From nobody Thu May 1 11:19:53 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD46C1A093A for ; Thu, 1 May 2014 11:19:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.152 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.152 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8Jkea35qCffJ for ; Thu, 1 May 2014 11:19:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com [173.37.86.78]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 974A81A0929 for ; Thu, 1 May 2014 11:19:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; 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Thu, 1 May 2014 18:19:48 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com ([169.254.15.104]) by xhc-rcd-x04.cisco.com ([fe80::200:5efe:173.37.183.34%12]) with mapi id 14.03.0123.003; Thu, 1 May 2014 13:19:48 -0500 From: "Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)" To: Tim Bray Thread-Topic: [Json] I-JSON Topic #5: Numbers Thread-Index: AQHPYxzPc1qOL3zAFk6QxZ1T0YrJO5snzN0A//+jtwCAAGnvgIAEImEA Date: Thu, 1 May 2014 18:19:47 +0000 Message-ID: References: <535EB3BF.8080606@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.4.1.140326 x-originating-ip: [10.129.24.156] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <3486D27881F607408553737587A3BD2E@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/vhoAhVAF7FSWo-mfvMcd00fX5q0 Cc: IETF JSON WG , "Matt Miller \(mamille2\)" Subject: Re: [Json] I-JSON Topic #5: Numbers X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 May 2014 18:19:52 -0000 U3Vibm9ybWFscyBhcmUgYWxsb3dlZCBpbiBKU09OLCBJIGJlbGlldmUuICBUaGV5IHByb2JhYmx5 IGRvbid0IGludGVyb3ANCnF1aXRlIGFzIGV4cGVjdGVkIGlmIHlvdSdyZSB1c2luZyBDIGFuZCBo YXZlIC1PMSBvciBoaWdoZXIgdHVybmVkIG9uIChmb3INCmV4YW1wbGUpLg0KDQpPbiA0LzI4LzE0 LCAzOjExIFBNLCAiVGltIEJyYXkiIDx0YnJheUB0ZXh0dWFsaXR5LmNvbT4gd3JvdGU6DQoNCj5X ZWxsLCB0aGV54oCZcmUgZGlzYWxsb3dlZCBpbiBKU09OIGxldCBhbG9uZSBpLWpzb24gc28gSeKA mWQgaGF2ZSBob3BlZCB3ZQ0KPmNhbiBpZ25vcmUgdGhlbS4NCj4NCj5PbiBNb24sIEFwciAyOCwg MjAxNCBhdCAxOjUyIFBNLCBKb2UgSGlsZGVicmFuZCAoamhpbGRlYnIpDQo+PGpoaWxkZWJyQGNp c2NvLmNvbT4gd3JvdGU6DQo+DQo+V2lsbCB3ZSBuZWVkIHRvIHRhbGsgYWJvdXQgc3Vibm9ybWFs cywgLTAsIE5hTiwgSW5maW5pdHksIGFuZCB0aGUgbGlrZT8NCg0KLS0gDQpKb2UgSGlsZGVicmFu ZA0KDQoNCg0K From nobody Thu May 1 11:40:51 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67B691A0919 for ; Thu, 1 May 2014 11:40:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tWwqFiKx7nKn for ; Thu, 1 May 2014 11:40:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-la0-x22d.google.com (mail-la0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c03::22d]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FCE11A073F for ; Thu, 1 May 2014 11:40:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-la0-f45.google.com with SMTP id pv20so2441228lab.32 for ; Thu, 01 May 2014 11:40:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Alkq4NUUMgjbOrYczLHeSfX/5RZSSPhLczoF1TdGgHo=; b=0WIzPnQEYwdcAmyUMmJcpecNNN/W06Te6MUXQ/mPPbNVJBmL9tfIWjdUh9d8OYjUnx XhtE7X/cK9XBbosRNaYnG/dPZActXuXj87elr+gLhjaGfaP7iwCqvwP2wT+/w1/eiTfd ip3iVsLCthPMiH/W8GBuoW7htbiMS0EPOBQuZvF6FhRchFtpyFlmiR1m4lp9zLTT2aU8 0eO8UzIg+/lxsihr0eC+yhnZNsIuf2pgIU6tlp4WpWH/HN7eTjOCKN/6TbCfwsUwZsjl 3yaRPHgMxDeu5OHUk9Bh3HHuDWgZnl8FtEOpaQwmv5g8aVLaInQnT5VPns9AE9wAuBwr MtHA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.152.5.202 with SMTP id u10mr2166725lau.42.1398969645522; Thu, 01 May 2014 11:40:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.112.234.229 with HTTP; Thu, 1 May 2014 11:40:45 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <535EB3BF.8080606@cisco.com> Date: Thu, 1 May 2014 14:40:45 -0400 Message-ID: From: Phillip Hallam-Baker To: Tim Bray Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/xlo5XYV0noMcvZ6Zo0eSe4ooqa4 Cc: "Matt Miller \(mamille2\)" , "Joe Hildebrand \(jhildebr\)" , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] I-JSON Topic #5: Numbers X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 01 May 2014 18:40:50 -0000 On Mon, Apr 28, 2014 at 5:11 PM, Tim Bray wrote: > Well, they=E2=80=99re disallowed in JSON let alone i-json so I=E2=80=99d = have hoped we can > ignore them. Actually, they are not. Since null is a valid value. If you are writing in C or C# and parsing JSON rather than using spray and pray scripting approaches, using null to represent NaN makes perfect sense. I don't think it really matters though since I haven't ever written a network application that used floating point values as protocol data. What I have done is to use decimal fractions 0.2222 etc. But even then, precision has not been a major concern. Right now I map those values to 64 bit integers with a 2^32 offset. It works well enough. It would be a good idea to have a JSON style format for encoding scientific data. But JSON isn't that format right now. --=20 Website: http://hallambaker.com/ From nobody Mon May 5 17:53:44 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6452F1A01DF for ; Mon, 5 May 2014 17:53:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wvEz17FJbOcQ for ; Mon, 5 May 2014 17:53:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-la0-x231.google.com (mail-la0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c03::231]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8EED1A01D7 for ; Mon, 5 May 2014 17:53:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-la0-f49.google.com with SMTP id hr17so5300843lab.36 for ; Mon, 05 May 2014 17:53:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=9cDMmHSJ0/GAbPloC+KQw60DLDoRD5vO6AOBibhtMCE=; b=D6OyUKovrRlw9YXKIR/M0OU284F/VpAwrLPZ+f0OppgPek2eqRHxWbPm7j8cYzAg8A IMgJDA2gydwwEnXOPT8/A21PAmiO+KA+jTdotB+KijgKUSPkggtVv7h22b41y4pK8Ur4 Z0x4/irQTn4ZgibAQw3R4mvM6L7AlsvtKwItYX1f1r26lAjcuqAfa5n43uEMNIa0I6L4 JhtjrmEjgxwfqt1OsPYMk4iISMaLmAyg0ZwldtOM8I2KhIGe9QRYdrWI4AN7pRyr/m4a /Uv5YiN6EKZBdd/4cbaIsi6XUiG9OQphoGiByzzwGjESjqZYFFUTueWXK7eFxJh56X/A q+IA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.128.131 with SMTP id no3mr64140lbb.57.1399337616427; Mon, 05 May 2014 17:53:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.112.234.229 with HTTP; Mon, 5 May 2014 17:53:36 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 5 May 2014 20:53:36 -0400 Message-ID: From: Phillip Hallam-Baker To: JSON WG Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/JXMo4QrchG5DYvphKO5PwMl8PPU Subject: [Json] More on log file formats X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 May 2014 00:53:42 -0000 So I needed a log file today. And I would like it in JSON. But as previously discussed, JSON does not work very well since we want to be able to write out log file entries as an append only operation. I now have two reasons for why the way to write out the log file entries is as a sequence of JSON objects without additional comas or separators. Both have to do with the need to resynchronize. The log file I am writing looks a bit like this: {.A...} {.B...} {.C...} {.D...} Now lets imagine we have a million entries and a log file viewer that is presenting the entries to the user, 40 at a time since thats what will fit on the screen. I don't think we want to have to parse the whole log file to present information buried in the middle of the file. Alternatively, lest imagine that the machine crashed while writing entry C. Do we want this to corrupt all the entries that follow making them unreadable? I certainly don't think so. Both use cases create a requirement to be able to resynchronize the reader to find the start of the next entry. This requires that there be a sequence that cannot possibly occur within a legitimate JSON object. Looking for the sequence '}' WS* '{' allows a reader to resynchronize to a legitimate start of entry marker. -- Website: http://hallambaker.com/ From nobody Mon May 5 18:10:38 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 276121A0645 for ; Mon, 5 May 2014 18:10:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.044 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.044 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id K-4oTeea8OQf for ; Mon, 5 May 2014 18:10:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a63.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 933B11A064D for ; Mon, 5 May 2014 18:10:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a63.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a63.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1780D2F4065 for ; Mon, 5 May 2014 18:10:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:cc:content-type; s=cryptonector.com; bh=0fTQ2L4twkk381JwZce/ 0DjCVbE=; b=RWtq777k8CbVc/yiLWuyY+sQ+ZV+KR1JDgcd5ym8cxAehwowUJPV QqmKO/6H2piNCi1y2YD94J7IzoJZrrfvG1gQ3e70N5Mcu19UWeYnviRBiIt3NE6J dQ+6KNwe9rgfDHN2zq9y1S+lZwIooMqLbET0t2BCiVqiLSEEan/sV3o= Received: from mail-wi0-f171.google.com (mail-wi0-f171.google.com [209.85.212.171]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a63.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C06222F4059 for ; Mon, 5 May 2014 18:10:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wi0-f171.google.com with SMTP id hm4so6483794wib.4 for ; Mon, 05 May 2014 18:10:30 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.160.166 with SMTP id xl6mr18315728wib.42.1399338630452; Mon, 05 May 2014 18:10:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.29.200 with HTTP; Mon, 5 May 2014 18:10:30 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 5 May 2014 20:10:30 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: Phillip Hallam-Baker Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/p8T63BIyHOgqYaXHgHW77ON5_uc Cc: JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] More on log file formats X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 May 2014 01:10:37 -0000 That's a good point about resynchronization, but I can't think of a fail safe sequence other than by using forbidden non-characters! Your proposed resync sequence doesn't work. Consider this: "foo} { Nico -- From nobody Mon May 5 18:12:24 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88CE51A0657 for ; Mon, 5 May 2014 18:12:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.044 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.044 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9OD18ZSkXsbG for ; Mon, 5 May 2014 18:12:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a84.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1454D1A0645 for ; Mon, 5 May 2014 18:12:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a84.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a84.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EC701DE059 for ; Mon, 5 May 2014 18:12:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:cc:content-type; s=cryptonector.com; bh=AcriAdIukF40oSSjN8us H0suAY0=; b=oC+aiy9N8dAu1qPzt6bZVdDTZ3pWjNNevV0G6tuc+o/hQT4MtM4g 95CT302yAtIOkxDa+o5RtHsO7vftxeUgqQB4SjGFYuygpqpCnI1o8WmR0Utv8p5m 9Lp3QM9uciantJBFnzwRJOq6mutgE9/coJ+74q/FPW42HGT2NJsM0D8= Received: from mail-wi0-f169.google.com (mail-wi0-f169.google.com [209.85.212.169]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a84.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4DC1B1DE058 for ; Mon, 5 May 2014 18:12:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wi0-f169.google.com with SMTP id hi2so2133678wib.0 for ; Mon, 05 May 2014 18:12:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.181.5.6 with SMTP id ci6mr18292952wid.39.1399338737036; Mon, 05 May 2014 18:12:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.29.200 with HTTP; Mon, 5 May 2014 18:12:16 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 5 May 2014 20:12:16 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: Phillip Hallam-Baker Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/AFXsZWegaDXDLavOyMa38w4aMco Cc: JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] More on log file formats X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 May 2014 01:12:22 -0000 There is a solution though: write entries encoded compactly (no newlines) and a newline after each entry. The resync sequence then is just the newline character. Nico -- From nobody Mon May 5 18:28:53 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5520B1A0662 for ; Mon, 5 May 2014 18:28:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gvuz8qHhH5cI for ; Mon, 5 May 2014 18:28:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-la0-x22c.google.com (mail-la0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c03::22c]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEADC1A065F for ; Mon, 5 May 2014 18:28:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-la0-f44.google.com with SMTP id hr17so5393663lab.31 for ; Mon, 05 May 2014 18:28:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=OO+8iQn5+RKTO9gxX5V8tjbsQO1K9GyBDX1mgubUGaA=; b=z5Rirhp5O/YBxwoQwd13VSyuVlatA7+/JkQDUiH6W3Ad6NRThSrStuyGNzx0+8RQrN 5IuZwW2sPaPJYIP8r+rfeo8OYOL1haJWbYoWRwFgYm172yjXUaocrzYE2BqPDJQsltmP 6nazH2MNYTIKXyFZJ8yTOqTo4KqPpWj4MpgDDFOAVlhIX0lIFnWqv7LResfTAunpeoa2 WM6InHh5vRZJEmo0/elfSHgDvalqa/7lc+coojBpXib1fPcsCoULmIW5gw74Mg/cyNyT 2gH7dbhQiEuW22WRQ8s2j6Hh0tALkjljFP9s8jrYNmeQ/BlMALH/eJmD8D8by22ub+Hk b7zw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.210.165 with SMTP id mv5mr32014lbc.68.1399339725509; Mon, 05 May 2014 18:28:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.112.234.229 with HTTP; Mon, 5 May 2014 18:28:45 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 5 May 2014 21:28:45 -0400 Message-ID: From: Phillip Hallam-Baker To: Nico Williams Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/4MaJ6Jp4JxN4VXMf7LcoEuxOisU Cc: JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] More on log file formats X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 May 2014 01:28:51 -0000 On Mon, May 5, 2014 at 9:10 PM, Nico Williams wrote: > That's a good point about resynchronization, but I can't think of a > fail safe sequence other than by using forbidden non-characters! > > Your proposed resync sequence doesn't work. Consider this: > > "foo} { > > Nico > -- And I just thought the same thing as soon as I sent the mail. The only way I can see that we could avoid this completely would be to forbid newlines in strings and then resync on '}' *ws CR *ws '{' Actually, JSON already requires control characters to be escaped in strings. So this works fine. -- Website: http://hallambaker.com/ From nobody Mon May 5 20:40:05 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 710A01A06BC for ; Mon, 5 May 2014 20:40:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Cp5WF2qrbraR for ; Mon, 5 May 2014 20:40:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lb0-x22c.google.com (mail-lb0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c04::22c]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D220E1A06B8 for ; Mon, 5 May 2014 20:40:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lb0-f172.google.com with SMTP id l4so2197446lbv.17 for ; Mon, 05 May 2014 20:39:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=30z1hzT1H1V7H+qFrUVnk/q9ZHGPr+OmB+DV8fIQ0kM=; b=rcfMiZ/KObOv8wTN1fFWjHekkxCC8Q4gq1cZBhAJiRhQPxgmmVONzY+hkcBWWYQAX0 UMFcIlp5BYCkA1xMv5HaCJz9xdn8zLqfQs3l5KacIfeTRDmUfNfYrsmAJwFx62wXp35N I7U2STh8Y7B4AsLo354u+6oYAPQD5Y5Eqi37bxv4pgghgjSVZN72llemGauOrq0doK80 ej2NDDPPX+jZgQJVGvm8v+CoeJ/uShFFOgC0C1jvlXmTXaASKPned8xpZT3B6pgJhN4J eaoy4/31n8ti3O2CnXosWnkHaSwRTQjjeIB/3xJm9pWecaGEddb8HspUcvaOjLPuY+y6 eM6g== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.154.102 with SMTP id vn6mr168682lbb.55.1399347597549; Mon, 05 May 2014 20:39:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.112.234.229 with HTTP; Mon, 5 May 2014 20:39:57 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 5 May 2014 23:39:57 -0400 Message-ID: From: Phillip Hallam-Baker To: JSON WG Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/UI1IGPWdDI9G4Az_1D1e10CQzh0 Subject: [Json] JSON Log file encoding JSON-L X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 May 2014 03:40:03 -0000 This encoding is based on JSON but for reasons explained in the draft is not pure JSON. Instead a JSON log is a sequence of JSON objects separated by newline characters. There is clearly a need for a way to use JSON in log files. It would be better to have one than many ways. So probably the best next steps would be for people to try it and then go for an independent submission for a MIME type unless people want to do something more formal. This scheme does not address the other major use case raised which is writing configuration files. Configuration files need comments. I think that is a totally different use case to log files though. http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-hallambaker-jsonl/ The spec itself is pretty short. 3. Specification A JSON-L log file consists of a sequence of zero or more JSON objects as specified in [RFC7159] separated by white space that includes at least one newline character. JSON-L-text = *(object x-ws) x-ws = *ws %x0A *ws 3.1. Resynchronization Since control characters are not permitted inside JSON string values and JSON objects MUST be separated by commas inside a JSON array, the sequence '}' *ws LF *ws '{' can only occur at the end of one log entry and the start of the next:' Boundary = end-object x-ws begin-object Not got round to a security considerations yet. -- Website: http://hallambaker.com/ From nobody Tue May 6 00:01:54 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24F381A00FA for ; Tue, 6 May 2014 00:01:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.044 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.044 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FlqQHypir_nj for ; Tue, 6 May 2014 00:01:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a84.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A6251A00BA for ; Tue, 6 May 2014 00:01:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a84.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a84.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A57A1DE070 for ; Tue, 6 May 2014 00:01:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:cc:content-type; s=cryptonector.com; bh=7huoIl43w3vryvQiAmpV v2qCnpI=; b=nJcXvYxDU4XTr27UzICsY/I9P2/qy0WbBtMNy2XywJ2R/AhqojFk S3b/mlJCyeKfZJpDkhz4j92UtX+mK9wjyZrJK7f4UYfVp9Fyhil9jtbMar8WZlbl +d4af+tpWie5ClJTcfBJoD6rK+hoyvXpVmb1qn0zEiZ0FqyiT/F4OKg= Received: from mail-wi0-f173.google.com (mail-wi0-f173.google.com [209.85.212.173]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a84.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4F6CF1DE05D for ; Tue, 6 May 2014 00:01:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wi0-f173.google.com with SMTP id bs8so6723956wib.12 for ; Tue, 06 May 2014 00:01:47 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.77.225 with SMTP id v1mr972497wiw.5.1399359707020; Tue, 06 May 2014 00:01:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.29.200 with HTTP; Tue, 6 May 2014 00:01:46 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 6 May 2014 02:01:46 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: Phillip Hallam-Baker Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/KRu9HgdUg1pDVR6PvQW66ehzfaE Cc: JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] JSON Log file encoding JSON-L X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 May 2014 07:01:53 -0000 For a variety of reasons I would prefer that a log file format based on JSON simply forbid the appearance of unescaped newlines in JSON texts, and otherwise be just JSON sequences: - it's compatible with JSON sequences - it works with line-oriented Unix tools (e.g., wc(1), grep(1), ...) - aesthetically it's nice - it's simpler to resync: just search for the newlines (or EOF, or offset 0) around entries that fail to parse - it's easy to implement because most JSON encoders I've seen (all? I think so) have an option for producing "compact" output, usually/always meaning no whitespace will be emitted between the tokens that make up a JSON text -- just use this feature and that's that - it even works without compact JSON encoding if you're lucky to not have crashes and such Some OSes don't guarantee that writes to files will be completed when a process is SIGKILLed. E.g., recent Linux kernels don't guarantee that more than one byte will be written in that case -- this was well-intentioned in that a process could start an enormous write that an admin might want to stop, but how would they? which is why Linux now allows SIGKILL to terminate incomplete writes. Therefore power failures and system crashes are not the only thing to worry about. Even with non-compact entry encodings, one can always recover with some heuristics, and at some cost. The biggest problem here is the SIGKILL problem. Nico -- From nobody Tue May 6 05:06:07 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B711F1A01C7 for ; Tue, 6 May 2014 05:06:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5TOoBCuBgVVy for ; Tue, 6 May 2014 05:06:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lb0-x230.google.com (mail-lb0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c04::230]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C23A1A0072 for ; Tue, 6 May 2014 05:06:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lb0-f176.google.com with SMTP id p9so2228611lbv.7 for ; Tue, 06 May 2014 05:05:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=Aag6+7Yjn+AHMsW6LwP9hczukOiKicL6rbXw0S8Ymvk=; b=yRgnm1TigHrNJ743kc9mDzugJdpGrsATqUrPHmRnV+/nZdMhDHRRp5UpuPjwGkwr+z ZLy30Hznt6kp/bxV7I+QDqz51Eoy0jLaLI2SBTO4UF/DVIXmD4BxKhQHYtJZBb7+FAty qDrBanlq/DC2wJ0doeudca3o1T/mGl6PNP+WCpnSEJ9hU5tLJdl1aYKqMTbhm9g5NkM+ TZ2bjB11BWWCcqqS4w5JdhQrIJF52r+NeUXDXAZbYv2bj90fAOYdvyViiFr7XeVpPWMu LiUb2Xl4KPqzPdGOyN9LmM2PK0T58TcEuo1mD1u9NpJNmHQJYaxkW4qRhltswCgjQLvZ xxyw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.159.104 with SMTP id xb8mr8256721lbb.31.1399377959563; Tue, 06 May 2014 05:05:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.112.234.229 with HTTP; Tue, 6 May 2014 05:05:59 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 6 May 2014 08:05:59 -0400 Message-ID: From: Phillip Hallam-Baker To: Nico Williams Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/mkkbUhGl8xelaUMBpxXz7kLdrGQ Cc: JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] JSON Log file encoding JSON-L X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 May 2014 12:06:05 -0000 I am against requiring every entry to be a single line. The reason for wanting log entries in JSON is to be able to log structured data. For example a log of updates to a database. Each update could be several tens of KB long. Not allowing newline inside an object requires quite a lot of changes. This does not prevent an application outputting data in a one entry per line format where that is convenient. And I would expect that to be the default for many situations. But making it a requirement seems to assume that the entries are always going to be a screen width long or less. On Tue, May 6, 2014 at 3:01 AM, Nico Williams wrote: > For a variety of reasons I would prefer that a log file format based > on JSON simply forbid the appearance of unescaped newlines in JSON > texts, and otherwise be just JSON sequences: > > - it's compatible with JSON sequences > - it works with line-oriented Unix tools (e.g., wc(1), grep(1), ...) > - aesthetically it's nice > - it's simpler to resync: just search for the newlines (or EOF, or > offset 0) around entries that fail to parse > > - it's easy to implement because most JSON encoders I've seen (all? > I think so) have an option for producing "compact" output, > usually/always meaning no whitespace will be emitted between the > tokens that make up a JSON text -- just use this feature and that's > that > > - it even works without compact JSON encoding if you're lucky to not > have crashes and such > > Some OSes don't guarantee that writes to files will be completed > when a process is SIGKILLed. E.g., recent Linux kernels don't > guarantee that more than one byte will be written in that case -- this > was well-intentioned in that a process could start an enormous write > that an admin might want to stop, but how would they? which is why > Linux now allows SIGKILL to terminate incomplete writes. Therefore > power failures and system crashes are not the only thing to worry > about. > > Even with non-compact entry encodings, one can always recover with > some heuristics, and at some cost. The biggest problem here is the > SIGKILL problem. > > Nico > -- -- Website: http://hallambaker.com/ From nobody Tue May 6 07:20:41 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 034621A032F for ; Tue, 6 May 2014 07:20:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ymcaRvko18Qu for ; Tue, 6 May 2014 07:20:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vc0-f178.google.com (mail-vc0-f178.google.com [209.85.220.178]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAD731A029E for ; Tue, 6 May 2014 07:20:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vc0-f178.google.com with SMTP id hu19so1021409vcb.37 for ; Tue, 06 May 2014 07:20:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=o8YzulRxvkXiUknww7W/VXHuilX1T4vb+ZEex48d6io=; b=DoTHw36p5ko4kpzu4w2Pad+PObgJLKTymVwC+Mb3RRwOVmqezahQzj2fGWOUbHc91e HCwTrFwUrmlPjrQUBNz10WLOD8wVyCF4l7vkEnVReQyaqM39c5qLQyYh0BJ4s+NKiPDz S3Xo3u88q1PtqJQRANa5nFXFURyPFi0fYmbBp8FoX69qq7R4+Xc9OcQvg7GJiTJCcCIL gJh6wBsC91SQHcW0fg7OU5tOj6jNK4PY7JFt+V96MhRxfMMHHQdc71V5XmZRwb/AquGh XRq4jCu4xfgOkSts8TtpUxOrSkCAs5c+kQdIyMbKfUYtoHf0K+n3j2eMFJM4SEbQKFYS xiSA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkij99FaFbb/UEVPs/0TxkFUaC/doGKP/7i7/g3tImHtwoOPlg5E2QIJEtATvZy8mIjnKTP MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.58.126.4 with SMTP id mu4mr33998994veb.0.1399386031766; Tue, 06 May 2014 07:20:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.98.73 with HTTP; Tue, 6 May 2014 07:20:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [24.84.235.32] Received: by 10.220.98.73 with HTTP; Tue, 6 May 2014 07:20:31 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 6 May 2014 07:20:31 -0700 Message-ID: From: Tim Bray To: Nico Williams Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b6700af53e68704f8bbf34e Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/xM1J4mHor8-td3N05faWJlqFTmg Cc: Phillip Hallam-Baker , json@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Json] JSON Log file encoding JSON-L X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 May 2014 14:20:39 -0000 --047d7b6700af53e68704f8bbf34e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 If you want to use line-oriented tools, don't use JSON. The no-newlines rule seems really outside the spirit of JSON. On May 6, 2014 12:01 AM, "Nico Williams" wrote: > For a variety of reasons I would prefer that a log file format based > on JSON simply forbid the appearance of unescaped newlines in JSON > texts, and otherwise be just JSON sequences: > > - it's compatible with JSON sequences > - it works with line-oriented Unix tools (e.g., wc(1), grep(1), ...) > - aesthetically it's nice > - it's simpler to resync: just search for the newlines (or EOF, or > offset 0) around entries that fail to parse > > - it's easy to implement because most JSON encoders I've seen (all? > I think so) have an option for producing "compact" output, > usually/always meaning no whitespace will be emitted between the > tokens that make up a JSON text -- just use this feature and that's > that > > - it even works without compact JSON encoding if you're lucky to not > have crashes and such > > Some OSes don't guarantee that writes to files will be completed > when a process is SIGKILLed. E.g., recent Linux kernels don't > guarantee that more than one byte will be written in that case -- this > was well-intentioned in that a process could start an enormous write > that an admin might want to stop, but how would they? which is why > Linux now allows SIGKILL to terminate incomplete writes. Therefore > power failures and system crashes are not the only thing to worry > about. > > Even with non-compact entry encodings, one can always recover with > some heuristics, and at some cost. The biggest problem here is the > SIGKILL problem. > > Nico > -- > > _______________________________________________ > json mailing list > json@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json > --047d7b6700af53e68704f8bbf34e Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

If you want to use line-oriented tools, don't use JSON.= =C2=A0 The no-newlines rule seems really outside the spirit of JSON.

On May 6, 2014 12:01 AM, "Nico Williams&quo= t; <nico@cryptonector.com&g= t; wrote:
For a variety of reasons I would prefer that a log file format based
on JSON simply forbid the appearance of unescaped newlines in JSON
texts, and otherwise be just JSON sequences:

=C2=A0- it's compatible with JSON sequences
=C2=A0- it works with line-oriented Unix tools (e.g., wc(1), grep(1), ...)<= br> =C2=A0- aesthetically it's nice
=C2=A0- it's simpler to resync: just search for the newlines (or EOF, o= r
offset 0) around entries that fail to parse

=C2=A0- it's easy to implement because most JSON encoders I've seen= (all?
I think so) have an option for producing "compact" output,
usually/always meaning no whitespace will be emitted between the
tokens that make up a JSON text -- just use this feature and that's
that

=C2=A0- it even works without compact JSON encoding if you're lucky to = not
have crashes and such

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Some OSes don't guarantee that writes to files will be com= pleted
when a process is SIGKILLed. =C2=A0E.g., recent Linux kernels don't
guarantee that more than one byte will be written in that case -- this
was well-intentioned in that a process could start an enormous write
that an admin might want to stop, but how would they? which is why
Linux now allows SIGKILL to terminate incomplete writes. =C2=A0Therefore power failures and system crashes are not the only thing to worry
about.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Even with non-compact entry encodings, one can always recover = with
some heuristics, and at some cost. =C2=A0The biggest problem here is the SIGKILL problem.

Nico
--

_______________________________________________
json mailing list
json@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json
--047d7b6700af53e68704f8bbf34e-- From nobody Tue May 6 07:54:48 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D86261A008D for ; Tue, 6 May 2014 07:54:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AD2dsgVi2nGj for ; Tue, 6 May 2014 07:54:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lb0-x232.google.com (mail-lb0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c04::232]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 138A31A035A for ; Tue, 6 May 2014 07:54:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lb0-f178.google.com with SMTP id w7so2335407lbi.23 for ; Tue, 06 May 2014 07:54:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=fqQ7QLy4nR8M5h9kMP132sGzVkRESa+p1LOy7tRE/HQ=; b=cpmUFplWlDCcL6RdZ4KKhnn55FBOsn6p54Tx4gWU74wsyldfRzVfMHanfZbJQQFZQL 018XgyP42t9GwCtjFAroq1eMx8abNRI2TfrlawAUPHctaBlepgvj1QTcgf0eBkyEX2uq sSpK28wPNv5OyLnWm45KYc4bhqneF1xO71AdT1Y4SZp1gjWBgZdyhlPS2fYsE8IZeRgh /EqOC84FUoSKqV8FT3EBfagP1yM+RtMdWb0xouYrQVHfKJbt8Nq4G0HFZHgAITXXOGDy VofE5COcsRRS2iuQbwIsuA5ScxNTvyg5XCcDw25OYKPk9YN9k7omEr/5oh1r30OJNsJ9 hkvQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.113.3.167 with SMTP id bx7mr1213995lbd.64.1399388080485; Tue, 06 May 2014 07:54:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.112.234.229 with HTTP; Tue, 6 May 2014 07:54:40 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 6 May 2014 10:54:40 -0400 Message-ID: From: Phillip Hallam-Baker To: Tim Bray Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/kEMYXtzS5fSS81OpINiNwzmGx_c Cc: Nico Williams , JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] JSON Log file encoding JSON-L X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 May 2014 14:54:47 -0000 If people want line mode then they probably want something like this: http://www.w3.org/TR/WD-logfile.html What I don't like about the W3C log file format is that every entry has to have every column stated. Which makes it rather inconvenient for tracking occasional errors. Most cases I just want to log the source IP and the resource recorded. But if there was something strange going on then I would probably want the full header set and more. If the information is in the logs then people will develop tools to manage them. Its not like grep and its ilk are fixed and immutable. One addition that I should probably make is to reference the W3C specification as one possible source of JSON tags. That way tools can easily support either format: So this: #Version: 1.0 #Date: 12-Jan-1996 00:00:00 #Fields: time cs-method cs-uri 00:34:23 GET /foo/bar.html 12:21:16 GET /foo/bar.html 12:45:52 GET /foo/bar.html 12:57:34 GET /foo/bar.html Would become: { "Version": 1.0, "Date": "12-Jan-1996 00:00:00"} {"time": 00:34:23, " cs-method" : "GET", "cs-uri": "/foo/bar.html} {"time": 12:21:16, " cs-method" : "GET", "cs-uri": "/foo/bar.html} {"time": 12:45:52, " cs-method" : "GET", "cs-uri": "/foo/bar.html} {"time": 12:57:34, " cs-method" : "GET", "cs-uri": "/foo/bar.html} Fun fact: the W3C log file specifies the time as GMT, not UTC and this was not a mistake. At the time there was a possibility that GMT would deviate from UTC by dropping the leap second idiocy and fixing to TAI. Making corrections on the order of fifteen seconds a century is really a piffling waste of time when solar time varies by five minutes over the course of a year. Of course now that the shutdown of ITU is a medium term possibility, this might well be revisited. On Tue, May 6, 2014 at 10:20 AM, Tim Bray wrote: > If you want to use line-oriented tools, don't use JSON. The no-newlines > rule seems really outside the spirit of JSON. > > On May 6, 2014 12:01 AM, "Nico Williams" wrote: >> >> For a variety of reasons I would prefer that a log file format based >> on JSON simply forbid the appearance of unescaped newlines in JSON >> texts, and otherwise be just JSON sequences: >> >> - it's compatible with JSON sequences >> - it works with line-oriented Unix tools (e.g., wc(1), grep(1), ...) >> - aesthetically it's nice >> - it's simpler to resync: just search for the newlines (or EOF, or >> offset 0) around entries that fail to parse >> >> - it's easy to implement because most JSON encoders I've seen (all? >> I think so) have an option for producing "compact" output, >> usually/always meaning no whitespace will be emitted between the >> tokens that make up a JSON text -- just use this feature and that's >> that >> >> - it even works without compact JSON encoding if you're lucky to not >> have crashes and such >> >> Some OSes don't guarantee that writes to files will be completed >> when a process is SIGKILLed. E.g., recent Linux kernels don't >> guarantee that more than one byte will be written in that case -- this >> was well-intentioned in that a process could start an enormous write >> that an admin might want to stop, but how would they? which is why >> Linux now allows SIGKILL to terminate incomplete writes. Therefore >> power failures and system crashes are not the only thing to worry >> about. >> >> Even with non-compact entry encodings, one can always recover with >> some heuristics, and at some cost. The biggest problem here is the >> SIGKILL problem. >> >> Nico >> -- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> json mailing list >> json@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json -- Website: http://hallambaker.com/ From nobody Tue May 6 11:52:17 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A98C51A0234 for ; Tue, 6 May 2014 11:52:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JnJ4gFHYbPMG for ; Tue, 6 May 2014 11:52:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lb0-x234.google.com (mail-lb0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c04::234]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14C4B1A01C4 for ; Tue, 6 May 2014 11:52:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lb0-f180.google.com with SMTP id p9so3072832lbv.11 for ; Tue, 06 May 2014 11:52:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=Y58ZAkApop88lkTHFqdvm9cQVRTVXZl6LX2UNUilsOk=; b=KXyybuWd3jaGJerf1QhxdlNW7r/rrO1ntmflQJ6pHmYO/Z4ufDe4TX69eEzVrGY/QK pALQ+txeBnaXF7eWInIrhyB523PEtGE849Uzw4wlqMBYdAH1BNhIfih9YMmayQgFCQdq 9QGoNFOGZSNB3uaYMAl7XhhiYCYmRxNDvi6gS9+MaYCM7RbsuBouMPw58pJZyiw6Mh/f OwVMQmHBTzs+6rVJM4fwwUbErv99mICc+mU3ddiPv9DTsRBSJRIUbJMwgu7piO9H+ztp gcU/ZUQ6/Jzm3GO4v8FNXo9CDjIldZ6EKPM2Zh+P0NWqcRPueqcVzV6uBiaT7KJ6GLMP 0uYw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.61.199 with SMTP id s7mr33852067lbr.25.1399402330453; Tue, 06 May 2014 11:52:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.112.234.229 with HTTP; Tue, 6 May 2014 11:52:10 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 6 May 2014 14:52:10 -0400 Message-ID: From: Phillip Hallam-Baker To: JSON WG Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/7XPy0Ln7s7IHAuBCH3xNotX-4o0 Subject: [Json] Updated draft to JSON-L X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 May 2014 18:52:16 -0000 All, I just updated the JSON-L draft to * Add a security considerations (same as for JSON, i.e. don't be a doofus) * Put in a reference to W3C extended log format so people can make use of the same tags. JSON does look a lot better than the W3C format when dealing with a lot of tags per entry. But is is rather more verbose. What I mostly want this for is to dump updates to a database to a file for purposes of maintaining persistence etc. But being able to log in JSON looks like a win. If it turns out that space becomes an issue, one option would be to use something like JSON-C which supports compression. Most log files are going to report the same URLs over and over... -- Website: http://hallambaker.com/ From nobody Tue May 6 12:22:13 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01C061A03A8 for ; Tue, 6 May 2014 12:22:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.251 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.251 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wlezM13CCxZy for ; Tue, 6 May 2014 12:22:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B6F61A02BD for ; Tue, 6 May 2014 12:22:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1WhkwF-0006jV-Da; Tue, 06 May 2014 15:22:03 -0400 Date: Tue, 6 May 2014 15:22:03 -0400 From: John Cowan To: Tim Bray Message-ID: <20140506192203.GT5011@mercury.ccil.org> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Sender: John Cowan Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/F2U9mWPqUIAD8gGp7VagLDT9zns Cc: Nico Williams , Phillip Hallam-Baker , json@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Json] JSON Log file encoding JSON-L X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 May 2014 19:22:12 -0000 Tim Bray scripsit: > If you want to use line-oriented tools, don't use JSON. The no-newlines > rule seems really outside the spirit of JSON. I think they fit together quite well, with each line a separate JSON value. It's not like it's hard to eliminate whitespace newlines and escape significant ones (if any) when doing JSON output. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org The present impossibility of giving a scientific explanation is no proof that there is no scientific explanation. The unexplained is not to be identified with the unexplainable, and the strange and extraordinary nature of a fact is not a justification for attributing it to powers above nature. --The Catholic Encyclopedia, s.v. "telepathy" (1913) From nobody Tue May 6 12:24:34 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C591F1A0332 for ; Tue, 6 May 2014 12:24:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.251 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.251 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id L0R6PfeZ1rrA for ; Tue, 6 May 2014 12:24:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C54AE1A03E1 for ; Tue, 6 May 2014 12:24:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1WhkyW-0006zA-UL; Tue, 06 May 2014 15:24:25 -0400 Date: Tue, 6 May 2014 15:24:24 -0400 From: John Cowan To: Phillip Hallam-Baker Message-ID: <20140506192424.GV5011@mercury.ccil.org> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Sender: John Cowan Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/OUR3eO2ouayOtVCfV_Od_7LXP-c Cc: Nico Williams , JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] JSON Log file encoding JSON-L X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 May 2014 19:24:32 -0000 Phillip Hallam-Baker scripsit: > The reason for wanting log entries in JSON is to be able to log > structured data. For example a log of updates to a database. Each > update could be several tens of KB long. Agreed, but modern GNU or BSD tools can handle pretty much unlimited line lengths nowadays. > Not allowing newline inside an object requires quite a lot of changes. Not really. For whitespace newlines, it's just a matter of not generating them. For newlines in strings, just add them to the list of characters which must be escaped anyway. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org Arise, you prisoners of Windows / Arise, you slaves of Redmond, Wash, The day and hour soon are coming / When all the IT folks say "Gosh!" It isn't from a clever lawsuit / That Windowsland will finally fall, But thousands writing open source code / Like mice who nibble through a wall. --The Linux-nationale by Greg Baker From nobody Tue May 6 12:39:10 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8C461A01BA for ; Tue, 6 May 2014 12:39:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.044 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.044 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3LQaua0VRaI5 for ; Tue, 6 May 2014 12:39:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a32.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20B3D1A018D for ; Tue, 6 May 2014 12:39:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a32.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a32.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44ACC584056 for ; Tue, 6 May 2014 12:39:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:cc:content-type; s=cryptonector.com; bh=McqoRLTlWYyIpYu5Op64 JlRN0zY=; b=HZbsNJKUnpkI5bIiasdIsDwh3uOnWTup8uA7G+7lCGvHVM0D2PR0 FqVmjrqeFbE8kNmr1aCmf+ZWiVq2mIV1lXHwLkz1M9doyOD7I2enaKh1fdIt/TSw KQR1Aupc3f4Bd9WBOBqKekC/dmXGQsVDuZf9/ByYSldzYz8UZactOeI= Received: from mail-wi0-f177.google.com (mail-wi0-f177.google.com [209.85.212.177]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a32.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DF0FA584055 for ; Tue, 6 May 2014 12:39:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wi0-f177.google.com with SMTP id f8so137371wiw.10 for ; Tue, 06 May 2014 12:39:01 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.119.34 with SMTP id kr2mr13764484wjb.34.1399405141418; Tue, 06 May 2014 12:39:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.29.200 with HTTP; Tue, 6 May 2014 12:39:01 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 6 May 2014 14:39:01 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: Phillip Hallam-Baker Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/RRgY9oMREBL0X_GDGKyilb_w5gI Cc: JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] JSON Log file encoding JSON-L X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 May 2014 19:39:07 -0000 On Tue, May 6, 2014 at 7:05 AM, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: > I am against requiring every entry to be a single line. I didn't say "require". Given that newlines can only happen outside strings in JSON texts, and if all entries are surrounded by newlines (effectively; more on this below), then recovery from incomplete writes is feasible even without requiring that no newlines appear within a text: j = json_loadf(input_file); if (json_is_error(j)) readline(input_file); /* discard to EOL */ That in a loop, of course. It's not perfect, but if you really want to not lose entries then you won't O_APPEND them -- O_APPEND's semantics are too loose. Every text should be prefixed with a newline. > The reason for wanting log entries in JSON is to be able to log > structured data. For example a log of updates to a database. Each > update could be several tens of KB long. Yes of course. A write could be large enough to tempt a sysadmin to SIGKILL the writer, leading to truncated entries. > Not allowing newline inside an object requires quite a lot of changes. Not at all. First, you can just apply s/\n//g to the JSON text, thus not requiring _any_ special encoder features. Second, Jansson, json-c, libjv (part of jq), all support "compact" encoding, and I suspect most encoders do too. Nico -- From nobody Tue May 6 12:41:58 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBF461A018D for ; Tue, 6 May 2014 12:41:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.044 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.044 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BPc2EL8_p3Cg for ; Tue, 6 May 2014 12:41:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a74.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 497331A016C for ; Tue, 6 May 2014 12:41:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a74.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a74.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D37567C06B for ; Tue, 6 May 2014 12:41:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:cc:content-type; s=cryptonector.com; bh=TwBSj8XDuvzZPGwv221/ tDjKWno=; b=gezGqvrXanC2eiHh/gBSVDuLc5aWT+YM92A7tHjDSog8bukOAowh UGfVXesC62If9BQhAs66F8dimejiWR12z5t9z17r7OU/TzI9hnepjgunAIIufho6 DbCw5vkP5WlpaH5vnTkq4RzI6In0dC4aRHnP4ZcXdfTyEKoDUzWupAk= Received: from mail-wg0-f51.google.com (mail-wg0-f51.google.com [74.125.82.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a74.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4F4C567C057 for ; Tue, 6 May 2014 12:41:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wg0-f51.google.com with SMTP id x13so3405187wgg.22 for ; Tue, 06 May 2014 12:41:51 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.221.8 with SMTP id qa8mr3900984wic.39.1399405311033; Tue, 06 May 2014 12:41:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.29.200 with HTTP; Tue, 6 May 2014 12:41:50 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20140506192203.GT5011@mercury.ccil.org> References: <20140506192203.GT5011@mercury.ccil.org> Date: Tue, 6 May 2014 14:41:50 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: John Cowan Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/FKZjkBPpDlShNxykIC0ChkkNTI4 Cc: Phillip Hallam-Baker , Tim Bray , "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] JSON Log file encoding JSON-L X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 May 2014 19:41:57 -0000 On Tue, May 6, 2014 at 2:22 PM, John Cowan wrote: > Tim Bray scripsit: >> If you want to use line-oriented tools, don't use JSON. The no-newlines >> rule seems really outside the spirit of JSON. > > I think they fit together quite well, with each line a separate JSON > value. It's not like it's hard to eliminate whitespace newlines and > escape significant ones (if any) when doing JSON output. Right. Eliminating internal newlines in JSON texts is just an s/\n//g! But I wouldn't require it, just encourage it, at least as long as we can develop a heuristic for recovering from truncated writes (see separate reply). But I'd be OK with requiring it too since s/\n//g is trivial. Nico -- From nobody Tue May 6 13:42:39 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 180091A03D3 for ; Tue, 6 May 2014 13:42:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VRkc33eLIo0u for ; Tue, 6 May 2014 13:42:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C449C1A03EE for ; Tue, 6 May 2014 13:42:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s46KgPIs005141 for ; Tue, 6 May 2014 22:42:25 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.217.145] (p54892947.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.137.41.71]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 39F041381; Tue, 6 May 2014 22:42:25 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.2 \(1874\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 6 May 2014 22:42:23 +0200 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 421101743.148251-9f2a9b633461b73751b7687820c49517 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: To: JSON WG X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1874) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/bjv0LS_EQuqxKkoj8mk2qpHXCPM Subject: Re: [Json] JSON Log file encoding JSON-L X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 May 2014 20:42:37 -0000 > separated There is some exciting technology for information separators that is = documented in RFC 20, in particular in the penultimate paragraph of its = section 5.2. Transfers right to RFC 3629 without any problems, and works very well = with unrestricted JSON texts. Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten PS.: Yes, I have briefly worked with Qunix/QNX in the early 1980s. From nobody Tue May 6 14:57:20 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DC901A0535 for ; Tue, 6 May 2014 14:57:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.044 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.044 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BOHFUFWgJXZt for ; Tue, 6 May 2014 14:57:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a24.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE89C1A0357 for ; Tue, 6 May 2014 14:57:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a24.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a24.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 037D52C806B for ; Tue, 6 May 2014 14:57:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:cc:content-type; s=cryptonector.com; bh=9lhkr9qexG17ZC375XWV YhWVa54=; b=PX/XeDoMRCF/4rzaWCxtliVcaORONyDARJTbBrh1acr8lsZaIoIV A+YaLWZwLkaKGU/vQgC5K9hNdiwprbeK4wHg9qjj/vm/y1hrb/JSBLHf2e95JeDY OHHZAkZOdRI8Fqf4VVkWwosO3axnwiIEeGi0iBzamesqiSUONUW1LSA= Received: from mail-wi0-f175.google.com (mail-wi0-f175.google.com [209.85.212.175]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a24.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id AC6D02C8058 for ; Tue, 6 May 2014 14:57:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wi0-f175.google.com with SMTP id f8so4312350wiw.8 for ; Tue, 06 May 2014 14:57:11 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.19.161 with SMTP id g1mr34669129wje.20.1399413431577; Tue, 06 May 2014 14:57:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.29.200 with HTTP; Tue, 6 May 2014 14:57:11 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 6 May 2014 16:57:11 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: Carsten Bormann Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/UykeyvVAaDv9cC1nBr5xeIubHVg Cc: JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] JSON Log file encoding JSON-L X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 May 2014 21:57:18 -0000 On Tue, May 6, 2014 at 3:42 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote: >> separated > > There is some exciting technology for information separators that is documented in RFC 20, in particular in the penultimate paragraph of its section 5.2. > Transfers right to RFC 3629 without any problems, and works very well with unrestricted JSON texts. Oh, that's funny. I like it! (We've become so accustomed to not having a use for FS/GS/RS/US that we've forgotten about them. Or at least I have.) Nico -- From nobody Tue May 6 17:15:39 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 982571A072D for ; Tue, 6 May 2014 17:15:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.044 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.044 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3AWRWGNPeYN7 for ; Tue, 6 May 2014 17:15:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a102.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51FC81A06C4 for ; Tue, 6 May 2014 17:15:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a102.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a102.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80E842006D30C for ; Tue, 6 May 2014 17:15:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:cc:content-type; s=cryptonector.com; bh=DfnVJq8IMf94T5bhevrt /Lld0d4=; b=GIQJyD+97MG82RCMI2AHOy2v4RYwo5SSypBwmvpLjEqIGy/88rXq rUjlzWr+UcMeXFDcJO+6MOFTX70SPZ73qMThSx/TrVFDr/dNdwloTx7s46K3F74n VmuVzfy91tjLT+0gVevSkrEY9aNK3kX2jzkc44V3ElGbzNs3hmhka+k= Received: from mail-wi0-f175.google.com (mail-wi0-f175.google.com [209.85.212.175]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a102.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 36BC02006D30E for ; Tue, 6 May 2014 17:15:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wi0-f175.google.com with SMTP id f8so4424490wiw.14 for ; Tue, 06 May 2014 17:15:15 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.181.5.6 with SMTP id ci6mr23228474wid.39.1399421715216; Tue, 06 May 2014 17:15:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.29.200 with HTTP; Tue, 6 May 2014 17:15:15 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 6 May 2014 19:15:15 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: Carsten Bormann Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/UysxcMBCtBbPhfkkutrRoZBnibU Cc: JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] JSON Log file encoding JSON-L X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 May 2014 00:15:35 -0000 Thank you Carsten. I think I'll do the following: a) add RS to the whitespace list for JSON text sequence separators, b) RECOMMEND surrounding JSON texts with RS in log-like sequences. Then JSON sequences will be meet the needs of logs. Nico -- From nobody Tue May 6 17:38:22 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E7C11A0725 for ; Tue, 6 May 2014 17:38:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ccgw5WdSrH57 for ; Tue, 6 May 2014 17:38:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lb0-x235.google.com (mail-lb0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c04::235]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8A0B1A071D for ; Tue, 6 May 2014 17:38:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lb0-f181.google.com with SMTP id u14so313669lbd.26 for ; Tue, 06 May 2014 17:38:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=+Ws3BTdWDuS0R+gQarN7i+xSLcanaw4eMO1+wQjpo9I=; b=sVpWjaWHMGquLOyvN9gttos5XkpzQdFh4oTvzRcCRJlQVQKdDmvdGex4ozjJfaLFyb 0HXtuojvXxq0rdFIX4lyiotBxLx/6/wGwyByFYj6lmlxoPKyNdlchRpVdzC8xr/xQe8Q wELAmI0FmHMOwFC3QTSBaPWHs9TIEsgYW36dml5VBAiQvy8BO+tzvyj7pS8ON1dZgjJT FabHWfpG4PF9ZQ230zYOamPlUpjolMBZsq3wLXMjZY1z+0rGC8B00zJqy+Laj3KTbRfw 3re2QOLdMYPSdA/++b62gcJCOHLpPwHI23LHCx9ezX+ceAiGzNPapWihKXW/Ye9ndSMT m48A== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.72.137 with SMTP id d9mr35302773lbv.19.1399423094066; Tue, 06 May 2014 17:38:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.112.234.229 with HTTP; Tue, 6 May 2014 17:38:13 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 6 May 2014 20:38:13 -0400 Message-ID: From: Phillip Hallam-Baker To: Nico Williams Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/8IW5dXf04X51UjjhrvBnOArmwXU Cc: Carsten Bormann , JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] JSON Log file encoding JSON-L X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 May 2014 00:38:20 -0000 If you use RS it will be impossible to generate these logs in a text editor. That is a show stopper for me. On Tue, May 6, 2014 at 8:15 PM, Nico Williams wrote: > Thank you Carsten. I think I'll do the following: a) add RS to the > whitespace list for JSON text sequence separators, b) RECOMMEND > surrounding JSON texts with RS in log-like sequences. Then JSON > sequences will be meet the needs of logs. > > Nico > -- > > _______________________________________________ > json mailing list > json@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json -- Website: http://hallambaker.com/ From nobody Tue May 6 17:47:04 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA2041A03F8 for ; Tue, 6 May 2014 17:47:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.044 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.044 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XE0HccGaGP67 for ; Tue, 6 May 2014 17:47:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a29.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 720CF1A03C6 for ; Tue, 6 May 2014 17:47:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a29.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a29.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA60C674060 for ; Tue, 6 May 2014 17:46:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:cc:content-type; s=cryptonector.com; bh=GXgv+L0Rf0i+YWLbA+EV FNL6oFU=; b=mrnUqiERdV1QPprNOt0CxeMM1UvXL+9bO29+X3uc8hctm9fMGB5h xDnfr+sWXE3l2DhZRLUSUrZ/4wvYXMeBhrCggzK+9kx6AQNkNU9FMGhL4kXPkIk8 +niTOyQY0hWX4qkVfyEBWji5qhfMd3SVBo+bYQuUtBSfjL/xtP1Ok0U= Received: from mail-wi0-f177.google.com (mail-wi0-f177.google.com [209.85.212.177]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a29.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 53397674058 for ; Tue, 6 May 2014 17:46:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wi0-f177.google.com with SMTP id f8so467171wiw.10 for ; Tue, 06 May 2014 17:46:57 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.221.8 with SMTP id qa8mr4863912wic.39.1399423617219; Tue, 06 May 2014 17:46:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.29.200 with HTTP; Tue, 6 May 2014 17:46:57 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 6 May 2014 19:46:57 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: Phillip Hallam-Baker Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/EUpJhNrU1vjLwrgxl2WCDfF52wI Cc: Carsten Bormann , JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] JSON Log file encoding JSON-L X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 May 2014 00:47:03 -0000 On Tue, May 6, 2014 at 7:38 PM, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: > If you use RS it will be impossible to generate these logs in a text editor. Eh? I can do it in my $EDITOR. ^V > That is a show stopper for me. You... generate logs with $EDITOR?! Nico -- From nobody Tue May 6 18:19:04 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A435F1A0220 for ; Tue, 6 May 2014 18:19:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.251 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.251 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id O4Spi9Hb7MCD for ; Tue, 6 May 2014 18:19:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4333B1A0451 for ; Tue, 6 May 2014 18:19:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1WhqVZ-0001oN-Fs; Tue, 06 May 2014 21:18:53 -0400 Date: Tue, 6 May 2014 21:18:53 -0400 From: John Cowan To: Phillip Hallam-Baker Message-ID: <20140507011853.GA5011@mercury.ccil.org> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Sender: John Cowan Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/e0H47_MJKFuM2CZ8ZyJt5esr5A4 Cc: Nico Williams , Carsten Bormann , JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] JSON Log file encoding JSON-L X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 May 2014 01:19:02 -0000 Phillip Hallam-Baker scripsit: > If you use RS it will be impossible to generate these logs in a > text editor. Here's one I generated in "ex", which is a text editor: [=1E]. --=20 John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led. And through the air. I am he that walks unseen. I am the clue-finder, the web-cutter, the stinging fly. I was chosen for the lucky number. --Bil= bo From nobody Tue May 6 19:05:10 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FD931A04BA for ; Tue, 6 May 2014 19:05:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 29x8vUQnmDuA for ; Tue, 6 May 2014 19:05:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lb0-x229.google.com (mail-lb0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c04::229]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3C131A04CA for ; Tue, 6 May 2014 19:05:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lb0-f169.google.com with SMTP id s7so412151lbd.28 for ; Tue, 06 May 2014 19:05:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=0EUyBDbyBiOrTx5ocY/PqqPAUlwnz3WcPD35VcpyzBA=; b=eiUrY9plB5C95VzdqygUZyx+KJhr7HndKQUc5VZxPsvNh9loxQ0zniiEOdAEmEH5YO ORWkHuXQgNESUqpEKUVBE3yzJZomQHu/QFf0luCmNzZV2Mg61DqEXEW8cMELA/4hoR8P LZazgS7BSvRmcg6T473HhrQsJ5Iid0YAdi2xSrTAy13SB1TSqUB5od6Ucp+Atdwc3BLi HwpeznhEp9+MaYdCaVGXxYmNYdaCmgd9146RYl5wGdmfNLfcG3shADPC/V3MXD1QvfYO zeSXttDioWovLwy0ri9YIHIrU2WAPjNyEEHh6v1SjL/4CKAKCnw3P+ooejBSvWXd08md SRoA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.4.106 with SMTP id j10mr28291662lbj.7.1399428301268; Tue, 06 May 2014 19:05:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.112.234.229 with HTTP; Tue, 6 May 2014 19:05:01 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20140507011853.GA5011@mercury.ccil.org> References: <20140507011853.GA5011@mercury.ccil.org> Date: Tue, 6 May 2014 22:05:01 -0400 Message-ID: From: Phillip Hallam-Baker To: John Cowan Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/ybIsG_CoEqLkYtF_oqCJYEAj9WA Cc: Nico Williams , Carsten Bormann , JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] JSON Log file encoding JSON-L X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 May 2014 02:05:08 -0000 And how do you know where these control characters are? If we are going to start using obscure ASCII control characters then we might as well co all binary. Trying to make use of them is going to make printers and all sorts of editors barf. Being able to read them in one or two editors is not enough. If it is going to be any use then they have to work in 100% of the editors already out there. On Tue, May 6, 2014 at 9:18 PM, John Cowan wrote: > Phillip Hallam-Baker scripsit: > >> If you use RS it will be impossible to generate these logs in a >> text editor. > > Here's one I generated in "ex", which is a text editor: [ ]. > > -- > John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org > I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths > led. And through the air. I am he that walks unseen. I am the clue-finder, > the web-cutter, the stinging fly. I was chosen for the lucky number. --Bilbo -- Website: http://hallambaker.com/ From nobody Tue May 6 19:05:32 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FCBF1A053B for ; Tue, 6 May 2014 19:05:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.202 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.202 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_AU=0.377, HOST_EQ_AU=0.327, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RELAY_IS_203=0.994] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id O9U0OD_ALTbK for ; Tue, 6 May 2014 19:05:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ipxbno.tcif.telstra.com.au (ipxbno.tcif.telstra.com.au [203.35.82.204]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24B401A0538 for ; Tue, 6 May 2014 19:05:28 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.97,1000,1389704400"; d="scan'208";a="7446909" Received: from unknown (HELO ipcani.tcif.telstra.com.au) ([10.97.216.200]) by ipobni.tcif.telstra.com.au with ESMTP; 07 May 2014 11:57:02 +1000 X-IronPort-AV: E=McAfee;i="5600,1067,7430"; a="172419441" Received: from wsmsg3707.srv.dir.telstra.com ([172.49.40.81]) by ipcani.tcif.telstra.com.au with ESMTP; 07 May 2014 12:05:11 +1000 Received: from WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com ([172.49.40.159]) by wsmsg3707.srv.dir.telstra.com ([172.49.40.81]) with mapi; Wed, 7 May 2014 12:05:11 +1000 From: "Manger, James" To: Nico Williams , Phillip Hallam-Baker Date: Wed, 7 May 2014 12:05:10 +1000 Thread-Topic: [Json] JSON Log file encoding JSON-L Thread-Index: Ac9piYYghbprsq1jQ1GDUqEL5Bj/KQAAJPaw Message-ID: <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E11545BD241D@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US, en-AU Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US, en-AU Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/ZgFAMhBKi0QfgBWzuftlM0HootU Cc: JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] JSON Log file encoding JSON-L X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 May 2014 02:05:31 -0000 PiBUaGFuayB5b3UgQ2Fyc3Rlbi4gIEkgdGhpbmsgSSdsbCBkbyB0aGUgZm9sbG93aW5nOiBhKSBh ZGQgUlMgdG8gdGhlDQp3aGl0ZXNwYWNlIGxpc3QgZm9yIEpTT04gdGV4dCBzZXF1ZW5jZSBzZXBh cmF0b3JzLCBiKSBSRUNPTU1FTkQNCnN1cnJvdW5kaW5nIEpTT04gdGV4dHMgd2l0aCBSUyBpbiBs b2ctbGlrZSBzZXF1ZW5jZXMuICBUaGVuIEpTT04NCnNlcXVlbmNlcyB3aWxsIGJlIG1lZXQgdGhl IG5lZWRzIG9mIGxvZ3MuDQoNCkRvbuKAmXQgZG8gdGhhdC4gU3VyZWx5IG5vIG9uZSB1c2VzIFJT IGFueW1vcmU7IGFuZCBjZXJ0YWlubHkgbm8gb25lIHdobyB1c2VzIEpTT04uIEl0IGRvZXNuJ3Qg bWFrZSBtdWNoIHNlbnNlIHRvIHVzZSBTRVBBUkFUT1IgVFdPIHdpdGhvdXQgdXNpbmcgT05FLCBU SFJFRSBhbmQgRk9VUi4NCg0KW1JTID0gUmVjb3JkIFNlcGFyYXRvciA9IFUrMDAxRSA9IElORk9S TUFUSU9OIFNFUEFSQVRPUiBUV09dDQoNCg0KV2Ugbm93IGhhdmUgTmljb+KAmXMgSlNPTiBUZXh0 IFNlcXVlbmNlcyBbZHJhZnQtd2lsbGlhbXMtanNvbi10ZXh0LXNlcXVlbmNlXSwNCmFuZCBQaGls bGlw4oCZcyBKU09OIExvZyBGb3JtYXQgKEpTT04tTCkgW2RyYWZ0LWhhbGxhbWJha2VyLWpzb25s XS4NCg0KVGhleSBhcmUgYmFzaWNhbGx5IHRoZSBzYW1lLiBDYW4gd2UganVzdCBrZWVwIG9uZT8g UHJvYmFibHkgdGhlIG1vcmUgZ2VuZXJpYyBKU09OIFRleHQgU2VxdWVuY2VzLiANCkEgSlNPTi1M IGlzIGEgSlNPTiBUZXh0IFNlcXVlbmNlcyB3aGVyZSBlYWNoIGl0ZW0gaXMgYW4gb2JqZWN0Lg0K SWYgYSBzcGVjaWZpYyBsb2cgc3BlYyBpcyBuZWNlc3NhcnkgKGVnIHdhbnQgdG8gc3RhbmRhcmRp c2UgbG9nIGVudHJ5IGVsZW1lbnRzIGxpa2UgInRpbWUiKSBpdCBjb3VsZCBzYXkgImEgSlNPTi1M IGxvZyBpcyBhIEpTT04gVGV4dCBTZXF1ZW5jZSwgd2hlcmUgdGhlIGl0ZW1zIE1VU1QgYmUgb2Jq ZWN0cyBhbmQgdGhlc2UgY29tbW9uIGVsZW1lbnRzIGFyZSBkZWZpbmVkOiB0aW1lLCAuLi4iLg0K DQotLQ0KSmFtZXMgTWFuZ2VyDQo= From nobody Tue May 6 19:16:23 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A2361A04BA for ; Tue, 6 May 2014 19:16:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wVNtoZROpQkP for ; Tue, 6 May 2014 19:16:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lb0-x234.google.com (mail-lb0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c04::234]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA5C31A0479 for ; Tue, 6 May 2014 19:16:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lb0-f180.google.com with SMTP id p9so413335lbv.39 for ; Tue, 06 May 2014 19:16:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=UABl1wLaQG3G+ox2+JWy/wMKcckTmOm0WrEUtavlpxs=; b=bxdPCdlJC9CzHzr6ocDBvAaWuQNYhauyzIpsgt6KlU3KAQJ42Vlur/kk5Mb7OPRXPD fM3PI6U8elSWePy1EGmKEfHhAlYjvGjinsLhk9uFZBOkv/Z7uVtZPNicDW1aGRvgctyT 0ZkF0GQMqxbtMPNb3i1sfLaUNDfaMIxgDVA+7VQpvGHIPEueENPSrWUrq4QnENPfL2kf MdeOU72Wem2RRssV5ubK3d+4cOnwpzO7nZYjfOCpcl9GVE1LoP/fCPtYBy4wlxw7tJqP MDHgAyYLtS36VWJFfOid5ce3LivfAu9CuRD9Ptr2Dm0cqBI3X7P4CwCnyltOjskWHRLC 6Zaw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.218.74 with SMTP id pe10mr11119055lbc.3.1399428974013; Tue, 06 May 2014 19:16:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.112.234.229 with HTTP; Tue, 6 May 2014 19:16:13 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E11545BD241D@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> References: <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E11545BD241D@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> Date: Tue, 6 May 2014 22:16:13 -0400 Message-ID: From: Phillip Hallam-Baker To: "Manger, James" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/HilOofei_U5UMV8i7TByQviXR3A Cc: Nico Williams , JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] JSON Log file encoding JSON-L X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 May 2014 02:16:20 -0000 We do? Ooops. Didn't see the other draft. I think the discussion moved on a bit from Nico's. He has a lot of discussion I think we have solid reasons to make decisions on. Importing WD-logfile tags seems like a win to me (but I might be biased). On Tue, May 6, 2014 at 10:05 PM, Manger, James wrote: >> Thank you Carsten. I think I'll do the following: a) add RS to the > whitespace list for JSON text sequence separators, b) RECOMMEND > surrounding JSON texts with RS in log-like sequences. Then JSON > sequences will be meet the needs of logs. > > Don=E2=80=99t do that. Surely no one uses RS anymore; and certainly no on= e who uses JSON. It doesn't make much sense to use SEPARATOR TWO without us= ing ONE, THREE and FOUR. > > [RS =3D Record Separator =3D U+001E =3D INFORMATION SEPARATOR TWO] > > > We now have Nico=E2=80=99s JSON Text Sequences [draft-williams-json-text-= sequence], > and Phillip=E2=80=99s JSON Log Format (JSON-L) [draft-hallambaker-jsonl]. > > They are basically the same. Can we just keep one? Probably the more gene= ric JSON Text Sequences. > A JSON-L is a JSON Text Sequences where each item is an object. > If a specific log spec is necessary (eg want to standardise log entry ele= ments like "time") it could say "a JSON-L log is a JSON Text Sequence, wher= e the items MUST be objects and these common elements are defined: time, ..= .". > > -- > James Manger --=20 Website: http://hallambaker.com/ From nobody Tue May 6 19:43:25 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F7B91A04CA for ; Tue, 6 May 2014 19:43:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.202 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.202 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_AU=0.377, HOST_EQ_AU=0.327, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RELAY_IS_203=0.994] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4QUM3cL_kT-Q for ; Tue, 6 May 2014 19:43:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ipxavo.tcif.telstra.com.au (ipxavo.tcif.telstra.com.au [203.35.135.200]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C87B11A0479 for ; Tue, 6 May 2014 19:43:21 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.97,1000,1389704400"; d="scan'208";a="198294024" Received: from unknown (HELO ipcdvi.tcif.telstra.com.au) ([10.97.217.212]) by ipoavi.tcif.telstra.com.au with ESMTP; 07 May 2014 12:43:17 +1000 X-IronPort-AV: E=McAfee;i="5600,1067,7430"; a="221390881" Received: from wsmsg3705.srv.dir.telstra.com ([172.49.40.203]) by ipcdvi.tcif.telstra.com.au with ESMTP; 07 May 2014 12:43:16 +1000 Received: from WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com ([172.49.40.159]) by WSMSG3705.srv.dir.telstra.com ([172.49.40.203]) with mapi; Wed, 7 May 2014 12:43:16 +1000 From: "Manger, James" To: Phillip Hallam-Baker Date: Wed, 7 May 2014 12:43:16 +1000 Thread-Topic: [Json] JSON Log file encoding JSON-L Thread-Index: Ac9pmlhqlJlrbPyLQnmnyAZNurwG7QAANT/A Message-ID: <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E11545BD2502@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> References: <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E11545BD241D@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US, en-AU Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US, en-AU Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/AHrf1fg1G1oPdi0F9D3zZvZIFvU Cc: JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] JSON Log file encoding JSON-L X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 May 2014 02:43:23 -0000 Pj4gV2Ugbm93IGhhdmUgTmljb+KAmXMgSlNPTiBUZXh0IFNlcXVlbmNlcyBbZHJhZnQtd2lsbGlh bXMtanNvbi10ZXh0LXNlcXVlbmNlXSwNCj4+IGFuZCBQaGlsbGlw4oCZcyBKU09OIExvZyBGb3Jt YXQgKEpTT04tTCkgW2RyYWZ0LWhhbGxhbWJha2VyLWpzb25sXS4NCj4+DQo+PiBUaGV5IGFyZSBi YXNpY2FsbHkgdGhlIHNhbWUuIENhbiB3ZSBqdXN0IGtlZXAgb25lPyBQcm9iYWJseSB0aGUgbW9y ZSBnZW5lcmljIEpTT04gVGV4dCBTZXF1ZW5jZXMuDQo+PiBBIEpTT04tTCBpcyBhIEpTT04gVGV4 dCBTZXF1ZW5jZXMgd2hlcmUgZWFjaCBpdGVtIGlzIGFuIG9iamVjdC4NCj4+IElmIGEgc3BlY2lm aWMgbG9nIHNwZWMgaXMgbmVjZXNzYXJ5IChlZyB3YW50IHRvIHN0YW5kYXJkaXNlIGxvZyBlbnRy eSBlbGVtZW50cyBsaWtlICJ0aW1lIikgaXQgY291bGQgc2F5ICJhIEpTT04tTCBsb2cgaXMgYSBK U09OIFRleHQgU2VxdWVuY2UsIHdoZXJlIHRoZSBpdGVtcyBNVVNUIGJlIG9iamVjdHMgYW5kIHRo ZXNlIGNvbW1vbiBlbGVtZW50cyBhcmUgZGVmaW5lZDogdGltZSwgLi4uIi4NCg0KPiBXZSBkbz8g T29vcHMuDQo+DQo+IERpZG4ndCBzZWUgdGhlIG90aGVyIGRyYWZ0Lg0KPg0KPiANCj4gSSB0aGlu ayB0aGUgZGlzY3Vzc2lvbiBtb3ZlZCBvbiBhIGJpdCBmcm9tIE5pY28ncy4gSGUgaGFzIGEgbG90 IG9mDQo+IGRpc2N1c3Npb24gSSB0aGluayB3ZSBoYXZlIHNvbGlkIHJlYXNvbnMgdG8gbWFrZSBk ZWNpc2lvbnMgb24uDQoNCg0KPiBJbXBvcnRpbmcgV0QtbG9nZmlsZSB0YWdzIHNlZW1zIGxpa2Ug YSB3aW4gdG8gbWUgKGJ1dCBJIG1pZ2h0IGJlIGJpYXNlZCkuDQoNCk1heWJlLCBJJ20gYSBiaXQg c2NlcHRpY2FsLiBJcyBXRC1sb2dmaWxlIHdpZGVseSB1c2VkPw0KQSBKU09OIHZlcnNpb24gb2Yg V0QtbG9nZmlsZSBuZWVkcyBtb3JlIHdvcmsuIEZvciBpbnN0YW5jZSwgdGhlIGxhdHRlciBoYXMg ImRpcmVjdGl2ZXMiIGFuZCAiZW50cmllcyIgZGlzdGluZ3Vpc2hlZCBieSBhIGxlYWRpbmcgIiMi LiBIb3cgZG8geW91IHRlbGwgaWYgYSBKU09OLUwgb2JqZWN0IGlzIGEgImRpcmVjdGl2ZSIgb3Ig ImVudHJ5Ij8NCg0KUC5TLiBUaGUgZXhhbXBsZSBpbiBXRC1sb2dmaWxlICg5NjAzMjMgdmVyc2lv biwgbm90IDk2MDIyMSkgYW5kIHJlcGVhdGVkIGluIEpTT04tTCBpcyB3cm9uZy4NCiIjRGF0ZTog MTItSmFuLTE5OTYgMDA6MDA6MDAiIHNob3VsZCBiZSAiI0RhdGU6IDE5OTYtMDEtMTIgMDA6MDA6 MDAiLg0KQSBKU09OIHZlcnNpb24gc2hvdWxkIGF0IGxlYXN0IHVzZSAiMTk5Ni0wMS0xMlQwMDow MDowMFoiLg0KDQpJbiBhbnkgY2FzZSwgdGhlIHN5bnRheCAmIHNlbWFudGljcyBvZiBsb2cgZW50 cnkgZWxlbWVudHMgY2FuIGJlIHNlcGFyYXRlIGZyb20gdGhlIHN5bnRheCBvZiBhIHJlc3luY2gt ZnJpZW5kbHkgYXBwZW5kLWZyaWVuZGx5IHNlcmllcyBvZiB6ZXJvIG9yIG1vcmUgSlNPTiB2YWx1 ZXMuDQoNCi0tDQpKYW1lcyBNYW5nZXINCg== From nobody Tue May 6 20:01:50 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E402B1A0479 for ; Tue, 6 May 2014 20:01:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XkZX_hHcdoXd for ; Tue, 6 May 2014 20:01:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lb0-x22a.google.com (mail-lb0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c04::22a]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 021341A0415 for ; Tue, 6 May 2014 20:01:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lb0-f170.google.com with SMTP id w7so459549lbi.29 for ; Tue, 06 May 2014 20:01:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=in7amJzYBDeEz8Kb34iCWpm0hwT5ZX0PHXoZtAJZUPs=; b=WzOzeQq6+RQemQ4RLwRTSIXlqWl1VgvVQ1WnGd505gD+MxlwJwjnFzj+NFYYXsfGux Pb+xszUtVgLpLYPjI8ipQDdQoczqvElr8uryJNIdImN/hfQRyre2T/wLsr2SKt++ghYE 2hwfXcbih6JwAxVBonA5P4n5E5nsq5ZQlcdcVAyk2+5oX0PMSeI9kjp917IOCi6fb99Q 4TCYfB9SfpeBr30W7Ab3dU//S/qnZArOdT2NB0T7p8JVmkyxMFyvW41eXcJtzIW/HsL5 2LXhZW9jq7g0PqvKL1vptnNrs4pTIXYO4b5SGZHvR5B/iNMe4nE841Wtgwxsh/MVZ8ln iVug== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.67.35 with SMTP id k3mr5319829lbt.17.1399431702296; Tue, 06 May 2014 20:01:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.112.234.229 with HTTP; Tue, 6 May 2014 20:01:42 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E11545BD2502@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> References: <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E11545BD241D@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E11545BD2502@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> Date: Tue, 6 May 2014 23:01:42 -0400 Message-ID: From: Phillip Hallam-Baker To: "Manger, James" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/y8a-egpZ8dC7umNFEuPryUD4zPA Cc: JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] JSON Log file encoding JSON-L X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 May 2014 03:01:49 -0000 W3C extended log file format is supported by Apache, IIS and most log file analysis tools. Interesting that you mention there is an error in the example, that was the change made when the document was revised. Seems that the old version has been substituted for the current somehow when they reformatted it. I don't think we need to restrict ourselves to one set of tags or semantics. And I did think about whether we should update the date format BTW. But it is useful to have some reference point. On Tue, May 6, 2014 at 10:43 PM, Manger, James wrote: >>> We now have Nico=E2=80=99s JSON Text Sequences [draft-williams-json-tex= t-sequence], >>> and Phillip=E2=80=99s JSON Log Format (JSON-L) [draft-hallambaker-jsonl= ]. >>> >>> They are basically the same. Can we just keep one? Probably the more ge= neric JSON Text Sequences. >>> A JSON-L is a JSON Text Sequences where each item is an object. >>> If a specific log spec is necessary (eg want to standardise log entry e= lements like "time") it could say "a JSON-L log is a JSON Text Sequence, wh= ere the items MUST be objects and these common elements are defined: time, = ...". > >> We do? Ooops. >> >> Didn't see the other draft. >> >> >> I think the discussion moved on a bit from Nico's. He has a lot of >> discussion I think we have solid reasons to make decisions on. > > >> Importing WD-logfile tags seems like a win to me (but I might be biased)= . > > Maybe, I'm a bit sceptical. Is WD-logfile widely used? > A JSON version of WD-logfile needs more work. For instance, the latter ha= s "directives" and "entries" distinguished by a leading "#". How do you tel= l if a JSON-L object is a "directive" or "entry"? > > P.S. The example in WD-logfile (960323 version, not 960221) and repeated = in JSON-L is wrong. > "#Date: 12-Jan-1996 00:00:00" should be "#Date: 1996-01-12 00:00:00". > A JSON version should at least use "1996-01-12T00:00:00Z". > > In any case, the syntax & semantics of log entry elements can be separate= from the syntax of a resynch-friendly append-friendly series of zero or mo= re JSON values. > > -- > James Manger --=20 Website: http://hallambaker.com/ From nobody Wed May 7 09:40:18 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A6FA1A03BD for ; Wed, 7 May 2014 09:40:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.044 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.044 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0dZ_sJRWVrBk for ; Wed, 7 May 2014 09:40:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a89.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E59121A0395 for ; Wed, 7 May 2014 09:40:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a89.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a89.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DED2E318071 for ; Wed, 7 May 2014 09:40:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s= cryptonector.com; bh=URUPV8lrviljnHnSlHMB72z4srA=; b=IjJo4o64w/M KMo5F7Tr9Jc4ML0fJqtv+/4j1JgopOlBklx7BuGTaTsOvGnA9x1GYIDRdlHEzS92 WjkXMMtC/aavDzew6kkMyN1ZxEGxJqWv8M9YuWoY4g8SeHI0HYr2VgJXzUmDNevC 8VLGg/FCSoiZjw5Kr64EyebHfwPXpUtc= Received: from mail-wg0-f51.google.com (mail-wg0-f51.google.com [74.125.82.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a89.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8ED95318065 for ; Wed, 7 May 2014 09:40:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wg0-f51.google.com with SMTP id x13so1243070wgg.34 for ; Wed, 07 May 2014 09:40:06 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.143.109 with SMTP id sd13mr1014155wjb.95.1399480806440; Wed, 07 May 2014 09:40:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.29.200 with HTTP; Wed, 7 May 2014 09:40:06 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E11545BD241D@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> References: <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E11545BD241D@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> Date: Wed, 7 May 2014 11:40:06 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: "Manger, James" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/IZ5V_ujeU0cQSxO8ZRZi_Ia3sdM Cc: Phillip Hallam-Baker , JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] JSON Log file encoding JSON-L X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 May 2014 16:40:12 -0000 On Tue, May 6, 2014 at 9:05 PM, Manger, James wrote: >> Thank you Carsten. I think I'll do the following: a) add RS to the > whitespace list for JSON text sequence separators, b) RECOMMEND > surrounding JSON texts with RS in log-like sequences. Then JSON > sequences will be meet the needs of logs. > > Don=E2=80=99t do that. Surely no one uses RS anymore; and certainly no on= e who uses JSON. It doesn't make much sense to use SEPARATOR TWO without us= ing ONE, THREE and FOUR. RS would be used to help distinguish incomplete (because interrupted) entri= es. > We now have Nico=E2=80=99s JSON Text Sequences [draft-williams-json-text-= sequence], It's actually a WG work item now, since the charter now includes this work. > and Phillip=E2=80=99s JSON Log Format (JSON-L) [draft-hallambaker-jsonl]. > > They are basically the same. Can we just keep one? Probably the more gene= ric JSON Text Sequences. I agree. However, PHB has a point about recovery from corruption. My proposed JSON Sequence work does nothing about that. An OPTIONAL RS would. I.e., loggers could (but wouldn't have to) emit RS JSON_TEXT RS NL to make resynchronization possible. Other use cases could just emit JSON_TEXT NL (or any other whitespace. Nico -- From nobody Wed May 7 13:13:04 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C09C1A018D for ; Wed, 7 May 2014 13:13:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.278 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.278 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3vHdIvqE5fM0 for ; Wed, 7 May 2014 13:13:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wg0-x22f.google.com (mail-wg0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c00::22f]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 338481A0398 for ; Wed, 7 May 2014 13:12:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wg0-f47.google.com with SMTP id x12so1542288wgg.30 for ; Wed, 07 May 2014 13:12:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=qOXixi84CfMRoeMXU0C/lx9xY5Ji202ldNg+QkNVrRU=; b=UmcrXUtoifn5KsmsYs9sQWOmjG69XmmOKcrKBVzlS1Pc1UQNpGPoBX6rXo2vrhtFYM ofIOxO2B2R0X/vGYWc8/c9NIpRr34tK6ZVazObk9BtV9L33h3NU+kajYjDBEVSDO+q21 nb44e6wSl5cuOoFx5utw+xwowP1PW0BR1xoFwwzz5qo+OE0uQGqfILSRCMi1LnZ/fesn 0pcfMoh7q4jQOaIuDPvRbj4YqDgzxN3OKfkrSesSrd4/tdX2Z5qyxbOqRqQOtJmD1fF+ F+KsW10ilJzzsncsWzKSkkjoNuCEdjHY7fxEAwm252rfNhBD8naFlZCiBLTxl5hDx/du jo8A== X-Received: by 10.180.187.225 with SMTP id fv1mr89056wic.14.1399493563560; Wed, 07 May 2014 13:12:43 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: cromis@gmail.com Received: by 10.217.141.203 with HTTP; Wed, 7 May 2014 13:12:23 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20140507011853.GA5011@mercury.ccil.org> From: Jacob Davies Date: Wed, 7 May 2014 13:12:23 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: KiKf85E7zi7gvsBAFQWMJYIn7g8 Message-ID: To: Phillip Hallam-Baker Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/Js3iSNWrzyfSsJpQNdJDlFmAxfA Cc: Nico Williams , Carsten Bormann , John Cowan , JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] JSON Log file encoding JSON-L X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 May 2014 20:13:03 -0000 On Tue, May 6, 2014 at 7:05 PM, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: > And how do you know where these control characters are? ? > If we are going to start using obscure ASCII control characters then > we might as well co all binary. Trying to make use of them is going to > make printers and all sorts of editors barf. [Citation needed] I tried it in a few places and it either didn't render at all or rendered as a single space. Since the format requires sequences of JSON objects, that will result in either "}{" or "} {". Compared to the alternative, which is requiring that the logged JSON object have no internal newlines, it seems significantly more readable to use a character for resynchronization that is already universally illegal in JSON texts. I suggested RS because that is the actual intended role of that control character and it is highly unlikely that any existing JSON emitters pass it unescaped. FF (0x0c) is another reasonable choice - well, I think you'd want \f\n - but I'm guessing it's more likely to be erroneously passed unescaped by existing emitters. Editor support is probably wider, but it's sort of a misuse of the character. All that being said I'm less convinced than I was when this was first discussed that the "no internal newlines or whitespace, one object per line, use newline for resynchronization" approach is all that bad. It's not very human-readable but it would work well with existing tools that operate on lines in log files, and I think most emitters have a "compact" mode where no extraneous whitespace is included. I think picking one format is more important than which one it is. From nobody Wed May 7 13:38:29 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B3891A01AC for ; Wed, 7 May 2014 13:38:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.044 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.044 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id T215BubFMDq3 for ; Wed, 7 May 2014 13:38:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a36.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A34D61A019B for ; Wed, 7 May 2014 13:38:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a36.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a36.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95997778061 for ; Wed, 7 May 2014 13:38:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:cc:content-type; s=cryptonector.com; bh=JZsc4Z5ZzqlpmWkFMZZF fBnvhn4=; b=prJqUGl2z46QACHz2NQSgjRR0tc0UtnRqYNvN1Nzx65piuyLV0zw 2UGpIQqFf614GWwi+wVoLiCP4ZkSERSme7u+l+fNUdT9Fbc/sPKSzwcFNzEYeqkW cYgGx9x+TsnzfJROrzM1p2t+OvtH6YcT54fOXLqJfy5UpsrTgH6gqVk= Received: from mail-we0-f180.google.com (mail-we0-f180.google.com [74.125.82.180]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a36.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4931E77805F for ; Wed, 7 May 2014 13:38:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-we0-f180.google.com with SMTP id t61so1549105wes.39 for ; Wed, 07 May 2014 13:38:22 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.108.147 with SMTP id hk19mr9491662wib.42.1399495102046; Wed, 07 May 2014 13:38:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.29.200 with HTTP; Wed, 7 May 2014 13:38:21 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20140507011853.GA5011@mercury.ccil.org> Date: Wed, 7 May 2014 15:38:21 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: Jacob Davies Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/PzKlITqxQCNP6Ke0RvFGaJA5NcA Cc: John Cowan , Carsten Bormann , Phillip Hallam-Baker , JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] JSON Log file encoding JSON-L X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 May 2014 20:38:28 -0000 On Wed, May 7, 2014 at 3:12 PM, Jacob Davies wrote: > On Tue, May 6, 2014 at 7:05 PM, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: >> And how do you know where these control characters are? With od(1), for example :) > ? +1 :) >> If we are going to start using obscure ASCII control characters then >> we might as well co all binary. Trying to make use of them is going to >> make printers and all sorts of editors barf. > > [Citation needed] I tried it in a few places and it either didn't > render at all or rendered as a single space. Since the format requires > sequences of JSON objects, that will result in either "}{" or "} {". Good! > Compared to the alternative, which is requiring that the logged JSON > object have no internal newlines, it seems significantly more readable > to use a character for resynchronization that is already universally > illegal in JSON texts. I suggested RS because that is the actual > intended role of that control character and it is highly unlikely that > any existing JSON emitters pass it unescaped. FF (0x0c) is another > reasonable choice - well, I think you'd want \f\n - but I'm guessing > it's more likely to be erroneously passed unescaped by existing > emitters. Editor support is probably wider, but it's sort of a misuse > of the character. The RS thing should be OPTIONAL, to be used when writing entries in a log-like way (e.g., using O_APPEND), because of the potential for corruption in the face of interrupted writes. > All that being said I'm less convinced than I was when this was first > discussed that the "no internal newlines or whitespace, one object per > line, use newline for resynchronization" approach is all that bad. > It's not very human-readable but it would work well with existing > tools that operate on lines in log files, and I think most emitters > have a "compact" mode where no extraneous whitespace is included. I > think picking one format is more important than which one it is. Right, writing entries with no internal newlines is easy enough for log writers, and hardly a problem for anyone consuming logs. Nico -- From nobody Wed May 7 13:46:22 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 532551A02F6 for ; Wed, 7 May 2014 13:46:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RoP7rRmlV21c for ; Wed, 7 May 2014 13:46:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lb0-x231.google.com (mail-lb0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c04::231]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23D221A01A0 for ; Wed, 7 May 2014 13:46:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lb0-f177.google.com with SMTP id s7so2143790lbd.8 for ; Wed, 07 May 2014 13:46:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=qhks9CwIJQGYeF+5gWV8onlTJiDAtZdCF1JC+J4ryAU=; b=sbW9G6PqSnfrO5OZsiDeh3okEhuhL+LYdNVeYQg7vbaM5buvZSirowF68tpfRoSct8 TgmdO6bn5stm+GahIt+fgB3R3QqgBVdg1NSR+puLFxJZ5eBnOPEuWwO41lwVUHElfIOY 6n2jwDOFXCHTZNp2Liz1wyrk7Ln9bjfeP+X2Gu91wZv5ioWa3kDgrAceuf6aeKv8veFi fb3dBG3KcwtkBWrfJVIqvggjoKw99A8nSm/Jc4wz51AAt7SwXAJA/O5rikle9pFICgMR VUKyn/NyQKYg+Orb4YF5nA059E3c9cIZHnNDvCOsAxlUknNwRwAMc6x3G/6H5KWpSw7q 77aw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.41.101 with SMTP id e5mr5592975lbl.46.1399495573987; Wed, 07 May 2014 13:46:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.112.234.229 with HTTP; Wed, 7 May 2014 13:46:13 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20140507011853.GA5011@mercury.ccil.org> Date: Wed, 7 May 2014 16:46:13 -0400 Message-ID: From: Phillip Hallam-Baker To: Nico Williams Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/En5TRm_zTgfILjVCPDtUr3S8WbQ Cc: John Cowan , Carsten Bormann , Jacob Davies , JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] JSON Log file encoding JSON-L X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 May 2014 20:46:21 -0000 If I open up a file with an RS character in it using notepad, how is it going to look? Since RS is effectively an obsolete character the best I would expect is to see ? all over the place. Unix and Windows both came to the conclusion that the only control characters that are used are CR, LF and TAB. And CR is only used because the Internet adopted CRLF as the line ending sequence rather than LF. JSON is a text based encoding. It is not the place to attempt to resurrect long abandoned control character conventions. On Wed, May 7, 2014 at 4:38 PM, Nico Williams wrote: > On Wed, May 7, 2014 at 3:12 PM, Jacob Davies wrote: >> On Tue, May 6, 2014 at 7:05 PM, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: >>> And how do you know where these control characters are? > > With od(1), for example :) > >> ? > > +1 :) > >>> If we are going to start using obscure ASCII control characters then >>> we might as well co all binary. Trying to make use of them is going to >>> make printers and all sorts of editors barf. >> >> [Citation needed] I tried it in a few places and it either didn't >> render at all or rendered as a single space. Since the format requires >> sequences of JSON objects, that will result in either "}{" or "} {". > > Good! > >> Compared to the alternative, which is requiring that the logged JSON >> object have no internal newlines, it seems significantly more readable >> to use a character for resynchronization that is already universally >> illegal in JSON texts. I suggested RS because that is the actual >> intended role of that control character and it is highly unlikely that >> any existing JSON emitters pass it unescaped. FF (0x0c) is another >> reasonable choice - well, I think you'd want \f\n - but I'm guessing >> it's more likely to be erroneously passed unescaped by existing >> emitters. Editor support is probably wider, but it's sort of a misuse >> of the character. > > The RS thing should be OPTIONAL, to be used when writing entries in a > log-like way (e.g., using O_APPEND), because of the potential for > corruption in the face of interrupted writes. > >> All that being said I'm less convinced than I was when this was first >> discussed that the "no internal newlines or whitespace, one object per >> line, use newline for resynchronization" approach is all that bad. >> It's not very human-readable but it would work well with existing >> tools that operate on lines in log files, and I think most emitters >> have a "compact" mode where no extraneous whitespace is included. I >> think picking one format is more important than which one it is. > > Right, writing entries with no internal newlines is easy enough for > log writers, and hardly a problem for anyone consuming logs. > > Nico > -- -- Website: http://hallambaker.com/ From nobody Wed May 7 14:04:57 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68B751A01B6 for ; Wed, 7 May 2014 14:04:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.044 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.044 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TJOqon2-SjW0 for ; Wed, 7 May 2014 14:04:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a90.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C90FC1A01B2 for ; Wed, 7 May 2014 14:04:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a90.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a90.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46E142AC06A for ; Wed, 7 May 2014 14:04:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:cc:content-type; s=cryptonector.com; bh=oqbKLK2kxAZwXm/swpiv xVKi7TI=; b=muzAFUsseAhn7BOs2Bz48fniqmUU4OKXQRa5S4Bfx3uCDUwaRgg4 oGk1TJAF3D8bgdGUY5M8hY0IDjX8SAv7wRxigmryg+QNagpiDnb5K6OFPvUjglO3 kUIEmHzs7oHxfovVP500bxqfqNupCniiV7bz0ne/PNAFkAaFGbeBZ1I= Received: from mail-wg0-f50.google.com (mail-wg0-f50.google.com [74.125.82.50]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a90.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id EF8BC2AC064 for ; Wed, 7 May 2014 14:04:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wg0-f50.google.com with SMTP id x12so1613450wgg.9 for ; Wed, 07 May 2014 14:04:48 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.211.116 with SMTP id nb20mr175924wic.5.1399496688919; Wed, 07 May 2014 14:04:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.29.200 with HTTP; Wed, 7 May 2014 14:04:48 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20140507011853.GA5011@mercury.ccil.org> Date: Wed, 7 May 2014 16:04:48 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: Phillip Hallam-Baker Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/2_qOwdX5fz7lzrS1E5lNth6HNho Cc: John Cowan , Carsten Bormann , Jacob Davies , JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] JSON Log file encoding JSON-L X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 May 2014 21:04:55 -0000 On Wed, May 7, 2014 at 3:46 PM, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: > If I open up a file with an RS character in it using notepad, how is > it going to look? Notepad, Wordpad, my Unix shells, my Unix $EDITOR -- all display it as a space or not at all. > Since RS is effectively an obsolete character the best I would expect > is to see ? all over the place. Nope. And even so, who cares? It's a log file, you'll not be editing it. > Unix and Windows both came to the conclusion that the only control > characters that are used are CR, LF and TAB. And CR is only used > because the Internet adopted CRLF as the line ending sequence rather > than LF. Try it. > JSON is a text based encoding. It is not the place to attempt to > resurrect long abandoned control character conventions. Try it. Nico -- From nobody Wed May 7 14:19:03 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E14121A039B for ; Wed, 7 May 2014 14:19:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id B3FxW08dC46W for ; Wed, 7 May 2014 14:18:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lb0-x22a.google.com (mail-lb0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c04::22a]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CE001A01B2 for ; Wed, 7 May 2014 14:18:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lb0-f170.google.com with SMTP id w7so2251812lbi.29 for ; Wed, 07 May 2014 14:18:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=WRXWdOFLxbmn4b5VKE296XkO0Ma9LYz5Hq5VNVfrq+E=; b=hm5LFxKJ5HwX4oamSXxc0yA/OJyTzJs7G6TPW6xLqcCt1V77/5G3islN10pYn8WBMo 4ZK1y82sCJNjxeZtSaB8qJjAu+1pKVRP9wxZlVDMhkkZSFknx0jcT89r9uupkWMSzEGs UVp7KM9DQ2frYpndi4NHgJy6KZ2YMa1FYD9vdQOc6fr+MGInpD4suLSGjsj0vBE1ZIrK OO6fPJBfi6swdBZ0W85TGJlgTCsS/R2AQBDubsXROYEtxqBFEk7vxIc731EhL21wRqF+ P4lBWMlEPezWVFpR4zlca1Q+/Yb30asP3YYQRlNJcD0Tf5kbjEAgq0MWJgS0Eb9Ct4B/ /pkw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.132.2 with SMTP id oq2mr19436303lbb.33.1399497533435; Wed, 07 May 2014 14:18:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.112.234.229 with HTTP; Wed, 7 May 2014 14:18:53 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20140507011853.GA5011@mercury.ccil.org> Date: Wed, 7 May 2014 17:18:53 -0400 Message-ID: From: Phillip Hallam-Baker To: Nico Williams Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/gdgH0cQ8WRPkELXEqqvJxbB1pWs Cc: John Cowan , Carsten Bormann , Jacob Davies , JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] JSON Log file encoding JSON-L X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 May 2014 21:19:01 -0000 On Wed, May 7, 2014 at 5:04 PM, Nico Williams wrote: > On Wed, May 7, 2014 at 3:46 PM, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: >> If I open up a file with an RS character in it using notepad, how is >> it going to look? > > Notepad, Wordpad, my Unix shells, my Unix $EDITOR -- all display it as > a space or not at all. So how can I look at a file and know if it is a well formed sequence or not? >> Since RS is effectively an obsolete character the best I would expect >> is to see ? all over the place. > > Nope. And even so, who cares? It's a log file, you'll not be editing it. I open log files with an editor very frequently. >> Unix and Windows both came to the conclusion that the only control >> characters that are used are CR, LF and TAB. And CR is only used >> because the Internet adopted CRLF as the line ending sequence rather >> than LF. > > Try it. > >> JSON is a text based encoding. It is not the place to attempt to >> resurrect long abandoned control character conventions. > > Try it. > > Nico > -- It is easy enough to detect the sequence '}' *ws* LF *ws '{', its a four state FSR. Why complicate things with characters that will cause detours through untested code paths? -- Website: http://hallambaker.com/ From nobody Wed May 7 14:40:21 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 821471A03B5 for ; Wed, 7 May 2014 14:40:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.044 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.044 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gDU7_2zJav9I for ; Wed, 7 May 2014 14:40:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a70.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC89F1A03AE for ; Wed, 7 May 2014 14:40:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a70.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a70.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8314A768061 for ; Wed, 7 May 2014 14:40:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:cc:content-type; s=cryptonector.com; bh=hyF4BnH8pduydNqetQsi J5o2u9Y=; b=SiIuP3rcg1kQJnO65X0kj7TdBqe3ZcZmdvzuQUq0ikryFRXaQjd6 JAp0SEiq9t9OQpNwM+0RhlMWLr3gN79wEntEodoMM4BcBILJq+EP1opGw2iKl7hy h9FpkC13OceFTsya0QRhwRBgWKdEmOpg7G6KgmMHeknMTv9lI7QYhig= Received: from mail-we0-f175.google.com (mail-we0-f175.google.com [74.125.82.175]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a70.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 36D8876805C for ; Wed, 7 May 2014 14:40:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-we0-f175.google.com with SMTP id t61so1652809wes.34 for ; Wed, 07 May 2014 14:40:12 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.242.4 with SMTP id wm4mr84811wjc.88.1399498812022; Wed, 07 May 2014 14:40:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.29.200 with HTTP; Wed, 7 May 2014 14:40:11 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20140507011853.GA5011@mercury.ccil.org> Date: Wed, 7 May 2014 16:40:11 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: Phillip Hallam-Baker Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/WoeyPUzas4WIm9nmFzxP9MhI5LU Cc: John Cowan , Carsten Bormann , Jacob Davies , JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] JSON Log file encoding JSON-L X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 May 2014 21:40:18 -0000 On Wed, May 7, 2014 at 4:18 PM, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: > On Wed, May 7, 2014 at 5:04 PM, Nico Williams wrote: >> On Wed, May 7, 2014 at 3:46 PM, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: >>> If I open up a file with an RS character in it using notepad, how is >>> it going to look? >> >> Notepad, Wordpad, my Unix shells, my Unix $EDITOR -- all display it as >> a space or not at all. > > So how can I look at a file and know if it is a well formed sequence or not? Use a JSON text processor, like jq(1). (I'll have to update jq to teach it to ignore RS between texts at the top-level.) >>> Since RS is effectively an obsolete character the best I would expect >>> is to see ? all over the place. >> >> Nope. And even so, who cares? It's a log file, you'll not be editing it. > > I open log files with an editor very frequently. First, try it. Second, what? Why edit logfiles? I've been dealing with logfiles for decades and I've never had to edit one before. What are editing them for? > It is easy enough to detect the sequence '}' *ws* LF *ws '{', its a > four state FSR. Why complicate things with characters that will cause > detours through untested code paths? It's only necessary to know anything about RS when recovering from a failure to parse a presumably-truncated entry in the log. And even then, we can simply seek forward to the next RS or NL and try parsing whatever's there. Nico -- From nobody Wed May 7 14:42:16 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74D011A03AE for ; Wed, 7 May 2014 14:42:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.044 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.044 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RiMi_aP79vck for ; Wed, 7 May 2014 14:42:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a28.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC2631A03A6 for ; Wed, 7 May 2014 14:42:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a28.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a28.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB98F1B406E for ; Wed, 7 May 2014 14:42:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; s= cryptonector.com; bh=bZvqqSkTYgulC2Pgw0QzeZcQqI8=; b=hA5itki/gt6 aA7Al4wBb4IwokAq0XMuye7/MZqEKqL37jAIe3SqtGwRur/IGsj9shtfFfVdo2b/ VBf1qjfDv1bDDE7hU6lY02K+He/ihc3KSkGER+HS308Jr7xyqm3TRx1gyBzZvslC Aoz7haFtyl+faAD0OwH3XTnWPFoF2Ah0= Received: from mail-wi0-f179.google.com (mail-wi0-f179.google.com [209.85.212.179]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a28.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6F7F41B4061 for ; Wed, 7 May 2014 14:42:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wi0-f179.google.com with SMTP id bs8so2109156wib.12 for ; Wed, 07 May 2014 14:42:07 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.160.166 with SMTP id xl6mr309789wib.42.1399498927223; Wed, 07 May 2014 14:42:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.29.200 with HTTP; Wed, 7 May 2014 14:42:07 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 7 May 2014 16:42:07 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: "json@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/NQ8dNAJUxD69B3xYXt4GUVaLw0s Subject: [Json] JSON Sequence support for log files X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 May 2014 21:42:13 -0000 Appending to logfiles creates the need to recover from interrupted writes (i.e., corrupted entries). Therefore I propose the following minor change to the JSON Sequence I-D: a) add ASCII RS to the whitespace rule b) RECOMMEND that logfile writers write either RS RS NL or NL (producing entries with no internal newlines is trivial, as discussed in other posts) c) describe how to resynchronize by seeking to the next RS or NL when a JSON text fails to parse, until a text that parses is found. Nico -- From nobody Wed May 7 15:25:04 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 993D21A0410 for ; Wed, 7 May 2014 15:25:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DmVVoPYhp15h for ; Wed, 7 May 2014 15:25:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lb0-x22c.google.com (mail-lb0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c04::22c]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8481A1A0407 for ; Wed, 7 May 2014 15:25:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lb0-f172.google.com with SMTP id l4so2369159lbv.31 for ; Wed, 07 May 2014 15:24:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=dXwvhFbPCq9WpmrZhsy+TXHKlndlhW8BTui71KFup0I=; b=CyaBQjwQPSJCa3QYHXInx7XFlYFgTxSzIjSj05sqj4seIQC6mWbQ7l0+etZI54Fleo AopOUFhUJq53mjXAd2r0IV3E2zyzfNYntGfkToiWULFmwiz4r3RTGm5NulUXlXn/YVrv mIZzwYylTxbeobylQe8/67dey4n6kq/RiKT1eYrfm/kavvMZHc/hOePdvf+k9rxKGn1J U91GesgaqqoIwP0svxGVZGieGh8QDCTDejYezn8zXfAiqW3b59oF6Wf1Xe6LTMt3QBqO sLBeO7JK6tGKwKe1u4cCeioGyFJCXrDIVCfrXeCTxpZUnDbWY3OANGXzH4IXsNhmVDqu U7Cw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.14.5 with SMTP id l5mr15963754lbc.12.1399501495521; Wed, 07 May 2014 15:24:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.112.234.229 with HTTP; Wed, 7 May 2014 15:24:55 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 7 May 2014 18:24:55 -0400 Message-ID: From: Phillip Hallam-Baker To: Nico Williams Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/Btj39a8uzzCRQehIGbuVxf3gepU Cc: "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] JSON Sequence support for log files X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 May 2014 22:25:02 -0000 Why can't we have } NL { as a record boundary separator? It is consistent with text encoding, does not require use of unusual characters and is easily detected using a simple FSR: Start: ['}' S1] [* Start] S1: [NL S2] [WS S1] [* Start] S2: [WS S2] ['}' Boundary] [* Start] Boundary: No need to constrain the text in records, no need to introduce any unusual characters or perform unnatural acts. I read log files with an editor by choice because a text editor can do anything that a terminal with line mode commands can do but much more easily. I usually look for particular records to find an event and then go backwards and forwards from that point. Just as the only server TCP ports that work any longer are 80 and 443, the only ASCII control characters that work are LF and TAB. Even CR is starting a (long overdue) decline. Most program languages accept LF and CRLF terminations as completely interchangeable. On Wed, May 7, 2014 at 5:42 PM, Nico Williams wrote: > Appending to logfiles creates the need to recover from interrupted > writes (i.e., corrupted entries). Therefore I propose the following > minor change to the JSON Sequence I-D: > > a) add ASCII RS to the whitespace rule > b) RECOMMEND that logfile writers write either RS RS NL or > NL > > (producing entries with no internal newlines is trivial, as discussed > in other posts) > > c) describe how to resynchronize by seeking to the next RS or NL when > a JSON text fails to parse, until a text that parses is found. > > Nico > -- > > _______________________________________________ > json mailing list > json@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json -- Website: http://hallambaker.com/ From nobody Wed May 7 15:49:39 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8942F1A0422 for ; Wed, 7 May 2014 15:49:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.044 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.044 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eIvS1hhjg13o for ; Wed, 7 May 2014 15:49:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a84.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6C1A1A0406 for ; Wed, 7 May 2014 15:49:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a84.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a84.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A2951DE05D for ; Wed, 7 May 2014 15:49:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:cc:content-type; s=cryptonector.com; bh=yb4Cl2QepsDLvXiA6KMY K+NLfDY=; b=LUUSbRM5r2vvDqpDar4c57FyXkiVeWhQ4jscW8yARJXAkMgspYOU Cbd6WkIDLE33AhJac1b42CztzX6CaA6UQjqO7OUCNcqKqpX/gfh15OagD4KAk3FH ECPo65AZ5xSrIMhsj9v2CmfwjEftzBHc3erronemJqw9bF9PNjuQCEw= Received: from mail-ob0-f173.google.com (mail-ob0-f173.google.com [209.85.214.173]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a84.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 825941DE058 for ; Wed, 7 May 2014 15:49:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ob0-f173.google.com with SMTP id wm4so2096871obc.32 for ; Wed, 07 May 2014 15:49:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.60.125.195 with SMTP id ms3mr49738245oeb.3.1399502961117; Wed, 07 May 2014 15:49:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.182.127.50 with HTTP; Wed, 7 May 2014 15:49:21 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 7 May 2014 17:49:21 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: Phillip Hallam-Baker Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/oFKuPXb_rTnHg7szC7nLcq6mXoA Cc: "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] JSON Sequence support for log files X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 May 2014 22:49:26 -0000 On Wed, May 7, 2014 at 5:24 PM, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote: > Why can't we have } NL { as a record boundary separator? JSON Sequence is more general than logfiles. As such it supports any type at the top-level, therefore } NL { doesn't work. For logfiles, however, it does work, as we can constrain the type used at the top-level in logfiles. In fact, any sequence of ( %x22 / "]" / "}" ) %x0A ( %22 / "{" / "[" ) works! Thus even for logfiles we can have arrays, objects, and strings at the top-level. > I read log files with an editor by choice because a text editor can do > anything that a terminal with line mode commands can do but much more > easily. I usually look for particular records to find an event and > then go backwards and forwards from that point. Ah, you _read_ them with $EDITOR. Got it. Still, it works; try it. > Just as the only server TCP ports that work any longer are 80 and 443, > the only ASCII control characters that work are LF and TAB. Even CR is > starting a (long overdue) decline. Most program languages accept LF > and CRLF terminations as completely interchangeable. HTTP still uses \r\n. To my chagrin. Nico -- From nobody Wed May 7 15:57:51 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5BCC1A0425 for ; Wed, 7 May 2014 15:57:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.251 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.251 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nkXQOBAIpQdq for ; Wed, 7 May 2014 15:57:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0674D1A03F4 for ; Wed, 7 May 2014 15:57:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1WiAm9-0005ac-9w; Wed, 07 May 2014 18:57:21 -0400 Date: Wed, 7 May 2014 18:57:21 -0400 From: John Cowan To: Jacob Davies Message-ID: <20140507225721.GB22201@mercury.ccil.org> References: <20140507011853.GA5011@mercury.ccil.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Sender: John Cowan Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/8Pt8L8x0z1uBUSdrgjjzIzf4AAg Cc: Nico Williams , Carsten Bormann , Phillip Hallam-Baker , JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] JSON Log file encoding JSON-L X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 May 2014 22:57:31 -0000 Jacob Davies scripsit: > All that being said I'm less convinced than I was when this was first > discussed that the "no internal newlines or whitespace, one object per > line, use newline for resynchronization" approach is all that bad. I agree, if by whitespace you mean inessential whitespace. I don't think it's reasonable to forbid spaces in JSON strings. > It's not very human-readable but it would work well with existing > tools that operate on lines in log files, and I think most emitters > have a "compact" mode where no extraneous whitespace is included. I > think picking one format is more important than which one it is. I'd say just forbidding newlines is sufficient. There's no reason to forbid the use of spaces for formatting, or anything else in particular. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org Your worships will perhaps be thinking that it is an easy thing to blow up a dog? [Or] to write a book? --Don Quixote, Introduction From nobody Wed May 7 16:20:37 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B80F1A0441 for ; Wed, 7 May 2014 16:20:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rM6qNgvE8LR7 for ; Wed, 7 May 2014 16:20:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EB741A042D for ; Wed, 7 May 2014 16:20:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s47NK5W1003286 for ; Thu, 8 May 2014 01:20:05 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.217.145] (p54890EED.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.137.14.237]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 769D21A9C; Thu, 8 May 2014 01:20:05 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.2 \(1874\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 8 May 2014 01:20:02 +0200 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 421197602.680408-4b471126a89d71f60a2caf715ea8de31 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: To: "json@ietf.org" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1874) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/fHHAO-4duGFZGnVvfeWdBVbTyCY Subject: Re: [Json] JSON Sequence support for log files X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 07 May 2014 23:20:15 -0000 Off-topic (I don=92t have an opinion on the on-topic discussion), but = somebody was wrong on the Internet: > the only ASCII control characters that work are LF and TAB (There is no TAB character in RFC 20. I think you mean HT.) If you think that HT =93works=94 for any definition of that word I don=92t= know where to start. RFC 20 is exactly right: HT Horizontal Tabulation (punched card skip) Don=92t use HT outside the domain of punched cards. (Well, it was useful with the LA36=86 at 300 bit/s because it advanced = the carriage so much faster than eight spaces would. [I=92m too young to have extensive experience with ASR33s.] But that replacement could be done in the line driver so it never had a = place in source files.) By the way, a quite respectable number of people*) use FF characters as = information separators. FWIW. Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten *) Like, us, when we write RFCs. Does your editor blow up on those, = too? =86 http://www.columbia.edu/cu/computinghistory/la36.html From nobody Wed May 7 18:45:30 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C0621A0469 for ; Wed, 7 May 2014 18:45:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.202 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.202 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_AU=0.377, HOST_EQ_AU=0.327, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RELAY_IS_203=0.994] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BYv0WVq2qblQ for ; Wed, 7 May 2014 18:45:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ipxcvo.tcif.telstra.com.au (ipxcvo.tcif.telstra.com.au [203.35.135.208]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 951851A0466 for ; Wed, 7 May 2014 18:45:08 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.97,1007,1389704400"; d="scan'208";a="11513453" Received: from unknown (HELO ipcavi.tcif.telstra.com.au) ([10.97.217.200]) by ipocvi.tcif.telstra.com.au with ESMTP; 08 May 2014 11:34:40 +1000 X-IronPort-AV: E=McAfee;i="5600,1067,7431"; a="275442749" Received: from wsmsg3757.srv.dir.telstra.com ([172.49.40.85]) by ipcavi.tcif.telstra.com.au with ESMTP; 08 May 2014 11:45:03 +1000 Received: from WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com ([172.49.40.159]) by wsmsg3757.srv.dir.telstra.com ([172.49.40.85]) with mapi; Thu, 8 May 2014 11:45:02 +1000 From: "Manger, James" To: Nico Williams , Phillip Hallam-Baker Date: Thu, 8 May 2014 11:45:01 +1000 Thread-Topic: [Json] JSON Sequence support for log files Thread-Index: Ac9qRqCysiCJKk1zR9qxGHZipbZyGAADof+Q Message-ID: <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E11545BD3247@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US, en-AU Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US, en-AU Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/P6YE0QihgZ1YKHZkCNYRJbvvdDM Cc: "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] JSON Sequence support for log files X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 May 2014 01:45:11 -0000 Pj4+IEFwcGVuZGluZyB0byBsb2dmaWxlcyBjcmVhdGVzIHRoZSBuZWVkIHRvIHJlY292ZXIgZnJv bSBpbnRlcnJ1cHRlZA0KPj4+IHdyaXRlcyAoaS5lLiwgY29ycnVwdGVkIGVudHJpZXMpLiAgVGhl cmVmb3JlIEkgcHJvcG9zZSB0aGUgZm9sbG93aW5nDQo+Pj4gbWlub3IgY2hhbmdlIHRvIHRoZSBK U09OIFNlcXVlbmNlIEktRDoNCj4+Pg0KPj4+IGEpIGFkZCBBU0NJSSBSUyB0byB0aGUgd2hpdGVz cGFjZSBydWxlDQo+Pj4gYikgUkVDT01NRU5EIHRoYXQgbG9nZmlsZSB3cml0ZXJzIHdyaXRlIGVp dGhlciBSUyA8ZW50cnk+IFJTIE5MIG9yDQo+Pj4gPGVudHJ5LXdpdGhvdXQtaW50ZXJuYWwtbmV3 bGluZXM+IE5MDQo+Pj4NCj4+PiAocHJvZHVjaW5nIGVudHJpZXMgd2l0aCBubyBpbnRlcm5hbCBu ZXdsaW5lcyBpcyB0cml2aWFsLCBhcyBkaXNjdXNzZWQNCj4+PiBpbiBvdGhlciBwb3N0cykNCj4+ Pg0KPj4+IGMpIGRlc2NyaWJlIGhvdyB0byByZXN5bmNocm9uaXplIGJ5IHNlZWtpbmcgdG8gdGhl IG5leHQgUlMgb3IgTkwgd2hlbg0KPj4+IGEgSlNPTiB0ZXh0IGZhaWxzIHRvIHBhcnNlLCB1bnRp bCBhIHRleHQgdGhhdCBwYXJzZXMgaXMgZm91bmQuDQoNCj4+IFdoeSBjYW4ndCB3ZSBoYXZlIH0g TkwgeyBhcyBhIHJlY29yZCBib3VuZGFyeSBzZXBhcmF0b3I/DQoNCj4gSlNPTiBTZXF1ZW5jZSBp cyBtb3JlIGdlbmVyYWwgdGhhbiBsb2dmaWxlcy4gIEFzIHN1Y2ggaXQgc3VwcG9ydHMgYW55DQo+ IHR5cGUgYXQgdGhlIHRvcC1sZXZlbCwgdGhlcmVmb3JlIH0gTkwgeyBkb2Vzbid0IHdvcmsuDQo+ DQo+IEZvciBsb2dmaWxlcywgaG93ZXZlciwgaXQgZG9lcyB3b3JrLCBhcyB3ZSBjYW4gY29uc3Ry YWluIHRoZSB0eXBlIHVzZWQNCj4gYXQgdGhlIHRvcC1sZXZlbCBpbiBsb2dmaWxlcy4NCj4NCj4g SW4gZmFjdCwgYW55IHNlcXVlbmNlIG9mICggJXgyMiAvICJdIiAvICJ9IiApICV4MEEgKCAlMjIg LyAieyIgLyAiWyIgKQ0KPiB3b3JrcyEgIFRodXMgZXZlbiBmb3IgbG9nZmlsZXMgd2UgY2FuIGhh dmUgYXJyYXlzLCBvYmplY3RzLCBhbmQNCj4gc3RyaW5ncyBhdCB0aGUgdG9wLWxldmVsLg0KDQoN ClN5bmNpbmcgdG8gYSBib3VuZGFyeSBpbiB0aGUgbWlkZGxlIG9mIGEgSlNPTiBzZXF1ZW5jZSBv ciBsb2cgaXNuJ3QgYSBnb29kIHJlYXNvbiBmb3IgUlMuIFlvdSBjYW4gc3luYyB3aXRob3V0IFJT LiBJIHRoaW5rIHRoZSBmb2xsb3dpbmcgZGV0ZWN0cyBhIGJvdW5kYXJ5IGJldHdlZW4gYW55IEpT T04gdmFsdWVzLg0KDQooICJ9IiAvICJdIiAvICV4MjIgLyAiZSIgLyAibCIgLyBESUdJVCApICp3 cyBOTCAqd3MgKCAieyIgLyAiWyIgLyAleDIyIC8gInQiIC8gImYiIC8gIm4iIC8gIi0iIC8gRElH SVQgKQ0KDQpSUyBhZGRzIGNvbXBsZXhpdHkgKGVnIGV4dHJhIHN0ZXBzIHRvIHN0cmlwIFJTcyBi ZWZvcmUgcGFzc2luZyB0byBKU09OIHBhcnNlcikuDQpJdCBhbHNvIGNhdXNlcyB1bmV4cGVjdGVk IGJlaGF2aW91ciBmcm9tIHRvb2xzIHRoYXQgaGFuZGxlIHRleHQuIEZvciBpbnN0YW5jZSwgdGhl IENocm9tZSBicm93c2VyIHVzdWFsbHkgKmRpc3BsYXlzKiB0ZXh0IGZpbGVzIGluIHRoZSBicm93 c2VyIHdpbmRvdywgYnV0IGlmIGl0IGhhcyBhbiBSUyBjaGFyYWN0ZXIgdGhlIGZpbGUgaXMgZG93 bmxvYWRlZCBpbnN0ZWFkIQ0KDQoNClJTIGNvdWxkIGNvbmNlaXZhYmx5IGhlbHAgZGV0ZWN0ICpz bGlnaHRseSogbW9yZSBjYXNlcyBvZiBhY2NpZGVudGFsbHkgdHJ1bmNhdGVkIHdyaXRlcyAoaW4g dGhlIG1pZGRsZSBvZiBhIHRvcC1sZXZlbCBudW1iZXIsIGluIGEgdG9wLWxldmVsIHN0cmluZyBp biB0aGUgbWlkZGxlIG9mIGFuIGVzY2FwZSBzZXF1ZW5jZSkuIFRoYXQgaXMgbm90IGNvbXBlbGxp bmcuIFBhcnRpY3VsYXJseSBhcyBpdCBzdGlsbCBmYWlscyB0byBkZXRlY3QgdHJ1bmNhdGlvbiBv ZiBlbnRpcmUgcmVjb3JkcyAoaW5jbHVkaW5nIFJTcykgc28gaXQgaXMgdXNlbGVzcyBhcyBhIHBy b3BlciBpbnRlZ3JpdHkgbWVjaGFuaXNtLiBGaW5hbGx5LCB0aGUgIlJTIDxlbnRyeT4gUlMgTkwi IHN1Z2dlc3Rpb24gbWlzdXNlcyB0aGUgbm9ybWFsIHNlbWFudGljcyBvZiBhIHNlcGFyYXRvciBi eSB1c2luZyAyIHBlciBlbnRyeSBpbnN0ZWFkIG9mIDEuDQoNCi0xIHRvIFJTcw0KDQotLQ0KSmFt ZXMgTWFuZ2VyDQo= From nobody Wed May 7 20:20:54 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DCD01A01FD for ; Wed, 7 May 2014 20:20:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.043 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.043 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UG-3rdRz2SjB for ; Wed, 7 May 2014 20:20:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a36.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3D681A01F9 for ; Wed, 7 May 2014 20:20:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a36.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a36.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA49B778070 for ; Wed, 7 May 2014 20:20:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:cc:content-type; s=cryptonector.com; bh=68Jbts89kqomPgXQqvCT bch10ak=; b=jagjywfwCX2QDGAt5+Jt8VADJnuXGHUf6cghepqvysIhAaD92erx vMeOtYrbSMxxW+8hAStkKnLlRjofStIJ3AeEyCJCBjiIf5d+OOWM4l+5KCMklULk WEfKz3Dc5A1uCJEIO+nDaov3Nc77ziGs0m8e0kKDr4oK9VMSVQivaLM= Received: from mail-we0-f174.google.com (mail-we0-f174.google.com [74.125.82.174]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a36.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5BCB9778057 for ; Wed, 7 May 2014 20:20:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-we0-f174.google.com with SMTP id k48so1919641wev.33 for ; Wed, 07 May 2014 20:20:42 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.77.225 with SMTP id v1mr10555515wiw.5.1399519242239; Wed, 07 May 2014 20:20:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.29.200 with HTTP; Wed, 7 May 2014 20:20:42 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E11545BD3247@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> References: <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E11545BD3247@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> Date: Wed, 7 May 2014 22:20:42 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: "Manger, James" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d043c82464a44c204f8daf7b5 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/_FwZhX5aFUmob-u0dAyKPpOJQX8 Cc: Phillip Hallam-Baker , "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] JSON Sequence support for log files X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 May 2014 03:20:49 -0000 --f46d043c82464a44c204f8daf7b5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > > In fact, any sequence of ( %x22 / "]" / "}" ) %x0A ( %22 / "{" / "[" ) > > works! Thus even for logfiles we can have arrays, objects, and > > strings at the top-level. > > > Syncing to a boundary in the middle of a JSON sequence or log isn't a good > reason for RS. You can sync without RS. I think the following detects a > boundary between any JSON values. > > ( "}" / "]" / %x22 / "e" / "l" / DIGIT ) *ws NL *ws ( "{" / "[" / %x22 / > "t" / "f" / "n" / "-" / DIGIT ) > Oh, good point. Of course, it's easier to seek to a single byte, but since I'd not require RS, might as well accept a somewhat more complex resync process. Note that this does require prefixing texts with whitespace. RS adds complexity (eg extra steps to strip RSs before passing to JSON > parser). Both add complexity, but I agree that your approach is better than RS. Nico -- --f46d043c82464a44c204f8daf7b5 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> In fact, any sequence of ( %x22 / "= ;]" / "}" ) %x0A ( %22 / "{" / "[" )
> works! =C2=A0Thus even for logfiles we can have arrays, objects, and > strings at the top-level.


Syncing to a boundary in the middle of a JSON sequence or log isn't a g= ood reason for RS. You can sync without RS. I think the following detects a= boundary between any JSON values.

( "}" / "]" / %x22 / "e" / "l" / DI= GIT ) *ws NL *ws ( "{" / "[" / %x22 / "t" / &= quot;f" / "n" / "-" / DIGIT )

Oh, good point. =C2=A0Of course, it's easier to see= k to a single byte, but since I'd not require RS, might as well accept = a somewhat more complex resync process.

Note that = this does require prefixing texts with whitespace.

RS adds complexity (eg extra steps to strip RSs before passing to JSON pars= er).

Both add complexity, but I agree that your = approach is better than RS.

Nico
--=C2=A0
--f46d043c82464a44c204f8daf7b5-- From nobody Wed May 7 22:13:45 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B11981A021E for ; Wed, 7 May 2014 22:13:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.251 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.251 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZZBwYbLzminv for ; Wed, 7 May 2014 22:13:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA1CE1A0224 for ; Wed, 7 May 2014 22:13:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1WiGOg-0007JN-9R; Thu, 08 May 2014 00:57:30 -0400 Date: Thu, 8 May 2014 00:57:30 -0400 From: John Cowan To: Carsten Bormann Message-ID: <20140508045730.GH22201@mercury.ccil.org> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Sender: John Cowan Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/889btXRHTs4U_ggAYu0M_JZNVdo Cc: "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] JSON Sequence support for log files X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 May 2014 05:13:44 -0000 Carsten Bormann scripsit: > [I’m too young to have extensive experience with ASR33s.] They ignored it, hence the TAB3 mode of termios.h. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org Here lies the Christian, judge, and poet Peter, Who broke the laws of God and man and metre. From nobody Thu May 8 15:13:32 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D81E1A0176 for ; Thu, 8 May 2014 15:13:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.044 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.044 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id odozAO_MTH0O for ; Thu, 8 May 2014 15:13:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a27.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88CB51A0173 for ; Thu, 8 May 2014 15:13:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a27.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a27.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C78E59805F for ; Thu, 8 May 2014 15:13:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:cc:content-type; s=cryptonector.com; bh=xn59vnu4k6Os904fKlMq gUyfFcs=; b=Xz64eNeoShKH3EYdEGjQE1JESgmMwvanloSav0EHB16ajmQOVLdi AA8Eo5S5CF7jZQ2RO1iYcqqmpqBotybg5W38jFE+Pi+p0Lq2GNqP7a4YL+t/+xtV QyAoAGCVSpY+hGvF/h1hxdT5Lert1WEgAzIgZcWykACNiBuyibn5Q3k= Received: from mail-we0-f169.google.com (mail-we0-f169.google.com [74.125.82.169]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a27.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B4619598058 for ; Thu, 8 May 2014 15:13:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-we0-f169.google.com with SMTP id u56so3188688wes.14 for ; Thu, 08 May 2014 15:13:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.108.147 with SMTP id hk19mr267482wib.42.1399587203498; Thu, 08 May 2014 15:13:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.29.200 with HTTP; Thu, 8 May 2014 15:13:23 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E11545BD3247@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> References: <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E11545BD3247@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> Date: Thu, 8 May 2014 17:13:23 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: "Manger, James" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/bKCP5FTuWqwSgjUPt_RIPu2RdDI Cc: Phillip Hallam-Baker , "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] JSON Sequence support for log files X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 May 2014 22:13:30 -0000 On Wed, May 7, 2014 at 8:45 PM, Manger, James wrote: > Syncing to a boundary in the middle of a JSON sequence or log isn't a good reason for RS. You can sync without RS. I think the following detects a boundary between any JSON values. > > ( "}" / "]" / %x22 / "e" / "l" / DIGIT ) *ws NL *ws ( "{" / "[" / %x22 / "t" / "f" / "n" / "-" / DIGIT ) Yes, it does, but it's only guaranteed to find boundaries where the preceding text is complete. This means that we need an optional/recommended heuristic for scanning backwards to find any valid/complete texts between the truncated/invalid one and any boundaries found with your rule. Otherwise one might be able to log a bogus entry so as to hide the subsequent one! Still, I like it. I'll be submitting -01 soon. Nico -- From nobody Thu May 8 15:17:38 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25BFC1A0176; Thu, 8 May 2014 15:17:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BD_Xqb5G2oSf; Thu, 8 May 2014 15:17:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB2E61A0173; Thu, 8 May 2014 15:17:32 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 5.4.2.p1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20140508221732.863.11775.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 08 May 2014 15:17:32 -0700 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/tkLm7EWiiSU_HeADk4_vDPJTxK8 Cc: json@ietf.org Subject: [Json] I-D Action: draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-01.txt X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 May 2014 22:17:34 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the JavaScript Object Notation Working Group of the IETF. Title : JavaScript Object Notation (JSON) Text Sequences Author : Nicolas Williams Filename : draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-01.txt Pages : 10 Date : 2014-05-08 Abstract: This document describes the JSON text sequence format and associated media type. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-json-text-sequence/ There's also a htmlized version available at: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-01 A diff from the previous version is available at: http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-01 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Thu May 8 15:18:44 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 568321A0147 for ; Thu, 8 May 2014 15:18:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.044 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.044 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26rcH1FQ_3TS for ; Thu, 8 May 2014 15:18:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a35.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E12B1A0173 for ; Thu, 8 May 2014 15:18:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a35.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a35.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D555B54058 for ; Thu, 8 May 2014 15:18:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; s= cryptonector.com; bh=EL11P1EgIYsZTrJpZAIYnwCQ1SA=; b=gMwtPv4wQez UzbiMHN62una87pciej+b9SxWVzcoZLql+1/0jC77OpSxyR6CGTyLY8UChFZOZVY D9+GN0kVCHL79GqPB0LceMTj/NJt9kOEexsgYzGHvsL2MYzLEiRmwSU5W1XhvkK/ nZwvjGkoZSF9L+tpFDqZXuLRg5esrh2U= Received: from mail-wg0-f41.google.com (mail-wg0-f41.google.com [74.125.82.41]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a35.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8A66254057 for ; Thu, 8 May 2014 15:18:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wg0-f41.google.com with SMTP id z12so3106001wgg.0 for ; Thu, 08 May 2014 15:18:35 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.108.147 with SMTP id hk19mr281759wib.42.1399587515525; Thu, 08 May 2014 15:18:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.29.200 with HTTP; Thu, 8 May 2014 15:18:35 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 8 May 2014 17:18:35 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: "json@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/o0hPkHo841LrBXYPLwLAkvzNuLo Subject: [Json] draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-01.txt submitted X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 May 2014 22:18:42 -0000 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Date: Thu, May 8, 2014 at 5:17 PM Subject: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-01.txt To: Nicolas Williams A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-01.txt has been successfully submitted by Nicolas Williams and posted to the IETF repository. Name: draft-ietf-json-text-sequence Revision: 01 Title: JavaScript Object Notation (JSON) Text Sequences Document date: 2014-05-08 Group: json Pages: 10 URL: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-01.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-json-text-sequence/ Htmlized: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-01 Diff: http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-01 Abstract: This document describes the JSON text sequence format and associated media type. Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. The IETF Secretariat From nobody Fri May 9 00:29:50 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8050A1A01FD for ; Fri, 9 May 2014 00:29:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.853 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.853 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jpkiWhhZ93Py for ; Fri, 9 May 2014 00:29:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rfc-editor.org (rfc-editor.org [4.31.198.49]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A2191A01F8 for ; Fri, 9 May 2014 00:29:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by rfc-editor.org (Postfix, from userid 30) id 9041718000D; Fri, 9 May 2014 00:29:01 -0700 (PDT) To: tbray@textuality.com, barryleiba@computer.org, presnick@qti.qualcomm.com, mamille2@cisco.com, paul.hoffman@vpnc.org X-PHP-Originating-Script: 6000:errata_mail_lib.php From: RFC Errata System Message-Id: <20140509072901.9041718000D@rfc-editor.org> Date: Fri, 9 May 2014 00:29:01 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/A17mG_gpvGcsyL7tYv16K3QX6p0 Cc: rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org, json@ietf.org, alainb06@free.fr Subject: [Json] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC7159 (3983) X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 May 2014 07:29:48 -0000 The following errata report has been submitted for RFC7159, "The JavaScript Object Notation (JSON) Data Interchange Format". -------------------------------------- You may review the report below and at: http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=7159&eid=3983 -------------------------------------- Type: Technical Reported by: Alain BENEDETTI Section: 2. Original Text ------------- JSON-text = ws value ws Corrected Text -------------- JSON-text = [BOM] ws value ws BOM = %xFEFF Notes ----- Section 8.1 states: [START QUOTE] (...) implementations that parse JSON texts *MAY* ignore the presence of a byte order mark rather than treating it as an error. [END QUOTE] Indeed that means that a BOM *CAN* occur, and *MAY* be accepted instead of returning an error. So, if the BOM can be accepted, the grammar is incomplete as it does not show it. Furthermore, about BOMs, see my other comments. Instructions: ------------- This errata is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party (IESG) can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary. -------------------------------------- RFC7159 (draft-ietf-json-rfc4627bis-rfc7159bis) -------------------------------------- Title : The JavaScript Object Notation (JSON) Data Interchange Format Publication Date : March 2014 Author(s) : T. Bray, Ed. Category : PROPOSED STANDARD Source : JavaScript Object Notation Area : Applications Stream : IETF Verifying Party : IESG From nobody Fri May 9 00:46:25 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD1231A01FF for ; Fri, 9 May 2014 00:46:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.853 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.853 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JE3NgO3BbzSx for ; Fri, 9 May 2014 00:46:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rfc-editor.org (rfc-editor.org [4.31.198.49]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F84D1A01FD for ; Fri, 9 May 2014 00:46:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by rfc-editor.org (Postfix, from userid 30) id 981D418000D; Fri, 9 May 2014 00:45:38 -0700 (PDT) To: tbray@textuality.com, barryleiba@computer.org, presnick@qti.qualcomm.com, mamille2@cisco.com, paul.hoffman@vpnc.org X-PHP-Originating-Script: 6000:errata_mail_lib.php From: RFC Errata System Message-Id: <20140509074538.981D418000D@rfc-editor.org> Date: Fri, 9 May 2014 00:45:38 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/Hc-17qSHNjOOqtVDGoGQxJemJeo Cc: rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org, json@ietf.org, alainb06@free.fr Subject: [Json] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC7159 (3984) X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 May 2014 07:46:25 -0000 The following errata report has been submitted for RFC7159, "The JavaScript Object Notation (JSON) Data Interchange Format". -------------------------------------- You may review the report below and at: http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=7159&eid=3984 -------------------------------------- Type: Technical Reported by: Alain BENEDETTI Section: 7 Original Text ------------- unescaped = %x20-21 / %x23-5B / %x5D-10FFFF Corrected Text -------------- unescaped = %x20-21 / %x23-5B / %x5D-D7FF / %xE000-10FFFF Notes ----- Section 1 says: [START QUOTE] A string is a sequence of zero or more Unicode characters [UNICODE]. Note that this citation references the latest version of Unicode rather than a specific release. [END QUOTE] Section 8.2 emphasizes on the characters not allowed by the Unicode norm: [START QUOTE] However, the ABNF in this specification allows member names and string values to contain bit sequences that cannot encode Unicode characters; for example, "\uDEAD" (a single unpaired UTF-16 surrogate). [END QUOTE] The ABNF cannot at the same time allow non conformant Unicode codepoints (section 7) and states conformance to Unicode (section 1). Therefore, there is an incoherence that must be fixed between section 1 (and 8.2 that emphasizes it) and section 7. Hence the proposition of modification in section 7. The other less preferable solution to this fix incoherence in RFC7159 would have been to NOT require Unicode conformance. Instructions: ------------- This errata is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party (IESG) can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary. -------------------------------------- RFC7159 (draft-ietf-json-rfc4627bis-rfc7159bis) -------------------------------------- Title : The JavaScript Object Notation (JSON) Data Interchange Format Publication Date : March 2014 Author(s) : T. Bray, Ed. Category : PROPOSED STANDARD Source : JavaScript Object Notation Area : Applications Stream : IETF Verifying Party : IESG From nobody Fri May 9 00:48:41 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7AF91A01FF for ; Fri, 9 May 2014 00:48:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QWGKZErLvzCC for ; Fri, 9 May 2014 00:48:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FB761A01FD for ; Fri, 9 May 2014 00:48:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s497mSO1012083; Fri, 9 May 2014 09:48:28 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.217.145] (p5489256C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.137.37.108]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E4C60122B; Fri, 9 May 2014 09:48:27 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.2 \(1874\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <20140509072901.9041718000D@rfc-editor.org> Date: Fri, 9 May 2014 09:48:26 +0200 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 421314506.161409-df77f40deb38ffe769e4b5639ef18cbe Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20140509072901.9041718000D@rfc-editor.org> To: IETF JSON WG X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1874) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/wWImYlUcVY4tL9-onBYeB9xftoI Cc: alainb06@free.fr Subject: Re: [Json] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC7159 (3983) X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 May 2014 07:48:40 -0000 The grammar in RFC 7159 is correct as it is; this errata should be = rejected. There has been strong consensus in the WG that JSON texts do not include = byte order marks. A license for receivers to be tolerant of a certain class of errors does = not change this. For clarification, If we ever get to issue another RFC, instead of: > (...) implementations that parse JSON texts *MAY* ignore the presence = of a byte order mark rather than treating it as an error. we maybe should write: > (...) implementations that parse JSON texts *MAY* ignore the presence = of a byte order mark in front of a JSON text rather than treating it as = an error. Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten From nobody Fri May 9 01:03:39 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2D671A020F for ; Fri, 9 May 2014 01:03:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.202 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.202 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_AU=0.377, HOST_EQ_AU=0.327, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RELAY_IS_203=0.994] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4lPCd6WjauoV for ; Fri, 9 May 2014 01:03:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ipxcvo.tcif.telstra.com.au (ipxcvo.tcif.telstra.com.au [203.35.135.208]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C16791A0208 for ; Fri, 9 May 2014 01:03:36 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.97,1016,1389704400"; d="scan'208";a="11816825" Received: from unknown (HELO ipcbvi.tcif.telstra.com.au) ([10.97.217.204]) by ipocvi.tcif.telstra.com.au with ESMTP; 09 May 2014 17:53:01 +1000 X-IronPort-AV: E=McAfee;i="5600,1067,7432"; a="221985255" Received: from wsmsg3752.srv.dir.telstra.com ([172.49.40.173]) by ipcbvi.tcif.telstra.com.au with ESMTP; 09 May 2014 18:03:30 +1000 Received: from WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com ([172.49.40.159]) by WSMSG3752.srv.dir.telstra.com ([172.49.40.173]) with mapi; Fri, 9 May 2014 18:03:29 +1000 From: "Manger, James" To: "json@ietf.org" Date: Fri, 9 May 2014 18:03:28 +1000 Thread-Topic: draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-01 comments Thread-Index: Ac9rXSjTPObWEgXwQZ+ndJKuSJ1cDw== Message-ID: <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E11545D24F7B@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> Accept-Language: en-US, en-AU Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US, en-AU Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/X_FvAPKaPnRz5eQhRcOyutAOLPQ Subject: [Json] draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-01 comments X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 May 2014 08:03:38 -0000 Q29tbWVudHMgb24gZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi1qc29uLXRleHQtc2VxdWVuY2UtMDENCg0KU2VjdGlvbiAy Lg0KDQpUaGUgcmVhc29uIHRvIE5PVCBSRVFVSVJFIGEgbmV3bGluZTogZXZlbiBpZiB0aGUgc3Bl YyBzYXlzIG5ld2xpbmVzIGFyZSByZXF1aXJlZCBzb21lIGltcGxlbWVudGF0aW9ucyBtYXkgYWNj ZXB0IG90aGVyIHNlcXVlbmNlcyB3aGVuIHRoZXkgYXJlIHVuYW1iaWd1b3VzIChzdWNoIGFzIHsi YSI6MX17ImIiOjJ9KTsgc29tZSBwZW9wbGUgd2lsbCByZWx5IG9uIHRoYXQgbGVuaWVuY3kgYW5k IG9taXQgbmV3bGluZXM7IGxlYWRpbmcgdG8gaW50ZXJvcCBwcm9ibGVtcyB3aXRoIGltcGxlbWVu dGF0aW9ucyB0aGF0IHJlcXVpcmUgbmV3bGluZXMgYXMgcGVyIHRoZSBzcGVjLg0KDQpBIHJlYXNv 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DQo= From nobody Fri May 9 08:45:09 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52FFF1A02D1 for ; Fri, 9 May 2014 08:45:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 36HKUt5OpJzw for ; Fri, 9 May 2014 08:45:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vc0-f170.google.com (mail-vc0-f170.google.com [209.85.220.170]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20E5D1A02C4 for ; Fri, 9 May 2014 08:45:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vc0-f170.google.com with SMTP id lf12so5552706vcb.1 for ; Fri, 09 May 2014 08:44:58 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08:44:58 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20140509074538.981D418000D@rfc-editor.org> References: <20140509074538.981D418000D@rfc-editor.org> Date: Fri, 9 May 2014 08:44:58 -0700 Message-ID: From: Tim Bray To: RFC Errata System Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b6da0eae01cf504f8f97a00 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/8D3Gt2uAhUHKYBpZw7a4u9xwZkE Cc: alainb06@free.fr, presnick@qti.qualcomm.com, Paul Hoffman , json@ietf.org, mamille2@cisco.com, barryleiba@computer.org Subject: Re: [Json] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC7159 (3984) X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 May 2014 15:45:06 -0000 --047d7b6da0eae01cf504f8f97a00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 The description of the erratum is correct as provided, but no change should be made. The design error in RFC 4627 that allows broken Unicode is a well known historical artifact and can't be legislated away. Note the interoperability guidance in 7159, which acknowledges this fact On May 9, 2014 12:46 AM, "RFC Errata System" wrote: > The following errata report has been submitted for RFC7159, > "The JavaScript Object Notation (JSON) Data Interchange Format". > > -------------------------------------- > You may review the report below and at: > http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=7159&eid=3984 > > -------------------------------------- > Type: Technical > Reported by: Alain BENEDETTI > > Section: 7 > > Original Text > ------------- > unescaped = %x20-21 / %x23-5B / %x5D-10FFFF > > Corrected Text > -------------- > unescaped = %x20-21 / %x23-5B / %x5D-D7FF / %xE000-10FFFF > > Notes > ----- > Section 1 says: > [START QUOTE] > A string is a sequence of zero or more Unicode characters [UNICODE]. Note > that this citation references the latest version of Unicode rather than a > specific release. > [END QUOTE] > > Section 8.2 emphasizes on the characters not allowed by the Unicode norm: > [START QUOTE] > However, the ABNF in this specification allows member names and string > values to contain bit sequences that cannot encode Unicode characters; for > example, "\uDEAD" (a single unpaired UTF-16 surrogate). > [END QUOTE] > > The ABNF cannot at the same time allow non conformant Unicode codepoints > (section 7) and states conformance to Unicode (section 1). > > Therefore, there is an incoherence that must be fixed between section 1 > (and 8.2 that emphasizes it) and section 7. Hence the proposition of > modification in section 7. > > The other less preferable solution to this fix incoherence in RFC7159 > would have been to NOT require Unicode conformance. > > Instructions: > ------------- > This errata is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please > use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or > rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party (IESG) > can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary. > > -------------------------------------- > RFC7159 (draft-ietf-json-rfc4627bis-rfc7159bis) > -------------------------------------- > Title : The JavaScript Object Notation (JSON) Data > Interchange Format > Publication Date : March 2014 > Author(s) : T. Bray, Ed. > Category : PROPOSED STANDARD > Source : JavaScript Object Notation > Area : Applications > Stream : IETF > Verifying Party : IESG > --047d7b6da0eae01cf504f8f97a00 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

The description of the erratum is correct as provided, but n= o change should be made. The design error in RFC 4627 that allows broken Un= icode is a well known historical artifact and can't be legislated away.= Note the interoperability guidance in 7159, which acknowledges this fact

On May 9, 2014 12:46 AM, "RFC Errata System= " <rfc-editor@rfc-edit= or.org> wrote:
http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc= =3D7159&eid=3D3984

--------------------------------------
Type: Technical
Reported by: Alain BENEDETTI <alainb= 06@free.fr>

Section: 7

Original Text
-------------
unescaped =3D %x20-21 / %x23-5B / %x5D-10FFFF

Corrected Text
--------------
unescaped =3D %x20-21 / %x23-5B / %x5D-D7FF / %xE000-10FFFF

Notes
-----
Section 1 says:
[START QUOTE]
A string is a sequence of zero or more Unicode characters [UNICODE]. Note t= hat this citation references the latest version of Unicode rather than a sp= ecific release.
[END QUOTE]

Section 8.2 emphasizes on the characters not allowed by the Unicode norm: [START QUOTE]
However, the ABNF in this specification allows member names and string valu= es to contain bit sequences that cannot encode Unicode characters; for exam= ple, "\uDEAD" (a single unpaired UTF-16 surrogate).
[END QUOTE]

The ABNF cannot at the same time allow non conformant Unicode codepoints (s= ection 7) and states conformance to Unicode (section 1).

Therefore, there is an incoherence that must be fixed between section 1 (an= d 8.2 that emphasizes it) and section 7. Hence the proposition of modificat= ion in section 7.

The other less preferable solution to this fix incoherence in RFC7159 would= have been to NOT require Unicode conformance.

Instructions:
-------------
This errata is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, plea= se
use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or
rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party (IESG)
can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary.

--------------------------------------
RFC7159 (draft-ietf-json-rfc4627bis-rfc7159bis)
--------------------------------------
Title =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : The JavaScript Obj= ect Notation (JSON) Data Interchange Format
Publication Date =C2=A0 =C2=A0: March 2014
Author(s) =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : T. Bray, Ed.
Category =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: PROPOSED STANDARD
Source =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: JavaScript Object = Notation
Area =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: Applications<= br> Stream =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: IETF
Verifying Party =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : IESG
--047d7b6da0eae01cf504f8f97a00-- From nobody Fri May 9 09:09:40 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B24A1A002F for ; Fri, 9 May 2014 09:09:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.152 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.152 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fYzT_b-Q3H1G for ; Fri, 9 May 2014 09:09:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com [173.37.86.73]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC9161A0008 for ; Fri, 9 May 2014 09:09:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=2801; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1399651772; x=1400861372; h=message-id:date:from:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=d1yMRAukhdtwEMNgX7hPTHPQf2B1PK7XiyGI7ELxpUo=; b=PioFEf0N003IyEprHXm926NHKbMhvyhDOywAXXuY3hlxkeW1t93VtdKN EcMPzACj5pimOe0YV4mQyvHz8H50257+FMljSUUZvTf0CLdty4FdzGJDi PUHI8lIeU4iesjHVhG1RQv9d2f0CFnHPvzXaYz2RM8GcI+BlkHp2LLmzh 4=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ag0HAO/8bFOtJA2D/2dsb2JhbAA/GoMGT1irKAEBAQEBB5ZggzgBgRgWdIIlAQEBBHgBEAsYCRYPCQMCAQIBRQYBDAEFAgEBiCkDBgsNNsotDIYgF4VWhW2CXDMHhEABA4lUOotBg3iTAoNVThGBMQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.97,1019,1389744000"; d="scan'208";a="323656915" Received: from alln-core-1.cisco.com ([173.36.13.131]) by rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 09 May 2014 16:09:31 +0000 Received: from xhc-rcd-x05.cisco.com (xhc-rcd-x05.cisco.com [173.37.183.79]) by alln-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s49G9VA0019668 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Fri, 9 May 2014 16:09:31 GMT Received: from MAMILLE2-M-T03K.CISCO.COM (10.129.24.57) by xhc-rcd-x05.cisco.com (173.37.183.79) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.123.3; Fri, 9 May 2014 11:09:31 -0500 Message-ID: <536CFDBA.4030408@cisco.com> Date: Fri, 9 May 2014 10:09:30 -0600 From: Matt Miller User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: RFC Errata System , , , , References: <20140509072901.9041718000D@rfc-editor.org> In-Reply-To: <20140509072901.9041718000D@rfc-editor.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: [10.129.24.57] Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/vH23c-JmWs0zfxIj7SMY-UtVD0Q Cc: json@ietf.org, alainb06@free.fr Subject: Re: [Json] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC7159 (3983) X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 May 2014 16:09:39 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 RFC Editor: Please reject this erratum. The WG consensus was to exclude the byte-order from the ABNF, and leave it to implementations whether to be more liberal in what is accepted. Thank you, - -- - - m&m Matt Miller < mamille2@cisco.com > Cisco Systems, Inc. On 5/9/14, 1:29 AM, RFC Errata System wrote: > The following errata report has been submitted for RFC7159, "The > JavaScript Object Notation (JSON) Data Interchange Format". > > -------------------------------------- You may review the report > below and at: > http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=7159&eid=3983 > > -------------------------------------- Type: Technical Reported by: > Alain BENEDETTI > > Section: 2. > > Original Text ------------- JSON-text = ws value ws > > Corrected Text -------------- JSON-text = [BOM] ws value ws > > BOM = %xFEFF > > Notes ----- Section 8.1 states: [START QUOTE] (...) implementations > that parse JSON texts *MAY* ignore the presence of a byte order > mark rather than treating it as an error. [END QUOTE] > > Indeed that means that a BOM *CAN* occur, and *MAY* be accepted > instead of returning an error. So, if the BOM can be accepted, the > grammar is incomplete as it does not show it. > > Furthermore, about BOMs, see my other comments. > > Instructions: ------------- This errata is currently posted as > "Reported". If necessary, please use "Reply All" to discuss whether > it should be verified or rejected. When a decision is reached, the > verifying party (IESG) can log in to change the status and edit the > report, if necessary. > > -------------------------------------- RFC7159 > (draft-ietf-json-rfc4627bis-rfc7159bis) > -------------------------------------- Title : The > JavaScript Object Notation (JSON) Data Interchange Format > Publication Date : March 2014 Author(s) : T. Bray, > Ed. Category : PROPOSED STANDARD Source : > JavaScript Object Notation Area : Applications > Stream : IETF Verifying Party : IESG > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.22 (Darwin) Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQEcBAEBCgAGBQJTbP26AAoJEDWi+S0W7cO1g5gH/0kqDoYdYfJ+V4DUgTThKczf JmQAc8BjLo9IzOnDN8IlcSqd1mdQa0r5G0EltnPilmoSVz6JBpxRZ81psGhXFxyX 8h33e0mF1BYqSZ/I9NWNX9ClKGTrKLH6pnzJyVUrgY24hVmQogE2sqIEuNF9mB+J jVdVYbfKYLogrPDhUcic1qEQQOccYcoihAxmtpSmQirGXtL1zH1Wl77mEu7B30CA SGVRlV2u6caDFkdWZc8NtWAf1QgWExVYaQT1JWUO2ySdsi0wgMeEZAK9nB479ke3 DcYdvANa5CmowclivUefOdVJa80eDHCUp4Aun/7G33hmu5vgBeM0BmQP9gU7GiE= =4lkO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From nobody Fri May 9 09:09:54 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD6E51A0089 for ; Fri, 9 May 2014 09:09:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.152 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.152 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eaa4EPYRZpmn for ; Fri, 9 May 2014 09:09:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-6.cisco.com (alln-iport-6.cisco.com [173.37.142.93]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E521C1A0088 for ; Fri, 9 May 2014 09:09:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=3419; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1399651786; x=1400861386; h=message-id:date:from:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=IuIOH6/OyDuOsFXbCc1stwQ5MJgK9rhPpaNRl3hgIFU=; b=CgnCPghhs9nE2+tds16cgTU1O8yRHyrm5AUZTL/2hliJni2l5/W8UU2N feZp3dJy/bT/jplqvcRGIIq8ANsYYVkWpUt37szCleA1BwXhVV52oOPT7 MvX4L2ZwWYW7togBtU6HaSQSEPDToRtb9iD3FXjc1XXgQ9K68EBoGOXYX M=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ag0HADP9bFOtJA2E/2dsb2JhbAA/GoMGT1irKAEBAQEBB5ZggzgBgRgWdIIlAQEBBHgBEAsYCRYPCQMCAQIBRQYBDAEFAgEBF4gSAwYLDTbKLgyGIBeFVoVtglwzB4RAAQOJVDqPOZMCg1VOEYEx X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.97,1019,1389744000"; d="scan'208";a="42491061" Received: from alln-core-10.cisco.com ([173.36.13.132]) by alln-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 09 May 2014 16:09:45 +0000 Received: from xhc-rcd-x05.cisco.com (xhc-rcd-x05.cisco.com [173.37.183.79]) by alln-core-10.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s49G9jRB013645 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Fri, 9 May 2014 16:09:45 GMT Received: from MAMILLE2-M-T03K.CISCO.COM (10.129.24.57) by xhc-rcd-x05.cisco.com (173.37.183.79) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.123.3; Fri, 9 May 2014 11:09:45 -0500 Message-ID: <536CFDC8.8030601@cisco.com> Date: Fri, 9 May 2014 10:09:44 -0600 From: Matt Miller User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: RFC Errata System , , , , References: <20140509074538.981D418000D@rfc-editor.org> In-Reply-To: <20140509074538.981D418000D@rfc-editor.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: [10.129.24.57] Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/Mbd6j59EuCwrkiN0uCFXcY7SSj0 Cc: json@ietf.org, alainb06@free.fr Subject: Re: [Json] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC7159 (3984) X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 May 2014 16:09:53 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 RFC Editor: please reject this erratum. The WG's consensus was to leave the full range present in the ABNF and add the interoperability guidance about values outside the Unicode accepted range. Thank you, - -- - - m&m Matt Miller < mamille2@cisco.com > Cisco Systems, Inc. On 5/9/14, 1:45 AM, RFC Errata System wrote: > The following errata report has been submitted for RFC7159, "The > JavaScript Object Notation (JSON) Data Interchange Format". > > -------------------------------------- You may review the report > below and at: > http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=7159&eid=3984 > > -------------------------------------- Type: Technical Reported by: > Alain BENEDETTI > > Section: 7 > > Original Text ------------- unescaped = %x20-21 / %x23-5B / > %x5D-10FFFF > > Corrected Text -------------- unescaped = %x20-21 / %x23-5B / > %x5D-D7FF / %xE000-10FFFF > > Notes ----- Section 1 says: [START QUOTE] A string is a sequence of > zero or more Unicode characters [UNICODE]. Note that this citation > references the latest version of Unicode rather than a specific > release. [END QUOTE] > > Section 8.2 emphasizes on the characters not allowed by the Unicode > norm: [START QUOTE] However, the ABNF in this specification allows > member names and string values to contain bit sequences that cannot > encode Unicode characters; for example, "\uDEAD" (a single unpaired > UTF-16 surrogate). [END QUOTE] > > The ABNF cannot at the same time allow non conformant Unicode > codepoints (section 7) and states conformance to Unicode (section > 1). > > Therefore, there is an incoherence that must be fixed between > section 1 (and 8.2 that emphasizes it) and section 7. Hence the > proposition of modification in section 7. > > The other less preferable solution to this fix incoherence in > RFC7159 would have been to NOT require Unicode conformance. > > Instructions: ------------- This errata is currently posted as > "Reported". If necessary, please use "Reply All" to discuss whether > it should be verified or rejected. When a decision is reached, the > verifying party (IESG) can log in to change the status and edit the > report, if necessary. > > -------------------------------------- RFC7159 > (draft-ietf-json-rfc4627bis-rfc7159bis) > -------------------------------------- Title : The > JavaScript Object Notation (JSON) Data Interchange Format > Publication Date : March 2014 Author(s) : T. Bray, > Ed. Category : PROPOSED STANDARD Source : > JavaScript Object Notation Area : Applications > Stream : IETF Verifying Party : IESG > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.22 (Darwin) Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQEcBAEBCgAGBQJTbP3IAAoJEDWi+S0W7cO1mjIH/3v6dAZl59zVAo47htMfnuHB lnv9lcP7exnHwf6fygF807CXVa5nknq8W24DyaSZWscnVm+BuHCU6/3e/ra+8Hhk ZSuOqnb3Axt0tkGOvXys8HNq25tfGmnaaV6FGLPHRr/ZNcQSh9VohFcbcisi/5tc aGh0kp6PbZdGslMczZMPBEvwTUD1+z7IhcC4M2MSIHjIr7OZoFklmzRsglaCu2+l iWz3bZCezKjFjCm9PwP6adQ0/myKEOGKzMUBi1eddGNTJ2+pmcmNgi+3aLxAsR1B Rpd9UB/FfbibyRI7p4voQgxqowM/0zrUAlWyuzrQZLAH8r+UWeV0hQ2qjRAEB7A= =Oju4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From nobody Fri May 9 10:22:13 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C49341A0066 for ; Fri, 9 May 2014 10:22:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.044 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.044 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tTBKovuYuSZP for ; Fri, 9 May 2014 10:22:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a67.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5E521A005E for ; Fri, 9 May 2014 10:22:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a67.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a67.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1C6827BC064 for ; Fri, 9 May 2014 10:21:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s= cryptonector.com; bh=gT736F/GIa/d5YmS3qmZORoF334=; b=t+oE45kvOIp 9+uOJCURqa+uqrwklDycJ8jxN+rmNzXjmIAe3qjyVkpibVlrP8WudkoKVjJTFI5u PY1qv8I60XkfS1a2pm406ROt7+y02qpJfQyo5n3kFObRmcr4UMJrEo95w0SVKF9d 28xLfZZ8HvKn/0AgIVyPks7s36r+qlh0= Received: from mail-we0-f176.google.com (mail-we0-f176.google.com [74.125.82.176]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a67.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5589527BC05D for ; Fri, 9 May 2014 10:21:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-we0-f176.google.com with SMTP id q59so4272204wes.35 for ; Fri, 09 May 2014 10:21:57 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.119.34 with SMTP id kr2mr9651939wjb.34.1399656117225; Fri, 09 May 2014 10:21:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.29.200 with HTTP; Fri, 9 May 2014 10:21:57 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E11545D24F7B@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> References: <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E11545D24F7B@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> Date: Fri, 9 May 2014 12:21:57 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: "Manger, James" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/0vAcNdZjUaZ-svBZCSApAMJgvTQ Cc: "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-01 comments X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 May 2014 17:22:05 -0000 On Fri, May 9, 2014 at 3:03 AM, Manger, James wrote: > Comments on draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-01 > > Section 2. > > The reason to NOT REQUIRE a newline: even if the spec says newlines are r= equired some implementations may accept other sequences when they are unamb= iguous (such as {"a":1}{"b":2}); some people will rely on that leniency and= omit newlines; leading to interop problems with implementations that requi= re newlines as per the spec. > > A reason to REQUIRE a newline: it makes it feasible to find the start of = the next JSON value from anywhere within a sequence (ie resync). I think that's right, sequence encoders should be REQUIRED to emit a newline after any JSON text (and possibly other whitespace). (FTR, jq does always emit a newline after any JSON text.) > The draft 01 rule of requiring a whitespace, but not necessarily a newlin= e, is the worst solution. It still allows interop problems if people rely o= n lenient implementations. It doesn=E2=80=99t guarantee that resync is poss= ible. Agreed. I'll change it. > Suggested text: > > JSON-sequence =3D *whitespace *(JSON-text *whitespace %x0A *whitespace) Is '*whitespace %x0A *whitespace' valid, considering that %x0A is in whitespace? A greedy parser might choke on that! Just in case: JSON-sequence =3D *whitespace *(JSON-text *whitespace2 %x0A *whitespace) whitespace =3D %x20 / %x09 / %x0A / %x0D whitespace2 =3D %x20 / %x09 / %x0D JSON-text =3D I don't have a similar workaround for the resync heuristic ABNF. > Section 3. Use for logfiles > > This section would be better if it focussed on being able to detect the s= tart of the next JSON value from anywhere in a JSON sequence, ie resynchron= ise. Good point. It's nice to be able to seek to arbitrary offsets and find the next entry. Traditional syslog-style log files allow that. > This can be useful for random access to a log file, or for recovering aft= er an entry is corrupted (eg truncated due to a power failure part way thro= ugh a write). Yes. > I would drop the details of trying to recover the 1st entry immediately a= fter a truncated entry. I don't think it is feasible in general (eg when va= lues are numbers); you can't even detect some truncations (eg truncating a = whole entry); and the "scan backwards .. looking for a newline followed by = a valid JSON text" sounds wrong as the previous newline has been truncated.= Scanning back (from a boundary) a char at a time until the whole lot parse= s as valid JSON is probably the best you can do. Clearly truncation of whole entries and truncation of trailing whitespace can't be detected this way, but that's to be expected and I don't think it's a problem. Being able to scan backwards would be nice though. Scanning backwards for boundaries that are followed by texts that parse is a fallible heuristic unless texts have no internal newlines (so that's a very good reason to forbid internal newlines in _logfiles_, but probably not as a general rule). > Section 4. Security considerations > > The 3rd paragraph no longer applies as whitespace (or hopefully newline) = is always required. I don't agree that it's not required. If you have a json_loads() type function that wants to be fed a complete text, and if input texts have internal newlines, then you might have to repeatedly try json_loads(), first with one line, then two, ... This is clearly not a good idea, and that's what that paragraph warns about. > Section 5. IANA considerations > > As we are specifying a media type, why not define a fragment id. For inst= ance, > a fragment id that is a decimal integer n (matching 1*DIGIT) selects the = nth entry in the sequence. > > Typo: change NL to %x0A in the ABNF. > Typo: "form a logical end" to "from a logical end" Finding the nth entry might require a linear search for it! Finding the first entry from an arbitrary byte offset into the sequence does not. (I've been thinking for a while that I'd like to have a SQLite3 virtual table plugin for use with logfiles that assigns rows an integer rowid that corresponds to the byte offset into the logfile where the corresponding log entry is found. This allows table scans, and it allows for indexing by rowid. Then one could create an auxiliary index mapping any date to the rowid of the first log entry for that day... This is would be very fast and handy, and it would make it possible to use SQL for querying logfiles without having to build/use keyword indexes. Whereas assigning log entries logical, sequential rowids would be much slower!) Nico -- From nobody Fri May 9 10:31:29 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20ECF1A004E for ; Fri, 9 May 2014 10:31:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.044 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.044 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5iPb3k9_96tz for ; Fri, 9 May 2014 10:31:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a77.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 982501A0012 for ; Fri, 9 May 2014 10:31:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a77.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a77.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC3A994065 for ; Fri, 9 May 2014 10:31:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:cc:content-type; s=cryptonector.com; bh=HaT/OEtxOD2SKS6PZoov niKqKYM=; b=Bgnr58DACM9mzWdptVhzmoGSfggA/0CgR229KTLpDE1bITqPwtNo s6orLDw+gf7sKhAYsRGan0rlsBXa5MiPpnUSXd67QAPxtqikGJo/b+nJw/q+Yabm i2oPke5wMITCLIvFiQdcQEscNtUNpED3XCMOTOvAhxPNGAjfVBUMRKQ= Received: from mail-we0-f176.google.com (mail-we0-f176.google.com [74.125.82.176]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a77.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5A54A9405E for ; Fri, 9 May 2014 10:31:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-we0-f176.google.com with SMTP id q59so4184923wes.21 for ; Fri, 09 May 2014 10:31:20 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.181.5.6 with SMTP id ci6mr4260201wid.39.1399656680191; Fri, 09 May 2014 10:31:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.29.200 with HTTP; Fri, 9 May 2014 10:31:20 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E11545D24F7B@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> Date: Fri, 9 May 2014 12:31:20 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: "Manger, James" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/RwT8Yg7XbTOjStASsBwKzUgFG8s Cc: "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-01 comments X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 May 2014 17:31:27 -0000 > I don't have a similar workaround for the resync heuristic ABNF. Yes I do. Never mind. -02 shortly to be submitted. From nobody Fri May 9 10:32:01 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95D071A01F3; Fri, 9 May 2014 10:32:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id J04ZafWUD2j5; Fri, 9 May 2014 10:31:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9916A1A0066; Fri, 9 May 2014 10:31:59 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 5.4.2.p1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20140509173159.28855.94523.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 09 May 2014 10:31:59 -0700 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/QsYIAcmcubAvK55MdzaqiQyja3I Cc: json@ietf.org Subject: [Json] I-D Action: draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-02.txt X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 May 2014 17:32:00 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the JavaScript Object Notation Working Group of the IETF. Title : JavaScript Object Notation (JSON) Text Sequences Author : Nicolas Williams Filename : draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-02.txt Pages : 10 Date : 2014-05-09 Abstract: This document describes the JSON text sequence format and associated media type. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-json-text-sequence/ There's also a htmlized version available at: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-02 A diff from the previous version is available at: http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-02 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Fri May 9 15:36:35 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 069021A0102 for ; Fri, 9 May 2014 15:36:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.652 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.652 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1y-8tu2x4gvb for ; Fri, 9 May 2014 15:36:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sabertooth01.qualcomm.com (sabertooth01.qualcomm.com [65.197.215.72]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 234811A00F6 for ; Fri, 9 May 2014 15:36:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=qti.qualcomm.com; i=@qti.qualcomm.com; q=dns/txt; s=qcdkim; t=1399674987; x=1431210987; h=message-id:date:from:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=eqXy96n/whrehc/F8yN9sLzFUjzxooHfYofUjium+bU=; b=EAZFjSW321J1G1Fj5A5KOM9Qn2Y8xBvL7swJ2t8SOpe0MhsIY3fG1Yev EfmSI7IfYBmNbcQ0eSGS1C6LUu3uhhUgNXhM/WNinAlh/zSz2DJ+4ffOf NUMj5oeiGQa+aGHng12aqpMyTz8GwCvWbbq3ATSCAwlJjgypuLIs1M08C g=; X-IronPort-AV: E=McAfee;i="5600,1067,7433"; a="63184576" Received: from ironmsg04-r.qualcomm.com ([172.30.46.18]) by sabertooth01.qualcomm.com with ESMTP; 09 May 2014 15:36:26 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.97,1020,1389772800"; d="scan'208";a="729855711" Received: from nasanexhc08.na.qualcomm.com ([172.30.39.7]) by Ironmsg04-R.qualcomm.com with ESMTP/TLS/RC4-SHA; 09 May 2014 15:36:26 -0700 Received: from presnick-mac.local (172.30.39.5) by qcmail1.qualcomm.com (172.30.39.7) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.181.6; Fri, 9 May 2014 15:36:40 -0700 Message-ID: <536D5867.6000909@qti.qualcomm.com> Date: Fri, 9 May 2014 17:36:23 -0500 From: Pete Resnick User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; en-US; rv:1.9.1.9) Gecko/20100630 Eudora/3.0.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Matt Miller References: <20140509072901.9041718000D@rfc-editor.org> <536CFDBA.4030408@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <536CFDBA.4030408@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: [172.30.39.5] Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/Ra4Cjb2RC9eSOZRmZ9XqBp0rZNI Cc: barryleiba@computer.org, paul.hoffman@vpnc.org, json@ietf.org, tbray@textuality.com, alainb06@free.fr, RFC Errata System Subject: Re: [Json] [Technical Errata Reported] RFC7159 (3983) X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 May 2014 22:36:34 -0000 Actually, it's an AD who marks things as Verified/Rejected/etc., so I will go do so (with this and the other). pr On 5/9/14 11:09 AM, Matt Miller wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA512 > > RFC Editor: Please reject this erratum. > > The WG consensus was to exclude the byte-order from the ABNF, and > leave it to implementations whether to be more liberal in what is > accepted. > > > Thank you, > > - -- > - - m&m > > Matt Miller< mamille2@cisco.com> > Cisco Systems, Inc. > > On 5/9/14, 1:29 AM, RFC Errata System wrote: > >> The following errata report has been submitted for RFC7159, "The >> JavaScript Object Notation (JSON) Data Interchange Format". >> >> -------------------------------------- You may review the report >> below and at: >> http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=7159&eid=3983 >> >> -------------------------------------- Type: Technical Reported by: >> Alain BENEDETTI >> >> Section: 2. >> >> Original Text ------------- JSON-text = ws value ws >> >> Corrected Text -------------- JSON-text = [BOM] ws value ws >> >> BOM = %xFEFF >> >> Notes ----- Section 8.1 states: [START QUOTE] (...) implementations >> that parse JSON texts *MAY* ignore the presence of a byte order >> mark rather than treating it as an error. [END QUOTE] >> >> Indeed that means that a BOM *CAN* occur, and *MAY* be accepted >> instead of returning an error. So, if the BOM can be accepted, the >> grammar is incomplete as it does not show it. >> >> Furthermore, about BOMs, see my other comments. >> >> Instructions: ------------- This errata is currently posted as >> "Reported". If necessary, please use "Reply All" to discuss whether >> it should be verified or rejected. When a decision is reached, the >> verifying party (IESG) can log in to change the status and edit the >> report, if necessary. >> >> -------------------------------------- RFC7159 >> (draft-ietf-json-rfc4627bis-rfc7159bis) >> -------------------------------------- Title : The >> JavaScript Object Notation (JSON) Data Interchange Format >> Publication Date : March 2014 Author(s) : T. Bray, >> Ed. Category : PROPOSED STANDARD Source : >> JavaScript Object Notation Area : Applications >> Stream : IETF Verifying Party : IESG >> >> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.22 (Darwin) > Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org > Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ > > iQEcBAEBCgAGBQJTbP26AAoJEDWi+S0W7cO1g5gH/0kqDoYdYfJ+V4DUgTThKczf > JmQAc8BjLo9IzOnDN8IlcSqd1mdQa0r5G0EltnPilmoSVz6JBpxRZ81psGhXFxyX > 8h33e0mF1BYqSZ/I9NWNX9ClKGTrKLH6pnzJyVUrgY24hVmQogE2sqIEuNF9mB+J > jVdVYbfKYLogrPDhUcic1qEQQOccYcoihAxmtpSmQirGXtL1zH1Wl77mEu7B30CA > SGVRlV2u6caDFkdWZc8NtWAf1QgWExVYaQT1JWUO2ySdsi0wgMeEZAK9nB479ke3 > DcYdvANa5CmowclivUefOdVJa80eDHCUp4Aun/7G33hmu5vgBeM0BmQP9gU7GiE= > =4lkO > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > -- Pete Resnick Qualcomm Technologies, Inc. - +1 (858)651-4478 From nobody Wed May 14 11:32:50 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C42681A013E for ; Wed, 14 May 2014 11:32:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.347 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.347 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ppSoXv7L5DZV for ; Wed, 14 May 2014 11:32:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hoffman.proper.com (IPv6.Hoffman.Proper.COM [IPv6:2605:8e00:100:41::81]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BBE51A013C for ; Wed, 14 May 2014 11:32:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.20.30.90] (50-1-51-90.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com [50.1.51.90]) (authenticated bits=0) by hoffman.proper.com (8.14.8/8.14.7) with ESMTP id s4EIWc48010916 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 14 May 2014 11:32:40 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: hoffman.proper.com: Host 50-1-51-90.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com [50.1.51.90] claimed to be [10.20.30.90] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.2 \(1874\)) From: Paul Hoffman In-Reply-To: <20140509173159.28855.94523.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 14 May 2014 11:32:35 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20140509173159.28855.94523.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> To: IETF JSON WG X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1874) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/8jl8hPoWlgD801GXL-Bxc0xNMpM Subject: [Json] Seeking more input on draft-ietf-json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 May 2014 18:32:48 -0000 Greetings again. Wearing my chair hat, I encourage people in the group = (especially you quiet types) to review this WG draft and let the WG know = what you think. The idea of JSON text sequences has many applications, = and folks have invented things like this in the past for their own = internal purposes. We would like to make sure that this document covers = as many use cases as possible. --Paul Hoffman On May 9, 2014, at 10:31 AM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: >=20 > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts = directories. > This draft is a work item of the JavaScript Object Notation Working = Group of the IETF. >=20 > Title : JavaScript Object Notation (JSON) Text = Sequences > Author : Nicolas Williams > Filename : draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-02.txt > Pages : 10 > Date : 2014-05-09 >=20 > Abstract: > This document describes the JSON text sequence format and associated > media type. >=20 >=20 > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-json-text-sequence/ >=20 > There's also a htmlized version available at: > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-02 >=20 > A diff from the previous version is available at: > http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-json-text-sequence-02 From nobody Fri May 16 11:28:18 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C13031A0296 for ; Fri, 16 May 2014 10:45:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.152 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.152 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NLzZid3abkLe for ; Fri, 16 May 2014 10:45:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-6.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-6.cisco.com [173.37.86.77]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 910521A026B for ; Fri, 16 May 2014 10:45:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1007; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1400262340; x=1401471940; h=message-id:date:from:mime-version:to:subject:references: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=V5+NIKoOKJ/3kTYvPzMY/KEyDIyAr3IlIlf+RBzDK7Q=; b=LH9WB3c4euANsbIOcNIq0Jr5rKQZpU7L74gVlxV97fp+pUuKOQg651sW PnAyTIUBW8gmxTICuLWU0E5BfSK2QYwkjNeO27kbr7ea03kCRf1PjQtm+ xgckHZpyg5YKQO/WxEipENL8dwSekhj67fwvscmAWCiVbeBrvRxCnr9Xj k=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AusKALpNdlOtJV2b/2dsb2JhbABZgwZPWIEggUmmYQUFAZodAYEXFnSCJgEBBCNmCxoCBSECAg8CRgYNBgIBAYg9rUqkMReBKoQriEc6FoJfgUsBA4oUj0STGYNWghE X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.97,1068,1389744000"; d="scan'208";a="325526572" Received: from rcdn-core-4.cisco.com ([173.37.93.155]) by rcdn-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 16 May 2014 17:45:39 +0000 Received: from xhc-rcd-x05.cisco.com (xhc-rcd-x05.cisco.com [173.37.183.79]) by rcdn-core-4.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s4GHjdkB006121 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL) for ; Fri, 16 May 2014 17:45:39 GMT Received: from MAMILLE2-M-T03K.CISCO.COM (10.129.24.57) by xhc-rcd-x05.cisco.com (173.37.183.79) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.123.3; Fri, 16 May 2014 12:45:39 -0500 Message-ID: <53764EC2.20003@cisco.com> Date: Fri, 16 May 2014 11:45:38 -0600 From: Matt Miller User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: References: <535EAFDF.2020403@cisco.com> <6456FCD4-E410-4FAB-96D0-E46260AABD9D@vpnc.org> <53607EA9.50204@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <53608F11.7080709@drees.name> In-Reply-To: <53608F11.7080709@drees.name> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: [10.129.24.57] Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/My6CsuIFzibWJAoPGxBJnMiAkEE Subject: Re: [Json] I-JSON Topic #1: Media Types? X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 May 2014 17:45:50 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 It has been several days since the last discussion on this topic. As it currently stands, it appears the rough consensus is to *NOT* define a media type or media type suffix for I-JSON. Does anyone have more to day with regards to I-JSON and media types? - -- - - m&m Matt Miller < mamille2@cisco.com > Cisco Systems, Inc. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.22 (Darwin) Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQEcBAEBCgAGBQJTdk7CAAoJEDWi+S0W7cO1618H/2+gC/Ji18/xCeL8nh/agaBP QfwisdQiwukcISAp84MZDCZ1jhH+HLfIwbd0R5hdYzyysCgtOYTEg7WxzSUIZows bnfX5ziJPPJiZGpUYXRl06mg1EsaN+mEJpbLpDAUk9rX1ulrD2Qa+VS1ggU59mtE 4hexDKR4wXwPGe7mPsaRx6WlkH0jO/ZlvA+9f1df15KaTcMMozpxoyOW4g8grXf2 QbXx7349jQet7g8halO07reKgpZwqGXI3/HU1BwLamurr3p4kMDS4k5ORL/9FL3A ey0MRRdU3iPbu9uzW+cm1490YUolKOx0LZ5gWB22DTR5gjL9YuDaA7uanenlndA= =QiVy -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From nobody Fri May 16 11:44:10 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 020D51A030C; Fri, 16 May 2014 11:44:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.853 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.853 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id liC_LwVQiGI6; Fri, 16 May 2014 11:44:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rfc-editor.org (rfc-editor.org [4.31.198.49]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A21211A02DA; Fri, 16 May 2014 11:44:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by rfc-editor.org (Postfix, from userid 30) id 3D43F180095; Fri, 16 May 2014 11:42:57 -0700 (PDT) To: alainb06@free.fr, tbray@textuality.com X-PHP-Originating-Script: 1005:errata_mail_lib.php From: RFC Errata System Message-Id: <20140516184257.3D43F180095@rfc-editor.org> Date: Fri, 16 May 2014 11:42:57 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/Y0JAYROoqFEDDQP3UyKNz_41iLk Cc: presnick@qti.qualcomm.com, rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org, iesg@ietf.org, json@ietf.org Subject: [Json] [Errata Rejected] RFC7159 (3983) X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 May 2014 18:44:09 -0000 The following errata report has been rejected for RFC7159, "The JavaScript Object Notation (JSON) Data Interchange Format". -------------------------------------- You may review the report below and at: http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=7159&eid=3983 -------------------------------------- Status: Rejected Type: Technical Reported by: Alain BENEDETTI Date Reported: 2014-05-09 Rejected by: Pete Resnick (IESG) Section: 2. Original Text ------------- JSON-text = ws value ws Corrected Text -------------- JSON-text = [BOM] ws value ws BOM = %xFEFF Notes ----- Section 8.1 states: [START QUOTE] (...) implementations that parse JSON texts *MAY* ignore the presence of a byte order mark rather than treating it as an error. [END QUOTE] Indeed that means that a BOM *CAN* occur, and *MAY* be accepted instead of returning an error. So, if the BOM can be accepted, the grammar is incomplete as it does not show it. Furthermore, about BOMs, see my other comments. --VERIFIER NOTES-- The WG was clear that syntactically, the BOM is not part of a valid JSON-text, but implementation advice included that if one appears, it MAY be ignored. The document is correct as-is. -------------------------------------- RFC7159 (draft-ietf-json-rfc4627bis-rfc7159bis) -------------------------------------- Title : The JavaScript Object Notation (JSON) Data Interchange Format Publication Date : March 2014 Author(s) : T. Bray, Ed. Category : PROPOSED STANDARD Source : JavaScript Object Notation Area : Applications Stream : IETF Verifying Party : IESG From nobody Fri May 16 11:45:56 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DE1D1A02DA; Fri, 16 May 2014 11:45:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.853 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.853 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8o7W-BnKKWRI; Fri, 16 May 2014 11:45:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rfc-editor.org (rfc-editor.org [4.31.198.49]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 286EF1A030C; Fri, 16 May 2014 11:45:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by rfc-editor.org (Postfix, from userid 30) id B4F67180095; Fri, 16 May 2014 11:44:39 -0700 (PDT) To: alainb06@free.fr, tbray@textuality.com X-PHP-Originating-Script: 1005:errata_mail_lib.php From: RFC Errata System Message-Id: <20140516184439.B4F67180095@rfc-editor.org> Date: Fri, 16 May 2014 11:44:39 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/2FS-wP5FAQo8OIt1258rCRZkuGc Cc: presnick@qti.qualcomm.com, rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org, iesg@ietf.org, json@ietf.org Subject: [Json] [Errata Rejected] RFC7159 (3984) X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 May 2014 18:45:52 -0000 The following errata report has been rejected for RFC7159, "The JavaScript Object Notation (JSON) Data Interchange Format". -------------------------------------- You may review the report below and at: http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=7159&eid=3984 -------------------------------------- Status: Rejected Type: Technical Reported by: Alain BENEDETTI Date Reported: 2014-05-09 Rejected by: Pete Resnick (IESG) Section: 7 Original Text ------------- unescaped = %x20-21 / %x23-5B / %x5D-10FFFF Corrected Text -------------- unescaped = %x20-21 / %x23-5B / %x5D-D7FF / %xE000-10FFFF Notes ----- Section 1 says: [START QUOTE] A string is a sequence of zero or more Unicode characters [UNICODE]. Note that this citation references the latest version of Unicode rather than a specific release. [END QUOTE] Section 8.2 emphasizes on the characters not allowed by the Unicode norm: [START QUOTE] However, the ABNF in this specification allows member names and string values to contain bit sequences that cannot encode Unicode characters; for example, "\uDEAD" (a single unpaired UTF-16 surrogate). [END QUOTE] The ABNF cannot at the same time allow non conformant Unicode codepoints (section 7) and states conformance to Unicode (section 1). Therefore, there is an incoherence that must be fixed between section 1 (and 8.2 that emphasizes it) and section 7. Hence the proposition of modification in section 7. The other less preferable solution to this fix incoherence in RFC7159 would have been to NOT require Unicode conformance. --VERIFIER NOTES-- The WG's consensus was to leave the full range present in the ABNF and add the interoperability guidance about values outside the Unicode accepted range. -------------------------------------- RFC7159 (draft-ietf-json-rfc4627bis-rfc7159bis) -------------------------------------- Title : The JavaScript Object Notation (JSON) Data Interchange Format Publication Date : March 2014 Author(s) : T. Bray, Ed. Category : PROPOSED STANDARD Source : JavaScript Object Notation Area : Applications Stream : IETF Verifying Party : IESG From nobody Fri May 16 11:52:30 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD6481A0053; Fri, 16 May 2014 11:52:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -104.853 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-104.853 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ecf9t8j1bBvi; Fri, 16 May 2014 11:52:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rfc-editor.org (rfc-editor.org [4.31.198.49]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A67FB1A0147; Fri, 16 May 2014 11:52:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by rfc-editor.org (Postfix, from userid 30) id 3D5EE180095; Fri, 16 May 2014 11:51:10 -0700 (PDT) To: vfaronov@gmail.com, tbray@textuality.com X-PHP-Originating-Script: 1005:errata_mail_lib.php From: RFC Errata System Message-Id: <20140516185110.3D5EE180095@rfc-editor.org> Date: Fri, 16 May 2014 11:51:10 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/ViBixgFqw0cKfNqHYjxdA7TTOaw Cc: presnick@qti.qualcomm.com, rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org, iesg@ietf.org, json@ietf.org Subject: [Json] [Errata Verified] RFC7159 (3915) X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 May 2014 18:52:24 -0000 The following errata report has been verified for RFC7159, "The JavaScript Object Notation (JSON) Data Interchange Format". -------------------------------------- You may review the report below and at: http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=7159&eid=3915 -------------------------------------- Status: Verified Type: Technical Reported by: Vasiliy Faronov Date Reported: 2014-03-07 Verified by: Pete Resnick (IESG) Section: 12 Original Text ------------- Since JSON's syntax is borrowed from JavaScript, it is possible to use that language's "eval()" function to parse JSON texts. Corrected Text -------------- Since JSON's syntax is borrowed from JavaScript, it is possible to use that language's "eval()" function to parse most (but not all) JSON texts. Notes ----- This wording may be construed as meaning that every compliant JSON text is parseable as JavaScript, which is not the case: . (Actually I would prefer this to be stated clearly elsewhere in the document, e.g. where it says "JSON's design goals were for it to be [...] a subset of JavaScript".) --VERIFIER NOTES-- As per the above citation, there are characters (in particular line terminators like U+2028 and U+2029) which are permissible in JSON but not permissible in JavaScript. The corrected text makes this clearer. -------------------------------------- RFC7159 (draft-ietf-json-rfc4627bis-rfc7159bis) -------------------------------------- Title : The JavaScript Object Notation (JSON) Data Interchange Format Publication Date : March 2014 Author(s) : T. Bray, Ed. Category : PROPOSED STANDARD Source : JavaScript Object Notation Area : Applications Stream : IETF Verifying Party : IESG From nobody Fri May 16 14:08:40 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C5FD1A0157 for ; Fri, 16 May 2014 14:08:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.131 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.131 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, MISSING_HEADERS=1.021, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bmaYb6AfsKuo for ; Fri, 16 May 2014 14:08:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-8.cisco.com (alln-iport-8.cisco.com [173.37.142.95]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4E6171A0151 for ; Fri, 16 May 2014 14:08:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=953; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1400274509; x=1401484109; h=message-id:date:from:mime-version:cc:subject:references: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=IoQdkfvfNwu0omMa8IrIVkb6fBuFe2CCDa0eQdTZpAI=; b=RV6HpbTHVm6r8PJJyyzn6ED1n+YExthum6CfzuQP7C8aKUof6mWW8YOf 9NME2snI1ysIjspqhDnqol60iODCoVraC1D267er15/RP6Mknl56eRr+/ YkKUNJHdLY25h4xyW7XZebK923inid9ZTSjN8VTsN4xIPzAQ/mjw7Ea2K 0=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AhgIAEZ9dlOtJV2U/2dsb2JhbABZgwZPWKlQBQGaKgElchZ0gh0JAQEEeAEQCyEWDwkDAgECAUUTAQUCAQGFcoJL0hoXhVWIRzMHgwSBPAEDiVo6j0STGYNWghE X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.97,1069,1389744000"; d="scan'208";a="44569371" Received: from rcdn-core-12.cisco.com ([173.37.93.148]) by alln-iport-8.cisco.com with ESMTP; 16 May 2014 21:08:28 +0000 Received: from xhc-rcd-x05.cisco.com (xhc-rcd-x05.cisco.com [173.37.183.79]) by rcdn-core-12.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s4GL8Sqj029709 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL) for ; Fri, 16 May 2014 21:08:28 GMT Received: from MAMILLE2-M-T03K.CISCO.COM (10.129.24.57) by xhc-rcd-x05.cisco.com (173.37.183.79) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.123.3; Fri, 16 May 2014 16:08:28 -0500 Message-ID: <53767E4B.2050005@cisco.com> Date: Fri, 16 May 2014 15:08:27 -0600 From: Matt Miller User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: "json@ietf.org" References: <20140429171613.GZ11962@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: [10.129.24.57] Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/w5DSkgb-gQt9oZDAyH468oXgyM4 Subject: Re: [Json] I-JSON Topic #3: Unicode X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 May 2014 21:08:39 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 It has been several days since the last discussion on this topic, and that from only two individuals (including the document editor). Does anyone else have more to say with regards to Unicode in I-JSON? - -- - - m&m Matt Miller < mamille2@cisco.com > Cisco Systems, Inc. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.22 (Darwin) Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQEcBAEBCgAGBQJTdn5LAAoJEDWi+S0W7cO1D88H/AyukPTdr0AsBeqWKwqnmNGk k0iFHv2rJqr+PvBSb0iFScsGskRjbvQylUXagIVIt7N1MHmJwzTa+Z7qgr0xxUwX GZxyZuXOf5mCNJHxjuLvp3gwxrRoxGM7to3uGgSsdH0B/7/qqF9qY+R2pPJRwA1k fw0sw8+wiakSjSxPNJdGvc7pEi7AuB8//M7wAXHorHg2cvqDz+Vv0klbkWO5t6FU ora17BFDwZzb5pUY2pT4SWzeT113ZT5xqT2nfsSgUGr3npj6N+hmnFx0aCRM9XHx WeOhPVxRPJ6pVVQz5eyWwlUQM6RZJumiD/fzkR4v9uTELEn9go8c/RZIR5li+EQ= =LoHZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From nobody Fri May 16 14:11:55 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DF231A0151 for ; Fri, 16 May 2014 14:11:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.152 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.152 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0i4vloVKlxh0 for ; Fri, 16 May 2014 14:11:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-2.cisco.com (alln-iport-2.cisco.com [173.37.142.89]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DEE521A0015 for ; Fri, 16 May 2014 14:11:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=983; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1400274704; x=1401484304; h=message-id:date:from:mime-version:to:subject:references: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=iab6pzNqOoM+xUmEmlbpOMgN+y78yq6/Dt6Fn+2QaIs=; b=H1vZUPDaZwUahV2P/qnNNv4899X9Gup1DXJK58hFKjBiLYWd7rLbHQTb Ycr4yLjSRbNvcr1Uu2DpOcecMp1MQ9KA4JTSnykAue9afWmH5niHWYCfX peUhJMXft9KLEzF4EXmbT/iwKz+3UZZ++YqsKkVStLuEE1KBMktCPN660 0=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ao8GAM99dlOtJA2M/2dsb2JhbABZgwZPWIJppmcFAZoqAYEXFnSCJgEBBCNVEQsaAgUWCwICCQMCAQIBRQYNBgIBAYg9rUqkUxeBKoQriEc6FoJfgUsBA4oUj0STGYNWghE X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.97,1069,1389744000"; d="scan'208";a="44560310" Received: from alln-core-7.cisco.com ([173.36.13.140]) by alln-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 16 May 2014 21:11:44 +0000 Received: from xhc-rcd-x05.cisco.com (xhc-rcd-x05.cisco.com [173.37.183.79]) by alln-core-7.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s4GLBiOx001933 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL) for ; Fri, 16 May 2014 21:11:44 GMT Received: from MAMILLE2-M-T03K.CISCO.COM (10.129.24.57) by xhc-rcd-x05.cisco.com (173.37.183.79) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.123.3; Fri, 16 May 2014 16:11:43 -0500 Message-ID: <53767F0F.8090509@cisco.com> Date: Fri, 16 May 2014 15:11:43 -0600 From: Matt Miller User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: References: <535EB33F.7090006@cisco.com> <3D092838-6949-44C2-9573-3C7B49A5E337@vpnc.org> <5360928D.4000601@drees.name> In-Reply-To: <5360928D.4000601@drees.name> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: [10.129.24.57] Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/R1wFpsf4DeBAZKbCRRc0toLPz5I Subject: Re: [Json] Topic #4: Software Behavior X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 16 May 2014 21:11:53 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 It has been several days since the last discussion on this topic. As it currently stands, it appears that there is no consensus to change the existing text. Does anyone have more to say with regards to software behavior in I-JSON? - -- - - m&m Matt Miller < mamille2@cisco.com > Cisco Systems, Inc. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.22 (Darwin) Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQEcBAEBCgAGBQJTdn8PAAoJEDWi+S0W7cO1KxEH/1DJMKT12k7pzsKLj7lOP5HN K0Laq3WCVUpKmX2xGe8aGPQwvhx9Skb19aeakHt+g18wO5LJE3jXPKyBF/I3VFTV +ZoydUOOsvGhk2sZKPwl/SCdq0s9R51JRYCQbSKutRhUY42W8uVeAFgrNV9+Whb8 TmGfSp1o979A+YTOhFe5MnILUQFjXSbYbh01fWmy/PX+OAFWOhKf0jsx+t6cNRe7 ERrfYzylwmuFKvytfKEjq7cdJyKrYAUqMU7qHRzi3ut6DAG/otLMvb+DrE5sb/SW fAO7DFvNyn8LLOEeW+G9wWirawYk3FK6hKACsb/GvySoM/AMBmb0PKb1/T7jBto= =GpzG -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From nobody Sun May 18 01:57:04 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A00B1A019A for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 01:57:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.55 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DeWx2DQteqWx for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 01:57:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.web.de (mout.web.de [212.227.15.4]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA256 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0B1A51A022A for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 01:56:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from newyork.local.box ([80.187.96.163]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb103) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MSrgv-1WMoiS2VWv-00Rt6G for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 10:56:57 +0200 Message-ID: <537875D8.1080807@drees.name> Date: Sun, 18 May 2014 10:56:56 +0200 From: Stefan Drees User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.8; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: json@ietf.org References: <20140509173159.28855.94523.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:F6ClUL6hxQehBIa3rMBGw6Ilb2XlAWhwUeElhCtj8ksP3G6DNbS BGJWwizrL9UjIiCMy5QXsUjMgVDnO93lQsmIuj+f1+pvrSxXLWwwWCbCza2toLNLYefsTqu B1PB6GjuA4hVEeFe2zUe/5R1JWxbDEg6ruBhpumhEUYywGOjJG4AJhnKqLOX6Bf+JnJFCbj DEYwa+IjdIpDqzqp7R6Rw== Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/Bz6LdKlB0DfCJ0bxuxIY1diVC0E Subject: Re: [Json] Seeking more input on draft-ietf-json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: stefan@drees.name List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 May 2014 08:57:02 -0000 On 2014-05-14 20:32 +01:00, Paul Hoffman wrote: > Greetings again. Wearing my chair hat, I encourage people in the > group(especially you quiet types) to review this WG draft and let the WG know > what you think. The idea of JSON text sequences has many applications, > and folks have invented things like this in the past for their own > internal purposes. We would like to make sure that this document covers > as many use cases as possible. > > --Paul Hoffman I like to understand grammars also bottom up - which might qualify as a lexer's perspective - overlapping rules like the one for ws1 and ws2 in the suggested grammar do not really make things clearer for me. Additionally the reader will benefit from the expressed clear assumption, how these ws(''|1|2) relate to each other. So, I suggest to change (as found in draft-02): # --- 8< ---- 2. JSON Text Sequence Format The ABNF [RFC5234] for the JSON text sequence format is as follows: JSON-sequence = *ws1 *(JSON-text *ws2 %x0A *ws1) ws1 = %x20 / %x09 / %x0A / %x0D ws2 = %x20 / %x09 / %x0D JSON-text = Figure 1: JSON text sequence ABNF # --- 8< ---- into either: # --- 8< ---- 2. JSON Text Sequence Format The ABNF [RFC5234] for the JSON text sequence format is as follows: JSON-sequence = *(ws-no-nl / nl) *(JSON-text *ws-no-nl nl *(ws-no-nl / nl)) nl = %x0A ws-no-nl = ( %x20 / %x09 / %x0D ) JSON-text = Figure 1: JSON text sequence ABNF When combining the grammars, the rule for ws in the JSON-text is therefore equivalent to *( ws-without-newline / newline ) # --- 8< ---- or less cryptic but wrapped some more: # --- 8< ---- 2. JSON Text Sequence Format The ABNF [RFC5234] for the JSON text sequence format is as follows: JSON-sequence = *( ws-without-newline / newline ) *( JSON-text *ws-without-newline newline *( ws-without-newline / newline ) ) newline = %x0A ws-without-newline = ( %x20 / %x09 / %x0D ) JSON-text = Figure 1: JSON text sequence ABNF When combining the grammars, the production for ws in the JSON-text is therefore equivalent to *( ws-without-newline / newline ) # --- 8< ---- ... but I am *not* passionate about this. It is just that the mix of optional sets, where one is a proper subset of the other to me smells very implicit, where being explicit (choosing a direct decomopsition like "X/x and x" to me reads well and is not that much longer. What do the others think? PS: If the parentheses in the simple rules do not match our current styleguide, just remove them, it is the decomposition I am interested in. All the best, Stefan > On May 9, 2014, at 10:31 AM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: > >> >> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. >> This draft is a work item of the JavaScript Object Notation Working Group of the IETF. >> >> Title : JavaScript Object Notation (JSON) Text Sequences >> Author : Nicolas Williams >> Filename : draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-02.txt >> Pages : 10 >> Date : 2014-05-09 >> >> Abstract: >> This document describes the JSON text sequence format and associated >> media type. >> >> >> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-json-text-sequence/ >> >> There's also a htmlized version available at: >> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-02 >> >> A diff from the previous version is available at: >> http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-02 > > > _______________________________________________ > json mailing list > json@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json > From nobody Sun May 18 02:48:16 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C80391A02C0 for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 02:48:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.55 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id StO1r82soY_w for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 02:48:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.web.de (mout.web.de [212.227.17.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA256 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 17C461A02BC for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 02:48:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from newyork.local.box ([80.187.96.163]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb102) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MVu1U-1WF5oA0zhQ-00X4Pv for ; Sun, 18 May 2014 11:48:10 +0200 Message-ID: <537881D9.3080001@drees.name> Date: Sun, 18 May 2014 11:48:09 +0200 From: Stefan Drees User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.8; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: json@ietf.org References: <20140509173159.28855.94523.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <537875D8.1080807@drees.name> In-Reply-To: <537875D8.1080807@drees.name> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:qgyyGVnNTLKzW6VVq0EupKkSykNkhNC6SpfB+J+uO/cDzgz9tPA fFNgCzZK1PedmyGXiYyChkmkmT9WWNY++yYNPdNlS3DXNjXlv/xoMPes2c34BrqoXbxl8s6 OYcmksftdMB+a/HiOlZQAz9VzyAnqfQLvCwS1axgm8Fa9XqCRGFYkqs+2ATBDhdVBn2w01V BBBB4iQUB3tBvNLqI+1vA== Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/eGNAKnKs3CeiAGyMMRcVNt6ZLJ4 Subject: Re: [Json] Seeking more input on draft-ietf-json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: stefan@drees.name List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 May 2014 09:48:15 -0000 On 2014-05-18 10:56 +01:00, Stefan Drees sent during streaming read session of draft-02: > On 2014-05-14 20:32 +01:00, Paul Hoffman wrote: >> Greetings again. Wearing my chair hat, I encourage people in the >> group(especially you quiet types) to review this WG draft and let the >> WG know >> what you think. The idea of JSON text sequences has many applications, >> and folks have invented things like this in the past for their own >> internal purposes. We would like to make sure that this document covers >> as many use cases as possible. >> >> --Paul Hoffman > > I like to understand grammars also bottom up - which might qualify as a > lexer's perspective - overlapping rules like the one for ws1 and ws2 in > the suggested grammar do not really make things clearer for me. > Additionally the reader will benefit from the expressed clear > assumption, how these ws(''|1|2) relate to each other. > > So, I suggest to change (as found in draft-02): > > # --- 8< ---- > 2. JSON Text Sequence Format > > The ABNF [RFC5234] for the JSON text sequence format is as follows: > > JSON-sequence = *ws1 *(JSON-text *ws2 %x0A *ws1) > ws1 = %x20 / %x09 / %x0A / %x0D > ws2 = %x20 / %x09 / %x0D > JSON-text = > > Figure 1: JSON text sequence ABNF > > # --- 8< ---- > > into either: > > # --- 8< ---- > 2. JSON Text Sequence Format > > The ABNF [RFC5234] for the JSON text sequence format is as follows: > > JSON-sequence = *(ws-no-nl > / nl) *(JSON-text *ws-no-nl nl *(ws-no-nl / nl)) > nl = %x0A > ws-no-nl = ( %x20 / %x09 / %x0D ) > JSON-text = > > Figure 1: JSON text sequence ABNF > > When combining the grammars, the rule for ws in the JSON-text is > therefore equivalent to *( ws-without-newline / newline ) > > # --- 8< ---- > > or less cryptic but wrapped some more: > > # --- 8< ---- > 2. JSON Text Sequence Format > > The ABNF [RFC5234] for the JSON text sequence format is as follows: > > JSON-sequence = *( > ws-without-newline / > newline ) *( JSON-text *ws-without-newline newline *( > ws-without-newline / newline ) ) > newline = %x0A > ws-without-newline = ( %x20 / %x09 / %x0D ) > JSON-text = > > Figure 1: JSON text sequence ABNF > > When combining the grammars, the production for ws in the JSON-text > is therefore equivalent to *( ws-without-newline / newline ) > > # --- 8< ---- *preferred* (cf. below) > > ... but I am *not* passionate about this. Given the short length, focused style of the document, I think these changes do form a good contribution towards clarity and readability. > > It is just that the mix of optional sets, where one is a proper subset > of the other to me smells very implicit, where being explicit (choosing > a direct decomopsition like "X/x and x" to me reads well and is not that > much longer. > > What do the others think? > > PS: If the parentheses in the simple rules do not match our current > styleguide, just remove them, it is the decomposition I am interested in. and of course adapt accordingly figure 2 located in section "3. Use for Logfiles, or How to Resynchronize Following Truncated entries" from the current: # --- 8< ---- boundary = endchar *ws2 %0xA *ws1 startchar endchar = ( "}" / "]" / %x22 / "e" / "l" / DIGIT ) startchar = ( "{" / "[" / %x22 / "t" / "f" / "n" / "-" / DIGIT ) # --- 8< ---- to the (short version): # --- 8< ---- boundary = endchar *ws-no-nl nl *(ws-no-nl / nl) startchar endchar = ( "}" / "]" / %x22 / "e" / "l" / DIGIT ) startchar = ( "{" / "[" / %x22 / "t" / "f" / "n" / "-" / DIGIT ) # --- 8< ---- or *preferred* (more explicit version): # --- 8< ---- boundary = endchar *ws-without-newline newline *( ws-without-newline / newline) startchar endchar = ( "}" / "]" / %x22 / "e" / "l" / DIGIT ) startchar = ( "{" / "[" / %x22 / "t" / "f" / "n" / "-" / DIGIT ) # --- 8< ---- Note: Aliasing %0xA with a readable term lke newline to me shines as a service to the reader, emphasizing the special role this token has in the recommendation which is so nicely stated in: # --- 8< ---- Requirements: o JSON text sequence encoders MUST emit a newline after any JSON text. # --- 8< ---- So the longer versions presented above are the ones, I would prefer. (those with "newline" instead of "nl"). Sorry for streaming feedback mode, Stefan. > All the best, > Stefan > >> On May 9, 2014, at 10:31 AM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: >> >>> >>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts >>> directories. >>> This draft is a work item of the JavaScript Object Notation Working >>> Group of the IETF. >>> >>> Title : JavaScript Object Notation (JSON) Text >>> Sequences >>> Author : Nicolas Williams >>> Filename : draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-02.txt >>> Pages : 10 >>> Date : 2014-05-09 >>> >>> Abstract: >>> This document describes the JSON text sequence format and associated >>> media type. >>> >>> >>> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: >>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-json-text-sequence/ >>> >>> There's also a htmlized version available at: >>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-02 >>> >>> A diff from the previous version is available at: >>> http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-02 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> json mailing list >> json@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json >> > > _______________________________________________ > json mailing list > json@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json From nobody Mon May 19 12:30:46 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D96A71A03BD for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 12:30:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -13.531 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-13.531 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, J_CHICKENPOX_42=0.6, MISSING_HEADERS=1.021, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id h_8TrZj1Guvr for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 12:30:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-5.cisco.com (alln-iport-5.cisco.com [173.37.142.92]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DEEAB1A03DC for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 12:30:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1444; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1400527841; x=1401737441; h=message-id:date:from:mime-version:cc:subject:references: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=y2Gl6Z6X476b/vQUh2kj3WU0dO81bCUuRi/CdHy15NQ=; b=L+eNJb4L59rM2onFdkvXvW/h+LZ+6cZgUXTdcKOX2FOiwKfH8ilj4r0O MGnLLBfKiLBi9Z3E2tSfZepxSagYXNBtqASJcSVWG+EbRILicUkRjkf4x T3vZz6ml3vnRtIfoqRl5qZpAsiBydiT1eR0L6GCNg9S9G9LOdz9XvIE5n I=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AsoKAJ5aelOtJA2F/2dsb2JhbABZgwZRWKlSAQEBAQEBBQGaKwEldBZ0gh0IAQEBBHgBEAsYCRYPCQMCAQIBRRMBBQIBAYVygkvSSBeFVYhIMweDBIE8AQOJWzqPRZMag1aCEQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.98,868,1392163200"; d="scan'208";a="45223371" Received: from alln-core-11.cisco.com ([173.36.13.133]) by alln-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 19 May 2014 19:30:41 +0000 Received: from xhc-rcd-x05.cisco.com (xhc-rcd-x05.cisco.com [173.37.183.79]) by alln-core-11.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s4JJUftE018256 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL) for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 19:30:41 GMT Received: from MAMILLE2-M-T03K.CISCO.COM (10.129.24.57) by xhc-rcd-x05.cisco.com (173.37.183.79) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.123.3; Mon, 19 May 2014 14:30:40 -0500 Message-ID: <537A5BE0.3020406@cisco.com> Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 13:30:40 -0600 From: Matt Miller User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: IETF JSON WG References: <535EB3BF.8080606@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: [10.129.24.57] Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/PqWhMkA0Am-p2qvSY0kcd5tJESg Subject: Re: [Json] I-JSON Topic #5: Numbers X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 19:30:45 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 On 5/1/14, 12:19 PM, Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr) wrote: > Subnormals are allowed in JSON, I believe. They probably don't > interop quite as expected if you're using C and have -O1 or higher > turned on (for example). > > On 4/28/14, 3:11 PM, "Tim Bray" wrote: > >> Well, they?re disallowed in JSON let alone i-json so I?d have >> hoped we can ignore them. >> >> On Mon, Apr 28, 2014 at 1:52 PM, Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr) >> wrote: >> >> Will we need to talk about subnormals, -0, NaN, Infinity, and the >> like? > Hello Joe, could you provide more detail of what the concern here is? I suspect you have been too terse so far. - -- - - m&m Matt Miller < mamille2@cisco.com > Cisco Systems, Inc. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.22 (Darwin) Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQEcBAEBCgAGBQJTelvgAAoJEDWi+S0W7cO1o38H/0HTEaeT7r5wW/UrADj+ohRo Bev8XHnVwXpCy+2VACVaZ7pQBanYbfQcH1BJNDaOTlHVM+/qhoEP2YNht9i0Fism NNTAUuIf5zt/II/zWnTN1hZDY74RgoIl50GOmcyrbYF+fN1Lf4Cg6J7mLi0ZL5Kz /s5WjG7igJrHLOzLUlUnMpNLX5WktGNqLaTsmAYYoMvRQnMDuuJvOJZpyAo52KU1 ReMqp6Sb9oE9ypMlHUrMdbw/6QltwzC8vTl91KvO0Nat8wu2EAHvWxN71AhXcnqN TBznNQa2vyfVmlXAOkOxYCr2EOr750BQ/+iSTv/pZTljmHiSRkU6v245+YgNUkY= =/KNl -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From nobody Mon May 19 15:01:21 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F7121A03DA for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 15:01:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.152 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.152 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2yWw_puTjlg1 for ; 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d="scan'208";a="326128005" Received: from rcdn-core-6.cisco.com ([173.37.93.157]) by rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 19 May 2014 22:00:59 +0000 Received: from xhc-aln-x06.cisco.com (xhc-aln-x06.cisco.com [173.36.12.80]) by rcdn-core-6.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s4JM0x21025641 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL) for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 22:00:59 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com ([169.254.15.76]) by xhc-aln-x06.cisco.com ([173.36.12.80]) with mapi id 14.03.0123.003; Mon, 19 May 2014 17:00:59 -0500 From: "Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)" To: "Matt Miller (mamille2)" Thread-Topic: [Json] I-JSON Topic #5: Numbers Thread-Index: AQHPYxzPc1qOL3zAFk6QxZ1T0YrJO5snzN0A//+jtwCAAGnvgIAEImEAgBzCVgD//8VpAA== Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 22:00:59 +0000 Message-ID: References: <535EB3BF.8080606@cisco.com> <537A5BE0.3020406@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <537A5BE0.3020406@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.4.1.140326 x-originating-ip: [10.129.24.156] Content-Type: text/plain; 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Mon, 19 May 2014 15:18:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.851 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.851 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 52snoqfS5T23 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 15:18:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0C7541A03B6 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 15:18:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1WmVsl-0005OS-TD; Mon, 19 May 2014 18:18:07 -0400 Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 18:18:07 -0400 From: John Cowan To: "Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)" Message-ID: <20140519221807.GR9283@mercury.ccil.org> References: <535EB3BF.8080606@cisco.com> <537A5BE0.3020406@cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Sender: John Cowan Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/J6bfVfNCNw3Lx51iUjsbwTKP3oQ Cc: IETF JSON WG , "Matt Miller \(mamille2\)" Subject: Re: [Json] I-JSON Topic #5: Numbers X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 22:18:13 -0000 Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr) scripsit: > As such, there will be a loss of interoperability for very small numbers > (either positive or negative), and I think we should mention what the > smallest safely-interoperable numbers are. 10^-308 and -10^-308 seem like > reasonable limits in decimal-land. This should have gone into the JSON (as opposed to I-JSON) spec as an i14y warning. Since it didn't, let's mention it here. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. If a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friends or of thine own were: any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee. --John Donne From nobody Mon May 19 15:54:57 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A9981A0436 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 15:54:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VPyXFP3RVijy for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 15:54:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 45B2F1A03E0 for ; Mon, 19 May 2014 15:54:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s4JMsiqZ016612; Tue, 20 May 2014 00:54:44 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.217.145] (p54893C54.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.137.60.84]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DF33413EB; Tue, 20 May 2014 00:54:43 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.2\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 20 May 2014 00:54:42 +0200 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 422232882.54739-0fb47b88cc1b5f394623eb1e70ccd2a2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <488AE66E-725D-40B3-9FDA-ADA1018BCF65@tzi.org> References: <535EB3BF.8080606@cisco.com> <537A5BE0.3020406@cisco.com> To: "Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.2) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/HjNd-L0PJ_yFQrfBwhsVJPoi0cE Cc: IETF JSON WG , "Matt Miller \(mamille2\)" Subject: Re: [Json] I-JSON Topic #5: Numbers X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 May 2014 22:54:57 -0000 On 20 May 2014, at 00:00, Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr) = wrote: > 4e-324 That is a bad number for interop not because it is out of range, but = because it is not something you can get from converting a binary64 into = decimal, so it is somewhat arbitrary what happens on the way back. I would be surprised if there are actual interop problems with 5e-324. Consequently, I don=92t quite buy a range limit at 1e-308 yet. (It=92s a precision limit, in any case.) Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten From nobody Tue May 20 10:46:51 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98BF31A04D2 for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 10:46:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.152 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.152 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bOOURu1IEMha for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 10:46:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-6.cisco.com (alln-iport-6.cisco.com [173.37.142.93]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4B2091A027D for ; 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Tue, 20 May 2014 15:18:38 -0500 Message-ID: <537BB89E.2040305@cisco.com> Date: Tue, 20 May 2014 14:18:38 -0600 From: Matt Miller User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: IETF JSON WG References: <535EB119.4000908@cisco.com> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E1154581E82F@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: [10.129.24.57] Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/AKAH4IPDvOqPaiMBWI8lg_hyCIw Subject: Re: [Json] I-JSON Tpic #2: Top-Level X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 May 2014 20:18:43 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 It has been several days since the last discussion on this topic. As it currently stands, it appears there is no consensus to restrict the top-level to only object (or object / array). Does anyone have more to say with regards to top-level restrictions in I-JSON? - -- - - m&m Matt Miller < mamille2@cisco.com > Cisco Systems, Inc. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.22 (Darwin) Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQEcBAEBCgAGBQJTe7ieAAoJEDWi+S0W7cO1/TAH/0l9Um416SDS1RNYyrVyVlip Bc/u5zGGaxjASEw1BVt0cckKMcp6syEMRFHmZ8XaUFMFJFFUMn8G6Ob4Lq7Za1K+ untUCjYkmavzR8frGGJPfmH9EdlUov8Xjm3ByZ+TRswb20cIgrRqw+baI8TbTNR1 eNZKJ2Y4vW0nFkPvIWdvYwf4Sht8DakM7bYjC4iImrU0t58ESwbFw1uLKGVgrVfU y62Jxmp1Yz6WWPIf1Q8MQupDXZNosBS/hLDUoF4FjOUXaNR3CCr8wpQBMm4uBlmZ tE6Kwddutq5Kwvvwq7YjpJGUS4uhYNcIVDWwkoBz7ZDOGtctva5UjLjIZ8OnQWg= =3Bkb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From nobody Tue May 20 13:27:46 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9DA91A0778 for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 13:27:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nPVvsW9ATmtm for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 13:27:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ve0-f170.google.com (mail-ve0-f170.google.com [209.85.128.170]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2B4171A0090 for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 13:27:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ve0-f170.google.com with SMTP id db11so1316550veb.15 for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 13:27:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=dFDwOU8TnElJLvcnJsAAic5XCwU6tupRUBypkYf5bCU=; b=Hf93scSpQ3KlKgMiOYZyaPW2WhN0b9jeX1jyV7ApiSS3Z6g8NXo7Xo+Ntmb3KV6wjX LHnf8lGMlTi1yfv3+ry68N3uMGBxUOGsWYw7Iao3oEHfR9IylIF3vAux+MZ6Bk5vBiM1 8XikKpWl3JYrLHDG3otHy8UigkOjEDSyEnvCDBzybw3eF72xs8Sa36QhccfZUCZQ6M6Z ZpMy4CaCFPY0z3qMlN6xvHV67bu6LLbLd1BXMe2O90dzMAcmySF0d+YgwDYfihH3lbTB Yal8bSefBUSKwGDuaumlYsxRxdn1eMNiP56fPMM1EOrJzmHpRZuuGPX8gy7kDpOeBfNn xBfA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkFMqVeTktXuzOIrUgB4w9F36J6waCkwEkuECKXGpIG8500mejhVV++A2Vmj+MK3F1hXu3B X-Received: by 10.220.105.4 with SMTP id r4mr5794139vco.27.1400617662999; Tue, 20 May 2014 13:27:42 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.98.73 with HTTP; Tue, 20 May 2014 13:27:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [107.19.76.28] In-Reply-To: <537BB89E.2040305@cisco.com> References: <535EB119.4000908@cisco.com> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E1154581E82F@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> <537BB89E.2040305@cisco.com> From: Tim Bray Date: Tue, 20 May 2014 13:27:22 -0700 Message-ID: To: Matt Miller Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e0122f3324505a604f9dab6d7 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/k-sJ8E0iJ47Ym4wYLUGAQ6GeuZI Cc: IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] I-JSON Tpic #2: Top-Level X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 May 2014 20:27:46 -0000 --089e0122f3324505a604f9dab6d7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For what it=E2=80=99s worth, this particular consensus excludes me. 1. The goal for I-JSOn is to maximize interoperability, and there is software out there coded to 4627 which will fail when presented with 42 or true; so interoperability suffers when you do that. 2. For the type of work the IETF is engaged in, Must-Ignore is almost always a win in protocol designs, and thus we would do well to encourage the use of JSON that makes this straightforward. On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 1:18 PM, Matt Miller wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA512 > > It has been several days since the last discussion on this topic. As > it currently stands, it appears there is no consensus to restrict the > top-level to only object (or object / array). > > Does anyone have more to say with regards to top-level restrictions in > I-JSON? > > > - -- > - - m&m > > Matt Miller < mamille2@cisco.com > > Cisco Systems, Inc. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.22 (Darwin) > Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org > Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ > > iQEcBAEBCgAGBQJTe7ieAAoJEDWi+S0W7cO1/TAH/0l9Um416SDS1RNYyrVyVlip > Bc/u5zGGaxjASEw1BVt0cckKMcp6syEMRFHmZ8XaUFMFJFFUMn8G6Ob4Lq7Za1K+ > untUCjYkmavzR8frGGJPfmH9EdlUov8Xjm3ByZ+TRswb20cIgrRqw+baI8TbTNR1 > eNZKJ2Y4vW0nFkPvIWdvYwf4Sht8DakM7bYjC4iImrU0t58ESwbFw1uLKGVgrVfU > y62Jxmp1Yz6WWPIf1Q8MQupDXZNosBS/hLDUoF4FjOUXaNR3CCr8wpQBMm4uBlmZ > tE6Kwddutq5Kwvvwq7YjpJGUS4uhYNcIVDWwkoBz7ZDOGtctva5UjLjIZ8OnQWg=3D > =3D3Bkb > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > _______________________________________________ > json mailing list > json@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json > --=20 - Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a private message, see https://keybase.io/timbray) --089e0122f3324505a604f9dab6d7 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
For= what it=E2=80=99s worth, this particular consensus excludes me. =C2=A0

1. The goal for I-JSOn is to maximize interoperability, and there is softwa= re out there coded to 4627 which will fail when presented with 42 or true; = so interoperability suffers when you do that.=C2=A0
2. For the type of work the IETF is engaged in, Must-Ignore is almost alway= s a win in protocol designs, and thus we would do well to encourage the use= of JSON that makes this straightforward.


On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 1:18 PM, Matt Mi= ller <mamille2@cisco.com> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

It has been several days since the last discussion on this topic. =C2= =A0As
it currently stands, it appears there is no consensus to restrict the
top-level to only object (or object / array).

Does anyone have more to say with regards to top-level restrictions in
I-JSON?


- --
- - m&m

Matt Miller < mamille2@cisco.com >
Cisco Systems, Inc.
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_______________________________________________
json mailing list
json@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json



--
=
- Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a privat= e message, see htt= ps://keybase.io/timbray)
--089e0122f3324505a604f9dab6d7-- From nobody Tue May 20 13:50:59 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AD5F1A07A4 for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 13:50:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.347 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.347 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2UctwI_wDEMQ for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 13:50:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hoffman.proper.com (IPv6.Hoffman.Proper.COM [IPv6:2605:8e00:100:41::81]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 71C551A07AC for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 13:50:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.20.30.90] (50-1-51-90.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com [50.1.51.90]) (authenticated bits=0) by hoffman.proper.com (8.14.8/8.14.7) with ESMTP id s4KKosqY058979 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 13:50:56 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: hoffman.proper.com: Host 50-1-51-90.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com [50.1.51.90] claimed to be [10.20.30.90] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.2\)) From: Paul Hoffman In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 20 May 2014 13:50:53 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <535EB119.4000908@cisco.com> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E1154581E82F@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> <537BB89E.2040305@cisco.com> To: IETF JSON WG X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.2) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/Xs3dQkySqbkEu827T-H2tAIbZ2Y Subject: Re: [Json] I-JSON Tpic #2: Top-Level X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 20 May 2014 20:50:58 -0000 On May 20, 2014, at 1:27 PM, Tim Bray wrote: > For what it=92s worth, this particular consensus excludes me. =20 >=20 > 1. The goal for I-JSOn is to maximize interoperability, and there is = software out there coded to 4627 which will fail when presented with 42 = or true; so interoperability suffers when you do that.=20 > 2. For the type of work the IETF is engaged in, Must-Ignore is almost = always a win in protocol designs, and thus we would do well to encourage = the use of JSON that makes this straightforward. The goal of this document is to maximize interoperability. RFC 4627 and = other specs had the rule that JSON texts had to be objects or arrays. = Restricting JSON texts *in this profile* maximizes interoperability = better than RFC 7159 did. This profile is not meant to be correcting RFC 7159; it is meant to be = giving a profile that maximizes interoperability. --Paul Hoffman= From nobody Tue May 20 18:17:18 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C732A1A03F6 for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 18:17:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.356 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.356 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IyLIk8qpgdmt for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 18:17:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a109.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B723A1A03F5 for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 18:17:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a109.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a109.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04F522007DA13 for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 18:17:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:cc:content-type; s=cryptonector.com; bh=O0que/xNNuHUl3iTxDW1 b7E6JWM=; b=Z//0pmYIX8QlOCHuwrntDUI1MXSZznfMhHSbaeyWl8AGjEG2J+tj jNuzcvqDwk+6L3y4rqhy2lrAb/7FODOSayytjsRRfPEn2HL9Y8zbd614deBytliu yYstCFIEt1kPu4Op7KVgZHTn+7OZD+MufbOila5s0Oaf8t3QDAWc+yk= Received: from mail-wg0-f43.google.com (mail-wg0-f43.google.com [74.125.82.43]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a109.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id AD0FE2007DA09 for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 18:17:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wg0-f43.google.com with SMTP id l18so1283478wgh.2 for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 18:17:12 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.212.77 with SMTP id ni13mr7248250wic.5.1400635032421; Tue, 20 May 2014 18:17:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.29.200 with HTTP; Tue, 20 May 2014 18:17:12 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <537875D8.1080807@drees.name> References: <20140509173159.28855.94523.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <537875D8.1080807@drees.name> Date: Tue, 20 May 2014 20:17:12 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: "stefan@drees.name" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/cfcA1h6dj9vVHuyjLG0CaGW8HDE Cc: "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] Seeking more input on draft-ietf-json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 01:17:16 -0000 On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 3:56 AM, Stefan Drees wrote: > I like to understand grammars also bottom up - which might qualify as a > lexer's perspective - overlapping rules like the one for ws1 and ws2 in the > suggested grammar do not really make things clearer for me. Additionally the > reader will benefit from the expressed clear assumption, how these > ws(''|1|2) relate to each other. I'm open to rewriting it but... there are many ways to do it and I don't really want to bikeshed the grammar -- it's enough to make sure it's correct. > So, I suggest to change (as found in draft-02): > [...] My counter: JSON-sequence = *ws-nl *(JSON-text *ws-no-nl %x0A *ws-nl) ws-no-nl = %x20 / %x09 / %x0D ws-nl = ws-no-nl / %x0A JSON-text = or, since I agree with you about giving %xXX names: JSON-sequence = *ws-LF *(JSON-text *ws-no-LF %x0A *ws-LF) ascii-SP = %x20 ascii-HT = %x09 ascii-CR = %x0D ascii-LF = %x0A ws-no-LF = ascii-SP / ascii-HT / ascii-CR ws-LF = ws-no-LF / ascii-LF ; same as ws in RFC7159 JSON-text = Or we could use pre-defined rules from RFC5234: ; SP HTAB CR LF are defined in RFC5234 JSON-sequence = *ws-LF *(JSON-text *ws-no-LF %x0A *ws-LF) ws-no-LF = SP HTAB CR ws-LF = ws-no-LF / LF ; same as ws in RFC7159 JSON-text = But maybe we should use ws from RFC7159, or maybe we shouldn't given single characters names but instead name them in comments like RFC7159 does: JSON-sequence = *ws-LF *(JSON-text *ws-no-LF %x0A *ws-LF) ws-no-nl = SP HTAB CR ws-LF = ws ; ws is defined in RFC7159 JSON-text = There's a lot of variations. I see you refer to a styleguide -- is there one? > What do the others think? It's just a grammar :) Nico -- From nobody Tue May 20 18:28:38 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F058C1A03FB for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 18:28:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.044 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.044 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GDS9wsUB9pjS for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 18:28:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a28.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57DED1A03F6 for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 18:28:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a28.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a28.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD1401B405F for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 18:28:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:cc:content-type; s=cryptonector.com; bh=7U9dRy5tDL8/5bj4uBhe 3PXsBpo=; b=E+CQP5cHt/WWFxsCc/vUosGbT0FgDxkSdzW7QTiuU5FmeveEObR4 f3t7mZDMN6Nj3BNiNEgU/lnhiZOtnw2zowYaZxLZkj8Bd+uElrn6evccv2fyIswD o9uHFeb3k6/ybKl+mzSjqlkOw7On2etAFIiqddmBvNB6tqusYCvwKmI= Received: from mail-wi0-f179.google.com (mail-wi0-f179.google.com [209.85.212.179]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a28.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 80C0A1B4056 for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 18:28:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wi0-f179.google.com with SMTP id bs8so1904089wib.12 for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 18:28:18 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.185.244 with SMTP id ff20mr7351333wic.42.1400635698486; Tue, 20 May 2014 18:28:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.29.200 with HTTP; Tue, 20 May 2014 18:28:18 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20140509173159.28855.94523.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <537875D8.1080807@drees.name> Date: Tue, 20 May 2014 20:28:18 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: "stefan@drees.name" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/-0rkE0dKQBQc2nseDg7edKzldUo Cc: "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] Seeking more input on draft-ietf-json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 01:28:23 -0000 On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 8:17 PM, Nico Williams wrote: > ws-no-LF = SP HTAB CR Missing alternators... Anyways, my final offer: JSON-sequence = *ws-lf *(JSON-text *ws-no-lf LF *ws-no-lf) ws-no-lf = SP / HTAB / CR ws = JSON-text = and boundary = endchar *ws-no-lf LF *ws-lf startchar endchar = ( "}" / "]" / DQUOTE / "e" / "l" / DIGIT ) startchar = ( "{" / "[" / DQUOTE / "t" / "f" / "n" / "-" / DIGIT ) I was already using DIGIT from RFC5234, so using DQUOTE, SP, HTAB, CR, and LF seems right, including the upper case (though it doesn't matter). I'm surprised RFC7159 doesn't use them (it uses DIGIT, oddly enough, but not the others). Nico -- From nobody Tue May 20 18:36:24 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF06D1A03FB for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 18:36:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.202 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.202 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_AU=0.377, HOST_EQ_AU=0.327, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RELAY_IS_203=0.994] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jmY-O-1atAMp for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 18:36:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ipxcvo.tcif.telstra.com.au (ipxcvo.tcif.telstra.com.au [203.35.135.208]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D11B1A03F6 for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 18:36:18 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.98,877,1392123600"; d="scan'208";a="13931054" Received: from unknown (HELO ipcavi.tcif.telstra.com.au) ([10.97.217.200]) by ipocvi.tcif.telstra.com.au with ESMTP; 21 May 2014 11:24:57 +1000 X-IronPort-AV: E=McAfee;i="5600,1067,7444"; a="280451839" Received: from wsmsg3707.srv.dir.telstra.com ([172.49.40.81]) by ipcavi.tcif.telstra.com.au with ESMTP; 21 May 2014 11:36:17 +1000 Received: from WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com ([172.49.40.159]) by wsmsg3707.srv.dir.telstra.com ([172.49.40.81]) with mapi; Wed, 21 May 2014 11:36:17 +1000 From: "Manger, James" To: "Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)" , Carsten Bormann Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 11:36:15 +1000 Thread-Topic: [Json] I-JSON Topic #5: Numbers Thread-Index: AQHPYxzPc1qOL3zAFk6QxZ1T0YrJO5snzN0A//+jtwCAAGnvgIAEImEAgBzCVgD//8VpAIAAc5kAgADXt4CAAHQ7oA== Message-ID: <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E115461FFE59@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> References: <535EB3BF.8080606@cisco.com> <537A5BE0.3020406@cisco.com> <488AE66E-725D-40B3-9FDA-ADA1018BCF65@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US, en-AU Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US, en-AU Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/DO8qrorqRs43Jz45MfuTqs6eq6c Cc: "Matt Miller \(mamille2\)" , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] I-JSON Topic #5: Numbers X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 01:36:21 -0000 Pj4+IDRlLTMyNA0KDQo+PlRoYXQgaXMgYSBiYWQgbnVtYmVyIGZvciBpbnRlcm9wIG5vdCBiZWNh dXNlIGl0IGlzIG91dCBvZiByYW5nZSwgYnV0DQo+PmJlY2F1c2UgaXQgaXMgbm90IHNvbWV0aGlu ZyB5b3UgY2FuIGdldCBmcm9tIGNvbnZlcnRpbmcgYSBiaW5hcnk2NCBpbnRvDQo+PmRlY2ltYWws IHNvIGl0IGlzIHNvbWV3aGF0IGFyYml0cmFyeSB3aGF0IGhhcHBlbnMgb24gdGhlIHdheSBiYWNr Lg0KPj4NCj4+SSB3b3VsZCBiZSBzdXJwcmlzZWQgaWYgdGhlcmUgYXJlIGFjdHVhbCBpbnRlcm9w IHByb2JsZW1zIHdpdGggNWUtMzI0Lg0KPj5Db25zZXF1ZW50bHksIEkgZG9u4oCZdCBxdWl0ZSBi dXkgYSByYW5nZSBsaW1pdCBhdCAxZS0zMDggeWV0Lg0KPj4oSXTigJlzIGEgcHJlY2lzaW9uIGxp bWl0LCBpbiBhbnkgY2FzZS4pDQoNCj5UaGF0IHdhcyBqdXN0IGFuIGVhc3ktdG8tc2VlIGV4YW1w bGUuICBMb25nZXIgbnVtYmVycyBsZXNzIHRoYW4gMWUtMzA4DQo+d2lsbCBhbHNvIGhhdmUgbGVz cyBwcmVjaXNpb24gdGhhbiB5b3UgZXhwZWN0IGZvciBhIGRvdWJsZSwgb3IgZ2V0IHJvdW5kZWQN Cj50byB6ZXJvIHVuZXhwZWN0ZWRseS4NCg0KTGVzcyBwcmVjaXNpb24gdGhhbiBhbiAiYXZlcmFn ZSIgZG91YmxlIG1heWJlLA0KYnV0IG5vdCBsZXNzIHRoYW4geW91ICpleHBlY3QqIGZvciBhIGRv dWJsZS4NCg0KVGhlIDFlLTMwOCBhbmQgMWUzMDggbGltaXRzIGZvciBmdWxsIHByZWNpc2lvbiBh cmUgYSBrZXkgcGFydCAoYW5kIGFuIGV4cGVjdGVkIHBhcnQpIG9mIGEgZG91YmxlLg0KDQpXaGF0 IGlzbuKAmXQgZXhwbGljaXRseSBzdGF0ZWQgYWJvdXQgbnVtYmVycyBpbiBJLUpTT04gaXMgYSAy XjUzIGxpbWl0IGZvciBpbnRlZ2Vycy4gSeKAmW0gbm90IHN1cmUgaG93IHRvIHBocmFzZSBpdC4g SXQgd291bGQgaGF2ZSBiZWVuIG5pY2UgdG8gc2F5ICJhbiBJLUpTT04gbWVzc2FnZSBNVVNUIE5P VCBpbmNsdWRlIGEgbnVtYmVyIHdpdGggb25seSBhbiBpbnRlZ2VyIHBhcnQgKG5vIGZyYWN0aW9u IG9yIGV4cG9uZW50IHBhcnQpIHRoYXQgaXMgZ3JlYXRlciB0aGFuIDkwMDcxOTkyNTQ3NDA5OTIg KDJeNTMpIi4gVW5mb3J0dW5hdGVseSBJIGRvbuKAmXQgdGhpbmsgdGhhdCBpcyB2aWFibGUuIFRo ZSBiZXN0IHdlIGNhbiBwcm9iYWJseSBkbyBpcyBzYXkgdGhhdCAiYW4gSS1KU09OIG1lc3NhZ2Ug TVVTVCBOT1QgZXhwZWN0IGEgcmVjZWl2ZXIgdG8gdHJlYXQgYW4gaW50ZWdlciBhcyB0aGUgZXhh Y3QgdmFsdWUgZ2l2ZW4gKGRpc3RpbmN0IGZyb20gaW50ZWdlcnMgZGlmZmVyaW5nIGJ5IDEpIGlm IGl0IGlzIGdyZWF0ZXIgdGhhbiA5MDA3MTk5MjU0NzQwOTkyIi4gDQoNCkFyZSBlaXRoZXIgb3Ig Ym90aCBvZiB0aGUgZm9sbG93aW5nIHZhbGlkIEktSlNPTiBtZXNzYWdlcz8gRG8gdGhleSBjb21w bHkgd2l0aCAiU0hPVUxEIE5PVCBpbmNsdWRlIG51bWJlcnMgd2hpY2ggZXhwcmVzcyBncmVhdGVy IG1hZ25pdHVkZSBvciBwcmVjaXNpb24gdGhhbiBhIFtkb3VibGVdIj8NCg0KICB7IngiOjEyMzQ1 Njc4OTAxMjM0NTY4MDAwMH0NCg0KICB7InkiOjEyMzQ1Njc4OTAxMjM0NTY3ODkwMX0NCg0KRUNN QVNjcmlwdCAoYXQgbGVhc3QgNS4xKSB3cml0ZXMgbnVtYmVycyBpbiBKU09OIHdpdGggdXAgdG8g MjEgInNpZ25pZmljYW50IiBkZWNpbWFsIGRpZ2l0cyBbaHR0cDovL3d3dy5lY21hLWludGVybmF0 aW9uYWwub3JnL2VjbWEtMjYyLzUuMS8jc2VjLTkuOC4xXS4gSXQgY2FuIHByb2R1Y2UgdGhlIGZp cnN0IGV4YW1wbGUgKHgpIHNvIEkgaG9wZSB0aGF0IGlzIHZhbGlkLiANCg0KLS0NCkphbWVzIE1h bmdlcg0K From nobody Tue May 20 19:07:50 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E1321A0411 for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 19:07:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.251 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.251 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id x0PN6YtBc92l for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 19:07:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2AA841A040E for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 19:07:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1WmvwJ-00068H-OK; Tue, 20 May 2014 22:07:31 -0400 Date: Tue, 20 May 2014 22:07:31 -0400 From: John Cowan To: "Manger, James" Message-ID: <20140521020731.GG9283@mercury.ccil.org> References: <535EB3BF.8080606@cisco.com> <537A5BE0.3020406@cisco.com> <488AE66E-725D-40B3-9FDA-ADA1018BCF65@tzi.org> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E115461FFE59@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E115461FFE59@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Sender: John Cowan Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/DL9n-WzcB8gS_vbuI3y8j1e9ezQ Cc: Carsten Bormann , IETF JSON WG , "Joe Hildebrand \(jhildebr\)" , "Matt Miller \(mamille2\)" Subject: Re: [Json] I-JSON Topic #5: Numbers X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 02:07:48 -0000 Manger, James scripsit: > Less precision than an "average" double maybe, > but not less than you *expect* for a double. It's the "chop to zero" that's a problem for i14y. > The 1e-308 and 1e308 limits for full precision are a key part (and an > expected part) of a double. +1 > The best we can probably do is say that "an I-JSON message > MUST NOT expect a receiver to treat an integer as the exact value > given (distinct from integers differing by 1) if it is greater than > 9007199254740992". Almost. "An I-JSON sender MUST NOT expect a receiver to treat a non-zero number whose absolute value is greater than 1e308 or less than 1e-308 as an exact value. Furthermore, an I-JSON sender MUST NOT expect a receiver to treat an integer whose absolute value is greater than 9007199254740992 as an exact value." > {"x":123456789012345680000} > > {"y":123456789012345678901} This is a special case of the above rules: these are both mathematically 1.2345678901234568e+20. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org By Elbereth and Luthien the Fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me! --Frodo From nobody Tue May 20 20:36:08 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC0991A0455 for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 20:36:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.044 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.044 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ntKEtjq2dAUM for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 20:36:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a66.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DDCE1A044F for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 20:36:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a66.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a66.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8792D350078 for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 20:36:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:cc:content-type; s=cryptonector.com; bh=IGl98tj0mWMkpa5twZ3f qkqeUn0=; b=OExbFdgVibSi2PB55GAlNI4Kz4hYEOpPqaTFfXRUxj5rBlWnFsTQ IEjcEellpHKa59NJEAuY5aVJMYUkvK81Kb9ouzg9OyvY2qs0A5c4ihmBAoHDCoMd dpDJuwckGIGwFbBaT2A9KAeM91I2fTSwMcHZ+w3nGOFcgWh/qu8bvN8= Received: from mail-we0-f181.google.com (mail-we0-f181.google.com [74.125.82.181]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a66.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 39E21350072 for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 20:36:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-we0-f181.google.com with SMTP id w61so1450006wes.12 for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 20:36:04 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.94.71 with SMTP id da7mr19844445wjb.56.1400643364027; Tue, 20 May 2014 20:36:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.29.200 with HTTP; Tue, 20 May 2014 20:36:03 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20140509173159.28855.94523.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <537875D8.1080807@drees.name> Date: Tue, 20 May 2014 22:36:03 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: "stefan@drees.name" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/opUI4iZPCAf0J1Ehky5BxmZeWIM Cc: "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] Seeking more input on draft-ietf-json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 03:36:06 -0000 James Manger points out that I can't help the greedy parser problem because the JSON-text rule uses the ws rule. Well, yeah. Therefore the ABNF can be a bit simpler. From nobody Tue May 20 22:22:56 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 525491A0755 for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 22:22:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.55 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NsaAx1pHrTrS for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 22:22:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.web.de (mout.web.de [212.227.15.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA256 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E95BA1A049D for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 22:22:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from newyork.local.box ([80.187.97.87]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb004) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0Md16Y-1WW0Mt3zco-00IC2f for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 07:22:50 +0200 Message-ID: <537C3829.2040506@drees.name> Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 07:22:49 +0200 From: Stefan Drees User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.8; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: json@ietf.org References: <535EB119.4000908@cisco.com> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E1154581E82F@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> <537BB89E.2040305@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:4Q52YeT9S9XggI/bIWQe4r1kLUZjMC2eKgUaDDI+XJQ+bOjjs/o +CKHSAWbELf2oKTIMTg3tPq/os97ujkRNUhH9LabJ7+P3VjE6aPk/6HI12uHmOcijTSVLim ABLIVLQd5MqyipHtE+piBqIk7G1hZv2F0u+DonUlP3hKZU7EBDuZuENQ5M1iIqY2x8j5LRM YvHNQp4NQ70Ywo3pHdOsw== Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/nGkxi7cdpgR51n5IJNPoRdqES3c Subject: Re: [Json] I-JSON Tpic #2: Top-Level X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: stefan@drees.name List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 05:22:54 -0000 On 2014-05-20 22:50 +02:00, Paul Hoffman wrote: > On May 20, 2014, at 1:27 PM, Tim Bray wrote: > >> For what its worth, this particular consensus excludes me. >> >> 1. The goal for I-JSOn is to maximize interoperability, and there >> is software out there coded to 4627 which will fail when presented with 42 >> or true; so interoperability suffers when you do that. >> 2. For the type of work the IETF is engaged in, Must-Ignore is almost >> always a win in protocol designs, and thus we would do well to encourage >> the use of JSON that makes this straightforward. > > > > The goal of this document is to maximize interoperability. RFC 4627 and > other specs had the rule that JSON texts had to be objects or arrays. > Restricting JSON texts *in this profile* maximizes interoperability > better than RFC 7159 did. > > This profile is not meant to be correcting RFC 7159; it is meant to be > giving a profile that maximizes interoperability. +1 from here {"Stefan": "Greetings"} From nobody Tue May 20 22:33:08 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 991B01A0814 for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 22:33:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.55 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PfUq9PMZXVxd for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 22:33:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.web.de (mout.web.de [212.227.17.12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA256 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 52F491A049D for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 22:33:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from newyork.local.box ([80.187.97.87]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb003) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MNcHy-1WguLB160A-007B8k; Wed, 21 May 2014 07:32:59 +0200 Message-ID: <537C3A8A.20302@drees.name> Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 07:32:58 +0200 From: Stefan Drees User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.8; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nico Williams References: <20140509173159.28855.94523.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <537875D8.1080807@drees.name> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:o9k+J3OZoGJ6DOQqRNZKh9oyOGOpoYF+/eT87OebaV4snKUU7kw cdLZu1eZqJQKAlEDVioaPmCboum4WFxOil6pe+4BulaQsKDe91JIKxfC2dk2Klu7MR5E9fZ j63A4551R14Y1WTAm4O3OHTNBx2Cm3RrPBy7km6MErO2oE3ybQFru7l7UODzWLCEmODXrr2 /BMlA/8mkNng2BnLtpGLA== Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/-R28QFngsdzwe0wO3X6XFi4dgjs Cc: "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] Seeking more input on draft-ietf-json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: stefan@drees.name List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 05:33:05 -0000 On 2014-05-21 05:36 +02:00, Nico Williams wrote: > James Manger points out that I can't help the greedy parser problem > because the JSON-text rule uses the ws rule. Well, yeah. Therefore > the ABNF can be a bit simpler. I seem to have not received that mail of James Manger. But maybe some feedback on top of that "bridged" comment: We define a profile here, extending JSON-text (seen as a core). So how someone implemented her JSON-text parser is not our business. How we suggest parsing our decorating functionality is our business. Maybe the single nicely coined "natural language rule" would suffice. If we use ABNF, I suggested how to translate the simple recipe of this profile "just add at least one newline character between JSON-texts and you're done" into a concise ABNF plus relating (as a service) to the overlapping construct in the referenced JSON-text grammar. why not have the same term stand out in the grammar, that we use in the nicely coined "natural language rule"? All the best, Stefan. From nobody Tue May 20 23:03:18 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB88C1A0817 for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 23:03:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.278 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.278 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WV4YKxSfrpKm for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 23:03:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x22d.google.com (mail-wi0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c05::22d]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9DABF1A078B for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 23:03:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wi0-f173.google.com with SMTP id bs8so7052522wib.12 for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 23:03:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=C+/0rd+l1fxnlXkd7TBMVuKcPUMB66BdrT+AFgaAlOo=; b=YJpi5MnCiYZLl0VTes5rTfEjVrFd1X9VD18sjTMisNXa6hNW8z0/MaIku4nk/9s3hD 9TyMjOyIYKuSexsUagZi4H0gYAmp70eAg7tx7yvhVf7KGVWZZhbQjwY6ECSL1l7pOjPs Hb3aqsk7HPn0Kzl3itJ0bS4Owr8vBsV5KxwGAboKMMDX4HSW5ElaYc0KFrQYLhNEHF1Q JSFtpGt0aA5uCl9Gj4/O6JwV7Tf/5d/xx9n6+0y/kMBixX/8FVzSEiz2pOAJ/o2xejnv LAqPZkW6WSJzkpyIGWv8/gobJpapmQOMVJS31agfK7ylwzzNgPF4hBjm0nqyxbNfdIit PMpQ== X-Received: by 10.180.92.103 with SMTP id cl7mr8321934wib.26.1400652184877; Tue, 20 May 2014 23:03:04 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: cromis@gmail.com Received: by 10.217.141.203 with HTTP; Tue, 20 May 2014 23:02:44 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <535EB119.4000908@cisco.com> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E1154581E82F@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> <537BB89E.2040305@cisco.com> From: Jacob Davies Date: Tue, 20 May 2014 23:02:44 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: Q25GD1NEHl66BgIhMmpT_eblxso Message-ID: To: Paul Hoffman Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/aAjJGLOdfBn-NkqpZ6UqeJ3e0TU Cc: IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] I-JSON Tpic #2: Top-Level X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 06:03:08 -0000 On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 1:50 PM, Paul Hoffman wrote: > The goal of this document is to maximize interoperability. RFC 4627 and other specs had the rule that JSON texts had to be objects or arrays. Restricting JSON texts *in this profile* maximizes interoperability better than RFC 7159 did. Restricting top-level elements to objects or objects and arrays repeats the mistake of the original JSON specification. But almost every JSON parser ignored that advice, most importantly including the Javascript JSON.parse() method. Unlike the other concerns being addressed, the issue of non-object top-level elements is not a subtle gotcha. If an application says it emits or receives JSON but fails to specify the numeric range they support or fails to specify the behavior when duplicate keys are given or fails to specify that non-character code points are disallowed, there is a real risk of subtle interoperability problems. But if an application says it emits or receives JSON strings as JSON documents, the interoperability error with some client that does not support top-level strings is gross. There is no chance of a subtle failure. Mostly I think including this constraint is a mistake because it overshadows the excellent advice given in the rest of the I-JSON spec on the limits of numeric precision, non-character code points, and duplicate keys. It makes I-JSON an unsuitable drop-in replacement for JSON by making certain unambiguous and nearly-universally-supported use cases illegal. This is throwing the baby out with the bathwater; the rationale that it presents a real interoperability concern is not really supportable, as the general indifference to dropping this constraint in recent JSON specifications makes obvious. From nobody Tue May 20 23:16:39 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E59B71A0286 for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 23:16:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IoImzFdtSBEa for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 23:16:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5835D1A027C for ; Tue, 20 May 2014 23:16:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s4L6GXLX022284 for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 08:16:33 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.217.145] (p5489092F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.137.9.47]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id CDC911B24; Wed, 21 May 2014 08:16:32 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.2\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <537BB89E.2040305@cisco.com> Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 08:16:31 +0200 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 422345791.482902-20866ad70f184d7f64f66719fce418ea Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <3BF9B252-3CCD-4BC3-9F30-8634B483FAEE@tzi.org> References: <535EB119.4000908@cisco.com> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E1154581E82F@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> <537BB89E.2040305@cisco.com> To: IETF JSON WG X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.2) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/zLy6vW_mTB_CAkUpXQNm2Mx_SMU Subject: Re: [Json] I-JSON Tpic #2: Top-Level X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 06:16:38 -0000 Restricting I-JSON to top-level objects only, would immediately make = JCard (RFC 7095) and JCal (draft-ietf-jcardcal-jcal-10.txt, in = RFC-EDITOR state) non-I-JSON. Since these are significant IETF efforts, that would make me unhappy. (I don=92t have an opinion yet whether I-JSON should restrict itself to = RFC 4627 JSON, i.e. objects and arrays, or should embrace the = ECMA-404/RFC 7159 extension. Both sides have quite good arguments for = them.) Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten From nobody Wed May 21 01:33:10 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A9B21A029E for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 01:33:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.442 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.442 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VGgv38mR0SPy for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 01:33:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scintmta01-14.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scintmta.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.253.64]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 201BC1A0214 for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 01:33:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmeg01-14.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.253.15]) by scintmta01-14.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F60732E54A; Wed, 21 May 2014 17:33:05 +0900 (JST) Received: from itmail2.it.aoyama.ac.jp (unknown [133.2.206.134]) by scmeg01-14.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp with smtp id 103c_2113_c91cd548_82fa_443e_9e04_ff0bfe1f4a24; Wed, 21 May 2014 17:33:04 +0900 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (unknown [133.2.210.1]) by itmail2.it.aoyama.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2598BF537; Wed, 21 May 2014 17:33:04 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <537C64B3.1010502@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 17:32:51 +0900 From: =?UTF-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Carsten Bormann , IETF JSON WG References: <535EB119.4000908@cisco.com> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E1154581E82F@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> <537BB89E.2040305@cisco.com> <3BF9B252-3CCD-4BC3-9F30-8634B483FAEE@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: <3BF9B252-3CCD-4BC3-9F30-8634B483FAEE@tzi.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/UEL3IFKZXfdMBk-ED7-meeab0QU Subject: Re: [Json] I-JSON Tpic #2: Top-Level X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 08:33:09 -0000 On 2014/05/21 15:16, Carsten Bormann wrote: > Restricting I-JSON to top-level objects only, would immediately make JC= ard (RFC 7095) and JCal (draft-ietf-jcardcal-jcal-10.txt, in RFC-EDITOR s= tate) non-I-JSON. I wanted to write that I didn't see that much of a need for single=20 strings, numbers,... in any serious format for data interchange. As the above seems to offer good counterexamples to my understanding, I=20 went to look at the specs. I only skimmed them for the examples, but I=20 didn't find a single one that would have consisted of just a string or=20 just a number. If there are such examples in these specs, or if there=20 are no examples but the spec allows them nonetheless, could you please=20 point out where (and more interestingly, for what) they are allowed? Regards, Martin. > Since these are significant IETF efforts, that would make me unhappy. > > (I don=E2=80=99t have an opinion yet whether I-JSON should restrict its= elf to RFC 4627 JSON, i.e. objects and arrays, or should embrace the ECMA= -404/RFC 7159 extension. Both sides have quite good arguments for them.) > > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > > _______________________________________________ > json mailing list > json@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json > From nobody Wed May 21 01:39:22 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00A171A02F4 for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 01:39:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.251 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.251 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id h2mCq0VLGEsn for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 01:39:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4334C1A0214 for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 01:39:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s4L8dHmh028722; Wed, 21 May 2014 10:39:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.217.145] (p5489355A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.137.53.90]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 04C501C47; Wed, 21 May 2014 10:39:16 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.2\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <537C64B3.1010502@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 10:39:15 +0200 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 422354355.445063-39d9cf8c246affc2d7e3dc4f4519d95d Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <8D4384F3-0344-4274-B4BB-8A29EF0743BD@tzi.org> References: <535EB119.4000908@cisco.com> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E1154581E82F@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> <537BB89E.2040305@cisco.com> <3BF9B252-3CCD-4BC3-9F30-8634B483FAEE@tzi.org> <537C64B3.1010502@it.aoyama.ac.jp> To: =?windows-1252?Q?=22Martin_J=2E_D=FCrst=22?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.2) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/VEycGJ4511zbUxw0ZUCb4pBnMj4 Cc: IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] I-JSON Tpic #2: Top-Level X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 08:39:22 -0000 JCard and JCal use top-level arrays, not JSON =93objects=94 (maps). My message was about the proposal to recommend not using arrays as top = level data items. AFAICS, JCard and JCal are RFC 4627 compliant. Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten PS.: In my experience, calling JSON maps =93objects=94 is the single = most confusing thing in talking to people about JSON. 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charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.2\)) From: Paul Hoffman In-Reply-To: <3BF9B252-3CCD-4BC3-9F30-8634B483FAEE@tzi.org> Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 08:09:08 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <39917247-1D81-4E7E-AE00-D28546994813@vpnc.org> References: <535EB119.4000908@cisco.com> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E1154581E82F@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> <537BB89E.2040305@cisco.com> <3BF9B252-3CCD-4BC3-9F30-8634B483FAEE@tzi.org> To: IETF JSON WG X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.2) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/EVUa82ZPL-fTmknAIoPtBhtlaqc Subject: Re: [Json] I-JSON Tpic #2: Top-Level X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 15:09:13 -0000 On May 20, 2014, at 11:16 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote: > Restricting I-JSON to top-level objects only, would immediately make = JCard (RFC 7095) and JCal (draft-ietf-jcardcal-jcal-10.txt, in = RFC-EDITOR state) non-I-JSON. This is a good reason to change I-JSON's current requirement to be = object+array. I think Tim's original paring-down was to allow an = identifier, but we scrapped that, so making I-JSON no more restrictive = than 4627 and friends would be fine. --Paul Hoffman= From nobody Wed May 21 08:13:26 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB17B1A0364 for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 08:13:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.978 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.978 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tWSaunbh3bt8 for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 08:13:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ig0-x236.google.com (mail-ig0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::236]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C8DD01A0691 for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 08:13:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ig0-f182.google.com with SMTP id uy17so2228800igb.9 for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 08:13:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=E3Fd4tZBb/BY6UjoKI+k2ttJ64rEysRstU6f4deDoCU=; b=o6+L2oko4b5YcDAPnwmy/RqqcsgaDN5yRRuOd5Nx6fAbuk+GKjQ/SypIKp52Nkr9k4 CXR1akTLLDPIDNTBHiizCTb7/yJmfZqutee5H0fkqR48Zc9DwhEiwAwwthQz9KIkqNeE QGn5v9cSlrAoQ7eWBjqKp4qu5D36M9tDEdr6dOLdeaGONflwsgH9HnwVIJhibH3gwOKo kvP6XHB2vrjtqf7rWtKWgzAAb0zlXri/Gz5VFiaYyZ7Bu7NeXISSa4EtCr+5Eh/n3qy6 2FFWxvTcq+gJTbGlrLnCsD1NCFEGjPOPBZsYU3/+djKc2e5nGl0KOVhQa+d2jmqMBtHO 0jbA== X-Received: by 10.43.151.7 with SMTP id kq7mr3368839icc.78.1400685194708; Wed, 21 May 2014 08:13:14 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: cromis@gmail.com Received: by 10.64.9.180 with HTTP; Wed, 21 May 2014 08:12:54 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <537C64B3.1010502@it.aoyama.ac.jp> References: <535EB119.4000908@cisco.com> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E1154581E82F@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> <537BB89E.2040305@cisco.com> <3BF9B252-3CCD-4BC3-9F30-8634B483FAEE@tzi.org> <537C64B3.1010502@it.aoyama.ac.jp> From: Jacob Davies Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 08:12:54 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: fYa2XFm0zdOC11deXRkLUS8hGr0 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2E_D=C3=BCrst?= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/FHgxFzz6zxS5HWDWi8SyR44enDA Cc: Carsten Bormann , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] I-JSON Tpic #2: Top-Level X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 15:13:18 -0000 On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 1:32 AM, "Martin J. D=C3=BCrst" wrote: > I wanted to write that I didn't see that much of a need for single string= s, > numbers,... in any serious format for data interchange. Some examples from the earlier discussion: 1. The retrieval of part of a resource by path. Requiring a JSON object envelope is pointless and asymmetric. 2. Patching just part of a resource by path. Again, requiring an object envelope is unnecessary. The most common transport for JSON is HTTP, which already provides for an out-of-band key-value space for extra data. It probably is the case that JSON objects are the most suitable choice for the messages exchanged in most protocols, but there are exceptions as described above, and in any case I doubt anyone is really confused over whether an object or a string is the most suitable message format. From nobody Wed May 21 08:19:38 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 156641A0346 for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 08:19:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8Zfh3LL66UmF for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 08:19:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ve0-f177.google.com (mail-ve0-f177.google.com [209.85.128.177]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0D0DF1A0845 for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 08:19:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ve0-f177.google.com with SMTP id db11so2645034veb.8 for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 08:19:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=87SEh+7gZV5yuRLtd9d9m7+i72ghCASHdzZbR5tWf5s=; b=f+vbP825zs0PDytVVVCu/cqvCGwh3gQraPoeuz5nQRfe8BC6wq65ASe/dV0WoAYYb8 pxaFixDgXR//sW2kIAaEUNGo1hneZydNyOnJQvaA4IxiZQD1/aaxQVVjCcKpyd3t0e5V Az3sMYwCD+Pl+7H67gyDcWnnCGaQPOXu9tEFJG2JL1263El177NTmKyZ1V2Pf34xaw/g ZTu6riysI3Oz7XJSBKZMMjGYrepO1mG+LDdksh474C+GiiyYPiiG+WMUoIFwUQvJNSE/ m5vHPTdoeBLhTwun3diQag2UcxFO6tTxwyKUZlRwD6ha5U3f/CYfLgJ5PlBxr7ZS49cO us/g== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlRMO/OZuUl109eXya1amIbeRjkRg3bmIZXnYmwLSj1LR23gWgDRz9mtmGGKLztFs3FgOLu X-Received: by 10.52.27.170 with SMTP id u10mr817491vdg.69.1400685561405; Wed, 21 May 2014 08:19:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.98.73 with HTTP; Wed, 21 May 2014 08:19:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [50.95.189.211] In-Reply-To: References: <535EB3BF.8080606@cisco.com> <537A5BE0.3020406@cisco.com> <488AE66E-725D-40B3-9FDA-ADA1018BCF65@tzi.org> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E115461FFE59@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> <20140521020731.GG9283@mercury.ccil.org> From: Tim Bray Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 10:19:01 -0500 Message-ID: To: "Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf307c9d005475d404f9ea85fe Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/4GfuHlW3crN8yIndMnGFPJnw2mw Cc: "Manger, James" , Carsten Bormann , "Matt Miller \(mamille2\)" , John Cowan , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] I-JSON Topic #5: Numbers X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 15:19:29 -0000 --20cf307c9d005475d404f9ea85fe Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I=E2=80=99ll go with the flow, but I=E2=80=99m wondering if it might not be= better to just call out to IEEE 754=E2=80=99s semantics, since that is well understood and= widely described; take a call-by-reference approach. On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 9:59 AM, Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr) < jhildebr@cisco.com> wrote: > On 5/20/14, 8:07 PM, "John Cowan" wrote: > > >"An I-JSON sender MUST NOT expect a receiver to treat a non-zero number > >whose absolute value is greater than 1e308 or less than 1e-308 > >as an exact value. Furthermore, an I-JSON sender MUST NOT expect a > >receiver to treat an integer whose absolute value is greater than > >9007199254740992 as an exact value." > > +1. Succinct and captures the issues. > > -- > Joe Hildebrand > > > > _______________________________________________ > json mailing list > json@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json > --=20 - Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a private message, see https://keybase.io/timbray) --20cf307c9d005475d404f9ea85fe Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I= =E2=80=99ll go with the flow, but I=E2=80=99m wondering if it might not be = better to just call out to IEEE 754=E2=80=99s semantics, since that is well= understood and widely described; take a call-by-reference approach.


On Wed,= May 21, 2014 at 9:59 AM, Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr) <<= a href=3D"mailto:jhildebr@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">jhildebr@cisco.com> wrote:
On 5/20/14, 8:07 PM, "J= ohn Cowan" <cowan@mercury= .ccil.org> wrote:

>"An I-JSON sender MUST NOT expect a receiver to treat a non-zero n= umber
>whose absolute value is greater than 1e308 or less than 1e-308
>as an exact value. =C2=A0Furthermore, an I-JSON sender MUST NOT expect = a
>receiver to treat an integer whose absolute value is greater than
>9007199254740992 as an exact value."

+1. =C2=A0Succinct and captures the issues.

--
Joe Hildebrand



_______________________________________________
json mailing list
json@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json



--
=
- Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a privat= e message, see htt= ps://keybase.io/timbray)
--20cf307c9d005475d404f9ea85fe-- From nobody Wed May 21 08:20:28 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0A721A0153 for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 08:20:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1lhbqivb56G8 for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 08:20:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 770951A087D for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 08:20:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s4LFJwQ5002995; Wed, 21 May 2014 17:19:58 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.217.145] (p5489355A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.137.53.90]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id F37D91010; Wed, 21 May 2014 17:19:57 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.2\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <20140521020731.GG9283@mercury.ccil.org> Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 17:19:56 +0200 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 422378396.117078-fd356e2509e961a4e66b6927881bf91e Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <0374DE58-FC77-4CCA-B100-186C1A0701D4@tzi.org> References: <535EB3BF.8080606@cisco.com> <537A5BE0.3020406@cisco.com> <488AE66E-725D-40B3-9FDA-ADA1018BCF65@tzi.org> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E115461FFE59@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> <20140521020731.GG9283@mercury.ccil.org> To: John Cowan X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.2) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/5zmcxLFoskLDH0u9bNLCEpzXk2g Cc: IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] I-JSON Topic #5: Numbers X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 15:20:19 -0000 On 21 May 2014, at 04:07, John Cowan wrote: > as an exact value What is your definition of this term here? The meaning I=92m used to for =93exact value=94 implies you shouldn=92t = expect a binary64-based implementation to treat 1.1 as an exact value. (Or, more specifically, expect an implementation to internalize this = representation as the identical value that would be implied by = interpreting 1.1 as an ISO 6093 NR2 floating point number. Actually, most implementations I=92m aware of will internalize 1.1 as = something like 2476979795053773/2251799813685248 and not the exact = 2476979795053772.8/2251799813685248 =3D 11/10.) > Furthermore, an I-JSON sender MUST NOT expect a > receiver to treat an integer whose absolute value is greater than > 9007199254740992 as an exact value. I=92m with you on that one. Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten From nobody Wed May 21 08:21:21 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAB481A0135 for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 08:21:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Yx4CsZvMGcso for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 08:21:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vc0-f180.google.com (mail-vc0-f180.google.com [209.85.220.180]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EF4081A0874 for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 08:20:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vc0-f180.google.com with SMTP id hy4so2732555vcb.11 for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 08:20:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=7/yseJFgUdb8nNOjuTAuKgzBc8/fdu0TjBCQq4/PsvA=; b=DinwetkSLiyEdZqxEYQycSga/FOLyiligS7bV4u3NP9aTmTHrxL/SOgVUUzCjSD3m3 iy4zMe+hPBth3HdssE7UK+j5tkvt+PSiwtBmkD21g7qsxLLwvA4YnsmdmZ4jvFhNs0N3 Xk0+uoQBNIjMrDi+/BLP1rVWhWqxlnjo0CQxfRPUhjuX/szMf9KuTiHNQ5QV4O3Ie/Rh nOJSO+AKtHWw+34wbeAdmGSiQAPf2kazLoxQwhrWwwhxqenFGPTAGMRj53U34uROOnV7 qk9O2uPopMOhEq7EcROfTunYv/sgM4g61A+Xl7YYdUwpFSy1PVpNCO43oeBf1UKRdJwT hiKg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlE+H21s81gOpvd8pPgWbjBW84yMq991uHFS3VvpMPwYD8H9jKLIhAqBqlC4uXJCYuQDFkS X-Received: by 10.220.105.4 with SMTP id r4mr10403072vco.27.1400685629517; Wed, 21 May 2014 08:20:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.98.73 with HTTP; Wed, 21 May 2014 08:20:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [50.95.189.211] In-Reply-To: References: <535EB3BF.8080606@cisco.com> <537A5BE0.3020406@cisco.com> <488AE66E-725D-40B3-9FDA-ADA1018BCF65@tzi.org> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E115461FFE59@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> <20140521020731.GG9283@mercury.ccil.org> From: Tim Bray Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 10:20:09 -0500 Message-ID: To: "Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e0122f33263f2f504f9ea897c Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/KqnYjOA3LH0050r_PO6Iwfmt2a8 Cc: "Manger, James" , Carsten Bormann , "Matt Miller \(mamille2\)" , John Cowan , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] I-JSON Topic #5: Numbers X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 15:21:19 -0000 --089e0122f33263f2f504f9ea897c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Probably worth mentioning that 9007199254740992 is 2**53. On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 9:59 AM, Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr) < jhildebr@cisco.com> wrote: > On 5/20/14, 8:07 PM, "John Cowan" wrote: > > >"An I-JSON sender MUST NOT expect a receiver to treat a non-zero number > >whose absolute value is greater than 1e308 or less than 1e-308 > >as an exact value. Furthermore, an I-JSON sender MUST NOT expect a > >receiver to treat an integer whose absolute value is greater than > >9007199254740992 as an exact value." > > +1. Succinct and captures the issues. > > -- > Joe Hildebrand > > > > _______________________________________________ > json mailing list > json@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json > --=20 - Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a private message, see https://keybase.io/timbray) --089e0122f33263f2f504f9ea897c Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Probably worth mentioning that 9007199254740992 is 2**53.


On = Wed, May 21, 2014 at 9:59 AM, Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr) &= lt;jhildebr@cisco.c= om> wrote:
On 5/20/14, 8:07 PM, "J= ohn Cowan" <cowan@mercury= .ccil.org> wrote:

>"An I-JSON sender MUST NOT expect a receiver to treat a non-zero n= umber
>whose absolute value is greater than 1e308 or less than 1e-308
>as an exact value. =C2=A0Furthermore, an I-JSON sender MUST NOT expect = a
>receiver to treat an integer whose absolute value is greater than
>9007199254740992 as an exact value."

+1. =C2=A0Succinct and captures the issues.

--
Joe Hildebrand



_______________________________________________
json mailing list
json@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json



--
=
- Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a privat= e message, see htt= ps://keybase.io/timbray)
--089e0122f33263f2f504f9ea897c-- From nobody Wed May 21 08:39:57 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28E091A06D7 for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 08:39:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.852 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.852 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ovy5VRcZzGZB for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 08:39:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com [173.37.86.78]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E13941A03DD for ; 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Wed, 21 May 2014 15:39:48 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com ([169.254.15.76]) by xhc-aln-x11.cisco.com ([173.36.12.85]) with mapi id 14.03.0123.003; Wed, 21 May 2014 10:39:48 -0500 From: "Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)" To: Jacob Davies , =?utf-8?B?TWFydGluIEouIETDvHJzdA==?= Thread-Topic: [Json] I-JSON Tpic #2: Top-Level Thread-Index: AQHPdGi105aJE7T7fEWGVLPUM+Ea0ptK42qAgAAmF4CAAG/GAP//ovKA Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 15:39:47 +0000 Message-ID: References: <535EB119.4000908@cisco.com> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E1154581E82F@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> <537BB89E.2040305@cisco.com> <3BF9B252-3CCD-4BC3-9F30-8634B483FAEE@tzi.org> <537C64B3.1010502@it.aoyama.ac.jp> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.4.1.140326 x-originating-ip: [10.21.151.90] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <235A02593EF4C140AF36487704FA081B@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/MHngsedDrf88_au3A_0wPHvt_jM Cc: Carsten Bormann , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] I-JSON Tpic #2: Top-Level X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 15:39:52 -0000 T24gNS8yMS8xNCwgOToxMiBBTSwgIkphY29iIERhdmllcyIgPGphY29iQHdlbGwuY29tPiB3cm90 ZToNCg0KPlNvbWUgZXhhbXBsZXMgZnJvbSB0aGUgZWFybGllciBkaXNjdXNzaW9uOg0KPg0KPjEu IFRoZSByZXRyaWV2YWwgb2YgcGFydCBvZiBhIHJlc291cmNlIGJ5IHBhdGguIFJlcXVpcmluZyBh IEpTT04NCj5vYmplY3QgZW52ZWxvcGUgaXMgcG9pbnRsZXNzIGFuZCBhc3ltbWV0cmljLg0KPjIu IFBhdGNoaW5nIGp1c3QgcGFydCBvZiBhIHJlc291cmNlIGJ5IHBhdGguIEFnYWluLCByZXF1aXJp bmcgYW4NCj5vYmplY3QgZW52ZWxvcGUgaXMgdW5uZWNlc3NhcnkuDQo+DQo+VGhlIG1vc3QgY29t bW9uIHRyYW5zcG9ydCBmb3IgSlNPTiBpcyBIVFRQLCB3aGljaCBhbHJlYWR5IHByb3ZpZGVzIGZv cg0KPmFuIG91dC1vZi1iYW5kIGtleS12YWx1ZSBzcGFjZSBmb3IgZXh0cmEgZGF0YS4gSXQgcHJv YmFibHkgaXMgdGhlIGNhc2UNCj50aGF0IEpTT04gb2JqZWN0cyBhcmUgdGhlIG1vc3Qgc3VpdGFi bGUgY2hvaWNlIGZvciB0aGUgbWVzc2FnZXMNCj5leGNoYW5nZWQgaW4gbW9zdCBwcm90b2NvbHMs IGJ1dCB0aGVyZSBhcmUgZXhjZXB0aW9ucyBhcyBkZXNjcmliZWQNCj5hYm92ZSwgYW5kIGluIGFu eSBjYXNlIEkgZG91YnQgYW55b25lIGlzIHJlYWxseSBjb25mdXNlZCBvdmVyIHdoZXRoZXINCj5h biBvYmplY3Qgb3IgYSBzdHJpbmcgaXMgdGhlIG1vc3Qgc3VpdGFibGUgbWVzc2FnZSBmb3JtYXQu DQoNCkZvciB0aGVzZSBjYXNlcywgd2h5IHNlbmQgSlNPTiBhdCBhbGw/ICBXaHkgbm90IGp1c3Qg c2VuZCBhIHN0cmluZz8gIFRoYXQNCndheSB5b3UgYWxzbyBkb24ndCBuZWVkIHRoZSB1bm5lY2Vz c2FyeSBkb3VibGUtcXVvdGUgZW52ZWxvcGU/DQoNCi0tIA0KSm9lIEhpbGRlYnJhbmQNCg0KDQoN Cg== From nobody Wed May 21 08:48:19 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6647B1A0886 for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 08:48:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.044 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.044 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fP88raRW8UTn for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 08:48:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a103.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8504F1A086E for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 08:48:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a103.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a103.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C279C2007F220 for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 08:48:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:cc:content-type; s=cryptonector.com; bh=g8K1BEYOEt/4yweLIyA4 7o2ZZ1g=; b=P3rexyS51dAQTIsjmXb0/jeMSKwTL23gupmWEDyoYHVzfHDojyQa DDj6XTV+F2VkJpMx+B4BMVml9Oab1Fif3Oq5hk8kc+8MXQQxwFvnujjcAA0iZLow APZaPQWD2lCDfQ0mtvq4QQswnUUTqT3qKbmjgx+Ez1zQEShfXDiqI3w= Received: from mail-oa0-f49.google.com (mail-oa0-f49.google.com [209.85.219.49]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a103.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A83712007F21D for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 08:48:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oa0-f49.google.com with SMTP id eb12so2462960oac.22 for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 08:48:10 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.60.41.104 with SMTP id e8mr53200084oel.18.1400687290143; Wed, 21 May 2014 08:48:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.182.234.4 with HTTP; Wed, 21 May 2014 08:48:10 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <535EB119.4000908@cisco.com> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E1154581E82F@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> <537BB89E.2040305@cisco.com> Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 10:48:10 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: Paul Hoffman Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/Z10Kw1ZK8EPU4CJQOwr4zFcMQAY Cc: IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] I-JSON Tpic #2: Top-Level X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 15:48:15 -0000 On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 3:50 PM, Paul Hoffman wrote: > > > The goal of this document is to maximize interoperability. RFC 4627 and other specs had the rule that JSON texts had to be objects or arrays. Restricting JSON texts *in this profile* maximizes interoperability better than RFC 7159 did. Is that so? Why? Because the earlier RFC also so restricted them? But why should that matter now for a new profile of RFC7159? Perhaps because interop with RFC4627 implementations is desired? But every one of those I've looked at handles non-object/array values at the top-level... (granted, I've not looked at all of them). Anyways, IIUC Tim's proposed restriction is about his preference is for an ignore-unknown/unexpected policy for extensibility reasons. Nico -- From nobody Wed May 21 08:51:19 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 819DB1A0445 for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 08:51:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.744 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.744 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LcXx-J_MKErv for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 08:51:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a90.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 579571A03DD for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 08:51:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a90.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a90.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 949B62AC06E for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 08:51:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s= cryptonector.com; bh=dosckdCmPlVg54H/lovPbhdERwk=; b=xzV9FsPzZJS Bp8uidna2FpDjs2ZvfUbC37jKm0/zAG9KLRFsKnBeY8jDlOIkpbUFbP86f2WQoZP 75iNoLSvB8VpNoNZvn/2pvpADCbliqvrDhlJ95NYSgN8OAhvNo6VAIhsLLoUfYZB uyUdaUK7XkmOiiGKWMvrih97kmDc1ix8= Received: from mail-oa0-f43.google.com (mail-oa0-f43.google.com [209.85.219.43]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a90.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7550E2AC06A for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 08:51:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oa0-f43.google.com with SMTP id l6so2497219oag.2 for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 08:51:14 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.60.155.33 with SMTP id vt1mr52240451oeb.3.1400687474057; Wed, 21 May 2014 08:51:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.182.234.4 with HTTP; Wed, 21 May 2014 08:51:13 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <537C64B3.1010502@it.aoyama.ac.jp> References: <535EB119.4000908@cisco.com> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E1154581E82F@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> <537BB89E.2040305@cisco.com> <3BF9B252-3CCD-4BC3-9F30-8634B483FAEE@tzi.org> <537C64B3.1010502@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 10:51:13 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2E_D=C3=BCrst?= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/TlIemps2_Wsrwy-AlKiKEElrr2c Cc: Carsten Bormann , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] I-JSON Tpic #2: Top-Level X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 15:51:16 -0000 On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 3:32 AM, "Martin J. D=C3=BCrst" wrote: > On 2014/05/21 15:16, Carsten Bormann wrote: >> Restricting I-JSON to top-level objects only, would immediately make JCa= rd >> (RFC 7095) and JCal (draft-ietf-jcardcal-jcal-10.txt, in RFC-EDITOR stat= e) >> non-I-JSON. > > I wanted to write that I didn't see that much of a need for single string= s, > numbers,... in any serious format for data interchange. > > [...] Well, one could make use of JSON text sequences where each text is not an object or an array. The canonical example for me would be database query results when the result set is of indeterminate length at first. Suppose you have an I-JSON application that you want to extend to use JSON text sequences... Nico -- From nobody Wed May 21 08:54:25 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62C461A0851 for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 08:54:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.044 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.044 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XNzkBSZDerKS for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 08:54:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a86.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D53011A06F9 for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 08:54:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a86.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a86.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2451336006D for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 08:54:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:cc:content-type; s=cryptonector.com; bh=C2GSGG/34OmXgTP5sTEG qQo14NE=; b=GRG45E1nln+PSbRgLvFuTPT2lwbUUpBvgDEkAUQj1BVfis+AX3VS R5LhKQhjjtuhvSva4ntPCGC8J+kbfZtcxDiVNNe6p8fjt0PS8Gk6Sp6bxMeB84Lw lumTk+R0ez92BBAk0//wIgKBIPKPBssZfX7ZYxa5TipQegQ2w9E1MGU= Received: from mail-oa0-f48.google.com (mail-oa0-f48.google.com [209.85.219.48]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a86.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id F313536006B for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 08:54:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oa0-f48.google.com with SMTP id i4so2457060oah.21 for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 08:54:16 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.60.33.199 with SMTP id t7mr20069407oei.73.1400687656489; Wed, 21 May 2014 08:54:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.182.234.4 with HTTP; Wed, 21 May 2014 08:54:16 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <535EB119.4000908@cisco.com> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E1154581E82F@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> <537BB89E.2040305@cisco.com> <3BF9B252-3CCD-4BC3-9F30-8634B483FAEE@tzi.org> <537C64B3.1010502@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 10:54:16 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: "Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/JDXCoL8UUC7BWUZ8MPxjGNQOmXc Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2E_D=C3=BCrst?= , Jacob Davies , Carsten Bormann , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] I-JSON Tpic #2: Top-Level X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 15:54:18 -0000 On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 10:39 AM, Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr) wrote: > For these cases, why send JSON at all? Why not just send a string? That > way you also don't need the unnecessary double-quote envelope? Because one might want to distinguish numeric, string, boolean, and null values from each other. Or because one might want to apply JSON text sequencing. If you use JSON, you can make use of JSON text sequences. Nico -- From nobody Wed May 21 09:05:48 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 415961A086E for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 09:05:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.347 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.347 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QDATAyoJQj8c for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 09:05:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hoffman.proper.com (IPv6.Hoffman.Proper.COM [IPv6:2605:8e00:100:41::81]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 34F581A073F for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 09:05:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.20.30.90] (50-1-51-90.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com [50.1.51.90]) (authenticated bits=0) by hoffman.proper.com (8.14.8/8.14.7) with ESMTP id s4LG5QWI039205 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 21 May 2014 09:05:27 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: hoffman.proper.com: Host 50-1-51-90.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com [50.1.51.90] claimed to be [10.20.30.90] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.2\)) From: Paul Hoffman In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 09:05:24 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <3CA1A8E2-341B-4E09-AC4F-30E427916F1B@vpnc.org> References: <535EB119.4000908@cisco.com> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E1154581E82F@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> <537BB89E.2040305@cisco.com> To: Nico Williams X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.2) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/B3BPYRwvydjVM9bywaOgecJZBHw Cc: IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] I-JSON Tpic #2: Top-Level X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 16:05:39 -0000 On May 21, 2014, at 8:48 AM, Nico Williams = wrote: > On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 3:50 PM, Paul Hoffman = wrote: >> >>=20 >> The goal of this document is to maximize interoperability. RFC 4627 = and other specs had the rule that JSON texts had to be objects or = arrays. Restricting JSON texts *in this profile* maximizes = interoperability better than RFC 7159 did. >=20 > Is that so? Yes. The goal is stated in the abstract and introduction. > Why? =20 Because that's what the WG wanted. > Because the earlier RFC also so restricted them? Only partially. The more important part is that implementations followed = the earlier RFC and fall over when they see something different. That's = a lack of interop. > But why should that matter now for a new profile of RFC7159? =20 This is feeling circular. To interop with existing implementations, this = profile needs to pay attention to what they do. If you don't care about = interop, then (a) don't implement I-JSON and (b) propose N-JSON. > Perhaps > because interop with RFC4627 implementations is desired? =20 Not perhaps: definitely. > But every > one of those I've looked at handles non-object/array values at the > top-level... (granted, I've not looked at all of them). There were reports that some fell over or processed the other top-level = items wrong. > Anyways, IIUC Tim's proposed restriction is about his preference is > for an ignore-unknown/unexpected policy for extensibility reasons. YUI. --Paul Hoffman= From nobody Wed May 21 09:19:16 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B6AF1A039B for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 09:19:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.044 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.044 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8-sGcGYtYYnP for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 09:19:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a102.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A72701A032F for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 09:19:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a102.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a102.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B85832006D30E for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 09:19:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s= cryptonector.com; bh=k9/6tCZuec6imKWa3pGa2ZLBQRE=; b=BJ3FRPeAoDH LOPuoQ+GXCE2mSYw6p6mC0iYSn/zHTb9vCnE3KQUGbKk4AaSekkrauasdm3V1NXc 7Z/ovjIxB2ZB4XAtGIc6RKsCwa4//DSB2ejqjwz85eSUFskyChTtX6QHJtkx5nY4 sXP1rlGjgu4tfd9Ba28itw5p2ZzcVJv0= Received: from mail-ob0-f180.google.com (mail-ob0-f180.google.com [209.85.214.180]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a102.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 926AE2006D30C for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 09:19:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ob0-f180.google.com with SMTP id va2so2423643obc.39 for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 09:19:13 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.60.33.199 with SMTP id t7mr20267638oei.73.1400689153207; Wed, 21 May 2014 09:19:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.182.234.4 with HTTP; Wed, 21 May 2014 09:19:13 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <535EB3BF.8080606@cisco.com> <537A5BE0.3020406@cisco.com> <488AE66E-725D-40B3-9FDA-ADA1018BCF65@tzi.org> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E115461FFE59@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> <20140521020731.GG9283@mercury.ccil.org> Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 11:19:13 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: Tim Bray Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/Gv8Qh0S68tuilT0ajpfiNs8xX4E Cc: John Cowan , IETF JSON WG , "Joe Hildebrand \(jhildebr\)" , "Matt Miller \(mamille2\)" , Carsten Bormann , "Manger, James" Subject: Re: [Json] I-JSON Topic #5: Numbers X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 16:19:15 -0000 On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 10:19 AM, Tim Bray wrote: > I=E2=80=99ll go with the flow, but I=E2=80=99m wondering if it might not = be better to just > call out to IEEE 754=E2=80=99s semantics, since that is well understood a= nd widely > described; take a call-by-reference approach. +1 If we're going to be making reference to limits derived from IEEE754, then we should be referencing IEEE754. Nico -- From nobody Wed May 21 09:21:57 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAA951A039B for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 09:21:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.044 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.044 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HpSr7FjmNs1D for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 09:21:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a107.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F5281A0183 for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 09:21:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a107.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a107.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D6292007F10A for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 09:21:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:cc:content-type; s=cryptonector.com; bh=k9bYtruWoJcjVsGYkh7l jvm8DfY=; b=r945oZUgjZX8QvQ2wHyF7AF7eXNhgyMY5PpRpcxn6jUzrOmrrOSv e4JM5J0vHCDqTJciThEHNyDg9LTXIA93nJ8JIJpMKkrHIQiY7m6V62GXpTDAsujV 5wTHN7fEd+yjLuk79ZRIneus7uOOQEBUWxxS8DaNXce9geASFmkCWLc= Received: from mail-ob0-f176.google.com (mail-ob0-f176.google.com [209.85.214.176]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a107.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3342C2007F103 for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 09:21:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ob0-f176.google.com with SMTP id wo20so2409531obc.35 for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 09:21:52 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.182.43.132 with SMTP id w4mr52501401obl.41.1400689312849; Wed, 21 May 2014 09:21:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.182.234.4 with HTTP; Wed, 21 May 2014 09:21:52 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <3CA1A8E2-341B-4E09-AC4F-30E427916F1B@vpnc.org> References: <535EB119.4000908@cisco.com> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E1154581E82F@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> <537BB89E.2040305@cisco.com> <3CA1A8E2-341B-4E09-AC4F-30E427916F1B@vpnc.org> Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 11:21:52 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: Paul Hoffman Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/B3zDtqlK7WgXOmBDgYQPLdws3RY Cc: IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] I-JSON Tpic #2: Top-Level X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 16:21:55 -0000 On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 11:05 AM, Paul Hoffman wrote: > On May 21, 2014, at 8:48 AM, Nico Williams wrote: >> On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 3:50 PM, Paul Hoffman wrote: >>> >>> >>> The goal of this document is to maximize interoperability. RFC 4627 and other specs had the rule that JSON texts had to be objects or arrays. Restricting JSON texts *in this profile* maximizes interoperability better than RFC 7159 did. >> >> Perhaps >> because interop with RFC4627 implementations is desired? > > Not perhaps: definitely. Thanks. >> But every >> one of those I've looked at handles non-object/array values at the >> top-level... (granted, I've not looked at all of them). > > There were reports that some fell over or processed the other top-level items wrong. I missed them. Where can I find those reports? (what search terms might I use?) Nico -- From nobody Wed May 21 09:43:43 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CC901A0724 for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 09:43:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.347 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.347 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Th2Df4hIAuCh for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 09:43:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hoffman.proper.com (IPv6.Hoffman.Proper.COM [IPv6:2605:8e00:100:41::81]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6BE311A06B3 for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 09:43:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.20.30.90] (50-1-51-90.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com [50.1.51.90]) (authenticated bits=0) by hoffman.proper.com (8.14.8/8.14.7) with ESMTP id s4LGhcF7042462 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 21 May 2014 09:43:39 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: hoffman.proper.com: Host 50-1-51-90.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com [50.1.51.90] claimed to be [10.20.30.90] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.2\)) From: Paul Hoffman In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 09:43:36 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <51445F32-1763-4B21-8901-1470C474DCFD@vpnc.org> References: <535EB119.4000908@cisco.com> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E1154581E82F@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> <537BB89E.2040305@cisco.com> <3CA1A8E2-341B-4E09-AC4F-30E427916F1B@vpnc.org> To: Nico Williams X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.2) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/Apv8sReD8d_n2QxeDZLjoLfN2io Cc: IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] I-JSON Tpic #2: Top-Level X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 16:43:42 -0000 On May 21, 2014, at 9:21 AM, Nico Williams = wrote: > On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 11:05 AM, Paul Hoffman = wrote: >> There were reports that some fell over or processed the other = top-level items wrong. >=20 > I missed them. Where can I find those reports? (what search terms > might I use?) Maybe I made them up. I just used all the search terms I could = think of and failed to find the (multiple!) reports I remember. Having said that, a few people (including you...) felt that requiring = containers at the top level was beneficial for streaming parsers to = detect broken streams. There could be streaming parsers that rely on = that. --Paul Hoffman= From nobody Wed May 21 09:47:03 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9833A1A06B3 for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 09:47:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.152 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.152 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JNBH5rNocTsd for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 09:46:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-2.cisco.com (alln-iport-2.cisco.com [173.37.142.89]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C39F41A0183 for ; 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Wed, 21 May 2014 16:46:57 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com ([169.254.15.76]) by xhc-rcd-x03.cisco.com ([173.37.183.77]) with mapi id 14.03.0123.003; Wed, 21 May 2014 11:46:57 -0500 From: "Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)" To: Nico Williams , Paul Hoffman Thread-Topic: [Json] I-JSON Tpic #2: Top-Level Thread-Index: AQHPdGi105aJE7T7fEWGVLPUM+Ea0ptKPs8AgAAGkoCAAT3AAIAABNEAgAAEmgD//6JygA== Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 16:46:56 +0000 Message-ID: References: <535EB119.4000908@cisco.com> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E1154581E82F@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> <537BB89E.2040305@cisco.com> <3CA1A8E2-341B-4E09-AC4F-30E427916F1B@vpnc.org> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.4.1.140326 x-originating-ip: [10.129.24.156] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/Q5K7bh7quzrw9XuLY0GvKBufIek Cc: IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] I-JSON Tpic #2: Top-Level X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 16:47:00 -0000 T24gNS8yMS8xNCwgMTA6MjEgQU0sICJOaWNvIFdpbGxpYW1zIiA8bmljb0BjcnlwdG9uZWN0b3Iu Y29tPiB3cm90ZToNCg0KPkkgbWlzc2VkIHRoZW0uICBXaGVyZSBjYW4gSSBmaW5kIHRob3NlIHJl cG9ydHM/ICAod2hhdCBzZWFyY2ggdGVybXMNCj5taWdodCBJIHVzZT8pDQoNClJ1Ynk6DQpodHRw Oi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWwtYXJjaGl2ZS93ZWIvanNvbi9jdXJyZW50L21zZzAwNjcwLmh0 bWwNCg0KDQpJIGp1c3QgdHJpZWQgaXQgd2l0aCB0aGUgc3RvY2sgUnVieSBvbiBhbiB1cC10by1k YXRlIE1hYywgYW5kIGl0IHN0aWxsDQpmYWlscy4gIFdlIG1pZ2h0IGhhdmUgc3RvcHBlZCBsb29r aW5nIHdoZW4gd2UgZm91bmQgYSBtYWluc3RyZWFtDQppbXBsZW1lbnRhdGlvbiB0aGF0IGJyb2tl Lg0KDQpBbnlvbmUgd2hvIHdhbnRzIHRvIHRyeSBvdGhlciBsYW5ndWFnZXMsIHRoZXJlIGFyZSBp bXBsZW1lbnRhdGlvbnMgbGlzdGVkDQphdCBodHRwOi8vd3d3Lmpzb24ub3JnLy4NCg0KLS0gDQpK b2UgSGlsZGVicmFuZA0KDQoNCg0K From nobody Wed May 21 10:09:14 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC4121A0845 for ; 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Wed, 21 May 2014 19:08:54 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.2\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 19:08:53 +0200 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 422384932.882698-c8eee833b4d29ea8a7ba033830f56a23 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <535EB119.4000908@cisco.com> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E1154581E82F@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> <537BB89E.2040305@cisco.com> <3CA1A8E2-341B-4E09-AC4F-30E427916F1B@vpnc.org> To: "Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.2) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/Fvh8q0STwOPnzMKOFi1iU34AI4s Cc: Nico Williams , Paul Hoffman , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] I-JSON Tpic #2: Top-Level X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 17:09:11 -0000 On 21 May 2014, at 18:46, Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr) = wrote: >=20 > I just tried it with the stock Ruby on an up-to-date Mac, and it still > fails. ... as it should =97 an RFC 4627 implementation that just accepts = non-4627 JSON without some form of special flag is broken. There is a tendency of JSON implementers to accept soup, and that also = includes accepting JSON extensions such as this one without appropriate = permission. (Unfortunately, Ruby=92s default JSON parser currently has only a single = not very well documented toggle called =93quirks_mode=94 that switches = on the 7159 extensions together with a whole lot more questionable = stuff. Can also be activated by using JSON.load() instead of JSON.parse().) Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten From nobody Wed May 21 10:47:31 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 476AB1A0191 for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 10:47:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.152 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.152 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WOW94oGeSEZS for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 10:47:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-3.cisco.com (alln-iport-3.cisco.com [173.37.142.90]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0E2661A0685 for ; 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Wed, 21 May 2014 11:32:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.251 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.251 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mVxf7iwjKBgC for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 11:32:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 43C911A06EB for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 11:32:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1WnBJT-0004r1-KD; Wed, 21 May 2014 14:32:27 -0400 Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 14:32:27 -0400 From: John Cowan To: Carsten Bormann Message-ID: <20140521183227.GC20653@mercury.ccil.org> References: <537A5BE0.3020406@cisco.com> <488AE66E-725D-40B3-9FDA-ADA1018BCF65@tzi.org> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E115461FFE59@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> <20140521020731.GG9283@mercury.ccil.org> <0374DE58-FC77-4CCA-B100-186C1A0701D4@tzi.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <0374DE58-FC77-4CCA-B100-186C1A0701D4@tzi.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Sender: John Cowan Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/YXRNpqynxnOFjnx59j38GxIpUI4 Cc: IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] I-JSON Topic #5: Numbers X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 18:32:32 -0000 Carsten Bormann scripsit: > > as an exact value > > What is your definition of this term here? > > The meaning I’m used to for “exact value” implies you shouldn’t > expect a binary64-based implementation to treat 1.1 as an exact value. There is a binary64 number which differs from 1.1 by less than an ulp, and may be identified with it. This is distinct from the fact that 1.1 + 1.1 + ... + 1.1 (ten times) is not equal to 11. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org Newbies always ask: "Elements or attributes? Which will serve me best?" Those who know roar like lions; Wise hackers smile like tigers. --a tanka, or extended haiku From nobody Wed May 21 11:43:46 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E80331A0691 for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 11:43:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.044 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.044 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FwZ2rv6cnLlD for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 11:43:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a36.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFC0A1A06FE for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 11:43:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a36.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a36.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11DE8778070 for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 11:43:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:cc:content-type; s=cryptonector.com; bh=ecGDHF6oWUnHG917iCOJ KQFxcRY=; b=lkI3EEv3p51bmowlQd08rzuhx8pFwH/ev6U5rm/Q58y+z0WGTb0Z S/u0DgRu38uYg2BpC9VKkqK0FBUmJexbfp3+KPZDqO7c7mw7c4i0eYwEqivyGCGN dIJYiMqxflcHDJG79ruClutU1RWnBdil+iLpURVlwwOiUjk8yjogDts= Received: from mail-wi0-f170.google.com (mail-wi0-f170.google.com [209.85.212.170]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a36.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B5C52778057 for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 11:43:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wi0-f170.google.com with SMTP id bs8so8839596wib.1 for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 11:43:35 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.187.107 with SMTP id fr11mr4013946wjc.70.1400697815365; Wed, 21 May 2014 11:43:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.29.200 with HTTP; Wed, 21 May 2014 11:43:35 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <535EB119.4000908@cisco.com> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E1154581E82F@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> <537BB89E.2040305@cisco.com> <3CA1A8E2-341B-4E09-AC4F-30E427916F1B@vpnc.org> Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 13:43:35 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: "Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/Xx6I2Ntk-APvm-DnlF56q4cPYzo Cc: Paul Hoffman , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] I-JSON Tpic #2: Top-Level X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 18:43:44 -0000 On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 11:46 AM, Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr) wrote: > On 5/21/14, 10:21 AM, "Nico Williams" wrote: > >>I missed them. Where can I find those reports? (what search terms >>might I use?) > > Ruby: > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/json/current/msg00670.html Thanks. And it has no options to accept any type at the top-level either. Bummer. I'm not sure that I care much about this though. The choice to be interoperable with such implementations is arbitrary. If the WG wants that, then restricting the top-level in I-JSON is the right thing to do. Paul asserts that that is what the WG wanted, but Matt's reading of the consensus on this issue implies the opposite. We're not done establishing consensus though. It might help to cast the interop issue in starker terms: interop with RFC4627 implementations with no option to parse all types at the top-level. Nico -- From nobody Wed May 21 11:44:48 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5CB41A070C for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 11:44:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.152 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.152 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Dm3qKp0LpI6V for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 11:44:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-8.cisco.com (alln-iport-8.cisco.com [173.37.142.95]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D494E1A06F2 for ; 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Wed, 21 May 2014 18:44:41 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com ([169.254.15.76]) by xhc-aln-x11.cisco.com ([173.36.12.85]) with mapi id 14.03.0123.003; Wed, 21 May 2014 13:44:41 -0500 From: "Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)" To: Nico Williams Thread-Topic: [Json] I-JSON Tpic #2: Top-Level Thread-Index: AQHPdGi105aJE7T7fEWGVLPUM+Ea0ptKPs8AgAAGkoCAAT3AAIAABNEAgAAEmgD//6JygIAAhSaA//+bvQA= Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 18:44:40 +0000 Message-ID: References: <535EB119.4000908@cisco.com> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E1154581E82F@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> <537BB89E.2040305@cisco.com> <3CA1A8E2-341B-4E09-AC4F-30E427916F1B@vpnc.org> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.4.1.140326 x-originating-ip: [10.129.24.156] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <2E8E5C14EF063E4589452C127A82B6DC@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/DR6yENC_l-NBwQsIgbmJ1NUKZuM Cc: Paul Hoffman , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] I-JSON Tpic #2: Top-Level X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 18:44:45 -0000 T24gNS8yMS8xNCwgMTI6NDMgUE0sICJOaWNvIFdpbGxpYW1zIiA8bmljb0BjcnlwdG9uZWN0b3Iu Y29tPiB3cm90ZToNCg0KPkknbSBub3Qgc3VyZSB0aGF0IEkgY2FyZSBtdWNoIGFib3V0IHRoaXMg dGhvdWdoLiAgVGhlIGNob2ljZSB0byBiZQ0KPmludGVyb3BlcmFibGUgd2l0aCBzdWNoIGltcGxl bWVudGF0aW9ucyBpcyBhcmJpdHJhcnkuICBJZiB0aGUgV0cgd2FudHMNCj50aGF0LCB0aGVuIHJl c3RyaWN0aW5nIHRoZSB0b3AtbGV2ZWwgaW4gSS1KU09OIGlzIHRoZSByaWdodCB0aGluZyB0bw0K PmRvLiAgUGF1bCBhc3NlcnRzIHRoYXQgdGhhdCBpcyB3aGF0IHRoZSBXRyB3YW50ZWQsIGJ1dCBN YXR0J3MgcmVhZGluZw0KPm9mIHRoZSBjb25zZW5zdXMgb24gdGhpcyBpc3N1ZSBpbXBsaWVzIHRo ZSBvcHBvc2l0ZS4gIFdlJ3JlIG5vdCBkb25lDQo+ZXN0YWJsaXNoaW5nIGNvbnNlbnN1cyB0aG91 Z2guICBJdCBtaWdodCBoZWxwIHRvIGNhc3QgdGhlIGludGVyb3ANCj5pc3N1ZSBpbiBzdGFya2Vy IHRlcm1zOiBpbnRlcm9wIHdpdGggUkZDNDYyNyBpbXBsZW1lbnRhdGlvbnMgd2l0aCBubw0KPm9w dGlvbiB0byBwYXJzZSBhbGwgdHlwZXMgYXQgdGhlIHRvcC1sZXZlbC4NCg0KVGhhdCdzIHdoYXQg SSB3YW50Lg0KDQotLSANCkpvZSBIaWxkZWJyYW5kDQoNCg0KDQo= From nobody Wed May 21 12:19:19 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00B721A0830 for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 12:19:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.044 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.044 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XaoBNxaRH_qz for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 12:19:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a34.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A1751A0732 for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 12:19:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a34.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a34.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 786591006E for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 12:19:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:cc:content-type; s=cryptonector.com; bh=fuK39yP29okxtUgmnlSW dKUNVVU=; b=ghOhcjpJVHXw9PKsJiSOaAR5hPfw3rfyBA3cXMuF+hY/fWsAvS++ btKCeyJY597Uw4zzxglEa35uBmyi64CWx1zxKyNbW1LgVddrv3HC+iGsYRzhp8jj kOOfApMjQBydcAtCG9LaH/Pj2APyZFEG+SfZPpq8vikmPS4L6d/TqeI= Received: from mail-oa0-f52.google.com (mail-oa0-f52.google.com [209.85.219.52]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a34.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5C06910062 for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 12:19:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oa0-f52.google.com with SMTP id eb12so2801905oac.11 for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 12:19:11 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.60.41.104 with SMTP id e8mr54643872oel.18.1400699951862; Wed, 21 May 2014 12:19:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.182.234.4 with HTTP; Wed, 21 May 2014 12:19:11 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20140509173159.28855.94523.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 14:19:11 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: Paul Hoffman Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/EXgvtxWNNZb0YV_I0yQYsXQx7R0 Cc: IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] Seeking more input on draft-ietf-json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 19:19:15 -0000 I'll give two ABNFs: JSON-sequence = *(JSON-text LF) LF = JSON-text = and, JSON-sequence = *ws *(value text-sep *ws) text-sep = *(SP / HTAB / CR) LF ; these are from RFC5234 ws = value = The latter being the alternative to the first for dealing with ABNF greediness. Greediness is not specified in RFC5234 NAICT. Nor do we speak of which rules are "exported"/"imported" by "modules". I think this is good enough. I doubt anyone will ever use ABNF tooling to produce a JSON text sequence parser. Two alternative formulations + prose should be sufficient, if not excessive. For the resync ABNF I'll give this: boundary = endchar text-sep *ws startchar text-sep = *(SP / HTAB / CR) LF ; these are from RFC5234 endchar = ( "}" / "]" / DQUOTE / "e" / "l" / DIGIT ) startchar = ( "{" / "[" / DQUOTE / "t" / "f" / "n" / "-" / DIGIT ) Nico -- From nobody Wed May 21 15:01:29 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A50FF1A03BC for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 15:01:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.044 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.044 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zA75KlNy_hBl for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 15:01:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a88.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0ED471A0389 for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 15:01:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a88.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a88.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF7DF26405D for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 15:01:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:cc:content-type; s=cryptonector.com; bh=eKa2TQVWphAP6W/UnnOe 9ki10kI=; b=sCXbumVOEWdpvGRxWf4frZE1t+YiqERaKfbMiEjdpHvCnSdTgB3h rRMv/+0GNQkw5YQEwz9Tuik/cPk2yYidLxj9gA0r7Ei1jfHzenP8YP1cXV0GUPMo PWw5KbWyR5LGC6KeaS59fs+lL4+sszXyhpB7Rej/3umlxhSQOfgOvyQ= Received: from mail-wi0-f170.google.com (mail-wi0-f170.google.com [209.85.212.170]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a88.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A1203264059 for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 15:01:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wi0-f170.google.com with SMTP id bs8so9038815wib.5 for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 15:01:25 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.185.244 with SMTP id ff20mr12817801wic.42.1400709685598; Wed, 21 May 2014 15:01:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.29.200 with HTTP; Wed, 21 May 2014 15:01:25 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <535EB119.4000908@cisco.com> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E1154581E82F@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> <537BB89E.2040305@cisco.com> <3CA1A8E2-341B-4E09-AC4F-30E427916F1B@vpnc.org> Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 17:01:25 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: "Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/CrS25pVhF_tCXpTG_jJ3UbKHP04 Cc: Paul Hoffman , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] I-JSON Tpic #2: Top-Level X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 22:01:28 -0000 On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 1:44 PM, Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr) wrote: > On 5/21/14, 12:43 PM, "Nico Williams" wrote: > >>I'm not sure that I care much about this though. The choice to be >>interoperable with such implementations is arbitrary. If the WG wants >>that, then restricting the top-level in I-JSON is the right thing to >>do. Paul asserts that that is what the WG wanted, but Matt's reading >>of the consensus on this issue implies the opposite. We're not done >>establishing consensus though. It might help to cast the interop >>issue in starker terms: interop with RFC4627 implementations with no >>option to parse all types at the top-level. > > That's what I want. I have no position on that issue. IF that was not a WG goal, then I'd much prefer to not impose any top-level type restrictions. My position is therefore neutral on this. From nobody Wed May 21 15:47:29 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2184E1A04D2 for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 15:47:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.278 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.278 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id w7Myihw8x4sa for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 15:47:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x22c.google.com (mail-wi0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c05::22c]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F33291A0407 for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 15:47:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wi0-f172.google.com with SMTP id hi2so8386530wib.17 for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 15:47:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=cz0iQaf1/3JHvWXJ/8mqx/oiRT803jntvBrakYDMPfU=; b=pOuHYqsUTZOHZ768qH47Un9eiW7Sq/wbgUHJYZIQZXRD2Gu1CRDthRGHMSO9Lzr81/ StHWTEV7XXAPTLKEyqmbyVitHWqdphogCP7LhQSAmA5mPqpfWQvrzm41EPNpELnO+baI bdl4mUT2Ska8MSSrBsZasqf2DljAz11D9NRc++lt0RtO8CWD2dc5UakYuhQ9wfT4h7X5 JOgLEuYRXSYN+yNGP5n5F4C82HxHyZRA0zLWO/srIhcACfEBdjASCbGMJms+EUfNje9T Z+wp83sw9LLJprqCma1Y7rTATeUQJ7dclq0a45s0XNKGSOlDnfR0hS5H3R97KfSinTv9 gSgA== X-Received: by 10.194.58.79 with SMTP id o15mr19787778wjq.62.1400712442947; Wed, 21 May 2014 15:47:22 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: cromis@gmail.com Received: by 10.217.141.203 with HTTP; Wed, 21 May 2014 15:47:02 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <535EB119.4000908@cisco.com> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E1154581E82F@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> <537BB89E.2040305@cisco.com> <3CA1A8E2-341B-4E09-AC4F-30E427916F1B@vpnc.org> From: Jacob Davies Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 15:47:02 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: MZjUsnjW3gRJsObAp9Ykgw7oxHw Message-ID: To: "Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/PxmzI3Ir8P7wdOhKl88IVM5r6b0 Cc: Nico Williams , Paul Hoffman , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] I-JSON Tpic #2: Top-Level X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 22:47:26 -0000 On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 11:44 AM, Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr) wrote: >>issue in starker terms: interop with RFC4627 implementations with no >>option to parse all types at the top-level. > > That's what I want. I have to ask again: why? The other issues mentioned in I-JSON are subtle interoperability problems that could trip people up unless they take care to use a compliant parser/encoder. In fact, they certainly will trip people up if they do not carefully choose a good library, which means not picking any old RFC4267 library, because there are lots of extant libraries that allow the precise constructs that I-JSON mentions. For instance, there are multiple JSON libraries - including the Java json.org library - that encode Java longs as JSON numbers, which is exactly the kind of problem I-JSON is concerned with, since Javascript cannot correctly deserialize these values, a problem that has led to numerous prominent bugs whose fix (replacing numbers with strings) was not backwards-compatible. The point about subtle problems is that they can go unnoticed for a long time and the cost of fixing them is large. These kinds of problems are what I-JSON intends to address, but to use I-JSON effectively means either: 1. Using an pre-existing JSON library that is already pretty-well compatible with the I-JSON requirements (for instance, Javascript's JSON.parse()). This does NOT include many - perhaps even most - existing JSON libraries. In my experience with the Java libraries, most of them fail on at least one of number range, duplicate keys, and non-characters. Yet almost all of them handle top-level values of any type just fine (I believe the json.org code does not). or 2. Writing new libraries that are fully compliant with I-JSON, in which case the point about existing libraries is irrelevant. I have never heard of any interoperability problems caused by top-level values of non-object types and I find it hard to imagine it would be a real concern, since agreement on the types to be sent and received is hard to avoid upfront and grossly obvious when it occurs. In the cases where a top-level primitive or array is desirable, it will be pretty clear why that is the case (most importantly, selecting part of a composite object). This restriction was widely ignored since it never existed in Javascript in the first place; eval() and JSON.parse() have always accepted all Javascript literal values anyway. Most people just did what JS did and accepted them too. That there exist some libraries that enforce it is not actually evidence that it matters to I-JSON, since most of those libraries probably fail the other I-JSON tests and will need rewriting to comply with its requirements. The restriction to objects and arrays at the top level was a clever hack to avoid using any out-of-band information to distinguish between UTF variants at a time when UTF-8 had not taken over the world. It was obsolete a long time ago. Replicating it in recommended guidance for using JSON in modern applications just seems very odd to me (and the original rationale for distinguishing UTF variant doesn't even exist in I-JSON since UTF-8 is required). From nobody Wed May 21 16:59:22 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73D171A06B2 for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 16:59:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.346 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.346 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9aGR_D7DVTFm for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 16:59:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hoffman.proper.com (IPv6.Hoffman.Proper.COM [IPv6:2605:8e00:100:41::81]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5D2FA1A06B1 for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 16:59:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.20.30.90] (50-1-51-90.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com [50.1.51.90]) (authenticated bits=0) by hoffman.proper.com (8.14.8/8.14.7) with ESMTP id s4LNxGge058106 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 16:59:17 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: hoffman.proper.com: Host 50-1-51-90.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com [50.1.51.90] claimed to be [10.20.30.90] From: Paul Hoffman Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_2D1F34A2-3B75-4DF4-91D6-C83F254EC677" Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 16:59:16 -0700 References: To: IETF JSON WG Message-Id: <199CCD59-A98E-4B81-A1C1-959A8F3B516A@vpnc.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.2\)) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.2) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/tXFggkzNXqshuSD1umfdPD7vrdc Subject: [Json] Fwd: [apps-discuss] draft-ietf-appsawg-json-merge-patch X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 21 May 2014 23:59:21 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_2D1F34A2-3B75-4DF4-91D6-C83F254EC677 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii =46rom the Apps Area mailing list: Begin forwarded message: > From: "Murray S. Kucherawy" > Subject: [apps-discuss] draft-ietf-appsawg-json-merge-patch > Date: May 21, 2014 at 4:07:31 PM PDT > To: IETF Apps Discuss >=20 > Colleagues, >=20 > The above draft is in "Parked" state and is in need of new = authors/editors to carry it through to completion. We put out a call = for this after the London meeting, and there were a few inquiries about = what's involved but no commitment to pick up the torch and run with it. >=20 > The draft expires tomorrow. Do we have any takers? Last call... >=20 > -MSK > _______________________________________________ > apps-discuss mailing list > apps-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss --Apple-Mail=_2D1F34A2-3B75-4DF4-91D6-C83F254EC677 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii =46rom = the Apps Area mailing list:

Begin forwarded = message:

From: = "Murray S. = Kucherawy" <superuser@gmail.com>
=
Subject: [apps-discuss] = draft-ietf-appsawg-json-merge-patch
Date: May 21, 2014 at 4:07:31 PM = PDT
To: = IETF Apps Discuss = <apps-discuss@ietf.org>

Colleagues,

The = above draft is in "Parked" state and is in need of new authors/editors = to carry it through to completion.  We put out a call for this = after the London meeting, and there were a few inquiries about what's = involved but no commitment to pick up the torch and run with it.

The draft expires tomorrow.  Do we have any takers?  Last = call...

-MSK
_______________________________________________
apps-discuss mailing = list
apps-discuss@ietf.org
https:/= /www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss
= --Apple-Mail=_2D1F34A2-3B75-4DF4-91D6-C83F254EC677-- From nobody Wed May 21 17:45:41 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79F971A000B for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 17:45:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.202 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.202 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_AU=0.377, HOST_EQ_AU=0.327, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RELAY_IS_203=0.994] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ytgcIw9PFSl3 for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 17:45:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ipxavo.tcif.telstra.com.au (ipxavo.tcif.telstra.com.au [203.35.135.200]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1A361A0007 for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 17:45:37 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.98,883,1392123600"; d="scan'208";a="201117190" Received: from unknown (HELO ipccvi.tcif.telstra.com.au) ([10.97.217.208]) by ipoavi.tcif.telstra.com.au with ESMTP; 22 May 2014 10:45:36 +1000 X-IronPort-AV: E=McAfee;i="5600,1067,7445"; a="223722826" Received: from wsmsg3752.srv.dir.telstra.com ([172.49.40.173]) by ipccvi.tcif.telstra.com.au with ESMTP; 22 May 2014 10:45:35 +1000 Received: from WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com ([172.49.40.159]) by WSMSG3752.srv.dir.telstra.com ([172.49.40.173]) with mapi; Thu, 22 May 2014 10:45:35 +1000 From: "Manger, James" To: "Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)" , John Cowan Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 10:45:33 +1000 Thread-Topic: [Json] I-JSON Topic #5: Numbers Thread-Index: AQHPYxzPc1qOL3zAFk6QxZ1T0YrJO5snzN0A//+jtwCAAGnvgIAEImEAgBzCVgD//8VpAIAAc5kAgADXt4CAAHQ7oIAAfEKAgABzMQCAAJ9K8A== Message-ID: <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E1154629E87D@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> References: <535EB3BF.8080606@cisco.com> <537A5BE0.3020406@cisco.com> <488AE66E-725D-40B3-9FDA-ADA1018BCF65@tzi.org> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E115461FFE59@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> <20140521020731.GG9283@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US, en-AU Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US, en-AU Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/FYB6PvrHNyaQezEni4tclU0CJgE Cc: Carsten Bormann , IETF JSON WG , "Matt Miller \(mamille2\)" Subject: Re: [Json] I-JSON Topic #5: Numbers X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 00:45:39 -0000 PiJBbiBJLUpTT04gc2VuZGVyIE1VU1QgTk9UIGV4cGVjdCBhIHJlY2VpdmVyIHRvIHRyZWF0IGEg bm9uLXplcm8gbnVtYmVyDQo+d2hvc2UgYWJzb2x1dGUgdmFsdWUgaXMgZ3JlYXRlciB0aGFuIDFl MzA4IG9yIGxlc3MgdGhhbiAxZS0zMDgNCj5hcyBhbiBleGFjdCB2YWx1ZS4NCg0KVGhpcyBpcyB3 cm9uZyAoaW4gaXRzIGltcGxpY2F0aW9uIHRoYXQgb3RoZXIgbnVtYmVycyBhcmUgZXhhY3QpLg0K TmVpdGhlciBJLUpTT04gbm9yIEpTT04gcmVxdWlyZXMgbnVtYmVycyB0byBiZSBoZWxkIGludGVy bmFsbHkgYXMgYSBkb3VibGUuIEktSlNPTiBzaW1wbHkgcmVjb2duaXplcyB0aGF0IGRvdWJsZXMg YXJlIGNvbW1vbiBzbyB5b3UgY2FuIGV4cGVjdCBhdCBsZWFzdCB0aGUgcHJlY2lzaW9uICYgcmFu Z2Ugb2YgYSBkb3VibGUuIFlvdSBjYW5ub3QgZXhwZWN0IHZhbHVlcyBiZXR3ZWVuIDFlLTMwOCBh bmQgMWUzMDggdG8gYmUgdHJlYXRlZCBleGFjdGx5LiBPbmUgcmVjZWl2ZXIgbWlnaHQgcm91bmQg aXQgdG8gdGhlIG5lYXJlc3QgZG91YmxlLCBhbm90aGVyIG1pZ2h0IHVzZSBhIEJpZ0RlY2ltYWwg Y2xhc3MgKHRyZWF0aW5nIGl0IGV4YWN0bHkpLiBUaGUgbm9uLWV4YWN0bmVzcyBkb2Vzbid0IGNo YW5nZSBhYnJ1cHRseSBhdCAxZTMwOCBvciAxZS0zMDggZWl0aGVyLg0KDQotLQ0KSmFtZXMgTWFu Z2VyDQoNCg== From nobody Wed May 21 22:21:48 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3CB41A00BE for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 22:21:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.202 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.202 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_AU=0.377, HOST_EQ_AU=0.327, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RELAY_IS_203=0.994] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id siUCBN33FU6R for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 22:21:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ipxano.tcif.telstra.com.au (ipxano.tcif.telstra.com.au [203.35.82.200]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 210631A004D for ; Wed, 21 May 2014 22:21:41 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.98,885,1392123600"; d="scan'208";a="204006444" Received: from unknown (HELO ipccni.tcif.telstra.com.au) ([10.97.216.208]) by ipoani.tcif.telstra.com.au with ESMTP; 22 May 2014 15:21:38 +1000 X-IronPort-AV: E=McAfee;i="5600,1067,7445"; a="234228879" Received: from wsmsg3704.srv.dir.telstra.com ([172.49.40.197]) by ipccni.tcif.telstra.com.au with ESMTP; 22 May 2014 15:21:39 +1000 Received: from WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com ([172.49.40.159]) by WSMSG3704.srv.dir.telstra.com ([172.49.40.197]) with mapi; Thu, 22 May 2014 15:21:38 +1000 From: "Manger, James" To: Nico Williams , Paul Hoffman Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 15:21:37 +1000 Thread-Topic: [Json] Seeking more input on draft-ietf-json-text-sequence Thread-Index: Ac91KZILu29unWSlRzSbSyVhaahQOwAUJKSA Message-ID: <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E1154629EDF8@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> References: <20140509173159.28855.94523.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US, en-AU Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US, en-AU Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/q9AQtjLkSchx4__2fo54zoXew0g Cc: IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] Seeking more input on draft-ietf-json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 05:21:44 -0000 PiAgSlNPTi1zZXF1ZW5jZSA9ICooSlNPTi10ZXh0IExGKQ0KDQpObywgYmVjYXVzZSB0aGF0IG1l YW5zIGEgcGF5bG9hZCBvZiwgc2F5LCAyIG5ld2xpbmVzIGlzIGludmFsaWQuIEl0IHNob3VsZCBi ZSBhIHZhbGlkIHNlcXVlbmNlIG9mIDAgSlNPTiBpdGVtcy4gSXQgaXMgdG9vIGVhc3kgdG8gZ2V0 IHN0cmF5IG5ld2xpbmVzIHRvIHJlamVjdCB0aGVtLg0KDQo+ICBKU09OLXNlcXVlbmNlID0gKndz ICoodmFsdWUgdGV4dC1zZXAgKndzKQ0KPiAgdGV4dC1zZXAgPSAqKFNQIC8gSFRBQiAvIENSKSBM RiA7IHRoZXNlIGFyZSBmcm9tIFJGQzUyMzQNCj4gIHdzID0gPGdpdmVuIGJ5IFJGQzcxNTk+DQo+ ICB2YWx1ZSA9IDxnaXZlbiBieSBSRkM3MTU5Pg0KDQpUaGlzIHN0aWxsIGRvZXMgbm90IGRlYWwg d2l0aCBncmVlZHkgcGFyc2VycyBhcyA8dmFsdWU+IGluY2x1ZGVzIGxlYWRpbmcgYW5kIHRyYWls aW5nIG9wdGlvbmFsIHdoaXRlc3BhY2UgZm9yIG9iamVjdHMgYW5kIGFycmF5cyAoYnV0IG5vdCBm b3IgcHJpbWl0aXZlcykuDQoNCkFjY2VwdGFibGUgdmVyc2lvbnM6DQoNCiAgSlNPTi1zZXF1ZW5j ZSA9ICooSlNPTi10ZXh0IExGKSB3cw0Kb3INCiAgSlNPTi1zZXF1ZW5jZSA9IHdzICooSlNPTi10 ZXh0IHdzIExGIHdzKQ0KDQp3aXRoDQogIHdzID0gPGdpdmVuIGJ5IFJGQzcxNTk+IDsgb3B0aW9u YWwgd2hpdGVzcGFjZQ0KICBKU09OLXRleHQgPSA8Z2l2ZW4gYnkgUkZDNzE1OT4NCiAgTEYgPSA8 Z2l2ZW4gYnkgUkZDNTIzND4gOyBsaW5lZmVlZCAleDBBDQoNCi0tDQpKYW1lcyBNYW5nZXINCg== From nobody Thu May 22 08:48:29 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A14751A0178 for ; Thu, 22 May 2014 08:48:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ex5NGPuII-0H for ; Thu, 22 May 2014 08:48:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vc0-f173.google.com (mail-vc0-f173.google.com [209.85.220.173]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CF1961A01DD for ; Thu, 22 May 2014 08:48:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vc0-f173.google.com with SMTP id il7so4678894vcb.18 for ; Thu, 22 May 2014 08:48:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=PDbPhJgFNJsS+itYTg2/GGRx8wsiflfWH4mZIDxSg0k=; b=PRBHbHmb6TXbZEomAqtNJlJaVYSsdtH3AcGdeZedM3NhXx0pplxvIZNJ6MyLQPeqQt AK8Q15hSso/E7HRJ1uQJH7+SvG4CvfmMttZKz9M/WtoMAfJ9hgsZqCxzLEUbZHlFHLhs Lf7yYeoxkAdgyxwGCK/KAIeJ5MXQN9Rq6E0GKJ2gzflpr0EGipFuZDMyX/GUHx80RRvB f5V4CRjevhirCKhKLUe6iBMEchYOUJtfP6Wa2ZdaH7fdaF0k7rTbR8kcCs++P0i9hGyU bOeZ4ijrYKbjexCps1gI9zJxQcacvu2/EB9flawZPu/mXSHz2wmCRSSuQaulW0bCUHt5 veyw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnytPoRzmNb/dhvi+/J1FMr5Y9/+M2UrHLhqMVqEzbAILjMQWqEO5En+dC3SkeZkV/l3YCe X-Received: by 10.58.39.129 with SMTP id p1mr975678vek.69.1400773691891; Thu, 22 May 2014 08:48:11 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.98.73 with HTTP; Thu, 22 May 2014 08:47:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [65.114.90.17] In-Reply-To: <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E1154629E87D@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> References: <535EB3BF.8080606@cisco.com> <537A5BE0.3020406@cisco.com> <488AE66E-725D-40B3-9FDA-ADA1018BCF65@tzi.org> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E115461FFE59@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> <20140521020731.GG9283@mercury.ccil.org> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E1154629E87D@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> From: Tim Bray Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 10:47:51 -0500 Message-ID: To: "Manger, James" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e013cc4a450fa0e04f9ff0afd Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/NbLxZ4sjDCPPNLvaeVEzL4h6I7E Cc: Carsten Bormann , "Matt Miller \(mamille2\)" , John Cowan , "Joe Hildebrand \(jhildebr\)" , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] I-JSON Topic #5: Numbers X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 15:48:19 -0000 --089e013cc4a450fa0e04f9ff0afd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =E2=80=8BSince I don=E2=80=99t pretend to much expertise in the finer point= s of numeric representation, let me play referee. I draw your attention to http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bray-i-json-01#section-2.2 which is what we=E2=80=99re trying to improve here. - I think the second para, saying =E2=80=9CUse strings if your numbers are = too big/precise=E2=80=9D, is uncontroversial. - I think the current first paragraph is also reasonably OK in the sense that what it says is in fact correct. - There is also a substantial body of knowledge around the number-wrangling facts such as that there are lots of nice simple short decimally-expressed numbers that are not going to round-trip. - Also, the language in RFC7159 makes useful points such as what range of integers will successfully round-trip and it is effectively included by reference. My take-away is that leaving the text as in i-json-01 would not be terrible. On re-reading this thread, I=E2=80=99m not sure I see any single suggestion for expanding that text that someone else hasn=E2=80=99t success= fully nit-picked, except for John=E2=80=99s "An I-JSON sender MUST NOT expect a receiver to treat a non-zero number whose absolute value is greater than 1e308 or less than 1e-308 as an exact value. Furthermore, an I-JSON sender MUST NOT expect a receiver to treat an integer whose absolute value is greater than 9007199254740992 as an exact value." And I'm not even sure that really adds much value. If we start enumerating all the gotchas that can getcha when you=E2=80=99re converting textual and = binary representations of numeric quantities back and forth, this is gonna be a big long text. On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 7:45 PM, Manger, James < James.H.Manger@team.telstra.com> wrote: > >"An I-JSON sender MUST NOT expect a receiver to treat a non-zero number > >whose absolute value is greater than 1e308 or less than 1e-308 > >as an exact value. > > This is wrong (in its implication that other numbers are exact). > Neither I-JSON nor JSON requires numbers to be held internally as a > double. I-JSON simply recognizes that doubles are common so you can expec= t > at least the precision & range of a double. You cannot expect values > between 1e-308 and 1e308 to be treated exactly. One receiver might round = it > to the nearest double, another might use a BigDecimal class (treating it > exactly). The non-exactness doesn't change abruptly at 1e308 or 1e-308 > either. > > -- > James Manger > > _______________________________________________ > json mailing list > json@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json > --=20 - Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a private message, see https://keybase.io/timbray) --089e013cc4a450fa0e04f9ff0afd Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=E2= =80=8BSince I don=E2=80=99t pretend to much expertise in the finer points o= f numeric representation, let me play referee. =C2=A0I draw your attention = to = http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bray-i-json-01#section-2.2 which is wh= at we=E2=80=99re trying to improve here. =C2=A0
- I think the second= para, saying =E2=80=9CUse strings if your numbers are too big/precise=E2= =80=9D, is uncontroversial. =C2=A0
- I think the current first paragraph is also reasonab= ly OK in the sense that what it says is in fact correct. =C2=A0
- There is also a su= bstantial body of knowledge around the number-wrangling facts such as that = there are lots of nice simple short decimally-expressed numbers that are no= t going to round-trip. =C2=A0
- Also, the language= in RFC7159 makes useful points such as what range of integers will success= fully round-trip and it is effectively included by reference.

My take-aw= ay is that leaving the text as in i-json-01 would not be terrible. =C2=A0On= re-reading this thread, I=E2=80=99m not sure I see any single suggestion f= or expanding that text that someone else hasn=E2=80=99t successfully nit-pi= cked, except for John=E2=80=99s

"An I-JSON sender MUST NOT expect a rece= iver to treat a non-zero number
whose absolute = value is greater than 1e308 or less than 1e-308
as an exact value. =C2=A0Furthermore, an I-JSON sende= r MUST NOT expect a
receiver to tre= at an integer whose absolute value is greater than
9007199254740992 as an exact value."

And I'm not even sure that really adds mu= ch value. =C2=A0If we start enumerating all the gotchas that can getcha whe= n you=E2=80=99re converting textual and binary representations of numeric q= uantities back and forth, this is gonna be a big long text.


On Wed,= May 21, 2014 at 7:45 PM, Manger, James <James.H.Manger@team= .telstra.com> wrote:
>"An I-JSON sender M= UST NOT expect a receiver to treat a non-zero number
>whose absolute value is greater than 1e308 or less than 1e-308
>as an exact value.

This is wrong (in its implication that other numbers are exact).
Neither I-JSON nor JSON requires numbers to be held internally as a double.= I-JSON simply recognizes that doubles are common so you can expect at leas= t the precision & range of a double. You cannot expect values between 1= e-308 and 1e308 to be treated exactly. One receiver might round it to the n= earest double, another might use a BigDecimal class (treating it exactly). = The non-exactness doesn't change abruptly at 1e308 or 1e-308 either.
--
James Manger

_______________________________________________
json mailing list
json@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json



--
=
- Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a privat= e message, see htt= ps://keybase.io/timbray)
--089e013cc4a450fa0e04f9ff0afd-- From nobody Thu May 22 09:15:27 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE4111A01ED for ; Thu, 22 May 2014 09:15:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.044 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.044 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yunpSGP7aLbk for ; Thu, 22 May 2014 09:15:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a24.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33C2A1A022A for ; Thu, 22 May 2014 09:15:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a24.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a24.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0DE92C808D for ; Thu, 22 May 2014 09:15:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:cc:content-type; s=cryptonector.com; bh=06pb94Uvq6XUJwP3rA4l CUOLM3Y=; b=iqk04arzuoEM0RZhoH5QTVW0Qc8KeVWIMVZSEQQMnYLiPTyBBqmf ewH+c6/nJ40sSKsrcofK0P7PUW1axnokz1pKUE2yiWxUWzHl6XuEp5Z8Bf8npZUO UaL/HxOqAH2mZGhjTk8Y159OBB7BxuXvyBmn4g2i+rV8NBaCN4IOdVk= Received: from mail-wg0-f52.google.com (mail-wg0-f52.google.com [74.125.82.52]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a24.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7CAF02C8089 for ; Thu, 22 May 2014 09:15:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wg0-f52.google.com with SMTP id l18so3663884wgh.35 for ; Thu, 22 May 2014 09:14:59 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.185.244 with SMTP id ff20mr17383062wic.42.1400775299160; Thu, 22 May 2014 09:14:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.29.200 with HTTP; Thu, 22 May 2014 09:14:59 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <535EB3BF.8080606@cisco.com> <537A5BE0.3020406@cisco.com> <488AE66E-725D-40B3-9FDA-ADA1018BCF65@tzi.org> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E115461FFE59@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> <20140521020731.GG9283@mercury.ccil.org> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E1154629E87D@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 11:14:59 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: Tim Bray Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/UBquzgNRgaZJ8KI0ftAowY5bCTM Cc: IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] I-JSON Topic #5: Numbers X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 16:15:24 -0000 My proposal is to reference IEEE 754 and perhaps have some informative references to various web pages detailing the limitations of IEEE 754 doubles. Then state that any numbers which cannot be represented -by JSON implementations that use IEEE 754 doubles- with sufficient precision/accuracy/fidelity SHOULD NOT (MUST NOT?) be sent as JSON numbers. Alternatively, find a suitable external, informative reference to the limitations of IEEE 754, get permission to copy its text, then paste it in. Or, if IEEE 754 covers these issues in sufficient detail, then just normatively reference IEEE 754 and call it a day. If IEEE 754 does not cover these issues in sufficient detail then we probably could do with a generic RFC on the matter... Nico -- From nobody Thu May 22 10:23:04 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70BDE1A0226 for ; Thu, 22 May 2014 10:23:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.044 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.044 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cEYdGzuAYE3U for ; Thu, 22 May 2014 10:23:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a64.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 240901A0236 for ; Thu, 22 May 2014 10:23:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a64.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a64.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFD1D438080 for ; Thu, 22 May 2014 10:22:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:cc:content-type; s=cryptonector.com; bh=YTkuSTGBj3rtZFDeBenk +Ukp/Q0=; b=HqIutqroAwSlvmmwXdH0Q4ZvhmkET18CT18myja4Z/8WnH+SAJY6 wQJCQeCRSZB+TX/dcBHAdpQL5ttv3+w4ZlHLN7PFhtvLXLkX5Fv8S1/leqMUrD1S DolXAXomcBEZ9JPEm2KU5e7pdbtfpanONynj93S4018Xzu+wETbW+b8= Received: from mail-we0-f179.google.com (mail-we0-f179.google.com [74.125.82.179]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a64.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6FE3C43807F for ; Thu, 22 May 2014 10:22:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-we0-f179.google.com with SMTP id q59so3805360wes.10 for ; Thu, 22 May 2014 10:22:57 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.186.8 with SMTP id fg8mr17581356wic.39.1400779377936; Thu, 22 May 2014 10:22:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.29.200 with HTTP; Thu, 22 May 2014 10:22:57 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E1154629EDF8@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> References: <20140509173159.28855.94523.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E1154629EDF8@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 12:22:57 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: "Manger, James" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/h3hnhf8VUWsVIUhykDvNsV9XFD0 Cc: Paul Hoffman , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] Seeking more input on draft-ietf-json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 17:23:02 -0000 On Thu, May 22, 2014 at 12:21 AM, Manger, James wrote: >> JSON-sequence = *(JSON-text LF) > > No, because that means a payload of, say, 2 newlines is invalid. It should be a valid sequence of 0 JSON items. It is too easy to get stray newlines to reject them. Good catch. >> JSON-sequence = *ws *(value text-sep *ws) >> text-sep = *(SP / HTAB / CR) LF ; these are from RFC5234 >> ws = >> value = > > This still does not deal with greedy parsers as includes leading and trailing optional whitespace for objects and arrays (but not for primitives). Ah, yes, because begin-* and end-* have ws. Oh well, then I give up on the greedy matching issue. > Acceptable versions: > > JSON-sequence = *(JSON-text LF) ws > or > JSON-sequence = ws *(JSON-text ws LF ws) > > with > ws = ; optional whitespace > JSON-text = > LF = ; linefeed %x0A I'll take the second. Thanks! Nico -- From nobody Thu May 22 13:12:30 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBF3B1A0383; Thu, 22 May 2014 13:12:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2CUNC8o7jO4N; Thu, 22 May 2014 13:12:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FC4F1A0395; Thu, 22 May 2014 13:11:36 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 5.4.2.p3 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20140522201136.25128.74106.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 13:11:36 -0700 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/VH1sY7kd_-XSMsr2N6L8W9n55Es Cc: json@ietf.org Subject: [Json] I-D Action: draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-03.txt X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 20:12:27 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the JavaScript Object Notation Working Group of the IETF. Title : JavaScript Object Notation (JSON) Text Sequences Author : Nicolas Williams Filename : draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-03.txt Pages : 10 Date : 2014-05-22 Abstract: This document describes the JSON text sequence format and associated media type. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-json-text-sequence/ There's also a htmlized version available at: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-03 A diff from the previous version is available at: http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-03 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Thu May 22 13:27:00 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5B021A0271 for ; Thu, 22 May 2014 13:26:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.044 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.044 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6EMg-axbzPSa for ; Thu, 22 May 2014 13:26:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a108.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38A621A026A for ; Thu, 22 May 2014 13:26:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a108.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a108.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1096820078721 for ; Thu, 22 May 2014 13:26:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; s= cryptonector.com; bh=3rJ0iIiL/UenUapU5BsyfKU/kJc=; b=DLy7GNF+xma k+xxpQag0PIlm6lIUK9nzhqAqMYGt9wESIF30JAjFKE/thrWvkIztETXeADdlkNz BGzN8KL7Qa2tTtVX03cSpIUHt4HA/rCTg5DThL7INxfKBnTQChA9H9+QZhMaL4b+ leOc2dCMwC85v8ohdNhoVzA5L3GIugLw= Received: from mail-we0-f181.google.com (mail-we0-f181.google.com [74.125.82.181]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a108.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B7F5D2007871C for ; Thu, 22 May 2014 13:26:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-we0-f181.google.com with SMTP id w61so3885911wes.26 for ; Thu, 22 May 2014 13:26:55 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.120.68 with SMTP id la4mr114830wjb.40.1400790415712; Thu, 22 May 2014 13:26:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.29.200 with HTTP; Thu, 22 May 2014 13:26:55 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 15:26:55 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: "json@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/bFiEhRgK4blnMHMlZjRIZ9bDzvI Subject: [Json] JSON text sequence -03 posted X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 20:26:59 -0000 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Date: Thu, May 22, 2014 at 3:11 PM Subject: New Version Notification - draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-03.txt To: json-chairs@tools.ietf.org, draft-ietf-json-text-sequence@tools.ietf.org, presnick@qti.qualcomm.com A new version (-03) has been submitted for draft-ietf-json-text-sequence: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-03.txt The IETF datatracker page for this Internet-Draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-json-text-sequence/ Diff from previous version: http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-03 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. IETF Secretariat. From nobody Thu May 22 14:00:48 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B4D11A034D for ; Thu, 22 May 2014 14:00:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.347 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.347 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tSF1KDYRTFZC for ; Thu, 22 May 2014 14:00:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hoffman.proper.com (IPv6.Hoffman.Proper.COM [IPv6:2605:8e00:100:41::81]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 39AD61A02A9 for ; Thu, 22 May 2014 14:00:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.20.30.90] (50-1-51-90.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com [50.1.51.90]) (authenticated bits=0) by hoffman.proper.com (8.14.8/8.14.7) with ESMTP id s4ML0hGs006408 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 22 May 2014 14:00:44 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: hoffman.proper.com: Host 50-1-51-90.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com [50.1.51.90] claimed to be [10.20.30.90] From: Paul Hoffman Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 14:00:42 -0700 To: IETF JSON WG Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.2\)) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.2) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/z6xtRoyV0wGi1wktUnBucVB5pSc Subject: [Json] Working Group Last Call on draft-ietf-json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 21:00:47 -0000 This begins a two-week Working Group Last Call on = draft-ietf-json-text-sequence = . We are = seeking any and all comments on the document in order to assess the = strength of consensus for it. If you are on this mailing list and have = not yet read the document, please do so now, and then comment on the = list. If you have already read the draft and commented, please feel free = to do so again. As a reminder, comments can be anywhere in the continuum of "looks fine" = to "terrible idea"; they can include questions; they can include = suggestions for singificant editorial changes; they can include minor = editorial notes. --Matt Miller and Paul Hoffman= From nobody Thu May 22 14:30:26 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73DD91A036D for ; Thu, 22 May 2014 14:30:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.044 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.044 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id smPZ8JL66dJr for ; Thu, 22 May 2014 14:30:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a16.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F07FF1A0283 for ; Thu, 22 May 2014 14:30:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a16.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a16.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF222508084 for ; Thu, 22 May 2014 14:30:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:cc:content-type; s=cryptonector.com; bh=csUtAVkIDWIcoZZXae+/ OU5K+og=; b=Q8K7Nw01jk8QOLwE8tfQm1rHiErzUfmBVBQYuySjaQkBw/mE5TyH IyEXyRPJeCqG4L3v7GzmGkJbJL++D1JwkUpi5rUnZIR5qn/w7NOYDVWXQq6K00XL HzMlhx9zrZrGa2NjRoIR10+5P6ABBpKe7TWKKf3KecD7ViYwaxM1Plc= Received: from mail-wg0-f45.google.com (mail-wg0-f45.google.com [74.125.82.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a16.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 718C1508064 for ; Thu, 22 May 2014 14:30:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wg0-f45.google.com with SMTP id m15so3910151wgh.28 for ; Thu, 22 May 2014 14:30:22 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.12.135 with SMTP id y7mr896010wib.39.1400794222335; Thu, 22 May 2014 14:30:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.29.200 with HTTP; Thu, 22 May 2014 14:30:22 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 16:30:22 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: Paul Hoffman Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/z9z4jU7S3mhyqAR-iDuxln8LQFY Cc: IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] Working Group Last Call on draft-ietf-json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 21:30:25 -0000 I should probably add more text to the acknowledgements section. The community's input has made a huge difference. Thanks, Nico -- From nobody Thu May 22 16:24:29 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 942AE1A024B for ; Thu, 22 May 2014 16:24:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3dB-BAHmuD7X for ; Thu, 22 May 2014 16:24:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vc0-f175.google.com (mail-vc0-f175.google.com [209.85.220.175]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1A4211A0248 for ; Thu, 22 May 2014 16:24:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vc0-f175.google.com with SMTP id id10so1943383vcb.20 for ; Thu, 22 May 2014 16:24:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=th+FiwTVVxPl+k7XYsS+hgTwyiBOR5Qi71C2nBHVQ7M=; b=LeJIzdV3rZiyjKYRuHJFhhcIMnrnHVvFM+YDxh3OPfrZJ5HHoH7+pYSzPHLzZnv4ZH nIHxqXvATLPoXPBBe+ajLksaGh+VzwzMg1OjtECTJasaPVJFA0836hP6KxxZa+pnr7Y+ kCXFitKuXqGeHH9A1WV4QL9NmllhFbVDsE7/1BR56Dp55/ee7JuE/x5xnRqpKHFOkzOV EfzTfR8/Xs3bC86x5Mai+WBeP0e5D5N6FC+NeqaAflEdvyYqfEtKpsG4p7GDnSSj8GMV QmtA5Dp8CfQBZHUgovhuB7eK53wIz8Sn3Q4KLbL5quPaSHBA+Uswpcx9rvzfdxWLa8hV XE1w== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmqkj65AiVeWEJWp1HqGR/D3GVmn3MgajWgZT2JAi2jG86ko6MOXonKxHB4hO6QbxGvJdXb X-Received: by 10.58.195.231 with SMTP id ih7mr729640vec.32.1400801062750; Thu, 22 May 2014 16:24:22 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.98.73 with HTTP; Thu, 22 May 2014 16:24:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [24.84.235.32] In-Reply-To: References: From: Tim Bray Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 18:24:02 -0500 Message-ID: To: Paul Hoffman Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b676630bf229d04fa056959 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/8FAvAes2nFjpXjpSeB3ZFvcSJEU Cc: IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] Working Group Last Call on draft-ietf-json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 23:24:27 -0000 --047d7b676630bf229d04fa056959 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >From section 1: Ideally such datasets could be parsed and processed one element at a time. Even if each element must be parsed in a not-online manner due to local choice of parser, the result will usually be sufficiently online: limited by the size of the biggest element in the sequence rather than by the size of the sequence. The second sentence is klunky and I don=E2=80=99t understand what it=E2=80= =99s trying to say. I suggest attaching the first sentence to the previous para and just losing the 2nd sentence. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Just lose section 2.1. Section 2 says perfectly clearly what a JSON sequence is, and requires that the material separating the texts MUST include one newline; so this language is at best redundant. How about putting a one-liner after the ABNF in section 2 saying. =E2=80=9CThe effect of the ABNF is that the JSON texts in a JSON Text Seque= nce are separated by whitespace which MUST include at least one newilne (U+000A) character.=E2=80=9D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 3., first para: missing word, should be =E2=80=9Cuntil they are closed=E2= =80=9D. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D I suggest removing section 3. It=E2=80=99s not hard to construct something that could appear in the middle of a JSON text that would match =E2=80=9Cboundary=E2=80=9D. As you note, this will not be a very common cir= cumstance, and I=E2=80=99m thinking of a bunch of different approaches I=E2=80=99d use= . In practice, the best solution is probably to arrange that records deterministically start with "\n{". Having said that, this is obviously an attack surface. I wonder how well deployed JSON parsers would survive bogus sequences constructed with careful maliciousness to drive typical parser implementations into severe CPU or memory burn? I bet I could construct a byte stream that would cause serious pain to most of the popular parsers. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Security considerations: - Why does the lack of an end-of-seq indicator constitute a security issue? I can believe it might be but there needs to be some sort of threat model - this paragraph... JSON text sequence parsers based on non-incremental, non-online JSON text parsers will not be able to efficiently parser JSON texts in which newlines appear; attempting to parse such sequences with non- incremental, non-online JSON text parsers creates a compute resource exhaustion vulnerability. Huh? What does the word =E2=80=9Conline=E2=80=9D mean in this context? Not= a rhetorical question, I genuinely don=E2=80=99t get it. I propose the following rewrite for Security Considerations
All the security considerations of JSON [RFC7159] apply to JSON Text Sequen= ces. An attacker could try to cause breakage in JSON Text Sequence processing software by arranging for a JSON text in a sequence to be very large, for example by including very large keys or values in JSON objects. JSON allows parsing software to impose limits on the such lengths, and implementors receiving software SHOULD implement and enforce such limits. An attacker could try to cause breakage in JSON Text Sequence processing software by including syntactically broken JSON texts which are designed to cause misbehavior in software attempting resynchronization.
On Thu, May 22, 2014 at 4:00 PM, Paul Hoffman wrote= : > This begins a two-week Working Group Last Call on > draft-ietf-json-text-sequence < > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-json-text-sequence>. We are seeking > any and all comments on the document in order to assess the strength of > consensus for it. If you are on this mailing list and have not yet read t= he > document, please do so now, and then comment on the list. If you have > already read the draft and commented, please feel free to do so again. > > As a reminder, comments can be anywhere in the continuum of "looks fine" > to "terrible idea"; they can include questions; they can include > suggestions for singificant editorial changes; they can include minor > editorial notes. > > --Matt Miller and Paul Hoffman > _______________________________________________ > json mailing list > json@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json > --=20 - Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a private message, see https://keybase.io/timbray) --047d7b676630bf229d04fa056959 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Fro= m section 1:=C2=A0


   Ideally such datasets could be parsed and processed one element at a
   time.  Even if each element must be parsed in a not-online manner due
   to local choice of parser, the result will usually be sufficiently
   online: limited by the size of the biggest element in the sequence
   rather than by the size of the sequence.

<= pre class=3D"" style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">The second sentence is klunky and I = don=E2=80=99t understand what it=E2=80=99s trying to say. =C2=A0I suggest a= ttaching the first sentence to the previous para and just losing the 2nd se= ntence. 
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Just lose section 2.1. =C2=A0Section 2 says perfectly clearl=
y what a JSON sequence is, and requires that the material separating the te=
xts MUST include one newline; so=C2=A0this=C2=A0language is at best redundant. =C2=A0How about put=
ting a one-liner after the ABNF in section 2 saying.

=E2=80=9CThe effect of the ABNF is that the J=
SON texts in a JSON Text Sequence are separated by whitespace which MUST in=
clude at least one newilne (U+000A) character.=E2=80=9D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
3., first para: missing word, should be =E2=80=9Cuntil they =
are closed=E2=80=9D.
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
I suggest removing section 3. It=E2=80=99s not hard to const=
ruct something that could appear in the middle of a JSON text that would ma=
tch =E2=80=9Cboundary=E2=80=9D. As you note, this will not be a very common=
 circumstance, and I=E2=80=99m thinking of a bunch of different approaches =
I=E2=80=99d use. =C2=A0In practice, the best solution is probably to arrang=
e that records deterministically start with "\n{". =C2=A0<=
/font>

Having said that, this is obviously an attack=
 surface. I wonder how well deployed JSON parsers would survive bogus seque=
nces constructed with careful maliciousness to drive typical parser impleme=
ntations into severe CPU or memory burn? =C2=A0I bet I could construct a by=
te stream that would cause serious pain to most of the popular parsers. =C2=
=A0
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Security considerations:
- Why does the lack of an end-of-se=
q indicator constitute a security issue? =C2=A0I can believe it might be bu=
t there needs to be some sort of threat model
- this paragraph...

   JSON text sequence parsers based on non-incremental, non-online JSON
   text parsers will not be able to efficiently parser JSON texts in
   which newlines appear; attempting to parse such sequences with non-
   incremental, non-online JSON text parsers creates a compute resource
   exhaustion vulnerability.=C2=A0
Huh? W=
hat does the word =E2=80=9Conline=E2=80=9D mean in this context? =C2=A0Not =
a rhetorical question, I genuinely don=E2=80=99t get it. =C2=A0I propose th=
e following rewrite for Security Considerations





<div>
All the =
security considerations of JSON [RFC7159] apply to JSON Text Sequences.





An attacker could t=
ry to cause breakage in JSON Text Sequence processing software by arranging=
 for a JSON text in a sequence to be very large, for example by including v=
ery large keys or values in JSON objects. =C2=A0JSON allows parsing softwar=
e to impose limits on the such lengths, and implementors receiving software=
 SHOULD implement and enforce such limits.




An attacker could try to cause breakage in=C2=
=A0JSON =
Text Sequence processing software by including syntactically broken JSON te=
xts which are designed to cause misbehavior in software attempting resynchr=
onization.



</div>

On Thu, May 22, 2014 at 4:00 PM, Paul Hoffman <= span dir=3D"ltr"><paul.hoffman@vpnc.org> wrote:
This begins a two-week Working Group Last Ca= ll on draft-ietf-json-text-sequence <http://tools.ietf.org/h= tml/draft-ietf-json-text-sequence>. We are seeking any and all comme= nts on the document in order to assess the strength of consensus for it. If= you are on this mailing list and have not yet read the document, please do= so now, and then comment on the list. If you have already read the draft a= nd commented, please feel free to do so again.

As a reminder, comments can be anywhere in the continuum of "looks fin= e" to "terrible idea"; they can include questions; they can = include suggestions for singificant editorial changes; they can include min= or editorial notes.

--Matt Miller and Paul Hoffman
_______________________________________________
json mailing list
json@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json



--
- Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a private message, s= ee https://keybase= .io/timbray)
--047d7b676630bf229d04fa056959-- From nobody Thu May 22 18:32:49 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 836F61A02BA for ; Thu, 22 May 2014 18:32:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.251 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.251 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yUN5kYm9a1k6 for ; Thu, 22 May 2014 18:32:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E538E1A02A3 for ; Thu, 22 May 2014 18:32:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1WneLg-0003d3-Hu; Thu, 22 May 2014 21:32:40 -0400 Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 21:32:40 -0400 From: John Cowan To: Tim Bray Message-ID: <20140523013240.GF15289@mercury.ccil.org> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Sender: John Cowan Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/iPRKa1Y9tO_V5k7ol9b3vD-w080 Cc: Paul Hoffman , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] Working Group Last Call on draft-ietf-json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 May 2014 01:32:46 -0000 Tim Bray scripsit: > Ideally such datasets could be parsed and processed one element at a > time. Even if each element must be parsed in a not-online manner due > to local choice of parser, the result will usually be sufficiently > online: limited by the size of the biggest element in the sequence > rather than by the size of the sequence. > > > The second sentence is klunky and I don’t understand what it’s trying > to say. I suggest attaching the first sentence to the previous para > and just losing the 2nd sentence. The key to understanding the second sentence is that "online" means what you and I call "streaming". -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org Winter: MIT, / Keio, INRIA, / Issue lots of Drafts. So much more to understand! / Might simplicity return? (A "tanka", or extended haiku) From nobody Thu May 22 21:05:36 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 614B71A008A for ; Thu, 22 May 2014 21:05:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.152 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.152 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pC_rcyuqZmst for ; Thu, 22 May 2014 21:05:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-4.cisco.com (alln-iport-4.cisco.com [173.37.142.91]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A816A1A0084 for ; 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Fri, 23 May 2014 04:05:29 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com ([169.254.15.76]) by xhc-rcd-x13.cisco.com ([173.37.183.87]) with mapi id 14.03.0123.003; Thu, 22 May 2014 23:05:29 -0500 From: "Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)" To: Jacob Davies Thread-Topic: [Json] I-JSON Tpic #2: Top-Level Thread-Index: AQHPdGi105aJE7T7fEWGVLPUM+Ea0ptKPs8AgAAGkoCAAT3AAIAABNEAgAAEmgD//6JygIAAhSaA//+bvQCAAKhIAIABhreA Date: Fri, 23 May 2014 04:05:28 +0000 Message-ID: References: <535EB119.4000908@cisco.com> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E1154581E82F@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> <537BB89E.2040305@cisco.com> <3CA1A8E2-341B-4E09-AC4F-30E427916F1B@vpnc.org> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.4.1.140326 x-originating-ip: [10.21.121.212] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <5FF7B6C02151A1468C5259C3961F1296@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/VwTUTyOorlRLsCWOfqHbPg1tWLI Cc: Nico Williams , Paul Hoffman , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] I-JSON Tpic #2: Top-Level X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 May 2014 04:05:34 -0000 T24gNS8yMS8xNCwgNDo0NyBQTSwgIkphY29iIERhdmllcyIgPGphY29iQHdlbGwuY29tPiB3cm90 ZToNCg0KPk9uIFdlZCwgTWF5IDIxLCAyMDE0IGF0IDExOjQ0IEFNLCBKb2UgSGlsZGVicmFuZCAo amhpbGRlYnIpDQo+PGpoaWxkZWJyQGNpc2NvLmNvbT4gd3JvdGU6DQo+Pj5pc3N1ZSBpbiBzdGFy a2VyIHRlcm1zOiBpbnRlcm9wIHdpdGggUkZDNDYyNyBpbXBsZW1lbnRhdGlvbnMgd2l0aCBubw0K Pj4+b3B0aW9uIHRvIHBhcnNlIGFsbCB0eXBlcyBhdCB0aGUgdG9wLWxldmVsLg0KPj4NCj4+IFRo YXQncyB3aGF0IEkgd2FudC4NCj4NCj5JIGhhdmUgdG8gYXNrIGFnYWluOiB3aHk/DQoNCi4uLg0K DQo+WWV0IGFsbW9zdCBhbGwgb2YgdGhlbSBoYW5kbGUgdG9wLWxldmVsIHZhbHVlcyBvZiBhbnkN Cj50eXBlIGp1c3QgZmluZSAoSSBiZWxpZXZlIHRoZSBqc29uLm9yZyBjb2RlIGRvZXMgbm90KS4N Cg0KVGhhdCdzIHdoeS4NCg0KLS0gDQpKb2UgSGlsZGVicmFuZA0KDQoNCg0K From nobody Thu May 22 23:53:57 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35F391A00DF for ; Thu, 22 May 2014 23:53:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.442 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.442 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id j3GwKSmmEMaf for ; Thu, 22 May 2014 23:53:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scintmta01-14.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scintmta.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.253.64]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E80241A004D for ; Thu, 22 May 2014 23:53:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmeg01-14.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.253.15]) by scintmta01-14.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB1A832E4F0; Fri, 23 May 2014 15:53:49 +0900 (JST) Received: from itmail2.it.aoyama.ac.jp (unknown [133.2.206.134]) by scmeg01-14.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp with smtp id 0d95_9506_50e356ce_f542_4336_a9f7_1e7ff56ae989; Fri, 23 May 2014 15:53:49 +0900 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (unknown [133.2.210.1]) by itmail2.it.aoyama.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04F63C0234; Fri, 23 May 2014 15:53:49 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <537EF070.6060503@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Fri, 23 May 2014 15:53:36 +0900 From: =?UTF-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Hoffman , IETF JSON WG References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/2wD_j0C7uwTHNXU-DznRF_G9bHM Subject: Re: [Json] Working Group Last Call on draft-ietf-json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 May 2014 06:53:54 -0000 I have said so earlier, and will say it here again: I consider this a *terrible idea*, because JSON in and by itself is perfectly able to represent sequences (using arrays). The two things needed for making this work are changing the delimiter from a line break to a comma (trivial) and to start the thing with a '[' and end it with ']'. Only the ending part is non-trivial, but there are many ways to deal with it, depending on the parser at hand. These are very similar to the problems that some parsers will have with "overfeeding" them with more than a single JSON text. The scarcity of actual use cases and the negligible amount of mostly just perceived difficulties with the main format (JSON) stand in stark contrast with the costs of *yet another format* (YAF, anybody?). Questions, comments, and confusions such as "No, this isn't JSON, it's a JSON text sequence." or "Do we use JSON, or JSON text sequences?" and so on can best be avoided by just forgetting about JSON text sequences once and for all. Also, JSON text sequences aren't recursively composible. So my baseline proposal is for the WG to just abandon this work item. It's in the charter, but at least that part of the charter came as a surprise and didn't have too many active proponents. It's better to acknowledge a mistake later than never. If the WG can't get to such a conclusion, I alternatively propose to degrade the document to Experimental. That might make it possible to evaluate the actual need for such a format and balance it against the potential confusion. I also propose that if the document moves forward with publication, it contain very clear text in the abstract, the introduction, the security section and potentially elsewhere to the effect that this is NOT JSON, and shouldn't be confused with JSON. It should also say that whenever there's a choice between JSON and JSON text sequences, the former (potentially with an array at the top) should be chosen unless there is an unrefutable reason for the later (this will increase interoperability). The introduction also should tone down the discussion about problems with parsing a one-million value array. If that's a practical problem, then it's not too difficult to parse the delimiters separately and only have the values parsed by a JSON parser (the availability of a JSON parser that stops when having finished reading a single value is assumed anyway). Regards, Martin. On 2014/05/23 06:00, Paul Hoffman wrote: > This begins a two-week Working Group Last Call on draft-ietf-json-text-sequence . We are seeking any and all comments on the document in order to assess the strength of consensus for it. If you are on this mailing list and have not yet read the document, please do so now, and then comment on the list. If you have already read the draft and commented, please feel free to do so again. > > As a reminder, comments can be anywhere in the continuum of "looks fine" to "terrible idea"; they can include questions; they can include suggestions for singificant editorial changes; they can include minor editorial notes. > > --Matt Miller and Paul Hoffman > _______________________________________________ > json mailing list > json@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json > From nobody Fri May 23 00:36:59 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02FB31A00E1 for ; Fri, 23 May 2014 00:36:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.442 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.442 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8Aq83_DZocgi for ; Fri, 23 May 2014 00:36:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scintmta01-14.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scintmta.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.253.64]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B41EA1A00DA for ; Fri, 23 May 2014 00:36:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmeg01-14.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.253.15]) by scintmta01-14.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7B4E32E57A; Fri, 23 May 2014 16:36:54 +0900 (JST) Received: from itmail2.it.aoyama.ac.jp (unknown [133.2.206.134]) by scmeg01-14.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp with smtp id 0d95_9f1e_f1928008_a163_41e5_8699_ed239817e189; Fri, 23 May 2014 16:36:54 +0900 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (unknown [133.2.210.1]) by itmail2.it.aoyama.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 336C4C0234; Fri, 23 May 2014 16:36:54 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <537EFA89.2060909@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Fri, 23 May 2014 16:36:41 +0900 From: =?UTF-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Cowan , Tim Bray References: <20140523013240.GF15289@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20140523013240.GF15289@mercury.ccil.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/s-VE-i3HLJiJo1czgdIvykWDivM Cc: Paul Hoffman , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] Working Group Last Call on draft-ietf-json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 May 2014 07:36:58 -0000 On 2014/05/23 10:32, John Cowan wrote: > The key to understanding the second sentence is that "online" means what > you and I call "streaming". Can we make sure that at least once early in the document, one of the term is explained by also using the other one? Regards, Martin. From nobody Fri May 23 09:01:46 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B96C11A06B3 for ; Fri, 23 May 2014 09:01:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.444 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.444 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, J_CHICKENPOX_45=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3TQBUkxX4Fje for ; Fri, 23 May 2014 09:01:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a102.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5891A1A067E for ; Fri, 23 May 2014 09:01:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a102.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a102.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D50E42006D30D for ; Fri, 23 May 2014 09:01:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s= cryptonector.com; bh=nUOfZVqaxjIA725pN/D8192GXCE=; b=JLCU3xV8txN vzWFuiC5+tVDwhD83708Tak8aBTM9wn1JLijkBT43VjcUe6YRAXaZr5L0tSy7WYb OiktGwzHQq1XwwDqCHv0j/DiboXcPD/Nfeys/h68tHS36bAWRGETnODutLSHL+bk IG9SlAYkKfKDxV8XbwKG75MRp/s3wSYs= Received: from mail-wi0-f169.google.com (mail-wi0-f169.google.com [209.85.212.169]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a102.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8875A2006D30C for ; Fri, 23 May 2014 09:01:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wi0-f169.google.com with SMTP id hi2so1320520wib.4 for ; Fri, 23 May 2014 09:01:34 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.77.225 with SMTP id v1mr4112685wiw.5.1400860894296; Fri, 23 May 2014 09:01:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.29.200 with HTTP; Fri, 23 May 2014 09:01:34 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20140523013240.GF15289@mercury.ccil.org> References: <20140523013240.GF15289@mercury.ccil.org> Date: Fri, 23 May 2014 11:01:34 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: John Cowan Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/6EyW34KECrIBnwL3eloMt590S4M Cc: Tim Bray , Paul Hoffman , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] Working Group Last Call on draft-ietf-json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 May 2014 16:01:40 -0000 On Thu, May 22, 2014 at 8:32 PM, John Cowan wrote: > Tim Bray scripsit: >> The second sentence is klunky and I don=E2=80=99t understand what it=E2= =80=99s trying >> to say. I suggest attaching the first sentence to the previous para >> and just losing the 2nd sentence. > > The key to understanding the second sentence is that "online" means what > you and I call "streaming". I classify JSON parsers as follows: - streaming -> consume input text incrementally AND produce results incrementally (e.g., a path+value pair for each scalar value in a text) - online -> consume input text incrementally (but -perhaps- produces one value for a complete parsed text) - not-online -> consumes input text non-incrementally, must be provided complete texts Streaming parsers are also online parsers in my classification. Perhaps I'm using the wrong terminology, but I've yet to see a standard classification of JSON parsers that captures these distinctions. The value of JSON text sequences comes from not having to use a streaming parser (since they can be unwieldy). There is also value on the encoding side: not having to use a streaming encoder, nor manually emit an opening '[' and ','s between texts. A real-world example of this is jq (https://stedolan.github.io/jq), which has an online-but-streaming parser, and which naturally supports JSON text sequences. jq can consume (and produce) JSON text sequences in a "streaming" manner even though its JSON parser and encoder are not streaming. Nico -- From nobody Fri May 23 10:03:03 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D34E71A06E7 for ; Fri, 23 May 2014 10:02:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.377 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.377 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_45=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gnKRpeLYrvpy for ; Fri, 23 May 2014 10:02:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ve0-f173.google.com (mail-ve0-f173.google.com [209.85.128.173]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3DC421A01FF for ; Fri, 23 May 2014 10:02:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ve0-f173.google.com with SMTP id pa12so6634872veb.18 for ; Fri, 23 May 2014 10:02:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=k5i4GASFGA1jaEGws3HCdxQ0RA0+R32aqov50ayYHw4=; b=Gdnr5z041vLnL1/t11PtoIclpIdX7PSjK+u6+KBAkEaBpZBP5eJSfI52V95M/U/w+V 3MmyfFNEW51P4zjcNJVlzsXJhLCKSL499ftgSNOu9zxfFfIngddxxuw8AXNeTjo6YfKd AjFqTjvQCTLqDN+Yxydct9LRgWI2JDGN0/46BRAXf1dxzRkfMbxYmKWakPnHaKGo8OZ5 ASvVfm1WqY28Lf7bk/sEdu6RUbYxQOnTdRhaU/mNQbLFHDW7mKyqnGuLvArrdcWAUi88 oi9o1hiTBSmCTNNl0dtI3mwhKphXAr5Qdgo7zineWSNalz9M6UE/51YNbxMNs2/Eq7Zp xQZw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQl0YJI7FVXMArklLGH8DTJ2puJ3vxuLDhzmAbEkABLde7VTuCgg/Hx8nqeSIMHQHu4WQ/FY X-Received: by 10.220.105.4 with SMTP id r4mr5328453vco.27.1400864575361; Fri, 23 May 2014 10:02:55 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.98.73 with HTTP; Fri, 23 May 2014 10:02:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [24.84.235.32] In-Reply-To: References: <20140523013240.GF15289@mercury.ccil.org> From: Tim Bray Date: Fri, 23 May 2014 12:02:35 -0500 Message-ID: To: Nico Williams Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e0122f33264aee904fa143342 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/lYD-ievmSq30dnkVZ3ytW9AGupw Cc: John Cowan , Paul Hoffman , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] Working Group Last Call on draft-ietf-json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 May 2014 17:03:00 -0000 --089e0122f33264aee904fa143342 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Clearly the current language is confusing readers of the spec. So I suggest that you be careful to define specialized terms that you are going to use in the spec. An even better solution would be to structure the spec to avoid having to bring in this level of implementation idiosyncrasy. The more I think about the resync-after-error problem, the unhappier I get. If the JSON texts in sequences were required to be JSON objects, and required to start on new lines, this would be immensely easier for implementors. On Fri, May 23, 2014 at 11:01 AM, Nico Williams wrot= e: > On Thu, May 22, 2014 at 8:32 PM, John Cowan > wrote: > > Tim Bray scripsit: > >> The second sentence is klunky and I don=E2=80=99t understand what it= =E2=80=99s trying > >> to say. I suggest attaching the first sentence to the previous para > >> and just losing the 2nd sentence. > > > > The key to understanding the second sentence is that "online" means wha= t > > you and I call "streaming". > > I classify JSON parsers as follows: > > - streaming -> consume input text incrementally AND produce results > incrementally (e.g., a path+value pair for each scalar value in a > text) > > - online -> consume input text incrementally (but -perhaps- produces > one value for a complete parsed text) > > - not-online -> consumes input text non-incrementally, must be > provided complete texts > > Streaming parsers are also online parsers in my classification. > > Perhaps I'm using the wrong terminology, but I've yet to see a > standard classification of JSON parsers that captures these > distinctions. > > The value of JSON text sequences comes from not having to use a > streaming parser (since they can be unwieldy). There is also value on > the encoding side: not having to use a streaming encoder, nor manually > emit an opening '[' and ','s between texts. > > A real-world example of this is jq (https://stedolan.github.io/jq), > which has an online-but-streaming parser, and which naturally supports > JSON text sequences. jq can consume (and produce) JSON text sequences > in a "streaming" manner even though its JSON parser and encoder are > not streaming. > > Nico > -- > --=20 - Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a private message, see https://keybase.io/timbray) --089e0122f33264aee904fa143342 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Cle= arly the current language is confusing readers of the spec. So I suggest th= at you be careful to define specialized terms that you are going to use in = the spec. =C2=A0An even better solution would be to structure the spec to a= void having to bring in this level of implementation idiosyncrasy.

The more I think about the res= ync-after-error problem, the unhappier I get. =C2=A0If the JSON texts in se= quences were required to be JSON objects, and required to start on new line= s, this would be immensely easier for implementors.


On Fri,= May 23, 2014 at 11:01 AM, Nico Williams <nico@cryptonector.com>= ; wrote:
On Thu, May 22, 2014 at 8:32 PM, John Cowan = <cowan@mercury.ccil.org>= ; wrote:
> Tim Bray scripsit:
>> The second sentence is klunky and I don=E2=80=99t = understand what it=E2=80=99s trying
>> to say. =C2=A0I suggest attaching the first sentence to the previo= us para
>> and just losing the 2nd sentence.
>
> The key to understanding the second sentence is that "online"= ; means what
> you and I call "streaming".

I classify JSON parsers as follows:

=C2=A0- streaming -> consume input text incrementally AND produce result= s
incrementally (e.g., a path+value pair for each scalar value in a
text)

=C2=A0- online -> consume input text incrementally (but -perhaps- produc= es
one value for a complete parsed text)

=C2=A0- not-online -> consumes input text non-incrementally, must be
provided complete texts

Streaming parsers are also online parsers in my classification.

Perhaps I'm using the wrong terminology, but I've yet to see a
standard classification of JSON parsers that captures these
distinctions.

The value of JSON text sequences comes from not having to use a
streaming parser (since they can be unwieldy). =C2=A0There is also value on=
the encoding side: not having to use a streaming encoder, nor manually
emit an opening '[' and ','s between texts.

A real-world example of this is jq (https://stedolan.github.io/jq),
which has an online-but-streaming parser, and which naturally supports
JSON text sequences. =C2=A0jq can consume (and produce) JSON text sequences=
in a "streaming" manner even though its JSON parser and encoder a= re
not streaming.

Nico
--



--
- Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a private message, s= ee https://keybase= .io/timbray)
--089e0122f33264aee904fa143342-- From nobody Fri May 23 13:45:11 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4CCD1A0056 for ; Fri, 23 May 2014 13:45:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.044 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.044 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BZg6D5UWhQOF for ; Fri, 23 May 2014 13:45:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a87.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0FF51A0052 for ; Fri, 23 May 2014 13:45:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a87.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a87.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EC2E26C063 for ; Fri, 23 May 2014 13:45:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:cc:content-type; s=cryptonector.com; bh=l8jwG5osv8upKQrBnotD ne9EFXE=; b=D3hCW7nFfPDJw3zlLoNFc2g3Xj4hzY1Lk1viK/pVtACfiq4IP9eV BNR1MKmQ+VlJe9EjwzDc6m7WU6I+qsd8STBRugJNOIgytzbs6p5HkKKnhK172M2p xb/PNihALHQ01kMJTP09hQFZl6lbZjA6+szzFfT78xIFMFyDFZ6UlUo= Received: from mail-we0-f175.google.com (mail-we0-f175.google.com [74.125.82.175]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a87.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D3F0B26C05E for ; Fri, 23 May 2014 13:45:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-we0-f175.google.com with SMTP id t61so5403354wes.34 for ; Fri, 23 May 2014 13:45:04 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.77.225 with SMTP id v1mr5366014wiw.5.1400877904474; Fri, 23 May 2014 13:45:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.29.200 with HTTP; Fri, 23 May 2014 13:45:04 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20140523013240.GF15289@mercury.ccil.org> Date: Fri, 23 May 2014 15:45:04 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: Tim Bray Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/7kJ8Xd4DgEFiHAv_5LrHMWUPq6k Cc: John Cowan , Paul Hoffman , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] Working Group Last Call on draft-ietf-json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 May 2014 20:45:09 -0000 On Fri, May 23, 2014 at 12:02 PM, Tim Bray wrote: > Clearly the current language is confusing readers of the spec. So I suggest > that you be careful to define specialized terms that you are going to use in > the spec. An even better solution would be to structure the spec to avoid > having to bring in this level of implementation idiosyncrasy. > > The more I think about the resync-after-error problem, the unhappier I get. > If the JSON texts in sequences were required to be JSON objects, and > required to start on new lines, this would be immensely easier for > implementors. That is not sufficient. Consider this text: { "foo": { "bar":"baz" } } Clearly looking only for LF '{' is insufficient. The text describes how to ensure that resynchronization can be done safely. First, it says that "writers SHOULD validate (parse) any untrusted JSON text inputs". Then it gives two methods that, together with validation, make resynchronization possible. One method is to remove all newlines from JSON texts (a trivial operation, see below) prior to writing them to the log file. Then the only boundary that matters is newlines, and that's very easy to search for reliably. The other method is to prefix every text with another text consisting of something like 'null' (or 'true', or any value which will by convention have no meaning other than as a resynchronization helper). Also a trivial operation. (Note that because newlines in strings must always be escaped, then only newlines interior to any JSON text are... superfluous whitespace that can be safely removed without having to parse and re-encode the JSON text.) Most attacks on loggers are easily thwarted by checking that any JSON text to be logged is valid. This leaves only one attack vector: forcing a write by the logger to fail after starting -- this is a non-trivial attack to mount, and it is trivially defeated by either removing internal newlines from texts prior to writing them, or by prefixing them with a meaningless-by-convention text (e.g., 'null'). Nico -- From nobody Fri May 23 15:00:05 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 672FA1A00BE for ; Fri, 23 May 2014 15:00:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.347 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.347 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bhLuXG_NpHNP for ; Fri, 23 May 2014 14:59:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hoffman.proper.com (IPv6.Hoffman.Proper.COM [IPv6:2605:8e00:100:41::81]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AFAC91A00C9 for ; Fri, 23 May 2014 14:59:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.20.30.90] (50-1-51-90.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com [50.1.51.90]) (authenticated bits=0) by hoffman.proper.com (8.14.8/8.14.7) with ESMTP id s4NLxsa0060069 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 23 May 2014 14:59:56 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: hoffman.proper.com: Host 50-1-51-90.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com [50.1.51.90] claimed to be [10.20.30.90] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.2\)) From: Paul Hoffman In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 23 May 2014 14:59:54 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20140523013240.GF15289@mercury.ccil.org> To: Nico Williams X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.2) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/WQF2uCGoZQ2V6USh5guYi9A9yRc Cc: John Cowan , Tim Bray , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] Working Group Last Call on draft-ietf-json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 23 May 2014 22:00:00 -0000 On May 23, 2014, at 1:45 PM, Nico Williams = wrote: > On Fri, May 23, 2014 at 12:02 PM, Tim Bray = wrote: >> Clearly the current language is confusing readers of the spec. So I = suggest >> that you be careful to define specialized terms that you are going to = use in >> the spec. An even better solution would be to structure the spec to = avoid >> having to bring in this level of implementation idiosyncrasy. >>=20 >> The more I think about the resync-after-error problem, the unhappier = I get. >> If the JSON texts in sequences were required to be JSON objects, and >> required to start on new lines, this would be immensely easier for >> implementors. >=20 > That is not sufficient. Consider this text: >=20 > { "foo": > { "bar":"baz" } > } >=20 > Clearly looking only for LF '{' is insufficient. Having this discussion in a short subsection in the introduction would = be useful to answer a wary reader's question of "why is this needed?". --Paul Hoffman= From nobody Fri May 23 17:12:50 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DE0C1A026F; Fri, 23 May 2014 17:12:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zgPeRhxnNOaY; Fri, 23 May 2014 17:12:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F1141A024D; Fri, 23 May 2014 17:12:46 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 5.4.2.p3 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20140524001246.1441.65116.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 23 May 2014 17:12:46 -0700 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/8qRtuFnmyqigF0huT6_SLB-A8jQ Cc: json@ietf.org Subject: [Json] I-D Action: draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-04.txt X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 24 May 2014 00:12:47 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the JavaScript Object Notation Working Group of the IETF. Title : JavaScript Object Notation (JSON) Text Sequences Author : Nicolas Williams Filename : draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-04.txt Pages : 12 Date : 2014-05-23 Abstract: This document describes the JSON text sequence format and associated media type. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-json-text-sequence/ There's also a htmlized version available at: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-04 A diff from the previous version is available at: http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-04 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Fri May 23 17:15:43 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 498D71A0271 for ; Fri, 23 May 2014 17:15:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.044 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.044 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ASh3epza-5hF for ; Fri, 23 May 2014 17:15:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a63.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D21C81A026B for ; Fri, 23 May 2014 17:15:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a63.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a63.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 158032F4065 for ; Fri, 23 May 2014 17:15:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; s= cryptonector.com; bh=NB3ISmvYURqlOyThFGI2jbrCOEU=; b=juSprCwSwnK dv44bxXCDASFi/eIxR7zT81CDqFPYXooDFGNC/D44KA7t0I9cgKyNdOTr63TeZII ujSBc93xsz1DcP03HWbLyfI1iI9HP2/j4zQBnkQ5C8DwD19yQfUHMIVcT2HCyKo/ AajqqF/ziM/N3psiTJXdKRN+qaJ+6rqM= Received: from mail-wi0-f172.google.com (mail-wi0-f172.google.com [209.85.212.172]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a63.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id BC5262F4060 for ; Fri, 23 May 2014 17:15:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wi0-f172.google.com with SMTP id hi2so1572761wib.17 for ; Fri, 23 May 2014 17:15:38 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.212.77 with SMTP id ni13mr6484715wic.5.1400890538646; Fri, 23 May 2014 17:15:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.29.200 with HTTP; Fri, 23 May 2014 17:15:38 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 23 May 2014 19:15:38 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: Paul Hoffman Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/23vtTtWxqlaA5JIoZgId2mhrEZk Cc: IETF JSON WG Subject: [Json] -04 submitted (Re: Working Group Last Call on draft-ietf-json-text-sequence) X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 24 May 2014 00:15:42 -0000 See subject. From nobody Sat May 24 10:02:30 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E65DE1A035C for ; Sat, 24 May 2014 10:02:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.149 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.149 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BlqOWiyxmBmd for ; Sat, 24 May 2014 10:02:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1A72B1A016C for ; Sat, 24 May 2014 10:02:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s4OH2Dko029463; Sat, 24 May 2014 19:02:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.217.148] (p54892C9D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.137.44.157]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 154C11DD9; Sat, 24 May 2014 19:02:12 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.2\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <537EF070.6060503@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Sat, 24 May 2014 19:02:11 +0200 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 422643731.338718-da57f3f51f22e82782e58bdbd5c39c58 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <4E4FB86A-7DD7-462D-83F7-1FAFD947FF46@tzi.org> References: <537EF070.6060503@it.aoyama.ac.jp> To: =?windows-1252?Q?=22Martin_J=2E_D=FCrst=22?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.2) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/jBoFOunU3I2JmqtLSTVH2WlR8Pk Cc: Paul Hoffman , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] Working Group Last Call on draft-ietf-json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 24 May 2014 17:02:27 -0000 On 23 May 2014, at 08:53, Martin J. D=FCrst = wrote: > it's not too difficult to parse the delimiters separately and only = have the values parsed by a JSON parser Indeed. I continue to believe that this is the only reasonable way to = operate on sequences of JSON instances. Either 1) use a delimiter that cannot occur in JSON (staying in UTF-8 with = ASCII control characters as in NUL, FF or RS; or breaking out of UTF-8 = as in using 0xFF bytes); 2) use LF as the delimiter, and remove the LFs from the JSON instances. Using LFs as inter-stream delimiters, while also retaining their = insignificant whitespace role within JSON instances, strikes me as the = most complicated way to approach this problem. There may be practical reasons to use this most-complicated way, but it = seems suboptimal to standardize on it. (I=92m not a big fan of wrapping separate JSON instances in outermost = JSON arrays for the kinds of applications addressed here. This can obviously already be used for those cases where it works (no = need for concatenation, no need for resilience), but except in those = cases where a combined JSON instance had been the right thing to use in = the first place, it combines all the same problems of dual-use LFs with = the need to add wrapping brackets.) Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten From nobody Sat May 24 11:11:13 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 707F71A01DC for ; Sat, 24 May 2014 11:11:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LhKi_YykxELF for ; Sat, 24 May 2014 11:11:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vc0-f171.google.com (mail-vc0-f171.google.com [209.85.220.171]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 44EBB1A0049 for ; Sat, 24 May 2014 11:11:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vc0-f171.google.com with SMTP id lc6so7597867vcb.2 for ; Sat, 24 May 2014 11:11:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=VX+8oy2OXF6ha2vZa1f01jDqM6ZgY9xEWFesHP3W9Eg=; b=mkSgLB3+BLd5h3qB9fh6Ttr255dOtQP92EKNLY9FO+ruc/et6m1FkHufwiYUFBjr0e axZgk3Iw9o2xYVUkoGI0dnEM+2ebjtq+LL1PMrihQlhV4/FOE/gri/3HU9kMMPNBBjmG CTiaVYmG3gIH6v/f8Atm0ecGuY1ALe4ZiM8TBWvb1gXEw9SAq0YJ7zvPsC9OrZ2GOEg5 xLMAwKdr/rsv6Dsu0c2MekkjOCQoEGDDE5hc1lCQOPNnCJy6WepFiPFC8goqkBu8DLYj KMmsCJLeHx7mByQy6UsqzDdZtN7P1CrKFrdau0D9oeh040pCr/S9zd/KCCJKL/58hZIj h5ag== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnP/uXvULVDjJvqMOwTMHj0JHcjIzp3EXun6bAdF5UxaVtw5aGjnrSP8Mr1yTnuQFBM7szZ X-Received: by 10.53.13.35 with SMTP id ev3mr8884000vdd.1.1400955064405; Sat, 24 May 2014 11:11:04 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.98.73 with HTTP; Sat, 24 May 2014 11:10:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [24.84.235.32] In-Reply-To: <4E4FB86A-7DD7-462D-83F7-1FAFD947FF46@tzi.org> References: <537EF070.6060503@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <4E4FB86A-7DD7-462D-83F7-1FAFD947FF46@tzi.org> From: Tim Bray Date: Sat, 24 May 2014 13:10:44 -0500 Message-ID: To: Carsten Bormann Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1135ecdcf5e99104fa294480 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/shUg0ydjNaHpE41Vgi2CyMXT4zg Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2E_D=C3=BCrst?= , Paul Hoffman , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] Working Group Last Call on draft-ietf-json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 24 May 2014 18:11:11 -0000 --001a1135ecdcf5e99104fa294480 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On reflection, I support Carsten=E2=80=99s option #1; choose a suitable del= imiter that can=E2=80=99t occur in UTF-8-encoded JSON. It makes the syncing probl= em vanish and removes worrying attack vectors. On Sat, May 24, 2014 at 12:02 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote: > On 23 May 2014, at 08:53, Martin J. D=C3=BCrst w= rote: > > > it's not too difficult to parse the delimiters separately and only have > the values parsed by a JSON parser > > Indeed. I continue to believe that this is the only reasonable way to > operate on sequences of JSON instances. > Either > > 1) use a delimiter that cannot occur in JSON (staying in UTF-8 with ASCII > control characters as in NUL, FF or RS; or breaking out of UTF-8 as in > using 0xFF bytes); > 2) use LF as the delimiter, and remove the LFs from the JSON instances. > > Using LFs as inter-stream delimiters, while also retaining their > insignificant whitespace role within JSON instances, strikes me as the mo= st > complicated way to approach this problem. > There may be practical reasons to use this most-complicated way, but it > seems suboptimal to standardize on it. > > (I=E2=80=99m not a big fan of wrapping separate JSON instances in outermo= st JSON > arrays for the kinds of applications addressed here. > This can obviously already be used for those cases where it works (no nee= d > for concatenation, no need for resilience), but except in those cases whe= re > a combined JSON instance had been the right thing to use in the first > place, it combines all the same problems of dual-use LFs with the need to > add wrapping brackets.) > > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > > _______________________________________________ > json mailing list > json@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json > --=20 - Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a private message, see https://keybase.io/timbray) --001a1135ecdcf5e99104fa294480 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On = reflection, I support Carsten=E2=80=99s option #1; choose a suitable delimi= ter that can=E2=80=99t occur in UTF-8-encoded JSON. =C2=A0It makes the sync= ing problem vanish and removes worrying attack vectors.


On Sat, May 2= 4, 2014 at 12:02 PM, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> wrote:
On 23 May 2014, at 08:53, Martin J. D=C3=BCrst <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp> wrote:
> it's not too difficult to parse the delimiters separately and only= have the values parsed by a JSON parser

Indeed. =C2=A0I continue to believe that this is the only reasonable = way to operate on sequences of JSON instances.
Either

1) use a delimiter that cannot occur in JSON (staying in UTF-8 with ASCII c= ontrol characters as in NUL, FF or RS; or breaking out of UTF-8 as in using= 0xFF bytes);
2) use LF as the delimiter, and remove the LFs from the JSON instances.

Using LFs as inter-stream delimiters, while also retaining their insignific= ant whitespace role within JSON instances, strikes me as the most complicat= ed way to approach this problem.
There may be practical reasons to use this most-complicated way, but it see= ms suboptimal to standardize on it.

(I=E2=80=99m not a big fan of wrapping separate JSON instances in outermost= JSON arrays for the kinds of applications addressed here.
This can obviously already be used for those cases where it works (no need = for concatenation, no need for resilience), but except in those cases where= a combined JSON instance had been the right thing to use in the first plac= e, it combines all the same problems of dual-use LFs with the need to add w= rapping brackets.)

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten

_______________________________________________
json mailing list
json@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json



--
=
- Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a privat= e message, see htt= ps://keybase.io/timbray)
--001a1135ecdcf5e99104fa294480-- From nobody Sat May 24 14:38:08 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDF5E1A0056 for ; Sat, 24 May 2014 14:38:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Fy01_cbSIbpA for ; Sat, 24 May 2014 14:38:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qc0-x235.google.com (mail-qc0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c01::235]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 434BA1A0054 for ; Sat, 24 May 2014 14:38:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qc0-f181.google.com with SMTP id m20so10105267qcx.26 for ; Sat, 24 May 2014 14:38:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=zngnXcYtyVPKV+jCrULobfuBf2m7hL5fE0w05drzxWM=; b=jygtARcnZ2oDAxgkv/AgWMgJyYoVWclYBvF/GYmtYykXR6W0enPEQwH1cj0462DgJv yR06x4i2A+ea4rVnrmEYqcHP+eOakxaRUdjONG/MpnJXhArVUPJNDOXHKQcJGOENeeEF 9EsWPnQwKOPU7qORz9XPZhRZWDBaNqKgc0bB4yjAn42pxuNHoxw2YFzrQxcl8PZK6QfE G4jU0nYY3+LLQILKpXv1ybLTiyCqwbBPkIerAHwZh436Yqx/dbrM00KFP08TjZfJVZ/Q HfDW7gQ/uXoCpzOnKj+YrpiI9yK1LrYQVAbjJye1fBKAqw5JdkYX7HAYwOVC085s+drA IBbg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.140.40.180 with SMTP id x49mr18427419qgx.16.1400967482620; Sat, 24 May 2014 14:38:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.140.16.165 with HTTP; Sat, 24 May 2014 14:38:02 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <537EF070.6060503@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <4E4FB86A-7DD7-462D-83F7-1FAFD947FF46@tzi.org> Date: Sat, 24 May 2014 14:38:02 -0700 Message-ID: From: R S To: Tim Bray Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c1276624c26e04fa2c29ad Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/Hy0Z8YiwhnG0FfQvNxqqJDrKd48 Cc: Carsten Bormann , IETF JSON WG , =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2E_D=C3=BCrst?= , Paul Hoffman Subject: Re: [Json] Working Group Last Call on draft-ietf-json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 24 May 2014 21:38:07 -0000 --001a11c1276624c26e04fa2c29ad Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, May 24, 2014 at 11:10 AM, Tim Bray wrote: > On reflection, I support Carsten=E2=80=99s option #1; choose a suitable d= elimiter > that can=E2=80=99t occur in UTF-8-encoded JSON. It makes the syncing pro= blem > vanish and removes worrying attack vectors. > Option #1 has two options. I think breaking out of UTF-8 will cause more problems than it solves, so using an ASCII control character is what I'd do. It looks to me like this is what Record Separator was designed for. Why not use it? - Rob On Sat, May 24, 2014 at 12:02 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote: > On 23 May 2014, at 08:53, Martin J. D=C3=BCrst w= rote: > > > it's not too difficult to parse the delimiters separately and only have > the values parsed by a JSON parser > > Indeed. I continue to believe that this is the only reasonable way to > operate on sequences of JSON instances. > Either > > 1) use a delimiter that cannot occur in JSON (staying in UTF-8 with ASCII > control characters as in NUL, FF or RS; or breaking out of UTF-8 as in > using 0xFF bytes); > 2) use LF as the delimiter, and remove the LFs from the JSON instances. > > Using LFs as inter-stream delimiters, while also retaining their > insignificant whitespace role within JSON instances, strikes me as the mo= st > complicated way to approach this problem. > There may be practical reasons to use this most-complicated way, but it > seems suboptimal to standardize on it. > > (I=E2=80=99m not a big fan of wrapping separate JSON instances in outermo= st JSON > arrays for the kinds of applications addressed here. > This can obviously already be used for those cases where it works (no nee= d > for concatenation, no need for resilience), but except in those cases whe= re > a combined JSON instance had been the right thing to use in the first > place, it combines all the same problems of dual-use LFs with the need to > add wrapping brackets.) > > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > > _______________________________________________ > json mailing list > json@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json > --=20 - Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a private message, see https://keybase.io/timbray) > > _______________________________________________ > json mailing list > json@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json > > --001a11c1276624c26e04fa2c29ad Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Sat, May 24, 2014 at 11:10 AM, Tim Bray <tbray@text= uality.com> wrote:
On reflection, I support Carsten=E2=80=99s option #1; choose a suitable= delimiter that can=E2=80=99t occur in UTF-8-encoded JSON. =C2=A0It makes t= he syncing problem vanish and removes worrying attack vectors.
=C2=A0
Option #1 has two = options. I think breaking out of UTF-8 will cause more problems than it sol= ves, so using an ASCII control character is what I'd do. It looks to me= like this is what Record Separator was designed for. Why not use it?

- Rob


On Sat, May 24, 20= 14 at 12:02 PM, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> wrote:
On 23 May 2014, at 08:53, Martin J. D=C3=BCrst <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp> wro= te:

> it's not too difficult to parse the delimiters separately and only= have the values parsed by a JSON parser

Indeed. =C2=A0I continue to believe that this is the only reasonable = way to operate on sequences of JSON instances.
Either

1) use a delimiter that cannot occur in JSON (staying in UTF-8 with ASCII c= ontrol characters as in NUL, FF or RS; or breaking out of UTF-8 as in using= 0xFF bytes);
2) use LF as the delimiter, and remove the LFs from the JSON instances.

Using LFs as inter-stream delimiters, while also retaining their insignific= ant whitespace role within JSON instances, strikes me as the most complicat= ed way to approach this problem.
There may be practical reasons to use this most-complicated way, but it see= ms suboptimal to standardize on it.

(I=E2=80=99m not a big fan of wrapping separate JSON instances in outermost= JSON arrays for the kinds of applications addressed here.
This can obviously already be used for those cases where it works (no need = for concatenation, no need for resilience), but except in those cases where= a combined JSON instance had been the right thing to use in the first plac= e, it combines all the same problems of dual-use LFs with the need to add w= rapping brackets.)

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten

_______________________________________________
json mailing list
json@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json



<= /div>
--
- Tim Bray (If you=E2=80= =99d like to send me a private message, see https://keybase.io/timbray)

_______________________________________________
json mailing list
json@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json


--001a11c1276624c26e04fa2c29ad-- From nobody Sat May 24 15:37:27 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCEFA1A00C2 for ; Sat, 24 May 2014 15:37:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.044 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.044 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EwvGH3ABRtGD for ; Sat, 24 May 2014 15:37:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a29.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0D4B1A00B5 for ; Sat, 24 May 2014 15:37:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a29.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a29.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC5E6674058 for ; Sat, 24 May 2014 15:37:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s= cryptonector.com; bh=DMCus6vYMeQps+RJmx/1hT5J+TQ=; b=Q3n5lASOJDq 4vxUT+N5tIey3vwxsey7uSmc2HInYy8Ibh4ksxpw95oTqigupkFRYWhITYX0c4KJ GYwlLRamkGvTsWiXvMAxPhtJon/1qlhkUr+p1bP0CiQO1Oh6ifdTrUq/4v0yN/CS 2HrLJuZjayZtvcONqcuio201hbfN1DFM= Received: from mail-wi0-f173.google.com (mail-wi0-f173.google.com [209.85.212.173]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a29.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7FE2E674057 for ; Sat, 24 May 2014 15:37:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wi0-f173.google.com with SMTP id bs8so2483475wib.12 for ; Sat, 24 May 2014 15:37:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.212.77 with SMTP id ni13mr14205292wic.5.1400971041236; Sat, 24 May 2014 15:37:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.29.200 with HTTP; Sat, 24 May 2014 15:37:21 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4E4FB86A-7DD7-462D-83F7-1FAFD947FF46@tzi.org> References: <537EF070.6060503@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <4E4FB86A-7DD7-462D-83F7-1FAFD947FF46@tzi.org> Date: Sat, 24 May 2014 17:37:21 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: Carsten Bormann Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/LBsSFd-gJQ5oi_7JZGSxEezBorQ Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2E_D=C3=BCrst?= , Paul Hoffman , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] Working Group Last Call on draft-ietf-json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 24 May 2014 22:37:26 -0000 On Sat, May 24, 2014 at 12:02 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote: > On 23 May 2014, at 08:53, Martin J. D=C3=BCrst w= rote: > >> it's not too difficult to parse the delimiters separately and only have = the values parsed by a JSON parser > > Indeed. I continue to believe that this is the only reasonable way to op= erate on sequences of JSON instances. > Either jq has no problems using LF. LF is only a problem if you have corrupted entries, which is only really a problem for logfiles. Nico -- From nobody Sun May 25 16:05:50 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9485E1A0408 for ; Sun, 25 May 2014 16:05:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.455 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.455 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, J_CHICKENPOX_41=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id T67Ee6fOfJky for ; Sun, 25 May 2014 16:05:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a54.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 035EB1A035A for ; Sun, 25 May 2014 16:05:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a54.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a54.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50B124012373F for ; Sun, 25 May 2014 16:05:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; s= cryptonector.com; bh=ZIMmG6DYBmAg8Cr66r93plMKT5o=; b=my7DPBLkGmZ toWt7b2krVx16SR9p2uNYk8i+xZ65Bzi20n6RVvnEz18/hF9P2ICb8w0y/37RvV2 FSRkFhkQoPU+ZT5oqfoZZioh82rlHqGY96rV84K9VcWZ8PGE5ivW/3YEZ0d7sLYP F2c+A3OaTrySu6x7Y2+YAcGGQsiEaRMI= Received: from mail-wg0-f50.google.com (mail-wg0-f50.google.com [74.125.82.50]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a54.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0097B40123736 for ; Sun, 25 May 2014 16:05:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wg0-f50.google.com with SMTP id x12so7121938wgg.21 for ; Sun, 25 May 2014 16:05:43 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.12.135 with SMTP id y7mr22326352wib.39.1401059143579; Sun, 25 May 2014 16:05:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.29.200 with HTTP; Sun, 25 May 2014 16:05:43 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 25 May 2014 18:05:43 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: Carsten Bormann Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/6JDiXvrxt0vSvl7nve64rozQvug Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2E_D=C3=BCrst?= , Paul Hoffman , IETF JSON WG Subject: [Json] Using a non-whitespace separator (Re: Working Group Last Call on draft-ietf-json-text-sequence) X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 May 2014 23:05:48 -0000 I actually like the idea, but I'm concerned about backwards compatibility for jq. Help me reason through this. Help sell me on this. Currently my thinking is that for backwards compatibility reasons I'd want to to make this RECOMMENDED though, not REQUIRED, except for cases where incomplete writes are a potential problem. In jq this would be an option to either use or maybe not use this new separator. Another option is to say that encoders MUST use the new separator, but parsers MAY/SHOULD/MUST handle sequences with a missing separator (as jq does; see below). jq would still have an encoding option, but when not emitting the new separator the result just wouldn't be a JSON text sequence. FWIW, this is what the jq processor does to handle sequences: it reads input bytes, feeds them to its parser (which works incrementally, but isn't streaming), and passes each parsed output to the jq VM to use as an input to the jq program. Output values of the jq program are encoded as JSON texts, printed, and then a newline is printed. The jq processor has no special handling of newlines on input. If there's any bytes left over from parsing a previous text, they are used in the next parse. Whitespace is just whitespace. The only special thing that the jq processor does is to print a newline after each text on output. This means that jq can handle JSON text sequences with any whitespace separator, and even no separator when there would be no ambiguity: % /jq -c .< X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 821801A0345 for ; Sun, 25 May 2014 16:09:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.251 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.251 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id H8VfB21asP-0 for ; Sun, 25 May 2014 16:09:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0060C1A0260 for ; Sun, 25 May 2014 16:09:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1WohXf-0002U1-Uo; Sun, 25 May 2014 19:09:24 -0400 Date: Sun, 25 May 2014 19:09:23 -0400 From: John Cowan To: Nico Williams Message-ID: <20140525230923.GH3243@mercury.ccil.org> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Sender: John Cowan Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/TkUseGBhpTwWZUq_MIGX3xp63kQ Cc: Carsten Bormann , IETF JSON WG , Martin =?iso-8859-1?Q?J=2E_D=FCrst?= , Paul Hoffman Subject: Re: [Json] Using a non-whitespace separator (Re: Working Group Last Call on draft-ietf-json-text-sequence) X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 25 May 2014 23:09:37 -0000 Nico Williams scripsit: > I could teach jq how to parse a non-whitespace control character > separator; that's easy enough. The question is: how to handle > backwards compatibility? The obvious answer is: add an option. But > which way should it default? Toward the standard, because the future of jq is longer than its past. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org Any day you [see] all five woodpeckers is a good day. --Elliotte Rusty Harold From nobody Mon May 26 00:06:45 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 539AE1A0029 for ; Mon, 26 May 2014 00:06:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.457 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.457 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.001, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MFNGRGDcGnvt for ; Mon, 26 May 2014 00:06:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scintmta01-14.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scintmta01-14.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.253.64]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF4411A0028 for ; Mon, 26 May 2014 00:06:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmeg01-14.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmeg01-14.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.253.15]) by scintmta01-14.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F30632E4AD; Mon, 26 May 2014 16:06:37 +0900 (JST) Received: from itmail2.it.aoyama.ac.jp (unknown [133.2.206.134]) by scmeg01-14.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp with smtp id 285f_8017_ff52c4cc_db4f_4bc9_aa55_81e3a7bd3306; Mon, 26 May 2014 16:06:36 +0900 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (unknown [133.2.210.1]) by itmail2.it.aoyama.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id C60DFBF509; Mon, 26 May 2014 16:06:36 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <5382E7EF.3030802@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Mon, 26 May 2014 16:06:23 +0900 From: =?UTF-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)" , Nico Williams , Paul Hoffman References: <535EB119.4000908@cisco.com> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E1154581E82F@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> <537BB89E.2040305@cisco.com> <3CA1A8E2-341B-4E09-AC4F-30E427916F1B@vpnc.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/DlJCowx7B2P8GMISsoY0uOrPWBI Cc: IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] I-JSON Tpic #2: Top-Level X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 May 2014 07:06:44 -0000 On 2014/05/22 01:46, Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr) wrote: > I just tried it with the stock Ruby on an up-to-date Mac, and it still > fails. We might have stopped looking when we found a mainstream > implementation that broke. I just submitted a bug report, please see https://github.com/flori/json/issues/206. I don't have a clue how quickly, and with how much of a need for options, this will be fixed. Regards, Martin. From nobody Tue May 27 09:45:20 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5A8A1A01A0 for ; Tue, 27 May 2014 09:45:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.152 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.152 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Qy9fegleWHje for ; Tue, 27 May 2014 09:45:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-8.cisco.com (alln-iport-8.cisco.com [173.37.142.95]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9A1881A019F for ; Tue, 27 May 2014 09:45:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1936; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1401209113; x=1402418713; h=message-id:date:from:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=9iVGI6DliGdHQqnaPUxK5z/geu9Rz6s4nuO7hfWVZeg=; b=XpHDU1NyZ/WVxE8UPjSrezScKTSXO+AgxP+EtQrOtaCel1M0E7T3W66t qNH8B51uItro0rmUljtOyCXVjewIZDfR1lJ3MCn7fpDiJ+l+gJzgkqnLH JJchZ9LCo+pvV/hLvhlYHxegg+uJTmUKUQWhaCBp2v2Ve18jPq+H3GydR k=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AtIHALO/hFOtJV2T/2dsb2JhbABZgwdSWKoCAQEBAQEBBQGYDAGBDhZ0giUBAQEEeAEQCxgJFg8JAwIBAgFFBgEMAQUCAQGIPtUPF4VViEozB4RAAQOJZzqPUpMng1eCEA X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.98,920,1392163200"; d="scan'208";a="47620398" Received: from rcdn-core-11.cisco.com ([173.37.93.147]) by alln-iport-8.cisco.com with ESMTP; 27 May 2014 16:45:12 +0000 Received: from xhc-rcd-x05.cisco.com (xhc-rcd-x05.cisco.com [173.37.183.79]) by rcdn-core-11.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s4RGjCkm031472 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Tue, 27 May 2014 16:45:12 GMT Received: from MAMILLE2-M-T03K.CISCO.COM (10.129.24.57) by xhc-rcd-x05.cisco.com (173.37.183.79) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.123.3; Tue, 27 May 2014 11:45:12 -0500 Message-ID: <5384C118.4060402@cisco.com> Date: Tue, 27 May 2014 10:45:12 -0600 From: Matt Miller User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nico Williams , Tim Bray References: <535EB3BF.8080606@cisco.com> <537A5BE0.3020406@cisco.com> <488AE66E-725D-40B3-9FDA-ADA1018BCF65@tzi.org> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E115461FFE59@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> <20140521020731.GG9283@mercury.ccil.org> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E1154629E87D@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: [10.129.24.57] Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/Q8WKpRDEywhrXcK2n2no1fRevDs Cc: IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] I-JSON Topic #5: Numbers X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 May 2014 16:45:18 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 On 5/22/14, 10:14 AM, Nico Williams wrote: > My proposal is to reference IEEE 754 and perhaps have some > informative references to various web pages detailing the > limitations of IEEE 754 doubles. Then state that any numbers which > cannot be represented -by JSON implementations that use IEEE 754 > doubles- with sufficient precision/accuracy/fidelity SHOULD NOT > (MUST NOT?) be sent as JSON numbers. > > Alternatively, find a suitable external, informative reference to > the limitations of IEEE 754, get permission to copy its text, then > paste it in. > > Or, if IEEE 754 covers these issues in sufficient detail, then > just normatively reference IEEE 754 and call it a day. > > If IEEE 754 does not cover these issues in sufficient detail then > we probably could do with a generic RFC on the matter... > > Nico -- > Nico, do you have any concrete suggestions of text? It would appear that John Cowan's is very close; what changes would you propose over that? I've been told off-list that IEEE 754 (which is referenced from RFC 7159, in case we've all forgotten) doesn't cover this topic at all, and my own superficial review leads me to concur. - -- - - m&m Matt Miller < mamille2@cisco.com > Cisco Systems, Inc. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.22 (Darwin) Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQEcBAEBCgAGBQJThMEYAAoJEDWi+S0W7cO1pC0IALNI/p+UgtYSP94I5XcsWoRm +m3dUPeOHYcC35DG0RfVx7rapBdPPKjnriCT6KPdRPmc6GDtkBg6HUfLs90e+Sxp i5S0LIaokCVasiq2U4m9J84uQQgJl+fAFA7YPAs0F8QMnIpqIcq2RTgWqSqdL8xv OSgERXwyAaVtqfZ0wq1yFx6yVyVDkc9VVnhzb/2jjIHWQWzTlZpfQ4jYIpJ4h/vD FEzjV5DBRdjIZpJCBMM+Y86n+Nw/aXtcodmPuVcx1aBm/ZIjrNQ2lowXuWVi7lWI lSPNJxbW3uCgH69gv8nSc3uriyeoOBpUdRhoGEblLXDMttABHXsewxlbZDcNSKQ= =BA5P -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From nobody Tue May 27 10:27:56 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C1791A01BA for ; Tue, 27 May 2014 10:27:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AG1EsXUo6X0Y for ; Tue, 27 May 2014 10:27:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 67CF01A01AF for ; Tue, 27 May 2014 10:27:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s4RHRSfY001817; Tue, 27 May 2014 19:27:28 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.217.148] (p54892D14.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.137.45.20]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A5A9E1D97; Tue, 27 May 2014 19:27:27 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.2\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <5384C118.4060402@cisco.com> Date: Tue, 27 May 2014 19:27:26 +0200 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 422904446.038891-d94cdab6d06d150fcfc1df6004d0fae6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <14DB352D-3D0C-458A-90BE-38BCA8CC98DD@tzi.org> References: <535EB3BF.8080606@cisco.com> <537A5BE0.3020406@cisco.com> <488AE66E-725D-40B3-9FDA-ADA1018BCF65@tzi.org> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E115461FFE59@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> <20140521020731.GG9283@mercury.ccil.org> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E1154629E87D@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> <5384C118.4060402@cisco.com> To: Matt Miller X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.2) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/-fIzoXPuWQJrCXGO7Gd6HsR5m78 Cc: Nico Williams , Tim Bray , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] I-JSON Topic #5: Numbers X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 May 2014 17:27:54 -0000 On 27 May 2014, at 18:45, Matt Miller wrote: > I've been told off-list that IEEE 754 (which is referenced from RFC > 7159, in case we've all forgotten) doesn't cover this topic at all, > and my own superficial review leads me to concur. IEEE Std 754-2008 describes a number of formats, and binary64 (the one = that JavaScript and thus many JSON implementations uses) is just one of = them. You need to combine some basic CS knowledge with the specific = constants for binary64 inserted into the generic formulae given before = you can derive much meaningful information from IEEE Std 754-2008. An obvious reference (heed the title!) is David Goldberg: What Every Computer Scientist Should Know About = Floating-Point Arithmetic, Computing Surveys, March, 1991. (reprint available from: = http://docs.oracle.com/cd/E19957-01/806-3568/ncg_goldberg.html ). That does discuss binary64 (not under this name), but does not benefit = from the recent changes to IEEE 754. It is also probably more accessible to CS people than to the general = public. =9395% of the folks out there are completely clueless about = floating-point.=94=20 (James Gosling 1998-02-28, as attributed by William Kahan) We cannot fix this in this draft. What we can do is warn that the only numbers that have a good chance to = be taken as exact numbers are the integers in [-2**53, 2**53], and that = all numbers in many implementations are subject to the whims of floating = point arithmetic as defined for binary64 in IEEE Std 754-2008. I wouldn=92t try to go beyond that. (In particular I=92d not single out = denorms, but I think I said that already.) Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten From nobody Tue May 27 10:45:08 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBFE71A01BB for ; Tue, 27 May 2014 10:45:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MSmbLFJUjjYh for ; Tue, 27 May 2014 10:45:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ve0-f173.google.com (mail-ve0-f173.google.com [209.85.128.173]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 252261A0527 for ; Tue, 27 May 2014 10:45:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ve0-f173.google.com with SMTP id pa12so11206251veb.32 for ; Tue, 27 May 2014 10:44:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=eFpicFU7l6o7RxSHDBz+39d/8mP+1ZkSh1HwuQsH68E=; b=c+ruszIbFwFY8tg5Gzt3AvbfAtbEJswLD8D7dnzDRjdF5AkW9uP80wALeuGdylx76I j7lMUfwep87YEeJJuaTedvTK7C94INeBraLu2FUe6uD7FWB1gDXM/OqrSN4/bdtr5aPm /KOzyr1VQBWoVVkGP5HdTx4//KJaCrEijN++7OgWV/KAtJe/khVQ/k5AJGY7XducOkJw f4/gMXmiejsPTTwQjhHM5lFq+6NKNyIWPt10aL8NsFjsYF6p//F7JBIePvcWMqYxd0bg bVBP78FdbFu1SiICXLYXxOi1+LA9WsYcD8ZMezM6LNHjRDcep/QAzG1o3k/fJHRbvyxH YbgQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlSTHEpeIxHUbepmuBJNGlxtEDMIvQd46GVLtwn3VdDxA1nMsAXHwwk0zGbCHciJhNSzirY X-Received: by 10.220.166.211 with SMTP id n19mr2393033vcy.69.1401212699453; Tue, 27 May 2014 10:44:59 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.98.73 with HTTP; Tue, 27 May 2014 10:44:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [24.85.103.37] In-Reply-To: <14DB352D-3D0C-458A-90BE-38BCA8CC98DD@tzi.org> References: <535EB3BF.8080606@cisco.com> <537A5BE0.3020406@cisco.com> <488AE66E-725D-40B3-9FDA-ADA1018BCF65@tzi.org> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E115461FFE59@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> <20140521020731.GG9283@mercury.ccil.org> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E1154629E87D@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> <5384C118.4060402@cisco.com> <14DB352D-3D0C-458A-90BE-38BCA8CC98DD@tzi.org> From: Tim Bray Date: Tue, 27 May 2014 12:44:39 -0500 Message-ID: To: Carsten Bormann Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b34344834c2bd04fa65413f Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/vpWmY-0YDRx8o1_mdCp_h8hMdh0 Cc: Nico Williams , IETF JSON WG , Matt Miller Subject: Re: [Json] I-JSON Topic #5: Numbers X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 May 2014 17:45:06 -0000 --047d7b34344834c2bd04fa65413f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just to make it clear. The WG is looking at three options: - leave it like it is in draft-i-json-01 - Add John=E2=80=99s paragraph: "An I-JSON sender MUST NOT expect a receive= r to treat a non-zero number whose absolute value is greater than 1e308 or less than 1e-308 as an exact value. Furthermore, an I-JSON sender MUST NOT expect a receiver to treat an integer whose absolute value is greater than 9007199254740992 as an exact value." - Add some more text; there=E2=80=99s been some arm-waving on the mailing l= ist, but no actual proposals that I could crystallize into spec text. On Tue, May 27, 2014 at 12:27 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote: > On 27 May 2014, at 18:45, Matt Miller wrote: > > > I've been told off-list that IEEE 754 (which is referenced from RFC > > 7159, in case we've all forgotten) doesn't cover this topic at all, > > and my own superficial review leads me to concur. > > IEEE Std 754-2008 describes a number of formats, and binary64 (the one > that JavaScript and thus many JSON implementations uses) is just one of > them. You need to combine some basic CS knowledge with the specific > constants for binary64 inserted into the generic formulae given before yo= u > can derive much meaningful information from IEEE Std 754-2008. > > An obvious reference (heed the title!) is > > David Goldberg: What Every Computer Scientist Should Know About > Floating-Point Arithmetic, Computing Surveys, March, 1991. > > (reprint available from: > http://docs.oracle.com/cd/E19957-01/806-3568/ncg_goldberg.html ). > That does discuss binary64 (not under this name), but does not benefit > from the recent changes to IEEE 754. > It is also probably more accessible to CS people than to the general > public. > > =E2=80=9C95% of the folks out there are completely clueless about floatin= g-point.=E2=80=9D > (James Gosling 1998-02-28, as attributed by William Kahan) > > We cannot fix this in this draft. > > What we can do is warn that the only numbers that have a good chance to b= e > taken as exact numbers are the integers in [-2**53, 2**53], and that all > numbers in many implementations are subject to the whims of floating poin= t > arithmetic as defined for binary64 in IEEE Std 754-2008. > I wouldn=E2=80=99t try to go beyond that. (In particular I=E2=80=99d not= single out > denorms, but I think I said that already.) > > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > > --=20 - Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a private message, see https://keybase.io/timbray) --047d7b34344834c2bd04fa65413f Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jus= t to make it clear. The WG is looking at three options:

- leave it like it is in draft-i-json-01
- Add John=E2=80=99s paragraph: "An I-JSON s= ender MUST NOT expect a receiver to treat a non-zero number whose absolute = value is greater than 1e308 or less than 1e-308 as an exact value. =C2=A0Fu= rthermore, an I-JSON sender MUST NOT expect a receiver to treat an integer = whose absolute value is greater than 9007199254740992 as an exact value.&qu= ot;
- Add some more text= ; there=E2=80=99s been some arm-waving on the mailing list, but no actual p= roposals that I could crystallize into spec text.=C2=A0


=


On Tue,= May 27, 2014 at 12:27 PM, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> wrote:<= br>
On 27 May 2014, at 18:45, Ma= tt Miller <mamille2@cisco.com&= gt; wrote:

> I've been told off-list that IEEE 754 (which is referenced from RF= C
> 7159, in case we've all forgotten) doesn't cover this topic at= all,
> and my own superficial review leads me to concur.

IEEE Std 754-2008 describes a number of formats, and binary64 (the on= e that JavaScript and thus many JSON implementations uses) is just one of t= hem. =C2=A0You need to combine some basic CS knowledge with the specific co= nstants for binary64 inserted into the generic formulae given before you ca= n derive much meaningful information from IEEE Std 754-2008.

An obvious reference (heed the title!) is

David Goldberg: What Every Computer Scientist Should Know About Floating-Po= int Arithmetic, Computing Surveys, March, 1991.

(reprint available from: http://docs.oracle.com/cd/E19957= -01/806-3568/ncg_goldberg.html ).
That does discuss binary64 (not under this name), but does not benefit from= the recent changes to IEEE 754.
It is also probably more accessible to CS people than to the general public= .

=E2=80=9C95% of the folks out there are completely clueless about floating-= point.=E2=80=9D
(James Gosling 1998-02-28, as attributed by William Kahan)

We cannot fix this in this draft.

What we can do is warn that the only numbers that have a good chance to be = taken as exact numbers are the integers in [-2**53, 2**53], and that all nu= mbers in many implementations are subject to the whims of floating point ar= ithmetic as defined for binary64 in IEEE Std 754-2008.
I wouldn=E2=80=99t try to go beyond that. =C2=A0(In particular I=E2=80=99d = not single out denorms, but I think I said that already.)

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten




--
- Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a private message, s= ee https://keybase= .io/timbray)
--047d7b34344834c2bd04fa65413f-- From nobody Tue May 27 10:48:30 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 881E91A01E1 for ; Tue, 27 May 2014 10:48:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Oy0cxJ2rP1TG for ; Tue, 27 May 2014 10:48:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A9EDD1A01C5 for ; Tue, 27 May 2014 10:48:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s4RHm8ZK011126; Tue, 27 May 2014 19:48:08 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.217.148] (p54892D14.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.137.45.20]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 822B11DAA; Tue, 27 May 2014 19:48:07 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.2\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 27 May 2014 19:48:06 +0200 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 422905685.970984-e0d3e35e8620c8dbf7f5a2ef2600b4d5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <535EB3BF.8080606@cisco.com> <537A5BE0.3020406@cisco.com> <488AE66E-725D-40B3-9FDA-ADA1018BCF65@tzi.org> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E115461FFE59@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> <20140521020731.GG9283@mercury.ccil.org> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E1154629E87D@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> <5384C118.4060402@cisco.com> <14DB352D-3D0C-458A-90BE-38BCA8CC98DD@tzi.org> To: Tim Bray X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.2) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/SpiN8gQznD9gwdBg4xzA3Cf9Ous Cc: Nico Williams , IETF JSON WG , Matt Miller Subject: Re: [Json] I-JSON Topic #5: Numbers X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 May 2014 17:48:27 -0000 On 27 May 2014, at 19:44, Tim Bray wrote: > An I-JSON sender MUST NOT expect a receiver to treat a non-zero number = whose absolute value is greater than 1e308 or less than 1e-308 as an = exact value. =20 I think James and I have successfully argued that this sentence is = broken. I have just argued that this gives a false sense of covering the issues. Just to throw in one more issue if we want to go that far: maybe we want = to mention that lots of fun can be had by interchanging = 2.2250738585072011e-308 or 2.2250738585072012e-308? Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten From nobody Tue May 27 10:52:36 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 399491A04F8 for ; Tue, 27 May 2014 10:52:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.152 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.152 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zDOmkST8akAe for ; Tue, 27 May 2014 10:52:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-7.cisco.com (alln-iport-7.cisco.com [173.37.142.94]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2B3BB1A04DC for ; Tue, 27 May 2014 10:52:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1520; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1401213145; x=1402422745; h=message-id:date:from:mime-version:to:cc:subject: references:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=qL7MFoBLBebu6I0HgFwB0eSsfR6eENHsOMIyZp9UpB4=; b=YzvcBj/N2cMWrHUtNcjdfhqyP93nFRhrHnDOsbswB1tAg3mOJmNORclA fqnCgaidgRvjGvQ0yeGePY0ctwjWh0z+548uK6rasHLYn5t4II8ohvwMN aMSRCQgML0ry9wbGUOduv4DGtxrv+WcfB4lyt85WrksNnTTnzmMvlW9qN g=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AjYHAIfQhFOtJV2S/2dsb2JhbABZgwdSWKl5DAEBAQEBBQGYDAGBDhZ0giUBAQEEMgFFARALDgoJFg8JAwIBAgFFBgEMAQUCAQGIPtU5F4VViEozB4RAAQOJZzqPUpMng1eCEA X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.98,921,1392163200"; d="scan'208";a="47636505" Received: from rcdn-core-10.cisco.com ([173.37.93.146]) by alln-iport-7.cisco.com with ESMTP; 27 May 2014 17:52:03 +0000 Received: from xhc-rcd-x05.cisco.com (xhc-rcd-x05.cisco.com [173.37.183.79]) by rcdn-core-10.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s4RHq3Em020316 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Tue, 27 May 2014 17:52:03 GMT Received: from MAMILLE2-M-T03K.CISCO.COM (10.129.24.57) by xhc-rcd-x05.cisco.com (173.37.183.79) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.123.3; Tue, 27 May 2014 12:52:03 -0500 Message-ID: <5384D0C2.7030407@cisco.com> Date: Tue, 27 May 2014 11:52:02 -0600 From: Matt Miller User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Carsten Bormann , Tim Bray References: <535EB3BF.8080606@cisco.com> <537A5BE0.3020406@cisco.com> <488AE66E-725D-40B3-9FDA-ADA1018BCF65@tzi.org> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E115461FFE59@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> <20140521020731.GG9283@mercury.ccil.org> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E1154629E87D@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> <5384C118.4060402@cisco.com> <14DB352D-3D0C-458A-90BE-38BCA8CC98DD@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: [10.129.24.57] Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/gG7k3YBE576oEa4F-KZ9ebeU6v4 Cc: Nico Williams , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] I-JSON Topic #5: Numbers X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 May 2014 17:52:31 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 On 5/27/14, 11:48 AM, Carsten Bormann wrote: > On 27 May 2014, at 19:44, Tim Bray wrote: > >> An I-JSON sender MUST NOT expect a receiver to treat a non-zero >> number whose absolute value is greater than 1e308 or less than >> 1e-308 as an exact value. > > I think James and I have successfully argued that this sentence is > broken. > > I have just argued that this gives a false sense of covering the > issues. Just to throw in one more issue if we want to go that far: > maybe we want to mention that lots of fun can be had by > interchanging 2.2250738585072011e-308 or 2.2250738585072012e-308? > > Gre, Carsten > Carsten, Is your suggestion then to leave the text as-is? Or can you provide specific text to include? - -- - - m&m Matt Miller < mamille2@cisco.com > Cisco Systems, Inc. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.22 (Darwin) Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQEcBAEBCgAGBQJThNDCAAoJEDWi+S0W7cO133oH/j/lj/R44e0/DJlrXSAAnY3z wG01Y62+18pmUMWFrvdcAAjS3OoDF20yh39D7ZiyM02bAR/tzGt93OSw2La8yMFm 7R5eunbR+8DadOB3VAWM7ywyeqQ4fU0BqdNraGx0zw51DFMw4yAbOLEBwVk2wXRP jBThUHTP3d6LCArmdkitD10TPKLYojQXARXWfPYEmpNqK26+ZidjjNGWdtlOBgZI 6uT4q2FvZRyQhg99qbcgt9LrmngasaD+djGzh4YNF/kDA5JNxxqkjCrrF6qZGoyF FoOC/YV27LjIcL5B7x4YXJSxKc+B9JlD5xkUXT4EblaZslZz9gDuTMLNL1DaHVw= =pAbT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From nobody Tue May 27 11:43:54 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44C7B1A05E5 for ; Tue, 27 May 2014 11:43:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.251 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.251 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GhPL8TFRdJ8N for ; Tue, 27 May 2014 11:43:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D29D11A06BF for ; Tue, 27 May 2014 11:43:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1WpMLe-0001zo-2S; Tue, 27 May 2014 14:43:42 -0400 Date: Tue, 27 May 2014 14:43:42 -0400 From: John Cowan To: Carsten Bormann Message-ID: <20140527184341.GB16220@mercury.ccil.org> References: <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E115461FFE59@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> <20140521020731.GG9283@mercury.ccil.org> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E1154629E87D@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> <5384C118.4060402@cisco.com> <14DB352D-3D0C-458A-90BE-38BCA8CC98DD@tzi.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Sender: John Cowan Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/yNjxAjCdcmLczmTnrXVdN1PKOrg Cc: Nico Williams , Matt Miller , Tim Bray , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] I-JSON Topic #5: Numbers X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 May 2014 18:43:53 -0000 Carsten Bormann scripsit: > > An I-JSON sender MUST NOT expect a receiver to treat a non-zero number > > whose absolute value is greater than 1e308 or less than 1e-308 as > > an exact value. > > I think James and I have successfully argued that this sentence is broken. I agree. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You are a child of the universe no less than the trees and all other acyclic graphs; you have a right to be here. --DeXiderata by Sean McGrath From nobody Tue May 27 12:00:27 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4562B1A06DA for ; Tue, 27 May 2014 12:00:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xHILLRtrH2wR for ; Tue, 27 May 2014 12:00:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ve0-f175.google.com (mail-ve0-f175.google.com [209.85.128.175]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D32AE1A06F2 for ; Tue, 27 May 2014 12:00:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ve0-f175.google.com with SMTP id jw12so11115746veb.6 for ; Tue, 27 May 2014 12:00:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=dZHqScxFywc5Pa3SFsKoBYI/XNBX2ymYFSYtHbtdJOo=; b=fBnljXUaDVzGXszUYVHjmHaMYfttfgIppliiOwsux4k5wUJMCXEXpXRDcDp/fHmckU 5gp/YclohTOOFi1hTiSn1HkTtD3+JelLLSARuq4d690mdaENSQ/PkWCE30Psoc/FJWSu c+VZW92jfBgCwgtKhxf1Xsy1RNAsd5UmSCcdof7Mk9nLIwplgttFdNpnE9eXre/T8GA1 N53hsH8SJiEYg4UD7b2022/+BpsopFXLTNbtlzoIfsmIQjRWkbeQNNdyctRbdVJ0aRxu 9y73VdgUQEpjbkaqRjUvB3SBTH+ryq5KXVND8n1yZ0m/21osgSSAbpCBks92sAe8Qic1 79NA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmCsaY8xXRPk3fVtsqB92So1IZqCtE3qTgl8bX7vrFKOyus+RfprTiuvrbc3DBzTSDKQnpJ X-Received: by 10.52.125.198 with SMTP id ms6mr24430370vdb.28.1401217218004; Tue, 27 May 2014 12:00:18 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.98.73 with HTTP; Tue, 27 May 2014 11:59:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [206.12.10.242] In-Reply-To: <20140527184341.GB16220@mercury.ccil.org> References: <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E115461FFE59@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> <20140521020731.GG9283@mercury.ccil.org> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E1154629E87D@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> <5384C118.4060402@cisco.com> <14DB352D-3D0C-458A-90BE-38BCA8CC98DD@tzi.org> <20140527184341.GB16220@mercury.ccil.org> From: Tim Bray Date: Tue, 27 May 2014 13:59:57 -0500 Message-ID: To: John Cowan Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec51a730c8860bd04fa664e8c Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/KyfiEXJZB9QnUZv6H8uTVo3DjvI Cc: Nico Williams , Carsten Bormann , Matt Miller , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] I-JSON Topic #5: Numbers X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 May 2014 19:00:24 -0000 --bcaec51a730c8860bd04fa664e8c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =E2=80=8BYou guys are convincing me we should leave the text the way it is. Except for maybe add a sentence along the lines of =E2=80=9CImplementors ar= e advised that the conversion between textual and binary representation of numeric quantities is known to be a source of difficulties and, in certain circumstances, data loss.=E2=80=9D A suitable read-more-here reference wou= ld be welcome; Maybe that Goldberg reference Carsten mentioned? On Tue, May 27, 2014 at 1:43 PM, John Cowan wrote: > Carsten Bormann scripsit: > > > > An I-JSON sender MUST NOT expect a receiver to treat a non-zero numbe= r > > > whose absolute value is greater than 1e308 or less than 1e-308 as > > > an exact value. > > > > I think James and I have successfully argued that this sentence is > broken. > > I agree. > > -- > John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org > You are a child of the universe no less than the trees and all other > acyclic > graphs; you have a right to be here. --DeXiderata by Sean McGrath > --=20 - Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a private message, see https://keybase.io/timbray) --bcaec51a730c8860bd04fa664e8c Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=E2= =80=8BYou guys are convincing me we should leave the text the way it is.

Except for maybe add a sentence along the lines of =E2=80=9CImplementors ar= e advised that the conversion between textual and binary representation of = numeric quantities is known to be a source of difficulties and, in certain = circumstances, data loss.=E2=80=9D =C2=A0A suitable read-more-here referenc= e would be welcome; Maybe that Goldberg reference Carsten mentioned?


On Tue,= May 27, 2014 at 1:43 PM, John Cowan <cowan@mercury.ccil.org><= /span> wrote:
Carsten Bormann scripsit:

> > An I-JSON sender MUST NOT expect a receiver to treat a non-zero n= umber
> > whose absolute value is greater than 1e308 or less than 1e-308 as=
> > an exact value.
>
> I think James and I have successfully argued that this sentence is bro= ken.

I agree.

--
John Cowan =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0http://www.ccil.org/~cowan =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0cowan@ccil.org
You are a child of the universe no less than the trees and all other = acyclic
graphs; you have a right to be here. =C2=A0--DeXiderata by Sean McGrath



--
- Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a private message, s= ee https://keybase= .io/timbray)
--bcaec51a730c8860bd04fa664e8c-- From nobody Tue May 27 12:17:41 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8A051A0698 for ; Tue, 27 May 2014 12:17:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xtzuNRS8TuJP for ; Tue, 27 May 2014 12:17:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A91F11A0664 for ; Tue, 27 May 2014 12:17:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s4RJHOr8000553; Tue, 27 May 2014 21:17:24 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.217.148] (p54892D14.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.137.45.20]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8E1301DE8; Tue, 27 May 2014 21:17:23 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.2\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <5384D0C2.7030407@cisco.com> Date: Tue, 27 May 2014 21:17:21 +0200 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 422911041.499976-73d4f690bd02ea5060f743c9643d16cc Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <62E6DC51-2D3D-4C55-89D8-19810347A9FB@tzi.org> References: <535EB3BF.8080606@cisco.com> <537A5BE0.3020406@cisco.com> <488AE66E-725D-40B3-9FDA-ADA1018BCF65@tzi.org> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E115461FFE59@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> <20140521020731.GG9283@mercury.ccil.org> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E1154629E87D@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> <5384C118.4060402@cisco.com> <14DB352D-3D0C-458A-90BE-38BCA8CC98DD@tzi.org> <5384D0C2.7030407@cisco.com> To: Matt Miller X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.2) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/INQNOI5Q9bZEijuroR3rLpTqFL4 Cc: Nico Williams , Tim Bray , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] I-JSON Topic #5: Numbers X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 May 2014 19:17:38 -0000 On 27 May 2014, at 19:52, Matt Miller wrote: > Is your suggestion then to leave the text as-is? Or can you provide > specific text to include? As I said, the second half of the proposed addition does add clarity: =C2=BBFurthermore, an I-JSON sender MUST NOT expect a receiver to treat = an integer whose absolute value is greater than 9007199254740992 as an = exact value.=C2=AB To be able to attach this right to the first paragraph of 2.2, maybe = s/Furthermore/In particular/. Also add the suggestion to call out that 9007199254740992 is 2**53: Software which implements IEEE 754-2008 binary64 (double precision) numbers [IEEE754] is generally available and widely used. Implementations which generate I-JSON messages MUST NOT assume that receiving implementations can process numeric values with greater magnitude or precision than provided by those numbers. I-JSON messages SHOULD NOT include numbers which express greater magnitude or precision than an IEEE 754 double precision number provides, for example 1E400 or 3.141592653589793238462643383279. =E2=9E=A7 In particular, an I-JSON sender MUST NOT expect a receiver = to treat an integer whose absolute value is greater than 9007199254740992 = (i.e.,=20 that is outside the range [-2**53, 2**53], where ** stands for = exponentiation) as an exact value. This then leads well into the next paragraph: For applications such as cryptography, where much larger numbers are reasonably required, it is RECOMMENDED to encode them in JSON string values. This requires that the receiving program understand the intended semantic of the value. Maybe s/where=E2=80=A6are/where exact interchange of=E2=80=A6is/ in = there for even more clarity. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Tue May 27 12:26:38 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57E1A1A0221 for ; Tue, 27 May 2014 12:26:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.251 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.251 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QUDKrK0OwzQX for ; Tue, 27 May 2014 12:26:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9AD391A020A for ; Tue, 27 May 2014 12:26:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1WpN0z-0006ZQ-Iz; Tue, 27 May 2014 15:26:25 -0400 Date: Tue, 27 May 2014 15:26:25 -0400 From: John Cowan To: Carsten Bormann Message-ID: <20140527192625.GC16220@mercury.ccil.org> References: <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E1154629E87D@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> <5384C118.4060402@cisco.com> <14DB352D-3D0C-458A-90BE-38BCA8CC98DD@tzi.org> <5384D0C2.7030407@cisco.com> <62E6DC51-2D3D-4C55-89D8-19810347A9FB@tzi.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <62E6DC51-2D3D-4C55-89D8-19810347A9FB@tzi.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Sender: John Cowan Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/-oXWpWAQanYfVTJk4Ion_w_P4Pw Cc: Nico Williams , IETF JSON WG , Tim Bray , Matt Miller Subject: Re: [Json] I-JSON Topic #5: Numbers X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 May 2014 19:26:36 -0000 Carsten Bormann scripsit: > Software which implements IEEE 754-2008 binary64 (double precision) > numbers [IEEE754] is generally available and widely used. > Implementations which generate I-JSON messages MUST NOT assume that > receiving implementations can process numeric values with greater > magnitude or precision than provided by those numbers. I-JSON > messages SHOULD NOT include numbers which express greater magnitude > or precision than an IEEE 754 double precision number provides, > for example 1E400 or 3.141592653589793238462643383279. In > particular, an I-JSON sender MUST NOT expect a receiver to treat > an integer whose absolute value is greater than 9007199254740992 > (i.e., that is outside the range [-2**53, 2**53], where ** stands > for exponentiation) as an exact value. > > This then leads well into the next paragraph: > > For applications such as cryptography, where exact interchange > of much larger numbers is reasonably required, it is RECOMMENDED to > encode them in JSON string values. This requires that the receiving > program understand the intended semantic of the value. +1 -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org So they play that [tune] on their fascist banjos, eh? --Great-Souled Sam From nobody Tue May 27 16:32:05 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 859371A07C0 for ; Tue, 27 May 2014 16:32:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.202 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.202 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_AU=0.377, HOST_EQ_AU=0.327, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RELAY_IS_203=0.994] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MY8amHMPZRaC for ; Tue, 27 May 2014 16:32:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ipxcvo.tcif.telstra.com.au (ipxcvo.tcif.telstra.com.au [203.35.135.208]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D76231A07AB for ; Tue, 27 May 2014 16:32:01 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.98,923,1392123600"; d="scan'208";a="15178757" Received: from unknown (HELO ipccvi.tcif.telstra.com.au) ([10.97.217.208]) by ipocvi.tcif.telstra.com.au with ESMTP; 28 May 2014 09:20:05 +1000 X-IronPort-AV: E=McAfee;i="5600,1067,7451"; a="225017219" Received: from wsmsg3757.srv.dir.telstra.com ([172.49.40.85]) by ipccvi.tcif.telstra.com.au with ESMTP; 28 May 2014 09:31:56 +1000 Received: from WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com ([172.49.40.159]) by wsmsg3757.srv.dir.telstra.com ([172.49.40.85]) with mapi; Wed, 28 May 2014 09:31:56 +1000 From: "Manger, James" To: Carsten Bormann , Matt Miller Date: Wed, 28 May 2014 09:31:54 +1000 Thread-Topic: [Json] I-JSON Topic #5: Numbers Thread-Index: Ac954FVy/l+DzaijQn+nfufEZlJo4QAI0SVA Message-ID: <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E11546508621@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> References: <535EB3BF.8080606@cisco.com> <537A5BE0.3020406@cisco.com> <488AE66E-725D-40B3-9FDA-ADA1018BCF65@tzi.org> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E115461FFE59@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> <20140521020731.GG9283@mercury.ccil.org> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E1154629E87D@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> <5384C118.4060402@cisco.com> <14DB352D-3D0C-458A-90BE-38BCA8CC98DD@tzi.org> <5384D0C2.7030407@cisco.com> <62E6DC51-2D3D-4C55-89D8-19810347A9FB@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: <62E6DC51-2D3D-4C55-89D8-19810347A9FB@tzi.org> Accept-Language: en-US, en-AU Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US, en-AU Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/WKhjonlm5kWt1Y3dfTh6ciJW_pY Cc: Nico Williams , Tim Bray , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] I-JSON Topic #5: Numbers X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 May 2014 23:32:03 -0000 KzEgdG8gQ2Fyc3RlbidzIHRleHQuDQoNCi0tLS0tDQogICBTb2Z0d2FyZSB3aGljaCBpbXBsZW1l bnRzIElFRUUgNzU0LTIwMDggYmluYXJ5NjQgKGRvdWJsZSBwcmVjaXNpb24pDQogICBudW1iZXJz IFtJRUVFNzU0XSBpcyBnZW5lcmFsbHkgYXZhaWxhYmxlIGFuZCB3aWRlbHkgdXNlZC4NCiAgIElt cGxlbWVudGF0aW9ucyB3aGljaCBnZW5lcmF0ZSBJLUpTT04gbWVzc2FnZXMgTVVTVCBOT1QgYXNz dW1lIHRoYXQNCiAgIHJlY2VpdmluZyBpbXBsZW1lbnRhdGlvbnMgY2FuIHByb2Nlc3MgbnVtZXJp YyB2YWx1ZXMgd2l0aCBncmVhdGVyDQogICBtYWduaXR1ZGUgb3IgcHJlY2lzaW9uIHRoYW4gcHJv dmlkZWQgYnkgdGhvc2UgbnVtYmVycy4gIEktSlNPTg0KICAgbWVzc2FnZXMgU0hPVUxEIE5PVCBp bmNsdWRlIG51bWJlcnMgd2hpY2ggZXhwcmVzcyBncmVhdGVyIG1hZ25pdHVkZQ0KICAgb3IgcHJl Y2lzaW9uIHRoYW4gYW4gSUVFRSA3NTQgZG91YmxlIHByZWNpc2lvbiBudW1iZXIgcHJvdmlkZXMs IGZvcg0KICAgZXhhbXBsZSAxRTQwMCBvciAzLjE0MTU5MjY1MzU4OTc5MzIzODQ2MjY0MzM4MzI3 OS4NCiAgIOKepyBJbiBwYXJ0aWN1bGFyLCBhbiBJLUpTT04gc2VuZGVyIE1VU1QgTk9UIGV4cGVj dCBhIHJlY2VpdmVyIHRvIHRyZWF0DQogICBhbiBpbnRlZ2VyIHdob3NlIGFic29sdXRlIHZhbHVl IGlzIGdyZWF0ZXIgdGhhbiA5MDA3MTk5MjU0NzQwOTkyIChpLmUuLCANCiAgIHRoYXQgaXMgb3V0 c2lkZSB0aGUgcmFuZ2UgWy0yKio1MywgMioqNTNdLCB3aGVyZSAqKiBzdGFuZHMgZm9yIGV4cG9u ZW50aWF0aW9uKQ0KICAgYXMgYW4gZXhhY3QgdmFsdWUuDQoNClRoaXMgdGhlbiBsZWFkcyB3ZWxs IGludG8gdGhlIG5leHQgcGFyYWdyYXBoOg0KDQogICBGb3IgYXBwbGljYXRpb25zIHN1Y2ggYXMg Y3J5cHRvZ3JhcGh5LCB3aGVyZSBtdWNoIGxhcmdlciBudW1iZXJzIGFyZQ0KICAgcmVhc29uYWJs eSByZXF1aXJlZCwgaXQgaXMgUkVDT01NRU5ERUQgdG8gZW5jb2RlIHRoZW0gaW4gSlNPTiBzdHJp bmcNCiAgIHZhbHVlcy4gIFRoaXMgcmVxdWlyZXMgdGhhdCB0aGUgcmVjZWl2aW5nIHByb2dyYW0g dW5kZXJzdGFuZCB0aGUNCiAgIGludGVuZGVkIHNlbWFudGljIG9mIHRoZSB2YWx1ZS4NCg0KTWF5 YmUgcy93aGVyZeKApmFyZS93aGVyZSBleGFjdCBpbnRlcmNoYW5nZSBvZuKApmlzLyBpbiB0aGVy ZSBmb3IgZXZlbiBtb3JlIGNsYXJpdHkuDQoNCkdyw7zDn2UsIENhcnN0ZW4NCg0K From nobody Wed May 28 10:34:08 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C848F1A0417 for ; 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bh=bVioL2/9EN9/kEXyXuQWB5CA8SgSaqY3bTCzzfiHMro=; b=j5VgRn8bZnzeMHBNh3ju8OJWosQ+12zfPXcG98piGg4ZxNibaY9qwQkE ePT1DIOKhj0FYOBeqUQQw7dk9AQI0P6R0qsXIl7KaWH85q7gHQytUWKKH CwPf0Ku2sRFjZ9XELbgb+tohsCJibJDgBfcmVeRGY22ylIbD48B4pJ462 A=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AsYGANochlOtJV2Y/2dsb2JhbABagwdSWKoCCwEBAQEBAQUBmA0BgQ0WdIImAQEEeBELIRYPCQMCAQIBRQYNBgIBAYg+1xkXhVWISjqEQAEDiiKPU5Mng1eCEA X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.98,929,1392163200"; d="scan'208";a="328381575" Received: from rcdn-core-1.cisco.com ([173.37.93.152]) by rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 28 May 2014 17:33:58 +0000 Received: from xhc-rcd-x05.cisco.com (xhc-rcd-x05.cisco.com [173.37.183.79]) by rcdn-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s4SHXwLB017772 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL) for ; Wed, 28 May 2014 17:33:58 GMT Received: from MAMILLE2-M-T03K.CISCO.COM (10.129.24.57) by xhc-rcd-x05.cisco.com (173.37.183.79) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.123.3; Wed, 28 May 2014 12:33:58 -0500 Message-ID: <53861E05.9070208@cisco.com> Date: Wed, 28 May 2014 11:33:57 -0600 From: Matt Miller User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: IETF JSON WG References: <535EB119.4000908@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <535EB119.4000908@cisco.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: [10.129.24.57] Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/QpxVxXyHYES6HrTY2wp9kcPHmh0 Subject: Re: [Json] I-JSON Topic #2: Top-Level X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 May 2014 17:34:05 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 Hello All, After another round of discussion, it appears there is rough consensus for restricting the top-level in I-JSON to object or array. The Chairs note consensus is rough here. Does anyone have additional arguments to make for or against what constitutes an I-JSON top-level? - -- - - m&m Matt Miller < mamille2@cisco.com > Cisco Systems, Inc. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.22 (Darwin) Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQEcBAEBCgAGBQJThh4FAAoJEDWi+S0W7cO19bgH/2KhplCVcPNTeowbFvHXBAyG 77fe/090hDAtLaDwJGQ6QcvN104Ov1fuMjkOJ7sniBGRcemUJq+RRZBIO9xzx5i6 ejYDOp26tQnfodR7lf0HXpCkeEdaX87jSjySDtsqwH1popqV5/JrPP4Ce26g5EcF Jo7VroNcrXJWyRYCCZAn5X660U4FUPMeRAxoBvXVRaJcR0rKziatbmkZpqADEqvs QPI0Wq29rI1dajaZNvGL5ZRtEQSlXmONjKucR0LqseN0Chq9U2AELquQcBl2+Q/C cdBFr71vVsnGfdboyQrr3rerOcsIR2jDzVv3fQ+vi/4oxxjP0EcgalQ1ZpMbtLI= =dJPJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From nobody Wed May 28 12:57:13 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62D921A00EA for ; Wed, 28 May 2014 12:57:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.277 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.277 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vSboYFfSPM_8 for ; Wed, 28 May 2014 12:57:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qg0-f52.google.com (mail-qg0-f52.google.com [209.85.192.52]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7D2421A007D for ; Wed, 28 May 2014 12:57:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qg0-f52.google.com with SMTP id a108so19659459qge.11 for ; Wed, 28 May 2014 12:57:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=eCwoObJlXNIAdEv+SUSUv4e+MgskyfinCaibDlPtXtU=; b=maW6tRWhkSNhN0aGRUj0WcwztS8SyqwBubVARmeUekQD7/lOuMq5zXL1+ezDxgRngr WeYDffMMfmsZAjCBu6boMnxT9EvBciqmnrn/usTV2b7Iwe7q/gmCtU0+YpQMXUwazYt9 uQfHIfDue4lf/nqBEV/L/ld42PJVaxNMBwBN+0uM2QuGbLYrk0aVGr+hbSLMn+FkUy/H jyu9ViIne5tP5B+T7XzfYAXH+nRJYF1gjSV2pI75o4pWuZA7LRXhn+Fn4Vf45I8dSnJn QBX02acKsWe8SqdZY/c+3DIj8dLHJp5K/piX2vKjnwM0FDiR0CvC8OYhAAXv8DGX+jHR iY+A== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQltGf438qyyVy3PGu3Ror+67UWMBsFAHYeBMZMX+ldJUXow9khbvp9xZaHnZ0MSNDw3yC1h MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.224.162.210 with SMTP id w18mr2797341qax.21.1401307023321; Wed, 28 May 2014 12:57:03 -0700 (PDT) Sender: mmorley@mpcm.com Received: by 10.140.89.180 with HTTP; Wed, 28 May 2014 12:57:03 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <53861E05.9070208@cisco.com> References: <535EB119.4000908@cisco.com> <53861E05.9070208@cisco.com> Date: Wed, 28 May 2014 15:57:03 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: AY2RX7xWzl0kuncM7dCJPIh05zA Message-ID: From: Matthew Morley To: Matt Miller Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e014948fa58e46804fa7b3715 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/seqAWdVnewD3Rp0ptoy98RB1tE4 Cc: IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] I-JSON Topic #2: Top-Level X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 May 2014 19:57:11 -0000 --089e014948fa58e46804fa7b3715 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 1:33 PM, Matt Miller wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA512 > > Hello All, > > After another round of discussion, it appears there is rough consensus > for restricting the top-level in I-JSON to object or array. The > Chairs note consensus is rough here. > > Does anyone have additional arguments to make for or against what > constitutes an I-JSON top-level? > No additional arguments from me, though I would prefer to see all types supported at the top level... but instead I'll post an observation from the RPC problem space. Given that I-JSON limits the top level to be an object or an array, then systems that generate results which are not those structures, therefore require encapsulation to be communicated at all. Meaning I can cannot respond with 42 and consider it a valid I-JSON (or JSON). Effectively this means all response data for such systems should be encapsulated, including objects or arrays, into a known response structure of some shape. The JSON-RPC specification does this with 'request' and 'response' objects, exactly for this reason and the desire to convey errors and other data. Thinking about RPC style protocols where local methods may be executed, with the method and params then turned into I-JSON, then shipped off to a processing end point, decoded, processed, re-encoded, sent back, decoded, and finally received to be handled and understood. In practice this means: - If the actual result of calling sum(40,2) is 42. - at the I-JSON layer it must look something like: {"result":42}. - If the result of calling object() is {}; - at the I-JSON layer it must look something like: {"result":{}}. With the top-level restriction in place, but without a standard structure: - non-structured data must be encapsulated: {"result":42} - structured data would be ambiguous: {} -or- {"result":{}} If you are in a system that uses function composition, it means you need to bake this into your expected types/categories, or have a design that handles and hides the encapsulation/decapsulation steps from the composition reasoning portion. I don't have (or plan) such a system, so this is outside my expertise, but imagine this being a limitation for those that might have/want such a system. (?) Though again, a limitation that can be overcome with standardized encapsulation. [...] -- Matthew P. C. Morley --089e014948fa58e46804fa7b3715 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On W= ed, May 28, 2014 at 1:33 PM, Matt Miller <mamille2@cisco.com> wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

Hello All,

After another round of discussion, it appears there is rough consensus
for restricting the top-level in I-JSON to object or array. =C2=A0The
Chairs note consensus is rough here.

Does anyone have additional arguments to make for or against what
constitutes an I-JSON top-level?

No add= itional arguments from me, though I would prefer to see all types supported= at the top level... but instead I'll post an observation from the RPC = problem space.

Given that I-JSON limits the top level to be an object = or an array, then systems that generate results which are not those structu= res, therefore require encapsulation to be communicated at all.

Meaning I can cannot respond with 42 and consider it a valid I-JSON (or JSO= N).

Effectively this means all response data for such systems should= be encapsulated, including objects or arrays, into a known response struct= ure of some shape. The JSON-RPC specification does this with 'request&#= 39; and 'response' objects, exactly for this reason and the desire = to convey errors and other data.

Thinking about RPC style protocols where local methods may be executed,= with the method and params then turned into I-JSON, then shipped off to a = processing end point, decoded, processed, re-encoded, sent back, decoded, a= nd finally received to be handled and understood.

In practice this means:
=C2=A0 - If the= actual result of calling sum(40,2) is 42.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - at the= I-JSON layer it must look something like: {"result":42}.
=C2=A0 - If the result of calling object() is {};
=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0- at the I-JSON layer it must look something like:= =C2=A0{"result":{}}.

With the top-level restriction= in place, but without a standard structure:
=C2=A0 - non-structu= red data must be encapsulated: {"result":42}
=C2=A0 - structured data would be ambiguous: {} -or- =C2=A0{"resu= lt":{}}

If you are in a system that uses function co= mposition, it means you need to bake this into your expected types/categori= es, or have a design that handles and hides the encapsulation/decapsulation= steps from the composition reasoning portion. I don't have (or plan) s= uch a system, so this is outside my expertise, but imagine this being a lim= itation for those that might have/want such a system. (?)

Though again, a limitation that can be overcome with st= andardized encapsulation.=C2=A0

[...]
=
--
Matthew P. C. Morley
--089e014948fa58e46804fa7b3715-- From nobody Wed May 28 14:54:14 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 864D71A06BD for ; Wed, 28 May 2014 14:54:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.043 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.043 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wQegyjkUhxl9 for ; Wed, 28 May 2014 14:54:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a105.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 384CA1A0272 for ; Wed, 28 May 2014 14:54:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a105.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a105.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 877E52007D834 for ; Wed, 28 May 2014 14:54:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:cc:content-type; s=cryptonector.com; bh=orm2L+mT1o/Vi/qQO0sC 6WQp7FI=; b=DlYbMXIXRwgPiIw9KdHgzZmNR24AoFjFLTCGZnrcVzfx6f0zlzzH x7Dp4qUUSCLi2dZNZgLoP2wKOh2VEn8SnFW/d1bHCdZ/gJ80WdVICSa+pzXhSJyu h9vmCsmmxQOqznzn2gBI+q7gGsQa+thuphRAV72v8q319DGntm3wPl0= Received: from mail-wg0-f44.google.com (mail-wg0-f44.google.com [74.125.82.44]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a105.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3CD0D2007D832 for ; Wed, 28 May 2014 14:54:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wg0-f44.google.com with SMTP id a1so11651084wgh.15 for ; Wed, 28 May 2014 14:54:01 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.120.68 with SMTP id la4mr3762715wjb.40.1401314041048; Wed, 28 May 2014 14:54:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.29.200 with HTTP; Wed, 28 May 2014 14:54:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.29.200 with HTTP; Wed, 28 May 2014 14:54:00 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <535EB119.4000908@cisco.com> <53861E05.9070208@cisco.com> Date: Wed, 28 May 2014 16:54:00 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: Matthew Morley Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e01160098a2ba9504fa7cd9b6 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/gJMegKmboB_cDsAJdXBVMWc-Thc Cc: "Matt Miller, \(mamille2\)" , json@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Json] I-JSON Topic #2: Top-Level X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 May 2014 21:54:07 -0000 --089e01160098a2ba9504fa7cd9b6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On May 28, 2014 3:57 PM, "Matthew Morley" wrote: >> Does anyone have additional arguments to make for or against what >> constitutes an I-JSON top-level? [...] > With the top-level restriction in place, but without a standard structure: > - non-structured data must be encapsulated: {"result":42} > - structured data would be ambiguous: {} -or- {"result":{}} > > If you are in a system that uses function composition, it means you need to bake this into your expected types/categories, or have a design that handles and hides the encapsulation/decapsulation steps from the composition reasoning portion. I don't have (or plan) such a system, so this is outside my expertise, but imagine this being a limitation for those that might have/want such a system. (?) Thanks for capturing this issue so clearly. Yes, superfluous encapsulation is obnoxious, particularly in systems with computable units not all of which produce the blessed output types. Remind me, what do we gain from this? Interop with old libraries that probably don't conform to I-JSON anyways and which stand a good chance of being fixed soon enough that this top-level restriction ends up buying us nothing a year hence. Please re-think this! Nico -- --089e01160098a2ba9504fa7cd9b6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On May 28, 2014 3:57 PM, "Matthew Morley" <matt@mpcm.com> wrote:
>> Does anyone have additional arguments to make for or against what<= br> >> constitutes an I-JSON top-level?

[...]

> With the top-level restriction in place, but without a = standard structure:
> =C2=A0 - non-structured data must be encapsulated: {"result"= :42}
> =C2=A0 - structured data would be ambiguous: {} -or- =C2=A0{"resu= lt":{}}
>
> If you are in a system that uses function composition, it means you ne= ed to bake this into your expected types/categories, or have a design that = handles and hides the encapsulation/decapsulation steps from the compositio= n reasoning portion. I don't have (or plan) such a system, so this is o= utside my expertise, but imagine this being a limitation for those that mig= ht have/want such a system. (?)

Thanks for capturing this issue so clearly.=C2=A0 Yes, super= fluous encapsulation is obnoxious, particularly in systems with computable = units not all of which produce the blessed output types.

Remind me, what do we gain from this?=C2=A0 Interop with old= libraries that probably don't conform to I-JSON anyways and which stan= d a good chance of being fixed soon enough that this top-level restriction = ends up buying us nothing a year hence.=C2=A0 Please re-think this!

Nico
--

--089e01160098a2ba9504fa7cd9b6-- From nobody Thu May 29 10:09:52 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEA251A09D3 for ; Thu, 29 May 2014 10:09:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.043 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.043 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vrm5E6KVSAvO for ; Thu, 29 May 2014 10:09:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a113.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DADA11A04C5 for ; Thu, 29 May 2014 10:09:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a113.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a113.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 056862007AE17 for ; Thu, 29 May 2014 10:09:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:cc:content-type; s=cryptonector.com; bh=Oq08jPmMHwyDWTlft86Z czmojKw=; b=ra8rzTCkZxoW5fVe8nd4PjsFOiQ1nHZerMELruJrogYueodg6SGX HVFs6Dt7dAUnQC6mKDZNdqCRDMu0kN8FzKPT0XaHdiGIXIywM6YGMIl6ROwpZfF0 HCcKo0aBYIZNZ2ieChwmid3PfTPRe/uf8/rXGtwgd5CSX/0Y8wgaQ24= Received: from mail-wg0-f43.google.com (mail-wg0-f43.google.com [74.125.82.43]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a113.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id AC89520047B7D for ; Thu, 29 May 2014 10:09:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wg0-f43.google.com with SMTP id l18so721034wgh.2 for ; Thu, 29 May 2014 10:09:42 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.77.225 with SMTP id v1mr60937701wiw.5.1401383382664; Thu, 29 May 2014 10:09:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.29.200 with HTTP; Thu, 29 May 2014 10:09:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.29.200 with HTTP; Thu, 29 May 2014 10:09:42 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <535EB119.4000908@cisco.com> <53861E05.9070208@cisco.com> Date: Thu, 29 May 2014 12:09:42 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: Matthew Morley Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d043c8246b7ce4a04fa8cfeb5 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/CwypWTNacLRKwe8fb3r47xWST_o Cc: "Matt Miller, \(mamille2\)" , json@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Json] I-JSON Topic #2: Top-Level X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 May 2014 17:09:49 -0000 --f46d043c8246b7ce4a04fa8cfeb5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 s/computable/composable/ autocorrect kills me. --f46d043c8246b7ce4a04fa8cfeb5 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8

s/computable/composable/

autocorrect kills me.

--f46d043c8246b7ce4a04fa8cfeb5-- From nobody Thu May 29 10:45:30 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86BF31A048A for ; Thu, 29 May 2014 10:45:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.278 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.278 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 98AkdH8Rloyl for ; Thu, 29 May 2014 10:45:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-we0-x22c.google.com (mail-we0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c03::22c]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 31A871A0450 for ; Thu, 29 May 2014 10:45:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-we0-f172.google.com with SMTP id k48so799615wev.3 for ; Thu, 29 May 2014 10:45:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=kjqDLa/hGHRoejXakac88Od590nJEiH3F4o7rTi8RnE=; b=g1xrbQH3L0WdLHyf4TU0mKwYuyjJsZ6v8KRaJ7fRoDuGCJ8nHMDCbb5iv6tQzRmFmb Yz88POzdM/UKcuxs+cA0i9CxP9g+12qdgnHnFTSJxMfGqoCu3TNqG0iW7Lj3ptDmRfER UWw4qbOe0BaMr3wtSYJGqD2GYsMIR9/cTdmCo4wvvoKKBwUIXKXMC/daDLsrYTs6bJMY YiB+nCHRRs6tAvzZ0ZGav/j6hv77ETEgmdfDMTZFLFL/Lfc6X5cH2Fjoa5EDD5rUzVVN IT/QdhJCfVoxFbRHqgBwvwYPoIKJzV8DFY4H/7bNI5zKA9rRwthM+zcQw8B5S0a/PpPJ e07g== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.38.107 with SMTP id f11mr39204959wik.59.1401385522195; Thu, 29 May 2014 10:45:22 -0700 (PDT) Sender: hallam@gmail.com Received: by 10.194.79.136 with HTTP; Thu, 29 May 2014 10:45:22 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <535EB119.4000908@cisco.com> <53861E05.9070208@cisco.com> Date: Thu, 29 May 2014 13:45:22 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: H_cR_0NnmQYSCRHfyZIw8xMk7lU Message-ID: From: Phillip Hallam-Baker To: Nico Williams Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/0ZL-KXCYnuVq3DiRHOFXB3pXBFI Cc: JSON WG , Matthew Morley , "Matt Miller, \(mamille2\)" Subject: Re: [Json] I-JSON Topic #2: Top-Level X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 29 May 2014 17:45:29 -0000 For protocols, I find the most convenient approach to be that the message type be a tag and the message data be the corresponding value. So if I have a protocol 'Fred' the HTTP binding is going to look like this: GET /.well-known/Fred/operation1 ... { "operation1" : { "tag1" : "value1" ... }} While it is possible to rely on the command value in the URI, this makes authentication a lot harder as the URI part of a request is likely to be 'damaged' by proxies and the like. So I much prefer that the command be a part of the JSON payload. This enables the use of message layer authentication. It also makes schemes of the form 'take command from Alice and lob it over to Carol along with the authorization from Bob'. It also removes the assumption that HTTP is the only legitimate binding for Web Services. I can see cases where it would be useful to have a scheme where the binding allows for an array of Web Service messages per binding message rather than just one. When I look at what my applications actually use from HTTP, it is basically: 1) The URL part 2) The session authentication header I defined as an extension 3) The Content-Length header for framing 4) Possibly the Content-Type in the future Everything else is just noise that is needed to get through proxies, firewalls and other nonsense that will never ever add value because we know the message type and the data is not static so it can't be cached. Rather than looking at HTTP/2 as the next platform for Web Services, it seems to me that we could do rather better with no headers at all rather than some whacky compression scheme. From nobody Fri May 30 09:13:44 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C31481A09D9 for ; Fri, 30 May 2014 09:13:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.152 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.152 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nTmloNIFmrJX for ; Fri, 30 May 2014 09:13:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-3.cisco.com (alln-iport-3.cisco.com [173.37.142.90]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CCB0F1A09C8 for ; 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Fri, 30 May 2014 16:13:38 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com ([169.254.15.76]) by xhc-rcd-x12.cisco.com ([173.37.183.86]) with mapi id 14.03.0123.003; Fri, 30 May 2014 11:13:38 -0500 From: "Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)" To: "json@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Proposal to move forward on acceptable roots Thread-Index: AQHPfCIcnVt0eHv8dUaR/61n4HNV1g== Date: Fri, 30 May 2014 16:13:37 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.4.1.140326 x-originating-ip: [10.129.24.156] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <82350AE3EE273E46AB502A4D48B8C45A@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/OUJuVjmTSzABOnmguqC8ycG73dw Subject: [Json] Proposal to move forward on acceptable roots X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 May 2014 16:13:43 -0000 T25lIHdheSB3ZSBjb3VsZCBnbyBvbiB0aGUgdG9waWMgb2Ygd2hhdCBnb2VzIGluIHRoZSByb290 IHRoYXQgd291bGQgd29yaw0KZm9yIG1lIHdvdWxkIGJlIGZvciB1cyB0byBhZGQgYSBub24tbm9y bWF0aXZlIHNlY3Rpb24gdG8gSS1KU09OIGdpdmluZw0KcHJvdG9jb2wgZGVzaWduIGFkdmljZSwg YW5kIG1vdmUgdGhlIGlzc3VlIG9mIHBvdGVudGlhbCBpbmNvbXBhdGliaWxpdHkgb2YNCm5vbi1b b2JqZWN0LGFycmF5XSByb290cyB0byB0aGF0IHNlY3Rpb24uDQoNCkludG8gdGhhdCBzZWN0aW9u LCB3ZSBjYW4gYWxzbyBwdXQgc29tZSBzdWdnZXN0aW9ucyBhYm91dCBob3cgdG8gZW5jb2RlDQpp bnRlZ2VycywgZmxvYXRzLCBhbmQgZGF0ZXMgaW4gc3RyaW5ncywgaG93IHRvIGRvIGZvcndhcmQt Y29tcGF0aWJpbGl0eQ0Kd2l0aCBvYmplY3RzIChNVVNUIGlnbm9yZSB3aGF0IHlvdSBkb24ndCB1 bmRlcnN0YW5kKSwgYW5kIHdoYXRldmVyIG90aGVyDQpwZWFybHMgb2Ygd2lzZG9tIHdlIGNvbWUg dXAgd2l0aC4NCg0KWWVzLCBJIGtub3cgdGhhdCB3aWxsIG1ha2UgdGhlIGRvY3VtZW50IHRha2Ug bG9uZ2VyLCBhbmQgb3BlbiB1cCBvdGhlcg0KYXJlYXMgZm9yIHVzIHRvIGFyZ3VlIGFib3V0Lg0K DQotLSANCkpvZSBIaWxkZWJyYW5kDQoNCg0KDQo= From nobody Fri May 30 09:16:22 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 580AB1A0441 for ; Fri, 30 May 2014 09:16:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ceFHXtbHxuxU for ; Fri, 30 May 2014 09:16:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vc0-f178.google.com (mail-vc0-f178.google.com [209.85.220.178]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ECECA1A03A0 for ; Fri, 30 May 2014 09:16:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vc0-f178.google.com with SMTP id ij19so2344227vcb.37 for ; Fri, 30 May 2014 09:16:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=dNlgF+jZLsty3YRNPWQf7OxAOEqou2KwuYuzvG2b4V8=; b=LqEmMl+vvpVZJeJfmHQnklfWRtpLYIiaNcqsxaQq0Fjcg1Wf8uD/F9v0ogcgdXTrU1 JBwJhIzBRrPlPdCGlG5fK0cg4pRPqEvIDRcek1HMsxKmzC/CHtYddfFw+hEJcn2js9um 1Kr/zguAlC4W51fJbpSnjOf8ZkCAQMPl5Tw2vdCGUUSCaaO+qAVIF4Bzg0xD8sycGDgR +JzZbUQvR8ene5xyQr/FyIkWqQzCU/fcZV7xyVMnC8XkPvA+X8ZFTgFETJ8OBS9hzrUb MUW7UX/wkL8qfAMB5nwYeeuHYZRDY9SDZGBIUyyNg5uMUobby1E3eDMwretlsJlzKL9l QOBQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkfkeLts2HWITBXJCuBI/sLsA8jv8YJyd/1DnNe+in2qYjNVRe7HQ7SevWVqrdf+y6UK3E4 X-Received: by 10.52.27.170 with SMTP id u10mr1934589vdg.69.1401466573916; Fri, 30 May 2014 09:16:13 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.98.73 with HTTP; Fri, 30 May 2014 09:15:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [24.84.235.32] In-Reply-To: References: From: Tim Bray Date: Fri, 30 May 2014 09:15:53 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf307c9d004da42604faa05d23 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/ld9Frpn74REcEEyQCoB1xjcLnyA Cc: "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] Proposal to move forward on acceptable roots X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 May 2014 16:16:20 -0000 --20cf307c9d004da42604faa05d23 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This doesn=E2=80=99t sound insane. =E2=80=8BI=E2=80=99ll try, over the next= few days, to draft such a section. If nothing good emerges, I think staying with the current language is still a good outcome. On Fri, May 30, 2014 at 9:13 AM, Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr) < jhildebr@cisco.com> wrote: > One way we could go on the topic of what goes in the root that would work > for me would be for us to add a non-normative section to I-JSON giving > protocol design advice, and move the issue of potential incompatibility o= f > non-[object,array] roots to that section. > > Into that section, we can also put some suggestions about how to encode > integers, floats, and dates in strings, how to do forward-compatibility > with objects (MUST ignore what you don't understand), and whatever other > pearls of wisdom we come up with. > > Yes, I know that will make the document take longer, and open up other > areas for us to argue about. > > -- > Joe Hildebrand > > > > _______________________________________________ > json mailing list > json@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json > --=20 - Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a private message, see https://keybase.io/timbray) --20cf307c9d004da42604faa05d23 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thi= s doesn=E2=80=99t sound insane. =E2=80=8BI=E2=80=99ll try, over the next fe= w days, to draft such a section. =C2=A0If nothing good emerges, I think sta= ying with the current language is still a good outcome.



On = Fri, May 30, 2014 at 9:13 AM, Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr) &= lt;jhildebr@cisco.c= om> wrote:
One way we could go on the topic of what goe= s in the root that would work
for me would be for us to add a non-normative section to I-JSON giving
protocol design advice, and move the issue of potential incompatibility of<= br> non-[object,array] roots to that section.

Into that section, we can also put some suggestions about how to encode
integers, floats, and dates in strings, how to do forward-compatibility
with objects (MUST ignore what you don't understand), and whatever othe= r
pearls of wisdom we come up with.

Yes, I know that will make the document take longer, and open up other
areas for us to argue about.

--
Joe Hildebrand



_______________________________________________
json mailing list
json@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json



--
- Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a priv= ate message, see h= ttps://keybase.io/timbray)
--20cf307c9d004da42604faa05d23-- From nobody Fri May 30 10:26:22 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B02D81A03C6 for ; Fri, 30 May 2014 10:26:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.278 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.278 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9m2Ya2VimTUu for ; Fri, 30 May 2014 10:26:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-we0-x22e.google.com (mail-we0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c03::22e]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5E9A21A011D for ; Fri, 30 May 2014 10:26:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-we0-f174.google.com with SMTP id k48so2351222wev.19 for ; Fri, 30 May 2014 10:26:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Du6DjuV6OCWKSo+LxCFZcfnTHb3j7MpTGrM0uIkT/NI=; b=eOKeX1Uwoqiru8xrCRbzZ+2DqxmqtB7NJcjWoBSyEg0vUFf1ShszWh+A5APr+tr/fg IWgbe9hGmgzfVkmuU+nSVbh/veMv2Qq5Rt/wtp0qNlWG3WnRf+Dxi8nNU7LuT6o5OPDR UXz2Cz+avaRc4yUYLQXOrcjPCbwc5RTijIV8WnqBtVPA6hOz0GFrXpUxfJVBqvCQwg9d UIAyzeSJORJqR1itjKEXYJyCAdCIt/vslcEPQ/jMFBC8fmjGJI6HGu7q/R0LzcM7RDbZ 9s8/Vq5e3WpOvL78TrisdT2y1U/Csbp6P9XfmaE8G1aktiZitREmj0CV/X8/9LG6U3Rt 4OSg== X-Received: by 10.180.78.71 with SMTP id z7mr9054895wiw.14.1401470774010; Fri, 30 May 2014 10:26:14 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: cromis@gmail.com Received: by 10.217.141.203 with HTTP; Fri, 30 May 2014 10:25:53 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Jacob Davies Date: Fri, 30 May 2014 10:25:53 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: I6OKw6bzXhHaF-FfGSeUMGvLrac Message-ID: To: Tim Bray Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/7BwzJb0eMC75c0Bjbr-NmJ8OKqA Cc: "Joe Hildebrand \(jhildebr\)" , "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] Proposal to move forward on acceptable roots X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 May 2014 17:26:20 -0000 I think non-normative (but strong) advice to use an object at the top-level and have must-ignore semantics (unless you have a really solid reason for doing otherwise) is an excellent idea. In particular advising the use of strings for 64-bit integers and pushing for ISO8601 for dates/times could help library authors converge on the encodings they use, which would definitely help interoperability. You could also include advice on binary encoding (presumably base-64). Not that JSON is a great format for binary data, but sometimes that's what you've got. On Fri, May 30, 2014 at 9:15 AM, Tim Bray wrote: > This doesn=E2=80=99t sound insane. I=E2=80=99ll try, over the next few da= ys, to draft such a > section. If nothing good emerges, I think staying with the current langu= age > is still a good outcome. > > > > On Fri, May 30, 2014 at 9:13 AM, Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr) > wrote: >> >> One way we could go on the topic of what goes in the root that would wor= k >> for me would be for us to add a non-normative section to I-JSON giving >> protocol design advice, and move the issue of potential incompatibility = of >> non-[object,array] roots to that section. >> >> Into that section, we can also put some suggestions about how to encode >> integers, floats, and dates in strings, how to do forward-compatibility >> with objects (MUST ignore what you don't understand), and whatever other >> pearls of wisdom we come up with. >> >> Yes, I know that will make the document take longer, and open up other >> areas for us to argue about. >> >> -- >> Joe Hildebrand >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> json mailing list >> json@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json > > > > > -- > - Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a private message, see > https://keybase.io/timbray) > > _______________________________________________ > json mailing list > json@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json > From nobody Fri May 30 12:49:31 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09F4A1A0A80 for ; Fri, 30 May 2014 12:49:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YRHgTwB6Q9Mk for ; Fri, 30 May 2014 12:49:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 78BB91A0A2C for ; Fri, 30 May 2014 12:49:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s4UJnDW3008112; Fri, 30 May 2014 21:49:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.240.32.70] (unknown [213.179.18.114]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9591F1A0B; Fri, 30 May 2014 21:49:12 +0200 (CEST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.2\)) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 30 May 2014 21:49:11 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: To: Jacob Davies X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.2) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/jLwmkTw3DTBg4PAvto4gEWHI0x8 Cc: Tim Bray , "Joe Hildebrand \(jhildebr\)" , "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] Proposal to move forward on acceptable roots X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 May 2014 19:49:30 -0000 On 30 May 2014, at 19:25, Jacob Davies wrote: > presumably base-64 (Make that base64url. Old base64 for legacy only.) Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten From nobody Fri May 30 13:30:06 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 566411A874A for ; Fri, 30 May 2014 13:30:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.043 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.043 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cqDmWFGRIQ15 for ; Fri, 30 May 2014 13:30:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a84.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9F701A06D8 for ; Fri, 30 May 2014 13:30:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a84.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a84.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9973A1DE05D for ; Fri, 30 May 2014 13:30:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:cc:content-type; s=cryptonector.com; bh=K2VC2KuKlI5ymK8LdcNJ cKYZkj0=; b=fBLGv2N8Cg9M4pgRXtyhVAWd7YGH6oY0r2pN9NjrZxoqK4NNIHEF 5JC8rIumBVdZ5+bzEtjRSrx53C3CBPByD6n01xNhm8rGJoTal3Z9bn1ibTVBrVB2 jVDi0iIyKOD29I55jegb3PHZQX05V28AuLM0CMv+F6RmEwXfqV4oMyw= Received: from mail-wg0-f41.google.com (mail-wg0-f41.google.com [74.125.82.41]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a84.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4A93E1DE058 for ; Fri, 30 May 2014 13:30:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wg0-f41.google.com with SMTP id z12so2484790wgg.0 for ; Fri, 30 May 2014 13:29:59 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.142.205 with SMTP id ry13mr24999578wjb.69.1401481798911; Fri, 30 May 2014 13:29:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.29.200 with HTTP; Fri, 30 May 2014 13:29:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.29.200 with HTTP; Fri, 30 May 2014 13:29:58 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 30 May 2014 15:29:58 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: "Joe Hildebrand, (jhildebr)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e0122f1b6c9ce5204faa3e8a0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/tb9l7XThj4_0t-oz3xC0dr9P_4s Cc: json@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Json] Proposal to move forward on acceptable roots X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 May 2014 20:30:05 -0000 --089e0122f1b6c9ce5204faa3e8a0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 +1 --089e0122f1b6c9ce5204faa3e8a0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8

+1

--089e0122f1b6c9ce5204faa3e8a0-- From nobody Fri May 30 14:18:47 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABF831A883C for ; Fri, 30 May 2014 14:18:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.277 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.277 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3MhSLPucJgez for ; Fri, 30 May 2014 14:18:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qg0-f51.google.com (mail-qg0-f51.google.com [209.85.192.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7A1AF1A067B for ; Fri, 30 May 2014 14:18:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qg0-f51.google.com with SMTP id q107so6945350qgd.38 for ; Fri, 30 May 2014 14:18:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=1lq7z0k0yZWh9grpBwNob6z0C2d+uYgXiBNL+XHpjH0=; b=Py503Nr4ix6W9elOqj1n1JgZ4ONJqb5YvTKxmDisDAoz9T32EwcFDMATW+lrteqKrO jH+Fx3obi9mDynzcox5BWrh5al75EItlHfZNrGwZnvaQfArUx3y4BYyz6XcyJf/QTH2u 9gi46VbW6FsTOAL1guieLC8XurLHYIGm39NLGr3sxjqagjFrIVwyQvqgpISsOEmdSzZm ZjDLgJaCy5heB4lnoAbWnOjv7hGiL6qPJqhfKk1ZrL7aHb+OdSXA80I4UjlExA17uHBp c0hTIDPL4qjmrrf5m0aBSNffSv7gaEPtXC2TqhFYsJA7MAeR+5uXG6Wr3dHH0vzHCRkg GoSQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnqI0tu9D8YBnIDQR0Z3DzBUzxnmtWM3WOWA3VklCSI9L2McKicPcNMlChDhfgwhncut52c MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.229.106.7 with SMTP id v7mr25249847qco.21.1401484717532; Fri, 30 May 2014 14:18:37 -0700 (PDT) Sender: mmorley@mpcm.com Received: by 10.140.89.180 with HTTP; Fri, 30 May 2014 14:18:37 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 30 May 2014 17:18:37 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: o6-ovbk7MbAu0WhgwiRyNINI5JA Message-ID: From: Matthew Morley To: "Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1133533ebf5aa904faa49611 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/4PzQOpGxBLFMgBCBAWvPYJWFXvk Cc: "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] Proposal to move forward on acceptable roots X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 May 2014 21:18:43 -0000 --001a1133533ebf5aa904faa49611 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 +1 On Fri, May 30, 2014 at 12:13 PM, Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr) < jhildebr@cisco.com> wrote: > One way we could go on the topic of what goes in the root that would work > for me would be for us to add a non-normative section to I-JSON giving > protocol design advice, and move the issue of potential incompatibility of > non-[object,array] roots to that section. > > Into that section, we can also put some suggestions about how to encode > integers, floats, and dates in strings, how to do forward-compatibility > with objects (MUST ignore what you don't understand), and whatever other > pearls of wisdom we come up with. > > Yes, I know that will make the document take longer, and open up other > areas for us to argue about. > > -- > Joe Hildebrand > > > > _______________________________________________ > json mailing list > json@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json > -- Matthew P. C. Morley --001a1133533ebf5aa904faa49611 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
+1


On Fri, May 30, 2014 at 12:13 PM, Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr) <= jhildebr@cisco.com> wrote:
One way we could go on the topic of what goe= s in the root that would work
for me would be for us to add a non-normative section to I-JSON giving
protocol design advice, and move the issue of potential incompatibility of<= br> non-[object,array] roots to that section.

Into that section, we can also put some suggestions about how to encode
integers, floats, and dates in strings, how to do forward-compatibility
with objects (MUST ignore what you don't understand), and whatever othe= r
pearls of wisdom we come up with.

Yes, I know that will make the document take longer, and open up other
areas for us to argue about.

--
Joe Hildebrand



_______________________________________________
json mailing list
json@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json



-- Matthew P. C. Morley
--001a1133533ebf5aa904faa49611-- From nobody Fri May 30 14:39:09 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 400F51A0699 for ; Fri, 30 May 2014 14:39:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ySNJqXAOl2ef for ; Fri, 30 May 2014 14:39:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vc0-f171.google.com (mail-vc0-f171.google.com [209.85.220.171]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4E3671A046D for ; Fri, 30 May 2014 14:39:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vc0-f171.google.com with SMTP id lc6so2768336vcb.16 for ; Fri, 30 May 2014 14:39:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=lxLUWg7MHhZv6foy+RncYPuZm8BsfgUD0VBdr91ChR0=; b=P3IqwkZXqGSWHS3AiGEhyOTbscGXpQLY3LhgRld88YbiImxEGdHD3ZG/vqjph6i5XM Lr+z4GpkA8dHDSDobhc1u1bl49H4RCvzGL/D8VBA2WH+EhIg6b38hw9+t0AMJloP7kxu kyTqhppEIDkJz3oYfM/vyc+0ToPMqm4QGr9rEjfziUFO+VdBMqYtPAGNBgXx1UyA+oiz zSf2X4JYcQIMICGCuTydDUH+7xGU94E0bj1leQb3Cuf1uu8AQZgfv5cDMIw4n1sO4cEl UhCAd3HjlxzMxMPX02O7kSR7t4XktMLnmB+pTJs9o8qC0xQ2/DN4TjoOUQk7C1N97VFC zSpA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkozgufBeMpFUXAqTQfm4bIGNf6h/JQRGJvo27tQXkaDe9mnWYoWOzYfWTj6K1WBPW9KId+ X-Received: by 10.220.205.3 with SMTP id fo3mr3903522vcb.57.1401485941382; Fri, 30 May 2014 14:39:01 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.98.73 with HTTP; Fri, 30 May 2014 14:38:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [24.85.103.37] In-Reply-To: <62E6DC51-2D3D-4C55-89D8-19810347A9FB@tzi.org> References: <535EB3BF.8080606@cisco.com> <537A5BE0.3020406@cisco.com> <488AE66E-725D-40B3-9FDA-ADA1018BCF65@tzi.org> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E115461FFE59@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> <20140521020731.GG9283@mercury.ccil.org> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E1154629E87D@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> <5384C118.4060402@cisco.com> <14DB352D-3D0C-458A-90BE-38BCA8CC98DD@tzi.org> <5384D0C2.7030407@cisco.com> <62E6DC51-2D3D-4C55-89D8-19810347A9FB@tzi.org> From: Tim Bray Date: Fri, 30 May 2014 14:38:40 -0700 Message-ID: To: Carsten Bormann Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c3c8c4b1b94804faa4df14 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/xfBh6kYu2l_lD06V4xz-1-i6UVs Cc: Nico Williams , IETF JSON WG , Matt Miller Subject: Re: [Json] I-JSON Topic #5: Numbers X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 May 2014 21:39:08 -0000 --001a11c3c8c4b1b94804faa4df14 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, May 27, 2014 at 12:17 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote: > =E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B > =E2=9E=A7 In particular, an I-JSON sender MUST NOT expect a receiver t= o treat > =E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B > an integer whose absolute value is greater than 9007199254740992 (i.e.= , > =E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B > that is outside the range [-2**53, 2**53], where ** stands for > exponentiation) > =E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B > as an exact value. > =E2=80=8BBTW, RFC7159 says: Note that when such software is used, numbers w= hich are integers and are in the range [-(2**53)+1, (2**53)-1] are interoperable in the sense that implementations will agree exactly on their numeric values.= =E2=80=8B So for consistency we should adjust this language to use this range and the absolute value of 9007199254740991 - right? =E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B =E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B =E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B > > This then leads well into the next paragraph: > > For applications such as cryptography, where much larger numbers are > reasonably required, it is RECOMMENDED to encode them in JSON string > values. This requires that the receiving program understand the > intended semantic of the value. > > Maybe s/where=E2=80=A6are/where exact interchange of=E2=80=A6is/ in there= for even more > clarity. > > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > > --=20 - Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a private message, see https://keybase.io/timbray) --001a11c3c8c4b1b94804faa4df14 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On = Tue, May 27, 2014 at 12:17 PM, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> wro= te:
=E2= =80=8B=E2=80=8B
=C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=9E=A7 In particular, an I-JSON sender= MUST NOT expect a receiver to treat
=E2= =80=8B=E2=80=8B
=C2=A0 =C2=A0an integer whose absolute value is greate= r than 9007199254740992 (i.e.,
=E2= =80=8B=E2=80=8B
=C2=A0 =C2=A0that is outside the range [-2**53, 2**53]= , where ** stands for exponentiation)
=E2= =80=8B=E2=80=8B
=C2=A0 =C2=A0as an exact value.
<= br>
=E2=80= =8BBTW, RFC7159 says: Note that when such software is used, numbers which a= re integers and are in the range [-(2**53)+1, (2**53)-1] are interoperable = in the sense that implementations will agree exactly on their numeric value= s.=E2=80=8B =C2=A0So for consistency we should adjust this language to use = this range and the absolute value of 9007199254740991 - right?
=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B
= =E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B

=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B

This then leads well into the next paragraph:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0For applications such as cryptography, where much larger numbe= rs are
=C2=A0 =C2=A0reasonably required, it is RECOMMENDED to encode them in JSON = string
=C2=A0 =C2=A0values. =C2=A0This requires that the receiving program underst= and the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0intended semantic of the value.

Maybe s/where=E2=80=A6are/where exact interchange of=E2=80=A6is/ in there f= or even more clarity.

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten




--
- Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a private message, s= ee https://keybase= .io/timbray)
--001a11c3c8c4b1b94804faa4df14-- From nobody Fri May 30 15:04:27 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C7241A08C0 for ; Fri, 30 May 2014 15:04:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.251 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.251 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.651] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wNKXpb6_n63t for ; Fri, 30 May 2014 15:04:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 845E81A0641 for ; Fri, 30 May 2014 15:04:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1WqUuO-0003yr-JQ; Fri, 30 May 2014 18:04:16 -0400 Date: Fri, 30 May 2014 18:04:16 -0400 From: John Cowan To: Tim Bray Message-ID: <20140530220416.GA26443@mercury.ccil.org> References: <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E1154629E87D@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> <5384C118.4060402@cisco.com> <14DB352D-3D0C-458A-90BE-38BCA8CC98DD@tzi.org> <5384D0C2.7030407@cisco.com> <62E6DC51-2D3D-4C55-89D8-19810347A9FB@tzi.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Sender: John Cowan Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/ynngZcaZ-ib0CG3CJjJUZmuFUvY Cc: Nico Williams , Carsten Bormann , Matt Miller , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] I-JSON Topic #5: Numbers X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 May 2014 22:04:26 -0000 Tim Bray scripsit: > ​BTW, RFC7159 says: Note that when such software is used, numbers which are > integers and are in the range [-(2**53)+1, (2**53)-1] are interoperable in > the sense that implementations will agree exactly on their numeric values.​ > So for consistency we should adjust this language to use this range and > the absolute value of 9007199254740991 - right? Yes. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org But the next day there came no dawn, and the Grey Company passed on into the darkness of the Storm of Mordor and were lost to mortal sight; but the Dead followed them. --"The Passing of the Grey Company" From nobody Fri May 30 15:58:15 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB5801A0981 for ; Fri, 30 May 2014 15:58:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hKjCbG0Jevq2 for ; Fri, 30 May 2014 15:58:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ve0-f175.google.com (mail-ve0-f175.google.com [209.85.128.175]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 12D551A094F for ; Fri, 30 May 2014 15:58:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ve0-f175.google.com with SMTP id jw12so2868730veb.6 for ; Fri, 30 May 2014 15:58:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=hNUuwACw25bqfvjb0Wd/ZAVVR1kYL1auiN9H7WfMZ30=; b=jgcRLq5vCuhY1SF4cacg6LA5UunnUDgn63a6bZT4FQTXBFZ0/bsJNGbgrNdwtfppul hjAc9W0WuqyyMweyo9SNhq2EABDRAZioZdyXNya+4ycR5W+/HmiCJsSy7M/dN4wBafvb ecKQpIVuc9f+or0A2TpAelzhYjsMwcC+m6ze1UtmYcJAx/jzm4gOjBNRuj0HKVkvfyiN UC3jeLAWcRRwXBxICWbm0YpNDxiaVAgmZcaN7EqaUOiQFnDsfP2XjnTb+1wG2CkmQDEo xXla3EXXvMmjy662jVF9QUk9bPoQ7/XSrWdDXcIWj92MmKSJHEnH08+sPT6GJqFLiNnM k6gA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQl27U2z2p5FL04FiUz3acGm0ea3KIpyjG2atuwSG75owbzw7rfZ1ZvwN7bIFWi1mezH7niQ X-Received: by 10.52.154.241 with SMTP id vr17mr14143067vdb.40.1401490685035; Fri, 30 May 2014 15:58:05 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.98.73 with HTTP; Fri, 30 May 2014 15:57:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [24.85.103.37] In-Reply-To: References: From: Tim Bray Date: Fri, 30 May 2014 15:57:44 -0700 Message-ID: To: Matthew Morley Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec51a8e2a7014b404faa5fa70 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/7IzZjECAE2o-3OG0C4YuqN-GP8A Cc: "Joe Hildebrand \(jhildebr\)" , "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] Proposal to move forward on acceptable roots X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 30 May 2014 22:58:13 -0000 --bcaec51a8e2a7014b404faa5fa70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable OK, I=E2=80=99ve got a i-json-01 in progress at http://www.tbray.org/tmp/draft-ietf-json-i-json-01.html which I think captures all the consensus calls and also includes a =E2=80=9CProtocol-desi= gn Recommendations=E2=80=9D section and drops the array-or-object top-level co= nstraint. Diffs at http://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3Dhttp://www.tbray.org/tmp/draft-ietf-js= on-i-json-00.txt&url2=3Dhttp://www.tbray.org/tmp/draft-ietf-json-i-json-01.= txt On Fri, May 30, 2014 at 2:18 PM, Matthew Morley wrote: > +1 > > > On Fri, May 30, 2014 at 12:13 PM, Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr) < > jhildebr@cisco.com> wrote: > >> One way we could go on the topic of what goes in the root that would wor= k >> for me would be for us to add a non-normative section to I-JSON giving >> protocol design advice, and move the issue of potential incompatibility = of >> non-[object,array] roots to that section. >> >> Into that section, we can also put some suggestions about how to encode >> integers, floats, and dates in strings, how to do forward-compatibility >> with objects (MUST ignore what you don't understand), and whatever other >> pearls of wisdom we come up with. >> >> Yes, I know that will make the document take longer, and open up other >> areas for us to argue about. >> >> -- >> Joe Hildebrand >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> json mailing list >> json@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json >> > > > > -- > Matthew P. C. Morley > > _______________________________________________ > json mailing list > json@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json > > --=20 - Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a private message, see https://keybase.io/timbray) --bcaec51a8e2a7014b404faa5fa70 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
OK,= I=E2=80=99ve got a i-json-01 in progress at=C2=A0http://www.tbray.org/tmp/draft-i= etf-json-i-json-01.html which I think captures all the consensus calls = and also includes a =E2=80=9CProtocol-design Recommendations=E2=80=9D secti= on and drops the array-or-object top-level constraint.

Diffs at=C2=A0http://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3Dhttp://www.tbray.org/tmp/draft-iet= f-json-i-json-00.txt&url2=3Dhttp://www.tbray.org/tmp/draft-ietf-json-i-= json-01.txt


On Fri,= May 30, 2014 at 2:18 PM, Matthew Morley <matt@mpcm.com> wrote:<= br>
+1
=

On Fri, May 30, 2014 at 12:13 PM, Joe Hi= ldebrand (jhildebr) <jhildebr@cisco.com> wrote:
One way we could go on the topic of what goe= s in the root that would work
for me would be for us to add a non-normative section to I-JSON giving
protocol design advice, and move the issue of potential incompatibility of<= br> non-[object,array] roots to that section.

Into that section, we can also put some suggestions about how to encode
integers, floats, and dates in strings, how to do forward-compatibility
with objects (MUST ignore what you don't understand), and whatever othe= r
pearls of wisdom we come up with.

Yes, I know that will make the document take longer, and open up other
areas for us to argue about.

--
Joe Hildebrand



_______________________________________________
json mailing list
json@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json



--
Matthew P. C. = Morley

_______________________________________________
json mailing list
json@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json




--
- Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a private messag= e, see https://key= base.io/timbray)
--bcaec51a8e2a7014b404faa5fa70-- From nobody Fri May 30 22:23:05 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 668AF1A0741 for ; Fri, 30 May 2014 22:23:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7SWgLG9G7uO3 for ; Fri, 30 May 2014 22:22:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 492AB1A073C for ; Fri, 30 May 2014 22:22:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s4V5Mlv2022556; Sat, 31 May 2014 07:22:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.240.32.70] (unknown [213.179.18.114]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 34A2A1A4F; Sat, 31 May 2014 07:22:47 +0200 (CEST) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.2\)) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 31 May 2014 07:22:45 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <7A96EC11-7B64-4981-AB50-39F3742BB7C7@tzi.org> References: <535EB3BF.8080606@cisco.com> <537A5BE0.3020406@cisco.com> <488AE66E-725D-40B3-9FDA-ADA1018BCF65@tzi.org> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E115461FFE59@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> <20140521020731.GG9283@mercury.ccil.org> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E1154629E87D@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> <5384C118.4060402@cisco.com> <14DB352D-3D0C-458A-90BE-38BCA8CC98DD@tzi.org> <5384D0C2.7030407@cisco.com> <62 E6DC51-2D3D-4C55-89D8-19810347A9FB@tzi.org> To: Tim Bray X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.2) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/yMbC3n_Urm0piWDwJQDjZP-7Ex4 Cc: IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] I-JSON Topic #5: Numbers X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 31 May 2014 05:23:03 -0000 On 30 May 2014, at 23:38, Tim Bray wrote: > On Tue, May 27, 2014 at 12:17 PM, Carsten Bormann = wrote: > =E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B =E2=9E=A7 In particular, an I-JSON sender MUST = NOT expect a receiver to treat > =E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B an integer whose absolute value is greater than = 9007199254740992 (i.e., > =E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B that is outside the range [-2**53, 2**53], where = ** stands for exponentiation) > =E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B as an exact value. >=20 > =E2=80=8BBTW, RFC7159 says: Note that when such software is used, = numbers which are integers and are in the range [-(2**53)+1, (2**53)-1] = are interoperable in the sense that implementations will agree exactly = on their numeric values.=E2=80=8B So for consistency we should adjust = this language to use this range and the absolute value of = 9007199254740991 - right? Consistency is good. The new text makes use of the fact that 2**53+1 is the first integer = that cannot be represented in binary64. 2**53 itself is a bit of an edge case because it can be represented = exactly, but carries the uncertainty whether 2*53+1 was meant instead. So if an implementation checks exactness only after conversion, it can = only accept [-(2**53)+1, (2**53)-1]. Indeed, let=E2=80=99s stick with the narrower range [-(2**53)+1, = (2**53)-1]. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten From nobody Sat May 31 22:09:18 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 894EC1A0177 for ; Sat, 31 May 2014 22:09:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.778 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.778 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, J_CHICKENPOX_14=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_41=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id M6fggUmT8FpU for ; Sat, 31 May 2014 22:09:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vc0-f181.google.com (mail-vc0-f181.google.com [209.85.220.181]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 260D81A0176 for ; Sat, 31 May 2014 22:09:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vc0-f181.google.com with SMTP id hq11so1815945vcb.12 for ; Sat, 31 May 2014 22:09:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=U9zX4y8hRmw1EepmjDDQKz6gebwG3zcKIfPTcTzvmkk=; b=HhJnSzNdbI6paSY50hINT1GFvIc4MBiTvX9131kzBqBDQuA3R0FT8IVax8rdqhoQlb Se4hTZWs9q0DWP8aAQKyEeBe7GJGgWBJL/F4twTlDeJ8AN703o767lp+K4PvFLNWul+s FK3fJOyeMIkM5KZvyz91qMvPVHRrEHU2HsyOYfdNFTsDJt4NP4VFTUt/wDwhIo8nWKl7 olQ/Ol1XRaCNEE0bLpSzxZNqkCrltJaSpsRKCrxG7RR5AuayHWwsUa1yrbX4MyVJ2Y7g 4QNRbLjBJ7aWeEXV++fdOOKhSEXNNPZcs5CcWf79///YCqm2ASwupR7tQs4LP8mbQUyd aS6g== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQntmrl01sZ7B7HppZJSp2gXxQ//GstMHUSyRXh0SVwCVAwSStwWdHWv+1vZEAQRil0HDO4j X-Received: by 10.221.44.73 with SMTP id uf9mr23349374vcb.9.1401599349437; Sat, 31 May 2014 22:09:09 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.98.73 with HTTP; Sat, 31 May 2014 22:08:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [24.84.235.32] In-Reply-To: References: From: Tim Bray Date: Sat, 31 May 2014 22:08:49 -0700 Message-ID: To: Nico Williams Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/xVdQtDQ1KqC6NcbiQ4qHV-jQavw Cc: Carsten Bormann , IETF JSON WG , =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2E_D=C3=BCrst?= , Paul Hoffman Subject: Re: [Json] Using a non-whitespace separator (Re: Working Group Last Call on draft-ietf-json-text-sequence) X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2014 05:09:16 -0000 On Sun, May 25, 2014 at 4:05 PM, Nico Williams wrot= e: > Currently my thinking is that for backwards compatibility reasons I'd > want to to make this RECOMMENDED though, not REQUIRED, except for > cases where incomplete writes are a potential problem. No. There should be only one way to do things. OK, I propose that the code point U+FFFE be used be used as the separator in JSON sequences. (This is the reversed form of the ZERO WIDTH NO BREAK SPACE a.k.a. Byte Order Mark character; it means that if you=E2=80=99re reading UTF-16 you have the endian-ness wrong). Since presumably by the time you see a separator you=E2=80=99ve figured out your byte order, and especially since de facto everything is UTF-8, U+FFFE just can=E2=80=99t occur. Also the Unicode spec is clear that it must never= be interpreted as an abstract character nor interchanged; and is thus suitable for use as a separator. This makes the resync problem trivial: If you hit a busted JSON text, you drop into a loop like while ((nextCodepoint() !=3D 0xFFFE) && !eof()) { // do nothing } So the top-level production is along the lines of JSON-sequence =3D JSON-text *( %xfffe JSON-text ) In jq this > would be an option to either use or maybe not use this new separator. > > Another option is to say that encoders MUST use the new separator, but > parsers MAY/SHOULD/MUST handle sequences with a missing separator (as > jq does; see below). jq would still have an encoding option, but when > not emitting the new separator the result just wouldn't be a JSON text > sequence. > > FWIW, this is what the jq processor does to handle sequences: it reads > input bytes, feeds them to its parser (which works incrementally, but > isn't streaming), and passes each parsed output to the jq VM to use as > an input to the jq program. Output values of the jq program are > encoded as JSON texts, printed, and then a newline is printed. > > The jq processor has no special handling of newlines on input. If > there's any bytes left over from parsing a previous text, they are > used in the next parse. Whitespace is just whitespace. > > The only special thing that the jq processor does is to print a > newline after each text on output. > > This means that jq can handle JSON text sequences with any whitespace > separator, and even no separator when there would be no ambiguity: > > % /jq -c .< 1 2 true false null"a string""another"[0,1,2 > ]{"foo":"bar"} > EOF > 1 > 2 > true > false > null > "a string" > "another" > [0,1,2] > {"foo":"bar"} > % > > I could teach jq how to parse a non-whitespace control character > separator; that's easy enough. The question is: how to handle > backwards compatibility? The obvious answer is: add an option. But > which way should it default? > > Nico > -- > > _______________________________________________ > json mailing list > json@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json --=20 - Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a private message, see https://keybase.io/timbray)