
From olivier.bonaventure@uclouvain.be  Mon Jun  1 02:04:15 2009
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Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2009 11:04:02 +0200
From: Olivier Bonaventure <Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be>
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Subject: Re: [lisp] Can I get opinions?
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Dino,

> Since the list has brought up packet formats, I would like to suggest
> this packet format change for draft-ietf-lisp-02.txt (about to release
> draft-ietf-lisp-01.txt):
> 
>       +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>   L / |                      Locator Reach Bits                       |
>   I   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>   S \ |S|E|rsvd-flags |               Nonce                           |
>   P   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> 
> The E-bit is for the echo-nonce idea that Andrew Partan and Noel Chiappa
> came up with. We will document it relatively soon. I'm doing an
> implementation of it right now to see how it works.
> 
> What we get from the previous version:
> 
> 1) 32 loc-reach-bits rather than 31.

31 or 32 bits is the same. I'm still in favor of the versioning solution
proposed by Luigi. The locator reach bits only cover the case where
mapping changes when a RLOC becomes unreachable. The versionning
approach is more generic as it is applicable also for other changes in
the mapping.

> 2) Set aside flag bits for future use.

This is important for the evolution of the protocol.

> 3) Settling for a 24-bit nonce rather than a 32-bit nonce. But this is
> only in the data packet header and not in the nonce that is carried in
> UDP port 4342. That nonce remains at 32 bits.

We still need to document the exact usage of the 24 bits nonce in data
encapsulated packets.


Olivier
-- 
http://inl.info.ucl.ac.be , UCLouvain, Belgium

From hartmans@mit.edu  Mon Jun  1 09:25:31 2009
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To: lisp@ietf.org
From: Sam Hartman <hartmans-ietf@mit.edu>
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2009 12:25:24 -0400
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Subject: [lisp] How blocked on versioning and PMTU are we?
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There has been a lot of discussion of the LISP header on the list.

If I'm reading things correctly,

* There appears to be consensus that we're marking part of the control
  packet header reserved.

* Dino has proposed a new header format.

A few people have agreed that Dino's format is a step forward.
However we have two related open issues:

1) PMTU handling--do we need reassembly/other PMTU information in the header

2) map versioning

Question to those who want to see changes related to PMTU or map
versioning.  Is it OK for Dino to go ahead and make the change he
proposed or do we need to block on resolution of these issues?

If we do change the header now rather than blocking on these two
issues, we cannot later use arguments about how recently we've changed
the header or about not wanting to introduce churn as arguments
against PMTU or map versioning.

As a warning, I do not yet understand the map versioning issue well
enough to make a consensus call.  One of the things I don't understand
about that issue is whether there has been enough discussion that it
would be reasonable to make a consensus call.

I do think I understand the PMTU issue well enough to believe that it
has not been sufficiently discussed in this forum, although I
understand that it has been discussed prior to this working group
being formed at length.

From jmh@joelhalpern.com  Mon Jun  1 09:41:59 2009
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From: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
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Subject: Re: [lisp] How blocked on versioning and PMTU are we?
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Assuming, as you state below, that we agree taht we may change the 
header yet again, then I think adopting Dino's proposal at least for now 
is a good idea.
We need to get more discussion of at least the versioning (even after 
reviewing that draft, I am town as to whether it is a good idea or a bad 
idea.)

Yours,
Joel

Sam Hartman wrote:
> 
> There has been a lot of discussion of the LISP header on the list.
> 
> If I'm reading things correctly,
> 
> * There appears to be consensus that we're marking part of the control
>   packet header reserved.
> 
> * Dino has proposed a new header format.
> 
> A few people have agreed that Dino's format is a step forward.
> However we have two related open issues:
> 
> 1) PMTU handling--do we need reassembly/other PMTU information in the header
> 
> 2) map versioning
> 
> Question to those who want to see changes related to PMTU or map
> versioning.  Is it OK for Dino to go ahead and make the change he
> proposed or do we need to block on resolution of these issues?
> 
> If we do change the header now rather than blocking on these two
> issues, we cannot later use arguments about how recently we've changed
> the header or about not wanting to introduce churn as arguments
> against PMTU or map versioning.
> 
> As a warning, I do not yet understand the map versioning issue well
> enough to make a consensus call.  One of the things I don't understand
> about that issue is whether there has been enough discussion that it
> would be reasonable to make a consensus call.
> 
> I do think I understand the PMTU issue well enough to believe that it
> has not been sufficiently discussed in this forum, although I
> understand that it has been discussed prior to this working group
> being formed at length.
> _______________________________________________
> lisp mailing list
> lisp@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lisp
> 

From damien.saucez@uclouvain.be  Mon Jun  1 09:56:39 2009
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Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2009 18:56:20 +0200
From: Damien Saucez <damien.saucez@uclouvain.be>
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Subject: Re: [lisp] How blocked on versioning and PMTU are we?
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Maybe we can use Dino's proposal until we have a consensus and let the 
question about PMTU and versioning open for now.

Sam, could you start a new thread to start an "official" discussion on 
these two topics?

Cheers,

Damien Saucez
P.S.: we also have to discuss security, do we want security for the 
mapping only or also for the data packets? In the latter case, it means 
that we would probably change the header.

Joel M. Halpern wrote:
> Assuming, as you state below, that we agree taht we may change the 
> header yet again, then I think adopting Dino's proposal at least for 
> now is a good idea.
> We need to get more discussion of at least the versioning (even after 
> reviewing that draft, I am town as to whether it is a good idea or a 
> bad idea.)
>
> Yours,
> Joel
>
> Sam Hartman wrote:
>>
>> There has been a lot of discussion of the LISP header on the list.
>>
>> If I'm reading things correctly,
>>
>> * There appears to be consensus that we're marking part of the control
>>   packet header reserved.
>>
>> * Dino has proposed a new header format.
>>
>> A few people have agreed that Dino's format is a step forward.
>> However we have two related open issues:
>>
>> 1) PMTU handling--do we need reassembly/other PMTU information in the 
>> header
>>
>> 2) map versioning
>>
>> Question to those who want to see changes related to PMTU or map
>> versioning.  Is it OK for Dino to go ahead and make the change he
>> proposed or do we need to block on resolution of these issues?
>>
>> If we do change the header now rather than blocking on these two
>> issues, we cannot later use arguments about how recently we've changed
>> the header or about not wanting to introduce churn as arguments
>> against PMTU or map versioning.
>>
>> As a warning, I do not yet understand the map versioning issue well
>> enough to make a consensus call.  One of the things I don't understand
>> about that issue is whether there has been enough discussion that it
>> would be reasonable to make a consensus call.
>>
>> I do think I understand the PMTU issue well enough to believe that it
>> has not been sufficiently discussed in this forum, although I
>> understand that it has been discussed prior to this working group
>> being formed at length.
>> _______________________________________________
>> lisp mailing list
>> lisp@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lisp
>>
> _______________________________________________
> lisp mailing list
> lisp@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lisp


From hartmans@mit.edu  Mon Jun  1 10:17:42 2009
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To: Damien Saucez <damien.saucez@uclouvain.be>
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From: Sam Hartman <hartmans-ietf@mit.edu>
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2009 13:17:37 -0400
In-Reply-To: <4A240834.7000106@uclouvain.be> (Damien Saucez's message of "Mon\, 01 Jun 2009 18\:56\:20 +0200")
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Subject: Re: [lisp] How blocked on versioning and PMTU are we?
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y
    Damien> Maybe we can use Dino's proposal until we have a consensus
    Damien> and let the question about PMTU and versioning open for
    Damien> now.

    Damien> Sam, could you start a new thread to start an "official"
    Damien> discussion on these two topics?

I'm actually asking Fred to do that for PMTU.

Let me read the map versioning draft and start a thread.

From luigi@net.t-labs.tu-berlin.de  Tue Jun  2 00:15:31 2009
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Message-Id: <4A87C591-F5C3-4180-8FBB-D71E65F00145@net.t-labs.tu-berlin.de>
From: Luigi Iannone <luigi@net.t-labs.tu-berlin.de>
To: lisp@ietf.org
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Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 09:14:30 +0200
References: <tsleiu3exaj.fsf@mit.edu> <4A2404D0.9080406@joelhalpern.com> <4A240834.7000106@uclouvain.be> <tslws7vdgb2.fsf@mit.edu>
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Cc: Olivier Bonaventure <Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be>
Subject: [lisp] Map-Versioning
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Hi All,

I was replying to the mail of Dino:

http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/lisp/current/msg00541.html

and I thought that may be is a good start for the discussion on map- 
versioning.

Attached are my comments to Dino's slide (format is pdf, but if you  
need any other format please ask), hope this will generate discussion.

Cheers

Luigi


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From hartmans@mit.edu  Tue Jun  2 07:40:08 2009
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From: Sam Hartman <hartmans-ietf@mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 10:40:01 -0400
In-Reply-To: <4A87C591-F5C3-4180-8FBB-D71E65F00145@net.t-labs.tu-berlin.de> (Luigi Iannone's message of "Tue\, 2 Jun 2009 09\:14\:30 +0200")
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Cc: Olivier Bonaventure <Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be>, lisp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [lisp] Map-Versioning
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Your slides jump right into describing the solution with map
versioning, which really isn't such a great place to start a
discussion of it.

That discussion should start with the problem.

If I understand the mail between you and Dino correctly, there are two
concerns you have.

1) An attacker can manipulate the reachability bits and either create
a DOS or cause traffic to take a path that gives the attacker some
advantage.

2) Certain update situations could get the ITR and ETR out of sync
about what the reachability bits map to and this could cause a problem
for traffic.

Is that the problem you're trying to solve?

Dino's answer seems to be that:

1) If you care about these attacks you can verify the reachability
bits.  Presumably we (the WG) will need to consider what mandatory
guidance to give on this issue if we don't adopt map versioning.

2) There exist algorithms for adding/removing a locator in which the
changes to the reachability bits are non-ambiguous.  Presumably if we
don't adopt map versioning we'll need to make sure that the spec
mandates such an update procedure.

Have I got things right as far as I've gone?

From dino@cisco.com  Tue Jun  2 10:31:11 2009
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From: Dino Farinacci <dino@cisco.com>
To: Sam Hartman <hartmans-ietf@mit.edu>
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Cc: Olivier Bonaventure <Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be>, lisp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [lisp] Map-Versioning
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Sam, let me phrase what we have been discussing another way. We have  
the following subject matters:

(1) How to update ITRs which have old map-caches when a database  
mapping for a LISP site changes.

(2) Should we put an 8-bit flags field in the data encapsulation header.

(3) Are there anymore MTU issues.

(4) Can the loc-reach-bits in the data encapsulation header can  
compromised.

I believe the status for each is:

(1) You can use SMRs for map-cache updates according to the existing  
spec or you can use draft-iannone-lisp-mapping-versioning-00.txt,  
referred to as "map-versioning". The later requires header format  
changes and Luigi gave 3 options in his IETF presentation.

(2) We have *some* consensus gain on this. However, the E-bit for  
doing nonce-echoing has not been fully flushed out. So we should wait  
for changes IMO.

(3) I looked through all of Fred Templin's emails and his suggested  
text and made clarifying changes to draft-ietf-lisp-01.txt. So I think  
this issue is closed. We have 2 mechanisms to deal with MTU issues  
with encapsulation. One is stateless and the other is stateful which  
was offered by Luigi and team. They are simple mechanisms that use  
existing standards (Fragmentation and PMTU Discovery).

(4) We have documented in the latest spec (went in many revisions ago)  
that the loc-reach-bits are a hint and used for a certain class of  
failures (close to the destination LISP site) and that the loc-reach- 
bits need verification by round-trip exchange between the receiver  
(that wants to take action on the loc-reach-bit change) and the sender  
of the loc-reach-bits.

Dino

On Jun 2, 2009, at 7:40 AM, Sam Hartman wrote:

> Your slides jump right into describing the solution with map
> versioning, which really isn't such a great place to start a
> discussion of it.
>
> That discussion should start with the problem.
>
> If I understand the mail between you and Dino correctly, there are two
> concerns you have.
>
> 1) An attacker can manipulate the reachability bits and either create
> a DOS or cause traffic to take a path that gives the attacker some
> advantage.
>
> 2) Certain update situations could get the ITR and ETR out of sync
> about what the reachability bits map to and this could cause a problem
> for traffic.
>
> Is that the problem you're trying to solve?
>
> Dino's answer seems to be that:
>
> 1) If you care about these attacks you can verify the reachability
> bits.  Presumably we (the WG) will need to consider what mandatory
> guidance to give on this issue if we don't adopt map versioning.
>
> 2) There exist algorithms for adding/removing a locator in which the
> changes to the reachability bits are non-ambiguous.  Presumably if we
> don't adopt map versioning we'll need to make sure that the spec
> mandates such an update procedure.
>
> Have I got things right as far as I've gone?
> _______________________________________________
> lisp mailing list
> lisp@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lisp


From olivier.bonaventure@uclouvain.be  Tue Jun  2 12:58:45 2009
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Subject: Re: [lisp] Map-Versioning
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Sam,

> Your slides jump right into describing the solution with map
> versioning, which really isn't such a great place to start a
> discussion of it.
> 
> That discussion should start with the problem.

I think that the problem can be described as follows :

How does an ETR responsible for an EID prefix informs an ITR about a
change in the mapping for this prefix ?

There are two different answers to this question.

The first answer, based on the current draft and Dino's presentation can
be summarised as follows :

- the most important change is a change in the reachability of one ETRs
that can be used to reach the prefix. The loc reach bits placed inside
the header of all encapsulated data packets can be used to inform the
ITR of any change in reachability of one of these ETRs

- the other changes (weigths, preference, ...) can be handled by first
decreasing the ttl of the mapping, ... see Dino's slides for more
information about this procedure.

The second answer, described in LISP Mapping Versioning, can be
summarised as follows :

- all changes (reachability, weight, preference, addition/removal of one
ETR) are equally important

- each mapping has a version number and any change in the mapping causes
a change of version number. The ITR places in the header of data
encapsulated packets the version number of its mapping and the version
number of the mapping of the destination prefix that it knows. By
looking at the version number found in the received data encapsulated
packets, it can check whether the mapping has changed and send a
Map-Request if a change has been detected to retrieve the new mapping


Olivier


-- 
http://inl.info.ucl.ac.be , UCLouvain, Belgium

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From: "Templin, Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>
To: <lisp@ietf.org>
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Subject: [lisp] Path MTU concerns and proposed resolutions
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Folks,

I'd like to try to summarize the MTU concerns as follows:

1. Insertion of an outer IP header at the ITR reduces the
   effective MTU on the path to the ETR.
2. The IPv4 IP_ID field is only 16bits (too small to safely
   support sustained fragmentation at high data rates).
3. Fragmentation in routers performed in slow path
4. Overhead for reassembly in ETRs is too onerous in some
   scenarios
5. Outer ICMP messages from routers on the path to the ETR may
   be lost and/or not contain enough information for translation
   into inner ICMP messages to send back to the original source
6. Outer ICMP messages from routers on the path may be
   insufficiently provisioned to allow for authentication
7. since the ITR is an in-the-network tunnel, hitting an MTU
   restriction in the path to the ETR results in a flood of
   ICMP Packet Too Big (PTB) messages coming from the network
   and bombarding the ITR

About proposed resolutions, the key idea is for the ITR to
only accept PTB feedback coming from ETRs and not accept it
from "anonymous" middleboxes. This feedback will get through
in instances where "vanilla" ICMP feedback might not, since
the feedback is sent in the control plane which may not
necessarily share the same channel as the data plane.

Comments?

Fred
fred.l.templin@boeing.com

From hartmans@mit.edu  Wed Jun  3 08:29:56 2009
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From: Sam Hartman <hartmans-ietf@mit.edu>
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In-Reply-To: <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105FF997C@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> (Fred L. Templin's message of "Tue\, 2 Jun 2009 13\:29\:22 -0700")
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Subject: Re: [lisp] Path MTU concerns and proposed resolutions
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>>>>> "Templin," == Templin, Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> writes:

    Templin,> Comments?

Fred, thanks for your message.  I think that you've written down some
of the generic concerns with PMTU issues you might run into when you
introduce a tunnel into the network.  Now, you need to focus these
concerns on LISP.  First, Dino claims he made changes in 01 that
attempt to solve your PMTU issues.
I'd appreciate it if you could review lisp-01's discussions of MTU and then focus the discussion as it applies to LISP.

In particular, the draft presents arguments about why LISP packets are
unlikely to run into situations where the MTU is reduced.
How does that argument affect your concerns?

Also, the draft presents both a stateful and stateless mechanism for
handling PMTU concerns.  To what extent do the issues that you bring up apply in each of these cases?

--Sam

From dino@cisco.com  Wed Jun  3 08:44:36 2009
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Cc: lisp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [lisp] Path MTU concerns and proposed resolutions
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Let me add to Sam's reply.

> I'd like to try to summarize the MTU concerns as follows:
>
> 1. Insertion of an outer IP header at the ITR reduces the
>   effective MTU on the path to the ETR.

Correct. The case for all tunneling protocols.

> 2. The IPv4 IP_ID field is only 16bits (too small to safely
>   support sustained fragmentation at high data rates).

You can use different source RLOCs if this would ever be a problem.

> 3. Fragmentation in routers performed in slow path

Not true.

> 4. Overhead for reassembly in ETRs is too onerous in some
>   scenarios

Nothing in the LISP spec says the ETR reassembles fragments.

> 5. Outer ICMP messages from routers on the path to the ETR may
>   be lost and/or not contain enough information for translation
>   into inner ICMP messages to send back to the original source

See the spec how we solved this for IPv4 traceroute. The same problem  
exists there. Using the UDP source port you can find the originating  
source, if you wanted to propagate the ICMP Too Big message back to  
the source *at the time the ICMP Too Big was received by the ITR*. The  
stateful solution in the LISP spec says, you cache the effective MTU  
in the map-cache entry and the next packet sent by the source to this  
ITR will result in a ICMP Too Big message sent to the source. A much  
better solution IMO.

> 6. Outer ICMP messages from routers on the path may be
>   insufficiently provisioned to allow for authentication

This comment needs to be stated more specifically. Please restate. Any  
datagram protocol will have a difficult time being authenticated. You  
need lots of state and several packet exchanges. The Internet has  
survived quite well without it.

> 7. since the ITR is an in-the-network tunnel, hitting an MTU
>   restriction in the path to the ETR results in a flood of
>   ICMP Packet Too Big (PTB) messages coming from the network
>   and bombarding the ITR

ICMP Too Big messages could bombard any system today (without LISP).  
It does not happen for these reasons:

(1) ICMP Too Big messages are rate-limited by all popular router  
implementations.
(2) ICMP Too Big messages are turned off in core routers.
(3) ICMP Too Big messages are filtered at site boundaries so an ITR  
may never see one.

> About proposed resolutions, the key idea is for the ITR to
> only accept PTB feedback coming from ETRs and not accept it
> from "anonymous" middleboxes. This feedback will get through
> in instances where "vanilla" ICMP feedback might not, since
> the feedback is sent in the control plane which may not
> necessarily share the same channel as the data plane.
>
> Comments?

How could you expect an xTR at Google/Yahoo/MSN to support such  
control load? We have shown that locator reachability can't scale with  
probing. The same situation arises here too.

Dino

>
>
> Fred
> fred.l.templin@boeing.com
> _______________________________________________
> lisp mailing list
> lisp@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lisp


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Cc: "Templin, Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>, lisp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [lisp] Path MTU concerns and proposed resolutions
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On 6/3/09 5:44 PM, Dino Farinacci wrote:
>> 3. Fragmentation in routers performed in slow path
>
> Not true.

I'd like to go further and say that it shouldn't matter whether it (for 
many values of "it") is done in the slow path or fast path TODAY.  It 
CAN be done in the fast path if it is important to do there.

Eliot

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Cc: lisp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [lisp] Map-Versioning
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> - each mapping has a version number and any change in the mapping  
> causes
> a change of version number. The ITR places in the header of data
> encapsulated packets the version number of its mapping and the version
> number of the mapping of the destination prefix that it knows. By
> looking at the version number found in the received data encapsulated
> packets, it can check whether the mapping has changed and send a
> Map-Request if a change has been detected to retrieve the new mapping

I plan to reply to Luigi's email but have a quick reply for this point.

If the version numbers are used to simply identify a change and prompt  
a Map-Request, then why can't a single bit convey the same thing?

The fact that version numbers exist would convey that multiple mapping  
versions are allowed to exist. I am pretty sure that is not a good  
idea and creates other complexities. With a single bit, you indicate  
that the latest state is what is important to cache rather than  
dealing with intermediate states.

Dino


From jmh@joelhalpern.com  Wed Jun  3 09:24:43 2009
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Subject: Re: [lisp] Map-Versioning
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With one bit of state, in the event of even a single packet loss there 
is ambiguity about what the bit means.  (If the sender sets the bit on 
only one packet, and that packet gets lost, the bit has gotten lost. 
Conversely, if the sender sets the bit on a sequence of packets, then 
the receiver has to figure out whether the successive indications are 
for the same change or different changes.

One could, of course, treat the single bit as a two-state wrapping 
counter.  That would address the problem above.  However, if there are 
two successive changes, that would look like no change at all.  This is 
the question the versioning document seems to be looking at in trying to 
decide how big the sequence number needs to be.  But I find the 
reasoning misleading.  Either there is active communication, or there 
isn't.  If there isn't, then timeouts on the mapping itself will prompt 
new queries.  And, the rate that matters is how often changes take 
place.  As long as the product of the rate-of-change and the supported 
idle-time for simplified detection, is less than the wrap, then we are 
fine. SO I suspect that if we want to go with a sequence number type 
behavior, we probably need more than 1 bit, but fewer than 16 (I end up 
at 8 myself.)

However, I think the question of how many bits to use is secondary to 
the question of which conceptual mechanism we want to have.

(Side note: A flapping xTR should be rapidly taken out of service.  O&M 
problem, not a base protocol issue.)

Yours,
Joel

Dino Farinacci wrote:
>> - each mapping has a version number and any change in the mapping causes
>> a change of version number. The ITR places in the header of data
>> encapsulated packets the version number of its mapping and the version
>> number of the mapping of the destination prefix that it knows. By
>> looking at the version number found in the received data encapsulated
>> packets, it can check whether the mapping has changed and send a
>> Map-Request if a change has been detected to retrieve the new mapping
> 
> I plan to reply to Luigi's email but have a quick reply for this point.
> 
> If the version numbers are used to simply identify a change and prompt a 
> Map-Request, then why can't a single bit convey the same thing?
> 
> The fact that version numbers exist would convey that multiple mapping 
> versions are allowed to exist. I am pretty sure that is not a good idea 
> and creates other complexities. With a single bit, you indicate that the 
> latest state is what is important to cache rather than dealing with 
> intermediate states.
> 
> Dino
> 
> _______________________________________________
> lisp mailing list
> lisp@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lisp
> 

From dino@cisco.com  Wed Jun  3 09:44:12 2009
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Cc: lisp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [lisp] Map-Versioning
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> With one bit of state, in the event of even a single packet loss  
> there is ambiguity about what the bit means.  (If the sender sets  
> the bit on only one packet, and that packet gets lost, the bit has  
> gotten

I said 1 bit. And didn't not mean that 1 packet is sent. The bit can  
stay set in a small packet train of  packets. It works like this:

(1) Site A has a mapping database change.
(2) Site A is currently talking to Site B.
(3) Site A wants to update B's map-cache for itself.
(4) Site A sets the SMR bit in a sequence of packets to Site B. For  
other map-cache entries where the LRU is small, it *does not set the  
SMR-bit* for those sites.
(5) The packet with the SMR-bit set has nonce value <foobar>.
(6) Site B sees the SMR-bit when decapsulating data and tells control  
plane to send a Map-Request with the same nonce value <foobar>.
(7) Site A returns a Map-Reply with nonce value <foobar>.
(8) Site B is updated.

A 3 packet exchange where the first packet traversal piggybacks on  
data. The Site A ITR can control the number of places it receives Map- 
Requests by deciding which map-cache entries to SMR.

> lost. Conversely, if the sender sets the bit on a sequence of  
> packets, then the receiver has to figure out whether the successive  
> indications are for the same change or different changes.

Understand. But a new nonce value from Site A can tell Site B to  
rerequest. That is only going to happen if the changes are on the  
order of milliseconds. That is, within the trip-delay of the 3 packet  
exchange.

> One could, of course, treat the single bit as a two-state wrapping  
> counter.  That would address the problem above.  However, if there  
> are two successive changes, that would look like no change at all.

Interesting. So you say the bit is a counter with 2 values.

>  This is the question the versioning document seems to be looking at  
> in trying to decide how big the sequence number needs to be.  But I  
> find the reasoning misleading.  Either there is active  
> communication, or there isn't.  If there isn't, then timeouts on the  
> mapping itself will prompt new

Assuming time-outs are short.

The default we have in the implementation right now is 24 hours.

> queries.  And, the rate that matters is how often changes take  
> place.  As long as the product of the rate-of-change and the  
> supported idle-time for simplified detection, is less than the wrap,  
> then we are fine. SO I suspect that if we want to go with a sequence  
> number type behavior, we probably need more than 1 bit, but fewer  
> than 16 (I end up at 8 myself.)

Good assertion and conclusion Joel. Agree.

> However, I think the question of how many bits to use is secondary  
> to the question of which conceptual mechanism we want to have.

Right.

> (Side note: A flapping xTR should be rapidly taken out of service.   
> O&M problem, not a base protocol issue.)

Right, agree.

Dino

>
>
> Yours,
> Joel
>
> Dino Farinacci wrote:
>>> - each mapping has a version number and any change in the mapping  
>>> causes
>>> a change of version number. The ITR places in the header of data
>>> encapsulated packets the version number of its mapping and the  
>>> version
>>> number of the mapping of the destination prefix that it knows. By
>>> looking at the version number found in the received data  
>>> encapsulated
>>> packets, it can check whether the mapping has changed and send a
>>> Map-Request if a change has been detected to retrieve the new  
>>> mapping
>> I plan to reply to Luigi's email but have a quick reply for this  
>> point.
>> If the version numbers are used to simply identify a change and  
>> prompt a Map-Request, then why can't a single bit convey the same  
>> thing?
>> The fact that version numbers exist would convey that multiple  
>> mapping versions are allowed to exist. I am pretty sure that is not  
>> a good idea and creates other complexities. With a single bit, you  
>> indicate that the latest state is what is important to cache rather  
>> than dealing with intermediate states.
>> Dino
>> _______________________________________________
>> lisp mailing list
>> lisp@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lisp
> _______________________________________________
> lisp mailing list
> lisp@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lisp


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Dino,

I will take up Sam's suggestion to comment to the new LISP
text in a different message, but will address your comments
below first:

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dino Farinacci [mailto:dino@cisco.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 8:44 AM
> To: Templin, Fred L
> Cc: lisp@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [lisp] Path MTU concerns and proposed resolutions
>=20
> Let me add to Sam's reply.
>=20
> > I'd like to try to summarize the MTU concerns as follows:
> >
> > 1. Insertion of an outer IP header at the ITR reduces the
> >   effective MTU on the path to the ETR.
>=20
> Correct. The case for all tunneling protocols.

Right.
=20
> > 2. The IPv4 IP_ID field is only 16bits (too small to safely
> >   support sustained fragmentation at high data rates).
>=20
> You can use different source RLOCs if this would ever be a problem.

The idea I am suggesting is to allow a little bit of
fragmentation initially, but tune it out as quickly as
possible. That way, there is no concern for undetected
reassembly errors (RFC4963) nor burning additional RLOCs.

> > 3. Fragmentation in routers performed in slow path
>=20
> Not true.

That's good to know, but its not really relevant to the
LISP discussion - it was merely intended as a general
comment that I will omit from future discussions.

> > 4. Overhead for reassembly in ETRs is too onerous in some
> >   scenarios
>=20
> Nothing in the LISP spec says the ETR reassembles fragments.

I'm now coming to know that you are looking for LISP xTRs
in a variety of deployment scenarios and not just in the
case of global Internet DFZ routers. Whether an ETR would
be asked to reassemble or not has a great deal to do with
the specific deployment scenario. That is why I have
specified SEAL-lite, which asks only that the ETR report
fragmentation and not that it perform reassembly.=20
=20
> > 5. Outer ICMP messages from routers on the path to the ETR may
> >   be lost and/or not contain enough information for translation
> >   into inner ICMP messages to send back to the original source
>=20
> See the spec how we solved this for IPv4 traceroute. The same problem
> exists there. Using the UDP source port you can find the originating
> source, if you wanted to propagate the ICMP Too Big message back to
> the source *at the time the ICMP Too Big was received by the ITR*. The

Presumably, traceroutes will not be flowing at line rate
and off-path attackers would have little to gain by trying
to disrupt a traceroute nor would they have a way of
guessing that a traceroute is in progress. So, the spec's
suggestion of having the ITR cache traceroute headers is
plausible *for that particular application only*.

For line rate data plane transmissions, however, having
the ITR cache the headers of all of the packets would be
intractable in terms of storage and processing overhead.
The ITR would also have only the 16 bits of the UDP source
port such that a relatively low data rate stream of spoofed
ICMPs from an off-path attacker could guess correctly and
expose a DOS vector. Finally, how could the ITR know when
it is OK to discard the cached headers? This is not a
problem for SEAL, as there is no header caching required.=20

> stateful solution in the LISP spec says, you cache the effective MTU
> in the map-cache entry and the next packet sent by the source to this
> ITR will result in a ICMP Too Big message sent to the source. A much
> better solution IMO.

There is nothing novel nor surprising about asking the
ITR to cache per-ETR MTUs and drop packets that are too
big instead of allowing them into the tunnel - that's
just the way path MTU discovery is intended to work. I
have been saying this for years, and many others have
been saying it for many years before that. This is also
how SEAL works, and also how tunneling standards like
RFC4213 work.

> > 6. Outer ICMP messages from routers on the path may be
> >   insufficiently provisioned to allow for authentication
>=20
> This comment needs to be stated more specifically. Please restate. Any
> datagram protocol will have a difficult time being authenticated. You
> need lots of state and several packet exchanges. The Internet has
> survived quite well without it.

Authentication is a loaded word and was not intended in
the sense of, e.g. setting up security associations,
inserting an AH header, etc.

What I was meaning to say was (sic) "outer ICMP messages
from routers on the path may be insufficiently provisioned
to provide an adequate nonce".

> > 7. since the ITR is an in-the-network tunnel, hitting an MTU
> >   restriction in the path to the ETR results in a flood of
> >   ICMP Packet Too Big (PTB) messages coming from the network
> >   and bombarding the ITR
>=20
> ICMP Too Big messages could bombard any system today (without LISP).
> It does not happen for these reasons:
>=20
> (1) ICMP Too Big messages are rate-limited by all popular router
> implementations.

That may well be true, but it could lead to some hosts not
receiving timely MTU feedback. Having an xTR in front of
the hosts could lend to more timely MTU feedback.=20

> (2) ICMP Too Big messages are turned off in core routers.

Then how is the ITR going to discover larger MTUs if large
packets are dropped silently by routers in the path from
the ITR to the ETR? Also, I don't find it acceptable for
the ITR to set a too-small upper bound on the tunnel MTU
if there are paths to some ETRs that could have accepted
a larger MTU.

Using SEAL, the ITR can set a large upper bound tunnel
MTU and allow the correct MTU for each ITR->ETR path to
be discovered.

> (3) ICMP Too Big messages are filtered at site boundaries so an ITR
> may never see one.

That is one good reason why the MTU feedback should
be conveyed in tunnel protocol-specific error messages
and not ICMPs.=20

> > About proposed resolutions, the key idea is for the ITR to
> > only accept PTB feedback coming from ETRs and not accept it
> > from "anonymous" middleboxes. This feedback will get through
> > in instances where "vanilla" ICMP feedback might not, since
> > the feedback is sent in the control plane which may not
> > necessarily share the same channel as the data plane.
> >
> > Comments?
>=20
> How could you expect an xTR at Google/Yahoo/MSN to support such
> control load? We have shown that locator reachability can't scale with
> probing. The same situation arises here too.

I didn't get that - what control load are you referring to?

Fred
fred.l.templin@boeing.com

> Dino
>=20
> >
> >
> > Fred
> > fred.l.templin@boeing.com
> > _______________________________________________
> > lisp mailing list
> > lisp@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lisp


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From: "Templin, Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>
To: "Eliot Lear" <lear@cisco.com>, "Dino Farinacci" <dino@cisco.com>
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Eliot,

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Eliot Lear [mailto:lear@cisco.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 8:52 AM
> To: Dino Farinacci
> Cc: Templin, Fred L; lisp@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [lisp] Path MTU concerns and proposed resolutions
>=20
> On 6/3/09 5:44 PM, Dino Farinacci wrote:
> >> 3. Fragmentation in routers performed in slow path
> >
> > Not true.
>=20
> I'd like to go further and say that it shouldn't matter whether it
(for
> many values of "it") is done in the slow path or fast path TODAY.  It
> CAN be done in the fast path if it is important to do there.

That is fine, and fast path would certainly be nice
in any case. I won't mention this from now on.

Fred
fred.l.templin@boeing.com

>=20
> Eliot
> _______________________________________________
> lisp mailing list
> lisp@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lisp

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Joel,

> With one bit of state, in the event of even a single packet loss there
> is ambiguity about what the bit means.  (If the sender sets the bit on
> only one packet, and that packet gets lost, the bit has gotten lost.
> Conversely, if the sender sets the bit on a sequence of packets, then
> the receiver has to figure out whether the successive indications are
> for the same change or different changes.

I agree

> One could, of course, treat the single bit as a two-state wrapping
> counter.  That would address the problem above.  However, if there are
> two successive changes, that would look like no change at all.  This is
> the question the versioning document seems to be looking at in trying to
> decide how big the sequence number needs to be.  But I find the
> reasoning misleading.  Either there is active communication, or there
> isn't.  If there isn't, then timeouts on the mapping itself will prompt
> new queries.  And, the rate that matters is how often changes take
> place.  As long as the product of the rate-of-change and the supported
> idle-time for simplified detection, is less than the wrap, then we are
> fine. SO I suspect that if we want to go with a sequence number type
> behavior, we probably need more than 1 bit, but fewer than 16 (I end up
> at 8 myself.)

8 bits could be sufficient, but as you explained above I don't think
that one bit would be enough.

> However, I think the question of how many bits to use is secondary to
> the question of which conceptual mechanism we want to have.

Completely agree

> (Side note: A flapping xTR should be rapidly taken out of service.  O&M
> problem, not a base protocol issue.)

In an ideal network yes, but in practice in some parts of the network a
flapping link is better than no link at all. Measurements show that
flapping links are unfortunately frequent in IP networks, see e.g. :
http://www.ieee-infocom.org/2004/Papers/48_1.PDF
http://inl.info.ucl.ac.be/publications/achieving-sub-50-milliseconds-recover


Olivier





-- 
http://inl.info.ucl.ac.be , UCLouvain, Belgium

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From: "Templin, Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>
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I thought I should mention that there is now a new version
of SEAL called "SEAL-lite". It differs from classical SEAL
in that the ETR never has to reassemble and the ITR never
has to fragment.

SEAL-lite is distinguished from classical SEAL by a
version number in the SEAL header. Both SEAL-lite and
classical SEAL are specified in the same document.
The document can be found here:

http://osprey67.com/seal/draft-templin-seal-24.txt

Fred
fred.l.templin@boeing.com

From hartmans@mit.edu  Wed Jun  3 14:32:18 2009
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From: Sam Hartman <hartmans-ietf@mit.edu>
Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2009 17:32:15 -0400
In-Reply-To: <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A10603D172@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> (Fred L. Templin's message of "Wed\, 3 Jun 2009 13\:53\:56 -0700")
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>>>>> "Fred" == Templin, Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> writes:

    Fred> I thought I should mention that there is now a new version
    Fred> of SEAL called "SEAL-lite". It differs from classical SEAL
    Fred> in that the ETR never has to reassemble and the ITR never
    Fred> has to fragment.

Fred, discussions of SEAL are off-topic for the LISP list.  We're
designing the LISP protocol here.

I appreciate that you believe that LISP has MTU handling issues that
SEAL does not.

You are welcome to contribute to the LISP effort.  The best way to do
that is to respond to my open message to you, showing how the generic
MTU handling concerns apply to LISP.  If we get consensus on that,
working on a solution would be great.

If elements of the solution you propose are drawn from SEAL, that
would be fine.  Obviously, if we adopt any such elements into LISP, we
would acknowledge both your contributions and the SEAL spec.

Meanwhile, please keep a tighter focus on how what you contribute
relates to LISP.

Sam Hartman
for the LISP chairs

From Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com  Wed Jun  3 14:38:28 2009
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From: "Templin, Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>
To: "Sam Hartman" <hartmans-ietf@mit.edu>
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Acknowledged.

Fred

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sam Hartman [mailto:hartmans-ietf@mit.edu]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 2:32 PM
> To: Templin, Fred L
> Cc: lisp@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [lisp] SEAL-lite
>=20
> >>>>> "Fred" =3D=3D Templin, Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> =
writes:
>=20
>     Fred> I thought I should mention that there is now a new version
>     Fred> of SEAL called "SEAL-lite". It differs from classical SEAL
>     Fred> in that the ETR never has to reassemble and the ITR never
>     Fred> has to fragment.
>=20
> Fred, discussions of SEAL are off-topic for the LISP list.  We're
> designing the LISP protocol here.
>=20
> I appreciate that you believe that LISP has MTU handling issues that
> SEAL does not.
>=20
> You are welcome to contribute to the LISP effort.  The best way to do
> that is to respond to my open message to you, showing how the generic
> MTU handling concerns apply to LISP.  If we get consensus on that,
> working on a solution would be great.
>=20
> If elements of the solution you propose are drawn from SEAL, that
> would be fine.  Obviously, if we adopt any such elements into LISP, we
> would acknowledge both your contributions and the SEAL spec.
>=20
> Meanwhile, please keep a tighter focus on how what you contribute
> relates to LISP.
>=20
> Sam Hartman
> for the LISP chairs

From Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com  Wed Jun  3 15:39:33 2009
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From: "Templin, Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>
To: "Sam Hartman" <hartmans-ietf@mit.edu>
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Hi Sam,

Getting back on track now, I took a look at [LISP],
Section 5.4 and am now coming to a useful conclusion.
If we can somehow enlist *only* the ETR in reporting
packet size overflows (i.e., and not accept any ICMPs
from intermediate routers) then there need not be a
stateful mechanism since a stateless mechanism would
suffice.

Let's say that the ETR can be on the lookout for any
packets that arrive in fragments rather than whole
packets. As long as the ETR is diligent in reporting
enough of the packet fragment back to the ITR, the ITR
would have enough information to statelessly translate
it into an ICMP PTB to return to the original source.

So, [LISP] section 5.4.2 can be omitted, and Section
5.4.1 can be rewritten to allow for L to be as large
as the MTU of the interface over which the ITR->ETR
tunnel is configured. Section 5.4.1 would also specify
that the ETR must report fragmentation, and that the
ITR must translate the fragmentation reports into ICMP
PTB messages to return to the original source.

Below is a proposed rewrite of [LISP], Section 5.4.1;
please send comments.

Fred
fred.l.templin@boeing.com

--- begin ---
5.4.1.  A Stateless Solution to MTU Handling

   An ITR stateless solution to handle MTU issues is described as
   follows:

   1.  Define an architectural constant S for the maximum size of a
       packet, in bytes, an ITR would receive from a source inside of
       its site.

   2.  Define L to be the maximum size, in bytes, a packet of size S
       would be after the ITR prepends the LISP header, UDP header, and
       outer network layer header of size H.

   3.  Calculate: S + H =3D L.

   When an ITR receives a packet from a site-facing interface and adds H
   bytes worth of encapsulation to yield a packet size of L bytes, it
   resolves the MTU issue by first splitting the original packet into
   fragments, where the first fragment is (1500 - H) bytes and the
   other fragments are no larger than the first fragment.  A LISP header
   is then prepended to each fragment.  This will ensure that the new,
   encapsulated packets are no larger than 1500, which is highly
   unlikely to be above the effective tunnel MTU.

   When an ETR receives encapsulated inner IP fragments, it treats them
   as individually encapsulated packets.  It strips the LISP headers
then
   forwards each fragment to the destination host of the destination
   site.  The fragments are reassembled at the destination host into the
   single IP datagram that was originated by the source host.

   This behavior is performed by the ITR when the source host originates
   a packet with the DF field of the IP header is set to 0.  When the DF
   field of the IP header is set to 1, or the packet is an IPv6 packet
   originated by the source host, the ITR will drop the packet when the
   size is greater than L, and sends an ICMP Too Big message to the
   source with a value of S, where S is (L - H).

   When the outer header encapsulation uses an IPv4 header the ITR
   sets the DF bit to 0. After sending the packet, the ITR may receive
   a Fragmentation Report that contains enough of the first fragment of
   a LISP packet that experienced outer IPv4 fragmentation such that
   the LISP nonce is available and the text of the first-fragment can
   be used for translation into an ICMP Packet Too Big (PTB) message.
   The ITR then generates the ICMP PTB message and returns it to the
   original source.

   When an ETR receives a LISP packet that arrives as multiple outer
   IPv4 fragments, it discards the non-first-fragments and uses the
   first-fragment to generate a Fragmentation Report that it returns
   to the ITR. The ETR must include in the Fragmentation Report enough
   of the first-fragment such that the ITR can verify the nonce and
   translate the report into an ICMP PTB.

   This specification recommends that L be defined as the MTU of
   the interface over which the ITR->ETR tunnel is configured.
--- end ---

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sam Hartman [mailto:hartmans-ietf@mit.edu]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 8:30 AM
> To: Templin, Fred L
> Cc: lisp@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [lisp] Path MTU concerns and proposed resolutions
>=20
> >>>>> "Templin," =3D=3D Templin, Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>
writes:
>=20
>     Templin,> Comments?
>=20
> Fred, thanks for your message.  I think that you've written down some
> of the generic concerns with PMTU issues you might run into when you
> introduce a tunnel into the network.  Now, you need to focus these
> concerns on LISP.  First, Dino claims he made changes in 01 that
> attempt to solve your PMTU issues.
> I'd appreciate it if you could review lisp-01's discussions of MTU and
then focus the discussion as
> it applies to LISP.
>=20
> In particular, the draft presents arguments about why LISP packets are
> unlikely to run into situations where the MTU is reduced.
> How does that argument affect your concerns?
>=20
> Also, the draft presents both a stateful and stateless mechanism for
> handling PMTU concerns.  To what extent do the issues that you bring
up apply in each of these cases?
>=20
> --Sam
> _______________________________________________
> lisp mailing list
> lisp@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lisp

From Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com  Wed Jun  3 15:46:46 2009
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From: "Templin, Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>
To: <lisp@ietf.org>
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Jun 2009 22:46:42.0878 (UTC) FILETIME=[2A612DE0:01C9E49D]
Subject: Re: [lisp] SEAL-lite
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> http://osprey67.com/seal/draft-templin-seal-24.txt

FYI, just so that no one is surprised I took the link
down until we can get discussion back on track.

Thanks - Fred
fred.l.templin@boeing.com

From Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com  Wed Jun  3 17:22:20 2009
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Thread-Topic: [lisp] Path MTU concerns and proposed resolutions
Thread-Index: AcnkYC25fT80v3aXToaV96HRwLlF1AANQStQAAPy+vA=
References: <tsleiu3exaj.fsf@mit.edu><4A2404D0.9080406@joelhalpern.com><4A240834.7000106@uclouvain.be><tslws7vdgb2.fsf@mit.edu><4A87C591-F5C3-4180-8FBB-D71E65F00145@net.t-labs.tu-berlin.de><tslk53u8zsu.fsf@mit.edu><4A25846F.4030408@uclouvain.be><39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105FF997C@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com><tslfxeh72ts.fsf@mit.edu> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A10603D265@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com>
From: "Templin, Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>
To: "Sam Hartman" <hartmans-ietf@mit.edu>
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Jun 2009 00:22:16.0613 (UTC) FILETIME=[83F3B550:01C9E4AA]
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Subject: Re: [lisp] Path MTU concerns and proposed resolutions
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Sam,

Beg pardon, but the initial cut at this was not well
aligned with recursive tunneling. Here is another cut
that takes recursion into account:

Fred
fred.l.templin@boeing.com

--- begin ---
5.4.1.  A Stateless Solution to MTU Handling

   An ITR stateless solution to handle MTU issues is described as
   follows:

   1.  Define an architectural constant S for the maximum size of a
       packet, in bytes, an ITR would receive from a source inside of
       its site.

   2.  Define L to be the maximum size, in bytes, a packet of size S
       would be after the ITR prepends the LISP header, UDP header, and
       outer network layer header of size H.

   3.  Calculate: S + H =3D L.

   When an ITR receives a packet from a site-facing interface and adds H
   bytes worth of encapsulation to yield a packet size of L bytes, it
   resolves the MTU issue by first splitting the original packet into
   fragments, where the first fragment is 1280 bytes and the other
   fragments are no larger than the first fragment.  A LISP header
   is then prepended to each fragment.  This will ensure that the new,
   encapsulated packets are no larger than (1280 + H), which is highly
   unlikely to be above the effective tunnel MTU.

   When an ETR receives encapsulated inner IP fragments, it treats
   them as individually encapsulated packets.  It strips the LISP
   headers then forwards each fragment to the destination host of the
   destination site.  The fragments are reassembled at the destination
   host into the single IP datagram that was originated by the source
   host.

   This behavior is performed by the ITR when the source host originates
   a packet with the DF field of the IP header set to 0. (If the source
   host included an inner LISP header in the packet, this behavior is
   only performed if the Report Fragmentation (RF) field of the inner
   LISP header is set to 0.)  When the DF field of the IP header is set
   to 1, the RF field of the inner LISP header (if present) is set to 1,
   or the packet is an IPv6 packet originated by the source host, the
   ITR will drop the packet when the size is greater than L, and send
   an ICMP Packet Too Big (PTB) message to the source with a value of
   S, where S is (L - H). If the original source was itself a LISP ITR,
   ITR instead sends a LISP Fragmentation Report message (see below).

   When the outer LISP encapsulation uses an IPv4 header the ITR sets
   the DF bit to 0 and sets the RF bit in the outer LISP header to the
   same value that was set in the inner LISP header (if present). If
   no inner LISP header is present, the ITR instead sets the RF bit
   in the outer LISP header to 1 if the DF bit of the inner IP packet
   is set to 1, or if the inner packet is an IPv6 packet.

   After sending the packet, the ITR may receive a LISP Fragmentation
   Report message that contains enough of the first fragment of a LISP
   packet that experienced outer IPv4 fragmentation such that the LISP
   nonce is available and the text of the first-fragment can be used
   for translation into an ICMP PTB message. If the original source was
   itself a LISP ITR, ITR instead translates the Fragmentation Report
   into a Fragmentation Report that the source ITR can interpret.

   When an ETR receives a LISP packet that arrives as multiple outer
   IPv4 fragments, it discards the non-first-fragments. If the RF bit
   is set in the outer LISP header, the ETR then uses the first
   fragment to generate a Fragmentation Report that it returns to
   the ITR. The ETR must include in the Fragmentation Report enough
   of the first-fragment such that the ITR can verify the nonce and
   translate the report into a PTB to send to the original source.

   This specification recommends that L be defined as the MTU of
   the interface over which the ITR->ETR tunnel is configured.
--- end ---

From luigi@net.t-labs.tu-berlin.de  Thu Jun  4 00:58:28 2009
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Subject: Re: [lisp] Map-Versioning
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On Jun 3, 2009, at 18:44 , Dino Farinacci wrote:

>> With one bit of state, in the event of even a single packet loss  
>> there is ambiguity about what the bit means.  (If the sender sets  
>> the bit on only one packet, and that packet gets lost, the bit has  
>> gotten
>
> I said 1 bit. And didn't not mean that 1 packet is sent. The bit can  
> stay set in a small packet train of  packets. It works like this:
>
> (1) Site A has a mapping database change.
> (2) Site A is currently talking to Site B.
> (3) Site A wants to update B's map-cache for itself.
> (4) Site A sets the SMR bit in a sequence of packets to Site B.

As far as I understand, at this point you need to keep track of the  
fact that B has asked for new mapping in order to reset the SMR bit.
With versioning you do not need this. You just put a new version  
number, B will understand that has to send a map-request and no  
further actions are needed from A.

Let me add something. What happens in the presence of Map-resolver  
that cache the entries? (as proposed in the lisp-ms-01 draft)

If you include the version number in the Map-Request, when the Map- 
resolver receive the packet it will easily understand that it needs as  
well to refresh its cache because a new mapping is available, thus it  
will forward the packet to the xTR.
How to do the same with the SMR bit?
I do not think that keeping trace of all the Map-resolvers that cached  
the mapping is a feasible way.



> For other map-cache entries where the LRU is small, it *does not set  
> the SMR-bit* for those sites.
> (5) The packet with the SMR-bit set has nonce value <foobar>.
> (6) Site B sees the SMR-bit when decapsulating data and tells  
> control plane to send a Map-Request with the same nonce value  
> <foobar>.
> (7) Site A returns a Map-Reply with nonce value <foobar>.
> (8) Site B is updated.
>
> A 3 packet exchange where the first packet traversal piggybacks on  
> data. The Site A ITR can control the number of places it receives  
> Map-Requests by deciding which map-cache entries to SMR.

If you really want you can do the same with versioning.

>
>
>> lost. Conversely, if the sender sets the bit on a sequence of  
>> packets, then the receiver has to figure out whether the successive  
>> indications are for the same change or different changes.
>
> Understand. But a new nonce value from Site A can tell Site B to  
> rerequest.

What if we call this new nonce a version number? ;-)

> That is only going to happen if the changes are on the order of  
> milliseconds. That is, within the trip-delay of the 3 packet exchange.
>
>> One could, of course, treat the single bit as a two-state wrapping  
>> counter.  That would address the problem above.  However, if there  
>> are two successive changes, that would look like no change at all.
>
> Interesting. So you say the bit is a counter with 2 values.
>
>> This is the question the versioning document seems to be looking at  
>> in trying to decide how big the sequence number needs to be.  But I  
>> find the reasoning misleading.  Either there is active  
>> communication, or there isn't.  If there isn't, then timeouts on  
>> the mapping itself will prompt new
>
> Assuming time-outs are short.
>
> The default we have in the implementation right now is 24 hours.

Just for clarity. With versioning there is no change in the timeouts.

>
>
>> queries.  And, the rate that matters is how often changes take  
>> place.  As long as the product of the rate-of-change and the  
>> supported idle-time for simplified detection, is less than the  
>> wrap, then we are fine.

This is exactly what we were trying to argue in the draft.

>> SO I suspect that if we want to go with a sequence number type  
>> behavior, we probably need more than 1 bit, but fewer than 16 (I  
>> end up at 8 myself.)
>
> Good assertion and conclusion Joel. Agree.
>
>> However, I think the question of how many bits to use is secondary  
>> to the question of which conceptual mechanism we want to have.
>
> Right.

Agree

Luigi


>
>
>> (Side note: A flapping xTR should be rapidly taken out of service.   
>> O&M problem, not a base protocol issue.)
>
> Right, agree.
>
> Dino
>
>>
>>
>> Yours,
>> Joel
>>
>> Dino Farinacci wrote:
>>>> - each mapping has a version number and any change in the mapping  
>>>> causes
>>>> a change of version number. The ITR places in the header of data
>>>> encapsulated packets the version number of its mapping and the  
>>>> version
>>>> number of the mapping of the destination prefix that it knows. By
>>>> looking at the version number found in the received data  
>>>> encapsulated
>>>> packets, it can check whether the mapping has changed and send a
>>>> Map-Request if a change has been detected to retrieve the new  
>>>> mapping
>>> I plan to reply to Luigi's email but have a quick reply for this  
>>> point.
>>> If the version numbers are used to simply identify a change and  
>>> prompt a Map-Request, then why can't a single bit convey the same  
>>> thing?
>>> The fact that version numbers exist would convey that multiple  
>>> mapping versions are allowed to exist. I am pretty sure that is  
>>> not a good idea and creates other complexities. With a single bit,  
>>> you indicate that the latest state is what is important to cache  
>>> rather than dealing with intermediate states.
>>> Dino
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> lisp mailing list
>>> lisp@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lisp
>> _______________________________________________
>> lisp mailing list
>> lisp@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lisp
>
> _______________________________________________
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Subject: Re: [lisp] Map-Versioning
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On Jun 3, 2009, at 18:08 , Dino Farinacci wrote:

>> - each mapping has a version number and any change in the mapping  
>> causes
>> a change of version number. The ITR places in the header of data
>> encapsulated packets the version number of its mapping and the  
>> version
>> number of the mapping of the destination prefix that it knows. By
>> looking at the version number found in the received data encapsulated
>> packets, it can check whether the mapping has changed and send a
>> Map-Request if a change has been detected to retrieve the new mapping
>
> I plan to reply to Luigi's email but have a quick reply for this  
> point.
>
> If the version numbers are used to simply identify a change and  
> prompt a Map-Request, then why can't a single bit convey the same  
> thing?

Because a single bit doesn't tell you if the change is new compared to  
the actual mapping you have or is a duplicate of you last update.

Assume you receive a packet from X with the SMR bit set, you send a  
Map-Request, then you receive another packet from X with the SMR bit  
set, is this another change? or just the same like the first packet?

You can answer that you have rate limitation and you will ignore SMR  
bit from X for a certain time. Unless this time is very large (which  
is not a good in the case your Map-request is lost) you have no  
guarantee of not receiving a packet with the SMR bit set actually  
referring to the same mapping.

With versioning this ambiguity does not exist anymore.

Luigi



>
>
> The fact that version numbers exist would convey that multiple  
> mapping versions are allowed to exist. I am pretty sure that is not  
> a good idea and creates other complexities. With a single bit, you  
> indicate that the latest state is what is important to cache rather  
> than dealing with intermediate states.
>
> Dino
>
> _______________________________________________
> lisp mailing list
> lisp@ietf.org
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From Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com  Thu Jun  4 10:20:42 2009
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Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 10:19:40 -0700
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Thread-Topic: [lisp] Path MTU concerns and proposed resolutions
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References: <tsleiu3exaj.fsf@mit.edu><4A2404D0.9080406@joelhalpern.com><4A240834.7000106@uclouvain.be><tslws7vdgb2.fsf@mit.edu><4A87C591-F5C3-4180-8FBB-D71E65F00145@net.t-labs.tu-berlin.de><tslk53u8zsu.fsf@mit.edu><4A25846F.4030408@uclouvain.be><39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105FF997C@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com><tslfxeh72ts.fsf@mit.edu><39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A10603D265@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A10603D2D8@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com>
From: "Templin, Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>
To: "Sam Hartman" <hartmans-ietf@mit.edu>
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Subject: Re: [lisp] Path MTU concerns and proposed resolutions
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Here again is another update - this I think being close
to the final. This version is more adept at handling
recursion, and also accounts for pesky routers that
cause the first fragment to be the smallest when doing
IPv4 fragmentation (albeit with some state required).

Fred
fred.l.templin@boeing.com

--- begin ---
5.4.1.  MTU Handling

   An ITR solution to handle MTU issues is described as follows:


   1.  Define M to be the minimum of the MTU of the underlying
       interface over which the ITR->ETR tunnel is configured and
       the path MTU across the tunnel (if known).

   2.  Define an architectural constant S for the maximum size of a
       packet, in bytes, an ITR would receive from a source inside of
       its site and admit into the tunnel without first performing
       fragmentation (if the packet is allowed to be fragmented).

   3.  Define L to be the maximum size, in bytes, a packet of size S
       would be after the ITR prepends the LISP header, UDP header, and
       outer network layer header of size H.

   4.  Calculate: S + H =3D L.

   This specification recommends that L be defined as 1500.

   When an ITR receives a packet from a site-facing interface and adds H
   bytes worth of encapsulation to yield a packet size that is larger
   than L bytes, it resolves the MTU issue by first splitting the
   original packet into fragments. The first fragment must be the
   minimum of 1280 and (M - H) bytes, and the other fragments must be no
   larger than the first fragment. A LISP header is then prepended to
   each fragment.  This will ensure that the new, encapsulated packets
   are unlikely to be above the effective tunnel MTU.

   When an ETR receives encapsulated IP fragments, it treats them as
   individually encapsulated packets.  It strips the LISP headers then
   forwards each fragment to the destination host of the destination
   site.  The fragments are reassembled at the destination host into
   the single IP datagram that was originated by the source host.

   This behavior is performed by the ITR when the source host originates
   a non-LISP packet with the DF field of the IP header set to 0, or a
   LISP packet with the RF field of the LISP header set to 0. For all
   other packets, the ITR will encapsulate the packet and admit it into
   the tunnel if it is no larger than (M - H) bytes. Otherwise, it will
   drop the packet and return a Too Big message (i.e., an ICMP Packet
   Too Big message for non-LISP packets or a LISP Fragmentation Report
   for LISP packets). The message must contain as much of the invoking
   packet as possible without the entire message exceeding the minimum
   MTU (i.e., 576 bytes for IPv4 and 1280 bytes for IPv6).

   When the LISP encapsulation uses an IPv4 header the ITR sets the DF
   bit to 0. If the original packet was itself a LISP packet, the ITR
   sets the RF bit in the encapsulating LISP header to the same value
   that was set in the original LISP header. If the DF bit of the IP
   packet is set to 1, or if the packet is an IPv6 packet, the ITR
   sets the RF bit in the encapsulating LISP header to 1. In all other
   cases, the ITR sets the RF bit to 0.

   After sending the packet, the ITR may receive a LISP Fragmentation
   Report message. If the message contains enough of the packet-in-error
   and a reasonable MTU value (i.e., one no smaller than 576 bytes for
   IPv4 or 1280 bytes for IPv6), the ITR translates it into a Too Big
   message and returns it to the original source. Otherwise, the ITR
   uses a plateau table (e.g., as described in RFC1191) to cache a value
   for M which it iteratively decreases based on subsequent Too Bigs
   until no further Fragmentation Reports are received.

   When an ETR receives a fragmented LISP packet (i.e., one where the
   encapsulated packet experiences fragmentation on the path from the
   ITR), it either reassembles or discards the packet according to its
   configuration. If the RF bit is set to 1 in the outer LISP header,
   the ETR also generates a Fragmentation Report message that it returns
   to the ITR. The message must contain as much of the first-fragment as
   possible without the entire message exceeding the minimum MTU (i.e.,
   576 bytes for IPv4 and 1280 bytes for IPv6).
--- end ---

From menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de  Fri Jun  5 03:29:23 2009
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From: Michael Menth <menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de>
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References: <tsleiu3exaj.fsf@mit.edu><4A2404D0.9080406@joelhalpern.com><4A240834.7000106@uclouvain.be><tslws7vdgb2.fsf@mit.edu><4A87C591-F5C3-4180-8FBB-D71E65F00145@net.t-labs.tu-berlin.de><tslk53u8zsu.fsf@mit.edu><4A25846F.4030408@uclouvain.be><39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105FF997C@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com><tslfxeh72ts.fsf@mit.edu><39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A10603D265@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com>	<39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A10603D2D8@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A10603D5B2@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com>
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Subject: [lisp] Question regarding LISP+ALT
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Hi,

I have a question regarding LISP+ALT. What information do ETRs respond 
to a map request?
* only one RLOC for the requested EID (the RLOC of the ETR that received 
the request)?
* all RLOCs for the requested EID?
If it's the latter, how does the ETR know about the other RLOCs?
By configuration through the network administrator of the user organization?
If so, does that imply that the ETR is under control of the user 
organization and part of its network?

Regards,

    Michael

-- 
Dr. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor
University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science
Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206
phone: (+49)-931/31-86644 (new), fax: (+49)-931/8888-6632
mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de
http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn


From dmm@1-4-5.net  Fri Jun  5 05:53:49 2009
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Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 05:53:51 -0700
From: David Meyer <dmm@1-4-5.net>
To: Michael Menth <menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de>
Message-ID: <20090605125351.GA27776@1-4-5.net>
References: <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A10603D2D8@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A10603D5B2@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <4A28F37D.50407@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de>
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Subject: Re: [lisp] Question regarding LISP+ALT
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On Fri, Jun 05, 2009 at 12:29:17PM +0200, Michael Menth wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I have a question regarding LISP+ALT. What information do ETRs respond =
=20
> to a map request?
> * only one RLOC for the requested EID (the RLOC of the ETR that received =
=20
> the request)?
> * all RLOCs for the requested EID?

	Typically, the Map-Reply will contain all of the RLOCs
	for the site.=20

> If it's the latter, how does the ETR know about the other RLOCs?
> By configuration through the network administrator of the user organizati=
on?
> If so, does that imply that the ETR is under control of the user =20
> organization and part of its network?

	Yes, in the case where LISP is fielded in the site's
	CPE. One could also imagine a managed service
	where the SP provides and manages the site's CPE(s).=20

	In any event, deploying LISP in CPE-type boxes is
	expected to be a comon scenaro for LISP.

	Dave


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Subject: Re: [lisp] Question regarding LISP+ALT
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Hi Dave,

is it important that the ETRs are the leaves of the ALT and respond to 
map requests? Or could also a different entitiy of the user organization 
do the same work provided it is reachable via an RLOC and has the 
knowledge about all the RLOCs for this edge network?

I'd like to understand the motivation for the design with the ETRs as 
leave nodes. Is ease of deployment (Every LISP edge network has an ETR 
which has an RLOC, so let the ETR answer the requests!) the only reason? 
Or is there also another reason that I do not see?

Regards,

    Michael




David Meyer schrieb:
> On Fri, Jun 05, 2009 at 12:29:17PM +0200, Michael Menth wrote:
>   
>> Hi,
>>
>> I have a question regarding LISP+ALT. What information do ETRs respond  
>> to a map request?
>> * only one RLOC for the requested EID (the RLOC of the ETR that received  
>> the request)?
>> * all RLOCs for the requested EID?
>>     
>
> 	Typically, the Map-Reply will contain all of the RLOCs
> 	for the site. 
>
>   
>> If it's the latter, how does the ETR know about the other RLOCs?
>> By configuration through the network administrator of the user organization?
>> If so, does that imply that the ETR is under control of the user  
>> organization and part of its network?
>>     
>
> 	Yes, in the case where LISP is fielded in the site's
> 	CPE. One could also imagine a managed service
> 	where the SP provides and manages the site's CPE(s). 
>
> 	In any event, deploying LISP in CPE-type boxes is
> 	expected to be a comon scenaro for LISP.
>
> 	Dave
>
>   

-- 
Dr. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor
University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science
Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206
phone: (+49)-931/31-86644 (new), fax: (+49)-931/8888-6632
mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de
http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn


From dmm@1-4-5.net  Fri Jun  5 07:15:28 2009
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Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 07:15:30 -0700
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To: Michael Menth <menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de>
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Subject: Re: [lisp] Question regarding LISP+ALT
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	Hey Michael,

> is it important that the ETRs are the leaves of the ALT and respond to =
=20
> map requests? Or could also a different entitiy of the user organization =
=20
> do the same work provided it is reachable via an RLOC and has the =20
> knowledge about all the RLOCs for this edge network?

	As long as there is a way for the Map-Request to find its
	way to whomever is authoritative for the mapping data, that
	entity *could* respond to the map-request. Note however
	that the ETR still needs to have a way of knowing that it
	should decap packets for the destined to EID space behind
	it, so you'd need to be able to provide that information
	to the ETRs in any event.

> I'd like to understand the motivation for the design with the ETRs as =20
> leave nodes. Is ease of deployment (Every LISP edge network has an ETR =
=20
> which has an RLOC, so let the ETR answer the requests!) the only reason? =
=20
> Or is there also another reason that I do not see?

	There are a few reasons, including:

	(i).	The site is authoritative for its ingress policy

		We want the site to be authoritative for
		its ingress policy. The natural place to do=20
		this is at the site's ETRs.

	(ii).	ETRs need to understand what their EID space is anyway

		Since the ETRs need to be configured to
		understand what their EID space is anyway (so
		they can decap packets and send them on to their
		destinations), they know the EID-to-RLOC mapping
		and so are the natural place to send
		Map-Requests.=20

	(iii).	No caching in the ALT/simplicity

		We didn't see (haven't yet seen) the need to do
		caching in the ALT, so the original ALT design
		had the xTRs participating in the ALT directly
		(i.e., BGP peering with the ALT somewhere), so
		having ETRs respond to map-requests was the most
		straightforward approach.

=09
	Hope this helps.

	Dave

From jnc@mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Fri Jun  5 07:32:24 2009
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From: jnc@mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
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Subject: Re: [lisp] Question regarding LISP+ALT
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    > From: David Meyer <dmm@1-4-5.net>

    >> does that imply that the ETR is under control of the user organization
    >> and part of its network?

    > Yes, in the case where LISP is fielded in the site's CPE. One could
    > also imagine a managed service where the SP provides and manages the
    > site's CPE(s).
    > In any event, deploying LISP in CPE-type boxes is expected to be a
    > comon scenaro for LISP.

It's probably worth pointing out that i) LISP will of course work with a
number of different scenarios, ii) the 'typical' scenario would probably
change over time (as it did with, say, Web servers), and iii) different
organizations will prefer different scenarios, depending on their own
particular circumstances.

The one thing we need to be careful of is to make sure that the architecture
doesn't 'lock in' customers to any particular provider. That was a concern
with CONS, but as far as I know, nothing in the current proposed deployment
has that characteritic. However, we do need to keep it in mind with anything
that is changed/added.

	Noel

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On Fri, Jun 05, 2009 at 10:32:25AM -0400, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>     > From: David Meyer <dmm@1-4-5.net>
>=20
>     >> does that imply that the ETR is under control of the user organiza=
tion
>     >> and part of its network?
>=20
>     > Yes, in the case where LISP is fielded in the site's CPE. One could
>     > also imagine a managed service where the SP provides and manages the
>     > site's CPE(s).
>     > In any event, deploying LISP in CPE-type boxes is expected to be a
>     > comon scenaro for LISP.
>=20
> It's probably worth pointing out that i) LISP will of course work with a
> number of different scenarios, ii) the 'typical' scenario would probably
> change over time (as it did with, say, Web servers), and iii) different
> organizations will prefer different scenarios, depending on their own
> particular circumstances.

	Sure, well taken.

> The one thing we need to be careful of is to make sure that the architect=
ure
> doesn't 'lock in' customers to any particular provider. That was a concern
> with CONS, but as far as I know, nothing in the current proposed deployme=
nt
> has that characteritic. However, we do need to keep it in mind with anyth=
ing
> that is changed/added.

	I'll just note that it is a design goal of LISP to
	solve the provider lock-in that arises from PA numbering
	of a site. Separating site numbering from core numbering
	to large extent accomplishes that goal. Of course, you
	would have to renumber your xTRs when changing providers
	(you'd likely change RLOCs), but that is anticipated to
	be a small overhead in comparison to renumbering an
	entire site.=20

	Dave


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From: "Templin, Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>
To: "David Meyer" <dmm@1-4-5.net>, "Noel Chiappa" <jnc@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Meyer [mailto:dmm@1-4-5.net]
> Sent: Friday, June 05, 2009 7:58 AM
> To: Noel Chiappa
> Cc: lisp@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [lisp] Question regarding LISP+ALT
>=20
> On Fri, Jun 05, 2009 at 10:32:25AM -0400, Noel Chiappa wrote:
> >     > From: David Meyer <dmm@1-4-5.net>
> >
> >     >> does that imply that the ETR is under control of the user
organization
> >     >> and part of its network?
> >
> >     > Yes, in the case where LISP is fielded in the site's CPE. One
could
> >     > also imagine a managed service where the SP provides and
manages the
> >     > site's CPE(s).
> >     > In any event, deploying LISP in CPE-type boxes is expected to
be a
> >     > comon scenaro for LISP.
> >
> > It's probably worth pointing out that i) LISP will of course work
with a
> > number of different scenarios, ii) the 'typical' scenario would
probably
> > change over time (as it did with, say, Web servers), and iii)
different
> > organizations will prefer different scenarios, depending on their
own
> > particular circumstances.
>=20
> 	Sure, well taken.
>=20
> > The one thing we need to be careful of is to make sure that the
architecture
> > doesn't 'lock in' customers to any particular provider. That was a
concern
> > with CONS, but as far as I know, nothing in the current proposed
deployment
> > has that characteritic. However, we do need to keep it in mind with
anything
> > that is changed/added.
>=20
> 	I'll just note that it is a design goal of LISP to
> 	solve the provider lock-in that arises from PA numbering
> 	of a site. Separating site numbering from core numbering
> 	to large extent accomplishes that goal. Of course, you
> 	would have to renumber your xTRs when changing providers
> 	(you'd likely change RLOCs), but that is anticipated to
> 	be a small overhead in comparison to renumbering an
> 	entire site.

There is a bit more to PI than just changing the RLOCs, and
we have already tackled that in VET and RANGER.

That said, I would go a bit further and say that xTR RLOC
changes would be completely invisible to the site a very
nice architectural feature.

Fred
fred.l.templin@boeing.com

>=20
> 	Dave


From damian.lezama@hotmail.com  Sat Jun  6 21:33:50 2009
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Subject: [lisp] Reachability bits and PE deployment
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Hi,

 

I'm trying to understand how the reachability bits can be controlled in an
scenario where the xTR's reside inside different ISPs for a multihomed site.
As an example if I have a site and 2 providers (A and B) and a host in my
site with EID E sends traffic that goes through A, the ITR at A should
include information about the reachability to E through provider B, how can
it possibly have that information?

 

I see three possible deployment scenarios explained in the draft, and there
are also combinations. When xTRs are deployed into the customer site I
assume that the site will need mechanisms to keep its xTRs consistent, but
when multiple providers enter the scene I don't get how this could work.

 

Thanks,

Damian

 


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<p class=3DMsoNormal>Hi,<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>I&#8217;m trying to understand how the reachability =
bits can
be controlled in an scenario where the xTR&#8217;s reside inside =
different ISPs
for a multihomed site. As an example if I have a site and 2 providers (A =
and B)
and a host in my site with EID E sends traffic that goes through A, the =
ITR at
A should include information about the reachability to E through =
provider B,
how can it possibly have that information?<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>I see three possible deployment scenarios explained =
in the
draft, and there are also combinations. When xTRs are deployed into the =
customer
site I assume that the site will need mechanisms to keep its xTRs =
consistent, but
when multiple providers enter the scene I don&#8217;t get how this could =
work.<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>Damian<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

</div>

</body>

</html>

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Subject: Re: [lisp] Reachability bits and PE deployment
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> I=92m trying to understand how the reachability bits can be controlled =
=20
> in an scenario where the xTR=92s reside inside different ISPs for a =20=

> multihomed site. As an example if I have a site and 2 providers (A

They cannot be controlled. The xTRs need to be in the same =20
administrative domain.

As we have said before, the sweet-spot for deploying LISP routers is =20
where they will be least disruptive to the existing network. That is =20
in the CPE router.

If you feel LISP functionality can or you want it to be in PE/P =20
routers within an ISP, then you have to use other reachability =20
mechanism. One that is obvious is using BGP.

> and B) and a host in my site with EID E sends traffic that goes =20
> through A, the ITR at A should include information about the =20
> reachability to E through provider B, how can it possibly have that =20=

> information?

You should not use the loc-reach-bits for this application.

> I see three possible deployment scenarios explained in the draft, =20
> and there are also combinations. When xTRs are deployed into the =20
> customer site I assume that the site will need mechanisms to keep =20
> its xTRs consistent, but when multiple providers enter the scene I =20
> don=92t get how this could work.

Yes, by configuration the xTRs at a site are kept consistent. And you =20=

use route-change notifications from the IGP protocol you run at the =20
site to tell xTRs which other xTRs have gone down.

Dino

>
> Thanks,
> Damian
>
> _______________________________________________
> lisp mailing list
> lisp@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lisp


From jmh@joelhalpern.com  Sun Jun  7 14:40:33 2009
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Subject: Re: [lisp] Reachability bits and PE deployment
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If PE deployments catch on, and if the PEs are using IGPs to talk to the 
site, then one can imagine flooding extra (opaque) information through 
the IGP to provide xTR synchrony.
Alternatively, there are multiple mechanisms involving the xTRs peering 
over the Internet cloud and exchanging liveness information.

It probably would help us to decide either that we are going to focus on 
the CE deployment, or that we are explicitly going to address more 
deployment scenarios.  Given many of the goals, taking CE deployment as 
our first goal would seem quite sensible.

Yours,
Joel

Dino Farinacci wrote:
>> I’m trying to understand how the reachability bits can be controlled 
>> in an scenario where the xTR’s reside inside different ISPs for a 
>> multihomed site. As an example if I have a site and 2 providers (A
> 
> They cannot be controlled. The xTRs need to be in the same 
> administrative domain.
> 
> As we have said before, the sweet-spot for deploying LISP routers is 
> where they will be least disruptive to the existing network. That is in 
> the CPE router.
> 
> If you feel LISP functionality can or you want it to be in PE/P routers 
> within an ISP, then you have to use other reachability mechanism. One 
> that is obvious is using BGP.
> 
>> and B) and a host in my site with EID E sends traffic that goes 
>> through A, the ITR at A should include information about the 
>> reachability to E through provider B, how can it possibly have that 
>> information?
> 
> You should not use the loc-reach-bits for this application.
> 
>> I see three possible deployment scenarios explained in the draft, and 
>> there are also combinations. When xTRs are deployed into the customer 
>> site I assume that the site will need mechanisms to keep its xTRs 
>> consistent, but when multiple providers enter the scene I don’t get 
>> how this could work.
> 
> Yes, by configuration the xTRs at a site are kept consistent. And you 
> use route-change notifications from the IGP protocol you run at the site 
> to tell xTRs which other xTRs have gone down.
> 
> Dino
> 
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Damian
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> lisp mailing list
>> lisp@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lisp
> 
> _______________________________________________
> lisp mailing list
> lisp@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lisp
> 

From dino@cisco.com  Sun Jun  7 15:03:13 2009
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Subject: Re: [lisp] Reachability bits and PE deployment
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> It probably would help us to decide either that we are going to  
> focus on the CE deployment, or that we are explicitly going to  
> address more deployment scenarios.  Given many of the goals, taking  
> CE deployment as our first goal would seem quite sensible.

100% agree.

Dino


From dmm@1-4-5.net  Mon Jun  8 07:47:35 2009
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> It probably would help us to decide either that we are going to focus on =
=20
> the CE deployment, or that we are explicitly going to address more =20
> deployment scenarios.  Given many of the goals, taking CE deployment as =
=20
> our first goal would seem quite sensible.

	Agreed Joel.

	Dave

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From Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com  Mon Jun  8 07:56:21 2009
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From: "Templin, Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>
To: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>, "Damian Lezama" <damian.lezama@hotmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [lisp] Reachability bits and PE deployment
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> It probably would help us to decide either that we are going to focus
on
> the CE deployment, or that we are explicitly going to address more
> deployment scenarios.  Given many of the goals, taking CE deployment
as
> our first goal would seem quite sensible.

Hey - RANGER/VET/SEAL already have the CPE deployment scenario
well-covered. Those documents already define mechanisms well
suited to the CPE scenario (e.g., default router discovery,
secure redirection, address autoconfiguration, etc.) so what
would be the point of trying to push LISP into that space?

Fred
fred.l.templin@boeing.com


From hartmans@mit.edu  Mon Jun  8 11:22:12 2009
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Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 14:22:08 -0400
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Subject: [lisp] Issue Tracking Procedure
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The chairs are seeking comments on the following issue tracking
procedure that we'd like to use with the LISP working group.  While
this is a management issue and so we may not need to get a consensus
on it, we definitely do want to seek input.

We plan to use the tools.ietf.org issue tracker to track open issues
with the LISP specifications to make sure that they are addressed.
However, discussion will take place on the mailing list.  The issue
tracker represents summaries of the issues and their resolution; new
content needs to appear on the list.

The issue tracker will be managed by document editors, the WG
secretary and the WG chairs. These people will be responsible for
creating, updating and resolving issues based on the WG discussion.
Especially for creating issues, we hope that the document editors will
take the initiative.

                          Creating an Issue

Whenever a WG participant flags a problem they believe needs to be
address or an enhancement they would like to see made in on of our
documents in a message, the document editors should open a new issue
and reply to the message including the issue number in the subject.


WG participants should try to include only one issue per message when
opening a message.  However when opening issues in the tracker, it may
be necessary to split a message into multiple issues.  It may be
tricky to figure out where the boundary between issues is.  It's
probably reasonable to include several editorial recommendations in an
issue.  It may be reasonable to include several text changes to
different sections that together effect one consistent technical
change as a single issue.  However it is desirable to separate
technical issues where the WG may have different opinions.  It is
better to err on the side of separating rather than combining issues.

                         Commenting on Issues

It is important that whenever possible a reply to an issue include the
issue number in the subject and only address one issue per message.
WG participants are strongly encouraged to wait for an issue to be
opened and assigned a number before replying to a message opening an
issue.

                            Closing Issues

If the document editor replies to an issue, and the person opening the
issue agrees then the issue can be closed.  There need not be text
changes; some times discussion reveals that the text is clear or that
the desired change is not a good idea.  If someone objects to the
issue being closed within a reasonable time then it will be reopened.

If agreement is not reached between the document editor and person
opening the issue or if objections are raised by others, then the WG
chairs will judge the consensus of the working group.


From jmh@joelhalpern.com  Mon Jun  8 11:32:29 2009
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Subject: Re: [lisp] Issue Tracking Procedure
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Using an issue tracker seems to be a good practice.
I have two concerns:

1) In some WGs that use the issue tracker, there is a tendency for the 
folks who use it day-to-day to assume that everyone knows the issues by 
number.  So there is often less context in the email messages about the 
issue than there would be without the tracker.  This strikes me as a bad 
idea.

2) If at all possible, we should figure out how to cope well without 
requiring the issue number in the subject line.  Aside from sheer 
clutter (I want descriptive subjects, even if we have issue numbers), I 
have found it hard sometimes, as a participant in WGs using the tracker, 
to know what number I am supposed to put on something.  The tools should 
enable us, not put us in a straight-jacket.  Topics drift for good 
reason, and multiple issues are often related.

Yours,
Joel

Sam Hartman wrote:
> 
> The chairs are seeking comments on the following issue tracking
> procedure that we'd like to use with the LISP working group.  While
> this is a management issue and so we may not need to get a consensus
> on it, we definitely do want to seek input.
> 
> We plan to use the tools.ietf.org issue tracker to track open issues
> with the LISP specifications to make sure that they are addressed.
> However, discussion will take place on the mailing list.  The issue
> tracker represents summaries of the issues and their resolution; new
> content needs to appear on the list.
> 
> The issue tracker will be managed by document editors, the WG
> secretary and the WG chairs. These people will be responsible for
> creating, updating and resolving issues based on the WG discussion.
> Especially for creating issues, we hope that the document editors will
> take the initiative.
> 
>                           Creating an Issue
> 
> Whenever a WG participant flags a problem they believe needs to be
> address or an enhancement they would like to see made in on of our
> documents in a message, the document editors should open a new issue
> and reply to the message including the issue number in the subject.
> 
> 
> WG participants should try to include only one issue per message when
> opening a message.  However when opening issues in the tracker, it may
> be necessary to split a message into multiple issues.  It may be
> tricky to figure out where the boundary between issues is.  It's
> probably reasonable to include several editorial recommendations in an
> issue.  It may be reasonable to include several text changes to
> different sections that together effect one consistent technical
> change as a single issue.  However it is desirable to separate
> technical issues where the WG may have different opinions.  It is
> better to err on the side of separating rather than combining issues.
> 
>                          Commenting on Issues
> 
> It is important that whenever possible a reply to an issue include the
> issue number in the subject and only address one issue per message.
> WG participants are strongly encouraged to wait for an issue to be
> opened and assigned a number before replying to a message opening an
> issue.
> 
>                             Closing Issues
> 
> If the document editor replies to an issue, and the person opening the
> issue agrees then the issue can be closed.  There need not be text
> changes; some times discussion reveals that the text is clear or that
> the desired change is not a good idea.  If someone objects to the
> issue being closed within a reasonable time then it will be reopened.
> 
> If agreement is not reached between the document editor and person
> opening the issue or if objections are raised by others, then the WG
> chairs will judge the consensus of the working group.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> lisp mailing list
> lisp@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lisp
> 

From hartmans@mit.edu  Mon Jun  8 11:48:31 2009
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From: Sam Hartman <hartmans-ietf@mit.edu>
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I forgot to cover a couple of things:

                          Content of Issues

The issue tracker should contain a description of the issue, a summary
of the discussion and the resolution of the issue.  If specific text
changes are made in response to an issue they need to be included.
Quoting messages to the list to provide the description of the issue
and the summary of discussion is encouraged.  However it is not
important to quote all traffic on the list unless doing so adds
clarity.

                          Changes Summaries

When Document editors post new versions of their drafts, they should
briefly describe the changes in the draft and their motivation.  An
example might be something like "Changed LISP header (issue 32)".
Editorial changes do not need to be explicitly called out.  Not all
changes need to be linked back to the issue tracker, although more
explanation for the change is needed if an issue is not referenced so
the WG can tell why the change was made and the level of
discussion/consensus.

--Sam

From dino@cisco.com  Mon Jun  8 12:13:33 2009
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From: Dino Farinacci <dino@cisco.com>
To: "Templin, Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>
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Cc: lisp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [lisp] Reachability bits and PE deployment
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LISP has always been in the CPE space. There seem to be others pushing  
it in the PE space.

Dino

On Jun 8, 2009, at 7:54 AM, Templin, Fred L wrote:

>> It probably would help us to decide either that we are going to focus
> on
>> the CE deployment, or that we are explicitly going to address more
>> deployment scenarios.  Given many of the goals, taking CE deployment
> as
>> our first goal would seem quite sensible.
>
> Hey - RANGER/VET/SEAL already have the CPE deployment scenario
> well-covered. Those documents already define mechanisms well
> suited to the CPE scenario (e.g., default router discovery,
> secure redirection, address autoconfiguration, etc.) so what
> would be the point of trying to push LISP into that space?
>
> Fred
> fred.l.templin@boeing.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> lisp mailing list
> lisp@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lisp


From dmm@1-4-5.net  Mon Jun  8 13:25:08 2009
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Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 13:25:11 -0700
From: David Meyer <dmm@1-4-5.net>
To: Sam Hartman <hartmans-ietf@mit.edu>
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Subject: Re: [lisp] Issue Tracking Procedure
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On Mon, Jun 08, 2009 at 02:22:08PM -0400, Sam Hartman wrote:
>=20
>=20
> The chairs are seeking comments on the following issue tracking
> procedure that we'd like to use with the LISP working group.  While
> this is a management issue and so we may not need to get a consensus
> on it, we definitely do want to seek input.
>=20
> We plan to use the tools.ietf.org issue tracker to track open issues
> with the LISP specifications to make sure that they are addressed.
> However, discussion will take place on the mailing list.  The issue
> tracker represents summaries of the issues and their resolution; new
> content needs to appear on the list.
>=20
> The issue tracker will be managed by document editors, the WG
> secretary and the WG chairs. These people will be responsible for
> creating, updating and resolving issues based on the WG discussion.
> Especially for creating issues, we hope that the document editors will
> take the initiative.
>=20
>                           Creating an Issue
>=20
> Whenever a WG participant flags a problem they believe needs to be
> address or an enhancement they would like to see made in on of our
> documents in a message, the document editors should open a new issue
> and reply to the message including the issue number in the subject.
>=20
>=20
> WG participants should try to include only one issue per message when
> opening a message.  However when opening issues in the tracker, it may
> be necessary to split a message into multiple issues.  It may be
> tricky to figure out where the boundary between issues is.  It's
> probably reasonable to include several editorial recommendations in an
> issue.  It may be reasonable to include several text changes to
> different sections that together effect one consistent technical
> change as a single issue.  However it is desirable to separate
> technical issues where the WG may have different opinions.  It is
> better to err on the side of separating rather than combining issues.
>=20
>                          Commenting on Issues
>=20
> It is important that whenever possible a reply to an issue include the
> issue number in the subject and only address one issue per message.
> WG participants are strongly encouraged to wait for an issue to be
> opened and assigned a number before replying to a message opening an
> issue.
>=20
>                             Closing Issues
>=20
> If the document editor replies to an issue, and the person opening the
> issue agrees then the issue can be closed.  There need not be text
> changes; some times discussion reveals that the text is clear or that
> the desired change is not a good idea.  If someone objects to the
> issue being closed within a reasonable time then it will be reopened.
>=20
> If agreement is not reached between the document editor and person
> opening the issue or if objections are raised by others, then the WG
> chairs will judge the consensus of the working group.
>=20

	Seems reasonable. Two issues:=20

	(i).	Referring to an issue: Content v. Issue Number

		Frequently there is a non-empty intersection of
		people who don't read the tracker and but who do
		read the mailing list.=20

		Sometimes this creates problems if folks refer to
		an issue by number rather than "content" of the
		issue. That can likely be handled by convention,
		or at worst, by reference (to the tracker), but I
		have seen this issue cause confusion.


	(ii).	Creating an issue: DoS attacks

		This hasn't happened here (obviously) but I have
		seen it happen. Do you have an idea of how you're
		going to handle this (other than wait and see what
		happens)?=20

		The concern here is malicious use of the tracker
		to impede otherwise legitimate progress that the
		WG may be making. =20
	=09
	Dave


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From hartmans@mit.edu  Tue Jun  9 06:07:49 2009
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From: Sam Hartman <hartmans-ietf@mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 09:07:43 -0400
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>>>>> "David" == David Meyer <dmm@1-4-5.net> writes:


    David> 	(i). Referring to an issue: Content v. Issue Number

    David> 		Frequently there is a non-empty intersection
    David> of people who don't read the tracker and but who do read
    David> the mailing list.

    David> 		Sometimes this creates problems if folks refer
    David> to an issue by number rather than "content" of the
    David> issue. That can likely be handled by convention, or at
    David> worst, by reference (to the tracker), but I have seen this
    David> issue cause confusion.

Yes.
I'm thinking of something like
Subject [#39] LISP is red not green.

Or in running text "The WG discussed red vs green (#39); the consensus
of the room was that it didn't matter but that for interoperability,
we needed to pick.  Green was chosen."


    David> 	(ii). Creating an issue: DoS attacks

    David> 		This hasn't happened here (obviously) but I
    David> have seen it happen. Do you have an idea of how you're
    David> going to handle this (other than wait and see what
    David> happens)?

    David> 		The concern here is malicious use of the
    David> tracker to impede otherwise legitimate progress that the WG
    David> may be making.


Perhaps my imagination is limited but I cannot think of any new cases
where an issue tracker makes things worse.  This seems to boil down to
how to handle disruptive individuals who are trying to block the WG
process.  The issue tracker helps us keep track of things.  The
obligation to respond to issues that are raised exists independent of
the issue tracker, as do the tools for dealing with disruptions.

The mechanism Eliot suggests doesn't appeal to my style as a chair,
although if things got bad enough I'd adopt something similar.  I'm
certainly committed to making forward progress while the rough
consensus of the WG is to do so.


From hartmans@mit.edu  Tue Jun  9 06:33:16 2009
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Cc: 
References: <tsleiu3exaj.fsf@mit.edu> <4A2404D0.9080406@joelhalpern.com> <4A240834.7000106@uclouvain.be> <tslws7vdgb2.fsf@mit.edu> <4A87C591-F5C3-4180-8FBB-D71E65F00145@net.t-labs.tu-berlin.de> <tslk53u8zsu.fsf@mit.edu> <4A25846F.4030408@uclouvain.be> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105FF997C@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <tslfxeh72ts.fsf@mit.edu> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A10603D265@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A10603D2D8@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A10603D5B2@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com>
From: Sam Hartman <hartmans-ietf@mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 09:33:10 -0400
In-Reply-To: <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A10603D5B2@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> (Fred L. Templin's message of "Thu\, 4 Jun 2009 10\:19\:40 -0700")
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Subject: Re: [lisp] Path MTU concerns and proposed resolutions [respond by June 13]
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Fred has made a proposal for changes to the LISP MTU handling
procedure.  Presumably if the WG were to adopt these changes we'd need
to define an RF header bit and a fragmentation report message.

So far, no one besides Fred has indicated support for the proposal.
In order for the proposal to be adopted we'll need to reach a rough
consensus of the WG.  The chairs request that anyone wishing to
express support for this proposal do so by June 12, 2009.

From dmm@1-4-5.net  Tue Jun  9 07:15:45 2009
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Subject: Re: [lisp] Issue Tracking Procedure
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On Tue, Jun 09, 2009 at 09:07:43AM -0400, Sam Hartman wrote:
> >>>>> "David" =3D=3D David Meyer <dmm@1-4-5.net> writes:
>=20
>=20
>     David> 	(i). Referring to an issue: Content v. Issue Number
>=20
>     David> 		Frequently there is a non-empty intersection
>     David> of people who don't read the tracker and but who do read
>     David> the mailing list.
>=20
>     David> 		Sometimes this creates problems if folks refer
>     David> to an issue by number rather than "content" of the
>     David> issue. That can likely be handled by convention, or at
>     David> worst, by reference (to the tracker), but I have seen this
>     David> issue cause confusion.
>=20
> Yes.
> I'm thinking of something like
> Subject [#39] LISP is red not green.
>=20
> Or in running text "The WG discussed red vs green (#39); the consensus
> of the room was that it didn't matter but that for interoperability,
> we needed to pick.  Green was chosen."


	That approach has worked in the past (and is the solution
	I've used in my WGs).


>     David> 	(ii). Creating an issue: DoS attacks
>=20
>     David> 		This hasn't happened here (obviously) but I
>     David> have seen it happen. Do you have an idea of how you're
>     David> going to handle this (other than wait and see what
>     David> happens)?
>=20
>     David> 		The concern here is malicious use of the
>     David> tracker to impede otherwise legitimate progress that the WG
>     David> may be making.
>=20
>=20
> Perhaps my imagination is limited but I cannot think of any new cases
> where an issue tracker makes things worse.  This seems to boil down to
> how to handle disruptive individuals who are trying to block the WG
> process.  The issue tracker helps us keep track of things.  The
> obligation to respond to issues that are raised exists independent of
> the issue tracker, as do the tools for dealing with disruptions.

	Fair enough. The point here is that the tracker provides
	a mechanism/focal point for people who are so inclined to
	organize their DoS attacks. In any event, I just wanted
	to raise the issue because I've seen it happen.  =20

> The mechanism Eliot suggests doesn't appeal to my style as a chair,
> although if things got bad enough I'd adopt something similar.  I'm
> certainly committed to making forward progress while the rough
> consensus of the WG is to do so.

	Ok. Let's see how it goes. Perhaps my concern is
	misplaced (which would be a happy outcome).=20

	Dave

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From lear@cisco.com  Tue Jun  9 07:41:47 2009
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Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 16:41:39 +0200
From: Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [lisp] Issue Tracking Procedure
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Sam,

On 6/9/09 3:07 PM, Sam Hartman wrote:
> The mechanism Eliot suggests doesn't appeal to my style as a chair,
> although if things got bad enough I'd adopt something similar.  I'm
> certainly committed to making forward progress while the rough
> consensus of the WG is to do so.
>    

First, you may not had noticed that I had only addressed my message was 
to the chairs, precisely because I agree with what you say above.  What 
I wrote to the chairs was that if you got into a situation where there 
were some particularly driven individuals on particular points, there 
are mechanisms available to chairs to assist in those situations.  One 
of them is to require a certain number of people to open an issue.  
However, you only do that when you need to, and you only do it at a late 
stage in the process, and not an early stage.  And of course, whether 
you do it at all is at the discretion of the chairs.

Eliot

From menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de  Thu Jun 11 17:06:28 2009
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Subject: [lisp] rDNS with new "RLOC RR"
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Hi all,

reverse DNS with a new RLOC resource record could be used to implement a 
service providing EID-to-RLOC mappings. Instead, LISP has defined 
multiple mapping systems. I guess there were reasons for that. Why is 
rDNS with "RLOC RR" a bad idea?

I have found the following presentation looking at similar ideas: 
http://www.dinof.net/~dino/ietf/lisp2.ppt
Scheme 1 of the presentation is essentially what I have described above 
(apparently an obvious solution ...). Is there an outdated draft related 
to this document?

Page 19 of the document says that the drawback of Scheme 1 is the fact 
that packets are dropped until the ITR receives the mapping. But that 
also holds for the current deployment of LISP+ALT. So what are other 
drawbacks of the DNS-based mapping system that prevented it from being 
used as the preferred option?

Regards,

    Michael

-- 
Dr. Michael Menth, Assistant Professor
University of Wuerzburg, Institute of Computer Science
Am Hubland, D-97074 Wuerzburg, Germany, room B206
phone: (+49)-931/31-86644 (new), fax: (+49)-931/8888-6632
mailto:menth@informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de
http://www3.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/research/ngn


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Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 23:04:02 -0700
From: Vince Fuller <vaf@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [lisp] rDNS with new "RLOC RR"
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> reverse DNS with a new RLOC resource record could be used to implement a  
> service providing EID-to-RLOC mappings. Instead, LISP has defined  
> multiple mapping systems. I guess there were reasons for that. Why is  
> rDNS with "RLOC RR" a bad idea?
>
> I have found the following presentation looking at similar ideas:  
> http://www.dinof.net/~dino/ietf/lisp2.ppt
> Scheme 1 of the presentation is essentially what I have described above  
> (apparently an obvious solution ...). Is there an outdated draft related  
> to this document?
>
> Page 19 of the document says that the drawback of Scheme 1 is the fact  
> that packets are dropped until the ITR receives the mapping. But that  
> also holds for the current deployment of LISP+ALT. So what are other  
> drawbacks of the DNS-based mapping system that prevented it from being  
> used as the preferred option?

The LISP authors considered a DNS-based approach early on in the design of
mapping systems. We even had a name for it: LISP variant 2.

During informal discussions with members of the Internet operations
community, we received a lot of push-back against that idea. If I recall
correctly, two of the key concerns were:

    1) adding EID-to-RLOC data to the DNS could potentially interfere with
       its normal role in name-to-address translation (as if the DNS isn't
       already being used as a kitchen sink for ENUM and other things...)

    2) creation of a circular dependency where the addresses of DNS servers
       might need to be looked up in an EID-to-RLOC mapping database that, in
       turn, needed to use those DNS servers to resolve them.

There are and were fairly obvious ways to avoid both of these problems:

    - for #1, use only the DNS protocols with a completely separate
      infrastructure of servers and resolvers for LISP and perhaps even a
      separate UDP port number

    - for #2, number the DNS infrastructure used for LISP out of RLOC space,
      which by definition does not need any EID-to-RLOC lookups

I think, though, that the real issue was a more vague and perhaps emotional
concern that the DNS infrastructure is already too fragile.

If someone wants to write an Internet Draft that specifies how the DNS could
be used to manage an EID-to-RLOC database, I suspect that my fellow LISP
authors would be very interested in the result. Similarly, if someone wants
to design and specify a DHT-based mapping database (which would be catagorized
as LISP variant 3), we'd be interested in that, too.

Note, though, that by "specify", I mean that there should be sufficient
detail that an implementor could build to it. That means figuring out the
nasty details that tend to turn something simple, elegant, and obvious
into a far more complicated implementation. 

	--Vince

From tme@americafree.tv  Fri Jun 12 07:07:23 2009
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On Jun 12, 2009, at 2:04 AM, Vince Fuller wrote:

>> reverse DNS with a new RLOC resource record could be used to  
>> implement a
>> service providing EID-to-RLOC mappings. Instead, LISP has defined
>> multiple mapping systems. I guess there were reasons for that. Why is
>> rDNS with "RLOC RR" a bad idea?
>>
>> I have found the following presentation looking at similar ideas:
>> http://www.dinof.net/~dino/ietf/lisp2.ppt
>> Scheme 1 of the presentation is essentially what I have described  
>> above
>> (apparently an obvious solution ...). Is there an outdated draft  
>> related
>> to this document?
>>
>> Page 19 of the document says that the drawback of Scheme 1 is the  
>> fact
>> that packets are dropped until the ITR receives the mapping. But that
>> also holds for the current deployment of LISP+ALT. So what are other
>> drawbacks of the DNS-based mapping system that prevented it from  
>> being
>> used as the preferred option?
>
> The LISP authors considered a DNS-based approach early on in the  
> design of
> mapping systems. We even had a name for it: LISP variant 2.
>
> During informal discussions with members of the Internet operations
> community, we received a lot of push-back against that idea. If I  
> recall
> correctly, two of the key concerns were:
>
>    1) adding EID-to-RLOC data to the DNS could potentially interfere  
> with
>       its normal role in name-to-address translation (as if the DNS  
> isn't
>       already being used as a kitchen sink for ENUM and other  
> things...)
>
>    2) creation of a circular dependency where the addresses of DNS  
> servers
>       might need to be looked up in an EID-to-RLOC mapping database  
> that, in
>       turn, needed to use those DNS servers to resolve them.
>
> There are and were fairly obvious ways to avoid both of these  
> problems:
>
>    - for #1, use only the DNS protocols with a completely separate
>      infrastructure of servers and resolvers for LISP and perhaps  
> even a
>      separate UDP port number
>
>    - for #2, number the DNS infrastructure used for LISP out of RLOC  
> space,
>      which by definition does not need any EID-to-RLOC lookups
>
> I think, though, that the real issue was a more vague and perhaps  
> emotional
> concern that the DNS infrastructure is already too fragile.
>

Speaking as a small company person, I suspect that DNS is not the  
right instrument for this.
Just from my experience (so, anecdotal, not synoptic) :

- I would just observe that most of the small multi-homed companies I  
have dealt with use a hosting company
for their DNS. If that DNS was doing routing as well, that would  
probably have to change. That would mean you
would have to train / hire someone to do DNS.

Companies only have so much bandwidth to think about these sorts of  
things, and would not appreciate being forced to change the way they  
did their name service.

- In my experience small companies are more tolerant of short DNS  
outages than short
routing outages. (Existing flows are not interrupted by the first, but  
are by the second.)
- In my experience it is common for them not to use DNS at all for  
mission critical interactions. (This is of course connected with the  
previous point.)
- In my experience DNS TTLs are typically set fairly long, except for  
planned changes. This means that DNS changes typically take the form

    - lower the ttl
    - wait for old ttls to time out
    - make the change
    - test
    - raise the ttl

It would scare me if routing was required to undergo the same multi- 
day cycle to make changes. (Would
you buy a router that promised multi-day BGP convergence times ?)

- DNS is subject to DOS and DDOS type attacks. These can really hammer  
a DNS server. I don't think that
it would be a good idea if routing was subject to the same types of  
attacks.

Now, I am sure that most of the above could be engineered around, but  
I do think that such considerations mean that there would be push back  
from small companies (a logical constituency for LISP IMO) if DNS was  
part of the soup.

Regards
Marshall

> If someone wants to write an Internet Draft that specifies how the  
> DNS could
> be used to manage an EID-to-RLOC database, I suspect that my fellow  
> LISP
> authors would be very interested in the result. Similarly, if  
> someone wants
> to design and specify a DHT-based mapping database (which would be  
> catagorized
> as LISP variant 3), we'd be interested in that, too.
>
> Note, though, that by "specify", I mean that there should be  
> sufficient
> detail that an implementor could build to it. That means figuring  
> out the
> nasty details that tend to turn something simple, elegant, and obvious
> into a far more complicated implementation.
>
> 	--Vince
> _______________________________________________
> lisp mailing list
> lisp@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lisp
>


From cdl@asgaard.org  Fri Jun 12 07:54:58 2009
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From: Christopher LILJENSTOLPE <cdl@asgaard.org>
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Subject: Re: [lisp] rDNS with new "RLOC RR"
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Greetings Marshall,

On 12/06/2009, at 7:07 AM, Marshall Eubanks wrote:

>
> On Jun 12, 2009, at 2:04 AM, Vince Fuller wrote:
>
>>> reverse DNS with a new RLOC resource record could be used to =20
>>> implement a
>>> service providing EID-to-RLOC mappings. Instead, LISP has defined
>>> multiple mapping systems. I guess there were reasons for that. Why =20=

>>> is
>>> rDNS with "RLOC RR" a bad idea?
>>>
>>> I have found the following presentation looking at similar ideas:
>>> http://www.dinof.net/~dino/ietf/lisp2.ppt
>>> Scheme 1 of the presentation is essentially what I have described =20=

>>> above
>>> (apparently an obvious solution ...). Is there an outdated draft =20
>>> related
>>> to this document?
>>>
>>> Page 19 of the document says that the drawback of Scheme 1 is the =20=

>>> fact
>>> that packets are dropped until the ITR receives the mapping. But =20
>>> that
>>> also holds for the current deployment of LISP+ALT. So what are other
>>> drawbacks of the DNS-based mapping system that prevented it from =20
>>> being
>>> used as the preferred option?
>>
>> The LISP authors considered a DNS-based approach early on in the =20
>> design of
>> mapping systems. We even had a name for it: LISP variant 2.
>>
>> [clip]
>> There are and were fairly obvious ways to avoid both of these =20
>> problems:
>>
>>   - for #1, use only the DNS protocols with a completely separate
>>     infrastructure of servers and resolvers for LISP and perhaps =20
>> even a
>>     separate UDP port number
>>
>>   - for #2, number the DNS infrastructure used for LISP out of RLOC =20=

>> space,
>>     which by definition does not need any EID-to-RLOC lookups
>>
>> I think, though, that the real issue was a more vague and perhaps =20
>> emotional
>> concern that the DNS infrastructure is already too fragile.
>>
>
> Speaking as a small company person, I suspect that DNS is not the =20
> right instrument for this.
> Just from my experience (so, anecdotal, not synoptic) :
>
> - I would just observe that most of the small multi-homed companies =20=

> I have dealt with use a hosting company
> for their DNS. If that DNS was doing routing as well, that would =20
> probably have to change. That would mean you
> would have to train / hire someone to do DNS.
>
> Companies only have so much bandwidth to think about these sorts of =20=

> things, and would not appreciate being forced to change the way they =20=

> did their name service.
>
> - In my experience small companies are more tolerant of short DNS =20
> outages than short
> routing outages. (Existing flows are not interrupted by the first, =20
> but are by the second.)
> - In my experience it is common for them not to use DNS at all for =20
> mission critical interactions. (This is of course connected with the =20=

> previous point.)
> - In my experience DNS TTLs are typically set fairly long, except =20
> for planned changes. This means that DNS changes typically take the =20=

> form
>
>   - lower the ttl
>   - wait for old ttls to time out
>   - make the change
>   - test
>   - raise the ttl
>
> It would scare me if routing was required to undergo the same multi-=20=

> day cycle to make changes. (Would
> you buy a router that promised multi-day BGP convergence times ?)
>
> - DNS is subject to DOS and DDOS type attacks. These can really =20
> hammer a DNS server. I don't think that
> it would be a good idea if routing was subject to the same types of =20=

> attacks.
>
> Now, I am sure that most of the above could be engineered around, =20
> but I do think that such considerations mean that there would be =20
> push back from small companies (a logical constituency for LISP IMO) =20=

> if DNS was part of the soup.
>
> Regards
> Marshall
>
>> [clip]
>> 	--Vince
>
Remember that using DNS the protocol does not mean using the existing =20=

DNS infrastructure.  The protocol is interesting, however, I agree =20
that the existing implementation can be a bit fragile (but that =20
actually makes it more interesting, because, given it's fragile =20
nature, it still works surprisingly well in the macro sense).  If =20
someone were to pursue variant 2, I would suspect that you would want =20=

a different infrastructure to support it.

	Chris


- ---
=E6=9D=8E=E6=9F=AF=E7=9D=BF
Check my PGP key here:
https://www.asgaard.org/~cdl/cdl.asc

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From Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com  Fri Jun 12 15:38:03 2009
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Thread-Topic: [lisp] Path MTU concerns and proposed resolutions [respond byJune 13]
Thread-Index: AcnpBt7iTBlPcB4tQ5iFAVz1MOym1gCpnbgQ
References: <tsleiu3exaj.fsf@mit.edu> <4A2404D0.9080406@joelhalpern.com><4A240834.7000106@uclouvain.be> <tslws7vdgb2.fsf@mit.edu><4A87C591-F5C3-4180-8FBB-D71E65F00145@net.t-labs.tu-berlin.de><tslk53u8zsu.fsf@mit.edu> <4A25846F.4030408@uclouvain.be><39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105FF997C@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com><tslfxeh72ts.fsf@mit.edu><39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A10603D265@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com><39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A10603D2D8@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com><39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A10603D5B2@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <tslab4hmt0p.fsf_-_@mit.edu>
From: "Templin, Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>
To: "Sam Hartman" <hartmans-ietf@mit.edu>, <lisp@ietf.org>
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Jun 2009 22:38:08.0259 (UTC) FILETIME=[755C4D30:01C9EBAE]
Subject: Re: [lisp] Path MTU concerns and proposed resolutions [respond byJune 13]
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Hi Sam,

I have come up with some slight adjustments wrt the LISP
path MTU procedures that I posted on 6/4/09. In particular,
I am no longer asking for a Report Fragmentation (RF) bit,
as each and every LISP packet will be used as an implicit
probe and the ETR will generate a Fragmentation Report if
any fragmentation occurred. Instead, I am asking for a 'D'
bit in the LISP header which is copied from the DF bit
in the inner IP packet.

I am also backing off on the claim that the ITR need not
maintain path MTU state in the general case. This needs
a bit more investigation, but it seems the most robust
approach might be to have the ITR cache the path MTU
and drop too-big packets instead of admitting them into
the tunnel.

Fred
fred.l.templin@boeing.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sam Hartman [mailto:hartmans-ietf@mit.edu]
> Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 6:33 AM
> To: lisp@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [lisp] Path MTU concerns and proposed resolutions
[respond byJune 13]
>=20
> Fred has made a proposal for changes to the LISP MTU handling
> procedure.  Presumably if the WG were to adopt these changes we'd need
> to define an RF header bit and a fragmentation report message.
>=20
> So far, no one besides Fred has indicated support for the proposal.
> In order for the proposal to be adopted we'll need to reach a rough
> consensus of the WG.  The chairs request that anyone wishing to
> express support for this proposal do so by June 12, 2009.
> _______________________________________________
> lisp mailing list
> lisp@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lisp

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Subject: Re: [lisp] Map-Versioning
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Sorry for the long delay. See my responses inline.

> On Jun 3, 2009, at 18:44 , Dino Farinacci wrote:
>
>>> With one bit of state, in the event of even a single packet loss  
>>> there is ambiguity about what the bit means.  (If the sender sets  
>>> the bit on only one packet, and that packet gets lost, the bit has  
>>> gotten
>>
>> I said 1 bit. And didn't not mean that 1 packet is sent. The bit  
>> can stay set in a small packet train of  packets. It works like this:
>>
>> (1) Site A has a mapping database change.
>> (2) Site A is currently talking to Site B.
>> (3) Site A wants to update B's map-cache for itself.
>> (4) Site A sets the SMR bit in a sequence of packets to Site B.
>
> As far as I understand, at this point you need to keep track of the  
> fact that B has asked for new mapping in order to reset the SMR bit.

You know that when B sends a Map-Request with the nonce from the data  
packet with the SMR-bit. That was our intent.

> With versioning you do not need this. You just put a new version  
> number, B will understand that has to send a map-request and no  
> further actions are needed from A.

Understand. But I don't want to carry version numbers is each and  
every packet. Since mappings down change at data packet delivery  
granularity, you don't need that information in the data packet.

I was thinking of overloading the nonce field as you suggested in your  
presentation. But if we are going to use the nonces for inline data- 
path liveness, then we can't update a mapping while in nonce echoing  
mode. But let me think about it.

> Let me add something. What happens in the presence of Map-resolver  
> that cache the entries? (as proposed in the lisp-ms-01 draft)

It was suggested. We don't cache in the map-resolver in the code. If  
you cache anywhere on the ALT you have a even harder problem updating  
mappings. We already have challenges just updating the ITRs, let alone  
everywhere else. So I say, let's leave that alone for now and focus on  
updating the ITRs.

> If you include the version number in the Map-Request, when the Map- 
> resolver receive the packet it will easily understand that it needs  
> as well to refresh its cache because a new mapping is available,  
> thus it will forward the packet to the xTR.

I'm thinking that the version number and a nonce serve the same  
purpose. The only difference the version number can show sequence of  
updates. I'm not sure that is needed but all the ITRs care about is  
the latest version. And a changing nonce can tell you that. Because  
when it stops changing, the ETR has conveyed the latest information.

Think about that for a bit.

> How to do the same with the SMR bit?

The SMR-bit says use the nonce as a version number. We don't say that  
explicitly in the spec, but that's how it is used.

> I do not think that keeping trace of all the Map-resolvers that  
> cached the mapping is a feasible way.

Oh agree with you there.

>> For other map-cache entries where the LRU is small, it *does not  
>> set the SMR-bit* for those sites.
>> (5) The packet with the SMR-bit set has nonce value <foobar>.
>> (6) Site B sees the SMR-bit when decapsulating data and tells  
>> control plane to send a Map-Request with the same nonce value  
>> <foobar>.
>> (7) Site A returns a Map-Reply with nonce value <foobar>.
>> (8) Site B is updated.
>>
>> A 3 packet exchange where the first packet traversal piggybacks on  
>> data. The Site A ITR can control the number of places it receives  
>> Map-Requests by deciding which map-cache entries to SMR.
>
> If you really want you can do the same with versioning.
>
>>
>>
>>> lost. Conversely, if the sender sets the bit on a sequence of  
>>> packets, then the receiver has to figure out whether the  
>>> successive indications are for the same change or different changes.
>>
>> Understand. But a new nonce value from Site A can tell Site B to  
>> rerequest.
>
> What if we call this new nonce a version number? ;-)

Ha ha, we think alike.  ;-)  But as you can see from above the nonce  
is already a version number. ;-)

>> That is only going to happen if the changes are on the order of  
>> milliseconds. That is, within the trip-delay of the 3 packet  
>> exchange.
>>
>>> One could, of course, treat the single bit as a two-state wrapping  
>>> counter.  That would address the problem above.  However, if there  
>>> are two successive changes, that would look like no change at all.
>>
>> Interesting. So you say the bit is a counter with 2 values.
>>
>>> This is the question the versioning document seems to be looking  
>>> at in trying to decide how big the sequence number needs to be.   
>>> But I find the reasoning misleading.  Either there is active  
>>> communication, or there isn't.  If there isn't, then timeouts on  
>>> the mapping itself will prompt new
>>
>> Assuming time-outs are short.
>>
>> The default we have in the implementation right now is 24 hours.
>
> Just for clarity. With versioning there is no change in the timeouts.

Same with the SMR mechanism. If you use SMRs you don't need clock- 
sweep. Clock-sweep is there as an operational technique and SMRs/map- 
versioning are protocol techniques.

We wanted to crawl before we walk and hence the reason for specing  
clock-seep. Plus, it works well for DNS updates when your expectations  
are that the updates will occur tomorrow and not today.

>>> queries.  And, the rate that matters is how often changes take  
>>> place.  As long as the product of the rate-of-change and the  
>>> supported idle-time for simplified detection, is less than the  
>>> wrap, then we are fine.
>
> This is exactly what we were trying to argue in the draft.

We think the rate of updates is going to be small. If in fact, the  
rate of change would be really high as in a mobile-node moving. Like  
maybe when 2 mobile-nodes are moving around quickly and talking to  
each other, when they move, they could clear their cache. That would  
cause things to get fixed (i.e. each would get the new locators).

So in the stationary cases, we think the rate wouldn't be nearly as  
high.

Dino

>>> SO I suspect that if we want to go with a sequence number type  
>>> behavior, we probably need more than 1 bit, but fewer than 16 (I  
>>> end up at 8 myself.)
>>
>> Good assertion and conclusion Joel. Agree.
>>
>>> However, I think the question of how many bits to use is secondary  
>>> to the question of which conceptual mechanism we want to have.
>>
>> Right.
>
> Agree
>
> Luigi
>
>
>>
>>
>>> (Side note: A flapping xTR should be rapidly taken out of  
>>> service.  O&M problem, not a base protocol issue.)
>>
>> Right, agree.
>>
>> Dino
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Yours,
>>> Joel
>>>
>>> Dino Farinacci wrote:
>>>>> - each mapping has a version number and any change in the  
>>>>> mapping causes
>>>>> a change of version number. The ITR places in the header of data
>>>>> encapsulated packets the version number of its mapping and the  
>>>>> version
>>>>> number of the mapping of the destination prefix that it knows. By
>>>>> looking at the version number found in the received data  
>>>>> encapsulated
>>>>> packets, it can check whether the mapping has changed and send a
>>>>> Map-Request if a change has been detected to retrieve the new  
>>>>> mapping
>>>> I plan to reply to Luigi's email but have a quick reply for this  
>>>> point.
>>>> If the version numbers are used to simply identify a change and  
>>>> prompt a Map-Request, then why can't a single bit convey the same  
>>>> thing?
>>>> The fact that version numbers exist would convey that multiple  
>>>> mapping versions are allowed to exist. I am pretty sure that is  
>>>> not a good idea and creates other complexities. With a single  
>>>> bit, you indicate that the latest state is what is important to  
>>>> cache rather than dealing with intermediate states.
>>>> Dino
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> lisp mailing list
>>>> lisp@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lisp
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> lisp mailing list
>>> lisp@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lisp
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> lisp mailing list
>> lisp@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lisp
>


From dino@cisco.com  Sat Jun 13 11:10:21 2009
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From: Dino Farinacci <dino@cisco.com>
To: Luigi Iannone <luigi@net.t-labs.tu-berlin.de>
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Cc: Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be, lisp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [lisp] Map-Versioning
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> Because a single bit doesn't tell you if the change is new compared  
> to the actual mapping you have or is a duplicate of you last update.

A single bit tells you the same thing as comparing version numbers.  
Plus the ITR doesn't have to store yet another piece of state to know  
what the last version number was the ETR told it.

The nonce will already be stored in the ITR so you can leverage that.

> Assume you receive a packet from X with the SMR bit set, you send a  
> Map-Request, then you receive another packet from X with the SMR bit  
> set, is this another change? or just the same like the first packet?

It is another change if the nonce is different.

> You can answer that you have rate limitation and you will ignore SMR  
> bit from X for a certain time. Unless this time is very large (which  
> is not a good in the case your Map-request is lost) you have no  
> guarantee of not receiving a packet with the SMR bit set actually  
> referring to the same mapping.
>
> With versioning this ambiguity does not exist anymore.

There is a 3-way handshake. Here is the scenario again. I am an ETR,  
you are in ITR. I want to update you. This is how it goes:

(1) I set SMR-bit with nonce value 17.
(2) You decap data-packet and send me a Map-Request with nonce 17.
(3) I send a Map-Reply with nonce 17.

If the Map-Request is not answered, you retransmit at the rate-limit  
interval. That covers the case when either the Map-Request or Map- 
Reply gets lost.

If during this time, I had *another* mapping change. I would send you  
data packets with nonce value 12 (notice a different value so it  
doesn't matter if the value is larger or smaller than the previous  
nonce) and the SMR-bit set. You can send me a Map-Request now with  
nonce value 12 and when I reply you know which one it is for (12 and  
not 17).

If I get a Map-Request for 17 and know that I want to update you with  
12, I still send you a Map-Reply with nonce value 12. You get it and  
see that you have been requesting 17 but the reply has 12 in it.

At this point you could be confused (not Luigi, he is never confused,  
but the ITR is confused), but since the lastest SMR packet had 12, you  
*know* the Map-Reply for 12 is the latest.

If packets are sent out of sequence, the Map-Reply is always dominate  
in all this. The last Map-Reply you get is always the latest.

Now we can keep the header at 8 bytes and still have versioning. What  
do you think?

Dino



From hartmans@mit.edu  Mon Jun 15 07:03:20 2009
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Subject: Re: [lisp] Map-Versioning
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>>>>> "Dino" == Dino Farinacci <dino@cisco.com> writes:
    >> Assume you receive a packet from X with the SMR bit set, you
    >> send a Map-Request, then you receive another packet from X with
    >> the SMR bit set, is this another change? or just the same like
    >> the first packet?

    Dino> It is another change if the nonce is different.

Speaking as an individual, not the chair, can we get the spec to say this clearly?

From dino@cisco.com  Mon Jun 15 08:13:14 2009
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Cc: Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be, lisp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [lisp] Map-Versioning
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> Speaking as an individual, not the chair, can we get the spec to say  
> this clearly?

Yes, but end of week.

Dino


From bortzmeyer@nic.fr  Tue Jun 16 02:02:18 2009
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Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 10:56:36 +0200
From: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>
To: lisp@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [lisp] I-D Action:draft-farinacci-lisp-lig-01.txt
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On Thu, May 07, 2009 at 11:45:01AM -0700,
 Internet-Drafts@ietf.org <Internet-Drafts@ietf.org> wrote 
 a message of 49 lines which said:

> 	Title           : LISP Internet Groper (LIG)

>   The public domain implementation of lig is available at
>   sourceforge.net.

Where on Sourceforge? Querying 'lig' on the site yields three
non-related projects. Querying 'lisp' is not realistic :-)

From dmm@1-4-5.net  Tue Jun 16 06:54:12 2009
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Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 06:53:25 -0700
From: David Meyer <dmm@1-4-5.net>
To: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>
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Subject: Re: [lisp] I-D Action:draft-farinacci-lisp-lig-01.txt
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On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 10:56:36AM +0200, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote:
> On Thu, May 07, 2009 at 11:45:01AM -0700,
>  Internet-Drafts@ietf.org <Internet-Drafts@ietf.org> wrote=20
>  a message of 49 lines which said:
>=20
> > 	Title           : LISP Internet Groper (LIG)
>=20
> >   The public domain implementation of lig is available at
> >   sourceforge.net.
>=20
> Where on Sourceforge? Querying 'lig' on the site yields three
> non-related projects. Querying 'lisp' is not realistic :-)

	My bad. I haven't gotten it done yet. I can provide my
	code to you if you want it...Let me know.

	Dave

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From christian.vogt@ericsson.com  Wed Jun 17 14:15:08 2009
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From: Christian Vogt <christian.vogt@ericsson.com>
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Subject: Re: [lisp] rDNS with new "RLOC RR"
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Marshall -

New dependencies for routing, training of administrative personnel,
security -- all these are indeed important issues to take into account
when designing a mapping system.  Nonetheless, I don't see why a
DNS-based mapping system would be more susceptible to those issues than
any other type of mapping system -- in particular if a separate DNS
infrastructure with low TTLs was used.

- Christian



On Jun 12, 2009, Marshall Eubanks wrote:

> Speaking as a small company person, I suspect that DNS is not the  
> right
> instrument for this. Just from my experience (so, anecdotal, not
> synoptic) :
>
> - I would just observe that most of the small multi-homed companies I
>   have dealt with use a hosting company for their DNS. If that DNS was
>   doing routing as well, that would probably have to change. That
>   would mean you would have to train / hire someone to do DNS.
>
>   Companies only have so much bandwidth to think about these sorts of
>   things, and would not appreciate being forced to change the way they
>   did their name service.
>
> - In my experience small companies are more tolerant of short DNS
>   outages than short routing outages. (Existing flows are not
>   interrupted by the first, but are by the second.) - In my experience
>   it is common for them not to use DNS at all for mission critical
>   interactions. (This is of course connected with the previous point.)
>   - In my experience DNS TTLs are typically set fairly long, except
>   for planned changes. This means that DNS changes typically take the
>   form
>
>   - lower the ttl
>   - wait for old ttls to time out
>   - make the change
>   - test
>   - raise the ttl
>
>   It would scare me if routing was required to undergo the same
>   multi-day cycle to make changes. (Would you buy a router that  
> promised
>   multi-day BGP convergence times ?)
>
> - DNS is subject to DOS and DDOS type attacks. These can really  
> hammer a
>   DNS server. I don't think that it would be a good idea if routing
>   was subject to the same types of attacks.
>
> Now, I am sure that most of the above could be engineered around,  
> but I
> do think that such considerations mean that there would be push back
> from small companies (a logical constituency for LISP IMO) if DNS was
> part of the soup.
>
> Regards Marshall




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--Apple-Mail-1-678132608--

From luigi@net.t-labs.tu-berlin.de  Sat Jun 20 07:36:44 2009
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From: Luigi Iannone <luigi@net.t-labs.tu-berlin.de>
To: Dino Farinacci <dino@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [lisp] Map-Versioning
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Hi All,

my comments are inline.


On Jun 13, 2009, at 20:00 , Dino Farinacci wrote:

> Sorry for the long delay. See my responses inline.
>
>> On Jun 3, 2009, at 18:44 , Dino Farinacci wrote:
>>
>>>> With one bit of state, in the event of even a single packet loss  
>>>> there is ambiguity about what the bit means.  (If the sender sets  
>>>> the bit on only one packet, and that packet gets lost, the bit  
>>>> has gotten
>>>
>>> I said 1 bit. And didn't not mean that 1 packet is sent. The bit  
>>> can stay set in a small packet train of  packets. It works like  
>>> this:
>>>
>>> (1) Site A has a mapping database change.
>>> (2) Site A is currently talking to Site B.
>>> (3) Site A wants to update B's map-cache for itself.
>>> (4) Site A sets the SMR bit in a sequence of packets to Site B.
>>
>> As far as I understand, at this point you need to keep track of the  
>> fact that B has asked for new mapping in order to reset the SMR bit.
>
> You know that when B sends a Map-Request with the nonce from the  
> data packet with the SMR-bit. That was our intent.
>

How things will go if the Map-Reply to B get dropped somewhere?

Compared to versioning, with your solution you have one additional  
interaction between the control plane and the data plane.

SMR bit is something that you set in the data plane in order to be  
part of the LISP header. Then, the control plane waits for the Map- 
Request from B, once it got that it has to reset the SMR bit in the  
data plane. Isn't it the case?

With versioning you just update the data plane in order to put the new  
version in the LISP header and that's all.


>> With versioning you do not need this. You just put a new version  
>> number, B will understand that has to send a map-request and no  
>> further actions are needed from A.
>
> Understand. But I don't want to carry version numbers is each and  
> every packet. Since mappings down change at data packet delivery  
> granularity, you don't need that information in the data packet.
>
> I was thinking of overloading the nonce field as you suggested in  
> your presentation. But if we are going to use the nonces for inline  
> data-path liveness, then we can't update a mapping while in nonce  
> echoing mode. But let me think about it.

May be I was not clear, sorry. Our intention is not to enlarge the  
LISP header but rather to overload part of it. Actually, we were  
thinking about the reach-bits, not the nonce.

Let me try to explain why by describing how we implemented it in  
OpenLISP:

Assuming I am an OpenLISP ETR, my data plane receives a LISP packet  
that has to be decapsulated and carries a set a reach-bits that do not  
match what I have in the cache.

For security reasons, in OpenLISP, the data plane reach-bits are not  
updated, but through the mapping sockets the control plane is informed  
that for a specific mapping a new set of reach-bits have been received  
(the mapping and the new reach-bits are sent along with the message).

Now, as you suggested in previous discussions, the OpenLISP control  
plane sends a Map-Request in order to verify the information received  
from the data plane.

Hopefully, the OpenLISP ETR will receive a Map-Reply containing reach- 
bits, and you can have three cases:

a) Reach-bits from the Map-Reply match reach-bits received in the LISP  
packet (this is the good case).
b) Reach-bits from the Map-Reply are unchanged from what was in the  
cache but do not match the reach-bits received in the LISP packet.  
(you cannot exclude this case).
c) Reach-bits from the Map-Reply are different from the reach-bits  
that I have in the cache and are different from the reach-bits  
received in the LISP packet (again you cannot exclude this case).

In all of the three cases: a), b) and c) OpenLISP trusts the Mapping  
system because of some form of authentication used (e.g. like for the  
actual implementation of the mapping server), thus the cache is  
updated with the reach-bits of the Map-Reply (this looks like the most  
reasonable thing to do).

In all of the three cases OpenLISP does not care of which specific bit  
has changed, which means that reach-bits have a loose meaning. When an  
ETR receives a no matching reach-bit set it does not matter which bit  
has actually changed, the ETR queries the mapping system and trust  
what it gets.

Following this reasoning, instead of using reach-bits, you put version  
number which just tells the ETR "look, something has changed you need  
to query the mapping system". Whether the versioning has changed from  
3456 to 3457, or from 69 to 70, it does not matter for the ETR. It  
just needs to query the mapping system.

Having that said, in the draft it is explained the benefits introduced  
by putting in the LISP header two version numbers, the one of the  
mapping used to select the source RLOC and the one of the mapping used  
to select the destination RLOC.


Sorry, I know this is quite a long explanation, but I hope that it  
helps in clarifying the discussion.



>
>> Let me add something. What happens in the presence of Map-resolver  
>> that cache the entries? (as proposed in the lisp-ms-01 draft)
>
> It was suggested. We don't cache in the map-resolver in the code. If  
> you cache anywhere on the ALT you have a even harder problem  
> updating mappings. We already have challenges just updating the  
> ITRs, let alone everywhere else. So I say, let's leave that alone  
> for now and focus on updating the ITRs.

Right.
But with versioning caching is possible (but only if the version  
number is included in the Map-Request).
Further, as I explained in the presentation in the last IETF,  
versioning helps in case of asymmetric traffic flows, where traffic  
from A to B uses a pair of xTRs that are totally different from the  
xTRs used for the traffic from B to A.


[snip]
>
>>> That is only going to happen if the changes are on the order of  
>>> milliseconds. That is, within the trip-delay of the 3 packet  
>>> exchange.
>>>
>>>> One could, of course, treat the single bit as a two-state  
>>>> wrapping counter.  That would address the problem above.   
>>>> However, if there are two successive changes, that would look  
>>>> like no change at all.
>>>
>>> Interesting. So you say the bit is a counter with 2 values.
>>>
>>>> This is the question the versioning document seems to be looking  
>>>> at in trying to decide how big the sequence number needs to be.   
>>>> But I find the reasoning misleading.  Either there is active  
>>>> communication, or there isn't.  If there isn't, then timeouts on  
>>>> the mapping itself will prompt new
>>>
>>> Assuming time-outs are short.
>>>
>>> The default we have in the implementation right now is 24 hours.
>>
>> Just for clarity. With versioning there is no change in the timeouts.
>
> Same with the SMR mechanism. If you use SMRs you don't need clock- 
> sweep. Clock-sweep is there as an operational technique and SMRs/map- 
> versioning are protocol techniques.
>

You still need clock-sweep for reach-bit when you want to compact  
them. Right?

Anyway, I have nothing against the clock-sweep. It can be still useful.

[snip]


Luigi
--Apple-Mail-44-913439794
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	charset=US-ASCII
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<html><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Hi All,<div><br></div><div>my =
comments are inline.</div><div><br><div><br></div><div><div><div>On Jun =
13, 2009, at 20:00 , Dino Farinacci wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>Sorry =
for the long delay. See my responses inline.<br><br><blockquote =
type=3D"cite">On Jun 3, 2009, at 18:44 , Dino Farinacci =
wrote:<br></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite">With one bit of state, in the =
event of even a single packet loss there is ambiguity about what the bit =
means. &nbsp;(If the sender sets the bit on only one packet, and that =
packet gets lost, the bit has =
gotten<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite">I said 1 bit. And didn't not =
mean that 1 packet is sent. The bit can stay set in a small packet train =
of &nbsp;packets. It works like =
this:<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite">(1) Site A has a mapping =
database change.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite">(2) Site A is currently talking =
to Site B.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite">(3) Site A wants to update B's =
map-cache for itself.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite">(4) Site A sets the SMR bit in a =
sequence of packets to Site B.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite">As far as I =
understand, at this point you need to keep track of the fact that B has =
asked for new mapping in order to reset the SMR =
bit.<br></blockquote><br>You know that when B sends a Map-Request with =
the nonce from the data packet with the SMR-bit. That was our =
intent.<br><br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>How things will go =
if the Map-Reply to B get dropped =
somewhere?</div><div><br></div><div>Compared to versioning, with your =
solution you have one additional interaction between the control plane =
and the data plane.</div><div><br></div><div>SMR bit is something that =
you set in the data plane in order to be part of the LISP header. Then, =
the control plane waits for the Map-Request from B, once it got that it =
has to reset the SMR bit in the data plane. Isn't it the =
case?</div><div><br></div><div>With versioning you just update the data =
plane in order to put the new version in the LISP header and that's =
all.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><br><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div><blockquote type=3D"cite">With versioning you do not =
need this. You just put a new version number, B will understand that has =
to send a map-request and no further actions are needed from =
A.<br></blockquote><br>Understand. But I don't want to carry version =
numbers is each and every packet. Since mappings down change at data =
packet delivery granularity, you don't need that information in the data =
packet.<br><br>I was thinking of overloading the nonce field as you =
suggested in your presentation. But if we are going to use the nonces =
for inline data-path liveness, then we can't update a mapping while in =
nonce echoing mode. But let me think about =
it.<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>May be I was not clear, =
sorry. Our intention is not to enlarge the LISP header but rather to =
overload part of it. Actually, we were thinking about the reach-bits, =
not the nonce.</div><div><br></div><div>Let me try to explain why by =
describing how we implemented it in =
OpenLISP:</div><div><br></div><div>Assuming I am an OpenLISP ETR, my =
data plane receives a LISP packet that has to be decapsulated and =
carries a set a reach-bits that do not match what I have in the =
cache.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>For security reasons, in OpenLISP, =
the data plane reach-bits are not updated, but through the mapping =
sockets the control plane is informed that for a specific mapping a new =
set of reach-bits have been received (the mapping and the new reach-bits =
are sent along with the message).</div><div><br></div><div>Now, as you =
suggested in previous discussions, the OpenLISP control plane sends a =
Map-Request in order to verify the information received from the data =
plane.</div><div><br></div><div>Hopefully, the OpenLISP ETR will receive =
a Map-Reply containing reach-bits, and you can have three =
cases:</div><div><br></div><div>a) Reach-bits from the Map-Reply match =
reach-bits received in the LISP packet (this is the good =
case).</div><div>b) Reach-bits from the Map-Reply are unchanged from =
what was in the cache but do not match the reach-bits received in the =
LISP packet. (you cannot exclude this case).</div><div>c) Reach-bits =
from the Map-Reply are different from the reach-bits that I have in the =
cache and are different from the reach-bits received in the LISP packet =
(again you cannot exclude this case).</div><div><br></div><div>In all of =
the three cases: a), b) and c) OpenLISP trusts the Mapping system =
because of some form of authentication used (e.g. like for the actual =
implementation of the mapping server), thus the cache is updated with =
the reach-bits of the Map-Reply (this looks like the most reasonable =
thing to do).&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>In all of the three cases =
OpenLISP does not care of which specific bit has changed, which means =
that reach-bits have a loose meaning. When an ETR receives a no matching =
reach-bit set it does not matter which bit has actually changed, the ETR =
queries the mapping system and trust what it =
gets.</div><div><br></div><div>Following this reasoning, instead of =
using reach-bits, you put version number which just tells the ETR "look, =
something has changed you need to query the mapping system". Whether the =
versioning has changed from 3456 to 3457, or from 69 to 70, it does not =
matter for the ETR. It just needs to query the mapping =
system.</div><div><br></div><div>Having that said, in the draft it is =
explained the benefits introduced by putting in the LISP header two =
version numbers, the one of the mapping used to select the source RLOC =
and the one of the mapping used to select the destination =
RLOC.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Sorry, I know this is =
quite a long explanation, but I hope that it helps in clarifying the =
discussion.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><br><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">Let me add something. =
What happens in the presence of Map-resolver that cache the entries? (as =
proposed in the lisp-ms-01 draft)<br></blockquote><br>It was suggested. =
We don't cache in the map-resolver in the code. If you cache anywhere on =
the ALT you have a even harder problem updating mappings. We already =
have challenges just updating the ITRs, let alone everywhere else. So I =
say, let's leave that alone for now and focus on updating the =
ITRs.<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Right.&nbsp;</div><div>But=
 with versioning caching is possible (but only if the version number is =
included in the Map-Request).&nbsp;</div><div>Further, as I explained in =
the presentation in the last IETF, versioning helps in case of =
asymmetric traffic flows, where traffic from A to B uses a pair of xTRs =
that are totally different from the xTRs used for the traffic from B to =
A.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div>[snip]<br><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
color=3D"#000000"><br></font><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite">That is only going to happen if the changes are on the =
order of milliseconds. That is, within the trip-delay of the 3 packet =
exchange.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite">One =
could, of course, treat the single bit as a two-state wrapping counter. =
&nbsp;That would address the problem above. &nbsp;However, if there are =
two successive changes, that would look like no change at =
all.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite">Interesting. So you say the bit =
is a counter with 2 values.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite">This =
is the question the versioning document seems to be looking at in trying =
to decide how big the sequence number needs to be. &nbsp;But I find the =
reasoning misleading. &nbsp;Either there is active communication, or =
there isn't. &nbsp;If there isn't, then timeouts on the mapping itself =
will prompt new<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite">Assuming time-outs are =
short.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite">The default we have in the =
implementation right now is 24 =
hours.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite">Just for =
clarity. With versioning there is no change in the =
timeouts.<br></blockquote><br>Same with the SMR mechanism. If you use =
SMRs you don't need clock-sweep. Clock-sweep is there as an operational =
technique and SMRs/map-versioning are protocol =
techniques.<br><br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>You still need =
clock-sweep for reach-bit when you want to compact them. =
Right?</div><div><br></div><div>Anyway, I have nothing against the =
clock-sweep. It can be still =
useful.</div><div><br></div><div>[snip]</div><div><br></div><div><br></div=
><div>Luigi</div></div></div></div></body></html>=

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From luigi@net.t-labs.tu-berlin.de  Sat Jun 20 08:03:17 2009
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Subject: Re: [lisp] Map-Versioning
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On Jun 13, 2009, at 20:10 , Dino Farinacci wrote:

>> Because a single bit doesn't tell you if the change is new compared  
>> to the actual mapping you have or is a duplicate of you last update.
>
> A single bit tells you the same thing as comparing version numbers.

Disagree. A version number can give you the information of when you  
are up to date. One single bit cannot convey the same amount of  
information unless you consider it as a 1-bit counter as suggested by  
Joel (even if then you can have wrap-around issues).
But this is not the case for the SMR bit.

> Plus the ITR doesn't have to store yet another piece of state to  
> know what the last version number was the ETR told it.
>
> The nonce will already be stored in the ITR so you can leverage that.
>

As I explained in a previous mail, our idea is to overload some part  
of the LISP header, not to extend it to more than 8 bytes, thus we are  
not adding any state here.



>> Assume you receive a packet from X with the SMR bit set, you send a  
>> Map-Request, then you receive another packet from X with the SMR  
>> bit set, is this another change? or just the same like the first  
>> packet?
>
> It is another change if the nonce is different.
>
>> You can answer that you have rate limitation and you will ignore  
>> SMR bit from X for a certain time. Unless this time is very large  
>> (which is not a good in the case your Map-request is lost) you have  
>> no guarantee of not receiving a packet with the SMR bit set  
>> actually referring to the same mapping.
>>
>> With versioning this ambiguity does not exist anymore.
>
> There is a 3-way handshake. Here is the scenario again. I am an ETR,  
> you are in ITR. I want to update you. This is how it goes:
>
> (1) I set SMR-bit with nonce value 17.
> (2) You decap data-packet and send me a Map-Request with nonce 17.

Since I am decapsulating I assume I am the ETR and you  the ITR ;-)

> (3) I send a Map-Reply with nonce 17.
>
> If the Map-Request is not answered, you retransmit at the rate-limit  
> interval. That covers the case when either the Map-Request or Map- 
> Reply gets lost.
>

Correct me if I am wrong: when you (ITR) receive my (ETR) Map-Request,  
you reset the SMR-bit, while I will keep sending (rate-limited) Map- 
Request until I receive a Map-Reply. Is that right?


> If during this time, I had *another* mapping change. I would send  
> you data packets with nonce value 12 (notice a different value so it  
> doesn't matter if the value is larger or smaller than the previous  
> nonce) and the SMR-bit set. You can send me a Map-Request now with  
> nonce value 12 and when I reply you know which one it is for (12 and  
> not 17).
>
> If I get a Map-Request for 17 and know that I want to update you  
> with 12, I still send you a Map-Reply with nonce value 12. You get  
> it and see that you have been requesting 17 but the reply has 12 in  
> it.
>
> At this point you could be confused (not Luigi, he is never  
> confused, but the ITR is confused), but since the lastest SMR packet  
> had 12, you *know* the Map-Reply for 12 is the latest.
>
> If packets are sent out of sequence, the Map-Reply is always  
> dominate in all this. The last Map-Reply you get is always the latest.
>

What will the ETR (Luigi, which sometimes gets confused ;-)) do if it  
receives a packet with a different nonce but no SMR bit set?


> Now we can keep the header at 8 bytes and still have versioning.  
> What do you think?
>

Yes, but let me push things a bit .. ;-)
What about splitting the nonce_version number in two parts as  
suggested in our draft? This is very helpful in case of unidirectional  
traffic.

Cheers

Luigi




> Dino
>
>


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<html><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><br><div><div>On Jun 13, 2009, =
at 20:10 , Dino Farinacci wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div><blockquote type=3D"cite">Because a single bit =
doesn't tell you if the change is new compared to the actual mapping you =
have or is a duplicate of you last update.<br></blockquote><br>A single =
bit tells you the same thing as comparing version =
numbers.</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Disagree. A version =
number can give you the information of when you are up to date. One =
single bit cannot convey the same amount of information unless you =
consider it as a 1-bit counter as suggested by Joel (even if then you =
can have wrap-around issues).&nbsp;</div><div>But this is not the case =
for the SMR bit.</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div> Plus the ITR =
doesn't have to store yet another piece of state to know what the last =
version number was the ETR told it.<br><br>The nonce will already be =
stored in the ITR so you can leverage =
that.<br><br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>As I explained in a =
previous mail, our idea is to overload some part of the LISP header, not =
to extend it to more than 8 bytes, thus we are not adding any state =
here.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><br><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div><blockquote type=3D"cite">Assume you receive a packet =
from X with the SMR bit set, you send a Map-Request, then you receive =
another packet from X with the SMR bit set, is this another change? or =
just the same like the first packet?<br></blockquote><br>It is another =
change if the nonce is different.<br><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">You =
can answer that you have rate limitation and you will ignore SMR bit =
from X for a certain time. Unless this time is very large (which is not =
a good in the case your Map-request is lost) you have no guarantee of =
not receiving a packet with the SMR bit set actually referring to the =
same mapping.<br></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite">With versioning =
this ambiguity does not exist anymore.<br></blockquote><br>There is a =
3-way handshake. Here is the scenario again. I am an ETR, you are in =
ITR. I want to update you. This is how it goes:<br><font =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" color=3D"#000000"><font =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
color=3D"#144FAE"><br></font></font></div></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div>(1) I set SMR-bit with nonce value 17.<br>(2) You =
decap data-packet and send me a Map-Request with nonce =
17.<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Since I am decapsulating I =
assume I am the ETR and you &nbsp;the ITR ;-)</div><br><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div>(3) I send a Map-Reply with nonce 17.<br><br>If the =
Map-Request is not answered, you retransmit at the rate-limit interval. =
That covers the case when either the Map-Request or Map-Reply gets =
lost.<br><br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Correct me if I am =
wrong: when you (ITR) receive my (ETR) Map-Request, you reset the =
SMR-bit, while I will keep sending (rate-limited) Map-Request until I =
receive a Map-Reply. Is that right?</div><div><br></div><br><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div>If during this time, I had *another* mapping change. =
I would send you data packets with nonce value 12 (notice a different =
value so it doesn't matter if the value is larger or smaller than the =
previous nonce) and the SMR-bit set. You can send me a Map-Request now =
with nonce value 12 and when I reply you know which one it is for (12 =
and not 17).<br><br>If I get a Map-Request for 17 and know that I want =
to update you with 12, I still send you a Map-Reply with nonce value 12. =
You get it and see that you have been requesting 17 but the reply has 12 =
in it.<br><br>At this point you could be confused (not Luigi, he is =
never confused, but the ITR is confused), but since the lastest SMR =
packet had 12, you *know* the Map-Reply for 12 is the latest.<br><br>If =
packets are sent out of sequence, the Map-Reply is always dominate in =
all this. The last Map-Reply you get is always the =
latest.<br><br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>What will the ETR =
(Luigi, which sometimes gets confused ;-)) do if it receives a packet =
with a different nonce but no SMR bit =
set?</div><div><br></div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>Now we can =
keep the header at 8 bytes and still have versioning. What do you =
think?<br><br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Yes, but let me =
push things a bit .. ;-)</div><div>What about splitting the =
nonce_version number in two parts as suggested in our draft? This is =
very helpful in case of unidirectional =
traffic.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>Cheers</div><div><br></div><div>Lu=
igi</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><br><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div>Dino<br><br><br></div></blockquote></div><br></body></h=
tml>=

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From hartmans@mit.edu  Mon Jun 22 04:17:20 2009
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From: Sam Hartman <hartmans-ietf@mit.edu>
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 07:17:27 -0400
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Subject: [lisp] Announcing WG secretary
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Darrel and I are pleased to announce that Terry Manderson has joined
the LISP team as the WG secretary.

We're really greatful for his help.  Terry has been involved in a
number of WGs within the routing and other areas of the IETF.  He's
interested in LISP and is running one of the LISP beta routers.

We're looking forward to working with Terry and ask you to join us in
welcoming him.

From hartmans@mit.edu  Mon Jun 22 04:22:20 2009
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From: Sam Hartman <hartmans-ietf@mit.edu>
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 07:22:28 -0400
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Subject: [lisp] Call for Stockholm Agenda Items--respond by July 3 2009
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We'd like to make an open call for agenda items for discussion at the Stockholm IETF.

If you'd like to discuss something please let us know.  If you are
bringing up a new proposal then we'll make sure that it is within the
charter and are likely to ask you to submit an internet draft
describing your proposal prior to the -00 cutoff.


From hartmans@mit.edu  Mon Jun 22 04:26:13 2009
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Subject: [lisp] Adopting issue tracking policy
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None of the comments Darrel and I recieved either on list or off seem
like they require changes to the issue tracking proposal I sent out,
so we're going to go with that for now.

We did receive concerns about how much work it would be to keep the
issue number in the message subjects.  That's something we're going to
evaluate after we get some practice going forward.

I'll post the text I sent on the WIKI for easy finding, and Terry,
Darrel and I will work on setting up the tracker.  Then we'll let
everyone know that we should start with the tracker.

--Sam

From Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com  Mon Jun 22 10:57:06 2009
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Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 10:56:46 -0700
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Thread-Topic: [lisp] Map-Versioning
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References: <tsleiu3exaj.fsf@mit.edu> <4A2404D0.9080406@joelhalpern.com><4A240834.7000106@uclouvain.be> <tslws7vdgb2.fsf@mit.edu><4A87C591-F5C3-4180-8FBB-D71E65F00145@net.t-labs.tu-berlin.de><tslk53u8zsu.fsf@mit.edu> <4A25846F.4030408@uclouvain.be><FFE51CDD-F957-4B5D-88EB-210982A64935@cisco.com><13672A25-0BF0-4FC1-B301-D3B1B91A6BD1@net.t-labs.tu-berlin.de><7CDAF1C4-35F9-46EC-B035-B870D0A076C6@cisco.com> <4C623B66-475D-453B-A1F4-F9AA508CDD24@net.t-labs.tu-berlin.de>
From: "Templin, Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>
To: "Luigi Iannone" <luigi@net.t-labs.tu-berlin.de>, "Dino Farinacci" <dino@cisco.com>
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Cc: Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be, lisp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [lisp] Map-Versioning
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Luigi,

=20

Speaking purely hypothetically (because I'm not yet convinced versioning

is needed), how many bits do you think you would need for this? Would

somewhere around 4 be sufficient?

=20

Thanks - Fred

fred.l.templin@boeing.com

=20

________________________________

From: Luigi Iannone [mailto:luigi@net.t-labs.tu-berlin.de]=20
Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2009 8:03 AM
To: Dino Farinacci
Cc: Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be; lisp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [lisp] Map-Versioning

=20

=20

On Jun 13, 2009, at 20:10 , Dino Farinacci wrote:





	Because a single bit doesn't tell you if the change is new
compared to the actual mapping you have or is a duplicate of you last
update.


A single bit tells you the same thing as comparing version numbers.

=20

Disagree. A version number can give you the information of when you are
up to date. One single bit cannot convey the same amount of information
unless you consider it as a 1-bit counter as suggested by Joel (even if
then you can have wrap-around issues).=20

But this is not the case for the SMR bit.





Plus the ITR doesn't have to store yet another piece of state to know
what the last version number was the ETR told it.

The nonce will already be stored in the ITR so you can leverage that.

=20

As I explained in a previous mail, our idea is to overload some part of
the LISP header, not to extend it to more than 8 bytes, thus we are not
adding any state here.

=20

=20





	Assume you receive a packet from X with the SMR bit set, you
send a Map-Request, then you receive another packet from X with the SMR
bit set, is this another change? or just the same like the first packet?


It is another change if the nonce is different.




You can answer that you have rate limitation and you will ignore SMR bit
from X for a certain time. Unless this time is very large (which is not
a good in the case your Map-request is lost) you have no guarantee of
not receiving a packet with the SMR bit set actually referring to the
same mapping.

	=20

	With versioning this ambiguity does not exist anymore.


There is a 3-way handshake. Here is the scenario again. I am an ETR, you
are in ITR. I want to update you. This is how it goes:

	(1) I set SMR-bit with nonce value 17.
	(2) You decap data-packet and send me a Map-Request with nonce
17.

=20

Since I am decapsulating I assume I am the ETR and you  the ITR ;-)





(3) I send a Map-Reply with nonce 17.

If the Map-Request is not answered, you retransmit at the rate-limit
interval. That covers the case when either the Map-Request or Map-Reply
gets lost.

=20

Correct me if I am wrong: when you (ITR) receive my (ETR) Map-Request,
you reset the SMR-bit, while I will keep sending (rate-limited)
Map-Request until I receive a Map-Reply. Is that right?

=20





If during this time, I had *another* mapping change. I would send you
data packets with nonce value 12 (notice a different value so it doesn't
matter if the value is larger or smaller than the previous nonce) and
the SMR-bit set. You can send me a Map-Request now with nonce value 12
and when I reply you know which one it is for (12 and not 17).

If I get a Map-Request for 17 and know that I want to update you with
12, I still send you a Map-Reply with nonce value 12. You get it and see
that you have been requesting 17 but the reply has 12 in it.

At this point you could be confused (not Luigi, he is never confused,
but the ITR is confused), but since the lastest SMR packet had 12, you
*know* the Map-Reply for 12 is the latest.

If packets are sent out of sequence, the Map-Reply is always dominate in
all this. The last Map-Reply you get is always the latest.

=20

What will the ETR (Luigi, which sometimes gets confused ;-)) do if it
receives a packet with a different nonce but no SMR bit set?

=20





Now we can keep the header at 8 bytes and still have versioning. What do
you think?

=20

Yes, but let me push things a bit .. ;-)

What about splitting the nonce_version number in two parts as suggested
in our draft? This is very helpful in case of unidirectional traffic.=20

=20

Cheers

=20

Luigi

=20

=20

=20





Dino



=20


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<body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple style=3D'word-wrap: =
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-webkit-nbsp-mode: space;-webkit-line-break: after-white-space'>

<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Luigi,</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Speaking purely hypothetically =
(because I&#8217;m
not yet convinced versioning</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>is needed), how many bits do you =
think you
would need for this? Would</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>somewhere around 4 be =
sufficient?</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Thanks &#8211; =
Fred</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>fred.l.templin@boeing.com</span></fo=
nt></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<div style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in =
0in 4.0pt'>

<div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> Luigi =
Iannone
[mailto:luigi@net.t-labs.tu-berlin.de] <br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Saturday, June 20, =
2009 8:03
AM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> Dino Farinacci<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b>
Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be; lisp@ietf.org<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [lisp] =
Map-Versioning</span></font></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

<div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>On Jun 13, 2009, at 20:10 , Dino Farinacci =
wrote:</span></font></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
<br>
</span></font></p>

<div>

<blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=3Dcite>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Because a single bit doesn't tell you if the change is new =
compared to
the actual mapping you have or is a duplicate of you last =
update.</span></font></p>

</blockquote>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
A single bit tells you the same thing as comparing version =
numbers.</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Disagree. A version number can give you the information of when =
you are
up to date. One single bit cannot convey the same amount of information =
unless
you consider it as a 1-bit counter as suggested by Joel (even if then =
you can
have wrap-around issues).&nbsp;</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>But this is not the case for the SMR bit.</span></font></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
<br>
</span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Plus the ITR =
doesn't have
to store yet another piece of state to know what the last version number =
was
the ETR told it.<br>
<br>
The nonce will already be stored in the ITR so you can leverage =
that.</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>As I explained in a previous mail, our idea is to overload some =
part of
the LISP header, not to extend it to more than 8 bytes, thus we are not =
adding
any state here.</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
<br>
</span></font></p>

<div>

<blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=3Dcite>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Assume you receive a packet from X with the SMR bit set, you =
send a
Map-Request, then you receive another packet from X with the SMR bit =
set, is
this another change? or just the same like the first =
packet?</span></font></p>

</blockquote>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
It is another change if the nonce is different.<br>
<br>
<br>
</span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>You can answer that you have rate limitation and you will ignore =
SMR
bit from X for a certain time. Unless this time is very large (which is =
not a
good in the case your Map-request is lost) you have no guarantee of not
receiving a packet with the SMR bit set actually referring to the same =
mapping.</span></font></p>

<blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=3Dcite>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

</blockquote>

<blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=3Dcite>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>With versioning this ambiguity does not exist =
anymore.</span></font></p>

</blockquote>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><br>
There is a 3-way handshake. Here is the scenario again. I am an ETR, you =
are in
ITR. I want to update you. This is how it goes:</span></font></p>

</div>

<blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=3Dcite>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>(1) I set SMR-bit with nonce value 17.<br>
(2) You decap data-packet and send me a Map-Request with nonce =
17.</span></font></p>

</div>

</blockquote>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Since I am decapsulating I assume I am the ETR and you &nbsp;the =
ITR
;-)</span></font></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
<br>
</span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>(3) I send a =
Map-Reply
with nonce 17.<br>
<br>
If the Map-Request is not answered, you retransmit at the rate-limit =
interval.
That covers the case when either the Map-Request or Map-Reply gets =
lost.</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Correct me if I am wrong: when you (ITR) receive my (ETR) =
Map-Request,
you reset the SMR-bit, while I will keep sending (rate-limited) =
Map-Request
until I receive a Map-Reply. Is that right?</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
<br>
</span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>If during this =
time, I
had *another* mapping change. I would send you data packets with nonce =
value 12
(notice a different value so it doesn't matter if the value is larger or
smaller than the previous nonce) and the SMR-bit set. You can send me a =
Map-Request
now with nonce value 12 and when I reply you know which one it is for =
(12 and
not 17).<br>
<br>
If I get a Map-Request for 17 and know that I want to update you with =
12, I
still send you a Map-Reply with nonce value 12. You get it and see that =
you
have been requesting 17 but the reply has 12 in it.<br>
<br>
At this point you could be confused (not Luigi, he is never confused, =
but the
ITR is confused), but since the lastest SMR packet had 12, you *know* =
the
Map-Reply for 12 is the latest.<br>
<br>
If packets are sent out of sequence, the Map-Reply is always dominate in =
all
this. The last Map-Reply you get is always the latest.</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>What will the ETR (Luigi, which sometimes gets confused ;-)) do =
if it
receives a packet with a different nonce but no SMR bit =
set?</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
<br>
</span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Now we can =
keep the
header at 8 bytes and still have versioning. What do you =
think?</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Yes, but let me push things a bit .. ;-)</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>What about splitting the nonce_version number in two parts as =
suggested
in our draft? This is very helpful in case of unidirectional =
traffic.&nbsp;</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Cheers</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Luigi</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
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<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Dino<br>
<br>
</span></font></p>

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From hartmans@mit.edu  Mon Jun 22 11:35:02 2009
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To: "Templin\, Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>
References: <tsleiu3exaj.fsf@mit.edu> <4A2404D0.9080406@joelhalpern.com> <4A240834.7000106@uclouvain.be> <tslws7vdgb2.fsf@mit.edu> <4A87C591-F5C3-4180-8FBB-D71E65F00145@net.t-labs.tu-berlin.de> <tslk53u8zsu.fsf@mit.edu> <4A25846F.4030408@uclouvain.be> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105FF997C@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <tslfxeh72ts.fsf@mit.edu> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A10603D265@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A10603D2D8@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A10603D5B2@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <tslab4hmt0p.fsf_-_@mit.edu> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A1060B5087@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com>
From: Sam Hartman <hartmans-ietf@mit.edu>
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 14:35:13 -0400
In-Reply-To: <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A1060B5087@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> (Fred L. Templin's message of "Fri\, 12 Jun 2009 15\:38\:06 -0700")
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Subject: Re: [lisp] [#1] Path MTU concerns and proposed resolutions [respond byJune 13]
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The chairs requested indications of support by June 12.  Besides
Fred's initial indication of support, no one else came forward
supporting this issue.  As such, the chairs do not see the necessary
support to adopt these changes and this issue is closed.

From dino@cisco.com  Mon Jun 22 12:00:30 2009
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From: Dino Farinacci <dino@cisco.com>
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Cc: Olivier.Bonaventure@uclouvain.be, lisp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [lisp] Map-Versioning
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> Yes, but let me push things a bit .. ;-)
> What about splitting the nonce_version number in two parts as  
> suggested in our draft? This is very helpful in case of  
> unidirectional traffic.

Let's focus on this part for now. Which I think is an important issue.  
Let's frame the situation up as we have site A sending packets to site  
B. The traffic is unidirectional to home in on your point.

Let's call the ITRs at site A ITR "a" and ITR "a'" and "b" and "b'"  
are the ETRs at site B. Even if a or a' send to b or b', those LISP  
routers at site B don't have any map-cache state for site A.

When site B wants to update it's mapping database entries, neither b  
or b' will SMR because it thinks it's not talking to anyone. Plus, it  
has no offered data to send them, so it can't send an SMR-bit.

You like the idea of putting two version numbers in so Site A can tell  
Site B what version of B's mappings it is using.

Tell me if I am ac curatively describing your position?

... (pause and think before continuing below)

If the LISP routers at site B see that anyone is out of date, they  
would need to send something to the ITRs of site A. Well we don't want  
the LISP routers of site B to send a Map-Reply because that could be  
unsolicited. We would want the ITRs to send a Map-Request over the  
mapping database infrastructure to get updated. But we want them to do  
it at the rate that site B can handle the Map-Request load.

So one solution is for the site B LISP routers to send a Map-Request  
to site A with the SMR-bit set. Which in turn has the site A LISP  
routers send a Map-Request. This would fall into the current design.

... (pause and think before continuing below)

But while we have been experimenting with RLOC reachability liveness,  
you might think of an option where site A LISP routers might be  
sending Map-Requests to site B routers to make sure the locators the  
site A routers are using are up and operational. Well depending on how  
often this is done, the keepalive replies which are in the form of Map- 
Replies would have more up to date mapping data.

All I'm trying to say here is that maybe using the basic Map-Request  
and Map-Reply machinery we can solve liveness and fast mapping updates  
at the same time.

Just thinking out loud,
Dino




From hartmans@mit.edu  Mon Jun 22 13:11:13 2009
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From: Sam Hartman <hartmans-ietf@mit.edu>
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Subject: [lisp] Security work for Stockholm
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After the SF IETF meeting, a group of people got together to discuss
security of LISP and to begin work hopefully leading towards progress
on those deliverables.

How is that going?  Is there any interest in discussion in Stockholm?
