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(Resending to add to archive)
=20

  _____ =20

From: Wang,Weiming [mailto:wmwang@mail.hzic.edu.cn]=20
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 11:40 PM
To: Steve Blake; Robert Haas; Putzolu, David; Patrick Droz; Khosravi,
Hormuzd M; Jon Maloy; Jamal Hadi Salim; Dong, Ligang; Chaoping Wu; Alex
Audu; Wang, Guangming; Guo, Yunfei
Subject: Re: ForCES protocol merger


Hi Hormuzd,
=20
That seems a good beginning for the process. I'll send some comments
later soon.
=20
One thing I have to mention, it seems mainly I who needs to forward the
post to several others. If you=20
mean to all protocol authors, could you add some more to your mail list
so that I can do less? The guys I
need to forward are  donglg@mail.hzic.edu.cn; gmwang@mail.hzic.edu.cn;
gyf@htrdc.com .
=20
Thank you.
=20
Weiming
=20
----- Original Message -----=20

	From: Khosravi, Hormuzd M <mailto:hormuzd.m.khosravi@intel.com>

	To: Steven Blake <mailto:slblake@torrentnet.com>  ; Jamal Hadi
Salim <mailto:hadi@znyx.com>  ; Robert Haas <mailto:rha@zurich.ibm.com>
; Jon Maloy <mailto:jon.maloy@ericsson.com>  ; ram.gopal@nokia.com ;
alex.audu@alcatel.com ; chaopingwu@comcast.net ; Wang,Weiming
<mailto:wmwang@mail.hzic.edu.cn> =20
	Cc: Putzolu, David <mailto:david.putzolu@intel.com>  ; Patrick
Droz <mailto:dro@zurich.ibm.com> =20
	Sent: Friday, February 20, 2004 8:16 AM
	Subject: ForCES protocol merger
=09
=09
	Hi All
	=20
	Here is a protocol brainstorming doc that David and myself put
together to start the discussion on protocol merger
	and try and find some common principles that we can work off. I
have included all the protocol authors that I am aware of
	in this email. Feel free to forward this to any other folks that
I might have missed out.
	=20
	Pls send your comments on this doc to everyone. Hope we can
start some fruitful discussion on this topic.
	=20
	=20
	Thanks
	Hormuzd
	=20


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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Message</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1400" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D274413021-26022004><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>(Resending to add to =
archive)</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
<HR tabIndex=3D-1>
<FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> Wang,Weiming=20
[mailto:wmwang@mail.hzic.edu.cn] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, February 19, =
2004=20
11:40 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Steve Blake; Robert Haas; Putzolu, David; Patrick =
Droz;=20
Khosravi, Hormuzd M; Jon Maloy; Jamal Hadi Salim; Dong, Ligang; Chaoping =
Wu;=20
Alex Audu; Wang, Guangming; Guo, Yunfei<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: ForCES =
protocol=20
merger<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hi Hormuzd,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>That seems a good beginning for the =
process. I'll=20
send some comments later soon.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>One thing I have&nbsp;to mention, it=20
seems&nbsp;mainly I who needs to forward the&nbsp;post to several =
others. If you=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>mean to&nbsp;</FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>all=20
protocol authors, could you add some more to your mail list so that I =
can do=20
less? The guys I</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>need to forward are&nbsp; <A=20
href=3D"mailto:donglg@mail.hzic.edu.cn">donglg@mail.hzic.edu.cn</A>; <A=20
href=3D"mailto:gmwang@mail.hzic.edu.cn">gmwang@mail.hzic.edu.cn</A>;&nbsp=
; <A=20
href=3D"mailto:gyf@htrdc.com">gyf@htrdc.com</A>&nbsp;.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thank you.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Weiming</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3Dhormuzd.m.khosravi@intel.com=20
  href=3D"mailto:hormuzd.m.khosravi@intel.com">Khosravi, Hormuzd M</A> =
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dslblake@torrentnet.com=20
  href=3D"mailto:slblake@torrentnet.com">Steven Blake</A> ; <A =
title=3Dhadi@znyx.com=20
  href=3D"mailto:hadi@znyx.com">Jamal Hadi Salim</A> ; <A =
title=3Drha@zurich.ibm.com=20
  href=3D"mailto:rha@zurich.ibm.com">Robert Haas</A> ; <A=20
  title=3Djon.maloy@ericsson.com =
href=3D"mailto:jon.maloy@ericsson.com">Jon=20
  Maloy</A> ; <A title=3Dram.gopal@nokia.com=20
  href=3D"mailto:ram.gopal@nokia.com">ram.gopal@nokia.com</A> ; <A=20
  title=3Dalex.audu@alcatel.com=20
  href=3D"mailto:alex.audu@alcatel.com">alex.audu@alcatel.com</A> ; <A=20
  title=3Dchaopingwu@comcast.net=20
  href=3D"mailto:chaopingwu@comcast.net">chaopingwu@comcast.net</A> ; <A =

  title=3Dwmwang@mail.hzic.edu.cn=20
  href=3D"mailto:wmwang@mail.hzic.edu.cn">Wang,Weiming</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A =
title=3Ddavid.putzolu@intel.com=20
  href=3D"mailto:david.putzolu@intel.com">Putzolu, David</A> ; <A=20
  title=3Ddro@zurich.ibm.com href=3D"mailto:dro@zurich.ibm.com">Patrick =
Droz</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, February 20, 2004 =
8:16=20
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> ForCES protocol =
merger</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT><FONT=20
  face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D605014623-19022004>Hi=20
  All</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D605014623-19022004></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D605014623-19022004>Here =
is a protocol=20
  brainstorming doc that David and myself put together to start the =
discussion=20
  on protocol merger</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D605014623-19022004>and =
try and find=20
  some common principles that we can work off. I have included all the =
protocol=20
  authors that I am aware of</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D605014623-19022004>in =
this email.=20
  Feel free to forward this to any other folks that I might have missed=20
  out.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D605014623-19022004></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D605014623-19022004>Pls =
send your=20
  comments on this doc to everyone. Hope we can start some fruitful =
discussion=20
  on this topic.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D605014623-19022004></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D605014623-19022004></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D605014623-19022004>Thanks</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D605014623-19022004>Hormuzd</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
  =
class=3D605014623-19022004></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY>=
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-----Original Message-----
From: Jamal Hadi Salim [mailto:hadi@znyx.com]=20
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2004 6:59 AM
To: Khosravi, Hormuzd M
Cc: Steven Blake; Robert Haas; Jon Maloy; ram.gopal@nokia.com;
alex.audu@alcatel.com; chaopingwu@comcast.net; Wang,Weiming; Putzolu,
David; Patrick Droz; jeff pickering
Subject: Re: ForCES protocol merger


I have added to the list Jeff Pickering who is a new couathor for us.

To start i will say that the netlink2 people are interested in being on
this boat. For this reason we have not releasd an updated netlink2
draft.

I dont like the brainstorming document as a starter.
Brainstorming can be done via emails or concals. And please no word
docs.
Our attempt in Mineapolis was in the wrong direction because there
were no ground rules on how to proceed. We need to agree on some ground
rules first otherwise we are going to end in some deadlock.=20
I am going to suggest one which i came up with after the last
meeting:

As in any conflict, people should be open to giving up some things in
order to reach a compromise. I can understand that this may not be=20
100% technical driven; what i am hoping for is to have less than 5%
policitical drive.
This is the main reason i suggested that each protocol authors list what
they cant live without. Lets iron that out so we can reduce conflict.
For each item draft authors cant live without, the how and justification
of why must be listed.=20
In the IETF typical approach of such "cant live without mechanisms"
would be based on implementation and deployment experience. I have to
say i learnt a few things on implementing netlink2 that i would have
previously disagreed with - so that approach is useful.

I will try to be open hoping it is the correct thing to do to avoid
conflict:
Speaking from a political/bussiness side for myself: we have implemented
the full netlink2 which means we have invested time and resources in it
(and infact have deployed it in one site). However,
we are willing to throw all that away provided there will be progress
here which is not driven by politics rather by a technical drive.

So lets start with a list of ground rules.

cheers,
jamal


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From: "Putzolu, David" <david.putzolu@intel.com>
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(Resending to add to archive)

  _____ =20

From: Khosravi, Hormuzd M=20
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 4:16 PM
To: 'Steven Blake'; 'Jamal Hadi Salim'; 'Robert Haas'; 'Jon Maloy';
'ram.gopal@nokia.com'; 'alex.audu@alcatel.com';
'chaopingwu@comcast.net'; 'Wang,Weiming'
Cc: Putzolu, David; 'Patrick Droz'
Subject: ForCES protocol merger


Hi All
=20
Here is a protocol brainstorming doc that David and myself put together
to start the discussion on protocol merger
and try and find some common principles that we can work off. I have
included all the protocol authors that I am aware of
in this email. Feel free to forward this to any other folks that I might
have missed out.
=20
Pls send your comments on this doc to everyone. Hope we can start some
fruitful discussion on this topic.
=20
=20
Thanks
Hormuzd
=20

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Message</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1400" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D274413021-26022004><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>(Resending to add to =
archive)</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
<HR tabIndex=3D-1>
<FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> Khosravi, Hormuzd M =
<BR><B>Sent:</B>=20
Thursday, February 19, 2004 4:16 PM<BR><B>To:</B> 'Steven Blake'; 'Jamal =
Hadi=20
Salim'; 'Robert Haas'; 'Jon Maloy'; 'ram.gopal@nokia.com';=20
'alex.audu@alcatel.com'; 'chaopingwu@comcast.net'; =
'Wang,Weiming'<BR><B>Cc:</B>=20
Putzolu, David; 'Patrick Droz'<BR><B>Subject:</B> ForCES protocol=20
merger<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D605014623-19022004>Hi=20
All</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D605014623-19022004></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D605014623-19022004>Here =
is a protocol=20
brainstorming doc that David and myself put together to start the =
discussion on=20
protocol merger</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D605014623-19022004>and =
try and find=20
some common principles that we can work off. I have included all the =
protocol=20
authors that I am aware of</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D605014623-19022004>in =
this email. Feel=20
free to forward this to any other folks that I might have missed=20
out.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D605014623-19022004></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D605014623-19022004>Pls =
send your=20
comments on this doc to everyone. Hope we can start some fruitful =
discussion on=20
this topic.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D605014623-19022004></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D605014623-19022004></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D605014623-19022004>Thanks</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D605014623-19022004>Hormuzd</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D605014623-19022004></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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(Resending to add to archive)=20

-----Original Message-----
From: Khosravi, Hormuzd M=20
Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 6:39 PM
To: Putzolu, David; 'hadi@znyx.com'; 'gmwang@mail.hzic.edu.cn';
'donglg@mail.hzic.edu.cn'; 'spyros.denazis@hitachi-eu.com'; 'Steven
Blake'; 'Robert Haas'; 'ram.gopal@nokia.com'; 'alex.audu@alcatel.com';
'Wang,Weiming'; 'Patrick Droz'; 'jeff pickering'; 'avri@acm.org';
Deleganes, Ellen M; 'gyf@htrdc.com'; 'zsolt.haraszti@ericsson.com'
Subject: RE: ForCES Protocol Analysis Design Team Administrivia

Hi All,

I am personally fine with the proposal by Jamal to list=20
any features the protocol authors cant live without.=20

Jamal, are there any other ground rules you have in mind ?
Why don't you send a list of features which you would like=20
to see and we can start the discussion from there ?

Thanks
Hormuzd

-----Original Message-----
From: Putzolu, David=20
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2004 9:49 AM
To: hadi@znyx.com; Khosravi, Hormuzd M; gmwang@mail.hzic.edu.cn;
donglg@mail.hzic.edu.cn; spyros.denazis@hitachi-eu.com; Steven Blake;
Robert Haas; ram.gopal@nokia.com; alex.audu@alcatel.com; Wang,Weiming;
Patrick Droz; jeff pickering; avri@acm.org; Deleganes, Ellen M;
gyf@htrdc.com; 'zsolt.haraszti@ericsson.com'; Putzolu, David
Subject: ForCES Protocol Analysis Design Team Administrivia


All,

This email is going out to all of the current design
team volunteers.  In order to avoid problems with
long to/cc lists, I've asked the IETF to setup a temporary
reflector for us to use, and will subscribe all of us to
it once it is setup.  With any luck it will be ready
by Monday or Tuesday.

If you know of someone who volunteered for the team, but
is not on the recipient list of this email, please have
them contact me.

This team is chartered with examining the aspects of the
currently existing protocol proposals, seeing what common
ground there is, and determining whether the common ground
is sufficient for coming up with a single merged proposal.
The design team is to report out to the ForCES list by
March 20, 2004 (one month from today).

Below is an email that some of you received.  I've included=20
it for the benefit of those who did not receive it.

Given the concern with word docs I think either emails
or (when necessary) PDF are reasonable formats.  I've
converted a word doc previously sent out by Hormuzd to=20
PDF format and put it on the web for those who missed it:
http://www.sstanamera.com/~forces/proto/ForCESProtoDiscussion1.pdf

Below are some ground rules proposed by Jamal.  Are=20
people comfortable with them/are there any additions
that should be made?

Cheers,
David


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jamal Hadi Salim [mailto:hadi@znyx.com]=20
> Sent: Friday, February 20, 2004 6:59 AM
> To: Khosravi, Hormuzd M
> Cc: Steven Blake; Robert Haas; Jon Maloy;=20
> ram.gopal@nokia.com; alex.audu@alcatel.com;=20
> chaopingwu@comcast.net; Wang,Weiming; Putzolu, David; Patrick=20
> Droz; jeff pickering
> Subject: Re: ForCES protocol merger
>=20
>=20
> I have added to the list Jeff Pickering who is a new couathor for us.
>=20
> To start i will say that the netlink2 people are interested=20
> in being on
> this boat. For this reason we have not releasd an updated netlink2
> draft.
>=20
> I dont like the brainstorming document as a starter.
> Brainstorming can be done via emails or concals. And please no word
> docs.
> Our attempt in Mineapolis was in the wrong direction because there
> were no ground rules on how to proceed. We need to agree on=20
> some ground
> rules first otherwise we are going to end in some deadlock.=20
> I am going to suggest one which i came up with after the last
> meeting:
>=20
> As in any conflict, people should be open to giving up some things in
> order to reach a compromise. I can understand that this may not be=20
> 100% technical driven; what i am hoping for is to have less than 5%
> policitical drive.
> This is the main reason i suggested that each protocol=20
> authors list what
> they cant live without. Lets iron that out so we can reduce conflict.
> For each item draft authors cant live without, the how and=20
> justification
> of why must be listed.=20
> In the IETF typical approach of such "cant live without mechanisms"
> would be based on implementation and deployment experience. I have to
> say i learnt a few things on implementing netlink2 that i would have
> previously disagreed with - so that approach is useful.
>=20
> I will try to be open hoping it is the correct thing to do to avoid
> conflict:
> Speaking from a political/bussiness side for myself: we have=20
> implemented
> the full netlink2 which means we have invested time and=20
> resources in it
> (and infact have deployed it in one site). However,
> we are willing to throw all that away provided there will be progress
> here which is not driven by politics rather by a technical drive.
>=20
> So lets start with a list of ground rules.
>=20
> cheers,
> jamal
>=20
>=20

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(Resending to add to archive)=20

-----Original Message-----
From: avri@acm.org [mailto:avri@acm.org]=20
Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 7:22 PM
To: Khosravi, Hormuzd M
Cc: hadi@znyx.com; gmwang@mail.hzic.edu.cn; alex.audu@alcatel.com;
Deleganes, Ellen M; gyf@htrdc.com; Steven Blake;
donglg@mail.hzic.edu.cn; Patrick Droz; spyros.denazis@hitachi-eu.com;
Robert Haas; ram.gopal@nokia.com; jeff pickering; Wang,Weiming; Putzolu,
David; zsolt.haraszti@ericsson.com
Subject: Re: ForCES Protocol Analysis Design Team Administrivia

Hi,

I too think this is a good start.  I am also wondering whether there is=20
any value in the non-authors writing up a list of the features they=20
value from each of the 3 proposals.

a.


On 26 feb 2004, at 11.39, Khosravi, Hormuzd M wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> I am personally fine with the proposal by Jamal to list
> any features the protocol authors cant live without.
>
> Jamal, are there any other ground rules you have in mind ?
> Why don't you send a list of features which you would like
> to see and we can start the discussion from there ?
>
> Thanks
> Hormuzd
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Putzolu, David
> Sent: Friday, February 20, 2004 9:49 AM
> To: hadi@znyx.com; Khosravi, Hormuzd M; gmwang@mail.hzic.edu.cn;
> donglg@mail.hzic.edu.cn; spyros.denazis@hitachi-eu.com; Steven Blake;
> Robert Haas; ram.gopal@nokia.com; alex.audu@alcatel.com; Wang,Weiming;
> Patrick Droz; jeff pickering; avri@acm.org; Deleganes, Ellen M;
> gyf@htrdc.com; 'zsolt.haraszti@ericsson.com'; Putzolu, David
> Subject: ForCES Protocol Analysis Design Team Administrivia
>
>
> All,
>
> This email is going out to all of the current design
> team volunteers.  In order to avoid problems with
> long to/cc lists, I've asked the IETF to setup a temporary
> reflector for us to use, and will subscribe all of us to
> it once it is setup.  With any luck it will be ready
> by Monday or Tuesday.
>
> If you know of someone who volunteered for the team, but
> is not on the recipient list of this email, please have
> them contact me.
>
> This team is chartered with examining the aspects of the
> currently existing protocol proposals, seeing what common
> ground there is, and determining whether the common ground
> is sufficient for coming up with a single merged proposal.
> The design team is to report out to the ForCES list by
> March 20, 2004 (one month from today).
>
> Below is an email that some of you received.  I've included
> it for the benefit of those who did not receive it.
>
> Given the concern with word docs I think either emails
> or (when necessary) PDF are reasonable formats.  I've
> converted a word doc previously sent out by Hormuzd to
> PDF format and put it on the web for those who missed it:
> http://www.sstanamera.com/~forces/proto/ForCESProtoDiscussion1.pdf
>
> Below are some ground rules proposed by Jamal.  Are
> people comfortable with them/are there any additions
> that should be made?
>
> Cheers,
> David
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Jamal Hadi Salim [mailto:hadi@znyx.com]
>> Sent: Friday, February 20, 2004 6:59 AM
>> To: Khosravi, Hormuzd M
>> Cc: Steven Blake; Robert Haas; Jon Maloy;
>> ram.gopal@nokia.com; alex.audu@alcatel.com;
>> chaopingwu@comcast.net; Wang,Weiming; Putzolu, David; Patrick
>> Droz; jeff pickering
>> Subject: Re: ForCES protocol merger
>>
>>
>> I have added to the list Jeff Pickering who is a new couathor for us.
>>
>> To start i will say that the netlink2 people are interested
>> in being on
>> this boat. For this reason we have not releasd an updated netlink2
>> draft.
>>
>> I dont like the brainstorming document as a starter.
>> Brainstorming can be done via emails or concals. And please no word
>> docs.
>> Our attempt in Mineapolis was in the wrong direction because there
>> were no ground rules on how to proceed. We need to agree on
>> some ground
>> rules first otherwise we are going to end in some deadlock.
>> I am going to suggest one which i came up with after the last
>> meeting:
>>
>> As in any conflict, people should be open to giving up some things in
>> order to reach a compromise. I can understand that this may not be
>> 100% technical driven; what i am hoping for is to have less than 5%
>> policitical drive.
>> This is the main reason i suggested that each protocol
>> authors list what
>> they cant live without. Lets iron that out so we can reduce conflict.
>> For each item draft authors cant live without, the how and
>> justification
>> of why must be listed.
>> In the IETF typical approach of such "cant live without mechanisms"
>> would be based on implementation and deployment experience. I have to
>> say i learnt a few things on implementing netlink2 that i would have
>> previously disagreed with - so that approach is useful.
>>
>> I will try to be open hoping it is the correct thing to do to avoid
>> conflict:
>> Speaking from a political/bussiness side for myself: we have
>> implemented
>> the full netlink2 which means we have invested time and
>> resources in it
>> (and infact have deployed it in one site). However,
>> we are willing to throw all that away provided there will be progress
>> here which is not driven by politics rather by a technical drive.
>>
>> So lets start with a list of ground rules.
>>
>> cheers,
>> jamal
>>
>>
>


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(Resending to add to archive)=20

-----Original Message-----
From: avri@acm.org [mailto:avri@acm.org]=20
Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 7:29 PM
To: Putzolu, David; Patrick Droz
Cc: Jamal Hadi Salim; Steven Blake; jeff pickering; Deleganes, Ellen M;
Weiming Wang; <alex.audu@alcatel.com>; <ram.gopal@nokia.com>;
<spyros.denazis@hitachi-eu.com>; <gyf@htrdc.com>;
<zsolt.haraszti@ericsson.com>; Robert Haas; <donglg@mail.hzic.edu.cn>;
Khosravi, Hormuzd M; <gmwang@mail.hzic.edu.cn>
Subject: Re: ForCES Protocol Analysis Design Team Administrivia


On another topic:

Is it worth setting up a mailing list for this effort?  I could=20
probably set it up on one of the servers I use if there is a desire for=20
that to be done.

a.


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(Resending to add to archive)=20

-----Original Message-----
From: Wang,Weiming [mailto:wmwang@mail.hzic.edu.cn]=20
Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 12:35 AM
To: avri; Alex Audu; Chaoping Wu; Deleganes, Ellen M; Dong, Ligang; Guo,
Yunfei; Jamal Hadi Salim; Jeff Pickering; Jon Maloy; Khosravi, Hormuzd
M; Patrick Droz; Putzolu, David; Robert Haas; Spyros Denazis; Steve
Blake; Wang Weiming; Wang, Guangming
Subject: Re: ForCES Protocol Analysis Design Team Administrivia

Hi David,

Regarding the proposed basic principles, we (GRMP group) have some
comments for  principles item 7&8:
--------
7.      The ForCES protocol should support separate channels for Control
and Data messages. The data=20
channel carries the routing/control protocol packets such as RIP, OSPF
packets, between the CEs and FEs.=20
These packets are unique in most cases for a particular CE:FE pair and
hence the data channel will use unicast=20
connections between the CEs and FEs. Also, the data channel does not
have to be strictly reliable but does=20
need to provide flow/congestion control to protect against DoS attacks.

8.      The control channel must provide strict reliability
(non-corruption, no loss, no reordering, timeliness) at the=20
transport level in accordance with the RFC 3654. In addition, ForCES
protocol level responses/acknowledgements=20
are also needed from FE to CE to learn the results of
configuration/control messages.
--------

First of all, we agree that to distinguish ForCES messages into control
messages and data (redirect) messages are=20
essential for DoS protection scheme. Then, we argue that to separate the
two kinds of messages into two different=20
transport channels with the data channel being appointed to a lower
reliable level (such as UDP, compared with TCP)=20
may not be a good enough scheme for such purpose. The reasons are:

1. The data (redirect) ForCES messages seem have no reason to be
appointed to a lower reliability, compared with=20
control channel messages.  We may needn't  to argue how important some
of the redirected messages are for a=20
router (an NE), we just argue that  the reliability for ForCES data
message transport should not be lower than that of the=20
connection over which the routing/control protocol packets  are
transported. An example is the BGP protocol messages,=20
which have already been assigned to use TCP instead of UDP for the
transports. We think the communication between CEs=20
and FEs (which is inside an NE) has no reason to greatly induce extra
performance loss other than that from outside of=20
an NE for such routing protocol packets. By saying this, we don't mean
all ForCES messages should not be loaded over UDP,=20
we just propose that it's may be too early to distinguish the redirect
messages from other configuration messages inside ForCES=20
protocol specifications.

2. Generally speaking, separated C channel and D channel are still put
over the same physical link (or else there is almost=20
no need to protect DoS).  Therefore,  such a separation itself does not
provide any DoS protection, instead, the protection is=20
obtained by the rate control of D channel. We argue that  such a rate
control actually can be obtained at the ForCES message=20
layer instead of at the message transport layer. Some of our experiment
results (which will be presented at the IETF meeting)=20
have shown this feasibility.  Moreover, a separation at transport layer
surely will complicate the CE-FE association and the=20
followed message transport management.=20

3.  We have also noticed a phenomenon during our experiments, which we
may need to pay some attention. I recalled when=20
FACT first presented the D and C channel idea,  there was a question
worrying about the asyncronization between D and C channel. =20
Our experiments have shown that,  although there is no strict
asyncronization problem between D and C channel owing to the data=20
independence, there is a possibility that D channel packets may be
seriously delayed and even blocked owing to the busy traffic at=20
C channel if D packets are separated from C packets. The busy traffic at
C channel may happen when CE queries FE for something=20
and FE dumps quite a huge number of messages (such as routing table
items.)  Such a delay or blocking may be counted in seconds,=20
resulted in very harmful effect on the users of redirected packets.  As
a result, we propose that a moderate rate control for C channel=20
be also necessary.=20

4. To explicitly separate D and C channel also consumes more resources,
because a resources for D channel have to be reserved.=20
Instead, by separating D and C packets at the ForCES protocol layer and
uniting them again at the transport layer, we may able to=20
make a scheduling discipline by which the D and C packets can share the
link resources effectively. We are trying to construct such=20
a scheduling scheme, and it seems quite practical to so.

To summarize, we propose that the 7&8 basic principles only mention the
separation of D and C packets for DoS protection currently,=20
leaving some space for further discussions. The discussions may be like:


1. Should such a separation be put at the ForCES message layer or at the
transport layer?  Which is better?
2. Whether united scheduling for D and C packets are necessary?
3. Should D packets be distinguished from C packets for its transport
reliability in ForCES protocol so as to assign a different transport
means?

Regarding the protocol merge proposal, we'd like to present some of our
thinking in a few words:

Firstly, as a new comer to IETF work, the GRMP group surely welcome such
a merge proposal, sincerely hoping an all merits in=20
one draft can be achieved for ForCES WG, and at the same time hoping to
learn from other candidate authors, whom we have=20
already been respecting to for their rich knowledge and excellent
contributions to IETF and other fields. Secondly, we believe=20
that the interaction among the candidate drafts are very helpful for the
final ForCES protocol. Actually there already has been such=20
interaction since the ForCES protocol evaluation process began, which
has already made individual candidate drafts ever improved. =20
Thirdly, to make the process successful, we believe that a nice
atmosphere is very important. In such an atmosphere, everyone has=20
a peaceable state of mind, precisely speaking, a mind ready to give up
and accept, and individuals' work can be fully respected.=20
Our past experience has made us believe that it is almost impossible to
reach a compromise among group members where some=20
think of their work much outstanding to others. Lastly, as Jamal has
mentioned, some ground rules is important so as to eliminate=20
conflicts whenever there are.=20

Regarding the merge action way, we agree candidates to propose their
"can't live without" first. Along with this, we also suggest=20
candidates propose "what they think the contents in their drafts are
useful for final protocol and hope able to be put in it". This useful=20
contents are a little different from the "features of the drafts",
because we suppose the contents proposed should be conservatively=20
considered by presenters to be able to merge with other contents.=20

Thank you.

Beset Regards,
Weiming Wang

P.S.: To avoid unexpected alignment for the email, I have also made a
pdf format file in the attachment to ease reading. Thank you.

----- Original Message -----=20
From: "Putzolu, David" <david.putzolu@intel.com>
To: <hadi@znyx.com>; "Khosravi, Hormuzd M"
<hormuzd.m.khosravi@intel.com>; <gmwang@mail.hzic.edu.cn>;
<donglg@mail.hzic.edu.cn>; <spyros.denazis@hitachi-eu.com>; "Steven
Blake" <slblake@torrentnet.com>; "Robert Haas" <rha@zurich.ibm.com>;
<ram.gopal@nokia.com>; <alex.audu@alcatel.com>; "Wang,Weiming"
<wmwang@mail.hzic.edu.cn>; "Patrick Droz" <dro@zurich.ibm.com>; "jeff
pickering" <jpickering@creeksidenet.com>; <avri@acm.org>; "Deleganes,
Ellen M" <ellen.m.deleganes@intel.com>; <gyf@htrdc.com>;
<zsolt.haraszti@ericsson.com>; "Putzolu, David"
<david.putzolu@intel.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2004 1:48 AM
Subject: ForCES Protocol Analysis Design Team Administrivia


All,

This email is going out to all of the current design
team volunteers.  In order to avoid problems with
long to/cc lists, I've asked the IETF to setup a temporary
reflector for us to use, and will subscribe all of us to
it once it is setup.  With any luck it will be ready
by Monday or Tuesday.

If you know of someone who volunteered for the team, but
is not on the recipient list of this email, please have
them contact me.

This team is chartered with examining the aspects of the
currently existing protocol proposals, seeing what common
ground there is, and determining whether the common ground
is sufficient for coming up with a single merged proposal.
The design team is to report out to the ForCES list by
March 20, 2004 (one month from today).

Below is an email that some of you received.  I've included=20
it for the benefit of those who did not receive it.

Given the concern with word docs I think either emails
or (when necessary) PDF are reasonable formats.  I've
converted a word doc previously sent out by Hormuzd to=20
PDF format and put it on the web for those who missed it:
http://www.sstanamera.com/~forces/proto/ForCESProtoDiscussion1.pdf

Below are some ground rules proposed by Jamal.  Are=20
people comfortable with them/are there any additions
that should be made?

Cheers,
David


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jamal Hadi Salim [mailto:hadi@znyx.com]=20
> Sent: Friday, February 20, 2004 6:59 AM
> To: Khosravi, Hormuzd M
> Cc: Steven Blake; Robert Haas; Jon Maloy;=20
> ram.gopal@nokia.com; alex.audu@alcatel.com;=20
> chaopingwu@comcast.net; Wang,Weiming; Putzolu, David; Patrick=20
> Droz; jeff pickering
> Subject: Re: ForCES protocol merger
>=20
>=20
> I have added to the list Jeff Pickering who is a new couathor for us.
>=20
> To start i will say that the netlink2 people are interested=20
> in being on
> this boat. For this reason we have not releasd an updated netlink2
> draft.
>=20
> I dont like the brainstorming document as a starter.
> Brainstorming can be done via emails or concals. And please no word
> docs.
> Our attempt in Mineapolis was in the wrong direction because there
> were no ground rules on how to proceed. We need to agree on=20
> some ground
> rules first otherwise we are going to end in some deadlock.=20
> I am going to suggest one which i came up with after the last
> meeting:
>=20
> As in any conflict, people should be open to giving up some things in
> order to reach a compromise. I can understand that this may not be=20
> 100% technical driven; what i am hoping for is to have less than 5%
> policitical drive.
> This is the main reason i suggested that each protocol=20
> authors list what
> they cant live without. Lets iron that out so we can reduce conflict.
> For each item draft authors cant live without, the how and=20
> justification
> of why must be listed.=20
> In the IETF typical approach of such "cant live without mechanisms"
> would be based on implementation and deployment experience. I have to
> say i learnt a few things on implementing netlink2 that i would have
> previously disagreed with - so that approach is useful.
>=20
> I will try to be open hoping it is the correct thing to do to avoid
> conflict:
> Speaking from a political/bussiness side for myself: we have=20
> implemented
> the full netlink2 which means we have invested time and=20
> resources in it
> (and infact have deployed it in one site). However,
> we are willing to throw all that away provided there will be progress
> here which is not driven by politics rather by a technical drive.
>=20
> So lets start with a list of ground rules.
>=20
> cheers,
> jamal
>=20
>


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Thread-Topic: ForCES Protocol Analysis Design Team Administrivia
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(Resending to add to archive)=20

-----Original Message-----
From: Steven Blake [mailto:slblake@torrentnet.com]=20
Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2004 6:57 AM
To: Wang,Weiming
Cc: avri; Alex Audu; Chaoping Wu; Deleganes, Ellen M; Dong, Ligang; Guo,
Yunfei; Jamal Hadi Salim; Jeff Pickering; Jon Maloy; Khosravi, Hormuzd
M; Patrick Droz; Putzolu, David; Robert Haas; Spyros Denazis; Wang,
Guangming; Zsolt Haraszti
Subject: Re: ForCES Protocol Analysis Design Team Administrivia

On Wed, 2004-02-25 at 03:34, Wang,Weiming wrote:

> 1. The data (redirect) ForCES messages seem have no reason to be
appointed to a lower reliability, compared with=20
> control channel messages.  We may needn't  to argue how important some
of the redirected messages are for a=20
> router (an NE), we just argue that  the reliability for ForCES data
message transport should not be lower than that of the=20
> connection over which the routing/control protocol packets  are
transported. An example is the BGP protocol messages,=20
> which have already been assigned to use TCP instead of UDP for the
transports. We think the communication between CEs=20
> and FEs (which is inside an NE) has no reason to greatly induce extra
performance loss other than that from outside of=20
> an NE for such routing protocol packets. By saying this, we don't mean
all ForCES messages should not be loaded over UDP,=20
> we just propose that it's may be too early to distinguish the redirect
messages from other configuration messages inside ForCES=20
> protocol specifications.

The IP network that delivers the data traffic to the NE is inherently
unreliable; therefore overall reliability cannot be improved by applying
strict reliability to the D channel.  In fact, the D channel traffic
(e.g., BGP over TCP) that requires end-to-end reliability will already
employ transport-layer reliability.  Requiring D channel reliability
might improve performance somewhat; on the other hand, the D channel
reliability mechanisms might interact badly with TCP.

[snip]

> To summarize, we propose that the 7&8 basic principles only mention
the=20
> separation of D and C packets for DoS protection currently,=20
> leaving some space for further discussions. The discussions may be
like:=20
>=20
> 1. Should such a separation be put at the ForCES message layer or at
the=20
>    transport layer?  Which is better?
> 2. Whether united scheduling for D and C packets are necessary?
> 3. Should D packets be distinguished from C packets for its transport=20
>    reliability in ForCES protocol so as to assign a different
transport means?'

I'm not sure I understand your questions, but I am sure of this:
I want the D channel traffic (IP packets and occassionally raw L2
frames) to be delivered to the bottom of my CE's networking stack with
sufficient metadata to indicate the FE and the interface it arrived on.=20
I want my CE networking stack (which in my case lives in an OS kernel
and not in user space) to treat those packets as if they had arrived to
the stack on the interface indicated.  If you transmit the D channel
traffic over a complicated transport such as TCP, you will severely
complicate the ability to treat the traffic as locally delivered
packets; it will be impossible to do this with off-the-shelf kernels
without significant modification.  So I believe that the ForCES D
channel transport needs to be simple enough to implement in a driver,
and/or should use IP tunneling (almost any interesting stack can
demultiplex tunneled traffic onto other interfaces).  Forcing ForCES CEs
to run another networking stack in user space is not an option, IMO.

For the C channel, I expect my CE components to usually run in user
space; use of any IP transport protocol that can be found in an OS
networking stack (or raw frames over L2 + a user-space transport) is
acceptable for this (although there are other reasons to prefer one
transport over another).


Regards,

=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D=
-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D
Steven L. Blake               <steven.blake@ericsson.com>
Ericsson IP Infrastructure                +1 919-472-9913


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(Resending to add to archive)=20

-----Original Message-----
From: Jamal Hadi Salim [mailto:hadi@znyx.com]=20
Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2004 8:27 AM
To: Khosravi, Hormuzd M
Cc: Putzolu, David; gmwang@mail.hzic.edu.cn; donglg@mail.hzic.edu.cn;
spyros.denazis@hitachi-eu.com; Steve Blake; Robert Haas;
ram.gopal@nokia.com; alex.audu@alcatel.com; Wang,Weiming; Patrick Droz;
jeff pickering; avri@acm.org; Deleganes, Ellen M; gyf@htrdc.com;
zsolt.haraszti@ericsson.com
Subject: RE: ForCES Protocol Analysis Design Team Administrivia

On Wed, 2004-02-25 at 21:39, Khosravi, Hormuzd M wrote:
> Hi All,
>=20
> I am personally fine with the proposal by Jamal to list=20
> any features the protocol authors cant live without.=20
>=20
> Jamal, are there any other ground rules you have in mind ?
> Why don't you send a list of features which you would like=20
> to see and we can start the discussion from there ?


I think the most important approach is to look at this as
an opportunity (for all of us) to create a very useful protocol.
Seems to me we all have good experiences that we can put to use.
There will be differences in opionions, but the hope is that there
are differences in technical (not political) opinion. Lets all be ready
to make technical compromises for the sake of a good protocol.
My thoughts are we should be doing some sort of interop by San Diego
time. So we dont have much time to waste on quibbling.

As a starter, lets share some experiences. We can then move towards
defininig what would be useful. We can then debate about different
aspects of what mechanisms fit better and why.

So i am attaching a text file which describes some of the experiences we
have gathered. If we can get something from the two other protocols=20
then it would be extremely a good start.=20

Thoughts?

cheers,
jamal

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------_=_NextPart_001_01C3FCB0.232A8566--

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(Resending to add to archive)=20

-----Original Message-----
From: Alex Audu [mailto:alex.audu@alcatel.com]=20
Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2004 9:23 AM
To: avri@acm.org
Cc: Khosravi, Hormuzd M; hadi@znyx.com; gmwang@mail.hzic.edu.cn;
Deleganes, Ellen M; gyf@htrdc.com; Steven Blake;
donglg@mail.hzic.edu.cn; Patrick Droz; spyros.denazis@hitachi-eu.com;
Robert Haas; ram.gopal@nokia.com; jeff pickering; Wang,Weiming; Putzolu,
David; zsolt.haraszti@ericsson.com
Subject: Re: ForCES Protocol Analysis Design Team Administrivia

Hello Avri,

I guess this (non-authors favorite features list)  would be a good input

to the team.

Thanks,
Alex.

avri@acm.org wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I too think this is a good start.  I am also wondering whether there=20
> is any value in the non-authors writing up a list of the features they

> value from each of the 3 proposals.
>
> a.
>
>
> On 26 feb 2004, at 11.39, Khosravi, Hormuzd M wrote:
>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> I am personally fine with the proposal by Jamal to list
>> any features the protocol authors cant live without.
>>
>> Jamal, are there any other ground rules you have in mind ?
>> Why don't you send a list of features which you would like
>> to see and we can start the discussion from there ?
>>
>> Thanks
>> Hormuzd
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Putzolu, David
>> Sent: Friday, February 20, 2004 9:49 AM
>> To: hadi@znyx.com; Khosravi, Hormuzd M; gmwang@mail.hzic.edu.cn;
>> donglg@mail.hzic.edu.cn; spyros.denazis@hitachi-eu.com; Steven Blake;
>> Robert Haas; ram.gopal@nokia.com; alex.audu@alcatel.com;
Wang,Weiming;
>> Patrick Droz; jeff pickering; avri@acm.org; Deleganes, Ellen M;
>> gyf@htrdc.com; 'zsolt.haraszti@ericsson.com'; Putzolu, David
>> Subject: ForCES Protocol Analysis Design Team Administrivia
>>
>>
>> All,
>>
>> This email is going out to all of the current design
>> team volunteers.  In order to avoid problems with
>> long to/cc lists, I've asked the IETF to setup a temporary
>> reflector for us to use, and will subscribe all of us to
>> it once it is setup.  With any luck it will be ready
>> by Monday or Tuesday.
>>
>> If you know of someone who volunteered for the team, but
>> is not on the recipient list of this email, please have
>> them contact me.
>>
>> This team is chartered with examining the aspects of the
>> currently existing protocol proposals, seeing what common
>> ground there is, and determining whether the common ground
>> is sufficient for coming up with a single merged proposal.
>> The design team is to report out to the ForCES list by
>> March 20, 2004 (one month from today).
>>
>> Below is an email that some of you received.  I've included
>> it for the benefit of those who did not receive it.
>>
>> Given the concern with word docs I think either emails
>> or (when necessary) PDF are reasonable formats.  I've
>> converted a word doc previously sent out by Hormuzd to
>> PDF format and put it on the web for those who missed it:
>> http://www.sstanamera.com/~forces/proto/ForCESProtoDiscussion1.pdf
>>
>> Below are some ground rules proposed by Jamal.  Are
>> people comfortable with them/are there any additions
>> that should be made?
>>
>> Cheers,
>> David
>>
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Jamal Hadi Salim [mailto:hadi@znyx.com]
>>> Sent: Friday, February 20, 2004 6:59 AM
>>> To: Khosravi, Hormuzd M
>>> Cc: Steven Blake; Robert Haas; Jon Maloy;
>>> ram.gopal@nokia.com; alex.audu@alcatel.com;
>>> chaopingwu@comcast.net; Wang,Weiming; Putzolu, David; Patrick
>>> Droz; jeff pickering
>>> Subject: Re: ForCES protocol merger
>>>
>>>
>>> I have added to the list Jeff Pickering who is a new couathor for
us.
>>>
>>> To start i will say that the netlink2 people are interested
>>> in being on
>>> this boat. For this reason we have not releasd an updated netlink2
>>> draft.
>>>
>>> I dont like the brainstorming document as a starter.
>>> Brainstorming can be done via emails or concals. And please no word
>>> docs.
>>> Our attempt in Mineapolis was in the wrong direction because there
>>> were no ground rules on how to proceed. We need to agree on
>>> some ground
>>> rules first otherwise we are going to end in some deadlock.
>>> I am going to suggest one which i came up with after the last
>>> meeting:
>>>
>>> As in any conflict, people should be open to giving up some things
in
>>> order to reach a compromise. I can understand that this may not be
>>> 100% technical driven; what i am hoping for is to have less than 5%
>>> policitical drive.
>>> This is the main reason i suggested that each protocol
>>> authors list what
>>> they cant live without. Lets iron that out so we can reduce
conflict.
>>> For each item draft authors cant live without, the how and
>>> justification
>>> of why must be listed.
>>> In the IETF typical approach of such "cant live without mechanisms"
>>> would be based on implementation and deployment experience. I have
to
>>> say i learnt a few things on implementing netlink2 that i would have
>>> previously disagreed with - so that approach is useful.
>>>
>>> I will try to be open hoping it is the correct thing to do to avoid
>>> conflict:
>>> Speaking from a political/bussiness side for myself: we have
>>> implemented
>>> the full netlink2 which means we have invested time and
>>> resources in it
>>> (and infact have deployed it in one site). However,
>>> we are willing to throw all that away provided there will be
progress
>>> here which is not driven by politics rather by a technical drive.
>>>
>>> So lets start with a list of ground rules.
>>>
>>> cheers,
>>> jamal
>>>
>>>
>>
>


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(Resending to add to archive)

  _____ =20

From: Alex Audu [mailto:alex.audu@alcatel.com]=20
Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2004 10:07 AM
To: Wang,Weiming
Cc: avri; Chaoping Wu; Deleganes, Ellen M; Dong, Ligang; Guo, Yunfei;
Jamal Hadi Salim; Jeff Pickering; Jon Maloy; Khosravi, Hormuzd M;
Patrick Droz; Putzolu, David; Robert Haas; Spyros Denazis; Steve Blake;
Wang, Guangming
Subject: Re: ForCES Protocol Analysis Design Team Administrivia


Hello Weiming,

I'll address some of the issues you raised.

1) Seperate Data Redirect and Control channels/ relative importance of
Control vs Redirect info
    It is easy to see that the redirect data can be manipulated by an
outside source (External to=20
     the NE).  In the case of such a source being malicious, it is
necessary to give priority to=20
     the control data to maintain integrity of the NE.
     =20
      You sighted BGP experience.  Indeed, the realization that it is
safer to separate externally
       generated control data like redirect-data from internally
generated control data grew out
       of  experience gleamed from past DOS attacks on BGP.

2)  C channel and D channel are on the same physical link.   For DOS
survivability, you need=20
      to seperate then somehow. If you use SCTP, you can put them on
separate streams on
       the same link. That will work.  But what will be best is a
non-reliable congestion aware
      stream/link for  D-channel and a reliable stream/link for
C-channel.
       Rate controlling is important. But if  you need to allow your C
information to flow freely
       to adaptively effect counter-meassures if the NE is being DOS'd.

3) Delay of D packets by  delay of C packets.   This sould not happen if
your channels are
     independent. And  D packets may dictate what C packets get sent to
the FE.  The
     problem might be related to the way your real-time processes are
running the D and C=20
     queues.  You can play with thread priorities,..etc to resolve this.

4) C/D separation resource cost:   This is not as expensive as the cost
paid when DOS
     attacks occur.  Besides, hardware resources are getting cheaper by
the day,..and=20
     processors are getting faster too. =20

General comments. May be a way to go forward is to make it a SHOULD to
implement
 (on seperate D/C channels) and leave the rest up to implementation,...I
am not sure. Any comments?

Regards,
Alex.

Wang,Weiming wrote:


	Hi David,
=09
	Regarding the proposed basic principles, we (GRMP group) have
some comments for  principles item 7&8:
	--------
	7.      The ForCES protocol should support separate channels for
Control and Data messages. The data=20
	channel carries the routing/control protocol packets such as
RIP, OSPF packets, between the CEs and FEs.=20
	These packets are unique in most cases for a particular CE:FE
pair and hence the data channel will use unicast=20
	connections between the CEs and FEs. Also, the data channel does
not have to be strictly reliable but does=20
	need to provide flow/congestion control to protect against DoS
attacks.
=09
	8.      The control channel must provide strict reliability
(non-corruption, no loss, no reordering, timeliness) at the=20
	transport level in accordance with the RFC 3654. In addition,
ForCES protocol level responses/acknowledgements=20
	are also needed from FE to CE to learn the results of
configuration/control messages.
	--------
=09
	First of all, we agree that to distinguish ForCES messages into
control messages and data (redirect) messages are=20
	essential for DoS protection scheme. Then, we argue that to
separate the two kinds of messages into two different=20
	transport channels with the data channel being appointed to a
lower reliable level (such as UDP, compared with TCP)=20
	may not be a good enough scheme for such purpose. The reasons
are:
=09
	1. The data (redirect) ForCES messages seem have no reason to be
appointed to a lower reliability, compared with=20
	control channel messages.  We may needn't  to argue how
important some of the redirected messages are for a=20
	router (an NE), we just argue that  the reliability for ForCES
data message transport should not be lower than that of the=20
	connection over which the routing/control protocol packets  are
transported. An example is the BGP protocol messages,=20
	which have already been assigned to use TCP instead of UDP for
the transports. We think the communication between CEs=20
	and FEs (which is inside an NE) has no reason to greatly induce
extra performance loss other than that from outside of=20
	an NE for such routing protocol packets. By saying this, we
don't mean all ForCES messages should not be loaded over UDP,=20
	we just propose that it's may be too early to distinguish the
redirect messages from other configuration messages inside ForCES=20
	protocol specifications.
=09
	2. Generally speaking, separated C channel and D channel are
still put over the same physical link (or else there is almost=20
	no need to protect DoS).  Therefore,  such a separation itself
does not provide any DoS protection, instead, the protection is=20
	obtained by the rate control of D channel. We argue that  such a
rate control actually can be obtained at the ForCES message=20
	layer instead of at the message transport layer. Some of our
experiment results (which will be presented at the IETF meeting)=20
	have shown this feasibility.  Moreover, a separation at
transport layer surely will complicate the CE-FE association and the=20
	followed message transport management.=20
=09
	3.  We have also noticed a phenomenon during our experiments,
which we may need to pay some attention. I recalled when=20
	FACT first presented the D and C channel idea,  there was a
question worrying about the asyncronization between D and C channel. =20
	Our experiments have shown that,  although there is no strict
asyncronization problem between D and C channel owing to the data=20
	independence, there is a possibility that D channel packets may
be seriously delayed and even blocked owing to the busy traffic at=20
	C channel if D packets are separated from C packets. The busy
traffic at C channel may happen when CE queries FE for something=20
	and FE dumps quite a huge number of messages (such as routing
table items.)  Such a delay or blocking may be counted in seconds,=20
	resulted in very harmful effect on the users of redirected
packets.  As a result, we propose that a moderate rate control for C
channel=20
	be also necessary.=20
=09
	4. To explicitly separate D and C channel also consumes more
resources, because a resources for D channel have to be reserved.=20
	Instead, by separating D and C packets at the ForCES protocol
layer and uniting them again at the transport layer, we may able to=20
	make a scheduling discipline by which the D and C packets can
share the link resources effectively. We are trying to construct such=20
	a scheduling scheme, and it seems quite practical to so.
=09
	To summarize, we propose that the 7&8 basic principles only
mention the separation of D and C packets for DoS protection currently,=20
	leaving some space for further discussions. The discussions may
be like:=20
=09
	1. Should such a separation be put at the ForCES message layer
or at the transport layer?  Which is better?
	2. Whether united scheduling for D and C packets are necessary?
	3. Should D packets be distinguished from C packets for its
transport reliability in ForCES protocol so as to assign a different
transport means?
=09
	Regarding the protocol merge proposal, we'd like to present some
of our thinking in a few words:
=09
	Firstly, as a new comer to IETF work, the GRMP group surely
welcome such a merge proposal, sincerely hoping an all merits in=20
	one draft can be achieved for ForCES WG, and at the same time
hoping to learn from other candidate authors, whom we have=20
	already been respecting to for their rich knowledge and
excellent contributions to IETF and other fields. Secondly, we believe=20
	that the interaction among the candidate drafts are very helpful
for the final ForCES protocol. Actually there already has been such=20
	interaction since the ForCES protocol evaluation process began,
which has already made individual candidate drafts ever improved. =20
	Thirdly, to make the process successful, we believe that a nice
atmosphere is very important. In such an atmosphere, everyone has=20
	a peaceable state of mind, precisely speaking, a mind ready to
give up and accept, and individuals' work can be fully respected.=20
	Our past experience has made us believe that it is almost
impossible to reach a compromise among group members where some=20
	think of their work much outstanding to others. Lastly, as Jamal
has mentioned, some ground rules is important so as to eliminate=20
	conflicts whenever there are.=20
=09
	Regarding the merge action way, we agree candidates to propose
their "can't live without" first. Along with this, we also suggest=20
	candidates propose "what they think the contents in their drafts
are useful for final protocol and hope able to be put in it". This
useful=20
	contents are a little different from the "features of the
drafts", because we suppose the contents proposed should be
conservatively=20
	considered by presenters to be able to merge with other
contents.=20
=09
	Thank you.
=09
	Beset Regards,
	Weiming Wang
=09
	P.S.: To avoid unexpected alignment for the email, I have also
made a pdf format file in the attachment to ease reading. Thank you.
=09
	----- Original Message -----=20
	From: "Putzolu, David" <david.putzolu@intel.com>
<mailto:david.putzolu@intel.com>=20
	To: <hadi@znyx.com> <mailto:hadi@znyx.com> ; "Khosravi, Hormuzd
M" <hormuzd.m.khosravi@intel.com> <mailto:hormuzd.m.khosravi@intel.com>
; <gmwang@mail.hzic.edu.cn> <mailto:gmwang@mail.hzic.edu.cn> ;
<donglg@mail.hzic.edu.cn> <mailto:donglg@mail.hzic.edu.cn> ;
<spyros.denazis@hitachi-eu.com> <mailto:spyros.denazis@hitachi-eu.com> ;
"Steven Blake" <slblake@torrentnet.com> <mailto:slblake@torrentnet.com>
; "Robert Haas" <rha@zurich.ibm.com> <mailto:rha@zurich.ibm.com> ;
<ram.gopal@nokia.com> <mailto:ram.gopal@nokia.com> ; <alex.audu@alcat
	el.com> <mailto:alex.audu@alcatel.com> ; "Wang,Weiming"
<wmwang@mail.hzic.edu.cn> <mailto:wmwang@mail.hzic.edu.cn> ; "Patrick
Droz" <dro@zurich.ibm.com> <mailto:dro@zurich.ibm.com> ; "jeff
pickering" <jpickering@creeksidenet.com>
<mailto:jpickering@creeksidenet.com> ; <avri@acm.org>
<mailto:avri@acm.org> ; "Deleganes, Ellen M"
<ellen.m.deleganes@intel.com> <mailto:ellen.m.deleganes@intel.com> ;
<gyf@htrdc.com> <mailto:gyf@htrdc.com> ; <zsolt.haraszti@ericsson.com>
<mailto:zsolt.haraszti@ericsson.com> ; "Putzolu, David"
<david.putzolu@intel.com> <mailto:david.putzolu@intel.com>=20
	Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2004 1:48 AM
	Subject: ForCES Protocol Analysis Design Team Administrivia
=09
=09
	All,
=09
	This email is going out to all of the current design
	team volunteers.  In order to avoid problems with
	long to/cc lists, I've asked the IETF to setup a temporary
	reflector for us to use, and will subscribe all of us to
	it once it is setup.  With any luck it will be ready
	by Monday or Tuesday.
=09
	If you know of someone who volunteered for the team, but
	is not on the recipient list of this email, please have
	them contact me.
=09
	This team is chartered with examining the aspects of the
	currently existing protocol proposals, seeing what common
	ground there is, and determining whether the common ground
	is sufficient for coming up with a single merged proposal.
	The design team is to report out to the ForCES list by
	March 20, 2004 (one month from today).
=09
	Below is an email that some of you received.  I've included=20
	it for the benefit of those who did not receive it.
=09
	Given the concern with word docs I think either emails
	or (when necessary) PDF are reasonable formats.  I've
	converted a word doc previously sent out by Hormuzd to=20
	PDF format and put it on the web for those who missed it:
=09
http://www.sstanamera.com/~forces/proto/ForCESProtoDiscussion1.pdf
=09
	Below are some ground rules proposed by Jamal.  Are=20
	people comfortable with them/are there any additions
	that should be made?
=09
	Cheers,
	David
=09
=09
	 =20

		-----Original Message-----
		From: Jamal Hadi Salim [mailto:hadi@znyx.com]=20
		Sent: Friday, February 20, 2004 6:59 AM
		To: Khosravi, Hormuzd M
		Cc: Steven Blake; Robert Haas; Jon Maloy;=20
		ram.gopal@nokia.com; alex.audu@alcatel.com;=20
		chaopingwu@comcast.net; Wang,Weiming; Putzolu, David;
Patrick=20
		Droz; jeff pickering
		Subject: Re: ForCES protocol merger
	=09
	=09
		I have added to the list Jeff Pickering who is a new
couathor for us.
	=09
		To start i will say that the netlink2 people are
interested=20
		in being on
		this boat. For this reason we have not releasd an
updated netlink2
		draft.
	=09
		I dont like the brainstorming document as a starter.
		Brainstorming can be done via emails or concals. And
please no word
		docs.
		Our attempt in Mineapolis was in the wrong direction
because there
		were no ground rules on how to proceed. We need to agree
on=20
		some ground
		rules first otherwise we are going to end in some
deadlock.=20
		I am going to suggest one which i came up with after the
last
		meeting:
	=09
		As in any conflict, people should be open to giving up
some things in
		order to reach a compromise. I can understand that this
may not be=20
		100% technical driven; what i am hoping for is to have
less than 5%
		policitical drive.
		This is the main reason i suggested that each protocol=20
		authors list what
		they cant live without. Lets iron that out so we can
reduce conflict.
		For each item draft authors cant live without, the how
and=20
		justification
		of why must be listed.=20
		In the IETF typical approach of such "cant live without
mechanisms"
		would be based on implementation and deployment
experience. I have to
		say i learnt a few things on implementing netlink2 that
i would have
		previously disagreed with - so that approach is useful.
	=09
		I will try to be open hoping it is the correct thing to
do to avoid
		conflict:
		Speaking from a political/bussiness side for myself: we
have=20
		implemented
		the full netlink2 which means we have invested time and=20
		resources in it
		(and infact have deployed it in one site). However,
		we are willing to throw all that away provided there
will be progress
		here which is not driven by politics rather by a
technical drive.
	=09
		So lets start with a list of ground rules.
	=09
		cheers,
		jamal
	=09
	=09
		   =20

=09
	 =20


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<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
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<BODY text=3D#000000 bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D274413021-26022004><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>(Resending to add to =
archive)</FONT></SPAN></DIV></DIV><BR>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
<HR tabIndex=3D-1>
<FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> Alex Audu =
[mailto:alex.audu@alcatel.com]=20
<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, February 26, 2004 10:07 AM<BR><B>To:</B>=20
Wang,Weiming<BR><B>Cc:</B> avri; Chaoping Wu; Deleganes, Ellen M; Dong, =
Ligang;=20
Guo, Yunfei; Jamal Hadi Salim; Jeff Pickering; Jon Maloy; Khosravi, =
Hormuzd M;=20
Patrick Droz; Putzolu, David; Robert Haas; Spyros Denazis; Steve Blake; =
Wang,=20
Guangming<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: ForCES Protocol Analysis Design Team=20
Administrivia<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>Hello Weiming,<BR><BR>I'll address some of the issues you=20
raised.<BR><BR>1) Seperate Data Redirect and Control channels/ relative=20
importance of Control vs Redirect info<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; It is easy =
to see=20
that the redirect data can be manipulated by an outside source (External =
to=20
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the NE).&nbsp; In the case of such a source =
being=20
malicious, it is necessary to give priority to =
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the=20
control data to maintain integrity of the =
NE.<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; You sighted BGP experience.&nbsp; =
Indeed, the=20
realization that it is safer to separate=20
externally<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; generated control =
data like=20
redirect-data from internally generated control data grew=20
out<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; of&nbsp; experience gleamed =
from=20
past DOS attacks on BGP.<BR><BR>2)&nbsp; C channel and D channel are on =
the same=20
physical link.&nbsp;&nbsp; For DOS survivability, you need=20
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; to seperate then somehow. If you use =
SCTP,=20
you can put them on separate streams =
on<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
the same link. That will work.&nbsp; But what will be best is a =
non-reliable=20
congestion aware<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; stream/link for&nbsp; D-channel =
and a=20
reliable stream/link for =
C-channel.<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Rate=20
controlling is important. But if&nbsp; you need to allow your C =
information to=20
flow freely<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; to adaptively effect =

counter-meassures if the NE is being DOS'd.<BR><BR>3) Delay of D packets =

by&nbsp; delay of C packets.&nbsp;&nbsp; This sould not happen if your =
channels=20
are<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; independent. And&nbsp; D packets may =
dictate=20
what C packets get sent to the FE.&nbsp; The<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
problem=20
might be related to the way your real-time processes are running the D =
and C=20
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; queues.&nbsp; You can play with thread=20
priorities,..etc to resolve this.<BR><BR>4) C/D separation resource=20
cost:&nbsp;&nbsp; This is not as expensive as the cost paid when=20
DOS<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; attacks occur.&nbsp; Besides, hardware =
resources=20
are getting cheaper by the day,..and <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
processors are=20
getting faster too.&nbsp; <BR><BR>General comments. May be a way to go =
forward=20
is to make it a SHOULD to implement<BR>&nbsp;(on seperate D/C channels) =
and=20
leave the rest up to implementation,...I am not sure. Any=20
comments?<BR><BR>Regards,<BR>Alex.<BR><BR>Wang,Weiming wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite=3Dmid030d01c3fb7a$3528e400$845c21d2@Necom.hzic.edu.cn=20
type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">Hi David,

Regarding the proposed basic principles, we (GRMP group) have some =
comments for  principles item 7&amp;8:
--------
7.      The ForCES protocol should support separate channels for Control =
and Data messages. The data=20
channel carries the routing/control protocol packets such as RIP, OSPF =
packets, between the CEs and FEs.=20
These packets are unique in most cases for a particular CE:FE pair and =
hence the data channel will use unicast=20
connections between the CEs and FEs. Also, the data channel does not =
have to be strictly reliable but does=20
need to provide flow/congestion control to protect against DoS attacks.

8.      The control channel must provide strict reliability =
(non-corruption, no loss, no reordering, timeliness) at the=20
transport level in accordance with the RFC 3654. In addition, ForCES =
protocol level responses/acknowledgements=20
are also needed from FE to CE to learn the results of =
configuration/control messages.
--------

First of all, we agree that to distinguish ForCES messages into control =
messages and data (redirect) messages are=20
essential for DoS protection scheme. Then, we argue that to separate the =
two kinds of messages into two different=20
transport channels with the data channel being appointed to a lower =
reliable level (such as UDP, compared with TCP)=20
may not be a good enough scheme for such purpose. The reasons are:

1. The data (redirect) ForCES messages seem have no reason to be =
appointed to a lower reliability, compared with=20
control channel messages.  We may needn't  to argue how important some =
of the redirected messages are for a=20
router (an NE), we just argue that  the reliability for ForCES data =
message transport should not be lower than that of the=20
connection over which the routing/control protocol packets  are =
transported. An example is the BGP protocol messages,=20
which have already been assigned to use TCP instead of UDP for the =
transports. We think the communication between CEs=20
and FEs (which is inside an NE) has no reason to greatly induce extra =
performance loss other than that from outside of=20
an NE for such routing protocol packets. By saying this, we don't mean =
all ForCES messages should not be loaded over UDP,=20
we just propose that it's may be too early to distinguish the redirect =
messages from other configuration messages inside ForCES=20
protocol specifications.

2. Generally speaking, separated C channel and D channel are still put =
over the same physical link (or else there is almost=20
no need to protect DoS).  Therefore,  such a separation itself does not =
provide any DoS protection, instead, the protection is=20
obtained by the rate control of D channel. We argue that  such a rate =
control actually can be obtained at the ForCES message=20
layer instead of at the message transport layer. Some of our experiment =
results (which will be presented at the IETF meeting)=20
have shown this feasibility.  Moreover, a separation at transport layer =
surely will complicate the CE-FE association and the=20
followed message transport management.=20

3.  We have also noticed a phenomenon during our experiments, which we =
may need to pay some attention. I recalled when=20
FACT first presented the D and C channel idea,  there was a question =
worrying about the asyncronization between D and C channel. =20
Our experiments have shown that,  although there is no strict =
asyncronization problem between D and C channel owing to the data=20
independence, there is a possibility that D channel packets may be =
seriously delayed and even blocked owing to the busy traffic at=20
C channel if D packets are separated from C packets. The busy traffic at =
C channel may happen when CE queries FE for something=20
and FE dumps quite a huge number of messages (such as routing table =
items.)  Such a delay or blocking may be counted in seconds,=20
resulted in very harmful effect on the users of redirected packets.  As =
a result, we propose that a moderate rate control for C channel=20
be also necessary.=20

4. To explicitly separate D and C channel also consumes more resources, =
because a resources for D channel have to be reserved.=20
Instead, by separating D and C packets at the ForCES protocol layer and =
uniting them again at the transport layer, we may able to=20
make a scheduling discipline by which the D and C packets can share the =
link resources effectively. We are trying to construct such=20
a scheduling scheme, and it seems quite practical to so.

To summarize, we propose that the 7&amp;8 basic principles only mention =
the separation of D and C packets for DoS protection currently,=20
leaving some space for further discussions. The discussions may be like: =


1. Should such a separation be put at the ForCES message layer or at the =
transport layer?  Which is better?
2. Whether united scheduling for D and C packets are necessary?
3. Should D packets be distinguished from C packets for its transport =
reliability in ForCES protocol so as to assign a different transport =
means?

Regarding the protocol merge proposal, we'd like to present some of our =
thinking in a few words:

Firstly, as a new comer to IETF work, the GRMP group surely welcome such =
a merge proposal, sincerely hoping an all merits in=20
one draft can be achieved for ForCES WG, and at the same time hoping to =
learn from other candidate authors, whom we have=20
already been respecting to for their rich knowledge and excellent =
contributions to IETF and other fields. Secondly, we believe=20
that the interaction among the candidate drafts are very helpful for the =
final ForCES protocol. Actually there already has been such=20
interaction since the ForCES protocol evaluation process began, which =
has already made individual candidate drafts ever improved. =20
Thirdly, to make the process successful, we believe that a nice =
atmosphere is very important. In such an atmosphere, everyone has=20
a peaceable state of mind, precisely speaking, a mind ready to give up =
and accept, and individuals' work can be fully respected.=20
Our past experience has made us believe that it is almost impossible to =
reach a compromise among group members where some=20
think of their work much outstanding to others. Lastly, as Jamal has =
mentioned, some ground rules is important so as to eliminate=20
conflicts whenever there are.=20

Regarding the merge action way, we agree candidates to propose their =
"can't live without" first. Along with this, we also suggest=20
candidates propose "what they think the contents in their drafts are =
useful for final protocol and hope able to be put in it". This useful=20
contents are a little different from the "features of the drafts", =
because we suppose the contents proposed should be conservatively=20
considered by presenters to be able to merge with other contents.=20

Thank you.

Beset Regards,
Weiming Wang

P.S.: To avoid unexpected alignment for the email, I have also made a =
pdf format file in the attachment to ease reading. Thank you.

----- Original Message -----=20
From: "Putzolu, David" <A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-rfc2396E =
href=3D"mailto:david.putzolu@intel.com">&lt;david.putzolu@intel.com&gt;</=
A>
To: <A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-rfc2396E =
href=3D"mailto:hadi@znyx.com">&lt;hadi@znyx.com&gt;</A>; "Khosravi, =
Hormuzd M" <A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-rfc2396E =
href=3D"mailto:hormuzd.m.khosravi@intel.com">&lt;hormuzd.m.khosravi@intel=
.com&gt;</A>; <A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-rfc2396E =
href=3D"mailto:gmwang@mail.hzic.edu.cn">&lt;gmwang@mail.hzic.edu.cn&gt;</=
A>; <A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-rfc2396E =
href=3D"mailto:donglg@mail.hzic.edu.cn">&lt;donglg@mail.hzic.edu.cn&gt;</=
A>; <A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-rfc2396E =
href=3D"mailto:spyros.denazis@hitachi-eu.com">&lt;spyros.denazis@hitachi-=
eu.com&gt;</A>; "Steven Blake" <A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-rfc2396E =
href=3D"mailto:slblake@torrentnet.com">&lt;slblake@torrentnet.com&gt;</A>=
; "Robert Haas" <A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-rfc2396E =
href=3D"mailto:rha@zurich.ibm.com">&lt;rha@zurich.ibm.com&gt;</A>; <A =
class=3Dmoz-txt-link-rfc2396E =
href=3D"mailto:ram.gopal@nokia.com">&lt;ram.gopal@nokia.com&gt;</A>; <A =
class=3Dmoz-txt-link-rfc2396E =
href=3D"mailto:alex.audu@alcatel.com">&lt;alex.audu@alcat
el.com&gt;</A>; "Wang,Weiming" <A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-rfc2396E =
href=3D"mailto:wmwang@mail.hzic.edu.cn">&lt;wmwang@mail.hzic.edu.cn&gt;</=
A>; "Patrick Droz" <A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-rfc2396E =
href=3D"mailto:dro@zurich.ibm.com">&lt;dro@zurich.ibm.com&gt;</A>; "jeff =
pickering" <A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-rfc2396E =
href=3D"mailto:jpickering@creeksidenet.com">&lt;jpickering@creeksidenet.c=
om&gt;</A>; <A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-rfc2396E =
href=3D"mailto:avri@acm.org">&lt;avri@acm.org&gt;</A>; "Deleganes, Ellen =
M" <A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-rfc2396E =
href=3D"mailto:ellen.m.deleganes@intel.com">&lt;ellen.m.deleganes@intel.c=
om&gt;</A>; <A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-rfc2396E =
href=3D"mailto:gyf@htrdc.com">&lt;gyf@htrdc.com&gt;</A>; <A =
class=3Dmoz-txt-link-rfc2396E =
href=3D"mailto:zsolt.haraszti@ericsson.com">&lt;zsolt.haraszti@ericsson.c=
om&gt;</A>; "Putzolu, David" <A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-rfc2396E =
href=3D"mailto:david.putzolu@intel.com">&lt;david.putzolu@intel.com&gt;</=
A>
Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2004 1:48 AM
Subject: ForCES Protocol Analysis Design Team Administrivia


All,

This email is going out to all of the current design
team volunteers.  In order to avoid problems with
long to/cc lists, I've asked the IETF to setup a temporary
reflector for us to use, and will subscribe all of us to
it once it is setup.  With any luck it will be ready
by Monday or Tuesday.

If you know of someone who volunteered for the team, but
is not on the recipient list of this email, please have
them contact me.

This team is chartered with examining the aspects of the
currently existing protocol proposals, seeing what common
ground there is, and determining whether the common ground
is sufficient for coming up with a single merged proposal.
The design team is to report out to the ForCES list by
March 20, 2004 (one month from today).

Below is an email that some of you received.  I've included=20
it for the benefit of those who did not receive it.

Given the concern with word docs I think either emails
or (when necessary) PDF are reasonable formats.  I've
converted a word doc previously sent out by Hormuzd to=20
PDF format and put it on the web for those who missed it:
<A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-freetext =
href=3D"http://www.sstanamera.com/~forces/proto/ForCESProtoDiscussion1.pd=
f">http://www.sstanamera.com/~forces/proto/ForCESProtoDiscussion1.pdf</A>=


Below are some ground rules proposed by Jamal.  Are=20
people comfortable with them/are there any additions
that should be made?

Cheers,
David


  </PRE>
  <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">-----Original Message-----
From: Jamal Hadi Salim [<A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-freetext =
href=3D"mailto:hadi@znyx.com">mailto:hadi@znyx.com</A>]=20
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2004 6:59 AM
To: Khosravi, Hormuzd M
Cc: Steven Blake; Robert Haas; Jon Maloy;=20
<A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-abbreviated =
href=3D"mailto:ram.gopal@nokia.com">ram.gopal@nokia.com</A>; <A =
class=3Dmoz-txt-link-abbreviated =
href=3D"mailto:alex.audu@alcatel.com">alex.audu@alcatel.com</A>;=20
<A class=3Dmoz-txt-link-abbreviated =
href=3D"mailto:chaopingwu@comcast.net">chaopingwu@comcast.net</A>; =
Wang,Weiming; Putzolu, David; Patrick=20
Droz; jeff pickering
Subject: Re: ForCES protocol merger


I have added to the list Jeff Pickering who is a new couathor for us.

To start i will say that the netlink2 people are interested=20
in being on
this boat. For this reason we have not releasd an updated netlink2
draft.

I dont like the brainstorming document as a starter.
Brainstorming can be done via emails or concals. And please no word
docs.
Our attempt in Mineapolis was in the wrong direction because there
were no ground rules on how to proceed. We need to agree on=20
some ground
rules first otherwise we are going to end in some deadlock.=20
I am going to suggest one which i came up with after the last
meeting:

As in any conflict, people should be open to giving up some things in
order to reach a compromise. I can understand that this may not be=20
100% technical driven; what i am hoping for is to have less than 5%
policitical drive.
This is the main reason i suggested that each protocol=20
authors list what
they cant live without. Lets iron that out so we can reduce conflict.
For each item draft authors cant live without, the how and=20
justification
of why must be listed.=20
In the IETF typical approach of such "cant live without mechanisms"
would be based on implementation and deployment experience. I have to
say i learnt a few things on implementing netlink2 that i would have
previously disagreed with - so that approach is useful.

I will try to be open hoping it is the correct thing to do to avoid
conflict:
Speaking from a political/bussiness side for myself: we have=20
implemented
the full netlink2 which means we have invested time and=20
resources in it
(and infact have deployed it in one site). However,
we are willing to throw all that away provided there will be progress
here which is not driven by politics rather by a technical drive.

So lets start with a list of ground rules.

cheers,
jamal


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(Resending to add to archive)

  _____ =20

From: Alex Audu [mailto:alex.audu@alcatel.com]=20
Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2004 12:32 PM
To: hadi@znyx.com
Cc: Khosravi, Hormuzd M; Putzolu, David; gmwang@mail.hzic.edu.cn;
donglg@mail.hzic.edu.cn; spyros.denazis@hitachi-eu.com; Steve Blake;
Robert Haas; ram.gopal@nokia.com; Wang,Weiming; Patrick Droz; jeff
pickering; avri@acm.org; Deleganes, Ellen M; gyf@htrdc.com;
zsolt.haraszti@ericsson.com
Subject: Re: ForCES Protocol Analysis Design Team Administrivia


Hello Jamal,

Thanks for the experience report with NetLink2.  After a quick scan, I
quickly came
to the conclusion that we may not want to go this route.  My reason is
the severely
limited scope of the test bed.:=20
  1) one hop (far cry from ForCEs requirement)
  2) does not take into account the currently evolving meta-data work.
So,..what we currently=20
      have out there is not fully ForCEs compliant.

As a starter, you can't burden the application layer with the
responsibility of correcting
 problems resulting from delivering application data out of order.  You
just can't mandate
that. At least, that is not what currently prevails.

What I think we should do is start with a list of features we can't live
without and then
take it from there.  And also, we should all respect the spirit of the
ForCEs requirements.
That is the only thing we have as a guide.=20

Regards,
Alex.

Jamal Hadi Salim wrote:


	On Wed, 2004-02-25 at 21:39, Khosravi, Hormuzd M wrote:
	 =20

		Hi All,
	=09
		I am personally fine with the proposal by Jamal to list=20
		any features the protocol authors cant live without.=20
	=09
		Jamal, are there any other ground rules you have in mind
?
		Why don't you send a list of features which you would
like=20
		to see and we can start the discussion from there ?
		   =20

=09
=09
	I think the most important approach is to look at this as
	an opportunity (for all of us) to create a very useful protocol.
	Seems to me we all have good experiences that we can put to use.
	There will be differences in opionions, but the hope is that
there
	are differences in technical (not political) opinion. Lets all
be ready
	to make technical compromises for the sake of a good protocol.
	My thoughts are we should be doing some sort of interop by San
Diego
	time. So we dont have much time to waste on quibbling.
=09
	As a starter, lets share some experiences. We can then move
towards
	defininig what would be useful. We can then debate about
different
	aspects of what mechanisms fit better and why.
=09
	So i am attaching a text file which describes some of the
experiences we
	have gathered. If we can get something from the two other
protocols=20
	then it would be extremely a good start.=20
=09
	Thoughts?
=09
	cheers,
	jamal
	 =20
=09
  _____ =20




	1) Application level multicasting and broadcasting in addition
	to unicasting.
=09
	We have found this to be extremely useful.
=09
	Accomplished via PID addressing.
=09
	We used source and destination 32 bit PIDs. It may be useful
	to have larger sized PIDs to make them UUIDs. Example 128 bits.
=09
	PIDs were used in addressing the following:
	- LFBs on the FE,=20
	- proxies for LFBs,
	- proxies for control application in the form of  CECs on CEs,=20
	- the FE,
	- the CE.
=09
	2) Reliability and using unicast, multicast, broadcast
transport.
=09
	Note this has nothing to do with application multicasting.
=09
	Although we never had the opportunity to work with a=20
	broadcast transport, we do believe that the experience
	here applies to broadcast as well using some other transports
	such as TIPC.
=09
	The config selection (on what transports/sockets to use) happens

	via FEM/CEM channel agreement.
	In most setups each FE had one TCP connection and one or more=20
	multicast over UDP connections. The several multicast groups=20
	were created on a per need basis. Example we had one group that
sent=20
	config and another that waited for events (such as link events).
	What we discovered that although we found use for the one TCP
connection,
	there was clearly no such clear demarcation for how many
multicast connections
	would be needed.
=09
	Caution on reliability needs:
	The focus in Netlink2 is application level reliability.
	Therefore regradless of what transport is used, when reliability
is
	desired the application level must take care of ensuring it.
	When the transport underneath provides reliability it will be
taken
	advanatge of. It should be noted, however, that a reliable
transport merely
	provides reliable transmission; in ForCES, you need to know more
than
	that - you need to know that the remote end successfully applied
the
	command issued (i.e successful transaction).
=09
	More, in the case of multicast reliability whcih we successfuly
used:
	Reliability was provided on a per message basis (not possible
	to do with TCP). App also had opportunity to remove messages
	considered obsolete(send_undo).
	The design goal to provide Netlink2 reliable multicast was
	narrowed down within a single hop of an IP network. In other
words,
	no multicast state needs to be maintained within any
intermediate=20
	router. Summary: Reliable multicast is only expected to work
	within a single hop.
	This reduces a lot of the complexity in the protocol and the
	implementation that is typical in building reliable multicast=20
	protocols that span multi IP hops (such as the case of RMT like=20
	reliability).
	While some of the existing RM protocols could have been taken
and
	adopted in their simplest form, the requirement for reliability
is very
	simple in netlink2 given the single hop need and therefore there
is
	no need to adopt any of the existing protocols.
	As an example LGMP could have been used with no need to build a=20
	hierarchy of Local Groups for error recovery. It would have been

	sufficient to define a single "local group" with the=20
	multicast sender(CE) as "group controller", i.e there would be
no need=20
	for the LGCP protocol for dynamic building of hierarchies. But
even
	this simplification is considered fat.
=09
	The unicast transport was used only for backup purposes when
	reliability of the multicast became suspect. As an example:
	when a multicast transmit happened from CE to a group of FEs and

	one or more of those FEs failed to ACK, then the retransmit for
the=20
	particular failed FE(s) happens over the unicast TCP connection.
=09
	Our experience indicates there was very rarely any need to
retransmit.
	We believe this had to do with the size of our standard NE which
	had six to twelve FEs connected over a fairly reliable multicast

	capable fabric.  i.e this experience does not dilute the need
for=20
	reliability.
=09
	3) The following  mechanisms were found to be very useful.
	a) ability to do atomic transactions via 2 phase commits. Allows
	several FEs to sync their entries in one shot.
	b) Batching for increased throughput and markers for batching
	and what happens when a failure occurs.
	In our case we implemented the "All up to the failed one are
applied"
=09
	4) IP independence
	IP is very valuable as the underlying transport.
	We initially coded so that we could run directly over=20
	ethernet, but eventually did not exercise that code very much.
	The reason is we ended focussing on building around IP instead.
	We do feel however that it would be valuable to have
independence
	so that the protocol can run over Ethernet if needed.
	In our investigation we found that many vendors have config
protocols=20
	that run over Layer2 to avoid having to depend on IP i.e the IP
layer may
	either not be ready or provisioned (example many of the CISCO
	protocols like CPD, UDLD etc).
	We also found that there are a lot of board to board and chip
	to chip transports (dont run over IP) that would be valuable to
consider=20
	if ForCES is to be the protocol of choice.
=09
=09
	5) Packet encoding.=20
	- Our design goal was to have to have the highest throughput
	and lowest latency possible. The reason for this is because=20
	this is how the market judges the capacity of a NE.=20
	Our FEs had slow CPUs mostly (in the range of PPC 82xx, ARM
SA110)
	controlling some local switch chips. We expect initially this is

	the setup that will be the most common in the market.
=09
	Binary encoding was used to be able to pack as much as possible
	within an allowed MTU. TLVs were used to map the various
attributes.
	TLVs within TLVs were used to encode complex attributes such as
	lists or compound structures.
=09
	In retrospect based on our current experiences, the following
layout
	maybe useful:
=09
	     0                   1                   2
3
	     0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
0 1
=09
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
	    |
|
	    |                   Netlink2 message header
|
	    |
|
=09
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
	    |
|
	    |                        Attributes
|
	    |
|
=09
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
=09
=09
=09
	Although the per-service template(refer to netlink and netlink2
docs)
	was useful, we believe that we could be more generic and pack
more=20
	attributes per message with the above layout.
=09
=09
	     0                   1                   2
3
	     0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
0 1
	                     0               1               2
3
=09
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
	    |             Command         |               Length
|
=09
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
	    |                          Source PID
|
=09
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
	    |                        Destination PID
|
=09
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
	    |                        Sequence Number
|
=09
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
	    |             flags           |             typeid
|
=09
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
=09
=09
	The commands are no longer specific to or used to address the
service.=20
	The service addressing now solely resides in the PIDs.
	We envision that the command would be of the sort of ADD, DEL,
GET.
	The PID will address the entity being targeted.
	[A command from a CE -> FE is for querying or configuration,
whereas one
	from FE -> CE is a response or event].
=09
	In our implementation we extended the popular tcpdump sniffer to
look
	at the packet and decode it for protocol debugging purposes.
	For this reason we need to identify the class of LFB etc the
target
	entity is on. Hence the new typeid field makes sense as an
addition.
=09
	XML encoding:
	We believe XML encoding may be useful in capabilities definition
	(i.e slow path) but not in the configuration of data path
tables.
	This is because of its nature to require higher bandwith and
	CPU computational needs.
=09
	TLVs:
=09
	    0                   1                   2
3
	    0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
0 1
=09
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
	   | TLV Type                    | variable TLV Length
|
=09
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
	   ~
~
	   |            Value (Data of size TLV length)
|
	   ~
~
=09
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
=09
	We were able to extend the data in the TLV to contain another
	TLV to build complex structures (such as the ones described in
	XML by the model draft).
=09
	Example:
	    0                   1                   2
3
	    0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
0 1
=09
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
	   | Outer TLV Type              |    Outer TLV Length
|
=09
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
	   | Inner TLV1 Type             |   Inner TLV1 Length
|
=09
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
	   | ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~           VALUE1    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
|
=09
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
	   | Inner TLV2 Type             |   Inner TLV2 Length
|
=09
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
	   | ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~           VALUE2    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
|
=09
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
=09
=09
	Which could be used to represent the following layout :
=09
	  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+        .-~-~-~-~-~-~-.
	  |  TLV1               | ------>|   param 1   |
	  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+         -~-~-~-~-~-~-
	  |  TLV2               | --->--+
	  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+       |
	                                V
	                                |
	                               /
	                  +-----------+
	                  |          =20
	                  V                 .-~-~-~-~-~-~-.
	                  |            +--->|  param2_1   |=20
	  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+      |     -~-~-~-~-~-~-=20
	  |  TLV2_1             | --->-+       .-~-~-~-~-~-~-.
	  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+         +--->| param2_2    |
	  |  TLV2_2             | --->----+     -~-~-~-~-~-~-=20
	  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ =20
=09
=09
	It is thought that TLVs and nested TLVs will generally
constitute
	slightly higher requirements for compute and bandwdith than
encodings=20
	based on fixed layouts (XML is many more factors demanding).=20
	The added advantage with TLV usage of course is ability to add
new=20
	TLVs easily without redefining the packet or the protocol.
	In addition, being able to optionally leave a TLV out during
communication
	(the message example would have been perfectly decoded if TLV1
was
	never encoded).
=09
	A small challenge that needs to be overcome for TLVs is to
detect
	where failures happen (when you have a list or other compound
structure).=20
	This is mostly useful/needed for batching or configuring a list
of elements.=20
	If we were to use our implementation as a sample space: we had
the "all=20
	upto failed one applied" scheme, in which case a NACK with the
failed=20
	TLV Type is sent back.
=09
	An interesting idea is to encode an 8 bit sequence number in the

	type to find precisely which TLV failed.
=09
=09
	6) Dynamic capability addition
=09
	In our implementation we found it was very useful to be able
	to add dynamic capabilities at runtime as opposed to assume
	they are available at setup time. For this reason we introduced
an=20
	event to announce capabilities of an FE to a CE.
	Although the FEM/CEM interface could have been used, we
implemented
	via the FE/CE interface.
=09
	An alternative scheme may have been for the CE to poll the FE to
ask for
	its capabilities in a timer. This approach may also be
considered
	orthogonal to the previous one.
=09
	7) PID distribution/Allocation
=09
	In our implementation a range of PIDs were allocated by the CE
to each FE at
	the FEM/CEM interface. It was upto the FE to issue some of these

	PIDs to the LFBs or their proxies (without going into details by

	doing local OS PID mapping).
=09
	We implemented such that broadcast PIDs (example: AllFEs,
AllNAT, etc)=20
	were statically defined as opposed to be dynamically selected.
	This was just to reduce state in the CE.
=09
	8) High Availability
=09
	Our efforts to discover any challenges posed by HA are still
ongoing.
	At the moment FEs and CEs backing each other sync by joining the
	same multicast groups and listen to the same logical PIDs.
=09
	We have implemented such that a logical PID may be mapped to
several
	unicast connections. We however, have not experimented yet on=20
	uni-replicasting to multiple C/FEs.=20
=09
	We have various alternatives that maybe useful (To be ADDED
here).
=09
	 =20


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charset=3Dus-ascii">
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<BODY text=3D#000000 bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D274413021-26022004><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>(Resending to add to =
archive)</FONT></SPAN></DIV></DIV><BR>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
<HR tabIndex=3D-1>
<FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> Alex Audu =
[mailto:alex.audu@alcatel.com]=20
<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, February 26, 2004 12:32 PM<BR><B>To:</B>=20
hadi@znyx.com<BR><B>Cc:</B> Khosravi, Hormuzd M; Putzolu, David;=20
gmwang@mail.hzic.edu.cn; donglg@mail.hzic.edu.cn; =
spyros.denazis@hitachi-eu.com;=20
Steve Blake; Robert Haas; ram.gopal@nokia.com; Wang,Weiming; Patrick =
Droz; jeff=20
pickering; avri@acm.org; Deleganes, Ellen M; gyf@htrdc.com;=20
zsolt.haraszti@ericsson.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: ForCES Protocol =
Analysis=20
Design Team Administrivia<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>Hello Jamal,<BR><BR>Thanks for the experience report with=20
NetLink2.&nbsp; After a quick scan, I quickly came<BR>to the conclusion =
that we=20
may not want to go this route.&nbsp; My reason is the =
severely<BR>limited scope=20
of the test bed.: <BR>&nbsp; 1) one hop (far cry from ForCEs=20
requirement)<BR>&nbsp; 2) does not take into account the currently =
evolving=20
meta-data work. So,..what we currently =
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; have=20
out there is not fully ForCEs compliant.<BR><BR>As a starter, you can't =
burden=20
the application layer with the&nbsp; responsibility of=20
correcting<BR>&nbsp;problems resulting from delivering application data =
out of=20
order.&nbsp; You just can't mandate<BR>that. At least, that is not what=20
currently prevails.<BR><BR>What I think we should do is start with a =
list of=20
features we can't live without and then<BR>take it from there.&nbsp; And =
also,=20
we should all respect the spirit of the ForCEs requirements.<BR>That is =
the only=20
thing we have as a guide. <BR><BR>Regards,<BR>Alex.<BR><BR>Jamal Hadi =
Salim=20
wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite=3Dmid1077812841.1029.95.camel@jzny.localdomain =
type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">On Wed, 2004-02-25 at 21:39, Khosravi, =
Hormuzd M wrote:
  </PRE>
  <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"><PRE wrap=3D"">Hi All,

I am personally fine with the proposal by Jamal to list=20
any features the protocol authors cant live without.=20

Jamal, are there any other ground rules you have in mind ?
Why don't you send a list of features which you would like=20
to see and we can start the discussion from there ?
    </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE wrap=3D""><!---->

I think the most important approach is to look at this as
an opportunity (for all of us) to create a very useful protocol.
Seems to me we all have good experiences that we can put to use.
There will be differences in opionions, but the hope is that there
are differences in technical (not political) opinion. Lets all be ready
to make technical compromises for the sake of a good protocol.
My thoughts are we should be doing some sort of interop by San Diego
time. So we dont have much time to waste on quibbling.

As a starter, lets share some experiences. We can then move towards
defininig what would be useful. We can then debate about different
aspects of what mechanisms fit better and why.

So i am attaching a text file which describes some of the experiences we
have gathered. If we can get something from the two other protocols=20
then it would be extremely a good start.=20

Thoughts?

cheers,
jamal
  </PRE><PRE wrap=3D""><HR width=3D"90%" SIZE=3D4>


1) Application level multicasting and broadcasting in addition
to unicasting.

We have found this to be extremely useful.

Accomplished via PID addressing.

We used source and destination 32 bit PIDs. It may be useful
to have larger sized PIDs to make them UUIDs. Example 128 bits.

PIDs were used in addressing the following:
- LFBs on the FE,=20
- proxies for LFBs,
- proxies for control application in the form of  CECs on CEs,=20
- the FE,
- the CE.

2) Reliability and using unicast, multicast, broadcast transport.

Note this has nothing to do with application multicasting.

Although we never had the opportunity to work with a=20
broadcast transport, we do believe that the experience
here applies to broadcast as well using some other transports
such as TIPC.

The config selection (on what transports/sockets to use) happens=20
via FEM/CEM channel agreement.
In most setups each FE had one TCP connection and one or more=20
multicast over UDP connections. The several multicast groups=20
were created on a per need basis. Example we had one group that sent=20
config and another that waited for events (such as link events).
What we discovered that although we found use for the one TCP =
connection,
there was clearly no such clear demarcation for how many multicast =
connections
would be needed.

Caution on reliability needs:
The focus in Netlink2 is application level reliability.
Therefore regradless of what transport is used, when reliability is
desired the application level must take care of ensuring it.
When the transport underneath provides reliability it will be taken
advanatge of. It should be noted, however, that a reliable transport =
merely
provides reliable transmission; in ForCES, you need to know more than
that - you need to know that the remote end successfully applied the
command issued (i.e successful transaction).

More, in the case of multicast reliability whcih we successfuly used:
Reliability was provided on a per message basis (not possible
to do with TCP). App also had opportunity to remove messages
considered obsolete(send_undo).
The design goal to provide Netlink2 reliable multicast was
narrowed down within a single hop of an IP network. In other words,
no multicast state needs to be maintained within any intermediate=20
router. Summary: Reliable multicast is only expected to work
within a single hop.
This reduces a lot of the complexity in the protocol and the
implementation that is typical in building reliable multicast=20
protocols that span multi IP hops (such as the case of RMT like=20
reliability).
While some of the existing RM protocols could have been taken and
adopted in their simplest form, the requirement for reliability is very
simple in netlink2 given the single hop need and therefore there is
no need to adopt any of the existing protocols.
As an example LGMP could have been used with no need to build a=20
hierarchy of Local Groups for error recovery. It would have been=20
sufficient to define a single "local group" with the=20
multicast sender(CE) as "group controller", i.e there would be no need=20
for the LGCP protocol for dynamic building of hierarchies. But even
this simplification is considered fat.

The unicast transport was used only for backup purposes when
reliability of the multicast became suspect. As an example:
when a multicast transmit happened from CE to a group of FEs and=20
one or more of those FEs failed to ACK, then the retransmit for the=20
particular failed FE(s) happens over the unicast TCP connection.

Our experience indicates there was very rarely any need to retransmit.
We believe this had to do with the size of our standard NE which
had six to twelve FEs connected over a fairly reliable multicast=20
capable fabric.  i.e this experience does not dilute the need for=20
reliability.

3) The following  mechanisms were found to be very useful.
a) ability to do atomic transactions via 2 phase commits. Allows
several FEs to sync their entries in one shot.
b) Batching for increased throughput and markers for batching
and what happens when a failure occurs.
In our case we implemented the "All up to the failed one are applied"

4) IP independence
IP is very valuable as the underlying transport.
We initially coded so that we could run directly over=20
ethernet, but eventually did not exercise that code very much.
The reason is we ended focussing on building around IP instead.
We do feel however that it would be valuable to have independence
so that the protocol can run over Ethernet if needed.
In our investigation we found that many vendors have config protocols=20
that run over Layer2 to avoid having to depend on IP i.e the IP layer =
may
either not be ready or provisioned (example many of the CISCO
protocols like CPD, UDLD etc).
We also found that there are a lot of board to board and chip
to chip transports (dont run over IP) that would be valuable to consider =

if ForCES is to be the protocol of choice.


5) Packet encoding.=20
- Our design goal was to have to have the highest throughput
and lowest latency possible. The reason for this is because=20
this is how the market judges the capacity of a NE.=20
Our FEs had slow CPUs mostly (in the range of PPC 82xx, ARM SA110)
controlling some local switch chips. We expect initially this is=20
the setup that will be the most common in the market.

Binary encoding was used to be able to pack as much as possible
within an allowed MTU. TLVs were used to map the various attributes.
TLVs within TLVs were used to encode complex attributes such as
lists or compound structures.

In retrospect based on our current experiences, the following layout
maybe useful:

     0                   1                   2                   3
     0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
    |                                                               |
    |                   Netlink2 message header                     |
    |                                                               |
    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
    |                                                               |
    |                        Attributes                             |
    |                                                               |
    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+



Although the per-service template(refer to netlink and netlink2 docs)
was useful, we believe that we could be more generic and pack more=20
attributes per message with the above layout.


     0                   1                   2                   3
     0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
                     0               1               2             3
    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
    |             Command         |               Length            |
    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
    |                          Source PID                           |
    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
    |                        Destination PID                        |
    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
    |                        Sequence Number                        |
    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
    |             flags           |             typeid              |
    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+


The commands are no longer specific to or used to address the service.=20
The service addressing now solely resides in the PIDs.
We envision that the command would be of the sort of ADD, DEL, GET.
The PID will address the entity being targeted.
[A command from a CE -&gt; FE is for querying or configuration, whereas =
one
from FE -&gt; CE is a response or event].

In our implementation we extended the popular tcpdump sniffer to look
at the packet and decode it for protocol debugging purposes.
For this reason we need to identify the class of LFB etc the target
entity is on. Hence the new typeid field makes sense as an addition.

XML encoding:
We believe XML encoding may be useful in capabilities definition
(i.e slow path) but not in the configuration of data path tables.
This is because of its nature to require higher bandwith and
CPU computational needs.

TLVs:

    0                   1                   2                   3
    0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
   | TLV Type                    | variable TLV Length             |
   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
   ~                                                               ~
   |            Value (Data of size TLV length)                    |
   ~                                                               ~
   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

We were able to extend the data in the TLV to contain another
TLV to build complex structures (such as the ones described in
XML by the model draft).

Example:
    0                   1                   2                   3
    0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
   | Outer TLV Type              |    Outer TLV Length             |
   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
   | Inner TLV1 Type             |   Inner TLV1 Length             |
   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
   | ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~           VALUE1    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~     |
   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
   | Inner TLV2 Type             |   Inner TLV2 Length             |
   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
   | ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~           VALUE2    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~     |
   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+


Which could be used to represent the following layout :

  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+        .-~-~-~-~-~-~-.
  |  TLV1               | ------&gt;|   param 1   |
  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+         -~-~-~-~-~-~-
  |  TLV2               | ---&gt;--+
  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+       |
                                V
                                |
                               /
                  +-----------+
                  |          =20
                  V                 .-~-~-~-~-~-~-.
                  |            +---&gt;|  param2_1   |=20
  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+      |     -~-~-~-~-~-~-=20
  |  TLV2_1             | ---&gt;-+       .-~-~-~-~-~-~-.
  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+         +---&gt;| param2_2    |
  |  TLV2_2             | ---&gt;----+     -~-~-~-~-~-~-=20
  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ =20


It is thought that TLVs and nested TLVs will generally constitute
slightly higher requirements for compute and bandwdith than encodings=20
based on fixed layouts (XML is many more factors demanding).=20
The added advantage with TLV usage of course is ability to add new=20
TLVs easily without redefining the packet or the protocol.
In addition, being able to optionally leave a TLV out during =
communication
(the message example would have been perfectly decoded if TLV1 was
never encoded).

A small challenge that needs to be overcome for TLVs is to detect
where failures happen (when you have a list or other compound =
structure).=20
This is mostly useful/needed for batching or configuring a list of =
elements.=20
If we were to use our implementation as a sample space: we had the "all=20
upto failed one applied" scheme, in which case a NACK with the failed=20
TLV Type is sent back.

An interesting idea is to encode an 8 bit sequence number in the=20
type to find precisely which TLV failed.


6) Dynamic capability addition

In our implementation we found it was very useful to be able
to add dynamic capabilities at runtime as opposed to assume
they are available at setup time. For this reason we introduced an=20
event to announce capabilities of an FE to a CE.
Although the FEM/CEM interface could have been used, we implemented
via the FE/CE interface.

An alternative scheme may have been for the CE to poll the FE to ask for
its capabilities in a timer. This approach may also be considered
orthogonal to the previous one.

7) PID distribution/Allocation

In our implementation a range of PIDs were allocated by the CE to each =
FE at
the FEM/CEM interface. It was upto the FE to issue some of these=20
PIDs to the LFBs or their proxies (without going into details by=20
doing local OS PID mapping).

We implemented such that broadcast PIDs (example: AllFEs, AllNAT, etc)=20
were statically defined as opposed to be dynamically selected.
This was just to reduce state in the CE.

8) High Availability

Our efforts to discover any challenges posed by HA are still ongoing.
At the moment FEs and CEs backing each other sync by joining the
same multicast groups and listen to the same logical PIDs.

We have implemented such that a logical PID may be mapped to several
unicast connections. We however, have not experimented yet on=20
uni-replicasting to multiple C/FEs.=20

We have various alternatives that maybe useful (To be ADDED here).

  </PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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All,

By now you should have received notification of
being subscribed to the forces protocol discussion
design team mailing list. =20

To use this list just send messages to:
forces-protocol@ietf.org

This is a Mailman-based list, if you are familiar
with other IETF lists you should be able to utilize
this list in the same fashion.

I have forwarded all previously exchanged messages between
various forces protocol discussion design team members
to the list, so I suggest everyone review the list archives
as a first step to get up to speed:

https://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/working-groups/forces-protocol/

If you know of someone missing from the list, or are
incorrectly subscribed, please contact me.

Cheers,
David

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Subject: RE: [Forces-protocol] Fw: ForCES Protocol Analysis Design Team Administrivia
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Hello Weiming,
=20
Alex missed out my name in his first email. See my comments inside  the =
tag <Ramg> =20

-----Original Message-----
From: forces-protocol-admin@ietf.org =
[mailto:forces-protocol-admin@ietf.org]On Behalf Of ext Wang,Weiming
Sent: Friday, February 27, 2004 7:56 AM
To: forces-protocol@ietf.org
Subject: [Forces-protocol] Fw: ForCES Protocol Analysis Design Team =
Administrivia


=20
Hi Alex,
=20
Thank you for your comments. Pls see the inline reply.
=20
Best regards,
Weiming

----- Original Message -----=20
From: Alex  <mailto:alex.audu@alcatel.com> Audu=20
To: Wang,Weiming <mailto:wmwang@mail.hzic.edu.cn> =20
Cc: avri <mailto:avri@psg.com>  ; Chaoping Wu =
<mailto:chaopingwu@comcast.net>  ; Deleganes Ellen M =
<mailto:ellen.m.deleganes@intel.com>  ; Dong,  =
<mailto:donglg@mail.hzic.edu.cn> Ligang ; Guo,  <mailto:gyf@htrdc.com> =
Yunfei ; Jamal Hadi  <mailto:hadi@znyx.com> Salim ; Jeff Pickering =
<mailto:jpickering@creeksidenet.com>  ; Jon  =
<mailto:jon.maloy@ericsson.com> Maloy ; Khosravi, Hormuzd M =
<mailto:hormuzd.m.khosravi@intel.com>  ; Patrick Droz =
<mailto:dro@zurich.ibm.com>  ; Putzolu David =
<mailto:david.putzolu@intel.com>  ; Robert Haas =
<mailto:rha@zurich.ibm.com>  ; Spyros Denazis =
<mailto:spyros.denazis@hitachi-eu.com>  ; Steve  =
<mailto:slblake@torrentnet.com> Blake ; Wang, Guangming =
<mailto:gmwang@mail.hzic.edu.cn> =20
Sent: Friday, February 27, 2004 2:06 AM
Subject: Re: ForCES Protocol Analysis Design Team Administrivia


Hello Weiming,

I'll address some of the issues you raised.

1) Seperate Data Redirect and Control channels/ relative importance of =
Control vs Redirect info
    It is easy to see that the redirect data can be manipulated by an =
outside source (External to=20
     the NE).  In the case of such a source being malicious, it is =
necessary to give priority to=20
     the control data to maintain integrity of the NE.

      You sighted BGP experience.  Indeed, the realization that it is =
safer to separate externally
       generated control data like redirect-data from internally =
generated control data grew out
       of  experience gleamed from past DOS attacks on BGP.

2)  C channel and D channel are on the same physical link.   For DOS =
survivability, you need=20
      to seperate then somehow. If you use SCTP, you can put them on =
separate streams on
       the same link. That will work.  But what will be best is a =
non-reliable congestion aware
      stream/link for  D-channel and a reliable stream/link for =
C-channel.
       Rate controlling is important. But if  you need to allow your C =
information to flow freely
       to adaptively effect counter-meassures if the NE is being DOS'd.

Re. 1&2:  I suppose a separation of D and C packets inside FE while =
using only one stream(channel) to accross the=20
physical link (GRMP DoS protection scheme) can also achieve all these =
goals (DoS protection, rate control, priority,=20
security, reliability). We just ask that if we don't need to provide the =
two diffenrent channels in the physical link so
 as to prevent DoS, are we still interested in giving the D packets a =
different transport reliability?

3) Delay of D packets by  delay of C packets.   This sould not happen if =
your channels are
     independent. And  D packets may dictate what C packets get sent to =
the FE.  The
     problem might be related to the way your real-time processes are =
running the D and C=20
     queues.  You can play with thread priorities,..etc to resolve this.

Re: Yes, this is because of the congestion of queues of D packets and C =
packets, but the same will
also happen to separated D/C channels if they use the same physical =
link. Only the difference is the latter
may use OS kernel to schedule while the former uses ForCES protocol =
defined scheduler.=20

4) C/D separation resource cost:   This is not as expensive as the cost =
paid when DOS
     attacks occur.  Besides, hardware resources are getting cheaper by =
the day,..and=20
     processors are getting faster too. =20
=20
Re:  again, by separating the D packets and C packets inside an FE, we =
can also prevent DoS efficiently.=20

General comments. May be a way to go forward is to make it a SHOULD to =
implement
 (on seperate D/C channels) and leave the rest up to implementation,...I =
am not sure. Any comments?
=20
Re: I agree. What we propose is only to limit such a separation inside =
an FE instead of expanding it to the FE-CE link.

Regards,
Alex.21

Wang,Weiming wrote:


Hi David,



Regarding the proposed basic principles, we (GRMP group) have some =
comments for  principles item 7&8:

--------

7.      The ForCES protocol should support separate channels for Control =
and Data messages. The data=20

channel carries the routing/control protocol packets such as RIP, OSPF =
packets, between the CEs and FEs.=20

These packets are unique in most cases for a particular CE:FE pair and =
hence the data channel will use unicast=20

connections between the CEs and FEs. Also, the data channel does not =
have to be strictly reliable but does=20

need to provide flow/congestion control to protect against DoS attacks.



8.      The control channel must provide strict reliability =
(non-corruption, no loss, no reordering, timeliness) at the=20

transport level in accordance with the RFC 3654. In addition, ForCES =
protocol level responses/acknowledgements=20

are also needed from FE to CE to learn the results of =
configuration/control messages.

--------



First of all, we agree that to distinguish ForCES messages into control =
messages and data (redirect) messages are=20

essential for DoS protection scheme. Then, we argue that to separate the =
two kinds of messages into two different=20

transport channels with the data channel being appointed to a lower =
reliable level (such as UDP, compared with TCP)=20

may not be a good enough scheme for such purpose. The reasons are:



1. The data (redirect) ForCES messages seem have no reason to be =
appointed to a lower reliability, compared with=20

control channel messages.  We may needn't  to argue how important some =
of the redirected messages are for a=20

router (an NE), we just argue that  the reliability for ForCES data =
message transport should not be lower than that of the=20

connection over which the routing/control protocol packets  are =
transported. An example is the BGP protocol messages,=20

which have already been assigned to use TCP instead of UDP for the =
transports. We think the communication between CEs=20

and FEs (which is inside an NE) has no reason to greatly induce extra =
performance loss other than that from outside of=20

an NE for such routing protocol packets. By saying this, we don't mean =
all ForCES messages should not be loaded over UDP,=20

we just propose that it's may be too early to distinguish the redirect =
messages from other configuration messages inside ForCES=20

protocol specifications.




[<Ramg>]  As you pointed out exactly that BGP runs on TCP and provides =
its own reliability mechanism and so as other routing protocols have =
some form of inbuit mechanism and this is the reason
we need not address in our ForCES protocol for data channel. Some =
traffic we don't need retransmission and reliability in D channel as it =
is handled by those protocols themselves. =20
<RamG>
   2. Generally speaking, separated C channel and D channel are still =
put over the same physical link (or else there is almost=20
no need to protect DoS). Therefore, such a separation itself does not =
provide any DoS protection, instead, the protection is obtained by the =
rate control of D channel. We argue that such a rate control actually =
can be obtained at the ForCES message layer instead of at the message =
transport layer. Some of our experiment results (which will be presented =
at the IETF meeting) have shown this feasibility. Moreover, a separation =
at transport layer surely will complicate the CE-FE association and the =
followed message transport management.=20
[<Ramg>]=20
=20
I think everyone agrees this and understand this point. It is the CE =
which uses ForCES Message to convey the ratelimting value for C and D =
channel FE. It is the FE which forwards the packet to the CE and hence =
one FE need to know the parameter. Here the rate limiter values could be =
different in either direction..
=20
 3. We have also noticed a phenomenon during our experiments, which we =
may need to pay some attention. I recalled when FACT first presented the =
D and C channel idea, there was a question worrying about the =
asyncronization between D and C channel. Our experiments have shown =
that, although there is no strict asyncronization problem between D and =
C channel owing to the data independence, there is a possibility that D =
channel packets may be seriously delayed and even blocked owing to the =
busy traffic at C channel if D packets are separated from C packets. The =
busy traffic at C channel may happen when CE queries FE for something =
and FE dumps quite a huge number of messages (such as routing table =
items.) Such a delay or blocking may be counted in seconds, resulted in =
very harmful effect on the users of redirected packets. As a result, we =
propose that a moderate rate control for C channel be also necessary.=20
[<Ramg>]=20
=20
Please see the previous reply. The dumping of huge data confirms to the =
rate limiter value which was done and acks are being presented in FACT =
layer to ensure that message delivery and message execution. We have =
implemented this and it is running fine.
=20
<Ramg>
 4. To explicitly separate D and C channel also consumes more resources, =
because a resources for D channel have to be reserved. Instead, by =
separating D and C packets at the ForCES protocol layer and uniting them =
again at the transport layer, we may able to make a scheduling =
discipline by which the D and C packets can share the link resources =
effectively. We are trying to construct such a scheduling scheme, and it =
seems quite practical to so.To summarize, we propose that the 7&8 basic =
principles only mention the separation of D and C packets for DoS =
protection currently, leaving some space for further discussions. The =
discussions may be like: 1. Should such a separation be put at the =
ForCES message layer or at the transport layer? Which is better?2. =
Whether united scheduling for D and C packets are necessary?3. Should D =
packets be distinguished from C packets for its transport reliability in =
ForCES protocol so as to assign a different transport means?Regarding =
the protocol merge proposal, we'd like to present some of our thinking =
in a few words:Firstly, as a new comer to IETF work, the GRMP group =
surely welcome such a merge proposal, sincerely hoping an all merits in =
one draft can be achieved for ForCES WG, and at the same time hoping to =
learn from other candidate authors, whom we have already been respecting =
to for their rich knowledge and excellent contributions to IETF and =
other fields. Secondly, we believe that the interaction among the =
candidate drafts are very helpful for the final ForCES protocol. =
Actually there already has been such interaction since the ForCES =
protocol evaluation process began, which has already made individual =
candidate drafts ever improved. Thirdly, to make the process successful, =
we believe that a nice atmosphere is very important. In such an =
atmosphere, everyone has a peaceable state of mind, precisely speaking, =
a mind ready to give up and accept, and individuals' work can be fully =
respected. Our past experience has made us believe that it is almost =
impossible to reach a compromise among group members where some think of =
their work much outstanding to others. Lastly, as Jamal has mentioned, =
some ground rules is important so as to eliminate conflicts whenever =
there are. Regarding the merge action way, we agree candidates to =
propose their "can't live without" first. Along with this, we also =
suggest candidates propose "what they think the contents in their drafts =
are useful for final protocol and hope able to be put in it". This =
useful contents are a little different from the "features of the =
drafts", because we suppose the contents proposed should be =
conservatively considered by presenters to be able to merge with other =
contents. Thank you.Beset Regards,Weiming Wang
[<Ramg>]=20
If we make separation on transport layer then we have few transport =
choices and many not be widely deployable. It is upto the group to =
decide. If we deal with the ForCES messaging layer then it has this =
messaging can be applied to other non-ip transport too.
=20
<Ramg>
 End of comment=20
Regards
Ramg


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<BODY text=3D#000000 bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D479502213-27022004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Hello=20
Weiming,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D479502213-27022004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D479502213-27022004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Alex=20
missed out my name in his first email. See my comments inside&nbsp; the =
tag=20
&lt;Ramg&gt;&nbsp; </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
  size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>=20
  forces-protocol-admin@ietf.org =
[mailto:forces-protocol-admin@ietf.org]<B>On=20
  Behalf Of </B>ext Wang,Weiming<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, February 27, =
2004 7:56=20
  AM<BR><B>To:</B> forces-protocol@ietf.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> =
[Forces-protocol]=20
  Fw: ForCES Protocol Analysis Design Team =
Administrivia<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hi Alex,</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thank you for your comments. Pls see =
the inline=20
  reply.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Best regards,</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Weiming</FONT></DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
  style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
    <DIV=20
    style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
    <A title=3Dalex.audu@alcatel.com =
href=3D"mailto:alex.audu@alcatel.com">Alex=20
    Audu</A> </DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dwmwang@mail.hzic.edu.cn=20
    href=3D"mailto:wmwang@mail.hzic.edu.cn">Wang,Weiming</A> </DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=3Davri@psg.com=20
    href=3D"mailto:avri@psg.com">avri</A> ; <A =
title=3Dchaopingwu@comcast.net=20
    href=3D"mailto:chaopingwu@comcast.net">Chaoping Wu</A> ; <A=20
    title=3Dellen.m.deleganes@intel.com=20
    href=3D"mailto:ellen.m.deleganes@intel.com">Deleganes Ellen M</A> ; =
<A=20
    title=3Ddonglg@mail.hzic.edu.cn =
href=3D"mailto:donglg@mail.hzic.edu.cn">Dong,=20
    Ligang</A> ; <A title=3Dgyf@htrdc.com =
href=3D"mailto:gyf@htrdc.com">Guo,=20
    Yunfei</A> ; <A title=3Dhadi@znyx.com =
href=3D"mailto:hadi@znyx.com">Jamal Hadi=20
    Salim</A> ; <A title=3Djpickering@creeksidenet.com=20
    href=3D"mailto:jpickering@creeksidenet.com">Jeff Pickering</A> ; <A=20
    title=3Djon.maloy@ericsson.com =
href=3D"mailto:jon.maloy@ericsson.com">Jon=20
    Maloy</A> ; <A title=3Dhormuzd.m.khosravi@intel.com=20
    href=3D"mailto:hormuzd.m.khosravi@intel.com">Khosravi, Hormuzd M</A> =
; <A=20
    title=3Ddro@zurich.ibm.com =
href=3D"mailto:dro@zurich.ibm.com">Patrick Droz</A> ;=20
    <A title=3Ddavid.putzolu@intel.com=20
    href=3D"mailto:david.putzolu@intel.com">Putzolu David</A> ; <A=20
    title=3Drha@zurich.ibm.com href=3D"mailto:rha@zurich.ibm.com">Robert =
Haas</A> ;=20
    <A title=3Dspyros.denazis@hitachi-eu.com=20
    href=3D"mailto:spyros.denazis@hitachi-eu.com">Spyros Denazis</A> ; =
<A=20
    title=3Dslblake@torrentnet.com =
href=3D"mailto:slblake@torrentnet.com">Steve=20
    Blake</A> ; <A title=3Dgmwang@mail.hzic.edu.cn=20
    href=3D"mailto:gmwang@mail.hzic.edu.cn">Wang, Guangming</A> </DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, February 27, =
2004 2:06=20
    AM</DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: ForCES Protocol =
Analysis=20
    Design Team Administrivia</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT><FONT=20
    face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><BR></DIV>
    <DIV>Hello Weiming,<BR><BR>I'll address some of the issues you=20
    raised.<BR><BR>1) Seperate Data Redirect and Control channels/ =
relative=20
    importance of Control vs Redirect info<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; It is =
easy to=20
    see that the redirect data can be manipulated by an outside source =
(External=20
    to <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the NE).&nbsp; In the case of such a =
source=20
    being malicious, it is necessary to give priority to=20
    <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the control data to maintain integrity =
of the=20
    NE.<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; You sighted BGP =
experience.&nbsp;=20
    Indeed, the realization that it is safer to separate=20
    externally<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; generated control =
data=20
    like redirect-data from internally generated control data grew=20
    out<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; of&nbsp; experience =
gleamed from=20
    past DOS attacks on BGP.<BR><BR>2)&nbsp; C channel and D channel are =
on the=20
    same physical link.&nbsp;&nbsp; For DOS survivability, you need=20
    <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; to seperate then somehow. If you =
use=20
    SCTP, you can put them on separate streams=20
    on<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the same link. That will=20
    work.&nbsp; But what will be best is a non-reliable congestion=20
    aware<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; stream/link for&nbsp; D-channel and a =
reliable=20
    stream/link for C-channel.<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Rate=20
    controlling is important. But if&nbsp; you need to allow your C =
information=20
    to flow freely<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; to adaptively =
effect=20
    counter-meassures if the NE is being DOS'd.<BR></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Re. 1&amp;2:&nbsp; I suppose a =
separation of D=20
    and C&nbsp;packets inside FE while using&nbsp;only =
one&nbsp;stream(channel)=20
    to accross the </FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>physical link&nbsp;(GRMP DoS =
protection scheme)=20
    can also achieve all these goals (DoS protection, rate control, =
priority,=20
    </FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>security, reliability).&nbsp;We =
just&nbsp;ask=20
    that </FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>if we don't need =
</FONT><FONT face=3DArial=20
    size=3D2>to&nbsp;provide the&nbsp;two diffenrent&nbsp;channels in =
the physical=20
    link so</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;as to prevent DoS, are we =
still=20
    interested </FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>in giving the D =
packets=20
    </FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>a different transport=20
    reliability?</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT><FONT=20
    face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial=20
    size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
    size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><BR>3) Delay of D =
packets=20
    by&nbsp; delay of C packets.&nbsp;&nbsp; This sould not happen if =
your=20
    channels are<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; independent. And&nbsp; D =
packets=20
    may dictate what C packets get sent to the FE.&nbsp;=20
    The<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; problem might be related to the way =
your=20
    real-time processes are running the D and C =
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
    queues.&nbsp; You can play with thread priorities,..etc to resolve=20
    this.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
  <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
  style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Re: Yes, this is because of the =
congestion of=20
    queues of D packets and C packets, but the same will</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>also happen to separated D/C =
channels if they=20
    use the same physical link. Only the difference is the =
latter</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>may use OS kernel to schedule while =
the former=20
    uses ForCES protocol defined scheduler. </FONT><BR><BR>4) C/D =
separation=20
    resource cost:&nbsp;&nbsp; This is not as expensive as the cost paid =
when=20
    DOS<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; attacks occur.&nbsp; Besides, =
hardware=20
    resources are getting cheaper by the day,..and =
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
    processors are getting faster too.&nbsp; </DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>Re:&nbsp; again, by separating the D packets and C packets =
inside an=20
    FE, we can also prevent DoS efficiently. </DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT><BR>General =
comments. May=20
    be a way to go forward is to make it a SHOULD to =
implement<BR>&nbsp;(on=20
    seperate D/C channels) and leave the rest up to implementation,...I =
am not=20
    sure. Any comments?</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Re: I agree. What we propose is =
only to=20
    limit&nbsp;such a&nbsp;separation inside an FE instead of expanding =
it=20
    to&nbsp;the FE-CE link.</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT><FONT=20
    face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial=20
    size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
    size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial=20
    size=3D2></FONT><BR>Regards,<BR>Alex.21<BR><BR>Wang,Weiming =
wrote:<BR></DIV>
    <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"=20
    cite=3D"mid030d01c3fb7a$3528e400$845c21d2@Necom.hzic.edu.cn"><PRE =
wrap=3D"">Hi David,

Regarding the proposed basic principles, we (GRMP group) have some =
comments for  principles item 7&amp;8:
--------
7.      The ForCES protocol should support separate channels for Control =
and Data messages. The data=20
channel carries the routing/control protocol packets such as RIP, OSPF =
packets, between the CEs and FEs.=20
These packets are unique in most cases for a particular CE:FE pair and =
hence the data channel will use unicast=20
connections between the CEs and FEs. Also, the data channel does not =
have to be strictly reliable but does=20
need to provide flow/congestion control to protect against DoS attacks.

8.      The control channel must provide strict reliability =
(non-corruption, no loss, no reordering, timeliness) at the=20
transport level in accordance with the RFC 3654. In addition, ForCES =
protocol level responses/acknowledgements=20
are also needed from FE to CE to learn the results of =
configuration/control messages.
--------

First of all, we agree that to distinguish ForCES messages into control =
messages and data (redirect) messages are=20
essential for DoS protection scheme. Then, we argue that to separate the =
two kinds of messages into two different=20
transport channels with the data channel being appointed to a lower =
reliable level (such as UDP, compared with TCP)=20
may not be a good enough scheme for such purpose. The reasons are:

1. The data (redirect) ForCES messages seem have no reason to be =
appointed to a lower reliability, compared with=20
control channel messages.  We may needn't  to argue how important some =
of the redirected messages are for a=20
router (an NE), we just argue that  the reliability for ForCES data =
message transport should not be lower than that of the=20
connection over which the routing/control protocol packets  are =
transported. An example is the BGP protocol messages,=20
which have already been assigned to use TCP instead of UDP for the =
transports. We think the communication between CEs=20
and FEs (which is inside an NE) has no reason to greatly induce extra =
performance loss other than that from outside of=20
an NE for such routing protocol packets. By saying this, we don't mean =
all ForCES messages should not be loaded over UDP,=20
we just propose that it's may be too early to distinguish the redirect =
messages from other configuration messages inside ForCES=20
protocol specifications.

<BR><SPAN class=3D479502213-27022004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>[&lt;Ramg&gt;]&nbsp; As you pointed out exactly that BGP runs =
on TCP and provides its own reliability mechanism and so as other =
routing protocols have some form of inbuit mechanism and this is the =
reason</FONT></SPAN></PRE><PRE wrap=3D""><SPAN =
class=3D479502213-27022004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>we need not address in our ForCES protocol for data channel. =
Some traffic we don't need retransmission and reliability in D channel =
as it is handled by those protocols themselves.</FONT></SPAN><FONT =
face=3DArial><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D479502213-27022004>&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN =
class=3D479502213-27022004>&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT><BR><SPAN =
class=3D479502213-27022004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>&lt;RamG&gt;</FONT></SPAN></PRE><PRE wrap=3D""><SPAN =
class=3D479502213-27022004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
class=3D479502213-27022004>&nbsp;</SPAN>2. Generally speaking, separated =
C channel and D channel are still put over the same physical link (or =
else there is almost </PRE>
      <DIV>no need to protect DoS).  Therefore,  such a separation =
itself does=20
      not provide any DoS protection, instead, the protection is =
obtained by the=20
      rate control of D channel. We argue that  such a rate control =
actually can=20
      be obtained at the ForCES message layer instead of at the message=20
      transport layer. Some of our experiment results (which will be =
presented=20
      at the IETF meeting) have shown this feasibility.  Moreover, a =
separation=20
      at transport layer surely will complicate the CE-FE association =
and the=20
      followed message transport management. <BR><SPAN=20
      class=3D479502213-27022004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
      size=3D2>[&lt;Ramg&gt;]&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
      <DIV><SPAN class=3D479502213-27022004></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
      <DIV><SPAN class=3D479502213-27022004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
      size=3D2>I think everyone agrees this and understand this point. =
It is the=20
      CE which uses ForCES Message to convey the ratelimting value for C =
and D=20
      channel FE. It is the FE which forwards the packet to the CE and =
hence one=20
      FE need to know the parameter. Here the rate limiter values could =
be=20
      different in either direction..</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
      <DIV><SPAN class=3D479502213-27022004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
      size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
      <DIV><SPAN class=3D479502213-27022004>&nbsp;</SPAN>3.  We have =
also noticed=20
      a phenomenon during our experiments, which we may need to pay some =

      attention. I recalled when FACT first presented the D and C =
channel idea, =20
      there was a question worrying about the asyncronization between D =
and C=20
      channel.  Our experiments have shown that,  although there is no =
strict=20
      asyncronization problem between D and C channel owing to the data=20
      independence, there is a possibility that D channel packets may be =

      seriously delayed and even blocked owing to the busy traffic at C =
channel=20
      if D packets are separated from C packets. The busy traffic at C =
channel=20
      may happen when CE queries FE for something and FE dumps quite a =
huge=20
      number of messages (such as routing table items.)  Such a delay or =

      blocking may be counted in seconds, resulted in very harmful =
effect on the=20
      users of redirected packets.  As a result, we propose that a =
moderate rate=20
      control for C channel be also necessary. <BR><SPAN=20
      class=3D479502213-27022004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
      size=3D2>[&lt;Ramg&gt;]&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
      <DIV><SPAN class=3D479502213-27022004></SPAN><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
      size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
      <DIV><SPAN class=3D479502213-27022004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
      size=3D2>Please see the previous reply. The dumping of huge data =
confirms to=20
      the rate limiter value which was done and acks are being presented =
in FACT=20
      layer to ensure that message delivery and message execution. We =
have=20
      implemented this and it is running fine.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
      <DIV><SPAN class=3D479502213-27022004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
      size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
      <DIV><SPAN class=3D479502213-27022004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
      size=3D2>&lt;Ramg&gt;</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
      <DIV><SPAN class=3D479502213-27022004>&nbsp;</SPAN>4. To =
explicitly separate=20
      D and C channel also consumes more resources, because a resources =
for D=20
      channel have to be reserved. Instead, by separating D and C =
packets at the=20
      ForCES protocol layer and uniting them again at the transport =
layer, we=20
      may able to make a scheduling discipline by which the D and C =
packets can=20
      share the link resources effectively. We are trying to construct =
such a=20
      scheduling scheme, and it seems quite practical to so.To =
summarize, we=20
      propose that the 7&amp;8 basic principles only mention the =
separation of D=20
      and C packets for DoS protection currently, leaving some space for =
further=20
      discussions. The discussions may be like: 1. Should such a =
separation be=20
      put at the ForCES message layer or at the transport layer?  Which =
is=20
      better?2. Whether united scheduling for D and C packets are =
necessary?3.=20
      Should D packets be distinguished from C packets for its transport =

      reliability in ForCES protocol so as to assign a different =
transport=20
      means?Regarding the protocol merge proposal, we'd like to present =
some of=20
      our thinking in a few words:Firstly, as a new comer to IETF work, =
the GRMP=20
      group surely welcome such a merge proposal, sincerely hoping an =
all merits=20
      in one draft can be achieved for ForCES WG, and at the same time =
hoping to=20
      learn from other candidate authors, whom we have already been =
respecting=20
      to for their rich knowledge and excellent contributions to IETF =
and other=20
      fields. Secondly, we believe that the interaction among the =
candidate=20
      drafts are very helpful for the final ForCES protocol. Actually =
there=20
      already has been such interaction since the ForCES protocol =
evaluation=20
      process began, which has already made individual candidate drafts =
ever=20
      improved.  Thirdly, to make the process successful, we believe =
that a nice=20
      atmosphere is very important. In such an atmosphere, everyone has =
a=20
      peaceable state of mind, precisely speaking, a mind ready to give =
up and=20
      accept, and individuals' work can be fully respected. Our past =
experience=20
      has made us believe that it is almost impossible to reach a =
compromise=20
      among group members where some think of their work much =
outstanding to=20
      others. Lastly, as Jamal has mentioned, some ground rules is =
important so=20
      as to eliminate conflicts whenever there are. Regarding the merge =
action=20
      way, we agree candidates to propose their "can't live without" =
first.=20
      Along with this, we also suggest candidates propose "what they =
think the=20
      contents in their drafts are useful for final protocol and hope =
able to be=20
      put in it". This useful contents are a little different from the =
"features=20
      of the drafts", because we suppose the contents proposed should be =

      conservatively considered by presenters to be able to merge with =
other=20
      contents. Thank you.Beset Regards,Weiming Wang<BR><SPAN=20
      class=3D479502213-27022004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
      size=3D2>[&lt;Ramg&gt;]&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
      <DIV><SPAN class=3D479502213-27022004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
      size=3D2>If&nbsp;we make separation on transport layer&nbsp;then =
we have few=20
      transport choices&nbsp;and many not be widely deployable. It is =
upto the=20
      group to decide. If we deal with the ForCES messaging layer then =
it=20
      has&nbsp;this messaging can be applied to other non-ip transport=20
      too.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
      <DIV><SPAN class=3D479502213-27022004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
      size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
      <DIV><SPAN class=3D479502213-27022004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
      size=3D2>&lt;Ramg&gt;</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
      <DIV><SPAN class=3D479502213-27022004>&nbsp;<FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
      size=3D2>End of comment </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
      <DIV><SPAN class=3D479502213-27022004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
      size=3D2>Regards</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
      <DIV><SPAN class=3D479502213-27022004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
      =
size=3D2>Ramg</FONT></SPAN></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><=
/BODY></HTML>

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References: <DC504E9C3384054C8506D3E6BB0124600138813C@bsebe001.americas.nokia.com>
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Subject: Re: [Forces-protocol] Fw: ForCES Protocol Analysis Design Team Administrivia
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Subject: RE: [Forces-protocol] Fw: ForCES Protocol Analysis Design Team Administrivia
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Hello Weiming,
comments are inline

-----Original Message-----
From: ext Wang,Weiming [mailto:wmwang@mail.hzic.edu.cn]
Sent: Friday, February 27, 2004 8:59 AM
To: forces-protocol@ietf.org
Cc: Gopal Ram (Nokia-NRC/Boston)
Subject: Re: [Forces-protocol] Fw: ForCES Protocol Analysis Design Team =
Administrivia


Hi Ram,=20
=20
Glad to see your comments and please find the reply inlines.=20
=20
Best regards,
Weiming

----- Original Message -----=20
From: ram.gopal@nokia.com=20
To: wmwang@mail.hzic.edu.cn ; forces-protocol@ietf.org=20
Sent: Friday, February 27, 2004 9:35 PM
Subject: RE: [Forces-protocol] Fw: ForCES Protocol Analysis Design Team =
Administrivia

Hello Weiming,
=20
Alex missed out my name in his first email. See my comments inside  the =
tag <Ramg> =20

-----Original Message-----
From: forces-protocol-admin@ietf.org =
[mailto:forces-protocol-admin@ietf.org]On Behalf Of ext Wang,Weiming
Sent: Friday, February 27, 2004 7:56 AM
To: forces-protocol@ietf.org
Subject: [Forces-protocol] Fw: ForCES Protocol Analysis Design Team =
Administrivia


=20
Hi Alex,
=20
Thank you for your comments. Pls see the inline reply.
=20
Best regards,
Weiming

----- Original Message -----=20
From: Alex  <mailto:alex.audu@alcatel.com> Audu=20
To: Wang,Weiming <mailto:wmwang@mail.hzic.edu.cn> =20
Cc: avri <mailto:avri@psg.com>  ; Chaoping Wu =
<mailto:chaopingwu@comcast.net>  ; Deleganes Ellen M =
<mailto:ellen.m.deleganes@intel.com>  ; Dong, Ligang =
<mailto:donglg@mail.hzic.edu.cn>  ; Guo, Yunfei <mailto:gyf@htrdc.com>  =
; Jamal Hadi Salim <mailto:hadi@znyx.com>  ; Jeff Pickering =
<mailto:jpickering@creeksidenet.com>  ; Jon  =
<mailto:jon.maloy@ericsson.com> Maloy ; Khosravi, Hormuzd M =
<mailto:hormuzd.m.khosravi@intel.com>  ; Patrick  =
<mailto:dro@zurich.ibm.com> Droz ; Putzolu David =
<mailto:david.putzolu@intel.com>  ; Robert  <mailto:rha@zurich.ibm.com> =
Haas ; Spyros Denazis <mailto:spyros.denazis@hitachi-eu.com>  ; Steve  =
<mailto:slblake@torrentnet.com> Blake ; Wang, Guangming =
<mailto:gmwang@mail.hzic.edu.cn> =20
Sent: Friday, February 27, 2004 2:06 AM
Subject: Re: ForCES Protocol Analysis Design Team Administrivia


Hello Weiming,

I'll address some of the issues you raised.

1) Seperate Data Redirect and Control channels/ relative importance of =
Control vs Redirect info
    It is easy to see that the redirect data can be manipulated by an =
outside source (External to=20
     the NE).  In the case of such a source being malicious, it is =
necessary to give priority to=20
     the control data to maintain integrity of the NE.

      You sighted BGP experience.  Indeed, the realization that it is =
safer to separate externally
       generated control data like redirect-data from internally =
generated control data grew out
       of  experience gleamed from past DOS attacks on BGP.

2)  C channel and D channel are on the same physical link.   For DOS =
survivability, you need=20
      to seperate then somehow. If you use SCTP, you can put them on =
separate streams on
       the same link. That will work.  But what will be best is a =
non-reliable congestion aware
      stream/link for  D-channel and a reliable stream/link for =
C-channel.
       Rate controlling is important. But if  you need to allow your C =
information to flow freely
       to adaptively effect counter-meassures if the NE is being DOS'd.

Re. 1&2:  I suppose a separation of D and C packets inside FE while =
using only one stream(channel) to accross the=20
physical link (GRMP DoS protection scheme) can also achieve all these =
goals (DoS protection, rate control, priority,=20
security, reliability). We just ask that if we don't need to provide the =
two diffenrent channels in the physical link so
 as to prevent DoS, are we still interested in giving the D packets a =
different transport reliability?

3) Delay of D packets by  delay of C packets.   This sould not happen if =
your channels are
     independent. And  D packets may dictate what C packets get sent to =
the FE.  The
     problem might be related to the way your real-time processes are =
running the D and C=20
     queues.  You can play with thread priorities,..etc to resolve this.

Re: Yes, this is because of the congestion of queues of D packets and C =
packets, but the same will
also happen to separated D/C channels if they use the same physical =
link. Only the difference is the latter
may use OS kernel to schedule while the former uses ForCES protocol =
defined scheduler.=20

4) C/D separation resource cost:   This is not as expensive as the cost =
paid when DOS
     attacks occur.  Besides, hardware resources are getting cheaper by =
the day,..and=20
     processors are getting faster too. =20
=20
Re:  again, by separating the D packets and C packets inside an FE, we =
can also prevent DoS efficiently.=20

General comments. May be a way to go forward is to make it a SHOULD to =
implement
 (on seperate D/C channels) and leave the rest up to implementation,...I =
am not sure. Any comments?
=20
Re: I agree. What we propose is only to limit such a separation inside =
an FE instead of expanding it to the FE-CE link.

Regards,
Alex.21

Wang,Weiming wrote:


Hi David,



Regarding the proposed basic principles, we (GRMP group) have some =
comments for  principles item 7&8:

--------

7.      The ForCES protocol should support separate channels for Control =
and Data messages. The data=20

channel carries the routing/control protocol packets such as RIP, OSPF =
packets, between the CEs and FEs.=20

These packets are unique in most cases for a particular CE:FE pair and =
hence the data channel will use unicast=20

connections between the CEs and FEs. Also, the data channel does not =
have to be strictly reliable but does=20

need to provide flow/congestion control to protect against DoS attacks.



8.      The control channel must provide strict reliability =
(non-corruption, no loss, no reordering, timeliness) at the=20

transport level in accordance with the RFC 3654. In addition, ForCES =
protocol level responses/acknowledgements=20

are also needed from FE to CE to learn the results of =
configuration/control messages.

--------



First of all, we agree that to distinguish ForCES messages into control =
messages and data (redirect) messages are=20

essential for DoS protection scheme. Then, we argue that to separate the =
two kinds of messages into two different=20

transport channels with the data channel being appointed to a lower =
reliable level (such as UDP, compared with TCP)=20

may not be a good enough scheme for such purpose. The reasons are:



1. The data (redirect) ForCES messages seem have no reason to be =
appointed to a lower reliability, compared with=20

control channel messages.  We may needn't  to argue how important some =
of the redirected messages are for a=20

router (an NE), we just argue that  the reliability for ForCES data =
message transport should not be lower than that of the=20

connection over which the routing/control protocol packets  are =
transported. An example is the BGP protocol messages,=20

which have already been assigned to use TCP instead of UDP for the =
transports. We think the communication between CEs=20

and FEs (which is inside an NE) has no reason to greatly induce extra =
performance loss other than that from outside of=20

an NE for such routing protocol packets. By saying this, we don't mean =
all ForCES messages should not be loaded over UDP,=20

we just propose that it's may be too early to distinguish the redirect =
messages from other configuration messages inside ForCES=20

protocol specifications.




[<Ramg>]  As you pointed out exactly that BGP runs on TCP and provides =
its own reliability mechanism and so as other routing protocols have =
some form of inbuit mechanism and this is the reason
we need not address in our ForCES protocol for data channel. Some =
traffic we don't need retransmission and reliability in D channel as it =
is handled by those protocols themselves. =20
<RamG>
WangRe: as I have replied to Alex, I just suppose if we don't have to =
separate the D/C channels in the physical link (instead only separate it =
inside an FE), are we still interested in
appointing to D packets different transport reliabilities?=20
=20
[<Ramg>]=20
Yes.
<RamG>
   2. Generally speaking, separated C channel and D channel are still =
put over the same physical link (or else there is almost=20
no need to protect DoS). Therefore, such a separation itself does not =
provide any DoS protection, instead, the protection is obtained by the =
rate control of D channel. We argue that such a rate control actually =
can be obtained at the ForCES message layer instead of at the message =
transport layer. Some of our experiment results (which will be presented =
at the IETF meeting) have shown this feasibility. Moreover, a separation =
at transport layer surely will complicate the CE-FE association and the =
followed message transport management.=20
[<Ramg>]=20
=20
I think everyone agrees this and understand this point. It is the CE =
which uses ForCES Message to convey the ratelimting value for C and D =
channel FE. It is the FE which forwards the packet to the CE and hence =
one FE need to know the parameter. Here the rate limiter values could be =
different in either direction..
=20
WangRe: yes, I totally agree.
=20
 3. We have also noticed a phenomenon during our experiments, which we =
may need to pay some attention. I recalled when FACT first presented the =
D and C channel idea, there was a question worrying about the =
asyncronization between D and C channel. Our experiments have shown =
that, although there is no strict asyncronization problem between D and =
C channel owing to the data independence, there is a possibility that D =
channel packets may be seriously delayed and even blocked owing to the =
busy traffic at C channel if D packets are separated from C packets. The =
busy traffic at C channel may happen when CE queries FE for something =
and FE dumps quite a huge number of messages (such as routing table =
items.) Such a delay or blocking may be counted in seconds, resulted in =
very harmful effect on the users of redirected packets. As a result, we =
propose that a moderate rate control for C channel be also necessary.=20
[<Ramg>]=20
=20
Please see the previous reply. The dumping of huge data confirms to the =
rate limiter value which was done and acks are being presented in FACT =
layer to ensure that message delivery and message execution. We have =
implemented this and it is running fine.
=20
<Ramg>
=20
WangRe: we just want to point out this D pakcets blocking facts for more =
attention. I'm glad to know that FACT also use some rating mechanisim =
for C channels as well as D chennels, because GRMP also be in this way.=20
=20
 4. To explicitly separate D and C channel also consumes more resources, =
because a resources for D channel have to be reserved. Instead, by =
separating D and C packets at the ForCES protocol layer and uniting them =
again at the transport layer, we may able to make a scheduling =
discipline by which the D and C packets can share the link resources =
effectively. We are trying to construct such a scheduling scheme, and it =
seems quite practical to so.To summarize, we propose that the 7&8 basic =
principles only mention the separation of D and C packets for DoS =
protection currently, leaving some space for further discussions. The =
discussions may be like: 1. Should such a separation be put at the =
ForCES message layer or at the transport layer? Which is better?2. =
Whether united scheduling for D and C packets are necessary?3. Should D =
packets be distinguished from C packets for its transport reliability in =
ForCES protocol so as to assign a different transport means?Regarding =
the protocol merge proposal, we'd like to present some of our thinking =
in a few words:Firstly, as a new comer to IETF work, the GRMP group =
surely welcome such a merge proposal, sincerely hoping an all merits in =
one draft can be achieved for ForCES WG, and at the same time hoping to =
learn from other candidate authors, whom we have already been respecting =
to for their rich knowledge and excellent contributions to IETF and =
other fields. Secondly, we believe that the interaction among the =
candidate drafts are very helpful for the final ForCES protocol. =
Actually there already has been such interaction since the ForCES =
protocol evaluation process began, which has already made individual =
candidate drafts ever improved. Thirdly, to make the process successful, =
we believe that a nice atmosphere is very important. In such an =
atmosphere, everyone has a peaceable state of mind, precisely speaking, =
a mind ready to give up and accept, and individuals' work can be fully =
respected. Our past experience has made us believe that it is almost =
impossible to reach a compromise among group members where some think of =
their work much outstanding to others. Lastly, as Jamal has mentioned, =
some ground rules is important so as to eliminate conflicts whenever =
there are. Regarding the merge action way, we agree candidates to =
propose their "can't live without" first. Along with this, we also =
suggest candidates propose "what they think the contents in their drafts =
are useful for final protocol and hope able to be put in it". This =
useful contents are a little different from the "features of the =
drafts", because we suppose the contents proposed should be =
conservatively considered by presenters to be able to merge with other =
contents. Thank you.Beset Regards,Weiming Wang
[<Ramg>]=20
If we make separation on transport layer then we have few transport =
choices and many not be widely deployable. It is upto the group to =
decide. If we deal with the ForCES messaging layer then it has this =
messaging can be applied to other non-ip transport too.
=20
WangRe: yes, I totally agree. What we propose is exactly to limit the =
separation of  the C/D packets into ForCES C/D messages instead of =
expanding such a separation into transport layer (over physical link). =
I'm not sure if I'v missed your meaning or not?=20
=20
<RamG>
If this is the case then we are in same understanding. Alex has given an =
illustration - how one can do with SCTP.
<RamG>
=20
=20
<Ramg>
 End of comment=20
Regards
Ramg


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<DIV><SPAN class=3D622080814-27022004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Hello=20
Weiming,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D622080814-27022004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>comments are inline</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
  size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> ext Wang,Weiming=20
  [mailto:wmwang@mail.hzic.edu.cn]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, February 27, =
2004=20
  8:59 AM<BR><B>To:</B> forces-protocol@ietf.org<BR><B>Cc:</B> Gopal Ram =

  (Nokia-NRC/Boston)<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Forces-protocol] Fw: ForCES =

  Protocol Analysis Design Team Administrivia<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hi Ram, </FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Glad to see&nbsp;your comments and=20
  please&nbsp;find the reply inlines. </FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Best regards,</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Weiming</FONT></DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
  style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
    <DIV=20
    style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
    <A title=3Dram.gopal@nokia.com=20
    href=3D"mailto:ram.gopal@nokia.com">ram.gopal@nokia.com</A> </DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dwmwang@mail.hzic.edu.cn=20
    href=3D"mailto:wmwang@mail.hzic.edu.cn">wmwang@mail.hzic.edu.cn</A> =
; <A=20
    title=3Dforces-protocol@ietf.org=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:forces-protocol@ietf.org">forces-protocol@ietf.org</A> =
</DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, February 27, =
2004 9:35=20
    PM</DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: =
[Forces-protocol] Fw:=20
    ForCES Protocol Analysis Design Team Administrivia</DIV>
    <DIV><BR></DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN class=3D479502213-27022004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
    size=3D2>Hello Weiming,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN class=3D479502213-27022004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
    size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><SPAN class=3D479502213-27022004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
    size=3D2>Alex missed out my name in his first email. See my comments =

    inside&nbsp; the tag &lt;Ramg&gt;&nbsp; </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
    <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
    style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff =
2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
      <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
      size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> <A=20
      =
href=3D"mailto:forces-protocol-admin@ietf.org">forces-protocol-admin@ietf=
.org</A>=20
      [mailto:forces-protocol-admin@ietf.org]<B>On Behalf Of </B>ext=20
      Wang,Weiming<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, February 27, 2004 7:56=20
      AM<BR><B>To:</B> <A=20
      =
href=3D"mailto:forces-protocol@ietf.org">forces-protocol@ietf.org</A><BR>=
<B>Subject:</B>=20
      [Forces-protocol] Fw: ForCES Protocol Analysis Design Team=20
      Administrivia<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hi Alex,</FONT></DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thank you for your comments. Pls =
see the=20
      inline reply.</FONT></DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Best regards,</FONT></DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Weiming</FONT></DIV>
      <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
      style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
        <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- =
</DIV>
        <DIV=20
        style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
        <A title=3Dalex.audu@alcatel.com =
href=3D"mailto:alex.audu@alcatel.com">Alex=20
        Audu</A> </DIV>
        <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
        title=3Dwmwang@mail.hzic.edu.cn=20
        href=3D"mailto:wmwang@mail.hzic.edu.cn">Wang,Weiming</A> </DIV>
        <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A =
title=3Davri@psg.com=20
        href=3D"mailto:avri@psg.com">avri</A> ; <A =
title=3Dchaopingwu@comcast.net=20
        href=3D"mailto:chaopingwu@comcast.net">Chaoping Wu</A> ; <A=20
        title=3Dellen.m.deleganes@intel.com=20
        href=3D"mailto:ellen.m.deleganes@intel.com">Deleganes Ellen =
M</A> ; <A=20
        title=3Ddonglg@mail.hzic.edu.cn=20
        href=3D"mailto:donglg@mail.hzic.edu.cn">Dong, Ligang</A> ; <A=20
        title=3Dgyf@htrdc.com href=3D"mailto:gyf@htrdc.com">Guo, =
Yunfei</A> ; <A=20
        title=3Dhadi@znyx.com href=3D"mailto:hadi@znyx.com">Jamal Hadi =
Salim</A> ;=20
        <A title=3Djpickering@creeksidenet.com=20
        href=3D"mailto:jpickering@creeksidenet.com">Jeff Pickering</A> ; =
<A=20
        title=3Djon.maloy@ericsson.com =
href=3D"mailto:jon.maloy@ericsson.com">Jon=20
        Maloy</A> ; <A title=3Dhormuzd.m.khosravi@intel.com=20
        href=3D"mailto:hormuzd.m.khosravi@intel.com">Khosravi, Hormuzd =
M</A> ; <A=20
        title=3Ddro@zurich.ibm.com =
href=3D"mailto:dro@zurich.ibm.com">Patrick=20
        Droz</A> ; <A title=3Ddavid.putzolu@intel.com=20
        href=3D"mailto:david.putzolu@intel.com">Putzolu David</A> ; <A=20
        title=3Drha@zurich.ibm.com =
href=3D"mailto:rha@zurich.ibm.com">Robert=20
        Haas</A> ; <A title=3Dspyros.denazis@hitachi-eu.com=20
        href=3D"mailto:spyros.denazis@hitachi-eu.com">Spyros Denazis</A> =
; <A=20
        title=3Dslblake@torrentnet.com =
href=3D"mailto:slblake@torrentnet.com">Steve=20
        Blake</A> ; <A title=3Dgmwang@mail.hzic.edu.cn=20
        href=3D"mailto:gmwang@mail.hzic.edu.cn">Wang, Guangming</A> =
</DIV>
        <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, February =
27, 2004=20
        2:06 AM</DIV>
        <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: ForCES =
Protocol=20
        Analysis Design Team Administrivia</DIV>
        <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT><FONT=20
        face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><BR></DIV>
        <DIV>Hello Weiming,<BR><BR>I'll address some of the issues you=20
        raised.<BR><BR>1) Seperate Data Redirect and Control channels/ =
relative=20
        importance of Control vs Redirect info<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; It =
is easy=20
        to see that the redirect data can be manipulated by an outside =
source=20
        (External to <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the NE).&nbsp; In the =
case of=20
        such a source being malicious, it is necessary to give priority =
to=20
        <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the control data to maintain =
integrity of=20
        the NE.<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; You sighted BGP=20
        experience.&nbsp; Indeed, the realization that it is safer to =
separate=20
        externally<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; generated =
control=20
        data like redirect-data from internally generated control data =
grew=20
        out<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; of&nbsp; experience =
gleamed=20
        from past DOS attacks on BGP.<BR><BR>2)&nbsp; C channel and D =
channel=20
        are on the same physical link.&nbsp;&nbsp; For DOS =
survivability, you=20
        need <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; to seperate then =
somehow. If you=20
        use SCTP, you can put them on separate streams=20
        on<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the same link. That =
will=20
        work.&nbsp; But what will be best is a non-reliable congestion=20
        aware<BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; stream/link for&nbsp; D-channel =
and a=20
        reliable stream/link for=20
        C-channel.<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Rate =
controlling is=20
        important. But if&nbsp; you need to allow your C information to =
flow=20
        freely<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; to adaptively =
effect=20
        counter-meassures if the NE is being DOS'd.<BR></DIV>
        <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Re. 1&amp;2:&nbsp; I suppose a =
separation=20
        of D and C&nbsp;packets inside FE while using&nbsp;only=20
        one&nbsp;stream(channel) to accross the </FONT></DIV>
        <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>physical link&nbsp;(GRMP DoS =
protection=20
        scheme) can also achieve all these goals (DoS protection, rate =
control,=20
        priority, </FONT></DIV>
        <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>security, reliability).&nbsp;We =

        just&nbsp;ask that </FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>if we =
don't need=20
        </FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>to&nbsp;provide the&nbsp;two=20
        diffenrent&nbsp;channels in the physical link so</FONT></DIV>
        <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;as to prevent DoS, are we =
still=20
        interested </FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>in giving the D =
packets=20
        </FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>a different transport=20
        reliability?</FONT></DIV>
        <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT><FONT=20
        face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial=20
        size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
        size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><BR>3) Delay =
of D packets=20
        by&nbsp; delay of C packets.&nbsp;&nbsp; This sould not happen =
if your=20
        channels are<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; independent. And&nbsp; =
D=20
        packets may dictate what C packets get sent to the FE.&nbsp;=20
        The<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; problem might be related to the =
way your=20
        real-time processes are running the D and C =
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
        queues.&nbsp; You can play with thread priorities,..etc to =
resolve=20
        this.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
      <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
      style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
        <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Re: Yes, this is because of the =
congestion=20
        of queues of D packets and C packets, but the same =
will</FONT></DIV>
        <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>also happen to separated D/C =
channels if=20
        they use the same physical link. Only the difference is the=20
        latter</FONT></DIV>
        <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>may use OS kernel to schedule =
while the=20
        former uses ForCES protocol defined scheduler. </FONT><BR><BR>4) =
C/D=20
        separation resource cost:&nbsp;&nbsp; This is not as expensive =
as the=20
        cost paid when DOS<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; attacks =
occur.&nbsp;=20
        Besides, hardware resources are getting cheaper by the day,..and =

        <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; processors are getting faster =
too.&nbsp;=20
        </DIV>
        <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
        <DIV>Re:&nbsp; again, by separating the D packets and C packets =
inside=20
        an FE, we can also prevent DoS efficiently. </DIV>
        <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT><BR>General comments.=20
        May be a way to go forward is to make it a SHOULD to=20
        implement<BR>&nbsp;(on seperate D/C channels) and leave the rest =
up to=20
        implementation,...I am not sure. Any comments?</DIV>
        <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
        <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Re: I agree. What we propose is =
only to=20
        limit&nbsp;such a&nbsp;separation inside an FE instead of =
expanding it=20
        to&nbsp;the FE-CE link.</FONT></DIV>
        <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT><FONT=20
        face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial=20
        size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
        size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial=20
        size=3D2></FONT><BR>Regards,<BR>Alex.21<BR><BR>Wang,Weiming=20
        wrote:<BR></DIV>
        <BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite"=20
        =
cite=3D"mid030d01c3fb7a$3528e400$845c21d2@Necom.hzic.edu.cn"><PRE =
wrap=3D"">Hi David,

Regarding the proposed basic principles, we (GRMP group) have some =
comments for  principles item 7&amp;8:
--------
7.      The ForCES protocol should support separate channels for Control =
and Data messages. The data=20
channel carries the routing/control protocol packets such as RIP, OSPF =
packets, between the CEs and FEs.=20
These packets are unique in most cases for a particular CE:FE pair and =
hence the data channel will use unicast=20
connections between the CEs and FEs. Also, the data channel does not =
have to be strictly reliable but does=20
need to provide flow/congestion control to protect against DoS attacks.

8.      The control channel must provide strict reliability =
(non-corruption, no loss, no reordering, timeliness) at the=20
transport level in accordance with the RFC 3654. In addition, ForCES =
protocol level responses/acknowledgements=20
are also needed from FE to CE to learn the results of =
configuration/control messages.
--------

First of all, we agree that to distinguish ForCES messages into control =
messages and data (redirect) messages are=20
essential for DoS protection scheme. Then, we argue that to separate the =
two kinds of messages into two different=20
transport channels with the data channel being appointed to a lower =
reliable level (such as UDP, compared with TCP)=20
may not be a good enough scheme for such purpose. The reasons are:

1. The data (redirect) ForCES messages seem have no reason to be =
appointed to a lower reliability, compared with=20
control channel messages.  We may needn't  to argue how important some =
of the redirected messages are for a=20
router (an NE), we just argue that  the reliability for ForCES data =
message transport should not be lower than that of the=20
connection over which the routing/control protocol packets  are =
transported. An example is the BGP protocol messages,=20
which have already been assigned to use TCP instead of UDP for the =
transports. We think the communication between CEs=20
and FEs (which is inside an NE) has no reason to greatly induce extra =
performance loss other than that from outside of=20
an NE for such routing protocol packets. By saying this, we don't mean =
all ForCES messages should not be loaded over UDP,=20
we just propose that it's may be too early to distinguish the redirect =
messages from other configuration messages inside ForCES=20
protocol specifications.

<BR><SPAN class=3D479502213-27022004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>[&lt;Ramg&gt;]&nbsp; As you pointed out exactly that BGP runs =
on TCP and provides its own reliability mechanism and so as other =
routing protocols have some form of inbuit mechanism and this is the =
reason</FONT></SPAN></PRE><PRE wrap=3D""><SPAN =
class=3D479502213-27022004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>we need not address in our ForCES protocol for data channel. =
Some traffic we don't need retransmission and reliability in D channel =
as it is handled by those protocols themselves.</FONT></SPAN><FONT =
face=3DArial><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D479502213-27022004>&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN =
class=3D479502213-27022004>&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT><BR><SPAN =
class=3D479502213-27022004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>&lt;RamG&gt;</FONT></SPAN></PRE><PRE wrap=3D""><SPAN =
class=3D479502213-27022004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>WangRe: as I have replied to Alex, I just suppose if we don't =
have to separate the D/C channels in the physical link (instead only =
separate it inside an FE), are we still interested =
in</FONT></SPAN></PRE><PRE wrap=3D""><SPAN =
class=3D479502213-27022004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>appointing to D packets different transport reliabilities? =
</FONT></SPAN></PRE><PRE wrap=3D""><SPAN =
class=3D479502213-27022004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>&nbsp;<BR><SPAN =
class=3D622080814-27022004>[&lt;Ramg&gt;]&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></PRE=
><PRE wrap=3D""><SPAN class=3D479502213-27022004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D622080814-27022004>Yes.</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></PRE><PRE =
wrap=3D""><SPAN class=3D479502213-27022004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D622080814-27022004>&lt;RamG&gt;</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></PRE><PRE =
wrap=3D""><SPAN class=3D479502213-27022004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D622080814-27022004>&nbsp;</SPAN>&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN><SPAN =
class=3D479502213-27022004>&nbsp;</SPAN>2. Generally speaking, separated =
C channel and D channel are still put over the same physical link (or =
else there is almost </PRE>
          <DIV>no need to protect DoS). Therefore, such a separation =
itself does=20
          not provide any DoS protection, instead, the protection is =
obtained by=20
          the rate control of D channel. We argue that such a rate =
control=20
          actually can be obtained at the ForCES message layer instead =
of at the=20
          message transport layer. Some of our experiment results (which =
will be=20
          presented at the IETF meeting) have shown this feasibility. =
Moreover,=20
          a separation at transport layer surely will complicate the =
CE-FE=20
          association and the followed message transport management. =
<BR><SPAN=20
          class=3D479502213-27022004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
          size=3D2>[&lt;Ramg&gt;]&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
          <DIV><SPAN class=3D479502213-27022004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
          size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
          <DIV><SPAN class=3D479502213-27022004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
          size=3D2>I think everyone agrees this and understand this =
point. It is=20
          the CE which uses ForCES Message to convey the ratelimting =
value for C=20
          and D channel FE. It is the FE which forwards the packet to =
the CE and=20
          hence one FE need to know the parameter. Here the rate limiter =
values=20
          could be different in either direction..</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
          <DIV><SPAN class=3D479502213-27022004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
          size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
          <DIV><SPAN class=3D479502213-27022004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
          size=3D2>WangRe: yes, I totally agree.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
          <DIV><SPAN class=3D479502213-27022004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
          size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
          <DIV><SPAN class=3D479502213-27022004>&nbsp;</SPAN>3. We have =
also=20
          noticed a phenomenon during our experiments, which we may need =
to pay=20
          some attention. I recalled when FACT first presented the D and =
C=20
          channel idea, there was a question worrying about the =
asyncronization=20
          between D and C channel. Our experiments have shown that, =
although=20
          there is no strict asyncronization problem between D and C =
channel=20
          owing to the data independence, there is a possibility that D =
channel=20
          packets may be seriously delayed and even blocked owing to the =
busy=20
          traffic at C channel if D packets are separated from C =
packets. The=20
          busy traffic at C channel may happen when CE queries FE for =
something=20
          and FE dumps quite a huge number of messages (such as routing =
table=20
          items.) Such a delay or blocking may be counted in seconds, =
resulted=20
          in very harmful effect on the users of redirected packets. As =
a=20
          result, we propose that a moderate rate control for C channel =
be also=20
          necessary. <BR><SPAN class=3D479502213-27022004><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
          color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>[&lt;Ramg&gt;]&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
          <DIV><SPAN class=3D479502213-27022004></SPAN><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
          color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
          <DIV><SPAN class=3D479502213-27022004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
          size=3D2>Please see the previous reply. The dumping of huge =
data=20
          confirms to the rate limiter value which was done and acks are =
being=20
          presented in FACT layer to ensure that message delivery and =
message=20
          execution. We have implemented this and it is running=20
          fine.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
          <DIV><SPAN class=3D479502213-27022004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
          size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
          <DIV><SPAN class=3D479502213-27022004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
          size=3D2>&lt;Ramg&gt;</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
          <DIV><SPAN class=3D479502213-27022004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
          size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
          <DIV><SPAN class=3D479502213-27022004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
          size=3D2>WangRe: we just want to point out this D pakcets =
blocking facts=20
          for more attention. I'm glad to know that FACT also use some =
rating=20
          mechanisim for C channels as well as D chennels, because GRMP=20
          also&nbsp;be in&nbsp;this way. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
          <DIV><SPAN class=3D479502213-27022004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
          size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
          <DIV><SPAN class=3D479502213-27022004>&nbsp;</SPAN>4. To =
explicitly=20
          separate D and C channel also consumes more resources, because =
a=20
          resources for D channel have to be reserved. Instead, by =
separating D=20
          and C packets at the ForCES protocol layer and uniting them =
again at=20
          the transport layer, we may able to make a scheduling =
discipline by=20
          which the D and C packets can share the link resources =
effectively. We=20
          are trying to construct such a scheduling scheme, and it seems =
quite=20
          practical to so.To summarize, we propose that the 7&amp;8 =
basic=20
          principles only mention the separation of D and C packets for =
DoS=20
          protection currently, leaving some space for further =
discussions. The=20
          discussions may be like: 1. Should such a separation be put at =
the=20
          ForCES message layer or at the transport layer? Which is =
better?2.=20
          Whether united scheduling for D and C packets are necessary?3. =
Should=20
          D packets be distinguished from C packets for its transport=20
          reliability in ForCES protocol so as to assign a different =
transport=20
          means?Regarding the protocol merge proposal, we'd like to =
present some=20
          of our thinking in a few words:Firstly, as a new comer to IETF =
work,=20
          the GRMP group surely welcome such a merge proposal, sincerely =
hoping=20
          an all merits in one draft can be achieved for ForCES WG, and =
at the=20
          same time hoping to learn from other candidate authors, whom =
we have=20
          already been respecting to for their rich knowledge and =
excellent=20
          contributions to IETF and other fields. Secondly, we believe =
that the=20
          interaction among the candidate drafts are very helpful for =
the final=20
          ForCES protocol. Actually there already has been such =
interaction=20
          since the ForCES protocol evaluation process began, which has =
already=20
          made individual candidate drafts ever improved. Thirdly, to =
make the=20
          process successful, we believe that a nice atmosphere is very=20
          important. In such an atmosphere, everyone has a peaceable =
state of=20
          mind, precisely speaking, a mind ready to give up and accept, =
and=20
          individuals' work can be fully respected. Our past experience =
has made=20
          us believe that it is almost impossible to reach a compromise =
among=20
          group members where some think of their work much outstanding =
to=20
          others. Lastly, as Jamal has mentioned, some ground rules is =
important=20
          so as to eliminate conflicts whenever there are. Regarding the =
merge=20
          action way, we agree candidates to propose their "can't live =
without"=20
          first. Along with this, we also suggest candidates propose =
"what they=20
          think the contents in their drafts are useful for final =
protocol and=20
          hope able to be put in it". This useful contents are a little=20
          different from the "features of the drafts", because we =
suppose the=20
          contents proposed should be conservatively considered by =
presenters to=20
          be able to merge with other contents. Thank you.Beset =
Regards,Weiming=20
          Wang<BR><SPAN class=3D479502213-27022004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
          size=3D2>[&lt;Ramg&gt;]&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
          <DIV><SPAN class=3D479502213-27022004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
          size=3D2>If&nbsp;we make separation on transport =
layer&nbsp;then we have=20
          few transport choices&nbsp;and many not be widely deployable. =
It is=20
          upto the group to decide. If we deal with the ForCES messaging =
layer=20
          then it has&nbsp;this messaging can be applied to other non-ip =

          transport too.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
          <DIV><SPAN class=3D479502213-27022004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
          size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
          <DIV><SPAN class=3D479502213-27022004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
          size=3D2>WangRe: yes, I totally agree. What we propose is =
exactly to=20
          limit the separation of &nbsp;the C/D packets into ForCES C/D =
messages=20
          instead of expanding such a separation into transport layer =
(over=20
          physical link). I'm not sure if I'v missed your meaning or =
not?=20
          </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
          <DIV><SPAN class=3D479502213-27022004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
          size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
          <DIV><SPAN class=3D479502213-27022004><SPAN=20
          class=3D622080814-27022004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
          size=3D2>&lt;RamG&gt;</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
          <DIV><SPAN class=3D479502213-27022004><SPAN=20
          class=3D622080814-27022004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>If this=20
          is the case then we are in same understanding. Alex has given =
an=20
          illustration - how one can do with =
SCTP.</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
          <DIV><SPAN class=3D479502213-27022004><SPAN=20
          class=3D622080814-27022004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
          size=3D2>&lt;RamG&gt;</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
          <DIV><SPAN class=3D479502213-27022004><SPAN=20
          class=3D622080814-27022004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
          size=3D2></FONT></SPAN></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
          <DIV><SPAN class=3D479502213-27022004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
          size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
          <DIV><SPAN class=3D479502213-27022004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
          size=3D2>&lt;Ramg&gt;</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
          <DIV><SPAN class=3D479502213-27022004>&nbsp;<FONT face=3DArial =

          color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>End of comment </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
          <DIV><SPAN class=3D479502213-27022004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
          size=3D2>Regards</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
          <DIV><SPAN class=3D479502213-27022004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
          =
size=3D2>Ramg</FONT></SPAN></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><=
/BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From: "Wang,Weiming" <wmwang@mail.hzic.edu.cn>
To: <forces-protocol@ietf.org>
Cc: "Ram Gopal" <ram.gopal@nokia.com>
Subject: Fw: [Forces-protocol] Fw: ForCES Protocol Analysis Design Team Administrivia
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Reply-To: <SPavel@chantrynetworks.com>
From: "Sandy Pavel" <spavel@chantrynetworks.com>
To: <forces-protocol@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: [Forces-protocol] Fw: ForCES Protocol Analysis Design Team Administrivia
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See comments below:
 
 4. To explicitly separate D and C channel also consumes more resources,
because a resources for D channel have to be reserved. Instead, by
separating D and C packets at the ForCES protocol layer and uniting them
again at the transport layer, we may able to make a scheduling
discipline by which the D and C packets can share the link resources
effectively. We are trying to construct such a scheduling scheme, and it
seems quite practical to so.To summarize, we propose that the 7&8 basic
principles only mention the separation of D and C packets for DoS
protection currently, leaving some space for further discussions. The
discussions may be like: 1. Should such a separation be put at the
ForCES message layer or at the transport layer? Which is better?2.
Whether united scheduling for D and C packets are necessary?3. Should D
packets be distinguished from C packets for its transport reliability in
ForCES protocol so as to assign a different transport means?
 
[[Sandy]] 
I am concerned about the separation of the D and C packets at the ForCES
protocol layer. I wonder if it is not too late at both ends of the
communication channel; by this I mean resources are allocated to
distinguish between the two but DoS might have already occurred or C
packets might have already been lost due to congestion on D. I believe
marking the two types and doing the separation at transport layer is
safer and uses existing mechanisms that do not overload the protocol.
Differentiated scheduling for D and C would be my preference. And yes,
there should be a differentiation between C and D for transport
reliability.   
[[Sandy]] 

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<body bgcolor=3Dwhite lang=3DEN-CA link=3Dblue vlink=3Dblue =
style=3D'tab-interval:36.0pt'>

<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>See comments =
below:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid black =
1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt;
margin-left:3.0pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>=


<blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue =
1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt;
margin-left:3.0pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>=


<blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid black =
1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 3.0pt;
margin-left:3.0pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>=


<blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:93.6pt'><font size=3D3 =
color=3Dblack
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;4. To =
explicitly
separate D and C channel also consumes more resources, because <span
class=3DGramE>a resources</span> for D channel have to be reserved. =
Instead, by
separating D and C packets at the ForCES protocol layer and uniting them =
again
at the transport layer, we may able to make a scheduling discipline by =
which
the D and C packets can share the link resources effectively. We are =
trying to
construct such a scheduling scheme, and it seems quite practical to =
so.To
summarize, we propose that the 7&amp;8 basic principles only mention the
separation of D and C packets for DoS protection currently, leaving some =
space
for further discussions. The discussions may be like: 1. Should such a
separation be put at the ForCES message layer or at the transport layer? =
Which
is better?2. Whether united scheduling for D and C packets are =
necessary?3.
Should D packets be distinguished from C packets for its transport =
reliability
in ForCES protocol so as to assign a different transport =
means?</span></font><font
color=3Dnavy><span style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b style=3D'mso-bidi-font-weight:normal'><i =
style=3D'mso-bidi-font-style:
normal'><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:navy;font-weight:bold;mso-bidi-font-weight:normal=
;
font-style:italic;mso-bidi-font-style:normal'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></f=
ont></i></b></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b style=3D'mso-bidi-font-weight:normal'><i =
style=3D'mso-bidi-font-style:
normal'><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:navy;font-weight:bold;mso-bidi-font-weight:normal=
;
font-style:italic;mso-bidi-font-style:normal'>[[</span></font></i></b><st=
1:City><st1:place><b
  style=3D'mso-bidi-font-weight:normal'><i =
style=3D'mso-bidi-font-style:normal'><font
  size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
  =
color:navy;font-weight:bold;mso-bidi-font-weight:normal;font-style:italic=
;
  =
mso-bidi-font-style:normal'>Sandy</span></font></i></b></st1:place></st1:=
City><b
style=3D'mso-bidi-font-weight:normal'><i =
style=3D'mso-bidi-font-style:normal'><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy;font-weight:bold;mso-bidi-font-weight:normal;font-style:italic=
;
mso-bidi-font-style:normal'>]] <o:p></o:p></span></font></i></b></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b style=3D'mso-bidi-font-weight:normal'><i =
style=3D'mso-bidi-font-style:
normal'><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:navy;font-weight:bold;mso-bidi-font-weight:normal=
;
font-style:italic;mso-bidi-font-style:normal'>I am concerned about the
separation of the D and C packets at the <span =
class=3DSpellE>ForCES</span>
protocol layer. I wonder if it is not too late at both ends of the
communication channel; by this I mean resources are allocated to =
distinguish
between the two but <span class=3DSpellE>DoS</span> might have already =
occurred or
C packets might have already been lost due to congestion on D. I believe
marking the two types and doing the separation at transport layer is =
safer and
uses existing mechanisms that do not overload the protocol. =
Differentiated scheduling
for D and C would be my preference. And yes, there should be a =
differentiation
between C and D for transport reliability. <span
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>&nbsp;</span><span
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></span></font></i></b>=
</p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b style=3D'mso-bidi-font-weight:normal'><i =
style=3D'mso-bidi-font-style:
normal'><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:navy;font-weight:bold;mso-bidi-font-weight:normal=
;
font-style:italic;mso-bidi-font-style:normal'>[[</span></font></i></b><st=
1:City><st1:place><b
  style=3D'mso-bidi-font-weight:normal'><i =
style=3D'mso-bidi-font-style:normal'><font
  size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
  =
color:navy;font-weight:bold;mso-bidi-font-weight:normal;font-style:italic=
;
  =
mso-bidi-font-style:normal'>Sandy</span></font></i></b></st1:place></st1:=
City><b
style=3D'mso-bidi-font-weight:normal'><i =
style=3D'mso-bidi-font-style:normal'><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy;font-weight:bold;mso-bidi-font-weight:normal;font-style:italic=
;
mso-bidi-font-style:normal'>]] <o:p></o:p></span></font></i></b></p>

</div>

</blockquote>

</blockquote>

</blockquote>

</blockquote>

</div>

</body>

</html>

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Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 16:57:32 -0600
From: Alex Audu <alex.audu@alcatel.com>
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Hello Weiming,

See my comments in-line.

Regards,
Alex.

Wang,Weiming wrote:

> Hi Alex,
>  
> Thank you for your comments. Pls see the inline reply.
>  
> Best regards,
> Weiming
>
>     ----- Original Message -----
>     From: Alex Audu <mailto:alex.audu@alcatel.com>
>     To: Wang,Weiming <mailto:wmwang@mail.hzic.edu.cn>
>     Cc: avri <mailto:avri@psg.com> ; Chaoping Wu
>     <mailto:chaopingwu@comcast.net> ; Deleganes Ellen M
>     <mailto:ellen.m.deleganes@intel.com> ; Dong, Ligang
>     <mailto:donglg@mail.hzic.edu.cn> ; Guo, Yunfei
>     <mailto:gyf@htrdc.com> ; Jamal Hadi Salim <mailto:hadi@znyx.com> ;
>     Jeff Pickering <mailto:jpickering@creeksidenet.com> ; Jon Maloy
>     <mailto:jon.maloy@ericsson.com> ; Khosravi, Hormuzd M
>     <mailto:hormuzd.m.khosravi@intel.com> ; Patrick Droz
>     <mailto:dro@zurich.ibm.com> ; Putzolu David
>     <mailto:david.putzolu@intel.com> ; Robert Haas
>     <mailto:rha@zurich.ibm.com> ; Spyros Denazis
>     <mailto:spyros.denazis@hitachi-eu.com> ; Steve Blake
>     <mailto:slblake@torrentnet.com> ; Wang, Guangming
>     <mailto:gmwang@mail.hzic.edu.cn>
>     Sent: Friday, February 27, 2004 2:06 AM
>     Subject: Re: ForCES Protocol Analysis Design Team Administrivia
>
>     Hello Weiming,
>
>     I'll address some of the issues you raised.
>
>     1) Seperate Data Redirect and Control channels/ relative
>     importance of Control vs Redirect info
>         It is easy to see that the redirect data can be manipulated by
>     an outside source (External to
>          the NE).  In the case of such a source being malicious, it is
>     necessary to give priority to
>          the control data to maintain integrity of the NE.
>
>           You sighted BGP experience.  Indeed, the realization that it
>     is safer to separate externally
>            generated control data like redirect-data from internally
>     generated control data grew out
>            of  experience gleamed from past DOS attacks on BGP.
>
>     2)  C channel and D channel are on the same physical link.   For
>     DOS survivability, you need
>           to seperate then somehow. If you use SCTP, you can put them
>     on separate streams on
>            the same link. That will work.  But what will be best is a
>     non-reliable congestion aware
>           stream/link for  D-channel and a reliable stream/link for
>     C-channel.
>            Rate controlling is important. But if  you need to allow
>     your C information to flow freely
>            to adaptively effect counter-meassures if the NE is being
>     DOS'd.
>     Re. 1&2:  I suppose a separation of D and C packets inside FE
>     while using only one stream(channel) to accross the
>     physical link (GRMP DoS protection scheme) can also achieve all
>     these goals (DoS protection, rate control, priority,
>     security, reliability). We just ask that if we don't need
>     to provide the two diffenrent channels in the physical link so
>      as to prevent DoS, are we still interested in giving the D
>     packets a different transport reliability?
>
[Alex] If I understand your question correctly, no,..this does not mean 
you are giving D
           packets a different transport reliability. But if you carry D 
and C data on the same
           channel, you have to be mindful not to let D data impact flow 
of C data.
           And frankly, I don't know what that means regarding your 
question.
 

>
>     3) Delay of D packets by  delay of C packets.   This sould not
>     happen if your channels are
>          independent. And  D packets may dictate what C packets get
>     sent to the FE.  The
>          problem might be related to the way your real-time processes
>     are running the D and C
>          queues.  You can play with thread priorities,..etc to resolve
>     this.
>
>     Re: Yes, this is because of the congestion of queues of D packets
>     and C packets, but the same will
>     also happen to separated D/C channels if they use the same
>     physical link. Only the difference is the latter
>     may use OS kernel to schedule while the former uses ForCES
>     protocol defined scheduler.
>
>     4) C/D separation resource cost:   This is not as expensive as the
>     cost paid when DOS
>          attacks occur.  Besides, hardware resources are getting
>     cheaper by the day,..and
>          processors are getting faster too. 
>      
>     Re:  again, by separating the D packets and C packets inside an
>     FE, we can also prevent DoS efficiently.
>
[Alex]  Say you are been DOS'd with a million D packets, and your C 
sends one message to
            help counter the problem.  Your packet separator will have 
to do a lot of work
             before getting to the C packets in the queue.  I don't 
think this makes for quick
            recovery from the attack.
            

>
>     General comments. May be a way to go forward is to make it a
>     SHOULD to implement
>      (on seperate D/C channels) and leave the rest up to
>     implementation,...I am not sure. Any comments?
>      
>     Re: I agree. What we propose is only to limit such a separation
>     inside an FE instead of expanding it to the FE-CE link.
>
>     Regards,
>     Alex.21
>
..[snip]..

--------------060101010508060709010501
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<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
  <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1">
  <title></title>
</head>
<body text="#000000" bgcolor="#ffffff">
Hello Weiming,<br>
<br>
See my comments in-line.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Alex.<br>
<br>
Wang,Weiming wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
 cite="mid018301c3fd2f$faa6c6f0$845c21d2@Necom.hzic.edu.cn">
  <title></title>
  <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1">
  <meta content="MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name="GENERATOR">
  <style></style>
  <div><font face="Arial" size="2">Hi Alex,</font></div>
  <div>&nbsp;</div>
  <div><font face="Arial" size="2">Thank you for your comments. Pls see
the inline reply.</font></div>
  <div>&nbsp;</div>
  <div><font face="Arial" size="2">Best regards,</font></div>
  <div><font face="Arial" size="2">Weiming</font></div>
  <blockquote dir="ltr"
 style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(0, 0, 0); padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px;">
    <div
 style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size-adjust: none;">-----
Original Message ----- </div>
    <div
 style="background: rgb(228, 228, 228) none repeat scroll 0%; -moz-background-clip: initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: initial; -moz-background-origin: initial; font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size-adjust: none;"><b>From:</b>
    <a title="alex.audu@alcatel.com" href="mailto:alex.audu@alcatel.com">Alex
Audu</a> </div>
    <div
 style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size-adjust: none;"><b>To:</b>
    <a title="wmwang@mail.hzic.edu.cn"
 href="mailto:wmwang@mail.hzic.edu.cn">Wang,Weiming</a> </div>
    <div
 style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size-adjust: none;"><b>Cc:</b>
    <a title="avri@psg.com" href="mailto:avri@psg.com">avri</a> ; <a
 title="chaopingwu@comcast.net" href="mailto:chaopingwu@comcast.net">Chaoping
Wu</a> ; <a title="ellen.m.deleganes@intel.com"
 href="mailto:ellen.m.deleganes@intel.com">Deleganes Ellen M</a> ; <a
 title="donglg@mail.hzic.edu.cn" href="mailto:donglg@mail.hzic.edu.cn">Dong,
Ligang</a> ; <a title="gyf@htrdc.com" href="mailto:gyf@htrdc.com">Guo,
Yunfei</a> ; <a title="hadi@znyx.com" href="mailto:hadi@znyx.com">Jamal
Hadi Salim</a> ; <a title="jpickering@creeksidenet.com"
 href="mailto:jpickering@creeksidenet.com">Jeff Pickering</a> ; <a
 title="jon.maloy@ericsson.com" href="mailto:jon.maloy@ericsson.com">Jon
Maloy</a> ; <a title="hormuzd.m.khosravi@intel.com"
 href="mailto:hormuzd.m.khosravi@intel.com">Khosravi, Hormuzd M</a> ; <a
 title="dro@zurich.ibm.com" href="mailto:dro@zurich.ibm.com">Patrick
Droz</a> ; <a title="david.putzolu@intel.com"
 href="mailto:david.putzolu@intel.com">Putzolu David</a> ; <a
 title="rha@zurich.ibm.com" href="mailto:rha@zurich.ibm.com">Robert Haas</a>
; <a title="spyros.denazis@hitachi-eu.com"
 href="mailto:spyros.denazis@hitachi-eu.com">Spyros Denazis</a> ; <a
 title="slblake@torrentnet.com" href="mailto:slblake@torrentnet.com">Steve
Blake</a> ; <a title="gmwang@mail.hzic.edu.cn"
 href="mailto:gmwang@mail.hzic.edu.cn">Wang, Guangming</a> </div>
    <div
 style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size-adjust: none;"><b>Sent:</b>
Friday, February 27, 2004 2:06 AM</div>
    <div
 style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size-adjust: none;"><b>Subject:</b>
Re: ForCES Protocol Analysis Design Team Administrivia</div>
    <div><br>
    </div>
    <div>Hello Weiming,<br>
    <br>
I'll address some of the issues you raised.<br>
    <br>
1) Seperate Data Redirect and Control channels/ relative importance of
Control vs Redirect info<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; It is easy to see that the redirect data can be manipulated by an
outside source (External to <br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the NE).&nbsp; In the case of such a source being malicious, it is
necessary to give priority to <br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the control data to maintain integrity of the NE.<br>
    <br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; You sighted BGP experience.&nbsp; Indeed, the realization that it is
safer to separate externally<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; generated control data like redirect-data from internally
generated control data grew out<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; of&nbsp; experience gleamed from past DOS attacks on BGP.<br>
    <br>
2)&nbsp; C channel and D channel are on the same physical link.&nbsp;&nbsp; For DOS
survivability, you need <br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; to seperate then somehow. If you use SCTP, you can put them on
separate streams on<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the same link. That will work.&nbsp; But what will be best is a
non-reliable congestion aware<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; stream/link for&nbsp; D-channel and a reliable stream/link for
C-channel.<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Rate controlling is important. But if&nbsp; you need to allow your C
information to flow freely<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; to adaptively effect counter-meassures if the NE is being DOS'd.<br>
    </div>
    <div><font face="Arial" size="2">Re. 1&amp;2:&nbsp; I suppose a
separation of D and C&nbsp;packets inside FE while using&nbsp;only
one&nbsp;stream(channel) to accross the </font></div>
    <div><font face="Arial" size="2">physical link&nbsp;(GRMP DoS protection
scheme) can also achieve all these goals (DoS protection, rate control,
priority, </font></div>
    <div><font face="Arial" size="2">security, reliability).&nbsp;We
just&nbsp;ask that </font><font face="Arial" size="2">if we don't need </font><font
 face="Arial" size="2">to&nbsp;provide the&nbsp;two diffenrent&nbsp;channels in the
physical link so</font></div>
    <div><font face="Arial" size="2">&nbsp;as to prevent DoS, are we still
interested </font><font face="Arial" size="2">in giving the D packets </font><font
 face="Arial" size="2">a different transport reliability?</font></div>
  </blockquote>
</blockquote>
[Alex] If I understand your question correctly, no,..this does not mean
you are giving D <br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; packets a different transport reliability. But if you carry
D and C data on the same<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; channel, you have to be mindful not to let D data impact
flow of C data.<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; And frankly, I don't know what that means regarding your
question.<br>
&nbsp; <br>
<blockquote type="cite"
 cite="mid018301c3fd2f$faa6c6f0$845c21d2@Necom.hzic.edu.cn">
  <blockquote dir="ltr"
 style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(0, 0, 0); padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px;">
    <div><br>
3) Delay of D packets by&nbsp; delay of C packets.&nbsp;&nbsp; This sould not happen
if your channels are<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; independent. And&nbsp; D packets may dictate what C packets get sent to
the FE.&nbsp; The<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; problem might be related to the way your real-time processes are
running the D and C <br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; queues.&nbsp; You can play with thread priorities,..etc to resolve this.</div>
  </blockquote>
  <blockquote dir="ltr"
 style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(0, 0, 0); padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px;">
    <div><font face="Arial" size="2">Re: Yes, this is because of the
congestion of queues of D packets and C packets, but the same will</font></div>
    <div><font face="Arial" size="2">also happen to separated D/C
channels if they use the same physical link. Only the difference is the
latter</font></div>
    <div><font face="Arial" size="2">may use OS kernel to schedule
while the former uses ForCES protocol defined scheduler. </font><br>
    <br>
4) C/D separation resource cost:&nbsp;&nbsp; This is not as expensive as the cost
paid when DOS<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; attacks occur.&nbsp; Besides, hardware resources are getting cheaper by
the day,..and <br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; processors are getting faster too.&nbsp; </div>
    <div>&nbsp;</div>
    <div>Re:&nbsp; again, by separating the D packets and C packets inside
an FE, we can also prevent DoS efficiently. </div>
  </blockquote>
</blockquote>
[Alex]&nbsp; Say you are been DOS'd with a million D packets, and your C
sends one message to<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; help counter the problem.&nbsp; Your packet separator will have
to do a lot of work<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; before getting to the C packets in the queue.&nbsp; I don't
think this makes for quick<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; recovery from the attack.<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <br>
<blockquote type="cite"
 cite="mid018301c3fd2f$faa6c6f0$845c21d2@Necom.hzic.edu.cn">
  <blockquote dir="ltr"
 style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(0, 0, 0); padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px;">
    <div><br>
General comments. May be a way to go forward is to make it a SHOULD to
implement<br>
&nbsp;(on seperate D/C channels) and leave the rest up to
implementation,...I am not sure. Any comments?</div>
    <div>&nbsp;</div>
    <div><font face="Arial" size="2">Re: I agree. What we propose is
only to limit&nbsp;such a&nbsp;separation inside an FE instead of expanding it
to&nbsp;the FE-CE link.</font></div>
    <div><br>
Regards,<br>
Alex.21<br>
    </div>
  </blockquote>
</blockquote>
..[snip]..<br>
</body>
</html>

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------=_NextPart_000_0053_01C3FE01.8099EEA0--


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From exim@www1.ietf.org  Sat Feb 28 07:32:33 2004
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Subject: Re: [Forces-protocol] Re: ForCES Protocol Analysis Design Team Administrivia
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Subject: RE: [Forces-protocol] Re: ForCES Protocol Analysis Design Team Administrivia
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Thread-Topic: [Forces-protocol] Re: ForCES Protocol Analysis Design Team Administrivia
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From: "Khosravi, Hormuzd M" <hormuzd.m.khosravi@intel.com>
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Weiming,

=20

After going thru all the emails on this topic, seems like most protocol
authors as well as non-authors

except yourself agree that there should be separate transports for C & D
channel. 2 good reasons

have been given for this: different reliability and robustness against
DoS attacks. You agree with the

first but not with the latter. The problem with implementing scheduling
at the protocol level and sending

all the messages over a single TCP channel is that the app or protocol
scheduling has little control

over the TCP queues inside the OS. So scheduling at the protocol level
will not help during a DoS attack

once the TCP queue inside the OS if full.

This is the reason why most people on this list are suggesting using
different transports or multiple

channels for D and C channel. We can discuss this further during the
meeting if you like.

=20

BTW, I have been receiving many duplicate emails from you, but am not
seeing all the other emails.

There might be some problems with this mailing list.

=20

Regards

Hormuzd

=20

  _____ =20

From: forces-protocol-admin@ietf.org
[mailto:forces-protocol-admin@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Wang,Weiming
Sent: Friday, February 27, 2004 10:10 PM
To: forces-protocol@ietf.org
Subject: [Forces-protocol] Re: ForCES Protocol Analysis Design Team
Administrivia

=20

=20

Hi Sandy,

=20

Thank you for the comments. Pls see reply in the lines.=20

=20

=20

[[Sandy]]=20

I am concerned about the separation of the D and C packets at the ForCES
protocol layer. I wonder if it is not too late at both ends of the
communication channel; by this I mean resources are allocated to
distinguish between the two but DoS might have already occurred or C
packets might have already been lost due to congestion on D.=20

=20

[WangRe]

I can not find any reason it will be delayed more to schedule D and C
packets at ForCES protocol layer than to schedule them at the transport
layer. Actually the former happens ahead of the latter. =20

=20

[Sandy]

I believe marking the two types and doing the separation at transport
layer is safer and uses existing mechanisms that do not overload the
protocol. =20

=20

[WangRe]

Could you give more reasons why it is safer to schedue the D/C packets
at the transport layer? My opinion is they are the same, except one is
done by OS kernel scheduling (usually using round robin), the other is
done by ForCES assigned scheduling whose scheduling

decispline can be flexibly set by ForCES protocol, and D/C packets can
be very easily and differentialtedly scheduled.=20

=20

[Sandy]

Differentiated scheduling for D and C would be my preference.=20

=20

[WangRe]

 By saying to use united scheduling, I actually mean it may be able to
exploit more from usual separate scheduling. If it is impossible (we are
doing experiments to try it), there is no any limit for us to separately
schedule D/C packets as usual.=20

=20

[Sandy]

And yes, there should be a differentiation between C and D for transport
reliability.  =20

=20

[WangRe]

Actually I agree to differentiate the D/C packets for its transport
relaibility, if possible. Maybe I should have stated the question as "
Is it worthy or not to define a separate transport layer channel for D
packets in ForCES protocol specifications  to only achieve a little
lower reliability for the D packets transmision?"  Taking the chance to
reply your comments, pls allow me to point out more cons on this:=20

=20

1.  First of all, as I'v mentioned, such a D channel is only of use for
assigning different transport reliability for D packets. It has no use
for DoS protection.=20

=20

2. Such a little difference for reliability requiements can be
distinguished via ForCES protocol built in mechanisims by deciding to or
not to use something like ACK, checksum, etc.

=20

3. To define a separate channel for D packets is also very case
specific. That is, in UDP/TCP based CE-FE interconnection case, we may
think of using UDP for D packets and TCP for C packets. But what then if
the  CE-FE link is Ethernet based, ATM based, backplane bus based, and
any future technology based?  Are we going to define it one by one? And
what then if the CE-FE link can only provide a channel?=20

=20

4. On countrary, it surely consumes more resources and makes ForCES
protocol management more complex.=20

=20

=20

Best Regards,=20

Weiming


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<body bgcolor=3Dwhite lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dblue>

<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Weiming,</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>After going thru all the emails on =
this
topic, seems like most protocol authors as well as =
non-authors</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>except yourself agree that there =
should be
separate transports for C &amp; D channel. 2 good =
reasons</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>have been given for this: different
reliability and robustness against DoS attacks. You agree with =
the</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>first but not with the latter. The =
problem
with implementing scheduling at the protocol level and =
sending</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>all the messages over a single TCP =
channel
is that the app or protocol scheduling has little =
control</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>over the TCP queues inside the OS. =
So
scheduling at the protocol level will not help during a DoS =
attack</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>once the TCP queue inside the OS if =
full.</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>This is the reason why most people =
on this
list are suggesting using different transports or =
multiple</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>channels for D and C channel. We =
can
discuss this further during the meeting if you like.</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>BTW, I have been receiving many =
duplicate
emails from you, but am not seeing all the other =
emails.</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>There might be some problems with =
this
mailing list.</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Regards</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Hormuzd</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
color=3Dblack face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:windowtext'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DTahoma><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:windowtext;font-weight=
:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
color:windowtext'> forces-protocol-admin@ietf.org
[mailto:forces-protocol-admin@ietf.org] <b><span =
style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On
Behalf Of </span></b>Wang,Weiming<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Friday, February =
27, 2004
10:10 PM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> =
forces-protocol@ietf.org<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> =
[Forces-protocol] Re: ForCES
Protocol Analysis Design Team Administrivia</span></font></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-CA
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:windowtext'>&nbsp;</spa=
n></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DSimSun><span =
lang=3DEN-CA
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:SimSun;color:windowtext'>Hi =
Sandy,</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
lang=3DEN-CA =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:windowtext'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack face=3DSimSun><span =
lang=3DEN-CA
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:SimSun;color:windowtext'>Thank you =
for the
comments. Pls see&nbsp;reply in the lines. </span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
lang=3DEN-CA style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
lang=3DEN-CA
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>&nbsp;</span></fo=
nt></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><i><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy =
face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-CA
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;font-weight:bold;
font-style:italic'>[[Sandy]] </span></font></i></b></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><i><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy =
face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-CA
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;font-weight:bold;
font-style:italic'>I am concerned about the separation of the D and C =
packets
at the ForCES protocol layer. I wonder if it is not too late at both =
ends of
the communication channel; by this I mean resources are allocated to
distinguish between the two but DoS might have already occurred or C =
packets
might have already been lost due to congestion on D. =
</span></font></i></b></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><i><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3D"Times =
New Roman"><span
lang=3DEN-CA =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>&nbsp;</spa=
n></font></i></b></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><i><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack =
face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-CA
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;font-style:i=
talic'>[</span></font></i></b><b><i><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-CA =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:blue;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>WangRe]<=
/span></font></i></b></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><i><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue =
face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-CA
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue;font-weight:bold;
font-style:italic'>I can not find any reason it will be delayed more to
schedule D and C packets at ForCES protocol layer than to schedule them =
at the
transport layer. Actually the former happens ahead of the =
latter.</span></font></i></b><b><i><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-CA =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:navy;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>&nbsp; =
</span></font></i></b></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
lang=3DEN-CA style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><i><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy =
face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-CA
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;font-weight:bold;
font-style:italic'>[Sandy]</span></font></i></b></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><i><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy =
face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-CA
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;font-weight:bold;
font-style:italic'>I believe marking the two types and doing the =
separation at
transport layer is safer and uses existing mechanisms that do not =
overload the
protocol.&nbsp; </span></font></i></b></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
lang=3DEN-CA style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><i><font size=3D2 color=3Dblack =
face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-CA
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;font-style:i=
talic'>[</span></font></i></b><b><i><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-CA =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:blue;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>WangRe]<=
/span></font></i></b></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><i><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue =
face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-CA
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue;font-weight:bold;
font-style:italic'>Could you give more reasons why it is safer to =
schedue the
D/C packets at the transport layer? My opinion is they are the same, =
except one</span></font></i></b><b><i><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-CA =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:navy;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'> =
</span></font></i></b><b><i><font
size=3D2 color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-CA =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:blue;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>is done =
by OS
kernel scheduling (usually using round robin), the other is done by =
ForCES
assigned scheduling whose scheduling</span></font></i></b></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><i><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue =
face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-CA
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue;font-weight:bold;
font-style:italic'>decispline can be flexibly set by ForCES protocol, =
and D/C
packets can be very easily and differentialtedly =
scheduled.</span></font></i></b><b><i><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-CA =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:navy;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'> =
</span></font></i></b></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
lang=3DEN-CA style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><i><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy =
face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-CA
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;font-weight:bold;
font-style:italic'>[Sandy]</span></font></i></b></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><i><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy =
face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-CA
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;font-weight:bold;
font-style:italic'>Differentiated scheduling for D and C would be my
preference. </span></font></i></b></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
lang=3DEN-CA style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><i><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue =
face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-CA
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue;font-weight:bold;
font-style:italic'>[WangRe]</span></font></i></b></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><i><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue =
face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-CA
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue;font-weight:bold;
font-style:italic'>&nbsp;By saying to use united scheduling, I actually =
mean it
may be able to exploit more from usual separate scheduling. If it is =
impossible
(we are doing experiments to try it), there is no any limit for us to
separately schedule D/C packets as =
usual.</span></font></i></b><b><i><font
size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-CA =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:navy;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'> =
</span></font></i></b></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
lang=3DEN-CA style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><i><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy =
face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-CA
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;font-weight:bold;
font-style:italic'>[Sandy]</span></font></i></b></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><i><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy =
face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-CA
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;font-weight:bold;
font-style:italic'>And yes, there should be a differentiation between C =
and D
for transport reliability.&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></font></i></b></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><i><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3D"Times =
New Roman"><span
lang=3DEN-CA =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>&nbsp;</spa=
n></font></i></b></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><i><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue =
face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-CA
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue;font-weight:bold;
font-style:italic'>[WangRe]</span></font></i></b></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><i><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue =
face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-CA
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue;font-weight:bold;
font-style:italic'>Actually I agree to differentiate the D/C packets for =
its
transport relaibility, if possible. Maybe I should have stated&nbsp;the
question as &quot; Is it worthy or not to&nbsp;define a separate =
transport
layer channel for D packets in ForCES protocol specifications&nbsp; to =
only
achieve a little lower reliability for the D packets =
transmision?&quot;&nbsp;
Taking the chance to reply your comments, pls allow me to point out more =
cons
on this: </span></font></i></b></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
lang=3DEN-CA style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><i><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue =
face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-CA
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue;font-weight:bold;
font-style:italic'>1.&nbsp; First of all, as I'v mentioned, such a D
channel&nbsp;is only of use for assigning different transport =
reliability for D
packets. It has no use for DoS protection. </span></font></i></b></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
lang=3DEN-CA style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><i><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue =
face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-CA
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue;font-weight:bold;
font-style:italic'>2. Such a little difference for reliability =
requiements can
be&nbsp;distinguished via ForCES protocol built in mechanisims by =
deciding to
or not to use&nbsp;something like ACK,&nbsp;checksum, =
etc.</span></font></i></b></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
lang=3DEN-CA style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><i><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue =
face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-CA
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue;font-weight:bold;
font-style:italic'>3. To&nbsp;define a separate channel for D packets is =
also
very case specific. That is, in UDP/TCP&nbsp;based CE-FE interconnection =
case,
we may think of using UDP for D packets and TCP for C packets. But what =
then if
the </span></font></i></b><b><i><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy =
face=3DArial><span
lang=3DEN-CA =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;font-weight:
bold;font-style:italic'>&nbsp;</span></font></i></b><b><i><font size=3D2
color=3Dblue face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-CA =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:blue;font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>CE-FE link is =
Ethernet
based, ATM based, backplane bus based, and any&nbsp;future technology
based?&nbsp; Are we going to define it one by one? And what then if the =
CE-FE
link can only provide a channel? </span></font></i></b></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
lang=3DEN-CA style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><i><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue =
face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-CA
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue;font-weight:bold;
font-style:italic'>4. On countrary, it surely consumes more resources =
and makes
ForCES protocol management more complex. </span></font></i></b></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
lang=3DEN-CA style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
lang=3DEN-CA style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><i><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue =
face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-CA
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue;font-weight:bold;
font-style:italic'>Best Regards, </span></font></i></b></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><i><font size=3D2 color=3Dblue =
face=3DArial><span lang=3DEN-CA
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue;font-weight:bold;
font-style:italic'>Weiming</span></font></i></b></p>

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Subject: RE: [Forces-protocol] Re: ForCES Protocol Analysis Design Team Administrivia
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From: "Khosravi, Hormuzd M" <hormuzd.m.khosravi@intel.com>
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Hi All

=20

I was thinking about the issue of transport(s) for the ForCES protocol
which is probably one of the most important and might be quite
contentious.

One way to resolve this and make some progress is to separate this from
the ForCES base protocol, let us consider having 2 drafts...one which=20

defines the base protocol assuming a reliable transport and the second
which defines how the base protocol will work over different reliable as
well as=20

unreliable transports e.g. TCP/IP, UDP/IP, TIPC, Ethernet, PCI, etc. The
base protocol can concentrate on the basic protocol messages needed for=20

control, configuration, capability exchange, etc. as well as other
transactioning semantics (2-phase commit), etc. The 2nd draft, say on
'encapsulation

for the base protocol' can discuss the details of providing reliability
over unreliable transports using some encapsulation header or TLV, etc.
and how

the base protocol will work over different transports.

We will eventually need to mandate 1 or minimum set of transports for
the protocol, but that can be decided later. In the mean time we can
continue=20

making progress on both drafts. How does that sound to you guys ?

=20

Let us know.

=20

=20

Regards

Hormuzd

=20


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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Hi All</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I was thinking about the issue of
transport(s) for the ForCES protocol which is probably one of the most
important and might be quite contentious.</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>One way to resolve this and make =
some
progress is to separate this from the ForCES base protocol, let us =
consider
having 2 drafts&#8230;one which </span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>defines the base protocol assuming =
a
reliable transport and the second which defines how the base protocol =
will work
over different reliable as well as </span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>unreliable transports e.g. TCP/IP, =
UDP/IP,
TIPC, Ethernet, PCI, etc. The base protocol can concentrate on the basic
protocol messages needed for </span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>control, configuration, capability
exchange, etc. as well as other transactioning semantics (2-phase =
commit), etc.
The 2<sup>nd</sup> draft, say on &#8216;encapsulation</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>for the base protocol&#8217; can =
discuss
the details of providing reliability over unreliable transports using =
some
encapsulation header or TLV, etc. and how</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>the base protocol will work over =
different
transports.</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>We will eventually need to mandate =
1 or
minimum set of transports for the protocol, but that can be decided =
later. In
the mean time we can continue </span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>making progress on both drafts. How =
does
that sound to you guys ?</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Let us know.</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Regards</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Hormuzd</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

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