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From: "Cartwright, Ken" <kcartwright@tnsi.com>
To: Dean Willis <dean.willis@softarmor.com>
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 09:41:48 -0400
Thread-Topic: [drinks] security considerations...
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Subject: Re: [drinks] security considerations...
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We don't want to put data elements into the protocol just to allow someone =
to use some tool to generate code.  That would be the tail wagging the dog.=
  Furthermore, there are already other tools that can generate DB schemas a=
nd/or ORM code that can be used for that, irrespective of whether or not a =
data element is in the protocol.  But with respect to this specific data el=
ement, this discussion is OBE, since the folks asking to have that data ele=
ment removed have agreed to add it back in.

Ken

-----Original Message-----
From: Dean Willis [mailto:dean.willis@softarmor.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 1:54 AM
To: Cartwright, Ken
Cc: Ali, Syed Wasim; drinks@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [drinks] security considerations...

On 8/31/11 12:00 PM, Cartwright, Ken wrote:

>
> KJC:  Not correct.  The protocol does not specify everything that is
> "stored".  SPPP does not define the DB schema.  You are free to
> store anything additional that you want.  In my implementation,
> regardless of what is in the protocol, I would store/track the rar
> that created each individual object.  And I would do this for
> multiple reasons, my authorization policies being one of the main
> ones.

The protocol does define the XSD which in turn defines OpenSPP's
programatically-generated inter-layer messaging, and in some cases the
actual database schema or parts thereof. Jeremy can add details on this;
perhaps I'm off-base.

My gSOAP code definitely uses the data types defined programatically by
gSOAP from the XSD.

I can certainly add parallel tables and messages, but it'sa a lot easier
to piggyback on the tool's automatic plumbing when the auth_ID is in the
payload.

--
Dean



This e-mail message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s)and may
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ices.
Any unauthorised review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If =
you
are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail a=
nd destroy all copies of the original message.


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To: "'Cartwright, Ken'" <kcartwright@tnsi.com>, "'Dean Willis'" <dean.willis@softarmor.com>
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Cc: drinks@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [drinks] security considerations...
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I want to stress that IMHO - two of the goals of the XSD is to provide
interoperability and validation. So it's just about support for
implementation tools.
Otherwise - too much would be left to different implementation preferences.
By having all the "nouns" clearly defined with   their constraints - we can
make sure that regardless of the  implementation, that these will be defined
uniformly across all implementations.

Jeremy Barkan

CTO
Digitalshtick
Tel: +972 2 6728069
Mobile: +972 54 6321603
Skype: jeremy_barkan
www.digitalshtick.com




-----Original Message-----
From: drinks-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:drinks-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
Cartwright, Ken
Sent: 01 September 2011 16:42
To: Dean Willis
Cc: drinks@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [drinks] security considerations...

We don't want to put data elements into the protocol just to allow someone
to use some tool to generate code.  That would be the tail wagging the dog.
Furthermore, there are already other tools that can generate DB schemas
and/or ORM code that can be used for that, irrespective of whether or not a
data element is in the protocol.  But with respect to this specific data
element, this discussion is OBE, since the folks asking to have that data
element removed have agreed to add it back in.

Ken

-----Original Message-----
From: Dean Willis [mailto:dean.willis@softarmor.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 1:54 AM
To: Cartwright, Ken
Cc: Ali, Syed Wasim; drinks@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [drinks] security considerations...

On 8/31/11 12:00 PM, Cartwright, Ken wrote:

>
> KJC:  Not correct.  The protocol does not specify everything that is 
> "stored".  SPPP does not define the DB schema.  You are free to store 
> anything additional that you want.  In my implementation, regardless 
> of what is in the protocol, I would store/track the rar that created 
> each individual object.  And I would do this for multiple reasons, my 
> authorization policies being one of the main ones.

The protocol does define the XSD which in turn defines OpenSPP's
programatically-generated inter-layer messaging, and in some cases the
actual database schema or parts thereof. Jeremy can add details on this;
perhaps I'm off-base.

My gSOAP code definitely uses the data types defined programatically by
gSOAP from the XSD.

I can certainly add parallel tables and messages, but it'sa a lot easier to
piggyback on the tool's automatic plumbing when the auth_ID is in the
payload.

--
Dean



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contain confidential and privileged information of Transaction Network
Services.
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you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply
e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message.

_______________________________________________
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drinks@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/drinks


From kcartwright@tnsi.com  Thu Sep  1 10:26:28 2011
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From: "Cartwright, Ken" <kcartwright@tnsi.com>
To: "Jeremy Barkan (Digitalshtick)" <jeremyb@digitalshtick.com>, 'Dean Willis' <dean.willis@softarmor.com>
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 13:27:53 -0400
Thread-Topic: [drinks] security considerations...
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Ok.  But just to be clear, we're not discussing nouns or verbs.  We're disc=
ussing whether an additional data element needed to be in the protocol or n=
ot.

Ken

-----Original Message-----
From: Jeremy Barkan (Digitalshtick) [mailto:jeremyb@digitalshtick.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 1:20 PM
To: Cartwright, Ken; 'Dean Willis'
Cc: drinks@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [drinks] security considerations...

I want to stress that IMHO - two of the goals of the XSD is to provide
interoperability and validation. So it's just about support for
implementation tools.
Otherwise - too much would be left to different implementation preferences.
By having all the "nouns" clearly defined with   their constraints - we can
make sure that regardless of the  implementation, that these will be define=
d
uniformly across all implementations.

Jeremy Barkan

CTO
Digitalshtick
Tel: +972 2 6728069
Mobile: +972 54 6321603
Skype: jeremy_barkan
www.digitalshtick.com




-----Original Message-----
From: drinks-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:drinks-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
Cartwright, Ken
Sent: 01 September 2011 16:42
To: Dean Willis
Cc: drinks@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [drinks] security considerations...

We don't want to put data elements into the protocol just to allow someone
to use some tool to generate code.  That would be the tail wagging the dog.
Furthermore, there are already other tools that can generate DB schemas
and/or ORM code that can be used for that, irrespective of whether or not a
data element is in the protocol.  But with respect to this specific data
element, this discussion is OBE, since the folks asking to have that data
element removed have agreed to add it back in.

Ken

-----Original Message-----
From: Dean Willis [mailto:dean.willis@softarmor.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 1:54 AM
To: Cartwright, Ken
Cc: Ali, Syed Wasim; drinks@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [drinks] security considerations...

On 8/31/11 12:00 PM, Cartwright, Ken wrote:

>
> KJC:  Not correct.  The protocol does not specify everything that is
> "stored".  SPPP does not define the DB schema.  You are free to store
> anything additional that you want.  In my implementation, regardless
> of what is in the protocol, I would store/track the rar that created
> each individual object.  And I would do this for multiple reasons, my
> authorization policies being one of the main ones.

The protocol does define the XSD which in turn defines OpenSPP's
programatically-generated inter-layer messaging, and in some cases the
actual database schema or parts thereof. Jeremy can add details on this;
perhaps I'm off-base.

My gSOAP code definitely uses the data types defined programatically by
gSOAP from the XSD.

I can certainly add parallel tables and messages, but it'sa a lot easier to
piggyback on the tool's automatic plumbing when the auth_ID is in the
payload.

--
Dean



This e-mail message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s)and may
contain confidential and privileged information of Transaction Network
Services.
Any unauthorised review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If
you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply
e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message.

_______________________________________________
drinks mailing list
drinks@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/drinks


This e-mail message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s)and may
contain confidential and privileged information of Transaction Network Serv=
ices.
Any unauthorised review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If =
you
are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail a=
nd destroy all copies of the original message.


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Subject: [drinks] I-D Action: draft-ietf-drinks-sppp-over-soap-05.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies. This draft is a work item of the Data for Reachability of Inter/tra-Ne=
tworK SIP Working Group of the IETF.

	Title           : SPPP Over SOAP and HTTP
	Author(s)       : Kenneth Cartwright
	Filename        : draft-ietf-drinks-sppp-over-soap-05.txt
	Pages           : 19
	Date            : 2011-09-02

   The Session Peering Provisioning Protocol (SPPP) is an XML protocol
   that exists to enable the provisioning of session establishment data
   into Session Data Registries or SIP Service Provider data stores.
   Sending XML data structures over Simple Object Access Protocol (SOAP)
   and HTTP(s) is a widely used, de-facto standard for messaging between
   elements of provisioning systems.  Therefore the combination of SOAP
   and HTTP(s) as a transport for SPPP is a natural fit.  The obvious
   benefits include leveraging existing industry expertise, leveraging
   existing standards, and a higher probability that existing
   provisioning systems can be more easily integrated with this
   protocol.  This document describes the specification for transporting
   SPPP XML structures over SOAP and HTTP(s).


A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-drinks-sppp-over-soap-05.txt

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
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This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-drinks-sppp-over-soap-05.txt

From alexander.mayrhofer@nic.at  Wed Sep  7 08:19:26 2011
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From: Alexander Mayrhofer <alexander.mayrhofer@nic.at>
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Subject: [drinks] on internationalization.
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One of the action items from the interim was to look at
Internationalization in SPPP. I've looked at the Internationalization
text from EPP, and have only found general text, eg. in Section 5 of RFC
5731:

http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5733#section-5

That section explains that since EPP is based on XML, native Unicode
support is included, and also has some text on time/date values.

However, there are no additional constraints in EPP regarding the
contents of any field in the protocol. That means that - unless i've
overlooked something - EPP object data can include arbitrary Unicode
characters.=20

Repository object identifiers are, however, limited to "Word" characters
(using the XSD pattern facet limited to "\w" characters). The set of
characters that matches is pretty broad, though:

[#x0000-#x10FFFF]-[\p{P}\p{Z}\p{C}] (all characters except the set of
"punctuation", "separator" and "other" characters)

(from http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/REC-xmlschema-2-20041028/#dt-regex)

Therefore, to conclude, EPP allows for a broad range of characters in
identifiers, and since EPP has gone through IESG review successfully 3
times, i would suggest that we include a similiar "Internationalization
Considerations" section in the SPPP protocol document, and not try to
restrict fields more than EPP does.

comments are highly appreciated.

Alex

From stpeter@stpeter.im  Wed Sep  7 08:37:07 2011
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From: Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter@stpeter.im>
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Here is a start at some discussion of the topic...

On 9/7/11 9:21 AM, Alexander Mayrhofer wrote:
> One of the action items from the interim was to look at
> Internationalization in SPPP. 

First, what are you trying to achieve? Saying "internationalization" is
a bit like saying "security": it has many facets and often means
different things to different people.

> I've looked at the Internationalization
> text from EPP, and have only found general text, eg. in Section 5 of RFC
> 5731:
> 
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5733#section-5
> 
> That section explains that since EPP is based on XML, native Unicode
> support is included, and also has some text on time/date values.
> 
> However, there are no additional constraints in EPP regarding the
> contents of any field in the protocol. That means that - unless i've
> overlooked something - EPP object data can include arbitrary Unicode
> characters. 

To be precise, UTF-8-encoded Unicode code points. :)

See http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-appsawg-rfc3536bis-06 for a
helpful explanation of various i18n terms.

> Repository object identifiers are, however, limited to "Word" characters
> (using the XSD pattern facet limited to "\w" characters). The set of
> characters that matches is pretty broad, though:
> 
> [#x0000-#x10FFFF]-[\p{P}\p{Z}\p{C}] (all characters except the set of
> "punctuation", "separator" and "other" characters)
> 
> (from http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/REC-xmlschema-2-20041028/#dt-regex)
> 
> Therefore, to conclude, EPP allows for a broad range of characters in
> identifiers, 

Earlier you talked about fields in the protocol, now you are talking
about identifiers. Do you care more about identifiers than any other
kind of field? Is there a distinction here? What do you *do* with these
various fields and identifiers? Do you, for example, compare them? If
so, for what purposes (authentication, authorization, etc.)? What are
the implications if a comparison operation yields a false positive or a
false negative?

See http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-iab-identifier-comparison-00 for a
detailed discussion of these issues.

As to comparison of internationalized strings in application protocols,
please consult the work of the PRECIS WG to see if it is relevant here:

http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-precis-problem-statement-03

http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-precis-framework-00

If you are going to be comparing identifiers for purposes that have
security implications, then I think you will need to say something more
than "just use UTF-8".

> and since EPP has gone through IESG review successfully 3
> times, i would suggest that we include a similiar "Internationalization
> Considerations" section in the SPPP protocol document, and not try to
> restrict fields more than EPP does.

What is the relationship between EPP and SPPP? Does SPPP essentially
emulate EPP? If so, it might make sense to re-use some text from the EPP
spec. On the other hand, it's possible that i18n issues were not really
addressed in the EPP spec (despite surviving IESG review three times)
and that you might want to think about these issues anew for SPPP.

HTH,

Peter

-- 
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/

From internet-drafts@ietf.org  Thu Sep  8 19:36:00 2011
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Subject: [drinks] I-D Action: draft-ietf-drinks-spprov-10.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies. This draft is a work item of the Data for Reachability of Inter/tra-Ne=
tworK SIP Working Group of the IETF.

	Title           : Session Peering Provisioning Protocol
	Author(s)       : Jean-Francois Mule
                          Kenneth Cartwright
                          Syed Wasim Ali
                          Alexander Mayrhofer
	Filename        : draft-ietf-drinks-spprov-10.txt
	Pages           : 97
	Date            : 2011-09-08

   This document defines a protocol for provisioning session
   establishment data into Session Data Registries and SIP Service
   Provider data stores.  The provisioned data is typically used by
   various network elements for session peering.

   This document describes the Session Peering Provisioning Protocol
   used by clients to provision registries.  The document provides a set
   of guiding principles for the design of this protocol including
   extensibility and independent transport definitions, a basic data
   model and an XML Schema Document.


A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-drinks-spprov-10.txt

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-drinks-spprov-10.txt

From syed.ali@neustar.biz  Thu Sep  8 20:59:57 2011
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From: "Ali, Syed Wasim" <syed.ali@neustar.biz>
To: "drinks@ietf.org" <drinks@ietf.org>
Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2011 00:01:41 -0400
Thread-Topic: what's new in draft-ietf-drinks-spprov-10 
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--_000_CA8F07E516061syedalineustarbiz_
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Hi,

I submitted the latest draft of the SPP protocol document. Here is what new=
 in the document:

- Updates to Security Considerations
- "Time Value" section addresses value requirements for the SPPP objects
and doesn't belong to the transport requirements section. Moved it to the
"Protocol High Level Design" section.

Thanks,

-Syed

--_000_CA8F07E516061syedalineustarbiz_
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<html><head></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode:=
 space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><div><div style=3D"co=
lor: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; ">Hi,=
</div><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
font-size: 14px; "><br></div><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family=
: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; ">I submitted the latest draft of t=
he SPP protocol document. Here is what new in the document:</div><div style=
=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;=
 "><br></div><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-=
serif; font-size: 14px; "><div style=3D"font-family: Consolas; font-size: m=
edium; "><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri; ">- Updates to Security Consi=
derations</span></div><div style=3D"font-family: Consolas; font-size: mediu=
m; "><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri; ">- "Time Value" section addresse=
s value requirements for the SPPP objects</span></div><div style=3D"font-fa=
mily: Consolas; font-size: medium; "><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri; "=
>and doesn't belong to the transport requirements section. Moved it to the<=
/span></div><div style=3D"font-family: Consolas; font-size: medium; "><span=
 style=3D"font-family: Calibri; ">"Protocol High Level Design" section.</sp=
an></div></div><div><div><font><br></font></div><div><font>Thanks,<br></fon=
t></div><div><font><font><br></font></font></div></div></div></div><div><fo=
nt><font>-Syed</font></font></div></body></html>

--_000_CA8F07E516061syedalineustarbiz_--

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Thread-Topic: Meeting notes from the Interim
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From: Alexander Mayrhofer <alexander.mayrhofer@nic.at>
To: <drinks@ietf.org>
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Subject: [drinks] Meeting notes from the Interim
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All,

please find attached the draft meeting minutes from our virtual interim
meeting on Aug 31. Please review the notes, and suggest changes if you
think we missed something.

Notetakers were Syed, Sumanth and myself, draft notes compiled by
Sumanth and and myself - thanks to all involved in the interim meeting!

I have also attached the Chair's slide deck used during the session.

thanks,

Alex


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From: "Cartwright, Ken" <kcartwright@tnsi.com>
To: "drinks@ietf.org" <drinks@ietf.org>
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 15:46:49 -0400
Thread-Topic: Rafactoring SPPP to make it ReST Friendly
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Subject: [drinks] Rafactoring SPPP to make it ReST Friendly
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Syed and I meet for about 90 minutes today to talk through the details of t=
he impacts that result from making the protocol document ReST friendly.  I'=
ve summarized these impacts below in fairly good detail, so please review i=
t if you wish.  To kick off this effort I'm going to take on how to make th=
e changes described below under "A) Object Identity", and Syed is going to =
take on the changes below under "B) Response Codes and Response Data Struct=
ures".  After A and B are done, which, along with D, are the more involved =
tasks, we will tackle C, D, E, and F.

Ken

A) Object Identity
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
SPPP uses composite business keys to identity object instances.  There are =
SPPP XSD data structures like ObjKeyType that serve this purpose.  Object k=
eys are used to house relationships between objects and to query for (get) =
a specific object instance.  ReST controls how object identity (object keys=
) must be encoded/structured, using URIs.  So the SPPP XSD will need to be =
changed to support the use of either URIs or more traditional approaches su=
ch as that currently used by SPPP.  And this will have to work for both the=
 non-composite object relationship case and for the query/get case.  And th=
ese changes will impact the current structure of the SPPP "nouns".  So, mor=
e specifically, the following XSD data structures will need to change:

1) RteRecType  (because it identifies the DestGroups that is relates to)
2) PubIdType (because it identifies the DestGroup that it belongs to)
3) ObjKeyType (because it is not a ReST friendly structure for object ident=
ity)
4) The Data Structures that contain or depend on an ObjKeyType
   4.1) RteGrpOfferKeyType
   4.2) RteGrpOfferType
   4.3) EgressRteType
   4.4) RteRecRefType


B) Response Codes and Response Data Structures
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
ReST controls what response codes and the corresponding response messages t=
hat are available to the application, the HTTP response codes.  So SPPP's r=
esponse codes will have to be removed since ReST dictates that it is the HT=
TP protocol's response codes that are allowed.  The response codes will hav=
e to be moved to the "Transport" document.
SPPP's parameterized error response code message structures that define wha=
t data element of what object was found to be erroneous will have to be rem=
oved/changed since the HTTP response codes do not give you that level of de=
tail about what failed.  We will either have to punt on this capability or =
create a hybrid approach that can be hacked into ReST, such that response o=
bjects contain additional sub-response codes and data structures.
SPPP's response data structure, that incorporates an overall response code =
and, if there is an error, the data structure of the object that failed val=
idation will have to be watereddown/removed/changed.

So, more specifically, in addition to the response code definitions being c=
hanged and the parameterization of the response code messages being removed=
 and replaced with some other scheme, the XSD items that are likely to need=
 to be changes are:

1) ResultCodeType
2) RqstObjResultCodeType
3) spppUpdateResponse

C) Actions/Verbs/Operations
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D
The SPPP XSD currently defines the operations/verbs that can be performed o=
n each of the SPPP data model objects/nouns, and the required inputs and ou=
tputs of each.  But ReST controls what verbs are available to the applicati=
on (Put, Post, Get, Del), and provides no way of enforcing the allowable in=
put and output data structures for each.  So we will need to remove all ope=
rations/verbs and remove the specification of the required inputs and outpu=
ts for each operation/verb from the XSD.  These will now need to be documen=
ted just in textual form in the document.

D) Base Protocol Data Structures and Housekeeping Features
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
SPPP currently defines common request and response data structures that are=
 used for any type of operation/verb and any type of noun, and in-fact allo=
ws different verb and noun pairs to be passed into a single request.  This =
was done to allow any set of verb/noun pairs to be passed in and processed =
as a single transaction, all or nothing, giving the client optional control=
 over their transaction boundaries.  But because ReST uses the pre-determin=
ed verbs from HTTP (Post, Put, Get, Del), which is embedded inside the HTTP=
 envelope, this type of feature cannot be cleanly provided.  Furthermore, h=
ouse-keeping features such as clientTransId, serverTransId, minorVer are ho=
used within these base data structures.

So we will either say that a ReST implementation will just not support some=
 of these features, or restructure the following XSD data structures in som=
e way to allow some of them:

1) spppUpdateRequest
2) spppUpdateResponse
3) spppQueryRequest
4) spppQueryResponse
5) spppServerStatusRequest
6) spppServerStatusResponse


E) SPP "Protocol" Documentation Changes

And of course all of the above will require notable changes to the document=
 content itself.

F) SPP "Transport" Document Changes

And of course all of the above will require notable changes to the document=
 content itself because they push mofer of the specification out of the "Pr=
otocol" document and up into the "Transport" document.


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<div class=3D"Section1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">Syed and I meet for about 90 minutes today to talk throu=
gh the details of the impacts that result from making the protocol document=
 ReST friendly. &nbsp;I&#8217;ve summarized
 these impacts below in fairly good detail, so please review it if you wish=
. &nbsp;To kick off this effort I&#8217;m going to take on how to make the =
changes described below under &#8220;A) Object Identity&#8221;, and Syed is=
 going to take on the changes below under &#8220;B) Response
 Codes and Response Data Structures&#8221;. &nbsp;After A and B are done, w=
hich, along with D, are the more involved tasks, we will tackle C, D, E, an=
d F.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">Ken<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">A) Object Identity<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<o:p></o=
:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">SPPP uses composite business keys to identity object ins=
tances. &nbsp;There are SPPP XSD data structures like ObjKeyType that serve=
 this purpose.&nbsp; Object keys are
 used to house relationships between objects and to query for (get) a speci=
fic object instance.&nbsp; ReST controls how object identity (object keys) =
must be encoded/structured, using URIs.&nbsp; So the SPPP XSD will need to =
be changed to support the use of either URIs
 or more traditional approaches such as that currently used by SPPP. &nbsp;=
And this will have to work for both the non-composite object relationship c=
ase and for the query/get case.&nbsp; And these changes will impact the cur=
rent structure of the SPPP &#8220;nouns&#8221;.&nbsp; So, more
 specifically, the following XSD data structures will need to change:<o:p><=
/o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">1) RteRecType&nbsp; (because it identifies the DestGroup=
s that is relates to)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">2) PubIdType (because it identifies the DestGroup that i=
t belongs to)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">3) ObjKeyType (because it is not a ReST friendly structu=
re for object identity)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">4) The Data Structures that contain or depend on an ObjK=
eyType<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">&nbsp;&nbsp; 4.1) RteGrpOfferKeyType<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">&nbsp;&nbsp; 4.2) RteGrpOfferType<o:p></o:p></span></fon=
t></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">&nbsp;&nbsp; 4.3) EgressRteType<o:p></o:p></span></font>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">&nbsp;&nbsp; 4.4) RteRecRefType<o:p></o:p></span></font>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">B) Response Codes and Response Data Structures<o:p></o:p=
></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<o:p></o:=
p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">ReST controls what response codes and the corresponding =
response messages that are available to the application, the HTTP response =
codes. &nbsp;So SPPP&#8217;s response
 codes will have to be removed since ReST dictates that it is the HTTP prot=
ocol&#8217;s response codes that are allowed.&nbsp; The response codes will=
 have to be moved to the &#8220;Transport&#8221; document.<o:p></o:p></span=
></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">SPPP&#8217;s parameterized error response code message s=
tructures that define what data element of what object was found to be erro=
neous will have to be removed/changed
 since the HTTP response codes do not give you that level of detail about w=
hat failed.&nbsp; We will either have to punt on this capability or create =
a hybrid approach that can be hacked into ReST, such that response objects =
contain additional sub-response codes
 and data structures.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">SPPP&#8217;s response data structure, that incorporates =
an overall response code and, if there is an error, the data structure of t=
he object that failed validation
 will have to be watereddown/removed/changed.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">So, more specifically, in addition to the response code =
definitions being changed and the parameterization of the response code mes=
sages being removed and replaced
 with some other scheme, the XSD items that are likely to need to be change=
s are:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">1) ResultCodeType<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">2) RqstObjResultCodeType<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">3) spppUpdateResponse<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">C) Actions/Verbs/Operations<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">The SPPP XSD currently defines the operations/verbs that=
 can be performed on each of the SPPP data model objects/nouns, and the req=
uired inputs and outputs of
 each.&nbsp; But ReST controls what verbs are available to the application =
(Put, Post, Get,
<st1:State w:st=3D"on"><st1:place w:st=3D"on">Del</st1:place></st1:State>),=
 and provides no way of enforcing the allowable input and output data struc=
tures for each. &nbsp;So we will need to remove all operations/verbs and re=
move the specification of the required inputs
 and outputs for each operation/verb from the XSD. &nbsp;These will now nee=
d to be documented just in textual form in the document.<o:p></o:p></span><=
/font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">D) Base Protocol Data Structures and Housekeeping Featur=
es<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">SPPP currently defines common request and response data =
structures that are used for any type of operation/verb and any type of nou=
n, and in-fact allows different
 verb and noun pairs to be passed into a single request.&nbsp; This was don=
e to allow any set of verb/noun pairs to be passed in and processed as a si=
ngle transaction, all or nothing, giving the client optional control over t=
heir transaction boundaries. &nbsp;But because
 ReST uses the pre-determined verbs from HTTP (Post, Put, Get, <st1:place w=
:st=3D"on">
<st1:State w:st=3D"on">Del</st1:State></st1:place>), which is embedded insi=
de the HTTP envelope, this type of feature cannot be cleanly provided. &nbs=
p;Furthermore, house-keeping features such as clientTransId, serverTransId,=
 minorVer are housed within these base
 data structures.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">So we will either say that a ReST implementation will ju=
st not support some of these features, or restructure the following XSD dat=
a structures in some way to
 allow some of them:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">1) spppUpdateRequest<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">2) spppUpdateResponse<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">3) spppQueryRequest<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">4) spppQueryResponse<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">5) spppServerStatusRequest<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">6) spppServerStatusResponse<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">E) SPP &#8220;Protocol&#8221; Documentation Changes<o:p>=
</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">And of course all of the above will require notable chan=
ges to the document content itself.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">F) SPP &#8220;Transport&#8221; Document Changes<o:p></o:=
p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">And of course all of the above will require notable chan=
ges to the document content itself because they push mofer of the specifica=
tion out of the &#8220;Protocol&#8221;
 document and up into the &#8220;Transport&#8221; document.<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<br>
<hr>
<font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"Gray" size=3D"1">This e-mail message is for t=
he sole use of the intended recipient(s)and may<br>
contain confidential and privileged information of Transaction Network Serv=
ices.<br>
Any unauthorised review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If =
you<br>
are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail a=
nd destroy all copies of the original message.<br>
<br>
</font>
</body>
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From sumanth@cablelabs.com  Tue Sep 13 14:33:25 2011
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To: "Drinks@ietf.org" <Drinks@ietf.org>
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 15:35:25 -0600
Thread-Topic: Rough Notes and AI list from the design team call on 9/8 
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IETF DRINKS DESIGN TEAM CALL=20
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D
9/8/2011, 10:00a-10:45a (Eastern)/8:00a-9:45a (Mountain)
=20
Participants
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
- Syed Ali
- Ken Cartwright

- Sumanth Channabasappa=20


ACTION ITEMS UPDATE
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

+ New & Pending
[David S., 9/2]      Present a proposal to allow for extensibility in an in=
teroperable manner                             -- no updates
[Chairs]                   Finalize a response to the ITU liaison statement=
 (https://datatracker.ietf.org/liaison/518/)  -- in progress
[Ken, Syed, 9/14] Present proposal to separate protocol and transport docum=
ent                                          -- new


+ Completed
[Alex, 9/2]     Propose considerations around internationalization
[Chairs, 9/8]   Check with the ADs (or IESG members) to see if we will need=
 to refine the current separation of protocol and transport documents
[Authors, 9/8]  Incorporate comments based on the discussions at the interi=
m



AGENDA
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
1. Follow-up on AIs
2. Discuss separation of protocol and transport documents
3. Next Steps


NOTES
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

1. Follow-up on AIs
- Completed (and pending) AIs are listed above

  =20
2. Discuss separation of protocol and transport documents
- At the interim meeting we had a long discussion around the current separa=
tion in the protocol and transport documents and how it may be limiting to =
future extensions, such as: RESTful web services. We had then recommended t=
hat we seek feedback from the AD and IESG to see if there were any opinions=
.=20
- The chairs checked offline and the response was for us to see if we can q=
uickly turnaround the documents to better separate the scope and content of=
 the two documents
- After further discussion around what this entails, Ken and Syed volunteer=
ed to take a stab at it.


3. Next Steps
- See AIs




From dean.willis@softarmor.com  Thu Sep 15 07:45:14 2011
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From: Dean Willis <dean.willis@softarmor.com>
To: drinks@ietf.org
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Subject: [drinks] Discussions on transactions in REST
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--20cf3005dc8268abd004acfbf491
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http://stackoverflow.com/questions/147207/transactions-in-rest

The question is whether really need multiple - operation transactions.

--20cf3005dc8268abd004acfbf491
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<p><a href="http://stackoverflow.com/questions/147207/transactions-in-rest">http://stackoverflow.com/questions/147207/transactions-in-rest</a></p>
<p>The question is whether really need multiple - operation transactions.</p>

--20cf3005dc8268abd004acfbf491--

From dean.willis@softarmor.com  Thu Sep 15 08:29:02 2011
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From: Dean Willis <dean.willis@softarmor.com>
To: drinks@ietf.org
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Subject: [drinks] Assuming we need multiple-operation transactions
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--20cf30334eb71a93f304acfc9126
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The current SPPP protocol allows transactions to contain multiple
data-manipulating operations.

In Quebec, we agreed that the entire transaction is atomic. In other words,
if any part of the transaction fails, then none of the operations in that
transaction are commuted to the persistent data store.

So if a transaction on an empty datbase looks like:

Start transaction
  AddDestGrp A
  AddDestGrp B
End transaction

and the AddDestGrp B part fails, then the datastore would contain neither
DestGtp A nor B.

In other words, the transaction is atomic at the SPPP level.

But having the transaction be atomic at the SPPP level says absolutely
nothing about the binding between SPPP and an implementation protocol like
HTTP.

An implementation could validly model the SPPP transaction above as a single
operation or as multiple dependent operations. For example:

CREATE transaction 123FTY
APPEND "AddDestGrp A" to 123FTY
APPEND "AddDestGrp B" to 123FTY
DO 123FTY

Some implementation protocols might require breaking up the transaction this
way. Others might not allow it.

Consequently, the top level SPPP document must require neither modality. It
defines only what the transaction means at the SPPP level, not how they are
mapped into implementation-protocol transactions.

In practical terms, this means that while SPPP must be implentable in a
RESTful manner, that there is no hard requirement in the SPPP spec that each
SPPP transaction map to a single HTTP operation.

--20cf30334eb71a93f304acfc9126
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<p>The current SPPP protocol allows transactions to contain multiple data-m=
anipulating operations.</p>
<p>In Quebec, we agreed that the entire transaction is atomic. In other wor=
ds, if any part of the transaction fails, then none of the operations in th=
at transaction are commuted to the persistent data store.</p>
<p>So if a transaction on an empty datbase looks like:</p>
<p>Start transaction<br>
=A0 AddDestGrp A<br>
=A0 AddDestGrp B<br>
End transaction</p>
<p>and the AddDestGrp B part fails, then the datastore would contain neithe=
r DestGtp A nor B.</p>
<p>In other words, the transaction is atomic at the SPPP level.<br></p>
<p>But having the transaction be atomic at the SPPP level says absolutely n=
othing about the binding between SPPP and an implementation protocol like H=
TTP.</p>
<p>An implementation could validly model the SPPP transaction above as a si=
ngle operation or as multiple dependent operations. For example:</p>
<p>CREATE transaction 123FTY<br>
APPEND &quot;AddDestGrp A&quot; to 123FTY<br>
APPEND &quot;AddDestGrp B&quot; to 123FTY<br>
DO 123FTY</p>
<p>Some implementation protocols might require breaking up the transaction =
this way. Others might not allow it.</p>
<p>Consequently, the top level SPPP document must require neither modality.=
 It defines only what the transaction means at the SPPP level, not how they=
 are mapped into implementation-protocol transactions.</p>
<p>In practical terms, this means that while SPPP must be implentable in a =
RESTful manner, that there is no hard requirement in the SPPP spec that eac=
h SPPP transaction map to a single HTTP operation. </p>

--20cf30334eb71a93f304acfc9126--

From kcartwright@tnsi.com  Thu Sep 15 08:29:51 2011
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From: "Cartwright, Ken" <kcartwright@tnsi.com>
To: "drinks@ietf.org" <drinks@ietf.org>
Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 11:34:52 -0400
Thread-Topic: [drinks] Discussions on transactions in REST
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So you're suggesting that we drop this very useful feature from the require=
ments and from the protocol, just because classic ReST, which is not even t=
he preferred API technology for SPPP, does not cleanly support it?  That wo=
uld again be the tail wagging the dog.

This use case, among others, is one that is well known to not work well wit=
h classic ReST, and is a symptom of the fact that HTTP verbs and response c=
odes were not designed to be (or to be part of) some all-purpose applicatio=
n-level API.  Many application APIs can be forced to fit into the classic R=
eST model, but not all of them fit in cleanly.  But the fact that your appl=
ication does not fit cleanly into classic ReST certainly does not mean that=
 you should start removing nice and necessary features from your applicatio=
n.

Ken

________________________________
From: drinks-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:drinks-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of=
 Dean Willis
Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2011 10:47 AM
To: drinks@ietf.org
Subject: [drinks] Discussions on transactions in REST


http://stackoverflow.com/questions/147207/transactions-in-rest

The question is whether really need multiple - operation transactions.

________________________________
This e-mail message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s)and may
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<div class=3D"Section1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">So you&#8217;re suggesting that we dro=
p this very useful feature from the requirements and from the protocol, jus=
t because classic ReST, which
 is not even the preferred API technology for SPPP, does not cleanly suppor=
t it?&nbsp; That would again be the tail wagging the dog.<o:p></o:p></span>=
</font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">This use case, among others, is one th=
at is well known to not work well with classic ReST, and is a symptom of th=
e fact that HTTP verbs
 and response codes were not designed to be (or to be part of) some all-pur=
pose application-level API.&nbsp; Many application APIs can be forced to fi=
t into the classic ReST model, but not all of them fit in cleanly. &nbsp;Bu=
t the fact that your application does not
 fit cleanly into classic ReST certainly does not mean that you should star=
t removing nice and necessary features from your application.<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Ken<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><font=
 size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center" tabindex=3D"-1">
</span></font></div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Tahoma"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold">From:</span></font></b><font size=3D"2=
" face=3D"Tahoma"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma"> drin=
ks-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:drinks-bounces@ietf.org]
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">On Behalf Of </span></b>Dean Willis<br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Thursday, September 15=
, 2011 10:47 AM<br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName w:st=3D"=
on">drinks@ietf.org</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> [drinks] Discussion=
s on transactions in REST</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:
12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0p=
t"><a href=3D"http://stackoverflow.com/questions/147207/transactions-in-res=
t">http://stackoverflow.com/questions/147207/transactions-in-rest</a><o:p><=
/o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0p=
t">The question is whether really need multiple - operation transactions.<o=
:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<br>
<hr>
<font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"Gray" size=3D"1">This e-mail message is for t=
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Any unauthorised review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If =
you<br>
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From: "Cartwright, Ken" <kcartwright@tnsi.com>
To: "drinks@ietf.org" <drinks@ietf.org>
Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 13:01:08 -0400
Thread-Topic: Rafactoring SPPP to make it ReST Friendly
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Today we jumped the gun a bit and tried to have a meaningful discussion on =
item D below, even though not a lot of meaningful thought had been put into=
 it.  But I believe the "solution" to Item D below, which I also hint at in=
 the description of item D, is to just not have those XSD data structures (=
the ones that currently enable any set of verb/noun pairs to be passed in a=
nd processed as a single request/transaction) be part of the "protocol" doc=
ument's XSD.  How (and if) that feature will be provided will just not be s=
pecified in the "protocol" document.  If an author wants to write a ReST sp=
ecification they can just decide if they even want to provide that feature,=
 and if so, how they want to do it. And for SOAP, the SOAP "transport" docu=
ment will contribute those data structures (probably in a form somewhat mod=
ified from what we have now) via a separate XSD to provide that feature.

Ken

________________________________
From: Cartwright, Ken
Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2011 3:47 PM
To: drinks@ietf.org
Subject: Rafactoring SPPP to make it ReST Friendly

Syed and I meet for about 90 minutes today to talk through the details of t=
he impacts that result from making the protocol document ReST friendly.  I'=
ve summarized these impacts below in fairly good detail, so please review i=
t if you wish.  To kick off this effort I'm going to take on how to make th=
e changes described below under "A) Object Identity", and Syed is going to =
take on the changes below under "B) Response Codes and Response Data Struct=
ures".  After A and B are done, which, along with D, are the more involved =
tasks, we will tackle C, D, E, and F.

Ken

A) Object Identity
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
SPPP uses composite business keys to identity object instances.  There are =
SPPP XSD data structures like ObjKeyType that serve this purpose.  Object k=
eys are used to house relationships between objects and to query for (get) =
a specific object instance.  ReST controls how object identity (object keys=
) must be encoded/structured, using URIs.  So the SPPP XSD will need to be =
changed to support the use of either URIs or more traditional approaches su=
ch as that currently used by SPPP.  And this will have to work for both the=
 non-composite object relationship case and for the query/get case.  And th=
ese changes will impact the current structure of the SPPP "nouns".  So, mor=
e specifically, the following XSD data structures will need to change:

1) RteRecType  (because it identifies the DestGroups that is relates to)
2) PubIdType (because it identifies the DestGroup that it belongs to)
3) ObjKeyType (because it is not a ReST friendly structure for object ident=
ity)
4) The Data Structures that contain or depend on an ObjKeyType
   4.1) RteGrpOfferKeyType
   4.2) RteGrpOfferType
   4.3) EgressRteType
   4.4) RteRecRefType


B) Response Codes and Response Data Structures
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
ReST controls what response codes and the corresponding response messages t=
hat are available to the application, the HTTP response codes.  So SPPP's r=
esponse codes will have to be removed since ReST dictates that it is the HT=
TP protocol's response codes that are allowed.  The response codes will hav=
e to be moved to the "Transport" document.
SPPP's parameterized error response code message structures that define wha=
t data element of what object was found to be erroneous will have to be rem=
oved/changed since the HTTP response codes do not give you that level of de=
tail about what failed.  We will either have to punt on this capability or =
create a hybrid approach that can be hacked into ReST, such that response o=
bjects contain additional sub-response codes and data structures.
SPPP's response data structure, that incorporates an overall response code =
and, if there is an error, the data structure of the object that failed val=
idation will have to be watereddown/removed/changed.

So, more specifically, in addition to the response code definitions being c=
hanged and the parameterization of the response code messages being removed=
 and replaced with some other scheme, the XSD items that are likely to need=
 to be changes are:

1) ResultCodeType
2) RqstObjResultCodeType
3) spppUpdateResponse

C) Actions/Verbs/Operations
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D
The SPPP XSD currently defines the operations/verbs that can be performed o=
n each of the SPPP data model objects/nouns, and the required inputs and ou=
tputs of each.  But ReST controls what verbs are available to the applicati=
on (Put, Post, Get, Del), and provides no way of enforcing the allowable in=
put and output data structures for each.  So we will need to remove all ope=
rations/verbs and remove the specification of the required inputs and outpu=
ts for each operation/verb from the XSD.  These will now need to be documen=
ted just in textual form in the document.

D) Base Protocol Data Structures and Housekeeping Features
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
SPPP currently defines common request and response data structures that are=
 used for any type of operation/verb and any type of noun, and in-fact allo=
ws different verb and noun pairs to be passed into a single request.  This =
was done to allow any set of verb/noun pairs to be passed in and processed =
as a single transaction, all or nothing, giving the client optional control=
 over their transaction boundaries.  But because ReST uses the pre-determin=
ed verbs from HTTP (Post, Put, Get, Del), which is embedded inside the HTTP=
 envelope, this type of feature cannot be cleanly provided.  Furthermore, h=
ouse-keeping features such as clientTransId, serverTransId, minorVer are ho=
used within these base data structures.

So we will either say that a ReST implementation will just not support some=
 of these features, or restructure the following XSD data structures in som=
e way to allow some of them:

1) spppUpdateRequest
2) spppUpdateResponse
3) spppQueryRequest
4) spppQueryResponse
5) spppServerStatusRequest
6) spppServerStatusResponse


E) SPP "Protocol" Documentation Changes

And of course all of the above will require notable changes to the document=
 content itself.

F) SPP "Transport" Document Changes

And of course all of the above will require notable changes to the document=
 content itself because they push mofer of the specification out of the "Pr=
otocol" document and up into the "Transport" document.


________________________________
This e-mail message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s)and may
contain confidential and privileged information of Transaction Network Serv=
ices.
Any unauthorised review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If =
you
are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail a=
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<div class=3D"Section1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">Today we jumped the gun a bit and tried to have a meanin=
gful discussion on item D below, even though not a lot of meaningful though=
t had been put into it. &nbsp;But
 I believe the &#8220;solution&#8221; to Item D below, which I also hint at=
 in the description of item D, is to just not have those XSD data structure=
s (the ones that currently enable any set of verb/noun pairs to be passed i=
n and processed as a single request/transaction)
 be part of the &#8220;protocol&#8221; document&#8217;s XSD. &nbsp;How (and=
 if) that feature will be provided will just not be specified in the &#8220=
;protocol&#8221; document.&nbsp; If an author wants to write a ReST specifi=
cation they can just decide if they even want to provide that feature, and
 if so, how they want to do it. And for SOAP, the SOAP &#8220;transport&#82=
21; document will contribute those data structures (probably in a form some=
what modified from what we have now) via a separate XSD to provide that fea=
ture.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">Ken<font color=3D"navy"><span style=3D"color:navy"><o:p>=
</o:p></span></font></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><font=
 size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center" tabindex=3D"-1">
</span></font></div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Tahoma"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold">From:</span></font></b><font size=3D"2=
" face=3D"Tahoma"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma"> Cart=
wright, Ken
<br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, September 13,=
 2011 3:47 PM<br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName w:st=3D"=
on">drinks@ietf.org</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> Rafactoring SPPP to=
 make it ReST Friendly</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:
12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">Syed and I meet for about 90 minutes today to talk throu=
gh the details of the impacts that result from making the protocol document=
 ReST friendly. &nbsp;I&#8217;ve summarized
 these impacts below in fairly good detail, so please review it if you wish=
. &nbsp;To kick off this effort I&#8217;m going to take on how to make the =
changes described below under &#8220;A) Object Identity&#8221;, and Syed is=
 going to take on the changes below under &#8220;B) Response
 Codes and Response Data Structures&#8221;. &nbsp;After A and B are done, w=
hich, along with D, are the more involved tasks, we will tackle C, D, E, an=
d F.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">Ken<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">A) Object Identity<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<o:p></o=
:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">SPPP uses composite business keys to identity object ins=
tances. &nbsp;There are SPPP XSD data structures like ObjKeyType that serve=
 this purpose.&nbsp; Object keys are
 used to house relationships between objects and to query for (get) a speci=
fic object instance.&nbsp; ReST controls how object identity (object keys) =
must be encoded/structured, using URIs.&nbsp; So the SPPP XSD will need to =
be changed to support the use of either URIs
 or more traditional approaches such as that currently used by SPPP. &nbsp;=
And this will have to work for both the non-composite object relationship c=
ase and for the query/get case.&nbsp; And these changes will impact the cur=
rent structure of the SPPP &#8220;nouns&#8221;.&nbsp; So, more
 specifically, the following XSD data structures will need to change:<o:p><=
/o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">1) RteRecType&nbsp; (because it identifies the DestGroup=
s that is relates to)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">2) PubIdType (because it identifies the DestGroup that i=
t belongs to)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">3) ObjKeyType (because it is not a ReST friendly structu=
re for object identity)<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">4) The Data Structures that contain or depend on an ObjK=
eyType<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">&nbsp;&nbsp; 4.1) RteGrpOfferKeyType<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">&nbsp;&nbsp; 4.2) RteGrpOfferType<o:p></o:p></span></fon=
t></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">&nbsp;&nbsp; 4.3) EgressRteType<o:p></o:p></span></font>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">&nbsp;&nbsp; 4.4) RteRecRefType<o:p></o:p></span></font>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">B) Response Codes and Response Data Structures<o:p></o:p=
></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<o:p></o:=
p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">ReST controls what response codes and the corresponding =
response messages that are available to the application, the HTTP response =
codes. &nbsp;So SPPP&#8217;s response
 codes will have to be removed since ReST dictates that it is the HTTP prot=
ocol&#8217;s response codes that are allowed.&nbsp; The response codes will=
 have to be moved to the &#8220;Transport&#8221; document.<o:p></o:p></span=
></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">SPPP&#8217;s parameterized error response code message s=
tructures that define what data element of what object was found to be erro=
neous will have to be removed/changed
 since the HTTP response codes do not give you that level of detail about w=
hat failed.&nbsp; We will either have to punt on this capability or create =
a hybrid approach that can be hacked into ReST, such that response objects =
contain additional sub-response codes
 and data structures.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">SPPP&#8217;s response data structure, that incorporates =
an overall response code and, if there is an error, the data structure of t=
he object that failed validation
 will have to be watereddown/removed/changed.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">So, more specifically, in addition to the response code =
definitions being changed and the parameterization of the response code mes=
sages being removed and replaced
 with some other scheme, the XSD items that are likely to need to be change=
s are:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">1) ResultCodeType<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">2) RqstObjResultCodeType<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">3) spppUpdateResponse<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">C) Actions/Verbs/Operations<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">The SPPP XSD currently defines the operations/verbs that=
 can be performed on each of the SPPP data model objects/nouns, and the req=
uired inputs and outputs of
 each.&nbsp; But ReST controls what verbs are available to the application =
(Put, Post, Get,
<st1:place w:st=3D"on"><st1:State w:st=3D"on">Del</st1:State></st1:place>),=
 and provides no way of enforcing the allowable input and output data struc=
tures for each. &nbsp;So we will need to remove all operations/verbs and re=
move the specification of the required inputs
 and outputs for each operation/verb from the XSD. &nbsp;These will now nee=
d to be documented just in textual form in the document.<o:p></o:p></span><=
/font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">D) Base Protocol Data Structures and Housekeeping Featur=
es<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">SPPP currently defines common request and response data =
structures that are used for any type of operation/verb and any type of nou=
n, and in-fact allows different
 verb and noun pairs to be passed into a single request.&nbsp; This was don=
e to allow any set of verb/noun pairs to be passed in and processed as a si=
ngle transaction, all or nothing, giving the client optional control over t=
heir transaction boundaries. &nbsp;But because
 ReST uses the pre-determined verbs from HTTP (Post, Put, Get, <st1:place w=
:st=3D"on">
<st1:State w:st=3D"on">Del</st1:State></st1:place>), which is embedded insi=
de the HTTP envelope, this type of feature cannot be cleanly provided. &nbs=
p;Furthermore, house-keeping features such as clientTransId, serverTransId,=
 minorVer are housed within these base
 data structures.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">So we will either say that a ReST implementation will ju=
st not support some of these features, or restructure the following XSD dat=
a structures in some way to
 allow some of them:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">1) spppUpdateRequest<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">2) spppUpdateResponse<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">3) spppQueryRequest<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">4) spppQueryResponse<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">5) spppServerStatusRequest<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">6) spppServerStatusResponse<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">E) SPP &#8220;Protocol&#8221; Documentation Changes<o:p>=
</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">And of course all of the above will require notable chan=
ges to the document content itself.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">F) SPP &#8220;Transport&#8221; Document Changes<o:p></o:=
p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial">And of course all of the above will require notable chan=
ges to the document content itself because they push mofer of the specifica=
tion out of the &#8220;Protocol&#8221;
 document and up into the &#8220;Transport&#8221; document.<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<br>
<hr>
<font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"Gray" size=3D"1">This e-mail message is for t=
he sole use of the intended recipient(s)and may<br>
contain confidential and privileged information of Transaction Network Serv=
ices.<br>
Any unauthorised review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If =
you<br>
are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail a=
nd destroy all copies of the original message.<br>
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From: "Ali, Syed Wasim" <syed.ali@neustar.biz>
To: Dean Willis <dean.willis@softarmor.com>, "drinks@ietf.org" <drinks@ietf.org>
Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 13:33:35 -0400
Thread-Topic: [drinks] Assuming we need multiple-operation transactions
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--_000_CA97AD7B167B2syedalineustarbiz_
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Dean,

Exposing the transaction handle opens up the system to the problem of "long=
 running transactions". There is plenty of literature on the internet that =
discusses this problem. Also, this also makes the system susceptible to DoS=
 attacks which I suspect IESG would not approve of. I don't think there is =
any size limit for the entity object in case there is a need to include man=
y commands within a single HTTP request, if that is part of the concern.

Thanks,

-Syed

From: Dean Willis <dean.willis@softarmor.com<mailto:dean.willis@softarmor.c=
om>>
Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2011 11:31:12 -0400
To: "drinks@ietf.org<mailto:drinks@ietf.org>" <drinks@ietf.org<mailto:drink=
s@ietf.org>>
Subject: [drinks] Assuming we need multiple-operation transactions


The current SPPP protocol allows transactions to contain multiple data-mani=
pulating operations.

In Quebec, we agreed that the entire transaction is atomic. In other words,=
 if any part of the transaction fails, then none of the operations in that =
transaction are commuted to the persistent data store.

So if a transaction on an empty datbase looks like:

Start transaction
  AddDestGrp A
  AddDestGrp B
End transaction

and the AddDestGrp B part fails, then the datastore would contain neither D=
estGtp A nor B.

In other words, the transaction is atomic at the SPPP level.

But having the transaction be atomic at the SPPP level says absolutely noth=
ing about the binding between SPPP and an implementation protocol like HTTP=
.

An implementation could validly model the SPPP transaction above as a singl=
e operation or as multiple dependent operations. For example:

CREATE transaction 123FTY
APPEND "AddDestGrp A" to 123FTY
APPEND "AddDestGrp B" to 123FTY
DO 123FTY

Some implementation protocols might require breaking up the transaction thi=
s way. Others might not allow it.

Consequently, the top level SPPP document must require neither modality. It=
 defines only what the transaction means at the SPPP level, not how they ar=
e mapped into implementation-protocol transactions.

In practical terms, this means that while SPPP must be implentable in a RES=
Tful manner, that there is no hard requirement in the SPPP spec that each S=
PPP transaction map to a single HTTP operation.

--_000_CA97AD7B167B2syedalineustarbiz_
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<html><head></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode:=
 space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><div><div style=3D"co=
lor: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; "><br=
></div><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;=
 font-size: 14px; ">Dean,</div><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-fami=
ly: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; "><br></div><div style=3D"color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; ">Exposing=
 the transaction handle opens up the system to the problem of "long running=
 transactions". There is plenty of literature on the internet that discusse=
s this problem. Also, this also makes the system susceptible to DoS attacks=
 which I suspect IESG would not approve of. I don't think there is any size=
 limit for the entity object in case there is a need to include many comman=
ds within a single HTTP request, if that is part of the concern.</div><div =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: =
14px; "><br></div><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; font-size: 14px; ">Thanks,</div><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; "><br></div><div sty=
le=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14p=
x; ">-Syed</div><div><div><font color=3D"#333333" face=3D"Arial" style=3D"f=
ont-size: 12px;"><b><br></b></font></div></div></div></div><span id=3D"OLK_=
SRC_BODY_SECTION" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 14px; font-famil=
y: Calibri, sans-serif; "><div style=3D"font-family:Calibri; font-size:11pt=
; text-align:left; color:black; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: me=
dium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORD=
ER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt"><sp=
an style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span> Dean Willis &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:dean.willis@softarmor.com">dean.willis@softarmor.com</a>&gt;<br><span st=
yle=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span> Thu, 15 Sep 2011 11:31:12 -0400<br><=
span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span> "<a href=3D"mailto:drinks@ietf.=
org">drinks@ietf.org</a>" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:drinks@ietf.org">drinks@iet=
f.org</a>&gt;<br><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span> [drinks]=
 Assuming we need multiple-operation transactions<br></div><div><br></div><=
p>The current SPPP protocol allows transactions to contain multiple data-ma=
nipulating operations.</p><p>In Quebec, we agreed that the entire transacti=
on is atomic. In other words, if any part of the transaction fails, then no=
ne of the operations in that transaction are commuted to the persistent dat=
a store.</p><p>So if a transaction on an empty datbase looks like:</p><p>St=
art transaction<br>
&nbsp; AddDestGrp A<br>
&nbsp; AddDestGrp B<br>
End transaction</p><p>and the AddDestGrp B part fails, then the datastore w=
ould contain neither DestGtp A nor B.</p><p>In other words, the transaction=
 is atomic at the SPPP level.<br></p><p>But having the transaction be atomi=
c at the SPPP level says absolutely nothing about the binding between SPPP =
and an implementation protocol like HTTP.</p><p>An implementation could val=
idly model the SPPP transaction above as a single operation or as multiple =
dependent operations. For example:</p><p>CREATE transaction 123FTY<br>
APPEND "AddDestGrp A" to 123FTY<br>
APPEND "AddDestGrp B" to 123FTY<br>
DO 123FTY</p><p>Some implementation protocols might require breaking up the=
 transaction this way. Others might not allow it.</p><p>Consequently, the t=
op level SPPP document must require neither modality. It defines only what =
the transaction means at the SPPP level, not how they are mapped into imple=
mentation-protocol transactions.</p><p>In practical terms, this means that =
while SPPP must be implentable in a RESTful manner, that there is no hard r=
equirement in the SPPP spec that each SPPP transaction map to a single HTTP=
 operation. </p></span></body></html>

--_000_CA97AD7B167B2syedalineustarbiz_--

From dean.willis@softarmor.com  Fri Sep 16 08:56:45 2011
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Subject: Re: [drinks] Discussions on transactions in REST
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On 9/15/11 10:34 AM, Cartwright, Ken wrote:
> So you’re suggesting that we drop this very useful feature from the
> requirements and from the protocol, just because classic ReST, which is
> not even the preferred API technology for SPPP, does not cleanly support
> it? That would again be the tail wagging the dog.
>
> This use case, among others, is one that is well known to not work well
> with classic ReST, and is a symptom of the fact that HTTP verbs and
> response codes were not designed to be (or to be part of) some
> all-purpose application-level API. Many application APIs can be forced
> to fit into the classic ReST model, but not all of them fit in cleanly.
> But the fact that your application does not fit cleanly into classic
> ReST certainly does not mean that you should start removing nice and
> necessary features from your application.


I'm not suggesting that we drop multi-operation transactions, just 
saying that if we believe we require them in all implementation 
protocols (and we seem to), then we need a "proof of existence" for 
mapping them onto other implementation protocols besides SOAP.

The approach we seem to be taking is to define SPPP as an "abstract 
protocol" that can be realized on any number of "implementation 
protocols". There were two sorts of decisions made in the original SPPP 
design that limited the set of "implementation protocols".

1) The SPPP abstract protocol document was too prescriptive in terms of 
key structure, response codes, etc. You and Syed are fixing this now, 
moving much of the structure from the abstract protocol document to the 
SOAP implementation protocol document. This is very cool.

2) As you point out, the rich transaction functionality of abstract SPPP 
MAY appear to make it difficult to map abstract SPPP onto some 
implementation protocols like RESTful HTTP.

Much of this perceived difficulty goes away if one accepts the premise 
that the mapping between the abstract SPPP protocol and any given 
implementation protocol does not necessarily have to be one-to-one. For 
example, the "verbs" of SPPP do not have to be mapped directly to the 
verbs of an implementation protocol. Nor does one SPPP request have to 
be mapped to exactly one operation in an implementation protocol. It is 
the OVERALL FUNCTIONALITY that has to be mapped.

IMPORTANT CONCLUSION AND GUIDING PRINCIPLES FOLLOW!

In other words, for any given SPPP transaction, the effect on the 
underlying data store MUST be the same, independently of which 
implementation protocol the SPPP transaction used, and also 
independently of whether that SPPP transaction used one operation at the 
implementation protocol, or one hundred operations. It's the result that 
counts.

Take for example multi-operation transactions in SPPP: It is apparent 
that they can be mapped onto RESTful HTTP using the design pattern given 
in the web-thread I referenced earlier in this discussion. The fact that 
this introduces a new implementation-specific "transaction" object" and 
that multiple RESTful operations on this transaction object are used to 
produce the results of an SPPP multi-operation transaction is irrelevant 
to either abstract SPPP or to the SPPP-SOAP binding.

We've shown that abstract SPPP, including multi-operation transactions, 
can be implemented in a sufficiently RESTful manner that at least some 
significant subset of REST advocates wouldn't claim is totally broken, 
and that other REST advocates would say is merely an existence proof 
that it's possible to implement the functionality using their definition 
of proper "REST".

This is a very good thing -- I believe it's good enough that we will be 
able to use it to prove to the IESG that the restructured documents pass 
the REST-test.

If I were building a RESTful API for SPPP, I'd probably do one entry 
point for each of the primitive data types (route groups, destination 
groups, etc.), a set of entry points for offers, accepts, and a separate 
"transaction" entry point set for doing multi-operation transactions 
that require a commit/rollback semantic. There are probably other ways 
to do it, but the fact that even a lightweight like me BELIEVES it can 
be done in a straightforward manner indicates that we're headed in the 
right direction.


--
Dean

From dean.willis@softarmor.com  Fri Sep 16 09:08:50 2011
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Subject: Re: [drinks] Assuming we need multiple-operation transactions
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On 9/15/11 12:33 PM, Ali, Syed Wasim wrote:

> Exposing the transaction handle opens up the system to the problem of
> "long running transactions". There is plenty of literature on the
> internet that discusses this problem. Also, this also makes the system
> susceptible to DoS attacks which I suspect IESG would not approve of. I
> don't think there is any size limit for the entity object in case there
> is a need to include many commands within a single HTTP request, if that
> is part of the concern.
>

My point is that this decision should be left to the designer of an 
implementation-protocol binding. It's not part of the problem-space of 
the abstract SPPP protocol.

Solving it (but only for SOAP) IS in the problem-space of an SPPP-SOAP 
binding.

The IESG has asked us to make sure that the abstract and binding 
documents are divided such that the abstract document is equally 
applicable to other bindings, such as REST.

We've shown at least one published technique by which multiple-operation 
transactions could be mapped to REST. That's enough to show that the 
abstract SPPP protocol is valid from an IESG perspective, assuming we 
don't have any other features in the "abstract" document that belong in 
a "binding" document instead.

If you want to design a SOAP-REST binding, then we can get into the 
debate on whether that binding should use transaction objects, or merely 
POST a sequence of operation descriptors for a transaction. I don't 
think "the group wants to do that right now, but I might be up for doing 
do it just as a thought exercise.


--
Dean

From sumanth@cablelabs.com  Fri Sep 16 15:33:36 2011
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Thread-Topic: Rough Notes and AI list from the design team call on 9/15
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Subject: [drinks] Rough Notes and AI list from the design team call on 9/15
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IETF DRINKS DESIGN TEAM CALL=20
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D
9/15/2011, 10:00a-11:00a (Eastern)/8:00a-9:00a (Mountain)
=20
Participants
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
- Ken Cartwright
- Manjul Maharishi
- Jeremy Barkan
- David Schwartz
- Dean Willis
- Syed Ali

- Sumanth Channabasappa=20


ACTION ITEMS UPDATE
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

+ New & Pending
[David S., 9/2]   Present a proposal to allow for extensibility in an inter=
operable manner                      -- no updates
[Chairs]          Finalize a response to the ITU liaison statement (https:/=
/datatracker.ietf.org/liaison/518/)  -- in progress, proposal sent to ADs


+ Completed
[Ken, Syed, 9/14] Present proposal to separate protocol and transport docum=
ent
[Alex, 9/2]     Propose considerations around internationalization
[Chairs, 9/8]   Check with the ADs (or IESG members) to see if we will need=
 to refine the current separation of protocol and transport documents
[Authors, 9/8]  Incorporate comments based on the discussions at the interi=
m


AGENDA
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
1. Follow-up on AIs
2. Discuss separation of protocol and transport documents
3. Next Steps


NOTES
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

1. Follow-up on AIs
- See update above


2. Discuss separation of protocol and transport documents
- Ken summarized the thoughts he sent via email (on 9/13) based on discussi=
ons between him and Syed. We had various discussions around the presented t=
opics.
- Sumanth reminded that the purpose of the separation is not to build a RES=
Tful web services approach (not in the charter), but to separate the protoc=
ol and transport such that one can specify a RESTful web services implement=
ation.
  > Dean and Ken indicated that we may not be able to avoid going deeper in=
to RESTful web services for we want to make sure that we can implement it t=
hat way
- Dean then presented some thoughts on transaction definitions and usage; w=
ill follow-up over email
- Dean also asked about the atomicity or not of operations
  > Syed and Sumanth clarified that, based on the discussion in Quebec, all=
 operations are considered "atomic" (i.e., all or nothing)
- Further discussion will continue on the list


3. Next Steps
- See AIs




From dean.willis@softarmor.com  Sun Sep 18 20:29:05 2011
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Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2011 22:31:23 -0500
From: Dean Willis <dean.willis@softarmor.com>
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Subject: Re: [drinks] Rafactoring SPPP to make it ReST Friendly
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On 9/15/11 12:01 PM, Cartwright, Ken wrote:
> Today we jumped the gun a bit and tried to have a meaningful discussion
> on item D below, even though not a lot of meaningful thought had been
> put into it. But I believe the “solution” to Item D below, which I also
> hint at in the description of item D, is to just not have those XSD data
> structures (the ones that currently enable any set of verb/noun pairs to
> be passed in and processed as a single request/transaction) be part of
> the “protocol” document’s XSD. How (and if) that feature will be
> provided will just not be specified in the “protocol” document. If an
> author wants to write a ReST specification they can just decide if they
> even want to provide that feature, and if so, how they want to do it.
> And for SOAP, the SOAP “transport” document will contribute those data
> structures (probably in a form somewhat modified from what we have now)
> via a separate XSD to provide that feature.

Okay, I've thought about this some more, and I think I like what I think 
you're saying.

Let me restate and see if I understand

We believe it should be easy to do single-operation transactions cleanly 
with pretty much any kind of implementation protocol.

However, doing the multi-operation transactions might be muddy in some 
implementation protocols. They're as clean as single-operation 
transactions in the existing SOAP case, because we've basically 
specified all transactions as sequences of zero or more operations. 
(Some people  prefer very-simple single-operation SOAP transactions as 
well as the sequence operations currently specified, and you might be 
doing something about that in the SOAP doc...)

But doing this sort of batch in a RESTful manner is a bit trickier, and 
requires either hacking on the edges of REST or inventing a 
"transaction" object or doing something else probably equally awkward. 
The same is probably true of other semantically-prescriptive protocols.

Therefore, we make the multiple-operation transaction optional in the 
abstract protocol (indeed, we could say nothing about them), and let 
implementation protocols provide a "batching" mechanism if they want to. 
Whether such a batch  is "atomic" (all operations complete OR all 
operations fail) or "incremental" (operations complete sequentially 
until the first operation fails, then the rest fail), or "independent" 
(any operations that can complete does) is left to the implementation 
protocol.

Does that sound right?

--
Dean

From sumanth@cablelabs.com  Fri Sep 23 11:55:20 2011
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From: Sumanth Channabasappa <sumanth@cablelabs.com>
To: "Drinks@ietf.org" <Drinks@ietf.org>
Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2011 12:57:51 -0600
Thread-Topic: [RAI] Global Service Provider ID - draft-pfautz-service-provider-identifier-urn-01
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Subject: [drinks] FW: [RAI] Global Service Provider ID - draft-pfautz-service-provider-identifier-urn-01
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I am forwarding this as an FYI. If you are interested in this discussion, p=
lease check the rai discussion list. See: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/list=
info/rai for archives and subscription.

- S

From: rai-bounces@ietf.org On Behalf Of PFAUTZ, PENN L
To: rai@ietf.org
Subject: [RAI] Global Service Provider ID - draft-pfautz-service-provider-i=
dentifier-urn-01

Following up on the discussion in dispatch at IETF 81 (www.ietf.org/proceed=
ings/81/minutes/dispatch.txt<http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/81/minutes/dis=
patch.txt>) I'd like to get some discussion of   draft-pfautz-service-provi=
der-identifier-urn-01 going.
The draft proposed IANA registration of a service provider ID (SPID) which =
would have the following characteristics:
-      Numeric ID, at least 8 digits long
-      Fixed length
-      Available to any type of entity
-      Entities able to obtain multiple identifiers.
-       Some range of identifiers reserved for internal usage
-      Open registration by IANA

The minutes concluded:

-      WG is in support of creating a URN for this.
-      Document(s) likely to be AD sponsored.
-      Discussion should move to RAI area list (as opposed to DRINKS or DIS=
PATCH).

The outstanding issues seemed to be
1. Is a new resource assignment necessary for the URN or could an existing =
one, Private Enterprise Numbers or ITADs be used with a URN defined to prov=
ide a fixed length parameter as requested in the I-D?

2. Assuming a fixed length parameter will be used, what's the right length?

The I-D proposed a new resource, partly because the existing ones were inte=
nded for other purposes and already had many registrations. I'd also note t=
hat PENs suggest a sub-delegation approach to assigning multiple SPIDs to a=
n entity (an entity gets one PEN assignment and can assign values hierarchi=
cally below that (e.g. AT&T has PEN 74, and would assign 74.1, 74.2, etc). =
Because at least some of the service providers wanted to use SPID to prefix=
 E.164 numbers and others want to incorporate SPID in a domain name, this w=
ould present issues.


Penn Pfautz
AT&T Access Management
+1-732-420-4962

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nk=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'c=
olor:#1F497D'>I am forwarding this as an FYI. If you are interested in this=
 discussion, please check the rai discussion list. See: <a href=3D"https://=
www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rai">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ra=
i</a> for archives and subscription.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNor=
mal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMs=
oNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>- S<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DM=
soNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><di=
v style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in=
 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"=
Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> rai-bounces@ietf.org <b>On Behalf Of </b>PFA=
UTZ, PENN L<br><b>To:</b> rai@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> [RAI] Global Serv=
ice Provider ID - draft-pfautz-service-provider-identifier-urn-01<o:p></o:p=
></span></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal>Following up on the discussion in dispatch at IETF 81 (<a href=
=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/81/minutes/dispatch.txt">www.ietf.org/p=
roceedings/81/minutes/dispatch.txt</a>) I&#8217;d like to get some discussi=
on of&nbsp; &nbsp;draft-pfautz-service-provider-identifier-urn-01 going.<o:=
p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>The draft proposed IANA registration of a =
service provider ID (SPID) which would have the following characteristics:<=
o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-=
.25in;mso-list:l1 level2 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'font-fam=
ily:"Arial","sans-serif"'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>&#8211;<span styl=
e=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></=
span></span><![endif]>Numeric ID, at least 8 digits long <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1=
 level2 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans=
-serif"'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>&#8211;<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "=
Times New Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span></span><![en=
dif]>Fixed length <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:=
1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level2 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><spa=
n style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore=
'>&#8211;<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp; </span></span></span><![endif]>Available to any type of entity <o=
:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.=
25in;mso-list:l1 level2 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'font-fami=
ly:"Arial","sans-serif"'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>&#8211;<span style=
=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></s=
pan></span><![endif]>Entities able to obtain multiple identifiers. <o:p></o=
:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;m=
so-list:l1 level2 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'font-family:"Ar=
ial","sans-serif"'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>&#8211;<span style=3D'fo=
nt:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span></=
span><![endif]>&nbsp;Some range of identifiers reserved for internal usage<=
o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-=
.25in;mso-list:l1 level2 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D'font-fam=
ily:"Arial","sans-serif"'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>&#8211;<span styl=
e=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></=
span></span><![endif]>Open registration by IANA<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMs=
oNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>The minutes concluded:<o:=
p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo4'><![i=
f !supportLists]><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><span sty=
le=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>&#8211;<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span></span><![endif]>WG is in supp=
ort of creating a URN for this. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=
=3D'margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo4'><![if !su=
pportLists]><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><span style=3D=
'mso-list:Ignore'>&#8211;<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span></span><![endif]>Document(s) likely=
 to be AD sponsored. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-le=
ft:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo4'><![if !supportLists]><=
span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ign=
ore'>&#8211;<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span></span><![endif]>Discussion should move to RAI a=
rea list (as opposed to DRINKS or DISPATCH). <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoN=
ormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>The outstanding issues seem=
ed to be<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>1. Is a new resource assignment=
 necessary for the URN or could an existing one, Private Enterprise Numbers=
 or ITADs be used with a URN defined to provide a fixed length parameter as=
 requested in the I-D?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</p><p class=3DMsoNormal>2. Assuming a fixed length parameter will be used,=
 what&#8217;s the right length?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nb=
sp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>The I-D proposed a new resource, partly b=
ecause the existing ones were intended for other purposes and already had m=
any registrations. I&#8217;d also note that PENs suggest a sub-delegation a=
pproach to assigning multiple SPIDs to an entity (an entity gets one PEN as=
signment and can assign values hierarchically below that (e.g. AT&amp;T has=
 PEN 74, and would assign 74.1, 74.2, etc). Because at least some of the se=
rvice providers wanted to use SPID to prefix E.164 numbers and others want =
to incorporate SPID in a domain name, this would present issues. <o:p></o:p=
></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-fam=
ily:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Penn Pfautz</span><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt=
;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMs=
oNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>A=
T&amp;T Access Management</span><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family=
:"Times New Roman","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><spa=
n style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>+1-732-420-49=
62</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></body></html>=

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From: "PFAUTZ, PENN L" <pp3129@att.com>
To: Sumanth Channabasappa <sumanth@cablelabs.com>, "Drinks@ietf.org" <Drinks@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [drinks] FW: [RAI] Global Service Provider ID - draft-pfautz-service-provider-identifier-urn-01
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Thanks Sumanth.  And if folks think this SPID would be a useful thing to ha=
ve, please weigh in accordingly.

Penn Pfautz
AT&T Access Management
+1-732-420-4962
From: drinks-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:drinks-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of=
 Sumanth Channabasappa
Sent: Friday, September 23, 2011 2:58 PM
To: Drinks@ietf.org
Subject: [drinks] FW: [RAI] Global Service Provider ID - draft-pfautz-servi=
ce-provider-identifier-urn-01

I am forwarding this as an FYI. If you are interested in this discussion, p=
lease check the rai discussion list. See: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/list=
info/rai for archives and subscription.

- S

From: rai-bounces@ietf.org On Behalf Of PFAUTZ, PENN L
To: rai@ietf.org
Subject: [RAI] Global Service Provider ID - draft-pfautz-service-provider-i=
dentifier-urn-01

Following up on the discussion in dispatch at IETF 81 (www.ietf.org/proceed=
ings/81/minutes/dispatch.txt<http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/81/minutes/dis=
patch.txt>) I'd like to get some discussion of   draft-pfautz-service-provi=
der-identifier-urn-01 going.
The draft proposed IANA registration of a service provider ID (SPID) which =
would have the following characteristics:
-      Numeric ID, at least 8 digits long
-      Fixed length
-      Available to any type of entity
-      Entities able to obtain multiple identifiers.
-       Some range of identifiers reserved for internal usage
-      Open registration by IANA

The minutes concluded:

-      WG is in support of creating a URN for this.
-      Document(s) likely to be AD sponsored.
-      Discussion should move to RAI area list (as opposed to DRINKS or DIS=
PATCH).

The outstanding issues seemed to be
1. Is a new resource assignment necessary for the URN or could an existing =
one, Private Enterprise Numbers or ITADs be used with a URN defined to prov=
ide a fixed length parameter as requested in the I-D?

2. Assuming a fixed length parameter will be used, what's the right length?

The I-D proposed a new resource, partly because the existing ones were inte=
nded for other purposes and already had many registrations. I'd also note t=
hat PENs suggest a sub-delegation approach to assigning multiple SPIDs to a=
n entity (an entity gets one PEN assignment and can assign values hierarchi=
cally below that (e.g. AT&T has PEN 74, and would assign 74.1, 74.2, etc). =
Because at least some of the service providers wanted to use SPID to prefix=
 E.164 numbers and others want to incorporate SPID in a domain name, this w=
ould present issues.


Penn Pfautz
AT&T Access Management
+1-732-420-4962

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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Thanks Sumanth.&nbsp; =
And if folks think this SPID would be a useful thing to have, please weigh =
in accordingly.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
color:#1F497D">Penn Pfautz</span><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-famil=
y:
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
color:#1F497D">AT&amp;T Access Management</span><span style=3D"font-size:12=
.0pt;
font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;
color:#1F497D">&#43;1-732-420-4962</span><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> drinks-b=
ounces@ietf.org [mailto:drinks-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Sumanth Channabasappa<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, September 23, 2011 2:58 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Drinks@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [drinks] FW: [RAI] Global Service Provider ID - draft-pfaut=
z-service-provider-identifier-urn-01<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">I am forwarding this a=
s an FYI. If you are interested in this discussion, please check the rai di=
scussion list. See:
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rai">https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/rai</a> for archives and subscription.<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">- S<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> rai-boun=
ces@ietf.org
<b>On Behalf Of </b>PFAUTZ, PENN L<br>
<b>To:</b> rai@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [RAI] Global Service Provider ID - draft-pfautz-service-pro=
vider-identifier-urn-01<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Following up on the discussion in dispatch at IETF 8=
1 (<a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/81/minutes/dispatch.txt">www.=
ietf.org/proceedings/81/minutes/dispatch.txt</a>) I&#8217;d like to get som=
e discussion of&nbsp; &nbsp;draft-pfautz-service-provider-identifier-urn-01
 going.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The draft proposed IANA registration of a service pr=
ovider ID (SPID) which would have the following characteristics:<o:p></o:p>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in"><span=
 style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&#8211;</sp=
an><span style=3D"font-size:
7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span>Numeric ID, at least 8 digits long <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in"><span=
 style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&#8211;</sp=
an><span style=3D"font-size:
7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span>Fixed length <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in"><span=
 style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&#8211;</sp=
an><span style=3D"font-size:
7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span>Available to any type of entity <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in"><span=
 style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&#8211;</sp=
an><span style=3D"font-size:
7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span>Entities able to obtain multiple identifiers. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in"><span=
 style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&#8211;</sp=
an><span style=3D"font-size:
7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span>&nbsp;Some range of identifiers reserved for internal usage<o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in"><span=
 style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&#8211;</sp=
an><span style=3D"font-size:
7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span>Open registration by IANA<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The minutes concluded:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in"><span=
 style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&#8211;</sp=
an><span style=3D"font-size:
7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span>WG is in support of creating a URN for this. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in"><span=
 style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&#8211;</sp=
an><span style=3D"font-size:
7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span>Document(s) likely to be AD sponsored. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in"><span=
 style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&#8211;</sp=
an><span style=3D"font-size:
7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span>Discussion should move to RAI area list (as opposed to DRINKS or DIS=
PATCH).
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The outstanding issues seemed to be<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">1. Is a new resource assignment necessary for the UR=
N or could an existing one, Private Enterprise Numbers or ITADs be used wit=
h a URN defined to provide a fixed length parameter as requested in the I-D=
?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">2. Assuming a fixed length parameter will be used, w=
hat&#8217;s the right length?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The I-D proposed a new resource, partly because the =
existing ones were intended for other purposes and already had many registr=
ations. I&#8217;d also note that PENs suggest a sub-delegation approach to =
assigning multiple SPIDs to an entity (an
 entity gets one PEN assignment and can assign values hierarchically below =
that (e.g. AT&amp;T has PEN 74, and would assign 74.1, 74.2, etc). Because =
at least some of the service providers wanted to use SPID to prefix E.164 n=
umbers and others want to incorporate
 SPID in a domain name, this would present issues. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Penn Pfautz</span><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;"><o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">AT&amp;T Access Management</span><span st=
yle=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif=
&quot;"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&#43;1-732-420-4962</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_38726EDA2109264987B45E29E758C4D6022834MISOUT7MSGUSR9NIT_--

From richard@shockey.us  Sat Sep 24 17:24:06 2011
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From: "Richard Shockey" <richard@shockey.us>
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Subject: Re: [drinks] FW: [RAI] Global Service Provider ID - draft-pfautz-service-provider-identifier-urn-01
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Please weigh in.  NOW!  It's important.   

 

It's no real problem to create a new namespace in IANA and this certainly
fits the definition.

 

You will all see the usual chatter about why you need to create a new name
space. Why doesn't ITAD's work etc but the business case for doing this
should be self evident and we will never be able to kill off Class 5
networks until something like this is in place.

 

Needless to say I totally support Penn's draft and DRINKS will be a
immediate beneficiary of this class of identifier.  This work has the
support of all of the global international carriers typically represented by
i3Forum etc but even speaking in my role as SIP Forum Chairman we totally
support this work. 

 

We have all seen how SPID's and Alt-SPIDs have made all IP  interconnection
easier in the North American market. This draft takes that concept to the
next logical step.

 

 

 

From: drinks-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:drinks-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
PFAUTZ, PENN L
Sent: Friday, September 23, 2011 3:00 PM
To: Sumanth Channabasappa; Drinks@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [drinks] FW: [RAI] Global Service Provider ID -
draft-pfautz-service-provider-identifier-urn-01

 

Thanks Sumanth.  And if folks think this SPID would be a useful thing to
have, please weigh in accordingly.

 

Penn Pfautz

AT&T Access Management

+1-732-420-4962

From: drinks-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:drinks-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
Sumanth Channabasappa
Sent: Friday, September 23, 2011 2:58 PM
To: Drinks@ietf.org
Subject: [drinks] FW: [RAI] Global Service Provider ID -
draft-pfautz-service-provider-identifier-urn-01

 

I am forwarding this as an FYI. If you are interested in this discussion,
please check the rai discussion list. See:
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rai for archives and subscription.

 

- S

 

From: rai-bounces@ietf.org On Behalf Of PFAUTZ, PENN L
To: rai@ietf.org
Subject: [RAI] Global Service Provider ID -
draft-pfautz-service-provider-identifier-urn-01

 

Following up on the discussion in dispatch at IETF 81
(www.ietf.org/proceedings/81/minutes/dispatch.txt) I'd like to get some
discussion of   draft-pfautz-service-provider-identifier-urn-01 going.

The draft proposed IANA registration of a service provider ID (SPID) which
would have the following characteristics:

-      Numeric ID, at least 8 digits long 

-      Fixed length 

-      Available to any type of entity 

-      Entities able to obtain multiple identifiers. 

-       Some range of identifiers reserved for internal usage

-      Open registration by IANA

 

The minutes concluded:

 

-      WG is in support of creating a URN for this. 

-      Document(s) likely to be AD sponsored. 

-      Discussion should move to RAI area list (as opposed to DRINKS or
DISPATCH). 

 

The outstanding issues seemed to be

1. Is a new resource assignment necessary for the URN or could an existing
one, Private Enterprise Numbers or ITADs be used with a URN defined to
provide a fixed length parameter as requested in the I-D?

 

2. Assuming a fixed length parameter will be used, what's the right length?

 

The I-D proposed a new resource, partly because the existing ones were
intended for other purposes and already had many registrations. I'd also
note that PENs suggest a sub-delegation approach to assigning multiple SPIDs
to an entity (an entity gets one PEN assignment and can assign values
hierarchically below that (e.g. AT&T has PEN 74, and would assign 74.1,
74.2, etc). Because at least some of the service providers wanted to use
SPID to prefix E.164 numbers and others want to incorporate SPID in a domain
name, this would present issues. 

 

 

Penn Pfautz

AT&T Access Management

+1-732-420-4962


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<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Please weigh in. &nbsp;NOW! &nbsp;It&#8217;s =
important.&nbsp;&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>It&#8217;s no real =
problem to create a new namespace in IANA and this certainly fits the =
definition.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>You will all see the =
usual chatter about why you need to create a new name space. Why =
doesn&#8217;t ITAD&#8217;s work etc but the business case for doing this =
should be self evident and we will never be able to kill off Class 5 =
networks until something like this is in place.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Needless to say I =
totally support Penn&#8217;s draft and DRINKS will be a immediate =
beneficiary of this class of identifier. &nbsp;This work has the support =
of all of the global international carriers typically represented by =
i3Forum etc but even speaking in my role as SIP Forum Chairman we =
totally support this work. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>We have all seen how =
SPID&#8217;s and Alt-SPIDs have made all IP &nbsp;interconnection easier =
in the North American market. This draft takes that concept to the next =
logical step.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
drinks-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:drinks-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On Behalf Of =
</b>PFAUTZ, PENN L<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, September 23, 2011 3:00 =
PM<br><b>To:</b> Sumanth Channabasappa; =
Drinks@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [drinks] FW: [RAI] Global Service =
Provider ID - =
draft-pfautz-service-provider-identifier-urn-01<o:p></o:p></span></p></di=
v></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Thanks Sumanth.&nbsp; =
And if folks think this SPID would be a useful thing to have, please =
weigh in accordingly.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'=
>Penn Pfautz</span><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times =
New Roman","serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'=
>AT&amp;T Access Management</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'=
>+1-732-420-4962</span><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
drinks-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:drinks-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On Behalf Of =
</b>Sumanth Channabasappa<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, September 23, 2011 =
2:58 PM<br><b>To:</b> Drinks@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> [drinks] FW: =
[RAI] Global Service Provider ID - =
draft-pfautz-service-provider-identifier-urn-01<o:p></o:p></span></p></di=
v></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>I am forwarding this as =
an FYI. If you are interested in this discussion, please check the rai =
discussion list. See: <a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rai">https://www.ietf.org/m=
ailman/listinfo/rai</a> for archives and =
subscription.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>- =
S<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
rai-bounces@ietf.org <b>On Behalf Of </b>PFAUTZ, PENN L<br><b>To:</b> =
rai@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> [RAI] Global Service Provider ID - =
draft-pfautz-service-provider-identifier-urn-01<o:p></o:p></span></p></di=
v></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Following up on the discussion in dispatch at IETF 81 =
(<a =
href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/81/minutes/dispatch.txt">www.ietf=
.org/proceedings/81/minutes/dispatch.txt</a>) I&#8217;d like to get some =
discussion of&nbsp; =
&nbsp;draft-pfautz-service-provider-identifier-urn-01 =
going.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>The draft proposed IANA =
registration of a service provider ID (SPID) which would have the =
following characteristics:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&#8211;</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>Numeric ID, at =
least 8 digits long <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&#8211;</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>Fixed length =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&#8211;</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>Available to any =
type of entity <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&#8211;</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>Entities able to =
obtain multiple identifiers. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&#8211;</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>&nbsp;Some range =
of identifiers reserved for internal usage<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&#8211;</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>Open registration =
by IANA<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>The minutes concluded:<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&#8211;</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>WG is in support =
of creating a URN for this. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&#8211;</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>Document(s) likely =
to be AD sponsored. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>&#8211;</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:7.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>Discussion should =
move to RAI area list (as opposed to DRINKS or DISPATCH). =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>The outstanding issues seemed to be<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>1. Is a new resource assignment necessary for the URN =
or could an existing one, Private Enterprise Numbers or ITADs be used =
with a URN defined to provide a fixed length parameter as requested in =
the I-D?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>2. Assuming a fixed length parameter will be used, =
what&#8217;s the right length?<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>The I-D =
proposed a new resource, partly because the existing ones were intended =
for other purposes and already had many registrations. I&#8217;d also =
note that PENs suggest a sub-delegation approach to assigning multiple =
SPIDs to an entity (an entity gets one PEN assignment and can assign =
values hierarchically below that (e.g. AT&amp;T has PEN 74, and would =
assign 74.1, 74.2, etc). Because at least some of the service providers =
wanted to use SPID to prefix E.164 numbers and others want to =
incorporate SPID in a domain name, this would present issues. =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Penn =
Pfautz</span><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>AT&amp;T =
Access Management</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>+1-732-420-49=
62</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></body></html>
------=_NextPart_000_0002_01CC7AF8.419A2180--


From alexander.mayrhofer@nic.at  Mon Sep 26 00:01:29 2011
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All,

we have decided to request a 90 minute session @ IETF 82 in Taipei,
since the structural changes to the protocol / transport document to
accomodate the abstraction requirements will probably delay the
documents up to that meeting.

In case we finish earlier, we can still cancel the slot.=20

Proposals for Agenda items (beyond the obvious discussion around the two
remaining working group documents) are appreciated.

thanks,

Alex


From alexander.mayrhofer@nic.at  Mon Sep 26 01:58:27 2011
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Subject: [drinks] Update regarding the ITU Study Group 2 Liaison (Ref: TD 71 (PLEN/2))
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We've just sent the following message as an update to the Liaison
between the DRINKS WG and ITU-T Study Group 2
(https://datatracker.ietf.org/liaison/518/):

--- snip ---

Update regarding the ITU Study Group 2 Liaison (Ref: TD 71 (PLEN/2))

Reference: ITU's Liaison from ITU-T SF plenary, 2 April 2009 to the IETF
Data for Reachability of Inter/tra-NetworK SIP Working Group (DRINKS WG)

The liaison statement brings to attention use cases and requirements
being discussed within the IETF DRINKS WG around a Global Service
Provider Identifier (G-SPID), for use with any efforts undertaken within
the ITU-T SG2 WG. The chairs of the DRINKS WG would like to update ITU-T
SG2 as follows:

As you may be aware, the DRINKS WG has three specific work items:
1. Use cases and requirements
(http://tools.ietf.org/wg/drinks/draft-ietf-drinks-usecases-requirements
/)
2. The Session Peering Provisioning Protocol, or SPPP
(http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-drinks-spprov)
3. SOAP-specific transport
(http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-drinks-sppp-over-soap)

The use case and requirements we have agreed to are listed in document
#1, above. Specifically, use case UC  SED EXCHANGE #3 describes the
mapping of public Identifiers (e.g., E.164 numbers) to administrative
domain identifiers. These identifier would not necessarily be
resolvable, but could then be used subsequently to query for such
information. The DRINKS WG has discussed the potential structure of such
an administrative domain identifier, which could be a G-SPID. During
those discussions, the DRINKS WG participants noted that similar
identifiers were already in use within the IETF - most prominently, the
Telephony Routing over IP (TRIP) IP Telephony Administrative Domain
(ITAD) Numbers
(http://www.iana.org/assignments/trip-parameters/trip-parameters.xml) as
well as the Private Enterprise Numbers
(http://www.iana.org/assignments/enterprise-numbers). We also discussed
the potential definition of such an identifier outside the IETF, such as
within the ITU-T.=20

During those discussions, the DRINKS working group identified the
following requirements on such a identifier:
- An identifier in the space must be globally unique
- Identifiers must be available to all SIP service providers, where this
definition include licensed communication service providers as well as
enterprises and other organizations, but also individuals who operate
their own SIP services; so, the identifier space must essentially be
available to the general public.=20
- The identifier space must be big enough to not be exhausted in the
foreseeable future

Discussions about the following properties were inconclusive:
- Whether the identifier space should allow for hierarchical structures,
so that a SIP service provider could a) create their own
sub-identifiers, and b) whether those sub-identifiers would have only
local meaning, or create a different identifier
- Whether any of the existing identifier spaces (see above) should be
utilized, or whether a new identifier space should be created.

In any case, the WG felt that it was not within our charter to choose,
or specify, such an identifier. The protocol definition, thus, leaves it
open to be specified outside of the DRINKS WG. This is done by
specifying a data field structured as an Uniform Resource Identifier
(URI), since it is anticipated that an administrative domain identifier
(or G-SPID) can be expressed accordingly.=20

As a result of these conclusions, IETF participants interested in the
definition of an administrative domain identifier or G-SPID have been
continuing discussions within the IETF DISPATCH WG
(http://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/dispatch/charter/). During the IETF's
81st meeting in Quebec, Canada, Penn Pfautz presented to the DISPATCH WG
an internet draft
(http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pfautz-service-provider-identifier-urn
) describing an proposal for G-SPID. See:
https://tools.ietf.org/agenda/81/slides/dispatch-1.pptx=20

Minutes of the session are available here:
http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dispatch/minutes?item=3Dminutes81.html=20

In summary, no further discussion or work is scheduled to happen within
the DRINKS WG. We encourage interested individuals and organizations,
including the ITU SG2, to follow the progress of
draft-pfautz-service-provider-identifier-urn within the IETF DISPATCH
WG.=20

Regards,
Alex Mayrhofer and Sumanth Channabasappa, Co-chairs, IETF DRINKS WG
.....



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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: "PFAUTZ, PENN L" <pp3129@att.com>, Sumanth Channabasappa <sumanth@cablelabs.com>, "Drinks@ietf.org" <Drinks@ietf.org>
Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2011 15:36:48 +0200
Thread-Topic: [drinks] FW: [RAI] Global Service Provider ID - draft-pfautz-service-provider-identifier-urn-01
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Subject: Re: [drinks] FW: [RAI] Global Service Provider ID - draft-pfautz-service-provider-identifier-urn-01
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Dear Penn,

Apologies if this is already raised but  having a quick review of your draf=
t, it seems to me all the requirements you listed are met by the ITAD numbe=
r for VoIP service providers:

   o  They SHOULD be globally unique
   o  They SHOULD be numeric, at least 8 digits long
   o  They SHOULD be fixed length
   o  they SHOULD be available to any type of entity
   o  Entities SHOULD be able to obtain mulitple identifiers.
   o  Some range of identifiers SHOULD be reserved for internal entity
      usage.

Did I missed something?

Thanks.

Cheers,
Med


________________________________
De : drinks-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:drinks-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de=
 PFAUTZ, PENN L
Envoy=E9 : vendredi 23 septembre 2011 21:00
=C0 : Sumanth Channabasappa; Drinks@ietf.org
Objet : Re: [drinks] FW: [RAI] Global Service Provider ID - draft-pfautz-se=
rvice-provider-identifier-urn-01

Thanks Sumanth.  And if folks think this SPID would be a useful thing to ha=
ve, please weigh in accordingly.

Penn Pfautz
AT&T Access Management
+1-732-420-4962
From: drinks-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:drinks-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of=
 Sumanth Channabasappa
Sent: Friday, September 23, 2011 2:58 PM
To: Drinks@ietf.org
Subject: [drinks] FW: [RAI] Global Service Provider ID - draft-pfautz-servi=
ce-provider-identifier-urn-01

I am forwarding this as an FYI. If you are interested in this discussion, p=
lease check the rai discussion list. See: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/list=
info/rai for archives and subscription.

- S

From: rai-bounces@ietf.org On Behalf Of PFAUTZ, PENN L
To: rai@ietf.org
Subject: [RAI] Global Service Provider ID - draft-pfautz-service-provider-i=
dentifier-urn-01

Following up on the discussion in dispatch at IETF 81 (www.ietf.org/proceed=
ings/81/minutes/dispatch.txt<http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/81/minutes/dis=
patch.txt>) I'd like to get some discussion of   draft-pfautz-service-provi=
der-identifier-urn-01 going.
The draft proposed IANA registration of a service provider ID (SPID) which =
would have the following characteristics:
-      Numeric ID, at least 8 digits long
-      Fixed length
-      Available to any type of entity
-      Entities able to obtain multiple identifiers.
-       Some range of identifiers reserved for internal usage
-      Open registration by IANA

The minutes concluded:

-      WG is in support of creating a URN for this.
-      Document(s) likely to be AD sponsored.
-      Discussion should move to RAI area list (as opposed to DRINKS or DIS=
PATCH).

The outstanding issues seemed to be
1. Is a new resource assignment necessary for the URN or could an existing =
one, Private Enterprise Numbers or ITADs be used with a URN defined to prov=
ide a fixed length parameter as requested in the I-D?

2. Assuming a fixed length parameter will be used, what's the right length?

The I-D proposed a new resource, partly because the existing ones were inte=
nded for other purposes and already had many registrations. I'd also note t=
hat PENs suggest a sub-delegation approach to assigning multiple SPIDs to a=
n entity (an entity gets one PEN assignment and can assign values hierarchi=
cally below that (e.g. AT&T has PEN 74, and would assign 74.1, 74.2, etc). =
Because at least some of the service providers wanted to use SPID to prefix=
 E.164 numbers and others want to incorporate SPID in a domain name, this w=
ould present issues.


Penn Pfautz
AT&T Access Management
+1-732-420-4962

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<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D801523013-26092011><FONT color=3D=
#0000ff=20
size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New">Dear Penn,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D801523013-26092011><FONT color=3D=
#0000ff=20
size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D801523013-26092011><FONT color=3D=
#0000ff=20
size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New">Apologies if this is already raised but&nbsp;=
=20
h</FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=3D801523013-26092011><FONT color=3D#0000ff size=
=3D2=20
face=3D"Courier New">aving a quick review of your draft, it seems to me all=
 the=20
requirements you listed are met by the ITAD number for VoIP service=20
providers:</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D801523013-26092011><PRE class=3Dn=
ewpage>   o  They SHOULD be globally unique
   o  They SHOULD be numeric, at least 8 digits long
   o  They SHOULD be fixed length
   o  they SHOULD be available to any type of entity
   o  Entities SHOULD be able to obtain mulitple identifiers.
   o  Some range of identifiers SHOULD be reserved for internal entity
      usage.</PRE></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D801523013-26092011><FONT color=3D=
#0000ff=20
size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New">Did I missed something?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D801523013-26092011><FONT color=3D=
#0000ff=20
size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D801523013-26092011><FONT color=3D=
#0000ff=20
size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New">Thanks.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D801523013-26092011><FONT color=3D=
#0000ff=20
size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D801523013-26092011><FONT color=3D=
#0000ff=20
size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New">Cheers,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D801523013-26092011><FONT color=3D=
#0000ff=20
size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New">Med</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D801523013-26092011><FONT color=3D=
#0000ff=20
size=3D2 face=3D"Courier New"></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<DIV dir=3Dltr lang=3Dfr class=3DOutlookMessageHeader align=3Dleft>
<HR tabIndex=3D-1>
<FONT size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><B>De&nbsp;:</B> drinks-bounces@ietf.org=20
[mailto:drinks-bounces@ietf.org] <B>De la part de</B> PFAUTZ, PENN=20
L<BR><B>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</B> vendredi 23 septembre 2011 21:00<BR><B>=C0&nbsp=
;:</B>=20
Sumanth Channabasappa; Drinks@ietf.org<BR><B>Objet&nbsp;:</B> Re: [drinks] =
FW:=20
[RAI] Global Service Provider ID -=20
draft-pfautz-service-provider-identifier-urn-01<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=3DWordSection1>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: #1f497d">Thanks Sumanth.&nbsp; A=
nd if=20
folks think this SPID would be a useful thing to have, please weigh in=20
accordingly.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: #1f497d"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN=
></P>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 10pt=
">Penn=20
Pfautz</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE:=
 12pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 10pt=
">AT&amp;T=20
Access Management</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE:=
 12pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 10pt=
">+1-732-420-4962</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"COLOR: #1f497d"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTT=
OM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt sol=
id; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<P class=3DMsoNormal><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN><=
/B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">=20
drinks-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:drinks-bounces@ietf.org] <B>On Behalf Of=20
</B>Sumanth Channabasappa<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, September 23, 2011 2:58=20
PM<BR><B>To:</B> Drinks@ietf.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> [drinks] FW: [RAI] Glob=
al=20
Service Provider ID -=20
draft-pfautz-service-provider-identifier-urn-01<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>=
</DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: #1f497d">I am forwarding this as=
 an FYI.=20
If you are interested in this discussion, please check the rai discussion l=
ist.=20
See: <A=20
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rai">https://www.ietf.org/mai=
lman/listinfo/rai</A>=20
for archives and subscription.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: #1f497d"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN=
></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: #1f497d">- S<o:p></o:p></SPAN></=
P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: #1f497d"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN=
></P>
<DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTT=
OM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt sol=
id; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<P class=3DMsoNormal><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN><=
/B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">=20
rai-bounces@ietf.org <B>On Behalf Of </B>PFAUTZ, PENN L<BR><B>To:</B>=20
rai@ietf.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> [RAI] Global Service Provider ID -=20
draft-pfautz-service-provider-identifier-urn-01<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>=
</DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>Following up on the discussion in dispatch at IETF 81 =
(<A=20
href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/81/minutes/dispatch.txt">www.ietf.o=
rg/proceedings/81/minutes/dispatch.txt</A>)=20
I=92d like to get some discussion of&nbsp;=20
&nbsp;draft-pfautz-service-provider-identifier-urn-01 going.<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>The draft proposed IANA registration of a service prov=
ider ID=20
(SPID) which would have the following characteristics:<o:p></o:p></P>
<P style=3D"TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=
=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">=96</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 7pt">&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
</SPAN>Numeric ID, at least 8 digits long <o:p></o:p></P>
<P style=3D"TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=
=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">=96</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 7pt">&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
</SPAN>Fixed length <o:p></o:p></P>
<P style=3D"TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=
=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">=96</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 7pt">&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
</SPAN>Available to any type of entity <o:p></o:p></P>
<P style=3D"TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=
=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">=96</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 7pt">&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
</SPAN>Entities able to obtain multiple identifiers. <o:p></o:p></P>
<P style=3D"TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=
=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">=96</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 7pt">&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
</SPAN>&nbsp;Some range of identifiers reserved for internal=20
usage<o:p></o:p></P>
<P style=3D"TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=
=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">=96</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 7pt">&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
</SPAN>Open registration by IANA<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>The minutes concluded:<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></P>
<P style=3D"TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=
=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">=96</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 7pt">&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
</SPAN>WG is in support of creating a URN for this. <o:p></o:p></P>
<P style=3D"TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=
=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">=96</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 7pt">&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
</SPAN>Document(s) likely to be AD sponsored. <o:p></o:p></P>
<P style=3D"TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; MARGIN-LEFT: 1in" class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=
=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">=96</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 7pt">&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
</SPAN>Discussion should move to RAI area list (as opposed to DRINKS or=20
DISPATCH). <o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>The outstanding issues seemed to be<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>1. Is a new resource assignment necessary for the URN =
or=20
could an existing one, Private Enterprise Numbers or ITADs be used with a U=
RN=20
defined to provide a fixed length parameter as requested in the=20
I-D?<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>2. Assuming a fixed length parameter will be used, wha=
t=92s the=20
right length?<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>The I-D proposed a new resource, partly because the ex=
isting=20
ones were intended for other purposes and already had many registrations. I=
=92d=20
also note that PENs suggest a sub-delegation approach to assigning multiple=
=20
SPIDs to an entity (an entity gets one PEN assignment and can assign values=
=20
hierarchically below that (e.g. AT&amp;T has PEN 74, and would assign 74.1,=
=20
74.2, etc). Because at least some of the service providers wanted to use SP=
ID to=20
prefix E.164 numbers and others want to incorporate SPID in a domain name, =
this=20
would present issues. <o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Penn=20
Pfautz</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p></o:=
p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">AT&amp;T Acces=
s=20
Management</SPAN><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p></o:=
p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">+1-732-420-496=
2</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2011 07:39:27 -0600
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From: "Cartwright, Ken" <kcartwright@tnsi.com>
To: Alexander Mayrhofer <alexander.mayrhofer@nic.at>, "drinks@ietf.org" <drinks@ietf.org>
Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2011 15:48:14 -0400
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Subject: Re: [drinks] Session @ IETF 82
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Ok, but just for clarification I'd call this effort that we are now taking =
on one that will make the SPP more amenable to ReST _specifically_ (because=
 ReST wants to control, to one extent or another, how to do object identity=
, and how to handle the verbs, and how to handle the response codes) rather=
 than one to "accommodate the abstraction requirements".  Transports and en=
velopes do not typically attempt to define application specific constructs =
like that, but ReST attempts to.  The SPP protocol, as it stands today, can=
 already be cleanly mapped onto TCP, HTTP, BEEP, RPCs, UDP, files, SOAP, as=
ync message oriented middleware, etc, because these are really just transpo=
rt mechanisms and/or generic envelopes.  ReST is not a transport or an enve=
lope.  ReST is more in the category of an architectural framework and appro=
ach, like CORBA, RMI, etc, because its edicts go well beyond specifying the=
 transport and/or the envelope.  Needless to day, we never designed SPP so =
that it could fit within any set of architectural frameworks or approaches.=
  Rather, we designed it so that it could be mapped onto multiple transport=
s and/or generic envelopes that can cleanly support XML as the request/resp=
onse payload structure.  The work we are now taking on is not work that wil=
l make SPP amenable to any architectural framework/approach; we are modifyi=
ng it in a way that will _also_ make it specifically adaptable to the ReST =
architectural framework/approach.

Ken

-----Original Message-----
From: drinks-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:drinks-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of=
 Alexander Mayrhofer
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2011 3:04 AM
To: drinks@ietf.org
Subject: [drinks] Session @ IETF 82

All,

we have decided to request a 90 minute session @ IETF 82 in Taipei,
since the structural changes to the protocol / transport document to
accomodate the abstraction requirements will probably delay the
documents up to that meeting.

In case we finish earlier, we can still cancel the slot.

Proposals for Agenda items (beyond the obvious discussion around the two
remaining working group documents) are appreciated.

thanks,

Alex

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