From nobody Sun Mar 1 09:57:08 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1E4C3A0A25 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 2020 09:57:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.079 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.079 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bc-htfdXoOM7 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 2020 09:56:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B8D8D3A0A24 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 2020 09:56:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.127.239] (mta-70-120-123-175.stx.rr.com [70.120.123.175] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 021Husgl046057 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 1 Mar 2020 11:56:56 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1583085416; bh=iL2lP7xjVno0akwmj4GwfvJkPScN699+WUnDXAZzs1o=; h=From:Subject:Date:References:To:In-Reply-To; b=oKDqtiwxktcjyUp1v/d1EfBTS+fCWcIHWbSUBJYr5G+OIj0RW35lrKTHSNeo3GfDz thX4Ur3SBQb1TuOUHoXRyKvl31m/n7AO/YVeFeUIMoZrCp7EPuQsab3uFQTFzyNIwV jIQ6JfUFxwsPEFhvktpKyGe5uUxm1eAcPBeZ4T9I= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host mta-70-120-123-175.stx.rr.com [70.120.123.175] (may be forged) claimed to be [192.168.127.239] From: Ben Campbell Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_94DBE942-551A-4288-91BD-D205A2729494"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.60.0.2.5\)) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 11:56:48 -0600 References: To: dispatch@ietf.org In-Reply-To: Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.60.0.2.5) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] [BACKGROUND] Request for Dispatch to discuss steps forward on email security issues. X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2020 17:57:06 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_94DBE942-551A-4288-91BD-D205A2729494 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Everyone, Do any of our email experts have thoughts on Michael=E2=80=99s proposal = and/or the drafts? Thanks! Ben. > On Feb 12, 2020, at 6:18 PM, Michael Peddemors = wrote: >=20 > For those that monitor other IETF lists, you may be aware that we were = soliciting support for a "Birds of a Feather" surrounding issues that = face the Internet today related to "Email Security". >=20 > * BEC (Business Email Compromise) are now the largest single factor in = damage reported insurance claims. > * Email Compromises lead to higher rates of Ransomware, phishing, = spear > phishing > * Email compromise may lead theft of other resources (domain = resets/transfers, banking password resets etc) > * High number of email clients and servers that still allow = transmission > of unencrypted credentials. Reluctance of operators to deprecate. > * Auto Discovery Methods may preferentially try insecure methods, > exposing credentials > * POP Connectors maybe inadvertently leaking credentials >=20 > Several initiatives have been pushed forward, and several discussions, = however it is not yet in a form that has clear enough definitions to = decide on whether the requirements for addressing this within the IETF, = dictate the formation of a new working group, or a re-purposing of = existing ones, or expanding their mandates. >=20 > In our case, we are pushing forward on trying to make our proposals = around CLIENTID extensions to both SMTP AUTH and IMAP, and that crosses = boundaries of existing working groups. >=20 > It is my contention, that there are enough topics around email = security in general, that while maybe first a BOF should be formed to = clarify the > scope of such discussions, a working group be formed to solve these > serious issues. >=20 > And while we continue to see adoption of our SMTP AUTH and IMAP = CLIENTID extensions, as outlined in our RFC Drafts, we would like to see = this > become a standard, so it is more readily accepted and adopted by all = email clients and servers. >=20 > This will take a working group that can encompass email security in a = larger scope, than WG's only concerned with singular protocols. >=20 > Topics for Discussion - >=20 > * How/if/when should POP/IMAP/SMTPAUTH credentials being sent = unencrypted be stopped? > * Should we deprecate language in RFC's that permit unencrypted? > * Common standards for AutoDiscovery methods for email clients > (No AutoDiscovery is bad as well, as it encourages insecure) > * Advantages of using an extension to IMAP/SMTP AUTH to allow > for a TOKEN that can be used as part of a two factor authentication > * Are there other authenticaton systems that would benefit as well? > * Why CLIENTID is better as an extension to the protocol, than a SASL > implementation? >=20 > Some other ideas have also be floated, that is best suited to a = working group with a wide enough scope to encompass these issues. >=20 > Given that we are NOT holding a BOF in Vancouver, it is suggested that = we petition for time to be held in the DISPATCH session in Vancouver to = discuss these things. >=20 > -- Michael -- >=20 > PS, we can still have a BOB ('BOF over Beers') session for those who = are interested. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > -- > "Catch the Magic of Linux..." > = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Michael Peddemors, President/CEO LinuxMagic Inc. > Visit us at http://www.linuxmagic.com @linuxmagic > A Wizard IT Company - For More Info http://www.wizard.ca > "LinuxMagic" a Registered TradeMark of Wizard Tower TechnoServices = Ltd. > = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > 604-682-0300 Beautiful British Columbia, Canada >=20 > This email and any electronic data contained are confidential and = intended > solely for the use of the individual or entity to which they are = addressed. > Please note that any views or opinions presented in this email are = solely > those of the author and are not intended to represent those of the = company. >=20 > _______________________________________________ > dispatch mailing list > dispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch --Apple-Mail=_94DBE942-551A-4288-91BD-D205A2729494 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEExW9rpd7ez4DexOFOgFZKbJXz1A0FAl5b92AACgkQgFZKbJXz 1A1/5A//brVNGoEUbBl8I0CGAB+KMXHtlpxSzYfH0vmc5g/zcuWsy4kc4USD91xo eUuToCGQ1hs4yP1LRsYauGNV4q/6+QneutUFV1LXFJG0uhjlzyTURQIsKMMU4n5F bRdtALyuTbUklNDKEeFmcZyMMplouJKe+8Ett4TbpkEXTYPz9/agx9DjUM9DzUQv nNxoX0C+WLGiNzzqPpinzrOB1zme7xBqhmbyXB0VdM3sMfxuuq18yKMjqEOlod/I bGud0Vhdzmp96XV0qyrmO4FB3wBayFjV8y5u7Ty9U8wVcaPJKIZuuqQ9dez0j+2/ znrjGT+qRpbej7IPLgnCh8P2mwse1rpwfAJZIGPOyndrb7uxzaLJYd+4X3MAmiAL drN5vhcOOjI2qp46x7HfIri8EXSAIlIk2dWRjFY58aBzJQ5mnMC0zpHGPQ0snwis bfsApMF+D1Uv1KUGggAvn/rzNDxnXKzMfKniSjUlAmQ3BlD7pHCNNPMP19drYyg2 ONKED0WAXEB9JI2sU6Gz1LQTwrdbMX4hVtg3mJSz7b+ePa6YzK1voHD8OmgCHRjF v4KaBb70jgCgIyFJTIyvm4JrzCWyI1xC1ZqQKXYHLwWvhKPebSdyg+B0HyhnKJuk 0YTGwgfid2Nf9URZC+9p+WZIUTPSp/qfenhHOwblk3SqIUfLVMg= =XnyN -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_94DBE942-551A-4288-91BD-D205A2729494-- From nobody Mon Mar 2 07:41:10 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39DFD3A0941 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 2020 07:41:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GNCGjZJsMyUV for ; Mon, 2 Mar 2020 07:41:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.smeinc.net (mail.smeinc.net [209.135.209.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3B0EA3A093D for ; Mon, 2 Mar 2020 07:41:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A85A8300B48 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 2020 10:41:02 -0500 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mail.smeinc.net Received: from mail.smeinc.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.smeinc.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id OfR8FOcIwsY0 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 2020 10:40:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from a860b60074bd.fios-router.home (pool-108-51-198-163.washdc.fios.verizon.net [108.51.198.163]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9074B300A2E; Mon, 2 Mar 2020 10:40:59 -0500 (EST) From: Russ Housley Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_B78E7C2F-9D1F-4C91-BE3A-13F54741583B" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2020 10:41:01 -0500 References: Cc: michael@linuxmagic.com To: dispatch@ietf.org Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] [BACKGROUND] Request for Dispatch to discuss steps forward on email security issues. X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2020 15:41:09 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_B78E7C2F-9D1F-4C91-BE3A-13F54741583B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Michael: A digital signature on email would really go a very long way in these = areas. Of course, the hard part there is getting a certificate for use = with S/MIME. The ACME WG is working on some things that should really = lower the bar on that. Maybe we should add some energy there to get it = done. Russ > From: Ben Campbell > > Subject: Re: [dispatch] [BACKGROUND] Request for Dispatch to discuss = steps forward on email security issues. > Date: March 1, 2020 at 11:56:48 AM CST > To: dispatch@ietf.org >=20 > Hi Everyone, >=20 > Do any of our email experts have thoughts on Michael=E2=80=99s = proposal and/or the drafts? >=20 > Thanks! >=20 > Ben. >=20 >> On Feb 12, 2020, at 6:18 PM, Michael Peddemors = > wrote: >>=20 >> For those that monitor other IETF lists, you may be aware that we = were soliciting support for a "Birds of a Feather" surrounding issues = that face the Internet today related to "Email Security". >>=20 >> * BEC (Business Email Compromise) are now the largest single factor = in damage reported insurance claims. >> * Email Compromises lead to higher rates of Ransomware, phishing, = spear >> phishing >> * Email compromise may lead theft of other resources (domain = resets/transfers, banking password resets etc) >> * High number of email clients and servers that still allow = transmission >> of unencrypted credentials. Reluctance of operators to deprecate. >> * Auto Discovery Methods may preferentially try insecure methods, >> exposing credentials >> * POP Connectors maybe inadvertently leaking credentials >>=20 >> Several initiatives have been pushed forward, and several = discussions, however it is not yet in a form that has clear enough = definitions to decide on whether the requirements for addressing this = within the IETF, dictate the formation of a new working group, or a = re-purposing of existing ones, or expanding their mandates. >>=20 >> In our case, we are pushing forward on trying to make our proposals = around CLIENTID extensions to both SMTP AUTH and IMAP, and that crosses = boundaries of existing working groups. >>=20 >> It is my contention, that there are enough topics around email = security in general, that while maybe first a BOF should be formed to = clarify the >> scope of such discussions, a working group be formed to solve these >> serious issues. >>=20 >> And while we continue to see adoption of our SMTP AUTH and IMAP = CLIENTID extensions, as outlined in our RFC Drafts, we would like to see = this >> become a standard, so it is more readily accepted and adopted by all = email clients and servers. >>=20 >> This will take a working group that can encompass email security in a = larger scope, than WG's only concerned with singular protocols. >>=20 >> Topics for Discussion - >>=20 >> * How/if/when should POP/IMAP/SMTPAUTH credentials being sent = unencrypted be stopped? >> * Should we deprecate language in RFC's that permit unencrypted? >> * Common standards for AutoDiscovery methods for email clients >> (No AutoDiscovery is bad as well, as it encourages insecure) >> * Advantages of using an extension to IMAP/SMTP AUTH to allow >> for a TOKEN that can be used as part of a two factor authentication >> * Are there other authenticaton systems that would benefit as well? >> * Why CLIENTID is better as an extension to the protocol, than a SASL >> implementation? >>=20 >> Some other ideas have also be floated, that is best suited to a = working group with a wide enough scope to encompass these issues. >>=20 >> Given that we are NOT holding a BOF in Vancouver, it is suggested = that we petition for time to be held in the DISPATCH session in = Vancouver to discuss these things. >>=20 >> -- Michael -- >>=20 >> PS, we can still have a BOB ('BOF over Beers') session for those who = are interested. --Apple-Mail=_B78E7C2F-9D1F-4C91-BE3A-13F54741583B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Michael:

A digital signature on email would really go a very long way = in these areas.  Of course, the hard part there is getting a = certificate for use with S/MIME.  The ACME WG is working on some = things that should really lower the bar on that.  Maybe we should = add some energy there to get it done.

Russ


From: Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>
Subject: Re: [dispatch] [BACKGROUND] Request for Dispatch to discuss = steps forward on email security issues.
Date: = March 1, 2020 at 11:56:48 AM = CST
To: = dispatch@ietf.org

Hi= Everyone,

Do any = of our email experts have thoughts on Michael=E2=80=99s proposal and/or = the drafts?

Thanks!

Ben.

On Feb 12, 2020, at 6:18 PM, Michael Peddemors <michael@linuxmagic.com> wrote:

For those that monitor other IETF lists, you may be aware = that we were soliciting support for a "Birds of a Feather" surrounding = issues that face the Internet today related to "Email Security".

* BEC (Business Email Compromise) are now the = largest single factor in damage reported insurance claims.
*= Email Compromises lead to higher rates of Ransomware, phishing, = spear
phishing
* Email compromise may lead = theft of other resources (domain resets/transfers, banking password = resets etc)
* High number of email clients and servers = that still allow transmission
of unencrypted credentials. =  Reluctance of operators to deprecate.
* Auto = Discovery Methods may preferentially try insecure methods,
= exposing credentials
* POP Connectors maybe inadvertently = leaking credentials

Several initiatives = have been pushed forward, and several discussions, however it is not yet = in a form that has clear enough definitions to decide on whether the = requirements for addressing this within the IETF, dictate the formation = of a new working group, or a re-purposing of existing ones, or expanding = their mandates.

In our case, we are pushing = forward on trying to make our proposals around CLIENTID extensions to = both SMTP AUTH and IMAP, and that crosses boundaries of existing working = groups.

It is my contention, that there are = enough topics around email security in general, that while maybe first a = BOF should be formed to clarify the
scope of such = discussions, a working group be formed to solve these
serious issues.

And while we = continue to see adoption of our SMTP AUTH and IMAP CLIENTID extensions, = as outlined in our RFC Drafts, we would like to see this
become a standard, so it is more readily accepted and adopted = by all email clients and servers.

This will = take a working group that can encompass email security in a larger = scope, than WG's only concerned with singular protocols.
Topics for Discussion -

* = How/if/when should POP/IMAP/SMTPAUTH credentials being sent unencrypted = be stopped?
* Should we deprecate language in RFC's that = permit unencrypted?
* Common standards for AutoDiscovery = methods for email clients
(No AutoDiscovery is bad as = well, as it encourages insecure)
* Advantages of using an = extension to IMAP/SMTP AUTH to allow
for a TOKEN that can = be used as part of a two factor authentication
* Are there = other authenticaton systems that would benefit as well?
* = Why CLIENTID is better as an extension to the protocol, than a SASL
implementation?

Some other = ideas have also be floated, that is best suited to a working group with = a wide enough scope to encompass these issues.

Given that we are NOT holding a BOF in Vancouver, it is = suggested that we petition for time to be held in the DISPATCH session = in Vancouver to discuss these things.

-- = Michael --

PS, we can still have a BOB = ('BOF over Beers') session for those who are interested.

= --Apple-Mail=_B78E7C2F-9D1F-4C91-BE3A-13F54741583B-- From nobody Mon Mar 2 09:47:25 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 411653A0DEC for ; Mon, 2 Mar 2020 09:47:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.85 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.85 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=KqC1rQGb; dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=NENR+tp8 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Sfr2YdxzXPRg for ; Mon, 2 Mar 2020 09:47:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 13C653A0DF6 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 2020 09:47:18 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 68636 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2020 17:47:16 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=10c1a.5e5d46a4.k2003; bh=YzZzIhh8jNkDM8W8HA1fiq7OdL3PxnRbfYw3hmGwQeI=; b=KqC1rQGbw9pqzucAG5YR8YXlCXLDr9+fLTAYRU4omq8BTKGa7kIBmAvLrQKzHluCIBxUE85O27XYfds32FY9azmcNFFL7lkaitKhtYC/Vy6pthMPtzlCx/86DC1fMz8HGKy/VO15hVXHq9DLmeQGPu+QEGo9B51dlTbobGBwkQ9IdIwo89ThEY2bSsN2qyvEOPOCgKg2PT0nbpW8CHuZkrRgWesgmdZQa4WGUDvBmCdAf4ht6cQYs1OQnLPOUZvI DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=10c1a.5e5d46a4.k2003; bh=YzZzIhh8jNkDM8W8HA1fiq7OdL3PxnRbfYw3hmGwQeI=; b=NENR+tp8dxa0r2YSDpZmZr8yKunSDXB6hHdhDn5mU6C1/YJTQd0ays9Pn6sR2FAsIvDREepKtD00lDSLdW3CyeanM7QMS/wWRhs7+YyL2V5rGqMoJ62/RzmQBJ8LfFDeQyhlMsWwK+rPRHo9uvpMqdECEamTft59w5LFtYKUQinVLekkY1t1NUtnnx8Uky68L/QORiAXpGe3eLyFP/ilNvG+k6B2lQPWoOQ1Uq+50FvVBkdsW5ima2suYpCyPccj Received: from ary.qy ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTP via TCP6; 02 Mar 2020 17:47:16 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id 0AB321537ABD; Mon, 2 Mar 2020 12:47:15 -0500 (EST) Date: 2 Mar 2020 12:47:15 -0500 Message-Id: <20200302174716.0AB321537ABD@ary.qy> From: "John Levine" To: dispatch@ietf.org In-Reply-To: Organization: Taughannock Networks X-Headerized: yes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] [BACKGROUND] Request for Dispatch to discuss steps forward on email security issues. X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2020 17:47:24 -0000 In article you write: >-=-=-=-=-=- > >Michael: > >A digital signature on email would really go a very long way in these areas. Of course, the hard part there is getting a certificate for >use with S/MIME. The ACME WG is working on some things that should really lower the bar on that. Maybe we should add some energy there to >get it done. We have DKIM, which has proven to scale a lot better than S/MIME. I don't think there's much practical difference between a DKIM signature and an ACME S/MIME signature. The latter can detect one user within a domain impersonating another, but that's never been much of a problem. In any event, I believe Mike's proposal is more about securing the user account to make it harder for bad guys to impersonate users via account compromise. I'm not sure this is the right list of technical issues but it's certainly a topic worth some attention. R's, John >> From: Ben Campbell > >> Subject: Re: [dispatch] [BACKGROUND] Request for Dispatch to discuss steps forward on email security issues. >> Date: March 1, 2020 at 11:56:48 AM CST >> To: dispatch@ietf.org >> >> Hi Everyone, >> >> Do any of our email experts have thoughts on Michael’s proposal and/or the drafts? >> >> Thanks! >> >> Ben. >> >>> On Feb 12, 2020, at 6:18 PM, Michael Peddemors > wrote: >>> >>> For those that monitor other IETF lists, you may be aware that we were soliciting support for a "Birds of a Feather" surrounding issues >that face the Internet today related to "Email Security". >>> >>> * BEC (Business Email Compromise) are now the largest single factor in damage reported insurance claims. >>> * Email Compromises lead to higher rates of Ransomware, phishing, spear >>> phishing >>> * Email compromise may lead theft of other resources (domain resets/transfers, banking password resets etc) >>> * High number of email clients and servers that still allow transmission >>> of unencrypted credentials. Reluctance of operators to deprecate. >>> * Auto Discovery Methods may preferentially try insecure methods, >>> exposing credentials >>> * POP Connectors maybe inadvertently leaking credentials >>> >>> Several initiatives have been pushed forward, and several discussions, however it is not yet in a form that has clear enough definitions >to decide on whether the requirements for addressing this within the IETF, dictate the formation of a new working group, or a re-purposing >of existing ones, or expanding their mandates. >>> >>> In our case, we are pushing forward on trying to make our proposals around CLIENTID extensions to both SMTP AUTH and IMAP, and that >crosses boundaries of existing working groups. >>> >>> It is my contention, that there are enough topics around email security in general, that while maybe first a BOF should be formed to clarify the >>> scope of such discussions, a working group be formed to solve these >>> serious issues. >>> >>> And while we continue to see adoption of our SMTP AUTH and IMAP CLIENTID extensions, as outlined in our RFC Drafts, we would like to see this >>> become a standard, so it is more readily accepted and adopted by all email clients and servers. >>> >>> This will take a working group that can encompass email security in a larger scope, than WG's only concerned with singular protocols. >>> >>> Topics for Discussion - >>> >>> * How/if/when should POP/IMAP/SMTPAUTH credentials being sent unencrypted be stopped? >>> * Should we deprecate language in RFC's that permit unencrypted? >>> * Common standards for AutoDiscovery methods for email clients >>> (No AutoDiscovery is bad as well, as it encourages insecure) >>> * Advantages of using an extension to IMAP/SMTP AUTH to allow >>> for a TOKEN that can be used as part of a two factor authentication >>> * Are there other authenticaton systems that would benefit as well? >>> * Why CLIENTID is better as an extension to the protocol, than a SASL >>> implementation? >>> >>> Some other ideas have also be floated, that is best suited to a working group with a wide enough scope to encompass these issues. >>> >>> Given that we are NOT holding a BOF in Vancouver, it is suggested that we petition for time to be held in the DISPATCH session in >Vancouver to discuss these things. >>> >>> -- Michael -- >>> >>> PS, we can still have a BOB ('BOF over Beers') session for those who are interested. > > >-=-=-=-=-=- >[Alternative: text/html] >-=-=-=-=-=- From nobody Mon Mar 2 11:54:30 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1D783A1003 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 2020 11:54:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=peabody-io.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vi3d6e-MsGMi for ; Mon, 2 Mar 2020 11:54:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pj1-x1034.google.com (mail-pj1-x1034.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1034]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 707A63A0FF9 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 2020 11:54:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pj1-x1034.google.com with SMTP id 12so236785pjb.5 for ; Mon, 02 Mar 2020 11:54:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=peabody-io.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:content-language; bh=ujzsnshfGsQg1vXcJU/9xvP1yEbrfqV6AH9jl5JbBo4=; b=kNSSnJ3oea/aE/2xbF91/s8U+wNk6+cckyl3sCPRu9IIim+XmDtWkWCtsEa80Z0lFA 2qbQNTPLUN3alukBNXNGQzSPpuWaqK7TBj/rYSYUKZnxIdU1BmFc/cyl9lI0xmtlJCov piVTwS9ZNYGeCG6RbAO8t0zqULzHuFIzS04ePBlIV029YQghtKovihU8pLvAARJNz/rl +NDl6owIb9LnKYHJKAnMS2O6UhMrNYNTK2O9tXUfCUz/CasAb6TO0yQ9LPiUVvwiQBlh OKm7WeZtQZxUCDBKkIH6B4qQSaO4iq49fC78Bz1V/XNFTcRx7tuaD2ZVECvX7bBg6LBI fwQw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding :content-language; bh=ujzsnshfGsQg1vXcJU/9xvP1yEbrfqV6AH9jl5JbBo4=; b=bwhRuJ6Wwzc5PUT38pBhJZwgGT2Vjg9Uc+PsGjRmPnimZHs2f860YL7kSFaBBAxm2j QrlXvubAenW9UZxvwbrC+QzJWF9UA2sg2cFsM96qLu46Oi6wp9svKL8g4EBPxXcnIvWk WIIzXi0r/Nik/SC66iJdh9bd0vrZPXMhfyGYfPKSPXllxdgRNFCTI+VS3IlDOYdWfsoo bJxNMmevd6W6SN3eqpiyxMUn+/0VfFCowuBzQak4xRSth9BB3aEAyXsTrvzWeIxInp8P FhQ2IjQmzbKYesEXxVvAsleoonTB7Zs94G33mHYhL0cvpGBFjNFAV2Ji36j0QweQzStm srhA== X-Gm-Message-State: ANhLgQ3jo3KqU1lBsWkZpk7ICYJ1WfJhVUdqYKiT9/Z8uyHSvqQ3fkyV w2Xg4t0IjLp2R9+s3ttRHRkPyeYTD9nb X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADFU+vucck9oBlzqL7kS/kLMflP4fSEz/4k5m9nb7s3DWY7pGqR08YHjGuD7QJZ92AO0Le9TP/2Ynw== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:cb88:: with SMTP id a8mr112203pju.86.1583178864407; Mon, 02 Mar 2020 11:54:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from BGPMacBookPro.charter.com ([2600:6c50:7f:5954:b946:a847:aee9:f2cb]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 7sm10265733pfg.12.2020.03.02.11.54.23 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 02 Mar 2020 11:54:24 -0800 (PST) To: "Dale R. Worley" Cc: dispatch@ietf.org, rick@openfortress.nl References: <87tv3a9hjo.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> From: Brad Peabody Message-ID: <2b167f97-b380-2701-d1fd-e6f72d15f9a3@peabody.io> Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2020 11:54:22 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <87tv3a9hjo.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] UUID Version 6 Proposal X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2020 19:54:28 -0000 Thanks Dale.  This first draft was intended to clearly outline the problem, since the initial feedback I received on this idea from general mailing list could be summarized as "why do we need this". I agree with your point though, it needs more detail.  I will make it my next step on this to outline the specific fields.  Even if I refer to RFC 4122 I think summarizing what goes where in this document makes good sense. Best, Brad On 2/28/20 7:52 PM, Dale R. Worley wrote: > Brad Peabody writes: >> I recently submitted a draft proposal to update the UUID specification. >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-peabody-dispatch-new-uuid-format/ > The proposal sounds good to me. But upon skimming the document, I don't > see any single place where it asserts how this format of UUID is created > -- what the fields are and how their values are determined. You talk > about it but you don't specify it. Now I think you can do it by > referring to the figure in section 4.1.2 of RFC 4122 and detailing > exactly what goes in the fields it lists. > > Dale ---- On 2/29/20 1:08 AM, Rick van Rein wrote: > I'm not convinced that more syntax is helpful; 128 bits suffice for > global uniqueness, say cryptography and the net's experience. A dense > enough notation should make this usable, and I think effort would be > better spent towards compression. In the example above, the node > identities might follow a variable-bits scheme to which the clock > resolution responds or, as described above, the time/orderno may help to > decide how many of the low bits count as a node identity. > This point went back and forth previously on the general mailing list.  The conclusion I've come to is that if the binary layout changes in an incompatible way then it's not a UUID.  And while this is an option, it's undoubtedly going to add more time and complexity to the standardization process.  There are many existing non-UUID random value generation schemes out there (e.g. ULID https://github.com/ulid/spec). It's difficult to say which one(s) should or shouldn't be standardized.  My perspective on this is that since we already have UUIDs as an RFC, and people are already using them as database keys and running into the problems outlined in the existing draft, why not propose an incremental change to resolve these issues. There are lots of details in the binary layout that are pretty much moot when it comes to using the UUID after it is generated. Few if any UUID implementations look at the clock sequence or node fields as anything except opaque bytes.  So the changes I'm proposing to the binary data will be compatible with the vast majority of existing software. It's true that the text representation is a big change.  But I don't think it is a fundamentally incompatible one.  Existing software storing UUIDs in binary can continue to function as-is, but then when some layer of the code wants to put the UUID in a URL they can do so in a standard and more compact way.  The rest the software can continue to function as-is.  Not so if the binary layout is changed in an incompatible way (such as using BER or providing variable lengths, etc.) From nobody Mon Mar 2 14:48:48 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D587C3A133B for ; Mon, 2 Mar 2020 14:48:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id C7FzGviAM2K1 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 2020 14:48:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.smeinc.net (mail.smeinc.net [209.135.209.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B16D93A1339 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 2020 14:48:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF815300B4C for ; Mon, 2 Mar 2020 17:48:41 -0500 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mail.smeinc.net Received: from mail.smeinc.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.smeinc.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id UUsMFrTmomXc for ; Mon, 2 Mar 2020 17:48:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from a860b60074bd.fios-router.home (pool-108-51-198-163.washdc.fios.verizon.net [108.51.198.163]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C66123004C0; Mon, 2 Mar 2020 17:48:38 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Russ Housley In-Reply-To: <20200302174716.0AB321537ABD@ary.qy> Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2020 17:48:39 -0500 Cc: dispatch@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <684F5CCE-22AD-408C-B9E1-AAC1ACDFC632@vigilsec.com> References: <20200302174716.0AB321537ABD@ary.qy> To: John Levine X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] [BACKGROUND] Request for Dispatch to discuss steps forward on email security issues. X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2020 22:48:47 -0000 John: >> A digital signature on email would really go a very long way in these = areas. Of course, the hard part there is getting a certificate for >> use with S/MIME. The ACME WG is working on some things that should = really lower the bar on that. Maybe we should add some energy there to >> get it done. >=20 > [Snip] > In any event, I believe Mike's proposal is more about securing the > user account to make it harder for bad guys to impersonate users via > account compromise. I'm not sure this is the right list of technical > issues but it's certainly a topic worth some attention. I would expect compromise of an account to be different than compromise = of a user's private signature key. That is why I think S/MIME = signatures raise the bar. Russ= From nobody Mon Mar 2 15:17:45 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5533B3A139F for ; Mon, 2 Mar 2020 15:17:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=ZgWnZAXF; dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=ZNiTqq6Z Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id p58ulvD83YVv for ; Mon, 2 Mar 2020 15:17:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A4F323A13A1 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 2020 15:17:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 29808 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2020 23:17:41 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:user-agent; s=746e.5e5d9415.k2003; i=johnl-iecc.com@submit.iecc.com; bh=n+mBqE79ZHI4VYQFVDYaYw4hwch1+xy05DchZN+STG4=; b=ZgWnZAXFud8NYPxcyKbI4PlFyZBL9szW5Ij00zVj41UoORdG9fFZg1duVNoDcTDwVYPXJEwjuYkqff7UCxhrR34GTWFsUyC02GFFtkZ8Q5wBqiH7/2jzl3ARFx/arJOswrHBIDb2arDvOt0DImABQ1Zr1PZ6iMQanF555s/d8vqlxuZSCG+J/8foNvIJltnsAndW/6sOfMsVSAzhqEUOiiNYrJu4o9YHQVdLpv4sXzDiBl/dzMHWDtMdPW7OlqJE DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:user-agent; s=746e.5e5d9415.k2003; olt=johnl-iecc.com@submit.iecc.com; bh=n+mBqE79ZHI4VYQFVDYaYw4hwch1+xy05DchZN+STG4=; b=ZNiTqq6Z2KszRRA91nTeGUWgCpeQyGOMP6Kwc8u3R/3CrDXhzyXQqsebu4cCOwPYCyWhP23HEJI8PtKxdoKwaswZLNXaBOULdMuBNP45/tbuKrNos9/sbQ+BVhoXITy7D3n7kZIxbw0X/Mc1rOW3tsiOh0L1odLSK/+zgOBryl4Bs2v5hsuYzmVTlEPUexuP6vzzBPr5pIlSGzSlgseU1jRsKzBXUzTEyBY2Zi3hPfEzK69U0zd3wfEddhRH+0N8 Received: from localhost ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPSA (TLS1.3 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD, johnl@iecc.com) via TCP6; 02 Mar 2020 23:17:41 -0000 Date: 2 Mar 2020 18:17:41 -0500 Message-ID: From: "John R Levine" To: "Russ Housley" Cc: "Dispatch WG" In-Reply-To: <684F5CCE-22AD-408C-B9E1-AAC1ACDFC632@vigilsec.com> References: <20200302174716.0AB321537ABD@ary.qy> <684F5CCE-22AD-408C-B9E1-AAC1ACDFC632@vigilsec.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.22 (OSX 407 2020-02-09) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] [BACKGROUND] Request for Dispatch to discuss steps forward on email security issues. X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2020 23:17:44 -0000 > I would expect compromise of an account to be different than compromise of a user's private signature key. That is why I think S/MIME signatures raise the bar. Depends. Remember that a large fraction, perhaps a majority now, of mail users use webmail or phone apps managed by the mail provider. At this point no major webmail provider supports S/MIME, but if they did, the key would be stored with the rest of the account info. Also, dismal experience tells us that a security model that says that all your real mail is signed and unsigned mail isn't you creates problems, especially for mail sent by people as opposed to bulk or tranactional mail. That's what DMARC does, and we've seen the mess it's caused. Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly From nobody Mon Mar 2 15:48:13 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9ECCB3A140C for ; Mon, 2 Mar 2020 15:48:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0MUltsIpVHIp for ; Mon, 2 Mar 2020 15:48:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oi1-x22a.google.com (mail-oi1-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0BC8D3A140B for ; Mon, 2 Mar 2020 15:48:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-oi1-x22a.google.com with SMTP id b18so1154837oie.2 for ; Mon, 02 Mar 2020 15:48:09 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=0yE724SPROp+2tc+PGOoWTLz8Zpkc/dDrCoIehjhLFA=; b=FCgusZ18dXNzgBuk5Pn/GcOd8hcbG9DfordkMCLX9I3Lt93qOiNZ0uHM4P89Dba4Ff JQswOPQsBemiVgbKSBzmffRb2Hk7crcJnWCaMsy+QFr6AJ19o5h8P0wT8JzhDgSxkr1E WkI+3Wd19QWgANUYFEkQf7vl8PKGEVAdZgOeN6UKnl7+ETF/bM0XtSKenaBvF+MQnx0t 6hP/cfk6RgK9Rh9EXSnB6MOYC4ms8eb/RdXfE0fmz5LMdldgJVXKunGNto1j4GO69glS BO6VZGOEsBgUTF49UZjSVfiqXrSmJoqWMD6rLwTKLApd7rBeeHYqZXxaL/uN6LqNyvx5 yRKQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=0yE724SPROp+2tc+PGOoWTLz8Zpkc/dDrCoIehjhLFA=; b=DzB2+8Cw2mnRddoNWdE9RSch3ihI2y08dShspHoR+iIK5THSRzLbTww9iXThtaJU2f HMOfrCb3Sr0EbrkkdfsYGeg+vf/rlZnbuXoBfV8pPHcP8uj+tyjzgeksc01cnMJdeBY5 GaqvkoCdC0AG9ngUU+DztImlrzrNIdFUKQa4eHMBhpuWpcnKh2UX713gV4+5jo3OhylN yQusU4Tvm/Lo9lEO46xrr7GiBvtpi5o5uiv19NOzUAG4Wi/sD6+qaH/9OEUTdD/MD8T6 49bdHMZw8V6VnNEBK4MTkNGqSLldMAt9Qqjp5i3EWaC+GfOXaLmwL2RGBx5MEMy8OID3 szrg== X-Gm-Message-State: ANhLgQ3yGMgigccemdIyQCXQ7UJ6w3dbowMaAAjovUaAb0J5nPdkqKS0 s0lapvWSCQx2BS9y9rgf/3zZPXA2JCtlKPJCfe7lDamO X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADFU+vutC4M84GJ17SSgnxk4+TZ4/ADFF1Yab2RL/bs+DYRXT0IR3Te0xQ3/dcWAaLBDzA3lPxMcsCHC9Y1L7lhWt6U= X-Received: by 2002:aca:b483:: with SMTP id d125mr633390oif.167.1583192888249; Mon, 02 Mar 2020 15:48:08 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200302174716.0AB321537ABD@ary.qy> <684F5CCE-22AD-408C-B9E1-AAC1ACDFC632@vigilsec.com> In-Reply-To: From: Ted Hardie Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2020 15:47:42 -0800 Message-ID: To: John R Levine Cc: Russ Housley , Dispatch WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b7166b059fe7d177" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] [BACKGROUND] Request for Dispatch to discuss steps forward on email security issues. X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2020 23:48:11 -0000 --000000000000b7166b059fe7d177 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Mon, Mar 2, 2020 at 3:17 PM John R Levine wrote: > > I would expect compromise of an account to be different than compromise > of a user's private signature key. That is why I think S/MIME signatures > raise the bar. > > Depends. Remember that a large fraction, perhaps a majority now, of mail > users use webmail or phone apps managed by the mail provider. At this > point no major webmail provider supports S/MIME, Just to clarify, Gmail as a provider does support this for enterprise and education customers: https://support.google.com/a/topic/9061730?hl=en&ref_topic=9061731 I realize that's likely not what John meant by "webmail provider", but it seemed worth clarifying in case folks remembered the roll-out of the feature to those customers. regards, Ted > but if they did, the key > would be stored with the rest of the account info. > > Also, dismal experience tells us that a security model that says that all > your real mail is signed and unsigned mail isn't you creates problems, > especially for mail sent by people as opposed to bulk or tranactional > mail. That's what DMARC does, and we've seen the mess it's caused. > > Regards, > John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY > Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly > > _______________________________________________ > dispatch mailing list > dispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch > --000000000000b7166b059fe7d177 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Mon, Mar 2, 2020 at 3:17 PM John R Lev= ine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:
> I would expect compromise of an account to be different tha= n compromise of a user's private signature key.=C2=A0 That is why I thi= nk S/MIME signatures raise the bar.

Depends.=C2=A0 Remember that a large fraction, perhaps a majority now, of m= ail
users use webmail or phone apps managed by the mail provider.=C2=A0 At this=
point no major webmail provider supports S/MIME,

Just to clarify, Gmail as a provider does support this for enterpris= e and education customers:

https://support.google.com/a/topic/9061730?hl=3Den&ref_topi= c=3D9061731

I realize that's likely not what John meant by "webmail = provider", but it seemed worth clarifying in case folks remembered the= roll-out of the feature to those customers.

regards,

Ted

=C2=A0
but if they did, the key
would be stored with the rest of the account info.

Also, dismal experience tells us that a security model that says that all <= br> your real mail is signed and unsigned mail isn't you creates problems, =
especially for mail sent by people as opposed to bulk or tranactional
mail.=C2=A0 That's what DMARC does, and we've seen the mess it'= s caused.

Regards,
John Levine, johnl@tau= gh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

_______________________________________________
dispatch mailing list
dispatch@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
--000000000000b7166b059fe7d177-- From nobody Mon Mar 2 15:53:06 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C20753A141F for ; Mon, 2 Mar 2020 15:53:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=NYvB8Lg+; dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=P1ph9ApJ Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hQuT84ylTzbV for ; Mon, 2 Mar 2020 15:53:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3AB543A141E for ; Mon, 2 Mar 2020 15:53:03 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 37273 invoked from network); 2 Mar 2020 23:53:02 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:user-agent; s=9190.5e5d9c5e.k2003; i=johnl-iecc.com@submit.iecc.com; bh=Y2C5AGFUqS8U3rqzQ2FfYWAibf6YPD2TRycU8B/6tnc=; b=NYvB8Lg+hCsrRMtylCQHDqYEWHfdFaC8YG0K3PhmjwYZr2CZE9mqm4ZgtFYkoFa4/Kaa3+sBFVKU62sg/vlNERGmPlLwM2axzDCcwn3GJMav7JmE9g8yV1sNTPHMK7IRoL+rff57Z06Uxpekb8q/OwjOZvgcxMoX7gT69aQyumSUByPZVjQMuH6bKNmF6b78I1gG+Cta9ZyMn8UaGrL5PU159yjeFS9uKqxkAdLgYSYItjkxKul1g/8n43ihrXgq DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:user-agent; s=9190.5e5d9c5e.k2003; olt=johnl-iecc.com@submit.iecc.com; bh=Y2C5AGFUqS8U3rqzQ2FfYWAibf6YPD2TRycU8B/6tnc=; b=P1ph9ApJWRGAIaWDa/XLYqiP4Kj3hdAtK82RLtyOyzqPAxSBtkURvNkqzLgQJFkpbTVj6EdqiMYLIvjc9wNjd90dtO4RczWC9UzDsadkS86arUHygfYeLZDso1Ec0lBolXZjCsR8oyPx/T+jeR7Zej36BLRi8nmTT5q6MYAF4/AsBCTWlEeKu0WyoDzBRTIkOIGUy0QjIGmHIS44OX7bOidpvmpx6vsr3zXgrpXsszojca/YhnKyiTeDDReRloVz Received: from localhost ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPSA (TLS1.3 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD, johnl@iecc.com) via TCP6; 02 Mar 2020 23:53:01 -0000 Date: 2 Mar 2020 18:53:01 -0500 Message-ID: From: "John R Levine" To: "Ted Hardie" Cc: "Russ Housley" , "Dispatch WG" In-Reply-To: References: <20200302174716.0AB321537ABD@ary.qy> <684F5CCE-22AD-408C-B9E1-AAC1ACDFC632@vigilsec.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.22 (OSX 407 2020-02-09) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] [BACKGROUND] Request for Dispatch to discuss steps forward on email security issues. X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2020 23:53:05 -0000 > Just to clarify, Gmail as a provider does support this for enterprise and > education customers: > > https://support.google.com/a/topic/9061730?hl=en&ref_topic=9061731 Oh, OK. Also to be clear, this discussion ignores S/MIME encryption which is unlike anything DKIM can do. Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly From nobody Mon Mar 2 16:07:06 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53AA23A145C for ; Mon, 2 Mar 2020 16:07:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -17.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-17.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, ENV_AND_HDR_SPF_MATCH=-0.5, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_DEF_SPF_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HVcXmeLyaTKF for ; Mon, 2 Mar 2020 16:07:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vk1-xa30.google.com (mail-vk1-xa30.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::a30]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4B2A93A145A for ; Mon, 2 Mar 2020 16:07:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-vk1-xa30.google.com with SMTP id t129so374878vkg.6 for ; Mon, 02 Mar 2020 16:07:01 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=renF/fVhIDnMyizW0NYYVBKN4VRv/sMdgHLxZaRTDZ0=; b=IsNEf5EedFn1DMAuo1eLBrA2mDEu5T8YLIeCixMGU3Fzbkv7xC8aQTkyHKFIwI9Mmg cxyEhPVmo8p9REYxxENifSD7Jy60cdZHhGdONE5CkIQT6h/lwkMDUoVzJBnTa5+3kYAl CMZXQKwL2KuQLUOXn/ytIp1QgSdrYqbb/19IBIHCRrebBfhNrSh0jHXUEmsZF4qrr1oG n0VVtFg0uCv7rMmlb6vifwYCzJPP2zQE5OEiQff5novznUaA+fOaJfNerSpvWQ42W51+ YcJ1e3imIUCA4+RirGmQZ32iL6/lZm0sLF+Jho7AI65rlEwDpSwm9pu6SWo+H9jEIRJ+ ljUA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=renF/fVhIDnMyizW0NYYVBKN4VRv/sMdgHLxZaRTDZ0=; b=R3soPDn5W5g7+CDfgpthznr7S4y2WAadAdnFsA9o+zgwJW2657gaecGL7C0moP5JH7 4THg0bUFqDpVe5q827vtOs+71dlxAIst1M1EHcjGjJvlvqC+ncRx57p1aXbpVuwlmS8g VXEzHAB1ufC95eLkvnJYNm8Lo6MMuUCGQ1zRqONFWiTslwlvioblFvtZbD1BEWbdSzA4 7M1901oAINTOU3j1sLOSouph3OVV4e/sredY6drfOGF+547BDM0smsDgSGDdcq5kP2xI jZh6cNmc+hjd81DznqBYK9qLd5Ry8AiuovPJ5jUlF8YWYw6EHsSx+ONI6xWwzrIV/bbL 47BA== X-Gm-Message-State: ANhLgQ0/bUDZRMrfzZ7/VXqoRQaDe3ky9nwGMJBPjcuspWx4R/YcbYOd fR12xxJiU9HXwK19If0e/YW9VmMXZGpbGwPEikjwHQg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADFU+vv2quqGMlYu2WLa7OlQveEZKkOgR4merMEbajyPjd7duU2v/mbP8+qJmYSA9O3rXrUKpxk37/lrcOvBhX8PX9o= X-Received: by 2002:a1f:49c1:: with SMTP id w184mr1420988vka.33.1583194019878; Mon, 02 Mar 2020 16:06:59 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Brandon Long Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2020 16:06:47 -0800 Message-ID: To: Michael Peddemors Cc: Dispatch WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002ae640059fe815b2" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] [BACKGROUND] Request for Dispatch to discuss steps forward on email security issues. X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2020 00:07:03 -0000 --0000000000002ae640059fe815b2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" These are definitely real problems, and there have been some work on some of it (OAUTHBEARER comes to mind), but it's probable more work can be done. Brandon On Wed, Feb 12, 2020 at 4:18 PM Michael Peddemors wrote: > For those that monitor other IETF lists, you may be aware that we were > soliciting support for a "Birds of a Feather" surrounding issues that > face the Internet today related to "Email Security". > > * BEC (Business Email Compromise) are now the largest single factor in > damage reported insurance claims. > * Email Compromises lead to higher rates of Ransomware, phishing, spear > phishing > * Email compromise may lead theft of other resources (domain > resets/transfers, banking password resets etc) > * High number of email clients and servers that still allow transmission > of unencrypted credentials. Reluctance of operators to deprecate. > * Auto Discovery Methods may preferentially try insecure methods, > exposing credentials > * POP Connectors maybe inadvertently leaking credentials > > Several initiatives have been pushed forward, and several discussions, > however it is not yet in a form that has clear enough definitions to > decide on whether the requirements for addressing this within the IETF, > dictate the formation of a new working group, or a re-purposing of > existing ones, or expanding their mandates. > > In our case, we are pushing forward on trying to make our proposals > around CLIENTID extensions to both SMTP AUTH and IMAP, and that crosses > boundaries of existing working groups. > > It is my contention, that there are enough topics around email security > in general, that while maybe first a BOF should be formed to clarify the > scope of such discussions, a working group be formed to solve these > serious issues. > > And while we continue to see adoption of our SMTP AUTH and IMAP CLIENTID > extensions, as outlined in our RFC Drafts, we would like to see this > become a standard, so it is more readily accepted and adopted by all > email clients and servers. > > This will take a working group that can encompass email security in a > larger scope, than WG's only concerned with singular protocols. > > Topics for Discussion - > > * How/if/when should POP/IMAP/SMTPAUTH credentials being sent > unencrypted be stopped? > * Should we deprecate language in RFC's that permit unencrypted? > * Common standards for AutoDiscovery methods for email clients > (No AutoDiscovery is bad as well, as it encourages insecure) > * Advantages of using an extension to IMAP/SMTP AUTH to allow > for a TOKEN that can be used as part of a two factor authentication > * Are there other authenticaton systems that would benefit as well? > * Why CLIENTID is better as an extension to the protocol, than a SASL > implementation? > > Some other ideas have also be floated, that is best suited to a working > group with a wide enough scope to encompass these issues. > > Given that we are NOT holding a BOF in Vancouver, it is suggested that > we petition for time to be held in the DISPATCH session in Vancouver to > discuss these things. > > -- Michael -- > > PS, we can still have a BOB ('BOF over Beers') session for those who are > interested. > > > > > > -- > "Catch the Magic of Linux..." > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Michael Peddemors, President/CEO LinuxMagic Inc. > Visit us at http://www.linuxmagic.com @linuxmagic > A Wizard IT Company - For More Info http://www.wizard.ca > "LinuxMagic" a Registered TradeMark of Wizard Tower TechnoServices Ltd. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > 604-682-0300 <(604)%20682-0300> Beautiful British Columbia, Canada > > This email and any electronic data contained are confidential and intended > solely for the use of the individual or entity to which they are addressed. > Please note that any views or opinions presented in this email are solely > those of the author and are not intended to represent those of the company. > > _______________________________________________ > dispatch mailing list > dispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch > --0000000000002ae640059fe815b2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
These are definitely real problems, and there have been so= me work on some of it (OAUTHBEARER comes to mind), but it's probable mo= re work can be done.

Brandon

On Wed, Feb 12, 2020 at 4:18 PM M= ichael Peddemors <michael@linu= xmagic.com> wrote:
For those that monitor other IETF lists, you may be aware that w= e were
soliciting support for a "Birds of a Feather" surrounding issues = that
face the Internet today related to "Email Security".

* BEC (Business Email Compromise) are now the largest single factor in
damage reported insurance claims.
* Email Compromises lead to higher rates of Ransomware, phishing, spear
=C2=A0 phishing
* Email compromise may lead theft of other resources (domain
resets/transfers, banking password resets etc)
* High number of email clients and servers that still allow transmission of unencrypted credentials.=C2=A0 Reluctance of operators to deprecate.
* Auto Discovery Methods may preferentially try insecure methods,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0exposing credentials
* POP Connectors maybe inadvertently leaking credentials

Several initiatives have been pushed forward, and several discussions,
however it is not yet in a form that has clear enough definitions to
decide on whether the requirements for addressing this within the IETF, dictate the formation of a new working group, or a re-purposing of
existing ones, or expanding their mandates.

In our case, we are pushing forward on trying to make our proposals
around CLIENTID extensions to both SMTP AUTH and IMAP, and that crosses boundaries of existing working groups.

It is my contention, that there are enough topics around email security in general, that while maybe first a BOF should be formed to clarify the scope of such discussions, a working group be formed to solve these
serious issues.

And while we continue to see adoption of our SMTP AUTH and IMAP CLIENTID extensions, as outlined in our RFC Drafts, we would like to see this
become a standard, so it is more readily accepted and adopted by all
email clients and servers.

This will take a working group that can encompass email security in a
larger scope, than WG's only concerned with singular protocols.

Topics for Discussion -

* How/if/when should POP/IMAP/SMTPAUTH credentials being sent
unencrypted be stopped?
* Should we deprecate language in RFC's that permit unencrypted?
* Common standards for AutoDiscovery methods for email clients
=C2=A0 =C2=A0(No AutoDiscovery is bad as well, as it encourages insecure) * Advantages of using an extension to IMAP/SMTP AUTH to allow
=C2=A0 =C2=A0for a TOKEN that can be used as part of a two factor authentic= ation
* Are there other authenticaton systems that would benefit as well?
* Why CLIENTID is better as an extension to the protocol, than a SASL
=C2=A0 =C2=A0implementation?

Some other ideas have also be floated, that is best suited to a working group with a wide enough scope to encompass these issues.

Given that we are NOT holding a BOF in Vancouver, it is suggested that
we petition for time to be held in the DISPATCH session in Vancouver to discuss these things.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 -- Michael --

PS, we can still have a BOB ('BOF over Beers') session for those wh= o are
interested.





--
"Catch the Magic of Linux..."
------------------------------------------------------------------------ Michael Peddemors, President/CEO LinuxMagic Inc.
Visit us at http://www.linuxmagic.com @linuxmagic
A Wizard IT Company - For More Info http://www.wizard.ca
"LinuxMagic" a Registered TradeMark of Wizard Tower TechnoService= s Ltd.
------------------------------------------------------------------------ 6= 04-682-0300 Beautiful British Columbia, Canada

This email and any electronic data contained are confidential and intended<= br> solely for the use of the individual or entity to which they are addressed.=
Please note that any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and are not intended to represent those of the company.=

_______________________________________________
dispatch mailing list
dispatch@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
--0000000000002ae640059fe815b2-- From nobody Tue Mar 3 06:49:58 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4A3A3A220A for ; Tue, 3 Mar 2020 06:49:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oYIyeCZaBxJr for ; Tue, 3 Mar 2020 06:49:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.smeinc.net (mail.smeinc.net [209.135.209.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 56B223A2231 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 2020 06:49:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC172300B44 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 2020 09:49:50 -0500 (EST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at mail.smeinc.net Received: from mail.smeinc.net ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.smeinc.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id 5Tqz3Mtu9VEy for ; Tue, 3 Mar 2020 09:49:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from a860b60074bd.fios-router.home (pool-72-66-113-56.washdc.fios.verizon.net [72.66.113.56]) by mail.smeinc.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C82E5300196; Tue, 3 Mar 2020 09:49:49 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Russ Housley In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2020 09:49:51 -0500 Cc: Dispatch WG Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <753CFBA9-3326-4F90-A178-A61C1ECAF184@vigilsec.com> References: <20200302174716.0AB321537ABD@ary.qy> <684F5CCE-22AD-408C-B9E1-AAC1ACDFC632@vigilsec.com> To: John Levine X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] [BACKGROUND] Request for Dispatch to discuss steps forward on email security issues. X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2020 14:49:57 -0000 John: >=20 >> I would expect compromise of an account to be different than = compromise of a user's private signature key. That is why I think = S/MIME signatures raise the bar. >=20 > Depends. Remember that a large fraction, perhaps a majority now, of = mail users use webmail or phone apps managed by the mail provider. At = this point no major webmail provider supports S/MIME, but if they did, = the key would be stored with the rest of the account info. I am aware of at least two approaches were that is not the case, but you = are correct in most approaches to S/MIME in a web mail environment. > Also, dismal experience tells us that a security model that says that = all your real mail is signed and unsigned mail isn't you creates = problems, especially for mail sent by people as opposed to bulk or = tranactional mail. That's what DMARC does, and we've seen the mess it's = caused. Yes, that is a very good point. Russ From nobody Tue Mar 3 07:51:17 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37EDA3A22AE for ; Tue, 3 Mar 2020 07:51:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=t/EEmxgb; dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=JupnT+/B Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8UvvDFVHDgbJ for ; Tue, 3 Mar 2020 07:51:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BE0A3A22C5 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 2020 07:51:12 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 8525 invoked from network); 3 Mar 2020 15:51:11 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:user-agent; s=214b.5e5e7cef.k2003; i=johnl-iecc.com@submit.iecc.com; bh=pSS4JtDMZc+KfDRr/cnZoD8tCWVAy4mgDozYxpEoib0=; b=t/EEmxgbZ14AqvhzOI8C76TKWobqZFAogQmSfLVm8MW/v3OIYvqYsIFbOr5LA88UqwNDBPgC4AjqHGjp+5Tm8KMXZwcTch2ce6kt+BrbDKZUlqSp3/TcGyfMf/vq+RI1MHsoUTzheJLoZaj8DFwir/p97clYAVQyDkf0ILsr88Kh1EaVsIR62k9VabxoIhG1AM0yuYYVMYI14Oh+x5uikfDOrXOL9HoIrHcgaoMkSV+cWK/hOPCb2L2otAveupM+ DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:user-agent; s=214b.5e5e7cef.k2003; olt=johnl-iecc.com@submit.iecc.com; bh=pSS4JtDMZc+KfDRr/cnZoD8tCWVAy4mgDozYxpEoib0=; b=JupnT+/BE+ggc6KEwmUDDXlD40K1sPVKM40oObDpMqMG3EiSy5rLshsRRqCOt0sGTC1czEILPLbWPPDT9LT0WK3fTQ85suthpj1hlcBoLK1i2v/idquU7ZbLP/b0+ipKKGiVLa1rJhVv2lUQmMLzk/rq0mr77NfCCV0mFbOoEQnppW5l7lalAVfA2knmRayZeeGdaTwLsLgkzsQtzlUtRBmYjgqXxnBXZWaf2DvYdnS6Q3Jk/DQ1FtFOwbISGYVJ Received: from localhost ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPSA (TLS1.3 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD, johnl@iecc.com) via TCP6; 03 Mar 2020 15:51:10 -0000 Date: 3 Mar 2020 10:51:10 -0500 Message-ID: From: "John R Levine" To: "Russ Housley" Cc: "Dispatch WG" In-Reply-To: <753CFBA9-3326-4F90-A178-A61C1ECAF184@vigilsec.com> References: <20200302174716.0AB321537ABD@ary.qy> <684F5CCE-22AD-408C-B9E1-AAC1ACDFC632@vigilsec.com> <753CFBA9-3326-4F90-A178-A61C1ECAF184@vigilsec.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.22 (OSX 407 2020-02-09) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] [BACKGROUND] Request for Dispatch to discuss steps forward on email security issues. X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2020 15:51:15 -0000 On Tue, 3 Mar 2020, Russ Housley wrote: >> Depends. Remember that a large fraction, perhaps a majority now, of mail users use webmail or phone apps managed by the mail provider. At this point no major webmail provider supports S/MIME, but if they did, the key would be stored with the rest of the account info. > > I am aware of at least two approaches were that is not the case, but you are correct in most approaches to S/MIME in a web mail environment. It seems to me that we need to consider scalability to non-technical users here. If you and I want to exchange signed or encrypted S/MIME mail, we can do so easily because we know the tools and understand enough about key management. If I wanted to do so with my daughter or my mother-in-law, both of whom use whatever mail app comes with their phone, not so much. Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly From nobody Tue Mar 3 12:04:00 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7D653A0890 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 2020 12:03:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.087 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.087 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS=0.276, MAY_BE_FORGED=1.49, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ykynVdW5aIsh for ; Tue, 3 Mar 2020 12:03:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 792753A088A for ; Tue, 3 Mar 2020 12:03:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.127.239] (mta-70-120-123-175.stx.rr.com [70.120.123.175] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 023K3jx8019335 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 3 Mar 2020 14:03:46 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1583265827; bh=3upcIhBb3J1j41FeNFnXany2HgF/GAgz5KL38Tk6sBE=; h=From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References; b=jd5FPvqpKBTRVhQepdMjbT+2F3Axll7AsSIf4KMUFleRVIPFJRa7Q9hTntHwXy+7z j/zqz07rUJKHu8l39vGKcCtUBQIOdR8NEwqY+/gile5hc7TxKMq+58aOc9CscywT3H OwEe6EceA3ANY62ZhwunpKp0bzM4GF0TbvKUVuGo= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host mta-70-120-123-175.stx.rr.com [70.120.123.175] (may be forged) claimed to be [192.168.127.239] From: Ben Campbell Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_26FEBA23-E63C-44ED-AC5E-A1BB77E41101"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.60.0.2.5\)) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2020 14:03:38 -0600 In-Reply-To: <5E54D66F.5070902@openfortress.nl> Cc: Tommy Pauly , Mark Nottingham To: DISPATCH WG References: <5E54D66F.5070902@openfortress.nl> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.60.0.2.5) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] SASL Authentication for HTTP X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2020 20:03:58 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_26FEBA23-E63C-44ED-AC5E-A1BB77E41101 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi, Does anyone in DISPATCH (esp. our HTTP experts) have thoughts on = Rick=E2=80=99s draft? I see that it had a small amount of discussion in HTTPBIS back in = January. Is this something that should be discussed in DISPATCH or does = it clearly belong to HTTPBIS? (I=E2=80=99ve copied the HTTPBIS chairs) Thanks! Ben. > On Feb 25, 2020, at 2:10 AM, Rick van Rein = wrote: >=20 > Hello, >=20 > This draft proposes to introduce SASL as an authentication mechanism > into HTTP. Adding such mechanisms requires IETF Review according to = RFC > 7235. >=20 > I don't know where to turn, and this has long stopped this proposal = from > progressing. It has now been proposed to go through DISPATCH, as this > is more related to the binding with protocol headers than to SASL, = which > itself is quite clear on requirements to its carrier. >=20 > I have been made aware that SASL in HTTP has been tried before; the > reasons why that didn't finish 15 years ago are resolved in this = draft: >=20 > Scalability: >=20 > - stateless server side (server state relays through the client) > - sequential messages distributed over connections is no problem >=20 > Security: >=20 > - no fixation on DIGEST-MD5 (compatibility pulls down security) > - support for channel binding without fixating protocol layering >=20 >=20 > Benjamin Kaduk noted my search for IETF mechanisms and responded with: >=20 >> That said, I'm happy to see work in this space and would be willing = to >> AD-sponsor it upon a recommendation of either DISPATCH group, if that = is >> the recommendation. >=20 >=20 > The authors of the prior HTTP SASL proposal also welcome this work = being > done. >=20 >=20 > What are your recommendations towards this work? >=20 >=20 > Thanks, > -Rick >=20 >=20 > --------- >=20 >=20 > A new version of I-D, draft-vanrein-httpauth-sasl-03.txt > has been successfully submitted by Rick van Rein and posted to the > IETF repository. >=20 > Name: draft-vanrein-httpauth-sasl > Revision: 03 > Title: HTTP Authentication with SASL > Document date: 2020-01-20 > Group: Individual Submission > Pages: 12 > URL: > = https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-vanrein-httpauth-sasl-03.txt > Status: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-vanrein-httpauth-sasl/ > Htmlized: = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-vanrein-httpauth-sasl-03 > Htmlized: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-vanrein-httpauth-sasl > Diff: > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-vanrein-httpauth-sasl-03 >=20 > Abstract: > Most application-level protocols standardise their authentication > exchanges under the SASL framework. HTTP has taken another course, > and often ends up replicating the work to allow individual > mechanisms. This specification adopts full SASL authentication into > HTTP. >=20 > _______________________________________________ > dispatch mailing list > dispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch --Apple-Mail=_26FEBA23-E63C-44ED-AC5E-A1BB77E41101 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEExW9rpd7ez4DexOFOgFZKbJXz1A0FAl5euBoACgkQgFZKbJXz 1A3nEQ/+OIRHLDJRP5KrOIdESpMc0x5oSsh/uFwYOX/gwd7Sy0da0HoeMSdIYIFF S9OSAiZrrkhXEfujK4Nx5/SVGCS9fYwM9aToFhn2xx3IzVgukq/NvflCEg4kgEVH ET8Ym28hcaMJR3no28RrBjGqY7QS4dJw6m/WBmUmwjcZqocOyuXdDlC7jcXEsvv+ hlj+mS7jH0Cs5DEEXkPHi30FxK6nuIqwxXD6FLaFp2yJfePPwbkQMSV7CQWJ7GRh MbiNpuFq3ZgAfTynPrZWA021nFAGMQ6EY+MfkBAql9pvoA5AKP7YoZryisF71AH5 xy866xAC/vBtYLsmCcvTnXv/bW/vTk/Ir5IMrqaOC+ugjzZ85xVikAhTGIo0VnPx miI9LvDiy2XBsf2mXk8WpcSjy00Jk2VB8LvRqp8/KN/GJPeqASX2Bv6O/60/dUPL /OXA096QsPIWKTF9uyxtwolVlbvtyGAkJ+FnICln4VdIUvEzL5ASGgOrxHq1sZqy 3Qouujf090sBeKN19YF9nJNmFYP05EtsIhC/Q4ICf7MKz9m5OKv1Ryas1aNPN+fK vg3Aw6aM6s6I7OrD5t96XvMuJ16ecSU18ElYqOAjfPU+YyNYJSLbxee/5a7UroNh T4dnIRzq6oRJnED8VrVfEf4IMORHUQgqmcm/EaPIq5Y5nbxGw/c= =1fRn -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_26FEBA23-E63C-44ED-AC5E-A1BB77E41101-- From nobody Tue Mar 3 17:08:07 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B9E63A0A18 for ; 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Wed, 04 Mar 2020 01:08:00 +0000 Received: from abhmp0018.oracle.com (abhmp0018.oracle.com [141.146.116.24]) by userv0121.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id 02417xRE014428 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 01:07:59 GMT Received: from [10.159.230.241] (/10.159.230.241) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Tue, 03 Mar 2020 17:07:58 -0800 From: "Chris Newman" To: dispatch@ietf.org Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2020 17:07:58 -0800 X-Mailer: MailMate (1.13.1r5671) Message-ID: <840E4D20-297F-416B-82F4-6DC1D3E09A62@oracle.com> In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9549 signatures=668685 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 adultscore=0 phishscore=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 mlxlogscore=999 mlxscore=0 spamscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2001150001 definitions=main-2003040005 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9549 signatures=668685 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 spamscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxscore=0 adultscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 lowpriorityscore=0 priorityscore=1501 bulkscore=0 clxscore=1011 suspectscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2001150001 definitions=main-2003040005 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] [BACKGROUND] Request for Dispatch to discuss steps forward on email security issues. X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2020 01:08:05 -0000 We discussed this proposal in the EXTRA WG in IETF 102 when there was a lot of email expertise in the room. Excerpt from minutes from EXTRA IETF 102 (https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/102/agenda.html): ---- client-id: Michael Peddemors * Proposal is a new IMAP command before authentication used to provide a token that is unique to the particular piece of client software, allowing some level of protection against password reuse (2.5 factor auth) * Was generally agreed that the identified underlying issue (knowing that the same client is connecting) is worth examining. * Would also need to be added to SUBMIT, POP3, LDAP, CalDAV, CardDAV, etc. There's already an existing draft for SUBMIT. * The name CID is confusing because it has another meaning in MIME - definitely recommend renaming the command. * Strong suggestion that SASL might be the right place for this rather than per-protocol commands. * If this belongs in SASL, then it's not in scope for EXTRA and a different home should be found for the work. * NEXT STEPS: keep discussing on extra list for now while trying to work out the correct home. There is not consensus for adopting this work in its current form. ---- My opinion is this is an important problem space that merits standards attention and could lead to new SASL authentication mechanism(s) but I do not find client-id a good starting point as it's a bespoke protocol-specific mechanism rather than a cross-protocol mechanism. While the OAuth SASL mechanism may work in an environment where a user is present with a full web browser interface, I think there's interest in using real two-factor to bootstrap a revokable device-specific token in a way that doesn't require a full web browser interface. This is interesting not just for mobile devices (where non-standard SASL mechanisms to do this have deployed), but also for IoT devices. I think general discussion of email security is far too large a topic and would too easily wander into the weeds. Deployable email authentication mechanisms that eliminate the need to store reusable human passwords is a good scope limitation. - Chris On 12 Feb 2020, at 16:18, Michael Peddemors wrote: > For those that monitor other IETF lists, you may be aware that we were > soliciting support for a "Birds of a Feather" surrounding issues that > face the Internet today related to "Email Security". > > * BEC (Business Email Compromise) are now the largest single factor in > damage reported insurance claims. > * Email Compromises lead to higher rates of Ransomware, phishing, > spear > phishing > * Email compromise may lead theft of other resources (domain > resets/transfers, banking password resets etc) > * High number of email clients and servers that still allow > transmission > of unencrypted credentials. Reluctance of operators to deprecate. > * Auto Discovery Methods may preferentially try insecure methods, > exposing credentials > * POP Connectors maybe inadvertently leaking credentials > > Several initiatives have been pushed forward, and several discussions, > however it is not yet in a form that has clear enough definitions to > decide on whether the requirements for addressing this within the > IETF, dictate the formation of a new working group, or a re-purposing > of existing ones, or expanding their mandates. > > In our case, we are pushing forward on trying to make our proposals > around CLIENTID extensions to both SMTP AUTH and IMAP, and that > crosses boundaries of existing working groups. > > It is my contention, that there are enough topics around email > security in general, that while maybe first a BOF should be formed to > clarify the > scope of such discussions, a working group be formed to solve these > serious issues. > > And while we continue to see adoption of our SMTP AUTH and IMAP > CLIENTID extensions, as outlined in our RFC Drafts, we would like to > see this > become a standard, so it is more readily accepted and adopted by all > email clients and servers. > > This will take a working group that can encompass email security in a > larger scope, than WG's only concerned with singular protocols. > > Topics for Discussion - > > * How/if/when should POP/IMAP/SMTPAUTH credentials being sent > unencrypted be stopped? > * Should we deprecate language in RFC's that permit unencrypted? > * Common standards for AutoDiscovery methods for email clients > (No AutoDiscovery is bad as well, as it encourages insecure) > * Advantages of using an extension to IMAP/SMTP AUTH to allow > for a TOKEN that can be used as part of a two factor authentication > * Are there other authenticaton systems that would benefit as well? > * Why CLIENTID is better as an extension to the protocol, than a SASL > implementation? > > Some other ideas have also be floated, that is best suited to a > working group with a wide enough scope to encompass these issues. > > Given that we are NOT holding a BOF in Vancouver, it is suggested that > we petition for time to be held in the DISPATCH session in Vancouver > to discuss these things. > > -- Michael -- > > PS, we can still have a BOB ('BOF over Beers') session for those who > are interested. > > > > > > -- > "Catch the Magic of Linux..." > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Michael Peddemors, President/CEO LinuxMagic Inc. From nobody Tue Mar 3 17:25:07 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3801A3A0A4D for ; Tue, 3 Mar 2020 17:25:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=J4k8AXIW; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=xVlgmyOq Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EPkek5d2aIri for ; Tue, 3 Mar 2020 17:25:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com (out1-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 809BC3A0A48 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 2020 17:25:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute5.internal (compute5.nyi.internal [10.202.2.45]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7137221FC; Tue, 3 Mar 2020 20:25:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute5.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 03 Mar 2020 20:25:01 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm2; bh=D ik06MGYt9fD+YYyiev7L7ogTirK0L5442Yk/RYSaTw=; b=J4k8AXIWuPcPvnWDR PLoyPqIFvuNAfjZPXQ7xs9Ios92al69ZqrpnniFM2MwPoWEmYPHvf2YEbcHU1Rcm CCEQZx0O+Jsy973je+6883orSdrMrcN5Of7rwnWitA7KHmT1DfgMbsm0KqQp93cR OkEAlWF7otx87A5i/Z9D/9dbRwmGJK3K2In0jiyQmHSb6xuWfv4Jta9UHy1EIguo Z2TFo//OSZCHpa8593c0jvRkQFl3TRmXP4XGhZJv869bz+2FHhLBtkPmmIddIpm0 q62mMA/5x0AuAaZ/yz9do6CkzPP8G1KlST8Fyg5O/dtOxyKhZsRzQKSe7DVRtJef SqrPg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=Dik06MGYt9fD+YYyiev7L7ogTirK0L5442Yk/RYSa Tw=; b=xVlgmyOq2AoiKEQFeZ4pvHske9E2kRSrubm6P/8GVBULtK+cH3P8CMBXH qCbVLAezyBLxl1Hg87PNzf1JfbPhwE0uNHVg8MdDQvfiUrAd189lg8IXla6UO29K R3KhyDzggWhkyFefQdOOLo68W9w29dZ/G8ytnDzgU6BVj6KQasV1/lGdFXL7x5jE RMjOuO7IN6ilMSFsF8a6XgBEVZgR7TGWaIJMRkMUbYSjWRBhSM2ZHV9+ZDa34oeG OLMMXxY72Tri1wMpyRd4Nm+iOtptxGjSM5hbDLWgnzVhKhVvkdjtB75+c9ZaZKFH lheY2mBbDjDKAb93RZWXofJFUO7Zw== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedugedruddtjedgfeehucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurheptggguffhjgffgffkfhfvofesthhqmhdthhdtjeenucfhrhhomhepofgrrhhk ucfpohhtthhinhhghhgrmhcuoehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvghtqeenucffohhmrghinh ephhhtthhpsghishgsrggtkhhinhhjrghnuhgrrhihrdhishdpihgvthhfrdhorhhgpdgu ihhsphgrthgthhhmrghilhhinhhglhhishhtughishhprghttghhihgvthhfrdhorhhgpd hmnhhothdrnhgvthenucfkphepudduledrudejrdduheekrddvhedunecuvehluhhsthgv rhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhnohhtsehmnhhothdrnh gvth X-ME-Proxy: Received: from macbook-pro.mnot.net (unknown [119.17.158.251]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 5D4013280059; Tue, 3 Mar 2020 20:24:59 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.60.0.2.5\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 12:24:56 +1100 Cc: DISPATCH WG , Tommy Pauly Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <5E54D66F.5070902@openfortress.nl> To: Ben Campbell X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.60.0.2.5) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] SASL Authentication for HTTP X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2020 01:25:06 -0000 Hi Ben, I think it belongs in HTTPbis, given that it's a HTTP extension - unless = someone is arguing that it deserves a separate WG. Given the potential = pitfalls in terms of integration (especially if things are stateful), we = need careful review by HTTP folks to make sure it doesn't break = anything. However, we generally only adopt things when we have signs of interest = from implementers; so far we haven't seen that. So it'd be good to see = some more on-list discussion - in particular, it'd also be good to = understand what adding SASL to the mix of already existent HTTP = authentication mechanisms brings. A short presentation or discussion at IETF107 might also help; I'm a = little wary of giving a time slot to a presentation with so little = on-list discussion, but if that makes things easier for DISPATCH, we can = manage that (provided IETF107 happens, of course). Cheers, > On 4 Mar 2020, at 7:03 am, Ben Campbell wrote: >=20 > Hi, >=20 > Does anyone in DISPATCH (esp. our HTTP experts) have thoughts on = Rick=E2=80=99s draft? >=20 > I see that it had a small amount of discussion in HTTPBIS back in = January. Is this something that should be discussed in DISPATCH or does = it clearly belong to HTTPBIS? (I=E2=80=99ve copied the HTTPBIS chairs) >=20 > Thanks! >=20 > Ben. >=20 >> On Feb 25, 2020, at 2:10 AM, Rick van Rein = wrote: >>=20 >> Hello, >>=20 >> This draft proposes to introduce SASL as an authentication mechanism >> into HTTP. Adding such mechanisms requires IETF Review according to = RFC >> 7235. >>=20 >> I don't know where to turn, and this has long stopped this proposal = from >> progressing. It has now been proposed to go through DISPATCH, as = this >> is more related to the binding with protocol headers than to SASL, = which >> itself is quite clear on requirements to its carrier. >>=20 >> I have been made aware that SASL in HTTP has been tried before; the >> reasons why that didn't finish 15 years ago are resolved in this = draft: >>=20 >> Scalability: >>=20 >> - stateless server side (server state relays through the client) >> - sequential messages distributed over connections is no problem >>=20 >> Security: >>=20 >> - no fixation on DIGEST-MD5 (compatibility pulls down security) >> - support for channel binding without fixating protocol layering >>=20 >>=20 >> Benjamin Kaduk noted my search for IETF mechanisms and responded = with: >>=20 >>> That said, I'm happy to see work in this space and would be willing = to >>> AD-sponsor it upon a recommendation of either DISPATCH group, if = that is >>> the recommendation. >>=20 >>=20 >> The authors of the prior HTTP SASL proposal also welcome this work = being >> done. >>=20 >>=20 >> What are your recommendations towards this work? >>=20 >>=20 >> Thanks, >> -Rick >>=20 >>=20 >> --------- >>=20 >>=20 >> A new version of I-D, draft-vanrein-httpauth-sasl-03.txt >> has been successfully submitted by Rick van Rein and posted to the >> IETF repository. >>=20 >> Name: draft-vanrein-httpauth-sasl >> Revision: 03 >> Title: HTTP Authentication with SASL >> Document date: 2020-01-20 >> Group: Individual Submission >> Pages: 12 >> URL: >> = https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-vanrein-httpauth-sasl-03.txt >> Status: >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-vanrein-httpauth-sasl/ >> Htmlized: = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-vanrein-httpauth-sasl-03 >> Htmlized: >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-vanrein-httpauth-sasl >> Diff: >> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-vanrein-httpauth-sasl-03 >>=20 >> Abstract: >> Most application-level protocols standardise their authentication >> exchanges under the SASL framework. HTTP has taken another course, >> and often ends up replicating the work to allow individual >> mechanisms. This specification adopts full SASL authentication into >> HTTP. >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> dispatch mailing list >> dispatch@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch >=20 -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Tue Mar 3 17:34:25 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FFC63A0A5B for ; Tue, 3 Mar 2020 17:34:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GkQzs4E7AEO8 for ; 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h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=Hw7ipCC1vbm6XztAKuvb6fLh4gw2JI5xc/1uJWLneXmxd3pD54L92cBx9neU59PSn CvsWf8VRyJZ0pVmHIua5dcB/N+5Gq8Yu3SEpi2X3B7QBqrM+Yrrc4emA56FXVNVZ71 KEs06yVGeNwQleW8iFgGYw38Z8n9tycVPaseyVuA= To: Chris Newman , dispatch@ietf.org References: <840E4D20-297F-416B-82F4-6DC1D3E09A62@oracle.com> From: Stephen Farrell Autocrypt: addr=stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh 5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+ QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKr EMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZU bUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqO Vz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJg b097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k 4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8DVQu8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5Xi HzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER8la5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQABtDJTdGVwaGVuIEZh cnJlbGwgKDIwMTcpIDxzdGVwaGVuLmZhcnJlbGxAY3MudGNkLmllPokCQAQTAQgAKgIbAwUJ CZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAUCWj6jdwIZAQAKCRBasvrxexcr6o7QD/9m x9DPJetmW794RXmNTrbTJ44zc/tJbcLdRBh0KBn9OW/EaAqjDmgNJeCMyJTKr1ywaps8HGUN hLEVkc14NUpgi4/Zkrbi3DmTp25OHj6wXBS5qVMyVynTMEIjOfeFFyxG+48od+Xn7qg6LT7G rHeNf+z/r0v9+8eZ1Ip63kshQDGhhpmRMKu4Ws9ZvTW2ACXkkTFaSGYJj3yIP4R6IgwBYGMz DXFX6nS4LA1s3pcPNxOgrvCyb60AiJZTLcOk/rRrpZtXB1XQc23ZZmrlTkl2HaThL6w3YKdi Ti1NbuMeOxZqtXcUshII45sANm4HuWNTiRh93Bn5bN6ddjgsaXEZBKUBuUaPBl7gQiQJcAlS 3MmGgVS4ZoX8+VaPGpXdQVFyBMRFlOKOC5XJESt7wY0RE2C8PFm+5eywSO/P1fkl9whkMgml 3OEuIQiP2ehRt/HVLMHkoM9CPQ7t6UwdrXrvX+vBZykav8x9U9M6KTgfsXytxUl6Vx5lPMLi 2/Jrsz6Mzh/IVZa3xjhq1OLFSI/tT2ji4FkJDQbO+yYUDhcuqfakDmtWLMxecZsY6O58A/95 8Qni6Xeq+Nh7zJ7wNcQOMoDGj+24di2TX1cKLzdDMWFaWzlNP5dB5VMwS9Wqj1Z6TzKjGjru q8soqohwb2CK9B3wzFg0Bs1iBI+2RuFnxLkCDQRaPVAyARAA+g3R0HzGr/Dl34Y07XqGqzq5 SU0nXIu9u8Ynsxj7gR5qb3HgUWYEWrHW2jHOByXnvkffucf5yzwrsvw8Q8iI8CFHiTYHPpey 4yPVn6R0w/FOMcY70eTIu/k6EEFDlDbs09DtKcrsT9bmN0XoRxITlXwWTufYqUnmS+YkAuk+ TLCtUin7OdaS2uU6Ata3PLQSeM2ZsUQMmYmHPwB9rmf+q2I005AJ9Q1SPQ2KNg/8xOGxo13S VuaSqYRQdpV93RuCOzg4vuXtR+gP0KQrus/P2ZCEPvU9cXF/2MIhXgOz207lv3iE2zGyNXld /n8spvWk+0bH5Zqd9Wcba/rGcBhmX9NKKDARZqjkv/zVEP1X97w1HsNYeUFNcg2lk9zQKb4v l1jx/Uz8ukzH2QNhU4R39dbF/4AwWuSVkGW6bTxHJqGs6YimbfdQqxTzmqFwz3JP0OtXX5q/ 6D4pHwcmJwEiDNzsBLl6skPSQ0Xyq3pua/qAP8MVm+YxCxJQITqZ8qjDLzoe7s9X6FLLC/DA L9kxl5saVSfDbuI3usH/emdtn0NA9/M7nfgih92zD92sl1yQXHT6BDa8xW1j+RU4P+E0wyd7 zgB2UeYgrp2IIcfG+xX2uFG5MJQ/nYfBoiALb0+dQHNHDtFnNGY3Oe8z1M9c5aDG3/s29QbJ +w7hEKKo9YMAEQEAAYkCJQQYAQgADwUCWj1QMgIbDAUJCZQmAAAKCRBasvrxexcr6qwvD/9b Rek3kfN8Q+jGrKl8qwY8HC5s4mhdDJZI/JP2FImf5J2+d5/e8UJ4fcsT79E0/FqX3Z9wZr6h sofPqLh1/YzDsYkZDHTYSGrlWGP/I5kXwUmFnBZHzM3WGrL3S7ZmCYMdudhykxXXjq7M6Do1 oxM8JofrXGtwBTLv5wfvvygJouVCVe87Ge7mCeY5vey1eUi4zSSF1zPpR6gg64w2g4TXM5qt SwkZVOv1g475LsGlYWRuJV8TA67yp1zJI7HkNqCo8KyHX0DPOh9c+Sd9ZX4aqKfqH9HIpnCL AYEgj7vofeix7gM3kQQmwynqq32bQGQBrKJEYp2vfeO30VsVx4dzuuiC5lyjUccVmw5D72J0 FlGrfEm0kw6D1qwyBg0SAMqamKN6XDdjhNAtXIaoA2UMZK/vZGGUKbqTgDdk0fnzOyb2zvXK CiPFKqIPAqKaDHg0JHdGI3KpQdRNLLzgx083EqEc6IAwWA6jSz+6lZDV6XDgF0lYqAYIkg3+ 6OUXUv6plMlwSHquiOc/MQXHfgUP5//Ra5JuiuyCj954FD+MBKIj8eWROfnzyEnBplVHGSDI ZLzL3pvV14dcsoajdeIH45i8DxnVm64BvEFHtLNlnliMrLOrk4shfmWyUqNlzilXN2BTFVFH 4MrnagFdcFnWYp1JPh96ZKjiqBwMv/H0kw== Message-ID: <47cd115b-ad35-4a14-261e-dc2944b571d1@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 01:34:14 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <840E4D20-297F-416B-82F4-6DC1D3E09A62@oracle.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="4oha42WhFh57QjgGbYrnvIGc9Kxdq8YPt" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] [BACKGROUND] Request for Dispatch to discuss steps forward on email security issues. X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2020 01:34:23 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --4oha42WhFh57QjgGbYrnvIGc9Kxdq8YPt Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="pIBbPere5Ye59TtLqBnOE7c36QYYRWYxO"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Chris Newman , dispatch@ietf.org Message-ID: <47cd115b-ad35-4a14-261e-dc2944b571d1@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [dispatch] [BACKGROUND] Request for Dispatch to discuss steps forward on email security issues. References: <840E4D20-297F-416B-82F4-6DC1D3E09A62@oracle.com> In-Reply-To: <840E4D20-297F-416B-82F4-6DC1D3E09A62@oracle.com> --pIBbPere5Ye59TtLqBnOE7c36QYYRWYxO Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------650F25A8EC35F04550C53726" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------650F25A8EC35F04550C53726 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, On 04/03/2020 01:07, Chris Newman wrote: >=20 >=20 > My opinion is this is an important problem space that merits standards > attention and could lead to new SASL authentication mechanism(s) but I > do not find client-id a good starting point as it's a bespoke > protocol-specific=C2=A0mechanism=C2=A0rather=C2=A0than=C2=A0a=C2=A0cros= s-protocol=C2=A0mechanism. I almost, but not quite, agree. 100% agree on the problem space and importance. I'm not sure whether SASL, despite being the obvious thing, is the right thing. Given how mailboxes are distributed these days, it may be that anything that a) isn't vulnerable to password guessing on port 143 etc., that b) could be deployed on the major services and that c) could be implemented by open-source MTAs... is just fine. SASL could provide such an answer, but I'd not make it a starting point. Put another way - I have a (small) bunch of domains where the IMAP listener is the only remaining vector for password guessing and I'd really like to get rid of that, but cannot today and maintain support for multiple MUAs. That has to be a problem that many mail services face, so I do hope we can try make progress on some interoperable, deployable solution. 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d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1583290176; bh=HhlsFySZqs1FAG8ajd9LLxZMYG5sQeB68HkHHD52Zdc=; h=From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References; b=jzOB5Ty/G/t+ylWIFyA9GSNJXbbvQKekIoV1fr6KSxDrCtqKDeoRJgPSft7ETxuL3 wcv7VKSyAcWOksjOZJHh7H7wvwulmCn4FIsMBOCkUFWuXEcuCNoPTG9ZK3oBl+sGlH SAIu+WOHCljsOI33hRdZ+jTf7KnncHt8RUC/Z5+U= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host mta-70-120-123-175.stx.rr.com [70.120.123.175] (may be forged) claimed to be [192.168.127.239] From: Ben Campbell Message-Id: <465193FE-E96E-4071-992C-6979BF97B9A5@nostrum.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_493B0A73-BC60-4138-A1D8-C3E591DFCC73"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.60.0.2.5\)) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2020 20:49:28 -0600 In-Reply-To: Cc: DISPATCH WG , Tommy Pauly To: Mark Nottingham References: <5E54D66F.5070902@openfortress.nl> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.60.0.2.5) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] SASL Authentication for HTTP X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2020 02:49:49 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_493B0A73-BC60-4138-A1D8-C3E591DFCC73 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Thanks Mark! By =E2=80=9Cshort presentation=E2=80=9D, were you thinking = in terms of doing so in HTTPBIS or DISPATCH? Everyone: If you find this interesting, please comment soon. We will be = figuring out agendas really soon now, and Mark is correct that we need = to prioritize meeting time for things that have had list discussion. Thanks! Ben. > On Mar 3, 2020, at 7:24 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: >=20 > Hi Ben, >=20 > I think it belongs in HTTPbis, given that it's a HTTP extension - = unless someone is arguing that it deserves a separate WG. Given the = potential pitfalls in terms of integration (especially if things are = stateful), we need careful review by HTTP folks to make sure it doesn't = break anything. >=20 > However, we generally only adopt things when we have signs of interest = from implementers; so far we haven't seen that. So it'd be good to see = some more on-list discussion - in particular, it'd also be good to = understand what adding SASL to the mix of already existent HTTP = authentication mechanisms brings. >=20 > A short presentation or discussion at IETF107 might also help; I'm a = little wary of giving a time slot to a presentation with so little = on-list discussion, but if that makes things easier for DISPATCH, we can = manage that (provided IETF107 happens, of course). >=20 > Cheers, >=20 >=20 >> On 4 Mar 2020, at 7:03 am, Ben Campbell wrote: >>=20 >> Hi, >>=20 >> Does anyone in DISPATCH (esp. our HTTP experts) have thoughts on = Rick=E2=80=99s draft? >>=20 >> I see that it had a small amount of discussion in HTTPBIS back in = January. Is this something that should be discussed in DISPATCH or does = it clearly belong to HTTPBIS? (I=E2=80=99ve copied the HTTPBIS chairs) >>=20 >> Thanks! >>=20 >> Ben. >>=20 >>> On Feb 25, 2020, at 2:10 AM, Rick van Rein = wrote: >>>=20 >>> Hello, >>>=20 >>> This draft proposes to introduce SASL as an authentication mechanism >>> into HTTP. Adding such mechanisms requires IETF Review according to = RFC >>> 7235. >>>=20 >>> I don't know where to turn, and this has long stopped this proposal = from >>> progressing. It has now been proposed to go through DISPATCH, as = this >>> is more related to the binding with protocol headers than to SASL, = which >>> itself is quite clear on requirements to its carrier. >>>=20 >>> I have been made aware that SASL in HTTP has been tried before; the >>> reasons why that didn't finish 15 years ago are resolved in this = draft: >>>=20 >>> Scalability: >>>=20 >>> - stateless server side (server state relays through the client) >>> - sequential messages distributed over connections is no problem >>>=20 >>> Security: >>>=20 >>> - no fixation on DIGEST-MD5 (compatibility pulls down security) >>> - support for channel binding without fixating protocol layering >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Benjamin Kaduk noted my search for IETF mechanisms and responded = with: >>>=20 >>>> That said, I'm happy to see work in this space and would be willing = to >>>> AD-sponsor it upon a recommendation of either DISPATCH group, if = that is >>>> the recommendation. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> The authors of the prior HTTP SASL proposal also welcome this work = being >>> done. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> What are your recommendations towards this work? >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Thanks, >>> -Rick >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> --------- >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> A new version of I-D, draft-vanrein-httpauth-sasl-03.txt >>> has been successfully submitted by Rick van Rein and posted to the >>> IETF repository. >>>=20 >>> Name: draft-vanrein-httpauth-sasl >>> Revision: 03 >>> Title: HTTP Authentication with SASL >>> Document date: 2020-01-20 >>> Group: Individual Submission >>> Pages: 12 >>> URL: >>> = https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-vanrein-httpauth-sasl-03.txt >>> Status: >>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-vanrein-httpauth-sasl/ >>> Htmlized: = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-vanrein-httpauth-sasl-03 >>> Htmlized: >>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-vanrein-httpauth-sasl >>> Diff: >>> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-vanrein-httpauth-sasl-03 >>>=20 >>> Abstract: >>> Most application-level protocols standardise their authentication >>> exchanges under the SASL framework. HTTP has taken another course, >>> and often ends up replicating the work to allow individual >>> mechanisms. This specification adopts full SASL authentication into >>> HTTP. >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> dispatch mailing list >>> dispatch@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch >>=20 >=20 > -- > Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ >=20 > _______________________________________________ > dispatch mailing list > dispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch --Apple-Mail=_493B0A73-BC60-4138-A1D8-C3E591DFCC73 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEExW9rpd7ez4DexOFOgFZKbJXz1A0FAl5fFzgACgkQgFZKbJXz 1A3ZHg/9GohwB6GCeEYYFuWMBE49MkbUBkMd9OfRpk7NBf1Tx0S766p+AjmHTNPf QDldmELOmZV3adkQulljsP4uwTuKiroOHqEKH2JnTN35OsCwuIvEu1bJ0fmTFUWS vrYzy+AYm8cE/uek3j2vMDC+XAv7iK+rALpiYpLj575BkJ2lJBnTSigoBuq9Q1CK giEe9cAQ100+VviEVZ+ni2kmAAAoS2sm/KeJETE6RpwRx+b/Mal7caeZ3a7F7uhh TbnxM8ecWO69U0lin2kVBIApP+U3M8Ksd2UIRQaIzXgKrV4ghyrdLGcypixJkLYF FsioLt6F/SI1yuYMEYe/I338kMECTJzjobPQBojLyekxt/ksTJAJKRYukc+Etw1J 9fbBMdk+0XbYc+DyG1R7Q3EMPVzQke3Qjli5nvJW66gy4TabndntBzmYVQZ6XRNW 0jm+bwgM788omOf1CSS6wmu+zaCthuzIVrp4TQexOEewPcUfhAEokXOltGabc3Gc 8U4gXrgPlG3pgb8tqKfS0xoF+yxvADJFlkjk2HH3vNOKoWafAkmJYd60j3NWtOB6 eltuIagjbM7AGeydWltWVNN7tbu63/2Q1oSJYqoRkoLfWxLo0wrMhtLISgKcSU4E 0usj7vXhXIuG7Y3gp08RsOarcNUy49ChW5IIQew7yEhdjPFoeos= =/Gy+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_493B0A73-BC60-4138-A1D8-C3E591DFCC73-- From nobody Tue Mar 3 20:36:01 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31A193A0DEF for ; 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Tue, 3 Mar 2020 23:35:51 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.60.0.2.5\)) From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: <465193FE-E96E-4071-992C-6979BF97B9A5@nostrum.com> Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 15:35:48 +1100 Cc: DISPATCH WG , Tommy Pauly Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <6345FC22-45CC-46A2-8463-428317ACD9E5@mnot.net> References: <5E54D66F.5070902@openfortress.nl> <465193FE-E96E-4071-992C-6979BF97B9A5@nostrum.com> To: Ben Campbell X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.60.0.2.5) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] SASL Authentication for HTTP X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2020 04:36:00 -0000 In HTTPbis - I believe we can give it ~10 minutes. > On 4 Mar 2020, at 1:49 pm, Ben Campbell wrote: >=20 > Thanks Mark! By =E2=80=9Cshort presentation=E2=80=9D, were you = thinking in terms of doing so in HTTPBIS or DISPATCH? >=20 > Everyone: If you find this interesting, please comment soon. We will = be figuring out agendas really soon now, and Mark is correct that we = need to prioritize meeting time for things that have had list = discussion. >=20 > Thanks! >=20 > Ben. >=20 >> On Mar 3, 2020, at 7:24 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: >>=20 >> Hi Ben, >>=20 >> I think it belongs in HTTPbis, given that it's a HTTP extension - = unless someone is arguing that it deserves a separate WG. Given the = potential pitfalls in terms of integration (especially if things are = stateful), we need careful review by HTTP folks to make sure it doesn't = break anything. >>=20 >> However, we generally only adopt things when we have signs of = interest from implementers; so far we haven't seen that. So it'd be = good to see some more on-list discussion - in particular, it'd also be = good to understand what adding SASL to the mix of already existent HTTP = authentication mechanisms brings. >>=20 >> A short presentation or discussion at IETF107 might also help; I'm a = little wary of giving a time slot to a presentation with so little = on-list discussion, but if that makes things easier for DISPATCH, we can = manage that (provided IETF107 happens, of course). >>=20 >> Cheers, >>=20 >>=20 >>> On 4 Mar 2020, at 7:03 am, Ben Campbell wrote: >>>=20 >>> Hi, >>>=20 >>> Does anyone in DISPATCH (esp. our HTTP experts) have thoughts on = Rick=E2=80=99s draft? >>>=20 >>> I see that it had a small amount of discussion in HTTPBIS back in = January. Is this something that should be discussed in DISPATCH or does = it clearly belong to HTTPBIS? (I=E2=80=99ve copied the HTTPBIS chairs) >>>=20 >>> Thanks! >>>=20 >>> Ben. >>>=20 >>>> On Feb 25, 2020, at 2:10 AM, Rick van Rein = wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> Hello, >>>>=20 >>>> This draft proposes to introduce SASL as an authentication = mechanism >>>> into HTTP. Adding such mechanisms requires IETF Review according = to RFC >>>> 7235. >>>>=20 >>>> I don't know where to turn, and this has long stopped this proposal = from >>>> progressing. It has now been proposed to go through DISPATCH, as = this >>>> is more related to the binding with protocol headers than to SASL, = which >>>> itself is quite clear on requirements to its carrier. >>>>=20 >>>> I have been made aware that SASL in HTTP has been tried before; the >>>> reasons why that didn't finish 15 years ago are resolved in this = draft: >>>>=20 >>>> Scalability: >>>>=20 >>>> - stateless server side (server state relays through the client) >>>> - sequential messages distributed over connections is no problem >>>>=20 >>>> Security: >>>>=20 >>>> - no fixation on DIGEST-MD5 (compatibility pulls down security) >>>> - support for channel binding without fixating protocol layering >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Benjamin Kaduk noted my search for IETF mechanisms and responded = with: >>>>=20 >>>>> That said, I'm happy to see work in this space and would be = willing to >>>>> AD-sponsor it upon a recommendation of either DISPATCH group, if = that is >>>>> the recommendation. >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> The authors of the prior HTTP SASL proposal also welcome this work = being >>>> done. >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> What are your recommendations towards this work? >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Thanks, >>>> -Rick >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> --------- >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> A new version of I-D, draft-vanrein-httpauth-sasl-03.txt >>>> has been successfully submitted by Rick van Rein and posted to the >>>> IETF repository. >>>>=20 >>>> Name: draft-vanrein-httpauth-sasl >>>> Revision: 03 >>>> Title: HTTP Authentication with SASL >>>> Document date: 2020-01-20 >>>> Group: Individual Submission >>>> Pages: 12 >>>> URL: >>>> = https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-vanrein-httpauth-sasl-03.txt >>>> Status: >>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-vanrein-httpauth-sasl/ >>>> Htmlized: = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-vanrein-httpauth-sasl-03 >>>> Htmlized: >>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-vanrein-httpauth-sasl >>>> Diff: >>>> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-vanrein-httpauth-sasl-03 >>>>=20 >>>> Abstract: >>>> Most application-level protocols standardise their authentication >>>> exchanges under the SASL framework. HTTP has taken another course, >>>> and often ends up replicating the work to allow individual >>>> mechanisms. This specification adopts full SASL authentication = into >>>> HTTP. >>>>=20 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> dispatch mailing list >>>> dispatch@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch >>>=20 >>=20 >> -- >> Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> dispatch mailing list >> dispatch@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch >=20 -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Tue Mar 3 23:48:09 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 402B63A0747 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 2020 23:48:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.086 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.086 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_TEMPERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=openfortress.nl Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aJGWYP2gYMfK for ; Tue, 3 Mar 2020 23:48:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from lb2-smtp-cloud9.xs4all.net (lb2-smtp-cloud9.xs4all.net [194.109.24.26]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48F463A05AC for ; Tue, 3 Mar 2020 23:47:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from popmini.vanrein.org ([83.161.146.46]) by smtp-cloud9.xs4all.net with ESMTP id 9OkxjZDVE9Im29Okyj1kxJ; Wed, 04 Mar 2020 08:47:53 +0100 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=openfortress.nl; i=rick@openfortress.nl; q=dns/txt; s=fame; t=1583308062; h=message-id : date : from : mime-version : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding : date : from : subject; bh=j+Ev0vI6NgdWpunBY0ZhLT55k3snCKe8hGkqOkqIQfw=; b=WLkOmZUkPRw1pAh4zU9NQ2pbrGX6Tmehj7AzIv1YpfdfqHwtPhw5C0UU +WuZdGYnML5p0u+lmlgAYu/04nv7oJ00aCYwXLscO0HCvR+0KbbVsy4fpQ itRhAj2PmhGKjvNXbxNTZKSHJQDZPBHhQtA8Jiyb10yUEwzi8JaoaUWrE= Received: by fame.vanrein.org (Postfix, from userid 1006) id 1ECAC26DCF; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 07:47:35 +0000 (UTC) X-Original-To: dispatch@ietf.org Received: from airhead.local (phantom.vanrein.org [83.161.146.46]) by fame.vanrein.org (Postfix) with ESMTPA id F051326DCA; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 07:47:23 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <5E5F5D0A.9000001@openfortress.nl> Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2020 08:47:22 +0100 From: Rick van Rein User-Agent: Postbox 3.0.11 (Macintosh/20140602) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Nottingham CC: Ben Campbell , DISPATCH WG , Tommy Pauly References: <5E54D66F.5070902@openfortress.nl> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.2.3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Bogosity: Unsure, tests=bogofilter, spamicity=0.520000, version=1.2.4 X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfG48pAcj0EJhRP2gI7mSgJrZFiYLok1Tf9RFlorPk7SSVp1LkqxGp/9vs5Om31Pq1HrD2uygJ93bV6M7MlF4sfCyjQS79eAZrrGPXEMAMGm7HUazf+Yw f3O+v7c6tIm2NosEWrJiQuMFPSlbzlR2jwCj86xq6kryESGNaA6m0C3bG54cDEia4OmGH7GYGhGEeA== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] SASL Authentication for HTTP X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2020 07:48:08 -0000 Hello Mark/Ben, > I think it belongs in HTTPbis, given that it's a HTTP extension - unless someone is arguing that it deserves a separate WG. Given the potential pitfalls in terms of integration (especially if things are stateful), we need careful review by HTTP folks to make sure it doesn't break anything. That is indeed why I was suggested to turn to DISPATCH and not SECDISPATCH -- correct integration with the carrier HTTP is a bigger concern than the integration of carried SASL. At the very least, HTTPbis should not object to the specification. There was very little response when I proposed this in HTTPbis, though Daniel was quite interested. I am a little concerned that the low response could be because it reaches more into the future than the group is focussing on; and the same for the spec's motivation to have consistency across protocols and move towards integrated identity and realm crossover mechanismes. Those might be grounds to develop this elsewhere. A talk may help to tease this out; I will not be in Vancouver but intend to visit Madrid in July. > However, we generally only adopt things when we have signs of interest from implementers; so far we haven't seen that. So it'd be good to see some more on-list discussion - in particular, it'd also be good to understand what adding SASL to the mix of already existent HTTP authentication mechanisms brings. There has been a strong past interest in this, as I understand it, but it ran into technical difficulties such as server state that I solved and that are in fact now prohibited. I have long been unsure what to do with this spec, but a few years back I discussed the idea with Nginx' security lead who was interested. But mostly, I am writing this from the background of the project that I am chairing, and which needs this rather desparately. I'm scratching a personal itch :) The architecture we're working on is a new protocol stack for hosting providers, not the kind of people you will find here but they will be able to use this well; the core of the stack is an identity model with authentication and authorisation that spans between domains, using a few mechanisms of realm crossover. To make that happen, there is a need for some consistency across the board in protocols. The corner of Kerberos, GSS-API, SASL can fill this requirement, but HTTP is not so well-integrated with this authentiction technology (and its choice mechanisms) as other protocols are. We are actively building this into our software, and relying on the value it adds; we would like to make this official and generally usable. > A short presentation or discussion at IETF107 might also help; I'm a little wary of giving a time slot to a presentation with so little on-list discussion, but if that makes things easier for DISPATCH, we can manage that (provided IETF107 happens, of course). I will not be on 107, but plan to be at Madrid in July. FYI, there will be an update to this document, probably today, based on the feedback received in HTTPbis and a few other places. -Rick From nobody Tue Mar 3 23:55:47 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7D423A07B0; Tue, 3 Mar 2020 23:55:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=f762I6/P; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=nIxD+HMC Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9r-niYb86VmG; Tue, 3 Mar 2020 23:55:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com (out5-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D025F3A07A5; Tue, 3 Mar 2020 23:55:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17B1922245; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 02:55:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 04 Mar 2020 02:55:33 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h=from :content-type:mime-version:subject:date:references:cc:to :message-id; s=fm2; bh=L7Lon2nkcDnxtgTrkw2l4iSJYyTp/Lla69RMgxrke WU=; b=f762I6/P9t/+PMevLg/IHwfZWwvvdmaxo+19FpoW0xnNnyZeJJV/fzsPv EYesMz7kL6JIpdecbw+zBAok3+QCU9OwYldw8JVGpDaFx0HqwNicBxll+8m64wUv ApEXXZJoIuikjCIMxzc+pWAe0WDsRwrmuMlS4Kx0cNJ3OJkRxQN+cIxUFsZMtoyU nDfCSHMTwrZpqyeWYsFhT223iG+poKaI02DnWGuVMgaY9yyw/WJIvyW/hxS2uMFy h/A0hz9/TMDbqSnFVwzwAZosQZ7KljWx+AzEOGlKmcuG//LZHLc6U4M5y4ZMPjnO B8Hz4VVVHziBtVvOLTTOiYD7i8DRA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-type:date:from:message-id :mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy :x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=L7Lon2nkcDnxtgTrk w2l4iSJYyTp/Lla69RMgxrkeWU=; b=nIxD+HMCjM3sJNryY/dH9nuWt0hrp5ISe sdsogHJOnygf3kB10sCAA3mNtcMGxWnfrVROLdJecKVs9pu5v3HAmkeYD0K0tBmg nNsUBpYHp0BZ2AibUjfFfk6oAv5Nl9tU1KvFUMpH4fyhEAGoNBKHGauD6dMU4WM/ j1xivGjgL8HNFcjmXlmdbJKd9niV7qiEJc2HuyWJGdIV5efsi5omGnmYZXzQhwn1 A8zcg1Bowt1i4tkUIccOIn8LTPdqD874wA/bQ1s+MjFGqrYW4Df8ryNROLc6CQL5 v0LyPB3+o72qpqdhXEiv6oFPsBUhwGG/7HBx+65+inaSZfvJBWXxA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedugedruddtjedguddufecutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmd enucfjughrpefhtggguffffhfvkffosegrtdhmrehhtddvnecuhfhrohhmpeforghrkhcu pfhothhtihhnghhhrghmuceomhhnohhtsehmnhhothdrnhgvtheqnecuffhomhgrihhnpe hivghtfhdrohhrghdpmhhnohhtrdhnvghtpdhhthhtphgrphhishdrihhmnecukfhppedu udelrddujedrudehkedrvdehudenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmh epmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvght X-ME-Proxy: Received: from macbook-pro.mnot.net (unknown [119.17.158.251]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 858C23280060; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 02:55:30 -0500 (EST) From: Mark Nottingham Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_85A31A28-B6FE-4E98-946B-6E46D84786E4" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.60.0.2.5\)) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 18:55:28 +1100 References: <158330447591.7860.10082031861870991301@ietfa.amsl.com> Cc: ART Area To: DISPATCH WG Message-Id: <000C6DA3-F13E-4157-A93D-4429C5EC5BF2@mnot.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.60.0.2.5) Archived-At: Subject: [dispatch] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-nottingham-link-hint-02.txt X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2020 07:55:45 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_85A31A28-B6FE-4E98-946B-6E46D84786E4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Some folks might remember this spec; there was some discussion of it on = art@ in 2013.=20 Since then, I've had a stream of folks expressing interest in moving it = forward; they're not typical IETF folk, more people who work on HTTP = APIs. I'm not sure what to do with it - hence the ping to dispatch. Thoughts? Cheers, P.S. I'm remote for YVR, so I'll get up at 4am if need be to remote = present for ~5 minutes, but if this could be dispatched on-list, that = would be much appreciated... > Begin forwarded message: >=20 > From: internet-drafts@ietf.org > Subject: New Version Notification for = draft-nottingham-link-hint-02.txt > Date: 4 March 2020 at 5:47:55 pm AEDT > To: "Mark Nottingham" >=20 >=20 > A new version of I-D, draft-nottingham-link-hint-02.txt > has been successfully submitted by Mark Nottingham and posted to the > IETF repository. >=20 > Name: draft-nottingham-link-hint > Revision: 02 > Title: HTTP Link Hints > Document date: 2020-03-04 > Group: Individual Submission > Pages: 13 > URL: = https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-nottingham-link-hint-02.txt > Status: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-nottingham-link-hint/ > Htmlized: = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-nottingham-link-hint-02 > Htmlized: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-nottingham-link-hint > Diff: = https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-nottingham-link-hint-02 >=20 > Abstract: > This memo specifies "HTTP Link Hints", a mechanism for annotating = Web > links to HTTP(S) resources with information that otherwise might be > discovered by interacting with them. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of = submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >=20 > The IETF Secretariat >=20 >=20 -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ --Apple-Mail=_85A31A28-B6FE-4E98-946B-6E46D84786E4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Some = folks might remember this spec; there was some discussion of it on art@ = in 2013. 

Since = then, I've had a stream of folks expressing interest in moving it = forward; they're not typical IETF folk, more people who work on HTTP = APIs.

I'm not = sure what to do with it - hence the ping to dispatch. = Thoughts?

Cheers,

P.S. I'm remote for YVR, so I'll get up at 4am if need be to = remote present for ~5 minutes, but if this could be dispatched on-list, = that would be much appreciated...


Begin forwarded message:

From: = internet-drafts@ietf.org
Subject: = New Version = Notification for draft-nottingham-link-hint-02.txt
Date: = 4 March 2020 at 5:47:55 pm = AEDT
To: = "Mark Nottingham" <mnot@mnot.net>

A new version of I-D, draft-nottingham-link-hint-02.txt
has been successfully submitted by Mark Nottingham and posted = to the
IETF repository.

Name: = = draft-nottingham-link-hint
Revision: 02
Title:= = HTTP Link Hints
Document date: = 2020-03-04
Group: Individual Submission
Pages:= = 13
URL: =            https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-nottingham-link-hint= -02.txt
Status: =         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-nottingham-link-hint/
Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-nottingham-link-hint-02Htmlized:       https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-nottingham-link-hin= t
Diff: =           https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-nottingham-link-hint-= 02

Abstract:
=   This memo specifies "HTTP Link Hints", a mechanism for = annotating Web
  links to HTTP(S) resources = with information that otherwise might be
=   discovered by interacting with them.




Please note that = it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat



--
Mark Nottingham  =  https://www.mnot.net/

= --Apple-Mail=_85A31A28-B6FE-4E98-946B-6E46D84786E4-- From nobody Wed Mar 4 06:25:42 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 381A43A0FD8 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 06:25:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fastmail.fm header.b=ZO8q9Dq+; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=riIwF/4u Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4MLrVyOuqTcN for ; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 06:25:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5AB523A0FD7 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 06:25:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DD4353A; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 09:25:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from imap21 ([10.202.2.71]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 04 Mar 2020 09:25:36 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fastmail.fm; h= mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:from:to:cc :subject:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm2; bh=48N+c OJv3rA5QfG7BgVuwiqV6JpSBK1Dy1iu4YdoIG8=; b=ZO8q9Dq+2gE7Way1ST9Hz fM6OjRFTt6O9zgl+cfkq5pIXy8j8Zo3z7K/I4XpFQvnfCLJBEhn5gotzHWlpK6Bz YxFbiWmqrpkmje51QqDSODF1V7kkwKD3twfyWjvBCDVrqkB5f/rQi1o8afbXun0G omervkMRb2SAjg9ypmcBhVVum5unmOfZDbMEjrBvyaHzGeSnsThXgH2MpMTzdvR2 fJQpRH4FqglhDeJ6Qy9vfILa37s7lMHVVprvpkLHBdtiNlEbuN2cCGyhgoNeQy/I LtsXyd2QWJf56S9evBpVyVdUg9mfGCbQXEh4I8yJpRgh2JjcjLR2DUmnj20pLWqQ A== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=48N+cOJv3rA5QfG7BgVuwiqV6JpSBK1Dy1iu4YdoI G8=; b=riIwF/4uJMuiqWbwuKSdrNYzJyiilugUTPunfg/lPwiBqHEDSiAMHptY+ QSzztkXczK25lXLJ+eSeoFfgcXpHXGKTWaCtWTk1RlZSrGvvmTXkFeklrjFrstwG T+C5F/b+SKqnlWLaTx/jJAqGsYWiYalO4AitlMVTDo0SEeF5yGuSpht5jsUaD28V ygF4fgrvgo56AxjV5570HyIJzxo6Cb2LAiyspCAm/VTQBxAMryaus7eDv/Hyuhon Qkqr/aI325TetkChZO/kNffWgrEyXfQdcrOCCShPWBf2EKc54wjmqPk0h3/A2RQm MpMxXwQAHJZgcPri+IsVfAJus00MA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedugedruddtkedgieehucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhepofgfggfkjghffffhvffutgfgsehtqhertderreejnecuhfhrohhmpedftehl vgigvgihucfovghlnhhikhhovhdfuceorggrmhgvlhhnihhkohhvsehfrghsthhmrghilh drfhhmqeenucffohhmrghinhephhhtthhprghlfigrhihshhgrshhtohgsvghsphgvtghi rghlsggvtggruhhsvghithguohgvshhnthhhrghvvghsrghslhhsuhhpphhorhhtrdihoh hupdhirghnrgdrohhrghdphhhtthhpsghishgsrggtkhhinhhjrghnuhgrrhihrdhishdp ihgvthhfrdhorhhgpdguihhsphgrthgthhhmrghilhhinhhglhhishhtughishhprghttg hhihgvthhfrdhorhhgpdhmnhhothdrnhgvthenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecu rfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpegrrghmvghlnhhikhhovhesfhgrshhtmhgrihhlrd hfmh X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id 9D57E660060; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 09:25:35 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.1.7-986-gfc2d493-fmstable-20200304v3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <4d2b8267-1773-429f-8178-8c857f99f3f3@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: References: <5E54D66F.5070902@openfortress.nl> Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2020 14:25:15 +0000 From: "Alexey Melnikov" To: "Mark Nottingham" , "Ben Campbell" Cc: DISPATCH , "Tommy Pauly" Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] SASL Authentication for HTTP X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2020 14:25:40 -0000 On Wed, Mar 4, 2020, at 1:24 AM, Mark Nottingham wrote: > Hi Ben, >=20 > I think it belongs in HTTPbis, given that it's a HTTP extension -=20 > unless someone is arguing that it deserves a separate WG. Given the=20= > potential pitfalls in terms of integration (especially if things are=20= > stateful), we need careful review by HTTP folks to make sure it doesn'= t=20 > break anything. >=20 > However, we generally only adopt things when we have signs of interest= =20 > from implementers; so far we haven't seen that. So it'd be good to se= e=20 > some more on-list discussion - in particular, it'd also be good to=20 > understand what adding SASL to the mix of already existent HTTP=20 > authentication mechanisms brings. The advantage of SASL framework is that once a new SASL authentication m= echanism is added, it is immediately available in IMAP, SMTP, XMPP, LDAP= , POP3 and several other protocols. HTTP always has to be "special", bec= ause it doesn't have SASL support. You can see list of currently registered mechanism on IANA's website: > A short presentation or discussion at IETF107 might also help; I'm a=20= > little wary of giving a time slot to a presentation with so little=20 > on-list discussion, but if that makes things easier for DISPATCH, we=20= > can manage that (provided IETF107 happens, of course). >=20 > Cheers, >=20 >=20 > > On 4 Mar 2020, at 7:03 am, Ben Campbell wrote: > >=20 > > Hi, > >=20 > > Does anyone in DISPATCH (esp. our HTTP experts) have thoughts on Ric= k=E2=80=99s draft? > >=20 > > I see that it had a small amount of discussion in HTTPBIS back in Ja= nuary. Is this something that should be discussed in DISPATCH or does it= clearly belong to HTTPBIS? (I=E2=80=99ve copied the HTTPBIS chairs) > >=20 > > Thanks! > >=20 > > Ben. > >=20 > >> On Feb 25, 2020, at 2:10 AM, Rick van Rein w= rote: > >>=20 > >> Hello, > >>=20 > >> This draft proposes to introduce SASL as an authentication mechanis= m > >> into HTTP. Adding such mechanisms requires IETF Review according t= o RFC > >> 7235. > >>=20 > >> I don't know where to turn, and this has long stopped this proposal= from > >> progressing. It has now been proposed to go through DISPATCH, as t= his > >> is more related to the binding with protocol headers than to SASL, = which > >> itself is quite clear on requirements to its carrier. > >>=20 > >> I have been made aware that SASL in HTTP has been tried before; the= > >> reasons why that didn't finish 15 years ago are resolved in this dr= aft: > >>=20 > >> Scalability: > >>=20 > >> - stateless server side (server state relays through the client) > >> - sequential messages distributed over connections is no problem > >>=20 > >> Security: > >>=20 > >> - no fixation on DIGEST-MD5 (compatibility pulls down security) > >> - support for channel binding without fixating protocol layering > >>=20 > >>=20 > >> Benjamin Kaduk noted my search for IETF mechanisms and responded wi= th: > >>=20 > >>> That said, I'm happy to see work in this space and would be willin= g to > >>> AD-sponsor it upon a recommendation of either DISPATCH group, if t= hat is > >>> the recommendation. > >>=20 > >>=20 > >> The authors of the prior HTTP SASL proposal also welcome this work = being > >> done. > >>=20 > >>=20 > >> What are your recommendations towards this work? > >>=20 > >>=20 > >> Thanks, > >> -Rick > >>=20 > >>=20 > >> --------- > >>=20 > >>=20 > >> A new version of I-D, draft-vanrein-httpauth-sasl-03.txt > >> has been successfully submitted by Rick van Rein and posted to the > >> IETF repository. > >>=20 > >> Name: draft-vanrein-httpauth-sasl > >> Revision: 03 > >> Title: HTTP Authentication with SASL > >> Document date: 2020-01-20 > >> Group: Individual Submission > >> Pages: 12 > >> URL: > >> https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-vanrein-httpauth-sasl-03= .txt > >> Status: > >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-vanrein-httpauth-sasl/ > >> Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-vanrein-httpauth-= sasl-03 > >> Htmlized: > >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-vanrein-httpauth-sasl > >> Diff: > >> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-vanrein-httpauth-sasl-03 > >>=20 > >> Abstract: > >> Most application-level protocols standardise their authentication > >> exchanges under the SASL framework. HTTP has taken another course= , > >> and often ends up replicating the work to allow individual > >> mechanisms. This specification adopts full SASL authentication in= to > >> HTTP. > >>=20 > >> _______________________________________________ > >> dispatch mailing list > >> dispatch@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch > >=20 >=20 > -- > Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ >=20 > _______________________________________________ > dispatch mailing list > dispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch > From nobody Wed Mar 4 07:55:52 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 203103A11E2 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 07:55:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=openfortress.nl Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lyXAYc_lQL3S for ; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 07:55:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from lb1-smtp-cloud9.xs4all.net (lb1-smtp-cloud9.xs4all.net [194.109.24.22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BCB5C3A1212 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 07:55:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from popmini.vanrein.org ([83.161.146.46]) by smtp-cloud9.xs4all.net with ESMTP id 9WMzjcEtM9Im29WN0j4AVT; Wed, 04 Mar 2020 16:55:38 +0100 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=openfortress.nl; i=rick@openfortress.nl; q=dns/txt; s=fame; t=1583337328; h=message-id : date : from : mime-version : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding : date : from : subject; bh=DlAMaIU+DsqqE60oMM5NTUvm9Imlsdh7MPrW/nr0k7Y=; b=CtZq2dyzzXKSZZuo3Sf1d7pLvoEsh/t/poK/iQbkOaTyRrtHvzX/0SQj IJlp5SuNmmFP9xf266pLvYtpU2x+N6XeVLwcBn6AJyPSjaRfHh49GLrjvc ctIswIH+Sk7T/1xwRjS7kW1Y4N9tCkeAdiUniD2fDKqIv/ieXgu2ndrq8= Received: by fame.vanrein.org (Postfix, from userid 1006) id 1608D24D92; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 15:55:08 +0000 (UTC) X-Original-To: dispatch@ietf.org Received: from airhead.local (phantom.vanrein.org [83.161.146.46]) by fame.vanrein.org (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 7668424D93; Wed, 4 Mar 2020 15:55:03 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <5E5FCF56.3090601@openfortress.nl> Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2020 16:55:02 +0100 From: Rick van Rein User-Agent: Postbox 3.0.11 (Macintosh/20140602) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: DISPATCH WG CC: "Henri Manson (ARPA2)" , Daniel Stenberg References: <5E54D66F.5070902@openfortress.nl> In-Reply-To: <5E54D66F.5070902@openfortress.nl> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.2.3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Bogosity: Unsure, tests=bogofilter, spamicity=0.520000, version=1.2.4 X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfH37AaevNbB82oyKIAWFjlDNP7j9HNtBZ2OMSkHQxaG2iqWsijDLxMHeWVIPVwYPS5yL1MqWfO1NyuITFypZAfnxvJ0Ki7dIinPoRMznoDrbgPYRM1R+ k3ntC24OzxYF/MwDULCmCG88jH+FEJx11PJS7rOJytLKJZ32+HYf7xDTxiuSxkQmbG1rg45VktsNUg== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] SASL Authentication for HTTP X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2020 15:55:51 -0000 Hello DISPATCH, I uploaded a new version of the draft, taking on board feedback from the HTTPbis group (thanks, Daniel!). It now features an example run. -Rick Name: draft-vanrein-httpauth-sasl Revision: 04 Title: HTTP Authentication with SASL Document date: 2020-03-04 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 14 URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-vanrein-httpauth-sasl-04.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-vanrein-httpauth-sasl/ Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-vanrein-httpauth-sasl-04 Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-vanrein-httpauth-sasl Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-vanrein-httpauth-sasl-04 Abstract: Most application-level protocols standardise their authentication exchanges under the SASL framework. HTTP has taken another course, and often ends up replicating the work to allow individual mechanisms. This specification adopts full SASL authentication into HTTP. CHANGELOG: CHANGES FROM 03 TO 04: * Made the "realm" field optional; that is what RFC 7235 seems to suggest * Removed the "text" field; it is not SASL-specific; could be a security risk * Fields c2s and s2c are base64-encoded and are absent in lieu of a SASL token * Dropped userview= to make it an orthogonal HTTP User: header * Added an example run (that was a very useful suggestion!) * Confirmed the Authentication-Info header in the Final 200 Response * Changed envvar SASL_CLIENTID to the customary name REMOTE_USER * Replaced 403 Forbidden with a repeated response asking for authentication * Renamed Final 200 to Positive Response, Final 403 to Negative Response From nobody Fri Mar 6 01:45:45 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 437463A0B6B for ; Fri, 6 Mar 2020 01:45:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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boundary="_000_CWXP123MB2998F067F36C29EF28756904DBE30CWXP123MB2998GBRP_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 8353fca2-3bf3-49c7-f3e4-08d7c1b31a51 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 06 Mar 2020 09:45:28.0333 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: a7f35688-9c00-4d5e-ba41-29f146377ab0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 2feEHcioZLW6Hgh4PFT3h5mhjvfTEmMy3zl/AjPtKxdJdwhSc1srfAxN4itouzZr9Kgz0anruhPFgtfiB9Lmrw== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CWXP123MB2661 X-OriginatorOrg: bt.com Archived-At: Subject: [dispatch] Internet Draft: Session Initiation Protocol (SIP) Non-eXempt Rate Control X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2020 09:45:41 -0000 --_000_CWXP123MB2998F067F36C29EF28756904DBE30CWXP123MB2998GBRP_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Previously I sent this to the more general ietf list by mistake, so now rep= eating, correctly directed: When we came to consider implementation and deployment of RFC7415 (SIP Rate= Control), two important issues arose that are solved by this I-D; firstly = concerning SIP priorities and the need to exempt specified critical message= s; secondly a solution for roll-out in (very likely) heterogeneous network = environments with non-compliant sources of traffic, the need for which is h= ighlighted in RFC7339 (section 5.10.2). The method is a minor variation on = the method defined by RFC7415 with oc-algo parameter value "rate", by intro= ducing a new oc-algo value "nxrate", and an enhanced rate restriction algor= ithm, which fits neatly within the SOC protocol framework defined by RFC733= 9 (SIP Overload Control). We have just extended the family, as was a possib= ility envisaged by section 4.2 of RFC7339. Full details can be found in the= I-D: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-williams-soc-nxrate-control which was submitted last October. The SOC WG concluded in 2015 so I am prop= osing that the I-D should be moved to the sipcore WG for review and further= consideration. Regards, Phil Williams (BT) --_000_CWXP123MB2998F067F36C29EF28756904DBE30CWXP123MB2998GBRP_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Previously I sent this to the more general ietf list by mistake, so no= w repeating, correctly directed:
&nbs= p;
When we came to consider implementation and deployment of RFC7415 (SIP= Rate Control), two important issues arose that are solved by this I-D; fir= stly concerning SIP priorities and the need to exempt specified critical me= ssages; secondly a solution for roll-out in (very likely) heterogeneous network environments with non-compl= iant sources of traffic, the need for which is highlighted in RFC7339 (sect= ion 5.10.2). The method is a minor variation on the method defined by RFC74= 15 with oc-algo parameter value “rate”, by introducing a new oc-algo value “nxrate”= , and an enhanced rate restriction algorithm, which fits neatly within the = SOC protocol framework defined by RFC7339 (SIP Overload Control). We have j= ust extended the family, as was a possibility envisaged by section 4.2 of RFC7339. Full details can be found in the I-D:
 
&nbs= p;
which was submitted last October. The SOC WG concluded in 2015 so I am= proposing that the I-D should be moved to the sipcore WG for review and fu= rther consideration.
 
Regards,
 
Phil Williams (BT)
&nbs= p;
 --_000_CWXP123MB2998F067F36C29EF28756904DBE30CWXP123MB2998GBRP_-- From nobody Fri Mar 6 11:27:16 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietf.org Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E04A3A0846; Fri, 6 Mar 2020 11:27:14 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: dispatch@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.119.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dispatch@ietf.org Message-ID: <158352283395.2221.17202487318617027214@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2020 11:27:14 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [dispatch] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dispatch-javascript-mjs-06.txt X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2020 19:27:14 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Dispatch WG of the IETF. Title : ECMAScript Media Types Updates Authors : Matthew A. Miller Myles Borins Mathias Bynens Bradley Farias Filename : draft-ietf-dispatch-javascript-mjs-06.txt Pages : 27 Date : 2020-03-06 Abstract: This document updates the ECMAScript media types, replacing the existing registrations for "application/javascript" and "text/ javascript" with information and requirements aligned with implementation experiences. This document obsoletes RFC4329, "Scripting Media Types". The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dispatch-javascript-mjs/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dispatch-javascript-mjs-06 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-dispatch-javascript-mjs-06 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-dispatch-javascript-mjs-06 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Fri Mar 6 12:05:33 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D01E63A091B for ; Fri, 6 Mar 2020 12:05:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=outer-planes-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6qP414HcTRJy for ; Fri, 6 Mar 2020 12:05:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-il1-x12a.google.com (mail-il1-x12a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A57023A0909 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 2020 12:05:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-il1-x12a.google.com with SMTP id b17so3188194iln.3 for ; Fri, 06 Mar 2020 12:05:28 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=outer-planes-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=subject:to:references:from:autocrypt:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=5BqKHRe0Gc6YhvO4frYuLEgo/Ku3iIi5dG7xEj+rCz4=; b=AAq+xEhQH8hAsLNhXeRKBpp+cmKtLKS1HvsjOg84XRqUlqIWCsveMDjS9r7E9rfpe1 e9imblyNRulXgtgVliH1ZgI1UVOcplk+QRsUq7y9s46ihRPv0ezE3QshfIFAHNyhGa4w NjrfKEC4/0CWJGNNDVPlBhqmy2JAX89JhJKrTDYBe6skd3pOpPIeHi8iW0+xHjScp3sI mNGxNNdK7eEEnTyuhN1k1VBfiefycq8Fs2wzyNzBklmpa1jhE7BkWgXiFd5MRZi/WS4g mkylG6W0avejPZJIKjdjGj0Jk5EA+67AW0JJOZ+fn2sfD6w2ySBBFcsWgvJ97FMitore ITvQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:autocrypt:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=5BqKHRe0Gc6YhvO4frYuLEgo/Ku3iIi5dG7xEj+rCz4=; b=AKTYtRMRp1Q0+ddd0LRRK2ityx/Mc7s7ilzaXz2eJDJGSYl1mrYpCbEPZUJCiLuTXy gMzp1Lk8/p9irjIcOdOsGE2P9yLhQfzanbehfgwM4/wO3FDhxPm5A+4rx8oL1p1NVieY HjF7pQZNSpJrBa00Kc1P/IGXwt1m+Y5OfWoxeDRE3VnWMjV+QMPRi35XxkjUNKwPzr/r b7eA2FAlzpClhmnoQvEqlj75eJWsUwJ7TTt+FNHdzLhCOQBwBc+7akKksiuqSbbvbjFu b5xrbR19p//k0VfYhknEP5C42P4ZF252qnA+tuQwxqzct4p5gD3bGwLVSlhOWZAaCpTP qjoA== X-Gm-Message-State: ANhLgQ09ShXBxzuIWPw8/OyhoMf3c1VGJYW9wyPyrpdo3UZ9W4OLHXl/ 474TosJ8cn4m3co1whhq7JDKT7TXhpXwPw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADFU+vto84dLKikvsXmgFUiPXbBIuQ89htuxrAdI9QfHOdBnxgxLSHdmsf/uzilRefQJjwDkiEijtA== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:c94:: with SMTP id b20mr4579451ile.282.1583525127373; Fri, 06 Mar 2020 12:05:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from mmiller-44677.local ([207.126.127.114]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id c8sm8305238iod.14.2020.03.06.12.05.26 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 06 Mar 2020 12:05:26 -0800 (PST) To: dispatch@ietf.org References: <158352283395.2221.17202487318617027214@ietfa.amsl.com> From: "Matthew A. Miller" Autocrypt: addr=linuxwolf+ietf@outer-planes.net; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQENBFJoAooBCADQmEtpbpY/4wTeKgZIuyG7HkxIFgiUeqOvtiBKj/pCA73d7Q5hCvQdGcKJ 6uZsYz3Il9oKoKFxVt90iEXspbE39g6ek19e6RsB4j0Q10l4QvH+EqeD760gs0H2yf/eYj9i uk9/VY6axdQlPsmid1zoQgCNjSM7X4/K26WGMs03sbXJpKdoonelzIlJSNfzi0q546iplo72 D2cCm9BriMkQvcGnsm4B9eBIBn3GKmVx1tsmPNeNTyun2DvaLnrYxbA0Ivo1DzZReds9NZ25 uROI/+b+lcg9/kmHzhK+q8NMQCFWmqpS/lZRKxVBSijKGpGr5h8VLVf5iURHtwG+B/QxABEB AAG0M01hdHRoZXcgQS4gTWlsbGVyIDxsaW51eHdvbGYraWV0ZkBvdXRlci1wbGFuZXMubmV0 PokBVAQTAQoAPgIbAwULCQgHAwUVCgkICwUWAgMBAAIeAQIXgBYhBDHXWI3skGkNa8yY4Oz0 ck4QngW7BQJeDg4fBQkVMJSlAAoJEOz0ck4QngW7XCcH/RBVW3Nd0ezXtL9XSn5DHJxRTb5q 6ZVIBQgVIMcH2DVzO/aCs3o1ECONHAazVGQ9b6cwHCtPWJpM0ENGx7DERa/Ay4vDeKXc1TEX VuukdGrX2zWOaFHDT/oU1SEg0C+f3JGnaTwYQ7i2KXkFuYNmqROkB+Z0PDaLu4biCYdjhkIm Yu3frzySHhEX2VVMcJA6lcqdBTE3j2+ywQ7icpiWUcvLuhCeuFER1JjTRchcXwtuiOAKPQCZ BM9B70Q73hiKKK4ylNjhLFKGomkWDqsQ6sAENn6YkWyBuXNr5Y66uFxFS0VY938o/ZoXw4tb qUIdBzMnHkHxxiNUUBb6dPkaEGO5AQ0EUmgCigEIAMD+u4fBiVDul2Mljq3CRlwyZ52RA0vq vm00F5CTBWu+K1SMdMoqKmPEHaQSRRmjE+AwjWHv96cOtWUwwyqrpEgnzof7LHXfM0hk0GUl +ZUeAePtNPyylroD+ohxx2IhE2wVW+W8XGkfyxONVsd89h7Ft05HmQellZPNjE3JUtcwrmN6 fQHgr6+NuAUkC+ygt/MtnkHPeRvp2m7FQ3OqEPKGTn9Q9oIgW9lYG2JEqaSo/ASrwbZowmrl nhKvwJGSmgwHbmvEI9LxH4HKIfGmr5TyYq6o9WDUsnNwDuEeaazxoE3qXFKVvIqfMSDwBaCV 37r7GUle7lT9+oMAKVOPmZ8AEQEAAYkBPAQYAQoAJgIbDBYhBDHXWI3skGkNa8yY4Oz0ck4Q ngW7BQJeM+W5BQkPjlg/AAoJEOz0ck4QngW7a+IIANBU7R3t17LKflQo3nSUoqMBLkjxo9/e yzKAb3u0Fjb5md+9ESrFb03w1ZUkKLh/b6leTFq50IJbfxgDlVgkTn/j0XPOmIHpfDtVYPnA /rI5sqMzjb3qFOPFZFX9Til360uv9Zc5mlkJcM57X4aLRl7wSGRXPqh7v356s+JlvLF8rBtZ 7LU5SrCWeoWZu/7NvqW+UNEOOP2xAlOId4BeYWflkpzNcSPkhAkD2Xvw/GmyOm24Im7Ef2O5 scQhEO/dG+3jU4QnSGFtLXHndHpNM20vD6T+uWUpyp5g27KrIHApWq9M3o6KR68pTOLJrMxc th8xmHLOpuWVAKEABNQRDfE= Message-ID: Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2020 13:05:25 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <158352283395.2221.17202487318617027214@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dispatch-javascript-mjs-06.txt X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2020 20:05:31 -0000 This revision *finally* marks RFC 4329 as obsolete instead of merely updated. While a tremendously large diff, substantively it should not be much different from the previous revision. With this round, the authors recommend one more last call to check on our work. - m&m Matthew A. Miller On 20/03/06 12:27, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. > This draft is a work item of the Dispatch WG of the IETF. > > Title : ECMAScript Media Types Updates > Authors : Matthew A. Miller > Myles Borins > Mathias Bynens > Bradley Farias > Filename : draft-ietf-dispatch-javascript-mjs-06.txt > Pages : 27 > Date : 2020-03-06 > > Abstract: > This document updates the ECMAScript media types, replacing the > existing registrations for "application/javascript" and "text/ > javascript" with information and requirements aligned with > implementation experiences. This document obsoletes RFC4329, > "Scripting Media Types". > > > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dispatch-javascript-mjs/ > > There are also htmlized versions available at: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dispatch-javascript-mjs-06 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-dispatch-javascript-mjs-06 > > A diff from the previous version is available at: > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-dispatch-javascript-mjs-06 > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > > > _______________________________________________ > dispatch mailing list > dispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch > From nobody Sat Mar 7 15:14:52 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FA6E3A1C64 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 2020 15:14:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.279 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.279 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_MIME_NO_HTML_TAG=0.377, MIME_HTML_ONLY=0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=yandex.ru Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wTceJZX1WpAp for ; Sat, 7 Mar 2020 15:14:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from forward105o.mail.yandex.net (forward105o.mail.yandex.net [IPv6:2a02:6b8:0:1a2d::608]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DF1F33A1C63 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 2020 15:14:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from mxback17g.mail.yandex.net (mxback17g.mail.yandex.net [IPv6:2a02:6b8:0:1472:2741:0:8b7:317]) by forward105o.mail.yandex.net (Yandex) with ESMTP id 4FC484200B67 for ; Sun, 8 Mar 2020 02:14:46 +0300 (MSK) Received: from localhost (localhost [::1]) by mxback17g.mail.yandex.net (mxback/Yandex) with ESMTP id ZBKipaU58W-EjM43dsB; Sun, 08 Mar 2020 02:14:45 +0300 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yandex.ru; s=mail; t=1583622885; bh=OLCVokV35ZDSrtV1At+2YreoJxJiVKkCe1FxKG/Dobw=; h=Message-Id:Date:Subject:To:From; b=TmJS3vHj3idVikMkVrSCWacuDiU6jORpvUYzs4VRceVpeajo3MNk7t4AXYJZ0sX60 CK8qgwI9BZNSGC1tqQ29C77NdQM9rKVkuquAfQOgg4dML30V+Pck2xomjrVk7GyzCb JsftIWu1UP2cByqkMxhE0qXbE9sFWY3ic1jV7mWU= Authentication-Results: mxback17g.mail.yandex.net; dkim=pass header.i=@yandex.ru Received: by iva4-0814df7d67c8.qloud-c.yandex.net with HTTP; Sun, 08 Mar 2020 02:14:45 +0300 From: Anton Tveretin To: DISPATCH list MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Yamail [ http://yandex.ru ] 5.0 Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2020 04:14:45 +0500 Message-Id: <3231931583612586@myt6-09be74140f25.qloud-c.yandex.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/html Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] RIPT X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 07 Mar 2020 23:14:51 -0000
Hello All,
I do not know current status, so I post here. First, our (SIP 2.5 vs RIPT) paths diverge. I have 15 notes (I may add) on drafts, will post them later.
One of the first notes: avoid the word "cloud", see: www.gnu.org/philosophy/words-to-avoid.html
Also, QoS is the pet peeve of the SIP.
To be continued (since 2013-08-25)...
Sincerely yours,
Anton.
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charset="UTF-8" Hi Anton ript has its own bof coming up at ietf107 (with its own mailing list) - https://datatracker.ietf.org/group/ript/about/ -Patrick On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 6:15 PM Anton Tveretin wrote: > Hello All, > I do not know current status, so I post here. First, our (SIP 2.5 vs RIPT) > paths diverge. I have 15 notes (I may add) on drafts, will post them later. > One of the first notes: avoid the word "cloud", see: > www.gnu.org/philosophy/words-to-avoid.html > Also, QoS is the pet peeve of the SIP. > To be continued (since 2013-08-25)... > Sincerely yours, > Anton. > _______________________________________________ > dispatch mailing list > dispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch > --0000000000000f4b5705a059cd2a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Anton

ript has its own bof coming up= at ietf107 (with its own mailing list) -=C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/group/ript/abou= t/

-Patrick


On Sat, Mar 7,= 2020 at 6:15 PM Anton Tveretin <tveretinas@yandex.ru> wrote:
Hello All,
I do not know current status= , so I post here. First, our (SIP 2.5 vs RIPT) paths diverge. I have 15 not= es (I may add) on drafts, will post them later.
One of the first = notes: avoid the word "cloud", see: www.gnu.org/philosophy/w= ords-to-avoid.html
Also, QoS is the pet peeve of the SIP.
To be continued (since 2013-08-25)...
Sincerely yours,
Anton.
_______________________________________________
dispatch mailing list
dispatch@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
--0000000000000f4b5705a059cd2a-- From bogdan.moldovan@axigen.com Tue Mar 10 04:18:35 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 940EA3A10CD for ; Tue, 10 Mar 2020 04:18:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=axigen.com; domainkeys=pass (2048-bit key) header.from=bogdan.moldovan@axigen.com header.d=axigen.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pfWrYoT6bc8K for ; Tue, 10 Mar 2020 04:18:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from us1.axigen.com (us1.axigen.com [184.173.55.100]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C53993A10CC for ; Tue, 10 Mar 2020 04:18:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.axigen.lan (193.230.245.5) by us1.axigen.com (Axigen) with (TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 encrypted) ESMTPS id 23EBB7; Tue, 10 Mar 2020 13:18:32 +0200 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=axigen.com; s=axigencom2017qgo; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; h=from:date:to:cc:message-id:subject; bh=sI4dm/PohzsGHgGmWJZctSkxZp5gxmZOtl793mwDQ98=; b=l57k8TWDBmO/EsFH9+cVl+60VETXp0qbFtFUql6RZpLmXtxZ4bDe5/6HB+650pavPSrm/WxOamJ1yAn1oY7SxF09TsIm3LJ423KAxldz+eMbBHqkgdcjUDtQcISjrRfxwXsbXZyK1MPBLDjsZLeC+n0j0mpovGUeFxePKtURkCEMLhwmZXj9HN4TmEHA6/BjgZTuViEi272LN3gY3SjOrQb0qBv39aBQG6NCjpVMfHl3VEX02AAI8sxT3xccAcc8hBOGXlVVSTqNiOaVGRDc+sBxn9X1ryCqf8kLLcAyjGoQmMPVK9Bwtdr2yfN1/rqtmuRr8ux8VAt+Nz1liON2Vw==; DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; b=nxTDAshkXUpuIE4LvnniIxGsCLWWwJKPZL8gGwt+VRDFLRBxkp46H2OKUQhdDkLEovvrtyHIFZ+RUHIYZNFnbEQt7vbpLSFZt9tTgkpHeB0FUJDuKCpKasgwPmFq+IdMLTe2dQA914TdPYwawtD57i4PzBHn5CqItIK3WnI1ld2xN3b7VVAlVsLS6npAbZcCNTElWfhdtTfKfwvM2NPjeeC+YuUof0uhjj2nKtSlMdqcCryl2XmQUQviGgWvUmkqXcepRtx72tMELU/Euq4BItQMNS8F391UigKZi2TcxCNo2YobBCc9sOiDDbkkoNclznzksna/KYbO2BBY9cqitA==; c=nofws; q=dns; d=axigen.com; s=axigencom2017qgo; h=from:date:to:message-id:subject:cc; From: Bogdan Moldovan Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 13:18:29 +0200 X-Mailer: Axigen WebMail To: dispatch@ietf.org Reply-To: Bogdan Moldovan Message-ID: <1583839109629222126@axigen.com> Importance: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="===axigen=5142606891668883822258501559394417069520=axigen===" X-Mailer-AuthIP: 192.168.0.1 X-Mailer-EhloHost: axigen.com DomainKey-Status: good DKIM-Status: good X-CTCH-RefID: str=0001.0A0C0213.5E677786.0069, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0 X-CTCH-Flags: 0 X-CTCH-AV-ThreatsCount: 0 X-CTCH-VOD: Unknown X-CTCH-Spam: Unknown Received-SPF: pass (axigen.com: domain of bogdan.moldovan@axigen.com designates 193.230.245.5 as permitted sender) client-ip=193.230.245.5; envelope-from=bogdan.moldovan@axigen.com; mechanism=ip4; identity=mailfrom; receiver=us1.axigen.com; X-AXIGEN-SPF-Result: Ok X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.84 on 184.173.55.100 Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 06:35:07 -0700 Subject: [dispatch] Email Security - Flow and Mailbox X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 11:19:27 -0000 This is a MIME message. You may need a MIME compliant mail user agent. --===axigen=5142606891668883822258501559394417069520=axigen=== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline =E2=80=8B=E2=80=8BAxigen is commercial software for self hosting email or f= or mailbox hosting providers.=20 It is an all in one platform.=20 We therefore are very interested in both flow and mailbox access email secu= rity measures.=20 We've implemented 2FA for our WebMail access. We've been looking XOAUTH2 and OAUTHBEARER for additional mailbox access le= vel controls. Currently, we've been also reading about CLIENTID and its dra= ft: https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-yu-imap-client-id-03.txt What does it take to push this forward? Bogdan --===axigen=5142606891668883822258501559394417069520=axigen=== Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8BAxigen is commercial so= ftware for self hosting email or for mailbox hosting providers. 
It is an all in one platform. 

<= div style=3D"font-family: "Source Sans Pro", sans-serif; font-siz= e: 10pt;">We therefore are very interested in both flow and mailbox access = email security measures. 

We've i= mplemented 2FA for our WebMail access.

We've been looking XO= AUTH2 and OAUTHBEARER for additional mailbox access level controls. Cu= rrently, we've been also reading about CLIENTID and its draft: https:/= /www.ietf.org/id/draft-yu-imap-client-id-03.txt

What does it take to push this= forward?

Bogdan
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Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1583839109629222126@axigen.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="PCpACnU02tCBiNOaAz9XVzGd2gAdbd0Yb" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] Email Security - Flow and Mailbox X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 14:39:00 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --PCpACnU02tCBiNOaAz9XVzGd2gAdbd0Yb Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="HNEZzpBEdy7EAOIsRM8y9Kz8bS7FPmlR2"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Bogdan Moldovan , dispatch@ietf.org Message-ID: <13410cd6-bdf2-ace2-cd7b-e5cafba36336@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [dispatch] Email Security - Flow and Mailbox References: <1583839109629222126@axigen.com> In-Reply-To: <1583839109629222126@axigen.com> --HNEZzpBEdy7EAOIsRM8y9Kz8bS7FPmlR2 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------5196D3CDD74C670D46C0AFEC" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------5196D3CDD74C670D46C0AFEC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, On 10/03/2020 11:18, Bogdan Moldovan wrote: > =E2=80=8B=E2=80=8BAxigen is commercial software for self hosting email = or for mailbox hosting providers.=20 > It is an all in one platform.=20 >=20 > We therefore are very interested in both flow and mailbox access email = security measures.=20 >=20 > We've implemented 2FA for our WebMail access. >=20 > We've been looking XOAUTH2 and OAUTHBEARER for additional mailbox acces= s level controls. Currently, we've been also reading about CLIENTID and i= ts draft: https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-yu-imap-client-id-03.txt >=20 >=20 > What does it take to push this forward? I guess that'll depend a bit on whether the IETF f2f meeting goes ahead, and if not, what replaces it. We should know more about that in the coming days. I would support having a virtual BoF for this topic though, (meaning 2FA for IMAP and similar) should that seem like a good plan to the dispatch/secdispatch chairs and relevant ADs. I think there's real demand, a real security win possible and it'd be worth finding out if there's a mechanism that all the main service providers would find acceptable. Cheers, S. >=20 >=20 > Bogdan >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > dispatch mailing list > dispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch >=20 --------------5196D3CDD74C670D46C0AFEC Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nem CP5PMvmh5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kT q0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtE gvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy +pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5 iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9 to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJgb097ZaNyuY1ETghV B5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k4LyM2lp5 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h=from:date:to:cc:message-id:subject; From: Bogdan Moldovan Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 16:54:39 +0200 X-Mailer: Axigen WebMail To: Stephen Farrell Cc: dispatch@ietf.org Reply-To: Bogdan Moldovan Message-ID: <1583852079769515316@axigen.com> In-Reply-To: <13410cd6-bdf2-ace2-cd7b-e5cafba36336@cs.tcd.ie> References: <1583839109629222126@axigen.com> <13410cd6-bdf2-ace2-cd7b-e5cafba36336@cs.tcd.ie> Importance: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="===axigen=6024437920805636298753646976738775103935=axigen===" X-Mailer-AuthIP: 192.168.0.1 X-Mailer-EhloHost: axigen.com DomainKey-Status: good DKIM-Status: good X-CTCH-RefID: str=0001.0A0C020B.5E67AA2F.005B, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0 X-CTCH-Flags: 0 X-CTCH-AV-ThreatsCount: 0 X-CTCH-VOD: Unknown X-CTCH-Spam: Unknown Received-SPF: pass (axigen.com: domain of bogdan.moldovan@axigen.com designates 193.230.245.5 as permitted sender) client-ip=193.230.245.5; envelope-from=bogdan.moldovan@axigen.com; mechanism=ip4; identity=mailfrom; receiver=us1.axigen.com; X-AXIGEN-SPF-Result: Ok X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.84 on 184.173.55.100 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] Email Security - Flow and Mailbox X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 14:54:51 -0000 This is a MIME message. You may need a MIME compliant mail user agent. --===axigen=6024437920805636298753646976738775103935=axigen=== Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Hi, On Tue, 10/03/2020 04:38 PM, Stephen Farrell wr= ote: >=20 > What does it take to push this forward? >=20 > I guess that'll depend a bit on whether the IETF f2f > meeting goes ahead, and if not, what replaces it. We > should know more about that in the coming days. >=20 >=20 Curious to see how that unfolds...=20 >=20 > I would support having a virtual BoF for this topic > though, (meaning 2FA for IMAP and similar) should > that seem like a good plan to the dispatch/secdispatch > chairs and relevant ADs. I think there's real demand, > a real security win possible and it'd be worth finding > out if there's a mechanism that all the main service > providers would find acceptable. >=20 >=20 Should such a virtual BoF be scheduled, how could I get involved?=20 B/ --===axigen=6024437920805636298753646976738775103935=axigen=== Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Hi,

On Tue, 10/03= /2020 04:38 PM, Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>= wrote:
> What does it take to push t= his forward?

I guess that'll depend a bit on whether the IETF f2fmeeting goes ahead, and if not, what replaces it. We
should know more a= bout that in the coming days.

Curious to see how that unfolds... 

I would support having a virtual BoF for this topicthough, (meaning 2FA for IMAP and similar) should
that seem like a goo= d plan to the dispatch/secdispatch
chairs and relevant ADs. I think ther= e's real demand,
a real security win possible and it'd be worth finding<= br>out if there's a mechanism that all the main service
providers would = find acceptable.

= Should such a virtual BoF be scheduled, how could I get involved? 

B/
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Tue, 10 Mar 2020 08:05:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB160BDCF; Tue, 10 Mar 2020 15:05:26 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rUYNOw6fWnkt; Tue, 10 Mar 2020 15:05:21 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [10.244.2.119] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3F902BE24; Tue, 10 Mar 2020 15:05:21 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1583852721; bh=jNCOVBP8X4g48ZqQXCjBObwceRvEGCWkbb+5481PmEk=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=12+cWicoGVDqT/0Mj69P7xBcIo+cPWGlB9/gasoz5MWjD22KRtZvZ8DKz756yJTOP XscG/WNvYywnp4ReECJI/a7trJabBALF11Zu0aifPqZc7xasbbwQJubdwhNuBTnPvA fS92wjDslcxmlbER3QdGNZFiFg0zIEwG0puVOmD4= To: Bogdan Moldovan Cc: dispatch@ietf.org References: <1583839109629222126@axigen.com> <13410cd6-bdf2-ace2-cd7b-e5cafba36336@cs.tcd.ie> <1583852079769515316@axigen.com> From: Stephen Farrell Autocrypt: addr=stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie; 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Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1583852079769515316@axigen.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="ZYctiPLf67JJbx5H3pF3BHEyKc4XhNnDN" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] Email Security - Flow and Mailbox X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 15:05:38 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --ZYctiPLf67JJbx5H3pF3BHEyKc4XhNnDN Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="D4NH89CmGDsixf6xlDPSgt5NVdGaEt3tL"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Bogdan Moldovan Cc: dispatch@ietf.org Message-ID: <4703501d-1bbb-a75e-8664-a6c989345e31@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [dispatch] Email Security - Flow and Mailbox References: <1583839109629222126@axigen.com> <13410cd6-bdf2-ace2-cd7b-e5cafba36336@cs.tcd.ie> <1583852079769515316@axigen.com> In-Reply-To: <1583852079769515316@axigen.com> --D4NH89CmGDsixf6xlDPSgt5NVdGaEt3tL Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------1DAD435B9DD824B4B1813E01" Content-Language: en-US This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------1DAD435B9DD824B4B1813E01 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 10/03/2020 14:54, Bogdan Moldovan wrote: > Should such a virtual BoF be scheduled, how could I get involved?=20 Usually there'd be a mailing list announced some time before. 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Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=axigen.com; domainkeys=pass (2048-bit key) header.from=bogdan.moldovan@axigen.com header.d=axigen.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5vY__0QvDzgH for ; Tue, 10 Mar 2020 08:08:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from us1.axigen.com (us1.axigen.com [184.173.55.100]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8AEBB3A1439 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 2020 08:08:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.axigen.lan (193.230.245.5) by us1.axigen.com (Axigen) with (TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 encrypted) ESMTPS id 1834C0; Tue, 10 Mar 2020 17:08:05 +0200 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=axigen.com; s=axigencom2017qgo; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; h=from:date:to:cc:message-id:subject; bh=6O03ohYDZD5QCuGzzbBDH+mqrSWgEItsR7K3F7wPHBE=; 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<1583852883642095489@axigen.com> In-Reply-To: <4703501d-1bbb-a75e-8664-a6c989345e31@cs.tcd.ie> References: <1583839109629222126@axigen.com> <13410cd6-bdf2-ace2-cd7b-e5cafba36336@cs.tcd.ie> <1583852079769515316@axigen.com> <4703501d-1bbb-a75e-8664-a6c989345e31@cs.tcd.ie> Importance: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="===axigen=3794012022429245343776569643840490221573=axigen===" X-Mailer-AuthIP: 192.168.0.1 X-Mailer-EhloHost: axigen.com DomainKey-Status: good DKIM-Status: good X-CTCH-RefID: str=0001.0A0C0212.5E67AD53.003E, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0 X-CTCH-Flags: 0 X-CTCH-AV-ThreatsCount: 0 X-CTCH-VOD: Unknown X-CTCH-Spam: Unknown Received-SPF: pass (axigen.com: domain of bogdan.moldovan@axigen.com designates 193.230.245.5 as permitted sender) client-ip=193.230.245.5; envelope-from=bogdan.moldovan@axigen.com; mechanism=ip4; identity=mailfrom; receiver=us1.axigen.com; X-AXIGEN-SPF-Result: Ok X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.84 on 184.173.55.100 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] Email Security - Flow and Mailbox X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 15:08:08 -0000 This is a MIME message. You may need a MIME compliant mail user agent. --===axigen=3794012022429245343776569643840490221573=axigen=== Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On Tue, 10/03/2020 05:05 PM, Stephen Farrell wr= ote: >=20 On 10/03/2020 14:54, Bogdan Moldovan wrote: > > Should such a virtual BoF be scheduled, how could I get involved?=20 >=20 > Usually there'd be a mailing list announced some time > before. Thanks, I'll keep my antennas up and running ;) --===axigen=3794012022429245343776569643840490221573=axigen=== Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
On Tue, 10/03/2020 05= :05 PM, Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:<= br>
On 10/03/2020 14:54, Bogdan Moldovan wro= te:
> Should such a virtual BoF be scheduled, how could I get involve= d?

Usually there'd be a mailing list announced some time
before.=
Thanks, I'll keep my ant= ennas up and running ;)
--===axigen=3794012022429245343776569643840490221573=axigen===-- From nobody Tue Mar 10 12:41:05 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A14903A0997 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 2020 12:40:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cQA5I7MA7mtW for ; Tue, 10 Mar 2020 12:40:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ob.cityemail.com (mail-ob.cityemail.com [104.128.152.19]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B1C73A09C9 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 2020 12:40:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 36094 invoked from network); 10 Mar 2020 19:40:53 -0000 Received: from riddle.wizard.ca (HELO [192.168.1.55]) (michael@wizard.ca@104.128.144.8) by be.cityemail.com with (AES128-SHA encrypted) SMTP (0dc42756-6307-11ea-a5bf-df52a0718f49); Tue, 10 Mar 2020 12:40:53 -0700 To: dispatch@ietf.org From: Michael Peddemors Organization: LinuxMagic Inc. Message-ID: Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 12:40:53 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-MagicMail-OS: Linux 2.2.x-3.x X-MagicMail-UUID: 0dc42756-6307-11ea-a5bf-df52a0718f49 X-MagicMail-Authenticated: michael@wizard.ca X-MagicMail-SourceIP: 104.128.144.8 X-MagicMail-RegexMatch: 0 X-MagicMail-EnvelopeFrom: X-Archive: Yes Archived-At: Subject: [dispatch] [FEEDBACK] Cancellation of IETF in person meeting, and topics X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 19:41:03 -0000 As you all know, having 'email security' as a proposed topic for the DISPATCH group is important to us. While we have not had a lot of noise on the list, we have had others weigh in and recognize that this is an important topic to all parties, and the IETF should have a role in tackling the problems, but I think there is a lot more support that simply hasn't been recognized by the volume of correspondence on the list. However, as the IETF has now announced the cancellation of IN-PERSON events in Vancouver, there are two things I would like to see. 1) A confirmation that this is a topic that will be taken on by the DISPATCH group. (Still haven't seen it as agenda item) 2) If there are any attendees who believe this an important item to be added/discussed in DISPATCH, and you are too late to cancel your trip, we should have an informal get together anyways. We don't have to shake hands, but since you are already here mingling with people, we might get some value out of this, and create more feedback that can be passed back to the dispatch group. If you still are visiting Vancouver, and are interested in this topic, please post back to the list, and if there is interest and enough people I can try and organize something. -- Michael -- -- "Catch the Magic of Linux..." ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Michael Peddemors, President/CEO LinuxMagic Inc. Visit us at http://www.linuxmagic.com @linuxmagic A Wizard IT Company - For More Info http://www.wizard.ca "LinuxMagic" a Registered TradeMark of Wizard Tower TechnoServices Ltd. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 604-682-0300 Beautiful British Columbia, Canada This email and any electronic data contained are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which they are addressed. Please note that any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and are not intended to represent those of the company. From nobody Tue Mar 10 19:05:46 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 817FD3A0E58 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 2020 19:05:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.079 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.079 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ATM75OMvuzt4 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 2020 19:05:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 104113A0E5D for ; Tue, 10 Mar 2020 19:05:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.127.239] (mta-70-120-123-175.stx.rr.com [70.120.123.175] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 02B25eK3067937 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 10 Mar 2020 21:05:42 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1583892342; bh=m8BVwWUUq3JmkMf87823PPolB2wzckg8JWUaFJxvmms=; h=From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References; b=V8CkhHRGMISnUNe3mxjdt2An2RwXtIgztsQB7EIz3O7apFQCS+eOY4YDrA3LI4bP0 Obyr1kcQgg+blAQ/r2vm6v32wP90bcih0b8k8rECzjaJ4VHlQ1WO0jiCSKtmv4PBPp nYIpnhcs3WxMNxgzzJaHf/m56XXtCVmwpnR6j3Mc= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host mta-70-120-123-175.stx.rr.com [70.120.123.175] (may be forged) claimed to be [192.168.127.239] From: Ben Campbell Message-Id: <607D0167-35AA-4F73-9C8D-CE11ACA5D682@nostrum.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_81455F5A-5E06-4288-B108-2B6B5EB0D084"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.60.0.2.5\)) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 21:05:34 -0500 In-Reply-To: Cc: dispatch@ietf.org To: Michael Peddemors References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.60.0.2.5) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] [FEEDBACK] Cancellation of IETF in person meeting, and topics X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 02:05:45 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_81455F5A-5E06-4288-B108-2B6B5EB0D084 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi Michael, One clarification, inline: Thanks, Ben. > On Mar 10, 2020, at 2:40 PM, Michael Peddemors = wrote: >=20 > As you all know, having 'email security' as a proposed topic for the = DISPATCH group is important to us. While we have not had a lot of noise = on the list, we have had others weigh in and recognize that this is an = important topic to all parties, and the IETF should have a role in = tackling the problems, but I think there is a lot more support that = simply hasn't been recognized by the volume of correspondence on the = list. >=20 > However, as the IETF has now announced the cancellation of IN-PERSON = events in Vancouver, there are two things I would like to see. >=20 > 1) A confirmation that this is a topic that will be taken on by the = DISPATCH group. (Still haven't seen it as agenda item) DISPATCH does not take on work, other than for some very specific = administrative actions (e.g. IANA registrations). We discuss topics and = recommend next steps and venues for the work. This is a discussion that = should continue. We can have discussions on the list, or on the agenda = of a meeting if we have one. The chairs and ADs are discussing whether = we think we can have an effective virtual meeting. In the interim, I encourage people to continue the discussion on the = mail list. That is valuable whether or not we have a meeting. >=20 > 2) If there are any attendees who believe this an important item to be = added/discussed in DISPATCH, and you are too late to cancel your trip, = we should have an informal get together anyways. We don't have to shake = hands, but since you are already here mingling with people, we might get = some value out of this, and create more feedback that can be passed back = to the dispatch group. >=20 > If you still are visiting Vancouver, and are interested in this topic, = please post back to the list, and if there is interest and enough people = I can try and organize something. >=20 > -- Michael -- >=20 >=20 > -- > "Catch the Magic of Linux..." > = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Michael Peddemors, President/CEO LinuxMagic Inc. > Visit us at http://www.linuxmagic.com @linuxmagic > A Wizard IT Company - For More Info http://www.wizard.ca > "LinuxMagic" a Registered TradeMark of Wizard Tower TechnoServices = Ltd. > = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > 604-682-0300 Beautiful British Columbia, Canada >=20 > This email and any electronic data contained are confidential and = intended > solely for the use of the individual or entity to which they are = addressed. > Please note that any views or opinions presented in this email are = solely > those of the author and are not intended to represent those of the = company. >=20 > _______________________________________________ > dispatch mailing list > dispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch --Apple-Mail=_81455F5A-5E06-4288-B108-2B6B5EB0D084 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEExW9rpd7ez4DexOFOgFZKbJXz1A0FAl5oR24ACgkQgFZKbJXz 1A2DmBAAqYsdxWXXdmzIINRo89Ee7491ShgiuLpL7OvKnxukeZYBxxc5LILKe/Za kgqxv5bVqeSg5ER3whI3t1t7QKOr74+h7MHIhDf1X882J1XSPtBUxocFq0bzJB5f 0sXfWQBo7iHUNKeyJuJMlCYxZfIpu4TsE+W1hoD1G8eK0bnaoZiZYbzvg48dHSnD Fnt3Iqb47UekCtPhv3OwlAES3YB3p3UnI2VrOBsVcQqF30TDkEaphHLN4gnnSVjg QjAhCctQEbQaNKRZBNhKVLUvxsaB+aJmWLf9SFQQyn/y3IFB2mBT1j0/rVQPuUSi JRbatK1HZ5RVZbfV7J3X2PxG7jldF9PnHnaObibWSZC95sWJ91XzjdgqlmhnLlTw K1hxehH8C40/QNitREK3YubnhlUeErdnCGp/4faeHK3HkC33TM1qy1cw/z3frKxL oxKvZUZRqs2Awq4d2H8OMVj2FZD+bzLKS657BW8T58/s4aYb1tC/RHYm4ooaXqaD mzHLyqux9PdtHKFgTNKerYWo8UJTnRFvtcxXFfuqDlX6aEgSMc4rgAkdET8KtWS0 QwuETqKAzrmOsSFHy+nmn7C1WSrJuU9GpdHeGdA+t/5Qk/eyocoOK8neAiJ4irwJ uJXd5inkMNhUSpCyr1GfF2ecbQsyk+YpYCrPwG9op1uCuWKRXOo= =OwzX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_81455F5A-5E06-4288-B108-2B6B5EB0D084-- From nobody Tue Mar 10 19:12:21 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F3803A0E78 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 2020 19:12:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.079 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.079 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jqLxLQkqfpYJ for ; Tue, 10 Mar 2020 19:12:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 93AEE3A0E72 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 2020 19:12:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.127.239] (mta-70-120-123-175.stx.rr.com [70.120.123.175] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 02B2CFEq069186 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 10 Mar 2020 21:12:17 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1583892737; bh=aMTw3/l1q1SzeK8qeSX0Br/YVxnKdrtfZiRDHreWUno=; h=From:Subject:Date:References:To:In-Reply-To; b=N5odhDzJdretPTREB2mJDaLHaqUHonMfGAJXDd2CLu+92lRPzwVQN973QOrDKWTjc G19gBqdVvg7V7NCeO5rWby3PoU9BSaPB2gr69snMuJE61pqI5O5BlN1MsA4oXRksGs PU3uWUgG3YDI6+6Dm9SPkel04lTeOX9MoC0jN4/Q= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host mta-70-120-123-175.stx.rr.com [70.120.123.175] (may be forged) claimed to be [192.168.127.239] From: Ben Campbell Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_DC8E5A2C-31A6-4542-BB97-A79C0BC1DFB1"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.60.0.2.5\)) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 21:12:10 -0500 References: To: DISPATCH WG In-Reply-To: Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.60.0.2.5) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] [BACKGROUND] Request for Dispatch to discuss steps forward on email security issues. X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 02:12:20 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_DC8E5A2C-31A6-4542-BB97-A79C0BC1DFB1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Everyone, We=E2=80=99ve had several people say there might be some work worth = doing here, or at least related to =E2=80=9Chere=E2=80=9D. Do people have thoughts on the next steps for that? For example, a BoF, = existing WG, new (mini) workgroup? Something else? Thanks! Ben. > On Feb 12, 2020, at 6:18 PM, Michael Peddemors = wrote: >=20 > For those that monitor other IETF lists, you may be aware that we were = soliciting support for a "Birds of a Feather" surrounding issues that = face the Internet today related to "Email Security". >=20 > * BEC (Business Email Compromise) are now the largest single factor in = damage reported insurance claims. > * Email Compromises lead to higher rates of Ransomware, phishing, = spear > phishing > * Email compromise may lead theft of other resources (domain = resets/transfers, banking password resets etc) > * High number of email clients and servers that still allow = transmission > of unencrypted credentials. Reluctance of operators to deprecate. > * Auto Discovery Methods may preferentially try insecure methods, > exposing credentials > * POP Connectors maybe inadvertently leaking credentials >=20 > Several initiatives have been pushed forward, and several discussions, = however it is not yet in a form that has clear enough definitions to = decide on whether the requirements for addressing this within the IETF, = dictate the formation of a new working group, or a re-purposing of = existing ones, or expanding their mandates. >=20 > In our case, we are pushing forward on trying to make our proposals = around CLIENTID extensions to both SMTP AUTH and IMAP, and that crosses = boundaries of existing working groups. >=20 > It is my contention, that there are enough topics around email = security in general, that while maybe first a BOF should be formed to = clarify the > scope of such discussions, a working group be formed to solve these > serious issues. >=20 > And while we continue to see adoption of our SMTP AUTH and IMAP = CLIENTID extensions, as outlined in our RFC Drafts, we would like to see = this > become a standard, so it is more readily accepted and adopted by all = email clients and servers. >=20 > This will take a working group that can encompass email security in a = larger scope, than WG's only concerned with singular protocols. >=20 > Topics for Discussion - >=20 > * How/if/when should POP/IMAP/SMTPAUTH credentials being sent = unencrypted be stopped? > * Should we deprecate language in RFC's that permit unencrypted? > * Common standards for AutoDiscovery methods for email clients > (No AutoDiscovery is bad as well, as it encourages insecure) > * Advantages of using an extension to IMAP/SMTP AUTH to allow > for a TOKEN that can be used as part of a two factor authentication > * Are there other authenticaton systems that would benefit as well? > * Why CLIENTID is better as an extension to the protocol, than a SASL > implementation? >=20 > Some other ideas have also be floated, that is best suited to a = working group with a wide enough scope to encompass these issues. >=20 > Given that we are NOT holding a BOF in Vancouver, it is suggested that = we petition for time to be held in the DISPATCH session in Vancouver to = discuss these things. >=20 > -- Michael -- >=20 > PS, we can still have a BOB ('BOF over Beers') session for those who = are interested. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > -- > "Catch the Magic of Linux..." > = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Michael Peddemors, President/CEO LinuxMagic Inc. > Visit us at http://www.linuxmagic.com @linuxmagic > A Wizard IT Company - For More Info http://www.wizard.ca > "LinuxMagic" a Registered TradeMark of Wizard Tower TechnoServices = Ltd. > = ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > 604-682-0300 Beautiful British Columbia, Canada >=20 > This email and any electronic data contained are confidential and = intended > solely for the use of the individual or entity to which they are = addressed. > Please note that any views or opinions presented in this email are = solely > those of the author and are not intended to represent those of the = company. >=20 > _______________________________________________ > dispatch mailing list > dispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch --Apple-Mail=_DC8E5A2C-31A6-4542-BB97-A79C0BC1DFB1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEExW9rpd7ez4DexOFOgFZKbJXz1A0FAl5oSPoACgkQgFZKbJXz 1A2Usw//Q0G3byWL8hxjK7HrEP7dpKVTr7mwGoeo4JwVxsCBX+z8emuq4oZlzOE8 DLG0deL5HJwT4XYS0CPs8GVF6JiBEJT927QhKR3ajSyuS8IbbmCZuUnpH0CV6fvB Dexu52RNgN9zNv4SGdVtdhlnCRMfQNoaBzSgsgIbFrW+iWLMv86pui8ng2U/A13j 02oz88xipdnHakFN046xddM591DnUwjSCTFrdF8e9JPUJiN1SAGowyzYo0w9/Kpo WGx9+1QNbelsBw/3F2cTSZl/1CPxa3PqnJRuzh+GKe0lcMvZxLE0+YdEJlIuJSGS 47NBJMtj3dcWSUprHxy6sHeDUcnFGgNdC1In+i/pV09cM5SVaLOxavh5QZAaUyMe 9eejmGBdHkapnjpC6dRjO7CXCpunyw6vGMB/vdZXIt1D2/hDrenvh7fXnUPT/Wx4 VrlmXG4h+2ZvFkbU/G7vjy21d1mlLVV4ePbcv4n37m2ywGndTNg8l+fY0kwE0EGe QodhJZGnjV365nOKLYQKY2O7fsonoeUBmWM3NXH330vRnZcKjmDuvdii1R+i4lVW egFsGs3lwCQZ3USKMEdnYUAKKoAh7q5A4J1FhePj0ZyrOyGIR9lgJx9s3y3o982y Djq90hGGMNjVRvjp4e3NU2o8/vGWdEVNRastdIudwVfYmpk0xpI= =ejMt -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_DC8E5A2C-31A6-4542-BB97-A79C0BC1DFB1-- From nobody Wed Mar 11 14:12:55 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65BE83A0CE9; Wed, 11 Mar 2020 14:12:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.078 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.078 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zUVdcCbWAu8E; Wed, 11 Mar 2020 14:12:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 832493A0CED; Wed, 11 Mar 2020 14:12:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.127.239] (mta-70-120-123-175.stx.rr.com [70.120.123.175] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 02BLCmgq028369 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 11 Mar 2020 16:12:49 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1583961170; bh=eHaPYH8PRyHlowWmbAEjxeJJs3X+amdbRJmy8D4E2B4=; h=From:Subject:Date:Cc:To; b=T//fZYosx3H5X2zqyuw5bQySnL9x+ade1QjtS6cP8hnP9GowaGEdylBjPDyvyMgPg 8/PmD2QHBbcISorPbIIafjbtLGtVCutZRRDf8srJml29EW6xfrK0dlLmp1eTPOWkZ7 DE8Gof8He9hvCnnRV/BlwM+tDnZcsQZ1m1nFooEM= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host mta-70-120-123-175.stx.rr.com [70.120.123.175] (may be forged) claimed to be [192.168.127.239] From: Ben Campbell Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_660D3DE6-8FD0-4991-A32A-E19D54A063F5"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.60.0.2.5\)) Message-Id: <7F63AC94-1645-466E-81E2-13306B66CDBB@nostrum.com> Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 16:12:40 -0500 Cc: dispatch-chairs@ietf.org To: DISPATCH WG X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.60.0.2.5) Archived-At: Subject: [dispatch] Preliminary Agenda X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 21:12:54 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_660D3DE6-8FD0-4991-A32A-E19D54A063F5 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_82D797EB-97DB-4618-A640-5585ABC3DE91" --Apple-Mail=_82D797EB-97DB-4618-A640-5585ABC3DE91 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Everyone, I assume everyone knows by know that the IETF face-to-face meeting has = been canceled. The IESG is working on a schedule to determine when the = various working groups can meet virtually. We do not yet know when that = will happen for DISPATCH. But in anticipation that we will have a virtual meeting sometime in the = near future, we=E2=80=99ve uploaded a draft agenda at the following link = (and copied below for your convenience). https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/107/materials/agenda-107-dispatch = Please send any agenda bashes to the dispatch list and the chairs as = soon as possible. Thanks! Ben. ---------------- # Agenda DISPATCH Virtual Meeting @IETF-107 DISPATCH Meeting ---------------- ### Status and Agenda Bash - Chairs and ADs (15 min) ### Client-ID and Email Security - Michael Peddemors (30 min) = [SMTP-ClientID](https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-storey-smtp-client-id-08= ) [IMAP-ClientID](https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-yu-imap-client-id-03) ### Automatic Peering for SIP Trunks - Kaustubh Inamdar/Sreekanth = Narayanan(15 min) Discussion: Should DISPATCH recommend formation of a mini-working group = with a charter similar to the proposed? [Proposed = Charter](https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dispatch/o3ijbrtRX5lpGuY-eq= Z_nGf_f_E) ART AREA Meeting ---------------- ### BoFs and meetings of interest - ADs and BoF Chairs (10 min) ### UUID Format Update - Brad Peabody (15 min) = [Draft](https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-peabody-dispatch-new-uuid-format= -00) ### HTTP Link Hints - Mark Nottingham - (5 min) [Draft](https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-nottingham-link-hint-02) ### AOB --Apple-Mail=_82D797EB-97DB-4618-A640-5585ABC3DE91 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi = Everyone,

I assume = everyone knows by know that the IETF face-to-face meeting has been = canceled. The IESG is working on a schedule to determine when the = various working groups can meet virtually. We do not yet know when that = will happen for DISPATCH.

But in anticipation that we will have a virtual meeting = sometime in the near future, we=E2=80=99ve uploaded a draft agenda at = the following link (and copied below for your = convenience). 

https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/107/materials/agenda-107-d= ispatch

Please send any agenda bashes to the dispatch list and the = chairs as soon as possible.

Thanks!

Ben.

----------------
# Agenda DISPATCH Virtual = Meeting @IETF-107 
DISPATCH Meeting=20
----------------

### Status and Agenda Bash - Chairs and ADs (15 min)

### Client-ID and Email Security - Michael Peddemors (30 min)

[SMTP-ClientID](https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-storey-smtp-client-id-08)=

[IMAP-ClientID](https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-yu-imap-client-id-03)

### Automatic Peering for SIP Trunks - Kaustubh Inamdar/Sreekanth =
Narayanan(15 min)

Discussion: Should DISPATCH recommend formation of a mini-working group =
with a charter
similar to the proposed?

[Proposed Charter](https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dispatch/o3ijbrtRX5lpGuY-=
eqZ_nGf_f_E)


ART AREA Meeting=20
----------------

### BoFs and meetings of interest - ADs and BoF Chairs (10 min)

### UUID Format Update - Brad Peabody (15 min)

[Draft](https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-peabody-dispatch-new-uuid-for=
mat-00) =20

### HTTP Link Hints  - Mark Nottingham - (5 min)

  [Draft](https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-nottingham-link-hint-02)

### AOB



= --Apple-Mail=_82D797EB-97DB-4618-A640-5585ABC3DE91-- --Apple-Mail=_660D3DE6-8FD0-4991-A32A-E19D54A063F5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEExW9rpd7ez4DexOFOgFZKbJXz1A0FAl5pVEgACgkQgFZKbJXz 1A1jrhAAgIbPFhpFb2dJ5euTw3nwCuXkwxsGMM2AT18XcTZPsRSXu5OeU1NXwtUl +ABSpolc1SxWEOf4FXNFBwaggHZ530BSuvYqq24FNWyq7Fjmzs7CESu6Vh7WZI0c plntWLS80c7acnUnwnaW9vfLECeuPP8xcJqRbUaEt0YKd6onvJ1rmZceM2fD56y1 xUMNM4D6jp3lGr57eMh0dN0j7t5TDn7hCDMfkJdjezpgLTNmetmFngbd9zqM59nN xZ2F5TuO84hyznc+77R9UOt1/xszS9fisCG+h+EuVrlYZNhiCfZuIFLz6WbGBZYW JbH3jiYiEbMzuXGQs1y0Qn2yuP4gM6utyGCvVSbtDEd3RPTGsLtAmkRG8HfUEkrK o9SWsGMtO4sibXBWZMyOXd9weHaF/GmEQmXi6D+NOxWm9NijVGpqD4rpNOBLrHq3 C3SovK5m2O4qwqT2Ui2IBi3ILg27RAaVCkDFPyd0u/lquD80F4+6htTsGASN6Kvf 7lAFCnRkerU9zA7RFBeAXfMTZ+1kuKS2JkIy6k7XfBhxicQt6x3tq9IFibXyl8ea SN8aspdnF6ODzKR5MSNrdaQSD7LpEbwxfech3ha9GiXOIwV56DFkVDj8S1W8YNQf 4u23e/C9JjVj65wsRxE3XDT/RAPbrXbqJNaszyjxoSlB0eBy/UA= =mvDo -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_660D3DE6-8FD0-4991-A32A-E19D54A063F5-- From nobody Wed Mar 11 14:21:45 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B01EE3A0D49; Wed, 11 Mar 2020 14:21:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.403 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.403 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS=0.274, MAY_BE_FORGED=0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2kr2xnipALDq; Wed, 11 Mar 2020 14:21:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0279A3A0D3E; Wed, 11 Mar 2020 14:21:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.127.239] (mta-70-120-123-175.stx.rr.com [70.120.123.175] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 02BLLZhK029877 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 11 Mar 2020 16:21:36 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1583961697; bh=g9iQ1v8DUcCH7hP4RC4AgfIKN6AVRTCPSzYQhWPxfQ0=; h=From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References; b=HYSCN2M2Btn+RTbvRxIKPuXXuVaYXmHiLStgb/sI9szMKpOgjT2aP/uHXrMxudgXo /WHX5kOJg4MvCEDnnGl/vpmTTWICWEsN2voakjblWX06SmP6wHL/Tgq6XowyJBwvyy nFJ2H0WEgNKYnIwT5cWXp1Yfx6xDtUUrDibViDgw= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host mta-70-120-123-175.stx.rr.com [70.120.123.175] (may be forged) claimed to be [192.168.127.239] From: Ben Campbell Message-Id: <73852274-8033-4864-94AC-AAC149A9E4E0@nostrum.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_03AD5F3E-7D9E-4D61-A0B2-16A796A3D08F"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.60.0.2.5\)) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 16:21:29 -0500 In-Reply-To: Cc: "dispatch-chairs@ietf.org" , "Kaustubh Inamdar (kinamdar)" , "Sreekanth Narayanan (sreenara)" To: "dispatch@ietf.org" References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.60.0.2.5) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] PROPOSED CHARTER FOR ASAP (Automatic SIP trunking And Peering) X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 21:21:44 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_03AD5F3E-7D9E-4D61-A0B2-16A796A3D08F Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_DC681196-FA47-40B2-8F13-D33EA437F356" --Apple-Mail=_DC681196-FA47-40B2-8F13-D33EA437F356 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Everyone, The proponents have gone through a few revisions of the proposed charter = (below) based on list feedback. At this point, we=E2=80=99d like to call = the questions on what to recommend to to the ART ADs. Please respond to = the following questions: 1. Is the topic described suitable for a reasonably short-lived = mini-working group, without requiring a separate BoF first? 2. Is the charter a good starting point from which to develop a final = charter (through the usual charter review process for new working = groups) 3. Would you participate in a working group with a charter substantially = similar to this one? Note that we have agenda time allocated for this on an upcoming virtual = meeting (details TBD), but if we can close these questions via email, we = can give that time back to other things. Thanks! Ben. > On Feb 27, 2020, at 10:56 PM, Sreekanth Narayanan (sreenara) = wrote: >=20 > All, >=20 > Here are the revisions to the proposed charter of ASAP (Automatic SIP = trunking And Peering) after incorporating the latest comments. = Suggestions/comments are welcome. >=20 >=20 > The deployment of a Session Initiation Protocol (SIP)-based = infrastructure in enterprise and service provider communication networks = is increasing at a rapid pace. Consequently, direct IP peering between = enterprise and service provider networks is quickly replacing = traditional methods of interconnection between enterprise and service = provider networks. >=20 > Currently published standards provide a strong foundation over which = direct IP peering can be realized. However, given the sheer number of = these standards, it is often not clear which behavioural subsets, = extensions to baseline protocols and operating principles ought to be = configured by the enterprise network administrator to ensure successful = peering with a SIP service provider network. This lack of context often = leads to interoperability issues between enterprise and service provider = SIP networks resulting in a large number of support cases being opened = with enterprise equipment manufacturers and SIP service providers. = Subsequently, deployment times for SIP trunking between enterprise and = service provider networks increase significantly. >=20 > This work would define a descriptive capability set, which is = populated by a SIP service provider, and which, when communicated to an = enterprise network, provides the enterprise network with sufficient = information to setup SIP trunking with the SIP service provider. Such a = capability set would not only result in SIP trunking deployment times = being drastically scaled down, but also would result in a significant = decrease in interoperability issues between enterprise and service = provider network. Over the long run, operational costs for service = providers and enterprise equipment manufactures would likely decrease as = a result of fewer support cases. >=20 > This work would make use of HTTPS based framework that allows a SIP = service provider to offload a detailed capability set to the enterprise = network. HTTPS is used in favor of SIP for the following reasons: > 1. While there are extensions to baseline SIP that could potentially = allow a capability set to be communicated from the service provider to = the enterprise network, none of these extensions are readily usable to = achieve the objective of this work. > 2. Any modifications to existing SIP-based extensions to fit the = objective of this work would require equipment manufacturers to upgrade = their SIP stacks. >=20 > The scope of activity includes: >=20 > * Define a robust capability set which encapsulates sufficient = information to ensure smooth IP peering between enterprise and service = provider SIP networks. > * Define a data model for the capability set. > * Extensibility of the data model to allow proprietary parameters to = be encoded. > * A HTTPS-based transport mechanism using which the capability set is = communicated from the service provider network to the enterprise = network. > * A mechanism to discover the capability server hosted in the SIP = service provider network >=20 > The following is out of scope: > * Extensions to SIP that enable an enterprise network to solicit and = obtain a descriptive capability set from a SIP service provider. > * A workflow/mechanism that allows service providers to directly = configure devices in the enterprise network. >=20 > The group will produce > * Requirements, Use Cases and Architecture draft. > * Specification for SIP Auto Peer. >=20 > This group will co-ordinate with the SIP core workgroup and the = SIPConnect efforts carried out by the SIP Forum. >=20 > Milestones: > Send protocol specification to IESG >=20 > _______________________________________________ > dispatch mailing list > dispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch = --Apple-Mail=_DC681196-FA47-40B2-8F13-D33EA437F356 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi = Everyone,

The = proponents have gone through a few revisions of the proposed charter = (below) based on list feedback. At this point, we=E2=80=99d like to call = the questions on what to recommend to to the ART ADs. Please respond to = the following questions:

1. Is the topic described suitable for a reasonably = short-lived mini-working group, without requiring a separate BoF = first?

2. Is = the charter a good starting point from which to develop a final charter = (through the usual charter review process for new working = groups)

3. = Would you participate in a working group with a charter substantially = similar to this one?

Note that we have agenda time allocated for this on an = upcoming virtual meeting (details TBD), but if we can close these = questions via email, we can give that time back to other = things.

Thanks!

Ben.

On Feb 27, 2020, at 10:56 PM, = Sreekanth Narayanan (sreenara) <sreenara=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

All,

Here are the revisions to the proposed charter of ASAP = (Automatic SIP trunking And Peering) after incorporating the latest = comments. Suggestions/comments are welcome.


The deployment of a Session Initiation = Protocol (SIP)-based infrastructure in enterprise and service provider = communication networks is increasing at a rapid pace. Consequently, = direct IP peering between enterprise and service provider networks is = quickly replacing traditional methods of interconnection between = enterprise and service provider networks.

Currently published = standards provide a strong foundation over which direct IP peering can = be realized. However, given the sheer number of these standards, it is = often not clear which behavioural subsets, extensions to baseline = protocols and operating principles ought to be configured by the = enterprise network administrator to ensure successful peering with a SIP = service provider network. This lack of context often leads to = interoperability issues between enterprise and service provider SIP = networks resulting in a large number of support cases being opened with = enterprise equipment manufacturers and SIP service providers. = Subsequently, deployment times for SIP trunking between enterprise and = service provider networks increase significantly.

This work would define = a descriptive capability set, which is populated by a SIP service = provider, and which, when communicated to an enterprise network, = provides the enterprise network with sufficient information to setup SIP = trunking with the SIP service provider. Such a capability set would not = only result in SIP trunking deployment times being drastically scaled = down, but also would result in a significant decrease in = interoperability issues between enterprise and service provider network. = Over the long run, operational costs for service providers and = enterprise equipment manufactures would likely decrease as a result of = fewer support cases.

This work would make use of HTTPS based = framework that allows a SIP service provider to offload a detailed = capability set to the enterprise network. HTTPS is used in favor of SIP = for the following reasons:
1. While = there are extensions to baseline SIP that could potentially allow a = capability set to be communicated from the service provider to the = enterprise network, none of these extensions are readily usable to = achieve the objective of this work.
2.= Any modifications to existing SIP-based extensions to fit the objective = of this work would require equipment manufacturers to upgrade their SIP = stacks.

The scope of activity includes:

* Define a robust = capability set which encapsulates sufficient information to ensure = smooth IP peering between enterprise and service provider SIP = networks.
* Define a data model for = the capability set.
* Extensibility = of the data model to allow proprietary parameters to be encoded.
* A HTTPS-based transport mechanism = using which the capability set is communicated from the service provider = network to the enterprise network.
* = A mechanism to discover the capability server hosted in the SIP service = provider network

The following is out of scope:
* Extensions to SIP that enable an = enterprise network to solicit and obtain a descriptive capability set = from a SIP service provider.
* A = workflow/mechanism that allows service providers to directly configure = devices in the enterprise network.
The group will produce
* Requirements, Use Cases and = Architecture draft.
* Specification = for SIP Auto Peer.

This group will co-ordinate with the = SIP core workgroup and the SIPConnect efforts carried out by the SIP = Forum.

Milestones:
<Date = TBD> Send protocol specification to IESG
 
_______________________________________________
dispatch mailing list
dispatch@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch

= --Apple-Mail=_DC681196-FA47-40B2-8F13-D33EA437F356-- --Apple-Mail=_03AD5F3E-7D9E-4D61-A0B2-16A796A3D08F Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEExW9rpd7ez4DexOFOgFZKbJXz1A0FAl5pVlkACgkQgFZKbJXz 1A1m7Q/+KX+/WtFOccnP+NtiARuIkbzzHOvPhhrkvy+v6s+6+NFzVxHDGu9504LK OEMYE4Vo/LQJCh3yIDFFoWKAdTHH4ngSOSZJVqu2f6ZLKc7ugnuSMbACLgKQzOdU /4inP6vpIU5LMsuJOS7bruB7JTXUQJon1cUCLx2LILViAjkNqmHd094iXNq1aD1k OLZ6vQo+1okaAiitRpTaaYMkZCvru9fH7lOJIVKLUmrP/8F3621eK0/s0v+pQg1A 13Rd60pwNhxralkkZ7Cu2f/khqNEIMhJMwtcg/dPDvs1Zkgy0OHgV3/CfgxPZfdY jkpP3UltiuvjhW7YznZIwcXiXo1Q+XKFR1a42SmUefzULPNKeFPR3hRlyZ6pEL+3 tEJd+lgHCfUBM9iVmriwpIx7GfWcJO2ehpQcHRWbrVwsgj9QGjJUDBy6XIJ7ZDlt U31TZh1hUwOs1FaXJ5g63TatN0D4O5BZRiZkUoo6Wy6JnY+uf4JEi9O2rW/f+51h pMB05SOTjQh0xXeZz42bNA6aqfU+R0FSk8ynwOXWbIE+moK+1DXXaihrZ2FPnBIL DhcogUymVtWBiV7MRpqJEdbZyuPIWDAVxgqyyZvpm7K5KhRUFL6EDMVeetodFpWF UGIZS4/Hh7sJx/OSDgoV2h1RnDyDMsWYEgsoCk177RDZcFYhap4= =iTg9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_03AD5F3E-7D9E-4D61-A0B2-16A796A3D08F-- From nobody Wed Mar 11 14:39:17 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16AF03A0D80; Wed, 11 Mar 2020 14:39:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Pg6U0QpKhIGn; Wed, 11 Mar 2020 14:39:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf1-x433.google.com (mail-pf1-x433.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::433]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 63EEA3A0D7E; Wed, 11 Mar 2020 14:39:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf1-x433.google.com with SMTP id c144so2071186pfb.10; Wed, 11 Mar 2020 14:39:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=P/wYfAzjBJ0b8jlc0smDa6uGbJvQ5QN7SFFDLo1UrYU=; b=PQZFmgg6TVzp+DDf8/f6+pabuYNDZ8M7Q7iVzSASd5exZaV6kRhg6Uq/3I743LAf/x fd/X1oqQ4YacToB2i48U1VcTznyfTMqbO7zIwTggorrvuUY0k/C/b5oxuuFovldM8zc7 GCLMEuMrIySEMTOqWTl/1SJfC+iGsI/9dVOJ0iyhGPqUQD+z6Ln8jbU65ZgvQDaACaSt RcZ0mDabyAyuNzZWJqRyGlWKocVIsEh7vs5PPa+5ryEt5pdcuwkfogtnR9taFr7tyDfX HYUXO8cXO6gRxi5RKWvMclGXIFgDfRJXzj781COVjS5VaKrTIuT1npX2ybYB5f5K3+2n t19A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=P/wYfAzjBJ0b8jlc0smDa6uGbJvQ5QN7SFFDLo1UrYU=; b=nGmknLmEQBaUqvn8ObuR+9ld5WI9XzQ+aEcPnN/YDo5ToDZR6KddKwtO3HWMGeVA9b SVdY/063JV7SE+OBuqXN61vDPUhX+eZrrM8pJYaJhVj0oEYreDJ7NujHwJbgOAxqb7qz +gxBn/VKgOuWqMlHo8KVfrNLq/mU/ijfHvSMQHOXKoqBs8guDBawGsEtTMt+ms24nZX4 ttv9J8809pt6/pghLkuw479xKU6WIrWuIlXtNVGCudfFj7Jj9wecE2ceo2LFxojlt2+6 HEJ8cOGD8vGECZjCF12QzdRDt883TuqUZwY7W0iVmkHNsIJPFzzXWd76lykRAG9xTlAh 2l1g== X-Gm-Message-State: ANhLgQ0vaDuCULjPvFMpy24LqIH8GbOzVrX+vjs9cWOpa8/d8D9GdB4y gVk1ojENNLZrc1+ZiUQQI641zFxWMUffL+2jhfLrmQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADFU+vsoR58ViwIi1V2O9hRhW+vkCtDMgcUa/C7nVU1nF+wXKqT6WIRdPjIjx3ENNQWOTkHL/jr/c+XRZKpWGMmRzJM= X-Received: by 2002:a63:c507:: with SMTP id f7mr4493430pgd.278.1583962752801; Wed, 11 Mar 2020 14:39:12 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <7F63AC94-1645-466E-81E2-13306B66CDBB@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: <7F63AC94-1645-466E-81E2-13306B66CDBB@nostrum.com> From: Mary Barnes Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 16:39:01 -0500 Message-ID: To: Ben Campbell Cc: DISPATCH WG , dispatch chairs Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000037e16105a09b1128" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] Preliminary Agenda X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 21:39:15 -0000 --00000000000037e16105a09b1128 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just a thought, but maybe it would be constructive to handle each of these in a separate virtual meeting since you don't have the severe time restriction of a f2f? That way people could make better use of their time if they're not interested in all the topics. I don't think 15 minutes would be enough time for either of the DISPATCH topics unless the plan is to just rubber stamp things. If you're going to do a single meeting, would there be a reason not to schedule it at the same time as originally planned for the f2f? Regards, Mary. On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 4:13 PM Ben Campbell wrote: > Hi Everyone, > > I assume everyone knows by know that the IETF face-to-face meeting has > been canceled. The IESG is working on a schedule to determine when the > various working groups can meet virtually. We do not yet know when that > will happen for DISPATCH. > > But in anticipation that we will have a virtual meeting sometime in the > near future, we=E2=80=99ve uploaded a draft agenda at the following link = (and > copied below for your convenience). > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/107/materials/agenda-107-dispatch > > Please send any agenda bashes to the dispatch list and the chairs as soon > as possible. > > Thanks! > > Ben. > > ---------------- > # Agenda DISPATCH Virtual Meeting @IETF-107 > > DISPATCH Meeting > ---------------- > > ### Status and Agenda Bash - Chairs and ADs (15 min) > > ### Client-ID and Email Security - Michael Peddemors (30 min) > > [SMTP-ClientID](https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-storey-smtp-client-id-0= 8) > [IMAP-ClientID](https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-yu-imap-client-id-03) > > ### Automatic Peering for SIP Trunks - Kaustubh Inamdar/Sreekanth Narayan= an(15 min) > > Discussion: Should DISPATCH recommend formation of a mini-working group w= ith a charter > similar to the proposed? > > [Proposed Charter](https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dispatch/o3ijbrt= RX5lpGuY-eqZ_nGf_f_E) > > > ART AREA Meeting > ---------------- > > ### BoFs and meetings of interest - ADs and BoF Chairs (10 min) > > ### UUID Format Update - Brad Peabody (15 min) > > [Draft](https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-peabody-dispatch-new-uuid-forma= t-00) > > ### HTTP Link Hints - Mark Nottingham - (5 min) > > [Draft](https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-nottingham-link-hint-02) > > ### AOB > > > > > _______________________________________________ > dispatch mailing list > dispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch > --00000000000037e16105a09b1128 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Just a thought, but maybe it would be constructive to hand= le each of these in a separate virtual meeting since you don't have the= severe time restriction of a f2f?=C2=A0 That way people could make better = use of their time if they're not interested in all the topics.=C2=A0 = =C2=A0=C2=A0

I don't think 15 minutes would be enoug= h time for either of the DISPATCH topics unless the plan is to just rubber = stamp things.=C2=A0=C2=A0

If you're going to d= o a single meeting, would there be a reason not to schedule it at the same = time as originally planned=C2=A0for the f2f?

Regar= ds,
Mary.=C2=A0

On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 4:13 PM Ben Campbell= <ben@nostrum.com> wrote:
<= /div>
Hi Everyone,

I assume everyone kno= ws by know that the IETF face-to-face meeting has been canceled. The IESG i= s working on a schedule to determine when the various working groups can me= et virtually. We do not yet know when that will happen for DISPATCH.
<= div>
But in anticipation that we will have a virtual meeting = sometime in the near future, we=E2=80=99ve uploaded a draft agenda at the f= ollowing link (and copied below for your convenience).=C2=A0

=

Please send a= ny agenda bashes to the dispatch list and the chairs as soon as possible.

Thanks!

Ben.
----------------
# Agenda DISPATCH Virtual Meeting @IETF-107 
DISPATCH Meeting=20
----------------

### Status and Agenda Bash - Chairs and ADs (15 min)

### Client-ID and Email Security - Michael Peddemors (30 min)

[SMTP-ClientID](https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-storey-smtp=
-client-id-08)
[IMAP-ClientID](https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-yu-imap-client-=
id-03)

### Automatic Peering for SIP Trunks - Kaustubh Inamdar/Sreekanth Narayanan=
(15 min)

Discussion: Should DISPATCH recommend formation of a mini-working group wit=
h a charter
similar to the proposed?

[Proposed Charter](https://mailarchive.ietf.o=
rg/arch/msg/dispatch/o3ijbrtRX5lpGuY-eqZ_nGf_f_E)


ART AREA Meeting=20
----------------

### BoFs and meetings of interest - ADs and BoF Chairs (10 min)

### UUID Format Update - Brad Peabody (15 min)

[Draft](https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-peabody-=
dispatch-new-uuid-format-00) =20

### HTTP Link Hints  - Mark Nottingham - (5 min)

  [Draft](https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-nottingham-link-hi=
nt-02)

### AOB



_____= __________________________________________
dispatch mailing list
dispatch@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
--00000000000037e16105a09b1128-- From nobody Wed Mar 11 15:01:47 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B61F43A044A; Wed, 11 Mar 2020 15:01:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.403 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.403 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS=0.274, MAY_BE_FORGED=0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WyeDfF_BzghC; Wed, 11 Mar 2020 15:01:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E3CF93A0443; Wed, 11 Mar 2020 15:01:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.127.239] (mta-70-120-123-175.stx.rr.com [70.120.123.175] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 02BM1UHI037203 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 11 Mar 2020 17:01:31 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1583964092; bh=GYHCI+HGjM2kaprY7BBsfo6LS/addFOj5X0+UHE+bcM=; h=From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References; b=A6Onva7w2IP5IDa6EUwb2rUCqM8h+GI5+nibTu1K/trB90ONTO8RNkSqfFARLZ/qc znxuS/zq8RjrrXkMPPbXM+Ggg+8YN5nDZ9P9LjzqOloQk7TwM+KHxIcq11BuCiYWdv rWpfp9FnMNg+p0yHOYHb7M59xdcXm+zbbEEvM6bQ= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host mta-70-120-123-175.stx.rr.com [70.120.123.175] (may be forged) claimed to be [192.168.127.239] From: Ben Campbell Message-Id: <090E7B54-7954-4035-9C34-2457782651FC@nostrum.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_AF10B3E3-7012-43D2-B301-90DB6C340611"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.60.0.2.5\)) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 17:01:23 -0500 In-Reply-To: Cc: DISPATCH WG , dispatch chairs To: Mary Barnes References: <7F63AC94-1645-466E-81E2-13306B66CDBB@nostrum.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.60.0.2.5) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] Preliminary Agenda X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 22:01:45 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_AF10B3E3-7012-43D2-B301-90DB6C340611 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_D9CDD53F-7374-4158-BCC0-191B394D5EEA" --Apple-Mail=_D9CDD53F-7374-4158-BCC0-191B394D5EEA Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Thanks for the feedback! A couple of thoughts inline: > On Mar 11, 2020, at 4:39 PM, Mary Barnes = wrote: >=20 > Just a thought, but maybe it would be constructive to handle each of = these in a separate virtual meeting since you don't have the severe time = restriction of a f2f? That way people could make better use of their = time if they're not interested in all the topics. >=20 That=E2=80=99s an interesting thought. The IESG is working the schedule = for this. We can bring this up as a possibility. But at the same time, I = think we do benefit from cross-pollination from people with different = interests, so I wonder if we would lose that with separate meetings. > I don't think 15 minutes would be enough time for either of the = DISPATCH topics unless the plan is to just rubber stamp things. The only DISPATCH topic (not counting ART area topics) at 15 minutes is = one the chairs hope can be handled on the list prior to the meeting. So = in a perfect world, that topic will drop from the agenda. But you may be = right that we may need more than 15 minutes if the topic stays on the = agenda. The chairs will discuss this. >=20 > If you're going to do a single meeting, would there be a reason not to = schedule it at the same time as originally planned for the f2f? >=20 I think the IESG is planning a reduced virtual schedule followed by some = virtual interims. I don=E2=80=99t think we can count on any given time = slot as being available for us. Thanks! Ben. > Regards, > Mary. >=20 > On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 4:13 PM Ben Campbell > wrote: > Hi Everyone, >=20 > I assume everyone knows by know that the IETF face-to-face meeting has = been canceled. The IESG is working on a schedule to determine when the = various working groups can meet virtually. We do not yet know when that = will happen for DISPATCH. >=20 > But in anticipation that we will have a virtual meeting sometime in = the near future, we=E2=80=99ve uploaded a draft agenda at the following = link (and copied below for your convenience). >=20 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/107/materials/agenda-107-dispatch = >=20 > Please send any agenda bashes to the dispatch list and the chairs as = soon as possible. >=20 > Thanks! >=20 > Ben. >=20 > ---------------- > # Agenda DISPATCH Virtual Meeting @IETF-107 > DISPATCH Meeting > ---------------- >=20 > ### Status and Agenda Bash - Chairs and ADs (15 min) >=20 > ### Client-ID and Email Security - Michael Peddemors (30 min) >=20 > = [SMTP-ClientID](https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-storey-smtp-client-id-08= ) > [IMAP-ClientID](https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-yu-imap-client-id-03 = ) >=20 > ### Automatic Peering for SIP Trunks - Kaustubh Inamdar/Sreekanth = Narayanan(15 min) >=20 > Discussion: Should DISPATCH recommend formation of a mini-working = group with a charter > similar to the proposed? >=20 > [Proposed = Charter](https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dispatch/o3ijbrtRX5lpGuY-eq= Z_nGf_f_E = ) >=20 >=20 > ART AREA Meeting > ---------------- >=20 > ### BoFs and meetings of interest - ADs and BoF Chairs (10 min) >=20 > ### UUID Format Update - Brad Peabody (15 min) >=20 > = [Draft](https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-peabody-dispatch-new-uuid-format= -00 = ) >=20 > ### HTTP Link Hints - Mark Nottingham - (5 min) >=20 > [Draft](https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-nottingham-link-hint-02 = ) >=20 > ### AOB >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > dispatch mailing list > dispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch = --Apple-Mail=_D9CDD53F-7374-4158-BCC0-191B394D5EEA Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Thanks for the feedback! A couple of thoughts inline:

On Mar 11, 2020, at 4:39 PM, Mary Barnes <mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com> wrote:

Just a thought, but maybe it would be constructive to handle = each of these in a separate virtual meeting since you don't have the = severe time restriction of a f2f?  That way people could make = better use of their time if they're not interested in all the = topics.    


That=E2=80=99s an interesting thought. The IESG is = working the schedule for this. We can bring this up as a possibility. = But at the same time, I think we do benefit from cross-pollination from = people with different interests, so I wonder if we would lose that with = separate meetings.

I = don't think 15 minutes would be enough time for either of the DISPATCH = topics unless the plan is to just rubber stamp = things.  

The only DISPATCH topic (not counting ART area = topics) at 15 minutes is one the chairs hope can be handled on the list = prior to the meeting. So in a perfect world, that topic will drop from = the agenda. But you may be right that we may need more than 15 minutes = if the topic stays on the agenda. The chairs will discuss = this.

If you're going to do a single = meeting, would there be a reason not to schedule it at the same time as = originally planned for the f2f?


I= think the IESG is planning a reduced virtual schedule followed by some = virtual interims. I don=E2=80=99t think we can count on any given time = slot as being available for us.

Thanks!

Ben.


Regards,
Mary. 

On Wed, Mar = 11, 2020 at 4:13 PM Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com> wrote:
Hi Everyone,

I assume everyone knows by know that = the IETF face-to-face meeting has been canceled. The IESG is working on = a schedule to determine when the various working groups can meet = virtually. We do not yet know when that will happen for = DISPATCH.

But = in anticipation that we will have a virtual meeting sometime in the near = future, we=E2=80=99ve uploaded a draft agenda at the following link (and = copied below for your convenience). 

https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/107/materials/agenda-107-d= ispatch

Please send any agenda bashes to the dispatch list and the = chairs as soon as possible.

Thanks!

Ben.

----------------
# Agenda DISPATCH Virtual = Meeting @IETF-107 
DISPATCH Meeting=20
----------------

### Status and Agenda Bash - Chairs and ADs (15 min)

### Client-ID and Email Security - Michael Peddemors (30 min)

[SMTP-ClientID](https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-storey-smtp-client-id-08)=

[IMAP-ClientID](https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-yu-imap-client-id-03)

### Automatic Peering for SIP Trunks - Kaustubh Inamdar/Sreekanth =
Narayanan(15 min)

Discussion: Should DISPATCH recommend formation of a mini-working group =
with a charter
similar to the proposed?

[Proposed Charter](https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dispatch/o3ijbrtRX5lpGuY-=
eqZ_nGf_f_E)


ART AREA Meeting=20
----------------

### BoFs and meetings of interest - ADs and BoF Chairs (10 min)

### UUID Format Update - Brad Peabody (15 min)

[Draft](https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-peabody-dispatch-new-uuid-for=
mat-00) =20

### HTTP Link Hints  - Mark Nottingham - (5 min)

  [Draft](https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-nottingham-link-hint-02)

### AOB



_______________________________________________
dispatch mailing list
dispatch@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch

= --Apple-Mail=_D9CDD53F-7374-4158-BCC0-191B394D5EEA-- --Apple-Mail=_AF10B3E3-7012-43D2-B301-90DB6C340611 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEExW9rpd7ez4DexOFOgFZKbJXz1A0FAl5pX7MACgkQgFZKbJXz 1A1daQ/7BkTKEmn3E5WTv5e9Zu/XzFFDSJT6e8yQ6OiBi4RyjNJ4ucX3OzBaS3w7 T3BuE4OhDhhyv+Gp23h3OVUnShv15B12PGmWmYwF9H8hgUe1aVbf31jXYZkeNobB 8Vpknqo5W3w9uUB0gPMGuGa0z11F8ubYL6osqNmxuGs/O1uGHRKN8XXwVQNjlZmB eXMY0aDCR73YLKeuwZ+45IOzlrNIVUL1MfROAwIItbRdURHDq4wJA92Wi8OZWFmZ 5BGJSa+P/rigFs6IgnsDd/UUqBfBVp3N00AabJDD6mNK6G+QQxGBjPCqSEjngGo2 dGdkBmwr79nmHEWgwrUWcjrv/8xekZuLKuFgH4Yqudt3qv8RlFkftsOJjYQLail3 LV0eVoJ3+Ub++CJgxrGaVewYFCWrHT1ENAK0gsu2VaUNXBDFpVPSEqyKLer40A4V 5vyAgDBUL9pAPwwI+MhXSEh7PwLA+vGautxNIWiv/Kt4KEpXR2zpWtZVv5wGCDrk Ro0v0zxJQ6aYWWr0T2aIwIa8iRPVi0IJnXCP3hEkv4wgp72D7spx8Bte5Vayz3yA IAPJqiUbMVikro6b2GHAf71L0gTAPlc73hrW+vz6TmkFrGxvVQTP0w/XS7+sZjCi ZrOiEpzM6rTs09dELIkRNn43sbNpyohnOFuVPnW/ivoJVeWhvD8= =WEeb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_AF10B3E3-7012-43D2-B301-90DB6C340611-- From nobody Thu Mar 12 12:56:34 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8504C3A07E0 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 2020 12:56:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.078 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.078 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3TbI8MUbd2fv for ; Thu, 12 Mar 2020 12:56:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CCD493A07D6 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 2020 12:56:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.127.239] (mta-70-120-123-175.stx.rr.com [70.120.123.175] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 02CJuQEE026266 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 12 Mar 2020 14:56:27 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1584042988; bh=bU1fmVmHl3eY3VADTncycNa1Co2AYY495JrJzLfML44=; h=From:Subject:Date:References:Cc:To; b=upycxW7Nym2HvfEDqy4OT40sVKGI9VQen+l6hj64K3U9EiErBkn36l7I1OpM5rzkU eom4wiYY9h0TpcLuq239yxjIvRqulMh+JvdfqypQ9KHCXeH1pN//U2EXt5j/Q9DhNG H8gRMSk1F/ANIDXCu7oQDL6wFOSlwMEorGdyV5og= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host mta-70-120-123-175.stx.rr.com [70.120.123.175] (may be forged) claimed to be [192.168.127.239] From: Ben Campbell Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_DE704B35-A99B-4C25-AEDB-9BF2B1DAB0A1"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.60.0.2.5\)) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 14:56:18 -0500 References: <158403809452.18288.11892420987391669774@ietfa.amsl.com> Cc: Patrick McManus To: DISPATCH WG Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.60.0.2.5) Archived-At: Subject: [dispatch] Fwd: IETF 107 Virtual Meeting Agenda X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 19:56:33 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_DE704B35-A99B-4C25-AEDB-9BF2B1DAB0A1 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_8FD8E8DE-061A-4EDA-9226-F0C6C150AA0F" --Apple-Mail=_8FD8E8DE-061A-4EDA-9226-F0C6C150AA0F Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Everyone, Most have you have probably seen this already, but just in case: We will = have a virtual DISPATCH meeting during the week originally scheduled for = IETF107, but in a different time slot. We are scheduled for Monday, = March 23 at 22:10 UTC. Webex details should come out soon. Thanks! Ben. > Begin forwarded message: >=20 > From: The IESG > Subject: IETF 107 Virtual Meeting Agenda > Date: March 12, 2020 at 1:34:54 PM CDT > To: "IETF Announcement List" > Cc: ietf@ietf.org, 107all@ietf.org, irtf-announce@ietf.org > Reply-To: iesg@ietf.org >=20 > We have created a virtual IETF 107 agenda because the in-person = meeting was cancelled. This is a detailed email that explains our = choices. Please read it to the end. >=20 > We prioritized the scheduling of BOFs, working groups meeting for the = first time, and dispatch-style working groups. Existing working groups = should know how to progress their work via email and (virtual) interims, = and many of them have a solid basis to do that with participants who = have been collaborating together for a long time. But BOFs and new WGs = do not have that established working mode and usually benefit from = dedicated meeting time for bootstrapping purposes, as well as from a = participant base drawn from all IETF areas. Similarly, dispatch-style = groups are aiming to dispatch new work that otherwise has not seen much = previous discussion. >=20 > The virtual agenda is as follows, with all times listed in UTC: >=20 > Monday, March 23 > 20:00-22:00 TXAUTH > 22:10-00:10 DISPATCH >=20 > Tuesday, March 24 > 20:00-22:00 ADD, RAW > 22:10-00:10 MASQUE >=20 > Wednesday, March 25 > 20:00-21:30 WPACK, DRIP > 21:40-22:40 GENDISPATCH > 22:50-00:30 Plenary >=20 > Thursday, March 26 > 20:00-22:00 PRIVACYPASS > 22:10-00:10 RIPT >=20 > Friday, March 27 > 20:00-22:00 SECDISPATCH > 22:10-00:10 WEBTRANS >=20 > The total meeting block for WG and BOF sessions amounts to: >=20 > Pacific Time 13:00-17:10 (17:30 on Weds) > Eastern Time 16:00-20:10 (20:30 on Weds) > Coordinated Universal Time 20:00-00:10 (00:30 on Weds) > Central European Time 21:00-01:10 (01:30 on Weds) > India Standard Time 01:30-05:40 (06:00 on Weds) > China Standard Time 04:00-08:10 (08:30 on Weds) > Australian Eastern Standard Time 07:00-11:10 (11:30 on Weds) >=20 > We will be using Webex for all of these sessions. We will be posting = training materials and online resources in an FAQ on the IETF web site = next week for those who are unfamiliar with Webex. >=20 > This agenda, with links to the Webex sessions, will appear in the = datatracker shortly. If you plan to attend any of these sessions and you = are not already registered for IETF 107, we encourage you to register as = a remote participant . >=20 > There will not be any other working group meetings, area meetings, or = research group meetings scheduled between March 23 and March 27. HotRFC = is cancelled. We are not providing virtual replacements for side = meetings. The organizers of the Hackathon and the Code Sprint are = working on virtual support for those events and they will communicate = separately about those. >=20 > We are aiming to provide a =E2=80=9Challway=E2=80=9D Webex meeting = where participants can go to test audio and other Webex features and to = find others who are attending IETF 107 virtually. The = hallway@jabber.ietf.org jabber room will also continue to be available. = More information about these will be available on the FAQ page next = week. >=20 > There are many trade-offs involved in scheduling an all-virtual = meeting. We will be pleased if the BOFs on the agenda are able to form = WGs after this. But if not, the virtual BOF will not count as one = attempt against the usual allotment of two attempts to form a WG, given = the unusual circumstances. >=20 > RFC 8713, which specifies the NomCom process, relies heavily on there = being three meetings per year known as the first, second, and third = meetings, respectively. We consider the virtual IETF 107 to be the first = IETF meeting of 2020. We will be seating the new members of the = 2020-2021 IESG, IAB, and IETF LLC Board at the virtual plenary. We are = considering the implications of the cancelled Vancouver meeting for = NomCom volunteer qualification specified in RFC 8713 Section 4.14 and we = will be inviting community discussion about that soon. >=20 > We chose to focus this agenda on the 4.5 hours between 20:00 UTC and = 00:30 UTC. Because we anticipate having relatively few participants for = the scheduled sessions located in the part of the world between Europe = and China, this schedule aims to give the most participants an = opportunity to experience =E2=80=9Cnight time=E2=80=9D -- albeit = abbreviated -- even if they wish to participate in the meeting multiple = days in a row. We consulted with the chairs of the listed sessions when = we were crafting this agenda to check if they thought that many of their = expected participants would be disadvantaged by the slots chosen. They = thought these slots were workable. >=20 > We are preparing for an increased volume of virtual interim meetings = in April and beyond. We will share more information about strategies for = avoiding conflicts and ensuring fairness in scheduling of virtual = interims next week. Until then, we would like to ask chairs to refrain = from scheduling virtual interims. >=20 > We understand that the agenda above is far from ideal. We know that = some people reserved a whole week for IETF work and that week will now = appear empty, and we know that working late into the night, working = overnight, or getting up very early will be unpleasant or infeasible for = some. We understand that when people join meetings from home, other = commitments may interfere. We know there are many in our community with = novel ideas about how to run virtual meetings, and these should be = explored further. With the agenda above, we did the best we could given = the rapidly changing conditions. We do not expect any of the decisions = we made for this meeting to set a precedent for future meetings. >=20 > It was very evident to the IESG in the course of developing this = agenda that we lack consensus-based community recommendations about how = to deal with the inherent difficulties of scheduling virtual meetings = given time zone differences. After IETF 107, we will figure out the best = way to work with those interested in the community on this topic, = perhaps via the manycouches mailing list, GENDISPATCH, a BOF, or other = ways. >=20 > Feel free to send questions and comments to iesg@ietf.org. We may not = be able to respond immediately since we are busier than usual at the = moment as we prepare for the virtual meeting and the seating of the new = IESG members. >=20 > Regards, > The IESG >=20 > _______________________________________________ > IETF-Announce mailing list > IETF-Announce@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce --Apple-Mail=_8FD8E8DE-061A-4EDA-9226-F0C6C150AA0F Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi = Everyone,

Most have = you have probably seen this already, but just in case: We will have a = virtual DISPATCH meeting during the week originally scheduled for = IETF107, but in a different time slot. We are scheduled for Monday, = March 23 at 22:10 UTC. Webex details should come out soon.

Thanks!

Ben.

Begin forwarded message:

From: = The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
Subject: = IETF 107 Virtual = Meeting Agenda
Date: March 12, 2020 at 1:34:54 PM CDT
To: = "IETF Announcement List" <ietf-announce@ietf.org>
Cc: ietf@ietf.org, 107all@ietf.org, irtf-announce@ietf.org
Reply-To: = iesg@ietf.org

We have created a virtual = IETF 107 agenda because the in-person meeting was cancelled. This is a = detailed email that explains our choices. Please read it to the end.

We prioritized the scheduling of BOFs, working = groups meeting for the first time, and dispatch-style working groups. = Existing working groups should know how to progress their work via email = and (virtual) interims, and many of them have a solid basis to do that = with participants who have been collaborating together for a long time. = But BOFs and new WGs do not have that established working mode and = usually benefit from dedicated meeting time for bootstrapping purposes, = as well as from a participant base drawn from all IETF areas. Similarly, = dispatch-style groups are aiming to dispatch new work that otherwise has = not seen much previous discussion.

The = virtual agenda is as follows, with all times listed in UTC:

Monday, March 23
20:00-22:00 = TXAUTH
22:10-00:10 DISPATCH

Tuesday, March 24
20:00-22:00 ADD, RAW
22:10-00:10 MASQUE

Wednesday, = March 25
20:00-21:30 WPACK, DRIP
21:40-22:40 = GENDISPATCH
22:50-00:30 Plenary

Thursday, March 26
20:00-22:00 PRIVACYPASS
22:10-00:10 RIPT

Friday, March = 27
20:00-22:00 SECDISPATCH
22:10-00:10 = WEBTRANS

The total meeting block for WG and = BOF sessions amounts to:

Pacific Time =             &n= bsp;     13:00-17:10  (17:30 on Weds)
Eastern Time =             &n= bsp; 16:00-20:10  (20:30 on Weds)
Coordinated = Universal Time        20:00-00:10 =  (00:30 on Weds)
Central European Time =          21:00-01:10 =  (01:30 on Weds)
India Standard Time =            01:30-05= :40  (06:00 on Weds)
China Standard Time =          04:00-08:10 =  (08:30 on Weds)
Australian Eastern Standard Time =       07:00-11:10  (11:30 on Weds)

We will be using Webex for all of these = sessions. We will be posting training materials and online resources in = an FAQ on the IETF web site next week for those who are unfamiliar with = Webex.

This agenda, with links to the = Webex sessions, will appear in the datatracker shortly. If you plan to = attend any of these sessions and you are not already registered for IETF = 107, we encourage you to register as a remote participant <https://www.ietf.org/how/meetings/register/>.

There will not be any other working group = meetings, area meetings, or research group meetings scheduled between = March 23 and March 27. HotRFC is cancelled. We are not providing virtual = replacements for side meetings. The organizers of the Hackathon and the = Code Sprint are working on virtual support for those events and they = will communicate separately about those.

We = are aiming to provide a =E2=80=9Challway=E2=80=9D Webex meeting where = participants can go to test audio and other Webex features and to find = others who are attending IETF 107 virtually. The hallway@jabber.ietf.org jabber room will also continue to = be available. More information about these will be available on the FAQ = page next week.

There are many trade-offs = involved in scheduling an all-virtual meeting. We will be pleased if the = BOFs on the agenda are able to form WGs after this. But if not, the = virtual BOF will not count as one attempt against the usual allotment of = two attempts to form a WG, given the unusual circumstances.

RFC 8713, which specifies the NomCom process, = relies heavily on there being three meetings per year known as the = first, second, and third meetings, respectively. We consider the virtual = IETF 107 to be the first IETF meeting of 2020. We will be seating the = new members of the 2020-2021 IESG, IAB, and IETF LLC Board at the = virtual plenary. We are considering the implications of the cancelled = Vancouver meeting for NomCom volunteer qualification specified in RFC = 8713 Section 4.14 and we will be inviting community discussion about = that soon.

We chose to focus this agenda = on the 4.5 hours between 20:00 UTC and 00:30 UTC. Because we anticipate = having relatively few participants for the scheduled sessions located in = the part of the world between Europe and China, this schedule aims to = give the most participants an opportunity to experience =E2=80=9Cnight = time=E2=80=9D -- albeit abbreviated -- even if they wish to participate = in the meeting multiple days in a row. We consulted with the chairs of = the listed sessions when we were crafting this agenda to check if they = thought that many of their expected participants would be disadvantaged = by the slots chosen. They thought these slots were workable.

We are preparing for an increased volume of = virtual interim meetings in April and beyond. We will share more = information about strategies for avoiding conflicts and ensuring = fairness in scheduling of virtual interims next week. Until then, we = would like to ask chairs to refrain from scheduling virtual interims.

We understand that the agenda above is far = from ideal. We know that some people reserved a whole week for IETF work = and that week will now appear empty, and we know that working late into = the night, working overnight, or getting up very early will be = unpleasant or infeasible for some. We understand that when people join = meetings from home, other commitments may interfere. We know there are = many in our community with novel ideas about how to run virtual = meetings, and these should be explored further. With the agenda above, = we did the best we could given the rapidly changing conditions. We do = not expect any of the decisions we made for this meeting to set a = precedent for future meetings.

It was very = evident to the IESG in the course of developing this agenda that we lack = consensus-based community recommendations about how to deal with the = inherent difficulties of scheduling virtual meetings given time zone = differences. After IETF 107, we will figure out the best way to work = with those interested in the community on this topic, perhaps via the = manycouches mailing list, GENDISPATCH, a BOF, or other ways.

Feel free to send questions and comments to iesg@ietf.org. We may not = be able to respond immediately since we are busier than usual at the = moment as we prepare for the virtual meeting and the seating of the new = IESG members.

Regards,
The = IESG

_______________________________________________
IETF-Announce mailing list
IETF-Announce@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce

= --Apple-Mail=_8FD8E8DE-061A-4EDA-9226-F0C6C150AA0F-- --Apple-Mail=_DE704B35-A99B-4C25-AEDB-9BF2B1DAB0A1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEExW9rpd7ez4DexOFOgFZKbJXz1A0FAl5qk+IACgkQgFZKbJXz 1A39nw//YSj8Gz69z0yJQkZuGD6YkO1LzvgSgNH1uyBJtZ3Dn0QTcL36PUfz6ucX 9LO7UgbtKuCIjXKyMnsaPwzagT4ro0R+3oUTSieOYjH7gRL4GJeZgZMz0abMeA+v LRDtlRpPwffZu817svbsFYlixlLeBEegr/e+q5X6h4hXy5dLRiQXha1GqBiIAhAu jNiPowxnO0HNUigv0fD9eMYboanbBDLxLcLhH1YOcEPmwMzrxG0sJIUjeQ53tzW9 ThYuk465w+rRU5M5x0Z5h1kj9aWums+pk0fvDmBBkJSptGGvR+crtQfTOs+XZVpI RVXn4yk3Q93PYZTZFNs49XNMl8n9JqVs30NGJg5POE8iEmPapRHh9tykdNTA6HAo t3Tjj7EaLW//Cce9jM3ouLYY+FyG/H9NvbG+kelD9+MtxSkmKwZ0xxSr3fYVXVUc azYPM7aZ4aneMi7ruoGPMmQjhyCqzMkF806arMO+Mc3a/Vn3bAIm1Dqo8JaCNnJx W35iM+EfNjLufAnUEAui4Sicsx1j9sTERhUQP/94eWWLHTuijraPzn/cYUoPkZ8B TK8n12tLgj7af/44gCjgZFEEhcQGhkTEf7CXwY5meQINcev3AOwGP7EWtTm10S5d xcRYEO0uNDQP2i1vuiP3EfaRvZ00s2XoVxKvrsZ39VuUHWCs1Mg= =cNJn -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_DE704B35-A99B-4C25-AEDB-9BF2B1DAB0A1-- From nobody Thu Mar 12 13:12:05 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C14F23A084B for ; Thu, 12 Mar 2020 13:12:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.078 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.078 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ifbmwMMfr1lf for ; Thu, 12 Mar 2020 13:12:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0D6593A0849 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 2020 13:12:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.127.239] (mta-70-120-123-175.stx.rr.com [70.120.123.175] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 02CKBx0X029023 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 12 Mar 2020 15:12:00 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1584043920; bh=Wrqft0F8S46tzrhNQpmoA92yJulvIRguXEYYN8RoPhs=; h=From:Subject:References:To:Date; b=HjGXtTNzAU3y1i0WBzS2LPb1sEDR6oJqNPdrDXdbmDEs2wGbec38/cNBw04fI4lN3 tc8wdzNMMiaRRdrpU3JaPCwrAl4Q6SXj3InLsn+PZgNCnt1WispctnJ6tjf9JjZ7R7 8f7rsLEXz/3pYYwFEjHPvQsCo9okRk0ZtOLY1MI8= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host mta-70-120-123-175.stx.rr.com [70.120.123.175] (may be forged) claimed to be [192.168.127.239] From: Ben Campbell Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_A2B012A1-D8E8-4E02-AAAA-2A25D94A314A"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.60.0.2.5\)) Message-Id: References: <000C6DA3-F13E-4157-A93D-4429C5EC5BF2@mnot.net> To: DISPATCH WG Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 15:11:51 -0500 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.60.0.2.5) Archived-At: Subject: [dispatch] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-nottingham-link-hint-02.txt X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 20:12:03 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_A2B012A1-D8E8-4E02-AAAA-2A25D94A314A Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_0A9752D6-C24B-4F6B-9811-5A4A296A4E40" --Apple-Mail=_0A9752D6-C24B-4F6B-9811-5A4A296A4E40 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, Just a reminder that Mark requested thoughts on his HTTP link hint = draft. Any chance we can use this to prove we can finish a discussion on = the email list? :-) Thanks! Ben. > Begin forwarded message: >=20 > From: Mark Nottingham > Subject: [dispatch] Fwd: New Version Notification for = draft-nottingham-link-hint-02.txt > Date: March 4, 2020 at 1:55:28 AM CST > To: DISPATCH WG > Cc: ART Area >=20 > Some folks might remember this spec; there was some discussion of it = on art@ in 2013. >=20 > Since then, I've had a stream of folks expressing interest in moving = it forward; they're not typical IETF folk, more people who work on HTTP = APIs. >=20 > I'm not sure what to do with it - hence the ping to dispatch. = Thoughts? >=20 > Cheers, >=20 > P.S. I'm remote for YVR, so I'll get up at 4am if need be to remote = present for ~5 minutes, but if this could be dispatched on-list, that = would be much appreciated... >=20 >=20 >> Begin forwarded message: >>=20 >> From: internet-drafts@ietf.org >> Subject: New Version Notification for = draft-nottingham-link-hint-02.txt >> Date: 4 March 2020 at 5:47:55 pm AEDT >> To: "Mark Nottingham" > >>=20 >>=20 >> A new version of I-D, draft-nottingham-link-hint-02.txt >> has been successfully submitted by Mark Nottingham and posted to the >> IETF repository. >>=20 >> Name: draft-nottingham-link-hint >> Revision: 02 >> Title: HTTP Link Hints >> Document date: 2020-03-04 >> Group: Individual Submission >> Pages: 13 >> URL: = https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-nottingham-link-hint-02.txt = >> Status: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-nottingham-link-hint/ = >> Htmlized: = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-nottingham-link-hint-02 = >> Htmlized: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-nottingham-link-hint = >> Diff: = https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-nottingham-link-hint-02 = >>=20 >> Abstract: >> This memo specifies "HTTP Link Hints", a mechanism for annotating = Web >> links to HTTP(S) resources with information that otherwise might be >> discovered by interacting with them. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of = submission >> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org = . >>=20 >> The IETF Secretariat >>=20 >>=20 >=20 > -- > Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ > _______________________________________________ > dispatch mailing list > dispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch --Apple-Mail=_0A9752D6-C24B-4F6B-9811-5A4A296A4E40 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Hi,

Just = a reminder that Mark requested thoughts on his HTTP link hint draft. Any = chance we can use this to prove we can finish a discussion on the email = list? :-)

Thanks!

Ben.

Begin forwarded = message:

From: = Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>
Subject: = [dispatch] Fwd: = New Version Notification for draft-nottingham-link-hint-02.txt
Date: = March 4, 2020 at 1:55:28 AM = CST
To: = DISPATCH WG <dispatch@ietf.org>
Cc: = ART Area <art@ietf.org>

Some folks might = remember this spec; there was some discussion of it on art@ in = 2013. 

Since = then, I've had a stream of folks expressing interest in moving it = forward; they're not typical IETF folk, more people who work on HTTP = APIs.

I'm not = sure what to do with it - hence the ping to dispatch. = Thoughts?

Cheers,

P.S. I'm remote for YVR, so I'll get up at 4am if need be to = remote present for ~5 minutes, but if this could be dispatched on-list, = that would be much appreciated...


Begin forwarded message:

From: internet-drafts@ietf.org
Subject: New Version Notification for = draft-nottingham-link-hint-02.txt
Date: 4 = March 2020 at 5:47:55 pm AEDT
To: "Mark Nottingham" <mnot@mnot.net>


A new version = of I-D, draft-nottingham-link-hint-02.txt
has been = successfully submitted by Mark Nottingham and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name: = draft-nottingham-link-hint
Revision: 02
Title:= = HTTP Link Hints
Document date: = 2020-03-04
Group: Individual Submission
Pages:= = 13
URL: =            https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-nottingham-link-hint= -02.txt
Status: =         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-nottingham-link-hint/
Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-nottingham-link-hint-02Htmlized:       https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-nottingham-link-hin= t
Diff: =           https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-nottingham-link-hint-= 02

Abstract:
=   This memo specifies "HTTP Link Hints", a mechanism for = annotating Web
  links to HTTP(S) resources = with information that otherwise might be
=   discovered by interacting with them.




Please note that = it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat



--
Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/

_______________________________________________
dispatch mailing list
dispatch@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch

= --Apple-Mail=_0A9752D6-C24B-4F6B-9811-5A4A296A4E40-- --Apple-Mail=_A2B012A1-D8E8-4E02-AAAA-2A25D94A314A Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEExW9rpd7ez4DexOFOgFZKbJXz1A0FAl5ql4cACgkQgFZKbJXz 1A3s+hAAj3TgQrj/8TdyI6kFhnbxzb4yMmcFImv/eO1ZlCVwfkE4GCIcxr37L/4d o4Ly26m0Yfd38L1K4wG+exZOzZSE8JI5VTxqsj35/xLDWd/t1MIwg8Y8SO9UZika vXOuC6Ny6i51NzqZHHFRf14pzU2LIrD03PQpMpq+dTKCYiRXLEgz9dXkAPGGyohk W2YI0O/hV3CSn9gNRRzCXtIYgDWduh1ux5Eoq5HkQNFkqM9Kw1ilEpMAHM1PXJzy u2JoNK7uCTEpfp+Zunf2ZMnSaiJzrQJxqUHM0ajlJt2hiL6T/wD06wImQGzGEVZV leP6tXI95YUx3u9C+AfT4ObFRvKX5+qERKt7Ft2aE6psMyXsKgG2Ur0VsnXdSQlm qR5Uqk6NmuJajXvugwvhz5geAIGO8h/rh65b3UJ4zFnIAqYWq58lc1potb+ex5Kt eWToB2Sa7EockazgZjmY5duynkGrMZGM8xVdJTx3q0zJKnSDBme6pnbq9CEqFb3b jADpCtZUpvtLreGItIjGFVDm0IOwPhLPKX3zQi4VFa9aKNzfiNWYMEyIWkxGuMnk e+XVvUxvR+5sbiAzDkxmAjINUEU4e6ef/jg64yBK5gC30PqEwM1vTZ6nSLZoI+pt CiCLFnnojt6GdnnUUgJBn3kkYqoE1iua0Gj5xkDHGXIB31eZxlc= =HlzF -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_A2B012A1-D8E8-4E02-AAAA-2A25D94A314A-- From nobody Thu Mar 12 13:14:42 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3174B3A086A; Thu, 12 Mar 2020 13:14:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.403 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.403 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS=0.274, MAY_BE_FORGED=0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cUal-XI_rS1o; Thu, 12 Mar 2020 13:14:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 899CE3A0868; Thu, 12 Mar 2020 13:14:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.127.239] (mta-70-120-123-175.stx.rr.com [70.120.123.175] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 02CKEaQB029527 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 12 Mar 2020 15:14:37 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1584044078; bh=pKH0rUvt1NPv0rLg0M17VaMexJpmN//c3wdNrq01sA8=; h=From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References; b=pliA2y+ehYyjqI17hkAqONJB2S0BUE0jmGZRDcyXNcOqPVnKg5WCszvNxf8B8LYop FmtVyngwyXYLmp8IlIs36bPIrDFWo7ycDXRzvyvwIiLJiT6jo+kkMAvvfYtphO4WOF o7/fdBaxkG5KKG5+AlCo4wpwJLxpWvQqhTghhunQ= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host mta-70-120-123-175.stx.rr.com [70.120.123.175] (may be forged) claimed to be [192.168.127.239] From: Ben Campbell Message-Id: <77C1ACC4-D5CA-4A27-8507-580304CC4655@nostrum.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_5B288B7C-5C5D-489B-8042-1167BBD67E1F" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.60.0.2.5\)) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 15:14:28 -0500 In-Reply-To: <73852274-8033-4864-94AC-AAC149A9E4E0@nostrum.com> Cc: "Sreekanth Narayanan (sreenara)" , "Kaustubh Inamdar (kinamdar)" , "dispatch-chairs@ietf.org" To: "dispatch@ietf.org" References: <73852274-8033-4864-94AC-AAC149A9E4E0@nostrum.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.60.0.2.5) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] PROPOSED CHARTER FOR ASAP (Automatic SIP trunking And Peering) X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2020 20:14:41 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_5B288B7C-5C5D-489B-8042-1167BBD67E1F Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Again Everyone, I know people have been more caught up in how we handle the cancelation = of the IETF107 in-person meeting than in day to day DISPATCH email. One = way we can handle that is to complete discussions on list rather than = taking meeting time. This seems like a good candidate for that. Thanks! Ben. > On Mar 11, 2020, at 4:21 PM, Ben Campbell wrote: >=20 > Hi Everyone, >=20 > The proponents have gone through a few revisions of the proposed = charter (below) based on list feedback. At this point, we=E2=80=99d like = to call the questions on what to recommend to to the ART ADs. Please = respond to the following questions: >=20 > 1. Is the topic described suitable for a reasonably short-lived = mini-working group, without requiring a separate BoF first? >=20 > 2. Is the charter a good starting point from which to develop a final = charter (through the usual charter review process for new working = groups) >=20 > 3. Would you participate in a working group with a charter = substantially similar to this one? >=20 > Note that we have agenda time allocated for this on an upcoming = virtual meeting (details TBD), but if we can close these questions via = email, we can give that time back to other things. >=20 > Thanks! >=20 > Ben. >=20 >> On Feb 27, 2020, at 10:56 PM, Sreekanth Narayanan (sreenara) = > wrote: >>=20 >> All, >>=20 >> Here are the revisions to the proposed charter of ASAP (Automatic SIP = trunking And Peering) after incorporating the latest comments. = Suggestions/comments are welcome. >>=20 >>=20 >> The deployment of a Session Initiation Protocol (SIP)-based = infrastructure in enterprise and service provider communication networks = is increasing at a rapid pace. Consequently, direct IP peering between = enterprise and service provider networks is quickly replacing = traditional methods of interconnection between enterprise and service = provider networks. >>=20 >> Currently published standards provide a strong foundation over which = direct IP peering can be realized. However, given the sheer number of = these standards, it is often not clear which behavioural subsets, = extensions to baseline protocols and operating principles ought to be = configured by the enterprise network administrator to ensure successful = peering with a SIP service provider network. This lack of context often = leads to interoperability issues between enterprise and service provider = SIP networks resulting in a large number of support cases being opened = with enterprise equipment manufacturers and SIP service providers. = Subsequently, deployment times for SIP trunking between enterprise and = service provider networks increase significantly. >>=20 >> This work would define a descriptive capability set, which is = populated by a SIP service provider, and which, when communicated to an = enterprise network, provides the enterprise network with sufficient = information to setup SIP trunking with the SIP service provider. Such a = capability set would not only result in SIP trunking deployment times = being drastically scaled down, but also would result in a significant = decrease in interoperability issues between enterprise and service = provider network. Over the long run, operational costs for service = providers and enterprise equipment manufactures would likely decrease as = a result of fewer support cases. >>=20 >> This work would make use of HTTPS based framework that allows a SIP = service provider to offload a detailed capability set to the enterprise = network. HTTPS is used in favor of SIP for the following reasons: >> 1. While there are extensions to baseline SIP that could potentially = allow a capability set to be communicated from the service provider to = the enterprise network, none of these extensions are readily usable to = achieve the objective of this work. >> 2. Any modifications to existing SIP-based extensions to fit the = objective of this work would require equipment manufacturers to upgrade = their SIP stacks. >>=20 >> The scope of activity includes: >>=20 >> * Define a robust capability set which encapsulates sufficient = information to ensure smooth IP peering between enterprise and service = provider SIP networks. >> * Define a data model for the capability set. >> * Extensibility of the data model to allow proprietary parameters to = be encoded. >> * A HTTPS-based transport mechanism using which the capability set is = communicated from the service provider network to the enterprise = network. >> * A mechanism to discover the capability server hosted in the SIP = service provider network >>=20 >> The following is out of scope: >> * Extensions to SIP that enable an enterprise network to solicit and = obtain a descriptive capability set from a SIP service provider. >> * A workflow/mechanism that allows service providers to directly = configure devices in the enterprise network. >>=20 >> The group will produce >> * Requirements, Use Cases and Architecture draft. >> * Specification for SIP Auto Peer. >>=20 >> This group will co-ordinate with the SIP core workgroup and the = SIPConnect efforts carried out by the SIP Forum. >>=20 >> Milestones: >> Send protocol specification to IESG >> =20 >> _______________________________________________ >> dispatch mailing list >> dispatch@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch = >=20 --Apple-Mail=_5B288B7C-5C5D-489B-8042-1167BBD67E1F Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi = Again Everyone,

I = know people have been more caught up in how we handle the cancelation of = the IETF107 in-person meeting than in day to day DISPATCH email. One way = we can handle that is to complete discussions on list rather than taking = meeting time. This seems like a good candidate for that.

Thanks!

Ben.

On Mar 11, 2020, at 4:21 PM, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com> = wrote:

Hi Everyone,

The proponents have gone through a few revisions of the = proposed charter (below) based on list feedback. At this point, we=E2=80=99= d like to call the questions on what to recommend to to the ART ADs. = Please respond to the following questions:

1. Is the topic described suitable for = a reasonably short-lived mini-working group, without requiring a = separate BoF first?

2. Is the charter a good starting point from which to develop = a final charter (through the usual charter review process for new = working groups)

3. Would you participate in a working group with a charter = substantially similar to this one?

Note that we have agenda time allocated = for this on an upcoming virtual meeting (details TBD), but if we can = close these questions via email, we can give that time back to other = things.

Thanks!

Ben.

On Feb = 27, 2020, at 10:56 PM, Sreekanth Narayanan (sreenara) <sreenara=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

All,

Here are the revisions to the proposed charter of ASAP = (Automatic SIP trunking And Peering) after incorporating the latest = comments. Suggestions/comments are welcome.


The deployment of a Session Initiation = Protocol (SIP)-based infrastructure in enterprise and service provider = communication networks is increasing at a rapid pace. Consequently, = direct IP peering between enterprise and service provider networks is = quickly replacing traditional methods of interconnection between = enterprise and service provider networks.

Currently published = standards provide a strong foundation over which direct IP peering can = be realized. However, given the sheer number of these standards, it is = often not clear which behavioural subsets, extensions to baseline = protocols and operating principles ought to be configured by the = enterprise network administrator to ensure successful peering with a SIP = service provider network. This lack of context often leads to = interoperability issues between enterprise and service provider SIP = networks resulting in a large number of support cases being opened with = enterprise equipment manufacturers and SIP service providers. = Subsequently, deployment times for SIP trunking between enterprise and = service provider networks increase significantly.

This work would define = a descriptive capability set, which is populated by a SIP service = provider, and which, when communicated to an enterprise network, = provides the enterprise network with sufficient information to setup SIP = trunking with the SIP service provider. Such a capability set would not = only result in SIP trunking deployment times being drastically scaled = down, but also would result in a significant decrease in = interoperability issues between enterprise and service provider network. = Over the long run, operational costs for service providers and = enterprise equipment manufactures would likely decrease as a result of = fewer support cases.

This work would make use of HTTPS based = framework that allows a SIP service provider to offload a detailed = capability set to the enterprise network. HTTPS is used in favor of SIP = for the following reasons:
1. While = there are extensions to baseline SIP that could potentially allow a = capability set to be communicated from the service provider to the = enterprise network, none of these extensions are readily usable to = achieve the objective of this work.
2.= Any modifications to existing SIP-based extensions to fit the objective = of this work would require equipment manufacturers to upgrade their SIP = stacks.

The scope of activity includes:

* Define a robust = capability set which encapsulates sufficient information to ensure = smooth IP peering between enterprise and service provider SIP = networks.
* Define a data model for = the capability set.
* Extensibility = of the data model to allow proprietary parameters to be encoded.
* A HTTPS-based transport mechanism = using which the capability set is communicated from the service provider = network to the enterprise network.
* = A mechanism to discover the capability server hosted in the SIP service = provider network

The following is out of scope:
* Extensions to SIP that enable an = enterprise network to solicit and obtain a descriptive capability set = from a SIP service provider.
* A = workflow/mechanism that allows service providers to directly configure = devices in the enterprise network.
The group will produce
* Requirements, Use Cases and = Architecture draft.
* Specification = for SIP Auto Peer.

This group will co-ordinate with the = SIP core workgroup and the SIPConnect efforts carried out by the SIP = Forum.

Milestones:
<Date = TBD> Send protocol specification to IESG
 
_______________________________________________
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= --Apple-Mail=_5B288B7C-5C5D-489B-8042-1167BBD67E1F-- From netnewsmaster@gmail.com Fri Mar 13 10:43:54 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEF593A03F3 for ; Fri, 13 Mar 2020 10:43:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VKtC4c8NPRU9 for ; Fri, 13 Mar 2020 10:43:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-il1-x12f.google.com (mail-il1-x12f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 59C5D3A03F1 for ; Fri, 13 Mar 2020 10:43:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-il1-x12f.google.com with SMTP id d14so9228352ilq.10 for ; Fri, 13 Mar 2020 10:43:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=tVgzAm2/JM9qwdYgfey9iNg5acsMzIo6Y8w1vNG0lfc=; b=bghHYBOQek7YqzTvehgLTioH/37bdK7j37nN5J3xJD180PTpakV3GWHUP0/L67F+M9 R++4SGEIwu8hNHDz5VUxBhoP3w+P5zyegaiY4gD38MBj/Y+BbrIB9pTHBV0UJkIFAk1I gJjRvORelXbjA7LnrekZj/kwYl49OaNail0FEPt+nAAEc6Hd1oyEvXjXwyvuqgHxxto/ 5RbGrQ4yfsDz49c94+ujmGNTbOODpQ1UUpss1k+q7g7gBHD9RzNxCqwX+WR3HNhtvJdv plk4yPWi1b7nN7h8uY3wEtZXrK9HhmqDKQU+Ilxp05n58xT9KkPSznirnUQb9ONNMTze XQGw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=tVgzAm2/JM9qwdYgfey9iNg5acsMzIo6Y8w1vNG0lfc=; b=F7CvadsSCnUx+YPeJtdCFZMiIIsCOmBV3txseHy2UsYFuyS1TqFX+cdqNRerZkasl2 VW/UPi5ck5xGOSM8mG9OhoDXgnqZ8jYKmSjLMP6vLovaslBmPW6vNAzHavaGBzPffJif IqckYWvOlJmOTWqSCJSegGGfZPiymXfJbbi+v0SJWhefKVA67iquY37AAYZTwMN+eQIC rTGXx9o3a9z1ogVvZKyjdVwP9xtSQsQ/4jRgu4BkrXbWK2y2mLqS8DDhJnTo9ViYWVvd nPzJ6SCO0v+mO+jUk9lNnWyor2O4M3t1jDIl682nRwIFs7DImJzFlrhCiRxUqU9TT3Aq hc+A== X-Gm-Message-State: ANhLgQ0FiyO/4VaSzly7isuzc05RaeEWHqcleaDTVf9230IiSREpvrmb gQNhRo0K6kCaO+0F8Tdjx4WR5ehkio03BPM5oj6j72h2rXZqAQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADFU+vsWIhkSURcVMGG57xrVh/UMBbbphp/ZRBbSLDc5QvxIwhyNM7G5MF7RsnrxqDZ+I3hLhu42b0NeZ18/dmAOlDU= X-Received: by 2002:a92:c851:: with SMTP id b17mr9175545ilq.194.1584121432190; Fri, 13 Mar 2020 10:43:52 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Read News Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 13:43:41 -0400 Message-ID: To: dispatch@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003f355905a0c003af" Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 12:34:35 -0700 Subject: [dispatch] PROPOSAL: NNTP Working Group X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 17:47:26 -0000 --0000000000003f355905a0c003af Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hello Dispatch working group, How are you? I hope you are well and staying safe from Coronavirus. I am writing this email today to see what you would think of an extension of the NNTP (Usenet/Netnews) protocol. The last major update to the NNTP protocol was in 2006, and the last minor update was in 2010. Since then, the total amount of binaries on Usenet has extended by 10 fold. Usually, this would be cause for no concern, since "if it aint broken; don't fix it". However, the sheer massive amounts of these articles have caused some new nonstandardilzed additions to the NNTP protocol between large scale peers. One of these additions are 64-bit article numbers, which was specifically prohibited in 2006 in RFC 3977 but has been added anyway since many newsgroups have exceeded the 2 billion article mark and Usenet providers like HW Media keep articles for a *very* long time. There are many other "unstandarlized" extensions to the NNTP protocol like commands relating to hybrid feeds, binary article feeding, compressed articles, etc. To accomplish standardization of these features, I was wondering if any of you would be interested in contributing to and setting up this WG. I know a fair bit of people who are interested in working on it, and I wanted to see what it would take to get something like this rolling. Thank you! --0000000000003f355905a0c003af Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello Dispatch working=C2=A0group,

How a= re you? I hope you=C2=A0are well and staying safe from Coronavirus.

I am writing this email today to see what you would think= of an extension of the NNTP (Usenet/Netnews) protocol. The last major upda= te to the NNTP protocol was in 2006, and the last minor update was in 2010.= Since then, the total amount of binaries on Usenet has extended by 10 fold= .

Usually, this would be cause for no concern, sin= ce "if it aint broken; don't fix it". However, the sheer mass= ive amounts of these articles have caused some new nonstandardilzed additio= ns=C2=A0to the NNTP protocol between large scale peers. One of these additi= ons are 64-bit article numbers, which was specifically prohibited in 2006 i= n RFC 3977 but has been added anyway since many newsgroups have exceeded th= e 2 billion article=C2=A0mark and Usenet providers like HW Media keep artic= les for a *very* long time. There are many other "unstandarlized"= extensions to the NNTP protocol like commands relating to hybrid feeds, bi= nary article feeding, compressed articles, etc.

To= accomplish standardization=C2=A0of these features, I was wondering if any = of you would be interested in contributing to and setting up this WG. I kno= w a fair bit of people who are interested in working on it, and I wanted to= see what it would take to get something like this rolling. Thank you!
--0000000000003f355905a0c003af-- From nobody Fri Mar 13 13:59:21 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietf.org Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9280D3A0FCE; Fri, 13 Mar 2020 13:59:06 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "\"IETF Secretariat\"" To: , Cc: aamelnikov@fastmail.fm, dispatch@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.121.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <158413314655.3136.10927425542425421467@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 13:59:06 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [dispatch] dispatch - Requested session has been scheduled for IETF 107 X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2020 20:59:19 -0000 Dear Ben Campbell, The session(s) that you have requested have been scheduled. Below is the scheduled session information followed by the original request. dispatch Session 1 (2:00 requested) Monday, 23 March 2020, Session II 2210-0010 Room Name: Virtual Track 1 size: None --------------------------------------------- Special Note: Joint with ARTAREA iCalendar: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/107/sessions/dispatch.ics Request Information: --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: Dispatch Area Name: Applications and Real-Time Area Session Requester: Ben Campbell Number of Sessions: 1 Length of Session(s): 2 Hours Number of Attendees: 80 Conflicts to Avoid: Chair Conflict: rum ice httpbis stir sipcore mmusic ecrit avtcore doh cfrg Technology Overlap: perc cellar capport dmarc jmap uta rmcat extra core opsarea tsvarea tsvwg tram secdispatch Key Participant Conflict: acme cose dprive lamps tls mls quic People who must be present: Murray Kucherawy Ben Campbell Adam Roach Alexey Melnikov Barry Leiba Patrick McManus Resources Requested: Special Requests: Please schedule in the 1st slot on Monday morning, list the meeting as coupled with ARTAREA. Please avoid conflicts with other ART area WGs and BoFs, other area meetings, and Bofs.. --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Sun Mar 15 08:33:00 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCA143A17FB for ; Sun, 15 Mar 2020 08:32:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.639 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.639 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_TEMPERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=comcastmailservice.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1273OlQS8_Kb for ; Sun, 15 Mar 2020 08:32:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from resqmta-ch2-02v.sys.comcast.net (resqmta-ch2-02v.sys.comcast.net [IPv6:2001:558:fe21:29:69:252:207:34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A7D903A1802 for ; Sun, 15 Mar 2020 08:32:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from resomta-ch2-16v.sys.comcast.net ([69.252.207.112]) by resqmta-ch2-02v.sys.comcast.net with ESMTP id DUj6j0nBUQWuCDVFvj4BYc; Sun, 15 Mar 2020 15:32:47 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=comcastmailservice.net; s=20180828_2048; t=1584286367; bh=lkZ0RX3yHX12fDmuz2a6RnM52FExz1aIfDrEr7W37Cs=; h=Received:Received:Received:Received:From:To:Subject:Date: Message-ID; b=pUE1z3Lf8+8f8qzufEiwA7eR4Iwt4o5dkQnG24nheg87CuprUzs83qKU8f6N4p5x4 amZnygYiwUsinq/e0oHa/UU1OEzdUbTWoBjoDyfsVqyyPAdIZZylfbQ3uNWm2zNxtL aLTH3NqZ23BJliyZYqHIXB2MVNfatNWglQy+MpidOif0mJIOQnqVd2BoNE50j7Amns 5NvMHV83ppntX4Fly9qFW9n6tCM3dLIvvRaaCC1XK7AJlPI64uH/n8lqJ8RuIHNwXV JGx9fWstCjsAm/jPG8QLZ2KUy8W6EHJUuh20dlnQ00E/Uc3kBxk1lHrPI5ouY9eNJ1 3BXEGpqJbl59Q== Received: from hobgoblin.ariadne.com ([IPv6:2601:192:4600:c190:222:fbff:fe91:d396]) by resomta-ch2-16v.sys.comcast.net with ESMTPA id DVFuj8Jo77vgvDVFujdXPD; Sun, 15 Mar 2020 15:32:47 +0000 X-Xfinity-VMeta: sc=0.00;st=legit Received: from hobgoblin.ariadne.com (hobgoblin.ariadne.com [127.0.0.1]) by hobgoblin.ariadne.com (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id 02FFWjBk025419; Sun, 15 Mar 2020 11:32:45 -0400 Received: (from worley@localhost) by hobgoblin.ariadne.com (8.14.7/8.14.7/Submit) id 02FFWiWG025416; Sun, 15 Mar 2020 11:32:44 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: hobgoblin.ariadne.com: worley set sender to worley@alum.mit.edu using -f From: worley@ariadne.com (Dale R. Worley) To: Read News Cc: dispatch@ietf.org In-Reply-To: (netnewsmaster@gmail.com) Sender: worley@ariadne.com (Dale R. Worley) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2020 11:32:44 -0400 Message-ID: <87a74hws4j.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] PROPOSAL: NNTP Working Group X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2020 15:32:59 -0000 Read News writes: > I know a fair bit of people who are interested in working on it, and I > wanted to see what it would take to get something like this rolling. It sounds to me like there's good reason to undertake this work. I myself probably won't be participating. But the first step is to get five or 10 of the people who are interested in working on it to say so on this mailing list. Then it shouldn't be hard to get a working group chartered. Dale From nobody Sun Mar 15 10:53:11 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE3BD3A19B9 for ; Sun, 15 Mar 2020 10:53:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aa0_JYcYGZfT for ; Sun, 15 Mar 2020 10:53:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from denver.dinauz.org (denver.dinauz.org [37.59.56.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 874C03A19B5 for ; Sun, 15 Mar 2020 10:53:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by denver.dinauz.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 337836059F; Sun, 15 Mar 2020 18:53:04 +0100 (CET) Received: from denver.dinauz.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (denver.dinauz.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zHJK-C57arUg; Sun, 15 Mar 2020 18:53:04 +0100 (CET) Received: from macbook-pro-de-julien-elie.home (lfbn-idf3-1-527-171.w86-252.abo.wanadoo.fr [86.252.110.171]) by denver.dinauz.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id F0E836046C; Sun, 15 Mar 2020 18:53:03 +0100 (CET) To: dispatch@ietf.org, ietf-nntp@lists.eyrie.org References: <87a74hws4j.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> From: =?UTF-8?Q?Julien_=c3=89LIE?= Organization: TrigoFACILE -- http://www.trigofacile.com/ Message-ID: <9d5f3113-e632-d023-8c02-0a59ddbfe492@trigofacile.com> Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2020 18:51:33 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <87a74hws4j.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] PROPOSAL: NNTP Working Group X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2020 17:53:10 -0000 Hi all, Le 15/03/2020 à 16:32, Dale R. Worley a écrit : > Read News writes: >> I am writing this email today to see what you would think of an extension >> of the NNTP (Usenet/Netnews) protocol. The last major update to the NNTP >> protocol was in 2006, and the last minor update was in 2010. Since then, >> the total amount of binaries on Usenet has extended by 10 fold. >> >> Usually, this would be cause for no concern, since "if it aint broken; >> don't fix it". However, the sheer massive amounts of these articles have >> caused some new nonstandardilzed additions to the NNTP protocol between >> large scale peers. One of these additions are 64-bit article numbers, which >> was specifically prohibited in 2006 in RFC 3977 but has been added anyway >> since many newsgroups have exceeded the 2 billion article mark and Usenet >> providers like HW Media keep articles for a *very* long time. There are >> many other "unstandarlized" extensions to the NNTP protocol like commands >> relating to hybrid feeds, binary article feeding, compressed articles, etc. Yes, standardizing something about how to deal with 64-bit article numbers is worthwhile. Some people already shared ideas about that. Same thing for headers-only/hybrid/hash feeds, PAT command with extended wildmat format and a few other features. There is a list of errata to RFC 3977 that should be dealt with, possibly leading to Version 3 of NNTP. We also need to standardize internationalized Netnews headers. As for compressed articles, note that RFC 8054 took care of it with the COMPRESS command standardized in 2017: It is currently addressed only partially by unstandardized commands like XZVER, XZHDR, XFEATURE COMPRESS, or MODE COMPRESS. Yet, these commands are not wholly satisfactory because they enable compression only for the responses sent by the news server. In comparison, the COMPRESS command permits the compression of data sent by both the client and the server, and removes the constraint of having to implement compression separately in each NNTP command. Besides, the compression level can be dynamically adjusted and optimized at any time during the connection, which even allows disabling compression for certain commands, if needed. If the news client wants to stop compression on a particular connection, it can simply use QUIT ([RFC3977], Section 5.4) and establish a new connection. For these reasons, using other NNTP commands than COMPRESS to enable compression is discouraged once COMPRESS is supported. >> To accomplish standardization of these features, I was wondering if any of >> you would be interested in contributing to and setting up this WG. I know a >> fair bit of people who are interested in working on it, and I wanted to see >> what it would take to get something like this rolling. Thank you! > > It sounds to me like there's good reason to undertake this work. I > myself probably won't be participating. But the first step is to get > five or 10 of the people who are interested in working on it to say so > on this mailing list. Then it shouldn't be hard to get a working group > chartered. I've added the list of the former NNTP working group in the discussion. Maybe people there will be interested in reviving the WG! As far as I am concerned, I'm willing to participate. -- Julien ÉLIE « Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available. » (Benford's law) From nobody Sun Mar 15 11:53:45 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CFDB3A1A8B for ; Sun, 15 Mar 2020 11:53:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Gc889xPBSyom for ; Sun, 15 Mar 2020 11:53:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haven.eyrie.org (haven.eyrie.org [166.84.7.159]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6396A3A1A8A for ; Sun, 15 Mar 2020 11:53:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lothlorien.eyrie.org (96-90-234-101-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [96.90.234.101]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by haven.eyrie.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EA21711858C; Sun, 15 Mar 2020 11:53:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by lothlorien.eyrie.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id A03B8B413D2; Sun, 15 Mar 2020 11:53:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Russ Allbery To: dispatch@ietf.org, ietf-nntp@lists.eyrie.org In-Reply-To: <9d5f3113-e632-d023-8c02-0a59ddbfe492@trigofacile.com> ("Julien =?utf-8?Q?=C3=89LIE=22's?= message of "Sun, 15 Mar 2020 18:51:33 +0100") Organization: The Eyrie References: <87a74hws4j.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> <9d5f3113-e632-d023-8c02-0a59ddbfe492@trigofacile.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.1 (gnu/linux) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2020 11:53:39 -0700 Message-ID: <87y2s14fgs.fsf@hope.eyrie.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] [NNTP] PROPOSAL: NNTP Working Group X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2020 18:53:44 -0000 Julien =C3=89LIE writes: > I've added the list of the former NNTP working group in the > discussion. Maybe people there will be interested in reviving the WG! And, to be explicit, the ietf-nntp mailing list still exists and I'm happy to continue to host it as a working group mailing list (or for that matter any other sort of discussion mailing list) for this purpose if that would be helpful. https://lists.eyrie.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-nntp --=20 Russ Allbery (eagle@eyrie.org) From nobody Sun Mar 15 12:56:14 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 382B93A1B62 for ; Sun, 15 Mar 2020 12:56:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4sWaQJr-Yr_S for ; Sun, 15 Mar 2020 12:56:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lj1-x236.google.com (mail-lj1-x236.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 459EC3A1B61 for ; Sun, 15 Mar 2020 12:56:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x236.google.com with SMTP id r24so16268599ljd.4 for ; Sun, 15 Mar 2020 12:56:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=SYX7Hj73bMou37MtwS3jxdev6LGfIFw5eYBV1HZ0dQw=; b=BINeLujYgpBbbR+XKmjzPePITZfW9sl3T7A4+G9e0xRgsPTisgdQgL5XxIKmvJBJ2J HA4qACoaiI21plN8Iw6l2jHUVwqvEjN1xO4ZaOQ4SMrb4zLA/Jsfp+2gZuG84COvNbTi VpuxroDq82O1pTkt+++HfsqxNFZV8uBa0e0y7bdhJEJCdNwyjW2H9hDmy5mZzeBu96I3 78WwSKgXdDBFuakwzoyN1rqG5bdp722BHNIzjtSqpRuClPA+zxadYoju0ZAGVbc1wswI +s3kGyqLFX8JsNnbJpx8TVQbEKSMLbs7DkpP56vVymoXMYOzOUGRnHSvBZCitzAW/ZzN Al7Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=SYX7Hj73bMou37MtwS3jxdev6LGfIFw5eYBV1HZ0dQw=; b=eDDHXWKjyOcbPYVVm2K/gArWg5NPrcMj6TsDlcnm9nBT6wIrTP9vGQOPHCakrHpN+j AM7v/OfVIatSRGANR617NwYkixHlwhpb+YAkeEMSiqi5SV9l3UyDSg02cQ39BUMX8FIv zXv7LRsRkUKvmRZtgplVUrGY9xsFQc1DiWS+g/y3tCnoz/ciBjiCX6R+WuEcP++KEMa8 ljcnH4AEgLwYGmKZTrshvqJ/fprnhucjKd9030XtUh97Zni+accanDToFy8mKPMhjiG6 ficp+dQvYxjg0PH8a1reH7iwBPoLAQMGS1TGCat+pIHumtTejqrlIy2uKkxFlT/Y4i+3 s2Lw== X-Gm-Message-State: ANhLgQ1CJejemmRNYAHABgCOdJTv07gcUQ35oAuvfjd4qqWMNMUZ+W3u TJ9jVglRNBOVRk7lEQzeqmDqtXov8ZKixbNm6v4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADFU+vt1LvHdv5YQ8hc8sufl0TlN6SEVpONMOLgh9OgYEdWpMROPBQG8golWFolTFvIUoLyR283KPibgC8+h2tlms+E= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:165c:: with SMTP id 28mr13866574ljw.195.1584302168113; Sun, 15 Mar 2020 12:56:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <87a74hws4j.fsf@hobgoblin.ariadne.com> <9d5f3113-e632-d023-8c02-0a59ddbfe492@trigofacile.com> <87y2s14fgs.fsf@hope.eyrie.org> In-Reply-To: <87y2s14fgs.fsf@hope.eyrie.org> From: Read News Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2020 15:55:57 -0400 Message-ID: To: Russ Allbery Cc: dispatch@ietf.org, ietf-nntp@lists.eyrie.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f2861c05a0ea17ac" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] [NNTP] PROPOSAL: NNTP Working Group X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2020 19:56:13 -0000 --000000000000f2861c05a0ea17ac Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sure thats a good idea. Once the working group is formed, then we could use yours. Julien i read your email and I like your ideas. Keep finding any interested people! On Sun, Mar 15, 2020 at 2:53 PM Russ Allbery wrote: > Julien =C3=89LIE writes: > > > I've added the list of the former NNTP working group in the > > discussion. Maybe people there will be interested in reviving the WG! > > And, to be explicit, the ietf-nntp mailing list still exists and I'm happ= y > to continue to host it as a working group mailing list (or for that matte= r > any other sort of discussion mailing list) for this purpose if that would > be helpful. > > https://lists.eyrie.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-nntp > > -- > Russ Allbery (eagle@eyrie.org) > > _______________________________________________ > dispatch mailing list > dispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch > --000000000000f2861c05a0ea17ac Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Sure thats a good idea. Once the w= orking group is formed, then we could use yours.

Julien i read your email and I like your ide= as. Keep finding any interested people!

On Sun, Mar 15, 2020 at 2= :53 PM Russ Allbery <eagle@eyrie.org<= /a>> wrote:
Julien =C3=89LIE <= ;julien@trigofa= cile.com> writes:

> I've added the list of the former NNTP working group in the
> discussion. Maybe people there will be interested in reviving the WG!<= br>
And, to be explicit, the ietf-nntp mailing list still exists and I'm ha= ppy
to continue to host it as a working group mailing list (or for that matter<= br> any other sort of discussion mailing list) for this purpose if that would be helpful.

https://lists.eyrie.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-nntp=

--
Russ Allbery (eagle@ey= rie.org)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https:/= /www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>

_______________________________________________
dispatch mailing list
dispatch@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
--000000000000f2861c05a0ea17ac-- From nobody Sun Mar 15 13:35:49 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E81E3A1BDF for ; Sun, 15 Mar 2020 13:35:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.851 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.851 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=Bkz5PL22; dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=MEnjY4mF Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XVM4omlok845 for ; Sun, 15 Mar 2020 13:35:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EE1B33A1BDD for ; Sun, 15 Mar 2020 13:35:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 51068 invoked from network); 15 Mar 2020 20:35:43 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=c77a.5e6e919f.k2003; bh=Weo8dP5G56JXq2JpZnyQzEBZxpnRKIXD1oPIFQ5fEBI=; b=Bkz5PL22cIX/f5ZUkh3S5Klf+UHYDX5Sz50eP/1PYFbF4YcmAXpC3KQk36w6IpNHpYm9o4X8HkVMaaUexdeR721wj1V0AlpJjyRIOJvqFOBfN5wtgsYPZ5jCBGr6XOxPpSnaZFinGJo8NP8tGE/y0Mq2JkTSNkP5gJu1/sVwkIQFHJYrNgDu5jkkMzJFHQAabLd4YArtxyEWSC9u2/HiYYgwcMZdLluIUreEehtUtU42PziLbUpCFx/Ik9gOYd8n DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=c77a.5e6e919f.k2003; bh=Weo8dP5G56JXq2JpZnyQzEBZxpnRKIXD1oPIFQ5fEBI=; b=MEnjY4mF16taxKeRlk23rDl5n5i7cGzRafCFZ7qemHE5YHusIur22XuJKS0yafQIdaxO6O7ic7XY9RVhhtu8rRDCurPD3PoDo26gTLBYRJyohlpssEFON2OvEaJ+xZO536srlQEA/kDC2/++ZNKTtXZou3eYkSSlL7JoeGtyF03Is6R8DW/Q602VuDoya7gpMScYkk/vuc8vl7GafAHPUcgAEKNB4qg3OS7Xgq1xLrZi1tqClmqngguuXn7JBgXI Received: from ary.qy ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTP via TCP6; 15 Mar 2020 20:35:42 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id E01F91617A46; Sun, 15 Mar 2020 16:35:42 -0400 (EDT) Date: 15 Mar 2020 16:35:42 -0400 Message-Id: <20200315203542.E01F91617A46@ary.qy> From: "John Levine" To: dispatch@ietf.org In-Reply-To: Organization: Taughannock Networks X-Headerized: yes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] PROPOSAL: NNTP Working Group X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2020 20:35:48 -0000 In article you write: >I am writing this email today to see what you would think of an extension >of the NNTP (Usenet/Netnews) protocol. The last major update to the NNTP >protocol was in 2006, and the last minor update was in 2010. Since then, >the total amount of binaries on Usenet has extended by 10 fold. I agree that we could use a modest update to NNTP at least to document and standardize the extensions that large providers are using. From nobody Sun Mar 15 16:03:06 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 068C53A1DBA for ; Sun, 15 Mar 2020 16:03:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.079 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.079 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mfjO1CvMAzLj for ; Sun, 15 Mar 2020 16:03:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A7BFB3A1DB8 for ; Sun, 15 Mar 2020 16:03:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.127.239] (mta-70-120-123-175.stx.rr.com [70.120.123.175] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 02FN2x87020085 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Sun, 15 Mar 2020 18:03:01 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1584313382; bh=+j43l8+zq0RQeHzisPHA9mguK/Hr0cx6OEAyQ8jqxcQ=; h=From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References; b=GAUUV9gYML3OszAqlt6QnDZtmpddgFuN6gzvJKGss1/RQdDEu61+ty+hAukYGZG34 WnzcYDBx/FDoAbOxf6bkw8t/NfagERxJJ+dnUzm/AVyuEnpoC/7m4M8J4lMQRiRfME hHBtnWrxYcTcY+K0RRP8rFtSH6BMOcXHgy6YggL0= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host mta-70-120-123-175.stx.rr.com [70.120.123.175] (may be forged) claimed to be [192.168.127.239] From: Ben Campbell Message-Id: <5250B4B6-E16B-44FC-B293-4B2C963DF398@nostrum.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_1D626384-FF94-4A80-8865-CFA09232DCBB"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.60.0.2.5\)) Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2020 18:02:48 -0500 In-Reply-To: <20200315203542.E01F91617A46@ary.qy> Cc: DISPATCH WG To: John Levine References: <20200315203542.E01F91617A46@ary.qy> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.60.0.2.5) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] PROPOSAL: NNTP Working Group X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2020 23:03:04 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_1D626384-FF94-4A80-8865-CFA09232DCBB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Are the needed extensions obvious and cut-and-dried, or would they need = discussion and thought? (That is, does this need work-group level = discussion or an AD-sponsored draft?) Ben. > On Mar 15, 2020, at 3:35 PM, John Levine wrote: >=20 > In article = = you write: >> I am writing this email today to see what you would think of an = extension >> of the NNTP (Usenet/Netnews) protocol. The last major update to the = NNTP >> protocol was in 2006, and the last minor update was in 2010. Since = then, >> the total amount of binaries on Usenet has extended by 10 fold. >=20 > I agree that we could use a modest update to NNTP at least to document > and standardize the extensions that large providers are using. >=20 > _______________________________________________ > dispatch mailing list > dispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch --Apple-Mail=_1D626384-FF94-4A80-8865-CFA09232DCBB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEExW9rpd7ez4DexOFOgFZKbJXz1A0FAl5utBgACgkQgFZKbJXz 1A1sHA/+P9N6+fMoiFtmD7MwcZnsSZIiJADMc6CVE9HWgKkDSqDwxdd/BsY2tpC0 EyYIkQNs4bG0zN9XGduZdozcZKdHClEdf39zG3bgKwihToxB5ub4vCRbNTo+9MZc XBAUk3CWr13i3O5vBkviKXbBe1t/Ewcs0RQkVYZ1VO7YvVMECbl6lZT21VbcpIKE pWXViNnXaeqY7K1IpZJpLL4RINzVusPnv6KeemEmoL+kKqSlZoLNnQ6U//JS4NHP CYEQPEaK9Dds0KRkfjenzWbo4FdCQ8pU0eLRwTFZeP4uU+4DwTyYFXXMHjVfKRWe y6qRii9nOpCFkRkFUOtAb40SRqFbGIAsIEEI5a4yQ0YouIWpMafeelKYdaLjfI+y f5xe7wCxywaOfJUm28P79T/qZP8ATvxfpwhWslpEJe1OIKKR1N6282UCN/9x+5Ah CxGW96fK8gTsUBrobQJnknQNYQ0SeStcCZLRRP8foCiWs0XLQjgtwXRQwDI1GuEC K4juGVmPH9R0ZKZhzqwGSpzNsqDuKLxCSVdW2y8b78mWeJJaLPCKBj86ucKe2MXk IYriTg3PXBvbJ+iNiFa6Kcakh2IjX3J/oPHceCpbszzkWiZUS3XkiJjH7ZbGdZwi cbrfeuMSL23iVwVWYIsA3HsJdC/43SFodujpM/cXdwMQl8Zb4GY= =PWOk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_1D626384-FF94-4A80-8865-CFA09232DCBB-- From nobody Sun Mar 15 16:15:22 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27C683A1DF7 for ; 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Sun, 15 Mar 2020 16:15:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200315203542.E01F91617A46@ary.qy> <5250B4B6-E16B-44FC-B293-4B2C963DF398@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: <5250B4B6-E16B-44FC-B293-4B2C963DF398@nostrum.com> From: Read News Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2020 19:15:06 -0400 Message-ID: To: Ben Campbell Cc: DISPATCH WG , John Levine Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000030f87b05a0ece0b1" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] PROPOSAL: NNTP Working Group X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2020 23:15:22 -0000 --00000000000030f87b05a0ece0b1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Ben, I think some of the extensions are pretty clear ( what Julien said about the compressed headers on HW Media servers + 64 bit article numbers + the errata in the previous NNTP rfc), but we could also use some discussion and thought on what else we could add. So both I guess. Some guys on the newsgroups are providing us with ideas already, so we could take those into consideration. On Sun, Mar 15, 2020 at 7:03 PM Ben Campbell wrote: > Are the needed extensions obvious and cut-and-dried, or would they need > discussion and thought? (That is, does this need work-group level > discussion or an AD-sponsored draft?) > > Ben. > > > On Mar 15, 2020, at 3:35 PM, John Levine wrote: > > > > In article T1M9bHyXX-n+X1tAw@mail.gmail.com> you write: > >> I am writing this email today to see what you would think of an > extension > >> of the NNTP (Usenet/Netnews) protocol. The last major update to the NNTP > >> protocol was in 2006, and the last minor update was in 2010. Since then, > >> the total amount of binaries on Usenet has extended by 10 fold. > > > > I agree that we could use a modest update to NNTP at least to document > > and standardize the extensions that large providers are using. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > dispatch mailing list > > dispatch@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch > > _______________________________________________ > dispatch mailing list > dispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch > --00000000000030f87b05a0ece0b1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Ben,

I think some of the extensions are pretty clear ( what Julien said a= bout the compressed headers on HW Media servers + 64 bit article numbers + = =C2=A0the errata in the previous NNTP rfc), but we could also use some disc= ussion and thought on what else we could add. So both I guess. Some guys on= the newsgroups are providing us with ideas already, so we could take those= into consideration.


On Sun, Mar 15, = 2020 at 7:03 PM Ben Campbell <ben@nos= trum.com> wrote:
Are the nee= ded extensions obvious and cut-and-dried, or would they need discussion and= thought?=C2=A0 (That is, does this need work-group level discussion or an = AD-sponsored draft?)

Ben.

> On Mar 15, 2020, at 3:35 PM, John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:
>
> In article <CAKNnaCMhmsW07eTkAxXK7_WegNL=3D-n_k=3DT1M9bHyXX-n+X1tAw@ma= il.gmail.com> you write:
>> I am writing this email today to see what you would think of an ex= tension
>> of the NNTP (Usenet/Netnews) protocol. The last major update to th= e NNTP
>> protocol was in 2006, and the last minor update was in 2010. Since= then,
>> the total amount of binaries on Usenet has extended by 10 fold. >
> I agree that we could use a modest update to NNTP at least to document=
> and standardize the extensions that large providers are using.
>
> _______________________________________________
> dispatch mailing list
> dispatch@ietf.o= rg
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch

_______________________________________________
dispatch mailing list
dispatch@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
--00000000000030f87b05a0ece0b1-- From nobody Sun Mar 15 16:29:55 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D75B3A1E2E for ; Sun, 15 Mar 2020 16:29:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=rGyl8RoN; dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=MF6YUsOq Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RNuhLUvLku_J for ; Sun, 15 Mar 2020 16:29:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CD29E3A1E27 for ; Sun, 15 Mar 2020 16:29:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 74897 invoked from network); 15 Mar 2020 23:29:49 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:user-agent; s=1248f.5e6eba6d.k2003; i=johnl-iecc.com@submit.iecc.com; bh=xCUJI/yJ6fcdro6PZDY4SOpiYXaLk9HHJpowdksQqLs=; b=rGyl8RoNUY3wyU62GjSonVdgcfYVj/Wz37gv/U5Q7X2qZQTKFJqs5f+gMllxFxdux3Vh/18HZpRV72PornPIwZi6/agXJJNsIkdmu1spLwLaTn5ZLO2PfF34T2vqbSx8efi+9LRrDCVp5ukaZZOXmMG9kFWQkACknWG6d+OJ8MNih6CUFAz+LwjsF6X/r1LFYREr3PbQ7v76DuV5SH7M63+w/gza4dxNEc5PDAOwgY54bfm/kcK7vbY4RHzKiZkr DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:user-agent; s=1248f.5e6eba6d.k2003; olt=johnl-iecc.com@submit.iecc.com; bh=xCUJI/yJ6fcdro6PZDY4SOpiYXaLk9HHJpowdksQqLs=; b=MF6YUsOqrdswdGNRfIL/IYMRMhApGeS7DG1z4+Tj7XdzuOET3uKGbolGgMluicSSIbgcE9AVLn5DBX641B5VqZaOw5CTgXzxhk96Tt6ZG87ywVxP+0lMLZysHUrypmh0ZUecBvOhvFrqSnVQEBhwwLnmFNgtCek8gIoSKbZ4lUnd7q7HDwQBKCOB12GDwAi16tiTc9DVKDoetvRQNxaYoUAtpt51pObXf7NbaDhhEQBDEcLpR+ZyrL3mo66JV2GY Received: from localhost ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTPSA (TLS1.3 ECDHE-RSA AES-256-GCM AEAD, johnl@iecc.com) via TCP6; 15 Mar 2020 23:29:49 -0000 Date: 15 Mar 2020 19:29:49 -0400 Message-ID: From: "John R Levine" To: "Ben Campbell" Cc: "DISPATCH WG" In-Reply-To: <5250B4B6-E16B-44FC-B293-4B2C963DF398@nostrum.com> References: <20200315203542.E01F91617A46@ary.qy> <5250B4B6-E16B-44FC-B293-4B2C963DF398@nostrum.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.22 (OSX 407 2020-02-09) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] PROPOSAL: NNTP Working Group X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 15 Mar 2020 23:29:53 -0000 > Are the needed extensions obvious and cut-and-dried, or would they need discussion and thought? (That is, does this need work-group level discussion or an AD-sponsored draft?) It depends. There are a some things like 64 bit sequence numbers which are documenting widespread existing practice. There's other stuff that might need a little work to reconcile different versions. Perhaps we can ask the guy who proposed this to send in an I-D so we can see how ambitious the changes are. I'm happy to edit and make it I-D-ish. Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly From nobody Mon Mar 16 04:36:41 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A64B63A2328 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 2020 04:36:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=verisign.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QHgfwylmLJT7 for ; 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Mon, 16 Mar 2020 07:36:00 -0400 Received: from BRN1WNEX02.vcorp.ad.vrsn.com ([fe80::7c0a:1cc:5def:9dde]) by BRN1WNEX02.vcorp.ad.vrsn.com ([fe80::7c0a:1cc:5def:9dde%4]) with mapi id 15.01.1913.005; Mon, 16 Mar 2020 07:36:00 -0400 From: "Hollenbeck, Scott" To: "johnl@taugh.com" , "ben@nostrum.com" CC: "dispatch@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [EXTERNAL] Re: [dispatch] PROPOSAL: NNTP Working Group Thread-Index: AQHV+wlH9ippGWtYU02tOFlBhLfo7qhKiKwAgAAHjICAAIY6gA== Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2020 11:36:00 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20200315203542.E01F91617A46@ary.qy> <5250B4B6-E16B-44FC-B293-4B2C963DF398@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.170.148.18] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] PROPOSAL: NNTP Working Group X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2020 11:36:39 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: dispatch On Behalf Of John R Levine > Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2020 7:30 PM > To: Ben Campbell > Cc: DISPATCH WG > Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [dispatch] PROPOSAL: NNTP Working Group > > > Are the needed extensions obvious and cut-and-dried, or would they > > need discussion and thought? (That is, does this need work-group > > level discussion or an AD-sponsored draft?) > > It depends. There are a some things like 64 bit sequence numbers which a= re > documenting widespread existing practice. There's other stuff that might > need a little work to reconcile different versions. > > Perhaps we can ask the guy who proposed this to send in an I-D so we can > see how ambitious the changes are. I'm happy to edit and make it I-D-ish= . I was the AD who shut down nntpext in 2005. At the time, the WG had devolve= d to two people who couldn't agree on much of anything and no one else both= ering to participate. A lot can change in 15 years, but before we resurrect= the WG it would be a good idea to see a detailed description of the curren= t issues in I-D format. It'll help people decide if it's something that the= y're willing to support and get involved with. Scott From nobody Mon Mar 16 09:56:10 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 522BA3A0D37 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 2020 09:56:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.677 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.677 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MAY_BE_FORGED=0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3pLGKCuYV3d4 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 2020 09:56:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 95C6C3A0D32 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 2020 09:56:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.127.239] (mta-70-120-123-175.stx.rr.com [70.120.123.175] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 02GGtwLu009761 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 16 Mar 2020 11:55:59 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1584377761; bh=zK2p6JBX9r7w2ejIlG/IujDdmm5/yJsKkzmjF58gCzE=; h=From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References; b=Dwxx/hJ5lkazTTNeAefzRMUWuo0iOBJyCcxB11JFFiezyjIIP9yKpoGFkHITw80Cd 5Is4iFptwMHj9HezeCqpruC5oPcwg0EdKbWhHPwnV3MohMrxO0hlIg/H1EkjyeUuzc GDNMll7TqBiADlBrrbnAOWDeLAgY0yD54yoVPrkU= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host mta-70-120-123-175.stx.rr.com [70.120.123.175] (may be forged) claimed to be [192.168.127.239] From: Ben Campbell Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_A87B6395-DB66-4D40-99F0-7C9381510EB7"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.60.0.2.5\)) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2020 11:55:47 -0500 In-Reply-To: Cc: "johnl@taugh.com" , "dispatch@ietf.org" , "Hollenbeck, Scott" To: netnewsmaster@gmail.com References: <20200315203542.E01F91617A46@ary.qy> <5250B4B6-E16B-44FC-B293-4B2C963DF398@nostrum.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.60.0.2.5) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] PROPOSAL: NNTP Working Group X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2020 16:56:09 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_A87B6395-DB66-4D40-99F0-7C9381510EB7 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_D4A53714-5F83-4F51-8C4B-FC987D40C0FF" --Apple-Mail=_D4A53714-5F83-4F51-8C4B-FC987D40C0FF Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii (Adding the original poster in case they are not subscribed yet) In summary, I think enough people have responded to show that there may = be interest in some work in this area, but people want more details on = the issues to be fixed. The appropriate next step would be to submit an = internet-draft that discusses those issues in detail. Thanks! Ben. > On Mar 16, 2020, at 6:36 AM, Hollenbeck, Scott = wrote: >=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: dispatch On Behalf Of John R Levine >> Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2020 7:30 PM >> To: Ben Campbell >> Cc: DISPATCH WG >> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [dispatch] PROPOSAL: NNTP Working Group >>=20 >>> Are the needed extensions obvious and cut-and-dried, or would they >>> need discussion and thought? (That is, does this need work-group >>> level discussion or an AD-sponsored draft?) >>=20 >> It depends. There are a some things like 64 bit sequence numbers = which are >> documenting widespread existing practice. There's other stuff that = might >> need a little work to reconcile different versions. >>=20 >> Perhaps we can ask the guy who proposed this to send in an I-D so we = can >> see how ambitious the changes are. I'm happy to edit and make it = I-D-ish. >=20 > I was the AD who shut down nntpext in 2005. At the time, the WG had = devolved to two people who couldn't agree on much of anything and no one = else bothering to participate. A lot can change in 15 years, but before = we resurrect the WG it would be a good idea to see a detailed = description of the current issues in I-D format. It'll help people = decide if it's something that they're willing to support and get = involved with. >=20 > Scott >=20 > _______________________________________________ > dispatch mailing list > dispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch = --Apple-Mail=_D4A53714-5F83-4F51-8C4B-FC987D40C0FF Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
(Adding the original poster in case they are not = subscribed yet)

In summary, I think = enough people have responded to show that there may be interest in some = work in this area, but people want more details on the issues to be = fixed. The appropriate next step would be to submit an internet-draft = that discusses those issues in detail.

Thanks!

Ben.

On Mar 16, 2020, at 6:36 AM, = Hollenbeck, Scott <shollenbeck=3D40verisign.com@dmarc.ietf.org> = wrote:

-----Original Message-----
From: dispatch = <dispatch-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of John R = Levine
Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2020 7:30 PM
To: Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>
Cc: DISPATCH WG <dispatch@ietf.org>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [dispatch] PROPOSAL: NNTP Working = Group

Are the needed extensions obvious and cut-and-dried, or would = they
need discussion and thought?  (That is, does = this need work-group
level discussion or an AD-sponsored = draft?)

It depends. =  There are a some things like 64 bit sequence numbers which are
documenting widespread existing practice.  There's other = stuff that might
need a little work to reconcile different = versions.

Perhaps we can ask the guy who = proposed this to send in an I-D so we can
see how = ambitious the changes are.  I'm happy to edit and make it = I-D-ish.

I was the AD who shut down nntpext in 2005. At the time, the = WG had devolved to two people who couldn't agree on much of anything and = no one else bothering to participate. A lot can change in 15 years, but = before we resurrect the WG it would be a good idea to see a detailed = description of the current issues in I-D format. It'll help people = decide if it's something that they're willing to support and get = involved with.

Scott

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Thank you all and I will let you know when I submit it. I will also be signing up on the mailing list with my real name and personal email so people know who I am. On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 12:56 PM Ben Campbell wrote: > (Adding the original poster in case they are not subscribed yet) > > In summary, I think enough people have responded to show that there may be > interest in some work in this area, but people want more details on the > issues to be fixed. The appropriate next step would be to submit an > internet-draft that discusses those issues in detail. > > Thanks! > > Ben. > > On Mar 16, 2020, at 6:36 AM, Hollenbeck, Scott < > shollenbeck=40verisign.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > From: dispatch On Behalf Of John R Levine > Sent: Sunday, March 15, 2020 7:30 PM > To: Ben Campbell > Cc: DISPATCH WG > Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [dispatch] PROPOSAL: NNTP Working Group > > Are the needed extensions obvious and cut-and-dried, or would they > need discussion and thought? (That is, does this need work-group > level discussion or an AD-sponsored draft?) > > > It depends. There are a some things like 64 bit sequence numbers which are > documenting widespread existing practice. There's other stuff that might > need a little work to reconcile different versions. > > Perhaps we can ask the guy who proposed this to send in an I-D so we can > see how ambitious the changes are. I'm happy to edit and make it I-D-ish. > > > I was the AD who shut down nntpext in 2005. At the time, the WG had > devolved to two people who couldn't agree on much of anything and no one > else bothering to participate. A lot can change in 15 years, but before we > resurrect the WG it would be a good idea to see a detailed description of > the current issues in I-D format. It'll help people decide if it's > something that they're willing to support and get involved with. > > Scott > > _______________________________________________ > dispatch mailing list > dispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch > > > --00000000000013a2a005a0fc2166 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yes I am working on a internet draft as we speak. Th= ank you all and I will let you know when I submit it.

I will also be signing up on the= mailing list with my real name and personal email so people know who I am.=

= On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 12:56 PM Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com> wrote:
(Adding the original poster in case they are not subscribed yet)

In summary, I think enough people have responded to show th= at there may be interest in some work in this area, but people want more de= tails on the issues to be fixed. The appropriate next step would be to subm= it an internet-draft that discusses those issues in detail.

<= /div>
Thanks!

Ben.

On Mar 16, 2020, at 6:36 AM, Hollenbeck, Scott <s= hollenbeck=3D40verisign.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

-----Original Message-----
From: = dispatch <dispatch-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of John R Levine
Sent: Sund= ay, March 15, 2020 7:30 PM
To: Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>
Cc: DISPATCH WG <= ;dispatch@ietf.org>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [dispatch] PROPOSAL: NNTP Working Group
Are the needed extensions obvious and cut-a= nd-dried, or would they
need discussion and thought? =C2=A0(That is, doe= s this need work-group
level discussion or an AD-sponsored draft?)

It depends.=C2=A0 There are a some things like 64 bit sequen= ce numbers which are
documenting widespread existing practice.=C2=A0 The= re's other stuff that might
need a little work to reconcile differen= t versions.

Perhaps we can ask the guy who proposed this to send in = an I-D so we can
see how ambitious the changes are.=C2=A0 I'm happy = to edit and make it I-D-ish.

I was the AD who shut down = nntpext in 2005. At the time, the WG had devolved to two people who couldn&= #39;t agree on much of anything and no one else bothering to participate. A= lot can change in 15 years, but before we resurrect the WG it would be a g= ood idea to see a detailed description of the current issues in I-D format.= It'll help people decide if it's something that they're willin= g to support and get involved with.

Scott

_______________________________________________
dispatch mailing list
dispatch@ietf.org
https:/= /www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch

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Wed, 18 Mar 2020 11:08:12 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1584547693; bh=ddrMGqUA3f0wQc8VDF5yZAMkA85jjT1MLi2RcCJjrSo=; h=From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References; b=Ye8pL6AV8Wh94zqiV0cRUhbNez+B/0vJ5aqrmwewPXUDMDO5G3fW3OWOpBkR9H3V9 Jkr8I642u4GT1TarpGto7HFwpuGn16ABPHggBkz/KA4ZclvSQHdLR06yXiwkpT93ge ylLWzW+xEj5UvKmAH/t0ghBXp1TEgfDyIUnLlOJ0= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host mta-70-120-123-175.stx.rr.com [70.120.123.175] (may be forged) claimed to be [192.168.127.239] From: Ben Campbell Message-Id: <5DC9DFEB-7B44-402B-BD10-5A6B27F11145@nostrum.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_738AD594-E2DF-464B-8F07-FED88760FBE6"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.60.0.2.5\)) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 11:07:56 -0500 In-Reply-To: Cc: Patrick McManus To: "dispatch@ietf.org" References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.60.0.2.5) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] Virtual IETF107 - SRT draft is available X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 16:08:24 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_738AD594-E2DF-464B-8F07-FED88760FBE6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi All, The chairs would like to see comments about what an appropriate = discussion venue for this draft would be. It seems like it sits on the = border between TSV and ART. Thanks! Ben. > On Mar 18, 2020, at 1:37 AM, =EA=B9=80=EC=A4=80=EC=9B=85=EB=8B=98(JOONWO= ONG.KIM) wrote: >=20 > Hi all >=20 > I would like to draw you attention to SRT draft which is added in the = last minute to the agenda of DISPATCH session, coming week (if time is = allowed after existing agenda items are handled): >=20 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-sharabayko-mops-srt/ >=20 > SRT (Secure Reliable Transport) protocol is a user level protocol = optimized for low-latency live video contribution based on UDT and UDP, = over different network conditions. While it has been rather successfully = deployed by some industries, we would like to make it an Internet = standard and further collaborate in IETF communities for enhancements, = which would be beneficial to Internet community and Industries. >=20 > The draft was originally submitted for MOPS WG of IETF 107 for = discussions, but now there will not be any MOPS meeting until late = April. Therefore we would like to discuss this draft in DISPATCH, which = might be more appropriate venue to find out where and how a new protocol = draft can be handled. I appreciate DISPATCH leaderships and members, for = kind consideration. >=20 > If you need more clarification about SRT protocol or our intention, = please let me know. Any comments or discussions before the meeting would = be helpful as well. In the meantime, you can find more information about = SRT here (white papers, simple video clips, and open source code): > https://www.srtalliance.org/ > http://www3.haivision.com/srt-open-source-wp > https://github.com/Haivision/srt >=20 > Thanks so much for reading and your help in advance. >=20 > thanks > Joonwoong > =3D=3D > Joonwoong Kim | Global Standardization | SK Telecom = mailto:joonwoong.kim@sk.com >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > dispatch mailing list > dispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch --Apple-Mail=_738AD594-E2DF-464B-8F07-FED88760FBE6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEExW9rpd7ez4DexOFOgFZKbJXz1A0FAl5yR10ACgkQgFZKbJXz 1A0lfA//cTBKldUB6R5VxJ38J+TnVMcSbkxhv/xfcILGsyLrUVwWPl3EZh7lP/b9 OecAsASnitTyug+pR/wTNz3U5z8l5d65pL3WSDDJsXDmPAZmUDVsOB8D3kXclfqR UKXxohNGhsSxS3Sdyg0LoHjBiO/E8C2WJDYj4ZUTnYDytcVlezpn46clM4GkNOva +y074SJ8BvWcW787IfBe+Cu6WPitFkup7C0Rd+L8XI+YikfB2u9zenZkKlRPNc7v RG4U8sg0BHnPdFgJ8TaS1eN0+4NJ/VU8wEu5Js9O5oAqlVp3zvfGA9IkXoBEkqOU FeHOABRdC1nRnVi4HYNOlDKDf5HrygLU8oxf35Jo+M8DpiYMCRnON04YlazpSO1G m73q3UE6poR06GlErMOqIlmG+zuxWzG1d4dh1/ODZSTsefB+0gcc9YnoqFbuxYUC rLEE1Ivk2MEH9yqBtFPQfGan04eT5NOsMwUmIG3+CGwx3xgrMCzyHB8JcDbXxsa/ c8BPCiZYKhtxdh/ISi48gDQEf2DGWkgn7RWR4Ir+wog1sLnoMIjAjpVHV/cpbR02 yDpGMxpatNNhX+KgehI5LwzvZohJQ/0ZysbDTbfRrWc6Y6KmhxJ5RaDo9Ig/jrRs JfdCzkao2RYyD8V7QrdLB+rlytAiL5uXYNzhj5KCUBV6RpSg8/k= =u76d -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_738AD594-E2DF-464B-8F07-FED88760FBE6-- From nobody Wed Mar 18 09:24:22 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 824873A1850; Wed, 18 Mar 2020 09:24:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nbcuni.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id s-A9u7ZmYW8j; Wed, 18 Mar 2020 09:24:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-00176a04.pphosted.com (mx0b-00176a04.pphosted.com [67.231.157.49]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 850F73A18AA; Wed, 18 Mar 2020 09:24:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0048208.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0048208.ppops.net-00176a04. 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multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e9716d05a123829d" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] Virtual IETF107 - SRT draft is available X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 16:26:28 -0000 --000000000000e9716d05a123829d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I would say ART. This is for media, not a generic transport protocol like QUIC. On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 9:08 AM Ben Campbell wrote: > Hi All, > > The chairs would like to see comments about what an appropriate discussio= n > venue for this draft would be. It seems like it sits on the border betwee= n > TSV and ART. > > Thanks! > > Ben. > > > On Mar 18, 2020, at 1:37 AM, =EA=B9=80=EC=A4=80=EC=9B=85=EB=8B=98(JOONW= OONG.KIM) > wrote: > > > > Hi all > > > > I would like to draw you attention to SRT draft which is added in the > last minute to the agenda of DISPATCH session, coming week (if time is > allowed after existing agenda items are handled): > > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-sharabayko-mops-srt/ > > > > SRT (Secure Reliable Transport) protocol is a user level protocol > optimized for low-latency live video contribution based on UDT and UDP, > over different network conditions. While it has been rather successfully > deployed by some industries, we would like to make it an Internet standar= d > and further collaborate in IETF communities for enhancements, which would > be beneficial to Internet community and Industries. > > > > The draft was originally submitted for MOPS WG of IETF 107 for > discussions, but now there will not be any MOPS meeting until late April. > Therefore we would like to discuss this draft in DISPATCH, which might be > more appropriate venue to find out where and how a new protocol draft can > be handled. I appreciate DISPATCH leaderships and members, for kind > consideration. > > > > If you need more clarification about SRT protocol or our intention, > please let me know. Any comments or discussions before the meeting would = be > helpful as well. In the meantime, you can find more information about SRT > here (white papers, simple video clips, and open source code): > > https://www.srtalliance.org/ > > http://www3.haivision.com/srt-open-source-wp > > https://github.com/Haivision/srt > > > > Thanks so much for reading and your help in advance. > > > > thanks > > Joonwoong > > =3D=3D > > Joonwoong Kim | Global Standardization | SK Telecom mailto: > joonwoong.kim@sk.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > dispatch mailing list > > dispatch@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch > > _______________________________________________ > dispatch mailing list > dispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch > --000000000000e9716d05a123829d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I would say ART. This is for media, not a generic transpor= t protocol like QUIC.

On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 9:08 AM Ben Campbell <<= a href=3D"mailto:ben@nostrum.com">ben@nostrum.com> wrote:
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l= eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Hi All,

The chairs would like to see comments about what an appropriate discussion = venue for this draft would be. It seems like it sits on the border between = TSV and ART.

Thanks!

Ben.

> On Mar 18, 2020, at 1:37 AM, =EA=B9=80=EC=A4=80=EC=9B=85=EB=8B=98(JOON= WOONG.KIM) <jo= onwoong.kim@sk.com> wrote:
>
> Hi all
>
> I would like to draw you attention to SRT draft which is added in the = last minute to the agenda of DISPATCH session, coming week (if time is allo= wed after existing agenda items are handled):
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/dra= ft-sharabayko-mops-srt/
>
> SRT (Secure Reliable Transport) protocol is a user level protocol opti= mized for low-latency live video contribution based on UDT and UDP, over di= fferent network conditions. While it has been rather successfully deployed = by some industries, we would like to make it an Internet standard and furth= er collaborate in IETF communities for enhancements, which would be benefic= ial to Internet community and Industries.
>
> The draft was originally submitted for MOPS WG of IETF 107 for discuss= ions, but now there will not be any MOPS meeting until late April. Therefor= e we would like to discuss this draft in DISPATCH, which might be more appr= opriate venue to find out where and how a new protocol draft can be handled= . I appreciate DISPATCH leaderships and members, for kind consideration. >
> If you need more clarification about SRT protocol or our intention, pl= ease let me know. Any comments or discussions before the meeting would be h= elpful as well. In the meantime, you can find more information about SRT he= re (white papers, simple video clips, and open source code):
> https://www.srtalliance.org/
> http://www3.haivision.com/srt-open-source-wp > https://github.com/Haivision/srt
>
> Thanks so much for reading and your help in advance.
>
> thanks
> Joonwoong
> =3D=3D
> Joonwoong Kim | Global Standardization | SK Telecom mailto:joonwoong.kim@sk.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> dispatch mailing list
> dispatch@ietf.o= rg
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch

_______________________________________________
dispatch mailing list
dispatch@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
--000000000000e9716d05a123829d-- From nobody Wed Mar 18 09:30:52 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 778253A182C for ; Wed, 18 Mar 2020 09:30:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id J4jLVDfT2UsF for ; Wed, 18 Mar 2020 09:30:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf1-x12b.google.com (mail-lf1-x12b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::12b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DA8B83A07AD for ; Wed, 18 Mar 2020 09:30:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf1-x12b.google.com with SMTP id f3so10680563lfc.1 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 2020 09:30:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=6c1WMXz5pZJAJFZpab4Ri5sbubq27yKqaUp6e+nQ3tA=; b=Y2m+8GWdsjeW6MoKkua58ZvxgBFXznFWbC6OlJ+MCS2vfiqRw2Sl0mxZffE17R07oo 7vDz0e3EFmbppoo2Iw98DrXTQKnYl2lJumQOpFlVIbK/BaCN8tGizDQ7eZZx8PHXV9Pz ujq+5ueomkP3YI3hbSAnmdzCDi+zWso5JtHT8XVbQRCIgvSyS4B/hiD4thA4VH2ICiji GvgUXw9YCBkKvjp8O9yq/vJ+dW37t3vGPpqrGE889TIJOQ7fqYUn1TPP+swkLIHrRSPS q0FMw4XYHEMh6yTUT2NBEYMYXN9MZkBg7wXZ72vuVd4L+oEBRD5EcDdMRIYS+A7jS+ac ta1g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=6c1WMXz5pZJAJFZpab4Ri5sbubq27yKqaUp6e+nQ3tA=; b=mVBaqQ2/hP4SnTolkux0+Q+xhVjEjMIaDnc82/6kP5HW5A3eHx/Ej3ee3ee7sCZ606 t+uPoATK1NVUb3ZZSYVx6M6f7KjhzMhBHzgseiynx/UKiYut0hOFnr2WJwUWd/6mdfDo KORQj+X6HJyAIpvIXyP3+lVdoTVwNhAtC/eGjx325i4yg34HAS4rPjlOucqLlgwowHck kZXIDnma97E5GDMm9YGtePEEsdWHuwH/JS5nLor5bjLp7xSHCAROq5AQihdk0SRwFmZz pgDtLjtNX9XMHrdPWH57rz/0hYwKEUnDkkU5UmDspq8NktqOjL5snb/4/Zx1WHXvJqeT XUgg== X-Gm-Message-State: ANhLgQ2lt/vmHaDDH3sze9cQtZxMtDD9d/Zc2lf+nY+5T/dW8PCHEiiH AecMM+vWSzNWhBYvs1McI+9aDDYCilXOLCassFwy3g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADFU+vvoqQ7NHtLBoxQUv0HtFNrg7Oh+3V/TpfFRvnbt9E/8asxdir7+ICV9ba9VIf2ceqBzoPBfMdd9ZXjNSppDp2U= X-Received: by 2002:ac2:593a:: with SMTP id v26mr3403848lfi.109.1584549044011; Wed, 18 Mar 2020 09:30:44 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Eric Rescorla Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 09:30:07 -0700 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?B?6rmA7KSA7JuF64uYKEpPT05XT09ORy5LSU0p?= Cc: "dispatch@ietf.org" , "joonwoong@gmail.com" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e5db2705a1239210" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] Virtual IETF107 - SRT draft is available X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 16:30:50 -0000 --000000000000e5db2705a1239210 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Despite the title "secure" the description of encryption is rather thin. For instance, it appears that data packets can be "encrypted" but this does not describe how AFAICT. Is there a complete description somewhere? What are the desired security properties of this protocol? -Ekr On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 11:37 PM =EA=B9=80=EC=A4=80=EC=9B=85=EB=8B=98(JOONW= OONG.KIM) wrote: > Hi all > > I would like to draw you attention to SRT draft which is added in the las= t > minute to the agenda of DISPATCH session, coming week (if time is allowed > after existing agenda items are handled): > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-sharabayko-mops-srt/ > > SRT (Secure Reliable Transport) protocol is a user level protocol > optimized for low-latency live video contribution based on UDT and UDP, > over different network conditions. While it has been rather successfully > deployed by some industries, we would like to make it an Internet standar= d > and further collaborate in IETF communities for enhancements, which would > be beneficial to Internet community and Industries. > > The draft was originally submitted for MOPS WG of IETF 107 for > discussions, but now there will not be any MOPS meeting until late April. > Therefore we would like to discuss this draft in DISPATCH, which might be > more appropriate venue to find out where and how a new protocol draft can > be handled. I appreciate DISPATCH leaderships and members, for kind > consideration. > > If you need more clarification about SRT protocol or our intention, pleas= e > let me know. Any comments or discussions before the meeting would be > helpful as well. In the meantime, you can find more information about SRT > here (white papers, simple video clips, and open source code): > https://www.srtalliance.org/ > http://www3.haivision.com/srt-open-source-wp > https://github.com/Haivision/srt > > Thanks so much for reading and your help in advance. > > thanks > Joonwoong > =3D=3D > Joonwoong Kim | Global Standardization | SK Telecom mailto: > joonwoong.kim@sk.com > > > _______________________________________________ > dispatch mailing list > dispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch > --000000000000e5db2705a1239210 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Despite the title "secure" the description = of encryption is rather thin. For instance, it appears that data packets ca= n be "encrypted" but this does not describe how AFAICT. Is there = a complete description somewhere? What are the desired security properties = of this protocol?

-Ekr




On Tue, Mar 17, 2020 at 11:37 PM =EA=B9=80=EC=A4= =80=EC=9B=85=EB=8B=98(JOONWOONG.KIM) <joonwoong.kim@sk.com> wrote:
Hi all

I would like to draw you attention to SRT draft which is added in the last = minute to the agenda of DISPATCH session, coming week (if time is allowed a= fter existing agenda items are handled):

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-sh= arabayko-mops-srt/

SRT (Secure Reliable Transport) protocol is a user level protocol optimized= for low-latency live video contribution based on UDT and UDP, over differe= nt network conditions. While it has been rather successfully deployed by so= me industries, we would like to make it an Internet standard and further co= llaborate in IETF communities for enhancements, which would be beneficial t= o Internet community and Industries.

The draft was originally submitted for MOPS WG of IETF 107 for discussions,= but now there will not be any MOPS meeting until late April. Therefore we = would like to discuss this draft in DISPATCH, which might be more appropria= te venue to find out where and how a new protocol draft can be handled. I a= ppreciate DISPATCH leaderships and members, for kind consideration.

If you need more clarification about SRT protocol or our intention, please = let me know. Any comments or discussions before the meeting would be helpfu= l as well. In the meantime, you can find more information about SRT here (w= hite papers, simple video clips, and open source code):
https://www.srtalliance.org/
http://www3.haivision.com/srt-open-source-wp
https://github.com/Haivision/srt

Thanks so much for reading and your help in advance.

thanks
Joonwoong
=3D=3D
Joonwoong Kim | Global Standardization | SK Telecom mailto:joonwoong.kim@sk.com


_______________________________________________
dispatch mailing list
dispatch@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
--000000000000e5db2705a1239210-- From nobody Wed Mar 18 13:26:12 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4B1A3A1B96 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 2020 13:26:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lowentropy.net header.b=sxcT7vuM; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=Clqzo3vs Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9x0svAfL6kig for ; Wed, 18 Mar 2020 13:26:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com (out5-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6CAED3A1B95 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 2020 13:26:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.42]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97ECC5C03B1 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 2020 16:26:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imap2 ([10.202.2.52]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 18 Mar 2020 16:26:06 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lowentropy.net; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:from:to :subject:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=fm1; bh=ZrCqW vNZfGDl4klP653z9tQS3dpJMNML7pu25BGamG0=; b=sxcT7vuMlq9KjCQIc1K1Y CXRM12D3XS14uCW/MDLDlddnxN5gtJfZ2N6gNbkx/KnYU6WWw3H8IE2Zn03TK49h Qaby98BAt8fSW/xjSaCsOwDq6LYOL+7qUC6Lqk7JlUIVpI5NKBsJXqNgcO+9rP2w 6bD02e2/enMJeN673R3262bz+G7/wOJB15yD7f9yTP/ZLxZBr0NuajmnFyx05uuc 2QqJsszCA220t88tex5FL4HawHx6YE3RyUnkWPJSl4RO7r8kllosqRKYU2aXoU2m Nt1eqzyrr+yeg2A7YcxzgxXfBhQAM9J3nNjRUiR4Yv99eLPybHe+AVud2454cwPF A== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=ZrCqWvNZfGDl4klP653z9tQS3dpJMNML7pu25BGam G0=; b=Clqzo3vsTVcWJsJiy0wDhXm5/x4l9YAl6WjoSHBn4aGYnzHlNYRFS+TBX 8aEhvOYYxHu6x7tAyT2wHTshDJaGfOkQ6s/yXSHnDIFDi2JHWvkAPjIC90NHKun7 /a9X8ksE9gtfhfbcXaica5Yc3IHy68EJElk62t35VIoXosuaElaTtsxXlREvycdu qGJaJHAtnw/SOXtSSIHs+otRWzjgIRvtqfa9mfL7bvF/D28zpr35FXbM0mYNJks7 OjQELQCtpbreqRjuWDiRp/+u/KPIUTiiyPmNihH2VAXLCK6O9r7uK2AhAfWHTaDy 7pBCXAAsafwInjt56g/KYQXFGSGPg== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedugedrudefjedguddvlecutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepofgfggfkjghffffhvffutgfgse htqhertderreejnecuhfhrohhmpedfofgrrhhtihhnucfvhhhomhhsohhnfdcuoehmthes lhhofigvnhhtrhhophihrdhnvghtqeenucffohhmrghinhepkhhimhhskhdrtghomhdpih gvthhfrdhorhhgpdhsrhhtrghllhhirghntggvrdhorhhgpdhhrghivhhishhiohhnrdgt ohhmpdhgihhthhhusgdrtghomhenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmh epmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmtheslhhofigvnhhtrhhophihrdhnvght X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id 52ECBE00A8; Wed, 18 Mar 2020 16:26:06 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.1.7-991-g5a577d3-fmstable-20200305v3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <0d9dd286-ebae-4291-8910-20d8ccbc7379@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <962522AC-8132-4EAA-9F43-609E5392E608@nbcuni.com> References: <962522AC-8132-4EAA-9F43-609E5392E608@nbcuni.com> Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 07:25:48 +1100 From: "Martin Thomson" To: dispatch@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] Virtual IETF107 - SRT draft is available X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 20:26:10 -0000 As this is an entirely new transport protocol, I don't see this as being= within the MOPS charter. This would be something at the scale of a wor= king group, likely in the transport area, if the IETF took it on. But s= everal questions come from this: * is the intent here to transfer change control to the IETF? * why would anyone choose to do this as opposed to something like QUIC? = QUIC provides certain security properties, whereas I have very little c= onfidence in the claimed security properties of this protocol. On Thu, Mar 19, 2020, at 03:23, Deen, Glenn (NBCUniversal) wrote: > Hi Ben, >=20 > I think it still best fits in MOPS, at least initially. SRT is a=20 > popular protocol in use operationally amongst media companies and doin= g=20 > an ingest initially in via MOPS will help get it the visibility and=20= > discussion from the media operations viewpoint. =20 >=20 > While MOPS won't meet until the virtual meetup being planned for=20 > April, all that really means is that there won't be an opportunity to=20= > present on the draft to a WG until then - but the interims are only a=20= > couple weeks out from now, so it's not a massive delay. =20 >=20 > Between now and the interim MOPS meeting the draft can still be=20 > discussed and reviewed on the MOPS list. >=20 > My worry is that skipping having it run through MOPS to gain the input= =20 > there would be skipping an important set of eyes that can helpfully=20= > contribute to commenting on the draft. >=20 > -glenn >=20 >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 3/18/20, 9:09 AM, "dispatch on behalf of Ben Campbell"=20 > wrote: >=20 > Hi All, > =20 > The chairs would like to see comments about what an appropriate=20= > discussion venue for this draft would be. It seems like it sits on the= =20 > border between TSV and ART. > =20 > Thanks! > =20 > Ben. > =20 > > On Mar 18, 2020, at 1:37 AM, =EA=B9=80=EC=A4=80=EC=9B=85=EB=8B=98= (JOONWOONG.KIM)=20 > wrote: > >=20 > > Hi all > >=20 > > I would like to draw you attention to SRT draft which is added i= n=20 > the last minute to the agenda of DISPATCH session, coming week (if tim= e=20 > is allowed after existing agenda items are handled): > >=20 > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-sharabayko-mops-srt/ > >=20 > > SRT (Secure Reliable Transport) protocol is a user level protoco= l=20 > optimized for low-latency live video contribution based on UDT and UDP= ,=20 > over different network conditions. While it has been rather=20 > successfully deployed by some industries, we would like to make it an=20= > Internet standard and further collaborate in IETF communities for=20 > enhancements, which would be beneficial to Internet community and=20 > Industries. > >=20 > > The draft was originally submitted for MOPS WG of IETF 107 for=20= > discussions, but now there will not be any MOPS meeting until late=20 > April. Therefore we would like to discuss this draft in DISPATCH, whic= h=20 > might be more appropriate venue to find out where and how a new=20 > protocol draft can be handled. I appreciate DISPATCH leaderships and=20= > members, for kind consideration. > >=20 > > If you need more clarification about SRT protocol or our=20 > intention, please let me know. Any comments or discussions before the=20= > meeting would be helpful as well. In the meantime, you can find more=20= > information about SRT here (white papers, simple video clips, and open= =20 > source code): > > https://www.srtalliance.org/ > > http://www3.haivision.com/srt-open-source-wp > > https://github.com/Haivision/srt > >=20 > > Thanks so much for reading and your help in advance. > >=20 > > thanks > > Joonwoong > > =3D=3D > > Joonwoong Kim | Global Standardization | SK Telecom=20 > mailto:joonwoong.kim@sk.com > >=20 > >=20 > > _______________________________________________ > > dispatch mailing list > > dispatch@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch > =20 > =20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > dispatch mailing list > dispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch > From nobody Wed Mar 18 14:26:34 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D1AF3A1C86 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 2020 14:26:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nbcuni.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id di1ATj6So8U2 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 2020 14:26:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-00176a04.pphosted.com (mx0a-00176a04.pphosted.com [67.231.149.53]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CF8EB3A1C88 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 2020 14:26:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0048276.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0048276.ppops.net-00176a04. 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h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=oa6x0zBGR5E6oJPGI9mEyifFTh3ViAjJ/STV2Fu+SJs=; b=n8UIYpPM5deuN8/ptCKlGQoHnTtRihh50HruzynD86fwMdSAYXUgKVX4jp+SKQ5Y/m ro3jIfOh4X69wwSNa6qyJ0ry/6DygbCJgSBWbntd0ZpRTw9BhibZp/dcWVg4vYCGpn82 GrNTPr74brpLiH4hKnnPW07IYyk5gonvr1NY3AM0U1Tmhz4E6fzKxE1/cAnuHA1Ebwoa gT+5eZHvcTwV6lxb+enelL5CafRMWM+qNmGMP9FLduaZXEmfVv+ZSthUJvPGKMu0etOI x+Hf+eygxy9UP1bguXHZC2vUG/h6nerPAeSzvTWc+q7hThwojtGuh/le4ATSzw3xj2d7 neqg== X-Gm-Message-State: ANhLgQ0bJTz3YmcXhZpwr/3MRLN0Twq4EJEVKga71AuTHhXnAqtwTh2r 4ADu4Ddld3NQ3CAsQ+C0xotBdGUSaajVZdjwsp7JZ4xS X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADFU+vv1UY5OaAzd/AayNh13a9/YFKU5P3lPp3nhQjEesUWaRh7Jxks7TOgvxkDMAvKCNl46+eBnDP6FqwnI0B8Dbz0= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:804b:: with SMTP id p11mr323323ljg.50.1584576012391; Wed, 18 Mar 2020 17:00:12 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 18:59:46 -0500 Message-ID: To: "Deen, Glenn (NBCUniversal)" Cc: Martin Thomson , "dispatch@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000056995e05a129dab8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] Virtual IETF107 - SRT draft is available X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 00:00:17 -0000 --00000000000056995e05a129dab8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have opinions about the final destination, but let's sit on them for now. In the meantime, On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 4:26 PM Deen, Glenn (NBCUniversal) < Glenn.Deen@nbcuni.com> wrote: > Hi Martin > > [GD] First, let me say I'm not a contributor to the SRT draft and don't > know what its authors plans are but my organization does use it in > production and I was involved in getting MOPS created as a WG to help wit= h > just this sort of situation where something from the media operations wor= ld > touches the IETF world. > > [GD] I'm still neutral on the if the IETF should take up work on SRT - > hence why I want to see the draft get a good discussion and consideration > so we can all be better informed when thinking if this is something the > IETF should take up. > > =EF=BB=BFOn 3/18/20, 1:26 PM, "dispatch on behalf of Martin Thomson" < > dispatch-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of mt@lowentropy.net> wrote: > > As this is an entirely new transport protocol, I don't see this as > being within the MOPS charter. This would be something at the scale of a > working group, likely in the transport area, if the IETF took it on. > > > [GD]. If the IETF took up this work, I agree it would be big enough to bi= t > in a new WG, but there is a lot to learn and discuss before that point. = I > propose MOPS works as an good place to do an first presentation and > discussion because SRT is a media operations focused protocol. SRT is us= ed > by professional media operations such as production studios, TV studios, > and cable operators to move content fast and reliably between acquisition > to studio and in distribution from studio to distributors over the > Internet. > > [GD] Doing the initial discussion in MOPS lets the proposal receive > comments from people who are both IETF knowledge and media operations > knowledgeable - with the hope that a draft like this that is coming in > from the media technology world can get help to develop into an IETF styl= e > draft before facing the more intense discussion they might be jumping int= o > if it first goes directly to the transport area > > [GD] I'm not proposing MOPS as a final destination, but more of a next > step on the journey. Acting as a bridge with the media operations world = is > a big part of the charter of MOPS. The MOPS charter talks about it > coordinating with other areas and groups at the IETF and sending things > over when appropriate for those other groups to look at. I think SRT is a > great example of such a situation. > MOPS as an initial point of contact does make sense to me, and is consistent with the various efforts that IESGs and IABs have made over at least a couple of decades to drag operational problems into the IETF so we could find out if we can help. My first question would be "does this protocol work the way you need it to work, and you just want a stable specification, or is there still protocol engineering work to do?". The answer to that question would tell me a lot, and I don't know that talking about this in Dispatch would be as helpful. I haven't been around Dispatch a lot in recent years, but is there still an undercurrent of "we know what we want to do, and need to know where to do it" in Dispatch? IMO, of course. Best, Spencer > On 3/18/20, 1:26 PM, "dispatch on behalf of Martin Thomson" < > dispatch-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of mt@lowentropy.net> wrote: > > But several questions come from this: > > * is the intent here to transfer change control to the IETF? > > * why would anyone choose to do this as opposed to something like > QUIC? QUIC provides certain security properties, whereas I have very > little confidence in the claimed security properties of this protocol. > > [GD] SRT has reliable delivery features that are needed for media > distribution and are not part of QUIC and wouldn't be likely to be added = to > QUIC. So QUIC isn't a replacement for SRT, though it is entirely possibl= e > that at some point SRT may be run over QUIC. > > [GD] SRT has features that meet media specific needs. For example > consider the need to reliably deliver a live sporting event quickly from > the stadium to the distribution carriers such as your local TV station or > cable company or streaming operator. It's used when the media stream MUST > arrive at the studio and can't tolerate retrains. It's not only for live > events but such events are a great use-case for the Reliable aspects of S= RT. > > > -glenn > > > > _______________________________________________ > dispatch mailing list > dispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch > --00000000000056995e05a129dab8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have opinions about the final destinati= on, but let's sit on them for now. In the meantime,=C2=A0

On Wed, Mar 18= , 2020 at 4:26 PM Deen, Glenn (NBCUniversal) <Glenn.Deen@nbcuni.com> wrote:
Hi Martin

[GD] First, let me say I'm not a contributor to the SRT draft and don&#= 39;t know what its authors plans are but my organization does use it in pro= duction and I was involved in getting MOPS created as a WG to help with jus= t this sort of situation where something from the media operations world to= uches the IETF world.

[GD] I'm still neutral on the if the IETF should take up work on SRT - = hence why I want to see the draft get a good discussion and consideration s= o we can all be better informed when thinking if this is something the IETF= should take up.=C2=A0 =C2=A0

=EF=BB=BFOn 3/18/20, 1:26 PM, "dispatch on behalf of Martin Thomson&qu= ot; <disp= atch-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of mt@lowentropy.net> wrote:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 As this is an entirely new transport protocol, I don't se= e this as being within the MOPS charter.=C2=A0 This would be something at t= he scale of a working group, likely in the transport area, if the IETF took= it on.


[GD]. If the IETF took up this work, I agree it would be big enough to bit = in a new WG, but there is a lot to learn and discuss before that point.=C2= =A0 =C2=A0I propose MOPS works as an good place to do an first presentation= and discussion because SRT is a media operations focused protocol.=C2=A0 S= RT is used by professional media operations such as production studios, TV = studios, and cable operators to move content fast and reliably between acqu= isition to studio and in distribution from studio to distributors over the = Internet.=C2=A0 =C2=A0

[GD] Doing the initial discussion in MOPS lets the proposal receive comment= s from people who are both IETF knowledge and media operations knowledgeabl= e=C2=A0 - with the hope that a draft like this that is coming in from the m= edia technology world can get help to develop into an IETF style draft befo= re facing the more intense discussion they might be jumping into if it firs= t goes directly to the transport area=C2=A0

[GD]=C2=A0 I'm not proposing MOPS as a final destination, but more of a= next step on the journey.=C2=A0 Acting as a bridge with the media operatio= ns world is a big part of the charter of MOPS. The MOPS charter talks about= it coordinating with other areas and groups at the IETF and sending things= over when appropriate for those other groups to look at. I think SRT is a = great example of such a situation.

MOPS= as an initial point of contact does make sense to me, and is consistent wi= th the various efforts that IESGs and IABs have made over at least a couple= of decades to drag operational problems into the IETF so we could find out= if we can help.=C2=A0

My first question would be = "does this protocol work the way you need it to work, and you just wan= t a stable specification, or is there still protocol engineering work to do= ?". The answer to that question would tell me a lot, and I don't k= now that talking about this in Dispatch would be as helpful. I haven't = been around Dispatch a lot in recent years, but is there still an undercurr= ent of "we know what we want to do, and need to know where to do it&qu= ot; in Dispatch?

IMO, of course.

Best,

Spencer
=C2=A0
On 3/18/20, 1:26 PM, "disp= atch on behalf of Martin Thomson" <dispatch-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of <= a href=3D"mailto:mt@lowentropy.net" target=3D"_blank">mt@lowentropy.net= > wrote:

But several questions come from this:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 * is the intent here to transfer change control to the IETF?<= br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 * why would anyone choose to do this as opposed to something = like QUIC?=C2=A0 QUIC provides certain security properties, whereas I have = very little confidence in the claimed security properties of this protocol.=

[GD] SRT has reliable delivery features that are needed for media distribut= ion and are not part of QUIC and wouldn't be likely to be added to QUIC= .=C2=A0 So QUIC isn't a replacement for SRT, though it is entirely poss= ible that at some point SRT may be run over QUIC.

[GD] SRT has features that meet media specific needs.=C2=A0 For example con= sider the need to reliably deliver a live sporting event quickly from the s= tadium to the distribution carriers such as your local TV station or cable = company or streaming operator. It's used when the media stream MUST arr= ive at the studio and can't tolerate retrains.=C2=A0 It's not only = for live events but such events are a great use-case for the Reliable aspec= ts of SRT.


-glenn



_______________________________________________
dispatch mailing list
dispatch@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
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QUIC provides certain security properties, whereas I have very = little confidence in the claimed security properties of this protocol. >=20 > [GD] SRT has reliable delivery features that are needed for media = distribution and are not part of QUIC and wouldn't be likely to be added = to QUIC. So QUIC isn't a replacement for SRT, though it is entirely = possible that at some point SRT may be run over QUIC. >=20 > [GD] SRT has features that meet media specific needs. For example = consider the need to reliably deliver a live sporting event quickly from = the stadium to the distribution carriers such as your local TV station = or cable company or streaming operator. It's used when the media stream = MUST arrive at the studio and can't tolerate retrains. It's not only = for live events but such events are a great use-case for the Reliable = aspects of SRT. QUIC has reliable delivery of streams by default, and the WG has just = adopted for = unreliable delivery. Is there any feature of SRT that can't be built on = top of those primitives? I'd suggest that doing so is a much quicker (no pun intended) path to = standardisation, in that the design work on QUIC's encryption and = transport features is getting very close to done. SRT would need to be = evaluated against a number of design criteria -- including not only = security and privacy, but also network fairness -- to start, and it'd = still need to go through the consensus process. Cheers, -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Wed Mar 18 18:42:55 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CF703A0D21 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 2020 18:42:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qlEKB2SE7shb for ; Wed, 18 Mar 2020 18:42:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io1-xd2a.google.com (mail-io1-xd2a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 178793A0D1E for ; Wed, 18 Mar 2020 18:42:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd2a.google.com with SMTP id v3so576071iot.11 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 2020 18:42:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=IGTM1O+IIZFpbqibBmRK27x9QLVp8a4kMWP1ouhB6ts=; b=E0KBYwHC5tuc8Su/EWUKbFuUYFAJB9YDk8Q6CAbKX46vD3HIkDarIpU4VWpQS9lTIX hUXr0jnAu5A5tylTDWRHlyFy2A7/YlCsijLwYQ869jjM+Ts0ix6laLGlmvyaVg0h25ui XUS/RYDeptRXQAkSJHQ2AA3oved6UBW4WyZbkYOnPrjgXuv0QEW1Pzo0ScPQnSYmhE6Y ICutN4pYFtSs0jTmTMlr70zuVV8tNlJ++To0cU3QS6GNTe6QgixRciz8zKHnZzSU/xKO +qXnHGBUYy1+Bz8Q+vgv32szGXI42eoaIs06fWFNRFb0u3orwMkYpLo7tsF1POizvu7s 0FBA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=IGTM1O+IIZFpbqibBmRK27x9QLVp8a4kMWP1ouhB6ts=; b=PqJv8Dnn8cEX13l8wRZ2uxxMutVbv5pLaMkU3L4Lh/O6w9U2VIx5PGdUpqhEw8b+VK IrQbAivDpdf+vHzBB5Jac2PEgDZ5pcyQVBHhDoxDnUlgYEUt7wpJTagqxn9Bt2El6t97 WHJU2N73Zg+ojyARvJiC/KPAMzmLj8IjePTR2GVJ1qVpg72DOxgOYqxl8pjHFhZghOYN BH2E0yzOVx8GKO8ZYqQqWc1Chwch+su4xJ5YfaAcPs4RLcLL9zUgUXT02o6EQv+78kiZ g5HS1pl5zo9iftgSdO/NTgn7gl2utM9XyjeeHiMOljKnsaz7jLjvpJgzyKXTcVUZHNjS DIJw== X-Gm-Message-State: ANhLgQ0DckX92cgYlaMiczgtDnkVFwFGVaI1MwWoG8UjPX38UxFmhgaC 0kFW790ABJJqs0NGB+VdalO/mGCmdINGSfsSSuw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADFU+vsEaE8NkHBXPLNe4A39MuEHXp8VHensksJC5CwQWLpyMFkW6m00fL2Amv4M+pHV33VtLngusYuJ5UVP4FbJjjk= X-Received: by 2002:a02:94cb:: with SMTP id x69mr929921jah.19.1584582170072; Wed, 18 Mar 2020 18:42:50 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Alexandre GOUAILLARD Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 08:42:39 +0700 Message-ID: To: Mark Nottingham Cc: "Deen, Glenn (NBCUniversal)" , "dispatch@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005d605705a12b499d" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] Virtual IETF107 - SRT draft is available X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 01:42:53 -0000 --0000000000005d605705a12b499d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" In any aspects, SRT seems to address the same need that (old) SRTP has been trying to achieve, and more recent media transport protocols are trying to achieve as well (rtcweb, quic datagrams). Perhaps having the folks over from AVTCORE could help bring in the right expertise? Maybe jonathan Lennox? With Mark and Ekr in the room, there is enough expertise already to cover QUIC and SRTP/rtcweb. On Thu, Mar 19, 2020 at 7:22 AM Mark Nottingham wrote: > On 19 Mar 2020, at 8:26 am, Deen, Glenn (NBCUniversal) < > Glenn.Deen@nbcuni.com> wrote: > > > > * why would anyone choose to do this as opposed to something like > QUIC? QUIC provides certain security properties, whereas I have very > little confidence in the claimed security properties of this protocol. > > > > [GD] SRT has reliable delivery features that are needed for media > distribution and are not part of QUIC and wouldn't be likely to be added to > QUIC. So QUIC isn't a replacement for SRT, though it is entirely possible > that at some point SRT may be run over QUIC. > > > > [GD] SRT has features that meet media specific needs. For example > consider the need to reliably deliver a live sporting event quickly from > the stadium to the distribution carriers such as your local TV station or > cable company or streaming operator. It's used when the media stream MUST > arrive at the studio and can't tolerate retrains. It's not only for live > events but such events are a great use-case for the Reliable aspects of SRT. > > QUIC has reliable delivery of streams by default, and the WG has just > adopted for > unreliable delivery. Is there any feature of SRT that can't be built on top > of those primitives? > > I'd suggest that doing so is a much quicker (no pun intended) path to > standardisation, in that the design work on QUIC's encryption and transport > features is getting very close to done. SRT would need to be evaluated > against a number of design criteria -- including not only security and > privacy, but also network fairness -- to start, and it'd still need to go > through the consensus process. > > Cheers, > > -- > Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ > > _______________________________________________ > dispatch mailing list > dispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch > -- Alex. Gouaillard, PhD, PhD, MBA ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ President - CoSMo Software Consulting, Singapore ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ sg.linkedin.com/agouaillard - --0000000000005d605705a12b499d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In any aspects, SRT seems to address the same need that (o= ld) SRTP has been trying to achieve, and more recent media transport protoc= ols are trying to achieve as well (rtcweb, quic datagrams). Perhaps having = the folks over from AVTCORE could help bring in the right expertise? Maybe = jonathan Lennox? With Mark and Ekr in the room, there is enough expertise a= lready to cover QUIC and SRTP/rtcweb.

<= div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thu, Mar 19, 2020 at 7:22 AM Mark N= ottingham <mnot@mnot.net> wrote:=
On 19 Mar 2020, at 8:26 am, Deen, Glenn (NBCUniv= ersal) <Glenn= .Deen@nbcuni.com> wrote:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 * why would anyone choose to do this as opposed to someth= ing like QUIC?=C2=A0 QUIC provides certain security properties, whereas I h= ave very little confidence in the claimed security properties of this proto= col.
>
> [GD] SRT has reliable delivery features that are needed for media dist= ribution and are not part of QUIC and wouldn't be likely to be added to= QUIC.=C2=A0 So QUIC isn't a replacement for SRT, though it is entirely= possible that at some point SRT may be run over QUIC.
>
> [GD] SRT has features that meet media specific needs.=C2=A0 For exampl= e consider the need to reliably deliver a live sporting event quickly from = the stadium to the distribution carriers such as your local TV station or c= able company or streaming operator. It's used when the media stream MUS= T arrive at the studio and can't tolerate retrains.=C2=A0 It's not = only for live events but such events are a great use-case for the Reliable = aspects of SRT.

QUIC has reliable delivery of streams by default, and the WG has just adopt= ed <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf= -quic-datagram-00> for unreliable delivery. Is there any feature of = SRT that can't be built on top of those primitives?

I'd suggest that doing so is a much quicker (no pun intended) path to s= tandardisation, in that the design work on QUIC's encryption and transp= ort features is getting very close to done. SRT would need to be evaluated = against a number of design criteria -- including not only security and priv= acy, but also network fairness -- to start, and it'd still need to go t= hrough the consensus process.

Cheers,

--
Mark Nottingham=C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.mnot.net/

_______________________________________________
dispatch mailing list
dispatch@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch


--
Alex. Gouaillard, PhD, PhD, MBA
-------------= -----------------------------------------------------------------------
President - CoSMo Software Consulting, Singapore
---------= ---------------------------------------------------------------------------=

--0000000000005d605705a12b499d-- From nobody Wed Mar 18 19:12:40 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47F323A0DD4 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 2020 19:12:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GV2kVmLzm8v9 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 2020 19:12:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lj1-x235.google.com (mail-lj1-x235.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0CE3A3A0D2C for ; Wed, 18 Mar 2020 19:12:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x235.google.com with SMTP id d23so612797ljg.13 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 2020 19:12:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=+pOUEI4xVof+Fc14L8q+SJ6fS91EkP9UJYfwrrnCI+A=; b=k7V2/3/Xca2o/OsejpUbqqkOkLJF3wcPeBPbfp8uRCFzKuzmDE0GJc4m/qjDrAkTCT mv4cCjXjeNM3g/hGSjbz5V4zZq296VVbeRJKvlO2oLhN2QR4DsyM2sUo74e8uKxsKkcx Fnvv9Utqr1EyUIUOBrWscOySrkmstYqn+RWzik/PIwkU1qePHR+XigEwnSL9+LQs/gFR 1Y7NtL5X7t4Z8DV9MRXzvUvQ6CgsxemI1bAlYYMlk626IBafEOzjGdkrNfYbKx9QGvB2 Bdo/of1qTQbEFlDZsXUAIeDsE1VS+99ub/JwMOxJukeM2YQLfjaN3XqvaUUEaYaOgWGl inTw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=+pOUEI4xVof+Fc14L8q+SJ6fS91EkP9UJYfwrrnCI+A=; b=g/MsenmQ7iVwvy5RzQ65ZEckgct+rgIx2WQn492hmkAvJcy1mZ7GPeZZCPmyrD2Clq M2gVzMgUfUKcSBjNNgZr3Dm8pj0Bm0/IGtCWW4DQ9pqhF4BLWoJcXrPDixUy8gOKc3fA rhO9HZ1dj7kzY5ajBhyjMh7c1xYfc2De+oo7/fVqLTJtri2LvhViKg0sRCuahP4T6g2V QwKiajApJ+ETQQXFuTYTmJSde5XMYKnOumPeuI2XcpTxfn7jQnSqvJK79NRe0Ns+FtbA hZzedm8rbtRjLwxZJ3n6UlEx5Qjpa/aXPijNB3CQpl5VlqFmfyNRg7vllWxp2s+K4J2B QHRQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ANhLgQ1KDT4o1fF6EWMV0uh5jh7t3C79og0PkjsCoHMctsxE9dmKhM2M PCgqJ6dVwX90/71UQ+peLkTF4bC7yITVA2wQLnxbAg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADFU+vseWVrJSjpfweCOD/0xcXTyO4hHAUv2d2hJcReHWX9tQucj0yxctPbq4cjkDhReIxQksmGzV9rtfbVSDYO9syE= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:869a:: with SMTP id l26mr568733lji.286.1584583954117; Wed, 18 Mar 2020 19:12:34 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Eric Rescorla Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 19:11:58 -0700 Message-ID: To: Mark Nottingham Cc: "Deen, Glenn (NBCUniversal)" , "dispatch@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b3cceb05a12bb3cd" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] Virtual IETF107 - SRT draft is available X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 02:12:39 -0000 --000000000000b3cceb05a12bb3cd Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I share Mark and MT's questions. I would encourage the proponents to focus their presentation on what functionality SRT provides that QUIC and/or SRTP does not (and that cannot be easily grafted on). That seems like the most productive conversation to have. -Ekr On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 5:22 PM Mark Nottingham wrote: > On 19 Mar 2020, at 8:26 am, Deen, Glenn (NBCUniversal) < > Glenn.Deen@nbcuni.com> wrote: > > > > * why would anyone choose to do this as opposed to something like > QUIC? QUIC provides certain security properties, whereas I have very > little confidence in the claimed security properties of this protocol. > > > > [GD] SRT has reliable delivery features that are needed for media > distribution and are not part of QUIC and wouldn't be likely to be added to > QUIC. So QUIC isn't a replacement for SRT, though it is entirely possible > that at some point SRT may be run over QUIC. > > > > [GD] SRT has features that meet media specific needs. For example > consider the need to reliably deliver a live sporting event quickly from > the stadium to the distribution carriers such as your local TV station or > cable company or streaming operator. It's used when the media stream MUST > arrive at the studio and can't tolerate retrains. It's not only for live > events but such events are a great use-case for the Reliable aspects of SRT. > > QUIC has reliable delivery of streams by default, and the WG has just > adopted for > unreliable delivery. Is there any feature of SRT that can't be built on top > of those primitives? > > I'd suggest that doing so is a much quicker (no pun intended) path to > standardisation, in that the design work on QUIC's encryption and transport > features is getting very close to done. SRT would need to be evaluated > against a number of design criteria -- including not only security and > privacy, but also network fairness -- to start, and it'd still need to go > through the consensus process. > > Cheers, > > -- > Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ > > _______________________________________________ > dispatch mailing list > dispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch > --000000000000b3cceb05a12bb3cd Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I share Mark and MT's questions.

I would encourage the proponents to focus their presentation on wh= at functionality SRT provides that QUIC and/or SRTP does not (and that cann= ot be easily grafted on). That seems like the most productive conversation = to have.

-Ekr


On Wed, Mar = 18, 2020 at 5:22 PM Mark Nottingham <mn= ot@mnot.net> wrote:
On 19 Mar 2020, at 8:26 am, Deen, Glenn (NBCUniversal) <Glenn.Deen@nbcuni.com= > wrote:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 * why would anyone choose to do this as opposed to someth= ing like QUIC?=C2=A0 QUIC provides certain security properties, whereas I h= ave very little confidence in the claimed security properties of this proto= col.
>
> [GD] SRT has reliable delivery features that are needed for media dist= ribution and are not part of QUIC and wouldn't be likely to be added to= QUIC.=C2=A0 So QUIC isn't a replacement for SRT, though it is entirely= possible that at some point SRT may be run over QUIC.
>
> [GD] SRT has features that meet media specific needs.=C2=A0 For exampl= e consider the need to reliably deliver a live sporting event quickly from = the stadium to the distribution carriers such as your local TV station or c= able company or streaming operator. It's used when the media stream MUS= T arrive at the studio and can't tolerate retrains.=C2=A0 It's not = only for live events but such events are a great use-case for the Reliable = aspects of SRT.

QUIC has reliable delivery of streams by default, and the WG has just adopt= ed <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf= -quic-datagram-00> for unreliable delivery. Is there any feature of = SRT that can't be built on top of those primitives?

I'd suggest that doing so is a much quicker (no pun intended) path to s= tandardisation, in that the design work on QUIC's encryption and transp= ort features is getting very close to done. SRT would need to be evaluated = against a number of design criteria -- including not only security and priv= acy, but also network fairness -- to start, and it'd still need to go t= hrough the consensus process.

Cheers,

--
Mark Nottingham=C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.mnot.net/

_______________________________________________
dispatch mailing list
dispatch@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
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DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 06:39:13 -0000 On 19 Mar 2020, at 5:30 pm, =EA=B9=80=EC=A4=80=EC=9B=85=EB=8B=98(JOONWOONG= .KIM) wrote: >=20 > we would like to understand if the current SRT protocol could be = standardized or documented within IETF That's not how things typically work. When new works comes to the IETF, = change control for the specification is explicitly given to this = community. We then come to consensus about what gets standardised, and = as a result, the output may look very little like the input. Indeed, this is exactly what happened to QUIC, and to SPDY before it. If you'd like the *current* SRT protocol to be documented, I'd suggest = publishing it on your Github repository, or perhaps a journal. The RFC = Editor also has an "independent" stream for documents, but there's a = filter in place for work that conflicts with the IETF's, so that may not = be workable here (you'd have to try). If, on the other hand, you'd like to bring a proposal or a use case to a = community with deep knowledge of networking and security, and have the = benefit of broad review and input as well as potential buy-in from a = much broader group of implementers, the IETF is a good place to do that. = You just can't expect what comes out to look like what you bring to the = table; it does occasionally happen, but you can't count on it. 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charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: fd774030-49b8-4565-dea4-08d7cbd2e866 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 19 Mar 2020 06:58:19.8141 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5afa09fd-c4be-434d-830d-f4765c449035 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: YA1V1X1woyTN+kY8+96Tu6VM2tmFZOrzSjlfOxJTfwHxlCeIz5p+2GkTelBSYvzBmwdjS3VCNC1cX77cHDr9ew== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SL2P216MB0762 X-OriginatorOrg: sktelecom.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] Virtual IETF107 - SRT draft is available X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 06:58:29 -0000 VGhhbmtzIGEgbG90IGZvciB0aGUgY29tbWVudCwgTWFyay4gSSB0aGluayB0aGlzIGtpbmQgb2Yg YWR2aWNlIGlzIHZlcnkgbXVjaCBoZWxwZnVsIGZvciB1cy4gSSBjYW4gdW5kZXJzdGFuZCBvciBp bWFnaW5lIHRoYXQgaXQgaXMgYSBjb2xsYWJvcmF0aXZlIHdvcmsgaW4gcHJpbmNpcGxlLCBhbmQg dGh1cyB0aGUgb3V0Y29tZSBjb3VsZCBiZSBxdWl0ZSBkaWZmZXJlbnQgZnJvbSB0aGUgb3JpZ2lu YWwgcHJvcG9zYWwuIEkgYWdyZWUgd2l0aCB5b3Ugb24gdGhlIG1haW4gcHVycG9zZSBhbmQgbWVy aXQgb2YgdGhlIHByb2Nlc3MuIFRoZSBkb2N1bWVudGluZyB0aGUgY3VycmVudCBTUlQgaXMganVz dCBvbmUgb2YgcG9zc2liaWxpdGllcyAod2hpY2ggbWF5IGxlYWQgdG8gYSB0cmlhbCBvZiBpbmRl cGVuZGVudCBpbmZvcm1hdGlvbmFsIFJGQykuDQoNCnRoYW5rcw0Kam9vbndvb25nDQoNCi0tLS0t T3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZS0tLS0tDQpGcm9tOiBNYXJrIE5vdHRpbmdoYW0gPG1ub3RAbW5vdC5u ZXQ+IA0KU2VudDogVGh1cnNkYXksIE1hcmNoIDE5LCAyMDIwIDM6MzkgUE0NClRvOiDquYDspIDs m4Xri5goSk9PTldPT05HLktJTSkv6riw7Iig7ZGc7KSA7ZmU7YyAIDxqb29ud29vbmcua2ltQHNr dGVsZWNvbS5jb20+DQpDYzogTWFydGluIFRob21zb24gPG10QGxvd2VudHJvcHkubmV0PjsgZGlz cGF0Y2hAaWV0Zi5vcmcNClN1YmplY3Q6IFJlOiBbZGlzcGF0Y2hdIFZpcnR1YWwgSUVURjEwNyAt IFNSVCBkcmFmdCBpcyBhdmFpbGFibGUNCg0KT24gMTkgTWFyIDIwMjAsIGF0IDU6MzAgcG0sIOq5 gOykgOybheuLmChKT09OV09PTkcuS0lNKSA8am9vbndvb25nLmtpbUBzay5jb20+IHdyb3RlOg0K PiANCj4gd2Ugd291bGQgbGlrZSB0byB1bmRlcnN0YW5kIGlmIHRoZSBjdXJyZW50IFNSVCBwcm90 b2NvbCBjb3VsZCBiZSBzdGFuZGFyZGl6ZWQgb3IgZG9jdW1lbnRlZCB3aXRoaW4gSUVURg0KDQpU aGF0J3Mgbm90IGhvdyB0aGluZ3MgdHlwaWNhbGx5IHdvcmsuIFdoZW4gbmV3IHdvcmtzIGNvbWVz IHRvIHRoZSBJRVRGLCBjaGFuZ2UgY29udHJvbCBmb3IgdGhlIHNwZWNpZmljYXRpb24gaXMgZXhw bGljaXRseSBnaXZlbiB0byB0aGlzIGNvbW11bml0eS4gV2UgdGhlbiBjb21lIHRvIGNvbnNlbnN1 cyBhYm91dCB3aGF0IGdldHMgc3RhbmRhcmRpc2VkLCBhbmQgYXMgYSByZXN1bHQsIHRoZSBvdXRw dXQgbWF5IGxvb2sgdmVyeSBsaXR0bGUgbGlrZSB0aGUgaW5wdXQuDQoNCkluZGVlZCwgdGhpcyBp cyBleGFjdGx5IHdoYXQgaGFwcGVuZWQgdG8gUVVJQywgYW5kIHRvIFNQRFkgYmVmb3JlIGl0Lg0K DQpJZiB5b3UnZCBsaWtlIHRoZSAqY3VycmVudCogU1JUIHByb3RvY29sIHRvIGJlIGRvY3VtZW50 ZWQsIEknZCBzdWdnZXN0IHB1Ymxpc2hpbmcgaXQgb24geW91ciBHaXRodWIgcmVwb3NpdG9yeSwg b3IgcGVyaGFwcyBhIGpvdXJuYWwuIFRoZSBSRkMgRWRpdG9yIGFsc28gaGFzIGFuICJpbmRlcGVu ZGVudCIgc3RyZWFtIGZvciBkb2N1bWVudHMsIGJ1dCB0aGVyZSdzIGEgZmlsdGVyIGluIHBsYWNl IGZvciB3b3JrIHRoYXQgY29uZmxpY3RzIHdpdGggdGhlIElFVEYncywgc28gdGhhdCBtYXkgbm90 IGJlIHdvcmthYmxlIGhlcmUgKHlvdSdkIGhhdmUgdG8gdHJ5KS4NCg0KSWYsIG9uIHRoZSBvdGhl ciBoYW5kLCB5b3UnZCBsaWtlIHRvIGJyaW5nIGEgcHJvcG9zYWwgb3IgYSB1c2UgY2FzZSB0byBh IGNvbW11bml0eSB3aXRoIGRlZXAga25vd2xlZGdlIG9mIG5ldHdvcmtpbmcgYW5kIHNlY3VyaXR5 LCBhbmQgaGF2ZSB0aGUgYmVuZWZpdCBvZiBicm9hZCByZXZpZXcgYW5kIGlucHV0IGFzIHdlbGwg YXMgcG90ZW50aWFsIGJ1eS1pbiBmcm9tIGEgbXVjaCBicm9hZGVyIGdyb3VwIG9mIGltcGxlbWVu dGVycywgdGhlIElFVEYgaXMgYSBnb29kIHBsYWNlIHRvIGRvIHRoYXQuIFlvdSBqdXN0IGNhbid0 IGV4cGVjdCB3aGF0IGNvbWVzIG91dCB0byBsb29rIGxpa2Ugd2hhdCB5b3UgYnJpbmcgdG8gdGhl IHRhYmxlOyBpdCBkb2VzIG9jY2FzaW9uYWxseSBoYXBwZW4sIGJ1dCB5b3UgY2FuJ3QgY291bnQg b24gaXQuDQoNCkNoZWVycywNCg0KLS0NCk1hcmsgTm90dGluZ2hhbSAgIGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3Lm1u b3QubmV0Lw0KDQo= From nobody Thu Mar 19 06:19:58 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B65FE3A294D for ; 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Thu, 19 Mar 2020 06:19:52 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Bernard Aboba Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 06:19:42 -0700 Message-ID: To: DISPATCH list Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000342b1705a13506b3" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] Virtual IETF 107 - SRT draft is available X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 13:19:57 -0000 --000000000000342b1705a13506b3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Martin Thomson said: "why would anyone choose to do this as opposed to something like QUIC? QUIC provides certain security properties, whereas I have very little confidence in the claimed security properties of this protocol." [BA] I'm not clear whether the desire is to publish an existing protocol as an Informational RFC, or to cede change control and evolve SRT within the IETF. But assuming that the desire is to evolve it, one (of many) questions would be whether it is desired that Web applications be able to use SRTbis. Web applications cannot support SRT today, because there is no "UDP for the Web". If there was a desire for SRT to be supported on the Web, then one avenue would be for it to run over QUIC datagrams. But that would not provide support for "content protection", only encryption/integrity protection of packets in transit. --000000000000342b1705a13506b3 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Martin Thomson said:=C2=A0

"why wo= uld anyone choose to do this as opposed to something like QUIC?=C2=A0 QUIC = provides certain security properties, whereas I have very little confidence= in the claimed security properties of this protocol."

<= /div>
[BA] I'm not clear whether the desire is to publish an existi= ng protocol as an Informational RFC, or to cede change control and evolve S= RT within the IETF.=C2=A0 But assuming that the desire is to evolve it, one= (of many) questions would be whether it is desired that Web applications b= e able to use SRTbis.

Web applications cannot supp= ort SRT today, because there is no "UDP for the Web".=C2=A0
=

If there was a desire for SRT to be supported on the We= b, then one avenue would be for it to run over QUIC datagrams.
But that would not provide support for "content protectio= n", only encryption/integrity protection of packets in transit.
<= /div> --000000000000342b1705a13506b3-- From nobody Thu Mar 19 15:54:42 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 338C03A1196 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 2020 15:54:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.079 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.079 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_TEMPERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cXeb-GFi5MVS for ; Thu, 19 Mar 2020 15:54:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C29123A118C for ; Thu, 19 Mar 2020 15:54:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.127.239] (mta-70-120-123-175.stx.rr.com [70.120.123.175] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 02JMsPLe007724 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 19 Mar 2020 17:54:28 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1584658468; bh=iIomTRk7rEX0vk2lPqVDg7NuykZH+wF/x+Zau7CLeak=; h=From:Subject:Date:Cc:To; b=kHTEFicgpXVMRhnMqYaLykvVL0IzS1nIxllulZ9cc2Z0x+y/WrP0P/GGafn3NPNLH Apci3LJe/xR48Wr3+xoPUOgfcRYwGJFZp+bFJPihlyEg8Jas7un9zz5RgORsxcZZWk 16N6rZxLhF8FFb651KjzCJQwA9Ww+AxQeyr03x2Q= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host mta-70-120-123-175.stx.rr.com [70.120.123.175] (may be forged) claimed to be [192.168.127.239] From: Ben Campbell Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_F06A49F2-FB96-4E19-9A36-66364C665CCB"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.60.0.2.5\)) Message-Id: <82FA51DD-700A-4A7E-B943-61461E0B465C@nostrum.com> Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 17:54:10 -0500 Cc: Patrick McManus To: DISPATCH WG X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.60.0.2.5) Archived-At: Subject: [dispatch] Volunteers Needed X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 22:54:40 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_F06A49F2-FB96-4E19-9A36-66364C665CCB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi DISPATCH people, Monday=E2=80=99s virtual meeting will be a grand experiment. I=E2=80=99d = like to get volunteers for the following in advance, so we can minimize = meeting startup time: 2 note takes to capture decisions and action items. 1 Jabber Scribe to take questions to the queue for anyone who is unable = to use WebEx for voice. Thanks! Ben. --Apple-Mail=_F06A49F2-FB96-4E19-9A36-66364C665CCB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEExW9rpd7ez4DexOFOgFZKbJXz1A0FAl5z+BIACgkQgFZKbJXz 1A0ocBAAqV3c0d6VwK4Kg5KKG5FG8E8zs5+cQh8mSeOGH/W1dKaN6p494CPN4Fh7 b/DYxcSAAy+FgJ0k7a7Ls9/yEJW9d0hAIxiGLpSzTOVQ0aEWcuvcgw6mhDyvobGT ZRQqOrMaq3JRxvnkiniwbdnzJNq9jla8y35zgrN51tyJrUM90yLNAjqshlprKvKK 48RWIhntDfB5Qbn9OmFxNjeXLzs77QbEGeTJcxYHyBz6jVxhTMhItEJtszoPXXOI +GSF/UJbjJEKpR4K48dnZnBNKSS5ExRQjIsE26PCJUZBP+DHpYScas6LEPkloJkx dI0/Tul+U/dwTEknY/HnmX9ELh8c/C8gwH6AN6jzn4NeAOQfAFa0eSdaYUVA+YHE hk4Av3lKGp0in30HJuYKk5PDlZTPZJjhJVPjDrSvd8O9Jwoy/cKI4DdDUnhi1lcL bOBUD371VHgUOvOOWKVz2ldp2O3lAEJu5qjhqf7spdYzOndKVELHsZLJocqifSfL VANh+ffPRfU38U5v7Lsdrk1kdNu03E43OSljXG43dSWXm9HozzXxj7CXDgciCv2W WkzffV9I0RSjzoN90PJUtdwLaxvQl5uuL+9MCoZWYpzfNLJTPtQRhR8wMnznI0Cu wBKdxR0/EtYvkNmbpBbIppJGGzbw/Vux7w5xxbrFrm/WK6Au9Gk= =PhcV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_F06A49F2-FB96-4E19-9A36-66364C665CCB-- From nobody Thu Mar 19 16:06:44 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A98B3A11D2 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 2020 16:06:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.847 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.847 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id M0rJKEE23M81 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 2020 16:06:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm1-x329.google.com (mail-wm1-x329.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::329]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3A49C3A11CE for ; Thu, 19 Mar 2020 16:06:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm1-x329.google.com with SMTP id c187so4657241wme.1 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 2020 16:06:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=jTemcVN0P1jf4aytOX/C87or9wxQua2ceWFNbPsdnts=; b=ZG/6/nKFAcGu291f6zWuNErWAxbJdKUU6pWW+idBJ3+6UcWt7LKUZF9hH4BhVZiBOk /51kwDri2bp8+smHIX/bYxz+dhPZuV2O9Iei1stQXXCK+c1iZ32KI0+w4nK8uI6EcHdd PLAI1WvzrFfmz+1Aj0vSX3GoUoqPRwA6Dop2gh+eKfm2vhzqVZIlArwj8BaDa9b0BreK EQ08pLzj7R4amM7yq0VTmAGhrA7rQ35P5VFCZ142yOtHSDTCY0v1DLipqQwTH6y4/GWH NS+6iaoJfBg82+nynqohho7fQKBsTQfxwmZ62i7CC8h1dkhzYcOtBSimAHZv0FzK6mTB ptaQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=jTemcVN0P1jf4aytOX/C87or9wxQua2ceWFNbPsdnts=; b=Cw+8SncJpvmno7C+5JK1mJ+sbpCyJBeZ0rIq0LuGcPGA020niMb4GTvIBXG38oRCOQ WnKakYPfbJlitHog2/r+lL5DFPpBfuKAI7WvACuJrfvAb6TprOqqb4V91gFj9qXn9e+D oocu6ueGOS3KCFk375mbjIE1bcdXLKslDKgmHH/aJH9SF94jE4bSoZjdIw4bUiu9cpTH fFyVSgvsoewoApyPdgV+I7ZUsoZfVfXA2+GBnI3Cv+w7JQZ7eqeeREqHhB1OTmBQ+daj tHrRS8Dg6jRe/rQqYMH0kcDnJ9sYikz1/35ON/GxlA5xFsv3GU/p4XNiiY0GBMzQFFXv 0ZoQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ANhLgQ2uV4m2IbAJOVBSorzJPfg97tPIKvNmSUWWxXTgBGIAkg70xgXT bu7CWkmze7tGcX2USjkYC7BS8ncXYpFrs2bGIwQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADFU+vut3/C6zDZDJDGCeBW9/3DHx/vFcYv5HNYBLASQYLnYTGzgb4z2B+8BJdZI6BXKuw7+pYnUdd86yGjW6E7Hwp0= X-Received: by 2002:a1c:f213:: with SMTP id s19mr6270454wmc.116.1584659198696; Thu, 19 Mar 2020 16:06:38 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <82FA51DD-700A-4A7E-B943-61461E0B465C@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: <82FA51DD-700A-4A7E-B943-61461E0B465C@nostrum.com> From: E Sam Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 19:06:28 -0400 Message-ID: To: Ben Campbell Cc: DISPATCH WG , Patrick McManus Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a0de7405a13d3825" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] Volunteers Needed X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2020 23:06:43 -0000 --000000000000a0de7405a13d3825 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I can help. I can do note taking or Jabber, whatever you want. On Thu, Mar 19, 2020 at 6:55 PM Ben Campbell wrote: > Hi DISPATCH people, > > Monday=E2=80=99s virtual meeting will be a grand experiment. I=E2=80=99d = like to get > volunteers for the following in advance, so we can minimize meeting start= up > time: > > 2 note takes to capture decisions and action items. > > 1 Jabber Scribe to take questions to the queue for anyone who is unable t= o > use WebEx for voice. > > Thanks! > > Ben. > _______________________________________________ > dispatch mailing list > dispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch > --000000000000a0de7405a13d3825 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I can help. I can do note taking or Jabber, whatever= you want.=C2=A0

On Thu, Mar 19, 2020 at 6:55 PM Ben Campbell <= ;ben@nostrum.com> wrote:
Hi DISPATCH people,

Monday=E2=80=99s virtual meeting will be a grand experiment. I=E2=80=99d li= ke to get volunteers for the following in advance, so we can minimize meeti= ng startup time:

2 note takes to capture decisions and action items.

1 Jabber Scribe to take questions to the queue for anyone who is unable to = use WebEx for voice.

Thanks!

Ben.
_______________________________________________
dispatch mailing list
dispatch@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
--000000000000a0de7405a13d3825-- From nobody Fri Mar 20 05:16:09 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFD583A08E4 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 2020 05:16:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KcUBkYCMsh8w for ; Fri, 20 Mar 2020 05:16:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from haggis.mythic-beasts.com (haggis.mythic-beasts.com [IPv6:2a00:1098:0:86:1000:0:2:1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0590D3A07F9 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 2020 05:16:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [81.187.2.149] (port=43654 helo=[192.168.0.66]) by haggis.mythic-beasts.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92.3) (envelope-from ) id 1jFGZE-0005mL-87; Fri, 20 Mar 2020 12:16:00 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Colin Perkins In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 12:15:57 +0000 Cc: "Deen, Glenn (NBCUniversal)" , "dispatch@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: To: Mark Nottingham X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-BlackCat-Spam-Score: 4 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] Virtual IETF107 - SRT draft is available X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 12:16:07 -0000 > On 19 Mar 2020, at 00:22, Mark Nottingham wrote: > On 19 Mar 2020, at 8:26 am, Deen, Glenn (NBCUniversal) = wrote: >>=20 >> * why would anyone choose to do this as opposed to something like = QUIC? QUIC provides certain security properties, whereas I have very = little confidence in the claimed security properties of this protocol. >>=20 >> [GD] SRT has reliable delivery features that are needed for media = distribution and are not part of QUIC and wouldn't be likely to be added = to QUIC. So QUIC isn't a replacement for SRT, though it is entirely = possible that at some point SRT may be run over QUIC. >>=20 >> [GD] SRT has features that meet media specific needs. For example = consider the need to reliably deliver a live sporting event quickly from = the stadium to the distribution carriers such as your local TV station = or cable company or streaming operator. It's used when the media stream = MUST arrive at the studio and can't tolerate retrains. It's not only = for live events but such events are a great use-case for the Reliable = aspects of SRT. >=20 > QUIC has reliable delivery of streams by default, and the WG has just = adopted for = unreliable delivery. Is there any feature of SRT that can't be built on = top of those primitives? Or on top of Secure RTP and RTSP, which seem to occupy a very similar = space to SRT. --=20 Colin Perkins https://csperkins.org/ From nobody Fri Mar 20 10:18:11 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietf.org Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61E883A0D04; Fri, 20 Mar 2020 10:18:07 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Agenda To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.121.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <158472468738.13479.5258099310772567428@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 10:18:07 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [dispatch] Virtual IETF 107 Meeting WebEx Invitation: DISPATCH X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2020 17:18:08 -0000 DISPATCH Session at IETF 107 Monday, March 23, 2020 22:10-00:10 UTC Join meeting: Meeting number (access code): 645 404 982 Meeting password: GCmUnMnF326 IETF 107 Agenda: From nobody Sat Mar 21 07:12:32 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4867C3A1410 for ; Sat, 21 Mar 2020 07:12:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.848 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.848 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id V_aSFMbc9VUB for ; Sat, 21 Mar 2020 07:12:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr1-x429.google.com (mail-wr1-x429.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::429]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ED1B53A1414 for ; Sat, 21 Mar 2020 07:12:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr1-x429.google.com with SMTP id s1so10934114wrv.5 for ; Sat, 21 Mar 2020 07:12:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=Cg6AC6W8gjio5CKcNPKZ2CtgN6wuIifnEVG679VtE24=; b=HaiAtB9gGU7B0z0JzMZn4Nrb/MoXFerZoXagmCta5uIx65bjaxBkFvPYOOkyn6bayR JzgKOUtMhTBNH9f5mBR/uf4XygKNOjRi8nw5RGehhBWTua1fYgYinUkKOh2hbQ9W8cam v2x+hA7+tSywL3cCGibbdWDDo3jRD58p6jLEmhDncGYZyEvdM2LhkXESFoMZ6Ou7PSkD Q6yf/vKLCRKVy+UxH4cDUYx1b+K4xcjT8NL2RcngHEPpbzu/YlneAyuH6SwEpAHFEspK qYeUAXu7n+nB8OsjuFjWAQ6y0Gn+rF5tqy5O6JiNWxAwkCKmsLj8nEfC5JCAo21W4hwk 0yYw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=Cg6AC6W8gjio5CKcNPKZ2CtgN6wuIifnEVG679VtE24=; b=YKTA5SaiuNTl+SX8s9Zajx8wUwP440lRxnFjHQX6uMNwzAiRbDd0zOnSrtZumb3Pip /o/rPFicSNfOLdIHhYpToCOUwtcbZXBpEjqm4d+t2wTtasOiqVjoY6KoSPay6RhoQzE1 tFwNOEAi5rGZ/QWB6dvD5yO4ZrJw6jwCrAxh1CUy+CZrrHKHFzl66CvDnvSrCydfF6qK /abrPkzUx+pLtdC2LQZc3CqWMRB+2sQ1MtCWTecrCnSJpBc+YJvEEsRyPvdisepXQidE mZHSo59K9JgOguw1ncyE0kecd495hRiVtLc2C8NbOhCAjUD4MVrcdkeoZMwa1vnB97qw DHUQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ANhLgQ2m3eq6gpASvl5pddndTT+zptVG9+DT8ugP2/q+4fwYssbNDKgG 9mG1/+PBlkwuFvfmCQw8y+woSb7eRaHW1bn3WJSJhQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADFU+vsC+/R4PC6QCt/lZkDTvGnfXKQ1w2tbLlZO2Nd1MoZzqzG+7yrIpCyA+Z5soIQJHyZftM5FP1eg45+iSQ9Gqh8= X-Received: by 2002:adf:a2dd:: with SMTP id t29mr9845660wra.338.1584799932256; Sat, 21 Mar 2020 07:12:12 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: E Sam Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 10:12:01 -0400 Message-ID: To: DISPATCH WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000094a005a15dfd2f" Archived-At: Subject: [dispatch] Internet Draft for NNTP additions submitted X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 14:12:31 -0000 --0000000000000094a005a15dfd2f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For some strange reason I dont think my email went through. So here it is again. I know we=E2=80=99re all deep into IETF107 talk but when you have time chec= k it out. Hello all, I have made the first I-D for the NNTP additions. It has been submitted to the IETF datatracker. The file name is draft-sam-nntpupdates-00.txt Some notes: Since we have the errata to change, this draft is by no means represent all the changes we need to make. I reintregrated the dynamic feed proposed in 1999 because I still think it is a good idea for tempory adjustments to newsfeeds (for example: when a certain newsgroups is getting a spam wave etc.) Peers communicating feed info out of band (e.g: emails) is still recommended due to the variety of information needed and to avoid =E2=80=9Ccommand creep=E2=80=9D Maybe we can also work on USEFOR/USAGE in some way if it interestes the participants - however we want to be NNTP focused since it is a NNTP working group after all. I found some errors in some of the RFCs I referenced - I will be submitting an errata soon. Thanks --0000000000000094a005a15dfd2f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
For some strange reason I dont think my email went= =C2=A0through.=C2=A0
So here it is again.

I know we=E2=80=99re all deep into= IETF107 talk but when you have time check it out.
<= br>
Hello all,

I have made the first = I-D for the NNTP additions. It has been submitted to the IETF datatracker. = The file name is draft-sam-nntpupdates-00.txt


Some notes:
<= div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"color:rgb(49,49,49);word-spacing:1px">
Since we have the errata to change, this dr= aft is by no means represent all the changes we need to make.

I reintregra= ted=C2=A0the dynamic feed proposed in=C2=A01999 because I still think it is a good idea for tempor= y adjustments to newsfeeds (for example: when a certain newsgroups is getti= ng a spam wave etc.) Peers communicating feed info out of band (e.g: emails= ) is still recommended due to the variety of information needed and to avoi= d =E2=80=9Ccommand creep=E2=80=9D

Maybe we can also work on USEFOR/USAGE in some way if it interes= tes=C2=A0 the participants - however we want to be NNTP focused since it is= a NNTP working group after all.

I found some errors in some of the = RFCs I referenced - I will be submitting an errata soon.

Thanks
--0000000000000094a005a15dfd2f-- From nobody Sat Mar 21 13:32:18 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B56903A095F for ; Sat, 21 Mar 2020 13:32:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.403 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.403 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS=0.274, MAY_BE_FORGED=0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QaHlvzoezm05 for ; Sat, 21 Mar 2020 13:32:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 44C1F3A095E for ; Sat, 21 Mar 2020 13:32:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.127.239] (mta-70-120-123-175.stx.rr.com [70.120.123.175] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 02LKWBxC041161 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Sat, 21 Mar 2020 15:32:12 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1584822733; bh=7CvD+8Pwsc2LXKHPfhQPUlvVliMwTahAZAWdyzXvANs=; h=From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References; b=f8TYO22BoaDnQFfNX2Vbu/mKk8q7qJa4yscIKTHhfPnFSTk6P7idRj5cbW11TWzsq YqsvZOtZKG9AIDCGCzW3UghWllsuXgKwZpmkvEY6HJUm9pP/5z4k0dAtzwnD65tj3S 98GhTcWfHuInNaTYZNAdGk01EsRCDBn9DJ0kPyEA= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host mta-70-120-123-175.stx.rr.com [70.120.123.175] (may be forged) claimed to be [192.168.127.239] From: Ben Campbell Message-Id: <2BD9B0A0-7995-42D0-9237-3E80CAB13D68@nostrum.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_3B6FE030-57BE-415A-A7BA-EDE613CB521A"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.60.0.2.5\)) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 15:32:04 -0500 In-Reply-To: Cc: Patrick McManus , DISPATCH WG To: E Sam References: <82FA51DD-700A-4A7E-B943-61461E0B465C@nostrum.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.60.0.2.5) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] Volunteers Needed X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 20:32:17 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_3B6FE030-57BE-415A-A7BA-EDE613CB521A Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_4AB08A74-1AC1-48F1-9163-D7A81FFA86B4" --Apple-Mail=_4AB08A74-1AC1-48F1-9163-D7A81FFA86B4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Thanks! For everyone else: We still need two more volunteers.We currently have a = tight agenda, and who knows what sort of technical issues might come up = when we start the actual meeting. Please help us get things rolling on = time by volunteering now. Thanks! Ben. > On Mar 19, 2020, at 6:06 PM, E Sam wrote: >=20 > I can help. I can do note taking or Jabber, whatever you want. >=20 > On Thu, Mar 19, 2020 at 6:55 PM Ben Campbell > wrote: > Hi DISPATCH people, >=20 > Monday=E2=80=99s virtual meeting will be a grand experiment. I=E2=80=99d= like to get volunteers for the following in advance, so we can minimize = meeting startup time: >=20 > 2 note takes to capture decisions and action items. >=20 > 1 Jabber Scribe to take questions to the queue for anyone who is = unable to use WebEx for voice. >=20 > Thanks! >=20 > Ben. > _______________________________________________ > dispatch mailing list > dispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch = > _______________________________________________ > dispatch mailing list > dispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch --Apple-Mail=_4AB08A74-1AC1-48F1-9163-D7A81FFA86B4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Thanks! 

For everyone else: We still need two more volunteers.We = currently have a tight agenda, and who knows what sort of technical = issues might come up when we start the actual meeting. Please help us = get things rolling on time by volunteering now.

Thanks!

Ben.

On Mar = 19, 2020, at 6:06 PM, E Sam <winshell64@gmail.com> wrote:

I can help. I can do note taking or Jabber, = whatever you want. 

On Thu, Mar = 19, 2020 at 6:55 PM Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com> wrote:
Hi DISPATCH people,

Monday=E2=80=99s virtual meeting will be a grand experiment. I=E2=80=99d = like to get volunteers for the following in advance, so we can minimize = meeting startup time:

2 note takes to capture decisions and action items.

1 Jabber Scribe to take questions to the queue for anyone who is unable = to use WebEx for voice.

Thanks!

Ben.
_______________________________________________
dispatch mailing list
dispatch@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
_______________________________________________
dispatch = mailing list
dispatch@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch

= --Apple-Mail=_4AB08A74-1AC1-48F1-9163-D7A81FFA86B4-- --Apple-Mail=_3B6FE030-57BE-415A-A7BA-EDE613CB521A Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEExW9rpd7ez4DexOFOgFZKbJXz1A0FAl52ecQACgkQgFZKbJXz 1A3q7g/+PUUYmf8BfQ0pol4nZvoB0IgOk9nN0wx6P/KITW/74yE/6VjqrRVKlFdj OyYq7V0NEpYyUI06+BMFoaE8/2CXJk+/W3Cj0Dl6eupxQutU5ksMbgfa+0Ed2I0M tVA9tICW3vnQabQvnQHrybKZlI2OH1BYOdbkMNGgoNahfLeOzWFwAYWzUIlyxIvs R/D7W8WOaq8UYRoFDG/nDe/uPH4vWYa+q+RHVU+9mH/PwJ5XLTjhrE1vCYisL60p +Bg3FsiVZEMbZH6+1RTcJu1x+0RHhdKH1NTn6G5uGouojNd9D+dWJVPdNxBHmr85 EMYIzaiLWaXgtjDkUgcxx9x7e+bM5IWXKeLltowR5ME+akz+mhwCC1vfXLQ5SLkH cTVNhreqfg/08yVin6h368Wqck/JJ1beiz3mHU6dr/LSToa2+x7v0UQddY1xc+C0 zFbD6kM066b99dRIiHlu2FwRHRJ4LB7sVXuPAGaYTU65s4bXs0vSlAZ9HQTO4PJY r1hujlms5MOME9pAGeMPgqJlQQAr8EXYbPKwsRvykmjrNdhIBAwbpKehubgBOu68 /GDXT1E6xAQPYucARuTEm4en3rZzkBIe5RUZqZJQxpdnyoIY/LB1bpSWggdNiR8w wFaroDqAc+7cCLBJ1NC4RAzPt2vbci75/HmU1C4cxLphXUKmPXU= =5B1e -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_3B6FE030-57BE-415A-A7BA-EDE613CB521A-- From nobody Sat Mar 21 13:34:55 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D60D3A095C; Sat, 21 Mar 2020 13:34:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.403 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.403 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS=0.274, MAY_BE_FORGED=0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tG4HlmilRS69; Sat, 21 Mar 2020 13:34:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BE9163A0962; Sat, 21 Mar 2020 13:34:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.127.239] (mta-70-120-123-175.stx.rr.com [70.120.123.175] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 02LKYfdO041645 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Sat, 21 Mar 2020 15:34:42 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1584822883; bh=rSNFlwlMOAPKd1dz535dd2qPuMEPj03c3Cyjr2xC3XA=; h=From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References; b=ezAN64Pbkf2KKOziKpu9mWBf8aZJg/F3mQ3aBAu7Xitj5Aozh2S7AcFXBUi9GTVRg eY5sbCs1U1bp9bFo4nqLZEDeymuN7laPSZ/BxjCRSCcw2ePsjPxV8nr1X9jHzUOl9p zH3XqE6aiGs5wfK70UzuzlMtFP+d8EHyQoru3VQE= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host mta-70-120-123-175.stx.rr.com [70.120.123.175] (may be forged) claimed to be [192.168.127.239] From: Ben Campbell Message-Id: <2844E7A0-171E-41CA-B08E-55CADEE48BB0@nostrum.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_67886021-C93B-4FA3-AED2-1A14DEE5D968"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.60.0.2.5\)) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 15:34:34 -0500 In-Reply-To: <77C1ACC4-D5CA-4A27-8507-580304CC4655@nostrum.com> Cc: "Sreekanth Narayanan (sreenara)" , "dispatch-chairs@ietf.org" , "Kaustubh Inamdar (kinamdar)" To: "dispatch@ietf.org" References: <73852274-8033-4864-94AC-AAC149A9E4E0@nostrum.com> <77C1ACC4-D5CA-4A27-8507-580304CC4655@nostrum.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.60.0.2.5) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] PROPOSED CHARTER FOR ASAP (Automatic SIP trunking And Peering) X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 20:34:53 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_67886021-C93B-4FA3-AED2-1A14DEE5D968 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_01D34D1B-2989-4744-B53E-06A3FDE0F0F9" --Apple-Mail=_01D34D1B-2989-4744-B53E-06A3FDE0F0F9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Everyone, Gonzalo S. wins the chair-appreciation award for being the first to = respond to a chair request for input :-) Anyone else? We will have a tight agenda on Monday; any chance we could = close this topic prior to the meeting? > On Mar 12, 2020, at 3:14 PM, Ben Campbell wrote: >=20 > Hi Again Everyone, >=20 > I know people have been more caught up in how we handle the = cancelation of the IETF107 in-person meeting than in day to day DISPATCH = email. One way we can handle that is to complete discussions on list = rather than taking meeting time. This seems like a good candidate for = that. >=20 > Thanks! >=20 > Ben. >=20 >> On Mar 11, 2020, at 4:21 PM, Ben Campbell > wrote: >>=20 >> Hi Everyone, >>=20 >> The proponents have gone through a few revisions of the proposed = charter (below) based on list feedback. At this point, we=E2=80=99d like = to call the questions on what to recommend to to the ART ADs. Please = respond to the following questions: >>=20 >> 1. Is the topic described suitable for a reasonably short-lived = mini-working group, without requiring a separate BoF first? >>=20 >> 2. Is the charter a good starting point from which to develop a final = charter (through the usual charter review process for new working = groups) >>=20 >> 3. Would you participate in a working group with a charter = substantially similar to this one? >>=20 >> Note that we have agenda time allocated for this on an upcoming = virtual meeting (details TBD), but if we can close these questions via = email, we can give that time back to other things. >>=20 >> Thanks! >>=20 >> Ben. >>=20 >>> On Feb 27, 2020, at 10:56 PM, Sreekanth Narayanan (sreenara) = > wrote: >>>=20 >>> All, >>>=20 >>> Here are the revisions to the proposed charter of ASAP (Automatic = SIP trunking And Peering) after incorporating the latest comments. = Suggestions/comments are welcome. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> The deployment of a Session Initiation Protocol (SIP)-based = infrastructure in enterprise and service provider communication networks = is increasing at a rapid pace. Consequently, direct IP peering between = enterprise and service provider networks is quickly replacing = traditional methods of interconnection between enterprise and service = provider networks. >>>=20 >>> Currently published standards provide a strong foundation over which = direct IP peering can be realized. However, given the sheer number of = these standards, it is often not clear which behavioural subsets, = extensions to baseline protocols and operating principles ought to be = configured by the enterprise network administrator to ensure successful = peering with a SIP service provider network. This lack of context often = leads to interoperability issues between enterprise and service provider = SIP networks resulting in a large number of support cases being opened = with enterprise equipment manufacturers and SIP service providers. = Subsequently, deployment times for SIP trunking between enterprise and = service provider networks increase significantly. >>>=20 >>> This work would define a descriptive capability set, which is = populated by a SIP service provider, and which, when communicated to an = enterprise network, provides the enterprise network with sufficient = information to setup SIP trunking with the SIP service provider. Such a = capability set would not only result in SIP trunking deployment times = being drastically scaled down, but also would result in a significant = decrease in interoperability issues between enterprise and service = provider network. Over the long run, operational costs for service = providers and enterprise equipment manufactures would likely decrease as = a result of fewer support cases. >>>=20 >>> This work would make use of HTTPS based framework that allows a SIP = service provider to offload a detailed capability set to the enterprise = network. HTTPS is used in favor of SIP for the following reasons: >>> 1. While there are extensions to baseline SIP that could potentially = allow a capability set to be communicated from the service provider to = the enterprise network, none of these extensions are readily usable to = achieve the objective of this work. >>> 2. Any modifications to existing SIP-based extensions to fit the = objective of this work would require equipment manufacturers to upgrade = their SIP stacks. >>>=20 >>> The scope of activity includes: >>>=20 >>> * Define a robust capability set which encapsulates sufficient = information to ensure smooth IP peering between enterprise and service = provider SIP networks. >>> * Define a data model for the capability set. >>> * Extensibility of the data model to allow proprietary parameters to = be encoded. >>> * A HTTPS-based transport mechanism using which the capability set = is communicated from the service provider network to the enterprise = network. >>> * A mechanism to discover the capability server hosted in the SIP = service provider network >>>=20 >>> The following is out of scope: >>> * Extensions to SIP that enable an enterprise network to solicit and = obtain a descriptive capability set from a SIP service provider. >>> * A workflow/mechanism that allows service providers to directly = configure devices in the enterprise network. >>>=20 >>> The group will produce >>> * Requirements, Use Cases and Architecture draft. >>> * Specification for SIP Auto Peer. >>>=20 >>> This group will co-ordinate with the SIP core workgroup and the = SIPConnect efforts carried out by the SIP Forum. >>>=20 >>> Milestones: >>> Send protocol specification to IESG >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> dispatch mailing list >>> dispatch@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch = >>=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > dispatch mailing list > dispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch --Apple-Mail=_01D34D1B-2989-4744-B53E-06A3FDE0F0F9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi = Everyone,

Gonzalo S. = wins the chair-appreciation award for being the first to respond to a = chair request for input :-) 

Anyone else? We will have a tight = agenda on Monday; any chance we could close this topic prior to the = meeting?

On Mar 12, 2020, at 3:14 PM, Ben Campbell = <ben@nostrum.com> = wrote:

Hi Again Everyone,

I know people have been = more caught up in how we handle the cancelation of the IETF107 in-person = meeting than in day to day DISPATCH email. One way we can handle that is = to complete discussions on list rather than taking meeting time. This = seems like a good candidate for that.

Thanks!

Ben.

On Mar = 11, 2020, at 4:21 PM, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com> wrote:

Hi Everyone,

The proponents have gone = through a few revisions of the proposed charter (below) based on list = feedback. At this point, we=E2=80=99d like to call the questions on what = to recommend to to the ART ADs. Please respond to the following = questions:

1. = Is the topic described suitable for a reasonably short-lived = mini-working group, without requiring a separate BoF first?

2. Is the charter a good = starting point from which to develop a final charter (through the usual = charter review process for new working groups)

3. Would you participate in a working = group with a charter substantially similar to this one?

Note that we have agenda = time allocated for this on an upcoming virtual meeting (details TBD), = but if we can close these questions via email, we can give that time = back to other things.

Thanks!

Ben.

On Feb = 27, 2020, at 10:56 PM, Sreekanth Narayanan (sreenara) <sreenara=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

All,

Here are the revisions to the proposed charter of ASAP = (Automatic SIP trunking And Peering) after incorporating the latest = comments. Suggestions/comments are welcome.


The deployment of a Session Initiation = Protocol (SIP)-based infrastructure in enterprise and service provider = communication networks is increasing at a rapid pace. Consequently, = direct IP peering between enterprise and service provider networks is = quickly replacing traditional methods of interconnection between = enterprise and service provider networks.

Currently published = standards provide a strong foundation over which direct IP peering can = be realized. However, given the sheer number of these standards, it is = often not clear which behavioural subsets, extensions to baseline = protocols and operating principles ought to be configured by the = enterprise network administrator to ensure successful peering with a SIP = service provider network. This lack of context often leads to = interoperability issues between enterprise and service provider SIP = networks resulting in a large number of support cases being opened with = enterprise equipment manufacturers and SIP service providers. = Subsequently, deployment times for SIP trunking between enterprise and = service provider networks increase significantly.

This work would define = a descriptive capability set, which is populated by a SIP service = provider, and which, when communicated to an enterprise network, = provides the enterprise network with sufficient information to setup SIP = trunking with the SIP service provider. Such a capability set would not = only result in SIP trunking deployment times being drastically scaled = down, but also would result in a significant decrease in = interoperability issues between enterprise and service provider network. = Over the long run, operational costs for service providers and = enterprise equipment manufactures would likely decrease as a result of = fewer support cases.

This work would make use of HTTPS based = framework that allows a SIP service provider to offload a detailed = capability set to the enterprise network. HTTPS is used in favor of SIP = for the following reasons:
1. While = there are extensions to baseline SIP that could potentially allow a = capability set to be communicated from the service provider to the = enterprise network, none of these extensions are readily usable to = achieve the objective of this work.
2.= Any modifications to existing SIP-based extensions to fit the objective = of this work would require equipment manufacturers to upgrade their SIP = stacks.

The scope of activity includes:

* Define a robust = capability set which encapsulates sufficient information to ensure = smooth IP peering between enterprise and service provider SIP = networks.
* Define a data model for = the capability set.
* Extensibility = of the data model to allow proprietary parameters to be encoded.
* A HTTPS-based transport mechanism = using which the capability set is communicated from the service provider = network to the enterprise network.
* = A mechanism to discover the capability server hosted in the SIP service = provider network

The following is out of scope:
* Extensions to SIP that enable an = enterprise network to solicit and obtain a descriptive capability set = from a SIP service provider.
* A = workflow/mechanism that allows service providers to directly configure = devices in the enterprise network.
The group will produce
* Requirements, Use Cases and = Architecture draft.
* Specification = for SIP Auto Peer.

This group will co-ordinate with the = SIP core workgroup and the SIPConnect efforts carried out by the SIP = Forum.

Milestones:
<Date = TBD> Send protocol specification to IESG
 
_______________________________________________
dispatch mailing list
dispatch@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch



_______________________________________________
dispatch mailing list
dispatch@ietf.org
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12:42:58.1953 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: OO4+vRS8o47XYv6yaW1/D5Td0wd9OmOn9Yk6nXS9cJBNNDSCAKPM6VENCjy89fQxEOmFHeTAtkvN6rUKogq28A== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BYAPR11MB2536 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.12, xch-rcd-002.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-6.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] PROPOSED CHARTER FOR ASAP (Automatic SIP trunking And Peering) X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2020 12:43:05 -0000 --_000_BYAPR11MB282170B57A64CC802DAB7E6BDDF30BYAPR11MB2821namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Christer, What are the SIP-based mechanisms you have in mind? If there are more than = one, I assume the exchange of OPTIONS/200OK (with cap set in the body of th= e response) is one of them. Theoretically, while it is possible to leverage= something like SIP OPTIONS, SIP trunking deployment realities between ente= rprise and service provider networks require the trunk to first be register= ed (SIP REGISTER/200OK) before any SIP traffic can be exchanged between the= two networks, for example, an OPTIONS or even an INVITE to setup calls. To= that end, for a SIP-based solution to work, the service provider ought to = change this behaviour, why would that method be advocated when there is an = alternative? While this entire framework attempts to ease SIP trunking betw= een enterprise and service provider networks, why must the framework use SI= P? Why not HTTPS? Is is purely because this framework is related to "SIP" t= runking? What are the advantages of using SIP over HTTPS in this specific scenario? What is the barrier to deployment of a SIP-based method as opposed to a HTT= PS based method? I suspect the former is more difficult. Here are some of the advantages for HTTPS: The service providers need only deploy HTTPS servers accessible over the In= ternet so that the enterprise can obtain a capability set. There is no chan= ge on the part of the service provider in terms of how they handle SIP. There is also very little change required on part of enterprise SBC vendors= . Almost all SBCs today support HTTPS, XML & YANG. I would like to reiterate that using HTTPS in this context doesn't in any w= ay mean that this is the new "normal" for soliciting and obtaining a remote= SIP peers capability - the OPTIONS method was designed for that. This is A= scenario for which HTTPS is conducive and has nothing to do with creating = a new way of communicating capabilities. Regards Sreekanth ________________________________ From: Christer Holmberg Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2020 6:03 AM To: Ben Campbell ; dispatch@ietf.org Cc: Sreekanth Narayanan (sreenara) ; Kaustubh Inamdar (= kinamdar) ; dispatch-chairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [dispatch] PROPOSED CHARTER FOR ASAP (Automatic SIP trunking A= nd Peering) Hi, AFAIK, the authors of the proposed charter didn=92t reply to my latest comm= ents (which I sent twice). They may have tried to address them in the lates= t version of the proposed charter, but I think it would have been useful to= have a discussion on the list. I think my main issue was describing why the existing SIP capability exchan= ge mechanisms cannot be used. The proposed charter now says: >1. While there are extensions to baseline SIP that could potentially allow= a capability set to be communicated from the service provider to the enter= prise network, >none of these extensions are readily usable to achieve the objective of th= is work. This doesn=92t say much. It would be useful with some text on why none of t= he extensions are readily usable. >2. Any modifications to existing SIP-based extensions to fit the objective= of this work would require equipment manufacturers to upgrade their SIP st= acks. This would also need more justification, because doesn=92t SIP extensions i= n general require upgrading of SIP stacks? Regards, Christer From: dispatch on behalf of Ben Campbell Date: Saturday, 21 March 2020 at 22.35 To: "dispatch@ietf.org" Cc: "Sreekanth Narayanan (sreenara)" , "Kaustubh Inamdar (kinamdar)" , "dispatch-chairs@iet= f.org" Subject: Re: [dispatch] PROPOSED CHARTER FOR ASAP (Automatic SIP trunking A= nd Peering) Hi Everyone, Gonzalo S. wins the chair-appreciation award for being the first to respond= to a chair request for input :-) Anyone else? We will have a tight agenda on Monday; any chance we could clo= se this topic prior to the meeting? On Mar 12, 2020, at 3:14 PM, Ben Campbell > wrote: Hi Again Everyone, I know people have been more caught up in how we handle the cancelation of = the IETF107 in-person meeting than in day to day DISPATCH email. One way we= can handle that is to complete discussions on list rather than taking meet= ing time. This seems like a good candidate for that. Thanks! Ben. On Mar 11, 2020, at 4:21 PM, Ben Campbell > wrote: Hi Everyone, The proponents have gone through a few revisions of the proposed charter (b= elow) based on list feedback. At this point, we=92d like to call the questi= ons on what to recommend to to the ART ADs. Please respond to the following= questions: 1. Is the topic described suitable for a reasonably short-lived mini-workin= g group, without requiring a separate BoF first? 2. Is the charter a good starting point from which to develop a final chart= er (through the usual charter review process for new working groups) 3. Would you participate in a working group with a charter substantially si= milar to this one? Note that we have agenda time allocated for this on an upcoming virtual mee= ting (details TBD), but if we can close these questions via email, we can g= ive that time back to other things. Thanks! Ben. On Feb 27, 2020, at 10:56 PM, Sreekanth Narayanan (sreenara) > wro= te: All, Here are the revisions to the proposed charter of ASAP (Automatic SIP trunk= ing And Peering) after incorporating the latest comments. Suggestions/comme= nts are welcome. The deployment of a Session Initiation Protocol (SIP)-based infrastructure = in enterprise and service provider communication networks is increasing at = a rapid pace. Consequently, direct IP peering between enterprise and servic= e provider networks is quickly replacing traditional methods of interconnec= tion between enterprise and service provider networks. Currently published standards provide a strong foundation over which direct= IP peering can be realized. However, given the sheer number of these stand= ards, it is often not clear which behavioural subsets, extensions to baseli= ne protocols and operating principles ought to be configured by the enterpr= ise network administrator to ensure successful peering with a SIP service p= rovider network. This lack of context often leads to interoperability issue= s between enterprise and service provider SIP networks resulting in a large= number of support cases being opened with enterprise equipment manufacture= rs and SIP service providers. Subsequently, deployment times for SIP trunki= ng between enterprise and service provider networks increase significantly. This work would define a descriptive capability set, which is populated by = a SIP service provider, and which, when communicated to an enterprise netwo= rk, provides the enterprise network with sufficient information to setup SI= P trunking with the SIP service provider. Such a capability set would not o= nly result in SIP trunking deployment times being drastically scaled down, = but also would result in a significant decrease in interoperability issues = between enterprise and service provider network. Over the long run, operati= onal costs for service providers and enterprise equipment manufactures woul= d likely decrease as a result of fewer support cases. This work would make use of HTTPS based framework that allows a SIP service= provider to offload a detailed capability set to the enterprise network. H= TTPS is used in favor of SIP for the following reasons: 1. While there are extensions to baseline SIP that could potentially allow = a capability set to be communicated from the service provider to the enterp= rise network, none of these extensions are readily usable to achieve the ob= jective of this work. 2. Any modifications to existing SIP-based extensions to fit the objective = of this work would require equipment manufacturers to upgrade their SIP sta= cks. The scope of activity includes: * Define a robust capability set which encapsulates sufficient information = to ensure smooth IP peering between enterprise and service provider SIP net= works. * Define a data model for the capability set. * Extensibility of the data model to allow proprietary parameters to be enc= oded. * A HTTPS-based transport mechanism using which the capability set is commu= nicated from the service provider network to the enterprise network. * A mechanism to discover the capability server hosted in the SIP service p= rovider network The following is out of scope: * Extensions to SIP that enable an enterprise network to solicit and obtain= a descriptive capability set from a SIP service provider. * A workflow/mechanism that allows service providers to directly configure = devices in the enterprise network. The group will produce * Requirements, Use Cases and Architecture draft. * Specification for SIP Auto Peer. This group will co-ordinate with the SIP core workgroup and the SIPConnect = efforts carried out by the SIP Forum. Milestones: Send protocol specification to IESG _______________________________________________ dispatch mailing list dispatch@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch _______________________________________________ dispatch mailing list dispatch@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch --_000_BYAPR11MB282170B57A64CC802DAB7E6BDDF30BYAPR11MB2821namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Christer,

What are the SIP-based mechanisms you have in mind? If there are more = than one, I assume the exchange of OPTIONS/200OK (with cap set in the body = of the response) is one of them. Theoretically, while it is possible to lev= erage something like SIP OPTIONS, SIP trunking deployment realities between enterprise and service provider = networks require the trunk to first be registered (SIP REGISTER/200OK) befo= re any SIP traffic can be exchanged between the two networks, for example, = an OPTIONS or even an INVITE to setup calls. To that end, for a SIP-based solution to work, the service pr= ovider ought to change this behaviour, why would that method be advocated w= hen there is an alternative? While this entire framework attempts to ease S= IP trunking between enterprise and service provider networks, why must the framework use SIP? Why not HTTPS? = Is is purely because this framework is related to "SIP" trunking?=

What are the advantages of using SIP over HTTPS in this specific scena= rio?
What is the barrier to deployment of a SIP-based method as opposed to = a HTTPS based method? I suspect the former is more difficult.

Here are some of the advantages for HTTPS:

The service providers need only deploy HTTPS servers accessible over t= he Internet so that the enterprise can obtain a capability set. There is no= change on the part of the service provider in terms of how they handle SIP= .
There is also very little change required on part of enterprise SBC ve= ndors. Almost all SBCs today support HTTPS, XML & YANG.
I would like to reiterate that using HTTPS in this context doesn't in= any way mean that this is the new "normal" for soliciting and ob= taining a remote SIP peers capability - the OPTIONS method was designed for= that. This is A scenario for which HTTPS is conducive and has nothing to do with creating a new way of communicatin= g capabilities.

Regards
Sreekanth


From: Christer Holmberg &= lt;christer.holmberg=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2020 6:03 AM
To: Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>; dispatch@ietf.org <disp= atch@ietf.org>
Cc: Sreekanth Narayanan (sreenara) <sreenara@cisco.com>; Kaust= ubh Inamdar (kinamdar) <kinamdar@cisco.com>; dispatch-chairs@ietf.org= <dispatch-chairs@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [dispatch] PROPOSED CHARTER FOR ASAP (Automatic SIP tru= nking And Peering)
 

Hi,

 

AFAIK, the authors of the proposed charter = didn=92t reply to my latest comments (which I sent twice). They may have tr= ied to address them in the latest version of the proposed charter, but I th= ink it would have been useful to have a discussion on the list.

 

I think my main issue was describing why th= e existing SIP capability exchange mechanisms cannot be used.

 

The proposed charter now says:

 

>1. While there are extensions to baseli= ne SIP that could potentially allow a capability set to be communicated fro= m the service provider to the enterprise network,

>none of these extensions are readily us= able to achieve the objective of this work.

 

This doesn=92t say much. It would be useful= with some text on why none of the extensions are readily usable.

 

>2. Any modifications to existing SIP-ba= sed extensions to fit the objective of this work would require equipment ma= nufacturers to upgrade their SIP stacks.

 

This would also need more justification, be= cause doesn=92t SIP extensions in general require upgrading of SIP stacks?<= /span>

 

Regards,

 

Christer

 

 

 

From: dispatch <dispatch-bounces@ietf.org= > on behalf of Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>
Date: Saturday, 21 March 2020 at 22.35
To: "dispatch@ietf.org" <dispatch@ietf.org>
Cc: "Sreekanth Narayanan (sreenara)" <sreenara=3D40cisc= o.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "Kaustubh Inamdar (kinamdar)" <kinam= dar@cisco.com>, "dispatch-chairs@ietf.org" <dispatch-chairs= @ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [dispatch] PROPOSED CHARTER FOR ASAP (Automatic SIP tru= nking And Peering)

 

Hi Everyone,

 

Gonzalo S. wins the chair-appreciation award for being the first to respond= to a chair request for input :-) 

 

Anyone else? We will have a tight agenda on Monday; any chance we could clo= se this topic prior to the meeting?



On Mar 12, 2020, at 3:14 PM, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com> wrote:

 

Hi Again Everyone,

 

I know people have been more caught up in how we handle the cancelation of = the IETF107 in-person meeting than in day to day DISPATCH email. One way we= can handle that is to complete discussions on list rather than taking meet= ing time. This seems like a good candidate for that.

 

Thanks!

 

Ben.



On Mar 11, 2020, at 4:21 PM, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com> wrote:

 

Hi Everyone,

 

The proponents have gone through a few revisions of the proposed charter (b= elow) based on list feedback. At this point, we=92d like to call the questi= ons on what to recommend to to the ART ADs. Please respond to the following= questions:

 

1. Is the topic described suitable for a reasonably short-lived mini-workin= g group, without requiring a separate BoF first?

 

2. Is the charter a good starting point from which to develop a final chart= er (through the usual charter review process for new working groups)

 

3. Would you participate in a working group with a charter substantially si= milar to this one?

 

Note that we have agenda time allocated for this on an upcoming virtual mee= ting (details TBD), but if we can close these questions via email, we can g= ive that time back to other things.

 

Thanks!

 

Ben.



On Feb 27, 2020, at 10:56 PM, Sreekanth Narayanan (sreenara) <sreenara=3D40cisco.com@dmarc= .ietf.org> wrote:

 

All,

 

Here are the revis= ions to the proposed charter of ASAP (Automatic SIP trunking And Peering) a= fter incorporating the latest comments. Suggestions/comments are welcome.

 

 

The deployment of = a Session Initiation Protocol (SIP)-based infrastructure in enterprise and = service provider communication networks is increasing at a rapid pace. Cons= equently, direct IP peering between enterprise and service provider networks is quickly replacing traditional methods of = interconnection between enterprise and service provider networks.

 

Currently publishe= d standards provide a strong foundation over which direct IP peering can be= realized. However, given the sheer number of these standards, it is often = not clear which behavioural subsets, extensions to baseline protocols and operating principles ought to be configured by t= he enterprise network administrator to ensure successful peering with a SIP= service provider network. This lack of context often leads to interoperabi= lity issues between enterprise and service provider SIP networks resulting in a large number of support cases= being opened with enterprise equipment manufacturers and SIP service provi= ders. Subsequently, deployment times for SIP trunking between enterprise an= d service provider networks increase significantly.

 

This work would de= fine a descriptive capability set, which is populated by a SIP service prov= ider, and which, when communicated to an enterprise network, provides the e= nterprise network with sufficient information to setup SIP trunking with the SIP service provider. Such a capability set= would not only result in SIP trunking deployment times being drastically s= caled down, but also would result in a significant decrease in interoperabi= lity issues between enterprise and service provider network. Over the long run, operational costs for service= providers and enterprise equipment manufactures would likely decrease as a= result of fewer support cases.

 

This work would ma= ke use of HTTPS based framework that allows a SIP service provider to offlo= ad a detailed capability set to the enterprise network. HTTPS is used in fa= vor of SIP for the following reasons:

1. While there are= extensions to baseline SIP that could potentially allow a capability set t= o be communicated from the service provider to the enterprise network, none= of these extensions are readily usable to achieve the objective of this work.

2. Any modificatio= ns to existing SIP-based extensions to fit the objective of this work would= require equipment manufacturers to upgrade their SIP stacks.

 

The scope of activ= ity includes:

 

* Define a robust = capability set which encapsulates sufficient information to ensure smooth I= P peering between enterprise and service provider SIP networks.

* Define a data mo= del for the capability set.

* Extensibility of= the data model to allow proprietary parameters to be encoded.

* A HTTPS-based tr= ansport mechanism using which the capability set is communicated from the s= ervice provider network to the enterprise network.

* A mechanism to d= iscover the capability server hosted in the SIP service provider network

 

The following is o= ut of scope:

* Extensions to SI= P that enable an enterprise network to solicit and obtain a descriptive cap= ability set from a SIP service provider.

* A workflow/mecha= nism that allows service providers to directly configure devices in the ent= erprise network.

 

The group will pro= duce

* Requirements, Us= e Cases and Architecture draft.

* Specification fo= r SIP Auto Peer.

 

This group will co= -ordinate with the SIP core workgroup and the SIPConnect efforts carried ou= t by the SIP Forum.

 

Milestones:=

<Date TBD> S= end protocol specification to IESG

 

____________________= ___________________________
dispatch mailing list
dispatch@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/= listinfo/dispatch

 



 

_______________________________________________
dispatch mailing list
dispatch@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch

 

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16:04:38.0352 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: ie1/OvD9X3qFLlu19JhXw9HPAPHKgs/tzhDvqHoMTY8X3DzdameuTPNoVWSCMXQVXbBBhXvzc6QgZLIhtzLnzg== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BYAPR11MB2550 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.36.7.15, xch-aln-005.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-12.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] PROPOSED CHARTER FOR ASAP (Automatic SIP trunking And Peering) X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2020 16:04:48 -0000 --_000_BYAPR11MB2821D2C79CA40997C76DA6B8DDF30BYAPR11MB2821namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Christer, >Having to exchange capabilities before the registration/session is establi= shed is a concrete justification. Please explain that in the proposed chart= er, because that would probably be one of the >most important inputs for th= is work :) We can accommodate this in the charter. > I am not saying it must use SIP =96 I am asking for a justification why H= TTPS would be more feasible than SIP. If we are going to use a non-SIP prot= ocol for exchanging SIP capabilities I think it is important for people to = know why we want to use a non-SIP protocol. I think the text in the draft as well as the latest charter proposal covers= this. We've mentioned a couple of points as to why HTTPs would be better t= han SIP. > Regarding SBCs, one of the issues by using a non-SIP mechanism is that SB= Cs won=92t be able to modify the capabilities =96 unless you intend to rout= e the HTTPS traffic through the SBCs too. > Perhaps there won=92t be any such intermediaries in the use-cases you hav= e in mind, but we should discuss whether we are ok with that. My point is t= hat, before we discuss protocol details, we > should be clear about what functionality, and what use-cases, we want to = support. The SBC isn=92t required to modify the capability set - it simply sources t= he HTTPS GET and parses the response. In what scenario would the SBC requir= e to modify the capabilities? The HTTPS GET, as per the draft, is always so= urced from an =93edge element=94 - the device that directly talks to the IT= SP. In most cases this always going to be the SBC. If for some reason this = isn=92t the SBC, then that device sources the HTTPS GET and parses the resp= onse. The use case is simple - the edge element directly responsible for in= terworking signaling and media between the enterprise and service provider = network, solicits a capability set and obtains the response. The reason it = is required for the edge element to do so is because, deployment realities = have demonstrated a concerted effort on the part of administrators to obtai= n and put in the correct configuration on these devices. Since the HTTP request is sourced from the edge element (in most cases, the= enterprise SBC), the only intermediaries are the HTTPS proxies that are lo= cated between the edge element and the service provider capability server. = In all use-cases for this work, it is the edge element that will reach out = with an HTTPS GET request. Regards Sreekanth ________________________________ From: Christer Holmberg Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2020 6:45 PM To: Sreekanth Narayanan (sreenara) ; Ben Campbell ; dispatch@ietf.org Cc: Kaustubh Inamdar (kinamdar) ; dispatch-chairs@ietf.= org Subject: Re: [dispatch] PROPOSED CHARTER FOR ASAP (Automatic SIP trunking A= nd Peering) Hi, >What are the SIP-based mechanisms you have in mind? If there are more than= one, I assume the exchange of OPTIONS/200OK (with cap set in the body of t= he response) is one of them. Yes. Most mechanisms can also be used with non-OPTION methods. >Theoretically, while it is possible to leverage something like SIP OPTIONS= , SIP trunking deployment realities between enterprise and service provider= networks >require the trunk to first be registered (SIP REGISTER/200OK) before any S= IP traffic can be exchanged between the two networks, for example, an OPTIO= NS >or even an INVITE to setup calls. Having to exchange capabilities before the registration/session is establis= hed is a concrete justification. Please explain that in the proposed charte= r, because that would probably be one of the most important inputs for this= work :) >To that end, for a SIP-based solution to work, the service provider ought = to change this behaviour, why would that method be advocated when there >is an alternative? While this entire framework attempts to ease SIP trunki= ng between enterprise and service provider networks, why must the framework >use SIP? Why not HTTPS? Is is purely because this framework is related to = "SIP" trunking? > > What are the advantages of using SIP over HTTPS in this specific scenario= ? > What is the barrier to deployment of a SIP-based method as opposed to a H= TTPS based method? I suspect the former is more difficult. I am not saying it must use SIP =96 I am asking for a justification why HTT= PS would be more feasible than SIP. If we are going to use a non-SIP protoc= ol for exchanging SIP capabilities I think it is important for people to kn= ow why we want to use a non-SIP protocol. >Here are some of the advantages for HTTPS: > >The service providers need only deploy HTTPS servers accessible over the I= nternet so that the enterprise can obtain a capability set. >There is no change on the part of the service provider in terms of how the= y handle SIP.. >There is also very little change required on part of enterprise SBC vendor= s. Almost all SBCs today support HTTPS, XML & YANG. >I would like to reiterate that using HTTPS in this context doesn't in any = way mean that this is the new "normal" for soliciting and obtaining a remot= e SIP peers capability - the OPTIONS method >was designed for that. This is= A scenario for which HTTPS is conducive and has nothing to do with creatin= g a new way of communicating capabilities. Regarding SBCs, one of the issues by using a non-SIP mechanism is that SBCs= won=92t be able to modify the capabilities =96 unless you intend to route = the HTTPS traffic through the SBCs too. Perhaps there won=92t be any such intermediaries in the use-cases you have = in mind, but we should discuss whether we are ok with that. My point is tha= t, before we discuss protocol details, we should be clear about what functi= onality, and what use-cases, we want to support. Thanks! Regards, Christer ________________________________ From: Christer Holmberg Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2020 6:03 AM To: Ben Campbell ; dispatch@ietf.org Cc: Sreekanth Narayanan (sreenara) ; Kaustubh Inamdar (= kinamdar) ; dispatch-chairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [dispatch] PROPOSED CHARTER FOR ASAP (Automatic SIP trunking A= nd Peering) Hi, AFAIK, the authors of the proposed charter didn=92t reply to my latest comm= ents (which I sent twice). They may have tried to address them in the lates= t version of the proposed charter, but I think it would have been useful to= have a discussion on the list. I think my main issue was describing why the existing SIP capability exchan= ge mechanisms cannot be used. The proposed charter now says: >1. While there are extensions to baseline SIP that could potentially allow= a capability set to be communicated from the service provider to the enter= prise network, >none of these extensions are readily usable to achieve the objective of th= is work. This doesn=92t say much. It would be useful with some text on why none of t= he extensions are readily usable. >2. Any modifications to existing SIP-based extensions to fit the objective= of this work would require equipment manufacturers to upgrade their SIP st= acks. This would also need more justification, because doesn=92t SIP extensions i= n general require upgrading of SIP stacks? Regards, Christer From: dispatch on behalf of Ben Campbell Date: Saturday, 21 March 2020 at 22.35 To: "dispatch@ietf.org" Cc: "Sreekanth Narayanan (sreenara)" , "Kaustubh Inamdar (kinamdar)" , "dispatch-chairs@iet= f.org" Subject: Re: [dispatch] PROPOSED CHARTER FOR ASAP (Automatic SIP trunking A= nd Peering) Hi Everyone, Gonzalo S. wins the chair-appreciation award for being the first to respond= to a chair request for input :-) Anyone else? We will have a tight agenda on Monday; any chance we could clo= se this topic prior to the meeting? On Mar 12, 2020, at 3:14 PM, Ben Campbell > wrote: Hi Again Everyone, I know people have been more caught up in how we handle the cancelation of = the IETF107 in-person meeting than in day to day DISPATCH email. One way we= can handle that is to complete discussions on list rather than taking meet= ing time. This seems like a good candidate for that. Thanks! Ben. On Mar 11, 2020, at 4:21 PM, Ben Campbell > wrote: Hi Everyone, The proponents have gone through a few revisions of the proposed charter (b= elow) based on list feedback. At this point, we=92d like to call the questi= ons on what to recommend to to the ART ADs. Please respond to the following= questions: 1. Is the topic described suitable for a reasonably short-lived mini-workin= g group, without requiring a separate BoF first? 2. Is the charter a good starting point from which to develop a final chart= er (through the usual charter review process for new working groups) 3. Would you participate in a working group with a charter substantially si= milar to this one? Note that we have agenda time allocated for this on an upcoming virtual mee= ting (details TBD), but if we can close these questions via email, we can g= ive that time back to other things. Thanks! Ben. On Feb 27, 2020, at 10:56 PM, Sreekanth Narayanan (sreenara) > wr= ote: All, Here are the revisions to the proposed charter of ASAP (Automatic SIP trunk= ing And Peering) after incorporating the latest comments. Suggestions/comme= nts are welcome. The deployment of a Session Initiation Protocol (SIP)-based infrastructure = in enterprise and service provider communication networks is increasing at = a rapid pace. Consequently, direct IP peering between enterprise and servic= e provider networks is quickly replacing traditional methods of interconnec= tion between enterprise and service provider networks. Currently published standards provide a strong foundation over which direct= IP peering can be realized. However, given the sheer number of these stand= ards, it is often not clear which behavioural subsets, extensions to baseli= ne protocols and operating principles ought to be configured by the enterpr= ise network administrator to ensure successful peering with a SIP service p= rovider network. This lack of context often leads to interoperability issue= s between enterprise and service provider SIP networks resulting in a large= number of support cases being opened with enterprise equipment manufacture= rs and SIP service providers. Subsequently, deployment times for SIP trunki= ng between enterprise and service provider networks increase significantly. This work would define a descriptive capability set, which is populated by = a SIP service provider, and which, when communicated to an enterprise netwo= rk, provides the enterprise network with sufficient information to setup SI= P trunking with the SIP service provider. Such a capability set would not o= nly result in SIP trunking deployment times being drastically scaled down, = but also would result in a significant decrease in interoperability issues = between enterprise and service provider network. Over the long run, operati= onal costs for service providers and enterprise equipment manufactures woul= d likely decrease as a result of fewer support cases. This work would make use of HTTPS based framework that allows a SIP service= provider to offload a detailed capability set to the enterprise network. H= TTPS is used in favor of SIP for the following reasons: 1. While there are extensions to baseline SIP that could potentially allow = a capability set to be communicated from the service provider to the enterp= rise network, none of these extensions are readily usable to achieve the ob= jective of this work. 2. Any modifications to existing SIP-based extensions to fit the objective = of this work would require equipment manufacturers to upgrade their SIP sta= cks. The scope of activity includes: * Define a robust capability set which encapsulates sufficient information = to ensure smooth IP peering between enterprise and service provider SIP net= works. * Define a data model for the capability set. * Extensibility of the data model to allow proprietary parameters to be enc= oded. * A HTTPS-based transport mechanism using which the capability set is commu= nicated from the service provider network to the enterprise network. * A mechanism to discover the capability server hosted in the SIP service p= rovider network The following is out of scope: * Extensions to SIP that enable an enterprise network to solicit and obtain= a descriptive capability set from a SIP service provider. * A workflow/mechanism that allows service providers to directly configure = devices in the enterprise network. The group will produce * Requirements, Use Cases and Architecture draft. * Specification for SIP Auto Peer. This group will co-ordinate with the SIP core workgroup and the SIPConnect = efforts carried out by the SIP Forum. Milestones: Send protocol specification to IESG _______________________________________________ dispatch mailing list dispatch@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch _______________________________________________ dispatch mailing list dispatch@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch --_000_BYAPR11MB2821D2C79CA40997C76DA6B8DDF30BYAPR11MB2821namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Christer,

 

>Having to exchange capabilities before the registr= ation/session is established is a concrete justification. Please explain th= at in the proposed charter, because that would probably be one of the >m= ost important inputs for this work :)


We can accommodate this in the charter.

> I am not saying it must use SIP =96 I am asking= for a justification why HTTPS would be more feasible than SIP. If we are g= oing to use a non-SIP protocol for exchanging SIP capabilities I think it is important for peopl= e to know why we want to use a non-SIP protocol.

I think the text in the draft as well as the latest charter proposal covers= this. We've mentioned a couple of points as to why HTTPs would be better t= han SIP.

> Regarding SBCs, one of the issues by using a non-= SIP mechanism is that SBCs won=92t be able to modify the capabilities =96 u= nless you intend to route the HTTPS traffic through the SBCs too.

> Perhaps there won=92t be any such intermediaries = in the use-cases you have in mind, but we should discuss whether we are ok = with that. My point is that, before we discuss protocol details, we

> should be clear about what functionality, and wha= t use-cases, we want to support.


The SBC isn=92t required to modify the capability set - it simply sources t= he HTTPS GET and parses the response. In what scenario would the SBC requir= e to modify the capabilities? The HTTPS GET, as per the draft, is always so= urced from an =93edge element=94 - the device that directly talks to the ITSP. In most cases this always going to= be the SBC. If for some reason this isn=92t the SBC, then that device sour= ces the HTTPS GET and parses the response. The use case is simple - the edg= e element directly responsible for interworking signaling and media between the enterprise and service provid= er network, solicits a capability set and obtains the response. The reason = it is required for the edge element to do so is because, deployment realiti= es have demonstrated a concerted effort on the part of administrators to obtain and put in the correct conf= iguration on these devices.

Since the HTTP request is sourced from the edge element (in most cases, the= enterprise SBC), the only intermediaries are the HTTPS proxies that are lo= cated between the edge element and the service provider capability server. = In all use-cases for this work, it is the edge element that will reach out with an HTTPS GET request.

Regards
Sreekanth

From: Christer Holmberg &= lt;christer.holmberg=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2020 6:45 PM
To: Sreekanth Narayanan (sreenara) <sreenara@cisco.com>; Ben C= ampbell <ben@nostrum.com>; dispatch@ietf.org <dispatch@ietf.org>= ;
Cc: Kaustubh Inamdar (kinamdar) <kinamdar@cisco.com>; dispatch= -chairs@ietf.org <dispatch-chairs@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [dispatch] PROPOSED CHARTER FOR ASAP (Automatic SIP tru= nking And Peering)
 

Hi,

 = ;

>= ;What are the SIP-based mechanisms you have in = mind? If there are more than one, I assume the exchange of OPTIONS/200OK= (with cap set in the body of the response) is one of them.

 

Yes. Most mechanisms can also be used with non-OPTION = methods.

 

>= ;Theoretically, while it is possible to leverag= e something like SIP OPTIONS, SIP trunking deployment realities between ent= erprise and service provider networks

>require the trunk to first be reg= istered (SIP REGISTER/200OK) before any SIP traffic can be exchanged betwee= n the two networks, for example, an OPTIONS

>or even an INVITE to setup calls.

 

Having to exchange capabilities before the registratio= n/session is established is a concrete justification. Please explain that i= n the proposed charter, because that would probably be one of the most impo= rtant inputs for this work :)

 

>= ;To that end, for a SIP-based solution to work,= the service provider ought to change this behaviour, why would that method= be advocated when there

>is an alternative? While this ent= ire framework attempts to ease SIP trunking between enterprise and service = provider networks, why must the framework

>u= se SIP? Why not HTTPS? Is is purely because this framework is related to &q= uot;SIP" trunking?

> <= /p>

> What are the advantages of using SIP over HTTPS in this spe= cific scenario?

> What is the barrier to deployment of a SIP-based method as = opposed to a HTTPS based method? I suspect the former is more difficult.

 

I am not saying it must use SIP =96 I am asking for a = justification why HTTPS would be more feasible than SIP. If we are going to= use a non-SIP protocol for exchanging SIP capabilities I think it is impor= tant for people to know why we want to use a non-SIP protocol.

 

>= ;Here are some of the advantages for HTTPS:

>= ; 

>= ;The service providers need only deploy HTTPS s= ervers accessible over the Internet so that the enterprise can obtain a cap= ability set.

>There is no change on the part of= the service provider in terms of how they handle SIP..

>= ;There is also very little change required on p= art of enterprise SBC vendors. Almost all SBCs today support HTTPS, XML & YANG.

>= ;I would like to reiterate that using HTTPS in = this context doesn't in any way mean that this is the new "normal"= ; for soliciting and obtaining a remote SIP peers capability - the OPTIONS method >was designed f= or that.  

Regarding SBCs, one of the issues by using a non-SIP m= echanism is that SBCs won=92t be able to modify the capabilities =96 unless= you intend to route the HTTPS traffic through the SBCs too.

Perhaps there won=92t be any such intermediaries in th= e use-cases you have in mind, but we should discuss whether we are ok with = that. My point is that, before we discuss protocol details, we should be cl= ear about what functionality, and what use-cases, we want to support.

 

Thanks!

 

Regards,

 

Christer

 

 

 

From:= Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org>= ;
Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2020 6:03 AM
To: Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>; dispatch@ietf.org <disp= atch@ietf.org>
Cc: Sreekanth Narayanan (sreenara) <sreenara@cisco.com>; Kaust= ubh Inamdar (kinamdar) <kinamdar@cisco.com>; dispatch-chairs@ietf.org= <dispatch-chairs@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [dispatch] PROPOSED CHARTER FOR ASAP (Automatic SIP tru= nking And Peering)

 

Hi,

 

AFAIK, the authors of the proposed charter didn=92t re= ply to my latest comments (which I sent twice). They may have tried to addr= ess them in the latest version of the proposed charter, but I think it woul= d have been useful to have a discussion on the list.

 

I think my main issue was describing why the existing = SIP capability exchange mechanisms cannot be used.

 

The proposed charter now says:

 

>1. While there are extensions to baseline SIP that= could potentially allow a capability set to be communicated from the servi= ce provider to the enterprise network,

>none of these extensions are readily usable to ach= ieve the objective of this work.

 

This doesn=92t say much. It would be useful with some = text on why none of the extensions are readily usable.

 

>2. Any modifications to existing SIP-based extensi= ons to fit the objective of this work would require equipment manufacturers= to upgrade their SIP stacks.

 

This would also need more justification, because doesn= =92t SIP extensions in general require upgrading of SIP stacks?

 

Regards,

 

Christer

 

 

 

From: dispatch <dispatch-bounces@ietf.org= > on behalf of Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>
Date: Saturday, 21 March 2020 at 22.35
To: "dispatch@ietf.org" <dispatch@ietf.org>
Cc: "Sreekanth Narayanan (sreenara)" <sreenara=3D40cisc= o.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "Kaustubh Inamdar (kinamdar)" <kinam= dar@cisco.com>, "dispatch-chairs@ietf.org" <dispatch-chairs= @ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [dispatch] PROPOSED CHARTER FOR ASAP (Automatic SIP tru= nking And Peering)

 

Hi Everyone,

 

Gonzalo S. wins the chair-appreciation award for being the first to respond= to a chair request for input :-) 

 

Anyone else? We will have a tight agenda on Monday; any chance we could clo= se this topic prior to the meeting?

 

On Mar 12, 2020, at 3:14 PM, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com> wrote:

 

Hi Again Everyone,

 

I know people have been more caught up in how we handle the cancelation of = the IETF107 in-person meeting than in day to day DISPATCH email. One way we= can handle that is to complete discussions on list rather than taking meet= ing time. This seems like a good candidate for that.

 

Thanks!

 

Ben.

 

On Mar 11, 2020, at 4:21 PM, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com> wrote:

 

Hi Everyone,

 

The proponents have gone through a few revisions of the proposed charter (b= elow) based on list feedback. At this point, we=92d like to call the questi= ons on what to recommend to to the ART ADs. Please respond to the following= questions:

 

1. Is the topic described suitable for a reasonably short-lived mini-workin= g group, without requiring a separate BoF first?

 

2. Is the charter a good starting point from which to develop a final chart= er (through the usual charter review process for new working groups)

 

3. Would you participate in a working group with a charter substantially si= milar to this one?

 

Note that we have agenda time allocated for this on an upcoming virtual mee= ting (details TBD), but if we can close these questions via email, we can g= ive that time back to other things.

 

Thanks!

 

Ben.

 

On Feb 27, 2020, at 10:56 PM, Sreekanth Narayanan (sreenara) <sreenara=3D40cisco.com@dmarc= ..ietf.org> wrote:

 

All,

 

Here are the revis= ions to the proposed charter of ASAP (Automatic SIP trunking And Peering) a= fter incorporating the latest comments. Suggestions/comments are welcome.

 

 

The deployment of = a Session Initiation Protocol (SIP)-based infrastructure in enterprise and = service provider communication networks is increasing at a rapid pace. Cons= equently, direct IP peering between enterprise and service provider networks is quickly replacing traditional methods of = interconnection between enterprise and service provider networks.

 

Currently publishe= d standards provide a strong foundation over which direct IP peering can be= realized. However, given the sheer number of these standards, it is often = not clear which behavioural subsets, extensions to baseline protocols and operating principles ought to be configured by t= he enterprise network administrator to ensure successful peering with a SIP= service provider network. This lack of context often leads to interoperabi= lity issues between enterprise and service provider SIP networks resulting in a large number of support cases= being opened with enterprise equipment manufacturers and SIP service provi= ders. Subsequently, deployment times for SIP trunking between enterprise an= d service provider networks increase significantly.

 

This work would de= fine a descriptive capability set, which is populated by a SIP service prov= ider, and which, when communicated to an enterprise network, provides the e= nterprise network with sufficient information to setup SIP trunking with the SIP service provider. Such a capability set= would not only result in SIP trunking deployment times being drastically s= caled down, but also would result in a significant decrease in interoperabi= lity issues between enterprise and service provider network. Over the long run, operational costs for service= providers and enterprise equipment manufactures would likely decrease as a= result of fewer support cases.

 

This work would ma= ke use of HTTPS based framework that allows a SIP service provider to offlo= ad a detailed capability set to the enterprise network. HTTPS is used in fa= vor of SIP for the following reasons:

1. While there are= extensions to baseline SIP that could potentially allow a capability set t= o be communicated from the service provider to the enterprise network, none= of these extensions are readily usable to achieve the objective of this work.

2. Any modificatio= ns to existing SIP-based extensions to fit the objective of this work would= require equipment manufacturers to upgrade their SIP stacks.

 

The scope of activ= ity includes:

 

* Define a robust = capability set which encapsulates sufficient information to ensure smooth I= P peering between enterprise and service provider SIP networks.

* Define a data mo= del for the capability set.

* Extensibility of= the data model to allow proprietary parameters to be encoded.

* A HTTPS-based tr= ansport mechanism using which the capability set is communicated from the s= ervice provider network to the enterprise network.

* A mechanism to d= iscover the capability server hosted in the SIP service provider network

 

The following is o= ut of scope:

* Extensions to SI= P that enable an enterprise network to solicit and obtain a descriptive cap= ability set from a SIP service provider.

* A workflow/mecha= nism that allows service providers to directly configure devices in the ent= erprise network.

 

The group will pro= duce

* Requirements, Us= e Cases and Architecture draft.

* Specification fo= r SIP Auto Peer.

 

This group will co= -ordinate with the SIP core workgroup and the SIPConnect efforts carried ou= t by the SIP Forum.

 

Milestones:=

<Date TBD> S= end protocol specification to IESG

 

____________________= ___________________________
dispatch mailing list
dispatch@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/= listinfo/dispatch

 

 

 

_______________________________________________
dispatch mailing list
dispatch@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch

 

--_000_BYAPR11MB2821D2C79CA40997C76DA6B8DDF30BYAPR11MB2821namp_-- From nobody Sun Mar 22 12:34:29 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FA7F3A08E2 for ; Sun, 22 Mar 2020 12:34:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.405 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.405 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS=0.274, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EUBiolmqBBja for ; Sun, 22 Mar 2020 12:34:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 238BB3A0886 for ; Sun, 22 Mar 2020 12:34:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mutabilis-2.local ([47.186.30.41]) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 02MJY6nQ043677 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Sun, 22 Mar 2020 14:34:07 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from mahoney@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1584905647; bh=KUtw5aioRh+QuisUcU6Xj5JtyxZUjIlktTqCUZCSmK8=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=Q++0Zm1A/01sSP06lTlogi10o4tRlmNYGNaquClqqfqR4M5kOvDo0wa9tJvm8wGcs iX20aHyUXITp4KbCv9lRmQVk+I/QyQ7M5WBsJdQk8yFJuKd8xDnDZc6KjII0ni/xZi KEnWGfljIKNhccfPrTpNfQbfBqGYMJHYH0lIr63w= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host [47.186.30.41] claimed to be mutabilis-2.local To: Ben Campbell , E Sam Cc: Patrick McManus , DISPATCH WG References: <82FA51DD-700A-4A7E-B943-61461E0B465C@nostrum.com> <2BD9B0A0-7995-42D0-9237-3E80CAB13D68@nostrum.com> From: "A. Jean Mahoney" Message-ID: Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2020 14:34:05 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <2BD9B0A0-7995-42D0-9237-3E80CAB13D68@nostrum.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] Volunteers Needed X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2020 19:34:23 -0000 I'll be one of the note takers. Jean On 3/21/20 3:32 PM, Ben Campbell wrote: > Thanks! > > For everyone else: We still need two more volunteers.We currently have a > tight agenda, and who knows what sort of technical issues might come up > when we start the actual meeting. Please help us get things rolling on > time by volunteering now. > > Thanks! > > Ben. > >> On Mar 19, 2020, at 6:06 PM, E Sam > > wrote: >> >> I can help. I can do note taking or Jabber, whatever you want. >> >> On Thu, Mar 19, 2020 at 6:55 PM Ben Campbell > > wrote: >> >> Hi DISPATCH people, >> >> Monday’s virtual meeting will be a grand experiment. I’d like to >> get volunteers for the following in advance, so we can minimize >> meeting startup time: >> >> 2 note takes to capture decisions and action items. >> >> 1 Jabber Scribe to take questions to the queue for anyone who is >> unable to use WebEx for voice. >> >> Thanks! >> >> Ben. >> _______________________________________________ >> dispatch mailing list >> dispatch@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch >> >> _______________________________________________ >> dispatch mailing list >> dispatch@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch > > > _______________________________________________ > dispatch mailing list > dispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch > From nobody Sun Mar 22 13:52:15 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A3E53A05A6; Sun, 22 Mar 2020 13:52:11 -0700 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by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F6613A0443; Sun, 22 Mar 2020 15:07:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.404 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.404 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS=0.274, MAY_BE_FORGED=0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NZKIy0dCi2ag; Sun, 22 Mar 2020 15:07:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 76E703A02BC; Sun, 22 Mar 2020 15:07:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.127.239] (mta-70-120-123-175.stx.rr.com [70.120.123.175] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 02MM7g7F019890 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Sun, 22 Mar 2020 17:07:43 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1584914864; bh=tmMvQjdjEHdcAElCjtLAvYzJCLd0PDemwpr5VTZr7wA=; h=From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References; b=mZyXn08orVDT/Hal7r2tUCHDk2qCph5lcVOVNB1/MtTbpiNj3t6bVf1E2ALa6jG1z bhHMM/NphBh7tYqXQInPtGngXfvi+uTPtN/gPh5zyiidvOlkgJ5n3T3KGd3wq2Osxk y1uQquXPmcfDHERLsbvf/awpK+ZzZpyZWFck8of0= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host mta-70-120-123-175.stx.rr.com [70.120.123.175] (may be forged) claimed to be [192.168.127.239] From: Ben Campbell Message-Id: <707ECB24-07D9-4672-9015-746F1AFDC51B@nostrum.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_9D84005A-3AC7-4688-8411-0158AA5FC560"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.60.0.2.5\)) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2020 17:07:36 -0500 In-Reply-To: Cc: ART ADs , Patrick McManus , DISPATCH WG To: "A. Jean Mahoney" , E Sam References: <82FA51DD-700A-4A7E-B943-61461E0B465C@nostrum.com> <2BD9B0A0-7995-42D0-9237-3E80CAB13D68@nostrum.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.60.0.2.5) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] Volunteers Needed X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2020 22:07:50 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_9D84005A-3AC7-4688-8411-0158AA5FC560 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Thanks, Jean! That=E2=80=99s two. Can we get one more for other note taker or jabber = scribe? Ben. > On Mar 22, 2020, at 2:34 PM, A. Jean Mahoney = wrote: >=20 > I'll be one of the note takers. >=20 > Jean >=20 > On 3/21/20 3:32 PM, Ben Campbell wrote: >> Thanks! >> For everyone else: We still need two more volunteers.We currently = have a tight agenda, and who knows what sort of technical issues might = come up when we start the actual meeting. Please help us get things = rolling on time by volunteering now. >> Thanks! >> Ben. >>> On Mar 19, 2020, at 6:06 PM, E Sam > wrote: >>>=20 >>> I can help. I can do note taking or Jabber, whatever you want. >>>=20 >>> On Thu, Mar 19, 2020 at 6:55 PM Ben Campbell > wrote: >>>=20 >>> Hi DISPATCH people, >>>=20 >>> Monday=E2=80=99s virtual meeting will be a grand experiment. = I=E2=80=99d like to >>> get volunteers for the following in advance, so we can minimize >>> meeting startup time: >>>=20 >>> 2 note takes to capture decisions and action items. >>>=20 >>> 1 Jabber Scribe to take questions to the queue for anyone who is >>> unable to use WebEx for voice. >>>=20 >>> Thanks! >>>=20 >>> Ben. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> dispatch mailing list >>> dispatch@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> dispatch mailing list >>> dispatch@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch >> _______________________________________________ >> dispatch mailing list >> dispatch@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch >=20 > _______________________________________________ > dispatch mailing list > dispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch --Apple-Mail=_9D84005A-3AC7-4688-8411-0158AA5FC560 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEExW9rpd7ez4DexOFOgFZKbJXz1A0FAl534agACgkQgFZKbJXz 1A3Q7BAAz4zTVyqhFSDUnmuM9Ig+auEOOpf4B27nY5PThTCXlJ4g+xO0Lz532jY4 6zo/hP7JolM9es+DQzFC7E8hNzyuWvJPbK4rGUHoIAryUkR5S76Sf2LwogmZM8u8 ddEJOPoIsWApfsLIu/AN0GHSb8opNozkRCIKi6IogJRcY96QIIqqJY3cFnDigKim BPac6UciV3JnBj6oNN5uudZeRx9id5PXfK8xhwby2Me5iBjE7lG9zGhaIOnypSLk 5qv12loha0E01s7V0vCQ440nz/RGWUXXHMX8qSdEsQwUzdtGK4Z6gQ7Jn523Eger a9Er4q+YOJPS6JCHUJTDT41BjkDjoOKpO1vz+pqQIlkeRRbtqhz3wsHjEm6+OQvs AwIAmE3XfMaw54p2PPdUz1MdmECStQI2t1saAkAYZUOhIuQgmi4CmQhoXwNKL3tT J/1ilZGYDT4nA4Jw5OhR88J9b1TkpTAGNy78VoVemT14cg6h9jvfuUQxXWyEo6KD yiu3U8SpwpyAUbHPK7w8Fe4y4VcFpXqWZwMrzhMDkqbJg7RRoszZtJZEXuNqZ0t0 1RurxaeXrrEg/e21vtH9Pk1i14aXrDU6HGKTBkYfhRFTm2/RQsMbVjG1aw40Svsk IeXSSQqnOQrK7iz73ASvrrlNrZOd41W6CBBonLjxROr48aJqEhE= =7zu3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_9D84005A-3AC7-4688-8411-0158AA5FC560-- From nobody Sun Mar 22 15:18:02 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B7E43A091C for ; 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boundary=548edb823d5a4063bc69dbfef8e5d8a2 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] Volunteers Needed X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2020 22:18:00 -0000 --548edb823d5a4063bc69dbfef8e5d8a2 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm happy to take notes. Cheers, Bron. On Mon, Mar 23, 2020, at 09:07, Ben Campbell wrote: > Thanks, Jean! >=20 > That=E2=80=99s two. Can we get one more for other note taker or jabber= scribe? >=20 > Ben. >=20 > > On Mar 22, 2020, at 2:34 PM, A. Jean Mahoney w= rote: > >=20 > > I'll be one of the note takers. > >=20 > > Jean > >=20 > > On 3/21/20 3:32 PM, Ben Campbell wrote: > >> Thanks! > >> For everyone else: We still need two more volunteers.We currently h= ave a tight agenda, and who knows what sort of technical issues might co= me up when we start the actual meeting. Please help us get things rollin= g on time by volunteering now. > >> Thanks! > >> Ben. > >>> On Mar 19, 2020, at 6:06 PM, E Sam > wrote: > >>>=20 > >>> I can help. I can do note taking or Jabber, whatever you want. > >>>=20 > >>> On Thu, Mar 19, 2020 at 6:55 PM Ben Campbell > wrote: > >>>=20 > >>> Hi DISPATCH people, > >>>=20 > >>> Monday=E2=80=99s virtual meeting will be a grand experiment. I=E2=80= =99d like to > >>> get volunteers for the following in advance, so we can minimize > >>> meeting startup time: > >>>=20 > >>> 2 note takes to capture decisions and action items. > >>>=20 > >>> 1 Jabber Scribe to take questions to the queue for anyone who is > >>> unable to use WebEx for voice. > >>>=20 > >>> Thanks! > >>>=20 > >>> Ben. > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> dispatch mailing list > >>> dispatch@ietf.org > >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch > >>>=20 > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> dispatch mailing list > >>> dispatch@ietf.org > >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch > >> _______________________________________________ > >> dispatch mailing list > >> dispatch@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch > >=20 > > _______________________________________________ > > dispatch mailing list > > dispatch@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > dispatch mailing list > dispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch >=20 >=20 > *Attachments:* > * signature.asc -- Bron Gondwana, CEO, Fastmail Pty Ltd brong@fastmailteam.com --548edb823d5a4063bc69dbfef8e5d8a2 Content-Type: text/html;charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I'm happy to take notes.

Cheers,
<= div style=3D"font-family:Arial;">
Bron.

On Mon, Mar 23, 2020, at 09:07, Ben Campbel= l wrote:
Thanks, Jean!=

That=E2=80=99s two. Can we get one more fo= r other note taker or jabber scribe?

Ben.

> On Mar 22, 2020, at 2:34 PM, A. Jean Ma= honey <mahoney@nostrum.com> wrote:
> 
> I'll be one of the note takers.
> 
> Jean
> 
> On 3/2= 1/20 3:32 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:
>> Thanks!
>> For everyone else: We still need two more volunteers.We = currently have a tight agenda, and who knows what sort of technical issu= es might come up when we start the actual meeting. Please help us get th= ings rolling on time by volunteering now.
>> Thanks!=
>> Ben.
>>> On Mar 19, 2020,= at 6:06 PM, E Sam <winshell64@gmail.com <mailto:winshell64@gmail.= com>> wrote:
>>> 
>&g= t;> I can help. I can do note taking or Jabber, whatever you want.
>>> 
>>> On Thu, Mar 19= , 2020 at 6:55 PM Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com <mailto:ben@nostru= m.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>= >>    Hi DISPATCH people,
>>>= ; 
>>>    Monday=E2=80=99s vi= rtual meeting will be a grand experiment. I=E2=80=99d like to
<= div>>>>    get volunteers for the following in a= dvance, so we can minimize
>>>    = meeting startup time:
>>> 
>= ;>>    2 note takes to capture decisions and action= items.
>>> 
>>> = ;   1 Jabber Scribe to take questions to the queue for anyone = who is
>>>    unable to use WebEx = for voice.
>>> 
>>>&n= bsp;   Thanks!
>>> 
= >>>    Ben.
>>> &nbs= p;  _______________________________________________
&= gt;>>    dispatch mailing list
>&g= t;>    dispatch@ietf.org <mailto:dispatch@ietf.org&= gt;
>>>    https://www.ietf.org/ma= ilman/listinfo/dispatch
>>> 
&= gt;>> _______________________________________________
>>> dispatch mailing list
>>> dispatch= @ietf.org <mailto:dispatch@ietf.org>
>>> ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
>> ____= ___________________________________________
>> dispa= tch mailing list
>> dispatch@ietf.org
= >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
&g= t; 
> ____________________________________________= ___
> dispatch mailing list
> dispatch= @ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispa= tch


________________________= _______________________
dispatch mailing list
dispatch@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/= dispatch


Attachments:=
  • signature.asc

--
<= div>  Bron Gondwana, CEO, Fastmail Pty Ltd
  bro= ng@fastmailteam.com


--548edb823d5a4063bc69dbfef8e5d8a2-- From nobody Sun Mar 22 17:49:33 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFFCB3A094A for ; Sun, 22 Mar 2020 17:49:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.403 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.403 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS=0.274, MAY_BE_FORGED=0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cdnx6qLqnZ_V for ; Sun, 22 Mar 2020 17:49:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 79D9D3A08EB for ; Sun, 22 Mar 2020 17:49:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.127.239] (mta-70-120-123-175.stx.rr.com [70.120.123.175] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 02N0nKfh048369 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Sun, 22 Mar 2020 19:49:21 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1584924562; bh=S8O2ZOlBbt07hxsZwmDWwCl59CNmIENQaddTRg7YhlI=; h=From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References; b=qUGj1VK3Y6JHAPLnmSUSKhxCIARRFVSKbMKzyQWoDm1W4XrhXb4Wd6L3pTuQ4EJ5a 8MQl25S1hxNu9kCqSdm3PIM0Z6SKmjzHRcriJQ8tfSpSFPWDHJmbYvnMmugFVlxkjN hQVqhknk7O767EykPQxpXtGT7qafM2djO96ODpEg= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host mta-70-120-123-175.stx.rr.com [70.120.123.175] (may be forged) claimed to be [192.168.127.239] From: Ben Campbell Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_EDFE03E2-5D4F-412C-B417-43A6DB0BA335"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.60.0.2.5\)) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2020 19:49:12 -0500 In-Reply-To: <38575bcd-d7a1-43bb-a3e3-4a2e733c22ba@dogfood.fastmail.com> Cc: DISPATCH WG , Patrick McManus To: Bron Gondwana , Jean Mahoney , E Sam References: <82FA51DD-700A-4A7E-B943-61461E0B465C@nostrum.com> <2BD9B0A0-7995-42D0-9237-3E80CAB13D68@nostrum.com> <707ECB24-07D9-4672-9015-746F1AFDC51B@nostrum.com> <38575bcd-d7a1-43bb-a3e3-4a2e733c22ba@dogfood.fastmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.60.0.2.5) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] Volunteers Needed X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 00:49:31 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_EDFE03E2-5D4F-412C-B417-43A6DB0BA335 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_3EEA7533-46F4-4656-9F4F-28D0628E6E99" --Apple-Mail=_3EEA7533-46F4-4656-9F4F-28D0628E6E99 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Thanks Bron, that makes three! Bron and Jean: Notes E Sam (Sorry, I haven=E2=80=99t seen your real-world name go by): Jabber = scribe. Bron and Jean: For notes, we mainly need decisions and action items, or = whatever else you find notable. E Sam, for jabber scribe, we just need = someone to watch for questions on in the chat room, and and joining the = discussion queue to relay those to the voice conference. Thanks! Ben. > On Mar 22, 2020, at 5:18 PM, Bron Gondwana = wrote: >=20 > I'm happy to take notes. >=20 > Cheers, >=20 > Bron. >=20 > On Mon, Mar 23, 2020, at 09:07, Ben Campbell wrote: >> Thanks, Jean! >>=20 >> That=E2=80=99s two. Can we get one more for other note taker or = jabber scribe? >>=20 >> Ben. >>=20 >> > On Mar 22, 2020, at 2:34 PM, A. Jean Mahoney = wrote: >> > >> > I'll be one of the note takers. >> > >> > Jean >> > >> > On 3/21/20 3:32 PM, Ben Campbell wrote: >> >> Thanks! >> >> For everyone else: We still need two more volunteers.We currently = have a tight agenda, and who knows what sort of technical issues might = come up when we start the actual meeting. Please help us get things = rolling on time by volunteering now. >> >> Thanks! >> >> Ben. >> >>> On Mar 19, 2020, at 6:06 PM, E Sam > wrote: >> >>> >> >>> I can help. I can do note taking or Jabber, whatever you want. >> >>> >> >>> On Thu, Mar 19, 2020 at 6:55 PM Ben Campbell > wrote: >> >>> >> >>> Hi DISPATCH people, >> >>> >> >>> Monday=E2=80=99s virtual meeting will be a grand experiment. = I=E2=80=99d like to >> >>> get volunteers for the following in advance, so we can = minimize >> >>> meeting startup time: >> >>> >> >>> 2 note takes to capture decisions and action items. >> >>> >> >>> 1 Jabber Scribe to take questions to the queue for anyone who = is >> >>> unable to use WebEx for voice. >> >>> >> >>> Thanks! >> >>> >> >>> Ben. >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> dispatch mailing list >> >>> dispatch@ietf.org >> >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> dispatch mailing list >> >>> dispatch@ietf.org >> >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> dispatch mailing list >> >> dispatch@ietf.org >> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > dispatch mailing list >> > dispatch@ietf.org >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch >>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> dispatch mailing list >> dispatch@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch >>=20 >>=20 >> Attachments: >> signature.asc >=20 > -- > Bron Gondwana, CEO, Fastmail Pty Ltd > brong@fastmailteam.com >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > dispatch mailing list > dispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch = --Apple-Mail=_3EEA7533-46F4-4656-9F4F-28D0628E6E99 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Thanks Bron, that makes three!

Bron and Jean: Notes
E Sam (Sorry, I haven=E2=80=99t seen your real-world name go = by): Jabber scribe.

Bron and Jean: For notes, we mainly need decisions and action = items, or whatever else you find notable. E Sam, for jabber scribe, we = just need someone to watch for questions on in the chat room, and and =  joining the discussion queue to relay those to the voice = conference.

Thanks!

Ben.

On Mar 22, 2020, at 5:18 PM, = Bron Gondwana <brong@fastmailteam.com> wrote:

I'm happy to take = notes.

Cheers,

Bron.

On Mon, Mar 23, 2020, at 09:07, Ben Campbell wrote:
Thanks, Jean!

That=E2=80=99s two. Can we get one more = for other note taker or jabber scribe?

Ben.

>= On Mar 22, 2020, at 2:34 PM, A. Jean Mahoney <mahoney@nostrum.com>= wrote:
> 
> I'll be one of the note takers.
> 
> Jean
> 
> On 3/21/20 3:32 PM, Ben Campbell = wrote:
>> Thanks!
>> For everyone else: We still = need two more volunteers.We currently have a tight agenda, and who knows = what sort of technical issues might come up when we start the actual = meeting. Please help us get things rolling on time by volunteering = now.
>> Thanks!
>> Ben.
>>> On Mar 19, 2020, at 6:06 PM, E Sam <winshell64@gmail.com = <mailto:winshell64@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I can help. I can do note = taking or Jabber, whatever you want.
>>> 
>>> On Thu, Mar 19, 2020 at 6:55 PM Ben Campbell = <ben@nostrum.com = <mailto:ben@nostrum.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>    Hi = DISPATCH people,
>>> 
>>>    = Monday=E2=80=99s virtual meeting will be a grand experiment. I=E2=80=99d = like to
>>>   = get volunteers for the following in advance, so we can minimize
>>>    meeting = startup time:
>>> 
>>>    2 note = takes to capture decisions and action items.
>>> 
>>>    1 Jabber Scribe to take = questions to the queue for anyone who is
>>>    unable to use WebEx for = voice.
>>> 
>>>    = Thanks!
>>> 
>>>    Ben.
>>>    = _______________________________________________
>>>    dispatch mailing list
>>>    dispatch@ietf.org = <mailto:dispatch@ietf.org>
>>>    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
>>> 
>>> = _______________________________________________
>>> dispatch mailing list
>>> dispatch@ietf.org <mailto:dispatch@ietf.org>
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
>> = _______________________________________________
>> dispatch mailing list
>> dispatch@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
> 
> _______________________________________________
> dispatch mailing list
> dispatch@ietf.org
>= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch


_______________________________________________
dispatch mailing list
dispatch@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch


Attachments:
  • signature.asc

--
  Bron Gondwana, CEO, Fastmail Pty Ltd
  brong@fastmailteam.com


_______________________________________________
dispatch mailing list
dispatch@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch

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Mon, 23 Mar 2020 04:23:44 +0000 From: "Sreekanth Narayanan (sreenara)" To: Christer Holmberg , "Ben Campbell" , "dispatch@ietf.org" CC: "Kaustubh Inamdar (kinamdar)" , "dispatch-chairs@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [dispatch] PROPOSED CHARTER FOR ASAP (Automatic SIP trunking And Peering) Thread-Index: AQHV7fJsGco3tkiq3Ey8OuVoB7iPT6hD+imAgAF/nACADiqZAIAAZF+AgABIJGSAAIy5gIAADBmjgABzaYCAAFwopQ== Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 04:23:43 +0000 Message-ID: References: <73852274-8033-4864-94AC-AAC149A9E4E0@nostrum.com> <77C1ACC4-D5CA-4A27-8507-580304CC4655@nostrum.com> <2844E7A0-171E-41CA-B08E-55CADEE48BB0@nostrum.com> , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=sreenara@cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [72.163.220.2] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: eab6a837-328a-4c5b-8334-08d7cee1f947 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BYAPR11MB3240: x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:9508; 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boundary="_000_BYAPR11MB28215BFFF75D7AD40D6E849BDDF00BYAPR11MB2821namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: eab6a837-328a-4c5b-8334-08d7cee1f947 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 23 Mar 2020 04:23:44.0212 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: /oW5G7Ag/X5JNIudenn1Ur42GTtYjA2cfod6HkW7MUUTVG2lViOARzcAuhjWnrkAZmp61snNd4n1CuYc9C8G9A== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BYAPR11MB3240 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.12, xch-rcd-002.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-9.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] PROPOSED CHARTER FOR ASAP (Automatic SIP trunking And Peering) X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 04:23:52 -0000 --_000_BYAPR11MB28215BFFF75D7AD40D6E849BDDF00BYAPR11MB2821namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Christer, > >The SBC isn=92t required to modify the capability set - it simply source= s the HTTPS GET and parses the response. In what scenario would the SBC req= uire to modify the capabilities? >Assume you e.g., have some kind of transit network, which may limit the ca= pabilities. The capability set is provided by the ITSP that the enterprise trunk(s) reg= isters to. Therefore, the ITSP that provided the capability set is expected= to be the one that directly peers with the enterprise network. If however,= in the event there is an intermediary, the ITSP that generates the capabil= ity set must include the caps of the network that directly peers with the e= nterprise, which in this case is the intermediary (after all, SIP trunk reg= istration and call sending and receiving will be directly between the inter= mediary and the enterprise). This aspect will be discussed in the draft... Regards Sreekanth ________________________________ From: Christer Holmberg Sent: Monday, March 23, 2020 2:22 AM To: Sreekanth Narayanan (sreenara) ; Ben Campbell ; dispatch@ietf.org Cc: Kaustubh Inamdar (kinamdar) ; dispatch-chairs@ietf.= org Subject: Re: [dispatch] PROPOSED CHARTER FOR ASAP (Automatic SIP trunking A= nd Peering) Hi, >> Having to exchange capabilities before the registration/session is estab= lished is a concrete justification. Please explain that in the proposed cha= rter, >> because that would probably be one of the >most important inputs for thi= s work :) > > We can accommodate this in the charter. Thanks! >> Regarding SBCs, one of the issues by using a non-SIP mechanism is that S= BCs won=92t be able to modify the capabilities =96 unless you intend to rou= te the HTTPS traffic through the SBCs too. >> Perhaps there won=92t be any such intermediaries in the use-cases you ha= ve in mind, but we should discuss whether we are ok with that. My point is = that, before we discuss protocol details, we >> should be clear about what functionality, and what use-cases, we want to= support. > >The SBC isn=92t required to modify the capability set - it simply sources = the HTTPS GET and parses the response. In what scenario would the SBC requi= re to modify the capabilities? Assume you e.g., have some kind of transit network, which may limit the cap= abilities. Regards, Christer ________________________________ From: Christer Holmberg Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2020 6:45 PM To: Sreekanth Narayanan (sreenara) ; Ben Campbell ; dispatch@ietf.org Cc: Kaustubh Inamdar (kinamdar) ; dispatch-chairs@ietf.= org Subject: Re: [dispatch] PROPOSED CHARTER FOR ASAP (Automatic SIP trunking A= nd Peering) Hi, >What are the SIP-based mechanisms you have in mind? If there are more than= one, I assume the exchange of OPTIONS/200OK (with cap set in the body of t= he response) is one of them. Yes. Most mechanisms can also be used with non-OPTION methods. >Theoretically, while it is possible to leverage something like SIP OPTIONS= , SIP trunking deployment realities between enterprise and service provider= networks >require the trunk to first be registered (SIP REGISTER/200OK) before any S= IP traffic can be exchanged between the two networks, for example, an OPTIO= NS >or even an INVITE to setup calls. Having to exchange capabilities before the registration/session is establis= hed is a concrete justification. Please explain that in the proposed charte= r, because that would probably be one of the most important inputs for this= work :) >To that end, for a SIP-based solution to work, the service provider ought = to change this behaviour, why would that method be advocated when there >is an alternative? While this entire framework attempts to ease SIP trunki= ng between enterprise and service provider networks, why must the framework >use SIP? Why not HTTPS? Is is purely because this framework is related to = "SIP" trunking? > > What are the advantages of using SIP over HTTPS in this specific scenario= ? > What is the barrier to deployment of a SIP-based method as opposed to a H= TTPS based method? I suspect the former is more difficult. I am not saying it must use SIP =96 I am asking for a justification why HTT= PS would be more feasible than SIP. If we are going to use a non-SIP protoc= ol for exchanging SIP capabilities I think it is important for people to kn= ow why we want to use a non-SIP protocol. >Here are some of the advantages for HTTPS: > >The service providers need only deploy HTTPS servers accessible over the I= nternet so that the enterprise can obtain a capability set. >There is no change on the part of the service provider in terms of how the= y handle SIP.. >There is also very little change required on part of enterprise SBC vendor= s. Almost all SBCs today support HTTPS, XML & YANG. >I would like to reiterate that using HTTPS in this context doesn't in any = way mean that this is the new "normal" for soliciting and obtaining a remot= e SIP peers capability - the OPTIONS method >was designed for that. This is= A scenario for which HTTPS is conducive and has nothing to do with creatin= g a new way of communicating capabilities. Regarding SBCs, one of the issues by using a non-SIP mechanism is that SBCs= won=92t be able to modify the capabilities =96 unless you intend to route = the HTTPS traffic through the SBCs too. Perhaps there won=92t be any such intermediaries in the use-cases you have = in mind, but we should discuss whether we are ok with that. My point is tha= t, before we discuss protocol details, we should be clear about what functi= onality, and what use-cases, we want to support. Thanks! Regards, Christer ________________________________ From: Christer Holmberg Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2020 6:03 AM To: Ben Campbell ; dispatch@ietf.org Cc: Sreekanth Narayanan (sreenara) ; Kaustubh Inamdar (= kinamdar) ; dispatch-chairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [dispatch] PROPOSED CHARTER FOR ASAP (Automatic SIP trunking A= nd Peering) Hi, AFAIK, the authors of the proposed charter didn=92t reply to my latest comm= ents (which I sent twice). They may have tried to address them in the lates= t version of the proposed charter, but I think it would have been useful to= have a discussion on the list. I think my main issue was describing why the existing SIP capability exchan= ge mechanisms cannot be used. The proposed charter now says: >1. While there are extensions to baseline SIP that could potentially allow= a capability set to be communicated from the service provider to the enter= prise network, >none of these extensions are readily usable to achieve the objective of th= is work. This doesn=92t say much. It would be useful with some text on why none of t= he extensions are readily usable. >2. Any modifications to existing SIP-based extensions to fit the objective= of this work would require equipment manufacturers to upgrade their SIP st= acks. This would also need more justification, because doesn=92t SIP extensions i= n general require upgrading of SIP stacks? Regards, Christer From: dispatch on behalf of Ben Campbell Date: Saturday, 21 March 2020 at 22.35 To: "dispatch@ietf.org" Cc: "Sreekanth Narayanan (sreenara)" , "Kaustubh Inamdar (kinamdar)" , "dispatch-chairs@iet= f.org" Subject: Re: [dispatch] PROPOSED CHARTER FOR ASAP (Automatic SIP trunking A= nd Peering) Hi Everyone, Gonzalo S. wins the chair-appreciation award for being the first to respond= to a chair request for input :-) Anyone else? We will have a tight agenda on Monday; any chance we could clo= se this topic prior to the meeting? On Mar 12, 2020, at 3:14 PM, Ben Campbell > wrote: Hi Again Everyone, I know people have been more caught up in how we handle the cancelation of = the IETF107 in-person meeting than in day to day DISPATCH email. One way we= can handle that is to complete discussions on list rather than taking meet= ing time. This seems like a good candidate for that. Thanks! Ben. On Mar 11, 2020, at 4:21 PM, Ben Campbell > wrote: Hi Everyone, The proponents have gone through a few revisions of the proposed charter (b= elow) based on list feedback. At this point, we=92d like to call the questi= ons on what to recommend to to the ART ADs. Please respond to the following= questions: 1. Is the topic described suitable for a reasonably short-lived mini-workin= g group, without requiring a separate BoF first? 2. Is the charter a good starting point from which to develop a final chart= er (through the usual charter review process for new working groups) 3. Would you participate in a working group with a charter substantially si= milar to this one? Note that we have agenda time allocated for this on an upcoming virtual mee= ting (details TBD), but if we can close these questions via email, we can g= ive that time back to other things. Thanks! Ben. On Feb 27, 2020, at 10:56 PM, Sreekanth Narayanan (sreenara) > w= rote: All, Here are the revisions to the proposed charter of ASAP (Automatic SIP trunk= ing And Peering) after incorporating the latest comments. Suggestions/comme= nts are welcome. The deployment of a Session Initiation Protocol (SIP)-based infrastructure = in enterprise and service provider communication networks is increasing at = a rapid pace. Consequently, direct IP peering between enterprise and servic= e provider networks is quickly replacing traditional methods of interconnec= tion between enterprise and service provider networks. Currently published standards provide a strong foundation over which direct= IP peering can be realized. However, given the sheer number of these stand= ards, it is often not clear which behavioural subsets, extensions to baseli= ne protocols and operating principles ought to be configured by the enterpr= ise network administrator to ensure successful peering with a SIP service p= rovider network. This lack of context often leads to interoperability issue= s between enterprise and service provider SIP networks resulting in a large= number of support cases being opened with enterprise equipment manufacture= rs and SIP service providers. Subsequently, deployment times for SIP trunki= ng between enterprise and service provider networks increase significantly. This work would define a descriptive capability set, which is populated by = a SIP service provider, and which, when communicated to an enterprise netwo= rk, provides the enterprise network with sufficient information to setup SI= P trunking with the SIP service provider. Such a capability set would not o= nly result in SIP trunking deployment times being drastically scaled down, = but also would result in a significant decrease in interoperability issues = between enterprise and service provider network. Over the long run, operati= onal costs for service providers and enterprise equipment manufactures woul= d likely decrease as a result of fewer support cases. This work would make use of HTTPS based framework that allows a SIP service= provider to offload a detailed capability set to the enterprise network. H= TTPS is used in favor of SIP for the following reasons: 1. While there are extensions to baseline SIP that could potentially allow = a capability set to be communicated from the service provider to the enterp= rise network, none of these extensions are readily usable to achieve the ob= jective of this work. 2. Any modifications to existing SIP-based extensions to fit the objective = of this work would require equipment manufacturers to upgrade their SIP sta= cks. The scope of activity includes: * Define a robust capability set which encapsulates sufficient information = to ensure smooth IP peering between enterprise and service provider SIP net= works. * Define a data model for the capability set. * Extensibility of the data model to allow proprietary parameters to be enc= oded. * A HTTPS-based transport mechanism using which the capability set is commu= nicated from the service provider network to the enterprise network. * A mechanism to discover the capability server hosted in the SIP service p= rovider network The following is out of scope: * Extensions to SIP that enable an enterprise network to solicit and obtain= a descriptive capability set from a SIP service provider. * A workflow/mechanism that allows service providers to directly configure = devices in the enterprise network. The group will produce * Requirements, Use Cases and Architecture draft. * Specification for SIP Auto Peer. This group will co-ordinate with the SIP core workgroup and the SIPConnect = efforts carried out by the SIP Forum. Milestones: Send protocol specification to IESG _______________________________________________ dispatch mailing list dispatch@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch _______________________________________________ dispatch mailing list dispatch@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch --_000_BYAPR11MB28215BFFF75D7AD40D6E849BDDF00BYAPR11MB2821namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Christer,

> >The SBC isn=92t required to modify the capability set - it simply sources the HTTPS GET and parses the response. In what scenario would the SBC require to modify the capabilities?

 <= /p>

>Assume you e.g., have some kind of transit network, which may limit th= e capabilities.


The ca= pability set is provided by the ITSP that the enterprise trunk(s) registers= to. Therefore, the ITSP that provided the capability set is expected to be the one that directly peers with the = enterprise network. If however, in the event there is an intermediary, the = ITSP that generates the capability set must include the caps of the network= that directly peers with the enterprise, which in this case is the intermediary (after all, SIP trunk registration = and call sending and receiving will be directly between the intermediary an= d the enterprise). This aspect will be discussed in the draft...

Regards
Sreekanth

From: Christer Holmberg &= lt;christer.holmberg=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Sent: Monday, March 23, 2020 2:22 AM
To: Sreekanth Narayanan (sreenara) <sreenara@cisco.com>; Ben C= ampbell <ben@nostrum.com>; dispatch@ietf.org <dispatch@ietf.org>= ;
Cc: Kaustubh Inamdar (kinamdar) <kinamdar@cisco.com>; dispatch= -chairs@ietf.org <dispatch-chairs@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [dispatch] PROPOSED CHARTER FOR ASAP (Automatic SIP tru= nking And Peering)
 

Hi,

 

>> Having to exchange capabilities before the registration/session is establis= hed is a concrete justification. Please explain that in the proposed charte= r,

>> because that w= ould probably be one of the >most important inputs for this work :)

>= ; 

>= ; We can accommodate this in the charter.

 

Thanks!

 = ;

>> Regarding SBCs= , one of the issues by using a non-SIP mechanism is that SBCs won=92t be ab= le to modify the capabilities =96 unless you intend to route the HTTPS traf= fic through the SBCs too.

>> Perhaps there = won=92t be any such intermediaries in the use-cases you have in mind, but w= e should discuss whether we are ok with that. My point is that, before we d= iscuss protocol details, we

>> should be clea= r about what functionality, and what use-cases, we want to support.<= /span>

>= ; 

>= ;The SBC isn=92t required to modify the capabil= ity set - it simply sources the HTTPS GET and parses the response. In what scenario would the SBC require to modify the capabilities?

 

Ass= ume you e.g., have some kind of transit network, which may limit the capabi= lities.

&nb= sp;

Reg= ards,

&nb= sp;

Chr= ister

&nb= sp;

 

 

 

From:= Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org>= ;
Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2020 6:45 PM
To: Sreekanth Narayanan (sreenara) <sreenara@cisco.com>; Ben C= ampbell <ben@nostrum.com>; dispatch@ietf.org <dispatch@ietf.org>= ;
Cc: Kaustubh Inamdar (kinamdar) <kinamdar@cisco.com>; dispatch= -chairs@ietf.org <dispatch-chairs@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [dispatch] PROPOSED CHARTER FOR ASAP (Automatic SIP tru= nking And Peering)

 

Hi,

 = ;

>= ;What are the SIP-based mechanisms you have in = mind? If there are more than one, I assume the exchange of OPTIONS/200OK= (with cap set in the body of the response) is one of them.

 

Yes. Most mechanisms can also be used with non-OPTION = methods.

 

>= ;Theoretically, while it is possible to leverag= e something like SIP OPTIONS, SIP trunking deployment realities between ent= erprise and service provider networks

>require the trunk to first be reg= istered (SIP REGISTER/200OK) before any SIP traffic can be exchanged betwee= n the two networks, for example, an OPTIONS

>or even an INVITE to setup calls.

 

Having to exchange capabilities before the registratio= n/session is established is a concrete justification. Please explain that i= n the proposed charter, because that would probably be one of the most impo= rtant inputs for this work :)

 

>= ;To that end, for a SIP-based solution to work,= the service provider ought to change this behaviour, why would that method= be advocated when there

>is an alternative? While this ent= ire framework attempts to ease SIP trunking between enterprise and service = provider networks, why must the framework

>u= se SIP? Why not HTTPS? Is is purely because this framework is related to &q= uot;SIP" trunking?

> <= /p>

> What are the advantages of using SIP over HTTPS in this spe= cific scenario?

> What is the barrier to deployment of a SIP-based method as = opposed to a HTTPS based method? I suspect the former is more difficult.

 

I am not saying it must use SIP =96 I am asking for a = justification why HTTPS would be more feasible than SIP. If we are going to= use a non-SIP protocol for exchanging SIP capabilities I think it is impor= tant for people to know why we want to use a non-SIP protocol.

 

>= ;Here are some of the advantages for HTTPS:

>= ; 

>= ;The service providers need only deploy HTTPS s= ervers accessible over the Internet so that the enterprise can obtain a cap= ability set.

>There is no change on the part of= the service provider in terms of how they handle SIP..

>= ;There is also very little change required on p= art of enterprise SBC vendors. Almost all SBCs today support HTTPS, XML & YANG.

>= ;I would like to reiterate that using HTTPS in = this context doesn't in any way mean that this is the new "normal"= ; for soliciting and obtaining a remote SIP peers capability - the OPTIONS method >was designed f= or that.  

Regarding SBCs, one of the issues by using a non-SIP m= echanism is that SBCs won=92t be able to modify the capabilities =96 unless= you intend to route the HTTPS traffic through the SBCs too.

Perhaps there won=92t be any such intermediaries in th= e use-cases you have in mind, but we should discuss whether we are ok with = that. My point is that, before we discuss protocol details, we should be cl= ear about what functionality, and what use-cases, we want to support.

 

Thanks!

 

Regards,

 

Christer

 

 

 

From:= Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org>= ;
Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2020 6:03 AM
To: Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>; dispatch@ietf.org <disp= atch@ietf.org>
Cc: Sreekanth Narayanan (sreenara) <sreenara@cisco.com>; Kaust= ubh Inamdar (kinamdar) <kinamdar@cisco.com>; dispatch-chairs@ietf.org= <dispatch-chairs@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [dispatch] PROPOSED CHARTER FOR ASAP (Automatic SIP tru= nking And Peering)

 

Hi,

 

AFAIK, the authors of the proposed charter didn=92t re= ply to my latest comments (which I sent twice). They may have tried to addr= ess them in the latest version of the proposed charter, but I think it woul= d have been useful to have a discussion on the list.

 

I think my main issue was describing why the existing = SIP capability exchange mechanisms cannot be used.

 

The proposed charter now says:

 

>1. While there are extensions to baseline SIP that= could potentially allow a capability set to be communicated from the servi= ce provider to the enterprise network,

>none of these extensions are readily usable to ach= ieve the objective of this work.

 

This doesn=92t say much. It would be useful with some = text on why none of the extensions are readily usable.

 

>2. Any modifications to existing SIP-based extensi= ons to fit the objective of this work would require equipment manufacturers= to upgrade their SIP stacks.

 

This would also need more justification, because doesn= =92t SIP extensions in general require upgrading of SIP stacks?

 

Regards,

 

Christer

 

 

 

From: dispatch <dispatch-bounces@ietf.org= > on behalf of Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>
Date: Saturday, 21 March 2020 at 22.35
To: "dispatch@ietf.org" <dispatch@ietf.org>
Cc: "Sreekanth Narayanan (sreenara)" <sreenara=3D40cisc= o.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "Kaustubh Inamdar (kinamdar)" <kinam= dar@cisco.com>, "dispatch-chairs@ietf.org" <dispatch-chairs= @ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [dispatch] PROPOSED CHARTER FOR ASAP (Automatic SIP tru= nking And Peering)

 

Hi Everyone,

 

Gonzalo S. wins the chair-appreciation award for being the first to respond= to a chair request for input :-) 

 

Anyone else? We will have a tight agenda on Monday; any chance we could clo= se this topic prior to the meeting?

 

On Mar 12, 2020, at 3:14 PM, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com> wrote:

 

Hi Again Everyone,

 

I know people have been more caught up in how we handle the cancelation of = the IETF107 in-person meeting than in day to day DISPATCH email. One way we= can handle that is to complete discussions on list rather than taking meet= ing time. This seems like a good candidate for that.

 

Thanks!

 

Ben.

 

On Mar 11, 2020, at 4:21 PM, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com> wrote:

 

Hi Everyone,

 

The proponents have gone through a few revisions of the proposed charter (b= elow) based on list feedback. At this point, we=92d like to call the questi= ons on what to recommend to to the ART ADs. Please respond to the following= questions:

 

1. Is the topic described suitable for a reasonably short-lived mini-workin= g group, without requiring a separate BoF first?

 

2. Is the charter a good starting point from which to develop a final chart= er (through the usual charter review process for new working groups)

 

3. Would you participate in a working group with a charter substantially si= milar to this one?

 

Note that we have agenda time allocated for this on an upcoming virtual mee= ting (details TBD), but if we can close these questions via email, we can g= ive that time back to other things.

 

Thanks!

 

Ben.

 

On Feb 27, 2020, at 10:56 PM, Sreekanth Narayanan (sreenara) <sreenara=3D40cisco.com@dmarc= ...ietf.org> wrote:

 

All,

 

Here are the revis= ions to the proposed charter of ASAP (Automatic SIP trunking And Peering) a= fter incorporating the latest comments. Suggestions/comments are welcome.

 

 

The deployment of = a Session Initiation Protocol (SIP)-based infrastructure in enterprise and = service provider communication networks is increasing at a rapid pace. Cons= equently, direct IP peering between enterprise and service provider networks is quickly replacing traditional methods of = interconnection between enterprise and service provider networks.

 

Currently publishe= d standards provide a strong foundation over which direct IP peering can be= realized. However, given the sheer number of these standards, it is often = not clear which behavioural subsets, extensions to baseline protocols and operating principles ought to be configured by t= he enterprise network administrator to ensure successful peering with a SIP= service provider network. This lack of context often leads to interoperabi= lity issues between enterprise and service provider SIP networks resulting in a large number of support cases= being opened with enterprise equipment manufacturers and SIP service provi= ders. Subsequently, deployment times for SIP trunking between enterprise an= d service provider networks increase significantly.

 

This work would de= fine a descriptive capability set, which is populated by a SIP service prov= ider, and which, when communicated to an enterprise network, provides the e= nterprise network with sufficient information to setup SIP trunking with the SIP service provider. Such a capability set= would not only result in SIP trunking deployment times being drastically s= caled down, but also would result in a significant decrease in interoperabi= lity issues between enterprise and service provider network. Over the long run, operational costs for service= providers and enterprise equipment manufactures would likely decrease as a= result of fewer support cases.

 

This work would ma= ke use of HTTPS based framework that allows a SIP service provider to offlo= ad a detailed capability set to the enterprise network. HTTPS is used in fa= vor of SIP for the following reasons:

1. While there are= extensions to baseline SIP that could potentially allow a capability set t= o be communicated from the service provider to the enterprise network, none= of these extensions are readily usable to achieve the objective of this work.

2. Any modificatio= ns to existing SIP-based extensions to fit the objective of this work would= require equipment manufacturers to upgrade their SIP stacks.

 

The scope of activ= ity includes:

 

* Define a robust = capability set which encapsulates sufficient information to ensure smooth I= P peering between enterprise and service provider SIP networks.

* Define a data mo= del for the capability set.

* Extensibility of= the data model to allow proprietary parameters to be encoded.

* A HTTPS-based tr= ansport mechanism using which the capability set is communicated from the s= ervice provider network to the enterprise network.

* A mechanism to d= iscover the capability server hosted in the SIP service provider network

 

The following is o= ut of scope:

* Extensions to SI= P that enable an enterprise network to solicit and obtain a descriptive cap= ability set from a SIP service provider.

* A workflow/mecha= nism that allows service providers to directly configure devices in the ent= erprise network.

 

The group will pro= duce

* Requirements, Us= e Cases and Architecture draft.

* Specification fo= r SIP Auto Peer.

 

This group will co= -ordinate with the SIP core workgroup and the SIPConnect efforts carried ou= t by the SIP Forum.

 

Milestones:=

<Date TBD> S= end protocol specification to IESG

 

____________________= ___________________________
dispatch mailing list
dispatch@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/= listinfo/dispatch

 

 

 

_______________________________________________
dispatch mailing list
dispatch@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch

 

--_000_BYAPR11MB28215BFFF75D7AD40D6E849BDDF00BYAPR11MB2821namp_-- From nobody Mon Mar 23 04:50:33 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 076A33A02C1 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2020 04:50:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7vjKQvpmSGuF for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2020 04:50:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mork.alvestrand.no (mork.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.117]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E59173A02BE for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2020 04:50:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.3.208] (unknown [82.194.207.93]) by mork.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 36B637C5307 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2020 12:50:26 +0100 (CET) From: Harald Alvestrand To: dispatch@ietf.org Message-ID: <7b8fafc9-9ea3-6180-8827-5d06b1930f18@alvestrand.no> Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 12:50:25 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: [dispatch] draft-storey-smtp-client-id-08.txt - privacy considerations X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 11:50:31 -0000 I've scanned this draft: draft-storey-smtp-client-id-08.txt 9.  Security Considerations    As this extension provides an additional means of communicating    information from a client to a server it is clear there is additional    information divulged to the server.  This may have privacy    considerations depending on the client identity type or its contents.    For example, it may reveal a MAC address of the device used to    communicate with a server that would not previously have been    revealed.  While it has been useful to use identifier such as email    address for authentication it is easy for these authetication tokens    to be shared and/or reused and/or be publically available for other    purposes.  An SMTP server and or its operators SHOULD not share    any CLIENTID information presented with a third party as it may    represent or be linked to an individual and SHOULD never be shared in    association with authentication tokens. Together with this section:    Some examples of identity type might be UUID, LICENSE,    DEVICE_ID, MAC and/or COOKIE.  It is expected that the most common    types might be related to distinct UUID, LICENSEKEY, or HARDWAREID.    2. LICENSE       An SMTP client may find it useful to identify the license key of       software it is using.  Such licenses are typically crafted such       that they are unique and useful to identify a software       installation.  This is more normally suited for a software       designed for a single-user.  While LICENSE could be standard type       again, it might more more helpful to specify a vendor specific       type such as BBLICENSEKEY.    3. DEVICE_ID       Many hardware devices are designed to be used by a single       individual and already have an associated hardware device id.       While a standard type might be defined, it also might be more       helpful to use a vendor specific type, such as ATOM-DEVICEID.    4. MAC       The MAC address traditionally was used as a worldwide identifier       both of the unique device, as well as it's vendor and product       category, however this is not always the case anymore, in the case       of it's usage in 'virtual' devices.  But for many hardware devices       which are required to access a defined SMTP resource, the MAC       address may still be a simple unique identifier.  MAC should NOT       be used, unless this is a MAC address that can be associated to a       vendor using standard MAC registration information as defined or       set by the IEEE Standards Association and is meant to represent a       unique device. I will note that all these categories reveal privacy sensitive information. My preference would be that the draft take a strong stance that the CLIENTID MUST NOT reveal information that can be cross-correlated with any other persionally identifiable information (we have the authorized identity for that, thank you very much); if suggestions are to remain in the draft that indicate that CLIENTID may be used to reveal personally sensitive information, the Security Considerations need to spell this out, and describe what mechanisms (such as client verifying the certificate of the server in STARTTLS and using CLIENTID only with servers with which one has a preexisting trust relationshiop) are used to safeguard such information against harvesting. (I remain doubtful about the usefulness of the extension. This critique is not to be perceived as any form of endorsement of the rest of the document.) Harald From nobody Mon Mar 23 05:17:39 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B74073A040B for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2020 05:17:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WQJjGFO7pmQh for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2020 05:17:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mork.alvestrand.no (mork.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.117]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7D91D3A0745 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2020 05:17:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.3.208] (unknown [82.194.207.93]) by mork.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E5E347C5307 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2020 13:17:33 +0100 (CET) To: dispatch@ietf.org From: Harald Alvestrand Message-ID: <5ca90730-c524-8616-2f36-00e2586a8b2c@alvestrand.no> Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 13:17:33 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: [dispatch] Client ID in IMAP X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 12:17:37 -0000 After reading through this document, I have just one question: Why, when adding a mechanism to extend the authentication mechanism in IMAP, isn't this an extension to the authentication mechanism rather than an extension to the base protocol? From nobody Mon Mar 23 05:37:06 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 362A43A0862 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2020 05:36:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fastmail.fm header.b=M+5uagX5; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=2cm3qHhp Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gAyQUWsQLUi1 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2020 05:36:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wout1-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout1-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.24]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B0B723A081E for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2020 05:36:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A4313BD; Mon, 23 Mar 2020 08:36:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imap21 ([10.202.2.71]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 23 Mar 2020 08:36:46 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fastmail.fm; h= mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:from:to :subject:content-type; s=fm2; bh=KyruJROjSzaEWAEewmSxGbwRr9TG12J DvzRL0X2MvdU=; b=M+5uagX5xSAVAl8jzH6BiAnQ+ABv7LKmj/jVtXlkjkgBqPs mG+0PlvuVl6W1d1i10H11AWippIAHtMVeJDjQHnfuWGNWmG2ILcHGKtTuoZQJcRk XTPxBFPvoOjjBMKDZUblA3j/dwpsof1zUuiv2Xfj0jSCWh4g84C60/fa+6OLHtjM s/y0P1YrhdBtfNxCgbyUoU1Zq7axSoK+Out68Kkwr440cRaDybeRltoeqVzjQKlS +iv5MkgOypVdfm9iaZoOROl/+srWMDGUtx4WEVb/ZRecUMNb6GhSiAhLuZ7p/2qt 2K2MUEV+OMfWTG3FZTjt+x6GHUmfcbxQjJx3bMA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=KyruJR OjSzaEWAEewmSxGbwRr9TG12JDvzRL0X2MvdU=; b=2cm3qHhpCM0b2Ooki3ilIz 2pMC2Ihh2sNj++8HCcZAvOIKp3C7ZueaAUuCWRSz3eIynBmDA6yE85kY04Pruh5+ 0vTQ2LxhsxjwbUOJGCSqe51ZMhAbZIYPkkVFjOSHgPrfrGYrBrelssBlnfxhLBY0 2OscS2ihGmRumeMOxRlI/6S1UbJuodXNipM1HLtmZgfEC0kp3P2kQ/feOikZzyXy 61LpdCumEYDK0VSO7Hw685ob90nK710pX012y6exTuLhcuMTu1IfKRzE/ulbgW1O FdGVU9orZu3nFpyixVvEP8iZ67lGjO7GIRQrtTEyKUrP4tePykroW/bT2nfZLEHA == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedugedrudegkedggedvucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhepofgfggfkjghffffhvffutgesrgdtreerreertdenucfhrhhomhepfdetlhgv gigvhicuofgvlhhnihhkohhvfdcuoegrrghmvghlnhhikhhovhesfhgrshhtmhgrihhlrd hfmheqnecuffhomhgrihhnpehivghtfhdrohhrghenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedt necurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpegrrghmvghlnhhikhhovhesfhgrshhtmhgrih hlrdhfmh X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id 783CA66007E; Mon, 23 Mar 2020 08:36:45 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.1.7-1021-g152deaf-fmstable-20200319v1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <05bc0519-0af9-4762-9de3-a3ce5ca74fe7@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <1583839109629222126@axigen.com> References: <1583839109629222126@axigen.com> Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 12:36:11 +0000 From: "Alexey Melnikov" To: "Bogdan Moldovan" , DISPATCH Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=aeed06c2abe64b79883ca0fcff415ccf Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] Email Security - Flow and Mailbox X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 12:37:05 -0000 --aeed06c2abe64b79883ca0fcff415ccf Content-Type: text/plain Hi Bogdan, (With my participant hat on): On Tue, Mar 10, 2020, at 11:18 AM, Bogdan Moldovan wrote: > Axigen is commercial software for self hosting email or for mailbox hosting providers. > It is an all in one platform. > > We therefore are very interested in both flow and mailbox access email security measures. > > We've implemented 2FA for our WebMail access. > > We've been looking XOAUTH2 and OAUTHBEARER for additional mailbox access level controls. Currently, we've been also reading about CLIENTID and its draft: https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-yu-imap-client-id-03.txt I came to conclusiom that draft-yu-imap-client-id-03.txt is a wrong way of extending IMAP and that the right approach is extending one of SASL mechanism (like XOAUTH2/OAUTHBEARER/SCRAM) or writing a new SASL mechanism. That way the same mechanism can be used across multiple protocols (e.g. IMAP, SMTP, XMPP, etc.). Best Regards, Alexey --aeed06c2abe64b79883ca0fcff415ccf Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Bogdan,=
(With my participant hat on):

On Tue, Mar 10, 2020, at 11:18 AM, Bogdan Moldovan wrote:
Axigen is commercial software for se= lf hosting email or for mailbox hosting providers. 
It is an all in one platform. 

We therefore are very interested in both flow an= d mailbox access email security measures. 

=
We've implemented 2FA for our WebMail access.
=

We've been looking XOAUTH2 and OAUTHBEARER for ad= ditional mailbox access level controls. Currently, we've been also readi= ng about CLIENTID and its draft: https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-yu-imap-c= lient-id-03.txt
I cam= e to conclusiom that draft-yu-imap-client-id-03.txt is a wrong way = of extending IMAP and that the right approach is extending one of SASL m= echanism (like XOAUTH2/OAUTHBEARER/SCRAM) or writing a new SASL mec= hanism. That way the same mechanism can be used across multiple protocol= s (e.g. IMAP, SMTP, XMPP, etc.).

Best Regar= ds,
Alexey


<= /span>

--aeed06c2abe64b79883ca0fcff415ccf-- From nobody Mon Mar 23 05:54:04 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B3323A02C1 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2020 05:54:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LmdVlEFaBK4G for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2020 05:54:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf1-x134.google.com (mail-lf1-x134.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::134]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1DDD43A00AD for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2020 05:54:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf1-x134.google.com with SMTP id m15so10128548lfp.2 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2020 05:54:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=fCEv9SF/p51OyuoQwhUiSf7tUNR+UpoVrXDVE5IALMg=; b=1aTDONTf8BwyXRv6PXN8U0vmZMJN7FYP/GS+ccV54SzRMfHhdFA3MCcnF/QwUJUrLB eu8jOtBI6avEnnmtGYVSIVXZU72m+ufjnJCGw3vjUqGJ/7E85TCVQwt3sC7KM+uqv6xb Aruh6XrSQDKsNVFRn5VA1hhwA/y3Nm/vcCz64MKcYMKozQw/Zl7wEkyLcgruDfdOva0n t6Nzxp1mAaaUthOi+wm27EO1+1P3plfssc9voa8Dl7sqiDaPI1lJGQHCVsg7FuaW1o9T isASikJggRYv1ekmLkcT0MCM06n0CuVjhuTObybdr1AV0gK1yFFXatnbYG1jaCvn+H3z 10kg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=fCEv9SF/p51OyuoQwhUiSf7tUNR+UpoVrXDVE5IALMg=; b=OJbUeN6UrPzpU0237fjsUH9ynrIVvzSEl6F9po8BSRRjzPLH2h+mn0OpBkhcOYyJxP Sd60YdCyqw59cFxt+CZFdR74t2RzH9vfMo77dKCzmqXCHpdNNH4hPx88rKIPM4Rox3nI UX3/bCqILwF/Z0+P9NS4w+0L5TmGjlqTl5h7M7UpE+oaJpAYqXOtUQfxgxHEHszoawUw WxD8J5k5mVpvbp4dg+XUc3IT9Yag6ycFlD673IEi5YZVEYsEkXAbviDcjvyWfh28S8o6 1ujUhhYJci3wUe5avgn1fxCqZVL0iPxxCvhQ0x+EAIvfGeEqvTVZnaLXM320LvuJSt3/ lxzg== X-Gm-Message-State: ANhLgQ3mgX7ZLrQ+JhXpjJ1i6ELGfTlQPujWVGXavtjKeKvwjYkB+xI9 MzUxD8IJle0fisOVLmspB2sRFYckLBKGr3xbskJjO27y+Pg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADFU+vtQmd4tgAx8ljRvJvId4HwJGpNP45Uvwyo+opfbas4ZpJxqDcL+B6b3rUGzw3ofiz9gdyrBFAXKMd1w1RSeOKk= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:1041:: with SMTP id c1mr13192386lfb.14.1584968039290; Mon, 23 Mar 2020 05:53:59 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <7b8fafc9-9ea3-6180-8827-5d06b1930f18@alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <7b8fafc9-9ea3-6180-8827-5d06b1930f18@alvestrand.no> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 05:53:22 -0700 Message-ID: To: Harald Alvestrand Cc: DISPATCH Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f66b5905a1852060" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] draft-storey-smtp-client-id-08.txt - privacy considerations X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 12:54:04 -0000 --000000000000f66b5905a1852060 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I have also skimmed the draft and have a different security concern. In this context, the CLIENT_ID appears to be a bearer token which can, if recovered, be replayable transplanted onto a new connection. We have quite a bit of experience with this kind of token in HTTP (cookies) and it's bad. Why isn't the CLIENT_ID cryptographically bound to the connection? Of course, this will only be effective if the ID is high entropy, but that should be the case as well. -Ekr On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 4:50 AM Harald Alvestrand wrote: > I've scanned this draft: > > draft-storey-smtp-client-id-08.txt > > 9. Security Considerations > > As this extension provides an additional means of communicating > information from a client to a server it is clear there is additional > information divulged to the server. This may have privacy > considerations depending on the client identity type or its contents. > For example, it may reveal a MAC address of the device used to > communicate with a server that would not previously have been > revealed. While it has been useful to use identifier such as email > address for authentication it is easy for these authetication tokens > to be shared and/or reused and/or be publically available for other > purposes. An SMTP server and or its operators SHOULD not share > any CLIENTID information presented with a third party as it may > represent or be linked to an individual and SHOULD never be shared in > association with authentication tokens. > > Together with this section: > > > Some examples of identity type might be UUID, LICENSE, > DEVICE_ID, MAC and/or COOKIE. It is expected that the most common > types might be related to distinct UUID, LICENSEKEY, or HARDWAREID. > > > 2. LICENSE > > An SMTP client may find it useful to identify the license key of > software it is using. Such licenses are typically crafted such > that they are unique and useful to identify a software > installation. This is more normally suited for a software > designed for a single-user. While LICENSE could be standard type > again, it might more more helpful to specify a vendor specific > type such as BBLICENSEKEY. > > 3. DEVICE_ID > > Many hardware devices are designed to be used by a single > individual and already have an associated hardware device id. > While a standard type might be defined, it also might be more > helpful to use a vendor specific type, such as ATOM-DEVICEID. > > 4. MAC > > The MAC address traditionally was used as a worldwide identifier > both of the unique device, as well as it's vendor and product > category, however this is not always the case anymore, in the case > of it's usage in 'virtual' devices. But for many hardware devices > which are required to access a defined SMTP resource, the MAC > address may still be a simple unique identifier. MAC should NOT > be used, unless this is a MAC address that can be associated to a > vendor using standard MAC registration information as defined or > set by the IEEE Standards Association and is meant to represent a > unique device. > > I will note that all these categories reveal privacy sensitive information. > > My preference would be that the draft take a strong stance that the > CLIENTID MUST NOT reveal information that can be cross-correlated with > any other persionally identifiable information (we have the authorized > identity for that, thank you very much); if suggestions are to remain in > the draft that indicate that CLIENTID may be used to reveal personally > sensitive information, the Security Considerations need to spell this > out, and describe what mechanisms (such as client verifying the > certificate of the server in STARTTLS and using CLIENTID only with > servers with which one has a preexisting trust relationshiop) are used > to safeguard such information against harvesting. > > (I remain doubtful about the usefulness of the extension. This critique > is not to be perceived as any form of endorsement of the rest of the > document.) > > > Harald > > > _______________________________________________ > dispatch mailing list > dispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch > --000000000000f66b5905a1852060 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have also skimmed the draft and have a different se= curity concern.

In this context, the CLIENT_ID app= ears to be a bearer token which can, if recovered, be replayable transplant= ed onto a new=C2=A0 connection. We have quite a bit of experience with this= kind of token in HTTP (cookies) and it's bad. Why isn't the CLIENT= _ID cryptographically bound to the connection? Of course, this will only be= effective if the ID is high entropy, but that should be the case as well.<= /div>

-Ekr


On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 4= :50 AM Harald Alvestrand <harald= @alvestrand.no> wrote:
I've scanned this draft:

draft-storey-smtp-client-id-08.txt

9.=C2=A0 Security Considerations

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 As this extension provides an additional means of commun= icating
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 information from a client to a server it is clear there = is additional
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 information divulged to the server.=C2=A0 This may have = privacy
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 considerations depending on the client identity type or = its contents.
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 For example, it may reveal a MAC address of the device u= sed to
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 communicate with a server that would not previously have= been
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 revealed.=C2=A0 While it has been useful to use identifi= er such as email
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 address for authentication it is easy for these authetic= ation tokens
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 to be shared and/or reused and/or be publically availabl= e for other
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 purposes.=C2=A0 An SMTP server and or its operators SHOU= LD not share
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 any CLIENTID information presented with a third party as= it may
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 represent or be linked to an individual and SHOULD never= be shared in
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 association with authentication tokens.

Together with this section:


=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Some examples of identity type might be UUID, LICENSE, =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 DEVICE_ID, MAC and/or COOKIE.=C2=A0 It is expected that = the most common
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 types might be related to distinct UUID, LICENSEKEY, or = HARDWAREID.


=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 2. LICENSE

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 An SMTP client may find it useful to i= dentify the license key of
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 software it is using.=C2=A0 Such licen= ses are typically crafted such
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 that they are unique and useful to ide= ntify a software
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 installation.=C2=A0 This is more norma= lly suited for a software
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 designed for a single-user.=C2=A0 Whil= e LICENSE could be standard type
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 again, it might more more helpful to s= pecify a vendor specific
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 type such as BBLICENSEKEY.

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 3. DEVICE_ID

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Many hardware devices are designed to = be used by a single
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 individual and already have an associa= ted hardware device id.
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 While a standard type might be defined= , it also might be more
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 helpful to use a vendor specific type,= such as ATOM-DEVICEID.

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 4. MAC

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 The MAC address traditionally was used= as a worldwide identifier
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 both of the unique device, as well as = it's vendor and product
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 category, however this is not always t= he case anymore, in the case
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 of it's usage in 'virtual'= devices.=C2=A0 But for many hardware devices
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 which are required to access a defined= SMTP resource, the MAC
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 address may still be a simple unique i= dentifier.=C2=A0 MAC should NOT
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 be used, unless this is a MAC address = that can be associated to a
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 vendor using standard MAC registration= information as defined or
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 set by the IEEE Standards Association = and is meant to represent a
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 unique device.

I will note that all these categories reveal privacy sensitive information.=

My preference would be that the draft take a strong stance that the
CLIENTID MUST NOT reveal information that can be cross-correlated with
any other persionally identifiable information (we have the authorized
identity for that, thank you very much); if suggestions are to remain in the draft that indicate that CLIENTID may be used to reveal personally
sensitive information, the Security Considerations need to spell this
out, and describe what mechanisms (such as client verifying the
certificate of the server in STARTTLS and using CLIENTID only with
servers with which one has a preexisting trust relationshiop) are used
to safeguard such information against harvesting.

(I remain doubtful about the usefulness of the extension. This critique is not to be perceived as any form of endorsement of the rest of the
document.)


Harald


_______________________________________________
dispatch mailing list
dispatch@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
--000000000000f66b5905a1852060-- From nobody Mon Mar 23 06:42:40 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 653083A074E for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2020 06:42:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=axigen.com; domainkeys=pass (2048-bit key) header.from=bogdan.moldovan@axigen.com header.d=axigen.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NY5DLiWD_Hd1 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2020 06:42:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from us1.axigen.com (us1.axigen.com [184.173.55.100]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3E4633A05A0 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2020 06:42:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.axigen.lan (193.230.245.5) by us1.axigen.com (Axigen) with (TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 encrypted) ESMTPS id 318DE5; Mon, 23 Mar 2020 15:42:33 +0200 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=axigen.com; s=axigencom2017qgo; c=relaxed/relaxed; q=dns/txt; h=from:date:to:cc:message-id:subject; bh=RaNFmEYLpr9RZp5LxnsxA3pYvMfrO266IRIHsfwXaTQ=; b=bzXHQuwVvJl60VQv6bftuFTGpEfJbvy3ne2dtlSM39JcUX9GWrYL4wuDPEsDQ/Y0GB9LV3hndRfaYfVLE78u8bLyWod1CzQx7pKQtoBOfrxfw8jvx1pudV53DImrd3agAfAeyfplzMiM5c12SzdZmyf1/OfF60gYtZSeN0zYN1haa3rfdgJtOJVJlpEJzAlpuoMVydRBAXn9UTJm1ezDq93SAUbGpHD21KYR/a0WYAVsdZVgRsZ1B9+mb9QWjbxpqjSGiwSddNs3ilxy5COvvV9vrJzu/6P14JSCBDkZvnxjrBEBoYd0ttG405QLn4hSi8dIwUqlCIn+swesksvI7g==; DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; b=WgmBYdMhKxG5L9PQNnWMKX6sh7vIgQANXMSCmStkv9NM7VLY6SGFwEUmIe0EitB9FsVLQaVMzrjpKIPpnLzQlPw7DZZHL6CpumzER4X7eycJLj3UxE8A3gcOVJ9cccX9amky4TtPLlHt5//2BBXkRGiNJuG23Noc9w4zJH3d5TnseudhqX4FpUT1/z0alXJarV57ZHgJ/q9NDIAtp5FMDtXUtgXEdr0yE8ko+JppHaRMWbMT4o5JgMuOqvFbcjXDVfsTSTUzVxqzpp+Ucnbi688QgjLw4QGBCGPF2/Q9EmYlzNuc9Za8aXDNtyot2QgckfO4Cqh91R+OfGvPtMGgUw==; c=nofws; q=dns; d=axigen.com; s=axigencom2017qgo; h=from:date:to:cc:message-id:subject; From: Bogdan Moldovan Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 15:42:32 +0200 X-Mailer: Axigen WebMail To: Alexey Melnikov Cc: DISPATCH Reply-To: Bogdan Moldovan Message-ID: <1584970952117757069@axigen.com> In-Reply-To: <05bc0519-0af9-4762-9de3-a3ce5ca74fe7@www.fastmail.com> References: <1583839109629222126@axigen.com> <05bc0519-0af9-4762-9de3-a3ce5ca74fe7@www.fastmail.com> Importance: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="===axigen=0339140326244849368676329302071684465281=axigen===" X-Mailer-AuthIP: 188.25.78.208 X-Mailer-EhloHost: axigen.com DomainKey-Status: good DKIM-Status: good X-CTCH-RefID: str=0001.0A0C0214.5E78BCC8.0016, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0 X-CTCH-Flags: 0 X-CTCH-AV-ThreatsCount: 0 X-CTCH-VOD: Unknown X-CTCH-Spam: Unknown Received-SPF: pass (axigen.com: domain of bogdan.moldovan@axigen.com designates 193.230.245.5 as permitted sender) client-ip=193.230.245.5; envelope-from=bogdan.moldovan@axigen.com; mechanism=ip4; identity=mailfrom; receiver=us1.axigen.com; X-AXIGEN-SPF-Result: Ok X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.84 on 184.173.55.100 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] Email Security - Flow and Mailbox X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 13:42:39 -0000 This is a MIME message. You may need a MIME compliant mail user agent. --===axigen=0339140326244849368676329302071684465281=axigen=== Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline >=20 I came to conclusiom that draft-yu-imap-client-id-03.txt is a wrong way of = extending IMAP and that the right approach is extending one of SASL mechani= sm (like XOAUTH2/OAUTHBEARER/SCRAM) or writing a new SASL mechanism. That w= ay the same mechanism can be used across multiple protocols (e.g. IMAP, SMT= P, XMPP, etc.). May I ask why did you come to the conclusion that draft-yu-imap-client-id-0= 3.txt is a wrong way of extending IMAP? Not saying it is not wrong, just cu= rious on your reasoning.=20 B p.MsoNormal,p.MsoNoSpacing{margin:0} --===axigen=0339140326244849368676329302071684465281=axigen=== Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
May I ask why did you come to the conclusion that draft-yu-imap-client-id-03.txt is a wrong way of= extending IMAP? Not saying it is not wrong, just curious on your reasoning= . 
B
--===axigen=0339140326244849368676329302071684465281=axigen===-- From nobody Mon Mar 23 08:22:21 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CF9F3A0767 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2020 08:22:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.851 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.851 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=i+xFtQ01; dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=B9q6a+mr Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oBVl7MimT3Mn for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2020 08:22:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9B3BF3A07EF for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2020 08:22:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 2381 invoked from network); 23 Mar 2020 15:22:10 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=94b.5e78d422.k2003; bh=NWqzR9agih7TZPqrbAdUOT+4IEbaFSzIONNJVvLb8yA=; b=i+xFtQ01RRlLLc9BajEWNWECjsFgXkw/cnYfzFOuH4RJ4OQPL1YcIgU5ukesAYWYPwHIXWdZbhhfmlO2lmMTn+Z8VDNrvnfCWfkk074SadQdAu2S9Xol0IRMRFY+27q8+YLAi0/cnv3bQMYVsCDvDyzlqBnys9GwOZGEs6a7nXyS98aWuOGZf4S4M5AojQJB5C0l9+GTPAtNEpQQc7hBcvZy4Bq4Xvj0NTYfmJHSRGapgf6QXAkBZ5uMHdBheEN1 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=94b.5e78d422.k2003; bh=NWqzR9agih7TZPqrbAdUOT+4IEbaFSzIONNJVvLb8yA=; b=B9q6a+mrBhkmEGYrbYFpAr1z7Am0+ZhCKCtA3gMLq52HZqlYHjR031ZVUugfpeFHm6fqY/FCEelYBdKUWBoPG4SShzR/SiRw7FogpNwhU98KhNmuo8JSq/oxq/IMpePd8R3mFLKP5y7V/acSCETOJkn7YYYBHIpgc3qYUiGccPDkVlGnisHpYRh0FqEY9A1GyHT3nyKfZ5ITQ0vf5mBHzD+fcJvojc6a2J5WdrHYi7ZNovlgSVFpj0geMkrJWxhy Received: from ary.qy ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTP via TCP6; 23 Mar 2020 15:22:10 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id 150BE166920E; Mon, 23 Mar 2020 11:22:09 -0400 (EDT) Date: 23 Mar 2020 11:22:09 -0400 Message-Id: <20200323152210.150BE166920E@ary.qy> From: "John Levine" To: dispatch@ietf.org In-Reply-To: Organization: Taughannock Networks X-Headerized: yes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] draft-storey-smtp-client-id-08.txt X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 15:22:19 -0000 In article you write: >Why isn't the CLIENT_ID cryptographically bound to the connection? Of >course, this will only be effective if the ID is high entropy, but that >should be the case as well. I can't tell whether this draft is supposed to be like OAUTH or TOTP or something else. POP and IMAP can certainly use something better than passwords but this strikes me as a not terribly round reinvented wheel. R's, John From nobody Mon Mar 23 08:25:08 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E21A3A08E3 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2020 08:24:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.851 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.851 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=iecc.com header.b=KHRMfCDb; dkim=pass (1536-bit key) header.d=taugh.com header.b=Q9Ah6X62 Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CYoYKsd3lA3X for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2020 08:24:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gal.iecc.com (gal.iecc.com [IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126:0:43:6f73:7461]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8B1F33A07F1 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2020 08:24:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 2720 invoked from network); 23 Mar 2020 15:24:42 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=iecc.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=a9e.5e78d4ba.k2003; bh=vuyd8+CTkVmQEbV0qcXlkuoSc8CCQshrKNvkTcsWmHQ=; b=KHRMfCDb6KVUbXLPjEaYTKPhgTY1G8msGcZWxq1x2EamEkwm5k0HMBavRlOew2bVwa3z42PUIqz+8N2RVXDowL4/r2BU/ARij63y33OUZhW5XXoR7UcMT3PzDRmue82uZo714tbr48k2j4ZePppSEiLeOa+w3JC2PRchCWUz0uwp7YmTPeCsMX1syfwr0gOKDRZclg5criaaULJFkQfScVagl6lcmVmoq1Le9uV/XnJbFQaxAgmGCGABVVeruWVk DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=taugh.com; h=date:message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=a9e.5e78d4ba.k2003; bh=vuyd8+CTkVmQEbV0qcXlkuoSc8CCQshrKNvkTcsWmHQ=; b=Q9Ah6X62t3w2zz0iZ+TxJVwE/9N6ueqX+CbGTjgmTWwKRm3qcLIWITtH867MZTQ68/Gmkr+tQGng8At1Ru9kAX+dDdhSe0mJlpHVtZ80wOYao6Rff5zGa93jsy4GW+pyme3mZ+SEV5/odPEFlwMVpTpD4aHm0hIUzXXA8+tPRCSVLyDTGWF8nEjFzpKHeOEApSp4dgIxwB/yoyU8VVC/5YuoQVxLIVM3dqBOioMM9+McpfJCApFeV7bQgY1xs0+x Received: from ary.qy ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) by imap.iecc.com ([IPv6:2001:470:1f07:1126::78:696d:6170]) with ESMTP via TCP6; 23 Mar 2020 15:24:42 -0000 Received: by ary.qy (Postfix, from userid 501) id 2D5EA1669286; Mon, 23 Mar 2020 11:24:41 -0400 (EDT) Date: 23 Mar 2020 11:24:41 -0400 Message-Id: <20200323152442.2D5EA1669286@ary.qy> From: "John Levine" To: dispatch@ietf.org Cc: bogdan.moldovan@axigen.com In-Reply-To: <1584970952117757069@axigen.com> Organization: Taughannock Networks X-Headerized: yes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] Email Security - Flow and Mailbox X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 15:25:02 -0000 In article <1584970952117757069@axigen.com> you write: >May I ask why did you come to the conclusion that draft-yu-imap-client-id-03.txt is a wrong way of extending IMAP? Not saying it is not wrong, just curious on your >reasoning. Whatever authentication problems affect IMAP, the exact same ones affect POP and SMTP AUTH which invariably use the same credentials. The point of SASL is to be able to use consistent authentication across different services. A single hack to IMAP can't do that. R's, John From nobody Mon Mar 23 13:08:29 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03C6B3A0CE9 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2020 13:08:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ducksong.com header.b=f1DKhDvB; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=outbound.mailhop.org header.b=LdZexKsv Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Lu-EObHygjEO for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2020 13:08:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from outbound2r.ore.mailhop.org (outbound2r.ore.mailhop.org [54.200.129.228]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D44F93A0CD8 for ; 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Mon, 23 Mar 2020 20:08:15 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-ot1-f48.google.com with SMTP id a49so14774811otc.11 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2020 13:08:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Message-State: ANhLgQ3ycp2wvGo6IQNBOp9ACnVmSRdc1ZXVpGpXwchxaOK59erJWzTX TtM/pszbXJ+vV5L9WhCHJdVVtRXBy668oODexys= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADFU+vuAkpf3hQK0tK2MG3ZRhoqmPlqbQu/f2D0vIMK4P/7HrwR4a+pQVOzpslHznjTbv1QC3Ui3o/Sf0BUBn9QoPAg= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:1251:: with SMTP id s17mr20189594otp.75.1584994094979; Mon, 23 Mar 2020 13:08:14 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Patrick McManus Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 16:08:03 -0400 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: To: Alexandre GOUAILLARD Cc: Mark Nottingham , "dispatch@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000009f2105a18b322a" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] Virtual IETF107 - SRT draft is available X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 20:08:27 -0000 --000000000000009f2105a18b322a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" fwiw I did send avtcore a heads up that this presentation was happening on a as time allowed basis. -Patrick On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 9:43 PM Alexandre GOUAILLARD wrote: > In any aspects, SRT seems to address the same need that (old) SRTP has > been trying to achieve, and more recent media transport protocols are > trying to achieve as well (rtcweb, quic datagrams). Perhaps having the > folks over from AVTCORE could help bring in the right expertise? Maybe > jonathan Lennox? With Mark and Ekr in the room, there is enough expertise > already to cover QUIC and SRTP/rtcweb. > > On Thu, Mar 19, 2020 at 7:22 AM Mark Nottingham wrote: > >> On 19 Mar 2020, at 8:26 am, Deen, Glenn (NBCUniversal) < >> Glenn..Deen@nbcuni.com > wrote: >> > >> > * why would anyone choose to do this as opposed to something like >> QUIC? QUIC provides certain security properties, whereas I have very >> little confidence in the claimed security properties of this protocol. >> > >> > [GD] SRT has reliable delivery features that are needed for media >> distribution and are not part of QUIC and wouldn't be likely to be added to >> QUIC. So QUIC isn't a replacement for SRT, though it is entirely possible >> that at some point SRT may be run over QUIC. >> > >> > [GD] SRT has features that meet media specific needs. For example >> consider the need to reliably deliver a live sporting event quickly from >> the stadium to the distribution carriers such as your local TV station or >> cable company or streaming operator. It's used when the media stream MUST >> arrive at the studio and can't tolerate retrains. It's not only for live >> events but such events are a great use-case for the Reliable aspects of SRT. >> >> QUIC has reliable delivery of streams by default, and the WG has just >> adopted for >> unreliable delivery. Is there any feature of SRT that can't be built on top >> of those primitives? >> >> I'd suggest that doing so is a much quicker (no pun intended) path to >> standardisation, in that the design work on QUIC's encryption and transport >> features is getting very close to done. SRT would need to be evaluated >> against a number of design criteria -- including not only security and >> privacy, but also network fairness -- to start, and it'd still need to go >> through the consensus process. >> >> Cheers, >> >> -- >> Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> dispatch mailing list >> dispatch@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch >> > > > -- > Alex. Gouaillard, PhD, PhD, MBA > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > President - CoSMo Software Consulting, Singapore > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > sg.linkedin.com/agouaillard > > - > > _______________________________________________ > dispatch mailing list > dispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch > --000000000000009f2105a18b322a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
fwiw I did send avtcore a heads up that this presentation = was happening on a as time allowed basis.

-Patrick
=

= On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 9:43 PM Alexandre GOUAILLARD <agouaillard@gmail.com> wrote:
In any aspects= , SRT seems to address the same need that (old) SRTP has been trying to ach= ieve, and more recent media transport protocols are trying to achieve as we= ll (rtcweb, quic datagrams). Perhaps having the folks over from AVTCORE cou= ld help bring in the right expertise? Maybe jonathan Lennox? With Mark and = Ekr in the room, there is enough expertise already to cover QUIC and SRTP/r= tcweb.

On Thu, Mar 19, 2020 at 7:22 AM Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> wrote:
On 19 Mar 2020, at 8:26 am, = Deen, Glenn (NBCUniversal) <Glenn..Deen@nbcuni.com> wrote:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 * why would anyone choose to do this as opposed to someth= ing like QUIC?=C2=A0 QUIC provides certain security properties, whereas I h= ave very little confidence in the claimed security properties of this proto= col.
>
> [GD] SRT has reliable delivery features that are needed for media dist= ribution and are not part of QUIC and wouldn't be likely to be added to= QUIC.=C2=A0 So QUIC isn't a replacement for SRT, though it is entirely= possible that at some point SRT may be run over QUIC.
>
> [GD] SRT has features that meet media specific needs.=C2=A0 For exampl= e consider the need to reliably deliver a live sporting event quickly from = the stadium to the distribution carriers such as your local TV station or c= able company or streaming operator. It's used when the media stream MUS= T arrive at the studio and can't tolerate retrains.=C2=A0 It's not = only for live events but such events are a great use-case for the Reliable = aspects of SRT.

QUIC has reliable delivery of streams by default, and the WG has just adopt= ed <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf= -quic-datagram-00> for unreliable delivery. Is there any feature of = SRT that can't be built on top of those primitives?

I'd suggest that doing so is a much quicker (no pun intended) path to s= tandardisation, in that the design work on QUIC's encryption and transp= ort features is getting very close to done. SRT would need to be evaluated = against a number of design criteria -- including not only security and priv= acy, but also network fairness -- to start, and it'd still need to go t= hrough the consensus process.

Cheers,

--
Mark Nottingham=C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.mnot.net/

_______________________________________________
dispatch mailing list
dispatch@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch


--
A= lex. Gouaillard, PhD, PhD, MBA
----------------------------------------= --------------------------------------------
President - CoSMo So= ftware Consulting, Singapore
------------------------------------= ------------------------------------------------
  • =
_______________________________________________
dispatch mailing list
dispatch@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
--000000000000009f2105a18b322a-- From nobody Mon Mar 23 13:43:09 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEF6E3A0E84 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2020 13:43:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -17.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-17.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, ENV_AND_HDR_SPF_MATCH=-0.5, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_DEF_SPF_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XlF5_UxreEcV for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2020 13:43:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ua1-x934.google.com (mail-ua1-x934.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::934]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E87293A0E70 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2020 13:42:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ua1-x934.google.com with SMTP id g24so1715216uan.10 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2020 13:42:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=JMU/c2p8raoDQThRWquVJ689Lzkm/oNniX/jwUOZydU=; b=TDTKS4cVo5BmULG2ibJrTtHuEDAALlapnQN6aDe1xuU+CU3FZfh4EpIYRuCvUB27L9 00XYPCn6DhF28MRbI7N42QfUNFWTB9FWBeNe4mvbtm6Jnx8G/DSg4ZwpbdDpdtQC05lX iqtLv5/yhbmANZqG7dDQO1VOWUsWS6Kf2mkxABhCHY7hlZw5PyqjbLvP3/8xFvF7y/p3 5VwaNvnscXeahPDJ2ZI71jDOFWMij+EvpqgvMY5UB58fMF0x3g/9ekVgXwWPjB35iSPF 1kzELQDazIOc+P7yZWHTtbYLGksfFodNev45g9TVPbIK9CebJaXqAThdIvsexyrn2fLk Ye6w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=JMU/c2p8raoDQThRWquVJ689Lzkm/oNniX/jwUOZydU=; b=RFLqeUs9BxDlXinlfOFfI9fgY17u65JL0C0fE960TbYTduupggBmxSKLoI6xzhh/ut dNDUfz4vDzwQaVIUC4geHapVPvoUGf9qD4fNyAqpDVJbfo/S1Th7Lcy7ybTAXMh/eZNK H/kBp4dzs1Uc7M6SEXjwEo3PNDiUmHz4OEBezn00ZK/Ae/79NGDQ2mWD3rsZ30yswfx/ TG/FCvzvGvFQvTXKlhKUCzgBVQR6c53DsupdIheRmB0GcMCRCwWMYpn89twar1qdTx8r aMwBkW6QM7znk7L3yuXPe993v1qr4Ow2Xk1OK5GYQXJk2UoiS1jdd9LailUYdh1lTKrp d+4A== X-Gm-Message-State: ANhLgQ2kXxHy4WJZ99eQdop/J8ye4yhmgfX0DedC0lgQJqX8trTwPi1m d7e+VIhSvEIeXBAaMeNm12zE10Y2bVsf7dX9uYkue6I= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADFU+vt0sJ7Rv7U5XtkuRSO6koetiS2V+JNRCkudbNIi+7FP/0IpDGwFLRLxMoP6vbLMX4NNEyiUMchVEl/vZ16vQuE= X-Received: by 2002:ab0:750c:: with SMTP id m12mr5574405uap.31.1584996178598; Mon, 23 Mar 2020 13:42:58 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <7b8fafc9-9ea3-6180-8827-5d06b1930f18@alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: From: Brandon Long Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 13:42:46 -0700 Message-ID: To: Eric Rescorla Cc: Harald Alvestrand , DISPATCH Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003298a505a18baef1" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] draft-storey-smtp-client-id-08.txt - privacy considerations X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 20:43:07 -0000 --0000000000003298a505a18baef1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" A random clientid generated by the client and only sent to the server with login information over an encrypted connection doesn't seem quite the same. Currently, login credentials are often reused and can be stolen in that way, so the risk of clientid theft is different. It does not benefit if the mechanism of theft is MITM or the client device itself is compromised. Risk evaluation at login should not ignore the possibility of clientid compromise. Short of a cryptographic exchange involving ondevice secure elements, I'm not sure what level of binding you think would work.. but I fully admit to not knowing much about it. Brandon On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 5:54 AM Eric Rescorla wrote: > I have also skimmed the draft and have a different security concern. > > In this context, the CLIENT_ID appears to be a bearer token which can, if > recovered, be replayable transplanted onto a new connection. We have quite > a bit of experience with this kind of token in HTTP (cookies) and it's bad. > Why isn't the CLIENT_ID cryptographically bound to the connection? Of > course, this will only be effective if the ID is high entropy, but that > should be the case as well. > > -Ekr > > > On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 4:50 AM Harald Alvestrand > wrote: > >> I've scanned this draft: >> >> draft-storey-smtp-client-id-08.txt >> >> 9. Security Considerations >> >> As this extension provides an additional means of communicating >> information from a client to a server it is clear there is additional >> information divulged to the server. This may have privacy >> considerations depending on the client identity type or its contents. >> For example, it may reveal a MAC address of the device used to >> communicate with a server that would not previously have been >> revealed. While it has been useful to use identifier such as email >> address for authentication it is easy for these authetication tokens >> to be shared and/or reused and/or be publically available for other >> purposes. An SMTP server and or its operators SHOULD not share >> any CLIENTID information presented with a third party as it may >> represent or be linked to an individual and SHOULD never be shared in >> association with authentication tokens. >> >> Together with this section: >> >> >> Some examples of identity type might be UUID, LICENSE, >> DEVICE_ID, MAC and/or COOKIE. It is expected that the most common >> types might be related to distinct UUID, LICENSEKEY, or HARDWAREID. >> >> >> 2. LICENSE >> >> An SMTP client may find it useful to identify the license key of >> software it is using. Such licenses are typically crafted such >> that they are unique and useful to identify a software >> installation. This is more normally suited for a software >> designed for a single-user. While LICENSE could be standard type >> again, it might more more helpful to specify a vendor specific >> type such as BBLICENSEKEY. >> >> 3. DEVICE_ID >> >> Many hardware devices are designed to be used by a single >> individual and already have an associated hardware device id. >> While a standard type might be defined, it also might be more >> helpful to use a vendor specific type, such as ATOM-DEVICEID. >> >> 4. MAC >> >> The MAC address traditionally was used as a worldwide identifier >> both of the unique device, as well as it's vendor and product >> category, however this is not always the case anymore, in the case >> of it's usage in 'virtual' devices. But for many hardware devices >> which are required to access a defined SMTP resource, the MAC >> address may still be a simple unique identifier. MAC should NOT >> be used, unless this is a MAC address that can be associated to a >> vendor using standard MAC registration information as defined or >> set by the IEEE Standards Association and is meant to represent a >> unique device. >> >> I will note that all these categories reveal privacy sensitive >> information. >> >> My preference would be that the draft take a strong stance that the >> CLIENTID MUST NOT reveal information that can be cross-correlated with >> any other persionally identifiable information (we have the authorized >> identity for that, thank you very much); if suggestions are to remain in >> the draft that indicate that CLIENTID may be used to reveal personally >> sensitive information, the Security Considerations need to spell this >> out, and describe what mechanisms (such as client verifying the >> certificate of the server in STARTTLS and using CLIENTID only with >> servers with which one has a preexisting trust relationshiop) are used >> to safeguard such information against harvesting. >> >> (I remain doubtful about the usefulness of the extension. This critique >> is not to be perceived as any form of endorsement of the rest of the >> document.) >> >> >> Harald >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> dispatch mailing list >> dispatch@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch >> > _______________________________________________ > dispatch mailing list > dispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch > --0000000000003298a505a18baef1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
A random clientid generated by the client and only sent to= the server with login information over an encrypted connection doesn't= seem quite the same.

Currently, login credentials are often reused = and can be stolen in that way, so the risk of clientid theft is different.= =C2=A0 It does not benefit if the mechanism of theft is MITM or the client = device itself is compromised.

Risk evaluation at login should not ig= nore the possibility of clientid compromise.

Short of a cryptographi= c exchange involving ondevice secure elements, I'm not sure what level = of binding you think would work.. but I fully admit to not knowing much abo= ut it.

Brandon

On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 5:54 AM Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
I have also s= kimmed the draft and have a different security concern.

In this context, the CLIENT_ID appears to be a bearer token which can= , if recovered, be replayable transplanted onto a new=C2=A0 connection. We = have quite a bit of experience with this kind of token in HTTP (cookies) an= d it's bad. Why isn't the CLIENT_ID cryptographically bound to the = connection? Of course, this will only be effective if the ID is high entrop= y, but that should be the case as well.

-Ekr
=


On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 4:50 AM Harald Alvestrand <harald@alvestrand.no> wrote:
I&= #39;ve scanned this draft:

draft-storey-smtp-client-id-08.txt

9.=C2=A0 Security Considerations

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 As this extension provides an additional means of commun= icating
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 information from a client to a server it is clear there = is additional
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 information divulged to the server.=C2=A0 This may have = privacy
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 considerations depending on the client identity type or = its contents.
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 For example, it may reveal a MAC address of the device u= sed to
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 communicate with a server that would not previously have= been
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 revealed.=C2=A0 While it has been useful to use identifi= er such as email
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 address for authentication it is easy for these authetic= ation tokens
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 to be shared and/or reused and/or be publically availabl= e for other
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 purposes.=C2=A0 An SMTP server and or its operators SHOU= LD not share
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 any CLIENTID information presented with a third party as= it may
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 represent or be linked to an individual and SHOULD never= be shared in
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 association with authentication tokens.

Together with this section:


=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Some examples of identity type might be UUID, LICENSE, =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 DEVICE_ID, MAC and/or COOKIE.=C2=A0 It is expected that = the most common
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 types might be related to distinct UUID, LICENSEKEY, or = HARDWAREID.


=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 2. LICENSE

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 An SMTP client may find it useful to i= dentify the license key of
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 software it is using.=C2=A0 Such licen= ses are typically crafted such
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 that they are unique and useful to ide= ntify a software
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 installation.=C2=A0 This is more norma= lly suited for a software
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 designed for a single-user.=C2=A0 Whil= e LICENSE could be standard type
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 again, it might more more helpful to s= pecify a vendor specific
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 type such as BBLICENSEKEY.

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 3. DEVICE_ID

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Many hardware devices are designed to = be used by a single
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 individual and already have an associa= ted hardware device id.
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 While a standard type might be defined= , it also might be more
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 helpful to use a vendor specific type,= such as ATOM-DEVICEID.

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 4. MAC

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 The MAC address traditionally was used= as a worldwide identifier
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 both of the unique device, as well as = it's vendor and product
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 category, however this is not always t= he case anymore, in the case
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 of it's usage in 'virtual'= devices.=C2=A0 But for many hardware devices
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 which are required to access a defined= SMTP resource, the MAC
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 address may still be a simple unique i= dentifier.=C2=A0 MAC should NOT
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 be used, unless this is a MAC address = that can be associated to a
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 vendor using standard MAC registration= information as defined or
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 set by the IEEE Standards Association = and is meant to represent a
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 unique device.

I will note that all these categories reveal privacy sensitive information.=

My preference would be that the draft take a strong stance that the
CLIENTID MUST NOT reveal information that can be cross-correlated with
any other persionally identifiable information (we have the authorized
identity for that, thank you very much); if suggestions are to remain in the draft that indicate that CLIENTID may be used to reveal personally
sensitive information, the Security Considerations need to spell this
out, and describe what mechanisms (such as client verifying the
certificate of the server in STARTTLS and using CLIENTID only with
servers with which one has a preexisting trust relationshiop) are used
to safeguard such information against harvesting.

(I remain doubtful about the usefulness of the extension. This critique is not to be perceived as any form of endorsement of the rest of the
document.)


Harald


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--0000000000003298a505a18baef1-- From nobody Mon Mar 23 13:53:11 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE9893A0E87 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2020 13:53:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -17.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-17.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, ENV_AND_HDR_SPF_MATCH=-0.5, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_DEF_SPF_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SEvf-41_QajY for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2020 13:53:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vs1-xe2b.google.com (mail-vs1-xe2b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::e2b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3E2AE3A0E8D for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2020 13:53:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vs1-xe2b.google.com with SMTP id e138so9722849vsc.11 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2020 13:53:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Ld76bnmY6Mktxgus4X0tEuvGUvkOgGtDPmesJInV2zs=; b=Ew+9H7hs2D0b5wGKeAHk0mWzu+RdxBH/AtW2/sK/3cqgrJlGcmndwBo6COK3W/6tkh 1JcsEpGsYeuqwv1bHiHTrIskR52/5b1Cgh8gxPry/uR62a8cMSPznZOa8RowXwCGzVY/ BrSNvRldSWhWsYgNlKD1Djwp8+6HZzOxipBI8uFLumSIViMdL5hCUBVXHsk2ZfPD5459 Vonxh60K/PBuDZ14p/AlL47Q0kyzxQVfqeaHt0HwIE71N/++FFcFTbvbnqYCCZ3fUvkK phBZs+c6bT9yQJjt9D0skW6CFp4pFPNAw3jkMrrZUFZRLyeY8pllMLb2+n788uk/jyox jq5A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Ld76bnmY6Mktxgus4X0tEuvGUvkOgGtDPmesJInV2zs=; b=hfDkne/LlsW4Jzg1cCXZRKvuEfsYpYvOF5Z7iG2duzl8/NvIr6AOEo6wzMF0TsP//k jQNtHxtaLfu7Kz2DEVoub9zcopsDcBviXppjZ2Rn9CnhunqiE33iwM2mEvxEypHk0yu5 s0MMHgJ8050jokiSRr2bsR3LLfIQzM23dcjKHZ/58ZIW1eKMh74avuYF/ZK7vdb89yFi 5mYa3lcZb07ySter+3xP1jQCR1MXAQqAGt7hhRzDKXJE5Lo6yPxxkNng0g2mPMFBdYD5 KRgn5C1gDw0hnzlbynw/Gzu20DllraebPEPXLNi7kP1ezuPwK9iv/JBVHyjr7eWXIODE DS9w== X-Gm-Message-State: ANhLgQ239gSh7fJc9RMG0difFYa2aeYCk6ZnMgSae8dga4/EVgD+4tVX 03/7tkAnlkWP826k9l6mF0f3WaQcl/7v1Z+rlfPb X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADFU+vvQpPFNjd7UJkZPPyBXwL2Vr1Q924JoZuayAXlFre4mMhDee6FP2FPSXzqSGMuegNdyHR2piuBsDgwVDLuD0yU= X-Received: by 2002:a67:3043:: with SMTP id w64mr17481024vsw.238.1584996785079; Mon, 23 Mar 2020 13:53:05 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <5ca90730-c524-8616-2f36-00e2586a8b2c@alvestrand.no> In-Reply-To: <5ca90730-c524-8616-2f36-00e2586a8b2c@alvestrand.no> From: Brandon Long Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 13:52:53 -0700 Message-ID: To: Harald Alvestrand Cc: Dispatch WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000059650605a18bd2ce" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] Client ID in IMAP X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 20:53:10 -0000 --00000000000059650605a18bd2ce Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" This has been the stance of a lot of people who have discussed this (including myself), that making a new SASL mechanism using this would more clearly fit the standards. One argument that has been offered is that there are a number of SASL mechanisms, and this would be useful to add to many of them. I think another was ease of implementation. IIRC there were also some arguments that the ID could be useful at other levels than pure auth. Note that the SASL mechanism PLAIN-CLIENTTOKEN that is advertised by Google is basically the sasl version of this, it was an initial experiment we had because OAUTHBEARER was taking a long time to get finalized. Brandon On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 5:17 AM Harald Alvestrand wrote: > After reading through this document, I have just one question: > > Why, when adding a mechanism to extend the authentication mechanism in > IMAP, isn't this an extension to the authentication mechanism rather > than an extension to the base protocol? > > > _______________________________________________ > dispatch mailing list > dispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch > --00000000000059650605a18bd2ce Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This has been the stance of a lot of people who have discu= ssed this (including myself), that making a new SASL mechanism using this w= ould more clearly fit the standards.

One argument that has been offe= red is that there are a number of SASL mechanisms, and this would be useful= to add to many of them.=C2=A0 I think another was ease of implementation.= =C2=A0 IIRC there were also some arguments that the ID could be useful at o= ther levels than pure auth.

Note that the SASL mechanism PLAIN-CLIEN= TTOKEN that is advertised by Google is basically the sasl version of this, = it was an initial experiment we had because OAUTHBEARER was taking a long t= ime to get finalized.

Brandon

On Mon, Mar 23, 2020= at 5:17 AM Harald Alvestrand <h= arald@alvestrand.no> wrote:
After reading through this document, I have just one que= stion:

Why, when adding a mechanism to extend the authentication mechanism in
IMAP, isn't this an extension to the authentication mechanism rather than an extension to the base protocol?


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--00000000000059650605a18bd2ce-- From nobody Mon Mar 23 14:09:41 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F29A3A0EC7 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2020 14:09:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.079 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.079 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NaW5wqrqBufj for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2020 14:09:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D97593A0ED2 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2020 14:09:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imac.lan (mta-70-120-123-175.stx.rr.com [70.120.123.175] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 02NL9AQH052771 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 23 Mar 2020 16:09:11 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1584997752; bh=k9kxgQMAFiWE3Xm7A85JTgLC/C8uzKLuSx8iV8MUgV8=; h=From:Subject:Date:Cc:To; b=mToQdh47+lpo8DU3yJV+NbCccVwTs0cqbE/6mBTDt58zXgv30iOOHUnfTgJrOI3Gs E7XhtaIHyvnAVvPRvn3BHKjkg/CYWdyuOMJF+/GbbS+255P+0CnW0+7vyrjLoRw4x7 Rs0JjYZac4+2tlcZyiLVGoi82ZSllLmpstNnXrNM= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host mta-70-120-123-175.stx.rr.com [70.120.123.175] (may be forged) claimed to be imac.lan From: Ben Campbell Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.60.0.2.5\)) Message-Id: <934AA7AF-6F95-4B94-B813-9FEADB4EE856@nostrum.com> Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 16:09:05 -0500 Cc: Patrick McManus To: DISPATCH WG X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.60.0.2.5) Archived-At: Subject: [dispatch] Meeting Links and Materials X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 21:09:39 -0000 Hi Everyone, Here=E2=80=99s some useful links for the upcoming DISPATCH/ART Area = meeting: WebEx: https://ietf.webex.com/ Meeting Materials: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/107/session/dispatch Etherpad for Notes and Blue Sheets: = https://etherpad.ietf.org/p/notes-ietf-107-dispatch?useMonospaceFont=3Dtru= e Jabber Chatroom: xmpp:dispatch@jabber.ietf.org?join We uploaded some slide updates this afternoon (US/Central). If anyone = downloaded materials earlier, please check for changes. Thanks! Ben. From nobody Mon Mar 23 14:26:53 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E21D03A0EBB for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2020 14:26:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id se3p5uWonVGM for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2020 14:26:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ot1-x335.google.com (mail-ot1-x335.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::335]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 58B2F3A0EBA for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2020 14:26:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot1-x335.google.com with SMTP id e19so15046789otj.7 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2020 14:26:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=QEH1/A4GOCrHDiy2zpHwA59FtmZse07nU6ZHYVjtfSg=; b=U4L+STUQDVeNnl72wOtKcPsJTIkZcMtTY9ZweHp5WiltKHNjB09yrgKjXiS0jFztP/ eAoBP8j+Pt47inMayLn7AT9Bot2gsWXUocqmKmecGVl2yMN/aW3twySXV3YClpK9JKCV vEB7Urg0vgQDlFw7NMlNYJP9xhaW+OXrndwj9Y9IZS64Mf3GWQ2WmC7V5ej7GZLUY/bM Vhxaae4Z/B5vBXwMRf3Q6pHfUG9jSP2WpBEY8HeTv8tNpZRrCxzkjxsl6PNkrE3yCB8q Kma1og2sFw47VmKwuz8ouxLWqR2lD3JBLih8Je4gWKcvTgp5vS+1DBNmlnPee2WwO6w5 SKeg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=QEH1/A4GOCrHDiy2zpHwA59FtmZse07nU6ZHYVjtfSg=; b=nK3x+Yh75DQcNj2srjke+qoGxM1ysEZBTZr9VOYEUbBT2bNUKrKiHqW3rLpocXxssF tRfxo8CC+fJDKqMFjsfqpIIpdn82RX5m1tRuT70ivAIkm9gttlKKNF4hFBibO7gWD652 RLh0sgrUITk2TN+kN2sFfHnP7GS/Ps/6u7TbxLQ2h2TMnvupJgSU/wPwOzF4mqND1C5X vLHXWZD7dRfMJ3eSTKbpSqna/LOEySdTwdO70YUSRtK9B3eETI3899Clr4hRpo/MJg0e dhRqjKcW9ca8wUbNmpKa8y0DrMnD9LyqodUZtxM3lisMkdolkfRenA5i2gCrGLETBeY/ 2MUw== X-Gm-Message-State: ANhLgQ3o4EXDRu1TAwaDvJrO+yA8K+KZbM5UKIdXrDQ65kZcxeNwqy5Q GPHbDwM6n9dqEVJUPYXZznu2Ii6F8eNUVgPmSUU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADFU+vtTnO2dGmz17CMyAfg83WeHG8Epoqv3Xdm90u76eoW0ELDlSIZUZah4zqbzIcdLWGIJU73rvER2r8nDPFC136A= X-Received: by 2002:a4a:a126:: with SMTP id i38mr1041332ool.11.1584998807900; Mon, 23 Mar 2020 14:26:47 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <934AA7AF-6F95-4B94-B813-9FEADB4EE856@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: <934AA7AF-6F95-4B94-B813-9FEADB4EE856@nostrum.com> From: Patrick McManus Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 17:26:36 -0400 Message-ID: To: Ben Campbell Cc: DISPATCH WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ea170205a18c4a46" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] Meeting Links and Materials X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 21:26:51 -0000 --000000000000ea170205a18c4a46 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Ben - this webex link is directly to the meeting (which starts about 45 minutes from now) so might be handy too. https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=3Dm81a0f5ba59ee104689f4630867af39cf On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 5:09 PM Ben Campbell wrote: > Hi Everyone, > > Here=E2=80=99s some useful links for the upcoming DISPATCH/ART Area meeti= ng: > > WebEx: https://ietf.webex.com/ > > Meeting Materials: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/107/session/dispatch > > Etherpad for Notes and Blue Sheets: > https://etherpad.ietf.org/p/notes-ietf-107-dispatch?useMonospaceFont=3Dtr= ue > > Jabber Chatroom: xmpp:dispatch@jabber.ietf.org?join > > > We uploaded some slide updates this afternoon (US/Central). If anyone > downloaded materials earlier, please check for changes. > > Thanks! > > Ben. > > > --000000000000ea170205a18c4a46 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks Ben - this webex link is directly to the meeti= ng (which starts about 45 minutes from now) so might be handy too.

On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 5:09 PM Ben Campbell <= ;ben@nostrum.com> wrote:
Hi Everyone,

Here=E2=80=99s some useful links for the upcoming DISPATCH/ART Area meeting= :

WebEx: https://ietf.webex.com/

Meeting Materials: https://datatracker.ietf= .org/meeting/107/session/dispatch

Etherpad for Notes and Blue Sheets: https://etherpad.ietf.org/p/notes-ietf-107-dispatch?useMonospac= eFont=3Dtrue

Jabber Chatroom: xmpp:dispatch@jabber.ietf.org?join

We uploaded some slide updates this afternoon (US/Central). If anyone downl= oaded materials earlier, please check for changes.

Thanks!

Ben.


--000000000000ea170205a18c4a46-- From nobody Mon Mar 23 14:37:41 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48A0F3A0EF5 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2020 14:37:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.078 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.078 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, T_SPF_HELO_PERMERROR=0.01, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nostrum.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8ghqMOes-n0i for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2020 14:37:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nostrum.com (raven-v6.nostrum.com [IPv6:2001:470:d:1130::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A68593A0EE6 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 2020 14:37:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imac.lan (mta-70-120-123-175.stx.rr.com [70.120.123.175] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by nostrum.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 02NLbBif057849 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 23 Mar 2020 16:37:12 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from ben@nostrum.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nostrum.com; s=default; t=1584999433; bh=C6Xa+tLMSPygTcg+T3Scok5ACzAv+lOZxW6gYtZRWro=; h=From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References; b=SSxaqCo81XuDM9sfvJq48mwUiCpCVn4JlhzCZjAXbHln4/mzZ4N13y8rY/CBlyMMg K7pqsJkUxotrvgi186LmUwWr0U4AhymOmEO3DbxYTozNYPwyzwTXST3IKwh3oRHTkJ bUqoEjDign+BeT5fFXT6Y6RBCLb+Z8cMdBVT+Ydo= X-Authentication-Warning: raven.nostrum.com: Host mta-70-120-123-175.stx.rr.com [70.120.123.175] (may be forged) claimed to be imac.lan From: Ben Campbell Message-Id: <1EE9CC5F-02C9-470B-B4CC-F6F9E71AB0EB@nostrum.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_C3B177B4-9BA5-4071-8D33-993C28CE62D6" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.60.0.2.5\)) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 16:37:06 -0500 In-Reply-To: Cc: DISPATCH WG To: Patrick McManus References: <934AA7AF-6F95-4B94-B813-9FEADB4EE856@nostrum.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.60.0.2.5) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] Meeting Links and Materials X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 21:37:39 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_C3B177B4-9BA5-4071-8D33-993C28CE62D6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Oops, sorry, I had a weird cut-paste error :-) > On Mar 23, 2020, at 4:26 PM, Patrick McManus = wrote: >=20 > Thanks Ben - this webex link is directly to the meeting (which starts = about 45 minutes from now) so might be handy too. > = https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=3Dm81a0f5ba59ee104689f4630867af39cf= = > On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 5:09 PM Ben Campbell > wrote: > Hi Everyone, >=20 > Here=E2=80=99s some useful links for the upcoming DISPATCH/ART Area = meeting: >=20 > WebEx: https://ietf.webex.com/ >=20 > Meeting Materials: = https://datatracker.ietf..org/meeting/107/session/dispatch = >=20 > Etherpad for Notes and Blue Sheets: = https://etherpad.ietf.org/p/notes-ietf-107-dispatch?useMonospaceFont=3Dtru= e = >=20 > Jabber Chatroom: xmpp:dispatch@jabber.ietf.org?join = >=20 >=20 > We uploaded some slide updates this afternoon (US/Central). If anyone = downloaded materials earlier, please check for changes. >=20 > Thanks! >=20 > Ben. >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > dispatch mailing list > dispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch --Apple-Mail=_C3B177B4-9BA5-4071-8D33-993C28CE62D6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Oops,= sorry, I had a weird cut-paste error :-)

On Mar = 23, 2020, at 4:26 PM, Patrick McManus <patrick.ducksong@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks Ben - this webex link is directly to = the meeting (which starts about 45 minutes from now) so might be handy = too.
https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=3Dm81a0f5ba59ee104689f46= 30867af39cf

On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 5:09 PM Ben = Campbell <ben@nostrum.com> wrote:
Hi Everyone,

Here=E2=80=99s some useful links for the upcoming DISPATCH/ART Area = meeting:

WebEx: https://ietf.webex.com/

Meeting Materials: https://datatracker.ietf..org/meeting/107/session/dispatch<= br class=3D"">
Etherpad for Notes and Blue Sheets: https://etherpad.ietf.org/p/notes-ietf-107-dispatch?useMonospac= eFont=3Dtrue

Jabber Chatroom: xmpp:dispatch@jabber.ietf.org?join


We uploaded some slide updates this afternoon (US/Central). If anyone = downloaded materials earlier, please check for changes.

Thanks!

Ben.


_______________________________________________
dispatch = mailing list
dispatch@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch

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charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable All, Here's the the updated version of the proposed charter of ASAP (Automatic S= IP trunking And Peering) after addressing all concerns and comments so far.= Further suggestions/comments are welcome. The deployment of a Session Initiation Protocol (SIP)-based infrastructure = in enterprise and service provider communication networks has been increasi= ng gradually over the last few years. Consequently, direct IP peering betwe= en enterprise and service provider networks is replacing traditional method= s of interconnection between enterprise and service provider networks. Currently published standards provide a strong foundation over which direct= IP peering can be realized. However, given the sheer number of these stand= ards, it is often not clear which behavioural subsets, extensions to baseli= ne protocols and operating principles ought to be configured by the enterpr= ise network administrator to ensure successful peering with a SIP service p= rovider network. This lack of context often leads to interoperability issue= s between enterprise and service provider SIP networks resulting in a consi= derable number of support cases being opened with enterprise equipment manu= facturers and SIP service providers. Subsequently, deployment times for SIP= trunking between enterprise and service provider networks increase. This work would define a descriptive capability set, which is populated by = a SIP service provider, and which, when communicated to an enterprise netwo= rk, provides the enterprise network with sufficient information to setup SI= P trunking with the SIP service provider. Such a capability set would not o= nly result in SIP trunking deployment times being scaled down, but also wou= ld result in reduction of interoperability issues between enterprise and se= rvice provider network. Over the long run, operational costs for service pr= oviders and enterprise equipment manufactures would likely decrease as a re= sult of fewer support cases. This work would make use of HTTPS based framework that allows a SIP service= provider to offload a detailed capability set to the enterprise network. H= TTPS is used in favor of SIP for the following reasons: 1. Most SIP service providers require the enterprise network to first re= gister a SIP trunk before any SIP traffic can be exchanged between the two = networks. Accordingly, using a SIP-based method to obtain a detailed capabi= lity set from the SIP service provider (for example, SIP OPTIONS) would req= uire the service provider to relax the requirement of enterprise networks f= irst registering SIP trunks. This is a significant change and could serve a= s a barrier to adoption of the framework this work aims to produce. 2. Any modifications to existing SIP-based extensions to fit the objecti= ve of this work would require equipment manufacturers to upgrade their SIP = stacks. The scope of activity includes: * Define a robust capability set which encapsulates sufficient informat= ion to ensure smooth IP peering between enterprise and service provider SIP= networks. * Define a data model for the capability set. * Extensibility of the data model to allow proprietary parameters to be= encoded. * A HTTPS-based transport mechanism using which the capability set is c= ommunicated from the service provider network to the enterprise network. * A mechanism to discover the capability server hosted in the SIP servi= ce provider network The following is out of scope: * Extensions to SIP that enable an enterprise network to solicit and ob= tain a descriptive capability set from a SIP service provider. * A workflow/mechanism that allows service providers to directly config= ure devices in the enterprise network. The group will produce * Requirements, Use Cases and Architecture draft. * Specification for SIP Auto Peer. * This group will co-ordinate with the SIP core workgroup and the SIPCo= nnect efforts carried out by the SIP Forum. Milestones: Send protocol specification to IESG Regards Sreekanth ________________________________ From: Sreekanth Narayanan (sreenara) Sent: Monday, March 23, 2020 9:53 AM To: Christer Holmberg ; = Ben Campbell ; dispatch@ietf.org Cc: Kaustubh Inamdar (kinamdar) ; dispatch-chairs@ietf.= org Subject: Re: [dispatch] PROPOSED CHARTER FOR ASAP (Automatic SIP trunking A= nd Peering) Hi Christer, > >The SBC isn=92t required to modify the capability set - it simply source= s the HTTPS GET and parses the response. In what scenario would the SBC req= uire to modify the capabilities? >Assume you e.g., have some kind of transit network, which may limit the ca= pabilities. The capability set is provided by the ITSP that the enterprise trunk(s) reg= isters to. Therefore, the ITSP that provided the capability set is expected= to be the one that directly peers with the enterprise network. If however,= in the event there is an intermediary, the ITSP that generates the capabil= ity set must include the caps of the network that directly peers with the e= nterprise, which in this case is the intermediary (after all, SIP trunk reg= istration and call sending and receiving will be directly between the inter= mediary and the enterprise). This aspect will be discussed in the draft... Regards Sreekanth ________________________________ From: Christer Holmberg Sent: Monday, March 23, 2020 2:22 AM To: Sreekanth Narayanan (sreenara) ; Ben Campbell ; dispatch@ietf.org Cc: Kaustubh Inamdar (kinamdar) ; dispatch-chairs@ietf.= org Subject: Re: [dispatch] PROPOSED CHARTER FOR ASAP (Automatic SIP trunking A= nd Peering) Hi, >> Having to exchange capabilities before the registration/session is estab= lished is a concrete justification. Please explain that in the proposed cha= rter, >> because that would probably be one of the >most important inputs for thi= s work :) > > We can accommodate this in the charter. Thanks! >> Regarding SBCs, one of the issues by using a non-SIP mechanism is that S= BCs won=92t be able to modify the capabilities =96 unless you intend to rou= te the HTTPS traffic through the SBCs too. >> Perhaps there won=92t be any such intermediaries in the use-cases you ha= ve in mind, but we should discuss whether we are ok with that. My point is = that, before we discuss protocol details, we >> should be clear about what functionality, and what use-cases, we want to= support. > >The SBC isn=92t required to modify the capability set - it simply sources = the HTTPS GET and parses the response. In what scenario would the SBC requi= re to modify the capabilities? Assume you e.g., have some kind of transit network, which may limit the cap= abilities. Regards, Christer ________________________________ From: Christer Holmberg Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2020 6:45 PM To: Sreekanth Narayanan (sreenara) ; Ben Campbell ; dispatch@ietf.org Cc: Kaustubh Inamdar (kinamdar) ; dispatch-chairs@ietf.= org Subject: Re: [dispatch] PROPOSED CHARTER FOR ASAP (Automatic SIP trunking A= nd Peering) Hi, >What are the SIP-based mechanisms you have in mind? If there are more than= one, I assume the exchange of OPTIONS/200OK (with cap set in the body of t= he response) is one of them. Yes. Most mechanisms can also be used with non-OPTION methods. >Theoretically, while it is possible to leverage something like SIP OPTIONS= , SIP trunking deployment realities between enterprise and service provider= networks >require the trunk to first be registered (SIP REGISTER/200OK) before any S= IP traffic can be exchanged between the two networks, for example, an OPTIO= NS >or even an INVITE to setup calls. Having to exchange capabilities before the registration/session is establis= hed is a concrete justification. Please explain that in the proposed charte= r, because that would probably be one of the most important inputs for this= work :) >To that end, for a SIP-based solution to work, the service provider ought = to change this behaviour, why would that method be advocated when there >is an alternative? While this entire framework attempts to ease SIP trunki= ng between enterprise and service provider networks, why must the framework >use SIP? Why not HTTPS? Is is purely because this framework is related to = "SIP" trunking? > > What are the advantages of using SIP over HTTPS in this specific scenario= ? > What is the barrier to deployment of a SIP-based method as opposed to a H= TTPS based method? I suspect the former is more difficult. I am not saying it must use SIP =96 I am asking for a justification why HTT= PS would be more feasible than SIP. If we are going to use a non-SIP protoc= ol for exchanging SIP capabilities I think it is important for people to kn= ow why we want to use a non-SIP protocol. >Here are some of the advantages for HTTPS: > >The service providers need only deploy HTTPS servers accessible over the I= nternet so that the enterprise can obtain a capability set. >There is no change on the part of the service provider in terms of how the= y handle SIP.. >There is also very little change required on part of enterprise SBC vendor= s. Almost all SBCs today support HTTPS, XML & YANG. >I would like to reiterate that using HTTPS in this context doesn't in any = way mean that this is the new "normal" for soliciting and obtaining a remot= e SIP peers capability - the OPTIONS method >was designed for that. This is= A scenario for which HTTPS is conducive and has nothing to do with creatin= g a new way of communicating capabilities. Regarding SBCs, one of the issues by using a non-SIP mechanism is that SBCs= won=92t be able to modify the capabilities =96 unless you intend to route = the HTTPS traffic through the SBCs too. Perhaps there won=92t be any such intermediaries in the use-cases you have = in mind, but we should discuss whether we are ok with that. My point is tha= t, before we discuss protocol details, we should be clear about what functi= onality, and what use-cases, we want to support. Thanks! Regards, Christer ________________________________ From: Christer Holmberg Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2020 6:03 AM To: Ben Campbell ; dispatch@ietf.org Cc: Sreekanth Narayanan (sreenara) ; Kaustubh Inamdar (= kinamdar) ; dispatch-chairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [dispatch] PROPOSED CHARTER FOR ASAP (Automatic SIP trunking A= nd Peering) Hi, AFAIK, the authors of the proposed charter didn=92t reply to my latest comm= ents (which I sent twice). They may have tried to address them in the lates= t version of the proposed charter, but I think it would have been useful to= have a discussion on the list. I think my main issue was describing why the existing SIP capability exchan= ge mechanisms cannot be used. The proposed charter now says: >1. While there are extensions to baseline SIP that could potentially allow= a capability set to be communicated from the service provider to the enter= prise network, >none of these extensions are readily usable to achieve the objective of th= is work. This doesn=92t say much. It would be useful with some text on why none of t= he extensions are readily usable. >2. Any modifications to existing SIP-based extensions to fit the objective= of this work would require equipment manufacturers to upgrade their SIP st= acks. This would also need more justification, because doesn=92t SIP extensions i= n general require upgrading of SIP stacks? Regards, Christer From: dispatch on behalf of Ben Campbell Date: Saturday, 21 March 2020 at 22.35 To: "dispatch@ietf.org" Cc: "Sreekanth Narayanan (sreenara)" , "Kaustubh Inamdar (kinamdar)" , "dispatch-chairs@iet= f.org" Subject: Re: [dispatch] PROPOSED CHARTER FOR ASAP (Automatic SIP trunking A= nd Peering) Hi Everyone, Gonzalo S. wins the chair-appreciation award for being the first to respond= to a chair request for input :-) Anyone else? We will have a tight agenda on Monday; any chance we could clo= se this topic prior to the meeting? On Mar 12, 2020, at 3:14 PM, Ben Campbell > wrote: Hi Again Everyone, I know people have been more caught up in how we handle the cancelation of = the IETF107 in-person meeting than in day to day DISPATCH email. One way we= can handle that is to complete discussions on list rather than taking meet= ing time. This seems like a good candidate for that. Thanks! Ben. On Mar 11, 2020, at 4:21 PM, Ben Campbell > wrote: Hi Everyone, The proponents have gone through a few revisions of the proposed charter (b= elow) based on list feedback. At this point, we=92d like to call the questi= ons on what to recommend to to the ART ADs. Please respond to the following= questions: 1. Is the topic described suitable for a reasonably short-lived mini-workin= g group, without requiring a separate BoF first? 2. Is the charter a good starting point from which to develop a final chart= er (through the usual charter review process for new working groups) 3. Would you participate in a working group with a charter substantially si= milar to this one? Note that we have agenda time allocated for this on an upcoming virtual mee= ting (details TBD), but if we can close these questions via email, we can g= ive that time back to other things. Thanks! Ben. On Feb 27, 2020, at 10:56 PM, Sreekanth Narayanan (sreenara) > w= rote: All, Here are the revisions to the proposed charter of ASAP (Automatic SIP trunk= ing And Peering) after incorporating the latest comments. Suggestions/comme= nts are welcome. The deployment of a Session Initiation Protocol (SIP)-based infrastructure = in enterprise and service provider communication networks is increasing at = a rapid pace. Consequently, direct IP peering between enterprise and servic= e provider networks is quickly replacing traditional methods of interconnec= tion between enterprise and service provider networks. Currently published standards provide a strong foundation over which direct= IP peering can be realized. However, given the sheer number of these stand= ards, it is often not clear which behavioural subsets, extensions to baseli= ne protocols and operating principles ought to be configured by the enterpr= ise network administrator to ensure successful peering with a SIP service p= rovider network. This lack of context often leads to interoperability issue= s between enterprise and service provider SIP networks resulting in a large= number of support cases being opened with enterprise equipment manufacture= rs and SIP service providers. Subsequently, deployment times for SIP trunki= ng between enterprise and service provider networks increase significantly. This work would define a descriptive capability set, which is populated by = a SIP service provider, and which, when communicated to an enterprise netwo= rk, provides the enterprise network with sufficient information to setup SI= P trunking with the SIP service provider. Such a capability set would not o= nly result in SIP trunking deployment times being drastically scaled down, = but also would result in a significant decrease in interoperability issues = between enterprise and service provider network. Over the long run, operati= onal costs for service providers and enterprise equipment manufactures woul= d likely decrease as a result of fewer support cases. This work would make use of HTTPS based framework that allows a SIP service= provider to offload a detailed capability set to the enterprise network. H= TTPS is used in favor of SIP for the following reasons: 1. While there are extensions to baseline SIP that could potentially allow = a capability set to be communicated from the service provider to the enterp= rise network, none of these extensions are readily usable to achieve the ob= jective of this work. 2. Any modifications to existing SIP-based extensions to fit the objective = of this work would require equipment manufacturers to upgrade their SIP sta= cks. The scope of activity includes: * Define a robust capability set which encapsulates sufficient information = to ensure smooth IP peering between enterprise and service provider SIP net= works. * Define a data model for the capability set. * Extensibility of the data model to allow proprietary parameters to be enc= oded. * A HTTPS-based transport mechanism using which the capability set is commu= nicated from the service provider network to the enterprise network. * A mechanism to discover the capability server hosted in the SIP service p= rovider network The following is out of scope: * Extensions to SIP that enable an enterprise network to solicit and obtain= a descriptive capability set from a SIP service provider. * A workflow/mechanism that allows service providers to directly configure = devices in the enterprise network. The group will produce * Requirements, Use Cases and Architecture draft. * Specification for SIP Auto Peer. This group will co-ordinate with the SIP core workgroup and the SIPConnect = efforts carried out by the SIP Forum. Milestones: Send protocol specification to IESG _______________________________________________ dispatch mailing list dispatch@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch _______________________________________________ dispatch mailing list dispatch@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch --_000_BYAPR11MB28219D35E823641E7707E3D9DDCF0BYAPR11MB2821namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
All,

Here's th= e the updated version of the proposed charter of ASAP (Automatic SIP trunki= ng And Peering) after addressing all concerns and comments so far. Further = suggestions/comments are welcome.

The deplo= yment of a Session Initiation Protocol (SIP)-based infrastructure in enterp= rise and service provider communication networks has been increasing gradua= lly over the last few years. Consequently, direct IP peering between enterprise and service provider networks is repl= acing traditional methods of interconnection between enterprise and service= provider networks.

Currently= published standards provide a strong foundation over which direct IP peeri= ng can be realized. However, given the sheer number of these standards, it = is often not clear which behavioural subsets, extensions to baseline protocols and operating principles ought t= o be configured by the enterprise network administrator to ensure successfu= l peering with a SIP service provider network. This lack of context often l= eads to interoperability issues between enterprise and service provider SIP networks resulting in a consid= erable number of support cases being opened with enterprise equipment manuf= acturers and SIP service providers. Subsequently, deployment times for SIP = trunking between enterprise and service provider networks increase.

This work= would define a descriptive capability set, which is populated by a SIP ser= vice provider, and which, when communicated to an enterprise network, provi= des the enterprise network with sufficient information to setup SIP trunking with the SIP service provider. Such a ca= pability set would not only result in SIP trunking deployment times being s= caled down, but also would result in reduction of interoperability issues b= etween enterprise and service provider network. Over the long run, operational costs for service providers and en= terprise equipment manufactures would likely decrease as a result of fewer = support cases.

This work= would make use of HTTPS based framework that allows a SIP service provider= to offload a detailed capability set to the enterprise network. HTTPS is u= sed in favor of SIP for the following reasons:

  1. Most SIP s= ervice providers require the enterprise network to first register a SIP tru= nk before any SIP traffic can be exchanged between the two networks. Accord= ingly, using a SIP-based method to obtain a detailed capability set from the SIP service provider (for exampl= e, SIP OPTIONS) would require the service provider to relax the requirement= of enterprise networks first registering SIP trunks. This is a significant= change and could serve as a barrier to adoption of the framework this work aims to produce.
  2. Any modifications to ex= isting SIP-based extensions to fit the objective of this work would require= equipment manufacturers to upgrade their SIP stacks.

The scope= of activity includes:
  • Define a r= obust capability set which encapsulates sufficient information to ensure sm= ooth IP peering between enterprise and service provider SIP networks.
    • <= li>Define a da= ta model for the capability set.
  • Extensibility of the data model to allow proprie= tary parameters to be encoded.
  • A HTTPS-based transport mechanism using which the = capability set is communicated from the service provider network to the ent= erprise network.
  • A mechanism to discover the capability server hosted in the SIP = service provider network

The follo= wing is out of scope:
  • Extensions= to SIP that enable an enterprise network to solicit and obtain a descripti= ve capability set from a SIP service provider.
  • A workflow/mechanism that allows s= ervice providers to directly configure devices in the enterprise network.

The group= will produce
  • Requiremen= ts, Use Cases and Architecture draft.
  • Specification for SIP Auto Peer.
  • This group will = co-ordinate with the SIP core workgroup and the SIPConnect efforts carried = out by the SIP Forum.

Milestone= s:
<Date TBD&g= t; Send protocol specification to IESG


Regards=
Sreekanth

From: Sreekanth Narayanan= (sreenara) <sreenara@cisco.com>
Sent: Monday, March 23, 2020 9:53 AM
To: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.i= etf.org>; Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>; dispatch@ietf.org <di= spatch@ietf.org>
Cc: Kaustubh Inamdar (kinamdar) <kinamdar@cisco.com>; dispatch= -chairs@ietf.org <dispatch-chairs@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [dispatch] PROPOSED CHARTER FOR ASAP (Automatic SIP tru= nking And Peering)
 
Hi Christer,

>= ; >The SBC isn=92t required to modify the capability set - it simply sources the HTTPS GET and parses the response. In what = scenario would the SBC require to modify the capabilities?

 

>= ;Assume you e.g., have some kind of transit network, which may limit the ca= pabilities.


The capability s= et is provided by the ITSP that the enterprise trunk(s) registers to. There= fore, the ITSP that provided the capability set is expected to be the one that directly peers with the enterprise netw= ork. If however, in the event there is an intermediary, the ITSP that gener= ates the capability set must include the caps of the network that directly = peers with the enterprise, which in this case is the intermediary (after all, SIP trunk registration and ca= ll sending and receiving will be directly between the intermediary and the = enterprise). This aspect will be discussed in the draft...

Re= gards
Sr= eekanth

From: Christer Holmberg &= lt;christer.holmberg=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Sent: Monday, March 23, 2020 2:22 AM
To: Sreekanth Narayanan (sreenara) <sreenara@cisco.com>; Ben C= ampbell <ben@nostrum.com>; dispatch@ietf.org <dispatch@ietf.org>= ;
Cc: Kaustubh Inamdar (kinamdar) <kinamdar@cisco.com>; dispatch= -chairs@ietf.org <dispatch-chairs@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [dispatch] PROPOSED CHARTER FOR ASAP (Automatic SIP tru= nking And Peering)
 

Hi,

 

>= > Having to exchange capabilities before the regi= stration/session is established is a concrete justification. Please explain= that in the proposed charter,

>= > because that would probably be one of the >most important inputs for thi= s work :)

>= ; 

>= ; We can accommodate this in the charter.

 

Thanks!

 = ;

>= > Regarding SBCs, one of the issues by using= a non-SIP mechanism is that SBCs won=92t be able to modify the capabilitie= s =96 unless you intend to route the HTTPS traffic through the SBCs too.

>= > Perhaps there won=92t be any such intermed= iaries in the use-cases you have in mind, but we should discuss whether we = are ok with that. My point is that, before we discuss protocol details, we

>= > should be clear about what functionality, = and what use-cases, we want to support.

>= ; 

>= ;The SBC isn=92t required to modify the capabil= ity set - it simply sources the HTTPS GET and parses the response. In what scenario would the SBC require to modify the capabilities?

 

Ass= ume you e.g., have some kind of transit network, which may limit the capabi= lities.

&nb= sp;

Reg= ards,

&nb= sp;

Chr= ister

&nb= sp;

 

 

 

From:= Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org>= ;
Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2020 6:45 PM
To: Sreekanth Narayanan (sreenara) <sreenara@cisco.com>; Ben C= ampbell <ben@nostrum.com>; dispatch@ietf.org <dispatch@ietf.org>= ;
Cc: Kaustubh Inamdar (kinamdar) <kinamdar@cisco.com>; dispatch= -chairs@ietf.org <dispatch-chairs@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [dispatch] PROPOSED CHARTER FOR ASAP (Automatic SIP tru= nking And Peering)

 

Hi,

 = ;

>= ;What are the SIP-based mechanisms you have in = mind? If there are more than one, I assume the exchange of OPTIONS/200OK= (with cap set in the body of the response) is one of them.

 

Yes. Most mechanisms can also be used with non-OPTION = methods.

 

>= ;Theoretically, while it is possible to leverag= e something like SIP OPTIONS, SIP trunking deployment realities between ent= erprise and service provider networks

>require the trunk to first be reg= istered (SIP REGISTER/200OK) before any SIP traffic can be exchanged betwee= n the two networks, for example, an OPTIONS

>or even an INVITE to setup calls.

 

Having to exchange capabilities before the registratio= n/session is established is a concrete justification. Please explain that i= n the proposed charter, because that would probably be one of the most impo= rtant inputs for this work :)

 

>= ;To that end, for a SIP-based solution to work,= the service provider ought to change this behaviour, why would that method= be advocated when there

>is an alternative? While this ent= ire framework attempts to ease SIP trunking between enterprise and service = provider networks, why must the framework

>u= se SIP? Why not HTTPS? Is is purely because this framework is related to &q= uot;SIP" trunking?

> <= /p>

> What are the advantages of using SIP over HTTPS in this spe= cific scenario?

> What is the barrier to deployment of a SIP-based method as = opposed to a HTTPS based method? I suspect the former is more difficult.

 

I am not saying it must use SIP =96 I am asking for a = justification why HTTPS would be more feasible than SIP. If we are going to= use a non-SIP protocol for exchanging SIP capabilities I think it is impor= tant for people to know why we want to use a non-SIP protocol.

 

>= ;Here are some of the advantages for HTTPS:

>= ; 

>= ;The service providers need only deploy HTTPS s= ervers accessible over the Internet so that the enterprise can obtain a cap= ability set.

>There is no change on the part of= the service provider in terms of how they handle SIP..

>= ;There is also very little change required on p= art of enterprise SBC vendors. Almost all SBCs today support HTTPS, XML & YANG.

>= ;I would like to reiterate that using HTTPS in = this context doesn't in any way mean that this is the new "normal"= ; for soliciting and obtaining a remote SIP peers capability - the OPTIONS method >was designed f= or that.  

Regarding SBCs, one of the issues by using a non-SIP m= echanism is that SBCs won=92t be able to modify the capabilities =96 unless= you intend to route the HTTPS traffic through the SBCs too.

Perhaps there won=92t be any such intermediaries in th= e use-cases you have in mind, but we should discuss whether we are ok with = that. My point is that, before we discuss protocol details, we should be cl= ear about what functionality, and what use-cases, we want to support.

 

Thanks!

 

Regards,

 

Christer

 

 

 

From:= Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org>= ;
Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2020 6:03 AM
To: Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>; dispatch@ietf.org <disp= atch@ietf.org>
Cc: Sreekanth Narayanan (sreenara) <sreenara@cisco.com>; Kaust= ubh Inamdar (kinamdar) <kinamdar@cisco.com>; dispatch-chairs@ietf.org= <dispatch-chairs@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [dispatch] PROPOSED CHARTER FOR ASAP (Automatic SIP tru= nking And Peering)

 

Hi,

 

AFAIK, the authors of the proposed charter didn=92t re= ply to my latest comments (which I sent twice). They may have tried to addr= ess them in the latest version of the proposed charter, but I think it woul= d have been useful to have a discussion on the list.

 

I think my main issue was describing why the existing = SIP capability exchange mechanisms cannot be used.

 

The proposed charter now says:

 

>1. While there are extensions to baseline SIP that= could potentially allow a capability set to be communicated from the servi= ce provider to the enterprise network,

>none of these extensions are readily usable to ach= ieve the objective of this work.

 

This doesn=92t say much. It would be useful with some = text on why none of the extensions are readily usable.

 

>2. Any modifications to existing SIP-based extensi= ons to fit the objective of this work would require equipment manufacturers= to upgrade their SIP stacks.

 

This would also need more justification, because doesn= =92t SIP extensions in general require upgrading of SIP stacks?

 

Regards,

 

Christer

 

 

 

From: dispatch <dispatch-bounces@ietf.org= > on behalf of Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>
Date: Saturday, 21 March 2020 at 22.35
To: "dispatch@ietf.org" <dispatch@ietf.org>
Cc: "Sreekanth Narayanan (sreenara)" <sreenara=3D40cisc= o.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "Kaustubh Inamdar (kinamdar)" <kinam= dar@cisco.com>, "dispatch-chairs@ietf.org" <dispatch-chairs= @ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [dispatch] PROPOSED CHARTER FOR ASAP (Automatic SIP tru= nking And Peering)

 

Hi Everyone,

 

Gonzalo S. wins the chair-appreciation award for being the first to respond= to a chair request for input :-) 

 

Anyone else? We will have a tight agenda on Monday; any chance we could clo= se this topic prior to the meeting?

 

On Mar 12, 2020, at 3:14 PM, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com> wrote:

 

Hi Again Everyone,

 

I know people have been more caught up in how we handle the cancelation of = the IETF107 in-person meeting than in day to day DISPATCH email. One way we= can handle that is to complete discussions on list rather than taking meet= ing time. This seems like a good candidate for that.

 

Thanks!

 

Ben.

 

On Mar 11, 2020, at 4:21 PM, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com> wrote:

 

Hi Everyone,

 

The proponents have gone through a few revisions of the proposed charter (b= elow) based on list feedback. At this point, we=92d like to call the questi= ons on what to recommend to to the ART ADs. Please respond to the following= questions:

 

1. Is the topic described suitable for a reasonably short-lived mini-workin= g group, without requiring a separate BoF first?

 

2. Is the charter a good starting point from which to develop a final chart= er (through the usual charter review process for new working groups)

 

3. Would you participate in a working group with a charter substantially si= milar to this one?

 

Note that we have agenda time allocated for this on an upcoming virtual mee= ting (details TBD), but if we can close these questions via email, we can g= ive that time back to other things.

 

Thanks!

 

Ben.

 

On Feb 27, 2020, at 10:56 PM, Sreekanth Narayanan (sreenara) <sreenara=3D40cisco.com@dmarc= ...ietf.org> wrote:

 

All,

 

Here are the revis= ions to the proposed charter of ASAP (Automatic SIP trunking And Peering) a= fter incorporating the latest comments. Suggestions/comments are welcome.

 

 

The deployment of = a Session Initiation Protocol (SIP)-based infrastructure in enterprise and = service provider communication networks is increasing at a rapid pace. Cons= equently, direct IP peering between enterprise and service provider networks is quickly replacing traditional methods of = interconnection between enterprise and service provider networks.

 

Currently publishe= d standards provide a strong foundation over which direct IP peering can be= realized. However, given the sheer number of these standards, it is often = not clear which behavioural subsets, extensions to baseline protocols and operating principles ought to be configured by t= he enterprise network administrator to ensure successful peering with a SIP= service provider network. This lack of context often leads to interoperabi= lity issues between enterprise and service provider SIP networks resulting in a large number of support cases= being opened with enterprise equipment manufacturers and SIP service provi= ders. Subsequently, deployment times for SIP trunking between enterprise an= d service provider networks increase significantly.

 

This work would de= fine a descriptive capability set, which is populated by a SIP service prov= ider, and which, when communicated to an enterprise network, provides the e= nterprise network with sufficient information to setup SIP trunking with the SIP service provider. Such a capability set= would not only result in SIP trunking deployment times being drastically s= caled down, but also would result in a significant decrease in interoperabi= lity issues between enterprise and service provider network. Over the long run, operational costs for service= providers and enterprise equipment manufactures would likely decrease as a= result of fewer support cases.

 

This work would ma= ke use of HTTPS based framework that allows a SIP service provider to offlo= ad a detailed capability set to the enterprise network. HTTPS is used in fa= vor of SIP for the following reasons:

1. While there are= extensions to baseline SIP that could potentially allow a capability set t= o be communicated from the service provider to the enterprise network, none= of these extensions are readily usable to achieve the objective of this work.

2. Any modificatio= ns to existing SIP-based extensions to fit the objective of this work would= require equipment manufacturers to upgrade their SIP stacks.

 

The scope of activ= ity includes:

 

* Define a robust = capability set which encapsulates sufficient information to ensure smooth I= P peering between enterprise and service provider SIP networks.

* Define a data mo= del for the capability set.

* Extensibility of= the data model to allow proprietary parameters to be encoded.

* A HTTPS-based tr= ansport mechanism using which the capability set is communicated from the s= ervice provider network to the enterprise network.

* A mechanism to d= iscover the capability server hosted in the SIP service provider network

 

The following is o= ut of scope:

* Extensions to SI= P that enable an enterprise network to solicit and obtain a descriptive cap= ability set from a SIP service provider.

* A workflow/mecha= nism that allows service providers to directly configure devices in the ent= erprise network.

 

The group will pro= duce

* Requirements, Us= e Cases and Architecture draft.

* Specification fo= r SIP Auto Peer.

 

This group will co= -ordinate with the SIP core workgroup and the SIPConnect efforts carried ou= t by the SIP Forum.

 

Milestones:=

<Date TBD> S= end protocol specification to IESG

 

____________________= ___________________________
dispatch mailing list
dispatch@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/= listinfo/dispatch

 

 

 

_______________________________________________
dispatch mailing list
dispatch@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch

 

--_000_BYAPR11MB28219D35E823641E7707E3D9DDCF0BYAPR11MB2821namp_-- From nobody Thu Mar 26 07:52:03 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00B1B3A095E for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2020 07:52:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=hush.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id K3TB0oJwVCFc for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2020 07:51:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp3.hushmail.com (smtp3a.hushmail.com [65.39.178.201]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C3DF13A0A0A for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2020 07:51:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp3.hushmail.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp3.hushmail.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 62452E03C9 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2020 14:13:39 +0000 (UTC) X-hush-tls-connected: 1 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed; d=hush.com; h=date:to:subject:from; s=hush; bh=zrSSHh7Y9Wki5AFmBKPllbpMlVVbmW9uQ36w8987PGQ=; b=DAVexQyWf/iNmcXzfXcwt4TYAyCb/y+b0WzdWVCsq0fk6dBZdK5ewWZ77oMJZVzczDeWyR53GnDo/Tdjg0CXeviXyeSfPaVBQjilMj79f9Cm20mjowRKwniFCW5PQw6h+acEn7Xdd4mTYfyX9F1PjWEBfvve99RH7KaSb+YdmVZ6IkguJAs3Qdi1yBW97YztKyBsSNWXzq/QOre2H0agqD/Ct10iE4Umm7nLtQTyabYZgagqge2X0euXmrUERBZYb5bze4d+TYQFsAVQ/WE0wNm6GovsoUq08ER3nRoYL1iUXjZ+afTvYInLEIwaWfwihvavg4UQqVa2EmKeIURQag== Received: from smtp.hushmail.com (w5.hushmail.com [65.39.178.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp3.hushmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS; Thu, 26 Mar 2020 14:13:37 +0000 (UTC) Received: by smtp.hushmail.com (Postfix, from userid 99) id 9C7E4A013D; Thu, 26 Mar 2020 14:13:37 +0000 (UTC) MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 20:13:36 +0600 To: "Sreekanth Narayanan (sreenara)" , "Christer Holmberg" , "Ben Campbell" , dispatch@ietf.org Cc: dispatch-chairs@ietf.org, "Kaustubh Inamdar (kinamdar)" From: "Samir Srivastava" In-Reply-To: References: <73852274-8033-4864-94AC-AAC149A9E4E0@nostrum.com> <77C1ACC4-D5CA-4A27-8507-580304CC4655@nostrum.com> <2844E7A0-171E-41CA-B08E-55CADEE48BB0@nostrum.com> , , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_627b86dea503d901536ae1646e11e443" Message-Id: <20200326141337.9C7E4A013D@smtp.hushmail.com> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] PROPOSED CHARTER FOR ASAP (Automatic SIP trunking And Peering) X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 14:52:02 -0000 --=_627b86dea503d901536ae1646e11e443 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" There is no mention about the RUNNING Code. I would like to see code for proof of concept to be delivered as milestone before we send it to IESG ThanksSamir Srivastava On 3/26/2020 at 9:37 AM, "Sreekanth Narayanan (sreenara)" wrote: P { margin-top:0; margin-bottom:0; } All, Here's the the updated version of the proposed charter of ASAP (Automatic SIP trunking And Peering) after addressing all concerns and comments so far. Further suggestions/comments are welcome. The deployment of a Session Initiation Protocol (SIP)-based infrastructure in enterprise and service provider communication networks has been increasing gradually over the last few years. Consequently, direct IP peering between enterprise and service provider networks is replacing traditional methods of interconnection between enterprise and service provider networks. Currently published standards provide a strong foundation over which direct IP peering can be realized. However, given the sheer number of these standards, it is often not clear which behavioural subsets, extensions to baseline protocols and operating principles ought to be configured by the enterprise network administrator to ensure successful peering with a SIP service provider network. This lack of context often leads to interoperability issues between enterprise and service provider SIP networks resulting in a considerable number of support cases being opened with enterprise equipment manufacturers and SIP service providers. Subsequently, deployment times for SIP trunking between enterprise and service provider networks increase. This work would define a descriptive capability set, which is populated by a SIP service provider, and which, when communicated to an enterprise network, provides the enterprise network with sufficient information to setup SIP trunking with the SIP service provider. Such a capability set would not only result in SIP trunking deployment times being scaled down, but also would result in reduction of interoperability issues between enterprise and service provider network. Over the long run, operational costs for service providers and enterprise equipment manufactures would likely decrease as a result of fewer support cases. This work would make use of HTTPS based framework that allows a SIP service provider to offload a detailed capability set to the enterprise network. HTTPS is used in favor of SIP for the following reasons: *Most SIP service providers require the enterprise network to first register a SIP trunk before any SIP traffic can be exchanged between the two networks. Accordingly, using a SIP-based method to obtain a detailed capability set from the SIP service provider (for example, SIP OPTIONS) would require the service provider to relax the requirement of enterprise networks first registering SIP trunks. This is a significant change and could serve as a barrier to adoption of the framework this work aims to produce. *Any modifications to existing SIP-based extensions to fit the objective of this work would require equipment manufacturers to upgrade their SIP stacks. The scope of activity includes: *Define a robust capability set which encapsulates sufficient information to ensure smooth IP peering between enterprise and service provider SIP networks. *Define a data model for the capability set. *Extensibility of the data model to allow proprietary parameters to be encoded. *A HTTPS-based transport mechanism using which the capability set is communicated from the service provider network to the enterprise network. *A mechanism to discover the capability server hosted in the SIP service provider network The following is out of scope: *Extensions to SIP that enable an enterprise network to solicit and obtain a descriptive capability set from a SIP service provider. *A workflow/mechanism that allows service providers to directly configure devices in the enterprise network. The group will produce *Requirements, Use Cases and Architecture draft. *Specification for SIP Auto Peer. *This group will co-ordinate with the SIP core workgroup and the SIPConnect efforts carried out by the SIP Forum. Milestones: Send protocol specification to IESG Regards Sreekanth ------------------------- From: Sreekanth Narayanan (sreenara) Sent: Monday, March 23, 2020 9:53 AM To: Christer Holmberg ; Ben Campbell ; dispatch@ietf.org Cc: Kaustubh Inamdar (kinamdar) ; dispatch-chairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [dispatch] PROPOSED CHARTER FOR ASAP (Automatic SIP trunking And Peering) Hi Christer, > >The SBC isn’t required to modify the capability set - it simply sources the HTTPS GET and parses the response. In what scenario would the SBC require to modify the capabilities? >Assume you e.g., have some kind of transit network, which may limit the capabilities. The capability set is provided by the ITSP that the enterprise trunk(s) registers to. Therefore, the ITSP that provided the capability set is expected to be the one that directly peers with the enterprise network. If however, in the event there is an intermediary, the ITSP that generates the capability set must include the caps of the network that directly peers with the enterprise, which in this case is the intermediary (after all, SIP trunk registration and call sending and receiving will be directly between the intermediary and the enterprise). This aspect will be discussed in the draft... Regards Sreekanth ------------------------- From: Christer Holmberg Sent: Monday, March 23, 2020 2:22 AM To: Sreekanth Narayanan (sreenara) ; Ben Campbell ; dispatch@ietf.org Cc: Kaustubh Inamdar (kinamdar) ; dispatch-chairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [dispatch] PROPOSED CHARTER FOR ASAP (Automatic SIP trunking And Peering) Hi, >> Having to exchange capabilities before the registration/session is established is a concrete justification. Please explain that in the proposed charter, >> because that would probably be one of the >most important inputs for this work :) > > We can accommodate this in the charter. Thanks! >> Regarding SBCs, one of the issues by using a non-SIP mechanism is that SBCs won’t be able to modify the capabilities – unless you intend to route the HTTPS traffic through the SBCs too. >> Perhaps there won’t be any such intermediaries in the use-cases you have in mind, but we should discuss whether we are ok with that. My point is that, before we discuss protocol details, we >> should be clear about what functionality, and what use-cases, we want to support. > >The SBC isn’t required to modify the capability set - it simply sources the HTTPS GET and parses the response. In what scenario would the SBC require to modify the capabilities? Assume you e.g., have some kind of transit network, which may limit the capabilities. Regards, Christer ------------------------- From: Christer Holmberg Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2020 6:45 PM To: Sreekanth Narayanan (sreenara) ; Ben Campbell ; dispatch@ietf.org Cc: Kaustubh Inamdar (kinamdar) ; dispatch-chairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [dispatch] PROPOSED CHARTER FOR ASAP (Automatic SIP trunking And Peering) Hi, >What are the SIP-based mechanisms you have in mind? If there are more than one, I assume the exchange of OPTIONS/200OK (with cap set in the body of the response) is one of them. Yes. Most mechanisms can also be used with non-OPTION methods. >Theoretically, while it is possible to leverage something like SIP OPTIONS, SIP trunking deployment realities between enterprise and service provider networks >require the trunk to first be registered (SIP REGISTER/200OK) before any SIP traffic can be exchanged between the two networks, for example, an OPTIONS >or even an INVITE to setup calls. Having to exchange capabilities before the registration/session is established is a concrete justification. Please explain that in the proposed charter, because that would probably be one of the most important inputs for this work :) >To that end, for a SIP-based solution to work, the service provider ought to change this behaviour, why would that method be advocated when there >is an alternative? While this entire framework attempts to ease SIP trunking between enterprise and service provider networks, why must the framework >use SIP? Why not HTTPS? Is is purely because this framework is related to "SIP" trunking? > > What are the advantages of using SIP over HTTPS in this specific scenario? > What is the barrier to deployment of a SIP-based method as opposed to a HTTPS based method? I suspect the former is more difficult. I am not saying it must use SIP – I am asking for a justification why HTTPS would be more feasible than SIP. If we are going to use a non-SIP protocol for exchanging SIP capabilities I think it is important for people to know why we want to use a non-SIP protocol. >Here are some of the advantages for HTTPS: > >The service providers need only deploy HTTPS servers accessible over the Internet so that the enterprise can obtain a capability set. >There is no change on the part of the service provider in terms of how they handle SIP.. >There is also very little change required on part of enterprise SBC vendors. Almost all SBCs today support HTTPS, XML & YANG. >I would like to reiterate that using HTTPS in this context doesn't in any way mean that this is the new "normal" for soliciting and obtaining a remote SIP peers capability - the OPTIONS method >was designed for that. This is A scenario for which HTTPS is conducive and has nothing to do with creating a new way of communicating capabilities. Regarding SBCs, one of the issues by using a non-SIP mechanism is that SBCs won’t be able to modify the capabilities – unless you intend to route the HTTPS traffic through the SBCs too. Perhaps there won’t be any such intermediaries in the use-cases you have in mind, but we should discuss whether we are ok with that. My point is that, before we discuss protocol details, we should be clear about what functionality, and what use-cases, we want to support. Thanks! Regards, Christer ------------------------- From: Christer Holmberg Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2020 6:03 AM To: Ben Campbell ; dispatch@ietf.org Cc: Sreekanth Narayanan (sreenara) ; Kaustubh Inamdar (kinamdar) ; dispatch-chairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [dispatch] PROPOSED CHARTER FOR ASAP (Automatic SIP trunking And Peering) Hi, AFAIK, the authors of the proposed charter didn’t reply to my latest comments (which I sent twice). They may have tried to address them in the latest version of the proposed charter, but I think it would have been useful to have a discussion on the list. I think my main issue was describing why the existing SIP capability exchange mechanisms cannot be used. The proposed charter now says: >1. While there are extensions to baseline SIP that could potentially allow a capability set to be communicated from the service provider to the enterprise network, >none of these extensions are readily usable to achieve the objective of this work. This doesn’t say much. It would be useful with some text on why none of the extensions are readily usable. >2. Any modifications to existing SIP-based extensions to fit the objective of this work would require equipment manufacturers to upgrade their SIP stacks. This would also need more justification, because doesn’t SIP extensions in general require upgrading of SIP stacks? Regards, Christer From: dispatch on behalf of Ben Campbell Date: Saturday, 21 March 2020 at 22.35 To: "dispatch@ietf.org" Cc: "Sreekanth Narayanan (sreenara)" , "Kaustubh Inamdar (kinamdar)" , "dispatch-chairs@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [dispatch] PROPOSED CHARTER FOR ASAP (Automatic SIP trunking And Peering) Hi Everyone, Gonzalo S. wins the chair-appreciation award for being the first to respond to a chair request for input :-) Anyone else? We will have a tight agenda on Monday; any chance we could close this topic prior to the meeting? On Mar 12, 2020, at 3:14 PM, Ben Campbell wrote: Hi Again Everyone, I know people have been more caught up in how we handle the cancelation of the IETF107 in-person meeting than in day to day DISPATCH email. One way we can handle that is to complete discussions on list rather than taking meeting time. This seems like a good candidate for that. Thanks! Ben. On Mar 11, 2020, at 4:21 PM, Ben Campbell wrote: Hi Everyone, The proponents have gone through a few revisions of the proposed charter (below) based on list feedback. At this point, we’d like to call the questions on what to recommend to to the ART ADs. Please respond to the following questions: 1. Is the topic described suitable for a reasonably short-lived mini-working group, without requiring a separate BoF first? 2. Is the charter a good starting point from which to develop a final charter (through the usual charter review process for new working groups) 3. Would you participate in a working group with a charter substantially similar to this one? Note that we have agenda time allocated for this on an upcoming virtual meeting (details TBD), but if we can close these questions via email, we can give that time back to other things. Thanks! Ben. On Feb 27, 2020, at 10:56 PM, Sreekanth Narayanan (sreenara) wrote: All, Here are the revisions to the proposed charter of ASAP (Automatic SIP trunking And Peering) after incorporating the latest comments. Suggestions/comments are welcome. The deployment of a Session Initiation Protocol (SIP)-based infrastructure in enterprise and service provider communication networks is increasing at a rapid pace. Consequently, direct IP peering between enterprise and service provider networks is quickly replacing traditional methods of interconnection between enterprise and service provider networks. Currently published standards provide a strong foundation over which direct IP peering can be realized. However, given the sheer number of these standards, it is often not clear which behavioural subsets, extensions to baseline protocols and operating principles ought to be configured by the enterprise network administrator to ensure successful peering with a SIP service provider network. This lack of context often leads to interoperability issues between enterprise and service provider SIP networks resulting in a large number of support cases being opened with enterprise equipment manufacturers and SIP service providers. Subsequently, deployment times for SIP trunking between enterprise and service provider networks increase significantly. This work would define a descriptive capability set, which is populated by a SIP service provider, and which, when communicated to an enterprise network, provides the enterprise network with sufficient information to setup SIP trunking with the SIP service provider. Such a capability set would not only result in SIP trunking deployment times being drastically scaled down, but also would result in a significant decrease in interoperability issues between enterprise and service provider network. Over the long run, operational costs for service providers and enterprise equipment manufactures would likely decrease as a result of fewer support cases. This work would make use of HTTPS based framework that allows a SIP service provider to offload a detailed capability set to the enterprise network. HTTPS is used in favor of SIP for the following reasons: 1. While there are extensions to baseline SIP that could potentially allow a capability set to be communicated from the service provider to the enterprise network, none of these extensions are readily usable to achieve the objective of this work. 2. Any modifications to existing SIP-based extensions to fit the objective of this work would require equipment manufacturers to upgrade their SIP stacks. The scope of activity includes: * Define a robust capability set which encapsulates sufficient information to ensure smooth IP peering between enterprise and service provider SIP networks. * Define a data model for the capability set. * Extensibility of the data model to allow proprietary parameters to be encoded. * A HTTPS-based transport mechanism using which the capability set is communicated from the service provider network to the enterprise network. * A mechanism to discover the capability server hosted in the SIP service provider network The following is out of scope: * Extensions to SIP that enable an enterprise network to solicit and obtain a descriptive capability set from a SIP service provider. * A workflow/mechanism that allows service providers to directly configure devices in the enterprise network. The group will produce * Requirements, Use Cases and Architecture draft. * Specification for SIP Auto Peer. This group will co-ordinate with the SIP core workgroup and the SIPConnect efforts carried out by the SIP Forum. Milestones: Send protocol specification to IESG _______________________________________________ dispatch mailing list dispatch@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch _______________________________________________ dispatch mailing list dispatch@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch --=_627b86dea503d901536ae1646e11e443 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" The= re is no mention about the RUNNING Code. I would like to see code for proof= of concept to be delivered as milestone before we send it to IESG

=
Thanks
Samir Srivastava

On 3/26/2020 at 9:37 AM= , "Sreekanth Narayanan (sreenara)" <sreenara=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.or= g> wrote:
All,

Here's the= the updated version of the proposed charter of ASAP (Automatic SIP trunkin= g And Peering) after addressing all concerns and comments so far. Further s= uggestions/comments are welcome.

The deploy= ment of a Session Initiation Protocol (SIP)-based infrastructure in enterpr= ise and service provider communication networks has been increasing gradual= ly over the last few years. Consequently, direct IP peering between enterprise and service provider networks is repl= acing traditional methods of interconnection between enterprise and service= provider networks.

Currently = published standards provide a strong foundation over which direct IP peerin= g can be realized. However, given the sheer number of these standards, it i= s often not clear which behavioural subsets, extensions to baseline protocols and operating principles ought t= o be configured by the enterprise network administrator to ensure successfu= l peering with a SIP service provider network. This lack of context often l= eads to interoperability issues between enterprise and service provider SIP networks resulting in a consid= erable number of support cases being opened with enterprise equipment manuf= acturers and SIP service providers. Subsequently, deployment times for SIP = trunking between enterprise and service provider networks increase.

This work = would define a descriptive capability set, which is populated by a SIP serv= ice provider, and which, when communicated to an enterprise network, provid= es the enterprise network with sufficient information to setup SIP trunking with the SIP service provider. Such a ca= pability set would not only result in SIP trunking deployment times being s= caled down, but also would result in reduction of interoperability issues b= etween enterprise and service provider network. Over the long run, operational costs for service providers and en= terprise equipment manufactures would likely decrease as a result of fewer = support cases.

This work = would make use of HTTPS based framework that allows a SIP service provider = to offload a detailed capability set to the enterprise network. HTTPS is us= ed in favor of SIP for the following reasons:

  1. Most SIP se= rvice providers require the enterprise network to first register a SIP trun= k before any SIP traffic can be exchanged between the two networks. Accordi= ngly, using a SIP-based method to obtain a detailed capability set from the SIP service provider (for exampl= e, SIP OPTIONS) would require the service provider to relax the requirement= of enterprise networks first registering SIP trunks. This is a significant= change and could serve as a barrier to adoption of the framework this work aims to produce.
  2. Any modifications to exis= ting SIP-based extensions to fit the objective of this work would require e= quipment manufacturers to upgrade their SIP stacks.

The scope = of activity includes:
  • Define a ro= bust capability set which encapsulates sufficient information to ensure smo= oth IP peering between enterprise and service provider SIP networks.=
    • Define a data = model for the capability set.
  • Extensibility of the data model to allow proprietary = parameters to be encoded.
  • A HTTPS-based transport mechanism using which the capabil= ity set is communicated from the service provider network to the enterprise= network.
  • The follow= ing is out of scope:
  • Extensions = to SIP that enable an enterprise network to solicit and obtain a descriptiv= e capability set from a SIP service provider.
  • A workflow/mechanism that allows serv= ice providers to directly configure devices in the enterprise network.

The group = will produce
  • Requirement= s, Use Cases and Architecture draft.
  • Specification for SIP Auto Peer.
  • This group will co-or= dinate with the SIP core workgroup and the SIPConnect efforts carried out b= y the SIP Forum.

Milestones= :
<Date TBD>= ; Send protocol specification to IESG


Regards<= /div>
Sreekanth

From: Sreekanth Narayanan= (sreenara) <sreenara@cisco.com>
Sent: Monday, March 23, 2020 9:53 AM
To: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.i= etf.org>; Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>; dispatch@ietf.org <di= spatch@ietf.org>
Cc: Kaustubh Inamdar (kinamdar) <kinamdar@cisco.com>; dispatch= -chairs@ietf.org <dispatch-chairs@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [dispatch] PROPOSED CHARTER FOR ASAP (Automatic SIP tru= nking And Peering)
 
Hi Christer,

&g= t; >The SBC isn=E2=80=99t required to m= odify the capability set - it simply sources the HTTPS GET and parses the response. In what s= cenario would the SBC require to modify the capabilities?

 

&g= t;Assume you e.g., have some kind of transit network, which may limit the c= apabilities.


The capability set is provided= by the ITSP that the enterprise trunk(s) registers to. Therefore, the ITSP= that provided the capability set is expected to be the one that directly peers with the enterprise netw= ork. If however, in the event there is an intermediary, the ITSP that gener= ates the capability set must include the caps of the network that directly = peers with the enterprise, which in this case is the intermediary (after all, SIP trunk registration and ca= ll sending and receiving will be directly between the intermediary and the = enterprise). This aspect will be discussed in the draft...

Re= gards
Sr= eekanth

From: Christer Holmberg = <christer.holmberg=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Sent: Monday, March 23, 2020 2:22 AM
To: Sreekanth Narayanan (sreenara) <sreenara@cisco.com>; Ben C= ampbell <ben@nostrum.com>; dispatch@ietf.org <dispatch@ietf.org>= ;
Cc: Kaustubh Inamdar (kinamdar) <kinamdar@cisco.com>; dispatch= -chairs@ietf.org <dispatch-chairs@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [dispatch] PROPOSED CHARTER FOR ASAP (Automatic SIP tru= nking And Peering)
 

Hi,

 

>> Having to exchange capabilities before the regi= stration/session is established is a concrete justification. Please explain= that in the proposed charter,

>> because that would probably be one of the >most important inputs for thi= s work :)

> 

> We can accommodate this in the charter.

 

Thanks!

 

>> Regarding SBCs, one of the issues by using a non-= SIP mechanism is that SBCs won=E2=80=99t be able to modify the capabilities= =E2=80=93 unless you intend to route the HTTPS traffic through the SBCs too.

>> Perhaps there won=E2=80=99t be any such intermedi= aries in the use-cases you have in mind, but we should discuss whether we a= re ok with that. My point is that, before we discuss protocol details, we

>> should be clear about what functionality, and wha= t use-cases, we want to support.

> 

>The SBC isn= =E2=80=99t required to modify the capability set - it simply sources the HT= TPS GET and parses the response. In what scenario would the SBC re= quire to modify the capabilities?

 

Assume you e.g., have some kind of transit = network, which may limit the capabilities.

 

Regards,

 

Christer

 

 

 

 

From:= Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org>= ;
Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2020 6:45 PM
To: Sreekanth Narayanan (sreenara) <sreenara@cisco.com>; Ben C= ampbell <ben@nostrum.com>; dispatch@ietf.org <dispatch@ietf.org>= ;
Cc: Kaustubh Inamdar (kinamdar) <kinamdar@cisco.com>; dispatch= -chairs@ietf.org <dispatch-chairs@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [dispatch] PROPOSED CHARTER FOR ASAP (Automatic SIP tru= nking And Peering)

 

Hi,

 

>What are th= e SIP-based mechanisms you have in mind? If there are more than one, I ass= ume the exchange of OPTIONS/200OK (with cap set in the body of the response= ) is one of them.

 

Yes. Most mechanisms can also be used with non-OPTION = methods.

 

>Theoretical= ly, while it is possible to leverage something like SIP OPTIONS, SIP trunki= ng deployment realities between enterprise and service provider networks

>= require the trunk to first be registered (SIP REGISTER/200OK) before any SI= P traffic can be exchanged between the two networks, for example, an OPTION= S

>= or even an INVITE to setup calls.

 

Having to exchange capabilities before the registratio= n/session is established is a concrete justification. Please explain that i= n the proposed charter, because that would probably be one of the most impo= rtant inputs for this work :)

 

>To that end= , for a SIP-based solution to work, the service provider ought to change th= is behaviour, why would that method be advocated when there

>= is an alternative? While this entire framework attempts to ease SIP trunkin= g between enterprise and service provider networks, why must the framework<= /span>

>use SIP? Why not HTTPS? Is is purely becaus= e this framework is related to "SIP" trunking?

> 

> What are the advantages of = using SIP over HTTPS in this specific scenario?

> What is the barrier to depl= oyment of a SIP-based method as opposed to a HTTPS based method? I suspect = the former is more difficult.

 

I am not saying it must use SIP =E2=80=93 I am asking = for a justification why HTTPS would be more feasible than SIP. If we are go= ing to use a non-SIP protocol for exchanging SIP capabilities I think it is= important for people to know why we want to use a non-SIP protocol.

 

>Here are so= me of the advantages for HTTPS:

> 

>The service= providers need only deploy HTTPS servers accessible over the Internet so t= hat the enterprise can obtain a capability set.

>= There is no change on the part of the service provider in terms of how they= handle SIP..

>There is al= so very little change required on part of enterprise SBC vendors. Almost all SBCs today support HTT= PS, XML & YANG.

>I would lik= e to reiterate that using HTTPS in this context doesn't in any way mean tha= t this is the new "normal" for soliciting and obtaining a remote SIP peers = capability - the OPTIONS method >was designed f= or that. This is A scenario for which HTTPS is co= nducive and has nothing to do with creating a new way of communicating capa= bilities.

 

Regarding SBCs, one of the issues by using a non-SIP m= echanism is that SBCs won=E2=80=99t be able to modify the capabilities =E2= =80=93 unless you intend to route the HTTPS traffic through the SBCs too.

Perhaps there won=E2=80=99t be any such intermediaries= in the use-cases you have in mind, but we should discuss whether we are ok= with that. My point is that, before we discuss protocol details, we should= be clear about what functionality, and what use-cases, we want to support.

 

Thanks!

 

Regards,

 

Christer

 

 

 

From:= Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org>= ;
Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2020 6:03 AM
To: Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>; dispatch@ietf.org <disp= atch@ietf.org>
Cc: Sreekanth Narayanan (sreenara) <sreenara@cisco.com>; Kaust= ubh Inamdar (kinamdar) <kinamdar@cisco.com>; dispatch-chairs@ietf.org= <dispatch-chairs@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [dispatch] PROPOSED CHARTER FOR ASAP (Automatic SIP tru= nking And Peering)

 

Hi,

 

AFAIK, the authors of the proposed charter didn=E2=80= =99t reply to my latest comments (which I sent twice). They may have tried = to address them in the latest version of the proposed charter, but I think = it would have been useful to have a discussion on the list.

 

I think my main issue was describing why the existing = SIP capability exchange mechanisms cannot be used.

 

The proposed charter now says:

 

>1. While there are extensions to baseline SIP that= could potentially allow a capability set to be communicated from the servi= ce provider to the enterprise network,

>none of these extensions are readily usable to ach= ieve the objective of this work.

 

This doesn=E2=80=99t say much. It would be useful with= some text on why none of the extensions are readily usable.

 

>2. Any modifications to existing SIP-based extensi= ons to fit the objective of this work would require equipment manufacturers= to upgrade their SIP stacks.

 

This would also need more justification, because doesn= =E2=80=99t SIP extensions in general require upgrading of SIP stacks?

 

Regards,

 

Christer

 

 

 

From: dispatch <dispatch-bounces@ietf.org> = on behalf of Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>
Date: Saturday, 21 March 2020 at 22.35
To: "dispatch@ietf.org" <dispatch@ietf.org>
Cc: "Sreekanth Narayanan (sreenara)" <sreenara=3D40cisco.com@dmar= c.ietf.org>, "Kaustubh Inamdar (kinamdar)" <kinamdar@cisco.com>, "= dispatch-chairs@ietf.org" <dispatch-chairs@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [dispatch] PROPOSED CHARTER FOR ASAP (Automatic SIP tru= nking And Peering)

 

Hi Everyone,

 

Gonzalo S. wins the chair-appreciation award for being the first to respond= to a chair request for input :-) 

 

Anyone else? We will have a tight agenda on Monday; any chance we could clo= se this topic prior to the meeting?

 

On Mar 12, 2020, at 3:14 PM, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com> wr= ote:

 

Hi Again Everyone,

 

I know people have been more caught up in how we handle the cancelation of = the IETF107 in-person meeting than in day to day DISPATCH email. One way we= can handle that is to complete discussions on list rather than taking meet= ing time. This seems like a good candidate for that.

 

Thanks!

 

Ben.

 

On Mar 11, 2020, at 4:21 PM, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com> wr= ote:

 

Hi Everyone,

 

The proponents have gone through a few revisions of the proposed charter (b= elow) based on list feedback. At this point, we=E2=80=99d like to call the = questions on what to recommend to to the ART ADs. Please respond to the fol= lowing questions:

 

1. Is the topic described suitable for a reasonably short-lived mini-workin= g group, without requiring a separate BoF first?

 

2. Is the charter a good starting point from which to develop a final chart= er (through the usual charter review process for new working groups)

 

3. Would you participate in a working group with a charter substantially si= milar to this one?

 

Note that we have agenda time allocated for this on an upcoming virtual mee= ting (details TBD), but if we can close these questions via email, we can g= ive that time back to other things.

 

Thanks!

 

Ben.

 

On Feb 27, 2020, at 10:56 PM, Sreekanth Narayanan (sreenara) <sreenar= a=3D40cisco.com@dmarc....ietf.org> wrote:

 

All,

 

Here are the revisions to the proposed charter of ASAP (Au= tomatic SIP trunking And Peering) after incorporating the latest comments. = Suggestions/comments are welcome.

 

 

The deployment of a Session Initiation Protocol (SIP)-base= d infrastructure in enterprise and service provider communication networks = is increasing at a rapid pace. Consequently, direct IP peering between ente= rprise and service provider networks is quickly replacing traditional methods of = interconnection between enterprise and service provider networks.

 

Currently published standards provide a strong foundation = over which direct IP peering can be realized. However, given the sheer numb= er of these standards, it is often not clear which behavioural subsets, ext= ensions to baseline protocols and operating principles ought to be configured by t= he enterprise network administrator to ensure successful peering with a SIP= service provider network. This lack of context often leads to interoperabi= lity issues between enterprise and service provider SIP networks resulting in a large number of support cases= being opened with enterprise equipment manufacturers and SIP service provi= ders. Subsequently, deployment times for SIP trunking between enterprise an= d service provider networks increase significantly.

 

This work would define a descriptive capability set, which= is populated by a SIP service provider, and which, when communicated to an= enterprise network, provides the enterprise network with sufficient inform= ation to setup SIP trunking with the SIP service provider. Such a capability set= would not only result in SIP trunking deployment times being drastically s= caled down, but also would result in a significant decrease in interoperabi= lity issues between enterprise and service provider network. Over the long run, operational costs for service= providers and enterprise equipment manufactures would likely decrease as a= result of fewer support cases.

 

This work would make use of HTTPS based framework that all= ows a SIP service provider to offload a detailed capability set to the ente= rprise network. HTTPS is used in favor of SIP for the following reasons:

1. While there are extensions to baseline SIP that could p= otentially allow a capability set to be communicated from the service provi= der to the enterprise network, none of these extensions are readily usable = to achieve the objective of this work.

2. Any modifications to existing SIP-based extensions to f= it the objective of this work would require equipment manufacturers to upgr= ade their SIP stacks.

 

The scope of activity includes:

 

* Define a robust capability set which encapsulates suffic= ient information to ensure smooth IP peering between enterprise and service= provider SIP networks.

* Define a data model for the capability set.

* Extensibility of the data model to allow proprietary par= ameters to be encoded.

* A HTTPS-based transport mechanism using which the capabi= lity set is communicated from the service provider network to the enterpris= e network.

* A mechanism to discover the capability server hosted in = the SIP service provider network

 

The following is out of scope:

* Extensions to SIP that enable an enterprise network to s= olicit and obtain a descriptive capability set from a SIP service provider.=

* A workflow/mechanism that allows service providers to di= rectly configure devices in the enterprise network.

 

The group will produce

* Requirements, Use Cases and Architecture draft.

* Specification for SIP Auto Peer.

 

This group will co-ordinate with the SIP core workgroup an= d the SIPConnect efforts carried out by the SIP Forum.

 

Milestones:

<Date TBD> Send protocol specification to IESG

 

______________________= _________________________
dispatch mailing list
dispatch@iet= f.org
= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch

 

 

 

_______________________________________________
dispatch mailing list
dispatch@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch

 

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One nit, which can be handled anywhere in the process= (i.e., it's not a blocker):

On Wed, Mar 25, 2020 at 9:07 PM Sreekan= th Narayanan (sreenara) <sreenara=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
The group will produce
  • Requirements, = Use Cases and Architecture draft.
  • Specification for SIP Auto Peer.
  • This group will co-ordinate with the= SIP core workgroup and the SIPConnect efforts carried out by the SIP Forum= .

That l= ast bullet isn't a deliverable, so it should be outside of this list.= =C2=A0 But I'm glad it's being mentioned explicitly.

=
-MSK

--0000000000008bf4b205a1c9f262-- From nobody Thu Mar 26 16:20:24 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F285D3A09CE for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2020 16:20:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 60FqdEXJRJtP for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2020 16:20:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pl1-x634.google.com (mail-pl1-x634.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::634]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 988F43A0D61 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2020 16:20:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pl1-x634.google.com with SMTP id h11so2740702plk.7 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 2020 16:20:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=wgKl38N3wzSwYAzR2wQDkjVHiouII6WRVfhxU3b86YY=; b=uZU0zmumdfjIaoKmZ2b6AXAAXCl+k/1ptD90OV07uVmLGvA903Q5soeP9g2lyBXSjY a1bTc2zTz1TKHxEBrOO/nX+/RVahN0YNmhD8FbEOWwUY8TQri1l2gkexxHRGEIPyDQ19 iItJrbQwuBEvcJfKQatuYaNq72AdPOndDsRvNs9RPkxKoBY6kuGKI1+m+ZZw0wtyhpiF Aag8gfDWgvazXAo4CJ7WyYJhAikxwmP6ekd+aeTcliOTguj6LAn0SZrOGEW7eOZihL6E OFxOFRhdxu5QO0wBrk2yJEWgm4DCvBMRXmQRQnhdLscKVH5ZgJ4RDj+/mfLjEFHgxjH4 EVBw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=wgKl38N3wzSwYAzR2wQDkjVHiouII6WRVfhxU3b86YY=; b=otCp6GuW8pSOxTIDBzrPZKT8f5gjsGVBQmsiEpLqISZKC3UoXF8Y4aB8rt/aHFHQSB 2Glc9eq7WSgQgsBt33VBe2ZxMaM5Vq+rttJOnguvfbMcsJ4aLIJY3QbZ3ZghK63VQL4/ 0hb6gwRP+fe04qLS5BAkMB53Afy+f8f1RqFbmQDmrJ0nRkVQFkDheRSXDxVfc9Wu0nzG TEpElEUM16+4cSr6KNPb/rftvHT941bd+fRJj7urDSG8iOCaIn+0KNiAllAa9qDemxaM yknaG3ExVL3+qCaiMDTgsQg8ZNRYDjOzYAE802Pc4SsNZsklzenOZmwArPX4w3nNnxv1 3MzA== X-Gm-Message-State: ANhLgQ3CBeov9dgzvkkgbLtEXxRvx67zzxoVZcuu70VaFd7YASCTbjrh SBeF1kYSM7U/TbolVGe5/vGgnhehnSH+QakpZAc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADFU+vtcY5nsrbXFh+fpgLFYBMDLXN89MicBgK6h2QN2RPoszsaibCwgXGloInIVYDT/EGpI1Nheyetrknizu9YVKiM= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:1985:: with SMTP id mv5mr2661366pjb.69.1585264814663; Thu, 26 Mar 2020 16:20:14 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <73852274-8033-4864-94AC-AAC149A9E4E0@nostrum.com> <77C1ACC4-D5CA-4A27-8507-580304CC4655@nostrum.com> <2844E7A0-171E-41CA-B08E-55CADEE48BB0@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: From: Mary Barnes Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 18:20:02 -0500 Message-ID: To: "Murray S. Kucherawy" Cc: "dispatch@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000272cb905a1ca3a13" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] PROPOSED CHARTER FOR ASAP (Automatic SIP trunking And Peering) X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 23:20:22 -0000 --000000000000272cb905a1ca3a13 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Indeed, it would be a good think to coordinate with the SIP Connect efforts. I did find it interesting that there have been no messages about this new work being posted on the SIP Forum mailing list. I think at a minimum an email announcing this group should go to the SIP Forum Tech WG mailing list. While the majority of those folks are likely on the SIPCORE WG mailing list, when I checked at one time, I was surprised that not all the folks I might expect were on the DISPATCH WG mailing list when I looked a while back. Regards, Mary. On Thu, Mar 26, 2020 at 6:00 PM Murray S. Kucherawy wrote: > One nit, which can be handled anywhere in the process (i.e., it's not a > blocker): > > On Wed, Mar 25, 2020 at 9:07 PM Sreekanth Narayanan (sreenara) 40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > >> The group will produce >> >> - Requirements, Use Cases and Architecture draft. >> - Specification for SIP Auto Peer. >> - This group will co-ordinate with the SIP core workgroup and the >> SIPConnect efforts carried out by the SIP Forum.. >> >> > That last bullet isn't a deliverable, so it should be outside of this > list. But I'm glad it's being mentioned explicitly. > > -MSK > > _______________________________________________ > dispatch mailing list > dispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch > --000000000000272cb905a1ca3a13 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Indeed, it would be a good think to coordinate with the SI= P Connect efforts. I did find it interesting that there have been no messag= es about this new work being posted on the SIP Forum mailing list.=C2=A0 = =C2=A0I think at a minimum an email announcing this group=C2=A0should go to= the SIP Forum Tech WG mailing list.=C2=A0 =C2=A0While the majority of thos= e folks are likely on the SIPCORE WG mailing list, when I checked at one ti= me, I was surprised that not all the folks I might expect were on the DISPA= TCH WG mailing list when I looked a while back.=C2=A0

Re= gards,
Mary.=C2=A0

On Thu, Mar 26, 2020 at 6:00 PM Murray S.= Kucherawy <superuser@gmail.com> wrote:
One nit, which can be handled anywhere in the process (= i.e., it's not a blocker):

On Wed, Mar 25, 2020 at 9:07 PM Sreekanth= Narayanan (sreenara) <sreenara=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
The grou= p will produce
  • Requirements, = Use Cases and Architecture draft.
  • Specification for SIP Auto Peer.
  • This group will co-ordinate with the= SIP core workgroup and the SIPConnect efforts carried out by the SIP Forum= ..

That = last bullet isn't a deliverable, so it should be outside of this list.= =C2=A0 But I'm glad it's being mentioned explicitly.

=
-MSK

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dispatch@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
--000000000000272cb905a1ca3a13-- From nobody Fri Mar 27 11:05:53 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E91093A0C34; Fri, 27 Mar 2020 11:05:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9yPp9TGp1RLX; Fri, 27 Mar 2020 11:05:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vk1-xa2e.google.com (mail-vk1-xa2e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::a2e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3464F3A0BE9; Fri, 27 Mar 2020 11:05:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vk1-xa2e.google.com with SMTP id p123so2939672vkg.1; Fri, 27 Mar 2020 11:05:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=2qlZQGBvOpL5aQBrWeX8kFt38ZdxYL5sV4/PzCm03d4=; b=Y631Npl8j134kBA4jOqM6+kAFeq3gwTcDUD2LPHZ5qiFeHGVlM+q9mCLHU3oMlVyl2 N802HoztWssJ9Vw3UUNTOP4K7CBzIehYgDTFrcNmz9xqYrn8tZBIBlF3iwur5fpAQSLc UeVHP5wVLz2G2rlrFxfzdlepqrUODfsnAX5R0+tr8/i7jn9jMRjE9uRNeCSacz4qabD9 iaQefCEfelz1ScnyY4Uk2xxdnq4/yRvdUGbIQWdlzthoz4n9qFcPLUgiTDmVJA6iZvqJ pTkOywUTS99Oh+sYjYjoLYpY0d0g9M9NC4EerRvetVoFBh3lsemwZS9EjLo7F4aPnBwB y47w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=2qlZQGBvOpL5aQBrWeX8kFt38ZdxYL5sV4/PzCm03d4=; b=XiJRL+MlvFE4CTJn9mLUOdcpTPy6D24RJO26G2RQAEytyKOoE32RWiHfc10ytYIkgF S1RfpltGX+6oB+Qe1GM0RgZLIXzw9EOm0E45o7HoiFEZwnP0XLbr1DnYAcoymrdrqO98 q8QIKltw4CI98sTtcU+RVHE2wY2PwRgEwTWKUN3Dnvz+OTXfAt0eV3iGlF4E8FEjt2Xs 5rn5psVjAtDS1IC5heKGq+Hx0oy46dhg3fB6b8tl1p3NlG6rSTRUBn1Wcudx7hKn3jBR Air7c7DiGr6oVnVHXv1+QqzEwzFfLHFh4XvqaJHkMWZ/8iSkUsF64JAMP+2/rBpqLE7t 90Tg== X-Gm-Message-State: ANhLgQ2VDa7yWSZFYdC2Qsyh8YiTZ+OwsyXRjnuFa+TBnWPQGMtZXXhy hCE2cU7ieuMi/Mvhv1bDZMCmBN2TPUzpsKvNoRs= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADFU+vsdMzC6kCJsRB1h5KIPdxTw0aJ2nJz+ZxYG0z56SdCGFTOWPnum85Ok0es0KJAQbMtSICZEAHiS6MxnqAXEt1I= X-Received: by 2002:a1f:d784:: with SMTP id o126mr11517482vkg.51.1585332347124; Fri, 27 Mar 2020 11:05:47 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <73852274-8033-4864-94AC-AAC149A9E4E0@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: <73852274-8033-4864-94AC-AAC149A9E4E0@nostrum.com> From: Andy Hutton Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2020 18:05:36 +0000 Message-ID: To: Ben Campbell Cc: "dispatch@ietf.org" , "Sreekanth Narayanan (sreenara)" , "Kaustubh Inamdar (kinamdar)" , "dispatch-chairs@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] PROPOSED CHARTER FOR ASAP (Automatic SIP trunking And Peering) X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2020 18:05:51 -0000 Hi Ben / All, I think a short-lived WG for this would be good the charter looks like a good start and likely I would participate. Regards Andy On Wed, 11 Mar 2020 at 21:21, Ben Campbell wrote: > > Hi Everyone, > > The proponents have gone through a few revisions of the proposed charter = (below) based on list feedback. At this point, we=E2=80=99d like to call th= e questions on what to recommend to to the ART ADs. Please respond to the f= ollowing questions: > > 1. Is the topic described suitable for a reasonably short-lived mini-work= ing group, without requiring a separate BoF first? > > 2. Is the charter a good starting point from which to develop a final cha= rter (through the usual charter review process for new working groups) > > 3. Would you participate in a working group with a charter substantially = similar to this one? > > Note that we have agenda time allocated for this on an upcoming virtual m= eeting (details TBD), but if we can close these questions via email, we can= give that time back to other things. > > Thanks! > > Ben. > > On Feb 27, 2020, at 10:56 PM, Sreekanth Narayanan (sreenara) wrote: > > All, > > Here are the revisions to the proposed charter of ASAP (Automatic SIP tru= nking And Peering) after incorporating the latest comments. Suggestions/com= ments are welcome. > > > The deployment of a Session Initiation Protocol (SIP)-based infrastructur= e in enterprise and service provider communication networks is increasing a= t a rapid pace. Consequently, direct IP peering between enterprise and serv= ice provider networks is quickly replacing traditional methods of interconn= ection between enterprise and service provider networks. > > Currently published standards provide a strong foundation over which dire= ct IP peering can be realized. However, given the sheer number of these sta= ndards, it is often not clear which behavioural subsets, extensions to base= line protocols and operating principles ought to be configured by the enter= prise network administrator to ensure successful peering with a SIP service= provider network. This lack of context often leads to interoperability iss= ues between enterprise and service provider SIP networks resulting in a lar= ge number of support cases being opened with enterprise equipment manufactu= rers and SIP service providers. Subsequently, deployment times for SIP trun= king between enterprise and service provider networks increase significantl= y. > > This work would define a descriptive capability set, which is populated b= y a SIP service provider, and which, when communicated to an enterprise net= work, provides the enterprise network with sufficient information to setup = SIP trunking with the SIP service provider. Such a capability set would not= only result in SIP trunking deployment times being drastically scaled down= , but also would result in a significant decrease in interoperability issue= s between enterprise and service provider network. Over the long run, opera= tional costs for service providers and enterprise equipment manufactures wo= uld likely decrease as a result of fewer support cases. > > This work would make use of HTTPS based framework that allows a SIP servi= ce provider to offload a detailed capability set to the enterprise network.= HTTPS is used in favor of SIP for the following reasons: > 1. While there are extensions to baseline SIP that could potentially allo= w a capability set to be communicated from the service provider to the ente= rprise network, none of these extensions are readily usable to achieve the = objective of this work. > 2. Any modifications to existing SIP-based extensions to fit the objectiv= e of this work would require equipment manufacturers to upgrade their SIP s= tacks. > > The scope of activity includes: > > * Define a robust capability set which encapsulates sufficient informatio= n to ensure smooth IP peering between enterprise and service provider SIP n= etworks. > * Define a data model for the capability set. > * Extensibility of the data model to allow proprietary parameters to be e= ncoded. > * A HTTPS-based transport mechanism using which the capability set is com= municated from the service provider network to the enterprise network. > * A mechanism to discover the capability server hosted in the SIP service= provider network > > The following is out of scope: > * Extensions to SIP that enable an enterprise network to solicit and obta= in a descriptive capability set from a SIP service provider. > * A workflow/mechanism that allows service providers to directly configur= e devices in the enterprise network. > > The group will produce > * Requirements, Use Cases and Architecture draft. > * Specification for SIP Auto Peer. > > This group will co-ordinate with the SIP core workgroup and the SIPConnec= t efforts carried out by the SIP Forum. > > Milestones: > Send protocol specification to IESG > > _______________________________________________ > dispatch mailing list > dispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch > > > _______________________________________________ > dispatch mailing list > dispatch@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch From nobody Fri Mar 27 13:43:25 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: dispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1947C3A0959; Fri, 27 Mar 2020 13:43:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.563 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.563 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From: Christer Holmberg To: "Sreekanth Narayanan (sreenara)" , Ben Campbell , "dispatch@ietf.org" CC: "Kaustubh Inamdar (kinamdar)" , "dispatch-chairs@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [dispatch] PROPOSED CHARTER FOR ASAP (Automatic SIP trunking And Peering) Thread-Index: AQHV7fJsGco3tkiq3Ey8OuVoB7iPT6hD+imAgAF/nACADiqZAIAAZF+AgABIJGSAAIy5gIAADBmjgABzaYCAAFwopYAErQMLgALQBwA= Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2020 20:43:15 +0000 Message-ID: References: <73852274-8033-4864-94AC-AAC149A9E4E0@nostrum.com> <77C1ACC4-D5CA-4A27-8507-580304CC4655@nostrum.com> <2844E7A0-171E-41CA-B08E-55CADEE48BB0@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-GB X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.1e.0.191013 authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=christer.holmberg@ericsson.com; x-originating-ip: [188.127.223.154] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 04c721f4-8d51-4e2a-5b3f-08d7d28f792f x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: 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Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=XAchNVEPMrU3lS0QavzrzDbAXDVzE1IMmxRgwZwOrtE=; b=SZhxrkDMYVDUq20Yl/mDOW9HJv dRju/z/6hFuW68Dxg+6yrPeSupadWIovNtmIaPsPPqSM86gV1+zjGvdBSgPbZvCxmsU+0Nl3CNl1X 5l22SKTlFXTgdn5/J4+6bjLw0; Received: from pool-100-36-47-17.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([100.36.47.17]:58882 helo=[192.168.1.156]) by box5527.bluehost.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jHwMf-000rAA-00; Fri, 27 Mar 2020 15:18:05 -0600 User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/16.35.20030802 Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2020 17:18:03 -0400 From: Richard Shockey To: Mary Barnes , "Murray S. Kucherawy" CC: "dispatch@ietf.org" Message-ID: <5A2B03C7-AACA-4892-9457-E043C07C40A1@shockey.us> Thread-Topic: [dispatch] PROPOSED CHARTER FOR ASAP (Automatic SIP trunking And Peering) References: <73852274-8033-4864-94AC-AAC149A9E4E0@nostrum.com> <77C1ACC4-D5CA-4A27-8507-580304CC4655@nostrum.com> <2844E7A0-171E-41CA-B08E-55CADEE48BB0@nostrum.com> In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3668174284_1988107436" X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box5527.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - shockey.us X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 100.36.47.17 X-Source-L: No X-Exim-ID: 1jHwMf-000rAA-00 X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: pool-100-36-47-17.washdc.fios.verizon.net ([192.168.1.156]) [100.36.47.17]:58882 X-Source-Auth: richard+shockey.us X-Email-Count: 3 X-Source-Cap: c2hvY2tleXU7c2hvY2tleXU7Ym94NTUyNy5ibHVlaG9zdC5jb20= X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [dispatch] PROPOSED CHARTER FOR ASAP (Automatic SIP trunking And Peering) X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2020 21:18:08 -0000 > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3668174284_1988107436 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable =20 +1 agreed.=20 =20 =E2=80=94=20 Richard Shockey Shockey Consulting LLC Chairman of the Board SIP Forum www.shockey.us www.sipforum.org richardshockey.us Skype-Linkedin-Facebook =E2=80=93Twitter rshockey101 PSTN +1 703-593-2683 =20 =20 From: dispatch on behalf of Mary Barnes Date: Thursday, March 26, 2020 at 7:20 PM To: "Murray S. Kucherawy" Cc: "dispatch@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [dispatch] PROPOSED CHARTER FOR ASAP (Automatic SIP trunking A= nd Peering) =20 Indeed, it would be a good think to coordinate with the SIP Connect efforts= . I did find it interesting that there have been no messages about this new = work being posted on the SIP Forum mailing list. I think at a minimum an e= mail announcing this group should go to the SIP Forum Tech WG mailing list. = While the majority of those folks are likely on the SIPCORE WG mailing lis= t, when I checked at one time, I was surprised that not all the folks I migh= t expect were on the DISPATCH WG mailing list when I looked a while back.=20 =20 Regards, Mary.=20 =20 On Thu, Mar 26, 2020 at 6:00 PM Murray S. Kucherawy w= rote: One nit, which can be handled anywhere in the process (i.e., it's not a blo= cker): =20 On Wed, Mar 25, 2020 at 9:07 PM Sreekanth Narayanan (sreenara) wrote: The group will produce Requirements, Use Cases and Architecture draft. Specification for SIP Auto Peer. This group will co-ordinate with the SIP core workgroup and the SIPConnect = efforts carried out by the SIP Forum... =20 That last bullet isn't a deliverable, so it should be outside of this list.= But I'm glad it's being mentioned explicitly. =20 -MSK =20 _______________________________________________ dispatch mailing list dispatch@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch _______________________________________________ dispatch mailing list dispa= tch@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch=20 --B_3668174284_1988107436 Content-type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

 

+1 agreed.=

 

=E2=80=94 =

Richard Shockey

Shockey Consulting LLC=

Chairman of the Board SIP Forum<= /o:p>

www.shockey.us=

www.sipforum.org

richard<at>shockey.us<= /o:p>

Skype-Linkedin-Facebook =E2= =80=93Twitter  rshockey101

PSTN +1 703-593-2683

 

 

From: dispatch <dispatch-bounces@i= etf.org> on behalf of Mary Barnes <mary.ietf.barnes@gmail.com>
<= b>Date: Thursday, March 26, 2020 at 7:20 PM
To: "Murray S= . Kucherawy" <superuser@gmail.com>
Cc: "dispatch@i= etf.org" <dispatch@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [dispatch] PR= OPOSED CHARTER FOR ASAP (Automatic SIP trunking And Peering)

 

Indeed, it would be a good think to coordinate with the SIP Conne= ct efforts. I did find it interesting that there have been no messages about= this new work being posted on the SIP Forum mailing list.   I thi= nk at a minimum an email announcing this group should go to the SIP For= um Tech WG mailing list.   While the majority of those folks are l= ikely on the SIPCORE WG mailing list, when I checked at one time, I was surp= rised that not all the folks I might expect were on the DISPATCH WG mailing = list when I looked a while back. 

 

Regards,

<= /div>

Mary. 

 

On Thu, Mar 26, = 2020 at 6:00 PM Murray S. Kucherawy <superuser@gmail.com> wrote:

One nit, which can= be handled anywhere in the process (i.e., it's not a blocker):

 

On Wed, Mar 25, 2020 at 9:07 PM Sreekanth Narayanan (sreenara) <sreenara= =3D40cisco.com@dma= rc.ietf.org> wrote:

The group will produce

  • Requirements, Use Cases and Architecture draft.
  • Specification for SIP Auto Peer.
  • This group will co-ordinate with the SIP core workgroup and the= SIPConnect efforts carried out by the SIP Forum...

 

That last bullet isn't a deliverable, so it should be outside of this list= .  But I'm glad it's being mentioned explicitly.

 

-MS= K

 

_______________________________________________
dispatch= mailing list
dispatch= @ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch<= /p>

___________________________________= ____________ dispatch mailing list dispatch@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/ma= ilman/listinfo/dispatch

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X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.538 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_MIME_NO_HTML_TAG=0.635, MIME_HTML_ONLY=0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=yandex.ru Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9AtAHIV-_I14 for ; Sun, 29 Mar 2020 11:08:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from forward100o.mail.yandex.net (forward100o.mail.yandex.net [37.140.190.180]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C3AAB3A07C3 for ; Sun, 29 Mar 2020 11:08:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mxback26j.mail.yandex.net (mxback26j.mail.yandex.net [IPv6:2a02:6b8:0:1619::226]) by forward100o.mail.yandex.net (Yandex) with ESMTP id C64BA4AC0E0F for ; Sun, 29 Mar 2020 21:08:33 +0300 (MSK) Received: from localhost (localhost [::1]) by mxback26j.mail.yandex.net (mxback/Yandex) with ESMTP id NFQppyiUKs-8X0KBTNj; Sun, 29 Mar 2020 21:08:33 +0300 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yandex.ru; s=mail; t=1585505313; bh=mKvC29ylttZ4VWDuklrQVC7pct/5E+4ZZPn+Zc1O1dw=; h=Message-Id:Date:Subject:To:From; b=k68FEmBcAowBuSB3JA9ie/d6d26jq8UwYNyNorUtIGdekhF0R2SofpjpGWGG9/uNV v2lBZ2iKRUbSFGEo2Kww28EeqpF+Ojibkes8GuEC8ET7tjfZrRwjNBJuDjEuZiGfET U3ZnouiOBqey+g2GbXQwb/50qtA/mzSOg6h3mTHw= Authentication-Results: mxback26j.mail.yandex.net; dkim=pass header.i=@yandex.ru Received: by sas1-438a02fc058e.qloud-c.yandex.net with HTTP; Sun, 29 Mar 2020 21:08:33 +0300 From: Anton Tveretin To: DISPATCH list MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Yamail [ http://yandex.ru ] 5.0 Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2020 23:08:33 +0500 Message-Id: <3758421585501214@sas1-2bf44b70450e.qloud-c.yandex.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/html Archived-At: Subject: [dispatch] E-mail security X-BeenThere: dispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DISPATCH Working Group Mail List List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2020 18:08:39 -0000
Hello All,
I remember when only ISPs gave mailboxes... Then "free" mail providers appeared.
Still, gmail.com is clearest indication of spam... and I know my messages get into gmail spam lists.
DKIM is used originally by gmail.com etc., so it was indication of spam. Now, it seems that legitimate ISPs also use it.
Anyway, I do not see any benefit in asserting a domain, if it is a public provider (esp. free). There is also little help for private "corporate" domains.
Sincerely yours,
Anton.