loss and 
> resulting tcp retransmit jitter.
>
> On Mar 28, 2011 2:08 PM, "Lorenzo Miniero" <lorenzo@meetecho.com 
> <mailto:lorenzo@meetecho.com>> wrote:
> > Hi Dean,
> >
> >
> > On Mon, 28 Mar 2011 02:33:25 -0500
> > Dean Willis <dean.willis@softarmor.com 
> <mailto:dean.willis@softarmor.com>> wrote:
> >
> >> I suggest trying it from a pc tethered to an EDGE mobile modem.
> >
> >
> > Or with no network at all :)
> >
> > Jokes apart, it's clear that the QoE can't benefit from such limited 
> bandwidth/conditions, and that would be true for pure RTP as well. I 
> can only say that we've used this and older versions of the tunnel on 
> limited networks (home adsls, umts, etc.) for our purposes and it 
> seemed fine, though I agree that every attempt at addressing this 
> feature should take care of tackling such issues.
> >
> > L.
> >
> >
> >
> >> On Mar 26, 2011 4:49 PM, "Lorenzo Miniero" <lorenzo@meetecho.com 
> <mailto:lorenzo@meetecho.com>> wrote:
> >> > Dear all,
> >> >
> >> > as anticipated, I've just made available a prototype version of our
> >> RTP-over-HTTP tunneling approach:
> >> >
> >> > http://143.225.229.136/WebLite/echotest.jsp
> >> >
> >> > It is a very simple Echo Test: the page uses JavaScript to setup a
> >> server-originated SIP call to a URI associated with an RTP echo 
> application.
> >> Then, a Java applet is started to take care of the the RTP 
> tunneling and
> >> encoding/decoding process.
> >> >
> >> > To play with it, just enable the "Enable RTP tunneling" checkbox 
> and then
> >> click the button to launch the test. If everything goes fine, a new box
> >> should appear on the left with the remote audio and video streams: 
> a voice
> >> prompt with a video logo will precede the actual echo feature. All 
> the RTP
> >> packets will be tunneled over HTTP.
> >> >
> >> > Before you start, nevertheless, please have a quick look at a few
> >> prerequisites and instructions here:
> >> >
> >> > http://ietf.conf.meetecho.com/index.php/Web_Client
> >> >
> >> > for what concerns the applet-based Audio/Video functionality 
> (last section
> >> in the page: our Web Client uses the same applet). In fact, applets 
> can give
> >> a few problems at times (especially for multimedia-driven 
> applications) in
> >> some configurations, and so checking a few things before delving in 
> the demo
> >> may spare you from headache! :)
> >> >
> >> > Let us know if and how it works. Of course please beware that 
> this is just
> >> a very dumb prototype, so rough that it can give you the creeps if 
> you just
> >> skim over it! :)
> >> > Nevertheless, the basic concepts are there, so it may be useful 
> to foster
> >> some discussion on the matter. If you're interested in some more 
> details,
> >> I'm already in Prague.
> >> >
> >> > Lorenzo
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Thu, 24 Mar 2011 17:52:17 +0100
> >> > Lorenzo Miniero <lorenzo@meetecho.com 
> <mailto:lorenzo@meetecho.com>> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Hi Henry,
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> On Wed, 23 Mar 2011 11:25:07 -0500
> >> >> Henry Sinnreich <henry.sinnreich@gmail.com 
> <mailto:henry.sinnreich@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> > Hi Lorenzo, Cullen,
> >> >> >
> >> >> > > We implemented something like that for our system, also 
> documented in
> >> a paper
> >> >> > > lately: basically a controller protocol that tunnels every other
> >> protocol on
> >> >> > > top of HTTP to bypass restrictive firewalls.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Having explained HTTP tunneling flavors in the paper and also 
> shown
> >> >> > measurement results, besides a working product, should really 
> make IMO
> >> your
> >> >> > approach or something similar to it an option for the RTC-Web 
> media
> >> >> > solution. Such an option should also be reflected in the API 
> part, on
> >> which
> >> >> > the draft-jennings-rtcweb-api is focused.
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> I'd be glad to contribute to the definition of a related 
> solution, should
> >> such a work be started within the IETF.
> >> >>
> >> >> I'll also try and make available, hopefully before the meeting, a
> >> publicly reachable prototype version of our current approach for 
> you all to
> >> play with, just to have some live experience to foster discussion.
> >> >>
> >> >> L.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> > RT media over HTTP may be quite effective in some usage 
> scenarios, such
> >> as
> >> >> > CDN with >100k HTPP proxies around the globe, collocated in 
> 1,000s of
> >> >> > networks with plenty of bandwidth, smaller delay and arguably 
> without
> >> all
> >> >> > the other SIP, etc. intermediaries found inside and between most
> >> service
> >> >> > provider networks.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I know profiles in standards are not desirable, but hindering
> >> innovations
> >> >> > such as yours and ignoring CDN and other Web application 
> scenarios is
> >> even
> >> >> > less desirable.
> >> >> > This is a challenge both the IETF and the W3C will hopefully 
> manage.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Thanks for sharing,
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Henry
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > On 3/16/11 3:12 PM, "Lorenzo Miniero" <lorenzo@meetecho.com 
> <mailto:lorenzo@meetecho.com>> wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > > On Wed, 16 Mar 2011 13:54:39 -0500
> >> >> > > Henry Sinnreich <henry.sinnreich@gmail.com 
> <mailto:henry.sinnreich@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >> Hi Cullen,
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >> Section 3. Requirements says:
> >> >> > >> ... In addition, there is a strong interest to define a 
> TURN-like
> >> protocol
> >> >> > >> that looks like HTTP to intermediaries, so that media can be
> >> tunneled
> >> >> > >> over HTTP.
> >> >> > >> ...
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >> This is very interesting and innovative.
> >> >> > >> Can you explain here a little bit?
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >> Thanks, Henry
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > We implemented something like that for our system, also 
> documented in
> >> a paper
> >> >> > > lately: basically a controller protocol that tunnels every other
> >> protocol on
> >> >> > > top of HTTP to bypass restrictive firewalls. Since it works, 
> we were
> >> also
> >> >> > > thinking about a "lightweight" version of such protocol to only
> >> convey RTP
> >> >> > > specifically for our web interface, considering RTP is the only
> >> protocol we
> >> >> > > couldn't wrap via JavaScript so far. So I agree that such a 
> TURN-like
> >> protocol
> >> >> > > would be a good idea for the WG.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > Of course, there would be limitations and issues because of this
> >> transport,
> >> >> > > but since firewalls are there to stay, and few of them like RTP
> >> appearing "out
> >> >> > > of the blue", that's something we probably need to live with.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > L.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >> On 3/10/11 2:20 PM, "Cullen Jennings" <fluffy@cisco.com 
> <mailto:fluffy@cisco.com>> wrote:
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >>>
> >> >> > >>> I wrote up the start of a draft on requirements.
> >> >> > >>>
> >> >> > >>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jennings-rtcweb-api-00
> >> >> > >>>
> >> >> > >>> I think the key thing for the key thing for IETF working is
> >> starting to
> >> >> > >>> think
> >> >> > >>> about the requirements and what on the on the wire 
> protocols are
> >> that we
> >> >> > >>> want
> >> >> > >>> to select. I included some API definition because I found it
> >> helpful to be
> >> >> > >>> thinking about that in this draft but that would not be 
> part of the
> >> IETF
> >> >> > >>> work.
> >> >> > >>> That would be work I think W3C should do. The draft also 
> touches on
> >> the of
> >> >> > >>> the
> >> >> > >>> security issues for media and signaling originating from 
> browsers.
> >> >> > >>>
> >> >> > >>> Cullen
> >> >> > >>>
> >> >> > >>>
> >> >> > >>>
> >> >> > >>>
> >> >> > >>> _______________________________________________
> >> >> > >>> dispatch mailing list
> >> >> > >>> dispatch@ietf.org <mailto:dispatch@ietf.org>
> >> >> > >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >> _______________________________________________
> >> >> > >> dispatch mailing list
> >> >> > >> dispatch@ietf.org <mailto:dispatch@ietf.org>
> >> >> > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
> >> >> > >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> --
> >> >> Lorenzo Miniero, COB
> >> >>
> >> >> Meetecho s.r.l.
> >> >> Web Conferencing and Collaboration Tools
> >> >> http://www.meetecho.com
> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >> dispatch mailing list
> >> >> dispatch@ietf.org <mailto:dispatch@ietf.org>
> >> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Lorenzo Miniero, COB
> >> >
> >> > Meetecho s.r.l.
> >> > Web Conferencing and Collaboration Tools
> >> > http://www.meetecho.com
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > dispatch mailing list
> >> > dispatch@ietf.org <mailto:dispatch@ietf.org>
> >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
> >
> >
> > --
> > Lorenzo Miniero, COB
> >
> > Meetecho s.r.l.
> > Web Conferencing and Collaboration Tools
> > http://www.meetecho.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> dispatch mailing list
> dispatch@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch

-- 
                             _\\|//_
                             ( O-O )
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~o00~~(_)~~00o~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                     Simon Pietro Romano
               Universita' di Napoli Federico II
                  Computer Science Department
         Phone: +39 081 7683823 -- Fax: +39 081 7684219
                 e-mail: spromano@unina.it
           http://www.comics.unina.it/simonpietro.romano

     <<Molti mi dicono che lo scoraggiamento è l'alibi degli
    idioti. Ci rifletto un istante; e mi scoraggio>>. Magritte.
                          oooO
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~(   )~~ Oooo~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                           \ (    (   )
                            \_)    ) /
                                  (_/



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    Hi Dean,<br>
    <br>
    we made a number of tests with an "off-the-shelf" ADSL connection
    (both in an un-congested and in a congested network). Jitter was
    between 80 and 100 msec in the former case; in the latter case
    (congested network) it was much more variable, with an average of
    around 105 msec and peaks between 60 and 160 msec (which clearly
    show a dependence on TCP congestion control mechanisms). <br>
    <br>
    Simon<br>
    <br>
    In the former case (no congestion in the network), jitter <br>
    <br>
    Il 28/03/2011 14:14, Dean Willis ha scritto:
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:AANLkTi=o1=7d9p5gA_82SFq-N16NuKqn74YA3+e4Dt6L@mail.gmail.com"
      type="cite">
      <p>It is not the bandwidth that worries me. It is packet loss and
        resulting tcp retransmit jitter.</p>
      <div class="gmail_quote">On Mar 28, 2011 2:08 PM, "Lorenzo
        Miniero" &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
          href="mailto:lorenzo@meetecho.com">lorenzo@meetecho.com</a>&gt;
        wrote:<br type="attribution">
        &gt; Hi Dean,<br>
        &gt; <br>
        &gt; <br>
        &gt; On Mon, 28 Mar 2011 02:33:25 -0500<br>
        &gt; Dean Willis &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
          href="mailto:dean.willis@softarmor.com">dean.willis@softarmor.com</a>&gt;
        wrote:<br>
        &gt; <br>
        &gt;&gt; I suggest trying it from a pc tethered to an EDGE
        mobile modem.<br>
        &gt; <br>
        &gt; <br>
        &gt; Or with no network at all :)<br>
        &gt; <br>
        &gt; Jokes apart, it's clear that the QoE can't benefit from
        such limited bandwidth/conditions, and that would be true for
        pure RTP as well. I can only say that we've used this and older
        versions of the tunnel on limited networks (home adsls, umts,
        etc.) for our purposes and it seemed fine, though I agree that
        every attempt at addressing this feature should take care of
        tackling such issues.<br>
        &gt; <br>
        &gt; L.<br>
        &gt; <br>
        &gt; <br>
        &gt; <br>
        &gt;&gt; On Mar 26, 2011 4:49 PM, "Lorenzo Miniero" &lt;<a
          moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:lorenzo@meetecho.com">lorenzo@meetecho.com</a>&gt;
        wrote:<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt; Dear all,<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt; as anticipated, I've just made available a
        prototype version of our<br>
        &gt;&gt; RTP-over-HTTP tunneling approach:<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt; <a moz-do-not-send="true"
          href="http://143.225.229.136/WebLite/echotest.jsp">http://143.225.229.136/WebLite/echotest.jsp</a><br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt; It is a very simple Echo Test: the page uses
        JavaScript to setup a<br>
        &gt;&gt; server-originated SIP call to a URI associated with an
        RTP echo application.<br>
        &gt;&gt; Then, a Java applet is started to take care of the the
        RTP tunneling and<br>
        &gt;&gt; encoding/decoding process.<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt; To play with it, just enable the "Enable RTP
        tunneling" checkbox and then<br>
        &gt;&gt; click the button to launch the test. If everything goes
        fine, a new box<br>
        &gt;&gt; should appear on the left with the remote audio and
        video streams: a voice<br>
        &gt;&gt; prompt with a video logo will precede the actual echo
        feature. All the RTP<br>
        &gt;&gt; packets will be tunneled over HTTP.<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt; Before you start, nevertheless, please have a
        quick look at a few<br>
        &gt;&gt; prerequisites and instructions here:<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt; <a moz-do-not-send="true"
          href="http://ietf.conf.meetecho.com/index.php/Web_Client">http://ietf.conf.meetecho.com/index.php/Web_Client</a><br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt; for what concerns the applet-based Audio/Video
        functionality (last section<br>
        &gt;&gt; in the page: our Web Client uses the same applet). In
        fact, applets can give<br>
        &gt;&gt; a few problems at times (especially for
        multimedia-driven applications) in<br>
        &gt;&gt; some configurations, and so checking a few things
        before delving in the demo<br>
        &gt;&gt; may spare you from headache! :)<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt; Let us know if and how it works. Of course please
        beware that this is just<br>
        &gt;&gt; a very dumb prototype, so rough that it can give you
        the creeps if you just<br>
        &gt;&gt; skim over it! :)<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt; Nevertheless, the basic concepts are there, so it
        may be useful to foster<br>
        &gt;&gt; some discussion on the matter. If you're interested in
        some more details,<br>
        &gt;&gt; I'm already in Prague.<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt; Lorenzo<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt; On Thu, 24 Mar 2011 17:52:17 +0100<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt; Lorenzo Miniero &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
          href="mailto:lorenzo@meetecho.com">lorenzo@meetecho.com</a>&gt;
        wrote:<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; Hi Henry,<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; On Wed, 23 Mar 2011 11:25:07 -0500<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; Henry Sinnreich &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
          href="mailto:henry.sinnreich@gmail.com">henry.sinnreich@gmail.com</a>&gt;
        wrote:<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; Hi Lorenzo, Cullen,<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; We implemented something like that
        for our system, also documented in<br>
        &gt;&gt; a paper<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; lately: basically a controller
        protocol that tunnels every other<br>
        &gt;&gt; protocol on<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; top of HTTP to bypass restrictive
        firewalls.<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; Having explained HTTP tunneling flavors
        in the paper and also shown<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; measurement results, besides a working
        product, should really make IMO<br>
        &gt;&gt; your<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; approach or something similar to it an
        option for the RTC-Web media<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; solution. Such an option should also be
        reflected in the API part, on<br>
        &gt;&gt; which<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; the draft-jennings-rtcweb-api is focused.<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; I'd be glad to contribute to the definition of
        a related solution, should<br>
        &gt;&gt; such a work be started within the IETF.<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; I'll also try and make available, hopefully
        before the meeting, a<br>
        &gt;&gt; publicly reachable prototype version of our current
        approach for you all to<br>
        &gt;&gt; play with, just to have some live experience to foster
        discussion.<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; L.<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; RT media over HTTP may be quite effective
        in some usage scenarios, such<br>
        &gt;&gt; as<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; CDN with &gt;100k HTPP proxies around the
        globe, collocated in 1,000s of<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; networks with plenty of bandwidth,
        smaller delay and arguably without<br>
        &gt;&gt; all<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; the other SIP, etc. intermediaries found
        inside and between most<br>
        &gt;&gt; service<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; provider networks.<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; I know profiles in standards are not
        desirable, but hindering<br>
        &gt;&gt; innovations<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; such as yours and ignoring CDN and other
        Web application scenarios is<br>
        &gt;&gt; even<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; less desirable.<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; This is a challenge both the IETF and the
        W3C will hopefully manage.<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; Thanks for sharing,<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; Henry<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; On 3/16/11 3:12 PM, "Lorenzo Miniero"
        &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:lorenzo@meetecho.com">lorenzo@meetecho.com</a>&gt;
        wrote:<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; On Wed, 16 Mar 2011 13:54:39 -0500<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; Henry Sinnreich &lt;<a
          moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:henry.sinnreich@gmail.com">henry.sinnreich@gmail.com</a>&gt;
        wrote:<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; Hi Cullen,<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; Section 3. Requirements says:<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; ... In addition, there is a
        strong interest to define a TURN-like<br>
        &gt;&gt; protocol<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; that looks like HTTP to
        intermediaries, so that media can be<br>
        &gt;&gt; tunneled<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; over HTTP.<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; ...<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; This is very interesting and
        innovative.<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; Can you explain here a little
        bit?<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; Thanks, Henry<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; We implemented something like that
        for our system, also documented in<br>
        &gt;&gt; a paper<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; lately: basically a controller
        protocol that tunnels every other<br>
        &gt;&gt; protocol on<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; top of HTTP to bypass restrictive
        firewalls. Since it works, we were<br>
        &gt;&gt; also<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; thinking about a "lightweight"
        version of such protocol to only<br>
        &gt;&gt; convey RTP<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; specifically for our web interface,
        considering RTP is the only<br>
        &gt;&gt; protocol we<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; couldn't wrap via JavaScript so far.
        So I agree that such a TURN-like<br>
        &gt;&gt; protocol<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; would be a good idea for the WG.<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; Of course, there would be
        limitations and issues because of this<br>
        &gt;&gt; transport,<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; but since firewalls are there to
        stay, and few of them like RTP<br>
        &gt;&gt; appearing "out<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; of the blue", that's something we
        probably need to live with.<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; L.<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; On 3/10/11 2:20 PM, "Cullen
        Jennings" &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
          href="mailto:fluffy@cisco.com">fluffy@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; I wrote up the start of a
        draft on requirements.<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; <a moz-do-not-send="true"
          href="http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jennings-rtcweb-api-00">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jennings-rtcweb-api-00</a><br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; I think the key thing for
        the key thing for IETF working is<br>
        &gt;&gt; starting to<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; think<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; about the requirements and
        what on the on the wire protocols are<br>
        &gt;&gt; that we<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; want<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; to select. I included some
        API definition because I found it<br>
        &gt;&gt; helpful to be<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; thinking about that in this
        draft but that would not be part of the<br>
        &gt;&gt; IETF<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; work.<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; That would be work I think
        W3C should do. The draft also touches on<br>
        &gt;&gt; the of<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; the<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; security issues for media
        and signaling originating from browsers.<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Cullen<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;
        _______________________________________________<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; dispatch mailing list<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; <a moz-do-not-send="true"
          href="mailto:dispatch@ietf.org">dispatch@ietf.org</a><br>
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          href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch</a><br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;
        _______________________________________________<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; dispatch mailing list<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; <a moz-do-not-send="true"
          href="mailto:dispatch@ietf.org">dispatch@ietf.org</a><br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; <a moz-do-not-send="true"
          href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch</a><br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; --<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; Lorenzo Miniero, COB<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; Meetecho s.r.l.<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; Web Conferencing and Collaboration Tools<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; <a moz-do-not-send="true"
          href="http://www.meetecho.com">http://www.meetecho.com</a><br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;
        _______________________________________________<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; dispatch mailing list<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; <a moz-do-not-send="true"
          href="mailto:dispatch@ietf.org">dispatch@ietf.org</a><br>
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          href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch</a><br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt; --<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt; Lorenzo Miniero, COB<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt; Meetecho s.r.l.<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt; Web Conferencing and Collaboration Tools<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt; <a moz-do-not-send="true"
          href="http://www.meetecho.com">http://www.meetecho.com</a><br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt; _______________________________________________<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt; dispatch mailing list<br>
        &gt;&gt; &gt; <a moz-do-not-send="true"
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          href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch</a><br>
        &gt; <br>
        &gt; <br>
        &gt; -- <br>
        &gt; Lorenzo Miniero, COB<br>
        &gt; <br>
        &gt; Meetecho s.r.l.<br>
        &gt; Web Conferencing and Collaboration Tools<br>
        &gt; <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.meetecho.com">http://www.meetecho.com</a><br>
      </div>
      <pre wrap="">
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</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
                            _\\|//_
                            ( O-O )
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~o00~~(_)~~00o~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                    Simon Pietro Romano
              Universita' di Napoli Federico II
                 Computer Science Department 
        Phone: +39 081 7683823 -- Fax: +39 081 7684219
                e-mail: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:spromano@unina.it">spromano@unina.it</a>
          <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.comics.unina.it/simonpietro.romano">http://www.comics.unina.it/simonpietro.romano</a>

    &lt;&lt;Molti mi dicono che lo scoraggiamento &egrave; l'alibi degli 
   idioti. Ci rifletto un istante; e mi scoraggio&gt;&gt;. Magritte.
                         oooO
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~(   )~~ Oooo~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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References: <C9AF8913.1A395%henry.sinnreich@gmail.com> <20110324175217.71812238@lminiero-acer> <20110326174504.56061fab@lminiero-acer> <AANLkTi=KaN8=67B-fcd91_wkbOiFq8uMr0t-uktyCAuN@mail.gmail.com> <20110328140335.4ff34ddb@lminiero-acer> <AANLkTi=o1=7d9p5gA_82SFq-N16NuKqn74YA3+e4Dt6L@mail.gmail.com> <4D907EF3.9040807@unina.it>
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 09:49:32 -0500
Message-ID: <AANLkTikJCS7n7M7wKRNMCCNSFLaaMwTW=s5vi-=ZrVLK@mail.gmail.com>
From: Dean Willis <dean.willis@softarmor.com>
To: Simon Pietro Romano <spromano@unina.it>
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Cc: DISPATCH list <dispatch@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [dispatch] New draft on RTCWeb Requirements and API draft-jennings-rtcweb-api
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What was the packet loss rate? Were they randomly distributed single-packet
losses or contiguos burst losses? RTP/UDP with simple CODECs is surprisingl=
y
useful at 1% losses with burst losses up to 3 sequential packets.
On Mar 28, 2011 2:28 PM, "Simon Pietro Romano" <spromano@unina.it> wrote:
> Hi Dean,
>
> we made a number of tests with an "off-the-shelf" ADSL connection (both
> in an un-congested and in a congested network). Jitter was between 80
> and 100 msec in the former case; in the latter case (congested network)
> it was much more variable, with an average of around 105 msec and peaks
> between 60 and 160 msec (which clearly show a dependence on TCP
> congestion control mechanisms).
>
> Simon
>
> In the former case (no congestion in the network), jitter
>
> Il 28/03/2011 14:14, Dean Willis ha scritto:
>>
>> It is not the bandwidth that worries me. It is packet loss and
>> resulting tcp retransmit jitter.
>>
>> On Mar 28, 2011 2:08 PM, "Lorenzo Miniero" <lorenzo@meetecho.com
>> <mailto:lorenzo@meetecho.com>> wrote:
>> > Hi Dean,
>> >
>> >
>> > On Mon, 28 Mar 2011 02:33:25 -0500
>> > Dean Willis <dean.willis@softarmor.com
>> <mailto:dean.willis@softarmor.com>> wrote:
>> >
>> >> I suggest trying it from a pc tethered to an EDGE mobile modem.
>> >
>> >
>> > Or with no network at all :)
>> >
>> > Jokes apart, it's clear that the QoE can't benefit from such limited
>> bandwidth/conditions, and that would be true for pure RTP as well. I
>> can only say that we've used this and older versions of the tunnel on
>> limited networks (home adsls, umts, etc.) for our purposes and it
>> seemed fine, though I agree that every attempt at addressing this
>> feature should take care of tackling such issues.
>> >
>> > L.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >> On Mar 26, 2011 4:49 PM, "Lorenzo Miniero" <lorenzo@meetecho.com
>> <mailto:lorenzo@meetecho.com>> wrote:
>> >> > Dear all,
>> >> >
>> >> > as anticipated, I've just made available a prototype version of our
>> >> RTP-over-HTTP tunneling approach:
>> >> >
>> >> > http://143.225.229.136/WebLite/echotest.jsp
>> >> >
>> >> > It is a very simple Echo Test: the page uses JavaScript to setup a
>> >> server-originated SIP call to a URI associated with an RTP echo
>> application.
>> >> Then, a Java applet is started to take care of the the RTP
>> tunneling and
>> >> encoding/decoding process.
>> >> >
>> >> > To play with it, just enable the "Enable RTP tunneling" checkbox
>> and then
>> >> click the button to launch the test. If everything goes fine, a new
box
>> >> should appear on the left with the remote audio and video streams:
>> a voice
>> >> prompt with a video logo will precede the actual echo feature. All
>> the RTP
>> >> packets will be tunneled over HTTP.
>> >> >
>> >> > Before you start, nevertheless, please have a quick look at a few
>> >> prerequisites and instructions here:
>> >> >
>> >> > http://ietf.conf.meetecho.com/index.php/Web_Client
>> >> >
>> >> > for what concerns the applet-based Audio/Video functionality
>> (last section
>> >> in the page: our Web Client uses the same applet). In fact, applets
>> can give
>> >> a few problems at times (especially for multimedia-driven
>> applications) in
>> >> some configurations, and so checking a few things before delving in
>> the demo
>> >> may spare you from headache! :)
>> >> >
>> >> > Let us know if and how it works. Of course please beware that
>> this is just
>> >> a very dumb prototype, so rough that it can give you the creeps if
>> you just
>> >> skim over it! :)
>> >> > Nevertheless, the basic concepts are there, so it may be useful
>> to foster
>> >> some discussion on the matter. If you're interested in some more
>> details,
>> >> I'm already in Prague.
>> >> >
>> >> > Lorenzo
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > On Thu, 24 Mar 2011 17:52:17 +0100
>> >> > Lorenzo Miniero <lorenzo@meetecho.com
>> <mailto:lorenzo@meetecho.com>> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> Hi Henry,
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Wed, 23 Mar 2011 11:25:07 -0500
>> >> >> Henry Sinnreich <henry.sinnreich@gmail.com
>> <mailto:henry.sinnreich@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > Hi Lorenzo, Cullen,
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > > We implemented something like that for our system, also
>> documented in
>> >> a paper
>> >> >> > > lately: basically a controller protocol that tunnels every
other
>> >> protocol on
>> >> >> > > top of HTTP to bypass restrictive firewalls.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Having explained HTTP tunneling flavors in the paper and also
>> shown
>> >> >> > measurement results, besides a working product, should really
>> make IMO
>> >> your
>> >> >> > approach or something similar to it an option for the RTC-Web
>> media
>> >> >> > solution. Such an option should also be reflected in the API
>> part, on
>> >> which
>> >> >> > the draft-jennings-rtcweb-api is focused.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I'd be glad to contribute to the definition of a related
>> solution, should
>> >> such a work be started within the IETF.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I'll also try and make available, hopefully before the meeting, a
>> >> publicly reachable prototype version of our current approach for
>> you all to
>> >> play with, just to have some live experience to foster discussion.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> L.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > RT media over HTTP may be quite effective in some usage
>> scenarios, such
>> >> as
>> >> >> > CDN with >100k HTPP proxies around the globe, collocated in
>> 1,000s of
>> >> >> > networks with plenty of bandwidth, smaller delay and arguably
>> without
>> >> all
>> >> >> > the other SIP, etc. intermediaries found inside and between most
>> >> service
>> >> >> > provider networks.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > I know profiles in standards are not desirable, but hindering
>> >> innovations
>> >> >> > such as yours and ignoring CDN and other Web application
>> scenarios is
>> >> even
>> >> >> > less desirable.
>> >> >> > This is a challenge both the IETF and the W3C will hopefully
>> manage.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Thanks for sharing,
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Henry
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > On 3/16/11 3:12 PM, "Lorenzo Miniero" <lorenzo@meetecho.com
>> <mailto:lorenzo@meetecho.com>> wrote:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > > On Wed, 16 Mar 2011 13:54:39 -0500
>> >> >> > > Henry Sinnreich <henry.sinnreich@gmail.com
>> <mailto:henry.sinnreich@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > >> Hi Cullen,
>> >> >> > >>
>> >> >> > >> Section 3. Requirements says:
>> >> >> > >> ... In addition, there is a strong interest to define a
>> TURN-like
>> >> protocol
>> >> >> > >> that looks like HTTP to intermediaries, so that media can be
>> >> tunneled
>> >> >> > >> over HTTP.
>> >> >> > >> ...
>> >> >> > >>
>> >> >> > >> This is very interesting and innovative.
>> >> >> > >> Can you explain here a little bit?
>> >> >> > >>
>> >> >> > >> Thanks, Henry
>> >> >> > >>
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > > We implemented something like that for our system, also
>> documented in
>> >> a paper
>> >> >> > > lately: basically a controller protocol that tunnels every
other
>> >> protocol on
>> >> >> > > top of HTTP to bypass restrictive firewalls. Since it works,
>> we were
>> >> also
>> >> >> > > thinking about a "lightweight" version of such protocol to onl=
y
>> >> convey RTP
>> >> >> > > specifically for our web interface, considering RTP is the onl=
y
>> >> protocol we
>> >> >> > > couldn't wrap via JavaScript so far. So I agree that such a
>> TURN-like
>> >> protocol
>> >> >> > > would be a good idea for the WG.
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > > Of course, there would be limitations and issues because of
this
>> >> transport,
>> >> >> > > but since firewalls are there to stay, and few of them like RT=
P
>> >> appearing "out
>> >> >> > > of the blue", that's something we probably need to live with.
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > > L.
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > >>
>> >> >> > >> On 3/10/11 2:20 PM, "Cullen Jennings" <fluffy@cisco.com
>> <mailto:fluffy@cisco.com>> wrote:
>> >> >> > >>
>> >> >> > >>>
>> >> >> > >>> I wrote up the start of a draft on requirements.
>> >> >> > >>>
>> >> >> > >>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jennings-rtcweb-api-00
>> >> >> > >>>
>> >> >> > >>> I think the key thing for the key thing for IETF working is
>> >> starting to
>> >> >> > >>> think
>> >> >> > >>> about the requirements and what on the on the wire
>> protocols are
>> >> that we
>> >> >> > >>> want
>> >> >> > >>> to select. I included some API definition because I found it
>> >> helpful to be
>> >> >> > >>> thinking about that in this draft but that would not be
>> part of the
>> >> IETF
>> >> >> > >>> work.
>> >> >> > >>> That would be work I think W3C should do. The draft also
>> touches on
>> >> the of
>> >> >> > >>> the
>> >> >> > >>> security issues for media and signaling originating from
>> browsers.
>> >> >> > >>>
>> >> >> > >>> Cullen
>> >> >> > >>>
>> >> >> > >>>
>> >> >> > >>>
>> >> >> > >>>
>> >> >> > >>> _______________________________________________
>> >> >> > >>> dispatch mailing list
>> >> >> > >>> dispatch@ietf.org <mailto:dispatch@ietf.org>
>> >> >> > >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
>> >> >> > >>
>> >> >> > >>
>> >> >> > >> _______________________________________________
>> >> >> > >> dispatch mailing list
>> >> >> > >> dispatch@ietf.org <mailto:dispatch@ietf.org>
>> >> >> > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> --
>> >> >> Lorenzo Miniero, COB
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Meetecho s.r.l.
>> >> >> Web Conferencing and Collaboration Tools
>> >> >> http://www.meetecho.com
>> >> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> >> dispatch mailing list
>> >> >> dispatch@ietf.org <mailto:dispatch@ietf.org>
>> >> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > --
>> >> > Lorenzo Miniero, COB
>> >> >
>> >> > Meetecho s.r.l.
>> >> > Web Conferencing and Collaboration Tools
>> >> > http://www.meetecho.com
>> >> > _______________________________________________
>> >> > dispatch mailing list
>> >> > dispatch@ietf.org <mailto:dispatch@ietf.org>
>> >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Lorenzo Miniero, COB
>> >
>> > Meetecho s.r.l.
>> > Web Conferencing and Collaboration Tools
>> > http://www.meetecho.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> dispatch mailing list
>> dispatch@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
>
> --
> _\\|//_
> ( O-O )
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~o00~~(_)~~00o~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Simon Pietro Romano
> Universita' di Napoli Federico II
> Computer Science Department
> Phone: +39 081 7683823 -- Fax: +39 081 7684219
> e-mail: spromano@unina.it
> http://www.comics.unina.it/simonpietro.romano
>
> <<Molti mi dicono che lo scoraggiamento =E8 l'alibi degli
> idioti. Ci rifletto un istante; e mi scoraggio>>. Magritte.
> oooO
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~( )~~ Oooo~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> \ ( ( )
> \_) ) /
> (_/
>
>

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<p>What was the packet loss rate? Were they randomly distributed single-pac=
ket losses or contiguos burst losses? RTP/UDP with simple CODECs is surpris=
ingly useful at 1% losses with burst losses up to 3 sequential packets.</p>

<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mar 28, 2011 2:28 PM, &quot;Simon Pietro Roma=
no&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spromano@unina.it">spromano@unina.it</a>&gt;=
 wrote:<br type=3D"attribution">&gt; Hi Dean,<br>&gt; <br>&gt; we made a nu=
mber of tests with an &quot;off-the-shelf&quot; ADSL connection (both <br>
&gt; in an un-congested and in a congested network). Jitter was between 80 =
<br>&gt; and 100 msec in the former case; in the latter case (congested net=
work) <br>&gt; it was much more variable, with an average of around 105 mse=
c and peaks <br>
&gt; between 60 and 160 msec (which clearly show a dependence on TCP <br>&g=
t; congestion control mechanisms).<br>&gt; <br>&gt; Simon<br>&gt; <br>&gt; =
In the former case (no congestion in the network), jitter<br>&gt; <br>&gt; =
Il 28/03/2011 14:14, Dean Willis ha scritto:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; It is not the bandwidth that worries me. It is packet =
loss and <br>&gt;&gt; resulting tcp retransmit jitter.<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&=
gt; On Mar 28, 2011 2:08 PM, &quot;Lorenzo Miniero&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:lorenzo@meetecho.com">lorenzo@meetecho.com</a> <br>
&gt;&gt; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:lorenzo@meetecho.com">lorenzo@meetech=
o.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; Hi Dean,<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;=
&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; On Mon, 28 Mar 2011 02:33:25 -0500<br>&gt;&gt; &=
gt; Dean Willis &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dean.willis@softarmor.com">dean.willi=
s@softarmor.com</a> <br>
&gt;&gt; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dean.willis@softarmor.com">dean.willi=
s@softarmor.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; I =
suggest trying it from a pc tethered to an EDGE mobile modem.<br>&gt;&gt; &=
gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; Or with no network at all :)<br>&gt;&gt; &gt=
;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; Jokes apart, it&#39;s clear that the QoE can&#39;t benef=
it from such limited <br>&gt;&gt; bandwidth/conditions, and that would be t=
rue for pure RTP as well. I <br>
&gt;&gt; can only say that we&#39;ve used this and older versions of the tu=
nnel on <br>&gt;&gt; limited networks (home adsls, umts, etc.) for our purp=
oses and it <br>&gt;&gt; seemed fine, though I agree that every attempt at =
addressing this <br>
&gt;&gt; feature should take care of tackling such issues.<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;=
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; L.<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>=
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; On Mar 26, 2011 4:49 PM, &quot;Lorenzo Miniero&quot; &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:lorenzo@meetecho.com">lorenzo@meetecho.com</a> <br>
&gt;&gt; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:lorenzo@meetecho.com">lorenzo@meetech=
o.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; Dear all,<br>&gt;&gt; &g=
t;&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; as anticipated, I&#39;ve just made av=
ailable a prototype version of our<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; RTP-over-HTTP tunneling approach:<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &g=
t;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"http://143.225.229.136/WebLite/echo=
test.jsp">http://143.225.229.136/WebLite/echotest.jsp</a><br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&=
gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; It is a very simple Echo Test: the page uses JavaScr=
ipt to setup a<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; server-originated SIP call to a URI ass=
ociated with an RTP echo <br>&gt;&gt; application.<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; The=
n, a Java applet is started to take care of the the RTP <br>
&gt;&gt; tunneling and<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; encoding/decoding process.<br>&=
gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; To play with it, just enabl=
e the &quot;Enable RTP tunneling&quot; checkbox <br>&gt;&gt; and then<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; click the button to launch the test. If everything goes f=
ine, a new box<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; should appear on the left with the remo=
te audio and video streams: <br>&gt;&gt; a voice<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; promp=
t with a video logo will precede the actual echo feature. All <br>
&gt;&gt; the RTP<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; packets will be tunneled over HTTP.<b=
r>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; Before you start, nevert=
heless, please have a quick look at a few<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; prerequisite=
s and instructions here:<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"http://ietf.con=
f.meetecho.com/index.php/Web_Client">http://ietf.conf.meetecho.com/index.ph=
p/Web_Client</a><br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; for wh=
at concerns the applet-based Audio/Video functionality <br>
&gt;&gt; (last section<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; in the page: our Web Client use=
s the same applet). In fact, applets <br>&gt;&gt; can give<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;=
&gt; a few problems at times (especially for multimedia-driven <br>&gt;&gt;=
 applications) in<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; some configurations, and so checking a few things before =
delving in <br>&gt;&gt; the demo<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; may spare you from he=
adache! :)<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; Let us know =
if and how it works. Of course please beware that <br>
&gt;&gt; this is just<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; a very dumb prototype, so rough =
that it can give you the creeps if <br>&gt;&gt; you just<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&g=
t; skim over it! :)<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; Nevertheless, the basic conce=
pts are there, so it may be useful <br>
&gt;&gt; to foster<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; some discussion on the matter. If y=
ou&#39;re interested in some more <br>&gt;&gt; details,<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt=
; I&#39;m already in Prague.<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;=
 &gt; Lorenzo<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;<=
br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; On Thu, 24 Mar 2011 17:52:17 +0100<br>&gt;&gt; &g=
t;&gt; &gt; Lorenzo Miniero &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lorenzo@meetecho.com">lor=
enzo@meetecho.com</a> <br>
&gt;&gt; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:lorenzo@meetecho.com">lorenzo@meetech=
o.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt=
;&gt; Hi Henry,<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;=
<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; On Wed, 23 Mar 2011 11:25:07 -0500<br>&gt;&gt; &=
gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; Henry Sinnreich &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henry.sinnreich@gmai=
l.com">henry.sinnreich@gmail.com</a> <br>&gt;&gt; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mai=
lto:henry.sinnreich@gmail.com">henry.sinnreich@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:=
<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; Hi Lorenzo, C=
ullen,<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt=
; &gt; We implemented something like that for our system, also <br>&gt;&gt;=
 documented in<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; a paper<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; lately: b=
asically a controller protocol that tunnels every other<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt=
; protocol on<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; top of HTTP to bypass=
 restrictive firewalls.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; Having e=
xplained HTTP tunneling flavors in the paper and also <br>&gt;&gt; shown<br=
>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; measurement results, besides a working pro=
duct, should really <br>
&gt;&gt; make IMO<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; your<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &=
gt; approach or something similar to it an option for the RTC-Web <br>&gt;&=
gt; media<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; solution. Such an option shoul=
d also be reflected in the API <br>
&gt;&gt; part, on<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; which<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; =
&gt; the draft-jennings-rtcweb-api is focused.<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt=
; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&=
gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; I&#39;d be glad to contribute to the definition of a =
related <br>
&gt;&gt; solution, should<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; such a work be started withi=
n the IETF.<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; I&#=
39;ll also try and make available, hopefully before the meeting, a<br>&gt;&=
gt; &gt;&gt; publicly reachable prototype version of our current approach f=
or <br>
&gt;&gt; you all to<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; play with, just to have some live =
experience to foster discussion.<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; =
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; L.<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt=
;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; RT media over HTTP may be quite effective i=
n some usage <br>&gt;&gt; scenarios, such<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; as<br>&gt;&g=
t; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; CDN with &gt;100k HTPP proxies around the globe, =
collocated in <br>
&gt;&gt; 1,000s of<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; networks with plenty =
of bandwidth, smaller delay and arguably <br>&gt;&gt; without<br>&gt;&gt; &=
gt;&gt; all<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; the other SIP, etc. intermed=
iaries found inside and between most<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; service<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; provider netwo=
rks.<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; =
I know profiles in standards are not desirable, but hindering<br>&gt;&gt; &=
gt;&gt; innovations<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; such as yours and ignoring CDN and other We=
b application <br>&gt;&gt; scenarios is<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; even<br>&gt;&g=
t; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; less desirable.<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt=
; This is a challenge both the IETF and the W3C will hopefully <br>
&gt;&gt; manage.<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &g=
t;&gt; &gt; Thanks for sharing,<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&=
gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; Henry<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; On 3/16/=
11 3:12 PM, &quot;Lorenzo Miniero&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lorenzo@meete=
cho.com">lorenzo@meetecho.com</a> <br>&gt;&gt; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto=
:lorenzo@meetecho.com">lorenzo@meetecho.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; On =
Wed, 16 Mar 2011 13:54:39 -0500<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; Hen=
ry Sinnreich &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henry.sinnreich@gmail.com">henry.sinnrei=
ch@gmail.com</a> <br>
&gt;&gt; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:henry.sinnreich@gmail.com">henry.sinn=
reich@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;<=
br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; Hi Cullen,<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;=
 &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; Section 3. Requirements says:<br>&=
gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; ... In addition, there is a strong =
interest to define a <br>&gt;&gt; TURN-like<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; protocol<b=
r>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; that looks like HTTP to intermedia=
ries, so that media can be<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; tunneled<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&g=
t; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; over HTTP.<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt=
;&gt; ...<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;=
 &gt;&gt; This is very interesting and innovative.<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt=
;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; Can you explain here a little bit?<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;=
 &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; Thanks, Henry<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;=
 &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt;=
 &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; We imp=
lemented something like that for our system, also <br>
&gt;&gt; documented in<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; a paper<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &g=
t;&gt; &gt; &gt; lately: basically a controller protocol that tunnels every=
 other<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; protocol on<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; =
&gt; top of HTTP to bypass restrictive firewalls. Since it works, <br>
&gt;&gt; we were<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; also<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &g=
t; &gt; thinking about a &quot;lightweight&quot; version of such protocol t=
o only<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; convey RTP<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &=
gt; specifically for our web interface, considering RTP is the only<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; protocol we<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; could=
n&#39;t wrap via JavaScript so far. So I agree that such a <br>&gt;&gt; TUR=
N-like<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; protocol<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt=
; would be a good idea for the WG.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt=
; Of course, there would be limitations and issues because of this<br>&gt;&=
gt; &gt;&gt; transport,<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; but since f=
irewalls are there to stay, and few of them like RTP<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; appearing &quot;out<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &g=
t; of the blue&quot;, that&#39;s something we probably need to live with.<b=
r>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &=
gt; L.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt=
;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;=
 &gt; &gt;&gt; On 3/10/11 2:20 PM, &quot;Cullen Jennings&quot; &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:fluffy@cisco.com">fluffy@cisco.com</a> <br>
&gt;&gt; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:fluffy@cisco.com">fluffy@cisco.com</a=
>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &g=
t;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&g=
t;&gt; I wrote up the start of a draft on requirements.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; =
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jennings-rtcw=
eb-api-00">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jennings-rtcweb-api-00</a><br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; =
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; I think the key thing for the key thing for IETF working =
is<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; starting to<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;=
&gt;&gt; think<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; about the requirements and wha=
t on the on the wire <br>&gt;&gt; protocols are<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; that w=
e<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; want<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;=
 &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; to select. I included some API definition becau=
se I found it<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; helpful to be<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;=
&gt; thinking about that in this draft but that would not be <br>&gt;&gt; p=
art of the<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; IETF<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt=
;&gt;&gt; work.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; That would be work I think W3C=
 should do. The draft also <br>&gt;&gt; touches on<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; the=
 of<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; the<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt=
; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; security issues for media and signaling origin=
ating from <br>
&gt;&gt; browsers.<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&=
gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; Cullen<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt=
; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; =
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; _________=
______________________________________<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &=
gt;&gt;&gt; dispatch mailing list<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:dispatch@iet=
f.org">dispatch@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dispatch@ietf.org=
">dispatch@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;=
 <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch</a><br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;=
 &gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; _____________________=
__________________________<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; disp=
atch mailing list<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:dispatch@ietf.or=
g">dispatch@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:dispatch@ietf.org">di=
spatch@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; <a href=
=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch">https://www.ietf.org/ma=
ilman/listinfo/dispatch</a><br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>=
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&=
gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &g=
t;&gt; --<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; Lorenzo Miniero, COB<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&g=
t;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; Meetecho s.r.l.<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&=
gt; Web Conferencing and Collaboration Tools<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; =
<a href=3D"http://www.meetecho.com">http://www.meetecho.com</a><br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; _______________________________________________<=
br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; dispatch mailing list<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &g=
t;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:dispatch@ietf.org">dispatch@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailt=
o:<a href=3D"mailto:dispatch@ietf.org">dispatch@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo=
/dispatch">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch</a><br>&gt;&gt; &=
gt;&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; --<br>&gt;=
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; Lorenzo Miniero, COB<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; Meetecho s.r.l.<br>&gt;&gt=
; &gt;&gt; &gt; Web Conferencing and Collaboration Tools<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&g=
t; &gt; <a href=3D"http://www.meetecho.com">http://www.meetecho.com</a><br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; _______________________________________________<br>&=
gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; dispatch mailing list<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; <a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:dispatch@ietf.org">dispatch@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D=
"mailto:dispatch@ietf.org">dispatch@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dis=
patch">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch</a><br>&gt;&gt; &gt;<=
br>&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; --<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; Lorenzo Miniero, COB<=
br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; Meetecho s.r.l.<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; Web Confere=
ncing and Collaboration Tools<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"http://www.meetec=
ho.com">http://www.meetecho.com</a><br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt;<br>&gt;&gt; ___=
____________________________________________<br>
&gt;&gt; dispatch mailing list<br>&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:dispatch@ietf.=
org">dispatch@ietf.org</a><br>&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mail=
man/listinfo/dispatch">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch</a><b=
r>
&gt; <br>&gt; -- <br>&gt;                              _\\|//_<br>&gt;     =
                         ( O-O )<br>&gt;     ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~o00~~(_)=
~~00o~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<br>&gt;                      Simon Pietro Rom=
ano<br>
&gt;                Universita&#39; di Napoli Federico II<br>&gt;          =
         Computer Science Department<br>&gt;          Phone: +39 081 768382=
3 -- Fax: +39 081 7684219<br>&gt;                  e-mail: <a href=3D"mailt=
o:spromano@unina.it">spromano@unina.it</a><br>
&gt;            <a href=3D"http://www.comics.unina.it/simonpietro.romano">h=
ttp://www.comics.unina.it/simonpietro.romano</a><br>&gt; <br>&gt;      &lt;=
&lt;Molti mi dicono che lo scoraggiamento =E8 l&#39;alibi degli<br>&gt;    =
 idioti. Ci rifletto un istante; e mi scoraggio&gt;&gt;. Magritte.<br>
&gt;                           oooO<br>&gt;     ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~(   )=
~~ Oooo~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<br>&gt;                            \ (    =
(   )<br>&gt;                             \_)    ) /<br>&gt;               =
                    (_/<br>
&gt; <br>&gt; <br></div>

--00504502c5c6343cf0049f8c0db0--

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Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 16:04:50 -0500
From: Thierry Bessis <Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com>
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To: "Worley, Dale R (Dale)" <dworley@avaya.com>
References: <4D755B9E.6030008@bell-labs.com>	<4D7566C1.40605@cisco.com>	<4D756C47.1000509@bell-labs.com>	<086e01cbdd4e$6b8188f0$42849ad0$@packetizer.com>	<4D7668B9.1020105@alcatel-lucent.com>	<004601cbddd2$15b11ab0$41135010$@packetizer.com>	<4D77B831.7000404@alcatel-lucent.com>	<026f01cbded9$be15f290$3a41d7b0$@packetizer.com>	<4D791595.2010703@alcatel-lucent.com>	<A11921905DA1564D9BCF64A6430A62390293A694@XMB-BGL-411.cisco.com>	<4D7A485E.2080602@alcatel-lucent.com>	<A11921905DA1564D9BCF64A6430A623904BE39CC@XMB-BGL-411.cisco.com>	<4D80ED57.7030709@alcatel-lucent.com>	<A11921905DA1564D9BCF64A6430A62390293A6AD@XMB-BGL-411.cisco.com>, <4D826CC5.9010502@alcatel-lucent.com> <CD5674C3CD99574EBA7432465FC13C1B22246BD344@DC-US1MBEX4.global.avaya.com>
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Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing
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Dale,

This reasoning makes a lot of sense, but the best strategy is described 
in one particular scenario, using one information that we would not 
have, and another that would be approximate at best.

At best you could estimate the number of sessions left (the other 
proposal), but then, we have no ideas of the percentage of resources 
left (Still the other proposal). So if we have an node that has (or 
think it has  ! ...) 10 times more capacity , starting from idle, the 
other proposal will basically not use the smallest node until the 
biggest gets close to overload, which is something that we (and at least 
some operators) do not like.

  Now in the situation that you describe, you are correct that one 
server would have 10 times more capacity, so we are going to an 
unbalanced situation. But this is how you got there in the first place: 
the next weight in the smallest node will be zero, while it would be 
still 1% in the biggest one, so this will (again) tend to balance.

Also, I believe we do not need to be optimal in extreme cases such as 
this one (99% utilization and one node 10 times the capacity of the 
other). This is especially true when you consider that nodes could have 
different views of their "sessions left" so the theoretical "optimal" 
might not be optimal at all.

Cordially,

Thierry

On 24-Mar-2011 14:54, Worley, Dale R (Dale) wrote:
> ________________________________________
> From: dispatch-bounces@ietf.org [dispatch-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Thierry Bessis [Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com]
>
> TB>  It seems to me that this comment just reinforces my point (I hope I understand well): We need to let the destination come up its own way with its percentage of resource left, because there are so many possible implementations that it would be cumbersome and restrictive to impose any algorithm. Also just to be sure: The proposed weight is a percentage (a ratio): it has no unit. Part of the robustness and universality is derived from this characteristic.
> ________________________________________
>
> I haven't done an analysis, but I strongly expect that the overall system behaves better if all systems report their available capacity
> in the same amount of traffic ("number of calls") rather than percentage of capacity that is unused.
>
> The reason is that if two servers have significantly different capacity, say by a factor of 10, when both servers report 1% of capacity
> free, one server will be able to accept 10 times as much traffic as the other.
>
> Dale
> _______________________________________________
> dispatch mailing list
> dispatch@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch

-- 
-- 
Cordially,
Thierry Bessis
IMS Solution: Architecture & Product Management - ALTA Member
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    Dale,<br>
    <br>
    This reasoning makes a lot of sense, but the best strategy is
    described in one particular scenario, using one information that we
    would not have, and another that would be approximate at best. <br>
    <br>
    At best you could estimate the number of sessions left (the other
    proposal), but then, we have no ideas of the percentage of resources
    left (Still the other proposal). So if we have an node that has (or
    think it has&nbsp; ! ...) 10 times more capacity , starting from idle,
    the other proposal will basically not use the smallest node until
    the biggest gets close to overload, which is something that we (and
    at least some operators) do not like. <br>
    <br>
    &nbsp;Now in the situation that you describe, you are correct that one
    server would have 10 times more capacity, so we are going to an
    unbalanced situation. But this is how you got there in the first
    place: the next weight in the smallest node will be zero, while it
    would be still 1% in the biggest one, so this will (again) tend to
    balance.<br>
    <br>
    Also, I believe we do not need to be optimal in extreme cases such
    as this one (99% utilization and one node 10 times the capacity of
    the other). This is especially true when you consider that nodes
    could have different views of their "sessions left" so the
    theoretical "optimal" might not be optimal at all. <br>
    <br>
    Cordially, <br>
    <br>
    Thierry<br>
    <br>
    On 24-Mar-2011 14:54, Worley, Dale R (Dale) wrote:
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CD5674C3CD99574EBA7432465FC13C1B22246BD344@DC-US1MBEX4.global.avaya.com"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">________________________________________
From: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dispatch-bounces@ietf.org">dispatch-bounces@ietf.org</a> [<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dispatch-bounces@ietf.org">dispatch-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Thierry Bessis [<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com">Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com</a>]

TB&gt; It seems to me that this comment just reinforces my point (I hope I understand well): We need to let the destination come up its own way with its percentage of resource left, because there are so many possible implementations that it would be cumbersome and restrictive to impose any algorithm. Also just to be sure: The proposed weight is a percentage (a ratio): it has no unit. Part of the robustness and universality is derived from this characteristic.
________________________________________

I haven't done an analysis, but I strongly expect that the overall system behaves better if all systems report their available capacity
in the same amount of traffic ("number of calls") rather than percentage of capacity that is unused.

The reason is that if two servers have significantly different capacity, say by a factor of 10, when both servers report 1% of capacity
free, one server will be able to accept 10 times as much traffic as the other.

Dale
_______________________________________________
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</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
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      <big style="font-weight: bold;"><big><big><span
              style="font-family: French Script MT;">-- <br>
              Cordially, <br>
            </span></big></big></big><big style="font-weight: bold;"><big><big><span
              style="font-family: French Script MT;">Thierry Bessis</span></big></big></big>
      <div> </div>
      <div> </div>
      &nbsp;
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">IMS Solution: Architecture
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      <span style="font-family: Arial;">&nbsp; Organization: ALU &gt; Carrier
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      &nbsp;
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      <small><br>
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From pkyzivat@cisco.com  Mon Mar 28 14:34:05 2011
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Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing
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ISTM that it doesn't matter much what algorithm you use until at least 
one node starts to approach full capacity. (And this includes not 
mattering if all are at the same percentage utilization. Is there 
anything wrong with the 10x box getting all the traffic for awhile 
before the 1x box gets any, as long as all the traffic is being served?)

What matters is what happens when you start to approach full capacity.

Even then, maybe it doesn't matter whether you get to the point where 
either all the boxes are at 99% capacity, or all boxes have room for one 
more call of any type.

But it does matter if 1% available capacity is enough for 100 calls, or 
if 1% capacity is insufficient for even one more call.

I'm starting to suspect that an algorithm that works for boxes that 
handle 10k calls may not work so well for boxes that handle 100 calls.

	Thanks,
	Paul

On 3/28/2011 5:04 PM, Thierry Bessis wrote:
> Dale,
>
> This reasoning makes a lot of sense, but the best strategy is described
> in one particular scenario, using one information that we would not
> have, and another that would be approximate at best.
>
> At best you could estimate the number of sessions left (the other
> proposal), but then, we have no ideas of the percentage of resources
> left (Still the other proposal). So if we have an node that has (or
> think it has ! ...) 10 times more capacity , starting from idle, the
> other proposal will basically not use the smallest node until the
> biggest gets close to overload, which is something that we (and at least
> some operators) do not like.
>
> Now in the situation that you describe, you are correct that one server
> would have 10 times more capacity, so we are going to an unbalanced
> situation. But this is how you got there in the first place: the next
> weight in the smallest node will be zero, while it would be still 1% in
> the biggest one, so this will (again) tend to balance.
>
> Also, I believe we do not need to be optimal in extreme cases such as
> this one (99% utilization and one node 10 times the capacity of the
> other). This is especially true when you consider that nodes could have
> different views of their "sessions left" so the theoretical "optimal"
> might not be optimal at all.
>
> Cordially,
>
> Thierry
>
> On 24-Mar-2011 14:54, Worley, Dale R (Dale) wrote:
>> ________________________________________
>> From:dispatch-bounces@ietf.org  [dispatch-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Thierry Bessis [Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com]
>>
>> TB>  It seems to me that this comment just reinforces my point (I hope I understand well): We need to let the destination come up its own way with its percentage of resource left, because there are so many possible implementations that it would be cumbersome and restrictive to impose any algorithm. Also just to be sure: The proposed weight is a percentage (a ratio): it has no unit. Part of the robustness and universality is derived from this characteristic.
>> ________________________________________
>>
>> I haven't done an analysis, but I strongly expect that the overall system behaves better if all systems report their available capacity
>> in the same amount of traffic ("number of calls") rather than percentage of capacity that is unused.
>>
>> The reason is that if two servers have significantly different capacity, say by a factor of 10, when both servers report 1% of capacity
>> free, one server will be able to accept 10 times as much traffic as the other.
>>
>> Dale
>> _______________________________________________
>> dispatch mailing list
>> dispatch@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
>
> --
> --
> Cordially,
> Thierry Bessis
> IMS Solution: Architecture & Product Management - ALTA Member
> Organization: ALU > Carrier group > Wireline BU > **IMS Sol Arch, SE, PdM
> Alcatel-Lucent
> 1960 Lucent Lane - Room 6L-517
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>
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>
> Conference information:
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>
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Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing
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On Mar 24, 2011, at 3:54 PM, Worley, Dale R (Dale) wrote:

> I haven't done an analysis, but I strongly expect that the overall system=
 behaves better if all systems report their available capacity
> in the same amount of traffic ("number of calls") rather than percentage =
of capacity that is unused.
>=20
> The reason is that if two servers have significantly different capacity, =
say by a factor of 10, when both servers report 1% of capacity
> free, one server will be able to accept 10 times as much traffic as the o=
ther.

I don't think anyone's proposing to advertise a literal percentage of capac=
ity, for obvious reasons. (ie, the device isn't advertising the numbers 0-1=
00 to mean 0-100%)

But anyway, although in theory the algorithm auto-adjusts in such a case re=
gardless - in practice my guess is the operators of the systems would confi=
gure the literal starting/max-number based on the capacity relative to othe=
r systems, so that you wouldn't really have a case of two systems of very d=
ifferent capacity starting out advertising the same values.

-hadriel


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References: <4D755B9E.6030008@bell-labs.com>	<4D7566C1.40605@cisco.com> <4D756C47.1000509@bell-labs.com> <086e01cbdd4e$6b8188f0$42849ad0$@packetizer.com> <4D7668B9.1020105@alcatel-lucent.com> <004601cbddd2$15b11ab0$41135010$@packetizer.com> <4D77B831.7000404@alcatel-lucent.com> <026f01cbded9$be15f290$3a41d7b0$@packetizer.com> <4D791595.2010703@alcatel-lucent.com> <A11921905DA1564D9BCF64A6430A62390293A694@XMB-BGL-411.cisco.com> <4D7A485E.2080602@alcatel-lucent.com> <A11921905DA1564D9BCF64A6430A623904BE39CC@XMB-BGL-411.cisco.com> <4D80ED57.7030709@alcatel-lucent.com> <A11921905DA1564D9BCF64A6430A62390293A6AD@XMB-BGL-411.cisco.com>, <4D826CC5.9010502@alcatel-lucent.com> <CD5674C3CD99574EBA7432465FC13C1B22246BD344@DC-US1MBEX4.global.avaya.com> <DFC287E5-B0BD-4F1A-B25E-2680E4EEB46A@acmepacket.com>
From: "Parthasarathi R (partr)" <partr@cisco.com>
To: "Hadriel Kaplan" <HKaplan@acmepacket.com>, "Worley, Dale R (Dale)" <dworley@avaya.com>
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Cc: dispatch@ietf.org, Thierry Bessis <Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com>
Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing
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Hadriel,

In your proposed algorithm, Two information is required for load
balancing:

1) Max or total capacity is exchanged by non-sip mechanism (may be
configuration) one time or frequently in case capacity of the device
varies=20
2) Current capacity of the system is passed in each message.=20

It is the place where I'm looking for units like "number of calls" or
"number of media packets" to be clearly spelt out in the mechanism
because percentage as a unit will not serve the purpose and finding the
relation between two or more system capacity is really tough (to
configure or manage).

Thanks
Partha=20

-----Original Message-----
From: Hadriel Kaplan [mailto:HKaplan@acmepacket.com]=20
Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2011 1:08 PM
To: Worley, Dale R (Dale)
Cc: Thierry Bessis; Parthasarathi R (partr); dispatch@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing


On Mar 24, 2011, at 3:54 PM, Worley, Dale R (Dale) wrote:

> I haven't done an analysis, but I strongly expect that the overall=20
> system behaves better if all systems report their available capacity
in the same amount of traffic ("number of calls") rather than percentage
of capacity that is unused.
>=20
> The reason is that if two servers have significantly different=20
> capacity, say by a factor of 10, when both servers report 1% of
capacity free, one server will be able to accept 10 times as much
traffic as the other.

I don't think anyone's proposing to advertise a literal percentage of
capacity, for obvious reasons. (ie, the device isn't advertising the
numbers 0-100 to mean 0-100%)

But anyway, although in theory the algorithm auto-adjusts in such a case
regardless - in practice my guess is the operators of the systems would
configure the literal starting/max-number based on the capacity relative
to other systems, so that you wouldn't really have a case of two systems
of very different capacity starting out advertising the same values.

-hadriel


From HKaplan@acmepacket.com  Tue Mar 29 02:33:35 2011
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From: Hadriel Kaplan <HKaplan@acmepacket.com>
To: "Parthasarathi R (partr)" <partr@cisco.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 05:35:08 -0400
Thread-Topic: [dispatch] SIP load balancing
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Cc: "dispatch@ietf.org" <dispatch@ietf.org>, Thierry Bessis <Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com>
Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing
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On Mar 29, 2011, at 5:07 AM, Parthasarathi R (partr) wrote:

> Hadriel,
>=20
> In your proposed algorithm, Two information is required for load
> balancing:
>=20
> 1) Max or total capacity is exchanged by non-sip mechanism (may be
> configuration) one time or frequently in case capacity of the device
> varies=20

Nope - it's not signaled separately.  I was talking about the number used a=
s the baseline/reference/100% number value.  So think of it like the call-c=
apacity: if we signaled a call-capacity, all I'm saying is that the max cal=
l-capactiy (the capacity when the system has no current calls) would be con=
figured by the admin to begin with, rather than hardcoded in the system.  B=
ut in this case we're not talking about a call-capacity... we're talking ab=
out a "resource load" or some such. (which may happen to be a call capacity=
 in someone's system, but doesn't have to be)


> 2) Current capacity of the system is passed in each message.=20
>=20
> It is the place where I'm looking for units like "number of calls" or
> "number of media packets" to be clearly spelt out in the mechanism

And I'm saying there's no way we could ever agree on all the possible set o=
f constraints which affect system load - so we could never send a unit like=
 "number of calls" or "number of media packets", because there are just way=
 too many such units which have different impacts on different system types=
.


> because percentage as a unit will not serve the purpose and finding the
> relation between two or more system capacity is really tough (to
> configure or manage).

Just to be clear we're on the same page - it's not really a "percentage uni=
t".  A percentage unit would be something like 73.4%.  No one's proposing s=
ignaling "73.4%". =20

-hadriel


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Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing
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On 3/29/2011 3:37 AM, Hadriel Kaplan wrote:
>
> On Mar 24, 2011, at 3:54 PM, Worley, Dale R (Dale) wrote:
>
>> I haven't done an analysis, but I strongly expect that the overall system behaves better if all systems report their available capacity
>> in the same amount of traffic ("number of calls") rather than percentage of capacity that is unused.
>>
>> The reason is that if two servers have significantly different capacity, say by a factor of 10, when both servers report 1% of capacity
>> free, one server will be able to accept 10 times as much traffic as the other.
>
> I don't think anyone's proposing to advertise a literal percentage of capacity, for obvious reasons. (ie, the device isn't advertising the numbers 0-100 to mean 0-100%)
>
> But anyway, although in theory the algorithm auto-adjusts in such a case regardless - in practice my guess is the operators of the systems would configure the literal starting/max-number based on the capacity relative to other systems, so that you wouldn't really have a case of two systems of very different capacity starting out advertising the same values.

Its possible to abuse anything. But we're in trouble if we start out 
assuming that this be used contrary to the design intent.

If people scale their use of percent capacity so that the big box maxes 
out at 100 and the smaller box maxes out at 50, then it has been 
transformed into something like the SCE mechanism, that have quite 
different properties. If that is what we expect people to use then we 
should design and analyze it on that basis.

	Thanks,
	Paul

> -hadriel
>
> _______________________________________________
> dispatch mailing list
> dispatch@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
>

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Subject: Re: [dispatch] SIP load balancing
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inline

On 3/29/2011 5:35 AM, Hadriel Kaplan wrote:
>
>
>
>
> On Mar 29, 2011, at 5:07 AM, Parthasarathi R (partr) wrote:
>
>> Hadriel,
>>
>> In your proposed algorithm, Two information is required for load
>> balancing:
>>
>> 1) Max or total capacity is exchanged by non-sip mechanism (may be
>> configuration) one time or frequently in case capacity of the device
>> varies
>
> Nope - it's not signaled separately.  I was talking about the number used as the baseline/reference/100% number value.  So think of it like the call-capacity: if we signaled a call-capacity, all I'm saying is that the max call-capactiy (the capacity when the system has no current calls) would be configured by the admin to begin with, rather than hardcoded in the system.  But in this case we're not talking about a call-capacity... we're talking about a "resource load" or some such. (which may happen to be a call capacity in someone's system, but doesn't have to be)
>
>
>> 2) Current capacity of the system is passed in each message.
>>
>> It is the place where I'm looking for units like "number of calls" or
>> "number of media packets" to be clearly spelt out in the mechanism
>
> And I'm saying there's no way we could ever agree on all the possible set of constraints which affect system load - so we could never send a unit like "number of calls" or "number of media packets", because there are just way too many such units which have different impacts on different system types.
>
>
>> because percentage as a unit will not serve the purpose and finding the
>> relation between two or more system capacity is really tough (to
>> configure or manage).
>
> Just to be clear we're on the same page - it's not really a "percentage unit".  A percentage unit would be something like 73.4%.  No one's proposing signaling "73.4%".

Well...

IIUC, Thierry *is* talking about a "percentage unit", but rescaled from 
[0..100) to [0..2^16-1].

I'm sure he'll correct me if I have that wrong.

	Thanks,
	Paul

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Kaplan,
> I don't think anyone's proposing to advertise a literal percentage of capacity, for obvious reasons. (ie, the device isn't advertising the numbers 0-100 to mean 0-100%)
Actually we do !  This is what we are doing in our system. (we really 
are using a byte [0..255] but it means the exact same thing).
We are dealing with cases where some nodes may have 2-3 times the 
capacity of others due to hardware generation gap. (but not 10 times ... 
). we are also dealing with growing/degrowing, and temporary partial 
capacity loss: it works well.
> But anyway, although in theory the algorithm auto-adjusts in such a case regardless - in practice my guess is the operators of the systems would configure the literal starting/max-number based on the capacity relative to other systems, so that you wouldn't really have a case of two systems of very different capacity starting out advertising the same values.
This is also what we are trying to avoid: having the operator need to 
compare nodes capacity (possibly from different vendors), and come up 
with complicated engineering rules to configure the weights (rules that 
additionally would need to change each time something is modfied in the 
network).  All our nodes advertise about 100% availability when they 
start, whatever their capacity (unless they were also used for other tasks)

Cordially,

Thierry
> -hadriel
>
> _______________________________________________
> dispatch mailing list
> dispatch@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch

-- 
-- 
Cordially,
Thierry Bessis
IMS Solution: Architecture & Product Management - ALTA Member
   Organization: ALU > Carrier group > Wireline BU > **IMS Sol Arch, SE, PdM
Alcatel-Lucent
1960 Lucent Lane - Room 6L-517
   Naperville, IL  60563  U S
   Tel/Fax: +1 630 979 7989
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Engage: https://engage.alcatel-lucent.com/people/tbessis
My Calendar:   www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=new_frs3175%40yahoo.fr
ALTA Hot Line: http://alta.all.alcatel-lucent.com/hotline

Conference information:
2801 2801 (US):+1 800 771 8734 - (F):+33 800 941 674 - Access Code: 9797989
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    Kaplan, <br>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:DFC287E5-B0BD-4F1A-B25E-2680E4EEB46A@acmepacket.com"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">I don't think anyone's proposing to advertise a literal percentage of capacity, for obvious reasons. (ie, the device isn't advertising the numbers 0-100 to mean 0-100%)
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    Actually we do !&nbsp; This is what we are doing in our system. (we
    really are using a byte [0..255] but it means the exact same thing).<br>
    We are dealing with cases where some nodes may have 2-3 times the
    capacity of others due to hardware generation gap. (but not 10 times
    ... ). we are also dealing with growing/degrowing, and temporary
    partial capacity loss: it works well.
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:DFC287E5-B0BD-4F1A-B25E-2680E4EEB46A@acmepacket.com"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">But anyway, although in theory the algorithm auto-adjusts in such a case regardless - in practice my guess is the operators of the systems would configure the literal starting/max-number based on the capacity relative to other systems, so that you wouldn't really have a case of two systems of very different capacity starting out advertising the same values.
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    This is also what we are trying to avoid: having the operator need
    to compare nodes capacity (possibly from different vendors), and
    come up with complicated engineering rules to configure the weights
    (rules that additionally would need to change each time something is
    modfied in the network).&nbsp; All our nodes advertise about 100%
    availability when they start, whatever their capacity (unless they
    were also used for other tasks)&nbsp; <br>
    <br>
    Cordially, <br>
    <br>
    Thierry<br>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:DFC287E5-B0BD-4F1A-B25E-2680E4EEB46A@acmepacket.com"
      type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">
-hadriel

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      <span style="font-family: Arial;">IMS Solution: Architecture
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      <span style="font-family: Arial;">&nbsp; Organization: ALU &gt; Carrier
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      <img style="width: 242px; height: 66px;" alt="Alcatel-Lucent"
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      &nbsp;
      <span style="font-family: Arial;"></span><span style="font-family:
        Arial;">1960 Lucent Lane - Room 6L-517</span><br
        style="font-family: Arial;">
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        S</span><br style="font-family: Arial;">
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        9797989<br>
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All,
>> Just to be clear we're on the same page - it's not really a 
>> "percentage unit".  A percentage unit would be something like 73.4%.  
>> No one's proposing signaling "73.4%".
>
> Well...
>
> IIUC, Thierry *is* talking about a "percentage unit", but rescaled 
> from [0..100) to [0..2^16-1].
> I'm sure he'll correct me if I have that wrong.
You completely correct Paul. Whatever the scale we decide to use, I 
proposed a percentage. It is the ratio of the number of available 
resources on the total number of resources.
Vijay will make it clear in the next draft, and we will probably propose 
to use directly a percentage [0 ..100] to make things easier.
We think that a direct percentage should be enough in terms of 
precision, because the resource usage precision is also in this order of 
magnitude.

cordially,

Thierry
>
>     Thanks,
>     Paul
> _______________________________________________
> dispatch mailing list
> dispatch@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch

-- 
-- 
Cordially,
Thierry Bessis
IMS Solution: Architecture & Product Management - ALTA Member
   Organization: ALU > Carrier group > Wireline BU > **IMS Sol Arch, SE, PdM
Alcatel-Lucent
1960 Lucent Lane - Room 6L-517
   Naperville, IL  60563  U S
   Tel/Fax: +1 630 979 7989
   Corporate IM: tbessis

Engage: https://engage.alcatel-lucent.com/people/tbessis
My Calendar:   www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=new_frs3175%40yahoo.fr
ALTA Hot Line: http://alta.all.alcatel-lucent.com/hotline

Conference information:
2801 2801 (US):+1 800 771 8734 - (F):+33 800 941 674 - Access Code: 9797989
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    All, <br>
    <blockquote cite="mid:4D91CDAC.1030302@cisco.com" type="cite">
      <blockquote type="cite">Just to be clear we're on the same page -
        it's not really a "percentage unit".&nbsp; A percentage unit would be
        something like 73.4%.&nbsp; No one's proposing signaling "73.4%".
        <br>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      Well...
      <br>
      <br>
      IIUC, Thierry *is* talking about a "percentage unit", but rescaled
      from [0..100) to [0..2^16-1].
      <br>
      I'm sure he'll correct me if I have that wrong.
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    You completely correct Paul. Whatever the scale we decide to use, I
    proposed a percentage. It is the ratio of the number of available
    resources on the total number of resources. <br>
    Vijay will make it clear in the next draft, and we will probably
    propose to use directly a percentage [0 ..100] to make things
    easier. <br>
    We think that a direct percentage should be enough in terms of
    precision, because the resource usage precision is also in this
    order of magnitude. <br>
    <br>
    cordially, <br>
    <br>
    Thierry<br>
    <blockquote cite="mid:4D91CDAC.1030302@cisco.com" type="cite">
      <br>
      &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Thanks,
      <br>
      &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Paul
      <br>
      _______________________________________________
      <br>
      dispatch mailing list
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              style="font-family: French Script MT;">Thierry Bessis</span></big></big></big>
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      &nbsp;
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">IMS Solution: Architecture
        &amp; Product Management - ALTA Member</span><br
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      <span style="font-family: Arial;">&nbsp; Organization: ALU &gt; Carrier
        group &gt;
        Wireline BU &gt;&nbsp;</span><b> </b>IMS Sol Arch, SE, PdM<br>
      <img style="width: 242px; height: 66px;" alt="Alcatel-Lucent"
src="file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/tbessis/My%20Documents/al_corp_h_3d_16mm.jpg"><br>
      &nbsp;
      <span style="font-family: Arial;"></span><span style="font-family:
        Arial;">1960 Lucent Lane - Room 6L-517</span><br
        style="font-family: Arial;">
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">&nbsp; Naperville, IL&nbsp;
        60563&nbsp; U
        S</span><br style="font-family: Arial;">
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">&nbsp; Tel/Fax: +1 630 979 7989</span><br
        style="font-family: Arial;">
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">&nbsp; Corporate IM:
        tbessis</span><br>
      <small><br>
      </small>Engage: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://engage.alcatel-lucent.com/people/tbessis">https://engage.alcatel-lucent.com/people/tbessis</a><br>
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        Code:
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        others countries see: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://all.alcatel-lucent.com/audio">http://all.alcatel-lucent.com/audio</a></small><br>
      <br>
      <big style="font-weight: bold;"><big><span style="font-family:
            French Script MT;">Upcoming planned Business Trip:
            12 April - 14 April 2011</span></big></big><br>
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References: <4D755B9E.6030008@bell-labs.com>	<4D7566C1.40605@cisco.com>	<4D756C47.1000509@bell-labs.com>	<086e01cbdd4e$6b8188f0$42849ad0$@packetizer.com>	<4D7668B9.1020105@alcatel-lucent.com>	<004601cbddd2$15b11ab0$41135010$@packetizer.com>	<4D77B831.7000404@alcatel-lucent.com>	<026f01cbded9$be15f290$3a41d7b0$@packetizer.com>	<4D791595.2010703@alcatel-lucent.com>	<A11921905DA1564D9BCF64A6430A62390293A694@XMB-BGL-411.cisco.com>	<4D7A485E.2080602@alcatel-lucent.com>	<A11921905DA1564D9BCF64A6430A623904BE39CC@XMB-BGL-411.cisco.com>	<4D80ED57.7030709@alcatel-lucent.com>	<A11921905DA1564D9BCF64A6430A62390293A6AD@XMB-BGL-411.cisco.com>, <4D826CC5.9010502@alcatel-lucent.com>	<CD5674C3CD99574EBA7432465FC13C1B22246BD344@DC-US1MBEX4.global.avaya.com>	<DFC287E5-B0BD-4F1A-B25E-2680E4EEB46A@acmepacket.com> <4D91C581.4040802@cisco.com>
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>> But anyway, although in theory the algorithm auto-adjusts in such a 
>> case regardless - in practice my guess is the operators of the 
>> systems would configure the literal starting/max-number based on the 
>> capacity relative to other systems, so that you wouldn't really have 
>> a case of two systems of very different capacity starting out 
>> advertising the same values.
>
> Its possible to abuse anything. But we're in trouble if we start out 
> assuming that this be used contrary to the design intent.
>
> If people scale their use of percent capacity so that the big box 
> maxes out at 100 and the smaller box maxes out at 50, then it has been 
> transformed into something like the SCE mechanism, that have quite 
> different properties. If that is what we expect people to use then we 
> should design and analyze it on that basis.
Yes, I agree with Paul's point.
The whole point of our proposal is two folds: (1) simplicity 
(straightforward weight calculation) and (2) NO dependency (No network  
engineering or topology considerations to setup weights: each node 
provides its weight independently).

Cordially,

Thierry

>
>     Thanks,
>     Paul
>
>> -hadriel
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> dispatch mailing list
>> dispatch@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
>>
> _______________________________________________
> dispatch mailing list
> dispatch@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch

-- 
-- 
Cordially,
Thierry Bessis
IMS Solution: Architecture & Product Management - ALTA Member
   Organization: ALU > Carrier group > Wireline BU > **IMS Sol Arch, SE, PdM
Alcatel-Lucent
1960 Lucent Lane - Room 6L-517
   Naperville, IL  60563  U S
   Tel/Fax: +1 630 979 7989
   Corporate IM: tbessis

Engage: https://engage.alcatel-lucent.com/people/tbessis
My Calendar:   www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=new_frs3175%40yahoo.fr
ALTA Hot Line: http://alta.all.alcatel-lucent.com/hotline

Conference information:
2801 2801 (US):+1 800 771 8734 - (F):+33 800 941 674 - Access Code: 9797989
others countries see: http://all.alcatel-lucent.com/audio

Upcoming planned Business Trip: 12 April - 14 April 2011
Upcoming planned Vacation: None

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    <br>
    <blockquote cite="mid:4D91C581.4040802@cisco.com" type="cite">
      <blockquote type="cite">But anyway, although in theory the
        algorithm auto-adjusts in such a case regardless - in practice
        my guess is the operators of the systems would configure the
        literal starting/max-number based on the capacity relative to
        other systems, so that you wouldn't really have a case of two
        systems of very different capacity starting out advertising the
        same values.
        <br>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      Its possible to abuse anything. But we're in trouble if we start
      out assuming that this be used contrary to the design intent.
      <br>
      <br>
      If people scale their use of percent capacity so that the big box
      maxes out at 100 and the smaller box maxes out at 50, then it has
      been transformed into something like the SCE mechanism, that have
      quite different properties. If that is what we expect people to
      use then we should design and analyze it on that basis.
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    Yes, I agree with Paul's point. <br>
    The whole point of our proposal is two folds: (1) simplicity
    (straightforward weight calculation) and (2) NO dependency (No
    network&nbsp; engineering or topology considerations to setup weights:
    each node provides its weight independently). <br>
    <br>
    Cordially, <br>
    <br>
    Thierry<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote cite="mid:4D91C581.4040802@cisco.com" type="cite">
      <br>
      &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Thanks,
      <br>
      &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Paul
      <br>
      <br>
      <blockquote type="cite">-hadriel
        <br>
        <br>
        _______________________________________________
        <br>
        dispatch mailing list
        <br>
        <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dispatch@ietf.org">dispatch@ietf.org</a>
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        <br>
        <br>
      </blockquote>
      _______________________________________________
      <br>
      dispatch mailing list
      <br>
      <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:dispatch@ietf.org">dispatch@ietf.org</a>
      <br>
      <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch</a>
      <br>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
      <meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
        http-equiv="Content-Type">
      <title>Thierry's signature</title>
      <meta content="Thierry Bessis" name="author">
      <big style="font-weight: bold;"><big><big><span
              style="font-family: French Script MT;">-- <br>
              Cordially, <br>
            </span></big></big></big><big style="font-weight: bold;"><big><big><span
              style="font-family: French Script MT;">Thierry Bessis</span></big></big></big>
      <div> </div>
      <div> </div>
      &nbsp;
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">IMS Solution: Architecture
        &amp; Product Management - ALTA Member</span><br
        style="font-family: Arial;">
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">&nbsp; Organization: ALU &gt; Carrier
        group &gt;
        Wireline BU &gt;&nbsp;</span><b> </b>IMS Sol Arch, SE, PdM<br>
      <img style="width: 242px; height: 66px;" alt="Alcatel-Lucent"
src="file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/tbessis/My%20Documents/al_corp_h_3d_16mm.jpg"><br>
      &nbsp;
      <span style="font-family: Arial;"></span><span style="font-family:
        Arial;">1960 Lucent Lane - Room 6L-517</span><br
        style="font-family: Arial;">
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">&nbsp; Naperville, IL&nbsp;
        60563&nbsp; U
        S</span><br style="font-family: Arial;">
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">&nbsp; Tel/Fax: +1 630 979 7989</span><br
        style="font-family: Arial;">
      <span style="font-family: Arial;">&nbsp; Corporate IM:
        tbessis</span><br>
      <small><br>
      </small>Engage: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://engage.alcatel-lucent.com/people/tbessis">https://engage.alcatel-lucent.com/people/tbessis</a><br>
      <small>My Calendar:&nbsp;&nbsp;
        <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=new_frs3175%40yahoo.fr">www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=new_frs3175%40yahoo.fr</a><br>
        ALTA Hot Line: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://alta.all.alcatel-lucent.com/hotline">http://alta.all.alcatel-lucent.com/hotline</a></small><br>
      <br>
      <small>Conference information:<br>
        2801 2801 (US):+1 800 771 8734 - (F):+33 800 941 674 - Access
        Code:
        9797989<br>
        others countries see: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://all.alcatel-lucent.com/audio">http://all.alcatel-lucent.com/audio</a></small><br>
      <br>
      <big style="font-weight: bold;"><big><span style="font-family:
            French Script MT;">Upcoming planned Business Trip:
            12 April - 14 April 2011</span></big></big><br>
      <big style="font-weight: bold;"><big><span style="font-family:
            French Script MT;">Upcoming planned Vacation: None</span></big></big>
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From spromano@unina.it  Tue Mar 29 14:17:30 2011
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Dear all,

for those interested, the full recording (synchronized video, audio, 
slides and jabber room) of today's BOF on RTCWEB is available at the 
following URL:

http://ietf.conf.meetecho.com

Please be advised that the file is quite big (~200M), since it contains 
the entire session. In case of problems with the playout, just drop an 
e-mail to ietf-support@meetecho.com.

Cheers,

Simon


-- 
                             _\\|//_
                             ( O-O )
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~o00~~(_)~~00o~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                     Simon Pietro Romano
               Universita' di Napoli Federico II
                  Computer Science Department
         Phone: +39 081 7683823 -- Fax: +39 081 7684219
                 e-mail: spromano@unina.it
           http://www.comics.unina.it/simonpietro.romano

     <<Molti mi dicono che lo scoraggiamento è l'alibi degli
    idioti. Ci rifletto un istante; e mi scoraggio>>. Magritte.
                          oooO
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~(   )~~ Oooo~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                           \ (    (   )
                            \_)    ) /
                                  (_/



From HKaplan@acmepacket.com  Tue Mar 29 15:56:43 2011
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From: Hadriel Kaplan <HKaplan@acmepacket.com>
To: Thierry Bessis <Thierry.Bessis@alcatel-lucent.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 18:58:15 -0400
Thread-Topic: [dispatch] SIP load balancing
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References: <4D755B9E.6030008@bell-labs.com>	<4D7566C1.40605@cisco.com> <4D756C47.1000509@bell-labs.com> <086e01cbdd4e$6b8188f0$42849ad0$@packetizer.com> <4D7668B9.1020105@alcatel-lucent.com> <004601cbddd2$15b11ab0$41135010$@packetizer.com> <4D77B831.7000404@alcatel-lucent.com> <026f01cbded9$be15f290$3a41d7b0$@packetizer.com> <4D791595.2010703@alcatel-lucent.com> <A11921905DA1564D9BCF64A6430A62390293A694@XMB-BGL-411.cisco.com> <4D7A485E.2080602@alcatel-lucent.com> <A11921905DA1564D9BCF64A6430A623904BE39CC@XMB-BGL-411.cisco.com> <4D80ED57.7030709@alcatel-lucent.com> <A11921905DA1564D9BCF64A6430A62390293A6AD@XMB-BGL-411.cisco.com>, <4D826CC5.9010502@alcatel-lucent.com> <CD5674C3CD99574EBA7432465FC13C1B22246BD344@DC-US1MBEX4.global.avaya.com> <DFC287E5-B0BD-4F1A-B25E-2680E4EEB46A@acmepacket.com> <4D91F7B0.1000006@alcatel-lucent.com>
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No you aren't.  It's a scaled number.  That's a big difference.
Why?  Because it allows the operator to do it either way - they can let all=
 devices start at any number and converge using the algorithm dynamically, =
or they can provision it.

And if they provision it: (1) the number range is large enough that they ca=
n provision it once, and (2) even if they get it wrong or not quite right i=
t converges anyway.  By "provision it once", I mean they don't have to chan=
ge the setting for installed systems when they add new systems of larger ca=
pacities, or if their installed systems decrease in capacity as SIP gets mo=
re chatty (ie, as a single session/call now takes more SIP messages than it=
 did when they first installed the systems, which is a common problem).

-hadriel


On Mar 29, 2011, at 11:16 AM, Thierry Bessis wrote:

Kaplan,

I don't think anyone's proposing to advertise a literal percentage of capac=
ity, for obvious reasons. (ie, the device isn't advertising the numbers 0-1=
00 to mean 0-100%)


Actually we do !  This is what we are doing in our system. (we really are u=
sing a byte [0..255] but it means the exact same thing).
We are dealing with cases where some nodes may have 2-3 times the capacity =
of others due to hardware generation gap. (but not 10 times ... ). we are a=
lso dealing with growing/degrowing, and temporary partial capacity loss: it=
 works well.

But anyway, although in theory the algorithm auto-adjusts in such a case re=
gardless - in practice my guess is the operators of the systems would confi=
gure the literal starting/max-number based on the capacity relative to othe=
r systems, so that you wouldn't really have a case of two systems of very d=
ifferent capacity starting out advertising the same values.


This is also what we are trying to avoid: having the operator need to compa=
re nodes capacity (possibly from different vendors), and come up with compl=
icated engineering rules to configure the weights (rules that additionally =
would need to change each time something is modfied in the network).  All o=
ur nodes advertise about 100% availability when they start, whatever their =
capacity (unless they were also used for other tasks)

Cordially,

Thierry

-hadriel

_______________________________________________
dispatch mailing list
dispatch@ietf.org<mailto:dispatch@ietf.org>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch


--
--
Cordially,
Thierry Bessis
  IMS Solution: Architecture & Product Management - ALTA Member
  Organization: ALU > Carrier group > Wireline BU >  IMS Sol Arch, SE, PdM
[file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/tbessis/My%20Documents/al_corp_h_3d_=
16mm.jpg]
  1960 Lucent Lane - Room 6L-517
  Naperville, IL  60563  U S
  Tel/Fax: +1 630 979 7989
  Corporate IM: tbessis

Engage: https://engage.alcatel-lucent.com/people/tbessis
My Calendar:   www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=3Dnew_frs3175%40yahoo.fr<h=
ttp://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=3Dnew_frs3175%40yahoo.fr>
ALTA Hot Line: http://alta.all.alcatel-lucent.com/hotline

Conference information:
2801 2801 (US):+1 800 771 8734 - (F):+33 800 941 674 - Access Code: 9797989
others countries see: http://all.alcatel-lucent.com/audio

Upcoming planned Business Trip: 12 April - 14 April 2011
Upcoming planned Vacation: None


--_000_8219AFE4B7874CDDB286657565B7129Eacmepacketcom_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode:=
 space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><br></div><div>No you=
 aren't. &nbsp;It's a scaled number. &nbsp;That's a big difference.</div><d=
iv>Why? &nbsp;Because it allows the operator to do it either way - they can=
 let all devices start at any number and converge using the algorithm dynam=
ically, or they can provision it. &nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>And if th=
ey provision it:&nbsp;(1)&nbsp;the number range is large enough that they c=
an provision it once, and (2) even if they get it wrong or not quite right =
it converges anyway. &nbsp;By "provision it once", I mean they don't have t=
o change the setting for installed systems when they add new systems of lar=
ger capacities, or if their installed systems decrease in capacity as SIP g=
ets more chatty (ie, as a single session/call now takes more SIP messages t=
han it did when they first installed the systems, which is a common problem=
).</div><div><br></div><div>-hadriel</div><div><br></div><br><div><div>On M=
ar 29, 2011, at 11:16 AM, Thierry Bessis wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-int=
erchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div bgcolor=3D"#ffffff" text=3D"#000000">
    Kaplan, <br>
    <blockquote cite=3D"mid:DFC287E5-B0BD-4F1A-B25E-2680E4EEB46A@acmepacket=
.com" type=3D"cite">
      <pre wrap=3D"">I don't think anyone's proposing to advertise a litera=
l percentage of capacity, for obvious reasons. (ie, the device isn't advert=
ising the numbers 0-100 to mean 0-100%)
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    Actually we do !&nbsp; This is what we are doing in our system. (we
    really are using a byte [0..255] but it means the exact same thing).<br=
>
    We are dealing with cases where some nodes may have 2-3 times the
    capacity of others due to hardware generation gap. (but not 10 times
    ... ). we are also dealing with growing/degrowing, and temporary
    partial capacity loss: it works well.
    <blockquote cite=3D"mid:DFC287E5-B0BD-4F1A-B25E-2680E4EEB46A@acmepacket=
.com" type=3D"cite">
      <pre wrap=3D"">But anyway, although in theory the algorithm auto-adju=
sts in such a case regardless - in practice my guess is the operators of th=
e systems would configure the literal starting/max-number based on the capa=
city relative to other systems, so that you wouldn't really have a case of =
two systems of very different capacity starting out advertising the same va=
lues.
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    This is also what we are trying to avoid: having the operator need
    to compare nodes capacity (possibly from different vendors), and
    come up with complicated engineering rules to configure the weights
    (rules that additionally would need to change each time something is
    modfied in the network).&nbsp; All our nodes advertise about 100%
    availability when they start, whatever their capacity (unless they
    were also used for other tasks)&nbsp; <br>
    <br>
    Cordially, <br>
    <br>
    Thierry<br>
    <blockquote cite=3D"mid:DFC287E5-B0BD-4F1A-B25E-2680E4EEB46A@acmepacket=
.com" type=3D"cite">
      <pre wrap=3D"">-hadriel

_______________________________________________
dispatch mailing list
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=3D"mailto:dispatch@ietf.org">dis=
patch@ietf.org</a>
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/lis=
tinfo/dispatch">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <div class=3D"moz-signature">-- <br>
     =20
     =20
     =20
      <big style=3D"font-weight: bold;"><big><big><span style=3D"font-famil=
y: French Script MT;">-- <br>
              Cordially, <br>
            </span></big></big></big><big style=3D"font-weight: bold;"><big=
><big><span style=3D"font-family: French Script MT;">Thierry Bessis</span><=
/big></big></big>
      <div> </div>
      <div> </div>
      &nbsp;
      <span style=3D"font-family: Arial;">IMS Solution: Architecture
        &amp; Product Management - ALTA Member</span><br style=3D"font-fami=
ly: Arial;">
      <span style=3D"font-family: Arial;">&nbsp; Organization: ALU &gt; Car=
rier
        group &gt;
        Wireline BU &gt;&nbsp;</span><b> </b>IMS Sol Arch, SE, PdM<br>
      <img style=3D"width: 242px; height: 66px;" alt=3D"Alcatel-Lucent" src=
=3D"file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/tbessis/My%20Documents/al_corp_h_=
3d_16mm.jpg"><br>
      &nbsp;
      <span style=3D"font-family: Arial;"></span><span style=3D"font-family=
:
        Arial;">1960 Lucent Lane - Room 6L-517</span><br style=3D"font-fami=
ly: Arial;">
      <span style=3D"font-family: Arial;">&nbsp; Naperville, IL&nbsp;
        60563&nbsp; U
        S</span><br style=3D"font-family: Arial;">
      <span style=3D"font-family: Arial;">&nbsp; Tel/Fax: +1 630 979 7989</=
span><br style=3D"font-family: Arial;">
      <span style=3D"font-family: Arial;">&nbsp; Corporate IM:
        tbessis</span><br>
      <small><br>
      </small>Engage: <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"https://en=
gage.alcatel-lucent.com/people/tbessis">https://engage.alcatel-lucent.com/p=
eople/tbessis</a><br>
      <small>My Calendar:&nbsp;&nbsp;
        <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=3D"http://www.google.com=
/calendar/embed?src=3Dnew_frs3175%40yahoo.fr">www.google.com/calendar/embed=
?src=3Dnew_frs3175%40yahoo.fr</a><br>
        ALTA Hot Line: <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"http://al=
ta.all.alcatel-lucent.com/hotline">http://alta.all.alcatel-lucent.com/hotli=
ne</a></small><br>
      <br>
      <small>Conference information:<br>
        2801 2801 (US):+1 800 771 8734 - (F):+33 800 941 674 - Access
        Code:
        9797989<br>
        others countries see: <a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"ht=
tp://all.alcatel-lucent.com/audio">http://all.alcatel-lucent.com/audio</a><=
/small><br>
      <br>
      <big style=3D"font-weight: bold;"><big><span style=3D"font-family:
            French Script MT;">Upcoming planned Business Trip:
            12 April - 14 April 2011</span></big></big><br>
      <big style=3D"font-weight: bold;"><big><span style=3D"font-family:
            French Script MT;">Upcoming planned Vacation: None</span></big>=
</big>
    </div>
  </div>

</blockquote></div><br></body></html>=

--_000_8219AFE4B7874CDDB286657565B7129Eacmepacketcom_--

From spromano@unina.it  Wed Mar 30 09:07:58 2011
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Subject: [dispatch] CLUE recording available
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Dear all,

the full recording (synchronized video, audio, slides and jabber room) 
of today's CLUE session is available at the following URL:

http://ietf.conf.meetecho.com

In case of problems with the playout, just drop an e-mail to 
ietf-support@meetecho.com.

Cheers,

Simon

-- 
                             _\\|//_
                             ( O-O )
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~o00~~(_)~~00o~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                     Simon Pietro Romano
               Universita' di Napoli Federico II
                  Computer Science Department
         Phone: +39 081 7683823 -- Fax: +39 081 7684219
                 e-mail: spromano@unina.it
           http://www.comics.unina.it/simonpietro.romano

     <<Molti mi dicono che lo scoraggiamento è l'alibi degli
    idioti. Ci rifletto un istante; e mi scoraggio>>. Magritte.
                          oooO
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~(   )~~ Oooo~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                           \ (    (   )
                            \_)    ) /
                                  (_/



From rjsparks@nostrum.com  Thu Mar 31 02:01:51 2011
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From: Robert Sparks <rjsparks@nostrum.com>
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Subject: [dispatch] Fwd: [sixpac] SIXPAC group not chartered - next steps for the sixpac list
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fyi -

Begin forwarded message:

> From: Robert Sparks <rjsparks@nostrum.com>
> Date: March 31, 2011 10:12:24 AM GMT+02:00
> To: sixpac@ietf.org
> Subject: [sixpac] SIXPAC group not chartered - next steps for the =
sixpac list
>=20
> Folks -
>=20
> Based on the list activity for the last few months and the discussions =
this week, we are not going
> to move forward with chartering a working group for this effort. This =
list will remain open for those
> wishing to continue to discuss these ideas and work on individual =
drafts.
>=20
> RjS
> _______________________________________________
> sixpac mailing list
> sixpac@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sixpac


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<html><head></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">fyi =
-<br><div><br><div>Begin forwarded message:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px;"><span style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica'; =
font-size:medium; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1);"><b>From: </b></span><span =
style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium;">Robert Sparks =
&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rjsparks@nostrum.com">rjsparks@nostrum.com</a>&gt;<br></spa=
n></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: =
0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica'; =
font-size:medium; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1);"><b>Date: </b></span><span =
style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium;">March 31, 2011 =
10:12:24 AM GMT+02:00<br></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span =
style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, =
1);"><b>To: </b></span><span style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica'; =
font-size:medium;"><a =
href=3D"mailto:sixpac@ietf.org">sixpac@ietf.org</a><br></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px;"><span style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica'; =
font-size:medium; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1);"><b>Subject: </b></span><span =
style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica'; font-size:medium;"><b>[sixpac] SIXPAC =
group not chartered - next steps for the sixpac =
list</b><br></span></div><br><div>Folks -<br><br>Based on the list =
activity for the last few months and the discussions this week, we are =
not going<br>to move forward with chartering a working group for this =
effort. This list will remain open for those<br>wishing to continue to =
discuss these ideas and work on individual =
drafts.<br><br>RjS<br>_______________________________________________<br>s=
ixpac mailing list<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:sixpac@ietf.org">sixpac@ietf.org</a><br>https://www.ietf.or=
g/mailman/listinfo/sixpac<br></div></blockquote></div><br></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail-66--1015024056--

From christer.holmberg@ericsson.com  Thu Mar 31 06:29:20 2011
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From: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
To: "rtc-web@alvestrand.no" <rtc-web@alvestrand.no>, "dispatch@ietf.org" <dispatch@ietf.org>
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 15:30:55 +0200
Thread-Topic: IETF#80: RTCWEB BoF notes
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Subject: [dispatch] IETF#80: RTCWEB BoF notes
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Hi,

Below are my notes from the RTCWEB BoF.

Regards,

Christer

---------------

Collaboration with W3C:
--------------------------

- It was noted that while IETF has the network expertise, W3C has the API e=
xpertise, and that collaboration between the group is important.
- It was indicated, as there are people active in both IETF and W3C, it is =
better to rely on active collaboration driven by individuals, rather than s=
ending liaisons between the SDOs.
- Is was questioned whether IETF and W3C have different IPR policies.
- It was indicated that the security model also needs to be defined in coll=
aboration with W3C, as there are web security aspects that IETF might not h=
ave good knowledge of.
- There was a question whether document produced by IETF and W3C needs to b=
e approved by both SDOs. It was indicated that hopefully there will not be =
a need for both groups to formally approve documents of the other group, bu=
t each SDO should follow and review the work of the other group.
- It was commented that we might need to establish a collaboration also wit=
h the WHAT WG, rather than relying on W3C for the WHAT WG collaboration.


Use-cases and requirements:
-----------------------------

Presenter: Christer Holmberg

- The presenter indicated that we need to, in order to produce API requirem=
ents, agree on the functional split between the browser and the web-app.
- The presenter indicated that NAT/FW traversal also contains a mechanism t=
o perform media fallback (e.g. HTTP fallback).


RTC-Web Framework:
-------------------------

Presenter: Jonathan Rosenberg

- The presenter indicated that, as the browser and web-app in most cases ar=
e produced by different organizations, we should look at the API between th=
e browser and web-app as a protocol.
- It was commented that we need to be careful with terminology, as an API d=
oes not dictate a protocol.
- It was commented that the API should not be too complex for web applicati=
on. It was suggested that the API might have different levels of complexity=
.
- It was indicated that the browser application itself might not implement =
the features it offers to the web-app. Some features might also be offered =
by the OS, where the broswer simply provides access to those features to th=
e web-app.


Web Security:
---------------

Presenter: Eric Rescorla

- The following security areas, related to rtc-web, were identified:
-- Media remote peer verification.
-- Access to local device.
-- Communication security.
- There was a comment that identity also needs to be covered. However, in a=
ll use-cases identity might not be needed, or even desired.
- It was questioned how we can prevent an application, claiming to be a bro=
wser, from sending date before getting consent. It was indicated that such =
scenario is outside the scope of the WG.


Negotiation and Extensibility
----------------------------

Presenter: Cullen Jennings

- The presenter indicated that the solution must be extendible, and it must=
 provide a mechanism which allows the negotiation of different features.
- It was indicated that full legacy interoperability might not be possible,=
 mostly due to security constraints, without intermediary functions on the =
media plane.
- It was indicated that the WG needs to decide on the level on legacy inter=
operability.


Charter:
--------
- A large number of individuals had read the proposed charter text.
- There was a question whether document produced by IETF and W3C needs to b=
e approved by both SDOs. It was indicated that hopefully there will not be =
a need for both groups to formally approve documents of the other group, bu=
t each SDO should follow and review the work of the other group.
- It was commented that the charter does not talk about legacy interoperabi=
lity.
- It was commented that none of the presentations have described the handli=
ng of non-RTP connections. It was indicated that the MG might want to consi=
der sending also non-audio/video data over RTP.
- It was commented that the charter should not contain a list of features t=
hat might be added to the charter at a later point.

Poll:
-----

- Willingness to review documents: approx 50-60 individuals.
- Willingness to write and provide text to documents: approx 24 individuals=
.=

From R.Jesske@telekom.de  Thu Mar 31 09:19:32 2011
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To: <dispatch@ietf.org>
Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 18:21:05 +0200
Thread-Topic: New Version of draft-jesske-dispatch-update3326-reason-responses-02 
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Dear all,
please be informed that I have uploaded a new version of draft-jesske-dispa=
tch-update3326-reason-responses-02

http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-jesske-dispatch-update3326-reason-responses-02=
.txt

Comments are welcome

Best Regards

Roland



> -----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: IETF I-D Submission Tool [mailto:idsubmission@ietf.org]
> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 31. M=E4rz 2011 18:15
> An: Jesske, Roland
> Cc: Laura.Liess@telekom.de
> Betreff: New Version Notification for
> draft-jesske-dispatch-update3326-reason-responses-02
>
>
> A new version of I-D,
> draft-jesske-dispatch-update3326-reason-responses-02.txt has
> been successfully submitted by Roland Jesske and posted to
> the IETF repository.
>
> Filename:      draft-jesske-dispatch-update3326-reason-responses
> Revision:      02
> Title:                 Reason header filed in Session
> Initiation Protocol (SIP) responses
> Creation_date:         2011-03-31
> WG ID:                 Independent Submission
> Number_of_pages: 5
>
> Abstract:
> This document updates the Reason mechanism defined within RFC3326.
>
>
>
>
> The IETF Secretariat.
>
>
>

From fluffy@cisco.com  Thu Mar 31 09:45:24 2011
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--Apple-Mail-2--987210070
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Forwarding this on behalf of Dale. 

Begin forwarded message:

> From: Dale Worley <dworley@avaya.com>
> Date: March 31, 2011 6:30:53 PM GMT+02:00
> To: Cullen Jennings <fluffy@cisco.com>
> Subject: RE: [dispatch] SIP load balancing
> 
> I think there has been a problem sending this message, so I am resending it
> for a second time.
> 
> Dale
> ________________________________________
> From: Worley, Dale R (Dale)
> Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2011 4:21 AM
> To: dispatch@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [dispatch] SIP load balancing
> 
> I have been arguing that load balancing algorithms have more
> complicated behavior than people have been allowing for, and that
> therefore the analysis needed before adopting a load balancing system
> is more extensive than people think.
> 
> As a demonstration, I have written a spreadsheet that simulates the
> behavior of the current proposed scheme and adjusted the parameters
> for a situation where the offered load is 90% of capacity:
> 
>    There are two servers, one that can handle 100 calls and one that can
>    handle 10 calls.
> 
>    The offered load is 5 calls per time unit.  The calls have lifetimes
>    that have an exponential distribution with an average lifetime of 20
>    time units, and so in any time unit, 1/20 of the calls in the system
>    are cleared.  Thus, the steady-state of the system has 100 calls in
>    the system.
> 
>    In steady-state, the system operates at 90% of total capacity.
> 
>    Calls are treated as infinitely divisible, so there is no statistical
>    fluctuation in the loads.
> 
> The spreadsheet is attached to this e-mail, and is also available at
> http://theworld.com/~worley/load1.ods
> It is in ODF format, which is an open standard, and can be read by
> both OpenOffice and Excel.
> 
> The computations involved are incorporated into the spreadsheet, and
> you can change the spreadsheet to calculate the results under
> different assumptions.
> 
> In the selected case, one server has 10 times the capacity of the
> other server, and the system is offered 90% of the load that it can
> process.  Naively, one expects that a good load balancing scheme would
> split the load so that both servers are at about 90% of capacity, and
> that the load is split in approximately a 90%-10% proportion.
> 
> As you can see from the simulation, the steady-state has the load
> split 87.8-9.9, which is close to 90%-10%, but it does not load both
> servers at about 90% capacity -- server 1 is at 88% capacity but
> server 2 is at 99% capacity.
> 
> Dale

--Apple-Mail-2--987210070
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Cullen Jennings
For corporate legal information go to:
http://www.cisco.com/web/about/doing_business/legal/cri/index.html



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