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From: "Bhatia, Vikas" <vbhatia@tnsi.com>
To: "Hollenbeck, Scott" <shollenbeck@verisign.com>
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 17:58:26 -0500
Thread-Topic: [drinks] TLS Client CertificateRequest?
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References: <831693C2CDA2E849A7D7A712B24E257F0D595A08@BRN1WNEXMBX01.vcorp.ad.vrsn.com> <3D35AFB9-D8E1-4AF7-B483-F6DE35FEE6F2@softarmor.com> <831693C2CDA2E849A7D7A712B24E257F0D598DB4@BRN1WNEXMBX01.vcorp.ad.vrsn.com> <B4254E341B54864B92D28BC2138A9DC301E3538A9A@TNS-MAIL-NA.win2k.corp.tnsi.com> <831693C2CDA2E849A7D7A712B24E257F0D5B50AB@BRN1WNEXMBX01.vcorp.ad.vrsn.com>
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Cc: "drinks@ietf.org" <drinks@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [drinks] TLS Client CertificateRequest?
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Thanks Scott, The text looks good imo. I just have couple minor comments:


> The TLS handshake protocol requires certificate-based server
> authentication for all key exchange methods defined in RFC 5246 except
> DH_anon.

I would suggest to not have the above line in the text. The reason is that =
this is well-established in RFC 5246 and would be redundant here.


> increased if the server supports client-initiated renegotiation. This
> risk can be mitigated by disabling client-initiated renegotiation on the
> server and by ensuring that other means (such as firewall access control
> lists) are used to restrict unauthenticated client access to servers.

I am not sure if it is a requirement for all TLS servers to provide ability=
 to turn off client initiated renegotiation, so I will just do a little mod=
ification as follows:

"This risk can be mitigated by disabling client-initiated renegotiation on =
the
server and/or by ensuring that other means (such as firewall access control
lists) are used to restrict unauthenticated client access to servers."

Thanks,
Vikas

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Hollenbeck, Scott [mailto:shollenbeck@verisign.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 11:06 AM
> To: Bhatia, Vikas; Dean Willis
> Cc: drinks@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [drinks] TLS Client CertificateRequest?
>
> Proposed text for section 10.2:
>
> Sections 5 and 10.1 describe requirements for HTTPS support using TLS.
> The TLS handshake protocol requires certificate-based server
> authentication for all key exchange methods defined in RFC 5246 except
> DH_anon. Non-anonymous TLS servers can optionally request a certificate
> from a TLS client; that option is not a requirement for this protocol.
> This presents a denial of service risk in which unauthenticated clients
> can consume server CPU resources by creating TLS sessions. The risk is
> increased if the server supports client-initiated renegotiation. This
> risk can be mitigated by disabling client-initiated renegotiation on the
> server and by ensuring that other means (such as firewall access control
> lists) are used to restrict unauthenticated client access to servers.
>
> I'm open to wordsmithing.
>
> Scott
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Bhatia, Vikas [mailto:vbhatia@tnsi.com]
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 9:49 AM
> > To: Hollenbeck, Scott; Dean Willis
> > Cc: drinks@ietf.org
> > Subject: RE: [drinks] TLS Client CertificateRequest?
> >
> > Hello Scott,
> >
> > Please provide the text that you would like to suggest pertaining to
> > this aspect of Security Considerations.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Vikas
> >
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: drinks-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:drinks-bounces@ietf.org] On
> > Behalf
> > > Of Hollenbeck, Scott
> > > Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2012 1:34 PM
> > > To: Dean Willis
> > > Cc: drinks@ietf.org
> > > Subject: Re: [drinks] TLS Client CertificateRequest?
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Dean Willis [mailto:dean.willis@softarmor.com]
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2012 9:57 AM
> > > > To: Hollenbeck, Scott
> > > > Cc: drinks@ietf.org
> > > > Subject: Re: [drinks] TLS Client CertificateRequest?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Feb 1, 2012, at 12:29 PM, Hollenbeck, Scott wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Sections 5 and 10.1 of the protocol draft include text that
> > > describes
> > > > how these requirements will be met. I see MUSTs for HTTPS, but no
> > > > mention of a need for the server to request a certificate from a
> > > > client. Are servers required to send a TLS CertificateRequest
> > message
> > > > as part of the handshake protocol? The means is there, but it
> > doesn't
> > > > appear that the protocol includes a requirement for a server to
> > > > authenticate a client at the TLS level.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Nope. Basic or Digest authentication over HTTPS is considered good
> > > > enough. There's no requirement for the client to have or present a
> > > > cert.
> > >
> > > If that's the case, there's a risk of malicious clients consuming
> > > server-side resources to the point of denying service to legitimate
> > > clients. The risk should be identified in the security
> considerations
> > > section, perhaps as an additional paragraph in section 10.2. I'll
> > > suggest text if it helps.
> > >
> > > Scott
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > drinks mailing list
> > > drinks@ietf.org
> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/drinks
> >
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This e-mail message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s)and may
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you
are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail a=
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From mickaelmarrache@gmail.com  Fri Mar  2 02:38:21 2012
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From: Mickael Marrache <mickaelmarrache@gmail.com>
To: drinks@ietf.org
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Subject: [drinks] SPPF changes proposal
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--f46d04430452bf26f204ba402cfc
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Hi DRINKS,

Following the conversation we had today, I would like to speak about the
issue raised by David concerning the data model.

Please, let's take a look at the figure present in the joined SPPF-user
ENUM.jpg file.

To meet the requirements deduced from the user ENUM use case, a direct
association between the TN and route record types has been added. In this
case, we have each TN associated to a route record directly. But, since
peering is defined at the route group level, there is no easy possibility
to share these direct associations. So, one solution is to include these
route records in a dummy (since the included route records have not common
routes) destination group DG-1. Then, we also create a dummy (since it
doesn't contain any route) route group RG-1 and associate it to DG-1. Then,
the route group may be offered to a peering organization.

The aforementioned solution disturbs me in two points. First, since the
destination group DG-1 and the route group RG-1 are not used for their
primary reason (a destination group allows grouping of public identifiers
that share a common set of routes, and a route group is generally used to
group route records that may correspond to a same "destination" - that's
why we share them as a block), it reveals a potential design issue. That's
what I have qualified them as dummy before. That's the first impression I
had when I heard this solution. The second point I want to raise concerns
the complexity added by this solution. In this case, when an originating
SSP wants to know the routes records associated to TN 1 for example, we
directly see that there is a route record associated to it (RR 1). But, we
don't know if this route record is accessible by the originating SSP. So,
we need to get the enclosing destination group DG-1 and then the route
group RG-1. We then check in its list of peering organizations if the
originating SSP exists. Then, the route record RR 1 (obtained from the
telephone number) is returned if the SSP is authorized. You will note that
this processing is not the regular one described by SPPF. In general, we
get the destination group associated to the queried public identifier, then
the route group, and then the associated route records if authorized. Why
do we need to use a different processing for the same kind of problem?
After all, we just want to get the route records associated to the
telephone number TN-1 in a user ENUM scenario (it's a banal scenario among
many of them), as we want to get the route records associated to another
public identifier in a regular scenario. That's what we have here: two
symptoms that reveal a design issue.

Now, let's take a look at the UML class diagram present in the joined
ProposedModel-SPPF.jpg file.

By using the abstraction defined by the abstract types PubIdentElement and
RouteElement, it allows defining a many to many relationship between public
identifier elements (i.e. single PI or destination group) and route
elements (i.e. single route record or route group). This relationship is
represented by the class-association RoutingAssoc. This association links
zero or more public identifier elements to zero or more route elements.
Also, to solve the scalability issue raised by Ken in the case one
registrant organization has to offer a huge number of associations
(previously route groups), we may use the same grouping concept for routing
associations, represented by the AssocGroup type. Thus, we define a
ShareableElement type that represents the basic entity that may be shared
by a registrant organization.

This model gives the possibility to define 4 combinations of associations:

   - Public identifier - Route record (solving user ENUM issue plus the
   possibility to link a single RN/TNP/TNR to a route record)
   - Public identifier - Route group (same as previous but with more than
   one route record)
   - Destination group - Route record
   - Destination group - Route group (regular scenario)

I don't think it's a big amount of change. The point here is to introduce
an abstraction, and to use an intermediary type between the public
identifier element and the route element. This intermediary type should be
used for peering. After all, the valuable information that is shared is an
association between public identifiers and routes, thus using a dedicated
type for this association should be the solution.

Also, I still think the peering aspect of this protocol should be defined
in a separated protocol that would support much more use cases than a
simple offer/accept model. I think we should have two standards, each one
focusing on a specific aspect of the problem, so we can decouple the two
problems. Then, the users would have the choice to use the routing
provisioning protocol or the peering protocol or both.

Maybe I'm missing something here, so if you see any issue (e.g. concerning
scalability) caused by this data model, please let me know. I would be
happy to hear your comments on these propositions.

Thanks

Mickael

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi DRINKS,<br><br>Following the conversation we had today,=
 I would like to speak about the issue raised by David concerning the data =
model.<br><br>Please, let&#39;s take a look at the figure present in the jo=
ined SPPF-user ENUM.jpg file.<br>


<br><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;line-height:115%;font-family:&quot;Cali=
bri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"></span>To
 meet the requirements deduced from the user ENUM use case, a direct=20
association between the TN and route record types has been added. In=20
this case, we have each TN associated to a route record directly. But,=20
since peering is defined at the route group level, there is no easy=20
possibility to share these direct associations. So, one solution is to=20
include these route records in a dummy (since the included route records
 have not common routes) destination group DG-1. Then, we also create a=20
dummy (since it doesn&#39;t contain any route) route group RG-1 and=20
associate it to DG-1. Then, the route group may be offered to a peering=20
organization.<br>

<br>The aforementioned solution disturbs me in two points. First, since=20
the destination group DG-1 and the route group RG-1 are not used for=20
their primary reason (a destination group allows grouping of public=20
identifiers that share a common set of routes, and a route group is=20
generally used to group route records that may correspond to a same=20
&quot;destination&quot; - that&#39;s why we share them as a block), it reve=
als a=20
potential design issue. That&#39;s what I have qualified them as dummy=20
before. That&#39;s the first impression I had when I heard this solution.=
=20
The second point I want to raise concerns the complexity added by this=20
solution. In this case, when an originating SSP wants to know the routes
 records associated to TN 1 for example, we directly see that there is a
 route record associated to it (RR 1). But, we don&#39;t know if this route=
=20
record is accessible by the originating SSP. So, we need to get the=20
enclosing destination group DG-1 and then the route group RG-1. We then=20
check in its list of peering organizations if the originating SSP=20
exists. Then, the route record RR 1 (obtained from the telephone number)
 is returned if the SSP is authorized. You will note that this=20
processing is not the regular one described by SPPF. In general, we get=20
the destination group associated to the queried public identifier, then=20
the route group, and then the associated route records if authorized.=20
Why do we need to use a different processing for the same kind of=20
problem? After all, we just want to get the route records associated to=20
the telephone number TN-1 in a user ENUM scenario (it&#39;s a banal scenari=
o
 among many of them), as we want to get the route records associated to=20
another public identifier in a regular scenario. That&#39;s what we have=20
here: two symptoms that reveal a design issue.<br>

<br>Now, let&#39;s take a look at the UML class diagram present in the join=
ed ProposedModel-SPPF.jpg file.<br><br>By
 using the abstraction defined by the abstract types PubIdentElement and
 RouteElement, it allows defining a many to many relationship between=20
public identifier elements (i.e. single PI or destination group) and=20
route elements (i.e. single route record or route group). This=20
relationship is represented by the class-association RoutingAssoc. This=20
association links zero or more public identifier elements to zero or=20
more route elements. Also, to solve the scalability issue raised by Ken=20
in the case one registrant organization has to offer a huge number of=20
associations (previously route groups), we may use the same grouping=20
concept for routing associations, represented by the AssocGroup type.=20
Thus, we define a ShareableElement type that represents the basic entity
 that may be shared by a registrant organization.<br>
<br>This model gives the possibility to define 4 combinations of associatio=
ns:<br><ul><li>Public identifier - Route record (solving user ENUM issue pl=
us the possibility to link a single RN/TNP/TNR to a route record)</li>
<li>
Public identifier - Route group (same as previous but with more than one ro=
ute record)</li><li>Destination group - Route record<br></li><li>Destinatio=
n group - Route group (regular scenario)</li></ul><p>I don&#39;t think it&#=
39;s a big amount of change. The point here is to introduce an abstraction,=
 and to use an intermediary type between the public identifier element and =
the route element. This intermediary type should be used for peering. After=
 all, the valuable information that is shared is an association between pub=
lic identifiers and routes, thus using a dedicated type for this associatio=
n should be the solution.<br>
</p><p>Also, I still think the peering aspect of this protocol should be de=
fined in a separated protocol that would support much more use cases than a=
 simple offer/accept model. I think we should have two standards, each one =
focusing on a specific aspect of the problem, so we can decouple the two pr=
oblems. Then, the users would have the choice to use the routing provisioni=
ng protocol or the peering protocol or both.<br>
</p><p>Maybe I&#39;m missing something here, so if you see any issue (e.g. =
concerning scalability) caused by this data model, please let me know. I wo=
uld be happy to hear your comments on these propositions.</p><p>Thanks</p>
<p>Mickael<br></p></div>

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From: "Hollenbeck, Scott" <shollenbeck@verisign.com>
To: "Bhatia, Vikas" <vbhatia@tnsi.com>
Thread-Topic: [drinks] TLS Client CertificateRequest?
Thread-Index: AQHM5nH2W6gwl4O9eEqyXBtiou8dHZYzSJ7QgB6RDRCAALdsIIADPnHQgAFEkHA=
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 12:41:13 +0000
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Cc: "drinks@ietf.org" <drinks@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [drinks] TLS Client CertificateRequest?
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bhatia, Vikas [mailto:vbhatia@tnsi.com]
> Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2012 5:58 PM
> To: Hollenbeck, Scott
> Cc: drinks@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: [drinks] TLS Client CertificateRequest?
>=20
> Thanks Scott, The text looks good imo. I just have couple minor
> comments:
>=20
>=20
> > The TLS handshake protocol requires certificate-based server
> > authentication for all key exchange methods defined in RFC 5246
> except
> > DH_anon.
>=20
> I would suggest to not have the above line in the text. The reason is
> that this is well-established in RFC 5246 and would be redundant here.

I included it because I thought the context would be helpful, but I'm Ok wi=
th striking it.

> > increased if the server supports client-initiated renegotiation. This
> > risk can be mitigated by disabling client-initiated renegotiation on
> the
> > server and by ensuring that other means (such as firewall access
> control
> > lists) are used to restrict unauthenticated client access to servers.
>=20
> I am not sure if it is a requirement for all TLS servers to provide
> ability to turn off client initiated renegotiation, so I will just do a
> little modification as follows:
>=20
> "This risk can be mitigated by disabling client-initiated renegotiation
> on the
> server and/or by ensuring that other means (such as firewall access
> control
> lists) are used to restrict unauthenticated client access to servers."

I'm less comfortable with this change. Renegotiation is optional, but if it=
's supported your "and/or" change (the "or" part in particular) suggests th=
at there may be no risk in leaving it enabled. That's not the case. A clien=
t that can renegotiate at will presents a denial of service risk.

Scott

From kcartwright@tnsi.com  Fri Mar  2 07:31:54 2012
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From: "Cartwright, Ken" <kcartwright@tnsi.com>
To: Mickael Marrache <mickaelmarrache@gmail.com>, "drinks@ietf.org" <drinks@ietf.org>
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 10:31:41 -0500
Thread-Topic: [drinks] SPPF changes proposal
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Hi Mickael,

There are misunderstandings about the data model and about the resolution p=
rocess.

"To meet the requirements deduced from the user ENUM use case, a direct ass=
ociation between the TN and route record types has been added"
KJC:  Nothing has been "added", the data model has been this way for at lea=
st two years now.

"So, one solution is to include these route records in a dummy (since the i=
ncluded route records have not common routes) destination group DG-1. Then,=
 we also create a dummy (since it doesn't contain any route) route group RG=
-1 and associate it to DG-1. Then, the route group may be offered to a peer=
ing organization."

KJC: The Destination Group and the Route Group you refer to as "Dummys", ar=
e not "Dummys" they are an integral and expected part of the data structure=
.

"First, since the destination group DG-1 and the route group RG-1 are not u=
sed for their primary reason (a destination group allows grouping of public=
 identifiers that share a common set of routes, and a route group is genera=
lly used to group route records that may correspond to a same "destination"=
 - that's why we share them as a block), it reveals a potential design issu=
e."

KJC:  The Route Group you refer to as "not contain any route rec" is not ac=
curate.  It may or may not contain Route Recs.  It is up to the registrant =
and registrar to decide whether they wish to have route recs on a given rou=
te group, regardless of whether they have also decided to have Route Recs d=
irectly associated with a PI (i.e. in the user ENUM case, where some PIs wi=
ll/may have Route Recs that contain info that is specific to that PI).  The=
 model allows both, depending on the Registrar's Registrant's need.

KJC:  The Destination Group and Route Groups involved here _do_ in fact ser=
ve the purpose that they are designed to serve.  They allow the peering vis=
ibility of large numbers of public identities and their routing information=
 to be controlled at an aggregate with just a few number of API calls, as a=
pposed to millions (one per PI or Route Rec).  They allow the Destination G=
roup to be associated or disassociated to from one or more Route Group obje=
cts in a single command as the need arises, they allow the Route Group to b=
e offered/accepted in a single command, rather than one per route rec (whic=
h there would be millions of in the User ENUM case) or one per PI.  They Ro=
ute Group allows further control of the visibility based on source-based ro=
uting, and other routing selection algorithms that, at this time, would be =
vendor specific since they are not in the protocol (e.g. time-of-day, cost,=
 etc).

"In this case, when an originating SSP wants to know the routes records ass=
ociated to TN 1 for example...."

KJC:  The second paragraph in your note attempts to describe part of the re=
solution process, I've included the first part of your statement above.  It=
 basically says that the resolution process is somehow different if Route R=
ecs are directly associated with the PI than if they are associated with th=
e Route Group.  This is not accurate.  First off, SPPP does not attempt to =
define how resolution servers must evaluate the data that SPP provisions.  =
Doing so would be folly, since TN resolution logic is much too involved, an=
d often situation specific, including looking at data sources that do not e=
ven come in over SPPP (e.g. portability data, etc, etc).  However, the basi=
c logic involves (1) using the lookup key (e.g. a TN) and the source of the=
 query to get the Destination Groups that contain that lookup key that are =
visible to that source based on the Route Groups that that source has accep=
ted (or auto-accepted), (2) collecting the Route Recs that are on the Route=
 Group(s) if any and/or the PI if any, (3) evaluating the Route Recs based =
on their priority (and other vendor specific resolution logic, which the pr=
otocol does not attempt to specify), then sending the collected Route Recs =
out in the resolution response.  Notice that there are not two different fl=
ows.


KJC:  But from a bigger picture perspective, when the proposal was brought =
up yesterday, it was brought up under the guise that "the current data mode=
l is broken and it a hack in this area, so we need to do X, Y and Z".  This=
 is simply not accurate, as I've described above.  Secondly, the proposed a=
lternative simply does not work in terms of scalability for the User ENUM u=
se case.  The proposal would result in millions of Route Recs (since in the=
 user enum case the Route Recs contain PI specific data) having to be offer=
ed and accepted.  So even the primary target use case of the proposal just =
does not work well.  So given that the current model is not "broken" and is=
 not a "hack" and given that the new proposal does not scale for the user e=
num use case, why add in the additional complexity that results from the ne=
w proposal?

Ken

________________________________
From: drinks-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:drinks-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of=
 Mickael Marrache
Sent: Friday, March 02, 2012 5:38 AM
To: drinks@ietf.org
Subject: [drinks] SPPF changes proposal

Hi DRINKS,

Following the conversation we had today, I would like to speak about the is=
sue raised by David concerning the data model.

Please, let's take a look at the figure present in the joined SPPF-user ENU=
M.jpg file.

To meet the requirements deduced from the user ENUM use case, a direct asso=
ciation between the TN and route record types has been added. In this case,=
 we have each TN associated to a route record directly. But, since peering =
is defined at the route group level, there is no easy possibility to share =
these direct associations. So, one solution is to include these route recor=
ds in a dummy (since the included route records have not common routes) des=
tination group DG-1. Then, we also create a dummy (since it doesn't contain=
 any route) route group RG-1 and associate it to DG-1. Then, the route grou=
p may be offered to a peering organization.

The aforementioned solution disturbs me in two points. First, since the des=
tination group DG-1 and the route group RG-1 are not used for their primary=
 reason (a destination group allows grouping of public identifiers that sha=
re a common set of routes, and a route group is generally used to group rou=
te records that may correspond to a same "destination" - that's why we shar=
e them as a block), it reveals a potential design issue. That's what I have=
 qualified them as dummy before. That's the first impression I had when I h=
eard this solution. The second point I want to raise concerns the complexit=
y added by this solution. In this case, when an originating SSP wants to kn=
ow the routes records associated to TN 1 for example, we directly see that =
there is a route record associated to it (RR 1). But, we don't know if this=
 route record is accessible by the originating SSP. So, we need to get the =
enclosing destination group DG-1 and then the route group RG-1. We then che=
ck in its list of peering organizations if the originating SSP exists. Then=
, the route record RR 1 (obtained from the telephone number) is returned if=
 the SSP is authorized. You will note that this processing is not the regul=
ar one described by SPPF. In general, we get the destination group associat=
ed to the queried public identifier, then the route group, and then the ass=
ociated route records if authorized. Why do we need to use a different proc=
essing for the same kind of problem? After all, we just want to get the rou=
te records associated to the telephone number TN-1 in a user ENUM scenario =
(it's a banal scenario among many of them), as we want to get the route rec=
ords associated to another public identifier in a regular scenario. That's =
what we have here: two symptoms that reveal a design issue.

Now, let's take a look at the UML class diagram present in the joined Propo=
sedModel-SPPF.jpg file.

By using the abstraction defined by the abstract types PubIdentElement and =
RouteElement, it allows defining a many to many relationship between public=
 identifier elements (i.e. single PI or destination group) and route elemen=
ts (i.e. single route record or route group). This relationship is represen=
ted by the class-association RoutingAssoc. This association links zero or m=
ore public identifier elements to zero or more route elements. Also, to sol=
ve the scalability issue raised by Ken in the case one registrant organizat=
ion has to offer a huge number of associations (previously route groups), w=
e may use the same grouping concept for routing associations, represented b=
y the AssocGroup type. Thus, we define a ShareableElement type that represe=
nts the basic entity that may be shared by a registrant organization.

This model gives the possibility to define 4 combinations of associations:

 *   Public identifier - Route record (solving user ENUM issue plus the pos=
sibility to link a single RN/TNP/TNR to a route record)
 *   Public identifier - Route group (same as previous but with more than o=
ne route record)
 *   Destination group - Route record
 *   Destination group - Route group (regular scenario)

I don't think it's a big amount of change. The point here is to introduce a=
n abstraction, and to use an intermediary type between the public identifie=
r element and the route element. This intermediary type should be used for =
peering. After all, the valuable information that is shared is an associati=
on between public identifiers and routes, thus using a dedicated type for t=
his association should be the solution.

Also, I still think the peering aspect of this protocol should be defined i=
n a separated protocol that would support much more use cases than a simple=
 offer/accept model. I think we should have two standards, each one focusin=
g on a specific aspect of the problem, so we can decouple the two problems.=
 Then, the users would have the choice to use the routing provisioning prot=
ocol or the peering protocol or both.

Maybe I'm missing something here, so if you see any issue (e.g. concerning =
scalability) caused by this data model, please let me know. I would be happ=
y to hear your comments on these propositions.

Thanks

Mickael

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<body lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"Section1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Hi Mickael,<o:p></o:p></span></font></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">There are misunderstandings about the =
data model and about the resolution process. &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">&#8220;</span></font>To meet the requi=
rements deduced from the user ENUM use case, a direct association between t=
he TN and route record types
 has been added&#8221;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">KJC:&nbsp; Nothing has been &#8220;add=
ed&#8221;, the data model has been this way for at least two years now.<o:p=
></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">&#8220;</span></font>So, one solution =
is to include these route records in a dummy (since the included route reco=
rds have not common routes)
 destination group DG-1. Then, we also create a dummy (since it doesn't con=
tain any route) route group RG-1 and associate it to DG-1. Then, the route =
group may be offered to a peering organization.&#8221;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:
12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">KJC: The Destination Group and the Rou=
te Group you refer to as &#8220;Dummys&#8221;, are not &#8220;Dummys&#8221;=
 they are an integral and expected part of the
 data structure.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:
12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:
12.0pt">&#8220;First, since the destination group DG-1 and the route group =
RG-1 are not used for their primary reason (a destination group allows grou=
ping of public identifiers that
 share a common set of routes, and a route group is generally used to group=
 route records that may correspond to a same &quot;destination&quot; - that=
's why we share them as a block), it reveals a potential design issue.&#822=
1;</span></font><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p></o:p></span></font=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">KJC:&nbsp; The Route Group you refer t=
o as &#8220;not contain any route rec&#8221; is not accurate.&nbsp; It may =
or may not contain Route Recs.&nbsp; It is up to
 the registrant and registrar to decide whether they wish to have route rec=
s on a given route group, regardless of whether they have also decided to h=
ave Route Recs directly associated with a PI (i.e. in the user ENUM case, w=
here some PIs will/may have Route
 Recs that contain info that is specific to that PI).&nbsp; The model allow=
s both, depending on the Registrar&#8217;s Registrant&#8217;s need.<o:p></o=
:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">KJC:&nbsp; The Destination Group and R=
oute Groups involved here _<i><span style=3D"font-style:italic">do</span></=
i>_ in fact serve the purpose
 that they are designed to serve. &nbsp;They allow the peering visibility o=
f large numbers of public identities and their routing information to be co=
ntrolled at an aggregate with just a few number of API calls, as apposed to=
 millions (one per PI or Route Rec).
 &nbsp;They allow the Destination Group to be associated or disassociated t=
o from one or more Route Group objects in a single command as the need aris=
es, they allow the Route Group to be offered/accepted in a single command, =
rather than one per route rec (which
 there would be millions of in the User ENUM case) or one per PI. &nbsp;The=
y Route Group allows further control of the visibility based on source-base=
d routing, and other routing selection algorithms that, at this time, would=
 be vendor specific since they are not
 in the protocol (e.g. time-of-day, cost, etc).<o:p></o:p></span></font></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">&#8220;</span></font>In this case, whe=
n an originating SSP wants to know the routes records associated to TN 1 fo=
r example&#8230;.&#8221;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">KJC:&nbsp; The second paragraph in you=
r note attempts to describe part of the resolution process, I&#8217;ve incl=
uded the first part of your statement
 above.&nbsp; It basically says that the resolution process is somehow diff=
erent if Route Recs are directly associated with the PI than if they are as=
sociated with the Route Group. &nbsp;This is not accurate.&nbsp; First off,=
 SPPP does not attempt to define how resolution
 servers must evaluate the data that SPP provisions. &nbsp;Doing so would b=
e folly, since TN resolution logic is much too involved, and often situatio=
n specific, including looking at data sources that do not even come in over=
 SPPP (e.g. portability data, etc, etc).&nbsp;
 However, the basic logic involves (1) using the lookup key (e.g. a TN) and=
 the source of the query to get the Destination Groups that contain that lo=
okup key that are visible to that source based on the Route Groups that tha=
t source has accepted (or auto-accepted),
 (2) collecting the Route Recs that are on the Route Group(s) if any and/or=
 the PI if any, (3) evaluating the Route Recs based on their priority (and =
other vendor specific resolution logic, which the protocol does not attempt=
 to specify), then sending the collected
 Route Recs out in the resolution response.&nbsp; Notice that there are not=
 two different flows.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">KJC:&nbsp; But from a bigger picture p=
erspective, when the proposal was brought up yesterday, it was brought up u=
nder the guise that &#8220;the
 current data model is broken and it a hack in this area, so we need to do =
X, Y and Z&#8221;. &nbsp;This is simply not accurate, as I&#8217;ve describ=
ed above.&nbsp; Secondly, the proposed alternative simply does not work in =
terms of scalability for the User ENUM use case. &nbsp;The
 proposal would result in millions of Route Recs (since in the user enum ca=
se the Route Recs contain PI specific data) having to be offered and accept=
ed.&nbsp; So even the primary target use case of the proposal just does not=
 work well.&nbsp; So given that the current
 model is not &#8220;broken&#8221; and is not a &#8220;hack&#8221; and give=
n that the new proposal does not scale for the user enum use case, why add =
in the additional complexity that results from the new proposal?<o:p></o:p>=
</span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Ken<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><font=
 size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center" tabindex=3D"-1">
</span></font></div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Tahoma"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold">From:</span></font></b><font size=3D"2=
" face=3D"Tahoma"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma"> drin=
ks-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:drinks-bounces@ietf.org]
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">On Behalf Of </span></b>Mickael Marrach=
e<br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Friday, March 02, 2012=
 5:38 AM<br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName w:st=3D"=
on">drinks@ietf.org</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> [drinks] SPPF chang=
es proposal</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:
12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:
12.0pt">Hi DRINKS,<br>
<br>
Following the conversation we had today, I would like to speak about the is=
sue raised by David concerning the data model.<br>
<br>
Please, let's take a look at the figure present in the joined SPPF-user ENU=
M.jpg file.<br>
<br>
To meet the requirements deduced from the user ENUM use case, a direct asso=
ciation between the TN and route record types has been added. In this case,=
 we have each TN associated to a route record directly. But, since peering =
is defined at the route group level,
 there is no easy possibility to share these direct associations. So, one s=
olution is to include these route records in a dummy (since the included ro=
ute records have not common routes) destination group DG-1. Then, we also c=
reate a dummy (since it doesn't
 contain any route) route group RG-1 and associate it to DG-1. Then, the ro=
ute group may be offered to a peering organization.<br>
<br>
The aforementioned solution disturbs me in two points. First, since the des=
tination group DG-1 and the route group RG-1 are not used for their primary=
 reason (a destination group allows grouping of public identifiers that sha=
re a common set of routes, and a
 route group is generally used to group route records that may correspond t=
o a same &quot;destination&quot; - that's why we share them as a block), it=
 reveals a potential design issue. That's what I have qualified them as dum=
my before. That's the first impression I had
 when I heard this solution. The second point I want to raise concerns the =
complexity added by this solution. In this case, when an originating SSP wa=
nts to know the routes records associated to TN 1 for example, we directly =
see that there is a route record
 associated to it (RR 1). But, we don't know if this route record is access=
ible by the originating SSP. So, we need to get the enclosing destination g=
roup DG-1 and then the route group RG-1. We then check in its list of peeri=
ng organizations if the originating
 SSP exists. Then, the route record RR 1 (obtained from the telephone numbe=
r) is returned if the SSP is authorized. You will note that this processing=
 is not the regular one described by SPPF. In general, we get the destinati=
on group associated to the queried
 public identifier, then the route group, and then the associated route rec=
ords if authorized. Why do we need to use a different processing for the sa=
me kind of problem? After all, we just want to get the route records associ=
ated to the telephone number TN-1
 in a user ENUM scenario (it's a banal scenario among many of them), as we =
want to get the route records associated to another public identifier in a =
regular scenario. That's what we have here: two symptoms that reveal a desi=
gn issue.<br>
<br>
Now, let's take a look at the UML class diagram present in the joined Propo=
sedModel-SPPF.jpg file.<br>
<br>
By using the abstraction defined by the abstract types PubIdentElement and =
RouteElement, it allows defining a many to many relationship between public=
 identifier elements (i.e. single PI or destination group) and route elemen=
ts (i.e. single route record or
 route group). This relationship is represented by the class-association Ro=
utingAssoc. This association links zero or more public identifier elements =
to zero or more route elements. Also, to solve the scalability issue raised=
 by Ken in the case one registrant
 organization has to offer a huge number of associations (previously route =
groups), we may use the same grouping concept for routing associations, rep=
resented by the AssocGroup type. Thus, we define a ShareableElement type th=
at represents the basic entity that
 may be shared by a registrant organization.<br>
<br>
This model gives the possibility to define 4 combinations of associations:<=
o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-=
alt:auto;
     mso-list:l1 level1 lfo1">
<font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">=
Public identifier - Route record (solving user ENUM issue plus the possibil=
ity to link a single RN/TNP/TNR to a route record)<o:p></o:p></span></font>
</li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bo=
ttom-alt:auto;
     mso-list:l1 level1 lfo1">
<font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">=
Public identifier - Route group (same as previous but with more than one ro=
ute record)<o:p></o:p></span></font>
</li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bo=
ttom-alt:auto;
     mso-list:l1 level1 lfo1">
<font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">=
Destination group - Route record<o:p></o:p></span></font>
</li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bo=
ttom-alt:auto;
     mso-list:l1 level1 lfo1">
<font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">=
Destination group - Route group (regular scenario)<o:p></o:p></span></font>
</li></ul>
<p><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0p=
t">I don't think it's a big amount of change. The point here is to introduc=
e an abstraction, and to use an intermediary type between the public identi=
fier element and the route element. This
 intermediary type should be used for peering. After all, the valuable info=
rmation that is shared is an association between public identifiers and rou=
tes, thus using a dedicated type for this association should be the solutio=
n.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0p=
t">Also, I still think the peering aspect of this protocol should be define=
d in a separated protocol that would support much more use cases than a sim=
ple offer/accept model. I think we should
 have two standards, each one focusing on a specific aspect of the problem,=
 so we can decouple the two problems. Then, the users would have the choice=
 to use the routing provisioning protocol or the peering protocol or both.<=
o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0p=
t">Maybe I'm missing something here, so if you see any issue (e.g. concerni=
ng scalability) caused by this data model, please let me know. I would be h=
appy to hear your comments on these propositions.<o:p></o:p></span></font><=
/p>
<p><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0p=
t">Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0p=
t">Mickael<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<hr>
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Any unauthorised review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If =
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Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 19:55:00 +0200
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From: Mickael Marrache <mickaelmarrache@gmail.com>
To: "Cartwright, Ken" <kcartwright@tnsi.com>, drinks@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [drinks] SPPF changes proposal
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Hi Ken,

=93To meet the requirements deduced from the user ENUM use case, a direct
> association between the TN and route record types has been added=94
>
> KJC:  Nothing has been =93added=94, the data model has been this way for =
at
> least two years now.
>

You're right. Sorry for saying something I didn't check.



> =93So, one solution is to include these route records in a dummy (since t=
he
> included route records have not common routes) destination group DG-1.
> Then, we also create a dummy (since it doesn't contain any route) route
> group RG-1 and associate it to DG-1. Then, the route group may be offered
> to a peering organization.=94
>
>
>
> KJC: The Destination Group and the Route Group you refer to as =93Dummys=
=94,
> are not =93Dummys=94 they are an integral and expected part of the data
> structure.
>
>
>
> =93First, since the destination group DG-1 and the route group RG-1 are n=
ot
> used for their primary reason (a destination group allows grouping of
> public identifiers that share a common set of routes, and a route group i=
s
> generally used to group route records that may correspond to a same
> "destination" - that's why we share them as a block), it reveals a
> potential design issue.=94
>
>
>
> KJC:  The Route Group you refer to as =93not contain any route rec=94 is =
not
> accurate.  It may or may not contain Route Recs.  It is up to the
> registrant and registrar to decide whether they wish to have route recs o=
n
> a given route group, regardless of whether they have also decided to have
> Route Recs directly associated with a PI (i.e. in the user ENUM case, whe=
re
> some PIs will/may have Route Recs that contain info that is specific to
> that PI).  The model allows both, depending on the Registrar=92s Registra=
nt=92s
> need.
>


So, the route group may or may not contain route records.

If it doesn't contain route records, I understand that it is only used to
share the route records directly associated to the PIs. In this case, do
you agree that it is not a *real *route group (i.e. a construct that allows
regrouping route records that correspond to a same destination)?

If it does contain route records, I understand that it plays two roles: it
allows sharing the route records directly associated to the PIs as
previously, and it allows sharing the route records that correspond to a
same destination.



KJC:  The Destination Group and Route Groups involved here _*do*_ in fact
> serve the purpose that they are designed to serve.  They allow the peerin=
g
> visibility of large numbers of public identities and their routing
> information to be controlled at an aggregate with just a few number of AP=
I
> calls, as apposed to millions (one per PI or Route Rec).  They allow the
> Destination Group to be associated or disassociated to from one or more
> Route Group objects in a single command as the need arises, they allow th=
e
> Route Group to be offered/accepted in a single command, rather than one p=
er
> route rec (which there would be millions of in the User ENUM case) or one
> per PI.  They Route Group allows further control of the visibility based =
on
> source-based routing, and other routing selection algorithms that, at thi=
s
> time, would be vendor specific since they are not in the protocol (e.g.
> time-of-day, cost, etc).
>

In the proposed model, this property is still true. It also allows the
peering visibility of a large number of public identifiers and their
routing information also using an aggregate (you will note that we didn't
remove the destination and route groups constructs) with a few number of
API calls. And I disagree when you say that the proposed model requires
offering to be done per route in the user ENUM case. When a huge number of
PIs are associated to route records directly (though a RoutingAssoc
element), you are not forced to offer each one of these associations, you
simply need to regroup them in an association group and to share this
association group, I don't see here any scalability issue.

Also, source based routing is also present in the proposed data model, in
the ShareableElement type.



=93In this case, when an originating SSP wants to know the routes records
> associated to TN 1 for example=85.=94
>
>
>
> KJC:  The second paragraph in your note attempts to describe part of the
> resolution process, I=92ve included the first part of your statement abov=
e.
> It basically says that the resolution process is somehow different if Rou=
te
> Recs are directly associated with the PI than if they are associated with
> the Route Group.  This is not accurate.  First off, SPPP does not attempt
> to define how resolution servers must evaluate the data that SPP
> provisions.  Doing so would be folly, since TN resolution logic is much t=
oo
> involved, and often situation specific, including looking at data sources
> that do not even come in over SPPP (e.g. portability data, etc, etc).
> However, the basic logic involves (1) using the lookup key (e.g. a TN) an=
d
> the source of the query to get the Destination Groups that contain that
> lookup key that are visible to that source based on the Route Groups that
> that source has accepted (or auto-accepted), (2) collecting the Route Rec=
s
> that are on the Route Group(s) if any and/or the PI if any, (3) evaluatin=
g
> the Route Recs based on their priority (and other vendor specific
> resolution logic, which the protocol does not attempt to specify), then
> sending the collected Route Recs out in the resolution response.  Notice
> that there are not two different flows.
>


My comment for this point is related to the fact that a route group plays
the two roles mentioned previously. Playing what I call the basic role
(regrouping route records corresponding to the same destination) and the
disturbing role (allowing offer for route records directly associated to
PIs) is simply not intuitive. And, that's why David qualified this role as
a hack. It's not a derision for the current model, it is simply the fact
that there is something that is at the wrong place.

Also, I didn't get an answer concerning the possibility to associate a
single TNR, TNP or RN directly to one or more route records. Would we add
also a direct association from RN, TNR or TNP to route record?




KJC:  But from a bigger picture perspective, when the proposal was brought
> up yesterday, it was brought up under the guise that =93the current data
> model is broken and it a hack in this area, so we need to do X, Y and Z=
=94.
>  This is simply not accurate, as I=92ve described above.  Secondly, the
> proposed alternative simply does not work in terms of scalability for the
> User ENUM use case.  The proposal would result in millions of Route Recs
> (since in the user enum case the Route Recs contain PI specific data)
> having to be offered and accepted.  So even the primary target use case o=
f
> the proposal just does not work well.  So given that the current model is
> not =93broken=94 and is not a =93hack=94 and given that the new proposal =
does not
> scale for the user enum use case, why add in the additional complexity th=
at
> results from the new proposal?
>

At this point, I still don't understand why the proposed model is not
accurate. I don't understand why millions of route records have to been
offered and accepted? I think grouping associations solves this problem.
Please, can you illustrate by a scenario or diagram (especially for the
User ENUM use case)?


I just want to precise that my comments are not intended to create
conflicts in any manner especially when I see that it's late to raise such
propositions and that the draft will become soon a RFC. I'm just trying to
add my efforts to this framework/protocol.

Thanks

Mickael

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><font color=3D"navy"><font><font face=3D"Arial"><span styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">Hi Ken,</span><br><br></font></font></font><blockquo=
te style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204)=
;padding-left:1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">=93</span></font>To meet the =
requirements deduced from the user ENUM use case, a direct association betw=
een the TN and route record types
 has been added=94</p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" face=3D"A=
rial"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">KJC:=A0=
 Nothing has been =93added=94, the data model has been this way for at leas=
t two years now.</span></font></p>
</blockquote><div><br>You&#39;re right. Sorry for saying something I didn&#=
39;t check.=A0 <br><br></div>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">=A0</span></font></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204=
,204,204);padding-left:1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><f=
ont color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fami=
ly:Arial;color:navy">=93</span></font>So,
 one solution is to include these route records in a dummy (since the=20
included route records have not common routes)
 destination group DG-1. Then, we also create a dummy (since it doesn&#39;t=
=20
contain any route) route group RG-1 and associate it to DG-1. Then, the=20
route group may be offered to a peering organization.=94</p><p class=3D"Mso=
Normal"><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.0pt">=A0</span></font></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" fa=
ce=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">=
KJC:
 The Destination Group and the Route Group you refer to as =93Dummys=94, ar=
e
 not =93Dummys=94 they are an integral and expected part of the
 data structure.</span></font></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Time=
s New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">=A0</span></font><=
/p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:12.0pt">=93First,
 since the destination group DG-1 and the route group RG-1 are not used=20
for their primary reason (a destination group allows grouping of public=20
identifiers that
 share a common set of routes, and a route group is generally used to=20
group route records that may correspond to a same &quot;destination&quot; -=
 that&#39;s
 why we share them as a block), it reveals a potential design issue.=94</sp=
an></font><font color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0=
pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"></span></font></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><=
font color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fam=
ily:Arial;color:navy">=A0</span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">KJC:=A0
 The Route Group you refer to as =93not contain any route rec=94 is not=20
accurate.=A0 It may or may not contain Route Recs.=A0 It is up to
 the registrant and registrar to decide whether they wish to have route=20
recs on a given route group, regardless of whether they have also=20
decided to have Route Recs directly associated with a PI (i.e. in the=20
user ENUM case, where some PIs will/may have Route
 Recs that contain info that is specific to that PI).=A0 The model allows=
=20
both, depending on the Registrar=92s Registrant=92s need.</span></font></p>=
</blockquote>








<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">=A0</span></font></p><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size=
:10pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><font color=3D"#000000">So, the route g=
roup may or may not contain route records.</font></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><font color=3D"#000000"> If it =
doesn&#39;t contain route records, I understand that it is only used to sha=
re the route records directly associated to the PIs. In this case, do you a=
gree that it is not a <i>real </i>route group (i.e. a construct that allows=
 regrouping route records that correspond to a same destination)?</font></s=
pan></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><font color=3D"#000000">If it d=
oes contain route records, I understand that it plays two roles: it allows =
sharing the route records directly associated to the PIs as previously, and=
 it allows sharing the route records that correspond to a same destination.=
</font></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br><font color=3D"na=
vy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial;color:na=
vy"></span></font></p><blockquote style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">KJC:=A0 The Destination Group=
 and Route Groups involved here _<i><span style=3D"font-style:italic">do</s=
pan></i>_
 in fact serve the purpose
 that they are designed to serve. =A0They allow the peering visibility of=
=20
large numbers of public identities and their routing information to be=20
controlled at an aggregate with just a few number of API calls, as=20
apposed to millions (one per PI or Route Rec).
 =A0They allow the Destination Group to be associated or disassociated to=
=20
from one or more Route Group objects in a single command as the need=20
arises, they allow the Route Group to be offered/accepted in a single=20
command, rather than one per route rec (which
 there would be millions of in the User ENUM case) or one per PI. =A0They=
=20
Route Group allows further control of the visibility based on=20
source-based routing, and other routing selection algorithms that, at=20
this time, would be vendor specific since they are not
 in the protocol (e.g. time-of-day, cost, etc).</span></font></p></blockquo=
te><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br><font color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span sty=
le=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"></span></font></p><p cla=
ss=3D"MsoNormal">
<font color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-fami=
ly:Arial;color:navy"><font color=3D"#000000">In the proposed model, this pr=
operty is still true. It also allows the peering visibility of a large numb=
er of public identifiers and their routing information also using an aggreg=
ate (you will note that we didn&#39;t remove the destination and route grou=
ps constructs) with a few number of API calls. And I disagree when you say =
that the proposed model requires offering to be done per route in the user =
ENUM case. When a huge number of PIs are associated to route records direct=
ly (though a RoutingAssoc element), you are not forced to offer each one of=
 these associations, you simply need to regroup them in an association grou=
p and to share this association group, I don&#39;t see here any scalability=
 issue.</font></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><font color=3D"#000000">Also, s=
ource based routing is also present in the proposed data model, in the Shar=
eableElement type.</font></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br><font color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=
=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"></span></font></p><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size=
:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><br>
</span></font></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204=
,204,204);padding-left:1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><f=
ont color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fami=
ly:Arial;color:navy">=93</span></font>In this case, when an originating SSP=
 wants to know the routes records associated to TN 1 for example=85.=94</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">=A0</span></font></p><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size=
:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">KJC:=A0
 The second paragraph in your note attempts to describe part of the=20
resolution process, I=92ve included the first part of your statement
 above.=A0 It basically says that the resolution process is somehow=20
different if Route Recs are directly associated with the PI than if they
 are associated with the Route Group. =A0This is not accurate.=A0 First off=
,
 SPPP does not attempt to define how resolution
 servers must evaluate the data that SPP provisions. =A0Doing so would be=
=20
folly, since TN resolution logic is much too involved, and often=20
situation specific, including looking at data sources that do not even=20
come in over SPPP (e.g. portability data, etc, etc).=A0
 However, the basic logic involves (1) using the lookup key (e.g. a TN)=20
and the source of the query to get the Destination Groups that contain=20
that lookup key that are visible to that source based on the Route=20
Groups that that source has accepted (or auto-accepted),
 (2) collecting the Route Recs that are on the Route Group(s) if any=20
and/or the PI if any, (3) evaluating the Route Recs based on their=20
priority (and other vendor specific resolution logic, which the protocol
 does not attempt to specify), then sending the collected
 Route Recs out in the resolution response.=A0 Notice that there are not=20
two different flows.</span></font></p></blockquote>


<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">=A0</span></font></p><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size=
:10pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><font color=3D"#000000">My comment for =
this point is related to the fact that a route group plays the two roles me=
ntioned previously. Playing what I call the basic role (regrouping route re=
cords corresponding to the same destination) and the disturbing role (allow=
ing offer for route records directly associated to PIs) is simply not intui=
tive. And, that&#39;s why David qualified this role as a hack. It&#39;s not=
 a derision for the current model, it is simply the fact that there is some=
thing that is at the wrong place.</font></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><font color=3D"#000000">Also,=
 I didn&#39;t get an answer concerning the possibility to associate a singl=
e TNR, TNP or RN directly to one or more route records. Would we add also a=
 direct association from RN, TNR or TNP to route record?</font><br>
</span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">=A0</span></font></p><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size=
:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><br>
</span></font></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204=
,204,204);padding-left:1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><f=
ont color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fami=
ly:Arial;color:navy">KJC:=A0
 But from a bigger picture perspective, when the proposal was brought up
 yesterday, it was brought up under the guise that =93the
 current data model is broken and it a hack in this area, so we need to=20
do X, Y and Z=94. =A0This is simply not accurate, as I=92ve described above=
.=A0=20
Secondly, the proposed alternative simply does not work in terms of=20
scalability for the User ENUM use case. =A0The
 proposal would result in millions of Route Recs (since in the user enum
 case the Route Recs contain PI specific data) having to be offered and=20
accepted.=A0 So even the primary target use case of the proposal just does
 not work well.=A0 So given that the current
 model is not =93broken=94 and is not a =93hack=94 and given that the new=
=20
proposal does not scale for the user enum use case, why add in the=20
additional complexity that results from the new proposal?</span></font></p>=
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">=A0</span></font></p>
<font color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:Arial;color:navy"><font color=3D"#000000">At this point, I still don&#=
39;t understand why the proposed model is not accurate. I don&#39;t underst=
and why millions of route records have to been offered and accepted? I thin=
k grouping associations solves this problem. Please, can you illustrate by =
a scenario or diagram (especially for the User ENUM use case)?</font></span=
></font><br>
<br><br>I just want to precise that my comments are not intended to create =
conflicts in any manner especially when I see that it&#39;s late to raise s=
uch propositions and that the draft will become soon a RFC. I&#39;m just tr=
ying to add my efforts to this framework/protocol.<br>
<br>Thanks<br><br>Mickael<br></div>

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Thread-Topic: DRINKS design team minutes (DRAFT) from 2012-02-29
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From: "Alexander Mayrhofer" <alexander.mayrhofer@nic.at>
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Hi,

Please finde attached the draft minutes from the design team call from
Feb 29. Sorry for the very late posting of the minutes.

Alex


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From: "Alexander Mayrhofer" <alexander.mayrhofer@nic.at>
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Hi,

please find the draft minutes from the second DRINKS design team call
last week. Again, sorry for the delay in posting the minutes. If you
have additional notes from the meeting, please feel free to send them to
me so that i can include them.

thanks,

Alex


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Subject: [drinks] FW: New Proposal for Telephone-Related Queries
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For those not subscribed to the DISPATCH mailing list...

- S

-----Original Message-----
From: dispatch-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:dispatch-bounces@ietf.org] On Behal=
f Of Peterson, Jon
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2012 3:05 PM
To: 'dispatch@ietf.org'
Subject: Re: [dispatch] New Proposal for Telephone-Related Queries


Oops, sorry, my mailer did not like the URL I submitted. The correct URL fo=
r the draft is:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-peterson-terq/


<snip>


 -----Original Message-----
From: 	Peterson, Jon [mailto:jon.peterson@neustar.biz]
Sent:	Monday, March 05, 2012 04:51 PM Eastern Standard Time
To:	dispatch@ietf.org
Subject:	[dispatch] New Proposal for Telephone-Related Queries


I have a proposal to bounce off the group. Basically, this is a re-examinat=
ion of some of the problems we've previously considered in the telephony-sp=
ecific cluster of work surrounding ENUM, DRINKS and SPEERMINT. Through disc=
ussions in the past couple years, it's become clear that we would need to s=
ignificantly extend ENUM to get it to handle all of the sorts of sources, s=
ubjects, and attributes that people want to factor into queries about telep=
hone number routing and administration. Most of these discussions have gott=
en wrapped around the axle on questions of the underlying syntax and semant=
ics of the DNS, which were a good match for the original vision of a public=
, user-driven ENUM, but don't seem to be such a good match for the uses peo=
ple actually want to make of these protocols, in federated, service-provide=
r-driven environments like those envisioned in SPEERMINT and provisioned in=
 DRINKS. While the discussion may have died down a bit, the requirements th=
at motivated th  e discussion definitely aren't going away.

Rather than continue to debate the applicability of the DNS and the probity=
 of various extensions to it, we might make more progress if we work toward=
s agreement on the semantics of queries for telephone-related data independ=
ently of any underlying protocols. In other words, focus on what kinds of q=
uestions about telephone numbers we want to be able to ask, and what kinds =
of information needs to go into the answers, and incorporate all this into =
an abstract data model. So for example, we know that we want to be able to =
express the source of a request in a query. What do we mean by source? I ca=
n think of a bunch of different kinds of source: the logical originator of =
the query (the administrative entity asking), the logical identity of any i=
ntermediary or aggregator forwarding the query, or even the point at the ne=
twork from which the call originates (the originating trunk group, SBC or w=
hat have you). All three of those concepts of source seem important when it=
 comes to answe  ring questions about telephone numbers, so a data model wo=
uld treat those as separate elements which can vary independently - then we=
 can then try to figure out what's mandatory or optional, etc. We follow th=
is same method for all the elements of queries and responses. Figure out wh=
at the attributes are of telephone numbers that we care about, sort them in=
to buckets of routing data and administrative data, and so on.

Once we have an agreement on the data model, then people can map the model =
to whatever underlying protocol they'd like - or just build it into a web A=
PI, or what have you. Those proposals could advance as separate documents. =
Having that flexibility would make it a lot easier to figure out what we re=
ally want the questions and answers to be, rather than thinking about what =
they realistically can be within the constraints of some existing underlyin=
g protocol.

That's the idea. I'm not going to present a proposed charter for work or an=
ything like that in Paris, but I am interested in hearing if people think t=
his is a promising approach, and if so, perhaps we'd put a charter on the a=
genda for Vancouver. I have however submitted a -00 draft for this time whi=
ch gives a high-level proposal for a data model and at least enumerates wha=
t some of the elements might be that would be populated in queries and resp=
onses. This is a pretty broad sketch, but it should convey the basic idea. =
You can check it out here:
https://exchcas.va.neustar.com/owa/thoughts about the direction or the spec=
ifics of the data model are welcome. Thanks!

Jon Peterson
NeuStar, Inc.
=20


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From: "Cartwright, Ken" <kcartwright@tnsi.com>
To: Mickael Marrache <mickaelmarrache@gmail.com>, "drinks@ietf.org" <drinks@ietf.org>
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 17:54:47 -0500
Thread-Topic: [drinks] SPPF changes proposal
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Subject: Re: [drinks] SPPF changes proposal
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Hi Mickael,

1) Maybe if you could provide/describe a new use case that the current mode=
l does not support then the need for the proposal would be clearer.

2) In the current model the Route Recs associated to a Route Group are inte=
nded to be applicableTo/appropriateFor multiple/many PIs.  A Route Rec dire=
ctly associated to a PI is intended to be applicableTo/appropriateFor just =
that PI (e.g. contain PI specific info such as in user ENUM).  Given that, =
why would we also want the PIs that are directly associated to a PI to be p=
art of a named group, so that they could be easily associated to multiple/m=
any PIs.

3) And in regards to your statement... "Also, I didn't get an answer concer=
ning the possibility to associate a single TNR, TNP or RN directly to one o=
r more route records. Would we add also a direct association from RN, TNR o=
r TNP to route record?"  Sorry, but I guess I missed that question in your =
original email.  I'm not fully clear on the question, but I think it may be=
 answered by understanding point 2 above.
Ken

________________________________
From: Mickael Marrache [mailto:mickaelmarrache@gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2012 12:55 PM
To: Cartwright, Ken; drinks@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [drinks] SPPF changes proposal

Hi Ken,
"To meet the requirements deduced from the user ENUM use case, a direct ass=
ociation between the TN and route record types has been added"
KJC:  Nothing has been "added", the data model has been this way for at lea=
st two years now.

You're right. Sorry for saying something I didn't check.

"So, one solution is to include these route records in a dummy (since the i=
ncluded route records have not common routes) destination group DG-1. Then,=
 we also create a dummy (since it doesn't contain any route) route group RG=
-1 and associate it to DG-1. Then, the route group may be offered to a peer=
ing organization."

KJC: The Destination Group and the Route Group you refer to as "Dummys", ar=
e not "Dummys" they are an integral and expected part of the data structure=
.

"First, since the destination group DG-1 and the route group RG-1 are not u=
sed for their primary reason (a destination group allows grouping of public=
 identifiers that share a common set of routes, and a route group is genera=
lly used to group route records that may correspond to a same "destination"=
 - that's why we share them as a block), it reveals a potential design issu=
e."

KJC:  The Route Group you refer to as "not contain any route rec" is not ac=
curate.  It may or may not contain Route Recs.  It is up to the registrant =
and registrar to decide whether they wish to have route recs on a given rou=
te group, regardless of whether they have also decided to have Route Recs d=
irectly associated with a PI (i.e. in the user ENUM case, where some PIs wi=
ll/may have Route Recs that contain info that is specific to that PI).  The=
 model allows both, depending on the Registrar's Registrant's need.

So, the route group may or may not contain route records.
If it doesn't contain route records, I understand that it is only used to s=
hare the route records directly associated to the PIs. In this case, do you=
 agree that it is not a real route group (i.e. a construct that allows regr=
ouping route records that correspond to a same destination)?
If it does contain route records, I understand that it plays two roles: it =
allows sharing the route records directly associated to the PIs as previous=
ly, and it allows sharing the route records that correspond to a same desti=
nation.


KJC:  The Destination Group and Route Groups involved here _do_ in fact ser=
ve the purpose that they are designed to serve.  They allow the peering vis=
ibility of large numbers of public identities and their routing information=
 to be controlled at an aggregate with just a few number of API calls, as a=
pposed to millions (one per PI or Route Rec).  They allow the Destination G=
roup to be associated or disassociated to from one or more Route Group obje=
cts in a single command as the need arises, they allow the Route Group to b=
e offered/accepted in a single command, rather than one per route rec (whic=
h there would be millions of in the User ENUM case) or one per PI.  They Ro=
ute Group allows further control of the visibility based on source-based ro=
uting, and other routing selection algorithms that, at this time, would be =
vendor specific since they are not in the protocol (e.g. time-of-day, cost,=
 etc).

In the proposed model, this property is still true. It also allows the peer=
ing visibility of a large number of public identifiers and their routing in=
formation also using an aggregate (you will note that we didn't remove the =
destination and route groups constructs) with a few number of API calls. An=
d I disagree when you say that the proposed model requires offering to be d=
one per route in the user ENUM case. When a huge number of PIs are associat=
ed to route records directly (though a RoutingAssoc element), you are not f=
orced to offer each one of these associations, you simply need to regroup t=
hem in an association group and to share this association group, I don't se=
e here any scalability issue.
Also, source based routing is also present in the proposed data model, in t=
he ShareableElement type.


"In this case, when an originating SSP wants to know the routes records ass=
ociated to TN 1 for example...."

KJC:  The second paragraph in your note attempts to describe part of the re=
solution process, I've included the first part of your statement above.  It=
 basically says that the resolution process is somehow different if Route R=
ecs are directly associated with the PI than if they are associated with th=
e Route Group.  This is not accurate.  First off, SPPP does not attempt to =
define how resolution servers must evaluate the data that SPP provisions.  =
Doing so would be folly, since TN resolution logic is much too involved, an=
d often situation specific, including looking at data sources that do not e=
ven come in over SPPP (e.g. portability data, etc, etc).  However, the basi=
c logic involves (1) using the lookup key (e.g. a TN) and the source of the=
 query to get the Destination Groups that contain that lookup key that are =
visible to that source based on the Route Groups that that source has accep=
ted (or auto-accepted), (2) collecting the Route Recs that are on the Route=
 Group(s) if any and/or the PI if any, (3) evaluating the Route Recs based =
on their priority (and other vendor specific resolution logic, which the pr=
otocol does not attempt to specify), then sending the collected Route Recs =
out in the resolution response.  Notice that there are not two different fl=
ows.

My comment for this point is related to the fact that a route group plays t=
he two roles mentioned previously. Playing what I call the basic role (regr=
ouping route records corresponding to the same destination) and the disturb=
ing role (allowing offer for route records directly associated to PIs) is s=
imply not intuitive. And, that's why David qualified this role as a hack. I=
t's not a derision for the current model, it is simply the fact that there =
is something that is at the wrong place.
Also, I didn't get an answer concerning the possibility to associate a sing=
le TNR, TNP or RN directly to one or more route records. Would we add also =
a direct association from RN, TNR or TNP to route record?


KJC:  But from a bigger picture perspective, when the proposal was brought =
up yesterday, it was brought up under the guise that "the current data mode=
l is broken and it a hack in this area, so we need to do X, Y and Z".  This=
 is simply not accurate, as I've described above.  Secondly, the proposed a=
lternative simply does not work in terms of scalability for the User ENUM u=
se case.  The proposal would result in millions of Route Recs (since in the=
 user enum case the Route Recs contain PI specific data) having to be offer=
ed and accepted.  So even the primary target use case of the proposal just =
does not work well.  So given that the current model is not "broken" and is=
 not a "hack" and given that the new proposal does not scale for the user e=
num use case, why add in the additional complexity that results from the ne=
w proposal?

At this point, I still don't understand why the proposed model is not accur=
ate. I don't understand why millions of route records have to been offered =
and accepted? I think grouping associations solves this problem. Please, ca=
n you illustrate by a scenario or diagram (especially for the User ENUM use=
 case)?


I just want to precise that my comments are not intended to create conflict=
s in any manner especially when I see that it's late to raise such proposit=
ions and that the draft will become soon a RFC. I'm just trying to add my e=
fforts to this framework/protocol.

Thanks

Mickael

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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Hi Mickael,<o:p></o:p></span></font></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">1) Maybe if you could provide/describe=
 a new use case that the current model does not support then the need for t=
he proposal would be
 clearer.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">2) In the current model the Route Recs=
 associated to a Route Group are intended to be applicableTo/appropriateFor=
 multiple/many PIs.
 &nbsp;A Route Rec directly associated to a PI is intended to be applicable=
To/appropriateFor just that PI (e.g. contain PI specific info such as in us=
er ENUM). &nbsp;Given that, why would we also want the PIs that are directl=
y associated to a PI to be part of a named
 group, so that they could be easily associated to multiple/many PIs.<o:p><=
/o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy">3) And in regards to your statement&#8230; &#8220;</span></font=
><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:1=
0.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black">Also,
 I didn't get an answer concerning the possibility to associate a single TN=
R, TNP or RN directly to one or more route records. Would we add also a dir=
ect association from RN, TNR or TNP to route record?&#8221;&nbsp;
</span></font><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D=
"font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:navy">Sorry, but I guess I missed that question in =
your original email. &nbsp;I&#8217;m not fully clear on the question, but I=
 think it may be answered by understanding
 point 2 above.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Ken<i><span style=3D"font-style:italic=
">
</span></i></span></font><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><sp=
an style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><font=
 size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center" tabindex=3D"-1">
</span></font></div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Tahoma"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold">From:</span></font></b><font size=3D"2=
" face=3D"Tahoma"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma"> Mick=
ael Marrache [mailto:mickaelmarrache@gmail.com]
<br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Saturday, March 03, 20=
12 12:55 PM<br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> Cartwright, Ken; <st1:Pe=
rsonName w:st=3D"on">
drinks@ietf.org</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: [drinks] SPPF c=
hanges proposal</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:
12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><font size=3D"3" colo=
r=3D"black" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Aria=
l;color:black">Hi Ken,</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy">&#8220;</span></font>To meet the requirements deduced from the =
user ENUM use case,
 a direct association between the TN and route record types has been added&=
#8221;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy">KJC:&nbsp; Nothing has been &#8220;added&#8221;, the data model=
 has been this way for at least
 two years now.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><font size=3D"3" face=
=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><br>
You're right. Sorry for saying something I didn't check.&nbsp; <o:p></o:p><=
/span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy">&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;
margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy">&#8220;</span></font>So, one solution is to include these route=
 records in a dummy
 (since the included route records have not common routes) destination grou=
p DG-1. Then, we also create a dummy (since it doesn't contain any route) r=
oute group RG-1 and associate it to DG-1. Then, the route group may be offe=
red to a peering organization.&#8221;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"font-size=
:12.0pt">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy">KJC: The Destination Group and the Route Group you refer to as =
&#8220;Dummys&#8221;, are
 not &#8220;Dummys&#8221; they are an integral and expected part of the dat=
a structure.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"font-size=
:12.0pt">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"font-size=
:12.0pt">&#8220;First, since the destination group DG-1 and the route group=
 RG-1 are not used for their primary reason (a destination
 group allows grouping of public identifiers that share a common set of rou=
tes, and a route group is generally used to group route records that may co=
rrespond to a same &quot;destination&quot; - that's why we share them as a =
block), it reveals a potential design issue.&#8221;<o:p></o:p></span></font=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy">&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy">KJC:&nbsp; The Route Group you refer to as &#8220;not contain a=
ny route rec&#8221; is not accurate.&nbsp;
 It may or may not contain Route Recs.&nbsp; It is up to the registrant and=
 registrar to decide whether they wish to have route recs on a given route =
group, regardless of whether they have also decided to have Route Recs dire=
ctly associated with a PI (i.e. in the
 user ENUM case, where some PIs will/may have Route Recs that contain info =
that is specific to that PI).&nbsp; The model allows both, depending on the=
 Registrar&#8217;s Registrant&#8217;s need.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy">&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black">So, the route group may or may not contain route records.</spa=
n></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black">If it doesn't contain route records, I understand that it is o=
nly used to
 share the route records directly associated to the PIs. In this case, do y=
ou agree that it is not a
<i><span style=3D"font-style:italic">real </span></i>route group (i.e. a co=
nstruct that allows regrouping route records that correspond to a same dest=
ination)?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black">If it does contain route records, I understand that it plays t=
wo roles:
 it allows sharing the route records directly associated to the PIs as prev=
iously, and it allows sharing the route records that correspond to a same d=
estination.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"font-size=
:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"font-size=
:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;
margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy">KJC:&nbsp; The Destination Group and Route Groups involved here=
 _<i><span style=3D"font-style:italic">do</span></i>_
 in fact serve the purpose that they are designed to serve. &nbsp;They allo=
w the peering visibility of large numbers of public identities and their ro=
uting information to be controlled at an aggregate with just a few number o=
f API calls, as apposed to millions (one
 per PI or Route Rec). &nbsp;They allow the Destination Group to be associa=
ted or disassociated to from one or more Route Group objects in a single co=
mmand as the need arises, they allow the Route Group to be offered/accepted=
 in a single command, rather than one
 per route rec (which there would be millions of in the User ENUM case) or =
one per PI. &nbsp;They Route Group allows further control of the visibility=
 based on source-based routing, and other routing selection algorithms that=
, at this time, would be vendor specific
 since they are not in the protocol (e.g. time-of-day, cost, etc).</span></=
font><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"font-size=
:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black">In the proposed model, this property is still true. It also al=
lows the peering
 visibility of a large number of public identifiers and their routing infor=
mation also using an aggregate (you will note that we didn't remove the des=
tination and route groups constructs) with a few number of API calls. And I=
 disagree when you say that the
 proposed model requires offering to be done per route in the user ENUM cas=
e. When a huge number of PIs are associated to route records directly (thou=
gh a RoutingAssoc element), you are not forced to offer each one of these a=
ssociations, you simply need to
 regroup them in an association group and to share this association group, =
I don't see here any scalability issue.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black">Also, source based routing is also present in the proposed dat=
a model, in
 the ShareableElement type.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"font-size=
:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"font-size=
:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;
margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy">&#8220;</span></font>In this case, when an originating SSP want=
s to know the routes
 records associated to TN 1 for example&#8230;.&#8221;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy">&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy">KJC:&nbsp; The second paragraph in your note attempts to descri=
be part of the resolution
 process, I&#8217;ve included the first part of your statement above.&nbsp;=
 It basically says that the resolution process is somehow different if Rout=
e Recs are directly associated with the PI than if they are associated with=
 the Route Group. &nbsp;This is not accurate.&nbsp; First
 off, SPPP does not attempt to define how resolution servers must evaluate =
the data that SPP provisions. &nbsp;Doing so would be folly, since TN resol=
ution logic is much too involved, and often situation specific, including l=
ooking at data sources that do not even
 come in over SPPP (e.g. portability data, etc, etc).&nbsp; However, the ba=
sic logic involves (1) using the lookup key (e.g. a TN) and the source of t=
he query to get the Destination Groups that contain that lookup key that ar=
e visible to that source based on the
 Route Groups that that source has accepted (or auto-accepted), (2) collect=
ing the Route Recs that are on the Route Group(s) if any and/or the PI if a=
ny, (3) evaluating the Route Recs based on their priority (and other vendor=
 specific resolution logic, which
 the protocol does not attempt to specify), then sending the collected Rout=
e Recs out in the resolution response.&nbsp; Notice that there are not two =
different flows.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy">&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black">My comment for this point is related to the fact that a route =
group plays
 the two roles mentioned previously. Playing what I call the basic role (re=
grouping route records corresponding to the same destination) and the distu=
rbing role (allowing offer for route records directly associated to PIs) is=
 simply not intuitive. And, that's
 why David qualified this role as a hack. It's not a derision for the curre=
nt model, it is simply the fact that there is something that is at the wron=
g place.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black">Also, I didn't get an answer concerning the possibility to ass=
ociate a single
 TNR, TNP or RN directly to one or more route records. Would we add also a =
direct association from RN, TNR or TNP to route record?</span></font><o:p><=
/o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy">&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"font-size=
:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;
margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy">KJC:&nbsp; But from a bigger picture perspective, when the prop=
osal was brought
 up yesterday, it was brought up under the guise that &#8220;the current da=
ta model is broken and it a hack in this area, so we need to do X, Y and Z&=
#8221;. &nbsp;This is simply not accurate, as I&#8217;ve described above.&n=
bsp; Secondly, the proposed alternative simply does not work
 in terms of scalability for the User ENUM use case. &nbsp;The proposal wou=
ld result in millions of Route Recs (since in the user enum case the Route =
Recs contain PI specific data) having to be offered and accepted.&nbsp; So =
even the primary target use case of the proposal
 just does not work well.&nbsp; So given that the current model is not &#82=
20;broken&#8221; and is not a &#8220;hack&#8221; and given that the new pro=
posal does not scale for the user enum use case, why add in the additional =
complexity that results from the new proposal?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy">&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Arial"><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black">At this point, I still don't understa=
nd why the proposed model is not accurate. I don't understand why millions =
of route records have
 to been offered and accepted? I think grouping associations solves this pr=
oblem. Please, can you illustrate by a scenario or diagram (especially for =
the User ENUM use case)?</span></font><br>
<br>
<br>
I just want to precise that my comments are not intended to create conflict=
s in any manner especially when I see that it's late to raise such proposit=
ions and that the draft will become soon a RFC. I'm just trying to add my e=
fforts to this framework/protocol.<br>
<br>
Thanks<br>
<br>
Mickael<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<hr>
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From: "Cartwright, Ken" <kcartwright@tnsi.com>
To: "Cartwright, Ken" <kcartwright@tnsi.com>, Mickael Marrache <mickaelmarrache@gmail.com>, "drinks@ietf.org" <drinks@ietf.org>
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 18:26:27 -0500
Thread-Topic: [drinks] SPPF changes proposal
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Subject: Re: [drinks] SPPF changes proposal
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Sorry, typo in item 2, it should read
2) In the current model the Route Recs associated to a Route Group are inte=
nded to be applicableTo/appropriateFor multiple/many PIs.  A Route Rec dire=
ctly associated to a PI is intended to be applicableTo/appropriateFor just =
that PI (e.g. contain PI specific info such as in user ENUM).  Given that, =
why would we also want the Route Recs that are directly associated to a PI =
to be part of a named group, so that they could be easily associated to mul=
tiple/many PIs.

________________________________
From: drinks-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:drinks-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of=
 Cartwright, Ken
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2012 5:55 PM
To: Mickael Marrache; drinks@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [drinks] SPPF changes proposal

Hi Mickael,

1) Maybe if you could provide/describe a new use case that the current mode=
l does not support then the need for the proposal would be clearer.

2) In the current model the Route Recs associated to a Route Group are inte=
nded to be applicableTo/appropriateFor multiple/many PIs.  A Route Rec dire=
ctly associated to a PI is intended to be applicableTo/appropriateFor just =
that PI (e.g. contain PI specific info such as in user ENUM).  Given that, =
why would we also want the PIs that are directly associated to a PI to be p=
art of a named group, so that they could be easily associated to multiple/m=
any PIs.

3) And in regards to your statement... "Also, I didn't get an answer concer=
ning the possibility to associate a single TNR, TNP or RN directly to one o=
r more route records. Would we add also a direct association from RN, TNR o=
r TNP to route record?"  Sorry, but I guess I missed that question in your =
original email.  I'm not fully clear on the question, but I think it may be=
 answered by understanding point 2 above.
Ken

________________________________
From: Mickael Marrache [mailto:mickaelmarrache@gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2012 12:55 PM
To: Cartwright, Ken; drinks@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [drinks] SPPF changes proposal

Hi Ken,
"To meet the requirements deduced from the user ENUM use case, a direct ass=
ociation between the TN and route record types has been added"
KJC:  Nothing has been "added", the data model has been this way for at lea=
st two years now.

You're right. Sorry for saying something I didn't check.

"So, one solution is to include these route records in a dummy (since the i=
ncluded route records have not common routes) destination group DG-1. Then,=
 we also create a dummy (since it doesn't contain any route) route group RG=
-1 and associate it to DG-1. Then, the route group may be offered to a peer=
ing organization."

KJC: The Destination Group and the Route Group you refer to as "Dummys", ar=
e not "Dummys" they are an integral and expected part of the data structure=
.

"First, since the destination group DG-1 and the route group RG-1 are not u=
sed for their primary reason (a destination group allows grouping of public=
 identifiers that share a common set of routes, and a route group is genera=
lly used to group route records that may correspond to a same "destination"=
 - that's why we share them as a block), it reveals a potential design issu=
e."

KJC:  The Route Group you refer to as "not contain any route rec" is not ac=
curate.  It may or may not contain Route Recs.  It is up to the registrant =
and registrar to decide whether they wish to have route recs on a given rou=
te group, regardless of whether they have also decided to have Route Recs d=
irectly associated with a PI (i.e. in the user ENUM case, where some PIs wi=
ll/may have Route Recs that contain info that is specific to that PI).  The=
 model allows both, depending on the Registrar's Registrant's need.

So, the route group may or may not contain route records.
If it doesn't contain route records, I understand that it is only used to s=
hare the route records directly associated to the PIs. In this case, do you=
 agree that it is not a real route group (i.e. a construct that allows regr=
ouping route records that correspond to a same destination)?
If it does contain route records, I understand that it plays two roles: it =
allows sharing the route records directly associated to the PIs as previous=
ly, and it allows sharing the route records that correspond to a same desti=
nation.


KJC:  The Destination Group and Route Groups involved here _do_ in fact ser=
ve the purpose that they are designed to serve.  They allow the peering vis=
ibility of large numbers of public identities and their routing information=
 to be controlled at an aggregate with just a few number of API calls, as a=
pposed to millions (one per PI or Route Rec).  They allow the Destination G=
roup to be associated or disassociated to from one or more Route Group obje=
cts in a single command as the need arises, they allow the Route Group to b=
e offered/accepted in a single command, rather than one per route rec (whic=
h there would be millions of in the User ENUM case) or one per PI.  They Ro=
ute Group allows further control of the visibility based on source-based ro=
uting, and other routing selection algorithms that, at this time, would be =
vendor specific since they are not in the protocol (e.g. time-of-day, cost,=
 etc).

In the proposed model, this property is still true. It also allows the peer=
ing visibility of a large number of public identifiers and their routing in=
formation also using an aggregate (you will note that we didn't remove the =
destination and route groups constructs) with a few number of API calls. An=
d I disagree when you say that the proposed model requires offering to be d=
one per route in the user ENUM case. When a huge number of PIs are associat=
ed to route records directly (though a RoutingAssoc element), you are not f=
orced to offer each one of these associations, you simply need to regroup t=
hem in an association group and to share this association group, I don't se=
e here any scalability issue.
Also, source based routing is also present in the proposed data model, in t=
he ShareableElement type.


"In this case, when an originating SSP wants to know the routes records ass=
ociated to TN 1 for example...."

KJC:  The second paragraph in your note attempts to describe part of the re=
solution process, I've included the first part of your statement above.  It=
 basically says that the resolution process is somehow different if Route R=
ecs are directly associated with the PI than if they are associated with th=
e Route Group.  This is not accurate.  First off, SPPP does not attempt to =
define how resolution servers must evaluate the data that SPP provisions.  =
Doing so would be folly, since TN resolution logic is much too involved, an=
d often situation specific, including looking at data sources that do not e=
ven come in over SPPP (e.g. portability data, etc, etc).  However, the basi=
c logic involves (1) using the lookup key (e.g. a TN) and the source of the=
 query to get the Destination Groups that contain that lookup key that are =
visible to that source based on the Route Groups that that source has accep=
ted (or auto-accepted), (2) collecting the Route Recs that are on the Route=
 Group(s) if any and/or the PI if any, (3) evaluating the Route Recs based =
on their priority (and other vendor specific resolution logic, which the pr=
otocol does not attempt to specify), then sending the collected Route Recs =
out in the resolution response.  Notice that there are not two different fl=
ows.

My comment for this point is related to the fact that a route group plays t=
he two roles mentioned previously. Playing what I call the basic role (regr=
ouping route records corresponding to the same destination) and the disturb=
ing role (allowing offer for route records directly associated to PIs) is s=
imply not intuitive. And, that's why David qualified this role as a hack. I=
t's not a derision for the current model, it is simply the fact that there =
is something that is at the wrong place.
Also, I didn't get an answer concerning the possibility to associate a sing=
le TNR, TNP or RN directly to one or more route records. Would we add also =
a direct association from RN, TNR or TNP to route record?


KJC:  But from a bigger picture perspective, when the proposal was brought =
up yesterday, it was brought up under the guise that "the current data mode=
l is broken and it a hack in this area, so we need to do X, Y and Z".  This=
 is simply not accurate, as I've described above.  Secondly, the proposed a=
lternative simply does not work in terms of scalability for the User ENUM u=
se case.  The proposal would result in millions of Route Recs (since in the=
 user enum case the Route Recs contain PI specific data) having to be offer=
ed and accepted.  So even the primary target use case of the proposal just =
does not work well.  So given that the current model is not "broken" and is=
 not a "hack" and given that the new proposal does not scale for the user e=
num use case, why add in the additional complexity that results from the ne=
w proposal?

At this point, I still don't understand why the proposed model is not accur=
ate. I don't understand why millions of route records have to been offered =
and accepted? I think grouping associations solves this problem. Please, ca=
n you illustrate by a scenario or diagram (especially for the User ENUM use=
 case)?


I just want to precise that my comments are not intended to create conflict=
s in any manner especially when I see that it's late to raise such proposit=
ions and that the draft will become soon a RFC. I'm just trying to add my e=
fforts to this framework/protocol.

Thanks

Mickael

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<div class=3D"Section1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Sorry, typo in item 2, it should read
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">2) In the current model the Route Recs=
 associated to a Route Group are intended to be applicableTo/appropriateFor=
 multiple/many PIs.
 &nbsp;A Route Rec directly associated to a PI is intended to be applicable=
To/appropriateFor just that PI (e.g. contain PI specific info such as in us=
er ENUM). &nbsp;Given that, why would we also want the Route Recs that are =
directly associated to a PI to be part of
 a named group, so that they could be easily associated to multiple/many PI=
s.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><font=
 size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center" tabindex=3D"-1">
</span></font></div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Tahoma"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold">From:</span></font></b><font size=3D"2=
" face=3D"Tahoma"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma"> drin=
ks-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:drinks-bounces@ietf.org]
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">On Behalf Of </span></b>Cartwright, Ken=
<br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, March 06, 201=
2 5:55 PM<br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> Mickael Marrache; <st1:P=
ersonName w:st=3D"on">
drinks@ietf.org</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: [drinks] SPPF c=
hanges proposal</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:
12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Hi Mickael,<o:p></o:p></span></font></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">1) Maybe if you could provide/describe=
 a new use case that the current model does not support then the need for t=
he proposal would be
 clearer.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">2) In the current model the Route Recs=
 associated to a Route Group are intended to be applicableTo/appropriateFor=
 multiple/many PIs.
 &nbsp;A Route Rec directly associated to a PI is intended to be applicable=
To/appropriateFor just that PI (e.g. contain PI specific info such as in us=
er ENUM). &nbsp;Given that, why would we also want the PIs that are directl=
y associated to a PI to be part of a named
 group, so that they could be easily associated to multiple/many PIs.<o:p><=
/o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy">3) And in regards to your statement&#8230; &#8220;</span></font=
><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:1=
0.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black">Also,
 I didn't get an answer concerning the possibility to associate a single TN=
R, TNP or RN directly to one or more route records. Would we add also a dir=
ect association from RN, TNR or TNP to route record?&#8221;&nbsp;
</span></font><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D=
"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy">Sorry, but I guess I missed that question in your original emai=
l. &nbsp;I&#8217;m not fully clear on the question, but I think it may be a=
nswered by understanding
 point 2 above.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Ken<i><span style=3D"font-style:italic=
">
</span></i><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
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 size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center" tabindex=3D"-1">
</span></font></div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Tahoma"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold">From:</span></font></b><font size=3D"2=
" face=3D"Tahoma"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma"> Mick=
ael Marrache [mailto:mickaelmarrache@gmail.com]
<br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Saturday, March 03, 20=
12 12:55 PM<br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> Cartwright, Ken; <st1:Pe=
rsonName w:st=3D"on">
drinks@ietf.org</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: [drinks] SPPF c=
hanges proposal</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:
12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><font size=3D"3" colo=
r=3D"black" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Aria=
l;color:black">Hi Ken,</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy">&#8220;</span></font>To meet the requirements deduced from the =
user ENUM use case,
 a direct association between the TN and route record types has been added&=
#8221;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy">KJC:&nbsp; Nothing has been &#8220;added&#8221;, the data model=
 has been this way for at least
 two years now.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><font size=3D"3" face=
=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><br>
You're right. Sorry for saying something I didn't check.&nbsp; <o:p></o:p><=
/span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy">&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;
margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy">&#8220;</span></font>So, one solution is to include these route=
 records in a dummy
 (since the included route records have not common routes) destination grou=
p DG-1. Then, we also create a dummy (since it doesn't contain any route) r=
oute group RG-1 and associate it to DG-1. Then, the route group may be offe=
red to a peering organization.&#8221;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"font-size=
:12.0pt">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy">KJC: The Destination Group and the Route Group you refer to as =
&#8220;Dummys&#8221;, are
 not &#8220;Dummys&#8221; they are an integral and expected part of the dat=
a structure.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"font-size=
:12.0pt">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"font-size=
:12.0pt">&#8220;First, since the destination group DG-1 and the route group=
 RG-1 are not used for their primary reason (a destination
 group allows grouping of public identifiers that share a common set of rou=
tes, and a route group is generally used to group route records that may co=
rrespond to a same &quot;destination&quot; - that's why we share them as a =
block), it reveals a potential design issue.&#8221;<o:p></o:p></span></font=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy">&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy">KJC:&nbsp; The Route Group you refer to as &#8220;not contain a=
ny route rec&#8221; is not accurate.&nbsp;
 It may or may not contain Route Recs.&nbsp; It is up to the registrant and=
 registrar to decide whether they wish to have route recs on a given route =
group, regardless of whether they have also decided to have Route Recs dire=
ctly associated with a PI (i.e. in the
 user ENUM case, where some PIs will/may have Route Recs that contain info =
that is specific to that PI).&nbsp; The model allows both, depending on the=
 Registrar&#8217;s Registrant&#8217;s need.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy">&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black">So, the route group may or may not contain route records.</spa=
n></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black">If it doesn't contain route records, I understand that it is o=
nly used to
 share the route records directly associated to the PIs. In this case, do y=
ou agree that it is not a
<i><span style=3D"font-style:italic">real </span></i>route group (i.e. a co=
nstruct that allows regrouping route records that correspond to a same dest=
ination)?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black">If it does contain route records, I understand that it plays t=
wo roles:
 it allows sharing the route records directly associated to the PIs as prev=
iously, and it allows sharing the route records that correspond to a same d=
estination.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"font-size=
:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"font-size=
:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;
margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy">KJC:&nbsp; The Destination Group and Route Groups involved here=
 _<i><span style=3D"font-style:italic">do</span></i>_
 in fact serve the purpose that they are designed to serve. &nbsp;They allo=
w the peering visibility of large numbers of public identities and their ro=
uting information to be controlled at an aggregate with just a few number o=
f API calls, as apposed to millions (one
 per PI or Route Rec). &nbsp;They allow the Destination Group to be associa=
ted or disassociated to from one or more Route Group objects in a single co=
mmand as the need arises, they allow the Route Group to be offered/accepted=
 in a single command, rather than one
 per route rec (which there would be millions of in the User ENUM case) or =
one per PI. &nbsp;They Route Group allows further control of the visibility=
 based on source-based routing, and other routing selection algorithms that=
, at this time, would be vendor specific
 since they are not in the protocol (e.g. time-of-day, cost, etc).</span></=
font><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"font-size=
:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black">In the proposed model, this property is still true. It also al=
lows the peering
 visibility of a large number of public identifiers and their routing infor=
mation also using an aggregate (you will note that we didn't remove the des=
tination and route groups constructs) with a few number of API calls. And I=
 disagree when you say that the
 proposed model requires offering to be done per route in the user ENUM cas=
e. When a huge number of PIs are associated to route records directly (thou=
gh a RoutingAssoc element), you are not forced to offer each one of these a=
ssociations, you simply need to
 regroup them in an association group and to share this association group, =
I don't see here any scalability issue.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black">Also, source based routing is also present in the proposed dat=
a model, in
 the ShareableElement type.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"font-size=
:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"font-size=
:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;
margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy">&#8220;</span></font>In this case, when an originating SSP want=
s to know the routes
 records associated to TN 1 for example&#8230;.&#8221;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy">&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy">KJC:&nbsp; The second paragraph in your note attempts to descri=
be part of the resolution
 process, I&#8217;ve included the first part of your statement above.&nbsp;=
 It basically says that the resolution process is somehow different if Rout=
e Recs are directly associated with the PI than if they are associated with=
 the Route Group. &nbsp;This is not accurate.&nbsp; First
 off, SPPP does not attempt to define how resolution servers must evaluate =
the data that SPP provisions. &nbsp;Doing so would be folly, since TN resol=
ution logic is much too involved, and often situation specific, including l=
ooking at data sources that do not even
 come in over SPPP (e.g. portability data, etc, etc).&nbsp; However, the ba=
sic logic involves (1) using the lookup key (e.g. a TN) and the source of t=
he query to get the Destination Groups that contain that lookup key that ar=
e visible to that source based on the
 Route Groups that that source has accepted (or auto-accepted), (2) collect=
ing the Route Recs that are on the Route Group(s) if any and/or the PI if a=
ny, (3) evaluating the Route Recs based on their priority (and other vendor=
 specific resolution logic, which
 the protocol does not attempt to specify), then sending the collected Rout=
e Recs out in the resolution response.&nbsp; Notice that there are not two =
different flows.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy">&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black">My comment for this point is related to the fact that a route =
group plays
 the two roles mentioned previously. Playing what I call the basic role (re=
grouping route records corresponding to the same destination) and the distu=
rbing role (allowing offer for route records directly associated to PIs) is=
 simply not intuitive. And, that's
 why David qualified this role as a hack. It's not a derision for the curre=
nt model, it is simply the fact that there is something that is at the wron=
g place.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black">Also, I didn't get an answer concerning the possibility to ass=
ociate a single
 TNR, TNP or RN directly to one or more route records. Would we add also a =
direct association from RN, TNR or TNP to route record?</span></font><o:p><=
/o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy">&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"font-size=
:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;
margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy">KJC:&nbsp; But from a bigger picture perspective, when the prop=
osal was brought
 up yesterday, it was brought up under the guise that &#8220;the current da=
ta model is broken and it a hack in this area, so we need to do X, Y and Z&=
#8221;. &nbsp;This is simply not accurate, as I&#8217;ve described above.&n=
bsp; Secondly, the proposed alternative simply does not work
 in terms of scalability for the User ENUM use case. &nbsp;The proposal wou=
ld result in millions of Route Recs (since in the user enum case the Route =
Recs contain PI specific data) having to be offered and accepted.&nbsp; So =
even the primary target use case of the proposal
 just does not work well.&nbsp; So given that the current model is not &#82=
20;broken&#8221; and is not a &#8220;hack&#8221; and given that the new pro=
posal does not scale for the user enum use case, why add in the additional =
complexity that results from the new proposal?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy">&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Arial"><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black">At this point, I still don't understa=
nd why the proposed model is not accurate. I don't understand why millions =
of route records have
 to been offered and accepted? I think grouping associations solves this pr=
oblem. Please, can you illustrate by a scenario or diagram (especially for =
the User ENUM use case)?</span></font><br>
<br>
<br>
I just want to precise that my comments are not intended to create conflict=
s in any manner especially when I see that it's late to raise such proposit=
ions and that the draft will become soon a RFC. I'm just trying to add my e=
fforts to this framework/protocol.<br>
<br>
Thanks<br>
<br>
Mickael<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:
12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><font=
 size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</span></font></div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><font size=3D"1" colo=
r=3D"gray" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Arial;=
color:gray">This e-mail message is for the sole use of the intended recipie=
nt(s)and may<br>
contain confidential and privileged information of Transaction Network Serv=
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Any unauthorised review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If =
you<br>
are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail a=
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Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 15:50:19 +0200
Message-ID: <CA+=4G23f=gcqmyp-Ox+ovghOjKhafP6cOGVy40T1FRYQ5rBvXA@mail.gmail.com>
From: Mickael Marrache <mickaelmarrache@gmail.com>
To: "Cartwright, Ken" <kcartwright@tnsi.com>, drinks@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [drinks] SPPF changes proposal
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Hi Ken,

1) Maybe if you could provide/describe a new use case that the current
> model does not support then the need for the proposal would be clearer.
>

As I understood from a previous response (not this one), the User ENUM
scenario consists of a set of subscribers of a certain SSP. Each of the
subscriber provides a certain route specific to it that is then associated
to its telephone number. So, the registrant SSP adds the concerned PIs, the
route records and the associations between them. Then, to share the route
records associated to these PIs, the registrant SSP groups the PIs in a DG,
creates a RG, associates the DG to the RG and shares the RG to a peering
organization. Optionally, the RG may have route records associated to it.
What is the meaning of these routes? If the routes corresponding to each PI
are shared, the peering organization can establish sessions directly to
these PIs? Do you mean these are general routes that may be used to
establish sessions to these PIs through the registrant SSP network?

Is there any case where a SSP would be interested to share only one PI to
another SSP ?
If yes, the current model requires creating a DG and a RG to enable peering
of the single PI. I'm just thinking about the way of finding a generic
model that is not built for specific needs, and I think the proposed model
is not so different that the current one, the main change concerns
introduction of an abstraction layer to deal with single elements and
groups of elements as a single unit.


2) In the current model the Route Recs associated to a Route Group are
> intended to be applicableTo/appropriateFor multiple/many PIs.  A Route Re=
c
> directly associated to a PI is intended to be applicableTo/appropriateFor
> just that PI (e.g. contain PI specific info such as in user ENUM).  Given
> that, why would we also want the Route Recs that are directly associated =
to
> a PI to be part of a named group, so that they could be easily associated
> to multiple/many PIs.
>

The proposed model doesn't force you to group route records directly
associated to a PI. You may associate the PI with each route record
separately. Then, if a registrant SSP wants to share these route records to
a peering organization, it may group them in an association group and share
this group.


3) And in regards to your statement=85 =93Also, I didn't get an answer
> concerning the possibility to associate a single TNR, TNP or RN directly =
to
> one or more route records. Would we add also a direct association from RN=
,
> TNR or TNP to route record?=94  Sorry, but I guess I missed that question
> in your original email.  I=92m not fully clear on the question, but I thi=
nk
> it may be answered by understanding point 2 above.
>

This is the same scenario as for the TN but this is not supported by the
current draft since the list of directly associated route records is
defined in the TN type and not in the PubIdType. What I mean is that we may
have a single RN, TNR or TNP associated to one or more PIs directly. And in
this case, why also to use grouping elements when they are not necessary?

Mickael




On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 1:26 AM, Cartwright, Ken <kcartwright@tnsi.com>wrote=
:

> **
>
> Sorry, typo in item 2, it should read ****
>
> 2) In the current model the Route Recs associated to a Route Group are
> intended to be applicableTo/appropriateFor multiple/many PIs.  A Route Re=
c
> directly associated to a PI is intended to be applicableTo/appropriateFor
> just that PI (e.g. contain PI specific info such as in user ENUM).  Given
> that, why would we also want the Route Recs that are directly associated =
to
> a PI to be part of a named group, so that they could be easily associated
> to multiple/many PIs.****
>
> ** **
>  ------------------------------
>
> *From:* drinks-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:drinks-bounces@ietf.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Cartwright, Ken
> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 06, 2012 5:55 PM
> *To:* Mickael Marrache; ** drinks@ietf.org
> **
> *Subject:* Re: [drinks] SPPF changes proposal
> ****
>
>  ** **
>
> Hi Mickael,****
>
> ** **
>
> 1) Maybe if you could provide/describe a new use case that the current
> model does not support then the need for the proposal would be clearer.**=
*
> *
>
> ** **
>
> 2) In the current model the Route Recs associated to a Route Group are
> intended to be applicableTo/appropriateFor multiple/many PIs.  A Route Re=
c
> directly associated to a PI is intended to be applicableTo/appropriateFor
> just that PI (e.g. contain PI specific info such as in user ENUM).  Given
> that, why would we also want the PIs that are directly associated to a PI
> to be part of a named group, so that they could be easily associated to
> multiple/many PIs.****
>
> ** **
>
> 3) And in regards to your statement=85 =93Also, I didn't get an answer
> concerning the possibility to associate a single TNR, TNP or RN directly =
to
> one or more route records. Would we add also a direct association from RN=
,
> TNR or TNP to route record?=94  Sorry, but I guess I missed that question
> in your original email.  I=92m not fully clear on the question, but I thi=
nk
> it may be answered by understanding point 2 above.****
>
> Ken* *****
>
> ** **
>  ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Mickael Marrache [mailto:mickaelmarrache@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Saturday, March 03, 2012 12:55 PM
> *To:* Cartwright, Ken; ** drinks@ietf.org**
> *Subject:* Re: [drinks] SPPF changes proposal****
>
> ** **
>
> Hi Ken,****
>
> =93To meet the requirements deduced from the user ENUM use case, a direct
> association between the TN and route record types has been added=94****
>
> KJC:  Nothing has been =93added=94, the data model has been this way for =
at
> least two years now.****
>
>
> You're right. Sorry for saying something I didn't check.  ****
>
>  ****
>
> =93So, one solution is to include these route records in a dummy (since t=
he
> included route records have not common routes) destination group DG-1.
> Then, we also create a dummy (since it doesn't contain any route) route
> group RG-1 and associate it to DG-1. Then, the route group may be offered
> to a peering organization.=94****
>
>  ****
>
> KJC: The Destination Group and the Route Group you refer to as =93Dummys=
=94,
> are not =93Dummys=94 they are an integral and expected part of the data
> structure.****
>
>  ****
>
> =93First, since the destination group DG-1 and the route group RG-1 are n=
ot
> used for their primary reason (a destination group allows grouping of
> public identifiers that share a common set of routes, and a route group i=
s
> generally used to group route records that may correspond to a same
> "destination" - that's why we share them as a block), it reveals a
> potential design issue.=94****
>
>  ****
>
> KJC:  The Route Group you refer to as =93not contain any route rec=94 is =
not
> accurate.  It may or may not contain Route Recs.  It is up to the
> registrant and registrar to decide whether they wish to have route recs o=
n
> a given route group, regardless of whether they have also decided to have
> Route Recs directly associated with a PI (i.e. in the user ENUM case, whe=
re
> some PIs will/may have Route Recs that contain info that is specific to
> that PI).  The model allows both, depending on the Registrar=92s Registra=
nt=92s
> need.****
>
>  ****
>
> So, the route group may or may not contain route records.****
>
> If it doesn't contain route records, I understand that it is only used to
> share the route records directly associated to the PIs. In this case, do
> you agree that it is not a *real *route group (i.e. a construct that
> allows regrouping route records that correspond to a same destination)?**=
*
> *
>
> If it does contain route records, I understand that it plays two roles: i=
t
> allows sharing the route records directly associated to the PIs as
> previously, and it allows sharing the route records that correspond to a
> same destination.****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> KJC:  The Destination Group and Route Groups involved here _*do*_ in fact
> serve the purpose that they are designed to serve.  They allow the peerin=
g
> visibility of large numbers of public identities and their routing
> information to be controlled at an aggregate with just a few number of AP=
I
> calls, as apposed to millions (one per PI or Route Rec).  They allow the
> Destination Group to be associated or disassociated to from one or more
> Route Group objects in a single command as the need arises, they allow th=
e
> Route Group to be offered/accepted in a single command, rather than one p=
er
> route rec (which there would be millions of in the User ENUM case) or one
> per PI.  They Route Group allows further control of the visibility based =
on
> source-based routing, and other routing selection algorithms that, at thi=
s
> time, would be vendor specific since they are not in the protocol (e.g.
> time-of-day, cost, etc).****
>
> ** **
>
> In the proposed model, this property is still true. It also allows the
> peering visibility of a large number of public identifiers and their
> routing information also using an aggregate (you will note that we didn't
> remove the destination and route groups constructs) with a few number of
> API calls. And I disagree when you say that the proposed model requires
> offering to be done per route in the user ENUM case. When a huge number o=
f
> PIs are associated to route records directly (though a RoutingAssoc
> element), you are not forced to offer each one of these associations, you
> simply need to regroup them in an association group and to share this
> association group, I don't see here any scalability issue.****
>
> Also, source based routing is also present in the proposed data model, in
> the ShareableElement type.****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> =93In this case, when an originating SSP wants to know the routes records
> associated to TN 1 for example=85.=94****
>
>  ****
>
> KJC:  The second paragraph in your note attempts to describe part of the
> resolution process, I=92ve included the first part of your statement abov=
e.
> It basically says that the resolution process is somehow different if Rou=
te
> Recs are directly associated with the PI than if they are associated with
> the Route Group.  This is not accurate.  First off, SPPP does not attempt
> to define how resolution servers must evaluate the data that SPP
> provisions.  Doing so would be folly, since TN resolution logic is much t=
oo
> involved, and often situation specific, including looking at data sources
> that do not even come in over SPPP (e.g. portability data, etc, etc).
> However, the basic logic involves (1) using the lookup key (e.g. a TN) an=
d
> the source of the query to get the Destination Groups that contain that
> lookup key that are visible to that source based on the Route Groups that
> that source has accepted (or auto-accepted), (2) collecting the Route Rec=
s
> that are on the Route Group(s) if any and/or the PI if any, (3) evaluatin=
g
> the Route Recs based on their priority (and other vendor specific
> resolution logic, which the protocol does not attempt to specify), then
> sending the collected Route Recs out in the resolution response.  Notice
> that there are not two different flows.****
>
>  ****
>
> My comment for this point is related to the fact that a route group plays
> the two roles mentioned previously. Playing what I call the basic role
> (regrouping route records corresponding to the same destination) and the
> disturbing role (allowing offer for route records directly associated to
> PIs) is simply not intuitive. And, that's why David qualified this role a=
s
> a hack. It's not a derision for the current model, it is simply the fact
> that there is something that is at the wrong place.****
>
> Also, I didn't get an answer concerning the possibility to associate a
> single TNR, TNP or RN directly to one or more route records. Would we add
> also a direct association from RN, TNR or TNP to route record?****
>
>  ****
>
> ** **
>
> KJC:  But from a bigger picture perspective, when the proposal was brough=
t
> up yesterday, it was brought up under the guise that =93the current data
> model is broken and it a hack in this area, so we need to do X, Y and Z=
=94.
>  This is simply not accurate, as I=92ve described above.  Secondly, the
> proposed alternative simply does not work in terms of scalability for the
> User ENUM use case.  The proposal would result in millions of Route Recs
> (since in the user enum case the Route Recs contain PI specific data)
> having to be offered and accepted.  So even the primary target use case o=
f
> the proposal just does not work well.  So given that the current model is
> not =93broken=94 and is not a =93hack=94 and given that the new proposal =
does not
> scale for the user enum use case, why add in the additional complexity th=
at
> results from the new proposal?****
>
>  ****
>
> At this point, I still don't understand why the proposed model is not
> accurate. I don't understand why millions of route records have to been
> offered and accepted? I think grouping associations solves this problem.
> Please, can you illustrate by a scenario or diagram (especially for the
> User ENUM use case)?
>
>
> I just want to precise that my comments are not intended to create
> conflicts in any manner especially when I see that it's late to raise suc=
h
> propositions and that the draft will become soon a RFC. I'm just trying t=
o
> add my efforts to this framework/protocol.
>
> Thanks
>
> Mickael****
>
> ** **
>  ------------------------------
>
> This e-mail message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s)and m=
ay
> contain confidential and privileged information of Transaction Network
> Services.
> Any unauthorised review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. I=
f
> you
> are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail
> and destroy all copies of the original message.****
>
> ------------------------------
> This e-mail message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s)and m=
ay
> contain confidential and privileged information of Transaction Network
> Services.
> Any unauthorised review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. I=
f
> you
> are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail
> and destroy all copies of the original message.
>
>

--f46d043c80708d18ee04babb8e22
Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Ken,<br><br><blockquote style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8=
ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex" class=3D"gmail_=
quote"><font color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;=
font-family:Arial;color:navy">1)
 Maybe if you could provide/describe a new use case that the current=20
model does not support then the need for the proposal would be
 clearer.</span></font><br></blockquote><br>As I understood from a previous=
 response (not this one), the User ENUM scenario consists of a set of subsc=
ribers of a certain SSP. Each of the subscriber provides a certain route sp=
ecific to it that is then associated to its telephone number. So, the regis=
trant SSP adds the concerned PIs, the route records and the associations be=
tween them. Then, to share the route records associated to these PIs, the r=
egistrant SSP groups the PIs in a DG, creates a RG, associates the DG to th=
e RG and shares the RG to a peering organization. Optionally, the RG may ha=
ve route records associated to it. What is the meaning of these routes? If =
the routes corresponding to each PI are shared, the peering organization ca=
n establish sessions directly to these PIs? Do you mean these are general r=
outes that may be used to establish sessions to these PIs through the regis=
trant SSP network?<br>
<br>Is there any case where a SSP would be interested to share only one PI =
to another SSP ?<br>If yes, the current model requires creating a DG and a =
RG to enable peering of the single PI. I&#39;m just thinking about the way =
of finding a generic model that is not built for specific needs, and I thin=
k the proposed model is not so different that the current one, the main cha=
nge concerns introduction of an abstraction layer to deal with single eleme=
nts and groups of elements as a single unit. <br>
<br><br><blockquote style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid=
 rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote"><font color=3D"na=
vy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:=
navy">2)
 In the current model the Route Recs associated to a Route Group are=20
intended to be applicableTo/appropriateFor multiple/many PIs.
 =A0A Route Rec directly associated to a PI is intended to be=20
applicableTo/appropriateFor just that PI (e.g. contain PI specific info=20
such as in user ENUM). =A0Given that, why would we also want the Route=20
Recs that are directly associated to a PI to be part of
 a named group, so that they could be easily associated to multiple/many
 PIs.</span></font><br></blockquote><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><br>The prop=
osed model doesn&#39;t force you to group route records directly associated=
 to a PI. You may associate the PI with each route record separately. Then,=
 if a registrant SSP wants to share these route records to a peering organi=
zation, it may group them in an association group and share this group.<br>
<br><br><blockquote style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid=
 rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote"><p class=3D"MsoNo=
rmal"><font color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;f=
ont-family:Arial;color:navy">3) And in regards to your statement=85 =93</sp=
an></font><font color=3D"black" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:10.=
0pt;font-family:Arial">Also,

 I didn&#39;t get an answer concerning the possibility to associate a singl=
e
 TNR, TNP or RN directly to one or more route records. Would we add also
 a direct association from RN, TNR or TNP to route record?=94=A0
</span></font><font color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Sorry,
 but I guess I missed that question in your original email. =A0I=92m not=20
fully clear on the question, but I think it may be answered by=20
understanding
 point 2 above.</span></font></p></blockquote>
<font color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:Arial;color:navy"></span></font><br>This is the same scenario as for t=
he TN but this is not supported by the current draft since the list of dire=
ctly associated route records is defined in the TN type and not in the PubI=
dType. What I mean is that we may have a single RN, TNR or TNP associated t=
o one or more PIs directly. And in this case, why also to use grouping elem=
ents when they are not necessary?<br>
<br>Mickael<br><br><br><br><br>On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 1:26 AM, Cartwright, =
Ken <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kcartwright@tnsi.com">kcartwrig=
ht@tnsi.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">




<u></u>

<div link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" lang=3D"EN-US">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Sorry, typo in item 2, it sho=
uld read
<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">2) In the current model the R=
oute Recs associated to a Route Group are intended to be applicableTo/appro=
priateFor multiple/many PIs.
 =A0A Route Rec directly associated to a PI is intended to be applicableTo/=
appropriateFor just that PI (e.g. contain PI specific info such as in user =
ENUM). =A0Given that, why would we also want the Route Recs that are direct=
ly associated to a PI to be part of
 a named group, so that they could be easily associated to multiple/many PI=
s.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span></fon=
t></p>
<div>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align:center" align=3D"center"><font=
 face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</span></font></div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><font face=3D"Tahoma"><span style=3D"font-size:10=
.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold">From:</span></font></b><font face=
=3D"Tahoma"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma"> <a href=3D=
"mailto:drinks-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">drinks-bounces@ietf.org<=
/a> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:drinks-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">dr=
inks-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">On Behalf Of </span></b>Cartwright, Ken=
<br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, March 06, 201=
2 5:55 PM<br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> Mickael Marrache; <u></u=
>
<a href=3D"mailto:drinks@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">drinks@ietf.org</a></s=
pan></font></p><div><div class=3D"h5"><font face=3D"Tahoma"><u></u><br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: [drinks] SPPF c=
hanges proposal</font></div></div><u></u><u></u><p></p>
</div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Hi Mickael,<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span></fon=
t></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">1) Maybe if you could provide=
/describe a new use case that the current model does not support then the n=
eed for the proposal would be
 clearer.<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span></fon=
t></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">2) In the current model the R=
oute Recs associated to a Route Group are intended to be applicableTo/appro=
priateFor multiple/many PIs.
 =A0A Route Rec directly associated to a PI is intended to be applicableTo/=
appropriateFor just that PI (e.g. contain PI specific info such as in user =
ENUM). =A0Given that, why would we also want the PIs that are directly asso=
ciated to a PI to be part of a named
 group, so that they could be easily associated to multiple/many PIs.<u></u=
><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span></fon=
t></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">3) And in regards to your sta=
tement=85 =93</span></font><font color=3D"black" face=3D"Arial"><span style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial">Also,
 I didn&#39;t get an answer concerning the possibility to associate a singl=
e TNR, TNP or RN directly to one or more route records. Would we add also a=
 direct association from RN, TNR or TNP to route record?=94=A0
</span></font><font color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:=
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Sorry, but I guess I missed that quest=
ion in your original email. =A0I=92m not fully clear on the question, but I=
 think it may be answered by understanding
 point 2 above.</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Ken<i><span style=3D"font-sty=
le:italic">
</span></i><u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span></fon=
t></p>
<div>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align:center" align=3D"center"><font=
 face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</span></font></div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><font face=3D"Tahoma"><span style=3D"font-size:10=
.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold">From:</span></font></b><font face=
=3D"Tahoma"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma"> Mickael Ma=
rrache [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mickaelmarrache@gmail.com" target=3D"_blan=
k">mickaelmarrache@gmail.com</a>]
<br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Saturday, March 03, 20=
12 12:55 PM<br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> Cartwright, Ken; <u></u>
<a href=3D"mailto:drinks@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">drinks@ietf.org</a><u>=
</u><br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: [drinks] SPPF c=
hanges proposal</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><font color=3D"black"=
 face=3D"Arial" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Aria=
l">Hi Ken,</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">=93</span></font>To meet the =
requirements deduced from the user ENUM use case,
 a direct association between the TN and route record types has been added=
=94<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">KJC:=A0 Nothing has been =93a=
dded=94, the data model has been this way for at least
 two years now.</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><font face=3D"Times N=
ew Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><br>
You&#39;re right. Sorry for saying something I didn&#39;t check.=A0 <u></u>=
<u></u></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">=A0</span></font><u></u><u></=
u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">=93</span></font>So, one solu=
tion is to include these route records in a dummy
 (since the included route records have not common routes) destination grou=
p DG-1. Then, we also create a dummy (since it doesn&#39;t contain any rout=
e) route group RG-1 and associate it to DG-1. Then, the route group may be =
offered to a peering organization.=94<u></u><u></u></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:12.0pt">=A0<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">KJC: The Destination Group an=
d the Route Group you refer to as =93Dummys=94, are
 not =93Dummys=94 they are an integral and expected part of the data struct=
ure.</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:12.0pt">=A0<u></u><u></u></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:12.0pt">=93First, since the destination group DG-1 and the r=
oute group RG-1 are not used for their primary reason (a destination
 group allows grouping of public identifiers that share a common set of rou=
tes, and a route group is generally used to group route records that may co=
rrespond to a same &quot;destination&quot; - that&#39;s why we share them a=
s a block), it reveals a potential design issue.=94<u></u><u></u></span></f=
ont></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">=A0</span></font><u></u><u></=
u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">KJC:=A0 The Route Group you r=
efer to as =93not contain any route rec=94 is not accurate.=A0
 It may or may not contain Route Recs.=A0 It is up to the registrant and re=
gistrar to decide whether they wish to have route recs on a given route gro=
up, regardless of whether they have also decided to have Route Recs directl=
y associated with a PI (i.e. in the
 user ENUM case, where some PIs will/may have Route Recs that contain info =
that is specific to that PI).=A0 The model allows both, depending on the Re=
gistrar=92s Registrant=92s need.</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">=A0</span></font><u></u><u></=
u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"black" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"=
font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial">So, the route group may or may not cont=
ain route records.</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"black" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"=
font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial">If it doesn&#39;t contain route records=
, I understand that it is only used to
 share the route records directly associated to the PIs. In this case, do y=
ou agree that it is not a
<i><span style=3D"font-style:italic">real </span></i>route group (i.e. a co=
nstruct that allows regrouping route records that correspond to a same dest=
ination)?</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"black" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"=
font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial">If it does contain route records, I und=
erstand that it plays two roles:
 it allows sharing the route records directly associated to the PIs as prev=
iously, and it allows sharing the route records that correspond to a same d=
estination.</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span></font></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">KJC:=A0 The Destination Group=
 and Route Groups involved here _<i><span style=3D"font-style:italic">do</s=
pan></i>_
 in fact serve the purpose that they are designed to serve. =A0They allow t=
he peering visibility of large numbers of public identities and their routi=
ng information to be controlled at an aggregate with just a few number of A=
PI calls, as apposed to millions (one
 per PI or Route Rec). =A0They allow the Destination Group to be associated=
 or disassociated to from one or more Route Group objects in a single comma=
nd as the need arises, they allow the Route Group to be offered/accepted in=
 a single command, rather than one
 per route rec (which there would be millions of in the User ENUM case) or =
one per PI. =A0They Route Group allows further control of the visibility ba=
sed on source-based routing, and other routing selection algorithms that, a=
t this time, would be vendor specific
 since they are not in the protocol (e.g. time-of-day, cost, etc).</span></=
font><u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"black" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"=
font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial">In the proposed model, this property is=
 still true. It also allows the peering
 visibility of a large number of public identifiers and their routing infor=
mation also using an aggregate (you will note that we didn&#39;t remove the=
 destination and route groups constructs) with a few number of API calls. A=
nd I disagree when you say that the
 proposed model requires offering to be done per route in the user ENUM cas=
e. When a huge number of PIs are associated to route records directly (thou=
gh a RoutingAssoc element), you are not forced to offer each one of these a=
ssociations, you simply need to
 regroup them in an association group and to share this association group, =
I don&#39;t see here any scalability issue.</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"black" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"=
font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial">Also, source based routing is also pres=
ent in the proposed data model, in
 the ShareableElement type.</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span></font></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">=93</span></font>In this case=
, when an originating SSP wants to know the routes
 records associated to TN 1 for example=85.=94<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">=A0</span></font><u></u><u></=
u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">KJC:=A0 The second paragraph =
in your note attempts to describe part of the resolution
 process, I=92ve included the first part of your statement above.=A0 It bas=
ically says that the resolution process is somehow different if Route Recs =
are directly associated with the PI than if they are associated with the Ro=
ute Group. =A0This is not accurate.=A0 First
 off, SPPP does not attempt to define how resolution servers must evaluate =
the data that SPP provisions. =A0Doing so would be folly, since TN resoluti=
on logic is much too involved, and often situation specific, including look=
ing at data sources that do not even
 come in over SPPP (e.g. portability data, etc, etc).=A0 However, the basic=
 logic involves (1) using the lookup key (e.g. a TN) and the source of the =
query to get the Destination Groups that contain that lookup key that are v=
isible to that source based on the
 Route Groups that that source has accepted (or auto-accepted), (2) collect=
ing the Route Recs that are on the Route Group(s) if any and/or the PI if a=
ny, (3) evaluating the Route Recs based on their priority (and other vendor=
 specific resolution logic, which
 the protocol does not attempt to specify), then sending the collected Rout=
e Recs out in the resolution response.=A0 Notice that there are not two dif=
ferent flows.</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">=A0</span></font><u></u><u></=
u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"black" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"=
font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial">My comment for this point is related to=
 the fact that a route group plays
 the two roles mentioned previously. Playing what I call the basic role (re=
grouping route records corresponding to the same destination) and the distu=
rbing role (allowing offer for route records directly associated to PIs) is=
 simply not intuitive. And, that&#39;s
 why David qualified this role as a hack. It&#39;s not a derision for the c=
urrent model, it is simply the fact that there is something that is at the =
wrong place.</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"black" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"=
font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial">Also, I didn&#39;t get an answer concer=
ning the possibility to associate a single
 TNR, TNP or RN directly to one or more route records. Would we add also a =
direct association from RN, TNR or TNP to route record?</span></font><u></u=
><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">=A0</span></font><u></u><u></=
u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span></font></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">KJC:=A0 But from a bigger pic=
ture perspective, when the proposal was brought
 up yesterday, it was brought up under the guise that =93the current data m=
odel is broken and it a hack in this area, so we need to do X, Y and Z=94. =
=A0This is simply not accurate, as I=92ve described above.=A0 Secondly, the=
 proposed alternative simply does not work
 in terms of scalability for the User ENUM use case. =A0The proposal would =
result in millions of Route Recs (since in the user enum case the Route Rec=
s contain PI specific data) having to be offered and accepted.=A0 So even t=
he primary target use case of the proposal
 just does not work well.=A0 So given that the current model is not =93brok=
en=94 and is not a =93hack=94 and given that the new proposal does not scal=
e for the user enum use case, why add in the additional complexity that res=
ults from the new proposal?</span></font><u></u><u></u></p>

</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">=A0</span></font><u></u><u></=
u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font color=3D"black" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"=
font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial">At this point, I still don&#39;t unders=
tand why the proposed model is not accurate. I don&#39;t understand why mil=
lions of route records have
 to been offered and accepted? I think grouping associations solves this pr=
oblem. Please, can you illustrate by a scenario or diagram (especially for =
the User ENUM use case)?</span></font><br>
<br>
<br>
I just want to precise that my comments are not intended to create conflict=
s in any manner especially when I see that it&#39;s late to raise such prop=
ositions and that the draft will become soon a RFC. I&#39;m just trying to =
add my efforts to this framework/protocol.<br>

<br>
Thanks<br>
<br>
Mickael<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span></font></p>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align:center" align=3D"center"><font=
 face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</span></font></div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><font color=3D"gray" =
face=3D"Arial" size=3D"1"><span style=3D"font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Arial;=
color:gray">This e-mail message is for the sole use of the intended recipie=
nt(s)and may<br>

contain confidential and privileged information of Transaction Network Serv=
ices.<br>
Any unauthorised review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If =
you<br>
are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail a=
nd destroy all copies of the original message.</span></font><u></u><u></u><=
/p>
</div></div></div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<br>
<hr>
<font color=3D"Gray" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"1">This e-mail message is for t=
he sole use of the intended recipient(s)and may<br>
contain confidential and privileged information of Transaction Network Serv=
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Any unauthorised review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If =
you<br>
are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail a=
nd destroy all copies of the original message.<br>
<br>
</font>
</div></div></div>

</blockquote></div><br></div>

--f46d043c80708d18ee04babb8e22--

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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies. This draft is a work item of the Data for Reachability of Inter/tra-Ne=
tworK SIP Working Group of the IETF.

	Title           : Session Peering Provisioning Framework (SPPF)
	Author(s)       : Kenneth Cartwright
                          Syed Wasim Ali
                          Alexander Mayrhofer
                          Vikas Bhatia
	Filename        : draft-ietf-drinks-spp-framework-01.txt
	Pages           : 59
	Date            : 2012-03-12

   This document specifies the data model and the overall structure for
   a framework to provision session establishment data into Session Data
   Registries and SIP Service Provider data stores.  The framework is
   called the Session Peering Provisioning Framework (SPPF).  The
   provisioned data is typically used by network elements for session
   peering.


A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-drinks-spp-framework-01.txt

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies. This draft is a work item of the Data for Reachability of Inter/tra-Ne=
tworK SIP Working Group of the IETF.

	Title           : Session Peering Provisioning (SPP) Protocol over SOAP
	Author(s)       : Kenneth Cartwright
                          Vikas Bhatia
	Filename        : draft-ietf-drinks-spp-protocol-over-soap-01.txt
	Pages           : 91
	Date            : 2012-03-12

   The Session Peering Provisioning Framework (SPPF) is an XML framework
   that exists to enable the provisioning of session establishment data
   into Session Data Registries or SIP Service Provider data stores.
   Sending XML data structures over Simple Object Access Protocol (SOAP)
   and HTTP(s) is a widely used, de-facto standard for messaging between
   elements of provisioning systems.  Therefore the combination of SOAP
   and HTTP(s) as a transport protocol for SPPF is a natural fit.  The
   obvious benefits include leveraging existing industry expertise,
   leveraging existing standards, and a higher probability that existing
   provisioning systems can be more easily integrated with this
   protocol.  This document describes the specification for transporting
   SPPF XML structures over SOAP and HTTP(s).


A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-drinks-spp-protocol-over-soa=
p-01.txt

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
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This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
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-01.txt


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From: "Bhatia, Vikas" <vbhatia@tnsi.com>
To: "drinks@ietf.org" <drinks@ietf.org>
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 14:43:52 -0400
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Hi All,

New versions of the draft documents for the SPP Framework and SPP Protocol =
over SOAP have been submitted today.

Following are the set of changes to the documents. Action Item (AI) numbers=
 are listed (wherever applicable). These AIs were identified in the last In=
terim and subsequent weekly design meetings.

=3D=3D=3DStart - List of Changes=3D=3D=3D

SPP Framework document
----------------------
AI-1/ Addressed data model diagram inconsistencies - Diagram has been signi=
ficantly revamped per the discussions and comments
        David's comments:
        * remove extensions
        * add missing arrows (TN and RR)
        * add [0..n] on relevant arrows

        Other changes:
        * Added the new URI type of Public Identifier (refer AI-3 below)
        * Added Egress Route into the diagram

AI-3/ Non-numeric PI (URIPubIdType) and related text has been added.
AI-5/ Removed priority from RteRec base type
AI-6/ Also added "isInSvc" flag on RteRec base type
AI-7/ Move up "ttl" field to base RteRec type

SPP Protocol over SOAP document
--------------------------------
AI-13a In the response, returned an error with the maximum (Response code 2=
001).
AI-13c/ Removed definition of transaction id type as it is already listed i=
n framework document.
AI-14/ Expanded element name "dtlResult" to "detailResult" to make it consi=
stent with element "overallResult".
AI-15/ Defined a type "MsgType" to add max length to result message text.
AI-19/ Clarifed attributes of ObjKeyType on how they identify uniqueness an=
d added an example as well.

-Corrected the numbering of Result Codes (like some result codes were start=
ing with 2103 instead of 2100 etc).
-Introduced an enumeration "ResultCodeValType" to define all the result cod=
es. This ensures that server can only send one of the result codes defined =
in the schema. In previous version(s), it was loosely defined to take in an=
y integer.


General
-------
-Corrected some editorial nits (spell checks, consistent use of terminology=
 etc.).
-Moved "ObjKeyTypeEnum" from framework to protocol document (thought protoc=
ol document was an appropriate places for it since it is only used in the S=
PP Protocol over SOAP schema).
-A-11/ Review Security Cons section (All) - The change I did was to add the=
 text proposed by Scott in the SPP Protocol over SOAP document (and added S=
cott's name to acknowledgements).

=3D=3D=3DEnd - List of Changes=3D=3D=3D

Thanks,
Vikas

-----Original Message-----
From: drinks-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:drinks-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of=
 internet-drafts@ietf.org
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2012 2:19 PM
To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
Cc: drinks@ietf.org
Subject: [drinks] I-D Action: draft-ietf-drinks-spp-framework-01.txt


A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies. This draft is a work item of the Data for Reachability of Inter/tra-Ne=
tworK SIP Working Group of the IETF.

        Title           : Session Peering Provisioning Framework (SPPF)
        Author(s)       : Kenneth Cartwright
                          Syed Wasim Ali
                          Alexander Mayrhofer
                          Vikas Bhatia
        Filename        : draft-ietf-drinks-spp-framework-01.txt
        Pages           : 59
        Date            : 2012-03-12

   This document specifies the data model and the overall structure for
   a framework to provision session establishment data into Session Data
   Registries and SIP Service Provider data stores.  The framework is
   called the Session Peering Provisioning Framework (SPPF).  The
   provisioned data is typically used by network elements for session
   peering.


A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-drinks-spp-framework-01.txt

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-drinks-spp-framework-01.txt

_______________________________________________
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies. This draft is a work item of the Data for Reachability of Inter/tra-Ne=
tworK SIP Working Group of the IETF.

	Title           : Session Peering Provisioning (SPP) Protocol over SOAP
	Author(s)       : Kenneth Cartwright
                          Vikas Bhatia
	Filename        : draft-ietf-drinks-spp-protocol-over-soap-01.txt
	Pages           : 91
	Date            : 2012-03-12

   The Session Peering Provisioning Framework (SPPF) is an XML framework
   that exists to enable the provisioning of session establishment data
   into Session Data Registries or SIP Service Provider data stores.
   Sending XML data structures over Simple Object Access Protocol (SOAP)
   and HTTP(s) is a widely used, de-facto standard for messaging between
   elements of provisioning systems.  Therefore the combination of SOAP
   and HTTP(s) as a transport protocol for SPPF is a natural fit.  The
   obvious benefits include leveraging existing industry expertise,
   leveraging existing standards, and a higher probability that existing
   provisioning systems can be more easily integrated with this
   protocol.  This document describes the specification for transporting
   SPPF XML structures over SOAP and HTTP(s).


A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-drinks-spp-protocol-over-soa=
p-01.txt

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

This Internet-Draft can be retrieved at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-drinks-spp-protocol-over-soap=
-01.txt

_______________________________________________
drinks mailing list
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: drinks-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:drinks-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Bhatia, Vikas
> Sent: Monday, March 12, 2012 2:44 PM
> To: drinks@ietf.org
> Subject: [drinks] FW: I-D Action: draft-ietf-drinks-spp-framework-
> 01.txt
>=20
> Hi All,
>=20
> New versions of the draft documents for the SPP Framework and SPP
> Protocol over SOAP have been submitted today.
>=20
> Following are the set of changes to the documents. Action Item (AI)
> numbers are listed (wherever applicable). These AIs were identified in
> the last Interim and subsequent weekly design meetings.

My comments have been completely addressed - thanks!

Scott

From kcartwright@tnsi.com  Wed Mar 14 08:04:46 2012
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From: "Cartwright, Ken" <kcartwright@tnsi.com>
To: Mickael Marrache <mickaelmarrache@gmail.com>, "drinks@ietf.org" <drinks@ietf.org>
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 11:04:25 -0400
Thread-Topic: [drinks] SPPF changes proposal
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Hi Mickael,

So is the new use case the "Want to be able to peer a single PI with a sing=
le SSP, in high volume?, Iow want to support many many one-to-one relations=
hips between PIs and peering SSPs".  If so, then that is certainly not a us=
e case that we ever worked toward, or documented in the use case document. =
 But the model certainly supports it in low volume.  And as described furth=
er below, this seems, from my point of view, to be a rare, low volume, and =
maybe even just a theoretical use case.

I tried to further answer some of your peering how-to and what-if inquiries=
 below.

Thanks


________________________________
From: Mickael Marrache [mailto:mickaelmarrache@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2012 8:50 AM
To: Cartwright, Ken; drinks@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [drinks] SPPF changes proposal

Hi Ken,
1) Maybe if you could provide/describe a new use case that the current mode=
l does not support then the need for the proposal would be clearer.

As I understood from a previous response (not this one), the User ENUM scen=
ario consists of a set of subscribers of a certain SSP. Each of the subscri=
ber provides a certain route specific to it that is then associated to its =
telephone number. So, the registrant SSP adds the concerned PIs, the route =
records and the associations between them.
KJC:  The associations between them are attributes of the PI, so there is n=
ot a separate step required to create the PI and its association to a Route=
 Rec, furthermore, the protocol specifically allows PIs and Route Recs to b=
e created/modified/deleted in a single request/transaction if that is deeme=
d appropriate by the provisioning client.  So this can all happen at once.
Then, to share the route records associated to these PIs, the registrant SS=
P groups the PIs in a DG, creates a RG, associates the DG to the RG and sha=
res the RG to a peering organization.
KJC:  Again, it depends.  The flow can occur that way, but it is unlikely t=
hat it will happen that way, as a multi-step process.  More likely is that =
the provisioning client will have created the DG(s) and the RG(s) at some p=
revious time.  And as new TNs are brought active they are just provisioned =
in, "into" that DG.  So it is effectively a one step process as new TNs are=
 brought active.
Optionally, the RG may have route records associated to it. What is the mea=
ning of these routes?
KJC:  I don't understand the question, it seems so basic that I must misund=
erstand.
If the routes corresponding to each PI are shared, the peering organization=
 can establish sessions directly to these PIs? Do you mean these are genera=
l routes that may be used to establish sessions to these PIs through the re=
gistrant SSP network?
KJC:  Maybe, maybe not.  It all depends on who the registrant is and whethe=
r they have a network, who the registrant is and whether they have a networ=
k, etc, etc.  You're asking about all the difference use cases of how calls=
 are routed using SIP and ENUM, and how other data about TNs is looked up a=
nd used?

Is there any case where a SSP would be interested to share only one PI to a=
nother SSP ?
KJC:  That would certainly be quite unusual.
If yes, the current model requires creating a DG and a RG to enable peering=
 of the single PI.
KJC:  I've never seen the need for that arise in the real world.  And while=
 it is certainly theoretically possible, it is, by definition, a very an un=
usual, low volume case.  So the model supports it, if it were to arise.  Bu=
t even the proposed changes do not support that use case notably better tha=
n the current model.  The proposed model just adds another grouping mechani=
sm and then proposes using that second grouping mechanism.
I'm just thinking about the way of finding a generic model that is not buil=
t for specific needs, and I think the proposed model is not so different th=
at the current one, the main change concerns introduction of an abstraction=
 layer to deal with single elements and groups of elements as a single unit=
.

KJC:  I don't agree with the characterizations in the above statement, "gen=
eric", "specific needs".
2) In the current model the Route Recs associated to a Route Group are inte=
nded to be applicableTo/appropriateFor multiple/many PIs.  A Route Rec dire=
ctly associated to a PI is intended to be applicableTo/appropriateFor just =
that PI (e.g. contain PI specific info such as in user ENUM).  Given that, =
why would we also want the Route Recs that are directly associated to a PI =
to be part of a named group, so that they could be easily associated to mul=
tiple/many PIs.

The proposed model doesn't force you to group route records directly associ=
ated to a PI. You may associate the PI with each route record separately. T=
hen, if a registrant SSP wants to share these route records to a peering or=
ganization, it may group them in an association group and share this group.

3) And in regards to your statement... "Also, I didn't get an answer concer=
ning the possibility to associate a single TNR, TNP or RN directly to one o=
r more route records. Would we add also a direct association from RN, TNR o=
r TNP to route record?"  Sorry, but I guess I missed that question in your =
original email.  I'm not fully clear on the question, but I think it may be=
 answered by understanding point 2 above.

This is the same scenario as for the TN but this is not supported by the cu=
rrent draft since the list of directly associated route records is defined =
in the TN type and not in the PubIdType. What I mean is that we may have a =
single RN, TNR or TNP associated to one or more PIs directly. And in this c=
ase, why also to use grouping elements when they are not necessary?

KJC:  I can't agree that the grouping mechanism is not necessary for RNs, T=
NRs, or TNPs.  Many hundreds and thousands for those things are often given=
 the same routes for one or more given SSPs.

Mickael




On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 1:26 AM, Cartwright, Ken <kcartwright@tnsi.com<mailt=
o:kcartwright@tnsi.com>> wrote:
Sorry, typo in item 2, it should read
2) In the current model the Route Recs associated to a Route Group are inte=
nded to be applicableTo/appropriateFor multiple/many PIs.  A Route Rec dire=
ctly associated to a PI is intended to be applicableTo/appropriateFor just =
that PI (e.g. contain PI specific info such as in user ENUM).  Given that, =
why would we also want the Route Recs that are directly associated to a PI =
to be part of a named group, so that they could be easily associated to mul=
tiple/many PIs.

________________________________
From: drinks-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:drinks-bounces@ietf.org> [mailto:drink=
s-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:drinks-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf Of Cartwright=
, Ken
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2012 5:55 PM
To: Mickael Marrache; drinks@ietf.org<mailto:drinks@ietf.org>

Subject: Re: [drinks] SPPF changes proposal

Hi Mickael,

1) Maybe if you could provide/describe a new use case that the current mode=
l does not support then the need for the proposal would be clearer.

2) In the current model the Route Recs associated to a Route Group are inte=
nded to be applicableTo/appropriateFor multiple/many PIs.  A Route Rec dire=
ctly associated to a PI is intended to be applicableTo/appropriateFor just =
that PI (e.g. contain PI specific info such as in user ENUM).  Given that, =
why would we also want the PIs that are directly associated to a PI to be p=
art of a named group, so that they could be easily associated to multiple/m=
any PIs.

3) And in regards to your statement... "Also, I didn't get an answer concer=
ning the possibility to associate a single TNR, TNP or RN directly to one o=
r more route records. Would we add also a direct association from RN, TNR o=
r TNP to route record?"  Sorry, but I guess I missed that question in your =
original email.  I'm not fully clear on the question, but I think it may be=
 answered by understanding point 2 above.
Ken

________________________________
From: Mickael Marrache [mailto:mickaelmarrache@gmail.com<mailto:mickaelmarr=
ache@gmail.com>]
Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2012 12:55 PM
To: Cartwright, Ken; drinks@ietf.org<mailto:drinks@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [drinks] SPPF changes proposal

Hi Ken,
"To meet the requirements deduced from the user ENUM use case, a direct ass=
ociation between the TN and route record types has been added"
KJC:  Nothing has been "added", the data model has been this way for at lea=
st two years now.

You're right. Sorry for saying something I didn't check.

"So, one solution is to include these route records in a dummy (since the i=
ncluded route records have not common routes) destination group DG-1. Then,=
 we also create a dummy (since it doesn't contain any route) route group RG=
-1 and associate it to DG-1. Then, the route group may be offered to a peer=
ing organization."

KJC: The Destination Group and the Route Group you refer to as "Dummys", ar=
e not "Dummys" they are an integral and expected part of the data structure=
.

"First, since the destination group DG-1 and the route group RG-1 are not u=
sed for their primary reason (a destination group allows grouping of public=
 identifiers that share a common set of routes, and a route group is genera=
lly used to group route records that may correspond to a same "destination"=
 - that's why we share them as a block), it reveals a potential design issu=
e."

KJC:  The Route Group you refer to as "not contain any route rec" is not ac=
curate.  It may or may not contain Route Recs.  It is up to the registrant =
and registrar to decide whether they wish to have route recs on a given rou=
te group, regardless of whether they have also decided to have Route Recs d=
irectly associated with a PI (i.e. in the user ENUM case, where some PIs wi=
ll/may have Route Recs that contain info that is specific to that PI).  The=
 model allows both, depending on the Registrar's Registrant's need.

So, the route group may or may not contain route records.
If it doesn't contain route records, I understand that it is only used to s=
hare the route records directly associated to the PIs. In this case, do you=
 agree that it is not a real route group (i.e. a construct that allows regr=
ouping route records that correspond to a same destination)?
If it does contain route records, I understand that it plays two roles: it =
allows sharing the route records directly associated to the PIs as previous=
ly, and it allows sharing the route records that correspond to a same desti=
nation.


KJC:  The Destination Group and Route Groups involved here _do_ in fact ser=
ve the purpose that they are designed to serve.  They allow the peering vis=
ibility of large numbers of public identities and their routing information=
 to be controlled at an aggregate with just a few number of API calls, as a=
pposed to millions (one per PI or Route Rec).  They allow the Destination G=
roup to be associated or disassociated to from one or more Route Group obje=
cts in a single command as the need arises, they allow the Route Group to b=
e offered/accepted in a single command, rather than one per route rec (whic=
h there would be millions of in the User ENUM case) or one per PI.  They Ro=
ute Group allows further control of the visibility based on source-based ro=
uting, and other routing selection algorithms that, at this time, would be =
vendor specific since they are not in the protocol (e.g. time-of-day, cost,=
 etc).

In the proposed model, this property is still true. It also allows the peer=
ing visibility of a large number of public identifiers and their routing in=
formation also using an aggregate (you will note that we didn't remove the =
destination and route groups constructs) with a few number of API calls. An=
d I disagree when you say that the proposed model requires offering to be d=
one per route in the user ENUM case. When a huge number of PIs are associat=
ed to route records directly (though a RoutingAssoc element), you are not f=
orced to offer each one of these associations, you simply need to regroup t=
hem in an association group and to share this association group, I don't se=
e here any scalability issue.
Also, source based routing is also present in the proposed data model, in t=
he ShareableElement type.


"In this case, when an originating SSP wants to know the routes records ass=
ociated to TN 1 for example...."

KJC:  The second paragraph in your note attempts to describe part of the re=
solution process, I've included the first part of your statement above.  It=
 basically says that the resolution process is somehow different if Route R=
ecs are directly associated with the PI than if they are associated with th=
e Route Group.  This is not accurate.  First off, SPPP does not attempt to =
define how resolution servers must evaluate the data that SPP provisions.  =
Doing so would be folly, since TN resolution logic is much too involved, an=
d often situation specific, including looking at data sources that do not e=
ven come in over SPPP (e.g. portability data, etc, etc).  However, the basi=
c logic involves (1) using the lookup key (e.g. a TN) and the source of the=
 query to get the Destination Groups that contain that lookup key that are =
visible to that source based on the Route Groups that that source has accep=
ted (or auto-accepted), (2) collecting the Route Recs that are on the Route=
 Group(s) if any and/or the PI if any, (3) evaluating the Route Recs based =
on their priority (and other vendor specific resolution logic, which the pr=
otocol does not attempt to specify), then sending the collected Route Recs =
out in the resolution response.  Notice that there are not two different fl=
ows.

My comment for this point is related to the fact that a route group plays t=
he two roles mentioned previously. Playing what I call the basic role (regr=
ouping route records corresponding to the same destination) and the disturb=
ing role (allowing offer for route records directly associated to PIs) is s=
imply not intuitive. And, that's why David qualified this role as a hack. I=
t's not a derision for the current model, it is simply the fact that there =
is something that is at the wrong place.
Also, I didn't get an answer concerning the possibility to associate a sing=
le TNR, TNP or RN directly to one or more route records. Would we add also =
a direct association from RN, TNR or TNP to route record?


KJC:  But from a bigger picture perspective, when the proposal was brought =
up yesterday, it was brought up under the guise that "the current data mode=
l is broken and it a hack in this area, so we need to do X, Y and Z".  This=
 is simply not accurate, as I've described above.  Secondly, the proposed a=
lternative simply does not work in terms of scalability for the User ENUM u=
se case.  The proposal would result in millions of Route Recs (since in the=
 user enum case the Route Recs contain PI specific data) having to be offer=
ed and accepted.  So even the primary target use case of the proposal just =
does not work well.  So given that the current model is not "broken" and is=
 not a "hack" and given that the new proposal does not scale for the user e=
num use case, why add in the additional complexity that results from the ne=
w proposal?

At this point, I still don't understand why the proposed model is not accur=
ate. I don't understand why millions of route records have to been offered =
and accepted? I think grouping associations solves this problem. Please, ca=
n you illustrate by a scenario or diagram (especially for the User ENUM use=
 case)?


I just want to precise that my comments are not intended to create conflict=
s in any manner especially when I see that it's late to raise such proposit=
ions and that the draft will become soon a RFC. I'm just trying to add my e=
fforts to this framework/protocol.

Thanks

Mickael

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<body lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"blue">
<div class=3D"Section1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Hi Mickael,<o:p></o:p></span></font></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">So is the new use case the &#8220;Want=
 to be able to peer a single PI with a single SSP, in high volume?, Iow wan=
t to support many many one-to-one
 relationships between PIs and peering SSPs&#8221;.&nbsp; If so, then that =
is certainly not a use case that we ever worked toward, or documented in th=
e use case document. &nbsp;But the model certainly supports it in low volum=
e.&nbsp; And as described further below, this seems,
 from my point of view, to be a rare, low volume, and maybe even just a the=
oretical use case.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">I tried to further answer some of your=
 peering how-to and what-if inquiries below.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><font=
 size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center" tabindex=3D"-1">
</span></font></div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Tahoma"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold">From:</span></font></b><font size=3D"2=
" face=3D"Tahoma"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma"> Mick=
ael Marrache [mailto:mickaelmarrache@gmail.com]
<br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Thursday, March 08, 20=
12 8:50 AM<br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> Cartwright, Ken; <st1:Pe=
rsonName w:st=3D"on">
drinks@ietf.org</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: [drinks] SPPF c=
hanges proposal</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:
12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><font size=3D"3" face=
=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Hi Ken,<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">1) Maybe if you could provide/describe=
 a new use case that the current model does not support then the need for t=
he proposal would be
 clearer.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><font size=3D"3" face=
=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><br>
As I understood from a previous response (not this one), the User ENUM scen=
ario consists of a set of subscribers of a certain SSP. Each of the subscri=
ber provides a certain route specific to it that is then associated to its =
telephone number. So, the registrant
 SSP adds the concerned PIs, the route records and the associations between=
 them.<font color=3D"navy"><span style=3D"color:navy"><o:p></o:p></span></f=
ont></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><font size=3D"2" colo=
r=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial=
;color:navy">KJC:&nbsp; The associations between them are attributes of the=
 PI, so there is not a separate step required to
 create the PI and its association to a Route Rec, furthermore, the protoco=
l specifically allows PIs and Route Recs to be created/modified/deleted in =
a single request/transaction if that is deemed appropriate by the provision=
ing client. &nbsp;So this can all happen
 at once.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><font size=3D"3" face=
=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Then, to share the ro=
ute records associated to these PIs, the registrant SSP groups the PIs in a=
 DG, creates a RG, associates the DG to the
 RG and shares the RG to a peering organization.<font color=3D"navy"><span =
style=3D"color:navy"><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><font size=3D"2" colo=
r=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial=
;color:navy">KJC:&nbsp; Again, it depends.&nbsp; The flow can occur that wa=
y, but it is unlikely that it will happen that way, as
 a multi-step process. &nbsp;More likely is that the provisioning client wi=
ll have created the DG(s) and the RG(s) at some previous time.&nbsp; And as=
 new TNs are brought active they are just provisioned in, &#8220;into&#8221=
; that DG. &nbsp;So it is effectively a one step process as
 new TNs are brought active.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><font size=3D"3" face=
=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Optionally, the RG ma=
y have route records associated to it. What is the meaning of these routes?=
<font color=3D"navy"><span style=3D"color:navy">
<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><font size=3D"2" colo=
r=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial=
;color:navy">KJC:&nbsp; I don&#8217;t understand the question, it seems so =
basic that I must misunderstand.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><font size=3D"3" face=
=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">If the routes corresp=
onding to each PI are shared, the peering organization can establish sessio=
ns directly to these PIs? Do you mean these
 are general routes that may be used to establish sessions to these PIs thr=
ough the registrant SSP network?<font color=3D"navy"><span style=3D"color:n=
avy"><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><font size=3D"2" colo=
r=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial=
;color:navy">KJC:&nbsp; Maybe, maybe not.&nbsp; It all depends on who the r=
egistrant is and whether they have a network, who the
 registrant is and whether they have a network, etc, etc.&nbsp; You&#8217;r=
e asking about all the difference use cases of how calls are routed using S=
IP and ENUM, and how other data about TNs is looked up and used?<o:p></o:p>=
</span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><font size=3D"3" face=
=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><br>
Is there any case where a SSP would be interested to share only one PI to a=
nother SSP ?<font color=3D"navy"><span style=3D"color:navy"><o:p></o:p></sp=
an></font></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><font size=3D"2" colo=
r=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial=
;color:navy">KJC:&nbsp; That would certainly be quite unusual.<o:p></o:p></=
span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><font size=3D"3" face=
=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">If yes, the current m=
odel requires creating a DG and a RG to enable peering of the single PI.
<font color=3D"navy"><span style=3D"color:navy"><o:p></o:p></span></font></=
span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><font size=3D"2" colo=
r=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial=
;color:navy">KJC:&nbsp; I&#8217;ve never seen the need for that arise in th=
e real world. &nbsp;And while it is certainly theoretically
 possible, it is, by definition, a very an unusual, low volume case. &nbsp;=
So the model supports it, if it were to arise. &nbsp;But even the proposed =
changes do not support that use case notably better than the current model.=
 &nbsp;The proposed model just adds another grouping
 mechanism and then proposes using that second grouping mechanism.<o:p></o:=
p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><font size=3D"3" face=
=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">I'm just thinking abo=
ut the way of finding a generic model that is not built for specific needs,=
 and I think the proposed model is not so
 different that the current one, the main change concerns introduction of a=
n abstraction layer to deal with single elements and groups of elements as =
a single unit.
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><font size=3D"2" colo=
r=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial=
;color:navy">KJC:&nbsp; I don&#8217;t agree with the characterizations in t=
he above statement, &#8220;generic&#8221;, &#8220;specific needs&#8221;.<o:=
p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">2) In the current model the Route Recs=
 associated to a Route Group are intended to be applicableTo/appropriateFor=
 multiple/many PIs.
 &nbsp;A Route Rec directly associated to a PI is intended to be applicable=
To/appropriateFor just that PI (e.g. contain PI specific info such as in us=
er ENUM). &nbsp;Given that, why would we also want the Route Recs that are =
directly associated to a PI to be part of
 a named group, so that they could be easily associated to multiple/many PI=
s.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><font size=3D"3" face=
=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><br>
The proposed model doesn't force you to group route records directly associ=
ated to a PI. You may associate the PI with each route record separately. T=
hen, if a registrant SSP wants to share these route records to a peering or=
ganization, it may group them in
 an association group and share this group.<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy">3) And in regards to your statement&#8230; &#8220;</span></font=
><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:1=
0.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black">Also,
 I didn't get an answer concerning the possibility to associate a single TN=
R, TNP or RN directly to one or more route records. Would we add also a dir=
ect association from RN, TNR or TNP to route record?&#8221;&nbsp;
</span></font><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D=
"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Sorry, but I guess I missed=
 that question in your original email. &nbsp;I&#8217;m not fully clear on t=
he question, but I think it may be answered by understanding
 point 2 above.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:
12.0pt"><br>
This is the same scenario as for the TN but this is not supported by the cu=
rrent draft since the list of directly associated route records is defined =
in the TN type and not in the PubIdType. What I mean is that we may have a =
single RN, TNR or TNP associated
 to one or more PIs directly. And in this case, why also to use grouping el=
ements when they are not necessary?<font color=3D"navy"><span style=3D"colo=
r:navy"><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Times New Ro=
man"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:navy"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></=
font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Times New Ro=
man"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:navy">KJC: &nbsp;I can&#8217;t a=
gree that the grouping mechanism is not necessary for RNs, TNRs, or TNPs. &=
nbsp;Many hundreds and thousands for those things are often
 given the same routes for one or more given SSPs.<o:p></o:p></span></font>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:
12.0pt"><br>
Mickael<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 1:26 AM, Cartwright, Ken &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kcart=
wright@tnsi.com">kcartwright@tnsi.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></fon=
t></p>
<div link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy">Sorry, typo in item 2, it should read
</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy">2) In the current model the Route Recs associated to a Route Gr=
oup are intended
 to be applicableTo/appropriateFor multiple/many PIs. &nbsp;A Route Rec dir=
ectly associated to a PI is intended to be applicableTo/appropriateFor just=
 that PI (e.g. contain PI specific info such as in user ENUM). &nbsp;Given =
that, why would we also want the Route Recs
 that are directly associated to a PI to be part of a named group, so that =
they could be easily associated to multiple/many PIs.</span></font><o:p></o=
:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy">&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><font=
 size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</span></font></div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Tahoma"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0p=
t;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:
bold">From:</span></font></b><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Tahoma"><span style=
=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma">
<a href=3D"mailto:drinks-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">drinks-bounces=
@ietf.org</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:drinks-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"=
_blank">drinks-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">On Behalf Of </span></b>Cartwright, Ken=
<br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, March 06, 201=
2 5:55 PM<br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> Mickael Marrache; <a hre=
f=3D"mailto:drinks@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">
drinks@ietf.org</a></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Tahoma"><span style=3D"font=
-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma"><br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: [drinks] SPPF c=
hanges proposal</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"font-size=
:12.0pt">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy">Hi Mickael,</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy">&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy">1) Maybe if you could provide/describe a new use case that the =
current model
 does not support then the need for the proposal would be clearer.</span></=
font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy">&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy">2) In the current model the Route Recs associated to a Route Gr=
oup are intended
 to be applicableTo/appropriateFor multiple/many PIs. &nbsp;A Route Rec dir=
ectly associated to a PI is intended to be applicableTo/appropriateFor just=
 that PI (e.g. contain PI specific info such as in user ENUM). &nbsp;Given =
that, why would we also want the PIs that
 are directly associated to a PI to be part of a named group, so that they =
could be easily associated to multiple/many PIs.</span></font><o:p></o:p></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy">&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy">3) And in regards to your statement&#8230; &#8220;</span></font=
><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:1=
0.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black">Also,
 I didn't get an answer concerning the possibility to associate a single TN=
R, TNP or RN directly to one or more route records. Would we add also a dir=
ect association from RN, TNR or TNP to route record?&#8221;&nbsp;
</span></font><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D=
"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy">Sorry, but I guess I missed=
 that question in your original email. &nbsp;I&#8217;m not fully clear on t=
he question, but I think it may be answered by understanding
 point 2 above.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy">Ken<i><span style=3D"font-style:italic">
</span></i></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy">&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><font=
 size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</span></font></div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Tahoma"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0p=
t;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:
bold">From:</span></font></b><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Tahoma"><span style=
=3D"font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma">
 Mickael Marrache [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mickaelmarrache@gmail.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">mickaelmarrache@gmail.com</a>]
<br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Saturday, March 03, 20=
12 12:55 PM<br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> Cartwright, Ken; <a href=
=3D"mailto:drinks@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">
drinks@ietf.org</a><br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: [drinks] SPPF c=
hanges proposal</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"font-size=
:12.0pt">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0p=
t"><font size=3D"3" color=3D"black" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size=
:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black">Hi Ken,</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy">&#8220;</span></font>To meet the requirements deduced from the =
user ENUM use case,
 a direct association between the TN and route record types has been added&=
#8221;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy">KJC:&nbsp; Nothing has been &#8220;added&#8221;, the data model=
 has been this way for at least
 two years now.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0p=
t"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0p=
t"><br>
You're right. Sorry for saying something I didn't check.&nbsp; <o:p></o:p><=
/span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy">&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;
margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy">&#8220;</span></font>So, one solution is to include these route=
 records in a dummy
 (since the included route records have not common routes) destination grou=
p DG-1. Then, we also create a dummy (since it doesn't contain any route) r=
oute group RG-1 and associate it to DG-1. Then, the route group may be offe=
red to a peering organization.&#8221;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"font-size=
:12.0pt">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy">KJC: The Destination Group and the Route Group you refer to as =
&#8220;Dummys&#8221;, are
 not &#8220;Dummys&#8221; they are an integral and expected part of the dat=
a structure.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"font-size=
:12.0pt">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"font-size=
:12.0pt">&#8220;First, since the destination group DG-1 and the route group=
 RG-1 are not used for their primary reason (a destination
 group allows grouping of public identifiers that share a common set of rou=
tes, and a route group is generally used to group route records that may co=
rrespond to a same &quot;destination&quot; - that's why we share them as a =
block), it reveals a potential design issue.&#8221;<o:p></o:p></span></font=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy">&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy">KJC:&nbsp; The Route Group you refer to as &#8220;not contain a=
ny route rec&#8221; is not accurate.&nbsp;
 It may or may not contain Route Recs.&nbsp; It is up to the registrant and=
 registrar to decide whether they wish to have route recs on a given route =
group, regardless of whether they have also decided to have Route Recs dire=
ctly associated with a PI (i.e. in the
 user ENUM case, where some PIs will/may have Route Recs that contain info =
that is specific to that PI).&nbsp; The model allows both, depending on the=
 Registrar&#8217;s Registrant&#8217;s need.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy">&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black">So, the route group may or may not contain route records.</spa=
n></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black">If it doesn't contain route records, I understand that it is o=
nly used to
 share the route records directly associated to the PIs. In this case, do y=
ou agree that it is not a
<i><span style=3D"font-style:italic">real </span></i>route group (i.e. a co=
nstruct that allows regrouping route records that correspond to a same dest=
ination)?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black">If it does contain route records, I understand that it plays t=
wo roles:
 it allows sharing the route records directly associated to the PIs as prev=
iously, and it allows sharing the route records that correspond to a same d=
estination.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"font-size=
:12.0pt">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"font-size=
:12.0pt">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;
margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy">KJC:&nbsp; The Destination Group and Route Groups involved here=
 _<i><span style=3D"font-style:italic">do</span></i>_
 in fact serve the purpose that they are designed to serve. &nbsp;They allo=
w the peering visibility of large numbers of public identities and their ro=
uting information to be controlled at an aggregate with just a few number o=
f API calls, as apposed to millions (one
 per PI or Route Rec). &nbsp;They allow the Destination Group to be associa=
ted or disassociated to from one or more Route Group objects in a single co=
mmand as the need arises, they allow the Route Group to be offered/accepted=
 in a single command, rather than one
 per route rec (which there would be millions of in the User ENUM case) or =
one per PI. &nbsp;They Route Group allows further control of the visibility=
 based on source-based routing, and other routing selection algorithms that=
, at this time, would be vendor specific
 since they are not in the protocol (e.g. time-of-day, cost, etc).</span></=
font><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"font-size=
:12.0pt">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black">In the proposed model, this property is still true. It also al=
lows the peering
 visibility of a large number of public identifiers and their routing infor=
mation also using an aggregate (you will note that we didn't remove the des=
tination and route groups constructs) with a few number of API calls. And I=
 disagree when you say that the
 proposed model requires offering to be done per route in the user ENUM cas=
e. When a huge number of PIs are associated to route records directly (thou=
gh a RoutingAssoc element), you are not forced to offer each one of these a=
ssociations, you simply need to
 regroup them in an association group and to share this association group, =
I don't see here any scalability issue.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black">Also, source based routing is also present in the proposed dat=
a model, in
 the ShareableElement type.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"font-size=
:12.0pt">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"font-size=
:12.0pt">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;
margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy">&#8220;</span></font>In this case, when an originating SSP want=
s to know the routes
 records associated to TN 1 for example&#8230;.&#8221;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy">&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy">KJC:&nbsp; The second paragraph in your note attempts to descri=
be part of the resolution
 process, I&#8217;ve included the first part of your statement above.&nbsp;=
 It basically says that the resolution process is somehow different if Rout=
e Recs are directly associated with the PI than if they are associated with=
 the Route Group. &nbsp;This is not accurate.&nbsp; First
 off, SPPP does not attempt to define how resolution servers must evaluate =
the data that SPP provisions. &nbsp;Doing so would be folly, since TN resol=
ution logic is much too involved, and often situation specific, including l=
ooking at data sources that do not even
 come in over SPPP (e.g. portability data, etc, etc).&nbsp; However, the ba=
sic logic involves (1) using the lookup key (e.g. a TN) and the source of t=
he query to get the Destination Groups that contain that lookup key that ar=
e visible to that source based on the
 Route Groups that that source has accepted (or auto-accepted), (2) collect=
ing the Route Recs that are on the Route Group(s) if any and/or the PI if a=
ny, (3) evaluating the Route Recs based on their priority (and other vendor=
 specific resolution logic, which
 the protocol does not attempt to specify), then sending the collected Rout=
e Recs out in the resolution response.&nbsp; Notice that there are not two =
different flows.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy">&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black">My comment for this point is related to the fact that a route =
group plays
 the two roles mentioned previously. Playing what I call the basic role (re=
grouping route records corresponding to the same destination) and the distu=
rbing role (allowing offer for route records directly associated to PIs) is=
 simply not intuitive. And, that's
 why David qualified this role as a hack. It's not a derision for the curre=
nt model, it is simply the fact that there is something that is at the wron=
g place.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black">Also, I didn't get an answer concerning the possibility to ass=
ociate a single
 TNR, TNP or RN directly to one or more route records. Would we add also a =
direct association from RN, TNR or TNP to route record?</span></font><o:p><=
/o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy">&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"font-size=
:12.0pt">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;
margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy">KJC:&nbsp; But from a bigger picture perspective, when the prop=
osal was brought
 up yesterday, it was brought up under the guise that &#8220;the current da=
ta model is broken and it a hack in this area, so we need to do X, Y and Z&=
#8221;. &nbsp;This is simply not accurate, as I&#8217;ve described above.&n=
bsp; Secondly, the proposed alternative simply does not work
 in terms of scalability for the User ENUM use case. &nbsp;The proposal wou=
ld result in millions of Route Recs (since in the user enum case the Route =
Recs contain PI specific data) having to be offered and accepted.&nbsp; So =
even the primary target use case of the proposal
 just does not work well.&nbsp; So given that the current model is not &#82=
20;broken&#8221; and is not a &#8220;hack&#8221; and given that the new pro=
posal does not scale for the user enum use case, why add in the additional =
complexity that results from the new proposal?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"navy" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy">&nbsp;</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"2" color=3D"black" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:black">At this point, I still don't understand why the proposed model=
 is not accurate.
 I don't understand why millions of route records have to been offered and =
accepted? I think grouping associations solves this problem. Please, can yo=
u illustrate by a scenario or diagram (especially for the User ENUM use cas=
e)?</span></font><br>
<br>
<br>
I just want to precise that my comments are not intended to create conflict=
s in any manner especially when I see that it's late to raise such proposit=
ions and that the draft will become soon a RFC. I'm just trying to add my e=
fforts to this framework/protocol.<br>
<br>
Thanks<br>
<br>
Mickael<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"font-size=
:12.0pt">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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 size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</span></font></div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0p=
t"><font size=3D"1" color=3D"gray" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:=
7.5pt;font-family:Arial;
color:gray">This e-mail message is for the sole use of the intended recipie=
nt(s)and may<br>
contain confidential and privileged information of Transaction Network Serv=
ices.<br>
Any unauthorised review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If =
you<br>
are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail a=
nd destroy all copies of the original message.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:
12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><font=
 size=3D"3" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">
<hr size=3D"2" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</span></font></div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><font size=3D"1" colo=
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Any unauthorised review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If =
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All,

please find attached the draft minutes of yesterday's design team
meeting call. The design team will have a pre-meeting discussion round
in Paris on Tue, Mar 29 at 6:30pm local time (location TDB).

thanks,

Alex


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I reread our drafts earlier today and have a few nits.


Framework doc

3.1 Def 1 has gibberish "comprises of"

Def of "peering organization" is unsatisfying. Is it another registrant?
Maybe the problem is in the definition of registrant, which doesn't say a
rant isa/isnota  organization. One has to dig into 5.1 for this to get
clear.

4.4 "provisions" should be singular.

With 4.5, relation between rar, rant, and auth is unclear.

4.7 near real time needs further explanation. Fast enough to do a lookup
while completing a call?

4.8 data set should be plural

5.2.2 the para starting "A Route Group Offer". The "Refer" needs a "To". Check
all instances of "refer" in doc as the style used is consistently
inconsistent with US technical English.

6.5  RteGrpOfferKeyType has spelling error "specificaiton".

6.6 first sentence "paths" should be singular.


SOAP Doc

5. Needs to tell us the product of authentication; that is the identity of
the rar to be used with the unspecified rar/rant authorization table.

6.2.1.1 stop/rollback discussion should make reference to how we tell the
requester which mechanism will be or was applied.

9. Are the example SSPs acting as registrars? Registrants?

Security Considerations are in general weak. There is no discussion of
actors, intent, or vectors.


I remain perplexed by the peering model. All we have is a model of
grant/accept for authorization to make records visible. There is a lot more
to peering.

--047d7b15aeb5e7c0b504bc4dd85b
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
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<span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style><div>I reread our drafts earlier tod=
ay and have a few nits.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Framework d=
oc</div><div><br></div><div>3.1 Def 1 has gibberish &quot;comprises of&quot=
;</div>
<div><br></div><div>Def of &quot;peering organization&quot; is unsatisfying=
. Is it another registrant? Maybe the problem is in the definition of regis=
trant, which doesn&#39;t say a rant isa/isnota =A0organization. One has to =
dig into 5.1 for this to get clear.</div>
<div><br></div><div>4.4 &quot;provisions&quot; should be singular.</div><di=
v><br></div><div>With 4.5, relation between rar, rant, and auth is unclear.=
</div><div><br></div><div>4.7 near real time needs further explanation. Fas=
t enough to do a lookup while completing a call?</div>
<div><br></div><div>4.8 data set should be plural</div><div><br></div><div>=
5.2.2 the para starting &quot;A Route Group Offer&quot;. The &quot;Refer&qu=
ot; needs a &quot;To&quot;.<span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style>=A0Check =
all instances of &quot;refer&quot; in doc as the style used is consistently=
 inconsistent with US technical English.</span></div>
<div><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style><br></span></div><div><span cla=
ss=3D"Apple-style-span" style>6.5 =A0RteGrpOfferKeyType has spelling error =
&quot;specificaiton&quot;.</span></div><div><span class=3D"Apple-style-span=
" style><br>
</span></div><div><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style>6.6 first sentence=
 &quot;paths&quot; should be singular.</span></div><div><span class=3D"Appl=
e-style-span" style><br></span></div><div><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style><br>
</span></div><div><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style>SOAP Doc</span></d=
iv><div><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style><br></span></div><div><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style>5. Needs to tell us the product of authent=
ication; that is the identity of the rar to be used with the unspecified ra=
r/rant authorization table.</span></div>
<div><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style><br></span></div><div><span cla=
ss=3D"Apple-style-span" style>6.2.1.1 stop/rollback discussion should make =
reference to how we tell the requester which mechanism will be or was appli=
ed.</span></div>
<div><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style><br></span></div><div><span cla=
ss=3D"Apple-style-span" style>9. Are the example SSPs acting as registrars?=
 Registrants?</span></div><div><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style><br><=
/span></div>
<div><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style>Security Considerations are in =
general weak. There is no discussion of actors, intent, or vectors.</span><=
/div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>I remain perplexed by the peering m=
odel. All we have is a model of grant/accept for authorization to make reco=
rds visible. There is a lot more to peering.<span></span></div>
</span>

--047d7b15aeb5e7c0b504bc4dd85b--

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Subject: [drinks] DRINKS WG meeting tomorrow -- Mar 29, Thu, from 3:20p-5:20p!
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Folks,

We hope to see you all at the DRINKS WG meeting tomorrow afternoon from 3:2=
0p-5:20p (location: 212/213)! For those joining us remotely, the Meetecho l=
ink is:
http://www.meetecho.com/ietf83/drinks


Also, we have posted a revised agenda (based on feedback), and uploaded the=
 slide decks that we have received so far.

Link to the revised agenda:

*         http://tools.ietf.org/wg/drinks/agenda?item=3Dagenda-83-drinks.ht=
ml


Link to meeting materials:

*         https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/83/materials.html (search fo=
r DRINKS)


Specifically, two additions were made to the agenda:

--
         5/ Open Items Discussion (45 mts)
             A) SPPF Batch DOS Considerations (Jeremy Barkan)
             B) Route Rule Type (David Schwartz)
             C) Route group offer generalization (David Schwartz)
             D) Others?

          6/ Coin's (coin.nl) plans for using ENUM data for routing telecom=
 services between networks (10 mts; Theo van den Berg, Stefphen Mans)

--

- Alex & Sumanth


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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vli=
nk=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal>Folks,<o:p></o:p=
></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>We hope=
 to see you all at the DRINKS WG meeting tomorrow afternoon from 3:20p-5:20=
p (location: 212/213)! For those joining us remotely, the Meetecho link is:=
 <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><a href=3D"http://www.meetecho.com/iet=
f83/drinks">http://www.meetecho.com/ietf83/drinks</a> <o:p></o:p></p><p cla=
ss=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p><=
/p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Also, we have posted a revised agenda (based on fee=
dback), and uploaded the slide decks that we have received so far. <o:p></o=
:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><i>Li=
nk to the revised agenda:<o:p></o:p></i></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph sty=
le=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><spa=
n style=3D'font-family:Symbol'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>&middot;<spa=
n style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span></span><![endif]><a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.=
org/wg/drinks/agenda?item=3Dagenda-83-drinks.html">http://tools.ietf.org/wg=
/drinks/agenda?item=3Dagenda-83-drinks.html</a> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DM=
soNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><i>Link to meeting materials:<o:p></o:p></i></p><p class=
=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><!=
[if !supportLists]><span style=3D'font-family:Symbol'><span style=3D'mso-li=
st:Ignore'>&middot;<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span></span><![endif]><a hre=
f=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/83/materials.html">https://datatr=
acker.ietf.org/meeting/83/materials.html</a> (search for DRINKS)<o:p></o:p>=
</p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nb=
sp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Specifically, two additions were made to =
the agenda:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p clas=
s=3DMsoNormal>--<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 5/ Open Items Discussion (45 mts)<o:p></o:p></p><=
p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; A) SPPF Batch DOS Considerations (Jeremy Barkan)<o:p></o:=
p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; B) Route Rule Type (David Schwartz)<o:p></o:p></p>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; C) Route group offer generalization (David Schwartz)<o:p=
></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;D) Others? <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNorma=
l><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 6/ Coin's (coin.nl) plans for using ENUM data for r=
outing telecom services between networks (10 mts; Theo van den Berg, Stefph=
en Mans)<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal>--<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>- Alex &amp; Sumanth<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></body></html>=

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From ietf@meetecho.com  Wed Mar 28 22:48:17 2012
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Subject: [drinks] Meetecho support for DRINKS WG meeting session
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Hi all,

a virtual room has been reserved on the Meetecho system for Thursday's 
DRINKS WG meeting session.

Access to the on-line session (including audio and video streams) will 
be available at:
http://www.meetecho.com/ietf83/drinks

The Meetecho session automatically logs you into the standard IETF 
jabber room. So, from there, you can have an integrated experience 
involving all media and allowing you to interact with the room.
Remote participants might also send their own voice to the room, if they 
want to, by either calling a landline phone number, or using our 
embedded VoIP applet (in this last case they are *strongly* advised to 
use a headset).

A tutorial of interactivity features of the tool can be found at:
http://www.meetecho.com/ietf83/tutorials

Cheers,
the Meetecho team

-- 
Meetecho s.r.l.
Web Conferencing and Collaboration Tools
www.meetecho.com

From sumanth@cablelabs.com  Thu Mar 29 09:14:14 2012
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Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 10:14:09 -0600
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Folks,

Thanks again to everyone who participated today (in-person or remotely)! Ou=
r volunteer note-taker's (Brian Rosen - many thanks!)  draft notes can be f=
ound at:

http://tools.ietf.org/wg/drinks/minutes=20

Please feel free to make corrections or changes directly. Alex and I will c=
urate it in the upcoming days.=20

Also, sorry about the challenges with remote participation - not having a w=
ired connection made for a bad connection.=20


- S=20
