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To: Santosh Rao <santoshr@cup.hp.com>
Cc: IPS Reflector <ips@ece.cmu.edu>, rdr@io.iol.unh.edu,
        Robert Snively <rsnively@Brocade.COM>, santoshr@hpcuhe.cup.hp.com,
        T10 Reflector <t10@t10.org>
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Subject: Re: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues
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From: "Julian Satran" <Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com>
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Santosh,

I think that this behaviour should be specified by SPC3. I looked (again) 
into the FCP docs and like iSCSI they do not say anything beyond
iSCSI says. Like iSCSI they specify that the field is valid when the Oo/Uu 
bits are set but nothing about how those bits relate to status.
SPC says nothing about that either  (beyond that the bits set are not 
necessarily an indication of error). 

Julo




Santosh Rao <santoshr@cup.hp.com>
Sent by: santoshr@hpcuhe.cup.hp.com
08/01/2002 03:44 AM

 
        To:     IPS Reflector <ips@ece.cmu.edu>, Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL, 
rdr@io.iol.unh.edu
        cc:     Robert Snively <rsnively@brocade.com>, T10 Reflector <t10@t10.org>
        Subject:        Re: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues

 

Julian & Robert [Russell],

I raised the same query regarding RESID for FCP/FCP-2 this time last
year. The response I got for FCP/FCP-2 was that RESID information shall
be valid, regardless of the scsi status returned. The RESID field, can
be checked by the scsi transport drivers independent of the SCSI STATUS.

I have enclosed the T10 response from Rob Snivelly below on that issue.
As per FC-PLDA, the RESID information is valid, regardless of the scsi
status returned by the device. 

An example of this is the case of "NO SENSE" or "RECOVERED ERROR" check
condition, when the data transfer may have taken place and a CHECK
CONDITION is returned. Also, for other CHECK CONDITION status', partial
data transfer may have taken place and hence, resid information should
be present.

It would be good to maintain consistent behaviour across the scsi
transports in this regard, since protocol bridging from iscsi to FCP
domain would expect RESID information in the FCP domain, regardless of
scsi status.

This also allows scsi transports to remain free of SCSI command set
details. (ex : the scsi transport drivers do not need to parse for CHECK
CONDITION or GOO status information.)

Thanks,
Santosh


-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues
Date:    Thu, 1 Aug 2002 02:52:19 +0300
From:   "Julian Satran" <Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com>
To:     "Robert D. Russell" <rdr@io.iol.unh.edu>
CC:     ips@ece.cmu.edu

Bob, 

Thanks - some comments in text. Julo 


  "Robert D. Russell" <rdr@io.iol.unh.edu> 
 
Julian:

Four issues came up today at the iSCSI plugfest:

1. A question about whether or not the Residual Count field and the
  appropriate O and U bits need to be computed on all SCSI Response
  PDUs, regardless of the values in the Status and/or Response fields.

  One point of view says that the Residual Count field and the O and U
  bits appear to be strictly iSCSI values that are derived by the
  iSCSI target layer from the ExpectedDataTransferLength field of the
  SCSI Command PDU and the DataSegmentLength fields of the DataIn or
  DataOut PDUs sent as part of this command.  Therefore ,the iSCSI
  target always computes a Residual Count value without regard to the
  Status and/or Response fields, since these are SCSI values.

  The other point of view says that the Residual Count field, and the
  O and U bits, need only be set when the Status and Response fields
  indicate that the command was completed at the target with a GOOD
  Status, and the target does not have to compute or set the Residual
  Count field and the O or U bits for other values of the Status and/or
  Response fields.

  Which is it?  In any case, could this be clarified somewhere in the
  standard, most likely in section 9.4.4.

+++ Residual count fields are in fact carrioed over from the SCSI layer.
I know that none of the SCSI docs specifies
exactly their behavior and it strikes me as a bad idea to have protocols
specify them. 
The values should be valid any time the target decides to put them in. 
+++


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: RE: FCP_RSP Residual Checking.
Date:    Thu, 5 Jul 2001 13:18:42 -0700
From:    Robert Snively <rsnively@brocade.com>
To:      "'Santosh Rao'" <santoshr@cup.hp.com>, 
         T10 Reflector <t10@t10.org>, 
         Fibre Channel T11 reflector <fc@network.com>

Robert Snively wrote:
> 
> >  Is the target required to initialize the fields FCP_RESID_UNDER,
> >  FCP_RESID_OVER & FCP_RESID when any I/O is completed
> >  without the data phase having transferred exactly
> >  FCP_DL bytes, regardless of the SCSI Status being returned ?
> 
> >  When the target generates a CHECK CONDITION on an I/O
> >  and may have returned less than FCP_DL bytes in the data
> >  phase for that I/O, is it
> >  required to set the FCP_RESID_UNDER to 1 and indicate the number of
> >  bytes not transferred in the FCP_RESID field?
> 
> The intent is that the answer to your second question is:
> FCP_RESID should appropriately regardless of the SCSI Status
> being returned.  The classic errors of that class are those
> involving successful completion with reporting, like
> the "NO SENSE" and "RECOVERED ERROR" series of errors.
> 
> >
> >  What is the behaviour initiators can expect under the above
> >  condition ?
> 
> The intent is that there be no conflict.  I believe that FCP-2
> was a bit less bald than FC-PLDA in stating the requirement.
> 
> >  Is there a conflict in the behaviours described by FCP/FCP-2
> >  & FC-PLDA ?
> >
> 
> Bob Snively                        e-mail:    rsnively@brocade.com
> Brocade Communications Systems     phone:  408 487 8135
> 1745 Technology Drive
> San Jose, CA 95110
> 
> >  -----Original Message-----
> >  From: Santosh Rao [mailto:santoshr@cup.hp.com]
> >  Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 12:15 PM
> >  To: T10 Reflector; Fibre Channel T11 reflector
> >  Subject: FCP_RSP Residual Checking.
> >
> >
> >  All,
> >
> >  I've got a question on target behaviour while sending a
> >  CHECK CONDITION
> >  SCSI status in its FCP_RSP IU.
> >
> >  Is the target required to initialize the fields FCP_RESID_UNDER,
> >  FCP_RESID_OVER & FCP_RESID when any I/O is completed without the data
> >  phase having transferred exactly FCP_DL bytes, regardless of the SCSI
> >  Status being returned ?
> >
> >  When the target generates a CHECK CONDITION on an I/O and may have
> >  returned less than FCP_DL bytes in the data phase for that I/O, is it
> >  required to set the FCP_RESID_UNDER to 1 and indicate the number of
> >  bytes not transferred in the FCP_RESID field?
> >
> >  FC-PLDA Section 8.2.4.1 states that :
> >  "SCSI targets that transfer less than FCP_DL bytes during
> >  the FCP_DATA
> >  IUs shall set the FCP_RESID_UNDER to 1".
> >
> >  No exceptions are specified in the case of a CHECK CONDITION in the
> >  above definition, implying that FCP_RSP residual checking can be
> >  performed irrespective of the SCSI Status that was returned in the
> >  FCP_RSP.
> >
> >  However, the wording descriptions of FCP_RESID_UNDER,
> >  FCP_RESID_OVER &
> >  FCP_RESID in SCSI-FCP & FCP-2 are not as stringent as
> >  FC-PLDA and do not
> >  mandate that FCP_RESID_UNDER shall be set when the data
> >  transferred is <
> >  FCP_DL.
> >
> >  What is the behaviour initiators can expect under the above
> >  condition ?
> >  Is there a conflict in the behaviours described by FCP/FCP-2
> >  & FC-PLDA ?
> >
> >  Thanks,
> >  Santosh Rao
> >

-- 
Education is when you read the fine print. 
Experience is what you get if you don't.



--=_alternative 00289AE2C2256C08_=
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"


<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Santosh,</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">I think that this behaviour should be specified by SPC3. I looked (again) into the FCP docs and like iSCSI they do not say anything beyond</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">iSCSI says. Like iSCSI they specify that the field is valid when the Oo/Uu bits are set but nothing about how those bits relate to status.</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">SPC says nothing about that either &nbsp;(beyond that the bits set are not necessarily an indication of error). </font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Julo</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>Santosh Rao &lt;santoshr@cup.hp.com&gt;</b></font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Sent by: santoshr@hpcuhe.cup.hp.com</font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">08/01/2002 03:44 AM</font>
<br>
<td><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;IPS Reflector &lt;ips@ece.cmu.edu&gt;, Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL, rdr@io.iol.unh.edu</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Robert Snively &lt;rsnively@brocade.com&gt;, T10 Reflector &lt;t10@t10.org&gt;</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Re: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues</font>
<br>
<br><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font></table>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">Julian &amp; Robert [Russell],<br>
<br>
I raised the same query regarding RESID for FCP/FCP-2 this time last<br>
year. The response I got for FCP/FCP-2 was that RESID information shall<br>
be valid, regardless of the scsi status returned. The RESID field, can<br>
be checked by the scsi transport drivers independent of the SCSI STATUS.<br>
<br>
I have enclosed the T10 response from Rob Snivelly below on that issue.<br>
As per FC-PLDA, the RESID information is valid, regardless of the scsi<br>
status returned by the device. <br>
<br>
An example of this is the case of &quot;NO SENSE&quot; or &quot;RECOVERED ERROR&quot; check<br>
condition, when the data transfer may have taken place and a CHECK<br>
CONDITION is returned. Also, for other CHECK CONDITION status', partial<br>
data transfer may have taken place and hence, resid information should<br>
be present.<br>
<br>
It would be good to maintain consistent behaviour across the scsi<br>
transports in this regard, since protocol bridging from iscsi to FCP<br>
domain would expect RESID information in the FCP domain, regardless of<br>
scsi status.<br>
<br>
This also allows scsi transports to remain free of SCSI command set<br>
details. (ex : the scsi transport drivers do not need to parse for CHECK<br>
CONDITION or GOO status information.)<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
Santosh<br>
<br>
<br>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Subject: Re: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues<br>
Date: &nbsp; &nbsp;Thu, 1 Aug 2002 02:52:19 +0300<br>
From: &nbsp; &quot;Julian Satran&quot; &lt;Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com&gt;<br>
To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &quot;Robert D. Russell&quot; &lt;rdr@io.iol.unh.edu&gt;<br>
CC: &nbsp; &nbsp; ips@ece.cmu.edu<br>
<br>
Bob, <br>
<br>
Thanks - some comments in text. Julo <br>
<br>
<br>
 &nbsp;&quot;Robert D. Russell&quot; &lt;rdr@io.iol.unh.edu&gt; <br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
Julian:<br>
<br>
Four issues came up today at the iSCSI plugfest:<br>
<br>
1. A question about whether or not the Residual Count field and the<br>
 &nbsp;appropriate O and U bits need to be computed on all SCSI Response<br>
 &nbsp;PDUs, regardless of the values in the Status and/or Response fields.<br>
<br>
 &nbsp;One point of view says that the Residual Count field and the O and U<br>
 &nbsp;bits appear to be strictly iSCSI values that are derived by the<br>
 &nbsp;iSCSI target layer from the ExpectedDataTransferLength field of the<br>
 &nbsp;SCSI Command PDU and the DataSegmentLength fields of the DataIn or<br>
 &nbsp;DataOut PDUs sent as part of this command. &nbsp;Therefore ,the iSCSI<br>
 &nbsp;target always computes a Residual Count value without regard to the<br>
 &nbsp;Status and/or Response fields, since these are SCSI values.<br>
<br>
 &nbsp;The other point of view says that the Residual Count field, and the<br>
 &nbsp;O and U bits, need only be set when the Status and Response fields<br>
 &nbsp;indicate that the command was completed at the target with a GOOD<br>
 &nbsp;Status, and the target does not have to compute or set the Residual<br>
 &nbsp;Count field and the O or U bits for other values of the Status and/or<br>
 &nbsp;Response fields.<br>
<br>
 &nbsp;Which is it? &nbsp;In any case, could this be clarified somewhere in the<br>
 &nbsp;standard, most likely in section 9.4.4.<br>
<br>
+++ Residual count fields are in fact carrioed over from the SCSI layer.<br>
I know that none of the SCSI docs specifies<br>
exactly their behavior and it strikes me as a bad idea to have protocols<br>
specify them. <br>
The values should be valid any time the target decides to put them in. <br>
+++<br>
</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New"><br>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
Subject: RE: FCP_RSP Residual Checking.<br>
Date: &nbsp; &nbsp;Thu, 5 Jul 2001 13:18:42 -0700<br>
From: &nbsp; &nbsp;Robert Snively &lt;rsnively@brocade.com&gt;<br>
To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&quot;'Santosh Rao'&quot; &lt;santoshr@cup.hp.com&gt;, <br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; T10 Reflector &lt;t10@t10.org&gt;, <br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Fibre Channel T11 reflector &lt;fc@network.com&gt;<br>
<br>
Robert Snively wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;Is the target required to initialize the fields FCP_RESID_UNDER,<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;FCP_RESID_OVER &amp; FCP_RESID when any I/O is completed<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;without the data phase having transferred exactly<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;FCP_DL bytes, regardless of the SCSI Status being returned ?<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;When the target generates a CHECK CONDITION on an I/O<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;and may have returned less than FCP_DL bytes in the data<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;phase for that I/O, is it<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;required to set the FCP_RESID_UNDER to 1 and indicate the number of<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;bytes not transferred in the FCP_RESID field?<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; The intent is that the answer to your second question is:<br>
&gt; FCP_RESID should appropriately regardless of the SCSI Status<br>
&gt; being returned. &nbsp;The classic errors of that class are those<br>
&gt; involving successful completion with reporting, like<br>
&gt; the &quot;NO SENSE&quot; and &quot;RECOVERED ERROR&quot; series of errors.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;What is the behaviour initiators can expect under the above<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;condition ?<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; The intent is that there be no conflict. &nbsp;I believe that FCP-2<br>
&gt; was a bit less bald than FC-PLDA in stating the requirement.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;Is there a conflict in the behaviours described by FCP/FCP-2<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;&amp; FC-PLDA ?<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Bob Snively &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;e-mail: &nbsp; &nbsp;rsnively@brocade.com<br>
&gt; Brocade Communications Systems &nbsp; &nbsp; phone: &nbsp;408 487 8135<br>
&gt; 1745 Technology Drive<br>
&gt; San Jose, CA 95110<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;-----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;From: Santosh Rao [mailto:santoshr@cup.hp.com]<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 12:15 PM<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;To: T10 Reflector; Fibre Channel T11 reflector<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;Subject: FCP_RSP Residual Checking.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;All,<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;I've got a question on target behaviour while sending a<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;CHECK CONDITION<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;SCSI status in its FCP_RSP IU.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;Is the target required to initialize the fields FCP_RESID_UNDER,<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;FCP_RESID_OVER &amp; FCP_RESID when any I/O is completed without the data<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;phase having transferred exactly FCP_DL bytes, regardless of the SCSI<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;Status being returned ?<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;When the target generates a CHECK CONDITION on an I/O and may have<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;returned less than FCP_DL bytes in the data phase for that I/O, is it<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;required to set the FCP_RESID_UNDER to 1 and indicate the number of<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;bytes not transferred in the FCP_RESID field?<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;FC-PLDA Section 8.2.4.1 states that :<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;&quot;SCSI targets that transfer less than FCP_DL bytes during<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;the FCP_DATA<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;IUs shall set the FCP_RESID_UNDER to 1&quot;.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;No exceptions are specified in the case of a CHECK CONDITION in the<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;above definition, implying that FCP_RSP residual checking can be<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;performed irrespective of the SCSI Status that was returned in the<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;FCP_RSP.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;However, the wording descriptions of FCP_RESID_UNDER,<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;FCP_RESID_OVER &amp;<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;FCP_RESID in SCSI-FCP &amp; FCP-2 are not as stringent as<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;FC-PLDA and do not<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;mandate that FCP_RESID_UNDER shall be set when the data<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;transferred is &lt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;FCP_DL.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;What is the behaviour initiators can expect under the above<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;condition ?<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;Is there a conflict in the behaviours described by FCP/FCP-2<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;&amp; FC-PLDA ?<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;Thanks,<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;Santosh Rao<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Education is when you read the fine print. <br>
Experience is what you get if you don't.<br>
</font>
<br>
<br>
--=_alternative 00289AE2C2256C08_=--


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Thu Aug  1 04:14:56 2002
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From: "Elizabeth G. Rodriguez" <Elizabeth.G.Rodriguez@123mail.net>
To: <ips@ece.cmu.edu>
Subject: IPS Yokohoma draft minutes
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 02:38:36 -0600
Message-ID: <001b01c23936$ddd69500$1521c0d8@EGRodriguez>
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Please send any comments by Friday Noon.

Thanks,

Elizabeth Rodriguez
------

IPS Meeting Minutes

Monday, July 15, 2002  (60 attendees)

- There are currently 23 WG drafts. Of these,
    2 are in the RFC editors queue
    4 have completed WG last call
    1 has completed initial WG last call, but will need second.
    3 deal with last call issues, and will be allowed to expire w/o
further processing.
      Most of the others are either ready for last call, or will be
shortly.

- The FC encapsulation document has completed WG last call, but is being
held until FCIP and iFCP documents are ready to be forwarded to the ADs
for their review and IETF last call.
- The iFCP and FCIP documents have completed WG last call, but are being
held pending a final review against the IPS security document.
- The IPS security document has completed WG last call.  A few technical
and editorial comments must be addressed.  Waiting completion of the
final draft, expected some time in August.
- The iSCSI draft has completed its initial WG last call.  Many
technical and editorial comments have been received.  Most have been
addressed in a preliminary draft, and others addressed during the IPS WG
meeting in Yokohoma.  The group is encouraged to review the working
version of the draft, comments against the draft and their resolution at
http://www.haifa.il.ibm.com/satran/ips/
The current working version of the draft is located at 
http://www.haifa.il.ibm.com/satran/ips/draft-ietf-ips-iscsi-15-working.p
df
The current list of comments and their resolution, if any, is available
at
http://www.haifa.il.ibm.com/satran/ips/iSCSI-WG-Last-Call-Issues-And-Res
olution.txt
- FC Mgmt MIB is ready for WG last call, and will be started this week

iSCSI Plugfest
- The 4th iSCSI Interoperability Plugfest will be held the week of July
29 at UNH Interoperability Labs.
- Contact for the plugfest is Stephen Schafer (stephens@iol.unh.edu, 603
862 5083)
- UNH Web site at www.iol.unh.edu
- Past Plugfests have had 36 companies participate (34 US, 1 Japan, 1
Israel)
- Consisted of Disk, Bridge, Routers, Filers, Tape
- Discovered many issues.  Info available on both IPS mailing list and
IOL web site.
- Tests divided into two categories  Interoperability and Compliance.
Reference design for interoperability testing is available.
- The 4th plugfest will focus on Login Phase conformance, Parameter
Negotiation, Full feature phase conformance, error recover (new test
tool spoofer), security (CHAP), and multiple conformance, Parameter
Negotiation, Full feature phase conformance, error recover (new test
tool spoofer), security (CHAP), and multiple connections per session.
- Request made to make a list of companies participating in plugfests
available.  This can help people justify participation to their
companies.  This may be able to be accommodated  results are
confidential, but companies participating should not be.

Security Draft
- Completed WG last call
- 2 loose ends
  SRP Groups: 
   Issue: SRP primes only probabilistically tested. Could use IKE
grups, primes proven, but no generators.
   Results: Now have generators for IKE groups (courtesy of Tom Wu),
and independent probabilistic test of SRP primes have been performed
(courtesy of Vince Cavanna)
   Will go forward with these results
  (Note:  See Tuesday minutes for update -- Primality of SRP primes
proven)

  AES Counter Mode
   Currently SHOULD implement for all IP Storage Protocols (3DES CBC is
must implement)
   AES CTR Mode is not making good progress in the IPsec WG. The
experts are engaged, but no current draft. Problems seem to center
around the design of the counter.
   AES CTR Mode is more suitable to 10Gb design, but AES CBC mode
should be able to run at 10Gb as well. AES CBC is currently available. 
   Q to group  What should be done
   Nothing right now; pull AES CTR Mode at time of IETF last call if
AES CTR Mode still not available, may replace at that time with AES CBC
mode
   Replace AES CTR Mode with AES CBC mode now
   Make both AES CTR and AES CBC modes SHOULD now, and eliminate AES
CTR mode later, if still not available. 
   After much discussion, consensus by WG is that AES CBC mode should
replace AES CTR mode now. (NOTE: This decision modified on Tuesday to
change to AES CBC mode should AES CTR mode still not available by Aug
31, based on information received from one of the IPsec WG Chairs)
   This decision needs to be sent to mailing list to check for
objections to this decision.

SCSI MIB
- Stable
- Minor Wording and compile issues
- Will be an 04 draft.
- 04 will be ready for WG last call, in August/September time frame

- Q: Related to relationship of iSCSI MIB to T10: This is an IETF draft.
There will be no T10 document. Initially, when this draft adopted, it
was at request of T10  they contributed what they feel is needed in the
MIB, but do not feel they have the expertise to develop the MIB.

iSCSI
- Long Lived Discovery Sessions: Currently no restrictions on what can
PDUs can be used in discovery sessions. Targets only required to accept
Logout and SendTargets. Has been restricted further, such that the
initiator is limited to only sending those PDUs, and target is limited
to responding to them (no NOPs, no Async Messages). Sessions are not
intended to be long lived.
- Appropriate Limits on Decimal Encoding: Can only encode values that
have a fixed size, and that fixed size fits in 64 bits (e.g., if the
value of a 128-bit parameter happens to fit in 64 bits, decimal cannot
be used).
- Size requirements for negotiation: How much text is an implementer
required to accept because of login? This is important, in that
implementations may have to set aside this much memory for each login in
progress. The specification currently specifies 16K, unless SPKM then
64K. Argued that max needed today is less than 1 K. Therefore, 4K
requirement should be sufficient. Compromise at 8K. To be checked on the
list for objections.
- ErrorRecoveryLevel 0.5:  Support for only one of the two features
required for ErrorRecoveryLevel 1 support. This is not going to be an
official new level. 1 person objected to this. Rough consensus: For this
scenario, an implementation must negotiate to ErrorRecoveryLevel 0,
since it does not support all the functionality required at
ErrorRecoveryLevel 1. An initiator may then try to initiate
Within-connection recovery or within-command recovery after negotiating
to ErrorRecoveryLevel 0, but must be prepared to work if the target
rejects the attempt  the target may strictly operate at
ErrorRecoveryLevel 0.
- Use of "Irrelevant" in negotiations: Irrelevant is a value response,
and is applicable for dependent keys, only when the key on which it is
dependent is not negotiated to an appropriate value. Request made to add
to the document all the scenarios in which Irrelevant is applicable.
This is impractical  defining all the permutations in the document
would add significant txt to the draft. As compromise, Julian will put
in some examples in the document regarding the use of Irrelevant.
- Bi-Directional Initial R2T useful? iSCSI/FC bridge developments do not
think useful. FCP in the FC world uses the same parameter for its
counterpart.  The BidiInitialR2T key appears in text only where being
defined. Since never appears elsewhere in the document, then not needed.
Decision to follow FCP and fold BidiInitialR2T into InitialR2T. To check
with list for objections.
- IANA issues: 
   Current TCP user port of 3260 defined. Should we allocate a system
port when we go to RFC? Yes. But, current user port will also be kept.
   Registry for vendor-specific key values. Can use reverse DNS name or
IANA registration. Simple to set up registry with IANA. This will be
done, but with a restriction, such as only keys with a special symbol
such as an @ or _ included will be registered by IANA. This insures
that the draft can define new keys in the future without possibility of
defining a vendor specific key.
- Data SNACK resegmentation: This topic is being discussed by David
Black, Julian Satran and John Hufferd, along with Mallikarjun. A small
design team will be formed, to come back with a proposed resolution on
Tuesday.
 
Tuesday, July 16, 2002  (74 attendees)
 
Update: Primality of SRP Primes have been proven recently  announced on
mailing list.
 
Update: AES-CTR mode. Information on Monday some 6 weeks old. Barbara
Fraser, IPsec co-chair indices that a draft is not yet available, but it
is happening, and will likely occur shortly, in time for IPS to make use
of it without hampering IPS drafts schedules. It should go forward in
IPsec WG very quickly, without lots of iterations. (This information
subsequently confirmed with draft author)
-Proposal: Decision made yesterday to replace AES-CTR mode with AES-CBC
delayed, until no later than August 31. If AES-CTR draft is still not
available by that date, or not in reasonably stable shape, then the
replacement will be made.

Data SNACK resegmentation
- Small design team, comprised of David Black, Julian Satran, John
Hufferd, Marjorie Krueger, Mallikarjun Chadalapaka, and Pat Thaler met
Monday between Monday and Tuesday's sessions and came up with a proposed
compromise solution.
- Problem summary:  
   Command active on connection
   Initiator reduces size of PDU
   Initiator does not have all data for outstanding command, requests
retransmission.
   Since PDU size is smaller, cannot retransmit same PDUs as previous;
data must be resegmented.
- Proposed Solution:
  BegRun=0 and RunLength=0 mean send all unacked data
  With Data SNACK that means all data resent are exact replicas except
the usual fields that can change
  With the new SNACK (R-Data) 
    BegRun and RunLength always 0
    Data MAY be resegmented
    Carries a tag (SNACK Tag) at offset 0x20
    SNACK Tag can be built as a number (1-0xffffffffe)
    Target must return a status carrying this tag as the last (or only)
status
    StatSN does not change
    DataSN contiguity kept by target
    SNACK Tag is lost on reassign
    ExpDataSN reflects the information known to initiator at Logout
 



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From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Thu Aug  1 10:34:14 2002
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From: "Mallikarjun C." <cbm@rose.hp.com>
To: <Black_David@emc.com>, <ips@ece.cmu.edu>
References: <277DD60FB639D511AC0400B0D068B71E0564C135@CORPMX14>
Subject: Re: iSCSI - working draft and IANA
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 06:45:49 -0700
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As I already said, I think we should register both 
    - all the current text keys (for the reasons David states below)
    - any future non-X# keys (same argument)

I agree with David that additionally assigning a numeric 
identifier to a string identifier (key name) we already have doesn't
seem like an appealing prospect. 
--
Mallikarjun

Mallikarjun Chadalapaka
Networked Storage Architecture
Network Storage Solutions
Hewlett-Packard MS 5668 
Roseville CA 95747
cbm@rose.hp.com

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <Black_David@emc.com>
To: <ips@ece.cmu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 2:45 PM
Subject: RE: iSCSI - working draft and IANA


> Several comments on this topic:
> 
> - The IANA text in the working draft is going to need some
> expansion.  IANA will want explicit instructions on how
> to manage the registries, as IANA does *not* have
> a single or default set of procedures for this purpose
> and hence needs instructions on what is to be done.
> See RFC 2434.
> 
> - The rationale for the X/Y/Z prefixes is to avoid losing key
> and value names to vendor registration that we might like
> to use in the future - future RFCs would be able to define
> new key and value names without problems, because we wouldn't
> us those prefixes.  The # prefix ensures that registered
> and unregistered vendor-specified names can't conflict.
> Both of these are important (e.g., the X- format for
> vendor-specific keys is not going away at this stage).
> If the # character is objectionable, a possible alternative
> is that registered values MUST NOT contain a period ('.')
> and unregistered values MUST contain a period ('.') between
> the first and second components of the reversed domain name.
> We may also want to reserve/restrict the use of underscore
> ('_') to continue the convention that for AuthMethod <foo>,
> the keys that negotiate its parameters are named <foo>_* .
> 
> - The reason for creating a registry for existing keys is that
> it would provide a single point of reference in the future as
> new keys get added to iSCSI.  Right now this doesn't matter, but
> down the road, after a few RFCs add several new keys, having one
> place to look could be quite convenient.  A number of things
> have been put into IANA registries after the fact as it was
> subsequently discovered that such a registry would be useful
> (e.g., the IP protocol number [IPv4/IPv6] is in such a registry).
> 
> I may need to volunteer to help with the IANA text - it doesn't
> have to be perfect to Last Call the draft as long as for each
> registry, two things are clear:
> 
> - The criteria for registration - the things that someone who
> wants to register something has to present to IANA.
> - How IANA handles registration requests, including reasons for
> rejection and requirements for review.
> 
> I'm not sure about Mark Bakke's suggestion to number newly registered
> authentication/digest algorithms for MIB usage vs. having the MIB use
> the strings.  In practice, the string is what names these algorithms,
> so using numbers seems to create an additional opportunity to get the
> algorithm (string) to number mapping wrong.
> 
> Thanks,
> --David
> ---------------------------------------------------
> David L. Black, Senior Technologist
> EMC Corporation, 42 South St., Hopkinton, MA  01748
> +1 (508) 249-6449            FAX: +1 (508) 497-8018
> black_david@emc.com       Mobile: +1 (978) 394-7754
> ---------------------------------------------------
> 



From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Thu Aug  1 11:34:54 2002
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From: "Robert D. Russell" <rdr@io.iol.unh.edu>
To: Julian Satran <Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com>, <ips@ece.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues
In-Reply-To: <OF1CF0CA71.72746DC1-ONC2256C07.0004D6F4@telaviv.ibm.com>
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Julian:

Would you please clarify your answer to issue 2 below:

Do you mean the target should simply disconnect in all cases of a PDU
received during Login Phase that is not a Login Request PDU, or only
when the first PDU received during Login Phase is not a Login Request?

If the answer is "all cases", then there would appear to be no need
for the Login Response Status code 0x020b "Invalid Request type during
Login" and it should be removed to avoid further confusion.

I believe disconnect is fully justified when the first PDU in Login
Phase is not a Login Request, for both security and implementation
reasons, as stated in a posting by Eddy Quicksall.  However, after the
first Login Request PDU has been successfully received, the Login Phase
has clearly begun and it seems to me easier then to deal with all errors
on the target side, including reception of a non-Login Request PDU, in the
same manner, which is to send back a Login-Reject with the appropriate
status code and then close the connection.  I believe this is why the
0x020b Status code was introduced, and could anticipate the usefulness
of having this if, for example, the initiator concludes Login Phase
and begins sending FFP PDUs, but for whatever reason the target has not
concluded Login Phase and continues to expect to receive only Login
Request PDUs.

Thank you,

Bob Russell


> 2. The last paragraph of section 2.2.3 says:
>
>    "Before the Full Feature Phase is established, only Login Request and
>    Login Response PDUs are allowed. Any other PDU, when received at ini-
>    tiator or target, is a protocol error and MUST result in the connec-
>    tion being terminated. ..."
>
>    The question is the following:  is this rule literally true for the
>    target (i.e., can the target disconnect as soon as it receives a
>    non-Login PDU from the initiator) or does the target have to first
>    send a Login Response with Login reject PDU before disconnecting, as
>    it does for all other errors detected by the target during Login
>    Phase (according to section 4.3.1)?
>
>    A related question is: does the target take the same action when
>    the very first PDU it receives on a new TCP connection is not a
>    Login Request PDU?
>
>    If the target has to send the Login reject PDU before disconnecting,
>    then the last paragraph of section 2.2.3 should be reworded along
>    the following lines (modeled after the last paragraph of section 4.3):
>
>    "Before the Full Feature Phase is established, only Login Request
>    and Login Response PDUs are allowed.  If the target receives any PDU
>    other than Login Request, it must send a Login reject (code 0x020b)
>    and then disconnect.  If the initiator receives any PDU other than
>    Login Response, it MUST drop the connection. ..."
>
>    This wording would also appear to cover the case of when the very first
>    PDU a target receives on a new TCP connection is not a Login Request.
> +++ I would suggest sticking with disconnecting. +++
>


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Thu Aug  1 11:36:22 2002
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From: Black_David@emc.com
To: Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues
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Julian,
 
I think we need to do something here, as there are clearly
situations in which the residual count is important for commands that
complete with other than good status, making the "other point of
view" reported by Robert Russell incorrect.  Waiting for SPC-3 to
do something to clarify this isn't going to do much for iSCSI
interoperability in the short term.  Since Bob Snively was the
Technical Editor of FCP-2, he tends to be correct about what FCP-2
requires or intends - I suggest we follow FCP-2, and say that the
O/o/U/u bits are valid in all cases (of course, if none of them
are set, the Residual Count field is not valid).
 
Thanks,
--David
---------------------------------------------------
David L. Black, Senior Technologist
EMC Corporation, 42 South St., Hopkinton, MA  01748
+1 (508) 249-6449            FAX: +1 (508) 497-8018
black_david@emc.com       Mobile: +1 (978) 394-7754
---------------------------------------------------


-----Original Message-----
From: Julian Satran [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 3:26 AM
To: Santosh Rao
Cc: IPS Reflector; rdr@io.iol.unh.edu; Robert Snively;
santoshr@hpcuhe.cup.hp.com; T10 Reflector
Subject: Re: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues



Santosh, 

I think that this behaviour should be specified by SPC3. I looked (again)
into the FCP docs and like iSCSI they do not say anything beyond 
iSCSI says. Like iSCSI they specify that the field is valid when the Oo/Uu
bits are set but nothing about how those bits relate to status. 
SPC says nothing about that either  (beyond that the bits set are not
necessarily an indication of error). 

Julo 



	Santosh Rao <santoshr@cup.hp.com> 
Sent by: santoshr@hpcuhe.cup.hp.com 


08/01/2002 03:44 AM 


        
        To:        IPS Reflector <ips@ece.cmu.edu>, Julian
Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL, rdr@io.iol.unh.edu 
        cc:        Robert Snively <rsnively@brocade.com>, T10 Reflector
<t10@t10.org> 
        Subject:        Re: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues 

       


Julian & Robert [Russell],

I raised the same query regarding RESID for FCP/FCP-2 this time last
year. The response I got for FCP/FCP-2 was that RESID information shall
be valid, regardless of the scsi status returned. The RESID field, can
be checked by the scsi transport drivers independent of the SCSI STATUS.

I have enclosed the T10 response from Rob Snivelly below on that issue.
As per FC-PLDA, the RESID information is valid, regardless of the scsi
status returned by the device. 

An example of this is the case of "NO SENSE" or "RECOVERED ERROR" check
condition, when the data transfer may have taken place and a CHECK
CONDITION is returned. Also, for other CHECK CONDITION status', partial
data transfer may have taken place and hence, resid information should
be present.

It would be good to maintain consistent behaviour across the scsi
transports in this regard, since protocol bridging from iscsi to FCP
domain would expect RESID information in the FCP domain, regardless of
scsi status.

This also allows scsi transports to remain free of SCSI command set
details. (ex : the scsi transport drivers do not need to parse for CHECK
CONDITION or GOO status information.)

Thanks,
Santosh


-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues
Date:    Thu, 1 Aug 2002 02:52:19 +0300
From:   "Julian Satran" <Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com>
To:     "Robert D. Russell" <rdr@io.iol.unh.edu>
CC:     ips@ece.cmu.edu

Bob, 

Thanks - some comments in text. Julo 


 "Robert D. Russell" <rdr@io.iol.unh.edu> 
                                           
Julian:

Four issues came up today at the iSCSI plugfest:

1. A question about whether or not the Residual Count field and the
 appropriate O and U bits need to be computed on all SCSI Response
 PDUs, regardless of the values in the Status and/or Response fields.

 One point of view says that the Residual Count field and the O and U
 bits appear to be strictly iSCSI values that are derived by the
 iSCSI target layer from the ExpectedDataTransferLength field of the
 SCSI Command PDU and the DataSegmentLength fields of the DataIn or
 DataOut PDUs sent as part of this command.  Therefore ,the iSCSI
 target always computes a Residual Count value without regard to the
 Status and/or Response fields, since these are SCSI values.

 The other point of view says that the Residual Count field, and the
 O and U bits, need only be set when the Status and Response fields
 indicate that the command was completed at the target with a GOOD
 Status, and the target does not have to compute or set the Residual
 Count field and the O or U bits for other values of the Status and/or
 Response fields.

 Which is it?  In any case, could this be clarified somewhere in the
 standard, most likely in section 9.4.4.

+++ Residual count fields are in fact carrioed over from the SCSI layer.
I know that none of the SCSI docs specifies
exactly their behavior and it strikes me as a bad idea to have protocols
specify them. 
The values should be valid any time the target decides to put them in. 
+++


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: RE: FCP_RSP Residual Checking.
Date:    Thu, 5 Jul 2001 13:18:42 -0700
From:    Robert Snively <rsnively@brocade.com>
To:      "'Santosh Rao'" <santoshr@cup.hp.com>, 
        T10 Reflector <t10@t10.org>, 
        Fibre Channel T11 reflector <fc@network.com>

Robert Snively wrote:
> 
> >  Is the target required to initialize the fields FCP_RESID_UNDER,
> >  FCP_RESID_OVER & FCP_RESID when any I/O is completed
> >  without the data phase having transferred exactly
> >  FCP_DL bytes, regardless of the SCSI Status being returned ?
> 
> >  When the target generates a CHECK CONDITION on an I/O
> >  and may have returned less than FCP_DL bytes in the data
> >  phase for that I/O, is it
> >  required to set the FCP_RESID_UNDER to 1 and indicate the number of
> >  bytes not transferred in the FCP_RESID field?
> 
> The intent is that the answer to your second question is:
> FCP_RESID should appropriately regardless of the SCSI Status
> being returned.  The classic errors of that class are those
> involving successful completion with reporting, like
> the "NO SENSE" and "RECOVERED ERROR" series of errors.
> 
> >
> >  What is the behaviour initiators can expect under the above
> >  condition ?
> 
> The intent is that there be no conflict.  I believe that FCP-2
> was a bit less bald than FC-PLDA in stating the requirement.
> 
> >  Is there a conflict in the behaviours described by FCP/FCP-2
> >  & FC-PLDA ?
> >
> 
> Bob Snively                        e-mail:    rsnively@brocade.com
> Brocade Communications Systems     phone:  408 487 8135
> 1745 Technology Drive
> San Jose, CA 95110
> 
> >  -----Original Message-----
> >  From: Santosh Rao [mailto:santoshr@cup.hp.com]
> >  Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 12:15 PM
> >  To: T10 Reflector; Fibre Channel T11 reflector
> >  Subject: FCP_RSP Residual Checking.
> >
> >
> >  All,
> >
> >  I've got a question on target behaviour while sending a
> >  CHECK CONDITION
> >  SCSI status in its FCP_RSP IU.
> >
> >  Is the target required to initialize the fields FCP_RESID_UNDER,
> >  FCP_RESID_OVER & FCP_RESID when any I/O is completed without the data
> >  phase having transferred exactly FCP_DL bytes, regardless of the SCSI
> >  Status being returned ?
> >
> >  When the target generates a CHECK CONDITION on an I/O and may have
> >  returned less than FCP_DL bytes in the data phase for that I/O, is it
> >  required to set the FCP_RESID_UNDER to 1 and indicate the number of
> >  bytes not transferred in the FCP_RESID field?
> >
> >  FC-PLDA Section 8.2.4.1 states that :
> >  "SCSI targets that transfer less than FCP_DL bytes during
> >  the FCP_DATA
> >  IUs shall set the FCP_RESID_UNDER to 1".
> >
> >  No exceptions are specified in the case of a CHECK CONDITION in the
> >  above definition, implying that FCP_RSP residual checking can be
> >  performed irrespective of the SCSI Status that was returned in the
> >  FCP_RSP.
> >
> >  However, the wording descriptions of FCP_RESID_UNDER,
> >  FCP_RESID_OVER &
> >  FCP_RESID in SCSI-FCP & FCP-2 are not as stringent as
> >  FC-PLDA and do not
> >  mandate that FCP_RESID_UNDER shall be set when the data
> >  transferred is <
> >  FCP_DL.
> >
> >  What is the behaviour initiators can expect under the above
> >  condition ?
> >  Is there a conflict in the behaviours described by FCP/FCP-2
> >  & FC-PLDA ?
> >
> >  Thanks,
> >  Santosh Rao
> >

-- 
Education is when you read the fine print. 
Experience is what you get if you don't.





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<DIV><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN 
class=666584614-01082002>Julian,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN 
class=666584614-01082002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN class=666584614-01082002>I 
think&nbsp;we need to do something here, as there are 
clearly</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN class=666584614-01082002>situations 
in which the residual count is&nbsp;important for commands 
that</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN class=666584614-01082002>complete 
with other than good status, making the "other point of</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN class=666584614-01082002>view" 
reported by Robert Russell incorrect.&nbsp; Waiting for SPC-3 
to</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN class=666584614-01082002>do 
</SPAN></FONT><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN 
class=666584614-01082002>something to clarify this isn't going to do much for 
iSCSI</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN 
class=666584614-01082002>interoperability in the short term.&nbsp; Since Bob 
Snively was the</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN class=666584614-01082002>Technical 
</SPAN></FONT><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN 
class=666584614-01082002>Editor of FCP-2, he tends to be correct about what 
FCP-2</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN class=666584614-01082002>requires 
</SPAN></FONT><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN class=666584614-01082002>or 
intends - I suggest we follow FCP-2, and say that the</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN class=666584614-01082002>O/o/U/u bits 
are valid in all cases (of course, if none of them</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN class=666584614-01082002>are 
set,&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN 
class=666584614-01082002>the Residual Count field is not 
valid).</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN 
class=666584614-01082002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN 
class=666584614-01082002>Thanks,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN 
class=666584614-01082002>--David</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN class=666584614-01082002>
<P><FONT size=2>---------------------------------------------------<BR>David L. 
Black, Senior Technologist<BR>EMC Corporation, 42 South St., Hopkinton, MA&nbsp; 
01748<BR>+1 (508) 
249-6449&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; FAX: 
+1 (508) 497-8018<BR>black_david@emc.com&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
Mobile: +1 (978) 
394-7754<BR>---------------------------------------------------<BR></FONT></P></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE 
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
  <DIV align=left class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr><FONT face=Tahoma 
  size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Julian Satran 
  [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, August 01, 2002 
  3:26 AM<BR><B>To:</B> Santosh Rao<BR><B>Cc:</B> IPS Reflector; 
  rdr@io.iol.unh.edu; Robert Snively; santoshr@hpcuhe.cup.hp.com; T10 
  Reflector<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: iSCSI: plugfest4 
  issues<BR><BR></DIV></FONT><BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>Santosh,</FONT> 
  <BR><BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>I think that this behaviour should be 
  specified by SPC3. I looked (again) into the FCP docs and like iSCSI they do 
  not say anything beyond</FONT> <BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>iSCSI says. 
  Like iSCSI they specify that the field is valid when the Oo/Uu bits are set 
  but nothing about how those bits relate to status.</FONT> <BR><FONT 
  face=sans-serif size=2>SPC says nothing about that either &nbsp;(beyond that 
  the bits set are not necessarily an indication of error). </FONT><BR><BR><FONT 
  face=sans-serif size=2>Julo</FONT> <BR><BR><BR>
  <TABLE width="100%">
    <TBODY>
    <TR vAlign=top>
      <TD>
      <TD><FONT face=sans-serif size=1><B>Santosh Rao 
        &lt;santoshr@cup.hp.com&gt;</B></FONT> <BR><FONT face=sans-serif 
        size=1>Sent by: santoshr@hpcuhe.cup.hp.com</FONT> 
        <P><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>08/01/2002 03:44 AM</FONT> <BR></P>
      <TD><FONT face=Arial size=1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </FONT><BR><FONT 
        face=sans-serif size=1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; To: &nbsp; &nbsp; 
        &nbsp; &nbsp;IPS Reflector &lt;ips@ece.cmu.edu&gt;, Julian 
        Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL, rdr@io.iol.unh.edu</FONT> <BR><FONT 
        face=sans-serif size=1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; 
        &nbsp; &nbsp;Robert Snively &lt;rsnively@brocade.com&gt;, T10 Reflector 
        &lt;t10@t10.org&gt;</FONT> <BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>&nbsp; 
        &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Re: iSCSI: 
        plugfest4 issues</FONT> <BR><BR><FONT face=Arial size=1>&nbsp; &nbsp; 
        &nbsp; &nbsp;</FONT></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR><BR><FONT face="Courier New" 
  size=2>Julian &amp; Robert [Russell],<BR><BR>I raised the same query regarding 
  RESID for FCP/FCP-2 this time last<BR>year. The response I got for FCP/FCP-2 
  was that RESID information shall<BR>be valid, regardless of the scsi status 
  returned. The RESID field, can<BR>be checked by the scsi transport drivers 
  independent of the SCSI STATUS.<BR><BR>I have enclosed the T10 response from 
  Rob Snivelly below on that issue.<BR>As per FC-PLDA, the RESID information is 
  valid, regardless of the scsi<BR>status returned by the device. <BR><BR>An 
  example of this is the case of "NO SENSE" or "RECOVERED ERROR" 
  check<BR>condition, when the data transfer may have taken place and a 
  CHECK<BR>CONDITION is returned. Also, for other CHECK CONDITION status', 
  partial<BR>data transfer may have taken place and hence, resid information 
  should<BR>be present.<BR><BR>It would be good to maintain consistent behaviour 
  across the scsi<BR>transports in this regard, since protocol bridging from 
  iscsi to FCP<BR>domain would expect RESID information in the FCP domain, 
  regardless of<BR>scsi status.<BR><BR>This also allows scsi transports to 
  remain free of SCSI command set<BR>details. (ex : the scsi transport drivers 
  do not need to parse for CHECK<BR>CONDITION or GOO status 
  information.)<BR><BR>Thanks,<BR>Santosh<BR><BR><BR>-------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Subject: 
  Re: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues<BR>Date: &nbsp; &nbsp;Thu, 1 Aug 2002 02:52:19 
  +0300<BR>From: &nbsp; "Julian Satran" &lt;Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com&gt;<BR>To: 
  &nbsp; &nbsp; "Robert D. Russell" &lt;rdr@io.iol.unh.edu&gt;<BR>CC: &nbsp; 
  &nbsp; ips@ece.cmu.edu<BR><BR>Bob, <BR><BR>Thanks - some comments in text. 
  Julo <BR><BR><BR>&nbsp;"Robert D. Russell" &lt;rdr@io.iol.unh.edu&gt; 
  <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 
  &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 
  &nbsp;<BR>Julian:<BR><BR>Four issues came up today at the iSCSI 
  plugfest:<BR><BR>1. A question about whether or not the Residual Count field 
  and the<BR>&nbsp;appropriate O and U bits need to be computed on all SCSI 
  Response<BR>&nbsp;PDUs, regardless of the values in the Status and/or Response 
  fields.<BR><BR>&nbsp;One point of view says that the Residual Count field and 
  the O and U<BR>&nbsp;bits appear to be strictly iSCSI values that are derived 
  by the<BR>&nbsp;iSCSI target layer from the ExpectedDataTransferLength field 
  of the<BR>&nbsp;SCSI Command PDU and the DataSegmentLength fields of the 
  DataIn or<BR>&nbsp;DataOut PDUs sent as part of this command. &nbsp;Therefore 
  ,the iSCSI<BR>&nbsp;target always computes a Residual Count value without 
  regard to the<BR>&nbsp;Status and/or Response fields, since these are SCSI 
  values.<BR><BR>&nbsp;The other point of view says that the Residual Count 
  field, and the<BR>&nbsp;O and U bits, need only be set when the Status and 
  Response fields<BR>&nbsp;indicate that the command was completed at the target 
  with a GOOD<BR>&nbsp;Status, and the target does not have to compute or set 
  the Residual<BR>&nbsp;Count field and the O or U bits for other values of the 
  Status and/or<BR>&nbsp;Response fields.<BR><BR>&nbsp;Which is it? &nbsp;In any 
  case, could this be clarified somewhere in the<BR>&nbsp;standard, most likely 
  in section 9.4.4.<BR><BR>+++ Residual count fields are in fact carrioed over 
  from the SCSI layer.<BR>I know that none of the SCSI docs specifies<BR>exactly 
  their behavior and it strikes me as a bad idea to have protocols<BR>specify 
  them. <BR>The values should be valid any time the target decides to put them 
  in. <BR>+++<BR></FONT><BR><FONT face="Courier New" 
  size=2><BR>-------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>Subject: 
  RE: FCP_RSP Residual Checking.<BR>Date: &nbsp; &nbsp;Thu, 5 Jul 2001 13:18:42 
  -0700<BR>From: &nbsp; &nbsp;Robert Snively &lt;rsnively@brocade.com&gt;<BR>To: 
  &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;"'Santosh Rao'" &lt;santoshr@cup.hp.com&gt;, <BR>&nbsp; 
  &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; T10 Reflector &lt;t10@t10.org&gt;, <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; 
  &nbsp; &nbsp; Fibre Channel T11 reflector &lt;fc@network.com&gt;<BR><BR>Robert 
  Snively wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;Is the target required to 
  initialize the fields FCP_RESID_UNDER,<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;FCP_RESID_OVER &amp; 
  FCP_RESID when any I/O is completed<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;without the data phase 
  having transferred exactly<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;FCP_DL bytes, regardless of the 
  SCSI Status being returned ?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;When the target 
  generates a CHECK CONDITION on an I/O<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;and may have returned 
  less than FCP_DL bytes in the data<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;phase for that I/O, is 
  it<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;required to set the FCP_RESID_UNDER to 1 and indicate 
  the number of<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;bytes not transferred in the FCP_RESID 
  field?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; The intent is that the answer to your second question 
  is:<BR>&gt; FCP_RESID should appropriately regardless of the SCSI 
  Status<BR>&gt; being returned. &nbsp;The classic errors of that class are 
  those<BR>&gt; involving successful completion with reporting, like<BR>&gt; the 
  "NO SENSE" and "RECOVERED ERROR" series of errors.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; 
  &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;What is the behaviour initiators can expect under the 
  above<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;condition ?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; The intent is that there 
  be no conflict. &nbsp;I believe that FCP-2<BR>&gt; was a bit less bald than 
  FC-PLDA in stating the requirement.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;Is there a 
  conflict in the behaviours described by FCP/FCP-2<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;&amp; 
  FC-PLDA ?<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Bob Snively &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 
  &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;e-mail: &nbsp; 
  &nbsp;rsnively@brocade.com<BR>&gt; Brocade Communications Systems &nbsp; 
  &nbsp; phone: &nbsp;408 487 8135<BR>&gt; 1745 Technology Drive<BR>&gt; San 
  Jose, CA 95110<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;-----Original Message-----<BR>&gt; 
  &gt; &nbsp;From: Santosh Rao [mailto:santoshr@cup.hp.com]<BR>&gt; &gt; 
  &nbsp;Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 12:15 PM<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;To: T10 
  Reflector; Fibre Channel T11 reflector<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;Subject: FCP_RSP 
  Residual Checking.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;All,<BR>&gt; 
  &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;I've got a question on target behaviour while sending 
  a<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;CHECK CONDITION<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;SCSI status in its 
  FCP_RSP IU.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;Is the target required to 
  initialize the fields FCP_RESID_UNDER,<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;FCP_RESID_OVER &amp; 
  FCP_RESID when any I/O is completed without the data<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;phase 
  having transferred exactly FCP_DL bytes, regardless of the SCSI<BR>&gt; &gt; 
  &nbsp;Status being returned ?<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;When the target 
  generates a CHECK CONDITION on an I/O and may have<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;returned 
  less than FCP_DL bytes in the data phase for that I/O, is it<BR>&gt; &gt; 
  &nbsp;required to set the FCP_RESID_UNDER to 1 and indicate the number 
  of<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;bytes not transferred in the FCP_RESID field?<BR>&gt; 
  &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;FC-PLDA Section 8.2.4.1 states that :<BR>&gt; &gt; 
  &nbsp;"SCSI targets that transfer less than FCP_DL bytes during<BR>&gt; &gt; 
  &nbsp;the FCP_DATA<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;IUs shall set the FCP_RESID_UNDER to 
  1".<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;No exceptions are specified in the case of 
  a CHECK CONDITION in the<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;above definition, implying that 
  FCP_RSP residual checking can be<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;performed irrespective of 
  the SCSI Status that was returned in the<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;FCP_RSP.<BR>&gt; 
  &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;However, the wording descriptions of 
  FCP_RESID_UNDER,<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;FCP_RESID_OVER &amp;<BR>&gt; &gt; 
  &nbsp;FCP_RESID in SCSI-FCP &amp; FCP-2 are not as stringent as<BR>&gt; &gt; 
  &nbsp;FC-PLDA and do not<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;mandate that FCP_RESID_UNDER shall 
  be set when the data<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;transferred is &lt;<BR>&gt; &gt; 
  &nbsp;FCP_DL.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;What is the behaviour initiators 
  can expect under the above<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;condition ?<BR>&gt; &gt; 
  &nbsp;Is there a conflict in the behaviours described by FCP/FCP-2<BR>&gt; 
  &gt; &nbsp;&amp; FC-PLDA ?<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;Thanks,<BR>&gt; 
  &gt; &nbsp;Santosh Rao<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR><BR>-- <BR>Education is when you read 
  the fine print. <BR>Experience is what you get if you 
don't.<BR></FONT><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 10:11:48 -0700
From: Santosh Rao <santoshr@cup.hp.com>
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Subject: Re: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues
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Julian,

I agree with you that the wording should be sufficient as called out in
Section 9.4 description of the bits and the resid field.

However, in observance of the fact that non-interopability has been
noticed in this area, it may help to tighten the wording for the
description of the o/O and u/U bits in the "SCSI Response" description
in Section 9.4. Perhaps, the use of "MUST" directive when calling out
the condition for the u/U/o/O bits to be set would help.

Also, In Section 9.4.4, instead of :
"The Residual Count field is only valid in the case where either the U
bit or the O bit is set."

I suggest :
"The Residual Count field MUST be valid when either the U or the O bit
is set".

Similar wording for the Bi-di read residual count.

Thanks,
Santosh


Julian Satran wrote:
> 
> Santosh,
> 
> I think that this behaviour should be specified by SPC3. I looked
> (again) into the FCP docs and like iSCSI they do not say anything
> beyond
> iSCSI says. Like iSCSI they specify that the field is valid when the
> Oo/Uu bits are set but nothing about how those bits relate to status.
> SPC says nothing about that either  (beyond that the bits set are not
> necessarily an indication of error).
> 
> Julo
> 
>  Santosh Rao
>  <santoshr@cup.hp.com>                     To:        IPS Reflector
>  Sent by:                          <ips@ece.cmu.edu>, Julian
>  santoshr@hpcuhe.cup.hp.com        Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL,
>                                    rdr@io.iol.unh.edu
>  08/01/2002 03:44 AM                       cc:        Robert Snively
>                                    <rsnively@brocade.com>, T10
>                                    Reflector <t10@t10.org>
>                                            Subject:        Re: iSCSI:
>                                    plugfest4 issues
> 
> 
> 
> Julian & Robert [Russell],
> 
> I raised the same query regarding RESID for FCP/FCP-2 this time last
> year. The response I got for FCP/FCP-2 was that RESID information
> shall
> be valid, regardless of the scsi status returned. The RESID field, can
> be checked by the scsi transport drivers independent of the SCSI
> STATUS.
> 
> I have enclosed the T10 response from Rob Snivelly below on that
> issue.
> As per FC-PLDA, the RESID information is valid, regardless of the scsi
> status returned by the device.
> 
> An example of this is the case of "NO SENSE" or "RECOVERED ERROR"
> check
> condition, when the data transfer may have taken place and a CHECK
> CONDITION is returned. Also, for other CHECK CONDITION status',
> partial
> data transfer may have taken place and hence, resid information should
> be present.
> 
> It would be good to maintain consistent behaviour across the scsi
> transports in this regard, since protocol bridging from iscsi to FCP
> domain would expect RESID information in the FCP domain, regardless of
> scsi status.
> 
> This also allows scsi transports to remain free of SCSI command set
> details. (ex : the scsi transport drivers do not need to parse for
> CHECK
> CONDITION or GOO status information.)
> 
> Thanks,
> Santosh
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Subject: Re: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues
> Date:    Thu, 1 Aug 2002 02:52:19 +0300
> From:   "Julian Satran" <Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com>
> To:     "Robert D. Russell" <rdr@io.iol.unh.edu>
> CC:     ips@ece.cmu.edu
> 
> Bob,
> 
> Thanks - some comments in text. Julo
> 
>  "Robert D. Russell" <rdr@io.iol.unh.edu>
> 
> Julian:
> 
> Four issues came up today at the iSCSI plugfest:
> 
> 1. A question about whether or not the Residual Count field and the
>  appropriate O and U bits need to be computed on all SCSI Response
>  PDUs, regardless of the values in the Status and/or Response fields.
> 
>  One point of view says that the Residual Count field and the O and U
>  bits appear to be strictly iSCSI values that are derived by the
>  iSCSI target layer from the ExpectedDataTransferLength field of the
>  SCSI Command PDU and the DataSegmentLength fields of the DataIn or
>  DataOut PDUs sent as part of this command.  Therefore ,the iSCSI
>  target always computes a Residual Count value without regard to the
>  Status and/or Response fields, since these are SCSI values.
> 
>  The other point of view says that the Residual Count field, and the
>  O and U bits, need only be set when the Status and Response fields
>  indicate that the command was completed at the target with a GOOD
>  Status, and the target does not have to compute or set the Residual
>  Count field and the O or U bits for other values of the Status and/or
>  Response fields.
> 
>  Which is it?  In any case, could this be clarified somewhere in the
>  standard, most likely in section 9.4.4.
> 
> +++ Residual count fields are in fact carrioed over from the SCSI
> layer.
> I know that none of the SCSI docs specifies
> exactly their behavior and it strikes me as a bad idea to have
> protocols
> specify them.
> The values should be valid any time the target decides to put them in.
> 
> +++
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Subject: RE: FCP_RSP Residual Checking.
> Date:    Thu, 5 Jul 2001 13:18:42 -0700
> From:    Robert Snively <rsnively@brocade.com>
> To:      "'Santosh Rao'" <santoshr@cup.hp.com>,
>         T10 Reflector <t10@t10.org>,
>         Fibre Channel T11 reflector <fc@network.com>
> 
> Robert Snively wrote:
> >
> > >  Is the target required to initialize the fields FCP_RESID_UNDER,
> > >  FCP_RESID_OVER & FCP_RESID when any I/O is completed
> > >  without the data phase having transferred exactly
> > >  FCP_DL bytes, regardless of the SCSI Status being returned ?
> >
> > >  When the target generates a CHECK CONDITION on an I/O
> > >  and may have returned less than FCP_DL bytes in the data
> > >  phase for that I/O, is it
> > >  required to set the FCP_RESID_UNDER to 1 and indicate the number
> of
> > >  bytes not transferred in the FCP_RESID field?
> >
> > The intent is that the answer to your second question is:
> > FCP_RESID should appropriately regardless of the SCSI Status
> > being returned.  The classic errors of that class are those
> > involving successful completion with reporting, like
> > the "NO SENSE" and "RECOVERED ERROR" series of errors.
> >
> > >
> > >  What is the behaviour initiators can expect under the above
> > >  condition ?
> >
> > The intent is that there be no conflict.  I believe that FCP-2
> > was a bit less bald than FC-PLDA in stating the requirement.
> >
> > >  Is there a conflict in the behaviours described by FCP/FCP-2
> > >  & FC-PLDA ?
> > >
> >
> > Bob Snively                        e-mail:    rsnively@brocade.com
> > Brocade Communications Systems     phone:  408 487 8135
> > 1745 Technology Drive
> > San Jose, CA 95110
> >
> > >  -----Original Message-----
> > >  From: Santosh Rao [mailto:santoshr@cup.hp.com]
> > >  Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 12:15 PM
> > >  To: T10 Reflector; Fibre Channel T11 reflector
> > >  Subject: FCP_RSP Residual Checking.
> > >
> > >
> > >  All,
> > >
> > >  I've got a question on target behaviour while sending a
> > >  CHECK CONDITION
> > >  SCSI status in its FCP_RSP IU.
> > >
> > >  Is the target required to initialize the fields FCP_RESID_UNDER,
> > >  FCP_RESID_OVER & FCP_RESID when any I/O is completed without the
> data
> > >  phase having transferred exactly FCP_DL bytes, regardless of the
> SCSI
> > >  Status being returned ?
> > >
> > >  When the target generates a CHECK CONDITION on an I/O and may
> have
> > >  returned less than FCP_DL bytes in the data phase for that I/O,
> is it
> > >  required to set the FCP_RESID_UNDER to 1 and indicate the number
> of
> > >  bytes not transferred in the FCP_RESID field?
> > >
> > >  FC-PLDA Section 8.2.4.1 states that :
> > >  "SCSI targets that transfer less than FCP_DL bytes during
> > >  the FCP_DATA
> > >  IUs shall set the FCP_RESID_UNDER to 1".
> > >
> > >  No exceptions are specified in the case of a CHECK CONDITION in
> the
> > >  above definition, implying that FCP_RSP residual checking can be
> > >  performed irrespective of the SCSI Status that was returned in
> the
> > >  FCP_RSP.
> > >
> > >  However, the wording descriptions of FCP_RESID_UNDER,
> > >  FCP_RESID_OVER &
> > >  FCP_RESID in SCSI-FCP & FCP-2 are not as stringent as
> > >  FC-PLDA and do not
> > >  mandate that FCP_RESID_UNDER shall be set when the data
> > >  transferred is <
> > >  FCP_DL.
> > >
> > >  What is the behaviour initiators can expect under the above
> > >  condition ?
> > >  Is there a conflict in the behaviours described by FCP/FCP-2
> > >  & FC-PLDA ?
> > >
> > >  Thanks,
> > >  Santosh Rao
> > >
> 
> --
> Education is when you read the fine print.
> Experience is what you get if you don't.

-- 
Finish each day and be done with it.  You have done what you could;
Some blunders and absurdities have crept in; Forget them as soon as you
can.
Tomorrow is a new day; You shall begin it serenely and with too high a
spirit 
to be encumbered with your old nonsense.


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Thu Aug  1 20:38:08 2002
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From: "Robert D. Russell" <rdr@io.iol.unh.edu>
To: Julian Satran <Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com>, <ips@ece.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues
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Julian:

Only one minor issue came up today, Thursday, 1-August-2002, at the
iSCSI plugfest.


1. According to the change log for draft 11 (which, of course, is
   not part of the official draft), the TTT field was added to the
   Data-In PDU to carry information when the A bit is 1.  However,
   the way the standard is currently written, section 9.7.3 requires
   a valid Target Transfer Tag when the A bit is 1, but says nothing
   about its value when the A bit is 0, which implies that it may be
   valid but does not have to be valid.

   The question is, what use is a valid TTT in a Data-In PDU when
   the A bit is 0?  No reply is ever expected from the initiator
   in this case (because the A bit is 0), so the initiator can
   never use this TTT value in any future PDU.

   Perhaps the first sentence of the second paragraph of section
   9.7.3 should be modified to read:

   "On incoming data, the Target Transfer Tag MUST be provided by the
   target if the A bit is set to 1 and MUST be reserved otherwise."

Thank you for your consideration.


Bob Russell
InterOperability Lab
University of New Hampshire
rdr@iol.unh.edu
603-862-3774


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Subject: Re: iSCSI-clarification on TargetAddress and TargetName usage
To: "Dean Scoville" <dean.scoville@qlogic.com>
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu, owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
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Comments in text. Thanks, Julo


                                                                                                                                            
                      "Dean Scoville"                                                                                                       
                      <dean.scoville@ql        To:       <ips@ece.cmu.edu>                                                                  
                      ogic.com>                cc:                                                                                          
                      Sent by:                 Subject:  clarification on TargetAddress and TargetName usage                                
                      owner-ips@ece.cmu                                                                                                     
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Julian,
I would like clarification on when the "TargetAddress" and
"TargetName" keys can be sent by the target:

Section 10 of the spec lists the keys that can be sent during
SecurityNegotiation stage, and states that all other keys
MUST NOT be used... "TargetAddress"  does not appear in
the list, but section 11.8 shows "TargetAddress" usage as
"Any-Stage". If I understand correctly, the target must send its
address when returning a redirect status, and this can occur during
SecurityNegotiation stage. If this is true, could you please
add "TargetAddress" to the list of acceptable keys in section 10.
+++ will add +++
Section 11.4 states "The TargetName key may also be returned
by the 'SendTargets' text request (which is the only use when
issued by a target)." If I interpret this correctly, it means that the
target can only send the "TargetName" key in response to a
SendTargets request-- which only occurs during full feature phase.
But section 11.4 also states the key's usage as "ALL by target".
Should the usage be changed to "FFPO by target", or are there
other cases besides a 'SendTargets' response when the target
is allowed to send this key?
regards,
+++ It has been rephrased +++
Dean Scoville
dean.scoville@qlogic.com






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To: "Robert D. Russell" <rdr@io.iol.unh.edu>
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu, owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
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Subject: Re: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues
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Bob,

Yes disconect is justified if the first reguest is not Login. 

I will add to 2.2.3

A target receiving any PDU except a Login request before the Login phase 
is started MUST immediately terminate the connection on which the PDU was 
received.

Julo




"Robert D. Russell" <rdr@io.iol.unh.edu>
Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
08/01/2002 04:12 PM

 
        To:     Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL, <ips@ece.cmu.edu>
        cc: 
        Subject:        Re: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues

 

Julian:

Would you please clarify your answer to issue 2 below:

Do you mean the target should simply disconnect in all cases of a PDU
received during Login Phase that is not a Login Request PDU, or only
when the first PDU received during Login Phase is not a Login Request?

If the answer is "all cases", then there would appear to be no need
for the Login Response Status code 0x020b "Invalid Request type during
Login" and it should be removed to avoid further confusion.

I believe disconnect is fully justified when the first PDU in Login
Phase is not a Login Request, for both security and implementation
reasons, as stated in a posting by Eddy Quicksall.  However, after the
first Login Request PDU has been successfully received, the Login Phase
has clearly begun and it seems to me easier then to deal with all errors
on the target side, including reception of a non-Login Request PDU, in the
same manner, which is to send back a Login-Reject with the appropriate
status code and then close the connection.  I believe this is why the
0x020b Status code was introduced, and could anticipate the usefulness
of having this if, for example, the initiator concludes Login Phase
and begins sending FFP PDUs, but for whatever reason the target has not
concluded Login Phase and continues to expect to receive only Login
Request PDUs.

Thank you,

Bob Russell


> 2. The last paragraph of section 2.2.3 says:
>
>    "Before the Full Feature Phase is established, only Login Request and
>    Login Response PDUs are allowed. Any other PDU, when received at ini-
>    tiator or target, is a protocol error and MUST result in the connec-
>    tion being terminated. ..."
>
>    The question is the following:  is this rule literally true for the
>    target (i.e., can the target disconnect as soon as it receives a
>    non-Login PDU from the initiator) or does the target have to first
>    send a Login Response with Login reject PDU before disconnecting, as
>    it does for all other errors detected by the target during Login
>    Phase (according to section 4.3.1)?
>
>    A related question is: does the target take the same action when
>    the very first PDU it receives on a new TCP connection is not a
>    Login Request PDU?
>
>    If the target has to send the Login reject PDU before disconnecting,
>    then the last paragraph of section 2.2.3 should be reworded along
>    the following lines (modeled after the last paragraph of section 
4.3):
>
>    "Before the Full Feature Phase is established, only Login Request
>    and Login Response PDUs are allowed.  If the target receives any PDU
>    other than Login Request, it must send a Login reject (code 0x020b)
>    and then disconnect.  If the initiator receives any PDU other than
>    Login Response, it MUST drop the connection. ..."
>
>    This wording would also appear to cover the case of when the very 
first
>    PDU a target receives on a new TCP connection is not a Login Request.
> +++ I would suggest sticking with disconnecting. +++
>



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Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"


<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Bob,</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Yes disconect is justified if the first reguest is not Login. </font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">I will add to 2.2.3</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="Courier New">A target receiving any PDU except a Login request before the Login phase is started MUST immediately terminate the connection on which the PDU was received.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Julo</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>&quot;Robert D. Russell&quot; &lt;rdr@io.iol.unh.edu&gt;</b></font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu</font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">08/01/2002 04:12 PM</font>
<br>
<td><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL, &lt;ips@ece.cmu.edu&gt;</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Re: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues</font>
<br>
<br><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font></table>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">Julian:<br>
<br>
Would you please clarify your answer to issue 2 below:<br>
<br>
Do you mean the target should simply disconnect in all cases of a PDU<br>
received during Login Phase that is not a Login Request PDU, or only<br>
when the first PDU received during Login Phase is not a Login Request?<br>
<br>
If the answer is &quot;all cases&quot;, then there would appear to be no need<br>
for the Login Response Status code 0x020b &quot;Invalid Request type during<br>
Login&quot; and it should be removed to avoid further confusion.<br>
<br>
I believe disconnect is fully justified when the first PDU in Login<br>
Phase is not a Login Request, for both security and implementation<br>
reasons, as stated in a posting by Eddy Quicksall. &nbsp;However, after the<br>
first Login Request PDU has been successfully received, the Login Phase<br>
has clearly begun and it seems to me easier then to deal with all errors<br>
on the target side, including reception of a non-Login Request PDU, in the<br>
same manner, which is to send back a Login-Reject with the appropriate<br>
status code and then close the connection. &nbsp;I believe this is why the<br>
0x020b Status code was introduced, and could anticipate the usefulness<br>
of having this if, for example, the initiator concludes Login Phase<br>
and begins sending FFP PDUs, but for whatever reason the target has not<br>
concluded Login Phase and continues to expect to receive only Login<br>
Request PDUs.<br>
<br>
Thank you,<br>
<br>
Bob Russell<br>
<br>
<br>
&gt; 2. The last paragraph of section 2.2.3 says:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;&quot;Before the Full Feature Phase is established, only Login Request and<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;Login Response PDUs are allowed. Any other PDU, when received at ini-<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;tiator or target, is a protocol error and MUST result in the connec-<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;tion being terminated. ...&quot;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;The question is the following: &nbsp;is this rule literally true for the<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;target (i.e., can the target disconnect as soon as it receives a<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;non-Login PDU from the initiator) or does the target have to first<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;send a Login Response with Login reject PDU before disconnecting, as<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;it does for all other errors detected by the target during Login<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;Phase (according to section 4.3.1)?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;A related question is: does the target take the same action when<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;the very first PDU it receives on a new TCP connection is not a<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;Login Request PDU?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;If the target has to send the Login reject PDU before disconnecting,<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;then the last paragraph of section 2.2.3 should be reworded along<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;the following lines (modeled after the last paragraph of section 4.3):<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;&quot;Before the Full Feature Phase is established, only Login Request<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;and Login Response PDUs are allowed. &nbsp;If the target receives any PDU<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;other than Login Request, it must send a Login reject (code 0x020b)<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;and then disconnect. &nbsp;If the initiator receives any PDU other than<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;Login Response, it MUST drop the connection. ...&quot;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;This wording would also appear to cover the case of when the very first<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;PDU a target receives on a new TCP connection is not a Login Request.<br>
&gt; +++ I would suggest sticking with disconnecting. +++<br>
&gt;<br>
</font>
<br>
<br>
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From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Fri Aug  2 02:27:01 2002
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To: Black_David@emc.com
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: RE: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues
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David,

We DO EXACTLY what FCP did  - say nothing.
I went through the document - thetre is no relation mentioned and that is 
what we do too.

In any case we cannot enforce a SCSI behavior.
The expectation is obvious that if SCSI hands obver counts those will be 
carried by iSCSI.

I also suspect that the trouble may be deeper than we think and I find it 
much more prudent 
to say nothing (again as FCP did).

Julo





Black_David@emc.com
08/01/2002 05:56 PM

 
        To:     Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL
        cc:     ips@ece.cmu.edu
        Subject:        RE: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues

 

Julian,
 
I think we need to do something here, as there are clearly
situations in which the residual count is important for commands that
complete with other than good status, making the "other point of
view" reported by Robert Russell incorrect.  Waiting for SPC-3 to
do something to clarify this isn't going to do much for iSCSI
interoperability in the short term.  Since Bob Snively was the
Technical Editor of FCP-2, he tends to be correct about what FCP-2
requires or intends - I suggest we follow FCP-2, and say that the
O/o/U/u bits are valid in all cases (of course, if none of them
are set, the Residual Count field is not valid).
 
Thanks,
--David
---------------------------------------------------
David L. Black, Senior Technologist
EMC Corporation, 42 South St., Hopkinton, MA  01748
+1 (508) 249-6449            FAX: +1 (508) 497-8018
black_david@emc.com       Mobile: +1 (978) 394-7754
---------------------------------------------------
-----Original Message-----
From: Julian Satran [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 3:26 AM
To: Santosh Rao
Cc: IPS Reflector; rdr@io.iol.unh.edu; Robert Snively; 
santoshr@hpcuhe.cup.hp.com; T10 Reflector
Subject: Re: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues


Santosh, 

I think that this behaviour should be specified by SPC3. I looked (again) 
into the FCP docs and like iSCSI they do not say anything beyond 
iSCSI says. Like iSCSI they specify that the field is valid when the Oo/Uu 
bits are set but nothing about how those bits relate to status. 
SPC says nothing about that either  (beyond that the bits set are not 
necessarily an indication of error). 

Julo 



Santosh Rao <santoshr@cup.hp.com> 
Sent by: santoshr@hpcuhe.cup.hp.com 
08/01/2002 03:44 AM 
        
        To:        IPS Reflector <ips@ece.cmu.edu>, Julian 
Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL, rdr@io.iol.unh.edu 
        cc:        Robert Snively <rsnively@brocade.com>, T10 Reflector 
<t10@t10.org> 
        Subject:        Re: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues 

 


Julian & Robert [Russell],

I raised the same query regarding RESID for FCP/FCP-2 this time last
year. The response I got for FCP/FCP-2 was that RESID information shall
be valid, regardless of the scsi status returned. The RESID field, can
be checked by the scsi transport drivers independent of the SCSI STATUS.

I have enclosed the T10 response from Rob Snivelly below on that issue.
As per FC-PLDA, the RESID information is valid, regardless of the scsi
status returned by the device. 

An example of this is the case of "NO SENSE" or "RECOVERED ERROR" check
condition, when the data transfer may have taken place and a CHECK
CONDITION is returned. Also, for other CHECK CONDITION status', partial
data transfer may have taken place and hence, resid information should
be present.

It would be good to maintain consistent behaviour across the scsi
transports in this regard, since protocol bridging from iscsi to FCP
domain would expect RESID information in the FCP domain, regardless of
scsi status.

This also allows scsi transports to remain free of SCSI command set
details. (ex : the scsi transport drivers do not need to parse for CHECK
CONDITION or GOO status information.)

Thanks,
Santosh


-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues
Date:    Thu, 1 Aug 2002 02:52:19 +0300
From:   "Julian Satran" <Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com>
To:     "Robert D. Russell" <rdr@io.iol.unh.edu>
CC:     ips@ece.cmu.edu

Bob, 

Thanks - some comments in text. Julo 


 "Robert D. Russell" <rdr@io.iol.unh.edu> 
 
Julian:

Four issues came up today at the iSCSI plugfest:

1. A question about whether or not the Residual Count field and the
 appropriate O and U bits need to be computed on all SCSI Response
 PDUs, regardless of the values in the Status and/or Response fields.

 One point of view says that the Residual Count field and the O and U
 bits appear to be strictly iSCSI values that are derived by the
 iSCSI target layer from the ExpectedDataTransferLength field of the
 SCSI Command PDU and the DataSegmentLength fields of the DataIn or
 DataOut PDUs sent as part of this command.  Therefore ,the iSCSI
 target always computes a Residual Count value without regard to the
 Status and/or Response fields, since these are SCSI values.

 The other point of view says that the Residual Count field, and the
 O and U bits, need only be set when the Status and Response fields
 indicate that the command was completed at the target with a GOOD
 Status, and the target does not have to compute or set the Residual
 Count field and the O or U bits for other values of the Status and/or
 Response fields.

 Which is it?  In any case, could this be clarified somewhere in the
 standard, most likely in section 9.4.4.

+++ Residual count fields are in fact carrioed over from the SCSI layer.
I know that none of the SCSI docs specifies
exactly their behavior and it strikes me as a bad idea to have protocols
specify them. 
The values should be valid any time the target decides to put them in. 
+++


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: RE: FCP_RSP Residual Checking.
Date:    Thu, 5 Jul 2001 13:18:42 -0700
From:    Robert Snively <rsnively@brocade.com>
To:      "'Santosh Rao'" <santoshr@cup.hp.com>, 
        T10 Reflector <t10@t10.org>, 
        Fibre Channel T11 reflector <fc@network.com>

Robert Snively wrote:
> 
> >  Is the target required to initialize the fields FCP_RESID_UNDER,
> >  FCP_RESID_OVER & FCP_RESID when any I/O is completed
> >  without the data phase having transferred exactly
> >  FCP_DL bytes, regardless of the SCSI Status being returned ?
> 
> >  When the target generates a CHECK CONDITION on an I/O
> >  and may have returned less than FCP_DL bytes in the data
> >  phase for that I/O, is it
> >  required to set the FCP_RESID_UNDER to 1 and indicate the number of
> >  bytes not transferred in the FCP_RESID field?
> 
> The intent is that the answer to your second question is:
> FCP_RESID should appropriately regardless of the SCSI Status
> being returned.  The classic errors of that class are those
> involving successful completion with reporting, like
> the "NO SENSE" and "RECOVERED ERROR" series of errors.
> 
> >
> >  What is the behaviour initiators can expect under the above
> >  condition ?
> 
> The intent is that there be no conflict.  I believe that FCP-2
> was a bit less bald than FC-PLDA in stating the requirement.
> 
> >  Is there a conflict in the behaviours described by FCP/FCP-2
> >  & FC-PLDA ?
> >
> 
> Bob Snively                        e-mail:    rsnively@brocade.com
> Brocade Communications Systems     phone:  408 487 8135
> 1745 Technology Drive
> San Jose, CA 95110
> 
> >  -----Original Message-----
> >  From: Santosh Rao [mailto:santoshr@cup.hp.com]
> >  Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 12:15 PM
> >  To: T10 Reflector; Fibre Channel T11 reflector
> >  Subject: FCP_RSP Residual Checking.
> >
> >
> >  All,
> >
> >  I've got a question on target behaviour while sending a
> >  CHECK CONDITION
> >  SCSI status in its FCP_RSP IU.
> >
> >  Is the target required to initialize the fields FCP_RESID_UNDER,
> >  FCP_RESID_OVER & FCP_RESID when any I/O is completed without the data
> >  phase having transferred exactly FCP_DL bytes, regardless of the SCSI
> >  Status being returned ?
> >
> >  When the target generates a CHECK CONDITION on an I/O and may have
> >  returned less than FCP_DL bytes in the data phase for that I/O, is it
> >  required to set the FCP_RESID_UNDER to 1 and indicate the number of
> >  bytes not transferred in the FCP_RESID field?
> >
> >  FC-PLDA Section 8.2.4.1 states that :
> >  "SCSI targets that transfer less than FCP_DL bytes during
> >  the FCP_DATA
> >  IUs shall set the FCP_RESID_UNDER to 1".
> >
> >  No exceptions are specified in the case of a CHECK CONDITION in the
> >  above definition, implying that FCP_RSP residual checking can be
> >  performed irrespective of the SCSI Status that was returned in the
> >  FCP_RSP.
> >
> >  However, the wording descriptions of FCP_RESID_UNDER,
> >  FCP_RESID_OVER &
> >  FCP_RESID in SCSI-FCP & FCP-2 are not as stringent as
> >  FC-PLDA and do not
> >  mandate that FCP_RESID_UNDER shall be set when the data
> >  transferred is <
> >  FCP_DL.
> >
> >  What is the behaviour initiators can expect under the above
> >  condition ?
> >  Is there a conflict in the behaviours described by FCP/FCP-2
> >  & FC-PLDA ?
> >
> >  Thanks,
> >  Santosh Rao
> >

-- 
Education is when you read the fine print. 
Experience is what you get if you don't.




--=_alternative 001E29B3C2256C09_=
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"


<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">David,</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">We DO EXACTLY what FCP did &nbsp;- say nothing.</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">I went through the document - thetre is no relation mentioned and that is what we do too.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">In any case we cannot enforce a SCSI behavior.</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">The expectation is obvious that if SCSI hands obver counts those will be carried by iSCSI.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">I also suspect that the trouble may be deeper than we think and I find it much more prudent </font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">to say nothing (again as FCP did).</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Julo</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>Black_David@emc.com</b></font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">08/01/2002 05:56 PM</font>
<br>
<td><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;ips@ece.cmu.edu</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;RE: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues</font>
<br>
<br><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font></table>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">Julian,</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">I think we need to do something here, as there are clearly</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">situations in which the residual count is important for commands that</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">complete with other than good status, making the &quot;other point of</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">view&quot; reported by Robert Russell incorrect. &nbsp;Waiting for SPC-3 to</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">do something to clarify this isn't going to do much for iSCSI</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">interoperability in the short term. &nbsp;Since Bob Snively was the</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">Technical Editor of FCP-2, he tends to be correct about what FCP-2</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">requires or intends - I suggest we follow FCP-2, and say that the</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">O/o/U/u bits are valid in all cases (of course, if none of them</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">are set, the Residual Count field is not valid).</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">Thanks,</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">--David</font>
<p><font size=2 face="Courier New">---------------------------------------------------<br>
David L. Black, Senior Technologist<br>
EMC Corporation, 42 South St., Hopkinton, MA &nbsp;01748<br>
+1 (508) 249-6449 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;FAX: +1 (508) 497-8018<br>
black_david@emc.com &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Mobile: +1 (978) 394-7754<br>
---------------------------------------------------</font>
<p><font size=2 face="Tahoma">-----Original Message-----<b><br>
From:</b> Julian Satran [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]<b><br>
Sent:</b> Thursday, August 01, 2002 3:26 AM<b><br>
To:</b> Santosh Rao<b><br>
Cc:</b> IPS Reflector; rdr@io.iol.unh.edu; Robert Snively; santoshr@hpcuhe.cup.hp.com; T10 Reflector<b><br>
Subject:</b> Re: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues<br>
</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
Santosh,</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
</font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
I think that this behaviour should be specified by SPC3. I looked (again) into the FCP docs and like iSCSI they do not say anything beyond</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
iSCSI says. Like iSCSI they specify that the field is valid when the Oo/Uu bits are set but nothing about how those bits relate to status.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
SPC says nothing about that either &nbsp;(beyond that the bits set are not necessarily an indication of error). </font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><br>
</font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
Julo</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
<br>
</font>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td width=1%>
<td width=30%><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>Santosh Rao &lt;santoshr@cup.hp.com&gt;</b></font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><br>
Sent by: santoshr@hpcuhe.cup.hp.com</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">08/01/2002 03:44 AM</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<td width=67%><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </font><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;IPS Reflector &lt;ips@ece.cmu.edu&gt;, Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL, rdr@io.iol.unh.edu</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Robert Snively &lt;rsnively@brocade.com&gt;, T10 Reflector &lt;t10@t10.org&gt;</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Re: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
</font><font size=1 face="Arial"><br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </font></table>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><br>
</font><font size=2 face="Courier New"><br>
Julian &amp; Robert [Russell],<br>
<br>
I raised the same query regarding RESID for FCP/FCP-2 this time last<br>
year. The response I got for FCP/FCP-2 was that RESID information shall<br>
be valid, regardless of the scsi status returned. The RESID field, can<br>
be checked by the scsi transport drivers independent of the SCSI STATUS.<br>
<br>
I have enclosed the T10 response from Rob Snivelly below on that issue.<br>
As per FC-PLDA, the RESID information is valid, regardless of the scsi<br>
status returned by the device. <br>
<br>
An example of this is the case of &quot;NO SENSE&quot; or &quot;RECOVERED ERROR&quot; check<br>
condition, when the data transfer may have taken place and a CHECK<br>
CONDITION is returned. Also, for other CHECK CONDITION status', partial<br>
data transfer may have taken place and hence, resid information should<br>
be present.<br>
<br>
It would be good to maintain consistent behaviour across the scsi<br>
transports in this regard, since protocol bridging from iscsi to FCP<br>
domain would expect RESID information in the FCP domain, regardless of<br>
scsi status.<br>
<br>
This also allows scsi transports to remain free of SCSI command set<br>
details. (ex : the scsi transport drivers do not need to parse for CHECK<br>
CONDITION or GOO status information.)<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
Santosh<br>
<br>
<br>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Subject: Re: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues<br>
Date: &nbsp; &nbsp;Thu, 1 Aug 2002 02:52:19 +0300<br>
From: &nbsp; &quot;Julian Satran&quot; &lt;Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com&gt;<br>
To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &quot;Robert D. Russell&quot; &lt;rdr@io.iol.unh.edu&gt;<br>
CC: &nbsp; &nbsp; ips@ece.cmu.edu<br>
<br>
Bob, <br>
<br>
Thanks - some comments in text. Julo <br>
<br>
<br>
 &quot;Robert D. Russell&quot; &lt;rdr@io.iol.unh.edu&gt; <br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; <br>
Julian:<br>
<br>
Four issues came up today at the iSCSI plugfest:<br>
<br>
1. A question about whether or not the Residual Count field and the<br>
 appropriate O and U bits need to be computed on all SCSI Response<br>
 PDUs, regardless of the values in the Status and/or Response fields.<br>
<br>
 One point of view says that the Residual Count field and the O and U<br>
 bits appear to be strictly iSCSI values that are derived by the<br>
 iSCSI target layer from the ExpectedDataTransferLength field of the<br>
 SCSI Command PDU and the DataSegmentLength fields of the DataIn or<br>
 DataOut PDUs sent as part of this command. &nbsp;Therefore ,the iSCSI<br>
 target always computes a Residual Count value without regard to the<br>
 Status and/or Response fields, since these are SCSI values.<br>
<br>
 The other point of view says that the Residual Count field, and the<br>
 O and U bits, need only be set when the Status and Response fields<br>
 indicate that the command was completed at the target with a GOOD<br>
 Status, and the target does not have to compute or set the Residual<br>
 Count field and the O or U bits for other values of the Status and/or<br>
 Response fields.<br>
<br>
 Which is it? &nbsp;In any case, could this be clarified somewhere in the<br>
 standard, most likely in section 9.4.4.<br>
<br>
+++ Residual count fields are in fact carrioed over from the SCSI layer.<br>
I know that none of the SCSI docs specifies<br>
exactly their behavior and it strikes me as a bad idea to have protocols<br>
specify them. <br>
The values should be valid any time the target decides to put them in. <br>
+++</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><br>
</font><font size=2 face="Courier New"><br>
<br>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
Subject: RE: FCP_RSP Residual Checking.<br>
Date: &nbsp; &nbsp;Thu, 5 Jul 2001 13:18:42 -0700<br>
From: &nbsp; &nbsp;Robert Snively &lt;rsnively@brocade.com&gt;<br>
To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&quot;'Santosh Rao'&quot; &lt;santoshr@cup.hp.com&gt;, <br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;T10 Reflector &lt;t10@t10.org&gt;, <br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Fibre Channel T11 reflector &lt;fc@network.com&gt;<br>
<br>
Robert Snively wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;Is the target required to initialize the fields FCP_RESID_UNDER,<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;FCP_RESID_OVER &amp; FCP_RESID when any I/O is completed<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;without the data phase having transferred exactly<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;FCP_DL bytes, regardless of the SCSI Status being returned ?<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;When the target generates a CHECK CONDITION on an I/O<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;and may have returned less than FCP_DL bytes in the data<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;phase for that I/O, is it<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;required to set the FCP_RESID_UNDER to 1 and indicate the number of<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;bytes not transferred in the FCP_RESID field?<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; The intent is that the answer to your second question is:<br>
&gt; FCP_RESID should appropriately regardless of the SCSI Status<br>
&gt; being returned. &nbsp;The classic errors of that class are those<br>
&gt; involving successful completion with reporting, like<br>
&gt; the &quot;NO SENSE&quot; and &quot;RECOVERED ERROR&quot; series of errors.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;What is the behaviour initiators can expect under the above<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;condition ?<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; The intent is that there be no conflict. &nbsp;I believe that FCP-2<br>
&gt; was a bit less bald than FC-PLDA in stating the requirement.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;Is there a conflict in the behaviours described by FCP/FCP-2<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;&amp; FC-PLDA ?<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Bob Snively &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;e-mail: &nbsp; &nbsp;rsnively@brocade.com<br>
&gt; Brocade Communications Systems &nbsp; &nbsp; phone: &nbsp;408 487 8135<br>
&gt; 1745 Technology Drive<br>
&gt; San Jose, CA 95110<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;-----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;From: Santosh Rao [mailto:santoshr@cup.hp.com]<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 12:15 PM<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;To: T10 Reflector; Fibre Channel T11 reflector<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;Subject: FCP_RSP Residual Checking.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;All,<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;I've got a question on target behaviour while sending a</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">&gt; &gt; &nbsp;CHECK CONDITION<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;SCSI status in its FCP_RSP IU.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;Is the target required to initialize the fields FCP_RESID_UNDER,<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;FCP_RESID_OVER &amp; FCP_RESID when any I/O is completed without the data<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;phase having transferred exactly FCP_DL bytes, regardless of the SCSI<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;Status being returned ?<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;When the target generates a CHECK CONDITION on an I/O and may have<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;returned less than FCP_DL bytes in the data phase for that I/O, is it<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;required to set the FCP_RESID_UNDER to 1 and indicate the number of<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;bytes not transferred in the FCP_RESID field?<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;FC-PLDA Section 8.2.4.1 states that :<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;&quot;SCSI targets that transfer less than FCP_DL bytes during<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;the FCP_DATA<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;IUs shall set the FCP_RESID_UNDER to 1&quot;.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;No exceptions are specified in the case of a CHECK CONDITION in the<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;above definition, implying that FCP_RSP residual checking can be<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;performed irrespective of the SCSI Status that was returned in the<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;FCP_RSP.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;However, the wording descriptions of FCP_RESID_UNDER,<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;FCP_RESID_OVER &amp;<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;FCP_RESID in SCSI-FCP &amp; FCP-2 are not as stringent as<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;FC-PLDA and do not<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;mandate that FCP_RESID_UNDER shall be set when the data<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;transferred is &lt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;FCP_DL.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;What is the behaviour initiators can expect under the above<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;condition ?<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;Is there a conflict in the behaviours described by FCP/FCP-2<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;&amp; FC-PLDA ?<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;Thanks,<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;Santosh Rao<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Education is when you read the fine print. <br>
Experience is what you get if you don't.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><br>
<br>
</font>
<br>
<br>
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From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Fri Aug  2 02:27:18 2002
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Subject: RE: Invalid Pdus received during Login phase
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From: "Julian Satran" <Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com>
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Pat,

Comments in text.

Thanks,
Julo




pat_thaler@agilent.com
Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
07/30/2002 10:55 PM

 
        To:     praveenm@nettaxi.com, ips@ece.cmu.edu
        cc: 
        Subject:        RE: Invalid Pdus received during Login phase

 

Praveen,

This appears to be covered in 2.3 Last paragraph on page 33. "Before the 
Full Feature Phase is established, only Login Request and Login Response 
PDUs are allowed. Any other PDU, when received at initiator or target, is 
a protocol error and MUST result in the connection being terminated." 

So, if the target gets PDU that isn't a Login Request PDU during login, it 
closes the TCP connection (it might be more clear to say "TCP connection" 
rather than just "connection" in the text quoted above). It can't send a 
Login Response PDU because it hasn't gotten a Login Request to respond to. 
This response should be valid even if no Login PDUs have been received.

In researching this, I noticed that an earlier discussion on the use of 
protocol error vs negotiation failure seems to have been incompletely 
applied.

4.2.1 last sentence is confusing. It reads: "The selection of a value not 
proposed is considered a negotiation failure and MUST be handled as a 
protocol error." 5.10 and 5.11 cover Negotiation Failures and Protocol 
errors, respectively, so this sentence makes it unclear which applies. It 
should say "The selection of a value not proposed MUST be handled as a 
negotiation failure."
+++ it is a protocol error +++
4.2.2 The same edit applies to the third paragraph of 4.2.2.
+++ protocol error +++
4.3 Page 70 fifth paragraph "is considered a protocol error" should be 
"MUST be handled as a negotiation failure."
+++ protocol error +++
4.4 Page 78 second paragraph from bottom. Should "Reject" be "Reject PDU"? 
"Reject" could be misunderstood to be the value "Reject" but then there 
isn't any way to return "protocol error".
+++ added the word PDU +++
Regards,
Pat

-----Original Message-----
From: Praveen madhavan [mailto:praveenm@nettaxi.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 4:38 AM
To: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: Invalid Pdus received during Login phase


Hi,
 I would like to know the behavior of Target, when it receives invalid 
Pdu's during login phase. 
   Will target generates login response with Error of status detail 
-"Invalid during login" and terminates the connections. 
Or Reject command with reason code- "Protocol Error/Invalid PDU".

 If Invalid Pdus are received by Target, even before login phase
( I mean just before first login request from initiator), i think target 
can't send login response for it since it was not aware of ISID. In such 
senario how will target react ?

regards
Praveen.M 
 




------------------------------------------------------------
NEW - FREE Nettaxi 56kbs Dial-up INTERNET ACCESS with NO ADS or Ad Bars!
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<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Pat,</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Comments in text.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Thanks,</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Julo</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>pat_thaler@agilent.com</b></font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu</font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">07/30/2002 10:55 PM</font>
<br>
<td><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;praveenm@nettaxi.com, ips@ece.cmu.edu</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;RE: Invalid Pdus received during Login phase</font>
<br>
<br><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font></table>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">Praveen,<br>
<br>
This appears to be covered in 2.3 Last paragraph on page 33. &quot;Before the Full Feature Phase is established, only Login Request and Login Response PDUs are allowed. Any other PDU, when received at initiator or target, is a protocol error and MUST result in the connection being terminated.&quot; <br>
<br>
So, if the target gets PDU that isn't a Login Request PDU during login, it closes the TCP connection (it might be more clear to say &quot;TCP connection&quot; rather than just &quot;connection&quot; in the text quoted above). It can't send a Login Response PDU because it hasn't gotten a Login Request to respond to. This response should be valid even if no Login PDUs have been received.<br>
<br>
In researching this, I noticed that an earlier discussion on the use of protocol error vs negotiation failure seems to have been incompletely applied.<br>
<br>
4.2.1 last sentence is confusing. It reads: &quot;The selection of a value not proposed is considered a negotiation failure and MUST be handled as a protocol error.&quot; 5.10 and 5.11 cover Negotiation Failures and Protocol errors, respectively, so this sentence makes it unclear which applies. It should say &quot;The selection of a value not proposed MUST be handled as a negotiation failure.&quot;<br>
+++ it is a protocol error +++<br>
4.2.2 The same edit applies to the third paragraph of 4.2.2.<br>
+++ protocol error +++<br>
4.3 Page 70 fifth paragraph &quot;is considered a protocol error&quot; should be &quot;MUST be handled as a negotiation failure.&quot;<br>
+++ protocol error +++<br>
4.4 Page 78 second paragraph from bottom. Should &quot;Reject&quot; be &quot;Reject PDU&quot;? &quot;Reject&quot; could be misunderstood to be the value &quot;Reject&quot; but then there isn't any way to return &quot;protocol error&quot;.<br>
+++ added the word PDU +++<br>
Regards,<br>
Pat<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Praveen madhavan [mailto:praveenm@nettaxi.com]<br>
Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 4:38 AM<br>
To: ips@ece.cmu.edu<br>
Subject: Invalid Pdus received during Login phase<br>
<br>
<br>
Hi,<br>
 I would like to know the behavior of Target, when it receives invalid Pdu's during login phase. <br>
 &nbsp; Will target generates login response with Error of status detail -&quot;Invalid during login&quot; and terminates the connections. <br>
Or Reject command with reason code- &quot;Protocol Error/Invalid PDU&quot;.<br>
<br>
 If Invalid Pdus are received by Target, even before login phase<br>
( I mean just before first login request from initiator), i think target can't send login response for it since it was not aware of ISID. In such senario how will target react ?<br>
<br>
regards<br>
Praveen.M <br>
 <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------------------------------------<br>
NEW - FREE Nettaxi 56kbs Dial-up INTERNET ACCESS with NO ADS or Ad Bars!<br>
http://www.nettaxi.com/isp/<br>
</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Fri Aug  2 02:30:18 2002
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To: Santosh Rao <santoshr@cup.hp.com>
Cc: IPS Reflector <ips@ece.cmu.edu>, Robert Snively <rsnively@Brocade.COM>,
        santoshr@hpcuhe.cup.hp.com
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Subject: Re: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues
X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.9  November 16, 2001
From: "Julian Satran" <Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com>
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Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 08:55:03 +0300
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Santosh,

I may change the words - thanks - but that will not solve the issue raised 
- that is when are the bits set in relation to the status.

Julo




Santosh Rao <santoshr@cup.hp.com>
Sent by: santoshr@hpcuhe.cup.hp.com
08/01/2002 08:11 PM

 
        To:     Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL
        cc:     IPS Reflector <ips@ece.cmu.edu>, Robert Snively <rsnively@brocade.com>
        Subject:        Re: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues

 

Julian,

I agree with you that the wording should be sufficient as called out in
Section 9.4 description of the bits and the resid field.

However, in observance of the fact that non-interopability has been
noticed in this area, it may help to tighten the wording for the
description of the o/O and u/U bits in the "SCSI Response" description
in Section 9.4. Perhaps, the use of "MUST" directive when calling out
the condition for the u/U/o/O bits to be set would help.

Also, In Section 9.4.4, instead of :
"The Residual Count field is only valid in the case where either the U
bit or the O bit is set."

I suggest :
"The Residual Count field MUST be valid when either the U or the O bit
is set".

Similar wording for the Bi-di read residual count.

Thanks,
Santosh


Julian Satran wrote:
> 
> Santosh,
> 
> I think that this behaviour should be specified by SPC3. I looked
> (again) into the FCP docs and like iSCSI they do not say anything
> beyond
> iSCSI says. Like iSCSI they specify that the field is valid when the
> Oo/Uu bits are set but nothing about how those bits relate to status.
> SPC says nothing about that either  (beyond that the bits set are not
> necessarily an indication of error).
> 
> Julo
> 
>  Santosh Rao
>  <santoshr@cup.hp.com>                     To:        IPS Reflector
>  Sent by:                          <ips@ece.cmu.edu>, Julian
>  santoshr@hpcuhe.cup.hp.com        Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL,
>                                    rdr@io.iol.unh.edu
>  08/01/2002 03:44 AM                       cc:        Robert Snively
>                                    <rsnively@brocade.com>, T10
>                                    Reflector <t10@t10.org>
>                                            Subject:        Re: iSCSI:
>                                    plugfest4 issues
> 
> 
> 
> Julian & Robert [Russell],
> 
> I raised the same query regarding RESID for FCP/FCP-2 this time last
> year. The response I got for FCP/FCP-2 was that RESID information
> shall
> be valid, regardless of the scsi status returned. The RESID field, can
> be checked by the scsi transport drivers independent of the SCSI
> STATUS.
> 
> I have enclosed the T10 response from Rob Snivelly below on that
> issue.
> As per FC-PLDA, the RESID information is valid, regardless of the scsi
> status returned by the device.
> 
> An example of this is the case of "NO SENSE" or "RECOVERED ERROR"
> check
> condition, when the data transfer may have taken place and a CHECK
> CONDITION is returned. Also, for other CHECK CONDITION status',
> partial
> data transfer may have taken place and hence, resid information should
> be present.
> 
> It would be good to maintain consistent behaviour across the scsi
> transports in this regard, since protocol bridging from iscsi to FCP
> domain would expect RESID information in the FCP domain, regardless of
> scsi status.
> 
> This also allows scsi transports to remain free of SCSI command set
> details. (ex : the scsi transport drivers do not need to parse for
> CHECK
> CONDITION or GOO status information.)
> 
> Thanks,
> Santosh
> 
> 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Subject: Re: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues
> Date:    Thu, 1 Aug 2002 02:52:19 +0300
> From:   "Julian Satran" <Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com>
> To:     "Robert D. Russell" <rdr@io.iol.unh.edu>
> CC:     ips@ece.cmu.edu
> 
> Bob,
> 
> Thanks - some comments in text. Julo
> 
>  "Robert D. Russell" <rdr@io.iol.unh.edu>
> 
> Julian:
> 
> Four issues came up today at the iSCSI plugfest:
> 
> 1. A question about whether or not the Residual Count field and the
>  appropriate O and U bits need to be computed on all SCSI Response
>  PDUs, regardless of the values in the Status and/or Response fields.
> 
>  One point of view says that the Residual Count field and the O and U
>  bits appear to be strictly iSCSI values that are derived by the
>  iSCSI target layer from the ExpectedDataTransferLength field of the
>  SCSI Command PDU and the DataSegmentLength fields of the DataIn or
>  DataOut PDUs sent as part of this command.  Therefore ,the iSCSI
>  target always computes a Residual Count value without regard to the
>  Status and/or Response fields, since these are SCSI values.
> 
>  The other point of view says that the Residual Count field, and the
>  O and U bits, need only be set when the Status and Response fields
>  indicate that the command was completed at the target with a GOOD
>  Status, and the target does not have to compute or set the Residual
>  Count field and the O or U bits for other values of the Status and/or
>  Response fields.
> 
>  Which is it?  In any case, could this be clarified somewhere in the
>  standard, most likely in section 9.4.4.
> 
> +++ Residual count fields are in fact carrioed over from the SCSI
> layer.
> I know that none of the SCSI docs specifies
> exactly their behavior and it strikes me as a bad idea to have
> protocols
> specify them.
> The values should be valid any time the target decides to put them in.
> 
> +++
> 
> 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Subject: RE: FCP_RSP Residual Checking.
> Date:    Thu, 5 Jul 2001 13:18:42 -0700
> From:    Robert Snively <rsnively@brocade.com>
> To:      "'Santosh Rao'" <santoshr@cup.hp.com>,
>         T10 Reflector <t10@t10.org>,
>         Fibre Channel T11 reflector <fc@network.com>
> 
> Robert Snively wrote:
> >
> > >  Is the target required to initialize the fields FCP_RESID_UNDER,
> > >  FCP_RESID_OVER & FCP_RESID when any I/O is completed
> > >  without the data phase having transferred exactly
> > >  FCP_DL bytes, regardless of the SCSI Status being returned ?
> >
> > >  When the target generates a CHECK CONDITION on an I/O
> > >  and may have returned less than FCP_DL bytes in the data
> > >  phase for that I/O, is it
> > >  required to set the FCP_RESID_UNDER to 1 and indicate the number
> of
> > >  bytes not transferred in the FCP_RESID field?
> >
> > The intent is that the answer to your second question is:
> > FCP_RESID should appropriately regardless of the SCSI Status
> > being returned.  The classic errors of that class are those
> > involving successful completion with reporting, like
> > the "NO SENSE" and "RECOVERED ERROR" series of errors.
> >
> > >
> > >  What is the behaviour initiators can expect under the above
> > >  condition ?
> >
> > The intent is that there be no conflict.  I believe that FCP-2
> > was a bit less bald than FC-PLDA in stating the requirement.
> >
> > >  Is there a conflict in the behaviours described by FCP/FCP-2
> > >  & FC-PLDA ?
> > >
> >
> > Bob Snively                        e-mail:    rsnively@brocade.com
> > Brocade Communications Systems     phone:  408 487 8135
> > 1745 Technology Drive
> > San Jose, CA 95110
> >
> > >  -----Original Message-----
> > >  From: Santosh Rao [mailto:santoshr@cup.hp.com]
> > >  Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 12:15 PM
> > >  To: T10 Reflector; Fibre Channel T11 reflector
> > >  Subject: FCP_RSP Residual Checking.
> > >
> > >
> > >  All,
> > >
> > >  I've got a question on target behaviour while sending a
> > >  CHECK CONDITION
> > >  SCSI status in its FCP_RSP IU.
> > >
> > >  Is the target required to initialize the fields FCP_RESID_UNDER,
> > >  FCP_RESID_OVER & FCP_RESID when any I/O is completed without the
> data
> > >  phase having transferred exactly FCP_DL bytes, regardless of the
> SCSI
> > >  Status being returned ?
> > >
> > >  When the target generates a CHECK CONDITION on an I/O and may
> have
> > >  returned less than FCP_DL bytes in the data phase for that I/O,
> is it
> > >  required to set the FCP_RESID_UNDER to 1 and indicate the number
> of
> > >  bytes not transferred in the FCP_RESID field?
> > >
> > >  FC-PLDA Section 8.2.4.1 states that :
> > >  "SCSI targets that transfer less than FCP_DL bytes during
> > >  the FCP_DATA
> > >  IUs shall set the FCP_RESID_UNDER to 1".
> > >
> > >  No exceptions are specified in the case of a CHECK CONDITION in
> the
> > >  above definition, implying that FCP_RSP residual checking can be
> > >  performed irrespective of the SCSI Status that was returned in
> the
> > >  FCP_RSP.
> > >
> > >  However, the wording descriptions of FCP_RESID_UNDER,
> > >  FCP_RESID_OVER &
> > >  FCP_RESID in SCSI-FCP & FCP-2 are not as stringent as
> > >  FC-PLDA and do not
> > >  mandate that FCP_RESID_UNDER shall be set when the data
> > >  transferred is <
> > >  FCP_DL.
> > >
> > >  What is the behaviour initiators can expect under the above
> > >  condition ?
> > >  Is there a conflict in the behaviours described by FCP/FCP-2
> > >  & FC-PLDA ?
> > >
> > >  Thanks,
> > >  Santosh Rao
> > >
> 
> --
> Education is when you read the fine print.
> Experience is what you get if you don't.

-- 
Finish each day and be done with it.  You have done what you could;
Some blunders and absurdities have crept in; Forget them as soon as you
can.
Tomorrow is a new day; You shall begin it serenely and with too high a
spirit 
to be encumbered with your old nonsense.



--=_alternative 001FD6C9C2256C09_=
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"


<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Santosh,</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">I may change the words - thanks - but that will not solve the issue raised - that is when are the bits set in relation to the status.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Julo</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>Santosh Rao &lt;santoshr@cup.hp.com&gt;</b></font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Sent by: santoshr@hpcuhe.cup.hp.com</font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">08/01/2002 08:11 PM</font>
<br>
<td><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;IPS Reflector &lt;ips@ece.cmu.edu&gt;, Robert Snively &lt;rsnively@brocade.com&gt;</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Re: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues</font>
<br>
<br><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font></table>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">Julian,<br>
<br>
I agree with you that the wording should be sufficient as called out in<br>
Section 9.4 description of the bits and the resid field.<br>
<br>
However, in observance of the fact that non-interopability has been<br>
noticed in this area, it may help to tighten the wording for the<br>
description of the o/O and u/U bits in the &quot;SCSI Response&quot; description<br>
in Section 9.4. Perhaps, the use of &quot;MUST&quot; directive when calling out<br>
the condition for the u/U/o/O bits to be set would help.<br>
<br>
Also, In Section 9.4.4, instead of :<br>
&quot;The Residual Count field is only valid in the case where either the U<br>
bit or the O bit is set.&quot;<br>
<br>
I suggest :<br>
&quot;The Residual Count field MUST be valid when either the U or the O bit<br>
is set&quot;.<br>
<br>
Similar wording for the Bi-di read residual count.<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
Santosh<br>
<br>
<br>
Julian Satran wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Santosh,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; I think that this behaviour should be specified by SPC3. I looked<br>
&gt; (again) into the FCP docs and like iSCSI they do not say anything<br>
&gt; beyond<br>
&gt; iSCSI says. Like iSCSI they specify that the field is valid when the<br>
&gt; Oo/Uu bits are set but nothing about how those bits relate to status.<br>
&gt; SPC says nothing about that either &nbsp;(beyond that the bits set are not<br>
&gt; necessarily an indication of error).<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Julo<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &nbsp;Santosh Rao<br>
&gt; &nbsp;&lt;santoshr@cup.hp.com&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;IPS Reflector<br>
&gt; &nbsp;Sent by: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&lt;ips@ece.cmu.edu&gt;, Julian<br>
&gt; &nbsp;santoshr@hpcuhe.cup.hp.com &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL,<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;rdr@io.iol.unh.edu<br>
&gt; &nbsp;08/01/2002 03:44 AM &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Robert Snively<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&lt;rsnively@brocade.com&gt;, T10<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Reflector &lt;t10@t10.org&gt;<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Re: iSCSI:<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;plugfest4 issues<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Julian &amp; Robert [Russell],<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; I raised the same query regarding RESID for FCP/FCP-2 this time last<br>
&gt; year. The response I got for FCP/FCP-2 was that RESID information<br>
&gt; shall<br>
&gt; be valid, regardless of the scsi status returned. The RESID field, can<br>
&gt; be checked by the scsi transport drivers independent of the SCSI<br>
&gt; STATUS.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; I have enclosed the T10 response from Rob Snivelly below on that<br>
&gt; issue.<br>
&gt; As per FC-PLDA, the RESID information is valid, regardless of the scsi<br>
&gt; status returned by the device.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; An example of this is the case of &quot;NO SENSE&quot; or &quot;RECOVERED ERROR&quot;<br>
&gt; check<br>
&gt; condition, when the data transfer may have taken place and a CHECK<br>
&gt; CONDITION is returned. Also, for other CHECK CONDITION status',<br>
&gt; partial<br>
&gt; data transfer may have taken place and hence, resid information should<br>
&gt; be present.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; It would be good to maintain consistent behaviour across the scsi<br>
&gt; transports in this regard, since protocol bridging from iscsi to FCP<br>
&gt; domain would expect RESID information in the FCP domain, regardless of<br>
&gt; scsi status.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; This also allows scsi transports to remain free of SCSI command set<br>
&gt; details. (ex : the scsi transport drivers do not need to parse for<br>
&gt; CHECK</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">&gt; CONDITION or GOO status information.)<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Thanks,<br>
&gt; Santosh<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; -------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Subject: Re: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues<br>
&gt; Date: &nbsp; &nbsp;Thu, 1 Aug 2002 02:52:19 +0300<br>
&gt; From: &nbsp; &quot;Julian Satran&quot; &lt;Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com&gt;<br>
&gt; To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &quot;Robert D. Russell&quot; &lt;rdr@io.iol.unh.edu&gt;<br>
&gt; CC: &nbsp; &nbsp; ips@ece.cmu.edu<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Bob,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Thanks - some comments in text. Julo<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &nbsp;&quot;Robert D. Russell&quot; &lt;rdr@io.iol.unh.edu&gt;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Julian:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Four issues came up today at the iSCSI plugfest:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; 1. A question about whether or not the Residual Count field and the<br>
&gt; &nbsp;appropriate O and U bits need to be computed on all SCSI Response<br>
&gt; &nbsp;PDUs, regardless of the values in the Status and/or Response fields.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &nbsp;One point of view says that the Residual Count field and the O and U<br>
&gt; &nbsp;bits appear to be strictly iSCSI values that are derived by the<br>
&gt; &nbsp;iSCSI target layer from the ExpectedDataTransferLength field of the<br>
&gt; &nbsp;SCSI Command PDU and the DataSegmentLength fields of the DataIn or<br>
&gt; &nbsp;DataOut PDUs sent as part of this command. &nbsp;Therefore ,the iSCSI<br>
&gt; &nbsp;target always computes a Residual Count value without regard to the<br>
&gt; &nbsp;Status and/or Response fields, since these are SCSI values.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &nbsp;The other point of view says that the Residual Count field, and the<br>
&gt; &nbsp;O and U bits, need only be set when the Status and Response fields<br>
&gt; &nbsp;indicate that the command was completed at the target with a GOOD<br>
&gt; &nbsp;Status, and the target does not have to compute or set the Residual<br>
&gt; &nbsp;Count field and the O or U bits for other values of the Status and/or<br>
&gt; &nbsp;Response fields.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &nbsp;Which is it? &nbsp;In any case, could this be clarified somewhere in the<br>
&gt; &nbsp;standard, most likely in section 9.4.4.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; +++ Residual count fields are in fact carrioed over from the SCSI<br>
&gt; layer.<br>
&gt; I know that none of the SCSI docs specifies<br>
&gt; exactly their behavior and it strikes me as a bad idea to have<br>
&gt; protocols<br>
&gt; specify them.<br>
&gt; The values should be valid any time the target decides to put them in.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; +++<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; -------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
&gt; Subject: RE: FCP_RSP Residual Checking.<br>
&gt; Date: &nbsp; &nbsp;Thu, 5 Jul 2001 13:18:42 -0700<br>
&gt; From: &nbsp; &nbsp;Robert Snively &lt;rsnively@brocade.com&gt;<br>
&gt; To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&quot;'Santosh Rao'&quot; &lt;santoshr@cup.hp.com&gt;,<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; T10 Reflector &lt;t10@t10.org&gt;,<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Fibre Channel T11 reflector &lt;fc@network.com&gt;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Robert Snively wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp;Is the target required to initialize the fields FCP_RESID_UNDER,<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp;FCP_RESID_OVER &amp; FCP_RESID when any I/O is completed<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp;without the data phase having transferred exactly<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp;FCP_DL bytes, regardless of the SCSI Status being returned ?<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp;When the target generates a CHECK CONDITION on an I/O<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp;and may have returned less than FCP_DL bytes in the data<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp;phase for that I/O, is it<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp;required to set the FCP_RESID_UNDER to 1 and indicate the number<br>
&gt; of<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp;bytes not transferred in the FCP_RESID field?<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; The intent is that the answer to your second question is:<br>
&gt; &gt; FCP_RESID should appropriately regardless of the SCSI Status<br>
&gt; &gt; being returned. &nbsp;The classic errors of that class are those<br>
&gt; &gt; involving successful completion with reporting, like<br>
&gt; &gt; the &quot;NO SENSE&quot; and &quot;RECOVERED ERROR&quot; series of errors.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp;What is the behaviour initiators can expect under the above<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp;condition ?<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; The intent is that there be no conflict. &nbsp;I believe that FCP-2<br>
&gt; &gt; was a bit less bald than FC-PLDA in stating the requirement.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp;Is there a conflict in the behaviours described by FCP/FCP-2<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp;&amp; FC-PLDA ?<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Bob Snively &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;e-mail: &nbsp; &nbsp;rsnively@brocade.com<br>
&gt; &gt; Brocade Communications Systems &nbsp; &nbsp; phone: &nbsp;408 487 8135<br>
&gt; &gt; 1745 Technology Drive<br>
&gt; &gt; San Jose, CA 95110<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp;-----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp;From: Santosh Rao [mailto:santoshr@cup.hp.com]<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp;Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 12:15 PM<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp;To: T10 Reflector; Fibre Channel T11 reflector<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp;Subject: FCP_RSP Residual Checking.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp;All,<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp;I've got a question on target behaviour while sending a<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp;CHECK CONDITION<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp;SCSI status in its FCP_RSP IU.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp;Is the target required to initialize the fields FCP_RESID_UNDER,<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp;FCP_RESID_OVER &amp; FCP_RESID when any I/O is completed without the<br>
&gt; data<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp;phase having transferred exactly FCP_DL bytes, regardless of the<br>
&gt; SCSI<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp;Status being returned ?<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp;When the target generates a CHECK CONDITION on an I/O and may<br>
&gt; have<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp;returned less than FCP_DL bytes in the data phase for that I/O,<br>
&gt; is it<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp;required to set the FCP_RESID_UNDER to 1 and indicate the number<br>
&gt; of<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp;bytes not transferred in the FCP_RESID field?<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp;FC-PLDA Section 8.2.4.1 states that :<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp;&quot;SCSI targets that transfer less than FCP_DL bytes during<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp;the FCP_DATA<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp;IUs shall set the FCP_RESID_UNDER to 1&quot;.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp;No exceptions are specified in the case of a CHECK CONDITION in<br>
&gt; the<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp;above definition, implying that FCP_RSP residual checking can be<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp;performed irrespective of the SCSI Status that was returned in<br>
&gt; the<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp;FCP_RSP.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp;However, the wording descriptions of FCP_RESID_UNDER,<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp;FCP_RESID_OVER &amp;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp;FCP_RESID in SCSI-FCP &amp; FCP-2 are not as stringent as<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp;FC-PLDA and do not<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp;mandate that FCP_RESID_UNDER shall be set when the data<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp;transferred is &lt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp;FCP_DL.<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp;What is the behaviour initiators can expect under the above<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp;condition ?<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp;Is there a conflict in the behaviours described by FCP/FCP-2<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp;&amp; FC-PLDA ?<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp;Thanks,<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &nbsp;Santosh Rao<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; --<br>
&gt; Education is when you read the fine print.<br>
&gt; Experience is what you get if you don't.<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Finish each day and be done with it. &nbsp;You have done what you could;<br>
Some blunders and absurdities have crept in; Forget them as soon as you<br>
can.<br>
Tomorrow is a new day; You shall begin it serenely and with too high a<br>
spirit <br>
to be encumbered with your old nonsense.<br>
</font>
<br>
<br>
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To: Bill Studenmund <wrstuden@wasabisystems.com>
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu, Steve Senum <ssenum@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: iSCSI - working draft and IANA
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Reading the proposed text would help the discussion.
The extended keys are supposed to have an X# in front to avoid any 
colision with current or future versions of iSCSI.

Julo




Bill Studenmund <wrstuden@wasabisystems.com>
07/31/2002 12:18 AM

 
        To:     Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL
        cc:     Steve Senum <ssenum@cisco.com>, <ips@ece.cmu.edu>
        Subject:        Re: iSCSI - working draft and IANA

 

On Tue, 30 Jul 2002, Julian Satran wrote:

> Registering the current keys is an issue already raised by Mallikarjun.
> The only think I can comment about is that I don't see what we stand to
> gain (and I can cleraly see the  pain!).

I think what we stand to gain is that then the IANA folks know what has
already registered, so that someone can't register a name in the spec.
Or so that the spec can't later start using names already registered.

This discussion is assuming that the space open for IANA registration is
not contrained to exclude keys already in the spec.

Take care,

Bill




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<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Reading the proposed text would help the discussion.</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">The extended keys are supposed to have an X# in front to avoid any colision with current or future versions of iSCSI.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Julo</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>Bill Studenmund &lt;wrstuden@wasabisystems.com&gt;</b></font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">07/31/2002 12:18 AM</font>
<br>
<td><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Steve Senum &lt;ssenum@cisco.com&gt;, &lt;ips@ece.cmu.edu&gt;</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Re: iSCSI - working draft and IANA</font>
<br>
<br><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font></table>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">On Tue, 30 Jul 2002, Julian Satran wrote:<br>
<br>
&gt; Registering the current keys is an issue already raised by Mallikarjun.<br>
&gt; The only think I can comment about is that I don't see what we stand to<br>
&gt; gain (and I can cleraly see the &nbsp;pain!).<br>
<br>
I think what we stand to gain is that then the IANA folks know what has<br>
already registered, so that someone can't register a name in the spec.<br>
Or so that the spec can't later start using names already registered.<br>
<br>
This discussion is assuming that the space open for IANA registration is<br>
not contrained to exclude keys already in the spec.<br>
<br>
Take care,<br>
<br>
Bill<br>
<br>
</font>
<br>
<br>
--=_alternative 0022B8A3C2256C09_=--


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Fri Aug  2 05:15:47 2002
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From: "Rao, Sajjan" <sajjan_rao@adaptec.com>
To: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: Clarification in NOP's
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 01:33:06 -0700 
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Hi,
            If in a NOP-Out ITT field contains 0xFFFFFFFF, then the draft
says the CmdSN contains the next CmdSN, However the CmdSN is not advanced
and the I bit should be 1. 
            Does it mean that, if In a NOP-Out ITT is 0xFFFFFFFF then I bit
should be set 1, and hence the CmdSN is not advanced, so what should a
target do in a case where the ITT is 0xFFFFFFFF and I is not set to 1, is it
an error?
The initiator can expect a NOP-In only if the ITT value is valid, so what
does a target do when ITT is 0xFFFFFFFF and I = 1?
 
Thanx in advance,
- Sajjan

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<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><span =
style=3D'mso-tab-count:1'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>If
in a NOP-Out ITT field contains 0xFFFFFFFF, then the draft says the =
<span
class=3DSpellE>CmdSN</span> contains the next <span =
class=3DSpellE>CmdSN</span>, However
the <span class=3DSpellE>CmdSN</span> is not advanced and <span =
class=3DGramE>the I</span>
bit should be 1. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><span =
style=3D'mso-tab-count:1'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>Does
it mean that, if In a NOP-Out ITT is 0xFFFFFFFF then I bit should be =
set 1, and
hence the <span class=3DSpellE>CmdSN</span> is not advanced, so what =
should a
target do in a case where the ITT is 0xFFFFFFFF and I is not set to 1, =
is it an
error?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>The initiator can expect a NOP-In only if the ITT =
value is
valid, so what does a target do when ITT is 0xFFFFFFFF and I =3D =
1?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DSpellE><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Thanx</span></font></span><=
font
size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> in =
advance,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>- Sajjan<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

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From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Fri Aug  2 13:12:33 2002
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Dear all,

Please have a look at the expanded IANA section. It has registration 
procedure picked up from the
MIME registration.  I assume the process is acceptable although it might 
need wordsmithing.

I am not convinced that registering the current keys has some value (I can 
see only the drawbacks) so I did not put it in.

A central repository might have value if it would contain anything beyond 
the string.

For keys it does not look that it will.

But I am still listening.

Julo
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<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Dear all,</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Please have a look at the expanded IANA section. It has registration procedure picked up from the</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">MIME registration. &nbsp;I assume the process is acceptable although it might need wordsmithing.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">I am not convinced that registering the current keys has some value (I can see only the drawbacks) so I did not put it in.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">A central repository might have value if it would contain anything beyond the string.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">For keys it does not look that it will.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">But I am still listening.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Julo</font>
--=_alternative 005A5DC0C2256C09_=--


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Fri Aug  2 19:27:50 2002
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From: Black_David@emc.com
To: sajjan_rao@adaptec.com, ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: Clarification in NOP's
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 19:03:18 -0400 
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>             If in a NOP-Out ITT field contains 0xFFFFFFFF, then the
> draft says the CmdSN contains the next CmdSN, However the CmdSN is
> not advanced and the I bit should be 1.

Current working draft says:

	If the Initiator Task Tag contains 0xffffffff the I bit must be set
	to 1 and the CmdSN is not advanced after this PDU is sent.

And that "must" probably ought to be a MUST ....

>             Does it mean that, if In a NOP-Out ITT is 0xFFFFFFFF then I
> bit should be set 1, and hence the CmdSN is not advanced, so what should
> a target do in a case where the ITT is 0xFFFFFFFF and I is not set to 1,
> is it an error?

Yes.

> The initiator can expect a NOP-In only if the ITT value is valid, so
> what does a target do when ITT is 0xFFFFFFFF and I = 1?
 
It's at least a Protocol Error and could be considered a Format Error.
Issuing a Reject PDU with Reason 0x09 (Invalid PDU field) is
preferable to closing the connection due to getting the I bit
wrong in a NOP, although the latter is permissible (Section 5.6).

Thanks,
--David
---------------------------------------------------
David L. Black, Senior Technologist
EMC Corporation, 42 South St., Hopkinton, MA  01748
+1 (508) 249-6449            FAX: +1 (508) 497-8018
black_david@emc.com       Mobile: +1 (978) 394-7754
---------------------------------------------------


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From: Black_David@emc.com
To: Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 18:50:55 -0400 
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Julian,
 
Matching FCP's wording resulted in a "go ask the expert" algorithm
for figuring out what is required - we ought to do better, and this
is an iSCSI protocol issue.  What I'm looking for in 9.4 is:
 
- Bits 3-6 (o, u, O, U) MAY be set by the Target and SHOULD be checked
    by the Initiator when the Response is "Command Completed at Target"
    no matter what the value of the Status field is.
- SCSI permits Residual Counts to be returned for Status values other
    than GOOD; see [SPC2].
 
I believe that both of these are implied by the current text, but since
this caused confusion at the plugfest, we ought to spell it out.
 
Thanks,
--David
---------------------------------------------------
David L. Black, Senior Technologist
EMC Corporation, 42 South St., Hopkinton, MA  01748
+1 (508) 249-6449            FAX: +1 (508) 497-8018
black_david@emc.com       Mobile: +1 (978) 394-7754
---------------------------------------------------


-----Original Message-----
From: Julian Satran [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]
Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 1:43 AM
To: Black_David@emc.com
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues



David, 

We DO EXACTLY what FCP did  - say nothing. 
I went through the document - thetre is no relation mentioned and that is
what we do too. 

In any case we cannot enforce a SCSI behavior. 
The expectation is obvious that if SCSI hands obver counts those will be
carried by iSCSI. 

I also suspect that the trouble may be deeper than we think and I find it
much more prudent 
to say nothing (again as FCP did). 

Julo 




	Black_David@emc.com 


08/01/2002 05:56 PM 


        
        To:        Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL 
        cc:        ips@ece.cmu.edu 
        Subject:        RE: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues 

       


Julian, 
  
I think we need to do something here, as there are clearly 
situations in which the residual count is important for commands that 
complete with other than good status, making the "other point of 
view" reported by Robert Russell incorrect.  Waiting for SPC-3 to 
do something to clarify this isn't going to do much for iSCSI 
interoperability in the short term.  Since Bob Snively was the 
Technical Editor of FCP-2, he tends to be correct about what FCP-2 
requires or intends - I suggest we follow FCP-2, and say that the 
O/o/U/u bits are valid in all cases (of course, if none of them 
are set, the Residual Count field is not valid). 
  
Thanks, 
--David 

---------------------------------------------------
David L. Black, Senior Technologist
EMC Corporation, 42 South St., Hopkinton, MA  01748
+1 (508) 249-6449            FAX: +1 (508) 497-8018
black_david@emc.com       Mobile: +1 (978) 394-7754
--------------------------------------------------- 


-----Original Message-----
From: Julian Satran [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 3:26 AM
To: Santosh Rao
Cc: IPS Reflector; rdr@io.iol.unh.edu; Robert Snively;
santoshr@hpcuhe.cup.hp.com; T10 Reflector
Subject: Re: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues


Santosh, 

I think that this behaviour should be specified by SPC3. I looked (again)
into the FCP docs and like iSCSI they do not say anything beyond 
iSCSI says. Like iSCSI they specify that the field is valid when the Oo/Uu
bits are set but nothing about how those bits relate to status. 
SPC says nothing about that either  (beyond that the bits set are not
necessarily an indication of error). 

Julo 



	Santosh Rao <santoshr@cup.hp.com> 
Sent by: santoshr@hpcuhe.cup.hp.com 


08/01/2002 03:44 AM 

        
       To:        IPS Reflector <ips@ece.cmu.edu>, Julian
Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL, rdr@io.iol.unh.edu 
       cc:        Robert Snively <rsnively@brocade.com>, T10 Reflector
<t10@t10.org> 
       Subject:        Re: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues 

      



Julian & Robert [Russell],

I raised the same query regarding RESID for FCP/FCP-2 this time last
year. The response I got for FCP/FCP-2 was that RESID information shall
be valid, regardless of the scsi status returned. The RESID field, can
be checked by the scsi transport drivers independent of the SCSI STATUS.

I have enclosed the T10 response from Rob Snivelly below on that issue.
As per FC-PLDA, the RESID information is valid, regardless of the scsi
status returned by the device. 

An example of this is the case of "NO SENSE" or "RECOVERED ERROR" check
condition, when the data transfer may have taken place and a CHECK
CONDITION is returned. Also, for other CHECK CONDITION status', partial
data transfer may have taken place and hence, resid information should
be present.

It would be good to maintain consistent behaviour across the scsi
transports in this regard, since protocol bridging from iscsi to FCP
domain would expect RESID information in the FCP domain, regardless of
scsi status.

This also allows scsi transports to remain free of SCSI command set
details. (ex : the scsi transport drivers do not need to parse for CHECK
CONDITION or GOO status information.)

Thanks,
Santosh


-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues
Date:    Thu, 1 Aug 2002 02:52:19 +0300
From:   "Julian Satran" <Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com>
To:     "Robert D. Russell" <rdr@io.iol.unh.edu>
CC:     ips@ece.cmu.edu

Bob, 

Thanks - some comments in text. Julo 


"Robert D. Russell" <rdr@io.iol.unh.edu> 
                                          
Julian:

Four issues came up today at the iSCSI plugfest:

1. A question about whether or not the Residual Count field and the
appropriate O and U bits need to be computed on all SCSI Response
PDUs, regardless of the values in the Status and/or Response fields.

One point of view says that the Residual Count field and the O and U
bits appear to be strictly iSCSI values that are derived by the
iSCSI target layer from the ExpectedDataTransferLength field of the
SCSI Command PDU and the DataSegmentLength fields of the DataIn or
DataOut PDUs sent as part of this command.  Therefore ,the iSCSI
target always computes a Residual Count value without regard to the
Status and/or Response fields, since these are SCSI values.

The other point of view says that the Residual Count field, and the
O and U bits, need only be set when the Status and Response fields
indicate that the command was completed at the target with a GOOD
Status, and the target does not have to compute or set the Residual
Count field and the O or U bits for other values of the Status and/or
Response fields.

Which is it?  In any case, could this be clarified somewhere in the
standard, most likely in section 9.4.4.

+++ Residual count fields are in fact carrioed over from the SCSI layer.
I know that none of the SCSI docs specifies
exactly their behavior and it strikes me as a bad idea to have protocols
specify them. 
The values should be valid any time the target decides to put them in. 
+++


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: RE: FCP_RSP Residual Checking.
Date:    Thu, 5 Jul 2001 13:18:42 -0700
From:    Robert Snively <rsnively@brocade.com>
To:      "'Santosh Rao'" <santoshr@cup.hp.com>, 
       T10 Reflector <t10@t10.org>, 
       Fibre Channel T11 reflector <fc@network.com>

Robert Snively wrote:
> 
> >  Is the target required to initialize the fields FCP_RESID_UNDER,
> >  FCP_RESID_OVER & FCP_RESID when any I/O is completed
> >  without the data phase having transferred exactly
> >  FCP_DL bytes, regardless of the SCSI Status being returned ?
> 
> >  When the target generates a CHECK CONDITION on an I/O
> >  and may have returned less than FCP_DL bytes in the data
> >  phase for that I/O, is it
> >  required to set the FCP_RESID_UNDER to 1 and indicate the number of
> >  bytes not transferred in the FCP_RESID field?
> 
> The intent is that the answer to your second question is:
> FCP_RESID should appropriately regardless of the SCSI Status
> being returned.  The classic errors of that class are those
> involving successful completion with reporting, like
> the "NO SENSE" and "RECOVERED ERROR" series of errors.
> 
> >
> >  What is the behaviour initiators can expect under the above
> >  condition ?
> 
> The intent is that there be no conflict.  I believe that FCP-2
> was a bit less bald than FC-PLDA in stating the requirement.
> 
> >  Is there a conflict in the behaviours described by FCP/FCP-2
> >  & FC-PLDA ?
> >
> 
> Bob Snively                        e-mail:    rsnively@brocade.com
> Brocade Communications Systems     phone:  408 487 8135
> 1745 Technology Drive
> San Jose, CA 95110
> 
> >  -----Original Message-----
> >  From: Santosh Rao [mailto:santoshr@cup.hp.com]
> >  Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 12:15 PM
> >  To: T10 Reflector; Fibre Channel T11 reflector
> >  Subject: FCP_RSP Residual Checking.
> >
> >
> >  All,
> >
> >  I've got a question on target behaviour while sending a 
> >  CHECK CONDITION
> >  SCSI status in its FCP_RSP IU.
> >
> >  Is the target required to initialize the fields FCP_RESID_UNDER,
> >  FCP_RESID_OVER & FCP_RESID when any I/O is completed without the data
> >  phase having transferred exactly FCP_DL bytes, regardless of the SCSI
> >  Status being returned ?
> >
> >  When the target generates a CHECK CONDITION on an I/O and may have
> >  returned less than FCP_DL bytes in the data phase for that I/O, is it
> >  required to set the FCP_RESID_UNDER to 1 and indicate the number of
> >  bytes not transferred in the FCP_RESID field?
> >
> >  FC-PLDA Section 8.2.4.1 states that :
> >  "SCSI targets that transfer less than FCP_DL bytes during
> >  the FCP_DATA
> >  IUs shall set the FCP_RESID_UNDER to 1".
> >
> >  No exceptions are specified in the case of a CHECK CONDITION in the
> >  above definition, implying that FCP_RSP residual checking can be
> >  performed irrespective of the SCSI Status that was returned in the
> >  FCP_RSP.
> >
> >  However, the wording descriptions of FCP_RESID_UNDER,
> >  FCP_RESID_OVER &
> >  FCP_RESID in SCSI-FCP & FCP-2 are not as stringent as
> >  FC-PLDA and do not
> >  mandate that FCP_RESID_UNDER shall be set when the data
> >  transferred is <
> >  FCP_DL.
> >
> >  What is the behaviour initiators can expect under the above
> >  condition ?
> >  Is there a conflict in the behaviours described by FCP/FCP-2
> >  & FC-PLDA ?
> >
> >  Thanks,
> >  Santosh Rao
> >

-- 
Education is when you read the fine print. 
Experience is what you get if you don't.






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<DIV><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN 
class=033304122-02082002>Julian,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN 
class=033304122-02082002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN class=033304122-02082002>Matching 
FCP's wording resulted in a "go ask the expert" algorithm</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN class=033304122-02082002>for figuring 
out what is required - we ought to do better, and this</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN class=033304122-02082002>is an iSCSI 
protocol issue.&nbsp; What I'm looking for in 9.4 is:</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN 
class=033304122-02082002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN class=033304122-02082002>- Bits 3-6 
(o, u, O, U) MAY be set by the Target and SHOULD be checked</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN 
class=033304122-02082002>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; by the&nbsp;Initiator when the 
Response is "Command Completed at Target"</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN 
class=033304122-02082002>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; no matter what the value of the 
Status field is.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN class=033304122-02082002>-&nbsp;SCSI 
permits Residual Counts to be&nbsp;returned for&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT><FONT 
face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN class=033304122-02082002>Status values 
other</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN 
class=033304122-02082002>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; than GOOD; see 
[SPC2].</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN 
class=033304122-02082002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN class=033304122-02082002>I believe 
that both of these are implied&nbsp;by the current text, but 
since</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN class=033304122-02082002>this caused 
confusion at the plugfest, we ought to spell it out.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN 
class=033304122-02082002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN 
class=033304122-02082002>Thanks,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN 
class=033304122-02082002>--David</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN class=033304122-02082002>
<P><FONT size=2>---------------------------------------------------<BR>David L. 
Black, Senior Technologist<BR>EMC Corporation, 42 South St., Hopkinton, MA&nbsp; 
01748<BR>+1 (508) 
249-6449&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; FAX: 
+1 (508) 497-8018<BR>black_david@emc.com&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
Mobile: +1 (978) 
394-7754<BR>---------------------------------------------------<BR></FONT></P></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE 
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
  <DIV align=left class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr><FONT face=Tahoma 
  size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Julian Satran 
  [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, August 02, 2002 1:43 
  AM<BR><B>To:</B> Black_David@emc.com<BR><B>Cc:</B> 
  ips@ece.cmu.edu<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: iSCSI: plugfest4 
  issues<BR><BR></DIV></FONT><BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>David,</FONT> 
  <BR><BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>We DO EXACTLY what FCP did &nbsp;- say 
  nothing.</FONT> <BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>I went through the document - 
  thetre is no relation mentioned and that is what we do too.</FONT> 
  <BR><BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>In any case we cannot enforce a SCSI 
  behavior.</FONT> <BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>The expectation is obvious 
  that if SCSI hands obver counts those will be carried by iSCSI.</FONT> 
  <BR><BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>I also suspect that the trouble may be 
  deeper than we think and I find it much more prudent </FONT><BR><FONT 
  face=sans-serif size=2>to say nothing (again as FCP did).</FONT> <BR><BR><FONT 
  face=sans-serif size=2>Julo</FONT> <BR><BR><BR><BR>
  <TABLE width="100%">
    <TBODY>
    <TR vAlign=top>
      <TD>
      <TD><FONT face=sans-serif size=1><B>Black_David@emc.com</B></FONT> 
        <P><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>08/01/2002 05:56 PM</FONT> <BR></P>
      <TD><FONT face=Arial size=1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </FONT><BR><FONT 
        face=sans-serif size=1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; To: &nbsp; &nbsp; 
        &nbsp; &nbsp;Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL</FONT> <BR><FONT 
        face=sans-serif size=1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; 
        &nbsp; &nbsp;ips@ece.cmu.edu</FONT> <BR><FONT face=sans-serif 
        size=1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 
        &nbsp;RE: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues</FONT> <BR><BR><FONT face=Arial 
        size=1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</FONT></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR><BR><FONT 
  face="Courier New" size=2>Julian,</FONT> <BR><FONT face="Times New Roman" 
  size=3>&nbsp;</FONT> <BR><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>I think we need to do 
  something here, as there are clearly</FONT> <BR><FONT face="Courier New" 
  size=2>situations in which the residual count is important for commands 
  that</FONT> <BR><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>complete with other than good 
  status, making the "other point of</FONT> <BR><FONT face="Courier New" 
  size=2>view" reported by Robert Russell incorrect. &nbsp;Waiting for SPC-3 
  to</FONT> <BR><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>do something to clarify this 
  isn't going to do much for iSCSI</FONT> <BR><FONT face="Courier New" 
  size=2>interoperability in the short term. &nbsp;Since Bob Snively was 
  the</FONT> <BR><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>Technical Editor of FCP-2, he 
  tends to be correct about what FCP-2</FONT> <BR><FONT face="Courier New" 
  size=2>requires or intends - I suggest we follow FCP-2, and say that 
  the</FONT> <BR><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>O/o/U/u bits are valid in all 
  cases (of course, if none of them</FONT> <BR><FONT face="Courier New" 
  size=2>are set, the Residual Count field is not valid).</FONT> <BR><FONT 
  face="Times New Roman" size=3>&nbsp;</FONT> <BR><FONT face="Courier New" 
  size=2>Thanks,</FONT> <BR><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>--David</FONT> 
  <P><FONT face="Courier New" 
  size=2>---------------------------------------------------<BR>David L. Black, 
  Senior Technologist<BR>EMC Corporation, 42 South St., Hopkinton, MA 
  &nbsp;01748<BR>+1 (508) 249-6449 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;FAX: 
  +1 (508) 497-8018<BR>black_david@emc.com &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Mobile: +1 (978) 
  394-7754<BR>---------------------------------------------------</FONT> 
  <P><FONT face=Tahoma size=2>-----Original Message-----<B><BR>From:</B> Julian 
  Satran [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]<B><BR>Sent:</B> Thursday, August 01, 
  2002 3:26 AM<B><BR>To:</B> Santosh Rao<B><BR>Cc:</B> IPS Reflector; 
  rdr@io.iol.unh.edu; Robert Snively; santoshr@hpcuhe.cup.hp.com; T10 
  Reflector<B><BR>Subject:</B> Re: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues<BR></FONT><BR><FONT 
  face=sans-serif size=2><BR>Santosh,</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> 
  <BR></FONT><FONT face=sans-serif size=2><BR>I think that this behaviour should 
  be specified by SPC3. I looked (again) into the FCP docs and like iSCSI they 
  do not say anything beyond</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> 
  </FONT><FONT face=sans-serif size=2><BR>iSCSI says. Like iSCSI they specify 
  that the field is valid when the Oo/Uu bits are set but nothing about how 
  those bits relate to status.</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> 
  </FONT><FONT face=sans-serif size=2><BR>SPC says nothing about that either 
  &nbsp;(beyond that the bits set are not necessarily an indication of error). 
  </FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><BR></FONT><FONT face=sans-serif 
  size=2><BR>Julo</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> <BR><BR></FONT>
  <TABLE width="100%">
    <TBODY>
    <TR vAlign=top>
      <TD width="1%">
      <TD width="30%"><FONT face=sans-serif size=1><B>Santosh Rao 
        &lt;santoshr@cup.hp.com&gt;</B></FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" 
        size=3> </FONT><FONT face=sans-serif size=1><BR>Sent by: 
        santoshr@hpcuhe.cup.hp.com</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> 
        </FONT>
        <P><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>08/01/2002 03:44 AM</FONT><FONT 
        face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT></P>
      <TD width="67%"><FONT face=Arial size=1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 
        </FONT><FONT face=sans-serif size=1><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;To: 
        &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;IPS Reflector &lt;ips@ece.cmu.edu&gt;, Julian 
        Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL, rdr@io.iol.unh.edu</FONT><FONT 
        face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT><FONT face=sans-serif 
        size=1><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 
        &nbsp;Robert Snively &lt;rsnively@brocade.com&gt;, T10 Reflector 
        &lt;t10@t10.org&gt;</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> 
        </FONT><FONT face=sans-serif size=1><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 
        &nbsp;Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Re: iSCSI: plugfest4 
        issues</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> <BR></FONT><FONT 
        face=Arial size=1><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 
  </FONT></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR><FONT face="Times New Roman" 
  size=3><BR></FONT><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><BR>Julian &amp; Robert 
  [Russell],<BR><BR>I raised the same query regarding RESID for FCP/FCP-2 this 
  time last<BR>year. The response I got for FCP/FCP-2 was that RESID information 
  shall<BR>be valid, regardless of the scsi status returned. The RESID field, 
  can<BR>be checked by the scsi transport drivers independent of the SCSI 
  STATUS.<BR><BR>I have enclosed the T10 response from Rob Snivelly below on 
  that issue.<BR>As per FC-PLDA, the RESID information is valid, regardless of 
  the scsi<BR>status returned by the device. <BR><BR>An example of this is the 
  case of "NO SENSE" or "RECOVERED ERROR" check<BR>condition, when the data 
  transfer may have taken place and a CHECK<BR>CONDITION is returned. Also, for 
  other CHECK CONDITION status', partial<BR>data transfer may have taken place 
  and hence, resid information should<BR>be present.<BR><BR>It would be good to 
  maintain consistent behaviour across the scsi<BR>transports in this regard, 
  since protocol bridging from iscsi to FCP<BR>domain would expect RESID 
  information in the FCP domain, regardless of<BR>scsi status.<BR><BR>This also 
  allows scsi transports to remain free of SCSI command set<BR>details. (ex : 
  the scsi transport drivers do not need to parse for CHECK<BR>CONDITION or GOO 
  status 
  information.)<BR><BR>Thanks,<BR>Santosh<BR><BR><BR>-------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Subject: 
  Re: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues<BR>Date: &nbsp; &nbsp;Thu, 1 Aug 2002 02:52:19 
  +0300<BR>From: &nbsp; "Julian Satran" &lt;Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com&gt;<BR>To: 
  &nbsp; &nbsp; "Robert D. Russell" &lt;rdr@io.iol.unh.edu&gt;<BR>CC: &nbsp; 
  &nbsp; ips@ece.cmu.edu<BR><BR>Bob, <BR><BR>Thanks - some comments in text. 
  Julo <BR><BR><BR>"Robert D. Russell" &lt;rdr@io.iol.unh.edu&gt; <BR>&nbsp; 
  &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 
  &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 
  <BR>Julian:<BR><BR>Four issues came up today at the iSCSI plugfest:<BR><BR>1. 
  A question about whether or not the Residual Count field and 
  the<BR>appropriate O and U bits need to be computed on all SCSI 
  Response<BR>PDUs, regardless of the values in the Status and/or Response 
  fields.<BR><BR>One point of view says that the Residual Count field and the O 
  and U<BR>bits appear to be strictly iSCSI values that are derived by 
  the<BR>iSCSI target layer from the ExpectedDataTransferLength field of 
  the<BR>SCSI Command PDU and the DataSegmentLength fields of the DataIn 
  or<BR>DataOut PDUs sent as part of this command. &nbsp;Therefore ,the 
  iSCSI<BR>target always computes a Residual Count value without regard to 
  the<BR>Status and/or Response fields, since these are SCSI values.<BR><BR>The 
  other point of view says that the Residual Count field, and the<BR>O and U 
  bits, need only be set when the Status and Response fields<BR>indicate that 
  the command was completed at the target with a GOOD<BR>Status, and the target 
  does not have to compute or set the Residual<BR>Count field and the O or U 
  bits for other values of the Status and/or<BR>Response fields.<BR><BR>Which is 
  it? &nbsp;In any case, could this be clarified somewhere in the<BR>standard, 
  most likely in section 9.4.4.<BR><BR>+++ Residual count fields are in fact 
  carrioed over from the SCSI layer.<BR>I know that none of the SCSI docs 
  specifies<BR>exactly their behavior and it strikes me as a bad idea to have 
  protocols<BR>specify them. <BR>The values should be valid any time the target 
  decides to put them in. <BR>+++</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" 
  size=3><BR></FONT><FONT face="Courier New" 
  size=2><BR><BR>-------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>Subject: 
  RE: FCP_RSP Residual Checking.<BR>Date: &nbsp; &nbsp;Thu, 5 Jul 2001 13:18:42 
  -0700<BR>From: &nbsp; &nbsp;Robert Snively &lt;rsnively@brocade.com&gt;<BR>To: 
  &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;"'Santosh Rao'" &lt;santoshr@cup.hp.com&gt;, <BR>&nbsp; 
  &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;T10 Reflector &lt;t10@t10.org&gt;, <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; 
  &nbsp; &nbsp;Fibre Channel T11 reflector &lt;fc@network.com&gt;<BR><BR>Robert 
  Snively wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;Is the target required to 
  initialize the fields FCP_RESID_UNDER,<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;FCP_RESID_OVER &amp; 
  FCP_RESID when any I/O is completed<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;without the data phase 
  having transferred exactly<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;FCP_DL bytes, regardless of the 
  SCSI Status being returned ?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;When the target 
  generates a CHECK CONDITION on an I/O<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;and may have returned 
  less than FCP_DL bytes in the data<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;phase for that I/O, is 
  it<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;required to set the FCP_RESID_UNDER to 1 and indicate 
  the number of<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;bytes not transferred in the FCP_RESID 
  field?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; The intent is that the answer to your second question 
  is:<BR>&gt; FCP_RESID should appropriately regardless of the SCSI 
  Status<BR>&gt; being returned. &nbsp;The classic errors of that class are 
  those<BR>&gt; involving successful completion with reporting, like<BR>&gt; the 
  "NO SENSE" and "RECOVERED ERROR" series of errors.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; 
  &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;What is the behaviour initiators can expect under the 
  above<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;condition ?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; The intent is that there 
  be no conflict. &nbsp;I believe that FCP-2<BR>&gt; was a bit less bald than 
  FC-PLDA in stating the requirement.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;Is there a 
  conflict in the behaviours described by FCP/FCP-2<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;&amp; 
  FC-PLDA ?<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Bob Snively &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 
  &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;e-mail: &nbsp; 
  &nbsp;rsnively@brocade.com<BR>&gt; Brocade Communications Systems &nbsp; 
  &nbsp; phone: &nbsp;408 487 8135<BR>&gt; 1745 Technology Drive<BR>&gt; San 
  Jose, CA 95110<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;-----Original Message-----<BR>&gt; 
  &gt; &nbsp;From: Santosh Rao [mailto:santoshr@cup.hp.com]<BR>&gt; &gt; 
  &nbsp;Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 12:15 PM<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;To: T10 
  Reflector; Fibre Channel T11 reflector<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;Subject: FCP_RSP 
  Residual Checking.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;All,<BR>&gt; 
  &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;I've got a question on target behaviour while sending 
  a</FONT> <BR><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;CHECK 
  CONDITION<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;SCSI status in its FCP_RSP IU.<BR>&gt; 
  &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;Is the target required to initialize the fields 
  FCP_RESID_UNDER,<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;FCP_RESID_OVER &amp; FCP_RESID when any 
  I/O is completed without the data<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;phase having transferred 
  exactly FCP_DL bytes, regardless of the SCSI<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;Status being 
  returned ?<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;When the target generates a CHECK 
  CONDITION on an I/O and may have<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;returned less than FCP_DL 
  bytes in the data phase for that I/O, is it<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;required to set 
  the FCP_RESID_UNDER to 1 and indicate the number of<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;bytes 
  not transferred in the FCP_RESID field?<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; 
  &nbsp;FC-PLDA Section 8.2.4.1 states that :<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;"SCSI targets 
  that transfer less than FCP_DL bytes during<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;the 
  FCP_DATA<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;IUs shall set the FCP_RESID_UNDER to 1".<BR>&gt; 
  &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;No exceptions are specified in the case of a CHECK 
  CONDITION in the<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;above definition, implying that FCP_RSP 
  residual checking can be<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;performed irrespective of the SCSI 
  Status that was returned in the<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;FCP_RSP.<BR>&gt; 
  &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;However, the wording descriptions of 
  FCP_RESID_UNDER,<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;FCP_RESID_OVER &amp;<BR>&gt; &gt; 
  &nbsp;FCP_RESID in SCSI-FCP &amp; FCP-2 are not as stringent as<BR>&gt; &gt; 
  &nbsp;FC-PLDA and do not<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;mandate that FCP_RESID_UNDER shall 
  be set when the data<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;transferred is &lt;<BR>&gt; &gt; 
  &nbsp;FCP_DL.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;What is the behaviour initiators 
  can expect under the above<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;condition ?<BR>&gt; &gt; 
  &nbsp;Is there a conflict in the behaviours described by FCP/FCP-2<BR>&gt; 
  &gt; &nbsp;&amp; FC-PLDA ?<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;Thanks,<BR>&gt; 
  &gt; &nbsp;Santosh Rao<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR><BR>-- <BR>Education is when you read 
  the fine print. <BR>Experience is what you get if you don't.</FONT><FONT 
  face="Times New Roman" 
size=3><BR><BR></FONT><BR><BR></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Fri Aug  2 19:32:18 2002
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From: Black_David@emc.com
To: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: iSCSI consensus calls
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 19:26:53 -0400 
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Cleaning up some issues to prepare for WG Last Call ...

On July 24th, I posted the proposed resolution of issues
discussed in Yokohama to the list.  Having seen no
further list discussion, I believe the rough consensus of
the IPS WG is to follow the sense of the discussion
in Yokohama, specifically:

(1) No support for long-lived discovery sessions.
(2) Decimal encoding only for binary items whose
	values always fit in 64 bits.
(3) Must accept at least 8k of text in negotiation.
(4) No ErrorRecoveryLevel 0.5.  MAY try ERL 1
	mechanisms after negotiating ERL 0, but MUST
	be prepared for them to fail.
(5) Remove BidiInitialR2T key.
(6) Data resegmentation only via a new R-Data
	SNACK that always sends a new SCSI Response.
	SNACK tag associates new response with SNACK.

On the other hand, since the use of Irrelevant has
caused interoperability problems at the plugfest, I don't
think the "just put in examples" direction from Yokohama
will suffice - I believe this issue to be open.

On SRP, based on the proof of primality of the SRP primes
and subsequent discussion, I believe the rough consensus of
the IPS WG is:
	- Negotiate SRP_GROUP instead of announcing the prime
		and generator.
	- The largest required group is 1536 bits.
	- The SRP groups/primes will be used up to 2048 bits, the
		IKE MODP groups/primes will be used for larger sizes.
For the latter, computational efficiency issues have been raised
for both the SRP groups (prime format) and the IKE MODP groups
(generator != 2 for SRP).  I believe this situation does not
provide a solid reason to change from the default of using the
groups that are commonly used with SRP.  Paul Koning's objection
to the rough consensus on this item is noted.

Thanks,
--David

---------------------------------------------------
David L. Black, Senior Technologist
EMC Corporation, 42 South St., Hopkinton, MA  01748
+1 (508) 249-6449            FAX: +1 (508) 497-8018
black_david@emc.com       Mobile: +1 (978) 394-7754
---------------------------------------------------


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Sat Aug  3 02:12:43 2002
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To: Black_David@emc.com
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MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: Re: iSCSI consensus calls
X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.9  November 16, 2001
From: "Julian Satran" <Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com>
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David,

For irrelevant we have new wording in the text.
I guess the list may want to comment.  I did not hear a word not even from 
the plugfest participants!
I did not hear comments on the registry process either. 

Julo






Black_David@emc.com
Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
08/03/2002 02:26 AM

 
        To:     ips@ece.cmu.edu
        cc: 
        Subject:        iSCSI consensus calls

 

Cleaning up some issues to prepare for WG Last Call ...

On July 24th, I posted the proposed resolution of issues
discussed in Yokohama to the list.  Having seen no
further list discussion, I believe the rough consensus of
the IPS WG is to follow the sense of the discussion
in Yokohama, specifically:

(1) No support for long-lived discovery sessions.
(2) Decimal encoding only for binary items whose
                 values always fit in 64 bits.
(3) Must accept at least 8k of text in negotiation.
(4) No ErrorRecoveryLevel 0.5.  MAY try ERL 1
                 mechanisms after negotiating ERL 0, but MUST
                 be prepared for them to fail.
(5) Remove BidiInitialR2T key.
(6) Data resegmentation only via a new R-Data
                 SNACK that always sends a new SCSI Response.
                 SNACK tag associates new response with SNACK.

On the other hand, since the use of Irrelevant has
caused interoperability problems at the plugfest, I don't
think the "just put in examples" direction from Yokohama
will suffice - I believe this issue to be open.

On SRP, based on the proof of primality of the SRP primes
and subsequent discussion, I believe the rough consensus of
the IPS WG is:
                 - Negotiate SRP_GROUP instead of announcing the prime
                                 and generator.
                 - The largest required group is 1536 bits.
                 - The SRP groups/primes will be used up to 2048 bits, the
                                 IKE MODP groups/primes will be used for 
larger sizes.
For the latter, computational efficiency issues have been raised
for both the SRP groups (prime format) and the IKE MODP groups
(generator != 2 for SRP).  I believe this situation does not
provide a solid reason to change from the default of using the
groups that are commonly used with SRP.  Paul Koning's objection
to the rough consensus on this item is noted.

Thanks,
--David

---------------------------------------------------
David L. Black, Senior Technologist
EMC Corporation, 42 South St., Hopkinton, MA  01748
+1 (508) 249-6449            FAX: +1 (508) 497-8018
black_david@emc.com       Mobile: +1 (978) 394-7754
---------------------------------------------------



--=_alternative 001E4AABC2256C0A_=
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"


<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">David,</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">For irrelevant we have new wording in the text.</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">I guess the list may want to comment. &nbsp;I did not hear a word not even from the plugfest participants!</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">I did not hear comments on the registry process either. &nbsp;</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Julo</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>Black_David@emc.com</b></font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu</font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">08/03/2002 02:26 AM</font>
<br>
<td><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;ips@ece.cmu.edu</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;iSCSI consensus calls</font>
<br>
<br><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font></table>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">Cleaning up some issues to prepare for WG Last Call ...<br>
<br>
On July 24th, I posted the proposed resolution of issues<br>
discussed in Yokohama to the list. &nbsp;Having seen no<br>
further list discussion, I believe the rough consensus of<br>
the IPS WG is to follow the sense of the discussion<br>
in Yokohama, specifically:<br>
<br>
(1) No support for long-lived discovery sessions.<br>
(2) Decimal encoding only for binary items whose<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; values always fit in 64 bits.<br>
(3) Must accept at least 8k of text in negotiation.<br>
(4) No ErrorRecoveryLevel 0.5. &nbsp;MAY try ERL 1<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; mechanisms after negotiating ERL 0, but MUST<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; be prepared for them to fail.<br>
(5) Remove BidiInitialR2T key.<br>
(6) Data resegmentation only via a new R-Data<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; SNACK that always sends a new SCSI Response.<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; SNACK tag associates new response with SNACK.<br>
<br>
On the other hand, since the use of Irrelevant has<br>
caused interoperability problems at the plugfest, I don't<br>
think the &quot;just put in examples&quot; direction from Yokohama<br>
will suffice - I believe this issue to be open.<br>
<br>
On SRP, based on the proof of primality of the SRP primes<br>
and subsequent discussion, I believe the rough consensus of<br>
the IPS WG is:<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; - Negotiate SRP_GROUP instead of announcing the prime<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;and generator.<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; - The largest required group is 1536 bits.<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; - The SRP groups/primes will be used up to 2048 bits, the<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;IKE MODP groups/primes will be used for larger sizes.<br>
For the latter, computational efficiency issues have been raised<br>
for both the SRP groups (prime format) and the IKE MODP groups<br>
(generator != 2 for SRP). &nbsp;I believe this situation does not<br>
provide a solid reason to change from the default of using the<br>
groups that are commonly used with SRP. &nbsp;Paul Koning's objection<br>
to the rough consensus on this item is noted.<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
--David<br>
<br>
---------------------------------------------------<br>
David L. Black, Senior Technologist<br>
EMC Corporation, 42 South St., Hopkinton, MA &nbsp;01748<br>
+1 (508) 249-6449 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;FAX: +1 (508) 497-8018<br>
black_david@emc.com &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Mobile: +1 (978) 394-7754<br>
---------------------------------------------------<br>
</font>
<br>
<br>
--=_alternative 001E4AABC2256C0A_=--


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Sat Aug  3 02:16:24 2002
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To: Black_David@emc.com
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: RE: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues
X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.9  November 16, 2001
From: "Julian Satran" <Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com>
Message-ID: <OFC04DA2F5.A34C1C21-ONC2256C0A.0018BD82@telaviv.ibm.com>
Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 08:13:37 +0300
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David,

We are in violent agreement. SPC3 is explicit about counts only when 
talking about extended copy.
The only thing I find objectionable is to tell the initiator when to CHECK 
(that is a device class/device/driver issue).
Some devices for some commands will generate CHECK CONDITION BECAUSE they 
have a residual count.

That is why I would suggest the following text:

The Residual Count field MUST be valid in the case where either the U bit 
or the O bit is set. If neither bit is set, the Residual Count field is 
reserved. Targets may set residual count and initiators may use it when 
the response code is completed at target. If the O bit is set, the 
Residual Count indicates the number of bytes that were not transferred 
because the initiator's Expected Data Transfer Length was not sufficient. 
If the U bit is set, the Residual Count indicates the number of bytes that 
were not transferred out of the number of bytes expected to be 
transferred.

Julo




Black_David@emc.com
08/03/2002 01:50 AM

 
        To:     Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL
        cc:     ips@ece.cmu.edu
        Subject:        RE: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues

 

Julian,
 
Matching FCP's wording resulted in a "go ask the expert" algorithm
for figuring out what is required - we ought to do better, and this
is an iSCSI protocol issue.  What I'm looking for in 9.4 is:
 
- Bits 3-6 (o, u, O, U) MAY be set by the Target and SHOULD be checked
    by the Initiator when the Response is "Command Completed at Target"
    no matter what the value of the Status field is.
- SCSI permits Residual Counts to be returned for Status values other
    than GOOD; see [SPC2].
 
I believe that both of these are implied by the current text, but since
this caused confusion at the plugfest, we ought to spell it out.
 
Thanks,
--David
---------------------------------------------------
David L. Black, Senior Technologist
EMC Corporation, 42 South St., Hopkinton, MA  01748
+1 (508) 249-6449            FAX: +1 (508) 497-8018
black_david@emc.com       Mobile: +1 (978) 394-7754
---------------------------------------------------
-----Original Message-----
From: Julian Satran [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]
Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 1:43 AM
To: Black_David@emc.com
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues


David, 

We DO EXACTLY what FCP did  - say nothing. 
I went through the document - thetre is no relation mentioned and that is 
what we do too. 

In any case we cannot enforce a SCSI behavior. 
The expectation is obvious that if SCSI hands obver counts those will be 
carried by iSCSI. 

I also suspect that the trouble may be deeper than we think and I find it 
much more prudent 
to say nothing (again as FCP did). 

Julo 




Black_David@emc.com 
08/01/2002 05:56 PM 
        
        To:        Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL 
        cc:        ips@ece.cmu.edu 
        Subject:        RE: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues 

 


Julian, 
  
I think we need to do something here, as there are clearly 
situations in which the residual count is important for commands that 
complete with other than good status, making the "other point of 
view" reported by Robert Russell incorrect.  Waiting for SPC-3 to 
do something to clarify this isn't going to do much for iSCSI 
interoperability in the short term.  Since Bob Snively was the 
Technical Editor of FCP-2, he tends to be correct about what FCP-2 
requires or intends - I suggest we follow FCP-2, and say that the 
O/o/U/u bits are valid in all cases (of course, if none of them 
are set, the Residual Count field is not valid). 
  
Thanks, 
--David 
---------------------------------------------------
David L. Black, Senior Technologist
EMC Corporation, 42 South St., Hopkinton, MA  01748
+1 (508) 249-6449            FAX: +1 (508) 497-8018
black_david@emc.com       Mobile: +1 (978) 394-7754
--------------------------------------------------- 
-----Original Message-----
From: Julian Satran [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 3:26 AM
To: Santosh Rao
Cc: IPS Reflector; rdr@io.iol.unh.edu; Robert Snively; 
santoshr@hpcuhe.cup.hp.com; T10 Reflector
Subject: Re: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues


Santosh, 

I think that this behaviour should be specified by SPC3. I looked (again) 
into the FCP docs and like iSCSI they do not say anything beyond 
iSCSI says. Like iSCSI they specify that the field is valid when the Oo/Uu 
bits are set but nothing about how those bits relate to status. 
SPC says nothing about that either  (beyond that the bits set are not 
necessarily an indication of error). 

Julo 


Santosh Rao <santoshr@cup.hp.com> 
Sent by: santoshr@hpcuhe.cup.hp.com 
08/01/2002 03:44 AM 
        
       To:        IPS Reflector <ips@ece.cmu.edu>, Julian 
Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL, rdr@io.iol.unh.edu 
       cc:        Robert Snively <rsnively@brocade.com>, T10 Reflector 
<t10@t10.org> 
       Subject:        Re: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues 

 



Julian & Robert [Russell],

I raised the same query regarding RESID for FCP/FCP-2 this time last
year. The response I got for FCP/FCP-2 was that RESID information shall
be valid, regardless of the scsi status returned. The RESID field, can
be checked by the scsi transport drivers independent of the SCSI STATUS.

I have enclosed the T10 response from Rob Snivelly below on that issue.
As per FC-PLDA, the RESID information is valid, regardless of the scsi
status returned by the device. 

An example of this is the case of "NO SENSE" or "RECOVERED ERROR" check
condition, when the data transfer may have taken place and a CHECK
CONDITION is returned. Also, for other CHECK CONDITION status', partial
data transfer may have taken place and hence, resid information should
be present.

It would be good to maintain consistent behaviour across the scsi
transports in this regard, since protocol bridging from iscsi to FCP
domain would expect RESID information in the FCP domain, regardless of
scsi status.

This also allows scsi transports to remain free of SCSI command set
details. (ex : the scsi transport drivers do not need to parse for CHECK
CONDITION or GOO status information.)

Thanks,
Santosh


-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues
Date:    Thu, 1 Aug 2002 02:52:19 +0300
From:   "Julian Satran" <Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com>
To:     "Robert D. Russell" <rdr@io.iol.unh.edu>
CC:     ips@ece.cmu.edu

Bob, 

Thanks - some comments in text. Julo 


"Robert D. Russell" <rdr@io.iol.unh.edu> 
 
Julian:

Four issues came up today at the iSCSI plugfest:

1. A question about whether or not the Residual Count field and the
appropriate O and U bits need to be computed on all SCSI Response
PDUs, regardless of the values in the Status and/or Response fields.

One point of view says that the Residual Count field and the O and U
bits appear to be strictly iSCSI values that are derived by the
iSCSI target layer from the ExpectedDataTransferLength field of the
SCSI Command PDU and the DataSegmentLength fields of the DataIn or
DataOut PDUs sent as part of this command.  Therefore ,the iSCSI
target always computes a Residual Count value without regard to the
Status and/or Response fields, since these are SCSI values.

The other point of view says that the Residual Count field, and the
O and U bits, need only be set when the Status and Response fields
indicate that the command was completed at the target with a GOOD
Status, and the target does not have to compute or set the Residual
Count field and the O or U bits for other values of the Status and/or
Response fields.

Which is it?  In any case, could this be clarified somewhere in the
standard, most likely in section 9.4.4.

+++ Residual count fields are in fact carrioed over from the SCSI layer.
I know that none of the SCSI docs specifies
exactly their behavior and it strikes me as a bad idea to have protocols
specify them. 
The values should be valid any time the target decides to put them in. 
+++


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: RE: FCP_RSP Residual Checking.
Date:    Thu, 5 Jul 2001 13:18:42 -0700
From:    Robert Snively <rsnively@brocade.com>
To:      "'Santosh Rao'" <santoshr@cup.hp.com>, 
       T10 Reflector <t10@t10.org>, 
       Fibre Channel T11 reflector <fc@network.com>

Robert Snively wrote:
> 
> >  Is the target required to initialize the fields FCP_RESID_UNDER,
> >  FCP_RESID_OVER & FCP_RESID when any I/O is completed
> >  without the data phase having transferred exactly
> >  FCP_DL bytes, regardless of the SCSI Status being returned ?
> 
> >  When the target generates a CHECK CONDITION on an I/O
> >  and may have returned less than FCP_DL bytes in the data
> >  phase for that I/O, is it
> >  required to set the FCP_RESID_UNDER to 1 and indicate the number of
> >  bytes not transferred in the FCP_RESID field?
> 
> The intent is that the answer to your second question is:
> FCP_RESID should appropriately regardless of the SCSI Status
> being returned.  The classic errors of that class are those
> involving successful completion with reporting, like
> the "NO SENSE" and "RECOVERED ERROR" series of errors.
> 
> >
> >  What is the behaviour initiators can expect under the above
> >  condition ?
> 
> The intent is that there be no conflict.  I believe that FCP-2
> was a bit less bald than FC-PLDA in stating the requirement.
> 
> >  Is there a conflict in the behaviours described by FCP/FCP-2
> >  & FC-PLDA ?
> >
> 
> Bob Snively                        e-mail:    rsnively@brocade.com
> Brocade Communications Systems     phone:  408 487 8135
> 1745 Technology Drive
> San Jose, CA 95110
> 
> >  -----Original Message-----
> >  From: Santosh Rao [mailto:santoshr@cup.hp.com]
> >  Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 12:15 PM
> >  To: T10 Reflector; Fibre Channel T11 reflector
> >  Subject: FCP_RSP Residual Checking.
> >
> >
> >  All,
> >
> >  I've got a question on target behaviour while sending a 
> >  CHECK CONDITION
> >  SCSI status in its FCP_RSP IU.
> >
> >  Is the target required to initialize the fields FCP_RESID_UNDER,
> >  FCP_RESID_OVER & FCP_RESID when any I/O is completed without the data
> >  phase having transferred exactly FCP_DL bytes, regardless of the SCSI
> >  Status being returned ?
> >
> >  When the target generates a CHECK CONDITION on an I/O and may have
> >  returned less than FCP_DL bytes in the data phase for that I/O, is it
> >  required to set the FCP_RESID_UNDER to 1 and indicate the number of
> >  bytes not transferred in the FCP_RESID field?
> >
> >  FC-PLDA Section 8.2.4.1 states that :
> >  "SCSI targets that transfer less than FCP_DL bytes during
> >  the FCP_DATA
> >  IUs shall set the FCP_RESID_UNDER to 1".
> >
> >  No exceptions are specified in the case of a CHECK CONDITION in the
> >  above definition, implying that FCP_RSP residual checking can be
> >  performed irrespective of the SCSI Status that was returned in the
> >  FCP_RSP.
> >
> >  However, the wording descriptions of FCP_RESID_UNDER,
> >  FCP_RESID_OVER &
> >  FCP_RESID in SCSI-FCP & FCP-2 are not as stringent as
> >  FC-PLDA and do not
> >  mandate that FCP_RESID_UNDER shall be set when the data
> >  transferred is <
> >  FCP_DL.
> >
> >  What is the behaviour initiators can expect under the above
> >  condition ?
> >  Is there a conflict in the behaviours described by FCP/FCP-2
> >  & FC-PLDA ?
> >
> >  Thanks,
> >  Santosh Rao
> >

-- 
Education is when you read the fine print. 
Experience is what you get if you don't.





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<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">David,</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">We are in violent agreement. SPC3 is explicit about counts only when talking about extended copy.</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">The only thing I find objectionable is to tell the initiator when to CHECK (that is a device class/device/driver issue).</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Some devices for some commands will generate CHECK CONDITION BECAUSE they have a residual count.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">That is why I would suggest the following text:</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="Courier New">The Residual Count field MUST be valid in the case where either the U bit or the O bit is set. If neither bit is set, the Residual Count field is reserved. Targets may set residual count and initiators may use it when the response code is completed at target. If the O bit is set, the Residual Count indicates the number of bytes that were not transferred because the initiator's Expected Data Transfer Length was not sufficient. If the U bit is set, the Residual Count indicates the number of bytes that were not transferred out of the number of bytes expected to be transferred.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="Courier New">Julo</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>Black_David@emc.com</b></font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">08/03/2002 01:50 AM</font>
<br>
<td><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;ips@ece.cmu.edu</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;RE: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues</font>
<br>
<br><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font></table>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">Julian,</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">Matching FCP's wording resulted in a &quot;go ask the expert&quot; algorithm</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">for figuring out what is required - we ought to do better, and this</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">is an iSCSI protocol issue. &nbsp;What I'm looking for in 9.4 is:</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">- Bits 3-6 (o, u, O, U) MAY be set by the Target and SHOULD be checked</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">&nbsp; &nbsp; by the Initiator when the Response is &quot;Command Completed at Target&quot;</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">&nbsp; &nbsp; no matter what the value of the Status field is.</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">- SCSI permits Residual Counts to be returned for Status values other</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">&nbsp; &nbsp; than GOOD; see [SPC2].</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">I believe that both of these are implied by the current text, but since</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">this caused confusion at the plugfest, we ought to spell it out.</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">Thanks,</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">--David</font>
<p><font size=2 face="Courier New">---------------------------------------------------<br>
David L. Black, Senior Technologist<br>
EMC Corporation, 42 South St., Hopkinton, MA &nbsp;01748<br>
+1 (508) 249-6449 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;FAX: +1 (508) 497-8018<br>
black_david@emc.com &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Mobile: +1 (978) 394-7754<br>
---------------------------------------------------</font>
<p><font size=2 face="Tahoma">-----Original Message-----<b><br>
From:</b> Julian Satran [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]<b><br>
Sent:</b> Friday, August 02, 2002 1:43 AM<b><br>
To:</b> Black_David@emc.com<b><br>
Cc:</b> ips@ece.cmu.edu<b><br>
Subject:</b> RE: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues<br>
</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
David,</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
</font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
We DO EXACTLY what FCP did &nbsp;- say nothing.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
I went through the document - thetre is no relation mentioned and that is what we do too.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
</font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
In any case we cannot enforce a SCSI behavior.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
The expectation is obvious that if SCSI hands obver counts those will be carried by iSCSI.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
</font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
I also suspect that the trouble may be deeper than we think and I find it much more prudent <br>
to say nothing (again as FCP did).</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
</font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
Julo</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
<br>
<br>
</font>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td width=3%>
<td width=37%><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>Black_David@emc.com</b></font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">08/01/2002 05:56 PM</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<td width=59%><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </font><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;ips@ece.cmu.edu</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;RE: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
</font><font size=1 face="Arial"><br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </font></table>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><br>
</font><font size=2 face="Courier New"><br>
Julian,</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
 &nbsp;</font><font size=2 face="Courier New"><br>
I think we need to do something here, as there are clearly</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Courier New"><br>
situations in which the residual count is important for commands that</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Courier New"><br>
complete with other than good status, making the &quot;other point of</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Courier New"><br>
view&quot; reported by Robert Russell incorrect. &nbsp;Waiting for SPC-3 to</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Courier New"><br>
do something to clarify this isn't going to do much for iSCSI</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Courier New"><br>
interoperability in the short term. &nbsp;Since Bob Snively was the</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Courier New"><br>
Technical Editor of FCP-2, he tends to be correct about what FCP-2</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Courier New"><br>
requires or intends - I suggest we follow FCP-2, and say that the</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Courier New"><br>
O/o/U/u bits are valid in all cases (of course, if none of them</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Courier New"><br>
are set, the Residual Count field is not valid).</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
 &nbsp;</font><font size=2 face="Courier New"><br>
Thanks,</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Courier New"><br>
--David</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<p><font size=2 face="Courier New">---------------------------------------------------<br>
David L. Black, Senior Technologist<br>
EMC Corporation, 42 South St., Hopkinton, MA &nbsp;01748<br>
+1 (508) 249-6449 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;FAX: +1 (508) 497-8018<br>
black_david@emc.com &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Mobile: +1 (978) 394-7754<br>
---------------------------------------------------</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<p><font size=2 face="Tahoma">-----Original Message-----<b><br>
From:</b> Julian Satran [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]<b><br>
Sent:</b> Thursday, August 01, 2002 3:26 AM<b><br>
To:</b> Santosh Rao<b><br>
Cc:</b> IPS Reflector; rdr@io.iol.unh.edu; Robert Snively; santoshr@hpcuhe.cup.hp.com; T10 Reflector<b><br>
Subject:</b> Re: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><br>
</font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
<br>
Santosh,</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
<br>
I think that this behaviour should be specified by SPC3. I looked (again) into the FCP docs and like iSCSI they do not say anything beyond</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
iSCSI says. Like iSCSI they specify that the field is valid when the Oo/Uu bits are set but nothing about how those bits relate to status.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
SPC says nothing about that either &nbsp;(beyond that the bits set are not necessarily an indication of error). <br>
<br>
Julo</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
</font>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td width=1%>
<td width=31%><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>Santosh Rao &lt;santoshr@cup.hp.com&gt;</b></font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><br>
Sent by: santoshr@hpcuhe.cup.hp.com</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">08/01/2002 03:44 AM</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<td width=67%><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </font><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;IPS Reflector &lt;ips@ece.cmu.edu&gt;, Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL, rdr@io.iol.unh.edu</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Robert Snively &lt;rsnively@brocade.com&gt;, T10 Reflector &lt;t10@t10.org&gt;</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Re: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=1 face="Arial"><br>
<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font></table>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><br>
</font><font size=2 face="Courier New"><br>
<br>
Julian &amp; Robert [Russell],<br>
<br>
I raised the same query regarding RESID for FCP/FCP-2 this time last<br>
year. The response I got for FCP/FCP-2 was that RESID information shall<br>
be valid, regardless of the scsi status returned. The RESID field, can<br>
be checked by the scsi transport drivers independent of the SCSI STATUS.<br>
<br>
I have enclosed the T10 response from Rob Snivelly below on that issue.<br>
As per FC-PLDA, the RESID information is valid, regardless of the scsi<br>
status returned by the device. <br>
<br>
An example of this is the case of &quot;NO SENSE&quot; or &quot;RECOVERED ERROR&quot; check<br>
condition, when the data transfer may have taken place and a CHECK<br>
CONDITION is returned. Also, for other CHECK CONDITION status', partial<br>
data transfer may have taken place and hence, resid information should<br>
be present.<br>
<br>
It would be good to maintain consistent behaviour across the scsi<br>
transports in this regard, since protocol bridging from iscsi to FCP<br>
domain would expect RESID information in the FCP domain, regardless of<br>
scsi status.<br>
<br>
This also allows scsi transports to remain free of SCSI command set<br>
details. (ex : the scsi transport drivers do not need to parse for CHECK<br>
CONDITION or GOO status information.)<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
Santosh<br>
<br>
<br>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Subject: Re: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues<br>
Date: &nbsp; &nbsp;Thu, 1 Aug 2002 02:52:19 +0300<br>
From: &nbsp; &quot;Julian Satran&quot; &lt;Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com&gt;<br>
To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &quot;Robert D. Russell&quot; &lt;rdr@io.iol.unh.edu&gt;<br>
CC: &nbsp; &nbsp; ips@ece.cmu.edu<br>
<br>
Bob, <br>
<br>
Thanks - some comments in text. Julo <br>
<br>
<br>
&quot;Robert D. Russell&quot; &lt;rdr@io.iol.unh.edu&gt; <br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
Julian:<br>
<br>
Four issues came up today at the iSCSI plugfest:<br>
<br>
1. A question about whether or not the Residual Count field and the<br>
appropriate O and U bits need to be computed on all SCSI Response<br>
PDUs, regardless of the values in the Status and/or Response fields.<br>
<br>
One point of view says that the Residual Count field and the O and U<br>
bits appear to be strictly iSCSI values that are derived by the<br>
iSCSI target layer from the ExpectedDataTransferLength field of the<br>
SCSI Command PDU and the DataSegmentLength fields of the DataIn or<br>
DataOut PDUs sent as part of this command. &nbsp;Therefore ,the iSCSI<br>
target always computes a Residual Count value without regard to the<br>
Status and/or Response fields, since these are SCSI values.<br>
<br>
The other point of view says that the Residual Count field, and the<br>
O and U bits, need only be set when the Status and Response fields<br>
indicate that the command was completed at the target with a GOOD<br>
Status, and the target does not have to compute or set the Residual<br>
Count field and the O or U bits for other values of the Status and/or<br>
Response fields.<br>
<br>
Which is it? &nbsp;In any case, could this be clarified somewhere in the<br>
standard, most likely in section 9.4.4.<br>
<br>
+++ Residual count fields are in fact carrioed over from the SCSI layer.</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">I know that none of the SCSI docs specifies<br>
exactly their behavior and it strikes me as a bad idea to have protocols<br>
specify them. <br>
The values should be valid any time the target decides to put them in. <br>
+++<br>
<br>
<br>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
Subject: RE: FCP_RSP Residual Checking.<br>
Date: &nbsp; &nbsp;Thu, 5 Jul 2001 13:18:42 -0700<br>
From: &nbsp; &nbsp;Robert Snively &lt;rsnively@brocade.com&gt;<br>
To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&quot;'Santosh Rao'&quot; &lt;santoshr@cup.hp.com&gt;, <br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; T10 Reflector &lt;t10@t10.org&gt;, <br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Fibre Channel T11 reflector &lt;fc@network.com&gt;<br>
<br>
Robert Snively wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;Is the target required to initialize the fields FCP_RESID_UNDER,<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;FCP_RESID_OVER &amp; FCP_RESID when any I/O is completed<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;without the data phase having transferred exactly<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;FCP_DL bytes, regardless of the SCSI Status being returned ?<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;When the target generates a CHECK CONDITION on an I/O<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;and may have returned less than FCP_DL bytes in the data<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;phase for that I/O, is it<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;required to set the FCP_RESID_UNDER to 1 and indicate the number of<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;bytes not transferred in the FCP_RESID field?<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; The intent is that the answer to your second question is:<br>
&gt; FCP_RESID should appropriately regardless of the SCSI Status<br>
&gt; being returned. &nbsp;The classic errors of that class are those<br>
&gt; involving successful completion with reporting, like<br>
&gt; the &quot;NO SENSE&quot; and &quot;RECOVERED ERROR&quot; series of errors.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;What is the behaviour initiators can expect under the above<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;condition ?<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; The intent is that there be no conflict. &nbsp;I believe that FCP-2<br>
&gt; was a bit less bald than FC-PLDA in stating the requirement.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;Is there a conflict in the behaviours described by FCP/FCP-2<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;&amp; FC-PLDA ?<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Bob Snively &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;e-mail: &nbsp; &nbsp;rsnively@brocade.com<br>
&gt; Brocade Communications Systems &nbsp; &nbsp; phone: &nbsp;408 487 8135<br>
&gt; 1745 Technology Drive<br>
&gt; San Jose, CA 95110<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;-----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;From: Santosh Rao [mailto:santoshr@cup.hp.com]<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 12:15 PM<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;To: T10 Reflector; Fibre Channel T11 reflector<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;Subject: FCP_RSP Residual Checking.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;All,<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;I've got a question on target behaviour while sending a</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Courier New"><br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;CHECK CONDITION<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;SCSI status in its FCP_RSP IU.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;Is the target required to initialize the fields FCP_RESID_UNDER,<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;FCP_RESID_OVER &amp; FCP_RESID when any I/O is completed without the data<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;phase having transferred exactly FCP_DL bytes, regardless of the SCSI<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;Status being returned ?<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;When the target generates a CHECK CONDITION on an I/O and may have<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;returned less than FCP_DL bytes in the data phase for that I/O, is it<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;required to set the FCP_RESID_UNDER to 1 and indicate the number of<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;bytes not transferred in the FCP_RESID field?<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;FC-PLDA Section 8.2.4.1 states that :<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;&quot;SCSI targets that transfer less than FCP_DL bytes during<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;the FCP_DATA<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;IUs shall set the FCP_RESID_UNDER to 1&quot;.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;No exceptions are specified in the case of a CHECK CONDITION in the<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;above definition, implying that FCP_RSP residual checking can be<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;performed irrespective of the SCSI Status that was returned in the<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;FCP_RSP.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;However, the wording descriptions of FCP_RESID_UNDER,<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;FCP_RESID_OVER &amp;<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;FCP_RESID in SCSI-FCP &amp; FCP-2 are not as stringent as<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;FC-PLDA and do not<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;mandate that FCP_RESID_UNDER shall be set when the data<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;transferred is &lt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;FCP_DL.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;What is the behaviour initiators can expect under the above<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;condition ?<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;Is there a conflict in the behaviours described by FCP/FCP-2<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;&amp; FC-PLDA ?<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;Thanks,<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;Santosh Rao<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Education is when you read the fine print. <br>
Experience is what you get if you don't.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><br>
<br>
<br>
</font>
<br>
<br>
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From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Sat Aug  3 12:02:45 2002
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From: "Robert D. Russell" <rdr@io.iol.unh.edu>
To: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: iSCSI: CHAP
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Julian:

Section 10.5 is written in terms of initiator and target, rather
than originator and responder as in section 7.2.1.  I believe this
is intentional (i.e., that section 10.5 is NOT supposed to be
written in terms of originator and responder).

Because the use of CHAP in Appendix C is illustrated only with
the initiator offering the AuthMethod key, I would like to verify
that the following is a correct security negotiation sequence
when it is the target, not the initiator, that first offers the
AuthMethod key (this scenario ignores the other keys that may be
required, such as InitiatorName, TargetName, etc., and assumes
they are sent as required):

1.  I-> Login (CSG,NSG=0,1 T=1) no AuthMethod key
2.  T-> Login-PR (CSG,NSG=0,0 T=0) AuthMethod=CHAP,SRP
3a. I-> Login (CSG,NSG=0,0 T=0) AuthMethod=CHAP
4a. T-> Login-PR (CSG,NSG=0,0 T=0) CHAP_A=4,5,7
5a. I-> Login (CSG,NSG=0,0 T=0) CHAP_A=5
6a. T-> Login-PR (CSG,NSG=0,0 T=0) CHAP_I=<i1> CHAP_C=<c1>
7a. I-> Login (CSG,NSG=0,1 T=1) CHAP_N=<n1> CHAP_R=<r1>
8a. T-> Login-FR (CSG,NSG=0,1 T=1) no keys
and security negotiation phase is now completed successfully

In particular, the first challenge, in step 6 above, always has to
be from the Target to the Initiator.  Is this correct?

Is it possible or preferable or required to collapse steps 3 through
6 above into just 2 steps?

3b. I-> Login (CSG,NSG=0,0 T=0) AuthMethod=CHAP CHAP_A=4,5,7
4b. T-> Login-PR (CSG,NSG=0,0 T=0) CHAP_A=5 CHAP_I=<i1> CHAP_C=<c1>
and then the next step would be 7.

This would have the effect of having the target offer the security
method (CHAP,SRP) but the initiator offering the algorithm (4,5,7).
Is this allowed?


As written above, Step 7a does not perform target authentication.
To do so, this step would be rewritten as:

7b. I-> Login (CSG,NSG=0,0 T=0) CHAP_N=<n1> CHAP_R=<r1> CHAP_I=<i1> CHAP_C=<c2>

in which case the continuation would then be:

8b. T-> Login-FR (CSG,NSG=0,1 T=1) CHAP_N=<n2> CHAP_R=<r2>

One final question -- although the target can force authentication as
shown above, and thereby gets to challenge the initiator, there appears
to be no way the target can force the initiator to challenge it.
In other words, if the initiator sends 7a above (no target challenge),
and the target wanted to see 7b, there is nothing the target can do
except send back a Login-Reject.  Correct?

If this is correct, what Status code should be in the Login-Reject?
It cannot be 0201 Authentication Failure, because the initiator may
have been successfully authenticated.  Is the correct response Status
0202 Authorization Failure or Status 0200 Miscellaneous iSCSI initiator
error or does it matter?

Thank you.

Bob Russell
InterOperability Lab
University of New Hampshire
rdr@iol.unh.edu
603-862-3774



From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Sat Aug  3 21:25:12 2002
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To: "Robert D. Russell" <rdr@io.iol.unh.edu>
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu
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Subject: RE: Invalid Pdus received during Login phase
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OK thanks - Julo




"Robert D. Russell" <rdr@io.iol.unh.edu>
08/04/2002 12:42 AM

 
        To:     Julian Satran <Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com>
        cc:     ips@ece.cmu.edu
        Subject:        RE: Invalid Pdus received during Login phase

 


Julian:

Some trivial typos in working draft 15 (3 August version).

1. Section 2.2.2.1, near the bottom of page 38:
        However CmdSN is as a marker ...
   should be:
        However their CmdSN is a marker ...

2. Section 2.2.6.3.2, near the bottom of page 42:
        encoded hexidecimal digits).
   should be:
        encoded hexadecimal digits).

3. Appendix C, the last example on page 252 has:
        AuthMethod:KRB5,SRP,None
   that colon should be an equal sign:
        AuthMethod=KRB5,SRP,None


Another minor point -- the paragraph in section 9.7.3 on page 156
   that contains the new wording says:

        "On incoming data, the Target Transfer Tag MUST be provided by
        the target if the A bit is set to 1.  The Target Transfer Tag
        and LUN are copied by the initiator in the SNACK of type DataACK
        that it issues as a result of receiving a SCSI Data-in PDU with
        the A bit set to 1 and MUST be set to the reserved value of
        0xffffffff otherwise."

   Of course only the TTT is set to 0xffffffff as a reserved value --
   the LUN is set to 0 when it is reserved.  Since the next paragraph
   seems to cover the necessary details about the 0xffffffff, perhaps
   we could simplify this paragraph to say:

        "On incoming data, the Target Transfer Tag and LUN MUST be
        provided by the target if the A bit is set to 1; otherwise
        they are reserved.  The Target Transfer Tag and LUN are copied
        by the initiator into the SNACK of type DataACK that it issues
        as a result of receiving a SCSI Data-in PDU with the A bit set
        to 1."


A final, less minor point -- I believe the addition of the new last
   paragraph to section 2.2.3 clearly addresses the issue of what
   the target should do when the first PDU it receives on a new TCP
   connection is not a Login request, but still leaves open what it
   should do later during the login phase if it receives a PDU other
   than a Login Request.

   The problem is the wording in the second sentence of the paragraph
   preceeding the new one:

        "Any other PDU, when received at initiator or target, is a
        protocol error and MUST result in the connection being
        terminated."

   This has two sources of misunderstanding --

   1.  It makes it sound as if an initiator can receive a Login Request
       from the target, and the target can receive a Login Response
       from the initiator, both of which are disallowed;
   2.  It makes it sound as if the target can immediately disconnect
       without first sending back a Login-Reject.

   Although the first misunderstanding can easily be resolved by
   refering to other sections of the draft, the second misunderstanding
   occurred at the plugfest.  Of course, my interpretation of its
   resolution may be incorrect, but I believe the target always needs
   to send back a Login-Reject before disconnecting, except when the
   very first PDU on a new TCP connection is not a Login (which is why
   the new paragraph was added to the end of section 2.2.3).

   If my interpretation is correct, could we eliminate the sentence
   just quoted ("Any other PDU, ... being terminated.") and instead
   add the following sentence to the end of the final (new) paragraph
   of this section:

        "Once the Login phase has started, if the target receives any
        PDU except a Login request, it MUST send a Login reject
        (with Status 0x020b) and then disconnect;  if the initiator
        receives any PDU except a Login response, it MUST immediately
        drop the connection."

   If my interpretation is not correct, we need to eliminate the
   Status code 0x020b from the table in section 9.13.5, since
   there appears to be no other use for it.  In this case there
   would also appear to be no reason to single out the first PDU
   on a new connection as being in any way different from subsequent
   PDUs during Login phase.


Thank you for your consideration.

Bob Russell
InterOperability Lab
University of New Hampshire
rdr@iol.unh.edu
603-862-3774




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<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">OK thanks - Julo</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>&quot;Robert D. Russell&quot; &lt;rdr@io.iol.unh.edu&gt;</b></font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">08/04/2002 12:42 AM</font>
<br>
<td><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Julian Satran &lt;Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com&gt;</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;ips@ece.cmu.edu</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;RE: Invalid Pdus received during Login phase</font>
<br>
<br><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font></table>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New"><br>
Julian:<br>
<br>
Some trivial typos in working draft 15 (3 August version).<br>
<br>
1. Section 2.2.2.1, near the bottom of page 38:<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;However CmdSN is as a marker ...<br>
 &nbsp; should be:<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;However their CmdSN is a marker ...<br>
<br>
2. Section 2.2.6.3.2, near the bottom of page 42:<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;encoded hexidecimal digits).<br>
 &nbsp; should be:<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;encoded hexadecimal digits).<br>
<br>
3. Appendix C, the last example on page 252 has:<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;AuthMethod:KRB5,SRP,None<br>
 &nbsp; that colon should be an equal sign:<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;AuthMethod=KRB5,SRP,None<br>
<br>
<br>
Another minor point -- the paragraph in section 9.7.3 on page 156<br>
 &nbsp; that contains the new wording says:<br>
<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&quot;On incoming data, the Target Transfer Tag MUST be provided by<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;the target if the A bit is set to 1. &nbsp;The Target Transfer Tag<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;and LUN are copied by the initiator in the SNACK of type DataACK<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;that it issues as a result of receiving a SCSI Data-in PDU with<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;the A bit set to 1 and MUST be set to the reserved value of<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;0xffffffff otherwise.&quot;<br>
<br>
 &nbsp; Of course only the TTT is set to 0xffffffff as a reserved value --<br>
 &nbsp; the LUN is set to 0 when it is reserved. &nbsp;Since the next paragraph<br>
 &nbsp; seems to cover the necessary details about the 0xffffffff, perhaps<br>
 &nbsp; we could simplify this paragraph to say:<br>
<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&quot;On incoming data, the Target Transfer Tag and LUN MUST be<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;provided by the target if the A bit is set to 1; otherwise<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;they are reserved. &nbsp;The Target Transfer Tag and LUN are copied<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;by the initiator into the SNACK of type DataACK that it issues<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;as a result of receiving a SCSI Data-in PDU with the A bit set<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;to 1.&quot;<br>
<br>
<br>
A final, less minor point -- I believe the addition of the new last<br>
 &nbsp; paragraph to section 2.2.3 clearly addresses the issue of what<br>
 &nbsp; the target should do when the first PDU it receives on a new TCP<br>
 &nbsp; connection is not a Login request, but still leaves open what it<br>
 &nbsp; should do later during the login phase if it receives a PDU other<br>
 &nbsp; than a Login Request.<br>
<br>
 &nbsp; The problem is the wording in the second sentence of the paragraph<br>
 &nbsp; preceeding the new one:<br>
<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&quot;Any other PDU, when received at initiator or target, is a<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;protocol error and MUST result in the connection being<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;terminated.&quot;<br>
<br>
 &nbsp; This has two sources of misunderstanding --<br>
<br>
 &nbsp; 1. &nbsp;It makes it sound as if an initiator can receive a Login Request<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; from the target, and the target can receive a Login Response<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; from the initiator, both of which are disallowed;<br>
 &nbsp; 2. &nbsp;It makes it sound as if the target can immediately disconnect<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; without first sending back a Login-Reject.<br>
<br>
 &nbsp; Although the first misunderstanding can easily be resolved by<br>
 &nbsp; refering to other sections of the draft, the second misunderstanding<br>
 &nbsp; occurred at the plugfest. &nbsp;Of course, my interpretation of its<br>
 &nbsp; resolution may be incorrect, but I believe the target always needs<br>
 &nbsp; to send back a Login-Reject before disconnecting, except when the<br>
 &nbsp; very first PDU on a new TCP connection is not a Login (which is why<br>
 &nbsp; the new paragraph was added to the end of section 2.2.3).<br>
<br>
 &nbsp; If my interpretation is correct, could we eliminate the sentence</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">&nbsp; &nbsp;just quoted (&quot;Any other PDU, ... being terminated.&quot;) and instead<br>
 &nbsp; add the following sentence to the end of the final (new) paragraph<br>
 &nbsp; of this section:<br>
<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&quot;Once the Login phase has started, if the target receives any<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;PDU except a Login request, it MUST send a Login reject<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;(with Status 0x020b) and then disconnect; &nbsp;if the initiator<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;receives any PDU except a Login response, it MUST immediately<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;drop the connection.&quot;<br>
<br>
 &nbsp; If my interpretation is not correct, we need to eliminate the<br>
 &nbsp; Status code 0x020b from the table in section 9.13.5, since<br>
 &nbsp; there appears to be no other use for it. &nbsp;In this case there<br>
 &nbsp; would also appear to be no reason to single out the first PDU<br>
 &nbsp; on a new connection as being in any way different from subsequent<br>
 &nbsp; PDUs during Login phase.<br>
<br>
<br>
Thank you for your consideration.<br>
<br>
Bob Russell<br>
InterOperability Lab<br>
University of New Hampshire<br>
rdr@iol.unh.edu<br>
603-862-3774<br>
<br>
</font>
<br>
<br>
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From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Sun Aug  4 05:29:00 2002
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Importance: High
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Subject: Re: iSCSI: CHAP
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Bob,

We have gone through the text again and found that it is not explicit 
enough about how a target can initiate a security selection.

As a consequence we propose the following minor clarifications to 10.1:

The AuthMethod selection is followed by an "authentication exchange" 
specific to the authentication method selected.

The authentication method proposal may be made by either the initia-tor or 
the target. However the initiator MUST make the first step specific to the 
selected authentication method as soon as it is selected. It follows that 
if the target makes the authentication method proposal the initiator sends 
the first keys(s) of the exchange together with its authentication method 
selection.

The authentication exchange authenticates the initiator to the tar-get, 
and optionally, the target to the initiator.  Authentication is not 
mandatory to use but MUST be supported by the target and initia-tor.

The initiator and target MUST implement CHAP. All other authentica-tion 
methods are OPTIONAL to implement.

Proprietary algorithms MAY also be negotiated for authentication methods. 
Whenever a proprietary algorithm is offered, "None" or "CHAP" MUST be 
listed as an option in order to guarantee interopera-bility.

Proprietary authentication methods MUST be named using of the follow-ing 
two formats:

Z-reversed.vendor.dns_name.do_something=
Z<#><IANA-registered-string>=

Authentication methods named using the Z- format a are used for 
ven-dor-specific purposes (unregistered). Authentication methods named 
using the Z# format must be registered with IANA and MUST be described by 
an informational RFC.

For all the vendor-specific registered or unregistered authentica-tion 
methods, the methods specific keys MUST conform to the format specified in 
Section 4.1 Text Format for standard-label.
 
For unregistered authentication methods, to identify the vendor, we 
suggest you use the reversed DNS-name as a prefix to the proper digest 
names.

The part of digest-name following Z- and Z# MUST conform to the for-mat 
for standard-label specified in Section 4.1 Text Format.

Support for vendor-specific authentication methods, whether regis-tered or 
not is OPTIONAL.

The following subsections define the specific exchanges for each of the 
standardized authentication methods. As mentioned earlier the first step 
is always done by the initiator.

Please not also that 7 contains already the following:

Section 10 iSCSI Security Keys and Authentication Methods defines several 
authentication methods and the exact steps that must be fol-lowed in each 
of them, including the keys and their allowed values in each step. 
Whenever an iSCSI initiator gets a response whose keys, or their values, 
are not according to the step definition, it MUST abort the connection. 
Whenever an iSCSI target gets a response whose keys, or their values, are 
not according to the step definition, it MUST answer with a Login reject 
with the "Initiator Error" or "Missing Parameter" status (these statuses 
are not intended for cryptographi-cally incorrect value, e.g., the CHAP 
response, for which "Authenti-cation Failure" status MUST be specified). 
The importance of this rule can be illustrated in CHAP with target 
authentication ( Section 10.1.4 Challenge Handshake Authentication 
Protocol (CHAP)) where the initiator would have been able to conduct a 
reflection attack by omitting his response key (CHAP_R), using the same 
CHAP challenge as the target and reflecting the target's response back to 
the target. In CHAP this is prevented since the target must answer the 
missing CHAP_R key with a Login reject with the "Missing Parameter" 
status.

Togther they should make clear that your hypothetical example is not 
correct in step 3a - where the initiator MUST have made the first CHAP 
specific step with CHAP_A=4,5,7 together with the AuthMethod=CHAP.

Thanks,
Julo




"Robert D. Russell" <rdr@io.iol.unh.edu>
Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
08/03/2002 05:43 PM

 
        To:     ips@ece.cmu.edu
        cc: 
        Subject:        iSCSI: CHAP

 


Julian:

Section 10.5 is written in terms of initiator and target, rather
than originator and responder as in section 7.2.1.  I believe this
is intentional (i.e., that section 10.5 is NOT supposed to be
written in terms of originator and responder).

Because the use of CHAP in Appendix C is illustrated only with
the initiator offering the AuthMethod key, I would like to verify
that the following is a correct security negotiation sequence
when it is the target, not the initiator, that first offers the
AuthMethod key (this scenario ignores the other keys that may be
required, such as InitiatorName, TargetName, etc., and assumes
they are sent as required):

1.  I-> Login (CSG,NSG=0,1 T=1) no AuthMethod key
2.  T-> Login-PR (CSG,NSG=0,0 T=0) AuthMethod=CHAP,SRP
3a. I-> Login (CSG,NSG=0,0 T=0) AuthMethod=CHAP
4a. T-> Login-PR (CSG,NSG=0,0 T=0) CHAP_A=4,5,7
5a. I-> Login (CSG,NSG=0,0 T=0) CHAP_A=5
6a. T-> Login-PR (CSG,NSG=0,0 T=0) CHAP_I=<i1> CHAP_C=<c1>
7a. I-> Login (CSG,NSG=0,1 T=1) CHAP_N=<n1> CHAP_R=<r1>
8a. T-> Login-FR (CSG,NSG=0,1 T=1) no keys
and security negotiation phase is now completed successfully

In particular, the first challenge, in step 6 above, always has to
be from the Target to the Initiator.  Is this correct?

Is it possible or preferable or required to collapse steps 3 through
6 above into just 2 steps?

3b. I-> Login (CSG,NSG=0,0 T=0) AuthMethod=CHAP CHAP_A=4,5,7
4b. T-> Login-PR (CSG,NSG=0,0 T=0) CHAP_A=5 CHAP_I=<i1> CHAP_C=<c1>
and then the next step would be 7.

This would have the effect of having the target offer the security
method (CHAP,SRP) but the initiator offering the algorithm (4,5,7).
Is this allowed?


As written above, Step 7a does not perform target authentication.
To do so, this step would be rewritten as:

7b. I-> Login (CSG,NSG=0,0 T=0) CHAP_N=<n1> CHAP_R=<r1> CHAP_I=<i1> 
CHAP_C=<c2>

in which case the continuation would then be:

8b. T-> Login-FR (CSG,NSG=0,1 T=1) CHAP_N=<n2> CHAP_R=<r2>

One final question -- although the target can force authentication as
shown above, and thereby gets to challenge the initiator, there appears
to be no way the target can force the initiator to challenge it.
In other words, if the initiator sends 7a above (no target challenge),
and the target wanted to see 7b, there is nothing the target can do
except send back a Login-Reject.  Correct?

If this is correct, what Status code should be in the Login-Reject?
It cannot be 0201 Authentication Failure, because the initiator may
have been successfully authenticated.  Is the correct response Status
0202 Authorization Failure or Status 0200 Miscellaneous iSCSI initiator
error or does it matter?

Thank you.

Bob Russell
InterOperability Lab
University of New Hampshire
rdr@iol.unh.edu
603-862-3774




--=_alternative 002F0630C2256C0B_=
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"


<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Bob,</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">We have gone through the text again and found that it is not explicit enough about how a target can initiate a security selection.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">As a consequence we propose the following minor clarifications to 10.1:</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="Courier New">The AuthMethod selection is followed by an &quot;authentication exchange&quot; specific to the authentication method selected.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="Courier New">The authentication method proposal may be made by either the initia-tor or the target. However the initiator MUST make the first step specific to the selected authentication method as soon as it is selected. It follows that if the target makes the authentication method proposal the initiator sends the first keys(s) of the exchange together with its authentication method selection.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="Courier New">The authentication exchange authenticates the initiator to the tar-get, and optionally, the target to the initiator. &nbsp;Authentication is not mandatory to use but MUST be supported by the target and initia-tor.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="Courier New">The initiator and target MUST implement CHAP. All other authentica-tion methods are OPTIONAL to implement.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="Courier New">Proprietary algorithms MAY also be negotiated for authentication methods. Whenever a proprietary algorithm is offered, &quot;None&quot; or &quot;CHAP&quot; MUST be listed as an option in order to guarantee interopera-bility.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="Courier New">Proprietary authentication methods MUST be named using of the follow-ing two formats:</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="Courier New">Z-reversed.vendor.dns_name.do_something=</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Courier New">Z&lt;#&gt;&lt;IANA-registered-string&gt;=</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="Courier New">Authentication methods named using the Z- format a are used for ven-dor-specific purposes (unregistered). Authentication methods named using the Z# format must be registered with IANA and MUST be described by an informational RFC.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="Courier New">For all the vendor-specific registered or unregistered authentica-tion methods, the methods specific keys MUST conform to the format specified in Section 4.1 Text Format for standard-label.</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Courier New">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Courier New">For unregistered authentication methods, to identify the vendor, we suggest you use the reversed DNS-name as a prefix to the proper digest names.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="Courier New">The part of digest-name following Z- and Z# MUST conform to the for-mat for standard-label specified in Section 4.1 Text Format.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="Courier New">Support for vendor-specific authentication methods, whether regis-tered or not is OPTIONAL.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="Courier New">The following subsections define the specific exchanges for each of the standardized authentication methods. As mentioned earlier the first step is always done by the initiator.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Please not also that 7 contains already the following:</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="Courier New">Section 10 iSCSI Security Keys and Authentication Methods defines several authentication methods and the exact steps that must be fol-lowed in each of them, including the keys and their allowed values in each step. Whenever an iSCSI initiator gets a response whose keys, or their values, are not according to the step definition, it MUST abort the connection. Whenever an iSCSI target gets a response whose keys, or their values, are not according to the step definition, it MUST answer with a Login reject with the &quot;Initiator Error&quot; or &quot;Missing Parameter&quot; status (these statuses are not intended for cryptographi-cally incorrect value, e.g., the CHAP response, for which &quot;Authenti-cation Failure&quot; status MUST be specified). The importance of this rule can be illustrated in CHAP with target authentication ( Section 10.1.4 Challenge Handshake Authentication Protocol (CHAP)) where the initiator would have been able to con!
duct a reflection attack by omitting his response key (CHAP_R), using the same CHAP challenge as the target and reflecting the target's response back to the target. In CHAP this is prevented since the target must answer the missing CHAP_R key with a Login reject with the &quot;Missing Parameter&quot; status.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Togther they should make clear that your hypothetical example is not correct in step 3a - where the initiator MUST have made the first CHAP specific step with CHAP_A=4,5,7 together with the AuthMethod=CHAP.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Thanks,</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Julo</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>&quot;Robert D. Russell&quot; &lt;rdr@io.iol.unh.edu&gt;</b></font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu</font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">08/03/2002 05:43 PM</font>
<br>
<td><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;ips@ece.cmu.edu</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;iSCSI: CHAP</font>
<br>
<br><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font></table>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New"><br>
Julian:<br>
<br>
Section 10.5 is written in terms of initiator and target, rather<br>
than originator and responder as in section 7.2.1. &nbsp;I believe this<br>
is intentional (i.e., that section 10.5 is NOT supposed to be<br>
written in terms of originator and responder).<br>
<br>
Because the use of CHAP in Appendix C is illustrated only with<br>
the initiator offering the AuthMethod key, I would like to verify<br>
that the following is a correct security negotiation sequence<br>
when it is the target, not the initiator, that first offers the<br>
AuthMethod key (this scenario ignores the other keys that may be<br>
required, such as InitiatorName, TargetName, etc., and assumes<br>
they are sent as required):<br>
<br>
1. &nbsp;I-&gt; Login (CSG,NSG=0,1 T=1) no AuthMethod key<br>
2. &nbsp;T-&gt; Login-PR (CSG,NSG=0,0 T=0) AuthMethod=CHAP,SRP<br>
3a. I-&gt; Login (CSG,NSG=0,0 T=0) AuthMethod=CHAP<br>
4a. T-&gt; Login-PR (CSG,NSG=0,0 T=0) CHAP_A=4,5,7<br>
5a. I-&gt; Login (CSG,NSG=0,0 T=0) CHAP_A=5<br>
6a. T-&gt; Login-PR (CSG,NSG=0,0 T=0) CHAP_I=&lt;i1&gt; CHAP_C=&lt;c1&gt;<br>
7a. I-&gt; Login (CSG,NSG=0,1 T=1) CHAP_N=&lt;n1&gt; CHAP_R=&lt;r1&gt;<br>
8a. T-&gt; Login-FR (CSG,NSG=0,1 T=1) no keys<br>
and security negotiation phase is now completed successfully<br>
<br>
In particular, the first challenge, in step 6 above, always has to<br>
be from the Target to the Initiator. &nbsp;Is this correct?<br>
<br>
Is it possible or preferable or required to collapse steps 3 through<br>
6 above into just 2 steps?<br>
<br>
3b. I-&gt; Login (CSG,NSG=0,0 T=0) AuthMethod=CHAP CHAP_A=4,5,7<br>
4b. T-&gt; Login-PR (CSG,NSG=0,0 T=0) CHAP_A=5 CHAP_I=&lt;i1&gt; CHAP_C=&lt;c1&gt;<br>
and then the next step would be 7.<br>
<br>
This would have the effect of having the target offer the security<br>
method (CHAP,SRP) but the initiator offering the algorithm (4,5,7).<br>
Is this allowed?<br>
<br>
<br>
As written above, Step 7a does not perform target authentication.<br>
To do so, this step would be rewritten as:<br>
<br>
7b. I-&gt; Login (CSG,NSG=0,0 T=0) CHAP_N=&lt;n1&gt; CHAP_R=&lt;r1&gt; CHAP_I=&lt;i1&gt; CHAP_C=&lt;c2&gt;<br>
<br>
in which case the continuation would then be:<br>
<br>
8b. T-&gt; Login-FR (CSG,NSG=0,1 T=1) CHAP_N=&lt;n2&gt; CHAP_R=&lt;r2&gt;<br>
<br>
One final question -- although the target can force authentication as<br>
shown above, and thereby gets to challenge the initiator, there appears<br>
to be no way the target can force the initiator to challenge it.<br>
In other words, if the initiator sends 7a above (no target challenge),<br>
and the target wanted to see 7b, there is nothing the target can do<br>
except send back a Login-Reject. &nbsp;Correct?<br>
<br>
If this is correct, what Status code should be in the Login-Reject?<br>
It cannot be 0201 Authentication Failure, because the initiator may<br>
have been successfully authenticated. &nbsp;Is the correct response Status<br>
0202 Authorization Failure or Status 0200 Miscellaneous iSCSI initiator<br>
error or does it matter?<br>
<br>
Thank you.<br>
<br>
Bob Russell<br>
InterOperability Lab<br>
University of New Hampshire<br>
rdr@iol.unh.edu<br>
603-862-3774<br>
<br>
</font>
<br>
<br>
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FCIP gurus:

The FCIP protocol allows one FCIP link have multiple TCP connection. I =
have two questions about this:

1. Why would a FCIP link need multiple TCP connections?=20
2. If there are multiple TCP connections in a FCIP link, which entity is =
responsible for distributing  traffic among them.

Chong Peng


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Julian,
 
Text is ok, but please add a sentence to avoid the confusion over
Status that occurred at the plugfest - SCSI permits
a residual count to be returned for status values other than GOOD.
 
Thanks,
--David

-----Original Message-----
From: Julian Satran [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]
Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 1:14 AM
To: Black_David@emc.com
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues



David, 

We are in violent agreement. SPC3 is explicit about counts only when talking
about extended copy. 
The only thing I find objectionable is to tell the initiator when to CHECK
(that is a device class/device/driver issue). 
Some devices for some commands will generate CHECK CONDITION BECAUSE they
have a residual count. 

That is why I would suggest the following text: 

The Residual Count field MUST be valid in the case where either the U bit or
the O bit is set. If neither bit is set, the Residual Count field is
reserved. Targets may set residual count and initiators may use it when the
response code is completed at target. If the O bit is set, the Residual
Count indicates the number of bytes that were not transferred because the
initiator's Expected Data Transfer Length was not sufficient. If the U bit
is set, the Residual Count indicates the number of bytes that were not
transferred out of the number of bytes expected to be transferred. 

Julo 



	Black_David@emc.com 


08/03/2002 01:50 AM 


        
        To:        Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL 
        cc:        ips@ece.cmu.edu 
        Subject:        RE: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues 

       


Julian, 
  
Matching FCP's wording resulted in a "go ask the expert" algorithm 
for figuring out what is required - we ought to do better, and this 
is an iSCSI protocol issue.  What I'm looking for in 9.4 is: 
  
- Bits 3-6 (o, u, O, U) MAY be set by the Target and SHOULD be checked 
    by the Initiator when the Response is "Command Completed at Target" 
    no matter what the value of the Status field is. 
- SCSI permits Residual Counts to be returned for Status values other 
    than GOOD; see [SPC2]. 
  
I believe that both of these are implied by the current text, but since 
this caused confusion at the plugfest, we ought to spell it out. 
  
Thanks, 
--David 

---------------------------------------------------
David L. Black, Senior Technologist
EMC Corporation, 42 South St., Hopkinton, MA  01748
+1 (508) 249-6449            FAX: +1 (508) 497-8018
black_david@emc.com       Mobile: +1 (978) 394-7754
--------------------------------------------------- 


-----Original Message-----
From: Julian Satran [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]
Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 1:43 AM
To: Black_David@emc.com
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues


David, 

We DO EXACTLY what FCP did  - say nothing. 
I went through the document - thetre is no relation mentioned and that is
what we do too. 

In any case we cannot enforce a SCSI behavior. 
The expectation is obvious that if SCSI hands obver counts those will be
carried by iSCSI. 

I also suspect that the trouble may be deeper than we think and I find it
much more prudent 
to say nothing (again as FCP did). 

Julo 




	Black_David@emc.com 


08/01/2002 05:56 PM 

        
       To:        Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL 
       cc:        ips@ece.cmu.edu 
       Subject:        RE: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues 

      



Julian, 
 
I think we need to do something here, as there are clearly 
situations in which the residual count is important for commands that 
complete with other than good status, making the "other point of 
view" reported by Robert Russell incorrect.  Waiting for SPC-3 to 
do something to clarify this isn't going to do much for iSCSI 
interoperability in the short term.  Since Bob Snively was the 
Technical Editor of FCP-2, he tends to be correct about what FCP-2 
requires or intends - I suggest we follow FCP-2, and say that the 
O/o/U/u bits are valid in all cases (of course, if none of them 
are set, the Residual Count field is not valid). 
 
Thanks, 
--David 

---------------------------------------------------
David L. Black, Senior Technologist
EMC Corporation, 42 South St., Hopkinton, MA  01748
+1 (508) 249-6449            FAX: +1 (508) 497-8018
black_david@emc.com       Mobile: +1 (978) 394-7754
--------------------------------------------------- 


-----Original Message-----
From: Julian Satran [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 3:26 AM
To: Santosh Rao
Cc: IPS Reflector; rdr@io.iol.unh.edu; Robert Snively;
santoshr@hpcuhe.cup.hp.com; T10 Reflector
Subject: Re: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues


Santosh, 

I think that this behaviour should be specified by SPC3. I looked (again)
into the FCP docs and like iSCSI they do not say anything beyond 
iSCSI says. Like iSCSI they specify that the field is valid when the Oo/Uu
bits are set but nothing about how those bits relate to status. 
SPC says nothing about that either  (beyond that the bits set are not
necessarily an indication of error). 

Julo 


	Santosh Rao <santoshr@cup.hp.com> 
Sent by: santoshr@hpcuhe.cup.hp.com 


08/01/2002 03:44 AM 

        
      To:        IPS Reflector <ips@ece.cmu.edu>, Julian
Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL, rdr@io.iol.unh.edu 
      cc:        Robert Snively <rsnively@brocade.com>, T10 Reflector
<t10@t10.org> 
      Subject:        Re: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues 

     




Julian & Robert [Russell],

I raised the same query regarding RESID for FCP/FCP-2 this time last
year. The response I got for FCP/FCP-2 was that RESID information shall
be valid, regardless of the scsi status returned. The RESID field, can
be checked by the scsi transport drivers independent of the SCSI STATUS.

I have enclosed the T10 response from Rob Snivelly below on that issue.
As per FC-PLDA, the RESID information is valid, regardless of the scsi
status returned by the device. 

An example of this is the case of "NO SENSE" or "RECOVERED ERROR" check
condition, when the data transfer may have taken place and a CHECK
CONDITION is returned. Also, for other CHECK CONDITION status', partial
data transfer may have taken place and hence, resid information should
be present.

It would be good to maintain consistent behaviour across the scsi
transports in this regard, since protocol bridging from iscsi to FCP
domain would expect RESID information in the FCP domain, regardless of
scsi status.

This also allows scsi transports to remain free of SCSI command set
details. (ex : the scsi transport drivers do not need to parse for CHECK
CONDITION or GOO status information.)

Thanks,
Santosh


-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues
Date:    Thu, 1 Aug 2002 02:52:19 +0300
From:   "Julian Satran" <Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com>
To:     "Robert D. Russell" <rdr@io.iol.unh.edu>
CC:     ips@ece.cmu.edu

Bob, 

Thanks - some comments in text. Julo 


"Robert D. Russell" <rdr@io.iol.unh.edu> 
                                         
Julian:

Four issues came up today at the iSCSI plugfest:

1. A question about whether or not the Residual Count field and the
appropriate O and U bits need to be computed on all SCSI Response
PDUs, regardless of the values in the Status and/or Response fields.

One point of view says that the Residual Count field and the O and U
bits appear to be strictly iSCSI values that are derived by the
iSCSI target layer from the ExpectedDataTransferLength field of the
SCSI Command PDU and the DataSegmentLength fields of the DataIn or
DataOut PDUs sent as part of this command.  Therefore ,the iSCSI
target always computes a Residual Count value without regard to the
Status and/or Response fields, since these are SCSI values.

The other point of view says that the Residual Count field, and the
O and U bits, need only be set when the Status and Response fields
indicate that the command was completed at the target with a GOOD
Status, and the target does not have to compute or set the Residual
Count field and the O or U bits for other values of the Status and/or
Response fields.

Which is it?  In any case, could this be clarified somewhere in the
standard, most likely in section 9.4.4.

+++ Residual count fields are in fact carrioed over from the SCSI layer. 
I know that none of the SCSI docs specifies
exactly their behavior and it strikes me as a bad idea to have protocols
specify them. 
The values should be valid any time the target decides to put them in. 
+++


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: RE: FCP_RSP Residual Checking.
Date:    Thu, 5 Jul 2001 13:18:42 -0700
From:    Robert Snively <rsnively@brocade.com>
To:      "'Santosh Rao'" <santoshr@cup.hp.com>, 
      T10 Reflector <t10@t10.org>, 
      Fibre Channel T11 reflector <fc@network.com>

Robert Snively wrote:
> 
> >  Is the target required to initialize the fields FCP_RESID_UNDER,
> >  FCP_RESID_OVER & FCP_RESID when any I/O is completed
> >  without the data phase having transferred exactly
> >  FCP_DL bytes, regardless of the SCSI Status being returned ?
> 
> >  When the target generates a CHECK CONDITION on an I/O
> >  and may have returned less than FCP_DL bytes in the data
> >  phase for that I/O, is it
> >  required to set the FCP_RESID_UNDER to 1 and indicate the number of
> >  bytes not transferred in the FCP_RESID field?
> 
> The intent is that the answer to your second question is:
> FCP_RESID should appropriately regardless of the SCSI Status
> being returned.  The classic errors of that class are those
> involving successful completion with reporting, like
> the "NO SENSE" and "RECOVERED ERROR" series of errors.
> 
> >
> >  What is the behaviour initiators can expect under the above
> >  condition ?
> 
> The intent is that there be no conflict.  I believe that FCP-2
> was a bit less bald than FC-PLDA in stating the requirement.
> 
> >  Is there a conflict in the behaviours described by FCP/FCP-2
> >  & FC-PLDA ?
> >
> 
> Bob Snively                        e-mail:    rsnively@brocade.com
> Brocade Communications Systems     phone:  408 487 8135
> 1745 Technology Drive
> San Jose, CA 95110
> 
> >  -----Original Message-----
> >  From: Santosh Rao [mailto:santoshr@cup.hp.com]
> >  Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 12:15 PM
> >  To: T10 Reflector; Fibre Channel T11 reflector
> >  Subject: FCP_RSP Residual Checking.
> >
> >
> >  All,
> >
> >  I've got a question on target behaviour while sending a 
> >  CHECK CONDITION
> >  SCSI status in its FCP_RSP IU.
> >
> >  Is the target required to initialize the fields FCP_RESID_UNDER,
> >  FCP_RESID_OVER & FCP_RESID when any I/O is completed without the data
> >  phase having transferred exactly FCP_DL bytes, regardless of the SCSI
> >  Status being returned ?
> >
> >  When the target generates a CHECK CONDITION on an I/O and may have
> >  returned less than FCP_DL bytes in the data phase for that I/O, is it
> >  required to set the FCP_RESID_UNDER to 1 and indicate the number of
> >  bytes not transferred in the FCP_RESID field?
> >
> >  FC-PLDA Section 8.2.4.1 states that :
> >  "SCSI targets that transfer less than FCP_DL bytes during
> >  the FCP_DATA
> >  IUs shall set the FCP_RESID_UNDER to 1".
> >
> >  No exceptions are specified in the case of a CHECK CONDITION in the
> >  above definition, implying that FCP_RSP residual checking can be
> >  performed irrespective of the SCSI Status that was returned in the
> >  FCP_RSP.
> >
> >  However, the wording descriptions of FCP_RESID_UNDER,
> >  FCP_RESID_OVER &
> >  FCP_RESID in SCSI-FCP & FCP-2 are not as stringent as
> >  FC-PLDA and do not
> >  mandate that FCP_RESID_UNDER shall be set when the data
> >  transferred is <
> >  FCP_DL.
> >
> >  What is the behaviour initiators can expect under the above
> >  condition ?
> >  Is there a conflict in the behaviours described by FCP/FCP-2
> >  & FC-PLDA ?
> >
> >  Thanks,
> >  Santosh Rao
> >

-- 
Education is when you read the fine print. 
Experience is what you get if you don't.







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<DIV><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN 
class=091215215-05082002>Julian,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN 
class=091215215-05082002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN class=091215215-05082002>Text is ok, 
but please add a sentence to avoid the confusion over</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN class=091215215-05082002>Status that 
occurred at the plugfest -&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT><FONT face="Courier New" 
size=2><SPAN class=091215215-05082002>SCSI permits</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN class=091215215-05082002>a residual 
count to be returned for status values other than GOOD.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN 
class=091215215-05082002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN 
class=091215215-05082002>Thanks,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN 
class=091215215-05082002>--David</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE 
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
  <DIV align=left class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr><FONT face=Tahoma 
  size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Julian Satran 
  [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, August 03, 2002 
  1:14 AM<BR><B>To:</B> Black_David@emc.com<BR><B>Cc:</B> 
  ips@ece.cmu.edu<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: iSCSI: plugfest4 
  issues<BR><BR></DIV></FONT><BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>David,</FONT> 
  <BR><BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>We are in violent agreement. SPC3 is 
  explicit about counts only when talking about extended copy.</FONT> <BR><FONT 
  face=sans-serif size=2>The only thing I find objectionable is to tell the 
  initiator when to CHECK (that is a device class/device/driver issue).</FONT> 
  <BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>Some devices for some commands will generate 
  CHECK CONDITION BECAUSE they have a residual count.</FONT> <BR><BR><FONT 
  face=sans-serif size=2>That is why I would suggest the following text:</FONT> 
  <BR><BR><FONT face="Courier New" size=3>The Residual Count field MUST be valid 
  in the case where either the U bit or the O bit is set. If neither bit is set, 
  the Residual Count field is reserved. Targets may set residual count and 
  initiators may use it when the response code is completed at target. If the O 
  bit is set, the Residual Count indicates the number of bytes that were not 
  transferred because the initiator's Expected Data Transfer Length was not 
  sufficient. If the U bit is set, the Residual Count indicates the number of 
  bytes that were not transferred out of the number of bytes expected to be 
  transferred.</FONT> <BR><BR><FONT face="Courier New" size=3>Julo</FONT> 
  <BR><BR><BR>
  <TABLE width="100%">
    <TBODY>
    <TR vAlign=top>
      <TD>
      <TD><FONT face=sans-serif size=1><B>Black_David@emc.com</B></FONT> 
        <P><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>08/03/2002 01:50 AM</FONT> <BR></P>
      <TD><FONT face=Arial size=1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </FONT><BR><FONT 
        face=sans-serif size=1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; To: &nbsp; &nbsp; 
        &nbsp; &nbsp;Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL</FONT> <BR><FONT 
        face=sans-serif size=1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; 
        &nbsp; &nbsp;ips@ece.cmu.edu</FONT> <BR><FONT face=sans-serif 
        size=1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 
        &nbsp;RE: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues</FONT> <BR><BR><FONT face=Arial 
        size=1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</FONT></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR><BR><FONT 
  face="Courier New" size=2>Julian,</FONT> <BR><FONT face="Times New Roman" 
  size=3>&nbsp;</FONT> <BR><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>Matching FCP's 
  wording resulted in a "go ask the expert" algorithm</FONT> <BR><FONT 
  face="Courier New" size=2>for figuring out what is required - we ought to do 
  better, and this</FONT> <BR><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>is an iSCSI 
  protocol issue. &nbsp;What I'm looking for in 9.4 is:</FONT> <BR><FONT 
  face="Times New Roman" size=3>&nbsp;</FONT> <BR><FONT face="Courier New" 
  size=2>- Bits 3-6 (o, u, O, U) MAY be set by the Target and SHOULD be 
  checked</FONT> <BR><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>&nbsp; &nbsp; by the 
  Initiator when the Response is "Command Completed at Target"</FONT> <BR><FONT 
  face="Courier New" size=2>&nbsp; &nbsp; no matter what the value of the Status 
  field is.</FONT> <BR><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>- SCSI permits Residual 
  Counts to be returned for Status values other</FONT> <BR><FONT 
  face="Courier New" size=2>&nbsp; &nbsp; than GOOD; see [SPC2].</FONT> 
  <BR><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>&nbsp;</FONT> <BR><FONT 
  face="Courier New" size=2>I believe that both of these are implied by the 
  current text, but since</FONT> <BR><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>this caused 
  confusion at the plugfest, we ought to spell it out.</FONT> <BR><FONT 
  face="Times New Roman" size=3>&nbsp;</FONT> <BR><FONT face="Courier New" 
  size=2>Thanks,</FONT> <BR><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>--David</FONT> 
  <P><FONT face="Courier New" 
  size=2>---------------------------------------------------<BR>David L. Black, 
  Senior Technologist<BR>EMC Corporation, 42 South St., Hopkinton, MA 
  &nbsp;01748<BR>+1 (508) 249-6449 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;FAX: 
  +1 (508) 497-8018<BR>black_david@emc.com &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Mobile: +1 (978) 
  394-7754<BR>---------------------------------------------------</FONT> 
  <P><FONT face=Tahoma size=2>-----Original Message-----<B><BR>From:</B> Julian 
  Satran [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]<B><BR>Sent:</B> Friday, August 02, 
  2002 1:43 AM<B><BR>To:</B> Black_David@emc.com<B><BR>Cc:</B> 
  ips@ece.cmu.edu<B><BR>Subject:</B> RE: iSCSI: plugfest4 
  issues<BR></FONT><BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2><BR>David,</FONT><FONT 
  face="Times New Roman" size=3> <BR></FONT><FONT face=sans-serif size=2><BR>We 
  DO EXACTLY what FCP did &nbsp;- say nothing.</FONT><FONT 
  face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT><FONT face=sans-serif size=2><BR>I went 
  through the document - thetre is no relation mentioned and that is what we do 
  too.</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> <BR></FONT><FONT 
  face=sans-serif size=2><BR>In any case we cannot enforce a SCSI 
  behavior.</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT><FONT 
  face=sans-serif size=2><BR>The expectation is obvious that if SCSI hands obver 
  counts those will be carried by iSCSI.</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" 
  size=3> <BR></FONT><FONT face=sans-serif size=2><BR>I also suspect that the 
  trouble may be deeper than we think and I find it much more prudent <BR>to say 
  nothing (again as FCP did).</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> 
  <BR></FONT><FONT face=sans-serif size=2><BR>Julo</FONT><FONT 
  face="Times New Roman" size=3> <BR><BR><BR></FONT>
  <TABLE width="100%">
    <TBODY>
    <TR vAlign=top>
      <TD width="3%">
      <TD width="37%"><FONT face=sans-serif 
        size=1><B>Black_David@emc.com</B></FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" 
        size=3> </FONT>
        <P><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>08/01/2002 05:56 PM</FONT><FONT 
        face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT></P>
      <TD width="59%"><FONT face=Arial size=1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 
        </FONT><FONT face=sans-serif size=1><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;To: 
        &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL</FONT><FONT 
        face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT><FONT face=sans-serif 
        size=1><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 
        &nbsp;ips@ece.cmu.edu</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> 
        </FONT><FONT face=sans-serif size=1><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 
        &nbsp;Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;RE: iSCSI: plugfest4 
        issues</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> <BR></FONT><FONT 
        face=Arial size=1><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 
  </FONT></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR><FONT face="Times New Roman" 
  size=3><BR></FONT><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><BR>Julian,</FONT><FONT 
  face="Times New Roman" size=3> <BR>&nbsp;</FONT><FONT face="Courier New" 
  size=2><BR>I think we need to do something here, as there are 
  clearly</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT><FONT 
  face="Courier New" size=2><BR>situations in which the residual count is 
  important for commands that</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> 
  </FONT><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><BR>complete with other than good 
  status, making the "other point of</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> 
  </FONT><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><BR>view" reported by Robert Russell 
  incorrect. &nbsp;Waiting for SPC-3 to</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" 
  size=3> </FONT><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><BR>do something to clarify 
  this isn't going to do much for iSCSI</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" 
  size=3> </FONT><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><BR>interoperability in the 
  short term. &nbsp;Since Bob Snively was the</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" 
  size=3> </FONT><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><BR>Technical Editor of FCP-2, 
  he tends to be correct about what FCP-2</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" 
  size=3> </FONT><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><BR>requires or intends - I 
  suggest we follow FCP-2, and say that the</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" 
  size=3> </FONT><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><BR>O/o/U/u bits are valid in 
  all cases (of course, if none of them</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" 
  size=3> </FONT><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><BR>are set, the Residual Count 
  field is not valid).</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> 
  <BR>&nbsp;</FONT><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><BR>Thanks,</FONT><FONT 
  face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT><FONT face="Courier New" 
  size=2><BR>--David</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT>
  <P><FONT face="Courier New" 
  size=2>---------------------------------------------------<BR>David L. Black, 
  Senior Technologist<BR>EMC Corporation, 42 South St., Hopkinton, MA 
  &nbsp;01748<BR>+1 (508) 249-6449 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;FAX: 
  +1 (508) 497-8018<BR>black_david@emc.com &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Mobile: +1 (978) 
  394-7754<BR>---------------------------------------------------</FONT><FONT 
  face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT>
  <P><FONT face=Tahoma size=2>-----Original Message-----<B><BR>From:</B> Julian 
  Satran [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]<B><BR>Sent:</B> Thursday, August 01, 
  2002 3:26 AM<B><BR>To:</B> Santosh Rao<B><BR>Cc:</B> IPS Reflector; 
  rdr@io.iol.unh.edu; Robert Snively; santoshr@hpcuhe.cup.hp.com; T10 
  Reflector<B><BR>Subject:</B> Re: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues</FONT><FONT 
  face="Times New Roman" size=3><BR></FONT><FONT face=sans-serif 
  size=2><BR><BR>Santosh,</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> 
  </FONT><FONT face=sans-serif size=2><BR><BR>I think that this behaviour should 
  be specified by SPC3. I looked (again) into the FCP docs and like iSCSI they 
  do not say anything beyond</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> 
  </FONT><FONT face=sans-serif size=2><BR>iSCSI says. Like iSCSI they specify 
  that the field is valid when the Oo/Uu bits are set but nothing about how 
  those bits relate to status.</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> 
  </FONT><FONT face=sans-serif size=2><BR>SPC says nothing about that either 
  &nbsp;(beyond that the bits set are not necessarily an indication of error). 
  <BR><BR>Julo</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> <BR></FONT>
  <TABLE width="100%">
    <TBODY>
    <TR vAlign=top>
      <TD width="1%">
      <TD width="31%"><FONT face=sans-serif size=1><B>Santosh Rao 
        &lt;santoshr@cup.hp.com&gt;</B></FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" 
        size=3> </FONT><FONT face=sans-serif size=1><BR>Sent by: 
        santoshr@hpcuhe.cup.hp.com</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> 
        </FONT>
        <P><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>08/01/2002 03:44 AM</FONT><FONT 
        face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT></P>
      <TD width="67%"><FONT face=Arial size=1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 
        </FONT><FONT face=sans-serif size=1><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; To: &nbsp; 
        &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;IPS Reflector &lt;ips@ece.cmu.edu&gt;, Julian 
        Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL, rdr@io.iol.unh.edu</FONT><FONT 
        face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT><FONT face=sans-serif 
        size=1><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Robert 
        Snively &lt;rsnively@brocade.com&gt;, T10 Reflector 
        &lt;t10@t10.org&gt;</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> 
        </FONT><FONT face=sans-serif size=1><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subject: 
        &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Re: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues</FONT><FONT 
        face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT><FONT face=Arial 
        size=1><BR><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</FONT></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR><FONT 
  face="Times New Roman" size=3><BR></FONT><FONT face="Courier New" 
  size=2><BR><BR>Julian &amp; Robert [Russell],<BR><BR>I raised the same query 
  regarding RESID for FCP/FCP-2 this time last<BR>year. The response I got for 
  FCP/FCP-2 was that RESID information shall<BR>be valid, regardless of the scsi 
  status returned. The RESID field, can<BR>be checked by the scsi transport 
  drivers independent of the SCSI STATUS.<BR><BR>I have enclosed the T10 
  response from Rob Snivelly below on that issue.<BR>As per FC-PLDA, the RESID 
  information is valid, regardless of the scsi<BR>status returned by the device. 
  <BR><BR>An example of this is the case of "NO SENSE" or "RECOVERED ERROR" 
  check<BR>condition, when the data transfer may have taken place and a 
  CHECK<BR>CONDITION is returned. Also, for other CHECK CONDITION status', 
  partial<BR>data transfer may have taken place and hence, resid information 
  should<BR>be present.<BR><BR>It would be good to maintain consistent behaviour 
  across the scsi<BR>transports in this regard, since protocol bridging from 
  iscsi to FCP<BR>domain would expect RESID information in the FCP domain, 
  regardless of<BR>scsi status.<BR><BR>This also allows scsi transports to 
  remain free of SCSI command set<BR>details. (ex : the scsi transport drivers 
  do not need to parse for CHECK<BR>CONDITION or GOO status 
  information.)<BR><BR>Thanks,<BR>Santosh<BR><BR><BR>-------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Subject: 
  Re: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues<BR>Date: &nbsp; &nbsp;Thu, 1 Aug 2002 02:52:19 
  +0300<BR>From: &nbsp; "Julian Satran" &lt;Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com&gt;<BR>To: 
  &nbsp; &nbsp; "Robert D. Russell" &lt;rdr@io.iol.unh.edu&gt;<BR>CC: &nbsp; 
  &nbsp; ips@ece.cmu.edu<BR><BR>Bob, <BR><BR>Thanks - some comments in text. 
  Julo <BR><BR><BR>"Robert D. Russell" &lt;rdr@io.iol.unh.edu&gt; <BR>&nbsp; 
  &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 
  &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 
  &nbsp;<BR>Julian:<BR><BR>Four issues came up today at the iSCSI 
  plugfest:<BR><BR>1. A question about whether or not the Residual Count field 
  and the<BR>appropriate O and U bits need to be computed on all SCSI 
  Response<BR>PDUs, regardless of the values in the Status and/or Response 
  fields.<BR><BR>One point of view says that the Residual Count field and the O 
  and U<BR>bits appear to be strictly iSCSI values that are derived by 
  the<BR>iSCSI target layer from the ExpectedDataTransferLength field of 
  the<BR>SCSI Command PDU and the DataSegmentLength fields of the DataIn 
  or<BR>DataOut PDUs sent as part of this command. &nbsp;Therefore ,the 
  iSCSI<BR>target always computes a Residual Count value without regard to 
  the<BR>Status and/or Response fields, since these are SCSI values.<BR><BR>The 
  other point of view says that the Residual Count field, and the<BR>O and U 
  bits, need only be set when the Status and Response fields<BR>indicate that 
  the command was completed at the target with a GOOD<BR>Status, and the target 
  does not have to compute or set the Residual<BR>Count field and the O or U 
  bits for other values of the Status and/or<BR>Response fields.<BR><BR>Which is 
  it? &nbsp;In any case, could this be clarified somewhere in the<BR>standard, 
  most likely in section 9.4.4.<BR><BR>+++ Residual count fields are in fact 
  carrioed over from the SCSI layer.</FONT> <BR><FONT face="Courier New" 
  size=2>I know that none of the SCSI docs specifies<BR>exactly their behavior 
  and it strikes me as a bad idea to have protocols<BR>specify them. <BR>The 
  values should be valid any time the target decides to put them in. 
  <BR>+++<BR><BR><BR>-------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>Subject: 
  RE: FCP_RSP Residual Checking.<BR>Date: &nbsp; &nbsp;Thu, 5 Jul 2001 13:18:42 
  -0700<BR>From: &nbsp; &nbsp;Robert Snively &lt;rsnively@brocade.com&gt;<BR>To: 
  &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;"'Santosh Rao'" &lt;santoshr@cup.hp.com&gt;, <BR>&nbsp; 
  &nbsp; &nbsp; T10 Reflector &lt;t10@t10.org&gt;, <BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 
  Fibre Channel T11 reflector &lt;fc@network.com&gt;<BR><BR>Robert Snively 
  wrote:<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;Is the target required to initialize the 
  fields FCP_RESID_UNDER,<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;FCP_RESID_OVER &amp; FCP_RESID when 
  any I/O is completed<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;without the data phase having 
  transferred exactly<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;FCP_DL bytes, regardless of the SCSI 
  Status being returned ?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;When the target generates 
  a CHECK CONDITION on an I/O<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;and may have returned less than 
  FCP_DL bytes in the data<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;phase for that I/O, is it<BR>&gt; 
  &gt; &nbsp;required to set the FCP_RESID_UNDER to 1 and indicate the number 
  of<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;bytes not transferred in the FCP_RESID field?<BR>&gt; 
  <BR>&gt; The intent is that the answer to your second question is:<BR>&gt; 
  FCP_RESID should appropriately regardless of the SCSI Status<BR>&gt; being 
  returned. &nbsp;The classic errors of that class are those<BR>&gt; involving 
  successful completion with reporting, like<BR>&gt; the "NO SENSE" and 
  "RECOVERED ERROR" series of errors.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; 
  &nbsp;What is the behaviour initiators can expect under the above<BR>&gt; &gt; 
  &nbsp;condition ?<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; The intent is that there be no conflict. 
  &nbsp;I believe that FCP-2<BR>&gt; was a bit less bald than FC-PLDA in stating 
  the requirement.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;Is there a conflict in the 
  behaviours described by FCP/FCP-2<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;&amp; FC-PLDA ?<BR>&gt; 
  &gt;<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; Bob Snively &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 
  &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;e-mail: &nbsp; 
  &nbsp;rsnively@brocade.com<BR>&gt; Brocade Communications Systems &nbsp; 
  &nbsp; phone: &nbsp;408 487 8135<BR>&gt; 1745 Technology Drive<BR>&gt; San 
  Jose, CA 95110<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;-----Original Message-----<BR>&gt; 
  &gt; &nbsp;From: Santosh Rao [mailto:santoshr@cup.hp.com]<BR>&gt; &gt; 
  &nbsp;Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 12:15 PM<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;To: T10 
  Reflector; Fibre Channel T11 reflector<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;Subject: FCP_RSP 
  Residual Checking.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;All,<BR>&gt; 
  &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;I've got a question on target behaviour while sending 
  a</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT><FONT face="Courier New" 
  size=2><BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;CHECK CONDITION<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;SCSI status in 
  its FCP_RSP IU.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;Is the target required to 
  initialize the fields FCP_RESID_UNDER,<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;FCP_RESID_OVER &amp; 
  FCP_RESID when any I/O is completed without the data<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;phase 
  having transferred exactly FCP_DL bytes, regardless of the SCSI<BR>&gt; &gt; 
  &nbsp;Status being returned ?<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;When the target 
  generates a CHECK CONDITION on an I/O and may have<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;returned 
  less than FCP_DL bytes in the data phase for that I/O, is it<BR>&gt; &gt; 
  &nbsp;required to set the FCP_RESID_UNDER to 1 and indicate the number 
  of<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;bytes not transferred in the FCP_RESID field?<BR>&gt; 
  &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;FC-PLDA Section 8.2.4.1 states that :<BR>&gt; &gt; 
  &nbsp;"SCSI targets that transfer less than FCP_DL bytes during<BR>&gt; &gt; 
  &nbsp;the FCP_DATA<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;IUs shall set the FCP_RESID_UNDER to 
  1".<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;No exceptions are specified in the case of 
  a CHECK CONDITION in the<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;above definition, implying that 
  FCP_RSP residual checking can be<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;performed irrespective of 
  the SCSI Status that was returned in the<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;FCP_RSP.<BR>&gt; 
  &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;However, the wording descriptions of 
  FCP_RESID_UNDER,<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;FCP_RESID_OVER &amp;<BR>&gt; &gt; 
  &nbsp;FCP_RESID in SCSI-FCP &amp; FCP-2 are not as stringent as<BR>&gt; &gt; 
  &nbsp;FC-PLDA and do not<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;mandate that FCP_RESID_UNDER shall 
  be set when the data<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;transferred is &lt;<BR>&gt; &gt; 
  &nbsp;FCP_DL.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;What is the behaviour initiators 
  can expect under the above<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;condition ?<BR>&gt; &gt; 
  &nbsp;Is there a conflict in the behaviours described by FCP/FCP-2<BR>&gt; 
  &gt; &nbsp;&amp; FC-PLDA ?<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &nbsp;Thanks,<BR>&gt; 
  &gt; &nbsp;Santosh Rao<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR><BR>-- <BR>Education is when you read 
  the fine print. <BR>Experience is what you get if you don't.</FONT><FONT 
  face="Times New Roman" 
size=3><BR><BR><BR></FONT><BR><BR></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------_=_NextPart_001_01C23C98.4D78E7A0--


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Mon Aug  5 15:49:13 2002
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To: Black_David@emc.com
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Importance: High
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: RE: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues
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David,

the current text already says this but how about?

The Residual Count field MUST be valid in the case where either the U bit 
or the O bit is set. If neither bit is set, the Residual Count field is 
reserved. Targets may set the residual count and initiators may use it 
when the response code is "completed at target" (even if the status 
returned is not GOOD). If the O bit is set, the Residual Count indicates 
the number of bytes that were not transferred because the initiator's 
Expected Data Transfer Length was not sufficient. If the U bit is set, the 
Residual Count indicates the number of bytes that were not transferred out 
of the number of bytes expected to be transferred.

Julo




Black_David@emc.com
08/05/2002 06:53 PM

 
        To:     Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL
        cc:     ips@ece.cmu.edu
        Subject:        RE: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues

 

Julian,
 
Text is ok, but please add a sentence to avoid the confusion over
Status that occurred at the plugfest - SCSI permits
a residual count to be returned for status values other than GOOD.
 
Thanks,
--David
-----Original Message-----
From: Julian Satran [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]
Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 1:14 AM
To: Black_David@emc.com
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues


David, 

We are in violent agreement. SPC3 is explicit about counts only when 
talking about extended copy. 
The only thing I find objectionable is to tell the initiator when to CHECK 
(that is a device class/device/driver issue). 
Some devices for some commands will generate CHECK CONDITION BECAUSE they 
have a residual count. 

That is why I would suggest the following text: 

The Residual Count field MUST be valid in the case where either the U bit 
or the O bit is set. If neither bit is set, the Residual Count field is 
reserved. Targets may set residual count and initiators may use it when 
the response code is completed at target. If the O bit is set, the 
Residual Count indicates the number of bytes that were not transferred 
because the initiator's Expected Data Transfer Length was not sufficient. 
If the U bit is set, the Residual Count indicates the number of bytes that 
were not transferred out of the number of bytes expected to be 
transferred. 

Julo 



Black_David@emc.com 
08/03/2002 01:50 AM 
        
        To:        Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL 
        cc:        ips@ece.cmu.edu 
        Subject:        RE: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues 

 


Julian, 
  
Matching FCP's wording resulted in a "go ask the expert" algorithm 
for figuring out what is required - we ought to do better, and this 
is an iSCSI protocol issue.  What I'm looking for in 9.4 is: 
  
- Bits 3-6 (o, u, O, U) MAY be set by the Target and SHOULD be checked 
    by the Initiator when the Response is "Command Completed at Target" 
    no matter what the value of the Status field is. 
- SCSI permits Residual Counts to be returned for Status values other 
    than GOOD; see [SPC2]. 
  
I believe that both of these are implied by the current text, but since 
this caused confusion at the plugfest, we ought to spell it out. 
  
Thanks, 
--David 
---------------------------------------------------
David L. Black, Senior Technologist
EMC Corporation, 42 South St., Hopkinton, MA  01748
+1 (508) 249-6449            FAX: +1 (508) 497-8018
black_david@emc.com       Mobile: +1 (978) 394-7754
--------------------------------------------------- 
-----Original Message-----
From: Julian Satran [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]
Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 1:43 AM
To: Black_David@emc.com
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues


David, 

We DO EXACTLY what FCP did  - say nothing. 
I went through the document - thetre is no relation mentioned and that is 
what we do too. 

In any case we cannot enforce a SCSI behavior. 
The expectation is obvious that if SCSI hands obver counts those will be 
carried by iSCSI. 

I also suspect that the trouble may be deeper than we think and I find it 
much more prudent 
to say nothing (again as FCP did). 

Julo 



Black_David@emc.com 
08/01/2002 05:56 PM 
        
       To:        Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL 
       cc:        ips@ece.cmu.edu 
       Subject:        RE: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues 

 



Julian, 
 
I think we need to do something here, as there are clearly 
situations in which the residual count is important for commands that 
complete with other than good status, making the "other point of 
view" reported by Robert Russell incorrect.  Waiting for SPC-3 to 
do something to clarify this isn't going to do much for iSCSI 
interoperability in the short term.  Since Bob Snively was the 
Technical Editor of FCP-2, he tends to be correct about what FCP-2 
requires or intends - I suggest we follow FCP-2, and say that the 
O/o/U/u bits are valid in all cases (of course, if none of them 
are set, the Residual Count field is not valid). 
 
Thanks, 
--David 
---------------------------------------------------
David L. Black, Senior Technologist
EMC Corporation, 42 South St., Hopkinton, MA  01748
+1 (508) 249-6449            FAX: +1 (508) 497-8018
black_david@emc.com       Mobile: +1 (978) 394-7754
--------------------------------------------------- 
-----Original Message-----
From: Julian Satran [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 3:26 AM
To: Santosh Rao
Cc: IPS Reflector; rdr@io.iol.unh.edu; Robert Snively; 
santoshr@hpcuhe.cup.hp.com; T10 Reflector
Subject: Re: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues


Santosh, 

I think that this behaviour should be specified by SPC3. I looked (again) 
into the FCP docs and like iSCSI they do not say anything beyond 
iSCSI says. Like iSCSI they specify that the field is valid when the Oo/Uu 
bits are set but nothing about how those bits relate to status. 
SPC says nothing about that either  (beyond that the bits set are not 
necessarily an indication of error). 

Julo 

Santosh Rao <santoshr@cup.hp.com> 
Sent by: santoshr@hpcuhe.cup.hp.com 
08/01/2002 03:44 AM 
        
      To:        IPS Reflector <ips@ece.cmu.edu>, Julian 
Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL, rdr@io.iol.unh.edu 
      cc:        Robert Snively <rsnively@brocade.com>, T10 Reflector 
<t10@t10.org> 
      Subject:        Re: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues 

 




Julian & Robert [Russell],

I raised the same query regarding RESID for FCP/FCP-2 this time last
year. The response I got for FCP/FCP-2 was that RESID information shall
be valid, regardless of the scsi status returned. The RESID field, can
be checked by the scsi transport drivers independent of the SCSI STATUS.

I have enclosed the T10 response from Rob Snivelly below on that issue.
As per FC-PLDA, the RESID information is valid, regardless of the scsi
status returned by the device. 

An example of this is the case of "NO SENSE" or "RECOVERED ERROR" check
condition, when the data transfer may have taken place and a CHECK
CONDITION is returned. Also, for other CHECK CONDITION status', partial
data transfer may have taken place and hence, resid information should
be present.

It would be good to maintain consistent behaviour across the scsi
transports in this regard, since protocol bridging from iscsi to FCP
domain would expect RESID information in the FCP domain, regardless of
scsi status.

This also allows scsi transports to remain free of SCSI command set
details. (ex : the scsi transport drivers do not need to parse for CHECK
CONDITION or GOO status information.)

Thanks,
Santosh


-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues
Date:    Thu, 1 Aug 2002 02:52:19 +0300
From:   "Julian Satran" <Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com>
To:     "Robert D. Russell" <rdr@io.iol.unh.edu>
CC:     ips@ece.cmu.edu

Bob, 

Thanks - some comments in text. Julo 


"Robert D. Russell" <rdr@io.iol.unh.edu> 
 
Julian:

Four issues came up today at the iSCSI plugfest:

1. A question about whether or not the Residual Count field and the
appropriate O and U bits need to be computed on all SCSI Response
PDUs, regardless of the values in the Status and/or Response fields.

One point of view says that the Residual Count field and the O and U
bits appear to be strictly iSCSI values that are derived by the
iSCSI target layer from the ExpectedDataTransferLength field of the
SCSI Command PDU and the DataSegmentLength fields of the DataIn or
DataOut PDUs sent as part of this command.  Therefore ,the iSCSI
target always computes a Residual Count value without regard to the
Status and/or Response fields, since these are SCSI values.

The other point of view says that the Residual Count field, and the
O and U bits, need only be set when the Status and Response fields
indicate that the command was completed at the target with a GOOD
Status, and the target does not have to compute or set the Residual
Count field and the O or U bits for other values of the Status and/or
Response fields.

Which is it?  In any case, could this be clarified somewhere in the
standard, most likely in section 9.4.4.

+++ Residual count fields are in fact carrioed over from the SCSI layer. 
I know that none of the SCSI docs specifies
exactly their behavior and it strikes me as a bad idea to have protocols
specify them. 
The values should be valid any time the target decides to put them in. 
+++


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: RE: FCP_RSP Residual Checking.
Date:    Thu, 5 Jul 2001 13:18:42 -0700
From:    Robert Snively <rsnively@brocade.com>
To:      "'Santosh Rao'" <santoshr@cup.hp.com>, 
      T10 Reflector <t10@t10.org>, 
      Fibre Channel T11 reflector <fc@network.com>

Robert Snively wrote:
> 
> >  Is the target required to initialize the fields FCP_RESID_UNDER,
> >  FCP_RESID_OVER & FCP_RESID when any I/O is completed
> >  without the data phase having transferred exactly
> >  FCP_DL bytes, regardless of the SCSI Status being returned ?
> 
> >  When the target generates a CHECK CONDITION on an I/O
> >  and may have returned less than FCP_DL bytes in the data
> >  phase for that I/O, is it
> >  required to set the FCP_RESID_UNDER to 1 and indicate the number of
> >  bytes not transferred in the FCP_RESID field?
> 
> The intent is that the answer to your second question is:
> FCP_RESID should appropriately regardless of the SCSI Status
> being returned.  The classic errors of that class are those
> involving successful completion with reporting, like
> the "NO SENSE" and "RECOVERED ERROR" series of errors.
> 
> >
> >  What is the behaviour initiators can expect under the above
> >  condition ?
> 
> The intent is that there be no conflict.  I believe that FCP-2
> was a bit less bald than FC-PLDA in stating the requirement.
> 
> >  Is there a conflict in the behaviours described by FCP/FCP-2
> >  & FC-PLDA ?
> >
> 
> Bob Snively                        e-mail:    rsnively@brocade.com
> Brocade Communications Systems     phone:  408 487 8135
> 1745 Technology Drive
> San Jose, CA 95110
> 
> >  -----Original Message-----
> >  From: Santosh Rao [mailto:santoshr@cup.hp.com]
> >  Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 12:15 PM
> >  To: T10 Reflector; Fibre Channel T11 reflector
> >  Subject: FCP_RSP Residual Checking.
> >
> >
> >  All,
> >
> >  I've got a question on target behaviour while sending a 
> >  CHECK CONDITION
> >  SCSI status in its FCP_RSP IU.
> >
> >  Is the target required to initialize the fields FCP_RESID_UNDER,
> >  FCP_RESID_OVER & FCP_RESID when any I/O is completed without the data
> >  phase having transferred exactly FCP_DL bytes, regardless of the SCSI
> >  Status being returned ?
> >
> >  When the target generates a CHECK CONDITION on an I/O and may have
> >  returned less than FCP_DL bytes in the data phase for that I/O, is it
> >  required to set the FCP_RESID_UNDER to 1 and indicate the number of
> >  bytes not transferred in the FCP_RESID field?
> >
> >  FC-PLDA Section 8.2.4.1 states that :
> >  "SCSI targets that transfer less than FCP_DL bytes during
> >  the FCP_DATA
> >  IUs shall set the FCP_RESID_UNDER to 1".
> >
> >  No exceptions are specified in the case of a CHECK CONDITION in the
> >  above definition, implying that FCP_RSP residual checking can be
> >  performed irrespective of the SCSI Status that was returned in the
> >  FCP_RSP.
> >
> >  However, the wording descriptions of FCP_RESID_UNDER,
> >  FCP_RESID_OVER &
> >  FCP_RESID in SCSI-FCP & FCP-2 are not as stringent as
> >  FC-PLDA and do not
> >  mandate that FCP_RESID_UNDER shall be set when the data
> >  transferred is <
> >  FCP_DL.
> >
> >  What is the behaviour initiators can expect under the above
> >  condition ?
> >  Is there a conflict in the behaviours described by FCP/FCP-2
> >  & FC-PLDA ?
> >
> >  Thanks,
> >  Santosh Rao
> >

-- 
Education is when you read the fine print. 
Experience is what you get if you don't.






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<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">David,</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">the current text already says this but how about?</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="Courier New">The Residual Count field MUST be valid in the case where either the U bit or the O bit is set. If neither bit is set, the Residual Count field is reserved. Targets may set the residual count and initiators may use it when the response code is &quot;completed at target&quot; (even if the status returned is not GOOD). If the O bit is set, the Residual Count indicates the number of bytes that were not transferred because the initiator's Expected Data Transfer Length was not sufficient. If the U bit is set, the Residual Count indicates the number of bytes that were not transferred out of the number of bytes expected to be transferred.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Julo</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>Black_David@emc.com</b></font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">08/05/2002 06:53 PM</font>
<br>
<td><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;ips@ece.cmu.edu</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;RE: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues</font>
<br>
<br><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font></table>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">Julian,</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">Text is ok, but please add a sentence to avoid the confusion over</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">Status that occurred at the plugfest - SCSI permits</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">a residual count to be returned for status values other than GOOD.</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">Thanks,</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">--David</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Tahoma">-----Original Message-----<b><br>
From:</b> Julian Satran [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]<b><br>
Sent:</b> Saturday, August 03, 2002 1:14 AM<b><br>
To:</b> Black_David@emc.com<b><br>
Cc:</b> ips@ece.cmu.edu<b><br>
Subject:</b> RE: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues<br>
</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
David,</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
</font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
We are in violent agreement. SPC3 is explicit about counts only when talking about extended copy.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
The only thing I find objectionable is to tell the initiator when to CHECK (that is a device class/device/driver issue).</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
Some devices for some commands will generate CHECK CONDITION BECAUSE they have a residual count.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
</font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
That is why I would suggest the following text:</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
</font><font size=3 face="Courier New"><br>
The Residual Count field MUST be valid in the case where either the U bit or the O bit is set. If neither bit is set, the Residual Count field is reserved. Targets may set residual count and initiators may use it when the response code is completed at target. If the O bit is set, the Residual Count indicates the number of bytes that were not transferred because the initiator's Expected Data Transfer Length was not sufficient. If the U bit is set, the Residual Count indicates the number of bytes that were not transferred out of the number of bytes expected to be transferred.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
</font><font size=3 face="Courier New"><br>
Julo</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
<br>
</font>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td width=3%>
<td width=37%><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>Black_David@emc.com</b></font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">08/03/2002 01:50 AM</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<td width=59%><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </font><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;ips@ece.cmu.edu</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;RE: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
</font><font size=1 face="Arial"><br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </font></table>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><br>
</font><font size=2 face="Courier New"><br>
Julian,</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
 &nbsp;</font><font size=2 face="Courier New"><br>
Matching FCP's wording resulted in a &quot;go ask the expert&quot; algorithm</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Courier New"><br>
for figuring out what is required - we ought to do better, and this</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Courier New"><br>
is an iSCSI protocol issue. &nbsp;What I'm looking for in 9.4 is:</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
 &nbsp;</font><font size=2 face="Courier New"><br>
- Bits 3-6 (o, u, O, U) MAY be set by the Target and SHOULD be checked</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Courier New"><br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp;by the Initiator when the Response is &quot;Command Completed at Target&quot;</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Courier New"><br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp;no matter what the value of the Status field is.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Courier New"><br>
- SCSI permits Residual Counts to be returned for Status values other</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Courier New"><br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp;than GOOD; see [SPC2].</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
 &nbsp;</font><font size=2 face="Courier New"><br>
I believe that both of these are implied by the current text, but since</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Courier New"><br>
this caused confusion at the plugfest, we ought to spell it out.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
 &nbsp;</font><font size=2 face="Courier New"><br>
Thanks,</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Courier New"><br>
--David</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<p><font size=2 face="Courier New">---------------------------------------------------<br>
David L. Black, Senior Technologist<br>
EMC Corporation, 42 South St., Hopkinton, MA &nbsp;01748<br>
+1 (508) 249-6449 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;FAX: +1 (508) 497-8018<br>
black_david@emc.com &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Mobile: +1 (978) 394-7754<br>
---------------------------------------------------</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<p><font size=2 face="Tahoma">-----Original Message-----<b><br>
From:</b> Julian Satran [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]<b><br>
Sent:</b> Friday, August 02, 2002 1:43 AM<b><br>
To:</b> Black_David@emc.com<b><br>
Cc:</b> ips@ece.cmu.edu<b><br>
Subject:</b> RE: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><br>
</font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
<br>
David,</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
<br>
We DO EXACTLY what FCP did &nbsp;- say nothing.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
I went through the document - thetre is no relation mentioned and that is what we do too.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
<br>
In any case we cannot enforce a SCSI behavior.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
The expectation is obvious that if SCSI hands obver counts those will be carried by iSCSI.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
<br>
I also suspect that the trouble may be deeper than we think and I find it much more prudent <br>
to say nothing (again as FCP did).</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
<br>
Julo</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
<br>
</font>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td width=3%>
<td width=37%><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>Black_David@emc.com</b></font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">08/01/2002 05:56 PM</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<td width=58%><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </font><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;ips@ece.cmu.edu</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;RE: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=1 face="Arial"><br>
<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font></table>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><br>
</font><font size=2 face="Courier New"><br>
<br>
Julian,</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
 </font><font size=2 face="Courier New"><br>
I think we need to do something here, as there are clearly</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Courier New"><br>
situations in which the residual count is important for commands that</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Courier New"><br>
complete with other than good status, making the &quot;other point of</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Courier New"><br>
view&quot; reported by Robert Russell incorrect. &nbsp;Waiting for SPC-3 to</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Courier New"><br>
do something to clarify this isn't going to do much for iSCSI</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Courier New"><br>
interoperability in the short term. &nbsp;Since Bob Snively was the</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Courier New"><br>
Technical Editor of FCP-2, he tends to be correct about what FCP-2</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Courier New"><br>
requires or intends - I suggest we follow FCP-2, and say that the</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Courier New"><br>
O/o/U/u bits are valid in all cases (of course, if none of them</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Courier New"><br>
are set, the Residual Count field is not valid).</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
 </font><font size=2 face="Courier New"><br>
Thanks,</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Courier New"><br>
--David</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<p><font size=2 face="Courier New">---------------------------------------------------<br>
David L. Black, Senior Technologist<br>
EMC Corporation, 42 South St., Hopkinton, MA &nbsp;01748<br>
+1 (508) 249-6449 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;FAX: +1 (508) 497-8018<br>
black_david@emc.com &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Mobile: +1 (978) 394-7754<br>
---------------------------------------------------</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<p><font size=2 face="Tahoma">-----Original Message-----<b><br>
From:</b> Julian Satran [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]<b><br>
Sent:</b> Thursday, August 01, 2002 3:26 AM<b><br>
To:</b> Santosh Rao<b><br>
Cc:</b> IPS Reflector; rdr@io.iol.unh.edu; Robert Snively; santoshr@hpcuhe.cup.hp.com; T10 Reflector<b><br>
Subject:</b> Re: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues</font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
<br>
<br>
Santosh,</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
<br>
I think that this behaviour should be specified by SPC3. I looked (again) into the FCP docs and like iSCSI they do not say anything beyond</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
iSCSI says. Like iSCSI they specify that the field is valid when the Oo/Uu bits are set but nothing about how those bits relate to status.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
SPC says nothing about that either &nbsp;(beyond that the bits set are not necessarily an indication of error). <br>
<br>
Julo</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td width=1%>
<td width=31%><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>Santosh Rao &lt;santoshr@cup.hp.com&gt;</b></font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><br>
Sent by: santoshr@hpcuhe.cup.hp.com</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">08/01/2002 03:44 AM</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<td width=66%><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </font><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;IPS Reflector &lt;ips@ece.cmu.edu&gt;, Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL, rdr@io.iol.unh.edu</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Robert Snively &lt;rsnively@brocade.com&gt;, T10 Reflector &lt;t10@t10.org&gt;</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Re: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=1 face="Arial"><br>
<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; </font></table>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><br>
</font><font size=2 face="Courier New"><br>
<br>
<br>
Julian &amp; Robert [Russell],<br>
<br>
I raised the same query regarding RESID for FCP/FCP-2 this time last<br>
year. The response I got for FCP/FCP-2 was that RESID information shall<br>
be valid, regardless of the scsi status returned. The RESID field, can<br>
be checked by the scsi transport drivers independent of the SCSI STATUS.<br>
<br>
I have enclosed the T10 response from Rob Snivelly below on that issue.<br>
As per FC-PLDA, the RESID information is valid, regardless of the scsi<br>
status returned by the device. <br>
<br>
An example of this is the case of &quot;NO SENSE&quot; or &quot;RECOVERED ERROR&quot; check<br>
condition, when the data transfer may have taken place and a CHECK<br>
CONDITION is returned. Also, for other CHECK CONDITION status', partial<br>
data transfer may have taken place and hence, resid information should<br>
be present.<br>
<br>
It would be good to maintain consistent behaviour across the scsi<br>
transports in this regard, since protocol bridging from iscsi to FCP<br>
domain would expect RESID information in the FCP domain, regardless of<br>
scsi status.<br>
<br>
This also allows scsi transports to remain free of SCSI command set<br>
details. (ex : the scsi transport drivers do not need to parse for CHECK<br>
CONDITION or GOO status information.)<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
Santosh<br>
<br>
<br>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Subject: Re: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues<br>
Date: &nbsp; &nbsp;Thu, 1 Aug 2002 02:52:19 +0300<br>
From: &nbsp; &quot;Julian Satran&quot; &lt;Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com&gt;<br>
To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &quot;Robert D. Russell&quot; &lt;rdr@io.iol.unh.edu&gt;<br>
CC: &nbsp; &nbsp; ips@ece.cmu.edu<br>
<br>
Bob, <br>
<br>
Thanks - some comments in text. Julo <br>
<br>
<br>
&quot;Robert D. Russell&quot; &lt;rdr@io.iol.unh.edu&gt; <br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; <br>
Julian:<br>
<br>
Four issues came up today at the iSCSI plugfest:<br>
<br>
1. A question about whether or not the Residual Count field and the<br>
appropriate O and U bits need to be computed on all SCSI Response<br>
PDUs, regardless of the values in the Status and/or Response fields.<br>
<br>
One point of view says that the Residual Count field and the O and U<br>
bits appear to be strictly iSCSI values that are derived by the<br>
iSCSI target layer from the ExpectedDataTransferLength field of the<br>
SCSI Command PDU and the DataSegmentLength fields of the DataIn or<br>
DataOut PDUs sent as part of this command. &nbsp;Therefore ,the iSCSI<br>
target always computes a Residual Count value without regard to the<br>
Status and/or Response fields, since these are SCSI values.<br>
<br>
The other point of view says that the Residual Count field, and the<br>
O and U bits, need only be set when the Status and Response fields<br>
indicate that the command was completed at the target with a GOOD<br>
Status, and the target does not have to compute or set the Residual<br>
Count field and the O or U bits for other values of the Status and/or<br>
Response fields.<br>
<br>
Which is it? &nbsp;In any case, could this be clarified somewhere in the<br>
standard, most likely in section 9.4.4.<br>
<br>
+++ Residual count fields are in fact carrioed over from the SCSI layer.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Courier New"><br>
I know that none of the SCSI docs specifies<br>
exactly their behavior and it strikes me as a bad idea to have protocols<br>
specify them. <br>
The values should be valid any time the target decides to put them in. <br>
+++<br>
<br>
<br>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
Subject: RE: FCP_RSP Residual Checking.<br>
Date: &nbsp; &nbsp;Thu, 5 Jul 2001 13:18:42 -0700<br>
From: &nbsp; &nbsp;Robert Snively &lt;rsnively@brocade.com&gt;<br>
To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&quot;'Santosh Rao'&quot; &lt;santoshr@cup.hp.com&gt;, <br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;T10 Reflector &lt;t10@t10.org&gt;, <br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Fibre Channel T11 reflector &lt;fc@network.com&gt;<br>
<br>
Robert Snively wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;Is the target required to initialize the fields FCP_RESID_UNDER,<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;FCP_RESID_OVER &amp; FCP_RESID when any I/O is completed<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;without the data phase having transferred exactly<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;FCP_DL bytes, regardless of the SCSI Status being returned ?<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;When the target generates a CHECK CONDITION on an I/O<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;and may have returned less than FCP_DL bytes in the data<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;phase for that I/O, is it<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;required to set the FCP_RESID_UNDER to 1 and indicate the number of<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;bytes not transferred in the FCP_RESID field?<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; The intent is that the answer to your second question is:<br>
&gt; FCP_RESID should appropriately regardless of the SCSI Status<br>
&gt; being returned. &nbsp;The classic errors of that class are those<br>
&gt; involving successful completion with reporting, like<br>
&gt; the &quot;NO SENSE&quot; and &quot;RECOVERED ERROR&quot; series of errors.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;What is the behaviour initiators can expect under the above<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;condition ?<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; The intent is that there be no conflict. &nbsp;I believe that FCP-2<br>
&gt; was a bit less bald than FC-PLDA in stating the requirement.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;Is there a conflict in the behaviours described by FCP/FCP-2<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;&amp; FC-PLDA ?<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Bob Snively &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;e-mail: &nbsp; &nbsp;rsnively@brocade.com<br>
&gt; Brocade Communications Systems &nbsp; &nbsp; phone: &nbsp;408 487 8135<br>
&gt; 1745 Technology Drive<br>
&gt; San Jose, CA 95110<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;-----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;From: Santosh Rao [mailto:santoshr@cup.hp.com]<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 12:15 PM<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;To: T10 Reflector; Fibre Channel T11 reflector<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;Subject: FCP_RSP Residual Checking.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;All,<br>
&gt; &gt;</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">&gt; &gt; &nbsp;I've got a question on target behaviour while sending a</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Courier New"><br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;CHECK CONDITION<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;SCSI status in its FCP_RSP IU.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;Is the target required to initialize the fields FCP_RESID_UNDER,<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;FCP_RESID_OVER &amp; FCP_RESID when any I/O is completed without the data<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;phase having transferred exactly FCP_DL bytes, regardless of the SCSI<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;Status being returned ?<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;When the target generates a CHECK CONDITION on an I/O and may have<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;returned less than FCP_DL bytes in the data phase for that I/O, is it<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;required to set the FCP_RESID_UNDER to 1 and indicate the number of<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;bytes not transferred in the FCP_RESID field?<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;FC-PLDA Section 8.2.4.1 states that :<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;&quot;SCSI targets that transfer less than FCP_DL bytes during<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;the FCP_DATA<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;IUs shall set the FCP_RESID_UNDER to 1&quot;.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;No exceptions are specified in the case of a CHECK CONDITION in the<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;above definition, implying that FCP_RSP residual checking can be<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;performed irrespective of the SCSI Status that was returned in the<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;FCP_RSP.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;However, the wording descriptions of FCP_RESID_UNDER,<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;FCP_RESID_OVER &amp;<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;FCP_RESID in SCSI-FCP &amp; FCP-2 are not as stringent as<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;FC-PLDA and do not<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;mandate that FCP_RESID_UNDER shall be set when the data<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;transferred is &lt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;FCP_DL.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;What is the behaviour initiators can expect under the above<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;condition ?<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;Is there a conflict in the behaviours described by FCP/FCP-2<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;&amp; FC-PLDA ?<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;Thanks,<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp;Santosh Rao<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Education is when you read the fine print. <br>
Experience is what you get if you don't.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</font>
<br>
<br>
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From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Mon Aug  5 22:33:05 2002
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Subject: iSCSI version 15 draft
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On behalf of the team of authors and as part of the IETF-IPS working group 

I submit a draft for immediate publication.

The text and pdf versions can be found at:

http://www.haifa.il.ibm.com/satran/ips/draft-ietf-ips-iscsi-15txt

http://www.haifa.il.ibm.com/satran/ips/draft-ietf-ips-iscsi-15.pdf


This version completely replaces:

draft-ietf-ips-iscsi-14.txt and pdf



Julian Satran - IBM Research Laboratory at Haifa






























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<br>
<br>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">On behalf of the team of authors and as part of the IETF-IPS working group </font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">I submit a draft for immediate publication.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">The text and pdf versions can be found at:</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">http://www.haifa.il.ibm.com/satran/ips/draft-ietf-ips-iscsi-15txt</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">http://www.haifa.il.ibm.com/satran/ips/draft-ietf-ips-iscsi-15.pdf</font>
<br>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">This version completely replaces:</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">draft-ietf-ips-iscsi-14.txt and pdf</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Julian Satran - IBM Research Laboratory at Haifa</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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<br>
<br>
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<br>
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<br>
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<br>
<br>
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--=_alternative 000ADAA8C2256C0D_=--


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Tue Aug  6 13:04:09 2002
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From: "shesha bhushan" <bhushan_vadulas@hotmail.com>
To: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: iSCSI and target IDS
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 16:13:36 +0000
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Hi,
  I have connected an array of disks to a Linux box, and I am running iSCSI 
on that Linux box. There are multiple disks each with unique target IDs. I 
understand the fact that, depending on the iSCSI names, we have to decide to 
which disk we need to communicate.

Say I have decided that eas.asu.edu.disk1 is target ID 1 and 
eas.asu.edu.disk2 is target Id2. Once I have iSCSI target names(say 
eas.asu.edu.disk2) at iSCSI target, how to specify to SCSI initiator that I 
need to communicate with the device having target ID 2  ???

Can it be done at the SCSI subsystem level or at the SCSI driver level.
Please let me know.

Thanks
Shesha
Arizona State University


_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Tue Aug  6 13:57:30 2002
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From: "Anshul Chadda" <anshul.chadda@trebia.com>
To: "shesha bhushan" <bhushan_vadulas@hotmail.com>
Cc: <ips@ece.cmu.edu>
References: <F65tneqdGSyMp69YDqS0001746b@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: iSCSI and target IDS
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 13:20:58 -0400
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I think it should be done at the SCSI driver level(iSCSI). The SCSI
subsystem need not know the details about the underlying interconnect
whether it be iSCSI, FCP, or some bus. So, a typical I/O (started by a user)
is done to some /dev/sdx. This /dev/sdx gets resolved into target ID at the
SCSI subsystem level. The target ID can resolve into session ID/target name
at the iSCSI driver level.

Hope this helps!!

Anshul Chadda
Trebia Networks
Acton, MA 01720

----- Original Message -----
From: "shesha bhushan" <bhushan_vadulas@hotmail.com>
To: <ips@ece.cmu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 12:13 PM
Subject: iSCSI and target IDS


> Hi,
>   I have connected an array of disks to a Linux box, and I am running
iSCSI
> on that Linux box. There are multiple disks each with unique target IDs. I
> understand the fact that, depending on the iSCSI names, we have to decide
to
> which disk we need to communicate.
>
> Say I have decided that eas.asu.edu.disk1 is target ID 1 and
> eas.asu.edu.disk2 is target Id2. Once I have iSCSI target names(say
> eas.asu.edu.disk2) at iSCSI target, how to specify to SCSI initiator that
I
> need to communicate with the device having target ID 2  ???
>
> Can it be done at the SCSI subsystem level or at the SCSI driver level.
> Please let me know.
>
> Thanks
> Shesha
> Arizona State University
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com



From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Tue Aug  6 15:10:31 2002
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From: "Tony Battersby" <tonyb@cybernetics.com>
To: <ips@ece.cmu.edu>
Subject: Unsolicited data PDU retry
Date:  Tue, 6 Aug 2002 14:22:18 -0400
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In section 5.2.1 Usage of Retry (draft 15), it is specified that initiators
can resend commands that have not been acknowledged for a timeout period.
Does this retry include re-sending unsolicited data PDU's?  The target is
supposed to ignore non-immediate commands with duplicate CmdSN's or CmdSN's
outside the expected range, which takes care of immediate data, but I don't
see anywhere where it is specified that the target should ignore duplicate
or unexpected unsolicited data PDUs.  Or, is the target supposed to hold on
to unsolicited data PDU's for a command that it does not know about (e.g.
because the command PDU was discarded due to a digest error) and then later
re-associate the unsolicited data PDU's with the correct command when the
command PDU is re-sent by the initiator?

The last paragraph of section 2.4.2.2 gives some rules for the ordering of
unsolicited data for different commands, which may also be related.

Thanks,
Anthony J. Battersby
Cybernetics


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Tue Aug  6 20:42:16 2002
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From: pat_thaler@agilent.com
To: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: Markers
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 17:57:36 -0600 
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I was reading the text of Appendix A and noticed an ambiguity.

The text says:
The Marker indicates the offset to the next iSCSI PDU header. The 
   Marker is eight bytes in length and contains two 32-bit offset fields 
   that indicate how many bytes to skip in the TCP stream in order to 
   find the next iSCSI PDU header. The marker uses two copies of the 
   pointer so that a marker that spans a TCP packet boundary should 
   leave at least one valid copy in one of the packets.

From this text, it is not clear whether the two "copies" of the marker are identical copies or whether each marker specifies how many bytes to skip from its position in the stream. It also isn't entirely clear where the count of bytes to skip starts (which is related to the first). 

For example, if a PDU starts right after a marker:

      Next-iSCSI-PDU-start pointer - copy #1
      Next-iSCSI-PDU-start pointer - copy #2
      PDU header start

Do Copy #1 and Copy #2 both contain 0x00000000, or does copy #1 contain 0x00000004 because the packet starts 4 bytes after copy 1 while copy #2 contains 0x00000000
because the packet starts 0 bytes after copy 2? 

Since "copy" implies they are the same, I think they should both contain 0x00000000.

This could be clarified by adding, "The count of bytes begins with the first byte after the Marker." One could also include the example above.

Regards,
Pat



From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Tue Aug  6 22:26:43 2002
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From: Mike Donohoe <Mike.Donohoe@quantum.com>
To: "'ips@ece.cmu.edu'" <ips@ece.cmu.edu>
Subject: iSCSI: Command handling
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 16:16:28 -0700 
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>From v15 2.2.2.1 pg29

An iSCSI target MUST be able to handle
at least one immediate task management command and one immediate
non-task-management iSCSI command per connection at any time.



Thus, as a minimum, a target must handle 3 commands at a time?
	assuming only 1 session and ExpCmdSn = MaxCmdSN
	2 immediate (per statement above) + 1 non-immediate command

Thanks.
Mike Donohoe


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Tue Aug  6 22:27:30 2002
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CC: Black_David@emc.com, ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues
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Julian Satran wrote:
> 
> David,
> 
> the current text already says this but how about?
> 
> The Residual Count field MUST be valid in the case where either the U bit or the O bit is set. If
> neither bit is set, the Residual Count field is reserved. Targets may set the residual count and
> initiators may use it when the response code is "completed at target" (even if the status returned
> is not GOOD). If the O bit is set, the Residual Count indicates the number of bytes that were not
> transferred because the initiator's Expected Data Transfer Length was not sufficient. If the U bit
> is set, the Residual Count indicates the number of bytes that were not transferred out of the
> number of bytes expected to be transferred.
> 

I don't see any problems with the residual counts
and the overflow/underflow bits.

The text above is logically equivalent to the meaning
of the current draft.

I also looked at FCP (back when all this started)
and we're at par with it.

I'd only note that when status is CHECK CONDITION
(respoinse = CCT), then residuals SHOULD NOT be set.
I.e. the target SHOULD NOT look inside the sense data
and retrieve them (EXTENDED COPY exception).
This is the responsibility of the ULP at the initiator.

As to the future, I cannot imagine a CHECK CONDITION
status and residuals reported by any other means
than the already established (inside the sense data).
So this condition is as strong as MUST, but should
be left as SHOULD NOT, and probably not mentioned at
all, as is the current matter.

But this is in agreement with the current target spec
as per iSCSI, so no change is needed.

Also, a transport (iSCSI) shouldn't be influenced by
another transport (FCP), but only by the unifying layer,
i.e. SAM-3.

-- 
Luben


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To: Luben Tuikov <luben@splentec.com>
Cc: Black_David@emc.com, ips@ece.cmu.edu, luben@ns.splentec.com
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Subject: Re: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues
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Luben,

You are in SCSI territory not iSCSI. This type of demands are for T10 (and 
I think you are wrong even there).

Julo




Luben Tuikov <luben@splentec.com>
Sent by: luben@ns.splentec.com
08/07/2002 04:44 AM

 
        To:     Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL
        cc:     Black_David@emc.com, ips@ece.cmu.edu
        Subject:        Re: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues

 

Julian Satran wrote:
> 
> David,
> 
> the current text already says this but how about?
> 
> The Residual Count field MUST be valid in the case where either the U 
bit or the O bit is set. If
> neither bit is set, the Residual Count field is reserved. Targets may 
set the residual count and
> initiators may use it when the response code is "completed at target" 
(even if the status returned
> is not GOOD). If the O bit is set, the Residual Count indicates the 
number of bytes that were not
> transferred because the initiator's Expected Data Transfer Length was 
not sufficient. If the U bit
> is set, the Residual Count indicates the number of bytes that were not 
transferred out of the
> number of bytes expected to be transferred.
> 

I don't see any problems with the residual counts
and the overflow/underflow bits.

The text above is logically equivalent to the meaning
of the current draft.

I also looked at FCP (back when all this started)
and we're at par with it.

I'd only note that when status is CHECK CONDITION
(respoinse = CCT), then residuals SHOULD NOT be set.
I.e. the target SHOULD NOT look inside the sense data
and retrieve them (EXTENDED COPY exception).
This is the responsibility of the ULP at the initiator.

As to the future, I cannot imagine a CHECK CONDITION
status and residuals reported by any other means
than the already established (inside the sense data).
So this condition is as strong as MUST, but should
be left as SHOULD NOT, and probably not mentioned at
all, as is the current matter.

But this is in agreement with the current target spec
as per iSCSI, so no change is needed.

Also, a transport (iSCSI) shouldn't be influenced by
another transport (FCP), but only by the unifying layer,
i.e. SAM-3.

-- 
Luben



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<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Luben,</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">You are in SCSI territory not iSCSI. This type of demands are for T10 (and I think you are wrong even there).</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Julo</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>Luben Tuikov &lt;luben@splentec.com&gt;</b></font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Sent by: luben@ns.splentec.com</font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">08/07/2002 04:44 AM</font>
<br>
<td><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Black_David@emc.com, ips@ece.cmu.edu</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Re: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues</font>
<br>
<br><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font></table>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">Julian Satran wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; David,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; the current text already says this but how about?<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; The Residual Count field MUST be valid in the case where either the U bit or the O bit is set. If<br>
&gt; neither bit is set, the Residual Count field is reserved. Targets may set the residual count and<br>
&gt; initiators may use it when the response code is &quot;completed at target&quot; (even if the status returned<br>
&gt; is not GOOD). If the O bit is set, the Residual Count indicates the number of bytes that were not<br>
&gt; transferred because the initiator's Expected Data Transfer Length was not sufficient. If the U bit<br>
&gt; is set, the Residual Count indicates the number of bytes that were not transferred out of the<br>
&gt; number of bytes expected to be transferred.<br>
&gt; <br>
<br>
I don't see any problems with the residual counts<br>
and the overflow/underflow bits.<br>
<br>
The text above is logically equivalent to the meaning<br>
of the current draft.<br>
<br>
I also looked at FCP (back when all this started)<br>
and we're at par with it.<br>
<br>
I'd only note that when status is CHECK CONDITION<br>
(respoinse = CCT), then residuals SHOULD NOT be set.<br>
I.e. the target SHOULD NOT look inside the sense data<br>
and retrieve them (EXTENDED COPY exception).<br>
This is the responsibility of the ULP at the initiator.<br>
<br>
As to the future, I cannot imagine a CHECK CONDITION<br>
status and residuals reported by any other means<br>
than the already established (inside the sense data).<br>
So this condition is as strong as MUST, but should<br>
be left as SHOULD NOT, and probably not mentioned at<br>
all, as is the current matter.<br>
<br>
But this is in agreement with the current target spec<br>
as per iSCSI, so no change is needed.<br>
<br>
Also, a transport (iSCSI) shouldn't be influenced by<br>
another transport (FCP), but only by the unifying layer,<br>
i.e. SAM-3.<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Luben<br>
</font>
<br>
<br>
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
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	Title		: iSCSI
	Author(s)	: J. Satran et al.
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From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Wed Aug  7 10:43:39 2002
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Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 19:16:42 -0700
From: "Michael J. S. Smith (PacBell)" <smithmjs@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Markers
To: pat_thaler@agilent.com, ips@ece.cmu.edu
Cc: "Michael J. S. Smith (iReady)" <msmith@iready.com>
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MarkersI helped write our hardware specification on this issue and going over the specification again just now, I realized that I referenced the Internet draft for the definitive description of marker insertion. So, I certainly have an interest in getting this right.

>> From this text, it is not clear whether the two "copies" of the marker are identical copies 

Pat, you are right, you need to look beyond the text that you quoted to get clarity. Some ambiguity is resolved when you realize that markers "don't count". 

 [quote]

   The Marker scheme uses payload byte stream counting that includes 
   every byte placed by iSCSI in the TCP stream except for the markers 
   themselves. It also excludes any bytes that TCP counts but are not 
   originated by iSCSI.
    
[end quote]

Thus,

1. Since "counting ... includes every byte ... except for the markers themselves," I believe the markers are both identical (in particular, the count in the two markers is the same, since we don't count the marker bytes).

[quote]
   Marker is eight bytes in length and contains two 32-bit offset fields 
   that indicate how many bytes to skip in the TCP stream in order to 
   find the next iSCSI PDU header. 
[end quote]

[quote]

   The marker interval and the initial marker-less interval are counted 
   in terms of the bytes placed in the TCP stream data by iSCSI. 
[end quote]

>> From this text, it is not clear ... whether each marker specifies how many bytes to skip from its position in the stream. It also isn't entirely clear where the count of bytes to skip starts (which is related to the first). 

Again the two markers don't matter. Thus,

2. The count is how many TCP stream bytes to skip, forget about the markers. The definition of "TCP Stream" needs a stretch, but between the first and third sections quoted above, I think it is "TCP Stream := every byte placed by iSCSI in the TCP stream except for the markers themselves and any bytes that TCP counts but are not originated by iSCSI".

I had to think a few times about "bytes that TCP counts but are not originated by iSCSI", and I can't think of any strange cases that leave ambiguity in this definition, but can anyone else? 

On the other hand if we were to add ""The count of bytes begins with the first byte after the Marker", I think there is a possibility for confusion unless you again declare "count of bytes" means TCP Stream (as defined).

I'm probably too close to this now to render an objective opinion on whether ambiguity exists, but I think an example will help, and Pat's is as good as any to resolve this particular (possible) ambiguity (in her example, I believe both marker copies contain zero).

Onto a very related issue: Our technical team just got back from the UNH plugfest and were unable to perform more testing on our marker implementation because nobody else at UNH had implemented markers yet. We would be very interested in hearing from anyone who would like to test against us. Please contact me as a starting point. Thanks!

Aloha

Mike Smith
CTO, iReady
msmith@iready.com


----- Original Message ----- 
From: pat_thaler@agilent.com 
To: ips@ece.cmu.edu 
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 4:57 PM
Subject: Markers


I was reading the text of Appendix A and noticed an ambiguity. 

The text says: 
The Marker indicates the offset to the next iSCSI PDU header. The 
   Marker is eight bytes in length and contains two 32-bit offset fields 
   that indicate how many bytes to skip in the TCP stream in order to 
   find the next iSCSI PDU header. The marker uses two copies of the 
   pointer so that a marker that spans a TCP packet boundary should 
   leave at least one valid copy in one of the packets. 

>From this text, it is not clear whether the two "copies" of the marker are identical copies or whether each marker specifies how many bytes to skip from its position in the stream. It also isn't entirely clear where the count of bytes to skip starts (which is related to the first). 

For example, if a PDU starts right after a marker: 

      Next-iSCSI-PDU-start pointer - copy #1 
      Next-iSCSI-PDU-start pointer - copy #2 
      PDU header start 

Do Copy #1 and Copy #2 both contain 0x00000000, or does copy #1 contain 0x00000004 because the packet starts 4 bytes after copy 1 while copy #2 contains 0x00000000

because the packet starts 0 bytes after copy 2? 

Since "copy" implies they are the same, I think they should both contain 0x00000000. 

This could be clarified by adding, "The count of bytes begins with the first byte after the Marker." One could also include the example above.

Regards, 
Pat 


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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I helped write our hardware specification on this 
issue and going over the specification again just now, I realized that I 
referenced the Internet draft for the definitive description of marker 
insertion. So, I certainly have an interest in getting 
this&nbsp;right.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>&gt;&gt; From this text, it is not clear whether 
the two "copies" of the marker are identical copies </FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Pat, you are right, you need to look beyond the 
text that you quoted to get clarity. Some ambiguity is resolved when you realize 
that markers "don't count". </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>&nbsp;[quote]</FONT>
<DIV><BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp; The Marker scheme uses payload 
byte stream counting that includes <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; every byte placed by iSCSI 
in the TCP stream except for the markers <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; themselves. It also 
excludes any bytes that TCP counts but are not <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; originated by 
iSCSI.<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>[end quote]</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Thus,</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>1. Since "counting ... includes&nbsp;every byte ... 
except for the markers&nbsp;themselves," I believe the markers are both 
identical (in particular, the count in the two markers is the same, since we 
don't count the marker bytes).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>[quote]<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; Marker is eight bytes in 
length and contains two 32-bit offset fields <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; that indicate how 
many bytes to skip in the TCP stream in order to <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; find the next 
iSCSI PDU header. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>[end quote]</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>[quote]<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; The marker interval and 
the initial marker-less interval are counted <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; in terms of the 
bytes placed in the TCP stream data by iSCSI. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>[end quote]</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>&gt;&gt; From this text, it is not clear ... 
whether each marker specifies how many bytes to skip from its position in the 
stream. It also isn't entirely clear where the count of bytes to skip starts 
(which is related to the first). </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Again the two markers don't matter. 
Thus,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>2. The count is how many TCP stream bytes to skip, 
forget about the markers. The definition of "TCP Stream" needs a stretch, but 
between the first and third sections quoted above, I think it is "TCP Stream := 
every byte placed by iSCSI in the TCP stream except for the 
markers&nbsp;themselves and any bytes that TCP counts but are 
not&nbsp;originated by iSCSI".</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I had to think a few times about "bytes that TCP 
counts but are not&nbsp;originated by iSCSI", and I can't think of any strange 
cases that leave ambiguity in this definition, but can anyone else? 
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>On the other hand if we were to add ""The count of 
bytes begins with the first byte after the Marker", I think there is a 
possibility for confusion unless you again declare "count of bytes" means TCP 
Stream (as defined).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I'm probably too close to this now to render an 
objective opinion on whether ambiguity exists, but I think an example will help, 
and Pat's is as good as any to resolve this particular (possible) ambiguity (in 
her example, I believe both marker&nbsp;copies contain zero).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Onto a very related issue: Our technical team just 
got back from the UNH plugfest and were unable to perform more testing 
on&nbsp;our marker implementation&nbsp;because nobody else&nbsp;at UNH had 
implemented markers yet. We would be very interested in hearing from anyone who 
would like to test against us. Please contact me as a starting point. 
Thanks!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Aloha</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Mike Smith</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>CTO, iReady</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><A 
href="mailto:msmith@iready.com">msmith@iready.com</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- 
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A 
title=pat_thaler@agilent.com 
href="mailto:pat_thaler@agilent.com">pat_thaler@agilent.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=ips@ece.cmu.edu 
href="mailto:ips@ece.cmu.edu">ips@ece.cmu.edu</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, August 06, 2002 4:57 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Markers</DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><BR><FONT size=2></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2>I was reading the text of Appendix A and noticed an 
ambiguity. </FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2>The text says: <BR>The Marker indicates the offset to 
the next iSCSI PDU header. The <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; Marker is eight bytes in length 
and contains two 32-bit offset fields <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; that indicate how many 
bytes to skip in the TCP stream in order to <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; find the next iSCSI 
PDU header. The marker uses two copies of the <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; pointer so that a 
marker that spans a TCP packet boundary should <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; leave at least 
one valid copy in one of the packets. </FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2>From this text, it is not clear whether the two 
"copies" of the marker are identical copies or whether each marker specifies how 
many bytes to skip from its position in the stream. It also isn't entirely clear 
where the count of bytes to skip starts (which is related to the first). 
</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2>For example, if a PDU starts right after a marker: 
</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Next-iSCSI-PDU-start 
pointer - copy #1 <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Next-iSCSI-PDU-start 
pointer - copy #2 <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; PDU header start 
</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2>Do Copy #1 and Copy #2 both contain 0x00000000, or 
does copy #1 contain 0x00000004 because the packet starts 4 bytes after copy 1 
while copy #2 contains 0x00000000</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2>because the packet starts 0 bytes after copy 2? 
</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2>Since "copy" implies they are the same, I think they 
should both contain 0x00000000. </FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2>This could be clarified by adding, "The count of 
bytes begins with the first byte after the Marker." One could also include the 
example above.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2>Regards, <BR>Pat </FONT></P></BODY></HTML>

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From: Shahram Davari <Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com>
To: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: iSCSI question
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 07:17:06 -0700 
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Hi,

I have a question regarding the hierarchy of error recovery.
Section 6.13 mentions the hierarchy as:

2: Connection recovery
1: Digest failure recovery
0: Session recovery

And it states that the higher levels are a superset of the
lower levels and that the level of complexity increases from 0->1->2.

Couple of questions:

1) How is digest failure recovery done? by retransmission of PDUs?
2) Why is the connection recovery a superset of session recovery
and more complex?
3) It seems to me the order should be:

2: Session recovery
1: Connection recovery
0: Digest failure recovery


I appreciate any insight.

Thanks,
-Shahram


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Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 19:16:42 -0700
From: "Michael J. S. Smith (PacBell)" <smithmjs@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Markers
To: pat_thaler@agilent.com, ips@ece.cmu.edu
Cc: "Michael J. S. Smith (iReady)" <msmith@iready.com>
Reply-to: "Michael J. S. Smith (PacBell)" <msmith@iready.com>
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MarkersI helped write our hardware specification on this issue and going over the specification again just now, I realized that I referenced the Internet draft for the definitive description of marker insertion. So, I certainly have an interest in getting this right.

>> From this text, it is not clear whether the two "copies" of the marker are identical copies 

Pat, you are right, you need to look beyond the text that you quoted to get clarity. Some ambiguity is resolved when you realize that markers "don't count". 

 [quote]

   The Marker scheme uses payload byte stream counting that includes 
   every byte placed by iSCSI in the TCP stream except for the markers 
   themselves. It also excludes any bytes that TCP counts but are not 
   originated by iSCSI.
    
[end quote]

Thus,

1. Since "counting ... includes every byte ... except for the markers themselves," I believe the markers are both identical (in particular, the count in the two markers is the same, since we don't count the marker bytes).

[quote]
   Marker is eight bytes in length and contains two 32-bit offset fields 
   that indicate how many bytes to skip in the TCP stream in order to 
   find the next iSCSI PDU header. 
[end quote]

[quote]

   The marker interval and the initial marker-less interval are counted 
   in terms of the bytes placed in the TCP stream data by iSCSI. 
[end quote]

>> From this text, it is not clear ... whether each marker specifies how many bytes to skip from its position in the stream. It also isn't entirely clear where the count of bytes to skip starts (which is related to the first). 

Again the two markers don't matter. Thus,

2. The count is how many TCP stream bytes to skip, forget about the markers. The definition of "TCP Stream" needs a stretch, but between the first and third sections quoted above, I think it is "TCP Stream := every byte placed by iSCSI in the TCP stream except for the markers themselves and any bytes that TCP counts but are not originated by iSCSI".

I had to think a few times about "bytes that TCP counts but are not originated by iSCSI", and I can't think of any strange cases that leave ambiguity in this definition, but can anyone else? 

On the other hand if we were to add ""The count of bytes begins with the first byte after the Marker", I think there is a possibility for confusion unless you again declare "count of bytes" means TCP Stream (as defined).

I'm probably too close to this now to render an objective opinion on whether ambiguity exists, but I think an example will help, and Pat's is as good as any to resolve this particular (possible) ambiguity (in her example, I believe both marker copies contain zero).

Onto a very related issue: Our technical team just got back from the UNH plugfest and were unable to perform more testing on our marker implementation because nobody else at UNH had implemented markers yet. We would be very interested in hearing from anyone who would like to test against us. Please contact me as a starting point. Thanks!

Aloha

Mike Smith
CTO, iReady
msmith@iready.com


----- Original Message ----- 
From: pat_thaler@agilent.com 
To: ips@ece.cmu.edu 
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 4:57 PM
Subject: Markers


I was reading the text of Appendix A and noticed an ambiguity. 

The text says: 
The Marker indicates the offset to the next iSCSI PDU header. The 
   Marker is eight bytes in length and contains two 32-bit offset fields 
   that indicate how many bytes to skip in the TCP stream in order to 
   find the next iSCSI PDU header. The marker uses two copies of the 
   pointer so that a marker that spans a TCP packet boundary should 
   leave at least one valid copy in one of the packets. 

>From this text, it is not clear whether the two "copies" of the marker are identical copies or whether each marker specifies how many bytes to skip from its position in the stream. It also isn't entirely clear where the count of bytes to skip starts (which is related to the first). 

For example, if a PDU starts right after a marker: 

      Next-iSCSI-PDU-start pointer - copy #1 
      Next-iSCSI-PDU-start pointer - copy #2 
      PDU header start 

Do Copy #1 and Copy #2 both contain 0x00000000, or does copy #1 contain 0x00000004 because the packet starts 4 bytes after copy 1 while copy #2 contains 0x00000000

because the packet starts 0 bytes after copy 2? 

Since "copy" implies they are the same, I think they should both contain 0x00000000. 

This could be clarified by adding, "The count of bytes begins with the first byte after the Marker." One could also include the example above.

Regards, 
Pat 


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<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Markers</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 5.50.4522.1800" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I helped write our hardware specification on this 
issue and going over the specification again just now, I realized that I 
referenced the Internet draft for the definitive description of marker 
insertion. So, I certainly have an interest in getting 
this&nbsp;right.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>&gt;&gt; From this text, it is not clear whether 
the two "copies" of the marker are identical copies </FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Pat, you are right, you need to look beyond the 
text that you quoted to get clarity. Some ambiguity is resolved when you realize 
that markers "don't count". </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>&nbsp;[quote]</FONT>
<DIV><BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp; The Marker scheme uses payload 
byte stream counting that includes <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; every byte placed by iSCSI 
in the TCP stream except for the markers <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; themselves. It also 
excludes any bytes that TCP counts but are not <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; originated by 
iSCSI.<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>[end quote]</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Thus,</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>1. Since "counting ... includes&nbsp;every byte ... 
except for the markers&nbsp;themselves," I believe the markers are both 
identical (in particular, the count in the two markers is the same, since we 
don't count the marker bytes).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>[quote]<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; Marker is eight bytes in 
length and contains two 32-bit offset fields <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; that indicate how 
many bytes to skip in the TCP stream in order to <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; find the next 
iSCSI PDU header. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>[end quote]</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>[quote]<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; The marker interval and 
the initial marker-less interval are counted <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; in terms of the 
bytes placed in the TCP stream data by iSCSI. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>[end quote]</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>&gt;&gt; From this text, it is not clear ... 
whether each marker specifies how many bytes to skip from its position in the 
stream. It also isn't entirely clear where the count of bytes to skip starts 
(which is related to the first). </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Again the two markers don't matter. 
Thus,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>2. The count is how many TCP stream bytes to skip, 
forget about the markers. The definition of "TCP Stream" needs a stretch, but 
between the first and third sections quoted above, I think it is "TCP Stream := 
every byte placed by iSCSI in the TCP stream except for the 
markers&nbsp;themselves and any bytes that TCP counts but are 
not&nbsp;originated by iSCSI".</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I had to think a few times about "bytes that TCP 
counts but are not&nbsp;originated by iSCSI", and I can't think of any strange 
cases that leave ambiguity in this definition, but can anyone else? 
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>On the other hand if we were to add ""The count of 
bytes begins with the first byte after the Marker", I think there is a 
possibility for confusion unless you again declare "count of bytes" means TCP 
Stream (as defined).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I'm probably too close to this now to render an 
objective opinion on whether ambiguity exists, but I think an example will help, 
and Pat's is as good as any to resolve this particular (possible) ambiguity (in 
her example, I believe both marker&nbsp;copies contain zero).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Onto a very related issue: Our technical team just 
got back from the UNH plugfest and were unable to perform more testing 
on&nbsp;our marker implementation&nbsp;because nobody else&nbsp;at UNH had 
implemented markers yet. We would be very interested in hearing from anyone who 
would like to test against us. Please contact me as a starting point. 
Thanks!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Aloha</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Mike Smith</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>CTO, iReady</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><A 
href="mailto:msmith@iready.com">msmith@iready.com</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- 
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A 
title=pat_thaler@agilent.com 
href="mailto:pat_thaler@agilent.com">pat_thaler@agilent.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=ips@ece.cmu.edu 
href="mailto:ips@ece.cmu.edu">ips@ece.cmu.edu</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, August 06, 2002 4:57 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Markers</DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><BR><FONT size=2></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2>I was reading the text of Appendix A and noticed an 
ambiguity. </FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2>The text says: <BR>The Marker indicates the offset to 
the next iSCSI PDU header. The <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; Marker is eight bytes in length 
and contains two 32-bit offset fields <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; that indicate how many 
bytes to skip in the TCP stream in order to <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; find the next iSCSI 
PDU header. The marker uses two copies of the <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; pointer so that a 
marker that spans a TCP packet boundary should <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp; leave at least 
one valid copy in one of the packets. </FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2>From this text, it is not clear whether the two 
"copies" of the marker are identical copies or whether each marker specifies how 
many bytes to skip from its position in the stream. It also isn't entirely clear 
where the count of bytes to skip starts (which is related to the first). 
</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2>For example, if a PDU starts right after a marker: 
</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Next-iSCSI-PDU-start 
pointer - copy #1 <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Next-iSCSI-PDU-start 
pointer - copy #2 <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; PDU header start 
</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2>Do Copy #1 and Copy #2 both contain 0x00000000, or 
does copy #1 contain 0x00000004 because the packet starts 4 bytes after copy 1 
while copy #2 contains 0x00000000</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2>because the packet starts 0 bytes after copy 2? 
</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2>Since "copy" implies they are the same, I think they 
should both contain 0x00000000. </FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2>This could be clarified by adding, "The count of 
bytes begins with the first byte after the Marker." One could also include the 
example above.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2>Regards, <BR>Pat </FONT></P></BODY></HTML>

--Boundary_(ID_O6SC8V6xR3faY8Eqr1WXxQ)--


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Wed Aug  7 11:50:34 2002
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From: Shahram Davari <Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com>
To: "'Julian Satran'" <Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com>
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu, owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: iSCSI question
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Julian,
 
Thanks. I have read that section but it is not very clear.
 
I also agree that Connection recovery requires everything in command recovery.
But what about session recovery? isn't it a superset of both connection and command recovery?
 
Yours,
-Shahram

-----Original Message-----
From: Julian Satran [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 11:03 AM
To: Shahram Davari
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu; owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: iSCSI question



Sharam, 

You may want to go over the recovery chapter. 
It has detailed answers to all your questions. 
The superset/subset is based on functions you need for the next level. 

Session recovery drops real recovery to SCSI. 
Command recovery recovers from individual command errors without 
changing connection and the highest enable you to switch to a new connection and 
continue commands there. 

2 requires everything in 1. 

Julo 



	Shahram Davari <Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com> 
Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu 


08/07/2002 05:17 PM 


        
        To:        ips@ece.cmu.edu 
        cc:         
        Subject:        iSCSI question 

       


Hi,

I have a question regarding the hierarchy of error recovery.
Section 6.13 mentions the hierarchy as:

2: Connection recovery
1: Digest failure recovery
0: Session recovery

And it states that the higher levels are a superset of the
lower levels and that the level of complexity increases from 0->1->2.

Couple of questions:

1) How is digest failure recovery done? by retransmission of PDUs?
2) Why is the connection recovery a superset of session recovery
and more complex?
3) It seems to me the order should be:

2: Session recovery
1: Connection recovery
0: Digest failure recovery


I appreciate any insight.

Thanks,
-Shahram





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<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=451260615-07082002>Julian,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=451260615-07082002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=451260615-07082002>Thanks. I have read that section but it is not very 
clear.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=451260615-07082002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=451260615-07082002>I also 
agree that Connection recovery requires everything in command 
recovery.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=451260615-07082002>But 
what about session recovery? isn't it a superset of both connection and command 
recovery?</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=451260615-07082002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=451260615-07082002>Yours,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=451260615-07082002>-Shahram</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE 
style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
  <DIV align=left class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr><FONT face=Tahoma 
  size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Julian Satran 
  [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, August 07, 2002 
  11:03 AM<BR><B>To:</B> Shahram Davari<BR><B>Cc:</B> ips@ece.cmu.edu; 
  owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: iSCSI 
  question<BR><BR></DIV></FONT><BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>Sharam,</FONT> 
  <BR><BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>You may want to go over the recovery 
  chapter.</FONT> <BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>It has detailed answers to 
  all your questions.</FONT> <BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>The 
  superset/subset is based on functions you need for the next level.</FONT> 
  <BR><BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>Session recovery drops real recovery to 
  SCSI.</FONT> <BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>Command recovery recovers from 
  individual command errors without </FONT><BR><FONT face=sans-serif 
  size=2>changing connection and the highest enable you to switch to a new 
  connection and</FONT> <BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>continue commands 
  there.</FONT> <BR><BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>2 requires everything in 
  1.</FONT> <BR><BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>Julo</FONT> <BR><BR><BR>
  <TABLE width="100%">
    <TBODY>
    <TR vAlign=top>
      <TD>
      <TD><FONT face=sans-serif size=1><B>Shahram Davari 
        &lt;Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com&gt;</B></FONT> <BR><FONT 
        face=sans-serif size=1>Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu</FONT> 
        <P><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>08/07/2002 05:17 PM</FONT> <BR></P>
      <TD><FONT face=Arial size=1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </FONT><BR><FONT 
        face=sans-serif size=1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; To: &nbsp; &nbsp; 
        &nbsp; &nbsp;ips@ece.cmu.edu</FONT> <BR><FONT face=sans-serif 
        size=1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 
        &nbsp;</FONT> <BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 
        &nbsp; Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;iSCSI question</FONT> 
        <BR><BR><FONT face=Arial size=1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 
    &nbsp;</FONT></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR><BR><FONT face="Courier New" 
  size=2>Hi,<BR><BR>I have a question regarding the hierarchy of error 
  recovery.<BR>Section 6.13 mentions the hierarchy as:<BR><BR>2: Connection 
  recovery<BR>1: Digest failure recovery<BR>0: Session recovery<BR><BR>And it 
  states that the higher levels are a superset of the<BR>lower levels and that 
  the level of complexity increases from 0-&gt;1-&gt;2.<BR><BR>Couple of 
  questions:<BR><BR>1) How is digest failure recovery done? by retransmission of 
  PDUs?<BR>2) Why is the connection recovery a superset of session 
  recovery<BR>and more complex?<BR>3) It seems to me the order should 
  be:<BR><BR>2: Session recovery<BR>1: Connection recovery<BR>0: Digest failure 
  recovery<BR><BR><BR>I appreciate any 
  insight.<BR><BR>Thanks,<BR>-Shahram<BR></FONT><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------_=_NextPart_001_01C23E24.6E7CC290--


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Wed Aug  7 11:51:22 2002
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To: Shahram Davari <Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com>
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu, owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: RE: iSCSI question
X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.9  November 16, 2001
From: "Julian Satran" <Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com>
Message-ID: <OFED29B65E.8A96196A-ONC2256C0E.00547587@telaviv.ibm.com>
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 18:33:58 +0300
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Session recovery is in fact leaving all recovery to SCSI - it drops 
everything and creates a new session.
As for you comment on the clarity of chapter 5 at this stage it makes 
sense to be either specific
or keep this type of comment out of this context.

Julo




Shahram Davari <Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com>
08/07/2002 06:09 PM

 
        To:     Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL
        cc:     ips@ece.cmu.edu, owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
        Subject:        RE: iSCSI question

 

Julian,
 
Thanks. I have read that section but it is not very clear.
 
I also agree that Connection recovery requires everything in command 
recovery.
But what about session recovery? isn't it a superset of both connection 
and command recovery?
 
Yours,
-Shahram
-----Original Message-----
From: Julian Satran [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 11:03 AM
To: Shahram Davari
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu; owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: iSCSI question


Sharam, 

You may want to go over the recovery chapter. 
It has detailed answers to all your questions. 
The superset/subset is based on functions you need for the next level. 

Session recovery drops real recovery to SCSI. 
Command recovery recovers from individual command errors without 
changing connection and the highest enable you to switch to a new 
connection and 
continue commands there. 

2 requires everything in 1. 

Julo 



Shahram Davari <Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com> 
Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu 
08/07/2002 05:17 PM 
        
        To:        ips@ece.cmu.edu 
        cc:         
        Subject:        iSCSI question 

 


Hi,

I have a question regarding the hierarchy of error recovery.
Section 6.13 mentions the hierarchy as:

2: Connection recovery
1: Digest failure recovery
0: Session recovery

And it states that the higher levels are a superset of the
lower levels and that the level of complexity increases from 0->1->2.

Couple of questions:

1) How is digest failure recovery done? by retransmission of PDUs?
2) Why is the connection recovery a superset of session recovery
and more complex?
3) It seems to me the order should be:

2: Session recovery
1: Connection recovery
0: Digest failure recovery


I appreciate any insight.

Thanks,
-Shahram




--=_alternative 0054AF44C2256C0E_=
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"


<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Session recovery is in fact leaving all recovery to SCSI - it drops everything and creates a new session.</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">As for you comment on the clarity of chapter 5 at this stage it makes sense to be either specific</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">or keep this type of comment out of this context.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Julo</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>Shahram Davari &lt;Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com&gt;</b></font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">08/07/2002 06:09 PM</font>
<br>
<td><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;ips@ece.cmu.edu, owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;RE: iSCSI question</font>
<br>
<br><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font></table>
<br>
<br><font size=2 color=blue face="Arial">Julian,</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 color=blue face="Arial">Thanks. I have read that section but it is not very clear.</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 color=blue face="Arial">I also agree that Connection recovery requires everything in command recovery.</font>
<br><font size=2 color=blue face="Arial">But what about session recovery? isn't it a superset of both connection and command recovery?</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 color=blue face="Arial">Yours,</font>
<br><font size=2 color=blue face="Arial">-Shahram</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Tahoma">-----Original Message-----<b><br>
From:</b> Julian Satran [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]<b><br>
Sent:</b> Wednesday, August 07, 2002 11:03 AM<b><br>
To:</b> Shahram Davari<b><br>
Cc:</b> ips@ece.cmu.edu; owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu<b><br>
Subject:</b> Re: iSCSI question<br>
</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
Sharam,</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
</font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
You may want to go over the recovery chapter.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
It has detailed answers to all your questions.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
The superset/subset is based on functions you need for the next level.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
</font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
Session recovery drops real recovery to SCSI.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
Command recovery recovers from individual command errors without <br>
changing connection and the highest enable you to switch to a new connection and</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
continue commands there.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
</font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
2 requires everything in 1.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
</font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
Julo</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
<br>
</font>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td width=2%>
<td width=63%><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>Shahram Davari &lt;Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com&gt;</b></font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><br>
Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">08/07/2002 05:17 PM</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<td width=33%><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </font><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;ips@ece.cmu.edu</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;iSCSI question</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
</font><font size=1 face="Arial"><br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </font></table>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><br>
</font><font size=2 face="Courier New"><br>
Hi,<br>
<br>
I have a question regarding the hierarchy of error recovery.<br>
Section 6.13 mentions the hierarchy as:<br>
<br>
2: Connection recovery<br>
1: Digest failure recovery<br>
0: Session recovery<br>
<br>
And it states that the higher levels are a superset of the<br>
lower levels and that the level of complexity increases from 0-&gt;1-&gt;2.<br>
<br>
Couple of questions:<br>
<br>
1) How is digest failure recovery done? by retransmission of PDUs?<br>
2) Why is the connection recovery a superset of session recovery<br>
and more complex?<br>
3) It seems to me the order should be:<br>
<br>
2: Session recovery<br>
1: Connection recovery<br>
0: Digest failure recovery<br>
<br>
<br>
I appreciate any insight.<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
-Shahram</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><br>
<br>
</font>
<br>
<br>
--=_alternative 0054AF44C2256C0E_=--


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Wed Aug  7 11:51:23 2002
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To: Shahram Davari <Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com>
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu, owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: Re: iSCSI question
X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.9  November 16, 2001
From: "Julian Satran" <Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com>
Message-ID: <OFFE984146.AD2F2B2A-ONC2256C0E.0051D443@telaviv.ibm.com>
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Sharam,

You may want to go over the recovery chapter.
It has detailed answers to all your questions.
The superset/subset is based on functions you need for the next level.

Session recovery drops real recovery to SCSI.
Command recovery recovers from individual command errors without 
changing connection and the highest enable you to switch to a new 
connection and
continue commands there.

2 requires everything in 1.

Julo




Shahram Davari <Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com>
Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
08/07/2002 05:17 PM

 
        To:     ips@ece.cmu.edu
        cc: 
        Subject:        iSCSI question

 

Hi,

I have a question regarding the hierarchy of error recovery.
Section 6.13 mentions the hierarchy as:

2: Connection recovery
1: Digest failure recovery
0: Session recovery

And it states that the higher levels are a superset of the
lower levels and that the level of complexity increases from 0->1->2.

Couple of questions:

1) How is digest failure recovery done? by retransmission of PDUs?
2) Why is the connection recovery a superset of session recovery
and more complex?
3) It seems to me the order should be:

2: Session recovery
1: Connection recovery
0: Digest failure recovery


I appreciate any insight.

Thanks,
-Shahram



--=_alternative 0052483BC2256C0E_=
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"


<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Sharam,</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">You may want to go over the recovery chapter.</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">It has detailed answers to all your questions.</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">The superset/subset is based on functions you need for the next level.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Session recovery drops real recovery to SCSI.</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Command recovery recovers from individual command errors without </font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">changing connection and the highest enable you to switch to a new connection and</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">continue commands there.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">2 requires everything in 1.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Julo</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>Shahram Davari &lt;Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com&gt;</b></font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu</font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">08/07/2002 05:17 PM</font>
<br>
<td><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;ips@ece.cmu.edu</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;iSCSI question</font>
<br>
<br><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font></table>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">Hi,<br>
<br>
I have a question regarding the hierarchy of error recovery.<br>
Section 6.13 mentions the hierarchy as:<br>
<br>
2: Connection recovery<br>
1: Digest failure recovery<br>
0: Session recovery<br>
<br>
And it states that the higher levels are a superset of the<br>
lower levels and that the level of complexity increases from 0-&gt;1-&gt;2.<br>
<br>
Couple of questions:<br>
<br>
1) How is digest failure recovery done? by retransmission of PDUs?<br>
2) Why is the connection recovery a superset of session recovery<br>
and more complex?<br>
3) It seems to me the order should be:<br>
<br>
2: Session recovery<br>
1: Connection recovery<br>
0: Digest failure recovery<br>
<br>
<br>
I appreciate any insight.<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
-Shahram<br>
</font>
<br>
<br>
--=_alternative 0052483BC2256C0E_=--


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Wed Aug  7 12:28:10 2002
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Message-ID: <3D51455D.2EFA1CB1@splentec.com>
Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 12:05:49 -0400
From: Luben Tuikov <luben@splentec.com>
Organization: Splentec Ltd.
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To: Julian Satran <Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com>
CC: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues
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Julian Satran wrote:
> 
> Luben,
> 
> You are in SCSI territory not iSCSI. This type of demands are for T10 (and I think you are wrong
> even there).

What exactly do you mean?
Do you mind pointing it out?

-- 
Luben


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Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 12:19:10 -0400
From: Luben Tuikov <luben@splentec.com>
Organization: Splentec Ltd.
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To: Julian Satran <Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com>, roweber@acm.org, ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues
References: <OFD8B746D4.A334891F-ONC2256C0C.00677189@telaviv.ibm.com> <3D507B97.99D4FC25@splentec.com>
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Let's disect:

I wrote:
> 
> 
> I'd only note that when status is CHECK CONDITION
> (respoinse = CCT), then residuals SHOULD NOT be set.
> I.e. the target SHOULD NOT look inside the sense data
> and retrieve them (EXTENDED COPY exception).
> This is the responsibility of the ULP at the initiator.

The only problem I see here is that one may wrongly
interpret target/initiator. I meant iSCSI target,
iSCSI initiator, i.e. the transport shouldn't
peek inside the sense data and mess with SCSI.
It SHOULD act as a transport only. 

> As to the future, I cannot imagine a CHECK CONDITION
> status and residuals reported by any other means
> than the already established (inside the sense data).
> So this condition is as strong as MUST, but should
> be left as SHOULD NOT, and probably not mentioned at
> all, as is the current matter.

Well, since reporting residuals with CHECK CONDITION
is already established as the residual being reported
IN the body of the sense data, I cannot imagine
that in the future when status is CHECK CONDITION
then the residuals will be anywhere else BUT in the
sense data.
 
> Also, a transport (iSCSI) shouldn't be influenced by
> another transport (FCP), but only by the unifying layer,
> i.e. SAM-3.

Well?

-- 
Luben


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From: Shahram Davari <Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com>
To: "'Julian Satran'" <Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com>
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu, owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: iSCSI question
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 08:43:55 -0700 
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Julian,
 
To start a new session you need to start new connections and you need to support
the PDU recovery. So how is that a subset of PDU and connection recovery?
 
 
-Shahram
 
(I will explain the detailed clarity issues in another email)

-----Original Message-----
From: Julian Satran [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 11:34 AM
To: Shahram Davari
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu; owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: iSCSI question



Session recovery is in fact leaving all recovery to SCSI - it drops everything and creates a new session. 
As for you comment on the clarity of chapter 5 at this stage it makes sense to be either specific 
or keep this type of comment out of this context. 

Julo 



	Shahram Davari <Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com> 


08/07/2002 06:09 PM 


        
        To:        Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL 
        cc:        ips@ece.cmu.edu, owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu 
        Subject:        RE: iSCSI question 

       


Julian, 
  
Thanks. I have read that section but it is not very clear. 
  
I also agree that Connection recovery requires everything in command recovery. 
But what about session recovery? isn't it a superset of both connection and command recovery? 
  
Yours, 
-Shahram 
-----Original Message-----
From: Julian Satran [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 11:03 AM
To: Shahram Davari
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu; owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: iSCSI question


Sharam, 

You may want to go over the recovery chapter. 
It has detailed answers to all your questions. 
The superset/subset is based on functions you need for the next level. 

Session recovery drops real recovery to SCSI. 
Command recovery recovers from individual command errors without 
changing connection and the highest enable you to switch to a new connection and 
continue commands there. 

2 requires everything in 1. 

Julo 


	Shahram Davari <Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com> 
Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu 


08/07/2002 05:17 PM 

        
       To:        ips@ece.cmu.edu 
       cc:         
       Subject:        iSCSI question 

      



Hi,

I have a question regarding the hierarchy of error recovery.
Section 6.13 mentions the hierarchy as:

2: Connection recovery
1: Digest failure recovery
0: Session recovery

And it states that the higher levels are a superset of the
lower levels and that the level of complexity increases from 0->1->2.

Couple of questions:

1) How is digest failure recovery done? by retransmission of PDUs?
2) Why is the connection recovery a superset of session recovery
and more complex?
3) It seems to me the order should be:

2: Session recovery
1: Connection recovery
0: Digest failure recovery


I appreciate any insight.

Thanks,
-Shahram






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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=US-ASCII">


<META content="MSHTML 5.00.2920.0" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=788564015-07082002>Julian,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=788564015-07082002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=788564015-07082002>To 
start a new session you need to start new connections and you need to 
support</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=788564015-07082002>the 
PDU recovery. So how is that a subset of PDU and connection 
recovery?</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=788564015-07082002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=788564015-07082002>-Shahram</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=788564015-07082002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=788564015-07082002>(<FONT 
color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=788564015-07082002>I will explain 
the detailed clarity issues in another email)</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE 
style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
  <DIV align=left class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr><FONT face=Tahoma 
  size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Julian Satran 
  [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, August 07, 2002 
  11:34 AM<BR><B>To:</B> Shahram Davari<BR><B>Cc:</B> ips@ece.cmu.edu; 
  owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: iSCSI 
  question<BR><BR></DIV></FONT><BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>Session recovery 
  is in fact leaving all recovery to SCSI - it drops everything and creates a 
  new session.</FONT> <BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>As for you comment on the 
  clarity of chapter 5 at this stage it makes sense to be either specific</FONT> 
  <BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>or keep this type of comment out of this 
  context.</FONT> <BR><BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>Julo</FONT> <BR><BR><BR>
  <TABLE width="100%">
    <TBODY>
    <TR vAlign=top>
      <TD>
      <TD><FONT face=sans-serif size=1><B>Shahram Davari 
        &lt;Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com&gt;</B></FONT> 
        <P><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>08/07/2002 06:09 PM</FONT> <BR></P>
      <TD><FONT face=Arial size=1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </FONT><BR><FONT 
        face=sans-serif size=1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; To: &nbsp; &nbsp; 
        &nbsp; &nbsp;Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL</FONT> <BR><FONT 
        face=sans-serif size=1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; 
        &nbsp; &nbsp;ips@ece.cmu.edu, owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu</FONT> <BR><FONT 
        face=sans-serif size=1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subject: &nbsp; 
        &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;RE: iSCSI question</FONT> <BR><BR><FONT face=Arial 
        size=1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</FONT></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR><BR><FONT 
  color=blue face=Arial size=2>Julian,</FONT> <BR><FONT face="Times New Roman" 
  size=3>&nbsp;</FONT> <BR><FONT color=blue face=Arial size=2>Thanks. I have 
  read that section but it is not very clear.</FONT> <BR><FONT 
  face="Times New Roman" size=3>&nbsp;</FONT> <BR><FONT color=blue face=Arial 
  size=2>I also agree that Connection recovery requires everything in command 
  recovery.</FONT> <BR><FONT color=blue face=Arial size=2>But what about session 
  recovery? isn't it a superset of both connection and command recovery?</FONT> 
  <BR><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>&nbsp;</FONT> <BR><FONT color=blue 
  face=Arial size=2>Yours,</FONT> <BR><FONT color=blue face=Arial 
  size=2>-Shahram</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Tahoma size=2>-----Original 
  Message-----<B><BR>From:</B> Julian Satran 
  [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]<B><BR>Sent:</B> Wednesday, August 07, 2002 
  11:03 AM<B><BR>To:</B> Shahram Davari<B><BR>Cc:</B> ips@ece.cmu.edu; 
  owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu<B><BR>Subject:</B> Re: iSCSI 
  question<BR></FONT><BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2><BR>Sharam,</FONT><FONT 
  face="Times New Roman" size=3> <BR></FONT><FONT face=sans-serif size=2><BR>You 
  may want to go over the recovery chapter.</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" 
  size=3> </FONT><FONT face=sans-serif size=2><BR>It has detailed answers to all 
  your questions.</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT><FONT 
  face=sans-serif size=2><BR>The superset/subset is based on functions you need 
  for the next level.</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> 
  <BR></FONT><FONT face=sans-serif size=2><BR>Session recovery drops real 
  recovery to SCSI.</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT><FONT 
  face=sans-serif size=2><BR>Command recovery recovers from individual command 
  errors without <BR>changing connection and the highest enable you to switch to 
  a new connection and</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT><FONT 
  face=sans-serif size=2><BR>continue commands there.</FONT><FONT 
  face="Times New Roman" size=3> <BR></FONT><FONT face=sans-serif size=2><BR>2 
  requires everything in 1.</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> 
  <BR></FONT><FONT face=sans-serif size=2><BR>Julo</FONT><FONT 
  face="Times New Roman" size=3> <BR><BR></FONT>
  <TABLE width="100%">
    <TBODY>
    <TR vAlign=top>
      <TD width="2%">
      <TD width="63%"><FONT face=sans-serif size=1><B>Shahram Davari 
        &lt;Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com&gt;</B></FONT><FONT 
        face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT><FONT face=sans-serif 
        size=1><BR>Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu</FONT><FONT 
        face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT>
        <P><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>08/07/2002 05:17 PM</FONT><FONT 
        face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT></P>
      <TD width="33%"><FONT face=Arial size=1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 
        </FONT><FONT face=sans-serif size=1><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;To: 
        &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;ips@ece.cmu.edu</FONT><FONT 
        face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT><FONT face=sans-serif 
        size=1><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 
        &nbsp;</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT><FONT 
        face=sans-serif size=1><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Subject: &nbsp; 
        &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;iSCSI question</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" 
        size=3> <BR></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=1><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 
        </FONT></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR><FONT face="Times New Roman" 
  size=3><BR></FONT><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><BR>Hi,<BR><BR>I have a 
  question regarding the hierarchy of error recovery.<BR>Section 6.13 mentions 
  the hierarchy as:<BR><BR>2: Connection recovery<BR>1: Digest failure 
  recovery<BR>0: Session recovery<BR><BR>And it states that the higher levels 
  are a superset of the<BR>lower levels and that the level of complexity 
  increases from 0-&gt;1-&gt;2.<BR><BR>Couple of questions:<BR><BR>1) How is 
  digest failure recovery done? by retransmission of PDUs?<BR>2) Why is the 
  connection recovery a superset of session recovery<BR>and more complex?<BR>3) 
  It seems to me the order should be:<BR><BR>2: Session recovery<BR>1: 
  Connection recovery<BR>0: Digest failure recovery<BR><BR><BR>I appreciate any 
  insight.<BR><BR>Thanks,<BR>-Shahram</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" 
  size=3><BR><BR></FONT><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------_=_NextPart_001_01C23E29.3CCD3D60--


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Wed Aug  7 12:58:57 2002
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To: Shahram Davari <Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com>
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu, owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: RE: iSCSI question
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Session recovery means just creating a NEW session and forgetting about 
all old commands.
It is the last resort recovery where everything else fails and as such it 
is the most basic function - that anybody has to have.

Julo




Shahram Davari <Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com>
08/07/2002 06:43 PM

 
        To:     Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL
        cc:     ips@ece.cmu.edu, owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
        Subject:        RE: iSCSI question

 

Julian,
 
To start a new session you need to start new connections and you need to 
support
the PDU recovery. So how is that a subset of PDU and connection recovery?
 
 
-Shahram
 
(I will explain the detailed clarity issues in another email)
-----Original Message-----
From: Julian Satran [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 11:34 AM
To: Shahram Davari
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu; owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: iSCSI question


Session recovery is in fact leaving all recovery to SCSI - it drops 
everything and creates a new session. 
As for you comment on the clarity of chapter 5 at this stage it makes 
sense to be either specific 
or keep this type of comment out of this context. 

Julo 



Shahram Davari <Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com> 
08/07/2002 06:09 PM 
        
        To:        Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL 
        cc:        ips@ece.cmu.edu, owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu 
        Subject:        RE: iSCSI question 

 


Julian, 
  
Thanks. I have read that section but it is not very clear. 
  
I also agree that Connection recovery requires everything in command 
recovery. 
But what about session recovery? isn't it a superset of both connection 
and command recovery? 
  
Yours, 
-Shahram 
-----Original Message-----
From: Julian Satran [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 11:03 AM
To: Shahram Davari
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu; owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: iSCSI question


Sharam, 

You may want to go over the recovery chapter. 
It has detailed answers to all your questions. 
The superset/subset is based on functions you need for the next level. 

Session recovery drops real recovery to SCSI. 
Command recovery recovers from individual command errors without 
changing connection and the highest enable you to switch to a new 
connection and 
continue commands there. 

2 requires everything in 1. 

Julo 


Shahram Davari <Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com> 
Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu 
08/07/2002 05:17 PM 
        
       To:        ips@ece.cmu.edu 
       cc:         
       Subject:        iSCSI question 

 



Hi,

I have a question regarding the hierarchy of error recovery.
Section 6.13 mentions the hierarchy as:

2: Connection recovery
1: Digest failure recovery
0: Session recovery

And it states that the higher levels are a superset of the
lower levels and that the level of complexity increases from 0->1->2.

Couple of questions:

1) How is digest failure recovery done? by retransmission of PDUs?
2) Why is the connection recovery a superset of session recovery
and more complex?
3) It seems to me the order should be:

2: Session recovery
1: Connection recovery
0: Digest failure recovery


I appreciate any insight.

Thanks,
-Shahram





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Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"


<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Session recovery means just creating a NEW session and forgetting about all old commands.</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">It is the last resort recovery where everything else fails and as such it is the most basic function - that anybody has to have.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Julo</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>Shahram Davari &lt;Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com&gt;</b></font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">08/07/2002 06:43 PM</font>
<br>
<td><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;ips@ece.cmu.edu, owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;RE: iSCSI question</font>
<br>
<br><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font></table>
<br>
<br><font size=2 color=blue face="Arial">Julian,</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 color=blue face="Arial">To start a new session you need to start new connections and you need to support</font>
<br><font size=2 color=blue face="Arial">the PDU recovery. So how is that a subset of PDU and connection recovery?</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 color=blue face="Arial">-Shahram</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 color=blue face="Arial">(I will explain the detailed clarity issues in another email)</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Tahoma">-----Original Message-----<b><br>
From:</b> Julian Satran [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]<b><br>
Sent:</b> Wednesday, August 07, 2002 11:34 AM<b><br>
To:</b> Shahram Davari<b><br>
Cc:</b> ips@ece.cmu.edu; owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu<b><br>
Subject:</b> RE: iSCSI question<br>
</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
Session recovery is in fact leaving all recovery to SCSI - it drops everything and creates a new session.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
As for you comment on the clarity of chapter 5 at this stage it makes sense to be either specific</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
or keep this type of comment out of this context.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
</font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
Julo</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
<br>
</font>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td width=2%>
<td width=50%><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>Shahram Davari &lt;Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com&gt;</b></font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">08/07/2002 06:09 PM</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<td width=46%><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </font><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;ips@ece.cmu.edu, owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;RE: iSCSI question</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
</font><font size=1 face="Arial"><br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </font></table>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><br>
</font><font size=2 color=blue face="Arial"><br>
Julian,</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
 &nbsp;</font><font size=2 color=blue face="Arial"><br>
Thanks. I have read that section but it is not very clear.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
 &nbsp;</font><font size=2 color=blue face="Arial"><br>
I also agree that Connection recovery requires everything in command recovery.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 color=blue face="Arial"><br>
But what about session recovery? isn't it a superset of both connection and command recovery?</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
 &nbsp;</font><font size=2 color=blue face="Arial"><br>
Yours,</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 color=blue face="Arial"><br>
-Shahram</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Tahoma"><br>
-----Original Message-----<b><br>
From:</b> Julian Satran [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]<b><br>
Sent:</b> Wednesday, August 07, 2002 11:03 AM<b><br>
To:</b> Shahram Davari<b><br>
Cc:</b> ips@ece.cmu.edu; owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu<b><br>
Subject:</b> Re: iSCSI question</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><br>
</font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
<br>
Sharam,</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
<br>
You may want to go over the recovery chapter.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
It has detailed answers to all your questions.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
The superset/subset is based on functions you need for the next level.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
<br>
Session recovery drops real recovery to SCSI.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
Command recovery recovers from individual command errors without <br>
changing connection and the highest enable you to switch to a new connection and</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
continue commands there.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
<br>
2 requires everything in 1.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
<br>
Julo</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
</font>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td width=2%>
<td width=63%><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>Shahram Davari &lt;Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com&gt;</b></font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><br>
Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">08/07/2002 05:17 PM</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<td width=33%><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </font><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;ips@ece.cmu.edu</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;iSCSI question</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=1 face="Arial"><br>
<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font></table>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><br>
</font><font size=2 face="Courier New"><br>
<br>
Hi,<br>
<br>
I have a question regarding the hierarchy of error recovery.<br>
Section 6.13 mentions the hierarchy as:<br>
<br>
2: Connection recovery<br>
1: Digest failure recovery<br>
0: Session recovery<br>
<br>
And it states that the higher levels are a superset of the<br>
lower levels and that the level of complexity increases from 0-&gt;1-&gt;2.<br>
<br>
Couple of questions:<br>
<br>
1) How is digest failure recovery done? by retransmission of PDUs?<br>
2) Why is the connection recovery a superset of session recovery<br>
and more complex?<br>
3) It seems to me the order should be:<br>
<br>
2: Session recovery<br>
1: Connection recovery<br>
0: Digest failure recovery<br>
<br>
<br>
I appreciate any insight.<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
-Shahram</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><br>
<br>
<br>
</font>
<br>
<br>
--=_alternative 0059BA66C2256C0E_=--


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Wed Aug  7 13:07:09 2002
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To: Julian Satran <Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com>
CC: Shahram Davari <Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com>, ips@ece.cmu.edu,
        owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: iSCSI question
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Julian-

Your comment is accurate, but I just want to make sure that the
readers take "last resort" properly.  From a technical, iSCSI
point of view, it's the last resort.

However, from a practical (implementation/deployment) point of
view, session recovery is not all that drastic.  We have been
shipping iSCSI drivers and targets that do session recovery for
quite a while, and it works just quite well for disks (the OS
SCSI layer handles any retries), and for tape applications that
support re-positioning, which are becoming more common.  We
have spent a significant amount of time testing this both in
our lab and in the field.

<SOAPBOX>
Once tape device and driver vendors support SSC-2, there should be
no need to do more than session recovery, except perhaps for
some performance advantages environments where a lot of connection
recovery needs to take place.  But for most iSCSI environments,
doing more than session recovery is not necessary.
</SOAPBOX>

--
Mark

Julian Satran wrote:
> 
> Session recovery means just creating a NEW session and forgetting about all old commands.
> It is the last resort recovery where everything else fails and as such it is the most basic
> function - that anybody has to have.
> 
> Julo
> 
>   Shahram Davari <Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com>
>                                                          To:        Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL
>   08/07/2002 06:43 PM
>                                                          cc:        ips@ece.cmu.edu,
>                                                  owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
>                                                          Subject:        RE: iSCSI question
> 
> 
> 
> Julian,
> 
> To start a new session you need to start new connections and you need to support
> the PDU recovery. So how is that a subset of PDU and connection recovery?
> 
> 
> -Shahram
> 
> (I will explain the detailed clarity issues in another email)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Julian Satran [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 11:34 AM
> To: Shahram Davari
> Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu; owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
> Subject: RE: iSCSI question
> 
> Session recovery is in fact leaving all recovery to SCSI - it drops everything and creates a new
> session.
> As for you comment on the clarity of chapter 5 at this stage it makes sense to be either specific
> or keep this type of comment out of this context.
> 
> Julo
> 
>    Shahram Davari <Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com>
>                                                            To:        Julian
>    08/07/2002 06:09 PM                              Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL
>                                                            cc:        ips@ece.cmu.edu,
>                                                     owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
>                                                            Subject:        RE: iSCSI question
> 
> 
> 
> Julian,
> 
> Thanks. I have read that section but it is not very clear.
> 
> I also agree that Connection recovery requires everything in command recovery.
> But what about session recovery? isn't it a superset of both connection and command recovery?
> 
> Yours,
> -Shahram
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Julian Satran [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 11:03 AM
> To: Shahram Davari
> Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu; owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
> Subject: Re: iSCSI question
> 
> Sharam,
> 
> You may want to go over the recovery chapter.
> It has detailed answers to all your questions.
> The superset/subset is based on functions you need for the next level.
> 
> Session recovery drops real recovery to SCSI.
> Command recovery recovers from individual command errors without
> changing connection and the highest enable you to switch to a new connection and
> continue commands there.
> 
> 2 requires everything in 1.
> 
> Julo
>    Shahram Davari <Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com>
>    Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu                                      To:        ips@ece.cmu.edu
> 
>    08/07/2002 05:17 PM                                                 cc:
>                                                                        Subject:        iSCSI
>                                                                  question
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I have a question regarding the hierarchy of error recovery.
> Section 6.13 mentions the hierarchy as:
> 
> 2: Connection recovery
> 1: Digest failure recovery
> 0: Session recovery
> 
> And it states that the higher levels are a superset of the
> lower levels and that the level of complexity increases from 0->1->2.
> 
> Couple of questions:
> 
> 1) How is digest failure recovery done? by retransmission of PDUs?
> 2) Why is the connection recovery a superset of session recovery
> and more complex?
> 3) It seems to me the order should be:
> 
> 2: Session recovery
> 1: Connection recovery
> 0: Digest failure recovery
> 
> I appreciate any insight.
> 
> Thanks,
> -Shahram

-- 
Mark A. Bakke
Cisco Systems
mbakke@cisco.com
763.398.1054


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Wed Aug  7 13:15:23 2002
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To: <tonyb@cybernetics.com>
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu, owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
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Subject: Re: Unsolicited data PDU retry
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Tony,

Not all the recovery details are made explicit in text.
The code is a bit more complete but it is also not exhaustive.
It is meant to model recovery for interoperability.

As for the data our assumption has been that target will drop data for 
non-instantiated tasks (not a known ITT).
As for duplicates ignoring duplicates is implied by the window rules in 2.

Julo




"Tony Battersby" <tonyb@cybernetics.com>
Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
08/06/2002 09:22 PM
Please respond to tonyb

 
        To:     <ips@ece.cmu.edu>
        cc: 
        Subject:        Unsolicited data PDU retry

 

In section 5.2.1 Usage of Retry (draft 15), it is specified that 
initiators
can resend commands that have not been acknowledged for a timeout period.
Does this retry include re-sending unsolicited data PDU's?  The target is
supposed to ignore non-immediate commands with duplicate CmdSN's or 
CmdSN's
outside the expected range, which takes care of immediate data, but I 
don't
see anywhere where it is specified that the target should ignore duplicate
or unexpected unsolicited data PDUs.  Or, is the target supposed to hold 
on
to unsolicited data PDU's for a command that it does not know about (e.g.
because the command PDU was discarded due to a digest error) and then 
later
re-associate the unsolicited data PDU's with the correct command when the
command PDU is re-sent by the initiator?

The last paragraph of section 2.4.2.2 gives some rules for the ordering of
unsolicited data for different commands, which may also be related.

Thanks,
Anthony J. Battersby
Cybernetics



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<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Tony,</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Not all the recovery details are made explicit in text.</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">The code is a bit more complete but it is also not exhaustive.</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">It is meant to model recovery for interoperability.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">As for the data our assumption has been that target will drop data for non-instantiated tasks (not a known ITT).</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">As for duplicates ignoring duplicates is implied by the window rules in 2.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Julo</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>&quot;Tony Battersby&quot; &lt;tonyb@cybernetics.com&gt;</b></font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu</font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">08/06/2002 09:22 PM</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Please respond to tonyb</font>
<br>
<td><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&lt;ips@ece.cmu.edu&gt;</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Unsolicited data PDU retry</font>
<br>
<br><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font></table>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">In section 5.2.1 Usage of Retry (draft 15), it is specified that initiators<br>
can resend commands that have not been acknowledged for a timeout period.<br>
Does this retry include re-sending unsolicited data PDU's? &nbsp;The target is<br>
supposed to ignore non-immediate commands with duplicate CmdSN's or CmdSN's<br>
outside the expected range, which takes care of immediate data, but I don't<br>
see anywhere where it is specified that the target should ignore duplicate<br>
or unexpected unsolicited data PDUs. &nbsp;Or, is the target supposed to hold on<br>
to unsolicited data PDU's for a command that it does not know about (e.g.<br>
because the command PDU was discarded due to a digest error) and then later<br>
re-associate the unsolicited data PDU's with the correct command when the<br>
command PDU is re-sent by the initiator?<br>
<br>
The last paragraph of section 2.4.2.2 gives some rules for the ordering of<br>
unsolicited data for different commands, which may also be related.<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
Anthony J. Battersby<br>
Cybernetics<br>
</font>
<br>
<br>
--=_alternative 005CE00FC2256C0E_=--


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Wed Aug  7 14:37:49 2002
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Reply-To: <tonyb@cybernetics.com>
From: "Tony Battersby" <tonyb@cybernetics.com>
To: <ips@ece.cmu.edu>
Subject: StatSN wraparound; 2 typos
Date:  Wed, 7 Aug 2002 13:57:06 -0400
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According to 2.2.2.2 (draft 15), the status sequence number space is 32-bit
unsigned integers and the arithmetic operations are the regular mod(2**32)
arithmetic.  Why is StatSN not specified to use serial number arithmetic
(like CmdSN) to handle wrap-around?

For example, I am working on a target implementation that keeps the
information for response PDUs around until they are acknowledged by
ExpStatSN from the initiator.  If the target sends two response PDUs with
StatSNs equal to 2**32-1 and 0, and the initiator's next PDU has ExpStatSN
equal to 1, then the target should consider both response PDUs acknowledged.
Clearly, this will not happen with "regular" unsigned integer comparisons,
since 2**32-1 > 1.  Perhaps it should be made explicit that comparisons on
StatSN and ExpStatSN should use serial number arithmetic, which would handle
the wrap-around.

I have also found two typos in draft 15:

Section 11.12 MaxRecvDataSegmentLength
Last sentence "... if immediate data where sent" change "where" to "were".

Section B.3 R2TSN DataSN use Examples
Bidirectional DataSN Example "... in the alter case" change "alter" to
"latter".

Thanks,
Anthony J. Battersby
Cybernetics




From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Wed Aug  7 14:38:13 2002
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From: Robert Snively <rsnively@Brocade.COM>
To: Chong Peng <ChongPeng@MaXXan.com>, ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: questions about fcip
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 11:03:59 -0700 
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chong Peng [mailto:ChongPeng@MaXXan.com]
> Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 4:02 PM
> To: ips@ece.cmu.edu
> Subject: questions about fcip
> 
> 
> FCIP gurus:
> 
> The FCIP protocol allows one FCIP link have multiple TCP 
> connection. I have two questions about this:
> 
> 1. Why would a FCIP link need multiple TCP connections? 

	This allows implementations to avoid head of queue
	blocking of high priority transmissions, including
	the control functions.  Examples include allowing separation
	of class F (control services), class 2, and class 3
	Fibre Channel data transfer services.  Not all devices
	may choose to use multiple TCP connections.

> 2. If there are multiple TCP connections in a FCIP link, 
> which entity is responsible for distributing  traffic among them.

	This is defined in the FC-BB-2 document managed
	by the T11 committee.  Basically, the responsibility 
	for implementing a device is divided between Fibre
	Channel activities (implemented by the FC Entity) and
	FCIP activities (implemented by the FCIP Entity).  The
	FCIP Entity provides the multiple TCP connections and
	the FC Entity chooses which ones receive which types
	of data.  It also chooses how many are required for
	a particular link and establishes only that number.

	Hope that is some help.

Robert Snively
Brocade Communications Systems, Inc.
1745 Technology Drive
San Jose, CA  95110
E-Mail:         rsnively@brocade.com 
Phone:          (408) 487-8135
Fax:            (408) 392-6655
 


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Wed Aug  7 14:39:20 2002
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From: "Mallikarjun C." <cbm@rose.hp.com>
To: <tonyb@cybernetics.com>, "Julian Satran" <Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com>
Cc: <ips@ece.cmu.edu>
References: <OF6E8130DF.FDB42DAE-ONC2256C0E.005C7177@telaviv.ibm.com>
Subject: Re: Unsolicited data PDU retry
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Tony,

In addition to what Julian said, let me add one more comment.

Initiator is not expected to initiate any Data-Out recovery on its own -
without being requested so via a recovery R2T by the target.  The unsolicited
data PDU retry is not advised.  This follows from the design goal (e)
in section 5.1.2 (top of page 80 in rev15) - only one side drives error
recovery for a given class of PDUs, and target does it for Data-Out.

Hope that clarifies.
--
Mallikarjun

Mallikarjun Chadalapaka
Networked Storage Architecture
Network Storage Solutions
Hewlett-Packard MS 5668 
Roseville CA 95747
cbm@rose.hp.com

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Julian Satran" <Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com>
To: <tonyb@cybernetics.com>
Cc: <ips@ece.cmu.edu>; <owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 9:56 AM
Subject: Re: Unsolicited data PDU retry


> Tony,
> 
> Not all the recovery details are made explicit in text.
> The code is a bit more complete but it is also not exhaustive.
> It is meant to model recovery for interoperability.
> 
> As for the data our assumption has been that target will drop data for 
> non-instantiated tasks (not a known ITT).
> As for duplicates ignoring duplicates is implied by the window rules in 2.
> 
> Julo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Tony Battersby" <tonyb@cybernetics.com>
> Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
> 08/06/2002 09:22 PM
> Please respond to tonyb
> 
>  
>         To:     <ips@ece.cmu.edu>
>         cc: 
>         Subject:        Unsolicited data PDU retry
> 
>  
> 
> In section 5.2.1 Usage of Retry (draft 15), it is specified that 
> initiators
> can resend commands that have not been acknowledged for a timeout period.
> Does this retry include re-sending unsolicited data PDU's?  The target is
> supposed to ignore non-immediate commands with duplicate CmdSN's or 
> CmdSN's
> outside the expected range, which takes care of immediate data, but I 
> don't
> see anywhere where it is specified that the target should ignore duplicate
> or unexpected unsolicited data PDUs.  Or, is the target supposed to hold 
> on
> to unsolicited data PDU's for a command that it does not know about (e.g.
> because the command PDU was discarded due to a digest error) and then 
> later
> re-associate the unsolicited data PDU's with the correct command when the
> command PDU is re-sent by the initiator?
> 
> The last paragraph of section 2.4.2.2 gives some rules for the ordering of
> unsolicited data for different commands, which may also be related.
> 
> Thanks,
> Anthony J. Battersby
> Cybernetics
> 
> 
> 



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From: "Elizabeth G. Rodriguez" <Elizabeth.G.Rodriguez@123mail.net>
To: <ips@ece.cmu.edu>
Subject: FC Mgmt MIB WG Last Call Completed, successfully
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 14:02:47 -0600
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Hello all,

 

The FC Mgmt MIB WG last call has completed, successfully.

There are a few comments against this MIB, but nothing that will cause a
second last call to be needed.

 

Thanks,

 

Elizabeth Rodriguez & David Black

IPS co-chairs


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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>The FC Mgmt MIB WG last call has completed, =
successfully.</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>There are a few comments against this MIB, but =
nothing that
will cause a second last call to be needed.</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Thanks,</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Elizabeth Rodriguez &amp; David =
Black</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>IPS co-chairs</span></font></p>

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From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Wed Aug  7 15:37:11 2002
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From: "Elizabeth G. Rodriguez" <Elizabeth.G.Rodriguez@123mail.net>
To: <ips@ece.cmu.edu>
Subject: iSCSI: iSCSI Draft 15
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 13:57:39 -0600
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Hello all,

 

iSCSI draft 15 is now out.

Thanks to Julian and everyone participating for all their hard work in
producing this draft of the document.

 

WG last call is planned to be announced on this document in the next day
or two.

Before we do that though, David and I would like to ask everyone who has
contributed WG last call comments on the initial last call period to
review the document, and make sure that your comments have been
addressed.

Note:  This does not mean that you comment was accepted, but simply that
there was discussion, if needed, and that it was processed.

This is not intended as a slight to Julian, but simply due to the fact
that there were so many last call comments, we want to make sure that
none slipped through the cracks.

 

If there are any outstanding issues from the first WG last call, please
let David and I know immediately.

 

Thanks,

Elizabeth Rodriguez and David Black,

IPS WG co-chairs


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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Hello all,</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>iSCSI draft 15 is now out.</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Thanks to Julian and everyone participating for all =
their hard
work in producing this draft of the document.</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>WG last call is planned to be announced on this =
document in
the next day or two.</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Before we do that though, David and I would like to =
ask
everyone who has contributed WG last call comments on the initial last =
call
period to review the document, and make sure that your comments have =
been
addressed.</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Note:&nbsp; This does not mean that you comment was
accepted, but simply that there was discussion, if needed, and that it =
was
processed.</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>This is not intended as a slight to Julian, but =
simply due
to the fact that there were so many last call comments, we want to make =
sure
that none slipped through the cracks&#8230;</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>If there are any outstanding issues from the first WG =
last
call, please let David and I know immediately.</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Thanks,</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Elizabeth Rodriguez and David =
Black,</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>IPS WG co-chairs</span></font></p>

</div>

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From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Wed Aug  7 16:28:35 2002
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From: Bill Studenmund <wrstuden@wasabisystems.com>
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To: "Michael J. S. Smith (PacBell)" <msmith@iready.com>
Cc: <pat_thaler@agilent.com>, <ips@ece.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Markers
In-Reply-To: <007001c23db8$78dcac80$6501a8c0@iready.com>
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On Tue, 6 Aug 2002, Michael J. S. Smith (PacBell) wrote:

> MarkersI helped write our hardware specification on this issue and
> going over the specification again just now, I realized that I
> referenced the Internet draft for the definitive description of marker
> insertion. So, I certainly have an interest in getting this right.
>
> >> From this text, it is not clear whether the two "copies" of the marker are identical copies
>
> Pat, you are right, you need to look beyond the text that you quoted
> to get clarity. Some ambiguity is resolved when you realize that
> markers "don't count".
>
>  [quote]
>
>    The Marker scheme uses payload byte stream counting that includes
>    every byte placed by iSCSI in the TCP stream except for the markers
>    themselves. It also excludes any bytes that TCP counts but are not
>    originated by iSCSI.
>
> [end quote]
>
> Thus,
>
> 1. Since "counting ... includes every byte ... except for the markers
> themselves," I believe the markers are both identical (in particular,
> the count in the two markers is the same, since we don't count the
> marker bytes).
>
> [quote]
>    Marker is eight bytes in length and contains two 32-bit offset fields
>    that indicate how many bytes to skip in the TCP stream in order to
>    find the next iSCSI PDU header.
> [end quote]
>
> [quote]
>
>    The marker interval and the initial marker-less interval are counted
>    in terms of the bytes placed in the TCP stream data by iSCSI.
> [end quote]
>
> >> From this text, it is not clear ... whether each marker specifies
> >> how many bytes to skip from its position in the stream. It also isn't
> >> entirely clear where the count of bytes to skip starts (which is
> >> related to the first).
>
> Again the two markers don't matter. Thus,
>
> 2. The count is how many TCP stream bytes to skip, forget about the
> markers. The definition of "TCP Stream" needs a stretch, but between
> the first and third sections quoted above, I think it is "TCP Stream
> := every byte placed by iSCSI in the TCP stream except for the markers
> themselves and any bytes that TCP counts but are not originated by
> iSCSI".
>
> I had to think a few times about "bytes that TCP counts but are not
> originated by iSCSI", and I can't think of any strange cases that
> leave ambiguity in this definition, but can anyone else?

No, I think that's a good definition.

Though do you have examples of "bytes that TCP counts but are not
originated by iSCSI" that aren't markers?

> On the other hand if we were to add ""The count of bytes begins with
> the first byte after the Marker", I think there is a possibility for
> confusion unless you again declare "count of bytes" means TCP Stream
> (as defined).
>
> I'm probably too close to this now to render an objective opinion on
> whether ambiguity exists, but I think an example will help, and Pat's
> is as good as any to resolve this particular (possible) ambiguity (in
> her example, I believe both marker copies contain zero).

I'd like to suggest another, more complicated example that I think would
remove all ambiguity.

Scenario: We have data digests enabled for CRC32C, and markers every 2k of
data (every 512 int32's of data). We are 4 bytes away from our next
marker, and we send 8k worth of zeros.

We would write (I believe, please help check me on this):

four bytes of zero: 00 00 00 00

Marker (we're 8k away from next pdu): 00 00 20 00 00 00 20 00

2k of data: all zeros  (00 00 00 00 .....)

Marker (we're now 6k away):           00 00 18 00 00 00 18 00

2k of data: all zeros  (00 00 00 00 .....)

Marker (now 4k away):                 00 00 10 00 00 00 10 00

2k of data: all zeros  (00 00 00 00 .....)

Marker (now 2k away):                 00 00 08 00 00 00 08 00

2044 bytes of data, all that's left: (00 00 00 00 .....)

The data digest: (in transmission order) 23 46 44 90

Marker (now 0 away):                  00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00

[Next PDU]

Does that look right?

Also, this example can serve as another CRC example.

Take care,

Bill



From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Wed Aug  7 16:36:27 2002
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On Wed, 7 Aug 2002, Mallikarjun C. wrote:

> Tony,
>
> In addition to what Julian said, let me add one more comment.
>
> Initiator is not expected to initiate any Data-Out recovery on its own -
> without being requested so via a recovery R2T by the target.  The unsolicited
> data PDU retry is not advised.  This follows from the design goal (e)
> in section 5.1.2 (top of page 80 in rev15) - only one side drives error
> recovery for a given class of PDUs, and target does it for Data-Out.
>
> Hope that clarifies.

Mallikarjun,

How can that be correct, though?

Maybe I'm mis-understanding something (or thinking you're side-stepping
something you're not), but it seems like that could lead to a mess.

First off, while you're right that the target drives data-out sequencing
with R2Ts, initial data is a little different. The initiator drives that,
subject to negotiation and spec rules. It decides if it wants to use
Immediate Data or unsolicited PDUs (assuming negotiations permit it).

From Julian's comment:

> As for the data our assumption has been that target will drop data for
> non-instantiated tasks (not a known ITT).

If we are retransmitting the command because we think it didn't get
received, then doesn't it seem sensible to conclude that the above text
triggered all of the unsolicited data getting dropped?

Also, at a basic level, regardless of retransmission or not, if the
initiator (re)sends a command PDU that indicates it will use unsolicited
data (F bit not set in command PDU), then doesn't it always have to send
the unsolicited data it just promised??

I could see an initiator choosing to retransmit a command without
immediate and unsolicited data (no data in PDU and F-bit set) and that
normal R2Ts would take over from there. But we don't require it to do so
at present, and if the initiator chooses to indicate the presence of
unsolicited PDUs, then I'd expect it to have to send them.

Take care,

Bill



From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Wed Aug  7 19:42:33 2002
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Subject: Re: iSCSI: Unsolicited data PDU retry
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Bill,

I do not quite follow what "could lead to a mess"....let me address what
I think is your question.

I did not say that target "drives the data-out sequencing" for unsolicited
data, only that the target drives the *error recovery* for all data-out (assuming
it received the command, so has the ITT context).

Let me attempt to rephrase.  A digest error as an example, taken on
one of the unsolicited data PDUs, would have to be recovered by the
target sending a recovery R2T - IOW, target driving the Data-Out PDU
recovery is true even for unsolicited data.

If I understand you correctly, you seem to suggest that retries may carry 
different header flags (F-bit and no-F-bit) - it's illegal.  Take a look at 5.2.1.

I believe the protocol does work correctly even if the initiator retransmits
Data-Out PDUs as it pleases, but that's not the design expectation.  I believe
that's all Tony's question was about.
--
Mallikarjun

Mallikarjun Chadalapaka
Networked Storage Architecture
Network Storage Solutions
Hewlett-Packard MS 5668 
Roseville CA 95747
cbm@rose.hp.com

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bill Studenmund" <wrstuden@wasabisystems.com>
To: "Mallikarjun C." <cbm@rose.hp.com>
Cc: <tonyb@cybernetics.com>; "Julian Satran" <Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com>; <ips@ece.cmu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 1:20 PM
Subject: Re: Unsolicited data PDU retry


> On Wed, 7 Aug 2002, Mallikarjun C. wrote:
> 
> > Tony,
> >
> > In addition to what Julian said, let me add one more comment.
> >
> > Initiator is not expected to initiate any Data-Out recovery on its own -
> > without being requested so via a recovery R2T by the target.  The unsolicited
> > data PDU retry is not advised.  This follows from the design goal (e)
> > in section 5.1.2 (top of page 80 in rev15) - only one side drives error
> > recovery for a given class of PDUs, and target does it for Data-Out.
> >
> > Hope that clarifies.
> 
> Mallikarjun,
> 
> How can that be correct, though?
> 
> Maybe I'm mis-understanding something (or thinking you're side-stepping
> something you're not), but it seems like that could lead to a mess.
> 
> First off, while you're right that the target drives data-out sequencing
> with R2Ts, initial data is a little different. The initiator drives that,
> subject to negotiation and spec rules. It decides if it wants to use
> Immediate Data or unsolicited PDUs (assuming negotiations permit it).
> 
> >From Julian's comment:
> 
> > As for the data our assumption has been that target will drop data for
> > non-instantiated tasks (not a known ITT).
> 
> If we are retransmitting the command because we think it didn't get
> received, then doesn't it seem sensible to conclude that the above text
> triggered all of the unsolicited data getting dropped?
> 
> Also, at a basic level, regardless of retransmission or not, if the
> initiator (re)sends a command PDU that indicates it will use unsolicited
> data (F bit not set in command PDU), then doesn't it always have to send
> the unsolicited data it just promised??
> 
> I could see an initiator choosing to retransmit a command without
> immediate and unsolicited data (no data in PDU and F-bit set) and that
> normal R2Ts would take over from there. But we don't require it to do so
> at present, and if the initiator chooses to indicate the presence of
> unsolicited PDUs, then I'd expect it to have to send them.
> 
> Take care,
> 
> Bill
> 
> 



From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Wed Aug  7 20:56:15 2002
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Subject: Re: iSCSI: Unsolicited data PDU retry
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On Wed, 7 Aug 2002, Mallikarjun C. wrote:

> Bill,
>
> I do not quite follow what "could lead to a mess"....let me address what
> I think is your question.

Ok.

> I did not say that target "drives the data-out sequencing" for unsolicited
> data, only that the target drives the *error recovery* for all data-out (assuming
> it received the command, so has the ITT context).

Ahh...

> Let me attempt to rephrase.  A digest error as an example, taken on
> one of the unsolicited data PDUs, would have to be recovered by the
> target sending a recovery R2T - IOW, target driving the Data-Out PDU
> recovery is true even for unsolicited data.
>
> If I understand you correctly, you seem to suggest that retries may carry
> different header flags (F-bit and no-F-bit) - it's illegal.  Take a look at 5.2.1.

Yes, you are correct that that's what the spec says about the packet.

Well, here's what I thought was the mess. You're suggesting that, when
REtransmitting a command, it is ok to send a command that indicates we're
sending more PDUs (F-bit not set) and to then NOT send them as we're
plugging a command hole. That really strikes me as a protocol violation.
It may not be by the letter of the protocol, but it just seems wrong. I
mean I doubt we be happy with an implementation that did that on the
initial transmission, so why do it on the retransmission?

Think about what's going to happen to this command (assuming I understand
you right). Either we are really plugging a hole or we aren't. If we
aren't, the target will drop the repeat and the unsolicited data on the
floor.

But if we really are plugging a hole, we send this one command and then we
have to wait until the target times out and requests error recovery R2Ts.
i.e. because of that one error, we now have to wait both the initiator and
the target timeout period before things start to get fixed. Also, having a
perceived error state on the initiator's side need the target to perceive
an error to fully recover seems cumbersome.

If that's really considered the best thing to do, well, it will work. It
just seems sub-optimal.

Take care,

Bill



From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Wed Aug  7 22:55:07 2002
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>You're suggesting that, when
> REtransmitting a command, it is ok to send a command that indicates we're
> sending more PDUs (F-bit not set) and to then NOT send them as we're
> plugging a command hole.

Sorry, but I never said it - perhaps I was just unclear.  On the
contrary, 
I am suggesting that the command retry mechanics must be identical.

All I said was that the target is responsible for Data-Out recovery
*when*
it did receive the command earlier.  If the initiator is suspecting that 
the command never got there, it's obligated to repeat the entire command
retry sequence - including the unsolicited data, if any.
-- 
Mallikarjun 


Mallikarjun Chadalapaka
Networked Storage Architecture
Network Storage Solutions
MS 5668	Hewlett-Packard, Roseville.
cbm@rose.hp.com


Bill Studenmund wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 7 Aug 2002, Mallikarjun C. wrote:
> 
> > Bill,
> >
> > I do not quite follow what "could lead to a mess"....let me address what
> > I think is your question.
> 
> Ok.
> 
> > I did not say that target "drives the data-out sequencing" for unsolicited
> > data, only that the target drives the *error recovery* for all data-out (assuming
> > it received the command, so has the ITT context).
> 
> Ahh...
> 
> > Let me attempt to rephrase.  A digest error as an example, taken on
> > one of the unsolicited data PDUs, would have to be recovered by the
> > target sending a recovery R2T - IOW, target driving the Data-Out PDU
> > recovery is true even for unsolicited data.
> >
> > If I understand you correctly, you seem to suggest that retries may carry
> > different header flags (F-bit and no-F-bit) - it's illegal.  Take a look at 5.2.1.
> 
> Yes, you are correct that that's what the spec says about the packet.
> 
> Well, here's what I thought was the mess. You're suggesting that, when
> REtransmitting a command, it is ok to send a command that indicates we're
> sending more PDUs (F-bit not set) and to then NOT send them as we're
> plugging a command hole. That really strikes me as a protocol violation.
> It may not be by the letter of the protocol, but it just seems wrong. I
> mean I doubt we be happy with an implementation that did that on the
> initial transmission, so why do it on the retransmission?
> 
> Think about what's going to happen to this command (assuming I understand
> you right). Either we are really plugging a hole or we aren't. If we
> aren't, the target will drop the repeat and the unsolicited data on the
> floor.
> 
> But if we really are plugging a hole, we send this one command and then we
> have to wait until the target times out and requests error recovery R2Ts.
> i.e. because of that one error, we now have to wait both the initiator and
> the target timeout period before things start to get fixed. Also, having a
> perceived error state on the initiator's side need the target to perceive
> an error to fully recover seems cumbersome.
> 
> If that's really considered the best thing to do, well, it will work. It
> just seems sub-optimal.
> 
> Take care,
> 
> Bill


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Thu Aug  8 11:58:36 2002
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From: Black_David@emc.com
To: luben@splentec.com, ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: iSCSI and FCP
Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 11:22:46 -0400 
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> > Also, a transport (iSCSI) shouldn't be influenced by
> > another transport (FCP), but only by the unifying layer,
> > i.e. SAM-3.
> 
> Well?

Ok as a "first principles" position, I suppose ... but FCP
has a lot of deployment experience, and is known to work.
In addition, bridges to FCP and other SCSI transports are
a reasonable thing to consider.  For example, both of these
contributed to the decision in Yokohama to drop the
BidiInitialR2T key.  So, I think "shouldn't be influenced"
isn't the right approach - there are things to be learned
from FCP's experience, and issues that arise in cross-
transport bridges should not be dismissed out-of-hand.

Thanks,
--David
---------------------------------------------------
David L. Black, Senior Technologist
EMC Corporation, 42 South St., Hopkinton, MA  01748
+1 (508) 249-6449            FAX: +1 (508) 497-8018
black_david@emc.com       Mobile: +1 (978) 394-7754
---------------------------------------------------


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Thu Aug  8 12:01:36 2002
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From: Black_David@emc.com
To: luben@splentec.com, ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: iSCSI: Check Condition and Residuals
Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 11:22:47 -0400 
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I think Julian's point is that the use of sense data
vs. transport support to return residual counts for
CHECK CONDITION is in T10's domain to specify, and
we ought to leave it to T10, but warn implementers
that it would be wrong to assume that iSCSI residuals
will only show up when GOOD status is returned.

Thanks,
--David
---------------------------------------------------
David L. Black, Senior Technologist
EMC Corporation, 42 South St., Hopkinton, MA  01748
+1 (508) 249-6449            FAX: +1 (508) 497-8018
black_david@emc.com       Mobile: +1 (978) 394-7754
---------------------------------------------------

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Luben Tuikov [mailto:luben@splentec.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 12:19 PM
> To: Julian Satran; roweber@acm.org; ips@ece.cmu.edu
> Subject: Re: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues
> 
> 
> Let's disect:
> 
> I wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > I'd only note that when status is CHECK CONDITION
> > (respoinse = CCT), then residuals SHOULD NOT be set.
> > I.e. the target SHOULD NOT look inside the sense data
> > and retrieve them (EXTENDED COPY exception).
> > This is the responsibility of the ULP at the initiator.
> 
> The only problem I see here is that one may wrongly
> interpret target/initiator. I meant iSCSI target,
> iSCSI initiator, i.e. the transport shouldn't
> peek inside the sense data and mess with SCSI.
> It SHOULD act as a transport only. 
> 
> > As to the future, I cannot imagine a CHECK CONDITION
> > status and residuals reported by any other means
> > than the already established (inside the sense data).
> > So this condition is as strong as MUST, but should
> > be left as SHOULD NOT, and probably not mentioned at
> > all, as is the current matter.
> 
> Well, since reporting residuals with CHECK CONDITION
> is already established as the residual being reported
> IN the body of the sense data, I cannot imagine
> that in the future when status is CHECK CONDITION
> then the residuals will be anywhere else BUT in the
> sense data.
>  
> > Also, a transport (iSCSI) shouldn't be influenced by
> > another transport (FCP), but only by the unifying layer,
> > i.e. SAM-3.
> 
> Well?
> 
> -- 
> Luben
> 


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Thu Aug  8 13:51:20 2002
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From: Bill Studenmund <wrstuden@wasabisystems.com>
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To: "Mallikarjun C." <cbm@rose.hp.com>
Cc: <ips@ece.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: iSCSI: Unsolicited data PDU retry
In-Reply-To: <3D51D94E.BB7930CE@rose.hp.com>
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On Wed, 7 Aug 2002, Mallikarjun C. wrote:

> >You're suggesting that, when
> > REtransmitting a command, it is ok to send a command that indicates we're
> > sending more PDUs (F-bit not set) and to then NOT send them as we're
> > plugging a command hole.
>
> Sorry, but I never said it - perhaps I was just unclear.  On the
> contrary,
> I am suggesting that the command retry mechanics must be identical.

Ahhh!!! My appologies. I think we're in violent agreement. :-)

Take care,

Bill



From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Thu Aug  8 14:38:07 2002
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From: Bill Studenmund <wrstuden@wasabisystems.com>
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To: Tony Battersby <tonyb@cybernetics.com>
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Subject: Re: Unsolicited data PDU retry
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On Thu, 8 Aug 2002, Tony Battersby wrote:

> Check out the last paragraph of section 2.2.4.2 of draft 15.  It is about
> ordering rules for unsolicited data.  It seems to me that if the initiator
> does re-send the unsolicited data, and another command with unsolicited data
> is sent in between the first and second send attempts, then it might violate
> the ordering rules in this section.  For example:
>
> Initiator sends command #1
> Target receives command #1 successfully
>
> Initiator sends unsolicited data for command #1
> Target discards the unsolicited data PDU due to a header digest error

For this scenario to happen, it has to be either the last or the only
unsolicited data PDU that bites it. Otherwise there will be a subsequent
unsolicited data PDU that will expose the hole's presence, and then the
target will send an error recovery R2T.

> Initiator sends command #2
> Target receives command #2 successfully
>
> Initiator sends unsolicited data for command #2
> Target receives unsolicited data successfully
>
> (initiator times out)
>
> Initiator re-sends command #1
> Target discards PDU because it is a duplicate

At this point, if the target is feeling savy, it could realize that in
addition to getting a duplicate command it will be getting duplicate data
PDUs, and act accordingly.

> Initiator re-sends unsolicited data for command #1
> Target terminates the session because it received unsolicited data
> out-of-order
>
> I suppose one could also argue that the target could detect the out-of-order
> unsolicited data and terminate the session when it receives the unsolicited
> data for command #2, because it was expecting the unsolicited data for
> command #1 first.  In this case, the problem would be independent of
> re-sending the unsolicited data PDU.

I didn't think that ordering mattered across commands. If it did, then
there would be little way to support multiple commands in progress at
once. :-)

> Maybe I am missing something.  I am not sure why the ordering rules are
> there (implementation simplicity?), but it seems like if the target relied

Yep, implementation simplicity.

> on the ordering, it would make recovery impossible in this situation.  The
> problem could be lessened either by requiring the target to close the
> connection on a header digest error rather than having the option of
> discarding the PDU, or else by eliminating the ordering rule.  Or, one could
> just say, "Too bad; you can't recover from this."

Take care,

Bill



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From: pat_thaler@agilent.com
To: Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com, Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu, owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: iSCSI question
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Shahram,
 
Wen you start a new session, you don't recover any PDUs. All the iSCSI state died with the old session. iSCSI doesn't know the new session had any relationship to the old session.
 
As Julian said, recovery at that point is up to the SCSI layer above iSCSI. It is up to SCSI to retry any commands that it wants to retry. When SCSI retries a command, iSCSI doesn't know it is a retry. To the iSCSI layer it is just like any other SCSI command it receives.
 
Pat
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Shahram Davari [mailto:Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 8:44 AM
To: 'Julian Satran'
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu; owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: iSCSI question


Julian,
 
To start a new session you need to start new connections and you need to support
the PDU recovery. So how is that a subset of PDU and connection recovery?
 
 
-Shahram
 
(I will explain the detailed clarity issues in another email)

-----Original Message-----
From: Julian Satran [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 11:34 AM
To: Shahram Davari
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu; owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: iSCSI question



Session recovery is in fact leaving all recovery to SCSI - it drops everything and creates a new session. 
As for you comment on the clarity of chapter 5 at this stage it makes sense to be either specific 
or keep this type of comment out of this context. 

Julo 



	Shahram Davari <Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com> 


08/07/2002 06:09 PM 


        
        To:        Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL 
        cc:        ips@ece.cmu.edu, owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu 
        Subject:        RE: iSCSI question 

       	


Julian, 
  
Thanks. I have read that section but it is not very clear. 
  
I also agree that Connection recovery requires everything in command recovery. 
But what about session recovery? isn't it a superset of both connection and command recovery? 
  
Yours, 
-Shahram 
-----Original Message-----
From: Julian Satran [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 11:03 AM
To: Shahram Davari
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu; owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: iSCSI question


Sharam, 

You may want to go over the recovery chapter. 
It has detailed answers to all your questions. 
The superset/subset is based on functions you need for the next level. 

Session recovery drops real recovery to SCSI. 
Command recovery recovers from individual command errors without 
changing connection and the highest enable you to switch to a new connection and 
continue commands there. 

2 requires everything in 1. 

Julo 


	Shahram Davari <Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com> 
Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu 


08/07/2002 05:17 PM 

        
       To:        ips@ece.cmu.edu 
       cc:         
       Subject:        iSCSI question 

      	



Hi,

I have a question regarding the hierarchy of error recovery.
Section 6.13 mentions the hierarchy as:

2: Connection recovery
1: Digest failure recovery
0: Session recovery

And it states that the higher levels are a superset of the
lower levels and that the level of complexity increases from 0->1->2.

Couple of questions:

1) How is digest failure recovery done? by retransmission of PDUs?
2) Why is the connection recovery a superset of session recovery
and more complex?
3) It seems to me the order should be:

2: Session recovery
1: Connection recovery
0: Digest failure recovery


I appreciate any insight.

Thanks,
-Shahram






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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=198301318-08082002>Shahram,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=198301318-08082002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=198301318-08082002>Wen you start a new 
session, you don't recover any PDUs. All the iSCSI state died with the old 
session. iSCSI doesn't know the new session had any relationship to the old 
session.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=198301318-08082002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=198301318-08082002>As Julian said, 
recovery at that point is up to the SCSI layer above iSCSI. It is up to SCSI to 
retry any commands that it wants to retry. When SCSI retries a command, iSCSI 
doesn't know it is a retry. To the iSCSI layer it is just like any other SCSI 
command it receives.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=198301318-08082002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=198301318-08082002>Pat</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma 
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Shahram Davari 
[mailto:Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, August 07, 
2002 8:44 AM<BR><B>To:</B> 'Julian Satran'<BR><B>Cc:</B> ips@ece.cmu.edu; 
owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: iSCSI question<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN 
class=788564015-07082002>Julian,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN 
class=788564015-07082002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=788564015-07082002>To 
start a new session you need to start new connections and you need to 
support</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=788564015-07082002>the 
PDU recovery. So how is that a subset of PDU and connection 
recovery?</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN 
class=788564015-07082002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN 
class=788564015-07082002>-Shahram</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN 
class=788564015-07082002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=788564015-07082002>(<FONT 
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=788564015-07082002>I will explain 
the detailed clarity issues in another email)</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE 
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid">
  <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma 
  size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Julian Satran 
  [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, August 07, 2002 
  11:34 AM<BR><B>To:</B> Shahram Davari<BR><B>Cc:</B> ips@ece.cmu.edu; 
  owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: iSCSI 
  question<BR><BR></DIV></FONT><BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>Session recovery 
  is in fact leaving all recovery to SCSI - it drops everything and creates a 
  new session.</FONT> <BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>As for you comment on the 
  clarity of chapter 5 at this stage it makes sense to be either specific</FONT> 
  <BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>or keep this type of comment out of this 
  context.</FONT> <BR><BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>Julo</FONT> <BR><BR><BR>
  <TABLE width="100%">
    <TBODY>
    <TR vAlign=top>
      <TD>
      <TD><FONT face=sans-serif size=1><B>Shahram Davari 
        &lt;Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com&gt;</B></FONT> 
        <P><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>08/07/2002 06:09 PM</FONT> <BR></P>
      <TD><FONT face=Arial size=1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </FONT><BR><FONT 
        face=sans-serif size=1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; To: &nbsp; &nbsp; 
        &nbsp; &nbsp;Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL</FONT> <BR><FONT 
        face=sans-serif size=1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; 
        &nbsp; &nbsp;ips@ece.cmu.edu, owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu</FONT> <BR><FONT 
        face=sans-serif size=1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subject: &nbsp; 
        &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;RE: iSCSI question</FONT> <BR><BR><FONT face=Arial 
        size=1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 
  &nbsp;</FONT></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR><BR><FONT face=Arial color=blue 
  size=2>Julian,</FONT> <BR><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>&nbsp;</FONT> 
  <BR><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=2>Thanks. I have read that section but it 
  is not very clear.</FONT> <BR><FONT face="Times New Roman" 
  size=3>&nbsp;</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=2>I also agree that 
  Connection recovery requires everything in command recovery.</FONT> <BR><FONT 
  face=Arial color=blue size=2>But what about session recovery? isn't it a 
  superset of both connection and command recovery?</FONT> <BR><FONT 
  face="Times New Roman" size=3>&nbsp;</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial color=blue 
  size=2>Yours,</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=2>-Shahram</FONT> 
  <BR><FONT face=Tahoma size=2>-----Original Message-----<B><BR>From:</B> Julian 
  Satran [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]<B><BR>Sent:</B> Wednesday, August 07, 
  2002 11:03 AM<B><BR>To:</B> Shahram Davari<B><BR>Cc:</B> ips@ece.cmu.edu; 
  owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu<B><BR>Subject:</B> Re: iSCSI 
  question<BR></FONT><BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2><BR>Sharam,</FONT><FONT 
  face="Times New Roman" size=3> <BR></FONT><FONT face=sans-serif size=2><BR>You 
  may want to go over the recovery chapter.</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" 
  size=3> </FONT><FONT face=sans-serif size=2><BR>It has detailed answers to all 
  your questions.</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT><FONT 
  face=sans-serif size=2><BR>The superset/subset is based on functions you need 
  for the next level.</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> 
  <BR></FONT><FONT face=sans-serif size=2><BR>Session recovery drops real 
  recovery to SCSI.</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT><FONT 
  face=sans-serif size=2><BR>Command recovery recovers from individual command 
  errors without <BR>changing connection and the highest enable you to switch to 
  a new connection and</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT><FONT 
  face=sans-serif size=2><BR>continue commands there.</FONT><FONT 
  face="Times New Roman" size=3> <BR></FONT><FONT face=sans-serif size=2><BR>2 
  requires everything in 1.</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> 
  <BR></FONT><FONT face=sans-serif size=2><BR>Julo</FONT><FONT 
  face="Times New Roman" size=3> <BR><BR></FONT>
  <TABLE width="100%">
    <TBODY>
    <TR vAlign=top>
      <TD width="2%">
      <TD width="63%"><FONT face=sans-serif size=1><B>Shahram Davari 
        &lt;Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com&gt;</B></FONT><FONT 
        face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT><FONT face=sans-serif 
        size=1><BR>Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu</FONT><FONT 
        face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT>
        <P><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>08/07/2002 05:17 PM</FONT><FONT 
        face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT></P>
      <TD width="33%"><FONT face=Arial size=1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 
        </FONT><FONT face=sans-serif size=1><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;To: 
        &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;ips@ece.cmu.edu</FONT><FONT 
        face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT><FONT face=sans-serif 
        size=1><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 
        &nbsp;</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT><FONT 
        face=sans-serif size=1><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Subject: &nbsp; 
        &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;iSCSI question</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" 
        size=3> <BR></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=1><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 
        </FONT></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR><FONT face="Times New Roman" 
  size=3><BR></FONT><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><BR>Hi,<BR><BR>I have a 
  question regarding the hierarchy of error recovery.<BR>Section 6.13 mentions 
  the hierarchy as:<BR><BR>2: Connection recovery<BR>1: Digest failure 
  recovery<BR>0: Session recovery<BR><BR>And it states that the higher levels 
  are a superset of the<BR>lower levels and that the level of complexity 
  increases from 0-&gt;1-&gt;2.<BR><BR>Couple of questions:<BR><BR>1) How is 
  digest failure recovery done? by retransmission of PDUs?<BR>2) Why is the 
  connection recovery a superset of session recovery<BR>and more complex?<BR>3) 
  It seems to me the order should be:<BR><BR>2: Session recovery<BR>1: 
  Connection recovery<BR>0: Digest failure recovery<BR><BR><BR>I appreciate any 
  insight.<BR><BR>Thanks,<BR>-Shahram</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" 
  size=3><BR><BR></FONT><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From: Shahram Davari <Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com>
To: "'pat_thaler@agilent.com'" <pat_thaler@agilent.com>,
        Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu, owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: iSCSI question
Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 11:27:13 -0700 
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Pat,
 
Thanks. I understand your point. Although terminating a session may be easy, but, starting a new session requires new login, parameter exchange, new connections establishment, authentication, etc. So I wonder how is this any simpler than a simple PDU retransmit?
 
Yours,
-Shahram

-----Original Message-----
From: pat_thaler@agilent.com [mailto:pat_thaler@agilent.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 2:19 PM
To: Shahram Davari; Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu; owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: iSCSI question


Shahram,
 
Wen you start a new session, you don't recover any PDUs. All the iSCSI state died with the old session. iSCSI doesn't know the new session had any relationship to the old session.
 
As Julian said, recovery at that point is up to the SCSI layer above iSCSI. It is up to SCSI to retry any commands that it wants to retry. When SCSI retries a command, iSCSI doesn't know it is a retry. To the iSCSI layer it is just like any other SCSI command it receives.
 
Pat
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Shahram Davari [mailto:Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 8:44 AM
To: 'Julian Satran'
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu; owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: iSCSI question


Julian,
 
To start a new session you need to start new connections and you need to support
the PDU recovery. So how is that a subset of PDU and connection recovery?
 
 
-Shahram
 
(I will explain the detailed clarity issues in another email)

-----Original Message-----
From: Julian Satran [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 11:34 AM
To: Shahram Davari
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu; owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: iSCSI question



Session recovery is in fact leaving all recovery to SCSI - it drops everything and creates a new session. 
As for you comment on the clarity of chapter 5 at this stage it makes sense to be either specific 
or keep this type of comment out of this context. 

Julo 



	Shahram Davari <Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com> 


08/07/2002 06:09 PM 


        
        To:        Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL 
        cc:        ips@ece.cmu.edu, owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu 
        Subject:        RE: iSCSI question 

       	


Julian, 
  
Thanks. I have read that section but it is not very clear. 
  
I also agree that Connection recovery requires everything in command recovery. 
But what about session recovery? isn't it a superset of both connection and command recovery? 
  
Yours, 
-Shahram 
-----Original Message-----
From: Julian Satran [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 11:03 AM
To: Shahram Davari
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu; owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: iSCSI question


Sharam, 

You may want to go over the recovery chapter. 
It has detailed answers to all your questions. 
The superset/subset is based on functions you need for the next level. 

Session recovery drops real recovery to SCSI. 
Command recovery recovers from individual command errors without 
changing connection and the highest enable you to switch to a new connection and 
continue commands there. 

2 requires everything in 1. 

Julo 


	Shahram Davari <Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com> 
Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu 


08/07/2002 05:17 PM 

        
       To:        ips@ece.cmu.edu 
       cc:         
       Subject:        iSCSI question 

      	



Hi,

I have a question regarding the hierarchy of error recovery.
Section 6.13 mentions the hierarchy as:

2: Connection recovery
1: Digest failure recovery
0: Session recovery

And it states that the higher levels are a superset of the
lower levels and that the level of complexity increases from 0->1->2.

Couple of questions:

1) How is digest failure recovery done? by retransmission of PDUs?
2) Why is the connection recovery a superset of session recovery
and more complex?
3) It seems to me the order should be:

2: Session recovery
1: Connection recovery
0: Digest failure recovery


I appreciate any insight.

Thanks,
-Shahram






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<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=854352218-08082002>Pat,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=854352218-08082002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=854352218-08082002>Thanks. I understand your point. Although terminating a 
session&nbsp;may be easy, but, starting a new session requires new login, 
parameter exchange, new connections establishment, authentication, etc. So I 
wonder how is this any simpler than a simple PDU retransmit?</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=854352218-08082002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=854352218-08082002>Yours,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=854352218-08082002>-Shahram</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE 
style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
  <DIV align=left class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr><FONT face=Tahoma 
  size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> pat_thaler@agilent.com 
  [mailto:pat_thaler@agilent.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, August 08, 2002 2:19 
  PM<BR><B>To:</B> Shahram Davari; Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com<BR><B>Cc:</B> 
  ips@ece.cmu.edu; owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: iSCSI 
  question<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
  class=198301318-08082002>Shahram,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
  class=198301318-08082002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=198301318-08082002>Wen you start a 
  new session, you don't recover any PDUs. All the iSCSI state died with the old 
  session. iSCSI doesn't know the new session had any relationship to the old 
  session.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
  class=198301318-08082002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=198301318-08082002>As Julian said, 
  recovery at that point is up to the SCSI layer above iSCSI. It is up to SCSI 
  to retry any commands that it wants to retry. When SCSI retries a command, 
  iSCSI doesn't know it is a retry. To the iSCSI layer it is just like any other 
  SCSI command it receives.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
  class=198301318-08082002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
  class=198301318-08082002>Pat</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV align=left class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr><FONT face=Tahoma 
  size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Shahram Davari 
  [mailto:Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, August 07, 
  2002 8:44 AM<BR><B>To:</B> 'Julian Satran'<BR><B>Cc:</B> ips@ece.cmu.edu; 
  owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: iSCSI 
  question<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
  class=788564015-07082002>Julian,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
  class=788564015-07082002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=788564015-07082002>To 
  start a new session you need to start new connections and you need to 
  support</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=788564015-07082002>the 
  PDU recovery. So how is that a subset of PDU and connection 
  recovery?</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
  class=788564015-07082002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
  class=788564015-07082002>-Shahram</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
  class=788564015-07082002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
  class=788564015-07082002>(<FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
  class=788564015-07082002>I will explain the detailed clarity issues in another 
  email)</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE 
  style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
    <DIV align=left class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr><FONT face=Tahoma 
    size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Julian Satran 
    [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, August 07, 2002 
    11:34 AM<BR><B>To:</B> Shahram Davari<BR><B>Cc:</B> ips@ece.cmu.edu; 
    owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: iSCSI 
    question<BR><BR></DIV></FONT><BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>Session 
    recovery is in fact leaving all recovery to SCSI - it drops everything and 
    creates a new session.</FONT> <BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>As for you 
    comment on the clarity of chapter 5 at this stage it makes sense to be 
    either specific</FONT> <BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>or keep this type of 
    comment out of this context.</FONT> <BR><BR><FONT face=sans-serif 
    size=2>Julo</FONT> <BR><BR><BR>
    <TABLE width="100%">
      <TBODY>
      <TR vAlign=top>
        <TD>
        <TD><FONT face=sans-serif size=1><B>Shahram Davari 
          &lt;Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com&gt;</B></FONT> 
          <P><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>08/07/2002 06:09 PM</FONT> <BR></P>
        <TD><FONT face=Arial size=1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 
          </FONT><BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 
          To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL</FONT> 
          <BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; cc: 
          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;ips@ece.cmu.edu, 
          owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu</FONT> <BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>&nbsp; 
          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;RE: iSCSI 
          question</FONT> <BR><BR><FONT face=Arial size=1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 
          &nbsp;</FONT></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR><BR><FONT color=blue face=Arial 
    size=2>Julian,</FONT> <BR><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>&nbsp;</FONT> 
    <BR><FONT color=blue face=Arial size=2>Thanks. I have read that section but 
    it is not very clear.</FONT> <BR><FONT face="Times New Roman" 
    size=3>&nbsp;</FONT> <BR><FONT color=blue face=Arial size=2>I also agree 
    that Connection recovery requires everything in command recovery.</FONT> 
    <BR><FONT color=blue face=Arial size=2>But what about session recovery? 
    isn't it a superset of both connection and command recovery?</FONT> 
    <BR><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>&nbsp;</FONT> <BR><FONT color=blue 
    face=Arial size=2>Yours,</FONT> <BR><FONT color=blue face=Arial 
    size=2>-Shahram</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Tahoma size=2>-----Original 
    Message-----<B><BR>From:</B> Julian Satran 
    [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]<B><BR>Sent:</B> Wednesday, August 07, 2002 
    11:03 AM<B><BR>To:</B> Shahram Davari<B><BR>Cc:</B> ips@ece.cmu.edu; 
    owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu<B><BR>Subject:</B> Re: iSCSI 
    question<BR></FONT><BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2><BR>Sharam,</FONT><FONT 
    face="Times New Roman" size=3> <BR></FONT><FONT face=sans-serif 
    size=2><BR>You may want to go over the recovery chapter.</FONT><FONT 
    face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT><FONT face=sans-serif size=2><BR>It 
    has detailed answers to all your questions.</FONT><FONT 
    face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT><FONT face=sans-serif size=2><BR>The 
    superset/subset is based on functions you need for the next 
    level.</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> <BR></FONT><FONT 
    face=sans-serif size=2><BR>Session recovery drops real recovery to 
    SCSI.</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT><FONT 
    face=sans-serif size=2><BR>Command recovery recovers from individual command 
    errors without <BR>changing connection and the highest enable you to switch 
    to a new connection and</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> 
    </FONT><FONT face=sans-serif size=2><BR>continue commands there.</FONT><FONT 
    face="Times New Roman" size=3> <BR></FONT><FONT face=sans-serif size=2><BR>2 
    requires everything in 1.</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> 
    <BR></FONT><FONT face=sans-serif size=2><BR>Julo</FONT><FONT 
    face="Times New Roman" size=3> <BR><BR></FONT>
    <TABLE width="100%">
      <TBODY>
      <TR vAlign=top>
        <TD width="2%">
        <TD width="63%"><FONT face=sans-serif size=1><B>Shahram Davari 
          &lt;Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com&gt;</B></FONT><FONT 
          face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT><FONT face=sans-serif 
          size=1><BR>Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu</FONT><FONT 
          face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT>
          <P><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>08/07/2002 05:17 PM</FONT><FONT 
          face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT></P>
        <TD width="33%"><FONT face=Arial size=1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 
          </FONT><FONT face=sans-serif size=1><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;To: 
          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;ips@ece.cmu.edu</FONT><FONT 
          face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT><FONT face=sans-serif 
          size=1><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 
          &nbsp;</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT><FONT 
          face=sans-serif size=1><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Subject: &nbsp; 
          &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;iSCSI question</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" 
          size=3> <BR></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=1><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 
          </FONT></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR><FONT face="Times New Roman" 
    size=3><BR></FONT><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><BR>Hi,<BR><BR>I have a 
    question regarding the hierarchy of error recovery.<BR>Section 6.13 mentions 
    the hierarchy as:<BR><BR>2: Connection recovery<BR>1: Digest failure 
    recovery<BR>0: Session recovery<BR><BR>And it states that the higher levels 
    are a superset of the<BR>lower levels and that the level of complexity 
    increases from 0-&gt;1-&gt;2.<BR><BR>Couple of questions:<BR><BR>1) How is 
    digest failure recovery done? by retransmission of PDUs?<BR>2) Why is the 
    connection recovery a superset of session recovery<BR>and more 
    complex?<BR>3) It seems to me the order should be:<BR><BR>2: Session 
    recovery<BR>1: Connection recovery<BR>0: Digest failure 
    recovery<BR><BR><BR>I appreciate any 
    insight.<BR><BR>Thanks,<BR>-Shahram</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" 
    size=3><BR><BR></FONT><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Thu Aug  8 16:36:55 2002
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From: Bill Studenmund <wrstuden@wasabisystems.com>
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To: Shahram Davari <Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com>
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        <Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com>, <ips@ece.cmu.edu>, <owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu>
Subject: RE: iSCSI question
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On Thu, 8 Aug 2002, Shahram Davari wrote:

> Pat,
>

> Thanks. I understand your point. Although terminating a session may be
> easy, but, starting a new session requires new login, parameter
> exchange, new connections establishment, authentication, etc. So I
> wonder how is this any simpler than a simple PDU retransmit?

It's simpler in terms of the code in both the initiator and target.

That's how it's simpler. :-)

Take care,

Bill



From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Thu Aug  8 16:39:29 2002
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From: Shahram Davari <Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com>
To: "'Bill Studenmund'" <wrstuden@wasabisystems.com>
Cc: "'pat_thaler@agilent.com'" <pat_thaler@agilent.com>,
        Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com, ips@ece.cmu.edu, owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: iSCSI question
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Hi Bill,

Thanks for your reply. Please see my comments below:

1) I doubt that the session re-establishment code is simpler than PDU recovery code.
But think what you are saying is that, you need to have the session recovery anyway, so the PDU recovery is extra code.
2) Even if that is the case, it has nothing to do with the error recovery hierarchy.
The error recovery hierarchy must show what recovery should be tried before the other ones. In other words it has to show how the recovery escalates.
3) I think it should escalate as following: PDU -> Connection -> Session


Yours,
-Shahram  

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bill Studenmund [mailto:wrstuden@wasabisystems.com]
> Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 3:59 PM
> To: Shahram Davari
> Cc: 'pat_thaler@agilent.com'; Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com; 
> ips@ece.cmu.edu;
> owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
> Subject: RE: iSCSI question
> 
> 
> On Thu, 8 Aug 2002, Shahram Davari wrote:
> 
> > Pat,
> >
> 
> > Thanks. I understand your point. Although terminating a 
> session may be
> > easy, but, starting a new session requires new login, parameter
> > exchange, new connections establishment, authentication, etc. So I
> > wonder how is this any simpler than a simple PDU retransmit?
> 
> It's simpler in terms of the code in both the initiator and target.
> 
> That's how it's simpler. :-)
> 
> Take care,
> 
> Bill
> 


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Thu Aug  8 17:01:04 2002
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From: "Amir Shalit" <amir@astutenetworks.com>
To: "Shahram Davari" <Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com>
Cc: <ips@ece.cmu.edu>, <owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu>
Subject: RE: iSCSI question
Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 13:38:51 -0700
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Shahram,

1) Connection reassignment requires more than PDU retransmission to handle
corner cases

2) Error recovery level 1&2 requires more buffering which takes space and
lowers performance. If
   you support error recovery level 1 you might as well support level 2.

Amir
  -----Original Message-----
  From: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu [mailto:owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu]On Behalf Of
Shahram Davari
  Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 11:27 AM
  To: 'pat_thaler@agilent.com'; Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com
  Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu; owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
  Subject: RE: iSCSI question


  Pat,

  Thanks. I understand your point. Although terminating a session may be
easy, but, starting a new session requires new login, parameter exchange,
new connections establishment, authentication, etc. So I wonder how is this
any simpler than a simple PDU retransmit?

  Yours,
  -Shahram
    -----Original Message-----
    From: pat_thaler@agilent.com [mailto:pat_thaler@agilent.com]
    Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 2:19 PM
    To: Shahram Davari; Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com
    Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu; owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
    Subject: RE: iSCSI question


    Shahram,

    Wen you start a new session, you don't recover any PDUs. All the iSCSI
state died with the old session. iSCSI doesn't know the new session had any
relationship to the old session.

    As Julian said, recovery at that point is up to the SCSI layer above
iSCSI. It is up to SCSI to retry any commands that it wants to retry. When
SCSI retries a command, iSCSI doesn't know it is a retry. To the iSCSI layer
it is just like any other SCSI command it receives.

    Pat

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Shahram Davari [mailto:Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com]
    Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 8:44 AM
    To: 'Julian Satran'
    Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu; owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
    Subject: RE: iSCSI question


    Julian,

    To start a new session you need to start new connections and you need to
support
    the PDU recovery. So how is that a subset of PDU and connection
recovery?


    -Shahram

    (I will explain the detailed clarity issues in another email)
      -----Original Message-----
      From: Julian Satran [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]
      Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 11:34 AM
      To: Shahram Davari
      Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu; owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
      Subject: RE: iSCSI question



      Session recovery is in fact leaving all recovery to SCSI - it drops
everything and creates a new session.
      As for you comment on the clarity of chapter 5 at this stage it makes
sense to be either specific
      or keep this type of comment out of this context.

      Julo


           Shahram Davari <Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com>
            08/07/2002 06:09 PM


                    To:        Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL
                    cc:        ips@ece.cmu.edu, owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
                    Subject:        RE: iSCSI question




      Julian,

      Thanks. I have read that section but it is not very clear.

      I also agree that Connection recovery requires everything in command
recovery.
      But what about session recovery? isn't it a superset of both
connection and command recovery?

      Yours,
      -Shahram
      -----Original Message-----
      From: Julian Satran [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]
      Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 11:03 AM
      To: Shahram Davari
      Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu; owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
      Subject: Re: iSCSI question


      Sharam,

      You may want to go over the recovery chapter.
      It has detailed answers to all your questions.
      The superset/subset is based on functions you need for the next level.

      Session recovery drops real recovery to SCSI.
      Command recovery recovers from individual command errors without
      changing connection and the highest enable you to switch to a new
connection and
      continue commands there.

      2 requires everything in 1.

      Julo

           Shahram Davari <Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com>
            Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
            08/07/2002 05:17 PM

                   To:        ips@ece.cmu.edu
                   cc:
                   Subject:        iSCSI question





      Hi,

      I have a question regarding the hierarchy of error recovery.
      Section 6.13 mentions the hierarchy as:

      2: Connection recovery
      1: Digest failure recovery
      0: Session recovery

      And it states that the higher levels are a superset of the
      lower levels and that the level of complexity increases from 0->1->2.

      Couple of questions:

      1) How is digest failure recovery done? by retransmission of PDUs?
      2) Why is the connection recovery a superset of session recovery
      and more complex?
      3) It seems to me the order should be:

      2: Session recovery
      1: Connection recovery
      0: Digest failure recovery


      I appreciate any insight.

      Thanks,
      -Shahram





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<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4807.2300" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D747123120-08082002><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>Shahram,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D747123120-08082002><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D747123120-08082002><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>1)=20
Connection reassignment requires more than PDU retransmission&nbsp;to=20
handle&nbsp;corner cases</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D747123120-08082002><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D747123120-08082002><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>2)&nbsp;Error recovery level 1&amp;2 requires&nbsp;more =
buffering which=20
takes space and lowers performance. If</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D747123120-08082002><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp; you support error recovery level 1 you might as =
well support=20
level 2.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D747123120-08082002><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D747123120-08082002><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =

size=3D2>Amir</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
  size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> =
owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu=20
  [mailto:owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Shahram=20
  Davari<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, August 08, 2002 11:27 =
AM<BR><B>To:</B>=20
  'pat_thaler@agilent.com'; Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com<BR><B>Cc:</B>=20
  ips@ece.cmu.edu; owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: iSCSI=20
  question<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D854352218-08082002>Pat,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D854352218-08082002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D854352218-08082002>Thanks. I understand your point. Although =
terminating=20
  a session&nbsp;may be easy, but, starting a new session requires new =
login,=20
  parameter exchange, new connections establishment, authentication, =
etc. So I=20
  wonder how is this any simpler than a simple PDU=20
  retransmit?</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D854352218-08082002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D854352218-08082002>Yours,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D854352218-08082002>-Shahram</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
    size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> =
pat_thaler@agilent.com=20
    [mailto:pat_thaler@agilent.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, August 08, =
2002=20
    2:19 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Shahram Davari; =
Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com<BR><B>Cc:</B>=20
    ips@ece.cmu.edu; owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: iSCSI=20
    question<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
    class=3D198301318-08082002>Shahram,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
    class=3D198301318-08082002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D198301318-08082002>Wen you start a=20
    new session, you don't recover any PDUs. All the iSCSI state died =
with the=20
    old session. iSCSI doesn't know the new session had any relationship =
to the=20
    old session.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
    class=3D198301318-08082002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D198301318-08082002>As =
Julian said,=20
    recovery at that point is up to the SCSI layer above iSCSI. It is up =
to SCSI=20
    to retry any commands that it wants to retry. When SCSI retries a =
command,=20
    iSCSI doesn't know it is a retry. To the iSCSI layer it is just like =
any=20
    other SCSI command it receives.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
    class=3D198301318-08082002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
    class=3D198301318-08082002>Pat</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
    size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Shahram Davari=20
    [mailto:Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, =
August 07,=20
    2002 8:44 AM<BR><B>To:</B> 'Julian Satran'<BR><B>Cc:</B> =
ips@ece.cmu.edu;=20
    owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: iSCSI=20
    question<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
    class=3D788564015-07082002>Julian,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
    class=3D788564015-07082002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D788564015-07082002>To=20
    start a new session you need to start new connections and you need =
to=20
    support</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
    class=3D788564015-07082002>the PDU recovery. So how is that a subset =
of PDU=20
    and connection recovery?</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
    class=3D788564015-07082002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
    class=3D788564015-07082002>-Shahram</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
    class=3D788564015-07082002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2><SPAN=20
    class=3D788564015-07082002>(<FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
    class=3D788564015-07082002>I will explain the detailed clarity =
issues in=20
    another email)</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
    <BLOCKQUOTE=20
    style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff =
2px solid">
      <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
      size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Julian Satran=20
      [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, =
August 07,=20
      2002 11:34 AM<BR><B>To:</B> Shahram Davari<BR><B>Cc:</B> =
ips@ece.cmu.edu;=20
      owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: iSCSI=20
      question<BR><BR></DIV></FONT><BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif =
size=3D2>Session=20
      recovery is in fact leaving all recovery to SCSI - it drops =
everything and=20
      creates a new session.</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif =
size=3D2>As for you=20
      comment on the clarity of chapter 5 at this stage it makes sense =
to be=20
      either specific</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2>or =
keep this type=20
      of comment out of this context.</FONT> <BR><BR><FONT =
face=3Dsans-serif=20
      size=3D2>Julo</FONT> <BR><BR><BR>
      <TABLE width=3D"100%">
        <TBODY>
        <TR vAlign=3Dtop>
          <TD>
          <TD><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1><B>Shahram Davari=20
            &lt;Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com&gt;</B></FONT>=20
            <P><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1>08/07/2002 06:09 =
PM</FONT> <BR></P>
          <TD><FONT face=3DArial size=3D1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=20
            </FONT><BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1>&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;=20
            To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Julian =
Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL</FONT>=20
            <BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; cc:=20
            &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;ips@ece.cmu.edu,=20
            owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif =
size=3D1>&nbsp;=20
            &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;RE: =
iSCSI=20
            question</FONT> <BR><BR><FONT face=3DArial size=3D1>&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;=20
            &nbsp;</FONT></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR><BR><FONT =
face=3DArial color=3Dblue=20
      size=3D2>Julian,</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"=20
      size=3D3>&nbsp;</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue =
size=3D2>Thanks. I have=20
      read that section but it is not very clear.</FONT> <BR><FONT=20
      face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>&nbsp;</FONT> <BR><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
      color=3Dblue size=3D2>I also agree that Connection recovery =
requires=20
      everything in command recovery.</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3Dblue=20
      size=3D2>But what about session recovery? isn't it a superset of =
both=20
      connection and command recovery?</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3D"Times =
New Roman"=20
      size=3D3>&nbsp;</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue =
size=3D2>Yours,</FONT>=20
      <BR><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dblue size=3D2>-Shahram</FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
      face=3DTahoma size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<B><BR>From:</B> =
Julian=20
      Satran [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]<B><BR>Sent:</B> =
Wednesday, August=20
      07, 2002 11:03 AM<B><BR>To:</B> Shahram Davari<B><BR>Cc:</B>=20
      ips@ece.cmu.edu; owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu<B><BR>Subject:</B> Re: =
iSCSI=20
      question<BR></FONT><BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif=20
      size=3D2><BR>Sharam,</FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3>=20
      <BR></FONT><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2><BR>You may want to go =
over the=20
      recovery chapter.</FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> =
</FONT><FONT=20
      face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2><BR>It has detailed answers to all your =

      questions.</FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> =
</FONT><FONT=20
      face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2><BR>The superset/subset is based on =
functions you=20
      need for the next level.</FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3>=20
      <BR></FONT><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2><BR>Session recovery =
drops real=20
      recovery to SCSI.</FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> =
</FONT><FONT=20
      face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2><BR>Command recovery recovers from =
individual=20
      command errors without <BR>changing connection and the highest =
enable you=20
      to switch to a new connection and</FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New =
Roman"=20
      size=3D3> </FONT><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2><BR>continue =
commands=20
      there.</FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> =
<BR></FONT><FONT=20
      face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2><BR>2 requires everything in =
1.</FONT><FONT=20
      face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> <BR></FONT><FONT =
face=3Dsans-serif=20
      size=3D2><BR>Julo</FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> =
<BR><BR></FONT>
      <TABLE width=3D"100%">
        <TBODY>
        <TR vAlign=3Dtop>
          <TD width=3D"2%">
          <TD width=3D"63%"><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1><B>Shahram =
Davari=20
            &lt;Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com&gt;</B></FONT><FONT=20
            face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> </FONT><FONT =
face=3Dsans-serif=20
            size=3D1><BR>Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu</FONT><FONT=20
            face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> </FONT>
            <P><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1>08/07/2002 05:17 =
PM</FONT><FONT=20
            face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> </FONT></P>
          <TD width=3D"33%"><FONT face=3DArial size=3D1>&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;=20
            </FONT><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;=20
            &nbsp;To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;ips@ece.cmu.edu</FONT><FONT=20
            face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> </FONT><FONT =
face=3Dsans-serif=20
            size=3D1><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;=20
            &nbsp;</FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> =
</FONT><FONT=20
            face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;Subject:=20
            &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;iSCSI question</FONT><FONT=20
            face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3> <BR></FONT><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
            size=3D1><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
</FONT></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR><FONT=20
      face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><BR></FONT><FONT face=3D"Courier =
New"=20
      size=3D2><BR>Hi,<BR><BR>I have a question regarding the hierarchy =
of error=20
      recovery.<BR>Section 6.13 mentions the hierarchy as:<BR><BR>2: =
Connection=20
      recovery<BR>1: Digest failure recovery<BR>0: Session =
recovery<BR><BR>And=20
      it states that the higher levels are a superset of the<BR>lower =
levels and=20
      that the level of complexity increases from =
0-&gt;1-&gt;2.<BR><BR>Couple=20
      of questions:<BR><BR>1) How is digest failure recovery done? by=20
      retransmission of PDUs?<BR>2) Why is the connection recovery a =
superset of=20
      session recovery<BR>and more complex?<BR>3) It seems to me the =
order=20
      should be:<BR><BR>2: Session recovery<BR>1: Connection =
recovery<BR>0:=20
      Digest failure recovery<BR><BR><BR>I appreciate any=20
      insight.<BR><BR>Thanks,<BR>-Shahram</FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New =
Roman"=20
      =
size=3D3><BR><BR></FONT><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></=
BODY></HTML>

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From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Thu Aug  8 17:13:38 2002
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Message-ID: <00b501c23f1e$110dc8c0$cf64a8c0@nemetz>
Reply-To: "Anshul Chadda" <anshul.chadda@trebia.com>
From: "Anshul Chadda" <achadda@trebia.com>
To: <ips@ece.cmu.edu>
References: <4B6D09F3B826D411A67300D0B706EFDEB037D3@nt-exch-yow.pmc-sierra.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: iSCSI question
Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 16:56:24 -0400
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Isn't the error recovery hierarachy based on complexitiy??

* Session recovery(0)- some amount of code
* Command/PDU recovery(1)- more code than for session recovery
* Connection recovery(2) - even more code than for Command/PDU recovery

This basis of hierarchy makes negotiation of ErrorRecoveryLevel easier
between initiators and targets!!

Anshul

----- Original Message -----
From: "Shahram Davari" <Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com>
To: "'Bill Studenmund'" <wrstuden@wasabisystems.com>
Cc: <pat_thaler@agilent.com>; <Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com>; <ips@ece.cmu.edu>;
<owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 4:21 PM
Subject: RE: iSCSI question


> Hi Bill,
>
> Thanks for your reply. Please see my comments below:
>
> 1) I doubt that the session re-establishment code is simpler than PDU
recovery code.
> But think what you are saying is that, you need to have the session
recovery anyway, so the PDU recovery is extra code.
> 2) Even if that is the case, it has nothing to do with the error recovery
hierarchy.
> The error recovery hierarchy must show what recovery should be tried
before the other ones. In other words it has to show how the recovery
escalates.
> 3) I think it should escalate as following: PDU -> Connection -> Session
>
>
> Yours,
> -Shahram
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Bill Studenmund [mailto:wrstuden@wasabisystems.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 3:59 PM
> > To: Shahram Davari
> > Cc: 'pat_thaler@agilent.com'; Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com;
> > ips@ece.cmu.edu;
> > owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
> > Subject: RE: iSCSI question
> >
> >
> > On Thu, 8 Aug 2002, Shahram Davari wrote:
> >
> > > Pat,
> > >
> >
> > > Thanks. I understand your point. Although terminating a
> > session may be
> > > easy, but, starting a new session requires new login, parameter
> > > exchange, new connections establishment, authentication, etc. So I
> > > wonder how is this any simpler than a simple PDU retransmit?
> >
> > It's simpler in terms of the code in both the initiator and target.
> >
> > That's how it's simpler. :-)
> >
> > Take care,
> >
> > Bill
> >



From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Thu Aug  8 17:15:19 2002
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From: Shahram Davari <Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com>
To: Shahram Davari <Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com>,
        "'Bill Studenmund'"
	 <wrstuden@wasabisystems.com>
Cc: "'pat_thaler@agilent.com'" <pat_thaler@agilent.com>,
        "'Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com'" <Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com>,
        "'ips@ece.cmu.edu'" <ips@ece.cmu.edu>,
        "'owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu'"
	 <owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu>
Subject: RE: iSCSI question
Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 13:49:03 -0700 
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I think I figured out were the problem (confusion) is.

1) Section 5.14 (recover classes) states:

"  The recovery scenarios detailed in the rest of this section are rep-
   resentative rather than exclusive. In every case, they detail the 
   lowest class recovery that MAY be attempted. The implementer is left 
   to decide under which circumstances to escalate to the next recovery 
   class and/or what recovery classes to implement."


2) However, section 5.5 says:

"      a) Each level is a superset of the capabilities of the previous 
      level. For example, Level 1 support implies supporting all capa-
      bilities of Level 0 and more. "


This means that section 5.14, considers the recovery classes as disjoint,
and permits escalating to higher level classes when needed, while setion 5.5 considers each class to be a superset/subset of another class. 

Which one is correct?

Yours,
-Shahram


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Shahram Davari 
> Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 4:21 PM
> To: 'Bill Studenmund'
> Cc: 'pat_thaler@agilent.com'; Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com; 
> ips@ece.cmu.edu;
> owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
> Subject: RE: iSCSI question
> 
> 
> Hi Bill,
> 
> Thanks for your reply. Please see my comments below:
> 
> 1) I doubt that the session re-establishment code is simpler 
> than PDU recovery code.
> But think what you are saying is that, you need to have the 
> session recovery anyway, so the PDU recovery is extra code.
> 2) Even if that is the case, it has nothing to do with the 
> error recovery hierarchy.
> The error recovery hierarchy must show what recovery should 
> be tried before the other ones. In other words it has to show 
> how the recovery escalates.
> 3) I think it should escalate as following: PDU -> Connection 
> -> Session
> 
> 
> Yours,
> -Shahram  
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Bill Studenmund [mailto:wrstuden@wasabisystems.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 3:59 PM
> > To: Shahram Davari
> > Cc: 'pat_thaler@agilent.com'; Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com; 
> > ips@ece.cmu.edu;
> > owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
> > Subject: RE: iSCSI question
> > 
> > 
> > On Thu, 8 Aug 2002, Shahram Davari wrote:
> > 
> > > Pat,
> > >
> > 
> > > Thanks. I understand your point. Although terminating a 
> > session may be
> > > easy, but, starting a new session requires new login, parameter
> > > exchange, new connections establishment, authentication, etc. So I
> > > wonder how is this any simpler than a simple PDU retransmit?
> > 
> > It's simpler in terms of the code in both the initiator and target.
> > 
> > That's how it's simpler. :-)
> > 
> > Take care,
> > 
> > Bill
> > 
> 


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Thu Aug  8 17:16:19 2002
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From: Shahram Davari <Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com>
To: "'Amir Shalit'" <amir@astutenetworks.com>
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu, owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: iSCSI question
Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 13:40:59 -0700 
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Amir,
 
Which one requires more CPU processing?
 
-Shahram

-----Original Message-----
From: Amir Shalit [mailto:amir@astutenetworks.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 4:39 PM
To: Shahram Davari
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu; owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: iSCSI question


Shahram,
 
1) Connection reassignment requires more than PDU retransmission to handle corner cases
 
2) Error recovery level 1&2 requires more buffering which takes space and lowers performance. If
   you support error recovery level 1 you might as well support level 2.
 
Amir

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu [mailto:owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu]On Behalf Of Shahram Davari
Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 11:27 AM
To: 'pat_thaler@agilent.com'; Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu; owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: iSCSI question


Pat,
 
Thanks. I understand your point. Although terminating a session may be easy, but, starting a new session requires new login, parameter exchange, new connections establishment, authentication, etc. So I wonder how is this any simpler than a simple PDU retransmit?
 
Yours,
-Shahram

-----Original Message-----
From: pat_thaler@agilent.com [mailto:pat_thaler@agilent.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 2:19 PM
To: Shahram Davari; Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu; owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: iSCSI question


Shahram,
 
Wen you start a new session, you don't recover any PDUs. All the iSCSI state died with the old session. iSCSI doesn't know the new session had any relationship to the old session.
 
As Julian said, recovery at that point is up to the SCSI layer above iSCSI. It is up to SCSI to retry any commands that it wants to retry. When SCSI retries a command, iSCSI doesn't know it is a retry. To the iSCSI layer it is just like any other SCSI command it receives.
 
Pat
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Shahram Davari [mailto:Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 8:44 AM
To: 'Julian Satran'
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu; owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: iSCSI question


Julian,
 
To start a new session you need to start new connections and you need to support
the PDU recovery. So how is that a subset of PDU and connection recovery?
 
 
-Shahram
 
(I will explain the detailed clarity issues in another email)

-----Original Message-----
From: Julian Satran [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 11:34 AM
To: Shahram Davari
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu; owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: iSCSI question



Session recovery is in fact leaving all recovery to SCSI - it drops everything and creates a new session. 
As for you comment on the clarity of chapter 5 at this stage it makes sense to be either specific 
or keep this type of comment out of this context. 

Julo 



	Shahram Davari <Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com> 


08/07/2002 06:09 PM 


        
        To:        Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL 
        cc:        ips@ece.cmu.edu, owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu 
        Subject:        RE: iSCSI question 

       	


Julian, 
  
Thanks. I have read that section but it is not very clear. 
  
I also agree that Connection recovery requires everything in command recovery. 
But what about session recovery? isn't it a superset of both connection and command recovery? 
  
Yours, 
-Shahram 
-----Original Message-----
From: Julian Satran [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 11:03 AM
To: Shahram Davari
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu; owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: iSCSI question


Sharam, 

You may want to go over the recovery chapter. 
It has detailed answers to all your questions. 
The superset/subset is based on functions you need for the next level. 

Session recovery drops real recovery to SCSI. 
Command recovery recovers from individual command errors without 
changing connection and the highest enable you to switch to a new connection and 
continue commands there. 

2 requires everything in 1. 

Julo 


	Shahram Davari <Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com> 
Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu 


08/07/2002 05:17 PM 

        
       To:        ips@ece.cmu.edu 
       cc:         
       Subject:        iSCSI question 

      	



Hi,

I have a question regarding the hierarchy of error recovery.
Section 6.13 mentions the hierarchy as:

2: Connection recovery
1: Digest failure recovery
0: Session recovery

And it states that the higher levels are a superset of the
lower levels and that the level of complexity increases from 0->1->2.

Couple of questions:

1) How is digest failure recovery done? by retransmission of PDUs?
2) Why is the connection recovery a superset of session recovery
and more complex?
3) It seems to me the order should be:

2: Session recovery
1: Connection recovery
0: Digest failure recovery


I appreciate any insight.

Thanks,
-Shahram






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<BODY>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=330424020-08082002>Amir,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=330424020-08082002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=330424020-08082002>Which 
one requires more CPU processing?</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=330424020-08082002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=330424020-08082002>-Shahram</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr 
style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
  <DIV align=left class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr><FONT face=Tahoma 
  size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Amir Shalit 
  [mailto:amir@astutenetworks.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, August 08, 2002 
  4:39 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Shahram Davari<BR><B>Cc:</B> ips@ece.cmu.edu; 
  owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: iSCSI 
  question<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
  <DIV><SPAN class=747123120-08082002><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial 
  size=2>Shahram,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=747123120-08082002><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial 
  size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=747123120-08082002><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2>1) 
  Connection reassignment requires more than PDU retransmission&nbsp;to 
  handle&nbsp;corner cases</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=747123120-08082002><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial 
  size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=747123120-08082002><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial 
  size=2>2)&nbsp;Error recovery level 1&amp;2 requires&nbsp;more buffering which 
  takes space and lowers performance. If</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=747123120-08082002><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial 
  size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp; you support error recovery level 1 you might as well 
  support level 2.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=747123120-08082002><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial 
  size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=747123120-08082002><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial 
  size=2>Amir</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV align=left class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr><FONT face=Tahoma 
    size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu 
    [mailto:owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Shahram 
    Davari<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, August 08, 2002 11:27 AM<BR><B>To:</B> 
    'pat_thaler@agilent.com'; Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com<BR><B>Cc:</B> 
    ips@ece.cmu.edu; owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: iSCSI 
    question<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
    class=854352218-08082002>Pat,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
    class=854352218-08082002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
    class=854352218-08082002>Thanks. I understand your point. Although 
    terminating a session&nbsp;may be easy, but, starting a new session requires 
    new login, parameter exchange, new connections establishment, 
    authentication, etc. So I wonder how is this any simpler than a simple PDU 
    retransmit?</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
    class=854352218-08082002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
    class=854352218-08082002>Yours,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
    class=854352218-08082002>-Shahram</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
    <BLOCKQUOTE 
    style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
      <DIV align=left class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr><FONT face=Tahoma 
      size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> pat_thaler@agilent.com 
      [mailto:pat_thaler@agilent.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, August 08, 2002 
      2:19 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Shahram Davari; 
      Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com<BR><B>Cc:</B> ips@ece.cmu.edu; 
      owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: iSCSI 
      question<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
      <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
      class=198301318-08082002>Shahram,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
      class=198301318-08082002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=198301318-08082002>Wen you start 
      a new session, you don't recover any PDUs. All the iSCSI state died with 
      the old session. iSCSI doesn't know the new session had any relationship 
      to the old session.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
      class=198301318-08082002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=198301318-08082002>As Julian 
      said, recovery at that point is up to the SCSI layer above iSCSI. It is up 
      to SCSI to retry any commands that it wants to retry. When SCSI retries a 
      command, iSCSI doesn't know it is a retry. To the iSCSI layer it is just 
      like any other SCSI command it receives.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
      class=198301318-08082002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
      class=198301318-08082002>Pat</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
      <DIV align=left class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr><FONT face=Tahoma 
      size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Shahram Davari 
      [mailto:Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, August 
      07, 2002 8:44 AM<BR><B>To:</B> 'Julian Satran'<BR><B>Cc:</B> 
      ips@ece.cmu.edu; owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: iSCSI 
      question<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
      <DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
      class=788564015-07082002>Julian,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
      <DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
      class=788564015-07082002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
      <DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
      class=788564015-07082002>To start a new session you need to start new 
      connections and you need to support</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
      <DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
      class=788564015-07082002>the PDU recovery. So how is that a subset of PDU 
      and connection recovery?</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
      <DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
      class=788564015-07082002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
      <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
      <DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
      class=788564015-07082002>-Shahram</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
      <DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
      class=788564015-07082002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
      <DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
      class=788564015-07082002>(<FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
      class=788564015-07082002>I will explain the detailed clarity issues in 
      another email)</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
      <BLOCKQUOTE 
      style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
        <DIV align=left class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr><FONT face=Tahoma 
        size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Julian Satran 
        [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, August 07, 
        2002 11:34 AM<BR><B>To:</B> Shahram Davari<BR><B>Cc:</B> 
        ips@ece.cmu.edu; owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: iSCSI 
        question<BR><BR></DIV></FONT><BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>Session 
        recovery is in fact leaving all recovery to SCSI - it drops everything 
        and creates a new session.</FONT> <BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>As 
        for you comment on the clarity of chapter 5 at this stage it makes sense 
        to be either specific</FONT> <BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>or keep 
        this type of comment out of this context.</FONT> <BR><BR><FONT 
        face=sans-serif size=2>Julo</FONT> <BR><BR><BR>
        <TABLE width="100%">
          <TBODY>
          <TR vAlign=top>
            <TD>
            <TD><FONT face=sans-serif size=1><B>Shahram Davari 
              &lt;Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com&gt;</B></FONT> 
              <P><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>08/07/2002 06:09 PM</FONT> 
<BR></P>
            <TD><FONT face=Arial size=1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 
              </FONT><BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 
              &nbsp; To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Julian 
              Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL</FONT> <BR><FONT face=sans-serif 
              size=1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 
              &nbsp;ips@ece.cmu.edu, owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu</FONT> <BR><FONT 
              face=sans-serif size=1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subject: &nbsp; 
              &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;RE: iSCSI question</FONT> <BR><BR><FONT 
              face=Arial size=1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 
        &nbsp;</FONT></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR><BR><FONT color=blue 
        face=Arial size=2>Julian,</FONT> <BR><FONT face="Times New Roman" 
        size=3>&nbsp;</FONT> <BR><FONT color=blue face=Arial size=2>Thanks. I 
        have read that section but it is not very clear.</FONT> <BR><FONT 
        face="Times New Roman" size=3>&nbsp;</FONT> <BR><FONT color=blue 
        face=Arial size=2>I also agree that Connection recovery requires 
        everything in command recovery.</FONT> <BR><FONT color=blue face=Arial 
        size=2>But what about session recovery? isn't it a superset of both 
        connection and command recovery?</FONT> <BR><FONT face="Times New Roman" 
        size=3>&nbsp;</FONT> <BR><FONT color=blue face=Arial 
        size=2>Yours,</FONT> <BR><FONT color=blue face=Arial 
        size=2>-Shahram</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Tahoma size=2>-----Original 
        Message-----<B><BR>From:</B> Julian Satran 
        [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]<B><BR>Sent:</B> Wednesday, August 07, 
        2002 11:03 AM<B><BR>To:</B> Shahram Davari<B><BR>Cc:</B> 
        ips@ece.cmu.edu; owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu<B><BR>Subject:</B> Re: iSCSI 
        question<BR></FONT><BR><FONT face=sans-serif 
        size=2><BR>Sharam,</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> 
        <BR></FONT><FONT face=sans-serif size=2><BR>You may want to go over the 
        recovery chapter.</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> 
        </FONT><FONT face=sans-serif size=2><BR>It has detailed answers to all 
        your questions.</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT><FONT 
        face=sans-serif size=2><BR>The superset/subset is based on functions you 
        need for the next level.</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> 
        <BR></FONT><FONT face=sans-serif size=2><BR>Session recovery drops real 
        recovery to SCSI.</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> 
        </FONT><FONT face=sans-serif size=2><BR>Command recovery recovers from 
        individual command errors without <BR>changing connection and the 
        highest enable you to switch to a new connection and</FONT><FONT 
        face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT><FONT face=sans-serif 
        size=2><BR>continue commands there.</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" 
        size=3> <BR></FONT><FONT face=sans-serif size=2><BR>2 requires 
        everything in 1.</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> 
        <BR></FONT><FONT face=sans-serif size=2><BR>Julo</FONT><FONT 
        face="Times New Roman" size=3> <BR><BR></FONT>
        <TABLE width="100%">
          <TBODY>
          <TR vAlign=top>
            <TD width="2%">
            <TD width="63%"><FONT face=sans-serif size=1><B>Shahram Davari 
              &lt;Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com&gt;</B></FONT><FONT 
              face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT><FONT face=sans-serif 
              size=1><BR>Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu</FONT><FONT 
              face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT>
              <P><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>08/07/2002 05:17 PM</FONT><FONT 
              face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT></P>
            <TD width="33%"><FONT face=Arial size=1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 
              &nbsp; </FONT><FONT face=sans-serif size=1><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; 
              &nbsp; &nbsp;To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 
              &nbsp;ips@ece.cmu.edu</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> 
              </FONT><FONT face=sans-serif size=1><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 
              &nbsp;cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</FONT><FONT 
              face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT><FONT face=sans-serif 
              size=1><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; 
              &nbsp; &nbsp;iSCSI question</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" 
              size=3> <BR></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=1><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; 
              &nbsp; </FONT></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR><FONT face="Times New Roman" 
        size=3><BR></FONT><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><BR>Hi,<BR><BR>I have 
        a question regarding the hierarchy of error recovery.<BR>Section 6.13 
        mentions the hierarchy as:<BR><BR>2: Connection recovery<BR>1: Digest 
        failure recovery<BR>0: Session recovery<BR><BR>And it states that the 
        higher levels are a superset of the<BR>lower levels and that the level 
        of complexity increases from 0-&gt;1-&gt;2.<BR><BR>Couple of 
        questions:<BR><BR>1) How is digest failure recovery done? by 
        retransmission of PDUs?<BR>2) Why is the connection recovery a superset 
        of session recovery<BR>and more complex?<BR>3) It seems to me the order 
        should be:<BR><BR>2: Session recovery<BR>1: Connection recovery<BR>0: 
        Digest failure recovery<BR><BR><BR>I appreciate any 
        insight.<BR><BR>Thanks,<BR>-Shahram</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" 
        size=3><BR><BR></FONT><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------_=_NextPart_001_01C23F1B.E727D750--


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Thu Aug  8 17:32:43 2002
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From: pat_thaler@agilent.com
To: Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com, wrstuden@wasabisystems.com
Cc: pat_thaler@agilent.com, Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com, ips@ece.cmu.edu,
        owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: iSCSI question
Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 15:12:48 -0600 
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Hi Shahram,

There isn't any session "re-establishment" code. There is session establishment code that has to be there for one to do anything and the recovery code would have something to decide to close the session and and whether to try to start the session establishment code.

The question is how often will PDU recovery work. Look at various problems:

A) The path breaks and routing doesn't switch things to another path. The TCP connection goes down. Recovery requires session or connection recovery and iSCSI knows it can't do path recovery.

B) If there is a short lived problem in the path (noise burst, congestion drop, physical layer training, quick path change), then TCP will detect the drops and recover. The iSCSI layer won't see it.

C) If the iSCSI payload is damaged when it is not protected by CRC and the TCP checksum doesn't catch the error, then iSCSI would see a PDU loss (assuming either that digests are on or that the error caused an error in a header field that prevents processing). PDU recovery can work for this situation.

D) Another possibility is that there is a protocol state problem that has occurred at one end of the connection (could be due to an implementation bug or a soft memory error changing state information). PDU recovery wouldn't work here; depending on the exact problem it may require session recovery or connection recovery may work. However, the iSCSI initiator probably doesn't know whether it is in this case or case C so if it supports path recovery, it may try it.

The worth of PDU recovery depends partly on how often case C occurs. If 99% of the failures are A and B, 1% are C and 9% are D, then one may be better off to go straight to connection or session recovery when iSCSI detects a need to recover. It isn't worth extra code, cost, and complexity to recover faster in 1% of the cases.

Even if 5% of failure are due to C and 5% are due to D, it may not be desireable to attempt path recovery. Path recovery could recover the C failures quickly but it will delay recovery for the D failures because their resolution will wait for Path recovery to be tried and time out. It can be better to decrease the maximum delay for recovery rather than to speed some cases at the cost of delaying the slower recoveries

Regards,
Pat

-----Original Message-----
From: Shahram Davari [mailto:Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 1:21 PM
To: 'Bill Studenmund'
Cc: 'pat_thaler@agilent.com'; Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com; ips@ece.cmu.edu;
owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: iSCSI question


Hi Bill,

Thanks for your reply. Please see my comments below:

1) I doubt that the session re-establishment code is simpler than PDU recovery code.
But think what you are saying is that, you need to have the session recovery anyway, so the PDU recovery is extra code.
2) Even if that is the case, it has nothing to do with the error recovery hierarchy.
The error recovery hierarchy must show what recovery should be tried before the other ones. In other words it has to show how the recovery escalates.
3) I think it should escalate as following: PDU -> Connection -> Session


Yours,
-Shahram  

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bill Studenmund [mailto:wrstuden@wasabisystems.com]
> Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 3:59 PM
> To: Shahram Davari
> Cc: 'pat_thaler@agilent.com'; Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com; 
> ips@ece.cmu.edu;
> owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
> Subject: RE: iSCSI question
> 
> 
> On Thu, 8 Aug 2002, Shahram Davari wrote:
> 
> > Pat,
> >
> 
> > Thanks. I understand your point. Although terminating a 
> session may be
> > easy, but, starting a new session requires new login, parameter
> > exchange, new connections establishment, authentication, etc. So I
> > wonder how is this any simpler than a simple PDU retransmit?
> 
> It's simpler in terms of the code in both the initiator and target.
> 
> That's how it's simpler. :-)
> 
> Take care,
> 
> Bill
> 


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Thu Aug  8 17:50:48 2002
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From: Shahram Davari <Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com>
To: "'Paul Koning'" <pkoning@equallogic.com>
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: iSCSI question
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Paul,


> But that's not what "hierarchy" refers to here.
> 
> The hierarchy is one of increased capability, not increased
> desperation.  Session recovery is the minimum required; the additional
> levels are optional capabilities in addition to the minimum.  Each
> higher level in the hierarchy is a superset of the one below.

It all depends on the definition of these recovery classes.

1) If they are defined in a superset/subset fashion, then I agree
that level of complexity increases as: Session->PDU->connection.
Then I suggest changing texts in other parts of the draft such as
section 5.14 to indicate that if you have the capabilities of
class X, then you don't need to escalate to lower classes, because
class X already has those capabilities itself. Also I suggest
changing the hierarchy figure as following:


                             +
                            / \
                           / 2 \      
                          +-----+
                         /  1,2  \     
                        +---------+
                       /   0,1,2   \   
                      +-------------+


2) If they are defined as disjoint classes, then the hierarchy for
complexity makes no sense. Rather you need a hierarchy for escalation
or transition.


Based on the emails that I have received so far it seems that the intent is the former definition.

Yours,
-Shahram 




From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Thu Aug  8 17:52:06 2002
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From: Bill Studenmund <wrstuden@wasabisystems.com>
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To: Shahram Davari <Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com>
Cc: "'pat_thaler@agilent.com'" <pat_thaler@agilent.com>,
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Subject: RE: iSCSI question
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On Thu, 8 Aug 2002, Shahram Davari wrote:

> I think I figured out were the problem (confusion) is.
>
> 1) Section 5.14 (recover classes) states:
>
> "  The recovery scenarios detailed in the rest of this section are rep-
>    resentative rather than exclusive. In every case, they detail the
>    lowest class recovery that MAY be attempted. The implementer is left
>    to decide under which circumstances to escalate to the next recovery
>    class and/or what recovery classes to implement."
>
>
> 2) However, section 5.5 says:
>
> "      a) Each level is a superset of the capabilities of the previous
>       level. For example, Level 1 support implies supporting all capa-
>       bilities of Level 0 and more. "
>
>
> This means that section 5.14, considers the recovery classes as disjoint,
> and permits escalating to higher level classes when needed, while setion 5.5 considers each class to be a superset/subset of another class.
>
> Which one is correct?

They both are.

Looking at the list I see:

	- Within a command recovery
	- Within a connection recovery
	- Connection recovery
	- Session Recovery

What isn't there is what error recovery level each option is required at.
Adding that we get:

      Level	Function

	1	Within a command recovery
	1	Within a connection recovery
	2	Connection Recovery
	0	Session recovery

So that means depending on what error recovery level you are operating at
(due to negotiations), you have a different number of options on this
list.

From your other note:

> 1) I doubt that the session re-establishment code is simpler than PDU
> recovery code. But think what you are saying is that, you need to have
> the session recovery anyway, so the PDU recovery is extra code.

For iSCSI, session recovery is simple. We kill the session and all tasks
on it. We let the *SCSI* layer above us deal with retrying the commands.
We don't. We close the socket and de-allocate all the buffers. Maybe the
initiator trys to log in again automagically, but that's not required and
even if it did, the SCSI layer above it still has to re-issue the
commands.

> 2) Even if that is the case, it has nothing to do with the error
> recovery hierarchy. The error recovery hierarchy must show what
> recovery should be tried before the other ones. In other words it has
> to show how the recovery escalates.

There is the hierarchy and the recovery level. The recovery level
indicates what options are available in the hierarchy.

> 3) I think it should escalate as following: PDU -> Connection -> Session

It does. Note: I take "PDU" to mean within-command and within-connection
recoveries.

Error Recovery Level		Hierarchy

	0			Session
	1			"PDU" -> Session
`	2			"PDU" -> Connection -> Session

Take care,

Bill



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Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: iSCSI question
Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 15:58:12 -0600 
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Shahram,

There are two recovery heirarchies. You seem to be confusing error recovery level with error recovery class.

One is the heirarchy for implementation requirements. With 3 forms of recovery, there are 8 possible combinations but to simplify interoperability and to specify minimum acceptable operation, we don't want to allow all eight. Session qualifies two ways to be level 0 of this heirarchy - it is simplest to implement and it should be able to recover from any recoverable error. 

Note that these are the error recovery levels that are described in 5.15. A sessions recovery level indicates the set of recovery classes it is capable of using. The recovery levels are defined such that a lower recovery level includes a subset of the recovery classes available at a higher recovery level.

The other heirarchy is the order in which the available classes are applied once an error occurs. This is the subject of 5.14. The classes are disjoint. 

Once an error occurs, the device will choose an error recovery class from the set of recovery classes in its recovery level. If that recovery class fails, it may try the next higher class.

Error recovery level 0 includes the Session recovery class.
Error recovery level 1 includes the two classes useful for  Digest failure recovery (Within-Command and Within-Connection) plus the Session recovery class from level 0.
Error recovery level 2 includes  Connection recovery class plus the classes included in level 1. 

I think the text already makes this clear and the pyramid correctly represents this, but perhaps the chart below the period could add "plus the capablilities of ErrorRecoveryLevel n" to the boxes for Associated Error recovery capablities for levels 1 and 2 ("n" = 0 and 1, respectively).

I hope this helps remove some of the confusion.

Pat

-----Original Message-----
From: Shahram Davari [mailto:Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 2:22 PM
To: 'Paul Koning'
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: iSCSI question


Paul,


> But that's not what "hierarchy" refers to here.
> 
> The hierarchy is one of increased capability, not increased
> desperation.  Session recovery is the minimum required; the additional
> levels are optional capabilities in addition to the minimum.  Each
> higher level in the hierarchy is a superset of the one below.

It all depends on the definition of these recovery classes.

1) If they are defined in a superset/subset fashion, then I agree
that level of complexity increases as: Session->PDU->connection.
Then I suggest changing texts in other parts of the draft such as
section 5.14 to indicate that if you have the capabilities of
class X, then you don't need to escalate to lower classes, because
class X already has those capabilities itself. Also I suggest
changing the hierarchy figure as following:


                             +
                            / \
                           / 2 \      
                          +-----+
                         /  1,2  \     
                        +---------+
                       /   0,1,2   \   
                      +-------------+


2) If they are defined as disjoint classes, then the hierarchy for
complexity makes no sense. Rather you need a hierarchy for escalation
or transition.


Based on the emails that I have received so far it seems that the intent is the former definition.

Yours,
-Shahram 



From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Thu Aug  8 21:22:46 2002
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Subject: Re: iSCSI question
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Pat is correct, the only change from what she said is that there's only
one hierarchy, not two (the error recovery "classes" have no implied hierarchy).

Even though the text is very explicit, I agree that it may still be a good idea
to improve the table as Pat suggests.
--
Mallikarjun

Mallikarjun Chadalapaka
Networked Storage Architecture
Network Storage Solutions
Hewlett-Packard MS 5668
Roseville CA 95747
cbm@rose.hp.com


----- Original Message -----
From: <pat_thaler@agilent.com>
To: <Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com>; <pkoning@equallogic.com>
Cc: <ips@ece.cmu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 2:58 PM
Subject: RE: iSCSI question


> Shahram,
>
> There are two recovery heirarchies. You seem to be confusing error recovery level with error recovery class.
>
> One is the heirarchy for implementation requirements. With 3 forms of recovery, there are 8 possible
combinations but to simplify interoperability and to specify minimum acceptable operation, we don't want to
allow all eight. Session qualifies two ways to be level 0 of this heirarchy - it is simplest to implement and
it should be able to recover from any recoverable error.
>
> Note that these are the error recovery levels that are described in 5.15. A sessions recovery level
indicates the set of recovery classes it is capable of using. The recovery levels are defined such that a
lower recovery level includes a subset of the recovery classes available at a higher recovery level.
>
> The other heirarchy is the order in which the available classes are applied once an error occurs. This is
the subject of 5.14. The classes are disjoint.
>
> Once an error occurs, the device will choose an error recovery class from the set of recovery classes in its
recovery level. If that recovery class fails, it may try the next higher class.
>
> Error recovery level 0 includes the Session recovery class.
> Error recovery level 1 includes the two classes useful for  Digest failure recovery (Within-Command and
Within-Connection) plus the Session recovery class from level 0.
> Error recovery level 2 includes  Connection recovery class plus the classes included in level 1.
>
> I think the text already makes this clear and the pyramid correctly represents this, but perhaps the chart
below the period could add "plus the capablilities of ErrorRecoveryLevel n" to the boxes for Associated Error
recovery capablities for levels 1 and 2 ("n" = 0 and 1, respectively).
>
> I hope this helps remove some of the confusion.
>
> Pat
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Shahram Davari [mailto:Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com]
> Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 2:22 PM
> To: 'Paul Koning'
> Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu
> Subject: RE: iSCSI question
>
>
> Paul,
>
>
> > But that's not what "hierarchy" refers to here.
> >
> > The hierarchy is one of increased capability, not increased
> > desperation.  Session recovery is the minimum required; the additional
> > levels are optional capabilities in addition to the minimum.  Each
> > higher level in the hierarchy is a superset of the one below.
>
> It all depends on the definition of these recovery classes.
>
> 1) If they are defined in a superset/subset fashion, then I agree
> that level of complexity increases as: Session->PDU->connection.
> Then I suggest changing texts in other parts of the draft such as
> section 5.14 to indicate that if you have the capabilities of
> class X, then you don't need to escalate to lower classes, because
> class X already has those capabilities itself. Also I suggest
> changing the hierarchy figure as following:
>
>
>                              +
>                             / \
>                            / 2 \
>                           +-----+
>                          /  1,2  \
>                         +---------+
>                        /   0,1,2   \
>                       +-------------+
>
>
> 2) If they are defined as disjoint classes, then the hierarchy for
> complexity makes no sense. Rather you need a hierarchy for escalation
> or transition.
>
>
> Based on the emails that I have received so far it seems that the intent is the former definition.
>
> Yours,
> -Shahram
>
>



From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Thu Aug  8 21:24:13 2002
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Subject: RE: iSCSI question
To: "Mark Bakke" <mbakke@cisco.com>,
        "Julian Satran" <Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com>
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Additionally (and with all due respect to the protocol
inventors), the recovery levels do not take into account
the problems most likely to be encountered.

As someone had previously pointed out, recovery from
failed connections is likely to be most used
(and should be disjoint from recovery within a
command due to digest errors which is probably
most useful for legacy tape). The person referred to
it as recovery level 0.5.

Even though the initiator has significant flexibility in
the model to use, the target is fairly hosed in this regard.

But time to close the spec.

Somesh



> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu [mailto:owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu]On Behalf Of
> Mark Bakke
> Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 10:03 AM
> To: Julian Satran
> Cc: Shahram Davari; ips@ece.cmu.edu; owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
> Subject: Re: iSCSI question
> 
> 
> 
> Julian-
> 
> Your comment is accurate, but I just want to make sure that the
> readers take "last resort" properly.  From a technical, iSCSI
> point of view, it's the last resort.
> 
> However, from a practical (implementation/deployment) point of
> view, session recovery is not all that drastic.  We have been
> shipping iSCSI drivers and targets that do session recovery for
> quite a while, and it works just quite well for disks (the OS
> SCSI layer handles any retries), and for tape applications that
> support re-positioning, which are becoming more common.  We
> have spent a significant amount of time testing this both in
> our lab and in the field.
> 
> <SOAPBOX>
> Once tape device and driver vendors support SSC-2, there should be
> no need to do more than session recovery, except perhaps for
> some performance advantages environments where a lot of connection
> recovery needs to take place.  But for most iSCSI environments,
> doing more than session recovery is not necessary.
> </SOAPBOX>
> 
> --
> Mark
> 
> Julian Satran wrote:
> > 
> > Session recovery means just creating a NEW session and 
> forgetting about all old commands.
> > It is the last resort recovery where everything else fails and 
> as such it is the most basic
> > function - that anybody has to have.
> > 
> > Julo
> > 
> >   Shahram Davari <Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com>
> >                                                          To:    
>     Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL
> >   08/07/2002 06:43 PM
> >                                                          cc:    
>     ips@ece.cmu.edu,
> >                                                  owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
> >                                                          
> Subject:        RE: iSCSI question
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Julian,
> > 
> > To start a new session you need to start new connections and 
> you need to support
> > the PDU recovery. So how is that a subset of PDU and connection 
> recovery?
> > 
> > 
> > -Shahram
> > 
> > (I will explain the detailed clarity issues in another email)
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Julian Satran [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 11:34 AM
> > To: Shahram Davari
> > Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu; owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
> > Subject: RE: iSCSI question
> > 
> > Session recovery is in fact leaving all recovery to SCSI - it 
> drops everything and creates a new
> > session.
> > As for you comment on the clarity of chapter 5 at this stage it 
> makes sense to be either specific
> > or keep this type of comment out of this context.
> > 
> > Julo
> > 
> >    Shahram Davari <Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com>
> >                                                            To:  
>       Julian
> >    08/07/2002 06:09 PM                              
> Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL
> >                                                            cc:  
>       ips@ece.cmu.edu,
> >                                                     
> owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
> >                                                            
> Subject:        RE: iSCSI question
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Julian,
> > 
> > Thanks. I have read that section but it is not very clear.
> > 
> > I also agree that Connection recovery requires everything in 
> command recovery.
> > But what about session recovery? isn't it a superset of both 
> connection and command recovery?
> > 
> > Yours,
> > -Shahram
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Julian Satran [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 11:03 AM
> > To: Shahram Davari
> > Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu; owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
> > Subject: Re: iSCSI question
> > 
> > Sharam,
> > 
> > You may want to go over the recovery chapter.
> > It has detailed answers to all your questions.
> > The superset/subset is based on functions you need for the next level.
> > 
> > Session recovery drops real recovery to SCSI.
> > Command recovery recovers from individual command errors without
> > changing connection and the highest enable you to switch to a 
> new connection and
> > continue commands there.
> > 
> > 2 requires everything in 1.
> > 
> > Julo
> >    Shahram Davari <Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com>
> >    Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu                               
>        To:        ips@ece.cmu.edu
> > 
> >    08/07/2002 05:17 PM                                          
>        cc:
> >                                                                 
>        Subject:        iSCSI
> >                                                                 
>  question
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Hi,
> > 
> > I have a question regarding the hierarchy of error recovery.
> > Section 6.13 mentions the hierarchy as:
> > 
> > 2: Connection recovery
> > 1: Digest failure recovery
> > 0: Session recovery
> > 
> > And it states that the higher levels are a superset of the
> > lower levels and that the level of complexity increases from 0->1->2.
> > 
> > Couple of questions:
> > 
> > 1) How is digest failure recovery done? by retransmission of PDUs?
> > 2) Why is the connection recovery a superset of session recovery
> > and more complex?
> > 3) It seems to me the order should be:
> > 
> > 2: Session recovery
> > 1: Connection recovery
> > 0: Digest failure recovery
> > 
> > I appreciate any insight.
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > -Shahram
> 
> -- 
> Mark A. Bakke
> Cisco Systems
> mbakke@cisco.com
> 763.398.1054


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Fri Aug  9 04:39:06 2002
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You have repaetedly said this and your position was respectfully noted.
Why do you bring this up again.  The list has somehow agreed that closed 
issues stay closed unless
you have new technical argument - and you don't bring here any.
Please refrain!

Julo
----- Forwarded by Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM on 08/09/2002 10:54 AM -----


"Somesh Gupta" <somesh_gupta@silverbacksystems.com>
08/09/2002 03:43 AM

 
        To:     "Mark Bakke" <mbakke@cisco.com>, Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL
        cc:     "Shahram Davari" <Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com>, <ips@ece.cmu.edu>, 
<owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu>
        Subject:        RE: iSCSI question

 

Additionally (and with all due respect to the protocol
inventors), the recovery levels do not take into account
the problems most likely to be encountered.

As someone had previously pointed out, recovery from
failed connections is likely to be most used
(and should be disjoint from recovery within a
command due to digest errors which is probably
most useful for legacy tape). The person referred to
it as recovery level 0.5.

Even though the initiator has significant flexibility in
the model to use, the target is fairly hosed in this regard.

But time to close the spec.

Somesh



> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu [mailto:owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu]On Behalf Of
> Mark Bakke
> Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 10:03 AM
> To: Julian Satran
> Cc: Shahram Davari; ips@ece.cmu.edu; owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
> Subject: Re: iSCSI question
> 
> 
> 
> Julian-
> 
> Your comment is accurate, but I just want to make sure that the
> readers take "last resort" properly.  From a technical, iSCSI
> point of view, it's the last resort.
> 
> However, from a practical (implementation/deployment) point of
> view, session recovery is not all that drastic.  We have been
> shipping iSCSI drivers and targets that do session recovery for
> quite a while, and it works just quite well for disks (the OS
> SCSI layer handles any retries), and for tape applications that
> support re-positioning, which are becoming more common.  We
> have spent a significant amount of time testing this both in
> our lab and in the field.
> 
> <SOAPBOX>
> Once tape device and driver vendors support SSC-2, there should be
> no need to do more than session recovery, except perhaps for
> some performance advantages environments where a lot of connection
> recovery needs to take place.  But for most iSCSI environments,
> doing more than session recovery is not necessary.
> </SOAPBOX>
> 
> --
> Mark
> 
> Julian Satran wrote:
> > 
> > Session recovery means just creating a NEW session and 
> forgetting about all old commands.
> > It is the last resort recovery where everything else fails and 
> as such it is the most basic
> > function - that anybody has to have.
> > 
> > Julo
> > 
> >   Shahram Davari <Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com>
> >                                                          To: 
>     Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL
> >   08/07/2002 06:43 PM
> >                                                          cc: 
>     ips@ece.cmu.edu,
> >                                                  owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
> > 
> Subject:        RE: iSCSI question
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Julian,
> > 
> > To start a new session you need to start new connections and 
> you need to support
> > the PDU recovery. So how is that a subset of PDU and connection 
> recovery?
> > 
> > 
> > -Shahram
> > 
> > (I will explain the detailed clarity issues in another email)
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Julian Satran [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 11:34 AM
> > To: Shahram Davari
> > Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu; owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
> > Subject: RE: iSCSI question
> > 
> > Session recovery is in fact leaving all recovery to SCSI - it 
> drops everything and creates a new
> > session.
> > As for you comment on the clarity of chapter 5 at this stage it 
> makes sense to be either specific
> > or keep this type of comment out of this context.
> > 
> > Julo
> > 
> >    Shahram Davari <Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com>
> >                                                            To: 
>       Julian
> >    08/07/2002 06:09 PM 
> Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL
> >                                                            cc: 
>       ips@ece.cmu.edu,
> > 
> owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
> > 
> Subject:        RE: iSCSI question
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Julian,
> > 
> > Thanks. I have read that section but it is not very clear.
> > 
> > I also agree that Connection recovery requires everything in 
> command recovery.
> > But what about session recovery? isn't it a superset of both 
> connection and command recovery?
> > 
> > Yours,
> > -Shahram
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Julian Satran [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 11:03 AM
> > To: Shahram Davari
> > Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu; owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
> > Subject: Re: iSCSI question
> > 
> > Sharam,
> > 
> > You may want to go over the recovery chapter.
> > It has detailed answers to all your questions.
> > The superset/subset is based on functions you need for the next level.
> > 
> > Session recovery drops real recovery to SCSI.
> > Command recovery recovers from individual command errors without
> > changing connection and the highest enable you to switch to a 
> new connection and
> > continue commands there.
> > 
> > 2 requires everything in 1.
> > 
> > Julo
> >    Shahram Davari <Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com>
> >    Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu 
>        To:        ips@ece.cmu.edu
> > 
> >    08/07/2002 05:17 PM 
>        cc:
> > 
>        Subject:        iSCSI
> > 
>  question
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Hi,
> > 
> > I have a question regarding the hierarchy of error recovery.
> > Section 6.13 mentions the hierarchy as:
> > 
> > 2: Connection recovery
> > 1: Digest failure recovery
> > 0: Session recovery
> > 
> > And it states that the higher levels are a superset of the
> > lower levels and that the level of complexity increases from 0->1->2.
> > 
> > Couple of questions:
> > 
> > 1) How is digest failure recovery done? by retransmission of PDUs?
> > 2) Why is the connection recovery a superset of session recovery
> > and more complex?
> > 3) It seems to me the order should be:
> > 
> > 2: Session recovery
> > 1: Connection recovery
> > 0: Digest failure recovery
> > 
> > I appreciate any insight.
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > -Shahram
> 
> -- 
> Mark A. Bakke
> Cisco Systems
> mbakke@cisco.com
> 763.398.1054


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<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">You have repaetedly said this and your position was respectfully noted.</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Why do you bring this up again. &nbsp;The list has somehow agreed that closed issues stay closed unless</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">you have new technical argument - and you don't bring here any.</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Please refrain!</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Julo</font>
<br><font size=1 color=#800080 face="sans-serif">----- Forwarded by Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM on 08/09/2002 10:54 AM -----</font>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>&quot;Somesh Gupta&quot; &lt;somesh_gupta@silverbacksystems.com&gt;</b></font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">08/09/2002 03:43 AM</font>
<br>
<td><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&quot;Mark Bakke&quot; &lt;mbakke@cisco.com&gt;, Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&quot;Shahram Davari&quot; &lt;Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com&gt;, &lt;ips@ece.cmu.edu&gt;, &lt;owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu&gt;</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;RE: iSCSI question</font>
<br>
<br><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font></table>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">Additionally (and with all due respect to the protocol<br>
inventors), the recovery levels do not take into account<br>
the problems most likely to be encountered.<br>
<br>
As someone had previously pointed out, recovery from<br>
failed connections is likely to be most used<br>
(and should be disjoint from recovery within a<br>
command due to digest errors which is probably<br>
most useful for legacy tape). The person referred to<br>
it as recovery level 0.5.<br>
<br>
Even though the initiator has significant flexibility in<br>
the model to use, the target is fairly hosed in this regard.<br>
<br>
But time to close the spec.<br>
<br>
Somesh<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu [mailto:owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu]On Behalf Of<br>
&gt; Mark Bakke<br>
&gt; Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 10:03 AM<br>
&gt; To: Julian Satran<br>
&gt; Cc: Shahram Davari; ips@ece.cmu.edu; owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu<br>
&gt; Subject: Re: iSCSI question<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Julian-<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Your comment is accurate, but I just want to make sure that the<br>
&gt; readers take &quot;last resort&quot; properly. &nbsp;From a technical, iSCSI<br>
&gt; point of view, it's the last resort.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; However, from a practical (implementation/deployment) point of<br>
&gt; view, session recovery is not all that drastic. &nbsp;We have been<br>
&gt; shipping iSCSI drivers and targets that do session recovery for<br>
&gt; quite a while, and it works just quite well for disks (the OS<br>
&gt; SCSI layer handles any retries), and for tape applications that<br>
&gt; support re-positioning, which are becoming more common. &nbsp;We<br>
&gt; have spent a significant amount of time testing this both in<br>
&gt; our lab and in the field.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &lt;SOAPBOX&gt;<br>
&gt; Once tape device and driver vendors support SSC-2, there should be<br>
&gt; no need to do more than session recovery, except perhaps for<br>
&gt; some performance advantages environments where a lot of connection<br>
&gt; recovery needs to take place. &nbsp;But for most iSCSI environments,<br>
&gt; doing more than session recovery is not necessary.<br>
&gt; &lt;/SOAPBOX&gt;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; --<br>
&gt; Mark<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Julian Satran wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; Session recovery means just creating a NEW session and <br>
&gt; forgetting about all old commands.<br>
&gt; &gt; It is the last resort recovery where everything else fails and <br>
&gt; as such it is the most basic<br>
&gt; &gt; function - that anybody has to have.<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; Julo<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp; Shahram Davari &lt;Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;To: &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp; 08/07/2002 06:43 PM<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;cc: &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; ips@ece.cmu.edu,<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
&gt; Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;RE: iSCSI question<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; Julian,<br>
&gt; &gt; </font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">&gt; &gt; To start a new session you need to start new connections and <br>
&gt; you need to support<br>
&gt; &gt; the PDU recovery. So how is that a subset of PDU and connection <br>
&gt; recovery?<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; -Shahram<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; (I will explain the detailed clarity issues in another email)<br>
&gt; &gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; &gt; From: Julian Satran [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]<br>
&gt; &gt; Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 11:34 AM<br>
&gt; &gt; To: Shahram Davari<br>
&gt; &gt; Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu; owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu<br>
&gt; &gt; Subject: RE: iSCSI question<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; Session recovery is in fact leaving all recovery to SCSI - it <br>
&gt; drops everything and creates a new<br>
&gt; &gt; session.<br>
&gt; &gt; As for you comment on the clarity of chapter 5 at this stage it <br>
&gt; makes sense to be either specific<br>
&gt; &gt; or keep this type of comment out of this context.<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; Julo<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;Shahram Davari &lt;Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;To: &nbsp;<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Julian<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;08/07/2002 06:09 PM &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
&gt; Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;cc: &nbsp;<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; ips@ece.cmu.edu,<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; <br>
&gt; owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
&gt; Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;RE: iSCSI question<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; Julian,<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; Thanks. I have read that section but it is not very clear.<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; I also agree that Connection recovery requires everything in <br>
&gt; command recovery.<br>
&gt; &gt; But what about session recovery? isn't it a superset of both <br>
&gt; connection and command recovery?<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; Yours,<br>
&gt; &gt; -Shahram<br>
&gt; &gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; &gt; From: Julian Satran [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]<br>
&gt; &gt; Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 11:03 AM<br>
&gt; &gt; To: Shahram Davari<br>
&gt; &gt; Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu; owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu<br>
&gt; &gt; Subject: Re: iSCSI question<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; Sharam,<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; You may want to go over the recovery chapter.<br>
&gt; &gt; It has detailed answers to all your questions.<br>
&gt; &gt; The superset/subset is based on functions you need for the next level.<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; Session recovery drops real recovery to SCSI.<br>
&gt; &gt; Command recovery recovers from individual command errors without<br>
&gt; &gt; changing connection and the highest enable you to switch to a <br>
&gt; new connection and<br>
&gt; &gt; continue commands there.<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; 2 requires everything in 1.<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; Julo<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;Shahram Davari &lt;Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; <br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;ips@ece.cmu.edu<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;08/07/2002 05:17 PM &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;cc:<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; <br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;iSCSI<br>
&gt; &gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; <br>
&gt; &nbsp;question<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; Hi,<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; I have a question regarding the hierarchy of error recovery.<br>
&gt; &gt; Section 6.13 mentions the hierarchy as:<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; 2: Connection recovery<br>
&gt; &gt; 1: Digest failure recovery<br>
&gt; &gt; 0: Session recovery<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; And it states that the higher levels are a superset of the<br>
&gt; &gt; lower levels and that the level of complexity increases from 0-&gt;1-&gt;2.<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; Couple of questions:<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; 1) How is digest failure recovery done? by retransmission of PDUs?<br>
&gt; &gt; 2) Why is the connection recovery a superset of session recovery<br>
&gt; &gt; and more complex?<br>
&gt; &gt; 3) It seems to me the order should be:<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; 2: Session recovery<br>
&gt; &gt; 1: Connection recovery<br>
&gt; &gt; 0: Digest failure recovery<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; I appreciate any insight.<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; Thanks,<br>
&gt; &gt; -Shahram<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; -- <br>
&gt; Mark A. Bakke<br>
&gt; Cisco Systems<br>
&gt; mbakke@cisco.com<br>
&gt; 763.398.1054<br>
</font>
<br>
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From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Fri Aug  9 07:57:25 2002
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To: <tonyb@cybernetics.com>
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu, owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: Re: StatSN wraparound; 2 typos
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From: "Julian Satran" <Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com>
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Tony,

For the difference between regular modulo arithmetic  and serial number 
arithmetic it would be helpful to have a glimpse at the referred RFC.
We sue regular modulo arithmetic whenever we don't have to define an 
interval (order?)  and serial where we have to.

Thanks for the typos.

Julo




"Tony Battersby" <tonyb@cybernetics.com>
Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
08/07/2002 08:57 PM
Please respond to tonyb

 
        To:     <ips@ece.cmu.edu>
        cc: 
        Subject:        StatSN wraparound; 2 typos

 

According to 2.2.2.2 (draft 15), the status sequence number space is 
32-bit
unsigned integers and the arithmetic operations are the regular mod(2**32)
arithmetic.  Why is StatSN not specified to use serial number arithmetic
(like CmdSN) to handle wrap-around?

For example, I am working on a target implementation that keeps the
information for response PDUs around until they are acknowledged by
ExpStatSN from the initiator.  If the target sends two response PDUs with
StatSNs equal to 2**32-1 and 0, and the initiator's next PDU has ExpStatSN
equal to 1, then the target should consider both response PDUs 
acknowledged.
Clearly, this will not happen with "regular" unsigned integer comparisons,
since 2**32-1 > 1.  Perhaps it should be made explicit that comparisons on
StatSN and ExpStatSN should use serial number arithmetic, which would 
handle
the wrap-around.

I have also found two typos in draft 15:

Section 11.12 MaxRecvDataSegmentLength
Last sentence "... if immediate data where sent" change "where" to "were".

Section B.3 R2TSN DataSN use Examples
Bidirectional DataSN Example "... in the alter case" change "alter" to
"latter".

Thanks,
Anthony J. Battersby
Cybernetics





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<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Tony,</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">For the difference between regular modulo arithmetic &nbsp;and serial number arithmetic it would be helpful to have a glimpse at the referred RFC.</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">We sue regular modulo arithmetic whenever we don't have to define an interval (order?) &nbsp;and serial where we have to.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Thanks for the typos.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Julo</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>&quot;Tony Battersby&quot; &lt;tonyb@cybernetics.com&gt;</b></font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu</font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">08/07/2002 08:57 PM</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Please respond to tonyb</font>
<br>
<td><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&lt;ips@ece.cmu.edu&gt;</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;StatSN wraparound; 2 typos</font>
<br>
<br><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font></table>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">According to 2.2.2.2 (draft 15), the status sequence number space is 32-bit<br>
unsigned integers and the arithmetic operations are the regular mod(2**32)<br>
arithmetic. &nbsp;Why is StatSN not specified to use serial number arithmetic<br>
(like CmdSN) to handle wrap-around?<br>
<br>
For example, I am working on a target implementation that keeps the<br>
information for response PDUs around until they are acknowledged by<br>
ExpStatSN from the initiator. &nbsp;If the target sends two response PDUs with<br>
StatSNs equal to 2**32-1 and 0, and the initiator's next PDU has ExpStatSN<br>
equal to 1, then the target should consider both response PDUs acknowledged.<br>
Clearly, this will not happen with &quot;regular&quot; unsigned integer comparisons,<br>
since 2**32-1 &gt; 1. &nbsp;Perhaps it should be made explicit that comparisons on<br>
StatSN and ExpStatSN should use serial number arithmetic, which would handle<br>
the wrap-around.<br>
<br>
I have also found two typos in draft 15:<br>
<br>
Section 11.12 MaxRecvDataSegmentLength<br>
Last sentence &quot;... if immediate data where sent&quot; change &quot;where&quot; to &quot;were&quot;.<br>
<br>
Section B.3 R2TSN DataSN use Examples<br>
Bidirectional DataSN Example &quot;... in the alter case&quot; change &quot;alter&quot; to<br>
&quot;latter&quot;.<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
Anthony J. Battersby<br>
Cybernetics<br>
<br>
<br>
</font>
<br>
<br>
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From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Fri Aug  9 10:27:37 2002
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From: Shahram Davari <Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com>
To: "'pat_thaler@agilent.com'" <pat_thaler@agilent.com>,
        pkoning@equallogic.com
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: iSCSI question
Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 06:47:35 -0700 
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Pat,

Thanks for your excellent description. I now fully understand the
issue.

However, I disagree that the text is clear on the difference between
error recover classes and error recovery levels. As a proof, look at figure 2, in section 5.15:

  +-------------------+--------------------------------------------+
  |ErrorRecoveryLevel |  Associated Error recovery capabilities    |
  +-------------------+--------------------------------------------+
  |        0          |  Session recovery class                    |
  |                   |  (Section 5.14.4 Session Recovery)         |
  +-------------------+--------------------------------------------+
  |        1          |  Digest failure recovery (See Note below.) |
  +-------------------+--------------------------------------------+
  |        2          |  Connection recovery class                 |
  |                   |  (Section 5.14.3 Connection Recovery)      | 
  +-------------------+--------------------------------------------+

In which, each recovery level is associated with only one recovery class.


Yours,
-Shahram

> -----Original Message-----
> From: pat_thaler@agilent.com [mailto:pat_thaler@agilent.com]
> Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 5:58 PM
> To: Shahram Davari; pkoning@equallogic.com
> Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu
> Subject: RE: iSCSI question
> 
> 
> Shahram,
> 
> There are two recovery heirarchies. You seem to be confusing 
> error recovery level with error recovery class.
> 
> One is the heirarchy for implementation requirements. With 3 
> forms of recovery, there are 8 possible combinations but to 
> simplify interoperability and to specify minimum acceptable 
> operation, we don't want to allow all eight. Session 
> qualifies two ways to be level 0 of this heirarchy - it is 
> simplest to implement and it should be able to recover from 
> any recoverable error. 
> 
> Note that these are the error recovery levels that are 
> described in 5.15. A sessions recovery level indicates the 
> set of recovery classes it is capable of using. The recovery 
> levels are defined such that a lower recovery level includes 
> a subset of the recovery classes available at a higher recovery level.
> 
> The other heirarchy is the order in which the available 
> classes are applied once an error occurs. This is the subject 
> of 5.14. The classes are disjoint. 
> 
> Once an error occurs, the device will choose an error 
> recovery class from the set of recovery classes in its 
> recovery level. If that recovery class fails, it may try the 
> next higher class.
> 
> Error recovery level 0 includes the Session recovery class.
> Error recovery level 1 includes the two classes useful for  
> Digest failure recovery (Within-Command and 
> Within-Connection) plus the Session recovery class from level 0.
> Error recovery level 2 includes  Connection recovery class 
> plus the classes included in level 1. 
> 
> I think the text already makes this clear and the pyramid 
> correctly represents this, but perhaps the chart below the 
> period could add "plus the capablilities of 
> ErrorRecoveryLevel n" to the boxes for Associated Error 
> recovery capablities for levels 1 and 2 ("n" = 0 and 1, respectively).
> 
> I hope this helps remove some of the confusion.
> 
> Pat
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Shahram Davari [mailto:Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com]
> Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 2:22 PM
> To: 'Paul Koning'
> Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu
> Subject: RE: iSCSI question
> 
> 
> Paul,
> 
> 
> > But that's not what "hierarchy" refers to here.
> > 
> > The hierarchy is one of increased capability, not increased
> > desperation.  Session recovery is the minimum required; the 
> additional
> > levels are optional capabilities in addition to the minimum.  Each
> > higher level in the hierarchy is a superset of the one below.
> 
> It all depends on the definition of these recovery classes.
> 
> 1) If they are defined in a superset/subset fashion, then I agree
> that level of complexity increases as: Session->PDU->connection.
> Then I suggest changing texts in other parts of the draft such as
> section 5.14 to indicate that if you have the capabilities of
> class X, then you don't need to escalate to lower classes, because
> class X already has those capabilities itself. Also I suggest
> changing the hierarchy figure as following:
> 
> 
>                              +
>                             / \
>                            / 2 \      
>                           +-----+
>                          /  1,2  \     
>                         +---------+
>                        /   0,1,2   \   
>                       +-------------+
> 
> 
> 2) If they are defined as disjoint classes, then the hierarchy for
> complexity makes no sense. Rather you need a hierarchy for escalation
> or transition.
> 
> 
> Based on the emails that I have received so far it seems that 
> the intent is the former definition.
> 
> Yours,
> -Shahram 
> 


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Fri Aug  9 10:29:03 2002
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Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 10:11:38 -0400
From: Luben Tuikov <luben@splentec.com>
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To: Black_David@emc.com
CC: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: iSCSI: Check Condition and Residuals
References: <277DD60FB639D511AC0400B0D068B71E064435AA@CORPMX14>
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Black_David@emc.com wrote:
> 
> I think Julian's point is that the use of sense data
> vs. transport support to return residual counts for
> CHECK CONDITION is in T10's domain to specify, and
> we ought to leave it to T10, but warn implementers
> that it would be wrong to assume that iSCSI residuals
> will only show up when GOOD status is returned.

And this is EXACTLY WHAT I'm saying.
Quoting myself here for n-th time:

`` I.e. the target SHOULD NOT look inside the sense data
   and retrieve them [residuals] (EXTENDED COPY exception). ''

This has been an absolute non-issue for me right in
the beginning with this:

Santosh Rao wrote (Thu, 01 Aug 2002 10:11:48 -0700):
> Julian & Robert [Russell],
>
> I raised the same query regarding RESID for FCP/FCP-2 this time last
> year. The response I got for FCP/FCP-2 was that RESID information shall
> be valid, regardless of the scsi status returned. The RESID field, can
> be checked by the scsi transport drivers independent of the SCSI STATUS.
THIS-------------------------------------->^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 
> I have enclosed the T10 response from Rob Snivelly below on that issue.
> As per FC-PLDA, the RESID information is valid, regardless of the scsi
> status returned by the device. 
>
> An example of this is the case of "NO SENSE" or "RECOVERED ERROR" check
> condition, when the data transfer may have taken place and a CHECK
> CONDITION is returned. Also, for other CHECK CONDITION status', partial
> data transfer may have taken place and hence, resid information should
> be present.

This alone is CLEARLY implying that targets look up the residuals
right in the sense data, which is totally wrong. (Repeating myself
here again.)

I don't know why this was brought up _at__all_.

The iSCSI document is as clear and complete as anything else
regarding residuals and NOTHING should be touched regarding
that matter. <- that's what I'm saying.

-- 
Luben


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Fri Aug  9 11:07:39 2002
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From: Luben Tuikov <luben@splentec.com>
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To: Black_David@emc.com
CC: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: iSCSI and FCP
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Black_David@emc.com wrote:
> 
> > > Also, a transport (iSCSI) shouldn't be influenced by
> > > another transport (FCP), but only by the unifying layer,
> > > i.e. SAM-3.
> >
> > Well?
> 
> Ok as a "first principles" position, I suppose ...

Sorry, my mistake again. (Can you have it any other way?!)

I always take the position of ``first principles'',
``black and white'', ``0 or 1'', etc. -- it's just
a lot easier and straightforward.

`` ... speaking as an engineer.''
                           -- Dilbert
-- 
Luben


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Fri Aug  9 12:54:59 2002
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Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 09:12:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: Bill Studenmund <wrstuden@wasabisystems.com>
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Subject: Problem with use of NotUnderstood in negotiations
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I encountered a problem with how draft 15 specifies using NotUnderstood as
a reply to keys that aren't understood. Namely if something injects
garbage into the negotiation stream we can end up with a key BOTH sides
don't understand, and so they both sit there sending "foo=NotUnderstood"
back and forth to each other.

Yes, well-behaved negotiators won't offer a key they don't understand. But
the data stream can be corrupted, and all it would take is a single-bit
error in a key name and we encounter the above.

I propose we change the text to:

Any key not understood by the acceptor may be ignored by the acceptor
without affecting the basic function. However, unless the value for the
key was "NotUnderstood", the answer for a key not understood MUST be
key=NotUnderstood. If the value for the key was "NotUnderstood", the
acceptor MUST not answer the key.

Note: I can easily see closing the connection with an error in the above
case too.

Thoughts?

Take care,

Bill



From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Fri Aug  9 13:48:17 2002
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From: pat_thaler@agilent.com
To: Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com, pat_thaler@agilent.com,
        pkoning@equallogic.com
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: iSCSI question
Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 11:10:06 -0600 
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Shaharam,

I agree that the table by itself is not clear, but that the text of the section clearly states things. That is why I suggested a change to that table:

  +-------------------+--------------------------------------------+
  |ErrorRecoveryLevel |  Associated Error recovery capabilities    |
  +-------------------+--------------------------------------------+
  |        0          |  Session recovery class                    |
  |                   |  (Section 5.14.4 Session Recovery)         |
  +-------------------+--------------------------------------------+
  |        1          |  Digest failure recovery (See Note below.) |
  |                   |  plus all ErrorRecoverLevel 0 capabilities |  
  +-------------------+--------------------------------------------+
  |        2          |  Connection recovery class                 |
  |                   |  (Section 5.14.3 Connection Recovery)      | 
  |                   |  plus all ErrorRecoverLevel 1 capabilities |
  +-------------------+--------------------------------------------+

Pat


-----Original Message-----
From: Shahram Davari [mailto:Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com]
Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 6:48 AM
To: 'pat_thaler@agilent.com'; pkoning@equallogic.com
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: iSCSI question


Pat,

Thanks for your excellent description. I now fully understand the
issue.

However, I disagree that the text is clear on the difference between
error recover classes and error recovery levels. As a proof, look at figure 2, in section 5.15:

  +-------------------+--------------------------------------------+
  |ErrorRecoveryLevel |  Associated Error recovery capabilities    |
  +-------------------+--------------------------------------------+
  |        0          |  Session recovery class                    |
  |                   |  (Section 5.14.4 Session Recovery)         |
  +-------------------+--------------------------------------------+
  |        1          |  Digest failure recovery (See Note below.) |
  +-------------------+--------------------------------------------+
  |        2          |  Connection recovery class                 |
  |                   |  (Section 5.14.3 Connection Recovery)      | 
  +-------------------+--------------------------------------------+

In which, each recovery level is associated with only one recovery class.


Yours,
-Shahram

> -----Original Message-----
> From: pat_thaler@agilent.com [mailto:pat_thaler@agilent.com]
> Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 5:58 PM
> To: Shahram Davari; pkoning@equallogic.com
> Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu
> Subject: RE: iSCSI question
> 
> 
> Shahram,
> 
> There are two recovery heirarchies. You seem to be confusing 
> error recovery level with error recovery class.
> 
> One is the heirarchy for implementation requirements. With 3 
> forms of recovery, there are 8 possible combinations but to 
> simplify interoperability and to specify minimum acceptable 
> operation, we don't want to allow all eight. Session 
> qualifies two ways to be level 0 of this heirarchy - it is 
> simplest to implement and it should be able to recover from 
> any recoverable error. 
> 
> Note that these are the error recovery levels that are 
> described in 5.15. A sessions recovery level indicates the 
> set of recovery classes it is capable of using. The recovery 
> levels are defined such that a lower recovery level includes 
> a subset of the recovery classes available at a higher recovery level.
> 
> The other heirarchy is the order in which the available 
> classes are applied once an error occurs. This is the subject 
> of 5.14. The classes are disjoint. 
> 
> Once an error occurs, the device will choose an error 
> recovery class from the set of recovery classes in its 
> recovery level. If that recovery class fails, it may try the 
> next higher class.
> 
> Error recovery level 0 includes the Session recovery class.
> Error recovery level 1 includes the two classes useful for  
> Digest failure recovery (Within-Command and 
> Within-Connection) plus the Session recovery class from level 0.
> Error recovery level 2 includes  Connection recovery class 
> plus the classes included in level 1. 
> 
> I think the text already makes this clear and the pyramid 
> correctly represents this, but perhaps the chart below the 
> period could add "plus the capablilities of 
> ErrorRecoveryLevel n" to the boxes for Associated Error 
> recovery capablities for levels 1 and 2 ("n" = 0 and 1, respectively).
> 
> I hope this helps remove some of the confusion.
> 
> Pat
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Shahram Davari [mailto:Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com]
> Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 2:22 PM
> To: 'Paul Koning'
> Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu
> Subject: RE: iSCSI question
> 
> 
> Paul,
> 
> 
> > But that's not what "hierarchy" refers to here.
> > 
> > The hierarchy is one of increased capability, not increased
> > desperation.  Session recovery is the minimum required; the 
> additional
> > levels are optional capabilities in addition to the minimum.  Each
> > higher level in the hierarchy is a superset of the one below.
> 
> It all depends on the definition of these recovery classes.
> 
> 1) If they are defined in a superset/subset fashion, then I agree
> that level of complexity increases as: Session->PDU->connection.
> Then I suggest changing texts in other parts of the draft such as
> section 5.14 to indicate that if you have the capabilities of
> class X, then you don't need to escalate to lower classes, because
> class X already has those capabilities itself. Also I suggest
> changing the hierarchy figure as following:
> 
> 
>                              +
>                             / \
>                            / 2 \      
>                           +-----+
>                          /  1,2  \     
>                         +---------+
>                        /   0,1,2   \   
>                       +-------------+
> 
> 
> 2) If they are defined as disjoint classes, then the hierarchy for
> complexity makes no sense. Rather you need a hierarchy for escalation
> or transition.
> 
> 
> Based on the emails that I have received so far it seems that 
> the intent is the former definition.
> 
> Yours,
> -Shahram 
> 


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Fri Aug  9 13:49:11 2002
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From: Shahram Davari <Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com>
To: "'pat_thaler@agilent.com'" <pat_thaler@agilent.com>,
        pkoning@equallogic.com
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: iSCSI question
Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 10:27:20 -0700 
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Pat,

Seems alright.

-Shahram

> -----Original Message-----
> From: pat_thaler@agilent.com [mailto:pat_thaler@agilent.com]
> Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 1:10 PM
> To: Shahram Davari; pat_thaler@agilent.com; pkoning@equallogic.com
> Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu
> Subject: RE: iSCSI question
> 
> 
> Shaharam,
> 
> I agree that the table by itself is not clear, but that the 
> text of the section clearly states things. That is why I 
> suggested a change to that table:
> 
>   +-------------------+--------------------------------------------+
>   |ErrorRecoveryLevel |  Associated Error recovery capabilities    |
>   +-------------------+--------------------------------------------+
>   |        0          |  Session recovery class                    |
>   |                   |  (Section 5.14.4 Session Recovery)         |
>   +-------------------+--------------------------------------------+
>   |        1          |  Digest failure recovery (See Note below.) |
>   |                   |  plus all ErrorRecoverLevel 0 capabilities |  
>   +-------------------+--------------------------------------------+
>   |        2          |  Connection recovery class                 |
>   |                   |  (Section 5.14.3 Connection Recovery)      | 
>   |                   |  plus all ErrorRecoverLevel 1 capabilities |
>   +-------------------+--------------------------------------------+
> 
> Pat
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Shahram Davari [mailto:Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com]
> Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 6:48 AM
> To: 'pat_thaler@agilent.com'; pkoning@equallogic.com
> Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu
> Subject: RE: iSCSI question
> 
> 
> Pat,
> 
> Thanks for your excellent description. I now fully understand the
> issue.
> 
> However, I disagree that the text is clear on the difference between
> error recover classes and error recovery levels. As a proof, 
> look at figure 2, in section 5.15:
> 
>   +-------------------+--------------------------------------------+
>   |ErrorRecoveryLevel |  Associated Error recovery capabilities    |
>   +-------------------+--------------------------------------------+
>   |        0          |  Session recovery class                    |
>   |                   |  (Section 5.14.4 Session Recovery)         |
>   +-------------------+--------------------------------------------+
>   |        1          |  Digest failure recovery (See Note below.) |
>   +-------------------+--------------------------------------------+
>   |        2          |  Connection recovery class                 |
>   |                   |  (Section 5.14.3 Connection Recovery)      | 
>   +-------------------+--------------------------------------------+
> 
> In which, each recovery level is associated with only one 
> recovery class.
> 
> 
> Yours,
> -Shahram
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: pat_thaler@agilent.com [mailto:pat_thaler@agilent.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 5:58 PM
> > To: Shahram Davari; pkoning@equallogic.com
> > Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu
> > Subject: RE: iSCSI question
> > 
> > 
> > Shahram,
> > 
> > There are two recovery heirarchies. You seem to be confusing 
> > error recovery level with error recovery class.
> > 
> > One is the heirarchy for implementation requirements. With 3 
> > forms of recovery, there are 8 possible combinations but to 
> > simplify interoperability and to specify minimum acceptable 
> > operation, we don't want to allow all eight. Session 
> > qualifies two ways to be level 0 of this heirarchy - it is 
> > simplest to implement and it should be able to recover from 
> > any recoverable error. 
> > 
> > Note that these are the error recovery levels that are 
> > described in 5.15. A sessions recovery level indicates the 
> > set of recovery classes it is capable of using. The recovery 
> > levels are defined such that a lower recovery level includes 
> > a subset of the recovery classes available at a higher 
> recovery level.
> > 
> > The other heirarchy is the order in which the available 
> > classes are applied once an error occurs. This is the subject 
> > of 5.14. The classes are disjoint. 
> > 
> > Once an error occurs, the device will choose an error 
> > recovery class from the set of recovery classes in its 
> > recovery level. If that recovery class fails, it may try the 
> > next higher class.
> > 
> > Error recovery level 0 includes the Session recovery class.
> > Error recovery level 1 includes the two classes useful for  
> > Digest failure recovery (Within-Command and 
> > Within-Connection) plus the Session recovery class from level 0.
> > Error recovery level 2 includes  Connection recovery class 
> > plus the classes included in level 1. 
> > 
> > I think the text already makes this clear and the pyramid 
> > correctly represents this, but perhaps the chart below the 
> > period could add "plus the capablilities of 
> > ErrorRecoveryLevel n" to the boxes for Associated Error 
> > recovery capablities for levels 1 and 2 ("n" = 0 and 1, 
> respectively).
> > 
> > I hope this helps remove some of the confusion.
> > 
> > Pat
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Shahram Davari [mailto:Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 2:22 PM
> > To: 'Paul Koning'
> > Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu
> > Subject: RE: iSCSI question
> > 
> > 
> > Paul,
> > 
> > 
> > > But that's not what "hierarchy" refers to here.
> > > 
> > > The hierarchy is one of increased capability, not increased
> > > desperation.  Session recovery is the minimum required; the 
> > additional
> > > levels are optional capabilities in addition to the minimum.  Each
> > > higher level in the hierarchy is a superset of the one below.
> > 
> > It all depends on the definition of these recovery classes.
> > 
> > 1) If they are defined in a superset/subset fashion, then I agree
> > that level of complexity increases as: Session->PDU->connection.
> > Then I suggest changing texts in other parts of the draft such as
> > section 5.14 to indicate that if you have the capabilities of
> > class X, then you don't need to escalate to lower classes, because
> > class X already has those capabilities itself. Also I suggest
> > changing the hierarchy figure as following:
> > 
> > 
> >                              +
> >                             / \
> >                            / 2 \      
> >                           +-----+
> >                          /  1,2  \     
> >                         +---------+
> >                        /   0,1,2   \   
> >                       +-------------+
> > 
> > 
> > 2) If they are defined as disjoint classes, then the hierarchy for
> > complexity makes no sense. Rather you need a hierarchy for 
> escalation
> > or transition.
> > 
> > 
> > Based on the emails that I have received so far it seems that 
> > the intent is the former definition.
> > 
> > Yours,
> > -Shahram 
> > 
> 


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Fri Aug  9 15:13:37 2002
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Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 11:43:40 -0700
From: Santosh Rao <santoshr@cup.hp.com>
Organization: Hewlett Packard, Cupertino.
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To: Luben Tuikov <luben@splentec.com>
Cc: Black_David@emc.com, ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: iSCSI: Check Condition and Residuals
References: <277DD60FB639D511AC0400B0D068B71E064435AA@CORPMX14> <3D53CD9A.5B075DC7@splentec.com>
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Luben Tuikov wrote:

> Santosh Rao wrote (Thu, 01 Aug 2002 10:11:48 -0700):
> > Julian & Robert [Russell],
> >
> > I raised the same query regarding RESID for FCP/FCP-2 this time last
> > year. The response I got for FCP/FCP-2 was that RESID information shall
> > be valid, regardless of the scsi status returned. The RESID field, can
> > be checked by the scsi transport drivers independent of the SCSI STATUS.
> THIS-------------------------------------->^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > I have enclosed the T10 response from Rob Snivelly below on that issue.
> > As per FC-PLDA, the RESID information is valid, regardless of the scsi
> > status returned by the device.
> >
> > An example of this is the case of "NO SENSE" or "RECOVERED ERROR" check
> > condition, when the data transfer may have taken place and a CHECK
> > CONDITION is returned. Also, for other CHECK CONDITION status', partial
> > data transfer may have taken place and hence, resid information should
> > be present.
> 
> This alone is CLEARLY implying that targets look up the residuals
> right in the sense data, which is totally wrong. (Repeating myself
> here again.)



My mail raised the question of when FCP-x initiator scsi transport
drivers can examine the resid field. This has nothing to do with
targets. I made no mention of targets peeking into sense data. 

Please read the complete mail properly in its full context before
arriving at conclusions.

- Santosh


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Fri Aug  9 16:09:29 2002
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To: Santosh Rao <santoshr@cup.hp.com>
CC: Black_David@emc.com, ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: iSCSI: Check Condition and Residuals
References: <277DD60FB639D511AC0400B0D068B71E064435AA@CORPMX14> <3D53CD9A.5B075DC7@splentec.com> <3D540D5B.6FAFF5F3@cup.hp.com>
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Santosh Rao wrote:
> 
> Luben Tuikov wrote:
> 
> > Santosh Rao wrote (Thu, 01 Aug 2002 10:11:48 -0700):
> > > Julian & Robert [Russell],
> > >
> > > I raised the same query regarding RESID for FCP/FCP-2 this time last
> > > year. The response I got for FCP/FCP-2 was that RESID information shall
> > > be valid, regardless of the scsi status returned. The RESID field, can
> > > be checked by the scsi transport drivers independent of the SCSI STATUS.
> > THIS-------------------------------------->^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > > I have enclosed the T10 response from Rob Snivelly below on that issue.
> > > As per FC-PLDA, the RESID information is valid, regardless of the scsi
> > > status returned by the device.
> > >
> > > An example of this is the case of "NO SENSE" or "RECOVERED ERROR" check
> > > condition, when the data transfer may have taken place and a CHECK
> > > CONDITION is returned. Also, for other CHECK CONDITION status', partial
> > > data transfer may have taken place and hence, resid information should
> > > be present.
> >
> > This alone is CLEARLY implying that targets look up the residuals
> > right in the sense data, which is totally wrong. (Repeating myself
> > here again.)
> 
> My mail raised the question of when FCP-x initiator scsi transport
> drivers can examine the resid field. This has nothing to do with
> targets. I made no mention of targets peeking into sense data.

Be that as it may, BUT you _were__spilling_ it into iSCSI.

AND iSCSI is clear on that! Residuals are valid only when
the appropriate bit is set (o/O/u/U).

Also your mail _is_suggestive_ of peeking into the sense data,
since you mention that status should be irrelevant for residuals.
(Again spilling this into iSCSI!)

This has _always_ been and still is a NON-ISSUE for me.

Again, iSCSI is clear, and as complete on residuals as anything
else out there.

If anyone has a problem with this, they should raise the issue
with T10 for a poke at SAM and/or SPC (whatever _they_ decide).

-- 
Luben


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Fri Aug  9 16:11:30 2002
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From: Bart Crane <bcrane@iready.com>
To: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: Problem with use of NotUnderstood in negotiations
Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 12:32:44 -0700 
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This new rule is not necessary.

Sec. 4.2 says:

   The constants None, Reject, Irrelevant, and NotUnderstood
   are reserved and must only be used as described here.

In the situation you describe, the sender will be expecting 
a response to "keyA", but the key-name was corrupted to "keyB".

The receiver does not understand "keyB", and so responds with 
"keyB=NotUnderstood".

To the sender, this appears to be the start of negotiating a
new key, "keyB", with the value "NotUnderstood".  

But, this is not a valid use of the value "NotUnderstood", 
so it is a protocol error.

So, the new rule of not-responding to keys with the value 
"NotUnderstood" is not necessary.

Bart.

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Studenmund [mailto:wrstuden@wasabisystems.com]
Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 9:12 AM
To: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: Problem with use of NotUnderstood in negotiations


I encountered a problem with how draft 15 specifies using NotUnderstood as
a reply to keys that aren't understood. Namely if something injects
garbage into the negotiation stream we can end up with a key BOTH sides
don't understand, and so they both sit there sending "foo=NotUnderstood"
back and forth to each other.

Yes, well-behaved negotiators won't offer a key they don't understand. But
the data stream can be corrupted, and all it would take is a single-bit
error in a key name and we encounter the above.

I propose we change the text to:

Any key not understood by the acceptor may be ignored by the acceptor
without affecting the basic function. However, unless the value for the
key was "NotUnderstood", the answer for a key not understood MUST be
key=NotUnderstood. If the value for the key was "NotUnderstood", the
acceptor MUST not answer the key.

Note: I can easily see closing the connection with an error in the above
case too.

Thoughts?

Take care,

Bill

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<P><FONT SIZE=2>This new rule is not necessary.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>Sec. 4.2 says:</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>&nbsp;&nbsp; The constants None, Reject, Irrelevant, and NotUnderstood</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&nbsp;&nbsp; are reserved and must only be used as described here.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>In the situation you describe, the sender will be expecting </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>a response to &quot;keyA&quot;, but the key-name was corrupted to &quot;keyB&quot;.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>The receiver does not understand &quot;keyB&quot;, and so responds with </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&quot;keyB=NotUnderstood&quot;.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>To the sender, this appears to be the start of negotiating a</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>new key, &quot;keyB&quot;, with the value &quot;NotUnderstood&quot;.&nbsp; </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>But, this is not a valid use of the value &quot;NotUnderstood&quot;, </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>so it is a protocol error.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>So, the new rule of not-responding to keys with the value </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&quot;NotUnderstood&quot; is not necessary.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>Bart.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>-----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>From: Bill Studenmund [<A HREF="mailto:wrstuden@wasabisystems.com">mailto:wrstuden@wasabisystems.com</A>]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 9:12 AM</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>To: ips@ece.cmu.edu</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>Subject: Problem with use of NotUnderstood in negotiations</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>I encountered a problem with how draft 15 specifies using NotUnderstood as</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>a reply to keys that aren't understood. Namely if something injects</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>garbage into the negotiation stream we can end up with a key BOTH sides</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>don't understand, and so they both sit there sending &quot;foo=NotUnderstood&quot;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>back and forth to each other.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>Yes, well-behaved negotiators won't offer a key they don't understand. But</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>the data stream can be corrupted, and all it would take is a single-bit</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>error in a key name and we encounter the above.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>I propose we change the text to:</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>Any key not understood by the acceptor may be ignored by the acceptor</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>without affecting the basic function. However, unless the value for the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>key was &quot;NotUnderstood&quot;, the answer for a key not understood MUST be</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>key=NotUnderstood. If the value for the key was &quot;NotUnderstood&quot;, the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>acceptor MUST not answer the key.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>Note: I can easily see closing the connection with an error in the above</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>case too.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>Thoughts?</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>Take care,</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>Bill</FONT>
</P>

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From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Fri Aug  9 16:12:11 2002
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Subject: Re: iSCSI: Check Condition and Residuals
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It sounds to me like there is a mis-understanding here on who owns the
"RESID" field. 

FCP-2 makes it clear that it is the FCP-2 SCSI LLP in the target that
should initialize this field based on FCP_DL and its state information
on the bytes transferred. IOW, this is a field owned by the scsi
transport and should be initialized/computed by the scsi transport. (See
FCP-2 Rev 07a Section 9.4.8).

It sounds like folks here are assuming the the SCSI device server is
going to provide this information to the iSCSI LLP layer in the target
and the iscsi target layer would then copy this information into the
Response PDU. 

It is upto the iSCSI layer to initialize the RESID field anytime a data
underflow or overflow condition occurs. Perhaps, the RESID field
definition should provide guidelines on how the iscsi target layer
should compute the RESID, as is done by FCP-2 Section 9.4.8.

- Santosh


Luben Tuikov wrote:

> Be that as it may, BUT you _were__spilling_ it into iSCSI.
> 
> AND iSCSI is clear on that! Residuals are valid only when
> the appropriate bit is set (o/O/u/U).
> 
> Also your mail _is_suggestive_ of peeking into the sense data,
> since you mention that status should be irrelevant for residuals.
> (Again spilling this into iSCSI!)
> 
> This has _always_ been and still is a NON-ISSUE for me.
> 
> Again, iSCSI is clear, and as complete on residuals as anything
> else out there.
> 
> If anyone has a problem with this, they should raise the issue
> with T10 for a poke at SAM and/or SPC (whatever _they_ decide).


-- 
Finish each day and be done with it.  You have done what you could; 
some blunders and absurdities have crept in; forget them as soon as 
you can. Tomorrow is a new day; you shall begin it serenely and 
with too high a spirit to be encumbered with your old nonsense.


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From: pat_thaler@agilent.com
To: bcrane@iready.com, ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: Problem with use of NotUnderstood in negotiations
Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 14:04:36 -0600 
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Bart,
 
So the question is, in what order does a device do the checking.
 
There are many possibilites for handling a received key that is 
unknown and comes in with the value unknown:
 
A) Check key
       if key unknown, send key=NotUnderstood
         else ...process key=value pair
 
B) Check key
       if key unknown
         if value=NotUnderstood silently drop (or close connection)
           else send key=NotUnderstood
 
I expect case A is more likely to get implemented in the absence 
of an explicit statement. There would normally be no need to 
examine the value of a key when one doesn't understand the key.
In this case, the receiver never does a test that detects the 
apparent protocol violation of making an offer with a value 
NotUnderstood.
 
So, if we want to stop the loop that Bill has found, we should 
put in an explicit requirement to test the value for NotUnderstood 
before responding to a key with NotUnderstood.
 
The alternative is to leave things as they are and count on 
implementations to abort the negotiation based on a timeout
or a count of excessive number of negotiation PDU exchanges.
 
Regards,
Pat
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Bart Crane [mailto:bcrane@iready.com]
Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 12:33 PM
To: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: Problem with use of NotUnderstood in negotiations



This new rule is not necessary. 

Sec. 4.2 says: 

   The constants None, Reject, Irrelevant, and NotUnderstood 
   are reserved and must only be used as described here. 

In the situation you describe, the sender will be expecting 
a response to "keyA", but the key-name was corrupted to "keyB". 

The receiver does not understand "keyB", and so responds with 
"keyB=NotUnderstood". 

To the sender, this appears to be the start of negotiating a 
new key, "keyB", with the value "NotUnderstood".  

But, this is not a valid use of the value "NotUnderstood", 
so it is a protocol error. 

So, the new rule of not-responding to keys with the value 
"NotUnderstood" is not necessary. 

Bart. 

-----Original Message----- 
From: Bill Studenmund [ mailto:wrstuden@wasabisystems.com <mailto:wrstuden@wasabisystems.com> ] 
Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 9:12 AM 
To: ips@ece.cmu.edu 
Subject: Problem with use of NotUnderstood in negotiations 


I encountered a problem with how draft 15 specifies using NotUnderstood as 
a reply to keys that aren't understood. Namely if something injects 
garbage into the negotiation stream we can end up with a key BOTH sides 
don't understand, and so they both sit there sending "foo=NotUnderstood" 
back and forth to each other. 

Yes, well-behaved negotiators won't offer a key they don't understand. But 
the data stream can be corrupted, and all it would take is a single-bit 
error in a key name and we encounter the above. 

I propose we change the text to: 

Any key not understood by the acceptor may be ignored by the acceptor 
without affecting the basic function. However, unless the value for the 
key was "NotUnderstood", the answer for a key not understood MUST be 
key=NotUnderstood. If the value for the key was "NotUnderstood", the 
acceptor MUST not answer the key. 

Note: I can easily see closing the connection with an error in the above 
case too. 

Thoughts? 

Take care, 

Bill 


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<DIV><SPAN class=428494419-09082002><FONT face=Arial 
size=2>Bart,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=428494419-09082002><FONT face=Arial 
size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=428494419-09082002><FONT face=Arial size=2>So the question is, 
in what order does a device do the checking.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=428494419-09082002><FONT face=Arial 
size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=428494419-09082002><FONT face=Arial size=2>There 
are&nbsp;many&nbsp;possibilites for handling a received key that is 
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=428494419-09082002><FONT face=Arial size=2>unknown and comes in 
with the value unknown:</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=428494419-09082002><FONT face=Arial 
size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=428494419-09082002><FONT face=Arial size=2>A) Check 
key</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=428494419-09082002><FONT face=Arial 
size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; if key unknown, send 
key=NotUnderstood</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=428494419-09082002><FONT face=Arial 
size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; else ...process 
key=value pair</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=428494419-09082002><FONT face=Arial 
size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=428494419-09082002><FONT face=Arial size=2>B) Check 
key</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=428494419-09082002><FONT face=Arial 
size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; if key unknown</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=428494419-09082002><FONT face=Arial 
size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; if value=NotUnderstood 
silently drop (or close connection)</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=428494419-09082002><FONT face=Arial 
size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; else send 
key=NotUnderstood</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=428494419-09082002><FONT face=Arial 
size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=428494419-09082002><FONT face=Arial size=2>I expect case A is 
more likely to get implemented in the absence </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=428494419-09082002><FONT face=Arial size=2>of an explicit 
statement. There would normally be no need to </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=428494419-09082002><FONT face=Arial size=2>examine the value of 
a key when one doesn't understand the key.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=428494419-09082002><FONT face=Arial size=2>In this case, the 
receiver never does a test that detects the </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=428494419-09082002><FONT face=Arial size=2>apparent protocol 
violation of making an offer with a value </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=428494419-09082002><FONT face=Arial 
size=2>NotUnderstood.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=428494419-09082002><FONT face=Arial 
size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=428494419-09082002><FONT face=Arial size=2>So, if we want to 
stop the loop that Bill has found, we should </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=428494419-09082002><FONT face=Arial size=2>put in an explicit 
requirement to test the value for NotUnderstood </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=428494419-09082002><FONT face=Arial size=2>before responding to 
a key with NotUnderstood.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=428494419-09082002><FONT face=Arial 
size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=428494419-09082002><FONT face=Arial size=2>The alternative is 
to leave things as they are and count on </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=428494419-09082002><FONT face=Arial size=2>implementations to 
abort the&nbsp;negotiation based on a timeout</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN class=428494419-09082002>or&nbsp;a 
count of excessive number of negotiation PDU 
exchanges.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=428494419-09082002><FONT face=Arial 
size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=428494419-09082002><FONT face=Arial 
size=2>Regards,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=428494419-09082002><FONT face=Arial 
size=2>Pat</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=428494419-09082002><FONT face=Arial 
size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma 
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Bart Crane 
[mailto:bcrane@iready.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, August 09, 2002 12:33 
PM<BR><B>To:</B> ips@ece.cmu.edu<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: Problem with use of 
NotUnderstood in negotiations<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<P><FONT size=2>This new rule is not necessary.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>Sec. 4.2 says:</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp; The constants None, Reject, Irrelevant, and 
NotUnderstood</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp; are reserved and must only be 
used as described here.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>In the situation you describe, the sender will be expecting 
</FONT><BR><FONT size=2>a response to "keyA", but the key-name was corrupted to 
"keyB".</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>The receiver does not understand "keyB", and so responds with 
</FONT><BR><FONT size=2>"keyB=NotUnderstood".</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>To the sender, this appears to be the start of negotiating 
a</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>new key, "keyB", with the value "NotUnderstood".&nbsp; 
</FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=2>But, this is not a valid use of the value "NotUnderstood", 
</FONT><BR><FONT size=2>so it is a protocol error.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>So, the new rule of not-responding to keys with the value 
</FONT><BR><FONT size=2>"NotUnderstood" is not necessary.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>Bart.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>-----Original Message-----</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>From: Bill 
Studenmund [<A 
href="mailto:wrstuden@wasabisystems.com">mailto:wrstuden@wasabisystems.com</A>]</FONT> 
<BR><FONT size=2>Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 9:12 AM</FONT> <BR><FONT 
size=2>To: ips@ece.cmu.edu</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>Subject: Problem with use of 
NotUnderstood in negotiations</FONT> </P><BR>
<P><FONT size=2>I encountered a problem with how draft 15 specifies using 
NotUnderstood as</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>a reply to keys that aren't understood. 
Namely if something injects</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>garbage into the negotiation 
stream we can end up with a key BOTH sides</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>don't 
understand, and so they both sit there sending "foo=NotUnderstood"</FONT> 
<BR><FONT size=2>back and forth to each other.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>Yes, well-behaved negotiators won't offer a key they don't 
understand. But</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>the data stream can be corrupted, and 
all it would take is a single-bit</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>error in a key name 
and we encounter the above.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>I propose we change the text to:</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>Any key not understood by the acceptor may be ignored by the 
acceptor</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>without affecting the basic function. However, 
unless the value for the</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>key was "NotUnderstood", the 
answer for a key not understood MUST be</FONT> <BR><FONT 
size=2>key=NotUnderstood. If the value for the key was "NotUnderstood", 
the</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>acceptor MUST not answer the key.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>Note: I can easily see closing the connection with an error in 
the above</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>case too.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>Thoughts?</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>Take care,</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=2>Bill</FONT> </P></BODY></HTML>

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From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Fri Aug  9 17:13:23 2002
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From: Bill Studenmund <wrstuden@wasabisystems.com>
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Has anyone implemented it? If so, please contact me off-list.

Take care,

Bill



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From: Bart Crane <bcrane@iready.com>
To: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: Problem with use of NotUnderstood in negotiations
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-----Original Message-----
From: pat_thaler@agilent.com [mailto:pat_thaler@agilent.com]
Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 1:05 PM
To: bcrane@iready.com; ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: Problem with use of NotUnderstood in negotiations


Bart,
 
So the question is, in what order does a device do the checking.
 
There are many possibilites for handling a received key that is 
unknown and comes in with the value unknown:
 
A) Check key
       if key unknown, send key=NotUnderstood
         else ...process key=value pair
 
B) Check key
       if key unknown
         if value=NotUnderstood silently drop (or close connection)
           else send key=NotUnderstood
 
I expect case A is more likely to get implemented in the absence 
of an explicit statement. There would normally be no need to 
examine the value of a key when one doesn't understand the key.
In this case, the receiver never does a test that detects the 
apparent protocol violation of making an offer with a value 
NotUnderstood.
 
So, if we want to stop the loop that Bill has found, we should 
put in an explicit requirement to test the value for NotUnderstood 
before responding to a key with NotUnderstood.

[Bart Crane] 
Sec. 4.2 stating that "None", "Reject", "Irrelevant" and "NotUnderstood"
are reserved implies that they do need to be tested.  The proposed
rule also implies that they be tested.
 
My interpretation is that these values must not be used, except in
the way that the spec defines their use.
 
The spec defines their use ONLY as a response to an iSCSI-defined key.
 
So, their being used as the initial value to any key is prohibited.
 
Thus, there is no need to add another rule regarding not-responding to
keys with NotUnderstood as a value, because a key with that value is
a protocol error.
 
This could be made more explicit, but there does not seem to be any
ambiguity.
 
Bart.
 
The alternative is to leave things as they are and count on 
implementations to abort the negotiation based on a timeout
or a count of excessive number of negotiation PDU exchanges.
 
Regards,
Pat
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Bart Crane [mailto:bcrane@iready.com]
Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 12:33 PM
To: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: Problem with use of NotUnderstood in negotiations



This new rule is not necessary. 

Sec. 4.2 says: 

   The constants None, Reject, Irrelevant, and NotUnderstood 
   are reserved and must only be used as described here. 

In the situation you describe, the sender will be expecting 
a response to "keyA", but the key-name was corrupted to "keyB". 

The receiver does not understand "keyB", and so responds with 
"keyB=NotUnderstood". 

To the sender, this appears to be the start of negotiating a 
new key, "keyB", with the value "NotUnderstood".  

But, this is not a valid use of the value "NotUnderstood", 
so it is a protocol error. 

So, the new rule of not-responding to keys with the value 
"NotUnderstood" is not necessary. 

Bart. 

-----Original Message----- 
From: Bill Studenmund [ mailto:wrstuden@wasabisystems.com
<mailto:wrstuden@wasabisystems.com> ] 
Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 9:12 AM 
To: ips@ece.cmu.edu 
Subject: Problem with use of NotUnderstood in negotiations 


I encountered a problem with how draft 15 specifies using NotUnderstood as 
a reply to keys that aren't understood. Namely if something injects 
garbage into the negotiation stream we can end up with a key BOTH sides 
don't understand, and so they both sit there sending "foo=NotUnderstood" 
back and forth to each other. 

Yes, well-behaved negotiators won't offer a key they don't understand. But 
the data stream can be corrupted, and all it would take is a single-bit 
error in a key name and we encounter the above. 

I propose we change the text to: 

Any key not understood by the acceptor may be ignored by the acceptor 
without affecting the basic function. However, unless the value for the 
key was "NotUnderstood", the answer for a key not understood MUST be 
key=NotUnderstood. If the value for the key was "NotUnderstood", the 
acceptor MUST not answer the key. 

Note: I can easily see closing the connection with an error in the above 
case too. 

Thoughts? 

Take care, 

Bill 


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<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV align=left class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr><FONT face=Tahoma 
  size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> pat_thaler@agilent.com 
  [mailto:pat_thaler@agilent.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, August 09, 2002 1:05 
  PM<BR><B>To:</B> bcrane@iready.com; ips@ece.cmu.edu<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: 
  Problem with use of NotUnderstood in negotiations<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
  <DIV><SPAN class=428494419-09082002><FONT face=Arial 
  size=2>Bart,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=428494419-09082002><FONT face=Arial 
  size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=428494419-09082002><FONT face=Arial size=2>So the question 
  is, in what order does a device do the checking.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=428494419-09082002><FONT face=Arial 
  size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=428494419-09082002><FONT face=Arial size=2>There 
  are&nbsp;many&nbsp;possibilites for handling a received key that is 
  </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=428494419-09082002><FONT face=Arial size=2>unknown and comes 
  in with the value unknown:</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=428494419-09082002><FONT face=Arial 
  size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=428494419-09082002><FONT face=Arial size=2>A) Check 
  key</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=428494419-09082002><FONT face=Arial 
  size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; if key unknown, send 
  key=NotUnderstood</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=428494419-09082002><FONT face=Arial 
  size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; else ...process 
  key=value pair</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=428494419-09082002><FONT face=Arial 
  size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=428494419-09082002><FONT face=Arial size=2>B) Check 
  key</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=428494419-09082002><FONT face=Arial 
  size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; if key unknown</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=428494419-09082002><FONT face=Arial 
  size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; if value=NotUnderstood 
  silently drop (or close connection)</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=428494419-09082002><FONT face=Arial 
  size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; else send 
  key=NotUnderstood</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=428494419-09082002><FONT face=Arial 
  size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=428494419-09082002><FONT face=Arial size=2>I expect case A is 
  more likely to get implemented in the absence </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=428494419-09082002><FONT face=Arial size=2>of an explicit 
  statement. There would normally be no need to </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=428494419-09082002><FONT face=Arial size=2>examine the value 
  of a key when one doesn't understand the key.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=428494419-09082002><FONT face=Arial size=2>In this case, the 
  receiver never does a test that detects the </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=428494419-09082002><FONT face=Arial size=2>apparent protocol 
  violation of making an offer with a value </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=428494419-09082002><FONT face=Arial 
  size=2>NotUnderstood.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=428494419-09082002><FONT face=Arial 
  size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=428494419-09082002><FONT face=Arial size=2>So, if we want to 
  stop the loop that Bill has found, we should </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=428494419-09082002><FONT face=Arial size=2>put in an explicit 
  requirement to test the value for NotUnderstood </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=2><FONT face=Arial><SPAN class=428494419-09082002>before 
  responding to a key with NotUnderstood.<BR><FONT color=#0000ff><SPAN 
  class=343142820-09082002></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=2><FONT face=Arial><SPAN class=428494419-09082002><FONT 
  color=#0000ff><SPAN class=343142820-09082002>[Bart 
  Crane]&nbsp;</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=2><FONT face=Arial><SPAN class=428494419-09082002><FONT 
  color=#0000ff><SPAN class=343142820-09082002>Sec. 4.2 stating that "None", 
  "Reject", "Irrelevant" and 
  "NotUnderstood"</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=2><FONT face=Arial><SPAN class=428494419-09082002><FONT 
  color=#0000ff><SPAN class=343142820-09082002>are reserved implies that they do 
  need to be tested.&nbsp; The proposed</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=2><FONT face=Arial><SPAN class=428494419-09082002><FONT 
  color=#0000ff><SPAN class=343142820-09082002>rule also implies that they be 
  tested.</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=2><FONT face=Arial><SPAN class=428494419-09082002><FONT 
  color=#0000ff><SPAN 
  class=343142820-09082002></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=343142820-09082002>My 
  interpretation is that these values&nbsp;must not be used, except 
  in</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=343142820-09082002>the 
  way that the spec defines their use.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
  class=343142820-09082002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=343142820-09082002>The 
  spec defines their use ONLY as a response to an iSCSI-defined 
  key.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
  class=343142820-09082002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=343142820-09082002>So, 
  their being used as the initial value to any key&nbsp;is 
  prohibited.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
  class=343142820-09082002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
  class=343142820-09082002>Thus, there is no need to add another rule regarding 
  not-responding to</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=343142820-09082002>keys 
  with NotUnderstood as a value, because a key with that value 
  is</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=343142820-09082002>a 
  protocol error.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
  class=343142820-09082002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=343142820-09082002>This 
  could be made more explicit, but there does not seem to be 
  any</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
  class=343142820-09082002>ambiguity.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
  class=343142820-09082002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
  class=343142820-09082002>Bart.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=2><FONT face=Arial><SPAN class=428494419-09082002><FONT 
  color=#0000ff><SPAN 
  class=343142820-09082002></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=428494419-09082002><FONT face=Arial size=2>The alternative is 
  to leave things as they are and count on </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=428494419-09082002><FONT face=Arial size=2>implementations to 
  abort the&nbsp;negotiation based on a timeout</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN class=428494419-09082002>or&nbsp;a 
  count of excessive number of negotiation PDU 
  exchanges.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=428494419-09082002><FONT face=Arial 
  size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=428494419-09082002><FONT face=Arial 
  size=2>Regards,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=428494419-09082002><FONT face=Arial 
  size=2>Pat</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=428494419-09082002><FONT face=Arial 
  size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV align=left class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr><FONT face=Tahoma 
  size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Bart Crane 
  [mailto:bcrane@iready.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, August 09, 2002 12:33 
  PM<BR><B>To:</B> ips@ece.cmu.edu<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: Problem with use of 
  NotUnderstood in negotiations<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
  <P><FONT size=2>This new rule is not necessary.</FONT> </P>
  <P><FONT size=2>Sec. 4.2 says:</FONT> </P>
  <P><FONT size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp; The constants None, Reject, Irrelevant, and 
  NotUnderstood</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp; are reserved and must only 
  be used as described here.</FONT> </P>
  <P><FONT size=2>In the situation you describe, the sender will be expecting 
  </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>a response to "keyA", but the key-name was corrupted 
  to "keyB".</FONT> </P>
  <P><FONT size=2>The receiver does not understand "keyB", and so responds with 
  </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>"keyB=NotUnderstood".</FONT> </P>
  <P><FONT size=2>To the sender, this appears to be the start of negotiating 
  a</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>new key, "keyB", with the value 
  "NotUnderstood".&nbsp; </FONT></P>
  <P><FONT size=2>But, this is not a valid use of the value "NotUnderstood", 
  </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>so it is a protocol error.</FONT> </P>
  <P><FONT size=2>So, the new rule of not-responding to keys with the value 
  </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>"NotUnderstood" is not necessary.</FONT> </P>
  <P><FONT size=2>Bart.</FONT> </P>
  <P><FONT size=2>-----Original Message-----</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>From: Bill 
  Studenmund [<A 
  href="mailto:wrstuden@wasabisystems.com">mailto:wrstuden@wasabisystems.com</A>]</FONT> 
  <BR><FONT size=2>Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 9:12 AM</FONT> <BR><FONT 
  size=2>To: ips@ece.cmu.edu</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>Subject: Problem with use 
  of NotUnderstood in negotiations</FONT> </P><BR>
  <P><FONT size=2>I encountered a problem with how draft 15 specifies using 
  NotUnderstood as</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>a reply to keys that aren't 
  understood. Namely if something injects</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>garbage into 
  the negotiation stream we can end up with a key BOTH sides</FONT> <BR><FONT 
  size=2>don't understand, and so they both sit there sending 
  "foo=NotUnderstood"</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>back and forth to each 
  other.</FONT> </P>
  <P><FONT size=2>Yes, well-behaved negotiators won't offer a key they don't 
  understand. But</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>the data stream can be corrupted, and 
  all it would take is a single-bit</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>error in a key name 
  and we encounter the above.</FONT> </P>
  <P><FONT size=2>I propose we change the text to:</FONT> </P>
  <P><FONT size=2>Any key not understood by the acceptor may be ignored by the 
  acceptor</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>without affecting the basic function. 
  However, unless the value for the</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>key was 
  "NotUnderstood", the answer for a key not understood MUST be</FONT> <BR><FONT 
  size=2>key=NotUnderstood. If the value for the key was "NotUnderstood", 
  the</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>acceptor MUST not answer the key.</FONT> </P>
  <P><FONT size=2>Note: I can easily see closing the connection with an error in 
  the above</FONT> <BR><FONT size=2>case too.</FONT> </P>
  <P><FONT size=2>Thoughts?</FONT> </P>
  <P><FONT size=2>Take care,</FONT> </P>
  <P><FONT size=2>Bill</FONT> </P></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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To: pat_thaler@agilent.com
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu, owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu, pat_thaler@agilent.com,
        pkoning@equallogic.com, Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com
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Subject: RE: iSCSI question
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it is alredy in - julo




pat_thaler@agilent.com
Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
08/09/2002 08:10 PM

 
        To:     Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com, pat_thaler@agilent.com, 
pkoning@equallogic.com
        cc:     ips@ece.cmu.edu
        Subject:        RE: iSCSI question

 

Shaharam,

I agree that the table by itself is not clear, but that the text of the 
section clearly states things. That is why I suggested a change to that 
table:

  +-------------------+--------------------------------------------+
  |ErrorRecoveryLevel |  Associated Error recovery capabilities    |
  +-------------------+--------------------------------------------+
  |        0          |  Session recovery class                    |
  |                   |  (Section 5.14.4 Session Recovery)         |
  +-------------------+--------------------------------------------+
  |        1          |  Digest failure recovery (See Note below.) |
  |                   |  plus all ErrorRecoverLevel 0 capabilities | 
  +-------------------+--------------------------------------------+
  |        2          |  Connection recovery class                 |
  |                   |  (Section 5.14.3 Connection Recovery)      | 
  |                   |  plus all ErrorRecoverLevel 1 capabilities |
  +-------------------+--------------------------------------------+

Pat


-----Original Message-----
From: Shahram Davari [mailto:Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com]
Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 6:48 AM
To: 'pat_thaler@agilent.com'; pkoning@equallogic.com
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: iSCSI question


Pat,

Thanks for your excellent description. I now fully understand the
issue.

However, I disagree that the text is clear on the difference between
error recover classes and error recovery levels. As a proof, look at 
figure 2, in section 5.15:

  +-------------------+--------------------------------------------+
  |ErrorRecoveryLevel |  Associated Error recovery capabilities    |
  +-------------------+--------------------------------------------+
  |        0          |  Session recovery class                    |
  |                   |  (Section 5.14.4 Session Recovery)         |
  +-------------------+--------------------------------------------+
  |        1          |  Digest failure recovery (See Note below.) |
  +-------------------+--------------------------------------------+
  |        2          |  Connection recovery class                 |
  |                   |  (Section 5.14.3 Connection Recovery)      | 
  +-------------------+--------------------------------------------+

In which, each recovery level is associated with only one recovery class.


Yours,
-Shahram

> -----Original Message-----
> From: pat_thaler@agilent.com [mailto:pat_thaler@agilent.com]
> Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 5:58 PM
> To: Shahram Davari; pkoning@equallogic.com
> Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu
> Subject: RE: iSCSI question
> 
> 
> Shahram,
> 
> There are two recovery heirarchies. You seem to be confusing 
> error recovery level with error recovery class.
> 
> One is the heirarchy for implementation requirements. With 3 
> forms of recovery, there are 8 possible combinations but to 
> simplify interoperability and to specify minimum acceptable 
> operation, we don't want to allow all eight. Session 
> qualifies two ways to be level 0 of this heirarchy - it is 
> simplest to implement and it should be able to recover from 
> any recoverable error. 
> 
> Note that these are the error recovery levels that are 
> described in 5.15. A sessions recovery level indicates the 
> set of recovery classes it is capable of using. The recovery 
> levels are defined such that a lower recovery level includes 
> a subset of the recovery classes available at a higher recovery level.
> 
> The other heirarchy is the order in which the available 
> classes are applied once an error occurs. This is the subject 
> of 5.14. The classes are disjoint. 
> 
> Once an error occurs, the device will choose an error 
> recovery class from the set of recovery classes in its 
> recovery level. If that recovery class fails, it may try the 
> next higher class.
> 
> Error recovery level 0 includes the Session recovery class.
> Error recovery level 1 includes the two classes useful for 
> Digest failure recovery (Within-Command and 
> Within-Connection) plus the Session recovery class from level 0.
> Error recovery level 2 includes  Connection recovery class 
> plus the classes included in level 1. 
> 
> I think the text already makes this clear and the pyramid 
> correctly represents this, but perhaps the chart below the 
> period could add "plus the capablilities of 
> ErrorRecoveryLevel n" to the boxes for Associated Error 
> recovery capablities for levels 1 and 2 ("n" = 0 and 1, respectively).
> 
> I hope this helps remove some of the confusion.
> 
> Pat
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Shahram Davari [mailto:Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com]
> Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 2:22 PM
> To: 'Paul Koning'
> Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu
> Subject: RE: iSCSI question
> 
> 
> Paul,
> 
> 
> > But that's not what "hierarchy" refers to here.
> > 
> > The hierarchy is one of increased capability, not increased
> > desperation.  Session recovery is the minimum required; the 
> additional
> > levels are optional capabilities in addition to the minimum.  Each
> > higher level in the hierarchy is a superset of the one below.
> 
> It all depends on the definition of these recovery classes.
> 
> 1) If they are defined in a superset/subset fashion, then I agree
> that level of complexity increases as: Session->PDU->connection.
> Then I suggest changing texts in other parts of the draft such as
> section 5.14 to indicate that if you have the capabilities of
> class X, then you don't need to escalate to lower classes, because
> class X already has those capabilities itself. Also I suggest
> changing the hierarchy figure as following:
> 
> 
>                              +
>                             / \
>                            / 2 \ 
>                           +-----+
>                          /  1,2  \ 
>                         +---------+
>                        /   0,1,2   \ 
>                       +-------------+
> 
> 
> 2) If they are defined as disjoint classes, then the hierarchy for
> complexity makes no sense. Rather you need a hierarchy for escalation
> or transition.
> 
> 
> Based on the emails that I have received so far it seems that 
> the intent is the former definition.
> 
> Yours,
> -Shahram 
> 



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<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">it is alredy in - julo</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>pat_thaler@agilent.com</b></font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu</font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">08/09/2002 08:10 PM</font>
<br>
<td><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com, pat_thaler@agilent.com, pkoning@equallogic.com</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;ips@ece.cmu.edu</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;RE: iSCSI question</font>
<br>
<br><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font></table>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">Shaharam,<br>
<br>
I agree that the table by itself is not clear, but that the text of the section clearly states things. That is why I suggested a change to that table:<br>
<br>
 &nbsp;+-------------------+--------------------------------------------+<br>
 &nbsp;|ErrorRecoveryLevel | &nbsp;Associated Error recovery capabilities &nbsp; &nbsp;|<br>
 &nbsp;+-------------------+--------------------------------------------+<br>
 &nbsp;| &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;0 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;| &nbsp;Session recovery class &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;|<br>
 &nbsp;| &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; | &nbsp;(Section 5.14.4 Session Recovery) &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; |<br>
 &nbsp;+-------------------+--------------------------------------------+<br>
 &nbsp;| &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;1 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;| &nbsp;Digest failure recovery (See Note below.) |<br>
 &nbsp;| &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; | &nbsp;plus all ErrorRecoverLevel 0 capabilities | &nbsp;<br>
 &nbsp;+-------------------+--------------------------------------------+<br>
 &nbsp;| &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;2 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;| &nbsp;Connection recovery class &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; |<br>
 &nbsp;| &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; | &nbsp;(Section 5.14.3 Connection Recovery) &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;| <br>
 &nbsp;| &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; | &nbsp;plus all ErrorRecoverLevel 1 capabilities |<br>
 &nbsp;+-------------------+--------------------------------------------+<br>
<br>
Pat<br>
<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Shahram Davari [mailto:Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com]<br>
Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 6:48 AM<br>
To: 'pat_thaler@agilent.com'; pkoning@equallogic.com<br>
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu<br>
Subject: RE: iSCSI question<br>
<br>
<br>
Pat,<br>
<br>
Thanks for your excellent description. I now fully understand the<br>
issue.<br>
<br>
However, I disagree that the text is clear on the difference between<br>
error recover classes and error recovery levels. As a proof, look at figure 2, in section 5.15:<br>
<br>
 &nbsp;+-------------------+--------------------------------------------+<br>
 &nbsp;|ErrorRecoveryLevel | &nbsp;Associated Error recovery capabilities &nbsp; &nbsp;|<br>
 &nbsp;+-------------------+--------------------------------------------+<br>
 &nbsp;| &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;0 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;| &nbsp;Session recovery class &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;|<br>
 &nbsp;| &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; | &nbsp;(Section 5.14.4 Session Recovery) &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; |<br>
 &nbsp;+-------------------+--------------------------------------------+<br>
 &nbsp;| &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;1 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;| &nbsp;Digest failure recovery (See Note below.) |<br>
 &nbsp;+-------------------+--------------------------------------------+<br>
 &nbsp;| &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;2 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;| &nbsp;Connection recovery class &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; |<br>
 &nbsp;| &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; | &nbsp;(Section 5.14.3 Connection Recovery) &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;| <br>
 &nbsp;+-------------------+--------------------------------------------+<br>
<br>
In which, each recovery level is associated with only one recovery class.<br>
<br>
<br>
Yours,<br>
-Shahram<br>
<br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: pat_thaler@agilent.com [mailto:pat_thaler@agilent.com]<br>
&gt; Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 5:58 PM<br>
&gt; To: Shahram Davari; pkoning@equallogic.com<br>
&gt; Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu<br>
&gt; Subject: RE: iSCSI question<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Shahram,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; There are two recovery heirarchies. You seem to be confusing <br>
&gt; error recovery level with error recovery class.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; One is the heirarchy for implementation requirements. With 3 <br>
&gt; forms of recovery, there are 8 possible combinations but to <br>
&gt; simplify interoperability and to specify minimum acceptable <br>
&gt; operation, we don't want to allow all eight. Session <br>
&gt; qualifies two ways to be level 0 of this heirarchy - it is <br>
&gt; simplest to implement and it should be able to recover from <br>
&gt; any recoverable error. <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Note that these are the error recovery levels that are <br>
&gt; described in 5.15. A sessions recovery level indicates the </font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">&gt; set of recovery classes it is capable of using. The recovery <br>
&gt; levels are defined such that a lower recovery level includes <br>
&gt; a subset of the recovery classes available at a higher recovery level.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; The other heirarchy is the order in which the available <br>
&gt; classes are applied once an error occurs. This is the subject <br>
&gt; of 5.14. The classes are disjoint. <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Once an error occurs, the device will choose an error <br>
&gt; recovery class from the set of recovery classes in its <br>
&gt; recovery level. If that recovery class fails, it may try the <br>
&gt; next higher class.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Error recovery level 0 includes the Session recovery class.<br>
&gt; Error recovery level 1 includes the two classes useful for &nbsp;<br>
&gt; Digest failure recovery (Within-Command and <br>
&gt; Within-Connection) plus the Session recovery class from level 0.<br>
&gt; Error recovery level 2 includes &nbsp;Connection recovery class <br>
&gt; plus the classes included in level 1. <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; I think the text already makes this clear and the pyramid <br>
&gt; correctly represents this, but perhaps the chart below the <br>
&gt; period could add &quot;plus the capablilities of <br>
&gt; ErrorRecoveryLevel n&quot; to the boxes for Associated Error <br>
&gt; recovery capablities for levels 1 and 2 (&quot;n&quot; = 0 and 1, respectively).<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; I hope this helps remove some of the confusion.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Pat<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: Shahram Davari [mailto:Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com]<br>
&gt; Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 2:22 PM<br>
&gt; To: 'Paul Koning'<br>
&gt; Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu<br>
&gt; Subject: RE: iSCSI question<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Paul,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; But that's not what &quot;hierarchy&quot; refers to here.<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; The hierarchy is one of increased capability, not increased<br>
&gt; &gt; desperation. &nbsp;Session recovery is the minimum required; the <br>
&gt; additional<br>
&gt; &gt; levels are optional capabilities in addition to the minimum. &nbsp;Each<br>
&gt; &gt; higher level in the hierarchy is a superset of the one below.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; It all depends on the definition of these recovery classes.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; 1) If they are defined in a superset/subset fashion, then I agree<br>
&gt; that level of complexity increases as: Session-&gt;PDU-&gt;connection.<br>
&gt; Then I suggest changing texts in other parts of the draft such as<br>
&gt; section 5.14 to indicate that if you have the capabilities of<br>
&gt; class X, then you don't need to escalate to lower classes, because<br>
&gt; class X already has those capabilities itself. Also I suggest<br>
&gt; changing the hierarchy figure as following:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;+<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; / \<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;/ 2 \ &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +-----+<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;/ &nbsp;1,2 &nbsp;\ &nbsp; &nbsp; <br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +---------+<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;/ &nbsp; 0,1,2 &nbsp; \ &nbsp; <br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +-------------+<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; 2) If they are defined as disjoint classes, then the hierarchy for<br>
&gt; complexity makes no sense. Rather you need a hierarchy for escalation<br>
&gt; or transition.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Based on the emails that I have received so far it seems that <br>
&gt; the intent is the former definition.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Yours,<br>
&gt; -Shahram <br>
&gt; <br>
</font>
<br>
<br>
--=_alternative 006B57D4C2256C10_=--


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Fri Aug  9 18:23:14 2002
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CC: Black_David@emc.com, ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: iSCSI: Check Condition and Residuals
References: <277DD60FB639D511AC0400B0D068B71E064435AA@CORPMX14> <3D53CD9A.5B075DC7@splentec.com> <3D540D5B.6FAFF5F3@cup.hp.com> <3D541BEA.36B19692@splentec.com> <3D542279.32EE31E7@cup.hp.com>
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Santosh Rao wrote:
> 
> It sounds to me like there is a mis-understanding here on who owns the
> "RESID" field.
> 
> FCP-2 makes it clear that it is the FCP-2 SCSI LLP in the target that
> should initialize this field based on FCP_DL and its state information
> on the bytes transferred. IOW, this is a field owned by the scsi
> transport and should be initialized/computed by the scsi transport. (See
> FCP-2 Rev 07a Section 9.4.8).

Saying ``owned by the scsi transport'' is incomplete. A number of players
may be interested in the residual count and can take action appropriately.
From the transport to the user app initiating the IO.

That is, residuals are not ``transport-exclusive''.

And so, iSCSI does the right thing by providing _mechanism_ to report
them, should there be any reported by the players underneath the
iSCSI Target.

But going as far as what you're suggesting may be too restrictive.
On top of that I don't see any problems with the way FCP-2 puts it.
As I said before we're at par with it.

> It sounds like folks here are assuming the the SCSI device server is
> going to provide this information to the iSCSI LLP layer in the target
> and the iscsi target layer would then copy this information into the
> Response PDU.

There is quite a few things you have to communicate _with_ BEFORE you get
to talk to the actual SCSI device server. _Anyone_ of those can set a residual
for any number of things. (See my original reply-post on residuals
in the thread ``Re: iSCSI: plugfest4 issues'' dated 
Tue, 30 Jul 2002 23:54:49 -0400.)
 
> It is upto the iSCSI layer to initialize the RESID field anytime a data
> underflow or overflow condition occurs.

Yes.

> Perhaps, the RESID field
> definition should provide guidelines on how the iscsi target layer
> should compute the RESID, as is done by FCP-2 Section 9.4.8.

iSCSI does specify enough. Nothing is needed. Matter closed.

-- 
Luben


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Fri Aug  9 20:01:20 2002
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From: Bill Studenmund <wrstuden@wasabisystems.com>
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To: Bart Crane <bcrane@iready.com>
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Subject: RE: Problem with use of NotUnderstood in negotiations
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On Fri, 9 Aug 2002, Bart Crane wrote:

> -----Original Message-----
> From: pat_thaler@agilent.com [mailto:pat_thaler@agilent.com]
> Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 1:05 PM
> To: bcrane@iready.com; ips@ece.cmu.edu
> Subject: RE: Problem with use of NotUnderstood in negotiations
>
>
> Bart,
>
> So the question is, in what order does a device do the checking.
>
> There are many possibilites for handling a received key that is
> unknown and comes in with the value unknown:
>
> A) Check key
>        if key unknown, send key=NotUnderstood
>          else ...process key=value pair
>
> B) Check key
>        if key unknown
>          if value=NotUnderstood silently drop (or close connection)
>            else send key=NotUnderstood
>
> I expect case A is more likely to get implemented in the absence
> of an explicit statement. There would normally be no need to
> examine the value of a key when one doesn't understand the key.
> In this case, the receiver never does a test that detects the
> apparent protocol violation of making an offer with a value
> NotUnderstood.
>
> So, if we want to stop the loop that Bill has found, we should
> put in an explicit requirement to test the value for NotUnderstood
> before responding to a key with NotUnderstood.
>
> [Bart Crane]
> Sec. 4.2 stating that "None", "Reject", "Irrelevant" and "NotUnderstood"
> are reserved implies that they do need to be tested.  The proposed
> rule also implies that they be tested.
>
> My interpretation is that these values must not be used, except in
> the way that the spec defines their use.
>
> The spec defines their use ONLY as a response to an iSCSI-defined key.

The problem is that we're actually discussing what to do with an
iSCSI-undefined key.

The spec seems to assume (quite reasonably) that keys one side doesn't
understand are there because the other side offered them and thus the
other side understands them. By just sending back "NotUnderstood",
negotiations can experiment some to see what keys are available.

This is a case where neither side understands the key.

> So, their being used as the initial value to any key is prohibited.

?? In the scenario I describe, neither side believes it offered the key.

> Thus, there is no need to add another rule regarding not-responding to
> keys with NotUnderstood as a value, because a key with that value is
> a protocol error.
>
> This could be made more explicit, but there does not seem to be any
> ambiguity.

There obviously is ambiguity. The fact we're having this discussion is
proof. :-)

I'd support saying this case is a protocol error, since it means something
neither side understands got into the stream (and chances are an offer got
removed). But I think adding an explicit direction as to what to do is
needed.

Take care,

Bill



From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Sat Aug 10 01:25:40 2002
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Subject: RE: Problem with use of NotUnderstood in negotiations
To: ips@ece.cmu.edu
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Pat,

The current text is explicit in restricting the use of the special values
NotUnderstood, Reject etc.

Julo



                                                                                                                                    
                      pat_thaler@agilen                                                                                             
                      t.com                    To:       bcrane@iready.com, ips@ece.cmu.edu                                         
                      Sent by:                 cc:                                                                                  
                      owner-ips@ece.cmu        Subject:  RE: Problem with use of NotUnderstood in negotiations                      
                      .edu                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                    
                      08/09/2002 11:04                                                                                              
                      PM                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                    



Bart,

So the question is, in what order does a device do the checking.

There are many possibilites for handling a received key that is
unknown and comes in with the value unknown:

A) Check key
       if key unknown, send key=NotUnderstood
         else ...process key=value pair

B) Check key
       if key unknown
         if value=NotUnderstood silently drop (or close connection)
           else send key=NotUnderstood

I expect case A is more likely to get implemented in the absence
of an explicit statement. There would normally be no need to
examine the value of a key when one doesn't understand the key.
In this case, the receiver never does a test that detects the
apparent protocol violation of making an offer with a value
NotUnderstood.

So, if we want to stop the loop that Bill has found, we should
put in an explicit requirement to test the value for NotUnderstood
before responding to a key with NotUnderstood.

The alternative is to leave things as they are and count on
implementations to abort the negotiation based on a timeout
or a count of excessive number of negotiation PDU exchanges.

Regards,
Pat

-----Original Message-----
From: Bart Crane [mailto:bcrane@iready.com]
Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 12:33 PM
To: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: Problem with use of NotUnderstood in negotiations



This new rule is not necessary.


Sec. 4.2 says:


   The constants None, Reject, Irrelevant, and NotUnderstood
   are reserved and must only be used as described here.


In the situation you describe, the sender will be expecting
a response to "keyA", but the key-name was corrupted to "keyB".


The receiver does not understand "keyB", and so responds with
"keyB=NotUnderstood".


To the sender, this appears to be the start of negotiating a
new key, "keyB", with the value "NotUnderstood".


But, this is not a valid use of the value "NotUnderstood",
so it is a protocol error.


So, the new rule of not-responding to keys with the value
"NotUnderstood" is not necessary.


Bart.


-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Studenmund [mailto:wrstuden@wasabisystems.com]
Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 9:12 AM
To: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: Problem with use of NotUnderstood in negotiations





I encountered a problem with how draft 15 specifies using NotUnderstood as
a reply to keys that aren't understood. Namely if something injects
garbage into the negotiation stream we can end up with a key BOTH sides
don't understand, and so they both sit there sending "foo=NotUnderstood"
back and forth to each other.


Yes, well-behaved negotiators won't offer a key they don't understand. But
the data stream can be corrupted, and all it would take is a single-bit
error in a key name and we encounter the above.


I propose we change the text to:


Any key not understood by the acceptor may be ignored by the acceptor
without affecting the basic function. However, unless the value for the
key was "NotUnderstood", the answer for a key not understood MUST be
key=NotUnderstood. If the value for the key was "NotUnderstood", the
acceptor MUST not answer the key.


Note: I can easily see closing the connection with an error in the above
case too.


Thoughts?


Take care,


Bill









From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Sat Aug 10 01:28:19 2002
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Subject: RE: Problem with use of NotUnderstood in negotiations
To: ips@ece.cmu.edu
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Bill,

Perhaps the text is unabiguos but you just ignored the text that forbids
it.
The use of Notunderstood is limited to responses. Using it as you suggest
is a protocol error.
A repeated use will also violate the "no renegotiation rule".

Julo




                                                                                                                                    
                      Bill Studenmund                                                                                               
                      <wrstuden@wasabis        To:       Bart Crane <bcrane@iready.com>                                             
                      ystems.com>              cc:       <ips@ece.cmu.edu>                                                          
                      Sent by:                 Subject:  RE: Problem with use of NotUnderstood in negotiations                      
                      owner-ips@ece.cmu                                                                                             
                      .edu                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                    
                      08/10/2002 02:22                                                                                              
                      AM                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                    



On Fri, 9 Aug 2002, Bart Crane wrote:

?? In the scenario I describe, neither side believes it offered the key.

> Thus, there is no need to add another rule regarding not-responding to
> keys with NotUnderstood as a value, because a key with that value is
> a protocol error.
>
> This could be made more explicit, but there does not seem to be any
> ambiguity.

There obviously is ambiguity. The fact we're having this discussion is
proof. :-)

I'd support saying this case is a protocol error, since it means something
neither side understands got into the stream (and chances are an offer got
removed). But I think adding an explicit direction as to what to do is
needed.

Take care,

Bill







From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Sat Aug 10 15:43:30 2002
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Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 13:49:38 -0500
Message-Id: <200208101849.g7AIncmE013733@sm12.texas.rr.com>
From: hafner <hafner@almaden.ibm.com>
To: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: W32.Elkern  removal tools
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
	boundary=M128O832622827o
Sender: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
Precedence: bulk

--M128O832622827o
Content-Type: text/html;
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<HTML><HEAD></HEAD><BODY>

<FONT>Trendmicro give you the W32.Elkern  removal tools<br>
W32.Elkern  is a  dangerous virus that can infect on Win98/Me/2000/XP.<br>
<br>
For more information,please visit http://www.Trendmicro.com</FONT></BODY></HTML>

--M128O832622827o
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From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Sat Aug 10 23:49:16 2002
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Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 20:11:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: Bill Studenmund <wrstuden@wasabisystems.com>
X-X-Sender:  <wrstuden@candlekeep.home-net.internetconnect.net>
To: Julian Satran <Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com>
Cc: <ips@ece.cmu.edu>
Subject: RE: Problem with use of NotUnderstood in negotiations
In-Reply-To: <OF5A9EC385.38AF937F-ONC2256C11.0017AC4C@telaviv.ibm.com>
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On Sat, 10 Aug 2002, Julian Satran wrote:

> Bill,
>
> Perhaps the text is unabiguos but you just ignored the text that forbids
> it.

Julian,

I must say that the tone above is very unbecoming of the author of a
protocol spec. In the past, I've often gotten snippy comments from you,
but written them off to, well, I'm not sure what. But it seems that you
really don't listen to what I say. You read a message, make an
interpretation, do not question that interpretation, and then you run with
it. That's really bad. Besides being quite rude and exceedingly arrogant,
you'll miss things. And the iSCSI spec will suffer for it. Do you think
whatever is going on between us worth more than a bad iSCSI spec? I don't.

Also, if you're going to say that the text is unambiguous, please quote
said text. That makes the discussion much clearer.

> The use of Notunderstood is limited to responses. Using it as you suggest
> is a protocol error.

Julian, I have to ask, what exactly do you think I'm suggesting? From
parsing your sentence, I read that you are telling me that I'm suggesting
using NotUnderstood outside its limited scope, of responses.

As I understand the situation I described, both parties think they are
using NotUnderstood as a response. How is using it as a response outside
its use as a response?

> A repeated use will also violate the "no renegotiation rule".

Please be VERY VERY VERY careful when saying that. Have you thought about
what the statement you just made will imply?

We are (or at least I started) talking about the case where one side
THOUGHT it sent key X, but somehow it was key Y that made it to the other
side. Be it a bug in the code on one side or the other, a PCI bus error in
transfer, a router glitch, or what. Key Y doesn't exist in the spec, and
it's in the negotiation stream. OGMarker or DataPDPInOrder would be
examples.

The point is, BOTH SIDES THINK THEY ARE RESPONDING to a key they don't
understand. Reading the spec, it succinctly states if you get a key you
don't understand, you MUST reply "NotUnderstood".

Getting back to the "repeated use is a protocol violation," how is each
side supposed to realize that they are seeing "OGMarker=NotUnderstood" for
the second time, other than by remembering that it saw OGMarker as a
not-understood key. i.e. by in addition to replying, "NotUnderstood", each
side has to remember that it responded NotUnderstood to key foo. That
seems unwise. I can think of at least one DoS attack if that really is
what implementations do.

Getting back to addressing the topic of the thread, what is wrong with
this text, slightly modified from the I proposed in the first message?

***
Any key not understood by the acceptor may be ignored by the acceptor
without affecting the basic function. However, unless the value for the
key was "NotUnderstood", the answer for a key not understood MUST be
key=NotUnderstood. The value "NotUnderstood" for a key not understood MUST
be considered a protocol violation.
***

As I said before, my main interest is the spec point out that if for a key
you don't understand you get the value "NotUnderstood" (i.e. the other
side is telling you it didn't understand a key that it turns out you also
don't understand), you don't just answer "NotUnderstood". Either
saying nothing, or considering it a protocol violation (since if we both
didn't understand the key it should have never gotten into the
negotiations) are both fine options. I now favor protocol violation as if
neither side understood the key, it should not be there. If it's there,
something is wrong.

Take care,

Bill



From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Sat Aug 10 23:50:04 2002
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From: Bill Studenmund <wrstuden@wasabisystems.com>
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To: <pat_thaler@agilent.com>
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Subject: RE: Problem with use of NotUnderstood in negotiations
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On Fri, 9 Aug 2002 pat_thaler@agilent.com wrote:

> Bart,
>
> So the question is, in what order does a device do the checking.
>
> There are many possibilites for handling a received key that is
> unknown and comes in with the value unknown:
>
> A) Check key
>        if key unknown, send key=NotUnderstood
>          else ...process key=value pair
>
> B) Check key
>        if key unknown
>          if value=NotUnderstood silently drop (or close connection)
>            else send key=NotUnderstood
>
> I expect case A is more likely to get implemented in the absence
> of an explicit statement. There would normally be no need to
> examine the value of a key when one doesn't understand the key.
> In this case, the receiver never does a test that detects the
> apparent protocol violation of making an offer with a value
> NotUnderstood.

Actually, reading the spec, it's worse than that. The spec says if you
don't understand the key, you MUST answer NotUnderstood. Doesn't matter
what the value is, "MUST" is in there. So it's arguable that while case A
isn't what we want, it more closely conforms with the wording of the spec
than does case B.

The problem is that "strange_key=NotUnderstood" looks like two different
protocol issues, we give no guidance as to which one is more important,
and the different issues have different resolutions. One resolution has
MUST attached to it that will lead to more trouble.

> So, if we want to stop the loop that Bill has found, we should
> put in an explicit requirement to test the value for NotUnderstood
> before responding to a key with NotUnderstood.

In my thoughts now, it's more we want a release from the MUST assosciated
with keys we don't understand. I've changed my mind since I first posted.
I now think the best thing to do is say if you get a key you don't
understand and its value is NotUnderstood, you call it a protocol error.
That way it doesn't matter if you look at the key or the value first, you
arrive at a protocol error (and you sending nothing) either way.

Take care,

Bill



From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Sun Aug 11 01:05:39 2002
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To: Bill Studenmund <wrstuden@wasabisystems.com>
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu
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Subject: RE: Problem with use of NotUnderstood in negotiations
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Bill,

My only intention in the note was to be brief.  If you viewed that as rude 
I am really sorry.
I have a lot of mail to reply to and a limited time.

As for the crux of the matter - if one of the parties receives a key it 
has not seen before
with NotUnderstood as value it MUST act on it as a protocol error. The 
text is unambiguous on this.
However we may want to strengthen the rule in 4 (and add another line of 
text) as follows:

The constants "None", "Reject", "Irrelevant", and "NotUnderstood" are 
reserved and MUST ONLY be used as described here. Violation of this rule 
is a protocol error (in particular the use of "Reject", "Irrele-vant", and 
"NotUnderstood" as proposed values).

In the second part of my comment I was just saying that if you  failed to 
implement the above check you still can't enter a loop
because the double negotiation rule.

To get you in a loop in which every party think it answers - then either 
both are buggy or somebody is altering the messages maliciously.
The protocol is not designed to handle either.

Julo




Bill Studenmund <wrstuden@wasabisystems.com>
08/11/2002 06:11 AM

 
        To:     Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL
        cc:     <ips@ece.cmu.edu>
        Subject:        RE: Problem with use of NotUnderstood in negotiations

 

On Sat, 10 Aug 2002, Julian Satran wrote:

> Bill,
>
> Perhaps the text is unabiguos but you just ignored the text that forbids
> it.

Julian,

I must say that the tone above is very unbecoming of the author of a
protocol spec. In the past, I've often gotten snippy comments from you,
but written them off to, well, I'm not sure what. But it seems that you
really don't listen to what I say. You read a message, make an
interpretation, do not question that interpretation, and then you run with
it. That's really bad. Besides being quite rude and exceedingly arrogant,
you'll miss things. And the iSCSI spec will suffer for it. Do you think
whatever is going on between us worth more than a bad iSCSI spec? I don't.

Also, if you're going to say that the text is unambiguous, please quote
said text. That makes the discussion much clearer.

> The use of Notunderstood is limited to responses. Using it as you 
suggest
> is a protocol error.

Julian, I have to ask, what exactly do you think I'm suggesting? From
parsing your sentence, I read that you are telling me that I'm suggesting
using NotUnderstood outside its limited scope, of responses.

As I understand the situation I described, both parties think they are
using NotUnderstood as a response. How is using it as a response outside
its use as a response?

> A repeated use will also violate the "no renegotiation rule".

Please be VERY VERY VERY careful when saying that. Have you thought about
what the statement you just made will imply?

We are (or at least I started) talking about the case where one side
THOUGHT it sent key X, but somehow it was key Y that made it to the other
side. Be it a bug in the code on one side or the other, a PCI bus error in
transfer, a router glitch, or what. Key Y doesn't exist in the spec, and
it's in the negotiation stream. OGMarker or DataPDPInOrder would be
examples.

The point is, BOTH SIDES THINK THEY ARE RESPONDING to a key they don't
understand. Reading the spec, it succinctly states if you get a key you
don't understand, you MUST reply "NotUnderstood".

Getting back to the "repeated use is a protocol violation," how is each
side supposed to realize that they are seeing "OGMarker=NotUnderstood" for
the second time, other than by remembering that it saw OGMarker as a
not-understood key. i.e. by in addition to replying, "NotUnderstood", each
side has to remember that it responded NotUnderstood to key foo. That
seems unwise. I can think of at least one DoS attack if that really is
what implementations do.

Getting back to addressing the topic of the thread, what is wrong with
this text, slightly modified from the I proposed in the first message?

***
Any key not understood by the acceptor may be ignored by the acceptor
without affecting the basic function. However, unless the value for the
key was "NotUnderstood", the answer for a key not understood MUST be
key=NotUnderstood. The value "NotUnderstood" for a key not understood MUST
be considered a protocol violation.
***

As I said before, my main interest is the spec point out that if for a key
you don't understand you get the value "NotUnderstood" (i.e. the other
side is telling you it didn't understand a key that it turns out you also
don't understand), you don't just answer "NotUnderstood". Either
saying nothing, or considering it a protocol violation (since if we both
didn't understand the key it should have never gotten into the
negotiations) are both fine options. I now favor protocol violation as if
neither side understood the key, it should not be there. If it's there,
something is wrong.

Take care,

Bill




--=_alternative 00198538C2256C12_=
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"


<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Bill,</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">My only intention in the note was to be brief. &nbsp;If you viewed that as rude I am really sorry.</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">I have a lot of mail to reply to and a limited time.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">As for the crux of the matter - if one of the parties receives a key it has not seen before</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">with NotUnderstood as value it MUST act on it as a protocol error. The text is unambiguous on this.</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">However we may want to strengthen the rule in 4 (and add another line of text) as follows:</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="Courier New">The constants &quot;None&quot;, &quot;Reject&quot;, &quot;Irrelevant&quot;, and &quot;NotUnderstood&quot; are reserved and MUST ONLY be used as described here. Violation of this rule is a protocol error (in particular the use of &quot;Reject&quot;, &quot;Irrele-vant&quot;, and &quot;NotUnderstood&quot; as proposed values).</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">In the second part of my comment I was just saying that if you &nbsp;failed to implement the above check you still can't enter a loop</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">because the double negotiation rule.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">To get you in a loop in which every party think it answers - then either both are buggy or somebody is altering the messages maliciously.</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">The protocol is not designed to handle either.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Julo</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>Bill Studenmund &lt;wrstuden@wasabisystems.com&gt;</b></font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">08/11/2002 06:11 AM</font>
<br>
<td><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&lt;ips@ece.cmu.edu&gt;</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;RE: Problem with use of NotUnderstood in negotiations</font>
<br>
<br><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font></table>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">On Sat, 10 Aug 2002, Julian Satran wrote:<br>
<br>
&gt; Bill,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Perhaps the text is unabiguos but you just ignored the text that forbids<br>
&gt; it.<br>
<br>
Julian,<br>
<br>
I must say that the tone above is very unbecoming of the author of a<br>
protocol spec. In the past, I've often gotten snippy comments from you,<br>
but written them off to, well, I'm not sure what. But it seems that you<br>
really don't listen to what I say. You read a message, make an<br>
interpretation, do not question that interpretation, and then you run with<br>
it. That's really bad. Besides being quite rude and exceedingly arrogant,<br>
you'll miss things. And the iSCSI spec will suffer for it. Do you think<br>
whatever is going on between us worth more than a bad iSCSI spec? I don't.<br>
<br>
Also, if you're going to say that the text is unambiguous, please quote<br>
said text. That makes the discussion much clearer.<br>
<br>
&gt; The use of Notunderstood is limited to responses. Using it as you suggest<br>
&gt; is a protocol error.<br>
<br>
Julian, I have to ask, what exactly do you think I'm suggesting? From<br>
parsing your sentence, I read that you are telling me that I'm suggesting<br>
using NotUnderstood outside its limited scope, of responses.<br>
<br>
As I understand the situation I described, both parties think they are<br>
using NotUnderstood as a response. How is using it as a response outside<br>
its use as a response?<br>
<br>
&gt; A repeated use will also violate the &quot;no renegotiation rule&quot;.<br>
<br>
Please be VERY VERY VERY careful when saying that. Have you thought about<br>
what the statement you just made will imply?<br>
<br>
We are (or at least I started) talking about the case where one side<br>
THOUGHT it sent key X, but somehow it was key Y that made it to the other<br>
side. Be it a bug in the code on one side or the other, a PCI bus error in<br>
transfer, a router glitch, or what. Key Y doesn't exist in the spec, and<br>
it's in the negotiation stream. OGMarker or DataPDPInOrder would be<br>
examples.<br>
<br>
The point is, BOTH SIDES THINK THEY ARE RESPONDING to a key they don't<br>
understand. Reading the spec, it succinctly states if you get a key you<br>
don't understand, you MUST reply &quot;NotUnderstood&quot;.<br>
<br>
Getting back to the &quot;repeated use is a protocol violation,&quot; how is each<br>
side supposed to realize that they are seeing &quot;OGMarker=NotUnderstood&quot; for<br>
the second time, other than by remembering that it saw OGMarker as a<br>
not-understood key. i.e. by in addition to replying, &quot;NotUnderstood&quot;, each<br>
side has to remember that it responded NotUnderstood to key foo. That<br>
seems unwise. I can think of at least one DoS attack if that really is<br>
what implementations do.<br>
<br>
Getting back to addressing the topic of the thread, what is wrong with<br>
this text, slightly modified from the I proposed in the first message?<br>
<br>
***<br>
Any key not understood by the acceptor may be ignored by the acceptor<br>
without affecting the basic function. However, unless the value for the<br>
key was &quot;NotUnderstood&quot;, the answer for a key not understood MUST be<br>
key=NotUnderstood. The value &quot;NotUnderstood&quot; for a key not understood MUST<br>
be considered a protocol violation.<br>
***<br>
<br>
As I said before, my main interest is the spec point out that if for a key<br>
you don't understand you get the value &quot;NotUnderstood&quot; (i.e. the other<br>
side is telling you it didn't understand a key that it turns out you also<br>
don't understand), you don't just answer &quot;NotUnderstood&quot;. Either<br>
saying nothing, or considering it a protocol violation (since if we both<br>
didn't understand the key it should have never gotten into the<br>
negotiations) are both fine options. I now favor protocol violation as if<br>
neither side understood the key, it should not be there. If it's there,</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">something is wrong.<br>
<br>
Take care,<br>
<br>
Bill<br>
<br>
</font>
<br>
<br>
--=_alternative 00198538C2256C12_=--


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Sun Aug 11 01:12:39 2002
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From: Bill Studenmund <wrstuden@wasabisystems.com>
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To: Julian Satran <Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com>
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Subject: RE: Problem with use of NotUnderstood in negotiations
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On Sat, 10 Aug 2002, Bill Studenmund wrote:

> ***
> Any key not understood by the acceptor may be ignored by the acceptor
> without affecting the basic function. However, unless the value for the
> key was "NotUnderstood", the answer for a key not understood MUST be
> key=NotUnderstood. The value "NotUnderstood" for a key not understood MUST
> be considered a protocol violation.
> ***

New text. The point is to let us out of the MUST answer when we have what
looks like a protocol negotiation error.

***

Any key not understood by the acceptor may be ignored by the acceptor
without affecting the basic function. If the offered value consists of one
of the reserved constants "Reject", "Irrelevant", or "NotUnderstood", the
offer MUST be considered a protocol error and the acceptor SHOULD respond
as if the same constant had been offered for a known key. Otherwise, the
answer for a key not understood MUST be key=NotUnderstood.

***

This way we get out of the MUST that we don't really want to obey, and
those three constants give a protocol error either way you look at things.

Take care,

Bill



From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Sun Aug 11 01:14:08 2002
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From: Bill Studenmund <wrstuden@wasabisystems.com>
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To: Julian Satran <Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com>
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Subject: RE: Problem with use of NotUnderstood in negotiations
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On Sun, 11 Aug 2002, Julian Satran wrote:

> Bill,
>
> My only intention in the note was to be brief.  If you viewed that as rude
> I am really sorry.
> I have a lot of mail to reply to and a limited time.

And my appologies if I saw rudeness that was not intended.

> As for the crux of the matter - if one of the parties receives a key it
> has not seen before
> with NotUnderstood as value it MUST act on it as a protocol error. The
> text is unambiguous on this.
> However we may want to strengthen the rule in 4 (and add another line of
> text) as follows:
>
> The constants "None", "Reject", "Irrelevant", and "NotUnderstood" are
> reserved and MUST ONLY be used as described here. Violation of this rule
> is a protocol error (in particular the use of "Reject", "Irrele-vant", and
> "NotUnderstood" as proposed values).

Ok. That would work. Also see my proposed text that crossed this one in
the mail.

> In the second part of my comment I was just saying that if you  failed to
> implement the above check you still can't enter a loop
> because the double negotiation rule.
>
> To get you in a loop in which every party think it answers - then either
> both are buggy or somebody is altering the messages maliciously.
> The protocol is not designed to handle either.

But do we need to remember keys we didn't understand? I hadn't taken that
away from the spec before now; I (and others, as evidenced by code :-)
thought it was safe to just respond and be on with it. For the
double-negotiation rule to catch it, we have to remember them.

Is that really what we want? I have this unplesant image of one side
wanting to try a whole lot of vendor keys (different vendors), and the
other side being a simple negotiator and getting overwhelmed.

Take care,

Bill



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To: Bill Studenmund <wrstuden@wasabisystems.com>
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu
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Subject: RE: Problem with use of NotUnderstood in negotiations
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From: "Julian Satran" <Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com>
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Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 08:40:16 +0300
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Bill,

I am afraid you have to remember any key received just to avoid a rough 
initiator/target knowingly send noise.
You may also want to terminate a session with too many "NotUnderstood".

Julo




Bill Studenmund <wrstuden@wasabisystems.com>
08/11/2002 07:57 AM

 
        To:     Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL
        cc:     <ips@ece.cmu.edu>
        Subject:        RE: Problem with use of NotUnderstood in negotiations

 

On Sun, 11 Aug 2002, Julian Satran wrote:

> Bill,
>
> My only intention in the note was to be brief.  If you viewed that as 
rude
> I am really sorry.
> I have a lot of mail to reply to and a limited time.

And my appologies if I saw rudeness that was not intended.

> As for the crux of the matter - if one of the parties receives a key it
> has not seen before
> with NotUnderstood as value it MUST act on it as a protocol error. The
> text is unambiguous on this.
> However we may want to strengthen the rule in 4 (and add another line of
> text) as follows:
>
> The constants "None", "Reject", "Irrelevant", and "NotUnderstood" are
> reserved and MUST ONLY be used as described here. Violation of this rule
> is a protocol error (in particular the use of "Reject", "Irrele-vant", 
and
> "NotUnderstood" as proposed values).

Ok. That would work. Also see my proposed text that crossed this one in
the mail.

> In the second part of my comment I was just saying that if you  failed 
to
> implement the above check you still can't enter a loop
> because the double negotiation rule.
>
> To get you in a loop in which every party think it answers - then either
> both are buggy or somebody is altering the messages maliciously.
> The protocol is not designed to handle either.

But do we need to remember keys we didn't understand? I hadn't taken that
away from the spec before now; I (and others, as evidenced by code :-)
thought it was safe to just respond and be on with it. For the
double-negotiation rule to catch it, we have to remember them.

Is that really what we want? I have this unplesant image of one side
wanting to try a whole lot of vendor keys (different vendors), and the
other side being a simple negotiator and getting overwhelmed.

Take care,

Bill




--=_alternative 001E7013C2256C12_=
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"


<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Bill,</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">I am afraid you have to remember any key received just to avoid a rough initiator/target knowingly send noise.</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">You may also want to terminate a session with too many &quot;NotUnderstood&quot;.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Julo</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>Bill Studenmund &lt;wrstuden@wasabisystems.com&gt;</b></font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">08/11/2002 07:57 AM</font>
<br>
<td><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&lt;ips@ece.cmu.edu&gt;</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;RE: Problem with use of NotUnderstood in negotiations</font>
<br>
<br><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font></table>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">On Sun, 11 Aug 2002, Julian Satran wrote:<br>
<br>
&gt; Bill,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; My only intention in the note was to be brief. &nbsp;If you viewed that as rude<br>
&gt; I am really sorry.<br>
&gt; I have a lot of mail to reply to and a limited time.<br>
<br>
And my appologies if I saw rudeness that was not intended.<br>
<br>
&gt; As for the crux of the matter - if one of the parties receives a key it<br>
&gt; has not seen before<br>
&gt; with NotUnderstood as value it MUST act on it as a protocol error. The<br>
&gt; text is unambiguous on this.<br>
&gt; However we may want to strengthen the rule in 4 (and add another line of<br>
&gt; text) as follows:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; The constants &quot;None&quot;, &quot;Reject&quot;, &quot;Irrelevant&quot;, and &quot;NotUnderstood&quot; are<br>
&gt; reserved and MUST ONLY be used as described here. Violation of this rule<br>
&gt; is a protocol error (in particular the use of &quot;Reject&quot;, &quot;Irrele-vant&quot;, and<br>
&gt; &quot;NotUnderstood&quot; as proposed values).<br>
<br>
Ok. That would work. Also see my proposed text that crossed this one in<br>
the mail.<br>
<br>
&gt; In the second part of my comment I was just saying that if you &nbsp;failed to<br>
&gt; implement the above check you still can't enter a loop<br>
&gt; because the double negotiation rule.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; To get you in a loop in which every party think it answers - then either<br>
&gt; both are buggy or somebody is altering the messages maliciously.<br>
&gt; The protocol is not designed to handle either.<br>
<br>
But do we need to remember keys we didn't understand? I hadn't taken that<br>
away from the spec before now; I (and others, as evidenced by code :-)<br>
thought it was safe to just respond and be on with it. For the<br>
double-negotiation rule to catch it, we have to remember them.<br>
<br>
Is that really what we want? I have this unplesant image of one side<br>
wanting to try a whole lot of vendor keys (different vendors), and the<br>
other side being a simple negotiator and getting overwhelmed.<br>
<br>
Take care,<br>
<br>
Bill<br>
<br>
</font>
<br>
<br>
--=_alternative 001E7013C2256C12_=--


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Sun Aug 11 02:11:48 2002
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From: Bill Studenmund <wrstuden@wasabisystems.com>
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On Sun, 11 Aug 2002, Julian Satran wrote:

> Bill,
>
> I am afraid you have to remember any key received just to avoid a rough
> initiator/target knowingly send noise.
> You may also want to terminate a session with too many "NotUnderstood".

Ugh.

Well, if that's the way we want to do it, then you're right that the
no-double-negotiation rule will cover it, and your text you sent earlier
is probably fine.

Thanks for the input!

Take care,

Bill



From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Sun Aug 11 17:44:47 2002
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From: Elizabeth Rodriguez <erodrigu@Brocade.COM>
To: "'ips@ece.cmu.edu'" <ips@ece.cmu.edu>
Subject: IPS-ALL: IPS WG Last Call on the iSCSI draft -- ends Sunday, Augu
	st 25th 
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 14:01:49 -0700
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All,

We would like to announce IPS WG last call on the iSCSI draft.
This is the second WG last call, and all comments from the first WG last
call period should be addressed by this draft.
(Note:  Addressed means that all comments were considered, not necessarily
accepted.)

The last call period is for two weeks, ending at 5pm EST on Sunday, August
25th.
Editorial comments may be directly sent to Julian Satran
(Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com), with copy to myself (erodrigu@brocade.com),
David Black (black_david@emc.com) and John Hufferd (hufferd@us.ibm.com).
Technical comments should be sent to the IPS mailing list for discussion.

There are two versions of the document available:
Text:  http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ips-iscsi-15.txt 
PDF:  http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ips-iscsi-15.pdf

The two documents should be identical, but the official version is the text
version.

Thanks,

Elizabeth Rodriguez & David Black,
IPS co-chairs




From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Mon Aug 12 11:42:52 2002
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X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.9  November 16, 2001
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From: "Julian Satran" <Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 18:04:59 +0300
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Dear All,

As for the first WG Last Call you will find at:

http://www.haifa.il.ibm.com/satran/ips

A list of issues and their resolution and the "running version 16" in pdf 
and text.

Julo
----- Forwarded by Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM on 08/12/2002 08:49 AM -----


Elizabeth Rodriguez <erodrigu@Brocade.COM>
Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
08/12/2002 12:01 AM

 
        To:     "'ips@ece.cmu.edu'" <ips@ece.cmu.edu>
        cc: 
        Subject:        IPS-ALL: IPS WG Last Call on the iSCSI draft -- ends Sunday, Augu       st 
25th

 

All,

We would like to announce IPS WG last call on the iSCSI draft.
This is the second WG last call, and all comments from the first WG last
call period should be addressed by this draft.
(Note:  Addressed means that all comments were considered, not necessarily
accepted.)

The last call period is for two weeks, ending at 5pm EST on Sunday, August
25th.
Editorial comments may be directly sent to Julian Satran
(Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com), with copy to myself (erodrigu@brocade.com),
David Black (black_david@emc.com) and John Hufferd (hufferd@us.ibm.com).
Technical comments should be sent to the IPS mailing list for discussion.

There are two versions of the document available:
Text:  http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ips-iscsi-15.txt 
PDF:  http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ips-iscsi-15.pdf

The two documents should be identical, but the official version is the 
text
version.

Thanks,

Elizabeth Rodriguez & David Black,
IPS co-chairs





--=_alternative 0052DAC5C2256C13_=
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"


<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Dear All,</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">As for the first WG Last Call you will find at:</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">http://www.haifa.il.ibm.com/satran/ips</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">A list of issues and their resolution and the &quot;running version 16&quot; in pdf and text.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Julo</font>
<br><font size=1 color=#800080 face="sans-serif">----- Forwarded by Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM on 08/12/2002 08:49 AM -----</font>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>Elizabeth Rodriguez &lt;erodrigu@Brocade.COM&gt;</b></font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu</font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">08/12/2002 12:01 AM</font>
<br>
<td><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&quot;'ips@ece.cmu.edu'&quot; &lt;ips@ece.cmu.edu&gt;</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;IPS-ALL: IPS WG Last Call on the iSCSI draft -- ends Sunday, Augu &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;st 25th</font>
<br>
<br><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font></table>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">All,<br>
<br>
We would like to announce IPS WG last call on the iSCSI draft.<br>
This is the second WG last call, and all comments from the first WG last<br>
call period should be addressed by this draft.<br>
(Note: &nbsp;Addressed means that all comments were considered, not necessarily<br>
accepted.)<br>
<br>
The last call period is for two weeks, ending at 5pm EST on Sunday, August<br>
25th.<br>
Editorial comments may be directly sent to Julian Satran<br>
(Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com), with copy to myself (erodrigu@brocade.com),<br>
David Black (black_david@emc.com) and John Hufferd (hufferd@us.ibm.com).<br>
Technical comments should be sent to the IPS mailing list for discussion.<br>
<br>
There are two versions of the document available:<br>
Text: &nbsp;http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ips-iscsi-15.txt <br>
PDF: &nbsp;http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ips-iscsi-15.pdf<br>
<br>
The two documents should be identical, but the official version is the text<br>
version.<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
<br>
Elizabeth Rodriguez &amp; David Black,<br>
IPS co-chairs<br>
<br>
<br>
</font>
<br>
<br>
--=_alternative 0052DAC5C2256C13_=--


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Mon Aug 12 16:44:42 2002
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From: pat_thaler@agilent.com
To: Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com, ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: Problem with use of NotUnderstood in negotiations
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 14:08:24 -0600
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Julian,

I agree that the current text is explicit in restricting the use of the special values. In the scenario suggested each device is using NotUnderstood as the text requires.

Where the ambiguity arises is what checking one does on values of a key that one doesn't understand. When you are doing a series of tests for validity and the first one fails, do you take the action that failure requires or do you first do some of the following tests? Usually one would do the former unless there was an explicit requirement to do additional tests.

I don't find anything in the current text that requires checking the value when one receives an not understood key. Furthermore, I don't think it is necessary to require such a check. 

The scenario that was brought up was a corner case that hangs up login. There can be other corner cases we haven't discovered yet. It makes more sense to deal with it by timing out a negotiation that goes on too long (in time or number of exchanges) than by making a special rule for this particular corner case.

Regards,
Pat

-----Original Message-----
From: Julian Satran [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]
Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 9:11 PM
To: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: Problem with use of NotUnderstood in negotiations



Pat,

The current text is explicit in restricting the use of the special values
NotUnderstood, Reject etc.

Julo



                                                                                                                                    
                      pat_thaler@agilen                                                                                             
                      t.com                    To:       bcrane@iready.com, ips@ece.cmu.edu                                         
                      Sent by:                 cc:                                                                                  
                      owner-ips@ece.cmu        Subject:  RE: Problem with use of NotUnderstood in negotiations                      
                      .edu                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                    
                      08/09/2002 11:04                                                                                              
                      PM                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                    



Bart,

So the question is, in what order does a device do the checking.

There are many possibilites for handling a received key that is
unknown and comes in with the value unknown:

A) Check key
       if key unknown, send key=NotUnderstood
         else ...process key=value pair

B) Check key
       if key unknown
         if value=NotUnderstood silently drop (or close connection)
           else send key=NotUnderstood

I expect case A is more likely to get implemented in the absence
of an explicit statement. There would normally be no need to
examine the value of a key when one doesn't understand the key.
In this case, the receiver never does a test that detects the
apparent protocol violation of making an offer with a value
NotUnderstood.

So, if we want to stop the loop that Bill has found, we should
put in an explicit requirement to test the value for NotUnderstood
before responding to a key with NotUnderstood.

The alternative is to leave things as they are and count on
implementations to abort the negotiation based on a timeout
or a count of excessive number of negotiation PDU exchanges.

Regards,
Pat

-----Original Message-----
From: Bart Crane [mailto:bcrane@iready.com]
Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 12:33 PM
To: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: Problem with use of NotUnderstood in negotiations



This new rule is not necessary.


Sec. 4.2 says:


   The constants None, Reject, Irrelevant, and NotUnderstood
   are reserved and must only be used as described here.


In the situation you describe, the sender will be expecting
a response to "keyA", but the key-name was corrupted to "keyB".


The receiver does not understand "keyB", and so responds with
"keyB=NotUnderstood".


To the sender, this appears to be the start of negotiating a
new key, "keyB", with the value "NotUnderstood".


But, this is not a valid use of the value "NotUnderstood",
so it is a protocol error.


So, the new rule of not-responding to keys with the value
"NotUnderstood" is not necessary.


Bart.


-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Studenmund [mailto:wrstuden@wasabisystems.com]
Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 9:12 AM
To: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: Problem with use of NotUnderstood in negotiations





I encountered a problem with how draft 15 specifies using NotUnderstood as
a reply to keys that aren't understood. Namely if something injects
garbage into the negotiation stream we can end up with a key BOTH sides
don't understand, and so they both sit there sending "foo=NotUnderstood"
back and forth to each other.


Yes, well-behaved negotiators won't offer a key they don't understand. But
the data stream can be corrupted, and all it would take is a single-bit
error in a key name and we encounter the above.


I propose we change the text to:


Any key not understood by the acceptor may be ignored by the acceptor
without affecting the basic function. However, unless the value for the
key was "NotUnderstood", the answer for a key not understood MUST be
key=NotUnderstood. If the value for the key was "NotUnderstood", the
acceptor MUST not answer the key.


Note: I can easily see closing the connection with an error in the above
case too.


Thoughts?


Take care,


Bill








From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Mon Aug 12 16:44:46 2002
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From: "THALER,PAT (A-Roseville,ex1)" <pat_thaler@agilent.com>
To: Julian Satran <Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com>, ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: Problem with use of NotUnderstood in negotiations
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 14:08:31 -0600
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Julian,

In the scenario, each device does use Notunderstood in a response. 

A sends keyxxx
Silent data corruption occurs that changes keyxxx to keyxxy
B gets keyxxy and doesn't recognize it so it responds
keyxxy=Notunderstood
A gets that and thinks it is an offer of a key it doesn't understand because it never sent keyxxy.
A therefore sends
keyxxy=Notunderstood
B gets keyxxy and doesn't recognize it so it responds
keyxxy=Notunderstood
.....

Regards,
Pat

-----Original Message-----
From: Julian Satran [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]
Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 9:24 PM
To: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: Problem with use of NotUnderstood in negotiations



Bill,

Perhaps the text is unabiguos but you just ignored the text that forbids
it.
The use of Notunderstood is limited to responses. Using it as you suggest
is a protocol error.
A repeated use will also violate the "no renegotiation rule".

Julo




                                                                                                                                    
                      Bill Studenmund                                                                                               
                      <wrstuden@wasabis        To:       Bart Crane <bcrane@iready.com>                                             
                      ystems.com>              cc:       <ips@ece.cmu.edu>                                                          
                      Sent by:                 Subject:  RE: Problem with use of NotUnderstood in negotiations                      
                      owner-ips@ece.cmu                                                                                             
                      .edu                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                    
                      08/10/2002 02:22                                                                                              
                      AM                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                    



On Fri, 9 Aug 2002, Bart Crane wrote:

?? In the scenario I describe, neither side believes it offered the key.

> Thus, there is no need to add another rule regarding not-responding to
> keys with NotUnderstood as a value, because a key with that value is
> a protocol error.
>
> This could be made more explicit, but there does not seem to be any
> ambiguity.

There obviously is ambiguity. The fact we're having this discussion is
proof. :-)

I'd support saying this case is a protocol error, since it means something
neither side understands got into the stream (and chances are an offer got
removed). But I think adding an explicit direction as to what to do is
needed.

Take care,

Bill






From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Mon Aug 12 17:37:21 2002
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Reply-To: <tonyb@cybernetics.com>
From: "Tony Battersby" <tonyb@cybernetics.com>
To: <ips@ece.cmu.edu>
Subject: iSCSI: Abort Task Set CmdSN: < or <=
Date:  Mon, 12 Aug 2002 16:39:15 -0400
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Draft 15, section 9.5.1:
"Task management requests must act on all the commands having a CmdSN lower
than the task management CmdSN."
"... all the tasks covered by the Task Management response (i.e., with CmdSN
not higher than the task management command CmdSN), ..."

"Lower than" is not the same as "not higher than" for the case of equal
CmdSN's, which could happen if an immediate command preceeded the task
management request.  So if an immediate command is issued followed by a Task
Management Function Request of ABORT TASK SET with the same CmdSN as the
immediate command, should the immediate command be aborted or not?

Anthony J. Battersby
Cybernetics


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Mon Aug 12 20:11:16 2002
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From: "Murali Rajagopal" <muralir@cox.net>
To: "Chong Peng" <ChongPeng@MaXXan.com>
Cc: <ips@ece.cmu.edu>
Subject: RE: questions about fcip
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 16:35:59 -0700
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Question 1:  Why would a FCIP link need multiple TCP connections?
Following text extracted from Section 11.1 provides some motivations for
multiple TCP connections.

" ....
Depending on the sophistication of the FC Entity, further value may be
obtained by having multiple TCP Connections with differing QoS
characteristics.

There are many reasons why an FC Entity might request creation of multiple
TCP Connections within an FCIP_LEP. These reasons include a desire to
provide differentiated service for different TCP data connections between
FCIP_LEPs or a preference to separately queue different streams of traffic
not having a common in-order delivery requirement. ...."

Question 2. If there are multiple TCP connections in a FCIP link, which
entity is responsible for distributing  traffic among them?

The FCIP Entity.

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu [mailto:owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu]On Behalf Of
Chong Peng
Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 4:02 PM
To: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: questions about fcip



FCIP gurus:

The FCIP protocol allows one FCIP link have multiple TCP connection. I have
two questions about this:

1. Why would a FCIP link need multiple TCP connections?
2. If there are multiple TCP connections in a FCIP link, which entity is
responsible for distributing  traffic among them.

Chong Peng


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or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please
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message.
Copyright © 2002 MaXXan Systems, Inc. All rights reserved.



From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Mon Aug 12 21:05:54 2002
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From: pat_thaler@agilent.com
To: Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com, wrstuden@wasabisystems.com
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: Problem with use of NotUnderstood in negotiations
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Julian,
 
Saying that a violation of a rule is a protocol error is not the same as saying that the receiver must detect and react to the error. I don't think your suggested change to the text changes anything. If we want to say that receiving an offer for any key (even if the key is not understood) with a value of "Reject", "Irrelevant" or "NotUnderstood" MUST be detected and treated as a protocol failure, then a specific statement to that effect should be added.
 
Secondly, there is no requirement that re-negotiation MUST be detected. The specific text on renegotiation is (for login): 
If an attempt to re-negotiate/redeclare parameters not specifically allowed is detected by the target the target MUST respond with Login reject (initiator error); if detected by the initiator the initiator MUST drop the connection.

The text for operational negotiation is similar except that the actions taken on detection are different.
 
It says "If an attempt ...is detected" which is entirely different than saying such attempts "MUST be detected". 
 
As Bill as pointed out, detecting re-negotiation of unknown parameters is onerous and I am very opposed to adding such a requirement. It adds unnecessary cost for minimal benefit. For the keys that are supported, on just needs a couple of bits per parameter to keep track of whether the state is unnegotiated, received offer, sent offer or negotiation complete and one may need that state even if one wasn't going to detect re-negotiation. Thus, it is pretty trivial to detect re-negotiation of supported keys. 
 
If someone wants to maliciously tie up a negotiation, they can do so by continuously offering new unknown keys and no working non-malicious implementation will keep offering the same key. One would have to save all
received unsupported keys and each time an unsupported key was received it would have to be compared to the list. This is time and memory consuming and unnecessary. It isn't required by draft 15 and no such requirement should be added.
 
A simpler solution to concerns about the silent data corruption problem Bill identified is either 
 
1) add in text requiring that an offer the value equal to NotUnderstood be detected as a protocol error even if the key is not supported/not understood
 
or 
 
2) rely on timing out the negotiation if it doesn't complete after reasonable time or number of exchanges (definition of reasoanble left to the implementation probably).
 
Personally, I prefer number 2 because it will catch anything that hangs up a negotiation with one test. I don't know that we can find every corner case. Even if we could, it is better to have one test that digs us out for all corner case errors than to put in many specific tests.
 
However, number 1 would also be acceptable to me.
 
Regards,
Pat
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Julian Satran [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]
Sent: Saturday, August 10, 2002 9:40 PM
To: Bill Studenmund
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: Problem with use of NotUnderstood in negotiations



Bill, 

My only intention in the note was to be brief.  If you viewed that as rude I am really sorry. 
I have a lot of mail to reply to and a limited time. 

As for the crux of the matter - if one of the parties receives a key it has not seen before 
with NotUnderstood as value it MUST act on it as a protocol error. The text is unambiguous on this. 
However we may want to strengthen the rule in 4 (and add another line of text) as follows: 

The constants "None", "Reject", "Irrelevant", and "NotUnderstood" are reserved and MUST ONLY be used as described here. Violation of this rule is a protocol error (in particular the use of "Reject", "Irrele-vant", and "NotUnderstood" as proposed values). 

In the second part of my comment I was just saying that if you  failed to implement the above check you still can't enter a loop 
because the double negotiation rule. 

To get you in a loop in which every party think it answers - then either both are buggy or somebody is altering the messages maliciously. 
The protocol is not designed to handle either. 

Julo 



	Bill Studenmund <wrstuden@wasabisystems.com> 


08/11/2002 06:11 AM 


        
        To:        Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL 
        cc:        <ips@ece.cmu.edu> 
        Subject:        RE: Problem with use of NotUnderstood in negotiations 

       


On Sat, 10 Aug 2002, Julian Satran wrote:

> Bill,
>
> Perhaps the text is unabiguos but you just ignored the text that forbids
> it.

Julian,

I must say that the tone above is very unbecoming of the author of a
protocol spec. In the past, I've often gotten snippy comments from you,
but written them off to, well, I'm not sure what. But it seems that you
really don't listen to what I say. You read a message, make an
interpretation, do not question that interpretation, and then you run with
it. That's really bad. Besides being quite rude and exceedingly arrogant,
you'll miss things. And the iSCSI spec will suffer for it. Do you think
whatever is going on between us worth more than a bad iSCSI spec? I don't.

Also, if you're going to say that the text is unambiguous, please quote
said text. That makes the discussion much clearer.

> The use of Notunderstood is limited to responses. Using it as you suggest
> is a protocol error.

Julian, I have to ask, what exactly do you think I'm suggesting? From
parsing your sentence, I read that you are telling me that I'm suggesting
using NotUnderstood outside its limited scope, of responses.

As I understand the situation I described, both parties think they are
using NotUnderstood as a response. How is using it as a response outside
its use as a response?

> A repeated use will also violate the "no renegotiation rule".

Please be VERY VERY VERY careful when saying that. Have you thought about
what the statement you just made will imply?

We are (or at least I started) talking about the case where one side
THOUGHT it sent key X, but somehow it was key Y that made it to the other
side. Be it a bug in the code on one side or the other, a PCI bus error in
transfer, a router glitch, or what. Key Y doesn't exist in the spec, and
it's in the negotiation stream. OGMarker or DataPDPInOrder would be
examples.

The point is, BOTH SIDES THINK THEY ARE RESPONDING to a key they don't
understand. Reading the spec, it succinctly states if you get a key you
don't understand, you MUST reply "NotUnderstood".

Getting back to the "repeated use is a protocol violation," how is each
side supposed to realize that they are seeing "OGMarker=NotUnderstood" for
the second time, other than by remembering that it saw OGMarker as a
not-understood key. i.e. by in addition to replying, "NotUnderstood", each
side has to remember that it responded NotUnderstood to key foo. That
seems unwise. I can think of at least one DoS attack if that really is
what implementations do.

Getting back to addressing the topic of the thread, what is wrong with
this text, slightly modified from the I proposed in the first message?

***
Any key not understood by the acceptor may be ignored by the acceptor
without affecting the basic function. However, unless the value for the
key was "NotUnderstood", the answer for a key not understood MUST be
key=NotUnderstood. The value "NotUnderstood" for a key not understood MUST
be considered a protocol violation.
***

As I said before, my main interest is the spec point out that if for a key
you don't understand you get the value "NotUnderstood" (i.e. the other
side is telling you it didn't understand a key that it turns out you also
don't understand), you don't just answer "NotUnderstood". Either
saying nothing, or considering it a protocol violation (since if we both
didn't understand the key it should have never gotten into the
negotiations) are both fine options. I now favor protocol violation as if
neither side understood the key, it should not be there. If it's there, 
something is wrong.

Take care,

Bill





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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=288280600-13082002>Julian,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=288280600-13082002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=288280600-13082002>Saying that a 
violation of a rule is a protocol error is not the same as saying that the 
receiver must detect and react to the error. I don't think your suggested change 
to the text changes anything. If we want to say that receiving an offer 
for&nbsp;any key (even if the key is </SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=288280600-13082002>not understood) with a value of "Reject", "Irrelevant" 
or "NotUnderstood" MUST be detected and treated as a protocol failure, then a 
specific statement to that effect should be added.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=288280600-13082002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=288280600-13082002>Secondly, there is 
no requirement that&nbsp;re-negotiation MUST be detected. The specific text on 
renegotiation is (for login): </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><SPAN class=288280600-13082002>
<P align=left><FONT face=Courier size=2>If an attempt to 
re-negotiate/redeclare<SPAN class=288280600-13082002> </SPAN>parameters not 
specifically allowed is detected by the target<SPAN class=288280600-13082002> 
</SPAN>the target MUST respond with Login reject (initiator error); if<SPAN 
class=288280600-13082002> </SPAN>detected by the initiator the initiator MUST 
drop the connection.</FONT></P></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=288280600-13082002>The text for 
operational negotiation is similar except that the actions taken on detection 
are different.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=288280600-13082002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=288280600-13082002>It says "If an 
attempt ...is detected" which is entirely different than saying such attempts 
"MUST be detected". </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=288280600-13082002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=288280600-13082002>As Bill as pointed 
out, detecting re-negotiation of unknown parameters is onerous and I 
am&nbsp;very opposed to adding such a requirement.&nbsp;It adds 
unnecessary&nbsp;cost for minimal benefit. For the keys that are supported, on 
just needs a couple of bits per parameter to keep track of whether the state is 
unnegotiated, received offer, sent offer or negotiation complete and one 
may&nbsp;need that state even if one wasn't going to detect re-negotiation. 
Thus, it is pretty trivial to detect re-negotiation of supported keys. 
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=288280600-13082002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=288280600-13082002>If someone wants to 
maliciously tie up a negotiation, they can do so by continuously offering new 
unknown keys and no working non-malicious implementation will keep offering the 
same key. One would have to save all</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=288280600-13082002>received unsupported 
keys and&nbsp;each time&nbsp;an unsupported key was received it would have to be 
compared to the list. This is time and memory consuming and unnecessary. It 
isn't required by draft 15 and no such requirement should be 
added.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=288280600-13082002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=288280600-13082002>A simpler solution 
to concerns about the silent data corruption problem Bill identified is either 
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=288280600-13082002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=288280600-13082002>1) add in text 
requiring that an offer the value&nbsp;equal to NotUnderstood be detected as a 
protocol error even if the key is not supported/not 
understood</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=288280600-13082002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=288280600-13082002>or 
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=288280600-13082002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=288280600-13082002>2) rely on timing 
out the negotiation if it doesn't complete after reasonable time or number of 
exchanges (definition of reasoanble left to the implementation 
probably).</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=288280600-13082002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=288280600-13082002>Personally, I prefer 
number 2 because it will catch anything that hangs up a negotiation with one 
test.&nbsp;I don't know that we can find every corner case. Even if we could, it 
is better to have one test that digs us out for all corner case errors&nbsp;than 
to put in many specific tests.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=288280600-13082002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=288280600-13082002>However, number 1 
would also be acceptable to me.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=288280600-13082002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=288280600-13082002>Regards,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=288280600-13082002>Pat</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=288280600-13082002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma 
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Julian Satran 
[mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, August 10, 2002 9:40 
PM<BR><B>To:</B> Bill Studenmund<BR><B>Cc:</B> 
ips@ece.cmu.edu<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: Problem with use of NotUnderstood in 
negotiations<BR><BR></FONT></DIV><BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>Bill,</FONT> 
<BR><BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>My only intention in the note was to be 
brief. &nbsp;If you viewed that as rude I am really sorry.</FONT> <BR><FONT 
face=sans-serif size=2>I have a lot of mail to reply to and a limited 
time.</FONT> <BR><BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>As for the crux of the matter 
- if one of the parties receives a key it has not seen before</FONT> <BR><FONT 
face=sans-serif size=2>with NotUnderstood as value it MUST act on it as a 
protocol error. The text is unambiguous on this.</FONT> <BR><FONT 
face=sans-serif size=2>However we may want to strengthen the rule in 4 (and add 
another line of text) as follows:</FONT> <BR><BR><FONT face="Courier New" 
size=3>The constants "None", "Reject", "Irrelevant", and "NotUnderstood" are 
reserved and MUST ONLY be used as described here. Violation of this rule is a 
protocol error (in particular the use of "Reject", "Irrele-vant", and 
"NotUnderstood" as proposed values).</FONT> <BR><BR><FONT face=sans-serif 
size=2>In the second part of my comment I was just saying that if you 
&nbsp;failed to implement the above check you still can't enter a loop</FONT> 
<BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>because the double negotiation rule.</FONT> 
<BR><BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>To get you in a loop in which every party 
think it answers - then either both are buggy or somebody is altering the 
messages maliciously.</FONT> <BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>The protocol is 
not designed to handle either.</FONT> <BR><BR><FONT face=sans-serif 
size=2>Julo</FONT> <BR><BR><BR>
<TABLE width="100%">
  <TBODY>
  <TR vAlign=top>
    <TD>
    <TD><FONT face=sans-serif size=1><B>Bill Studenmund 
      &lt;wrstuden@wasabisystems.com&gt;</B></FONT> 
      <P><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>08/11/2002 06:11 AM</FONT> <BR></P>
    <TD><FONT face=Arial size=1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </FONT><BR><FONT 
      face=sans-serif size=1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; To: &nbsp; &nbsp; 
      &nbsp; &nbsp;Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL</FONT> <BR><FONT 
      face=sans-serif size=1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; 
      &nbsp; &nbsp;&lt;ips@ece.cmu.edu&gt;</FONT> <BR><FONT face=sans-serif 
      size=1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;RE: 
      Problem with use of NotUnderstood in negotiations</FONT> <BR><BR><FONT 
      face=Arial size=1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 
&nbsp;</FONT></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR><BR><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>On 
Sat, 10 Aug 2002, Julian Satran wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Bill,<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Perhaps 
the text is unabiguos but you just ignored the text that forbids<BR>&gt; 
it.<BR><BR>Julian,<BR><BR>I must say that the tone above is very unbecoming of 
the author of a<BR>protocol spec. In the past, I've often gotten snippy comments 
from you,<BR>but written them off to, well, I'm not sure what. But it seems that 
you<BR>really don't listen to what I say. You read a message, make 
an<BR>interpretation, do not question that interpretation, and then you run 
with<BR>it. That's really bad. Besides being quite rude and exceedingly 
arrogant,<BR>you'll miss things. And the iSCSI spec will suffer for it. Do you 
think<BR>whatever is going on between us worth more than a bad iSCSI spec? I 
don't.<BR><BR>Also, if you're going to say that the text is unambiguous, please 
quote<BR>said text. That makes the discussion much clearer.<BR><BR>&gt; The use 
of Notunderstood is limited to responses. Using it as you suggest<BR>&gt; is a 
protocol error.<BR><BR>Julian, I have to ask, what exactly do you think I'm 
suggesting? From<BR>parsing your sentence, I read that you are telling me that 
I'm suggesting<BR>using NotUnderstood outside its limited scope, of 
responses.<BR><BR>As I understand the situation I described, both parties think 
they are<BR>using NotUnderstood as a response. How is using it as a response 
outside<BR>its use as a response?<BR><BR>&gt; A repeated use will also violate 
the "no renegotiation rule".<BR><BR>Please be VERY VERY VERY careful when saying 
that. Have you thought about<BR>what the statement you just made will 
imply?<BR><BR>We are (or at least I started) talking about the case where one 
side<BR>THOUGHT it sent key X, but somehow it was key Y that made it to the 
other<BR>side. Be it a bug in the code on one side or the other, a PCI bus error 
in<BR>transfer, a router glitch, or what. Key Y doesn't exist in the spec, 
and<BR>it's in the negotiation stream. OGMarker or DataPDPInOrder would 
be<BR>examples.<BR><BR>The point is, BOTH SIDES THINK THEY ARE RESPONDING to a 
key they don't<BR>understand. Reading the spec, it succinctly states if you get 
a key you<BR>don't understand, you MUST reply "NotUnderstood".<BR><BR>Getting 
back to the "repeated use is a protocol violation," how is each<BR>side supposed 
to realize that they are seeing "OGMarker=NotUnderstood" for<BR>the second time, 
other than by remembering that it saw OGMarker as a<BR>not-understood key. i.e. 
by in addition to replying, "NotUnderstood", each<BR>side has to remember that 
it responded NotUnderstood to key foo. That<BR>seems unwise. I can think of at 
least one DoS attack if that really is<BR>what implementations 
do.<BR><BR>Getting back to addressing the topic of the thread, what is wrong 
with<BR>this text, slightly modified from the I proposed in the first 
message?<BR><BR>***<BR>Any key not understood by the acceptor may be ignored by 
the acceptor<BR>without affecting the basic function. However, unless the value 
for the<BR>key was "NotUnderstood", the answer for a key not understood MUST 
be<BR>key=NotUnderstood. The value "NotUnderstood" for a key not understood 
MUST<BR>be considered a protocol violation.<BR>***<BR><BR>As I said before, my 
main interest is the spec point out that if for a key<BR>you don't understand 
you get the value "NotUnderstood" (i.e. the other<BR>side is telling you it 
didn't understand a key that it turns out you also<BR>don't understand), you 
don't just answer "NotUnderstood". Either<BR>saying nothing, or considering it a 
protocol violation (since if we both<BR>didn't understand the key it should have 
never gotten into the<BR>negotiations) are both fine options. I now favor 
protocol violation as if<BR>neither side understood the key, it should not be 
there. If it's there,</FONT> <BR><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>something is 
wrong.<BR><BR>Take care,<BR><BR>Bill<BR><BR></FONT><BR><BR></BODY></HTML>

------_=_NextPart_001_01C24261.443BB5E0--

------=_NextPartTM-000-6b9111c0-e245-4959-9309-6bf0ad52a323--



From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Mon Aug 12 22:02:25 2002
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Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 18:40:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: Martins Krikis <mkrikis@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Problem with use of NotUnderstood in negotiations
To: pat_thaler@agilent.com, Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com,
        wrstuden@wasabisystems.com
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu
In-Reply-To: <1BEBA5E8600DD4119A50009027AF54A00D8EBFD7@axcs04.cos.agilent.com>
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I absolutely agree. I would not have posted what
I just posted had I known that this is on its way
to the list already. Very well said, Pat.

Martins Krikis, Intel Corp.

Disclaimer: my opinions and not necessarily Intel's.

--- pat_thaler@agilent.com wrote:

> Julian,
>  
> Saying that a violation of a rule is a protocol
> error is not the same as saying that the receiver
> must detect and react to the error. I don't think
> your suggested change to the text changes anything.
> If we want to say that receiving an offer for any
> key (even if the key is not understood) with a value
> of "Reject", "Irrelevant" or "NotUnderstood" MUST be
> detected and treated as a protocol failure, then a
> specific statement to that effect should be added.
>  
> Secondly, there is no requirement that
> re-negotiation MUST be detected. The specific text
> on renegotiation is (for login): 
> If an attempt to re-negotiate/redeclare parameters
> not specifically allowed is detected by the target
> the target MUST respond with Login reject (initiator
> error); if detected by the initiator the initiator
> MUST drop the connection.
> 
> The text for operational negotiation is similar
> except that the actions taken on detection are
> different.
>  
> It says "If an attempt ...is detected" which is
> entirely different than saying such attempts "MUST
> be detected". 
>  
> As Bill as pointed out, detecting re-negotiation of
> unknown parameters is onerous and I am very opposed
> to adding such a requirement. It adds unnecessary
> cost for minimal benefit. For the keys that are
> supported, on just needs a couple of bits per
> parameter to keep track of whether the state is
> unnegotiated, received offer, sent offer or
> negotiation complete and one may need that state
> even if one wasn't going to detect re-negotiation.
> Thus, it is pretty trivial to detect re-negotiation
> of supported keys. 
>  
> If someone wants to maliciously tie up a
> negotiation, they can do so by continuously offering
> new unknown keys and no working non-malicious
> implementation will keep offering the same key. One
> would have to save all
> received unsupported keys and each time an
> unsupported key was received it would have to be
> compared to the list. This is time and memory
> consuming and unnecessary. It isn't required by
> draft 15 and no such requirement should be added.
>  
> A simpler solution to concerns about the silent data
> corruption problem Bill identified is either 
>  
> 1) add in text requiring that an offer the value
> equal to NotUnderstood be detected as a protocol
> error even if the key is not supported/not
> understood
>  
> or 
>  
> 2) rely on timing out the negotiation if it doesn't
> complete after reasonable time or number of
> exchanges (definition of reasoanble left to the
> implementation probably).
>  
> Personally, I prefer number 2 because it will catch
> anything that hangs up a negotiation with one test.
> I don't know that we can find every corner case.
> Even if we could, it is better to have one test that
> digs us out for all corner case errors than to put
> in many specific tests.
>  
> However, number 1 would also be acceptable to me.
>  
> Regards,
> Pat


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From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Mon Aug 12 22:03:58 2002
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Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 18:32:58 -0700 (PDT)
From: Martins Krikis <mkrikis@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Problem with use of NotUnderstood in negotiations
To: ips@ece.cmu.edu
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--- Julian Satran <Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com> wrote:

> I am afraid you have to remember any key received
> just to avoid a rough 
> initiator/target knowingly send noise.
> You may also want to terminate a session with too
> many "NotUnderstood".

Alright, so I understood everything so far and do
realize that checking values for keys I don't
understand may let me notice a protocol error
quicker than by just returning NotUnderstood. 

I also think that the likelihood of this
problem occuring is so low that letting both sides
bounce back and forth the OGMarker=NotUnderstood
until they time out or reach negotiation round 
limits would be acceptable.

What I don't understand, however, is why I should
try to remember the keys that I don't understand.
What can possibly be gained from this? If the
other party is dumb enough to send me a key that
I don't understand twice, I don't mind noticing
the problem only after a timeout or a negotiation
round limit reached. And if the other side is 
simply just DoS-ing me, it can do it whether I am
remembering unknown keys or not. That possibility
was always in the protocol and there are no
good ways to guard against it. That's why a good
overall timeout or a limit on negotiation rounds
is needed.

Martins Krikis, Intel Corp.

Disclaimer: these opinions are mine and may not
            be those of my employer


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From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Tue Aug 13 02:52:49 2002
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Subject: iSCSI:Problem with use of NotUnderstood in negotiations
To: "Julian Satran" <Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com>
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu
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Isn't there a way to say that if you get a response of NotUnderstood, to a
key that you do not understand, or to a key that you did not offer, that it
is a protocol error.  That should stop the loop dead in its tracts.  It
could be stated on page 66.

The Pseudo Code would be,....do I understand the key, if not .... is
NotUnderstood its value ... if so protocol error!   (clearly if I do not
understand it, I did not offer it.)

.
.
.
John L. Hufferd
Senior Technical Staff Member (STSM)
IBM/SSG San Jose Ca
Main Office (408) 256-0403, Tie: 276-0403,  eFax: (408) 904-4688
Home Office (408) 997-6136, Cell: (408) 499-9702
Internet address: hufferd@us.ibm.com


"THALER,PAT (A-Roseville,ex1)" <pat_thaler@agilent.com>@ece.cmu.edu on
08/12/2002 01:08:31 PM

Sent by:    owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu


To:    Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL, ips@ece.cmu.edu
cc:
Subject:    RE: Problem with use of NotUnderstood in negotiations



Julian,

In the scenario, each device does use Notunderstood in a response.

A sends keyxxx
Silent data corruption occurs that changes keyxxx to keyxxy
B gets keyxxy and doesn't recognize it so it responds
keyxxy=Notunderstood
A gets that and thinks it is an offer of a key it doesn't understand
because it never sent keyxxy.
A therefore sends
keyxxy=Notunderstood
B gets keyxxy and doesn't recognize it so it responds
keyxxy=Notunderstood
.....

Regards,
Pat

-----Original Message-----
From: Julian Satran [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]
Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 9:24 PM
To: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: Problem with use of NotUnderstood in negotiations



Bill,

Perhaps the text is unabiguos but you just ignored the text that forbids
it.
The use of Notunderstood is limited to responses. Using it as you suggest
is a protocol error.
A repeated use will also violate the "no renegotiation rule".

Julo





                      Bill Studenmund
                      <wrstuden@wasabis        To:       Bart Crane
                      <bcrane@iready.com>
                      ystems.com>              cc:       <ips@ece.cmu.edu>
                      Sent by:                 Subject:  RE: Problem with
                      use of NotUnderstood in negotiations
                      owner-ips@ece.cmu
                      .edu


                      08/10/2002 02:22
                      AM





On Fri, 9 Aug 2002, Bart Crane wrote:

?? In the scenario I describe, neither side believes it offered the key.

> Thus, there is no need to add another rule regarding not-responding to
> keys with NotUnderstood as a value, because a key with that value is
> a protocol error.
>
> This could be made more explicit, but there does not seem to be any
> ambiguity.

There obviously is ambiguity. The fact we're having this discussion is
proof. :-)

I'd support saying this case is a protocol error, since it means something
neither side understands got into the stream (and chances are an offer got
removed). But I think adding an explicit direction as to what to do is
needed.

Take care,

Bill










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Subject: RE: Problem with use of NotUnderstood in negotiations
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From: "Julian Satran" <Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com>
Message-ID: <OF57CEF5EA.3A84219A-ONC2256C14.00236237@telaviv.ibm.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:02:54 +0300
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Pat,

I don't know what "silent data corruption is". The protocol is not built 
for this type of errors.
Other than that you observe correctly that we do not mandate the receiver 
to check for every 
protocol error. However if it does not it has to implement some other 
means of protecting itself.
None of the things that where suggested as protection are (or should be) 
mandatory.
As for the count/timeout we may want to add to 4.2:

A negotiation must end in within a reasonable time and/or number of 
exchanges.

as well as add to 8.3

Text negotiations may be also subject to either time-limits or lim-its in 
the number of exchanges. Those should be generous enough to avoid 
affecting interoperability (e.g., allowing each key to be nego-tiated on a 
separate exchange).

Julo





pat_thaler@agilent.com
Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
08/13/2002 03:35 AM

 
        To:     Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL, wrstuden@wasabisystems.com
        cc:     ips@ece.cmu.edu
        Subject:        RE: Problem with use of NotUnderstood in negotiations

 

Julian,
 
Saying that a violation of a rule is a protocol error is not the same as 
saying that the receiver must detect and react to the error. I don't think 
your suggested change to the text changes anything. If we want to say that 
receiving an offer for any key (even if the key is not understood) with a 
value of "Reject", "Irrelevant" or "NotUnderstood" MUST be detected and 
treated as a protocol failure, then a specific statement to that effect 
should be added.
 
Secondly, there is no requirement that re-negotiation MUST be detected. 
The specific text on renegotiation is (for login): 
If an attempt to re-negotiate/redeclare parameters not specifically 
allowed is detected by the target the target MUST respond with Login 
reject (initiator error); if detected by the initiator the initiator MUST 
drop the connection.
The text for operational negotiation is similar except that the actions 
taken on detection are different.
 
It says "If an attempt ...is detected" which is entirely different than 
saying such attempts "MUST be detected". 
 
As Bill as pointed out, detecting re-negotiation of unknown parameters is 
onerous and I am very opposed to adding such a requirement. It adds 
unnecessary cost for minimal benefit. For the keys that are supported, on 
just needs a couple of bits per parameter to keep track of whether the 
state is unnegotiated, received offer, sent offer or negotiation complete 
and one may need that state even if one wasn't going to detect 
re-negotiation. Thus, it is pretty trivial to detect re-negotiation of 
supported keys. 
 
If someone wants to maliciously tie up a negotiation, they can do so by 
continuously offering new unknown keys and no working non-malicious 
implementation will keep offering the same key. One would have to save all
received unsupported keys and each time an unsupported key was received it 
would have to be compared to the list. This is time and memory consuming 
and unnecessary. It isn't required by draft 15 and no such requirement 
should be added.
 
A simpler solution to concerns about the silent data corruption problem 
Bill identified is either 
 
1) add in text requiring that an offer the value equal to NotUnderstood be 
detected as a protocol error even if the key is not supported/not 
understood
 
or 
 
2) rely on timing out the negotiation if it doesn't complete after 
reasonable time or number of exchanges (definition of reasoanble left to 
the implementation probably).
 
Personally, I prefer number 2 because it will catch anything that hangs up 
a negotiation with one test. I don't know that we can find every corner 
case. Even if we could, it is better to have one test that digs us out for 
all corner case errors than to put in many specific tests.
 
However, number 1 would also be acceptable to me.
 
Regards,
Pat
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Julian Satran [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]
Sent: Saturday, August 10, 2002 9:40 PM
To: Bill Studenmund
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: Problem with use of NotUnderstood in negotiations


Bill, 

My only intention in the note was to be brief.  If you viewed that as rude 
I am really sorry. 
I have a lot of mail to reply to and a limited time. 

As for the crux of the matter - if one of the parties receives a key it 
has not seen before 
with NotUnderstood as value it MUST act on it as a protocol error. The 
text is unambiguous on this. 
However we may want to strengthen the rule in 4 (and add another line of 
text) as follows: 

The constants "None", "Reject", "Irrelevant", and "NotUnderstood" are 
reserved and MUST ONLY be used as described here. Violation of this rule 
is a protocol error (in particular the use of "Reject", "Irrele-vant", and 
"NotUnderstood" as proposed values). 

In the second part of my comment I was just saying that if you  failed to 
implement the above check you still can't enter a loop 
because the double negotiation rule. 

To get you in a loop in which every party think it answers - then either 
both are buggy or somebody is altering the messages maliciously. 
The protocol is not designed to handle either. 

Julo 



Bill Studenmund <wrstuden@wasabisystems.com> 
08/11/2002 06:11 AM 
        
        To:        Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL 
        cc:        <ips@ece.cmu.edu> 
        Subject:        RE: Problem with use of NotUnderstood in 
negotiations 

 


On Sat, 10 Aug 2002, Julian Satran wrote:

> Bill,
>
> Perhaps the text is unabiguos but you just ignored the text that forbids
> it.

Julian,

I must say that the tone above is very unbecoming of the author of a
protocol spec. In the past, I've often gotten snippy comments from you,
but written them off to, well, I'm not sure what. But it seems that you
really don't listen to what I say. You read a message, make an
interpretation, do not question that interpretation, and then you run with
it. That's really bad. Besides being quite rude and exceedingly arrogant,
you'll miss things. And the iSCSI spec will suffer for it. Do you think
whatever is going on between us worth more than a bad iSCSI spec? I don't.

Also, if you're going to say that the text is unambiguous, please quote
said text. That makes the discussion much clearer.

> The use of Notunderstood is limited to responses. Using it as you 
suggest
> is a protocol error.

Julian, I have to ask, what exactly do you think I'm suggesting? From
parsing your sentence, I read that you are telling me that I'm suggesting
using NotUnderstood outside its limited scope, of responses.

As I understand the situation I described, both parties think they are
using NotUnderstood as a response. How is using it as a response outside
its use as a response?

> A repeated use will also violate the "no renegotiation rule".

Please be VERY VERY VERY careful when saying that. Have you thought about
what the statement you just made will imply?

We are (or at least I started) talking about the case where one side
THOUGHT it sent key X, but somehow it was key Y that made it to the other
side. Be it a bug in the code on one side or the other, a PCI bus error in
transfer, a router glitch, or what. Key Y doesn't exist in the spec, and
it's in the negotiation stream. OGMarker or DataPDPInOrder would be
examples.

The point is, BOTH SIDES THINK THEY ARE RESPONDING to a key they don't
understand. Reading the spec, it succinctly states if you get a key you
don't understand, you MUST reply "NotUnderstood".

Getting back to the "repeated use is a protocol violation," how is each
side supposed to realize that they are seeing "OGMarker=NotUnderstood" for
the second time, other than by remembering that it saw OGMarker as a
not-understood key. i.e. by in addition to replying, "NotUnderstood", each
side has to remember that it responded NotUnderstood to key foo. That
seems unwise. I can think of at least one DoS attack if that really is
what implementations do.

Getting back to addressing the topic of the thread, what is wrong with
this text, slightly modified from the I proposed in the first message?

***
Any key not understood by the acceptor may be ignored by the acceptor
without affecting the basic function. However, unless the value for the
key was "NotUnderstood", the answer for a key not understood MUST be
key=NotUnderstood. The value "NotUnderstood" for a key not understood MUST
be considered a protocol violation.
***

As I said before, my main interest is the spec point out that if for a key
you don't understand you get the value "NotUnderstood" (i.e. the other
side is telling you it didn't understand a key that it turns out you also
don't understand), you don't just answer "NotUnderstood". Either
saying nothing, or considering it a protocol violation (since if we both
didn't understand the key it should have never gotten into the
negotiations) are both fine options. I now favor protocol violation as if
neither side understood the key, it should not be there. If it's there, 
something is wrong.

Take care,

Bill





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<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Pat,</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">I don't know what &quot;silent data corruption is&quot;. The protocol is not built for this type of errors.</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Other than that you observe correctly that we do not mandate the receiver to check for every </font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">protocol error. However if it does not it has to implement some other means of protecting itself.</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">None of the things that where suggested as protection are (or should be) mandatory.</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">As for the count/timeout we may want to add to 4.2:</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="Courier New">A negotiation must end in within a reasonable time and/or number of exchanges.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">as well as add to 8.3</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="Courier New">Text negotiations may be also subject to either time-limits or lim-its in the number of exchanges. Those should be generous enough to avoid affecting interoperability (e.g., allowing each key to be nego-tiated on a separate exchange).</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Julo</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>pat_thaler@agilent.com</b></font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu</font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">08/13/2002 03:35 AM</font>
<br>
<td><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL, wrstuden@wasabisystems.com</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;ips@ece.cmu.edu</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;RE: Problem with use of NotUnderstood in negotiations</font>
<br>
<br><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font></table>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="Arial">Julian,</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Arial">Saying that a violation of a rule is a protocol error is not the same as saying that the receiver must detect and react to the error. I don't think your suggested change to the text changes anything. If we want to say that receiving an offer for any key (even if the key is not understood) with a value of &quot;Reject&quot;, &quot;Irrelevant&quot; or &quot;NotUnderstood&quot; MUST be detected and treated as a protocol failure, then a specific statement to that effect should be added.</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Arial">Secondly, there is no requirement that re-negotiation MUST be detected. The specific text on renegotiation is (for login): </font>
<p><font size=2 face="Courier">If an attempt to re-negotiate/redeclare parameters not specifically allowed is detected by the target the target MUST respond with Login reject (initiator error); if detected by the initiator the initiator MUST drop the connection.</font>
<p><font size=2 face="Arial">The text for operational negotiation is similar except that the actions taken on detection are different.</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Arial">It says &quot;If an attempt ...is detected&quot; which is entirely different than saying such attempts &quot;MUST be detected&quot;. </font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Arial">As Bill as pointed out, detecting re-negotiation of unknown parameters is onerous and I am very opposed to adding such a requirement. It adds unnecessary cost for minimal benefit. For the keys that are supported, on just needs a couple of bits per parameter to keep track of whether the state is unnegotiated, received offer, sent offer or negotiation complete and one may need that state even if one wasn't going to detect re-negotiation. Thus, it is pretty trivial to detect re-negotiation of supported keys. </font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Arial">If someone wants to maliciously tie up a negotiation, they can do so by continuously offering new unknown keys and no working non-malicious implementation will keep offering the same key. One would have to save all</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Arial">received unsupported keys and each time an unsupported key was received it would have to be compared to the list. This is time and memory consuming and unnecessary. It isn't required by draft 15 and no such requirement should be added.</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Arial">A simpler solution to concerns about the silent data corruption problem Bill identified is either </font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Arial">1) add in text requiring that an offer the value equal to NotUnderstood be detected as a protocol error even if the key is not supported/not understood</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Arial">or </font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Arial">2) rely on timing out the negotiation if it doesn't complete after reasonable time or number of exchanges (definition of reasoanble left to the implementation probably).</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Arial">Personally, I prefer number 2 because it will catch anything that hangs up a negotiation with one test. I don't know that we can find every corner case. Even if we could, it is better to have one test that digs us out for all corner case errors than to put in many specific tests.</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Arial">However, number 1 would also be acceptable to me.</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Arial">Regards,</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Arial">Pat</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Tahoma">-----Original Message-----<b><br>
From:</b> Julian Satran [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]<b><br>
Sent:</b> Saturday, August 10, 2002 9:40 PM<b><br>
To:</b> Bill Studenmund<b><br>
Cc:</b> ips@ece.cmu.edu<b><br>
Subject:</b> RE: Problem with use of NotUnderstood in negotiations<br>
</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
Bill,</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
</font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
My only intention in the note was to be brief. &nbsp;If you viewed that as rude I am really sorry.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
I have a lot of mail to reply to and a limited time.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
</font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
As for the crux of the matter - if one of the parties receives a key it has not seen before</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
with NotUnderstood as value it MUST act on it as a protocol error. The text is unambiguous on this.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
However we may want to strengthen the rule in 4 (and add another line of text) as follows:</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
</font><font size=3 face="Courier New"><br>
The constants &quot;None&quot;, &quot;Reject&quot;, &quot;Irrelevant&quot;, and &quot;NotUnderstood&quot; are reserved and MUST ONLY be used as described here. Violation of this rule is a protocol error (in particular the use of &quot;Reject&quot;, &quot;Irrele-vant&quot;, and &quot;NotUnderstood&quot; as proposed values).</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
</font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
In the second part of my comment I was just saying that if you &nbsp;failed to implement the above check you still can't enter a loop</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
because the double negotiation rule.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
</font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
To get you in a loop in which every party think it answers - then either both are buggy or somebody is altering the messages maliciously.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
The protocol is not designed to handle either.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
</font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
Julo</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
<br>
</font>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td width=2%>
<td width=44%><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>Bill Studenmund &lt;wrstuden@wasabisystems.com&gt;</b></font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">08/11/2002 06:11 AM</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<td width=53%><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </font><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&lt;ips@ece.cmu.edu&gt;</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;RE: Problem with use of NotUnderstood in negotiations</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
</font><font size=1 face="Arial"><br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </font></table>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><br>
</font><font size=2 face="Courier New"><br>
On Sat, 10 Aug 2002, Julian Satran wrote:<br>
<br>
&gt; Bill,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Perhaps the text is unabiguos but you just ignored the text that forbids<br>
&gt; it.<br>
<br>
Julian,<br>
<br>
I must say that the tone above is very unbecoming of the author of a<br>
protocol spec. In the past, I've often gotten snippy comments from you,<br>
but written them off to, well, I'm not sure what. But it seems that you<br>
really don't listen to what I say. You read a message, make an<br>
interpretation, do not question that interpretation, and then you run with<br>
it. That's really bad. Besides being quite rude and exceedingly arrogant,<br>
you'll miss things. And the iSCSI spec will suffer for it. Do you think<br>
whatever is going on between us worth more than a bad iSCSI spec? I don't.<br>
<br>
Also, if you're going to say that the text is unambiguous, please quote<br>
said text. That makes the discussion much clearer.<br>
<br>
&gt; The use of Notunderstood is limited to responses. Using it as you suggest<br>
&gt; is a protocol error.<br>
<br>
Julian, I have to ask, what exactly do you think I'm suggesting? From<br>
parsing your sentence, I read that you are telling me that I'm suggesting<br>
using NotUnderstood outside its limited scope, of responses.<br>
<br>
As I understand the situation I described, both parties think they are<br>
using NotUnderstood as a response. How is using it as a response outside<br>
its use as a response?<br>
<br>
&gt; A repeated use will also violate the &quot;no renegotiation rule&quot;.<br>
<br>
Please be VERY VERY VERY careful when saying that. Have you thought about<br>
what the statement you just made will imply?<br>
<br>
We are (or at least I started) talking about the case where one side<br>
THOUGHT it sent key X, but somehow it was key Y that made it to the other<br>
side. Be it a bug in the code on one side or the other, a PCI bus error in<br>
transfer, a router glitch, or what. Key Y doesn't exist in the spec, and<br>
it's in the negotiation stream. OGMarker or DataPDPInOrder would be<br>
examples.<br>
<br>
The point is, BOTH SIDES THINK THEY ARE RESPONDING to a key they don't<br>
understand. Reading the spec, it succinctly states if you get a key you<br>
don't understand, you MUST reply &quot;NotUnderstood&quot;.<br>
<br>
Getting back to the &quot;repeated use is a protocol violation,&quot; how is each<br>
side supposed to realize that they are seeing &quot;OGMarker=NotUnderstood&quot; for<br>
the second time, other than by remembering that it saw OGMarker as a<br>
not-understood key. i.e. by in addition to replying, &quot;NotUnderstood&quot;, each<br>
side has to remember that it responded NotUnderstood to key foo. That<br>
seems unwise. I can think of at least one DoS attack if that really is<br>
what implementations do.<br>
<br>
Getting back to addressing the topic of the thread, what is wrong with<br>
this text, slightly modified from the I proposed in the first message?<br>
<br>
***<br>
Any key not understood by the acceptor may be ignored by the acceptor<br>
without affecting the basic function. However, unless the value for the<br>
key was &quot;NotUnderstood&quot;, the answer for a key not understood MUST be<br>
key=NotUnderstood. The value &quot;NotUnderstood&quot; for a key not understood MUST<br>
be considered a protocol violation.<br>
***<br>
<br>
As I said before, my main interest is the spec point out that if for a key<br>
you don't understand you get the value &quot;NotUnderstood&quot; (i.e. the other<br>
side is telling you it didn't understand a key that it turns out you also<br>
don't understand), you don't just answer &quot;NotUnderstood&quot;. Either<br>
saying nothing, or considering it a protocol violation (since if we both<br>
didn't understand the key it should have never gotten into the<br>
negotiations) are both fine options. I now favor protocol violation as if<br>
neither side understood the key, it should not be there. If it's there,</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Courier New"><br>
something is wrong.<br>
<br>
Take care,<br>
<br>
Bill<br>
</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><br>
<br>
</font>
<br>
<br>
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Subject: Re: iSCSI:Problem with use of NotUnderstood in negotiations
X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.9  November 16, 2001
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The (valid) point that Pat was making is that we do not request the 
receiver to check for every protocol error and it would
be advisable to say something about a "blanket" protection.

I have proposed a text for this in my previous note.
Again neither this nor the protocol errors are mandatory - but  a wise
implementer will do something.

Thanks,
Julo




John Hufferd@IBMUS
08/13/2002 09:13 AM


        To:     Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL@IBMDE
        cc:     ips@ece.cmu.edu
        From:   John Hufferd/San Jose/IBM@IBMUS
        Subject:        iSCSI:Problem with use of NotUnderstood in negotiations
 





Isn't there a way to say that if you get a response of NotUnderstood, to a 
key that you do not understand, or to a key that you did not offer, that 
it is a protocol error.  That should stop the loop dead in its tracts.  It 
could be stated on page 66.

The Pseudo Code would be,....do I understand the key, if not .... is 
NotUnderstood its value ... if so protocol error!   (clearly if I do not 
understand it, I did not offer it.)

.
.
.
John L. Hufferd
Senior Technical Staff Member (STSM)
IBM/SSG San Jose Ca
Main Office (408) 256-0403, Tie: 276-0403,  eFax: (408) 904-4688
Home Office (408) 997-6136, Cell: (408) 499-9702
Internet address: hufferd@us.ibm.com

Sent by:        owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
To:     Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL, ips@ece.cmu.edu
cc: 
Subject:        RE: Problem with use of NotUnderstood in negotiations



Julian,

In the scenario, each device does use Notunderstood in a response.

A sends keyxxx
Silent data corruption occurs that changes keyxxx to keyxxy
B gets keyxxy and doesn't recognize it so it responds
keyxxy=Notunderstood
A gets that and thinks it is an offer of a key it doesn't understand 
because it never sent keyxxy.
A therefore sends
keyxxy=Notunderstood
B gets keyxxy and doesn't recognize it so it responds
keyxxy=Notunderstood
.....

Regards,
Pat

-----Original Message-----
From: Julian Satran [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]
Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 9:24 PM
To: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: Problem with use of NotUnderstood in negotiations



Bill,

Perhaps the text is unabiguos but you just ignored the text that forbids
it.
The use of Notunderstood is limited to responses. Using it as you suggest
is a protocol error.
A repeated use will also violate the "no renegotiation rule".

Julo





Bill Studenmund
<wrstuden@wasabis        To:       Bart Crane <bcrane@iready.com>
ystems.com>              cc:       <ips@ece.cmu.edu>
Sent by:                 Subject:  RE: Problem with use of NotUnderstood 
in negotiations
owner-ips@ece.cmu
.edu


08/10/2002 02:22
AM





On Fri, 9 Aug 2002, Bart Crane wrote:

?? In the scenario I describe, neither side believes it offered the key.

> Thus, there is no need to add another rule regarding not-responding to
> keys with NotUnderstood as a value, because a key with that value is
> a protocol error.
>
> This could be made more explicit, but there does not seem to be any
> ambiguity.

There obviously is ambiguity. The fact we're having this discussion is
proof. :-)

I'd support saying this case is a protocol error, since it means something
neither side understands got into the stream (and chances are an offer got
removed). But I think adding an explicit direction as to what to do is
needed.

Take care,

Bill








--=_alternative 0026BB7BC2256C14_=
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"


<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">The (valid) point that Pat was making is that we do not request the receiver to check for every protocol error and it would</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">be advisable to say something about a &quot;blanket&quot; protection.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">I have proposed a text for this in my previous note.</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Again neither this nor the protocol errors are mandatory - but &nbsp;a wise</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">implementer will do something.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Thanks,</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Julo</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>John Hufferd@IBMUS</b></font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">08/13/2002 09:13 AM</font>
<br>
<td>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL@IBMDE</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;ips@ece.cmu.edu</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; From: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;John Hufferd/San Jose/IBM@IBMUS</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;iSCSI:Problem with use of NotUnderstood in negotiations</font><a href=Notes:///C225670D0041573F/38D46BF5E8F08834852564B500129B2C/301D94E82CAEF4C887256C130070D51E>Link</a>
<br><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; </font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br></table>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Isn't there a way to say that if you get a response of NotUnderstood, to a key that you do not understand, or to a key that you did not offer, that it is a protocol error. &nbsp;That should stop the loop dead in its tracts. &nbsp;It could be stated on page 66.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">The Pseudo Code would be,....do I understand the key, if not .... is NotUnderstood its value ... if so protocol error! &nbsp; (clearly if I do not understand it, I did not offer it.)<br>
<br>
.<br>
.<br>
.<br>
John L. Hufferd<br>
Senior Technical Staff Member (STSM)<br>
IBM/SSG San Jose Ca<br>
Main Office (408) 256-0403, Tie: 276-0403, &nbsp;eFax: (408) 904-4688<br>
Home Office (408) 997-6136, Cell: (408) 499-9702<br>
Internet address: hufferd@us.ibm.com<br>
</font>
<p><font size=1 color=#800080 face="sans-serif">Sent by: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu</font>
<p><font size=1 color=#800080 face="sans-serif">To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL, ips@ece.cmu.edu</font>
<br><font size=1 color=#800080 face="sans-serif">cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </font>
<br><font size=1 color=#800080 face="sans-serif">Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font><font size=1 face="sans-serif">RE: Problem with use of NotUnderstood in negotiations</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br><font size=2><tt>Julian,<br>
</tt></font>
<br><font size=2><tt>In the scenario, each device does use Notunderstood in a response.<br>
</tt></font>
<br><font size=2><tt>A sends keyxxx<br>
Silent data corruption occurs that changes keyxxx to keyxxy<br>
B gets keyxxy and doesn't recognize it so it responds<br>
keyxxy=Notunderstood<br>
A gets that and thinks it is an offer of a key it doesn't understand because it never sent keyxxy.<br>
A therefore sends<br>
keyxxy=Notunderstood<br>
B gets keyxxy and doesn't recognize it so it responds<br>
keyxxy=Notunderstood<br>
.....<br>
</tt></font>
<br><font size=2><tt>Regards,<br>
Pat<br>
</tt></font>
<br><font size=2><tt>-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Julian Satran [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]<br>
Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 9:24 PM<br>
To: ips@ece.cmu.edu<br>
Subject: RE: Problem with use of NotUnderstood in negotiations<br>
</tt></font>
<br>
<br>
<br><font size=2><tt>Bill,<br>
</tt></font>
<br><font size=2><tt>Perhaps the text is unabiguos but you just ignored the text that forbids<br>
it.<br>
The use of Notunderstood is limited to responses. Using it as you suggest<br>
is a protocol error.<br>
A repeated use will also violate the &quot;no renegotiation rule&quot;.<br>
</tt></font>
<br><font size=2><tt>Julo<br>
</tt></font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br><font size=2><tt>Bill Studenmund<br>
&lt;wrstuden@wasabis &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Bart Crane &lt;bcrane@iready.com&gt;<br>
ystems.com&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;ips@ece.cmu.edu&gt;<br>
Sent by: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subject: &nbsp;RE: Problem with use of NotUnderstood in negotiations<br>
owner-ips@ece.cmu<br>
.edu</tt></font>
<br>
<br>
<br><font size=2><tt>08/10/2002 02:22<br>
AM</tt></font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br><font size=2><tt>On Fri, 9 Aug 2002, Bart Crane wrote:<br>
</tt></font>
<br><font size=2><tt>?? In the scenario I describe, neither side believes it offered the key.<br>
</tt></font>
<br><font size=2><tt>&gt; Thus, there is no need to add another rule regarding not-responding to<br>
&gt; keys with NotUnderstood as a value, because a key with that value is<br>
&gt; a protocol error.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; This could be made more explicit, but there does not seem to be any<br>
&gt; ambiguity.<br>
</tt></font>
<br><font size=2><tt>There obviously is ambiguity. The fact we're having this discussion is<br>
proof. :-)<br>
</tt></font>
<br><font size=2><tt>I'd support saying this case is a protocol error, since it means something<br>
neither side understands got into the stream (and chances are an offer got<br>
removed). But I think adding an explicit direction as to what to do is<br>
needed.<br>
</tt></font>
<br><font size=2><tt>Take care,<br>
</tt></font>
<br><font size=2><tt>Bill<br>
</tt></font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
--=_alternative 0026BB7BC2256C14_=--


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Tue Aug 13 07:41:24 2002
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Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 06:07:09 -0500
From: Ralph Weber <ralphoweber@compuserve.com>
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To: Murali Rajagopal <muralir@cox.net>, Chong Peng <ChongPeng@MaXXan.com>,
        ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: questions about fcip
References: <BMEMKGJGDIECPINNKIGEAEIJDFAA.muralir@cox.net>
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The answer provided for question 2 contains too many letters.

The FC Entity distributes traffic among the multiple TCP
connections (if any).

The distinction is based on the fact that only the FC Entity
has enough knowledge to do the distribution. Also, this is
the reason no suggestions regarding how to do the distribution
are provided in FCIP.

.Ralph

Murali Rajagopal wrote:

>
>
> Question 1:  Why would a FCIP link need multiple TCP connections?
> Following text extracted from Section 11.1 provides some motivations for
> multiple TCP connections.
>
> " ....
> Depending on the sophistication of the FC Entity, further value may be
> obtained by having multiple TCP Connections with differing QoS
> characteristics.
>
> There are many reasons why an FC Entity might request creation of multiple
> TCP Connections within an FCIP_LEP. These reasons include a desire to
> provide differentiated service for different TCP data connections between
> FCIP_LEPs or a preference to separately queue different streams of traffic
> not having a common in-order delivery requirement. ...."
>
> Question 2. If there are multiple TCP connections in a FCIP link, which
> entity is responsible for distributing  traffic among them?
>
> The FCIP Entity.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu [mailto:owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu]On Behalf Of
> Chong Peng
> Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 4:02 PM
> To: ips@ece.cmu.edu
> Subject: questions about fcip
>
> FCIP gurus:
>
> The FCIP protocol allows one FCIP link have multiple TCP connection. I have
> two questions about this:
>
> 1. Why would a FCIP link need multiple TCP connections?
> 2. If there are multiple TCP connections in a FCIP link, which entity is
> responsible for distributing  traffic among them.
>
> Chong Peng
>
> This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may
> contain confidential information. Any unauthorized use; review, disclosure
> or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please
> contact the sender by return email and destroy all copies of the original
> message.
> Copyright © 2002 MaXXan Systems, Inc. All rights reserved.




From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Tue Aug 13 10:14:51 2002
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Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 09:32:25 -0400
From: Paul Koning <ni1d@arrl.net>
To: mkrikis@yahoo.com
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: Problem with use of NotUnderstood in negotiations
References: <OF6FE12550.CE42FDEA-ONC2256C12.001E2542@telaviv.ibm.com>
	<20020813013258.61239.qmail@web13702.mail.yahoo.com>
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>>>>> "Martins" == Martins Krikis <mkrikis@yahoo.com> writes:

 Martins> --- Julian Satran <Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com> wrote:
 >> I am afraid you have to remember any key received just to avoid a
 >> rough initiator/target knowingly send noise.  You may also want to
 >> terminate a session with too many "NotUnderstood".

 Martins> What I don't understand, however, is why I should try to
 Martins> remember the keys that I don't understand.  What can
 Martins> possibly be gained from this? If the other party is dumb
 Martins> enough to send me a key that I don't understand twice, I
 Martins> don't mind noticing the problem only after a timeout or a
 Martins> negotiation round limit reached. And if the other side is
 Martins> simply just DoS-ing me, it can do it whether I am
 Martins> remembering unknown keys or not. 

Agreed.

It is quite unreasonable to require a pile of extra overhead that ONLY
does anything if the other side is actively malicious.  Robustness in
the presence of Byzantine failure was never in the iSCSI requirements,
nor as far as I know is it in the requirements of ANY IETF protocol.

    paul



From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Tue Aug 13 11:03:18 2002
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Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 05:18:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Prashanth.C.A. Shetty" <prashanth_ca@yahoo.com>
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Hello All,
    As per the draft definition of F-bit explained in
the iSCSI SCSI command PDU section..."F-bit should be
set to 1 when no unsolicited data follow the command
PDU".
    My interpretation of the above statement is: 
    F-bit in the command PDU is to be set to 1 by the
initiator only if solicited data needs to be sent to
the Target and should be zero for Unsolicited data
transfer.

    My question:
    If I need to send only immediate
data:..[dataxferlen <=
MaxRecvPduLen,InitalR2t=True,ImmediateData=True]....What
should be the F-bit set to????.
    Should it be set to ZERO[because IMMEDIATE DATA
ONLY[InitialR2t=True,ImmediateData=True] falls as one
of unsolicited data transfer type] or should it be set
to ONE[because no unsolicited data follows the command
PDU]????
    
Regards,
Prashanth

__________________________________________________
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From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Tue Aug 13 11:05:11 2002
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--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the IP Storage Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: Internet Storage Name Service (iSNS)
	Author(s)	: J. Tseng, K. Gibbons
	Filename	: draft-ietf-ips-isns-12.txt
	Pages		: 89
	Date		: 12-Aug-02
	
This document specifies the iSNS protocol, which is used for
interaction between iSNS servers and iSNS clients in order to
facilitate automated discovery, management, and configuration of
iSCSI and Fibre Channel (FCP) devices on a TCP/IP network.  iSNS
provides intelligent storage discovery and management services
comparable to those found in Fibre Channel networks, allowing a
commodity IP network to function in a similar capacity as a storage
area network.  iSNS also facilitates a seamless integration of IP
and Fibre Channel networks, due to its ability to emulate Fibre
Channel fabric services, and manage both iSCSI and Fibre Channel
devices.  iSNS thereby provides value in any storage network
comprised of iSCSI devices, Fibre Channel devices, or any
combination thereof.

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From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Tue Aug 13 11:05:21 2002
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Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 05:20:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Prashanth.C.A. Shetty" <prashanth_ca@yahoo.com>
Subject: About F-bit in ISCSI Scsi command PDU
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Hello All,
    As per the draft definition of F-bit explained in
the iSCSI SCSI command PDU section..."F-bit should be
set to 1 when no unsolicited data follow the command
PDU".
    My interpretation of the above statement is:
    F-bit in the command PDU is to be set to 1 by the
initiator only if solicited data needs to be sent to
the Target and should be zero for Unsolicited data
transfer.
    My question:
    If I need to send only immediate
data:..[dataxferlen <=
MaxRecvPduLen,InitalR2t=True,ImmediateData=True]....What
should be the F-bit set to????.
    Should it be set to ZERO[because IMMEDIATE DATA
ONLY[InitialR2t=True,ImmediateData=True] falls as one
of unsolicited data transfer type] or should it be set
to ONE[because no unsolicited data follows the command
PDU]????
   
Regards,
Prashanth

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From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Tue Aug 13 13:10:04 2002
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From: pat_thaler@agilent.com
To: Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com, pat_thaler@agilent.com
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu, owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu, wrstuden@wasabisystems.com
Subject: RE: Problem with use of NotUnderstood in negotiations
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:28:07 -0600
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Julian,
 
Silent data corruption is when errors change the data in a way that is not detectable. It should be a rare event in a well designed system but it does occasionally occur. For iSCSI, silent data corruption would require:
 
Error changes the payload such that the link layer CRC check passes (very low probablility - roughly 
(BER^3)*2^32) or the error occurs when the payload is not protected by link layer CRC (e.g. soft memory errors while in switch/router memory).
AND
TCP checksum escape (TCP checksum matches the corrupt data)
 
Once in operational mode, we have the option of using digest to put a further barrier against silent data corruption. We have designed at least some protocol options (digests) for dealing with checksum escape.
 
I think the approach you suggest for dealing with this is appropriate. 
Shouldn't this condition also be added to the list of errors in 5.10 Negotiation Failures?
 
For the text in 4.2, it isn't clear what the must applies to. One might use:
 
An iSCSI device MAY terminate a negotiation which does not end within a reasonable time or number of exchanges.
 
For 8.3 it looks like MAY and SHOULD should be upper case.
 
Regards,
Pat
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Julian Satran [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2002 12:03 AM
To: pat_thaler@agilent.com
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu; owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu; wrstuden@wasabisystems.com
Subject: RE: Problem with use of NotUnderstood in negotiations



Pat, 

I don't know what "silent data corruption is". The protocol is not built for this type of errors. 
Other than that you observe correctly that we do not mandate the receiver to check for every 
protocol error. However if it does not it has to implement some other means of protecting itself. 
None of the things that where suggested as protection are (or should be) mandatory. 
As for the count/timeout we may want to add to 4.2: 

A negotiation must end in within a reasonable time and/or number of exchanges. 

as well as add to 8.3 

Text negotiations may be also subject to either time-limits or lim-its in the number of exchanges. Those should be generous enough to avoid affecting interoperability (e.g., allowing each key to be nego-tiated on a separate exchange). 

Julo 




	pat_thaler@agilent.com 
Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu 


08/13/2002 03:35 AM 


        
        To:        Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL, wrstuden@wasabisystems.com 
        cc:        ips@ece.cmu.edu 
        Subject:        RE: Problem with use of NotUnderstood in negotiations 

       


Julian, 
  
Saying that a violation of a rule is a protocol error is not the same as saying that the receiver must detect and react to the error. I don't think your suggested change to the text changes anything. If we want to say that receiving an offer for any key (even if the key is not understood) with a value of "Reject", "Irrelevant" or "NotUnderstood" MUST be detected and treated as a protocol failure, then a specific statement to that effect should be added. 
  
Secondly, there is no requirement that re-negotiation MUST be detected. The specific text on renegotiation is (for login): 

If an attempt to re-negotiate/redeclare parameters not specifically allowed is detected by the target the target MUST respond with Login reject (initiator error); if detected by the initiator the initiator MUST drop the connection. 


The text for operational negotiation is similar except that the actions taken on detection are different. 
  
It says "If an attempt ...is detected" which is entirely different than saying such attempts "MUST be detected". 
  
As Bill as pointed out, detecting re-negotiation of unknown parameters is onerous and I am very opposed to adding such a requirement. It adds unnecessary cost for minimal benefit. For the keys that are supported, on just needs a couple of bits per parameter to keep track of whether the state is unnegotiated, received offer, sent offer or negotiation complete and one may need that state even if one wasn't going to detect re-negotiation. Thus, it is pretty trivial to detect re-negotiation of supported keys. 
  
If someone wants to maliciously tie up a negotiation, they can do so by continuously offering new unknown keys and no working non-malicious implementation will keep offering the same key. One would have to save all 
received unsupported keys and each time an unsupported key was received it would have to be compared to the list. This is time and memory consuming and unnecessary. It isn't required by draft 15 and no such requirement should be added. 
  
A simpler solution to concerns about the silent data corruption problem Bill identified is either 
  
1) add in text requiring that an offer the value equal to NotUnderstood be detected as a protocol error even if the key is not supported/not understood 
  
or 
  
2) rely on timing out the negotiation if it doesn't complete after reasonable time or number of exchanges (definition of reasoanble left to the implementation probably). 
  
Personally, I prefer number 2 because it will catch anything that hangs up a negotiation with one test. I don't know that we can find every corner case. Even if we could, it is better to have one test that digs us out for all corner case errors than to put in many specific tests. 
  
However, number 1 would also be acceptable to me. 
  
Regards, 
Pat 
  
-----Original Message-----
From: Julian Satran [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]
Sent: Saturday, August 10, 2002 9:40 PM
To: Bill Studenmund
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: Problem with use of NotUnderstood in negotiations


Bill, 

My only intention in the note was to be brief.  If you viewed that as rude I am really sorry. 
I have a lot of mail to reply to and a limited time. 

As for the crux of the matter - if one of the parties receives a key it has not seen before 
with NotUnderstood as value it MUST act on it as a protocol error. The text is unambiguous on this. 
However we may want to strengthen the rule in 4 (and add another line of text) as follows: 

The constants "None", "Reject", "Irrelevant", and "NotUnderstood" are reserved and MUST ONLY be used as described here. Violation of this rule is a protocol error (in particular the use of "Reject", "Irrele-vant", and "NotUnderstood" as proposed values). 

In the second part of my comment I was just saying that if you  failed to implement the above check you still can't enter a loop 
because the double negotiation rule. 

To get you in a loop in which every party think it answers - then either both are buggy or somebody is altering the messages maliciously. 
The protocol is not designed to handle either. 

Julo 



	Bill Studenmund <wrstuden@wasabisystems.com> 


08/11/2002 06:11 AM 

        
       To:        Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL 
       cc:        <ips@ece.cmu.edu> 
       Subject:        RE: Problem with use of NotUnderstood in negotiations 

      



On Sat, 10 Aug 2002, Julian Satran wrote:

> Bill,
>
> Perhaps the text is unabiguos but you just ignored the text that forbids
> it.

Julian,

I must say that the tone above is very unbecoming of the author of a
protocol spec. In the past, I've often gotten snippy comments from you,
but written them off to, well, I'm not sure what. But it seems that you
really don't listen to what I say. You read a message, make an
interpretation, do not question that interpretation, and then you run with
it. That's really bad. Besides being quite rude and exceedingly arrogant,
you'll miss things. And the iSCSI spec will suffer for it. Do you think
whatever is going on between us worth more than a bad iSCSI spec? I don't.

Also, if you're going to say that the text is unambiguous, please quote
said text. That makes the discussion much clearer.

> The use of Notunderstood is limited to responses. Using it as you suggest
> is a protocol error.

Julian, I have to ask, what exactly do you think I'm suggesting? From
parsing your sentence, I read that you are telling me that I'm suggesting
using NotUnderstood outside its limited scope, of responses.

As I understand the situation I described, both parties think they are
using NotUnderstood as a response. How is using it as a response outside
its use as a response?

> A repeated use will also violate the "no renegotiation rule".

Please be VERY VERY VERY careful when saying that. Have you thought about
what the statement you just made will imply?

We are (or at least I started) talking about the case where one side
THOUGHT it sent key X, but somehow it was key Y that made it to the other
side. Be it a bug in the code on one side or the other, a PCI bus error in
transfer, a router glitch, or what. Key Y doesn't exist in the spec, and
it's in the negotiation stream. OGMarker or DataPDPInOrder would be
examples.

The point is, BOTH SIDES THINK THEY ARE RESPONDING to a key they don't
understand. Reading the spec, it succinctly states if you get a key you
don't understand, you MUST reply "NotUnderstood".

Getting back to the "repeated use is a protocol violation," how is each
side supposed to realize that they are seeing "OGMarker=NotUnderstood" for
the second time, other than by remembering that it saw OGMarker as a
not-understood key. i.e. by in addition to replying, "NotUnderstood", each
side has to remember that it responded NotUnderstood to key foo. That
seems unwise. I can think of at least one DoS attack if that really is
what implementations do.

Getting back to addressing the topic of the thread, what is wrong with
this text, slightly modified from the I proposed in the first message?

***
Any key not understood by the acceptor may be ignored by the acceptor
without affecting the basic function. However, unless the value for the
key was "NotUnderstood", the answer for a key not understood MUST be
key=NotUnderstood. The value "NotUnderstood" for a key not understood MUST
be considered a protocol violation.
***

As I said before, my main interest is the spec point out that if for a key
you don't understand you get the value "NotUnderstood" (i.e. the other
side is telling you it didn't understand a key that it turns out you also
don't understand), you don't just answer "NotUnderstood". Either
saying nothing, or considering it a protocol violation (since if we both
didn't understand the key it should have never gotten into the
negotiations) are both fine options. I now favor protocol violation as if
neither side understood the key, it should not be there. If it's there, 
something is wrong.

Take care,

Bill







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<DIV><SPAN class=963010016-13082002><FONT face=Arial 
size=2>Julian,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=963010016-13082002><FONT face=Arial 
size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=963010016-13082002><FONT face=Arial size=2>Silent data 
corruption is when errors change the data in a way that is not detectable. It 
should be a rare event in a well designed system but it does occasionally occur. 
For iSCSI, silent data corruption would require:</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=963010016-13082002><FONT face=Arial 
size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=963010016-13082002><FONT face=Arial size=2>Error changes the 
payload such that the link layer CRC check passes (very low probablility - 
roughly </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=963010016-13082002><FONT face=Arial size=2>(BER^3)*2^32) or the 
error occurs when the payload is not protected by link layer CRC&nbsp;(e.g. soft 
memory errors while&nbsp;in switch/router memory).</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=963010016-13082002><FONT face=Arial 
size=2>AND</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=963010016-13082002><FONT face=Arial size=2>TCP checksum escape 
(TCP checksum matches the corrupt data)</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=963010016-13082002><FONT face=Arial 
size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=963010016-13082002><FONT face=Arial size=2>Once in operational 
mode, we have the option of using digest to put a further barrier against silent 
data corruption. We have designed at least some protocol options (digests) for 
dealing with checksum escape.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=963010016-13082002><FONT face=Arial 
size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=963010016-13082002><FONT face=Arial size=2>I think the approach 
you suggest for dealing with this is appropriate. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=963010016-13082002><FONT face=Arial size=2>Shouldn't this 
condition also be added to the list of errors in 5.10 Negotiation 
Failures?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=963010016-13082002><FONT face=Arial 
size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=963010016-13082002><FONT face=Arial size=2>For the text in 4.2, 
it isn't clear what the must applies to. One might use:</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=963010016-13082002><FONT face=Arial 
size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=963010016-13082002><FONT face=Arial size=2>An iSCSI device MAY 
terminate a negotiation which does not end within a reasonable time or number of 
exchanges.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=963010016-13082002><FONT face=Arial 
size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=963010016-13082002><FONT face=Arial size=2>For 8.3 it looks 
like MAY and SHOULD should be upper case.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=963010016-13082002><FONT face=Arial 
size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=963010016-13082002><FONT face=Arial 
size=2>Regards,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=963010016-13082002><FONT face=Arial 
size=2>Pat</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=963010016-13082002><FONT face=Arial 
size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=963010016-13082002><FONT face=Arial 
size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma 
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Julian Satran 
[mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, August 13, 2002 12:03 
AM<BR><B>To:</B> pat_thaler@agilent.com<BR><B>Cc:</B> ips@ece.cmu.edu; 
owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu; wrstuden@wasabisystems.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: Problem 
with use of NotUnderstood in negotiations<BR><BR></FONT></DIV><BR><FONT 
face=sans-serif size=2>Pat,</FONT> <BR><BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>I don't 
know what "silent data corruption is". The protocol is not built for this type 
of errors.</FONT> <BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>Other than that you observe 
correctly that we do not mandate the receiver to check for every 
</FONT><BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>protocol error. However if it does not 
it has to implement some other means of protecting itself.</FONT> <BR><FONT 
face=sans-serif size=2>None of the things that where suggested as protection are 
(or should be) mandatory.</FONT> <BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>As for the 
count/timeout we may want to add to 4.2:</FONT> <BR><BR><FONT face="Courier New" 
size=3>A negotiation must end in within a reasonable time and/or number of 
exchanges.</FONT> <BR><BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>as well as add to 
8.3</FONT> <BR><BR><FONT face="Courier New" size=3>Text negotiations may be also 
subject to either time-limits or lim-its in the number of exchanges. Those 
should be generous enough to avoid affecting interoperability (e.g., allowing 
each key to be nego-tiated on a separate exchange).</FONT> <BR><BR><FONT 
face=sans-serif size=2>Julo</FONT> <BR><BR><BR><BR>
<TABLE width="100%">
  <TBODY>
  <TR vAlign=top>
    <TD>
    <TD><FONT face=sans-serif size=1><B>pat_thaler@agilent.com</B></FONT> 
      <BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu</FONT> 
      <P><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>08/13/2002 03:35 AM</FONT> <BR></P>
    <TD><FONT face=Arial size=1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </FONT><BR><FONT 
      face=sans-serif size=1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; To: &nbsp; &nbsp; 
      &nbsp; &nbsp;Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL, 
      wrstuden@wasabisystems.com</FONT> <BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>&nbsp; 
      &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;ips@ece.cmu.edu</FONT> 
      <BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subject: 
      &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;RE: Problem with use of NotUnderstood in 
      negotiations</FONT> <BR><BR><FONT face=Arial size=1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 
      &nbsp;</FONT></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR><BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>Julian,</FONT> 
<BR><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>&nbsp;</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial 
size=2>Saying that a violation of a rule is a protocol error is not the same as 
saying that the receiver must detect and react to the error. I don't think your 
suggested change to the text changes anything. If we want to say that receiving 
an offer for any key (even if the key is not understood) with a value of 
"Reject", "Irrelevant" or "NotUnderstood" MUST be detected and treated as a 
protocol failure, then a specific statement to that effect should be 
added.</FONT> <BR><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>&nbsp;</FONT> <BR><FONT 
face=Arial size=2>Secondly, there is no requirement that re-negotiation MUST be 
detected. The specific text on renegotiation is (for login): </FONT>
<P><FONT face=Courier size=2>If an attempt to re-negotiate/redeclare parameters 
not specifically allowed is detected by the target the target MUST respond with 
Login reject (initiator error); if detected by the initiator the initiator MUST 
drop the connection.</FONT> 
<P><FONT face=Arial size=2>The text for operational negotiation is similar 
except that the actions taken on detection are different.</FONT> <BR><FONT 
face="Times New Roman" size=3>&nbsp;</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>It says 
"If an attempt ...is detected" which is entirely different than saying such 
attempts "MUST be detected". </FONT><BR><FONT face="Times New Roman" 
size=3>&nbsp;</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>As Bill as pointed out, 
detecting re-negotiation of unknown parameters is onerous and I am very opposed 
to adding such a requirement. It adds unnecessary cost for minimal benefit. For 
the keys that are supported, on just needs a couple of bits per parameter to 
keep track of whether the state is unnegotiated, received offer, sent offer or 
negotiation complete and one may need that state even if one wasn't going to 
detect re-negotiation. Thus, it is pretty trivial to detect re-negotiation of 
supported keys. </FONT><BR><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>&nbsp;</FONT> 
<BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>If someone wants to maliciously tie up a 
negotiation, they can do so by continuously offering new unknown keys and no 
working non-malicious implementation will keep offering the same key. One would 
have to save all</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>received unsupported keys 
and each time an unsupported key was received it would have to be compared to 
the list. This is time and memory consuming and unnecessary. It isn't required 
by draft 15 and no such requirement should be added.</FONT> <BR><FONT 
face="Times New Roman" size=3>&nbsp;</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>A 
simpler solution to concerns about the silent data corruption problem Bill 
identified is either </FONT><BR><FONT face="Times New Roman" 
size=3>&nbsp;</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>1) add in text requiring that 
an offer the value equal to NotUnderstood be detected as a protocol error even 
if the key is not supported/not understood</FONT> <BR><FONT 
face="Times New Roman" size=3>&nbsp;</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>or 
</FONT><BR><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>&nbsp;</FONT> <BR><FONT 
face=Arial size=2>2) rely on timing out the negotiation if it doesn't complete 
after reasonable time or number of exchanges (definition of reasoanble left to 
the implementation probably).</FONT> <BR><FONT face="Times New Roman" 
size=3>&nbsp;</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>Personally, I prefer number 2 
because it will catch anything that hangs up a negotiation with one test. I 
don't know that we can find every corner case. Even if we could, it is better to 
have one test that digs us out for all corner case errors than to put in many 
specific tests.</FONT> <BR><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>&nbsp;</FONT> 
<BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>However, number 1 would also be acceptable to 
me.</FONT> <BR><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>&nbsp;</FONT> <BR><FONT 
face=Arial size=2>Regards,</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>Pat</FONT> 
<BR><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>&nbsp;</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Tahoma 
size=2>-----Original Message-----<B><BR>From:</B> Julian Satran 
[mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]<B><BR>Sent:</B> Saturday, August 10, 2002 9:40 
PM<B><BR>To:</B> Bill Studenmund<B><BR>Cc:</B> 
ips@ece.cmu.edu<B><BR>Subject:</B> RE: Problem with use of NotUnderstood in 
negotiations<BR></FONT><BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2><BR>Bill,</FONT><FONT 
face="Times New Roman" size=3> <BR></FONT><FONT face=sans-serif size=2><BR>My 
only intention in the note was to be brief. &nbsp;If you viewed that as rude I 
am really sorry.</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT><FONT 
face=sans-serif size=2><BR>I have a lot of mail to reply to and a limited 
time.</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> <BR></FONT><FONT 
face=sans-serif size=2><BR>As for the crux of the matter - if one of the parties 
receives a key it has not seen before</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> 
</FONT><FONT face=sans-serif size=2><BR>with NotUnderstood as value it MUST act 
on it as a protocol error. The text is unambiguous on this.</FONT><FONT 
face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT><FONT face=sans-serif size=2><BR>However 
we may want to strengthen the rule in 4 (and add another line of text) as 
follows:</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> <BR></FONT><FONT 
face="Courier New" size=3><BR>The constants "None", "Reject", "Irrelevant", and 
"NotUnderstood" are reserved and MUST ONLY be used as described here. Violation 
of this rule is a protocol error (in particular the use of "Reject", 
"Irrele-vant", and "NotUnderstood" as proposed values).</FONT><FONT 
face="Times New Roman" size=3> <BR></FONT><FONT face=sans-serif size=2><BR>In 
the second part of my comment I was just saying that if you &nbsp;failed to 
implement the above check you still can't enter a loop</FONT><FONT 
face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT><FONT face=sans-serif size=2><BR>because 
the double negotiation rule.</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> 
<BR></FONT><FONT face=sans-serif size=2><BR>To get you in a loop in which every 
party think it answers - then either both are buggy or somebody is altering the 
messages maliciously.</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT><FONT 
face=sans-serif size=2><BR>The protocol is not designed to handle 
either.</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> <BR></FONT><FONT 
face=sans-serif size=2><BR>Julo</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> 
<BR><BR></FONT>
<TABLE width="100%">
  <TBODY>
  <TR vAlign=top>
    <TD width="2%">
    <TD width="44%"><FONT face=sans-serif size=1><B>Bill Studenmund 
      &lt;wrstuden@wasabisystems.com&gt;</B></FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" 
      size=3> </FONT>
      <P><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>08/11/2002 06:11 AM</FONT><FONT 
      face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT></P>
    <TD width="53%"><FONT face=Arial size=1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 
      </FONT><FONT face=sans-serif size=1><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;To: 
      &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL</FONT><FONT 
      face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT><FONT face=sans-serif 
      size=1><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 
      &nbsp;&lt;ips@ece.cmu.edu&gt;</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> 
      </FONT><FONT face=sans-serif size=1><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 
      &nbsp;Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;RE: Problem with use of 
      NotUnderstood in negotiations</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> 
      <BR></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=1><BR>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 
  </FONT></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR><FONT face="Times New Roman" 
size=3><BR></FONT><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><BR>On Sat, 10 Aug 2002, 
Julian Satran wrote:<BR><BR>&gt; Bill,<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt; Perhaps the text is 
unabiguos but you just ignored the text that forbids<BR>&gt; 
it.<BR><BR>Julian,<BR><BR>I must say that the tone above is very unbecoming of 
the author of a<BR>protocol spec. In the past, I've often gotten snippy comments 
from you,<BR>but written them off to, well, I'm not sure what. But it seems that 
you<BR>really don't listen to what I say. You read a message, make 
an<BR>interpretation, do not question that interpretation, and then you run 
with<BR>it. That's really bad. Besides being quite rude and exceedingly 
arrogant,<BR>you'll miss things. And the iSCSI spec will suffer for it. Do you 
think<BR>whatever is going on between us worth more than a bad iSCSI spec? I 
don't.<BR><BR>Also, if you're going to say that the text is unambiguous, please 
quote<BR>said text. That makes the discussion much clearer.<BR><BR>&gt; The use 
of Notunderstood is limited to responses. Using it as you suggest<BR>&gt; is a 
protocol error.<BR><BR>Julian, I have to ask, what exactly do you think I'm 
suggesting? From<BR>parsing your sentence, I read that you are telling me that 
I'm suggesting<BR>using NotUnderstood outside its limited scope, of 
responses.<BR><BR>As I understand the situation I described, both parties think 
they are<BR>using NotUnderstood as a response. How is using it as a response 
outside<BR>its use as a response?<BR><BR>&gt; A repeated use will also violate 
the "no renegotiation rule".<BR><BR>Please be VERY VERY VERY careful when saying 
that. Have you thought about<BR>what the statement you just made will 
imply?<BR><BR>We are (or at least I started) talking about the case where one 
side<BR>THOUGHT it sent key X, but somehow it was key Y that made it to the 
other<BR>side. Be it a bug in the code on one side or the other, a PCI bus error 
in<BR>transfer, a router glitch, or what. Key Y doesn't exist in the spec, 
and<BR>it's in the negotiation stream. OGMarker or DataPDPInOrder would 
be<BR>examples.<BR><BR>The point is, BOTH SIDES THINK THEY ARE RESPONDING to a 
key they don't<BR>understand. Reading the spec, it succinctly states if you get 
a key you<BR>don't understand, you MUST reply "NotUnderstood".<BR><BR>Getting 
back to the "repeated use is a protocol violation," how is each<BR>side supposed 
to realize that they are seeing "OGMarker=NotUnderstood" for<BR>the second time, 
other than by remembering that it saw OGMarker as a<BR>not-understood key. i.e. 
by in addition to replying, "NotUnderstood", each<BR>side has to remember that 
it responded NotUnderstood to key foo. That<BR>seems unwise. I can think of at 
least one DoS attack if that really is<BR>what implementations 
do.<BR><BR>Getting back to addressing the topic of the thread, what is wrong 
with<BR>this text, slightly modified from the I proposed in the first 
message?<BR><BR>***<BR>Any key not understood by the acceptor may be ignored by 
the acceptor<BR>without affecting the basic function. However, unless the value 
for the<BR>key was "NotUnderstood", the answer for a key not understood MUST 
be<BR>key=NotUnderstood. The value "NotUnderstood" for a key not understood 
MUST<BR>be considered a protocol violation.<BR>***<BR><BR>As I said before, my 
main interest is the spec point out that if for a key<BR>you don't understand 
you get the value "NotUnderstood" (i.e. the other<BR>side is telling you it 
didn't understand a key that it turns out you also<BR>don't understand), you 
don't just answer "NotUnderstood". Either<BR>saying nothing, or considering it a 
protocol violation (since if we both<BR>didn't understand the key it should have 
never gotten into the<BR>negotiations) are both fine options. I now favor 
protocol violation as if<BR>neither side understood the key, it should not be 
there. If it's there,</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT><FONT 
face="Courier New" size=2><BR>something is wrong.<BR><BR>Take 
care,<BR><BR>Bill<BR></FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" 
size=3><BR><BR></FONT><BR><BR></P></BODY></HTML>

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From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Tue Aug 13 13:10:27 2002
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From: pat_thaler@agilent.com
To: prashanth_ca@yahoo.com, ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: About F-bit in ISCSI Scsi command PDU
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:58:01 -0600
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Prashanth,

The iSCSI text is clear. 

If one is sending only unsolicited immediate data, no unsolicited data follows the command PDU. There is unsolicited data in the command PDU, but none that follows it. 

Therefore, the F bit is set to 1. This lets the target know that it should send R2Ts for any further data.

Note that this situation can happen even if InitialR2t=False. InitialR2t=False allows the initiator to send unsolicited data PDUs, but the initiator has the choice of whether to do so on each command. The F bit lets the target know what the initiator has decided to do.

Pat

-----Original Message-----
From: Prashanth.C.A. Shetty [mailto:prashanth_ca@yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2002 5:21 AM
To: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: About F-bit in ISCSI Scsi command PDU


Hello All,
    As per the draft definition of F-bit explained in
the iSCSI SCSI command PDU section..."F-bit should be
set to 1 when no unsolicited data follow the command
PDU".
    My interpretation of the above statement is:
    F-bit in the command PDU is to be set to 1 by the
initiator only if solicited data needs to be sent to
the Target and should be zero for Unsolicited data
transfer.
    My question:
    If I need to send only immediate
data:..[dataxferlen <=
MaxRecvPduLen,InitalR2t=True,ImmediateData=True]....What
should be the F-bit set to????.
    Should it be set to ZERO[because IMMEDIATE DATA
ONLY[InitialR2t=True,ImmediateData=True] falls as one
of unsolicited data transfer type] or should it be set
to ONE[because no unsolicited data follows the command
PDU]????
   
Regards,
Prashanth

__________________________________________________
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From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Tue Aug 13 14:08:06 2002
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Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:35:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: Bill Studenmund <wrstuden@wasabisystems.com>
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To: "Prashanth.C.A. Shetty" <prashanth_ca@yahoo.com>
Cc: <ips@ece.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: About F-bit in ISCSI Scsi command PDU
In-Reply-To: <20020813122037.51709.qmail@web20509.mail.yahoo.com>
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On Tue, 13 Aug 2002, Prashanth.C.A. Shetty wrote:

> Hello All,
>     As per the draft definition of F-bit explained in
> the iSCSI SCSI command PDU section..."F-bit should be
> set to 1 when no unsolicited data follow the command
> PDU".

Where did you see that text?

In draft 15, section 9.3.1, I see:

(F) is set to 1 when no unsolicited SCSI Data-Out PDUs follow this PDU.

>     My interpretation of the above statement is:
>     F-bit in the command PDU is to be set to 1 by the
> initiator only if solicited data needs to be sent to
> the Target and should be zero for Unsolicited data
> transfer.
>     My question:
>     If I need to send only immediate
> data:..[dataxferlen <=
> MaxRecvPduLen,InitalR2t=True,ImmediateData=True]....What
> should be the F-bit set to????.

The text quoted above clarifies that F only applies to unsolicited data
PDUs, not immediate data.

>     Should it be set to ZERO[because IMMEDIATE DATA
> ONLY[InitialR2t=True,ImmediateData=True] falls as one
> of unsolicited data transfer type] or should it be set
> to ONE[because no unsolicited data follows the command
> PDU]????

One, as there are no unsolicited Data-Out PDUs.

Note also that just because you negotiated ImmediateData=Yes, and it's
probably better to (saves a data PDU), you don't HAVE to send any. You
just can.

Take care,

Bill



From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Tue Aug 13 17:20:38 2002
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From: Bart Crane <bcrane@iready.com>
To: "'ips@ece.cmu.edu'" <ips@ece.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re-negotiating Vendor-Specific Keys
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 13:42:32 -0700
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Sec. 4.2 says "... re-negotiation ... is forbidden for many keys."  

Sec. 4.3 says "If an attempt to re-negotiate/re-declare parameters not
specifically allowed is detected ...".

If an implementation wishes to determine whether an unrecognized
vendor-specific key which is being re-negotiated is a violation of the
protocol, it would need to access to information regarding that key.  

If an implementation had such information regarding that unrecognized key,
the key would not be unrecognized.

If an implementation does not recognize a vendor-specific key, it can not
decide if re-negotiating that key is a protocol violation.  

Therefore, an implementation need not "remember" all unrecognized
vendor-specific keys in order to detect protocol violations, because it does
not have access to information necessary to determine if a protocol
violation took place.


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<TITLE>Re-negotiating Vendor-Specific Keys</TITLE>
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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Sec. 4.2 says &quot;... re-negotiation ... is =
forbidden for many keys.&quot;&nbsp; </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Sec. 4.3 says &quot;If an attempt to =
re-negotiate/re-declare parameters not specifically allowed is detected =
...&quot;.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>If an implementation wishes to determine whether an =
unrecognized vendor-specific key which is being re-negotiated is a =
violation of the protocol, it would need to access to information =
regarding that key.&nbsp; </FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>If an implementation had such information regarding =
that unrecognized key, the key would not be unrecognized.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>If an implementation does not recognize a =
vendor-specific key, it can not decide if re-negotiating that key is a =
protocol violation.&nbsp; </FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Therefore, an implementation need not =
&quot;remember&quot; all unrecognized vendor-specific keys in order to =
detect protocol violations, because it does not have access to =
information necessary to determine if a protocol violation took =
place.</FONT></P>

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From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Tue Aug 13 19:17:17 2002
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Subject: Re: iSCSI: Abort Task Set CmdSN: < or <=
To: <tonyb@cybernetics.com>
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu, owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.9  November 16, 2001
Message-ID: <OFA33AA167.8A359083-ONC2256C14.004273FE@telaviv.ibm.com>
From: "Julian Satran" <Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 15:11:54 +0300
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Tony,

Immediate commands are only partially ordered. It does not make too much
sense to have Task Management account for immediate commands
that are not completely ordered vs. the TM itself.
Abort Task Set should act only on commands that where issued before it and
immediate commands with the same CmdSN do not meet this criteria.


Julo


                                                                                                                                                    
                      "Tony Battersby"                                                                                                              
                      <tonyb@cybernetic        To:       <ips@ece.cmu.edu>                                                                          
                      s.com>                   cc:                                                                                                  
                      Sent by:                 Subject:  iSCSI: Abort Task Set CmdSN: < or <=                                                       
                      owner-ips@ece.cmu                                                                                                             
                      .edu                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                    
                      08/12/2002 11:39                                                                                                              
                      PM                                                                                                                            
                      Please respond to                                                                                                             
                      tonyb                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                                    



Draft 15, section 9.5.1:
"Task management requests must act on all the commands having a CmdSN lower
than the task management CmdSN."
"... all the tasks covered by the Task Management response (i.e., with
CmdSN
not higher than the task management command CmdSN), ..."

"Lower than" is not the same as "not higher than" for the case of equal
CmdSN's, which could happen if an immediate command preceeded the task
management request.  So if an immediate command is issued followed by a
Task
Management Function Request of ABORT TASK SET with the same CmdSN as the
immediate command, should the immediate command be aborted or not?

Anthony J. Battersby
Cybernetics






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To: pat_thaler@agilent.com
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu, owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu, pat_thaler@agilent.com,
        wrstuden@wasabisystems.com
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Subject: RE: Problem with use of NotUnderstood in negotiations
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From: "Julian Satran" <Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com>
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OK - Julo




pat_thaler@agilent.com
08/13/2002 07:28 PM

 
        To:     Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL, pat_thaler@agilent.com
        cc:     ips@ece.cmu.edu, owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu, wrstuden@wasabisystems.com
        Subject:        RE: Problem with use of NotUnderstood in negotiations

 

Julian,
 
Silent data corruption is when errors change the data in a way that is not 
detectable. It should be a rare event in a well designed system but it 
does occasionally occur. For iSCSI, silent data corruption would require:
 
Error changes the payload such that the link layer CRC check passes (very 
low probablility - roughly 
(BER^3)*2^32) or the error occurs when the payload is not protected by 
link layer CRC (e.g. soft memory errors while in switch/router memory).
AND
TCP checksum escape (TCP checksum matches the corrupt data)
 
Once in operational mode, we have the option of using digest to put a 
further barrier against silent data corruption. We have designed at least 
some protocol options (digests) for dealing with checksum escape.
 
I think the approach you suggest for dealing with this is appropriate. 
Shouldn't this condition also be added to the list of errors in 5.10 
Negotiation Failures?
 
For the text in 4.2, it isn't clear what the must applies to. One might 
use:
 
An iSCSI device MAY terminate a negotiation which does not end within a 
reasonable time or number of exchanges.
 
For 8.3 it looks like MAY and SHOULD should be upper case.
 
Regards,
Pat
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Julian Satran [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2002 12:03 AM
To: pat_thaler@agilent.com
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu; owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu; wrstuden@wasabisystems.com
Subject: RE: Problem with use of NotUnderstood in negotiations


Pat, 

I don't know what "silent data corruption is". The protocol is not built 
for this type of errors. 
Other than that you observe correctly that we do not mandate the receiver 
to check for every 
protocol error. However if it does not it has to implement some other 
means of protecting itself. 
None of the things that where suggested as protection are (or should be) 
mandatory. 
As for the count/timeout we may want to add to 4.2: 

A negotiation must end in within a reasonable time and/or number of 
exchanges. 

as well as add to 8.3 

Text negotiations may be also subject to either time-limits or lim-its in 
the number of exchanges. Those should be generous enough to avoid 
affecting interoperability (e.g., allowing each key to be nego-tiated on a 
separate exchange). 

Julo 




pat_thaler@agilent.com 
Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu 
08/13/2002 03:35 AM 
        
        To:        Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL, 
wrstuden@wasabisystems.com 
        cc:        ips@ece.cmu.edu 
        Subject:        RE: Problem with use of NotUnderstood in 
negotiations 

 


Julian, 
  
Saying that a violation of a rule is a protocol error is not the same as 
saying that the receiver must detect and react to the error. I don't think 
your suggested change to the text changes anything. If we want to say that 
receiving an offer for any key (even if the key is not understood) with a 
value of "Reject", "Irrelevant" or "NotUnderstood" MUST be detected and 
treated as a protocol failure, then a specific statement to that effect 
should be added. 
  
Secondly, there is no requirement that re-negotiation MUST be detected. 
The specific text on renegotiation is (for login): 
If an attempt to re-negotiate/redeclare parameters not specifically 
allowed is detected by the target the target MUST respond with Login 
reject (initiator error); if detected by the initiator the initiator MUST 
drop the connection. 
The text for operational negotiation is similar except that the actions 
taken on detection are different. 
  
It says "If an attempt ...is detected" which is entirely different than 
saying such attempts "MUST be detected". 
  
As Bill as pointed out, detecting re-negotiation of unknown parameters is 
onerous and I am very opposed to adding such a requirement. It adds 
unnecessary cost for minimal benefit. For the keys that are supported, on 
just needs a couple of bits per parameter to keep track of whether the 
state is unnegotiated, received offer, sent offer or negotiation complete 
and one may need that state even if one wasn't going to detect 
re-negotiation. Thus, it is pretty trivial to detect re-negotiation of 
supported keys. 
  
If someone wants to maliciously tie up a negotiation, they can do so by 
continuously offering new unknown keys and no working non-malicious 
implementation will keep offering the same key. One would have to save all 
received unsupported keys and each time an unsupported key was received it 
would have to be compared to the list. This is time and memory consuming 
and unnecessary. It isn't required by draft 15 and no such requirement 
should be added. 
  
A simpler solution to concerns about the silent data corruption problem 
Bill identified is either 
  
1) add in text requiring that an offer the value equal to NotUnderstood be 
detected as a protocol error even if the key is not supported/not 
understood 
  
or 
  
2) rely on timing out the negotiation if it doesn't complete after 
reasonable time or number of exchanges (definition of reasoanble left to 
the implementation probably). 
  
Personally, I prefer number 2 because it will catch anything that hangs up 
a negotiation with one test. I don't know that we can find every corner 
case. Even if we could, it is better to have one test that digs us out for 
all corner case errors than to put in many specific tests. 
  
However, number 1 would also be acceptable to me. 
  
Regards, 
Pat 
  
-----Original Message-----
From: Julian Satran [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]
Sent: Saturday, August 10, 2002 9:40 PM
To: Bill Studenmund
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: Problem with use of NotUnderstood in negotiations


Bill, 

My only intention in the note was to be brief.  If you viewed that as rude 
I am really sorry. 
I have a lot of mail to reply to and a limited time. 

As for the crux of the matter - if one of the parties receives a key it 
has not seen before 
with NotUnderstood as value it MUST act on it as a protocol error. The 
text is unambiguous on this. 
However we may want to strengthen the rule in 4 (and add another line of 
text) as follows: 

The constants "None", "Reject", "Irrelevant", and "NotUnderstood" are 
reserved and MUST ONLY be used as described here. Violation of this rule 
is a protocol error (in particular the use of "Reject", "Irrele-vant", and 
"NotUnderstood" as proposed values). 

In the second part of my comment I was just saying that if you  failed to 
implement the above check you still can't enter a loop 
because the double negotiation rule. 

To get you in a loop in which every party think it answers - then either 
both are buggy or somebody is altering the messages maliciously. 
The protocol is not designed to handle either. 

Julo 


Bill Studenmund <wrstuden@wasabisystems.com> 
08/11/2002 06:11 AM 
        
       To:        Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL 
       cc:        <ips@ece.cmu.edu> 
       Subject:        RE: Problem with use of NotUnderstood in 
negotiations 

 



On Sat, 10 Aug 2002, Julian Satran wrote:

> Bill,
>
> Perhaps the text is unabiguos but you just ignored the text that forbids
> it.

Julian,

I must say that the tone above is very unbecoming of the author of a
protocol spec. In the past, I've often gotten snippy comments from you,
but written them off to, well, I'm not sure what. But it seems that you
really don't listen to what I say. You read a message, make an
interpretation, do not question that interpretation, and then you run with
it. That's really bad. Besides being quite rude and exceedingly arrogant,
you'll miss things. And the iSCSI spec will suffer for it. Do you think
whatever is going on between us worth more than a bad iSCSI spec? I don't.

Also, if you're going to say that the text is unambiguous, please quote
said text. That makes the discussion much clearer.

> The use of Notunderstood is limited to responses. Using it as you 
suggest
> is a protocol error.

Julian, I have to ask, what exactly do you think I'm suggesting? From
parsing your sentence, I read that you are telling me that I'm suggesting
using NotUnderstood outside its limited scope, of responses.

As I understand the situation I described, both parties think they are
using NotUnderstood as a response. How is using it as a response outside
its use as a response?

> A repeated use will also violate the "no renegotiation rule".

Please be VERY VERY VERY careful when saying that. Have you thought about
what the statement you just made will imply?

We are (or at least I started) talking about the case where one side
THOUGHT it sent key X, but somehow it was key Y that made it to the other
side. Be it a bug in the code on one side or the other, a PCI bus error in
transfer, a router glitch, or what. Key Y doesn't exist in the spec, and
it's in the negotiation stream. OGMarker or DataPDPInOrder would be
examples.

The point is, BOTH SIDES THINK THEY ARE RESPONDING to a key they don't
understand. Reading the spec, it succinctly states if you get a key you
don't understand, you MUST reply "NotUnderstood".

Getting back to the "repeated use is a protocol violation," how is each
side supposed to realize that they are seeing "OGMarker=NotUnderstood" for
the second time, other than by remembering that it saw OGMarker as a
not-understood key. i.e. by in addition to replying, "NotUnderstood", each
side has to remember that it responded NotUnderstood to key foo. That
seems unwise. I can think of at least one DoS attack if that really is
what implementations do.

Getting back to addressing the topic of the thread, what is wrong with
this text, slightly modified from the I proposed in the first message?

***
Any key not understood by the acceptor may be ignored by the acceptor
without affecting the basic function. However, unless the value for the
key was "NotUnderstood", the answer for a key not understood MUST be
key=NotUnderstood. The value "NotUnderstood" for a key not understood MUST
be considered a protocol violation.
***

As I said before, my main interest is the spec point out that if for a key
you don't understand you get the value "NotUnderstood" (i.e. the other
side is telling you it didn't understand a key that it turns out you also
don't understand), you don't just answer "NotUnderstood". Either
saying nothing, or considering it a protocol violation (since if we both
didn't understand the key it should have never gotten into the
negotiations) are both fine options. I now favor protocol violation as if
neither side understood the key, it should not be there. If it's there, 
something is wrong.

Take care,

Bill






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<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">OK - Julo</font>
<br>
<br>
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<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>pat_thaler@agilent.com</b></font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">08/13/2002 07:28 PM</font>
<br>
<td><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL, pat_thaler@agilent.com</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;ips@ece.cmu.edu, owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu, wrstuden@wasabisystems.com</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;RE: Problem with use of NotUnderstood in negotiations</font>
<br>
<br><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font></table>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="Arial">Julian,</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Arial">Silent data corruption is when errors change the data in a way that is not detectable. It should be a rare event in a well designed system but it does occasionally occur. For iSCSI, silent data corruption would require:</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Arial">Error changes the payload such that the link layer CRC check passes (very low probablility - roughly </font>
<br><font size=2 face="Arial">(BER^3)*2^32) or the error occurs when the payload is not protected by link layer CRC (e.g. soft memory errors while in switch/router memory).</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Arial">AND</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Arial">TCP checksum escape (TCP checksum matches the corrupt data)</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Arial">Once in operational mode, we have the option of using digest to put a further barrier against silent data corruption. We have designed at least some protocol options (digests) for dealing with checksum escape.</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Arial">I think the approach you suggest for dealing with this is appropriate. </font>
<br><font size=2 face="Arial">Shouldn't this condition also be added to the list of errors in 5.10 Negotiation Failures?</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Arial">For the text in 4.2, it isn't clear what the must applies to. One might use:</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Arial">An iSCSI device MAY terminate a negotiation which does not end within a reasonable time or number of exchanges.</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Arial">For 8.3 it looks like MAY and SHOULD should be upper case.</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Arial">Regards,</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Arial">Pat</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Tahoma">-----Original Message-----<b><br>
From:</b> Julian Satran [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]<b><br>
Sent:</b> Tuesday, August 13, 2002 12:03 AM<b><br>
To:</b> pat_thaler@agilent.com<b><br>
Cc:</b> ips@ece.cmu.edu; owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu; wrstuden@wasabisystems.com<b><br>
Subject:</b> RE: Problem with use of NotUnderstood in negotiations<br>
</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
Pat,</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
</font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
I don't know what &quot;silent data corruption is&quot;. The protocol is not built for this type of errors.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
Other than that you observe correctly that we do not mandate the receiver to check for every <br>
protocol error. However if it does not it has to implement some other means of protecting itself.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
None of the things that where suggested as protection are (or should be) mandatory.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
As for the count/timeout we may want to add to 4.2:</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
</font><font size=3 face="Courier New"><br>
A negotiation must end in within a reasonable time and/or number of exchanges.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
</font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
as well as add to 8.3</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
</font><font size=3 face="Courier New"><br>
Text negotiations may be also subject to either time-limits or lim-its in the number of exchanges. Those should be generous enough to avoid affecting interoperability (e.g., allowing each key to be nego-tiated on a separate exchange).</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
</font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
Julo</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
<br>
<br>
</font>
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<td width=29%><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>pat_thaler@agilent.com</b></font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><br>
Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">08/13/2002 03:35 AM</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<td width=67%><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </font><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL, wrstuden@wasabisystems.com</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;ips@ece.cmu.edu</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;RE: Problem with use of NotUnderstood in negotiations</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
</font><font size=1 face="Arial"><br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </font></table>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><br>
</font><font size=2 face="Arial"><br>
Julian,</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
 &nbsp;</font><font size=2 face="Arial"><br>
Saying that a violation of a rule is a protocol error is not the same as saying that the receiver must detect and react to the error. I don't think your suggested change to the text changes anything. If we want to say that receiving an offer for any key (even if the key is not understood) with a value of &quot;Reject&quot;, &quot;Irrelevant&quot; or &quot;NotUnderstood&quot; MUST be detected and treated as a protocol failure, then a specific statement to that effect should be added.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
 &nbsp;</font><font size=2 face="Arial"><br>
Secondly, there is no requirement that re-negotiation MUST be detected. The specific text on renegotiation is (for login): </font>
<p><font size=2 face="Courier">If an attempt to re-negotiate/redeclare parameters not specifically allowed is detected by the target the target MUST respond with Login reject (initiator error); if detected by the initiator the initiator MUST drop the connection.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<p><font size=2 face="Arial">The text for operational negotiation is similar except that the actions taken on detection are different.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
 &nbsp;</font><font size=2 face="Arial"><br>
It says &quot;If an attempt ...is detected&quot; which is entirely different than saying such attempts &quot;MUST be detected&quot;. </font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><br>
 &nbsp;</font><font size=2 face="Arial"><br>
As Bill as pointed out, detecting re-negotiation of unknown parameters is onerous and I am very opposed to adding such a requirement. It adds unnecessary cost for minimal benefit. For the keys that are supported, on just needs a couple of bits per parameter to keep track of whether the state is unnegotiated, received offer, sent offer or negotiation complete and one may need that state even if one wasn't going to detect re-negotiation. Thus, it is pretty trivial to detect re-negotiation of supported keys. </font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><br>
 &nbsp;</font><font size=2 face="Arial"><br>
If someone wants to maliciously tie up a negotiation, they can do so by continuously offering new unknown keys and no working non-malicious implementation will keep offering the same key. One would have to save all</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Arial"><br>
received unsupported keys and each time an unsupported key was received it would have to be compared to the list. This is time and memory consuming and unnecessary. It isn't required by draft 15 and no such requirement should be added.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
 &nbsp;</font><font size=2 face="Arial"><br>
A simpler solution to concerns about the silent data corruption problem Bill identified is either </font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><br>
 &nbsp;</font><font size=2 face="Arial"><br>
1) add in text requiring that an offer the value equal to NotUnderstood be detected as a protocol error even if the key is not supported/not understood</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
 &nbsp;</font><font size=2 face="Arial"><br>
or </font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><br>
 &nbsp;</font><font size=2 face="Arial"><br>
2) rely on timing out the negotiation if it doesn't complete after reasonable time or number of exchanges (definition of reasoanble left to the implementation probably).</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
 &nbsp;</font><font size=2 face="Arial"><br>
Personally, I prefer number 2 because it will catch anything that hangs up a negotiation with one test. I don't know that we can find every corner case. Even if we could, it is better to have one test that digs us out for all corner case errors than to put in many specific tests.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
 &nbsp;</font><font size=2 face="Arial"><br>
However, number 1 would also be acceptable to me.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
 &nbsp;</font><font size=2 face="Arial"><br>
Regards,</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Arial"><br>
Pat</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
 &nbsp;</font><font size=2 face="Tahoma"><br>
-----Original Message-----<b><br>
From:</b> Julian Satran [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]<b><br>
Sent:</b> Saturday, August 10, 2002 9:40 PM<b><br>
To:</b> Bill Studenmund<b><br>
Cc:</b> ips@ece.cmu.edu<b><br>
Subject:</b> RE: Problem with use of NotUnderstood in negotiations</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><br>
</font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
<br>
Bill,</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
<br>
My only intention in the note was to be brief. &nbsp;If you viewed that as rude I am really sorry.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
I have a lot of mail to reply to and a limited time.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
<br>
As for the crux of the matter - if one of the parties receives a key it has not seen before</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
with NotUnderstood as value it MUST act on it as a protocol error. The text is unambiguous on this.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
However we may want to strengthen the rule in 4 (and add another line of text) as follows:</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=3 face="Courier New"><br>
<br>
The constants &quot;None&quot;, &quot;Reject&quot;, &quot;Irrelevant&quot;, and &quot;NotUnderstood&quot; are reserved and MUST ONLY be used as described here. Violation of this rule is a protocol error (in particular the use of &quot;Reject&quot;, &quot;Irrele-vant&quot;, and &quot;NotUnderstood&quot; as proposed values).</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
<br>
In the second part of my comment I was just saying that if you &nbsp;failed to implement the above check you still can't enter a loop</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
because the double negotiation rule.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
<br>
To get you in a loop in which every party think it answers - then either both are buggy or somebody is altering the messages maliciously.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
The protocol is not designed to handle either.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
<br>
Julo</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
</font>
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<td width=44%><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>Bill Studenmund &lt;wrstuden@wasabisystems.com&gt;</b></font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">08/11/2002 06:11 AM</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<td width=53%><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </font><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&lt;ips@ece.cmu.edu&gt;</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;RE: Problem with use of NotUnderstood in negotiations</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=1 face="Arial"><br>
<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font></table>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><br>
</font><font size=2 face="Courier New"><br>
<br>
On Sat, 10 Aug 2002, Julian Satran wrote:<br>
<br>
&gt; Bill,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Perhaps the text is unabiguos but you just ignored the text that forbids<br>
&gt; it.<br>
<br>
Julian,<br>
<br>
I must say that the tone above is very unbecoming of the author of a<br>
protocol spec. In the past, I've often gotten snippy comments from you,<br>
but written them off to, well, I'm not sure what. But it seems that you<br>
really don't listen to what I say. You read a message, make an<br>
interpretation, do not question that interpretation, and then you run with<br>
it. That's really bad. Besides being quite rude and exceedingly arrogant,<br>
you'll miss things. And the iSCSI spec will suffer for it. Do you think<br>
whatever is going on between us worth more than a bad iSCSI spec? I don't.<br>
<br>
Also, if you're going to say that the text is unambiguous, please quote<br>
said text. That makes the discussion much clearer.<br>
<br>
&gt; The use of Notunderstood is limited to responses. Using it as you suggest<br>
&gt; is a protocol error.<br>
<br>
Julian, I have to ask, what exactly do you think I'm suggesting? From<br>
parsing your sentence, I read that you are telling me that I'm suggesting<br>
using NotUnderstood outside its limited scope, of responses.<br>
<br>
As I understand the situation I described, both parties think they are<br>
using NotUnderstood as a response. How is using it as a response outside<br>
its use as a response?<br>
<br>
&gt; A repeated use will also violate the &quot;no renegotiation rule&quot;.<br>
<br>
Please be VERY VERY VERY careful when saying that. Have you thought about<br>
what the statement you just made will imply?<br>
<br>
We are (or at least I started) talking about the case where one side<br>
THOUGHT it sent key X, but somehow it was key Y that made it to the other<br>
side. Be it a bug in the code on one side or the other, a PCI bus error in<br>
transfer, a router glitch, or what. Key Y doesn't exist in the spec, and<br>
it's in the negotiation stream. OGMarker or DataPDPInOrder would be<br>
examples.<br>
<br>
The point is, BOTH SIDES THINK THEY ARE RESPONDING to a key they don't<br>
understand. Reading the spec, it succinctly states if you get a key you<br>
don't understand, you MUST reply &quot;NotUnderstood&quot;.<br>
<br>
Getting back to the &quot;repeated use is a protocol violation,&quot; how is each<br>
side supposed to realize that they are seeing &quot;OGMarker=NotUnderstood&quot; for<br>
the second time, other than by remembering that it saw OGMarker as a<br>
not-understood key. i.e. by in addition to replying, &quot;NotUnderstood&quot;, each<br>
side has to remember that it responded NotUnderstood to key foo. That<br>
seems unwise. I can think of at least one DoS attack if that really is<br>
what implementations do.<br>
<br>
Getting back to addressing the topic of the thread, what is wrong with<br>
this text, slightly modified from the I proposed in the first message?<br>
<br>
***<br>
Any key not understood by the acceptor may be ignored by the acceptor<br>
without affecting the basic function. However, unless the value for the<br>
key was &quot;NotUnderstood&quot;, the answer for a key not understood MUST be<br>
key=NotUnderstood. The value &quot;NotUnderstood&quot; for a key not understood MUST<br>
be considered a protocol violation.<br>
***<br>
<br>
As I said before, my main interest is the spec point out that if for a key<br>
you don't understand you get the value &quot;NotUnderstood&quot; (i.e. the other<br>
side is telling you it didn't understand a key that it turns out you also<br>
don't understand), you don't just answer &quot;NotUnderstood&quot;. Either<br>
saying nothing, or considering it a protocol violation (since if we both<br>
didn't understand the key it should have never gotten into the<br>
negotiations) are both fine options. I now favor protocol violation as if<br>
neither side understood the key, it should not be there. If it's there,</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Courier New"><br>
something is wrong.<br>
<br>
Take care,<br>
<br>
Bill</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</font>
<br>
<br>
--=_alternative 007BD8FDC2256C14_=--


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Tue Aug 13 20:12:10 2002
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Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 17:11:20 -0500
From: Steve Senum <ssenum@cisco.com>
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Julian and Ofer,

At the last plugfest, Ayman said there seemed to be
some confusion about the CHAP_N key.  It would be helpful
to add a comment in section 10.1.4 to the effect of:

  The CHAP_N key specifies the identity of the iSCSI
  Initiator or Target for CHAP authentication purposes, which
  may be different from the iSCSI name and should be configurable.

I think a similiar comment applies to SRP_U key.

Regards,
Steve Senum


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From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Tue Aug 13 21:09:16 2002
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From: Bart Berger <bberger@NishanSystems.com>
To: "'ips@ece.cmu.edu'" <ips@ece.cmu.edu>
Subject: RE: ips,introduction on ADSL -- may contain virus
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 17:19:30 -0700
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Caution: Norton Antivirus at our site blocked the email below, saying the
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virus. 

-----Original Message-----
From: jpink [mailto:jpink@microsoft.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2002 4:50 PM
To: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: Fw:ips,introduction on ADSL




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From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Wed Aug 14 16:44:06 2002
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Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 13:05:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: Bill Studenmund <wrstuden@wasabisystems.com>
X-X-Sender:  <wrstuden@candlekeep.home-net.internetconnect.net>
To: <ips@ece.cmu.edu>
Subject: iSCSI MIB-05 concerns
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Precedence: bulk

Last I looked, this was the latest draft. I have a few concerns with it:

1) The text for iscsiCtxMaxRecvDataSegLength (page 55) says:

Note that the size is reported in bytes even though the negotiation is in
512k blocks.

I think that sentance should be deleted. :-)

2) I have a concern with iscsiSsnAuthIdentity (or with its descriptive
text). The description reads:

"This object contains a row in the IPS-AUTH MIB which identifies the
authentication method being used on this session, as communicated during
the login phase."

My concern is that the text implies that only one security method can be
used for a session, while the iSCSI spec does not imply that. From my read
of the spec, different connections within a session can use different
authentication methods. All that is required is that both sides agree
during security negotiations on the method, and then authenticate each
other.

For long-lived sessions (say sessions in a data center) I can see a
definite advantage to permitting different auth methods. Say we've had our
systems up for a month, and we administratively decide we want to change
auth methods (say a pointy-hair boss decides SPKM or SRP or CHAP or
Kerberos is the way to go, even though it was not what we were doing when
we fired the systems up a month ago). If we force only one auth method per
session, then we have to tear down sessions if we ever want to add
connections, which seems like a waste.

Also, the name doesn't really match the text. Identity seems a broader
concept that auth method.

Fixes:

a) move this to iscsiCxnAuthMethod

b) make it the last authentication method used on a connection

c) change it to point to the identity in IPS-AUTH used for authorization,
rather than the method used to authenticate. I can definitely see the
identity needing to stay the same for all connections in a session.

Take care,

Bill



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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the IP Storage Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: Finding FCIP Entities Using SLP
	Author(s)	: D. Peterson
	Filename	: draft-ietf-ips-fcip-slp-03.txt
	Pages		: 12
	Date		: 14-Aug-02
	
The FCIP protocol [FCIP] provides a method for the tunneling of Fibre
Channel  frames  over an IP network. This document defines the use of
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From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Thu Aug 15 22:34:06 2002
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To: Steve Senum <ssenum@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: iSCSI: Minor Comment on CHAP_N
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From: "Julian Satran" <Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com>
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I've added a comment about this to 7.2 _ It will show up tomorrow. Julo

For some of the authentication methods a key specifies the identity of the 
iSCSI initiator or target for authentication purposes. The value 
associated with that key MAY be different from the iSCSI name and SHOULD 
be configurable (e.g, CHAP_N - see Section 10.1.4 Challenge Handshake 
Authentication Protocol (CHAP) and SRP_U - see Section 10.1.3 Secure 
Remote Password (SRP)).




Steve Senum <ssenum@cisco.com>
Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
08/14/2002 01:11 AM

 
        To:     ietf-ips <ips@ece.cmu.edu>
        cc: 
        Subject:        iSCSI: Minor Comment on CHAP_N

 

Julian and Ofer,

At the last plugfest, Ayman said there seemed to be
some confusion about the CHAP_N key.  It would be helpful
to add a comment in section 10.1.4 to the effect of:

  The CHAP_N key specifies the identity of the iSCSI
  Initiator or Target for CHAP authentication purposes, which
  may be different from the iSCSI name and should be configurable.

I think a similiar comment applies to SRP_U key.

Regards,
Steve Senum



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<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">I've added a comment about this to 7.2 _ It will show up tomorrow. Julo</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="Courier New">For some of the authentication methods a key specifies the identity of the iSCSI initiator or target for authentication purposes. The value associated with that key MAY be different from the iSCSI name and SHOULD be configurable (e.g, CHAP_N - see Section 10.1.4 Challenge Handshake Authentication Protocol (CHAP) and SRP_U - see Section 10.1.3 Secure Remote Password (SRP)).</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>Steve Senum &lt;ssenum@cisco.com&gt;</b></font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu</font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">08/14/2002 01:11 AM</font>
<br>
<td><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;ietf-ips &lt;ips@ece.cmu.edu&gt;</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;iSCSI: Minor Comment on CHAP_N</font>
<br>
<br><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font></table>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">Julian and Ofer,<br>
<br>
At the last plugfest, Ayman said there seemed to be<br>
some confusion about the CHAP_N key. &nbsp;It would be helpful<br>
to add a comment in section 10.1.4 to the effect of:<br>
<br>
 &nbsp;The CHAP_N key specifies the identity of the iSCSI<br>
 &nbsp;Initiator or Target for CHAP authentication purposes, which<br>
 &nbsp;may be different from the iSCSI name and should be configurable.<br>
<br>
I think a similiar comment applies to SRP_U key.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Steve Senum<br>
</font>
<br>
<br>
--=_alternative 0008FDA2C2256C17_=--


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Fri Aug 16 07:39:36 2002
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Subject: iSCSI - ExpDataSN
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From: "Julian Satran" <Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com>
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Mallikarjun has expressed a lingering concern that we should allow the 
value 0
for the field ExpDataSN in a TASK REASSIGN TM function to say "give me all 
unacked data" (as we do for SNACK).
Please observe that we already allow the target to do this on its own and 
this change does not affect
any recovery mechanism. To do it I am suggesting the following rephrasing 
of 9.5.6

For recovery purposes the iSCSI target and initiator maintain a data 
acknowledgement reference number - the first input DataSN number 
unacknowledged by the initiator. When issuing a new command this num-ber 
is set to 0. If the function is TASK REASSIGN, which establishes a new 
connection allegiance for a previously issued Read or Bidirec-tional 
command ExpDataSN will contain either a new data acknowldge-ment reference 
number or the value 0 indicating that the data acknowledgement reference 
number is unchanged. The initiator MUST discard any data PDUs from the 
previous execution that it did not acknowledge and the target MUST 
transmit all Data-in PDUs (if any) starting with the data acknowledgement 
reference number.  The number of retransmitted PDUs, may or may not be the 
same as the original transmission depending on if there was a change in 
MaxRecvDataSeg-mentLength in the reassignment. The target MAY also  send 
no more Data-In PDUs if it sent all its data in PDUs with DataSN less than 
ExpDataSN.

The value of ExpDataSN  MUST be either 0 or higher than the DataSN of the 
last acknowledged Data-In PDU but not larger than DataSN+1 of the last 
Data-IN PDU sent by the target. Any other value MUST be ignored by the 
target. 

For other functions this field is reserved.

Please let me know what you think.

Julo
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<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Mallikarjun has expressed a lingering concern that we should allow the value 0</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">for the field ExpDataSN in a TASK REASSIGN TM function to say &quot;give me all unacked data&quot; (as we do for SNACK).</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Please observe that we already allow the target to do this on its own and this change does not affect</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">any recovery mechanism. To do it I am suggesting the following rephrasing of 9.5.6</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="Courier New">For recovery purposes the iSCSI target and initiator maintain a data acknowledgement reference number - the first input DataSN number unacknowledged by the initiator. When issuing a new command this num-ber is set to 0. If the function is TASK REASSIGN, which establishes a new connection allegiance for a previously issued Read or Bidirec-tional command ExpDataSN will contain either a new data acknowldge-ment reference number or the value 0 indicating that the data acknowledgement reference number is unchanged. The initiator MUST discard any data PDUs from the previous execution that it did not acknowledge and the target MUST transmit all Data-in PDUs (if any) starting with the data acknowledgement reference number. &nbsp;The number of retransmitted PDUs, may or may not be the same as the original transmission depending on if there was a change in MaxRecvDataSeg-mentLength in the reassignment. The target MAY also &nbsp;send no more Data-In !
PDUs if it sent all its data in PDUs with DataSN less than ExpDataSN.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="Courier New">The value of ExpDataSN &nbsp;MUST be either 0 or higher than the DataSN of the last acknowledged Data-In PDU but not larger than DataSN+1 of the last Data-IN PDU sent by the target. Any other value MUST be ignored by the target. </font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="Courier New">For other functions this field is reserved.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Please let me know what you think.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Julo</font>
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From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Fri Aug 16 08:34:23 2002
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From: Eddy Quicksall <eddy_quicksall@ivivity.com>
To: "ips@ece. cmu. edu (E-mail)" <ips@ece.cmu.edu>
Subject: iSCSI: ping data size
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 08:00:11 -0400
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Is there a good reason why the originator would need ALL of the ping data
back?
 
If not, can we allow the size of ping response data to be at the responders
discretion?
 
Eddy
mailto:Eddy_Quicksall@iVivity.com
 

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<DIV><SPAN class=075345411-16082002><FONT face=Arial size=2>Is there a good 
reason why the originator would need ALL of the ping data 
back?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>
<DIV><SPAN class=075345411-16082002><FONT face=Arial size=2>If not, can 
we&nbsp;allow the size of ping response data to be at the responders 
discretion?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=075345411-16082002><FONT face=Arial 
size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>Eddy</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>mailto:Eddy_Quicksall@iVivity.com</FONT></DIV>
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From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Fri Aug 16 08:34:52 2002
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To: Eddy Quicksall <eddy_quicksall@ivivity.com>
Cc: "ips@ece. cmu. edu (E-mail)" <ips@ece.cmu.edu>, owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
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Subject: Re: iSCSI: ping data size
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Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 15:26:54 +0300
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The originator may be trying to measure something. Allowing the responder 
to twart the answer would be counterproductive.

Julo




Eddy Quicksall <eddy_quicksall@ivivity.com>
Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
08/16/2002 03:00 PM

 
        To:     "ips@ece. cmu. edu (E-mail)" <ips@ece.cmu.edu>
        cc: 
        Subject:        iSCSI: ping data size

 

Is there a good reason why the originator would need ALL of the ping data 
back?
 
If not, can we allow the size of ping response data to be at the 
responders discretion?
 
Eddy
mailto:Eddy_Quicksall@iVivity.com
 


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<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">The originator may be trying to measure something. Allowing the responder to twart the answer would be counterproductive.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Julo</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>Eddy Quicksall &lt;eddy_quicksall@ivivity.com&gt;</b></font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu</font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">08/16/2002 03:00 PM</font>
<br>
<td><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&quot;ips@ece. cmu. edu (E-mail)&quot; &lt;ips@ece.cmu.edu&gt;</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;iSCSI: ping data size</font>
<br>
<br><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font></table>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="Arial">Is there a good reason why the originator would need ALL of the ping data back?</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Arial">If not, can we allow the size of ping response data to be at the responders discretion?</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Arial">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Arial">Eddy</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Arial">mailto:Eddy_Quicksall@iVivity.com</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">&nbsp;</font>
<br>
<br>
--=_alternative 0043CB07C2256C17_=--


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To: "'Julian Satran'" <Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com>, ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: iSCSI - ExpDataSN
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If I understand correctly, this change will align the TASK REASSIGN task
management function behavior with the SNACK request behavior wrt
understanding that the value 0 means "send me all unacked data" - that makes
sense to me.  
 
In the 3rd sentence, it's not clear to me what you mean by "a new data
acknowledgement ref. number" - shouldn't this be the requestor's ExpDataSN
or 0?  The use of the word "new" leave the impression that the requestor is
somehow resetting this number and offering a new one? 
 
Editorial comments: the 3rd sentence in the first paragraph seems to be
missing a comma after "Bidirectional command"?  And the word
"acknowledgement" is mis-spelled in the hyphenated spot.  I've corrected the
text below:
 

For recovery purposes the iSCSI target and initiator maintain a data
acknowledgement reference number - the first input DataSN number
unacknowledged by the initiator. When issuing a new command this num-ber is
set to 0. If the function is TASK REASSIGN, which establishes a new
connection allegiance for a previously issued Read or Bidirec-tional
command, ExpDataSN will contain either a new data acknowledge-ment reference
number or the value 0 indicating that the data acknowledgement reference
number is unchanged. The initiator MUST discard any data PDUs from the
previous execution that it did not acknowledge and the target MUST transmit
all Data-in PDUs (if any) starting with the data acknowledgement reference
number.  The number of retransmitted PDUs, may or may not be the same as the
original transmission depending on if there was a change in
MaxRecvDataSeg-mentLength in the reassignment. The target MAY also  send no
more Data-In ! PDUs if it sent all its data in PDUs with DataSN less than
ExpDataSN. 

The value of ExpDataSN  MUST be either 0 or higher than the DataSN of the
last acknowledged Data-In PDU but not larger than DataSN+1 of the last
Data-IN PDU sent by the target. Any other value MUST be ignored by the
target. 

For other functions this field is reserved. 



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<DIV><SPAN class=385583618-16082002><FONT color=#0000ff>If I understand 
correctly, this change will align the TASK REASSIGN task management 
function&nbsp;behavior with the SNACK request behavior wrt understanding that 
the value 0 means "send me all unacked data" - that makes sense to me.&nbsp; 
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=385583618-16082002><FONT 
color=#0000ff></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=385583618-16082002><FONT color=#0000ff>In the 3rd sentence, 
it's not clear to me what you mean by "a new data acknowledgement ref. number" 
-&nbsp;shouldn't this be the requestor's ExpDataSN or 0?&nbsp;&nbsp;The use of 
the word "new" leave the&nbsp;impression that the requestor is somehow resetting 
this number and offering a new one?&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=385583618-16082002><FONT 
color=#0000ff></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=385583618-16082002><FONT color=#0000ff>Editorial comments: the 
3rd sentence in the first paragraph&nbsp;seems to be missing a comma after 
"Bidirectional command"?&nbsp; And the word "acknowledgement" is mis-spelled in 
the hyphenated spot.&nbsp; I've corrected the text below:</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Courier New" color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE 
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid"><FONT 
  face="Courier New">For recovery purposes the iSCSI target and initiator 
  maintain a data acknowledgement reference number - the first input DataSN 
  number unacknowledged by the initiator. When issuing a new command this 
  num-ber is set to 0. If the function is TASK REASSIGN, which establishes a new 
  connection allegiance for a previously issued Read or Bidirec-tional 
  command<SPAN class=385583618-16082002><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT 
  color=#000000>,</FONT> </FONT></SPAN>ExpDataSN will contain either a new data 
  acknowl<SPAN class=385583618-16082002>e</SPAN>dge-ment reference number or the 
  value 0 indicating that the data acknowledgement reference number is 
  unchanged. The initiator MUST discard any data PDUs from the previous 
  execution that it did not acknowledge and the target MUST transmit all Data-in 
  PDUs (if any) starting with the data acknowledgement reference number. 
  &nbsp;The number of retransmitted PDUs, may or may not be the same as the 
  original transmission depending on if there was a change in 
  MaxRecvDataSeg-mentLength in the reassignment. The target MAY also &nbsp;send 
  no more Data-In ! PDUs if it sent all its data in PDUs with DataSN less than 
  ExpDataSN.</FONT> <BR><BR><FONT face="Courier New">The value of ExpDataSN 
  &nbsp;MUST be either 0 or higher than the DataSN of the last acknowledged 
  Data-In PDU but not larger than DataSN+1 of the last Data-IN PDU sent by the 
  target. Any other value MUST be ignored by the target. </FONT><BR><BR><FONT 
  face="Courier New">For other functions this field is reserved.</FONT> 
<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From: pat_thaler@agilent.com
To: Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com, ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: iSCSI - ExpDataSN
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Julian,
 
Looks good.
 
For completeness, "The target MAY also  send no more Data-In ! PDUs if it sent all its data in PDUs with DataSN 
   ^ not sure what that character was suppose to be
less than ExpDataSN." should be
"The target MAY also send no more Data-In PDUs if all data has been acknowledged."
because ExpDataSN might be 0 and all the data was already acknowledged. If all the PDUs had DataSN less than ExpDataSN, then all the data was also acknowledged so this change covers both cases.
 
Pat

 
-----Original Message-----
From: Julian Satran [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]
Sent: Friday, August 16, 2002 4:02 AM
To: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: iSCSI - ExpDataSN



Mallikarjun has expressed a lingering concern that we should allow the value 0 
for the field ExpDataSN in a TASK REASSIGN TM function to say "give me all unacked data" (as we do for SNACK). 
Please observe that we already allow the target to do this on its own and this change does not affect 
any recovery mechanism. To do it I am suggesting the following rephrasing of 9.5.6 

For recovery purposes the iSCSI target and initiator maintain a data acknowledgement reference number - the first input DataSN number unacknowledged by the initiator. When issuing a new command this num-ber is set to 0. If the function is TASK REASSIGN, which establishes a new connection allegiance for a previously issued Read or Bidirec-tional command ExpDataSN will contain either a new data acknowldge-ment reference number or the value 0 indicating that the data acknowledgement reference number is unchanged. The initiator MUST discard any data PDUs from the previous execution that it did not acknowledge and the target MUST transmit all Data-in PDUs (if any) starting with the data acknowledgement reference number.  The number of retransmitted PDUs, may or may not be the same as the original transmission depending on if there was a change in MaxRecvDataSeg-mentLength in the reassignment. The target MAY also  send no more Data-In ! PDUs if it sent all its data in PDUs with Dat
 aSN less than ExpDataSN. 

The value of ExpDataSN  MUST be either 0 or higher than the DataSN of the last acknowledged Data-In PDU but not larger than DataSN+1 of the last Data-IN PDU sent by the target. Any other value MUST be ignored by the target. 

For other functions this field is reserved. 

Please let me know what you think. 

Julo

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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=714021323-16082002>Julian,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=714021323-16082002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=714021323-16082002>Looks 
good.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=714021323-16082002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=714021323-16082002>For completeness, 
"<FONT size=3><FONT face="Courier New">The target MAY also &nbsp;send no more 
Data-In ! PDUs if it sent all its data in PDUs with DataSN 
</FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=714021323-16082002><FONT size=3><FONT 
face="Courier New">&nbsp;&nbsp; ^ not sure what that character was suppose to 
be</FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=714021323-16082002><FONT size=3><FONT 
face="Courier New">less than ExpDataSN." should 
be</FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Courier New"><SPAN class=714021323-16082002>"The target MAY 
also send no more Data-In PDUs if all data has been 
acknowledged."</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Courier New"><SPAN class=714021323-16082002>because ExpDataSN 
might be 0 and all the data was already acknowledged. If all the PDUs had DataSN 
less than ExpDataSN, then all the data was also acknowledged so this change 
covers both cases.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Courier New"><SPAN 
class=714021323-16082002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Courier New"><SPAN 
class=714021323-16082002>Pat</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=714021323-16082002><FONT 
face="Courier New" size=3></FONT><BR>&nbsp;</DIV></SPAN></FONT>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma 
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Julian Satran 
[mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, August 16, 2002 4:02 
AM<BR><B>To:</B> ips@ece.cmu.edu<BR><B>Subject:</B> iSCSI - 
ExpDataSN<BR><BR></FONT></DIV><BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>Mallikarjun has 
expressed a lingering concern that we should allow the value 0</FONT> <BR><FONT 
face=sans-serif size=2>for the field ExpDataSN in a TASK REASSIGN TM function to 
say "give me all unacked data" (as we do for SNACK).</FONT> <BR><FONT 
face=sans-serif size=2>Please observe that we already allow the target to do 
this on its own and this change does not affect</FONT> <BR><FONT face=sans-serif 
size=2>any recovery mechanism. To do it I am suggesting the following rephrasing 
of 9.5.6</FONT> <BR><BR><FONT face="Courier New" size=3>For recovery purposes 
the iSCSI target and initiator maintain a data acknowledgement reference number 
- the first input DataSN number unacknowledged by the initiator. When issuing a 
new command this num-ber is set to 0. If the function is TASK REASSIGN, which 
establishes a new connection allegiance for a previously issued Read or 
Bidirec-tional command ExpDataSN will contain either a new data acknowldge-ment 
reference number or the value 0 indicating that the data acknowledgement 
reference number is unchanged. The initiator MUST discard any data PDUs from the 
previous execution that it did not acknowledge and the target MUST transmit all 
Data-in PDUs (if any) starting with the data acknowledgement reference number. 
&nbsp;The number of retransmitted PDUs, may or may not be the same as the 
original transmission depending on if there was a change in 
MaxRecvDataSeg-mentLength in the reassignment. The target MAY also &nbsp;send no 
more Data-In ! PDUs if it sent all its data in PDUs with DataSN less than 
ExpDataSN.</FONT> <BR><BR><FONT face="Courier New" size=3>The value of ExpDataSN 
&nbsp;MUST be either 0 or higher than the DataSN of the last acknowledged 
Data-In PDU but not larger than DataSN+1 of the last Data-IN PDU sent by the 
target. Any other value MUST be ignored by the target. </FONT><BR><BR><FONT 
face="Courier New" size=3>For other functions this field is reserved.</FONT> 
<BR><BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>Please let me know what you think.</FONT> 
<BR><BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>Julo</FONT></BODY></HTML>

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From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Fri Aug 16 21:39:42 2002
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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Don Fraser & FCIP
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 06:07:34 -0500
From: Ralph Weber <ralphoweber@compuserve.com>
Reply-To: roweber@acm.org
To: "Rodriguez, Elizabeth" <ElizabethRodriguez@ieee.org>,David Black <Black_David@emc.com>

Elizabeth, David,

Basically, what Don has found is two more places where
he wants to add the wording of the form "... and the FC
Entity SHALL be notified that a TCP connection has been
terminated." The purpose of this wording is to provide
for eventual notification of system administrators of
FCIP Link problems (which is something that FC-BB-2
handles).

The first is in 10.4.1 and concerns the failure of an
IKE Phase 1. This change also requires the addition of
a row to the table in Appendix h.

The second is in Appendix D.

Both of the sentences Don wants to change have been in
FCIP since rev 9. Rev 10 was the subject of the second
Working Group Last Call.

Since you two are the ones most likely to get roasted
for changing something that should have been reported
during the Working Group Last Call, I think you should
have the last word on whether these changes go now or
get fixed as part of All IETF Last Call.

Thanks.

.Ralph





From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Fri Aug 16 21:40:42 2002
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Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 20:20:01 -0500
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Let's try this one again.

I have received requests for two changes in FCIP that are not strictly 
part of the synchronization with the latest security draft.

The changes are:

1 -----  In Appendix D (Example of synchronization recovery algorithm):

Change from:

  If the retry counter exceeds 3 retries, resynchronization has failed and 
  the TCP Connection is closed.

to:

  If the retry counter exceeds 3 retries, resynchronization has failed and 
  the TCP Connection is closed and the FC entity is notified with the reason 
  for the closure.

2 ----- In 10.4.1 (FCIP Link Initialization Steps)

Change from:

   If IKE Phase 1 fails, the FCIP Link initialization terminates.

to:

   If IKE Phase 1 fails, the FCIP Link initialization terminates 
   and the FC Entity is notified with the reason for the termination.

The first change is standalone. Making the second change requires
adding a row to the table in Appendix H because it adds an interaction
between the FCIP Entity and the FC Entity.

If these changes meet no objections or can be modified to be agreeable
during then next week, they will be included in FCIP rev 12 along
with the other changes needed to bring FCIP in to sync with the
latest IPS security draft.

Thanks.

.Ralph




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To: ips@ece.cmu.edu
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Subject: RE: iSCSI - ExpDataSN
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From: "Julian Satran" <Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com>
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Thanks - to all - Julo
----- Forwarded by Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM on 08/17/2002 05:00 PM -----


"KRUEGER,MARJORIE (HP-Roseville,ex1)" <marjorie_krueger@hp.com>
Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
08/16/2002 10:01 PM

 
        To:     Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL, ips@ece.cmu.edu
        cc: 
        Subject:        RE: iSCSI - ExpDataSN

 

If I understand correctly, this change will align the TASK REASSIGN task 
management function behavior with the SNACK request behavior wrt 
understanding that the value 0 means "send me all unacked data" - that 
makes sense to me. 
 
In the 3rd sentence, it's not clear to me what you mean by "a new data 
acknowledgement ref. number" - shouldn't this be the requestor's ExpDataSN 
or 0?  The use of the word "new" leave the impression that the requestor 
is somehow resetting this number and offering a new one? 
 
Editorial comments: the 3rd sentence in the first paragraph seems to be 
missing a comma after "Bidirectional command"?  And the word 
"acknowledgement" is mis-spelled in the hyphenated spot.  I've corrected 
the text below:
 
For recovery purposes the iSCSI target and initiator maintain a data 
acknowledgement reference number - the first input DataSN number 
unacknowledged by the initiator. When issuing a new command this num-ber 
is set to 0. If the function is TASK REASSIGN, which establishes a new 
connection allegiance for a previously issued Read or Bidirec-tional 
command, ExpDataSN will contain either a new data acknowledge-ment reference number 
or the value 0 indicating that the data acknowledgement reference number 
is unchanged. The initiator MUST discard any data PDUs from the previous 
execution that it did not acknowledge and the target MUST transmit all 
Data-in PDUs (if any) starting with the data acknowledgement reference 
number.  The number of retransmitted PDUs, may or may not be the same as 
the original transmission depending on if there was a change in 
MaxRecvDataSeg-mentLength in the reassignment. The target MAY also  send 
no more Data-In ! PDUs if it sent all its data in PDUs with DataSN less 
than ExpDataSN. 

The value of ExpDataSN  MUST be either 0 or higher than the DataSN of the 
last acknowledged Data-In PDU but not larger than DataSN+1 of the last 
Data-IN PDU sent by the target. Any other value MUST be ignored by the 
target. 

For other functions this field is reserved. 
----- Forwarded by Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM on 08/17/2002 05:00 PM -----


"KRUEGER,MARJORIE (HP-Roseville,ex1)" <marjorie_krueger@hp.com>
08/17/2002 01:58 AM

 
        To:     "'Mallikarjun C.'" <cbm@rose.hp.com>
        cc:     Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL
        Subject:        RE: iSCSI - ExpDataSN

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mallikarjun C. [mailto:cbm@rose.hp.com]
> Sent: Friday, August 16, 2002 3:29 PM
> To: KRUEGER,MARJORIE (HP-Roseville,ex1)
> Cc: Julian Satran
> Subject: Re: iSCSI - ExpDataSN
> 
> 
> Julian, 
> 
> Looks good, thanks.  A couple of quick notes.
> 
> - I suggest "an updated data acknowledgement reference number"
>    to address Marjorie's comment. i.e. S/b "a new" W/ "an updated".

That makes sense to me.

----- Forwarded by Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM on 08/17/2002 05:00 PM -----


pat_thaler@agilent.com
08/17/2002 02:17 AM

 
        To:     Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL, ips@ece.cmu.edu
        cc: 
        Subject:        RE: iSCSI - ExpDataSN

 

Julian,
 
Looks good.
 
For completeness, "The target MAY also  send no more Data-In ! PDUs if it sent all its data 
in PDUs with DataSN 
   ^ not sure what that character was suppose to be
less than ExpDataSN." should be
"The target MAY also send no more Data-In PDUs if all data has been 
acknowledged."
because ExpDataSN might be 0 and all the data was already acknowledged. If 
all the PDUs had DataSN less than ExpDataSN, then all the data was also 
acknowledged so this change covers both cases.
 
Pat

 
-----Original Message-----
From: Julian Satran [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]
Sent: Friday, August 16, 2002 4:02 AM
To: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: iSCSI - ExpDataSN


Mallikarjun has expressed a lingering concern that we should allow the 
value 0 
for the field ExpDataSN in a TASK REASSIGN TM function to say "give me all 
unacked data" (as we do for SNACK). 
Please observe that we already allow the target to do this on its own and 
this change does not affect 
any recovery mechanism. To do it I am suggesting the following rephrasing 
of 9.5.6 

For recovery purposes the iSCSI target and initiator maintain a data 
acknowledgement reference number - the first input DataSN number 
unacknowledged by the initiator. When issuing a new command this num-ber 
is set to 0. If the function is TASK REASSIGN, which establishes a new 
connection allegiance for a previously issued Read or Bidirec-tional 
command ExpDataSN will contain either a new data acknowldge-ment reference 
number or the value 0 indicating that the data acknowledgement reference 
number is unchanged. The initiator MUST discard any data PDUs from the 
previous execution that it did not acknowledge and the target MUST 
transmit all Data-in PDUs (if any) starting with the data acknowledgement 
reference number.  The number of retransmitted PDUs, may or may not be the 
same as the original transmission depending on if there was a change in 
MaxRecvDataSeg-mentLength in the reassignment. The target MAY also  send 
no more Data-In ! PDUs if it sent all its data in PDUs with DataSN less 
than ExpDataSN. 

The value of ExpDataSN  MUST be either 0 or higher than the DataSN of the 
last acknowledged Data-In PDU but not larger than DataSN+1 of the last 
Data-IN PDU sent by the target. Any other value MUST be ignored by the 
target. 

For other functions this field is reserved. 

Please let me know what you think. 

Julo
----- Forwarded by Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM on 08/17/2002 05:00 PM -----


"Mallikarjun C." <cbm@rose.hp.com>
08/17/2002 01:29 AM

 
        To:     "KRUEGER,MARJORIE (HP-Roseville,ex1)" <marjorie_krueger@hp.com>
        cc:     Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL
        Subject:        Re: iSCSI - ExpDataSN

 

Julian, 

Looks good, thanks.  A couple of quick notes.

- I suggest "an updated data acknowledgement reference number"
   to address Marjorie's comment. i.e. S/b "a new" W/ "an updated".

- The last sentence in the first para (that starts "The target MAY also 
send ")
   is unclear.  I assume you're stating that target may redo the whole I/O
   if it wants to.  If that's the case, I suggest dropping this sentence, 
since
   we cover that in 5.2.2.  If that's not what you intended, please 
rephrase.

Thanks.
--
Mallikarjun

Mallikarjun Chadalapaka
Networked Storage Architecture
Network Storage Solutions
Hewlett-Packard MS 5668 
Roseville CA 95747
cbm@rose.hp.com

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "KRUEGER,MARJORIE (HP-Roseville,ex1)" <marjorie_krueger@hp.com>
To: "'Julian Satran'" <Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com>; <ips@ece.cmu.edu>
Sent: Friday, August 16, 2002 12:01 PM
Subject: RE: iSCSI - ExpDataSN


> If I understand correctly, this change will align the TASK REASSIGN task
> management function behavior with the SNACK request behavior wrt
> understanding that the value 0 means "send me all unacked data" - that 
makes
> sense to me. 
> 
> In the 3rd sentence, it's not clear to me what you mean by "a new data
> acknowledgement ref. number" - shouldn't this be the requestor's 
ExpDataSN
> or 0?  The use of the word "new" leave the impression that the requestor 
is
> somehow resetting this number and offering a new one? 
> 
> Editorial comments: the 3rd sentence in the first paragraph seems to be
> missing a comma after "Bidirectional command"?  And the word
> "acknowledgement" is mis-spelled in the hyphenated spot.  I've corrected 
the
> text below:
> 
> 
> For recovery purposes the iSCSI target and initiator maintain a data
> acknowledgement reference number - the first input DataSN number
> unacknowledged by the initiator. When issuing a new command this num-ber 
is
> set to 0. If the function is TASK REASSIGN, which establishes a new
> connection allegiance for a previously issued Read or Bidirec-tional
> command, ExpDataSN will contain either a new data acknowledge-ment 
reference
> number or the value 0 indicating that the data acknowledgement reference
> number is unchanged. The initiator MUST discard any data PDUs from the
> previous execution that it did not acknowledge and the target MUST 
transmit
> all Data-in PDUs (if any) starting with the data acknowledgement 
reference
> number.  The number of retransmitted PDUs, may or may not be the same as 
the
> original transmission depending on if there was a change in
> MaxRecvDataSeg-mentLength in the reassignment. The target MAY also  send 
no
> more Data-In ! PDUs if it sent all its data in PDUs with DataSN less 
than
> ExpDataSN. 
> 
> The value of ExpDataSN  MUST be either 0 or higher than the DataSN of 
the
> last acknowledged Data-In PDU but not larger than DataSN+1 of the last
> Data-IN PDU sent by the target. Any other value MUST be ignored by the
> target. 
> 
> For other functions this field is reserved. 
> 
> 
> 



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<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Thanks - to all - Julo</font>
<br><font size=1 color=#800080 face="sans-serif">----- Forwarded by Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM on 08/17/2002 05:00 PM -----</font>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>&quot;KRUEGER,MARJORIE (HP-Roseville,ex1)&quot; &lt;marjorie_krueger@hp.com&gt;</b></font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu</font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">08/16/2002 10:01 PM</font>
<br>
<td><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL, ips@ece.cmu.edu</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;RE: iSCSI - ExpDataSN</font>
<br>
<br><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font></table>
<br>
<br><font size=3 color=blue face="Times New Roman">If I understand correctly, this change will align the TASK REASSIGN task management function behavior with the SNACK request behavior wrt understanding that the value 0 means &quot;send me all unacked data&quot; - that makes sense to me. &nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=3 color=blue face="Times New Roman">In the 3rd sentence, it's not clear to me what you mean by &quot;a new data acknowledgement ref. number&quot; - shouldn't this be the requestor's ExpDataSN or 0? &nbsp;The use of the word &quot;new&quot; leave the impression that the requestor is somehow resetting this number and offering a new one? </font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=3 color=blue face="Times New Roman">Editorial comments: the 3rd sentence in the first paragraph seems to be missing a comma after &quot;Bidirectional command&quot;? &nbsp;And the word &quot;acknowledgement&quot; is mis-spelled in the hyphenated spot. &nbsp;I've corrected the text below:</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Courier New">For recovery purposes the iSCSI target and initiator maintain a data acknowledgement reference number - the first input DataSN number unacknowledged by the initiator. When issuing a new command this num-ber is set to 0. If the function is TASK REASSIGN, which establishes a new connection allegiance for a previously issued Read or Bidirec-tional command,</font><font size=3 color=blue face="Courier New"> </font><font size=3 face="Courier New">ExpDataSN will contain either a new data acknowledge-ment reference number or the value 0 indicating that the data acknowledgement reference number is unchanged. The initiator MUST discard any data PDUs from the previous execution that it did not acknowledge and the target MUST transmit all Data-in PDUs (if any) starting with the data acknowledgement reference number. &nbsp;The number of retransmitted PDUs, may or may not be the same as the original transmission depending on if there was a change in Max!
RecvDataSeg-mentLength in the reassignment. The target MAY also &nbsp;send no more Data-In ! PDUs if it sent all its data in PDUs with DataSN less than ExpDataSN.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
</font><font size=3 face="Courier New"><br>
The value of ExpDataSN &nbsp;MUST be either 0 or higher than the DataSN of the last acknowledged Data-In PDU but not larger than DataSN+1 of the last Data-IN PDU sent by the target. Any other value MUST be ignored by the target. </font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><br>
</font><font size=3 face="Courier New"><br>
For other functions this field is reserved.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font>
<br><font size=1 color=#800080 face="sans-serif">----- Forwarded by Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM on 08/17/2002 05:00 PM -----</font>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>&quot;KRUEGER,MARJORIE (HP-Roseville,ex1)&quot; &lt;marjorie_krueger@hp.com&gt;</b></font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">08/17/2002 01:58 AM</font>
<br>
<td><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&quot;'Mallikarjun C.'&quot; &lt;cbm@rose.hp.com&gt;</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;RE: iSCSI - ExpDataSN</font>
<br>
<br><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font></table>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: Mallikarjun C. [mailto:cbm@rose.hp.com]<br>
&gt; Sent: Friday, August 16, 2002 3:29 PM<br>
&gt; To: KRUEGER,MARJORIE (HP-Roseville,ex1)<br>
&gt; Cc: Julian Satran<br>
&gt; Subject: Re: iSCSI - ExpDataSN<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Julian, <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Looks good, thanks. &nbsp;A couple of quick notes.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; - I suggest &quot;an updated data acknowledgement reference number&quot;<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;to address Marjorie's comment. i.e. S/b &quot;a new&quot; W/ &quot;an updated&quot;.<br>
<br>
That makes sense to me.<br>
</font>
<br><font size=1 color=#800080 face="sans-serif">----- Forwarded by Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM on 08/17/2002 05:00 PM -----</font>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>pat_thaler@agilent.com</b></font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">08/17/2002 02:17 AM</font>
<br>
<td><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL, ips@ece.cmu.edu</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;RE: iSCSI - ExpDataSN</font>
<br>
<br><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font></table>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="Arial">Julian,</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Arial">Looks good.</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Arial">For completeness, &quot;</font><font size=3 face="Courier New">The target MAY also &nbsp;send no more Data-In ! PDUs if it sent all its data in PDUs with DataSN </font>
<br><font size=3 face="Courier New">&nbsp; &nbsp;^ not sure what that character was suppose to be</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Courier New">less than ExpDataSN.&quot; should be</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Courier New">&quot;The target MAY also send no more Data-In PDUs if all data has been acknowledged.&quot;</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Courier New">because ExpDataSN might be 0 and all the data was already acknowledged. If all the PDUs had DataSN less than ExpDataSN, then all the data was also acknowledged so this change covers both cases.</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Courier New">Pat</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Arial"><br>
 </font>
<br><font size=2 face="Tahoma">-----Original Message-----<b><br>
From:</b> Julian Satran [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]<b><br>
Sent:</b> Friday, August 16, 2002 4:02 AM<b><br>
To:</b> ips@ece.cmu.edu<b><br>
Subject:</b> iSCSI - ExpDataSN<br>
</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
Mallikarjun has expressed a lingering concern that we should allow the value 0</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
for the field ExpDataSN in a TASK REASSIGN TM function to say &quot;give me all unacked data&quot; (as we do for SNACK).</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
Please observe that we already allow the target to do this on its own and this change does not affect</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
any recovery mechanism. To do it I am suggesting the following rephrasing of 9.5.6</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
</font><font size=3 face="Courier New"><br>
For recovery purposes the iSCSI target and initiator maintain a data acknowledgement reference number - the first input DataSN number unacknowledged by the initiator. When issuing a new command this num-ber is set to 0. If the function is TASK REASSIGN, which establishes a new connection allegiance for a previously issued Read or Bidirec-tional command ExpDataSN will contain either a new data acknowldge-ment reference number or the value 0 indicating that the data acknowledgement reference number is unchanged. The initiator MUST discard any data PDUs from the previous execution that it did not acknowledge and the target MUST transmit all Data-in PDUs (if any) starting with the data acknowledgement reference number. &nbsp;The number of retransmitted PDUs, may or may not be the same as the original transmission depending on if there was a change in MaxRecvDataSeg-mentLength in the reassignment. The target MAY also &nbsp;send no more Data-In ! PDUs if it sent all its data in PD!
Us with DataSN less than ExpDataSN.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
</font><font size=3 face="Courier New"><br>
The value of ExpDataSN &nbsp;MUST be either 0 or higher than the DataSN of the last acknowledged Data-In PDU but not larger than DataSN+1 of the last Data-IN PDU sent by the target. Any other value MUST be ignored by the target. </font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><br>
</font><font size=3 face="Courier New"><br>
For other functions this field is reserved.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
</font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
Please let me know what you think.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <br>
</font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
Julo</font>
<br><font size=1 color=#800080 face="sans-serif">----- Forwarded by Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM on 08/17/2002 05:00 PM -----</font>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>&quot;Mallikarjun C.&quot; &lt;cbm@rose.hp.com&gt;</b></font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">08/17/2002 01:29 AM</font>
<br>
<td><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&quot;KRUEGER,MARJORIE (HP-Roseville,ex1)&quot; &lt;marjorie_krueger@hp.com&gt;</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Re: iSCSI - ExpDataSN</font>
<br>
<br><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font></table>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">Julian, <br>
<br>
Looks good, thanks. &nbsp;A couple of quick notes.<br>
<br>
- I suggest &quot;an updated data acknowledgement reference number&quot;<br>
 &nbsp; to address Marjorie's comment. i.e. S/b &quot;a new&quot; W/ &quot;an updated&quot;.<br>
<br>
- The last sentence in the first para (that starts &quot;The target MAY also &nbsp;send &quot;)<br>
 &nbsp; is unclear. &nbsp;I assume you're stating that target may redo the whole I/O<br>
 &nbsp; if it wants to. &nbsp;If that's the case, I suggest dropping this sentence, since<br>
 &nbsp; we cover that in 5.2.2. &nbsp;If that's not what you intended, please rephrase.<br>
<br>
Thanks.<br>
--<br>
Mallikarjun<br>
<br>
Mallikarjun Chadalapaka<br>
Networked Storage Architecture<br>
Network Storage Solutions<br>
Hewlett-Packard MS 5668 <br>
Roseville CA 95747<br>
cbm@rose.hp.com<br>
<br>
----- Original Message ----- <br>
From: &quot;KRUEGER,MARJORIE (HP-Roseville,ex1)&quot; &lt;marjorie_krueger@hp.com&gt;<br>
To: &quot;'Julian Satran'&quot; &lt;Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com&gt;; &lt;ips@ece.cmu.edu&gt;<br>
Sent: Friday, August 16, 2002 12:01 PM<br>
Subject: RE: iSCSI - ExpDataSN<br>
<br>
<br>
&gt; If I understand correctly, this change will align the TASK REASSIGN task<br>
&gt; management function behavior with the SNACK request behavior wrt<br>
&gt; understanding that the value 0 means &quot;send me all unacked data&quot; - that makes<br>
&gt; sense to me. &nbsp;<br>
&gt; &nbsp;<br>
&gt; In the 3rd sentence, it's not clear to me what you mean by &quot;a new data<br>
&gt; acknowledgement ref. number&quot; - shouldn't this be the requestor's ExpDataSN<br>
&gt; or 0? &nbsp;The use of the word &quot;new&quot; leave the impression that the requestor is<br>
&gt; somehow resetting this number and offering a new one? <br>
&gt; &nbsp;<br>
&gt; Editorial comments: the 3rd sentence in the first paragraph seems to be<br>
&gt; missing a comma after &quot;Bidirectional command&quot;? &nbsp;And the word<br>
&gt; &quot;acknowledgement&quot; is mis-spelled in the hyphenated spot. &nbsp;I've corrected the<br>
&gt; text below:<br>
&gt; &nbsp;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; For recovery purposes the iSCSI target and initiator maintain a data<br>
&gt; acknowledgement reference number - the first input DataSN number<br>
&gt; unacknowledged by the initiator. When issuing a new command this num-ber is<br>
&gt; set to 0. If the function is TASK REASSIGN, which establishes a new<br>
&gt; connection allegiance for a previously issued Read or Bidirec-tional<br>
&gt; command, ExpDataSN will contain either a new data acknowledge-ment reference<br>
&gt; number or the value 0 indicating that the data acknowledgement reference<br>
&gt; number is unchanged. The initiator MUST discard any data PDUs from the<br>
&gt; previous execution that it did not acknowledge and the target MUST transmit<br>
&gt; all Data-in PDUs (if any) starting with the data acknowledgement reference<br>
&gt; number. &nbsp;The number of retransmitted PDUs, may or may not be the same as the<br>
&gt; original transmission depending on if there was a change in<br>
&gt; MaxRecvDataSeg-mentLength in the reassignment. The target MAY also &nbsp;send no<br>
&gt; more Data-In ! PDUs if it sent all its data in PDUs with DataSN less than<br>
&gt; ExpDataSN. <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; The value of ExpDataSN &nbsp;MUST be either 0 or higher than the DataSN of the<br>
&gt; last acknowledged Data-In PDU but not larger than DataSN+1 of the last<br>
&gt; Data-IN PDU sent by the target. Any other value MUST be ignored by the<br>
&gt; target. <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; For other functions this field is reserved. <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
<br>
</font>
<br>
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From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Sat Aug 17 12:11:50 2002
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From: "Dave Peterson" <dap@cisco.com>
To: "Ips@Ece. Cmu. Edu" <ips@ece.cmu.edu>
Subject: igate draft
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 10:43:46 -0500
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Howdy All,

Until I complete a text version of this draft,
a PDF of the igate draft can be found at
ftp://ftpeng.cisco.com/dap/igate.pdf

Please review and send comments. I'll be away from the laptop next week, as
such
will not be reading any emails for a while...

Thanks...dap



From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Mon Aug 19 07:29:29 2002
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To: Glen Turner <glen.turner@aarnet.edu.au>
Cc: Eddy Quicksall <eddy_quicksall@ivivity.com>,
        "ips@ece. cmu. edu (E-mail)" <ips@ece.cmu.edu>
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Subject: Re: iSCSI: ping data size
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From: "Julian Satran" <Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com>
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Glen,

A DoS attack can use several other mechanisms too (not only NOPs). And it 
can be avoided by just
having the target of the attack dropping the connection with an initiator 
that issues excessive amount of NOPs with data and limiting the allowed 
ping size.

Julo




Glen Turner <glen.turner@aarnet.edu.au>
08/19/2002 09:19 AM

 
        To:     Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL
        cc:     Eddy Quicksall <eddy_quicksall@ivivity.com>, "ips@ece. cmu. edu (E-mail)" 
<ips@ece.cmu.edu>
        Subject:        Re: iSCSI: ping data size

 

Julian Satran wrote:
> 
> The originator may be trying to measure something. Allowing the 
> responder to twart the answer would be counterproductive.

As pointed out before, this allows a denial of service attack on
public iSCSI servers (such as CD-ROM stackers in libraries)

-- 
  Glen Turner                                 Network Engineer
  (08) 8303 3936      Australian Academic and Research Network
  glen.turner@aarnet.edu.au          http://www.aarnet.edu.au/
--
  The revolution will not be televised, it will be digitised




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<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Glen,</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">A DoS attack can use several other mechanisms too (not only NOPs). And it can be avoided by just</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">having the target of the attack dropping the connection with an initiator that issues excessive amount of NOPs with data and limiting the allowed ping size.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Julo</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>Glen Turner &lt;glen.turner@aarnet.edu.au&gt;</b></font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">08/19/2002 09:19 AM</font>
<br>
<td><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Eddy Quicksall &lt;eddy_quicksall@ivivity.com&gt;, &quot;ips@ece. cmu. edu (E-mail)&quot; &lt;ips@ece.cmu.edu&gt;</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Re: iSCSI: ping data size</font>
<br>
<br><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font></table>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">Julian Satran wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; The originator may be trying to measure something. Allowing the <br>
&gt; responder to twart the answer would be counterproductive.<br>
<br>
As pointed out before, this allows a denial of service attack on<br>
public iSCSI servers (such as CD-ROM stackers in libraries)<br>
<br>
-- <br>
 &nbsp;Glen Turner &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Network Engineer<br>
 &nbsp;(08) 8303 3936 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Australian Academic and Research Network<br>
 &nbsp;glen.turner@aarnet.edu.au &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;http://www.aarnet.edu.au/<br>
--<br>
 &nbsp;The revolution will not be televised, it will be digitised<br>
<br>
</font>
<br>
<br>
--=_alternative 0039D786C2256C1A_=--


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Tue Aug 20 02:10:43 2002
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Subject: iSCSI - Markers - a clarification
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When answering to a private note I realized that we do not say explicitly 
in the draft if markers are included 
in the CRC calculation.  As many of you must have guessed they are not.

I  have added one line to the marker appendix stating that markers are not 
included.

Julo
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<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">When answering to a private note I realized that we do not say explicitly in the draft if markers are included </font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">in the CRC calculation. &nbsp;As many of you must have guessed they are not.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">I &nbsp;have added one line to the marker appendix stating that markers are not included.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Julo</font>
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From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Tue Aug 20 08:23:47 2002
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Subject: iSCSI-Eddy Quicksall's diagrams available
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Dear all,

Eddy Quicksall has gracefully agreed to place some iSCSI diagrams in pdf 
format
on my site. The diagrams help explain some iSCSI notions.

I do not know however what their copyright status is - so unless we get 
explicit permission from
please use them only for your own education.

Thanks Eddy,
Julo
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<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Dear all,</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Eddy Quicksall has gracefully agreed to place some iSCSI diagrams in pdf format</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">on my site. The diagrams help explain some iSCSI notions.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">I do not know however what their copyright status is - so unless we get explicit permission from</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">please use them only for your own education.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Thanks Eddy,</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Julo</font>
--=_alternative 00407418C2256C1B_=--


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Tue Aug 20 13:43:28 2002
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From: Hutchinson_Adam@emc.com
To: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: Generation of CHAP Secrets...
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 13:05:38 -0400
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Do the following statements mean that users should not be allowed to create
their own secrets (passwords) to ensure the randomness of all secrets? 
 
When CHAP is performed over a non-encrypted channel, it is vulnerable
to an off-line dictionary attack. Implementations MUST support
use of up to 128 bits random CHAP secrets, including the means to
generate such secrets and to accept them from an external generation
source. Implementations MUST NOT provide secret generation (or expansion)
means other than random generation.
 
---
Adam
 
 

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class=3DEmailStyle15><font color=3Dblack><span =
style=3D'mso-ansi-font-size:12.0pt;
mso-ascii-font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-hansi-font-family:"Times =
New Roman";
mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></=
span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in;mso-layout-grid-align:none;
text-autospace:none'><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3DCourier><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Courier;color:black'>When CHAP is =
performed
over a non-encrypted channel, it is vulnerable</span></font><font =
color=3Dblack
face=3DCourier><span =
style=3D'font-family:Courier;color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p>=
</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in;mso-layout-grid-align:none;
text-autospace:none'><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3DCourier><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Courier;color:black'>to an =
off-line
dictionary attack. Implementations MUST support</span></font><font =
color=3Dblack
face=3DCourier><span =
style=3D'font-family:Courier;color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p>=
</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in;mso-layout-grid-align:none;
text-autospace:none'><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3DCourier><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Courier;color:black'>use of up to =
128 bits
random CHAP secrets, including the means to</span></font><font =
color=3Dblack
face=3DCourier><span =
style=3D'font-family:Courier;color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p>=
</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in;mso-layout-grid-align:none;
text-autospace:none'><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3DCourier><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Courier;color:black'>generate =
such secrets
and to accept them from an external generation</span></font><font =
color=3Dblack
face=3DCourier><span =
style=3D'font-family:Courier;color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p>=
</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in;mso-layout-grid-align:none;
text-autospace:none'><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3DCourier><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Courier;color:black'>source.
Implementations MUST NOT provide secret generation (or =
expansion)</span></font><font
color=3Dblack face=3DCourier><span =
style=3D'font-family:Courier;color:black;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in;mso-layout-grid-align:none;
text-autospace:none'><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3DCourier><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Courier;color:black'>means other =
than
random generation.</span></font><font color=3Dblack =
face=3DCourier><span
style=3D'font-family:Courier;color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p>=
</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-layout-grid-align:none;text-autospace:none'><font
size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3DCourier><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Courier;
color:black'><![if =
!supportEmptyParas]>&nbsp;<![endif]></span></font><font
color=3Dblack face=3DCourier><span =
style=3D'font-family:Courier;color:black;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-layout-grid-align:none;text-autospace:none'><font
size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3DCourier><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Courier;
color:black'>---</span></font><font color=3Dblack face=3DCourier><span
style=3D'font-family:Courier;color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p>=
</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 color=3Dblack face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Adam</span></font><font size=3D2
color=3Dblack><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o=
:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle15><font size=3D3 =
color=3Dblack
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;mso-ansi-font-size:12.0pt;
mso-ascii-font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-hansi-font-family:"Times =
New Roman";
mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"'><![if =
!supportEmptyParas]>&nbsp;<![endif]></span></font></span><span
class=3DEmailStyle15><font color=3Dblack><span =
style=3D'mso-ansi-font-size:12.0pt;
mso-ascii-font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-hansi-font-family:"Times =
New Roman";
mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New =
Roman";color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></=
span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3DEmailStyle15><font size=3D3 =
color=3Dblack
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;mso-ansi-font-size:12.0pt;
mso-ascii-font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-hansi-font-family:"Times =
New Roman";
mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"'><![if =
!supportEmptyParas]>&nbsp;<![endif]></span></font></span><span
class=3DEmailStyle15><font color=3Dblack><span =
style=3D'mso-ansi-font-size:12.0pt;
mso-ascii-font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-hansi-font-family:"Times =
New Roman";
mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";color:black;mso-color-alt:windowt=
ext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p>

</div>

</body>

</html>

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From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Tue Aug 20 14:50:44 2002
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From: Black_David@emc.com
To: Hutchinson_Adam@emc.com, ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: Generation of CHAP Secrets...
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 14:22:40 -0400
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> Do the following statements mean that users should not be allowed to
> create their own secrets (passwords) to ensure the randomness of all
secrets?
>  
> When CHAP is performed over a non-encrypted channel, it is vulnerable
> to an off-line dictionary attack. Implementations MUST support
> use of up to 128 bits random CHAP secrets, including the means to
> generate such secrets and to accept them from an external generation
> source. Implementations MUST NOT provide secret generation (or expansion)
> means other than random generation.

Yes, that is correct.  iSCSI requires 96 or more bits of randomness in CHAP
secrets to thwart exhaustive search and dictionary attacks.  A typical user-
chosen password/secret has less than 20 bits of randomness.  If weaker
CHAP secrets are used, the iSCSI connection MUST be encrypted:

   An administrative entity of an environment in which CHAP is used with 
   a secret that has less than 96 random bits MUST enforce IPsec encryp-
   tion (according to the implementation requirements in Section 7.3.2 
   Confidentiality) to protect the connection.

Thanks,
--David
---------------------------------------------------
David L. Black, Senior Technologist
EMC Corporation, 42 South St., Hopkinton, MA  01748
+1 (508) 249-6449            FAX: +1 (508) 497-8018
black_david@emc.com       Mobile: +1 (978) 394-7754
---------------------------------------------------


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Tue Aug 20 15:45:57 2002
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To: ips@ece.cmu.edu
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Subject: Re: Generation of CHAP Secrets...
X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.9  November 16, 2001
From: "Julian Satran" <Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com>
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That is correct.  It also says that you should not knowingly provide means 
to extend a "short(weak)" secret into an apparently long secret.

Julo




Hutchinson_Adam@emc.com
Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
08/20/2002 08:05 PM

 
        To:     ips@ece.cmu.edu
        cc: 
        Subject:        Generation of CHAP Secrets...

 

Do the following statements mean that users should not be allowed to 
create their own secrets (passwords) to ensure the randomness of all 
secrets? 
 
When CHAP is performed over a non-encrypted channel, it is vulnerable
to an off-line dictionary attack. Implementations MUST support
use of up to 128 bits random CHAP secrets, including the means to
generate such secrets and to accept them from an external generation
source. Implementations MUST NOT provide secret generation (or expansion)
means other than random generation.
 
---
Adam
 
 




--=_alternative 006940ECC2256C1B_=
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"


<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">That is correct. &nbsp;It also says that you should not knowingly provide means to extend a &quot;short(weak)&quot; secret into an apparently long secret.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Julo</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>Hutchinson_Adam@emc.com</b></font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu</font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">08/20/2002 08:05 PM</font>
<br>
<td><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;ips@ece.cmu.edu</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Generation of CHAP Secrets...</font>
<br>
<br><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font></table>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">Do the following statements mean that users should not be allowed to create their own secrets (passwords) to ensure the randomness of all secrets? </font>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">&nbsp;</font>
<p><font size=3 face="Courier">When CHAP is performed over a non-encrypted channel, it is vulnerable</font>
<p><font size=3 face="Courier">to an off-line dictionary attack. Implementations MUST support</font>
<p><font size=3 face="Courier">use of up to 128 bits random CHAP secrets, including the means to</font>
<p><font size=3 face="Courier">generate such secrets and to accept them from an external generation</font>
<p><font size=3 face="Courier">source. Implementations MUST NOT provide secret generation (or expansion)</font>
<p><font size=3 face="Courier">means other than random generation.</font>
<p><font size=3 face="Courier">&nbsp;</font>
<p><font size=3 face="Courier">---</font>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">Adam</font>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">&nbsp;</font>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">&nbsp;</font>
<p>
<p>
<br>
<br>
--=_alternative 006940ECC2256C1B_=--


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Tue Aug 20 23:34:47 2002
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From: VAHUJA@aol.com
Message-ID: <a0.2bb3b393.2a945a97@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 22:53:11 EDT
Subject: Re: Generation of CHAP Secrets...
To: Black_David@emc.com
CC: ips@ece.cmu.edu
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the iSCSI draft talks of up to 128 bits of shared secret. While performing 
HASH, the MD5 will yield 128 bits, but SHA-1 (recommended Hashing algorithm, 
Sec 7.3.1) will generate 160 bits.  Seems to me that the shared secret should 
be allowed to be up to 160 bits..unless we allow MD5 for CHAP and then 
possibly pad the hash? Or am I missing something here? 


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Wed Aug 21 10:29:48 2002
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From: Black_David@emc.com
To: VAHUJA@aol.com
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: Generation of CHAP Secrets...
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 09:50:08 -0400
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> the iSCSI draft talks of up to 128 bits of shared secret.  While
performing 
> HASH, the MD5 will yield 128 bits, but SHA-1 (recommended Hashing
algorithm, 
> Sec 7.3.1) will generate 160 bits.  Seems to me that the shared secret
should 
> be allowed to be up to 160 bits..unless we allow MD5 for CHAP and then 
> possibly pad the hash? Or am I missing something here?

There's no inherent upper limit on the size of the shared secret and it's
not related to the output size of the hash algorithms.  128 bits is more
than enough to get the job done, hence there's no need to require that
implementations support more than that.  Generating more random bits and
tossing some of them away is fine (e.g., IPsec ESP does exactly this to
make its MD5 and SHA-1 HMACs fit in 96 bits), but they have to be *true*
random bits - more below.

While SHA-1 is the required hash for IPsec ESP, it does not work with
CHAP for historical reasons (one has to use MD5) - see, the IANA registry,
the PPP AUTHENTICATION ALGORITHMS section of:

	http://www.iana.org/assignments/ppp-numbers

While I'm sure Vijay did not mean to imply this, I want to warn
implementers away from a potentially disastrous implementation shortcut:

	**DO NOT** run a weak secret (e.g., password) through a hash
	or similar algorithm to generate something that appears to be
	a sufficiently-sized random CHAP secret.

The result of doing this is no stronger than the original weak
secret (e.g., password) - if this shortcut technique is used, the
result falls under iSCSI's "MUST enforce IPsec encryption" language.

This is a well-known implementation mistake (e.g.,
Netscape was publicly bitten by it several years ago).  A specific
example is that if one runs a password with 15 bits of randomness through
MD5, the resulting 128 bit output still has 15 bits of randomness - an
attacker need only run the dictionary words through MD5 [15 bit search
space] to mount an exhaustive attack, and the fact that the quantities
being checked are 128 bits in size does not improve security.

If one wants 128 bits of randomness, one needs to start with 128 random
bits - it really is that simple.  Using a hash does not increase the
amount of randomness.

Thanks,
--David
---------------------------------------------------
David L. Black, Senior Technologist
EMC Corporation, 42 South St., Hopkinton, MA  01748
+1 (508) 249-6449            FAX: +1 (508) 497-8018
black_david@emc.com       Mobile: +1 (978) 394-7754
---------------------------------------------------


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--Omf2153miYq3yK31SCaky2Nk2F2J4--


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Wed Aug 21 18:30:47 2002
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Reply-To: <bill@strahm.net>
From: "Bill Strahm" <bill@strahm.net>
To: <Black_David@emc.com>, <ips@ece.cmu.edu>
Subject: RE: Generation of CHAP Secrets...
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 14:43:04 -0700
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Question...

How will my endpoint determine the randomness of the CHAP key and
therefor determine if the CHAP key is valid for the encryption level of
the link ?  I am assuming by the requirement as stated that I have to
test the CHAP secret for randomness to determine that there are really
more than 96 bits of randomness in the secret, and if there are not, and
the link is not encrypted reject the connection.

Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu [mailto:owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu] On Behalf Of
Black_David@emc.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 11:23 AM
To: Hutchinson_Adam@emc.com; ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: Generation of CHAP Secrets...


> Do the following statements mean that users should not be allowed to 
> create their own secrets (passwords) to ensure the randomness of all
secrets?
>  
> When CHAP is performed over a non-encrypted channel, it is vulnerable 
> to an off-line dictionary attack. Implementations MUST support use of 
> up to 128 bits random CHAP secrets, including the means to generate 
> such secrets and to accept them from an external generation source. 
> Implementations MUST NOT provide secret generation (or expansion) 
> means other than random generation.

Yes, that is correct.  iSCSI requires 96 or more bits of randomness in
CHAP secrets to thwart exhaustive search and dictionary attacks.  A
typical user- chosen password/secret has less than 20 bits of
randomness.  If weaker CHAP secrets are used, the iSCSI connection MUST
be encrypted:

   An administrative entity of an environment in which CHAP is used with

   a secret that has less than 96 random bits MUST enforce IPsec encryp-
   tion (according to the implementation requirements in Section 7.3.2 
   Confidentiality) to protect the connection.

Thanks,
--David
---------------------------------------------------
David L. Black, Senior Technologist
EMC Corporation, 42 South St., Hopkinton, MA  01748
+1 (508) 249-6449            FAX: +1 (508) 497-8018
black_david@emc.com       Mobile: +1 (978) 394-7754
---------------------------------------------------





From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Wed Aug 21 18:34:15 2002
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From: Black_David@emc.com
To: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: Generation of CHAP Secrets...
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 18:10:31 -0400
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Bill,

> How will my endpoint determine the randomness of the CHAP key and
> therefor determine if the CHAP key is valid for the encryption level of
> the link ?  I am assuming by the requirement as stated that I have to
> test the CHAP secret for randomness to determine that there are really
> more than 96 bits of randomness in the secret, and if there are not, and
> the link is not encrypted reject the connection.

The randomness requirement is placed on the "administrative entity" which
is not the iSCSI protocol endpoint.  The CHAP secret does not have to
be checked for randomness *by the iSCSI endpoint* (good thing, as it's
not possible to check a bit string for a minimum amount of randomness if
one does not know how it was generated).  The thing that an iSCSI endpoint
SHOULD do is check the size of the CHAP secret if it can determine it (e.g.,
if an external RADIUS server is being used, an iSCSI endpoint may not know
the size of the CHAP secret being used to authenticate its peer):

   A compliant implementation SHOULD NOT continue with the login step in 
   which it should send a CHAP response (CHAP_R - Section 10.1.4 Chal-
   lenge Handshake Authentication Protocol (CHAP)) unless it can verify 
   that either the CHAP secret is at least 96 bits, or that IPsec 
   encryption is being used to protect the connection.

Also, please note the following related requirement:

	Implementations MUST NOT provide secret generation (or expansion)
	means other than random generation.

This text prohibits the "disastrous implementation shortcut"
that I warned about in a previous message.

Thanks,
--David
---------------------------------------------------
David L. Black, Senior Technologist
EMC Corporation, 42 South St., Hopkinton, MA  01748
+1 (508) 249-6449            FAX: +1 (508) 497-8018
black_david@emc.com       Mobile: +1 (978) 394-7754
---------------------------------------------------


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Wed Aug 21 23:01:43 2002
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Subject: Fwd: Generation of CHAP Secrets...
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David,

I believe, the secret size does have a direct impact on the cryptograohic 
strength of the hash. If the secret size is less than the hashed value of the 
algorithm, then it makes it easier for an exhaustive search attack. For 
reference, here is a quote from the CHAP RFC page 3:

The CHAP algorithm requires that the length of the secret MUST be at
   least 1 octet.  The secret SHOULD be at least as large and
   unguessable as a well-chosen password.  It is preferred that the
   secret be at least the length of the hash value for the hashing
   algorithm chosen (16 octets for MD5).  This is to ensure a
   sufficiently large range for the secret to provide protection against
   exhaustive search attacks.

In a message dated 8/21/2002 9:50:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Black_David@emc.com writes:


> There's no inherent upper limit on the size of the shared secret and it's
> not related to the output size of the hash algorithms.  128 bits is more
> than enough to get the job done, hence there's no need to require that
> implementations support more than that.  Generating more random bits and
> tossing some of them away is fine (e.g., IPsec ESP does exactly this to
> make its MD5 and SHA-1 HMACs fit in 96 bits), but they have to be *true*
> random bits - more below.
> 
> 


--part1_7a.2bc348c0.2a95a484_alt_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=2>David,<BR>
<BR>
I believe, the secret size does have a direct impact on the cryptograohic strength of the hash. If the secret size is less than the hashed value of the algorithm, then it makes it easier for an exhaustive search attack. For reference, here is a quote from the CHAP RFC page 3:<BR>
<BR>
The CHAP algorithm requires that the length of the secret MUST be at<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp; least 1 octet.&nbsp; The secret SHOULD be at least as large and<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp; unguessable as a well-chosen password.&nbsp; It is preferred that the<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp; secret be at least the length of the hash value for the hashing<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp; algorithm chosen (16 octets for MD5).&nbsp; This is to ensure a<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp; sufficiently large range for the secret to provide protection against<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp; exhaustive search attacks.<BR>
<BR>
In a message dated 8/21/2002 9:50:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Black_David@emc.com writes:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">There's no inherent upper limit on the size of the shared secret and it's<BR>
not related to the output size of the hash algorithms.&nbsp; 128 bits is more<BR>
than enough to get the job done, hence there's no need to require that<BR>
implementations support more than that.&nbsp; Generating more random bits and<BR>
tossing some of them away is fine (e.g., IPsec ESP does exactly this to<BR>
make its MD5 and SHA-1 HMACs fit in 96 bits), but they have to be *true*<BR>
random bits - more below.<BR>
<BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR>
</FONT></HTML>
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From: Black_David@emc.com
To: VAHUJA@aol.com
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: Generation of CHAP Secrets...
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 09:50:08 -0400
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> the iSCSI draft talks of up to 128 bits of shared secret.  While
performing 
> HASH, the MD5 will yield 128 bits, but SHA-1 (recommended Hashing
algorithm, 
> Sec 7.3.1) will generate 160 bits.  Seems to me that the shared secret
should 
> be allowed to be up to 160 bits..unless we allow MD5 for CHAP and then 
> possibly pad the hash? Or am I missing something here?

There's no inherent upper limit on the size of the shared secret and it's
not related to the output size of the hash algorithms.  128 bits is more
than enough to get the job done, hence there's no need to require that
implementations support more than that.  Generating more random bits and
tossing some of them away is fine (e.g., IPsec ESP does exactly this to
make its MD5 and SHA-1 HMACs fit in 96 bits), but they have to be *true*
random bits - more below.

While SHA-1 is the required hash for IPsec ESP, it does not work with
CHAP for historical reasons (one has to use MD5) - see, the IANA registry,
the PPP AUTHENTICATION ALGORITHMS section of:

    http://www.iana.org/assignments/ppp-numbers

While I'm sure Vijay did not mean to imply this, I want to warn
implementers away from a potentially disastrous implementation shortcut:

    **DO NOT** run a weak secret (e.g., password) through a hash
    or similar algorithm to generate something that appears to be
    a sufficiently-sized random CHAP secret.

The result of doing this is no stronger than the original weak
secret (e.g., password) - if this shortcut technique is used, the
result falls under iSCSI's "MUST enforce IPsec encryption" language.

This is a well-known implementation mistake (e.g.,
Netscape was publicly bitten by it several years ago).  A specific
example is that if one runs a password with 15 bits of randomness through
MD5, the resulting 128 bit output still has 15 bits of randomness - an
attacker need only run the dictionary words through MD5 [15 bit search
space] to mount an exhaustive attack, and the fact that the quantities
being checked are 128 bits in size does not improve security.

If one wants 128 bits of randomness, one needs to start with 128 random
bits - it really is that simple.  Using a hash does not increase the
amount of randomness.

Thanks,
--David
---------------------------------------------------
David L. Black, Senior Technologist
EMC Corporation, 42 South St., Hopkinton, MA  01748
+1 (508) 249-6449            FAX: +1 (508) 497-8018
black_david@emc.com       Mobile: +1 (978) 394-7754
---------------------------------------------------

--part1_7a.2bc348c0.2a95a484_boundary--


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Thu Aug 22 11:41:18 2002
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Reply-To: "Anshul Chadda" <anshul.chadda@trebia.com>
From: "Anshul Chadda" <achadda@trebia.com>
To: <ips@ece.cmu.edu>
Subject: typo in Appendix D SendTargets Operation
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 10:57:26 -0400
Organization: Trebia Networks
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Hi all:

In Appendix D, page 254, in the following paragraph there is an extra =
"not" after MUST NOT. I think it is a typo.

"A SendTargets response MUST NOT not contain target names if there are =
no targets for the requesting initiator to access."

Thanks,

Anshul Chadda
Trebia Networks
33 Nagog Park
Acton, MA 01720
Work:978-264-7654
Cell:603-591-1375

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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.3315.2870" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DCourier>
<P align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Hi all:</FONT></P>
<P align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>In Appendix D, page =
254,&nbsp;in the=20
following paragraph there is an extra "not" after MUST NOT. I think it =
is a=20
typo.</FONT></P>
<P align=3Dleft>"A SendTargets response MUST NOT <U>not </U>contain =
target names=20
if there are no targets for the requesting initiator to=20
access."</P></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thanks,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Anshul Chadda</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Trebia Networks<BR>33 Nagog =
Park<BR>Acton, MA=20
01720<BR>Work:978-264-7654<BR>Cell:603-591-1375</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML=
>

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From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Thu Aug 22 15:07:42 2002
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From: Black_David@emc.com
To: VAHUJA@aol.com
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: Generation of CHAP Secrets...
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 14:30:18 -0400
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Vijay,

> I believe, the secret size does have a direct impact on the cryptograohic
> strength of the hash. If the secret size is less than the hashed value of
> the algorithm, then it makes it easier for an exhaustive search attack.
For
> reference, here is a quote from the CHAP RFC page 3:
> 
>    The CHAP algorithm requires that the length of the secret MUST be at
>    least 1 octet.  The secret SHOULD be at least as large and
>    unguessable as a well-chosen password.  It is preferred that the
>    secret be at least the length of the hash value for the hashing
>    algorithm chosen (16 octets for MD5).  This is to ensure a
>    sufficiently large range for the secret to provide protection against
>    exhaustive search attacks.

iSCSI has gone above and beyond that by making the minimum length (MUST)
12 octets, and by requiring random generation, making its CHAP secrets
considerably larger and harder to guess than a well-chosen password.
The requirement for support of secrets up to 128 bits in size encompasses
the "preferred" language above.  Are you arguing that 96 bits of search
space (> 10**27 possibilities) is insufficient protection against an
exhaustive search attack?  I agree that more than 128 bits of secret
is pointless for MD5 because the output size bounds the size of the
search space at somewhere in the neighborhood of 128 bits.

Thanks,
--David
---------------------------------------------------
David L. Black, Senior Technologist
EMC Corporation, 42 South St., Hopkinton, MA  01748
+1 (508) 249-6449            FAX: +1 (508) 497-8018
black_david@emc.com       Mobile: +1 (978) 394-7754
---------------------------------------------------


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Thu Aug 22 15:09:25 2002
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Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 11:48:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: Bill Studenmund <wrstuden@wasabisystems.com>
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Subject: Re: Fwd: Generation of CHAP Secrets...
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On Wed, 21 Aug 2002 VAHUJA@aol.com wrote:

> David,
>
> I believe, the secret size does have a direct impact on the cryptograohic
> strength of the hash. If the secret size is less than the hashed value of the
> algorithm, then it makes it easier for an exhaustive search attack. For
> reference, here is a quote from the CHAP RFC page 3:

How is the size of the hash a magic number in terms of exhaustive search
attacks? Regardless of the size of the secret, you have to hash the I
value, the secret, and the challenge.

I see how making the secret longer is good, but I just don't see how
making the secret the size of the hash really changes the behavior. Once
we say have the secret at like 96 or 128 bits, do we really NEED more?
Sure, we can let folks choose more, but do we NEED it (a la we should
require it)?

Or do these hash functions (MD5, SHA-1) not stir all of the bits well, and
thus if you don't feed in about the number of bytes in the hash you get
poor results?

Take care,

Bill




From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Thu Aug 22 16:36:49 2002
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To: "Anshul Chadda" <anshul.chadda@trebia.com>
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu, owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
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Subject: Re: typo in Appendix D SendTargets Operation
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thanks - Julo




"Anshul Chadda" <achadda@trebia.com>
Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
08/22/2002 05:57 PM
Please respond to "Anshul Chadda"

 
        To:     <ips@ece.cmu.edu>
        cc: 
        Subject:        typo in Appendix D SendTargets Operation

 

Hi all:
In Appendix D, page 254, in the following paragraph there is an extra 
"not" after MUST NOT. I think it is a typo.
"A SendTargets response MUST NOT not contain target names if there are no targets for the requesting initiator 
to access."
Thanks,
 
Anshul Chadda
Trebia Networks
33 Nagog Park
Acton, MA 01720
Work:978-264-7654
Cell:603-591-1375


--=_alternative 006D210FC2256C1D_=
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<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">thanks - Julo</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>&quot;Anshul Chadda&quot; &lt;achadda@trebia.com&gt;</b></font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu</font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">08/22/2002 05:57 PM</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Please respond to &quot;Anshul Chadda&quot;</font>
<br>
<td><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&lt;ips@ece.cmu.edu&gt;</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;typo in Appendix D SendTargets Operation</font>
<br>
<br><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font></table>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="Arial">Hi all:</font>
<p><font size=2 face="Arial">In Appendix D, page 254, in the following paragraph there is an extra &quot;not&quot; after MUST NOT. I think it is a typo.</font>
<p><font size=3 face="Courier">&quot;A SendTargets response MUST NOT <u>not </u>contain target names if there are no targets for the requesting initiator to access.&quot;</font>
<p><font size=2 face="Arial">Thanks,</font>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">&nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Arial">Anshul Chadda</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Arial">Trebia Networks<br>
33 Nagog Park<br>
Acton, MA 01720<br>
Work:978-264-7654<br>
Cell:603-591-1375</font>
<br>
<br>
--=_alternative 006D210FC2256C1D_=--


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Thu Aug 22 17:29:18 2002
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Hi Julian,

I have a question on Security Phase negotiation.  From section 4.3.1:
 
  If the initiator is willing to negotiate iSCSI security, but is 
  unwilling to make the initial parameter proposal and may accept a 
  connection without iSCSI security, it issues the Login with the T bit 
  set to 1, the CSG set to SecurityNegotiation, and NSG set to LoginOp-
  erationalNegotiation. If the target is also ready to skip security, 
  the login response contains only the TargetPortalGroupTag key (see 
  Section 11.9 TargetPortalGroupTag), the T bit set to 1, the CSG set 
  to SecurityNegotiation, and NSG set to LoginOperationalNegotiation.

My question is, what should the Target do if the Initiator issues
the Login with the T bit set to 0 and the Target does want to
negotiate iSCSI security (AuthMethod).

1. Keep replying with an empty login with T=0 until the
   Initiator sends T=1.
2. Reply immediately with T=0 and AuthMethod.
3. Decide this is a protocol error and close the connection.
4. Do something else?

Regards,
Steve Senum


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Fri Aug 23 00:19:17 2002
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From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Fri Aug 23 04:57:27 2002
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To: Steve Senum <ssenum@cisco.com>
Cc: ietf-ips <ips@ece.cmu.edu>
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Subject: Re: iSCSI: Security Phase Question
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From: "Julian Satran" <Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com>
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the lucky number is 2 - julo




Steve Senum <ssenum@cisco.com>
08/22/2002 11:56 PM

 
        To:     ietf-ips <ips@ece.cmu.edu>
        cc:     Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL
        Subject:        iSCSI: Security Phase Question

 

Hi Julian,

I have a question on Security Phase negotiation.  From section 4.3.1:
 
  If the initiator is willing to negotiate iSCSI security, but is 
  unwilling to make the initial parameter proposal and may accept a 
  connection without iSCSI security, it issues the Login with the T bit 
  set to 1, the CSG set to SecurityNegotiation, and NSG set to LoginOp-
  erationalNegotiation. If the target is also ready to skip security, 
  the login response contains only the TargetPortalGroupTag key (see 
  Section 11.9 TargetPortalGroupTag), the T bit set to 1, the CSG set 
  to SecurityNegotiation, and NSG set to LoginOperationalNegotiation.

My question is, what should the Target do if the Initiator issues
the Login with the T bit set to 0 and the Target does want to
negotiate iSCSI security (AuthMethod).

1. Keep replying with an empty login with T=0 until the
   Initiator sends T=1.
2. Reply immediately with T=0 and AuthMethod.
3. Decide this is a protocol error and close the connection.
4. Do something else?

Regards,
Steve Senum



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<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">the lucky number is 2 - julo</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>Steve Senum &lt;ssenum@cisco.com&gt;</b></font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">08/22/2002 11:56 PM</font>
<br>
<td><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;ietf-ips &lt;ips@ece.cmu.edu&gt;</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;iSCSI: Security Phase Question</font>
<br>
<br><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font></table>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">Hi Julian,<br>
<br>
I have a question on Security Phase negotiation. &nbsp;From section 4.3.1:<br>
 <br>
 &nbsp;If the initiator is willing to negotiate iSCSI security, but is <br>
 &nbsp;unwilling to make the initial parameter proposal and may accept a <br>
 &nbsp;connection without iSCSI security, it issues the Login with the T bit <br>
 &nbsp;set to 1, the CSG set to SecurityNegotiation, and NSG set to LoginOp-<br>
 &nbsp;erationalNegotiation. If the target is also ready to skip security, <br>
 &nbsp;the login response contains only the TargetPortalGroupTag key (see <br>
 &nbsp;Section 11.9 TargetPortalGroupTag), the T bit set to 1, the CSG set <br>
 &nbsp;to SecurityNegotiation, and NSG set to LoginOperationalNegotiation.<br>
<br>
My question is, what should the Target do if the Initiator issues<br>
the Login with the T bit set to 0 and the Target does want to<br>
negotiate iSCSI security (AuthMethod).<br>
<br>
1. Keep replying with an empty login with T=0 until the<br>
 &nbsp; Initiator sends T=1.<br>
2. Reply immediately with T=0 and AuthMethod.<br>
3. Decide this is a protocol error and close the connection.<br>
4. Do something else?<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Steve Senum<br>
</font>
<br>
<br>
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From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Fri Aug 23 09:59:21 2002
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From: Eddy Quicksall <eddy_quicksall@ivivity.com>
To: Julian Satran <Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com>, ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: iSCSI-Eddy Quicksall's diagrams available
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 09:23:44 -0400
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They are not copyrighted and anyone that has comments as to correctness, I
would appreciate the comments.
 
Eddy

-----Original Message-----
From: Julian Satran [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 7:46 AM
To: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: iSCSI-Eddy Quicksall's diagrams available



Dear all, 

Eddy Quicksall has gracefully agreed to place some iSCSI diagrams in pdf
format 
on my site. The diagrams help explain some iSCSI notions. 

I do not know however what their copyright status is - so unless we get
explicit permission from 
please use them only for your own education. 

Thanks Eddy, 
Julo


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<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2716.2200" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=298172213-23082002><FONT face=Arial size=2>They are not 
copyrighted and anyone that has comments as to correctness, I would appreciate 
the comments.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=298172213-23082002><FONT face=Arial 
size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=298172213-23082002><FONT face=Arial 
size=2>Eddy</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
  <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma 
  size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Julian Satran 
  [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, August 20, 2002 
  7:46 AM<BR><B>To:</B> ips@ece.cmu.edu<BR><B>Subject:</B> iSCSI-Eddy 
  Quicksall's diagrams available<BR><BR></FONT></DIV><BR><FONT face=sans-serif 
  size=2>Dear all,</FONT> <BR><BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>Eddy Quicksall 
  has gracefully agreed to place some iSCSI diagrams in pdf format</FONT> 
  <BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>on my site. The diagrams help explain some 
  iSCSI notions.</FONT> <BR><BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>I do not know 
  however what their copyright status is - so unless we get explicit permission 
  from</FONT> <BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>please use them only for your own 
  education.</FONT> <BR><BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>Thanks Eddy,</FONT> 
  <BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>Julo</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Fri Aug 23 16:50:39 2002
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Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 13:09:45 -0700
From: Carlos Rimola <crimola@silverbacksystems.com>
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Subject: A couple of syntax errors in working draft
To: ips@ece.cmu.edu, owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
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<html>
Hello list,&nbsp; <br><br>
Here are a couple of syntax errors discovered in
working-draft-16:<br><br>
(1)<br>
<font face="Courier, Courier">2.2.4.3 Tags and integrity checks<br><br>
</font>(2nd paragraph, top of page 37):<br><br>
<font face="Courier, Courier">As the Initiator Task Tag is used to
identify a task during its execution<br>
the iSCSI initiator and target MUST verify that all other<br>
fields used in task related PDUs have values are consistent with 
the<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
^^^^^<br>
</font>I believe the third line should have a &quot;that&quot; to read
&quot;have values that are consistent...&quot;<br><br>
<br>
(2)<br>
<font face="Courier, Courier">8.3 iSCSI timeouts<br><br>
<br>
(3rd paragraph on page 124):<br><br>
The relation between iSCSI timeouts and SCSI timeouts should also 
be<br>
considered. SCSI timeouts should be longer than iSCSI timeouts plus<br>
the time required for iSCSI recovery whenever iSCSI recovery is<br>
planned. Alternatively an implementer may choose to interlock iSCSI<br>
timeouts and recovery with SCSI timeouts so that SCSI will recovery<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
^^^^<br>
will become active only where iSCSI is not planned to or failed to<br>
recover.<br><br>
<br>
The &quot;will&quot; between SCSI and recovery should be
removed.<br><br>
<br>
Carlos Rimola<br>
Silverback Systems<br><br>
<br>
</font>At 11:00 PM 8/22/2002 +0300, Julian Satran wrote:<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite><font size=2>thanks - Julo</font>
<br><br>
<br>
<font size=1><b>&quot;Anshul Chadda&quot; &lt;achadda@trebia.com&gt;</b></font> <br>
<font size=1>Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu</font> <br><br>
<font size=1>08/22/2002 05:57 PM</font> <br>
<font size=1>Please respond to &quot;Anshul Chadda&quot;</font> <br>
<font size=1>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </font><br>
<font size=1>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; To:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;ips@ece.cmu.edu&gt;</font> <br>
<font size=1>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; cc:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </font> <br>
<font size=1>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Subject:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; typo in Appendix D SendTargets Operation</font> <br><br>
<font size=1>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </font> <br><br>
<font size=2>Hi all:</font> <br><br>
<font size=2>In Appendix D, page 254, in the following paragraph there is an extra &quot;not&quot; after MUST NOT. I think it is a typo.</font> <br><br>
<font face="Courier, Courier">&quot;A SendTargets response MUST NOT <u>not </u>contain target names if there are no targets for the requesting initiator to access.&quot;</font> <br><br>
<font size=2>Thanks,</font> <br>
<font face="Times New Roman, Times">&nbsp;</font> <br>
<font size=2>Anshul Chadda</font> <br>
<font size=2>Trebia Networks<br>
33 Nagog Park<br>
Acton, MA 01720<br>
Work:978-264-7654<br>
Cell:603-591-1375</font> <br>
</blockquote><br>
</html>



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From: Brian Forbes <bforbes@Brocade.COM>
To: "'Julian Satran'" <Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com>, ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: IPS-ALL: IPS WG Last Call on the iSCSI draft -- ends Sunday, 
	Augu	st 25th
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Hi, Julian, attached is a list of issues; all but 2 of them are editorial.
I'll post the technical issues in a separate e-mail

Regards,

Brian Forbes
Brocade Communications 

-----Original Message-----
From: Julian Satran [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]
Sent: Monday, August 12, 2002 8:05 AM
To: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: IPS-ALL: IPS WG Last Call on the iSCSI draft -- ends Sunday, Augu
st 25th



Dear All, 

As for the first WG Last Call you will find at: 

http://www.haifa.il.ibm.com/satran/ips 

A list of issues and their resolution and the "running version 16" in pdf
and text. 

Julo 
----- Forwarded by Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM on 08/12/2002 08:49 AM ----- 

	Elizabeth Rodriguez <erodrigu@Brocade.COM> 
Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu 


08/12/2002 12:01 AM 


        
        To:        "'ips@ece.cmu.edu'" <ips@ece.cmu.edu> 
        cc:         
        Subject:        IPS-ALL: IPS WG Last Call on the iSCSI draft -- ends
Sunday, Augu        st 25th 

       


All,

We would like to announce IPS WG last call on the iSCSI draft.
This is the second WG last call, and all comments from the first WG last
call period should be addressed by this draft.
(Note:  Addressed means that all comments were considered, not necessarily
accepted.)

The last call period is for two weeks, ending at 5pm EST on Sunday, August
25th.
Editorial comments may be directly sent to Julian Satran
(Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com), with copy to myself (erodrigu@brocade.com),
David Black (black_david@emc.com) and John Hufferd (hufferd@us.ibm.com).
Technical comments should be sent to the IPS mailing list for discussion.

There are two versions of the document available:
Text:  http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ips-iscsi-15.txt 
PDF:  http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ips-iscsi-15.pdf

The two documents should be identical, but the official version is the text
version.

Thanks,

Elizabeth Rodriguez & David Black,
IPS co-chairs







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<DIV>
<P><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=271503200-24082002>Hi, 
Julian, attached is a list of issues; all but 2 of them are editorial.&nbsp; 
I'll post the technical issues in a separate e-mail</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN 
class=271503200-24082002>Regards,</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=2>Brian Forbes<BR>Brocade Communications </FONT></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
  <DIV align=left class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr><FONT face=Tahoma 
  size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Julian Satran 
  [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, August 12, 2002 8:05 
  AM<BR><B>To:</B> ips@ece.cmu.edu<BR><B>Subject:</B> IPS-ALL: IPS WG Last Call 
  on the iSCSI draft -- ends Sunday, Augu st 25th<BR><BR></DIV></FONT><BR><FONT 
  face=sans-serif size=2>Dear All,</FONT> <BR><BR><FONT face=sans-serif 
  size=2>As for the first WG Last Call you will find at:</FONT> <BR><BR><FONT 
  face=sans-serif size=2>http://www.haifa.il.ibm.com/satran/ips</FONT> 
  <BR><BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>A list of issues and their resolution and 
  the "running version 16" in pdf and text.</FONT> <BR><BR><FONT face=sans-serif 
  size=2>Julo</FONT> <BR><FONT color=#800080 face=sans-serif size=1>----- 
  Forwarded by Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM on 08/12/2002 08:49 AM -----</FONT> <BR>
  <TABLE width="100%">
    <TBODY>
    <TR vAlign=top>
      <TD>
      <TD><FONT face=sans-serif size=1><B>Elizabeth Rodriguez 
        &lt;erodrigu@Brocade.COM&gt;</B></FONT> <BR><FONT face=sans-serif 
        size=1>Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu</FONT> 
        <P><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>08/12/2002 12:01 AM</FONT> <BR></P>
      <TD><FONT face=Arial size=1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </FONT><BR><FONT 
        face=sans-serif size=1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; To: &nbsp; &nbsp; 
        &nbsp; &nbsp;"'ips@ece.cmu.edu'" &lt;ips@ece.cmu.edu&gt;</FONT> 
        <BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; cc: &nbsp; 
        &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</FONT> <BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>&nbsp; 
        &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;IPS-ALL: IPS WG 
        Last Call on the iSCSI draft -- ends Sunday, Augu &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 
        &nbsp;st 25th</FONT> <BR><BR><FONT face=Arial size=1>&nbsp; &nbsp; 
        &nbsp; &nbsp;</FONT></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR><BR><FONT face="Courier New" 
  size=2>All,<BR><BR>We would like to announce IPS WG last call on the iSCSI 
  draft.<BR>This is the second WG last call, and all comments from the first WG 
  last<BR>call period should be addressed by this draft.<BR>(Note: 
  &nbsp;Addressed means that all comments were considered, not 
  necessarily<BR>accepted.)<BR><BR>The last call period is for two weeks, ending 
  at 5pm EST on Sunday, August<BR>25th.<BR>Editorial comments may be directly 
  sent to Julian Satran<BR>(Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com), with copy to myself 
  (erodrigu@brocade.com),<BR>David Black (black_david@emc.com) and John Hufferd 
  (hufferd@us.ibm.com).<BR>Technical comments should be sent to the IPS mailing 
  list for discussion.<BR><BR>There are two versions of the document 
  available:<BR>Text: 
  &nbsp;http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ips-iscsi-15.txt <BR>PDF: 
  &nbsp;http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ips-iscsi-15.pdf<BR><BR>The 
  two documents should be identical, but the official version is the 
  text<BR>version.<BR><BR>Thanks,<BR><BR>Elizabeth Rodriguez &amp; David 
  Black,<BR>IPS co-chairs<BR><BR><BR></FONT><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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------_=_NextPart_000_01C24B06.50EB9AA0--


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Fri Aug 23 21:11:36 2002
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From: Brian Forbes <bforbes@Brocade.COM>
To: "'Julian Satran'" <Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com>, ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: IPS WG Last Call: Structural Improvements
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 17:56:25 -0700
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First, let me say that the document continues to improve, and I think the
technical issues are winding down.  Julian deserves our appreciation for
having shown so much patience and attention to detail.

In the past I've suggested in private discussions that the document has
significant readability and/or structural challenges.  One of the esteemed
WG co-chairs has challenged me to be more specific.  

To be more specific & constructive, and to see whether there is support from
others for these suggestions, here goes:

- The topic of login needs an overview section that introduces concepts such
as session phases, connection phases, session types, declarations vs.
negotiations, and login stages.  Much of the terminology is introduced on
the fly.

-  There should be many more cross-references in a document this size.

- For readability, any comma-separated list of more than 2 or 3 items should
be expressed as a list of bullets instead.  Examples abound in the state
diagrams.

-  There are many cases where an English phrase is used as a euphemism for
well-defined iSCSI term.  One example is the use of a phrase like 'the
maximum length of unsolicited data negotiated during login' instead of
'FirstBurstLength'.  Such euphemisms might be justified early in an
overview, before the iSCSI term has been introduced, but anywhere else it
leaves the reader wondering.  At a minimum, euphemisms should be
supplemented by appending the iSCSI term in parentheses, and in many cases a
forward section reference is also in order.  It also suggests that more
iSCSI terms should be introduced (but not necessarily defined in detail)
earlier in the text; e.g. frequently-mentioned key names.

- There seem to be cases where new terminology/notation would be very
useful.  There are many phrases of the form 'an X having the Y bit set to
1'; when multiples of these appear in the same sentence-and they do- parsing
becomes difficult.  One could define a flavor of X that implies having the Y
bit set; e.g. one could define a 'final Data-out PDU' as a PDU having the F
bit set.

- Several sections are quite long and contain multiple topics.  Ideally, any
section longer than a page or two should be broken up, especially if there
is no other relief such as tables, bullets, or diagrams.  (Julian has
recently done this in 2.4)  

IMHO the single biggest improvement would be a tutorial introduction to
Section 4 that starts with the most basic concepts and terminology.

Brian Forbes
Brocade Communications 
-----Original Message-----
From: Julian Satran [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]
Sent: Monday, August 12, 2002 8:05 AM
To: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: IPS-ALL: IPS WG Last Call on the iSCSI draft -- ends Sunday, Augu
st 25th



Dear All, 

As for the first WG Last Call you will find at: 

http://www.haifa.il.ibm.com/satran/ips 

A list of issues and their resolution and the "running version 16" in pdf
and text. 

Julo 
----- Forwarded by Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM on 08/12/2002 08:49 AM ----- 
Elizabeth Rodriguez <erodrigu@Brocade.COM> 
Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu 
08/12/2002 12:01 AM 
        
        To:        "'ips@ece.cmu.edu'" <ips@ece.cmu.edu> 
        cc:         
        Subject:        IPS-ALL: IPS WG Last Call on the iSCSI draft -- ends
Sunday, Augu        st 25th 

       


All,

We would like to announce IPS WG last call on the iSCSI draft.
This is the second WG last call, and all comments from the first WG last
call period should be addressed by this draft.
(Note:  Addressed means that all comments were considered, not necessarily
accepted.)

The last call period is for two weeks, ending at 5pm EST on Sunday, August
25th.
Editorial comments may be directly sent to Julian Satran
(Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com), with copy to myself (erodrigu@brocade.com),
David Black (black_david@emc.com) and John Hufferd (hufferd@us.ibm.com).
Technical comments should be sent to the IPS mailing list for discussion.

There are two versions of the document available:
Text:  http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ips-iscsi-15.txt 
PDF:  http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ips-iscsi-15.pdf

The two documents should be identical, but the official version is the text
version.

Thanks,

Elizabeth Rodriguez & David Black,
IPS co-chairs


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Fri Aug 23 21:12:11 2002
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From: Brian Forbes <bforbes@Brocade.COM>
To: "'Julian Satran'" <Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com>, ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE:iSCSIPS WG Last Call: Technical Issues
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 18:05:30 -0700
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The technical issues seems to be converging nicely.  A couple I would like
to see fixed:

1) Section 4.3.1, last paragraph on page 73:  the use of MUST in the final
sentence is untestable and should be lower case

2) Section 9.16.5, 2nd paragraph on page 195:  the sentence says "has to",
which should be a "MUST"

3) In the previous last call, I requested that the effective value of Buffer
Offset in the case of immediate data be made explicit (even thought it is
obvious); I had thought this had been done, but couldn't locate the fix in
version 16; all I need is for someone to point it out to me

Brian Forbes
Brocade Communications


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Fri Aug 23 23:58:39 2002
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To: Brian Forbes <bforbes@Brocade.COM>
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: RE: IPS-ALL: IPS WG Last Call on the iSCSI draft -- ends Sunday, 	Augu	st
 25th
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From: "Julian Satran" <Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com>
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Thanks - Julo




Brian Forbes <bforbes@brocade.com>
08/24/2002 03:36 AM

 
        To:     Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL, ips@ece.cmu.edu
        cc: 
        Subject:        RE: IPS-ALL: IPS WG Last Call on the iSCSI draft -- ends Sunday, Augu   st 
25th

 




Hi,  Julian, attached is a list of issues; all but 2 of them are 
editorial.   I'll post the technical issues in a separate e-mail

Regards,

Brian Forbes
Brocade Communications 
-----Original Message-----
From: Julian Satran  [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]
Sent: Monday, August 12, 2002 8:05  AM
To: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: IPS-ALL: IPS WG Last Call  on the iSCSI draft -- ends Sunday, Augu st 
25th


Dear All, 

As for the first WG Last Call you will find at: 

http://www.haifa.il.ibm.com/satran/ips 

A list of issues and their resolution and  the "running version 16" in pdf 
and text. 

Julo 
-----  Forwarded by Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM on 08/12/2002 08:49 AM ----- 


Elizabeth Rodriguez  <erodrigu@Brocade.COM> 
Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu 

08/12/2002 12:01 AM 

        
        To:         "'ips@ece.cmu.edu'" <ips@ece.cmu.edu> 
        cc:          
         Subject:        IPS-ALL: IPS WG  Last Call on the iSCSI draft -- 
ends Sunday, Augu         st 25th 

        

All,

We would like to announce IPS WG last call on the iSCSI  draft.
This is the second WG last call, and all comments from the first WG  last
call period should be addressed by this draft.
(Note:   Addressed means that all comments were considered, not 
necessarily
accepted.)

The last call period is for two weeks, ending  at 5pm EST on Sunday, 
August
25th.
Editorial comments may be directly  sent to Julian Satran
(Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com), with copy to myself  (erodrigu@brocade.com),
David Black (black_david@emc.com) and John Hufferd  (hufferd@us.ibm.com).
Technical comments should be sent to the IPS mailing  list for discussion.

There are two versions of the document  available:
Text:   http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ips-iscsi-15.txt 
PDF:   http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ips-iscsi-15.pdf

The  two documents should be identical, but the official version is the 
text
version.

Thanks,

Elizabeth Rodriguez & David  Black,
IPS co-chairs







#### BRCD_iSCSI_16_Comments.pdf has been removed from this note on August 
24 2002 by Julian Satran


--=_alternative 00124B73C2256C1F_=
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"


<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Thanks - Julo</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>Brian Forbes &lt;bforbes@brocade.com&gt;</b></font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">08/24/2002 03:36 AM</font>
<br>
<td><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL, ips@ece.cmu.edu</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;RE: IPS-ALL: IPS WG Last Call on the iSCSI draft -- ends Sunday, &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Augu &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;st 25th</font>
<br>
<br><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font></table>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br><font size=2>Hi, &nbsp;Julian, attached is a list of issues; all but 2 of them are editorial.&nbsp; &nbsp;I'll post the technical issues in a separate e-mail</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2>Regards,</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2>Brian Forbes</font>
<br><font size=2>Brocade Communications </font>
<br><font size=2>-----Original Message-----</font>
<br><font size=2><b>From:</b> Julian Satran &nbsp;[mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]</font>
<br><font size=2><b>Sent:</b> Monday, August 12, 2002 8:05 &nbsp;AM</font>
<br><font size=2><b>To:</b> ips@ece.cmu.edu</font>
<br><font size=2><b>Subject:</b> IPS-ALL: IPS WG Last Call &nbsp;on the iSCSI draft -- ends Sunday, Augu st 25th</font>
<br>
<br>
<br><font size=2>Dear All,</font><font size=3> </font>
<br>
<br><font size=2>As for the first WG Last Call you will find at:</font><font size=3> </font>
<br>
<br><font size=2>http://www.haifa.il.ibm.com/satran/ips</font><font size=3> &nbsp;</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2>A list of issues and their resolution and &nbsp;the &quot;running version 16&quot; in pdf and text.</font><font size=3> </font>
<br>
<br><font size=2>Julo</font><font size=3> </font>
<br><font size=1>----- &nbsp;Forwarded by Julian Satran/Haifa/IBM on 08/12/2002 08:49 AM -----</font><font size=3> </font>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td width=0%>
<td width=32%><font size=1><b>Elizabeth Rodriguez &nbsp;&lt;erodrigu@Brocade.COM&gt;</b></font><font size=3> </font>
<br><font size=1>Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu</font><font size=3> &nbsp;</font>
<br>
<br><font size=1>08/12/2002 12:01 AM</font><font size=3> </font>
<br>
<td width=67%><font size=1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </font>
<br><font size=1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&quot;'ips@ece.cmu.edu'&quot; &lt;ips@ece.cmu.edu&gt;</font><font size=3> &nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; cc: &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font><font size=3> </font>
<br><font size=1>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;IPS-ALL: IPS WG &nbsp;Last Call on the iSCSI draft -- ends Sunday, Augu &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;st 25th</font><font size=3> </font>
<br>
<br><font size=1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;</font></table>
<br>
<br><font size=2>All,</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2>We would like to announce IPS WG last call on the iSCSI &nbsp;draft.</font>
<br><font size=2>This is the second WG last call, and all comments from the first WG &nbsp;last</font>
<br><font size=2>call period should be addressed by this draft.</font>
<br><font size=2>(Note: &nbsp;&nbsp;Addressed means that all comments were considered, not &nbsp;necessarily</font>
<br><font size=2>accepted.)</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2>The last call period is for two weeks, ending &nbsp;at 5pm EST on Sunday, August</font>
<br><font size=2>25th.</font>
<br><font size=2>Editorial comments may be directly &nbsp;sent to Julian Satran</font>
<br><font size=2>(Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com), with copy to myself &nbsp;(erodrigu@brocade.com),</font>
<br><font size=2>David Black (black_david@emc.com) and John Hufferd &nbsp;(hufferd@us.ibm.com).</font>
<br><font size=2>Technical comments should be sent to the IPS mailing &nbsp;list for discussion.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2>There are two versions of the document &nbsp;available:</font>
<br><font size=2>Text: &nbsp;&nbsp;http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ips-iscsi-15.txt </font>
<br><font size=2>PDF: &nbsp;&nbsp;http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ips-iscsi-15.pdf</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2>The &nbsp;two documents should be identical, but the official version is the &nbsp;text</font>
<br><font size=2>version.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2>Thanks,</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2>Elizabeth Rodriguez &amp; David &nbsp;Black,</font>
<br><font size=2>IPS co-chairs</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">#### BRCD_iSCSI_16_Comments.pdf has been removed from this note on August 24 2002 by Julian Satran</font>
<br>
<br>
--=_alternative 00124B73C2256C1F_=--


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Sat Aug 24 11:04:35 2002
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Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 09:49:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Robert D. Russell" <rdr@io.iol.unh.edu>
To: shesha bhushan <bhushan_vadulas@hotmail.com>
cc: cdeng@iol.unh.edu, <qtao@iol.unh.edu>, <ips@ece.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: SendTarget Options in UNH v-.11 code.
In-Reply-To: <F168eWKW7T9dvH03CoH0000fc1d@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.43.0208240945100.26055-100000@io.iol.unh.edu>
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Hi Shesha:

There is no problem to be fixed here -- everything is performing exactly
as it is supposed to!

According to the standard, the SendTargets key can ONLY be sent during
Full Feature Phase.  Therefore, when the initiator sends it during
login (because of the iscsi_manage command you used), the target
correctly gives an error and terminates the login.  The initiator,
upon receiving the Login error response, also terminates the login
and reports the error at the shell level.
Nothing to fix -- what were you thinking should happen?

Best,
Bob Russell


On Sat, 24 Aug 2002, shesha bhushan wrote:

> Hi,
>   I am using UNH iSCSI code on Redhat Linux boxes. How to specify the
> "SendTarget" options at the initiator. If I specify as manage parameters
> (./iscsi_manage InitiatorName=abc TargetName=xyz SendTargets=all host=0)
> then at the target side it gives the following error ....
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Aug 23 20:32:04 kernel: 1287: Got key: SendTargets=all
> Aug 23 20:32:04 kernel: ../common/text_param.h:scan_input_and_process:2411:
> ***ERROR*** SendTargets can only be used in full feature phase
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Now at the initiator side it gives the followimg error at shell
>
> /proc/scsi/iscsi_initiator/0: Software caused connection abort
>
>
> and the error that is logged in /var/log/message is
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Aug 23 20:50:44 kernel: ../common/text_param.h:check_login_response:1848:
> ***ERROR*** Login Response with StatusClass 0x02, StatusDetail 0x00
>
> Aug 23 20:50:44 kernel: 3702: parameter negotiation failed
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> How can I fix this problem. Please advice.
>
> Thanks
> Shesha
>
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
> http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
>


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Sat Aug 24 11:06:23 2002
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From: "shesha bhushan" <bhushan_vadulas@hotmail.com>
To: cdeng@iol.unh.edu, qtao@iol.unh.edu, rdr@iol.unh.edu
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: SendTarget Options in UNH v-.11 code.
Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 03:55:20 +0000
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Sender: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
Precedence: bulk

Hi,
  I am using UNH iSCSI code on Redhat Linux boxes. How to specify the 
"SendTarget" options at the initiator. If I specify as manage parameters 
(./iscsi_manage InitiatorName=abc TargetName=xyz SendTargets=all host=0) 
then at the target side it gives the following error ....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Aug 23 20:32:04 kernel: 1287: Got key: SendTargets=all
Aug 23 20:32:04 kernel: ../common/text_param.h:scan_input_and_process:2411: 
***ERROR*** SendTargets can only be used in full feature phase
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now at the initiator side it gives the followimg error at shell

/proc/scsi/iscsi_initiator/0: Software caused connection abort


and the error that is logged in /var/log/message is

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Aug 23 20:50:44 kernel: ../common/text_param.h:check_login_response:1848: 
***ERROR*** Login Response with StatusClass 0x02, StatusDetail 0x00

Aug 23 20:50:44 kernel: 3702: parameter negotiation failed
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

How can I fix this problem. Please advice.

Thanks
Shesha





_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Sat Aug 24 18:01:43 2002
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From: "shesha bhushan" <bhushan_vadulas@hotmail.com>
To: rdr@io.iol.unh.edu
Cc: cdeng@iol.unh.edu, qtao@iol.unh.edu, ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: SendTarget Options in UNH v-.11 code.
Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 16:34:34 +0000
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Hi Robert,
  I agree with what you say. So what should I do to get the information 
about the targets. What command should I have to issue at the shell ?

Thanking You
Shesha


>From: "Robert D. Russell" <rdr@io.iol.unh.edu>
>To: shesha bhushan <bhushan_vadulas@hotmail.com>
>CC: cdeng@iol.unh.edu, <qtao@iol.unh.edu>, <ips@ece.cmu.edu>
>Subject: Re: SendTarget Options in UNH v-.11 code.
>Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 09:49:45 -0400 (EDT)
>
>Hi Shesha:
>
>There is no problem to be fixed here -- everything is performing exactly
>as it is supposed to!
>
>According to the standard, the SendTargets key can ONLY be sent during
>Full Feature Phase.  Therefore, when the initiator sends it during
>login (because of the iscsi_manage command you used), the target
>correctly gives an error and terminates the login.  The initiator,
>upon receiving the Login error response, also terminates the login
>and reports the error at the shell level.
>Nothing to fix -- what were you thinking should happen?
>
>Best,
>Bob Russell
>
>
>On Sat, 24 Aug 2002, shesha bhushan wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >   I am using UNH iSCSI code on Redhat Linux boxes. How to specify the
> > "SendTarget" options at the initiator. If I specify as manage parameters
> > (./iscsi_manage InitiatorName=abc TargetName=xyz SendTargets=all host=0)
> > then at the target side it gives the following error ....
> >
> > 
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Aug 23 20:32:04 kernel: 1287: Got key: SendTargets=all
> > Aug 23 20:32:04 kernel: 
>../common/text_param.h:scan_input_and_process:2411:
> > ***ERROR*** SendTargets can only be used in full feature phase
> > 
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Now at the initiator side it gives the followimg error at shell
> >
> > /proc/scsi/iscsi_initiator/0: Software caused connection abort
> >
> >
> > and the error that is logged in /var/log/message is
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Aug 23 20:50:44 kernel: 
>../common/text_param.h:check_login_response:1848:
> > ***ERROR*** Login Response with StatusClass 0x02, StatusDetail 0x00
> >
> > Aug 23 20:50:44 kernel: 3702: parameter negotiation failed
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > How can I fix this problem. Please advice.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Shesha
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
> > http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
> >
>




_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx


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Subject: Error in running UNH iSCSI code
To: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Cc: cdeng@iol.unh.edu, qtao@iol.unh.edu, rdr@iol.unh.edu
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From: udayan_singh@lko.tcs.co.in
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 17:43:41 +0530
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hi,
I am using UNH  iSCSI code on Redhat Linux on virtual machine. Here after
installing the initiator module and target module we got the following
errors on
the initiator end :

Gotkey: SessionType=Normal
../common/text_param.h : check_correctness:1368: ***ERROR***
key"SessionType" cannot be sent to initiator.


and at target end:
iscsi_target.c :  error: rx_data: rx_loop_0 total_rx_0
iscsi_rx_thread : trouble receiving data.

Thanks
Udayan




From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Mon Aug 26 12:11:09 2002
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From: Black_David@emc.com
To: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: iSCSI WG Last Call COMPLETE
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The ips WG Last Call period on the iSCSI draft,
draft-ietf-ips-iscsi-15.txt, closed yesterday.  In
the judgment of the WG co-chairs, all of the technical
issues that have been raised are relatively minor and
can be addressed without a further WG Last Call.  At
least one further version of the draft is expected to
encompass these as well as a number of editorial
changes.

So, the iSCSI draft has *passed* WG Last Call - it's
been a lot of work to get here.  May thanks to all
who have contributed, and for the perseverance,
dedication and patience of those involved, especially
Julian who has put in untold hours of work to get the
draft to this stage.  Congratulations.

Thanks,
--David and Elizabeth

---------------------------------------------------
David L. Black, Senior Technologist
EMC Corporation, 42 South St., Hopkinton, MA  01748
+1 (508) 249-6449            FAX: +1 (508) 497-8018
black_david@emc.com       Mobile: +1 (978) 394-7754
---------------------------------------------------


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Mon Aug 26 12:13:57 2002
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Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 08:43:21 -0700
From: Ullas Ponnadi <uponnadi@cup.hp.com>
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To: shesha bhushan <bhushan_vadulas@hotmail.com>
Cc: rdr@io.iol.unh.edu, cdeng@iol.unh.edu, qtao@iol.unh.edu, ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: SendTarget Options in UNH v-.11 code.
References: <F55vyNcIyh5ipJJMXEd0001058c@hotmail.com>
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Hi Shesha,

   I am assuming that you are using the latest version ( ref13_06 ) which has
support for ver 11 also. By default, the target will send response to
SendTargets
during the discovery phase. At the initiator end, you will have to look at the
response and construct information about targets.

   Hope that helps.

Regards,

Ullas




shesha bhushan wrote:

> Hi Robert,
>   I agree with what you say. So what should I do to get the information
> about the targets. What command should I have to issue at the shell ?
>
> Thanking You
> Shesha
>
> >From: "Robert D. Russell" <rdr@io.iol.unh.edu>
> >To: shesha bhushan <bhushan_vadulas@hotmail.com>
> >CC: cdeng@iol.unh.edu, <qtao@iol.unh.edu>, <ips@ece.cmu.edu>
> >Subject: Re: SendTarget Options in UNH v-.11 code.
> >Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 09:49:45 -0400 (EDT)
> >
> >Hi Shesha:
> >
> >There is no problem to be fixed here -- everything is performing exactly
> >as it is supposed to!
> >
> >According to the standard, the SendTargets key can ONLY be sent during
> >Full Feature Phase.  Therefore, when the initiator sends it during
> >login (because of the iscsi_manage command you used), the target
> >correctly gives an error and terminates the login.  The initiator,
> >upon receiving the Login error response, also terminates the login
> >and reports the error at the shell level.
> >Nothing to fix -- what were you thinking should happen?
> >
> >Best,
> >Bob Russell
> >
> >
> >On Sat, 24 Aug 2002, shesha bhushan wrote:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > >   I am using UNH iSCSI code on Redhat Linux boxes. How to specify the
> > > "SendTarget" options at the initiator. If I specify as manage parameters
> > > (./iscsi_manage InitiatorName=abc TargetName=xyz SendTargets=all host=0)
> > > then at the target side it gives the following error ....
> > >
> > >
> >--------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > Aug 23 20:32:04 kernel: 1287: Got key: SendTargets=all
> > > Aug 23 20:32:04 kernel:
> >../common/text_param.h:scan_input_and_process:2411:
> > > ***ERROR*** SendTargets can only be used in full feature phase
> > >
> >--------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Now at the initiator side it gives the followimg error at shell
> > >
> > > /proc/scsi/iscsi_initiator/0: Software caused connection abort
> > >
> > >
> > > and the error that is logged in /var/log/message is
> > >
> > > -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Aug 23 20:50:44 kernel:
> >../common/text_param.h:check_login_response:1848:
> > > ***ERROR*** Login Response with StatusClass 0x02, StatusDetail 0x00
> > >
> > > Aug 23 20:50:44 kernel: 3702: parameter negotiation failed
> > > -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > How can I fix this problem. Please advice.
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > > Shesha
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
> > > http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
> > >
> >
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
> http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx



From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Mon Aug 26 13:13:11 2002
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From: Elizabeth Rodriguez <erodrigu@Brocade.COM>
To: "'ips@ece.cmu.edu'" <ips@ece.cmu.edu>
Subject: IPS All: FC Encaps and iFCP sent on to ADs for further processing
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 09:39:31 -0700
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Hi all,

A note to let you know that the FC Frame Encapsulation and iFCP documents
were sent on to the ADs on Friday for further processing.

I would like to review what happens now...

The ADs will review the documents, determine if they feel these documents
are ready to go forward or not. 
Things they look for when reviewing the draft are:

Technical quality, interoperability, completeness, security, nits,
readability and usability/usefulness.

They may return the documents for further processing by the authors/working
group if they feel it is not ready to be forwarded.

Once they have completed this review, and feel that the document is ready,
it will be submitted for IETF Last Call, which will be a minimum of a two
week period.

We will keep this list updated on the progress of the drafts.

Thanks

Elizabeth Rodriguez
IPS co-chair

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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Hi all,</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">A note to let you know that the FC =
Frame Encapsulation and iFCP documents were sent on to the ADs on =
Friday for further processing.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">I would like to review what happens =
now...</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">The ADs will review the documents, =
determine if they feel these documents are ready to go forward or not. =
</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Things they look for when reviewing =
the draft are:</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Technical quality, interoperability, =
completeness, security, nits, readability and =
usability/usefulness.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">They may return the documents for =
further processing by the authors/working group if they feel it is not =
ready to be forwarded.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Once they have completed this review, =
and feel that the document is ready, it will be submitted for IETF Last =
Call, which will be a minimum of a two week period.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">We will keep this list updated on the =
progress of the drafts.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Thanks</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Elizabeth Rodriguez</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">IPS co-chair</FONT>
</P>

</BODY>
</HTML>
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From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Mon Aug 26 14:31:51 2002
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Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 11:53:34 -0600
From: "Brian F. G. Bidulock" <bidulock@openss7.org>
To: Black_David@emc.com
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: iSCSI WG Last Call COMPLETE
Message-ID: <20020826115334.A12828@openss7.org>
Reply-To: bidulock@openss7.org
References: <277DD60FB639D511AC0400B0D068B71E0564C20C@CORPMX14>
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David,

Congratulations.

On another note, are there any plans or drafts
for supporting iSCSI (or IPS in general) over SCTP?

--brian

On Mon, 26 Aug 2002, Black_David@emc.com wrote:

> The ips WG Last Call period on the iSCSI draft,
> draft-ietf-ips-iscsi-15.txt, closed yesterday.  In
> the judgment of the WG co-chairs, all of the technical
> issues that have been raised are relatively minor and
> can be addressed without a further WG Last Call.  At
> least one further version of the draft is expected to
> encompass these as well as a number of editorial
> changes.
> 
> So, the iSCSI draft has *passed* WG Last Call - it's
> been a lot of work to get here.  May thanks to all
> who have contributed, and for the perseverance,
> dedication and patience of those involved, especially
> Julian who has put in untold hours of work to get the
> draft to this stage.  Congratulations.
> 
> Thanks,
> --David and Elizabeth
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------
> David L. Black, Senior Technologist
> EMC Corporation, 42 South St., Hopkinton, MA  01748
> +1 (508) 249-6449            FAX: +1 (508) 497-8018
> black_david@emc.com       Mobile: +1 (978) 394-7754
> ---------------------------------------------------

-- 
Brian F. G. Bidulock    ¦ The reasonable man adapts himself to the ¦
bidulock@openss7.org    ¦ world; the unreasonable one persists in  ¦
http://www.openss7.org/ ¦ trying  to adapt the  world  to himself. ¦
                        ¦ Therefore  all  progress  depends on the ¦
                        ¦ unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw ¦


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Mon Aug 26 18:25:04 2002
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From: Elizabeth Rodriguez <erodrigu@Brocade.COM>
To: "'ips@ece.cmu.edu'" <ips@ece.cmu.edu>
Subject: IPS-ALL:  WG Last Call on "Finding FCIP Entities Using SLPv2"
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 13:43:24 -0700
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All,

We would like to announce IPS WG last call on the draft "Finding FCIP
Entities Using SLPv2".
The last call period is for two weeks, ending at 5pm EST on Tuesday,
September 10.

Editorial comments may be directly sent to Dave Peterson (dap@cisco.com),
with copy to myself (erodrigu@brocade.com), David Black
(black_david@emc.com) and Murali Rajagopal(muralir@cox.net)
Technical comments should be sent to the IPS mailing list for discussion.

Summary:
Draft:  	Finding FCIP Entities Using SLPv2
URL:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ips-fcip-slp-03.txt
Period:	2 weeks, ending at 5pm Tuesday, Sept 10
Author:	Dave Peterson (dap@cisco.com)
TC:		Murali Rajogapal (muralir@cox.net)

Thanks,

Elizabeth Rodriguez & David Black,
IPS co-chairs




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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">All,</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">We would like to announce IPS WG =
last call on the draft &quot;</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Times New =
Roman">Finding FCIP Entities Using SLPv2</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Courier New">&quot;.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">The last call period is for two =
weeks, ending at 5pm EST on Tuesday, September 10.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Editorial comments may be =
directly sent to Dave Peterson (dap@cisco.com),</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">with copy to myself =
(erodrigu@brocade.com), David Black (black_david@emc.com) and Murali =
Rajagopal(muralir@cox.net)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Technical comments should be =
sent to the IPS mailing list for discussion.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Summary:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Draft:&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT> <FONT FACE=3D"Times =
New Roman">Finding FCIP Entities Using SLPv2</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">URL:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <A =
HREF=3D"http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ips-fcip-slp-03.t=
xt" =
TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ips-fci=
p-slp-03.txt</A></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Period: 2 weeks, ending at 5pm =
Tuesday, Sept 10</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Author: Dave Peterson =
(dap@cisco.com)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">TC:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Murali Rajogapal =
(muralir@cox.net)</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Thanks,</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">Elizabeth Rodriguez &amp; David =
Black,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Courier New">IPS co-chairs</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<BR>

</BODY>
</HTML>
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From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Mon Aug 26 18:57:58 2002
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Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 18:18:30 -0400
From: Luben Tuikov <luben@splentec.com>
Organization: Splentec Ltd.
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To: Brian Forbes <bforbes@Brocade.COM>
CC: "'Julian Satran'" <Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com>, ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: IPS WG Last Call: Structural Improvements
References: <B6AB380934B5F0488974238446762E4A848834@hq-ex-5>
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Brian Forbes wrote:
> 
> To be more specific & constructive, and to see whether there is support from
> others for these suggestions, here goes:
>
> - The topic of login needs an overview section that introduces concepts such
> as session phases, connection phases, session types, declarations vs.
> negotiations, and login stages.  Much of the terminology is introduced on
> the fly.
>

Agreed.

While the details are there and explained, presenting the ``big picture''
of the procedure would be invaluable to the uninitiated reader.

Currently a new reader in encumbered with the task of building the ``big
picture'' by just reading about the details (CSG/NSG, etc.).

> -  There are many cases where an English phrase is used as a euphemism for
> well-defined iSCSI term.  One example is the use of a phrase like 'the
> maximum length of unsolicited data negotiated during login' instead of
> 'FirstBurstLength'.  Such euphemisms might be justified early in an
> overview, before the iSCSI term has been introduced, but anywhere else it
> leaves the reader wondering.  At a minimum, euphemisms should be
> supplemented by appending the iSCSI term in parentheses, and in many cases a
> forward section reference is also in order.  It also suggests that more
> iSCSI terms should be introduced (but not necessarily defined in detail)
> earlier in the text; e.g. frequently-mentioned key names.

At this stage we can afford to get rid of euphemisms altogether. I.e.
there'd be no more changes of names at all.

If ``FirstBurstLength'' is intended, then that name should be used,
and if the reader needs to know what it is, they can always look up
its definition elsewhere in the iSCSI document.

This would make the text more robust and more clear (in my opinion).
 
> - There seem to be cases where new terminology/notation would be very
> useful.  There are many phrases of the form 'an X having the Y bit set to
> 1'; when multiples of these appear in the same sentence-and they do- parsing
> becomes difficult.  One could define a flavor of X that implies having the Y
> bit set; e.g. one could define a 'final Data-out PDU' as a PDU having the F
> bit set.

Agreed.

Defining ``final Data-x PDU'' to be equivalent to a PDU whose F bit = 1,
and then defining a sequence to end with a final Data-x PDU,
would clarify text in the sense that instead of saying:
``has to have it's F bit = 1'' one would say
``the PDU sequence'' and that's it.

If one wants to know what is meant, they'd look up ``PDU sequence'',
then ``final Data-x PDU'', etc. Clearly a structurally more sound
document.

-- 
Luben

P.S. Yes, indeed, semantics _do_ make a difference. And we've seen this
fact shown numerous times in the latter 20th century, contrary to
the mid-20th century fad ``It's only semantics''.


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Mon Aug 26 19:58:34 2002
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From: Brian Forbes <bforbes@Brocade.COM>
To: "'Luben Tuikov'" <luben@splentec.com>,
        Brian Forbes
	 <bforbes@Brocade.COM>
Cc: "'Julian Satran'" <Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com>, ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: IPS WG Last Call: Structural Improvements
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To Luben's point, since semantics is all about meaning, people who dismiss
discussions as 'just arguing semantics' can't really mean what they're
saying (maybe they mean 'just arguing syntax'?).  :-)

To be fair to ouor esteemed and harried editor, Julian did incorporate
certain of my comments from the previous Last Call, probably to the limit of
his time & patience.  And I didn't acknowledge the new work done in Section
4, which is a start.

Alas, it seems this discussion will soon be 'overcome by events'. 

Brian Forbes
Brocade Communications 

-----Original Message-----
From: Luben Tuikov [mailto:luben@splentec.com]
Sent: Monday, August 26, 2002 3:19 PM
To: Brian Forbes
Cc: 'Julian Satran'; ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: IPS WG Last Call: Structural Improvements


Brian Forbes wrote:
> 
> To be more specific & constructive, and to see whether there is support
from
> others for these suggestions, here goes:
>
> - The topic of login needs an overview section that introduces concepts
such
> as session phases, connection phases, session types, declarations vs.
> negotiations, and login stages.  Much of the terminology is introduced on
> the fly.
>

Agreed.

While the details are there and explained, presenting the ``big picture''
of the procedure would be invaluable to the uninitiated reader.

Currently a new reader in encumbered with the task of building the ``big
picture'' by just reading about the details (CSG/NSG, etc.).

> -  There are many cases where an English phrase is used as a euphemism for
> well-defined iSCSI term.  One example is the use of a phrase like 'the
> maximum length of unsolicited data negotiated during login' instead of
> 'FirstBurstLength'.  Such euphemisms might be justified early in an
> overview, before the iSCSI term has been introduced, but anywhere else it
> leaves the reader wondering.  At a minimum, euphemisms should be
> supplemented by appending the iSCSI term in parentheses, and in many cases
a
> forward section reference is also in order.  It also suggests that more
> iSCSI terms should be introduced (but not necessarily defined in detail)
> earlier in the text; e.g. frequently-mentioned key names.

At this stage we can afford to get rid of euphemisms altogether. I.e.
there'd be no more changes of names at all.

If ``FirstBurstLength'' is intended, then that name should be used,
and if the reader needs to know what it is, they can always look up
its definition elsewhere in the iSCSI document.

This would make the text more robust and more clear (in my opinion).
 
> - There seem to be cases where new terminology/notation would be very
> useful.  There are many phrases of the form 'an X having the Y bit set to
> 1'; when multiples of these appear in the same sentence-and they do-
parsing
> becomes difficult.  One could define a flavor of X that implies having the
Y
> bit set; e.g. one could define a 'final Data-out PDU' as a PDU having the
F
> bit set.

Agreed.

Defining ``final Data-x PDU'' to be equivalent to a PDU whose F bit = 1,
and then defining a sequence to end with a final Data-x PDU,
would clarify text in the sense that instead of saying:
``has to have it's F bit = 1'' one would say
``the PDU sequence'' and that's it.

If one wants to know what is meant, they'd look up ``PDU sequence'',
then ``final Data-x PDU'', etc. Clearly a structurally more sound
document.

-- 
Luben

P.S. Yes, indeed, semantics _do_ make a difference. And we've seen this
fact shown numerous times in the latter 20th century, contrary to
the mid-20th century fad ``It's only semantics''.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C24D56.FAC4E890
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charset=3DUS-ASCII">
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5.5.2653.12">
<TITLE>RE: IPS WG Last Call: Structural Improvements</TITLE>
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<BODY>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>To Luben's point, since semantics is all about =
meaning, people who dismiss discussions as 'just arguing semantics' =
can't really mean what they're saying (maybe they mean 'just arguing =
syntax'?).&nbsp; :-)</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>To be fair to ouor esteemed and harried editor, =
Julian did incorporate certain of my comments from the previous Last =
Call, probably to the limit of his time &amp; patience.&nbsp; And I =
didn't acknowledge the new work done in Section 4, which is a =
start.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Alas, it seems this discussion will soon be 'overcome =
by events'. </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Brian Forbes</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Brocade Communications </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>-----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>From: Luben Tuikov [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:luben@splentec.com">mailto:luben@splentec.com</A>]</FONT>=

<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Sent: Monday, August 26, 2002 3:19 PM</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>To: Brian Forbes</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Cc: 'Julian Satran'; ips@ece.cmu.edu</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Subject: Re: IPS WG Last Call: Structural =
Improvements</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Brian Forbes wrote:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; To be more specific &amp; constructive, and to =
see whether there is support from</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; others for these suggestions, here goes:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; - The topic of login needs an overview section =
that introduces concepts such</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; as session phases, connection phases, session =
types, declarations vs.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; negotiations, and login stages.&nbsp; Much of =
the terminology is introduced on</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; the fly.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt;</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Agreed.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>While the details are there and explained, presenting =
the ``big picture''</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>of the procedure would be invaluable to the =
uninitiated reader.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Currently a new reader in encumbered with the task of =
building the ``big</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>picture'' by just reading about the details =
(CSG/NSG, etc.).</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; -&nbsp; There are many cases where an English =
phrase is used as a euphemism for</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; well-defined iSCSI term.&nbsp; One example is =
the use of a phrase like 'the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; maximum length of unsolicited data negotiated =
during login' instead of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; 'FirstBurstLength'.&nbsp; Such euphemisms might =
be justified early in an</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; overview, before the iSCSI term has been =
introduced, but anywhere else it</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; leaves the reader wondering.&nbsp; At a =
minimum, euphemisms should be</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; supplemented by appending the iSCSI term in =
parentheses, and in many cases a</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; forward section reference is also in =
order.&nbsp; It also suggests that more</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; iSCSI terms should be introduced (but not =
necessarily defined in detail)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; earlier in the text; e.g. frequently-mentioned =
key names.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>At this stage we can afford to get rid of euphemisms =
altogether. I.e.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>there'd be no more changes of names at all.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>If ``FirstBurstLength'' is intended, then that name =
should be used,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>and if the reader needs to know what it is, they can =
always look up</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>its definition elsewhere in the iSCSI =
document.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>This would make the text more robust and more clear =
(in my opinion).</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&nbsp;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; - There seem to be cases where new =
terminology/notation would be very</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; useful.&nbsp; There are many phrases of the =
form 'an X having the Y bit set to</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; 1'; when multiples of these appear in the same =
sentence-and they do- parsing</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; becomes difficult.&nbsp; One could define a =
flavor of X that implies having the Y</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; bit set; e.g. one could define a 'final =
Data-out PDU' as a PDU having the F</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>&gt; bit set.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Agreed.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Defining ``final Data-x PDU'' to be equivalent to a =
PDU whose F bit =3D 1,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>and then defining a sequence to end with a final =
Data-x PDU,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>would clarify text in the sense that instead of =
saying:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>``has to have it's F bit =3D 1'' one would =
say</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>``the PDU sequence'' and that's it.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>If one wants to know what is meant, they'd look up =
``PDU sequence'',</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>then ``final Data-x PDU'', etc. Clearly a =
structurally more sound</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>document.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>-- </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Luben</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>P.S. Yes, indeed, semantics _do_ make a difference. =
And we've seen this</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>fact shown numerous times in the latter 20th =
century, contrary to</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>the mid-20th century fad ``It's only =
semantics''.</FONT>
</P>

</BODY>
</HTML>
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From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Tue Aug 27 12:02:16 2002
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Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 10:05:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: Chaoyang Deng <cdeng@io.iol.unh.edu>
To: "Asai Thambi S.P - CTD, Chennai." <sp_asai@ctd.hcltech.com>
cc: udayan_singh@lko.tcs.co.in, <ips@ece.cmu.edu>, <qtao@iol.unh.edu>,
        <rdr@iol.unh.edu>
Subject: RE: Error in running UNH iSCSI code
In-Reply-To: <B1DF47D78E82D511832C00B0D021B520BCE504@sakthi.hclt.com>
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Hi,

Please DO NOT use "manage" script on the target side. That is my fault, I
should not put the script in the target directory, which I used for
testing error only. :(

Have fun!

Chaoyang


On Tue, 27 Aug 2002, Asai Thambi S.P - CTD, Chennai. wrote:

> > I am using UNH  iSCSI code on Redhat Linux on virtual
> > machine. Here after
> > installing the initiator module and target module we got the following
> > errors on
> > the initiator end :
> >
> > Gotkey: SessionType=Normal
> > ../common/text_param.h : check_correctness:1368: ***ERROR***
> > key"SessionType" cannot be sent to initiator.
>
> The initiator should start the negotiation of the "SessionType" and
> the target has to check if it supports that type of session and proceed
> acccordingly. The target shouldn't initiate THIS key negotiation.
>
> This is a protocol error (if I'm wrong, correct me).
>
> > and at target end:
> > iscsi_target.c :  error: rx_data: rx_loop_0 total_rx_0
> > iscsi_rx_thread : trouble receiving data.
>
> The initiator on detecting the above ERROR, closes the connection.
> The target is waiting to  receive data from the socket and at that time,
> one end of the socket is closed and hence sock_recvmsg() at the target side
> returned a value <=0 ( I think it is 0).
>
> This protocol error occurs during session login, the connection is closed
> and hence
> the session is not established.
>
> Suppose this error occurs (generally it shouldn't occur) during connection
> login (session is in
> full feature phase),
> what should the initiator do?
> 	* close the connection or
> 	* close the session
>
> Can anybody through some more light on this?
>
> Thanks,
> asai thambi.
>

  +----------------------------------------------------+
  | Chaoyang Deng -- cdeng@iol.unh.edu -- 603.862.1908 |
  | iSCSI Consortium, InterOperability lab (IOL),  UNH |
  | http://www.iol.unh.edu/consortiums/iscsi/          |
  | 204 Forest Park, Durham, NH 03824  -- 603.868.3470 |
  +----------------------------------------------------+


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Tue Aug 27 12:02:18 2002
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Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 10:08:15 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Robert D. Russell" <rdr@io.iol.unh.edu>
To: "Asai Thambi S.P - CTD, Chennai." <sp_asai@ctd.hcltech.com>
cc: udayan_singh@lko.tcs.co.in, <ips@ece.cmu.edu>, <cdeng@iol.unh.edu>,
        <qtao@iol.unh.edu>
Subject: RE: Error in running UNH iSCSI code
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Asai:

> Suppose this error occurs (generally it shouldn't occur) during connection
> login (session is in
> full feature phase),
> what should the initiator do?
> 	* close the connection or
> 	* close the session

Close the connection.

Bob Russell



From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Tue Aug 27 12:02:33 2002
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Message-ID: <B1DF47D78E82D511832C00B0D021B520BCE504@sakthi.hclt.com>
From: "Asai Thambi S.P - CTD, Chennai." <sp_asai@ctd.hcltech.com>
To: udayan_singh@lko.tcs.co.in, ips@ece.cmu.edu
Cc: cdeng@iol.unh.edu, qtao@iol.unh.edu, rdr@iol.unh.edu
Subject: RE: Error in running UNH iSCSI code
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 18:48:25 +0530
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> I am using UNH  iSCSI code on Redhat Linux on virtual 
> machine. Here after
> installing the initiator module and target module we got the following
> errors on
> the initiator end :
> 
> Gotkey: SessionType=Normal
> ../common/text_param.h : check_correctness:1368: ***ERROR***
> key"SessionType" cannot be sent to initiator.

The initiator should start the negotiation of the "SessionType" and 
the target has to check if it supports that type of session and proceed
acccordingly. The target shouldn't initiate THIS key negotiation.

This is a protocol error (if I'm wrong, correct me).

> and at target end:
> iscsi_target.c :  error: rx_data: rx_loop_0 total_rx_0
> iscsi_rx_thread : trouble receiving data.

The initiator on detecting the above ERROR, closes the connection.  
The target is waiting to  receive data from the socket and at that time, 
one end of the socket is closed and hence sock_recvmsg() at the target side 
returned a value <=0 ( I think it is 0).

This protocol error occurs during session login, the connection is closed
and hence
the session is not established.

Suppose this error occurs (generally it shouldn't occur) during connection
login (session is in 
full feature phase), 
what should the initiator do?
	* close the connection or
	* close the session

Can anybody through some more light on this?

Thanks,
asai thambi.


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Tue Aug 27 12:03:00 2002
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Message-ID: <3D6B9C8B.CDCDF925@cisco.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 10:36:43 -0500
From: Mark Bakke <mbakke@cisco.com>
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To: IPS <ips@ece.cmu.edu>
Subject: Virus sent last Thursday - Anyone use RoadRunner?
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Sorry this is a bit off-topic, but I want to clear this up.

Last Thursday I had received a lot of email responses from virus
scanning software from recipients on the ips mailing list mentioning
a virus that appeared to be sent by me.  Since I don't use Windows
for email, it seemed odd that I could have sent anything.

It turns out I didn't send it, but I want to figure out where it
came from.

Here's what happened.  The email to the ips list was sent from
a machine at austin.rr.com (RoadRunner), with the From: line set
to my address.  SMTP lets you do this; you can send an email that
appears to be "From:" anyone you want.  Here are the recieve
headers from the machines that sent to majordomo:

Received: 
from sm13.texas.rr.com (sm13.texas.rr.com [24.93.35.40]) by ece.cmu.edu (8.11.0/8.10.2)
with ESMTP id g7N3Koo15994 for <ips@ece.cmu.edu>; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 23:20:51
-0400 (EDT)

Received: 
from Cudhz (cs24243252-119.austin.rr.com [24.243.252.119]) by sm13.texas.rr.com
(8.12.1/8.12.0.Beta16) with SMTP id g7N3OVDg010776 for <ips@ece.cmu.edu>; Thu, 22
Aug 2002 22:24:32 -0500

Does anyone recognize the account or host named cs24243252-119?

Thanks,

-- 
Mark A. Bakke
Cisco Systems
mbakke@cisco.com
763.398.1054


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Tue Aug 27 13:18:41 2002
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Message-ID: <1BEBA5E8600DD4119A50009027AF54A00DB9FCAB@axcs04.cos.agilent.com>
From: pat_thaler@agilent.com
To: mbakke@cisco.com, ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: Virus sent last Thursday - Anyone use RoadRunner?
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 10:45:30 -0600
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Mark, 

This has come up on this list before. There are a group of viruses that
use addresses that they find on the infected computer as the from 
address on the infected emails they send.  

When people get an infected email, they should check to see where
it really came from and not assume that it was really send by the
person in the from line. To do this for outlook, one uses View
Options which has a box containing the internet headers (not very 
intuitive). 

Regards,
Pat

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Bakke [mailto:mbakke@cisco.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2002 8:37 AM
To: IPS
Subject: Virus sent last Thursday - Anyone use RoadRunner?



Sorry this is a bit off-topic, but I want to clear this up.

Last Thursday I had received a lot of email responses from virus
scanning software from recipients on the ips mailing list mentioning
a virus that appeared to be sent by me.  Since I don't use Windows
for email, it seemed odd that I could have sent anything.

It turns out I didn't send it, but I want to figure out where it
came from.

Here's what happened.  The email to the ips list was sent from
a machine at austin.rr.com (RoadRunner), with the From: line set
to my address.  SMTP lets you do this; you can send an email that
appears to be "From:" anyone you want.  Here are the recieve
headers from the machines that sent to majordomo:

Received: 
from sm13.texas.rr.com (sm13.texas.rr.com [24.93.35.40]) by ece.cmu.edu (8.11.0/8.10.2)
with ESMTP id g7N3Koo15994 for <ips@ece.cmu.edu>; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 23:20:51
-0400 (EDT)

Received: 
from Cudhz (cs24243252-119.austin.rr.com [24.243.252.119]) by sm13.texas.rr.com
(8.12.1/8.12.0.Beta16) with SMTP id g7N3OVDg010776 for <ips@ece.cmu.edu>; Thu, 22
Aug 2002 22:24:32 -0500

Does anyone recognize the account or host named cs24243252-119?

Thanks,

-- 
Mark A. Bakke
Cisco Systems
mbakke@cisco.com
763.398.1054


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Tue Aug 27 15:18:15 2002
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Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 14:01:22 -0500
From: Mark Bakke <mbakke@cisco.com>
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To: pat_thaler@agilent.com
CC: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: Virus sent last Thursday - Anyone use RoadRunner?
References: <1BEBA5E8600DD4119A50009027AF54A00DB9FCAB@axcs04.cos.agilent.com>
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Pat-

Thanks.  Actually, nobody on the list complained about it; the
automated virus-scanners sent the responses.

I took Paul K's advise and forwarded the traceable response to
the service provider, so they can handle it.

Thanks,

--
Mark

pat_thaler@agilent.com wrote:
> 
> Mark,
> 
> This has come up on this list before. There are a group of viruses that
> use addresses that they find on the infected computer as the from
> address on the infected emails they send.
> 
> When people get an infected email, they should check to see where
> it really came from and not assume that it was really send by the
> person in the from line. To do this for outlook, one uses View
> Options which has a box containing the internet headers (not very
> intuitive).
> 
> Regards,
> Pat
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Bakke [mailto:mbakke@cisco.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2002 8:37 AM
> To: IPS
> Subject: Virus sent last Thursday - Anyone use RoadRunner?
> 
> Sorry this is a bit off-topic, but I want to clear this up.
> 
> Last Thursday I had received a lot of email responses from virus
> scanning software from recipients on the ips mailing list mentioning
> a virus that appeared to be sent by me.  Since I don't use Windows
> for email, it seemed odd that I could have sent anything.
> 
> It turns out I didn't send it, but I want to figure out where it
> came from.
> 
> Here's what happened.  The email to the ips list was sent from
> a machine at austin.rr.com (RoadRunner), with the From: line set
> to my address.  SMTP lets you do this; you can send an email that
> appears to be "From:" anyone you want.  Here are the recieve
> headers from the machines that sent to majordomo:
> 
> Received:
> from sm13.texas.rr.com (sm13.texas.rr.com [24.93.35.40]) by ece.cmu.edu (8.11.0/8.10.2)
> with ESMTP id g7N3Koo15994 for <ips@ece.cmu.edu>; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 23:20:51
> -0400 (EDT)
> 
> Received:
> from Cudhz (cs24243252-119.austin.rr.com [24.243.252.119]) by sm13.texas.rr.com
> (8.12.1/8.12.0.Beta16) with SMTP id g7N3OVDg010776 for <ips@ece.cmu.edu>; Thu, 22
> Aug 2002 22:24:32 -0500
> 
> Does anyone recognize the account or host named cs24243252-119?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> --
> Mark A. Bakke
> Cisco Systems
> mbakke@cisco.com
> 763.398.1054

-- 
Mark A. Bakke
Cisco Systems
mbakke@cisco.com
763.398.1054


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Tue Aug 27 16:13:30 2002
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Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 13:03:01 -0700
From: "Gwendal Grignou" <ggrignou@silverbacksystems.com>
Importance: Normal
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	for <ips@ece.cmu.edu>; Tue, 27 Aug 2002 13:02:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: iscsi:  sequence timeout
To: <ips@ece.cmu.edu>
X-AntiVirus: OK! AntiVir MailGate Version 2.0.0.6
	 at ns.silverbacksystems.com has not found any known virus in this email.
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Hello,

First of all, I have a little editing comment: for coherency,
"Sequence timeout" should be renamed "Sequence reception timeout". (2
occurrences)

I have a question about what to do when the Sequence reception timeout
occurs. According to the document, in 5.14.1.b), a sequence timeout is
considered as an implicit sequence errors documented in 5.8 which is
considered as an implicit digest errors documented in 5.7. Target can
either send a recovery R2T or complete the command with sense data,
indicating a "protocol service CRC error". But it is also mentioned in
5.7 that the target should wait for all the data, signaled with a Data
PDU with an F bit) before finishing that command...

To solve this chicken&egg thing, could it be mentioned the target can
terminate the command when the Sequence reception timeout pops up? But
then it has to handle the case the final DataOut PDU arrives after the
"Sequence reception timeout" interval. Should the target take more
drastic action to prevent this situation?

Gwendal.



From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Tue Aug 27 16:14:43 2002
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Message-ID: <3D6BD426.6885877F@splentec.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 15:33:58 -0400
From: Luben Tuikov <luben@splentec.com>
Organization: Splentec Ltd.
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X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Mark Bakke <mbakke@cisco.com>
CC: IPS <ips@ece.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Virus sent last Thursday - Anyone use RoadRunner?
References: <3D6B9C8B.CDCDF925@cisco.com>
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Mark Bakke wrote:
> 
> Received:
> from sm13.texas.rr.com (sm13.texas.rr.com [24.93.35.40]) by ece.cmu.edu (8.11.0/8.10.2)
> with ESMTP id g7N3Koo15994 for <ips@ece.cmu.edu>; Thu, 22 Aug 2002 23:20:51
> -0400 (EDT)
> 
> Received:
> from Cudhz (cs24243252-119.austin.rr.com [24.243.252.119]) by sm13.texas.rr.com
> (8.12.1/8.12.0.Beta16) with SMTP id g7N3OVDg010776 for <ips@ece.cmu.edu>; Thu, 22
> Aug 2002 22:24:32 -0500
> 
> Does anyone recognize the account or host named cs24243252-119?

So it seems that the originating IP is cs24243252-119.austin.rr.com [24.243.252.119].

As of now (Tue Aug 27 15:27:42 EDT 2002) this RR account seems to have
the same IP assigned.

Doing a bit of digging out on arin.net here's what comes up for
CIDR 24.242.0.0/15:

Name:    ServiceCo LLC
Handle:  ZS30-ARIN
Company:
Address: 13241 Woodland Park Road Herndon, VA 20171
Country: US
Comment:
RegDate: 2000-02-23
Updated: 2000-08-16
Phone:   +1-703-345-3416  (Office)
Email:   abuse@rr.com

So this IP is located somewhere in VA.

Email them at the indicated IP and explain the problem.
You may follow this up with a telephone call if you are not
satisfied with the response you get from the email.

-- 
Luben


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Tue Aug 27 18:49:47 2002
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From: "Brian F. G. Bidulock" <bidulock@openss7.org>
To: Black_David@emc.com
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: IPS and SCTP
Message-ID: <20020827162356.A29240@openss7.org>
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Black_David,

Sure.  Perhaps a start would be (for me) to write an
individual submission extension draft for running, say,
iSCSI over SCTP.  Would that be of interest to this WG?
What would be the best timing for such a submission?

--brian

On Tue, 27 Aug 2002, Black_David@emc.com wrote:

> Brian,
> 
> Nothing serious that I know of ... care to volunteer to
> write one/some?
> 
> Thanks,
> --David
> ---------------------------------------------------
> David L. Black, Senior Technologist
> EMC Corporation, 42 South St., Hopkinton, MA  01748
> +1 (508) 249-6449            FAX: +1 (508) 497-8018
> black_david@emc.com       Mobile: +1 (978) 394-7754
> ---------------------------------------------------
> 

-- 
Brian F. G. Bidulock    ¦ The reasonable man adapts himself to the ¦
bidulock@openss7.org    ¦ world; the unreasonable one persists in  ¦
http://www.openss7.org/ ¦ trying  to adapt the  world  to himself. ¦
                        ¦ Therefore  all  progress  depends on the ¦
                        ¦ unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw ¦


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Tue Aug 27 18:49:55 2002
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From: "Mallikarjun C." <cbm@rose.hp.com>
To: "Gwendal Grignou" <ggrignou@silverbacksystems.com>, <ips@ece.cmu.edu>
References: <002d01c24e04$bf25dac0$7810000a@corp.silverbacksystems.com>
Subject: Re: iscsi:  sequence timeout
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 15:19:02 -0700
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Gwendal,

Yes, "sequence timeout" should be changed to "sequence reception 
timeout" for consistency.  Thanks.

> occurs. According to the document, in 5.14.1.b), a sequence timeout is

Only the option of a recovery R2T is allowed in this case, given that
it's the description of "recovery within-command" (and 5.14.1.b makes it
clear).

>could it be mentioned the target can
> terminate the command when the Sequence reception timeout pops up

Only if it's certain that there are no more PDUs relating to the same 
ITT in the pipe *and* the initiator won't issue any further.  The only way 
to ascertain this to ensure that the task is terminated on either end.

>Should the target take more
> drastic action to prevent this situation?
 
Yes, one of the means to force a termination by the target is to drop the 
session.  And I don't recommend it on a sequence reception timeout for 
one I/O.....
--
Mallikarjun

Mallikarjun Chadalapaka
Networked Storage Architecture
Network Storage Solutions
Hewlett-Packard MS 5668 
Roseville CA 95747
cbm@rose.hp.com


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Gwendal Grignou" <ggrignou@silverbacksystems.com>
To: <ips@ece.cmu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2002 1:03 PM
Subject: iscsi: sequence timeout


> Hello,
> 
> First of all, I have a little editing comment: for coherency,
> "Sequence timeout" should be renamed "Sequence reception timeout". (2
> occurrences)
> 
> I have a question about what to do when the Sequence reception timeout
> occurs. According to the document, in 5.14.1.b), a sequence timeout is
> considered as an implicit sequence errors documented in 5.8 which is
> considered as an implicit digest errors documented in 5.7. Target can
> either send a recovery R2T or complete the command with sense data,
> indicating a "protocol service CRC error". But it is also mentioned in
> 5.7 that the target should wait for all the data, signaled with a Data
> PDU with an F bit) before finishing that command...
> 
> To solve this chicken&egg thing, could it be mentioned the target can
> terminate the command when the Sequence reception timeout pops up? But
> then it has to handle the case the final DataOut PDU arrives after the
> "Sequence reception timeout" interval. Should the target take more
> drastic action to prevent this situation?
> 
> Gwendal.
> 
> 



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From: Black_David@emc.com
To: bidulock@openss7.org
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: IPS and SCTP
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 18:19:08 -0400
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Brian,

Nothing serious that I know of ... care to volunteer to
write one/some?

Thanks,
--David
---------------------------------------------------
David L. Black, Senior Technologist
EMC Corporation, 42 South St., Hopkinton, MA  01748
+1 (508) 249-6449            FAX: +1 (508) 497-8018
black_david@emc.com       Mobile: +1 (978) 394-7754
---------------------------------------------------

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brian F. G. Bidulock [mailto:bidulock@openss7.org]
> Sent: Monday, August 26, 2002 1:54 PM
> To: Black_David@emc.com
> Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu
> Subject: Re: iSCSI WG Last Call COMPLETE
> 
> 
> David,
> 
> Congratulations.
> 
> On another note, are there any plans or drafts
> for supporting iSCSI (or IPS in general) over SCTP?
> 
> --brian
> 
> On Mon, 26 Aug 2002, Black_David@emc.com wrote:
> 
> > The ips WG Last Call period on the iSCSI draft,
> > draft-ietf-ips-iscsi-15.txt, closed yesterday.  In
> > the judgment of the WG co-chairs, all of the technical
> > issues that have been raised are relatively minor and
> > can be addressed without a further WG Last Call.  At
> > least one further version of the draft is expected to
> > encompass these as well as a number of editorial
> > changes.
> > 
> > So, the iSCSI draft has *passed* WG Last Call - it's
> > been a lot of work to get here.  Many thanks to all
> > who have contributed, and for the perseverance,
> > dedication and patience of those involved, especially
> > Julian who has put in untold hours of work to get the
> > draft to this stage.  Congratulations.
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > --David and Elizabeth
> > 
> > ---------------------------------------------------
> > David L. Black, Senior Technologist
> > EMC Corporation, 42 South St., Hopkinton, MA  01748
> > +1 (508) 249-6449            FAX: +1 (508) 497-8018
> > black_david@emc.com       Mobile: +1 (978) 394-7754
> > ---------------------------------------------------
> 
> -- 
> Brian F. G. Bidulock    ¦ The reasonable man adapts himself to the ¦
> bidulock@openss7.org    ¦ world; the unreasonable one persists in  ¦
> http://www.openss7.org/ ¦ trying  to adapt the  world  to himself. ¦
>                         ¦ Therefore  all  progress  depends on the ¦
>                         ¦ unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw ¦
> 


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Tue Aug 27 18:50:19 2002
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From: Black_David@emc.com
To: bforbes@Brocade.COM
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: IPS WG Last Call: Structural Improvements
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 18:13:54 -0400
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> Alas, it seems this discussion will soon be 'overcome by events'. 

So I guess it falls to me to explain the forthcoming 'events'.  The
WG co-chairs have asked that the overviews of both Section 4 and
Section 5 be expanded for clarity - as part of AD review and IETF
Last Call, the draft will be read by people who have not been following
the voluminous email discussions on the list and hence don't have the
benefit of the WG's hard-won "accumulated wisdom".  It makes
sense to add text now to make the draft more accessible
to such people.

Brian's request for the expansion of the login overview in Section
4 is within reason, and there should be improvement in this
area.  For Section 5, it appears that moving the discussion of
Error Recovery Levels and Hierarchy to the front of the session
will address much of the corresponding concern.  There will be
some editing of the IANA Considerations text, but we won't know
whether it's really right until IANA reviews it, and that won't
happen for a while yet.

Beyond, this, your WG co-chairs believe that wholesale changes in
terminology, format and structure of sections are not necessary
at this point in time.

Thanks,
--David and Elizabeth

---------------------------------------------------
David L. Black, Senior Technologist
EMC Corporation, 42 South St., Hopkinton, MA  01748
+1 (508) 249-6449            FAX: +1 (508) 497-8018
black_david@emc.com       Mobile: +1 (978) 394-7754
---------------------------------------------------


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Tue Aug 27 18:50:34 2002
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From: Black_David@emc.com
To: bidulock@openss7.org
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: IPS and SCTP
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 18:40:44 -0400
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Brian,

> Sure.  Perhaps a start would be (for me) to write an
> individual submission extension draft for running, say,
> iSCSI over SCTP.  Would that be of interest to this WG?
> What would be the best timing for such a submission?

I can't speak for the WG as a whole, but that sounds like
a reasonable course of action to me.  Getting a first
version of your draft submitted far enough in advance
of the Atlanta meetings so that people will have time to read
and consider it (i.e., well before the "just prior to the
deadline" draft deluge) ought to allow the WG the opportunity
to decide whether to make it an official work item in Atlanta.

A few iSCSI over SCTP things to start with:
- Header digests can be eliminated since SCTP now uses CRC32C,
	and should result in a visible simplification of error
	recovery.
- Unless SCTP has changed to allow load balancing as part of
	its multi-homing/failover support, iSCSI sessions will
	need to support multiple SCTP sessions per connection
	for load balancing.
- SCTP's ability to avoid head-of-line blocking should be useful
	when immediate delivery of iSCSI commands is requested.

Enjoy,
--David
---------------------------------------------------
David L. Black, Senior Technologist
EMC Corporation, 42 South St., Hopkinton, MA  01748
+1 (508) 249-6449            FAX: +1 (508) 497-8018
black_david@emc.com       Mobile: +1 (978) 394-7754
---------------------------------------------------


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Tue Aug 27 19:05:16 2002
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Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 16:49:49 -0600
From: "Brian F. G. Bidulock" <bidulock@openss7.org>
To: Black_David@emc.com
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: IPS and SCTP
Message-ID: <20020827164949.A30083@openss7.org>
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David,

Thanks for the tips.  I think that it should be possible
to release a draft before the Atlanta meeting.  Can I bounce
preliminary drafts off of you?

--brian

On Tue, 27 Aug 2002, Black_David@emc.com wrote:

> Brian,
> 
> > Sure.  Perhaps a start would be (for me) to write an
> > individual submission extension draft for running, say,
> > iSCSI over SCTP.  Would that be of interest to this WG?
> > What would be the best timing for such a submission?
> 
> I can't speak for the WG as a whole, but that sounds like
> a reasonable course of action to me.  Getting a first
> version of your draft submitted far enough in advance
> of the Atlanta meetings so that people will have time to read
> and consider it (i.e., well before the "just prior to the
> deadline" draft deluge) ought to allow the WG the opportunity
> to decide whether to make it an official work item in Atlanta.
> 
> A few iSCSI over SCTP things to start with:
> - Header digests can be eliminated since SCTP now uses CRC32C,
> 	and should result in a visible simplification of error
> 	recovery.
> - Unless SCTP has changed to allow load balancing as part of
> 	its multi-homing/failover support, iSCSI sessions will
> 	need to support multiple SCTP sessions per connection
> 	for load balancing.
> - SCTP's ability to avoid head-of-line blocking should be useful
> 	when immediate delivery of iSCSI commands is requested.
> 
> Enjoy,
> --David
> ---------------------------------------------------
> David L. Black, Senior Technologist
> EMC Corporation, 42 South St., Hopkinton, MA  01748
> +1 (508) 249-6449            FAX: +1 (508) 497-8018
> black_david@emc.com       Mobile: +1 (978) 394-7754
> ---------------------------------------------------

-- 
Brian F. G. Bidulock    ¦ The reasonable man adapts himself to the ¦
bidulock@openss7.org    ¦ world; the unreasonable one persists in  ¦
http://www.openss7.org/ ¦ trying  to adapt the  world  to himself. ¦
                        ¦ Therefore  all  progress  depends on the ¦
                        ¦ unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw ¦


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Tue Aug 27 20:28:24 2002
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Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 19:52:27 -0400
From: Luben Tuikov <luben@splentec.com>
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To: David Black <Black_David@emc.com>,
        Julian Satran <Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com>
CC: iSCSI <ips@ece.cmu.edu>
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David, Julian,

There appears to be no appropriate Identifier Type
(Table 268, SPC-3, r8) which can report the SCSI
Target Port Identifier/Name.

I've communicated this with the T10 people and
they suggested that an iSCSI person bring in a proposal
for a new identifier type that would handle iSCSI name
requirements.

Please keep me posted on this,
-- 
Luben

P.S. Size requirements are to be handled by T10 document
02-303r0.


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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Dynamic Host Configuration Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: DHCP Options for Internet Storage Name Service
	Author(s)	: J. Tseng et al.
	Filename	: draft-ietf-dhc-isnsoption-02.txt,.pdf
	Pages		: 11
	Date		: 2002-8-27
	
This document describes the DHCP option to allow iSNS clients
devices using DHCP to automatically discover the location of the
iSNS server. iSNS provides discovery and management capabilities for
iSCSI and Fibre Channel (FCP) storage devices in an enterprise-scale
IP storage network.  iSNS provides intelligent storage management
services comparable to those found in Fibre Channel networks,
allowing a commodity IP network to function in a similar capacity as
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the IP Storage Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: Securing Block Storage Protocols over IP
	Author(s)	: B. Aboba et al.
	Filename	: draft-ietf-ips-security-15.txt
	Pages		: 67
	Date		: 2002-8-27
	
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From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Wed Aug 28 11:43:52 2002
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CC: bidulock@openss7.org, ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: IPS and SCTP
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Just one clarification; although header digests can be eliminated,
data digests must remain for the same reasons given in the
security draft.

--
Mark

Black_David@emc.com wrote:
> 
> Brian,
> 
> > Sure.  Perhaps a start would be (for me) to write an
> > individual submission extension draft for running, say,
> > iSCSI over SCTP.  Would that be of interest to this WG?
> > What would be the best timing for such a submission?
> 
> I can't speak for the WG as a whole, but that sounds like
> a reasonable course of action to me.  Getting a first
> version of your draft submitted far enough in advance
> of the Atlanta meetings so that people will have time to read
> and consider it (i.e., well before the "just prior to the
> deadline" draft deluge) ought to allow the WG the opportunity
> to decide whether to make it an official work item in Atlanta.
> 
> A few iSCSI over SCTP things to start with:
> - Header digests can be eliminated since SCTP now uses CRC32C,
>         and should result in a visible simplification of error
>         recovery.
> - Unless SCTP has changed to allow load balancing as part of
>         its multi-homing/failover support, iSCSI sessions will
>         need to support multiple SCTP sessions per connection
>         for load balancing.
> - SCTP's ability to avoid head-of-line blocking should be useful
>         when immediate delivery of iSCSI commands is requested.
> 
> Enjoy,
> --David
> ---------------------------------------------------
> David L. Black, Senior Technologist
> EMC Corporation, 42 South St., Hopkinton, MA  01748
> +1 (508) 249-6449            FAX: +1 (508) 497-8018
> black_david@emc.com       Mobile: +1 (978) 394-7754
> ---------------------------------------------------

-- 
Mark A. Bakke
Cisco Systems
mbakke@cisco.com
763.398.1054


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Wed Aug 28 11:52:32 2002
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From: Black_David@emc.com
To: mbakke@cisco.com
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: IPS and SCTP
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 11:29:35 -0400
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I agree, especially as data digests were separated from header
digests to allow proxies to do the proverbial "right thing" for
data integrity (CRC32C on data is preserved [end-to-end] through
the proxy, rather than stripped and regenerated by the proxy),
and iSCSI/SCTP to iSCSI/TCP proxies are quite likely to appear
as one consequence of running iSCSI over SCTP.

Thanks,
--David

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Bakke [mailto:mbakke@cisco.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 11:23 AM
> To: Black_David@emc.com
> Cc: bidulock@openss7.org; ips@ece.cmu.edu
> Subject: Re: IPS and SCTP
> 
> 
> 
> Just one clarification; although header digests can be eliminated,
> data digests must remain for the same reasons given in the
> security draft.
> 
> --
> Mark
> 
> Black_David@emc.com wrote:
> > 
> > Brian,
> > 
> > > Sure.  Perhaps a start would be (for me) to write an
> > > individual submission extension draft for running, say,
> > > iSCSI over SCTP.  Would that be of interest to this WG?
> > > What would be the best timing for such a submission?
> > 
> > I can't speak for the WG as a whole, but that sounds like
> > a reasonable course of action to me.  Getting a first
> > version of your draft submitted far enough in advance
> > of the Atlanta meetings so that people will have time to read
> > and consider it (i.e., well before the "just prior to the
> > deadline" draft deluge) ought to allow the WG the opportunity
> > to decide whether to make it an official work item in Atlanta.
> > 
> > A few iSCSI over SCTP things to start with:
> > - Header digests can be eliminated since SCTP now uses CRC32C,
> >         and should result in a visible simplification of error
> >         recovery.
> > - Unless SCTP has changed to allow load balancing as part of
> >         its multi-homing/failover support, iSCSI sessions will
> >         need to support multiple SCTP sessions per connection
> >         for load balancing.
> > - SCTP's ability to avoid head-of-line blocking should be useful
> >         when immediate delivery of iSCSI commands is requested.
> > 
> > Enjoy,
> > --David
> > ---------------------------------------------------
> > David L. Black, Senior Technologist
> > EMC Corporation, 42 South St., Hopkinton, MA  01748
> > +1 (508) 249-6449            FAX: +1 (508) 497-8018
> > black_david@emc.com       Mobile: +1 (978) 394-7754
> > ---------------------------------------------------
> 
> -- 
> Mark A. Bakke
> Cisco Systems
> mbakke@cisco.com
> 763.398.1054
> 


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Wed Aug 28 11:55:46 2002
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From: Black_David@emc.com
To: luben@splentec.com
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: SCSI Target Port Name/Identifier and VPD Identifier type
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 11:25:09 -0400
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Luben,

I checked with a "usually reliable" T10 source and got the following
back:

	For this particular proposal, I really haven't seen a need.
	The port is identified on the iSCSI layer where it really matters.
	In inquiry, the only relevant information (in my opinion) is LU
	identifier [...snip...] [but] the logical unit doesn't really
	have a good view of the ports (particularly when the LU is
	accessible through more than one device (which is what gateways
	create)).  So, it doesn't really make sense to ask the LU about
	its ports.  A more rational approach is to define a Well-known LU
	(a device level object) whose job is to report on the physical
	topology of its ports.   For iSCSI, that is already available
	through SendTargets.

I suggest approaching T10 directly to continue this discussion.  T10
is an open organization that welcomes the participation of all (although
T10 does charge membership fees).  Contact Elizabeth or myself directly
if you need/want help or advice in approaching/working with T10.

Thanks,
--David
---------------------------------------------------
David L. Black, Senior Technologist
EMC Corporation, 42 South St., Hopkinton, MA  01748
+1 (508) 249-6449            FAX: +1 (508) 497-8018
black_david@emc.com       Mobile: +1 (978) 394-7754
---------------------------------------------------


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Luben Tuikov [mailto:luben@splentec.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2002 7:52 PM
> To: David Black; Julian Satran
> Cc: iSCSI
> Subject: SCSI Target Port Name/Identifier and VPD Identifier type
> 
> 
> David, Julian,
> 
> There appears to be no appropriate Identifier Type
> (Table 268, SPC-3, r8) which can report the SCSI
> Target Port Identifier/Name.
> 
> I've communicated this with the T10 people and
> they suggested that an iSCSI person bring in a proposal
> for a new identifier type that would handle iSCSI name
> requirements.
> 
> Please keep me posted on this,
> -- 
> Luben
> 
> P.S. Size requirements are to be handled by T10 document
> 02-303r0.
> 


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Wed Aug 28 13:39:18 2002
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Subject: does iSCSI support CHAP challenges at random intervals?
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 09:56:44 -0700
Message-ID: <2A8D600C919D2D41A3DAA2D2FEC7171401A939@homer.qlogic.org>
Thread-Topic: does iSCSI support CHAP challenges at random intervals?
Thread-Index: AcJOs+YtJXoWLLnaEdaKsgBQ2thomQ==
From: "Dean Scoville" <dean.scoville@qlogic.com>
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The CHAP RFC (RFC 1994) allows the authenticator to send a new challenge to the peer at random intervals. I don't see any mention of this in the IPS Security document or the iSCSI Draft. In the iSCSI Draft, the CHAP keys are discussed in section 10 with regard to the Security Stage of Login, but are not mentioned in full feature phase.  As far as iSCSI is concerned, is CHAP authentication a one-time occurance during login, or are new challenges also allowed/expected at random intervals during the life of the connection? If re-authentication is allowed, then an example would be helpful in the text (target initiates authentication via async msg requesting parameter negotiation, then issues CHAP_I CHAP_C challenge in response to empty text request pdu; or initiator initiates authentication via text request containing CHAP_A key, etc...). If it is not allowed, perhaps we should explicitly state this in the iSCSI draft and/or IPS Security document, since it is a difference betwee!
n iSCSI usage of CHAP and that allowed by the RFC.
thanks,
Dean Scoville
QLogic


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Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 12:34:54 -0500
From: Mark Bakke <mbakke@cisco.com>
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To: Dean Scoville <dean.scoville@qlogic.com>
CC: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: does iSCSI support CHAP challenges at random intervals?
References: <2A8D600C919D2D41A3DAA2D2FEC7171401A939@homer.qlogic.org>
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Dean-

Re-authenticating a connection using CHAP is not allowed in iSCSI.
However, the same thing can be accomplished by doing a relogin.
If an initiator wants to re-authenticate, it can open a new iSCSI
connection to replace the old one, then phase out the old one.
If a target wants to re-authenticate, it can use the async message
to request that the initiator log out of the connection within
a certain period of time.

This will work differently depending on whether single- or multiple-
connection sessions are supported, but (at least with disk) can
be made to work well in both cases.

-
Mark

Dean Scoville wrote:
> 
> The CHAP RFC (RFC 1994) allows the authenticator to send a new challenge to the peer at random intervals. I don't see any mention of this in the IPS Security document or the iSCSI Draft. In the iSCSI Draft, the CHAP keys are discussed in section 10 with regard to the Security Stage of Login, but are not mentioned in full feature phase.  As far as iSCSI is concerned, is CHAP authentication a one-time occurance during login, or are new challenges also allowed/expected at random intervals during the life of the connection? If re-authentication is allowed, then an example would be helpful in the text (target initiates authentication via async msg requesting parameter negotiation, then issues CHAP_I CHAP_C challenge in response to empty text request pdu; or initiator initiates authentication via text request containing CHAP_A key, etc...). If it is not allowed, perhaps we should explicitly state this in the iSCSI draft and/or IPS Security document, since it is a difference betw!
ee!
> n iSCSI usage of CHAP and that allowed by the RFC.
> thanks,
> Dean Scoville
> QLogic

-- 
Mark A. Bakke
Cisco Systems
mbakke@cisco.com
763.398.1054


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Wed Aug 28 15:54:17 2002
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Subject: ExpDataSN in Response PDU
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 12:08:56 -0700
Message-ID: <DE72CE65D8CAD640854704229A3B5F2D1DED26@AVEXCH01.qlogic.org>
Thread-Topic: IPS and SCTP
Thread-Index: AcJOHCJehC38xHIOS366qmH3L+M7VgAptA+g
From: "Chuck Micalizzi" <chuck.micalizzi@qlogic.com>
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Julian,
	
    Can we rename the ExpDataSN field in the Response PDU?
    
    Since the addition of data sequences the ExpDataSN (in my
    opinion) is not an accurate title for this field.

    9.4.8 ExpDataSN
    The number of Data-In (read) PDUs the target has sent 
    for the command...

    Prior to the addition of data sequences it made sense that 
    the total DataIn PDU count was the same as the ExpDataSN. But
    since sequences require the DataSN to be reset at the start of 
    a sequence the total Data-In PDU count may not equal ExpDataSN. 

chuck


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From: Elizabeth Rodriguez <erodrigu@Brocade.COM>
To: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: IPS-All:  WG Last Call on "Bootstrapping Clients using the iSCSI 
	Protocol"
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All,

We would like to announce IPS WG last call on the draft "Bootstrapping
Clients using the iSCSI Protocol".
The last call period is for two weeks, ending at 5pm EST on Thursday,
September 12.

Editorial comments may be directly sent to the editor/authors of the
document -- 
with copy to myself [erodrigu@brocade.com], David Black
[black_david@emc.com] and John Hufferd [hufferd@us.ibm.com]

Technical comments should be sent to the IPS mailing list for discussion.

Summary:
Draft:  	Bootstrapping Clients using the iSCSI Protocol
URL:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ips-iscsi-boot-06.txt
Period:	2 weeks, ending at 5pm Thursday, Sept 12
Editor:	Prasenjit Sarkar [psarkar@almaden.ibm.com]
Authors:	Prasenjit Sarkar [psarkar@almaden.ibm.com]
		Constantine Sapuntzakis [csapuntz@cisco.com]
		Duncan Missimer [dmissimer@rhapsodynetworks.com]
TC:		John Hufferd [hufferd@us.ibm.com]

Thanks,

Elizabeth Rodriguez & David Black,
IPS co-chairs


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charset=3Diso-8859-1">
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<TITLE>IPS-All:  WG Last Call on &quot;Bootstrapping Clients using the =
iSCSI Protocol&quot;</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>All,</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>We would like to announce IPS WG last call on the =
draft &quot;Bootstrapping Clients using the iSCSI =
Protocol&quot;.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>The last call period is for two weeks, ending at 5pm =
EST on Thursday, September 12.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Editorial comments may be directly sent to the =
editor/authors of the document -- </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>with copy to myself [erodrigu@brocade.com], David =
Black [black_david@emc.com] and John Hufferd =
[hufferd@us.ibm.com]</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Technical comments should be sent to the IPS mailing =
list for discussion.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Summary:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Draft:&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Bootstrapping Clients using =
the iSCSI Protocol</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>URL:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <A =
HREF=3D"http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ips-iscsi-boot-06=
.txt" =
TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ips-isc=
si-boot-06.txt</A></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Period: 2 weeks, ending at 5pm Thursday, Sept =
12</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Editor: Prasenjit Sarkar =
[psarkar@almaden.ibm.com]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Authors:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Prasenjit Sarkar [psarkar@almaden.ibm.com]</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>Constantine =
Sapuntzakis [csapuntz@cisco.com]</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>Duncan =
Missimer [dmissimer@rhapsodynetworks.com]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>TC:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; John Hufferd =
[hufferd@us.ibm.com]</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Thanks,</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Elizabeth Rodriguez &amp; David Black,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>IPS co-chairs</FONT>
</P>

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From: Elizabeth Rodriguez <erodrigu@Brocade.COM>
To: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: IPS-All:  WG Last Call on "iSCSI Naming and Discovery"
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 14:51:31 -0700
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All,

We would like to announce IPS WG last call on the draft "iSCSI Naming and
Discovery ".
The last call period is for two weeks, ending at 5pm EST on Thursday,
September 12.

Editorial comments may be directly sent to the editor/authors of the
document -- 
with copy to myself [erodrigu@brocade.com], David Black
[black_david@emc.com] and John Hufferd [hufferd@us.ibm.com]

Technical comments should be sent to the IPS mailing list for discussion.

Summary:
Draft:  	iSCSI Naming and Discovery 

URL:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ips-iscsi-name-disc-06.txt
Period:	2 weeks, ending at 5pm Thursday, Sept 12
Editor:	Mark Bakke [mbakke@cisco.com]
Authors:	Mark Bakke [mbakke@cisco.com]
		Jim Hafner [hafner@almaden.ibm.com]
		John Hufferd [hufferd@us.ibm.com]
		Kaladhar Voruganti [kaladhar@us.ibm.com]
		Marjorie Krueger [marjorie_krueger@hp.com]
TC:		John Hufferd [hufferd@us.ibm.com]

Thanks,

Elizabeth Rodriguez & David Black,
IPS co-chairs



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<HEAD>
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charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version =
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<TITLE>IPS-All:  WG Last Call on &quot;iSCSI Naming and =
Discovery&quot;</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>All,</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>We would like to announce IPS WG last call on the =
draft &quot;iSCSI Naming and Discovery &quot;.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>The last call period is for two weeks, ending at 5pm =
EST on Thursday, September 12.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Editorial comments may be directly sent to the =
editor/authors of the document -- </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>with copy to myself [erodrigu@brocade.com], David =
Black [black_david@emc.com] and John Hufferd =
[hufferd@us.ibm.com]</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Technical comments should be sent to the IPS mailing =
list for discussion.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Summary:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Draft:&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; iSCSI Naming and Discovery =
</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>URL:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <A =
HREF=3D"http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ips-iscsi-name-di=
sc-06.txt" =
TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ips-isc=
si-name-disc-06.txt</A></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Period: 2 weeks, ending at 5pm Thursday, Sept =
12</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Editor: Mark Bakke [mbakke@cisco.com]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>Authors:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Mark Bakke [mbakke@cisco.com]</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>Jim Hafner =
[hafner@almaden.ibm.com]</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>John Hufferd =
[hufferd@us.ibm.com]</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>Kaladhar =
Voruganti [kaladhar@us.ibm.com]</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT SIZE=3D2>Marjorie =
Krueger [marjorie_krueger@hp.com]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>TC:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; John Hufferd =
[hufferd@us.ibm.com]</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Thanks,</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>Elizabeth Rodriguez &amp; David Black,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2>IPS co-chairs</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

</BODY>
</HTML>
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From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Thu Aug 29 02:42:56 2002
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To: "Dean Scoville" <dean.scoville@qlogic.com>
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu, owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: Re: does iSCSI support CHAP challenges at random intervals?
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No - reauthentication was not considered.  Julo




"Dean Scoville" <dean.scoville@qlogic.com>
Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
28/08/02 19:56

 
        To:     <ips@ece.cmu.edu>
        cc: 
        Subject:        does iSCSI support CHAP challenges at random intervals?

 

The CHAP RFC (RFC 1994) allows the authenticator to send a new challenge 
to the peer at random intervals. I don't see any mention of this in the 
IPS Security document or the iSCSI Draft. In the iSCSI Draft, the CHAP 
keys are discussed in section 10 with regard to the Security Stage of 
Login, but are not mentioned in full feature phase.  As far as iSCSI is 
concerned, is CHAP authentication a one-time occurance during login, or 
are new challenges also allowed/expected at random intervals during the 
life of the connection? If re-authentication is allowed, then an example 
would be helpful in the text (target initiates authentication via async 
msg requesting parameter negotiation, then issues CHAP_I CHAP_C challenge 
in response to empty text request pdu; or initiator initiates 
authentication via text request containing CHAP_A key, etc...). If it is 
not allowed, perhaps we should explicitly state this in the iSCSI draft 
and/or IPS Security document, since it is a difference betwee!
n iSCSI usage of CHAP and that allowed by the RFC.
thanks,
Dean Scoville
QLogic



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<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">No - reauthentication was not considered. &nbsp;Julo</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>&quot;Dean Scoville&quot; &lt;dean.scoville@qlogic.com&gt;</b></font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu</font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">28/08/02 19:56</font>
<br>
<td><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&lt;ips@ece.cmu.edu&gt;</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;does iSCSI support CHAP challenges at random intervals?</font>
<br>
<br><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font></table>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">The CHAP RFC (RFC 1994) allows the authenticator to send a new challenge to the peer at random intervals. I don't see any mention of this in the IPS Security document or the iSCSI Draft. In the iSCSI Draft, the CHAP keys are discussed in section 10 with regard to the Security Stage of Login, but are not mentioned in full feature phase. &nbsp;As far as iSCSI is concerned, is CHAP authentication a one-time occurance during login, or are new challenges also allowed/expected at random intervals during the life of the connection? If re-authentication is allowed, then an example would be helpful in the text (target initiates authentication via async msg requesting parameter negotiation, then issues CHAP_I CHAP_C challenge in response to empty text request pdu; or initiator initiates authentication via text request containing CHAP_A key, etc...). If it is not allowed, perhaps we should explicitly state this in the iSCSI draft and/or IPS Security !
document, since it is a difference betwee!<br>
n iSCSI usage of CHAP and that allowed by the RFC.<br>
thanks,<br>
Dean Scoville<br>
QLogic<br>
</font>
<br>
<br>
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To: "Chuck Micalizzi" <chuck.micalizzi@qlogic.com>
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu, owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
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Subject: Re: ExpDataSN in Response PDU
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From: "Julian Satran" <Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com>
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Chuck,

Sorry - ay too late for a field name change.  It may be a bit misleading 
in the response but it is in the position held by ExpDataSN in other PDUs 
and it
is the total number of  Data-In PDUs. Data-In PDUs are not counted 
separately per sequence!

Julo




"Chuck Micalizzi" <chuck.micalizzi@qlogic.com>
Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
28/08/02 22:08

 
        To:     <ips@ece.cmu.edu>
        cc: 
        Subject:        ExpDataSN in Response PDU

 

Julian,
 
    Can we rename the ExpDataSN field in the Response PDU?
 
    Since the addition of data sequences the ExpDataSN (in my
    opinion) is not an accurate title for this field.

    9.4.8 ExpDataSN
    The number of Data-In (read) PDUs the target has sent 
    for the command...

    Prior to the addition of data sequences it made sense that 
    the total DataIn PDU count was the same as the ExpDataSN. But
    since sequences require the DataSN to be reset at the start of 
    a sequence the total Data-In PDU count may not equal ExpDataSN. 

chuck



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<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Chuck,</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Sorry - ay too late for a field name change. &nbsp;It may be a bit misleading in the response but it is in the position held by ExpDataSN in other PDUs and it</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">is the total number of &nbsp;Data-In PDUs. Data-In PDUs are not counted separately per sequence!</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Julo</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>&quot;Chuck Micalizzi&quot; &lt;chuck.micalizzi@qlogic.com&gt;</b></font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu</font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">28/08/02 22:08</font>
<br>
<td><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&lt;ips@ece.cmu.edu&gt;</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;ExpDataSN in Response PDU</font>
<br>
<br><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font></table>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">Julian,<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; <br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp;Can we rename the ExpDataSN field in the Response PDU?<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp;<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp;Since the addition of data sequences the ExpDataSN (in my<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp;opinion) is not an accurate title for this field.<br>
<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp;9.4.8 ExpDataSN<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp;The number of Data-In (read) PDUs the target has sent <br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp;for the command...<br>
<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp;Prior to the addition of data sequences it made sense that <br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp;the total DataIn PDU count was the same as the ExpDataSN. But<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp;since sequences require the DataSN to be reset at the start of <br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp;a sequence the total Data-In PDU count may not equal ExpDataSN. <br>
<br>
chuck<br>
</font>
<br>
<br>
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--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the IP Storage Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: Fibre Channel Over TCP/IP (FCIP)
	Author(s)	: M. Rajagopal, E. Rodriguez, R. Weber
	Filename	: draft-ietf-ips-fcovertcpip-12.txt,.pdf
	Pages		: 68
	Date		: 2002-8-28
	
Fibre Channel Over TCP/IP (FCIP) describes mechanisms that allow the
interconnection of islands of Fibre Channel storage area networks
over IP-based networks to form a unified storage area network in a
single Fibre Channel fabric. FCIP relies on IP-based network
services to provide the connectivity between the storage area
network islands over local area networks, metropolitan area
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From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Thu Aug 29 11:19:47 2002
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From: Robert Grant <Robert.Grant@mcdata.com>
To: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: IPS-All:  WG Last Call on "iSCSI Naming and Discovery"
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 08:45:42 -0600
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Hello,
 
One aspect of the Naming and Discovery draft that I find misleading lies in
the sentence in Section B.3
 
"The gateway may manufacture its own  iSCSI Names, or use those provided by
the real devices." 
 
Now B.3 deals with non-iSCSI devices, so does the phrase "those provided by
the real devices" refer to non-iSCSI devices providing an iSCSI Name? I read
"those provided by the real devices" as the native identifiers (i.e. FC
WWN). This may lead to the conclusion that a Gateway can use the "eui." form
of the iSCSI name in a fairly straight-forward manner. Unfortunately, we
know is not true (at least for the case where multiple gateways can see the
same device on a SAN). So - I suggest a caveat is warranted, like
 
"It is the responsibility of the gateway to ensure the uniqueness of any
iSCSI name it manufactures. The gateway may need to account for multiple
gateways having access to a single real device". 
 
Now - of course I would REALLY like to see something done at the naming
level that would allow gateway vendors to preserve some part of the identity
of the real device in a non-proprietary fashion. But at least alerting
readers to the problem would be a good step.
 
Regards,
Rob.


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Thu Aug 29 11:22:38 2002
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To: Robert Grant <Robert.Grant@mcdata.com>
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: IPS-All: WG Last Call on "iSCSI Naming and Discovery"
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From: Jim Hafner <hafner@almaden.ibm.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 07:52:02 -0700
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Rob,

I think this is a reasonable and acceptable change.  Thanks.

Jim Hafner

Sent by:        owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
To:     ips@ece.cmu.edu
cc: 
Subject:        RE: IPS-All:  WG Last Call on "iSCSI Naming and Discovery"



Hello,

One aspect of the Naming and Discovery draft that I find misleading lies 
in
the sentence in Section B.3

"The gateway may manufacture its own  iSCSI Names, or use those provided 
by
the real devices."

Now B.3 deals with non-iSCSI devices, so does the phrase "those provided 
by
the real devices" refer to non-iSCSI devices providing an iSCSI Name? I 
read
"those provided by the real devices" as the native identifiers (i.e. FC
WWN). This may lead to the conclusion that a Gateway can use the "eui." 
form
of the iSCSI name in a fairly straight-forward manner. Unfortunately, we
know is not true (at least for the case where multiple gateways can see 
the
same device on a SAN). So - I suggest a caveat is warranted, like

"It is the responsibility of the gateway to ensure the uniqueness of any
iSCSI name it manufactures. The gateway may need to account for multiple
gateways having access to a single real device".

Now - of course I would REALLY like to see something done at the naming
level that would allow gateway vendors to preserve some part of the 
identity
of the real device in a non-proprietary fashion. But at least alerting
readers to the problem would be a good step.

Regards,
Rob.


--=_alternative 0051828088256C24_=
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"


<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Rob,</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">I think this is a reasonable and acceptable change. &nbsp;Thanks.<br>
<br>
Jim Hafner<br>
</font>
<p><font size=1 color=#800080 face="sans-serif">Sent by: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu</font>
<p><font size=1 color=#800080 face="sans-serif">To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font><font size=1 face="sans-serif">ips@ece.cmu.edu</font>
<br><font size=1 color=#800080 face="sans-serif">cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </font>
<br><font size=1 color=#800080 face="sans-serif">Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font><font size=1 face="sans-serif">RE: IPS-All: &nbsp;WG Last Call on &quot;iSCSI Naming and Discovery&quot;</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br><font size=2><tt>Hello,<br>
</tt></font>
<br><font size=2><tt>One aspect of the Naming and Discovery draft that I find misleading lies in<br>
the sentence in Section B.3<br>
</tt></font>
<br><font size=2><tt>&quot;The gateway may manufacture its own &nbsp;iSCSI Names, or use those provided by<br>
the real devices.&quot;<br>
</tt></font>
<br><font size=2><tt>Now B.3 deals with non-iSCSI devices, so does the phrase &quot;those provided by<br>
the real devices&quot; refer to non-iSCSI devices providing an iSCSI Name? I read<br>
&quot;those provided by the real devices&quot; as the native identifiers (i.e. FC<br>
WWN). This may lead to the conclusion that a Gateway can use the &quot;eui.&quot; form<br>
of the iSCSI name in a fairly straight-forward manner. Unfortunately, we<br>
know is not true (at least for the case where multiple gateways can see the<br>
same device on a SAN). So - I suggest a caveat is warranted, like<br>
</tt></font>
<br><font size=2><tt>&quot;It is the responsibility of the gateway to ensure the uniqueness of any<br>
iSCSI name it manufactures. The gateway may need to account for multiple<br>
gateways having access to a single real device&quot;.<br>
</tt></font>
<br><font size=2><tt>Now - of course I would REALLY like to see something done at the naming<br>
level that would allow gateway vendors to preserve some part of the identity<br>
of the real device in a non-proprietary fashion. But at least alerting<br>
readers to the problem would be a good step.<br>
</tt></font>
<br><font size=2><tt>Regards,<br>
Rob.</tt></font>
<br>
<br>
--=_alternative 0051828088256C24_=--


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Fri Aug 30 02:57:28 2002
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Subject: iSCSI- draft 16 ready to ship
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From: "Julian Satran" <Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com>
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Dear colleagues,


iSCSI draft 16 is ready to ship.
The working version is on my site.
The only change that I intend to make before shipping is removing the 
change log.

Any (minor) editorial comments are welcome.

Regards,
Julo

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Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"


<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Dear colleagues,</font>
<br>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">iSCSI draft 16 is ready to ship.</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">The working version is on my site.</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">The only change that I intend to make before shipping is removing the change log.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Any (minor) editorial comments are welcome.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Regards,</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Julo</font>
<br>
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From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Fri Aug 30 09:36:54 2002
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Reply-To: <tonyb@cybernetics.com>
From: "Tony Battersby" <tonyb@cybernetics.com>
To: <ips@ece.cmu.edu>
Subject: iSCSI ABORT TASK RefCmdSN question
Date:  Fri, 30 Aug 2002 09:02:46 -0400
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(Sorry if this message is a duplicate.  I sent it once before but I don't
think it got through.)

Suppose an iSCSI target receives an ABORT TASK Task Management Function that
does not refer to a valid task (i.e. the Referenced Task Tag does not match
any task at the target) but the CmdSN is inside the valid window and matches
a non-immediate command that has not yet been delivered for execution.  For
example,

Target's ExpCmdSN is 10.
Target has a queued non-immediate command with CmdSN 11 and Initiator Task
Tag of 55 which has not been delivered for execution because the target is
waiting for a non-immediate command with CmdSN 10 first.
Target receives an immediate ABORT TASK Task Management Function with
Referenced Task Tag of 66 and RefCmdSN of 11.

The relevent portion of the spec is in Section 9.6.1:

"b) if the Referenced Task Tag does not identify an existing task but if the
CmdSN indicated by the RefCmdSN field in the Task Management function
request is within the valid CmdSN window (between MaxCmdSN and ExpCmdSN),
targets must consider the CmdSN received and return the "Function complete"
response."

It seems to me that the intention of the phrase "targets must consider the
CmdSN received" is to force the target to discard the command with CmdSN ==
RefCmdSN if the target receives it later, which would effectively abort the
command before it is received.  In my example, the command with CmdSN ==
RefCmdSN is already received, but it is not aborted since the Referenced
Task Tag does not match the Initiator Task Tag.  According to the above
text, the target is still supposed to return the "Function complete"
response.  Wouldn't it be better to return "Task does not exist" instead, or
maybe some other error?

Anthony J. Battersby
Cybernetics



From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Fri Aug 30 09:38:52 2002
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Reply-To: <tonyb@cybernetics.com>
From: "Tony Battersby" <tonyb@cybernetics.com>
To: <ips@ece.cmu.edu>
Subject: Several iSCSI protocol questions
Date:  Fri, 30 Aug 2002 09:01:49 -0400
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Hi,

I have a few general iSCSI protocol questions.  All questions are based on
Draft 15.

(Sorry if this message is a duplicate.  I sent it once before but I don't
think it got through.)

--- Initiator Task Tag uniqueness ---

Section 2.1, "A SCSI task is a SCSI command or possibly a linked set of SCSI
commands."

Section 2.2.2.1, "Some iSCSI tasks are SCSI tasks, and many SCSI activities
are related to a SCSI task ([SAM2]). In all cases, the task is identified by
the Initiator Task Tag for the life of the task."

Does the above imply that the initiator must (or can?) use the same
Initiator Task Tag for all SCSI commands in a given linked set of SCSI
commands?  If so, then a given Initiator Task Tag may not uniquely identify
a particular SCSI command.  In this case, if the target receives an
unsolicited data PDU, it would have to rely on the requirement that
unsolicited data PDUs must be sent in the same order as the commands were
sent in order to identify the SCSI command associated with the unsolicited
data PDU.  My question: what is to prevent the target from associating an
unsolicited data PDU with the wrong command if the target discarded one of
the linked command PDUs in the task due to a digest error?

--- Task Management Functions ---

Section 9.5.1, "For all these functions, the Task Management function
response MUST be returned as detailed in Section 9.6 Task Management
Function Response."  Does this mean that a Task Management Function with one
of the listed functions cannot be rejected with a Reject PDU if some other
field of the PDU has a value that is a protocol error?

If I read the spec correctly, the ABORT TASK, ABORT TASK SET, CLEAR TASK
SET, and LOGICAL UNIT RESET functions operate on iSCSI tasks that:

1) Have a CmdSN that is lower than the CmdSN of the Task Management
Function, AND
2) Have a valid LUN that is equal to the LUN of the Task Management Function

Since the Task Management Function itself has a CmdSN and valid LUN, can one
Task Management Function affect (abort) another?  If not, then what is the
appropriate Task Management Function Response for an ABORT TASK that
attempts to operate on another Task Management Function?

--- AHS ---

Section 9.2.1.5 TotalAHSLength:

"Total length of all AHS header segments in four byte words including
padding, if any.

The TotalAHSLength is used only in PDUs that have an AHS and MUST be 0 in
all other PDUs."

For the first sentence, I recommend changing the wording to emphasize the
fact that the length is not in bytes (something like "... segments in units
of four byte words ..." with an example given).  I missed this fact the
first time I read it.

The second sentence is confusing since it is not spelled out which PDUs have
an AHS.  Is this sentence specifying a requirement that some pre-defined
list of PDUs that do not have an AHS MUST have TotalAHSLength equal to 0, or
is the sentence simply stating that a nonzero TotalAHSLength implies that an
AHS is present?  In the former case, the list of PDUs not allowed to have an
AHS can be determined by looking elsewhere in the spec (Task Management
Function Request, Task Management Function Response, R2T, Logout Request,
Logout Response).

Next question: if an AHS is present in a PDU allowing it, but the target
does not know what to do with it, should the target reject the PDU or ignore
the AHS?  I noticed that some older drafts had a bit that indicated which to
do, but the bit was dropped in more recent drafts.  If the target should
reject the PDU, what Reject reason should be used?

--- Reject ---

If a target decides to reject a non-immediate command when it can determine
the CmdSN of the command being rejected, should the target return the reject
response immediately, or should the target defer the reject response until
the command being rejected would have been delivered for execution based on
its CmdSN?  If the CmdSN of the command being rejected is outside the valid
command window, should the target ignore the PDU and not return the Reject
response, or should the target return the Reject response anyway?  My guess
is that any of these options are valid, but I want to make sure.  In any
case, it seems that the initiator needs to be prepared to receive multiple
Reject PDUs from the target for a single command if the initiator
re-transmitted the command due to a timeout before receiving (or noticing)
the reject.

--- Logout ---

Section 9.14, "A Logout for a CID may be performed on a different transport
connection when the TCP connection for the CID has already been terminated."
Was this intended to imply that a Logout for a CID MUST be performed on the
same transport connection when the TCP connection for the CID has _not_
already been terminated?


Thanks,
Anthony J. Battersby
Cybernetics



From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Fri Aug 30 10:42:40 2002
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From: Black_David@emc.com
To: tonyb@cybernetics.com, ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: Several iSCSI protocol questions
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 10:05:14 -0400
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Tony,

> Section 2.1, "A SCSI task is a SCSI command or possibly a
> linked set of SCSI commands."
> 
> Section 2.2.2.1, "Some iSCSI tasks are SCSI tasks, and many SCSI
activities
> are related to a SCSI task ([SAM2]). In all cases, the task is identified
by
> the Initiator Task Tag for the life of the task."
> 
> Does the above imply that the initiator must (or can?) use the same
> Initiator Task Tag for all SCSI commands in a given linked set of SCSI
> commands?  If so, then a given Initiator Task Tag may not 
> uniquely identify a particular SCSI command.

Yes, but the inference is incorrect.  SAM-2 defines "linked command" as:

  3.1.58 linked command: One in a series of SCSI commands processed by a
  single task that collectively make up a discrete I/O operation. In such
  a series, each command is represented by the same I_T_L_x nexus, and all,
  except the last, have the LINK bit in the CDB CONTROL byte set to one.

Linked commands are always sequential, not concurrent, as they use the same
I_T_L_x nexus - see the example in Section 5.7.2 of SAM-2.  Only one command
from a set of linked commands is active at any point in time, and hence the
ITT for the linked commands uniquely identifies it.  Linked commands are
rarely used in practice, FWIW.

> --- Task Management Functions ---
> 
> Section 9.5.1, "For all these functions, the Task Management function
> response MUST be returned as detailed in Section 9.6 Task Management
> Function Response."  Does this mean that a Task Management Function with
> one of the listed functions cannot be rejected with a Reject PDU 
> if some other field of the PDU has a value that is a protocol error?

It shouldn't - if there's a protocol error, the Task Management function
cannot be processed.

> If I read the spec correctly, the ABORT TASK, ABORT TASK SET, CLEAR TASK
> SET, and LOGICAL UNIT RESET functions operate on iSCSI tasks that:
> 
> 1) Have a CmdSN that is lower than the CmdSN of the Task Management
> Function, AND
> 2) Have a valid LUN that is equal to the LUN of the Task 
> Management Function
> 
> Since the Task Management Function itself has a CmdSN and 
> valid LUN, can one
> Task Management Function affect (abort) another?

No, SCSI task management functions operate on *SCSI* tasks, not *iSCSI*
tasks, and a task management function is not a *SCSI* task - see SAM-2.

> If not, then what is the
> appropriate Task Management Function Response for an ABORT TASK that
> attempts to operate on another Task Management Function?

That can't happen.  The only task management function that could possibly
attempt "to operate on another Task Management Function" is ABORT TASK, but
it identifies the task to be aborted by an Initiator Task Tag, something
that Task Management Functions *do not* have - see Section 9.5 of the iSCSI
draft.

Beyond this, task management functions generally succeed when the
task set is empty.  In particular, ABORT TASK succeeds when the task to
be aborted is not in the task set - see Section 6.2 of SAM-2.

> --- AHS ---
> 
> Section 9.2.1.5 TotalAHSLength:
> 
> "Total length of all AHS header segments in four byte words including
> padding, if any.
> 
> The TotalAHSLength is used only in PDUs that have an AHS and 
> MUST be 0 in all other PDUs."
> 
> For the first sentence, I recommend changing the wording to 
> emphasize the fact that the length is not in bytes (something like "... 
> segments in unitsof four byte words ..." with an example given).  I missed

> this fact the first time I read it.
> 
> The second sentence is confusing since it is not spelled out 
> which PDUs have an AHS.  Is this sentence specifying a requirement
> that some pre-defined list of PDUs that do not have an AHS MUST have
> TotalAHSLength equal to 0, or is the sentence simply stating that a
> nonzero TotalAHSLength implies that an AHS is present?  In the former
> case, the list of PDUs not allowed to have an AHS can be determined
> by looking elsewhere in the spec (Task Management
> Function Request, Task Management Function Response, R2T, 
> Logout Request, Logout Response).

The former - whether an AHS is present is specified with each PDU
definition.

> Next question: if an AHS is present in a PDU allowing it, but 
> the target does not know what to do with it, should the target reject 
> the PDU or ignore the AHS?

Such a target is broken (if an AHS is allowed, the target has to
expect that it might be present and be prepared to do whatever
is necessary), and should be fixed.

> --- Reject ---
> 
> If a target decides to reject a non-immediate command when it 
> can determine
> the CmdSN of the command being rejected, should the target 
> return the reject
> response immediately, or should the target defer the reject 
> response until
> the command being rejected would have been delivered for 
> execution based on
> its CmdSN?

Returning the Reject earlier will probably be appreciated by the
initiator.  There's no requirement to wait.

> If the CmdSN of the command being rejected is 
> outside the valid
> command window, should the target ignore the PDU and not 
> return the Reject
> response, or should the target return the Reject response 
> anyway?

Ignore it.  Section 2.2.2.1 says:

  For non-immediate commands, the CmdSN field can take any value from 
  ExpCmdSN to MaxCmdSN inclusive. The target MUST silently ignore any 
  non-immediate command outside of this range or non-immediate dupli-
  cates within the range. 

"silently" is the key word in this text.

> --- Logout ---
> 
> Section 9.14, "A Logout for a CID may be performed on a 
> different transport
> connection when the TCP connection for the CID has already 
> been terminated."
> Was this intended to imply that a Logout for a CID MUST be 
> performed on the
> same transport connection when the TCP connection for the CID 
> has _not_
> already been terminated?

Not exactly.  The problem is that one can get into weird situations
in which the two ends of a TCP connection have different views on
whether it's been terminated.  If the TCP connection is alive,
Logout for that connection should be sent on that connection.

Thanks,
--David
---------------------------------------------------
David L. Black, Senior Technologist
EMC Corporation, 42 South St., Hopkinton, MA  01748
+1 (508) 249-6449            FAX: +1 (508) 497-8018
black_david@emc.com       Mobile: +1 (978) 394-7754
---------------------------------------------------


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Fri Aug 30 10:48:41 2002
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From: Black_David@emc.com
To: tonyb@cybernetics.com, ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: iSCSI ABORT TASK RefCmdSN question
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 10:15:55 -0400
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> Suppose an iSCSI target receives an ABORT TASK Task Management Function
that
> does not refer to a valid task (i.e. the Referenced Task Tag does not
match
> any task at the target) but the CmdSN is inside the valid window and
matches
> a non-immediate command that has not yet been delivered for execution.
For
> example,
> 
> Target's ExpCmdSN is 10.
> Target has a queued non-immediate command with CmdSN 11 and 
> Initiator Task Tag of 55 which has not been delivered for execution
> because the target is waiting for a non-immediate command with CmdSN 10
> first.  Target receives an immediate ABORT TASK Task Management Function
> with Referenced Task Tag of 66 and RefCmdSN of 11.

This is an error.  The initiator has violated the following MUST:

9.5.5  RefCmdSN

   For the ABORT TASK function, initiators MUST always set this to the 
   CmdSN of the task identified by the Referenced Task Tag field. Tar-
   gets must use this field as described in section 9.6.1 when the task 
   identified by the Referenced Task Tag field is not with the target.

A Reject PDU with Reason 0x09 will do nicely to tell the Initiator that
it screwed up.  Processing an erroneous task management function
request by trying to infer what the initiator might have intended is
not a good idea.

Thanks,
--David
---------------------------------------------------
David L. Black, Senior Technologist
EMC Corporation, 42 South St., Hopkinton, MA  01748
+1 (508) 249-6449            FAX: +1 (508) 497-8018
black_david@emc.com       Mobile: +1 (978) 394-7754
---------------------------------------------------




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From: Black_David@emc.com
To: tonyb@cybernetics.com, ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: RE: Several iSCSI protocol questions
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 10:58:28 -0400
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> > > Since the Task Management Function itself has a CmdSN and
> > > valid LUN, can one
> > > Task Management Function affect (abort) another?
> >
> > No, SCSI task management functions operate on *SCSI* tasks, not *iSCSI*
> > tasks, and a task management function is not a *SCSI* task - see SAM-2.
> 
> This contradicts the text in Section 9.5.1: "The Task Management functions
> provide an initiator with a way to explicitly control the execution of one
> or more Tasks (SCSI and iSCSI tasks)."  Your interpretation makes more
sense
> to me, however.

And there's more text further down in 9.5.1 that seems to imply that
one ought to be able to abort a Task Management Function.

  All these functions apply to the referenced tasks regard-
  less of whether they are proper SCSI tasks or tagged iSCSI opera-
  tions.

I think you've caught something we need to fix ...

> > > If not, then what is the
> > > appropriate Task Management Function Response for an ABORT TASK that
> > > attempts to operate on another Task Management Function?
> >
> > That can't happen.  The only task management function that could
possibly
> > attempt "to operate on another Task Management Function" is ABORT TASK,
but
> > it identifies the task to be aborted by an Initiator Task Tag, something
> > that Task Management Functions *do not* have - see Section
> > 9.5 of the iSCSI draft.
> 
> I am looking at Section 9.5.  I see "Initiator Task Tag" in the table
> showing the PDU format, although it is not mentioned in the 
> text.  Another typo?

My mistake - I think we have some text cleanup to do, as SAM-2 definitely
considers task management functions not to be tasks, thus avoiding issues
of what happens when a task management function is applied to a task
management function - I believe iSCSI needs to follow this route.  Julian?

Thanks,
--David
---------------------------------------------------
David L. Black, Senior Technologist
EMC Corporation, 42 South St., Hopkinton, MA  01748
+1 (508) 249-6449            FAX: +1 (508) 497-8018
black_david@emc.com       Mobile: +1 (978) 394-7754
---------------------------------------------------


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From: "Tony Battersby" <tonyb@cybernetics.com>
To: <Black_David@emc.com>, <ips@ece.cmu.edu>
Subject: RE: Several iSCSI protocol questions
Date:  Fri, 30 Aug 2002 10:34:33 -0400
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Black_David@emc.com [mailto:Black_David@emc.com]
> Sent: Friday, August 30, 2002 10:05 AM
> To: tonyb@cybernetics.com; ips@ece.cmu.edu
> Subject: RE: Several iSCSI protocol questions

> > Does the above imply that the initiator must (or can?) use the same
> > Initiator Task Tag for all SCSI commands in a given linked
> set of SCSI
> > commands?  If so, then a given Initiator Task Tag may not
> > uniquely identify a particular SCSI command.
>
> Yes, but the inference is incorrect.  SAM-2 defines "linked
> command" as:
>
>   3.1.58 linked command: One in a series of SCSI commands
> processed by a
>   single task that collectively make up a discrete I/O
> operation. In such
>   a series, each command is represented by the same I_T_L_x
> nexus, and all,
>   except the last, have the LINK bit in the CDB CONTROL byte
> set to one.
>
> Linked commands are always sequential, not concurrent, as
> they use the same
> I_T_L_x nexus - see the example in Section 5.7.2 of SAM-2.
> Only one command
> from a set of linked commands is active at any point in time,
> and hence the
> ITT for the linked commands uniquely identifies it.  Linked
> commands are
> rarely used in practice, FWIW.
>


Thanks.  I realized this after I sent the message.


> > --- Task Management Functions ---
> >
> > Section 9.5.1, "For all these functions, the Task
> Management function
> > response MUST be returned as detailed in Section 9.6 Task Management
> > Function Response."  Does this mean that a Task Management
> Function with
> > one of the listed functions cannot be rejected with a Reject PDU
> > if some other field of the PDU has a value that is a protocol error?
>
> It shouldn't - if there's a protocol error, the Task
> Management function
> cannot be processed.


Ok.


> > Since the Task Management Function itself has a CmdSN and
> > valid LUN, can one
> > Task Management Function affect (abort) another?
>
> No, SCSI task management functions operate on *SCSI* tasks,
> not *iSCSI*
> tasks, and a task management function is not a *SCSI* task -
> see SAM-2.


This contradicts the text in Section 9.5.1: "The Task Management functions
provide an initiator with a way to explicitly control the execution of one
or more Tasks (SCSI and iSCSI tasks)."  Your interpretation makes more sense
to me, however.


> > If not, then what is the
> > appropriate Task Management Function Response for an ABORT TASK that
> > attempts to operate on another Task Management Function?
>
> That can't happen.  The only task management function that
> could possibly
> attempt "to operate on another Task Management Function" is
> ABORT TASK, but
> it identifies the task to be aborted by an Initiator Task
> Tag, something
> that Task Management Functions *do not* have - see Section
> 9.5 of the iSCSI
> draft.


I am looking at Section 9.5.  I see "Initiator Task Tag" in the table
showing the PDU format, although it is not mentioned in the text.  Another
typo?


> > --- AHS ---
> > Next question: if an AHS is present in a PDU allowing it, but
> > the target does not know what to do with it, should the
> target reject
> > the PDU or ignore the AHS?
>
> Such a target is broken (if an AHS is allowed, the target has to
> expect that it might be present and be prepared to do whatever
> is necessary), and should be fixed.


Let me give a better example: Section 9.2.2.1, AHSType, lists "60- 63
Non-iSCSI extensions".  What should the target do if it comes across an AHS
with an AHSType of 60?  Is there some other document specifying what these
codes mean?


> > --- Reject ---
> >
> > If a target decides to reject a non-immediate command when it
> > can determine
> > the CmdSN of the command being rejected, should the target
> > return the reject
> > response immediately, or should the target defer the reject
> > response until
> > the command being rejected would have been delivered for
> > execution based on
> > its CmdSN?
>
> Returning the Reject earlier will probably be appreciated by the
> initiator.  There's no requirement to wait.


Ok.


> > If the CmdSN of the command being rejected is
> > outside the valid
> > command window, should the target ignore the PDU and not
> > return the Reject
> > response, or should the target return the Reject response
> > anyway?
>
> Ignore it.  Section 2.2.2.1 says:
>
>   For non-immediate commands, the CmdSN field can take any value from
>   ExpCmdSN to MaxCmdSN inclusive. The target MUST silently ignore any
>   non-immediate command outside of this range or non-immediate dupli-
>   cates within the range.
>
> "silently" is the key word in this text.


Ok.  The exception of course is if the opcode field is unrecognized, the
target can't be sure if the CmdSN is present in the normal place or not.


> > --- Logout ---
> >
> > Section 9.14, "A Logout for a CID may be performed on a
> > different transport
> > connection when the TCP connection for the CID has already
> > been terminated."
> > Was this intended to imply that a Logout for a CID MUST be
> > performed on the
> > same transport connection when the TCP connection for the CID
> > has _not_
> > already been terminated?
>
> Not exactly.  The problem is that one can get into weird situations
> in which the two ends of a TCP connection have different views on
> whether it's been terminated.  If the TCP connection is alive,
> Logout for that connection should be sent on that connection.
>


Makes sense.


> Thanks,
> --David
> ---------------------------------------------------
> David L. Black, Senior Technologist
> EMC Corporation, 42 South St., Hopkinton, MA  01748
> +1 (508) 249-6449            FAX: +1 (508) 497-8018
> black_david@emc.com       Mobile: +1 (978) 394-7754
> ---------------------------------------------------
>



From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Fri Aug 30 11:27:35 2002
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From: Black_David@emc.com
To: tonyb@cybernetics.com, ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: AHS Codes
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 11:05:20 -0400
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> > > --- AHS ---
> > > Next question: if an AHS is present in a PDU allowing it, but
> > > the target does not know what to do with it, should the target reject
> > > the PDU or ignore the AHS?
> >
> > Such a target is broken (if an AHS is allowed, the target has to
> > expect that it might be present and be prepared to do whatever
> > is necessary), and should be fixed.
> 
> 
> Let me give a better example: Section 9.2.2.1, AHSType, lists "60- 63
> Non-iSCSI extensions".  What should the target do if it comes 
> across an AHS with an AHSType of 60?  Is there some other document 
> specifying what these codes mean?

We don't say anything useful at the moment.  Is there any good reason
not to rip this out and add 60-63 to the Reserved range (currently
3-59)?

Thanks,
--David


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Fri Aug 30 12:54:28 2002
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To: Black_David@emc.com
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu, owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu, tonyb@cybernetics.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: Re: AHS Codes
X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.9  November 16, 2001
From: "Julian Satran" <Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com>
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Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 19:33:52 +0300
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We can rip it off (historical artifact). Unless we want a registry for it 
:-)

Julo




Black_David@emc.com
Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
30/08/02 18:05

 
        To:     tonyb@cybernetics.com, ips@ece.cmu.edu
        cc: 
        Subject:        AHS Codes

 

> > > --- AHS ---
> > > Next question: if an AHS is present in a PDU allowing it, but
> > > the target does not know what to do with it, should the target 
reject
> > > the PDU or ignore the AHS?
> >
> > Such a target is broken (if an AHS is allowed, the target has to
> > expect that it might be present and be prepared to do whatever
> > is necessary), and should be fixed.
> 
> 
> Let me give a better example: Section 9.2.2.1, AHSType, lists "60- 63
> Non-iSCSI extensions".  What should the target do if it comes 
> across an AHS with an AHSType of 60?  Is there some other document 
> specifying what these codes mean?

We don't say anything useful at the moment.  Is there any good reason
not to rip this out and add 60-63 to the Reserved range (currently
3-59)?

Thanks,
--David



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<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">We can rip it off (historical artifact). Unless we want a registry for it :-)</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Julo</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>Black_David@emc.com</b></font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu</font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">30/08/02 18:05</font>
<br>
<td><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;tonyb@cybernetics.com, ips@ece.cmu.edu</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;AHS Codes</font>
<br>
<br><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font></table>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">&gt; &gt; &gt; --- AHS ---<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Next question: if an AHS is present in a PDU allowing it, but<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; the target does not know what to do with it, should the target reject<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; the PDU or ignore the AHS?<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Such a target is broken (if an AHS is allowed, the target has to<br>
&gt; &gt; expect that it might be present and be prepared to do whatever<br>
&gt; &gt; is necessary), and should be fixed.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Let me give a better example: Section 9.2.2.1, AHSType, lists &quot;60- 63<br>
&gt; Non-iSCSI extensions&quot;. &nbsp;What should the target do if it comes <br>
&gt; across an AHS with an AHSType of 60? &nbsp;Is there some other document <br>
&gt; specifying what these codes mean?<br>
<br>
We don't say anything useful at the moment. &nbsp;Is there any good reason<br>
not to rip this out and add 60-63 to the Reserved range (currently<br>
3-59)?<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
--David<br>
</font>
<br>
<br>
--=_alternative 005A6463C2256C25_=--


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Fri Aug 30 12:56:40 2002
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To: <tonyb@cybernetics.com>
Cc: Black_David@emc.com, ips@ece.cmu.edu, owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: RE: Several iSCSI protocol questions
X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.9  November 16, 2001
From: "Julian Satran" <Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com>
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Fields that appear in every PDU are not described repeatedly - Julo




"Tony Battersby" <tonyb@cybernetics.com>
Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
30/08/02 17:34
Please respond to tonyb

 
        To:     <Black_David@emc.com>, <ips@ece.cmu.edu>
        cc: 
        Subject:        RE: Several iSCSI protocol questions

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Black_David@emc.com [mailto:Black_David@emc.com]
> Sent: Friday, August 30, 2002 10:05 AM
> To: tonyb@cybernetics.com; ips@ece.cmu.edu
> Subject: RE: Several iSCSI protocol questions

> > Does the above imply that the initiator must (or can?) use the same
> > Initiator Task Tag for all SCSI commands in a given linked
> set of SCSI
> > commands?  If so, then a given Initiator Task Tag may not
> > uniquely identify a particular SCSI command.
>
> Yes, but the inference is incorrect.  SAM-2 defines "linked
> command" as:
>
>   3.1.58 linked command: One in a series of SCSI commands
> processed by a
>   single task that collectively make up a discrete I/O
> operation. In such
>   a series, each command is represented by the same I_T_L_x
> nexus, and all,
>   except the last, have the LINK bit in the CDB CONTROL byte
> set to one.
>
> Linked commands are always sequential, not concurrent, as
> they use the same
> I_T_L_x nexus - see the example in Section 5.7.2 of SAM-2.
> Only one command
> from a set of linked commands is active at any point in time,
> and hence the
> ITT for the linked commands uniquely identifies it.  Linked
> commands are
> rarely used in practice, FWIW.
>


Thanks.  I realized this after I sent the message.


> > --- Task Management Functions ---
> >
> > Section 9.5.1, "For all these functions, the Task
> Management function
> > response MUST be returned as detailed in Section 9.6 Task Management
> > Function Response."  Does this mean that a Task Management
> Function with
> > one of the listed functions cannot be rejected with a Reject PDU
> > if some other field of the PDU has a value that is a protocol error?
>
> It shouldn't - if there's a protocol error, the Task
> Management function
> cannot be processed.


Ok.


> > Since the Task Management Function itself has a CmdSN and
> > valid LUN, can one
> > Task Management Function affect (abort) another?
>
> No, SCSI task management functions operate on *SCSI* tasks,
> not *iSCSI*
> tasks, and a task management function is not a *SCSI* task -
> see SAM-2.


This contradicts the text in Section 9.5.1: "The Task Management functions
provide an initiator with a way to explicitly control the execution of one
or more Tasks (SCSI and iSCSI tasks)."  Your interpretation makes more 
sense
to me, however.


> > If not, then what is the
> > appropriate Task Management Function Response for an ABORT TASK that
> > attempts to operate on another Task Management Function?
>
> That can't happen.  The only task management function that
> could possibly
> attempt "to operate on another Task Management Function" is
> ABORT TASK, but
> it identifies the task to be aborted by an Initiator Task
> Tag, something
> that Task Management Functions *do not* have - see Section
> 9.5 of the iSCSI
> draft.


I am looking at Section 9.5.  I see "Initiator Task Tag" in the table
showing the PDU format, although it is not mentioned in the text.  Another
typo?


> > --- AHS ---
> > Next question: if an AHS is present in a PDU allowing it, but
> > the target does not know what to do with it, should the
> target reject
> > the PDU or ignore the AHS?
>
> Such a target is broken (if an AHS is allowed, the target has to
> expect that it might be present and be prepared to do whatever
> is necessary), and should be fixed.


Let me give a better example: Section 9.2.2.1, AHSType, lists "60- 63
Non-iSCSI extensions".  What should the target do if it comes across an 
AHS
with an AHSType of 60?  Is there some other document specifying what these
codes mean?


> > --- Reject ---
> >
> > If a target decides to reject a non-immediate command when it
> > can determine
> > the CmdSN of the command being rejected, should the target
> > return the reject
> > response immediately, or should the target defer the reject
> > response until
> > the command being rejected would have been delivered for
> > execution based on
> > its CmdSN?
>
> Returning the Reject earlier will probably be appreciated by the
> initiator.  There's no requirement to wait.


Ok.


> > If the CmdSN of the command being rejected is
> > outside the valid
> > command window, should the target ignore the PDU and not
> > return the Reject
> > response, or should the target return the Reject response
> > anyway?
>
> Ignore it.  Section 2.2.2.1 says:
>
>   For non-immediate commands, the CmdSN field can take any value from
>   ExpCmdSN to MaxCmdSN inclusive. The target MUST silently ignore any
>   non-immediate command outside of this range or non-immediate dupli-
>   cates within the range.
>
> "silently" is the key word in this text.


Ok.  The exception of course is if the opcode field is unrecognized, the
target can't be sure if the CmdSN is present in the normal place or not.


> > --- Logout ---
> >
> > Section 9.14, "A Logout for a CID may be performed on a
> > different transport
> > connection when the TCP connection for the CID has already
> > been terminated."
> > Was this intended to imply that a Logout for a CID MUST be
> > performed on the
> > same transport connection when the TCP connection for the CID
> > has _not_
> > already been terminated?
>
> Not exactly.  The problem is that one can get into weird situations
> in which the two ends of a TCP connection have different views on
> whether it's been terminated.  If the TCP connection is alive,
> Logout for that connection should be sent on that connection.
>


Makes sense.


> Thanks,
> --David
> ---------------------------------------------------
> David L. Black, Senior Technologist
> EMC Corporation, 42 South St., Hopkinton, MA  01748
> +1 (508) 249-6449            FAX: +1 (508) 497-8018
> black_david@emc.com       Mobile: +1 (978) 394-7754
> ---------------------------------------------------
>




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<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Fields that appear in every PDU are not described repeatedly - Julo</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>&quot;Tony Battersby&quot; &lt;tonyb@cybernetics.com&gt;</b></font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu</font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">30/08/02 17:34</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Please respond to tonyb</font>
<br>
<td><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&lt;Black_David@emc.com&gt;, &lt;ips@ece.cmu.edu&gt;</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;RE: Several iSCSI protocol questions</font>
<br>
<br><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font></table>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: Black_David@emc.com [mailto:Black_David@emc.com]<br>
&gt; Sent: Friday, August 30, 2002 10:05 AM<br>
&gt; To: tonyb@cybernetics.com; ips@ece.cmu.edu<br>
&gt; Subject: RE: Several iSCSI protocol questions<br>
<br>
&gt; &gt; Does the above imply that the initiator must (or can?) use the same<br>
&gt; &gt; Initiator Task Tag for all SCSI commands in a given linked<br>
&gt; set of SCSI<br>
&gt; &gt; commands? &nbsp;If so, then a given Initiator Task Tag may not<br>
&gt; &gt; uniquely identify a particular SCSI command.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Yes, but the inference is incorrect. &nbsp;SAM-2 defines &quot;linked<br>
&gt; command&quot; as:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &nbsp; 3.1.58 linked command: One in a series of SCSI commands<br>
&gt; processed by a<br>
&gt; &nbsp; single task that collectively make up a discrete I/O<br>
&gt; operation. In such<br>
&gt; &nbsp; a series, each command is represented by the same I_T_L_x<br>
&gt; nexus, and all,<br>
&gt; &nbsp; except the last, have the LINK bit in the CDB CONTROL byte<br>
&gt; set to one.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Linked commands are always sequential, not concurrent, as<br>
&gt; they use the same<br>
&gt; I_T_L_x nexus - see the example in Section 5.7.2 of SAM-2.<br>
&gt; Only one command<br>
&gt; from a set of linked commands is active at any point in time,<br>
&gt; and hence the<br>
&gt; ITT for the linked commands uniquely identifies it. &nbsp;Linked<br>
&gt; commands are<br>
&gt; rarely used in practice, FWIW.<br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
<br>
Thanks. &nbsp;I realized this after I sent the message.<br>
<br>
<br>
&gt; &gt; --- Task Management Functions ---<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Section 9.5.1, &quot;For all these functions, the Task<br>
&gt; Management function<br>
&gt; &gt; response MUST be returned as detailed in Section 9.6 Task Management<br>
&gt; &gt; Function Response.&quot; &nbsp;Does this mean that a Task Management<br>
&gt; Function with<br>
&gt; &gt; one of the listed functions cannot be rejected with a Reject PDU<br>
&gt; &gt; if some other field of the PDU has a value that is a protocol error?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; It shouldn't - if there's a protocol error, the Task<br>
&gt; Management function<br>
&gt; cannot be processed.<br>
<br>
<br>
Ok.<br>
<br>
<br>
&gt; &gt; Since the Task Management Function itself has a CmdSN and<br>
&gt; &gt; valid LUN, can one<br>
&gt; &gt; Task Management Function affect (abort) another?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; No, SCSI task management functions operate on *SCSI* tasks,<br>
&gt; not *iSCSI*<br>
&gt; tasks, and a task management function is not a *SCSI* task -<br>
&gt; see SAM-2.<br>
<br>
<br>
This contradicts the text in Section 9.5.1: &quot;The Task Management functions<br>
provide an initiator with a way to explicitly control the execution of one<br>
or more Tasks (SCSI and iSCSI tasks).&quot; &nbsp;Your interpretation makes more sense<br>
to me, however.<br>
<br>
<br>
&gt; &gt; If not, then what is the<br>
&gt; &gt; appropriate Task Management Function Response for an ABORT TASK that<br>
&gt; &gt; attempts to operate on another Task Management Function?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; That can't happen. &nbsp;The only task management function that<br>
&gt; could possibly<br>
&gt; attempt &quot;to operate on another Task Management Function&quot; is<br>
&gt; ABORT TASK, but<br>
&gt; it identifies the task to be aborted by an Initiator Task<br>
&gt; Tag, something<br>
&gt; that Task Management Functions *do not* have - see Section<br>
&gt; 9.5 of the iSCSI<br>
&gt; draft.<br>
</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New"><br>
I am looking at Section 9.5. &nbsp;I see &quot;Initiator Task Tag&quot; in the table<br>
showing the PDU format, although it is not mentioned in the text. &nbsp;Another<br>
typo?<br>
<br>
<br>
&gt; &gt; --- AHS ---<br>
&gt; &gt; Next question: if an AHS is present in a PDU allowing it, but<br>
&gt; &gt; the target does not know what to do with it, should the<br>
&gt; target reject<br>
&gt; &gt; the PDU or ignore the AHS?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Such a target is broken (if an AHS is allowed, the target has to<br>
&gt; expect that it might be present and be prepared to do whatever<br>
&gt; is necessary), and should be fixed.<br>
<br>
<br>
Let me give a better example: Section 9.2.2.1, AHSType, lists &quot;60- 63<br>
Non-iSCSI extensions&quot;. &nbsp;What should the target do if it comes across an AHS<br>
with an AHSType of 60? &nbsp;Is there some other document specifying what these<br>
codes mean?<br>
<br>
<br>
&gt; &gt; --- Reject ---<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; If a target decides to reject a non-immediate command when it<br>
&gt; &gt; can determine<br>
&gt; &gt; the CmdSN of the command being rejected, should the target<br>
&gt; &gt; return the reject<br>
&gt; &gt; response immediately, or should the target defer the reject<br>
&gt; &gt; response until<br>
&gt; &gt; the command being rejected would have been delivered for<br>
&gt; &gt; execution based on<br>
&gt; &gt; its CmdSN?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Returning the Reject earlier will probably be appreciated by the<br>
&gt; initiator. &nbsp;There's no requirement to wait.<br>
<br>
<br>
Ok.<br>
<br>
<br>
&gt; &gt; If the CmdSN of the command being rejected is<br>
&gt; &gt; outside the valid<br>
&gt; &gt; command window, should the target ignore the PDU and not<br>
&gt; &gt; return the Reject<br>
&gt; &gt; response, or should the target return the Reject response<br>
&gt; &gt; anyway?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Ignore it. &nbsp;Section 2.2.2.1 says:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &nbsp; For non-immediate commands, the CmdSN field can take any value from<br>
&gt; &nbsp; ExpCmdSN to MaxCmdSN inclusive. The target MUST silently ignore any<br>
&gt; &nbsp; non-immediate command outside of this range or non-immediate dupli-<br>
&gt; &nbsp; cates within the range.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &quot;silently&quot; is the key word in this text.<br>
<br>
<br>
Ok. &nbsp;The exception of course is if the opcode field is unrecognized, the<br>
target can't be sure if the CmdSN is present in the normal place or not.<br>
<br>
<br>
&gt; &gt; --- Logout ---<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Section 9.14, &quot;A Logout for a CID may be performed on a<br>
&gt; &gt; different transport<br>
&gt; &gt; connection when the TCP connection for the CID has already<br>
&gt; &gt; been terminated.&quot;<br>
&gt; &gt; Was this intended to imply that a Logout for a CID MUST be<br>
&gt; &gt; performed on the<br>
&gt; &gt; same transport connection when the TCP connection for the CID<br>
&gt; &gt; has _not_<br>
&gt; &gt; already been terminated?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Not exactly. &nbsp;The problem is that one can get into weird situations<br>
&gt; in which the two ends of a TCP connection have different views on<br>
&gt; whether it's been terminated. &nbsp;If the TCP connection is alive,<br>
&gt; Logout for that connection should be sent on that connection.<br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
<br>
Makes sense.<br>
<br>
<br>
&gt; Thanks,<br>
&gt; --David<br>
&gt; ---------------------------------------------------<br>
&gt; David L. Black, Senior Technologist<br>
&gt; EMC Corporation, 42 South St., Hopkinton, MA &nbsp;01748<br>
&gt; +1 (508) 249-6449 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;FAX: +1 (508) 497-8018<br>
&gt; black_david@emc.com &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Mobile: +1 (978) 394-7754<br>
&gt; ---------------------------------------------------<br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
</font>
<br>
<br>
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Subject: Re: Several iSCSI protocol questions
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Tony answers in text - Julo




"Tony Battersby" <tonyb@cybernetics.com>
Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
30/08/02 16:01
Please respond to tonyb

 
        To:     <ips@ece.cmu.edu>
        cc: 
        Subject:        Several iSCSI protocol questions

 

Hi,

I have a few general iSCSI protocol questions.  All questions are based on
Draft 15.

(Sorry if this message is a duplicate.  I sent it once before but I don't
think it got through.)

--- Initiator Task Tag uniqueness ---

Section 2.1, "A SCSI task is a SCSI command or possibly a linked set of 
SCSI
commands."

Section 2.2.2.1, "Some iSCSI tasks are SCSI tasks, and many SCSI 
activities
are related to a SCSI task ([SAM2]). In all cases, the task is identified 
by
the Initiator Task Tag for the life of the task."

Does the above imply that the initiator must (or can?) use the same
Initiator Task Tag for all SCSI commands in a given linked set of SCSI
commands?  If so, then a given Initiator Task Tag may not uniquely 
identify
a particular SCSI command.  In this case, if the target receives an
unsolicited data PDU, it would have to rely on the requirement that
unsolicited data PDUs must be sent in the same order as the commands were
sent in order to identify the SCSI command associated with the unsolicited
data PDU.  My question: what is to prevent the target from associating an
unsolicited data PDU with the wrong command if the target discarded one of
the linked command PDUs in the task due to a digest error?
+++++

Linked commands are executed sequentially (that is the only purpose of 
linking) as long as
the "cahin" is not broken by an exception"

++++
--- Task Management Functions ---

Section 9.5.1, "For all these functions, the Task Management function
response MUST be returned as detailed in Section 9.6 Task Management
Function Response."  Does this mean that a Task Management Function with 
one
of the listed functions cannot be rejected with a Reject PDU if some other
field of the PDU has a value that is a protocol error?

If I read the spec correctly, the ABORT TASK, ABORT TASK SET, CLEAR TASK
SET, and LOGICAL UNIT RESET functions operate on iSCSI tasks that:

1) Have a CmdSN that is lower than the CmdSN of the Task Management
Function, AND
2) Have a valid LUN that is equal to the LUN of the Task Management 
Function

Since the Task Management Function itself has a CmdSN and valid LUN, can 
one
Task Management Function affect (abort) another?  If not, then what is the
appropriate Task Management Function Response for an ABORT TASK that
attempts to operate on another Task Management Function?

+++ Task management are SCSI functions not iSCSI functions.
In theory a Task Management request may refer to another task management 
request in iSCSI (a side effect of ITT being used for everything).
SAM and  SPC do not talk about this as Task Management are not queued to 
the device but are executed synchronously by the Task Manager. Some 
protocols (SPI, FCP-2) limit the effect of some (e.g., abort task) by 
implementing them so that only one can be issued (use a link level 
function).

The best way to handle this is to avoid queueing while a Task Management 
is active (act synchronously on it).
Sometimes this feature can become useful as the "clear functions" will 
clear the TM requests too.


++++

--- AHS ---

Section 9.2.1.5 TotalAHSLength:

"Total length of all AHS header segments in four byte words including
padding, if any.

The TotalAHSLength is used only in PDUs that have an AHS and MUST be 0 in
all other PDUs."

For the first sentence, I recommend changing the wording to emphasize the
fact that the length is not in bytes (something like "... segments in 
units
of four byte words ..." with an example given).  I missed this fact the
first time I read it.

+++ I will add units +++

The second sentence is confusing since it is not spelled out which PDUs 
have
an AHS.  Is this sentence specifying a requirement that some pre-defined
list of PDUs that do not have an AHS MUST have TotalAHSLength equal to 0, 
or
is the sentence simply stating that a nonzero TotalAHSLength implies that 
an
AHS is present?  In the former case, the list of PDUs not allowed to have 
an
AHS can be determined by looking elsewhere in the spec (Task Management
Function Request, Task Management Function Response, R2T, Logout Request,
Logout Response).

+++ the sentence is just stating that this field is always reffering to 
AHS and will not be used for something else That enables simpler handling 
of the length fields. Unlike reserved it will be USED by receivers!+++

Next question: if an AHS is present in a PDU allowing it, but the target
does not know what to do with it, should the target reject the PDU or 
ignore
the AHS?  I noticed that some older drafts had a bit that indicated which 
to
do, but the bit was dropped in more recent drafts.  If the target should
reject the PDU, what Reject reason should be used?

+++ AHSs as defined today MUST be understood. You will have to reject with 
a Function Response of Function Rejected (AHS is used for SCSI commands). 
You may also use a Reject with protocol error if you get AHS where you 
should not have one

--- Reject ---

If a target decides to reject a non-immediate command when it can 
determine
the CmdSN of the command being rejected, should the target return the 
reject
response immediately, or should the target defer the reject response until
the command being rejected would have been delivered for execution based 
on
its CmdSN? 
+++ either way is fine although I suspect that doing the first may cause 
trouble with some initiators +++

 If the CmdSN of the command being rejected is outside the valid
command window, should the target ignore the PDU and not return the Reject
response, or should the target return the Reject response anyway?  My 
guess
is that any of these options are valid, but I want to make sure.  In any
case, it seems that the initiator needs to be prepared to receive multiple
Reject PDUs from the target for a single command if the initiator
re-transmitted the command due to a timeout before receiving (or noticing)
the reject.
+++ CmdSN outside window - results in ignore ++++
--- Logout ---

Section 9.14, "A Logout for a CID may be performed on a different 
transport
connection when the TCP connection for the CID has already been 
terminated."
Was this intended to imply that a Logout for a CID MUST be performed on 
the
same transport connection when the TCP connection for the CID has _not_
already been terminated?

+++ yes - you should attempt to do it on existing connection if you can.
However some caution - this is not a condition a target can chec - it can 
see
a connection that is dead on the other end +++

Thanks,
Anthony J. Battersby
Cybernetics




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<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Tony answers in text - Julo</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>&quot;Tony Battersby&quot; &lt;tonyb@cybernetics.com&gt;</b></font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu</font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">30/08/02 16:01</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Please respond to tonyb</font>
<br>
<td><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&lt;ips@ece.cmu.edu&gt;</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Several iSCSI protocol questions</font>
<br>
<br><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font></table>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">Hi,<br>
<br>
I have a few general iSCSI protocol questions. &nbsp;All questions are based on<br>
Draft 15.<br>
<br>
(Sorry if this message is a duplicate. &nbsp;I sent it once before but I don't<br>
think it got through.)<br>
<br>
--- Initiator Task Tag uniqueness ---<br>
<br>
Section 2.1, &quot;A SCSI task is a SCSI command or possibly a linked set of SCSI<br>
commands.&quot;<br>
<br>
Section 2.2.2.1, &quot;Some iSCSI tasks are SCSI tasks, and many SCSI activities<br>
are related to a SCSI task ([SAM2]). In all cases, the task is identified by<br>
the Initiator Task Tag for the life of the task.&quot;<br>
<br>
Does the above imply that the initiator must (or can?) use the same<br>
Initiator Task Tag for all SCSI commands in a given linked set of SCSI<br>
commands? &nbsp;If so, then a given Initiator Task Tag may not uniquely identify<br>
a particular SCSI command. &nbsp;In this case, if the target receives an<br>
unsolicited data PDU, it would have to rely on the requirement that<br>
unsolicited data PDUs must be sent in the same order as the commands were<br>
sent in order to identify the SCSI command associated with the unsolicited<br>
data PDU. &nbsp;My question: what is to prevent the target from associating an<br>
unsolicited data PDU with the wrong command if the target discarded one of<br>
the linked command PDUs in the task due to a digest error?<br>
+++++</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">Linked commands are executed sequentially (that is the only purpose of linking) as long as</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">the &quot;cahin&quot; is not broken by an exception&quot;</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">++++<br>
--- Task Management Functions ---<br>
<br>
Section 9.5.1, &quot;For all these functions, the Task Management function<br>
response MUST be returned as detailed in Section 9.6 Task Management<br>
Function Response.&quot; &nbsp;Does this mean that a Task Management Function with one<br>
of the listed functions cannot be rejected with a Reject PDU if some other<br>
field of the PDU has a value that is a protocol error?<br>
<br>
If I read the spec correctly, the ABORT TASK, ABORT TASK SET, CLEAR TASK<br>
SET, and LOGICAL UNIT RESET functions operate on iSCSI tasks that:<br>
<br>
1) Have a CmdSN that is lower than the CmdSN of the Task Management<br>
Function, AND<br>
2) Have a valid LUN that is equal to the LUN of the Task Management Function<br>
<br>
Since the Task Management Function itself has a CmdSN and valid LUN, can one<br>
Task Management Function affect (abort) another? &nbsp;If not, then what is the<br>
appropriate Task Management Function Response for an ABORT TASK that<br>
attempts to operate on another Task Management Function?<br>
</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">+++ Task management are SCSI functions not iSCSI functions.</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">In theory a Task Management request may refer to another task management request in iSCSI (a side effect of ITT being used for everything).</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">SAM and &nbsp;SPC do not talk about this as Task Management are not queued to the device but are executed synchronously by the Task Manager. Some protocols (SPI, FCP-2) limit the effect of some (e.g., abort task) by implementing them so that only one can be issued (use a link level function).</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">The best way to handle this is to avoid queueing while a Task Management is active (act synchronously on it).</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">Sometimes this feature can become useful as the &quot;clear functions&quot; will clear the TM requests too.</font>
<br>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">++++</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New"><br>
--- AHS ---<br>
<br>
Section 9.2.1.5 TotalAHSLength:<br>
<br>
&quot;Total length of all AHS header segments in four byte words including<br>
padding, if any.<br>
<br>
The TotalAHSLength is used only in PDUs that have an AHS and MUST be 0 in<br>
all other PDUs.&quot;<br>
<br>
For the first sentence, I recommend changing the wording to emphasize the<br>
fact that the length is not in bytes (something like &quot;... segments in units<br>
of four byte words ...&quot; with an example given). &nbsp;I missed this fact the<br>
first time I read it.<br>
</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">+++ I will add units +++</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New"><br>
The second sentence is confusing since it is not spelled out which PDUs have<br>
an AHS. &nbsp;Is this sentence specifying a requirement that some pre-defined<br>
list of PDUs that do not have an AHS MUST have TotalAHSLength equal to 0, or<br>
is the sentence simply stating that a nonzero TotalAHSLength implies that an<br>
AHS is present? &nbsp;In the former case, the list of PDUs not allowed to have an<br>
AHS can be determined by looking elsewhere in the spec (Task Management<br>
Function Request, Task Management Function Response, R2T, Logout Request,<br>
Logout Response).<br>
</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">+++ the sentence is just stating that this field is always reffering to AHS and will not be used for something else That enables simpler handling of the length fields. Unlike reserved it will be USED by receivers!+++</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New"><br>
Next question: if an AHS is present in a PDU allowing it, but the target<br>
does not know what to do with it, should the target reject the PDU or ignore<br>
the AHS? &nbsp;I noticed that some older drafts had a bit that indicated which to<br>
do, but the bit was dropped in more recent drafts. &nbsp;If the target should</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">reject the PDU, what Reject reason should be used?</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">+++ AHSs as defined today MUST be understood. You will have to reject with a Function Response of Function Rejected (AHS is used for SCSI commands). You may also use a Reject with protocol error if you get AHS where you should not have one<br>
<br>
--- Reject ---<br>
<br>
If a target decides to reject a non-immediate command when it can determine<br>
the CmdSN of the command being rejected, should the target return the reject<br>
response immediately, or should the target defer the reject response until<br>
the command being rejected would have been delivered for execution based on<br>
its CmdSN? </font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">+++ either way is fine although I suspect that doing the first may cause trouble with some initiators +++</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">&nbsp;If the CmdSN of the command being rejected is outside the valid<br>
command window, should the target ignore the PDU and not return the Reject<br>
response, or should the target return the Reject response anyway? &nbsp;My guess<br>
is that any of these options are valid, but I want to make sure. &nbsp;In any<br>
case, it seems that the initiator needs to be prepared to receive multiple<br>
Reject PDUs from the target for a single command if the initiator<br>
re-transmitted the command due to a timeout before receiving (or noticing)<br>
the reject.<br>
+++ CmdSN outside window - results in ignore ++++<br>
--- Logout ---<br>
<br>
Section 9.14, &quot;A Logout for a CID may be performed on a different transport<br>
connection when the TCP connection for the CID has already been terminated.&quot;<br>
Was this intended to imply that a Logout for a CID MUST be performed on the<br>
same transport connection when the TCP connection for the CID has _not_<br>
already been terminated?<br>
</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">+++ yes - you should attempt to do it on existing connection if you can.</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">However some caution - this is not a condition a target can chec - it can see</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">a connection that is dead on the other end +++<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
Anthony J. Battersby<br>
Cybernetics<br>
<br>
</font>
<br>
<br>
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Subject: RE: Several iSCSI protocol questions
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I already answered to this.

This is a result of using ITT for everything.

We considered it several times (adding a reject code) but the we thought 
that
the "good side-effects" outweight the bad (e.g., you can do a TASK SET 
CLEANUP including an TASK ABORT) and it is not worth adding reject code 
(mainly not worth testing for it).  I fail to see a scenario where it can 
do unintentional harm.

Julo




Black_David@emc.com
Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
30/08/02 17:58

 
        To:     tonyb@cybernetics.com, ips@ece.cmu.edu
        cc: 
        Subject:        RE: Several iSCSI protocol questions

 

> > > Since the Task Management Function itself has a CmdSN and
> > > valid LUN, can one
> > > Task Management Function affect (abort) another?
> >
> > No, SCSI task management functions operate on *SCSI* tasks, not 
*iSCSI*
> > tasks, and a task management function is not a *SCSI* task - see 
SAM-2.
> 
> This contradicts the text in Section 9.5.1: "The Task Management 
functions
> provide an initiator with a way to explicitly control the execution of 
one
> or more Tasks (SCSI and iSCSI tasks)."  Your interpretation makes more
sense
> to me, however.

And there's more text further down in 9.5.1 that seems to imply that
one ought to be able to abort a Task Management Function.

  All these functions apply to the referenced tasks regard-
  less of whether they are proper SCSI tasks or tagged iSCSI opera-
  tions.

I think you've caught something we need to fix ...

> > > If not, then what is the
> > > appropriate Task Management Function Response for an ABORT TASK that
> > > attempts to operate on another Task Management Function?
> >
> > That can't happen.  The only task management function that could
possibly
> > attempt "to operate on another Task Management Function" is ABORT 
TASK,
but
> > it identifies the task to be aborted by an Initiator Task Tag, 
something
> > that Task Management Functions *do not* have - see Section
> > 9.5 of the iSCSI draft.
> 
> I am looking at Section 9.5.  I see "Initiator Task Tag" in the table
> showing the PDU format, although it is not mentioned in the 
> text.  Another typo?

My mistake - I think we have some text cleanup to do, as SAM-2 definitely
considers task management functions not to be tasks, thus avoiding issues
of what happens when a task management function is applied to a task
management function - I believe iSCSI needs to follow this route.  Julian?

Thanks,
--David
---------------------------------------------------
David L. Black, Senior Technologist
EMC Corporation, 42 South St., Hopkinton, MA  01748
+1 (508) 249-6449            FAX: +1 (508) 497-8018
black_david@emc.com       Mobile: +1 (978) 394-7754
---------------------------------------------------



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<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">I already answered to this.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">This is a result of using ITT for everything.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">We considered it several times (adding a reject code) but the we thought that</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">the &quot;good side-effects&quot; outweight the bad (e.g., you can do a TASK SET CLEANUP including an TASK ABORT) and it is not worth adding reject code (mainly not worth testing for it). &nbsp;I fail to see a scenario where it can do unintentional harm.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Julo</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>Black_David@emc.com</b></font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu</font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">30/08/02 17:58</font>
<br>
<td><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;tonyb@cybernetics.com, ips@ece.cmu.edu</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;RE: Several iSCSI protocol questions</font>
<br>
<br><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font></table>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">&gt; &gt; &gt; Since the Task Management Function itself has a CmdSN and<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; valid LUN, can one<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; Task Management Function affect (abort) another?<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; No, SCSI task management functions operate on *SCSI* tasks, not *iSCSI*<br>
&gt; &gt; tasks, and a task management function is not a *SCSI* task - see SAM-2.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; This contradicts the text in Section 9.5.1: &quot;The Task Management functions<br>
&gt; provide an initiator with a way to explicitly control the execution of one<br>
&gt; or more Tasks (SCSI and iSCSI tasks).&quot; &nbsp;Your interpretation makes more<br>
sense<br>
&gt; to me, however.<br>
<br>
And there's more text further down in 9.5.1 that seems to imply that<br>
one ought to be able to abort a Task Management Function.<br>
<br>
 &nbsp;All these functions apply to the referenced tasks regard-<br>
 &nbsp;less of whether they are proper SCSI tasks or tagged iSCSI opera-<br>
 &nbsp;tions.<br>
<br>
I think you've caught something we need to fix ...<br>
<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; If not, then what is the<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; appropriate Task Management Function Response for an ABORT TASK that<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; attempts to operate on another Task Management Function?<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; That can't happen. &nbsp;The only task management function that could<br>
possibly<br>
&gt; &gt; attempt &quot;to operate on another Task Management Function&quot; is ABORT TASK,<br>
but<br>
&gt; &gt; it identifies the task to be aborted by an Initiator Task Tag, something<br>
&gt; &gt; that Task Management Functions *do not* have - see Section<br>
&gt; &gt; 9.5 of the iSCSI draft.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; I am looking at Section 9.5. &nbsp;I see &quot;Initiator Task Tag&quot; in the table<br>
&gt; showing the PDU format, although it is not mentioned in the <br>
&gt; text. &nbsp;Another typo?<br>
<br>
My mistake - I think we have some text cleanup to do, as SAM-2 definitely<br>
considers task management functions not to be tasks, thus avoiding issues<br>
of what happens when a task management function is applied to a task<br>
management function - I believe iSCSI needs to follow this route. &nbsp;Julian?<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
--David<br>
---------------------------------------------------<br>
David L. Black, Senior Technologist<br>
EMC Corporation, 42 South St., Hopkinton, MA &nbsp;01748<br>
+1 (508) 249-6449 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;FAX: +1 (508) 497-8018<br>
black_david@emc.com &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Mobile: +1 (978) 394-7754<br>
---------------------------------------------------<br>
</font>
<br>
<br>
--=_alternative 005AF798C2256C25_=--


From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Fri Aug 30 13:45:39 2002
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From: "Tony Battersby" <tonyb@cybernetics.com>
To: <ips@ece.cmu.edu>
Subject: iSCSI: aborting an immediate command with ABORT TASK
Date:  Fri, 30 Aug 2002 13:16:36 -0400
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It seems that an initiator attempting to abort an immediate command may
inadvertently cause the next non-immediate command to be aborted instead.
For example,

Initiator sends an immediate command "A" with CmdSN 10.
Initiator sends a non-immediate command "B" with CmdSN 10.
Initiator sends an immediate ABORT TASK command "C" with CmdSN 11 to abort
command "A" (RefCmdSN == 10, Referenced Task Tag == Initiator Task Tag of
"A").

If the target either:
1) Receives "C" before "A" or "B", OR
2) Receives "C" before "B" but after executing and freeing "A",

...then the target will not have a matching task for the abort in its queue,
and will consider CmdSN 10 received because it is inside the valid CmdSN
window.  If the target then receives "B", it will silently ignore the
command because it is outside the valid CmdSN window.  This is obviously not
what the initiator was trying to accomplish.

This problem could be solved by adding a flag to the PDU for the ABORT TASK
command to indicate if the task to be aborted is immediate or non-immediate.
If the target does not have a matching task and the RefCmdSN is inside the
valid command window, then the target should consider the CmdSN received
only if the flag indicates that the task to be aborted is non-immediate.

-----------------------

One other thing: for draft 16, I recommend that the the following phrase:
"... (i.e., with CmdSN not higher than the task management command CmdSN)
..."
in section 9.5.1 be changed to:
"... (i.e., with CmdSN lower than the task management command CmdSN) ...".
This is for consistency with another sentence earlier in the same paragraph.


Anthony J. Battersby
Cybernetics



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--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the IP Storage Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: Definitions of Managed Objects For iFCP
	Author(s)	: K. Gibbons, C. Monia, J. Tseng, F. Travostino
	Filename	: draft-ietf-ips-ifcp-mib-02.txt
	Pages		: 23
	Date		: 2002-8-29
	
This memo defines a portion of the Management Information Base
(MIB) for use with network management protocols in the Internet
community.  In particular, it defines a basic set of managed
objects for SNMP-based monitoring and management of the Internet
Fibre Channel Protocol (iFCP).
This memo specifies a MIB module in a manner that is compliant to
the SMIv2.  The set of objects is consistent with the SNMP
framework and existing SNMP standards.
This memo is a product of the IP Storage (IPS) working group
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From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Fri Aug 30 14:25:29 2002
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The authors of the iFCP MIB draft believe it is ready for WG Last Call.  If
you find issues or have questions please let us know.

-- Kevin

-----Original Message-----
From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org [mailto:Internet-Drafts@ietf.org]
Sent: Friday, August 30, 2002 4:50 AM
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ips-ifcp-mib-02.txt


A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
directories.
This draft is a work item of the IP Storage Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: Definitions of Managed Objects For iFCP
	Author(s)	: K. Gibbons, C. Monia, J. Tseng, F. Travostino
	Filename	: draft-ietf-ips-ifcp-mib-02.txt
	Pages		: 23
	Date		: 2002-8-29
	
This memo defines a portion of the Management Information Base
(MIB) for use with network management protocols in the Internet
community.  In particular, it defines a basic set of managed
objects for SNMP-based monitoring and management of the Internet
Fibre Channel Protocol (iFCP).
This memo specifies a MIB module in a manner that is compliant to
the SMIv2.  The set of objects is consistent with the SNMP
framework and existing SNMP standards.
This memo is a product of the IP Storage (IPS) working group
within the Internet Engineering Task Force.  Comments are
solicited and should be addressed to the working group's mailing
list at ips@ece.cmu.edu and/or the authors.

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
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To: <tonyb@cybernetics.com>
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Subject: Re: iSCSI: aborting an immediate command with ABORT TASK
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From: "Julian Satran" <Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com>
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Tony,

As it was already pointed out CmSN is a SECONDARY identifier - the primary 
being the Referenced Task Tag.
I was introduced to simplify handling holes (commands discarded or 
arriving late).
In your example A and B have different ITT or one of them gets bumped.

Julo





"Tony Battersby" <tonyb@cybernetics.com>
Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
30/08/02 20:16
Please respond to tonyb

 
        To:     <ips@ece.cmu.edu>
        cc: 
        Subject:        iSCSI: aborting an immediate command with ABORT TASK

 

It seems that an initiator attempting to abort an immediate command may
inadvertently cause the next non-immediate command to be aborted instead.
For example,

Initiator sends an immediate command "A" with CmdSN 10.
Initiator sends a non-immediate command "B" with CmdSN 10.
Initiator sends an immediate ABORT TASK command "C" with CmdSN 11 to abort
command "A" (RefCmdSN == 10, Referenced Task Tag == Initiator Task Tag of
"A").

If the target either:
1) Receives "C" before "A" or "B", OR
2) Receives "C" before "B" but after executing and freeing "A",

...then the target will not have a matching task for the abort in its 
queue,
and will consider CmdSN 10 received because it is inside the valid CmdSN
window.  If the target then receives "B", it will silently ignore the
command because it is outside the valid CmdSN window.  This is obviously 
not
what the initiator was trying to accomplish.

This problem could be solved by adding a flag to the PDU for the ABORT 
TASK
command to indicate if the task to be aborted is immediate or 
non-immediate.
If the target does not have a matching task and the RefCmdSN is inside the
valid command window, then the target should consider the CmdSN received
only if the flag indicates that the task to be aborted is non-immediate.

-----------------------

One other thing: for draft 16, I recommend that the the following phrase:
"... (i.e., with CmdSN not higher than the task management command CmdSN)
..."
in section 9.5.1 be changed to:
"... (i.e., with CmdSN lower than the task management command CmdSN) ...".
This is for consistency with another sentence earlier in the same 
paragraph.


Anthony J. Battersby
Cybernetics




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<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Tony,</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">As it was already pointed out CmSN is a SECONDARY identifier - the primary being the Referenced Task Tag.</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">I was introduced to simplify handling holes (commands discarded or arriving late).</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">In your example A and B have different ITT or one of them gets bumped.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Julo</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>&quot;Tony Battersby&quot; &lt;tonyb@cybernetics.com&gt;</b></font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu</font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">30/08/02 20:16</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Please respond to tonyb</font>
<br>
<td><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&lt;ips@ece.cmu.edu&gt;</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;iSCSI: aborting an immediate command with ABORT TASK</font>
<br>
<br><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font></table>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">It seems that an initiator attempting to abort an immediate command may<br>
inadvertently cause the next non-immediate command to be aborted instead.<br>
For example,<br>
<br>
Initiator sends an immediate command &quot;A&quot; with CmdSN 10.<br>
Initiator sends a non-immediate command &quot;B&quot; with CmdSN 10.<br>
Initiator sends an immediate ABORT TASK command &quot;C&quot; with CmdSN 11 to abort<br>
command &quot;A&quot; (RefCmdSN == 10, Referenced Task Tag == Initiator Task Tag of<br>
&quot;A&quot;).<br>
<br>
If the target either:<br>
1) Receives &quot;C&quot; before &quot;A&quot; or &quot;B&quot;, OR<br>
2) Receives &quot;C&quot; before &quot;B&quot; but after executing and freeing &quot;A&quot;,<br>
<br>
...then the target will not have a matching task for the abort in its queue,<br>
and will consider CmdSN 10 received because it is inside the valid CmdSN<br>
window. &nbsp;If the target then receives &quot;B&quot;, it will silently ignore the<br>
command because it is outside the valid CmdSN window. &nbsp;This is obviously not<br>
what the initiator was trying to accomplish.<br>
<br>
This problem could be solved by adding a flag to the PDU for the ABORT TASK<br>
command to indicate if the task to be aborted is immediate or non-immediate.<br>
If the target does not have a matching task and the RefCmdSN is inside the<br>
valid command window, then the target should consider the CmdSN received<br>
only if the flag indicates that the task to be aborted is non-immediate.<br>
<br>
-----------------------<br>
<br>
One other thing: for draft 16, I recommend that the the following phrase:<br>
&quot;... (i.e., with CmdSN not higher than the task management command CmdSN)<br>
...&quot;<br>
in section 9.5.1 be changed to:<br>
&quot;... (i.e., with CmdSN lower than the task management command CmdSN) ...&quot;.<br>
This is for consistency with another sentence earlier in the same paragraph.<br>
<br>
<br>
Anthony J. Battersby<br>
Cybernetics<br>
<br>
</font>
<br>
<br>
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From: "Tony Battersby" <tonyb@cybernetics.com>
To: "'Julian Satran'" <Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com>
Cc: <ips@ece.cmu.edu>
Subject: RE: iSCSI: aborting an immediate command with ABORT TASK
Date:  Fri, 30 Aug 2002 14:29:43 -0400
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In my example, the command with the Initiator Task Tag matching the
Referenced Task Tag is not at the target.  When the target considers the
command with RefCmdSN received, it assumes _incorrectly_ that the command
with RefCmdSN must have Initiator Task Tag == Referenced Task Tag.  That
assumption can be incorrect when immediate commands are used because
multiple commands with different Initiator Task Tags can have the same
CmdSN.  This is just another way of looking at the problem, but the problem
still exists.


  -----Original Message-----
From: Julian Satran [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]
Sent: Friday, August 30, 2002 2:15 PM
To: tonyb@cybernetics.com
Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu; owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: iSCSI: aborting an immediate command with ABORT TASK

Tony,

As it was already pointed out CmSN is a SECONDARY identifier - the primary
being the Referenced Task Tag.
I was introduced to simplify handling holes (commands discarded or arriving
late).
In your example A and B have different ITT or one of them gets bumped.

Julo



     "Tony Battersby" <tonyb@cybernetics.com>
      Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
      30/08/02 20:16
      Please respond to tonyb


              To:        <ips@ece.cmu.edu>
              cc:
              Subject:        iSCSI: aborting an immediate command with
ABORT TASK




It seems that an initiator attempting to abort an immediate command may
inadvertently cause the next non-immediate command to be aborted instead.
For example,

Initiator sends an immediate command "A" with CmdSN 10.
Initiator sends a non-immediate command "B" with CmdSN 10.
Initiator sends an immediate ABORT TASK command "C" with CmdSN 11 to abort
command "A" (RefCmdSN == 10, Referenced Task Tag == Initiator Task Tag of
"A").

If the target either:
1) Receives "C" before "A" or "B", OR
2) Receives "C" before "B" but after executing and freeing "A",

...then the target will not have a matching task for the abort in its queue,
and will consider CmdSN 10 received because it is inside the valid CmdSN
window.  If the target then receives "B", it will silently ignore the
command because it is outside the valid CmdSN window.  This is obviously not
what the initiator was trying to accomplish.

This problem could be solved by adding a flag to the PDU for the ABORT TASK
command to indicate if the task to be aborted is immediate or non-immediate.
If the target does not have a matching task and the RefCmdSN is inside the
valid command window, then the target should consider the CmdSN received
only if the flag indicates that the task to be aborted is non-immediate.

-----------------------

One other thing: for draft 16, I recommend that the the following phrase:
"... (i.e., with CmdSN not higher than the task management command CmdSN)
..."
in section 9.5.1 be changed to:
"... (i.e., with CmdSN lower than the task management command CmdSN) ...".
This is for consistency with another sentence earlier in the same paragraph.


Anthony J. Battersby
Cybernetics





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<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D155322018-30082002>In my =
example, the=20
command with the Initiator Task Tag matching the Referenced Task Tag is =
not at=20
the target.&nbsp; When the target considers the&nbsp;command with =
RefCmdSN=20
received, it assumes _incorrectly_ that the command with RefCmdSN must =
have=20
Initiator Task Tag =3D=3D Referenced Task Tag.&nbsp; That assumption can =

be&nbsp;incorrect&nbsp;when immediate commands are used because multiple =

commands with different Initiator Task Tags can have the same =
CmdSN.&nbsp; This=20
is just another way of looking at the problem,</SPAN></FONT><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
size=3D2><SPAN class=3D155322018-30082002> but the problem still=20
exists.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D155322018-30082002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D155322018-30082002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DTahoma><FONT size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D155322018-30082002><FONT=20
face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff>&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN>-----Original=20
Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Julian Satran=20
[mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, August 30, =
2002 2:15=20
PM<BR><B>To:</B> tonyb@cybernetics.com<BR><B>Cc:</B> ips@ece.cmu.edu;=20
owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: iSCSI: aborting an =
immediate=20
command with ABORT TASK<BR></FONT></FONT><BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif=20
size=3D2>Tony,</FONT> <BR><BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2>As it was =
already=20
pointed out CmSN is a SECONDARY identifier - the primary being the =
Referenced=20
Task Tag.</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2>I was introduced =
to simplify=20
handling holes (commands discarded or arriving late).</FONT> <BR><FONT=20
face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2>In your example A and B have different ITT or =
one of them=20
gets bumped.</FONT> <BR><BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2>Julo</FONT> =

<BR><BR><BR><BR>
<TABLE width=3D"100%">
  <TBODY>
  <TR vAlign=3Dtop>
    <TD>
    <TD><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1><B>"Tony Battersby"=20
      &lt;tonyb@cybernetics.com&gt;</B></FONT> <BR><FONT =
face=3Dsans-serif=20
      size=3D1>Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu</FONT>=20
      <P><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1>30/08/02 20:16</FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
      face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1>Please respond to tonyb</FONT> <BR></P>
    <TD><FONT face=3DArial size=3D1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
</FONT><BR><FONT=20
      face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; To: &nbsp; =
&nbsp;=20
      &nbsp; &nbsp;&lt;ips@ece.cmu.edu&gt;</FONT> <BR><FONT =
face=3Dsans-serif=20
      size=3D1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;</FONT>=20
      <BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
Subject:=20
      &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;iSCSI: aborting an immediate command =
with ABORT=20
      TASK</FONT> <BR><BR><FONT face=3DArial size=3D1>&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;=20
      &nbsp;</FONT></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR><BR><FONT face=3D"Courier =
New" size=3D2>It=20
seems that an initiator attempting to abort an immediate command=20
may<BR>inadvertently cause the next non-immediate command to be aborted=20
instead.<BR>For example,<BR><BR>Initiator sends an immediate command "A" =
with=20
CmdSN 10.<BR>Initiator sends a non-immediate command "B" with CmdSN=20
10.<BR>Initiator sends an immediate ABORT TASK command "C" with CmdSN 11 =
to=20
abort<BR>command "A" (RefCmdSN =3D=3D 10, Referenced Task Tag =3D=3D =
Initiator Task Tag=20
of<BR>"A").<BR><BR>If the target either:<BR>1) Receives "C" before "A" =
or "B",=20
OR<BR>2) Receives "C" before "B" but after executing and freeing=20
"A",<BR><BR>...then the target will not have a matching task for the =
abort in=20
its queue,<BR>and will consider CmdSN 10 received because it is inside =
the valid=20
CmdSN<BR>window. &nbsp;If the target then receives "B", it will silently =
ignore=20
the<BR>command because it is outside the valid CmdSN window. &nbsp;This =
is=20
obviously not<BR>what the initiator was trying to =
accomplish.<BR><BR>This=20
problem could be solved by adding a flag to the PDU for the ABORT=20
TASK<BR>command to indicate if the task to be aborted is immediate or=20
non-immediate.<BR>If the target does not have a matching task and the =
RefCmdSN=20
is inside the<BR>valid command window, then the target should consider =
the CmdSN=20
received<BR>only if the flag indicates that the task to be aborted is=20
non-immediate.<BR><BR>-----------------------<BR><BR>One other thing: =
for draft=20
16, I recommend that the the following phrase:<BR>"... (i.e., with CmdSN =
not=20
higher than the task management command CmdSN)<BR>..."<BR>in section =
9.5.1 be=20
changed to:<BR>"... (i.e., with CmdSN lower than the task management =
command=20
CmdSN) ...".<BR>This is for consistency with another sentence earlier in =
the=20
same paragraph.<BR><BR><BR>Anthony J.=20
Battersby<BR>Cybernetics<BR><BR></FONT><BR><BR></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Fri Aug 30 16:13:29 2002
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From: Bill Studenmund <wrstuden@wasabisystems.com>
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To: Tony Battersby <tonyb@cybernetics.com>
Cc: <Black_David@emc.com>, <ips@ece.cmu.edu>
Subject: RE: Several iSCSI protocol questions
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On Fri, 30 Aug 2002, Tony Battersby wrote:

> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Black_David@emc.com [mailto:Black_David@emc.com]
> > Sent: Friday, August 30, 2002 10:05 AM
> > To: tonyb@cybernetics.com; ips@ece.cmu.edu
> > Subject: RE: Several iSCSI protocol questions
> > Such a target is broken (if an AHS is allowed, the target has to
> > expect that it might be present and be prepared to do whatever
> > is necessary), and should be fixed.
>
>
> Let me give a better example: Section 9.2.2.1, AHSType, lists "60- 63
> Non-iSCSI extensions".  What should the target do if it comes across an AHS
> with an AHSType of 60?  Is there some other document specifying what these
> codes mean?

I had taken those AHS types to be vendor-specific. As such, I think it's
wrong for the initiator to have used one of them before negotiating with
the target to use it. And since negotiation happens before FFP, well,
there should be no qestion on if it's been negotiated or not. :-)

Take care,

Bill



From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Fri Aug 30 19:58:15 2002
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Immediate commands do not create holes. Immediate commands can be =
aborted ONLY if referenced by their ITT.
Again RefCmdSN is used only if the command is not found by ITT - and =
then only to avoid having to send a duplicate command.

Julo
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Tony Battersby=20
  To: 'Julian Satran'=20
  Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu=20
  Sent: 30 August, 2002 21:29
  Subject: RE: iSCSI: aborting an immediate command with ABORT TASK


  In my example, the command with the Initiator Task Tag matching the =
Referenced Task Tag is not at the target.  When the target considers the =
command with RefCmdSN received, it assumes _incorrectly_ that the =
command with RefCmdSN must have Initiator Task Tag =3D=3D Referenced =
Task Tag.  That assumption can be incorrect when immediate commands are =
used because multiple commands with different Initiator Task Tags can =
have the same CmdSN.  This is just another way of looking at the =
problem, but the problem still exists.


    -----Original Message-----
  From: Julian Satran [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]
  Sent: Friday, August 30, 2002 2:15 PM
  To: tonyb@cybernetics.com
  Cc: ips@ece.cmu.edu; owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
  Subject: Re: iSCSI: aborting an immediate command with ABORT TASK

  Tony,=20

  As it was already pointed out CmSN is a SECONDARY identifier - the =
primary being the Referenced Task Tag.=20
  I was introduced to simplify handling holes (commands discarded or =
arriving late).=20
  In your example A and B have different ITT or one of them gets bumped. =


  Julo=20



       "Tony Battersby" <tonyb@cybernetics.com>=20
        Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu=20
        30/08/02 20:16=20
        Please respond to tonyb=20

              =20
                To:        <ips@ece.cmu.edu>=20
                cc:        =20
                Subject:        iSCSI: aborting an immediate command =
with ABORT TASK=20

               =20


  It seems that an initiator attempting to abort an immediate command =
may
  inadvertently cause the next non-immediate command to be aborted =
instead.
  For example,

  Initiator sends an immediate command "A" with CmdSN 10.
  Initiator sends a non-immediate command "B" with CmdSN 10.
  Initiator sends an immediate ABORT TASK command "C" with CmdSN 11 to =
abort
  command "A" (RefCmdSN =3D=3D 10, Referenced Task Tag =3D=3D Initiator =
Task Tag of
  "A").

  If the target either:
  1) Receives "C" before "A" or "B", OR
  2) Receives "C" before "B" but after executing and freeing "A",

  ...then the target will not have a matching task for the abort in its =
queue,
  and will consider CmdSN 10 received because it is inside the valid =
CmdSN
  window.  If the target then receives "B", it will silently ignore the
  command because it is outside the valid CmdSN window.  This is =
obviously not
  what the initiator was trying to accomplish.

  This problem could be solved by adding a flag to the PDU for the ABORT =
TASK
  command to indicate if the task to be aborted is immediate or =
non-immediate.
  If the target does not have a matching task and the RefCmdSN is inside =
the
  valid command window, then the target should consider the CmdSN =
received
  only if the flag indicates that the task to be aborted is =
non-immediate.

  -----------------------

  One other thing: for draft 16, I recommend that the the following =
phrase:
  "... (i.e., with CmdSN not higher than the task management command =
CmdSN)
  ..."
  in section 9.5.1 be changed to:
  "... (i.e., with CmdSN lower than the task management command CmdSN) =
...".
  This is for consistency with another sentence earlier in the same =
paragraph.


  Anthony J. Battersby
  Cybernetics





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<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Immediate commands do not create holes. =
Immediate=20
commands can be aborted ONLY if referenced by their ITT.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Again RefCmdSN is used only if the =
command is not=20
found by ITT - and then only to avoid having to send a duplicate=20
command.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Julo</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3Dtonyb@cybernetics.com =
href=3D"mailto:tonyb@cybernetics.com">Tony=20
  Battersby</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3DJulian_Satran@il.ibm.com=20
  href=3D"mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com">'Julian Satran'</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=3Dips@ece.cmu.edu=20
  href=3D"mailto:ips@ece.cmu.edu">ips@ece.cmu.edu</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> 30 August, 2002 =
21:29</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: iSCSI: aborting an =
immediate=20
  command with ABORT TASK</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D155322018-30082002>In =
my example, the=20
  command with the Initiator Task Tag matching the Referenced Task Tag =
is not at=20
  the target.&nbsp; When the target considers the&nbsp;command with =
RefCmdSN=20
  received, it assumes _incorrectly_ that the command with RefCmdSN must =
have=20
  Initiator Task Tag =3D=3D Referenced Task Tag.&nbsp; That assumption =
can=20
  be&nbsp;incorrect&nbsp;when immediate commands are used because =
multiple=20
  commands with different Initiator Task Tags can have the same =
CmdSN.&nbsp;=20
  This is just another way of looking at the problem,</SPAN></FONT><FONT =

  face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D155322018-30082002> but the =
problem still=20
  exists.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D155322018-30082002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
  class=3D155322018-30082002></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DTahoma><FONT size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D155322018-30082002><FONT=20
  face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff>&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN>-----Original=20
  Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Julian Satran=20
  [mailto:Julian_Satran@il.ibm.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, August 30, =
2002 2:15=20
  PM<BR><B>To:</B> tonyb@cybernetics.com<BR><B>Cc:</B> ips@ece.cmu.edu;=20
  owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: iSCSI: aborting an =
immediate=20
  command with ABORT TASK<BR></FONT></FONT><BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif=20
  size=3D2>Tony,</FONT> <BR><BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2>As it =
was already=20
  pointed out CmSN is a SECONDARY identifier - the primary being the =
Referenced=20
  Task Tag.</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2>I was introduced =
to simplify=20
  handling holes (commands discarded or arriving late).</FONT> <BR><FONT =

  face=3Dsans-serif size=3D2>In your example A and B have different ITT =
or one of=20
  them gets bumped.</FONT> <BR><BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif =
size=3D2>Julo</FONT>=20
  <BR><BR><BR><BR>
  <TABLE width=3D"100%">
    <TBODY>
    <TR vAlign=3Dtop>
      <TD>
      <TD><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1><B>"Tony Battersby"=20
        &lt;tonyb@cybernetics.com&gt;</B></FONT> <BR><FONT =
face=3Dsans-serif=20
        size=3D1>Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu</FONT>=20
        <P><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1>30/08/02 20:16</FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
        face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1>Please respond to tonyb</FONT> =
<BR></P>
      <TD><FONT face=3DArial size=3D1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
</FONT><BR><FONT=20
        face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; To: =
&nbsp; &nbsp;=20
        &nbsp; &nbsp;&lt;ips@ece.cmu.edu&gt;</FONT> <BR><FONT =
face=3Dsans-serif=20
        size=3D1>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=20
        &nbsp;</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3Dsans-serif size=3D1>&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;=20
        &nbsp; Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;iSCSI: aborting an =
immediate=20
        command with ABORT TASK</FONT> <BR><BR><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D1>&nbsp;=20
        &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;</FONT></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR><BR><FONT=20
  face=3D"Courier New" size=3D2>It seems that an initiator attempting to =
abort an=20
  immediate command may<BR>inadvertently cause the next non-immediate =
command to=20
  be aborted instead.<BR>For example,<BR><BR>Initiator sends an =
immediate=20
  command "A" with CmdSN 10.<BR>Initiator sends a non-immediate command =
"B" with=20
  CmdSN 10.<BR>Initiator sends an immediate ABORT TASK command "C" with =
CmdSN 11=20
  to abort<BR>command "A" (RefCmdSN =3D=3D 10, Referenced Task Tag =
=3D=3D Initiator Task=20
  Tag of<BR>"A").<BR><BR>If the target either:<BR>1) Receives "C" before =
"A" or=20
  "B", OR<BR>2) Receives "C" before "B" but after executing and freeing=20
  "A",<BR><BR>...then the target will not have a matching task for the =
abort in=20
  its queue,<BR>and will consider CmdSN 10 received because it is inside =
the=20
  valid CmdSN<BR>window. &nbsp;If the target then receives "B", it will =
silently=20
  ignore the<BR>command because it is outside the valid CmdSN window. =
&nbsp;This=20
  is obviously not<BR>what the initiator was trying to =
accomplish.<BR><BR>This=20
  problem could be solved by adding a flag to the PDU for the ABORT=20
  TASK<BR>command to indicate if the task to be aborted is immediate or=20
  non-immediate.<BR>If the target does not have a matching task and the =
RefCmdSN=20
  is inside the<BR>valid command window, then the target should consider =
the=20
  CmdSN received<BR>only if the flag indicates that the task to be =
aborted is=20
  non-immediate.<BR><BR>-----------------------<BR><BR>One other thing: =
for=20
  draft 16, I recommend that the the following phrase:<BR>"... (i.e., =
with CmdSN=20
  not higher than the task management command CmdSN)<BR>..."<BR>in =
section 9.5.1=20
  be changed to:<BR>"... (i.e., with CmdSN lower than the task =
management=20
  command CmdSN) ...".<BR>This is for consistency with another sentence =
earlier=20
  in the same paragraph.<BR><BR><BR>Anthony J.=20
  =
Battersby<BR>Cybernetics<BR><BR></FONT><BR><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY>=
</HTML>

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From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Fri Aug 30 23:34:22 2002
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Message-ID: <010b01c25098$7cf70610$edd52b0f@rose.hp.com>
From: "Mallikarjun C." <cbm@rose.hp.com>
To: <Black_David@emc.com>, <tonyb@cybernetics.com>, <ips@ece.cmu.edu>
References: <277DD60FB639D511AC0400B0D068B71E0564C243@CORPMX14>
Subject: Re: iSCSI: TMF valid on all iSCSI taks? ( Was: Several iSCSI protocol questions)
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 19:45:37 -0700
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The intent consistently expressed in the draft is that all iSCSI tasks
are the same in that they are "managed" by the same task management 
functions (proposed exceptions below) - some iSCSI tasks are also SCSI 
tasks as a co-incidence.  Technically, I thought we had concluded in
the past that, one could use Abort Task TMF to abort Text Requests as well
(and that's reflected in 2.2.2.1, second para).  I think this is one of 
the core ideas in the draft, and not worth risking a last minute change.

Tony caught a scenario that however, I think, merits an explicit clarification in 
the draft - due to the inherent ambiguity in delivering an Abort Task
TMF to the SCSI layer that's directed at an abort operation already 
being carried out by the SCSI layer (What does a successful completion 
of the second abort mean to the original task state?  Should the first
Abort response be sent back or not?).  OTOH, there's no ambiguity
for the Task Set management case, because one knows that all the tasks
are dead once the TMF completes (SCSI tasks, iSCSI "abort" 
tasks, everything).

I suggest that we add a clarification for the "Abort-of-Abort" case, and 
a couple of others (one of which is currently covered in 9.10) in one 
new subsection.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
9.5.7 Exceptions to Task Management Function Request usage

The following two exceptions apply to the usage of iSCSI Task Management
functions defined earlier in the document.

       a) The ABORT TASK task management function request MUST NOT
        be directed at a prior iSCSI task performing an ABORT TASK task 
        management function request.

       b) The TASK REASSIGN task management function request MUST 
       NOT be used to reassign the connection allegiance of an active text 
       negotiation task, or a Logout task.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If we do this, we'd have to 

    - Have the "any iSCSI task" language in section 2.2.2.1, second para to
       point to the new 9.5.7, to make the reader aware of the exceptions.
    - ditto for the first sentence in 9.5.1.
    - ditto for the "All these functions apply..." sentence later in 9.5.1 that 
       David identified.

Comments?
--
Mallikarjun

Mallikarjun Chadalapaka
Networked Storage Architecture
Network Storage Solutions
Hewlett-Packard MS 5668 
Roseville CA 95747
cbm@rose.hp.com

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <Black_David@emc.com>
To: <tonyb@cybernetics.com>; <ips@ece.cmu.edu>
Sent: Friday, August 30, 2002 7:58 AM
Subject: RE: Several iSCSI protocol questions


> > > > Since the Task Management Function itself has a CmdSN and
> > > > valid LUN, can one
> > > > Task Management Function affect (abort) another?
> > >
> > > No, SCSI task management functions operate on *SCSI* tasks, not *iSCSI*
> > > tasks, and a task management function is not a *SCSI* task - see SAM-2.
> > 
> > This contradicts the text in Section 9.5.1: "The Task Management functions
> > provide an initiator with a way to explicitly control the execution of one
> > or more Tasks (SCSI and iSCSI tasks)."  Your interpretation makes more
> sense
> > to me, however.
> 
> And there's more text further down in 9.5.1 that seems to imply that
> one ought to be able to abort a Task Management Function.
> 
>   All these functions apply to the referenced tasks regard-
>   less of whether they are proper SCSI tasks or tagged iSCSI opera-
>   tions.
> 
> I think you've caught something we need to fix ...
> 
> > > > If not, then what is the
> > > > appropriate Task Management Function Response for an ABORT TASK that
> > > > attempts to operate on another Task Management Function?
> > >
> > > That can't happen.  The only task management function that could
> possibly
> > > attempt "to operate on another Task Management Function" is ABORT TASK,
> but
> > > it identifies the task to be aborted by an Initiator Task Tag, something
> > > that Task Management Functions *do not* have - see Section
> > > 9.5 of the iSCSI draft.
> > 
> > I am looking at Section 9.5.  I see "Initiator Task Tag" in the table
> > showing the PDU format, although it is not mentioned in the 
> > text.  Another typo?
> 
> My mistake - I think we have some text cleanup to do, as SAM-2 definitely
> considers task management functions not to be tasks, thus avoiding issues
> of what happens when a task management function is applied to a task
> management function - I believe iSCSI needs to follow this route.  Julian?
> 
> Thanks,
> --David
> ---------------------------------------------------
> David L. Black, Senior Technologist
> EMC Corporation, 42 South St., Hopkinton, MA  01748
> +1 (508) 249-6449            FAX: +1 (508) 497-8018
> black_david@emc.com       Mobile: +1 (978) 394-7754
> ---------------------------------------------------
> 



From owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu  Sat Aug 31 02:15:21 2002
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Subject: Re: iSCSI: TMF valid on all iSCSI taks? ( Was: Several iSCSI protocol
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Mallikarjun,

Do we really need those exceptions?

For the ABORT TASK the only ambiguity I see in the text is that of what is 
the result of an ABORT TASK on an ABORT TASK. I thought that the return 
of a response for each will be an indication of the action taken.

To really simplify thing and not build excessive logic around it I suggest 
that we say that a target will never execute a TM abort task on a TM 
function.

The text of 9.5.1 becomes:

Function
The Task Management functions provide an initiator with a way to 
explicitly control the execution of one or more Tasks (SCSI and iSCSI 
tasks). The Task Management function codes are listed below. For a more 
detailed description of SCSI task management, see [SAM2].

1  -  ABORT TASK - aborts the task identified by the Referenced Task Tag 
field.

2  -  ABORT TASK SET - aborts all Tasks issued via this session on the 
logical unit.

3  -  CLEAR ACA - clears the Auto Contingent Allegiance condition.

4  -  CLEAR TASK SET - aborts all Tasks in the appropriate task set as 
defined by the TST field in the Control mode page (see [SPC3]).

5  -  LOGICAL UNIT RESET

6  -  TARGET WARM RESET

7                 -  TARGET COLD RESET

8  -  TASK REASSIGN - reassigns connection allegiance for the task 
identified by the Initiator Task Tag field to this connection, thus 
resuming the iSCSI exchanges for the task.

For all these functions, the Task Management function response MUST be 
returned as detailed in Section 9.6 Task Management Function Response. All 
these functions apply to the referenced tasks regardless of whether they 
are proper SCSI tasks or tagged iSCSI operations.  Task management 
requests must act on all the commands having a CmdSN lower than the task 
management CmdSN. If the task management request is marked for immediate 
delivery, it must be considered immediately for execution, but the 
operations involved (all or part of them) may be postponed to allow the 
target to receive all relevant tasks. According to [SAM2], for all the 
tasks covered by the Task Management response (i.e., with CmdSN not higher 
than the task management command CmdSN), additional responses MUST NOT be 
delivered to the SCSI layer after the Task Management response. The iSCSI 
initiator MAY deliver to the SCSI layer all responses received before the 
Task Management response (i.e., it is a matter of implementation if the 
SCSI responses, received before the Task Management response but after the 
task management request was issued, are delivered to the SCSI layer by the 
iSCSI layer in the initiator). The iSCSI target MUST ensure that no 
responses for the tasks covered by a task management function are 
delivered to the iSCSI initiator after the Task Management response. 

For ABORT TASK SET and CLEAR TASK SET, the issuing initiator MUST continue 
to respond to all valid target transfer tags (received via R2T, Text 
Response, NOP-In, or SCSI Data-in PDUs) related to the affected task set, 
even after issuing the task management request.  The issuing initiator 
SHOULD however terminate (i.e., by setting the F-bit to 1) these response 
sequences as quickly as possible.  The target on its part MUST wait for 
responses on all affected target transfer tags before acting on either of 
these two task management requests.  In case all or part of the response 
sequence is not received (due to digest errors) for a valid TTT, the 
target MAY treat it as a case of within-command error recovery class (see 
Section 5.1.4.1 Recovery Within-command) if it is supporting 
ErrorRecoveryLevel >= 1, or alternatively may drop the connection to 
complete the requested task set function.

If the connection is still active (it is not undergoing an implicit or 
explicit logout), ABORT TASK MUST be issued on the same connection to 
which the task to be aborted is allegiant at the time the Task Management 
Request is issued. If the connection is implicitly or explicitly logged 
out (i.e., no other request will be issued on the failing connection and 
no other response will be received on the failing connection), then an 
ABORT TASK function request may be issued on another connection. This Task 
Management request will then establish a new allegiance for the command to 
be aborted as well as abort it (i.e., the task to be aborted will not have 
to be retried or reassigned, and its status, if issued but not 
acknowledged, will be reissued followed by the Task Management response).

At the target an ABORT TASK function MUST NOT be executed on a Task 
Management request; such a request MUST result in Task Management response 
of "Function rejected". 

For the LOGICAL UNIT RESET function, the target MUST behave as dictated by 
the Logical Unit Reset function in [SAM2]. 

The implementation of the TARGET WARM RESET function and the TARGET COLD 
RESET function is OPTIONAL and when implemented, should act as described 
below. The TARGET WARM RESET is also subject to SCSI access controls on 
the requesting initiator as defined in [SPC3].  When authorization fails 
at the target, the appropriate response as described in Section 9.6 Task 
Management Function Response MUST be returned by the target. The TARGET 
COLD RESET function is not subject to SCSI access controls, but its 
execution privileges may be managed by iSCSI mechanisms such as login 
authentication.

When executing the TARGET WARM RESET and TARGET COLD RESET functions, the 
target cancels all pending operations on all Logical Units known by the 
issuing initiator. Both functions are equivalent to the Target Reset 
function specified by [SAM2]. They can affect many other initiators logged 
in with the servicing SCSI target port.

The target MUST treat the TARGET COLD RESET function additionally as a 
power on event, thus terminating all of its TCP connections to all 
initiators (all sessions are terminated).  For this reason, the Service 
Response (defined by [SAM2]) for this SCSI task management function may 
not be reliably delivered to the issuing initiator port.

For the TASK REASSIGN function, the target should reassign the connection 
allegiance to this new connection (and thus resume iSCSI exchanges for the 
task). TASK REASSIGN MUST ONLY be received by the target after the 
connection on which the command was previously executing has been 
successfully logged-out. The Task Management response MUST be issued 
before the reassignment becomes effective. 
For additional usage semantics see Section 5.2 Retry and Reassign in 
Recovery.

At the target a TASK REASSIGN function request MUST NOT be executed to 
reassign the connection allegiance of a Task Management function request 
an active text negotiation task, or a Logout task; such a request MUST 
result in Task Management response of "Function rejected". 

TASK REASSIGN MUST be issued as an immediate command.





"Mallikarjun C." <cbm@rose.hp.com>
Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu
31/08/02 05:45

 
        To:     <Black_David@emc.com>, <tonyb@cybernetics.com>, <ips@ece.cmu.edu>
        cc: 
        Subject:        Re: iSCSI: TMF valid on all iSCSI taks? ( Was: Several iSCSI protocol 
questions)

 

The intent consistently expressed in the draft is that all iSCSI tasks
are the same in that they are "managed" by the same task management 
functions (proposed exceptions below) - some iSCSI tasks are also SCSI 
tasks as a co-incidence.  Technically, I thought we had concluded in
the past that, one could use Abort Task TMF to abort Text Requests as well
(and that's reflected in 2.2.2.1, second para).  I think this is one of 
the core ideas in the draft, and not worth risking a last minute change.

Tony caught a scenario that however, I think, merits an explicit 
clarification in 
the draft - due to the inherent ambiguity in delivering an Abort Task
TMF to the SCSI layer that's directed at an abort operation already 
being carried out by the SCSI layer (What does a successful completion 
of the second abort mean to the original task state?  Should the first
Abort response be sent back or not?).  OTOH, there's no ambiguity
for the Task Set management case, because one knows that all the tasks
are dead once the TMF completes (SCSI tasks, iSCSI "abort" 
tasks, everything).

I suggest that we add a clarification for the "Abort-of-Abort" case, and 
a couple of others (one of which is currently covered in 9.10) in one 
new subsection.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
9.5.7 Exceptions to Task Management Function Request usage

The following two exceptions apply to the usage of iSCSI Task Management
functions defined earlier in the document.

       a) The ABORT TASK task management function request MUST NOT
        be directed at a prior iSCSI task performing an ABORT TASK task 
        management function request.

       b) The TASK REASSIGN task management function request MUST 
       NOT be used to reassign the connection allegiance of an active text 

       negotiation task, or a Logout task.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If we do this, we'd have to 

    - Have the "any iSCSI task" language in section 2.2.2.1, second para 
to
       point to the new 9.5.7, to make the reader aware of the exceptions.
    - ditto for the first sentence in 9.5.1.
    - ditto for the "All these functions apply..." sentence later in 9.5.1 
that 
       David identified.

Comments?
--
Mallikarjun

Mallikarjun Chadalapaka
Networked Storage Architecture
Network Storage Solutions
Hewlett-Packard MS 5668 
Roseville CA 95747
cbm@rose.hp.com

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <Black_David@emc.com>
To: <tonyb@cybernetics.com>; <ips@ece.cmu.edu>
Sent: Friday, August 30, 2002 7:58 AM
Subject: RE: Several iSCSI protocol questions


> > > > Since the Task Management Function itself has a CmdSN and
> > > > valid LUN, can one
> > > > Task Management Function affect (abort) another?
> > >
> > > No, SCSI task management functions operate on *SCSI* tasks, not 
*iSCSI*
> > > tasks, and a task management function is not a *SCSI* task - see 
SAM-2.
> > 
> > This contradicts the text in Section 9.5.1: "The Task Management 
functions
> > provide an initiator with a way to explicitly control the execution of 
one
> > or more Tasks (SCSI and iSCSI tasks)."  Your interpretation makes more
> sense
> > to me, however.
> 
> And there's more text further down in 9.5.1 that seems to imply that
> one ought to be able to abort a Task Management Function.
> 
>   All these functions apply to the referenced tasks regard-
>   less of whether they are proper SCSI tasks or tagged iSCSI opera-
>   tions.
> 
> I think you've caught something we need to fix ...
> 
> > > > If not, then what is the
> > > > appropriate Task Management Function Response for an ABORT TASK 
that
> > > > attempts to operate on another Task Management Function?
> > >
> > > That can't happen.  The only task management function that could
> possibly
> > > attempt "to operate on another Task Management Function" is ABORT 
TASK,
> but
> > > it identifies the task to be aborted by an Initiator Task Tag, 
something
> > > that Task Management Functions *do not* have - see Section
> > > 9.5 of the iSCSI draft.
> > 
> > I am looking at Section 9.5.  I see "Initiator Task Tag" in the table
> > showing the PDU format, although it is not mentioned in the 
> > text.  Another typo?
> 
> My mistake - I think we have some text cleanup to do, as SAM-2 
definitely
> considers task management functions not to be tasks, thus avoiding 
issues
> of what happens when a task management function is applied to a task
> management function - I believe iSCSI needs to follow this route. 
Julian?
> 
> Thanks,
> --David
> ---------------------------------------------------
> David L. Black, Senior Technologist
> EMC Corporation, 42 South St., Hopkinton, MA  01748
> +1 (508) 249-6449            FAX: +1 (508) 497-8018
> black_david@emc.com       Mobile: +1 (978) 394-7754
> ---------------------------------------------------
> 




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<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Mallikarjun,</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Do we really need those exceptions?</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">For the ABORT TASK the only ambiguity I see in the text is that of what is the result of an ABORT TASK on an ABORT TASK. I thought that the return </font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">of a response for each will be an indication of the action taken.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">To really simplify thing and not build excessive logic around it I suggest that we say that a target will never execute a TM abort task on a TM function.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">The text of 9.5.1 becomes:</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="Courier New">Function</font>
<p><font size=3 face="Courier New">The Task Management functions provide an initiator with a way to explicitly control the execution of one or more Tasks (SCSI and iSCSI tasks). The Task Management function codes are listed below. For a more detailed description of SCSI task management, see [SAM2].</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="Courier New">1 &nbsp;- &nbsp;ABORT TASK - aborts the task identified by the Referenced Task Tag field.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="Courier New">2 &nbsp;- &nbsp;ABORT TASK SET - aborts all Tasks issued via this session on the logical unit.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="Courier New">3 &nbsp;- &nbsp;CLEAR ACA - clears the Auto Contingent Allegiance condition.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="Courier New">4 &nbsp;- &nbsp;CLEAR TASK SET - aborts all Tasks in the appropriate task set as defined by the TST field in the Control mode page (see [SPC3]).</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="Courier New">5 &nbsp;- &nbsp;LOGICAL UNIT RESET</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="Courier New">6 &nbsp;- &nbsp;TARGET WARM RESET</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="Courier New">7 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;- &nbsp;TARGET COLD RESET</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="Courier New">8 &nbsp;- &nbsp;TASK REASSIGN - reassigns connection allegiance for the task identified by the Initiator Task Tag field to this connection, thus resuming the iSCSI exchanges for the task.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="Courier New">For all these functions, the Task Management function response MUST be returned as detailed in Section 9.6 Task Management Function Response. All these functions apply to the referenced tasks regardless of whether they are proper SCSI tasks or tagged iSCSI operations. &nbsp;Task management requests must act on all the commands having a CmdSN lower than the task management CmdSN. If the task management request is marked for immediate delivery, it must be considered immediately for execution, but the operations involved (all or part of them) may be postponed to allow the target to receive all relevant tasks. According to [SAM2], for all the tasks covered by the Task Management response (i.e., with CmdSN not higher than the task management command CmdSN), additional responses MUST NOT be delivered to the SCSI layer after the Task Management response. The iSCSI initiator MAY deliver to the SCSI layer all responses received before the Task Mana!
gement response (i.e., it is a matter of implementation if the SCSI responses, received before the Task Management response but after the task management request was issued, are delivered to the SCSI layer by the iSCSI layer in the initiator). The iSCSI target MUST ensure that no responses for the tasks covered by a task management function are delivered to the iSCSI initiator after the Task Management response. </font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="Courier New">For ABORT TASK SET and CLEAR TASK SET, the issuing initiator MUST continue to respond to all valid target transfer tags (received via R2T, Text Response, NOP-In, or SCSI Data-in PDUs) related to the affected task set, even after issuing the task management request. &nbsp;The issuing initiator SHOULD however terminate (i.e., by setting the F-bit to 1) these response sequences as quickly as possible. &nbsp;The target on its part MUST wait for responses on all affected target transfer tags before acting on either of these two task management requests. &nbsp;In case all or part of the response sequence is not received (due to digest errors) for a valid TTT, the target MAY treat it as a case of within-command error recovery class (see Section 5.1.4.1 Recovery Within-command) if it is supporting ErrorRecoveryLevel &gt;= 1, or alternatively may drop the connection to complete the requested task set function.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="Courier New">If the connection is still active (it is not undergoing an implicit or explicit logout), ABORT TASK MUST be issued on the same connection to which the task to be aborted is allegiant at the time the Task Management Request is issued. If the connection is implicitly or explicitly logged out (i.e., no other request will be issued on the failing connection and no other response will be received on the failing connection), then an ABORT TASK function request may be issued on another connection. This Task Management request will then establish a new allegiance for the command to be aborted as well as abort it (i.e., the task to be aborted will not have to be retried or reassigned, and its status, if issued but not acknowledged, will be reissued followed by the Task Management response).</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="Courier New">At the target an ABORT TASK function MUST NOT be executed on a Task Management request; such a request MUST result in Task Management response of &quot;Function rejected&quot;. </font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="Courier New">For the LOGICAL UNIT RESET function, the target MUST behave as dictated by the Logical Unit Reset function in [SAM2]. </font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="Courier New">The implementation of the TARGET WARM RESET function and the TARGET COLD RESET function is OPTIONAL and when implemented, should act as described below. The TARGET WARM RESET is also subject to SCSI access controls on the requesting initiator as defined in [SPC3]. &nbsp;When authorization fails at the target, the appropriate response as described in Section 9.6 Task Management Function Response MUST be returned by the target. The TARGET COLD RESET function is not subject to SCSI access controls, but its execution privileges may be managed by iSCSI mechanisms such as login authentication.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="Courier New">When executing the TARGET WARM RESET and TARGET COLD RESET functions, the target cancels all pending operations on all Logical Units known by the issuing initiator. Both functions are equivalent to the Target Reset function specified by [SAM2]. They can affect many other initiators logged in with the servicing SCSI target port.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="Courier New">The target MUST treat the TARGET COLD RESET function additionally as a power on event, thus terminating all of its TCP connections to all initiators (all sessions are terminated). &nbsp;For this reason, the Service Response (defined by [SAM2]) for this SCSI task management function may not be reliably delivered to the issuing initiator port.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="Courier New">For the TASK REASSIGN function, the target should reassign the connection allegiance to this new connection (and thus resume iSCSI exchanges for the task). TASK REASSIGN MUST ONLY be received by the target after the connection on which the command was previously executing has been successfully logged-out. The Task Management response MUST be issued before the reassignment becomes effective. </font>
<br><font size=3 face="Courier New">For additional usage semantics see Section 5.2 Retry and Reassign in Recovery.</font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="Courier New">At the target a TASK REASSIGN function request MUST NOT be executed to reassign the connection allegiance of a Task Management function request an active text negotiation task, or a Logout task; such a request MUST result in Task Management response of &quot;Function rejected&quot;. </font>
<br>
<br><font size=3 face="Courier New">TASK REASSIGN MUST be issued as an immediate command.</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>&quot;Mallikarjun C.&quot; &lt;cbm@rose.hp.com&gt;</b></font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Sent by: owner-ips@ece.cmu.edu</font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">31/08/02 05:45</font>
<br>
<td><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; </font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&lt;Black_David@emc.com&gt;, &lt;tonyb@cybernetics.com&gt;, &lt;ips@ece.cmu.edu&gt;</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font>
<br><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Re: iSCSI: TMF valid on all iSCSI taks? ( Was: Several iSCSI protocol questions)</font>
<br>
<br><font size=1 face="Arial">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;</font></table>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">The intent consistently expressed in the draft is that all iSCSI tasks<br>
are the same in that they are &quot;managed&quot; by the same task management <br>
functions (proposed exceptions below) - some iSCSI tasks are also SCSI <br>
tasks as a co-incidence. &nbsp;Technically, I thought we had concluded in<br>
the past that, one could use Abort Task TMF to abort Text Requests as well<br>
(and that's reflected in 2.2.2.1, second para). &nbsp;I think this is one of <br>
the core ideas in the draft, and not worth risking a last minute change.<br>
<br>
Tony caught a scenario that however, I think, merits an explicit clarification in <br>
the draft - due to the inherent ambiguity in delivering an Abort Task<br>
TMF to the SCSI layer that's directed at an abort operation already <br>
being carried out by the SCSI layer (What does a successful completion <br>
of the second abort mean to the original task state? &nbsp;Should the first<br>
Abort response be sent back or not?). &nbsp;OTOH, there's no ambiguity<br>
for the Task Set management case, because one knows that all the tasks<br>
are dead once the TMF completes (SCSI tasks, iSCSI &quot;abort&quot; <br>
tasks, everything).<br>
<br>
I suggest that we add a clarification for the &quot;Abort-of-Abort&quot; case, and <br>
a couple of others (one of which is currently covered in 9.10) in one <br>
new subsection.<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
9.5.7 Exceptions to Task Management Function Request usage<br>
<br>
The following two exceptions apply to the usage of iSCSI Task Management<br>
functions defined earlier in the document.<br>
<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; a) The ABORT TASK task management function request MUST NOT<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;be directed at a prior iSCSI task performing an ABORT TASK task <br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;management function request.<br>
<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; b) The TASK REASSIGN task management function request MUST <br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; NOT be used to reassign the connection allegiance of an active text <br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; negotiation task, or a Logout task.<br>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
If we do this, we'd have to <br>
<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp;- Have the &quot;any iSCSI task&quot; language in section 2.2.2.1, second para to<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; point to the new 9.5.7, to make the reader aware of the exceptions.<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp;- ditto for the first sentence in 9.5.1.<br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp;- ditto for the &quot;All these functions apply...&quot; sentence later in 9.5.1 that <br>
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; David identified.<br>
<br>
Comments?<br>
--<br>
Mallikarjun<br>
<br>
Mallikarjun Chadalapaka<br>
Networked Storage Architecture<br>
Network Storage Solutions<br>
Hewlett-Packard MS 5668 <br>
Roseville CA 95747<br>
cbm@rose.hp.com<br>
<br>
----- Original Message ----- <br>
From: &lt;Black_David@emc.com&gt;<br>
To: &lt;tonyb@cybernetics.com&gt;; &lt;ips@ece.cmu.edu&gt;<br>
Sent: Friday, August 30, 2002 7:58 AM<br>
Subject: RE: Several iSCSI protocol questions<br>
<br>
<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Since the Task Management Function itself has a CmdSN and<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; valid LUN, can one<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; Task Management Function affect (abort) another?<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; No, SCSI task management functions operate on *SCSI* tasks, not *iSCSI*<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; tasks, and a task management function is not a *SCSI* task - see SAM-2.<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; This contradicts the text in Section 9.5.1: &quot;The Task Management functions<br>
&gt; &gt; provide an initiator with a way to explicitly control the execution of one<br>
&gt; &gt; or more Tasks (SCSI and iSCSI tasks).&quot; &nbsp;Your interpretation makes more<br>
&gt; sense<br>
&gt; &gt; to me, however.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; And there's more text further down in 9.5.1 that seems to imply that<br>
&gt; one ought to be able to abort a Task Management Function.</font>
<br><font size=2 face="Courier New">&gt; <br>
&gt; &nbsp; All these functions apply to the referenced tasks regard-<br>
&gt; &nbsp; less of whether they are proper SCSI tasks or tagged iSCSI opera-<br>
&gt; &nbsp; tions.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; I think you've caught something we need to fix ...<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; If not, then what is the<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; appropriate Task Management Function Response for an ABORT TASK that<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; attempts to operate on another Task Management Function?<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; That can't happen. &nbsp;The only task management function that could<br>
&gt; possibly<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; attempt &quot;to operate on another Task Management Function&quot; is ABORT TASK,<br>
&gt; but<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; it identifies the task to be aborted by an Initiator Task Tag, something<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; that Task Management Functions *do not* have - see Section<br>
&gt; &gt; &gt; 9.5 of the iSCSI draft.<br>
&gt; &gt; <br>
&gt; &gt; I am looking at Section 9.5. &nbsp;I see &quot;Initiator Task Tag&quot; in the table<br>
&gt; &gt; showing the PDU format, although it is not mentioned in the <br>
&gt; &gt; text. &nbsp;Another typo?<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; My mistake - I think we have some text cleanup to do, as SAM-2 definitely<br>
&gt; considers task management functions not to be tasks, thus avoiding issues<br>
&gt; of what happens when a task management function is applied to a task<br>
&gt; management function - I believe iSCSI needs to follow this route. &nbsp;Julian?<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Thanks,<br>
&gt; --David<br>
&gt; ---------------------------------------------------<br>
&gt; David L. Black, Senior Technologist<br>
&gt; EMC Corporation, 42 South St., Hopkinton, MA &nbsp;01748<br>
&gt; +1 (508) 249-6449 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;FAX: +1 (508) 497-8018<br>
&gt; black_david@emc.com &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Mobile: +1 (978) 394-7754<br>
&gt; ---------------------------------------------------<br>
&gt; <br>
<br>
</font>
<br>
<br>
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