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From: Luigi Iannone <ggx@gigix.net>
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To: Ronald Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>
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Subject: Re: [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01
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Hi Ron,

> On 31 Mar 2015, at 19:48, Ronald Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net> wrote:
>=20
> Damien,
>=20
> In his email below, Joel asks:
>=20
>>>> if we modified the section to say that we do not know
>>>> what the impact on cache size and control overhead will be, as the
>>>> studies that have been made have been disputed as to their =
relevance
>>>> to the core Internet case, would the document still meet the IESG
>>>> requirements for evaluating the impact
>=20
> I support Joel's request, so long as the disclaimer is complete.

Agreed that we need to clarify (via a disclaimer) what are the =
assumptions of the studies, and that outsides these assumptions we have =
no information.


> If cache size and control overhead have impact, they must have impact =
upon something. Do we know what they will impact? If so, tell us. If =
not, tell us that.
>=20

Let me try to understand here. What you are suggesting is that any =
discussion on the scalability of cache and control overhead should be =
dropped (they are in the papers anyway), and only the aspects that have =
an impact (and on what they have an impact) should be maintained.

Is my reading correct?

BTW, Deborah was also suggesting to simplify some sections which are =
cluttered with to much numbers. This seems to me inline with your =
suggestion (if I got it correctly).

ciao

Luigi


>                                                                        =
                                                   Ron
>=20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Damien Saucez [mailto:damien.saucez@gmail.com]
>> Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 7:19 PM
>> To: Ronald Bonica
>> Cc: Joel Halpern; Brian Haberman; BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A (ATTLABS); LISP
>> mailing list list
>> Subject: Re: [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01
>>=20
>> Ron,
>>=20
>> As one of the authors I can say I am not frustrated :-)
>>=20
>> We are looking on how to address in the best way the comments of this
>> thread.
>>=20
>> Just that it is unrealistic to hope a new full study on the cache =
size from
>> research partners as such a study takes a lot of time and resources =
(to
>> produce the experimentation, then to get reviewed in a conference or
>> journal and finally get published) and would not change any =
conclusion with
>> regards to the analytical studies reference in the draft already and =
that draw
>> general conclusions.
>>=20
>> The best solution could be to ask your customers to provide me the
>> necessary information so that I could evaluate the impact of LISP for =
their
>> needs. Without that, I am afraid that the only thing that we can =
reasonably
>> provide is theoretical/analytical studies.
>>=20
>> The disclaimer you propose to add is just incorrect. It is not true =
that we
>> don't know the impact of cache size. Actually, in the draft, we =
already
>> reference the analytical study [CCD12] that demonstrates analytically =
that it is
>> possible to link cache size, traffic pattern, and miss rate.
>>=20
>> Here is the paragraph present in the draft:
>>=20
>> [CCD12]  generalizes the caching discussion and proposes an analytic
>>   model for the EID-to-RLOC cache size when prefix-level traffic has =
a
>>   stationary generating process.  The model shows that miss rate can =
be
>>   accurately predicted from the EID-to-RLOC cache size and a small =
set
>>   of easily measurable traffic parameters, meaning that operators can
>>   provision the EID-to-RLOC cache of their ITRs according to the miss
>>   rate they want to achieve for their given traffic.
>>=20
>> That is clear enough for me and unless someone can prove the model =
wrong
>> I am perfectly fine with this observation that is supported by =
empirical data.
>>=20
>> Cheers,
>>=20
>> Damien Saucez
>>=20
>> On 30 Mar 2015, at 17:17, Ronald Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net> wrote:
>>=20
>>> Brian, Deborah,
>>>=20
>>> I realize that the authors are frustrated. Maybe we can run with =
Joel's
>> proposal if we make the disclaimer complete.
>>>=20
>>> Shouldn't the disclaimer read something like, "We do not know the =
impact
>> of cache size and control overhead on {x, y, z}", where x, y and z =
might be:
>>>=20
>>> - LISP scaling
>>> - LISP security
>>> - LISP resiliency
>>> - other ???
>>>=20
>>> Given that, might we draw some conclusions regarding LISP's =
applicability?
>>>=20
>>>                           Ron
>>>=20
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: lisp [mailto:lisp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joel M.
>>>> Halpern
>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2015 9:55 PM
>>>> To: Brian Haberman; BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A (ATTLABS)
>>>> Cc: LISP mailing list list
>>>> Subject: Re: [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01
>>>>=20
>>>> Brian, Deborah, if we modified the section to say that we do not =
know
>>>> what the impact on cache size and control overhead will be, as the
>>>> studies that have been made have been disputed as to their =
relevance
>>>> to the core Internet case, would the document still meet the IESG
>>>> requirements for evaluating the impact.  I don't want to ask the
>>>> authors if they can live with a certain change if that change will
>>>> cause other necessary reviewers to complain.
>>>>=20
>>>> I do not see it as sensible to hold up the publication of this and
>>>> the other LISP work while researchers go off to see if they can =
calculate
>> better results.
>>>> Particularly not when publishing this document is required to do =
other
>> work.
>>>>=20
>>>> Yours,
>>>> Joel
>>>>=20
>>>> On 3/29/15 9:50 PM, Ross Callon wrote:
>>>>> I suppose that there are two options:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> 1. Admit that we have no clue what the cache size or control
>>>>> overhead will be.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> 2. Repeat the cited studies, but with a pessimistic (worse case)
>>>>> rather than optimistic (better than best case) assumption about
>>>>> cache granularity.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> The second option would allow us to actually have some idea what
>>>>> would happen if LISP were deployed on an Internet-wide scale, but
>>>>> would of course take more time and more work.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Ross
>>>>>=20
>>>>> PS: I will be offline at meetings all of this week, so I might be =
a
>>>>> bit slower to respond for the next few days.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Joel M. Halpern
>>>>> [mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com] Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2015 9:36 PM
>> To:
>>>>> Ross Callon; Luigi Iannone; LISP mailing list list Cc:
>>>>> draft-ietf-lisp-impact@tools.ietf.org Subject: Re: [lisp] WG Last
>>>>> Call
>>>>> draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Putting aside the TBD (which of course needs to be fixed),  I have
>>>>> trouble figuring out what you want us to say about the main issue =
in
>>>>> your review.  On the one hand, this is the very issue that we have
>>>>> been asked to comment on, and on the other hand you say that we
>>>>> don't know. What do you think it is reasoanble to say?
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Yours, Joel
>>>>>=20
>>>>> On 3/29/15 9:03 PM, Ross Callon wrote:
>>>>>> Generally I think that this document needs more work before it =
will
>>>>>> be ready to submit for publication. Some comments on
>>>>>> draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01:
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> First of all, I assume that the TBD at the end of section 3 will =
be
>>>>>> fixed. This reads:
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> TBD: add a paragraph to explain the operational difference while
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> dealing with a pull model instead of a push.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Also in section 3, the third paragraph begins:
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> In addition, Iannone and Bonaventure [IB07] show that the number =
of
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> mapping entries that must be handled by an ITR of a campus =
network
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> with 10,000 users is limited to few tens of thousands, and does =
not
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> represent more than 3 to 4 Megabytes of memory.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Reference [IB07] is of course:
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Iannone, L. and O. Bonaventure, "On the cost of caching =
locator/id
>>>>>> mappings", In
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Proc. ACM CoNEXT 2007, December 2007.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> This paper states:
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> In our analysis, we assume that the granularity of the
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> EID-to-RLOC mapping is the prefix blocks assigned by
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> RIRs. We call it /BGP granularity. In particular, we
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> used the list of prefixes made available by the iPlane
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Project [15], containing around 240,000 entries. Using
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> /BGP granularity means that each EID is first mapped
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> on a /BGP prefix. The cache will thus contain /BGP
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> to RLOC mappings.2 This is a natural choice, since
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> routing locators are supposed to be border routers.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> The authors should be aware that there is some aggregation /
>>>>>> summarization being done in the operation of BGP routing, and =
that
>>>>>> the granularity of routes which appear in the default-free BGP
>>>>>> routing tables is fundamentally different from the granularity of
>>>>>> enterprise network / ISP boundaries across which traffic is
>>>>>> exchanged.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> The same paragraph cites Kim et al.  [KIF11], which is Kim, J.,
>>>>>> Iannone, L., and A. Feldmann, "Deep dive into the lisp cache and
>>>>>> what isps should know about it", In Proc.  IFIP Networking 2011, =
May
>> 2011.
>>>>>> =46rom this document:
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> In addition, we use a local BGP prefixes
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> database, fed with the list of BGP prefixes published by the =
iPlane
>>>>>> Project [17].
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> The database is used to group EID-to-RLOCs mappings with the
>>>>>> granularity of
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> existing BGP prefixes, because, as for today, there is no
>>>>>> sufficient information
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> to predict what will be the granularity of mappings in a
>>>>>> LISP-enabled Internet.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> I agree that "there is not sufficient information to predict what
>>>>>> will be the granularity of mappings in a LISP-enabled Internet".
>>>>>> However, not knowing what the mapping granularity will be does =
not
>>>>>> justify using an extremely optimistic guess, and then acting as =
if
>>>>>> the results are meaningful. These assumptions are clearly off by
>>>>>> some number of orders of magnitude, but how many orders of
>>>>>> magnitude is unknown. We will note that the current internet
>>>>>> default-free routing table includes a few hundred thousand =
entries
>>>>>> (roughly twice the
>>>>>> 240,000 entries that existed when this study was done).
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> For example, we might assume that the intended global deployment
>>>>>> model involves xTRs at the boundary between enterprise networks
>> and
>>>>>> service providers, and might note that there are several million
>>>>>> companies in the USA alone (most of these are relatively small
>>>>>> companies, of course). Thus there may be very roughly on the =
order
>>>>>> of a hundred million or so companies worldwide. If each one had a
>>>>>> separate entry in the mapping table, then the number of entries
>>>>>> will be nearly 1,000 times larger than BGP-prefix granularity.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Section 4 mentions as one possible use of LISP: "enable mobility =
of
>>>>>> subscriber end points". If individual end points are advertised
>>>>>> into LISP, then the granularity of the mapping table may be on =
the
>>>>>> order of individual systems. In this case the number of mapping
>>>>>> table entries that could exist globally might be on the same =
order
>>>>>> of magnitude as the number of people in the world, or very =
roughly
>>>>>> 7 Billion entries. This would suggest that the mapping table =
might
>>>>>> be roughly 30,000 times finer grained than was assumed in the
>>>>>> referenced studies.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> I don't see how we can accurately predict the control plane load =
of
>>>>>> LISP without some sense for what the granularity of the mapping
>>>>>> table will be. It should however be possible to bound the control
>>>>>> plane load. The referenced studies give a lower bound on possible
>>>>>> control plane load (it won't be any less), but give neither an
>>>>>> accurate measurement nor an upper bound on the potential control
>>>>>> plane load. I don't think that the document can claim to explain
>>>>>> the impact of LISP without there being an attempt to measure an
>>>>>> upper bound on the control plane load.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Finally, perhaps I missed it but I didn't see any discussion of =
the
>>>>>> volume of overhead related to OAM traffic used for liveness
>>>>>> detection (the need for ITR's to determine the reachability of =
ETR's).
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Thanks, Ross
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> *From:*lisp [mailto:lisp-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Luigi
>>>>>> Iannone *Sent:* Monday, March 09, 2015 10:22 AM *To:* LISP =
mailing
>>>>>> list list *Cc:* draft-ietf-lisp-impact@tools.ietf.org *Subject:*
>>>>>> [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> the authors of the LISP Impact document
>>>>>> [https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01] requested
>>>>>> the Work Group Last Call.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> This email starts a WG Last Call, to end March 30th, 2015.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Because usually the pre-meeting period is already overloaded, the
>>>>>> LC duration is set to three weeks.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Please review this updated WG document and let the WG know if you
>>>>>> agree that it is ready for handing to the AD.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> If you have objections, please state your reasons why, and =
explain
>>>>>> what it would take to address your concerns.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Any raised issue will be discussed during the WG meeting in =
Dallas.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Luigi & Joel
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> _______________________________________________ lisp
>> mailing
>>>> list
>>>>>> lisp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lisp
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> lisp mailing list
>>>> lisp@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lisp
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> lisp mailing list
>>> lisp@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lisp
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> lisp mailing list
> lisp@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lisp


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From: Damien Saucez <damien.saucez@gmail.com>
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To: Ronald Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>
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Subject: Re: [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01
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On 31 Mar 2015, at 19:48, Ronald Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net> wrote:

> Damien,
>=20
> In his email below, Joel asks:
>=20
>>>> if we modified the section to say that we do not know
>>>> what the impact on cache size and control overhead will be, as the
>>>> studies that have been made have been disputed as to their =
relevance
>>>> to the core Internet case, would the document still meet the IESG
>>>> requirements for evaluating the impact
>=20
> I support Joel's request, so long as the disclaimer is complete. If =
cache size and control overhead have impact, they must have impact upon =
something.


I don=92t see the point of an explicit disclaimer.  By definition when =
we give
hypothesis it means that results are limited to these hypotheses.  If we =
have
to put an explicit disclaimer in this document, it means that ALL IETF
documents based on experimentation/implementation should have such =
disclaimer,
but also any research document!

For me page 4 is explicit enough with the assumptions and I don=92t see =
the point
to add a disclaimer.

The assumptions in these studies are:

o  contiguous addresses tend to be used similarly and EID prefixes
  follow the current BGP prefixes decomposition;

o  EIDs are used only at the stub ASes, not in the transit ASes;

o  the RLOCs of an EID prefix are deployed at the edge between the
  stubs owning the EID prefix and the providers, allocating the
  RLOCs in a Provider Aggregetable (PA) mode.

> Do we know what they will impact? If so, tell us. If not, tell us =
that.

This is the exact reason why [CCD12] is referenced. It shows that the =
impact
is on miss rate (see page 5). Also as it is a public analytical study, =
people can
adapt it relatively easily (as opposed to a traffic trace that is not =
available to
the community).

Damien Saucez=20
>=20
>                                                                        =
                                               Ron
>=20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Damien Saucez [mailto:damien.saucez@gmail.com]
>> Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 7:19 PM
>> To: Ronald Bonica
>> Cc: Joel Halpern; Brian Haberman; BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A (ATTLABS); LISP
>> mailing list list
>> Subject: Re: [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01
>>=20
>> Ron,
>>=20
>> As one of the authors I can say I am not frustrated :-)
>>=20
>> We are looking on how to address in the best way the comments of this
>> thread.
>>=20
>> Just that it is unrealistic to hope a new full study on the cache =
size from
>> research partners as such a study takes a lot of time and resources =
(to
>> produce the experimentation, then to get reviewed in a conference or
>> journal and finally get published) and would not change any =
conclusion with
>> regards to the analytical studies reference in the draft already and =
that draw
>> general conclusions.
>>=20
>> The best solution could be to ask your customers to provide me the
>> necessary information so that I could evaluate the impact of LISP for =
their
>> needs. Without that, I am afraid that the only thing that we can =
reasonably
>> provide is theoretical/analytical studies.
>>=20
>> The disclaimer you propose to add is just incorrect. It is not true =
that we
>> don't know the impact of cache size. Actually, in the draft, we =
already
>> reference the analytical study [CCD12] that demonstrates analytically =
that it is
>> possible to link cache size, traffic pattern, and miss rate.
>>=20
>> Here is the paragraph present in the draft:
>>=20
>> [CCD12]  generalizes the caching discussion and proposes an analytic
>> model for the EID-to-RLOC cache size when prefix-level traffic has a
>> stationary generating process.  The model shows that miss rate can be
>> accurately predicted from the EID-to-RLOC cache size and a small set
>> of easily measurable traffic parameters, meaning that operators can
>> provision the EID-to-RLOC cache of their ITRs according to the miss
>> rate they want to achieve for their given traffic.
>>=20
>> That is clear enough for me and unless someone can prove the model =
wrong
>> I am perfectly fine with this observation that is supported by =
empirical data.
>>=20
>> Cheers,
>>=20
>> Damien Saucez
>>=20
>> On 30 Mar 2015, at 17:17, Ronald Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net> wrote:
>>=20
>>> Brian, Deborah,
>>>=20
>>> I realize that the authors are frustrated. Maybe we can run with =
Joel's
>> proposal if we make the disclaimer complete.
>>>=20
>>> Shouldn't the disclaimer read something like, "We do not know the =
impact
>> of cache size and control overhead on {x, y, z}", where x, y and z =
might be:
>>>=20
>>> - LISP scaling
>>> - LISP security
>>> - LISP resiliency
>>> - other ???
>>>=20
>>> Given that, might we draw some conclusions regarding LISP's =
applicability?
>>>=20
>>>                       Ron
>>>=20
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: lisp [mailto:lisp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joel M.
>>>> Halpern
>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2015 9:55 PM
>>>> To: Brian Haberman; BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A (ATTLABS)
>>>> Cc: LISP mailing list list
>>>> Subject: Re: [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01
>>>>=20
>>>> Brian, Deborah, if we modified the section to say that we do not =
know
>>>> what the impact on cache size and control overhead will be, as the
>>>> studies that have been made have been disputed as to their =
relevance
>>>> to the core Internet case, would the document still meet the IESG
>>>> requirements for evaluating the impact.  I don't want to ask the
>>>> authors if they can live with a certain change if that change will
>>>> cause other necessary reviewers to complain.
>>>>=20
>>>> I do not see it as sensible to hold up the publication of this and
>>>> the other LISP work while researchers go off to see if they can =
calculate
>> better results.
>>>> Particularly not when publishing this document is required to do =
other
>> work.
>>>>=20
>>>> Yours,
>>>> Joel
>>>>=20
>>>> On 3/29/15 9:50 PM, Ross Callon wrote:
>>>>> I suppose that there are two options:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> 1. Admit that we have no clue what the cache size or control
>>>>> overhead will be.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> 2. Repeat the cited studies, but with a pessimistic (worse case)
>>>>> rather than optimistic (better than best case) assumption about
>>>>> cache granularity.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> The second option would allow us to actually have some idea what
>>>>> would happen if LISP were deployed on an Internet-wide scale, but
>>>>> would of course take more time and more work.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Ross
>>>>>=20
>>>>> PS: I will be offline at meetings all of this week, so I might be =
a
>>>>> bit slower to respond for the next few days.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Joel M. Halpern
>>>>> [mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com] Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2015 9:36 PM
>> To:
>>>>> Ross Callon; Luigi Iannone; LISP mailing list list Cc:
>>>>> draft-ietf-lisp-impact@tools.ietf.org Subject: Re: [lisp] WG Last
>>>>> Call
>>>>> draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Putting aside the TBD (which of course needs to be fixed),  I have
>>>>> trouble figuring out what you want us to say about the main issue =
in
>>>>> your review.  On the one hand, this is the very issue that we have
>>>>> been asked to comment on, and on the other hand you say that we
>>>>> don't know. What do you think it is reasoanble to say?
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Yours, Joel
>>>>>=20
>>>>> On 3/29/15 9:03 PM, Ross Callon wrote:
>>>>>> Generally I think that this document needs more work before it =
will
>>>>>> be ready to submit for publication. Some comments on
>>>>>> draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01:
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> First of all, I assume that the TBD at the end of section 3 will =
be
>>>>>> fixed. This reads:
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> TBD: add a paragraph to explain the operational difference while
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> dealing with a pull model instead of a push.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Also in section 3, the third paragraph begins:
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> In addition, Iannone and Bonaventure [IB07] show that the number =
of
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> mapping entries that must be handled by an ITR of a campus =
network
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> with 10,000 users is limited to few tens of thousands, and does =
not
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> represent more than 3 to 4 Megabytes of memory.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Reference [IB07] is of course:
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Iannone, L. and O. Bonaventure, "On the cost of caching =
locator/id
>>>>>> mappings", In
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Proc. ACM CoNEXT 2007, December 2007.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> This paper states:
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> In our analysis, we assume that the granularity of the
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> EID-to-RLOC mapping is the prefix blocks assigned by
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> RIRs. We call it /BGP granularity. In particular, we
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> used the list of prefixes made available by the iPlane
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Project [15], containing around 240,000 entries. Using
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> /BGP granularity means that each EID is first mapped
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> on a /BGP prefix. The cache will thus contain /BGP
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> to RLOC mappings.2 This is a natural choice, since
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> routing locators are supposed to be border routers.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> The authors should be aware that there is some aggregation /
>>>>>> summarization being done in the operation of BGP routing, and =
that
>>>>>> the granularity of routes which appear in the default-free BGP
>>>>>> routing tables is fundamentally different from the granularity of
>>>>>> enterprise network / ISP boundaries across which traffic is
>>>>>> exchanged.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> The same paragraph cites Kim et al.  [KIF11], which is Kim, J.,
>>>>>> Iannone, L., and A. Feldmann, "Deep dive into the lisp cache and
>>>>>> what isps should know about it", In Proc.  IFIP Networking 2011, =
May
>> 2011.
>>>>>> =46rom this document:
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> In addition, we use a local BGP prefixes
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> database, fed with the list of BGP prefixes published by the =
iPlane
>>>>>> Project [17].
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> The database is used to group EID-to-RLOCs mappings with the
>>>>>> granularity of
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> existing BGP prefixes, because, as for today, there is no
>>>>>> sufficient information
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> to predict what will be the granularity of mappings in a
>>>>>> LISP-enabled Internet.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> I agree that "there is not sufficient information to predict what
>>>>>> will be the granularity of mappings in a LISP-enabled Internet".
>>>>>> However, not knowing what the mapping granularity will be does =
not
>>>>>> justify using an extremely optimistic guess, and then acting as =
if
>>>>>> the results are meaningful. These assumptions are clearly off by
>>>>>> some number of orders of magnitude, but how many orders of
>>>>>> magnitude is unknown. We will note that the current internet
>>>>>> default-free routing table includes a few hundred thousand =
entries
>>>>>> (roughly twice the
>>>>>> 240,000 entries that existed when this study was done).
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> For example, we might assume that the intended global deployment
>>>>>> model involves xTRs at the boundary between enterprise networks
>> and
>>>>>> service providers, and might note that there are several million
>>>>>> companies in the USA alone (most of these are relatively small
>>>>>> companies, of course). Thus there may be very roughly on the =
order
>>>>>> of a hundred million or so companies worldwide. If each one had a
>>>>>> separate entry in the mapping table, then the number of entries
>>>>>> will be nearly 1,000 times larger than BGP-prefix granularity.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Section 4 mentions as one possible use of LISP: "enable mobility =
of
>>>>>> subscriber end points". If individual end points are advertised
>>>>>> into LISP, then the granularity of the mapping table may be on =
the
>>>>>> order of individual systems. In this case the number of mapping
>>>>>> table entries that could exist globally might be on the same =
order
>>>>>> of magnitude as the number of people in the world, or very =
roughly
>>>>>> 7 Billion entries. This would suggest that the mapping table =
might
>>>>>> be roughly 30,000 times finer grained than was assumed in the
>>>>>> referenced studies.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> I don't see how we can accurately predict the control plane load =
of
>>>>>> LISP without some sense for what the granularity of the mapping
>>>>>> table will be. It should however be possible to bound the control
>>>>>> plane load. The referenced studies give a lower bound on possible
>>>>>> control plane load (it won't be any less), but give neither an
>>>>>> accurate measurement nor an upper bound on the potential control
>>>>>> plane load. I don't think that the document can claim to explain
>>>>>> the impact of LISP without there being an attempt to measure an
>>>>>> upper bound on the control plane load.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Finally, perhaps I missed it but I didn't see any discussion of =
the
>>>>>> volume of overhead related to OAM traffic used for liveness
>>>>>> detection (the need for ITR's to determine the reachability of =
ETR's).
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Thanks, Ross
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> *From:*lisp [mailto:lisp-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Luigi
>>>>>> Iannone *Sent:* Monday, March 09, 2015 10:22 AM *To:* LISP =
mailing
>>>>>> list list *Cc:* draft-ietf-lisp-impact@tools.ietf.org *Subject:*
>>>>>> [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> the authors of the LISP Impact document
>>>>>> [https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01] requested
>>>>>> the Work Group Last Call.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> This email starts a WG Last Call, to end March 30th, 2015.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Because usually the pre-meeting period is already overloaded, the
>>>>>> LC duration is set to three weeks.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Please review this updated WG document and let the WG know if you
>>>>>> agree that it is ready for handing to the AD.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> If you have objections, please state your reasons why, and =
explain
>>>>>> what it would take to address your concerns.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Any raised issue will be discussed during the WG meeting in =
Dallas.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Luigi & Joel
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> _______________________________________________ lisp
>> mailing
>>>> list
>>>>>> lisp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lisp
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> lisp mailing list
>>>> lisp@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lisp
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> lisp mailing list
>>> lisp@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lisp
>=20


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Subject: Re: [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01
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On 30 Mar 2015, at 03:50, Ross Callon <rcallon@juniper.net> wrote:

> I suppose that there are two options:
>=20
> 1. Admit that we have no clue what the cache size or control overhead =
will be.
>=20

See [CCD12], this document provides a generic model that works for
any desegregation assumption as long as the map-cache is implemented
with LRU.

Damien Saucez

> 2. Repeat the cited studies, but with a pessimistic (worse case) =
rather than optimistic (better than best case) assumption about cache =
granularity.=20
>=20
> The second option would allow us to actually have some idea what would =
happen if LISP were deployed on an Internet-wide scale, but would of =
course take more time and more work.=20
>=20
> Ross
>=20
> PS: I will be offline at meetings all of this week, so I might be a =
bit slower to respond for the next few days. =20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joel M. Halpern [mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com]=20
> Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2015 9:36 PM
> To: Ross Callon; Luigi Iannone; LISP mailing list list
> Cc: draft-ietf-lisp-impact@tools.ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01
>=20
> Putting aside the TBD (which of course needs to be fixed),  I have=20
> trouble figuring out what you want us to say about the main issue in=20=

> your review.  On the one hand, this is the very issue that we have =
been=20
> asked to comment on, and on the other hand you say that we don't know.=20=

> What do you think it is reasoanble to say?
>=20
> Yours,
> Joel
>=20
> On 3/29/15 9:03 PM, Ross Callon wrote:
>> Generally I think that this document needs more work before it will =
be
>> ready to submit for publication. Some comments on =
draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01:
>>=20
>> First of all, I assume that the TBD at the end of section 3 will be
>> fixed. This reads:
>>=20
>>  TBD: add a paragraph to explain the operational difference while
>>=20
>>  dealing with a pull model instead of a push.
>>=20
>> Also in section 3, the third paragraph begins:
>>=20
>>  In addition, Iannone and Bonaventure [IB07] show that the number of
>>=20
>>  mapping entries that must be handled by an ITR of a campus network
>>=20
>>  with 10,000 users is limited to few tens of thousands, and does not
>>=20
>>  represent more than 3 to 4 Megabytes of memory.
>>=20
>> Reference [IB07] is of course:
>>=20
>>             Iannone, L. and O. Bonaventure, "On the cost of caching
>> locator/id mappings", In
>>=20
>>             Proc. ACM CoNEXT 2007, December 2007.
>>=20
>> This paper states:
>>=20
>>   In our analysis, we assume that the granularity of the
>>=20
>>   EID-to-RLOC mapping is the prefix blocks assigned by
>>=20
>>   RIRs. We call it /BGP granularity. In particular, we
>>=20
>>   used the list of prefixes made available by the iPlane
>>=20
>>   Project [15], containing around 240,000 entries. Using
>>=20
>>   /BGP granularity means that each EID is first mapped
>>=20
>>   on a /BGP prefix. The cache will thus contain /BGP
>>=20
>>   to RLOC mappings.2 This is a natural choice, since
>>=20
>>   routing locators are supposed to be border routers.
>>=20
>> The authors should be aware that there is some aggregation /
>> summarization being done in the operation of BGP routing, and that =
the
>> granularity of routes which appear in the default-free BGP routing
>> tables is fundamentally different from the granularity of enterprise
>> network / ISP boundaries across which traffic is exchanged.
>>=20
>> The same paragraph cites Kim et al.  [KIF11], which is Kim, J., =
Iannone,
>> L., and A. Feldmann, "Deep dive into the lisp cache and what isps =
should
>> know about it", In Proc.  IFIP Networking 2011, May 2011.  =46rom =
this
>> document:
>>=20
>>   In addition, we use a local BGP prefixes
>>=20
>>   database, fed with the list of BGP prefixes published by the iPlane
>> Project [17].
>>=20
>>   The database is used to group EID-to-RLOCs mappings with the
>> granularity of
>>=20
>>   existing BGP prefixes, because, as for today, there is no
>> sufficient information
>>=20
>>   to predict what will be the granularity of mappings in a
>> LISP-enabled Internet.
>>=20
>> I agree that "there is not sufficient information to predict what =
will
>> be the granularity of mappings in a LISP-enabled Internet". However, =
not
>> knowing what the mapping granularity will be does not justify using =
an
>> extremely optimistic guess, and then acting as if the results are
>> meaningful. These assumptions are clearly off by some number of =
orders
>> of magnitude, but how many orders of magnitude is unknown. We will =
note
>> that the current internet default-free routing table includes a few
>> hundred thousand entries (roughly twice the 240,000 entries that =
existed
>> when this study was done).
>>=20
>> For example, we might assume that the intended global deployment =
model
>> involves xTRs at the boundary between enterprise networks and service
>> providers, and might note that there are several million companies in
>> the USA alone (most of these are relatively small companies, of =
course).
>> Thus there may be very roughly on the order of a hundred million or =
so
>> companies worldwide. If each one had a separate entry in the mapping
>> table, then the number of entries will be nearly 1,000 times larger =
than
>> BGP-prefix granularity.
>>=20
>> Section 4 mentions as one possible use of LISP: "enable mobility of
>> subscriber end points". If individual end points are advertised into
>> LISP, then the granularity of the mapping table may be on the order =
of
>> individual systems. In this case the number of mapping table entries
>> that could exist globally might be on the same order of magnitude as =
the
>> number of people in the world, or very roughly 7 Billion entries. =
This
>> would suggest that the mapping table might be roughly 30,000 times =
finer
>> grained than was assumed in the referenced studies.
>>=20
>> I don't see how we can accurately predict the control plane load of =
LISP
>> without some sense for what the granularity of the mapping table will
>> be. It should however be possible to bound the control plane load. =
The
>> referenced studies give a lower bound on possible control plane load =
(it
>> won't be any less), but give neither an accurate measurement nor an
>> upper bound on the potential control plane load. I don't think that =
the
>> document can claim to explain the impact of LISP without there being =
an
>> attempt to measure an upper bound on the control plane load.
>>=20
>> Finally, perhaps I missed it but I didn't see any discussion of the
>> volume of overhead related to OAM traffic used for liveness detection
>> (the need for ITR's to determine the reachability of ETR's).
>>=20
>> Thanks, Ross
>>=20
>> *From:*lisp [mailto:lisp-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Luigi =
Iannone
>> *Sent:* Monday, March 09, 2015 10:22 AM
>> *To:* LISP mailing list list
>> *Cc:* draft-ietf-lisp-impact@tools.ietf.org
>> *Subject:* [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01
>>=20
>> Hi All,
>>=20
>> the authors of the LISP Impact document
>> [https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01] requested the
>> Work Group Last Call.
>>=20
>> This email starts a WG Last Call, to end March 30th, 2015.
>>=20
>> Because usually the pre-meeting period is already overloaded, the LC
>> duration is set to three weeks.
>>=20
>> Please review this updated WG document and let the WG know if you =
agree
>> that it is ready for handing to the AD.
>>=20
>> If you have objections, please state your reasons why, and explain =
what
>> it would take to address your concerns.
>>=20
>> Any raised issue will be discussed during the WG meeting in Dallas.
>>=20
>> Thanks
>>=20
>>=20
>> Luigi & Joel
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> lisp mailing list
>> lisp@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lisp
>>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> lisp mailing list
> lisp@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lisp


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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
 This draft is a work item of the Locator/ID Separation Protocol Working Group of the IETF.

        Title           : An Architectural Introduction to the Locator/ID Separation Protocol (LISP)
        Authors         : Albert Cabellos
                          Damien Saucez
	Filename        : draft-ietf-lisp-introduction-13.txt
	Pages           : 27
	Date            : 2015-04-02

Abstract:
   This document describes the architecture of the Locator/ID Separation
   Protocol (LISP), making it easier to read the rest of the LISP
   specifications and providing a basis for discussion about the details
   of the LISP protocols.  This document is used for introductory
   purposes, more details can be found in RFC6830, the protocol
   specification.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lisp-introduction/

There's also a htmlized version available at:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lisp-introduction-13

A diff from the previous version is available at:
http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-lisp-introduction-13


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


From nobody Thu Apr  2 05:27:18 2015
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A new version (-13) has been submitted for draft-ietf-lisp-introduction:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-lisp-introduction-13.txt

Sub state has been changed to AD Followup from Revised ID Needed


The IETF datatracker page for this Internet-Draft is:
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Diff from previous version:
http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-lisp-introduction-13

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until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

IETF Secretariat.


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From: Dino Farinacci <farinacci@gmail.com>
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Reading through the diffs for this draft. Should change "no" to "not" =
when you get a chance.



Dino


> Begin forwarded message:
>=20
> From: internet-drafts@ietf.org
> To: <i-d-announce@ietf.org>
> Subject: I-D Action: draft-ietf-lisp-introduction-13.txt
> Date: April 2, 2015 at 5:27:11 AM PDT
> Cc: lisp@ietf.org
> Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org
>=20
>=20
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts =
directories.
> This draft is a work item of the Locator/ID Separation Protocol =
Working Group of the IETF.
>=20
>        Title           : An Architectural Introduction to the =
Locator/ID Separation Protocol (LISP)
>        Authors         : Albert Cabellos
>                          Damien Saucez
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-lisp-introduction-13.txt
> 	Pages           : 27
> 	Date            : 2015-04-02
>=20
> Abstract:
>   This document describes the architecture of the Locator/ID =
Separation
>   Protocol (LISP), making it easier to read the rest of the LISP
>   specifications and providing a basis for discussion about the =
details
>   of the LISP protocols.  This document is used for introductory
>   purposes, more details can be found in RFC6830, the protocol
>   specification.
>=20
>=20
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lisp-introduction/
>=20
> There's also a htmlized version available at:
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lisp-introduction-13
>=20
> A diff from the previous version is available at:
> http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-lisp-introduction-13
>=20
>=20
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of =
submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>=20
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> I-D-Announce mailing list
> I-D-Announce@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce
> Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt


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<html><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div class=3D"">Reading through =
the diffs for this draft. Should change "no" to "not" when you get a =
chance.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><img =
apple-inline=3D"yes" id=3D"E1E06C28-BE6E-41CC-9AEE-A64C3EEE13AC" =
height=3D"66" width=3D"763" apple-width=3D"yes" apple-height=3D"yes" =
src=3D"cid:05C7115C-A5AE-4195-B5AC-BC9488D0F7B2" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Dino<br class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D"">Begin forwarded message:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">From:&nbsp;<a href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D"">To:&nbsp;&lt;i-d-announce@ietf.org&gt;<br =
class=3D"">Subject:&nbsp;I-D Action: =
draft-ietf-lisp-introduction-13.txt<br class=3D"">Date:&nbsp;April 2, =
2015 at 5:27:11 AM PDT<br class=3D"">Cc:&nbsp;lisp@ietf.org<br =
class=3D"">Reply-To:&nbsp;internet-drafts@ietf.org<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">A New Internet-Draft is available from the =
on-line Internet-Drafts directories.<br class=3D"">This draft is a work =
item of the Locator/ID Separation Protocol Working Group of the IETF.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Title &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; : An Architectural Introduction to the Locator/ID =
Separation Protocol (LISP)<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;Authors &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; : Albert Cabellos<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Damien Saucez<br class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>Filename =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;: draft-ietf-lisp-introduction-13.txt<br =
class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>Pages &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; : 27<br class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>Date =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;: 2015-04-02<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Abstract:<br class=3D"">&nbsp; This document describes the =
architecture of the Locator/ID Separation<br class=3D"">&nbsp; Protocol =
(LISP), making it easier to read the rest of the LISP<br class=3D"">&nbsp;=
 specifications and providing a basis for discussion about the =
details<br class=3D"">&nbsp; of the LISP protocols. &nbsp;This document =
is used for introductory<br class=3D"">&nbsp; purposes, more details can =
be found in RFC6830, the protocol<br class=3D"">&nbsp; specification.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">The IETF datatracker status =
page for this draft is:<br =
class=3D"">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lisp-introduction/<=
br class=3D""><br class=3D"">There's also a htmlized version available =
at:<br =
class=3D"">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lisp-introduction-13<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">A diff from the previous version is available =
at:<br =
class=3D"">http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-lisp-introduction=
-13<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Please note that it may =
take a couple of minutes from the time of submission<br class=3D"">until =
the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Internet-Drafts are also available by =
anonymous FTP at:<br class=3D"">ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/<br =
class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">I-D-Announce mailing list<br =
class=3D"">I-D-Announce@ietf.org<br =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce<br =
class=3D"">Internet-Draft directories: =
http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html<br class=3D"">or =
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt<br class=3D""></blockquote><br =
class=3D""></div></div></body></html>=

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From: Ross Callon <rcallon@juniper.net>
To: Damien Saucez <damien.saucez@gmail.com>
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Cc: LISP mailing list list <lisp@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-lisp-impact@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-lisp-impact@tools.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01
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> See [CCD12], this document provides a generic model that works for
> any desegregation assumption as long as the map-cache is implemented
> with LRU.
>
> Damien Saucez

I am at meetings all of this week (and of course last week was pretty busy =
for most of us). I have however pulled up a copy of this paper, and will re=
ad it through as soon as I get a chance. I will try to respond the first ha=
lf of next week.=20

Thanks, Ross


From nobody Thu Apr  2 08:04:02 2015
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From: Damien Saucez <damien.saucez@gmail.com>
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To: Ross Callon <rcallon@juniper.net>
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Subject: Re: [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01
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On 02 Apr 2015, at 16:57, Ross Callon <rcallon@juniper.net> wrote:

>> See [CCD12], this document provides a generic model that works for
>> any desegregation assumption as long as the map-cache is implemented
>> with LRU.
>>=20
>> Damien Saucez
>=20
> I am at meetings all of this week (and of course last week was pretty =
busy for most of us). I have however pulled up a copy of this paper, and =
will read it through as soon as I get a chance. I will try to respond =
the first half of next week.=20
>=20
great, thanks.=20

Damien Saucez=20

> Thanks, Ross


From nobody Fri Apr  3 08:07:15 2015
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Hi All,

authors submitted a new version of the LISP introduction document=20
addressing all of the discuss and comments previously raised.

Please let us know if there is any residual issue.

ciao

Luigi


> Begin forwarded message:
>=20
> From: internet-drafts@ietf.org
> To: <i-d-announce@ietf.org>
> Subject: I-D Action: draft-ietf-lisp-introduction-13.txt
> Date: 2 Apr 2015 14:27:11 CEST
> Cc: lisp@ietf.org
> Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org
>=20
>=20
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts =
directories.
> This draft is a work item of the Locator/ID Separation Protocol =
Working Group of the IETF.
>=20
>        Title           : An Architectural Introduction to the =
Locator/ID Separation Protocol (LISP)
>        Authors         : Albert Cabellos
>                          Damien Saucez
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-lisp-introduction-13.txt
> 	Pages           : 27
> 	Date            : 2015-04-02
>=20
> Abstract:
>   This document describes the architecture of the Locator/ID =
Separation
>   Protocol (LISP), making it easier to read the rest of the LISP
>   specifications and providing a basis for discussion about the =
details
>   of the LISP protocols.  This document is used for introductory
>   purposes, more details can be found in RFC6830, the protocol
>   specification.
>=20
>=20
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lisp-introduction/
>=20
> There's also a htmlized version available at:
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lisp-introduction-13
>=20
> A diff from the previous version is available at:
> http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-lisp-introduction-13
>=20
>=20
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of =
submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>=20
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> I-D-Announce mailing list
> I-D-Announce@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce
> Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dus-ascii"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Hi All,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">authors submitted a new version of the LISP introduction =
document&nbsp;</div><div class=3D"">addressing all of the discuss and =
comments previously raised.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div=
 class=3D"">Please let us know if there is any residual issue.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">ciao</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Luigi</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Begin forwarded message:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class=3D""><span=
 style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, =
sans-serif; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);" class=3D""><b class=3D"">From: =
</b></span><span style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica =
Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a><br class=3D""></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
-webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; =
color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);" class=3D""><b class=3D"">To: </b></span><span =
style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:i-d-announce@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">i-d-announce@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D""></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
-webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; =
color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);" class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject: =
</b></span><span style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica =
Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D"">I-D Action: =
draft-ietf-lisp-introduction-13.txt</b><br class=3D""></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
-webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; =
color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);" class=3D""><b class=3D"">Date: =
</b></span><span style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica =
Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">2 Apr 2015 14:27:11 CEST<br =
class=3D""></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: =
0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, =
sans-serif; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);" class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc: =
</b></span><span style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica =
Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:lisp@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">lisp@ietf.org</a><br class=3D""></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
-webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; =
color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);" class=3D""><b class=3D"">Reply-To: =
</b></span><span style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica =
Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a><br class=3D""></span></div><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D"">A New Internet-Draft is =
available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.<br class=3D""> =
This draft is a work item of the Locator/ID Separation Protocol Working =
Group of the IETF.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Title =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;: An =
Architectural Introduction to the Locator/ID Separation Protocol =
(LISP)<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Authors =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;: Albert Cabellos<br =
class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;Damien Saucez<br class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>Filename =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;: =
draft-ietf-lisp-introduction-13.txt<br class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>Pages =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;: 27<br =
class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>Date =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;: =
2015-04-02<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Abstract:<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;This document describes the architecture of the Locator/ID =
Separation<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;Protocol (LISP), making it easier =
to read the rest of the LISP<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;specifications =
and providing a basis for discussion about the details<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;of the LISP protocols. &nbsp;This document is used for =
introductory<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;purposes, more details can be =
found in RFC6830, the protocol<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;specification.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">The=
 IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lisp-introduction/" =
class=3D"">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lisp-introduction/<=
/a><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">There's also a htmlized version =
available at:<br =
class=3D"">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lisp-introduction-13<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">A diff from the previous version is available =
at:<br =
class=3D"">http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-lisp-introduction=
-13<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Please note that it may =
take a couple of minutes from the time of submission<br class=3D"">until =
the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Internet-Drafts are also available by =
anonymous FTP at:<br class=3D"">ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/<br =
class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">I-D-Announce mailing list<br =
class=3D"">I-D-Announce@ietf.org<br =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce<br =
class=3D"">Internet-Draft directories: =
http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html<br class=3D"">or =
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt<br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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Subject: [lisp] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lisp-lcaf-08.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
 This draft is a work item of the Locator/ID Separation Protocol Working Group of the IETF.

        Title           : LISP Canonical Address Format (LCAF)
        Authors         : Dino Farinacci
                          Dave Meyer
                          Job Snijders
	Filename        : draft-ietf-lisp-lcaf-08.txt
	Pages           : 36
	Date            : 2015-04-03

Abstract:
   This draft defines a canonical address format encoding used in LISP
   control messages and in the encoding of lookup keys for the LISP
   Mapping Database System.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lisp-lcaf/

There's also a htmlized version available at:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lisp-lcaf-08

A diff from the previous version is available at:
http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-lisp-lcaf-08


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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From: Dino Farinacci <farinacci@gmail.com>
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This update contains the following changes:



Thanks,
Dino

> On Apr 3, 2015, at 1:18 PM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:
>=20
>=20
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts =
directories.
> This draft is a work item of the Locator/ID Separation Protocol =
Working Group of the IETF.
>=20
>        Title           : LISP Canonical Address Format (LCAF)
>        Authors         : Dino Farinacci
>                          Dave Meyer
>                          Job Snijders
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-lisp-lcaf-08.txt
> 	Pages           : 36
> 	Date            : 2015-04-03
>=20
> Abstract:
>   This draft defines a canonical address format encoding used in LISP
>   control messages and in the encoding of lookup keys for the LISP
>   Mapping Database System.
>=20
>=20
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lisp-lcaf/
>=20
> There's also a htmlized version available at:
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lisp-lcaf-08
>=20
> A diff from the previous version is available at:
> http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-lisp-lcaf-08
>=20
>=20
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of =
submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>=20
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> I-D-Announce mailing list
> I-D-Announce@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce
> Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt


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<html><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">This update contains the =
following changes:<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><img apple-inline=3D"yes" =
id=3D"C79803F6-E87E-426A-BF98-F525CB726A2E" height=3D"158" width=3D"471" =
apple-width=3D"yes" apple-height=3D"yes" =
src=3D"cid:9529B49A-940B-45B9-9D0E-A6BF1AEC1C1D@sbx05323.losgaca.wayport.n=
et" class=3D""><br class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Thanks,</div><div class=3D"">Dino</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">On Apr 3, 2015, at 1:18 =
PM, <a href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a> wrote:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">A New Internet-Draft is available from the =
on-line Internet-Drafts directories.<br class=3D"">This draft is a work =
item of the Locator/ID Separation Protocol Working Group of the IETF.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Title &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; : LISP Canonical Address Format (LCAF)<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Authors &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; : Dino Farinacci<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Dave Meyer<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Job Snijders<br class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>Filename =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;: draft-ietf-lisp-lcaf-08.txt<br =
class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>Pages &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; : 36<br class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>Date =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;: 2015-04-03<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Abstract:<br class=3D"">&nbsp; This draft defines a canonical =
address format encoding used in LISP<br class=3D"">&nbsp; control =
messages and in the encoding of lookup keys for the LISP<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; Mapping Database System.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">The IETF datatracker status page for this =
draft is:<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lisp-lcaf/" =
class=3D"">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lisp-lcaf/</a><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">There's also a htmlized version available =
at:<br class=3D"">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lisp-lcaf-08<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">A diff from the previous version is available =
at:<br =
class=3D"">http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-lisp-lcaf-08<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Please note that it may take a =
couple of minutes from the time of submission<br class=3D"">until the =
htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Internet-Drafts are also available by =
anonymous FTP at:<br class=3D"">ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/<br =
class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">I-D-Announce mailing list<br =
class=3D"">I-D-Announce@ietf.org<br =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce<br =
class=3D"">Internet-Draft directories: =
http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html<br class=3D"">or =
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt<br class=3D""></blockquote><br =
class=3D""></div></div></body></html>=

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From nobody Mon Apr  6 03:54:24 2015
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From: Ronald Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>
To: Luigi Iannone <ggx@gigix.net>
Thread-Topic: [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01
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Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2015 10:53:58 +0000
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Cc: LISP mailing list list <lisp@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01
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Hi Luigi,

I am not suggesting that discussion of cache scaling and control overhead b=
e dropped. This discussion is very helpful to the reader.

I suggest only that we run with Joel's proposal to add a disclaimer. The di=
sclaimer should say something like:


>>>>>> we do not know what the
> >>>> impact on cache size and control overhead will be, as the studies
> >>>> that have been made have been disputed as to their relevance to the
> >>>> core Internet case

Furthermore, we should extend the disclaimer to say:

"We do not know what the  impact of cache size and control overhead will be=
 upon {x, y, and z}".

                                                                           =
                        Ron



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Luigi Iannone [mailto:ggx@gigix.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2015 9:40 AM
> To: Ronald Bonica
> Cc: Damien Saucez; LISP mailing list list; BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A (ATTLABS)
> Subject: Re: [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01
>=20
> Hi Ron,
>=20
> > On 31 Mar 2015, at 19:48, Ronald Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net> wrote:
> >
> > Damien,
> >
> > In his email below, Joel asks:
> >
> >>>> if we modified the section to say that we do not know what the
> >>>> impact on cache size and control overhead will be, as the studies
> >>>> that have been made have been disputed as to their relevance to the
> >>>> core Internet case, would the document still meet the IESG
> >>>> requirements for evaluating the impact
> >
> > I support Joel's request, so long as the disclaimer is complete.
>=20
> Agreed that we need to clarify (via a disclaimer) what are the assumption=
s of
> the studies, and that outsides these assumptions we have no information.
>=20
>=20
> > If cache size and control overhead have impact, they must have impact
> upon something. Do we know what they will impact? If so, tell us. If not,=
 tell
> us that.
> >
>=20
> Let me try to understand here. What you are suggesting is that any
> discussion on the scalability of cache and control overhead should be
> dropped (they are in the papers anyway), and only the aspects that have a=
n
> impact (and on what they have an impact) should be maintained.
>=20
> Is my reading correct?
>=20
> BTW, Deborah was also suggesting to simplify some sections which are
> cluttered with to much numbers. This seems to me inline with your
> suggestion (if I got it correctly).
>=20
> ciao
>=20
> Luigi
>=20
>=20
> >
> > Ron
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Damien Saucez [mailto:damien.saucez@gmail.com]
> >> Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 7:19 PM
> >> To: Ronald Bonica
> >> Cc: Joel Halpern; Brian Haberman; BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A (ATTLABS);
> LISP
> >> mailing list list
> >> Subject: Re: [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01
> >>
> >> Ron,
> >>
> >> As one of the authors I can say I am not frustrated :-)
> >>
> >> We are looking on how to address in the best way the comments of this
> >> thread.
> >>
> >> Just that it is unrealistic to hope a new full study on the cache
> >> size from research partners as such a study takes a lot of time and
> >> resources (to produce the experimentation, then to get reviewed in a
> >> conference or journal and finally get published) and would not change
> >> any conclusion with regards to the analytical studies reference in
> >> the draft already and that draw general conclusions.
> >>
> >> The best solution could be to ask your customers to provide me the
> >> necessary information so that I could evaluate the impact of LISP for
> >> their needs. Without that, I am afraid that the only thing that we
> >> can reasonably provide is theoretical/analytical studies.
> >>
> >> The disclaimer you propose to add is just incorrect. It is not true
> >> that we don't know the impact of cache size. Actually, in the draft,
> >> we already reference the analytical study [CCD12] that demonstrates
> >> analytically that it is possible to link cache size, traffic pattern, =
and miss
> rate.
> >>
> >> Here is the paragraph present in the draft:
> >>
> >> [CCD12]  generalizes the caching discussion and proposes an analytic
> >>   model for the EID-to-RLOC cache size when prefix-level traffic has a
> >>   stationary generating process.  The model shows that miss rate can b=
e
> >>   accurately predicted from the EID-to-RLOC cache size and a small set
> >>   of easily measurable traffic parameters, meaning that operators can
> >>   provision the EID-to-RLOC cache of their ITRs according to the miss
> >>   rate they want to achieve for their given traffic.
> >>
> >> That is clear enough for me and unless someone can prove the model
> >> wrong I am perfectly fine with this observation that is supported by
> empirical data.
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >>
> >> Damien Saucez
> >>
> >> On 30 Mar 2015, at 17:17, Ronald Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Brian, Deborah,
> >>>
> >>> I realize that the authors are frustrated. Maybe we can run with
> >>> Joel's
> >> proposal if we make the disclaimer complete.
> >>>
> >>> Shouldn't the disclaimer read something like, "We do not know the
> >>> impact
> >> of cache size and control overhead on {x, y, z}", where x, y and z mig=
ht be:
> >>>
> >>> - LISP scaling
> >>> - LISP security
> >>> - LISP resiliency
> >>> - other ???
> >>>
> >>> Given that, might we draw some conclusions regarding LISP's
> applicability?
> >>>
> >>>                           Ron
> >>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: lisp [mailto:lisp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joel M.
> >>>> Halpern
> >>>> Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2015 9:55 PM
> >>>> To: Brian Haberman; BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A (ATTLABS)
> >>>> Cc: LISP mailing list list
> >>>> Subject: Re: [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01
> >>>>
> >>>> Brian, Deborah, if we modified the section to say that we do not
> >>>> know what the impact on cache size and control overhead will be, as
> >>>> the studies that have been made have been disputed as to their
> >>>> relevance to the core Internet case, would the document still meet
> >>>> the IESG requirements for evaluating the impact.  I don't want to
> >>>> ask the authors if they can live with a certain change if that
> >>>> change will cause other necessary reviewers to complain.
> >>>>
> >>>> I do not see it as sensible to hold up the publication of this and
> >>>> the other LISP work while researchers go off to see if they can
> >>>> calculate
> >> better results.
> >>>> Particularly not when publishing this document is required to do
> >>>> other
> >> work.
> >>>>
> >>>> Yours,
> >>>> Joel
> >>>>
> >>>> On 3/29/15 9:50 PM, Ross Callon wrote:
> >>>>> I suppose that there are two options:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 1. Admit that we have no clue what the cache size or control
> >>>>> overhead will be.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 2. Repeat the cited studies, but with a pessimistic (worse case)
> >>>>> rather than optimistic (better than best case) assumption about
> >>>>> cache granularity.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The second option would allow us to actually have some idea what
> >>>>> would happen if LISP were deployed on an Internet-wide scale, but
> >>>>> would of course take more time and more work.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Ross
> >>>>>
> >>>>> PS: I will be offline at meetings all of this week, so I might be
> >>>>> a bit slower to respond for the next few days.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Joel M. Halpern
> >>>>> [mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com] Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2015 9:36 PM
> >> To:
> >>>>> Ross Callon; Luigi Iannone; LISP mailing list list Cc:
> >>>>> draft-ietf-lisp-impact@tools.ietf.org Subject: Re: [lisp] WG Last
> >>>>> Call
> >>>>> draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Putting aside the TBD (which of course needs to be fixed),  I have
> >>>>> trouble figuring out what you want us to say about the main issue
> >>>>> in your review.  On the one hand, this is the very issue that we
> >>>>> have been asked to comment on, and on the other hand you say that
> >>>>> we don't know. What do you think it is reasoanble to say?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Yours, Joel
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On 3/29/15 9:03 PM, Ross Callon wrote:
> >>>>>> Generally I think that this document needs more work before it
> >>>>>> will be ready to submit for publication. Some comments on
> >>>>>> draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> First of all, I assume that the TBD at the end of section 3 will
> >>>>>> be fixed. This reads:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> TBD: add a paragraph to explain the operational difference while
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> dealing with a pull model instead of a push.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Also in section 3, the third paragraph begins:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> In addition, Iannone and Bonaventure [IB07] show that the number
> >>>>>> of
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> mapping entries that must be handled by an ITR of a campus
> >>>>>> network
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> with 10,000 users is limited to few tens of thousands, and does
> >>>>>> not
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> represent more than 3 to 4 Megabytes of memory.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Reference [IB07] is of course:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Iannone, L. and O. Bonaventure, "On the cost of caching
> >>>>>> locator/id mappings", In
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Proc. ACM CoNEXT 2007, December 2007.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> This paper states:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> In our analysis, we assume that the granularity of the
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> EID-to-RLOC mapping is the prefix blocks assigned by
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> RIRs. We call it /BGP granularity. In particular, we
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> used the list of prefixes made available by the iPlane
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Project [15], containing around 240,000 entries. Using
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> /BGP granularity means that each EID is first mapped
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> on a /BGP prefix. The cache will thus contain /BGP
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> to RLOC mappings.2 This is a natural choice, since
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> routing locators are supposed to be border routers.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The authors should be aware that there is some aggregation /
> >>>>>> summarization being done in the operation of BGP routing, and
> >>>>>> that the granularity of routes which appear in the default-free
> >>>>>> BGP routing tables is fundamentally different from the
> >>>>>> granularity of enterprise network / ISP boundaries across which
> >>>>>> traffic is exchanged.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The same paragraph cites Kim et al.  [KIF11], which is Kim, J.,
> >>>>>> Iannone, L., and A. Feldmann, "Deep dive into the lisp cache and
> >>>>>> what isps should know about it", In Proc.  IFIP Networking 2011,
> >>>>>> May
> >> 2011.
> >>>>>> From this document:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> In addition, we use a local BGP prefixes
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> database, fed with the list of BGP prefixes published by the
> >>>>>> iPlane Project [17].
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The database is used to group EID-to-RLOCs mappings with the
> >>>>>> granularity of
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> existing BGP prefixes, because, as for today, there is no
> >>>>>> sufficient information
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> to predict what will be the granularity of mappings in a
> >>>>>> LISP-enabled Internet.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I agree that "there is not sufficient information to predict what
> >>>>>> will be the granularity of mappings in a LISP-enabled Internet".
> >>>>>> However, not knowing what the mapping granularity will be does
> >>>>>> not justify using an extremely optimistic guess, and then acting
> >>>>>> as if the results are meaningful. These assumptions are clearly
> >>>>>> off by some number of orders of magnitude, but how many orders
> of
> >>>>>> magnitude is unknown. We will note that the current internet
> >>>>>> default-free routing table includes a few hundred thousand
> >>>>>> entries (roughly twice the
> >>>>>> 240,000 entries that existed when this study was done).
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> For example, we might assume that the intended global deployment
> >>>>>> model involves xTRs at the boundary between enterprise networks
> >> and
> >>>>>> service providers, and might note that there are several million
> >>>>>> companies in the USA alone (most of these are relatively small
> >>>>>> companies, of course). Thus there may be very roughly on the
> >>>>>> order of a hundred million or so companies worldwide. If each one
> >>>>>> had a separate entry in the mapping table, then the number of
> >>>>>> entries will be nearly 1,000 times larger than BGP-prefix granular=
ity.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Section 4 mentions as one possible use of LISP: "enable mobility
> >>>>>> of subscriber end points". If individual end points are
> >>>>>> advertised into LISP, then the granularity of the mapping table
> >>>>>> may be on the order of individual systems. In this case the
> >>>>>> number of mapping table entries that could exist globally might
> >>>>>> be on the same order of magnitude as the number of people in the
> >>>>>> world, or very roughly
> >>>>>> 7 Billion entries. This would suggest that the mapping table
> >>>>>> might be roughly 30,000 times finer grained than was assumed in
> >>>>>> the referenced studies.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I don't see how we can accurately predict the control plane load
> >>>>>> of LISP without some sense for what the granularity of the
> >>>>>> mapping table will be. It should however be possible to bound the
> >>>>>> control plane load. The referenced studies give a lower bound on
> >>>>>> possible control plane load (it won't be any less), but give
> >>>>>> neither an accurate measurement nor an upper bound on the
> >>>>>> potential control plane load. I don't think that the document can
> >>>>>> claim to explain the impact of LISP without there being an
> >>>>>> attempt to measure an upper bound on the control plane load.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Finally, perhaps I missed it but I didn't see any discussion of
> >>>>>> the volume of overhead related to OAM traffic used for liveness
> >>>>>> detection (the need for ITR's to determine the reachability of ETR=
's).
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Thanks, Ross
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> *From:*lisp [mailto:lisp-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Luigi
> >>>>>> Iannone *Sent:* Monday, March 09, 2015 10:22 AM *To:* LISP
> >>>>>> mailing list list *Cc:* draft-ietf-lisp-impact@tools.ietf.org
> >>>>>> *Subject:* [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Hi All,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> the authors of the LISP Impact document
> >>>>>> [https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01] requested
> >>>>>> the Work Group Last Call.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> This email starts a WG Last Call, to end March 30th, 2015.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Because usually the pre-meeting period is already overloaded, the
> >>>>>> LC duration is set to three weeks.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Please review this updated WG document and let the WG know if
> you
> >>>>>> agree that it is ready for handing to the AD.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> If you have objections, please state your reasons why, and
> >>>>>> explain what it would take to address your concerns.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Any raised issue will be discussed during the WG meeting in Dallas=
.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Thanks
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Luigi & Joel
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ lisp
> >> mailing
> >>>> list
> >>>>>> lisp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lisp
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> lisp mailing list
> >>>> lisp@ietf.org
> >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lisp
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> lisp mailing list
> >>> lisp@ietf.org
> >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lisp
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > lisp mailing list
> > lisp@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lisp


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From: Luigi Iannone <ggx@gigix.net>
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Subject: Re: [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01
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HI Ron,


> On 06 Apr 2015, at 12:53, Ronald Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net> wrote:
>=20
> Hi Luigi,
>=20
> I am not suggesting that discussion of cache scaling and control =
overhead be dropped. This discussion is very helpful to the reader.
>=20

Thanks. We will try to streamline it a little bit, as suggested by =
Deborah.

> I suggest only that we run with Joel's proposal to add a disclaimer.

Agreed.
The final form of the disclaimer will depend on the updated content of =
the document (see previous point).

ciao

Luigi


> The disclaimer should say something like:
>=20
>=20
>>>>>>> we do not know what the
>>>>>> impact on cache size and control overhead will be, as the studies
>>>>>> that have been made have been disputed as to their relevance to =
the
>>>>>> core Internet case
>=20
> Furthermore, we should extend the disclaimer to say:
>=20
> "We do not know what the  impact of cache size and control overhead =
will be upon {x, y, and z}".
>=20
>                                                                        =
                           Ron
>=20
>=20
>=20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Luigi Iannone [mailto:ggx@gigix.net]
>> Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2015 9:40 AM
>> To: Ronald Bonica
>> Cc: Damien Saucez; LISP mailing list list; BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A =
(ATTLABS)
>> Subject: Re: [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01
>>=20
>> Hi Ron,
>>=20
>>> On 31 Mar 2015, at 19:48, Ronald Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> Damien,
>>>=20
>>> In his email below, Joel asks:
>>>=20
>>>>>> if we modified the section to say that we do not know what the
>>>>>> impact on cache size and control overhead will be, as the studies
>>>>>> that have been made have been disputed as to their relevance to =
the
>>>>>> core Internet case, would the document still meet the IESG
>>>>>> requirements for evaluating the impact
>>>=20
>>> I support Joel's request, so long as the disclaimer is complete.
>>=20
>> Agreed that we need to clarify (via a disclaimer) what are the =
assumptions of
>> the studies, and that outsides these assumptions we have no =
information.
>>=20
>>=20
>>> If cache size and control overhead have impact, they must have =
impact
>> upon something. Do we know what they will impact? If so, tell us. If =
not, tell
>> us that.
>>>=20
>>=20
>> Let me try to understand here. What you are suggesting is that any
>> discussion on the scalability of cache and control overhead should be
>> dropped (they are in the papers anyway), and only the aspects that =
have an
>> impact (and on what they have an impact) should be maintained.
>>=20
>> Is my reading correct?
>>=20
>> BTW, Deborah was also suggesting to simplify some sections which are
>> cluttered with to much numbers. This seems to me inline with your
>> suggestion (if I got it correctly).
>>=20
>> ciao
>>=20
>> Luigi
>>=20
>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Ron
>>>=20
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Damien Saucez [mailto:damien.saucez@gmail.com]
>>>> Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 7:19 PM
>>>> To: Ronald Bonica
>>>> Cc: Joel Halpern; Brian Haberman; BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A (ATTLABS);
>> LISP
>>>> mailing list list
>>>> Subject: Re: [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01
>>>>=20
>>>> Ron,
>>>>=20
>>>> As one of the authors I can say I am not frustrated :-)
>>>>=20
>>>> We are looking on how to address in the best way the comments of =
this
>>>> thread.
>>>>=20
>>>> Just that it is unrealistic to hope a new full study on the cache
>>>> size from research partners as such a study takes a lot of time and
>>>> resources (to produce the experimentation, then to get reviewed in =
a
>>>> conference or journal and finally get published) and would not =
change
>>>> any conclusion with regards to the analytical studies reference in
>>>> the draft already and that draw general conclusions.
>>>>=20
>>>> The best solution could be to ask your customers to provide me the
>>>> necessary information so that I could evaluate the impact of LISP =
for
>>>> their needs. Without that, I am afraid that the only thing that we
>>>> can reasonably provide is theoretical/analytical studies.
>>>>=20
>>>> The disclaimer you propose to add is just incorrect. It is not true
>>>> that we don't know the impact of cache size. Actually, in the =
draft,
>>>> we already reference the analytical study [CCD12] that demonstrates
>>>> analytically that it is possible to link cache size, traffic =
pattern, and miss
>> rate.
>>>>=20
>>>> Here is the paragraph present in the draft:
>>>>=20
>>>> [CCD12]  generalizes the caching discussion and proposes an =
analytic
>>>>  model for the EID-to-RLOC cache size when prefix-level traffic has =
a
>>>>  stationary generating process.  The model shows that miss rate can =
be
>>>>  accurately predicted from the EID-to-RLOC cache size and a small =
set
>>>>  of easily measurable traffic parameters, meaning that operators =
can
>>>>  provision the EID-to-RLOC cache of their ITRs according to the =
miss
>>>>  rate they want to achieve for their given traffic.
>>>>=20
>>>> That is clear enough for me and unless someone can prove the model
>>>> wrong I am perfectly fine with this observation that is supported =
by
>> empirical data.
>>>>=20
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>=20
>>>> Damien Saucez
>>>>=20
>>>> On 30 Mar 2015, at 17:17, Ronald Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net> =
wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>>> Brian, Deborah,
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I realize that the authors are frustrated. Maybe we can run with
>>>>> Joel's
>>>> proposal if we make the disclaimer complete.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Shouldn't the disclaimer read something like, "We do not know the
>>>>> impact
>>>> of cache size and control overhead on {x, y, z}", where x, y and z =
might be:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> - LISP scaling
>>>>> - LISP security
>>>>> - LISP resiliency
>>>>> - other ???
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Given that, might we draw some conclusions regarding LISP's
>> applicability?
>>>>>=20
>>>>>                          Ron
>>>>>=20
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: lisp [mailto:lisp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joel M.
>>>>>> Halpern
>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2015 9:55 PM
>>>>>> To: Brian Haberman; BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A (ATTLABS)
>>>>>> Cc: LISP mailing list list
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Brian, Deborah, if we modified the section to say that we do not
>>>>>> know what the impact on cache size and control overhead will be, =
as
>>>>>> the studies that have been made have been disputed as to their
>>>>>> relevance to the core Internet case, would the document still =
meet
>>>>>> the IESG requirements for evaluating the impact.  I don't want to
>>>>>> ask the authors if they can live with a certain change if that
>>>>>> change will cause other necessary reviewers to complain.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> I do not see it as sensible to hold up the publication of this =
and
>>>>>> the other LISP work while researchers go off to see if they can
>>>>>> calculate
>>>> better results.
>>>>>> Particularly not when publishing this document is required to do
>>>>>> other
>>>> work.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Yours,
>>>>>> Joel
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> On 3/29/15 9:50 PM, Ross Callon wrote:
>>>>>>> I suppose that there are two options:
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> 1. Admit that we have no clue what the cache size or control
>>>>>>> overhead will be.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> 2. Repeat the cited studies, but with a pessimistic (worse case)
>>>>>>> rather than optimistic (better than best case) assumption about
>>>>>>> cache granularity.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> The second option would allow us to actually have some idea what
>>>>>>> would happen if LISP were deployed on an Internet-wide scale, =
but
>>>>>>> would of course take more time and more work.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> Ross
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> PS: I will be offline at meetings all of this week, so I might =
be
>>>>>>> a bit slower to respond for the next few days.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Joel M. Halpern
>>>>>>> [mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com] Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2015 9:36 =
PM
>>>> To:
>>>>>>> Ross Callon; Luigi Iannone; LISP mailing list list Cc:
>>>>>>> draft-ietf-lisp-impact@tools.ietf.org Subject: Re: [lisp] WG =
Last
>>>>>>> Call
>>>>>>> draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> Putting aside the TBD (which of course needs to be fixed),  I =
have
>>>>>>> trouble figuring out what you want us to say about the main =
issue
>>>>>>> in your review.  On the one hand, this is the very issue that we
>>>>>>> have been asked to comment on, and on the other hand you say =
that
>>>>>>> we don't know. What do you think it is reasoanble to say?
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> Yours, Joel
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> On 3/29/15 9:03 PM, Ross Callon wrote:
>>>>>>>> Generally I think that this document needs more work before it
>>>>>>>> will be ready to submit for publication. Some comments on
>>>>>>>> draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01:
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> First of all, I assume that the TBD at the end of section 3 =
will
>>>>>>>> be fixed. This reads:
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> TBD: add a paragraph to explain the operational difference =
while
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> dealing with a pull model instead of a push.
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> Also in section 3, the third paragraph begins:
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> In addition, Iannone and Bonaventure [IB07] show that the =
number
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> mapping entries that must be handled by an ITR of a campus
>>>>>>>> network
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> with 10,000 users is limited to few tens of thousands, and does
>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> represent more than 3 to 4 Megabytes of memory.
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> Reference [IB07] is of course:
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> Iannone, L. and O. Bonaventure, "On the cost of caching
>>>>>>>> locator/id mappings", In
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> Proc. ACM CoNEXT 2007, December 2007.
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> This paper states:
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> In our analysis, we assume that the granularity of the
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> EID-to-RLOC mapping is the prefix blocks assigned by
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> RIRs. We call it /BGP granularity. In particular, we
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> used the list of prefixes made available by the iPlane
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> Project [15], containing around 240,000 entries. Using
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> /BGP granularity means that each EID is first mapped
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> on a /BGP prefix. The cache will thus contain /BGP
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> to RLOC mappings.2 This is a natural choice, since
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> routing locators are supposed to be border routers.
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> The authors should be aware that there is some aggregation /
>>>>>>>> summarization being done in the operation of BGP routing, and
>>>>>>>> that the granularity of routes which appear in the default-free
>>>>>>>> BGP routing tables is fundamentally different from the
>>>>>>>> granularity of enterprise network / ISP boundaries across which
>>>>>>>> traffic is exchanged.
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> The same paragraph cites Kim et al.  [KIF11], which is Kim, J.,
>>>>>>>> Iannone, L., and A. Feldmann, "Deep dive into the lisp cache =
and
>>>>>>>> what isps should know about it", In Proc.  IFIP Networking =
2011,
>>>>>>>> May
>>>> 2011.
>>>>>>>> =46rom this document:
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> In addition, we use a local BGP prefixes
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> database, fed with the list of BGP prefixes published by the
>>>>>>>> iPlane Project [17].
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> The database is used to group EID-to-RLOCs mappings with the
>>>>>>>> granularity of
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> existing BGP prefixes, because, as for today, there is no
>>>>>>>> sufficient information
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> to predict what will be the granularity of mappings in a
>>>>>>>> LISP-enabled Internet.
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> I agree that "there is not sufficient information to predict =
what
>>>>>>>> will be the granularity of mappings in a LISP-enabled =
Internet".
>>>>>>>> However, not knowing what the mapping granularity will be does
>>>>>>>> not justify using an extremely optimistic guess, and then =
acting
>>>>>>>> as if the results are meaningful. These assumptions are clearly
>>>>>>>> off by some number of orders of magnitude, but how many orders
>> of
>>>>>>>> magnitude is unknown. We will note that the current internet
>>>>>>>> default-free routing table includes a few hundred thousand
>>>>>>>> entries (roughly twice the
>>>>>>>> 240,000 entries that existed when this study was done).
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> For example, we might assume that the intended global =
deployment
>>>>>>>> model involves xTRs at the boundary between enterprise networks
>>>> and
>>>>>>>> service providers, and might note that there are several =
million
>>>>>>>> companies in the USA alone (most of these are relatively small
>>>>>>>> companies, of course). Thus there may be very roughly on the
>>>>>>>> order of a hundred million or so companies worldwide. If each =
one
>>>>>>>> had a separate entry in the mapping table, then the number of
>>>>>>>> entries will be nearly 1,000 times larger than BGP-prefix =
granularity.
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> Section 4 mentions as one possible use of LISP: "enable =
mobility
>>>>>>>> of subscriber end points". If individual end points are
>>>>>>>> advertised into LISP, then the granularity of the mapping table
>>>>>>>> may be on the order of individual systems. In this case the
>>>>>>>> number of mapping table entries that could exist globally might
>>>>>>>> be on the same order of magnitude as the number of people in =
the
>>>>>>>> world, or very roughly
>>>>>>>> 7 Billion entries. This would suggest that the mapping table
>>>>>>>> might be roughly 30,000 times finer grained than was assumed in
>>>>>>>> the referenced studies.
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> I don't see how we can accurately predict the control plane =
load
>>>>>>>> of LISP without some sense for what the granularity of the
>>>>>>>> mapping table will be. It should however be possible to bound =
the
>>>>>>>> control plane load. The referenced studies give a lower bound =
on
>>>>>>>> possible control plane load (it won't be any less), but give
>>>>>>>> neither an accurate measurement nor an upper bound on the
>>>>>>>> potential control plane load. I don't think that the document =
can
>>>>>>>> claim to explain the impact of LISP without there being an
>>>>>>>> attempt to measure an upper bound on the control plane load.
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> Finally, perhaps I missed it but I didn't see any discussion of
>>>>>>>> the volume of overhead related to OAM traffic used for liveness
>>>>>>>> detection (the need for ITR's to determine the reachability of =
ETR's).
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> Thanks, Ross
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> *From:*lisp [mailto:lisp-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Luigi
>>>>>>>> Iannone *Sent:* Monday, March 09, 2015 10:22 AM *To:* LISP
>>>>>>>> mailing list list *Cc:* draft-ietf-lisp-impact@tools.ietf.org
>>>>>>>> *Subject:* [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> the authors of the LISP Impact document
>>>>>>>> [https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01] =
requested
>>>>>>>> the Work Group Last Call.
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> This email starts a WG Last Call, to end March 30th, 2015.
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> Because usually the pre-meeting period is already overloaded, =
the
>>>>>>>> LC duration is set to three weeks.
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> Please review this updated WG document and let the WG know if
>> you
>>>>>>>> agree that it is ready for handing to the AD.
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> If you have objections, please state your reasons why, and
>>>>>>>> explain what it would take to address your concerns.
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> Any raised issue will be discussed during the WG meeting in =
Dallas.
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> Luigi & Joel
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ lisp
>>>> mailing
>>>>>> list
>>>>>>>> lisp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lisp
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> lisp mailing list
>>>>>> lisp@ietf.org
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lisp
>>>>>=20
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> lisp mailing list
>>>>> lisp@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lisp
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> lisp mailing list
>>> lisp@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lisp
>=20


From nobody Wed Apr  8 17:29:46 2015
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From: Ross Callon <rcallon@juniper.net>
To: Damien Saucez <damien.saucez@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01
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Subject: Re: [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01
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> See [CCD12], this document provides a generic model that works for
> any desegregation assumption as long as the map-cache is implemented
> with LRU.
>
> Damien Saucez

[CCD12] is of course:=20

   Coras, F., Cabellos-Aparicio, A., and J. Domingo-Pascual, "An Analytical=
 Model
   for the LISP Cache Size", In Proc. IFIP Networking 2012, May 2012.

I just finished reading this through. To me the analytic model looks mostly=
 fine, except for one issue mentioned below, but the results (in terms of h=
ow large a cache is needed) depends upon the assumption about the granulari=
ty of the cache.=20


Near the end of section 2 of this paper (the last paragraph before section =
3) includes the text:=20
  =20
   "... One can easily observe that the map-cache is most efficient in=20
   situations when destination EIDs present high temporal and/or spatial=20
   locality and that its size depends upon the diversity of the visited=20
   destinations. As a result, a cache's performance depends entirely on=20
   its provisioned size and on traffic characteristics."

Of course the desired size of the cache depends upon the likelihood, for a =
given cache size, that the next EID that comes along will match an entry wh=
ich is already in the cache, which depends on the size of the entries in th=
e cache. [As one absurd extreme example, if you had a single default route =
in the cache, every EID would match it and the cache could be of size 1. A =
less absurd but still slightly extreme example, if you could get away with =
nothing finer than a /8 in the cache, then 256 entries would be the largest=
 possible cache size.]  Thus the text is true for any given granularity of =
entries in the cache. The paper might more accurately have said "As a resul=
t, a cache's performance depends entirely on its provisioned size, on traff=
ic characteristics, and on the granularity of cache entries".=20

In section 4.1, the second paragraph begins:=20

   Both for the evaluation of the working set in section 3.3 and for
   the cache performance evaluation to be presented in section 4.3,
   IP addresses had to be mapped to their corresponding prefixes. We
   considered EID-prefixes to be of BGP-prefix granularity".=20

Of course some assumption of the granularity of prefixes is needed. It is c=
lear that what we assume for the granularity affects the result. I don't ag=
ree that BGP-prefix granularity is the right assumption.=20


The other issue that I found with the paper refers to a later sentence in t=
he same second paragraph of section 4.1:

   The only preprocessing we performed was to filter out more specific=20
   prefixes. Generally such prefixes are used for traffic engineering=20
   purposes. However, the LISP protocol provides mechanisms for a more
   efficient management of these functions that do not require EID-prefix
   de-aggregation.=20

My understanding of this is that what some service providers do today is to=
 announce some more specific prefixes (that match a PA prefix assigned to t=
hem) at some interconnection points and some different more specific prefix=
es at other interconnection points in order to draw in traffic where they w=
ant to draw it in. If with LISP you were to map all of these prefixes in on=
e mapping table entry then you would be mapping them all to the same RLOC (=
or set of RLOCs). Ignoring the issue that any one large ISP could have thou=
sands of PE routers (with thousands more CE routers attached to them), if a=
ll of these were mapped to one RLOC then you would not be able to do traffi=
c engineering on a finer scale (unless you were to do deep packet inspectio=
n, which I believe is not the plan). Thus I understand how LISP might poten=
tially prevent these more specific prefixes from being advertised into the =
global routing table, but they will still need to be in the mapping table.

Thanks, Ross

-----Original Message-----
From: Damien Saucez [mailto:damien.saucez@gmail.com]=20
Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2015 3:16 AM
To: Ross Callon
Cc: Joel Halpern; Luigi Iannone; LISP mailing list list; draft-ietf-lisp-im=
pact@tools.ietf.org
Subject: Re: [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01


On 30 Mar 2015, at 03:50, Ross Callon <rcallon@juniper.net> wrote:

> I suppose that there are two options:
>=20
> 1. Admit that we have no clue what the cache size or control overhead wil=
l be.
>=20

See [CCD12], this document provides a generic model that works for
any desegregation assumption as long as the map-cache is implemented
with LRU.

Damien Saucez

> 2. Repeat the cited studies, but with a pessimistic (worse case) rather t=
han optimistic (better than best case) assumption about cache granularity.=
=20
>=20
> The second option would allow us to actually have some idea what would ha=
ppen if LISP were deployed on an Internet-wide scale, but would of course t=
ake more time and more work.=20
>=20
> Ross
>=20
> PS: I will be offline at meetings all of this week, so I might be a bit s=
lower to respond for the next few days. =20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joel M. Halpern [mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com]=20
> Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2015 9:36 PM
> To: Ross Callon; Luigi Iannone; LISP mailing list list
> Cc: draft-ietf-lisp-impact@tools.ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01
>=20
> Putting aside the TBD (which of course needs to be fixed),  I have=20
> trouble figuring out what you want us to say about the main issue in=20
> your review.  On the one hand, this is the very issue that we have been=20
> asked to comment on, and on the other hand you say that we don't know.=20
> What do you think it is reasoanble to say?
>=20
> Yours,
> Joel
>=20
> On 3/29/15 9:03 PM, Ross Callon wrote:
>> Generally I think that this document needs more work before it will be
>> ready to submit for publication. Some comments on draft-ietf-lisp-impact=
-01:
>>=20
>> First of all, I assume that the TBD at the end of section 3 will be
>> fixed. This reads:
>>=20
>>  TBD: add a paragraph to explain the operational difference while
>>=20
>>  dealing with a pull model instead of a push.
>>=20
>> Also in section 3, the third paragraph begins:
>>=20
>>  In addition, Iannone and Bonaventure [IB07] show that the number of
>>=20
>>  mapping entries that must be handled by an ITR of a campus network
>>=20
>>  with 10,000 users is limited to few tens of thousands, and does not
>>=20
>>  represent more than 3 to 4 Megabytes of memory.
>>=20
>> Reference [IB07] is of course:
>>=20
>>             Iannone, L. and O. Bonaventure, "On the cost of caching
>> locator/id mappings", In
>>=20
>>             Proc. ACM CoNEXT 2007, December 2007.
>>=20
>> This paper states:
>>=20
>>   In our analysis, we assume that the granularity of the
>>=20
>>   EID-to-RLOC mapping is the prefix blocks assigned by
>>=20
>>   RIRs. We call it /BGP granularity. In particular, we
>>=20
>>   used the list of prefixes made available by the iPlane
>>=20
>>   Project [15], containing around 240,000 entries. Using
>>=20
>>   /BGP granularity means that each EID is first mapped
>>=20
>>   on a /BGP prefix. The cache will thus contain /BGP
>>=20
>>   to RLOC mappings.2 This is a natural choice, since
>>=20
>>   routing locators are supposed to be border routers.
>>=20
>> The authors should be aware that there is some aggregation /
>> summarization being done in the operation of BGP routing, and that the
>> granularity of routes which appear in the default-free BGP routing
>> tables is fundamentally different from the granularity of enterprise
>> network / ISP boundaries across which traffic is exchanged.
>>=20
>> The same paragraph cites Kim et al.  [KIF11], which is Kim, J., Iannone,
>> L., and A. Feldmann, "Deep dive into the lisp cache and what isps should
>> know about it", In Proc.  IFIP Networking 2011, May 2011.  From this
>> document:
>>=20
>>   In addition, we use a local BGP prefixes
>>=20
>>   database, fed with the list of BGP prefixes published by the iPlane
>> Project [17].
>>=20
>>   The database is used to group EID-to-RLOCs mappings with the
>> granularity of
>>=20
>>   existing BGP prefixes, because, as for today, there is no
>> sufficient information
>>=20
>>   to predict what will be the granularity of mappings in a
>> LISP-enabled Internet.
>>=20
>> I agree that "there is not sufficient information to predict what will
>> be the granularity of mappings in a LISP-enabled Internet". However, not
>> knowing what the mapping granularity will be does not justify using an
>> extremely optimistic guess, and then acting as if the results are
>> meaningful. These assumptions are clearly off by some number of orders
>> of magnitude, but how many orders of magnitude is unknown. We will note
>> that the current internet default-free routing table includes a few
>> hundred thousand entries (roughly twice the 240,000 entries that existed
>> when this study was done).
>>=20
>> For example, we might assume that the intended global deployment model
>> involves xTRs at the boundary between enterprise networks and service
>> providers, and might note that there are several million companies in
>> the USA alone (most of these are relatively small companies, of course).
>> Thus there may be very roughly on the order of a hundred million or so
>> companies worldwide. If each one had a separate entry in the mapping
>> table, then the number of entries will be nearly 1,000 times larger than
>> BGP-prefix granularity.
>>=20
>> Section 4 mentions as one possible use of LISP: "enable mobility of
>> subscriber end points". If individual end points are advertised into
>> LISP, then the granularity of the mapping table may be on the order of
>> individual systems. In this case the number of mapping table entries
>> that could exist globally might be on the same order of magnitude as the
>> number of people in the world, or very roughly 7 Billion entries. This
>> would suggest that the mapping table might be roughly 30,000 times finer
>> grained than was assumed in the referenced studies.
>>=20
>> I don't see how we can accurately predict the control plane load of LISP
>> without some sense for what the granularity of the mapping table will
>> be. It should however be possible to bound the control plane load. The
>> referenced studies give a lower bound on possible control plane load (it
>> won't be any less), but give neither an accurate measurement nor an
>> upper bound on the potential control plane load. I don't think that the
>> document can claim to explain the impact of LISP without there being an
>> attempt to measure an upper bound on the control plane load.
>>=20
>> Finally, perhaps I missed it but I didn't see any discussion of the
>> volume of overhead related to OAM traffic used for liveness detection
>> (the need for ITR's to determine the reachability of ETR's).
>>=20
>> Thanks, Ross
>>=20
>> *From:*lisp [mailto:lisp-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Luigi Iannone
>> *Sent:* Monday, March 09, 2015 10:22 AM
>> *To:* LISP mailing list list
>> *Cc:* draft-ietf-lisp-impact@tools.ietf.org
>> *Subject:* [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01
>>=20
>> Hi All,
>>=20
>> the authors of the LISP Impact document
>> [https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01] requested the
>> Work Group Last Call.
>>=20
>> This email starts a WG Last Call, to end March 30th, 2015.
>>=20
>> Because usually the pre-meeting period is already overloaded, the LC
>> duration is set to three weeks.
>>=20
>> Please review this updated WG document and let the WG know if you agree
>> that it is ready for handing to the AD.
>>=20
>> If you have objections, please state your reasons why, and explain what
>> it would take to address your concerns.
>>=20
>> Any raised issue will be discussed during the WG meeting in Dallas.
>>=20
>> Thanks
>>=20
>>=20
>> Luigi & Joel
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> lisp mailing list
>> lisp@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lisp
>>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> lisp mailing list
> lisp@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lisp


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From: "Darrel Lewis (darlewis)" <darlewis@cisco.com>
To: Ross Callon <rcallon@juniper.net>
Thread-Topic: [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01
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Subject: Re: [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01
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On Apr 8, 2015, at 5:29 PM, Ross Callon <rcallon@juniper.net> wrote:

> My understanding of this is that what some service providers do today is =
to announce some more specific prefixes (that match a PA prefix assigned to=
 them) at some interconnection points and some different more specific pref=
ixes at other interconnection points in order to draw in traffic where they=
 want to draw it in. If with LISP you were to map all of these prefixes in =
one mapping table entry then you would be mapping them all to the same RLOC=
 (or set of RLOCs).=20


This is not correct, there is no requirement for an ETR to provide the same=
 answer to one requesting ITR as it does another.  Quite the opposite, repl=
ies can be customized depending on many possible variables.

-Darrel=


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Subject: Re: [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01
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And to add to what Darrel said, the policy control can be provided at =
the LISP site or by the MSP (Mapping Service Provider). It depends who =
is jockeying for control or who wants features out-sourced.

Dino

> On Apr 9, 2015, at 10:51 AM, Darrel Lewis (darlewis) =
<darlewis@cisco.com> wrote:
>=20
>=20
> On Apr 8, 2015, at 5:29 PM, Ross Callon <rcallon@juniper.net> wrote:
>=20
>> My understanding of this is that what some service providers do today =
is to announce some more specific prefixes (that match a PA prefix =
assigned to them) at some interconnection points and some different more =
specific prefixes at other interconnection points in order to draw in =
traffic where they want to draw it in. If with LISP you were to map all =
of these prefixes in one mapping table entry then you would be mapping =
them all to the same RLOC (or set of RLOCs).=20
>=20
>=20
> This is not correct, there is no requirement for an ETR to provide the =
same answer to one requesting ITR as it does another.  Quite the =
opposite, replies can be customized depending on many possible =
variables.
>=20
> -Darrel
> _______________________________________________
> lisp mailing list
> lisp@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lisp


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From: Ross Callon <rcallon@juniper.net>
To: Dino Farinacci <farinacci@gmail.com>, Darrel Lewis <darlewis@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01
Thread-Index: AQHQWnSPQbPJi+hgVUqTeQIKhdZvrp00M8ZggAArMgCAAAJBgIAFE3wAgAqKBzCAASgAAIAABvIAgABnF8A=
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2015 03:29:00 +0000
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Cc: LISP mailing list list <lisp@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-lisp-impact@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-lisp-impact@tools.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01
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I understand that the ETR could send a different response to different ITRs=
.=20

However, there is a reason that some more specific prefixes are advertised =
(in addition to a covering less specific prefix). One reason is that some s=
ervice providers want incoming traffic delivered to them via different inte=
rconnects based on the destination. Even if you are doing traffic engineeri=
ng with LISP, then this reason doesn't go away, and isn't solved by sending=
 only the less specific prefix in the map reply. Of course there are other =
reasons to advertise more specific prefixes, and on the most part these don=
't go away either. I therefore feel that it was an error for the study disc=
ussed in [CCD12] to "... filter out more specific prefixes".=20

Perhaps a more serious problem is that "BGP-prefix granularity" is not like=
ly to be even remotely close to correct, with or without filtering out more=
 specifics. =20

Ross

-----Original Message-----
From: Dino Farinacci [mailto:farinacci@gmail.com]=20
Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2015 2:16 PM
To: Darrel Lewis
Cc: Ross Callon; LISP mailing list list; draft-ietf-lisp-impact@tools.ietf.=
org
Subject: Re: [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01

And to add to what Darrel said, the policy control can be provided at the L=
ISP site or by the MSP (Mapping Service Provider). It depends who is jockey=
ing for control or who wants features out-sourced.

Dino

> On Apr 9, 2015, at 10:51 AM, Darrel Lewis (darlewis) <darlewis@cisco.com>=
 wrote:
>=20
>=20
> On Apr 8, 2015, at 5:29 PM, Ross Callon <rcallon@juniper.net> wrote:
>=20
>> My understanding of this is that what some service providers do today is=
 to announce some more specific prefixes (that match a PA prefix assigned t=
o them) at some interconnection points and some different more specific pre=
fixes at other interconnection points in order to draw in traffic where the=
y want to draw it in. If with LISP you were to map all of these prefixes in=
 one mapping table entry then you would be mapping them all to the same RLO=
C (or set of RLOCs).=20
>=20
>=20
> This is not correct, there is no requirement for an ETR to provide the sa=
me answer to one requesting ITR as it does another.  Quite the opposite, re=
plies can be customized depending on many possible variables.
>=20
> -Darrel
> _______________________________________________
> lisp mailing list
> lisp@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lisp


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To: Ross Callon <rcallon@juniper.net>
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Subject: Re: [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01
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> However, there is a reason that some more specific prefixes are advertised=
 (in addition to a covering less specific prefix). One reason is that some s=
ervice providers want incoming traffic delivered to them via different inter=
connects based on the destination. Even if you are doing traffic

Right but if you want that with LISP you can return a coarse prefix in a Map=
-Reply with different priority values to different ITRs. It doesn't require f=
or more-specifics.=20

> engineering with LISP, then this reason doesn't go away, and isn't solved b=
y sending only the less specific prefix in the map reply. Of course there ar=
e other

Yes it is solved. With a push protocol to instruct traffic to come one way o=
r the other is only done with multiple prefixes where with LISP it can be do=
ne with the same prefix but is tailored on a per source or request basis.=20=


> reasons to advertise more specific prefixes, and on the most part these do=
n't go away either. I therefore feel that it was an error for the study disc=
ussed in [CCD12] to "... filter out more specific prefixes".

It doesn't follow at all to me.=20

Dino=


From nobody Mon Apr 13 11:04:36 2015
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From: Ross Callon <rcallon@juniper.net>
To: Dino Farinacci <farinacci@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01
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Subject: Re: [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01
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Dino, I am not sure that you read my earlier email quite the way that I mea=
nt to explain the issue. One reason for more specifics being advertised is =
that some ISPs don't want incoming traffic split by source, but rather by d=
estination. Probably to agree on how this would work with LISP we need to s=
it down in person and discuss this with white boards and pictures.=20

To me it seems like there are two ways forward here: One option is to go wi=
th what Joel suggested earlier, and add to the document something along the=
 lines that the scaling numbers are disputed and we don't actually know how=
 it scales. The other option would be for at least the two of us to sit dow=
n in person as soon as we get a chance (no later than Prague, hopefully ear=
lier if either of us gets a trip to the other's neck of the woods). I don't=
 currently have any trips planned to California, but could let you know if =
I do and try to plan to stay an extra day to go over this.=20

Thanks, Ross

-----Original Message-----
From: Dino Farinacci [mailto:farinacci@gmail.com]=20
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2015 2:16 AM
To: Ross Callon
Cc: Darrel Lewis; LISP mailing list list; draft-ietf-lisp-impact@tools.ietf=
.org
Subject: Re: [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01

> However, there is a reason that some more specific prefixes are advertise=
d (in addition to a covering less specific prefix). One reason is that some=
 service providers want incoming traffic delivered to them via different in=
terconnects based on the destination. Even if you are doing traffic

Right but if you want that with LISP you can return a coarse prefix in a Ma=
p-Reply with different priority values to different ITRs. It doesn't requir=
e for more-specifics.=20

> engineering with LISP, then this reason doesn't go away, and isn't solved=
 by sending only the less specific prefix in the map reply. Of course there=
 are other

Yes it is solved. With a push protocol to instruct traffic to come one way =
or the other is only done with multiple prefixes where with LISP it can be =
done with the same prefix but is tailored on a per source or request basis.=
=20

> reasons to advertise more specific prefixes, and on the most part these d=
on't go away either. I therefore feel that it was an error for the study di=
scussed in [CCD12] to "... filter out more specific prefixes".

It doesn't follow at all to me.=20

Dino


From nobody Mon Apr 13 11:52:42 2015
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Hi Ross,

Apologies for the belated reply, it was a busy week. First of all, 
thanks for taking the time to read the paper and for the good comments. 
More inline.

On 4/8/15 5:29 PM, Ross Callon wrote:
>> See [CCD12], this document provides a generic model that works for
>> any desegregation assumption as long as the map-cache is implemented
>> with LRU.
>>
>> Damien Saucez
> [CCD12] is of course:
>
>     Coras, F., Cabellos-Aparicio, A., and J. Domingo-Pascual, "An 
> Analytical Model
>     for the LISP Cache Size", In Proc. IFIP Networking 2012, May 2012.
>
> I just finished reading this through. To me the analytic model looks 
> mostly fine, except for one issue mentioned below, but the results (in 
> terms of how large a cache is needed) depends upon the assumption 
> about the granularity of the cache.

I'm pretty sure you mean the granularity of the entries cached (the 
width of the EID-prefixes). And this is indeed so because in light of 
the fixed size of the 32-bit (or 128-bit) address space, granularity 
controls the number of prefixes and thereby the number of destinations 
traffic could have. But note that the relevant metric for a cache is the 
number of destinations rather than the granularity.
>
> Near the end of section 2 of this paper (the last paragraph before 
> section 3) includes the text:
>         "... One can easily observe that the map-cache is most 
> efficient in
>     situations when destination EIDs present high temporal and/or spatial
>     locality and that its size depends upon the diversity of the visited
>     destinations. As a result, a cache's performance depends entirely on
>     its provisioned size and on traffic characteristics."
>
> Of course the desired size of the cache depends upon the likelihood, 
> for a given cache size, that the next EID that comes along will match 
> an entry which is already in the cache, which depends on the size of 
> the entries in the cache. [As one absurd extreme example, if you had a 
> single default route in the cache, every EID would match it and the 
> cache could be of size 1. A less absurd but still slightly extreme 
> example, if you could get away with nothing finer than a /8 in the 
> cache, then 256 entries would be the largest possible cache size.]  
> Thus the text is true for any given granularity of entries in the 
> cache. The paper might more accurately have said "As a result, a 
> cache's performance depends entirely on its provisioned size, on 
> traffic characteristics, and on the granularity of cache entries".

There are two things mixed in here: i) the parameters influencing cache 
performance and ii) assumptions to practically evaluate a cache's 
performance.

One of the traffic's characteristics is the number of destinations it 
has. As explained before, when dealing with EID-prefix caches, 
granularity influences the cardinality of the set of destinations, so 
its effect is indirectly considered. Therefore, I believe, our statement 
is general enough.

Regarding the second point, when setting up an experiment to evaluate 
map-cache performance, one has to consider the granularity of 
EID-prefixes. As you've noted, we've used BGP-prefix granularity to fix 
the number of destinations in our experiments. Understandably, this is 
debatable, but more on it lower.
>
> In section 4.1, the second paragraph begins:
>
>     Both for the evaluation of the working set in section 3.3 and for
>     the cache performance evaluation to be presented in section 4.3,
>     IP addresses had to be mapped to their corresponding prefixes. We
>     considered EID-prefixes to be of BGP-prefix granularity".
>
> Of course some assumption of the granularity of prefixes is needed. It 
> is clear that what we assume for the granularity affects the result. I 
> don't agree that BGP-prefix granularity is the right assumption.

I've gleaned from your previous emails that you believe aggregation of 
PA assignments hides the actual size of the EID-prefix namespace. I 
guess this is why you disagree with our assumption. The goal our 
experiments was to understand the performance of LISP map-caches if edge 
networks already owning their address space (PI address owners) were to 
switch to LISP. Speculating if and how PA owning edge networks are to 
switch to LISP was outside the scope.

However, an important thing to consider is that cache performance is not 
primarily driven by the number of destinations but by the their 
popularity distribution. To give an absurd example: even if there are 
billions of destinations in the mapping system, if a site's users only 
visit google and facebook, the site's map-cache will only need 2 
entries. In fact, we've showed in [1] that the cache model can be 
entirely determined from the popularity distribution. Thereby, to 
understand a site's map-cache asymptotic scalability it is enough to 
characterize the popularity distribution of the EID-prefixes visited.

So, how does the popularity distribution look like? Since we cannot 
compute the popularity of EID-prefixes without any assumptions on 
granularity, we can instead look at web traffic as a good approximation. 
This has been shown to be power law, often referred to as Zipf-like (see 
[2]), i.e, most of the traffic goes to a small set of destinations while 
the majority of destinations are sent few or no packets at all. Note 
though that we obtained a similar law for our traces when considering 
EID-prefixes to be of BGP-prefix granularity and this law has been shown 
to hold in many other fields (see [1] and the references therein).

All this means that cache miss rates decrease very fast with cache size 
(see eq. (11) in [1]), but the exact 'speed' will depend on the 
characteristics of each site. In the worst case, if for some strange 
reason the popularity distribution becomes flat (i.e, all EID-prefixes 
are equally popular) then the map-cache size will have to be 
proportional to the number of EID-prefixes to ensure a reasonably good 
hit-rate.

[1] F. Coras, J. Domingo, A. Cabellos. "On the scalability of LISP 
mappings caches". Technical Report. URL: 
http://personals.ac.upc.edu/fcoras/publications/2015-fcoras-scalability.pdf
[2] Breslau, Lee, Pei Cao, Li Fan, Graham Phillips, and Scott Shenker. 
"Web caching and Zipf-like distributions: Evidence and implications." 
INFOCOM, in Proceedings. IEEE, vol. 1, pp. 126-134, 1999.

>
> The other issue that I found with the paper refers to a later sentence 
> in the same second paragraph of section 4.1:
>
>     The only preprocessing we performed was to filter out more specific
>     prefixes. Generally such prefixes are used for traffic engineering
>     purposes. However, the LISP protocol provides mechanisms for a more
>     efficient management of these functions that do not require 
> EID-prefix
>     de-aggregation.
>
> My understanding of this is that what some service providers do today 
> is to announce some more specific prefixes (that match a PA prefix 
> assigned to them) at some interconnection points and some different 
> more specific prefixes at other interconnection points in order to 
> draw in traffic where they want to draw it in.

If the more specifics are meant only for steering the traffic, then LISP 
offers better mechanisms for ingress TE (with only one mapping) by means 
of RLOC priority and weights. If instead you are suggesting those more 
specifics are advertised per *individual client* (which you seem to do 
lower) then we're back at the point above. That is, we might be 
underestimating the size of the EID-prefix namespace. Out of curiosity, 
do you happen to know any reference suggesting this is the norm rather 
than the exception?

> If with LISP you were to map all of these prefixes in one mapping 
> table entry then you would be mapping them all to the same RLOC (or 
> set of RLOCs). Ignoring the issue that any one large ISP could have 
> thousands of PE routers (with thousands more CE routers attached to 
> them), if all of these were mapped to one RLOC then you would not be 
> able to do traffic engineering on a finer scale (unless you were to do 
> deep packet inspection, which I believe is not the plan). Thus I 
> understand how LISP might potentially prevent these more specific 
> prefixes from being advertised into the global routing table, but they 
> will still need to be in the mapping table.
>
Here you seem to assume that all of the ISP's PA clients will turn on 
LISP on their CPEs (I really hope you're right ;-) ). If that happens, 
yes, all their prefixes will need to be registered in the mapping 
system. But again, what matters is popularity, not the absolute number 
of EID-prefixes. That is, there's nothing saying that a site sending 
traffic to the PA prefix will have to store all of the ISP's clients 
prefixes. Most probably it will cache just one.

Also, there's an alternative here. The ISP could turn LISP on its 
upstream ASBRs and their customers, since they're PA, would be 
unaffected. In this case, any site communicating with the ISP's clients 
would need to store just one mapping and the ISP would take care of 
routing the decapsulated packets to their intended destination. This is 
somewhat similar, to Instagram and Netflix being EIDs in Amazon's 
datacenters.

Thanks,
Florin
> Thanks, Ross
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Damien Saucez [mailto:damien.saucez@gmail.com]
> Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2015 3:16 AM
> To: Ross Callon
> Cc: Joel Halpern; Luigi Iannone; LISP mailing list list; 
> draft-ietf-lisp-impact@tools.ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01
>
>
> On 30 Mar 2015, at 03:50, Ross Callon <rcallon@juniper.net> wrote:
>
>> I suppose that there are two options:
>>
>> 1. Admit that we have no clue what the cache size or control overhead 
>> will be.
>>
> See [CCD12], this document provides a generic model that works for
> any desegregation assumption as long as the map-cache is implemented
> with LRU.
>
> Damien Saucez
>
>> 2. Repeat the cited studies, but with a pessimistic (worse case) 
>> rather than optimistic (better than best case) assumption about cache 
>> granularity.
>>
>> The second option would allow us to actually have some idea what 
>> would happen if LISP were deployed on an Internet-wide scale, but 
>> would of course take more time and more work.
>>
>> Ross
>>
>> PS: I will be offline at meetings all of this week, so I might be a 
>> bit slower to respond for the next few days.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Joel M. Halpern [mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com]
>> Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2015 9:36 PM
>> To: Ross Callon; Luigi Iannone; LISP mailing list list
>> Cc: draft-ietf-lisp-impact@tools.ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01
>>
>> Putting aside the TBD (which of course needs to be fixed),  I have
>> trouble figuring out what you want us to say about the main issue in
>> your review.  On the one hand, this is the very issue that we have been
>> asked to comment on, and on the other hand you say that we don't know.
>> What do you think it is reasoanble to say?
>>
>> Yours,
>> Joel
>>
>> On 3/29/15 9:03 PM, Ross Callon wrote:
>>> Generally I think that this document needs more work before it will be
>>> ready to submit for publication. Some comments on 
>>> draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01:
>>>
>>> First of all, I assume that the TBD at the end of section 3 will be
>>> fixed. This reads:
>>>
>>>   TBD: add a paragraph to explain the operational difference while
>>>
>>>   dealing with a pull model instead of a push.
>>>
>>> Also in section 3, the third paragraph begins:
>>>
>>>   In addition, Iannone and Bonaventure [IB07] show that the number of
>>>
>>>   mapping entries that must be handled by an ITR of a campus network
>>>
>>>   with 10,000 users is limited to few tens of thousands, and does not
>>>
>>>   represent more than 3 to 4 Megabytes of memory.
>>>
>>> Reference [IB07] is of course:
>>>
>>>              Iannone, L. and O. Bonaventure, "On the cost of caching
>>> locator/id mappings", In
>>>
>>>              Proc. ACM CoNEXT 2007, December 2007.
>>>
>>> This paper states:
>>>
>>>    In our analysis, we assume that the granularity of the
>>>
>>>    EID-to-RLOC mapping is the prefix blocks assigned by
>>>
>>>    RIRs. We call it /BGP granularity. In particular, we
>>>
>>>    used the list of prefixes made available by the iPlane
>>>
>>>    Project [15], containing around 240,000 entries. Using
>>>
>>>    /BGP granularity means that each EID is first mapped
>>>
>>>    on a /BGP prefix. The cache will thus contain /BGP
>>>
>>>    to RLOC mappings.2 This is a natural choice, since
>>>
>>>    routing locators are supposed to be border routers.
>>>
>>> The authors should be aware that there is some aggregation /
>>> summarization being done in the operation of BGP routing, and that the
>>> granularity of routes which appear in the default-free BGP routing
>>> tables is fundamentally different from the granularity of enterprise
>>> network / ISP boundaries across which traffic is exchanged.
>>>
>>> The same paragraph cites Kim et al.  [KIF11], which is Kim, J., 
>>> Iannone,
>>> L., and A. Feldmann, "Deep dive into the lisp cache and what isps 
>>> should
>>> know about it", In Proc.  IFIP Networking 2011, May 2011. From this
>>> document:
>>>
>>>    In addition, we use a local BGP prefixes
>>>
>>>    database, fed with the list of BGP prefixes published by the iPlane
>>> Project [17].
>>>
>>>    The database is used to group EID-to-RLOCs mappings with the
>>> granularity of
>>>
>>>    existing BGP prefixes, because, as for today, there is no
>>> sufficient information
>>>
>>>    to predict what will be the granularity of mappings in a
>>> LISP-enabled Internet.
>>>
>>> I agree that "there is not sufficient information to predict what will
>>> be the granularity of mappings in a LISP-enabled Internet". However, 
>>> not
>>> knowing what the mapping granularity will be does not justify using an
>>> extremely optimistic guess, and then acting as if the results are
>>> meaningful. These assumptions are clearly off by some number of orders
>>> of magnitude, but how many orders of magnitude is unknown. We will note
>>> that the current internet default-free routing table includes a few
>>> hundred thousand entries (roughly twice the 240,000 entries that 
>>> existed
>>> when this study was done).
>>>
>>> For example, we might assume that the intended global deployment model
>>> involves xTRs at the boundary between enterprise networks and service
>>> providers, and might note that there are several million companies in
>>> the USA alone (most of these are relatively small companies, of 
>>> course).
>>> Thus there may be very roughly on the order of a hundred million or so
>>> companies worldwide. If each one had a separate entry in the mapping
>>> table, then the number of entries will be nearly 1,000 times larger 
>>> than
>>> BGP-prefix granularity.
>>>
>>> Section 4 mentions as one possible use of LISP: "enable mobility of
>>> subscriber end points". If individual end points are advertised into
>>> LISP, then the granularity of the mapping table may be on the order of
>>> individual systems. In this case the number of mapping table entries
>>> that could exist globally might be on the same order of magnitude as 
>>> the
>>> number of people in the world, or very roughly 7 Billion entries. This
>>> would suggest that the mapping table might be roughly 30,000 times 
>>> finer
>>> grained than was assumed in the referenced studies.
>>>
>>> I don't see how we can accurately predict the control plane load of 
>>> LISP
>>> without some sense for what the granularity of the mapping table will
>>> be. It should however be possible to bound the control plane load. The
>>> referenced studies give a lower bound on possible control plane load 
>>> (it
>>> won't be any less), but give neither an accurate measurement nor an
>>> upper bound on the potential control plane load. I don't think that the
>>> document can claim to explain the impact of LISP without there being an
>>> attempt to measure an upper bound on the control plane load.
>>>
>>> Finally, perhaps I missed it but I didn't see any discussion of the
>>> volume of overhead related to OAM traffic used for liveness detection
>>> (the need for ITR's to determine the reachability of ETR's).
>>>
>>> Thanks, Ross
>>>
>>> *From:*lisp [mailto:lisp-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Luigi Iannone
>>> *Sent:* Monday, March 09, 2015 10:22 AM
>>> *To:* LISP mailing list list
>>> *Cc:* draft-ietf-lisp-impact@tools.ietf.org
>>> *Subject:* [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01
>>>
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> the authors of the LISP Impact document
>>> [https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01] requested the
>>> Work Group Last Call.
>>>
>>> This email starts a WG Last Call, to end March 30th, 2015.
>>>
>>> Because usually the pre-meeting period is already overloaded, the LC
>>> duration is set to three weeks.
>>>
>>> Please review this updated WG document and let the WG know if you agree
>>> that it is ready for handing to the AD.
>>>
>>> If you have objections, please state your reasons why, and explain what
>>> it would take to address your concerns.
>>>
>>> Any raised issue will be discussed during the WG meeting in Dallas.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>>
>>> Luigi & Joel
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> lisp mailing list
>>> lisp@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lisp
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> lisp mailing list
>> lisp@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lisp









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Subject: Re: [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01
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> Dino, I am not sure that you read my earlier email quite the way that =
I meant to explain the issue. One=20

Well I read the words you wrote.  ;-)

> reason for more specifics being advertised is that some ISPs don't =
want incoming traffic split by source, but rather by destination. =
Probably to agree on how this would work with LISP we need to sit down =
in person and discuss this with white boards and pictures.=20

What ISPs want more than anything else is balanced load. And if they =
have to vary from that point, they go more granular. And that usually =
means by source or 5-tuple hashing in the data-plane.

> To me it seems like there are two ways forward here: One option is to =
go with what Joel suggested earlier, and add to the document something =
along the lines that the scaling numbers are disputed and we don't =
actually know how it scales. The other option would be for at least the =
two of us to sit down in=20

I agree.=20

We don=E2=80=99t know how ANYTHING scales until it gets there. Where =
=E2=80=9Cthere=E2=80=9D is some point. Is BGP scaling? So this will =
always come down to subjective opinion and perspective from different =
points of view.

> person as soon as we get a chance (no later than Prague, hopefully =
earlier if either of us gets a trip to the other's neck of the woods). I =
don't currently have any trips planned to California, but could let you =
know if I do and try to plan to stay an extra day to go over this.=20

We should do that in any case, but we shouldn=E2=80=99t block or slow =
down the process. We can do this in Prague but go with Joel=E2=80=99s =
suggestion for now.

Dino

>=20
> Thanks, Ross
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dino Farinacci [mailto:farinacci@gmail.com]=20
> Sent: Friday, April 10, 2015 2:16 AM
> To: Ross Callon
> Cc: Darrel Lewis; LISP mailing list list; =
draft-ietf-lisp-impact@tools.ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01
>=20
>> However, there is a reason that some more specific prefixes are =
advertised (in addition to a covering less specific prefix). One reason =
is that some service providers want incoming traffic delivered to them =
via different interconnects based on the destination. Even if you are =
doing traffic
>=20
> Right but if you want that with LISP you can return a coarse prefix in =
a Map-Reply with different priority values to different ITRs. It doesn't =
require for more-specifics.=20
>=20
>> engineering with LISP, then this reason doesn't go away, and isn't =
solved by sending only the less specific prefix in the map reply. Of =
course there are other
>=20
> Yes it is solved. With a push protocol to instruct traffic to come one =
way or the other is only done with multiple prefixes where with LISP it =
can be done with the same prefix but is tailored on a per source or =
request basis.=20
>=20
>> reasons to advertise more specific prefixes, and on the most part =
these don't go away either. I therefore feel that it was an error for =
the study discussed in [CCD12] to "... filter out more specific =
prefixes".
>=20
> It doesn't follow at all to me.=20
>=20
> Dino


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From: Ross Callon <rcallon@juniper.net>
To: Dino Farinacci <farinacci@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01
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Cc: LISP mailing list list <lisp@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-lisp-impact@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-lisp-impact@tools.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01
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From: Dino Farinacci <farinacci@gmail.com>
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Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2015 14:06:07 -0700
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To: Ross Callon <rcallon@juniper.net>
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Subject: Re: [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01
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>> ...We should do that in any case, but we shouldn=E2=80=99t block or =
slow down the
>> process. We can do this in Prague but go with Joel=E2=80=99s =
suggestion for now.
>=20
> Makes sense. I think that Florin's email hints at a very small edit to =
Joel's suggestion, which I will mention in reply to his email.=20

Ack Ross. Thanks.

Dino

>=20
> Ross
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dino Farinacci [mailto:farinacci@gmail.com]=20
> Sent: Monday, April 13, 2015 3:58 PM
> To: Ross Callon
> Cc: Darrel Lewis; LISP mailing list list; =
draft-ietf-lisp-impact@tools.ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01
>=20
>> Dino, I am not sure that you read my earlier email quite the way that =
I meant to explain the issue. One=20
>=20
> Well I read the words you wrote.  ;-)
>=20
>> reason for more specifics being advertised is that some ISPs don't =
want incoming traffic split by source, but rather by destination. =
Probably to agree on how this would work with LISP we need to sit down =
in person and discuss this with white boards and pictures.=20
>=20
> What ISPs want more than anything else is balanced load. And if they =
have to vary from that point, they go more granular. And that usually =
means by source or 5-tuple hashing in the data-plane.
>=20
>> To me it seems like there are two ways forward here: One option is to =
go with what Joel suggested earlier, and add to the document something =
along the lines that the scaling numbers are disputed and we don't =
actually know how it scales. The other option would be for at least the =
two of us to sit down in=20
>=20
> I agree.=20
>=20
> We don=E2=80=99t know how ANYTHING scales until it gets there. Where =
=E2=80=9Cthere=E2=80=9D is some point. Is BGP scaling? So this will =
always come down to subjective opinion and perspective from different =
points of view.
>=20
>> person as soon as we get a chance (no later than Prague, hopefully =
earlier if either of us gets a trip to the other's neck of the woods). I =
don't currently have any trips planned to California, but could let you =
know if I do and try to plan to stay an extra day to go over this.=20
>=20
> We should do that in any case, but we shouldn=E2=80=99t block or slow =
down the process. We can do this in Prague but go with Joel=E2=80=99s =
suggestion for now.
>=20
> Dino
>=20
>>=20
>> Thanks, Ross
>>=20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Dino Farinacci [mailto:farinacci@gmail.com]=20
>> Sent: Friday, April 10, 2015 2:16 AM
>> To: Ross Callon
>> Cc: Darrel Lewis; LISP mailing list list; =
draft-ietf-lisp-impact@tools.ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01
>>=20
>>> However, there is a reason that some more specific prefixes are =
advertised (in addition to a covering less specific prefix). One reason =
is that some service providers want incoming traffic delivered to them =
via different interconnects based on the destination. Even if you are =
doing traffic
>>=20
>> Right but if you want that with LISP you can return a coarse prefix =
in a Map-Reply with different priority values to different ITRs. It =
doesn't require for more-specifics.=20
>>=20
>>> engineering with LISP, then this reason doesn't go away, and isn't =
solved by sending only the less specific prefix in the map reply. Of =
course there are other
>>=20
>> Yes it is solved. With a push protocol to instruct traffic to come =
one way or the other is only done with multiple prefixes where with LISP =
it can be done with the same prefix but is tailored on a per source or =
request basis.=20
>>=20
>>> reasons to advertise more specific prefixes, and on the most part =
these don't go away either. I therefore feel that it was an error for =
the study discussed in [CCD12] to "... filter out more specific =
prefixes".
>>=20
>> It doesn't follow at all to me.=20
>>=20
>> Dino
>=20


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From: Ross Callon <rcallon@juniper.net>
To: Florin Coras <fcoras@ac.upc.edu>, Damien Saucez <damien.saucez@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01
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Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2015 21:15:46 +0000
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Subject: Re: [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01
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> I'm pretty sure you mean the granularity of the entries cached (the=20
> width of the EID-prefixes).

Yes. I have been summarizing this using the term "granularity of the cache"=
 or "cache granularity", but of course I mean the granularity / "width" of =
the entries which are maintained in the cache.=20

> The goal our experiments was to understand the
> performance of LISP map-caches if edge=20
> networks already owning their address space (PI address owners) were to=20
> switch to LISP. Speculating if and how PA owning edge networks are to=20
> switch to LISP was outside the scope.

Yes, I think that this text gets to the point of my biggest issue. I am con=
cerned that people may miss this assumption in the study and think that it =
pertains to a potential wider deployment of LISP.=20

Perhaps the note that we need in the impact document would include somethin=
g like: "[CCD12] analyzes the performance of the LISP map cache if only the=
 current edge networks already owning their address space (PI address owner=
s) were to switch to LISP. It is not known what the performance implication=
s would be if LISP were more widely deployed, or if the availability of LIS=
P or other factors were to cause a significant increase in the number of PI=
 addresses."=20

Thanks, Ross

-----Original Message-----
From: Florin Coras [mailto:fcoras@ac.upc.edu]=20
Sent: Monday, April 13, 2015 2:52 PM
To: Ross Callon; Damien Saucez
Cc: Joel Halpern; Luigi Iannone; LISP mailing list list; draft-ietf-lisp-im=
pact@tools.ietf.org
Subject: Re: [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01

Hi Ross,

Apologies for the belated reply, it was a busy week. First of all,=20
thanks for taking the time to read the paper and for the good comments.=20
More inline.

On 4/8/15 5:29 PM, Ross Callon wrote:
>> See [CCD12], this document provides a generic model that works for
>> any desegregation assumption as long as the map-cache is implemented
>> with LRU.
>>
>> Damien Saucez
> [CCD12] is of course:
>
>     Coras, F., Cabellos-Aparicio, A., and J. Domingo-Pascual, "An=20
> Analytical Model
>     for the LISP Cache Size", In Proc. IFIP Networking 2012, May 2012.
>
> I just finished reading this through. To me the analytic model looks=20
> mostly fine, except for one issue mentioned below, but the results (in=20
> terms of how large a cache is needed) depends upon the assumption=20
> about the granularity of the cache.

I'm pretty sure you mean the granularity of the entries cached (the=20
width of the EID-prefixes). And this is indeed so because in light of=20
the fixed size of the 32-bit (or 128-bit) address space, granularity=20
controls the number of prefixes and thereby the number of destinations=20
traffic could have. But note that the relevant metric for a cache is the=20
number of destinations rather than the granularity.
>
> Near the end of section 2 of this paper (the last paragraph before=20
> section 3) includes the text:
>         "... One can easily observe that the map-cache is most=20
> efficient in
>     situations when destination EIDs present high temporal and/or spatial
>     locality and that its size depends upon the diversity of the visited
>     destinations. As a result, a cache's performance depends entirely on
>     its provisioned size and on traffic characteristics."
>
> Of course the desired size of the cache depends upon the likelihood,=20
> for a given cache size, that the next EID that comes along will match=20
> an entry which is already in the cache, which depends on the size of=20
> the entries in the cache. [As one absurd extreme example, if you had a=20
> single default route in the cache, every EID would match it and the=20
> cache could be of size 1. A less absurd but still slightly extreme=20
> example, if you could get away with nothing finer than a /8 in the=20
> cache, then 256 entries would be the largest possible cache size.] =20
> Thus the text is true for any given granularity of entries in the=20
> cache. The paper might more accurately have said "As a result, a=20
> cache's performance depends entirely on its provisioned size, on=20
> traffic characteristics, and on the granularity of cache entries".

There are two things mixed in here: i) the parameters influencing cache=20
performance and ii) assumptions to practically evaluate a cache's=20
performance.

One of the traffic's characteristics is the number of destinations it=20
has. As explained before, when dealing with EID-prefix caches,=20
granularity influences the cardinality of the set of destinations, so=20
its effect is indirectly considered. Therefore, I believe, our statement=20
is general enough.

Regarding the second point, when setting up an experiment to evaluate=20
map-cache performance, one has to consider the granularity of=20
EID-prefixes. As you've noted, we've used BGP-prefix granularity to fix=20
the number of destinations in our experiments. Understandably, this is=20
debatable, but more on it lower.
>
> In section 4.1, the second paragraph begins:
>
>     Both for the evaluation of the working set in section 3.3 and for
>     the cache performance evaluation to be presented in section 4.3,
>     IP addresses had to be mapped to their corresponding prefixes. We
>     considered EID-prefixes to be of BGP-prefix granularity".
>
> Of course some assumption of the granularity of prefixes is needed. It=20
> is clear that what we assume for the granularity affects the result. I=20
> don't agree that BGP-prefix granularity is the right assumption.

I've gleaned from your previous emails that you believe aggregation of=20
PA assignments hides the actual size of the EID-prefix namespace. I=20
guess this is why you disagree with our assumption. The goal our=20
experiments was to understand the performance of LISP map-caches if edge=20
networks already owning their address space (PI address owners) were to=20
switch to LISP. Speculating if and how PA owning edge networks are to=20
switch to LISP was outside the scope.

However, an important thing to consider is that cache performance is not=20
primarily driven by the number of destinations but by the their=20
popularity distribution. To give an absurd example: even if there are=20
billions of destinations in the mapping system, if a site's users only=20
visit google and facebook, the site's map-cache will only need 2=20
entries. In fact, we've showed in [1] that the cache model can be=20
entirely determined from the popularity distribution. Thereby, to=20
understand a site's map-cache asymptotic scalability it is enough to=20
characterize the popularity distribution of the EID-prefixes visited.

So, how does the popularity distribution look like? Since we cannot=20
compute the popularity of EID-prefixes without any assumptions on=20
granularity, we can instead look at web traffic as a good approximation.=20
This has been shown to be power law, often referred to as Zipf-like (see=20
[2]), i.e, most of the traffic goes to a small set of destinations while=20
the majority of destinations are sent few or no packets at all. Note=20
though that we obtained a similar law for our traces when considering=20
EID-prefixes to be of BGP-prefix granularity and this law has been shown=20
to hold in many other fields (see [1] and the references therein).

All this means that cache miss rates decrease very fast with cache size=20
(see eq. (11) in [1]), but the exact 'speed' will depend on the=20
characteristics of each site. In the worst case, if for some strange=20
reason the popularity distribution becomes flat (i.e, all EID-prefixes=20
are equally popular) then the map-cache size will have to be=20
proportional to the number of EID-prefixes to ensure a reasonably good=20
hit-rate.

[1] F. Coras, J. Domingo, A. Cabellos. "On the scalability of LISP=20
mappings caches". Technical Report. URL:=20
http://personals.ac.upc.edu/fcoras/publications/2015-fcoras-scalability.pdf
[2] Breslau, Lee, Pei Cao, Li Fan, Graham Phillips, and Scott Shenker.=20
"Web caching and Zipf-like distributions: Evidence and implications."=20
INFOCOM, in Proceedings. IEEE, vol. 1, pp. 126-134, 1999.

>
> The other issue that I found with the paper refers to a later sentence=20
> in the same second paragraph of section 4.1:
>
>     The only preprocessing we performed was to filter out more specific
>     prefixes. Generally such prefixes are used for traffic engineering
>     purposes. However, the LISP protocol provides mechanisms for a more
>     efficient management of these functions that do not require=20
> EID-prefix
>     de-aggregation.
>
> My understanding of this is that what some service providers do today=20
> is to announce some more specific prefixes (that match a PA prefix=20
> assigned to them) at some interconnection points and some different=20
> more specific prefixes at other interconnection points in order to=20
> draw in traffic where they want to draw it in.

If the more specifics are meant only for steering the traffic, then LISP=20
offers better mechanisms for ingress TE (with only one mapping) by means=20
of RLOC priority and weights. If instead you are suggesting those more=20
specifics are advertised per *individual client* (which you seem to do=20
lower) then we're back at the point above. That is, we might be=20
underestimating the size of the EID-prefix namespace. Out of curiosity,=20
do you happen to know any reference suggesting this is the norm rather=20
than the exception?

> If with LISP you were to map all of these prefixes in one mapping=20
> table entry then you would be mapping them all to the same RLOC (or=20
> set of RLOCs). Ignoring the issue that any one large ISP could have=20
> thousands of PE routers (with thousands more CE routers attached to=20
> them), if all of these were mapped to one RLOC then you would not be=20
> able to do traffic engineering on a finer scale (unless you were to do=20
> deep packet inspection, which I believe is not the plan). Thus I=20
> understand how LISP might potentially prevent these more specific=20
> prefixes from being advertised into the global routing table, but they=20
> will still need to be in the mapping table.
>
Here you seem to assume that all of the ISP's PA clients will turn on=20
LISP on their CPEs (I really hope you're right ;-) ). If that happens,=20
yes, all their prefixes will need to be registered in the mapping=20
system. But again, what matters is popularity, not the absolute number=20
of EID-prefixes. That is, there's nothing saying that a site sending=20
traffic to the PA prefix will have to store all of the ISP's clients=20
prefixes. Most probably it will cache just one.

Also, there's an alternative here. The ISP could turn LISP on its=20
upstream ASBRs and their customers, since they're PA, would be=20
unaffected. In this case, any site communicating with the ISP's clients=20
would need to store just one mapping and the ISP would take care of=20
routing the decapsulated packets to their intended destination. This is=20
somewhat similar, to Instagram and Netflix being EIDs in Amazon's=20
datacenters.

Thanks,
Florin
> Thanks, Ross
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Damien Saucez [mailto:damien.saucez@gmail.com]
> Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2015 3:16 AM
> To: Ross Callon
> Cc: Joel Halpern; Luigi Iannone; LISP mailing list list;=20
> draft-ietf-lisp-impact@tools.ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01
>
>
> On 30 Mar 2015, at 03:50, Ross Callon <rcallon@juniper.net> wrote:
>
>> I suppose that there are two options:
>>
>> 1. Admit that we have no clue what the cache size or control overhead=20
>> will be.
>>
> See [CCD12], this document provides a generic model that works for
> any desegregation assumption as long as the map-cache is implemented
> with LRU.
>
> Damien Saucez
>
>> 2. Repeat the cited studies, but with a pessimistic (worse case)=20
>> rather than optimistic (better than best case) assumption about cache=20
>> granularity.
>>
>> The second option would allow us to actually have some idea what=20
>> would happen if LISP were deployed on an Internet-wide scale, but=20
>> would of course take more time and more work.
>>
>> Ross
>>
>> PS: I will be offline at meetings all of this week, so I might be a=20
>> bit slower to respond for the next few days.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Joel M. Halpern [mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com]
>> Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2015 9:36 PM
>> To: Ross Callon; Luigi Iannone; LISP mailing list list
>> Cc: draft-ietf-lisp-impact@tools.ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01
>>
>> Putting aside the TBD (which of course needs to be fixed),  I have
>> trouble figuring out what you want us to say about the main issue in
>> your review.  On the one hand, this is the very issue that we have been
>> asked to comment on, and on the other hand you say that we don't know.
>> What do you think it is reasoanble to say?
>>
>> Yours,
>> Joel
>>
>> On 3/29/15 9:03 PM, Ross Callon wrote:
>>> Generally I think that this document needs more work before it will be
>>> ready to submit for publication. Some comments on=20
>>> draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01:
>>>
>>> First of all, I assume that the TBD at the end of section 3 will be
>>> fixed. This reads:
>>>
>>>   TBD: add a paragraph to explain the operational difference while
>>>
>>>   dealing with a pull model instead of a push.
>>>
>>> Also in section 3, the third paragraph begins:
>>>
>>>   In addition, Iannone and Bonaventure [IB07] show that the number of
>>>
>>>   mapping entries that must be handled by an ITR of a campus network
>>>
>>>   with 10,000 users is limited to few tens of thousands, and does not
>>>
>>>   represent more than 3 to 4 Megabytes of memory.
>>>
>>> Reference [IB07] is of course:
>>>
>>>              Iannone, L. and O. Bonaventure, "On the cost of caching
>>> locator/id mappings", In
>>>
>>>              Proc. ACM CoNEXT 2007, December 2007.
>>>
>>> This paper states:
>>>
>>>    In our analysis, we assume that the granularity of the
>>>
>>>    EID-to-RLOC mapping is the prefix blocks assigned by
>>>
>>>    RIRs. We call it /BGP granularity. In particular, we
>>>
>>>    used the list of prefixes made available by the iPlane
>>>
>>>    Project [15], containing around 240,000 entries. Using
>>>
>>>    /BGP granularity means that each EID is first mapped
>>>
>>>    on a /BGP prefix. The cache will thus contain /BGP
>>>
>>>    to RLOC mappings.2 This is a natural choice, since
>>>
>>>    routing locators are supposed to be border routers.
>>>
>>> The authors should be aware that there is some aggregation /
>>> summarization being done in the operation of BGP routing, and that the
>>> granularity of routes which appear in the default-free BGP routing
>>> tables is fundamentally different from the granularity of enterprise
>>> network / ISP boundaries across which traffic is exchanged.
>>>
>>> The same paragraph cites Kim et al.  [KIF11], which is Kim, J.,=20
>>> Iannone,
>>> L., and A. Feldmann, "Deep dive into the lisp cache and what isps=20
>>> should
>>> know about it", In Proc.  IFIP Networking 2011, May 2011. From this
>>> document:
>>>
>>>    In addition, we use a local BGP prefixes
>>>
>>>    database, fed with the list of BGP prefixes published by the iPlane
>>> Project [17].
>>>
>>>    The database is used to group EID-to-RLOCs mappings with the
>>> granularity of
>>>
>>>    existing BGP prefixes, because, as for today, there is no
>>> sufficient information
>>>
>>>    to predict what will be the granularity of mappings in a
>>> LISP-enabled Internet.
>>>
>>> I agree that "there is not sufficient information to predict what will
>>> be the granularity of mappings in a LISP-enabled Internet". However,=20
>>> not
>>> knowing what the mapping granularity will be does not justify using an
>>> extremely optimistic guess, and then acting as if the results are
>>> meaningful. These assumptions are clearly off by some number of orders
>>> of magnitude, but how many orders of magnitude is unknown. We will note
>>> that the current internet default-free routing table includes a few
>>> hundred thousand entries (roughly twice the 240,000 entries that=20
>>> existed
>>> when this study was done).
>>>
>>> For example, we might assume that the intended global deployment model
>>> involves xTRs at the boundary between enterprise networks and service
>>> providers, and might note that there are several million companies in
>>> the USA alone (most of these are relatively small companies, of=20
>>> course).
>>> Thus there may be very roughly on the order of a hundred million or so
>>> companies worldwide. If each one had a separate entry in the mapping
>>> table, then the number of entries will be nearly 1,000 times larger=20
>>> than
>>> BGP-prefix granularity.
>>>
>>> Section 4 mentions as one possible use of LISP: "enable mobility of
>>> subscriber end points". If individual end points are advertised into
>>> LISP, then the granularity of the mapping table may be on the order of
>>> individual systems. In this case the number of mapping table entries
>>> that could exist globally might be on the same order of magnitude as=20
>>> the
>>> number of people in the world, or very roughly 7 Billion entries. This
>>> would suggest that the mapping table might be roughly 30,000 times=20
>>> finer
>>> grained than was assumed in the referenced studies.
>>>
>>> I don't see how we can accurately predict the control plane load of=20
>>> LISP
>>> without some sense for what the granularity of the mapping table will
>>> be. It should however be possible to bound the control plane load. The
>>> referenced studies give a lower bound on possible control plane load=20
>>> (it
>>> won't be any less), but give neither an accurate measurement nor an
>>> upper bound on the potential control plane load. I don't think that the
>>> document can claim to explain the impact of LISP without there being an
>>> attempt to measure an upper bound on the control plane load.
>>>
>>> Finally, perhaps I missed it but I didn't see any discussion of the
>>> volume of overhead related to OAM traffic used for liveness detection
>>> (the need for ITR's to determine the reachability of ETR's).
>>>
>>> Thanks, Ross
>>>
>>> *From:*lisp [mailto:lisp-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Luigi Iannone
>>> *Sent:* Monday, March 09, 2015 10:22 AM
>>> *To:* LISP mailing list list
>>> *Cc:* draft-ietf-lisp-impact@tools.ietf.org
>>> *Subject:* [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01
>>>
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> the authors of the LISP Impact document
>>> [https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01] requested the
>>> Work Group Last Call.
>>>
>>> This email starts a WG Last Call, to end March 30th, 2015.
>>>
>>> Because usually the pre-meeting period is already overloaded, the LC
>>> duration is set to three weeks.
>>>
>>> Please review this updated WG document and let the WG know if you agree
>>> that it is ready for handing to the AD.
>>>
>>> If you have objections, please state your reasons why, and explain what
>>> it would take to address your concerns.
>>>
>>> Any raised issue will be discussed during the WG meeting in Dallas.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>>
>>> Luigi & Joel
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> lisp mailing list
>>> lisp@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lisp
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> lisp mailing list
>> lisp@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lisp









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Ross,

As explained in my previous email, the model is general, only the 
experimental validation makes assumptions with regards to the size of 
the EID-prefix namespace. See [1], and in particular eq. 11, to see how 
cache performance scales.

Thanks,
Florin

[1] F. Coras, J. Domingo, A. Cabellos. "On the scalability of LISP
mappings caches". Technical Report. URL:
http://personals.ac.upc.edu/fcoras/publications/2015-fcoras-scalability.pdf



On 4/13/15 2:15 PM, Ross Callon wrote:
>> I'm pretty sure you mean the granularity of the entries cached (the
>> width of the EID-prefixes).
> Yes. I have been summarizing this using the term "granularity of the cache" or "cache granularity", but of course I mean the granularity / "width" of the entries which are maintained in the cache.
>
>> The goal our experiments was to understand the
>> performance of LISP map-caches if edge
>> networks already owning their address space (PI address owners) were to
>> switch to LISP. Speculating if and how PA owning edge networks are to
>> switch to LISP was outside the scope.
> Yes, I think that this text gets to the point of my biggest issue. I am concerned that people may miss this assumption in the study and think that it pertains to a potential wider deployment of LISP.
>
> Perhaps the note that we need in the impact document would include something like: "[CCD12] analyzes the performance of the LISP map cache if only the current edge networks already owning their address space (PI address owners) were to switch to LISP. It is not known what the performance implications would be if LISP were more widely deployed, or if the availability of LISP or other factors were to cause a significant increase in the number of PI addresses."
>
> Thanks, Ross
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Florin Coras [mailto:fcoras@ac.upc.edu]
> Sent: Monday, April 13, 2015 2:52 PM
> To: Ross Callon; Damien Saucez
> Cc: Joel Halpern; Luigi Iannone; LISP mailing list list; draft-ietf-lisp-impact@tools.ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01
>
> Hi Ross,
>
> Apologies for the belated reply, it was a busy week. First of all,
> thanks for taking the time to read the paper and for the good comments.
> More inline.
>
> On 4/8/15 5:29 PM, Ross Callon wrote:
>>> See [CCD12], this document provides a generic model that works for
>>> any desegregation assumption as long as the map-cache is implemented
>>> with LRU.
>>>
>>> Damien Saucez
>> [CCD12] is of course:
>>
>>      Coras, F., Cabellos-Aparicio, A., and J. Domingo-Pascual, "An
>> Analytical Model
>>      for the LISP Cache Size", In Proc. IFIP Networking 2012, May 2012.
>>
>> I just finished reading this through. To me the analytic model looks
>> mostly fine, except for one issue mentioned below, but the results (in
>> terms of how large a cache is needed) depends upon the assumption
>> about the granularity of the cache.
> I'm pretty sure you mean the granularity of the entries cached (the
> width of the EID-prefixes). And this is indeed so because in light of
> the fixed size of the 32-bit (or 128-bit) address space, granularity
> controls the number of prefixes and thereby the number of destinations
> traffic could have. But note that the relevant metric for a cache is the
> number of destinations rather than the granularity.
>> Near the end of section 2 of this paper (the last paragraph before
>> section 3) includes the text:
>>          "... One can easily observe that the map-cache is most
>> efficient in
>>      situations when destination EIDs present high temporal and/or spatial
>>      locality and that its size depends upon the diversity of the visited
>>      destinations. As a result, a cache's performance depends entirely on
>>      its provisioned size and on traffic characteristics."
>>
>> Of course the desired size of the cache depends upon the likelihood,
>> for a given cache size, that the next EID that comes along will match
>> an entry which is already in the cache, which depends on the size of
>> the entries in the cache. [As one absurd extreme example, if you had a
>> single default route in the cache, every EID would match it and the
>> cache could be of size 1. A less absurd but still slightly extreme
>> example, if you could get away with nothing finer than a /8 in the
>> cache, then 256 entries would be the largest possible cache size.]
>> Thus the text is true for any given granularity of entries in the
>> cache. The paper might more accurately have said "As a result, a
>> cache's performance depends entirely on its provisioned size, on
>> traffic characteristics, and on the granularity of cache entries".
> There are two things mixed in here: i) the parameters influencing cache
> performance and ii) assumptions to practically evaluate a cache's
> performance.
>
> One of the traffic's characteristics is the number of destinations it
> has. As explained before, when dealing with EID-prefix caches,
> granularity influences the cardinality of the set of destinations, so
> its effect is indirectly considered. Therefore, I believe, our statement
> is general enough.
>
> Regarding the second point, when setting up an experiment to evaluate
> map-cache performance, one has to consider the granularity of
> EID-prefixes. As you've noted, we've used BGP-prefix granularity to fix
> the number of destinations in our experiments. Understandably, this is
> debatable, but more on it lower.
>> In section 4.1, the second paragraph begins:
>>
>>      Both for the evaluation of the working set in section 3.3 and for
>>      the cache performance evaluation to be presented in section 4.3,
>>      IP addresses had to be mapped to their corresponding prefixes. We
>>      considered EID-prefixes to be of BGP-prefix granularity".
>>
>> Of course some assumption of the granularity of prefixes is needed. It
>> is clear that what we assume for the granularity affects the result. I
>> don't agree that BGP-prefix granularity is the right assumption.
> I've gleaned from your previous emails that you believe aggregation of
> PA assignments hides the actual size of the EID-prefix namespace. I
> guess this is why you disagree with our assumption. The goal our
> experiments was to understand the performance of LISP map-caches if edge
> networks already owning their address space (PI address owners) were to
> switch to LISP. Speculating if and how PA owning edge networks are to
> switch to LISP was outside the scope.
>
> However, an important thing to consider is that cache performance is not
> primarily driven by the number of destinations but by the their
> popularity distribution. To give an absurd example: even if there are
> billions of destinations in the mapping system, if a site's users only
> visit google and facebook, the site's map-cache will only need 2
> entries. In fact, we've showed in [1] that the cache model can be
> entirely determined from the popularity distribution. Thereby, to
> understand a site's map-cache asymptotic scalability it is enough to
> characterize the popularity distribution of the EID-prefixes visited.
>
> So, how does the popularity distribution look like? Since we cannot
> compute the popularity of EID-prefixes without any assumptions on
> granularity, we can instead look at web traffic as a good approximation.
> This has been shown to be power law, often referred to as Zipf-like (see
> [2]), i.e, most of the traffic goes to a small set of destinations while
> the majority of destinations are sent few or no packets at all. Note
> though that we obtained a similar law for our traces when considering
> EID-prefixes to be of BGP-prefix granularity and this law has been shown
> to hold in many other fields (see [1] and the references therein).
>
> All this means that cache miss rates decrease very fast with cache size
> (see eq. (11) in [1]), but the exact 'speed' will depend on the
> characteristics of each site. In the worst case, if for some strange
> reason the popularity distribution becomes flat (i.e, all EID-prefixes
> are equally popular) then the map-cache size will have to be
> proportional to the number of EID-prefixes to ensure a reasonably good
> hit-rate.
>
> [1] F. Coras, J. Domingo, A. Cabellos. "On the scalability of LISP
> mappings caches". Technical Report. URL:
> http://personals.ac.upc.edu/fcoras/publications/2015-fcoras-scalability.pdf
> [2] Breslau, Lee, Pei Cao, Li Fan, Graham Phillips, and Scott Shenker.
> "Web caching and Zipf-like distributions: Evidence and implications."
> INFOCOM, in Proceedings. IEEE, vol. 1, pp. 126-134, 1999.
>
>> The other issue that I found with the paper refers to a later sentence
>> in the same second paragraph of section 4.1:
>>
>>      The only preprocessing we performed was to filter out more specific
>>      prefixes. Generally such prefixes are used for traffic engineering
>>      purposes. However, the LISP protocol provides mechanisms for a more
>>      efficient management of these functions that do not require
>> EID-prefix
>>      de-aggregation.
>>
>> My understanding of this is that what some service providers do today
>> is to announce some more specific prefixes (that match a PA prefix
>> assigned to them) at some interconnection points and some different
>> more specific prefixes at other interconnection points in order to
>> draw in traffic where they want to draw it in.
> If the more specifics are meant only for steering the traffic, then LISP
> offers better mechanisms for ingress TE (with only one mapping) by means
> of RLOC priority and weights. If instead you are suggesting those more
> specifics are advertised per *individual client* (which you seem to do
> lower) then we're back at the point above. That is, we might be
> underestimating the size of the EID-prefix namespace. Out of curiosity,
> do you happen to know any reference suggesting this is the norm rather
> than the exception?
>
>> If with LISP you were to map all of these prefixes in one mapping
>> table entry then you would be mapping them all to the same RLOC (or
>> set of RLOCs). Ignoring the issue that any one large ISP could have
>> thousands of PE routers (with thousands more CE routers attached to
>> them), if all of these were mapped to one RLOC then you would not be
>> able to do traffic engineering on a finer scale (unless you were to do
>> deep packet inspection, which I believe is not the plan). Thus I
>> understand how LISP might potentially prevent these more specific
>> prefixes from being advertised into the global routing table, but they
>> will still need to be in the mapping table.
>>
> Here you seem to assume that all of the ISP's PA clients will turn on
> LISP on their CPEs (I really hope you're right ;-) ). If that happens,
> yes, all their prefixes will need to be registered in the mapping
> system. But again, what matters is popularity, not the absolute number
> of EID-prefixes. That is, there's nothing saying that a site sending
> traffic to the PA prefix will have to store all of the ISP's clients
> prefixes. Most probably it will cache just one.
>
> Also, there's an alternative here. The ISP could turn LISP on its
> upstream ASBRs and their customers, since they're PA, would be
> unaffected. In this case, any site communicating with the ISP's clients
> would need to store just one mapping and the ISP would take care of
> routing the decapsulated packets to their intended destination. This is
> somewhat similar, to Instagram and Netflix being EIDs in Amazon's
> datacenters.
>
> Thanks,
> Florin
>> Thanks, Ross
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Damien Saucez [mailto:damien.saucez@gmail.com]
>> Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2015 3:16 AM
>> To: Ross Callon
>> Cc: Joel Halpern; Luigi Iannone; LISP mailing list list;
>> draft-ietf-lisp-impact@tools.ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01
>>
>>
>> On 30 Mar 2015, at 03:50, Ross Callon <rcallon@juniper.net> wrote:
>>
>>> I suppose that there are two options:
>>>
>>> 1. Admit that we have no clue what the cache size or control overhead
>>> will be.
>>>
>> See [CCD12], this document provides a generic model that works for
>> any desegregation assumption as long as the map-cache is implemented
>> with LRU.
>>
>> Damien Saucez
>>
>>> 2. Repeat the cited studies, but with a pessimistic (worse case)
>>> rather than optimistic (better than best case) assumption about cache
>>> granularity.
>>>
>>> The second option would allow us to actually have some idea what
>>> would happen if LISP were deployed on an Internet-wide scale, but
>>> would of course take more time and more work.
>>>
>>> Ross
>>>
>>> PS: I will be offline at meetings all of this week, so I might be a
>>> bit slower to respond for the next few days.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Joel M. Halpern [mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com]
>>> Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2015 9:36 PM
>>> To: Ross Callon; Luigi Iannone; LISP mailing list list
>>> Cc: draft-ietf-lisp-impact@tools.ietf.org
>>> Subject: Re: [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01
>>>
>>> Putting aside the TBD (which of course needs to be fixed),  I have
>>> trouble figuring out what you want us to say about the main issue in
>>> your review.  On the one hand, this is the very issue that we have been
>>> asked to comment on, and on the other hand you say that we don't know.
>>> What do you think it is reasoanble to say?
>>>
>>> Yours,
>>> Joel
>>>
>>> On 3/29/15 9:03 PM, Ross Callon wrote:
>>>> Generally I think that this document needs more work before it will be
>>>> ready to submit for publication. Some comments on
>>>> draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01:
>>>>
>>>> First of all, I assume that the TBD at the end of section 3 will be
>>>> fixed. This reads:
>>>>
>>>>    TBD: add a paragraph to explain the operational difference while
>>>>
>>>>    dealing with a pull model instead of a push.
>>>>
>>>> Also in section 3, the third paragraph begins:
>>>>
>>>>    In addition, Iannone and Bonaventure [IB07] show that the number of
>>>>
>>>>    mapping entries that must be handled by an ITR of a campus network
>>>>
>>>>    with 10,000 users is limited to few tens of thousands, and does not
>>>>
>>>>    represent more than 3 to 4 Megabytes of memory.
>>>>
>>>> Reference [IB07] is of course:
>>>>
>>>>               Iannone, L. and O. Bonaventure, "On the cost of caching
>>>> locator/id mappings", In
>>>>
>>>>               Proc. ACM CoNEXT 2007, December 2007.
>>>>
>>>> This paper states:
>>>>
>>>>     In our analysis, we assume that the granularity of the
>>>>
>>>>     EID-to-RLOC mapping is the prefix blocks assigned by
>>>>
>>>>     RIRs. We call it /BGP granularity. In particular, we
>>>>
>>>>     used the list of prefixes made available by the iPlane
>>>>
>>>>     Project [15], containing around 240,000 entries. Using
>>>>
>>>>     /BGP granularity means that each EID is first mapped
>>>>
>>>>     on a /BGP prefix. The cache will thus contain /BGP
>>>>
>>>>     to RLOC mappings.2 This is a natural choice, since
>>>>
>>>>     routing locators are supposed to be border routers.
>>>>
>>>> The authors should be aware that there is some aggregation /
>>>> summarization being done in the operation of BGP routing, and that the
>>>> granularity of routes which appear in the default-free BGP routing
>>>> tables is fundamentally different from the granularity of enterprise
>>>> network / ISP boundaries across which traffic is exchanged.
>>>>
>>>> The same paragraph cites Kim et al.  [KIF11], which is Kim, J.,
>>>> Iannone,
>>>> L., and A. Feldmann, "Deep dive into the lisp cache and what isps
>>>> should
>>>> know about it", In Proc.  IFIP Networking 2011, May 2011. From this
>>>> document:
>>>>
>>>>     In addition, we use a local BGP prefixes
>>>>
>>>>     database, fed with the list of BGP prefixes published by the iPlane
>>>> Project [17].
>>>>
>>>>     The database is used to group EID-to-RLOCs mappings with the
>>>> granularity of
>>>>
>>>>     existing BGP prefixes, because, as for today, there is no
>>>> sufficient information
>>>>
>>>>     to predict what will be the granularity of mappings in a
>>>> LISP-enabled Internet.
>>>>
>>>> I agree that "there is not sufficient information to predict what will
>>>> be the granularity of mappings in a LISP-enabled Internet". However,
>>>> not
>>>> knowing what the mapping granularity will be does not justify using an
>>>> extremely optimistic guess, and then acting as if the results are
>>>> meaningful. These assumptions are clearly off by some number of orders
>>>> of magnitude, but how many orders of magnitude is unknown. We will note
>>>> that the current internet default-free routing table includes a few
>>>> hundred thousand entries (roughly twice the 240,000 entries that
>>>> existed
>>>> when this study was done).
>>>>
>>>> For example, we might assume that the intended global deployment model
>>>> involves xTRs at the boundary between enterprise networks and service
>>>> providers, and might note that there are several million companies in
>>>> the USA alone (most of these are relatively small companies, of
>>>> course).
>>>> Thus there may be very roughly on the order of a hundred million or so
>>>> companies worldwide. If each one had a separate entry in the mapping
>>>> table, then the number of entries will be nearly 1,000 times larger
>>>> than
>>>> BGP-prefix granularity.
>>>>
>>>> Section 4 mentions as one possible use of LISP: "enable mobility of
>>>> subscriber end points". If individual end points are advertised into
>>>> LISP, then the granularity of the mapping table may be on the order of
>>>> individual systems. In this case the number of mapping table entries
>>>> that could exist globally might be on the same order of magnitude as
>>>> the
>>>> number of people in the world, or very roughly 7 Billion entries. This
>>>> would suggest that the mapping table might be roughly 30,000 times
>>>> finer
>>>> grained than was assumed in the referenced studies.
>>>>
>>>> I don't see how we can accurately predict the control plane load of
>>>> LISP
>>>> without some sense for what the granularity of the mapping table will
>>>> be. It should however be possible to bound the control plane load. The
>>>> referenced studies give a lower bound on possible control plane load
>>>> (it
>>>> won't be any less), but give neither an accurate measurement nor an
>>>> upper bound on the potential control plane load. I don't think that the
>>>> document can claim to explain the impact of LISP without there being an
>>>> attempt to measure an upper bound on the control plane load.
>>>>
>>>> Finally, perhaps I missed it but I didn't see any discussion of the
>>>> volume of overhead related to OAM traffic used for liveness detection
>>>> (the need for ITR's to determine the reachability of ETR's).
>>>>
>>>> Thanks, Ross
>>>>
>>>> *From:*lisp [mailto:lisp-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Luigi Iannone
>>>> *Sent:* Monday, March 09, 2015 10:22 AM
>>>> *To:* LISP mailing list list
>>>> *Cc:* draft-ietf-lisp-impact@tools.ietf.org
>>>> *Subject:* [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01
>>>>
>>>> Hi All,
>>>>
>>>> the authors of the LISP Impact document
>>>> [https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01] requested the
>>>> Work Group Last Call.
>>>>
>>>> This email starts a WG Last Call, to end March 30th, 2015.
>>>>
>>>> Because usually the pre-meeting period is already overloaded, the LC
>>>> duration is set to three weeks.
>>>>
>>>> Please review this updated WG document and let the WG know if you agree
>>>> that it is ready for handing to the AD.
>>>>
>>>> If you have objections, please state your reasons why, and explain what
>>>> it would take to address your concerns.
>>>>
>>>> Any raised issue will be discussed during the WG meeting in Dallas.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Luigi & Joel
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> lisp mailing list
>>>> lisp@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lisp
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> lisp mailing list
>>> lisp@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lisp
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


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The IESG has received a request from the Locator/ID Separation Protocol
WG (lisp) to consider the following document:
- 'LISP EID Block'
  <draft-ietf-lisp-eid-block-10.txt> as Informational RFC

The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits
final comments on this action. Please send substantive comments to the
ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by 2015-04-28. Exceptionally, comments may be
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beginning of the Subject line to allow automated sorting.

Abstract


   This is a direction to IANA to allocate a /32 IPv6 prefix for use
   with the Locator/ID Separation Protocol (LISP).  The prefix will be
   used for local intra-domain routing and global endpoint
   identification, by sites deploying LISP as EID (Endpoint IDentifier)
   addressing space.




The file can be obtained via
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lisp-eid-block/

IESG discussion can be tracked via
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lisp-eid-block/ballot/


No IPR declarations have been submitted directly on this I-D.



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The IESG has received a request from the Locator/ID Separation Protocol
WG (lisp) to consider the following document:
- 'LISP EID Block Management Guidelines'
  <draft-ietf-lisp-eid-block-mgmnt-04.txt> as Informational RFC

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Abstract


   This document proposes a framework for the management of the LISP EID
   Prefix.  The framework described relies on hierarchical distribution
   of the address space, granting temporary usage of sub-prefixes of
   such space to requesting organizations.




The file can be obtained via
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lisp-eid-block-mgmnt/

IESG discussion can be tracked via
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lisp-eid-block-mgmnt/ballot/


No IPR declarations have been submitted directly on this I-D.



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From nobody Tue Apr 14 15:40:39 2015
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From: Ross Callon <rcallon@juniper.net>
To: Dino Farinacci <farinacci@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01
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Cc: LISP mailing list list <lisp@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-lisp-impact@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-lisp-impact@tools.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01
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From: Dino Farinacci <farinacci@gmail.com>
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To: Ross Callon <rcallon@juniper.net>
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Cc: LISP mailing list list <lisp@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-lisp-impact@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-lisp-impact@tools.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01
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> Dino;
>=20
> One point from your first email yesterday that I think might be worth =
making (although this might be partially OBE by more recent emails).=20
>=20
>> What ISPs want more than anything else is balanced load. And if they
>> have to vary from that point, they go more granular. And that usually
>> means by source or 5-tuple hashing in the data-plane.
>=20
> I agree that a very common approach for balancing load involves =
hashing on the well known 5-tuple (source and destination IP addresses, =
etc...) to allow load splitting across multiple paths (plus techniques =
for setting up the multiple paths). This is fairly well known. However, =
this does not require announcing "more specific" addresses into BGP (nor =
into the LISP cache). As such it doesn't relate to the issue of whether =
or not the more specific addresses that are currently advertised into =
BGP will need to also correspond to separate entries in a LISP cache.=20

Right, agree. I was referring to how ISPs load-split traffic. It is a =
combination of control-plane (the specifity of route advertisements) and =
data-plane (5-tuple hash to select one of many ECMP paths).

> The reason that I was mentioning the less common, but still sometimes =
used approach of announcing more specific addresses into BGP in order to =
have traffic arrive at your network "closer" to the ultimate =
destination, is specifically because this *is* a reason for announcing =
more specific addresses in to BGP. I have heard this approach referred =
to as "cold potato" routing (since it tries to get the previous network =
operator along a path to hold onto the packet longer).=20

Right. With LISP you can do cold or hot potato with the same length =
prefix given to ITRs in different source sites. That can=E2=80=99t be =
done with a push protocol unless you do (source, dest) routing which =
kinda blows up the size of the RIB.

> Nonetheless, this is probably more easily discussed with a white board =
in front of us (and perhaps also a beer ;-). =20

Definitely. Count on it.

Dino

>=20
> Ross
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dino Farinacci [mailto:farinacci@gmail.com]=20
> Sent: Monday, April 13, 2015 3:58 PM
> To: Ross Callon
> Cc: Darrel Lewis; LISP mailing list list; =
draft-ietf-lisp-impact@tools.ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01
>=20
>> Dino, I am not sure that you read my earlier email quite the way that =
I meant to explain the issue. One=20
>=20
> Well I read the words you wrote.  ;-)
>=20
>> reason for more specifics being advertised is that some ISPs don't =
want incoming traffic split by source, but rather by destination. =
Probably to agree on how this would work with LISP we need to sit down =
in person and discuss this with white boards and pictures.=20
>=20
> What ISPs want more than anything else is balanced load. And if they =
have to vary from that point, they go more granular. And that usually =
means by source or 5-tuple hashing in the data-plane.
>=20
>> To me it seems like there are two ways forward here: One option is to =
go with what Joel suggested earlier, and add to the document something =
along the lines that the scaling numbers are disputed and we don't =
actually know how it scales. The other option would be for at least the =
two of us to sit down in=20
>=20
> I agree.=20
>=20
> We don=E2=80=99t know how ANYTHING scales until it gets there. Where =
=E2=80=9Cthere=E2=80=9D is some point. Is BGP scaling? So this will =
always come down to subjective opinion and perspective from different =
points of view.
>=20
>> person as soon as we get a chance (no later than Prague, hopefully =
earlier if either of us gets a trip to the other's neck of the woods). I =
don't currently have any trips planned to California, but could let you =
know if I do and try to plan to stay an extra day to go over this.=20
>=20
> We should do that in any case, but we shouldn=E2=80=99t block or slow =
down the process. We can do this in Prague but go with Joel=E2=80=99s =
suggestion for now.
>=20
> Dino
>=20
>>=20
>> Thanks, Ross
>>=20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Dino Farinacci [mailto:farinacci@gmail.com]=20
>> Sent: Friday, April 10, 2015 2:16 AM
>> To: Ross Callon
>> Cc: Darrel Lewis; LISP mailing list list; =
draft-ietf-lisp-impact@tools.ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01
>>=20
>>> However, there is a reason that some more specific prefixes are =
advertised (in addition to a covering less specific prefix). One reason =
is that some service providers want incoming traffic delivered to them =
via different interconnects based on the destination. Even if you are =
doing traffic
>>=20
>> Right but if you want that with LISP you can return a coarse prefix =
in a Map-Reply with different priority values to different ITRs. It =
doesn't require for more-specifics.=20
>>=20
>>> engineering with LISP, then this reason doesn't go away, and isn't =
solved by sending only the less specific prefix in the map reply. Of =
course there are other
>>=20
>> Yes it is solved. With a push protocol to instruct traffic to come =
one way or the other is only done with multiple prefixes where with LISP =
it can be done with the same prefix but is tailored on a per source or =
request basis.=20
>>=20
>>> reasons to advertise more specific prefixes, and on the most part =
these don't go away either. I therefore feel that it was an error for =
the study discussed in [CCD12] to "... filter out more specific =
prefixes".
>>=20
>> It doesn't follow at all to me.=20
>>=20
>> Dino
>=20


From nobody Wed Apr 15 01:18:45 2015
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From: Luigi Iannone <ggx@gigix.net>
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Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2015 10:18:43 +0200
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Subject: Re: [lisp] WG LC draft-ietf-lisp-threats-12
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Hi All,

the two weeks WG LC for the lisp threats document have elapsed.
No objection have been raised, hence, the WG LC consensus expressed =
during last meeting is confirmed.

The document will now move forward waiting the shepherd writeup and then =
into Ads hands.

ciao

Luigi


> On 31 Mar 2015, at 12:24, Luigi Iannone <ggx@gigix.net> wrote:
>=20
> Hi All,
>=20
> During 92nd IETF  LISP WG meeting the authors of the LISP Threats =
document
> [http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-lisp-threats-12.txt =
<http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-lisp-threats-12.txt>] requested the =
Work Group Last Call.
>=20
> There was rough consensus in the room for last call, hence, to confirm =
such outcome,=20
> this email starts the two weeks WG Last Call, to end April 14th, 2015.
>=20
> Please review this updated WG document and let the WG know if you =
agree that it is ready for handing to the AD.
> If you have objections, please state your reasons why, and explain =
what it would take to address your concerns.
>=20
> Thanks
>=20
> Luigi & Joel


--Apple-Mail=_4CAF1732-C813-4DD0-A575-6BD45C296359
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dus-ascii"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Hi All,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">the=
 two weeks WG LC for the lisp threats document have elapsed.</div><div =
class=3D"">No objection have been raised, hence, the WG LC consensus =
expressed during last meeting is confirmed.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The document will now move forward =
waiting the shepherd writeup and then into Ads hands.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">ciao</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Luigi</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On =
31 Mar 2015, at 12:24, Luigi Iannone &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ggx@gigix.net" =
class=3D"">ggx@gigix.net</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><meta =
http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html charset=3Dus-ascii" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">Hi All,<br =
class=3D""><font color=3D"#5856d6" class=3D""><br class=3D""></font>During=
 92nd IETF &nbsp;LISP WG meeting the authors of the LISP Threats =
document<div class=3D"">[<a =
href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-lisp-threats-12.txt" =
class=3D"">http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-lisp-threats-12.txt</a>] =
requested the Work Group Last Call.<div class=3D""><font color=3D"#5856d6"=
 class=3D""><br class=3D""></font>There was rough consensus in the room =
for last call, hence, to confirm such outcome,&nbsp;</div><div =
class=3D"">this email starts the two weeks WG Last Call, to end April =
14th, 2015.<br class=3D""><font color=3D"#5856d6" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></font>Please review this updated WG document and let the WG =
know if you agree that it is ready for handing to the AD.<br class=3D"">If=
 you have objections, please state your reasons why, and explain what it =
would take to address your concerns.<br class=3D""><font color=3D"#5856d6"=
 class=3D""><br class=3D""></font>Thanks<br class=3D""><font =
color=3D"#00afcd" class=3D""><br class=3D""></font><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"" style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div class=3D"">Luigi &amp; =
Joel</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_4CAF1732-C813-4DD0-A575-6BD45C296359--


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From: Luigi Iannone <ggx@gigix.net>
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Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 12:02:34 +0200
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To: Luigi Iannone <ggx@gigix.net>
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Hi,

Did you get a chance to have a look to the latest version of this =
document to consider clearing the open discuss?

May be to be added to the next tele chat agenda?

ciao

Luigi


> On 02 Apr 2015, at 21:56, Luigi Iannone <ggx@gigix.net> wrote:
>=20
> Hi All,
>=20
> authors submitted a new version of the LISP introduction document=20
> addressing all of the discuss and comments previously raised.
>=20
> Please let us know if there is any residual issue.
>=20
> ciao
>=20
> Luigi
>=20
>=20
>> Begin forwarded message:
>>=20
>> From: internet-drafts@ietf.org <mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org>
>> To: <i-d-announce@ietf.org <mailto:i-d-announce@ietf.org>>
>> Subject: I-D Action: draft-ietf-lisp-introduction-13.txt
>> Date: 2 Apr 2015 14:27:11 CEST
>> Cc: lisp@ietf.org <mailto:lisp@ietf.org>
>> Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org <mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org>
>>=20
>>=20
>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts =
directories.
>> This draft is a work item of the Locator/ID Separation Protocol =
Working Group of the IETF.
>>=20
>>        Title           : An Architectural Introduction to the =
Locator/ID Separation Protocol (LISP)
>>        Authors         : Albert Cabellos
>>                          Damien Saucez
>> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-lisp-introduction-13.txt
>> 	Pages           : 27
>> 	Date            : 2015-04-02
>>=20
>> Abstract:
>>   This document describes the architecture of the Locator/ID =
Separation
>>   Protocol (LISP), making it easier to read the rest of the LISP
>>   specifications and providing a basis for discussion about the =
details
>>   of the LISP protocols.  This document is used for introductory
>>   purposes, more details can be found in RFC6830, the protocol
>>   specification.
>>=20
>>=20
>> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lisp-introduction/ =
<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lisp-introduction/>
>>=20
>> There's also a htmlized version available at:
>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lisp-introduction-13
>>=20
>> A diff from the previous version is available at:
>> http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-lisp-introduction-13
>>=20
>>=20
>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of =
submission
>> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>>=20
>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> I-D-Announce mailing list
>> I-D-Announce@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce
>> Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
>> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
>=20


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dus-ascii"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Hi,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Did =
you get a chance to have a look to the latest version of this document =
to consider clearing the open discuss?</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">May be to be added to the next tele =
chat agenda?</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">ciao</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Luigi</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On 02 Apr 2015, at 21:56, Luigi Iannone &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ggx@gigix.net" class=3D"">ggx@gigix.net</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><meta =
http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html charset=3Dus-ascii" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">Hi All,<div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">authors submitted a new =
version of the LISP introduction document&nbsp;</div><div =
class=3D"">addressing all of the discuss and comments previously =
raised.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Please =
let us know if there is any residual issue.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">ciao</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Luigi</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Begin forwarded message:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class=3D""><span=
 style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D"">From: </b></span><span =
style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a><br class=3D""></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
-webkit-system-font, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">To: </b></span><span style=3D"font-family: =
-webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:i-d-announce@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">i-d-announce@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D""></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
-webkit-system-font, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject: </b></span><span style=3D"font-family: =
-webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b=
 class=3D"">I-D Action: draft-ietf-lisp-introduction-13.txt</b><br =
class=3D""></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: =
0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D"">Date: </b></span><span =
style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">2 Apr 2015 14:27:11 CEST<br =
class=3D""></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: =
0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc: </b></span><span =
style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:lisp@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">lisp@ietf.org</a><br class=3D""></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
-webkit-system-font, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Reply-To: </b></span><span style=3D"font-family: =
-webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><a=
 href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a><br class=3D""></span></div><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D"">A New Internet-Draft is =
available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.<br class=3D""> =
This draft is a work item of the Locator/ID Separation Protocol Working =
Group of the IETF.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Title =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;: An =
Architectural Introduction to the Locator/ID Separation Protocol =
(LISP)<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Authors =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;: Albert Cabellos<br =
class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;Damien Saucez<br class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>Filename =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;: =
draft-ietf-lisp-introduction-13.txt<br class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>Pages =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;: 27<br =
class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>Date =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;: =
2015-04-02<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Abstract:<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;This document describes the architecture of the Locator/ID =
Separation<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;Protocol (LISP), making it easier =
to read the rest of the LISP<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;specifications =
and providing a basis for discussion about the details<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;of the LISP protocols. &nbsp;This document is used for =
introductory<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;purposes, more details can be =
found in RFC6830, the protocol<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;specification.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">The=
 IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lisp-introduction/" =
class=3D"">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lisp-introduction/<=
/a><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">There's also a htmlized version =
available at:<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lisp-introduction-13" =
class=3D"">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lisp-introduction-13</a><=
br class=3D""><br class=3D"">A diff from the previous version is =
available at:<br =
class=3D"">http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-lisp-introduction=
-13<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Please note that it may =
take a couple of minutes from the time of submission<br class=3D"">until =
the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Internet-Drafts are also available by =
anonymous FTP at:<br class=3D"">ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/<br =
class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">I-D-Announce mailing list<br =
class=3D"">I-D-Announce@ietf.org<br =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce<br =
class=3D"">Internet-Draft directories: =
http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html<br class=3D"">or =
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt<br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 15:04:57 -0400
Message-ID: <CAG4d1rc3phVTurnkzbguMG0BUxAo2Bk+-kRDm0-_Mbt9h-+R9w@mail.gmail.com>
From: Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>
To: Luigi Iannone <ggx@gigix.net>
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Subject: Re: [lisp] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lisp-introduction-13.txt
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Hi Luigi,

In Sec 3.1, as part of the Locator/Identifier Split, it says:

"Locator/Identifier split: By decoupling the overloaded semantics
      of the current IP addresses the Internet core can be assigned
      identity meaningful addresses and hence, can use aggregation to
      scale.  Devices are assigned with relatively opaque topologically
      meaningful addresses that are independent of their topological
      location.
"

This still doesn't make sense!

"Locator/Identifier split:  Decoupling the overloaded semantics of current
IP addresses allows devices to have identity-based addresses that are
separate from topologically-meaningful addresses.  By allowing only the
topologically-meaningful addresses to be exposed to the Internet core, those
topologically-meaningful addresses can be aggregated to support substantial
scaling.  Individual devices are assigned identity-based addresses that are
not used for forwarding in the Internet core."

is probably a lot closer to what you are trying to say - but please figure
out
what your points are and reread the text to make sure that it parses.

This was in my comment and not the Discuss, so I am clearing that.

Regards,
Alia

On Tue, Apr 14, 2015 at 6:02 AM, Luigi Iannone <ggx@gigix.net> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Did you get a chance to have a look to the latest version of this document
> to consider clearing the open discuss?
>
> May be to be added to the next tele chat agenda?
>
> ciao
>
> Luigi
>
>
> On 02 Apr 2015, at 21:56, Luigi Iannone <ggx@gigix.net> wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
> authors submitted a new version of the LISP introduction document
> addressing all of the discuss and comments previously raised.
>
> Please let us know if there is any residual issue.
>
> ciao
>
> Luigi
>
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
> *From: *internet-drafts@ietf.org
> *To: *<i-d-announce@ietf.org>
> *Subject: **I-D Action: draft-ietf-lisp-introduction-13.txt*
> *Date: *2 Apr 2015 14:27:11 CEST
> *Cc: *lisp@ietf.org
> *Reply-To: *internet-drafts@ietf.org
>
>
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
> directories.
> This draft is a work item of the Locator/ID Separation Protocol Working
> Group of the IETF.
>
>        Title           : An Architectural Introduction to the Locator/ID
> Separation Protocol (LISP)
>        Authors         : Albert Cabellos
>                          Damien Saucez
> Filename        : draft-ietf-lisp-introduction-13.txt
> Pages           : 27
> Date            : 2015-04-02
>
> Abstract:
>   This document describes the architecture of the Locator/ID Separation
>   Protocol (LISP), making it easier to read the rest of the LISP
>   specifications and providing a basis for discussion about the details
>   of the LISP protocols.  This document is used for introductory
>   purposes, more details can be found in RFC6830, the protocol
>   specification.
>
>
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lisp-introduction/
>
> There's also a htmlized version available at:
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lisp-introduction-13
>
> A diff from the previous version is available at:
> http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-lisp-introduction-13
>
>
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of
> submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>
> _______________________________________________
> I-D-Announce mailing list
> I-D-Announce@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce
> Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
>
>
>
>

--001a11c2e34214cec50513b3e812
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hi Luigi,</div><div><br></div><div>In Sec 3.1, as par=
t of the Locator/Identifier Split, it says:</div><div><br></div><div>&quot;=
Locator/Identifier split: By decoupling the overloaded semantics<br>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 of the current IP addresses the Internet core can be assigned=
<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 identity meaningful addresses and hence, can use a=
ggregation to<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 scale.=C2=A0 Devices are assigned wit=
h relatively opaque topologically<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 meaningful addres=
ses that are independent of their topological<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 locat=
ion.</div><div>&quot;</div><div><br></div><div>This still doesn&#39;t make =
sense!</div><div><br></div><div>&quot;Locator/Identifier split: =C2=A0Decou=
pling the overloaded semantics of current</div><div>IP addresses allows dev=
ices to have identity-based addresses that are</div><div>separate from topo=
logically-meaningful addresses.=C2=A0 By allowing only the</div><div>topolo=
gically-meaningful addresses to be exposed to the Internet core, those</div=
><div>topologically-meaningful addresses can be aggregated to support subst=
antial</div><div>scaling.=C2=A0 Individual devices are assigned identity-ba=
sed addresses that are</div><div>not used for forwarding in the Internet co=
re.&quot;</div><div><br></div><div>is probably a lot closer to what you are=
 trying to say - but please figure out</div><div>what your points are and r=
eread the text to make sure that it parses.</div><div><br></div><div>This w=
as in my comment and not the Discuss, so I am clearing that.</div><div><br>=
</div><div>Regards,</div><div>Alia</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><b=
r><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Apr 14, 2015 at 6:02 AM, Luigi Iannone=
 <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ggx@gigix.net" target=3D"_blank">g=
gx@gigix.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div s=
tyle=3D"word-wrap:break-word">Hi,<div><br></div><div>Did you get a chance t=
o have a look to the latest version of this document to consider clearing t=
he open discuss?</div><div><br></div><div>May be to be added to the next te=
le chat agenda?</div><div><br></div><div>ciao</div><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><=
font color=3D"#888888"><div><br></div><div>Luigi</div></font></span><div><d=
iv class=3D"h5"><div><br></div><div><br><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div=
>On 02 Apr 2015, at 21:56, Luigi Iannone &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ggx@gigix.ne=
t" target=3D"_blank">ggx@gigix.net</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br><div><div style=
=3D"word-wrap:break-word">Hi All,<div><br></div><div>authors submitted a ne=
w version of the LISP introduction document=C2=A0</div><div>addressing all =
of the discuss and comments previously raised.</div><div><br></div><div>Ple=
ase let us know if there is any residual issue.</div><div><br></div><div>ci=
ao</div><div><br></div><div>Luigi</div><div><br><div><br><blockquote type=
=3D"cite"><div>Begin forwarded message:</div><br><div style=3D"margin-top:0=
px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><span style=3D"font-=
family:-webkit-system-font,&#39;Helvetica Neue&#39;,Helvetica,sans-serif"><=
b>From: </b></span><span style=3D"font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica=
 Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif"><a href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org" tar=
get=3D"_blank">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a><br></span></div><div style=3D"m=
argin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><span sty=
le=3D"font-family:-webkit-system-font,&#39;Helvetica Neue&#39;,Helvetica,sa=
ns-serif"><b>To: </b></span><span style=3D"font-family:-webkit-system-font,=
Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:i-d-announce@iet=
f.org" target=3D"_blank">i-d-announce@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br></span></div><div=
 style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px=
"><span style=3D"font-family:-webkit-system-font,&#39;Helvetica Neue&#39;,H=
elvetica,sans-serif"><b>Subject: </b></span><span style=3D"font-family:-web=
kit-system-font,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif"><b>I-D Action: draft-i=
etf-lisp-introduction-13.txt</b><br></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top:0=
px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><span style=3D"font-=
family:-webkit-system-font,&#39;Helvetica Neue&#39;,Helvetica,sans-serif"><=
b>Date: </b></span><span style=3D"font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica=
 Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif">2 Apr 2015 14:27:11 CEST<br></span></div><div s=
tyle=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px">=
<span style=3D"font-family:-webkit-system-font,&#39;Helvetica Neue&#39;,Hel=
vetica,sans-serif"><b>Cc: </b></span><span style=3D"font-family:-webkit-sys=
tem-font,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif"><a href=3D"mailto:lisp@ietf.o=
rg" target=3D"_blank">lisp@ietf.org</a><br></span></div><div style=3D"margi=
n-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><span style=
=3D"font-family:-webkit-system-font,&#39;Helvetica Neue&#39;,Helvetica,sans=
-serif"><b>Reply-To: </b></span><span style=3D"font-family:-webkit-system-f=
ont,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif"><a href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@=
ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a><br></span></div><b=
r><div><br>A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Draf=
ts directories.<br> This draft is a work item of the Locator/ID Separation =
Protocol Working Group of the IETF.<br><br> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0Title =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0: An Architectural Introduction to the Locator/ID Separation Protocol (L=
ISP)<br> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Authors =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0: Albert Cabellos<br> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Damien Saucez<br><=
span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>Filename =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0: draft-ietf-lisp-introduction-13.txt<br><span style=
=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>Pages =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0: 27<br><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</=
span>Date =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0: 2015-04-02<br><br>Abstract:<br> =C2=A0=C2=A0This document describes th=
e architecture of the Locator/ID Separation<br> =C2=A0=C2=A0Protocol (LISP)=
, making it easier to read the rest of the LISP<br> =C2=A0=C2=A0specificati=
ons and providing a basis for discussion about the details<br> =C2=A0=C2=A0=
of the LISP protocols.=C2=A0 This document is used for introductory<br> =C2=
=A0=C2=A0purposes, more details can be found in RFC6830, the protocol<br> =
=C2=A0=C2=A0specification.<br><br><br>The IETF datatracker status page for =
this draft is:<br><a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-li=
sp-introduction/" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-=
ietf-lisp-introduction/</a><br><br>There&#39;s also a htmlized version avai=
lable at:<br><a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lisp-introduc=
tion-13" target=3D"_blank">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lisp-intro=
duction-13</a><br><br>A diff from the previous version is available at:<br>=
<a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-lisp-introduction-=
13" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-lisp-in=
troduction-13</a><br><br><br>Please note that it may take a couple of minut=
es from the time of submission<br>until the htmlized version and diff are a=
vailable at <a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">tools.ietf.=
org</a>.<br><br>Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:<br>=
<a href=3D"ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/" target=3D"_blank">ftp://ftp=
.ietf.org/internet-drafts/</a><br><br>_____________________________________=
__________<br>I-D-Announce mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:I-D-Announce@i=
etf.org" target=3D"_blank">I-D-Announce@ietf.org</a><br><a href=3D"https://=
www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce" target=3D"_blank">https://www.i=
etf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce</a><br>Internet-Draft directories: <a=
 href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf=
.org/shadow.html</a><br>or <a href=3D"ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites=
.txt" target=3D"_blank">ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt</a><br></=
div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div><=
/div></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

--001a11c2e34214cec50513b3e812--


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From: Albert Cabellos <albert.cabellos@gmail.com>
To: Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com>
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--001a1133a952ae17db0513c0736c
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
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Hi Alia

Thanks for the rewording, I agree that your suggeted text reads better.

We=C2=B4ll incorporate this text along with further comments (if any) in a
revised version of the draft.

Regards

Albert

On Tue, Apr 14, 2015 at 9:04 PM, Alia Atlas <akatlas@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Luigi,
>
> In Sec 3.1, as part of the Locator/Identifier Split, it says:
>
> "Locator/Identifier split: By decoupling the overloaded semantics
>       of the current IP addresses the Internet core can be assigned
>       identity meaningful addresses and hence, can use aggregation to
>       scale.  Devices are assigned with relatively opaque topologically
>       meaningful addresses that are independent of their topological
>       location.
> "
>
> This still doesn't make sense!
>
> "Locator/Identifier split:  Decoupling the overloaded semantics of curren=
t
> IP addresses allows devices to have identity-based addresses that are
> separate from topologically-meaningful addresses.  By allowing only the
> topologically-meaningful addresses to be exposed to the Internet core,
> those
> topologically-meaningful addresses can be aggregated to support substanti=
al
> scaling.  Individual devices are assigned identity-based addresses that a=
re
> not used for forwarding in the Internet core."
>
> is probably a lot closer to what you are trying to say - but please figur=
e
> out
> what your points are and reread the text to make sure that it parses.
>
> This was in my comment and not the Discuss, so I am clearing that.
>
> Regards,
> Alia
>
> On Tue, Apr 14, 2015 at 6:02 AM, Luigi Iannone <ggx@gigix.net> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Did you get a chance to have a look to the latest version of this
>> document to consider clearing the open discuss?
>>
>> May be to be added to the next tele chat agenda?
>>
>> ciao
>>
>> Luigi
>>
>>
>> On 02 Apr 2015, at 21:56, Luigi Iannone <ggx@gigix.net> wrote:
>>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> authors submitted a new version of the LISP introduction document
>> addressing all of the discuss and comments previously raised.
>>
>> Please let us know if there is any residual issue.
>>
>> ciao
>>
>> Luigi
>>
>>
>> Begin forwarded message:
>>
>> *From: *internet-drafts@ietf.org
>> *To: *<i-d-announce@ietf.org>
>> *Subject: **I-D Action: draft-ietf-lisp-introduction-13.txt*
>> *Date: *2 Apr 2015 14:27:11 CEST
>> *Cc: *lisp@ietf.org
>> *Reply-To: *internet-drafts@ietf.org
>>
>>
>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
>> directories.
>> This draft is a work item of the Locator/ID Separation Protocol Working
>> Group of the IETF.
>>
>>        Title           : An Architectural Introduction to the Locator/ID
>> Separation Protocol (LISP)
>>        Authors         : Albert Cabellos
>>                          Damien Saucez
>> Filename        : draft-ietf-lisp-introduction-13.txt
>> Pages           : 27
>> Date            : 2015-04-02
>>
>> Abstract:
>>   This document describes the architecture of the Locator/ID Separation
>>   Protocol (LISP), making it easier to read the rest of the LISP
>>   specifications and providing a basis for discussion about the details
>>   of the LISP protocols.  This document is used for introductory
>>   purposes, more details can be found in RFC6830, the protocol
>>   specification.
>>
>>
>> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lisp-introduction/
>>
>> There's also a htmlized version available at:
>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lisp-introduction-13
>>
>> A diff from the previous version is available at:
>> http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-lisp-introduction-13
>>
>>
>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of
>> submission
>> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>>
>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> I-D-Announce mailing list
>> I-D-Announce@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce
>> Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
>> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

--001a1133a952ae17db0513c0736c
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Alia<div><br></div><div>Thanks for the rewording, I agr=
ee that your suggeted text reads better.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>We=
=C2=B4ll incorporate this text along with further comments (if any) in a re=
vised version of the draft.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards</div><div><br>=
</div><div>Albert</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_q=
uote">On Tue, Apr 14, 2015 at 9:04 PM, Alia Atlas <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:akatlas@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">akatlas@gmail.com</a>&g=
t;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0=
 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hi=
 Luigi,</div><div><br></div><div>In Sec 3.1, as part of the Locator/Identif=
ier Split, it says:</div><div><br></div><div>&quot;Locator/Identifier split=
: By decoupling the overloaded semantics<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 of the cur=
rent IP addresses the Internet core can be assigned<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 identity meaningful addresses and hence, can use aggregation to<br>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 scale.=C2=A0 Devices are assigned with relatively opaque topo=
logically<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 meaningful addresses that are independent=
 of their topological<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 location.</div><div>&quot;</d=
iv><div><br></div><div>This still doesn&#39;t make sense!</div><div><br></d=
iv><div>&quot;Locator/Identifier split: =C2=A0Decoupling the overloaded sem=
antics of current</div><div>IP addresses allows devices to have identity-ba=
sed addresses that are</div><div>separate from topologically-meaningful add=
resses.=C2=A0 By allowing only the</div><div>topologically-meaningful addre=
sses to be exposed to the Internet core, those</div><div>topologically-mean=
ingful addresses can be aggregated to support substantial</div><div>scaling=
.=C2=A0 Individual devices are assigned identity-based addresses that are</=
div><div>not used for forwarding in the Internet core.&quot;</div><div><br>=
</div><div>is probably a lot closer to what you are trying to say - but ple=
ase figure out</div><div>what your points are and reread the text to make s=
ure that it parses.</div><div><br></div><div>This was in my comment and not=
 the Discuss, so I am clearing that.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div=
><div>Alia</div></div><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><div class=3D=
"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Apr 14, 2015 at 6:02 A=
M, Luigi Iannone <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ggx@gigix.net" tar=
get=3D"_blank">ggx@gigix.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"=
gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-=
left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">Hi,<div><br></div><div>Did yo=
u get a chance to have a look to the latest version of this document to con=
sider clearing the open discuss?</div><div><br></div><div>May be to be adde=
d to the next tele chat agenda?</div><div><br></div><div>ciao</div><span><f=
ont color=3D"#888888"><div><br></div><div>Luigi</div></font></span><div><di=
v><div><br></div><div><br><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On 02 Apr 201=
5, at 21:56, Luigi Iannone &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ggx@gigix.net" target=3D"_=
blank">ggx@gigix.net</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br><div><div style=3D"word-wrap:b=
reak-word">Hi All,<div><br></div><div>authors submitted a new version of th=
e LISP introduction document=C2=A0</div><div>addressing all of the discuss =
and comments previously raised.</div><div><br></div><div>Please let us know=
 if there is any residual issue.</div><div><br></div><div>ciao</div><div><b=
r></div><div>Luigi</div><div><br><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>Be=
gin forwarded message:</div><br><div style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-right:0=
px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><span style=3D"font-family:-webkit-sy=
stem-font,&#39;Helvetica Neue&#39;,Helvetica,sans-serif"><b>From: </b></spa=
n><span style=3D"font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,s=
ans-serif"><a href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">in=
ternet-drafts@ietf.org</a><br></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top:0px;mar=
gin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><span style=3D"font-family=
:-webkit-system-font,&#39;Helvetica Neue&#39;,Helvetica,sans-serif"><b>To: =
</b></span><span style=3D"font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica Neue,He=
lvetica,sans-serif">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:i-d-announce@ietf.org" target=3D"=
_blank">i-d-announce@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br></span></div><div style=3D"margin-=
top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><span style=3D"=
font-family:-webkit-system-font,&#39;Helvetica Neue&#39;,Helvetica,sans-ser=
if"><b>Subject: </b></span><span style=3D"font-family:-webkit-system-font,H=
elvetica Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif"><b>I-D Action: draft-ietf-lisp-introduc=
tion-13.txt</b><br></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-right:0=
px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><span style=3D"font-family:-webkit-sy=
stem-font,&#39;Helvetica Neue&#39;,Helvetica,sans-serif"><b>Date: </b></spa=
n><span style=3D"font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,s=
ans-serif">2 Apr 2015 14:27:11 CEST<br></span></div><div style=3D"margin-to=
p:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><span style=3D"fo=
nt-family:-webkit-system-font,&#39;Helvetica Neue&#39;,Helvetica,sans-serif=
"><b>Cc: </b></span><span style=3D"font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetic=
a Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif"><a href=3D"mailto:lisp@ietf.org" target=3D"_bl=
ank">lisp@ietf.org</a><br></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-=
right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><span style=3D"font-family:-we=
bkit-system-font,&#39;Helvetica Neue&#39;,Helvetica,sans-serif"><b>Reply-To=
: </b></span><span style=3D"font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica Neue,=
Helvetica,sans-serif"><a href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org" target=3D=
"_blank">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a><br></span></div><br><div><br>A New In=
ternet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.<br>=
 This draft is a work item of the Locator/ID Separation Protocol Working Gr=
oup of the IETF.<br><br> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Title =
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0: An Architectu=
ral Introduction to the Locator/ID Separation Protocol (LISP)<br> =C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Authors =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0: Albert Cabellos<br> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Damien Saucez<br><span style=3D"whit=
e-space:pre-wrap">	</span>Filename =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0: draft-ietf-lisp-introduction-13.txt<br><span style=3D"white-space:pre-=
wrap">	</span>Pages =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0: 27<br><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>Date =C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0: 2015-04-02<br><b=
r>Abstract:<br> =C2=A0=C2=A0This document describes the architecture of the=
 Locator/ID Separation<br> =C2=A0=C2=A0Protocol (LISP), making it easier to=
 read the rest of the LISP<br> =C2=A0=C2=A0specifications and providing a b=
asis for discussion about the details<br> =C2=A0=C2=A0of the LISP protocols=
.=C2=A0 This document is used for introductory<br> =C2=A0=C2=A0purposes, mo=
re details can be found in RFC6830, the protocol<br> =C2=A0=C2=A0specificat=
ion.<br><br><br>The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:<br><a h=
ref=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lisp-introduction/" targ=
et=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lisp-introduction=
/</a><br><br>There&#39;s also a htmlized version available at:<br><a href=
=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lisp-introduction-13" target=3D"_=
blank">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lisp-introduction-13</a><br><b=
r>A diff from the previous version is available at:<br><a href=3D"http://ww=
w.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-lisp-introduction-13" target=3D"_blank=
">http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-lisp-introduction-13</a><br=
><br><br>Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of =
submission<br>until the htmlized version and diff are available at <a href=
=3D"http://tools.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">tools.ietf.org</a>.<br><br>Int=
ernet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:<br><a href=3D"ftp://ft=
p.ietf.org/internet-drafts/" target=3D"_blank">ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-=
drafts/</a><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>I-D-A=
nnounce mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:I-D-Announce@ietf.org" target=3D"=
_blank">I-D-Announce@ietf.org</a><br><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailma=
n/listinfo/i-d-announce" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/lis=
tinfo/i-d-announce</a><br>Internet-Draft directories: <a href=3D"http://www=
.ietf.org/shadow.html" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html</a=
><br>or <a href=3D"ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt" target=3D"_bl=
ank">ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt</a><br></div></blockquote></=
div><br></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></div></=
blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--001a1133a952ae17db0513c0736c--


From nobody Wed Apr 15 07:32:42 2015
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Subject: [lisp] Alia Atlas' No Objection on draft-ietf-lisp-introduction-13: (with COMMENT)
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Alia Atlas has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-lisp-introduction-13: No Objection

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----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for addressing my discuss and comments.


I support Adrian's discuss.  In a similar vein:

In Sec 3.2: Please either remove the claim of "Such LISP capable
routers, in most cases, only require a software upgrade." or explain
how you can justify the need to add and remove new encapsulations and
handle the various flag triggers and caching at line rate.  There is
no need for such marketing in this document.

1) Sec 1, second paragraph:
   "LISP creates two separate namespaces, EIDs (End-host IDentifiers)
and
   RLOCs (Routing LOCators), both are typically syntactically identical
   to the current IPv4 and IPv6 addresses."
   
   What does "typically" mean?  As far as I'm aware, they are
   syntactically identical.  This is reiterated in Sec 3.2; are you just
   trying to preserve the point of architectural freedom?  I've found
the
   third instance of insisting that the EID or RLOC now is only
"typically" 
   an IPv4 or IPv6 address. Please lose "typically".  Minorly, the ,
   before both should be a ;.

2) top paragraph of p.4:
  "The initial motivation in the LISP effort is to be found in the
   routing scalability problem [RFC4984], where, if LISP is completely
   deployed, the Internet core is populated with RLOCs while Traffic
   Engineering mechanisms are pushed to the Mapping System."

   Instead of "LISP is completely deployed" to "LISP were to be
   completely deployed" - making it subjunctive.  

3) Last paragraph in Sec 1:
   "This document describes the LISP architecture, its main
   operational mechanisms as its design rationale."

   I think you mean 

   "This document describes the LISP architecture and its main
   operational mechanisms as well as its design rationale."

4) In Sec 3.1, second paragraph:
   "Locator/Identifier split: By decoupling the overloaded semantics
      of the current IP addresses the Internet core can be assigned
      identity meaningful addresses and hence, can use aggregation to
      scale."
   I assume that you mean "topologically meaningful addresses" instead
   of "identity meaningful addresses".



From nobody Wed Apr 15 08:05:11 2015
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
 This draft is a work item of the Locator/ID Separation Protocol Working Group of the IETF.

        Title           : LISP Delegated Database Tree
        Authors         : Vince Fuller
                          Darrel Lewis
                          Vina Ermagan
                          Amit Jain
	Filename        : draft-ietf-lisp-ddt-03.txt
	Pages           : 43
	Date            : 2015-04-15

Abstract:
   This draft describes the LISP Delegated Database Tree (LISP-DDT), a
   hierarchical, distributed database which embodies the delegation of
   authority to provide mappings from LISP Endpoint Identifiers (EIDs)
   to Routing Locators (RLOCs).  It is a statically-defined distribution
   of the EID namespace among a set of LISP-speaking servers, called DDT
   nodes.  Each DDT node is configured as "authoritative" for one or
   more EID-prefixes, along with the set of RLOCs for Map Servers or
   "child" DDT nodes to which more-specific EID-prefixes are delegated.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lisp-ddt/

There's also a htmlized version available at:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lisp-ddt-03

A diff from the previous version is available at:
http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-lisp-ddt-03


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IESG state changed to IESG Evaluation::External Party from IESG Evaluation::AD Followup
Waiting on IANA.
ID Tracker URL: http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lisp-introduction/


From nobody Wed Apr 15 09:20:19 2015
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Kathleen Moriarty has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-lisp-introduction-13: No Objection

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----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Please do look at the other suggestions from the review as they should
help clarify a few points in the draft and provide the background needed
for an introduction draft.  While the edits in the security section help
enough that I'll let it go, the other problems were not highlighted here
and will rely on subsequent drafts elaborating on the threats and
security considerations besides DoS.  I haven't read the threats draft
yet, so hopefully that covers the full set.  Thanks.
https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/secdir/current/msg05415.html



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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
 This draft is a work item of the Locator/ID Separation Protocol Working Group of the IETF.

        Title           : LISP-Security (LISP-SEC)
        Authors         : Fabio Maino
                          Vina Ermagan
                          Albert Cabellos
                          Damien Saucez
	Filename        : draft-ietf-lisp-sec-08.txt
	Pages           : 19
	Date            : 2015-04-17

Abstract:
   This memo specifies LISP-SEC, a set of security mechanisms that
   provides origin authentication, integrity and anti-replay protection
   to LISP's EID-to-RLOC mapping data conveyed via mapping lookup
   process.  LISP-SEC also enables verification of authorization on EID-
   prefix claims in Map-Reply messages.



The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lisp-sec/

There's also a htmlized version available at:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lisp-sec-08

A diff from the previous version is available at:
http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-lisp-sec-08


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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From: Ronald Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>
To: LISP mailing list list <lisp@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: VPN Leaks
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Subject: [lisp] VPN Leaks
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Folks,

In draft-ietf-lisp-eid-block-10 you say:

  Avoid excessive stretch:  In some deployment scenarios, in order to
         avoid packet drops, packets triggering a LISP Cache miss are
         forwarded toward a PETR, during the time necessary to perform a
         mapping lookup over the LISP mapping system.  Once a mapping is
         obtained packet are not forwarded anymore toward the PETR, they
         are LISP encapsulated and forwarded according to the LISP
         specifications.  The existence of a LISP specific EID block
         would allow to avoid scenarios with excessive overhead, where
         the destination is a LISP EID and where (while the mapping is
         looked up) packets are forwarded over paths like
         Source->ITR->PETR->PITR->ETR->Destination, which may show an
         excessive stretch factor and degraded performance.

Is this behavior documented anywhere else? If so, where?

Is this behavior also observed in IPv4 implementations?

Also, is there serious consideration to using LISP as a VPN mechanism (as s=
uggested in draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01 and draft-ietf-lisp-introduction-13).=
 If so, this behavior should be mentioned in the Threats document.

Ron Bonica


From nobody Mon Apr 20 07:52:46 2015
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>=20
> In draft-ietf-lisp-eid-block-10 you say:
>=20
>  Avoid excessive stretch:  In some deployment scenarios, in order to
>         avoid packet drops, packets triggering a LISP Cache miss are
>         forwarded toward a PETR, during the time necessary to perform =
a

This is actually incorrect. An ITR or PITR will encapsulate to a PETR, =
not when a cache miss happens but when the mapping system returns a =
=E2=80=9Cforward-native=E2=80=9D action in a Null Map-Reply (one with no =
locator-set).

>         mapping lookup over the LISP mapping system.  Once a mapping =
is
>         obtained packet are not forwarded anymore toward the PETR, =
they
>         are LISP encapsulated and forwarded according to the LISP

What is returned by the mapping system is the best least specific prefix =
that describes all non EID destinations within it.

This =E2=80=9Cforward-native=E2=80=9D entry is put in the map-cache with =
one or more PETRs in the locator-set. Current implementations configure =
this set of PETRs.

>         specifications.  The existence of a LISP specific EID block
>         would allow to avoid scenarios with excessive overhead, where
>         the destination is a LISP EID and where (while the mapping is
>         looked up) packets are forwarded over paths like
>         Source->ITR->PETR->PITR->ETR->Destination, which may show an

This is totally wrong. PITR, by definition, are not decapsulators. Maybe =
the author meant:

	Source -> ITR -> RTR -> ETR -> Destination

which is a different type of path and use-case then:

	Source -> ITR -> PETR -> Destination=20

where the PETR is natively forwarding to the destination. This is the =
case where a LISP-site is sending to a non-LISP site.

>         excessive stretch factor and degraded performance.
>=20
> Is this behavior documented anywhere else? If so, where?

The latter is in the Interworking RFC and the Deployment RFC.

> Is this behavior also observed in IPv4 implementations?

In all environments. Even VXLAN/LISP data-center environments.

> Also, is there serious consideration to using LISP as a VPN mechanism =
(as suggested in draft-ietf-lisp-impact-01 and =
draft-ietf-lisp-introduction-13). If so, this behavior should be =
mentioned in the Threats document.

Yes, there are several large deployments and there was a use-case ID =
that was written and has expired.

Dino

>=20
> Ron Bonica
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> lisp mailing list
> lisp@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lisp


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From: "Selina Heimlich (selina)" <selina@cisco.com>
To: Dino Farinacci <farinacci@gmail.com>, Ronald Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>
Thread-Topic: [lisp] VPN Leaks
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From nobody Mon Apr 20 08:28:23 2015
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From: Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl>
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Subject: Re: [lisp] VPN Leaks
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Hi,

>>        specifications.  The existence of a LISP specific EID block
>>        would allow to avoid scenarios with excessive overhead, where
>>        the destination is a LISP EID and where (while the mapping is
>>        looked up) packets are forwarded over paths like
>>        Source->ITR->PETR->PITR->ETR->Destination, which may show an
>=20
> This is totally wrong. PITR, by definition, are not decapsulators.

The example is correct, and the PITR in the example is an encapsulator. =
The ITR->PETR bit is encapsulated. The PETR->PITR bit is unencapsulated =
(probably BGP routed) internet traffic, and the PITR->ETR bit is =
encapsulated again.

Cheers!
Sander


From nobody Mon Apr 20 08:34:50 2015
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> Hi,
>=20
>>>       specifications.  The existence of a LISP specific EID block
>>>       would allow to avoid scenarios with excessive overhead, where
>>>       the destination is a LISP EID and where (while the mapping is
>>>       looked up) packets are forwarded over paths like
>>>       Source->ITR->PETR->PITR->ETR->Destination, which may show an
>>=20
>> This is totally wrong. PITR, by definition, are not decapsulators.
>=20
> The example is correct, and the PITR in the example is an =
encapsulator. The ITR->PETR bit is encapsulated. The PETR->PITR bit is =
unencapsulated (probably BGP routed) internet traffic, and the PITR->ETR =
bit is encapsulated again.

Then the example is not coded properly. It nees to be more specific for =
accuracy:

source (native forward) -> ITR (encap) -> PETR (native forward) -> PITR =
(encap) -> ETR (native forward) -> dest

Dino

>=20
> Cheers!
> Sander
>=20


From nobody Mon Apr 20 08:36:18 2015
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> Then the example is not coded properly. It nees to be more specific =
for accuracy:
>=20
> source (native forward) -> ITR (encap) -> PETR (native forward) -> =
PITR (encap) -> ETR (native forward) -> dest

Yep, that's it :)
Sander


From nobody Mon Apr 20 10:03:46 2015
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From: Luigi Iannone <ggx@gigix.net>
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Subject: [lisp] EID-Block clarification [was:  VPN Leaks]
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> On 20 Apr 2015, at 17:34, Dino Farinacci <farinacci@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
>=20
>> Hi,
>>=20
>>>>      specifications.  The existence of a LISP specific EID block
>>>>      would allow to avoid scenarios with excessive overhead, where
>>>>      the destination is a LISP EID and where (while the mapping is
>>>>      looked up) packets are forwarded over paths like
>>>>      Source->ITR->PETR->PITR->ETR->Destination, which may show an
>>>=20
>>> This is totally wrong. PITR, by definition, are not decapsulators.
>>=20
>> The example is correct, and the PITR in the example is an =
encapsulator. The ITR->PETR bit is encapsulated. The PETR->PITR bit is =
unencapsulated (probably BGP routed) internet traffic, and the PITR->ETR =
bit is encapsulated again.
>=20
> Then the example is not coded properly. It nees to be more specific =
for accuracy:
>=20
> source (native forward) -> ITR (encap) -> PETR (native forward) -> =
PITR (encap) -> ETR (native forward) -> dest

I would suggest:

source -> ITR (encap) -> PETR (recap) -> (native forward) -> PITR =
(encap) -> ETR (decap) -> dest

Because of the current status of the document (and as co-author) this =
can be done during the IESG review or right before forwarding it to the =
RFC queue if no other changes are required.

ciao

L.


>=20
> Dino
>=20
>>=20
>> Cheers!
>> Sander
>>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> lisp mailing list
> lisp@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lisp


From nobody Tue Apr 21 05:37:52 2015
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Subject: Re: [lisp] EID-Block clarification [was:  VPN Leaks]
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On 4/21/15 6:00 AM, Luigi Iannone wrote:
>=20
>> On 20 Apr 2015, at 17:34, Dino Farinacci <farinacci@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>=20
>>=20
>>> Hi,
>>>=20
>>>>> specifications.  The existence of a LISP specific EID block=20
>>>>> would allow to avoid scenarios with excessive overhead,
>>>>> where the destination is a LISP EID and where (while the
>>>>> mapping is looked up) packets are forwarded over paths like=20
>>>>> Source->ITR->PETR->PITR->ETR->Destination, which may show an
>>>>=20
>>>> This is totally wrong. PITR, by definition, are not
>>>> decapsulators.
>>>=20
>>> The example is correct, and the PITR in the example is an
>>> encapsulator. The ITR->PETR bit is encapsulated. The PETR->PITR
>>> bit is unencapsulated (probably BGP routed) internet traffic, and
>>> the PITR->ETR bit is encapsulated again.
>>=20
>> Then the example is not coded properly. It nees to be more specific
>> for accuracy:
>>=20
>> source (native forward) -> ITR (encap) -> PETR (native forward) ->
>> PITR (encap) -> ETR (native forward) -> dest
>=20
> I would suggest:
>=20
> source -> ITR (encap) -> PETR (recap) -> (native forward) -> PITR
> (encap) -> ETR (decap) -> dest
>=20
> Because of the current status of the document (and as co-author) this
> can be done during the IESG review or right before forwarding it to
> the RFC queue if no other changes are required.

The EID-block draft is in IETF Last Call, so you could consider the
above discussion a LC comment on it.

Brian

>=20
> ciao
>=20
> L.
>=20
>=20
>>=20
>> Dino
>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Cheers! Sander
>>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________ lisp mailing list=20
>> lisp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lisp
>=20
> _______________________________________________ lisp mailing list=20
> lisp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lisp
>=20


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Subject: Re: [lisp] EID-Block clarification [was:  VPN Leaks]
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> On 21 Apr 2015, at 14:37, Brian Haberman <brian@innovationslab.net> wrote:
> 
> 

[snip]
> 
> The EID-block draft is in IETF Last Call, so you could consider the
> above discussion a LC comment on it.
> 

Thanks Brian,

actually that was the purpose of my message. :-)

L.


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On 21 Apr 2015, at 14:37, Brian Haberman &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:brian@innovationslab.net" =
class=3D"">brian@innovationslab.net</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D""></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>[snip]</div><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: =
none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">The EID-block draft is in =
IETF Last Call, so you could consider the</span><br style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">above discussion a LC comment on it.</span><br =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><br style=3D"font-family:=
 Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Thanks Brian,</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>actually that was the purpose of my message. =
:-)</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>L.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div></div></body></html>=

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From nobody Tue Apr 21 08:36:48 2015
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From: Ronald Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>
To: Brian Haberman <brian@innovationslab.net>, "lisp@ietf.org" <lisp@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [lisp] EID-Block clarification [was:  VPN Leaks]
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Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2015 15:36:28 +0000
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Subject: Re: [lisp] EID-Block clarification [was:  VPN Leaks]
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Folks,

Given Dino's response in http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/lisp/current/=
msg05945.html, shouldn't we remove the entire bullet item? As Dino says, "A=
n ITR or PITR will encapsulate to a PETR, not when a cache miss happens but=
 when the mapping system returns a "forward-native" action in a Null Map-Re=
ply (one with no locator-set)."

                                                                           =
      Ron


> -----Original Message-----
> From: lisp [mailto:lisp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Brian Haberman
> Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2015 8:38 AM
> To: lisp@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [lisp] EID-Block clarification [was: VPN Leaks]
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On 4/21/15 6:00 AM, Luigi Iannone wrote:
> >
> >> On 20 Apr 2015, at 17:34, Dino Farinacci <farinacci@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>> Hi,
> >>>
> >>>>> specifications.  The existence of a LISP specific EID block would
> >>>>> allow to avoid scenarios with excessive overhead, where the
> >>>>> destination is a LISP EID and where (while the mapping is looked
> >>>>> up) packets are forwarded over paths like
> >>>>> Source->ITR->PETR->PITR->ETR->Destination, which may show an
> >>>>
> >>>> This is totally wrong. PITR, by definition, are not decapsulators.
> >>>
> >>> The example is correct, and the PITR in the example is an
> >>> encapsulator. The ITR->PETR bit is encapsulated. The PETR->PITR bit
> >>> is unencapsulated (probably BGP routed) internet traffic, and the
> >>> PITR->ETR bit is encapsulated again.
> >>
> >> Then the example is not coded properly. It nees to be more specific
> >> for accuracy:
> >>
> >> source (native forward) -> ITR (encap) -> PETR (native forward) ->
> >> PITR (encap) -> ETR (native forward) -> dest
> >
> > I would suggest:
> >
> > source -> ITR (encap) -> PETR (recap) -> (native forward) -> PITR
> > (encap) -> ETR (decap) -> dest
> >
> > Because of the current status of the document (and as co-author) this
> > can be done during the IESG review or right before forwarding it to
> > the RFC queue if no other changes are required.
>=20
> The EID-block draft is in IETF Last Call, so you could consider the above
> discussion a LC comment on it.
>=20
> Brian
>=20
> >
> > ciao
> >
> > L.
> >
> >
> >>
> >> Dino
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Cheers! Sander
> >>>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________ lisp mailing
> list
> >> lisp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lisp
> >
> > _______________________________________________ lisp mailing
> list
> > lisp@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lisp
> >


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Subject: Re: [lisp] EID-Block clarification [was:  VPN Leaks]
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> On Apr 21, 2015, at 3:00 AM, Luigi Iannone <ggx@gigix.net> wrote:
>=20
> source -> ITR (encap) -> PETR (recap) -> (native forward) -> PITR (encap) -=
> ETR (decap) -> dest

There is no recap in the PETR. It simply strips a LISP header and forwards t=
he packet.=20

Dino=


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> On 21 Apr 2015, at 17:49, Dino Farinacci <farinacci@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
>> On Apr 21, 2015, at 3:00 AM, Luigi Iannone <ggx@gigix.net> wrote:
>>=20
>> source -> ITR (encap) -> PETR (recap) -> (native forward) -> PITR =
(encap) -> ETR (decap) -> dest
>=20
> There is no recap in the PETR. It simply strips a LISP header and =
forwards the packet.=20

You are right. It has to be =E2=80=9Cdecap=E2=80=9D.

L.


>=20
> Dino


From nobody Tue Apr 21 10:18:29 2015
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Right.=20

Dino

> On Apr 21, 2015, at 10:09 AM, Luigi Iannone <ggx@gigix.net> wrote:
>=20
>=20
>> On 21 Apr 2015, at 17:49, Dino Farinacci <farinacci@gmail.com> wrote:
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>> On Apr 21, 2015, at 3:00 AM, Luigi Iannone <ggx@gigix.net> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> source -> ITR (encap) -> PETR (recap) -> (native forward) -> PITR (encap=
) -> ETR (decap) -> dest
>>=20
>> There is no recap in the PETR. It simply strips a LISP header and forward=
s the packet.
>=20
> You are right. It has to be =E2=80=9Cdecap=E2=80=9D.
>=20
> L.
>=20
>=20
>>=20
>> Dino
>=20


From nobody Thu Apr 23 13:59:32 2015
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Congratulations to the authors and the working group.
Joel


-------- Forwarded Message --------
Subject: Approved: draft-ietf-lisp-introduction
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2015 14:06:37 -0400
From: Brian Haberman <brian@innovationslab.net>
To: 'The IESG' <iesg@ietf.org>, lisp-chairs@ietf.org

Secretariat (BCC:'ed),
      The document draft-ietf-lisp-introduction is now approved.  Please
move it along in the publication process.

Regards,
Brian





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From nobody Thu Apr 23 14:25:24 2015
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Subject: [lisp] Document Action: 'An Architectural Introduction to the Locator/ID Separation Protocol (LISP)' to Informational RFC (draft-ietf-lisp-introduction-13.txt)
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The IESG has approved the following document:
- 'An Architectural Introduction to the Locator/ID Separation Protocol
   (LISP)'
  (draft-ietf-lisp-introduction-13.txt) as Informational RFC

This document is the product of the Locator/ID Separation Protocol
Working Group.

The IESG contact persons are Brian Haberman, Alvaro Retana, Alia Atlas
and Deborah Brungard.

A URL of this Internet Draft is:
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lisp-introduction/




Technical Summary:

	  The document provides an introductionary overview of the
	  the architecture of the Locator/ID Separation Protocol
	  (LISP). The aim of this document is to ease the reading
	  of the complete LISP specifications.


Working Group Summary:

	  The document received a strong support from the WG from the
	  very beginning, when was an individual submission. An
	  intermin meeting has been organized in 2013 in order to make
	  progress on the document, which however was growing large.
	  Due to the lack of the activity of the original author, two
	  new editors have been appointed by the WG chairs. Since then,
	  the document has progressed rapidly and has been wrapped up
	  in few months, thanks to the large support and contribution
	  of the WG.


Document Quality:

Are there existing implementations of the protocol? Have a significant
number of vendors indicated their plan to implement the specification?
Are there any reviewers that merit special mention as having done a
thorough review, e.g., one that resulted in important changes or a
conclusion that the document had no substantive issues? If there was a
MIB Doctor, Media Type or other expert review, what was its course
(briefly)? In the case of a Media Type review, on what date was the
request posted? 

	  The document does not define any new protocol or mechanism, 
	  hence no special review is needed. 
	  Its informational content is well written and of a high standard. 


Personnel:

Who is the Document Shepherd? 

       	  Luigi Iannone <ggx@gigix.net>    
     
  	   	    	    
Who is the Responsible Area Director?

          Brian Haberman <brian@innovationslab.net>


From nobody Mon Apr 27 03:04:53 2015
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Subject: [lisp] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lisp-eid-block-11.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
 This draft is a work item of the Locator/ID Separation Protocol Working Group of the IETF.

        Title           : LISP EID Block
        Authors         : Luigi Iannone
                          Darrel Lewis
                          David Meyer
                          Vince Fuller
	Filename        : draft-ietf-lisp-eid-block-11.txt
	Pages           : 16
	Date            : 2015-04-27

Abstract:
   This is a direction to IANA to allocate a /32 IPv6 prefix for use
   with the Locator/ID Separation Protocol (LISP).  The prefix will be
   used for local intra-domain routing and global endpoint
   identification, by sites deploying LISP as EID (Endpoint IDentifier)
   addressing space.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lisp-eid-block/

There's also a htmlized version available at:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lisp-eid-block-11

A diff from the previous version is available at:
http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-lisp-eid-block-11


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

