From sumanth@cablelabs.com Mon Jan 7 09:17:53 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: drinks@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: drinks@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5683021F85C6 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2013 09:17:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.462 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.462 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_MODEMCABLE=0.768, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cGz62ujzb2dj for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2013 09:17:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from ondar.cablelabs.com (ondar.cablelabs.com [192.160.73.61]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6806C21F85B3 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2013 09:17:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from kyzyl.cablelabs.com (kyzyl [10.253.0.7]) by ondar.cablelabs.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id r07HHlHp004358 for ; Mon, 7 Jan 2013 10:17:47 -0700 Received: from exchange.cablelabs.com (10.5.0.19) by kyzyl.cablelabs.com (F-Secure/fsigk_smtp/407/kyzyl.cablelabs.com); Mon, 07 Jan 2013 10:17:47 -0700 (MST) X-Virus-Status: clean(F-Secure/fsigk_smtp/407/kyzyl.cablelabs.com) Received: from EXCHANGE.cablelabs.com ([fe80::797a:96d1:3c53:18ee]) by EXCHANGE.cablelabs.com ([fe80::797a:96d1:3c53:18ee%11]) with mapi id 14.02.0298.004; Mon, 7 Jan 2013 10:17:46 -0700 From: Sumanth Channabasappa To: "Drinks@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [drinks] Finishing the documents... (ad "case insensitivity") Thread-Index: Ac3X7FWHF3jg3apnRpm7fJEo1UvoxwVDpEoA Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2013 17:17:46 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <19F54F2956911544A32543B8A9BDE07509737039@NICS-EXCH.sbg.nic.at> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.2.5.121010 x-originating-ip: [10.5.0.27] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_CD10506127327sumanthcablelabscom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Approved: ondar Subject: Re: [drinks] Finishing the documents... 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[72.181.157.19]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id aw4sm12831070oec.9.2013.01.14.22.25.06 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 14 Jan 2013 22:25:07 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_57378D77-70A0-451F-ACB1-F6E29C052CCC" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.2 \(1499\)) From: Dean Willis In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 00:25:06 -0600 Message-Id: <20FC7334-C8BE-4258-BB89-A6D6D859A96B@softarmor.com> References: To: Sumanth Channabasappa X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1499) X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmPNR/V2lsRbfnYtmrMLL8+onNOho92eweKhkmvUg4jdeksLxeIgIKE3m5+h4ziTY7vQVyp Cc: "Drinks@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [drinks] Finishing the documents... (ad "case insensitivity") X-BeenThere: drinks@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF DRINKS WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 06:25:09 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_57378D77-70A0-451F-ACB1-F6E29C052CCC Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Gack! As an implementer, I'm given to having a lot of "comparison" = operators happen at layers like the MySQL runtime. I have no idea whether or not MySQL does things like that, and I don't = even know how to tell. Internationalization was a bad idea -- we should = have just stayed with 7-bit ASCII and learned to spell our umlauts = phonetically. -- Dean On Jan 7, 2013, at 11:17 AM, Sumanth Channabasappa = wrote: > Happy New Year, everyone! We went silent for a few weeks, but now that = the holidays are done :) =96 perhaps we can obtain comments and finish = this last item (?) from Alex (see below)? >=20 > Thanks! > - S >=20 > From: Alexander Mayrhofer > Date: Tuesday, December 11, 2012 3:30 PM > To: "Drinks@ietf.org" > Subject: [drinks] Finishing the documents... (ad "case insensitivity") >=20 > All, > =20 > both our two remaining documents have completed WGLC since quite some = time, and the design team has addressed comments that came in during = WGLC in the last revisions of the document. > =20 > The only open issue as far as i=92m aware is around the = case-sensitivity of Object Key Types (Section 5.2). The original text in = -02 of the framework draft was: > =20 > "Name" attributes that are used as components of object key types > MUST be treated case insensitive. > =20 > One of the comments received during WGLC (by Andrew Sullivan) was that = this would need lots more detail in order to specify what =84case = insensitive=93 actually means. I took the ticket to come up with more = precise text in order to address this comment, and researched the = Unicode standard. My proposal that went into -03 of the document looked = like this: > =20 > "Name" attributes that are used as components of object key types > MUST be treated case insensitive, more specifically, comparison > operations MUST use the toNFKC_Casefold() function, as specified in > Section 3.13 of [reference to Unicode 6.1] > =20 > There were concerns within the design team that particularly the = introduction of NFKC operations into the framework could have = implications on implementations, and it was agreed that this issue would = be rehashed after -03 has been posted. Again, my ticket, i=92ve = continued to research Unicode documents, as well as tried to find out = what =84case insensitive=93 actually means in typical database systems = and programming languages. I don=92t think that reverting to the = original =84short=93 text solves the underlying problem. Therefore, my = proposal is to drop the NFKC operations part of the requirement above, = but still stick with a well defined Unicode Operation, namely the = Default Case Folding =84toCaseFold()=93. Proposed text is as follows: > =20 > "Name" attributes that are used as components of object key types > MUST be treated case insensitive, more specifically, comparison > operations MUST use the Unicode Default Case Folding toCasefold()=20= > operation, as specified in Section 3.13 of [reference to Unicode = 6.1] > =20 > I think that this fulfills the requirement of having a well-defined = meaning of =84case insensitive=93, avoids normalization logic which = could lead to unexpected matching of identifiers. I understand that the = toCaseFold() operation is a very basic Unicode operation, and hence = should be available in almost any implementation of Unicode. I would = appreciate if someone has detailed insight into the implementation = details in various languages, and specifically whether/which database = systems support such operations (Because of lack of publicly accessible = documents about the SQL Standard, i couldn=92t verify whether or not SQL = LOWER() etc. functions use Unicode operations, or something different). > =20 > Any comments about the proposal above? > =20 > Alex > =20 > _______________________________________________ > drinks mailing list > drinks@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/drinks --Apple-Mail=_57378D77-70A0-451F-ACB1-F6E29C052CCC Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252
I have no idea whether or not MySQL does = things like that, and I don't even know how to tell. = Internationalization was a bad idea -- we should have just stayed with = 7-bit ASCII and learned to spell our umlauts = phonetically.

--
Dean


On Jan 7, 2013, at 11:17 AM, Sumanth Channabasappa = <sumanth@cablelabs.com>= wrote:

Happy New Year, everyone! We went silent for a few weeks, but now = that the holidays are done :) =96 perhaps we can obtain comments and = finish this last item (?) from Alex (see below)?

Thanks!
- S

From: Alexander Mayrhofer <alexanderm@sbg.nic.at>
Date: Tuesday, December 11, 2012 = 3:30 PM
To: "Drinks@ietf.org" <Drinks@ietf.org>
Subject: [drinks] Finishing the = documents... (ad "case insensitivity")

All,
 
both = our two remaining documents have completed WGLC since quite some time, = and the design team has addressed comments that came in during WGLC in = the last revisions of the document.
 
The = only open issue as far as i=92m aware is around the case-sensitivity of = Object Key Types (Section 5.2). The original text in -02 of the = framework draft was:
 
   = "Name" attributes that are used as components of object key = types
   = MUST be treated case insensitive.
 
One = of the comments received during WGLC (by Andrew Sullivan) was that this = would need lots more detail in order to specify what =84case = insensitive=93 actually means. I took the ticket to come up with more = precise text in order to address this comment, and researched the Unicode standard. My proposal that = went into -03 of the document looked like this:
 
   "Name" attributes that are used as components of =
object key types
   MUST be treated case insensitive, more specifically, =
comparison
   operations MUST use the toNFKC_Casefold() function, as =
specified in
   Section 3.13 of [reference to Unicode =
6.1]
 
There were concerns within the design team that = particularly the introduction of NFKC operations into the framework = could have implications on implementations, and it was agreed that this = issue would be rehashed after -03 has been posted. Again, my ticket, i=92ve continued to research Unicode documents, as = well as tried to find out what =84case insensitive=93 actually means in = typical database systems and programming languages. I don=92t think that = reverting to the original =84short=93 text solves the underlying problem. Therefore, my proposal is to drop the NFKC = operations part of the requirement above, but still stick with a well = defined Unicode Operation, namely the Default Case Folding = =84toCaseFold()=93. Proposed text is as follows:
 
   "Name" attributes that are used as components of =
object key types
   MUST be treated case insensitive, more specifically, =
comparison
   operations MUST use the Unicode Default Case Folding =
toCasefold() 
   operation, as specified in Section 3.13 of [reference to Unicode =
6.1]
 
I think that this fulfills the requirement of having = a well-defined meaning of =84case insensitive=93, avoids normalization = logic which could lead to unexpected matching of identifiers. I = understand that the  toCaseFold() operation is a very basic Unicode operation, and hence  should be available in almost = any implementation of Unicode. I would appreciate if someone has = detailed insight into the implementation details in various languages, = and specifically whether/which database systems support such operations (Because of lack of publicly accessible documents about = the SQL Standard, i couldn=92t verify whether or not SQL LOWER() etc. = functions use Unicode operations, or something = different).
 
Any = comments about the proposal above?
 
Alex
 
_______________________________________________
drinks mailing = list
drinks@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.or= g/mailman/listinfo/drinks

= --Apple-Mail=_57378D77-70A0-451F-ACB1-F6E29C052CCC-- From alexander.mayrhofer@nic.at Wed Jan 30 23:39:36 2013 Return-Path: X-Original-To: drinks@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: drinks@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB20D21F86B7 for ; Wed, 30 Jan 2013 23:39:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.43 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.43 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_AT=0.424, HOST_EQ_AT=0.745, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gMKUTHoaRWZA for ; Wed, 30 Jan 2013 23:39:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.sbg.nic.at (mail.sbg.nic.at [83.136.33.227]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 038D221F8607 for ; Wed, 30 Jan 2013 23:39:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from nics-exch.sbg.nic.at ([10.17.175.3]) by mail.sbg.nic.at over TLS secured channel (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) with XWall v3.49 ; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 08:39:33 +0100 Received: from NICS-EXCH.sbg.nic.at ([fe80::486:1ecc:eabc:531e]) by NICS-EXCH.sbg.nic.at ([fe80::486:1ecc:eabc:531e%12]) with mapi id 14.02.0247.003; Thu, 31 Jan 2013 08:39:28 +0100 From: Alexander Mayrhofer To: "drinks@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Draft minutes of the DRINKS design team call 2013-01-30 Thread-Index: Ac3/hIpKaaL9o7mTQveomxZdU0bL1w== Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 07:39:27 +0000 Message-ID: <19F54F2956911544A32543B8A9BDE075097DE031@NICS-EXCH.sbg.nic.at> Accept-Language: de-DE, en-US Content-Language: de-DE X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [192.168.3.88] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-XWALL-BCKS: auto Cc: "drinks-chairs@tools.ietf.org" Subject: [drinks] Draft minutes of the DRINKS design team call 2013-01-30 X-BeenThere: drinks@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF DRINKS WG List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2013 07:39:37 -0000 DRINKS design team call DRAFT minutes Jan 30, 2013 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Participants --------------- - Syed Ali - Sumanth Channabasappa - Alex Mayrhofer - David Schwartz - Dean Willis ACTION ITEMS =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 1/ Alex to check with Vikas and Andrew whether the "toLowerCase()" text doe= s address their concerns 2/ Alex to check with Vikas whether there's an open update to the SOAP draf= t. Minutes ---------- Alex reminds the team of the last open issue, as described in=20 http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/drinks/current/msg01246.html Roadmap: When this issue is fixed, request publication for both documents. Dean has commented on the proposed solution, concerned that operations on e= g. database layer=20 might use different algorithms (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/drinks= /current/msg01248.html) Syed: We shouldn't assume certain technologies, not even assume a DB is bei= ng used. David: Case insensitivity is the correct way to go, otherwise it's ambigiou= s. Interopability is important David: New text looks heavyweight, why not use the original one? Alex: WGLC comment from Andrew, saying this is underspecified. David: Prefer shorter text, searches for such "simple" examples in other RF= Cs. Group would also be ok with the new proposed text, however, need to check w= ith Vikas and Andrew whether it addresses their concerns. Syed: What about the SOAP doc? Remember Vikas wanted to do an update? Alex will check with Vikas regarding the update. Call concludes.