From nobody Fri Jun 3 07:29:43 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietf.org Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA0C512D1D0; Fri, 3 Jun 2016 07:29:41 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "\"IETF Meeting Session Request Tool\"" To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.21.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20160603142941.1397.25855.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2016 07:29:41 -0700 Archived-At: Cc: json@ietf.org, linuxwolf@outer-planes.net, jsonbis-chairs@ietf.org, aamelnikov@fastmail.fm Subject: [Json] jsonbis - Not having a session at IETF 96 X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2016 14:29:42 -0000 Matthew Miller, a chair of the jsonbis working group, indicated that the jsonbis working group does not plan to hold a session at IETF 96. This message was generated and sent by the IETF Meeting Session Request Tool. From nobody Sun Jun 12 11:39:26 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietf.org Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 045E312D0CB; Sun, 12 Jun 2016 11:39:25 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.21.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20160612183925.5385.10856.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2016 11:39:25 -0700 Archived-At: Cc: json@ietf.org Subject: [Json] I-D Action: draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-01.txt X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2016 18:39:25 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Javascript Object Notation Update of the IETF. Title : The JavaScript Object Notation (JSON) Data Interchange Format Author : Tim Bray Filename : draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-01.txt Pages : 15 Date : 2016-06-12 Abstract: JavaScript Object Notation (JSON) is a lightweight, text-based, language-independent data interchange format. It was derived from the ECMAScript Programming Language Standard. JSON defines a small set of formatting rules for the portable representation of structured data. This document removes inconsistencies with other specifications of JSON, repairs specification errors, and offers experience-based interoperability guidance. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-01 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-01 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Sun Jun 12 11:43:37 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8B2512D1D2 for ; Sun, 12 Jun 2016 11:43:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=textuality-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AvfojBqPHsp9 for ; Sun, 12 Jun 2016 11:43:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qg0-x229.google.com (mail-qg0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c04::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6029612D578 for ; Sun, 12 Jun 2016 11:43:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qg0-x229.google.com with SMTP id v76so26520499qgv.3 for ; Sun, 12 Jun 2016 11:43:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=textuality-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=/eZF/7ItC/vQE0WFdHrA9Ll8+6cLLvNwmT+NSUs3gc0=; b=cum5TCSD6XB+P5L4BWnoxtDPgLWHyqD1EvzJdzmjDjpa3GjvzmCyYIHp0GB7BctWYS JkTOchCQAdIWpzajcRZgSmIVbSLLywiBhhixVDJdkXToRJTYwFCIfNIGaJvaB8B3PoR1 5t4DJG0ijkwpAypBUsyHLTqF6uTg1eXvISBxQkA2GVK6LQ51LYdN7IWVB93woh78NaPR EdGnHB2E45jzS/tQvqLEjT+/jQrFZUxrqnOIz4dUcw2rsyFzALcrXgEl8NSkbYS6usTb T+kbfCfK9eahTBVKHS2uGNDC71B6FY/23fffMn7sP70sDJAOljfe66EXfVbSMuyzetAU 1b0Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=/eZF/7ItC/vQE0WFdHrA9Ll8+6cLLvNwmT+NSUs3gc0=; b=WEGXj0pJ0mwwHM/2rx7TWNK4htRO1S1gqRoyC+79kU79bhJbXZfJhWzvBdMfP1QoDL 6oBHJy82D5EUuWX6ZNDLJz6uWaqNm+DcgHYisdXGaP6FGe4MGQj6hiWsaAKEySnvdrXW 11RCqR8ZbJGjn3RM7FoFEgAU2uMdL/uYWHq48j6b5Do/GnMgtnTB8fb/A5Q81FBZOU8z WI+Qwh3t2yBwzxgcw/9m+aErNIbkpLbH0tWp0yXBdzvbFzT2EQCXjRh+mQGEPKNBRCHt gL3eld5TEABEGagGhsqz6nt6VFlZOnmPXGGjRm7ILlr0k0bQk5baxeoG6yA/hrnkQPem X/Yw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tIya2422AuSSiW4YwQzM0dG9/DZcKPuEpq6EXC+zUX7o4Zj19tojVy8LvfjgiWxPHJJuixmH5jjsPSJrw== X-Received: by 10.140.248.2 with SMTP id t2mr10759853qhc.7.1465757011410; Sun, 12 Jun 2016 11:43:31 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.140.98.161 with HTTP; Sun, 12 Jun 2016 11:43:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [24.84.248.61] In-Reply-To: <20160612183925.5385.10856.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> References: <20160612183925.5385.10856.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Tim Bray Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2016 11:43:11 -0700 Message-ID: To: internet-drafts@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113a5a6afe4b050535192588 Archived-At: Cc: "json@ietf.org" , i-d-announce@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Json] I-D Action: draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-01.txt X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2016 18:43:36 -0000 --001a113a5a6afe4b050535192588 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BTW, I ended up revising the language a bit, in a way that might be controversial. The text we were looking at talks about the =E2=80=9Ctwo do= cuments=E2=80=9D being in sync, but really, there are three: The RFC, ECMA 404, and also ECMA 262 and its successors. I think if we=E2=80=99re promising harmony wi= th ECMA, all three have to be involved. So I revised it slightly to promise consistency between =E2=80=9Cthe specifications=E2=80=9D generally, not jus= t =E2=80=9Ctwo documents=E2=80=9D specifically. Hope that=E2=80=99s OK. On Sun, Jun 12, 2016 at 11:39 AM, wrote: > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts > directories. > This draft is a work item of the Javascript Object Notation Update of the > IETF. > > Title : The JavaScript Object Notation (JSON) Data > Interchange Format > Author : Tim Bray > Filename : draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-01.txt > Pages : 15 > Date : 2016-06-12 > > Abstract: > JavaScript Object Notation (JSON) is a lightweight, text-based, > language-independent data interchange format. It was derived from > the ECMAScript Programming Language Standard. JSON defines a small > set of formatting rules for the portable representation of structured > data. > > This document removes inconsistencies with other specifications of > JSON, repairs specification errors, and offers experience-based > interoperability guidance. > > > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis/ > > There's also a htmlized version available at: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-01 > > A diff from the previous version is available at: > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-01 > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of > submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > > _______________________________________________ > json mailing list > json@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json > --=20 - Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a private message, see https://keybase.io/timbray) --001a113a5a6afe4b050535192588 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
BTW= , I ended up revising the language a bit, in a way that might be controvers= ial.=C2=A0 The text we were looking at talks about the =E2=80=9Ctwo documen= ts=E2=80=9D being in sync, but really, there are three: The RFC, ECMA 404, = and also ECMA 262 and its successors.=C2=A0 I think if we=E2=80=99re promis= ing harmony with ECMA, all three have to be involved.=C2=A0 So I revised it= slightly to promise consistency between =E2=80=9Cthe specifications=E2=80= =9D generally, not just =E2=80=9Ctwo documents=E2=80=9D specifically.=C2=A0= Hope that=E2=80=99s OK.

On Sun, Jun 12, 2016 at 11:39 AM, <= ;internet-dra= fts@ietf.org> wrote:

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director= ies.
This draft is a work item of the Javascript Object Notation Update of the I= ETF.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Title=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0:= The JavaScript Object Notation (JSON) Data Interchange Format
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Author=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : Tim = Bray
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Filename=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : draft-iet= f-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-01.txt
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Pages=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0:= 15
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Date=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 := 2016-06-12

Abstract:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0JavaScript Object Notation (JSON) is a lightweight, text-based= ,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0language-independent data interchange format.=C2=A0 It was der= ived from
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the ECMAScript Programming Language Standard.=C2=A0 JSON defin= es a small
=C2=A0 =C2=A0set of formatting rules for the portable representation of str= uctured
=C2=A0 =C2=A0data.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0This document removes inconsistencies with other specification= s of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0JSON, repairs specification errors, and offers experience-base= d
=C2=A0 =C2=A0interoperability guidance.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draf= t-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis/

There's also a htmlized version available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-j= sonbis-rfc7159bis-01

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url= 2=3Ddraft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-01


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

_______________________________________________
json mailing list
json@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json



--
- Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a private message, see https://keybase.io/tim= bray)
--001a113a5a6afe4b050535192588-- From nobody Sun Jun 12 12:12:23 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB4F712D0C2 for ; Sun, 12 Jun 2016 12:12:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.62 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.62 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VKv8y42UJblw for ; Sun, 12 Jun 2016 12:12:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay2-d.mail.gandi.net (relay2-d.mail.gandi.net [217.70.183.194]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D350712D50C for ; Sun, 12 Jun 2016 12:12:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mfilter35-d.gandi.net (mfilter35-d.gandi.net [217.70.178.166]) by relay2-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42D99C5A53; Sun, 12 Jun 2016 21:12:19 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mfilter35-d.gandi.net Received: from relay2-d.mail.gandi.net ([IPv6:::ffff:217.70.183.194]) by mfilter35-d.gandi.net (mfilter35-d.gandi.net [::ffff:10.0.15.180]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id S7gMkD3hZHE7; Sun, 12 Jun 2016 21:12:17 +0200 (CEST) X-Originating-IP: 193.1.66.157 Received: from nar-3.local (unknown [193.1.66.157]) (Authenticated sender: cabo@cabo.im) by relay2-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id BD61BC5A3C; Sun, 12 Jun 2016 21:12:15 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <575DB410.1090309@tzi.org> Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2016 20:12:16 +0100 From: Carsten Bormann User-Agent: Postbox 4.0.8 (Macintosh/20151105) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Bray References: <20160612183925.5385.10856.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.2.3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Cc: "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] I-D Action: draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-01.txt X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2016 19:12:23 -0000 Tim Bray wrote: > ECMA 262 I think that's a regression. ECMA 262 is *not* defining JSON. (If you are looking for more sources of definitions, can I offer the documentation of, say, NSJSONSerialization?) Of course we'd like JSON implementations to implement JSON, but the direction of the arrow of normative referencing is very clear here. Grüße, Carsten From nobody Sun Jun 12 12:29:01 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E87E312D62D for ; Sun, 12 Jun 2016 12:28:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=textuality-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ocx3ocWmIgr9 for ; Sun, 12 Jun 2016 12:28:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qg0-x22d.google.com (mail-qg0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c04::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 65A9612D662 for ; Sun, 12 Jun 2016 12:28:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qg0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id v48so40568609qgd.2 for ; Sun, 12 Jun 2016 12:28:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=textuality-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=IIyRjN40iCuEeYTaBbbVXfI1ZSp4MLiAfUTeQyeYJ8g=; b=e1rTP6T3jiXDqBMFvK8ymwjfl7Ep7qmHcN9z8ACH7LXRhfMBaDZarLG63CXgesOi0z OKLLMOnkV2Sv1tWBae0DGFzcNAhVooVE3vmF6gTmFlKs6JQ+CI70YXqZ0x5Hd0/XGwQo kWzKvuKh3gQYBFTWlODdtHoHUyWqhNeKzjbwUg4jK01F28kyLBryKbpag61cR8aQIMVu 1s3XSkpFvFSytyNDOV4qtIzzcX0sxmIzA3r7QdFg0N8NXi3VQQP34oj2j39Bw5SXduAn ELZPZz5DjZwyPno0jgattDtaDMOACs2jMzhB9WVusga1UGlMjgIsyUE4opnlVoQozY12 ZIzQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=IIyRjN40iCuEeYTaBbbVXfI1ZSp4MLiAfUTeQyeYJ8g=; b=ZVKRJL7hgSdk0B357hFD9vrSDYgxxsmiWr7+Ji9bS31Xfky8uAZ05LIfj8YUYaJds0 UatWf2+Yvi+fatjMwRQMkdjioyDZSPVOpO9dCrTk/un2pIUX8WquEoJWT6werq1Sw3SM T7dmJ7hA2Fc+FYiw/KQLmZ5cMmY2KeurdhEibO/wPkA9/hR2oph4XYOyIKIYZDAGxCPD MazHWFvZo30zqarvEIT+aFSSMtw/MUT1RWHBfpb3dx2ghQwqBdJGZwYSyewcyGJnMfpm hUNtSqP7LtQucDP1Su1Ai2QHhiIqX5l31NG5jDg/Mml0VxiumhaQK6snYEGfl9WSioWz pLvQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tIGkP4C3g9AyPiYra6UAc0iiqso0DFamjKV7MJSRV3EsogBfVGiL3req23ZMOUD+ovw07/ZrpEEJ6zmlg== X-Received: by 10.140.194.73 with SMTP id p70mr11426185qha.78.1465759734390; Sun, 12 Jun 2016 12:28:54 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.140.98.161 with HTTP; Sun, 12 Jun 2016 12:28:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [24.84.248.61] In-Reply-To: <575DB410.1090309@tzi.org> References: <20160612183925.5385.10856.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <575DB410.1090309@tzi.org> From: Tim Bray Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2016 12:28:34 -0700 Message-ID: To: Carsten Bormann Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11427f304b7a0b053519c8a2 Archived-At: Cc: "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] I-D Action: draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-01.txt X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2016 19:29:00 -0000 --001a11427f304b7a0b053519c8a2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Huh, I observe that 262 has been updated and now has a reference to 404. Which means that the assertion in 7159 that 262 also defines JSON is now incorrect. So I guess I should put back the two-specs language and remove the assertion about 262. On Sun, Jun 12, 2016 at 12:12 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote: > Tim Bray wrote: > > ECMA 262 > > I think that's a regression. > > ECMA 262 is *not* defining JSON. > > (If you are looking for more sources of definitions, can I offer the > documentation of, say, NSJSONSerialization?) > > Of course we'd like JSON implementations to implement JSON, but the > direction of the arrow of normative referencing is very clear here. > > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > --=20 - Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a private message, see https://keybase.io/timbray) --001a11427f304b7a0b053519c8a2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Huh= , I observe that 262 has been updated and now has a reference to 404. Which= means that the assertion in 7159 that 262 also defines JSON is now incorre= ct.=C2=A0 So I guess I should put back the two-specs language and remove th= e assertion about 262. =C2=A0


On Sun, Jun 12, 2016 at 12:12 PM, Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org= > wrote:
Tim Bray wrote: > ECMA 262

I think that's a regression.

ECMA 262 is *not* defining JSON.

(If you are looking for more sources of definitions, can I offer the
documentation of, say, NSJSONSerialization?)

Of course we'd like JSON implementations to implement JSON, but the
direction of the arrow of normative referencing is very clear here.

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten



--
- Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a private message, see https://keybase.io/tim= bray)
--001a11427f304b7a0b053519c8a2-- From nobody Mon Jun 13 12:04:08 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20F1612D178 for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2016 12:04:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.4 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.4 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.198, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id w-RkenLPRfkZ for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2016 12:03:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qg0-x22e.google.com (mail-qg0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c04::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0D82B12D93E for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2016 12:03:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qg0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id v48so55015577qgd.2 for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2016 12:03:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=hEAZ/Okk7n5qJLHK5OIMo29mLckc5QAzZKE5E0r3yf0=; b=GOs1/wDp9HHg74ca1GiIKZEeZWDtNSuI3+2sPxaZ5C3Zo8J3OCdbTYmcoyUXGd0Nwk tnBdRwUVPNGY7jwlvAiRCNG6mUhEHNbNv0CnI3gHT808QPZ/5KRfmYKlxoG/GnZPHQPS ns/DWurNXVucbf4IgasfQe1HoWkpIvmARcYmOmNroY2B2AByVqdHW5Dsna+kTcGPuWiQ E48Cr/bIHPClFtAB9f87aQUH629qr03G4/8gjmhnia9Os28NhDP72W7hAyYvQu/79k8B lzGbswQk9heypaLi7dZxkh0o0VFZrZq0YkfweU4zFgWfDOSSd90XOhbFVeG/joARCAqu umBg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:from:date:message-id:subject :to; bh=hEAZ/Okk7n5qJLHK5OIMo29mLckc5QAzZKE5E0r3yf0=; b=KXiwzNfsIlYD8ZrkUNyUKnHzqDbveZdWMcOxKpndlIQ1UMehcJu7s8gmMfPJpL3MhO R7z///NZQwd1Fuu/rnr2Bzh2fJ/QFeSRcKfrtaJPiKrTv3NYynne0uQOzAovDXSdcUpN L4Uqq45Czc6z6hIciD6kE3lcHeekTYbaJ/HulxgdXW+o9b0cekJFjiIUxXGkkfJOrQ5W PZjowInBeG9QNRwZykj1v762fPU8VNlB/gppxANgAameXehJc6ivKHrK8qqfttYepqr+ lxHSVaxZowIXQxlDI5aSRII73f71CI6+aO92caKJYgVfWPxP9mcRLfXmYZROnQBP0mrk DjQA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tLHy1p+g5cAfzKJsQKt+Obc+Xvq0nq9OQOWPXtKTPvNTkg8/GzHTxc1tE5+0P7vzU3jXffap1WvkegPPg== X-Received: by 10.140.16.184 with SMTP id 53mr6074288qgb.20.1465844624221; Mon, 13 Jun 2016 12:03:44 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: hallam@gmail.com Received: by 10.55.25.85 with HTTP; Mon, 13 Jun 2016 12:03:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Phillip Hallam-Baker Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 15:03:42 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: n50HXU6_4ORhuvet1Sw3kOy5qB4 Message-ID: To: JSON WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c0afe21f6d5c05352d8c7a Archived-At: Subject: [Json] Modelling cryptographic types as C# (or similar) Generic Types X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 19:04:00 -0000 --001a11c0afe21f6d5c05352d8c7a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 I spent some time looking into this. I don't think it is going to be useful and I don't think it is likely to be fixable. The problem is how to deal with things like typed signed blobs. So say you have a message that contains a signed object that is a SAML assertion like object. You might want to have a scheme that says the signature of the message is something like: Request Structure Issued DateTime Credential JWS And then have that map onto a set of types: class Request { DateTime Issued; JWS Credential; } Looks really nice and clean eh? Well it sucks, here is why. The problem is that C# generic types (and pretty much everything else like it in Java, etc.) do not actually provide a substitute for multiple inheritance and that is what you need to model a system like this. The problem is that when you start specing out a protocol, you would want to be able to subclass Assertion. And while you can do that, none of the type systems I have looked at in widely used environments allows you to write something like class DerrivedClass : BaseClass { } Generic Instance = new Generic; It seems to be a fairly fundamental restriction on the way that the type system is implemented and it isn't likely this will change any time soon. --001a11c0afe21f6d5c05352d8c7a Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I spent some time looking into this. I don't think it = is going to be useful and I don't think it is likely to be fixable.

The problem is how to deal with things like = typed signed blobs.

So say you have a message that= contains a signed object that is a SAML assertion like object. You might w= ant to have a scheme that says the signature of the message is something li= ke:

Request Structure=C2=A0
=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 Issued DateTime
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Credential JWS<Assertion&= gt;

And then have that map onto a set of types:

class Request {
=C2=A0 =C2=A0DateTime Issu= ed;
=C2=A0 =C2=A0JWS<Assertion> Credential;
=C2= =A0 =C2=A0}

Looks really nice and clean eh? Well i= t sucks, here is why.

The problem is that C# gener= ic types (and pretty much everything else like it in Java, etc.) do not act= ually provide a substitute for multiple inheritance and that is what you ne= ed to model a system like this.

The problem is tha= t when you start specing out a protocol, you would want to be able to subcl= ass Assertion. And while you can do that, none of the type systems I have l= ooked at in widely used environments allows you to write something like

class DerrivedClass : BaseClass {
=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 }

Generic<BaseClass> Instance =3D new= Generic<DerrivedClass>;

It seems to be a fa= irly fundamental restriction on the way that the type system is implemented= and it isn't likely this will change any time soon.


--001a11c0afe21f6d5c05352d8c7a-- From nobody Wed Jun 15 20:42:42 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietf.org Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71FAF12D09F; Wed, 15 Jun 2016 20:42:38 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.22.2 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20160616034238.26185.479.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 20:42:38 -0700 Archived-At: Cc: json@ietf.org Subject: [Json] I-D Action: draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-02.txt X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 03:42:38 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Javascript Object Notation Update of the IETF. Title : The JavaScript Object Notation (JSON) Data Interchange Format Author : Tim Bray Filename : draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-02.txt Pages : 15 Date : 2016-06-15 Abstract: JavaScript Object Notation (JSON) is a lightweight, text-based, language-independent data interchange format. It was derived from the ECMAScript Programming Language Standard. JSON defines a small set of formatting rules for the portable representation of structured data. This document removes inconsistencies with other specifications of JSON, repairs specification errors, and offers experience-based interoperability guidance. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-02 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-02 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Wed Jun 15 20:46:52 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C288B12D09F for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2016 20:46:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=textuality-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4GEKkpu7Pmxk for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2016 20:46:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x232.google.com (mail-qk0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9675212B041 for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2016 20:46:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk0-x232.google.com with SMTP id p10so41635784qke.3 for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2016 20:46:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=textuality-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=s9IwIKfiyhapspI3hxAJJghCr9coBMhv78YzbUPXcg8=; b=fd+OHlCC/FFjkpuM1bwdRMc9kJMriTXLK6NTKYq6c5ARCfoiIKD7M9iyiT3ncJwTgX eJjZ+CHC81sbeAu1lT++PS7cUU5TtHSGg/qfalwQBW7G07bIH8h6uSuDuY4sRyXda6FT YIhwCUpRwvPfkzsOZPQSIvRG+y0FMxZ4Y09Zlk5yf9kUhm48Bn76yLc0O6+MztZqmuEv U/NrQq85u31+CeOh2Q0NfDRw85l8zZdhgFzMCSnDRB7pwYySq/6gh6P3eqs/mGMrMJZf BXKP/OS01co93tnC0o+6iJ4yeKShq95jc8WQvWFlvjJyVb6IrxxmuJMabHBSDTYo+OlI Ojmw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=s9IwIKfiyhapspI3hxAJJghCr9coBMhv78YzbUPXcg8=; b=mWY1W2b6G1FO+mOJdhD+b3oGcF+DT6Cl2rbWZeFq2upS1Tj8WkJ3vZu5MlEXpt5Ij3 ChSw9hL8DEKil6HMDd+btDBNi1V7kDglX1GZoIn+Pu+/MSKVC68nO42Wlo9F4AoFxARg WNRZnu7Z4ch79L+1Ka3UFOOuifl9y3NnDhlTb2tMCpWdE2kMXr4v0f0E6nw304+FkvtC 8Fv1CmvW9hixuREf9SBUvBVwpUidS6pkK+4QkKIiFpjvX6i02NoHVqDkFcu03ageUHHL Sf1e1TSNDlBDojT+aBD7idciij6RPZiRSRjv2lhOi1LgojN/1GHVi7Jk2wwZn/Cj+GPz yOuw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tLgoOjhaChNdrxvCakBl/sVZOCXclh77SI+cNbAHRAITD9hkKYkAWPf8iwvQ2D+47cAy/2plfJLid9l3A== X-Received: by 10.233.221.130 with SMTP id r124mr2314072qkf.19.1466048807707; Wed, 15 Jun 2016 20:46:47 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.140.21.134 with HTTP; Wed, 15 Jun 2016 20:46:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [24.84.248.61] In-Reply-To: <20160616034238.26185.479.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> References: <20160616034238.26185.479.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Tim Bray Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 20:46:27 -0700 Message-ID: To: "json@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c04389868376705355d16ad Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Json] I-D Action: draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-02.txt X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 03:46:51 -0000 --94eb2c04389868376705355d16ad Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Two questions for the WG: 1. In section 1.2, first sentence, should =E2=80=9Cdescribes=E2=80=9D be = =E2=80=9Cdescribed=E2=80=9D? 2. 2nd last para of 1.2 has the word =E2=80=9Cshould=E2=80=9D in lower case= - using 2119 words in lower case is apt to draw objections. But can we say SHOULD when we're talking about another organization? On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 8:42 PM, wrote: > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts > directories. > This draft is a work item of the Javascript Object Notation Update of the > IETF. > > Title : The JavaScript Object Notation (JSON) Data > Interchange Format > Author : Tim Bray > Filename : draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-02.txt > Pages : 15 > Date : 2016-06-15 > > Abstract: > JavaScript Object Notation (JSON) is a lightweight, text-based, > language-independent data interchange format. It was derived from > the ECMAScript Programming Language Standard. JSON defines a small > set of formatting rules for the portable representation of structured > data. > > This document removes inconsistencies with other specifications of > JSON, repairs specification errors, and offers experience-based > interoperability guidance. > > > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis/ > > There's also a htmlized version available at: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-02 > > A diff from the previous version is available at: > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-02 > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of > submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > > _______________________________________________ > json mailing list > json@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json > --=20 - Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a private message, see https://keybase.io/timbray) --94eb2c04389868376705355d16ad Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Two= questions for the WG:

1.= In section 1.2, first sentence, should =E2=80=9Cdescribes=E2=80=9D be =E2= =80=9Cdescribed=E2=80=9D?

2. 2nd last para of 1.2 has the word =E2=80=9Cshould=E2=80=9D in lower cas= e - using 2119 words in lower case is apt to draw objections.=C2=A0 But can= we say SHOULD when we're talking about another organization?

On Wed, Jun 15,= 2016 at 8:42 PM, <internet-drafts@ietf.org> wrote:<= br>

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director= ies.
This draft is a work item of the Javascript Object Notation Update of the I= ETF.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Title=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0:= The JavaScript Object Notation (JSON) Data Interchange Format
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Author=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : Tim = Bray
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Filename=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : draft-iet= f-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-02.txt
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Pages=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0:= 15
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Date=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 := 2016-06-15

Abstract:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0JavaScript Object Notation (JSON) is a lightweight, text-based= ,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0language-independent data interchange format.=C2=A0 It was der= ived from
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the ECMAScript Programming Language Standard.=C2=A0 JSON defin= es a small
=C2=A0 =C2=A0set of formatting rules for the portable representation of str= uctured
=C2=A0 =C2=A0data.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0This document removes inconsistencies with other specification= s of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0JSON, repairs specification errors, and offers experience-base= d
=C2=A0 =C2=A0interoperability guidance.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draf= t-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis/

There's also a htmlized version available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-j= sonbis-rfc7159bis-02

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url= 2=3Ddraft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-02


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

_______________________________________________
json mailing list
json@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json



--
- Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a private message, see https://keybase.io/tim= bray)
--94eb2c04389868376705355d16ad-- From nobody Wed Jun 15 20:47:29 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D41CC12B02E for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2016 20:47:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=textuality-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6Sn9k9uw0ywJ for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2016 20:47:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x233.google.com (mail-qk0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E178E12D1D3 for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2016 20:47:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk0-x233.google.com with SMTP id p10so41644639qke.3 for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2016 20:47:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=textuality-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=vBQy0kcIKPU1UDd50U144f9bywv8TtCJSKG6KARZ3LI=; b=nT+ukFoyoVdOAqNZ5k5hM0C0R8QmCYKSqokCnAPUor9AYNuUFM41bvIWn+DXA909gH MjUWNeJt8/ovHIJ5IgmR70q/qzlrcrH5bWgdpWIS31JXb16xelHOtDp/Hm4HJrU2mKnA Fr33dJfc70xBbqBPjuWavOAvxezKq2Ps4RIjQymTUN2Sk4XWVQ1+urNE70j9kQFoFSAW ACw6p/thvtRfUwC6cMULozYflcAW3NSDI79uTGN0CinvJ3E6rWbLHRO9S7vVy9UmUJrp Y3af99WHO2AfaP9FPp5DQsjTWVMujs6p6OyjtV+jVC+UDqFOhr2gYXlWWfCpZRgn+4/o Ibmw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=vBQy0kcIKPU1UDd50U144f9bywv8TtCJSKG6KARZ3LI=; b=Edh9Id25VrW4LjJxyFY5xVrmszerMjFm2dtqfYPJWMUPHUsshdCV4QbTW4KF9zSCm3 CFwzkLoX6eP5mtuiY3Eyq5GoET5zxy5uYdF6fb5xhxCFuLzVmM4DO7tcWuSUyahHT+3l MktkaKnBvVE/727gDhaIcpS3NtCP01VXC4OeVOM4LIJsy8t4bGL/AJ6Zu1h8ebi1oQzp WZtKhyABMeepQSQk03l7lbAmINb3HhUKFHe2nByPMJaQK0e+767M2jz0Bm2amSu6vkQg rJTARgCCfF8KTzqZ88I+gNZm8WTkbriYVe5UH9IXEpMelAAk3ifw+j5IEcU15iF9x9/R 7vCA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tJBtO/24r4PgGJ/QCjTCut6u9vSeINWSziJrquBb01dwwDBQUdUXUwHWscc2c5ml4fNNHvNlKnvhyJZ8w== X-Received: by 10.55.163.143 with SMTP id m137mr2356163qke.66.1466048845023; Wed, 15 Jun 2016 20:47:25 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.140.21.134 with HTTP; Wed, 15 Jun 2016 20:47:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [24.84.248.61] In-Reply-To: References: <20160616034238.26185.479.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Tim Bray Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 20:47:05 -0700 Message-ID: To: "json@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c05dc5ca1a3e905355d1857 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Json] I-D Action: draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-02.txt X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 03:47:28 -0000 --94eb2c05dc5ca1a3e905355d1857 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable One question for the chairs: What=E2=80=99s the quid pro quo? What change will ECMA be making as part o= f this process? On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 8:46 PM, Tim Bray wrote: > Two questions for the WG: > > 1. In section 1.2, first sentence, should =E2=80=9Cdescribes=E2=80=9D be = =E2=80=9Cdescribed=E2=80=9D? > > 2. 2nd last para of 1.2 has the word =E2=80=9Cshould=E2=80=9D in lower ca= se - using 2119 > words in lower case is apt to draw objections. But can we say SHOULD whe= n > we're talking about another organization? > > On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 8:42 PM, wrote: > >> >> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts >> directories. >> This draft is a work item of the Javascript Object Notation Update of th= e >> IETF. >> >> Title : The JavaScript Object Notation (JSON) Data >> Interchange Format >> Author : Tim Bray >> Filename : draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-02.txt >> Pages : 15 >> Date : 2016-06-15 >> >> Abstract: >> JavaScript Object Notation (JSON) is a lightweight, text-based, >> language-independent data interchange format. It was derived from >> the ECMAScript Programming Language Standard. JSON defines a small >> set of formatting rules for the portable representation of structured >> data. >> >> This document removes inconsistencies with other specifications of >> JSON, repairs specification errors, and offers experience-based >> interoperability guidance. >> >> >> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis/ >> >> There's also a htmlized version available at: >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-02 >> >> A diff from the previous version is available at: >> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-02 >> >> >> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of >> submission >> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >> >> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: >> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> json mailing list >> json@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json >> > > > > -- > - Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a private message, see > https://keybase.io/timbray) > --=20 - Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a private message, see https://keybase.io/timbray) --94eb2c05dc5ca1a3e905355d1857 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
One= question for the chairs:

What=E2=80=99s the quid pro quo?=C2=A0 What change will ECMA be making as = part of this process?

On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 8:46 PM, Tim Bray <tbray@textu= ality.com> wrote:
Two questio= ns for the WG:
=
1. In sect= ion 1.2, first sentence, should =E2=80=9Cdescribes=E2=80=9D be =E2=80=9Cdes= cribed=E2=80=9D?

2. 2nd l= ast para of 1.2 has the word =E2=80=9Cshould=E2=80=9D in lower case - using= 2119 words in lower case is apt to draw objections.=C2=A0 But can we say S= HOULD when we're talking about another organization?

O= n Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 8:42 PM, <internet-drafts@ietf.org><= /span> wrote:

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director= ies.
This draft is a work item of the Javascript Object Notation Update of the I= ETF.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Title=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0:= The JavaScript Object Notation (JSON) Data Interchange Format
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Author=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : Tim = Bray
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Filename=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : draft-iet= f-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-02.txt
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Pages=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0:= 15
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Date=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 := 2016-06-15

Abstract:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0JavaScript Object Notation (JSON) is a lightweight, text-based= ,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0language-independent data interchange format.=C2=A0 It was der= ived from
=C2=A0 =C2=A0the ECMAScript Programming Language Standard.=C2=A0 JSON defin= es a small
=C2=A0 =C2=A0set of formatting rules for the portable representation of str= uctured
=C2=A0 =C2=A0data.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0This document removes inconsistencies with other specification= s of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0JSON, repairs specification errors, and offers experience-base= d
=C2=A0 =C2=A0interoperability guidance.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draf= t-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis/

There's also a htmlized version available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-j= sonbis-rfc7159bis-02

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url= 2=3Ddraft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-02


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

_______________________________________________
json mailing list
json@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json



--
- Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send= me a private message, see https://keybase.io/timbray)



--
- Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a private message, see https://keybase.io/tim= bray)
--94eb2c05dc5ca1a3e905355d1857-- From nobody Thu Jun 16 00:17:17 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D85412B03A for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 00:17:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.928 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.928 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.77, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=fastmail.fm header.b=d+jk8yHO; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=fCiwHGoN Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id II4kdm6hBWYp for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 00:17:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out3-smtp.messagingengine.com (out3-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 47EE712B056 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 00:17:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute5.internal (compute5.nyi.internal [10.202.2.45]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89C752032A; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 03:17:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from frontend1 ([10.202.2.160]) by compute5.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 16 Jun 2016 03:17:11 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fastmail.fm; h=cc :content-transfer-encoding:content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-sasl-enc :x-sasl-enc; s=mesmtp; bh=6PAAzka86rakuCN+ieND5A+tbYU=; b=d+jk8y HOdXrhwbojVqti6DMziQnEwiQS8LLMd2ivr3OcZ0qgIKPkltuq0FzLO34gQUO72T nDI0ixIhE3Nq3nd/jgx199YICCiKMJm2VYGcbh6DYZNvwvrgDYkeqScQWGDAY4kf UIdFfI4mVFoLhnDGnK0auK+qk9MYT00RI8S0c= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-sasl-enc:x-sasl-enc; s=smtpout; bh=6PAAzka86rakuCN +ieND5A+tbYU=; b=fCiwHGoNTJCYGdbnEaTSi2wujrb/Ko42ymWbJaMIwi3m77B YLns3Y49oqqj4VP+MYSAjVBoeRjGhKf/GavqGehVBbrafQz/USt7I2RxCHVF1dfw sTfscmTaEkSSxogUn67gtF59hJNFVi3cxwS5gkAt3EFuf4bdTJb8GHazQzQA= X-Sasl-enc: 895Qx8rBvboqi76QpyMxMNsJdSnceyg43UwWlTxSIE5E 1466061430 Received: from [192.168.1.7] (ppp109-252-99-139.pppoe.spdop.ru [109.252.99.139]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 66EF9F29F4; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 03:17:10 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-498CB225-97F3-480E-B549-C7FA80249B36 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Alexey Melnikov X-Mailer: iPad Mail (13F69) In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 08:26:28 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: References: <20160616034238.26185.479.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> To: Tim Bray Archived-At: Cc: "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] I-D Action: draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-02.txt X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 07:17:14 -0000 --Apple-Mail-498CB225-97F3-480E-B549-C7FA80249B36 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1251 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Tim, > On 16 Jun 2016, at 04:46, Tim Bray wrote: >=20 > Two questions for the WG: >=20 > 1. In section 1.2, first sentence, should =93describes=94 be =93described=94= ? >=20 > 2. 2nd last para of 1.2 has the word =93should=94 in lower case - using 21= 19 words in lower case is apt to draw objections. But can we say SHOULD whe= n we're talking about another organization? I don't think SHOULD will work here, so just keep it lowercased. >=20 >> On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 8:42 PM, wrote: >>=20 >> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts direct= ories. >> This draft is a work item of the Javascript Object Notation Update of the= IETF. >>=20 >> Title : The JavaScript Object Notation (JSON) Data Inte= rchange Format >> Author : Tim Bray >> Filename : draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-02.txt >> Pages : 15 >> Date : 2016-06-15 >>=20 >> Abstract: >> JavaScript Object Notation (JSON) is a lightweight, text-based, >> language-independent data interchange format. It was derived from >> the ECMAScript Programming Language Standard. JSON defines a small >> set of formatting rules for the portable representation of structured >> data. >>=20 >> This document removes inconsistencies with other specifications of >> JSON, repairs specification errors, and offers experience-based >> interoperability guidance. >>=20 >>=20 >> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis/ >>=20 >> There's also a htmlized version available at: >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-02 >>=20 >> A diff from the previous version is available at: >> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-02 >>=20 >>=20 >> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submiss= ion >> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >>=20 >> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: >> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> json mailing list >> json@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > - Tim Bray (If you=92d like to send me a private message, see https://keyb= ase.io/timbray) > _______________________________________________ > json mailing list > json@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json --Apple-Mail-498CB225-97F3-480E-B549-C7FA80249B36 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Tim,

On 16 Jun 2016, at 04:46, Tim Bray <tbray@textuality.com> wrote:

Two questions for the WG:

1. In section 1.2, first sentence, should =E2=80=9Cde= scribes=E2=80=9D be =E2=80=9Cdescribed=E2=80=9D?

2. 2nd last para of 1.2 has the word =E2=80=9Cshould=E2= =80=9D in lower case - using 2119 words in lower case is apt to draw objecti= ons.  But can we say SHOULD when we're talking about another organizati= on?

I don't think SHOULD will w= ork here, so just keep it lowercased.

On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 a= t 8:42 PM, <internet-drafts@ietf.org> wrote:

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directori= es.
This draft is a work item of the Javascript Object Notation Update of the IE= TF.

        Title           : T= he JavaScript Object Notation (JSON) Data Interchange Format
        Author          : Tim B= ray
        Filename        : draft-ietf= -jsonbis-rfc7159bis-02.txt
        Pages           : 1= 5
        Date            : 2= 016-06-15

Abstract:
   JavaScript Object Notation (JSON) is a lightweight, text-based,=
   language-independent data interchange format.  It was deri= ved from
   the ECMAScript Programming Language Standard.  JSON define= s a small
   set of formatting rules for the portable representation of stru= ctured
   data.

   This document removes inconsistencies with other specifications= of
   JSON, repairs specification errors, and offers experience-based=
   interoperability guidance.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-i= etf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis/

There's also a htmlized version available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-jso= nbis-rfc7159bis-02

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3D= draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-02


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission=
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

_______________________________________________
json mailing list
json@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/json



--
-= Tim Bray (If you=E2=80=99d like to send me a private message, see https://keybase.io/timbray)
= --Apple-Mail-498CB225-97F3-480E-B549-C7FA80249B36-- From nobody Thu Jun 16 09:16:53 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE88F12D884 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 09:16:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.947 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.947 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UnEHpIpCKmRA for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 09:16:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-5.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-5.cisco.com [173.37.86.76]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48E5A12D96E for ; 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charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <97222087B2610E4DA5512E5F29DA6B97@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Json] I-D Action: draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-02.txt X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 16:16:52 -0000 T24gNi8xNS8xNiwgOTo0NiBQTSwgImpzb24gb24gYmVoYWxmIG9mIFRpbSBCcmF5IiA8anNvbi1i b3VuY2VzQGlldGYub3JnIG9uIGJlaGFsZiBvZiB0YnJheUB0ZXh0dWFsaXR5LmNvbT4gd3JvdGU6 DQoNCj5Ud28gcXVlc3Rpb25zIGZvciB0aGUgV0c6DQo+DQo+DQo+MS4gSW4gc2VjdGlvbiAxLjIs IGZpcnN0IHNlbnRlbmNlLCBzaG91bGQg4oCcZGVzY3JpYmVz4oCdIGJlIOKAnGRlc2NyaWJlZOKA nT8NCg0K4oCcZGVzY3JpYmVk4oCdLCBpbiBteSBvcGluaW9uLg0KDQpDaGFuZ2UgNDYyNyB0byA3 MTU5Pw0KDQo+Mi4gMm5kIGxhc3QgcGFyYSBvZiAxLjIgaGFzIHRoZSB3b3JkIOKAnHNob3VsZOKA nSBpbiBsb3dlciBjYXNlIC0gdXNpbmcgMjExOSB3b3JkcyBpbiBsb3dlciBjYXNlIGlzIGFwdCB0 byBkcmF3IG9iamVjdGlvbnMuICBCdXQgY2FuIHdlIHNheSBTSE9VTEQgd2hlbiB3ZSdyZSB0YWxr aW5nIGFib3V0IGFub3RoZXIgb3JnYW5pemF0aW9uPw0KDQpDaGFuZ2Ug4oCcc2hvdWxk4oCdIHRv IOKAnHdpbGzigJ0/DQoNCi0tIA0KSm9lIEhpbGRlYnJhbmQNCg0K From nobody Thu Jun 16 13:26:05 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C7F312D145 for ; 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Thu, 16 Jun 2016 13:26:01 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: barryleiba.mailing.lists@gmail.com Received: by 10.107.153.78 with HTTP; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 13:26:00 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20160616034238.26185.479.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Barry Leiba Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 16:26:00 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 0boIAiqPamLE701tIvKR0S6coyI Message-ID: To: Tim Bray Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Cc: "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] I-D Action: draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-02.txt X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 20:26:04 -0000 > One question for the chairs: > > What=E2=80=99s the quid pro quo? What change will ECMA be making as part= of this > process? As the former AD who was part of sorting this out with ECMA: They are supposed to do the same, putting something in their docs that points to ours and says something similar about having the two specs remain converged. Barry From nobody Thu Jun 16 15:00:57 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F2EE12DCCA for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 15:00:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.947 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.947 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ge_c8fLYVdLb for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 15:00:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-1.cisco.com (alln-iport-1.cisco.com [173.37.142.88]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 900C412DCC6 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 15:00:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1573; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1466114453; x=1467324053; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=GQ7fL4DRIkvSEsTQSBzgRVwnF2k5UHq5j0Vckuo0zf4=; b=XNrrV5+RLVO1ZpPTAojm3MRkkbrBLbwo3BX42kr0OWATmf7903alWQ9d IfgP1hjIwrf9aS8gxefRHiTG18TgY7Kllv+zNnRCaiAvMM/v7L8ql+KM8 hszr2Bujwnxu2FlpyfPzjufAbMZ+1hryxqpg1rHx9g75+HZReB9etUUX3 w=; X-Files: signature.asc : 496 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0AaAgA0IWNX/4sNJK1egz6BUwa6VoF6h?= =?us-ascii?q?hcCgSw4FAEBAQEBAQFlJ4RLAQEBAwEjVgULAgEIGCoCAjIlAgQBDQUOiBoIsCK?= =?us-ascii?q?QUQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQ4OiB6CVodBK4IvAQSYbwIBgy2BaYkSg?= =?us-ascii?q?VONT490AR42gggcgUxuiHx/AQEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.26,481,1459814400"; d="asc'?scan'208";a="286670666" Received: from alln-core-6.cisco.com ([173.36.13.139]) by alln-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 16 Jun 2016 22:00:52 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-005.cisco.com (xch-rcd-005.cisco.com [173.37.102.15]) by alln-core-6.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u5GM0q34009096 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 16 Jun 2016 22:00:52 GMT Received: from xch-aln-002.cisco.com (173.36.7.12) by XCH-RCD-005.cisco.com (173.37.102.15) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 17:00:52 -0500 Received: from xch-aln-002.cisco.com ([173.36.7.12]) by XCH-ALN-002.cisco.com ([173.36.7.12]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 17:00:52 -0500 From: "Matt Miller (mamille2)" To: Barry Leiba , Tim Bray Thread-Topic: [Json] I-D Action: draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-02.txt Thread-Index: AQHRx4EwF4LbEztrsESZSZB6P9hXPJ/ryCGAgAAALYCAARcYAIAAGoCA Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 22:00:52 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20160616034238.26185.479.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-pgp-agent: GPGMail 2.6b2 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.129.24.65] Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_22460943-3439-4F3B-A31C-A501161F3485"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] I-D Action: draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-02.txt X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 22:00:56 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_22460943-3439-4F3B-A31C-A501161F3485 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Jun 16, 2016, at 14:26, Barry Leiba = wrote: >=20 >> One question for the chairs: >>=20 >> What=E2=80=99s the quid pro quo? What change will ECMA be making as = part of this >> process? >=20 > As the former AD who was part of sorting this out with ECMA: > They are supposed to do the same, putting something in their docs that > points to ours and says something similar about having the two specs > remain converged. >=20 Thanks Barry. Yes, this is what has been agreed to by Ecma TC39. -- - m&m Matt Miller Cisco Systems, Inc. --Apple-Mail=_22460943-3439-4F3B-A31C-A501161F3485 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQEcBAEBCgAGBQJXYyGTAAoJEDWi+S0W7cO144IH/0LBZf6mhMHDLJZXVNdq6iUO p13+tybVtrINxdWNbijMD6B9uZipvIDAB0LOPuz3BFz5DDwgGy4iMRam+n14DcxK eDaA/w/UVhKH6QIJsYyl6l1gsPHpMpHXKg7rJJYNqO31Hwb8/F2WKOJVMbuCXsUr +9pt6ePuy5V2P4UTMlMv3NKafPgu9z6gQeaoBIN6ehdJ8GNjeUbYfoiuoYZhFAd/ 23O7j3kZofcnLblkr7thZuv7FJ4nEOeXWRWbF6claCEHmxSPLeUHIH6pROASUfX0 ioT4MU96/vJNc8nI3iz+TQMpQPH1qpADZnvcZ86MW6K23ScnjoiDjel7ocFcA04= =wsB3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_22460943-3439-4F3B-A31C-A501161F3485-- From nobody Thu Jun 16 22:48:33 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B282B12D662 for ; 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TYXPR01MB0926; 6:yOTJBhiUGZoxx1aQz61wiDmKp25PKb9NrVYmv9c+PWSyt1aGd3vDmu/6ieZhFNi87EsA30yupOkNsE5CIumFdN5So2mCefxMlDfQiyblBoiPGUqCmAgDpsb7gX9eVf6dVdPPAoZpkvQ9T7WIiuwkkkjC1d7gcFsRa0AutXFwNypSOn96Hr9pnah1VpFX62n14HEZKGYOypj1aGc3UATLAQXtiR4kTaj3c7NqiYBpNCTlpFcFECSfNqneL3FWqKCuZexwwGqM3iEA8fci6A2Mn7ZqzFnq7L446w1WYsSqmOz1txYOTn0qYOtNINTz+HGG; 5:joen4r2TdqMEUhw24ipao6s8WORamj1yRLg/6Rny1SUlAnNj7auhBGXd+WFURd2xbkLAF+71PInISh0cVZu/RpotQlYh0skx/1nul5G0Ieb753HNgjl33bz4PD0NoAus3M19oQMlx5KS6BcgxiNymg==; 24:Uu41rkeCN4g+MzgvEPnv20b9nmOR7GHht1ZrwlJRrYHtgA6v90kAMSZhuw9IENmVzwVBjh1V23zWPvIYvoPWD1ePkwp+7pju/uDJuHy1E+8=; 7:8NlIE+aJtiDsW6MvcHGUvPB5YF2CzxxYh0ksCXutcsUize3wbpwaIgpmX4oIveGC83/jQVsISJ0mo06MyzFJCGe9hddctHTfZXOXITYWM6lcUTE4jhbSLFZSfsJe4nVcHDb9Eb0l8YgUVZXIJEVy4an3ZJOzHYfRZ+R0xjsZo6wUpxuDhh+wmlOVk50zl9KCAP7J2uj/vwSV8flb77RIZQ== SpamDiagnosticOutput: 1:99 SpamDiagnosticMetadata: NSPM X-OriginatorOrg: it.aoyama.ac.jp X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Jun 2016 05:48:25.2717 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: TYXPR01MB0926 Archived-At: Cc: "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] I-D Action: draft-ietf-jsonbis-rfc7159bis-02.txt X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 05:48:31 -0000 On 2016/06/17 07:00, Matt Miller (mamille2) wrote: >> On Jun 16, 2016, at 14:26, Barry Leiba wrote: >> As the former AD who was part of sorting this out with ECMA: >> They are supposed to do the same, putting something in their docs that >> points to ours and says something similar about having the two specs >> remain converged. >> > > Thanks Barry. Yes, this is what has been agreed to by Ecma TC39. Not specific for this, but just a general comment based on experience from collaboration between different standardization organizations: Don't expect this to happen overnight. Each organization works at their own cycles and pace. Regards, Martin. 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[77.116.227.156]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id g10sm38172591wjl.25.2016.06.19.13.41.24 for (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 19 Jun 2016 13:41:24 -0700 (PDT) To: "json@ietf.org" From: Christian Zangl Message-ID: <2a7f88b9-f719-dfd8-08a9-1777833e53d8@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2016 22:41:20 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [Json] Minus Zero X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2016 20:41:30 -0000 The RFC does not mention this but most (all?) JavaScript JSON libraries stringify -0 as "0" (including https://github.com/douglascrockford/JSON-js). Should this be included? From nobody Sun Jun 19 14:09:18 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0358112D81E for ; Sun, 19 Jun 2016 14:09:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xsNcUP5oKmKz for ; Sun, 19 Jun 2016 14:09:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay4-d.mail.gandi.net (relay4-d.mail.gandi.net [IPv6:2001:4b98:c:538::196]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 18ED012D81F for ; Sun, 19 Jun 2016 14:09:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mfilter20-d.gandi.net (mfilter20-d.gandi.net [217.70.178.148]) by relay4-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E52B1720AF; Sun, 19 Jun 2016 23:09:13 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mfilter20-d.gandi.net Received: from relay4-d.mail.gandi.net ([IPv6:::ffff:217.70.183.196]) by mfilter20-d.gandi.net (mfilter20-d.gandi.net [::ffff:10.0.15.180]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QPG0usl9leOe; Sun, 19 Jun 2016 23:09:11 +0200 (CEST) X-Originating-IP: 93.199.242.26 Received: from nar-3.local (p5DC7F21A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [93.199.242.26]) (Authenticated sender: cabo@cabo.im) by relay4-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 00E0E17209F; Sun, 19 Jun 2016 23:09:10 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <576709F5.9080000@tzi.org> Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2016 23:09:09 +0200 From: Carsten Bormann User-Agent: Postbox 4.0.8 (Macintosh/20151105) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Christian Zangl References: <2a7f88b9-f719-dfd8-08a9-1777833e53d8@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <2a7f88b9-f719-dfd8-08a9-1777833e53d8@gmail.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.2.3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Cc: "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] Minus Zero X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2016 21:09:17 -0000 Christian Zangl wrote: > The RFC does not mention this but most (all?) JavaScript JSON libraries > stringify -0 as "0" (including > https://github.com/douglascrockford/JSON-js). Which RFC? -0 evaluates to 0 in most programming languages (two's complement integer arithmetic). -0.0 of course is something different (floating point arithmetic distinguishes positive and negative zero). I would expect a decent JSON implementation to serialize this number as "-0.0" for maximum interoperability with recipients that internalize integer numbers as integers. The JSON interchange format does not call out the difference between integers and floating point numbers, because it only deals in the decimal representations of numbers, but many programming languages do. JavaScript doesn't have that distinction in its number system, but the quirks following from that fact are less relevant for the JSON standard than for its JavaScript-constrained profile I-JSON, RFC 7493. That RFC is indeed missing mention of this particular quirk in its section 2.2, where that information might possibly help. Grüße, Carsten >> JSON.dump([0]) => "[0]" >> JSON.dump([-0]) => "[0]" >> JSON.dump([0.0]) => "[0.0]" >> JSON.dump([-0.0]) => "[-0.0]" >> JSON.load("[-0.0]") => [-0.0] >> JSON.load("[0.0]") => [0.0] >> JSON.load("[0]") => [0] >> JSON.load("[-0]") => [0] From nobody Mon Jun 20 12:23:18 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B968312D6A7 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 12:23:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lDES0PfdXn18 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 12:23:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x229.google.com (mail-wm0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 152AB12D918 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 12:23:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x229.google.com with SMTP id a66so92390993wme.0 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 12:23:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=IH8pf5EcFKVtS4D6r/22U96wLMqACFVFfNWUMGqy70E=; b=f/8mF+1VGD4LpWTNEGGLuJY6Bn740nQOzriDfmsTjU/af3xBBC5bd2tNEhlUGM7+rq CzbP2TCO6ONR3EMCmqDtUbYReNRtyrvTCm423CsmoUlq3QIJ0dYKug7xygmo1xHqsDWZ zb3+LQlhcUz7wSNDsGtAUeEKy4KpCNNLKYTDOkDazKNPJPoFzJDiUDNJ+haKFWwpFkwS ong41x+6sPttjnwWiEoaX1fsG1uCUgZiMi+3jx4IFzDSy3FFVVUyU2pw7XLY9XPDUZ2O UfcsSqkPBBHoDbjEukiyPank4p7KlRXE8gmFzluw7muNgkYu9xSybVwpRJhVt4GpY1PZ bntQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=IH8pf5EcFKVtS4D6r/22U96wLMqACFVFfNWUMGqy70E=; b=TPXSdU4SyqZ/txdEiFHCZNz1FjBSgg/e0NPlwRuA0XUadZwbUf9W5T9/SCEZ/KYmj7 gvtpTDSPpT7npap5psDtq3W7wZv2eMWxQbhoLlSYt3+ACuj7zsYNwmxHCjo107dgxsbx DGx2wqxykGtqywzynmTTa6TF5EOc6iZMVxtb+wVBma3YbzGR2F1hNOjCUJwz8CBvbTX7 NKSjXt+dub0esyYfUPqIZ/0rLPgTFk/JnhAfOTqm+ChsLS1dlnDSFccc7qcqDQbTWK0D gfsnmhqV9izbYNwuJMyvuW+V8mKFBJ6Ad2CJGvNpWUUmqx1SL/ZFBjQc6XiC1qtwrglW p/Aw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tLKl2bFm1Bzz78xYnL4yjUiUW/2KqDiodYXYR2f3KNcVJ/7HqgN+IlUaKnok6aqUA== X-Received: by 10.194.216.33 with SMTP id on1mr15759133wjc.153.1466450591621; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 12:23:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.11.198.98] (ip-145-11.travedsl.de. [85.233.11.145]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id ag3sm24348879wjc.39.2016.06.20.12.23.10 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 20 Jun 2016 12:23:10 -0700 (PDT) To: Christian Zangl , "json@ietf.org" References: <2a7f88b9-f719-dfd8-08a9-1777833e53d8@gmail.com> From: Anders Rundgren Message-ID: Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 21:23:05 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <2a7f88b9-f719-dfd8-08a9-1777833e53d8@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Json] Minus Zero X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 19:23:17 -0000 On 2016-06-19 22:41, Christian Zangl wrote: > The RFC does not mention this but most (all?) JavaScript JSON libraries > stringify -0 as "0" (including https://github.com/douglascrockford/JSON-js). > > Should this be included? Serialization is not really a part of the JSON RFC. ECMAScript V6 (ES6) is is the only normative JSON serialization reference. Some JSON implementations are even incompatible with ES6 even for serialization of strings! .NET and GO are currently being updated. Serialization of floating point numbers is another thing, currently only Chrome, Safari, Firefox, node.js-V8, and my own Java implementation seem to follow ES6. Using ES6 there is no such thing as -0 or -0.0 during serialization since the algorithm is designed to produce the shortest correct representation which is a single zero digit. Anders From nobody Mon Jun 20 12:52:44 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7014512D77C for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 12:52:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Kt4BdoKIttGg for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 12:52:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay5-d.mail.gandi.net (relay5-d.mail.gandi.net [IPv6:2001:4b98:c:538::197]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BCB6912D778 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 12:52:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mfilter21-d.gandi.net (mfilter21-d.gandi.net [217.70.178.149]) by relay5-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 774B841C089; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 21:52:38 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mfilter21-d.gandi.net Received: from relay5-d.mail.gandi.net ([IPv6:::ffff:217.70.183.197]) by mfilter21-d.gandi.net (mfilter21-d.gandi.net [::ffff:10.0.15.180]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ah-zvj1rrHUE; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 21:52:37 +0200 (CEST) X-Originating-IP: 93.199.242.26 Received: from nar-3.local (p5DC7F21A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [93.199.242.26]) (Authenticated sender: cabo@cabo.im) by relay5-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2072441C080; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 21:52:35 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <57684982.2010705@tzi.org> Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 21:52:34 +0200 From: Carsten Bormann User-Agent: Postbox 4.0.8 (Macintosh/20151105) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Anders Rundgren References: <2a7f88b9-f719-dfd8-08a9-1777833e53d8@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.2.3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Cc: Christian Zangl , "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] Minus Zero X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 19:52:43 -0000 > Serialization is not really a part of the JSON RFC. Well, it defines a format that can be used to serialize the JSON data model, but is not specific about corner cases in that data model. > ECMAScript V6 (ES6) is is the only normative JSON serialization reference. But that is only relevant to ES6 implementations; we don't have to care. > [...] (Attempts to get everybody else to follow the ES6 rules are generally regarded as quixotic; see below for an example why.) > Using ES6 there is no such thing as -0 or -0.0 during serialization > since the algorithm is designed to produce the shortest correct > representation which is a single zero digit. I don't think anybody who cares about use of floating point numbers in numerics would agree that this representation of -0.0 is "correct". But then representing all infinites (all of +Infinity, -Infinity, and NaN) as "null" doesn't indicate that numerical usefulness was high on the agenda of the ES6 specifiers. Grüße, Carsten From nobody Mon Jun 20 13:55:54 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53ACE12DA3E for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 13:55:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RgkXP6iAxjAl for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 13:55:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x230.google.com (mail-lf0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A8C5212DA3D for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 13:55:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x230.google.com with SMTP id l188so46728369lfe.2 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 13:55:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=DPM6/nIptLIs9FmGY69c8Is2apG+0tKkNpyPeDowQtA=; b=zB8DdB4/xvCQAdHq2obgEnUzGtsWFb9O0KODPBlzRUd8u5W1LjNinJu8joPTwfbh12 DH7XQY6kPnFaJ83ZRz9NQESaxqApVmEkcA3xekifCnKYeUpJCye+Ettwf5GSUj/FhwS7 NAtEObzJ1OTTjpBbf2FcRTN6+qQifCm/quPZH+nvYg19oqs/iz2ZRqNi8oDH3JbcvvAn Axnq1Kp/fOVTFU2wCvZxm6HYSNa37Ibap9rPBE02xXVIQUMSjFU+t0J0JY1CIRU1Bl5Z 4+RiIQaQQfFFdqxdPowzo9leHvA+FcSkz24Ax2lVdXZoNE2IDj7AX3S7z84V1cTeorX9 zthg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=DPM6/nIptLIs9FmGY69c8Is2apG+0tKkNpyPeDowQtA=; b=PcbuN4+cXk5Pq5s9wvngfGNHMeyk7M2mHhAM+I6DCbahLWJ1wSS0jPrmeeSsPFOwkt FUlj+2CoYIBMRTKAmkYEhh2xaOkzpbIyRba1XJF13LqBDp02KofRPhFDgx8rkRNpskY5 vQYwAsMtwLVyTWjiVvyadOXGHSHIVSPGApKi4ZvS9WO/7R71pW01uhMJHY9riatnO24q 0NNTnc3rnKtZ4KGE2yuJYCnrBHaCqmNxMFk3Po/Z+HiUO1hiP7JqgOYBiuHKx+iNrF1x jcxFQMgXet9rVQx6xuLkyWmqfvjmVhTzhWcMeM603oiAZnSX7kgmj6thcyjgckBnMXxJ szUA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tKjNgnUMXvyViZorf1HAVDUhUkyP2CczX/sWXR3NZvLgPw24IsZFK/jDeOmAJkVHQ== X-Received: by 10.28.94.18 with SMTP id s18mr6986142wmb.42.1466456144613; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 13:55:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.181] (178.112.103.188.wireless.dyn.drei.com. [178.112.103.188]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id k6sm243130wjz.28.2016.06.20.13.55.43 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 20 Jun 2016 13:55:44 -0700 (PDT) To: Carsten Bormann , Anders Rundgren References: <2a7f88b9-f719-dfd8-08a9-1777833e53d8@gmail.com> <57684982.2010705@tzi.org> From: Christian Zangl Message-ID: <8e5dc4b2-a897-30e7-6e37-921c463275cd@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 22:55:41 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <57684982.2010705@tzi.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: "json@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Json] Minus Zero X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 20:55:52 -0000 On 2016-06-20 21:52, Carsten Bormann wrote: >> Serialization is not really a part of the JSON RFC. > > Well, it defines a format that can be used to serialize the JSON data > model, but is not specific about corner cases in that data model. > >> ECMAScript V6 (ES6) is is the only normative JSON serialization reference. > > But that is only relevant to ES6 implementations; we don't have to care. OK, but since RFC 7159/6. already mentions "[..] Note that when such software is used, numbers that are integers and are in the range [-(2**53)+1, (2**53)-1] are interoperable in the sense that implementations will agree exactly on their numeric values," couldn't the 0/-0 case be mentioned as well? From nobody Tue Jun 21 08:21:10 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A51712D95F for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 08:21:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9vD0_54qj4qI for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 08:21:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vk0-x22f.google.com (mail-vk0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BE64D12D14A for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 08:21:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vk0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id j2so24727766vkg.2 for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 08:21:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc; bh=JVSKMAM0YTdjRQD9itb3W7PZXRXtGeXiNAQe4YAO6JY=; b=HELYx5jqHAz3wb1kO2/t41CSXqgzbWccAgyWWciIPsIrT4ACvGvaBe2o9TCKWHzQCm rQ7vTC2MPt1zHu+zeOl9H1iwFQPWZ4PSQaIatFfy34UHGqykh2TWL8PpP76+08pqeoOD lFPY/XoID0H+PXfO3cmsNfSastnyFeDM8Z7iIXYaVbSwUzhwqSqyOgwdZWRa9sC/unz2 XhiShIlRV/a4Ty01BSJiirrTWreQD+OULlkEv7TCr8IAAqaiNm35IVK+hOk16pocaS5k uwGRg8UQHCm2YaKxWesuDSvDIh9DMPOPGucNImHQjcceU7zaSa6/4PWxuisdK48BBkke XiQA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=JVSKMAM0YTdjRQD9itb3W7PZXRXtGeXiNAQe4YAO6JY=; b=Anp/vwEf8aKaISZVhXXwJv7k3NYq221VLlQB9KM09AvzszuhHt0AgJQHmavF47UEUB 1q0ejucs3KK7s0T2KiuJ683tHHrUVFqrw89YUHtUu6+8IJZ7Wkstn0kHCccufHV9vddi CDCRh8pwM8zsIJvO7JkWcy/nxsjp72/3g21DD0OehP00Btz1sjnApIIfH9vA7iaUVTQ2 qESne72pVZwMQjo3JfD0GGM3Yv7rzZEJLQqGwGUSCZvjyF47Pc8NKO4V8J/0/al+CVSS KOZ3uuV1AdpOMZz+zGZOVY2/iKPXIjLLWYzISRR9MshBBZrqwi2RztWRBvTD3+LA6nNP zMZA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tKrwNzG1kXgSDRrIpFLiACY2BBHlc7XT7LvAx1X1Xo54lyyhwj2DRkg8rU+/NTDjODey0BDLe59ZIh1pQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.31.203.131 with SMTP id b125mr10228828vkg.5.1466522465725; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 08:21:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.103.71.155 with HTTP; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 08:21:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.103.71.155 with HTTP; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 08:21:05 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <8e5dc4b2-a897-30e7-6e37-921c463275cd@gmail.com> References: <2a7f88b9-f719-dfd8-08a9-1777833e53d8@gmail.com> <57684982.2010705@tzi.org> <8e5dc4b2-a897-30e7-6e37-921c463275cd@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 17:21:05 +0200 Message-ID: From: Anders Rundgren To: Christian Zangl Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114dd0609ff2a40535cb5e84 Archived-At: Cc: Carsten Bormann , JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] Minus Zero X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 15:21:08 -0000 --001a114dd0609ff2a40535cb5e84 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Jun 20, 2016 10:55 PM, "Christian Zangl" wrote: > > On 2016-06-20 21:52, Carsten Bormann wrote: >>> >>> Serialization is not really a part of the JSON RFC. >> >> >> Well, it defines a format that can be used to serialize the JSON data >> model, but is not specific about corner cases in that data model. >> >>> ECMAScript V6 (ES6) is is the only normative JSON serialization reference. >> >> >> But that is only relevant to ES6 implementations; we don't have to care. > > > OK, but since RFC 7159/6. already mentions "[..] Note that when such software is used, numbers that are integers and are in the range [-(2**53)+1, (2**53)-1] are interoperable in the sense that implementations will agree exactly on their numeric values," couldn't the 0/-0 case be mentioned as well? > Implementstions do NOT agree on floating point serialization. Neither text (like E or e), leading zeroes or even values are to be counted on. Anders --001a114dd0609ff2a40535cb5e84 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Jun 20, 2016 10:55 PM, "Christian Zangl" <coralllama@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 2016-06-20 21:52, Carsten Bormann wrote:
>>>
>>> Serialization is not really a part of the JSON RFC.
>>
>>
>> Well, it defines a format that can be used to serialize the JSON d= ata
>> model, but is not specific about corner cases in that data model.<= br> >>
>>> ECMAScript V6 (ES6) is is the only normative JSON serializatio= n reference.
>>
>>
>> But that is only relevant to ES6 implementations; we don't hav= e to care.
>
>
> OK, but since RFC 7159/6. already mentions "[..] Note that when s= uch software is used, numbers that are integers and are in the range [-(2**= 53)+1, (2**53)-1] are interoperable in the sense that implementations will = agree exactly on their numeric values," couldn't the 0/-0 case be = mentioned as well?
>

Implementstions do NOT agree on floating point serialization= .=C2=A0 Neither text (like E or e), leading zeroes or even values are to be= counted on.

Anders

--001a114dd0609ff2a40535cb5e84-- From nobody Tue Jun 21 08:42:52 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECE8D12D976 for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 08:42:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.027 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.027 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id M51EPsjLcY0e for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 08:42:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CFF0912B00B for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 08:42:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1bFNp7-0003x6-Ni; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 11:42:46 -0400 Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 11:42:45 -0400 From: John Cowan To: Anders Rundgren Message-ID: <20160621154243.GG13605@mercury.ccil.org> References: <2a7f88b9-f719-dfd8-08a9-1777833e53d8@gmail.com> <57684982.2010705@tzi.org> <8e5dc4b2-a897-30e7-6e37-921c463275cd@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Sender: John Cowan Archived-At: Cc: Carsten Bormann , Christian Zangl , JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] Minus Zero X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 15:42:51 -0000 Anders Rundgren scripsit: > Implementstions do NOT agree on floating point serialization. Neither text > (like E or e), leading zeroes or even values are to be counted on. Disagreement on the lexical details of production does not mean disagreement on interpretation, which is what is at stake here. Nobody supposes that 10, 1e1, 1E1, 10.0, 10.00 mean different things. The same is not true for 0.0 and -0.0. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org Nobody expects the RESTifarian Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise ... surprise and tedium ... tedium and surprise .... Our two weapons are tedium and surprise ... and ruthless disregard for unpleasant facts.... Our three weapons are tedium, surprise, and ruthless disregard ... and an almost fanatical devotion to Roy Fielding.... From nobody Tue Jun 21 10:03:14 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 262FD12DB19 for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 10:03:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mFP7O840ZZqs for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 10:03:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x230.google.com (mail-lf0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5772C12DB09 for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 10:03:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x230.google.com with SMTP id h129so33194341lfh.1 for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 10:03:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=fNWx2K0CAlrycNgB/8eIIP4y/Df9m9ecOv7iCGnKD08=; b=uWzQEc/kAunGyVSBOmqrT3T3SM2p/9r9qVLREVu/Gk0u/5bzGSYr/maxPPaVftQJMV PHDKX8eLaakCu3I5zULELH7fObTDQoK5Hl7J3DppwYyzDTrLkHR/Nj2LeGiELjBKhCAS ZxYn4eUeaM/8iiGUxq08eTvPfE+41zzMPB/ogEcNFdKx6M/waSWm0ShNIV191crUckKh y1w1PkBd83yti3s77t9s89jwcAZuU3Hn0Qe4JKAlsPwBRj28Y5FTuUU5UDn9VM1rQI0+ ydvY3MJ5VRNQaNcPpKuFdN7gnzWSGoK9vzKxsxv+G3VeMNn5u0W0RSpmubDMvtqnMzKE qfYg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=fNWx2K0CAlrycNgB/8eIIP4y/Df9m9ecOv7iCGnKD08=; b=hSa3lKMywaGXCawm4x5e3SV8vMqygPdTH8N3itSSjiwQpWEQaGCwi2P0hrtcE+yprO QoTJoIBAw9YI/T+vrAHbDDZY98nmu+JnGofak/Coo5g2xV1PYshUbGgoNHoi/ZVM8K+h IDdIQIhw0llA56d6VuONojUbYv8NfP+KnOmJOY5Mx/B5jQ4CQJwClrfvljiXBgoB4AZT hE2f7Qvoj5Ibsy5TyT3moUJTVSozAz5l+QZ7/NMgz/+sNPQbkPuEOTW4AglFDgpkiaWc hVb6m07TqWKR4f6xZHcT+uhRLUF8f68EU5Fu9jhvTdw5PYcEe6PsCURdOtAIKMgTjzWl sMNQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tJ/QTAymd6dMupozAnaeDBj2SFm5ReUgIfAMoVG8wVF1iQjA+Zf0OMPLzp2KIs/ow== X-Received: by 10.28.150.81 with SMTP id y78mr4252649wmd.37.1466528582412; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 10:03:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.59.59.54] (78-21-55-11.access.telenet.be. [78.21.55.11]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id b187sm3816462wmg.15.2016.06.21.10.03.01 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 21 Jun 2016 10:03:01 -0700 (PDT) To: John Cowan References: <2a7f88b9-f719-dfd8-08a9-1777833e53d8@gmail.com> <57684982.2010705@tzi.org> <8e5dc4b2-a897-30e7-6e37-921c463275cd@gmail.com> <20160621154243.GG13605@mercury.ccil.org> From: Anders Rundgren Message-ID: <6d834be1-14c3-d8b4-09dd-2a992cfe55a6@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 19:02:56 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20160621154243.GG13605@mercury.ccil.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: Carsten Bormann , Christian Zangl , JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] Minus Zero X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 17:03:13 -0000 On 2016-06-21 17:42, John Cowan wrote: > Anders Rundgren scripsit: > >> Implementstions do NOT agree on floating point serialization. Neither text >> (like E or e), leading zeroes or even values are to be counted on. > > Disagreement on the lexical details of production does not mean disagreement > on interpretation, which is what is at stake here. Nobody supposes that > 10, 1e1, 1E1, 10.0, 10.00 mean different things. The same is not true for > 0.0 and -0.0. > Apparently the ES6 folks consider IEEE 0.0 and -0.0 equal during JSON serialization. This is probably a reasonable conclusion since non-normalized numbers are treated differently. It is also better aligned with integers. In order to make anything else JSON would need separate integer and floating point types. Anders From nobody Tue Jun 21 13:41:57 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B61C812D94D for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 13:41:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.027 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.027 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7MHGqr926iI1 for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 13:41:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 593CE12D94A for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 13:41:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1bFSUZ-0003bh-5N; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 16:41:51 -0400 Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 16:41:51 -0400 From: John Cowan To: Anders Rundgren Message-ID: <20160621204150.GJ13605@mercury.ccil.org> References: <2a7f88b9-f719-dfd8-08a9-1777833e53d8@gmail.com> <57684982.2010705@tzi.org> <8e5dc4b2-a897-30e7-6e37-921c463275cd@gmail.com> <20160621154243.GG13605@mercury.ccil.org> <6d834be1-14c3-d8b4-09dd-2a992cfe55a6@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <6d834be1-14c3-d8b4-09dd-2a992cfe55a6@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Sender: John Cowan Archived-At: Cc: Carsten Bormann , Christian Zangl , JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] Minus Zero X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 20:41:56 -0000 Anders Rundgren scripsit: > Apparently the ES6 folks consider IEEE 0.0 and -0.0 equal during JSON > serialization. In effect that means that -0, like NaN and Infinity and -Infinity, can't be serialized correctly as JSON. But instead of being serialized as null, it's serialized the same as 0. > In order to make anything else JSON would need separate integer and > floating point types. I don't understand that. JavaScript's internal model of numbers already includes -0.0 (e.g. the value of the expression 1/(-1*0) is -Infinity). The node.js and Chrome REPLs will print -0 in appropriate circumstances (whereas the Rhino and Edge REPLs will not). -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org But the next day there came no dawn, and the Grey Company passed on into the darkness of the Storm of Mordor and were lost to mortal sight; but the Dead followed them. --"The Passing of the Grey Company" From nobody Tue Jun 21 14:48:18 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D42012D7E2 for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 14:48:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gxwHHtVf7tHz for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 14:48:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay6-d.mail.gandi.net (relay6-d.mail.gandi.net [217.70.183.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7A74B12D7D7 for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 14:48:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mfilter27-d.gandi.net (mfilter27-d.gandi.net [217.70.178.155]) by relay6-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0CC1FB8A1; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 23:48:13 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mfilter27-d.gandi.net Received: from relay6-d.mail.gandi.net ([IPv6:::ffff:217.70.183.198]) by mfilter27-d.gandi.net (mfilter27-d.gandi.net [::ffff:10.0.15.180]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pSoewktdeMm3; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 23:48:12 +0200 (CEST) X-Originating-IP: 93.199.242.26 Received: from nar-3.local (p5DC7F21A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [93.199.242.26]) (Authenticated sender: cabo@cabo.im) by relay6-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9E3AEFB882; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 23:48:11 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <5769B61A.9010701@tzi.org> Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 23:48:10 +0200 From: Carsten Bormann User-Agent: Postbox 4.0.8 (Macintosh/20151105) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Cowan References: <2a7f88b9-f719-dfd8-08a9-1777833e53d8@gmail.com> <57684982.2010705@tzi.org> <8e5dc4b2-a897-30e7-6e37-921c463275cd@gmail.com> <20160621154243.GG13605@mercury.ccil.org> <6d834be1-14c3-d8b4-09dd-2a992cfe55a6@gmail.com> <20160621204150.GJ13605@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20160621204150.GJ13605@mercury.ccil.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.2.3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Cc: JSON WG , Christian Zangl , Anders Rundgren Subject: Re: [Json] Minus Zero X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 21:48:17 -0000 John Cowan wrote: > The node.js and Chrome REPLs will print -0 in appropriate circumstances > (whereas the Rhino and Edge REPLs will not). The REPLs will, thankfully, but JSON.stringify(-0) (which is the JSON implementation defined in more recent JavaScripts) acts broken as designed (ES5.1 15.2.3 second list number 9a with 9.8.1 number 2; ES6 24.3.2.1 number 10a with 7.1.12.1 number 2). Grüße, Carsten From nobody Wed Jun 22 08:49:27 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CBEC12D95A for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2016 08:49:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id emN4HFuQVRNX for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2016 08:49:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x22e.google.com (mail-wm0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C8CC412DA4E for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2016 08:37:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id a66so11696466wme.0 for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2016 08:37:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=UL+IeliQo2/SgxxU+avlZqt3EdsM110sMoYLj8ski7Y=; b=dANWZgkGt+cWRLLa8O4PbM6uQj4ygNDC4C7GSg0AtyqzGIlxa3nAZkrOqMl6dPeZMG nDxT+T7pJPg9SEeoRGcMlQls1xXQ6jLubLjpno3ZEvdvmEaxjRGW3EDUoI/olNj7xd6E GreGaQdD90E84STyBN2xECozJ2RDwtKty4fyl/zBrf4FyHHrz2lAAtZeHemwtrdp/Ynd oNFdY5OWqmsaZuaeyKcdM3QiZHYETxZldys8qP21OWX9/Wz0danLlO1c1oQUWXWaXaak QC4vpjSyo+LC8sFKeYM+zBw2x48gghJhnshg0pzMM7RFeaoIuP8SuKON9KboKTkh8Ve+ PD6A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=UL+IeliQo2/SgxxU+avlZqt3EdsM110sMoYLj8ski7Y=; b=cbXJntF2FXEBnet6iTmrs0gCR1vlw9HIANLr9C0qR3t+I43R9XfbBeMe1gRdiDwesO CF0TOAQEK7794AF5DXr/lRiASw9WWoAqoHYrrX/tOGrXZBlrI8Z3S0sIi3yMRP71n5e9 0PfjmisZ8G0MksIqSisN9t9sjMrFyzrafjop5Fm5qMuqafGycjVBXb8lH/axx2cK/txL PEAJbBGNnCCqjAtJ7+rIo5g21OB8RP6HYVzpQ2zplLE9voDIqzIkrE4YOXsiyt9b+Bn6 MwkQnxtnINtHDWuaD0txwFveO3OylphHEMlOoFyH/J+lsCOpT/OWZgo8h58c/o3EESYa 31Xw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tKbelt/S2Sf8ll5WXlMaUIuH4PEfc/fv5eL66+8ZupCq1Q2jJb01I0z9YwFdERnLA== X-Received: by 10.194.81.166 with SMTP id b6mr27142575wjy.81.1466609870351; Wed, 22 Jun 2016 08:37:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.28.0.180] ([46.218.0.106]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id a4sm51887653wjq.40.2016.06.22.08.37.49 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 22 Jun 2016 08:37:49 -0700 (PDT) To: John Cowan References: <2a7f88b9-f719-dfd8-08a9-1777833e53d8@gmail.com> <57684982.2010705@tzi.org> <8e5dc4b2-a897-30e7-6e37-921c463275cd@gmail.com> <20160621154243.GG13605@mercury.ccil.org> <6d834be1-14c3-d8b4-09dd-2a992cfe55a6@gmail.com> <20160621204150.GJ13605@mercury.ccil.org> From: Anders Rundgren Message-ID: Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 17:37:43 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20160621204150.GJ13605@mercury.ccil.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: Carsten Bormann , Christian Zangl , JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] Minus Zero X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 15:49:25 -0000 On 2016-06-21 22:41, John Cowan wrote: > Anders Rundgren scripsit: > >> Apparently the ES6 folks consider IEEE 0.0 and -0.0 equal during JSON >> serialization. > > In effect that means that -0, like NaN and Infinity and -Infinity, can't > be serialized correctly as JSON. But instead of being serialized as null, > it's serialized the same as 0. I would have done the same. -0.0 is as I understand as close to zero you can get. The need for separating the -0.0 and 0.0 in real-world applications is probably 0.0 :-) If full IEEE notation is needed "string" representation seems to be the only way ahead. >> In order to make anything else JSON would need separate integer and >> floating point types. > > I don't understand that. JavaScript's internal model of numbers already > includes -0.0 (e.g. the value of the expression 1/(-1*0) is -Infinity). > The node.js and Chrome REPLs will print -0 in appropriate circumstances > (whereas the Rhino and Edge REPLs will not). I just referred to the fact that -0 is not a useful way of serializing an integer, it only makes (some) sense in an IEEE floating point world. By using a single type for holding "Number", the designers had to do some compromises. In my java-based JSON parser I have added additional checks so that if you expect an integer using a getInt() access method, "19.0" would generate an exception. Serializing integers above abs((2**53)-1) also generates an exception. Anders From nobody Wed Jun 22 13:31:46 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: json@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78A1412D8EB for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2016 13:31:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.027 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.027 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wonYTSYa2Qyn for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2016 13:31:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D803912D698 for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2016 13:31:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1bFooG-0000jA-3C; Wed, 22 Jun 2016 16:31:40 -0400 Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 16:31:39 -0400 From: John Cowan To: Anders Rundgren Message-ID: <20160622203139.GA24500@mercury.ccil.org> References: <2a7f88b9-f719-dfd8-08a9-1777833e53d8@gmail.com> <57684982.2010705@tzi.org> <8e5dc4b2-a897-30e7-6e37-921c463275cd@gmail.com> <20160621154243.GG13605@mercury.ccil.org> <6d834be1-14c3-d8b4-09dd-2a992cfe55a6@gmail.com> <20160621204150.GJ13605@mercury.ccil.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Sender: John Cowan Archived-At: Cc: Carsten Bormann , Christian Zangl , JSON WG Subject: Re: [Json] Minus Zero X-BeenThere: json@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: "JavaScript Object Notation \(JSON\) WG mailing list" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 20:31:45 -0000 Anders Rundgren scripsit: > I would have done the same. -0.0 is as I understand as close to zero > you can get. The need for separating the -0.0 and 0.0 in real-world > applications is probably 0.0 :-) Well, if you make use of affine infinity (that is, you distinguish Infinity from -Infinity), then you need two kinds of zeros, positive and negative. They are numerically equal, but are arithmetically distinguishable. > I just referred to the fact that -0 is not a useful way of serializing > an integer, True. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org Economists were put on this planet to make astrologers look good. --Leo McGarry