From nobody Fri Aug 1 04:35:31 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D8691A0AA0 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2014 04:35:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FgCQTfTSNhdk for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2014 04:35:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 02C5D1A0A99 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2014 04:35:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s71BZKLq003798 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2014 13:35:20 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.217.106] (p5489377C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.137.55.124]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E502BF43; Fri, 1 Aug 2014 13:35:19 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) From: Carsten Bormann Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2014 13:35:18 +0200 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 428585718.019876-0bbaaf721d30de7b756e38ef3c354576 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <39ADA8F1-D204-4B2C-A1AC-0CA1F3B238D1@tzi.org> References: <53DB7757.8000600@cisco.com> To: JSON WG X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/BJximpA6ht5UfAw4ihEtmRYPwtk Subject: [Json] Fwd: Blog: YANG Takes Off in the Industry X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2014 11:35:29 -0000 For large parts of the IETF, the JSON schema discussion we are not = having is already settled. (Or is it? Should it be? Scary.) Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten Begin forwarded message: > From: Benoit Claise > Subject: Blog: YANG Takes Off in the Industry > Date: 1 Aug 2014 13:17:43 +0200 > To: IETF-Discussion list >=20 > Dear all, >=20 > [netmod WG list is bcc'ed] >=20 > Enjoy http://www.ietf.org/blog/2014/07/yang-takes-off-in-the-industry/ >=20 > Regards, Benoit >=20 >=20 From nobody Fri Aug 1 04:54:13 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BA0F1ABB2B for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2014 04:54:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.602 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.602 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BmchON2UhZUB for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2014 04:54:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2A4E91A0ADC for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2014 04:54:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1XDBPU-0005jW-Kg; Fri, 01 Aug 2014 07:54:08 -0400 Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2014 07:54:08 -0400 From: John Cowan To: Carsten Bormann Message-ID: <20140801115408.GC23649@mercury.ccil.org> References: <53DB7757.8000600@cisco.com> <39ADA8F1-D204-4B2C-A1AC-0CA1F3B238D1@tzi.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <39ADA8F1-D204-4B2C-A1AC-0CA1F3B238D1@tzi.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Sender: John Cowan Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/7knSDUji6A4VFUWAvIriWimtjqI Cc: JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] Fwd: Blog: YANG Takes Off in the Industry X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2014 11:54:12 -0000 Carsten Bormann scripsit: > For large parts of the IETF, the JSON schema discussion we are not > having is already settled. Say what? YANG is a data modeling language for network configuration expressed in XML and defined in RFC 6020 -- which does not contain the word JSON once. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org Possession is said to be nine points of the law, but that's not saying how many points the law might have. --Thomas A. Cowan (law professor and my father) From nobody Fri Aug 1 05:01:27 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F4E61A0A8A for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2014 05:01:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bo2WDdCrO-du for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2014 05:01:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9473B1A0A8B for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2014 05:01:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s71C1EDo027127; Fri, 1 Aug 2014 14:01:14 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.217.106] (p5489377C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.137.55.124]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2AC7CF89; Fri, 1 Aug 2014 14:01:13 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <20140801115408.GC23649@mercury.ccil.org> Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2014 14:01:12 +0200 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 428587272.233375-658de5b3e0128aabe108e2f2a33ae46e Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <8369416F-0CDB-4BAA-81A6-157A51229103@tzi.org> References: <53DB7757.8000600@cisco.com> <39ADA8F1-D204-4B2C-A1AC-0CA1F3B238D1@tzi.org> <20140801115408.GC23649@mercury.ccil.org> To: John Cowan X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/YmOb4XaQ4_VmTuKAJew6KKDmZ3Y Cc: JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] Fwd: Blog: YANG Takes Off in the Industry X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2014 12:01:23 -0000 On 01 Aug 2014, at 13:54, John Cowan wrote: > which does not contain the > word JSON once. That vacuum is filled by draft-ietf-netmod-yang-json-00. (Nature abhors vacuum.) Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten From nobody Fri Aug 1 05:11:33 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A15E51A0659 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2014 05:11:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.278 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.278 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qhB9OZ1wdoB7 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2014 05:11:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lb0-x22b.google.com (mail-lb0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c04::22b]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D16B91ABB1D for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2014 05:11:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lb0-f171.google.com with SMTP id l4so3106886lbv.16 for ; Fri, 01 Aug 2014 05:11:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=Qkyb8YqVuN0P9Q3ffsAoZ9dpMA4aSK5NkuO+r19NK/w=; b=j3mF8XFzF6F0oMmVHmNAklGdoYRbs4YREITIJeiNR382U8wMf3wy10TOvbTPv1SaYF lUNoNDdygoOahQp4n9S0a7WmZ8PU+1MJqYX4dx97D6A1cuY6T66LoNcFgOujq+T2VWKR k1Ptqx5hnW7x8zYtybU01AgrCeRwiWwf1xpAOMOnm6lVNBah7UTmH9IZNYOzambCRXXz oiW1oEz9EwrRq2ZJP+ddf3kKKtx2ZI6Xg/5Y/2ef5gZSNRERsKrqtZUgN/AEBVWWimmh tAuO1DDEMAtOUppDM8YmSsf1BL0J3p17cbtssHxAkm68U0rPaYmm3La8BXR4E2P0uh4y +gMA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.152.29.202 with SMTP id m10mr5394756lah.4.1406895079605; Fri, 01 Aug 2014 05:11:19 -0700 (PDT) Sender: hallam@gmail.com Received: by 10.112.122.50 with HTTP; Fri, 1 Aug 2014 05:11:19 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20140801115408.GC23649@mercury.ccil.org> References: <53DB7757.8000600@cisco.com> <39ADA8F1-D204-4B2C-A1AC-0CA1F3B238D1@tzi.org> <20140801115408.GC23649@mercury.ccil.org> Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2014 08:11:19 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: vHulX2a4_XU2Yc9HQ41g9NSqt8w Message-ID: From: Phillip Hallam-Baker To: John Cowan Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/6BiMnt2BbJtNfnVbZgvLIHlIbeM Cc: Carsten Bormann , JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] Fwd: Blog: YANG Takes Off in the Industry X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2014 12:11:29 -0000 On Fri, Aug 1, 2014 at 7:54 AM, John Cowan wrote: > Carsten Bormann scripsit: > >> For large parts of the IETF, the JSON schema discussion we are not >> having is already settled. > > Say what? YANG is a data modeling language for network configuration > expressed in XML and defined in RFC 6020 -- which does not contain the > word JSON once. But you could use it to create a data model that was represented in JSON. At this point it is rather clear that JSON has won the Web Services data encoding battle. And it is perhaps not surprising. 80% of the functionality of XML is there for the people using it to model documents. And that community refuses to make any changes to XML or XML schema to support protocol work. So XML is a bad choice for protocol design. So I think his point is that if you aren't doing JSON its not relevant anyway. Using a schema to design a protocol is still a good idea. But only if you have the right tools. My tools generate the Internet Draft reference materials and the code that is run to produce the examples from the same schema. So they are both always in sync. It now generates C code as well so you can use it in production. Whether the schema helps of gets in the way depends on what sort of programmer you are and what your security concerns are. For my code I want to map the input stream to an in-language data representation and validate the syntax and type of all the sub-nodes before I pass the data on to my dispatch routine. From nobody Fri Aug 1 05:35:53 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B33751A03AE for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2014 05:35:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.602 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.602 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wP_wlAz-wuP7 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2014 05:35:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4309C1A0324 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2014 05:35:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1XDC3m-0001e7-G5; Fri, 01 Aug 2014 08:35:46 -0400 Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2014 08:35:46 -0400 From: John Cowan To: Phillip Hallam-Baker Message-ID: <20140801123546.GD23649@mercury.ccil.org> References: <53DB7757.8000600@cisco.com> <39ADA8F1-D204-4B2C-A1AC-0CA1F3B238D1@tzi.org> <20140801115408.GC23649@mercury.ccil.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Sender: John Cowan Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/xS9mapzJ8VGyALMJvvATjIfNi4U Cc: Carsten Bormann , JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] Fwd: Blog: YANG Takes Off in the Industry X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2014 12:35:51 -0000 Carsten Bormann scripsit: > That vacuum is filled by draft-ietf-netmod-yang-json-00. (Nature > abhors vacuum.) Neither here nor there: that is merely a JSON expression of the XML. It has nothing to do with modeling JSON. Phillip Hallam-Baker scripsit: > But you could use it to create a data model that was represented in > JSON. I haven't read the RFC in any detail, but the model given in 4.2.2 does not seem to be a JSON model: it is far more complicated. > And that community refuses to make any changes to XML or XML schema to > support protocol work. Or for any other purpose. Ghu knows I tried. > So XML is a bad choice for protocol design. That conclusion I believe to be unwarranted. The problems with XML are mostly the hard-to-use APIs, of which one of the worst is that embedded in all browsers. If anything is carved in stone these days, it is the DOM. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org Yakka foob mog. Grug pubbawup zink wattoom gazork. Chumble spuzz. --Calvin, giving Newton's First Law "in his own words" From nobody Fri Aug 1 06:10:52 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 406EA1A0383 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2014 06:10:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.278 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.278 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ILPNknHfBnOr for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2014 06:10:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lb0-x236.google.com (mail-lb0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c04::236]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B975F1A0B06 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2014 06:10:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lb0-f182.google.com with SMTP id z11so3076541lbi.41 for ; Fri, 01 Aug 2014 06:10:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=LVK4gwOswaAUR0Y7fCk1SAWtZ2atNTzelGSLZEhxeqo=; b=jQY/hIZ88WCnBkh3xjosN4g5FCob0835bOMr7R4cqQZJXFC0uFuQNmSMayO1J+Q5Gj cLmNHT1iocMvVcDAozD9NxBB9826rCug8jHDwSyLCmsb7IuFRAKWhQG4rMRoZsj8h0/o 4kcpK4QU5Gpuvg7sccp+5tyGyJ5yoeqkSu3vwdf34siEtb9utfxWsZjoKi3wN2wl2fjw M3o0guID8GXE7cZMm4YSRGeUM9IGreOjHK0kv570Q3Rl5Bwk6xeaCES+7RG3M3xk5Q0Q GbxrlKI+uNuoB8hGXer0DdacxRGlm4zgTxcfSa9v16BXz7VV7i8RhTkzmaZPKrj/KRRN AkdA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.152.179.229 with SMTP id dj5mr5677772lac.97.1406898645577; Fri, 01 Aug 2014 06:10:45 -0700 (PDT) Sender: hallam@gmail.com Received: by 10.112.122.50 with HTTP; Fri, 1 Aug 2014 06:10:45 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20140801123546.GD23649@mercury.ccil.org> References: <53DB7757.8000600@cisco.com> <39ADA8F1-D204-4B2C-A1AC-0CA1F3B238D1@tzi.org> <20140801115408.GC23649@mercury.ccil.org> <20140801123546.GD23649@mercury.ccil.org> Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2014 09:10:45 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: Ay1cXo8_qIttV05PiDvJ_7_n_hI Message-ID: From: Phillip Hallam-Baker To: John Cowan Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/p4BOYAzk4qIA7IN9ggnxKURc88U Cc: Carsten Bormann , JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] Fwd: Blog: YANG Takes Off in the Industry X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2014 13:10:50 -0000 On Fri, Aug 1, 2014 at 8:35 AM, John Cowan wrote: > Carsten Bormann scripsit: > >> That vacuum is filled by draft-ietf-netmod-yang-json-00. (Nature >> abhors vacuum.) > > Neither here nor there: that is merely a JSON expression of the XML. It > has nothing to do with modeling JSON. > > Phillip Hallam-Baker scripsit: > >> But you could use it to create a data model that was represented in >> JSON. > > I haven't read the RFC in any detail, but the model given in 4.2.2 does > not seem to be a JSON model: it is far more complicated. > >> And that community refuses to make any changes to XML or XML schema to >> support protocol work. > > Or for any other purpose. Ghu knows I tried. > >> So XML is a bad choice for protocol design. > > That conclusion I believe to be unwarranted. The problems with XML are > mostly the hard-to-use APIs, of which one of the worst is that embedded > in all browsers. If anything is carved in stone these days, it is the > DOM. True, but JSON is (or certainly should be) just a serialization format of the DOM. So it is actually a short distance between the two points than XML. Which is why a binary version of JSON should be a binary encoding of the DOM and not some different data model. From nobody Fri Aug 1 06:20:39 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE0AA1A0B17 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2014 06:20:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.202 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.202 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SC17lJEukxco for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2014 06:20:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E11F41A854D for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2014 06:20:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1XDCl2-0006MI-GM; Fri, 01 Aug 2014 09:20:28 -0400 Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2014 09:20:28 -0400 From: John Cowan To: Phillip Hallam-Baker Message-ID: <20140801132028.GF23649@mercury.ccil.org> References: <53DB7757.8000600@cisco.com> <39ADA8F1-D204-4B2C-A1AC-0CA1F3B238D1@tzi.org> <20140801115408.GC23649@mercury.ccil.org> <20140801123546.GD23649@mercury.ccil.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Sender: John Cowan Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/qdY_jR83AFGo-1YOvlH-kdVjCtc Cc: Carsten Bormann , JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] Fwd: Blog: YANG Takes Off in the Industry X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2014 13:20:37 -0000 Phillip Hallam-Baker scripsit: > True, but JSON is (or certainly should be) just a serialization format > of the DOM. So it is actually a short distance between the two points > than XML. I don't say that you can't construct a JSON serialization of the DOM, but the DOM's native model, with its mixed content, node-centric rather than path-centric naming, and other features, is far more like XML than it is like JSON. What JSON serializes is JavaScript values (or rather less, given that it excludes infinity and NaN). That makes it convenient to represent JSON texts as anonymous JavaScript values within a JavaScript program. In any case this is far off-topic. > Which is why a binary version of JSON should be a binary encoding of > the DOM and not some different data model. A binary version of JSON should surely encode what JSON encodes, neither more nor less. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. If a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friends or of thine own were: any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee. --John Donne From nobody Fri Aug 1 08:08:40 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BE4B1B27C9 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2014 08:08:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.652 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.652 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HELO_EQ_CZ=0.445, HOST_EQ_CZ=0.904, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jTluX_OcRtI6 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2014 08:08:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.nic.cz (mail.nic.cz [IPv6:2001:1488:800:400::400]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 935431B27B3 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2014 08:08:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.29.2.201] (nat-5.bravonet.cz [77.48.224.5]) by mail.nic.cz (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E1C6A13F890; Fri, 1 Aug 2014 17:08:34 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nic.cz; s=default; t=1406905715; bh=YSGEb7qjYqL4BzJno72/tyCt+mH8n7FO0WPaYO8H8Lo=; h=Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-Id:References:To; b=J/PFmz+Fthxzv5n77FTG8c+0GltmYvmAO0+lXQds0FU9I9NW4hLXeHNr0Ehb0UVqH xj/Rxr77Yiu04CX2jhwgAxi3sn9nEfumyRFb4iSQ4KwFC3WhAz3tMGwmsMG9xoUmFD tzGxtRQ4PMzHf3JQeHtUq0cS+KroSV4fyf5kzT9k= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) From: Ladislav Lhotka In-Reply-To: <8369416F-0CDB-4BAA-81A6-157A51229103@tzi.org> Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2014 17:08:34 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <53DB7757.8000600@cisco.com> <39ADA8F1-D204-4B2C-A1AC-0CA1F3B238D1@tzi.org> <20140801115408.GC23649@mercury.ccil.org> <8369416F-0CDB-4BAA-81A6-157A51229103@tzi.org> To: Carsten Bormann X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.98.1 at mail X-Virus-Status: Clean Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/dHEJ4TCdxhVB-rM1aaE8Ug7vaYY Cc: John Cowan , JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] Fwd: Blog: YANG Takes Off in the Industry X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2014 15:08:38 -0000 On 01 Aug 2014, at 14:01, Carsten Bormann wrote: > On 01 Aug 2014, at 13:54, John Cowan wrote: >=20 >> which does not contain the >> word JSON once. >=20 > That vacuum is filled by draft-ietf-netmod-yang-json-00. > (Nature abhors vacuum.) Right. In fact, JSON is a better fit than XML for data modelled with = YANG, because, for example, YANG doesn=92t allow for modelling XML = attributes and mixed content. Lada >=20 > Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten >=20 > _______________________________________________ > json mailing list > json@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json -- Ladislav Lhotka, CZ.NIC Labs PGP Key ID: E74E8C0C From nobody Fri Aug 1 08:33:55 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E3491B27DF for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2014 08:33:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.652 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.652 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HELO_EQ_CZ=0.445, HOST_EQ_CZ=0.904, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5n3bVoixX8em for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2014 08:33:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.nic.cz (mail.nic.cz [IPv6:2001:1488:800:400::400]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D97FB1B27D9 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2014 08:33:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.29.2.201] (nat-5.bravonet.cz [77.48.224.5]) by mail.nic.cz (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0F0BD13F890; Fri, 1 Aug 2014 17:33:50 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nic.cz; s=default; t=1406907231; bh=KvvPo9rXBe1qTRJlkP4UrStgA2SoZSAOs1xac10sVu4=; h=Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-Id:References:To; b=NdC53yegDcLinLw7vW/hFolUyvAhOEzwbt5cqp7TCZUd1HorzhNTWI7u2fYEAeWwc tb2bfdNPQGoKQo7mPWHTFW5k1YOewavScnCsu6Ik6SD1zDuzd5a/XdkOxnCG4oEpX2 fNbpXJW/l8QmWcr9B/zXo4ehemp0WtyfCKnqFzpc= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) From: Ladislav Lhotka In-Reply-To: <20140801123546.GD23649@mercury.ccil.org> Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2014 17:33:48 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <1EF1D799-6B51-4738-ADE7-CE8134EE8EA1@nic.cz> References: <53DB7757.8000600@cisco.com> <39ADA8F1-D204-4B2C-A1AC-0CA1F3B238D1@tzi.org> <20140801115408.GC23649@mercury.ccil.org> <20140801123546.GD23649@mercury.ccil.org> To: John Cowan X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.98.1 at mail X-Virus-Status: Clean Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/ermX7uM62zw-UcQ7YcXpLBPiqcY Cc: Carsten Bormann , Phillip Hallam-Baker , JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] Fwd: Blog: YANG Takes Off in the Industry X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2014 15:33:54 -0000 On 01 Aug 2014, at 14:35, John Cowan wrote: > Carsten Bormann scripsit: >=20 >> That vacuum is filled by draft-ietf-netmod-yang-json-00. (Nature >> abhors vacuum.) >=20 > Neither here nor there: that is merely a JSON expression of the XML. = It Not really: the XML-JSON translation is schema-driven so that, for = instance, XML leaf element text can become a string, numeric or boolean = value in JSON depending on the type of that leaf node in the YANG data = model. Also, an XML element may be mapped to a JSON name/object or = name/array depending on whether it is defined as a container or list in = YANG. So, YANG can and does really act as a domain-specific schema language = for both XML and JSON. Lada > has nothing to do with modeling JSON. >=20 > Phillip Hallam-Baker scripsit: >=20 >> But you could use it to create a data model that was represented in >> JSON. >=20 > I haven't read the RFC in any detail, but the model given in 4.2.2 = does > not seem to be a JSON model: it is far more complicated. >=20 >> And that community refuses to make any changes to XML or XML schema = to >> support protocol work. >=20 > Or for any other purpose. Ghu knows I tried. >=20 >> So XML is a bad choice for protocol design. >=20 > That conclusion I believe to be unwarranted. The problems with XML = are > mostly the hard-to-use APIs, of which one of the worst is that = embedded > in all browsers. If anything is carved in stone these days, it is the > DOM. >=20 > --=20 > John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org > Yakka foob mog. Grug pubbawup zink wattoom gazork. Chumble spuzz. > --Calvin, giving Newton's First Law "in his own words" >=20 > _______________________________________________ > json mailing list > json@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json -- Ladislav Lhotka, CZ.NIC Labs PGP Key ID: E74E8C0C From nobody Fri Aug 1 14:10:28 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 027971A00DE for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2014 14:10:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XcmuVAk7fuiO for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2014 14:10:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 003131A008B for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2014 14:10:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1XDK5n-0002rn-Nz for json@ietf.org; Fri, 01 Aug 2014 17:10:23 -0400 Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2014 17:10:23 -0400 From: John Cowan To: json@ietf.org Message-ID: <20140801211023.GI13476@mercury.ccil.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Sender: John Cowan Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/yYj57cI7GFsETUlmCa0jBl9m-vo Subject: [Json] Fixing the U+2028 and U+2029 problem X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2014 21:10:27 -0000 The unescaped characters U+2028 (LINE SEPARATOR) and U+2029 (PARAGRAPH SEPARATOR) are valid in JSON strings, but illegal in JavaScript strings. It's too late to warn about this in RFC 7159, but can we get a requirement to escape these two characters into the definition of I-JSON, please? It's a minor gotcha, but still a gotcha. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org Knowledge studies others / Wisdom is self-known; Muscle masters brothers / Self-mastery is bone; Content need never borrow / Ambition wanders blind; Vitality cleaves to the marrow / Leaving death behind. --Tao 33 (Bynner) From nobody Fri Aug 1 14:56:05 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4ADE41A00DF for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2014 14:56:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.602 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.602 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l0v74vnImxGL for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2014 14:56:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from na01-bl2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bl2lp0209.outbound.protection.outlook.com [207.46.163.209]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D16931A0084 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2014 14:56:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from BL2PR02MB307.namprd02.prod.outlook.com (10.141.91.21) by BL2PR02MB305.namprd02.prod.outlook.com (10.141.91.17) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.995.14; Fri, 1 Aug 2014 21:55:54 +0000 Received: from BL2PR02MB307.namprd02.prod.outlook.com ([10.141.91.21]) by BL2PR02MB307.namprd02.prod.outlook.com ([10.141.91.21]) with mapi id 15.00.0995.014; Fri, 1 Aug 2014 21:55:54 +0000 From: Larry Masinter To: IETF JSON WG Thread-Topic: "best practices" Vs. Profile for i-json Thread-Index: Ac+t0SKL9u+Yq7ZcQd6oHwhjU/yjwA== Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2014 21:55:54 +0000 Message-ID: <2d53157574f749e0b1399b9e39564ecd@BL2PR02MB307.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [50.184.24.49] x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID: x-forefront-prvs: 029097202E x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(6009001)(189002)(199002)(99286002)(19580395003)(87936001)(74662001)(92566001)(20776003)(64706001)(21056001)(79102001)(66066001)(76482001)(46102001)(105586002)(80022001)(83322001)(85306004)(2656002)(95666004)(15202345003)(77982001)(107046002)(74502001)(81542001)(107886001)(33646002)(101416001)(4396001)(81342001)(83072002)(229853001)(85852003)(76576001)(74316001)(31966008)(50986999)(86362001)(99396002)(54356999)(106356001)(15975445006)(110136001)(24736002)(108616003); DIR:OUT; SFP:; SCL:1; SRVR:BL2PR02MB305; H:BL2PR02MB307.namprd02.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; MLV:sfv; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; LANG:en; Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: adobe.com Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/wlLKy9Sb3GJtsxGuPxsIwENM9Hw Subject: [Json] "best practices" Vs. Profile for i-json X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2014 21:56:04 -0000 TXkgY29uY2x1c2lvbiBhZnRlciBzb21lIGRpc2N1c3Npb25zIGF0IElFVEYgaXMgdGhhdCBpLWpz b24gbmVlZHMgdG8gc2VwYXJhdGUgImJlc3QgcHJhY3RpY2VzIiB2cyAicHJvZmlsZSIuDQoNClRo ZSBTSE9VTEQgYmVsb25ncyB3aXRoIGJlc3QgcHJhY3RpY2VzOiBlLmcuLCAibnVtYmVycyBpbiBJ LUpTT04gU0hPVUxEIGJlIHJlcHJlc2VudGFibGUgYnkgSUVFRSBmbG9hdGluZyBwb2ludC4iDQoN CklmIHlvdSB3YW50IGEgcmVhbCBwcm9maWxlLCB0aG91Z2gsIHlvdSBuZWVkIGNsZWFyIGNyaXRl cmlhOg0KIkFsbCBudW1lcmljIHZhbHVlcyBpbiBJLUpTT04gTVVTVCByb3VuZC10cmlwIHRvIElF RUUgZmxvYXRpbmcgcG9pbnQgYW5kIGJhY2sgdG8gdGhlIHNhbWUgc3RyaW5nLiIgDQpBbmQgdGhl biBpZiB5b3Ugd2FudCBhbiBleGNlcHRpb24sIG1ha2UgaXQgYXBwbGljYXRpb24gZGVwZW5kZW50 OiAidGhlIHJlc3VsdCBtdXN0IGJlIEpTT04gYW5kIFNIT1VMRCBiZSBJLUpTT04iLg0KDQpCdXQg dGhlIGN1cnJlbnQgZG9jIG1peGVzIHRoZXNlIHRvZ2V0aGVyIGluIGEgd2F5IHRoYXQgbWFrZXMg aXQgbGVzcyB1c2VmdWwuDQoNCklmIHlvdSBkb24ndCB3YW50IGJvdGgsIGp1c3QgZG8gdGhlIHBy b2ZpbGUuICANCg0KUmVsYXRlZCB0b3BpYzogY29uc2lkZXIgSS1KU09OIGEga2luZCBvZiBub3Jt YWxpemF0aW9uIHRvIGFuIGlkZWFsaXplZCBKU09OIGRhdGEgbW9kZWwuIE1ha2UgdGhlIGRhdGEg bW9kZWwgZXhwbGljaXQuDQpJbnN1cmUgcm91bmQtdHJpcCBiZXR3ZWVuIGRhdGEgbW9kZWwgYW5k IGktanNvbiBpcyBub3QgaW5mb3JtYXRpb24gbG9zc3kuDQpUaGVuIGFueSBvcGVyYXRpb24gd2hp Y2ggZGVmaW5lcyBpdHNlbGYgaW4gdGVybXMgb2YgdGhlIGRhdGEgbW9kZWwgYW5kIG5vdCB0aGUg dGV4dHVhbCByZXByZXNlbnRhdGlvbiB3b3VsZCBhdXRvbWF0aWNhbGx5IGdldCBpLWpzb24gb3V0 cHV0LCBzdWNoIGFzIE1lcmdlL3BhdGNoIGFuZCBzY2hlbWFzLg0KDQoNCkxhcnJ5DQotLQ0KaHR0 cDovL2xhcnJ5Lm1hc2ludGVyLm5ldA0KDQoNCg== From nobody Fri Aug 1 16:01:46 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA61F1A0199 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2014 16:01:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 3.343 X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.343 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FF_IHOPE_YOU_SINK=2.166, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FRT_ADOBE2=2.455, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RSrWNsAAA_CZ for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2014 16:01:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-la0-x230.google.com (mail-la0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c03::230]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 29C0E1A0174 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2014 16:01:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-la0-f48.google.com with SMTP id gl10so3751449lab.35 for ; Fri, 01 Aug 2014 16:01:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=njxyIULMAgHY5f1ibm1U4R759UDskTuNaBQFWcuwIfI=; b=TPizsLrfXC/Vo4kII6YWpDDXASSA9s26CGGHaQKlikMuSQx0uudtYEWic4IxjDX92k iyow62FGHScaWJCn8okhNU/S6DYLeNyr7/16kktV9w+DabOzZPSOwyILbSppFyYRl+zM 3g8Zv0R/ZC/JgEoyGZ6gikY+Wfltbm8Orgla2qnbe5sXVuVX6oUHUcaAG2uEw3PXyYTW OgXsHxq285bqR5y4mZDJXOlopZcuhS5mDJrdna79zSZdnIJTrIOCOlk3AqDMeqllYEiF DQr5doc9kchp9S80l1qLJNba/NLdQ6Z0LQMGqCijMP0FakKRWL1l4XjiUIKLvJeOmw8O ksPA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.152.29.202 with SMTP id m10mr9530487lah.4.1406934101494; Fri, 01 Aug 2014 16:01:41 -0700 (PDT) Sender: hallam@gmail.com Received: by 10.112.122.50 with HTTP; Fri, 1 Aug 2014 16:01:41 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <2d53157574f749e0b1399b9e39564ecd@BL2PR02MB307.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> References: <2d53157574f749e0b1399b9e39564ecd@BL2PR02MB307.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2014 19:01:41 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: FK7Su7MEVvfa-QzOhs3Ey_9vThI Message-ID: From: Phillip Hallam-Baker To: Larry Masinter Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/daytiyt85KNDk_hwM3S2YciQrJo Cc: IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] "best practices" Vs. Profile for i-json X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2014 23:01:44 -0000 On Fri, Aug 1, 2014 at 5:55 PM, Larry Masinter wrote: > My conclusion after some discussions at IETF is that i-json needs to separate "best practices" vs "profile". > > The SHOULD belongs with best practices: e.g., "numbers in I-JSON SHOULD be representable by IEEE floating point." > > If you want a real profile, though, you need clear criteria: > "All numeric values in I-JSON MUST round-trip to IEEE floating point and back to the same string." > And then if you want an exception, make it application dependent: "the result must be JSON and SHOULD be I-JSON". Not happening unless we move to a binary encoding or a binary exponent encoding. To round trip the floating point between binary and decimal exponents is ridiculously non-trivial. From nobody Fri Aug 1 16:58:56 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 331201A01EE for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2014 16:58:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oOycsAmPO9Cx for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2014 16:58:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 976EE1A01E5 for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2014 16:58:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s71Nwn29015446; Sat, 2 Aug 2014 01:58:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.217.145] (p54892CA3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.137.44.163]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 91EC2263; Sat, 2 Aug 2014 01:58:48 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <20140801211023.GI13476@mercury.ccil.org> Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2014 01:58:46 +0200 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 428630326.72736-b149278978b3523e0e90c4cc6ca0a0bc Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20140801211023.GI13476@mercury.ccil.org> To: John Cowan X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/_X75pIePAUJeTyIPQjbLe7xs70M Cc: json@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Json] Fixing the U+2028 and U+2029 problem X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2014 23:58:54 -0000 On 01 Aug 2014, at 23:10, John Cowan wrote: > The unescaped characters U+2028 (LINE SEPARATOR) and U+2029 (PARAGRAPH > SEPARATOR) are valid in JSON strings, but illegal in JavaScript = strings. > It's too late to warn about this in RFC 7159, but can we get a = requirement > to escape these two characters into the definition of I-JSON, please? > It's a minor gotcha, but still a gotcha. I actually think it would be good to explicitly document this as a = non-goal. As in: =93Although JSON started out as a strict subset of the JavaScript = language, changes to JavaScript have caused this to be no longer true. = There is no expectation that an I-JSON generator will restrict itself to = a subset of modern JavaScript, specifically, there is no expectation = that U+2028 (LINE SEPARATOR) and U+2029 (PARAGRAPH SEPARATOR) are escaped in strings.=94 (Rationale: using JavaScript=92s eval for decoding JSON is strongly = discouraged.) Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten From nobody Fri Aug 1 23:11:45 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65ED41B28FC for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2014 23:11:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.436 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.436 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FF_IHOPE_YOU_SINK=2.166, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7PE1gcOWHgmR for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2014 23:11:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7ABD71A040B for ; Fri, 1 Aug 2014 23:11:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1XDSXR-0005bF-UP; Sat, 02 Aug 2014 02:11:29 -0400 Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2014 02:11:29 -0400 From: John Cowan To: Phillip Hallam-Baker Message-ID: <20140802061129.GB13625@mercury.ccil.org> References: <2d53157574f749e0b1399b9e39564ecd@BL2PR02MB307.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Sender: John Cowan Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/7i-eAuzsRgUnkMZxtwPTTym0CO0 Cc: IETF JSON WG , Larry Masinter Subject: Re: [Json] "best practices" Vs. Profile for i-json X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2014 06:11:43 -0000 Phillip Hallam-Baker scripsit: > Not happening unless we move to a binary encoding or a binary exponent > encoding. To round trip the floating point between binary and decimal > exponents is ridiculously non-trivial. I don't say it's trivial, but it *is* a solved problem, if by "round trip" you mean "guarantee that what one implementation writes, another implementation reads as the same float." The current C and C++ standards require round-trippability in this sense. This is *not* the same as "print a decimal number that is exactly equal to a given float". Denormalized floats can have hundreds of digits of precision. But if you accept round-tripping as sufficient, then every 32-bit float can be represented with at most 9 decimal digits, and every 64-bit float with at most 17. In particular, though there is no float exactly equal to 1.1, there *is* a float which is closer to 1.1 than any other float, and which may be safely printed as 1.1 and read back as the original float. See Quux and JonL's paper "How To Print Floating-Point Numbers Accurately" at or its successors at and . -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org Mark Twain on Cecil Rhodes: I admire him, I freely admit it, and when his time comes I shall buy a piece of the rope for a keepsake. From nobody Sat Aug 2 07:58:29 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BE121A0AF3 for ; Sat, 2 Aug 2014 07:58:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.278 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.278 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aQbktsq0f4I0 for ; Sat, 2 Aug 2014 07:58:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-la0-x234.google.com (mail-la0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c03::234]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B69471A0AF1 for ; Sat, 2 Aug 2014 07:58:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-la0-f52.google.com with SMTP id e16so4161534lan.11 for ; Sat, 02 Aug 2014 07:58:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=ljhG5mxCTYPkVsh0cQWIYtdSvtC16amfixxHFA9GLSU=; b=KDEGXWgjxD4vwr7mEFZ0tjFBf00hSimJcZ0L3s9+gU7cDsEi5qV6l0awV6pgllu2N8 iQQGwSkk4ZgJCYvmQWZoYqgBb2Q+IhiA8qKy9FhpsNMvNmjxVfSLS+t37QWSC1BjJKLN krhZMpd/H+ZRQRfNy9lhigB16sVVJOjTdlrRZM/HZo11jvlgHrjR0ptwkFZi/8yN/2P2 hX6YxUlbk9E/f3CNH/3cpgh6KAUesiYY4j/Bef7e474qCceaVuYUQ8BOu5aa7BTRzhYk LjTFJObhtB+6av09fVmMyShMv90/gyRM/qAkiSIaM5mUpTOBrilEIxNjkdlE/Ga6RoMd Osuw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.161.72 with SMTP id xq8mr12195860lbb.18.1406991503994; Sat, 02 Aug 2014 07:58:23 -0700 (PDT) Sender: hallam@gmail.com Received: by 10.112.122.50 with HTTP; Sat, 2 Aug 2014 07:58:23 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20140802061129.GB13625@mercury.ccil.org> References: <2d53157574f749e0b1399b9e39564ecd@BL2PR02MB307.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> <20140802061129.GB13625@mercury.ccil.org> Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2014 10:58:23 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: lSTXZGVDieMaduhcNOgDuxWCxqo Message-ID: From: Phillip Hallam-Baker To: John Cowan Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/HheqpinjRxPxrUlVeTqJ5LtX3N0 Cc: IETF JSON WG , Larry Masinter Subject: Re: [Json] "best practices" Vs. Profile for i-json X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2014 14:58:27 -0000 On Sat, Aug 2, 2014 at 2:11 AM, John Cowan wrote: > Phillip Hallam-Baker scripsit: > >> Not happening unless we move to a binary encoding or a binary exponent >> encoding. To round trip the floating point between binary and decimal >> exponents is ridiculously non-trivial. > > I don't say it's trivial, but it *is* a solved problem, if by "round > trip" you mean "guarantee that what one implementation writes, another > implementation reads as the same float." The current C and C++ > standards require round-trippability in this sense. Its not a problem that can be solved in an IETF spec by referencing another spec. At the very minimum, code is required. But if it is going to be any use in practice we would need to validate each implementation which is hard and there will be many non-compliant implementations around and no way to know which is which. IF this is a requirement then extending the spec to include a direct representation of binary exponent floating point is the only way to be sure it can be relied on. From nobody Mon Aug 4 05:29:11 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE1741B2AAE for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 05:29:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.877 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.877 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FRT_ADOBE2=2.455, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dlIgt8vaVfIh for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 05:29:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lb0-f176.google.com (mail-lb0-f176.google.com [209.85.217.176]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8B5841B2AAC for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 05:29:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lb0-f176.google.com with SMTP id u10so5199074lbd.7 for ; Mon, 04 Aug 2014 05:29:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=l025kmbm0KxRiwQRiyGyD6GgmhSUgvYgy+or/OBKGsk=; b=MRVhlka3kV8FNucsKA2wAfvKhlvebDdeCgAv3UjHDBRBD9FgJ1T9sebZO5fHvJWIc/ 6MdT7jcYQ+lU+O21Ax0Un+eoEfE8Ud5k/Pn8mxC1bT4UwPinFxf9WtBOWmVUKbGJrECF ccBF56CCEngvljhxwTU/pcmMFWgp+2q6AGptZVQJibBZ2tedXB/3j+AAv7z/VbWLAT+w IuVf8KnYxwzmPZpCsnOsjN0egem3g0zcKr+ssCjmofM0dxPP/hGTEEThsjg6AWB5nKPz 8e6JL5CA6t136AZ7hmSewpoCve2R1jFe4mMX7tT2e+mhpmIeNuZyBDBUtK8As+Tj8Ib5 yQ2g== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlVyIIFCPCwMkLwomTXgwa9yVOwXy1Bo3xqQEQuveaaDDtiJqA++3mfBwvakMbsohetBRhM MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.235.42 with SMTP id uj10mr2476335lbc.80.1407155343274; Mon, 04 Aug 2014 05:29:03 -0700 (PDT) Sender: stedolan@stedolan.net Received: by 10.114.22.42 with HTTP; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 05:29:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [131.111.184.26] In-Reply-To: <2d53157574f749e0b1399b9e39564ecd@BL2PR02MB307.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> References: <2d53157574f749e0b1399b9e39564ecd@BL2PR02MB307.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2014 13:29:03 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: ql-pTToi2TSDyEVR_TlFj7MnvpE Message-ID: From: Stephen Dolan To: Larry Masinter Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/gls6hyGqXumeyupTRJkkRW4iDSU Cc: IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] "best practices" Vs. Profile for i-json X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2014 12:29:07 -0000 On Fri, Aug 1, 2014 at 10:55 PM, Larry Masinter wrote: > "All numeric values in I-JSON MUST round-trip to IEEE floating point and back to the same string." The exact requirement is more subtle than this. The number 1.1 cannot be represented exactly as an IEEE754 double. The closest number which can is: A = 1.100000000000000088817841970012523233890533447265625 The requirements that most languages make of their double conversion functions (at least, those that bother to specify such things) are: (1) parsing a string returns the IEEE754 double which is closer to the decimal number than any other IEEE754 double (with rules for breaking ties, and rules for strings representing numbers outside [-DBL_MAX, DBL_MAX]) (2) printing a double returns some string whose decimal value is closer to the provided IEEE754 double than to any other IEEE754 double (with similar exceptions for ties, nan, inf, etc.) Some languages (e.g. Java) go further and require that printing return the shortest string compatible with (2). Without this condition, there are many different strings that validly correspond to A above: "1.1" (the shortest), "1.10", "1.10000000000000009". In general, print(parse(str)) need not be equal to str, but parse(print(parse(str))) must be equal to parse(str). The point of this is that being a valid string representation of an IEEE754 number has nothing to do with round-tripping to the same string, and is not a property of the string itself. Instead, the condition that specifies "use doubles with json" has to do with when JSON values are considered equivalent. Two JSON documents differing only in whitespace outside strings are (MUST be? SHOULD be?) considered equivalent by any implementation. If you want to specify "use doubles" you should state something similar, like: "An implementation [MUST NOT/SHOULD NOT] distinguish between two numeric literals whose decimal values round to the same IEEE754 double-precision value (using standard round-to-nearest, ties-to-even rounding)." Stephen From nobody Mon Aug 4 07:30:39 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7FF21B2B13 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 07:30:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.552 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.552 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.001, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id skT0WJUeNEQs for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 07:30:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hoffman.proper.com (IPv6.Hoffman.Proper.COM [IPv6:2605:8e00:100:41::81]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CC3C91B2B22 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 07:30:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.20.30.90] (50-1-51-60.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com [50.1.51.60]) (authenticated bits=0) by hoffman.proper.com (8.14.9/8.14.7) with ESMTP id s74EUWGl010096 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 07:30:34 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: hoffman.proper.com: Host 50-1-51-60.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com [50.1.51.60] claimed to be [10.20.30.90] From: Paul Hoffman Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2014 07:30:32 -0700 To: json@ietf.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/t4nNLnKqpA2z-uI5OggbhEy8lKI Subject: [Json] Coming to better consensus on draft-ietf-json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2014 14:30:38 -0000 Greetings again. The WG seems unable to come to consensus on the choice = of the record separator in draft-ietf-json-text-sequence. The recent = poll finds that there is not even rough consensus about whether using = the LF is better or worse than using the RS character in the current = draft, and yet people on both sides feel vehement on their choice. However, the earlier threads about this document show some common = ground. There is definite WG interest in log files with sequences of = JSON texts, but no agreement in the result as it stands. There was also = early statements about the protocol being more complex than was needed, = with procedures for receivers dealing with partial texts and truncated = entries. If the protocol is focused on just system log files (not hand-typed = files), and without trying to deal with partial texts and truncated = entries, the protocol becomes much simpler and the choice of record = separator becomes much clearer. Given this, the chairs ask the document author to produce a new draft: - Move the first paragraph of Section 3 into the introduction. - Change the description in Section 2 to be: JSON-sequence =3D ws *(JSON-text ws RS ws) RS =3D %x1E ws =3D JSON-text =3D - Remove Sections 2.1, 2.1.1, 2.2, and 3. Remove the last paragraph of = the Security Considerations. The chairs believe that such a draft will be more likely to achieve at = least rough WG consensus. --Paul Hoffman and Matt Miller= From nobody Mon Aug 4 09:45:57 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8999C1A0421 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 09:45:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OPvAUfRLXLdF for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 09:45:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 333901A0053 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 09:45:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1XELOO-0005JD-Vz; Mon, 04 Aug 2014 12:45:49 -0400 Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2014 12:45:48 -0400 From: John Cowan To: Stephen Dolan Message-ID: <20140804164548.GD28851@mercury.ccil.org> References: <2d53157574f749e0b1399b9e39564ecd@BL2PR02MB307.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Sender: John Cowan Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/tWsamrs7SZ96ejKBR26fabvt2VM Cc: IETF JSON WG , Larry Masinter Subject: Re: [Json] "best practices" Vs. Profile for i-json X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2014 16:45:55 -0000 Stephen Dolan scripsit: > The exact requirement is more subtle than this. Thank you for explaining so clearly what I have been fumbling so badly. > "An implementation [MUST NOT/SHOULD NOT] distinguish between two > numeric literals whose decimal values round to the same IEEE754 > double-precision value (using standard round-to-nearest, ties-to-even > rounding)." +1 -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org Business before pleasure, if not too bloomering long before. --Nicholas van Rijn From nobody Mon Aug 4 09:55:10 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 501B01A0029 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 09:55:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.666 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.666 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id L7N0kR4AiN9e for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 09:55:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a66.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CB291A0023 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 09:55:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a66.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a66.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4798B350082; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 09:55:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to; s=cryptonector.com; bh=XHkad9kblJg+UE JhPe8lWfdkaJA=; b=rAdTKXRKDlg5ypZ/SywMdzQcDsG83DfmRbyj5qvpYoBGgU g77VNxH6qC1Y1Cq0Eyq6w6XvOEDjkcabxZZDMvDRFGT6vbdrOGWuPtMPLGn5S/iO GTO8kQLi6kOOaZF6hWCdRAjXiwuhCQXkMm8i2mdTG6bGr7Y8zczrKGl0+AwW4= Received: from localhost (108-207-244-174.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net [108.207.244.174]) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a66.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id E48CF350072; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 09:55:07 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2014 11:55:07 -0500 From: Nico Williams To: Stephen Dolan Message-ID: <20140804165506.GL3579@localhost> References: <2d53157574f749e0b1399b9e39564ecd@BL2PR02MB307.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/tyYWkZY06Dhy08KWZ1tn5QohKQo Cc: IETF JSON WG , Larry Masinter Subject: Re: [Json] "best practices" Vs. Profile for i-json X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2014 16:55:09 -0000 On Mon, Aug 04, 2014 at 01:29:03PM +0100, Stephen Dolan wrote: > Two JSON documents differing only in whitespace outside strings are > (MUST be? SHOULD be?) considered equivalent by any implementation. If > you want to specify "use doubles" you should state something similar, > like: > > "An implementation [MUST NOT/SHOULD NOT] distinguish between two > numeric literals whose decimal values round to the same IEEE754 > double-precision value (using standard round-to-nearest, ties-to-even > rounding)." Is a MUST really needed? Suppose you have an encoder that produces numbers (not irrationals) that require better-than-IEEE754 to represent exactly. A parser that can only handle IEEE754 should accept such numbers, but with loss of precision/range -- exactly what we already knew to expect from JSON as far as interoperability goes. My concern is that a MUST NOT -even a SHOULD NOT- is too strong and will either a) cause implementations with better-than-IEE754 numbers to lose date at encode time even when the next parser in the chain also has better-than-IEE754 numbers, or b) this will discourage better-than-IEE754 implementations. We might end up stuck with IEEE754 for a long, long time. It should suffice to have a requirement that parsers support at least IEEE754 (e.g., not 32-bit integers) and a warning that sending numbers that cannot be represented with IEEE754 may lead to data loss. Nico -- From nobody Mon Aug 4 10:48:06 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D25B1A00A2 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 10:48:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.602 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.602 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3ln73i7FSyJL for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 10:48:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AF4241A004D for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 10:47:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1XEMMP-00035Y-Bt; Mon, 04 Aug 2014 13:47:49 -0400 Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2014 13:47:49 -0400 From: John Cowan To: Nico Williams Message-ID: <20140804174749.GE28851@mercury.ccil.org> References: <2d53157574f749e0b1399b9e39564ecd@BL2PR02MB307.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> <20140804165506.GL3579@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20140804165506.GL3579@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Sender: John Cowan Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/3gikDxTCID4pdrpKfXrC-xSYHe8 Cc: Stephen Dolan , Larry Masinter , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] "best practices" Vs. Profile for i-json X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2014 17:48:05 -0000 Nico Williams scripsit: > Is a MUST really needed? Suppose you have an encoder that produces > numbers (not irrationals) that require better-than-IEEE754 to represent > exactly. A parser that can only handle IEEE754 should accept such > numbers, but with loss of precision/range -- exactly what we already > knew to expect from JSON as far as interoperability goes. A fair point. We can use the verbal formula employed by Unicode for normalization, something like this: A sending implementation [MUST NOT/SHOULD NOT] expect a receiving implementation to distinguish between two numeric literals whose decimal values round to the same IEEE754 double-precision value (using standard round-to-nearest, ties-to-even rounding). How's that? -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org A few times, I did some exuberant stomping about, like a hippo auditioning for Riverdance, though I stopped when I thought I heard something at the far side of the room falling over in rhythm with my feet. --Joseph Zitt From nobody Mon Aug 4 11:02:11 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 261121A00DF for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 11:02:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.666 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.666 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ggrHEuwMsvaX for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 11:02:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a85.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3DB91A00DD for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 11:01:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a85.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a85.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73516BBA06B; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 11:01:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to; s=cryptonector.com; bh=+dsmvJ/pTfXSk0 G/hHojokTDeaQ=; b=vYDLpOp0gzgijjs5VRMMytieix2PDGjSunNgsJvGd++nnR pZNr9TQZq/HAvbBQLoGCWJORZ2oSW+1rJqt50FDQp2qag1FOIdn0HfpNQREd6B2E CjpXfXsiCnxovVilyo62qFsEr/e04JXtz6qsSpB0ZNPNuA4arCvS69HcmFdSY= Received: from localhost (108-207-244-174.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net [108.207.244.174]) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a85.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 0C6D3BBA063; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 11:01:56 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2014 13:01:56 -0500 From: Nico Williams To: John Cowan Message-ID: <20140804180155.GP3579@localhost> References: <2d53157574f749e0b1399b9e39564ecd@BL2PR02MB307.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> <20140804165506.GL3579@localhost> <20140804174749.GE28851@mercury.ccil.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20140804174749.GE28851@mercury.ccil.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/Xe-UV1H3HNJFre9znEy_EDjFEgs Cc: Stephen Dolan , Larry Masinter , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] "best practices" Vs. Profile for i-json X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2014 18:02:06 -0000 On Mon, Aug 04, 2014 at 01:47:49PM -0400, John Cowan wrote: > Nico Williams scripsit: > > > Is a MUST really needed? Suppose you have an encoder that produces > > numbers (not irrationals) that require better-than-IEEE754 to represent > > exactly. A parser that can only handle IEEE754 should accept such > > numbers, but with loss of precision/range -- exactly what we already > > knew to expect from JSON as far as interoperability goes. > > A fair point. We can use the verbal formula employed by Unicode for > normalization, something like this: > > A sending implementation [MUST NOT/SHOULD NOT] expect a receiving > implementation to distinguish between two numeric literals whose > decimal values round to the same IEEE754 double-precision value > (using standard round-to-nearest, ties-to-even rounding). > > How's that? Perfect. Make that a MUST NOT. Do we need a requirement/recommendation that parsers implement at least IEEE754? Nico -- From nobody Mon Aug 4 12:23:46 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA3891A0295 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 12:23:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.502 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.502 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tHZfQw99vYh2 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 12:23:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com [173.37.86.74]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 045DE1A0294 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 12:23:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1790; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1407180222; x=1408389822; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:content-id: content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=eKaUMnkikHsyCY2wbWEQBw18n17vW4pS9KoWMUVkF2o=; b=G1/ozhfSlUzob5tRvDZ9KC3smIkbQXxNWBTUpdyZ4EUKKM24Psn0BMjs FX2XMYhaeGm3Lw9vrNtgQJabo7Kro8dKeEpUvmdErWcWr4htm5J4xdhWm Cw6L7ujWW/u8M40rxEzM56gAkbOFSWzDzaOCGIagz4WOQpRWYaEKormV/ g=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AhgFACnd31OtJV2S/2dsb2JhbABbgw2BLYJ0zXaDGxp4FneECiMRVwEiAiYCBDAVEgSIVZ4hjyuXFxeBLI4FgxuBUgWcBpRfg02CMg X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.01,799,1400025600"; d="scan'208";a="345028562" Received: from rcdn-core-10.cisco.com ([173.37.93.146]) by rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 04 Aug 2014 19:23:41 +0000 Received: from xhc-rcd-x09.cisco.com (xhc-rcd-x09.cisco.com [173.37.183.83]) by rcdn-core-10.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s74JNf7Z031048 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL) for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 19:23:41 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com ([169.254.15.102]) by xhc-rcd-x09.cisco.com ([173.37.183.83]) with mapi id 14.03.0123.003; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 14:23:41 -0500 From: "Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)" To: "json@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: discoverability of separators in draft-ietf-json-text-sequence Thread-Index: AQHPsBmYmm/28gTeik2CkWeDK296Hw== Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2014 19:23:40 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.4.3.140616 x-originating-ip: [10.129.24.242] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <5E01FDFB8A54C448B668565AE3B6A49F@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/XRqOi19pSsJCW3Rk0GrO-i4wnrQ Subject: [Json] discoverability of separators in draft-ietf-json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2014 19:23:43 -0000 V2hhdCBpZiB5b3UgY291bGQgdXNlIGJhc2ljYWxseSBhbnkgc2VwYXJhdG9yIHlvdSB3YW50ZWQg aW4gYSB0ZXh0DQpzZXF1ZW5jZSwgZXZlcnkgc2VxdWVuY2UgTVVTVCBzdGFydCB3aXRoIHRoYXQg c2VwYXJhdG9yLCBhbmQgd2UgZ2F2ZQ0Kc3VnZ2VzdGlvbnMgZm9yIG9uZXMgd2UgdGhpbmsgd291 bGQgd29yayB3aXRoIHNvbWUgdGV4dCBhYm91dCB0aGUNCnRyYWRlLW9mZnM/DQoNClByb2Nlc3Nv cnMgd291bGQgcmVhZCB1cCB0byB0aGUgZmlyc3QgWywgeywgIiwgbiwgdCwgZiwgLiwgLSwgb3Ig bnVtYmVyLA0KYW5kIHRyZWF0IHRoYXQgYXMgdGhlIHNlcGFyYXRvciAocG90ZW50aWFsbHkgaWdu b3JpbmcgYW4gaXJyYXRpb25hbCBCT00gaWYNCnRoZXkgbGlrZSkuICBUaGUgc2VwYXJhdG9yIE1V U1QgYmUgZXNjYXBlZCBpbiBhbnkgb2YgdGhlIEpTT04gdGV4dHMgaW4gdGhlDQpzZXF1ZW5jZS4g IFdoZW5ldmVyIHRoZSBzZXBhcmF0b3IgaXMgcmVhZCwgYSBuZXcgSlNPTiB0ZXh0IHN0YXJ0cw0K aW1tZWRpYXRlbHkgYWZ0ZXIgaXQuICBBbnkgcGVuZGluZyB0ZXh0IHRoYXQgd2FzIG5vdCAoeWV0 KSBhIHZhbGlkIEpTT04NCnRleHQgdGhhdCB3YXMgd2FpdGluZyB0byBiZSBwcm9jZXNzZWQgd2hl biB0aGUgc2VwYXJhdG9yIGlzIGVuY291bnRlcmVkDQpzaWduaWZpZXMgYSB3cml0ZSBlcnJvciwg YW5kIE1BWSBiZSBpZ25vcmVkLiAgV2hpdGVzcGFjZSBjb3VsZCB0cmFpbCBhDQpKU09OIHRleHQg YmVmb3JlIHRoZSBuZXh0IHNlcGFyYXRvciwgd2hpY2ggY291bGQgYmUgaWdub3JlZCBhY2NvcmRp bmcgdG8NCnRoZSBwcmV2aW91cyBydWxlLg0KDQpBQk5GIHN1Y2ggYXM6DQoNCkpTT04tc2VxdWVu Y2UgPSAqKHNlcCB2YWx1ZSBpZ25vcmFibGUtd3MpDQpzZXAgPSAxKihub3QgW3sibnRmLi0wMTIz NDU2Nzg5KQ0KaWdub3JhYmxlLXdzID0gd3MNCndzID0gPGdpdmVuIGJ5IFJGQzcxNTk+DQogICAg IHZhbHVlID0gPGdpdmVuIGJ5IFJGQzcxNTk+DQoNClRoZSBvdGhlciBzeW50YWN0aWNhbGx5IHZh bGlkIGNoYXJhY3RlcnMgaW4gYSBKU09OIHRleHQgc2hvdWxkIHByb2JhYmx5IGJlDQpmb3JiaWRk ZW4gaW4gYSBzZXBhcmF0b3IgYXMgd2VsbC4NCg0KQWx0ZXJuYXRlbHksIHdlIGNvdWxkIGRlY2lk ZSB0aGF0IHRoZSBzZXBhcmF0b3Igd2FzIGFsd2F5cyBleGFjdGx5IG9uZQ0KYnl0ZSwgYnV0IGtl ZXAgZXZlcnl0aGluZyBlbHNlIHRoZSBzYW1lIGFzIGFib3ZlLCBzaW1wbGlmeWluZyB0aGUNCnBy b2Nlc3NvcnMgYSBnb29kIGFtb3VudC4NCg0KDQotLSANCkpvZSBIaWxkZWJyYW5kDQoNCg== From nobody Mon Aug 4 12:27:39 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4F3B1A01E7 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 12:27:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.602 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.602 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mnWAjo34vIfU for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 12:27:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 997891A0295 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 12:27:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1XENuu-0004jK-JG; Mon, 04 Aug 2014 15:27:32 -0400 Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2014 15:27:32 -0400 From: John Cowan To: "Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)" Message-ID: <20140804192732.GJ28851@mercury.ccil.org> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Sender: John Cowan Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/AtwlIkTQrSEmqOozs3VzvSVetks Cc: "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] discoverability of separators in draft-ietf-json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2014 19:27:38 -0000 Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr) scripsit: > The other syntactically valid characters in a JSON text should probably be > forbidden in a separator as well. Essentially every character is syntactically valid in a JSON text, excepting C0 controls, which is why we have been talking about newline and RS. > Alternately, we could decide that the separator was always exactly one > byte, but keep everything else the same as above, simplifying the > processors a good amount. That limits it to ASCII, which I suppose is tolerable. But at that rate you might as well just pick one, like "/". -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org Would your name perchance be surname Puppet, given name Sock? --Rick Moen From nobody Mon Aug 4 12:34:37 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDA531A02D1 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 12:34:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.502 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.502 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zcGqI_CafJhf for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 12:34:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com [173.37.86.74]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 47CA71A02D2 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 12:34:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1672; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1407180874; x=1408390474; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-id:content-transfer-encoding: mime-version; bh=pJ2SM7Bzh3RhDdqKESlY+eQ+pd2qN27W3kbhQTXPaqE=; b=LHpHZdM/lDKDGsajJA7p8UQfbW4SpAUsslm6Vi8pcvNdfP3gNrRDWfsY Fen7D1zc/XsPvpJ7CcOHMq+hitAAil5bLF7JQ1YOClmafs9JESaElxz9r OCPGjzpfx6Vr7Il/GCUGsMEPTcdo0TtmE/8V7C8ZWzyg8/cXgmRuxVEag Y=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AkAFAIff31OtJA2H/2dsb2JhbABbgw2BKQSCdNERARl4FneEBAEBAwEjEUUQAgEIGgImAgICMBUQAgQOBYg6CK1NlxcXgSyNbTMHgnmBUgEEnAaUX4NNbIFG X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.01,800,1400025600"; d="scan'208";a="345030922" Received: from alln-core-2.cisco.com ([173.36.13.135]) by rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 04 Aug 2014 19:34:33 +0000 Received: from xhc-aln-x01.cisco.com (xhc-aln-x01.cisco.com [173.36.12.75]) by alln-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s74JYXnS012698 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Mon, 4 Aug 2014 19:34:33 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com ([169.254.15.102]) by xhc-aln-x01.cisco.com ([173.36.12.75]) with mapi id 14.03.0123.003; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 14:34:33 -0500 From: "Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)" To: John Cowan Thread-Topic: [Json] discoverability of separators in draft-ietf-json-text-sequence Thread-Index: AQHPsBmYmm/28gTeik2CkWeDK296H5vBJ+QA//+dbgA= Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2014 19:34:32 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20140804192732.GJ28851@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20140804192732.GJ28851@mercury.ccil.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.4.3.140616 x-originating-ip: [10.129.24.242] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <573E8203DEFB034DA8DB68AF6724645A@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/Tp6roTUHMBSJrAG9KgBZleXZhcM Cc: "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] discoverability of separators in draft-ietf-json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2014 19:34:36 -0000 T24gOC80LzE0LCAxOjI3IFBNLCAiSm9obiBDb3dhbiIgPGNvd2FuQG1lcmN1cnkuY2NpbC5vcmc+ IHdyb3RlOg0KDQo+Sm9lIEhpbGRlYnJhbmQgKGpoaWxkZWJyKSBzY3JpcHNpdDoNCj4NCj4+IFRo ZSBvdGhlciBzeW50YWN0aWNhbGx5IHZhbGlkIGNoYXJhY3RlcnMgaW4gYSBKU09OIHRleHQgc2hv dWxkIHByb2JhYmx5DQo+PmJlDQo+PiBmb3JiaWRkZW4gaW4gYSBzZXBhcmF0b3IgYXMgd2VsbC4N Cj4NCj5Fc3NlbnRpYWxseSBldmVyeSBjaGFyYWN0ZXIgaXMgc3ludGFjdGljYWxseSB2YWxpZCBp biBhIEpTT04gdGV4dCwNCj5leGNlcHRpbmcNCj5DMCBjb250cm9scywgd2hpY2ggaXMgd2h5IHdl IGhhdmUgYmVlbiB0YWxraW5nIGFib3V0IG5ld2xpbmUgYW5kIFJTLg0KDQpJJ20gb25seSBpbnRl cmVzdGVkIGluIHRoZSBvbmVzIHRoYXQgY2FuJ3QgYmUgZXNjYXBlZCwgc3VjaCBhcyAiLCIuICBJ Zg0KeW91IHBpY2tlZCAiZyIgYXMgeW91ciBzZXBhcmF0b3IsIHlvdSBjb3VsZCBnZXQgYnksIGFz IGxvbmcgYXMgYWxsIG9mIHlvdXINCnN0cmluZ3MgdXNlZCAiXHUwMDY3Ii4NCg0KPj4gQWx0ZXJu YXRlbHksIHdlIGNvdWxkIGRlY2lkZSB0aGF0IHRoZSBzZXBhcmF0b3Igd2FzIGFsd2F5cyBleGFj dGx5IG9uZQ0KPj4gYnl0ZSwgYnV0IGtlZXAgZXZlcnl0aGluZyBlbHNlIHRoZSBzYW1lIGFzIGFi b3ZlLCBzaW1wbGlmeWluZyB0aGUNCj4+IHByb2Nlc3NvcnMgYSBnb29kIGFtb3VudC4NCj4NCj5U aGF0IGxpbWl0cyBpdCB0byBBU0NJSSwgd2hpY2ggSSBzdXBwb3NlIGlzIHRvbGVyYWJsZS4NCj5C dXQgYXQgdGhhdCByYXRlIHlvdSBtaWdodCBhcyB3ZWxsIGp1c3QgcGljayBvbmUsIGxpa2UgIi8i Lg0KDQpHb29kIHBvaW50LiAgSXQgd291bGQgYWxzbyBiZSBhIGxvdCBlYXNpZXIgdG8gd3JpdGUg dGhlIEFCTkYgYXMganVzdCBhbnkNCkMwIGNvbnRyb2wuDQoNCkl0J3MgYWxzbyBsaWtlbHkgd29y dGggbWVudGlvbmluZyBhcyBpbXBsZW1lbnRhdGlvbiBhZHZpY2UgdGhhdCB5b3UgbWlnaHQNCmdl dCBhIHN0cmVhbSBvZiBvY3RldHMgdGhhdCBhcmUgaW52YWxpZCBVVEYtOCAoc3VjaCBhcyBzZXAg MjIgRjAgOUYgOTIgc2VwDQpnb29kLXZhbHVlKSwgYW5kIGEgcHJvY2Vzc29yIHNob3VsZCBzdGls bCBiZSBhYmxlIHRvIHJlY292ZXIgd2hlbiBpdCBzZWVzDQp0aGUgc2VwYXJhdG9yLg0KDQotLSAN CkpvZSBIaWxkZWJyYW5kDQoNCg0KDQo= From nobody Mon Aug 4 12:38:25 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C1051A02EE for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 12:38:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.347 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.347 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qkVJl2pTv1yT for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 12:38:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hoffman.proper.com (IPv6.Hoffman.Proper.COM [IPv6:2605:8e00:100:41::81]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6C6821A02ED for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 12:38:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.20.30.90] (50-1-51-60.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com [50.1.51.60]) (authenticated bits=0) by hoffman.proper.com (8.14.9/8.14.7) with ESMTP id s74JcFtU041614 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 4 Aug 2014 12:38:16 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: hoffman.proper.com: Host 50-1-51-60.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com [50.1.51.60] claimed to be [10.20.30.90] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) From: Paul Hoffman In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2014 12:38:14 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <1FD7A9DF-1FF2-405A-882C-B03B003BA60F@vpnc.org> References: To: Joe Hildebrand X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/B02FkBspSkj2-TprIeEh3i2HrUA Cc: "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] discoverability of separators in draft-ietf-json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2014 19:38:23 -0000 On Aug 4, 2014, at 12:23 PM, Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr) = wrote: > What if you could use basically any separator you wanted in a text > sequence, every sequence MUST start with that separator, and we gave > suggestions for ones we think would work with some text about the > trade-offs? That would preclude starting the value with ignorable-ws, while allowing = the value to have ignorable-ws after. Allowing ignorable-ws in one of = the two positions seems likely to cause errors. --Paul Hoffman= From nobody Mon Aug 4 12:45:56 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E59E21A0273 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 12:45:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.666 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.666 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oTaKbyPIZuky for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 12:45:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a29.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BA0E1A01F7 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 12:45:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a29.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a29.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6FE1674060; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 12:45:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to; s=cryptonector.com; bh=cm06eWqTOxiwTr 7vT1BNVqcWJzo=; b=erKkBjtY6QfAEreVhI+w2NqyHmPVCd2ngFUl7OkYPnLYFU yt0NXXZZiubGGT+MYg7ovC33azZjUu8QKvuubfsOCAiaEzzj7aDUXo6m8pDa04px bX02xd+6MXk1W6WS0qRWDRds+HvTvHV2Fg3jaZ1tkbcBeXIst0eQmEgW2rl0Q= Received: from localhost (108-207-244-174.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net [108.207.244.174]) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a29.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 6071B674058; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 12:45:52 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2014 14:45:51 -0500 From: Nico Williams To: Paul Hoffman Message-ID: <20140804194550.GZ3579@localhost> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/izdIEKu4FPGaQcDNgleT-227VJE Cc: json@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Json] Coming to better consensus on draft-ietf-json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2014 19:45:54 -0000 On Mon, Aug 04, 2014 at 07:30:32AM -0700, Paul Hoffman wrote: > If the protocol is focused on just system log files (not hand-typed It isn't. Logfiles is but one use case. I mentioned Riak's use of JSON text sequences for serializing databse query results. > files), and without trying to deal with partial texts and truncated > entries, the protocol becomes much simpler and the choice of record > separator becomes much clearer. I don't agree. Log writers can just s/LF/SP/g then use LF as the separator. > Given this, the chairs ask the document author to produce a new draft: > > - Move the first paragraph of Section 3 into the introduction. > > - Change the description in Section 2 to be: > > JSON-sequence = ws *(JSON-text ws RS ws) > RS = %x1E > ws = > JSON-text = I don't understand. There's no consensus as to LF vs. RS, so you're picking one of the alternatives? On what basis? Nico -- From nobody Mon Aug 4 13:07:58 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3B241A026A for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 13:07:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TJp1GrN-y1G5 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 13:07:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2994F1A01C8 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 13:07:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s74K7ewm008848; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 22:07:40 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.217.145] (p548903B9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.137.3.185]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 09CAB1D; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 22:07:39 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2014 22:07:38 +0200 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 428875657.991874-51430dbd3ac97edfe11aed2cf10ae66b Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: To: "Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/mWcRPK0cXylVBymvX-TH5pNK7xo Cc: "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] discoverability of separators in draft-ietf-json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2014 20:07:56 -0000 On 04 Aug 2014, at 21:23, Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr) = wrote: > What if you could use basically any X you wanted in a Y, That is a good approach if there is an installed base of Y with many = different existing choices for X and there is a benefit to be compatible = with all/many of them. For something designed from scratch, I would always try to make a = decision. (At least when it comes to bikeshed-level decisions.) (Sometimes the decision turns out to be the subtly wrong one after a = couple decades, as with assigning the negative sign to the flow of = electrons or with MSB-first network byte order. Letting textbooks = choose whether they want electrons to be negative in the preface sounds = about as bad as having a protocol choose byte order in the preamble.) Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten From nobody Mon Aug 4 13:14:14 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 174931A01E8 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 13:14:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Izv15Gj8P3Zy for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 13:14:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vc0-f180.google.com (mail-vc0-f180.google.com [209.85.220.180]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EED2C1A01C8 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 13:14:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vc0-f180.google.com with SMTP id ij19so11721119vcb.25 for ; Mon, 04 Aug 2014 13:14:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=NsoJ6mqD168cPcKMBU/eHpyl+seiAuhDaqqahSYnRRs=; b=bupWTMTmCB/fmIjr7vIou7aDoxj8XRjAfvBrHJG9mscJk/mA4Y0PAD/KUirKJ5HYrP 7UrPbhhf5BNOhSFw+XTPZTvsr4bvpee75KNU8rbJikegvOrlpeuzhMFyiE1Obe02LWUT NUXo/mSi1HMeLkf9mfRE+DKfmSYtdChZCSSSLB6qe3w+brqp5ZEPsxnGaRAlPSgCSjtz G64XNgaR1IKMrEW1FHeLug/8wlE4PCFL4LsHpEnuGuRIANQGWRp3tbMK+WVX/Rxc0KRP 9HvszHjDHj1jNUykoRgyVl0dygzMKmA72jCHZ9vh+eDGgx8FM1UcLUEeilGzQeT+I74Y UgVA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnwKsClMnK7zGQpUD2HrANEwAKmiuP1VVNQeRMh14wxc7uoMsVanT8Ac6ycw70TRLCpTeFR X-Received: by 10.52.8.71 with SMTP id p7mr3959676vda.77.1407183247882; Mon, 04 Aug 2014 13:14:07 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.221.49.194 with HTTP; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 13:13:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [24.84.235.32] In-Reply-To: <20140804194550.GZ3579@localhost> References: <20140804194550.GZ3579@localhost> From: Tim Bray Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2014 13:13:47 -0700 Message-ID: To: Nico Williams Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf303347359feb1c04ffd36175 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/4MQOT_pIo8S1tO0Xkldl1UQL2Yw Cc: Paul Hoffman , "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] Coming to better consensus on draft-ietf-json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2014 20:14:11 -0000 --20cf303347359feb1c04ffd36175 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Aug 4, 2014 at 12:45 PM, Nico Williams wrote: > =E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B > I don't understand. There's no consensus as to LF vs. RS, so you're > =E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B > picking one of the alternatives? On what basis? > =E2=80=8BThe chairs think they have a better chance of getting to consensus= with the changes they outline. They=E2=80=99re the chairs, that=E2=80=99s their= job. Make the changes and see what happens; it might work. -T=E2=80=8B =E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B =E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B > > Nico > -- > > _______________________________________________ > json mailing list > json@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json > --=20 - Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a private message, see https://keybase.io/timbray) --20cf303347359feb1c04ffd36175 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable --20cf303347359feb1c04ffd36175-- From nobody Mon Aug 4 13:18:47 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 811F81A02FF for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 13:18:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.666 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.666 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uQRutt4b86JU for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 13:18:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a33.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F32D1A026A for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 13:18:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a33.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a33.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2B64594072; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 13:18:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to; s=cryptonector.com; bh=hL9C6r9N5o8bMh 3R3AC7wEa9ujM=; b=kqxB87kG7FugWlyduSWmujMQwlw37b24K2Z3uyHMGZZ2w8 jcIjdimtxoKSDgMxqGO8eAK8snXWN1WDrWqzvdONSjxcqRkGE2a1me/nBlpJp++/ TjdpVZIPnq4GzxAIcZvz10ineNLg7hc9z7BuioQztkyCyc/qkmwUHEXt4UlVE= Received: from localhost (108-207-244-174.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net [108.207.244.174]) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a33.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 879E6594069; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 13:18:42 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2014 15:18:42 -0500 From: Nico Williams To: "Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)" Message-ID: <20140804201840.GA3579@localhost> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/KXuGetXfEvfvyvqp_NDE33sW1Yk Cc: "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] discoverability of separators in draft-ietf-json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2014 20:18:44 -0000 On Mon, Aug 04, 2014 at 07:23:40PM +0000, Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr) wrote: > What if you could use basically any separator you wanted in a text > sequence, every sequence MUST start with that separator, and we gave > suggestions for ones we think would work with some text about the > trade-offs? I really like a variant of this. See below. > Processors would read up to the first [, {, ", n, t, f, ., -, or number, It's simpler than that! The sequence parser state machine would work as follows: 0) the sequence parser has two state variables: one referencing a text that has been parsed but not yet output, and one referencing the text currently being parsed. 1) as soon as a text parse begins (with _any_ character), the previous parsed text (if any) is output and the parsed-but-not-yet-output state variable is reset. conversely, when a text parse completes the text is placed in the parsed-but-not-yet-output state variable and the current text variable is reset. however, a text consisting of a top-level number, boolean, or null, does not complete parsing until a suitable explicit separator is received, or a ", [, or { is received (no ambiguity == separator not needed). 2) if any character that is suitable for use as a text separator is received then: - if it is a JSON whitespace character then it is part of the current/next text to be parsed (triggering (1) if it is the first character after the last text) - else the current text is discarded as incomplete and (1) is triggered. This makes Riak's use of JSON text sequences (sequences of objects with no separators) valid sequences as well (which, incidentally, jq can handle today). It also very closely matches what jq's parser does. Encoders must pick a separator suitable to their needs. Loggers can either RS (or BEL, or ...) or they can s/LF/SP/ then use LF. I like this a lot because it's easy to implement and allows the use of any ASCII control character, including whitespace, as a separator. It also allows the use of no separator when one is not needed. I'd be very happy with this! It's the jq sequence encoder where I really don't want to use RS (or anything other than LF). The parser can easily deal with a variety of separators. (jq's parser can handle missing separators between arrays, strings, and objects, but not between booleans, nulls, or numbers. The encoder always emits a newline (LF) separator. Making the parser handle more separators would be trivial.) For example: $ # Usage is: jq $ # $ # The '.' filter means: copy input stream to output. $ $ # Example 1: with SP as separator only where none is needed to $ # disambiguate. $ # $ echo '1"foo"[]{}true null false'|jq . 1 "foo" [] {} true null false $ $ # Example 2: with no separator where one IS needed to disambiguate. $ # $ for i in '1true' 'true2' 'truefalse' 'nullfalse' 'null3' '4null'; do echo "$i" | jq .; done parse error: Invalid numeric literal at line 2, column 0 parse error: Invalid literal at line 2, column 0 parse error: Invalid literal at line 2, column 0 parse error: Invalid literal at line 2, column 0 parse error: Invalid literal at line 2, column 0 parse error: Invalid numeric literal at line 2, column 0 $ Nico -- From nobody Mon Aug 4 13:22:26 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B35731A0301 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 13:22:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7-2FtQQzKqsr for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 13:22:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vc0-f177.google.com (mail-vc0-f177.google.com [209.85.220.177]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A2E791A0308 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 13:22:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vc0-f177.google.com with SMTP id hy4so11880355vcb.8 for ; Mon, 04 Aug 2014 13:22:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=GqX5AdSguKlL3ryVRYUs8wMX9DmJbJ4d8rk26r/ec5w=; b=aP3HjMnIH2kpn/YZFcJJcFHGKISlSXw1gWd0DFuT37zApKSZ0UnwuN4GYAxdzJ3vFR 1hDtxngagnLJtTE+lhT4UdH2iAMcxfYv975Q6Av5F80XHEubjYdCCIoElVY0QgMqBttZ CntHljPgQfwnQmSSNRmHfSaSa8UMqBjAB9cQQkjhskir3gdxHIe7zrH2WFAAATdNALgt 5PItjUIJrYm4KdnZPxIZhwhCfrykvMrOZWcDLeZdfyzDcqqfOT2qI1Fbd0N2C1ouBsGq WqZNLxpV78Q27vSLlDNsAq2DM/P7BlKtMKbZt2IekPp+GWfGLl/GgkwWzuzOPhxAcVnK MDvA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQld8JXUJ2TQWEENjJHhQeqm3tOiCwf5FPnTxQB9OOAs2idU8DvQrn6E2ZWt35kh62telNeU X-Received: by 10.52.26.173 with SMTP id m13mr4229019vdg.69.1407183736814; Mon, 04 Aug 2014 13:22:16 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.221.49.194 with HTTP; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 13:21:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [24.84.235.32] In-Reply-To: <20140804201840.GA3579@localhost> References: <20140804201840.GA3579@localhost> From: Tim Bray Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2014 13:21:56 -0700 Message-ID: To: Nico Williams Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf3079bd08c4573504ffd37e10 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/n52jHCcm_EhayP250pwgMbsdmpY Cc: "Joe Hildebrand \(jhildebr\)" , "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] discoverability of separators in draft-ietf-json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2014 20:22:23 -0000 --20cf3079bd08c4573504ffd37e10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I fail to perceive any benefit in allowing the use of more than one unique ASCII control character as a separator. On Mon, Aug 4, 2014 at 1:18 PM, Nico Williams wrote= : > On Mon, Aug 04, 2014 at 07:23:40PM +0000, Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr) wrote= : > > What if you could use basically any separator you wanted in a text > > sequence, every sequence MUST start with that separator, and we gave > > suggestions for ones we think would work with some text about the > > trade-offs? > > I really like a variant of this. See below. > > > Processors would read up to the first [, {, ", n, t, f, ., -, or number= , > > It's simpler than that! > > The sequence parser state machine would work as follows: > > 0) the sequence parser has two state variables: one referencing a text > that has been parsed but not yet output, and one referencing the text > currently being parsed. > > 1) as soon as a text parse begins (with _any_ character), the previous > parsed text (if any) is output and the parsed-but-not-yet-output > state variable is reset. > > conversely, when a text parse completes the text is placed in the > parsed-but-not-yet-output state variable and the current text > variable is reset. > > however, a text consisting of a top-level number, boolean, or null, > does not complete parsing until a suitable explicit separator is > received, or a ", [, or { is received (no ambiguity =3D=3D separator n= ot > needed). > > 2) if any character that is suitable for use as a text separator is > received then: > > - if it is a JSON whitespace character then it is part of the > current/next text to be parsed (triggering (1) if it is the first > character after the last text) > > - else the current text is discarded as incomplete and (1) is > triggered. > > This makes Riak's use of JSON text sequences (sequences of objects with > no separators) valid sequences as well (which, incidentally, jq can > handle today). It also very closely matches what jq's parser does. > > Encoders must pick a separator suitable to their needs. Loggers can > either RS (or BEL, or ...) or they can s/LF/SP/ then use LF. > > I like this a lot because it's easy to implement and allows the use of > any ASCII control character, including whitespace, as a separator. It > also allows the use of no separator when one is not needed. > > I'd be very happy with this! It's the jq sequence encoder where I > really don't want to use RS (or anything other than LF). The parser can > easily deal with a variety of separators. > > (jq's parser can handle missing separators between arrays, strings, and > objects, but not between booleans, nulls, or numbers. The encoder > always emits a newline (LF) separator. Making the parser handle more > separators would be trivial.) > > For example: > > $ # Usage is: jq > $ # > $ # The '.' filter means: copy input stream to output. > $ > $ # Example 1: with SP as separator only where none is needed to > $ # disambiguate. > $ # > $ echo '1"foo"[]{}true null false'|jq . > 1 > "foo" > [] > {} > true > null > false > $ > $ # Example 2: with no separator where one IS needed to disambiguate. > $ # > $ for i in '1true' 'true2' 'truefalse' 'nullfalse' 'null3' '4null'; do > echo "$i" | jq .; done > parse error: Invalid numeric literal at line 2, column 0 > parse error: Invalid literal at line 2, column 0 > parse error: Invalid literal at line 2, column 0 > parse error: Invalid literal at line 2, column 0 > parse error: Invalid literal at line 2, column 0 > parse error: Invalid numeric literal at line 2, column 0 > $ > > Nico > -- > > _______________________________________________ > json mailing list > json@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json > --=20 - Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a private message, see https://keybase.io/timbray) --20cf3079bd08c4573504ffd37e10 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I f= ail to perceive any benefit in allowing the use of more than one unique ASC= II control character as a separator.
=

On Mon, Aug 4, 2014 at 1:18 PM, Nico Williams <nico@cryptonector.com> wrote:
On Mon, Aug 04, 2014 at 07:23:40PM +0000, Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr) wrote:<= br> > What if you could use basically any separator you wanted in a text
> sequence, every sequence MUST start with that separator, and we gave > suggestions for ones we think would work with some text about the
> trade-offs?

I really like a variant of this. =C2=A0See below.

> Processors would read up to the first [, {, ", n, t, f, ., -, or = number,

It's simpler than that!

The sequence parser state machine would work as follows:

0) the sequence parser has two state variables: one referencing a text
=C2=A0 =C2=A0that has been parsed but not yet output, and one referencing t= he text
=C2=A0 =C2=A0currently being parsed.

1) as soon as a text parse begins (with _any_ character), the previous
=C2=A0 =C2=A0parsed text (if any) is output and the parsed-but-not-yet-outp= ut
=C2=A0 =C2=A0state variable is reset.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0conversely, when a text parse completes the text is placed in = the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0parsed-but-not-yet-output state variable and the current text<= br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0variable is reset.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0however, a text consisting of a top-level number, boolean, or = null,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0does not complete parsing until a suitable explicit separator = is
=C2=A0 =C2=A0received, or a ", [, or { is received (no ambiguity =3D= =3D separator not
=C2=A0 =C2=A0needed).

2) if any character that is suitable for use as a text separator is
=C2=A0 =C2=A0received then:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - if it is a JSON whitespace character then it is part of the=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 current/next text to be parsed (triggering (1) if it i= s the first
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 character after the last text)

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - else the current text is discarded as incomplete and (1) is=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 triggered.

This makes Riak's use of JSON text sequences (sequences of objects with=
no separators) valid sequences as well (which, incidentally, jq can
handle today). =C2=A0It also very closely matches what jq's parser does= .

Encoders must pick a separator suitable to their needs. =C2=A0Loggers can either RS (or BEL, or ...) or they can s/LF/SP/ then use LF.

I like this a lot because it's easy to implement and allows the use of<= br> any ASCII control character, including whitespace, as a separator. =C2=A0It=
also allows the use of no separator when one is not needed.

I'd be very happy with this! =C2=A0It's the jq sequence encoder whe= re I
really don't want to use RS (or anything other than LF). =C2=A0The pars= er can
easily deal with a variety of separators.

(jq's parser can handle missing separators between arrays, strings, and=
objects, but not between booleans, nulls, or numbers. =C2=A0The encoder
always emits a newline (LF) separator. =C2=A0Making the parser handle more<= br> separators would be trivial.)

For example:

$ # Usage is: jq <filter>
$ #
$ # The '.' filter means: copy input stream to output.
$
$ # Example 1: with SP as separator only where none is needed to
$ # disambiguate.
$ #
$ echo '1"foo"[]{}true null false'|jq .
1
"foo"
[]
{}
true
null
false
$
$ # Example 2: with no separator where one IS needed to disambiguate.
$ #
$ for i in '1true' 'true2' 'truefalse' 'nullfal= se' 'null3' '4null'; do
echo "$i" | jq .; done
parse error: Invalid numeric literal at line 2, column 0
parse error: Invalid literal at line 2, column 0
parse error: Invalid literal at line 2, column 0
parse error: Invalid literal at line 2, column 0
parse error: Invalid literal at line 2, column 0
parse error: Invalid numeric literal at line 2, column 0
$

Nico
--

_______________________________________________
json mailing list
json@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json



--
- Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a priv= ate message, see h= ttps://keybase.io/timbray)
--20cf3079bd08c4573504ffd37e10-- From nobody Mon Aug 4 13:23:12 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D15F91A0307 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 13:23:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.347 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.347 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OLs_zueFB6o8 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 13:23:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hoffman.proper.com (IPv6.Hoffman.Proper.COM [IPv6:2605:8e00:100:41::81]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 63B371A02FF for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 13:23:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.20.30.90] (50-1-51-60.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com [50.1.51.60]) (authenticated bits=0) by hoffman.proper.com (8.14.9/8.14.7) with ESMTP id s74KN4YI043313 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 4 Aug 2014 13:23:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: hoffman.proper.com: Host 50-1-51-60.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com [50.1.51.60] claimed to be [10.20.30.90] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) From: Paul Hoffman In-Reply-To: <20140804194550.GZ3579@localhost> Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2014 13:23:03 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <1B3D93EC-67FD-462E-998E-152DDB5CDC77@vpnc.org> References: <20140804194550.GZ3579@localhost> To: Nico Williams X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/uzTKLz6GYlv44FTZciyjpEWld34 Cc: json@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Json] Coming to better consensus on draft-ietf-json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2014 20:23:11 -0000 On Aug 4, 2014, at 12:45 PM, Nico Williams = wrote: > On Mon, Aug 04, 2014 at 07:30:32AM -0700, Paul Hoffman wrote: >> If the protocol is focused on just system log files (not hand-typed >=20 > It isn't. Logfiles is but one use case. Logfiles are the use case that members seem to be universally interested = in. > I mentioned Riak's use of JSON > text sequences for serializing databse query results. Yes, you did. That did not help the WG come to consensus, which is what = we are trying to do here. Further, at least one person reading that post = (me) did not see how that use case was at all different than log files. >> files), and without trying to deal with partial texts and truncated >> entries, the protocol becomes much simpler and the choice of record >> separator becomes much clearer. >=20 > I don't agree. Log writers can just s/LF/SP/g then use LF as the > separator. Yes, they can. There was not consensus in the WG that this was simple = enough, given all the rest of the text in the draft. >> Given this, the chairs ask the document author to produce a new = draft: >>=20 >> - Move the first paragraph of Section 3 into the introduction. >>=20 >> - Change the description in Section 2 to be: >>=20 >> JSON-sequence =3D ws *(JSON-text ws RS ws) >> RS =3D %x1E >> ws =3D >> JSON-text =3D >=20 > I don't understand. =20 I suspect that you do. > There's no consensus as to LF vs. RS, so you're > picking one of the alternatives? On what basis? On the basis of simplifying the protocol, as described in the message. --Paul Hoffman= From nobody Mon Aug 4 13:24:47 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D408A1A0302 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 13:24:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id plBRpyBbDxpT for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 13:24:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vc0-f178.google.com (mail-vc0-f178.google.com [209.85.220.178]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 720A91A02FF for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 13:24:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vc0-f178.google.com with SMTP id la4so12287761vcb.9 for ; Mon, 04 Aug 2014 13:24:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=RgZXqE+xf9yp8Dxq9Feflnbp2KfT8eZooxw5jW3HcvE=; b=UbEAwZsuh8hrwDKlM8T1OqTjyFe0596pH1wKm2lLcG/tUtM8Gbd51XYagWwrRbdiQD +SPJ8D4yaHQHfm4TKnw7PP+Dq0PMD3AqJPduwgK9l8iVu+GXpnHdtX9JJV4NDnED79Bz tMYQZVEp6kc+jLhPOaZ7sUSuZVdJH3+2hdhd75xVHZOA1+s0cnddl0OfXQPdnMDJFth8 tRMFubTOglhF1jofxARE4sO6cXa/7RsFsupVnkYFLVy9Oo4NO2TQEojAlj/s8r79M7jC dqpqhWy8u+Y/mfSzaAMmWgH/dXimFfg+PaWbcDzvDvcokQ+wDgJbEEMyRc75JSd0pWGK YuSA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlXcqFXqJurOAuR9bRrRboWvDZGd4QpHCHXu7qClQ7Bb3v4LMKt7YIGNfsGeCYapiQmB1nU X-Received: by 10.221.9.72 with SMTP id ov8mr26302514vcb.27.1407183879538; Mon, 04 Aug 2014 13:24:39 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.221.49.194 with HTTP; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 13:24:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [24.84.235.32] In-Reply-To: <20140804174749.GE28851@mercury.ccil.org> References: <2d53157574f749e0b1399b9e39564ecd@BL2PR02MB307.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> <20140804165506.GL3579@localhost> <20140804174749.GE28851@mercury.ccil.org> From: Tim Bray Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2014 13:24:19 -0700 Message-ID: To: John Cowan Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e011777214628f904ffd387b9 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/vYZqBGUStzvpvErjKrjTIXDVIrk Cc: IETF JSON WG , Nico Williams , Stephen Dolan , Larry Masinter Subject: Re: [Json] "best practices" Vs. Profile for i-json X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2014 20:24:45 -0000 --089e011777214628f904ffd387b9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable How is this different/better than what http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-json-i-json-02#section-2.2 currently says? I don=E2=80=99t actually disagree with this formulation, but I think= that in practical terms it=E2=80=99s pretty well isomorphic to the current language= . On Mon, Aug 4, 2014 at 10:47 AM, John Cowan wrote: > Nico Williams scripsit: > > > Is a MUST really needed? Suppose you have an encoder that produces > > numbers (not irrationals) that require better-than-IEEE754 to represent > > exactly. A parser that can only handle IEEE754 should accept such > > numbers, but with loss of precision/range -- exactly what we already > > knew to expect from JSON as far as interoperability goes. > > A fair point. We can use the verbal formula employed by Unicode for > normalization, something like this: > > A sending implementation [MUST NOT/SHOULD NOT] expect a receiving > implementation to distinguish between two numeric literals whose > decimal values round to the same IEEE754 double-precision value > (using standard round-to-nearest, ties-to-even rounding). > > How's that? > > -- > John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org > A few times, I did some exuberant stomping about, like a hippo auditionin= g > for Riverdance, though I stopped when I thought I heard something at > the far side of the room falling over in rhythm with my feet. --Joseph > Zitt > > _______________________________________________ > json mailing list > json@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json > --=20 - Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a private message, see https://keybase.io/timbray) --089e011777214628f904ffd387b9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
How= is this different/better than what=C2=A0http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft= -ietf-json-i-json-02#section-2.2 currently says? =C2=A0I don=E2=80=99t = actually disagree with this formulation, but I think that in practical term= s it=E2=80=99s pretty well isomorphic to the current language.


On Mon,= Aug 4, 2014 at 10:47 AM, John Cowan <cowan@mercury.ccil.org><= /span> wrote:
Nico Williams scripsit:

> Is a MUST really needed? =C2=A0Suppose you have an encoder that produc= es
> numbers (not irrationals) that require better-than-IEEE754 to represen= t
> exactly. =C2=A0A parser that can only handle IEEE754 should accept suc= h
> numbers, but with loss of precision/range -- exactly what we already > knew to expect from JSON as far as interoperability goes.

A fair point. =C2=A0We can use the verbal formula employed by Unicode= for
normalization, something like this:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0A sending implementation [MUST NOT/SHOULD NOT] expect a receiv= ing
=C2=A0 =C2=A0implementation to distinguish between two numeric literals who= se
=C2=A0 =C2=A0decimal values round to the same IEEE754 doubl= e-precision value
=C2=A0 =C2=A0(using standard round-to-nearest, ties-to-even rounding).

How's that?

--
John Cowan =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0http://www.ccil.org/~cowan =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0cowan@ccil.org
A few times, I did some exuberant stomping about, like a hippo auditi= oning
for Riverdance, though I stopped when I thought I heard something at
the far side of the room falling over in rhythm with my feet. =C2=A0--Josep= h Zitt

_______________________________________________
json mailing list
json@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json



--
=
- Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a privat= e message, see htt= ps://keybase.io/timbray)
--089e011777214628f904ffd387b9-- From nobody Mon Aug 4 13:27:02 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 952821A0309 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 13:26:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.666 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.666 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QnIlEN8w1BGv for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 13:26:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a26.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A9701A0201 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 13:26:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a26.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a26.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0102AB806B; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 13:26:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to; s=cryptonector.com; bh=d2WfpDB9NJeBQQ a4n+o5vnA4KbY=; b=Uti7X0R3/US+YtLD1tif1hW8sNy+kRxMss8rHDPdrSscwY aXOvk3izEjb5NOJXX0bWFI0i4Jg6jQdUPEdkUwpR2FIwnhlUo0eaVe6DXNJZOs5e mnHwvWV3k4zHc6TBUFf1ZZ7N5IdXvAB+1Eavw8w1B4hBktxJj+DRfG3zgJ+QI= Received: from localhost (108-207-244-174.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net [108.207.244.174]) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a26.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id A2375B805C; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 13:26:57 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2014 15:26:57 -0500 From: Nico Williams To: Carsten Bormann Message-ID: <20140804202655.GB3579@localhost> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/V5nuRdduaVhy-_ds97H7jT4TVbU Cc: "Joe Hildebrand \(jhildebr\)" , "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] discoverability of separators in draft-ietf-json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2014 20:26:59 -0000 On Mon, Aug 04, 2014 at 10:07:38PM +0200, Carsten Bormann wrote: > On 04 Aug 2014, at 21:23, Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr) wrote: > > What if you could use basically any X you wanted in a Y, > > That is a good approach if there is an installed base of Y with many > different existing choices for X and there is a benefit to be > compatible with all/many of them. And... there is! $ # Usage is: jq $ # $ # The '.' filter means: copy input stream to output. $ $ # Example 1: with SP as separator only where none is needed to $ # disambiguate. $ # $ echo '1"foo"[]{}true null false' | jq . 1 "foo" [] {} true null false $ $ # Example 2: with no separator where one IS needed to disambiguate. $ # $ for i in '1true' 'true2' 'truefalse' 'nullfalse' 'null3' '4null'; do echo "$i" | jq .; done parse error: Invalid numeric literal at line 2, column 0 parse error: Invalid literal at line 2, column 0 parse error: Invalid literal at line 2, column 0 parse error: Invalid literal at line 2, column 0 parse error: Invalid literal at line 2, column 0 parse error: Invalid numeric literal at line 2, column 0 $ $ # Example 3: use LF as separator $ # $ printf '1\n"foo"\n[]\n{}\ntrue\nnull\nfalse' | jq . 1 "foo" [] {} true null false $ https://stedolan.github.io/jq https://github.com/stedolan/jq Riak uses JSON text sequences without any separator (the texts it outputs are objects at the top-level, so there's no need to disambiguate). > For something designed from scratch, I would always try to make a > decision. (At least when it comes to bikeshed-level decisions.) I agree. > (Sometimes the decision turns out to be the subtly wrong one after a > couple decades, as with assigning the negative sign to the flow of > electrons or with MSB-first network byte order. Letting textbooks > choose whether they want electrons to be negative in the preface > sounds about as bad as having a protocol choose byte order in the > preamble.) I agree, though those are examples where either option was just as good as the other and the decision to be made perfectly arbitrary :) Nico -- From nobody Mon Aug 4 13:33:23 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FF411A0305 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 13:33:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.666 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.666 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tKfhGXKwrV67 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 13:33:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a97.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 852CE1A0301 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 13:33:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a97.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a97.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E961286079; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 13:33:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; s= cryptonector.com; bh=dO73c8vVa1iNI7SQdfFQixg7nv0=; b=gefPquJ+pOK ODbyU6tpaOvZN2K7ryvpB0OqPXXkTEtFDBjJ6Q+VGpEa5nJDgzKQKSr3Y0+aqHUf 35rc6D6b7qUeUf9Rf08QlprmipEzHVOxtsLuvVsJqP31JwQZRWLmtdyT2oUvc+1c tRFkdv5q++YEzvxeK3OO6N44IZ/q5QEM= Received: from localhost (108-207-244-174.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net [108.207.244.174]) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a97.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id BCCA1286078; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 13:33:19 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2014 15:33:19 -0500 From: Nico Williams To: Tim Bray Message-ID: <20140804203310.GC3579@localhost> References: <2d53157574f749e0b1399b9e39564ecd@BL2PR02MB307.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> <20140804165506.GL3579@localhost> <20140804174749.GE28851@mercury.ccil.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/RneVMzHCr4Q9gUl07i7J4ZOueM8 Cc: Stephen Dolan , John Cowan , Larry Masinter , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] "best practices" Vs. Profile for i-json X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2014 20:33:21 -0000 On Mon, Aug 04, 2014 at 01:24:19PM -0700, Tim Bray wrote: > On Mon, Aug 4, 2014 at 10:47 AM, John Cowan wr= ote: > > A fair point. We can use the verbal formula employed by Unicode for > > normalization, something like this: > > > > A sending implementation [MUST NOT/SHOULD NOT] expect a receiving > > implementation to distinguish between two numeric literals whose > > decimal values round to the same IEEE754 double-precision value > > (using standard round-to-nearest, ties-to-even rounding). >=20 > How is this different/better than what > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-json-i-json-02#section-2.2 curren= tly > says? I don=E2=80=99t actually disagree with this formulation, but I t= hink that in > practical terms it=E2=80=99s pretty well isomorphic to the current lang= uage. I'm happy with the text in draft-ietf-json-i-json-02. Nico --=20 From nobody Mon Aug 4 13:50:12 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C28F71A0337 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 13:50:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.666 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.666 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jUakmRfNm30K for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 13:50:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a111.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E24701A0334 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 13:50:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a111.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a111.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6C7C2007F00A; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 13:50:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to; s=cryptonector.com; bh=Jf9i/hustDrbOk s7mofjxB18PV4=; b=PrW3gX4Sa/mj6fR2P6FRw2TtIW5PvvKbvDQ3FeOwWibTqh bBHukuJCSpOWp8FtOJRHXIRqCOglw2EZoMRchdH2qYAIIpAGwXs0eVmqDrSsXK2A PiVM2DuravD0slQgK4aLI2xqPWzmIUqP1ViXNM96AnXAP6mKbnXmmZ/rqiGWY= Received: from localhost (108-207-244-174.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net [108.207.244.174]) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a111.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 7D6AE2007F003; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 13:50:08 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2014 15:50:08 -0500 From: Nico Williams To: Paul Hoffman Message-ID: <20140804204325.GG3579@localhost> References: <20140804194550.GZ3579@localhost> <1B3D93EC-67FD-462E-998E-152DDB5CDC77@vpnc.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1B3D93EC-67FD-462E-998E-152DDB5CDC77@vpnc.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/JinZCeiDCnapRzw3REnTIM2Bj54 Cc: json@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Json] Coming to better consensus on draft-ietf-json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2014 20:50:09 -0000 On Mon, Aug 04, 2014 at 01:23:03PM -0700, Paul Hoffman wrote: > > I don't understand. > > I suspect that you do. I didn't when I said so. I wasn't being disingenuous if that's what you mean. > > There's no consensus as to LF vs. RS, so you're > > picking one of the alternatives? On what basis? > > On the basis of simplifying the protocol, as described in the message. Tim's response was a better explanation, I thought. I do understand now, at least on the basis of Tim's response, but I don't believe you've made a simplification, or one worth making. I understand now but I also disagree with your rationale. Thanks for explaining though. I'll make the changes and submit if that's what you want, but I don't agree with them. Nico -- From nobody Mon Aug 4 13:52:36 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF3071A0332 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 13:52:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.347 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.347 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VBtLyj_P40fx for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 13:52:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hoffman.proper.com (IPv6.Hoffman.Proper.COM [IPv6:2605:8e00:100:41::81]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BA0C01A0328 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 13:52:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.20.30.90] (50-1-51-60.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com [50.1.51.60]) (authenticated bits=0) by hoffman.proper.com (8.14.9/8.14.7) with ESMTP id s74KqU5Y044341 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 4 Aug 2014 13:52:32 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: hoffman.proper.com: Host 50-1-51-60.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com [50.1.51.60] claimed to be [10.20.30.90] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) From: Paul Hoffman In-Reply-To: <20140804204325.GG3579@localhost> Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2014 13:52:29 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <0FC6B804-3605-43F8-829B-F4125870757A@vpnc.org> References: <20140804194550.GZ3579@localhost> <1B3D93EC-67FD-462E-998E-152DDB5CDC77@vpnc.org> <20140804204325.GG3579@localhost> To: Nico Williams X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/8T8FejOMEEpOgY9WS7K1bAZ9Q_I Cc: json@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Json] Coming to better consensus on draft-ietf-json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2014 20:52:35 -0000 On Aug 4, 2014, at 1:50 PM, Nico Williams wrote: > I'll make the changes and submit if that's what you want, but I don't > agree with them. Thank you. --Paul Hoffman From nobody Mon Aug 4 14:21:21 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E25F1A0339 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 14:21:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.602 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.602 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4Ux-Omj8AALS for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 14:21:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B8B7C1A0058 for ; Mon, 4 Aug 2014 14:21:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1XEPgu-0008Cn-2b; Mon, 04 Aug 2014 17:21:12 -0400 Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2014 17:21:12 -0400 From: John Cowan To: Tim Bray Message-ID: <20140804212112.GM28851@mercury.ccil.org> References: <2d53157574f749e0b1399b9e39564ecd@BL2PR02MB307.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> <20140804165506.GL3579@localhost> <20140804174749.GE28851@mercury.ccil.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Sender: John Cowan Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/7E3zBo1tCqJLZ7ps7JT21PFNSn0 Cc: IETF JSON WG , Nico Williams , Stephen Dolan , Larry Masinter Subject: Re: [Json] "best practices" Vs. Profile for i-json X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2014 21:21:20 -0000 Tim Bray scripsit: > How is this different/better It's fine; convergent evolution. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org There is no real going back. Though I may come to the Shire, it will not seem the same; for I shall not be the same. I am wounded with knife, sting, and tooth, and a long burden. Where shall I find rest? --Frodo From nobody Tue Aug 5 07:17:21 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11AFA1B27F6 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 07:17:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.978 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.978 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FXTkf4KVCXvI for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 07:17:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lb0-f182.google.com (mail-lb0-f182.google.com [209.85.217.182]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 645361A0312 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 07:17:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lb0-f182.google.com with SMTP id z11so786385lbi.27 for ; Tue, 05 Aug 2014 07:17:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=xoRmLkrNQD8wC+QJTpTLppJiZoe4+kLWLwosdrSDCAE=; b=Szcpq3K5tL/VFICRszR2Z3HU04Ir2oWVFaLHv+Op6eq5BH1r/o3cmC1+wnYIskxg3O XXqFuYGgT2ozwg0mbPuRatGqNnZfqUk51l1/rtRK7wWLRuXIt4P2OJoEUY1lpW7S9C8d lKVN8AA2Agb3hu+RgKvz67uTISSrgvrUUmtVUQ2YXL15JATJS2Z22dXGZFaT93QJheAd MWVlikeLHwK+4zBjkF32fMFVRwgD18vCBcRFT9uN8iAq1sCdD4aORNfEdLxc765WtR2b 3VYVI8N06XFKr1OwGXOPllWXvX3qQA3a1aJk8tXNsTml01Y/06MC9XaioObmAeEm/7rq k5uQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlYpjNrRTYPiM5XcROYcPICwFeqN3AAcM5MBXXyqsRFhcf0WyZX9rDko+2dISOZ9PnKAwU+ MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.170.10 with SMTP id ai10mr4040132lbc.93.1407248231223; Tue, 05 Aug 2014 07:17:11 -0700 (PDT) Sender: stedolan@stedolan.net Received: by 10.114.4.132 with HTTP; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 07:17:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [131.111.184.26] In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2014 15:17:11 +0100 X-Google-Sender-Auth: J1faaJJLwqTDkwEJomXEvKvwo1I Message-ID: From: Stephen Dolan To: "Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/dpm9L3RBuqIDSAptY4ekS7jvboY Cc: "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] discoverability of separators in draft-ietf-json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2014 14:17:18 -0000 On Mon, Aug 4, 2014 at 8:23 PM, Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr) wrote: > What if you could use basically any separator you wanted in a text > sequence, every sequence MUST start with that separator, and we gave > suggestions for ones we think would work with some text about the > trade-offs? Concatenating two well-formed logfiles gives a well-formed logfile. This property is true of almost every logfile format, widely relied upon by logfile processing tools, and broken by the proposed format. Stephen From nobody Tue Aug 5 08:31:23 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC5151B29A7 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 08:31:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.956 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.956 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MISSING_HEADERS=1.021, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Pt08DPF9-5wv for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 08:31:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-la0-f53.google.com (mail-la0-f53.google.com [209.85.215.53]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AD8131B29BE for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 08:31:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-la0-f53.google.com with SMTP id gl10so852780lab.26 for ; Tue, 05 Aug 2014 08:31:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:cc:content-type; bh=WDynRH8gqecWKWKX5jbkDrTS/HLoaD3NyU75pDGEWIM=; b=VlqQkP1XAOtoa6V5Wd6Sk/xZl4CSKIJ8T1mqkYcIv+xzQeNjxCQhHDeduICmy3hfO6 wa7PJYs/viBTar0jE8kkNwK1SFgm0sneUPf1bM3f+ZiVQJOMfmbfi1WzeTmqWzadU9Uc Om74Pw8R1q2EroJ8x9/gIT4Ol8XAwATgUt+DJNbiJexJE7IFA6VBlOg5JGMWqhWeczPe q9qA8G8Y2bjrFc9zw3IQt+PXVewdriYnunrHPKxTG9QCri000MMij1IDXrSIhVivAYL9 XbfOmsSVRWf5NqGItj2A1F02pTuh/qlQkDTrdCbT+Cw2/0ryJsBjAgJiXsEBIurM0PvZ xtMg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlgrzdVYgUItS+pvyFbQFWyNdxgVtpIOo1dwLqg1rSbmcnsgCukLFgIY1qXW6/Tsmztu6tc MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.152.4.65 with SMTP id i1mt1868521lai.16.1407252673786; Tue, 05 Aug 2014 08:31:13 -0700 (PDT) Sender: mmorley@mpcm.com Received: by 10.114.23.135 with HTTP; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 08:31:13 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2014 11:31:13 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: RsEe_JVYGC8-7vfK5OENPMyMkas Message-ID: From: Matthew Morley Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e01493380bca41504ffe38bcb Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/LQqVmxXmfDElZVTwaPMBccFCuH0 Cc: "Joe Hildebrand \(jhildebr\)" , "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] discoverability of separators in draft-ietf-json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2014 15:31:21 -0000 --089e01493380bca41504ffe38bcb Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 10:17 AM, Stephen Dolan wrote: > On Mon, Aug 4, 2014 at 8:23 PM, Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr) > wrote: > > What if you could use basically any separator you wanted in a text > > sequence, every sequence MUST start with that separator, and we gave > > suggestions for ones we think would work with some text about the > > trade-offs? > > Concatenating two well-formed logfiles gives a well-formed logfile. > This property is true of almost every logfile format, widely relied > upon by logfile processing tools, and broken by the proposed format. > +1 > > Stephen > > _______________________________________________ > json mailing list > json@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json > -- Matthew P. C. Morley --089e01493380bca41504ffe38bcb Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On T= ue, Aug 5, 2014 at 10:17 AM, Stephen Dolan <stephen.dolan@cl.cam.= ac.uk> wrote:
On Mon, Aug 4, 2014 at 8:23 = PM, Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)
<jhildebr@cisco.com> wrote:=
> What if you could use basically any separator you wanted in a text
> sequence, every sequence MUST start with that separator, and we gave > suggestions for ones we think would work with some text about the
> trade-offs?

Concatenating two well-formed logfiles gives a well-formed logfile. This property is true of almost every logfile format, widely relied
upon by logfile processing tools, and broken by the proposed format.

+1=C2=A0

Stephen

_______________________________________________
json mailing list
json@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json



--
= Matthew P. C. Morley
--089e01493380bca41504ffe38bcb-- From nobody Tue Aug 5 08:38:43 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEFCA1B2A22 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 08:38:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.666 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.666 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5BgIRgj4Z4qG for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 08:38:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a113.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B3631B29FB for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 08:38:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a113.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a113.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECBAB20047B6A; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 08:38:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to; s=cryptonector.com; bh=Rhxt7uEgHTbmRZ jhnb4xh07wOqs=; b=SlTnRidxdeDiuxwXqqClk7+aRyOkXVM9thTa8innRvnzkg vOkKQlnF788oHaZDMVVvrmFkWNg3JJRu5rj5euO5EpLvWMM4BR8w/5yBt1HnUab7 dvY9UazWW+Nq6M+t+BmNj68iOUD1+ydL+cCgZxVlazYWyUWYqA0SoPnpiSq5I= Received: from localhost (108-207-244-174.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net [108.207.244.174]) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a113.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 908AD20047B76; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 08:38:35 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2014 10:38:35 -0500 From: Nico Williams To: Stephen Dolan Message-ID: <20140805153833.GJ3579@localhost> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/WpQSR1W4lxksGPf0ORIWSSfMl6A Cc: "Joe Hildebrand \(jhildebr\)" , "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] discoverability of separators in draft-ietf-json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2014 15:38:41 -0000 On Tue, Aug 05, 2014 at 03:17:11PM +0100, Stephen Dolan wrote: > On Mon, Aug 4, 2014 at 8:23 PM, Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr) > wrote: > > What if you could use basically any separator you wanted in a text > > sequence, every sequence MUST start with that separator, and we gave > > suggestions for ones we think would work with some text about the > > trade-offs? > > Concatenating two well-formed logfiles gives a well-formed logfile. > This property is true of almost every logfile format, widely relied > upon by logfile processing tools, and broken by the proposed format. +1 Thanks for capturing that point. Nico -- From nobody Tue Aug 5 09:27:51 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A1D71B2A86 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 09:27:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.502 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.502 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iSHMh4x72ufq for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 09:27:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-4.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-4.cisco.com [173.37.86.75]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2382E1A036B for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 09:27:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1106; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1407256068; x=1408465668; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-id:content-transfer-encoding: mime-version; bh=0nZ+E/21vMzmJr/jiGCIO4QMJNBHG9/8T/QB23QBqIo=; b=JiyLV/4HxWnEAX94Y8+MI67AyB+3oHpUWqILYJ0CX72U26H4UXaXqx1V Is1eVd59PsJZbXlkQqcBZD7sbPhMOFzim5TND8a3EGhh1M+/EDs1DH2zX rQ70FfDTMkpgs8NoidLOe84/DiqqlcGmimgl+t7BSq2fXIGcegY64ByZH 4=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AjYFACYF4VOtJV2T/2dsb2JhbABbDoJ/gSkEgnPQRgEZfBZ3hAQBAQQjEUUQAgEIGAICJgICAjAVEAIEDgWIQqw4lyAXgSyNbTMHgnmBUgEEnA2UYYMLQmwBgUU X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.01,805,1400025600"; d="scan'208";a="345335126" Received: from rcdn-core-11.cisco.com ([173.37.93.147]) by rcdn-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 05 Aug 2014 16:27:47 +0000 Received: from xhc-rcd-x06.cisco.com (xhc-rcd-x06.cisco.com [173.37.183.80]) by rcdn-core-11.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s75GRlYt029825 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Tue, 5 Aug 2014 16:27:47 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com ([169.254.15.102]) by xhc-rcd-x06.cisco.com ([173.37.183.80]) with mapi id 14.03.0123.003; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 11:27:47 -0500 From: "Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)" To: Stephen Dolan Thread-Topic: [Json] discoverability of separators in draft-ietf-json-text-sequence Thread-Index: AQHPsBmYmm/28gTeik2CkWeDK296H5vCY4OA//+/+gA= Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2014 16:27:46 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.4.3.140616 x-originating-ip: [10.129.24.242] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <0437D8D07862004A8E1ACD7971CD6504@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/qa6IW11SEiQRr_XGiTV_yM5pabE Cc: "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] discoverability of separators in draft-ietf-json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2014 16:27:49 -0000 T24gOC81LzE0LCA4OjE3IEFNLCAiU3RlcGhlbiBEb2xhbiIgPHN0ZXBoZW4uZG9sYW5AY2wuY2Ft LmFjLnVrPiB3cm90ZToNCg0KPk9uIE1vbiwgQXVnIDQsIDIwMTQgYXQgODoyMyBQTSwgSm9lIEhp bGRlYnJhbmQgKGpoaWxkZWJyKQ0KPjxqaGlsZGVickBjaXNjby5jb20+IHdyb3RlOg0KPj4gV2hh dCBpZiB5b3UgY291bGQgdXNlIGJhc2ljYWxseSBhbnkgc2VwYXJhdG9yIHlvdSB3YW50ZWQgaW4g YSB0ZXh0DQo+PiBzZXF1ZW5jZSwgZXZlcnkgc2VxdWVuY2UgTVVTVCBzdGFydCB3aXRoIHRoYXQg c2VwYXJhdG9yLCBhbmQgd2UgZ2F2ZQ0KPj4gc3VnZ2VzdGlvbnMgZm9yIG9uZXMgd2UgdGhpbmsg d291bGQgd29yayB3aXRoIHNvbWUgdGV4dCBhYm91dCB0aGUNCj4+IHRyYWRlLW9mZnM/DQo+DQo+ Q29uY2F0ZW5hdGluZyB0d28gd2VsbC1mb3JtZWQgbG9nZmlsZXMgZ2l2ZXMgYSB3ZWxsLWZvcm1l ZCBsb2dmaWxlLg0KPlRoaXMgcHJvcGVydHkgaXMgdHJ1ZSBvZiBhbG1vc3QgZXZlcnkgbG9nZmls ZSBmb3JtYXQsIHdpZGVseSByZWxpZWQNCj51cG9uIGJ5IGxvZ2ZpbGUgcHJvY2Vzc2luZyB0b29s cywgYW5kIGJyb2tlbiBieSB0aGUgcHJvcG9zZWQgZm9ybWF0Lg0KDQpVbmRlcnN0b29kLiAgRm9y IHRoZSBwZW9wbGUgdGhhdCBkaWRuJ3QgZm9sbG93IHRoZSBzdWJ0bGV0eSwgZWFjaCBmaWxlDQpt aWdodCB1c2UgYSBkaWZmZXJlbnQgc2VwYXJhdG9yLg0KDQpXZSBuZWVkIHRvIHBpY2sganVzdCBv bmUgaWYgdGhpcyB1c2UgY2FzZSBpcyBpbXBvcnRhbnQuDQoNCi0tIA0KSm9lIEhpbGRlYnJhbmQN Cg0KDQoNCg== From nobody Tue Aug 5 10:29:46 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D0461A05C0 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 10:29:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.502 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.502 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zniK-oESj2G9 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 10:29:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com [173.37.86.73]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 822541A053B for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 10:29:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1560; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1407259783; x=1408469383; h=message-id:date:from:mime-version:to:subject: content-transfer-encoding; bh=r9qe2QOBjeK4FRc0ehTZChMh4PYpOHZdEwWeYdhAQR8=; b=IB9RaOVRB9QBuqts2TXuhWHqEqbKQFVHwlDJNhOf59fP1+C82Rs1iN6m ih8h3gddA1v2v53Ka2W8LUI6y5hOAKy1yu1OziWDPNgLbEy+kcq69qzuR QfXpdhJJNKKi1DA4lGd8HizEd3Y7oL2Wfs5JK087xBMI5FPi7PECjrwlA o=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Aq0GAHgT4VOtJV2S/2dsb2JhbABbgw1SVwSuKQEBAQEFAQVpnEyIYxZ3hQI9FhgDAgECAUsNCAEBiD6dFKZGF4V8jiIFilk6iheGY4cjjT6DbE2BRg X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.01,806,1400025600"; d="scan'208";a="345237587" Received: from rcdn-core-10.cisco.com ([173.37.93.146]) by rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 05 Aug 2014 17:29:43 +0000 Received: from xhc-rcd-x05.cisco.com (xhc-rcd-x05.cisco.com [173.37.183.79]) by rcdn-core-10.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s75HTg09022287 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL) for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 17:29:42 GMT Received: from [10.129.24.46] (10.129.24.46) by xhc-rcd-x05.cisco.com (173.37.183.79) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.123.3; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 12:29:42 -0500 Message-ID: <53E11483.3070904@cisco.com> Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2014 11:29:39 -0600 From: Matt Miller User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: IETF JSON WG X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: [10.129.24.46] Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/L_dYDNDk1QfYmgDiGtBvYOuJiVw Subject: [Json] Conclusions for Working Group Last Call of draft-ietf-json-i-json-02 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2014 17:29:45 -0000 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 The Working Group Last Call on draft-ietf-json-i-json-02 ended a couple of weeks ago. Other than an incorrect reference (RFC 7149 versus RFC 7159), two other concerns were raised: * Whether binary data should be encoded as base64 or as base64url * Defining an RFC 6906 profile URI With regards to base64 vs. base64url: The Chairs do not see any consensus from the Working Group on which choice is better, which means the draft's current text (recommending base64url) remains. With regards to a RFC 6906 profile URI: The Chairs do not see any consensus to define such a profile. The Chairs ask the editor to produce a new draft that corrects the reference to RFC 7149 with a reference to 7159. Once published, this new draft will be submitted to the Area Director with a request to send it to the IESG for publication. Thank you, - - Matt Miller and Paul Hoffman -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.22 (Darwin) Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iQEcBAEBCgAGBQJT4RSDAAoJEDWi+S0W7cO19FsH/j3n/RdjFZijC5ts8H13J0kq 9X2jEmJJtYkUVWb9etKMZ1/KHk8AIzIYwHCsBgqkfaCyl4HHnfhqQB/INqmC/DJl Yz7boqjsbYnJBwdDUlhKUmszzzYXMoomRK5gSRpIEYfh6Hr2Sc2rhKgxPdJelVcL CHVOWOnlpJHX0M06qZgF0Yuw0j6jOWukURp3d/PZl6CSbbuENfSDZlAmkwx/BEpV s9XjqEMGba+VvkfihsSLaJ+s5xPerBXfBLka3xPM00gFKpjTSuGrtxODeWjEmZ4P En0MdhorU1jlhxljkHVdCwVV9JUf9U0o9z46S+PFCLfIyUhzBXo21s/f6lc28Pg= =S68M -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From nobody Tue Aug 5 10:37:34 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 276B51A03BF for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 10:37:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CJeDxC-P6iOV for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 10:37:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vc0-f172.google.com (mail-vc0-f172.google.com [209.85.220.172]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AE3DF1A004E for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 10:37:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vc0-f172.google.com with SMTP id im17so2127422vcb.17 for ; Tue, 05 Aug 2014 10:37:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=qfZDI9r5Kyn1U8EfFveOgIpPOaVyhC58LGr0QQ0Mdfc=; b=SmEt2lNr9j5Su05V6drIDEIqY3GDyK7JkmtMXSoaWeV+Bql08dkm+zoULFS5AZZ3U6 SZ2IhFzA5HwXNm0fX+OE29+sKXaN/gUCtexDRPHME3b/drkfEZiL88Fl/z1dyA+e9P5D SuzHU4VxyQtnpgPGux1FPrf8+T2COpgEZXAMwHeuHqZvrFCh7ZxaB7S7wItPUl6m2EHz g0tl1aZjAwN5SN9cAAdCTZIdPqs4RDeEsXKONnj5F3affkA2HY6a5+MKzHcFXasr4+ON WSXnb59r4l5sczvM2rLUqiM0+mJNWBsXcHv/9f53jtAUOn0yqabzMov2AECMEPwpYgZw gBLg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmlAhmFLQwpiOAPKS8/ocCuI9UGW0IFX39IZoluZuKRA4fk1tKWDuE2B9kQeWHWfrDW1tGl X-Received: by 10.221.42.135 with SMTP id ty7mr5553288vcb.14.1407260248782; Tue, 05 Aug 2014 10:37:28 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.221.49.194 with HTTP; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 10:37:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [24.84.235.32] In-Reply-To: <53E11483.3070904@cisco.com> References: <53E11483.3070904@cisco.com> From: Tim Bray Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2014 10:37:08 -0700 Message-ID: To: Matt Miller Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113399743c7c4204ffe54ff7 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/N0lx1ezPSQxsLP5C4OUFw7gGUFg Cc: IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] Conclusions for Working Group Last Call of draft-ietf-json-i-json-02 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2014 17:37:32 -0000 --001a113399743c7c4204ffe54ff7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I actually disagree slightly. I thought there were a few voices in favor of switching from base64url to just base64 - for maximal compatibility - and I don=E2=80=99t recall a single person actually being against that. On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 10:29 AM, Matt Miller wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA512 > > The Working Group Last Call on draft-ietf-json-i-json-02 ended a > couple of weeks ago. Other than an incorrect reference (RFC 7149 > versus RFC 7159), two other concerns were raised: > > * Whether binary data should be encoded as base64 or as base64url > * Defining an RFC 6906 profile URI > > With regards to base64 vs. base64url: The Chairs do not see any > consensus from the Working Group on which choice is better, which > means the draft's current text (recommending base64url) remains. > > With regards to a RFC 6906 profile URI: The Chairs do not see any > consensus to define such a profile. > > The Chairs ask the editor to produce a new draft that corrects the > reference to RFC 7149 with a reference to 7159. Once published, this > new draft will be submitted to the Area Director with a request to > send it to the IESG for publication. > > > Thank you, > > - - Matt Miller and Paul Hoffman > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.22 (Darwin) > Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org > Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ > > iQEcBAEBCgAGBQJT4RSDAAoJEDWi+S0W7cO19FsH/j3n/RdjFZijC5ts8H13J0kq > 9X2jEmJJtYkUVWb9etKMZ1/KHk8AIzIYwHCsBgqkfaCyl4HHnfhqQB/INqmC/DJl > Yz7boqjsbYnJBwdDUlhKUmszzzYXMoomRK5gSRpIEYfh6Hr2Sc2rhKgxPdJelVcL > CHVOWOnlpJHX0M06qZgF0Yuw0j6jOWukURp3d/PZl6CSbbuENfSDZlAmkwx/BEpV > s9XjqEMGba+VvkfihsSLaJ+s5xPerBXfBLka3xPM00gFKpjTSuGrtxODeWjEmZ4P > En0MdhorU1jlhxljkHVdCwVV9JUf9U0o9z46S+PFCLfIyUhzBXo21s/f6lc28Pg=3D > =3DS68M > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > _______________________________________________ > json mailing list > json@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json > --=20 - Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a private message, see https://keybase.io/timbray) --001a113399743c7c4204ffe54ff7 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I a= ctually disagree slightly. =C2=A0I thought there were a few voices in favor= of switching from base64url to just base64 - for maximal compatibility - a= nd I don=E2=80=99t recall a single person actually being against that.


On Tue,= Aug 5, 2014 at 10:29 AM, Matt Miller <mamille2@cisco.com> = wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

The Working Group Last Call on draft-ietf-json-i-json-02 ended a
couple of weeks ago. =C2=A0Other than an incorrect reference (RFC 7149
versus RFC 7159), two other concerns were raised:

* Whether binary data should be encoded as base64 or as base64url
* Defining an RFC 6906 profile URI

With regards to base64 vs. base64url: The Chairs do not see any
consensus from the Working Group on which choice is better, which
means the draft's current text (recommending base64url) remains.

With regards to a RFC 6906 profile URI: The Chairs do not see any
consensus to define such a profile.

The Chairs ask the editor to produce a new draft that corrects the
reference to RFC 7149 with a reference to 7159. =C2=A0Once published, this<= br> new draft will be submitted to the Area Director with a request to
send it to the IESG for publication.


Thank you,

- - Matt Miller and Paul Hoffman
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.22 (Darwin)
Comment: GPGTools - http= s://gpgtools.org
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/

iQEcBAEBCgAGBQJT4RSDAAoJEDWi+S0W7cO19FsH/j3n/RdjFZijC5ts8H13J0kq
9X2jEmJJtYkUVWb9etKMZ1/KHk8AIzIYwHCsBgqkfaCyl4HHnfhqQB/INqmC/DJl
Yz7boqjsbYnJBwdDUlhKUmszzzYXMoomRK5gSRpIEYfh6Hr2Sc2rhKgxPdJelVcL
CHVOWOnlpJHX0M06qZgF0Yuw0j6jOWukURp3d/PZl6CSbbuENfSDZlAmkwx/BEpV
s9XjqEMGba+VvkfihsSLaJ+s5xPerBXfBLka3xPM00gFKpjTSuGrtxODeWjEmZ4P
En0MdhorU1jlhxljkHVdCwVV9JUf9U0o9z46S+PFCLfIyUhzBXo21s/f6lc28Pg=3D
=3DS68M
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

_______________________________________________
json mailing list
json@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json



--
- Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a private message, s= ee https://keybase= .io/timbray)
--001a113399743c7c4204ffe54ff7-- From nobody Tue Aug 5 11:18:49 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C67741B2AC4 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 11:18:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e-u-1Z1sFeMM for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 11:18:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vc0-f182.google.com (mail-vc0-f182.google.com [209.85.220.182]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 51A251B2AC5 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 11:18:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vc0-f182.google.com with SMTP id hy4so2245913vcb.13 for ; Tue, 05 Aug 2014 11:18:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=yBtIZ/RBCO6qbqfE7VEM99eQ9LKVmS1MG+hu+jO0CuI=; b=mbs8xN5LfSeHsPLlxjpLS94FSKqN2yKIWUmLYEnt7c8h1zHFh5q/UpUdiWife1tise a1lfmgx5sglo4xWWBV/aqksvARwXhkpGhgjEnT6w/cnKXsWKKBwvQ7l10B/aCAWCBCJI Wri3tfQ7s1tL2+XeP3YmkEencOJ6y0eNc/Yy5dtBrgF1+gq6/tnDmtNeo0QHO49OaFm4 KorU0KGB09YLs6SaLQryE/jiR1dkhKzA9Wo3q8Kwegu5DLOd/eIcYCP0BsrXZ6PGVPyE BWPsuAdSTILyiKv5HRX5w6dKh2I3HqkGY5vWe+4l0gkm4R7Ri7SZ+XgLK/hESb1HJj+u t7tA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnNgXmp1lY5r7cqGUAqgx9KEnYnG+smElvXwyXyJ2wvt6OjxHH7GUuFiHwBWGMg36gMb+HL X-Received: by 10.220.172.134 with SMTP id l6mr3254237vcz.80.1407262717344; Tue, 05 Aug 2014 11:18:37 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.221.49.194 with HTTP; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 11:18:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [206.12.10.242] In-Reply-To: <53CF887E.0@xbrl.org> References: <53CF887E.0@xbrl.org> From: Tim Bray Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2014 11:18:17 -0700 Message-ID: To: "json@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c2a2b05f8c8804ffe5e226 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/I3Wplz-oPOSLJE8jAlLFTe0er-g Subject: [Json] Fwd: Mail regarding draft-ietf-json-i-json - JSON "objects" X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2014 18:18:47 -0000 --001a11c2a2b05f8c8804ffe5e226 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Oops, just realized this went to the draft-feedback alias, but not to the WG. I think Paul Warren is right and the draft is wrong, it should say =E2=80= =9CJSON value=E2=80=9D. Can at least one other person chime in with a sanity check= ? ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Paul Warren Date: Wed, Jul 23, 2014 at 3:03 AM Subject: Mail regarding draft-ietf-json-i-json - JSON "objects" To: draft-ietf-json-i-json@tools.ietf.org Hi, I've just been reviewing the I-JSON draft, and I believe that there's a typo in 4.1: "4.1. Top-level Constructs An I-JSON message can be any JSON object. However, there are software implementations, coded to the older [RFC4627] specification, which only accept JSON objects or JSON arrays at the top level of JSON texts. For maximum interoperability with such implementations, it is RECOMMENDED that protocol designers avoid the use of JSON texts which are neither objects nor arrays. " I think that this should say "An I-JSON message can be any JSON *value*..." regards, Paul --=20 Technical Director, XBRL International +44 7977 144893 / +44 1993 880687 --=20 - Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a private message, see https://keybase.io/timbray) --001a11c2a2b05f8c8804ffe5e226 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Oop= s, just realized this went to the draft-feedback alias, but not to the WG. = =C2=A0

I think Paul Warren is right and the draft is wrong, it should say =E2=80= =9CJSON value=E2=80=9D. =C2=A0Can at least one other person chime in with a= sanity check?

---------- Forwarded mes= sage ----------
From: Paul Warren <pdw@xbrl.org>
Date: Wed, Jul 23, 2014 at 3:03 AM
Subject: Mail regarding draft-ietf-js= on-i-json - JSON "objects"
To: draft-ietf-json-i-json@tools.ietf.org


Hi,

I've just been reviewing the I-JSON draft, and I believe that there'= ;s a typo in 4.1:

"4.1. =C2=A0Top-level Constructs

=C2=A0 =C2=A0An I-JSON message can be any JSON object. =C2=A0However, there= are
=C2=A0 =C2=A0software implementations, coded to the older [RFC4627] specifi= cation,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0which only accept JSON objects or JSON arrays at the top level= of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0JSON texts. =C2=A0For maximum interoperability with such imple= mentations,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0it is RECOMMENDED that protocol designers avoid the use of JSO= N texts
=C2=A0 =C2=A0which are neither objects nor arrays.
"

I think that this should say "An I-JSON message can be any JSON *value= *..."

regards,

Paul
--
Technical Director, XBRL International
+44 7977 144893=C2=A0/ +44 1993 880687



--
- Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a private message, = see https://keybas= e.io/timbray)
--001a11c2a2b05f8c8804ffe5e226-- From nobody Tue Aug 5 11:26:08 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70E781A0091 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 11:26:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.703 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.703 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.001, GB_I_LETTER=-2, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ByPR4OJCjU-8 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 11:26:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 105CA1A002A for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 11:26:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1XEjQu-0000Gy-8r; Tue, 05 Aug 2014 14:26:00 -0400 Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2014 14:26:00 -0400 From: John Cowan To: Tim Bray Message-ID: <20140805182600.GF1551@mercury.ccil.org> References: <53CF887E.0@xbrl.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Sender: John Cowan Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/8WNaR1U0mEPqKxvmh32o-ll1vkM Cc: "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] Fwd: Mail regarding draft-ietf-json-i-json - JSON "objects" X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2014 18:26:06 -0000 Tim Bray scripsit: > I think Paul Warren is right and the draft is wrong, it should say “JSON > value”. Can at least one other person chime in with a sanity check? +1 -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org "Your honour puts yourself to much trouble correcting my English and doubtless the final letter will be much better literature; but it will go from me Mukherji to him Bannerji, and he Bannerji will understand it a great deal better as I Mukherji write it than as your honour corrects it." --19th-century Indian civil servant to his British superior From nobody Tue Aug 5 11:33:26 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 451EB1B2AC6 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 11:33:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7Zr9lrE5Zfxb for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 11:33:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4CC7E1B2AC3 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 11:33:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s75IX8rq009074; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 20:33:08 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.217.106] (p548903B9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.137.3.185]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 061A96D0; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 20:33:07 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2014 20:33:06 +0200 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 428956386.164776-89088c77d566560e9835087ac58c8b26 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <63BB0FFC-5201-4325-B8D1-21C134889AEB@tzi.org> References: <53E11483.3070904@cisco.com> To: Tim Bray X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/6WwFY0MRfOXlG1A__huSe0wKM7c Cc: IETF JSON WG , Matt Miller Subject: Re: [Json] Conclusions for Working Group Last Call of draft-ietf-json-i-json-02 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2014 18:33:24 -0000 On 05 Aug 2014, at 19:37, Tim Bray wrote: > I actually disagree slightly. I thought there were a few voices in = favor > of switching from base64url to just base64 - for maximal compatibility = - > and I don=92t recall a single person actually being against that. I had hoped I was clear enough about being strongly against that = regression. Nothing new should use legacy base64. (=93base64url=94 actually stands for RFC 4648 base64url without the = equals signs for padding and without whitespace. See draft-ietf-jose-json-web-signature-31.txt, Section 2 and Appendix = C.) Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten From nobody Tue Aug 5 11:38:40 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FBF91B2AB2 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 11:38:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Cf87hvXR8Dep for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 11:38:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vc0-f180.google.com (mail-vc0-f180.google.com [209.85.220.180]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 600871A0648 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 11:38:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vc0-f180.google.com with SMTP id ij19so2261414vcb.39 for ; Tue, 05 Aug 2014 11:38:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=swYszOcsQBYzLAQMu8QWySboR4KYUyeOqtpL6rFt754=; b=hMyRy4cJy2Wjamw61Xp83wu3s8GK2b/HROiVuQxT/El62DjRBL/RpCku0e5DSFTf53 60s78cvQv6ogYXP4MIxXhFH7BjbFLs0xOVQM5fajTL3NP79ZPfh3/BQjpTogxvaDj1ju yTXtyFcw6vibo5lD81gfTQi/y922FCMnS3pN5fpz6S8HWq+oXaZsGO/dYM1hCs8Kk3lh 7ecmR/J7O93CFZljseuMTxlVWC+Ftxm7DDq59OzfAnWhuYPn154c4NxSxaXZvjyb8TWe +2kpHpwIiCoBAtVDRXNfPESmBKgfkx94c8BjFNzSPBHuvq6c5dtvxcr1hF/2IWzcjLrF ufkQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnkvemnayoaP24ldaHwiIx2X1OzDtytH4579xtDN1Lb6QPXXGovFKaGg9MHtAunuhsYuU/3 X-Received: by 10.221.41.135 with SMTP id tu7mr3551242vcb.70.1407263914543; Tue, 05 Aug 2014 11:38:34 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.221.49.194 with HTTP; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 11:38:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [206.12.10.242] In-Reply-To: <63BB0FFC-5201-4325-B8D1-21C134889AEB@tzi.org> References: <53E11483.3070904@cisco.com> <63BB0FFC-5201-4325-B8D1-21C134889AEB@tzi.org> From: Tim Bray Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2014 11:38:13 -0700 Message-ID: To: Carsten Bormann Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1133901cbb670004ffe629ba Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/z-8vww9zRxbr8bVMl6739lQHu6Q Cc: IETF JSON WG , Matt Miller Subject: Re: [Json] Conclusions for Working Group Last Call of draft-ietf-json-i-json-02 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2014 18:38:39 -0000 --001a1133901cbb670004ffe629ba Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hm, a reminder of Ladislav Lhotka=E2=80=99s original report at http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/json/current/msg03129.html Are there any cases in which I-JSON being base64url going to cause problems like this for other IETF work? If the answer is =E2=80=9Cno=E2=80=9D I=E2= =80=99ll shut up. On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 11:33 AM, Carsten Bormann wrote: > On 05 Aug 2014, at 19:37, Tim Bray wrote: > > > I actually disagree slightly. I thought there were a few voices in fav= or > > of switching from base64url to just base64 - for maximal compatibility = - > > and I don=E2=80=99t recall a single person actually being against that. > > I had hoped I was clear enough about being strongly against that > regression. > > Nothing new should use legacy base64. > > (=E2=80=9Cbase64url=E2=80=9D actually stands for RFC 4648 base64url witho= ut the equals > signs for padding and without whitespace. > See draft-ietf-jose-json-web-signature-31.txt, Section 2 and Appendix C.) > > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > > --=20 - Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a private message, see https://keybase.io/timbray) --001a1133901cbb670004ffe629ba Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hm,= a reminder of Ladislav Lhotka=E2=80=99s original report at=C2=A0http://ww= w.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/json/current/msg03129.html

Are there any cases in which I= -JSON being base64url going to cause problems like this for other IETF work= ? =C2=A0If the answer is =E2=80=9Cno=E2=80=9D I=E2=80=99ll shut up.


On Tue,= Aug 5, 2014 at 11:33 AM, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> wrote:
On 05 Aug 2014, at 19:37, Tim Bray <tbray@textuality.com> wrote:

> I actually disagree slightly. =C2=A0I thought there were a few voices = in favor
> of switching from base64url to just base64 - for maximal compatibility= -
> and I don=E2=80=99t recall a single person actually being against that= .

I had hoped I was clear enough about being strongly against that regr= ession.

Nothing new should use legacy base64.

(=E2=80=9Cbase64url=E2=80=9D actually stands for RFC 4648 base64url without= the equals signs for padding and without whitespace.
See draft-ietf-jose-json-web-signature-31.txt, Section 2 and Appendix C.)
Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten




--
- Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a private message, s= ee https://keybase= .io/timbray)
--001a1133901cbb670004ffe629ba-- From nobody Tue Aug 5 11:39:20 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D27581B2AC0 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 11:39:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cgP6QDMg7TTD for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 11:39:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 589E91B2AB2 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 11:39:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s75IdF2n019598; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 20:39:15 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.217.106] (p548903B9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.137.3.185]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E8B1B6D5; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 20:39:14 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2014 20:39:13 +0200 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 428956753.338783-3e5f68d0210887ad3ce579ff354939d6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <64F8209B-82F5-4A61-8DC7-90FBC70EFE62@tzi.org> References: <53CF887E.0@xbrl.org> To: Tim Bray X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/MOc98qlsm4XFEzKaKnt-qIl_GV0 Cc: "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] Mail regarding draft-ietf-json-i-json - JSON "objects" X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2014 18:39:20 -0000 On 05 Aug 2014, at 20:18, Tim Bray wrote: > sanity check Keeping some semblance of sanity would need us to stop talking about = =93objects=94 entirely in the context of JSON. Call the set-of-key-value-pair things =93maps=94 (tables, dictionaries, = hashes, =85). Call the data items =93data items=94 (although value is probably fine, = too). Too bad we missed this simple editorial fix for 7159. Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten From nobody Tue Aug 5 11:51:00 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FBB51A0101 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 11:51:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UruciRNfs6ui for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 11:50:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 835F41A00DB for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 11:50:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s75IomDQ014290; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 20:50:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.217.106] (p548903B9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.137.3.185]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DF97F6DC; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 20:50:47 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2014 20:50:46 +0200 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 428957446.097897-7c3b3d40dae11d0d59a6d544c51b8c10 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <7547E02F-8A1B-4E5C-A63C-917A7E7B456C@tzi.org> References: <53E11483.3070904@cisco.com> <63BB0FFC-5201-4325-B8D1-21C134889AEB@tzi.org> To: Tim Bray X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/EQrCfDWLXExQ8LI42LNQETrKQrI Cc: IETF JSON WG , Matt Miller Subject: Re: [Json] Conclusions for Working Group Last Call of draft-ietf-json-i-json-02 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2014 18:51:00 -0000 On 05 Aug 2014, at 20:38, Tim Bray wrote: > Hm, a reminder of Ladislav Lhotka=92s original report at = http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/json/current/msg03129.html Yang-JSON has another interesting issue: 3.3.1. Numeric Datatypes A value of one of the YANG numeric datatypes ("int8", "int16", "int32", "int64", "uint8", "uint16", "uint32", "uint64" and "decimal64") is mapped to a JSON number using the same lexical representation. I think there would need to be a decision whether yang-JSON is more like = I-JSON or more like yang-XML. (And I would guess yang-JSON is always going to prioritize being like = yang-XML.) I-JSON is more about capturing where the JSON puck is now, and is likely = to be for a while, not about compatibility with every legacy. Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten From nobody Tue Aug 5 12:05:04 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46F6E1B2AFC for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 12:05:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.502 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.502 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qjrP-JfFPAtC for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 12:04:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-7.cisco.com (alln-iport-7.cisco.com [173.37.142.94]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EAF5A1B2B01 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 12:04:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1856; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1407265498; x=1408475098; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-id:content-transfer-encoding: mime-version; bh=Qv/I+cXzhIb27kcJAdJFosMC4QZHXNueeeOVc3gKahQ=; b=Jk3C1NNBxW1kLSKdGob1+CVloDpKNUSm8ptBw/S08F3ffKBB0jizEzVU Ygk2utY8dcru1O+Obd0QNyJ5KvcMae6BKOxFsjDIfm+vAc8FfM75/SE9n elw6JHrwhAyrssM5KOKw9Z5WU3skrRIDYCATQgn2DAGCLz55yZxtUB2vY s=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AjYFAG0q4VOtJA2F/2dsb2JhbABbgw2BKQSCc9BHARl9FneEBAEBBCMRRRACAQgOCgICJgICAjAVEAIEAQ0FiEKsZJcUF4EsjW0zB4J5gVIBBI57jRKUYYNNbIFG X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.01,806,1400025600"; d="scan'208";a="66754343" Received: from alln-core-11.cisco.com ([173.36.13.133]) by alln-iport-7.cisco.com with ESMTP; 05 Aug 2014 19:04:57 +0000 Received: from xhc-aln-x03.cisco.com (xhc-aln-x03.cisco.com [173.36.12.77]) by alln-core-11.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s75J4vcW023107 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Tue, 5 Aug 2014 19:04:57 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com ([169.254.15.102]) by xhc-aln-x03.cisco.com ([173.36.12.77]) with mapi id 14.03.0123.003; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 14:04:56 -0500 From: "Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)" To: Carsten Bormann , Tim Bray Thread-Topic: [Json] Conclusions for Working Group Last Call of draft-ietf-json-i-json-02 Thread-Index: AQHPsNPzQkBOdXyfb0qQVEoolBLehJvCqY8A//+kYAA= Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2014 19:04:56 +0000 Message-ID: References: <53E11483.3070904@cisco.com> <63BB0FFC-5201-4325-B8D1-21C134889AEB@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: <63BB0FFC-5201-4325-B8D1-21C134889AEB@tzi.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.4.3.140616 x-originating-ip: [10.129.24.242] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <853DFC14DF79B54C806A1C4A4B19EAD2@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/QVK1IhAKBB0wLhz3MFfKBag53CA Cc: "Matt Miller \(mamille2\)" , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] Conclusions for Working Group Last Call of draft-ietf-json-i-json-02 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2014 19:05:02 -0000 T24gOC81LzE0LCAxMjozMyBQTSwgIkNhcnN0ZW4gQm9ybWFubiIgPGNhYm9AdHppLm9yZz4gd3Jv dGU6DQoNCj5PbiAwNSBBdWcgMjAxNCwgYXQgMTk6MzcsIFRpbSBCcmF5IDx0YnJheUB0ZXh0dWFs aXR5LmNvbT4gd3JvdGU6DQo+DQo+PiBJIGFjdHVhbGx5IGRpc2FncmVlIHNsaWdodGx5LiAgSSB0 aG91Z2h0IHRoZXJlIHdlcmUgYSBmZXcgdm9pY2VzIGluDQo+PmZhdm9yDQo+PiBvZiBzd2l0Y2hp bmcgZnJvbSBiYXNlNjR1cmwgdG8ganVzdCBiYXNlNjQgLSBmb3IgbWF4aW1hbCBjb21wYXRpYmls aXR5IC0NCj4+IGFuZCBJIGRvbuKAmXQgcmVjYWxsIGEgc2luZ2xlIHBlcnNvbiBhY3R1YWxseSBi ZWluZyBhZ2FpbnN0IHRoYXQuDQo+DQo+SSBoYWQgaG9wZWQgSSB3YXMgY2xlYXIgZW5vdWdoIGFi b3V0IGJlaW5nIHN0cm9uZ2x5IGFnYWluc3QgdGhhdA0KPnJlZ3Jlc3Npb24uDQo+DQo+Tm90aGlu ZyBuZXcgc2hvdWxkIHVzZSBsZWdhY3kgYmFzZTY0Lg0KPg0KPijigJxiYXNlNjR1cmzigJ0gYWN0 dWFsbHkgc3RhbmRzIGZvciBSRkMgNDY0OCBiYXNlNjR1cmwgd2l0aG91dCB0aGUgZXF1YWxzDQo+ c2lnbnMgZm9yIHBhZGRpbmcgYW5kIHdpdGhvdXQgd2hpdGVzcGFjZS4NCj5TZWUgZHJhZnQtaWV0 Zi1qb3NlLWpzb24td2ViLXNpZ25hdHVyZS0zMS50eHQsIFNlY3Rpb24gMiBhbmQgQXBwZW5kaXgg Qy4pDQoNCk5pdHBpY2tpbmcuDQoNCk15IHJlYWRpbmcgb2YgNDY0OCwgc2VjdGlvbiAzLjEgc2F5 cyB0aGF0IHdoaXRlc3BhY2UgaXMgdGhlIHNhbWUgZm9yDQplaXRoZXI6DQoNCiJJbXBsZW1lbnRh dGlvbnMgTVVTVCBOT1QgYWRkIGxpbmUgZmVlZHMgdG8gYmFzZS1lbmNvZGVkIGRhdGEgdW5sZXNz DQogICB0aGUgc3BlY2lmaWNhdGlvbiByZWZlcnJpbmcgdG8gdGhpcyBkb2N1bWVudCBleHBsaWNp dGx5IGRpcmVjdHMgYmFzZQ0KICAgZW5jb2RlcnMgdG8gYWRkIGxpbmUgZmVlZHMgYWZ0ZXIgYSBz cGVjaWZpYyBudW1iZXIgb2YgY2hhcmFjdGVycy4iDQoNCk1vc3RseSwgYmFzZTY0dXJsIGNoYW5n ZXMgdG8gKy8gdG8gLV8gYW5kIG9taXRzIHRoZSBwYWRkaW5nICJpZiB0aGUgZGF0YQ0KbGVuZ3Ro IGlzIGtub3duIGltcGxpY2l0bHkiLiAgSSB0aGluayAiaW1wbGljaXRseSIgaGVyZSBtZWFucyB3 ZSBrbm93IHRoZQ0KbGVuZ3RoIG9mIHRoZSBiYXNlNjQtZW5jb2RlZCBkYXRhLCBzbyBJIGNhbid0 IHRoaW5rIG9mIGEgY2FzZSB3aGVyZSBpdCdzDQpub3QgdHJ1ZS4NCg0KSSBiZWxpZXZlIHRoZXJl IHdlcmUgYSBjb3VwbGUgb2YgSk9TRSB1c2UgY2FzZXMgZm9yIHdoaWNoIGJhc2U2NHVybCB3YXMN CnByZWZlcmFibGUuDQoNCi0tIA0KSm9lIEhpbGRlYnJhbmQNCg0KDQoNCg== From nobody Tue Aug 5 12:23:16 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CC311B2B36 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 12:23:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.615 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.615 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FF_IHOPE_YOU_SINK=2.166, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7nNixpFsWsVS for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 12:23:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 394B01B2B3A for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 12:23:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s75JN0pq017975; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 21:23:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.217.106] (p548903B9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.137.3.185]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A132D713; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 21:22:59 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2014 21:22:57 +0200 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 428959377.764217-226c72bc1b8dd81dbd8c000c13ee5b1c Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <28B58BAC-89AD-4A7C-B7B8-93862E977603@tzi.org> References: <53E11483.3070904@cisco.com> <63BB0FFC-5201-4325-B8D1-21C134889AEB@tzi.org> To: Tim Bray X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/qGxIWPHQzig9sbPDi4Kdlh31cnw Cc: IETF JSON WG , Matt Miller Subject: Re: [Json] Conclusions for Working Group Last Call of draft-ietf-json-i-json-02 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2014 19:23:14 -0000 On 05 Aug 2014, at 20:38, Tim Bray wrote: > base64url going to cause problems like this for other IETF work jCal uses base64 (RFC 7265). 3.6.1. Binary (RFC 5545, Section 3.3.1) Description: iCalendar "BINARY" property values are represented by a property with the type identifier "binary". The value element is a JSON string, encoded with base64 encoding as specified in Section 4 of [RFC4648]. Example: ["attach", {}, "binary", "SGVsbG8gV29ybGQh=94] jCal doesn=92t seem to have a number problem with INTEGER (a 32-bit = signed). I have no idea what precision FLOAT is supposed to have (RFC 5545 only = seems to use it for geographic positions, where 53 bits should be enough = unless you need picometer accuracy): 3.3.7. Float Value Name: FLOAT Purpose: This value type is used to identify properties that contain a real-number value. Format Definition: This value type is defined by the following notation: float =3D (["+"] / "-") 1*DIGIT ["." 1*DIGIT] Description: If the property permits, multiple "float" values are specified by a COMMA-separated list of values. No additional content value encoding (i.e., BACKSLASH character encoding, see Section 3.3.11) is defined for this value type. Example: 1000000.0000001 1.333 -3.14 Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten From nobody Tue Aug 5 12:52:32 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 563891A01B0 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 12:52:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.502 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.502 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0oCy4jgDZvPs for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 12:52:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-1.cisco.com (alln-iport-1.cisco.com [173.37.142.88]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 184871A0146 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 12:52:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=2488; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1407268343; x=1408477943; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-id:content-transfer-encoding: mime-version; bh=4D871J4/5E84qgO2lp+evBqxsh6oM5B20nf2QMZCm1U=; b=FRxFXv2aduQ9gZPYPO8o+JfbIBcLOu51JOPjRNUqakWNUT1mcGlTM2IY aJmUxuQgzn3ax3vBA+qA8XDKlbGSbvNyurGIJKinaCgwrYb4pIp2uzFIO u3ql4HSyfK+Q6x8jHUgczzZiWB3hI5NR+wbHsF/yy68Rg8eXtKYWNvQ8i w=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AjoFAPo04VOtJA2M/2dsb2JhbABRCoMNUlcEgnPIdQqHSAEZfRZ3hAQBAQQBAQEgEToLEAIBBgIOCgICJgICAiULFRACBAENBYhCDZAqnDOXFBMEgSyNRCkYGweCeYFSAQScDZRhg01sgUY X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.01,807,1400025600"; d="scan'208";a="66708561" Received: from alln-core-7.cisco.com ([173.36.13.140]) by alln-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 05 Aug 2014 19:52:22 +0000 Received: from xhc-aln-x03.cisco.com (xhc-aln-x03.cisco.com [173.36.12.77]) by alln-core-7.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s75JqM9H030159 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Tue, 5 Aug 2014 19:52:22 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com ([169.254.15.102]) by xhc-aln-x03.cisco.com ([173.36.12.77]) with mapi id 14.03.0123.003; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 14:52:22 -0500 From: "Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)" To: Carsten Bormann , Tim Bray Thread-Topic: [Json] Conclusions for Working Group Last Call of draft-ietf-json-i-json-02 Thread-Index: AQHPsNPzQkBOdXyfb0qQVEoolBLehJvCqY8AgAABboCAAAx/gP//o7QA Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2014 19:52:21 +0000 Message-ID: References: <53E11483.3070904@cisco.com> <63BB0FFC-5201-4325-B8D1-21C134889AEB@tzi.org> <28B58BAC-89AD-4A7C-B7B8-93862E977603@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: <28B58BAC-89AD-4A7C-B7B8-93862E977603@tzi.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.4.3.140616 x-originating-ip: [10.129.24.242] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/jq5Rd0vp9vqNWJ554rkb3od0H0g Cc: "Matt Miller \(mamille2\)" , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] Conclusions for Working Group Last Call of draft-ietf-json-i-json-02 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2014 19:52:29 -0000 SSBkb24ndCBoYXZlIGEgc3Ryb25nIG9waW5pb24sIGFuZCB3b3VsZCBiZSBmaW5lIHdpdGggZWl0 aGVyIGFzIGxvbmcgYXMgd2UNCnBpY2sgZXhhY3RseSBvbmUuDQoNCg0KT24gOC81LzE0LCAxOjIy IFBNLCAiQ2Fyc3RlbiBCb3JtYW5uIiA8Y2Fib0B0emkub3JnPiB3cm90ZToNCg0KPk9uIDA1IEF1 ZyAyMDE0LCBhdCAyMDozOCwgVGltIEJyYXkgPHRicmF5QHRleHR1YWxpdHkuY29tPiB3cm90ZToN Cj4NCj4+IGJhc2U2NHVybCBnb2luZyB0byBjYXVzZSBwcm9ibGVtcyBsaWtlIHRoaXMgZm9yIG90 aGVyIElFVEYgd29yaw0KPg0KPmpDYWwgdXNlcyBiYXNlNjQgKFJGQyA3MjY1KS4NCj4NCj4zLjYu MS4gIEJpbmFyeSAoUkZDIDU1NDUsIFNlY3Rpb24gMy4zLjEpDQo+DQo+ICAgRGVzY3JpcHRpb246 ICBpQ2FsZW5kYXIgIkJJTkFSWSIgcHJvcGVydHkgdmFsdWVzIGFyZSByZXByZXNlbnRlZCBieSBh DQo+ICAgICAgcHJvcGVydHkgd2l0aCB0aGUgdHlwZSBpZGVudGlmaWVyICJiaW5hcnkiLiAgVGhl IHZhbHVlIGVsZW1lbnQgaXMNCj4gICAgICBhIEpTT04gc3RyaW5nLCBlbmNvZGVkIHdpdGggYmFz ZTY0IGVuY29kaW5nIGFzIHNwZWNpZmllZCBpbg0KPiAgICAgIFNlY3Rpb24gNCBvZiBbUkZDNDY0 OF0uDQo+DQo+ICAgRXhhbXBsZToNCj4NCj4gICBbImF0dGFjaCIsIHt9LCAiYmluYXJ5IiwgIlNH VnNiRzhnVjI5eWJHUWjigJ1dDQo+DQo+akNhbCBkb2VzbuKAmXQgc2VlbSB0byBoYXZlIGEgbnVt YmVyIHByb2JsZW0gd2l0aCBJTlRFR0VSIChhIDMyLWJpdCBzaWduZWQpLg0KPkkgaGF2ZSBubyBp ZGVhIHdoYXQgcHJlY2lzaW9uIEZMT0FUIGlzIHN1cHBvc2VkIHRvIGhhdmUgKFJGQyA1NTQ1IG9u bHkNCj5zZWVtcyB0byB1c2UgaXQgZm9yIGdlb2dyYXBoaWMgcG9zaXRpb25zLCB3aGVyZSA1MyBi aXRzIHNob3VsZCBiZSBlbm91Z2gNCj51bmxlc3MgeW91IG5lZWQgcGljb21ldGVyIGFjY3VyYWN5 KToNCj4NCj4zLjMuNy4gIEZsb2F0DQo+DQo+ICAgVmFsdWUgTmFtZTogIEZMT0FUDQo+DQo+ICAg UHVycG9zZTogIFRoaXMgdmFsdWUgdHlwZSBpcyB1c2VkIHRvIGlkZW50aWZ5IHByb3BlcnRpZXMg dGhhdCBjb250YWluDQo+ICAgICAgYSByZWFsLW51bWJlciB2YWx1ZS4NCj4NCj4gICBGb3JtYXQg RGVmaW5pdGlvbjogIFRoaXMgdmFsdWUgdHlwZSBpcyBkZWZpbmVkIGJ5IHRoZSBmb2xsb3dpbmcN Cj4gICAgICBub3RhdGlvbjoNCj4NCj4gICAgICAgZmxvYXQgICAgICA9IChbIisiXSAvICItIikg MSpESUdJVCBbIi4iIDEqRElHSVRdDQo+DQo+ICAgRGVzY3JpcHRpb246ICBJZiB0aGUgcHJvcGVy dHkgcGVybWl0cywgbXVsdGlwbGUgImZsb2F0IiB2YWx1ZXMgYXJlDQo+ICAgICAgc3BlY2lmaWVk IGJ5IGEgQ09NTUEtc2VwYXJhdGVkIGxpc3Qgb2YgdmFsdWVzLg0KPg0KPiAgICAgIE5vIGFkZGl0 aW9uYWwgY29udGVudCB2YWx1ZSBlbmNvZGluZyAoaS5lLiwgQkFDS1NMQVNIIGNoYXJhY3Rlcg0K PiAgICAgIGVuY29kaW5nLCBzZWUgU2VjdGlvbiAzLjMuMTEpIGlzIGRlZmluZWQgZm9yIHRoaXMg dmFsdWUgdHlwZS4NCj4NCj4gICBFeGFtcGxlOg0KPg0KPiAgICAgICAxMDAwMDAwLjAwMDAwMDEN Cj4gICAgICAgMS4zMzMNCj4gICAgICAgLTMuMTQNCj4NCj5HcsO8w59lLCBDYXJzdGVuDQo+DQo+ X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCj5qc29uIG1h aWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KPmpzb25AaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj5odHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFu L2xpc3RpbmZvL2pzb24NCj4NCg0KDQotLSANCkpvZSBIaWxkZWJyYW5kDQoNCg0KDQo= From nobody Tue Aug 5 16:31:32 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 747541A029C; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 16:31:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BzIigL5l2oUW; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 16:31:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B32D91A0272; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 16:31:27 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 5.6.2.p5 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20140805233127.16425.31346.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2014 16:31:27 -0700 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/p9C6skvUMVAbnOz6eO6VT57-JDc Cc: json@ietf.org Subject: [Json] I-D Action: draft-ietf-json-i-json-03.txt X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2014 23:31:29 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the JavaScript Object Notation Working Group of the IETF. Title : The I-JSON Message Format Author : Tim Bray Filename : draft-ietf-json-i-json-03.txt Pages : 6 Date : 2014-08-05 Abstract: I-JSON is a restricted profile of JSON designed to maximize interoperability and increase confidence that software can process it successfully with predictable results. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-json-i-json/ There's also a htmlized version available at: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-json-i-json-03 A diff from the previous version is available at: http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-json-i-json-03 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Tue Aug 5 16:33:12 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DD381A0347 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 16:33:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ICY-5BmQli7q for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 16:33:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vc0-f172.google.com (mail-vc0-f172.google.com [209.85.220.172]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 334871A0272 for ; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 16:33:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vc0-f172.google.com with SMTP id im17so2843778vcb.31 for ; Tue, 05 Aug 2014 16:33:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=Akbx+ppb6wKuo3nsY8WtQdJuwD2J7a7u9AHlSfFmBs4=; b=VpO3BVEmZNVo2Vdq+Ye6zpg97rbLS0j7BRegO0dyIU+ad5kfzhYAzfeiQLUkL7YOxR vJNSPtpFcY8xqKARdRWkmE7mnFVnxe2nBo+I4KWAfFG12+ufR3PgcWOjwU37A4ZD1llx 4+Sq9dAMUbGLKjnVBDtVhwahTE/gSZ82lAIN+5ACyXh8qHs4pp1+x47N3nbaNdkYujs9 PlTZXj7PZy2IPczBueZDiajSwB6tR2D+J3QO+BO9Q4pFUuljzMwLKvZYn3FxdqjAcVB6 egcQxA0y2RnZp3jqDRmBUyhQsLuJ3xCz7RbWY7LE7N1SUkdvEg9fi75MGxv9tTT8WwwG 6nrg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkKtJ0RgFv84u3laB4z0jHySJomG39I7up/Qvitxo4eGCOXEwWzkLxGpphI8sQ31/lZAbuU X-Received: by 10.52.61.99 with SMTP id o3mr6233894vdr.46.1407281588330; Tue, 05 Aug 2014 16:33:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.221.49.194 with HTTP; Tue, 5 Aug 2014 16:32:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [24.85.116.135] In-Reply-To: <20140805233127.16425.31346.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> References: <20140805233127.16425.31346.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Tim Bray Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2014 16:32:48 -0700 Message-ID: To: "json@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113403d02bf51504ffea479d Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/QQuWi8bSqUI3IHcprNUN_qEKfv8 Subject: Re: [Json] I-D Action: draft-ietf-json-i-json-03.txt X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2014 23:33:11 -0000 --001a113403d02bf51504ffea479d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Real HTML at https://www.tbray.org/tmp/draft-ietf-json-i-json-03.html On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 4:31 PM, wrote: > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts > directories. > This draft is a work item of the JavaScript Object Notation Working Grou= p > of the IETF. > > Title : The I-JSON Message Format > Author : Tim Bray > Filename : draft-ietf-json-i-json-03.txt > Pages : 6 > Date : 2014-08-05 > > Abstract: > I-JSON is a restricted profile of JSON designed to maximize > interoperability and increase confidence that software can process it > successfully with predictable results. > > > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-json-i-json/ > > There's also a htmlized version available at: > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-json-i-json-03 > > A diff from the previous version is available at: > http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-json-i-json-03 > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of > submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > > _______________________________________________ > json mailing list > json@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json > --=20 - Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a private message, see https://keybase.io/timbray) --001a113403d02bf51504ffea479d Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 4:31 PM, <internet-drafts@ietf.org> wrote:

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director= ies.
=C2=A0This draft is a work item of the JavaScript Object Notation Working G= roup of the IETF.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Title =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : The = I-JSON Message Format
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Author =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: Tim = Bray
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Filename =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: draft-iet= f-json-i-json-03.txt
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Pages =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : 6 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Date =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0:= 2014-08-05

Abstract:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0I-JSON is a restricted profile of JSON designed to maximize =C2=A0 =C2=A0interoperability and increase confidence that software can pro= cess it
=C2=A0 =C2=A0successfully with predictable results.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-json-i-json/
There's also a htmlized version available at:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-json-i-json-03

A diff from the previous version is available at:
http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-json-i-json-0= 3


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp= .ietf.org/internet-drafts/

_______________________________________________
json mailing list
json@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json



--
- Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a private message, s= ee https://keybase= .io/timbray)
--001a113403d02bf51504ffea479d-- From nobody Thu Aug 7 00:25:30 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E6171B27E0 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2014 00:25:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4DjAOQGmlFIf for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2014 00:25:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from na01-bn1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bn1lp0142.outbound.protection.outlook.com [207.46.163.142]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DF95A1B2855 for ; Thu, 7 Aug 2014 00:25:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from BL2PR02MB307.namprd02.prod.outlook.com (10.141.91.21) by BL2PR02MB306.namprd02.prod.outlook.com (10.141.91.19) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.995.14; Thu, 7 Aug 2014 07:25:24 +0000 Received: from BL2PR02MB307.namprd02.prod.outlook.com ([10.141.91.21]) by BL2PR02MB307.namprd02.prod.outlook.com ([10.141.91.21]) with mapi id 15.00.0995.014; Thu, 7 Aug 2014 07:25:24 +0000 From: Larry Masinter To: Matt Miller , IETF JSON WG Thread-Topic: [Json] Conclusions for Working Group Last Call of draft-ietf-json-i-json-02 Thread-Index: AQHPsNL4LeHBGblQA0m8fnKQsx2CXpvEvdKA Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2014 07:25:24 +0000 Message-ID: References: <53E11483.3070904@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <53E11483.3070904@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [2601:9:8380:992:1c92:7546:1c36:19a0] x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID: x-forefront-prvs: 029651C7A1 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(6009001)(51704005)(189002)(199002)(99286002)(105586002)(4396001)(81542001)(106356001)(20776003)(76576001)(76482001)(106116001)(86362001)(50986999)(54356999)(76176999)(85306004)(64706001)(46102001)(83072002)(85852003)(15202345003)(74662001)(74502001)(83322001)(101416001)(95666004)(74316001)(87936001)(15975445006)(80022001)(77982001)(79102001)(19580395003)(107886001)(21056001)(2656002)(33646002)(107046002)(24736002)(3826002)(108616003); DIR:OUT; SFP:; SCL:1; SRVR:BL2PR02MB306; H:BL2PR02MB307.namprd02.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; MLV:sfv; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; LANG:en; Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: adobe.com Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/cEYFAwEVZUZRmU4IPQN8kxeapsE Subject: Re: [Json] Conclusions for Working Group Last Call of draft-ietf-json-i-json-02 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2014 07:25:28 -0000 PiBUaGUgV29ya2luZyBHcm91cCBMYXN0IENhbGwgb24gZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi1qc29uLWktanNvbi0w MiBlbmRlZCBhDQo+IGNvdXBsZSBvZiB3ZWVrcyBhZ28uICBPdGhlciB0aGFuIGFuIGluY29ycmVj dCByZWZlcmVuY2UgKFJGQyA3MTQ5DQo+IHZlcnN1cyBSRkMgNzE1OSksIHR3byBvdGhlciBjb25j ZXJucyB3ZXJlIHJhaXNlZDoNCj4gDQo+ICogV2hldGhlciBiaW5hcnkgZGF0YSBzaG91bGQgYmUg ZW5jb2RlZCBhcyBiYXNlNjQgb3IgYXMgYmFzZTY0dXJsDQo+ICogRGVmaW5pbmcgYW4gUkZDIDY5 MDYgcHJvZmlsZSBVUkkNCg0KRm9yIHRoZSByZWNvcmQsIEkgZG9uJ3QgYWdyZWUgd2l0aCB0aGlz IHN1bW1hcnkuIEkgcmFpc2VkIGEgY29uY2Vybg0KaHR0cDovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsLWFy Y2hpdmUvd2ViL2pzb24vY3VycmVudC9tc2cwMzEwMi5odG1sDQpkdXJpbmcgdGhlIGxhc3QgY2Fs bC4NCg0KVGhlcmUgd2FzIGFuIGV4dGVuc2l2ZSBkaXNjdXNzaW9uIG9mIG15IGNvbmNlcm5zLCB3 aGljaCBJIGVsYWJvcmF0ZWQNCmFuZCBleHBhbmRlZCwgYW5kIEkgZGlkbid0IHNlZSBhIGxvdCBv ZiBzdXBwb3J0IGZvciBteSBwb3NpdGlvbi4NClBlcmhhcHMgdGhlIHJvdWdoIGNvbnNlbnN1cyBp cyB0aGF0IHRob3NlIGNvbmNlcm5zIGhhdmUgYmVlbg0KYWRkcmVzc2VkIChhbHRob3VnaCBJIHBl cnNvbmFsbHkgZG9uJ3QgdGhpbmsgdGhleSBoYXZlIGFkZXF1YXRlbHkuKQ0KQnV0IGRvbid0IGxl YXZlIGl0IG91dCBvZiB0aGUgbGFzdCBjYWxsIHN1bW1hcnkuDQoNCkxhcnJ5DQotLQ0KaHR0cDov L2xhcnJ5Lm1hc2ludGVyLm5ldA0KDQo= From nobody Thu Aug 14 01:05:13 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FFB21A093C for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2014 01:05:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.081 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.081 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HELO_EQ_CZ=0.445, HOST_EQ_CZ=0.904, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.668] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JRJ4ugzxjr05 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2014 01:05:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.nic.cz (mail.nic.cz [IPv6:2001:1488:800:400::400]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 576B01A0059 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2014 01:05:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.29.2.201] (unknown [77.48.225.7]) by mail.nic.cz (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DCF7A140C6D for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2014 10:05:02 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nic.cz; s=default; t=1408003503; bh=lRh1KOtlkfoAj7NHp5+LCDeGHDdxbQ2DAG43M5cv5AI=; h=From:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Subject:Message-Id: Date:To:Mime-Version; b=jaTRR5MLc0IQwbSX29N8mNwpZ/NVsFjpYB8vQh6+43BaisR62QdF7VQpbm9wM8xCu prsIGvqRRwio9iSow+OGXcayPyuNqCGsx3L63lhxyuXpn/0I/dk0C/PK3tdiOyk6vw /yQuLPxZXZLdHkDbkaffmJ91jdxBIuJ7QQhQ/2zE= From: Ladislav Lhotka Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <383D6A15-7A32-4EDC-B04F-82597E76E541@nic.cz> Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2014 10:05:00 +0200 To: JSON WG Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.98.1 at mail X-Virus-Status: Clean Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/vGNTbb0pyOgFUXeGUkxYoITl2EY Subject: [Json] I-JSON, sec. 4.4 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2014 08:05:12 -0000 Hi, referring back to the thread http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/json/current/msg03129.html I=92d like to propose the following change to sec. 4.4 in = draft-ietf-json-i-json: OLD When it is required that an I-JSON protocol element contain arbitrary binary data, it is RECOMMENDED that this data be encoded in a string value in base64url; see Section 5 of [RFC4648]. NEW When it is required that an I-JSON protocol element contain arbitrary binary data, it is RECOMMENDED that this data be encoded using a base encoding with an alphabet restricted to a subset of printable = US-ASCII characters [RFC4648], such as base64url. Lada =20 -- Ladislav Lhotka, CZ.NIC Labs PGP Key ID: E74E8C0C From nobody Thu Aug 14 01:08:49 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCA741A0938 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2014 01:08:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oRsRyevM3JRc for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2014 01:08:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vc0-f171.google.com (mail-vc0-f171.google.com [209.85.220.171]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 157571A0941 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2014 01:08:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vc0-f171.google.com with SMTP id hq11so991970vcb.2 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2014 01:08:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=L5dXcIwnqVSii0MJL645b+12xZQpmZyoKroylkDEHEs=; b=iHprOpr7DvpPitJZJxXYW59LIRlDjp18PNfJL+p0zalxQOdiyFq4sKteRATisYfq0M CjY9c1mVxz/yLx6xNUgfxFBA0dmZEAFTWQRBY6U9Hr/7mXCFvviqx44T9ykQwZeWCqV0 zx2kDI7QIvNS19bLo8thDke/hnM2LJB9keXWE0mvhmYO0Y/BJ/ew/4XY3Ri3ILKm/kNY lAHNG06N2UyDhXHuBObaWa0lBvgXy8whpW/f9BPi2AHn5Kj9ZPbnI4qeP5qyH8AMzB43 YN7BpIJFUZEwa+ffXWV6eeeT63otN+SeD5MBC7gAqWBH1WP3oBvP18/f1VnymDcsCaNE hj8A== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlZAvg2q80PqGND8tq01LZqwwpoW0JY+5ZRKh+w67MMs902ytWVpfV/3WONrz4buumDip48 X-Received: by 10.220.190.134 with SMTP id di6mr404586vcb.43.1408003722167; Thu, 14 Aug 2014 01:08:42 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.221.49.194 with HTTP; Thu, 14 Aug 2014 01:08:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [24.84.235.32] In-Reply-To: <383D6A15-7A32-4EDC-B04F-82597E76E541@nic.cz> References: <383D6A15-7A32-4EDC-B04F-82597E76E541@nic.cz> From: Tim Bray Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2014 01:08:22 -0700 Message-ID: To: Ladislav Lhotka Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c1c11cb3d94205009269c6 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/12Nv0-_LVHMsFh8Z2juN0qAGWQw Cc: JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] I-JSON, sec. 4.4 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2014 08:08:48 -0000 --001a11c1c11cb3d94205009269c6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Could you explain your thinking a bit more, especially what problems the current wording would cause? Thanks in advance. On Thu, Aug 14, 2014 at 1:05 AM, Ladislav Lhotka wrote: > Hi, > > referring back to the thread > > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/json/current/msg03129.html > > I=E2=80=99d like to propose the following change to sec. 4.4 in > draft-ietf-json-i-json: > > OLD > > When it is required that an I-JSON protocol element contain arbitrary > binary data, it is RECOMMENDED that this data be encoded in a string > value in base64url; see Section 5 of [RFC4648]. > > NEW > > When it is required that an I-JSON protocol element contain arbitrary > binary data, it is RECOMMENDED that this data be encoded using a base > encoding with an alphabet restricted to a subset of printable US-ASCII > characters [RFC4648], such as base64url. > > Lada > > -- > Ladislav Lhotka, CZ.NIC Labs > PGP Key ID: E74E8C0C > > > > > _______________________________________________ > json mailing list > json@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json > --=20 - Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a private message, see https://keybase.io/timbray) --001a11c1c11cb3d94205009269c6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Cou= ld you explain your thinking a bit more, especially what problems the curre= nt wording would cause? =C2=A0Thanks in advance.


On Thu, Aug 14, 2014 at 1:05 AM, Ladisla= v Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz> wrote:
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/json/current/msg031= 29.html

I=E2=80=99d like to propose the following change to sec. 4.4 in draft-ietf-= json-i-json:

OLD

=C2=A0 =C2=A0When it is required that an I-JSON protocol element contain ar= bitrary
=C2=A0 =C2=A0binary data, it is RECOMMENDED that this data be encoded in a = string
=C2=A0 =C2=A0value in base64url; see Section 5 of [RFC4648].

NEW

=C2=A0 =C2=A0When it is required that an I-JSON protocol element contain ar= bitrary
=C2=A0 =C2=A0binary data, it is RECOMMENDED that this data be encoded using= a base
=C2=A0 =C2=A0encoding with an alphabet restricted to a subset of printable = US-ASCII
=C2=A0 =C2=A0characters [RFC4648], such as base64url.

Lada

--
Ladislav Lhotka, CZ.NIC Labs
PGP Key ID: E74E8C0C




_______________________________________________
json mailing list
json@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json



--
- Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a private message, s= ee https://keybase= .io/timbray)
--001a11c1c11cb3d94205009269c6-- From nobody Thu Aug 14 01:09:57 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48EBA1A0956 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2014 01:09:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dy9e3bkWt6-8 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2014 01:09:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 964181A094A for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2014 01:09:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s7E89nGP023252; Thu, 14 Aug 2014 10:09:49 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.217.145] (p54890314.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.137.3.20]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D2E9A7ED; Thu, 14 Aug 2014 10:09:48 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <383D6A15-7A32-4EDC-B04F-82597E76E541@nic.cz> Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2014 10:09:47 +0200 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 429696587.262432-ab158a5aa3d751037deed0c0ed5aca81 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <383D6A15-7A32-4EDC-B04F-82597E76E541@nic.cz> To: Ladislav Lhotka X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/wYHS_HVFC5QJ7J3MuCxxOKG0qXI Cc: JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] I-JSON, sec. 4.4 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2014 08:09:55 -0000 On 14 Aug 2014, at 10:05, Ladislav Lhotka wrote: > When it is required that an I-JSON protocol element contain = arbitrary > binary data, it is RECOMMENDED that this data be encoded using a = base > encoding with an alphabet restricted to a subset of printable = US-ASCII > characters [RFC4648], such as base64url. I believe that this would be a regression. base64url SHOULD be used. The exception to this SHOULD is where a specific usage of JSON has to = take a legacy format into account. That is the case for YANG-JSON, so it is perfectly OK to use base64 = here. (Note that YANG-JSON has much more severe problems with section 2.2. I=92m not aware of any reasonable way to fix this, so I wouldn=92t even = try to make YANG-JSON into a form of I-JSON.) Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten From nobody Thu Aug 14 01:33:44 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C68111A0796 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2014 01:33:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.044 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.044 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SzT2fbmG_GaL for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2014 01:33:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a113.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAF301A097A for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2014 01:33:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a113.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a113.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99E2720047B6A for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2014 01:33:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:cc:content-type; s=cryptonector.com; bh=zhMMwZjI3htPkwia2r3Q J+M2JDg=; b=dkhnLOupYXlfpAtJPMzSWnTv6xUhEZGKjEgYqblxjQqNROpzaQiK hwlDQllR/JC0v/bAWVUkpPysiUmEM/+h3V5i3LxJIYkKNmW/rpTY33LMrVyIJmtY CEgrWGJ9qgF2whng9eACOxhzmdaoQh9WPJD0Qw4MeqB0NKgKcD2JJdI= Received: from mail-wg0-f44.google.com (mail-wg0-f44.google.com [74.125.82.44]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a113.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5077A20047B5D for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2014 01:33:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wg0-f44.google.com with SMTP id m15so751896wgh.27 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2014 01:33:37 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.92.196 with SMTP id co4mr10106640wjb.4.1408005217868; Thu, 14 Aug 2014 01:33:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.231.131 with HTTP; Thu, 14 Aug 2014 01:33:37 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <383D6A15-7A32-4EDC-B04F-82597E76E541@nic.cz> References: <383D6A15-7A32-4EDC-B04F-82597E76E541@nic.cz> Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2014 03:33:37 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: Ladislav Lhotka Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/DgLm0Imw0Xc6X746vMMQa2saPDA Cc: JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] I-JSON, sec. 4.4 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2014 08:33:41 -0000 On Thu, Aug 14, 2014 at 3:05 AM, Ladislav Lhotka wrote: > OLD > > When it is required that an I-JSON protocol element contain arbitrary > binary data, it is RECOMMENDED that this data be encoded in a string > value in base64url; see Section 5 of [RFC4648]. > > NEW > > When it is required that an I-JSON protocol element contain arbitrary > binary data, it is RECOMMENDED that this data be encoded using a base > encoding with an alphabet restricted to a subset of printable US-ASCII > characters [RFC4648], such as base64url. -1. It'd be good to get everyone using the same binary encoding. From nobody Thu Aug 14 01:39:55 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FE991A097A for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2014 01:39:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.319 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.319 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HELO_EQ_CZ=0.445, HOST_EQ_CZ=0.904, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.668] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iuS9f9JFKAMX for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2014 01:39:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.nic.cz (mail.nic.cz [IPv6:2001:1488:800:400::400]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 969071A08D1 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2014 01:39:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.29.2.201] (unknown [77.48.225.7]) by mail.nic.cz (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 491DF13F623; Thu, 14 Aug 2014 10:39:50 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nic.cz; s=default; t=1408005590; bh=p4YLdF/Vm+/cbmZoUjlpq7S+fhrpOqFkcl4O8xih0Xo=; h=Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-Id:References:To; b=b/H6tgT98jkFXT6Wc6pL5ur5KIk7W8TzO9uwxYn9wV9KvohF72Kfn7UAY6uNA/8rg saekVaSpR/hy76hRptIh1OxoTSEazuj+7XTBciace/3Q371LXJm5KiOldinCyhDZRv c192bpN/NeS17wfpedbeBEyVdGddPdpUdBb1W8E8= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) From: Ladislav Lhotka In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2014 10:39:46 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <3F259CAE-9944-4308-B14B-F88AF41109A4@nic.cz> References: <383D6A15-7A32-4EDC-B04F-82597E76E541@nic.cz> To: Tim Bray X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.98.1 at mail X-Virus-Status: Clean Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/0h7YTST_zcle4IUwtR0uPAv3FrQ Cc: JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] I-JSON, sec. 4.4 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2014 08:39:54 -0000 On 14 Aug 2014, at 10:08, Tim Bray wrote: > Could you explain your thinking a bit more, especially what problems = the current wording would cause? Thanks in advance. I like the idea of I-JSON but I don=92t know if a protocol can be = labelled as I-JSON compliant if it doesn=92t have a RECOMMENDED = property. As I understand it, the message of I-JSON to protocol implementors is: = =93Protocol XY uses I-JSON, so it is safe to assume that no JSON parser = that deserves this name will break interoperability=94. =46rom this = point of view, base64 seems to be as good as base64url. Lada >=20 >=20 > On Thu, Aug 14, 2014 at 1:05 AM, Ladislav Lhotka = wrote: > Hi, >=20 > referring back to the thread >=20 > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/json/current/msg03129.html >=20 > I=92d like to propose the following change to sec. 4.4 in = draft-ietf-json-i-json: >=20 > OLD >=20 > When it is required that an I-JSON protocol element contain = arbitrary > binary data, it is RECOMMENDED that this data be encoded in a = string > value in base64url; see Section 5 of [RFC4648]. >=20 > NEW >=20 > When it is required that an I-JSON protocol element contain = arbitrary > binary data, it is RECOMMENDED that this data be encoded using a = base > encoding with an alphabet restricted to a subset of printable = US-ASCII > characters [RFC4648], such as base64url. >=20 > Lada >=20 > -- > Ladislav Lhotka, CZ.NIC Labs > PGP Key ID: E74E8C0C >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > json mailing list > json@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > - Tim Bray (If you=92d like to send me a private message, see = https://keybase.io/timbray) -- Ladislav Lhotka, CZ.NIC Labs PGP Key ID: E74E8C0C From nobody Thu Aug 14 01:51:11 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48C511A0987 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2014 01:51:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.319 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.319 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HELO_EQ_CZ=0.445, HOST_EQ_CZ=0.904, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.668] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gCQ3xdKIiLnD for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2014 01:51:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.nic.cz (mail.nic.cz [IPv6:2001:1488:800:400::400]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7103E1A0982 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2014 01:51:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.29.2.201] (unknown [77.48.225.7]) by mail.nic.cz (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0134713F623; Thu, 14 Aug 2014 10:51:07 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nic.cz; s=default; t=1408006268; bh=IVr5bD2I2d6f1VmUMklYCHLPzeULRX8kyfwE7P7DKvM=; h=Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-Id:References:To; b=DMaYP/q7RWFJ9fLQx1DL01hbLdd9M6fRB+JPT5X9qlEFVeID8t8Oxsd4YCTQ+zNwb hGkxRrTmEaQKK2t6/ImBMQn3EKpbUdPe8w0+db5gX/IH3X+LgQla5UAYk5z68930Ao EuW6W+rN8ITcwlUtEi39LaSTbZRN0rzijyVige50= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) From: Ladislav Lhotka In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2014 10:51:04 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <4557FB2D-9C3C-4E28-975C-97EC799A6E24@nic.cz> References: <383D6A15-7A32-4EDC-B04F-82597E76E541@nic.cz> To: Carsten Bormann X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.98.1 at mail X-Virus-Status: Clean Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/GpowFkbLg5Dk8zkSQ6OC9tYNr70 Cc: JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] I-JSON, sec. 4.4 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2014 08:51:10 -0000 On 14 Aug 2014, at 10:09, Carsten Bormann wrote: > On 14 Aug 2014, at 10:05, Ladislav Lhotka wrote: >=20 >> When it is required that an I-JSON protocol element contain = arbitrary >> binary data, it is RECOMMENDED that this data be encoded using a = base >> encoding with an alphabet restricted to a subset of printable = US-ASCII >> characters [RFC4648], such as base64url. >=20 > I believe that this would be a regression. >=20 > base64url SHOULD be used. > The exception to this SHOULD is where a specific usage of JSON has to = take a legacy format into account. > That is the case for YANG-JSON, so it is perfectly OK to use base64 = here. In terms of RFC 2119, I doubt that =93legacy=94 is acceptable as a good = reason for ignoring a RECOMMENDED item. >=20 > (Note that YANG-JSON has much more severe problems with section 2.2. > I=92m not aware of any reasonable way to fix this, so I wouldn=92t = even try to make YANG-JSON into a form of I-JSON.) This is true and we will try to address these problems on our side. For = instance we reached an agreement to encode int64/uint64 values as = strings. Lada >=20 > Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten >=20 -- Ladislav Lhotka, CZ.NIC Labs PGP Key ID: E74E8C0C From nobody Thu Aug 14 01:57:21 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51A7F1A0994 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2014 01:57:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hF3Oc5hV-2nN for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2014 01:57:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 316281A099A for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2014 01:57:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s7E8v8sM027376; Thu, 14 Aug 2014 10:57:08 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.217.145] (p54890314.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.137.3.20]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DDCB2835; Thu, 14 Aug 2014 10:57:07 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <4557FB2D-9C3C-4E28-975C-97EC799A6E24@nic.cz> Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2014 10:57:06 +0200 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 429699426.155664-59f47c5674b1b8e491444611ca318be2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <784ACD50-71B5-4E5D-BDFF-C1752FF9A2C1@tzi.org> References: <383D6A15-7A32-4EDC-B04F-82597E76E541@nic.cz> <4557FB2D-9C3C-4E28-975C-97EC799A6E24@nic.cz> To: Ladislav Lhotka X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/yL0xpLexE_jLjBGhvESMORg0Sps Cc: JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] I-JSON, sec. 4.4 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2014 08:57:19 -0000 On 14 Aug 2014, at 10:51, Ladislav Lhotka wrote: >=20 > On 14 Aug 2014, at 10:09, Carsten Bormann wrote: >=20 >> On 14 Aug 2014, at 10:05, Ladislav Lhotka wrote: >>=20 >>> When it is required that an I-JSON protocol element contain = arbitrary >>> binary data, it is RECOMMENDED that this data be encoded using a = base >>> encoding with an alphabet restricted to a subset of printable = US-ASCII >>> characters [RFC4648], such as base64url. >>=20 >> I believe that this would be a regression. >>=20 >> base64url SHOULD be used. >> The exception to this SHOULD is where a specific usage of JSON has to = take a legacy format into account. >> That is the case for YANG-JSON, so it is perfectly OK to use base64 = here. >=20 > In terms of RFC 2119, I doubt that =93legacy=94 is acceptable as a = good reason for ignoring a RECOMMENDED item. Well, the text as is does not give the set of reasons to not follow the = recommendation. Maybe it SHOULD... >> (Note that YANG-JSON has much more severe problems with section 2.2. >> I=92m not aware of any reasonable way to fix this, so I wouldn=92t = even try to make YANG-JSON into a form of I-JSON.) >=20 > This is true and we will try to address these problems on our side. = For instance we reached an agreement to encode int64/uint64 values as = strings. Ouch. As I said, there is no reasonable way to handle this within = I-JSON. (Turning numbers that really represent counters into strings is not a = particularly reasonable use of JSON.) Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten From nobody Thu Aug 14 01:58:30 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3760D1A09A8 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2014 01:58:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.319 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.319 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HELO_EQ_CZ=0.445, HOST_EQ_CZ=0.904, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.668] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ukf40YKnoDUr for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2014 01:58:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.nic.cz (mail.nic.cz [IPv6:2001:1488:800:400::400]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 166601A0994 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2014 01:58:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.29.2.201] (unknown [77.48.225.7]) by mail.nic.cz (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 98BD013F623; Thu, 14 Aug 2014 10:58:15 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nic.cz; s=default; t=1408006695; bh=gCVJdrxQDDPpfCNMbqLs3e9pGwphFc0X6exGiIeG5VA=; h=Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-Id:References:To; b=MiGvy9o0DdgKueqyBPnabZ0VMbRokaPcjKlANurfFNtFHSCMAxe1txGVux4kBm+eS qhwvIt64JRLpb4/T0cYF1xZbclphMMV+FjUeJoLuEjH1NdNYQwU3eYtf9V+D9OnIBm wogKISf4UyZR5iOpQfLrda5hp4XXgnTWoJlYS2mc= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) From: Ladislav Lhotka In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2014 10:58:11 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <21B22E89-2D71-413B-96FC-45760FEAB0D9@nic.cz> References: <383D6A15-7A32-4EDC-B04F-82597E76E541@nic.cz> To: Nico Williams X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.98.1 at mail X-Virus-Status: Clean Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/LbdUkmWn-WP9FCT_5LLOo3A4-xs Cc: JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] I-JSON, sec. 4.4 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2014 08:58:29 -0000 On 14 Aug 2014, at 10:33, Nico Williams wrote: > On Thu, Aug 14, 2014 at 3:05 AM, Ladislav Lhotka = wrote: >> OLD >>=20 >> When it is required that an I-JSON protocol element contain = arbitrary >> binary data, it is RECOMMENDED that this data be encoded in a = string >> value in base64url; see Section 5 of [RFC4648]. >>=20 >> NEW >>=20 >> When it is required that an I-JSON protocol element contain = arbitrary >> binary data, it is RECOMMENDED that this data be encoded using a = base >> encoding with an alphabet restricted to a subset of printable = US-ASCII >> characters [RFC4648], such as base64url. >=20 > -1. >=20 > It'd be good to get everyone using the same binary encoding. I guess this has to do with the issue raised in another thread, namely = the dilemma between I-JSON as a profile and I-JSON as best practices. Lada -- Ladislav Lhotka, CZ.NIC Labs PGP Key ID: E74E8C0C From nobody Thu Aug 14 02:07:10 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 338F61A09B0 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2014 02:07:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.319 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.319 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HELO_EQ_CZ=0.445, HOST_EQ_CZ=0.904, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.668] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BXPHg03CeRk0 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2014 02:07:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.nic.cz (mail.nic.cz [IPv6:2001:1488:800:400::400]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 90C991A09A6 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2014 02:07:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.29.2.201] (unknown [77.48.225.7]) by mail.nic.cz (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 22AAB140A34; Thu, 14 Aug 2014 11:07:02 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nic.cz; s=default; t=1408007222; bh=783fVvfVrVp1AYq2Pxsw+yuKQDrKLUgVMDcg9n4KyCg=; h=Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-Id:References:To; b=P7Vt5Xehxh+hGyZeSD1L1X0BzQBe2xlqG5vUNlN/a4gg8oJt7CYqotqWYN60NZLcU moqiEmyFrn7yAGD9Lry9VbEhdKwiR8RZaoxcUSCKiibzcY0uhfd14epfTBUSVeKN5w eJtBnbE/DgoAxC5HwpU1t+vvwdyxGtrYbZKPbcD0= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) From: Ladislav Lhotka In-Reply-To: <784ACD50-71B5-4E5D-BDFF-C1752FF9A2C1@tzi.org> Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2014 11:06:58 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <2D88759E-8EB4-42D0-8B29-A7F73EB6DAB7@nic.cz> References: <383D6A15-7A32-4EDC-B04F-82597E76E541@nic.cz> <4557FB2D-9C3C-4E28-975C-97EC799A6E24@nic.cz> <784ACD50-71B5-4E5D-BDFF-C1752FF9A2C1@tzi.org> To: Carsten Bormann X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.98.1 at mail X-Virus-Status: Clean Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/D5gdIk_2HcB1WAodAOFTMW8ILwc Cc: JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] I-JSON, sec. 4.4 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2014 09:07:09 -0000 On 14 Aug 2014, at 10:57, Carsten Bormann wrote: > On 14 Aug 2014, at 10:51, Ladislav Lhotka wrote: >=20 >>=20 >> On 14 Aug 2014, at 10:09, Carsten Bormann wrote: >>=20 >>> On 14 Aug 2014, at 10:05, Ladislav Lhotka wrote: >>>=20 >>>> When it is required that an I-JSON protocol element contain = arbitrary >>>> binary data, it is RECOMMENDED that this data be encoded using a = base >>>> encoding with an alphabet restricted to a subset of printable = US-ASCII >>>> characters [RFC4648], such as base64url. >>>=20 >>> I believe that this would be a regression. >>>=20 >>> base64url SHOULD be used. >>> The exception to this SHOULD is where a specific usage of JSON has = to take a legacy format into account. >>> That is the case for YANG-JSON, so it is perfectly OK to use base64 = here. >>=20 >> In terms of RFC 2119, I doubt that =93legacy=94 is acceptable as a = good reason for ignoring a RECOMMENDED item. >=20 > Well, the text as is does not give the set of reasons to not follow = the recommendation. > Maybe it SHOULD... >=20 >>> (Note that YANG-JSON has much more severe problems with section 2.2. >>> I=92m not aware of any reasonable way to fix this, so I wouldn=92t = even try to make YANG-JSON into a form of I-JSON.) >>=20 >=20 >> This is true and we will try to address these problems on our side. = For instance we reached an agreement to encode int64/uint64 values as = strings. >=20 > Ouch. As I said, there is no reasonable way to handle this within = I-JSON. > (Turning numbers that really represent counters into strings is not a = particularly reasonable use of JSON.) >=20 This is not a big problem because both the sender and receiver know the = actual integer type (and possibly also the counter semantics) from the = data model. I believe this is exactly what I-JSON draft says in the last = paragraph of sec. 2.2. Lada > Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten -- Ladislav Lhotka, CZ.NIC Labs PGP Key ID: E74E8C0C From nobody Thu Aug 14 04:46:31 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FDFF1A0AAD for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2014 04:46:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.551 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.551 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KpBMejs__Fvo for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2014 04:46:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from informatik.uni-bremen.de (mailhost.informatik.uni-bremen.de [IPv6:2001:638:708:30c9::12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 18C281A0A8A for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2014 04:46:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at informatik.uni-bremen.de Received: from smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.224.120]) by informatik.uni-bremen.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s7EBkRYE001690; Thu, 14 Aug 2014 13:46:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.217.145] (p54890314.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.137.3.20]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp-fb3.informatik.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A5E22969; Thu, 14 Aug 2014 13:46:26 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: <2D88759E-8EB4-42D0-8B29-A7F73EB6DAB7@nic.cz> Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2014 13:46:25 +0200 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 429709585.127892-0896e95154523b332818fc5b2a2cbb4c Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <874667D5-2154-4882-95EA-2E2A41B43488@tzi.org> References: <383D6A15-7A32-4EDC-B04F-82597E76E541@nic.cz> <4557FB2D-9C3C-4E28-975C-97EC799A6E24@nic.cz> <784ACD50-71B5-4E5D-BDFF-C1752FF9A2C1@tzi.org> <2D88759E-8EB4-42D0-8B29-A7F73EB6DAB7@nic.cz> To: Ladislav Lhotka X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/yyNNphRpaql5r5lJX_viBttgQoc Cc: JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] I-JSON, sec. 4.4 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2014 11:46:31 -0000 On 14 Aug 2014, at 11:06, Ladislav Lhotka wrote: > This is not a big problem Yes, I wasn=92t saying that this doesn=92t work. RFC 1925 item 3 sentence 1 applies*). On the base64 point, one way of saying this without using the loaded = term =93legacy=94 is that the data item already is a string (which just = happens to be base64 encoded) in YANG-XML, so this is just about = carrying around that same string in JSON. Clearly, based on its knowledge of the data model, it would be possible = for a YANG-JSON implementation to convert this string to base64url, but = there is limited point in doing so, because the other side will again be = a YANG-JSON implementation anyway. Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten *) General rant: JSON was not meant to be limited to the capabilities of = JavaScript. I don=92t know how those are relevant to the domain of = network management and configuration. But I=92ll not argue this point. From nobody Thu Aug 14 05:29:17 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 341FF1A0AD2 for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2014 05:29:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.319 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.319 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HELO_EQ_CZ=0.445, HOST_EQ_CZ=0.904, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.668] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pcI-IJ7CsSTY for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2014 05:29:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.nic.cz (mail.nic.cz [IPv6:2001:1488:800:400::400]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5138E1A0A8B for ; Thu, 14 Aug 2014 05:29:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.29.2.201] (unknown [77.48.225.7]) by mail.nic.cz (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id CF9F813F623; Thu, 14 Aug 2014 14:29:09 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=nic.cz; s=default; t=1408019350; bh=hQlkoLR6uz2s1dkiAy+M4tFw5sUQY5nbMF+ZZJQlRlI=; h=Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-Id:References:To; b=ntxR85PUtNqDsCrhkYXHxy4n+LFHv4vK1YW16YiDwsGVwXI7tmXui2BqpjwS3uKFK ZIN2iLd5TEcVvOzHf3s3fl11XPmSFJTPdcRKfh9h8qUct5mHECJxnMRy3hLSNf2UM4 lk7C/n6VtTTBf1J5w2UbAJlyW+vV28LLliiba54U= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) From: Ladislav Lhotka In-Reply-To: <874667D5-2154-4882-95EA-2E2A41B43488@tzi.org> Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2014 14:29:08 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <342C5721-0947-44C2-99FE-F97254868F65@nic.cz> References: <383D6A15-7A32-4EDC-B04F-82597E76E541@nic.cz> <4557FB2D-9C3C-4E28-975C-97EC799A6E24@nic.cz> <784ACD50-71B5-4E5D-BDFF-C1752FF9A2C1@tzi.org> <2D88759E-8EB4-42D0-8B29-A7F73EB6DAB7@nic.cz> <874667D5-2154-4882-95EA-2E2A41B43488@tzi.org> To: Carsten Bormann X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.98.1 at mail X-Virus-Status: Clean Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/wsSGoHstgR8i-Td3XHvWVBpEYrk Cc: JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] I-JSON, sec. 4.4 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2014 12:29:14 -0000 On 14 Aug 2014, at 13:46, Carsten Bormann wrote: > On 14 Aug 2014, at 11:06, Ladislav Lhotka wrote: >=20 >> This is not a big problem >=20 > Yes, I wasn=92t saying that this doesn=92t work. > RFC 1925 item 3 sentence 1 applies*). ;-) >=20 > On the base64 point, one way of saying this without using the loaded = term =93legacy=94 is that the data item already is a string (which just = happens to be base64 encoded) in YANG-XML, so this is just about = carrying around that same string in JSON. > Clearly, based on its knowledge of the data model, it would be = possible for a YANG-JSON implementation to convert this string to = base64url, but there is limited point in doing so, because the other = side will again be a YANG-JSON implementation anyway. Yes, this is possible but it is an extra complication with no apparent = benefit. >=20 > Gr=FC=DFe, Carsten >=20 > *) General rant: JSON was not meant to be limited to the capabilities = of JavaScript. I don=92t know how those are relevant to the domain of = network management and configuration. But I=92ll not argue this point. >=20 I don=92t see any specific difficulties. We do need namespaces but = luckily the YANG module name fits the role of the namespace identifier = quite nicely. Lada -- Ladislav Lhotka, CZ.NIC Labs PGP Key ID: E74E8C0C From nobody Tue Aug 19 23:30:55 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B278C1A87CC; Tue, 19 Aug 2014 23:30:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[none] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ml8Pcoi-OAtQ; Tue, 19 Aug 2014 23:30:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0FA81A87E8; Tue, 19 Aug 2014 23:30:51 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 5.6.2.p5 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20140820063051.1912.53594.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2014 23:30:51 -0700 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/s-t0dTI5M2as9POHMUp1u4RayIs Cc: json@ietf.org Subject: [Json] I-D Action: draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-05.txt X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 06:30:53 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the JavaScript Object Notation Working Group of the IETF. Title : JavaScript Object Notation (JSON) Text Sequences Author : Nicolas Williams Filename : draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-05.txt Pages : 9 Date : 2014-08-19 Abstract: This document describes the JSON text sequence format and associated media type. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-json-text-sequence/ There's also a htmlized version available at: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-05 A diff from the previous version is available at: http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-05 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Tue Aug 19 23:32:37 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9F861A87B3 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2014 23:32:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.234 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.234 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mDJKtO1Z0HoW for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2014 23:32:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a86.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 201771A87CC for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2014 23:32:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a86.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a86.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E01FD36006D for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2014 23:32:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:subject:message-id:mime-version:content-type; s= cryptonector.com; bh=cFd/Uc4vEnngOi0PaIaOL6MyA9Q=; b=tUrDLnq58tR 3b5YuD/iIdzZCZ719Myw1L2QmS057eieQJyYVezQZs7ZfFtbM0XtlTIN7mYImHJK VO2UA2QQ6jc3jXV+DOdx/0ukqzRfapGUkp1DY0NEHiVAcK/2OIFm01+w+0RegHpm IZ5iyhMNOertaQ1ddeFDEpIxpzGUFixs= Received: from localhost (108-207-244-174.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net [108.207.244.174]) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a86.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id AF06136006B for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2014 23:32:30 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 01:32:30 -0500 From: Nico Williams To: json@ietf.org Message-ID: <20140820063228.GD3104@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/m0Ab1Tm2mpD2lhmc7Rml9-lu6DQ Subject: [Json] json-text-sequence-05 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 06:32:35 -0000 ----- Forwarded message from internet-drafts@ietf.org ----- Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2014 23:30:51 -0700 From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Nico Williams , Nicolas Williams Subject: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-05.txt A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-05.txt has been successfully submitted by Nicolas Williams and posted to the IETF repository. Name: draft-ietf-json-text-sequence Revision: 05 Title: JavaScript Object Notation (JSON) Text Sequences Document date: 2014-08-20 Group: json Pages: 9 URL: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-05.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-json-text-sequence/ Htmlized: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-05 Diff: http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-05 Abstract: This document describes the JSON text sequence format and associated media type. Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. The IETF Secretariat ----- End forwarded message ----- From nobody Tue Aug 19 23:38:57 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E2051A87B3 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2014 23:38:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.856 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.856 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RHIE9oLrd3oq for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2014 23:38:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a89.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B2DB1A882A for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2014 23:38:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a89.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a89.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55E0D31805D for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2014 23:38:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:content-type; s=cryptonector.com; bh=6IOjXnC982CRoxwSDN9cJa1 tBwk=; b=obKRt1AS721lwGSKVpXFz0tbuHcDTI016hQLU2h2awZnY0lcl94HkMf ci2pnh5e/WUxmNSe5/DKzFo7JQ22/AB51rB8SOGdR/wMsnOAjKjiln5WUHqNtM/F kMzO7k2JYXz8agxXGkqZ2Fm6hwan2Fxh/WKbVWzDrV55EG8vtK6U= Received: from mail-wi0-f170.google.com (mail-wi0-f170.google.com [209.85.212.170]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a89.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 078EC318057 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2014 23:38:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wi0-f170.google.com with SMTP id f8so6150463wiw.5 for ; Tue, 19 Aug 2014 23:38:52 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.58.244 with SMTP id u20mr45576897wjq.36.1408516732451; Tue, 19 Aug 2014 23:38:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.231.131 with HTTP; Tue, 19 Aug 2014 23:38:52 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20140820063228.GD3104@localhost> References: <20140820063228.GD3104@localhost> Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 01:38:52 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: "json@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/ztdZxEGJ-e-mjfRNAKiGMOxtg3M Subject: Re: [Json] json-text-sequence-05 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 06:38:55 -0000 The RS version is remarkably simpler. I still prefer the LF version for the reasons I've given before, but I can't deny that the RS version is appealing. Nico -- From nobody Wed Aug 20 04:44:00 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D13F1A0240 for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2014 04:43:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 3.117 X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.117 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HELO_EQ_PL=1.135, HOST_EQ_PL=1.95, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.668, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gq72wLGmJHTN for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2014 04:43:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx4.wp.pl (mx4.wp.pl [212.77.101.12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4143C1A0201 for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2014 04:43:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (wp-smtpd smtp.wp.pl 26720 invoked from network); 20 Aug 2014 13:43:52 +0200 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=wp.pl; s=1024a; t=1408535032; bh=YqGGGDYNZY86ikV2znZF1ZNO0iI/lSo8qx/r97hsLhM=; h=From:To:Subject; b=Yxhszik/JTLdGNWGm89/s/sUdQu8sgl5inrie3frcGwFRccl3izNMY0Y6xrXb+cbh QIhNW22h2KTnZVtWuM//OjsbyYhjpVD1pEsfH+7cX3cQxa3tkMAeM/2l75sg+wM1SI OeSJ2o9C0Y4nImaXQwGuNn0SJ0exmkfmMAZKj0+c= Received: from ip-89-161-31-22.tel.tkb.net.pl (HELO [192.168.0.5]) (ddooss@[89.161.31.22]) (envelope-sender ) by smtp.wp.pl (WP-SMTPD) with SMTP for ; 20 Aug 2014 13:43:52 +0200 Message-ID: <53F489F7.9050507@wp.pl> Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 13:43:51 +0200 From: Dominik Tomaszuk User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: json@ietf.org References: <20140820063228.GD3104@localhost> In-Reply-To: <20140820063228.GD3104@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-WP-AV: skaner antywirusowy poczty Wirtualnej Polski S. A. X-WP-SPAM: NO 0000000 [kUMU] Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/mh3I2vv3J7-egoScWE4jnzySHLA Subject: Re: [Json] json-text-sequence-05 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 11:43:57 -0000 RS is not defined in RFC5234. Best, Dominik From nobody Wed Aug 20 07:48:30 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02FE41A040D for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2014 07:48:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.723 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.723 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oJWwhrMm6oak for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2014 07:48:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vc0-f171.google.com (mail-vc0-f171.google.com [209.85.220.171]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 366CD1A03F0 for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2014 07:48:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vc0-f171.google.com with SMTP id hq11so9302195vcb.30 for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2014 07:48:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=SjLymANk3sDSwdmC+oWiYmmF4hCtRJNzMV7A2OLGf+U=; b=f6vupMI+7jzVsj6p4AL2LBnEWmQ+XtIiiiu5g7NEPOyAjkNli3TwaiimFoDcwfuox9 jQDeBKlUfMrSFv8lJ2G7LtWZ5RwcdhZCkNFsJ3UfuTqGcszimBiI8ln2XQh89NiFb01x 4F+1gdb67mlilbQeLk2l7Z49xUsGxF7M3Zur4Wu7SAJG5Ovil64RAV6bi4EaNO3MGfFO FlE0ak6jApwmuIzHQsxWe9sb0+5B/aR8W7uioXagJZzcEDQz2v8a9m4PFgx65Imrzwcr 9IjwrTDDTWSUav5ohXri8kCZQ194XTMt7si/iF8fC33gDNL5oudbHfbeC5gCjLzhSoE0 1jbg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnATzVeEKlbDO2qMqif6LyL/AOdOxxrbNLseHMiEMrcmH+6HNCFW3GQH4a0v00tgWKV2oCg X-Received: by 10.220.88.7 with SMTP id y7mr1137211vcl.69.1408546104081; Wed, 20 Aug 2014 07:48:24 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.221.49.194 with HTTP; Wed, 20 Aug 2014 07:48:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [24.84.235.32] In-Reply-To: <53F489F7.9050507@wp.pl> References: <20140820063228.GD3104@localhost> <53F489F7.9050507@wp.pl> From: Tim Bray Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 07:48:03 -0700 Message-ID: To: Dominik Tomaszuk Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b3a7eec2f1508050110b259 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/lJIhaSjP-qN6fmmd6z0J27Xz22w Cc: "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] json-text-sequence-05 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 14:48:28 -0000 --047d7b3a7eec2f1508050110b259 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Comments on this draft: Section 1.1. Don=E2=80=99t think this section is necessary any more Section 2. Remove =E2=80=9C, which may be delimited by an external end-of-s= tream marker)=E2=80=9D which adds no value. I have no idea what an =E2=80=9Cend-o= f-stream marker=E2=80=9D means. Section 2.2 Not sure about this section; this document exists to describe the RS-delimited version of multiple-JSON-texts; the fact that there are a number of ways to do this is interesting, but that=E2=80=99s not what this = exists to describe. I get it, Postel=E2=80=99s law and all that, but it feels lik= e a distraction for the implementor. Wow, is this ever simple. I like it and I think most implementors would too. On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 4:43 AM, Dominik Tomaszuk wrote: > RS is not defined in RFC5234. > > Best, > Dominik > > > _______________________________________________ > json mailing list > json@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json > --=20 - Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a private message, see https://keybase.io/timbray) --047d7b3a7eec2f1508050110b259 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Com= ments on this draft:

Sect= ion 1.1. Don=E2=80=99t think this section is necessary any more
Section 2. Remove = =E2=80=9C, which may be delimited by an external end-of-stream marker)=E2= =80=9D which adds no value. I have no idea what an =E2=80=9Cend-of-stream m= arker=E2=80=9D means.
Section 2.2 Not sure about this section; this document exists to describe t= he RS-delimited version of multiple-JSON-texts; the fact that there are a n= umber of ways to do this is interesting, but that=E2=80=99s not what this e= xists to describe. =C2=A0I get it, Postel=E2=80=99s law and all that, but i= t feels like a distraction for the implementor.

Wow, is this ever simple. =C2= =A0I like it and I think most implementors would too.


On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 4:43 AM, Dominik= Tomaszuk <ddooss@wp.pl> wrote:
RS is not defined in RFC5234.

Best,
Dominik


_______________________________________________
json mailing list
json@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json



--
=
- Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a privat= e message, see htt= ps://keybase.io/timbray)
--047d7b3a7eec2f1508050110b259-- From nobody Wed Aug 20 08:15:19 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50C791A0327 for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2014 08:15:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.647 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.647 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id i9tWmRswAp0V for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2014 08:15:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from proper.com (Hoffman.Proper.COM [207.182.41.81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9833D1A02E6 for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2014 08:15:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.20.30.90] (50-0-66-181.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net [50.0.66.181]) (authenticated bits=0) by proper.com (8.14.9/8.14.7) with ESMTP id s7KFFDf8007409 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2014 08:15:14 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: proper.com: Host 50-0-66-181.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net [50.0.66.181] claimed to be [10.20.30.90] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) From: Paul Hoffman In-Reply-To: <53F489F7.9050507@wp.pl> Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 08:15:12 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <47700059-F3E4-482F-846B-3EA216E3413D@vpnc.org> References: <20140820063228.GD3104@localhost> <53F489F7.9050507@wp.pl> To: IETF JSON WG X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/EE7HyZOclD6pehvopVJxA_IoW5U Subject: Re: [Json] json-text-sequence-05 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 15:15:17 -0000 On Aug 20, 2014, at 4:43 AM, Dominik Tomaszuk wrote: > RS is not defined in RFC5234. Correct. Nico: for the -06, please add the following to the ABNF: RS = %x1E --Paul Hoffman From nobody Wed Aug 20 08:30:20 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8C981A06D1 for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2014 08:30:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.647 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.647 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6GyGz2NxE2ka for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2014 08:30:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from proper.com (Hoffman.Proper.COM [207.182.41.81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4CE4F1A069A for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2014 08:30:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.20.30.90] (50-0-66-181.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net [50.0.66.181]) (authenticated bits=0) by proper.com (8.14.9/8.14.7) with ESMTP id s7KFU74r007975 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 20 Aug 2014 08:30:10 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: proper.com: Host 50-0-66-181.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net [50.0.66.181] claimed to be [10.20.30.90] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) From: Paul Hoffman In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 08:30:06 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20140820063228.GD3104@localhost> <53F489F7.9050507@wp.pl> To: Tim Bray X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/E2cwHa7pPkakG_Y1qkUbBE4Zf1w Cc: "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] json-text-sequence-05 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 15:30:15 -0000 On Aug 20, 2014, at 7:48 AM, Tim Bray wrote: > Comments on this draft: >=20 > Section 1.1. Don=92t think this section is necessary any more Agree. > Section 2. Remove =93, which may be delimited by an external = end-of-stream marker)=94 which adds no value. I have no idea what an = =93end-of-stream marker=94 means. Agree. > Section 2.2 Not sure about this section; this document exists to = describe the RS-delimited version of multiple-JSON-texts; the fact that = there are a number of ways to do this is interesting, but that=92s not = what this exists to describe. I get it, Postel=92s law and all that, = but it feels like a distraction for the implementor. Disagree; I think it is reasonable to leave it in. > Wow, is this ever simple. I like it and I think most implementors = would too. +1. --Paul Hoffman= From nobody Wed Aug 20 09:05:29 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9AD61A0722 for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2014 09:05:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.269 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.269 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.668, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9PJeA5JluU98 for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2014 09:05:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4CA081A0705 for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2014 09:05:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1XK8Nz-0003Ea-V3; Wed, 20 Aug 2014 12:05:20 -0400 Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 12:05:19 -0400 From: John Cowan To: Tim Bray Message-ID: <20140820160519.GE8778@mercury.ccil.org> References: <20140820063228.GD3104@localhost> <53F489F7.9050507@wp.pl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Sender: John Cowan Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/6gMf4DmOkgSoTyrF3R7JvQr7yRM Cc: Dominik Tomaszuk , "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] json-text-sequence-05 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2014 16:05:26 -0000 Tim Bray scripsit: > Section 2.2 Not sure about this section; this document exists to describe > the RS-delimited version of multiple-JSON-texts; the fact that there are a > number of ways to do this is interesting, but that’s not what this exists > to describe. I get it, Postel’s law and all that, but it feels like a > distraction for the implementor. -1. Whitespace-separated sequences should be understood for backward compatibility. The sentence "JSON text sequence encoders MAY emit an RS after emitting a JSON text" should instead be encoded in the BNF by adding "*RS" to the end of the JSON-sequence rule. > Wow, is this ever simple. I like it and I think most implementors would > too. +1 -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org Nobody expects the RESTifarian Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise ... surprise and tedium ... tedium and surprise .... Our two weapons are tedium and surprise ... and ruthless disregard for unpleasant facts.... Our three weapons are tedium, surprise, and ruthless disregard ... and an almost fanatical devotion to Roy Fielding.... From nobody Wed Aug 20 21:26:56 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63C141A700C for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2014 21:26:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_AU=0.377, HOST_EQ_AU=0.327, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RELAY_IS_203=0.994] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MWGmpXDdyJ-a for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2014 21:26:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ipxbvo.tcif.telstra.com.au (ipxbvo.tcif.telstra.com.au [203.35.135.204]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 102131A700B for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2014 21:26:51 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.01,906,1399989600"; d="scan'208,217";a="232172710" Received: from unknown (HELO ipcbvi.tcif.telstra.com.au) ([10.97.217.204]) by ipobvi.tcif.telstra.com.au with ESMTP; 21 Aug 2014 14:18:22 +1000 X-IronPort-AV: E=McAfee;i="5600,1067,7536"; a="243713664" Received: from wsmsg3756.srv.dir.telstra.com ([172.49.40.84]) by ipcbvi.tcif.telstra.com.au with ESMTP; 21 Aug 2014 14:26:51 +1000 Received: from WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com ([172.49.40.159]) by wsmsg3756.srv.dir.telstra.com ([172.49.40.84]) with mapi; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 14:26:49 +1000 From: "Manger, James" To: "json@ietf.org" Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 14:26:48 +1000 Thread-Topic: [Json] json-text-sequence-05 Thread-Index: Ac+8hdHHTzJkRPChTUuAgki8LMx2JAAb0o3w Message-ID: <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E127C6A03672@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> References: <20140820063228.GD3104@localhost> <53F489F7.9050507@wp.pl> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US, en-AU Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US, en-AU Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E127C6A03672WSMSG3153Vsrv_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/ah7eOU3xYugcVRQq7AiBAJNWqeg Subject: Re: [Json] json-text-sequence-05 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 04:26:55 -0000 --_000_255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E127C6A03672WSMSG3153Vsrv_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 aHR0cDovL3Rvb2xzLmlldGYub3JnL2h0bWwvZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi1qc29uLXRleHQtc2VxdWVuY2Ut MDUNCg0KPj4gV293LCBpcyB0aGlzIGV2ZXIgc2ltcGxlLiAgSSBsaWtlIGl0IGFuZCBJIHRoaW5r IG1vc3QgaW1wbGVtZW50b3JzIHdvdWxkIHRvby4NCg0KU2ltcGxpY2l0eSBpcyBuaWNlLCBidXQg aW4gdGhpcyBjYXNlIGl0IGRvZXNu4oCZdCBtYWtlIGl0IHVzYWJsZS4NCg0KRm9yIGluc3RhbmNl LCBhIG1ham9yIGZhaWxpbmcgb2YgdGhpcyBSUy1iYXNlZCB2ZXJzaW9uIGlzIHRoYXQgYSBzaW5n bGUgSlNPTiB2YWx1ZSBpcyBubyBsb25nZXIgYSB2YWxpZCBKU09OIFNlcXVlbmNlIG9mIDEgaXRl bSAoc2luY2UgaXQgZG9lc27igJl0IGhhdmUgYSBsZWFkaW5nIFJTKS4NCg0KQmVpbmcgc2ltcGxl IHRvIGltcGxlbWVudCBhIEpTT04gU2VxdWVuY2UgcGFyc2VyIGlzIG5pY2UsIGJ1dCB0aGF0IGNv bnNpZGVyYXRpb24gc2hvdWxkIGJlIGEgZGlzdGFudCBzZWNvbmQgdG8gYmVpbmcgc2ltcGxlIHRv IGNyZWF0ZSBKU09OIFNlcXVlbmNlcyBmcm9tIGFueSBvZiBvdXIgdGV4dC1iYXNlZCB0b29scy4g UlMgcmVhbGx5IGh1cnRzIHRoZSBsYXR0ZXIuIEkgZG9u4oCZdCBrbm93IG9mIGEgc2luZ2xlIGZv cm1hdCB0aGF0IHVzZXMgUlMgYXMgYSBzZXBhcmF0b3I7IGNvbXBhcmVkIHRvIGEgc3F1aWxsaW9u IHRoYXQgdXNlIG5ld2xpbmUuDQoNCi0tDQpKYW1lcyBNYW5nZXINCg0K --_000_255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E127C6A03672WSMSG3153Vsrv_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 PGh0bWwgeG1sbnM6dj0idXJuOnNjaGVtYXMtbWljcm9zb2Z0LWNvbTp2bWwiIHhtbG5zOm89InVy bjpzY2hlbWFzLW1pY3Jvc29mdC1jb206b2ZmaWNlOm9mZmljZSIgeG1sbnM6dz0idXJuOnNjaGVt YXMtbWljcm9zb2Z0LWNvbTpvZmZpY2U6d29yZCIgeG1sbnM6bT0iaHR0cDovL3NjaGVtYXMubWlj cm9zb2Z0LmNvbS9vZmZpY2UvMjAwNC8xMi9vbW1sIiB4bWxucz0iaHR0cDovL3d3dy53My5vcmcv VFIvUkVDLWh0bWw0MCI+PGhlYWQ+PG1ldGEgaHR0cC1lcXVpdj1Db250ZW50LVR5cGUgY29udGVu dD0idGV4dC9odG1sOyBjaGFyc2V0PXV0Zi04Ij48bWV0YSBuYW1lPUdlbmVyYXRvciBjb250ZW50 PSJNaWNyb3NvZnQgV29yZCAxMiAoZmlsdGVyZWQgbWVkaXVtKSI+PHN0eWxlPjwhLS0NCi8qIEZv bnQgRGVmaW5pdGlvbnMgKi8NCkBmb250LWZhY2UNCgl7Zm9udC1mYW1pbHk6V2luZ2RpbmdzOw0K CXBhbm9zZS0xOjUgMCAwIDAgMCAwIDAgMCAwIDA7fQ0KQGZvbnQtZmFjZQ0KCXtmb250LWZhbWls eToiQ2FtYnJpYSBNYXRoIjsNCglwYW5vc2UtMToyIDQgNSAzIDUgNCA2IDMgMiA0O30NCkBmb250 LWZhY2UNCgl7Zm9udC1mYW1pbHk6Q2FsaWJyaTsNCglwYW5vc2UtMToyIDE1IDUgMiAyIDIgNCAz IDIgNDt9DQovKiBTdHlsZSBEZWZpbml0aW9ucyAqLw0KcC5Nc29Ob3JtYWwsIGxpLk1zb05vcm1h bCwgZGl2Lk1zb05vcm1hbA0KCXttYXJnaW46MGNtOw0KCW1hcmdpbi1ib3R0b206LjAwMDFwdDsN Cglmb250LXNpemU6MTIuMHB0Ow0KCWZvbnQtZmFtaWx5OiJUaW1lcyBOZXcgUm9tYW4iLCJzZXJp ZiI7fQ0KYTpsaW5rLCBzcGFuLk1zb0h5cGVybGluaw0KCXttc28tc3R5bGUtcHJpb3JpdHk6OTk7 DQoJY29sb3I6Ymx1ZTsNCgl0ZXh0LWRlY29yYXRpb246dW5kZXJsaW5lO30NCmE6dmlzaXRlZCwg c3Bhbi5Nc29IeXBlcmxpbmtGb2xsb3dlZA0KCXttc28tc3R5bGUtcHJpb3JpdHk6OTk7DQoJY29s b3I6cHVycGxlOw0KCXRleHQtZGVjb3JhdGlvbjp1bmRlcmxpbmU7fQ0KcC5Nc29MaXN0UGFyYWdy YXBoLCBsaS5Nc29MaXN0UGFyYWdyYXBoLCBkaXYuTXNvTGlzdFBhcmFncmFwaA0KCXttc28tc3R5 bGUtcHJpb3JpdHk6MzQ7DQoJbWFyZ2luLXRvcDowY207DQoJbWFyZ2luLXJpZ2h0OjBjbTsNCglt YXJnaW4tYm90dG9tOjBjbTsNCgltYXJnaW4tbGVmdDozNi4wcHQ7DQoJbWFyZ2luLWJvdHRvbTou MDAwMXB0Ow0KCWZvbnQtc2l6ZToxMi4wcHQ7DQoJZm9udC1mYW1pbHk6IlRpbWVzIE5ldyBSb21h biIsInNlcmlmIjt9DQpzcGFuLkVtYWlsU3R5bGUxNw0KCXttc28tc3R5bGUtdHlwZTpwZXJzb25h bC1yZXBseTsNCglmb250LWZhbWlseToiQ2FsaWJyaSIsInNhbnMtc2VyaWYiOw0KCWNvbG9yOiMx RjQ5N0Q7fQ0KLk1zb0NocERlZmF1bHQNCgl7bXNvLXN0eWxlLXR5cGU6ZXhwb3J0LW9ubHk7fQ0K QHBhZ2UgV29yZFNlY3Rpb24xDQoJe3NpemU6NjEyLjBwdCA3OTIuMHB0Ow0KCW1hcmdpbjo3Mi4w cHQgNzIuMHB0IDcyLjBwdCA3Mi4wcHQ7fQ0KZGl2LldvcmRTZWN0aW9uMQ0KCXtwYWdlOldvcmRT ZWN0aW9uMTt9DQovKiBMaXN0IERlZmluaXRpb25zICovDQpAbGlzdCBsMA0KCXttc28tbGlzdC1p ZDoyMDM5NTc3NDE5Ow0KCW1zby1saXN0LXR5cGU6aHlicmlkOw0KCW1zby1saXN0LXRlbXBsYXRl LWlkczotNjc5MTc3NzEwIC0xMjI5MTMzOTM4IDIwMTkxNjQxOSAyMDE5MTY0MjEgMjAxOTE2NDE3 IDIwMTkxNjQxOSAyMDE5MTY0MjEgMjAxOTE2NDE3IDIwMTkxNjQxOSAyMDE5MTY0MjE7fQ0KQGxp c3QgbDA6bGV2ZWwxDQoJe21zby1sZXZlbC1zdGFydC1hdDowOw0KCW1zby1sZXZlbC1udW1iZXIt Zm9ybWF0OmJ1bGxldDsNCgltc28tbGV2ZWwtdGV4dDrvgrc7DQoJbXNvLWxldmVsLXRhYi1zdG9w Om5vbmU7DQoJbXNvLWxldmVsLW51bWJlci1wb3NpdGlvbjpsZWZ0Ow0KCXRleHQtaW5kZW50Oi0x OC4wcHQ7DQoJZm9udC1mYW1pbHk6U3ltYm9sOw0KCW1zby1mYXJlYXN0LWZvbnQtZmFtaWx5OkNh bGlicmk7DQoJbXNvLWJpZGktZm9udC1mYW1pbHk6IlRpbWVzIE5ldyBSb21hbiI7fQ0Kb2wNCgl7 bWFyZ2luLWJvdHRvbTowY207fQ0KdWwNCgl7bWFyZ2luLWJvdHRvbTowY207fQ0KLS0+PC9zdHls ZT48IS0tW2lmIGd0ZSBtc28gOV0+PHhtbD4NCjxvOnNoYXBlZGVmYXVsdHMgdjpleHQ9ImVkaXQi IHNwaWRtYXg9IjEwMjYiIC8+DQo8L3htbD48IVtlbmRpZl0tLT48IS0tW2lmIGd0ZSBtc28gOV0+ PHhtbD4NCjxvOnNoYXBlbGF5b3V0IHY6ZXh0PSJlZGl0Ij4NCjxvOmlkbWFwIHY6ZXh0PSJlZGl0 IiBkYXRhPSIxIiAvPg0KPC9vOnNoYXBlbGF5b3V0PjwveG1sPjwhW2VuZGlmXS0tPjwvaGVhZD48 Ym9keSBsYW5nPUVOLUFVIGxpbms9Ymx1ZSB2bGluaz1wdXJwbGU+PGRpdiBjbGFzcz1Xb3JkU2Vj dGlvbjE+PHAgY2xhc3M9TXNvTm9ybWFsPjxzcGFuIHN0eWxlPSdmb250LXNpemU6MTEuMHB0O2Zv bnQtZmFtaWx5OiJDYWxpYnJpIiwic2Fucy1zZXJpZiI7Y29sb3I6IzFGNDk3RCc+PGEgaHJlZj0i aHR0cDovL3Rvb2xzLmlldGYub3JnL2h0bWwvZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi1qc29uLXRleHQtc2VxdWVuY2Ut MDUiPmh0dHA6Ly90b29scy5pZXRmLm9yZy9odG1sL2RyYWZ0LWlldGYtanNvbi10ZXh0LXNlcXVl bmNlLTA1PC9hPjxvOnA+PC9vOnA+PC9zcGFuPjwvcD48cCBjbGFzcz1Nc29Ob3JtYWw+PHNwYW4g c3R5bGU9J2ZvbnQtc2l6ZToxMS4wcHQ7Zm9udC1mYW1pbHk6IkNhbGlicmkiLCJzYW5zLXNlcmlm Ijtjb2xvcjojMUY0OTdEJz48bzpwPiZuYnNwOzwvbzpwPjwvc3Bhbj48L3A+PHAgY2xhc3M9TXNv Tm9ybWFsPjxzcGFuIHN0eWxlPSdmb250LXNpemU6MTEuMHB0O2ZvbnQtZmFtaWx5OiJDYWxpYnJp Iiwic2Fucy1zZXJpZiI7Y29sb3I6IzFGNDk3RCc+Jmd0OyZndDsgPC9zcGFuPldvdywgaXMgdGhp cyBldmVyIHNpbXBsZS4gJm5ic3A7SSBsaWtlIGl0IGFuZCBJIHRoaW5rIG1vc3QgaW1wbGVtZW50 b3JzIHdvdWxkIHRvby48bzpwPjwvbzpwPjwvcD48cCBjbGFzcz1Nc29Ob3JtYWw+PHNwYW4gc3R5 bGU9J2ZvbnQtc2l6ZToxMS4wcHQ7Zm9udC1mYW1pbHk6IkNhbGlicmkiLCJzYW5zLXNlcmlmIjtj b2xvcjojMUY0OTdEJz48bzpwPiZuYnNwOzwvbzpwPjwvc3Bhbj48L3A+PHAgY2xhc3M9TXNvTm9y bWFsPjxzcGFuIHN0eWxlPSdmb250LXNpemU6MTEuMHB0O2ZvbnQtZmFtaWx5OiJDYWxpYnJpIiwi c2Fucy1zZXJpZiI7Y29sb3I6IzFGNDk3RCc+U2ltcGxpY2l0eSBpcyBuaWNlLCBidXQgaW4gdGhp cyBjYXNlIGl0IGRvZXNu4oCZdCBtYWtlIGl0IHVzYWJsZS48bzpwPjwvbzpwPjwvc3Bhbj48L3A+ PHAgY2xhc3M9TXNvTm9ybWFsPjxzcGFuIHN0eWxlPSdmb250LXNpemU6MTEuMHB0O2ZvbnQtZmFt aWx5OiJDYWxpYnJpIiwic2Fucy1zZXJpZiI7Y29sb3I6IzFGNDk3RCc+PG86cD4mbmJzcDs8L286 cD48L3NwYW4+PC9wPjxwIGNsYXNzPU1zb05vcm1hbD48c3BhbiBzdHlsZT0nZm9udC1zaXplOjEx LjBwdDtmb250LWZhbWlseToiQ2FsaWJyaSIsInNhbnMtc2VyaWYiO2NvbG9yOiMxRjQ5N0QnPkZv ciBpbnN0YW5jZSwgYSBtYWpvciBmYWlsaW5nIG9mIHRoaXMgUlMtYmFzZWQgdmVyc2lvbiBpcyB0 aGF0IGEgc2luZ2xlIEpTT04gdmFsdWUgaXMgbm8gbG9uZ2VyIGEgdmFsaWQgSlNPTiBTZXF1ZW5j ZSBvZiAxIGl0ZW0gKHNpbmNlIGl0IGRvZXNu4oCZdCBoYXZlIGEgbGVhZGluZyBSUykuPG86cD48 L286cD48L3NwYW4+PC9wPjxwIGNsYXNzPU1zb05vcm1hbD48c3BhbiBzdHlsZT0nZm9udC1zaXpl OjExLjBwdDtmb250LWZhbWlseToiQ2FsaWJyaSIsInNhbnMtc2VyaWYiO2NvbG9yOiMxRjQ5N0Qn PjxvOnA+Jm5ic3A7PC9vOnA+PC9zcGFuPjwvcD48cCBjbGFzcz1Nc29Ob3JtYWw+PHNwYW4gc3R5 bGU9J2ZvbnQtc2l6ZToxMS4wcHQ7Zm9udC1mYW1pbHk6IkNhbGlicmkiLCJzYW5zLXNlcmlmIjtj b2xvcjojMUY0OTdEJz5CZWluZyBzaW1wbGUgdG8gaW1wbGVtZW50IGEgSlNPTiBTZXF1ZW5jZSBw YXJzZXIgaXMgbmljZSwgYnV0IHRoYXQgY29uc2lkZXJhdGlvbiBzaG91bGQgYmUgYSBkaXN0YW50 IHNlY29uZCB0byBiZWluZyBzaW1wbGUgdG8gY3JlYXRlIEpTT04gU2VxdWVuY2VzIGZyb20gYW55 IG9mIG91ciB0ZXh0LWJhc2VkIHRvb2xzLiBSUyByZWFsbHkgaHVydHMgdGhlIGxhdHRlci4gSSBk b27igJl0IGtub3cgb2YgYSBzaW5nbGUgZm9ybWF0IHRoYXQgdXNlcyBSUyBhcyBhIHNlcGFyYXRv cjsgY29tcGFyZWQgdG8gYSBzcXVpbGxpb24gdGhhdCB1c2UgbmV3bGluZS48bzpwPjwvbzpwPjwv c3Bhbj48L3A+PHAgY2xhc3M9TXNvTm9ybWFsPjxzcGFuIHN0eWxlPSdmb250LXNpemU6MTEuMHB0 O2ZvbnQtZmFtaWx5OiJDYWxpYnJpIiwic2Fucy1zZXJpZiI7Y29sb3I6IzFGNDk3RCc+PG86cD4m bmJzcDs8L286cD48L3NwYW4+PC9wPjxwIGNsYXNzPU1zb05vcm1hbD48c3BhbiBzdHlsZT0nZm9u dC1zaXplOjExLjBwdDtmb250LWZhbWlseToiQ2FsaWJyaSIsInNhbnMtc2VyaWYiO2NvbG9yOiMx RjQ5N0QnPi0tPG86cD48L286cD48L3NwYW4+PC9wPjxwIGNsYXNzPU1zb05vcm1hbD48c3BhbiBz dHlsZT0nZm9udC1zaXplOjExLjBwdDtmb250LWZhbWlseToiQ2FsaWJyaSIsInNhbnMtc2VyaWYi O2NvbG9yOiMxRjQ5N0QnPkphbWVzIE1hbmdlcjxvOnA+PC9vOnA+PC9zcGFuPjwvcD48ZGl2Pjxk aXY+PGRpdj48cCBjbGFzcz1Nc29Ob3JtYWw+PG86cD4mbmJzcDs8L286cD48L3A+PC9kaXY+PC9k aXY+PC9kaXY+PC9kaXY+PC9ib2R5PjwvaHRtbD4= --_000_255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E127C6A03672WSMSG3153Vsrv_-- From nobody Wed Aug 20 22:08:36 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F3071A6F96 for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2014 22:08:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.55 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hC_EM6qQ43j0 for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2014 22:08:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.web.de (mout.web.de [212.227.17.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 323A81A702B for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2014 22:08:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from newyork.local.box ([80.187.104.172]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb101) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0Mf0cv-1X0AEO0X7Z-00OUVM for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 07:08:29 +0200 Message-ID: <53F57ECC.2080406@drees.name> Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 07:08:28 +0200 From: Stefan Drees User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.8; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: json@ietf.org References: <20140820063228.GD3104@localhost> <53F489F7.9050507@wp.pl> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E127C6A03672@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> In-Reply-To: <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E127C6A03672@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:PIYeDkakXlXPXggWOjXGDGnT0+IHmt0mWGpRiKDz1JpX/peXQ0G kD2+7wKhS211HSaHCQKM+YvMwKg+dHktKI98eRO+ViawKdT9qdaEtt30e/U+GHPA8B8No+R 2tbRQzqE1sog1yPFTzpKewNzHOeI3swI6bcMeIXvNEWvAYRbFkB3y8++Id6/8JWrp/Gvb6I gw+CW/RosuFU8M0QMyx3g== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1; Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/vMXQj6mEpu9r9uhTuT2f5x6Qx0c Subject: Re: [Json] json-text-sequence-05 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: stefan@drees.name List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 05:08:33 -0000 Am 21.08.14 06:26, schrieb Manger, James: > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-05 > >>>Wow, is this ever simple. I like it and I think most implementors would > too. +0 (being relevant once in many use cases, 'til the nut is cracked) > Simplicity is nice, but in this case it doesnt make it usable. > > For instance, a major failing of this RS-based version is that a single > JSON value is no longer a valid JSON Sequence of 1 item (since it > doesnt have a leading RS). > > Being simple to implement a JSON Sequence parser is nice, but that > consideration should be a distant second to being simple to create JSON > Sequences from any of our text-based tools. RS really hurts the latter. > I dont know of a single format that uses RS as a separator; compared to > a squillion that use newline. +1 "stefan" From nobody Wed Aug 20 22:28:12 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96CFB1A702B for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2014 22:28:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.044 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.044 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TiajOuY42YSz for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2014 22:28:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a86.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFB151A7013 for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2014 22:28:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a86.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a86.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 704C636006B for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2014 22:28:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s= cryptonector.com; bh=IpG3Wx/tBSZIbUHDvrTmvjFUZBM=; b=KRVZlGyn3l7 PxXsGHnG7Yve0ndS8Vh337x2+va25FCA/gkLBdct1X0EqvG7QwEv6bUj6Yx029rQ in6LOfsd8/kSfibfy6JjWWNm9LsVDwglul1VyugJmYAEAMNxGcuL7GsbIKvIP3dl O+8ge8Xcawi9Lcdy6q6T3i/GDm952PXI= Received: from mail-wi0-f179.google.com (mail-wi0-f179.google.com [209.85.212.179]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a86.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2243936006A for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2014 22:28:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wi0-f179.google.com with SMTP id f8so7881805wiw.12 for ; Wed, 20 Aug 2014 22:28:06 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.72.209 with SMTP id f17mr2131705wiv.3.1408598886811; Wed, 20 Aug 2014 22:28:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.231.131 with HTTP; Wed, 20 Aug 2014 22:28:06 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E127C6A03672@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> References: <20140820063228.GD3104@localhost> <53F489F7.9050507@wp.pl> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E127C6A03672@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 00:28:06 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: "Manger, James" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/62I20HEXh7yJF8xAM-GBhqi9sUo Cc: "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] json-text-sequence-05 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 05:28:09 -0000 On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 11:26 PM, Manger, James wrote: >>> Wow, is this ever simple. I like it and I think most implementors woul= d >>> too. > > Simplicity is nice, but in this case it doesn=E2=80=99t make it usable. That's my take. I don't see how I can use JSON text sequences with RS -- if that were the consensus we might yet publish, but I would probably not implement an encoder for it. Among the many problems with using RS is the same problem some of us had with the I-JSON requirement that the top-level be an object: it doesn't compose. Consider jq for instance. It uses LF, and will continue to regardless of what we choose here, though I would add an option for emitting RS instead. The problem is that the point in a "pipeline" at which the network intrudes and demands RS is not necessarily clear, but at all other points existing tooling won't handle RS. Net effect: jq will be harder to use. > For instance, a major failing of this RS-based version is that a single J= SON > value is no longer a valid JSON Sequence of 1 item (since it doesn=E2=80= =99t have a > leading RS). Indeed! Nico -- From nobody Thu Aug 21 07:16:01 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63F361A8739 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 07:15:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.647 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.647 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jdLYpBcjcucc for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 07:15:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from proper.com (Hoffman.Proper.COM [207.182.41.81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C17131A0344 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 07:15:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.20.30.90] (50-0-66-181.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net [50.0.66.181]) (authenticated bits=0) by proper.com (8.14.9/8.14.7) with ESMTP id s7LEFqNC064720 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 21 Aug 2014 07:15:55 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: proper.com: Host 50-0-66-181.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net [50.0.66.181] claimed to be [10.20.30.90] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) From: Paul Hoffman In-Reply-To: <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E127C6A03672@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 07:15:52 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <9C0ECFBE-E664-42ED-895D-22DC940ECADA@vpnc.org> References: <20140820063228.GD3104@localhost> <53F489F7.9050507@wp.pl> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E127C6A03672@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> To: "Manger, James" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/0v8rH5P6N5Wio2-_IY5Hk1sh5-Q Cc: "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] json-text-sequence-05 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 14:15:59 -0000 On Aug 20, 2014, at 9:26 PM, Manger, James = wrote: > For instance, a major failing of this RS-based version is that a = single JSON value is no longer a valid JSON Sequence of 1 item (since it = doesn=92t have a leading RS). What scenarios do you envision where there would be a JSON sequence with = only a single entry? > Being simple to implement a JSON Sequence parser is nice, but that = consideration should be a distant second to being simple to create JSON = Sequences from any of our text-based tools. RS really hurts the latter. = I don=92t know of a single format that uses RS as a separator; compared = to a squillion that use newline. If you disagree with the text at the beginning of Section 1. However, = that set of scenarios is the one we are evaluating the document against. --Paul Hoffman= From nobody Thu Aug 21 07:56:37 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E03F91A03B5 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 07:56:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id W5YSWfPGASBv for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 07:56:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vc0-f172.google.com (mail-vc0-f172.google.com [209.85.220.172]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2B4DA1A038F for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 07:56:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vc0-f172.google.com with SMTP id im17so10866818vcb.31 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 07:56:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=1F2kYKJTlRicnX/RVERL4v/Wt2bPHTDtzeLR//6vG4Y=; b=CXH76bmQP1l5xsiWGY7kBUKcxq46eOXW+lRIOc6BHXhjMVr8woOpnk7p7MGTDpdkIh xOyJhf3iZjA1rdsItGZFYgNRVn+enMBgCCI5p4FA9g5lOB2iG3KuBdNGAFUmhBziG6CZ Y4oYqHbt1WGdEI6ToXWObPEl7ygd0xY6dGq9omhx67DHJz99pvLtdTvI0UbpQ5MfRIqC LloQjk2pzElO8LvF8xcFdEPfc4sHBqP7u9tukQdUbd2ucosSoMrdrjLHb0S/aXaqtlRk d4oP/rgeI+fQ7RCEekMrVQAo180+YVnEX+lw7mEhX4BRme0DdiSgpQMHdYXCAniDudgc x8nA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnwFqYKbhTuW/uu8mC77nLtORuBpH+ZKvdw3JLkT2096p35Pcgd6NGWEiCcDfvOxF34vhUq X-Received: by 10.220.2.136 with SMTP id 8mr42330220vcj.17.1408632993855; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 07:56:33 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.221.49.194 with HTTP; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 07:56:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [24.84.235.32] In-Reply-To: <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E127C6A03672@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> References: <20140820063228.GD3104@localhost> <53F489F7.9050507@wp.pl> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E127C6A03672@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> From: Tim Bray Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 07:56:13 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Manger, James" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c3bee237d45f050124ed85 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/lgNcIcm81qZSVUWE3YwMLycD4AQ Cc: "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] json-text-sequence-05 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 14:56:37 -0000 --001a11c3bee237d45f050124ed85 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 9:26 PM, Manger, James < James.H.Manger@team.telstra.com> wrote: > > > For instance, a major failing of this RS-based version is that a single > JSON value is no longer a valid JSON Sequence of 1 item (since it doesn= =E2=80=99t > have a leading RS). > =E2=80=8BWhy is this a failing: Code to create a seq: foreach record generate JSON emit 0x1E emit JSON Code to read a seq: while !eof scan for 0x1E parse JSON=E2=80=8B =E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B =E2=80=8BI can=E2=80=99t imagine how implementers will get this wrong =E2=80=8B > Being simple to implement a JSON Sequence parser is nice, but that > consideration should be a distant second to being simple to create JSON > Sequences from any of our text-based tools. RS really hurts the latter. I > don=E2=80=99t know of a single format that uses RS as a separator; compar= ed to a > squillion that use newline. > =E2=80=8BI can=E2=80=99t imagine wanting to generate a seq from anything ot= her than the logging module of a computer program. See above.=E2=80=8B > > > -- > > James Manger > > > > _______________________________________________ > json mailing list > json@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json > > --=20 - Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a private message, see https://keybase.io/timbray) --001a11c3bee237d45f050124ed85 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On = Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 9:26 PM, Manger, James <James.H.Mange= r@team.telstra.com> wrote:

=C2=A0

For instance, a major failing of this RS-based version is that a single= JSON value is no longer a valid JSON Sequence of 1 item (since it doesn=E2= =80=99t have a leading RS).


=E2=80=8BWhy is this a failing: =C2=A0Code to crea= te a seq:

<= /div>
foreach record
= =C2=A0 generate JSON
=C2=A0 emit 0x1E
=C2=A0 emit JSON

Code to read a seq:

while !eof
=C2= =A0 scan for 0x1E
=C2=A0 parse JSON=E2=80=8B
=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B
=E2=80=8BI can=E2=80=99t imagine how implementers will get this wrong
=
=E2=80=8B
=C2=A0

Being s= imple to implement a JSON Sequence parser is nice, but that consideration s= hould be a distant second to being simple to create JSON Sequences from any= of our text-based tools. RS really hurts the latter. I don=E2=80=99t know = of a single format that uses RS as a separator; compared to a squillion tha= t use newline.


=E2=80=8BI can=E2=80=99t imagine wanting to genera= te a seq from anything other than the logging module of a computer program.= =C2=A0See above.=E2=80=8B



=C2=A0

= =C2=A0

--

James Manger<= /u>

=C2=A0

<= /div>

_______________________________________________
json mailing list
json@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json




--
- Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a private messag= e, see https://key= base.io/timbray)
--001a11c3bee237d45f050124ed85-- From nobody Thu Aug 21 08:00:54 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A27D21A0113 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 08:00:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OvmhLYWPSKeh for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 08:00:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vc0-f180.google.com (mail-vc0-f180.google.com [209.85.220.180]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A89471A8764 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 08:00:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vc0-f180.google.com with SMTP id ij19so10873424vcb.39 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 08:00:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=kuDMH1/Y6Z9yNWh/+gIWDN4sHs3l6Zuoa/DxWykMYPc=; b=JjOON7HwoRfBt8bBPVl1vVAbD3zXLFc7JzH/Kn0mCphK5v+vI4vHOuMmDMMS81pJX0 u0uF7IZ5y0MqE9Z3Sx3llLyT/i0ZU0VvIuyuCTzaKevhqJTnQHM2l5gKlcYXqnrhmS7x 2hYf++ndSivL27hb2t5oykIEn14k3QmljkWRQW9srbqtN+i7XDY37Mr7gl8h0lCcACYb PhKe05AmeZZO2qyrsuDJSOWunbIYT40z1fNGW0eCi7lZRutofDPeuENujUjpFQPH4cec dYZOWK5vv3Ouf/FqytJJdY/d8P/cPxdblYIDYjZdWeZ3BIAJ20Zww1O5M9N2M7RG0Lhf Hpkg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmyPm5ULwmej9aeuwRHxAnmr5RYvYeF6RkYzzP0Kifp7UOwVmDaOXeqeCyiv3jtNfBTJRBU X-Received: by 10.52.3.40 with SMTP id 8mr8359034vdz.24.1408633244812; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 08:00:44 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.221.49.194 with HTTP; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 08:00:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [24.84.235.32] In-Reply-To: References: <20140820063228.GD3104@localhost> <53F489F7.9050507@wp.pl> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E127C6A03672@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> From: Tim Bray Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 08:00:24 -0700 Message-ID: To: Nico Williams Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf3030c11f2d1fa2050124fc05 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/06r_UknmTvZM18Q0pjm12UeYXgo Cc: "Manger, James" , "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] json-text-sequence-05 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 15:00:51 -0000 --20cf3030c11f2d1fa2050124fc05 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 10:28 PM, Nico Williams wrote: > =E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B > That's my take. I don't see how I can use JSON text sequences with RS > =E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B > -- if that were the consensus we might yet publish, but I would > =E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B > probably not implement an encoder for it. > =E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B > > =E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B > > =E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B > Among the many problems with using RS is the same problem some of us > =E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B > had with the I-JSON requirement that the top-level be an object: it > =E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B > doesn't compose. > =E2=80=8BExcuse me=E2=80=A6 (0x1e json-text=E2=80=8B)* composes beautifully= . =E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B > Consider jq for instance. It uses LF, and will continue to regardless > of what we choose here, If a little-used piece of software announces in advance it=E2=80=99s going = to ignore the output of a WG, that=E2=80=99s worth consideration, but in this = case it doesn=E2=80=99t seem like a very decisive argument. > though I would add an option for emitting RS > instead. The problem is that the point in a "pipeline" at which the > network intrudes and demands RS is not necessarily clear, =E2=80=8BYes it is. When you want to emit a seq, you prefix each text with = 0x1E. When you want to read it, you scan for and consume the 0x1E=E2=80=99s, and= pass the texts in between to the application software. It seems that this is a reliable, simple, and no-brainer for developers to implement. --=20 - Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a private message, see https://keybase.io/timbray) --20cf3030c11f2d1fa2050124fc05 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On = Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 10:28 PM, Nico Williams <nico@cryptonector.com> wrote:
=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B
That's my take.=C2=A0 I don't see how I can= use JSON text sequences with RS
=E2= =80=8B=E2=80=8B
-- if that were the consensus we might yet publish, bu= t I would
=E2= =80=8B=E2=80=8B
probably not implement an encoder for it.
=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B=

=E2= =80=8B=E2=80=8B

=E2= =80=8B=E2=80=8B
Among the many problems with using RS is the same prob= lem some of us
=E2= =80=8B=E2=80=8B
had with the I-JSON requirement that the top-level be = an object: it
=E2= =80=8B=E2=80=8B
doesn't compose.

=E2=80=8BExcuse m= e=E2=80=A6 (0x1e json-text=E2=80=8B)* composes beautifully.
=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B
Consider jq for instance.=C2=A0 It uses LF, and will continue to regardless=
of what we choose here,

If a little-used piece of software anno= unces in advance it=E2=80=99s going to ignore the output of a WG, that=E2= =80=99s worth consideration, but in this case it doesn=E2=80=99t seem like = a very decisive argument.

=C2=A0
though I wou= ld add an option for emitting RS
instead.=C2=A0 The problem is that the point in a "pipeline" at w= hich the
network intrudes and demands RS is not necessarily clear,
=
=E2= =80=8BYes it is. When you want to emit a seq, you prefix each text with 0x1= E. =C2=A0When you want to read it, you scan for and consume the 0x1E=E2=80= =99s, and pass the texts in between to the application software.

It seems that this is a reliab= le, simple, and no-brainer for developers to implement. =C2=A0



--
--20cf3030c11f2d1fa2050124fc05-- From nobody Thu Aug 21 09:42:17 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7DC01A050E for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 09:42:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.666 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.666 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AITzsBSMCI0C for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 09:42:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a70.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE8491A04AA for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 09:42:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a70.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a70.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44C74768059; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 09:42:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; s= cryptonector.com; bh=u6rz5AIzvETSwXM7Cl62Mdc0f90=; b=qo+OtVNEIYl ys+z8t8hedNe6/liJwh487OXQAI+/0IvX4u08cRucW28X53DIjYgZgXWzzANW2O0 33HskzqO7Y82oKv8+yDaNPbatSME127e4BxVZzCigNZJBQalCnXnLrmJL4OlrQ5H 4pQYhF8yOEGu6a/o6+n+FPirMDlAhI6M= Received: from localhost (108-207-244-174.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net [108.207.244.174]) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a70.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id D2CF5768057; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 09:42:13 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 11:42:12 -0500 From: Nico Williams To: Tim Bray Message-ID: <20140821164210.GI3104@localhost> References: <20140820063228.GD3104@localhost> <53F489F7.9050507@wp.pl> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E127C6A03672@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/vgB3Vm3yb_iYqxPs0YB_ONlsQyg Cc: "Manger, James" , "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] json-text-sequence-05 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 16:42:16 -0000 On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 08:00:24AM -0700, Tim Bray wrote: > On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 10:28 PM, Nico Williams > wrote: > > Among the many problems with using RS is the same problem some of us > > had with the I-JSON requirement that the top-level be an object: it > > doesn't compose. > [...] > > Consider jq for instance. It uses LF, and will continue to regardles= s > > of what we choose here, >=20 > If a little-used piece of software announces in advance it=E2=80=99s go= ing to It's the inspiration for this I-D. That's not nothing. It's running code, for one. > ignore the output of a WG, that=E2=80=99s worth consideration, but in t= his case it > doesn=E2=80=99t seem like a very decisive argument. Tim, jq deals with text, because JSON is text. Except at the network boundary it would have to continue to use text for backwards compatibility reasons. The question is: how to make the network boundary (where we'd have to use RS) clear easily. I can make a good argument for why this isn't a problem: suppose we were to add CBOR (or some other binary JSON encoding) support... And/or a variety of other JSON-model-compatible encodings. Then clearly the user would have to demarcate the network boundary. Therefore using RS at the network boundary is no more burdensome than supporting any other encoding. (I thought of that last night, and it's almost enough to convince me. I'll sleep on it some more. But again, there's no chance that I'd use RS except at the network boundary, because LF is just too darned convenient/useful/useable.) Also, I think I'd recommend that texts be followed by LF in addition to being prefixed by RS: that way text-oriented tools that ignore RS will continue to work. Maybe _that_ will be good enough, if enough tools ignore RS! That would bring me over. > > though I would add an option for emitting RS > > instead. The problem is that the point in a "pipeline" at which the > > network intrudes and demands RS is not necessarily clear, >=20 > Yes it is. When you want to emit a seq, you prefix each text with 0x1E. jq has always dealt with sequences of JSON texts. > When you want to read it, you scan for and consume the 0x1E=E2=80=99s,= and pass > the texts in between to the application software. Parsing it is no big deal. It's knowing when to use LF (because backwards compat) and when to use RS (because interop). > It seems that this is a reliable, simple, and no-brainer for developers= to > implement. The LF thing is also simple to implement. And if loggers remove internal LFs then it's also reliable. It's as simple and reliable as RS. Nico --=20 From nobody Thu Aug 21 09:57:57 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7FC51A0453 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 09:57:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tMsezVjoJU2w for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 09:57:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vc0-f176.google.com (mail-vc0-f176.google.com [209.85.220.176]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 672221A069C for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 09:57:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vc0-f176.google.com with SMTP id id10so11042874vcb.35 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 09:57:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=L9eyyKKXMNmrO93ceeDDvaqE0HBmvCpXHEh70Xl5e+s=; b=jvnLCiQTrG52tNSi6O3lRduwpDikvgGet21KcZocdypfO1KbFsg8oDUMCrVsy0XG35 hIWXDwhl/vbFydrweKUYaGJnBr/cnBxtwiyp4Iu1mebESRFYxhQeuvjFyCpTyCsIo96M 00hIhCl+OUiumw58auMd1pwYgHU7xn7lIHn5el7uKyUmN968dMRuM0awfSucvhWxbBTM fPHfo3Rn5uxXXDpTzAg2Iy1GRPCk/FB9PusSfc9IaagdRNRkiYPZmqafM8TUAGWnsT/V H1EFGdyMu0deZ9w3FYs+PS2XEWuvVZ/Bp+7jCfH7g5gHOoeJt1QP14Viqiag+NflLpdy jzgA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkAYs9N5En8lqev9+C78lewpo5vcoNQ2jVFN9gL3oSI9DZ3iYMWTDBQd7LhPfj+8L3Ev8/x X-Received: by 10.52.179.161 with SMTP id dh1mr491814vdc.78.1408640273457; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 09:57:53 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.221.49.194 with HTTP; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 09:57:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [24.84.235.32] In-Reply-To: <20140821164210.GI3104@localhost> References: <20140820063228.GD3104@localhost> <53F489F7.9050507@wp.pl> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E127C6A03672@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> <20140821164210.GI3104@localhost> From: Tim Bray Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 09:57:33 -0700 Message-ID: To: Nico Williams Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec51a8e561dbbd70501269ff8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/Jc4Ln29ImjAQdVQ4nyafCH_21Us Cc: "Manger, James" , "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] json-text-sequence-05 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 16:57:56 -0000 --bcaec51a8e561dbbd70501269ff8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 9:42 AM, Nico Williams wrote: > The LF thing is also simple to implement. And if loggers remove > internal LFs then it's also reliable. It's as simple and reliable as > RS. > =E2=80=8BIf they have to remove internal LFs to make it reliable, then by definition it=E2=80=99s not as simple as RS, which works with any existing = JSON text, and with any existing JSON generation software, without modification.= =E2=80=8B > > Nico > -- > --=20 - Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a private message, see https://keybase.io/timbray) --bcaec51a8e561dbbd70501269ff8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
--bcaec51a8e561dbbd70501269ff8-- From nobody Thu Aug 21 10:00:12 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B8961A069C for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 10:00:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.266 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.266 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l13gFdHFSnRp for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 10:00:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a24.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D1C81A024C for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 10:00:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a24.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a24.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A68F22C806C for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 10:00:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:subject:message-id:references:mime-version:content-type :in-reply-to; s=cryptonector.com; bh=pigPvD9mAb5lZXSwQ6NNz8K+KS8 =; b=LeESLchPnDfQT+Z/IHTNe/nKJH1r/Qrn/LkmqM5aOCzWusll+SYa8rEFmUf e8Xwv4MJT4d6QzgXV1/TRry0ErlVjjkRvIa67f3e3NQuGskNEwIDg3wOqUdwN7M/ yarWIxbFKrwVBWM5KV3fEPjdKvch82sae75+Y6PVPYJA6DZ0= Received: from localhost (108-207-244-174.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net [108.207.244.174]) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a24.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 936942C806E for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 10:00:08 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 12:00:08 -0500 From: Nico Williams To: json@ietf.org Message-ID: <20140821170006.GK3104@localhost> References: <20140820063228.GD3104@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20140820063228.GD3104@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/hOM4grOQp3SJ8KcdtjAgI-Pu-MA Subject: Re: [Json] json-text-sequence-05 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 17:00:11 -0000 I'll submit a -06 tonight. I think I'm won over to the RS side, but with a caveat: I'd like to recommend that JSON texts in the sequence also be followed by LF, since that seems to make it possible to use JSON text sequences with line-oriented tools that ignore RS. Nico -- From nobody Thu Aug 21 10:08:58 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 774521A0ACF for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 10:08:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.647 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.647 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id F4G-2qkOiz0y for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 10:08:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from proper.com (Hoffman.Proper.COM [207.182.41.81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5217C1A024C for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 10:08:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.20.30.90] (50-0-66-181.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net [50.0.66.181]) (authenticated bits=0) by proper.com (8.14.9/8.14.7) with ESMTP id s7LH8WWl076402 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 21 Aug 2014 10:08:34 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: proper.com: Host 50-0-66-181.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net [50.0.66.181] claimed to be [10.20.30.90] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) From: Paul Hoffman In-Reply-To: <20140821170006.GK3104@localhost> Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 10:08:32 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20140820063228.GD3104@localhost> <20140821170006.GK3104@localhost> To: Nico Williams X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/fuYsfZ9ojpfmOWI5A27oB-Pvy-g Cc: json@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Json] json-text-sequence-05 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 17:08:46 -0000 On Aug 21, 2014, at 10:00 AM, Nico Williams = wrote: > I'll submit a -06 tonight. Thank you. > I think I'm won over to the RS side, but with a caveat: I'd like to > recommend that JSON texts in the sequence also be followed by LF, = since > that seems to make it possible to use JSON text sequences with > line-oriented tools that ignore RS. No: that is an inappropriate change at this time. The document states = that it is for log-style sequences, not line-oriented tools that are not = parsing JSON texts correctly. Please make the few changes we asked for so we can start another WG Last = Call. --Paul Hoffman= From nobody Thu Aug 21 10:23:27 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 540B31A06F0 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 10:23:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WoxBWEldYiLw for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 10:23:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vc0-f170.google.com (mail-vc0-f170.google.com [209.85.220.170]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 840921A06DD for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 10:23:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vc0-f170.google.com with SMTP id lf12so11177299vcb.29 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 10:23:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=98VGXOL2ECwGzeqFS/b28tC7ljSbjjx20wKqWjzIJMY=; b=CongLE19WKKXBmPs298FRnyjzhbIL0eGi1Y/WA/lZnECdU6AjvlmCmRZMwqiF0SYJm C7ph8xHkAVuGqCcxqjb93f3m58STlhvj0ZldCRgUEKdavqoQqYJL6AG3s6mMPtsevHT9 fuDOve4U4SIzRboDAXQJFBcT44nEZIFugbxHQpdGHNM9HAMgOXLZf761g4t+01Ehc9XL MesXW76dhuF3G2wkrJqPPnDpLB4zr678bP2eZjLOZRZ7V5nMzfYEzxWZctCyjxaVxP24 S6/aL50drGI8TMw3QGDGW5t+zhX94LEWHyCwFFrbGckGpsuguacAgsxpFiUA867oONGr cRLw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlRvQ/Ws3XGAyrBlh7VxcDnlBycsjUSQym8jVndZfBe1K974jQgiwmj+zqLo0cvVlWniC2e X-Received: by 10.220.2.136 with SMTP id 8mr42865242vcj.17.1408641793586; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 10:23:13 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.221.49.194 with HTTP; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 10:22:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [24.85.118.65] In-Reply-To: <20140821170006.GK3104@localhost> References: <20140820063228.GD3104@localhost> <20140821170006.GK3104@localhost> From: Tim Bray Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 10:22:53 -0700 Message-ID: To: Nico Williams Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c3bee2b928e0050126f993 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/HqAU0WjxzUkYjYslAh8tIGiz3UI Cc: "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] json-text-sequence-05 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 17:23:19 -0000 --001a11c3bee2b928e0050126f993 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 10:00 AM, Nico Williams wrote: > > I'd like to > recommend that JSON texts in the sequence also be followed by LF, since > that seems to make it possible to use JSON text sequences with > line-oriented tools that ignore RS. > =E2=80=8BWhat=E2=80=99s an example of such a tool? The JSON parsers I know= would report a syntax error upon encountering a floating 0x1E (one of the reasons I like it).=E2=80=8B > > Nico > -- > > _______________________________________________ > json mailing list > json@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json > --=20 - Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a private message, see https://keybase.io/timbray) --001a11c3bee2b928e0050126f993 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
--001a11c3bee2b928e0050126f993-- From nobody Thu Aug 21 11:04:35 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB5711A06FD for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 11:04:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.666 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.666 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hL-9BT9MhY4t for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 11:04:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a35.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E16261A0700 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 11:04:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a35.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a35.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E7455405B; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 11:04:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; s= cryptonector.com; bh=TDgXwQ7di2YfRjgFcDfI8IAi5Dc=; b=VfdrR+3fppv KUWEqvJ+QVZrLYVYxv1u0fiQ6x5BflosAkN5NXKHtCFo53/aEcNwF7cFqLiABeSY ndtdpv8mbLEkP7wETLC2DASVzRf4vSANj6KGpMmuevy2S/EnVHcFKNDZrfmeLv2J zBo2Tx3O5sebUWwOK6Tr8oD9KioDVp1U= Received: from localhost (108-207-244-174.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net [108.207.244.174]) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a35.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 436EC54058; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 11:04:30 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 13:04:29 -0500 From: Nico Williams To: Tim Bray Message-ID: <20140821180427.GL3104@localhost> References: <20140820063228.GD3104@localhost> <20140821170006.GK3104@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/x2z3Fb6J1sqho4LaSNgijZosHdw Cc: "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] json-text-sequence-05 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 18:04:34 -0000 On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 10:22:53AM -0700, Tim Bray wrote: > On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 10:00 AM, Nico Williams > wrote: > > I'd like to > > recommend that JSON texts in the sequence also be followed by LF, sin= ce > > that seems to make it possible to use JSON text sequences with > > line-oriented tools that ignore RS. >=20 > What=E2=80=99s an example of such a tool? The JSON parsers I know woul= d report a > syntax error upon encountering a floating 0x1E (one of the reasons I li= ke > it). I'm referring to things like grep, wc, ... From nobody Thu Aug 21 13:00:14 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2FC91A0698 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 13:00:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.169 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.169 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.668, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id W1Q4Zab2oj_x for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 13:00:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-6.cisco.com (alln-iport-6.cisco.com [173.37.142.93]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 958EF1A6FDD for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 13:00:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=2440; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1408651205; x=1409860805; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-id:content-transfer-encoding: mime-version; bh=iTUXwjTaOZ+D4SNn3kbOf3kRyGSU092F1VOOCAd5dNI=; b=MHDoc6XN6opdTEshPFvXp+xvZtA4p3sz5K5jfeyPzYe5FcJuytWJOEFm H4oaVjgS2IoQkPjhYF0ABHvQyznxaNd0E7q9z4L6BYPjA3QJWR5aI56uy LbX0Y5GdKyyoVFB7Ku/S286l1Dg//Hh5yu2Jltqxohw/FkgFetkdGhvD1 w=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AnMGAE9P9lOtJV2c/2dsb2JhbABZgw0YgRIEgnjRJwEZdxZ3hAQBAQQjEUUQAgEIGAICJgICAjAVEAIEAQ0FiEKuQ5UdF4EsjW0zB4J5NoEdAQSRJYsilQqDXmyBSIEHAQEB X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.04,375,1406592000"; d="scan'208";a="71288888" Received: from rcdn-core-5.cisco.com ([173.37.93.156]) by alln-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 21 Aug 2014 20:00:04 +0000 Received: from xhc-aln-x04.cisco.com (xhc-aln-x04.cisco.com [173.36.12.78]) by rcdn-core-5.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s7LK04Wp023573 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Thu, 21 Aug 2014 20:00:04 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com ([169.254.15.68]) by xhc-aln-x04.cisco.com ([173.36.12.78]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 15:00:04 -0500 From: "Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)" To: Nico Williams , Tim Bray Thread-Topic: [Json] json-text-sequence-05 Thread-Index: AQHPvECKmQS7buQPZEiIWMBxcMhJiJvbngkAgAAGW4CAAAuggP//u7YA Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 20:00:03 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20140820063228.GD3104@localhost> <20140821170006.GK3104@localhost> <20140821180427.GL3104@localhost> In-Reply-To: <20140821180427.GL3104@localhost> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/15.3.0.140730 x-originating-ip: [10.129.24.242] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/y-RMSX8fPYW_EyxLGUNuzyDcsmE Cc: "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] json-text-sequence-05 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 20:00:11 -0000 T24gOC8yMS8xNCwgNjowNCBQTSwgIk5pY28gV2lsbGlhbXMiIDxuaWNvQGNyeXB0b25lY3Rvci5j b20+IHdyb3RlOg0KDQo+T24gVGh1LCBBdWcgMjEsIDIwMTQgYXQgMTA6MjI6NTNBTSAtMDcwMCwg VGltIEJyYXkgd3JvdGU6DQo+PiBPbiBUaHUsIEF1ZyAyMSwgMjAxNCBhdCAxMDowMCBBTSwgTmlj byBXaWxsaWFtcyA8bmljb0BjcnlwdG9uZWN0b3IuY29tPg0KPj4gd3JvdGU6DQo+PiA+ICBJJ2Qg bGlrZSB0bw0KPj4gPiByZWNvbW1lbmQgdGhhdCBKU09OIHRleHRzIGluIHRoZSBzZXF1ZW5jZSBh bHNvIGJlIGZvbGxvd2VkIGJ5IExGLCANCj4+c2luY2UNCj4+ID4gdGhhdCBzZWVtcyB0byBtYWtl IGl0IHBvc3NpYmxlIHRvIHVzZSBKU09OIHRleHQgc2VxdWVuY2VzIHdpdGgNCj4+ID4gbGluZS1v cmllbnRlZCB0b29scyB0aGF0IGlnbm9yZSBSUy4NCj4+IA0KPj4gV2hhdOKAmXMgYW4gZXhhbXBs ZSBvZiBzdWNoIGEgdG9vbD8gIFRoZSBKU09OIHBhcnNlcnMgSSBrbm93IHdvdWxkIHJlcG9ydCAN Cj4+YQ0KPj4gc3ludGF4IGVycm9yIHVwb24gZW5jb3VudGVyaW5nIGEgZmxvYXRpbmcgMHgxRSAo b25lIG9mIHRoZSByZWFzb25zIEkgDQo+Pmxpa2UNCj4+IGl0KS4NCj4NCj5JJ20gcmVmZXJyaW5n IHRvIHRoaW5ncyBsaWtlIGdyZXAsIHdjLCAuLi4NCg0KQ2xhcmlmeWluZyBmb3IgTmljbyBoZXJl LiAgWW91J2QgbGlrZSB0byBiZSBhYmxlIHRvIGdyZXAgZm9yIGEgdmFsdWUgaW4gYSANCnN0cmVh bSwgYW5kIGhhdmUganVzdCB0aGUgbWF0Y2hpbmcgbGluZSByZXR1cm5lZCByYXRoZXIgdGhhbiB0 aGUgd2hvbGUgDQpmaWxlIChiZXR0ZXIgeWV0LCB5b3UgbWlnaHQgd2FudCB0aGUgZW50aXJlIG1h dGNoaW5nIHJlY29yZC4uLikuICBXaXRoIHdjLCANCnlvdSBtaWdodCBsaWtlIHRoZSBudW1iZXIg b2YgbGluZXMgdG8gbWVhbiBzb21ldGhpbmcgd2l0aCByZXNwZWN0IHRvIHRoZSANCm51bWJlciBv ZiByZWNvcmRzLiAgV2l0aG91dCBhIG5ld2xpbmUsIGJvdGggb2YgdGhvc2UgdXNlIGNhc2VzIGZh aWwgb3V0IG9mIA0KdGhlIGJveC4NCg0KTm90ZSwgeW91IGNhbiB1c2UgYXdrIHRvIGZpeCBhIGJ1 bmNoIG9mIHRoZXNlIHVzZSBjYXNlczoNCg0KYXdrIC12IFJTPSQnXHgxZScgJy9wYXR0ZXJuLycg ZmlsZQ0KDQp3b3VsZCByZXR1cm4gYWxsIG9mIHRoZSByZWNvcmRzIG1hdGNoaW5nIHBhdHRlcm4g aW4gZmlsZSwgYW5kOg0KDQphd2sgLXYgUlM9JCdceDFlJyAnRU5Ee3ByaW50IE5SLTF9JyBmaWxl DQoNCndvdWxkIHByaW50IHRoZSBudW1iZXIgb2YgcmVjb3Jkcy4gIE5vdGU6IGF3ayB1c2VzIHdo YXRldmVyIHN0cmluZyBvciANCnJlZ2V4IGlzIGluIFJTIGFzIHRoZSByZWNvcmQgKnNlcGFyYXRv ciosIG5vdCBhcyBhIHJlY29yZCBzdGFydCBvciBlbmQsIA0Kd2hpY2ggaXMgd2h5IHlvdSBoYXZl IHRvIHN1YnRyYWN0IG9uZS4gIEZ1cnRoZXIgbm90ZTogaXQncyBhbXVzaW5nIHRoYXQgDQpzZXR0 aW5nIFJTPShBU0NJSSBSUykgaXMgc28gc3ludGFjdGljYWxseSBkaWZmaWN1bHQuDQoNClNpbmNl IEpTT04tdGV4dCBpbmNsdWRlcyB3cyBpbiA3MTU5LCB5b3UgTUFZIGFscmVhZHkgaW5jbHVkZSBh IGxpbmVmZWVkIA0KYWZ0ZXIgZWFjaCByZWNvcmQgd2l0aCB0aGUgLTA1IGRyYWZ0LiAgV2UgY291 bGQgcG90ZW50aWFsbHkgY2hvb3NlIHRvIGdpdmUgDQppbXBsZW1lbnRhdGlvbiBhZHZpY2Ugd2l0 aG91dCBjaGFuZ2luZyBhbnkgb2YgdGhlIG5vcm1hdGl2ZSB0ZXh0Lg0KDQotLSANCkpvZSBIaWxk ZWJyYW5kDQoNCg0KDQo= From nobody Thu Aug 21 13:46:21 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E25611A8A05 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 13:46:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.666 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.666 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ioIihu4_aq7x for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 13:46:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a54.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3989E1A70E1 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 13:46:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a54.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a54.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E12A74012D68E; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 13:46:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to; s=cryptonector.com; bh=EJIsBpB4JfU9rt NolH2hve2p3xk=; b=rQiBL2nFOuoGBfxV15VlRXArLNQ+7pRR10seSey2qOmzBQ +6acG8stICdtcTrNOkQW3zUkTYXTiBXc+LKTVr0pKJ6t4TZiY3kOC+8j9k4OLEhG JRbGI80baDTDlEL7oyPkO7AEpmC+3Bq7XiVb7BU6iZnjHm2gFG70bzqKh0A2o= Received: from localhost (108-207-244-174.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net [108.207.244.174]) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a54.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 86139400F8A2A; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 13:46:18 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 15:46:18 -0500 From: Nico Williams To: "Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)" Message-ID: <20140821204616.GV3104@localhost> References: <20140820063228.GD3104@localhost> <20140821170006.GK3104@localhost> <20140821180427.GL3104@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/ZA_fQRu5JaPQwUBuuHPuM0X3VzU Cc: Tim Bray , "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] json-text-sequence-05 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 20:46:20 -0000 On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 08:00:03PM +0000, Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr) wrote: > On 8/21/14, 6:04 PM, "Nico Williams" wrote: > >I'm referring to things like grep, wc, ... > > Clarifying for Nico here. You'd like to be able to grep for a value in a > [...] Thanks :) Yes, that's it. > Note, you can use awk to fix a bunch of these use cases: > > awk -v RS=$'\x1e' '/pattern/' file Yes, this is true. > [...]. Further note: it's amusing that > setting RS=(ASCII RS) is so syntactically difficult. It is. It'd be nice to have a backslash escape for it. > Since JSON-text includes ws in 7159, you MAY already include a linefeed > after each record with the -05 draft. We could potentially choose to give > implementation advice without changing any of the normative text. Indeed, I can. It costs nothing to emit an extra LF, but it does help. I'd not make a requirement, of course, but I'd recommend it. Nico -- From nobody Thu Aug 21 15:51:12 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1049D1A2119 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 15:51:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.647 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.647 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zYo6683M6qlb for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 15:51:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from proper.com (Hoffman.Proper.COM [207.182.41.81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 04D301A01D5 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 15:51:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.20.30.90] (50-0-66-181.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net [50.0.66.181]) (authenticated bits=0) by proper.com (8.14.9/8.14.7) with ESMTP id s7LMp5ZY001396 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 21 Aug 2014 15:51:07 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: proper.com: Host 50-0-66-181.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net [50.0.66.181] claimed to be [10.20.30.90] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) From: Paul Hoffman In-Reply-To: <20140821204616.GV3104@localhost> Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 15:51:05 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20140820063228.GD3104@localhost> <20140821170006.GK3104@localhost> <20140821180427.GL3104@localhost> <20140821204616.GV3104@localhost> To: Nico Williams X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/_bNgYEu7QuwDDNdQXvqRY1c5ONk Cc: "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] json-text-sequence-05 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 22:51:11 -0000 On Aug 21, 2014, at 1:46 PM, Nico Williams = wrote: > On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 08:00:03PM +0000, Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr) = wrote: >> Since JSON-text includes ws in 7159, you MAY already include a = linefeed=20 >> after each record with the -05 draft. We could potentially choose to = give=20 >> implementation advice without changing any of the normative text. >=20 > Indeed, I can. It costs nothing to emit an extra LF, but it does = help. > I'd not make a requirement, of course, but I'd recommend it. Please be careful with your wording. This is not an "extra" LF if there = is no LF there already. I believe you are talking about recommending = (not requiring) that every JSON-text have a LF character as the last = character in the second ws of "ws value ws", yes? However, if the first = ws has a LF, or if the second ws has a LF that is not the last one, for = any of the JSON-texts in the sequence, it kind of scorches any advantage = of your suggestion. So, if you really mean "all initial ws's should have = no LF, and all terminal ws's should have exactly one LF, and it should = be at the end", you need to say that instead. As you tell, I am skeptical that this recommendation is going to help = your use case unless the recommendation is complicated. --Paul Hoffman= From nobody Thu Aug 21 17:13:25 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DA741A0AE0 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 17:13:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AT5bz-iEfSlF for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 17:13:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vc0-f174.google.com (mail-vc0-f174.google.com [209.85.220.174]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B5FB11A020B for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 17:13:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vc0-f174.google.com with SMTP id la4so11434253vcb.5 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 17:13:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=8MuuMKK681EBbFPcyuI/F54vxDMRr1IeyWa+TNiNj4M=; b=iEExhjRRRqwfm/LAUuqMwO3N9rhUzQbJ3uLQ/YaSGLMp+reLa2d3oaCo+tZ0HXp0W9 WWZLDcZq8Fd+YGUX96xUAVQQ43wAOusYUjCpMd31v0PDqyi6AIW+IpCEpMiZvYN6X9eX oHqDwiMIAhmfpdwHfhHgawMPG/NL7TFX2TCwv4LiJugFbGdqysvrgXrCcDcNqEvQAJcB UFI7wT29fACz6ef59NWLVaJjj3z0QvdLuQC8eYSoMmVE1V1WRL5C+PQUNxJAliGcX/0i xe2nm2vU+pQcd+nqyCRPx6+yUdtYMIdTmJYtV83339QUVn5Zq5m+Ws6QkICaMr0D4Um/ uIaw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQma4Yw4hA5bcAWZETOXSpUJClStonuCakEOJJRkUvZ/OwQra+ssT5KAlJ+I9Wj22I/gSgp+ X-Received: by 10.52.69.172 with SMTP id f12mr1203380vdu.9.1408666398776; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 17:13:18 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.221.49.194 with HTTP; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 17:12:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [24.85.118.65] In-Reply-To: References: <20140820063228.GD3104@localhost> <20140821170006.GK3104@localhost> <20140821180427.GL3104@localhost> From: Tim Bray Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 17:12:58 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf307cffd64e74f705012cb444 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/9YZLF91_sXMeBw6zH8mII789iVc Cc: Nico Williams , "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] json-text-sequence-05 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 00:13:23 -0000 --20cf307cffd64e74f705012cb444 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You know, much and all as I am an old command-line hound and use them all the time for Apache logs, the notion of running that kind of stuff over JSON makes me nervous, and the supposition that sticking a \n after the end of a JSON-text is going to prevent all the things that could go wrong... no. I=E2=80=99m just not sure you can have your JSON cake and eat your command-line goodies too. But if people are convinced that that \n will actually increase the usefulness, I guess it=E2=80=99s not actively harmful= . =E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 1:00 PM, Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr) < jhildebr@cisco.com> wrote: > On 8/21/14, 6:04 PM, "Nico Williams" wrote: > > >On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 10:22:53AM -0700, Tim Bray wrote: > >> On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 10:00 AM, Nico Williams > >> wrote: > >> > I'd like to > >> > recommend that JSON texts in the sequence also be followed by LF, > >>since > >> > that seems to make it possible to use JSON text sequences with > >> > line-oriented tools that ignore RS. > >> > >> What=E2=80=99s an example of such a tool? The JSON parsers I know wou= ld report > >>a > >> syntax error upon encountering a floating 0x1E (one of the reasons I > >>like > >> it). > > > >I'm referring to things like grep, wc, ... > > Clarifying for Nico here. You'd like to be able to grep for a value in a > stream, and have just the matching line returned rather than the whole > file (better yet, you might want the entire matching record...). With wc= , > you might like the number of lines to mean something with respect to the > number of records. Without a newline, both of those use cases fail out o= f > the box. > > Note, you can use awk to fix a bunch of these use cases: > > awk -v RS=3D$'\x1e' '/pattern/' file > > would return all of the records matching pattern in file, and: > > awk -v RS=3D$'\x1e' 'END{print NR-1}' file > > would print the number of records. Note: awk uses whatever string or > regex is in RS as the record *separator*, not as a record start or end, > which is why you have to subtract one. Further note: it's amusing that > setting RS=3D(ASCII RS) is so syntactically difficult. > > Since JSON-text includes ws in 7159, you MAY already include a linefeed > after each record with the -05 draft. We could potentially choose to giv= e > implementation advice without changing any of the normative text. > > -- > Joe Hildebrand > > > > --=20 - Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a private message, see https://keybase.io/timbray) --20cf307cffd64e74f705012cb444 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
You= know, much and all as I am an old command-line hound and use them all the = time for Apache logs, the notion of running that kind of stuff over JSON ma= kes me nervous, and the supposition that sticking a \n after the end of a J= SON-text is going to prevent all the things that could go wrong... no. =C2= =A0I=E2=80=99m just not sure you can have your JSON cake and eat your comma= nd-line goodies too. =C2=A0But if people are convinced that that \n will ac= tually increase the usefulness, I guess it=E2=80=99s not actively harmful.<= /div>



=E2=80=8B=E2=80=8B



=
On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 1:00 PM, Joe Hildebrand = (jhildebr) <jhildebr@cisco.com> wrote:
On 8= /21/14, 6:04 PM, "Nico Williams" <nico@cryptonector.com> wrote:

>On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 10:22:53AM -0700, Tim Bray wrote:
>> On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 10:00 AM, Nico Williams <nico@cryptonector.com>
>> wrote:
>> >=C2=A0 I'd like to
>> > recommend that JSON texts in the sequence also be followed by= LF,
>>since
>> > that seems to make it possible to use JSON text sequences wit= h
>> > line-oriented tools that ignore RS.
>>
>> What=E2=80=99s an example of such a tool?=C2=A0 The JSON parsers I= know would report
>>a
>> syntax error upon encountering a floating 0x1E (one of the reasons= I
>>like
>> it).
>
>I'm referring to things like grep, wc, ...

Clarifying for Nico here.=C2=A0 You'd like to be able to gr= ep for a value in a
stream, and have just the matching line returned rather than the whole
file (better yet, you might want the entire matching record...).=C2=A0 With= wc,
you might like the number of lines to mean something with respect to the number of records.=C2=A0 Without a newline, both of those use cases fail ou= t of
the box.

Note, you can use awk to fix a bunch of these use cases:

awk -v RS=3D$'\x1e' '/pattern/' file

would return all of the records matching pattern in file, and:

awk -v RS=3D$'\x1e' 'END{print NR-1}' file

would print the number of records.=C2=A0 Note: awk uses whatever string or<= br> regex is in RS as the record *separator*, not as a record start or end,
which is why you have to subtract one.=C2=A0 Further note: it's amusing= that
setting RS=3D(ASCII RS) is so syntactically difficult.

Since JSON-text includes ws in 7159, you MAY already include a linefeed
after each record with the -05 draft.=C2=A0 We could potentially choose to = give
implementation advice without changing any of the normative text.

--
Joe Hildebrand






--
- Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a priv= ate message, see h= ttps://keybase.io/timbray)
--20cf307cffd64e74f705012cb444-- From nobody Thu Aug 21 19:43:43 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A3851A0A94 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 19:43:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.202 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.202 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_AU=0.377, HOST_EQ_AU=0.327, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RELAY_IS_203=0.994] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8hNmwRwjFsaR for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 19:43:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ipxavo.tcif.telstra.com.au (ipxavo.tcif.telstra.com.au [203.35.135.200]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C26F1A6FBE for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 19:43:38 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.04,377,1406556000"; d="scan'208";a="219533835" Received: from unknown (HELO ipcavi.tcif.telstra.com.au) ([10.97.217.200]) by ipoavi.tcif.telstra.com.au with ESMTP; 22 Aug 2014 12:35:01 +1000 X-IronPort-AV: E=McAfee;i="5600,1067,7537"; a="298065908" Received: from wsmsg3755.srv.dir.telstra.com ([172.49.40.196]) by ipcavi.tcif.telstra.com.au with ESMTP; 22 Aug 2014 12:43:36 +1000 Received: from WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com ([172.49.40.159]) by WSMSG3755.srv.dir.telstra.com ([172.49.40.196]) with mapi; Fri, 22 Aug 2014 12:43:36 +1000 From: "Manger, James" To: Tim Bray , "Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)" Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 12:43:35 +1000 Thread-Topic: [Json] json-text-sequence-05 Thread-Index: Ac+9negKQKGlAowmQkeklKBbTq/uoQAAChQQ Message-ID: <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E127C6A04036@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> References: <20140820063228.GD3104@localhost> <20140821170006.GK3104@localhost> <20140821180427.GL3104@localhost> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US, en-AU Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US, en-AU Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/CisN0JoDPyl1kSzGA5ZNisyCOCQ Cc: Nico Williams , "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] json-text-sequence-05 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 02:43:42 -0000 VGhlIFJTLXZlcnNpb24gb2YgSlNPTiBUZXh0IFNlcXVlbmNlcyBtYXkgYXMgd2VsbCByZW1vdmUg YWxsIG1lbnRpb24gb2YgSlNPTi4NClRoZSBmb3JtYXQgaXMgc2ltcGx5Og0KICAqICggUlMgYmxv YiApDQp3aGVyZSBibG9iIGlzIGFueXRoaW5nIHRoYXQgZG9lc27igJl0IGNvbnRhaW4gYW4gUlMg Ynl0ZS9jaGFyYWN0ZXIuDQoNCkl0IGlzIG5pY2UgYW5kIHNpbXBsZS4NCkl0IGlzIG5vdCAidGV4 dCIgKGJlY2F1c2UgaXQgaXNuJ3QgZWFzeSB0byB3b3JrIHdpdGggaW4gYWxsIG91ciB0ZXh0IHRv b2xzKS4NCllvdSB3aWxsIGFsd2F5cyBuZWVkIGEgbmV3IFJTLWF3YXJlIGV4cGxpY2l0IHRvb2wv c3RlcCB0byBjb252ZXJ0IHRvIGFuZCBmcm9tIHRoZSBSUy1wcmVmaXhlZCBmb3JtYXQuDQoNCkl0 IGhhcyBubyBjb25uZWN0aW9uIHRvIGEgSlNPTi1iYXNlZCBlY29zeXN0ZW0uDQpJdCBpcyBub3Qg YSAiY293IHBhdGggdG8gcGF2ZSI7IG5vIG9uZSBpcyB1c2luZyBSUyBsaWtlIHRoaXMuDQoNCg0K T24gdGhlIG90aGVyIGhhbmQsIGxvZ2dpbmcgSlNPTiBvYmplY3RzIG9uZSBwZXIgbGluZSBpcyBh biBvYnZpb3VzIGFwcHJvYWNoLiBBIGJ1bmNoIG9mIHN5c3RlbSBoYXZlIGRvbmUgdGhhdC4gU3Vj aCBhIHN5bnRheCBpcyBzdGlsbCB1bmFtYmlndW91cyBldmVuIGlmIHRoZSBKU09OIG9iamVjdHMg YXJlIHByZXR0eS1wcmludGVkIChoYXZlIG5ld2xpbmVzIGluc2lkZSB0aGUgb2JqZWN0cykuIEl0 IGlzIHN0aWxsIHVuYW1iaWd1b3VzIGZvciBhbnkgSlNPTiB2YWx1ZXMgKG5vdCBqdXN0IG9iamVj dHMpIGlmIHlvdSBhZGQgYW4gZWFzeSBjb25zdHJhaW50IHN1Y2ggYXMgaGF2aW5nIGEgdHJhaWxp bmcgbmV3bGluZS4gSWYgdG9vbHMgdGFrZSB0aGUgZXh0cmEgZWZmb3J0IHRvIHN1cHBvcnQgdGhp cyAoaW5zdGVhZCBvZiBhc3N1bWluZyBvbmUtb2JqZWN0LXBlci1saW5lKSBiZWNhdXNlIGl0IGlz IGEgc3BlYyB0aGVuIHdlIGNhbiBoYXZlIG91ciBKU09OIGNha2UgYW5kIGVhdCBvdXIgY29tbWFu ZC1saW5lIGdvb2RpZXMgYXMgd2VsbC4gDQoNClAuUy4gVGhlIFJTLXZlcnNpb24gc2hvdWxkIGJl ICooUlMgSlNPTi10ZXh0KSwgbm90ICooMSpSUyBKU09OLXRleHQpLiANCg0KLS0NCkphbWVzIE1h bmdlcg0KDQoNCkZyb206IGpzb24gW21haWx0bzpqc29uLWJvdW5jZXNAaWV0Zi5vcmddIE9uIEJl aGFsZiBPZiBUaW0gQnJheQ0KU2VudDogRnJpZGF5LCAyMiBBdWd1c3QgMjAxNCAxMDoxMyBBTQ0K DQpZb3Uga25vdywgbXVjaCBhbmQgYWxsIGFzIEkgYW0gYW4gb2xkIGNvbW1hbmQtbGluZSBob3Vu ZCBhbmQgdXNlIHRoZW0gYWxsIHRoZSB0aW1lIGZvciBBcGFjaGUgbG9ncywgdGhlIG5vdGlvbiBv ZiBydW5uaW5nIHRoYXQga2luZCBvZiBzdHVmZiBvdmVyIEpTT04gbWFrZXMgbWUgbmVydm91cywg YW5kIHRoZSBzdXBwb3NpdGlvbiB0aGF0IHN0aWNraW5nIGEgXG4gYWZ0ZXIgdGhlIGVuZCBvZiBh IEpTT04tdGV4dCBpcyBnb2luZyB0byBwcmV2ZW50IGFsbCB0aGUgdGhpbmdzIHRoYXQgY291bGQg Z28gd3JvbmcuLi4gbm8uIMKgSeKAmW0ganVzdCBub3Qgc3VyZSB5b3UgY2FuIGhhdmUgeW91ciBK U09OIGNha2UgYW5kIGVhdCB5b3VyIGNvbW1hbmQtbGluZSBnb29kaWVzIHRvby4gwqBCdXQgaWYg cGVvcGxlIGFyZSBjb252aW5jZWQgdGhhdCB0aGF0IFxuIHdpbGwgYWN0dWFsbHkgaW5jcmVhc2Ug dGhlIHVzZWZ1bG5lc3MsIEkgZ3Vlc3MgaXTigJlzIG5vdCBhY3RpdmVseSBoYXJtZnVsLg0KDQo= From nobody Thu Aug 21 23:10:49 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E6761A0077 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 23:10:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.044 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.044 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uDNR4rVBnIox for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 23:10:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a104.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1D9F1A000B for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 23:10:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a104.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a104.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1384520047D32 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 23:10:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s= cryptonector.com; bh=oAnPLYjBhV10NpEfytKqvP7gUcY=; b=axSCs5BnUSc n3Um52PcmiJxUlRXsUSGnMlMhq3XUIZUg2VyeqGXMuIULj0CpHFDisM3CVleTiQ4 Ib2l9ZvKMOPrM44uttAvjNF1ETultfDHPKG9bRARi9t2rwdcY4RIhIjFK+CqP4UF qufZgUrtgyZScxHaUwls+NpTkWbM/cR0= Received: from mail-wg0-f42.google.com (mail-wg0-f42.google.com [74.125.82.42]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a104.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id BBF9120047D12 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 23:10:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wg0-f42.google.com with SMTP id l18so9933341wgh.25 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 23:10:26 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.179.73 with SMTP id de9mr3074155wjc.87.1408687826636; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 23:10:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.231.131 with HTTP; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 23:10:26 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E127C6A04036@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> References: <20140820063228.GD3104@localhost> <20140821170006.GK3104@localhost> <20140821180427.GL3104@localhost> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E127C6A04036@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 01:10:26 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: "Manger, James" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/LJ3PWjxxETl4SryanyVFftnd754 Cc: Tim Bray , "Joe Hildebrand \(jhildebr\)" , "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] json-text-sequence-05 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 06:10:44 -0000 On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 9:43 PM, Manger, James wrote: > The RS-version of JSON Text Sequences may as well remove all mention of J= SON. > The format is simply: > * ( RS blob ) > where blob is anything that doesn=E2=80=99t contain an RS byte/character. Yes, that's true. But this is a data format where we're defining the blob as a JSON text :) > It is nice and simple. Yes, it is. I forget who first suggested RS (searching the archives). > It is not "text" (because it isn't easy to work with in all our text tool= s). Some text tools seem to do "the right thing" as to the RS. > You will always need a new RS-aware explicit tool/step to convert to and = from the RS-prefixed format. Generally, yes. > It has no connection to a JSON-based ecosystem. I disagree. > It is not a "cow path to pave"; no one is using RS like this. No one is using RS, most likely. > On the other hand, logging JSON objects one per line is an obvious approa= ch. A bunch of system have done that. Such a syntax is still unambiguous ev= en if the JSON objects are pretty-printed (have newlines inside the objects= ). It is still unambiguous for any JSON values (not just objects) if you ad= d an easy constraint such as having a trailing newline. If tools take the e= xtra effort to support this (instead of assuming one-object-per-line) becau= se it is a spec then we can have our JSON cake and eat our command-line goo= dies as well. Yes. > P.S. The RS-version should be *(RS JSON-text), not *(1*RS JSON-text). If the application is a log application then it has to be something like *(RS (JSON-text / invalid-JSON-text)). I'm not up for writing a syntax for invalid JSON texts though! :) This is why I settled for *(1*RS JSON-text), but yes, you're right: encoders MUST emit a single RS per-text, and parsers SHOULD discard empty/invalid texts. How would one express that in ABNF? Nico -- From nobody Thu Aug 21 23:23:07 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D47F1A008F; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 23:23:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FnZ1ReQojL6N; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 23:23:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1A011A0099; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 23:23:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 5.6.2.p5 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20140822062303.9198.55186.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 23:23:03 -0700 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/lDChK7v-6TU37JPE4iGSzMOxGbk Cc: json@ietf.org Subject: [Json] I-D Action: draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-06.txt X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 06:23:05 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the JavaScript Object Notation Working Group of the IETF. Title : JavaScript Object Notation (JSON) Text Sequences Author : Nicolas Williams Filename : draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-06.txt Pages : 9 Date : 2014-08-21 Abstract: This document describes the JSON text sequence format and associated media type. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-json-text-sequence/ There's also a htmlized version available at: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-06 A diff from the previous version is available at: http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-06 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Thu Aug 21 23:32:23 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F28211A00A3 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 23:32:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.666 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.666 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Y1W93cjswQpf for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 23:32:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a54.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 153CD1A00BF for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 23:32:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a54.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a54.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF3BD4012D694 for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 23:32:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:subject:message-id:mime-version:content-type; s= cryptonector.com; bh=6PLldPVJeZtd0cjrcMa5v9t19KI=; b=WOBVaml8Erd eojqdz7DGItdesqNO8YUYVLEsMgb6RwR7Z2zJ7Yl+GTxRDewr4dzF/EaYD7sRY3P MdIn4/OYO4Dngink7xXrwaasA7aZ0i3WO5Us1QTWcBsbnQQ8CH93HaCANH5blZDS jpCsXrvyaHI84VR+fMs8aEbL9MAgYgks= Received: from localhost (108-207-244-174.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net [108.207.244.174]) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a54.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 6D9AF4012D68C for ; Thu, 21 Aug 2014 23:32:18 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 01:32:17 -0500 From: Nico Williams To: json@ietf.org Message-ID: <20140822063216.GA5909@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/hXYgGWtbRe-qu6Du1togIxOs5GE Subject: [Json] json-text-sequence-06 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 06:32:20 -0000 URL: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-06.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-json-text-sequence/ Htmlized: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-06 Diff: http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-06 Changes: - removed section 1.1 - defined RS - made RS a MUST (there was no sense in it being a SHOULD, right?) - added a note about the utility of (with no recommendation to) emitting an LF at the end of each JSON text - added an acknowledgement of Carsten's idea of using a non-ws ASCII control character as the separator. The only changes I can think of wanting to make are: - add a reference for RS - tweak the ABNF: *(1*RS JSON-text) or *(RS JSON-text) or something like *(RS (JSON-text / invalid-JSON-text)) (without defining invalid-JSON-text) ? Nico -- From nobody Fri Aug 22 10:12:57 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA95C1A0693 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2014 10:12:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.417 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.417 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HELO_EQ_PL=1.135, HOST_EQ_PL=1.95, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.668, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hr3dMq3kspGA for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2014 10:12:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx3.wp.pl (mx3.wp.pl [212.77.101.9]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 732A81A0669 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2014 10:12:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (wp-smtpd smtp.wp.pl 11220 invoked from network); 22 Aug 2014 19:12:49 +0200 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=wp.pl; s=1024a; t=1408727569; bh=YWFaHR8yQTpaYkLDdNHXI8vC9sM3FDg2btb0PsGz2B4=; h=From:To:CC:Subject; b=UJja1mQKawHIv+dv7QWxR/xGgGkpTDVmMdqGUbStMaYaNsr/mFIDFEepgetYO+vGW 6qgorNF7N0KpmXaH2KCa0u6ODKpgS8KPbmwnaLBlKPNo+yjKjuW7GdAjK81Q4qiasm T/y7vaW9JzGx79Fpj4OzY/GjKgbNtMKwtFLYyUfo= Received: from ip-89-161-31-22.tel.tkb.net.pl (HELO [192.168.0.5]) (ddooss@[89.161.31.22]) (envelope-sender ) by smtp.wp.pl (WP-SMTPD) with SMTP for ; 22 Aug 2014 19:12:49 +0200 Message-ID: <53F77A11.20804@wp.pl> Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 19:12:49 +0200 From: Dominik Tomaszuk User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nico Williams References: <20140822063216.GA5909@localhost> In-Reply-To: <20140822063216.GA5909@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-WP-AV: skaner antywirusowy poczty Wirtualnej Polski S. A. X-WP-SPAM: NO 0000000 [oRNE] Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/0EoTjQGt0SuPEd_S0zHnBfsusDY Cc: json@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Json] json-text-sequence-06 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 17:12:55 -0000 On Fri, 22 Aug 2014 01:32:17 -0500, Nico Williams wrote: > URL: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-06.txt > Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-json-text-sequence/ > Htmlized: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-06 > Diff: http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-06 > > Changes: > > - removed section 1.1 > - defined RS > - made RS a MUST (there was no sense in it being a SHOULD, right?) > - added a note about the utility of (with no recommendation to) > emitting an LF at the end of each JSON text > - added an acknowledgement of Carsten's idea of using a non-ws ASCII > control character as the separator. > > The only changes I can think of wanting to make are: > > - add a reference for RS > > - tweak the ABNF: *(1*RS JSON-text) or *(RS JSON-text) or something > like *(RS (JSON-text / invalid-JSON-text)) (without defining > invalid-JSON-text) ? > > Nico > I propose to avoid all delimiters from C0. This would allow the use of the hierarchical levels, where US is the lowest level and FS is the highest level. My proposal in ABNF: JSON-sequence = *(sep JSON-text) sep = *( %x1C / ; File Separator %x1D / ; Group Separator %x1E / ; Record Separator %x1F ) ; Unit Separator Dominik Tomaszuk Research Fellow University of Bialystok Poland From nobody Fri Aug 22 10:34:21 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99A871A06EB for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2014 10:34:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.647 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.647 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EvxXoaqM-Na9 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2014 10:34:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from proper.com (Hoffman.Proper.COM [207.182.41.81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0ACED1A06CC for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2014 10:34:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.20.30.90] (50-0-66-181.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net [50.0.66.181]) (authenticated bits=0) by proper.com (8.14.9/8.14.7) with ESMTP id s7MHYFVh039216 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2014 10:34:17 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: proper.com: Host 50-0-66-181.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net [50.0.66.181] claimed to be [10.20.30.90] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) From: Paul Hoffman In-Reply-To: <20140822063216.GA5909@localhost> Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 10:34:14 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20140822063216.GA5909@localhost> To: IETF JSON WG X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/mbpfhcO5HrWP9lbBXPpa45Ou6jo Subject: [Json] Second WG Last Call for json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 17:34:19 -0000 Greetings again. The first WG Last Call ended up with no consensus about = whether the document was useful as it stood. Nico has made a few rounds = of changes, and so I'd like to ask folks to read it again, fresh. Please respond on the list whether the technical proposal in the new = document could be useful in meeting the use cases and scenarios = described in the document. Note that this is *not* a request for = comments about whether or not you liked the old proposal better; it is a = request about the current document. The current document: URL: = http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-06.txt Status: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-json-text-sequence/ Htmlized: = http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-06 Diff: = http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-json-text-sequence-06 --Paul Hoffman= From nobody Fri Aug 22 13:32:14 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53CAE1A6F4A for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2014 13:32:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id U9954QwfB8IK for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2014 13:32:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vc0-f180.google.com (mail-vc0-f180.google.com [209.85.220.180]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DE4E31A6F73 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2014 13:32:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vc0-f180.google.com with SMTP id ij19so12978949vcb.11 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2014 13:32:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=zdJxWJK3BLTNJ4y7xXCiq7wugrt3VOZe5g+J6bqPdho=; b=JWTfAk1SSkZZG9my/57DkQyTOWlzQ8C2+GrhQLBGNNUM9Hsl2x4xZAdmiDQzz0xdxX 1A7Fl6VRjsNFrt2LYN5hElqAiXZfAfhHS62qHWJIO+uJKY0Ch28lGvWM1KkIWnLJUlby /1pKJBaOZXQKKbubOR+myM1UFZTCeoJtD7CyGnJokgaDWXngdORk8kKjQm/Nyu1hvD36 BLSg/MDvvPPu5Ufd/IYBJPooN/V151purdAV7cw1BEX1UB0vyIS4qZnAYr3p5pNdbVyj 9ZgOa8D5XFkTUqm/IV2RVgSwBDJIyrmfbxSKd218uiohR5oJh0JLYVPbi/INQBzFVotx W41A== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkDleWnvTJaqEfrQJnVQE1/vcDlgFv/iYjnBUISveLz1zhw5NbJtEOOw0ShmplbVSXLnevO X-Received: by 10.220.194.130 with SMTP id dy2mr174561vcb.47.1408739520014; Fri, 22 Aug 2014 13:32:00 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.221.49.194 with HTTP; Fri, 22 Aug 2014 13:31:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [24.84.235.32] In-Reply-To: <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E127C6A04036@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> References: <20140820063228.GD3104@localhost> <20140821170006.GK3104@localhost> <20140821180427.GL3104@localhost> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E127C6A04036@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> From: Tim Bray Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 13:31:39 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Manger, James" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e0158a94eac038005013dbae4 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/jPzW3ZoDqwCPdTOyGgNTPjJh7V0 Cc: Nico Williams , "Joe Hildebrand \(jhildebr\)" , "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] json-text-sequence-05 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 20:32:12 -0000 --089e0158a94eac038005013dbae4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 7:43 PM, Manger, James < James.H.Manger@team.telstra.com> wrote: > The RS-version of JSON Text Sequences may as well remove all mention of > JSON. > The format is simply: > * ( RS blob ) > where blob is anything that doesn=E2=80=99t contain an RS byte/character. > The other example I can think of such a format is: XML. Hmmmmmmmm > > It is nice and simple. > It is not "text" (because it isn't easy to work with in all our text > tools). > You will always need a new RS-aware explicit tool/step to convert to and > from the RS-prefixed format. > > It has no connection to a JSON-based ecosystem. > It is not a "cow path to pave"; no one is using RS like this. > > > On the other hand, logging JSON objects one per line is an obvious > approach. A bunch of system have done that. Such a syntax is still > unambiguous even if the JSON objects are pretty-printed (have newlines > inside the objects). It is still unambiguous for any JSON values (not jus= t > objects) if you add an easy constraint such as having a trailing newline. > If tools take the extra effort to support this (instead of assuming > one-object-per-line) because it is a spec then we can have our JSON cake > and eat our command-line goodies as well. > > P.S. The RS-version should be *(RS JSON-text), not *(1*RS JSON-text). > > -- > James Manger > > > From: json [mailto:json-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Tim Bray > Sent: Friday, 22 August 2014 10:13 AM > > You know, much and all as I am an old command-line hound and use them all > the time for Apache logs, the notion of running that kind of stuff over > JSON makes me nervous, and the supposition that sticking a \n after the e= nd > of a JSON-text is going to prevent all the things that could go wrong... > no. I=E2=80=99m just not sure you can have your JSON cake and eat your > command-line goodies too. But if people are convinced that that \n will > actually increase the usefulness, I guess it=E2=80=99s not actively harmf= ul. > > --=20 - Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a private message, see https://keybase.io/timbray) --089e0158a94eac038005013dbae4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On = Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 7:43 PM, Manger, James <James.H.Mange= r@team.telstra.com> wrote:
The RS-version of JSON Text Sequences may as well remove all ment= ion of JSON.
The format is simply:
=C2=A0 * ( RS blob )
where blob is anything that doesn=E2=80=99t contain an RS byte/character.

The other example I can think of such a format is: XML. =C2= =A0Hmmmmmmmm


=C2=A0

It is nice and simple.
It is not "text" (because it isn't easy to work with in all o= ur text tools).
You will always need a new RS-aware explicit tool/step to convert to and fr= om the RS-prefixed format.

It has no connection to a JSON-based ecosystem.
It is not a "cow path to pave"; no one is using RS like this.


On the other hand, logging JSON objects one per line is an obvious approach= . A bunch of system have done that. Such a syntax is still unambiguous even= if the JSON objects are pretty-printed (have newlines inside the objects).= It is still unambiguous for any JSON values (not just objects) if you add = an easy constraint such as having a trailing newline. If tools take the ext= ra effort to support this (instead of assuming one-object-per-line) because= it is a spec then we can have our JSON cake and eat our command-line goodi= es as well.

P.S. The RS-version should be *(RS JSON-text), not *(1*RS JSON-text).

--
James Manger


From: json [mailto:json-bounces@ie= tf.org] On Behalf Of Tim Bray
Sent: Friday, 22 August 2014 10:13 AM

You know, much and all as I am an old command-line hound and use them all t= he time for Apache logs, the notion of running that kind of stuff over JSON= makes me nervous, and the supposition that sticking a \n after the end of = a JSON-text is going to prevent all the things that could go wrong... no. = =C2=A0I=E2=80=99m just not sure you can have your JSON cake and eat your co= mmand-line goodies too. =C2=A0But if people are convinced that that \n will= actually increase the usefulness, I guess it=E2=80=99s not actively harmfu= l.




--
=
- Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a privat= e message, see htt= ps://keybase.io/timbray)
--089e0158a94eac038005013dbae4-- From nobody Fri Aug 22 13:44:09 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BC151A0AF1 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2014 13:44:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.666 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.666 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4etr1b--F71J for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2014 13:44:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a55.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8F891A06FD for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2014 13:44:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a55.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a55.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F7181638; Fri, 22 Aug 2014 13:44:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; s= cryptonector.com; bh=l+cC0TPypL6wlf2uszxvZjbSpnk=; b=iTUqTsAKBMT v1nzxTjCJEiU2C9uUccyYgR63H/pW9k/eHgkco6FtkGPMyFdMtOfcrFJS7cuFAQp dvKaUWkIzoLQkXvQlgAqSq/azGgtOPbPvincDwlizVuEwOAaH+zsYTDOM1sWDqAs tek9Naqt8h4sHIHCdUgV7u/LURrkmYx8= Received: from localhost (108-207-244-174.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net [108.207.244.174]) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a55.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 1D4821608; Fri, 22 Aug 2014 13:44:05 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 15:43:49 -0500 From: Nico Williams To: Tim Bray Message-ID: <20140822204347.GE5909@localhost> References: <20140820063228.GD3104@localhost> <20140821170006.GK3104@localhost> <20140821180427.GL3104@localhost> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E127C6A04036@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/RwXPeX9P9KWHJyB98AKk62xKn4s Cc: "Manger, James" , "Joe Hildebrand \(jhildebr\)" , "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] json-text-sequence-05 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 20:44:06 -0000 On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 01:31:39PM -0700, Tim Bray wrote: > On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 7:43 PM, Manger, James < > James.H.Manger@team.telstra.com> wrote: > > The RS-version of JSON Text Sequences may as well remove all mention = of > > JSON. > > The format is simply: > > * ( RS blob ) > > where blob is anything that doesn=E2=80=99t contain an RS byte/charac= ter. >=20 > The other example I can think of such a format is: XML. Hmmmmmmmm We could produce another MIME type for that :) We could do it now (since it should be trivial, right? (I assume RS can't appear in a proper XML doc, even as CDATA??) Or we could leave it for the first person to need it. Comments? Nico --=20 From nobody Fri Aug 22 13:59:36 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED93F1A6F4B for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2014 13:59:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.666 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.666 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MrdPI3nZynd3 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2014 13:59:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a30.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA8AA1A6F6F for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2014 13:59:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a30.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a30.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 899C121DE59; Fri, 22 Aug 2014 13:59:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to; s=cryptonector.com; bh=wKRD1a8yl4IjLC 3iGEfq0s1sxWo=; b=hPIjOSVbTfPGQ0RPtk4Y+2kT83Af//nf8s6CxeyE8jFhVj JR0rJ6Kpc1aC01mwZUyhIN/AKM6jW/tcIoZ+Ia2y/2w/VA0OM+L6n0bdc92Mpw/m kffdQ5ycx70/ljyK02uusIsiyAd2vw7D2qAoJqAVKtsDUbsJvFo+TjM3o19iw= Received: from localhost (108-207-244-174.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net [108.207.244.174]) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a30.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 2A90421DE57; Fri, 22 Aug 2014 13:59:20 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 15:59:19 -0500 From: Nico Williams To: Dominik Tomaszuk Message-ID: <20140822205918.GF5909@localhost> References: <20140822063216.GA5909@localhost> <53F77A11.20804@wp.pl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <53F77A11.20804@wp.pl> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/LMrjPxGQFqwPddR6QUUR2tC0Ihg Cc: json@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Json] json-text-sequence-06 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 20:59:31 -0000 On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 07:12:49PM +0200, Dominik Tomaszuk wrote: > I propose to avoid all delimiters from C0. This would allow the use > of the hierarchical levels, where US is the lowest level and FS is > the highest level. Did you mean "use" instead of "avoid"? Otherwise you seem to contradict yourself. > My proposal in ABNF: > > JSON-sequence = *(sep JSON-text) > sep = *( > %x1C / ; File Separator > %x1D / ; Group Separator > %x1E / ; Record Separator > %x1F ) ; Unit Separator That could be an interesting MIME type, but not this one. This format is just a sequence, a very _flat_ sequence. Use cases include logfiles (flat), indeterminate-length database query results (also flat), and really, any case where the alternative would be to return a long JSON array at the top-level. A format that sequences arrays at all levels wouldn't be easy to implement. It'd be easier to implement an incremental, streaming JSON parser instead. Whereas flat sequences can be parsed with any off-the-shelf JSON parsers, and you still get a very usable degree of incremental and streaming parsing without having to go the distance at the JSON parser level. Nico -- From nobody Fri Aug 22 14:00:36 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 825DF1A6F71 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2014 14:00:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.37 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.37 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.668, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id L3izjrfY4mlP for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2014 14:00:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 63EBD1A6F78 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2014 14:00:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1XKvwL-0002Qh-MY; Fri, 22 Aug 2014 17:00:05 -0400 Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 17:00:05 -0400 From: John Cowan To: Nico Williams Message-ID: <20140822210005.GJ19006@mercury.ccil.org> References: <20140820063228.GD3104@localhost> <20140821170006.GK3104@localhost> <20140821180427.GL3104@localhost> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E127C6A04036@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> <20140822204347.GE5909@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20140822204347.GE5909@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Sender: John Cowan Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/E2NYZg-3OP2P4JyUJ2tYDfUNUes Cc: "Manger, James" , Tim Bray , "Joe Hildebrand \(jhildebr\)" , "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] json-text-sequence-05 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 21:00:27 -0000 Nico Williams scripsit: > We could do it now (since it should be trivial, right? (I assume RS > can't appear in a proper XML doc, even as CDATA??) Or we could leave it > for the first person to need it. Right, neither in XML 1.0 nor XML 1.1. But this isn't the right place. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org All Gaul is divided into three parts: the part that cooks with lard and goose fat, the part that cooks with olive oil, and the part that cooks with butter. --David Chessler From nobody Fri Aug 22 14:08:36 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 621081A06F3 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2014 14:08:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.169 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.169 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.668, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Zmb2Ivohtoe8 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2014 14:08:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com [173.37.86.79]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DD3641A06E1 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2014 14:08:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1996; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1408741682; x=1409951282; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-id:content-transfer-encoding: mime-version; bh=8vH9sq/+ZOqI4rsKnRGAk66oNLxqkdPmxOack7GCgAs=; b=chchTIRlA5mLPk+evEG7c3ih01sIV+fSqqUraekJ4GC6CDKYD25rZRqG /n0cc27bqXtZQtCPxGXJFAk3MDcAwoMjvQzsGaIEr62tWI+zrQvbjPmxl 33lnH6KW8U0H2z6o/iT0Ibb9qg/muhJ5YxzJ/uOxzeSva+Hp71P2eTp00 0=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AiYFACiw91OtJV2S/2dsb2JhbABZgw2BKgSCeNEvARl3FneEBAEBBCMRRRACAQgaAiYCAgIwFRACBAENBYhCsAKUfheBLI1tMweCeTaBHQEEkSaLI5UMg15sgUiBBwEBAQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.04,383,1406592000"; d="scan'208";a="349639445" Received: from rcdn-core-10.cisco.com ([173.37.93.146]) by rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com with ESMTP; 22 Aug 2014 21:08:01 +0000 Received: from xhc-rcd-x15.cisco.com (xhc-rcd-x15.cisco.com [173.37.183.89]) by rcdn-core-10.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s7ML81Dk016595 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Fri, 22 Aug 2014 21:08:01 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com ([169.254.15.68]) by xhc-rcd-x15.cisco.com ([173.37.183.89]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Fri, 22 Aug 2014 16:08:01 -0500 From: "Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)" To: Paul Hoffman , Nico Williams Thread-Topic: [Json] json-text-sequence-05 Thread-Index: AQHPvECKmQS7buQPZEiIWMBxcMhJiJvbngkAgAAGW4CAAAuggP//u7YAgABxgACAACLdgIABEPAA Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 21:08:00 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20140820063228.GD3104@localhost> <20140821170006.GK3104@localhost> <20140821180427.GL3104@localhost> <20140821204616.GV3104@localhost> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/15.3.0.140730 x-originating-ip: [10.129.24.156] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/KPjd-p2FD6jf-Botgaw6n8IvaxY Cc: "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] json-text-sequence-05 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 21:08:16 -0000 T24gOC8yMS8xNCwgMTA6NTEgUE0sICJQYXVsIEhvZmZtYW4iIDxwYXVsLmhvZmZtYW5AdnBuYy5v cmc+IHdyb3RlOg0KDQo+PiANCj4+IEluZGVlZCwgSSBjYW4uICBJdCBjb3N0cyBub3RoaW5nIHRv IGVtaXQgYW4gZXh0cmEgTEYsIGJ1dCBpdCBkb2VzIGhlbHAuDQo+PiBJJ2Qgbm90IG1ha2UgYSBy ZXF1aXJlbWVudCwgb2YgY291cnNlLCBidXQgSSdkIHJlY29tbWVuZCBpdC4NCj4NCj5QbGVhc2Ug YmUgY2FyZWZ1bCB3aXRoIHlvdXIgd29yZGluZy4gVGhpcyBpcyBub3QgYW4gImV4dHJhIiBMRiBp ZiB0aGVyZSANCj5pcyBubyBMRiB0aGVyZSBhbHJlYWR5LiBJIGJlbGlldmUgeW91IGFyZSB0YWxr aW5nIGFib3V0IHJlY29tbWVuZGluZyAobm90IA0KPnJlcXVpcmluZykgdGhhdCBldmVyeSBKU09O LXRleHQgaGF2ZSBhIExGIGNoYXJhY3RlciBhcyB0aGUgbGFzdCBjaGFyYWN0ZXIgDQo+aW4gdGhl IHNlY29uZCB3cyBvZiAid3MgdmFsdWUgd3MiLCB5ZXM/IEhvd2V2ZXIsIGlmIHRoZSBmaXJzdCB3 cyBoYXMgYSANCj5MRiwgb3IgaWYgdGhlIHNlY29uZCB3cyBoYXMgYSBMRiB0aGF0IGlzIG5vdCB0 aGUgbGFzdCBvbmUsIGZvciBhbnkgb2YgdGhlIA0KPkpTT04tdGV4dHMgaW4gdGhlIHNlcXVlbmNl LCBpdCBraW5kIG9mIHNjb3JjaGVzIGFueSBhZHZhbnRhZ2Ugb2YgeW91ciANCj5zdWdnZXN0aW9u LiBTbywgaWYgeW91IHJlYWxseSBtZWFuICJhbGwgaW5pdGlhbCB3cydzIHNob3VsZCBoYXZlIG5v IExGLCANCj5hbmQgYWxsIHRlcm1pbmFsIHdzJ3Mgc2hvdWxkIGhhdmUgZXhhY3RseSBvbmUgTEYs IGFuZCBpdCBzaG91bGQgYmUgYXQgdGhlIA0KPmVuZCIsIHlvdSBuZWVkIHRvIHNheSB0aGF0IGlu c3RlYWQuDQoNCkkgZG9uJ3QgdGhpbmsgc28uICBJZiB0aGUgdXNlIGNhc2UgaXMgIkkgd2FudCB0 byB1c2UgZ3JlcCwgYW5kIG5vdCBoYXZlIA0KdGhlIHdob2xlIGZpbGUgc2hvdyB1cCB3aGVuIHRo ZSB3b3JkIEknbSBzZWFyY2hpbmcgZm9yIG1hdGNoZXMiLCB0aGVuIGFueSANCm51bWJlciBvZiBM RidzIGJlZm9yZSBvciBhZnRlciB0aGUgSlNPTi10ZXh0IGZpeGVzIHRoZSBwcm9ibGVtLg0KDQo+ QXMgeW91IHRlbGwsIEkgYW0gc2tlcHRpY2FsIHRoYXQgdGhpcyByZWNvbW1lbmRhdGlvbiBpcyBn b2luZyB0byBoZWxwIA0KPnlvdXIgdXNlIGNhc2UgdW5sZXNzIHRoZSByZWNvbW1lbmRhdGlvbiBp cyBjb21wbGljYXRlZC4NCg0KVGhlIHJlY29tbWVuZGF0aW9uIGNvdWxkIGJlICJ0aHJvdyBhIExG IGluIGV2ZXJ5IG9uY2UgaW4gYSB3aGlsZSBpZiB5b3UgDQp3YW50IGdyZXAgdG8gYmUgbW9yZSBl YXNpbHkgdXNlZnVsLCBidXQgbm90ZSB0aGF0IHRoZXkgYXJlIGNvbXBsZXRlbHkgDQpzZW1hbnRp Y2FsbHkgdW5pbnRlcmVzdGluZyIsIHdoaWNoIGRvZXNuJ3Qgc2VlbSB2ZXJ5IGNvbXBsaWNhdGVk Lg0KDQotLSANCkpvZSBIaWxkZWJyYW5kDQoNCg0KDQo= From nobody Fri Aug 22 14:14:51 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31EC81A0977 for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2014 14:14:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.666 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.666 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9X10XaKm3K1J for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2014 14:14:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a64.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B8701A06EA for ; Fri, 22 Aug 2014 14:14:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a64.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a64.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C593438079; Fri, 22 Aug 2014 14:14:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to; s=cryptonector.com; bh=3D5TTEzuhCEEBv z5Hc46eoD4PSY=; b=K6L71bhbTKscgMIPOqPTnBjJV909jSZz1y7ddoRCMae1nl YXLobZjuochddUCQHBmKEi0a6Te+kaDDig0KrF90AwRIZ1b4Xi93oOU/RdVBGpsB jJsqO69gKSRmsgmQ5XvhJZKy8SKmRSsqXAXR+KpPzVNgXj/eVQHPv10rPjxrY= Received: from localhost (108-207-244-174.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net [108.207.244.174]) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a64.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 26DCD438072; Fri, 22 Aug 2014 14:14:25 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 16:14:24 -0500 From: Nico Williams To: "Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)" Message-ID: <20140822211423.GH5909@localhost> References: <20140820063228.GD3104@localhost> <20140821170006.GK3104@localhost> <20140821180427.GL3104@localhost> <20140821204616.GV3104@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/cM_c8xeT19DIO576w1zwZEtR2K8 Cc: Paul Hoffman , "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] json-text-sequence-05 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 21:14:47 -0000 On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 09:08:00PM +0000, Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr) wrote: > On 8/21/14, 10:51 PM, "Paul Hoffman" wrote: > >Please be careful with your wording. This is not an "extra" LF if there > >is no LF there already. [...] > > I don't think so. If the use case is "I want to use grep, and not have > the whole file show up when the word I'm searching for matches", then any > number of LF's before or after the JSON-text fixes the problem. > > >As you tell, I am skeptical that this recommendation is going to help > >your use case unless the recommendation is complicated. > > The recommendation could be "throw a LF in every once in a while if you > want grep to be more easily useful, but note that they are completely > semantically uninteresting", which doesn't seem very complicated. In the end I only added informative text about this. It should be good enough and unobjectionable (right?). Nico -- From nobody Sat Aug 23 01:58:18 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD21C1A86E8 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2014 01:58:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.417 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.417 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HELO_EQ_PL=1.135, HOST_EQ_PL=1.95, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.668, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uisXyEr5G-F3 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2014 01:58:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx4.wp.pl (mx4.wp.pl [212.77.101.12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 720431A04A2 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2014 01:58:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: (wp-smtpd smtp.wp.pl 13362 invoked from network); 23 Aug 2014 10:58:12 +0200 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=wp.pl; s=1024a; t=1408784292; bh=3+GpOPgA0FxZ956kr21o8QNo4pKugCiKgcQ1pE5XDng=; h=From:To:Subject; b=CFoktkhhfRCP+WVvIPivxhjZaXo4wRXEYZzvn4HK+QrsADenS4iwDRY67jEJdoUQj VfEMmhPuvyXjQKlexvDJ01eVp9kp/xsVromr5vHQ3AxPPtup2rCYH4chmikQ2cLpFe GGE0KKcDCgrCjez1iLM0xeOHPk+3P3RQtecHE18Q= Received: from ip-89-161-31-22.tel.tkb.net.pl (HELO [192.168.0.5]) (ddooss@[89.161.31.22]) (envelope-sender ) by smtp.wp.pl (WP-SMTPD) with SMTP for ; 23 Aug 2014 10:58:12 +0200 Message-ID: <53F857A4.6020500@wp.pl> Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2014 10:58:12 +0200 From: Dominik Tomaszuk User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nico Williams , json@ietf.org References: <20140822063216.GA5909@localhost> <53F77A11.20804@wp.pl> <20140822205918.GF5909@localhost> In-Reply-To: <20140822205918.GF5909@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-WP-AV: skaner antywirusowy poczty Wirtualnej Polski S. A. X-WP-SPAM: NO 0000000 [IWMU] Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/CKPKzKC1yHL6JKksnrM_yUnRaPg Subject: Re: [Json] json-text-sequence-06 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2014 08:58:17 -0000 On Fri, 22 Aug 2014 15:59:19 -0500, Nico Williams wrote: > On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 07:12:49PM +0200, Dominik Tomaszuk wrote: >> I propose to avoid all delimiters from C0. This would allow the use >> of the hierarchical levels, where US is the lowest level and FS is >> the highest level. > > Did you mean "use" instead of "avoid"? Otherwise you seem to contradict > yourself. Right. I made a mistake, a slip of the tongue of course. Instead of "avoid" should be "allow". > >> My proposal in ABNF: >> >> JSON-sequence = *(sep JSON-text) >> sep = *( >> %x1C / ; File Separator >> %x1D / ; Group Separator >> %x1E / ; Record Separator >> %x1F ) ; Unit Separator > > That could be an interesting MIME type, but not this one. > > This format is just a sequence, a very _flat_ sequence. Use cases > include logfiles (flat), indeterminate-length database query results > (also flat), and really, any case where the alternative would be to > return a long JSON array at the top-level. Agree. But this flat sequence may have groups, i.e. A [RS] B [US] C [RS] D Here you can process to the first delimiter [RS], or move on and process to the first delimiter [US] as a group A [RS] B. You decide whether you take only A or A and B. (This may depend on various factors, i.e. how large is logfile.) > A format that sequences arrays at all levels wouldn't be easy to > implement. It'd be easier to implement an incremental, streaming JSON > parser instead. +1 > Whereas flat sequences can be parsed with any off-the-shelf JSON > parsers, and you still get a very usable degree of incremental and > streaming parsing without having to go the distance at the JSON parser > level. You can do it also with this group separators. > > Nico > Dominik Tomaszuk Research Fellow University of Bialystok Poland From nobody Sat Aug 23 08:08:23 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 955751A03A0 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2014 08:08:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.647 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.647 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ieSkVNWRoEID for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2014 08:08:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from proper.com (Hoffman.Proper.COM [207.182.41.81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 29F051A039B for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2014 08:08:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.20.30.90] (50-0-66-181.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net [50.0.66.181]) (authenticated bits=0) by proper.com (8.14.9/8.14.7) with ESMTP id s7NF8HcI096349 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2014 08:08:18 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: proper.com: Host 50-0-66-181.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net [50.0.66.181] claimed to be [10.20.30.90] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) From: Paul Hoffman In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2014 08:08:16 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20140822063216.GA5909@localhost> To: IETF JSON WG X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/KmeLV_wVbvhnCygXuUotEc5WqIs Subject: [Json] NUDGE: Re: Second WG Last Call for json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2014 15:08:22 -0000 As much as it is fun to keep debating old topics, it would help the WG = if folks could focus on the current work. We would like to finish up, = and the following WG LC is a way for us to determine how close we are = to that. --Paul Hoffman On Aug 22, 2014, at 10:34 AM, Paul Hoffman = wrote: > Greetings again. The first WG Last Call ended up with no consensus = about whether the document was useful as it stood. Nico has made a few = rounds of changes, and so I'd like to ask folks to read it again, fresh. >=20 > Please respond on the list whether the technical proposal in the new = document could be useful in meeting the use cases and scenarios = described in the document. Note that this is *not* a request for = comments about whether or not you liked the old proposal better; it is a = request about the current document. >=20 > The current document: >=20 > URL: = http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-06.txt > Status: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-json-text-sequence/ > Htmlized: = http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-06 > Diff: = http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-json-text-sequence-06 From nobody Sat Aug 23 10:57:27 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D89541A0522 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2014 10:57:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id POXUMzJLk_mD for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2014 10:57:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vc0-f169.google.com (mail-vc0-f169.google.com [209.85.220.169]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BEE6E1A0382 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2014 10:57:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vc0-f169.google.com with SMTP id le20so13912687vcb.0 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2014 10:57:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=ubTuyd/J+z2HoUeY+Cr0IQr67KhxUUJ1QlmpN9ZfPSg=; b=jWPWkaj1mGgHAAFy0wvwCvTSQRJLGmcOdUlQkHZ7q6OCWKNcjYz0zIu24hyuEIUq37 uykpZKiKx5o6go+hbt+2RroT2BrLorpuwaM6v7rB6JagGQqC3zoBrdOrMjAPK249njsL G40wATHdTPzdmAf1pQH3aksmchqOx7z/hjvrf9xrhMVKyNonld9sexhhFnWW7dM1/ddz 5GhDx97ax18mT50hIJDbHvVT6T3QaXaFzzdj0r+guPNECt9VZaabWMOVkEt1COJteV7f QQfTKDZa9MQBle9l55vcxvDl29uB3KOs1wznFgEQYRcvkYsvplIze+p3Qsgsrfue17mr 9Zqg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkoPEpwV2l0vL1zpJ2LacWbb8pqLU84TU6xsB2rjbxmfIPXCM4DasuAgg+xignh4bBMNQVE X-Received: by 10.220.159.204 with SMTP id k12mr9237219vcx.15.1408816642704; Sat, 23 Aug 2014 10:57:22 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.221.49.194 with HTTP; Sat, 23 Aug 2014 10:57:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [209.91.107.244] In-Reply-To: References: <20140822063216.GA5909@localhost> From: Tim Bray Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2014 10:57:02 -0700 Message-ID: To: Paul Hoffman Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b6722b68acee105014faf6a Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/xkylDEXmXx5JqkCVPmDjuKuc8Qc Cc: IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] NUDGE: Re: Second WG Last Call for json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2014 17:57:26 -0000 --047d7b6722b68acee105014faf6a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Comments on http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-06 Section 2. Two or more RS characters in sequence do not denote "empty" nor missing JSON texts. Do we need to say this? Why? =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D JSON text sequence encoders MAY emit an RS after emitting a JSON text. What is this for? Was this in previous versions? Why would an implementer do this? I can=E2=80=99t perceive any benefits. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D 2.2 In some contexts it is useful to write an LF (%x1A) after writing a JSON text: it makes working with line-oriented text tools easier. First of all, that=E2=80=99s %x0A not 1A. I actually don=E2=80=99t believe this statement is true, but perhaps I=E2= =80=99m in a minority. In the general case, you just can=E2=80=99t process JSON with gr= ep and expect to get a useful result. Sometimes you will in the special case where you know the peculiarities of the JSON some particular software is generating. But if it were my shop, I=E2=80=99d worry that someone would a= chieve a useful result with grep, put it into a production job, and there=E2=80=99d = be a catastrophic failure 18 months later when an auto-update to the JSON-generating library starts introducing newlines between member names and values. The *right* way to accomplish this goal is to pull out the JSON texts between the separators and run them through a JSON prettyprinter that produces a deterministic output, then go crazy with grep and friends. On Sat, Aug 23, 2014 at 8:08 AM, Paul Hoffman wrote= : > As much as it is fun to keep debating old topics, it would help the WG if > folks could focus on the current work. We would like to finish up, and th= e > following WG LC is a way for us to determine how close we are to that. > > --Paul Hoffman > > On Aug 22, 2014, at 10:34 AM, Paul Hoffman wrote: > > > Greetings again. The first WG Last Call ended up with no consensus abou= t > whether the document was useful as it stood. Nico has made a few rounds o= f > changes, and so I'd like to ask folks to read it again, fresh. > > > > Please respond on the list whether the technical proposal in the new > document could be useful in meeting the use cases and scenarios described > in the document. Note that this is *not* a request for comments about > whether or not you liked the old proposal better; it is a request about t= he > current document. > > > > The current document: > > > > URL: > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-06.txt > > Status: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-json-text-sequence/ > > Htmlized: > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-06 > > Diff: > http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-json-text-sequence-06 > > _______________________________________________ > json mailing list > json@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json > --=20 - Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a private message, see https://keybase.io/timbray) --047d7b6722b68acee105014faf6a Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Com= ments on=C2=A0http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-06<= /div>

Section 2.= =C2=A0
   Two or more
   RS characters in sequence do not denote "empty" nor missing JS=
ON
   texts. 

Do we=
 need to say this? Why?





=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D




   JSON text sequence encoders MAY emit an RS aft=
er emitting a
   JSON text.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0
What is this for? = =C2=A0Was this in previous versions? =C2=A0Why would an implementer do this= ? =C2=A0I can=E2=80=99t perceive any benefits.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

2.2

   In some contexts it is useful to write an LF (%x1A) after=
 writing a
   JSON text: it makes working with line-oriented text tools easier.

First of all, that=E2=80=99s %x0A not 1A.

I actually don=E2=80=99t believe this statement is true, but perhaps I=E2= =80=99m in a minority. =C2=A0In the general case, you just can=E2=80=99t pr= ocess JSON with grep and expect to get a useful result. =C2=A0Sometimes you= will in the special case where you know the peculiarities of the JSON some= particular software is generating. =C2=A0But if it were my shop, I=E2=80= =99d worry that someone would achieve a useful result with grep, put it int= o a production job, and there=E2=80=99d be a catastrophic failure 18 months= later when an auto-update to the JSON-generating library starts introducin= g newlines between member names and values.=C2=A0

The *right* way to accomplish = this goal is to pull out the JSON texts between the separators and run them= through a JSON prettyprinter that produces a deterministic output, then go= crazy with grep and friends.



On Sat, Aug 23, 2= 014 at 8:08 AM, Paul Hoffman <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org> wro= te:
As much as it is fun to keep debating old to= pics, it would help the WG if folks could focus on the current work. We wou= ld like to finish up, and the following WG LC is a way for us to determine = how close we are=C2=A0 to that.

--Paul Hoffman

On Aug 22, 2014, at 10:34 AM, Paul Hoffman <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org> wrote:

> Greetings again. The first WG Last Call ended up with no consensus abo= ut whether the document was useful as it stood. Nico has made a few rounds = of changes, and so I'd like to ask folks to read it again, fresh.
>
> Please respond on the list whether the technical proposal in the new d= ocument could be useful in meeting the use cases and scenarios described in= the document. Note that this is *not* a request for comments about whether= or not you liked the old proposal better; it is a request about the curren= t document.
>
> The current document:
>
> URL:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-06.tx= t
> Status:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://da= tatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-json-text-sequence/
> Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0http://tools.ietf.o= rg/html/draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-06
> Diff:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0h= ttp://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-json-text-sequence-06

_______________________________________________
json mailing list
json@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json



--
- Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a private message, s= ee https://keybase= .io/timbray)
--047d7b6722b68acee105014faf6a-- From nobody Sat Aug 23 11:15:54 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A1051A06B8 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2014 11:15:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.269 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.269 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.668, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7ONWCMjd51l6 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2014 11:15:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 840911A06B2 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2014 11:15:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1XLFqt-0002ur-SC; Sat, 23 Aug 2014 14:15:47 -0400 Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2014 14:15:47 -0400 From: John Cowan To: Tim Bray Message-ID: <20140823181547.GA3976@mercury.ccil.org> References: <20140822063216.GA5909@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Sender: John Cowan Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/Ukwk0myq_gazsYjKcz5ep8sIOAc Cc: Paul Hoffman , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] NUDGE: Re: Second WG Last Call for json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2014 18:15:53 -0000 Tim Bray scripsit: > JSON text sequence encoders MAY emit an RS after emitting a > JSON text. > > What is this for? Was this in previous versions? Why would an implementer > do this? I can’t perceive any benefits. It was there indeed. IMO the RS after the text is more important than the RS before the text: the beginning is unambiguous, but if the last part of the sequence is "123", you don't know if that's a real 123 or a chopped 1234. "123" is unambiguous. So I'd reformulate the ABNF rule to say "1*RS *(JSON-text RS)". > The *right* way to accomplish this goal is to pull out the JSON texts > between the separators and run them through a JSON prettyprinter that > produces a deterministic output, then go crazy with grep and friends. Well, that's true, but the prettyprinter in question is 'tr -d '\012', and it will work on sequences just as well as on single texts. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org We do, doodley do, doodley do, doodley do, What we must, muddily must, muddily must, muddily must; Muddily do, muddily do, muddily do, muddily do, Until we bust, bodily bust, bodily bust, bodily bust. --Bokonon From nobody Sat Aug 23 12:07:17 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F28F21A887B for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2014 12:07:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.666 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.666 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id q9HBA-8kJMpe for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2014 12:07:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a85.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24DEF1A887A for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2014 12:07:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a85.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a85.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E88A1BBA06A; Sat, 23 Aug 2014 12:07:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; s= cryptonector.com; bh=Vs4Gw01nzVIP2Ktss3Yonra5k3o=; b=Qig9eDkJLtF uefVMR2Y4kFIEAdBTEtKXyHCna3VeSuGU/qWMqIxbEgpEeocDHE63Yp4JIAIcJU5 PoNM+2O+2h7edQk0dE82Kjw28qpLw0DpyqcVJZnFigzk5VZZTTtGJTvAhfLQRjxP aEVwIturE9flTcFfrJxrdJy41PNh2HSY= Received: from localhost (108-207-244-174.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net [108.207.244.174]) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a85.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 918B8BBA063; Sat, 23 Aug 2014 12:07:13 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2014 14:07:12 -0500 From: Nico Williams To: Tim Bray Message-ID: <20140823190710.GS5909@localhost> References: <20140822063216.GA5909@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/-YY1mzOfCH8D45QtOBKYP_bNALw Cc: Paul Hoffman , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] NUDGE: Re: Second WG Last Call for json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2014 19:07:15 -0000 On Sat, Aug 23, 2014 at 10:57:02AM -0700, Tim Bray wrote: > Comments on http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-06 >=20 > Section 2. >=20 > Two or more > RS characters in sequence do not denote "empty" nor missing JSON > texts. >=20 >=20 > Do we need to say this? Why? If we don't then there will be an ambiguity for any apps that could have a notion of "empty" JSON text, though I admit that's a very strange thing (more null than null). Does any harm result from having that text? > JSON text sequence encoders MAY emit an RS after emitting a > JSON text. >=20 > What is this for? Was this in previous versions? Why would an impleme= nter > do this? I can=E2=80=99t perceive any benefits. The ABNF implicitly allows it. No reason not to mention it. As John Cowan mentions, if the last text written is a number then writing an RS after it can help detect truncated last writes. Maybe it should be a MUST for numbers! > 2.2 >=20 > In some contexts it is useful to write an LF (%x1A) after writing a > JSON text: it makes working with line-oriented text tools easier. >=20 > First of all, that=E2=80=99s %x0A not 1A. Oops, good catch. > I actually don=E2=80=99t believe this statement is true, but perhaps I=E2= =80=99m in a > minority. In the general case, you just can=E2=80=99t process JSON wit= h grep and > expect to get a useful result. [...] It's a useful search space pruning technique, since grep is faster than parsing a text and then applying JSON-aware pattern matching. E.g., $ find . -name \*.json | xargs grep -l something | xargs jq '.foo.bar | s= elect(.baz =3D=3D "something")' For some datasets that's bound to be faster than the almost equivalent: $ find . -name \*.json | xargs jq '.foo.bar | select(.baz =3D=3D "somethi= ng")' It's not reliable, of course, since every character of "something" can be escaped (how annoying), and writing a regexp that accounts for that might not result in a speedup. But I would agree to removing that text because the previous paragraph (describing other JSON sequence schemes) should suffice. Nico --=20 From nobody Sat Aug 23 12:20:29 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DB941A8888 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2014 12:20:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.666 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.666 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6qQbMcNiAtDK for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2014 12:20:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a35.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 049081A8886 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2014 12:20:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a35.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a35.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C81FE54057; Sat, 23 Aug 2014 12:20:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; s= cryptonector.com; bh=sOY8FMSdooSqVx05exjNDDKZ81M=; b=NmSvtnZh3R8 VsTmblzha3e9zhanT7g4NKVuhP46rzCJUxc+DLwXGph3Dmdv+duzA18aH2+WkT+l ynNrS0SAnFSyDhos6b4fp3/MHMrgKYRosPzC/zF9+bPuuAY2CBWuoRFmkXeYxeln Dk5ow2JXbmct5fPNVxkuGAV0IvBHfw4k= Received: from localhost (108-207-244-174.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net [108.207.244.174]) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a35.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 619ED54055; Sat, 23 Aug 2014 12:20:25 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2014 14:20:24 -0500 From: Nico Williams To: John Cowan Message-ID: <20140823192023.GT5909@localhost> References: <20140822063216.GA5909@localhost> <20140823181547.GA3976@mercury.ccil.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20140823181547.GA3976@mercury.ccil.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/V_ojSItYeGRy2aSABUFRf_Gh5vw Cc: Tim Bray , Paul Hoffman , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] NUDGE: Re: Second WG Last Call for json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2014 19:20:27 -0000 On Sat, Aug 23, 2014 at 02:15:47PM -0400, John Cowan wrote: > Tim Bray scripsit: > > JSON text sequence encoders MAY emit an RS after emitting a > > JSON text. > >=20 > > What is this for? Was this in previous versions? Why would an imple= menter > > do this? I can=E2=80=99t perceive any benefits. >=20 > It was there indeed. IMO the RS after the text is more important than > the RS before the text: the beginning is unambiguous, but if the last > part of the sequence is "123", you don't know if that's a real 123 > or a chopped 1234. "123" is unambiguous. Right, I should probably mention this. > So I'd reformulate the ABNF rule to say "1*RS *(JSON-text RS)". Well, if the ABNF is to describe what the parser must deal with, then what we have is good enough. If it must describe what the encoder must do then "RS JSON-text [RS]" is good enough. We could have two rules: one for parsers and one for encoders... The main reason the two rules would differ is the log application with potential for truncated writes. > > The *right* way to accomplish this goal is to pull out the JSON texts > > between the separators and run them through a JSON prettyprinter that > > produces a deterministic output, then go crazy with grep and friends. >=20 > Well, that's true, but the prettyprinter in question is 'tr -d '\012', > and it will work on sequences just as well as on single texts. Well, not quite. If you're looking for strings you have to consider that every character in a string can be escaped, so grep'ing for strings will not be reliable... Though one could construct a filter just for this purpose. $ # jgrep being like grep but with JSON escape awareness $ find . -name \*.json | xargs jgrep -l something | xargs jq '.foo.bar | = select (.baz =3D=3D "something)' Looking for numbers gets... worse. There are other text tools that are useful. For example: $PAGER, $EDITOR (it might have a JSON pretty printer, but it might not handle multi-megabyte lines well). Nico --=20 From nobody Sat Aug 23 16:25:15 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6BE91A1F70 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2014 16:25:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.666 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.666 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SDTvNL1rN2mi for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2014 16:25:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a67.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1973A1A1F16 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2014 16:25:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a67.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a67.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B05E427BC064; Sat, 23 Aug 2014 16:25:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to; s=cryptonector.com; bh=dSyWOiSj2KH1YE yxZT8Ozgu1w9k=; b=gOm6GVbSMa/qNLdv0XoN8jaNxXxCuwj75nNopknJ8sK0kb kb3eQuwk11fWWJd5vx1UCR+k9eIVhj7Xsoa1CLaMhDp3D60hZ145Ba87VG07l2uh imkVbXrawW4WMFB2hg0Ys878eK5QGbIfV148fx0+UmsWM7OC0RbKoIVmGBYAE= Received: from localhost (108-207-244-174.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net [108.207.244.174]) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a67.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 658D727BC061; Sat, 23 Aug 2014 16:25:01 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2014 18:25:00 -0500 From: Nico Williams To: Dominik Tomaszuk Message-ID: <20140823232458.GU5909@localhost> References: <20140822063216.GA5909@localhost> <53F77A11.20804@wp.pl> <20140822205918.GF5909@localhost> <53F857A4.6020500@wp.pl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <53F857A4.6020500@wp.pl> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/0IT7Sia7BPw-oxfEYJv33dP6A6M Cc: json@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Json] json-text-sequence-06 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2014 23:25:04 -0000 On Sat, Aug 23, 2014 at 10:58:12AM +0200, Dominik Tomaszuk wrote: > On Fri, 22 Aug 2014 15:59:19 -0500, Nico Williams wrote: > >>My proposal in ABNF: > >> > >>JSON-sequence = *(sep JSON-text) > >>sep = *( > >> %x1C / ; File Separator > >> %x1D / ; Group Separator > >> %x1E / ; Record Separator > >> %x1F ) ; Unit Separator > > > >[...] > > Agree. But this flat sequence may have groups, i.e. > A [RS] B [US] C [RS] D > > Here you can process to the first delimiter [RS], or move on and > process to the first delimiter [US] as a group A [RS] B. To me that's structure like this: RS [A, B] RS C RS D It's one-level streamed hierarchy, but it's still a hierarchy. If that's what you need then you should use a streaming parser. This format is a happy middle between "streaming without a streaming parser" and "streaming parser". If you need to go beyond this then IMO the trade-off is not worthwhile anymore. > You decide whether you take only A or A and B. (This may depend on > various factors, i.e. how large is logfile.) Hmm, maybe I didn't understand the proposal. I don't understand the A or A and B part. > >A format that sequences arrays at all levels wouldn't be easy to > >implement. It'd be easier to implement an incremental, streaming JSON > >parser instead. > +1 Even two levels is too complex. One level (this format) is just right. Nico -- From nobody Sat Aug 23 18:06:33 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2B731A6F1B for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2014 18:06:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.202 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.202 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_AU=0.377, HOST_EQ_AU=0.327, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RELAY_IS_203=0.994] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oVkYfGo9_18V for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2014 18:06:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ipxavo.tcif.telstra.com.au (ipxavo.tcif.telstra.com.au [203.35.135.200]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 482D71A6F1A for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2014 18:06:30 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.04,388,1406556000"; d="scan'208";a="219868610" Received: from unknown (HELO ipccvi.tcif.telstra.com.au) ([10.97.217.208]) by ipoavi.tcif.telstra.com.au with ESMTP; 24 Aug 2014 10:57:46 +1000 X-IronPort-AV: E=McAfee;i="5600,1067,7539"; a="240935449" Received: from wsmsg3702.srv.dir.telstra.com ([172.49.40.170]) by ipccvi.tcif.telstra.com.au with ESMTP; 24 Aug 2014 11:06:27 +1000 Received: from WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com ([172.49.40.159]) by WSMSG3702.srv.dir.telstra.com ([172.49.40.170]) with mapi; Sun, 24 Aug 2014 11:06:26 +1000 From: "Manger, James" To: Paul Hoffman , IETF JSON WG Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 11:06:26 +1000 Thread-Topic: [Json] Second WG Last Call for json-text-sequence Thread-Index: Ac++L1DsWTuvpe+PSl6FbNmPLl4nxwBCFBxp Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US, en-AU Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US, en-AU Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/8DxfcuNQ0YTv0SEQVF_xfjoYtoQ Subject: Re: [Json] Second WG Last Call for json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 01:06:32 -0000 The RS-prefix proposal is not useful. I have seen no evidence that JSON logs would use it. -- James Manger Paul Hoffman wrote: Greetings again. The first WG Last Call ended up with no consensus about wh= ether the document was useful as it stood. Nico has made a few rounds of ch= anges, and so I'd like to ask folks to read it again, fresh. Please respond on the list whether the technical proposal in the new docume= nt could be useful in meeting the use cases and scenarios described in the = document. Note that this is *not* a request for comments about whether or n= ot you liked the old proposal better; it is a request about the current doc= ument. The current document: URL: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-json-text-se= quence-06.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-json-text-seque= nce/ Htmlized: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-06 Diff: http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-json-text-seq= uence-06 --Paul Hoffman _______________________________________________ json mailing list json@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json From nobody Sat Aug 23 18:14:05 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EB681A6F14 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2014 18:14:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.269 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.269 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.668, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6sNO5-vQL-ay for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2014 18:14:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2305D1A6F13 for ; Sat, 23 Aug 2014 18:14:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1XLMNZ-0006LV-7t; Sat, 23 Aug 2014 21:13:57 -0400 Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2014 21:13:57 -0400 From: John Cowan To: Nico Williams Message-ID: <20140824011357.GC3598@mercury.ccil.org> References: <20140822063216.GA5909@localhost> <20140823181547.GA3976@mercury.ccil.org> <20140823192023.GT5909@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20140823192023.GT5909@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Sender: John Cowan Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/116hYdZtQcTiy6_sfJ6yWIx5Gu4 Cc: Tim Bray , Paul Hoffman , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] NUDGE: Re: Second WG Last Call for json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 01:14:02 -0000 Nico Williams scripsit: > Well, if the ABNF is to describe what the parser must deal with, then > what we have is good enough. If it must describe what the encoder must > do then "RS JSON-text [RS]" is good enough. We could have two rules: one > for parsers and one for encoders... The main reason the two rules would > differ is the log application with potential for truncated writes. My point is rather stronger: I don't see any benefit from a leading RS, whereas there is substantial benefit for a trailing RS. In Tim Bray's terms, I am proposing changing from: for all JSON texts: write RS write text to: for all JSON texts: write text write RS > > Well, that's true, but the prettyprinter in question is 'tr -d '\012', > > and it will work on sequences just as well as on single texts. > > Well, not quite. If you're looking for strings you have to consider > that every character in a string can be escaped, so grep'ing for strings > will not be reliable... I don't understand what you are saying. I'm saying that to make a JSON text live on a single line, you strip all existing newline characters and add one newline character to the end. Period. There are no newline characters in JSON strings. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org Eric Raymond is the Margaret Mead of the Open Source movement. --Bruce Perens, a long time ago From nobody Sun Aug 24 02:19:44 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 836001A88E1 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2014 02:19:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.017 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.017 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HELO_EQ_PL=1.135, HOST_EQ_PL=1.95, J_CHICKENPOX_41=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.668, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CZJtcNP3QaAz for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2014 02:19:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx3.wp.pl (mx3.wp.pl [212.77.101.10]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 997341A8885 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2014 02:19:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: (wp-smtpd smtp.wp.pl 8139 invoked from network); 24 Aug 2014 11:19:33 +0200 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=wp.pl; s=1024a; t=1408871973; bh=z2uoWUj/lzm4yj6DCM7+QD893pDFqgz35h5bIC8YOgE=; h=From:To:CC:Subject; b=AU25ZOWAjCkk0zRhFJJji6BMkkkVeDIkf6XE5PCRtVniFwma2nwzq1s+ND8RYe3J7 yz6ftthHjpwV5LGKWds4kGRoc76K4vI369zHaiP4QjMk2Hag7rzdAw6IbzwgPeGzx9 whIxC3vraALBQoohwX684JQ5+sH1nkmT15X7VoOE= Received: from ip-89-161-31-22.tel.tkb.net.pl (HELO [192.168.0.5]) (ddooss@[89.161.31.22]) (envelope-sender ) by smtp.wp.pl (WP-SMTPD) with SMTP for ; 24 Aug 2014 11:19:33 +0200 Message-ID: <53F9AE25.7050002@wp.pl> Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 11:19:33 +0200 From: Dominik Tomaszuk User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nico Williams References: <20140822063216.GA5909@localhost> <53F77A11.20804@wp.pl> <20140822205918.GF5909@localhost> <53F857A4.6020500@wp.pl> <20140823232458.GU5909@localhost> In-Reply-To: <20140823232458.GU5909@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-WP-AV: skaner antywirusowy poczty Wirtualnej Polski S. A. X-WP-SPAM: NO 0000000 [0XOk] Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/D3ppnoyN8fOptFMcmuOwPk898QQ Cc: json@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Json] json-text-sequence-06 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 09:19:39 -0000 On Sat, 23 Aug 2014 18:25:00 -0500, Nico Williams wrote: > On Sat, Aug 23, 2014 at 10:58:12AM +0200, Dominik Tomaszuk wrote: >> On Fri, 22 Aug 2014 15:59:19 -0500, Nico Williams wrote: >>>> My proposal in ABNF: >>>> >>>> JSON-sequence = *(sep JSON-text) >>>> sep = *( >>>> %x1C / ; File Separator >>>> %x1D / ; Group Separator >>>> %x1E / ; Record Separator >>>> %x1F ) ; Unit Separator >>> >>> [...] >> >> Agree. But this flat sequence may have groups, i.e. >> A [RS] B [US] C [RS] D >> >> Here you can process to the first delimiter [RS], or move on and >> process to the first delimiter [US] as a group A [RS] B. > > To me that's structure like this: > > RS [A, B] RS C RS D > > It's one-level streamed hierarchy, but it's still a hierarchy. If > that's what you need then you should use a streaming parser. Not exactly. When A and B are generated you can not know whether is this group will be large or not. In my example decide that at the end. In youe example I should decide at the begining. If it's large I generate US. During processing of this I can give value specifying the limit. Consequently, I take A and B (if size(A and B) < limit) or only A (if size(A and B) > limit). > > This format is a happy middle between "streaming without a streaming > parser" and "streaming parser". If you need to go beyond this then > IMO the trade-off is not worthwhile anymore. > >> You decide whether you take only A or A and B. (This may depend on >> various factors, i.e. how large is logfile.) > > Hmm, maybe I didn't understand the proposal. I don't understand the A > or A and B part. > >>> A format that sequences arrays at all levels wouldn't be easy to >>> implement. It'd be easier to implement an incremental, streaming JSON >>> parser instead. >> +1 > > Even two levels is too complex. One level (this format) is just right. Probably my proposal is more complex. But supporting of 4 separators from C0 can be optional, i.e.: A RS B US C RS D It can be processing like A RS B RS C RS D if the parser is simpler or as above if the parser is more advanced. In my opinion adding of additional separators will not significantly affect the spec. But it gives a more accurate processing. > > Nico > Dominik Tomaszuk Research Fellow University of Bialystok Poland From nobody Sun Aug 24 10:17:20 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABC341A032A for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2014 10:17:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id O9TzDtXMt7y9 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2014 10:17:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vc0-f171.google.com (mail-vc0-f171.google.com [209.85.220.171]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BCE3C1A03AB for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2014 10:17:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vc0-f171.google.com with SMTP id hq11so14262509vcb.16 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2014 10:17:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=eGABARMff0PGwHx4S+LcMduR8V57Ods77cofXZzwGTg=; b=I48gK/EiGCrVe7XBkfiXXnLLBiA+mCOF7iAj4RyZe0KYiciQqjSCn1NB0ahqkIBaoj 90Mb6mJVOPIJ0c5bSEmmCeNzVUwjvPtxJZKHd8yru5rHT7xb4jXM1Y0Jzhle1jtz3rN+ KgwPXSEIzQ6EEMiD3UccKX4FnGejQPiLcjHHjuNiVMKEfsVNsPzZogco3a10NJVdcHEr D96ZRi1GMjcFHLnyuHU7HMlt/YYtchPL4MI6QvEHgrhb+OHnV/3kJs0gp2k3Mw9ZY5Wf Rf8ibRv8XWmpdsn9qp59DvcMPTBV6D9Zu6aqJGhi0O0peIuko5zDvSjAiFIwejCfz4zC t5tQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmVvk5k32CasKsvMSQo39ljbJDO7VUZhJwjivVi3i5mEGZjwOwiYX1aJFXMpjinj5HRnJGN X-Received: by 10.52.245.66 with SMTP id xm2mr1838491vdc.36.1408900634801; Sun, 24 Aug 2014 10:17:14 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.221.49.194 with HTTP; Sun, 24 Aug 2014 10:16:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [209.91.107.244] In-Reply-To: <20140824011357.GC3598@mercury.ccil.org> References: <20140822063216.GA5909@localhost> <20140823181547.GA3976@mercury.ccil.org> <20140823192023.GT5909@localhost> <20140824011357.GC3598@mercury.ccil.org> From: Tim Bray Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 10:16:54 -0700 Message-ID: To: John Cowan Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c257aadc8c130501633da1 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/eZtTN_BNmSafykVMcj6F88EQ-t4 Cc: Nico Williams , Paul Hoffman , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] NUDGE: Re: Second WG Last Call for json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 17:17:17 -0000 --001a11c257aadc8c130501633da1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For regular expressions, I still kind of like (to use normal not RFC syntax): (RS JSON-text)* The leading RS might be a useful signal, and distinguishing end-of-message is a problem solved at another level. On Sat, Aug 23, 2014 at 6:13 PM, John Cowan wrote: > Nico Williams scripsit: > > > Well, if the ABNF is to describe what the parser must deal with, then > > what we have is good enough. If it must describe what the encoder must > > do then "RS JSON-text [RS]" is good enough. We could have two rules: o= ne > > for parsers and one for encoders... The main reason the two rules woul= d > > differ is the log application with potential for truncated writes. > > My point is rather stronger: I don't see any benefit from a leading RS, > whereas there is substantial benefit for a trailing RS. In Tim Bray's > terms, I am proposing changing from: > > for all JSON texts: > write RS > write text > > to: > > for all JSON texts: > write text > write RS > > > > Well, that's true, but the prettyprinter in question is 'tr -d '\012'= , > > > and it will work on sequences just as well as on single texts. > > > > Well, not quite. If you're looking for strings you have to consider > > that every character in a string can be escaped, so grep'ing for string= s > > will not be reliable... > > I don't understand what you are saying. I'm saying that to make a JSON > text live on a single line, you strip all existing newline characters > and add one newline character to the end. Period. There are no newline > characters in JSON strings. > > -- > John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org > Eric Raymond is the Margaret Mead of the Open Source movement. > --Bruce Perens, a long time ago > --=20 - Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a private message, see https://keybase.io/timbray) --001a11c257aadc8c130501633da1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
For= regular expressions, I still kind of like (to use normal not RFC syntax):<= /div>

(RS JSON-text)*

The leadi= ng RS might be a useful signal, and distinguishing end-of-message is a prob= lem solved at another level.


On Sat,= Aug 23, 2014 at 6:13 PM, John Cowan <cowan@mercury.ccil.org><= /span> wrote:
Nico Williams scripsit:

> Well, if the ABNF is to describe what the parser must deal with, then<= br> > what we have is good enough.=C2=A0 If it must describe what the encode= r must
> do then "RS JSON-text [RS]" is good enough.=C2=A0 We could h= ave two rules: one
> for parsers and one for encoders...=C2=A0 The main reason the two rule= s would
> differ is the log application with potential for truncated writes.

My point is rather stronger:=C2=A0 I don't see any benefit from a= leading RS,
whereas there is substantial benefit for a trailing RS.=C2=A0 In Tim Bray&#= 39;s
terms, I am proposing changing from:

for all JSON texts:
=C2=A0 write RS
=C2=A0 write text

to:

for all JSON texts:
=C2=A0 write text
=C2=A0 write RS

> > Well, that's true, but the prettyprinter in question is '= tr -d '\012',
> > and it will work on sequences just as well as on single texts. >
> Well, not quite.=C2=A0 If you're looking for strings you have to c= onsider
> that every character in a string can be escaped, so grep'ing for s= trings
> will not be reliable...

I don't understand what you are saying.=C2=A0 I'm saying that= to make a JSON
text live on a single line, you strip all existing newline characters
and add one newline character to the end.=C2=A0 Period.=C2=A0 There are no = newline
characters in JSON strings.

--
John Cowan=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 http://www.ccil.org/~cowan=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 cowan@ccil.org
Eric Raymond is the Margaret Mead of the Open Source movement.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 --Bruce Perens, a long time ago



--
- Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a private message, s= ee https://keybase= .io/timbray)
--001a11c257aadc8c130501633da1-- From nobody Sun Aug 24 10:23:50 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 250DF1A0412 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2014 10:23:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.269 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.269 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.668, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AkQ7rApdc7er for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2014 10:23:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8FC571A03AB for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2014 10:23:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1XLbW3-00057x-2r; Sun, 24 Aug 2014 13:23:43 -0400 Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 13:23:43 -0400 From: John Cowan To: Tim Bray Message-ID: <20140824172342.GK3598@mercury.ccil.org> References: <20140822063216.GA5909@localhost> <20140823181547.GA3976@mercury.ccil.org> <20140823192023.GT5909@localhost> <20140824011357.GC3598@mercury.ccil.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Sender: John Cowan Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/gBwOn59mdOwg5XqtGw1w7hjZbjo Cc: Nico Williams , Paul Hoffman , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] NUDGE: Re: Second WG Last Call for json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 17:23:48 -0000 Tim Bray scripsit: > The leading RS might be a useful signal, and distinguishing end-of-message > is a problem solved at another level. It's not about end-of-message as such, it's about an unambiguous signal that the message is complete. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org Why are well-meaning Westerners so concerned that the opening of a Colonel Sanders in Beijing means the end of Chinese culture? [...] We have had Chinese restaurants in America for over a century, and it hasn't made us Chinese. On the contrary, we obliged the Chinese to invent chop suey. --Marshall Sahlins From nobody Sun Aug 24 10:33:23 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6084F1A0417 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2014 10:33:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NVhs7KMWYvIg for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2014 10:33:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vc0-f176.google.com (mail-vc0-f176.google.com [209.85.220.176]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 185841A03D3 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2014 10:33:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vc0-f176.google.com with SMTP id id10so14056999vcb.21 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2014 10:33:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=vXBURjLzkZjjoH/oOk4QA9ZByxdZuheeur58bHBkUw8=; b=HRcBzPYRtlQST4uC3Sn8hoiSqqGdh9ywAnO5iV1Ff1vLte9LCiqK3M5W33hOqZgKqg jIHtRj2fbBQrM5yvNII517CTa6SjIS7zoGlt/F5nNY2oxxHRiSfhxsSKe8Mdl4ZcYpdG AAG7S3/Jx5MijAXILAt0Uo5G47kzBS8yT8M7iFBGDGeKu+eEOH4ER5fmQniBQAzFi5xL DgjeVsOA3NiSX/te1fc4k5SmVFunF9T0I8GajkoWM3ZaWhKtnDXN4OXb24lKMF/GGaC4 JMxAuoBF3yC3D2BlBgz3BpYj8TXUxyNaJC4qKaNVRPM8HrdbS1742j0CvniWYnHHWHdq KuhA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlvh7Y/xre2w2zITdfFdBs3+qTEYt28XamPdwSoFEZACa5U+2bn++2whOZ3KvuRBQTFlnV3 X-Received: by 10.52.8.71 with SMTP id p7mr856697vda.77.1408901599139; Sun, 24 Aug 2014 10:33:19 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.221.49.194 with HTTP; Sun, 24 Aug 2014 10:32:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [209.91.107.244] In-Reply-To: <20140824172342.GK3598@mercury.ccil.org> References: <20140822063216.GA5909@localhost> <20140823181547.GA3976@mercury.ccil.org> <20140823192023.GT5909@localhost> <20140824011357.GC3598@mercury.ccil.org> <20140824172342.GK3598@mercury.ccil.org> From: Tim Bray Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 10:32:59 -0700 Message-ID: To: John Cowan Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf3033473557318505016377e3 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/lLQSEsWv-3vxUmUFMPbMRxcYxB0 Cc: Nico Williams , Paul Hoffman , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] NUDGE: Re: Second WG Last Call for json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 17:33:22 -0000 --20cf3033473557318505016377e3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Oh, I see... if you see "1234321" you don=E2=80=99t know if it=E2=80= =99s an error. OK, good argument. So (JSON-text RS)* On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 10:23 AM, John Cowan wrote= : > Tim Bray scripsit: > > > The leading RS might be a useful signal, and distinguishing > end-of-message > > is a problem solved at another level. > > It's not about end-of-message as such, it's about an unambiguous signal > that the message is complete. > > -- > John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org > Why are well-meaning Westerners so concerned that the opening of a > Colonel Sanders in Beijing means the end of Chinese culture? [...] > We have had Chinese restaurants in America for over a century, > and it hasn't made us Chinese. On the contrary, we obliged the Chinese > to invent chop suey. --Marshall Sahlins > --=20 - Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a private message, see https://keybase.io/timbray) --20cf3033473557318505016377e3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Oh,= I see... if you see "1234321<EOF>" you don=E2=80=99t know = if it=E2=80=99s an error. =C2=A0OK, good argument. =C2=A0So (JSON-text RS)*= =C2=A0


On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 10:23 AM, John C= owan <cowan@mercury.ccil.org> wrote:
Tim Bray scripsit:

> The leading RS might be a useful signal, and distinguishing end-of-mes= sage
> is a problem solved at another level.

It's not about end-of-message as such, it's about an unambigu= ous signal
that the message is complete.

--
John Cowan=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 http://www.ccil.org/~cowan=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 cowan@ccil.org
Why are well-meaning Westerners so concerned that the opening of a Colonel Sanders in Beijing means the end of Chinese culture? [...]
We have had Chinese restaurants in America for over a century,
and it hasn't made us Chinese.=C2=A0 On the contrary, we obliged the Ch= inese
to invent chop suey.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 --Marshall Sa= hlins



--
- Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a private message, s= ee https://keybase= .io/timbray)
--20cf3033473557318505016377e3-- From nobody Sun Aug 24 10:39:57 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 117711A0417 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2014 10:39:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.55 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7oo8iu8rVo-t for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2014 10:39:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.web.de (mout.web.de [212.227.15.4]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8563C1A03D3 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2014 10:39:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from newyork.local.box ([80.187.100.77]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb002) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MS1xS-1WsV5W3tZi-00TBRZ for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2014 19:39:53 +0200 Message-ID: <53FA2368.2020702@drees.name> Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 19:39:52 +0200 From: Stefan Drees User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.8; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: json@ietf.org References: <20140822063216.GA5909@localhost> <20140823181547.GA3976@mercury.ccil.org> <20140823192023.GT5909@localhost> <20140824011357.GC3598@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:46C1NzND7jZPulkimy2qvAyLjv0MZEVfbbcTQvEpSRenyIlfaaB QEtnxHoBPLOdxy8QjpK1fIy2+DwpA2lkJnLJTfjQkngnw6fuZqaOjIJU7bLzMX+Ez9V8BCj gIEKhZD+VFauVzugnLsBDV4S73/8jGh1nLOEvgUjyd0MJ15DTU7qKL9vsT6tSob6i/LgspX 6HEH2jf79X/ZPB0rYiLKA== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1; Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/XZvG7bBsoLU9UcRk5AoLr2m7Z6s Subject: Re: [Json] NUDGE: Re: Second WG Last Call for json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: stefan@drees.name List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 17:39:56 -0000 "I am missing a bit focus" RS 42 RS 3.1415 Should be a valid sequence of the 3 JSON texts: ["I am missing a bit focus", 42, 3.1415] here wrapped in a JSON (heterogeneous) array. I would expect the producer might be as simple as in python eg. '\x1E'.join(json_texts) The consumer of such a snippet should be configured to either trust any info part as complete or to well, do what? Force the producer to add an RS always? ... In my daily diff business on source code, missing trailing newlines are not rare and I doubt we will enforce this here for good. The start of message might always be eagerly prefixed with an RS if the consumer absolutely needs it. In python you often use StringIO to fake a prefix dummy section so you can consume and produce ini files with a global "non-section". I ssupsect we - whilst drifting away from the well-known newline as separater of log entries to the RS regime - lose a bit focus about what we expect to be placed where by whom and what for. {"top-postingly-yours": "Stefan"} Am 24.08.14 19:16, schrieb Tim Bray: > For regular expressions, I still kind of like (to use normal not RFC > syntax): > > (RS JSON-text)* > > The leading RS might be a useful signal, and distinguishing > end-of-message is a problem solved at another level. > > > On Sat, Aug 23, 2014 at 6:13 PM, John Cowan > wrote: > > Nico Williams scripsit: > > > Well, if the ABNF is to describe what the parser must deal with, then > > what we have is good enough. If it must describe what the > encoder must > > do then "RS JSON-text [RS]" is good enough. We could have two > rules: one > > for parsers and one for encoders... The main reason the two > rules would > > differ is the log application with potential for truncated writes. > > My point is rather stronger: I don't see any benefit from a leading RS, > whereas there is substantial benefit for a trailing RS. In Tim Bray's > terms, I am proposing changing from: > > for all JSON texts: > write RS > write text > > to: > > for all JSON texts: > write text > write RS > > > > Well, that's true, but the prettyprinter in question is 'tr -d > '\012', > > > and it will work on sequences just as well as on single texts. > > > > Well, not quite. If you're looking for strings you have to consider > > that every character in a string can be escaped, so grep'ing for > strings > > will not be reliable... > > I don't understand what you are saying. I'm saying that to make a JSON > text live on a single line, you strip all existing newline characters > and add one newline character to the end. Period. There are no newline > characters in JSON strings. > > -- > John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org > > Eric Raymond is the Margaret Mead of the Open Source movement. > --Bruce Perens, a long time ago > > > > > -- > - Tim Bray (If youd like to send me a private message, see > https://keybase.io/timbray) > > > _______________________________________________ > json mailing list > json@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json > From nobody Mon Aug 25 06:55:49 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 971261A895E for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 06:55:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.669 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.669 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.668] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id h7PKlID8ibDD for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 06:55:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from daboo.name (daboo.name [173.13.55.49]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0853D1A895D for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 06:55:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by daboo.name (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E095711024; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 09:51:35 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at example.com Received: from daboo.name ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (daboo.name [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oJW3kltJS-04; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 09:51:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from caldav.corp.apple.com (unknown [17.45.162.46]) by daboo.name (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0CBFE711014; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 09:51:31 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 09:55:37 -0400 From: Cyrus Daboo To: Tim Bray , John Cowan Message-ID: <45ACBD1C88786183C1A85385@caldav.corp.apple.com> In-Reply-To: References: <20140822063216.GA5909@localhost> <20140823181547.GA3976@mercury.ccil.org> <20140823192023.GT5909@localhost> <20140824011357.GC3598@mercury.ccil.org> <20140824172342.GK3598@mercury.ccil.org> X-Mailer: Mulberry/4.1.0b1 (Mac OS X) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline; size=576 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/Qqnhsepup8a4EIoPIEqwqsg-4Qg Cc: Nico Williams , Paul Hoffman , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] NUDGE: Re: Second WG Last Call for json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 13:55:47 -0000 Hi Tim, --On August 24, 2014 at 10:32:59 AM -0700 Tim Bray =20 wrote: > Oh, I see... if you see "1234321" you don=E2=80=99t know if = it=E2=80=99s an > error. OK, good argument. So (JSON-text RS)* > Isn't one the goals here to allow any number of processes to potentially=20 log to the same file without having to check that the previous entry ended=20 with RS (the assumption being that a single file.write() is atomic)? If so, = then always pre-pending the entries with RS guarantees that even partially=20 written entries are properly delineated. --=20 Cyrus Daboo From nobody Mon Aug 25 08:59:24 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCDEB1A0080 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 08:59:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.169 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.169 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.668, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Lx6MQ4N_vSvu for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 08:59:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com [173.37.86.79]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1F0461A00D8 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 08:52:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=854; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1408981962; x=1410191562; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-id:content-transfer-encoding: mime-version; bh=O13QLItmCdJR32yxa5XH4l/u3hZ41AhAqE1N8x4sUaQ=; b=ffQbU18kYcpYG8se6XNVmoqEroSFuLhiKVWmXyBcIqs3SzRSe9Jen4i/ Fe7TJ1hpYNr2BVdlMPzy6Yr3ztYcFWe/Nf5pPz969m2QIeiMWOp0Oh63u kzcE+igiGylWS/GvTtAmKqci/v5K8++bjzOh+SPvMCuqIvNy3rrJAadLS c=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AhQFAIta+1OtJA2B/2dsb2JhbABagw2BKgSCeNEoARmBCRZ3hAQBAQQdBhFFEAIBCBoCJgICAjAVEAIEAQ0FiEKrPJRQF4EsjW0zB4J5NoEdAQSRJosjlQyDXmyBSIEHAQEB X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.04,397,1406592000"; d="scan'208";a="350095438" Received: from alln-core-9.cisco.com ([173.36.13.129]) by rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com with ESMTP; 25 Aug 2014 15:52:41 +0000 Received: from xhc-rcd-x13.cisco.com (xhc-rcd-x13.cisco.com [173.37.183.87]) by alln-core-9.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s7PFqfh4004984 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Mon, 25 Aug 2014 15:52:41 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com ([169.254.15.68]) by xhc-rcd-x13.cisco.com ([173.37.183.87]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 10:52:41 -0500 From: "Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)" To: John Cowan , Nico Williams Thread-Topic: [Json] NUDGE: Re: Second WG Last Call for json-text-sequence Thread-Index: AQHPvvu6xFwZZOtQgkaBpQceKjcJRpve0l+AgAASDgCAAGLIgIACI02A Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 15:52:40 +0000 Message-ID: <5232D2C3-39D6-4DCF-865F-07E01EB1BC98@cisco.com> References: <20140822063216.GA5909@localhost> <20140823181547.GA3976@mercury.ccil.org> <20140823192023.GT5909@localhost> <20140824011357.GC3598@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20140824011357.GC3598@mercury.ccil.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/15.3.0.140730 x-originating-ip: [10.21.65.8] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/NR2w6IxS3Z991Vd7iwOPYPuE_Gs Cc: Tim Bray , Paul Hoffman , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] NUDGE: Re: Second WG Last Call for json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 15:59:21 -0000 T24gOC8yNC8xNCwgMToxMyBBTSwgIkpvaG4gQ293YW4iIDxjb3dhbkBtZXJjdXJ5LmNjaWwub3Jn PiB3cm90ZToNCg0KPk15IHBvaW50IGlzIHJhdGhlciBzdHJvbmdlcjogIEkgZG9uJ3Qgc2VlIGFu eSBiZW5lZml0IGZyb20gYSBsZWFkaW5nIFJTLA0KPndoZXJlYXMgdGhlcmUgaXMgc3Vic3RhbnRp YWwgYmVuZWZpdCBmb3IgYSB0cmFpbGluZyBSUy4gIEluIFRpbSBCcmF5J3MNCj50ZXJtcywgSSBh bSBwcm9wb3NpbmcgY2hhbmdpbmcgZnJvbToNCg0KVGhlIG90aGVyIHVzZSBjYXNlIHRvIGtlZXAg aW4gbWluZCBpcyBjb25jYXRlbmF0aW5nIG11bHRpcGxlIA0KcG9zc2libHktdHJ1bmNhdGVkIGZp bGVzIHRvZ2V0aGVyLiAgV2l0aCB0aGUgbGVhZGluZyBSUywgeW91J3JlIGFsd2F5cyANCnN1cmUg dGhhdCB0aGUgZmlyc3QgKHByZXN1bWFibHkgd2VsbC1mb3JtZWQpIEpTT04tdGV4dCBpbiB0aGUg c2Vjb25kIGZpbGUgDQpjYW4gYmUgcmVhZC4NCg0KUlMgKEpTT04tdGV4dCBSUykqDQoNCg0KU2Vl bXMgdG8gYmUgYSBnb29kIGNvbXByb21pc2UsIGV4Y2VwdCBmb3IgQ3lydXMncyB1c2UgY2FzZSBv ZiBtdWx0aXBsZSANCndyaXRlcnMuDQoNCi0tIA0KSm9lIEhpbGRlYnJhbmQNCg0KDQoNCg== From nobody Mon Aug 25 09:14:02 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDB2C1A0421 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 09:13:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.569 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.569 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.668, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rU6eFvUjzG9A for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 09:13:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C37D11A00ED for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 09:03:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1XLwjX-0005dZ-4L; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 12:03:03 -0400 Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 12:03:03 -0400 From: John Cowan To: "Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)" Message-ID: <20140825160303.GB25210@mercury.ccil.org> References: <20140822063216.GA5909@localhost> <20140823181547.GA3976@mercury.ccil.org> <20140823192023.GT5909@localhost> <20140824011357.GC3598@mercury.ccil.org> <5232D2C3-39D6-4DCF-865F-07E01EB1BC98@cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <5232D2C3-39D6-4DCF-865F-07E01EB1BC98@cisco.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Sender: John Cowan Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/aQ5iX1DurLLUHaD5SrgqouZqfo8 Cc: Nico Williams , Tim Bray , Paul Hoffman , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] NUDGE: Re: Second WG Last Call for json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 16:13:52 -0000 Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr) scripsit: > The other use case to keep in mind is concatenating multiple > possibly-truncated files together. With the leading RS, you're always > sure that the first (presumably well-formed) JSON-text in the second file > can be read. > > RS (JSON-text RS)* Excellent point, and a good grammar rule. I tried to design a rule that would allow zero-or-more RSes at the beginning and end with one-or-more in between and still allow an empty sequence, but found it too difficult. As a compromise with the original design, I suggest: 1*RS *(JSON-text 1*RS) That guarantees delimiters at both ends, makes the minimal empty sequence simply RS RS, and allows Bray pseudo-code like this: For each JSON text, atomically: write RS write the JSON-text write RS -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org I Hope, Sir, that we are not mutually Un-friended by this Difference which hath happened betwixt us. --Thomas Fuller, Appeal of Injured Innocence (1659) From nobody Mon Aug 25 09:30:11 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F3401A02D6 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 09:30:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.169 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.169 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.668, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sx7Q21EHjENn for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 09:30:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-7.cisco.com (alln-iport-7.cisco.com [173.37.142.94]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EC5271A02E3 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 09:15:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=624; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1408983334; x=1410192934; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-id:content-transfer-encoding: mime-version; bh=aFkXxvElTvfy3SG92UdZ0AQEmauHCqewSaZFvxmqmV0=; b=KBWfX/sm9E8GI7FBCNKUhUBoleYOh+Fi8EJALv9d3f62dqP61mJjhF/7 vAgz+/XoeMPfrZmE5Roj3MBDIb1W6PdHe4D1yULE1WJVu7NUfB+Kjtw23 D7C2gn+pVbKQndz467n0EwX3vu2AWB3E3UjMAQO1aoYgApnfU80RgbPRP I=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AhMFAJxg+1OtJA2I/2dsb2JhbABagw2BKgSCeNEoARmBCRZ3hAQBAQQdBhFFEAIBCBoCJgICAjAVEAIEDgWIQqs6lFMXgSyNbTMHgnk2gR0BBJEmiyOVDINebIFIgQcBAQE X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.04,397,1406592000"; d="scan'208";a="72156160" Received: from alln-core-3.cisco.com ([173.36.13.136]) by alln-iport-7.cisco.com with ESMTP; 25 Aug 2014 16:15:34 +0000 Received: from xhc-aln-x01.cisco.com (xhc-aln-x01.cisco.com [173.36.12.75]) by alln-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s7PGFY9w020447 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Mon, 25 Aug 2014 16:15:34 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com ([169.254.15.68]) by xhc-aln-x01.cisco.com ([173.36.12.75]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 11:15:34 -0500 From: "Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)" To: John Cowan Thread-Topic: [Json] NUDGE: Re: Second WG Last Call for json-text-sequence Thread-Index: AQHPvvu6xFwZZOtQgkaBpQceKjcJRpve0l+AgAASDgCAAGLIgIACI02AgABncYD//570AA== Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 16:15:33 +0000 Message-ID: <8FA81D92-105D-47F4-8934-8526B436DAAF@cisco.com> References: <20140822063216.GA5909@localhost> <20140823181547.GA3976@mercury.ccil.org> <20140823192023.GT5909@localhost> <20140824011357.GC3598@mercury.ccil.org> <5232D2C3-39D6-4DCF-865F-07E01EB1BC98@cisco.com> <20140825160303.GB25210@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20140825160303.GB25210@mercury.ccil.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/15.3.0.140730 x-originating-ip: [10.21.65.8] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <38C55B966B3D3741B1EEECF56E1B605A@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/amxy8CrTXndqlyQv9yLyL8-jMUw Cc: Nico Williams , Tim Bray , Paul Hoffman , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] NUDGE: Re: Second WG Last Call for json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 16:30:10 -0000 T24gOC8yNS8xNCwgNDowMyBQTSwgIkpvaG4gQ293YW4iIDxjb3dhbkBtZXJjdXJ5LmNjaWwub3Jn PiB3cm90ZToNCg0KPkFzIGEgY29tcHJvbWlzZSB3aXRoIHRoZSBvcmlnaW5hbCBkZXNpZ24sIEkg c3VnZ2VzdDoNCj4NCj4gICAgMSpSUyAqKEpTT04tdGV4dCAxKlJTKQ0KPg0KPlRoYXQgZ3VhcmFu dGVlcyBkZWxpbWl0ZXJzIGF0IGJvdGggZW5kcywgbWFrZXMgdGhlIG1pbmltYWwgZW1wdHkgc2Vx dWVuY2UNCj5zaW1wbHkgUlMgUlMsIGFuZCBhbGxvd3MgQnJheSBwc2V1ZG8tY29kZSBsaWtlIHRo aXM6DQo+DQo+Rm9yIGVhY2ggSlNPTiB0ZXh0LCBhdG9taWNhbGx5Og0KPiAgd3JpdGUgUlMNCj4g IHdyaXRlIHRoZSBKU09OLXRleHQNCj4gIHdyaXRlIFJTDQoNCldvdWxkbid0IHRoYXQgYmU6DQoN CiooMSpSUyBKU09OLXRleHQgMSpSUykNCg0KDQotLSANCkpvZSBIaWxkZWJyYW5kDQoNCg0KDQo= From nobody Mon Aug 25 09:33:31 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31C001A0089 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 09:33:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.169 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.169 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.668, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id K8oyF9X8kRmJ for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 09:33:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-1.cisco.com (alln-iport-1.cisco.com [173.37.142.88]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C86011A0205 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 09:20:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=2530; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1408983606; x=1410193206; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:content-id: content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=KVhYcv9mspJkw1C0IClHXZua5nAO/uyst2/zwrDjBnM=; b=b3Fxu5xUnWpnRmfbWkZoUYf2MhJF409XIMI6uhw9QiEURRF2LFMK9t0Z Do1S/r7swNCjVPNo6edEBdwW8AnRUJoShrpSo+fD1ZqAzMXxzKBNjMDhq U5QLzPXraINUA57LXEHDTSRX0ZLyXgu2bB18+bHEMMw/tRxAU/IZhMTrK c=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AiAFAKFh+1OtJA2E/2dsb2JhbABagw1TUwQEgnjJUQyHZYEJFneEBQEEAQEBIBE6HQEgAgImAgQlCxUSBBMJiDkIBZt1jy+UVReBLJEgNoEdBY8TghOEKYZ6gViTNINebAGBR4EHAQEB X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.04,397,1406592000"; d="scan'208";a="72100607" Received: from alln-core-10.cisco.com ([173.36.13.132]) by alln-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 25 Aug 2014 16:20:06 +0000 Received: from xhc-rcd-x13.cisco.com (xhc-rcd-x13.cisco.com [173.37.183.87]) by alln-core-10.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s7PGK6Qo010822 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL) for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 16:20:06 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com ([169.254.15.68]) by xhc-rcd-x13.cisco.com ([173.37.183.87]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 11:20:05 -0500 From: "Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)" To: IETF JSON WG Thread-Topic: JSON-text for sequences Thread-Index: AQHPwIBu+enPIAmKF02/e/fjJhkkoA== Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 16:20:05 +0000 Message-ID: <0B4F9183-B9F1-47FF-AECB-91CE7A5A747C@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/15.3.0.140730 x-originating-ip: [10.21.65.8] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <05B5CB7854651F49A2437C08257E2A70@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/M4pUPW1QFAryHyTMOxX-EoHMUK4 Subject: [Json] JSON-text for sequences X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 16:33:30 -0000 U3RhcnRpbmcgYSBuZXcgdGhyZWFkIGFzIFBhdWwgcmVxdWVzdGVkLg0KDQoiSlNPTi10ZXh0IiBp biB0aGUgQUJORiBpcyB3cm9uZywgaW4gbXkgb3Bpbmlvbi4gIEEgc2VxdWVuY2UgY2FuIGJlIA0K c3ludGFjdGljYWxseSB2YWxpZCB3aXRoIGludmFsaWQgKGUuZy4gdHJ1bmNhdGVkKSBKU09OLXRl eHQgaW4gdGhlIA0Kc2VxdWVuY2UuICBJIHN1Z2dlc3Q6DQoNCnBvdGVudGlhbC1KU09OLXRleHQg PSA8dmFsaWQgSlNPTi10ZXh0IGFzIGdpdmVuIGJ5IFJGQzcxNTksIG90aGVyd2lzZSANCmlnbm9y ZWQ+DQoNCk9yIHNvbWV0aGluZyB0byB0aGF0IGVmZmVjdC4NCg0KT24gOC8yMy8xNCwgMzowOCBQ TSwgIlBhdWwgSG9mZm1hbiIgPHBhdWwuaG9mZm1hbkB2cG5jLm9yZz4gd3JvdGU6DQoNCj5BcyBt dWNoIGFzIGl0IGlzIGZ1biB0byBrZWVwIGRlYmF0aW5nIG9sZCB0b3BpY3MsIGl0IHdvdWxkIGhl bHAgdGhlIFdHIGlmIA0KPmZvbGtzIGNvdWxkIGZvY3VzIG9uIHRoZSBjdXJyZW50IHdvcmsuIFdl IHdvdWxkIGxpa2UgdG8gZmluaXNoIHVwLCBhbmQgDQo+dGhlIGZvbGxvd2luZyBXRyBMQyBpcyBh IHdheSBmb3IgdXMgdG8gZGV0ZXJtaW5lIGhvdyBjbG9zZSB3ZSBhcmUgIHRvIA0KPnRoYXQuDQo+ DQo+LS1QYXVsIEhvZmZtYW4NCj4NCj5PbiBBdWcgMjIsIDIwMTQsIGF0IDEwOjM0IEFNLCBQYXVs IEhvZmZtYW4gPHBhdWwuaG9mZm1hbkB2cG5jLm9yZz4gd3JvdGU6DQo+DQo+PiBHcmVldGluZ3Mg YWdhaW4uIFRoZSBmaXJzdCBXRyBMYXN0IENhbGwgZW5kZWQgdXAgd2l0aCBubyBjb25zZW5zdXMg DQo+PmFib3V0IHdoZXRoZXIgdGhlIGRvY3VtZW50IHdhcyB1c2VmdWwgYXMgaXQgc3Rvb2QuIE5p Y28gaGFzIG1hZGUgYSBmZXcgDQo+PnJvdW5kcyBvZiBjaGFuZ2VzLCBhbmQgc28gSSdkIGxpa2Ug dG8gYXNrIGZvbGtzIHRvIHJlYWQgaXQgYWdhaW4sIGZyZXNoLg0KPj4gDQo+PiBQbGVhc2UgcmVz cG9uZCBvbiB0aGUgbGlzdCB3aGV0aGVyIHRoZSB0ZWNobmljYWwgcHJvcG9zYWwgaW4gdGhlIG5l dyANCj4+ZG9jdW1lbnQgY291bGQgYmUgdXNlZnVsIGluIG1lZXRpbmcgdGhlIHVzZSBjYXNlcyBh bmQgc2NlbmFyaW9zIA0KPj5kZXNjcmliZWQgaW4gdGhlIGRvY3VtZW50LiBOb3RlIHRoYXQgdGhp cyBpcyAqbm90KiBhIHJlcXVlc3QgZm9yIA0KPj5jb21tZW50cyBhYm91dCB3aGV0aGVyIG9yIG5v dCB5b3UgbGlrZWQgdGhlIG9sZCBwcm9wb3NhbCBiZXR0ZXI7IGl0IGlzIGEgDQo+PnJlcXVlc3Qg YWJvdXQgdGhlIGN1cnJlbnQgZG9jdW1lbnQuDQo+PiANCj4+IFRoZSBjdXJyZW50IGRvY3VtZW50 Og0KPj4gDQo+PiBVUkw6ICAgICAgICAgICAgDQo+Pmh0dHA6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvaW50ZXJu ZXQtZHJhZnRzL2RyYWZ0LWlldGYtanNvbi10ZXh0LXNlcXVlbmNlLTA2LnR4dA0KPj4gU3RhdHVz OiAgICAgICAgIA0KPj5odHRwczovL2RhdGF0cmFja2VyLmlldGYub3JnL2RvYy9kcmFmdC1pZXRm LWpzb24tdGV4dC1zZXF1ZW5jZS8NCj4+IEh0bWxpemVkOiAgICAgICANCj4+aHR0cDovL3Rvb2xz LmlldGYub3JnL2h0bWwvZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi1qc29uLXRleHQtc2VxdWVuY2UtMDYNCj4+IERpZmY6 ICAgICAgICAgICANCj4+aHR0cDovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9yZmNkaWZmP3VybDI9ZHJhZnQtaWV0 Zi1qc29uLXRleHQtc2VxdWVuY2UtMDYNCj4NCj5fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KPmpzb24gbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQo+anNvbkBpZXRmLm9yZw0K Pmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vanNvbg0KPg0KDQoNCi0tIA0K Sm9lIEhpbGRlYnJhbmQNCg0KDQoNCg== From nobody Mon Aug 25 09:34:28 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 226811A0072 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 09:34:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.269 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.269 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.668, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Hg-0ZTr_d0oU for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 09:34:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 632F91A0264 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 09:22:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1XLx21-0007AZ-El; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 12:22:09 -0400 Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 12:22:09 -0400 From: John Cowan To: "Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)" Message-ID: <20140825162209.GC25210@mercury.ccil.org> References: <20140822063216.GA5909@localhost> <20140823181547.GA3976@mercury.ccil.org> <20140823192023.GT5909@localhost> <20140824011357.GC3598@mercury.ccil.org> <5232D2C3-39D6-4DCF-865F-07E01EB1BC98@cisco.com> <20140825160303.GB25210@mercury.ccil.org> <8FA81D92-105D-47F4-8934-8526B436DAAF@cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <8FA81D92-105D-47F4-8934-8526B436DAAF@cisco.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Sender: John Cowan Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/fxk5WGbW0B3i89LXYOu5r3mxxE8 Cc: Nico Williams , Tim Bray , Paul Hoffman , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] NUDGE: Re: Second WG Last Call for json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 16:34:27 -0000 Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr) scripsit: > > 1*RS *(JSON-text 1*RS) > > Wouldn't that be: > > *(1*RS JSON-text 1*RS) That rule requires, rather than simply permitting, the pattern RS-text-RS-RS-text-RS. My version also permits that, but further permits RS-text-RS-text-RS. It also guarantees that all sequences, even empty ones, begin and end with RS (whereas in your version the empty sequence is the empty body). -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org I don't know half of you half as well as I should like, and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve. --Bilbo From nobody Mon Aug 25 09:44:04 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 727D51A0051 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 09:44:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.169 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.169 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.668, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hs636M_ePGdL for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 09:43:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-3.cisco.com (alln-iport-3.cisco.com [173.37.142.90]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F24F71A0151 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 09:35:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1618; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1408984546; x=1410194146; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-id:content-transfer-encoding: mime-version; bh=75RdplJVpGiFJdlZwsUwyFdyFPSwOFuSeliy+sKAgn4=; b=ba5OxSM+aMG8bKXDnVfcnhr1CT8tzh4AsJ34GjWlDw2OCCnMN1jFEM0J t/qBudt8QlN2WKen+9zK74fgYyddWr6zvchXkoLn3UH3G1GWnXfxGSq58 Orafyso+YddoBBkgtVcLOJfxC8gXmwcRnshBxDHxYRdpArTdkNtjLUJHJ 4=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AhMFAIJl+1OtJV2R/2dsb2JhbABZgw2BKgSCeNEpARmBCRZ3hAQBAQQdBhFFEAIBCBoCJgICAjAVEAIEDgWIQqsvlFgXgSyOIAeCeTaBHQWRJosjlQyBZB6BXGyBSIEHAQEB X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.04,397,1406592000"; d="scan'208";a="72152781" Received: from rcdn-core-9.cisco.com ([173.37.93.145]) by alln-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 25 Aug 2014 16:35:45 +0000 Received: from xhc-aln-x03.cisco.com (xhc-aln-x03.cisco.com [173.36.12.77]) by rcdn-core-9.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s7PGZjSq016186 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Mon, 25 Aug 2014 16:35:45 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com ([169.254.15.68]) by xhc-aln-x03.cisco.com ([173.36.12.77]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 11:35:45 -0500 From: "Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)" To: John Cowan Thread-Topic: [Json] NUDGE: Re: Second WG Last Call for json-text-sequence Thread-Index: AQHPvvu6xFwZZOtQgkaBpQceKjcJRpve0l+AgAASDgCAAGLIgIACI02AgABncYD//570AIAAZmKA//+fQAA= Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 16:35:43 +0000 Message-ID: <019AF41C-5B4F-4476-A1E5-591216F7C73D@cisco.com> References: <20140822063216.GA5909@localhost> <20140823181547.GA3976@mercury.ccil.org> <20140823192023.GT5909@localhost> <20140824011357.GC3598@mercury.ccil.org> <5232D2C3-39D6-4DCF-865F-07E01EB1BC98@cisco.com> <20140825160303.GB25210@mercury.ccil.org> <8FA81D92-105D-47F4-8934-8526B436DAAF@cisco.com> <20140825162209.GC25210@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20140825162209.GC25210@mercury.ccil.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/15.3.0.140730 x-originating-ip: [10.21.65.8] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/ZeGVqjOhAOV0ftQaEtHS6zupJcc Cc: Nico Williams , Tim Bray , Paul Hoffman , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] NUDGE: Re: Second WG Last Call for json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 16:44:01 -0000 T24gOC8yNS8xNCwgNDoyMiBQTSwgIkpvaG4gQ293YW4iIDxjb3dhbkBtZXJjdXJ5LmNjaWwub3Jn PiB3cm90ZToNCg0KPkpvZSBIaWxkZWJyYW5kIChqaGlsZGVicikgc2NyaXBzaXQ6DQo+DQo+PiA+ ICAgIDEqUlMgKihKU09OLXRleHQgMSpSUykNCj4+IA0KPj4gV291bGRuJ3QgdGhhdCBiZToNCj4+ IA0KPj4gKigxKlJTIEpTT04tdGV4dCAxKlJTKQ0KPg0KPlRoYXQgcnVsZSByZXF1aXJlcywgcmF0 aGVyIHRoYW4gc2ltcGx5IHBlcm1pdHRpbmcsIHRoZSBwYXR0ZXJuDQo+UlMtdGV4dC1SUy1SUy10 ZXh0LVJTLiAgTXkgdmVyc2lvbiBhbHNvIHBlcm1pdHMgdGhhdCwgYnV0IGZ1cnRoZXIgcGVybWl0 cw0KPlJTLXRleHQtUlMtdGV4dC1SUy4gIEl0IGFsc28gZ3VhcmFudGVlcyB0aGF0IGFsbCBzZXF1 ZW5jZXMsIGV2ZW4gZW1wdHkNCj5vbmVzLCBiZWdpbiBhbmQgZW5kIHdpdGggUlMgKHdoZXJlYXMg aW4geW91ciB2ZXJzaW9uIHRoZSBlbXB0eSBzZXF1ZW5jZQ0KPmlzIHRoZSBlbXB0eSBib2R5KS4N Cg0KKzEuICBSZW1pbmRlciwgdGhlbiwgSm9obidzIHZlcnNpb24gd2FzOg0KDQoxKlJTICooSlNP Ti10ZXh0IDEqUlMpDQoNCg0KQW5kIHRoZSBnZW5lcmF0b3IgcnVsZSB3YXM6DQoNCkZvciBlYWNo IEpTT04gdGV4dCwgYXRvbWljYWxseToNCiAgd3JpdGUgUlMNCiAgd3JpdGUgdGhlIEpTT04tdGV4 dA0KICB3cml0ZSBSUw0KDQoNCkknZCBzdWdnZXN0IGEgc2xpZ2h0IG1vZGlmaWNhdGlvbiBpbiB0 aGF0IGlmIHlvdSdyZSBub3Qgd3JpdGluZyBiYXJlIA0KbnVtYmVycyBhcyB5b3VyIEpTT04tdGV4 dHMsIHRoZSBzZWNvbmQgUlMgaXNuJ3QgdXNlZnVsIGFuZCBjb3VsZCBiZSANCnNraXBwZWQuICBJ ZiBtb3N0IGZvbGtzIGFyZSBsb2dnaW5nIG9iamVjdHMsIHlvdSBnZXQgdG8gc2F2ZSBMT1RTIE9G IEJZVEVTIA0KKG5vdCkuICBIb3dldmVyLCBpdCdzIG9uZSBsZXNzIHRoaW5nIHRvIGdldCBpbnRv IHRoZSBhdG9taWMgd3JpdGUsIHdoaWNoIA0KbWlnaHQgYmUgaW50ZXJlc3RpbmcgZm9yIHNvbWVv bmUuDQoNCkRvIHlvdSB0aGluayBzb21ldGhpbmcgbGlrZSBUaW0ncyBnZW5lcmF0b3IgcnVsZSB3 b3VsZCBiZSB1c2VmdWwgdG8gZ28gDQppbnRvIHRoZSBkb2N1bWVudCBhcyBpbXBsZW1lbnRhdGlv biBndWlkYW5jZT8NCg0KLS0gDQpKb2UgSGlsZGVicmFuZA0KDQoNCg0K From nobody Mon Aug 25 09:47:55 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC1F41A002A for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 09:47:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.647 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.647 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id u0eNkBX86mj8 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 09:47:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from proper.com (Hoffman.Proper.COM [207.182.41.81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D5A581A0068 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 09:44:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.20.30.90] (50-0-66-181.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net [50.0.66.181]) (authenticated bits=0) by proper.com (8.14.9/8.14.7) with ESMTP id s7PGih1t046256 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 25 Aug 2014 09:44:45 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: proper.com: Host 50-0-66-181.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net [50.0.66.181] claimed to be [10.20.30.90] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) From: Paul Hoffman In-Reply-To: <0B4F9183-B9F1-47FF-AECB-91CE7A5A747C@cisco.com> Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 09:44:43 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <0B4F9183-B9F1-47FF-AECB-91CE7A5A747C@cisco.com> To: Joe Hildebrand X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/KEC_4MdDVN8F4wjTH79zrN6eI34 Cc: IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] JSON-text for sequences X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 16:47:54 -0000 On Aug 25, 2014, at 9:20 AM, Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr) = wrote: > Starting a new thread as Paul requested. >=20 > "JSON-text" in the ABNF is wrong, in my opinion. A sequence can be=20 > syntactically valid with invalid (e.g. truncated) JSON-text in the=20 > sequence. I suggest: >=20 > potential-JSON-text =3D ignored> >=20 > Or something to that effect. What is the purpose of defining that? The protocol is meant for = JSON-texts, but also *happens* to work for potential-JSON-texts. Why = complicate the definition? --Paul Hoffman= From nobody Mon Aug 25 10:05:15 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7EBE1A00AB for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 10:05:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.169 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.169 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.668, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id J8ApSLQqGUCv for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 10:05:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-4.cisco.com (alln-iport-4.cisco.com [173.37.142.91]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DFC2F1A00F9 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 10:04:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1248; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1408986286; x=1410195886; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-id:content-transfer-encoding: mime-version; bh=nzEP2x5FPc9qnDoP9aTxz0XVWc/dVzEbuUatsN+spnY=; b=l+llK8pvUVDq6Izq7tIuqtR4CRK6g/8gofTImrTRKRP35oxBTmLKq58/ 1iSw5rVXamaKbAmtULnbC8jkwXZIPUJUZPQE2prwkOlvCh4e/Lo9fUbe5 tTHnBEk8b8u+o0TNz6LA76gnswzyo7VPGNv2DUfWGDukZoCNshhSivK27 0=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AhMFAJlr+1OtJA2G/2dsb2JhbABagw2BKgSCeNEqARmBCRZ3hAQBAQQjEUUQAgEIGAICJgICAjAVEAIEDgWIQqszlF0XgSyNbTMHgnk2gR0BBJEmiyOVDINebIFIgQcBAQE X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.04,398,1406592000"; d="scan'208";a="72171261" Received: from alln-core-12.cisco.com ([173.36.13.134]) by alln-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 25 Aug 2014 17:04:46 +0000 Received: from xhc-rcd-x04.cisco.com (xhc-rcd-x04.cisco.com [173.37.183.78]) by alln-core-12.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s7PH4kuU028633 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Mon, 25 Aug 2014 17:04:46 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com ([169.254.15.68]) by xhc-rcd-x04.cisco.com ([fe80::200:5efe:173.37.183.34%12]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 12:04:45 -0500 From: "Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)" To: Paul Hoffman Thread-Topic: [Json] JSON-text for sequences Thread-Index: AQHPwIBu+enPIAmKF02/e/fjJhkkoJvh2o6A//+hDwA= Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 17:04:45 +0000 Message-ID: References: <0B4F9183-B9F1-47FF-AECB-91CE7A5A747C@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/15.3.0.140730 x-originating-ip: [10.21.73.242] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <8DE3B4DB7A8B384E94DB707DE13CD283@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/UZx3hM0K4Hie9s3QQ-cxNKH44YM Cc: IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] JSON-text for sequences X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 17:05:11 -0000 T24gOC8yNS8xNCwgNDo0NCBQTSwgIlBhdWwgSG9mZm1hbiIgPHBhdWwuaG9mZm1hbkB2cG5jLm9y Zz4gd3JvdGU6DQoNCj48bm8gaGF0Pg0KPg0KPk9uIEF1ZyAyNSwgMjAxNCwgYXQgOToyMCBBTSwg Sm9lIEhpbGRlYnJhbmQgKGpoaWxkZWJyKSANCj48amhpbGRlYnJAY2lzY28uY29tPiB3cm90ZToN Cj4NCj4+IFN0YXJ0aW5nIGEgbmV3IHRocmVhZCBhcyBQYXVsIHJlcXVlc3RlZC4NCj4+IA0KPj4g IkpTT04tdGV4dCIgaW4gdGhlIEFCTkYgaXMgd3JvbmcsIGluIG15IG9waW5pb24uICBBIHNlcXVl bmNlIGNhbiBiZSANCj4+IHN5bnRhY3RpY2FsbHkgdmFsaWQgd2l0aCBpbnZhbGlkIChlLmcuIHRy dW5jYXRlZCkgSlNPTi10ZXh0IGluIHRoZSANCj4+IHNlcXVlbmNlLiAgSSBzdWdnZXN0Og0KPj4g DQo+PiBwb3RlbnRpYWwtSlNPTi10ZXh0ID0gPHZhbGlkIEpTT04tdGV4dCBhcyBnaXZlbiBieSBS RkM3MTU5LCBvdGhlcndpc2UgDQo+PiBpZ25vcmVkPg0KPj4gDQo+PiBPciBzb21ldGhpbmcgdG8g dGhhdCBlZmZlY3QuDQo+DQo+V2hhdCBpcyB0aGUgcHVycG9zZSBvZiBkZWZpbmluZyB0aGF0PyBU aGUgcHJvdG9jb2wgaXMgbWVhbnQgZm9yIA0KPkpTT04tdGV4dHMsIGJ1dCBhbHNvICpoYXBwZW5z KiB0byB3b3JrIGZvciBwb3RlbnRpYWwtSlNPTi10ZXh0cy4gV2h5IA0KPmNvbXBsaWNhdGUgdGhl IGRlZmluaXRpb24/DQoNCkJlY2F1c2UgQUJORiBkb2Vzbid0IGRlZmluZSBwYXJ0aWFsIGZhaWx1 cmVzIGluIHBhcnNpbmcsIGFzIGZhciBhcyBJIGtub3cuIA0KV2l0aCB0aGUgQUJORiBhcy1pcywg dGVjaG5pY2FsbHkgSSBzaG91bGQgc3RvcCBwYXJzaW5nIHRoZSBlbnRpcmUgZmlsZSANCndoZW4g SSBnZXQgb25lIGNvcnJ1cHQgZW50cnkuDQoNCi0tIA0KSm9lIEhpbGRlYnJhbmQNCg0KDQoNCg== From nobody Mon Aug 25 11:35:57 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A01601A0298 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 11:35:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.647 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.647 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xYA_UdWl_Ni8 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 11:35:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from proper.com (Hoffman.Proper.COM [207.182.41.81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5643E1A0243 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 11:35:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.20.30.90] (50-0-66-181.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net [50.0.66.181]) (authenticated bits=0) by proper.com (8.14.9/8.14.7) with ESMTP id s7PIZhRu055043 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 25 Aug 2014 11:35:45 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from paul.hoffman@vpnc.org) X-Authentication-Warning: proper.com: Host 50-0-66-181.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net [50.0.66.181] claimed to be [10.20.30.90] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 \(1878.6\)) From: Paul Hoffman In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 11:35:42 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <0B4F9183-B9F1-47FF-AECB-91CE7A5A747C@cisco.com> To: Joe Hildebrand X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/OjY6HJtwTKwjNWognjKbFdJ9sJg Cc: IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] JSON-text for sequences X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 18:35:54 -0000 On Aug 25, 2014, at 10:04 AM, Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr) = wrote: > On 8/25/14, 4:44 PM, "Paul Hoffman" wrote: >=20 >> >>=20 >> On Aug 25, 2014, at 9:20 AM, Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)=20 >> wrote: >>=20 >>> Starting a new thread as Paul requested. >>>=20 >>> "JSON-text" in the ABNF is wrong, in my opinion. A sequence can be=20= >>> syntactically valid with invalid (e.g. truncated) JSON-text in the=20= >>> sequence. I suggest: >>>=20 >>> potential-JSON-text =3D >> ignored> >>>=20 >>> Or something to that effect. >>=20 >> What is the purpose of defining that? The protocol is meant for=20 >> JSON-texts, but also *happens* to work for potential-JSON-texts. Why=20= >> complicate the definition? >=20 > Because ABNF doesn't define partial failures in parsing, as far as I = know.=20 > With the ABNF as-is, technically I should stop parsing the entire file=20= > when I get one corrupt entry. OK, I get it. That's not the way that I think of using ABNF, but I trust = you as a developer on that. So, the draft should in fact specify what = type of thing is being surrounded by the sequence delimiters. --Paul Hoffman= From nobody Mon Aug 25 11:46:14 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C7041A02BA for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 11:46:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4jsZI4P-n8Pz for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 11:46:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vc0-f177.google.com (mail-vc0-f177.google.com [209.85.220.177]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1A6751A0242 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 11:46:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vc0-f177.google.com with SMTP id hy4so15352034vcb.22 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 11:46:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=wW8FE/CMHb7rLTqHVU5arIFXZ4Pc6KXbznBglBKfMfg=; b=IhpzrNclTuid2EbxVIKBvR5ZKLSZEr5nizWxAjHoepTPvITiQTch+niuFRlQgpuKmL jp/S00ZmKk+2RVUjoB9mzvz0PlzBacbFVhtZ8PY2kXT9ocSalGrEhyDIXsgRJ7QbGjyI ++7MDSZX9Tc9q7U3WnsIQqyn6ZGR6egKK6o6yWkzUYJyR6JL3sdoNwwU8th3Fb2eojsB ujjow/c437jjc6Ry0Dp+HinxyavCeyE+DA8M1gPHF6bUyrJZvcauE/6V93iCpETtMt1f yyWZt3HzpCQ3mSHFXpPy/0TXVdYRgy6Triijxc7Z8fPxD0PodQnvP5ow1zxnnRNYVkcv m/9A== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkCZJSUcoNGNnTBIMo3Zr1inTOkCpRsBDlb7pUdDJjhkSfrnUVALTq+lyxSOM2RnAdt8ufd X-Received: by 10.52.30.2 with SMTP id o2mr17041166vdh.12.1408992369155; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 11:46:09 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.221.49.194 with HTTP; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 11:45:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [24.114.22.59] In-Reply-To: References: <0B4F9183-B9F1-47FF-AECB-91CE7A5A747C@cisco.com> From: Tim Bray Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 11:45:49 -0700 Message-ID: To: Paul Hoffman Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf307d06b2a7b93f05017899fa Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/cU2Q8ovIai7ZLLDDn0N_lkwVFbk Cc: Joe Hildebrand , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] JSON-text for sequences X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 18:46:12 -0000 --20cf307d06b2a7b93f05017899fa Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well, Nico=E2=80=99s nice =E2=80=9Cnot necessarily fatal=E2=80=9D section i= s another way of achieving the same goal without trying to push nondeterministic situations into abnf. On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 11:35 AM, Paul Hoffman wrote: > On Aug 25, 2014, at 10:04 AM, Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr) < > jhildebr@cisco.com> wrote: > > > On 8/25/14, 4:44 PM, "Paul Hoffman" wrote: > > > >> > >> > >> On Aug 25, 2014, at 9:20 AM, Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr) > >> wrote: > >> > >>> Starting a new thread as Paul requested. > >>> > >>> "JSON-text" in the ABNF is wrong, in my opinion. A sequence can be > >>> syntactically valid with invalid (e.g. truncated) JSON-text in the > >>> sequence. I suggest: > >>> > >>> potential-JSON-text =3D >>> ignored> > >>> > >>> Or something to that effect. > >> > >> What is the purpose of defining that? The protocol is meant for > >> JSON-texts, but also *happens* to work for potential-JSON-texts. Why > >> complicate the definition? > > > > Because ABNF doesn't define partial failures in parsing, as far as I > know. > > With the ABNF as-is, technically I should stop parsing the entire file > > when I get one corrupt entry. > > OK, I get it. That's not the way that I think of using ABNF, but I trust > you as a developer on that. So, the draft should in fact specify what typ= e > of thing is being surrounded by the sequence delimiters. > > --Paul Hoffman > _______________________________________________ > json mailing list > json@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json > --=20 - Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a private message, see https://keybase.io/timbray) --20cf307d06b2a7b93f05017899fa Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Wel= l, Nico=E2=80=99s nice =E2=80=9Cnot necessarily fatal=E2=80=9D section is a= nother way of achieving the same goal without trying to push nondeterminist= ic situations into abnf.


On Mon,= Aug 25, 2014 at 11:35 AM, Paul Hoffman <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org>= wrote:
On Aug 25, 2014, at 10:04 AM= , Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr) <jhild= ebr@cisco.com> wrote:

> On 8/25/14, 4:44 PM, "Paul Hoffman" <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org> wrote:
>
>> <no hat>
>>
>> On Aug 25, 2014, at 9:20 AM, Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)
>> <jhildebr@cisco.com&g= t; wrote:
>>
>>> Starting a new thread as Paul requested.
>>>
>>> "JSON-text" in the ABNF is wrong, in my opinion.=C2= =A0 A sequence can be
>>> syntactically valid with invalid (e.g. truncated) JSON-text in= the
>>> sequence.=C2=A0 I suggest:
>>>
>>> potential-JSON-text =3D <valid JSON-text as given by RFC715= 9, otherwise
>>> ignored>
>>>
>>> Or something to that effect.
>>
>> What is the purpose of defining that? The protocol is meant for >> JSON-texts, but also *happens* to work for potential-JSON-texts. W= hy
>> complicate the definition?
>
> Because ABNF doesn't define partial failures in parsing, as far as= I know.
> With the ABNF as-is, technically I should stop parsing the entire file=
> when I get one corrupt entry.

OK, I get it. That's not the way that I think of using ABNF, but = I trust you as a developer on that. So, the draft should in fact specify wh= at type of thing is being surrounded by the sequence delimiters.

--Paul Hoffman
_____________________= __________________________
json mailing list
json@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json



--
=
- Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a privat= e message, see htt= ps://keybase.io/timbray)
--20cf307d06b2a7b93f05017899fa-- From nobody Mon Aug 25 14:22:18 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDEAE1A0362 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 14:22:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.169 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.169 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.668, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 62jM1hSmJa8i for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 14:22:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com [173.37.86.72]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D187B1A0381 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 14:22:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=542; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1409001732; x=1410211332; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-id:content-transfer-encoding: mime-version; bh=UqzAC58/osav0obMzPvTMiztpkjz7WI7Gs7Q70y9K84=; b=fzE5QB4Hu2d/H082b6FtGopTK0oInxn7I245Z50Rz0uRkoHhdamcTpDA KQPh/dmaW3QGiEG/L/h8+ySlFNB7Cpw87YKRXPRv7skxe5D04xlowRF5R 4yTXirn7f5ihLdxVEW/kHxaC1WSTiKVeYgpwBqQLMpFuAcMxZgs8CpL9z w=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AhQFAPin+1OtJA2G/2dsb2JhbABagw2BKgSCeNErARmBBRZ3hAQBAQQjEUUQAgEIDgwCJgICAjAVEAIEAQ0FiEKrC5UKF4EsjW0zB4J5NoEdAQSRJosjlQyDXmyBSIEHAQEB X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.04,398,1406592000"; d="scan'208";a="349955745" Received: from alln-core-12.cisco.com ([173.36.13.134]) by rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 25 Aug 2014 21:22:11 +0000 Received: from xhc-aln-x13.cisco.com (xhc-aln-x13.cisco.com [173.36.12.87]) by alln-core-12.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s7PLMBp1029078 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Mon, 25 Aug 2014 21:22:11 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com ([169.254.15.68]) by xhc-aln-x13.cisco.com ([173.36.12.87]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 16:22:10 -0500 From: "Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)" To: Tim Bray , Paul Hoffman Thread-Topic: [Json] JSON-text for sequences Thread-Index: AQHPwIBu+enPIAmKF02/e/fjJhkkoJvh2o6A//+hDwCAAH3zAIAAAtSA///HIwA= Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 21:22:10 +0000 Message-ID: References: <0B4F9183-B9F1-47FF-AECB-91CE7A5A747C@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/15.3.0.140730 x-originating-ip: [10.21.73.242] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <2C8394AF0DA1D441AFF22873AF15F336@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/s4eiYABptZGdg7et2pgWEE4J61g Cc: IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] JSON-text for sequences X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 21:22:16 -0000 T24gOC8yNS8xNCwgNjo0NSBQTSwgIlRpbSBCcmF5IiA8dGJyYXlAdGV4dHVhbGl0eS5jb20+IHdy b3RlOg0KDQo+V2VsbCwgTmljb+KAmXMgbmljZSDigJxub3QgbmVjZXNzYXJpbHkgZmF0YWzigJ0g c2VjdGlvbiBpcyBhbm90aGVyIHdheSBvZiANCj5hY2hpZXZpbmcgdGhlIHNhbWUgZ29hbCB3aXRo b3V0IHRyeWluZyB0byBwdXNoIG5vbmRldGVybWluaXN0aWMgDQo+c2l0dWF0aW9ucyBpbnRvIGFi bmYuDQoNCkNhbiB3ZSBwdXQgYSBjb3VwbGUgb2YgZXh0cmEgd29yZHMgaW4gdGhlIGNvbW1lbnQg YXQgbGVhc3Q/ICBFeGFtcGxlOg0KDQpKU09OLXRleHQgPSA8Z2l2ZW4gYnkgUkZDNzE1OSwgYnV0 IHNlZSBzZWN0aW9uIDIuMT4NCg0KDQoNCi0tIA0KSm9lIEhpbGRlYnJhbmQNCg0KDQoNCg== From nobody Mon Aug 25 17:27:42 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F5241A04BC for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 17:27:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.498 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.498 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, HELO_EQ_AU=0.377, HOST_EQ_AU=0.327, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RELAY_IS_203=0.994] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KrKYxvQo7UQ8 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 17:27:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ipxano.tcif.telstra.com.au (ipxano.tcif.telstra.com.au [203.35.82.200]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F375F1A0411 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 17:27:37 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.04,400,1406556000"; d="scan'208";a="221250255" Received: from unknown (HELO ipcani.tcif.telstra.com.au) ([10.97.216.200]) by ipoani.tcif.telstra.com.au with ESMTP; 26 Aug 2014 10:17:20 +1000 X-IronPort-AV: E=McAfee;i="5600,1067,7541"; a="195420029" Received: from wsmsg3702.srv.dir.telstra.com ([172.49.40.170]) by ipcani.tcif.telstra.com.au with ESMTP; 26 Aug 2014 10:27:36 +1000 Received: from WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com ([172.49.40.159]) by WSMSG3702.srv.dir.telstra.com ([172.49.40.170]) with mapi; Tue, 26 Aug 2014 10:27:36 +1000 From: "Manger, James" To: IETF JSON WG Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 10:27:34 +1000 Thread-Topic: [Json] NUDGE: Re: Second WG Last Call for json-text-sequence Thread-Index: AQHPvvu6xFwZZOtQgkaBpQceKjcJRpve0l+AgAASDgCAAGLIgIACI02AgABncYD//570AIAAZmKA//+fQACAAIybkA== Message-ID: <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E127C6DE3DC4@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> References: <20140822063216.GA5909@localhost> <20140823181547.GA3976@mercury.ccil.org> <20140823192023.GT5909@localhost> <20140824011357.GC3598@mercury.ccil.org> <5232D2C3-39D6-4DCF-865F-07E01EB1BC98@cisco.com> <20140825160303.GB25210@mercury.ccil.org> <8FA81D92-105D-47F4-8934-8526B436DAAF@cisco.com> <20140825162209.GC25210@mercury.ccil.org> <019AF41C-5B4F-4476-A1E5-591216F7C73D@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <019AF41C-5B4F-4476-A1E5-591216F7C73D@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US, en-AU Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US, en-AU Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/QWe-0dhxSzSecm8d92UiinLLywI Subject: Re: [Json] NUDGE: Re: Second WG Last Call for json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 00:27:40 -0000 > 1*RS *(JSON-text 1*RS) This looks awkward. It doesn't allow a newline at the end of the file. It i= s hard to avoid a trailing newline if you edit a file with many text editor= s. We will be searching stackoverflow for how to remove trailing newlines w= hen our JSON-text-sequence tools fail. This is also likely to create very long lines of text (eg no newlines in a = whole log), which can be annoying. It doesn't allow leading whitespace or whitespace between entries, which yo= u often get inadvertently from web templating schemes (eg .jsp files). -- James Manger From nobody Mon Aug 25 21:11:43 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38AE41A0716 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 21:11:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.269 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.269 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.668, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OOfLGOB6mkOI for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 21:11:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C30291A0710 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 21:11:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1XM86W-0003t7-1t; Tue, 26 Aug 2014 00:11:32 -0400 Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 00:11:32 -0400 From: John Cowan To: "Manger, James" Message-ID: <20140826041131.GA5839@mercury.ccil.org> References: <20140823181547.GA3976@mercury.ccil.org> <20140823192023.GT5909@localhost> <20140824011357.GC3598@mercury.ccil.org> <5232D2C3-39D6-4DCF-865F-07E01EB1BC98@cisco.com> <20140825160303.GB25210@mercury.ccil.org> <8FA81D92-105D-47F4-8934-8526B436DAAF@cisco.com> <20140825162209.GC25210@mercury.ccil.org> <019AF41C-5B4F-4476-A1E5-591216F7C73D@cisco.com> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E127C6DE3DC4@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E127C6DE3DC4@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Sender: John Cowan Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/FyyTP1EaqIzJn9JyRPNeh4hR9kA Cc: IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] NUDGE: Re: Second WG Last Call for json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 04:11:40 -0000 Manger, James scripsit: > > 1*RS *(JSON-text 1*RS) > > This looks awkward. It doesn't allow a newline at the end of the > file. It is hard to avoid a trailing newline if you edit a file with > many text editors. We will be searching stackoverflow for how to remove > trailing newlines when our JSON-text-sequence tools fail. Eh, it's unquoted whitespace. No reason to choke on it. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org I am a member of a civilization. --David Brin From nobody Mon Aug 25 22:09:18 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CDBE1A06D9 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 22:09:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.044 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.044 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ln24mggqYcNo for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 22:09:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a36.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB6AB1A0653 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 22:09:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a36.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a36.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9364677805B for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 22:09:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:cc:content-type; s=cryptonector.com; bh=QOEPJW8bROSnVQCAXhYN xtQO18o=; b=NzNcFyN6bY7yUDs+an1JU52Ilf+k5qr71rXxKurzg2wuB5Fy/11c x3YMLnqsaBx97rxmtmbBW3hcn25J8zfe8v+m5MlTdLOpG6JYoRHHnZOc9I+8OPW9 TEv2qatizLh89JFk3sTB2vOEgN+M7xHSoh12AIJVmIZdqjgcWlUiKZw= Received: from mail-wg0-f41.google.com (mail-wg0-f41.google.com [74.125.82.41]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a36.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 48652778057 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 22:09:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wg0-f41.google.com with SMTP id z12so14200367wgg.24 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 22:09:06 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.178.10 with SMTP id cu10mr274203wjc.113.1409029746052; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 22:09:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.231.131 with HTTP; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 22:09:05 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <019AF41C-5B4F-4476-A1E5-591216F7C73D@cisco.com> References: <20140822063216.GA5909@localhost> <20140823181547.GA3976@mercury.ccil.org> <20140823192023.GT5909@localhost> <20140824011357.GC3598@mercury.ccil.org> <5232D2C3-39D6-4DCF-865F-07E01EB1BC98@cisco.com> <20140825160303.GB25210@mercury.ccil.org> <8FA81D92-105D-47F4-8934-8526B436DAAF@cisco.com> <20140825162209.GC25210@mercury.ccil.org> <019AF41C-5B4F-4476-A1E5-591216F7C73D@cisco.com> Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 00:09:05 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: "Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/kxcfCNAppTob6ep3ElSL1ycc5j0 Cc: Tim Bray , John Cowan , Paul Hoffman , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] NUDGE: Re: Second WG Last Call for json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 05:09:10 -0000 I don't think we need to cover the incomplete JSON text case with ABNF. Obviously that would be a lot of work; we'd most likely handwave around it anyways. My proposal is that we RECOMMEND or REQUIRE (in prose) that the encoder follow any top-level numbers with either a ws or an RS -- they MAY also do it for all texts if that's easier. Then we should leave the ABNF as-is in -06. Extra RSes are obviously fine. Nico -- From nobody Mon Aug 25 22:12:00 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D89F1A06E7 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 22:11:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.202 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.202 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_AU=0.377, HOST_EQ_AU=0.327, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RELAY_IS_203=0.994] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9nJQ1oQBFQsG for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 22:11:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ipxbno.tcif.telstra.com.au (ipxbno.tcif.telstra.com.au [203.35.82.204]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D53F11A06D9 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 22:11:56 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.04,401,1406556000"; d="scan'208";a="27242755" Received: from unknown (HELO ipcbni.tcif.telstra.com.au) ([10.97.216.204]) by ipobni.tcif.telstra.com.au with ESMTP; 26 Aug 2014 14:59:50 +1000 X-IronPort-AV: E=McAfee;i="5600,1067,7541"; a="242318641" Received: from wsmsg3707.srv.dir.telstra.com ([172.49.40.81]) by ipcbni.tcif.telstra.com.au with ESMTP; 26 Aug 2014 15:11:53 +1000 Received: from WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com ([172.49.40.159]) by wsmsg3707.srv.dir.telstra.com ([172.49.40.81]) with mapi; Tue, 26 Aug 2014 15:11:53 +1000 From: "Manger, James" To: John Cowan Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 15:11:52 +1000 Thread-Topic: [Json] NUDGE: Re: Second WG Last Call for json-text-sequence Thread-Index: Ac/A49b6ajE5teUETN2GP3v/9TIG6QAAmRwg Message-ID: <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E127C6DE44B9@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> References: <20140823181547.GA3976@mercury.ccil.org> <20140823192023.GT5909@localhost> <20140824011357.GC3598@mercury.ccil.org> <5232D2C3-39D6-4DCF-865F-07E01EB1BC98@cisco.com> <20140825160303.GB25210@mercury.ccil.org> <8FA81D92-105D-47F4-8934-8526B436DAAF@cisco.com> <20140825162209.GC25210@mercury.ccil.org> <019AF41C-5B4F-4476-A1E5-591216F7C73D@cisco.com> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E127C6DE3DC4@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> <20140826041131.GA5839@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20140826041131.GA5839@mercury.ccil.org> Accept-Language: en-US, en-AU Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US, en-AU Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/hu2XdSKB2XkugsQ4pJN9BTbjr_k Cc: IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] NUDGE: Re: Second WG Last Call for json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 05:11:58 -0000 >>> 1*RS *(JSON-text 1*RS) =20 >> This looks awkward. It doesn't allow a newline at the end of the file.=20 >> It is hard to avoid a trailing newline if you edit a file with many=20 >> text editors. We will be searching stackoverflow for how to remove=20 >> trailing newlines when our JSON-text-sequence tools fail. > Eh, it's unquoted whitespace. No reason to choke on it. Whitespace is allowed as part of JSON-text, but this ABNF doesn't allow it = beyond the RS boundaries. The following 16-byte file would fail: 123\n {"a":2}\n -- James Manger From nobody Mon Aug 25 22:30:38 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 872EB1A06F6 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 22:30:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.55 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EQ2qx-xPfZ-f for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 22:30:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.web.de (mout.web.de [212.227.15.4]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C3ADE1A06F5 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 22:30:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from newyork.local.box ([80.187.112.129]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb003) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0M9ome-1XBAy82SS0-00B3Kb for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2014 07:30:32 +0200 Message-ID: <53FC1B78.2090709@drees.name> Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 07:30:32 +0200 From: Stefan Drees User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.8; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: json@ietf.org References: <20140823181547.GA3976@mercury.ccil.org> <20140823192023.GT5909@localhost> <20140824011357.GC3598@mercury.ccil.org> <5232D2C3-39D6-4DCF-865F-07E01EB1BC98@cisco.com> <20140825160303.GB25210@mercury.ccil.org> <8FA81D92-105D-47F4-8934-8526B436DAAF@cisco.com> <20140825162209.GC25210@mercury.ccil.org> <019AF41C-5B4F-4476-A1E5-591216F7C73D@cisco.com> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E127C6DE3DC4@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> <20140826041131.GA5839@mercury.ccil.org> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E127C6DE44B9@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> In-Reply-To: <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E127C6DE44B9@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:wYi13u1yyBu/jfuWZ9NawsBUHJJ11VTkkMrSnPYYkjOMjesaeU/ XbXvQNik5oA7r96qSJnhWIg04WObsXze2iEmwDutz2x1w7pkYlh2+84e7tqXJg/rYCE5b4t q0Owdt6uoTb200CS7D7lhH79AXDQG34b8f75lFDOPdAo1i61X+CKQW3Opq9qv4N6Up26cXf vCYqtrpkil28C92OFFZpQ== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1; Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/9vA_X3QmBZ6H7frhd1MnnGBZqH0 Subject: Re: [Json] NUDGE: Re: Second WG Last Call for json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: stefan@drees.name List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 05:30:36 -0000 On 2014-08-26 07:11 +02:00, James Manger wrote: >>>> 1*RS *(JSON-text 1*RS) > >>> This looks awkward. It doesn't allow a newline at the end of the file. >>> It is hard to avoid a trailing newline if you edit a file with many >>> text editors. We will be searching stackoverflow for how to remove >>> trailing newlines when our JSON-text-sequence tools fail. > >> Eh, it's unquoted whitespace. No reason to choke on it. > > Whitespace is allowed as part of JSON-text, but this ABNF doesn't allow it beyond the RS boundaries. > > The following 16-byte file would fail: > > 123\n > {"a":2}\n nice example IMO that could easily come out of a robust multi-producer setting. Stefan\n From nobody Mon Aug 25 22:49:01 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 146121A0487 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 22:49:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.666 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.666 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dWpC_U-LULE1 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 22:48:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a36.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6154A1A03EA for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 22:48:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a36.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a36.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 429A1778061; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 22:48:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h=date :from:to:cc:subject:message-id:references:mime-version :content-type:in-reply-to; s=cryptonector.com; bh=bByujSxfZ5CND6 KlpeVnPXixjsE=; b=ju8aHFVQFdGYyjsZ3jF1fllTVYN/e6ryeaG5lvyHa3IGRy akZ0SgqxBpvE0PuYswJdkBaSFQ8akPMFMmvUcnjUfHlaQLeon21Ny29KXzIo/QuG Jo8sGK8zRv0P4EhMRGSYWBpPEDnLxVOa8eCMibZKqjqhKVUKLeq4AF5Aa4NHk= Received: from localhost (unknown [38.125.62.68]) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a36.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id D7B2977805F; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 22:48:58 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 00:48:58 -0500 From: Nico Williams To: "Manger, James" Message-ID: <20140826054857.GB20264@localhost> References: <20140823192023.GT5909@localhost> <20140824011357.GC3598@mercury.ccil.org> <5232D2C3-39D6-4DCF-865F-07E01EB1BC98@cisco.com> <20140825160303.GB25210@mercury.ccil.org> <8FA81D92-105D-47F4-8934-8526B436DAAF@cisco.com> <20140825162209.GC25210@mercury.ccil.org> <019AF41C-5B4F-4476-A1E5-591216F7C73D@cisco.com> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E127C6DE3DC4@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> <20140826041131.GA5839@mercury.ccil.org> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E127C6DE44B9@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E127C6DE44B9@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/O671nb-VdlfQlmfMIzsYvlbXQd0 Cc: John Cowan , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] NUDGE: Re: Second WG Last Call for json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 05:49:00 -0000 On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 03:11:52PM +1000, Manger, James wrote: > >>> 1*RS *(JSON-text 1*RS) > > >> This looks awkward. It doesn't allow a newline at the end of the file. > >> It is hard to avoid a trailing newline if you edit a file with many > >> text editors. We will be searching stackoverflow for how to remove > >> trailing newlines when our JSON-text-sequence tools fail. > > > Eh, it's unquoted whitespace. No reason to choke on it. > > Whitespace is allowed as part of JSON-text, but this ABNF doesn't allow it beyond the RS boundaries. > > The following 16-byte file would fail: > > 123\n > {"a":2}\n Why would it? The I-D says that incomplete/invalid texts SHOULD NOT result in failure. We don't have write an ABNF rule for invalid-JSON-text since it's obviously anything (other than RS!) that doesn't match JSON-text. (We could write a rule for invalid-JSON-text: it'd be a sequence 1* of any bytes other than RS! But this seems tedious because no one is going to write a parser (or encoder) only from the ABNF.) Nico -- From nobody Mon Aug 25 22:58:41 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 840E51A0487 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 22:58:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.044 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.044 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dd02xetjEaB1 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 22:58:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a26.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C72D81A0653 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 22:58:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a26.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a26.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A610DB805B for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 22:58:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s= cryptonector.com; bh=hpKmcJMnd1veVKi4mLk/IBf9MHU=; b=LXWKlg4RpMy GJwTWt4LmGjASjTnElNoozvA29iPL4HC3dbtV8LMRaHvG02T3beb3dnXS793O6Av Nu01t26MtzgLJ20FsFTNzuNc8ineQ3DJJyXWjzNlEhykGmMm+tlsrivNdjAL+/fW A5vViC9dOYCUayBEAfiKs4uUOamTfwtA= Received: from mail-we0-f181.google.com (mail-we0-f181.google.com [74.125.82.181]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a26.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 59768B8058 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 22:58:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-we0-f181.google.com with SMTP id k48so14261611wev.12 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 22:58:37 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.89.168 with SMTP id bp8mr27097890wjb.53.1409032717249; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 22:58:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.231.131 with HTTP; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 22:58:37 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <0B4F9183-B9F1-47FF-AECB-91CE7A5A747C@cisco.com> Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 00:58:37 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: Tim Bray Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/q0uCy2oWRhTUe8dNfunea69XE08 Cc: Paul Hoffman , Joe Hildebrand , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] JSON-text for sequences X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 05:58:39 -0000 On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 1:45 PM, Tim Bray wrote: > Well, Nico=E2=80=99s nice =E2=80=9Cnot necessarily fatal=E2=80=9D section= is another way of > achieving the same goal without trying to push nondeterministic situation= s > into abnf. +1. ABNF is nice, but it's not ASN.1, and I doubt anyone will be generating code from it for this. Nico -- From nobody Mon Aug 25 22:59:07 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7CBF1A06F8 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 22:59:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.044 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.044 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YqyG1FXp_4CO for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 22:59:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a87.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D83F21A0722 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 22:59:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a87.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a87.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FE9D26C05E for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 22:59:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s= cryptonector.com; bh=JkFh8AKGMhEW6ngNjymMGxVblqE=; b=VjTsacJausL lqfs0ijryekuBbcmat5WY6paIIchPhnmE4cGgqqlcVU3p+lH09A/t5oYFWeROdrB HmoFAtDAX03TP4CE65QMl2HasmA9mJXwnXln1Vtjzi2KH18+Rf5CBnsmuSc9Q9cx WFs9iSONl/ONl2u61YEAnShwzV51mrHA= Received: from mail-we0-f180.google.com (mail-we0-f180.google.com [74.125.82.180]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a87.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 443DB26C05B for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 22:59:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-we0-f180.google.com with SMTP id w61so14172710wes.39 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 22:59:00 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.75.17 with SMTP id y17mr19428387wiv.3.1409032740048; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 22:59:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.231.131 with HTTP; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 22:59:00 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <0B4F9183-B9F1-47FF-AECB-91CE7A5A747C@cisco.com> Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 00:59:00 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: "Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/FPitCUR-V6Gjj2GqPBMh6WUmlU4 Cc: Tim Bray , Paul Hoffman , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] JSON-text for sequences X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 05:59:05 -0000 On Mon, Aug 25, 2014 at 4:22 PM, Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr) wrote: > On 8/25/14, 6:45 PM, "Tim Bray" wrote: > >>Well, Nico=E2=80=99s nice =E2=80=9Cnot necessarily fatal=E2=80=9D section= is another way of >>achieving the same goal without trying to push nondeterministic >>situations into abnf. > > Can we put a couple of extra words in the comment at least? Example: > > JSON-text =3D Sure! From nobody Mon Aug 25 23:14:20 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03E241A0722 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 23:14:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gmOMtbkPKIgh for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 23:14:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E70B11A0721 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 23:14:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.2.160] ([93.217.85.15]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx002) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MCLcP-1XDbIQ2itl-0099vh; Tue, 26 Aug 2014 08:14:11 +0200 Message-ID: <53FC25AE.7000005@gmx.de> Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 08:14:06 +0200 From: Julian Reschke User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)" , Tim Bray , Paul Hoffman References: <0B4F9183-B9F1-47FF-AECB-91CE7A5A747C@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:lC1oHwFr3304GiTFZEW2j5Qfba2Q5OvuLex/Ypgcvmmtr3kfiqe qFHR/MMfFAcqpVW2EvEbl9U2ttcjMPEMnI0rqEDsuf4HvlxdUCdwy3dlegxblM7I+gWhJmj a/umTiin2ZWJIC+oxO2xzaonZa1+97dkaECAOBo06aq53N6Kut2F6LvIQ9rbWvK95TfvSN1 7fRWGBv69IV4V2HxVP1UQ== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1; Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/PQ3mIY9QCzPRJKb2e_NFHBdYoSM Cc: IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] JSON-text for sequences X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 06:14:18 -0000 On 2014-08-25 23:22, Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr) wrote: > On 8/25/14, 6:45 PM, "Tim Bray" wrote: > >> Well, Nico’s nice “not necessarily fatal” section is another way of >> achieving the same goal without trying to push nondeterministic >> situations into abnf. > > Can we put a couple of extra words in the comment at least? Example: > > JSON-text = That's the ABNF equivalent of hand-waving. If a parser is supposed not to require correct JSON, than the ABNF should be in sync with that (essentially enumerating the code points allowed here, and not saying anything more). Best regards, Julian From nobody Mon Aug 25 23:28:40 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1191B1A08BE for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 23:28:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.202 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.202 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_AU=0.377, HOST_EQ_AU=0.327, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RELAY_IS_203=0.994] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id t6GKpio-w7R9 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 23:28:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ipxcvo.tcif.telstra.com.au (ipxcvo.tcif.telstra.com.au [203.35.135.208]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9A541A0894 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 23:28:37 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.04,402,1406556000"; d="scan'208";a="33280006" Received: from unknown (HELO ipccvi.tcif.telstra.com.au) ([10.97.217.208]) by ipocvi.tcif.telstra.com.au with ESMTP; 26 Aug 2014 16:15:41 +1000 X-IronPort-AV: E=McAfee;i="5600,1067,7541"; a="241632073" Received: from wsmsg3755.srv.dir.telstra.com ([172.49.40.196]) by ipccvi.tcif.telstra.com.au with ESMTP; 26 Aug 2014 16:28:36 +1000 Received: from WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com ([172.49.40.159]) by WSMSG3755.srv.dir.telstra.com ([172.49.40.196]) with mapi; Tue, 26 Aug 2014 16:28:35 +1000 From: "Manger, James" To: Nico Williams Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 16:28:34 +1000 Thread-Topic: [Json] NUDGE: Re: Second WG Last Call for json-text-sequence Thread-Index: Ac/A8XJiZIMjoSDcRsCsPIicExFxtwABBdEw Message-ID: <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E127C6DE468B@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> References: <20140823192023.GT5909@localhost> <20140824011357.GC3598@mercury.ccil.org> <5232D2C3-39D6-4DCF-865F-07E01EB1BC98@cisco.com> <20140825160303.GB25210@mercury.ccil.org> <8FA81D92-105D-47F4-8934-8526B436DAAF@cisco.com> <20140825162209.GC25210@mercury.ccil.org> <019AF41C-5B4F-4476-A1E5-591216F7C73D@cisco.com> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E127C6DE3DC4@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> <20140826041131.GA5839@mercury.ccil.org> <255B9BB34FB7D647A506DC292726F6E127C6DE44B9@WSMSG3153V.srv.dir.telstra.com> <20140826054857.GB20264@localhost> In-Reply-To: <20140826054857.GB20264@localhost> Accept-Language: en-US, en-AU Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US, en-AU Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/ztx99Re-9akG6aULCFqAsd6AHKk Cc: John Cowan , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] NUDGE: Re: Second WG Last Call for json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 06:28:39 -0000 >> Whitespace is allowed as part of JSON-text, but this ABNF doesn't allow = it beyond the RS boundaries. >>=20 >> The following 16-byte file would fail: >>=20 >> 123\n >> {"a":2}\n > Why would it? The I-D says that incomplete/invalid texts SHOULD NOT resu= lt in failure. We don't have write an ABNF rule for invalid-JSON-text sinc= e it's obviously anything (other than RS!) that doesn't match JSON-text. But I don't want a trailing newline treated as an incomplete JSON text that= indicates a write was truncated. I don't want this example reported to the= app as: 4 entries; [number, invalid, object, invalid]. -- James Manger From nobody Mon Aug 25 23:41:34 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE2461A093B for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 23:41:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.044 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.044 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jq8QHNdVJINw for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 23:41:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a85.g.dreamhost.com (sub4.mail.dreamhost.com [69.163.253.135]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DDD11A0921 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 23:41:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from homiemail-a85.g.dreamhost.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by homiemail-a85.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBE60BBA06A for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 23:41:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; h= mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from :to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s= cryptonector.com; bh=XQHhjck/1wEa0nZbCsKg0IRPYFk=; b=GemL19ON83S asukJmGW5UxJEiQH6IY5n65a1NhgRQvYx7jgyKYo1i9w9DoJFICJg2B6keGhMnFS ni0Yidbk33EIkpgj9rGZTt61hEvFfFmtDeXfBU8kbfbw16zs6qJLgzxxUgy07sNX lE73yXkd2zqGDYkLt1QUZ4pf6GRQ8uqA= Received: from mail-we0-f180.google.com (mail-we0-f180.google.com [74.125.82.180]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by homiemail-a85.g.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6BDB6BBA065 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 23:41:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-we0-f180.google.com with SMTP id w61so14215230wes.39 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 23:41:27 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.13.195 with SMTP id j3mr442278wic.70.1409035287420; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 23:41:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.231.131 with HTTP; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 23:41:27 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <53FC25AE.7000005@gmx.de> References: <0B4F9183-B9F1-47FF-AECB-91CE7A5A747C@cisco.com> <53FC25AE.7000005@gmx.de> Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 01:41:27 -0500 Message-ID: From: Nico Williams To: Julian Reschke Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/O_PXf0Gd3Kma4Oylj2fmfExzNJU Cc: Tim Bray , Paul Hoffman , "Joe Hildebrand \(jhildebr\)" , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] JSON-text for sequences X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 06:41:29 -0000 On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 1:14 AM, Julian Reschke wro= te: > On 2014-08-25 23:22, Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr) wrote: >> >> On 8/25/14, 6:45 PM, "Tim Bray" wrote: >> >>> Well, Nico=E2=80=99s nice =E2=80=9Cnot necessarily fatal=E2=80=9D secti= on is another way of >>> achieving the same goal without trying to push nondeterministic >>> situations into abnf. >> >> >> Can we put a couple of extra words in the comment at least? Example: >> >> JSON-text =3D > > > That's the ABNF equivalent of hand-waving. > > If a parser is supposed not to require correct JSON, than the ABNF should= be > in sync with that (essentially enumerating the code points allowed here, = and > not saying anything more). Yes, it is handwaving. It'd be trivial to write the ABNF so any octet is anllowed other than RS, in between RSes, and then we's say "attempt to parse the entry as a JSON-text". Would that be better? We do this sort of thing in ASN.1-land all the time: OCTET STRING with a comment saying what's meant to be in the OCTET STRING. Nico -- From nobody Mon Aug 25 23:54:49 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1DDF1A04B9 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 23:54:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id B-mPSWjT2RqF for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 23:54:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.17.22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1AD4D1A0266 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 2014 23:54:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.2.160] ([93.217.85.15]) by mail.gmx.com (mrgmx103) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0LcBPV-1WdRlK2L5h-00jW05; Tue, 26 Aug 2014 08:54:39 +0200 Message-ID: <53FC2F2A.9010508@gmx.de> Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 08:54:34 +0200 From: Julian Reschke User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nico Williams References: <0B4F9183-B9F1-47FF-AECB-91CE7A5A747C@cisco.com> <53FC25AE.7000005@gmx.de> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:Y55pH7/piZvzU0pPA6vqVhVpJ1Y6+6Sj6a9Ju7xd5cTFrvRNUHf HOydxaHPSA3+v5mM7dVjXFwYvjQe0sz173laCsdLAvESsPbXdiqDQlJNFULDrbHLBeVQ2YC ePuj6fMNaBGLMvPHWCUaRbQ2TdV5KRr3eMnIneTXls0+pvFdeGR/ZiUHTXwJg9/RPtUUQXG 6iF93mbPqM+fx55Djl23w== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1; Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/OYLE7k5QELLTqBLdWAR9q1tITB8 Cc: Tim Bray , Paul Hoffman , "Joe Hildebrand \(jhildebr\)" , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] JSON-text for sequences X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 06:54:47 -0000 On 2014-08-26 08:41, Nico Williams wrote: > On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 1:14 AM, Julian Reschke wrote: >> On 2014-08-25 23:22, Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr) wrote: >>> >>> On 8/25/14, 6:45 PM, "Tim Bray" wrote: >>> >>>> Well, Nico’s nice “not necessarily fatal” section is another way of >>>> achieving the same goal without trying to push nondeterministic >>>> situations into abnf. >>> >>> >>> Can we put a couple of extra words in the comment at least? Example: >>> >>> JSON-text = >> >> >> That's the ABNF equivalent of hand-waving. >> >> If a parser is supposed not to require correct JSON, than the ABNF should be >> in sync with that (essentially enumerating the code points allowed here, and >> not saying anything more). > > Yes, it is handwaving. It'd be trivial to write the ABNF so any octet > is anllowed > other than RS, in between RSes, and then we's say "attempt to parse > the entry as a JSON-text". Would that be better? Yes. That would make it very lcear how the format is parsed. > We do this sort of thing in ASN.1-land all the time: OCTET STRING with > a comment saying what's meant to be in the OCTET STRING. I'd recommend to have a precise ABNF description of the character ranges allowed, and to have a comment such as "all characters except RS" (if that's what it is...). Best regards, Julian From nobody Tue Aug 26 09:17:20 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88D4D1A8760 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2014 09:17:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.169 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.169 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.668, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TpyOjBupGWkz for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2014 09:17:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com [173.37.86.74]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 018B61A0019 for ; Tue, 26 Aug 2014 09:17:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1644; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1409069836; x=1410279436; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-id:content-transfer-encoding: mime-version; bh=z7JfUTz0xDhA1zWRW7aBNu4f6VBWCik9FpKTqtOpwaQ=; b=Ha8/tHgX2fMaxJE/RyjOuncYzyysVfHTZ4xOlLb2Xx6N5wXuOP+Lymev 5PDRQ7j2vrFV3bACNlvwShFDFpD7jf0WvGDP/UOCFj5ChNXoqxDkSuqRN zDCuiWNa+M3Hrrj541VRQ65isy6nvxO6cLXB3nh8TXRfDwh4qwU/XDUDn A=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AhMFAMuy/FOtJA2N/2dsb2JhbABbgw2BKgSCeNEqARl6FneEBAEBBCMRRRACAQgaAiYCAgIwFRACBAENBYguAxGqEJUeF4Esi3OBZBYzB4J5NoEdAQSRJosjlQyBZB6BXGyBB0GBBwEBAQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.04,405,1406592000"; d="scan'208";a="350394563" Received: from alln-core-8.cisco.com ([173.36.13.141]) by rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 26 Aug 2014 16:17:03 +0000 Received: from xhc-rcd-x07.cisco.com (xhc-rcd-x07.cisco.com [173.37.183.81]) by alln-core-8.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s7QGH2UD010358 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Tue, 26 Aug 2014 16:17:02 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com ([169.254.15.68]) by xhc-rcd-x07.cisco.com ([173.37.183.81]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Tue, 26 Aug 2014 11:17:02 -0500 From: "Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)" To: Julian Reschke , Nico Williams Thread-Topic: [Json] JSON-text for sequences Thread-Index: AQHPwIBu+enPIAmKF02/e/fjJhkkoJvh2o6A//+hDwCAAH3zAIAAAtSA///HIwCAAPkrAIAAB6SAgAADqgCAADieAA== Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 16:17:01 +0000 Message-ID: <210960B1-C939-477D-ADC6-F4C0E516633C@cisco.com> References: <0B4F9183-B9F1-47FF-AECB-91CE7A5A747C@cisco.com> <53FC25AE.7000005@gmx.de> <53FC2F2A.9010508@gmx.de> In-Reply-To: <53FC2F2A.9010508@gmx.de> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/15.3.0.140730 x-originating-ip: [10.129.24.156] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <840B557703645F4BAC38ABAB5029CC67@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/Dq9qd70lWfTrqL3ZXCqAsMD_hSo Cc: Tim Bray , Paul Hoffman , IETF JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] JSON-text for sequences X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 16:17:18 -0000 T24gOC8yNi8xNCwgNjo1NCBBTSwgIkp1bGlhbiBSZXNjaGtlIiA8anVsaWFuLnJlc2Noa2VAZ214 LmRlPiB3cm90ZToNCg0KPkknZCByZWNvbW1lbmQgdG8gaGF2ZSBhIHByZWNpc2UgQUJORiBkZXNj cmlwdGlvbiBvZiB0aGUgY2hhcmFjdGVyIHJhbmdlcyANCj5hbGxvd2VkLCBhbmQgdG8gaGF2ZSBh IGNvbW1lbnQgc3VjaCBhcyAiYWxsIGNoYXJhY3RlcnMgZXhjZXB0IFJTIiAoaWYgDQo+dGhhdCdz IHdoYXQgaXQgaXMuLi4pLg0KDQpJIHRoaW5rIHRoYXQncyByaWdodCwgc2luY2UgeW91IGRvbid0 IHdhbnQgdGhlIHBhcnNlciB0byBjaG9rZSBldmVuIGlmIA0Kc29tZSBtYW5nbGVkIFVURjggY29t ZXMgaW4gdGhlIEpTT04gcGllY2UuDQoNClNvOg0KDQpKU09OLXNlcXVlbmNlID0gKigxKlJTIHBv dGVudGlhbC1KU09OKSA8b3Igd2hhdGV2ZXIgd2UgZGVjaWRlPg0KICAgICBSUyA9ICV4MUU7IFNl ZSBSRkMyMA0KcG90ZW50aWFsLUpTT04gPSAqbm90LVJTDQpub3QtUlMgPSAleDAxLTFEIC8gJXgx Ri1GRg0KDQpUaGlzIG1ha2VzIGl0IGNsZWFyIHRoYXQgeW91J3JlIHBhcnNpbmcgYnl0ZXMgYXQg dGhpcyBsZXZlbCwgTk9UIGFueSANCnVuaWNvZGUgZW5jb2RpbmcuICBXZSBwcm9iYWJseSBoYXZl ICphbHdheXMqIG5lZWRlZCBzb21lIHRleHQgYWJvdXQgDQplbmNvZGluZyBpbiB0aGUgZHJhZnQs IHNvIEkgc3VnZ2VzdCBhZGRpbmcgYSBzZWN0aW9uOg0KDQoNCjIueCBFbmNvZGluZw0KDQpUaGUg Zm9ybWF0LCB3aGVuIGVuY29kZWQgaW50byBieXRlcyBmb3IgdHJhbnNtaXNzaW9uIG9yIHN0b3Jh Z2UsIE1VU1QgYmUgDQpzdG9yZWQgYXMgVVRGLTgsIGhvd2V2ZXIgY29uc3VtZXJzIG9mIHRoZSBm b3JtYXQgTVVTVCBwcm9jZXNzIA0KcG90ZW50aWFsLUpTT04gaXRlbXMgd2l0aCBpbnZhbGlkIGVu Y29kaW5nIGluIHRoZSBzYW1lIHdheSB0aGV5IHByb2Nlc3MgDQpvdGhlciBpbnZhbGlkIEpTT04g KGUuZy4gaWdub3JlIHRoZSBlcnJvciBhbmQgbW92ZSB0byB0aGUgbmV4dCBSUykuDQoNCihvciBz b21ldGhpbmcuICB0aGF0J3MganVzdCBhIHN0YXJ0aW5nIHBvaW50KQ0KDQpBbmQgdGhlbiBtb2Rp Znkgc2VjdGlvbiAyLjEgdG8gYWxzbyBleHBsaWNpdGx5IGNvdmVyIGFsbCBpbnZhbGlkIEpTT04s IG5vdCANCmp1c3QgaW5jb21wbGV0ZSBKU09OLg0KDQotLSANCkpvZSBIaWxkZWJyYW5kDQoNCg0K DQo= From nobody Thu Aug 28 03:06:41 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA7EB1A6F41 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2014 03:06:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.44 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.44 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.001, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.668] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MdlhggUW1ipi for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2014 03:06:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scintmta01-14.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scintmta01-14.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.253.64]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5B311A6F3B for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2014 03:06:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmeg01-14.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.253.15]) by scintmta01-14.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5436232E49E; Thu, 28 Aug 2014 19:05:48 +0900 (JST) Received: from itmail2.it.aoyama.ac.jp (unknown [133.2.206.134]) by scmeg01-14.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp with smtp id 4d6c_4484_37768e10_410c_43e4_9587_08a2ccb30bf4; Thu, 28 Aug 2014 19:05:47 +0900 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (unknown [133.2.210.1]) by itmail2.it.aoyama.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E1C3BF4A9; Thu, 28 Aug 2014 19:05:47 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <53FEFEF1.7050209@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2014 19:05:37 +0900 From: =?UTF-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Hoffman , IETF JSON WG References: <20140822063216.GA5909@localhost> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/6ir7jyVn7Hg3gKU1w75hoQcEqow Subject: Re: [Json] NUDGE: Re: Second WG Last Call for json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2014 10:06:39 -0000 On 2014/08/24 00:08, Paul Hoffman wrote: > As much as it is fun to keep debating old topics, it would help the WG if folks could focus on the current work. We would like to finish up, and the following WG LC is a way for us to determine how close we are to that. Given the position I have expressed for the previous last call (and/or earlier), I haven't reread the latest draft because I have absolutely no indication that my position would change. Also, there is still a lack of confirming comments (something along the lines of 'I read it - please ship it'). Even the above repeated begging from Paul to help the chairs determine consensus has only let to more bikeshedding. Given this, I see ample (not explicit but implicit) support for my position that trying to spec "JSON text sequences" has failed. The format simply doesn't provide enough differentiation from a JSON array (*), and too much possibility for useless variation. Regards, Martin. (*) Requiring RS at the start and the end of the whole thing comes terribly close to '[' and ']' at the beginning and the end of a JSON array. > --Paul Hoffman > > On Aug 22, 2014, at 10:34 AM, Paul Hoffman wrote: > >> Greetings again. The first WG Last Call ended up with no consensus about whether the document was useful as it stood. Nico has made a few rounds of changes, and so I'd like to ask folks to read it again, fresh. >> >> Please respond on the list whether the technical proposal in the new document could be useful in meeting the use cases and scenarios described in the document. Note that this is *not* a request for comments about whether or not you liked the old proposal better; it is a request about the current document. >> >> The current document: >> >> URL: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-06.txt >> Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-json-text-sequence/ >> Htmlized: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-06 >> Diff: http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-json-text-sequence-06 > > _______________________________________________ > json mailing list > json@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json > From nobody Thu Aug 28 10:13:53 2014 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 975C51A883A for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2014 10:13:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.869 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.869 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.668, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NhO_3wAL_je3 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2014 10:13:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com [173.37.86.79]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D9B9E1A8844 for ; Thu, 28 Aug 2014 10:13:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1348; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1409245989; x=1410455589; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: content-id:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=8SWaPegpilqSmrHKhwgvyLD6x8UZIc4hSUsN1QQJbEc=; b=YzYlThJJ6NeCxkESXIa/NfgXdTs6hdUVvAJuuBaZS9qrN/R0CPFyHPfu OX/B1Cz8PVaG2I2XZxu9dszppzkfM3L1yHisemSnhGAiEad1FjVvyYpNb C+eUCc4O0gCmUoyx49nIRJTRQNwpcruEce+CpjT8bhWA6XzjwDya5gdm7 s=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: Ag0FAAdi/1OtJA2J/2dsb2JhbABbDoJ/gSoEgnjRAAEZgQIWd4QEAQEEHQYRVQIBCBoCJgICAjAVEAIEARKIQqs0lDcXgSyNbTqCeTaBHQWRL4srlR2DHEJsgUiBBwEBAQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.04,418,1406592000"; d="scan'208";a="351024163" Received: from alln-core-4.cisco.com ([173.36.13.137]) by rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com with ESMTP; 28 Aug 2014 17:13:08 +0000 Received: from xhc-aln-x12.cisco.com (xhc-aln-x12.cisco.com [173.36.12.86]) by alln-core-4.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id s7SHD7Uj014131 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=FAIL); Thu, 28 Aug 2014 17:13:07 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-x10.cisco.com ([169.254.15.68]) by xhc-aln-x12.cisco.com ([173.36.12.86]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Thu, 28 Aug 2014 12:13:07 -0500 From: "Joe Hildebrand (jhildebr)" To: =?utf-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= , "Paul Hoffman" , IETF JSON WG Thread-Topic: [Json] NUDGE: Re: Second WG Last Call for json-text-sequence Thread-Index: AQHPwqfJ/ImJvqlILEePC9T5eHSoN5vmMKoA Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2014 17:13:06 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20140822063216.GA5909@localhost> <53FEFEF1.7050209@it.aoyama.ac.jp> In-Reply-To: <53FEFEF1.7050209@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/15.3.0.140730 x-originating-ip: [10.129.24.156] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/json/eoodTHwPsbWnISuqa2ejK53y_30 Subject: Re: [Json] NUDGE: Re: Second WG Last Call for json-text-sequence X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2014 17:13:44 -0000 T24gOC8yOC8xNCwgMTA6MDUgQU0sICIiTWFydGluIEouIETDvHJzdCIiIDxkdWVyc3RAaXQuYW95 YW1hLmFjLmpwPiB3cm90ZToNCg0KPkFsc28sIHRoZXJlIGlzIHN0aWxsIGEgbGFjayBvZiBjb25m aXJtaW5nIGNvbW1lbnRzIChzb21ldGhpbmcgYWxvbmcgdGhlIA0KPmxpbmVzIG9mICdJIHJlYWQg aXQgLSBwbGVhc2Ugc2hpcCBpdCcpLiBFdmVuIHRoZSBhYm92ZSByZXBlYXRlZCBiZWdnaW5nIA0K PmZyb20gUGF1bCB0byBoZWxwIHRoZSBjaGFpcnMgZGV0ZXJtaW5lIGNvbnNlbnN1cyBoYXMgb25s eSBsZXQgdG8gbW9yZSANCj5iaWtlc2hlZGRpbmcuDQoNCkluIHRoaXMgY2FzZSwgb25lIHBlcnNv bidzIGJpa2VzaGVkIGlzIGFub3RoZXIgcGVyc29uJ3MgdGVjaG5pY2FsIGNvbmNlcm4uIA0KT25j ZSB3ZSBnZXQgdGhlIEFCTkYgc3RyYWlnaHRlbmVkIG91dCwgSSdtIGEgc3Ryb25nICsxIG9uIHB1 Ymxpc2hpbmcgdGhpcyANCmRvY3VtZW50Lg0KDQo+KCopIFJlcXVpcmluZyBSUyBhdCB0aGUgc3Rh cnQgYW5kIHRoZSBlbmQgb2YgdGhlIHdob2xlIHRoaW5nIGNvbWVzIA0KPnRlcnJpYmx5IGNsb3Nl IHRvICdbJyBhbmQgJ10nIGF0IHRoZSBiZWdpbm5pbmcgYW5kIHRoZSBlbmQgb2YgYSBKU09OIA0K PmFycmF5Lg0KDQpOb3QgdGhhdCBjbG9zZSwgYmVjYXVzZSB5b3UgY2FuIGhhdmUgbG90cyBvZiBl eHRyYSBSUydzIGluIGEgZG9jdW1lbnQsIGFuZCANCml0IHdpbGwgc3RpbGwgcGFyc2UuICBBbnkg c3RyYXkgJ10nIHdpbGwgYnJlYWsgYW4gYXJyYXkuICBJJ3ZlIHdyaXR0ZW4gdGhlIA0KY29kZSBm b3IgYm90aCBKU09OIGFycmF5cyBhbmQgWE1MIGZpbGVzIHRyeWluZyB0byBrZWVwIHRoZW0gd2Vs bC1mb3JtZWQgDQp3aWxsIGFwcGVuZGluZy4gIFRoZSBjb2RlIGlzIGVycm9yLXByb25lIGFuZCB3 aWxsIG5ldmVyIHdvcmsgd2l0aCBtdWx0aXBsZSANCndyaXRlcnMuDQoNCi0tIA0KSm9lIEhpbGRl YnJhbmQNCg0KDQoNCg==