From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Thu Nov 1 00:03:55 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA11799 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 00:03:54 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id AAA22427 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 00:03:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA21884; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 23:53:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA21853 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 23:53:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from sj-msg-core-3.cisco.com (sj-msg-core-3.cisco.com [171.70.157.152]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA10772 for ; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 23:53:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from sj-msg-av-1.cisco.com (sj-msg-av-1.cisco.com [171.69.11.130]) by sj-msg-core-3.cisco.com (8.11.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id fA14o5M06683; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 20:50:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailman.cisco.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sj-msg-av-1.cisco.com (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f9VIee411985; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 10:40:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from CHSHARP-W2K1.cisco.com (dhcp-64-102-95-147.cisco.com [64.102.95.147]) by mailman.cisco.com (8.9.3/CISCO.SERVER.1.2) with ESMTP id KAA13574; Wed, 31 Oct 2001 10:40:05 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20011031133643.0251ef18@dogwood.cisco.com> X-Sender: chsharp@dogwood.cisco.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 13:39:11 -0500 To: "Judith Oppenheimer" From: Chip Sharp Subject: RE: [Enum] Robert and Douglas' Protocols and Services draft... Cc: , , "'Michael Mealling'" In-Reply-To: <005301c16239$7d6f7940$1bad580c@att.net.icbtollfree.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org See Section 1.2.4 (first paragraph) and Section 6.4.3 of http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3160.txt Chip At 01:24 PM 10/31/2001, Judith Oppenheimer wrote: >What exactly is meant by "an IANA registry for both the protocols and >services"? > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- >---------- >Judith Oppenheimer >http://JudithOppenheimer.com >http://ICBTollFreeNews.com >212 684-7210, 1 800 The Expert >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- >---------- > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: enum-admin@ietf.org [mailto:enum-admin@ietf.org]On Behalf Of > > Robert H. Walter > > Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 12:46 PM > > To: enum@ietf.org > > Cc: Michael Mealling > > Subject: QRE: [Enum] Robert and Douglas' Protocols and > > Services draft... > > > > > > Hi Michael, > > > > Thank you for the feedback... Your suggestion of defining an IANA > > registry for both the protocols and services is excellent and we > > will incorporate this into the next revision of the draft. > > > > You raise an interesting point regarding the use of SIP with IM. > > Will the SIP extension(s) proposed in the SIMPLE working group I-D > > "SIP Extensions for Instant Messaging" (draft-ietf-simple-im-01.txt) > > be absorbed into SIP or will a new extended SIP protocol (e.g. simple) > > be born? If the latter is the case, I agree that it makes sense to > > specify SIMPLE as a resolution protocol. > > > > Regards, > > > > Bob > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: enum-admin@ietf.org [mailto:enum-admin@ietf.org]On Behalf Of > > > Michael Mealling > > > Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 8:43 AM > > > To: enum@ietf.org > > > Subject: [Enum] Robert and Douglas' Protocols and Services draft... > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > Being one of the people who pointed out the need for > > something like this > > > I think this is the exact right way of solving this > > problem. Good job > > > guys! I would make two small additions to the document: > > > > > > 1) Define an IANA registry for both the protocols and the > > services. You've > > > got the start of a template there, just add a field for > > the documents that > > > define the service and/or protocol and then add an IANA > > Considerations > > > section. > > > > > > 2) I think you should specify the protocols in terms of > > ENUM usage and not > > > leave them 'nakedly' defined. In the URI Resolution > > application it wasn't > > > possible to say "just use the http protocol" because > > there were so many > > > different ways of doing the URI resolution services. So > > we created > > > 'profiles' of different protocols that narrowed the > > protocol down enough > > > to make it interoperable for the specific Service you > > were attempting to do. > > > I think you're going to have to do that here simply > > because there's > > > probably about a 100 different ways to do IM like > > functions with SIP. > > > For example: in the case of IM and SIP the actual > > protocol used would be > > > SIMPLE and not SIP itself, right? Does that make sense? > > > > > > -MM > > > > > > -- > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------ > > > Michael Mealling | Vote Libertarian! | urn:pin:1 > > > michael@neonym.net | | >http://www.neonym.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > > enum mailing list > > enum@ietf.org > > http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum > >_______________________________________________ >enum mailing list >enum@ietf.org >http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum > > >_______________________________________________ >enum mailing list >enum@ietf.org >http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Thu Nov 1 00:22:41 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA11949 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 00:22:41 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id AAA23033 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 00:22:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA22664; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 00:12:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA22631 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 00:11:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from pimout3-int.prodigy.net (pimout3-ext.prodigy.net [207.115.63.102]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA11856 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 00:11:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc (dialup-65.56.132.162.Dial1.Chicago1.Level3.net [65.56.132.162]) by pimout3-int.prodigy.net (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id fA15Bbt66992; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 00:11:37 -0500 Message-ID: <006d01c16294$4dda0460$a2843841@pc> From: "Jim Fleming" To: "Bill Manning" , "Tony Rutkowski" Cc: "Bill Manning" , =?iso-8859-1?Q?Patrik_F=E4ltstr=F6m_?= , "David R. Conrad" , "Kevin McCandless" , , , "Bob Wienski" References: <200110312107.f9VL7wj24352@zed.isi.edu> Subject: Re: [Enum] ENUM interworking Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 23:16:01 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Manning" To: "Tony Rutkowski" Cc: "Bill Manning" ; "Patrik Fältström " ; "David R. Conrad" ; "Kevin McCandless" ; ; ; "Bob Wienski" Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 3:07 PM Subject: Re: [Enum] ENUM interworking > % > ideal than things which are not. I get the impression that > % > you might feel that an ideal construct would allow for > % > arbitrary fragmentation into administrative boundaries while > % > retaining the "external" appearance of a single construct. > % > Is this correct? > % > % Hi Bill, > % > % Rather than assuming the worse case situation of > % arbitrary fragmentation, why not consider coordinated, > % non-conflicting namespaces to allow for competition > % and provide for recovery in case of outages. > > Hum... again, chasing the ideal, > It would seem to me to be desirable to get the > coordination and non-conflicting agreements done > at the outset and then allow the relevent parties > to freely operate within the constructs that define > the namespace. Reducing the need to constantly revisit > coordination and to ensure that non-conflicting events > are the norm would lead to faster customer response, which state, > IMHO, is a characteristic of an ideal. > "freely operate within the constructs that define the namespace" It all boils down to fairness. Which list do you think is more fair ? The "toy" IPv4 Internet Early Experimentation Allocations ? http://www.iana.org/assignments/ipv4-address-space or The Proof-of-Concept IPv8 Allocations ? http://www.ntia.doc.gov/ntiahome/domainname/130dftmail/unir.txt Why would people pay for Address Space, when it is FREE ? Jim Fleming http://www.DOT-BIZ.com http://www.in-addr.info 3:219 INFO _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Thu Nov 1 00:32:21 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA13010 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 00:32:20 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id AAA23510 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 00:32:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA22995; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 00:22:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA22906 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 00:22:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from pimout3-int.prodigy.net (pimout3-ext.prodigy.net [207.115.63.102]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA11937 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 00:21:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc (dialup-65.56.132.162.Dial1.Chicago1.Level3.net [65.56.132.162]) by pimout3-int.prodigy.net (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id fA15Lbt177830; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 00:21:38 -0500 Message-ID: <00bd01c16295$b3285aa0$a2843841@pc> From: "Jim Fleming" To: "Judith Oppenheimer" , "Dave Crocker" Cc: References: <20011031152000.E12559@bailey.dscga.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20011031130712.03d0e130@dcrocker.net> Subject: Re: [Enum] Robert and Douglas' Protocols and Services draft... Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 23:26:02 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00BA_01C16263.67A2EE60" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00BA_01C16263.67A2EE60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Crocker" To: "Judith Oppenheimer" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 3:07 PM Subject: RE: [Enum] Robert and Douglas' Protocols and Services draft... > At 03:45 PM 10/31/2001 -0500, Judith Oppenheimer wrote: > >Got it ... just a quick reminder, IANA no longer exists. > > that news will come as a large surprise to the folks running > . > > d/ > > > ---------- > Dave Crocker > Brandenburg InternetWorking > tel +1.408.246.8253; fax +1.408.273.6464 > Who would those "folks" be ? 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mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Thu Nov 1 01:18:32 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA14702 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 01:18:32 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id BAA01471 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 01:18:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA28457; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 01:09:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA28416 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 01:08:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from pimout3-int.prodigy.net (pimout3-ext.prodigy.net [207.115.63.102]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA13691 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 01:08:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from pc (dialup-65.56.132.191.Dial1.Chicago1.Level3.net [65.56.132.191]) by pimout3-int.prodigy.net (8.11.0/8.11.0) with SMTP id fA168ut295044 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 01:08:56 -0500 Message-ID: <000f01c1629c$50b453e0$bf843841@pc> From: "Jim Fleming" To: Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 00:13:23 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Enum] Fw: Contract Between ICANN and the United States Government for Performance of the IANA Function Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Contract Between ICANN and the United States Government for Performance of the IANA Function > Contract Between ICANN and the United States Government for Performance of > the IANA Function > > http://www.icann.org/general/iana-contract-09feb00.htm > > The Contractor shall assign to this purchase order, the following key > personnel: > > 1. Michael M. Roberts > 2. Louis Touton > 3. Joyce K. Reynolds > 4. Suzanne Woolf > > For administrative information pertaining to this purchase order contact: > > Teresa A. Reefe > Contract Specialist > National Institute of Standards and Technology > Building 301, Room B117 > 100 Bureau Drive, Stop 3572 > Gaithersburg, Maryland 20899-0001 > Phone No. (301) 975-6364 > Teresa.reefe@nist.gov > > The Contracting Officer's Technical Representative pertaining to this > purchase order is: > > Karen Rose > U.S. Department of Commerce > 1401 Constitution Avenue, NW > Room 4701 > Washington, DC 20230 > (202) 482-1866 > > ----- > > > _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Thu Nov 1 02:04:35 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id CAA21933 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 02:04:35 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id CAA02713 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 02:04:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA02189; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 01:54:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA02159 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 01:54:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from idns.i-names.co.kr (idns.i-names.co.kr [202.30.50.99]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA19074 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 01:54:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from smlee ([203.255.209.3]) by idns.i-names.co.kr (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with SMTP id fA16rcY26383 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 15:53:38 +0900 (KST) Message-ID: <001001c162a2$43743dc0$03d1ffcb@inames.co.kr> From: =?ks_c_5601-1987?B?wMy9wrnO?= To: Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 15:55:59 +0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000B_01C162ED.B34B1CE0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Subject: [Enum] subscribe Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C162ED.B34B1CE0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000C_01C162ED.B34B1CE0" ------=_NextPart_001_000C_01C162ED.B34B1CE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ks_c_5601-1987" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- (ÁÖ)¾ÆÀ̳×ÀÓÁî(http://www.internetnames.co.kr) »ó¹«ÀÌ»ç À̽¹Î/°æ¿µ±âȹ½Ç E-mail : smlee@internetnames.co.kr Phone : +82-2-3486-7111 Fax : +82-2-3486-7333 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- ------=_NextPart_001_000C_01C162ED.B34B1CE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ks_c_5601-1987" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
(=C1=D6)=BE=C6=C0=CC=B3=D7=C0=D3=C1=EE(http://www.internetnames.co.kr)
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E-mail : smlee@internetnames.co.kr
Phone :=20 +82-2-3486-7111
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------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C162ED.B34B1CE0-- _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Thu Nov 1 07:14:37 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA11651 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 07:14:36 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id HAA27960 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 07:14:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id HAA27478; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 07:04:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id HAA27449 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 07:04:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from fallback.nextra.at (qsm1.nextra.at [195.170.70.44]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA11216 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 07:04:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from oefeg-mail.oefeg.at (mail.oefeg.at [194.118.12.224]) by fallback.nextra.at (8.9.3/8.9.3/nextra-qsm1) with ESMTP id NAA26533 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 13:04:19 +0100 (MET) X-nextra-qsm1-rcpt: Received: by OEFEG-MAIL with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 12:47:34 +0100 Message-ID: From: "Stastny, Richard" To: "'enum@ietf.org'" Subject: [Enum] e164.arpa: a technical or policy issue? Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 12:47:28 +0100 Importance: high X-Priority: 1 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org Dear Colleagues, especially Tony, If the attached (mail with attachment on hold for moderator) proposal from the German regulator to SG2 AENUM is accepted, it would end this discussion anyway, since it states, that E.164 numbers are protected by _COPYRIGHT_ and can only be used in the golden tree under ITU-T TSB supervision. No other domains using public E.164 numbers would be allowed. e.g. ref: 6.3 Telecommunication numbers as of recommendation E.164 are "sequences of characters which are used in telecommunication networks for purposes of addressing". These resources are arranged and transferred on the international level (Country Codes) by the ITU and in many countries sovereign by the national telecommunication laws. According to this definition there is no doubt that a telecommunication numbers remains recognized in copyright matters, when it is transferred in a Domain Name for instance according to the procedure as described in section 2 of RFC 2916. Both before and after the conversion of a E.164-Ressource by means of DNS it concerns a character sequence, which serves purposes of the addressing. It is also not missing the factual characteristic "in telecommunications networks" as independent of the transport technology used at least a part of the route of transportation will always be situated in a circuit switched telecommunication network. BTW, it is also not conforming to RFC2916, since it proposes to use an e164., where the ITU-TSB is the domain holder of the TLD. I fear, there is a big danger, that Tony is correct at least in his statement, that with ITU-T ENUM may never fly, or not in time with the market window. best regards Richard STASTNY OeFEG Arsenal Objekt 24 P.O. Box 147 A-1103 Vienna, Austria Tel: +43 664 420 4100 Fax: +43 1 79780 13 richard.stastny@oefeg.at richard@stastny.com -----Original Message----- From: Markus.Stoelzle@RegTP.DE [mailto:Markus.Stoelzle@RegTP.DE] Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 5:36 PM To: richard.hill@itu.int; m.muench@alcatel.de; eskil.elness@npt.no; tony.ar.holmes@bt.com; trevor.kent@bt.com; sverre-hugo.isaksen@telenor.com; stephen.engelman@wcom.com; barbara.rudnick@icn.siemens.de; gerd.wiedenhaupt@t-systems.de; grichena@telcordia.com; p.a.nooren@kpn.com; p.anderson@tri.sbc.com; cathy.handley@NeuStar.com; roy_blane@inmarsat.com; joakim.stralmark@pts.se; jessyzhang@btamail.net.cn; sdlind@att.com; alwyn.thomas@dti.gsi.gov.uk; hsilbiger@ieee.org; andrew.gallant@NeuStar.com; distler@art-telecom.fr; krose@ntia.doc.gov; gordonmr@state.gov; leafloor.bob@ic.gc.ca; lchoi@fcc.gov; gerd.grotelueschen@md2vodafone.de; markus.stoelzle@RegTP.DE; paul.rosbotham@cw.com; alain.doisneau@art-telecom.fr; philippe.fouquart@rd.francetelecom.com; klaus.sambor@jet2web.com; richard.stastny@oefeg.at; philip.m.rushton@bt.com; yuxiaoh@sina.com; shawj@ties.itu.ch Subject: Proposals for draft Rec. E.A-ENUM Importance: High Dear All, Enclosed please find the proposals of the German Administration to change the draft Recommendation E.A-ENUM for your collective consideration. Additionally please find our comments on the "Report of Q1/2 Rapporteurs Group, 04-14 September 2001, TD 1/2-63 Rev.3-E". Please take these comments into account in oder to be able to understand our comments on the draft Recommendation E.A-ENUM. We will be prepaired to explain our concerns at the next Rapporteurs meeting of Q1/2. Best Regards, Markus Stoelzle 2 Enclosures (contained in the annexed zip-file) <> --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dipl.-Ing. Markus Stoelzle Regulatory Authority for Telecommunications and Posts 426a Canisisustrasse 21 D-55122 Mainz Phone: +49-6131-18-22 49 Fax: +49-6131-18-56 05 E-Mail: Internet: http://www.regtp.de _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Thu Nov 1 07:57:17 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA13840 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 07:57:17 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id HAA29887 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 07:57:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id HAA29332; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 07:48:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id HAA29295 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 07:48:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from heron.verisign.com (heron.verisign.com [216.168.233.95]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA13253 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 07:48:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from VSVAPOSTALGW1.prod.netsol.com (vsvapostalgw1.prod.netsol.com [216.168.234.201]) by heron.verisign.com (nsi_0.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id HAA18704; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 07:45:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from arutkowski-lap.verisign.com (du95.netsol.com [216.168.245.95]) by VSVAPOSTALGW1.prod.netsol.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id 4VQ8L35B; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 07:44:37 -0500 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20011101073644.032f2998@vsvapostal1.prod.netsol.com> X-Sender: trutkowski@vsvapostal1.prod.netsol.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 07:45:29 -0500 To: "Stastny, Richard" , "'enum@ietf.org'" From: Tony Rutkowski Subject: Re: [Enum] e164.arpa: a technical or policy issue? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org Hi Richard, >6.3 Telecommunication numbers as of recommendation E.164 are "sequences of >characters which are used in telecommunication networks for purposes of >addressing". These resources are arranged and transferred on the >international level (Country Codes) by the ITU and in many countries >sovereign by the national telecommunication laws. According to this >definition there is no doubt that a telecommunication numbers remains >recognized in copyright matters, when it is transferred in a Domain Name Interesting find. The assertion of copyright over telephone numbers has been a long standing debate regarding which there are divergent views among different Administrations. At the recent SG2 meeting, France raised a similar issue. The U.S. among other countries, however, has generally rejected the assertion. The CEC is also likely to weigh into the matter among European countries. Maybe if the lookups are moved off port 53, no one will care. :-) --tony _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Thu Nov 1 09:07:43 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA13838 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 07:57:17 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id HAA29888 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 07:57:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id HAA29260; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 07:47:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id HAA29228 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 07:47:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from cisco.com (nordic.cisco.com [64.103.48.45]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA13201 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 07:47:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from [10.0.1.3] (ssh-ams1.cisco.com [144.254.74.55]) by cisco.com (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA08815; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 13:45:56 +0100 (MET) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 13:35:56 +0100 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Patrik_F=E4ltstr=F6m?= To: Jim Fleming , Tony Rutkowski , Judith Oppenheimer cc: enum@ietf.org, Scott Bradner , Allison Mankin Message-ID: <783840.1004621756@localhost> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.1.1 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Enum] Warning: Please cease inappropriate postings Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim, Tony, Judith, after having reviewed the multitude of email that you have sent to the ENUM list over the past week, we find that they are not about items part of the charter for the ENUM wg. Your postings are unprofessional, noninformative, inflammatory, and to a large degree (such as dealing with "multiple roots", "IANA doesn't exist", "ENUM is handled by private consortia, so this wg is irrelevant", "IETF is using the toy IPv4") unrelated to the work of the ENUM wg. You have established a pattern of such postings; when the previous outburst subsided earlier this year, many of us hoped that you had found reason to cease this inappropriate activity, but plainly, you have not. If this pattern continues your posting privileges will be removed as per the process described in RFC 3005 for the main IETF list. Patrik Faltstrom, Richard Shockey co-chairs ENUM Working Group, IETF _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Thu Nov 1 09:14:44 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA17928 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 09:14:44 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id JAA02052 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 09:14:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA01662; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 09:04:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA01631 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 09:04:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from heron.verisign.com (heron.verisign.com [216.168.233.95]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA17405 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 09:04:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from VSVAPOSTALGW1.prod.netsol.com (vsvapostalgw1.prod.netsol.com [216.168.234.201]) by heron.verisign.com (nsi_0.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA21210; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 09:03:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from arutkowski-lap.verisign.com (du95.netsol.com [216.168.245.95]) by VSVAPOSTALGW1.prod.netsol.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id 4VQ8LPYN; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 09:02:36 -0500 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20011101083806.033225e0@vsvapostal1.prod.netsol.com> X-Sender: trutkowski@vsvapostal1.prod.netsol.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 09:03:27 -0500 To: Patrik =?iso-8859-1?Q?F=E4ltstr=F6m?= From: Tony Rutkowski Cc: enum@ietf.org, Scott Bradner , Allison Mankin In-Reply-To: <783840.1004621756@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: [Enum] inappropriate postings Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org Hi Patrik, With all due respect, given the broad working group charter and the exploratory nature of the present activities that relate largely to administrative matters, it would be difficult to characterize any of the recent postings as inappropriate - except purely on the basis of personal preferences about the views being expressed - and a rather sensitive adverse reaction at that. Given the high level of external visibility and the regulatory and legal related issues, it diminishes the IETF's stature and increases its vulnerability to be seen as diminishing expression of alternative views. Furthermore, in examining the posting stats for the month of October (see below), the numbers of postings are not great - even for the co-chairs who accounted for 27% of all the postings. Let's try to be inclusive and tolerant here even for the most vexing postings we may personally not like. We can carry on this separately if you like with the IETF leadership. --tony abelyang@twnic.net.tw 1 bmanning@ISI.EDU 2 bwienski@Illuminet.com 3 chsharp@cisco.com 3 david.conrad@nominum.com 3 dhc@dcrocker.net 16 fengw@whale.cnnic.net.cn 1 froomkin@law.miami.edu 1 HSilbiger@aol.com 2 huitema@windows.microsoft.com 1 james.yu@NeuStar.com 3 jdrosen@dynamicsoft.com 6 Jim.Reid@nominum.com 3 jimfleming@prodigy.net 13 joppenheimer@icbtollfree.com 9 KMcCandless@Illuminet.com 8 LMessing@ctia.org 2 maynard@pobox.org.sg 1 michael@neonym.net 6 mjh@thetrendwatchers.com 1 namebook@yesky.com 1 nathan.nelson@cbeyond.net 1 paf@cisco.com 11 Paul.Rosbotham@cwcom.cwplc.com 1 ppfautz@att.com 2 ray@bango.net 6 rich.shockey@NeuStar.com/netcom 38 richard.stastny@oefeg.at 1 robert.freilich@wcom.com 1 Robert.Shaw@itu.int 2 rwalter@netnumber.com 5 shollenbeck@verisign.com 2 superseal@eircom.net 1 trutkowski@verisign.com 21 _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Thu Nov 1 09:30:23 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA18863 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 09:30:23 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id JAA02639 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 09:30:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA02166; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 09:20:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA02139 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 09:20:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from newdev.harvard.edu (newdev.eecs.harvard.edu [140.247.60.212]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA18242 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 09:20:47 -0500 (EST) Received: (from sob@localhost) by newdev.harvard.edu (8.10.2/8.10.2) id fA1EEvc09852; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 09:14:57 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 09:14:57 -0500 (EST) From: Scott Bradner Message-Id: <200111011414.fA1EEvc09852@newdev.harvard.edu> To: paf@cisco.com, trutkowski@verisign.com Cc: enum@ietf.org, mankin@isi.edu, sob@harvard.edu Subject: [Enum] Re: inappropriate postings Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org > We can carry on this separately if you like with the IETF leadership. Tony - fwiw - the AD for enum agrees with and approved the warning issued by the enum chairs. But you are quite welcome to follow the process defined in rfc 2026 if you feel that we are being unfair. I'm sure the IESG and IAB would give such an appeal all the consideration that it derserves. It is my opinion that many of your (and Jim's) recent postings have been purposefully inflammatory and unrelated to the charter of enum. If you feel that the important work on the enum technology is being done elsewhere then by all means go help them. (though I will admit to being confused on how some other group can define something on their own and call it enum unless they are trying to mislead) On the other hand, if you do actually want to discuss the IETF enum technology as defined in the RFC and in line with what is actually in the enum charter then please do so. Scott _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Thu Nov 1 10:31:42 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA21487 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 10:31:42 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id KAA05338 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 10:31:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA04609; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 10:20:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA04580 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 10:20:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from oak.neustar.com (oak.neustar.com [209.173.53.70]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA20945 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 10:20:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from rds.neustar.com (dmz1.va.neustar.com [209.173.53.65]) by oak.neustar.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id fA1FKd226772; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 10:20:39 -0500 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20011101094542.0330e740@127.0.0.1> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 10:12:10 -0500 To: Michael Mealling , enum@ietf.org From: Richard Shockey Subject: Re: [Enum] Re: What are we trying to do here .. and a reminder on what is RESCAP In-Reply-To: <20011031175333.L12559@bailey.dscga.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011031162654.02b1a170@127.0.0.1> <20011031084238.T12559@bailey.dscga.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20011031162654.02b1a170@127.0.0.1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org > > > 3. Specific applications need to have specific documents defining the > > protocol service fields and behaviors appropriate to those applications. > > (SIP - VPIM) and make the specific request to the IANA for inclusion. I > > have wanted to avoid this WG take on those tasks since it clearly more > > appropriate for SIPPING or other WG's define those documents. > >Right. This group just creates the registry and then specifies what >an item going into that registry has to specify in order to 'qualify'. >(See the IANA Considerations document on what kind of policies to >implement here: First Come First Served, IETF Concensus, etc). yes thank you ... this is very very important. We need a clear statement on what 'qualifies' for inclusion into the registry this is at the heart of part of the problem I see looming ... > > 4. That said the Walter/Ranalli drafts point out there are ambiguities in > > the role of various protocols such SMTP for voice mail vs SMTP for email > > that may need to be clarified and documented separately. but .....but > > > > I'd like to understand more about the problem statement that requires such > > a proliferation of service definitions in Walter/Ranalli since inherent in > > draft is desire to finely granulate the capabilities of end points in ways > > that I'm not sure NAPTR records were meant for. This begins to look a lot > > like RESCAP or some protocol to resolve capabilities of endpoints and that > > has been a problem in the IETF for a LONG LONG time and I'm not sure we > > want to go there. > > > > I just want to make sure we handle the process correctly and I'm open to > > suggestions on what is the best work plan. > >The solution set in the URI Resolution was essentially to define the >'protocol' part as not really a 'on the wire' protocol but instead >a profile of another for a specific purpose. Each 'profile' would have >to specify which Services it did and how. In ENUM's case there could >very well be two ways of doing SIP+VPIM. If two people decided that >both had good ways of doing it they would both write up a spec and >then register with the IANA. They both have to write up how they >handle each given Service. But at that point its a market decision about >which 'profile' gets used... I'd be delighted to hear your views on that ... but correct me if I'm not reading your message correctly ..your view is that registering a variety of profiles is a "good thing" and the market then decides which ones it wishes to use? but my worry is still what level of granularity in the profile should be permissible since I'm hoping that we do not use NAPTR records a substitute for RESCAP. I'm suggesting that taken to extreme this could cause confusion for client applications developers using NAPTR records since in the case of 8 different profiles for SMTP which would they use? NOTE TO THE LIST: Many of you may not be familiar with the RESCAP and the problem statement that it was intended to address. It has been a well known problem in the IETF for many many years now that it might be useful to identify the capabilities of endpoints in advance of creating a session. The problem is particularly acute in MIME attachments to SMTP. The Applications Area AD's Patrik and Ned and even Keith Moore before Ned have been trying to interest the Apps community in moving forward with a solution. The problem has been there is not a sufficiently committed group of folks ready to work the problem consistently and consequently it has languished. FYI from a old proposed charter..... Description of Working Group: Abstract: A variety of resource identifiers have been widely deployed on the Internet as a means of identifying various resources, services, and destinations. However, a means of attaching a set of attributes or characteristics to a given resource identifier and subsequently assessing those attributes or characteristics has not been specified and deployed. A particularly important resolution service of this general type is one which, when given a mail address identifying a particular mail recipient, will return a series of attributes describing the capabilities of that recipient. This differs from a directory service in that no searching or other advanced query operations are involved. The primary purpose of this service is to distribute information about resources or services to the global Internet; as such, it is not intended for dissemination of private information. However, the group will also consider whether there is a need for the query protocol to include authentication, and thus permit administrators to restrict the capabilities that are returned according to a locally specified security policy. The first task of this working group will be to define a general resolution protocol that will translate resource identifiers to a list of attributes. At a minimum the service must be capable of returning mail recipient capabilities as described above, but ideally the service should also handle more general capability and characteristics discovery. The second task of this working group will be to define an administrative model and update protocol that can be used to set up and maintain the information the resolution protocol accesses. This protocol will obviously require strong authentication. The working group will also consider whether privacy services are necessary for the update protocol, and include such services in the protocol if it finds that they are necessary. The service resulting from the combination of these two protocols must meet the following requirements: (0) The resolution protocol must be highly scalable, as the intent is to deploy it very widely. (1) Resolution protocol and server overhead must be very low, as some applications will make very heavy use of it. (2) Identifiers input to the resolution service must be formatted as Uniform Resource Identifiers (URIs) containing one or more DNS domains. Note that mail addresses can be presented as mailto: URIs to meet this requirement. (3) Facilities to support inheritance within the attribute store will be essential, as the number of identifiers may be very large. Specifically, mechanisms must be provided by which administrators can set default values for members of their administrative domains. (4) Existing protocols will be profiled for use as part of this service whenever possible rather than developing new protocols. In particular: (a) The DNS must be used as the first step in the resolution service, This is because all the URIs under consideration here contain a DNS domain and the DNS is already properly delegated. (b) Existing DNS record types such as SRV and NAPTR will be used if feasible, to ease deployment. (c) A lightweight resolution protocol may be defined by this working group if no existing protocol proves to be suitable. (d) An existing administrative model and maintenance protocol will be used if feasible. Possible candidates for this include ACAP and LDAPv3. The means to register and extend the set of attributes must be specified. However, specification of actual attributes needed by various applications of this service is outside of the scope of this working group. This group will collaborate with the ENUM working group to determine the degree to which it is appropriate for the two efforts to share technology or protocols when solving their respective problems. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Richard Shockey, Senior Manager, Strategic Technology Initiatives NeuStar Inc. 45980 Center Oak Plaza Bldg 8 Sterling, VA 20166 1120 Vermont Ave NW Suite 400 Washington DC 20005 Voice 571.434.5651 Cell : 314.503.0640, Fax: 815.333.1237 or <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Thu Nov 1 10:44:19 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA21884 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 10:44:14 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id KAA05903 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 10:44:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA05536; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 10:35:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA05433 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 10:35:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from bailey.dscga.com (bailey.dscga.com [198.78.9.11]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA21588 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 10:35:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from bailey.dscga.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bailey.dscga.com (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id fA1FVrlc021977; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 10:31:53 -0500 (EST) Received: (from michael@localhost) by bailey.dscga.com (8.12.1/8.12.1/Submit) id fA1FVqkq021976; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 10:31:52 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 10:31:52 -0500 From: Michael Mealling To: Richard Shockey Cc: Michael Mealling , enum@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Enum] Re: What are we trying to do here .. and a reminder on what is RESCAP Message-ID: <20011101103152.Q12559@bailey.dscga.com> Reply-To: Michael Mealling References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011031162654.02b1a170@127.0.0.1> <20011031084238.T12559@bailey.dscga.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20011031162654.02b1a170@127.0.0.1> <5.1.0.14.2.20011101094542.0330e740@127.0.0.1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011101094542.0330e740@127.0.0.1> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.22.1i Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org On Thu, Nov 01, 2001 at 10:12:10AM -0500, Richard Shockey wrote: > >> 4. That said the Walter/Ranalli drafts point out there are ambiguities > >in > >> the role of various protocols such SMTP for voice mail vs SMTP for email > >> that may need to be clarified and documented separately. but .....but > >> > >> I'd like to understand more about the problem statement that requires > >such > >> a proliferation of service definitions in Walter/Ranalli since inherent > >in > >> draft is desire to finely granulate the capabilities of end points in > >ways > >> that I'm not sure NAPTR records were meant for. This begins to look a > >lot > >> like RESCAP or some protocol to resolve capabilities of endpoints and > >that > >> has been a problem in the IETF for a LONG LONG time and I'm not sure we > >> want to go there. > >> > >> I just want to make sure we handle the process correctly and I'm open to > >> suggestions on what is the best work plan. > > > >The solution set in the URI Resolution was essentially to define the > >'protocol' part as not really a 'on the wire' protocol but instead > >a profile of another for a specific purpose. Each 'profile' would have > >to specify which Services it did and how. In ENUM's case there could > >very well be two ways of doing SIP+VPIM. If two people decided that > >both had good ways of doing it they would both write up a spec and > >then register with the IANA. They both have to write up how they > >handle each given Service. But at that point its a market decision about > >which 'profile' gets used... > > > I'd be delighted to hear your views on that ... but correct me if I'm not > reading your message correctly ..your view is that registering a variety of > profiles is a "good thing" and the market then decides which ones it wishes > to use? Yes and no. The registry and process should be open. But that doesn't mean this (or subsequent) groups just create the registry and then do nothing. There should be a concerted effort by those on this list to make sure that the items put into the registry are standardized, quality specs so there can be interoperability. But at the same time you should let others do the same thing. Hopefully the outcome is that we do a better job. > but my worry is still what level of granularity in the profile should be > permissible since I'm hoping that we do not use NAPTR records a substitute > for RESCAP. Correct. Any service/protocol tuple should only point to the entry point. My rule of thumb has always been: what is absolutely minimally required in order to start an on-the-wire protocol session where those finer grain features can be negotiated. > I'm suggesting that taken to extreme this could cause confusion for client > applications developers using NAPTR records since in the case of 8 > different profiles for SMTP which would they use? I think what you're after is a registration process that uses the "IETF Concensus" process instead of a "First Come First Served" process in order to make sure that service and protocols don't overlap to the point where its impossible to decide on which to use without sticking feature negotiation into the NAPTR record? > NOTE TO THE LIST: > > Many of you may not be familiar with the RESCAP and the problem statement > that it was intended to address. > > I've always though that RESCAP is a real fundamental requirement for ENUM to really scale beyond a single service. IMHO, the DDDS using NAPTR and RESCAP combination creates a very robust and scalable directory service that gives things like ENUM a ready made directory that can be easily deployed. Being the co-chair of RESCAP I'm biased. But if those here could take a look at the two current documents: http://search.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-moore-rescap-rc-01.txt http://search.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-moore-rescap-blob-00.txt -MM -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael Mealling | Vote Libertarian! | urn:pin:1 michael@neonym.net | | http://www.neonym.net _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Thu Nov 1 11:14:47 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA22711 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 11:14:47 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id LAA07103 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 11:14:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA06718; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 11:05:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA06686 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 11:05:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from joy.songbird.com (IDENT:root@songbird.com [208.184.79.7]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA22479 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 11:05:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from bbprime.dcrocker.net (c1193160-a.snvl1.sfba.home.com [65.0.152.112]) by joy.songbird.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA11954; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 08:05:51 -0800 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20011101075622.0d35ba50@dcrocker.net> X-Sender: dhc@brandenburg.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 08:05:22 -0800 To: Richard Shockey From: Dave Crocker Subject: Re: [Enum] Re: What are we trying to do here .. and a reminder on what is RESCAP Cc: enum@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011101094542.0330e740@127.0.0.1> References: <20011031175333.L12559@bailey.dscga.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20011031162654.02b1a170@127.0.0.1> <20011031084238.T12559@bailey.dscga.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20011031162654.02b1a170@127.0.0.1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org At 10:12 AM 11/1/2001 -0500, Richard Shockey wrote: >I'd be delighted to hear your views on that ... but correct me if I'm not >reading your message correctly ..your view is that registering a variety >of profiles is a "good thing" and the market then decides which ones it >wishes to use? > >but my worry is still what level of granularity in the profile should be >permissible since I'm hoping that we do not use NAPTR records a substitute >for RESCAP. Richard, et al, The reference to Rescap is usefully concrete and your concern highlights the potential for undisciplined excesses. (And those are so much worse than disciplined excesses...) Perhaps the key question is whether ENUM is for a single, specific purpose, such as routing telephone calls, or whether it is intended as a generalized mechanism for associating a range of information to a telephone number. My own assumption is that it should be for the latter, since I think the market will insist on this. However if the standards effort is only for telephone routing, our work is essentially done and Michael's interest is out of scope. Again, my own opinion is that we should indeed deal with he broader scope. That leaves us with two concerns. One is the potential for excesses that you raise. The other is that we might exceed our technical mandate and enter into policy making. A limiting force against the excesses is the standards process itself. Unless there is a broad consensus for a particular profile of ENUM parameters, they won't become a standard. The broad consensus should demonstrate broad need. To help keep these efforts constrained and to help curb the potential for policy-making, perhaps we should insist that each proposed profile must state clearly what technical function it is in aid of and how the proposed profile satisfies the requirement. d/ ---------- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking tel +1.408.246.8253; fax +1.408.273.6464 _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Thu Nov 1 11:44:17 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA23392 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 11:44:17 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id LAA08181 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 11:44:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA07868; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 11:35:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA07837 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 11:35:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from bailey.dscga.com (bailey.dscga.com [198.78.9.11]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA23193 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 11:35:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from bailey.dscga.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bailey.dscga.com (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id fA1GVblc022202; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 11:31:37 -0500 (EST) Received: (from michael@localhost) by bailey.dscga.com (8.12.1/8.12.1/Submit) id fA1GVarH022201; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 11:31:36 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 11:31:36 -0500 From: Michael Mealling To: Dave Crocker Cc: Richard Shockey , enum@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Enum] Re: What are we trying to do here .. and a reminder on what is RESCAP Message-ID: <20011101113136.B22089@bailey.dscga.com> Reply-To: Michael Mealling References: <20011031175333.L12559@bailey.dscga.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20011031162654.02b1a170@127.0.0.1> <20011031084238.T12559@bailey.dscga.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20011031162654.02b1a170@127.0.0.1> <5.1.0.14.2.20011101075622.0d35ba50@dcrocker.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011101075622.0d35ba50@dcrocker.net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.22.1i Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org On Thu, Nov 01, 2001 at 08:05:22AM -0800, Dave Crocker wrote: > At 10:12 AM 11/1/2001 -0500, Richard Shockey wrote: > >I'd be delighted to hear your views on that ... but correct me if I'm not > >reading your message correctly ..your view is that registering a variety > >of profiles is a "good thing" and the market then decides which ones it > >wishes to use? > > > >but my worry is still what level of granularity in the profile should be > >permissible since I'm hoping that we do not use NAPTR records a substitute > >for RESCAP. > > Richard, et al, > > or whether it is intended as a generalized > mechanism for associating a range of information to a telephone number. > > My own assumption is that it should be for the latter, since I think the > market will insist on this. However if the standards effort is only for > telephone routing, our work is essentially done and Michael's interest is > out of scope. Again, my own opinion is that we should indeed deal with he > broader scope. > > That leaves us with two concerns. One is the potential for excesses that > you raise. The other is that we might exceed our technical mandate and > enter into policy making. A limiting force against the excesses is the > standards process itself. Unless there is a broad consensus for a > particular profile of ENUM parameters, they won't become a standard. The > broad consensus should demonstrate broad need. > > To help keep these efforts constrained and to help curb the potential for > policy-making, perhaps we should insist that each proposed profile must > state clearly what technical function it is in aid of and how the proposed > profile satisfies the requirement. This was my intent as well. I don't think this group needs to actually do the work of specifying the profile. It does need to discuss and specify what an ENUM Protocol and Service are and create the process of registering them. But I think it should stop there or at the most do 1 and only 1 to illustrate the process. You're statement: 1) "each proposed profile must state clearly what technical function it is in aid of and how the proposed profile satisfies the requirement" in with my interpretation of Richard's concern about granularity 2) "two or more profile should not be so similar that an application can't decide on which to use without additional information in the NAPTR record pointing to them." It sounds like we're getting some idea of requirements that a protocol profile needs to evaluate before it can be 'accepted' by the IESG... -MM -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael Mealling | Vote Libertarian! | urn:pin:1 michael@neonym.net | | http://www.neonym.net _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Thu Nov 1 12:36:18 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA24787 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 12:36:18 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id MAA10371 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 12:36:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA09690; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 12:27:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA09659 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 12:27:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from hvmta02-stg.us.psimail.psi.net (hvmta02-ext.us.psimail.psi.net [38.202.36.30]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA24378 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 12:27:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from dranalli ([65.203.166.26]) by hvmta02-stg.us.psimail.psi.net (InterMail vM.4.01.02.17 201-229-119) with SMTP id <20011101172704.GBTT10406.hvmta02-stg.us.psimail.psi.net@dranalli>; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 12:27:04 -0500 Message-ID: <007101c162fa$6e49a230$1aa6cb41@netnumber.com> Reply-To: "Douglas Ranalli" From: "Douglas Ranalli" To: "Michael Mealling" Cc: References: <20011031175333.L12559@bailey.dscga.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20011031162654.02b1a170@127.0.0.1> <20011031084238.T12559@bailey.dscga.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20011031162654.02b1a170@127.0.0.1> <5.1.0.14.2.20011101075622.0d35ba50@dcrocker.net> <20011101113136.B22089@bailey.dscga.com> Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 12:27:07 -0500 Organization: NetNumber.com, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Enum] Next turn of Walter/Ranalli "Protocol & Services Draft" Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael, Dave, Richard, et al... Michael Mealling wrote: >This was my intent as well. I don't think this group needs to actually > do the work of specifying the profile. It does need to discuss and > specify what an ENUM Protocol and Service are and create the process > of registering them... Michael has done a nice job articulating that we need a well defined structure for specifying and advancing the list of "approved" ENUM resolution protocols and services. Bob and I will work over the next few days to incorporate this feedback into an updated version of the draft. The next version will provide a proposed baseline set of considerations for IANA to follow in the management and registration of ENUM resolution protocols and services. Doug Douglas Ranalli Founder & Chief Strategy Officer NetNumber, Inc. 650 Suffolks Street, Suite 307 Lowell, MA 01854 1-978-848-2830 dranalli@netnumber.com www.netnumber.com _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Thu Nov 1 13:08:38 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA25969 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 13:08:38 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id NAA11442 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 13:08:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA10715; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 12:59:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA10675 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 12:59:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from shell.nominum.com (shell.nominum.com [128.177.192.160]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA25766 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 12:59:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from drc-toshiba.nominum.com (shell.nominum.com [128.177.192.160]) by shell.nominum.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC69531923; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 09:59:14 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20011031194602.020e4cb0@localhost> X-Sender: drc@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 19:59:37 -0800 To: Tony Rutkowski , Kevin McCandless , "'enum@ietf.org'" From: "David R. Conrad" Subject: Re: [Enum] ENUM interworking Cc: "'lprabhala@verisign.com'" , Bob Wienski In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011031112924.02798540@vsvapostal1.prod.netsol .com> References: <5.0.2.1.2.20011031075151.03089c98@localhost> <1C1EEC765F843E44996971A80682118BBB8F9E@opwinex01.corp.illu minet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org At 11:41 AM 10/31/2001 -0500, Tony Rutkowski wrote: >What is your view about the use of DNAME? Give me some context. DNAME is interesting because it allows aliasing of trees, not just leaves like CNAME. However, I'm not sure I understand how this addresses any particularly pressing issue. >Aren't robustness and diminished vulnerability (especially >post 9-11) at least as important attributes as call completion >delay? I'd agree. >What ENUM architectures and attributes >increase or diminish "signalling" vulnerabilities? I figure multiple namespace would introduce a higher likelihood of data consistency failures without necessarily improving reliability or robustness. Regardless of architecture, the DNS (without DNSSEC) is fundamentally insecure. It is trivial (publicly available tools exist) to spoof name-to-(whatever) translations when you are on the path between the requestor and the server. It is significantly more difficult, albeit theoretically possible, if you are not on the path between the requestor and the server. This is probably not a feature. Rgds, -drc _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Thu Nov 1 13:08:43 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA25985 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 13:08:43 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id NAA11456 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 13:08:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA10744; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 12:59:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA10677 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 12:59:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from shell.nominum.com (shell.nominum.com [128.177.192.160]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA25767 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 12:59:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from drc-toshiba.nominum.com (shell.nominum.com [128.177.192.160]) by shell.nominum.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38AE131924; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 09:59:15 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <5.0.2.1.2.20011031195949.02122ac0@localhost> X-Sender: drc@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2 Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 20:00:20 -0800 To: "Pfautz, Penn L, NNAD" , Kevin McCandless , "'enum@ietf.org'" From: "David R. Conrad" Subject: RE: [Enum] ENUM interworking Cc: "'lprabhala@verisign.com'" , Bob Wienski In-Reply-To: <62DA45D4963FA747BA1B253E266760F91F9F44@OCCLUST04EVS1.ugd.a tt.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org Penn, At 11:27 AM 10/31/2001 -0500, Pfautz, Penn L, NNAD wrote: >PLP: The idea seemed to be that the e164.arpa Tier 1 would have a standard >NS record pointing to the alternate >registry. This would cause the query to be made to that registry with an >e164.arpa domain, i.e. .e164.arpa. Since >the presumption is that the alternate registry stores its NAPTR under a >proprietary domain, e.g. joesenum.com, there would be a CNAME record in >the alternate registry that would cause a new query to be done on >.joesenum.com. This is not intended to be as flippant as it sounds, but what problem are we trying to solve here? Can you point me to a document that is describing the architecture in which using CNAMEs would be appropriate? Tnx, -drc _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Thu Nov 1 13:26:35 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA26562 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 13:26:35 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id NAA11935 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 13:26:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA11726; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 13:18:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA11697 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 13:17:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from mtiwmhc21.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc21.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.46]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA26274 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 13:17:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from z000679 ([12.77.125.44]) by mtiwmhc21.worldnet.att.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20011101181727.UMOE29594.mtiwmhc21.worldnet.att.net@z000679>; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 18:17:27 +0000 Reply-To: From: "Mark Harris" To: "Stastny, Richard" , Subject: RE: [Enum] e164.arpa: a technical or policy issue? Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 13:39:49 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Importance: Normal In-reply-to: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Richard and All: >that E.164 numbers are protected by _COPYRIGHT_ Would that mean that if I was given a telephone number (as a subscriber), I would not be "allowed" to give it to others to put into various other directories? Kind of defeats the purpose of a telephone number... Regards, Mark -----Original Message----- From: enum-admin@ietf.org [mailto:enum-admin@ietf.org]On Behalf Of Stastny, Richard Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 6:47 AM To: 'enum@ietf.org' Subject: [Enum] e164.arpa: a technical or policy issue? Importance: High Dear Colleagues, especially Tony, If the attached (mail with attachment on hold for moderator) proposal from the German regulator to SG2 AENUM is accepted, it would end this discussion anyway, since it states, that E.164 numbers are protected by _COPYRIGHT_ and can only be used in the golden tree under ITU-T TSB supervision. No other domains using public E.164 numbers would be allowed. e.g. ref: 6.3 Telecommunication numbers as of recommendation E.164 are "sequences of characters which are used in telecommunication networks for purposes of addressing". These resources are arranged and transferred on the international level (Country Codes) by the ITU and in many countries sovereign by the national telecommunication laws. According to this definition there is no doubt that a telecommunication numbers remains recognized in copyright matters, when it is transferred in a Domain Name for instance according to the procedure as described in section 2 of RFC 2916. Both before and after the conversion of a E.164-Ressource by means of DNS it concerns a character sequence, which serves purposes of the addressing. It is also not missing the factual characteristic "in telecommunications networks" as independent of the transport technology used at least a part of the route of transportation will always be situated in a circuit switched telecommunication network. BTW, it is also not conforming to RFC2916, since it proposes to use an e164., where the ITU-TSB is the domain holder of the TLD. I fear, there is a big danger, that Tony is correct at least in his statement, that with ITU-T ENUM may never fly, or not in time with the market window. best regards Richard STASTNY OeFEG Arsenal Objekt 24 P.O. Box 147 A-1103 Vienna, Austria Tel: +43 664 420 4100 Fax: +43 1 79780 13 richard.stastny@oefeg.at richard@stastny.com -----Original Message----- From: Markus.Stoelzle@RegTP.DE [mailto:Markus.Stoelzle@RegTP.DE] Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 5:36 PM To: richard.hill@itu.int; m.muench@alcatel.de; eskil.elness@npt.no; tony.ar.holmes@bt.com; trevor.kent@bt.com; sverre-hugo.isaksen@telenor.com; stephen.engelman@wcom.com; barbara.rudnick@icn.siemens.de; gerd.wiedenhaupt@t-systems.de; grichena@telcordia.com; p.a.nooren@kpn.com; p.anderson@tri.sbc.com; cathy.handley@NeuStar.com; roy_blane@inmarsat.com; joakim.stralmark@pts.se; jessyzhang@btamail.net.cn; sdlind@att.com; alwyn.thomas@dti.gsi.gov.uk; hsilbiger@ieee.org; andrew.gallant@NeuStar.com; distler@art-telecom.fr; krose@ntia.doc.gov; gordonmr@state.gov; leafloor.bob@ic.gc.ca; lchoi@fcc.gov; gerd.grotelueschen@md2vodafone.de; markus.stoelzle@RegTP.DE; paul.rosbotham@cw.com; alain.doisneau@art-telecom.fr; philippe.fouquart@rd.francetelecom.com; klaus.sambor@jet2web.com; richard.stastny@oefeg.at; philip.m.rushton@bt.com; yuxiaoh@sina.com; shawj@ties.itu.ch Subject: Proposals for draft Rec. E.A-ENUM Importance: High Dear All, Enclosed please find the proposals of the German Administration to change the draft Recommendation E.A-ENUM for your collective consideration. Additionally please find our comments on the "Report of Q1/2 Rapporteurs Group, 04-14 September 2001, TD 1/2-63 Rev.3-E". Please take these comments into account in oder to be able to understand our comments on the draft Recommendation E.A-ENUM. We will be prepaired to explain our concerns at the next Rapporteurs meeting of Q1/2. Best Regards, Markus Stoelzle 2 Enclosures (contained in the annexed zip-file) <> --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dipl.-Ing. Markus Stoelzle Regulatory Authority for Telecommunications and Posts 426a Canisisustrasse 21 D-55122 Mainz Phone: +49-6131-18-22 49 Fax: +49-6131-18-56 05 E-Mail: Internet: http://www.regtp.de _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Thu Nov 1 13:43:06 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA27175 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 13:43:04 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id NAA12605 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 13:43:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA12375; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 13:34:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA12344 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 13:34:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from rcommail2 (outgoing2.jrcy.register.com [209.67.50.16]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA26835 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 13:34:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from [10.10.25.57] (helo=JORDYN.register.com) by rcommail2 with esmtp (Exim 3.16 #2) id 15zMeU-0003hK-00; Thu, 01 Nov 2001 13:33:18 -0500 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20011101132703.023fb438@mail.register.com> X-Sender: jbuchanan@mail.register.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 13:35:13 -0500 To: "David R. Conrad" , "Pfautz, Penn L, NNAD" , Kevin McCandless , "'enum@ietf.org'" From: "Jordyn A. Buchanan" Subject: RE: [Enum] ENUM interworking Cc: "'lprabhala@verisign.com'" , Bob Wienski In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.2.20011031195949.02122ac0@localhost> References: <62DA45D4963FA747BA1B253E266760F91F9F44@OCCLUST04EVS1.ugd.a tt.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org At 08:00 PM 10/31/2001 -0800, David R. Conrad wrote: >This is not intended to be as flippant as it sounds, but what problem are >we trying to solve here? Can you point me to a document that is >describing the architecture in which using CNAMEs would be appropriate? The problem trying to be solved is that some records may be stored under a different domain name. For example, the owner of +1.212.555.1212 might wish to store their NAPTR records at 2.1.2.1.5.5.5.2.1.2.1.example.ie, but still wishes the name to resolve using the "golden tree" and a lookup under e164.arpa. CNAMEs were suggested as a way to accomplish this. If your question is, "why would someone want to do that instead of just delegating within the same domain using NS records?" then I have no idea. Jordyn _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Thu Nov 1 14:33:50 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA28436 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 14:33:49 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id OAA14206 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 14:33:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA13594; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 14:21:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA13565 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 14:21:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.48]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA28175 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 14:21:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from z000679 ([12.77.125.44]) by mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20011101192116.LTVU5495.mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net@z000679>; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 19:21:16 +0000 Reply-To: From: "Mark Harris" To: "Jordyn A. Buchanan" , "David R. Conrad" , "Pfautz, Penn L, NNAD" , "Kevin McCandless" , Cc: , "Bob Wienski" Subject: RE: [Enum] ENUM interworking Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 14:43:41 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Importance: Normal In-reply-to: <5.1.0.14.0.20011101132703.023fb438@mail.register.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Jordyn... >For example, the owner of +1.212.555.1212 Your example is perfect. "555.1212" is a directory assistance number. If I dial 555.1212, I will almost certainly need to be routed differently than you will, even in the same area code, especially if we have different TSP carriers. "Multiple places, One Telephone #" That is one of many reasons for ENUM needing to be multiple domains, outside of the Golden tree. Other reasons are listed in Appendix 1 of the SGA Adhoc on ENUM Report... Regards, Mark www.EnumNIC.net www.EnumForums.org -----Original Message----- From: enum-admin@ietf.org [mailto:enum-admin@ietf.org]On Behalf Of Jordyn A. Buchanan Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 1:35 PM To: David R. Conrad; Pfautz, Penn L, NNAD; Kevin McCandless; 'enum@ietf.org' Cc: 'lprabhala@verisign.com'; Bob Wienski Subject: RE: [Enum] ENUM interworking At 08:00 PM 10/31/2001 -0800, David R. Conrad wrote: >This is not intended to be as flippant as it sounds, but what problem are >we trying to solve here? Can you point me to a document that is >describing the architecture in which using CNAMEs would be appropriate? The problem trying to be solved is that some records may be stored under a different domain name. For example, the owner of +1.212.555.1212 might wish to store their NAPTR records at 2.1.2.1.5.5.5.2.1.2.1.example.ie, but still wishes the name to resolve using the "golden tree" and a lookup under e164.arpa. CNAMEs were suggested as a way to accomplish this. If your question is, "why would someone want to do that instead of just delegating within the same domain using NS records?" then I have no idea. Jordyn _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Thu Nov 1 15:00:49 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA28893 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 15:00:49 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id PAA15126 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 15:00:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA14425; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 14:52:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA14395 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 14:51:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from tnt.isi.edu (tnt.isi.edu [128.9.128.128]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA28728 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 14:51:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from zed.isi.edu (zed.isi.edu [128.9.160.57]) by tnt.isi.edu (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id fA1Jp0g23783; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 11:51:00 -0800 (PST) From: Bill Manning Received: (from bmanning@localhost) by zed.isi.edu (8.11.0/8.8.6) id fA1Jp0d25365; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 11:51:00 -0800 Message-Id: <200111011951.fA1Jp0d25365@zed.isi.edu> Subject: Re: [Enum] ENUM interworking To: mjh@thetrendwatchers.com Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 11:51:00 -0800 (PST) Cc: jordyn@register.com (Jordyn A. Buchanan), david.conrad@nominum.com (David R. Conrad), ppfautz@att.com (Pfautz Penn L NNAD), KMcCandless@illuminet.com (Kevin McCandless), enum@ietf.org, lprabhala@verisign.com, bwienski@illuminet.com (Bob Wienski) In-Reply-To: from "Mark Harris" at Nov 01, 2001 02:43:41 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL3] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit % % Hi Jordyn... % % >For example, the owner of +1.212.555.1212 % % Your example is perfect. "555.1212" is a directory assistance number. If I % dial 555.1212, I will almost certainly need to be routed differently than % you will, even in the same area code, especially if we have different TSP me thinks you have made at least one assumption here. please bear with me. I think that it is true that there is only one "delegation" at 2.1.2.1.5.5.5.2.1.2.1.e164.arpa. there may be several totally sad poodles (TSP) that wish to provide answers for an unqualified request made to: 2.1.2.1.5.5.5 and it seems that you do not believe this can be done. if that is to be supported, based on the "credentials" supplied by the requestor, this can be done within the existing DNS, retaining the single delegation point. Some of the techniques are simple to implement, some are more "feature-rich" and such techniques are not constrained to a single implementation. but you might mean something else, and if so, I am sorry for the distraction. --bill _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Thu Nov 1 15:05:59 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA29006 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 15:05:59 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id PAA15374 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 15:06:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA14663; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 14:57:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA14632 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 14:57:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from oak.neustar.com (oak.neustar.com [209.173.53.70]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA28822 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 14:57:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from rds.neustar.com (dmz1.va.neustar.com [209.173.53.65]) by oak.neustar.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id fA1JsV232143; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 14:54:55 -0500 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20011101145210.02e0b630@127.0.0.1> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 14:53:37 -0500 To: , "Stastny, Richard" , From: Richard Shockey Subject: RE: [Enum] e164.arpa: a technical or policy issue? In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org At 01:39 PM 11/1/2001 -0500, Mark Harris wrote: >Hello Richard and All: > > >that E.164 numbers are protected by _COPYRIGHT_ > >Would that mean that if I was given a telephone number (as a subscriber), >I would not be "allowed" to give it to others to put into various other >directories? > >Kind of defeats the purpose of a telephone number... I've asked Richard Stastny to send me the document so I can have it made available as a URL .. then you can read it and judge for yourself..... >Regards, >Mark >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Richard Shockey, Senior Manager, Strategic Technology Initiatives NeuStar Inc. 45980 Center Oak Plaza Bldg 8 Sterling, VA 20166 1120 Vermont Ave NW Suite 400 Washington DC 20005 Voice 571.434.5651 Cell : 314.503.0640, Fax: 815.333.1237 or <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Thu Nov 1 15:22:05 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA29415 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 15:22:05 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id PAA15898 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 15:22:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA15585; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 15:13:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA15554 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 15:13:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from mtiwmhc21.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc21.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.46]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA29198 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 15:13:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from z000679 ([12.77.125.44]) by mtiwmhc21.worldnet.att.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20011101201240.WMUN29594.mtiwmhc21.worldnet.att.net@z000679>; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 20:12:40 +0000 Reply-To: From: "Mark Harris" To: "Bill Manning" , Cc: "Jordyn A. Buchanan" , "David R. Conrad" , "Pfautz Penn L NNAD" , "Kevin McCandless" , , , "Bob Wienski" Subject: RE: [Enum] ENUM interworking Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 15:34:47 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Importance: Normal In-reply-to: <200111011951.fA1Jp0d25365@zed.isi.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bill: The challenge lies with the fact that multiple entities (as part of an assignee group) have rights to use the telephone number 1.212.555.1212, and therefore, multiple entities would have rights to use... 2.1.2.1.5.5.5.2.1.2.1.e164.arpa Therefore, to eliminate the problem; a framework for dealing with this issue is to have the user go to a domain operated by their network provider.... 2.1.2.1.5.5.5.2.1.2.1.e164.isp.com (for example) This number would provide, in this case, directory assistance related service to the user. However, if the user always goes to the domain of their network, and... If the user puts in a different telephone number... 7.5.5.8.8.7.6.0.4.5.1.e164.isp.com (my phone number) and let's suppose the number is registered in... 7.5.5.8.8.7.6.0.4.5.1.e164.arpa What is the easiest way for the request to be routed to "e164.arpa" from "e164.isp.com" What record would work the best... DNAME, CNAME, a Redirect URI in the NAPTR, or something else? Regards, Mark -----Original Message----- From: Bill Manning [mailto:bmanning@ISI.EDU] Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 2:51 PM To: mjh@TheTrendWatchers.com Cc: Jordyn A. Buchanan; David R. Conrad; Pfautz Penn L NNAD; Kevin McCandless; enum@ietf.org; lprabhala@verisign.com; Bob Wienski Subject: Re: [Enum] ENUM interworking % % Hi Jordyn... % % >For example, the owner of +1.212.555.1212 % % Your example is perfect. "555.1212" is a directory assistance number. If I % dial 555.1212, I will almost certainly need to be routed differently than % you will, even in the same area code, especially if we have different TSP me thinks you have made at least one assumption here. please bear with me. I think that it is true that there is only one "delegation" at 2.1.2.1.5.5.5.2.1.2.1.e164.arpa. there may be several totally sad poodles (TSP) that wish to provide answers for an unqualified request made to: 2.1.2.1.5.5.5 and it seems that you do not believe this can be done. if that is to be supported, based on the "credentials" supplied by the requestor, this can be done within the existing DNS, retaining the single delegation point. Some of the techniques are simple to implement, some are more "feature-rich" and such techniques are not constrained to a single implementation. but you might mean something else, and if so, I am sorry for the distraction. --bill _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Thu Nov 1 15:45:38 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA29941 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 15:45:38 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id PAA16593 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 15:45:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA16432; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 15:36:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA16401 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 15:36:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from joy.songbird.com (IDENT:root@songbird.com [208.184.79.7]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA29693 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 15:36:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from bbprime.dcrocker.net (c1193160-a.snvl1.sfba.home.com [65.0.152.112]) by joy.songbird.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA22395; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 12:36:06 -0800 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20011101123230.0d3adc78@dcrocker.net> X-Sender: dhc@brandenburg.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 12:34:57 -0800 To: From: Dave Crocker Subject: RE: [Enum] ENUM interworking Cc: "Bill Manning" , , "Jordyn A. Buchanan" , "David R. Conrad" , "Pfautz Penn L NNAD" , "Kevin McCandless" , , , "Bob Wienski" In-Reply-To: References: <200111011951.fA1Jp0d25365@zed.isi.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org At 03:34 PM 11/1/2001 -0500, Mark Harris wrote: >Therefore, to eliminate the problem; a framework for dealing with this issue >is to have the user go to a domain operated by their network provider.... They may (and will) have multiple network providers, not just one. So, the real requirement is that the assignment of the DNS name (enum string) must be coordinated with the assignment of the PSTN string. This does not require that the DNS name operation be by the entity assigning the PSTN string. It requires that they collaborate. Because there will be entries under the DNS name for services that are offered by competitors to the entity assigning the PSTN string, there is a very strong argument for ensuring that the DNS registry be an independent third party. d/ ---------- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking tel +1.408.246.8253; fax +1.408.273.6464 _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Thu Nov 1 15:54:25 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA00192 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 15:54:25 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id PAA16868 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 15:54:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA16634; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 15:45:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA16605 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 15:45:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from tnt.isi.edu (tnt.isi.edu [128.9.128.128]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA29956 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 15:45:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from zed.isi.edu (zed.isi.edu [128.9.160.57]) by tnt.isi.edu (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id fA1Kjfg18171; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 12:45:41 -0800 (PST) From: Bill Manning Received: (from bmanning@localhost) by zed.isi.edu (8.11.0/8.8.6) id fA1KjfC25402; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 12:45:41 -0800 Message-Id: <200111012045.fA1KjfC25402@zed.isi.edu> Subject: Re: [Enum] ENUM interworking To: mjh@thetrendwatchers.com Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 12:45:40 -0800 (PST) Cc: bmanning@ISI.EDU (Bill Manning), jordyn@register.com (Jordyn A. Buchanan), david.conrad@nominum.com (David R. Conrad), ppfautz@att.com (Pfautz Penn L NNAD), KMcCandless@illuminet.com (Kevin McCandless), enum@ietf.org, lprabhala@verisign.com, bwienski@illuminet.com (Bob Wienski) In-Reply-To: from "Mark Harris" at Nov 01, 2001 03:34:47 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL3] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ah... (and he did err, not knowing the DNS). so you anticipate each enduser configuring their own search list? I would have thought that it would be desirable to just take advantage the normal DNS techniques. Why not let the holder of the delegation encode the forwarding rules to "punt" the request to the appropriate network provider? To clarify, the DNS admin for a delegation point encodes forwarding rules to the various service providers. So you have one delegation point and multiple parties being able to respond to queries, based on the offered "credentials" of the querier? Fits the current DNS model, is easy to deploy, and reduces the need to have the enduser building configurations. And it has the added advantage of separating the DNS admin function from the service provider function. :) I think this does -exactly- what you have described, while allowing the DNS to retain its coherency. Or am I still off in the weeds? % % Hi Bill: % % The challenge lies with the fact that multiple entities (as part of an % assignee group) have rights to use the telephone number 1.212.555.1212, and % therefore, multiple entities would have rights to use... % % 2.1.2.1.5.5.5.2.1.2.1.e164.arpa % % Therefore, to eliminate the problem; a framework for dealing with this issue % is to have the user go to a domain operated by their network provider.... % % 2.1.2.1.5.5.5.2.1.2.1.e164.isp.com (for example) % % This number would provide, in this case, directory assistance related % service to the user. However, if the user always goes to the domain of % their network, and... % % If the user puts in a different telephone number... % % 7.5.5.8.8.7.6.0.4.5.1.e164.isp.com (my phone number) % % and let's suppose the number is registered in... % % 7.5.5.8.8.7.6.0.4.5.1.e164.arpa % % What is the easiest way for the request to be routed to "e164.arpa" from % "e164.isp.com" % % What record would work the best... DNAME, CNAME, a Redirect URI in the % NAPTR, or something else? % % Regards, % Mark % % % % -----Original Message----- % From: Bill Manning [mailto:bmanning@ISI.EDU] % Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 2:51 PM % To: mjh@TheTrendWatchers.com % Cc: Jordyn A. Buchanan; David R. Conrad; Pfautz Penn L NNAD; Kevin % McCandless; enum@ietf.org; lprabhala@verisign.com; Bob Wienski % Subject: Re: [Enum] ENUM interworking % % % % % % Hi Jordyn... % % % % >For example, the owner of +1.212.555.1212 % % % % Your example is perfect. "555.1212" is a directory assistance number. If % I % % dial 555.1212, I will almost certainly need to be routed differently than % % you will, even in the same area code, especially if we have different TSP % % me thinks you have made at least one assumption here. % please bear with me. I think that it is true that % there is only one "delegation" at 2.1.2.1.5.5.5.2.1.2.1.e164.arpa. % % there may be several totally sad poodles (TSP) that wish to % provide answers for an unqualified request made to: % 2.1.2.1.5.5.5 % and it seems that you do not believe this can be done. % % if that is to be supported, based on the "credentials" supplied % by the requestor, this can be done within the existing DNS, % retaining the single delegation point. Some of the techniques % are simple to implement, some are more "feature-rich" and % such techniques are not constrained to a single implementation. % % but you might mean something else, and if so, I am sorry for % the distraction. % % --bill % -- --bill _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Thu Nov 1 16:13:52 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA00620 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 16:13:52 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id QAA17620 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 16:13:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA17457; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 16:04:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA17426 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 16:04:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from joy.songbird.com (IDENT:root@songbird.com [208.184.79.7]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA00461 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 16:04:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from bbprime.dcrocker.net (c1193160-a.snvl1.sfba.home.com [65.0.152.112]) by joy.songbird.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA23467; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 13:03:33 -0800 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20011101130311.0d4201d8@dcrocker.net> X-Sender: dhc@brandenburg.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 13:03:35 -0800 To: From: Dave Crocker Subject: RE: [Enum] ENUM interworking Cc: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org At 04:10 PM 11/1/2001 -0500, Mark Harris wrote: > >It requires that they collaborate. > >I'm not sure... I'll rephrase: Assignment of the PSTN number and assignment of the same number within ENUM must be coordinated. If they are not coordinated, they will diverge. And THAT will mean that the number is used by different entities. And THAT will be very bad, indeed. d/ ---------- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking tel +1.408.246.8253; fax +1.408.273.6464 _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Thu Nov 1 16:28:30 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA01045 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 16:28:30 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id QAA18144 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 16:28:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA17787; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 16:19:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA17684 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 16:19:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from mtiwmhc24.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc24.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.49]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA00795 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 16:19:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from z000679 ([12.77.125.44]) by mtiwmhc24.worldnet.att.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20011101211834.QQMR19017.mtiwmhc24.worldnet.att.net@z000679>; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 21:18:34 +0000 Reply-To: From: "Mark Harris" To: "Bill Manning" Cc: "Jordyn A. Buchanan" , "David R. Conrad" , Subject: RE: [Enum] ENUM interworking Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 16:40:57 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Importance: Normal In-reply-to: <200111012045.fA1KjfC25402@zed.isi.edu> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Bill: Sounds Great. (you're not in the weeds) :-) We'll will have to explore the various methods (and issues) in this "punting" process. (credentials, encoding, forwarding, etc.) Thanks for the input. Regards, Mark www.EnumNIC.net www.EnumForums.org -----Original Message----- From: Bill Manning [mailto:bmanning@ISI.EDU] Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 3:46 PM To: mjh@thetrendwatchers.com Cc: Bill Manning; Jordyn A. Buchanan; David R. Conrad; Pfautz Penn L NNAD; Kevin McCandless; enum@ietf.org; lprabhala@verisign.com; Bob Wienski Subject: Re: [Enum] ENUM interworking ah... (and he did err, not knowing the DNS). so you anticipate each enduser configuring their own search list? I would have thought that it would be desirable to just take advantage the normal DNS techniques. Why not let the holder of the delegation encode the forwarding rules to "punt" the request to the appropriate network provider? To clarify, the DNS admin for a delegation point encodes forwarding rules to the various service providers. So you have one delegation point and multiple parties being able to respond to queries, based on the offered "credentials" of the querier? Fits the current DNS model, is easy to deploy, and reduces the need to have the enduser building configurations. And it has the added advantage of separating the DNS admin function from the service provider function. :) I think this does -exactly- what you have described, while allowing the DNS to retain its coherency. Or am I still off in the weeds? % % Hi Bill: % % The challenge lies with the fact that multiple entities (as part of an % assignee group) have rights to use the telephone number 1.212.555.1212, and % therefore, multiple entities would have rights to use... % % 2.1.2.1.5.5.5.2.1.2.1.e164.arpa % % Therefore, to eliminate the problem; a framework for dealing with this issue % is to have the user go to a domain operated by their network provider.... % % 2.1.2.1.5.5.5.2.1.2.1.e164.isp.com (for example) % % This number would provide, in this case, directory assistance related % service to the user. However, if the user always goes to the domain of % their network, and... % % If the user puts in a different telephone number... % % 7.5.5.8.8.7.6.0.4.5.1.e164.isp.com (my phone number) % % and let's suppose the number is registered in... % % 7.5.5.8.8.7.6.0.4.5.1.e164.arpa % % What is the easiest way for the request to be routed to "e164.arpa" from % "e164.isp.com" % % What record would work the best... DNAME, CNAME, a Redirect URI in the % NAPTR, or something else? % % Regards, % Mark % % % % -----Original Message----- % From: Bill Manning [mailto:bmanning@ISI.EDU] % Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 2:51 PM % To: mjh@TheTrendWatchers.com % Cc: Jordyn A. Buchanan; David R. Conrad; Pfautz Penn L NNAD; Kevin % McCandless; enum@ietf.org; lprabhala@verisign.com; Bob Wienski % Subject: Re: [Enum] ENUM interworking % % % % % % Hi Jordyn... % % % % >For example, the owner of +1.212.555.1212 % % % % Your example is perfect. "555.1212" is a directory assistance number. If % I % % dial 555.1212, I will almost certainly need to be routed differently than % % you will, even in the same area code, especially if we have different TSP % % me thinks you have made at least one assumption here. % please bear with me. I think that it is true that % there is only one "delegation" at 2.1.2.1.5.5.5.2.1.2.1.e164.arpa. % % there may be several totally sad poodles (TSP) that wish to % provide answers for an unqualified request made to: % 2.1.2.1.5.5.5 % and it seems that you do not believe this can be done. % % if that is to be supported, based on the "credentials" supplied % by the requestor, this can be done within the existing DNS, % retaining the single delegation point. Some of the techniques % are simple to implement, some are more "feature-rich" and % such techniques are not constrained to a single implementation. % % but you might mean something else, and if so, I am sorry for % the distraction. % % --bill % -- --bill _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Thu Nov 1 16:36:33 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA01235 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 16:36:33 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id QAA18670 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 16:36:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA18107; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 16:27:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA18080 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 16:27:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.48]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA00999 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 16:27:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from z000679 ([12.77.125.44]) by mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20011101212655.NYIT5495.mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net@z000679> for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 21:26:55 +0000 Reply-To: From: "Mark Harris" To: Subject: FW: [Enum] ENUM interworking Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 16:49:18 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >If they are not coordinated, they will diverge. And THAT will >mean that the number is used by different entities. And THAT will be very >bad, indeed. Agreed. ...The ENUM subscriber must be the assignee of the telephone number. Regards, Mark www.EnumNIC.net www.EnumForums.org -----Original Message----- From: Dave Crocker [mailto:dhc@dcrocker.net] Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 3:59 PM To: mjh@TheTrendWatchers.com Cc: mjh@TheTrendWatchers.com; Bill Manning; mjh@TheTrendWatchers.com; Jordyn A. Buchanan; David R. Conrad; Pfautz Penn L NNAD; Kevin McCandless; enum@ietf.org; lprabhala@verisign.com; Bob Wienski Subject: RE: [Enum] ENUM interworking At 04:10 PM 11/1/2001 -0500, Mark Harris wrote: > >It requires that they collaborate. > >I'm not sure... I'll rephrase: Assignment of the PSTN number and assignment of the same number within ENUM must be coordinated. If they are not coordinated, they will diverge. And THAT will mean that the number is used by different entities. And THAT will be very bad, indeed. d/ ---------- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking tel +1.408.246.8253; fax +1.408.273.6464 _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Thu Nov 1 17:03:59 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA01716 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 17:03:59 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id RAA19614 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 17:04:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA18973; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 16:54:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA18942 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 16:54:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from rainier.illuminet.com ([63.116.20.100]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA01497 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 16:54:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from olwinexsmtp01.corp.illuminet.com (olwinexsmtp01.corp.illuminet.com [172.20.1.9]) by rainier.illuminet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA02874; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 13:52:57 -0800 (PST) Received: by olwinexsmtp01.corp.illuminet.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 13:52:57 -0800 Message-ID: <1C1EEC765F843E44996971A80682118BBB8FC7@opwinex01.corp.illuminet.com> From: Kevin McCandless To: "'rich.shockey@neustar.com'" Cc: "'enum@ietf.org'" , "'enumf-gen@enumf.org'" Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 13:52:47 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C1631F.8B110910" Subject: [Enum] drafts you pointed out Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C1631F.8B110910 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Rich: I spent some time reviewing the drafts you shared with the ENUM list. It is not clear how any of these address what valid NAPTR records are. NetNumber's "ENUM Resolution Protocols and Services" document does attempt to address this question but definitely needs more work; especially in light of Jonathan's comments. It would appear that ENUM working group is not stepping on other working groups toes by addressing this issue and actually brings in input from the other working groups. In terms of a meeting, we will have at least one draft to discuss plus some valued scope issues. The ENUM Forum is working on a informational draft on our efforts today and are interested in sharing that in Salt Lake. drafts reviewed from the list you sent out: draft-ietf-urn-uri-res-ddds-05.txt draft-ietf-urn-ddds-05.txt draft-ietf-urn-ddds-toc-00.txt draft-ietf-vpim-address-02.txt draft-ietf-vpim-routing-02.txt Kevin McCandless Senior Network Planner Illuminet 913-814-6397 kmccandless@illuminet.com ------_=_NextPart_001_01C1631F.8B110910 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Rich:
 
I spent some time reviewing the drafts you shared with the ENUM list.  It is not clear how any of these address what valid NAPTR records are.  NetNumber's "ENUM Resolution Protocols and Services" document does attempt to address this question but definitely needs more work; especially in light of Jonathan's comments.   It would appear that ENUM working group is not stepping on other working groups toes by addressing this issue and actually brings in input from the other working groups. 
 
In terms of a meeting, we will have at least one draft to discuss plus some valued scope issues.  The ENUM Forum is working on a informational draft on our efforts today and are interested in sharing that in Salt Lake.
 
drafts reviewed from the list you sent out:
draft-ietf-urn-uri-res-ddds-05.txt
draft-ietf-urn-ddds-05.txt
draft-ietf-urn-ddds-toc-00.txt
draft-ietf-vpim-address-02.txt
draft-ietf-vpim-routing-02.txt

Kevin McCandless
Senior Network Planner
Illuminet
913-814-6397
kmccandless@illuminet.com

 
------_=_NextPart_001_01C1631F.8B110910-- _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Thu Nov 1 17:15:38 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA01907 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 17:15:38 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id RAA19878 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 17:15:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA19681; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 17:06:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA19652 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 17:05:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from mtiwmhc26.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc26.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.51]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA01785 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 17:05:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from z000679 ([12.77.125.44]) by mtiwmhc26.worldnet.att.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20011101220528.OLKM4964.mtiwmhc26.worldnet.att.net@z000679>; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 22:05:28 +0000 Reply-To: From: "Mark Harris" To: "Pfautz, Penn L, NNAD" , , "Jordyn A. Buchanan" , "David R. Conrad" , "Kevin McCandless" , Cc: , "Bob Wienski" Subject: RE: [Enum] ENUM interworking Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 17:27:52 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Importance: Normal In-reply-to: <62DA45D4963FA747BA1B253E266760F91FA91B@OCCLUST04EVS1.ugd.att.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Penn: >The problem with 555 numbers is a different one than that which prompted the >discussion of CNAME in the ENUM Forum Interworking Group. This is a very >special kind of number and not one that should be driving ENUM >implementation. I agree. It just happen to be another example of how using multiple domains could be used to solve some ENUM issues. It was a little tangent...sorry. >To respond to Dave's earlier question [sorry- I was away from e-mail for a >while and the thread seems to have moved on], the issue in interworking was >how a registry that choose to store NAPTR records in a domain other than >e164.arpa, for its own business reasons, could still have a pointer to its >DNS in the e164.arpa Tier 1. >This approach was being explored in the spirit of trying to be see what can >be done to interwork with other trees without changing the fundamental >approach in RFC2916 which is the focus of the Forum. Sounds good. >I'd appreciate any >feedback on what issues this might raise or alternatives. Because the >pointers would be on a number by number basis rather than for blocks CNAME, >rather than DNAME was the focus. We'll do our best. We're still processing the pros and cons of the different approaches for interworking... Regards, Mark www.EnumNIC.net www.EnumForums.org -----Original Message----- From: Pfautz, Penn L, NNAD [mailto:ppfautz@att.com] Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 4:52 PM To: mjh@thetrendwatchers.com; Jordyn A. Buchanan; David R. Conrad; Kevin McCandless; enum@ietf.org Cc: lprabhala@verisign.com; Bob Wienski Subject: RE: [Enum] ENUM interworking Mark: The problem with 555 numbers is a different one than that which prompted the discussion of CNAME in the ENUM Forum Interworking Group. This is a very special kind of number and not one that should be driving ENUM implementation. To respond to Dave's earlier question [sorry- I was away from e-mail for a while and the thread seems to have moved on], the issue in interworking was how a registry that choose to store NAPTR records in a domain other than e164.arpa, for its own business reasons, could still have a pointer to its DNS in the e164.arpa Tier 1. This approach was being explored in the spirit of trying to be see what can be done to interwork with other trees without changing the fundamental approach in RFC2916 which is the focus of the Forum. I'd appreciate any feedback on what issues this might raise or alternatives. Because the pointers would be on a number by number basis rather than for blocks CNAME, rather than DNAME was the focus. Thanks, Penn -----Original Message----- From: Mark Harris [mailto:mjh@TheTrendWatchers.com] Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 2:44 PM To: Jordyn A. Buchanan; David R. Conrad; Pfautz, Penn L, NNAD; Kevin McCandless; enum@ietf.org Cc: lprabhala@verisign.com; Bob Wienski Subject: RE: [Enum] ENUM interworking Hi Jordyn... >For example, the owner of +1.212.555.1212 Your example is perfect. "555.1212" is a directory assistance number. If I dial 555.1212, I will almost certainly need to be routed differently than you will, even in the same area code, especially if we have different TSP carriers. "Multiple places, One Telephone #" That is one of many reasons for ENUM needing to be multiple domains, outside of the Golden tree. Other reasons are listed in Appendix 1 of the SGA Adhoc on ENUM Report... Regards, Mark www.EnumNIC.net www.EnumForums.org -----Original Message----- From: enum-admin@ietf.org [mailto:enum-admin@ietf.org]On Behalf Of Jordyn A. Buchanan Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 1:35 PM To: David R. Conrad; Pfautz, Penn L, NNAD; Kevin McCandless; 'enum@ietf.org' Cc: 'lprabhala@verisign.com'; Bob Wienski Subject: RE: [Enum] ENUM interworking At 08:00 PM 10/31/2001 -0800, David R. Conrad wrote: >This is not intended to be as flippant as it sounds, but what problem are >we trying to solve here? Can you point me to a document that is >describing the architecture in which using CNAMEs would be appropriate? The problem trying to be solved is that some records may be stored under a different domain name. For example, the owner of +1.212.555.1212 might wish to store their NAPTR records at 2.1.2.1.5.5.5.2.1.2.1.example.ie, but still wishes the name to resolve using the "golden tree" and a lookup under e164.arpa. CNAMEs were suggested as a way to accomplish this. If your question is, "why would someone want to do that instead of just delegating within the same domain using NS records?" then I have no idea. Jordyn _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Thu Nov 1 17:28:04 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA02100 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 17:28:03 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id RAA20245 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 17:28:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA19990; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 17:19:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA19960 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 17:19:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail2.microsoft.com (mail2.microsoft.com [131.107.3.124]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA01967 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 17:19:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from INET-VRS-02.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.8.110]) by mail2.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.2966); Thu, 1 Nov 2001 13:56:45 -0800 Received: from 157.54.8.23 by INET-VRS-02.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall NT); Thu, 01 Nov 2001 13:56:44 -0800 Received: from red-imc-02.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.9.107]) by inet-hub-01.redmond.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.2966); Thu, 1 Nov 2001 13:56:42 -0800 Received: from win-imc-02.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([157.54.0.84]) by red-imc-02.redmond.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.2966); Thu, 1 Nov 2001 13:56:42 -0800 Received: from win-msg-02.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([157.54.0.134]) by win-imc-02.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3562.0); Thu, 1 Nov 2001 13:55:57 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6063.0 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Subject: RE: [Enum] ENUM interworking Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 13:55:56 -0800 Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Enum] ENUM interworking thread-index: AcFjAEeTH1Q2XmVtSpmK/D3n1cg/0gAHsYxw From: "Christian Huitema" To: "David R. Conrad" , "Tony Rutkowski" , "Kevin McCandless" , Cc: , "Bob Wienski" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Nov 2001 21:55:57.0191 (UTC) FILETIME=[FC58F970:01C1631F] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by optimus.ietf.org id RAA19961 Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > >What is your view about the use of DNAME? > > Give me some context. DNAME is interesting because it allows aliasing > of > trees, not just leaves like CNAME. However, I'm not sure I understand > how > this addresses any particularly pressing issue. When I proposed using DNAME about 2 years ago, I was concerned with the handling of internal directories inside organization domains, in which my extension "1234" would map to something like 4.3.2.1.local-numbers.example.com There are many possible uses of such trees in internal telephony gateways inside a corporation. DNAME could be use to establish "tree mapping" between the "golden tree" and these subtrees. There have been two arguments against this proposal. First, if you are doing a product designed for used within an organization, you will probably use another solution for mapping numbers, e.g. an internal LDAP directory; even if you used ENUM, the primary storage of the information would still usually be some form of directory, so the benefits or avoiding replication are limited. Second, you could just as well use NS records pointing from a main tree to the local organization server, with possibly better caching characteristics. I am kind of swayed by these arguments. -- Christian Huitema _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Thu Nov 1 18:05:52 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA02532 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 18:05:51 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id SAA21413 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 18:05:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA20807; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 17:56:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA20776 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 17:56:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from oak.neustar.com (oak.neustar.com [209.173.53.70]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA02410 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 17:56:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from rds.neustar.com (dmz1.va.neustar.com [209.173.53.65]) by oak.neustar.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id fA1MtA203173; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 17:55:49 -0500 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20011101174228.02a3ca70@127.0.0.1> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 17:53:38 -0500 To: Kevin McCandless From: Richard Shockey Subject: Re: [Enum] drafts you pointed out Cc: "'enum@ietf.org'" , "'enumf-gen@enumf.org'" In-Reply-To: <1C1EEC765F843E44996971A80682118BBB8FC7@opwinex01.corp.illu minet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_12999495==_.ALT" Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org --=====================_12999495==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 01:52 PM 11/1/2001 -0800, Kevin McCandless wrote: >Rich: > >I spent some time reviewing the drafts you shared with the ENUM list. It >is not clear how any of these address what valid NAPTR records are. It defines NAPTR records we have to define what valid protocol+service are appropriate for ENUM > NetNumber's "ENUM Resolution Protocols and Services" document does > attempt to address this question but definitely needs more work; > especially in light of Jonathan's comments. It would appear that ENUM > working group is not stepping on other working groups toes by addressing > this issue and actually brings in input from the other working groups. dont get me wrong I thing Ranalli/Walter ENUM RPS is a fine contribution TKS guys !! ... its creating exactly the right type of discussion on a real technical issue that needs to be fixed now. > >In terms of a meeting, we will have at least one draft to discuss plus >some valued scope issues. The ENUM Forum is working on a informational >draft on our efforts today and are interested in sharing that in Salt Lake. Put it out as an ID ASAP .... !! Well my personal opinion is that it is premature to have a formal ENUM WG meeting during the general IETF in SLC because... A. revised charter has not been approved by the IESG B. we have only one document to discuss and ID closing is Nov 9 and real discussion on it has just only started C. getting meeting rooms at this late date might be tough IMHO it makes more sense to have several working items and wait for a face to face in Minneapolis I know you would like to meet but I haven't heard any more voices about clamoring about this.... but WG chair hat off for a moment I hum no. WG hat on ..... if there is real consensus we have to meet ... then time is really really short and I'd have to see some agenda items etc ... > >drafts reviewed from the list you sent out: >draft-ietf-urn-uri-res-ddds-05.txt >draft-ietf-urn-ddds-05.txt >draft-ietf-urn-ddds-toc-00.txt >draft-ietf-vpim-address-02.txt >draft-ietf-vpim-routing-02.txt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Richard Shockey, Senior Manager, Strategic Technology Initiatives NeuStar Inc. 45980 Center Oak Plaza Bldg 8 Sterling, VA 20166 1120 Vermont Ave NW Suite 400 Washington DC 20005 Voice 571.434.5651 Cell : 314.503.0640, Fax: 815.333.1237 or <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< --=====================_12999495==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" At 01:52 PM 11/1/2001 -0800, Kevin McCandless wrote:
Rich:
 
I spent some time reviewing the drafts you shared with the ENUM list.  It is not clear how any of these address what valid NAPTR records are.

It defines NAPTR records we have to define what valid protocol+service are appropriate for ENUM

 NetNumber's "ENUM Resolution Protocols and Services" document does attempt to address this question but definitely needs more work; especially in light of Jonathan's comments.   It would appear that ENUM working group is not stepping on other working groups toes by addressing this issue and actually brings in input from the other working groups. 

dont get me wrong I thing Ranalli/Walter  ENUM RPS is a fine contribution TKS guys !! ... its creating exactly the right type of discussion on a real technical issue that needs to be fixed now.

 
In terms of a meeting, we will have at least one draft to discuss plus some valued scope issues.  The ENUM Forum is working on a informational draft on our efforts today and are interested in sharing that in Salt Lake.

Put it out as an ID ASAP .... !! 


Well my personal opinion is that it is premature to have a formal ENUM WG meeting during the general IETF in SLC because...

A. revised charter has not been approved by the IESG

B. we have only one document to discuss and ID closing is Nov 9 and real discussion on it has just only started

C. getting meeting rooms at this late date might be tough

IMHO it makes more sense to have several working items and wait for a face to face in Minneapolis

I know you would like to meet but I haven't heard any more voices about clamoring about this.... but WG chair hat off for a moment I hum no.

WG hat on ..... if there is real consensus we have to meet ... then time is really really short and I'd have to see some agenda items etc ...

 
drafts reviewed from the list you sent out:
draft-ietf-urn-uri-res-ddds-05.txt
draft-ietf-urn-ddds-05.txt
draft-ietf-urn-ddds-toc-00.txt
draft-ietf-vpim-address-02.txt
draft-ietf-vpim-routing-02.txt


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Richard Shockey, Senior Manager, Strategic Technology Initiatives
NeuStar Inc.
45980 Center Oak Plaza   Bldg 8     Sterling, VA  20166
1120 Vermont Ave NW Suite 400 Washington DC 20005
Voice 571.434.5651 Cell : 314.503.0640,  Fax: 815.333.1237
<mailto: rshockey@ix.netcom.com> or
<mailto: rich.shockey@neustar.com>
<http://www.neustar.com>
<http://www.enum.org>
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
--=====================_12999495==_.ALT-- _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Thu Nov 1 19:34:19 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA03851 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 19:34:19 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id TAA23858 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 19:34:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA23302; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 19:25:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA23273 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 19:25:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from kcmso1.proxy.att.com (kcmso1.att.com [192.128.133.69]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA03721 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 19:25:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from njb140r1.ems.att.com ([135.65.202.58]) by kcmso1.proxy.att.com (AT&T IPNS/MSO-3.0) with ESMTP id fA1Lr5Y27898; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 16:53:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from njb140bh1.ems.att.com by njb140r1.ems.att.com (8.8.8+Sun/ATTEMS-1.4.1 sol2) id QAA07225; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 16:51:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by njb140bh1.ems.att.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 16:53:04 -0500 Message-ID: <62DA45D4963FA747BA1B253E266760F91FA91B@OCCLUST04EVS1.ugd.att.com> From: "Pfautz, Penn L, NNAD" To: mjh@thetrendwatchers.com, "Jordyn A. Buchanan" , "David R. Conrad" , Kevin McCandless , enum@ietf.org Cc: lprabhala@verisign.com, Bob Wienski Subject: RE: [Enum] ENUM interworking Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 16:51:47 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org Mark: The problem with 555 numbers is a different one than that which prompted the discussion of CNAME in the ENUM Forum Interworking Group. This is a very special kind of number and not one that should be driving ENUM implementation. To respond to Dave's earlier question [sorry- I was away from e-mail for a while and the thread seems to have moved on], the issue in interworking was how a registry that choose to store NAPTR records in a domain other than e164.arpa, for its own business reasons, could still have a pointer to its DNS in the e164.arpa Tier 1. This approach was being explored in the spirit of trying to be see what can be done to interwork with other trees without changing the fundamental approach in RFC2916 which is the focus of the Forum. I'd appreciate any feedback on what issues this might raise or alternatives. Because the pointers would be on a number by number basis rather than for blocks CNAME, rather than DNAME was the focus. Thanks, Penn -----Original Message----- From: Mark Harris [mailto:mjh@TheTrendWatchers.com] Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 2:44 PM To: Jordyn A. Buchanan; David R. Conrad; Pfautz, Penn L, NNAD; Kevin McCandless; enum@ietf.org Cc: lprabhala@verisign.com; Bob Wienski Subject: RE: [Enum] ENUM interworking Hi Jordyn... >For example, the owner of +1.212.555.1212 Your example is perfect. "555.1212" is a directory assistance number. If I dial 555.1212, I will almost certainly need to be routed differently than you will, even in the same area code, especially if we have different TSP carriers. "Multiple places, One Telephone #" That is one of many reasons for ENUM needing to be multiple domains, outside of the Golden tree. Other reasons are listed in Appendix 1 of the SGA Adhoc on ENUM Report... Regards, Mark www.EnumNIC.net www.EnumForums.org -----Original Message----- From: enum-admin@ietf.org [mailto:enum-admin@ietf.org]On Behalf Of Jordyn A. Buchanan Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 1:35 PM To: David R. Conrad; Pfautz, Penn L, NNAD; Kevin McCandless; 'enum@ietf.org' Cc: 'lprabhala@verisign.com'; Bob Wienski Subject: RE: [Enum] ENUM interworking At 08:00 PM 10/31/2001 -0800, David R. Conrad wrote: >This is not intended to be as flippant as it sounds, but what problem are >we trying to solve here? Can you point me to a document that is >describing the architecture in which using CNAMEs would be appropriate? The problem trying to be solved is that some records may be stored under a different domain name. For example, the owner of +1.212.555.1212 might wish to store their NAPTR records at 2.1.2.1.5.5.5.2.1.2.1.example.ie, but still wishes the name to resolve using the "golden tree" and a lookup under e164.arpa. CNAMEs were suggested as a way to accomplish this. If your question is, "why would someone want to do that instead of just delegating within the same domain using NS records?" then I have no idea. Jordyn _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Thu Nov 1 20:47:34 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA05675 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 20:47:34 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id UAA25292 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 20:47:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA25071; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 20:36:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA25043 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 20:36:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from joy.songbird.com (IDENT:root@songbird.com [208.184.79.7]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA05336 for ; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 20:36:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from bbprime.dcrocker.net (c1193160-a.snvl1.sfba.home.com [65.0.152.112]) by joy.songbird.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA32233; Thu, 1 Nov 2001 17:36:44 -0800 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20011101172836.0d490770@dcrocker.net> X-Sender: dhc@brandenburg.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 17:36:45 -0800 To: "Pfautz, Penn L, NNAD" From: Dave Crocker Subject: RE: [Enum] ENUM interworking Cc: enum@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <62DA45D4963FA747BA1B253E266760F91FA91B@OCCLUST04EVS1.ugd.a tt.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org At 04:51 PM 11/1/2001 -0500, Pfautz, Penn L, NNAD wrote: >the issue in interworking was >how a registry that choose to store NAPTR records in a domain other than >e164.arpa, for its own business reasons, could still have a pointer to its >DNS in the e164.arpa Tier 1. >This approach was being explored in the spirit of trying to be see what can >be done to interwork with other trees without changing the fundamental >approach in RFC2916 which is the focus of the Forum 1. The fundamental approach in 2916 is a single hierarchy, not a single hierarchy with lots of parallel hierarchies. 2. People working outside a standard are free to do anything they want. They only problem is when they claim to be part of the standard. 3. People building one standard that incorporates another standard need to document and validate that standard, in whatever way they find useful. They need to realize that they are creating a new and different standard. In earlier days, it was always amusing to see products that claimed to be "based on" Internet standards. The phrase "based on" was code language for "this product is proprietary and does not interwork". 4. The key point got onr standard that uses another -- and makes any effort to elaborate on the first standard -- is the question of coherence. Does the second work have any possibility of diverging from the first? In the world of TLD Domain Names, incorporating the ICANN namespace but then creating additional TLDs guarantees a problem when ICANN later assign a new TLD. It is certain that eventually they will create one that the second effort had already been using. The problem here is with the independent action by the second group, not the "encroachment" by ICANN. The same issue is true for any similar effort. Such an effort needs to senure that it does not seed its work with trojan horses. d/ ---------- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking tel +1.408.246.8253; fax +1.408.273.6464 _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Fri Nov 2 01:36:10 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA15598 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 01:36:10 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id BAA07819 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 01:36:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA07273; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 01:24:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA07244 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 01:24:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from cisco.com (nordic.cisco.com [64.103.48.45]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id BAA14027 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 01:24:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (ssh-ams1.cisco.com [144.254.74.55]) by cisco.com (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA09242; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 07:24:05 +0100 (MET) Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 07:16:43 +0100 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Patrik_F=E4ltstr=F6m?= To: "Jordyn A. Buchanan" , "David R. Conrad" , "Pfautz, Penn L, NNAD" , Kevin McCandless , "'enum@ietf.org'" cc: "'lprabhala@verisign.com'" , Bob Wienski Subject: RE: [Enum] ENUM interworking Message-ID: <2249046.1004685403@localhost> In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011101132703.023fb438@mail.register.com> References: <62DA45D4963FA747BA1B253E266760F91F9F44@OCCLUST04EVS1.ugd.a tt.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20011101132703.023fb438@mail.register.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.1.1 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --On 2001-11-01 13.35 -0500 "Jordyn A. Buchanan" wrote: > The problem trying to be solved is that some records may be stored under > a different domain name. For example, the owner of +1.212.555.1212 might > wish to store their NAPTR records at 2.1.2.1.5.5.5.2.1.2.1.example.ie, > but still wishes the name to resolve using the "golden tree" and a lookup > under e164.arpa. CNAMEs were suggested as a way to accomplish this. > > If your question is, "why would someone want to do that instead of just > delegating within the same domain using NS records?" then I have no idea. I would propose two major proposals for how to solve this problem: (a) Using CNAME: Add to some zone the following record: 2.1.2.1.5.5.5.2.1.2.1.e164.arpa. IN CNAME 2.1.2.1.5.5.5.2.1.2.1.example.ie. and to the correct zone at example.ie: 2.1.2.1.5.5.5.2.1.2.1.example.ie. IN NAPTR .... (b) Using NS records: Add to some zone the following record: 2.1.2.1.5.5.5.2.1.2.1.e164.arpa. IN NS ns.example.ie. and a zone to the ns.example.ie server which looks like 2.1.2.1.5.5.5.2.1.2.1.example.ie. IN SOA .... 2.1.2.1.5.5.5.2.1.2.1.example.ie. IN NS ns.example.ie. 2.1.2.1.5.5.5.2.1.2.1.example.ie. IN NAPTR .... Note that in example (b) the ns.example.ie. nameserver need to have one zone per number it takes care of, while in example (a) it can have more than one number in each zone. Which one of these two proposals is the easiest I don't know. There are pros and cons with both. If noone objects, I would like to declare these two ways of referencing the leaf node in an ENUM context as the "preferred ones". BUT, I also see that we have other proposals, and one is DNAME. I don't see any exciting new things with DNAME which make things easier than (a) or (b) above. And, given the worries about DNAME administration, the number of lookups needed etc, I would like to have DNAME on the list for alternatives, but without compelling arguments why it is better than (a) and (b) above, not as a real alternative. I accept more alternatives of course, but, would like to get few examples on how to handle these issues in a document which talks about "DNS 101 in the ENUM context". People should read ripe-192, "Simple DNS Configuration Example," , which might be a document we can reference. It took over a year to create ripe-192 (belive it or not)....and I don't want those "basic" discussions here if we can avoid it. But, specific examples, and then references to RIPE-192 is of course ok. I think it might be needed as Ripe-192 is pretty basic, and VERY hands on. paf _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Fri Nov 2 04:01:19 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA28159 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 04:01:18 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id EAA11017 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 04:01:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id DAA10479; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 03:42:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id DAA10380 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 03:42:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from internal.mail.demon.net (internal.mail.demon.net [193.195.224.3]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id DAA27900 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 03:42:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from finch-staff-1.server.demon.net (finch-staff-1.server.demon.net [193.195.224.1]) by internal.mail.demon.net with ESMTP id fA28gZi02389; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 08:42:35 GMT Received: from clive by finch-staff-1.server.demon.net with local (Exim 3.33 #1) id 15zZqT-0002ZX-00; Fri, 02 Nov 2001 08:38:33 +0000 Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 08:38:33 +0000 From: "Clive D.W. Feather" To: Bill Manning Cc: mjh@thetrendwatchers.com, "Jordyn A. Buchanan" , "David R. Conrad" , Pfautz Penn L NNAD , Kevin McCandless , enum@ietf.org, lprabhala@verisign.com, Bob Wienski Subject: Re: [Enum] ENUM interworking Message-ID: <20011102083833.A5920@demon.net> References: <200111011951.fA1Jp0d25365@zed.isi.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200111011951.fA1Jp0d25365@zed.isi.edu>; from bmanning@ISI.EDU on Thu, Nov 01, 2001 at 11:51:00AM -0800 Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org Bill Manning said: > % Your example is perfect. "555.1212" is a directory assistance number. If I > % dial 555.1212, I will almost certainly need to be routed differently than > % you will, even in the same area code, especially if we have different TSP > > me thinks you have made at least one assumption here. > please bear with me. I think that it is true that > there is only one "delegation" at 2.1.2.1.5.5.5.2.1.2.1.e164.arpa. > > there may be several totally sad poodles (TSP) that wish to > provide answers for an unqualified request made to: > 2.1.2.1.5.5.5 > and it seems that you do not believe this can be done. No, that's not quite the issue. There are certain telephone numbers, both within and outside E.164 space, that belong to multiple entities simultaneously. This is because they are "service codes" rather than numbers per se. It's a while since I studied the NANP in detail, but if I recall correctly the area code +1 700 works like this: the local loop provider controls the use of the number space, so that the destination of a call will depend on the local loop provider. I presume that +1 NPA 555 1212 fits into this category. How do we handle such service codes. There is no one person who "owns" these numbers, so what should the DNS say for them ? Come to think of it (and again IIRC) +1 700 555 4141 means "tell me who my long distance carrier is" and therefore varies by *customer*, let along by local loop operator. -- Clive D.W. Feather | Work: | Tel: +44 20 8371 1138 Internet Expert | Home: | Fax: +44 20 8371 4037 Demon Internet | WWW: http://www.davros.org | Mobile: +44 7973 377646 Thus plc | | _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Fri Nov 2 04:14:31 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA28310 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 04:14:27 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id EAA11473 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 04:14:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id EAA11166; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 04:04:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id EAA11135 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 04:04:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from internal.mail.demon.net (internal.mail.demon.net [193.195.224.3]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA28218 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 04:04:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from finch-staff-1.server.demon.net (finch-staff-1.server.demon.net [193.195.224.1]) by internal.mail.demon.net with ESMTP id fA294qi04892; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 09:04:52 GMT Received: from clive by finch-staff-1.server.demon.net with local (Exim 3.33 #1) id 15zaC2-00033m-00 for enum@ietf.org; Fri, 02 Nov 2001 09:00:50 +0000 Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 09:00:50 +0000 From: "Clive D.W. Feather" To: enum@ietf.org Message-ID: <20011102090050.B5920@demon.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i Subject: [Enum] ENUM and service codes Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org In the UK we have a range of telephone numbers that are *not* part of E.164 number space. These are known as "service codes". While some are not really relevant to ENUM (e.g. codes such as 132 that select an alternate long distance carrier), some of them are. For example, the codes 11800 to 11899 will soon be in use to access directory assistance operators, and it strikes me as reasonable for users to be able to use ENUM to get at related services. These numbers do not have an E.164 mapping ("+44 XXXXXX" is dialled as "0 XXXXX", so no number not beginning 0 can be mapped back to +44). So how do we envisage fitting these into the ENUM model ? I suppose one possibility would be something like: 0.0.8.1.1.service.4.4.e164.arpa Another would be to take the whole "dialled number" concept in, so that I get at directory assistance by: 0.0.8.1.1.dialled.4.4.e164.arpa and: 0.0.dialled.4.4.e164.arpa DNAME e164.arpa 1.0.dialled.4.4.e164.arpa DNAME 1.4.4.e164.arpa 2.0.dialled.4.4.e164.arpa DNAME 2.4.4.e164.arpa ... 9.0.dialled.4.4.e164.arpa DNAME 9.4.4.e164.arpa Is there any mileage in exploring this further ? Background info for those unfamiliar with the UK numbering system. The dialling plan works as follows: * A full subscriber number is of the form 0NXXXX, where N is not zero. The split between area code and individual number is not significant (and varies in its placement). The number can simply be dialled. These numbers appear in E.164 in the form +44 NXXXX. * Dialling 00 requests international access; it is followed by the E.164 number, so that +33XXXX is dialled as 0033XXXX. * Most but not all individual numbers begin with a digit between 2 and 9. Such numbers can be dialled within the same area code without using the code. Thus if I am in 020, I can dial 7XXX instead of 0207XXXX. * Numbers beginning 1 (and also the special number 999) are service codes. These in turn fall into three groups: - Type A codes have a common meaning for all local loop operators. Some always route to the same place (118XX for directory), some to operator-specific destinations (100 for "the operator"). - Type B codes are allocated to long distance providers, and mean "route the call through this provider". - Type C codes are operator-specific, and the same code may do different things for different operators. -- Clive D.W. Feather | Work: | Tel: +44 20 8371 1138 Internet Expert | Home: | Fax: +44 20 8371 4037 Demon Internet | WWW: http://www.davros.org | Mobile: +44 7973 377646 Thus plc | | _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Fri Nov 2 05:15:30 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA28821 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 05:15:30 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id FAA13295 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 05:15:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id FAA12925; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 05:05:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id FAA12864 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 05:05:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from shell.nominum.com (shell.nominum.com [128.177.192.160]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id FAA28684 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 05:04:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from shell.nominum.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by shell.nominum.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56E663190D; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 02:04:32 -0800 (PST) To: "Clive D.W. Feather" Cc: Bill Manning , mjh@thetrendwatchers.com, "Jordyn A. Buchanan" , "David R. Conrad" , Pfautz Penn L NNAD , Kevin McCandless , enum@ietf.org, lprabhala@verisign.com, Bob Wienski Subject: Re: [Enum] ENUM interworking In-Reply-To: Message from "Clive D.W. Feather" of "Fri, 02 Nov 2001 08:38:33 GMT." <20011102083833.A5920@demon.net> Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 02:04:32 -0800 Message-ID: <4827.1004695472@shell.nominum.com> From: Jim Reid Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org >>>>> "Clive" == Clive D W Feather writes: Clive> There are certain telephone numbers, both within and Clive> outside E.164 space, that belong to multiple entities Clive> simultaneously. This is because they are "service codes" Clive> rather than numbers per se. Clive> How do we handle such service codes. There is no one person Clive> who "owns" these numbers, so what should the DNS say for Clive> them ? Unless I'm missing something obvious in the telephony world, this is simple. Each operator could set up their own private zones for these service codes. So if devices in that operator's network lookup 1.1.9.e164.arpa (say), they get NAPTR records which point them to the emergency service provided by that operator. [There would obviously have to be some checks and procedures to ensure the operator doesn't unilaterally add service codes or other stuff to their local name servers. DNSSEC could be useful here to stop naughty things from happening.] This approach would not work if the service codes overlap with country codes or whatever: for instance +91 belongs to India. In that case, there's another solution. The ENUM device recognises the number as a service code and adds an operator specific extension to it, creating a unique E.164 number for looking up in the DNS: eg 911 becomes 123456789011 and that's what's looked up. I think that's what Bill was alluding to earlier. So when a device joins the network, the operator supplies the list of service codes available on that network and their corresponding unique E.164 numbers. [They could maybe be supplied as DHCP options: some hand-waving here!] When the user dials a service code, the device just looks up the unique E.164 number for it and we're done. Clive> Come to think of it (and again IIRC) +1 700 555 4141 means Clive> "tell me who my long distance carrier is" and therefore Clive> varies by *customer*, let along by local loop operator. Presumably this number's NAPTR records would point at something like an LDAP repository that can answer that question. Remember that the DNS is a lookup protocol -- "what data is held for this name?" -- so there are some types of questions you can't reasonably expect it to answer. Now you could use something like views in BIND9 to provide different answers for the above number's NAPTR records. But it would probably not be scalable for this example. It would get very messy and ugly very quickly: think about what would have to happen when someone switches long distance provider. _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Fri Nov 2 06:42:48 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA29385 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 06:42:48 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id GAA15369 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 06:42:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id GAA15180; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 06:33:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id GAA15147 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 06:33:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from bartok.sidn.nl (bartok.sidn.nl [193.176.144.164]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA29309 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 06:33:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from bartok.sidn.nl (localhost.sidn.nl [127.0.0.1]) by bartok.sidn.nl (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fA2BWKu12297; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 12:32:20 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from jaap@bartok.sidn.nl) Message-Id: <200111021132.fA2BWKu12297@bartok.sidn.nl> To: "Clive D.W. Feather" cc: enum@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Enum] ENUM and service codes In-reply-to: Your message of Fri, 02 Nov 2001 09:00:50 +0000. <20011102090050.B5920@demon.net> Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 12:32:20 +0100 From: Jaap Akkerhuis Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org Clive In the UK we have a range of telephone numbers that are *not* part of E.164 number space. These are known as "service codes". Maybe I'm missing something, but, isn't enum only dealing with the E.164 number space? To quote from the RFC: This document discusses the use of the Domain Name System (DNS) for storage of E.164 numbers. More specifically, how DNS can be used for identifying available services connected to one E.164 number. If you want to do something similar with ``service codes'', I think a different RFC might be needed. Just going ahead with kludges, is probably a bad idea. jaap _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Fri Nov 2 09:40:00 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA06084 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 09:39:59 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id JAA19081 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 09:40:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA18647; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 09:30:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA18602 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 09:30:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from hvmta03-stg.us.psimail.psi.net (hvmta03-ext.us.psimail.psi.net [38.202.36.27]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA05804 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 09:30:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from RWALTER ([65.203.166.44]) by hvmta03-stg.us.psimail.psi.net (InterMail vM.4.01.02.17 201-229-119) with SMTP id <20011102142938.YIAE21742.hvmta03-stg.us.psimail.psi.net@RWALTER>; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 09:29:38 -0500 Reply-To: From: "Robert H. Walter" To: =?us-ascii?Q?Patrik_Faltstrom?= , "Jordyn A. Buchanan" , "David R. Conrad" , "Pfautz, Penn L, NNAD" , "Kevin McCandless" , Cc: , "Bob Wienski" Subject: RE: [Enum] ENUM interworking Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 09:29:40 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <2249046.1004685403@localhost> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Patrik Faltsrom Wrote: > (b) Using NS records: > > Add to some zone the following record: > > 2.1.2.1.5.5.5.2.1.2.1.e164.arpa. IN NS ns.example.ie. > > and a zone to the ns.example.ie server which looks like > > 2.1.2.1.5.5.5.2.1.2.1.example.ie. IN SOA .... > 2.1.2.1.5.5.5.2.1.2.1.example.ie. IN NS ns.example.ie. > 2.1.2.1.5.5.5.2.1.2.1.example.ie. IN NAPTR .... > > > Note that in example (b) the ns.example.ie. nameserver need to have one > zone per number it takes care of, while in example (a) it can have more > than one number in each zone. Which one of these two proposals is the > easiest I don't know. There are pros and cons with both. Hi Patrik, How does the resolver know to modify the original DNS question from 2.1.2.1.5.5.5.2.1.2.1.e164.arpa. to 2.1.2.1.5.5.5.2.1.2.1.example.ie.? Bob _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Fri Nov 2 11:00:33 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA08662 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 11:00:33 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id LAA20939 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 11:00:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA20529; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 10:49:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA20497 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 10:49:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from tnt.isi.edu (tnt.isi.edu [128.9.128.128]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA08386 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 10:49:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from zed.isi.edu (zed.isi.edu [128.9.160.57]) by tnt.isi.edu (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id fA2FnCg12992; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 07:49:12 -0800 (PST) From: Bill Manning Received: (from bmanning@localhost) by zed.isi.edu (8.11.0/8.8.6) id fA2FnCX26122; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 07:49:12 -0800 Message-Id: <200111021549.fA2FnCX26122@zed.isi.edu> Subject: Re: [Enum] ENUM interworking To: rwalter@netnumber.com Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 07:49:12 -0800 (PST) Cc: paf@cisco.com (=?us-ascii?Q?Patrik_Faltstrom?=), jordyn@register.com (Jordyn A. Buchanan), david.conrad@nominum.com (David R. Conrad), ppfautz@att.com (Pfautz Penn L NNAD), KMcCandless@illuminet.com (Kevin McCandless), enum@ietf.org, lprabhala@verisign.com, bwienski@illuminet.com (Bob Wienski) In-Reply-To: from "Robert H. Walter" at Nov 02, 2001 09:29:40 AM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL3] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit % Hi Patrik, % % How does the resolver know to modify the original DNS question from % 2.1.2.1.5.5.5.2.1.2.1.e164.arpa. to 2.1.2.1.5.5.5.2.1.2.1.example.ie.? % % Bob Allow me to speak for paf... two things come promptly to mind. ) BIND's views and ACLs, based on the query source ) UltraDNS's functional equivalent (that can also direct the answer based on time of query.... :) -- bill _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Fri Nov 2 17:08:37 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA20003 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 17:08:37 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id RAA02053 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 17:08:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA01272; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 16:58:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA01243 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 16:58:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from bnmail.Westbrooke.bango.net ([62.254.208.129]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA19802 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 16:58:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from RAY3480CT.bango.net (host213-120-116-62.in-addr.btopenworld.com [213.120.116.62]) by bnmail.Westbrooke.bango.net with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2650.21) id 4PYW1PFH; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 22:00:28 -0000 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20011102215754.00affed8@mail.bango.net> X-Sender: ray@mail.bango.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 22:00:22 +0000 To: , "Stastny, Richard" , From: Ray Anderson Subject: RE: [Enum] e164.arpa: a technical or policy issue? In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org I have recently been given very clear advice, that under European law you are NOT allowed to publish somebody's phone number unless they give you explicit permission to do so. Operators are under that obligation, and may not transmit the numbers outside Europe unless the jurisdiction gives at least the same level of protection. Ray At 13:39 01/11/2001 -0500, Mark Harris wrote: >Hello Richard and All: > > >that E.164 numbers are protected by _COPYRIGHT_ > >Would that mean that if I was given a telephone number (as a subscriber), >I would not be "allowed" to give it to others to put into various other >directories? > >Kind of defeats the purpose of a telephone number... >Ray Anderson CEO Bango.net Limited www.bango.net/00454545 The Mobile Internet is for everyone. It must be very easy to use. _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Fri Nov 2 18:12:19 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA21525 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 18:12:19 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id SAA03967 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 18:12:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA03276; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 17:57:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA03247 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 17:57:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from sj-msg-core-2.cisco.com (sj-msg-core-2.cisco.com [171.69.24.11]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA21249 for ; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 17:57:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from mira-sjcm-3.cisco.com (mira-sjcm-3.cisco.com [171.69.24.15]) by sj-msg-core-2.cisco.com (8.11.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id fA2Muia17871; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 14:56:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from DWINGW2K (dhcp-128-107-139-147.cisco.com [128.107.139.147]) by mira-sjcm-3.cisco.com (Mirapoint) with SMTP id ACN10177; Fri, 2 Nov 2001 14:47:12 -0800 (PST) From: "Dan Wing" To: "Ray Anderson" , , "Stastny, Richard" , Subject: RE: [Enum] e164.arpa: a technical or policy issue? Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 14:56:37 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011102215754.00affed8@mail.bango.net> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How does this apply to ENUM? ENUM doesn't map person's name to a number, and doesn't map a number to a person's name. -d > -----Original Message----- > From: enum-admin@ietf.org [mailto:enum-admin@ietf.org]On Behalf Of Ray > Anderson > Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 2:00 PM > To: mjh@TheTrendWatchers.com; Stastny, Richard; enum@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [Enum] e164.arpa: a technical or policy issue? > > > I have recently been given very clear advice, that under > European law you are NOT allowed to publish somebody's phone number > unless they give you explicit permission to do so. > > Operators are under that obligation, and may not transmit the numbers > outside Europe > unless the jurisdiction gives at least the same level of protection. > > Ray > > At 13:39 01/11/2001 -0500, Mark Harris wrote: > >Hello Richard and All: > > > > >that E.164 numbers are protected by _COPYRIGHT_ > > > >Would that mean that if I was given a telephone number (as a subscriber), > >I would not be "allowed" to give it to others to put into various other > >directories? > > > >Kind of defeats the purpose of a telephone number... > >Ray Anderson CEO Bango.net Limited www.bango.net/00454545 > > The Mobile Internet is for everyone. It must be very easy to use. > > > _______________________________________________ > enum mailing list > enum@ietf.org > http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Sat Nov 3 04:26:25 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA13077 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 04:26:25 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id EAA21322 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 04:26:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id EAA21097; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 04:17:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id EAA21066 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 04:17:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from internal.mail.demon.net (internal.mail.demon.net [193.195.224.3]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA13016 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 04:17:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from finch-staff-1.server.demon.net (finch-staff-1.server.demon.net [193.195.224.1]) by internal.mail.demon.net with ESMTP id fA39F6i13515; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 09:15:06 GMT Received: from clive by finch-staff-1.server.demon.net with local (Exim 3.33 #1) id 15zwpS-00018X-00; Sat, 03 Nov 2001 09:11:02 +0000 Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 09:11:02 +0000 From: "Clive D.W. Feather" To: Ray Anderson Cc: mjh@thetrendwatchers.com, "Stastny, Richard" , enum@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Enum] e164.arpa: a technical or policy issue? Message-ID: <20011103091102.C5920@demon.net> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011102215754.00affed8@mail.bango.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011102215754.00affed8@mail.bango.net>; from ray@bango.net on Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 10:00:22PM +0000 Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org Ray Anderson said: > I have recently been given very clear advice, that under > European law you are NOT allowed to publish somebody's phone number > unless they give you explicit permission to do so. That's an issue of data protection and, in particular, 97/66/EC. It only applies to directories (that map name to number and v.v.). -- Clive D.W. Feather | Work: | Tel: +44 20 8371 1138 Internet Expert | Home: | Fax: +44 20 8371 4037 Demon Internet | WWW: http://www.davros.org | Mobile: +44 7973 377646 Thus plc | | _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Sat Nov 3 07:20:32 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA13845 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 07:20:32 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id HAA24421 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 07:20:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id HAA24272; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 07:11:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id HAA24241 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 07:11:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from shell.nominum.com (shell.nominum.com [128.177.192.160]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA13799 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 07:11:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from shell.nominum.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by shell.nominum.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D959231919; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 04:10:48 -0800 (PST) To: "Dan Wing" Cc: "Ray Anderson" , mjh@thetrendwatchers.com, "Stastny, Richard" , enum@ietf.org In-Reply-To: Message from "Dan Wing" of "Fri, 02 Nov 2001 14:56:37 PST." Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 04:10:48 -0800 Message-ID: <42113.1004789448@shell.nominum.com> From: Jim Reid Subject: [Enum] EU data privacy considerations Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org >>>>> "Dan" == Dan Wing writes: Dan> How does this apply to ENUM? ENUM doesn't map person's name Dan> to a number, and doesn't map a number to a person's name. EU data protection laws apply to any data that could reasonably be expected to identify someone. Phone numbers clearly meet that requirement. There are also EU-wide regulations on privacy that have to be followed. This probably means that in Europe an opt-in scheme will have to be used for ENUM. Discussing these issues can get you into existential discussions about who owns a phone number: the organisation that issues the number or the entity that uses it. _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Sat Nov 3 07:41:23 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA14023 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 07:41:22 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id HAA25049 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 07:41:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id HAA24859; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 07:32:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id HAA24830 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 07:32:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from shell.nominum.com (shell.nominum.com [128.177.192.160]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA13944 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 07:32:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from shell.nominum.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by shell.nominum.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C009E3190D; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 04:32:17 -0800 (PST) To: "Clive D.W. Feather" Cc: Ray Anderson , mjh@thetrendwatchers.com, "Stastny, Richard" , enum@ietf.org In-Reply-To: Message from "Clive D.W. Feather" of "Sat, 03 Nov 2001 09:11:02 GMT." <20011103091102.C5920@demon.net> Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 04:32:17 -0800 Message-ID: <42493.1004790737@shell.nominum.com> From: Jim Reid Subject: [Enum] EU data protection and ENUM Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org >>>>> "Clive" == Clive D W Feather writes: >> Ray Anderson said: >> I have recently been given very clear advice, that under >> European law you are NOT allowed to publish somebody's phone >> number unless they give you explicit permission to do so. Clive> That's an issue of data protection and, in particular, Clive> 97/66/EC. It only applies to directories (that map name to Clive> number and v.v.). IIUC 97/66/EC appplies to more than directories, however you have defined them. [Did you mean phone book type directories or stuff like LDAP servers?] It's not unlikely that NAPTR records for some number could contain the name of the person owning that number or a pointer to their web site or email address or postal address or.... In that case, ENUM will fall within the remit of EU data protection directives and national data protection law. _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Sat Nov 3 09:09:05 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA14570 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 09:09:05 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id JAA26828 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 09:09:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA26005; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 08:53:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA25976 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 08:53:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from cisco.com (nordic.cisco.com [64.103.48.45]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA14412 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 08:53:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from [10.0.1.3] (ssh-ams1.cisco.com [144.254.74.55]) by cisco.com (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA11449; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 14:52:32 +0100 (MET) Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 14:43:12 +0100 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Patrik_F=E4ltstr=F6m?= To: mjh@thetrendwatchers.com, "Jordyn A. Buchanan" , "David R. Conrad" , "Pfautz, Penn L, NNAD" , Kevin McCandless , enum@ietf.org cc: lprabhala@verisign.com, Bob Wienski Subject: RE: [Enum] ENUM interworking Message-ID: <2708088.1004798592@localhost> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.1.1 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --On 2001-11-01 14.43 -0500 Mark Harris wrote: >> For example, the owner of +1.212.555.1212 > > Your example is perfect. "555.1212" is a directory assistance number. > If I dial 555.1212, I will almost certainly need to be routed differently > than you will, even in the same area code, especially if we have > different TSP carriers. "Multiple places, One Telephone #" The numbers you dial on a phone can be of three different kinds according to the regulator of Sweden which helped me when I wrote RFC 2916: - A number from E.164 space, which is globally usable, where the caller ends up at a specific destination regardless of from where he is calling. The number is to be globally resolvable and reachable. - A number from E.164 space, which is not globally usable, where the caller either only can dial it from a specific location, where the number is not globally reachable - A number which is not from E.164 space RFC 2916 is about E.164 numbers and only the first of these three categories. Your example is from the second category. 911 / 112 are from the last category. When talking about these issues, I differ between a dialing plan and the global E.164 numbering plan. ENUM is only about the latter. An ISP / Telco / Enterprise might have interest in using DNS and NAPTR resource records fo implementation of a local dialing plan in their whole or part of their network. That is implemented by having the owner of the network storing the numbers in whatever hierarchy they want (not e164.arpa) and having software which can distinguish between when "enum-like-service" is to be used for the dialled number, and when ENUM-service is to be used for the global E.164 number plan. Don't mix these things up... paf _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Sat Nov 3 09:14:22 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA14643 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 09:14:22 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id JAA26940 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 09:14:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA26186; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 08:59:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA26155 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 08:59:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from ironside.merula.net (root@ironside.merula.net [217.146.97.8]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id IAA14478 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 08:59:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from viviane.merula.net (viviane.merula.net [217.146.97.14]) by ironside.merula.net (8.11.6/8.11.6/Merula) with SMTP id fA3E3pM07273 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 14:03:51 GMT Received: FROM nimue.merula.net BY viviane.merula.net ; Sat Nov 03 13:57:05 2001 0000 Received: from office (pc2-pena2-0-cust131.cdf.cable.ntl.com [213.107.3.131]) by nimue.merula.net (8.11.6/8.11.6/Merula) with ESMTP id fA3C7DE18814; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 12:07:13 GMT Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 13:58:57 GMT From: Richard D G Cox To: enum@ietf.org Organization: Mandarin Technology Limited, Penarth, UK In-Reply-To: <200111021700.MAA23138@optimus.ietf.org> References: <200111021700.MAA23138@optimus.ietf.org> Message-Id: <20011103133841.3CF0.MANAGEMENT@numbering.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Becky! ver. 2.00.07 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Enum] Re: enum digest, Vol 1 #308 - 5 msgs Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Fri, 2 Nov 2001 09:00:50 +0000 Clive D.W. Feather wrote: > In the UK we have a range of telephone numbers that are *not* part of E.164 > number space. Not only are they not part of E.164 number space, they are not even telephone numbers. They are correctly described as "Access Codes". > codes 11800 to 11899 will soon be in use to access directory assistance > operators, and it strikes me as reasonable for users to be able to use > ENUM to get at related services. The point is that the majority of these codes are originating-network specific ... even if (in the case of "Type A" access codes the target is consistent in nature, it is unlikely (except in the case of the emergency access codes, 112 and 999) to be the same destination. Those destinations are usually no more than number translations (and in all cases can be made to be so). Access via ENUM is less likely to fit the service model of the offerings behind these access codes, and it should be a matter for those offering those services to decide whether the ENUM approach is appropriate for them (in which case they will presumably provide a parallel E.164 number which would then be transparent to ENUM). Indeed, in WZ1 there are very few equivalents of our "level-1" access codes simply because the historic regulatory model would restrict access to the directly-connected customers of the appropriate Telco. Thus the Services in the US that would be behind Access Codes in the UK, are already on 10-digit numbers in WZ1 - can we say 1-800 OPERATER or 1-800 COLLECT here?) > Is there any mileage in exploring this further ? not even inch-age (SOrry!) > Such numbers can be dialled within the same area code without using the > code. For the record, while this is mostly true, there are exceptions. -- Richard D G Cox +44 29 2031 1111 _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Sat Nov 3 09:19:24 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA14689 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 09:19:23 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id JAA27005 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 09:19:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA26684; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 09:04:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA26655 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 09:04:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from nic-naa.net (216-220-241-232.midmaine.com [216.220.241.232]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id JAA14529 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 09:04:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from nic-naa.net (localhost.nic-naa.net [127.0.0.1]) by nic-naa.net (8.11.6/8.9.3) with ESMTP id fA3E6Em34190; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 09:06:14 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brunner@nic-naa.net) Message-Id: <200111031406.fA3E6Em34190@nic-naa.net> To: Richard Shockey cc: Kevin McCandless , "'enum@ietf.org'" , "'enumf-gen@enumf.org'" , brunner@nic-naa.net Subject: Re: [Enum] drafts you pointed out In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 01 Nov 2001 17:53:38 EST." <5.1.0.14.2.20011101174228.02a3ca70@127.0.0.1> Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 09:06:14 -0500 From: Eric Brunner-Williams in Portland Maine Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org Howdy everyone, Here's what I've seen (while being busy doing something else): Richard Stastny forwarded a (German) proposal that mentioned copyright, Mark Harris asked a "opt-in" sort of subscriber-publication follow-up, Ray Anderson cited advice concerning EU law, Dan Wing asked if an endpoint identifier (number) is personally identifying information (yes), Clive Feather commented that 97/66/EC is inapplicable (incorrectly), Jim Ried commented on "ownership" and existentialism (see below) and also the scope of 97/66/EC (correctly). Some informal notes: Copyright (or property) isn't the controlling legal theory for EU data protection ("privacy" for the US- and OECD-centric). Three approaches exist to the problem of "pivacy" and/or data protection: a consumer fraud approach (US FTC), a human rights approach (EU 95/46/EC [1] and its sequela, e.g., directories), and the OECD Guidelines [2] , that lie somewhere between these two, in theory, scope and detail. I commend to the interested both the general and specific data directives, and also the directory and public key directives. How I come to have an opinion on the subject: I've been an active participant in the W3C's P3P Specification and Policy Working Groups since leaving Nokia Research and joining Engage, an ad network operator. I co-authored another user profile onward-transport (registry provisioning) standard [3]. I've worked with the WAPF, W3C, and the DNS registry provisioning and extensions working groups (provreg and dnsext), and co-chair a moving-towards working group activity that is focused on "fixing" the whois protocol. I did one year of law school, at a fly-by-night non-accredited law school, so where attornies opine or give legal advice on this list and I differ with an attorney's opinion or legal advice, mine is a non-lawyer opinion. Full Disclosure: I get a paycheck every 14 days from NeuStar. I don't use their email system however and theres gobs of things I don't know about everything. It isn't necessary to speculate on the applicable law. There are some well informed people either on the ENUM list, or easily available to this working group. Well, the kids need playing with, have a nice weekend everyone. Cheers, Eric [1] http://europa.eu.int/eur-lex/fr/lif/dat/1995/fr_395L0046.html [2] http://www1.oecd.org/dsti/sti/it/secur/prod/priv-fr.html [3] http://www.cpexchange.org/standard/ _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Sat Nov 3 10:47:32 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA15942 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 10:47:32 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id KAA28810 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 10:47:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA28619; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 10:32:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA28591 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 10:32:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from cisco.com (nordic.cisco.com [64.103.48.45]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA15749 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 10:32:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from [169.254.207.34] (ssh-ams1.cisco.com [144.254.74.55]) by cisco.com (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA17320; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 16:31:04 +0100 (MET) Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 16:09:36 +0100 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Patrik_F=E4ltstr=F6m?= To: rwalter@netnumber.com, "Jordyn A. Buchanan" , "David R. Conrad" , "Pfautz, Penn L, NNAD" , Kevin McCandless , enum@ietf.org cc: lprabhala@verisign.com, Bob Wienski Subject: RE: [Enum] ENUM interworking Message-ID: <3019160.1004803776@localhost> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.1.1 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --On 2001-11-02 09.29 -0500 "Robert H. Walter" wrote: > Patrik Faltsrom Wrote: >> (b) Using NS records: >> >> Add to some zone the following record: >> >> 2.1.2.1.5.5.5.2.1.2.1.e164.arpa. IN NS ns.example.ie. >> >> and a zone to the ns.example.ie server which looks like >> >> 2.1.2.1.5.5.5.2.1.2.1.example.ie. IN SOA .... >> 2.1.2.1.5.5.5.2.1.2.1.example.ie. IN NS ns.example.ie. >> 2.1.2.1.5.5.5.2.1.2.1.example.ie. IN NAPTR .... >> >> >> Note that in example (b) the ns.example.ie. nameserver need to have one >> zone per number it takes care of, while in example (a) it can have more >> than one number in each zone. Which one of these two proposals is the >> easiest I don't know. There are pros and cons with both. > > Hi Patrik, > > How does the resolver know to modify the original DNS question from > 2.1.2.1.5.5.5.2.1.2.1.e164.arpa. to 2.1.2.1.5.5.5.2.1.2.1.example.ie.? Typo. Sorry. It should look like this: (b) Using NS records: Add to some zone the following record: 2.1.2.1.5.5.5.2.1.2.1.e164.arpa. IN NS ns.example.ie. and a zone to the ns.example.ie server which looks like 2.1.2.1.5.5.5.2.1.2.1.e164.arpa. IN SOA .... 2.1.2.1.5.5.5.2.1.2.1.e164.arpa. IN NS ns.example.ie. 2.1.2.1.5.5.5.2.1.2.1.e164.arpa. IN NAPTR .... paf _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Sat Nov 3 11:50:17 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA16307 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 11:50:17 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id LAA29889 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 11:50:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA29702; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 11:35:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA29671 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 11:35:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from hvmta02-stg.us.psimail.psi.net (hvmta02-ext.us.psimail.psi.net [38.202.36.30]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA16220 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 11:35:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from RWALTER ([65.200.172.38]) by hvmta02-stg.us.psimail.psi.net (InterMail vM.4.01.02.17 201-229-119) with SMTP id <20011103163433.VJFU10406.hvmta02-stg.us.psimail.psi.net@RWALTER>; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 11:34:33 -0500 Reply-To: From: "Robert H. Walter" To: =?us-ascii?Q?Patrik_Faltstrom?= , "Jordyn A. Buchanan" , "David R. Conrad" , "Pfautz, Penn L, NNAD" , "Kevin McCandless" , Cc: , "Bob Wienski" Subject: RE: [Enum] ENUM interworking Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 11:34:36 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <3019160.1004803776@localhost> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Patrik Faltstrom Wrote: > Typo. Sorry. > > It should look like this: > > (b) Using NS records: > > Add to some zone the following record: > > 2.1.2.1.5.5.5.2.1.2.1.e164.arpa. IN NS ns.example.ie. > > and a zone to the ns.example.ie server which looks like > > 2.1.2.1.5.5.5.2.1.2.1.e164.arpa. IN SOA .... > 2.1.2.1.5.5.5.2.1.2.1.e164.arpa. IN NS ns.example.ie. > 2.1.2.1.5.5.5.2.1.2.1.e164.arpa. IN NAPTR .... Hi Patrick, Much better... Now for the next question. Why do you recommend creating a separate zone for each NAPTR record at ns.example.ie? It is far simpler to create a single zone at ns1.example.ie for all or any part of "e164.arpa.". (c) Using NS records: Add NS records for each E164 to the "e164.arpa" zone 2.1.2.1.5.5.5.2.1.2.1.e164.arpa. IN NS ns.example.ie. 3.1.2.1.5.5.5.2.1.2.1.e164.arpa. IN NS ns.example.ie. 4.1.2.1.5.5.5.2.1.2.1.e164.arpa. IN NS ns.example.ie. At ns.example.ie, create an "e164.arpa." zone and add the corresponding NAPTR records. e164.arpa. IN SOA .... e164.arpa. IN NS ns.example.ie. 2.1.2.1.5.5.5.2.1.2.1.e164.arpa. IN NAPTR .... 3.1.2.1.5.5.5.2.1.2.1.e164.arpa. IN NAPTR .... 4.1.2.1.5.5.5.2.1.2.1.e164.arpa. IN NAPTR .... You do need an NS record per E164 in the parent zone, but not a zone per record in the delegated zone. Bob _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Sat Nov 3 12:41:30 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA16722 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 12:41:25 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id MAA01639 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 12:41:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA01117; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 12:26:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA01080 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 12:26:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from bnmail.Westbrooke.bango.net ([62.254.208.129]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA16537 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 12:26:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from RAY3480CT.bango.net (host213-120-116-62.in-addr.btopenworld.com [213.120.116.62]) by bnmail.Westbrooke.bango.net with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2650.21) id 4PYW1QGZ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 17:28:54 -0000 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20011103172412.02efbe48@mail.bango.net> X-Sender: ray@mail.bango.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 17:28:44 +0000 To: "Dan Wing" , , "Stastny, Richard" , From: Ray Anderson Subject: RE: [Enum] e164.arpa: a technical or policy issue? In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011102215754.00affed8@mail.bango.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org It means that the technical implementation of ENUM needs to ensure that we do whatever we can in the technical design to ensure we are able to comply with the relevant EU (and other ) directives. The fact that name is or is not mapped is irrelevant. Many phone numbers are to services, not individuals, yet these can still be "protected" or made ex-directory. If we proceed with an implementation that increases the difficulty of complying with the relevant laws, we have less chance of success, just as GSM had to balance technical complexity with security. Ray At 14:56 02/11/2001 -0800, Dan Wing wrote: >How does this apply to ENUM? ENUM doesn't map person's name to >a number, and doesn't map a number to a person's name. > >-d > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: enum-admin@ietf.org [mailto:enum-admin@ietf.org]On Behalf Of Ray > > Anderson > > Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 2:00 PM > > To: mjh@TheTrendWatchers.com; Stastny, Richard; enum@ietf.org > > Subject: RE: [Enum] e164.arpa: a technical or policy issue? > > > > > > I have recently been given very clear advice, that under > > European law you are NOT allowed to publish somebody's phone number > > unless they give you explicit permission to do so. > > > > Operators are under that obligation, and may not transmit the numbers > > outside Europe > > unless the jurisdiction gives at least the same level of protection. === Ray Anderson CEO Bango.net Limited www.bango.net/00454545 The Mobile Internet is for everyone. It must be very easy to use. _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Sat Nov 3 13:23:36 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA17039 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 13:23:36 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id NAA02624 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 13:23:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA02135; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 13:02:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA02104 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 13:02:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from joy.songbird.com (IDENT:root@songbird.com [208.184.79.7]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA16841 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 13:02:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from bbprime.dcrocker.net (c1193160-a.snvl1.sfba.home.com [65.0.152.112]) by joy.songbird.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA05657; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 10:02:07 -0800 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20011103095903.039592b0@dcrocker.net> X-Sender: dhc@brandenburg.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 10:02:01 -0800 To: Ray Anderson From: Dave Crocker Subject: RE: [Enum] e164.arpa: a technical or policy issue? Cc: In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011103172412.02efbe48@mail.bango.net> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011102215754.00affed8@mail.bango.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org At 05:28 PM 11/3/2001 +0000, Ray Anderson wrote: >It means that the technical implementation of ENUM needs to ensure that >we do whatever we can in the technical design to ensure we are able to >comply with the relevant EU (and other ) directives. of course. >The fact that name is or is not mapped is irrelevant. on the contrary, it is entirely relevant. as noted, the EU proscription pertains to exactly this function. if ENUM does not do the mapping -- and it does not -- then that particular proscription is not applicable to ENUM. >Many phone numbers are to services, not individuals, yet these can still >be "protected" or made ex-directory. Whatever do you mean, here? Anyone can dial any telephone number. ENUM enables virtual dialing. As such, it does not create a basic ability that does not already exist. >If we proceed with an implementation that increases the difficulty of >complying >with the relevant laws, we have less chance of success, just as GSM had >to balance technical complexity with security. The real challenge is moving from this truism to specifics that actually apply to ENUM. d/ ---------- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking tel +1.408.246.8253; fax +1.408.273.6464 _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Sat Nov 3 13:32:50 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA17116 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 13:32:46 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id NAA03030 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 13:32:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA02342; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 13:14:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA02311 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 13:14:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from sj-msg-core-4.cisco.com (sj-msg-core-4.cisco.com [171.71.163.10]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA16926 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 13:14:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from mira-sjcm-3.cisco.com (mira-sjcm-3.cisco.com [171.69.24.15]) by sj-msg-core-4.cisco.com (8.11.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id fA3IDdT03724; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 10:13:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from DWINGW2K (ssh-sj1.cisco.com [171.68.225.134]) by mira-sjcm-3.cisco.com (Mirapoint) with SMTP id ACN20888; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 10:04:08 -0800 (PST) From: "Dan Wing" To: "Jim Reid" Cc: "Ray Anderson" , , "Stastny, Richard" , Subject: RE: [Enum] EU data privacy considerations Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 10:13:36 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <42113.1004789448@shell.nominum.com> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >>>>> "Dan" == Dan Wing writes: > > Dan> How does this apply to ENUM? ENUM doesn't map person's name > Dan> to a number, and doesn't map a number to a person's name. > > EU data protection laws apply to any data that could reasonably be > expected to identify someone. Phone numbers clearly meet that > requirement. Modifying an example from RFC2916, I could see that $ORIGIN 4.3.2.1.6.7.9.8.6.4.e164.arpa. IN NAPTR 10 10 "u" "sip+E2U" "!^.*$!sip:paf@swip.net!". could be identify Patrik if you had some way of knowing that paf@swip.net is an identity he uses. But, if his ITSP is required by law (or subscriber preference) to obfuscute this mapping, you could use $ORIGIN 4.3.2.1.6.7.9.8.6.4.e164.arpa. IN NAPTR 10 10 "u" "sip+E2U" "!^.*$!sip:user-4689761234@swip.net!". and the problem moves from ENUM to SIP to not disclose identifying information of the endpoint if the endpoint cannot be identified by law or by subscriber preference. > There are also EU-wide regulations on privacy that have > to be followed. This probably means that in Europe an opt-in scheme > will have to be used for ENUM. It depends on what's placed in the ENUM database. The ENUM database can safely contain pointers for all phone numbers identifying the ITSP for that user, for example. In countries where there is still only a PTT, the ITSP would be the PTT. In countries where there is competition, the identified ITSP would be based on the user's preference. > Discussing these issues can get you > into existential discussions about who owns a phone number: the > organisation that issues the number or the entity that uses it. It doesn't seem to matter who owns the information or who owns the mapping -- if mapping +1-408-525-5314 to "sip:dwing@cisco.com" is considered excessive identifying information, that needs to not be disclosed no matter who owns the number. I don't see how mapping +1-408-525-5314 to "sip:user-14085255314@pacbell.net" could possibly violate the EU privacy laws. As an example, every number in +49 is serviced by Deutche Telecom, but that information doesn't identify a person. As another example, my work number, +1-408-525-xxxx, identifies me as inside the US, in N. California, and in a specific section of San Jose. Certainly knowing that my ITSP is Pacific Bell - the local incumbant carrier - isn't excessive identifying information. -d _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Sat Nov 3 13:35:49 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA17154 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 13:35:49 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id NAA03068 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 13:35:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA02468; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 13:17:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA02437 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 13:17:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from sj-msg-core-2.cisco.com (sj-msg-core-2.cisco.com [171.69.24.11]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id NAA16959 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 13:17:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from mira-sjcm-3.cisco.com (mira-sjcm-3.cisco.com [171.69.24.15]) by sj-msg-core-2.cisco.com (8.11.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id fA3IGua17393; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 10:16:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from DWINGW2K (ssh-sj1.cisco.com [171.68.225.134]) by mira-sjcm-3.cisco.com (Mirapoint) with SMTP id ACN20908; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 10:07:26 -0800 (PST) From: "Dan Wing" To: "Ray Anderson" , , "Stastny, Richard" , Subject: RE: [Enum] e164.arpa: a technical or policy issue? Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 10:16:55 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011103172412.02efbe48@mail.bango.net> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Importance: Normal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The fact that name is or is not mapped is irrelevant. Many phone numbers > are to services, not individuals, yet these can still be > "protected" or made ex-directory. Today's PSTN subscribers are not restricted to dialing numbers that only appear in a phone book. Not disclosing a number does not somehow "protect" it. Decades ago it was common to set up a PC over a weekend to dial numbers sequentially to determine what sorts of services are available on different numbers. -d _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Sat Nov 3 14:35:33 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA17691 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 14:35:33 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id OAA04702 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 14:35:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA03966; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 14:15:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA03941 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 14:15:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from cisco.com (nordic.cisco.com [64.103.48.45]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA17527 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 14:15:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from [169.254.207.34] (ssh-ams1.cisco.com [144.254.74.55]) by cisco.com (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA00216; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 20:10:55 +0100 (MET) Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 17:25:38 +0100 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Patrik_F=E4ltstr=F6m?= To: Jim Reid , "Clive D.W. Feather" cc: Ray Anderson , mjh@thetrendwatchers.com, "Stastny, Richard" , enum@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Enum] EU data protection and ENUM Message-ID: <3292866.1004808338@localhost> In-Reply-To: <42493.1004790737@shell.nominum.com> References: <42493.1004790737@shell.nominum.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.1.1 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --On 2001-11-03 04.32 -0800 Jim Reid wrote: > IIUC 97/66/EC appplies to more than directories, however you have > defined them. [Did you mean phone book type directories or stuff like > LDAP servers?] It's not unlikely that NAPTR records for some number > could contain the name of the person owning that number or a pointer > to their web site or email address or postal address or.... In that > case, ENUM will fall within the remit of EU data protection directives > and national data protection law. It's because of this I personally have thought there is a need for a standardized way of (a) having an LDAP URI in a NAPTR in a standardized way where "sensitive information" is stored and (b) continuing to be very strict on having ENUM being an opt-in system on all levels, from countrycodes to consumers. Do you think these two things help? paf _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Sat Nov 3 14:38:40 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA17728 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 14:38:40 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id OAA04771 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 14:38:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA04153; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 14:21:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA04121 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 14:21:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from nic-naa.net (216-220-241-232.midmaine.com [216.220.241.232]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA17583 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 14:21:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from nic-naa.net (localhost.nic-naa.net [127.0.0.1]) by nic-naa.net (8.11.6/8.9.3) with ESMTP id fA3JLXm35324; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 14:21:33 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brunner@nic-naa.net) Message-Id: <200111031921.fA3JLXm35324@nic-naa.net> To: "Dan Wing" cc: "Jim Reid" , "Ray Anderson" , mjh@thetrendwatchers.com, "Stastny, Richard" , enum@ietf.org, brunner@nic-naa.net Subject: Re: [Enum] EU data privacy considerations In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 03 Nov 2001 10:13:36 PST." Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 14:21:33 -0500 From: Eric Brunner-Williams in Portland Maine Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org Dan, If you'll take a look at our (p3p spec wg) current public draft, you will see that we (or rather, the broad set of people who've given us $.02 worth of their time) have "online.email" in our schema. We believe that knowing "paf@swip" is PII. We could be wrong, but that is in our base data schema. We also have ipaddr.{hostname,partialhostname,fullip,partialip}, so we're fairly certain that endpoint identifiers means something in a DP-context, though we are divided on what degree "partial" differs from "full" in the presence of a determined and resourcefull attacker (such as Engage, and/or DoubleClick, or a State). The "point to the ISP" approach has been considered, and rejected. This is also one proposal in the provreg wg, to make all registrants appear to be their registrar. It has advantages (maybe) for the registrant (subscriber), and is really interesting for "sticky" registrars (walled-garden operators). Again, aggregation degrades as the attacker-cost increasses to the commercial or state resource levels. Again, title isn't the controlling issue. Anyway, have a gander at (or toss it over the cubie-wall to the pointy-haired legal myrmidons) the following: Opinion 5/2000 on The Use of Public Directories of Reverse or Muti-criteria Searching Services (Reverse Directories) http://europa.eu.int/comm/internal_market/en/dataprot/wpdocs/wp33en.htm When I find the paper on certificates indicating a pseudonymn I'll send it to the WG. Eric _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Sat Nov 3 15:00:36 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA17902 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 15:00:36 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id PAA05415 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 15:00:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA04843; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 14:43:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA04812 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 14:43:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from cisco.com (nordic.cisco.com [64.103.48.45]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id OAA17784 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 14:43:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from [169.254.207.34] (ssh-ams1.cisco.com [144.254.74.55]) by cisco.com (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA02157; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 20:42:20 +0100 (MET) Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 20:38:05 +0100 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Patrik_F=E4ltstr=F6m?= To: rwalter@netnumber.com, "Jordyn A. Buchanan" , "David R. Conrad" , "Pfautz, Penn L, NNAD" , Kevin McCandless , enum@ietf.org cc: lprabhala@verisign.com, Bob Wienski Subject: RE: [Enum] ENUM interworking Message-ID: <3985722.1004819885@localhost> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.1.1 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --On 2001-11-03 11.34 -0500 "Robert H. Walter" wrote: > Much better... Now for the next question. Why do you recommend creating > a separate zone for each NAPTR record at ns.example.ie? It is far simpler > to create a single zone at ns1.example.ie for all or any part of > "e164.arpa.". Because the nameserver at ns1.example.ie MUST NOT be authoritative for the E.164 numbers it does not have delegations for. > (c) Using NS records: > > Add NS records for each E164 to the "e164.arpa" zone > > 2.1.2.1.5.5.5.2.1.2.1.e164.arpa. IN NS ns.example.ie. > 3.1.2.1.5.5.5.2.1.2.1.e164.arpa. IN NS ns.example.ie. > 4.1.2.1.5.5.5.2.1.2.1.e164.arpa. IN NS ns.example.ie. It might be that you have instead: 2.1.2.1.5.5.5.2.1.2.1.e164.arpa. IN NS ns.example.ie. 3.1.2.1.5.5.5.2.1.2.1.e164.arpa. IN NS ns.example.se. <--- different server 4.1.2.1.5.5.5.2.1.2.1.e164.arpa. IN NS ns.example.ie. I.e. numbers which are adjacent might be handled by different servers (providers of NAPTR record hosting). > At ns.example.ie, create an "e164.arpa." zone and add the corresponding > NAPTR records. > > e164.arpa. IN SOA .... > e164.arpa. IN NS ns.example.ie. > > 2.1.2.1.5.5.5.2.1.2.1.e164.arpa. IN NAPTR .... > 3.1.2.1.5.5.5.2.1.2.1.e164.arpa. IN NAPTR .... > 4.1.2.1.5.5.5.2.1.2.1.e164.arpa. IN NAPTR .... > > You do need an NS record per E164 in the parent zone, but not a zone > per record in the delegated zone. See above. It breaks DNS. paf _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Sat Nov 3 15:19:16 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA18027 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 15:19:16 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id PAA05917 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 15:19:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA05236; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 15:00:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA05197 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 15:00:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from joy.songbird.com (IDENT:root@songbird.com [208.184.79.7]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA17896 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 15:00:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from bbprime.dcrocker.net (c1193160-a.snvl1.sfba.home.com [65.0.152.112]) by joy.songbird.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA09180; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 12:00:05 -0800 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20011103115133.03a4d4d0@dcrocker.net> X-Sender: dhc@brandenburg.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 11:55:42 -0800 To: Jim Reid From: Dave Crocker Subject: Re: [Enum] EU data privacy considerations Cc: enum@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <42113.1004789448@shell.nominum.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org At 04:10 AM 11/3/2001 -0800, Jim Reid wrote: > >>>>> "Dan" == Dan Wing writes: > Dan> How does this apply to ENUM? ENUM doesn't map person's name > Dan> to a number, and doesn't map a number to a person's name. > >EU data protection laws apply to any data that could reasonably be >expected to identify someone. Phone numbers clearly meet that >requirement. Jim, please forgive my confusion. Are you an expert on EU data law? That is, do you have direct, professional experience formulating EU data laws and/or advising clients in the topic and/or litigating such matters? I ask only because you are making statements about legal certitude. >There are also EU-wide regulations on privacy that have >to be followed. This probably means that in Europe an opt-in scheme >will have to be used for ENUM. And since you are now noting that even the strict EU has a path that permits use, we are left not knowing what the relevance of this discussion thread has, to a group discussing technical matters. It is also odd that such a concern would be raised this late in the process. d/ ---------- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking tel +1.408.246.8253; fax +1.408.273.6464 _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Sat Nov 3 15:34:51 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA18128 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 15:34:50 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id PAA06525 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 15:34:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA05810; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 15:17:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA05777 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 15:17:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from nic-naa.net (216-220-241-232.midmaine.com [216.220.241.232]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA17997 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 15:17:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from nic-naa.net (localhost.nic-naa.net [127.0.0.1]) by nic-naa.net (8.11.6/8.9.3) with ESMTP id fA3KI5m35561; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 15:18:05 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brunner@nic-naa.net) Message-Id: <200111032018.fA3KI5m35561@nic-naa.net> To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Patrik_F=E4ltstr=F6m?= cc: Jim Reid , "Clive D.W. Feather" , Ray Anderson , mjh@thetrendwatchers.com, "Stastny, Richard" , enum@ietf.org, brunner@nic-naa.net Subject: Re: [Enum] EU data protection and ENUM In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 03 Nov 2001 17:25:38 +0100." <3292866.1004808338@localhost> Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 15:18:05 -0500 From: Eric Brunner-Williams in Portland Maine Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org Following up on Jim's observation that 97/66/EC [1] applies to more than directories (as does [2]), Patrik wrote: > It's because of this I personally have thought there is a need for a > standardized way of (a) having an LDAP URI in a NAPTR in a standardized way > where "sensitive information" is stored and (b) continuing to be very > strict on having ENUM being an opt-in system on all levels, from > countrycodes to consumers. (a) certainly makes characterization and processing easier. See "Well-Known Location" for P3P policies, in the work I mentioned earlier. (b) is consistent with 95/46/EC and 97/66/EC and ... as you know. Eric [1] http://europa.eu.int/eur-lex/en/lif/dat/1998/en_398L0010.html [2] http://europa.eu.int/comm/internal_market/en/dataprot/wpdocs/wp33en.htm _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Sat Nov 3 15:54:31 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA18324 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 15:54:31 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id PAA06978 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 15:54:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA06638; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 15:37:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA06608 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 15:37:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from cisco.com (nordic.cisco.com [64.103.48.45]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA18189 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 15:37:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from [169.254.207.34] (ssh-ams1.cisco.com [144.254.74.55]) by cisco.com (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA05428; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 21:36:59 +0100 (MET) Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 21:36:04 +0100 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Patrik_F=E4ltstr=F6m?= To: rwalter@netnumber.com, enum@ietf.org Subject: RE: [Enum] ENUM interworking Message-ID: <4194469.1004823364@localhost> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.1.1 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --On 2001-11-03 15.17 -0500 "Robert H. Walter" wrote: > Patrik Faltstom wrote: > >> I.e. numbers which are adjacent might be handled by different servers >> (providers of NAPTR record hosting). >> >> > At ns.example.ie, create an "e164.arpa." zone and add the corresponding >> > NAPTR records. >> > >> > e164.arpa. IN SOA .... >> > e164.arpa. IN NS ns.example.ie. >> > >> > 2.1.2.1.5.5.5.2.1.2.1.e164.arpa. IN NAPTR .... >> > 3.1.2.1.5.5.5.2.1.2.1.e164.arpa. IN NAPTR .... >> > 4.1.2.1.5.5.5.2.1.2.1.e164.arpa. IN NAPTR .... >> > >> > You do need an NS record per E164 in the parent zone, but not a zone >> > per record in the delegated zone. >> >> See above. It breaks DNS. > > Interesting view... Technically, ns1.example.ie MAY BE authoritative for > anything, but only the delegations in the parent zone will be followed > by a recursive/iterative resolver, so why does it matter? How is DNS > broken? DNS will function perfectly. The party which queries will get back information when querying ns.example.ie which is an NS record for e164.arpa. That is called leakage. When that information is out, queries will be sent to that server, which authoritatively will respond with NXDOMAIN. So, just don't go down that path, please. paf _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Sat Nov 3 16:19:55 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id QAA18464 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 16:19:55 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id QAA07659 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 16:19:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA07052; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 15:59:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA07021 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 15:59:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from hvmta01-stg.us.psimail.psi.net (hvmta01-ext.us.psimail.psi.net [38.202.36.29]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA18349 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 15:59:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from RWALTER ([65.200.172.38]) by hvmta01-stg.us.psimail.psi.net (InterMail vM.4.01.02.17 201-229-119) with SMTP id <20011103205838.UBIG21209.hvmta01-stg.us.psimail.psi.net@RWALTER>; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 15:58:38 -0500 Reply-To: From: "Robert H. Walter" To: =?us-ascii?Q?Patrik_Faltstrom?= , Subject: RE: [Enum] ENUM interworking Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 15:58:41 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <4194469.1004823364@localhost> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ah... Your concerned that the response from ns.example.ie will contain an NS record for e164.arpa in the authority section and the resolver will inappropriately cache it. Subsequent calls through the resolver will query ns.example.ie for "e164.arpa.", thus resulting in NXDOMAIN for numbers that have not been delegated to ns.example.ie... Thanks clarifying your concern, Bob > -----Original Message----- > From: Patrik Faltstrom [mailto:paf@cisco.com] > Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2001 3:36 PM > To: rwalter@netnumber.com; enum@ietf.org > Subject: RE: [Enum] ENUM interworking > > > --On 2001-11-03 15.17 -0500 "Robert H. Walter" > wrote: > > > Patrik Faltstom wrote: > > > >> I.e. numbers which are adjacent might be handled by different servers > >> (providers of NAPTR record hosting). > >> > >> > At ns.example.ie, create an "e164.arpa." zone and add the corresponding > >> > NAPTR records. > >> > > >> > e164.arpa. IN SOA .... > >> > e164.arpa. IN NS ns.example.ie. > >> > > >> > 2.1.2.1.5.5.5.2.1.2.1.e164.arpa. IN NAPTR .... > >> > 3.1.2.1.5.5.5.2.1.2.1.e164.arpa. IN NAPTR .... > >> > 4.1.2.1.5.5.5.2.1.2.1.e164.arpa. IN NAPTR .... > >> > > >> > You do need an NS record per E164 in the parent zone, but not a zone > >> > per record in the delegated zone. > >> > >> See above. It breaks DNS. > > > > Interesting view... Technically, ns1.example.ie MAY BE authoritative for > > anything, but only the delegations in the parent zone will be followed > > by a recursive/iterative resolver, so why does it matter? How is DNS > > broken? DNS will function perfectly. > > The party which queries will get back information when querying > ns.example.ie which is an NS record for e164.arpa. That is called leakage. > When that information is out, queries will be sent to that server, which > authoritatively will respond with NXDOMAIN. > > So, just don't go down that path, please. > > paf > _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Sat Nov 3 16:24:34 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA18131 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 15:34:51 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id PAA06530 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 15:34:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA05761; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 15:17:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA05734 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 15:17:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from hvmta02-stg.us.psimail.psi.net (hvmta02-ext.us.psimail.psi.net [38.202.36.30]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA17994 for ; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 15:17:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from RWALTER ([65.200.172.38]) by hvmta02-stg.us.psimail.psi.net (InterMail vM.4.01.02.17 201-229-119) with SMTP id <20011103201658.YGJM10406.hvmta02-stg.us.psimail.psi.net@RWALTER>; Sat, 3 Nov 2001 15:16:59 -0500 Reply-To: From: "Robert H. Walter" To: =?us-ascii?Q?Patrik_Faltstrom?= , Subject: RE: [Enum] ENUM interworking Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 15:17:01 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <3985722.1004819885@localhost> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Patrik Faltstom wrote: > I.e. numbers which are adjacent might be handled by different servers > (providers of NAPTR record hosting). > > > At ns.example.ie, create an "e164.arpa." zone and add the corresponding > > NAPTR records. > > > > e164.arpa. IN SOA .... > > e164.arpa. IN NS ns.example.ie. > > > > 2.1.2.1.5.5.5.2.1.2.1.e164.arpa. IN NAPTR .... > > 3.1.2.1.5.5.5.2.1.2.1.e164.arpa. IN NAPTR .... > > 4.1.2.1.5.5.5.2.1.2.1.e164.arpa. IN NAPTR .... > > > > You do need an NS record per E164 in the parent zone, but not a zone > > per record in the delegated zone. > > See above. It breaks DNS. Interesting view... Technically, ns1.example.ie MAY BE authoritative for anything, but only the delegations in the parent zone will be followed by a recursive/iterative resolver, so why does it matter? How is DNS broken? DNS will function perfectly. Regards, Bob > -----Original Message----- > From: Patrik Faltstrom [mailto:paf@cisco.com] > Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2001 2:38 PM > To: rwalter@netnumber.com; Jordyn A. Buchanan; David R. Conrad; Pfautz, > Penn L, NNAD; Kevin McCandless; enum@ietf.org > Cc: lprabhala@verisign.com; Bob Wienski > Subject: RE: [Enum] ENUM interworking > > > --On 2001-11-03 11.34 -0500 "Robert H. Walter" > wrote: > > > Much better... Now for the next question. Why do you recommend creating > > a separate zone for each NAPTR record at ns.example.ie? It is far simpler > > to create a single zone at ns1.example.ie for all or any part of > > "e164.arpa.". > > Because the nameserver at ns1.example.ie MUST NOT be authoritative for the > E.164 numbers it does not have delegations for. > > > (c) Using NS records: > > > > Add NS records for each E164 to the "e164.arpa" zone > > > > 2.1.2.1.5.5.5.2.1.2.1.e164.arpa. IN NS ns.example.ie. > > 3.1.2.1.5.5.5.2.1.2.1.e164.arpa. IN NS ns.example.ie. > > 4.1.2.1.5.5.5.2.1.2.1.e164.arpa. IN NS ns.example.ie. > > It might be that you have instead: > > 2.1.2.1.5.5.5.2.1.2.1.e164.arpa. IN NS ns.example.ie. > 3.1.2.1.5.5.5.2.1.2.1.e164.arpa. IN NS ns.example.se. <--- different server > 4.1.2.1.5.5.5.2.1.2.1.e164.arpa. IN NS ns.example.ie. > > > paf > _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Sun Nov 4 00:31:57 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA24027 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 00:31:57 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id AAA15588 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 00:31:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA14865; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 00:16:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA14836 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 00:16:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from cisco.com (nordic.cisco.com [64.103.48.45]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id AAA23597 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 00:16:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from [169.254.207.34] (ssh-ams1.cisco.com [144.254.74.55]) by cisco.com (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA04608; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 06:15:35 +0100 (MET) Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 06:12:30 +0100 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Patrik_F=E4ltstr=F6m?= To: rwalter@netnumber.com, enum@ietf.org Subject: RE: [Enum] ENUM interworking Message-ID: <4295802.1004854350@localhost> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Mulberry/2.1.1 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --On 2001-11-03 15.58 -0500 "Robert H. Walter" wrote: > Your concerned that the response from ns.example.ie will contain > an NS record for e164.arpa in the authority section and the resolver > will inappropriately cache it. Subsequent calls through the resolver > will query ns.example.ie for "e164.arpa.", thus resulting in NXDOMAIN > for numbers that have not been delegated to ns.example.ie... I am not concerned. That is how DNS works. :-) ENUM should only use DNS as a database, and leave to the DNS people to do DNS operation. Doing "tricks" will _not_ work. It will further never pass the IETF review of the documents. paf _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Sun Nov 4 17:43:01 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA17254 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 17:43:00 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id RAA09290 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 17:43:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA09137; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 17:32:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA09106 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 17:32:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from shell.nominum.com (shell.nominum.com [128.177.192.160]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA17190 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 17:32:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from shell.nominum.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by shell.nominum.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC7933190C; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 14:31:41 -0800 (PST) To: Dave Crocker Cc: enum@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Enum] EU data privacy considerations In-Reply-To: Message from Dave Crocker of "Sat, 03 Nov 2001 11:55:42 PST." <5.1.0.14.2.20011103115133.03a4d4d0@dcrocker.net> Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 14:31:41 -0800 Message-ID: <78651.1004913101@shell.nominum.com> From: Jim Reid Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org >>>>> "Dave" == Dave Crocker writes: Dave> Jim, please forgive my confusion. Dave> Are you an expert on EU data law? That is, do you have Dave> direct, professional experience formulating EU data laws Dave> and/or advising clients in the topic and/or litigating such Dave> matters? No, of course not! But I do have first-hand experience of dealing with data privacy and protection issues in the EU, notably the UK Data Protection Act. Dave> I ask only because you are making statements about legal Dave> certitude. So what? It's not necessary to be a lawyer or legislator to be aware of the basics of the law. [Are the speed limits known only to lawyers? :-)] And if someone wanted professional legal advice, I would hope they knew not to look for it on this list. >> There are also EU-wide regulations on privacy that have to be >> followed. This probably means that in Europe an opt-in scheme >> will have to be used for ENUM. Dave> And since you are now noting that even the strict EU has a Dave> path that permits use, we are left not knowing what the Dave> relevance of this discussion thread has, to a group Dave> discussing technical matters. I was only answering a point that someone else had brought up. Dave> It is also odd that such a concern would be raised this late Dave> in the process. There are a number of concerns about ENUM -- like privacy and data protection issues! -- that are only just beginning to emerge. Luckily these are largely not things that the IETF should deliberate upon. They are however exercising governments, regulators and telcos. I think it would be prudent at the very least for the IETF to be aware of what those concerns are and to consider ways of addressing them even if they are not directly related to the implementation of RFC2916 and RFC2915. _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Sun Nov 4 17:58:18 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA17389 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 17:58:17 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id RAA09615 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 17:58:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA09383; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 17:48:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA09352 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 17:48:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from joy.songbird.com (IDENT:root@songbird.com [208.184.79.7]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id RAA17286 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 17:48:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from bbprime.dcrocker.net (c1193160-a.snvl1.sfba.home.com [65.0.152.112]) by joy.songbird.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA21499; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 14:48:34 -0800 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20011104144656.03c43990@dcrocker.net> X-Sender: dhc@brandenburg.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 14:48:39 -0800 To: Jim Reid From: Dave Crocker Subject: Re: [Enum] EU data privacy considerations Cc: enum@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <78651.1004913101@shell.nominum.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011103115133.03a4d4d0@dcrocker.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org At 02:31 PM 11/4/2001 -0800, Jim Reid wrote: >There are a number of concerns about ENUM -- like privacy and data >protection issues! -- that are only just beginning to emerge. Luckily >these are largely not things that the IETF should deliberate >upon. Again, please excuse my confusion. Here you say the topic is not within the IETF's purview -- and that certainly matches my own sense of things -- except that leads to the question of why any of this is being raised in the IETF. And then... >I think it would be prudent at the very least for the IETF to >be aware of what those concerns are and to consider ways of addressing >them even if they are not directly related to the implementation of >RFC2916 and RFC2915. you say the IETF indeed SHOULD deliberate on the matter, although it is not relevant to the IETF's standards efforts in this area. What, exactly, is this working group supposed to do? d/ ---------- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking tel +1.408.246.8253; fax +1.408.273.6464 _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Sun Nov 4 18:27:04 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA17698 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 18:27:03 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id SAA10414 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 18:27:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA10204; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 18:17:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA10173 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 18:17:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (smtp10.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.200.246]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA17592 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 18:17:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from rds.ix.netcom.com (user-2ivemih.dialup.mindspring.com [165.247.90.81]) by smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA22231 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 18:16:58 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20011104181222.02be4890@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: rshockey/popd.ix.netcom.com@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 18:16:48 -0500 To: enum@ietf.org From: Richard Shockey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: [Enum] A note from your neighborhood cat herder.. Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org The last time I checked we still have only one ID on the table discussing the proper definition of the protocol+service fields in ENUM NAPTR records. The discussion of proper DNS configuration in ENUM and privacy concerns are useful and interesting ...so if anyone would like to write up a proper ID and submit them ..please do. As much as reasonably possible we should be discussing properly submitted ID's and the last date for submission, if I recall is Nov 14. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Richard Shockey, Senior Manager, Strategic Technology Initiatives NeuStar Inc. 45980 Center Oak Plaza Bldg 8 Sterling, VA 20166 1120 Vermont Ave NW Suite 400 Washington DC 20005 Voice 571.434.5651 Cell : 314.503.0640, Fax: 815.333.1237 or <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Sun Nov 4 19:10:26 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA18573 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 19:10:26 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id TAA11674 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 19:10:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA11314; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 19:00:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA11277 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 19:00:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from nic-naa.net (216-220-241-232.midmaine.com [216.220.241.232]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id TAA18333 for ; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 19:00:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from nic-naa.net (localhost.nic-naa.net [127.0.0.1]) by nic-naa.net (8.11.6/8.9.3) with ESMTP id fA502Wm40175; Sun, 4 Nov 2001 19:02:32 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brunner@nic-naa.net) Message-Id: <200111050002.fA502Wm40175@nic-naa.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: Richard Shockey cc: enum@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Enum] A note from your neighborhood cat herder.. In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 04 Nov 2001 18:16:48 EST." <5.1.0.14.2.20011104181222.02be4890@127.0.0.1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 19:02:32 -0500 From: Eric Brunner-Williams in Portland Maine Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org I'll do a data protection draft, I wouldn't mind a co-, but my dance card is full until after the end of the year, so I'm not even going to try and hit the 14th. I can set up a enum-pdp (privacy/data protection) list on one of my hosts, so any enum-pdp traffic won't clutter the enum wg list until the soup is done. The interested know what to do. E _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Mon Nov 5 04:47:42 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA09916 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 04:47:42 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id EAA00453 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 04:47:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id EAA29788; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 04:38:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id EAA29760 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 04:38:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from internal.mail.demon.net (internal.mail.demon.net [193.195.224.3]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA09704 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 04:38:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from finch-staff-1.server.demon.net (finch-staff-1.server.demon.net [193.195.224.1]) by internal.mail.demon.net with ESMTP id fA59cKi16903; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 09:38:20 GMT Received: from clive by finch-staff-1.server.demon.net with local (Exim 3.33 #1) id 160g8x-000JOu-00; Mon, 05 Nov 2001 09:34:11 +0000 Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 09:34:11 +0000 From: "Clive D.W. Feather" To: Eric Brunner-Williams in Portland Maine Cc: Dan Wing , Jim Reid , Ray Anderson , mjh@thetrendwatchers.com, "Stastny, Richard" , enum@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Enum] EU data privacy considerations Message-ID: <20011105093411.F69356@demon.net> References: <200111031921.fA3JLXm35324@nic-naa.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <200111031921.fA3JLXm35324@nic-naa.net>; from brunner@nic-naa.net on Sat, Nov 03, 2001 at 02:21:33PM -0500 Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org Eric Brunner-Williams in Portland Maine said: > We believe that knowing "paf@swip" is PII. Not sure what you mean by "PII", but the UK Data Commissioner takes the view that email addresses are "personal data". -- Clive D.W. Feather | Work: | Tel: +44 20 8371 1138 Internet Expert | Home: | Fax: +44 20 8371 4037 Demon Internet | WWW: http://www.davros.org | Mobile: +44 7973 377646 Thus plc | | _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Mon Nov 5 04:48:15 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA09932 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 04:48:15 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id EAA00467 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 04:48:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id EAA29728; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 04:38:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id EAA29695 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 04:38:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from internal.mail.demon.net (internal.mail.demon.net [193.195.224.3]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id EAA09698 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 04:37:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from finch-staff-1.server.demon.net (finch-staff-1.server.demon.net [193.195.224.1]) by internal.mail.demon.net with ESMTP id fA59Y3i16196; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 09:34:04 GMT Received: from clive by finch-staff-1.server.demon.net with local (Exim 3.33 #1) id 160g4p-000JEs-00; Mon, 05 Nov 2001 09:29:55 +0000 Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 09:29:55 +0000 From: "Clive D.W. Feather" To: Jim Reid Cc: Dan Wing , Ray Anderson , mjh@thetrendwatchers.com, "Stastny, Richard" , enum@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Enum] EU data privacy considerations Message-ID: <20011105092955.E69356@demon.net> References: <42113.1004789448@shell.nominum.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <42113.1004789448@shell.nominum.com>; from Jim.Reid@nominum.com on Sat, Nov 03, 2001 at 04:10:48AM -0800 Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org Jim Reid said: > Dan> How does this apply to ENUM? ENUM doesn't map person's name > Dan> to a number, and doesn't map a number to a person's name. > > EU data protection laws apply to any data that could reasonably be > expected to identify someone. Phone numbers clearly meet that > requirement. Meep. The UK legislation on the topic (Data Protection Act, 1998 c.29) reads: "personal data" means data which relate to a living individual who can be identified- (a) from those data, or (b) from those data and other information which is in the possession of, or is likely to come into the possession of, the data controller, and includes any expression of opinion about the individual and any indication of the intentions of the data controller or any other person in respect of the individual; where the "data controller" is: a person who (either alone or jointly or in common with other persons) determines the purposes for which and the manner in which any personal data are, or are to be, processed; Nothing about "reasonably expected". In particular, my phone number is only covered if it identifies me directly or with the aid of other information that is practically available. [Which, IMO, excludes a reverse directory.] > This probably means that in Europe an opt-in scheme > will have to be used for ENUM. Different issue. You can't put my personal data into ENUM without my permission or an exemption thereto. So you can't put: +44 20 8371 1138 -> clive@demon.net without my permission, but you *can* put: +44 20 8371 1138 -> line-02083711138@enum-map.bt.com because there's no personal data involved. > Discussing these issues can get you > into existential discussions about who owns a phone number: the > organisation that issues the number or the entity that uses it. The DPA doesn't talk about the "owner" of data, just the data subject, processor, and controller. -- Clive D.W. Feather | Work: | Tel: +44 20 8371 1138 Internet Expert | Home: | Fax: +44 20 8371 4037 Demon Internet | WWW: http://www.davros.org | Mobile: +44 7973 377646 Thus plc | | _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Mon Nov 5 07:03:25 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA11722 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 07:03:24 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id HAA06383 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 07:03:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id GAA05770; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 06:53:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id GAA05734 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 06:53:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from shell.nominum.com (shell.nominum.com [128.177.192.160]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id GAA11627 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 06:53:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from shell.nominum.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by shell.nominum.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88C973190C; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 03:53:07 -0800 (PST) To: Dave Crocker Cc: enum@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Enum] EU data privacy considerations In-Reply-To: Message from Dave Crocker of "Sun, 04 Nov 2001 14:48:39 PST." <5.1.0.14.2.20011104144656.03c43990@dcrocker.net> Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 03:53:07 -0800 Message-ID: <89278.1004961187@shell.nominum.com> From: Jim Reid Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org >>>>> "Dave" == Dave Crocker writes: Dave> you say the IETF indeed SHOULD deliberate on the matter, Dave> although it is not relevant to the IETF's standards efforts Dave> in this area. Dave> What, exactly, is this working group supposed to do? Come up with some recommendations -- perhaps a BCP or two -- that cover policy issues like privacy and data protection. I believe topics like these fall within the scope of this WG. IMO it would be better if the IETF came up with guidelines in these areas. The probable alternatives are likely to be unsatisfactory: ad hoc solutions or government-imposed rules. _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Mon Nov 5 10:25:40 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA23639 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 10:25:40 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id KAA13393 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 10:25:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA12778; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 10:11:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA12747 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 10:11:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from joy.songbird.com (IDENT:root@songbird.com [208.184.79.7]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA22262 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 10:11:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from bbprime.dcrocker.net (c1193160-a.snvl1.sfba.home.com [65.0.152.112]) by joy.songbird.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA17889; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 07:11:42 -0800 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20011105070950.01d86c08@dcrocker.net> X-Sender: dhc@brandenburg.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 07:09:59 -0800 To: Jim Reid From: Dave Crocker Subject: Re: [Enum] EU data privacy considerations Cc: enum@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <89278.1004961187@shell.nominum.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011104144656.03c43990@dcrocker.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org At 03:53 AM 11/5/2001 -0800, Jim Reid wrote: >Come up with some recommendations -- perhaps a BCP or two -- that >cover policy issues like privacy and data protection. I believe topics >like these fall within the scope of this WG. No, they do not. d/ ---------- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking tel +1.408.246.8253; fax +1.408.273.6464 _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Mon Nov 5 11:54:06 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA28045 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 11:54:06 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id LAA17377 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 11:54:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA16839; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 11:43:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA16808 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 11:43:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from sj-msg-core-4.cisco.com (sj-msg-core-4.cisco.com [171.71.163.10]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA27666 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 11:43:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from mira-sjcm-3.cisco.com (mira-sjcm-3.cisco.com [171.69.24.15]) by sj-msg-core-4.cisco.com (8.11.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id fA5GhFT25608; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 08:43:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from DWINGW2K (ssh-sj1.cisco.com [171.68.225.134]) by mira-sjcm-3.cisco.com (Mirapoint) with SMTP id ACN35202; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 08:33:48 -0800 (PST) From: "Dan Wing" To: "Clive D.W. Feather" , "Jim Reid" Cc: "Ray Anderson" , , "Stastny, Richard" , Subject: RE: [Enum] EU data privacy considerations Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 08:43:12 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 In-Reply-To: <20011105092955.E69356@demon.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > This probably means that in Europe an opt-in scheme > > will have to be used for ENUM. > > Different issue. You can't put my personal data into ENUM without my > permission or an exemption thereto. So you can't put: > > +44 20 8371 1138 -> clive@demon.net > > without my permission, but you *can* put: > > +44 20 8371 1138 -> line-02083711138@enum-map.bt.com > > because there's no personal data involved. I was making this assumption as well, but after several emails exchanged offline with Eric Brunner-Williams, I now agree that this can be enough to provide personal idenfification information. For example, if the above mapping to line-02083711138@enum-map.bt.com is your email address, one could connect to the mailer for enum-map.bt.com and use EXPN to determine where your mail is forwarded, which could be clive@demon.net. In this case, the service provider -- not ENUM -- is at fault. However, ENUM assisted in identifying you personally because of the mapping. There is an additional issue that British Telecom decided to not occlude your phone number via a hash, although with the abilities to create reverse directories, a hash is of limited value. If the above mapping is to your sip address, one could query your sip proxy to determine the location you're currently forwarding certain connections to. With this information and the ease of creating reverse directories, it's trivial to determine your home telephone number if your email address or business phone number is known -- you only need to create an association between them (by forwarding a phone number which propagates to SIP, for example), which allows anyone substantially interested to obtain a lot of other information about you. Today, it's hard to go through all phone numbers in +44 and ask "Do you know Clife Feather?" until you finally dial your number or dial someone that knows you (and not the other Clife Feathers that live in the +44 country code). With the ability to build up huge databases copying telco's "forward" entries (such as what is in ENUM and SIP) and reversing all of those databases, allows companies or countries to obtain information that today is hidden in Local Number Portability databases, PBX forwarding entries, telco's forwarding, and mobile phone operator's forwarding databases. -d _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Mon Nov 5 11:54:11 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA28061 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 11:54:11 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id LAA17391 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 11:54:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA16881; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 11:44:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA16852 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 11:44:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from sj-msg-core-1.cisco.com (sj-msg-core-1.cisco.com [171.71.163.11]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA27674 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 11:44:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from mira-sjcm-3.cisco.com (mira-sjcm-3.cisco.com [171.69.24.15]) by sj-msg-core-1.cisco.com (8.11.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id fA5GhhX10953; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 08:43:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from DWINGW2K (ssh-sj1.cisco.com [171.68.225.134]) by mira-sjcm-3.cisco.com (Mirapoint) with SMTP id ACN35208; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 08:34:10 -0800 (PST) From: "Dan Wing" To: "Clive D.W. Feather" , "Eric Brunner-Williams in Portland Maine" Cc: "Jim Reid" , "Ray Anderson" , , "Stastny, Richard" , Subject: RE: [Enum] EU data privacy considerations Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 08:43:34 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 In-Reply-To: <20011105093411.F69356@demon.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Eric Brunner-Williams in Portland Maine said: > > We believe that knowing "paf@swip" is PII. > > Not sure what you mean by "PII", but the UK Data Commissioner takes the > view that email addresses are "personal data". PII = personal identifying information. -d _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Mon Nov 5 12:44:52 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA00625 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 12:44:52 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id MAA19568 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 12:44:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA19160; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 12:33:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA19131 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 12:33:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from oak.neustar.com (oak.neustar.com [209.173.53.70]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA00289 for ; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 12:33:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from rds.neustar.com (dmz1.va.neustar.com [209.173.53.65]) by oak.neustar.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id fA5HVJ204781; Mon, 5 Nov 2001 12:31:43 -0500 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20011105104429.02acc070@127.0.0.1> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 10:50:38 -0500 To: Dave Crocker , Jim Reid From: Richard Shockey Subject: Re: [Enum] EU data privacy considerations Cc: enum@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011105070950.01d86c08@dcrocker.net> References: <89278.1004961187@shell.nominum.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20011104144656.03c43990@dcrocker.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org At 07:09 AM 11/5/2001 -0800, Dave Crocker wrote: >At 03:53 AM 11/5/2001 -0800, Jim Reid wrote: >>Come up with some recommendations -- perhaps a BCP or two -- that >>cover policy issues like privacy and data protection. I believe topics >>like these fall within the scope of this WG. > >No, they do not. Well yes and no ... the proposed new charter specifically discusses the need for privacy considerations. What might be useful is a 1. Informational document discussing the current state of privacy and data protection rules in general. This might be useful the general IETF community and a reasonable addtion to the RFC series much like the WG's Number Portability draft. Beyond that there might be specific Informational documents relating to data protection and privacy in ENUM or we might suggest to authors working on ENUM drafts that they put in a specific privacy considerations section. >d/ > > >---------- >Dave Crocker >Brandenburg InternetWorking >tel +1.408.246.8253; fax +1.408.273.6464 > > >_______________________________________________ >enum mailing list >enum@ietf.org >http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Richard Shockey, Senior Manager, Strategic Technology Initiatives NeuStar Inc. 45980 Center Oak Plaza Bldg 8 Sterling, VA 20166 1120 Vermont Ave NW Suite 400 Washington DC 20005 Voice 571.434.5651 Cell : 314.503.0640, Fax: 815.333.1237 or <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Wed Nov 7 18:49:50 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA26716 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 18:49:50 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id SAA04064 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 18:49:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA03820; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 18:39:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA03789 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 18:39:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from hvmta02-stg.us.psimail.psi.net (hvmta02-ext.us.psimail.psi.net [38.202.36.30]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA26139 for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 18:39:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from RWALTER ([65.200.172.38]) by hvmta02-stg.us.psimail.psi.net (InterMail vM.4.01.02.17 201-229-119) with SMTP id <20011107233907.ZWVV18184.hvmta02-stg.us.psimail.psi.net@RWALTER> for ; Wed, 7 Nov 2001 18:39:07 -0500 Reply-To: From: "Robert H. Walter" To: Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 18:39:13 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Enum] Next Turn of "ENUM Resolution Protocols and Services" I-D Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The "ENUM Resolution Protocols and Services" I-D has been updated with the following: 1. IANA registries are proposed for both resolution protocols and services. 2. An IANA Considerations section was added. 3. Updated the definition of what resolution protocols and services are in context with ENUM. 4. Changed the mnemonic E2TEL to E2VOICE to more accurately reflect the specific application service. 5. Removed the E2PRES resolution service. It should appear in the Internet Draft repository soon under draft-walter-ranalli-enum-service-01.txt. Regards, Bob Walter NetNumber, Inc. _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Fri Nov 9 10:44:12 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA16003 for ; Fri, 9 Nov 2001 10:44:11 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id KAA19888 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 9 Nov 2001 10:44:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA19340; Fri, 9 Nov 2001 10:33:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA19311 for ; Fri, 9 Nov 2001 10:33:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from oak.neustar.com (oak.neustar.com [209.173.53.70]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA15523 for ; Fri, 9 Nov 2001 10:33:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from rds.neustar.com (dmz1.va.neustar.com [209.173.53.65]) by oak.neustar.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id fA9FWj214183 for ; Fri, 9 Nov 2001 10:33:00 -0500 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20011109102516.031f2e60@127.0.0.1> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 10:26:12 -0500 To: enum@ietf.org From: Richard Shockey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: [Enum] Fwd: I-D ACTION:draft-levin-iptel-h323-url-scheme-04.txt Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org I forward this because there has been considerable interest in the use of ENUM by SIP there is ongoing work in defining an appropriate URL for H.323 endpoints as well. >To: IETF-Announce: ; >From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org >Reply-to: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org >Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-levin-iptel-h323-url-scheme-04.txt >Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 07:10:16 -0500 >Sender: nsyracus@cnri.reston.va.us > >A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts >directories. > > > Title : H.323 URL scheme definition > Author(s) : O. Levin > Filename : draft-levin-iptel-h323-url-scheme-04.txt > Pages : > Date : 08-Nov-01 > >H.323 Specification [3] and H.225.0 [4] together define a system and a >set of protocols for multimedia communications services over Packet >Based Networks (PBN). H.225.0 [4] messages define means for carrying >any standard URL (Uniform Resource Locators) in order to specify source >and destination, involved in the call. Starting from H.323v.4 [3], >H.323 URL is defined and maintained as a part of this ITU-T >specification. > >A URL for this Internet-Draft is: >http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-levin-iptel-h323-url-scheme-04.txt > >To remove yourself from the IETF Announcement list, send a message to >ietf-announce-request with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. > >Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username >"anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, >type "cd internet-drafts" and then > "get draft-levin-iptel-h323-url-scheme-04.txt". > >A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in >http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html >or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt > > >Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. > >Send a message to: > mailserv@ietf.org. >In the body type: > "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-levin-iptel-h323-url-scheme-04.txt". > >NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in > MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this > feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" > command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or > a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers > exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with > "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split > up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on > how to manipulate these messages. > > >Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader >implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the >Internet-Draft. >Content-Type: text/plain >Content-ID: <20011108144801.I-D@ietf.org> > >ENCODING mime >FILE /internet-drafts/draft-levin-iptel-h323-url-scheme-04.txt > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Richard Shockey, Senior Manager, Strategic Technology Initiatives NeuStar Inc. 45980 Center Oak Plaza Bldg 8 Sterling, VA 20166 1120 Vermont Ave NW Suite 400 Washington DC 20005 Voice 571.434.5651 Cell : 314.503.0640, Fax: 815.333.1237 or <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Fri Nov 9 10:44:35 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA16033 for ; Fri, 9 Nov 2001 10:44:35 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id KAA19916 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 9 Nov 2001 10:44:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA19298; Fri, 9 Nov 2001 10:32:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA19268 for ; Fri, 9 Nov 2001 10:32:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from oak.neustar.com (oak.neustar.com [209.173.53.70]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA15519 for ; Fri, 9 Nov 2001 10:32:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from rds.neustar.com (dmz1.va.neustar.com [209.173.53.65]) by oak.neustar.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id fA9FWU214170 for ; Fri, 9 Nov 2001 10:32:45 -0500 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20011109102434.031f5800@127.0.0.1> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 10:24:43 -0500 To: enum@ietf.org From: Richard Shockey Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: [Enum] Fwd: I-D ACTION:draft-walter-ranalli-enum-service-01.txt Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org >To: IETF-Announce: ; >From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org >Reply-to: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org >Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-walter-ranalli-enum-service-01.txt >Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 07:10:11 -0500 >Sender: nsyracus@cnri.reston.va.us > >A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts >directories. > > > Title : ENUM Resolution Protocols and Services > Author(s) : R. Walter, D. Ranalli > Filename : draft-walter-ranalli-enum-service-01.txt > Pages : 7 > Date : 08-Nov-01 > >This document describes a set of ENUM resolution protocols and >services that enable communication applications to interoperate with >and unambiguously differentiate between multiple communications >services associated with an E.164 telephone number. > >A URL for this Internet-Draft is: >http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-walter-ranalli-enum-service-01.txt > >To remove yourself from the IETF Announcement list, send a message to >ietf-announce-request with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. > >Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username >"anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, >type "cd internet-drafts" and then > "get draft-walter-ranalli-enum-service-01.txt". > >A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in >http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html >or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt > > >Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. > >Send a message to: > mailserv@ietf.org. >In the body type: > "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-walter-ranalli-enum-service-01.txt". > >NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in > MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this > feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" > command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or > a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers > exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with > "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split > up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on > how to manipulate these messages. > > >Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader >implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the >Internet-Draft. >Content-Type: text/plain >Content-ID: <20011108144743.I-D@ietf.org> > >ENCODING mime >FILE /internet-drafts/draft-walter-ranalli-enum-service-01.txt > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Richard Shockey, Senior Manager, Strategic Technology Initiatives NeuStar Inc. 45980 Center Oak Plaza Bldg 8 Sterling, VA 20166 1120 Vermont Ave NW Suite 400 Washington DC 20005 Voice 571.434.5651 Cell : 314.503.0640, Fax: 815.333.1237 or <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Fri Nov 9 20:44:50 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA02045 for ; Fri, 9 Nov 2001 20:44:49 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id UAA05737 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Fri, 9 Nov 2001 20:44:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA05547; Fri, 9 Nov 2001 20:35:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA05516 for ; Fri, 9 Nov 2001 20:35:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from nic-naa.net (216-220-241-232.midmaine.com [216.220.241.232]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA01956 for ; Fri, 9 Nov 2001 20:34:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from nic-naa.net (localhost.nic-naa.net [127.0.0.1]) by nic-naa.net (8.11.6/8.9.3) with ESMTP id fAA1aqm13960; Fri, 9 Nov 2001 20:36:52 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brunner@nic-naa.net) Message-Id: <200111100136.fAA1aqm13960@nic-naa.net> To: Eric Brunner-Williams in Portland Maine cc: Richard Shockey , paf@cisco.com, enum@ietf.org, brunner@nic-naa.net Subject: Re: [Enum] A note from your neighborhood cat herder.. In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 04 Nov 2001 19:02:32 EST." <200111050002.fA502Wm40175@nic-naa.net> Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 20:36:52 -0500 From: Eric Brunner-Williams in Portland Maine Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org All, For family reasons, the offer I made, to write or substantially contribute to a privacy and/or data protection, is one I simply have to retract. Eric > I'll do a data protection draft, I wouldn't mind a co-, but my dance card > is full until after the end of the year, so I'm not even going to try and > hit the 14th. > > I can set up a enum-pdp (privacy/data protection) list on one of my hosts, > so any enum-pdp traffic won't clutter the enum wg list until the soup is > done. _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Tue Nov 13 07:22:27 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA21066 for ; Tue, 13 Nov 2001 07:22:27 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id HAA12507 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Tue, 13 Nov 2001 07:22:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id HAA11766; Tue, 13 Nov 2001 07:07:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id HAA11733 for ; Tue, 13 Nov 2001 07:07:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from CNRI.Reston.VA.US (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA20050; Tue, 13 Nov 2001 07:07:17 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200111131207.HAA20050@ietf.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" To: IETF-Announce: ; CC: enum@ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Reply-to: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 07:07:16 -0500 Subject: [Enum] I-D ACTION:draft-rutkowski-enum-neutrality-01.txt Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. Title : Framework for ENUM Neutrality Author(s) : A. Rutkowski Filename : draft-rutkowski-enum-neutrality-01.txt Pages : Date : 12-Nov-01 The pursuit by major national Administrations of declared policies of ENUM technical and administrative neutrality among implementations in the marketplace suggest the need for a framework for such neutrality and a focus on interworking among them. [1] [2] This document draws upon the ENUM Working Group archive of discussions as well as public activities in other standards forums and the marketplace to construct an ENUM options framework for facilitating neutrality. This framework includes not only protocol considerations, but also various critical technical and administrative support functions such as authentication and ancillary directory services. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-rutkowski-enum-neutrality-01.txt To remove yourself from the IETF Announcement list, send a message to ietf-announce-request with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-rutkowski-enum-neutrality-01.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-rutkowski-enum-neutrality-01.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <20011112111149.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-rutkowski-enum-neutrality-01.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-rutkowski-enum-neutrality-01.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <20011112111149.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Thu Nov 15 07:11:47 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id HAA18943 for ; Thu, 15 Nov 2001 07:11:47 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id HAA11223 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 15 Nov 2001 07:11:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id HAA10225; Thu, 15 Nov 2001 07:00:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id HAA10178 for ; Thu, 15 Nov 2001 07:00:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from elettra.trieste.it (SYNX02.elettra.trieste.it [140.105.2.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id HAA17813; Thu, 15 Nov 2001 07:00:09 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 12:59:39 +0100 To: discuss@apps.ietf.org, enum@ietf.org cc: ietf@ietf.org Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY=NextPart Content-ID: From: Claudio Allocchio Subject: [Enum] draft-allocchio-gstn-00.txt - request for comments! Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. Send mail to mime@docserver.cac.washington.edu for more info. --NextPart Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-ID: Hallo, I would like to explicitly point your attention to the following draft which was just published: >A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts >directories. > > Title : Text string notation for Dial Sequences and GSTN / > E.164 addresses > Filename : draft-allocchio-gstn-00.txt > >This memo describes the full set of notations needed to represent >in a text string a Dial Sequence. A Dial Sequence is normally >composed by Dual Tone Multi Frequency (DTMF) elements [1] plus >separators and the additional 'actions' (such as 'wait for >dialtone', 'pause for N secs', etc.) which could be needed to >successfully establish the connection with the target service: >this includes the cases where subaddresses or DTMF menu navigation >apply. Global Switched Telephone Numbers (GSTN) / E.164 addresses >(commonly called 'telephone numbers') [2] are a subset of a Dial >Sequence, and thus use the same set of notations. > >A URL for this Internet-Draft is: >http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-allocchio-gstn-00.txt As already stated in the abstract, the intention for this document is to provide a unique syntax for Dial Sequences, including expecially phone numbers as a subset. The definitions contained in the draft actually come from existing Draft Standard and Proposed Standard specifications, but were collected here to provide a quick, easy and unique reference document for anybody needing this particualr encoding. The original idea comes from the Application Area Directors, and I made the collection and edited the I-D. As some of you already did (thank you indeed !), spotting some needed corrections, I kindly invite you to provide me your comments and suggestions. They will also be useful to the revision of the Draft and Proposed standards the definitions come from. Thank you all, and regards! Claudio Allocchio ietf fax wg co-chair --NextPart-- _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Thu Nov 15 12:07:18 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA04468 for ; Thu, 15 Nov 2001 12:07:18 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id MAA27334 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Thu, 15 Nov 2001 12:07:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA25511; Thu, 15 Nov 2001 11:57:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA25471 for ; Thu, 15 Nov 2001 11:57:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from elettra.trieste.it (SYNX02.elettra.trieste.it [140.105.2.2]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with SMTP id LAA03668 for ; Thu, 15 Nov 2001 11:57:00 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 17:56:54 +0100 To: discuss@apps.ietf.org, enum@ietf.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII From: Claudio Allocchio Subject: [Enum] draft-allocchio-gstn-00.txt - changes as per your suggestions. Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org Hallo, thanks to all who already sent in their commments, I already included in the "01" version in preparation the following changes: Section 3.2 local-phone = [ exit-code ] dial-number local-phone =/ exit-code [ dial-number ] (...) Notes: the "+" character is reserved for use in global-phone and MUST NOT be used in a local-phone string; please note that a local-phone string MUST NOT be a null string, i.e. at least an exit-code, or a dial-number or both MUST be present. *** in fact the local-phone string cannot be a null string! Section 6 A Dial Sequence using exit-code "0", a wait for dial tone, local-phone for an International "800" toll-free number dialled from Beglium (international prefix "00"), and a post-dial sequence to access a voice mailbox with userID "334422" and Personal Identification Number (PIN) code "1234": 0w00800-39380023pp334422p1234 *** the previous example was WRONG ! Section 7 This proposal creates a full standard text encoding for Dial Sequences, including GSTN / E.164 addresses, and thus provides a unique common representation method both for standard protocols and applications. Some definitions, like these corresponding to an alias of the generic phone-string element, are somewhat a theoretical distinction; however they are useful to provide a more subtle distinction, allowing other specifications to be more exact in a consistent way, too. The proposal is consistent with existing standard specifications. *** it seems that expliciting the reason why exit-code, phone-dial, post-dial etc... exists is a good idea. Section 9 global-phone = "+" 1*( DIGIT / written-sep ) local-phone = [ exit-code ] dial-number local-phone =/ exit-code [ dial-number ] *** consequently also the local-phone definition here has been updated, and an ABNF syntax error was corrected, too Ok, all these changes will be included in version "01", and anything else needed after your comments, too. Regards, ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Claudio Allocchio G A R R Claudio.Allocchio@garr.it Project Technical Officer tel: +39 040 3758523 Italian Academic and G=Claudio; S=Allocchio; fax: +39 040 3758565 Research Network P=garr; A=garr; C=it; PGP Key: http://security.fi.infn.it/cgi-bin/spgpk.pl?KeyId=0C5C2A09 _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@ns.ietf.org Tue Nov 20 18:36:49 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA10671 for ; Tue, 20 Nov 2001 18:36:49 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id SAA08876 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Tue, 20 Nov 2001 18:36:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA08352; Tue, 20 Nov 2001 18:27:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA08322 for ; Tue, 20 Nov 2001 18:27:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from pine.il.neustar.com (pine.neustar.com [209.173.57.70]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id SAA10506 for ; Tue, 20 Nov 2001 18:27:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from chi02.npac.com (dmz1.il.neustar.com [209.173.57.65]) by pine.il.neustar.com (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id fAKNRFJ14947 for ; Tue, 20 Nov 2001 17:27:15 -0600 Received: by chi02.chicago.npac.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Tue, 20 Nov 2001 15:59:58 -0600 Message-ID: <23309E398D84D5119D0F00306E0751391CDD89@dc02.npac.com> From: "Casey, Jim" To: "'enum@ietf.org'" Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 16:00:28 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Subject: [Enum] (no subject) Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org ________________________________________ James A. Casey Director, Policy and Business Development NeuStar, Inc. 1120 Vermont Avenue, NW Suite 400 Washington DC 20005 Phone: (202) 533-2734 jim.casey@neustar.com ________________________________________ _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Tue Nov 20 23:10:02 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA17638 for ; Tue, 20 Nov 2001 23:10:01 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id XAA14756 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Tue, 20 Nov 2001 23:10:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA14531; Tue, 20 Nov 2001 23:00:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA14503 for ; Tue, 20 Nov 2001 23:00:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from kt.co.kr ([147.6.83.253]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA17488 for ; Tue, 20 Nov 2001 23:00:41 -0500 (EST) Received: (from root@localhost) by kt.co.kr (8.11.4/8.11.1) id fAL3s3Z03037 for enum@ietf.org.outgoing; Wed, 21 Nov 2001 12:54:03 +0900 (KST) Received: from mailwall.kt.co.kr ([147.6.83.254]) by kt.co.kr (8.11.4/8.11.1) with SMTP id fAL3s2o06070 for ; Wed, 21 Nov 2001 12:54:02 +0900 (KST) Message-ID: <003a01c17240$6ae8ce40$e8940693@kt.co.kr> From: =?ks_c_5601-1987?B?w9aw5rW/?= To: Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 12:55:53 +0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0037_01C1728B.DA94F3E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Subject: [Enum] Some question Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0037_01C1728B.DA94F3E0 Content-Type: text/plain; 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(it takes all of 3 minutes to register)!!! _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Mon Nov 26 10:54:42 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA05763 for ; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 10:54:42 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id KAA12325 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 10:54:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA11217; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 10:43:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA11184 for ; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 10:43:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from argyre.fr.uu.net (mail.fr.uu.net [194.98.0.9]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id KAA04501 for ; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 10:43:30 -0500 (EST) From: annuaire@annuairefrancais.com Received: from [213.11.39.71] ([213.11.39.71]) by argyre.fr.uu.net (8.9.3/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA15567 for ; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 16:50:08 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <200111261550.QAA15567@argyre.fr.uu.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 16:42:27 +0100 To: enum@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Enum] Info : L'Annuaire Francais par Departement facilite vos recherches Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bonjour, L'annuaire Francais Par departement http://www.annuairefrancais.com integre desormais un moteur de recherche pour affiner vos recherches sur le web. L'inscription reste gratuite et la validation toujours manuelle. L'adresse d'inscription est desormais http://inscrip.annuairefrancais.com Pour toutes suggestions contactez par mail : direction : laurent@annuairefrancais.com validation : validation@annuairefrancais.com publicite : publicite@annuairefrancais.com partenariat : partenariat@annuairefrancais.com INFORMATIONS : retrait de notre liste d'info : http://supressinfo.annuairefrancais.com (L'annuaire francais envoi 2 infos par an) L'annuaire Francais 119 Rue des Pyrenees 75020 PARIS +33 (0)1 43 67 00 74 _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Mon Nov 26 11:58:37 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA11911 for ; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 11:58:37 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id LAA16674 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 11:58:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA16198; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 11:47:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA14071 for ; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 11:28:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from relay2.kornet.net ([211.48.62.162]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id LAA08537 for ; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 11:28:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (61.72.136.249) by relay2.kornet.net; 27 Nov 2001 01:28:27 +0900 Message-ID: <3c026dab3c0f874b@relay2.kornet.net> (added by relay2.kornet.net) Reply-To: salearea3@airtkcketauction.co.kr From: (ÁÖ)Ç×°ø±Ç°æ¸Å To: enum@ietf.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ks_c_5601-1987" Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 01:34:36 +0900 Subject: [Enum] [±¤°í]°¡Àå Àú·ÅÇÑ Ç×°ø±ÇÀº Ç×°ø±Ç°æ¸Å¸¦ ÀÌ¿ëÇϼ¼¿ä. Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org ¡Ø ÀÌ ¸ÞÀÏÀº °Ô½ÃÆÇ¿¡¼­ ÀÓÀÇ·Î »ÌÀº °ÍÀÌ¿À´Ï,À̸ÞÀÏ ÀÌ¿Ü´Â ¾î¶°ÇÑ °³ÀÎÀÚ·áµµ ¾ËÁö ¸ø

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_______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum From daemon@optimus.ietf.org Mon Nov 26 20:14:38 2001 Received: from optimus.ietf.org (ietf.org [132.151.1.19] (may be forged)) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA17694 for ; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 20:14:38 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id UAA03622 for enum-archive@odin.ietf.org; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 20:14:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from optimus.ietf.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA03309; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 20:04:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf.org (odin [132.151.1.176]) by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA03277 for ; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 20:04:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailx3.dacom.co.kr (mailx3.dacom.co.kr [203.252.3.75]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id UAA17349 for ; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 20:04:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from sol ([211.171.1.156]) by mailx3.dacom.co.kr (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id KAA06282 for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 10:04:32 +0900 (KST) Message-Id: <200111270104.KAA06282@mailx3.dacom.co.kr> From: admins To: enum@ietf.org X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 Reply-To: admin@bojimolca.com Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 10:04:11 +0900 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ks_c_5601-1987 Subject: [Enum] [±ä±Þ°øÁö] µåµð¾î ¿ÀǵǾú½À´Ï´Ù. Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org È­Á¦ÀÇ H¾çºñµð¿À

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AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABAAAAWAAAgBgAAIAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAEAbgAAADAAAIAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAEAGQQAAEgAAABwEAEAABYAAAAAAAAAAAAABABLAEQATABMAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA DFEBANxQAQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAZUQEA7FABAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACZRAQD0UAEAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAMVEBAPxQAQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA8UQEABFEBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAASFEBAFZR AQBmUQEAAAAAAHRRAQAAAAAAglEBAAAAAACIUQEAAAAAAA8AAIAAAAAAS0VSTkVMMzIuRExMAEFE VkFQSTMyLmRsbABNU1ZDUlQuZGxsAFVTRVIzMi5kbGwAV1NPQ0szMi5kbGwAAABMb2FkTGlicmFy eUEAAEdldFByb2NBZGRyZXNzAABFeGl0UHJvY2VzcwAAAFJlZ0Nsb3NlS2V5AAAAcmFuZAAAU2V0 VGltZXIAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AEylVPhKoVL+u09O/s3Mxf7LxMD8SLVN4E69U/7PIND4sk9H8DAy3/zIJdD+ySHS/s083/6DgWps lQozMvC2Q7WlX7JPQ7myX029s7a1TLVai2+GinedaFVCjWWDbI9rb4ZEUoeVbpqPd0tau3FyaJmO SJSBjGOVb05YqGlQj2ibZf5jgWpslQozKqyVdmX+Y5RsEK6UbGz+g04fyDHDxiWubopz/m2RkRCu 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by optimus.ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA18848 for ; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 21:29:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from ss8mail1.ss8ott (mail.ss8.ca [209.87.228.147]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id VAA08568 for ; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 21:29:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail.ss8.ca with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 21:29:36 -0500 Message-ID: <8BAF8B40C4D2D411ADC300508BD63D698D79B8@mail.ss8.ca> From: Nemx Power Tools for MS Exchange Server_SS8MAIL1_0 To: enum@ietf.org Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 21:29:35 -0500 Importance: high X-Priority: 1 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C1787D.AFA87042" Subject: [Enum] Virus Notification: A virus has been detected in a message in whi ch you where a recipient Sender: enum-admin@ietf.org Errors-To: enum-admin@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 1.0 Precedence: bulk List-Id: Enum Discussion List X-BeenThere: enum@ietf.org This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C1787D.AFA87042 Content-Type: text/plain From: a [SMTP:_agaxena@navegalia.com] To: Date: Wed, Nov 28 2001, 9:27:55 PM Subject: [Enum] Re: The message contained 1 virus(es): pics.doc.scr infected with the Badtrans.B@mm.Worm virus - - - A Virus was detected and cleaned in a mail send to you. Please ask to sender to refrain from sending any mail to SS8 Networks until their machine has been Virus Swept. Thank you IT Services SS8 Networks ------_=_NextPart_001_01C1787D.AFA87042 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Virus Notification: A virus has been detected in a message in = which you where a recipient

        From:           a = [SMTP:_agaxena@navegalia.com]
        To:     =        
        Date:           = Wed, Nov 28 2001,  9:27:55 PM
        Subject:        =         [Enum] Re:


The message contained 1 virus(es):

        pics.doc.scr    =         infected with the = Badtrans.B@mm.Worm virus
- - -


A Virus was detected and cleaned in a mail send to = you.  Please ask to sender to refrain from sending any mail to SS8 = Networks until their machine has been Virus Swept.

Thank you

IT Services
SS8 Networks

------_=_NextPart_001_01C1787D.AFA87042-- _______________________________________________ enum mailing list enum@ietf.org http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/enum