From nobody Mon Jun 1 08:36:06 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lisp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lisp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBDE61B2A87 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2015 08:36:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XvpNDclF_oGh for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2015 08:36:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from na01-by2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-by2on0131.outbound.protection.outlook.com [207.46.100.131]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 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MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 01 Jun 2015 15:35:34.2669 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BY1PR0501MB1430 Archived-At: Cc: LISP mailing list list Subject: Re: [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-02 X-BeenThere: lisp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List for the discussion of the Locator/ID Separation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2015 15:36:06 -0000 --_000_BY1PR0501MB14301C95C338B693B870DCEBA5B60BY1PR0501MB1430_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 PuKApg0KPiAgICBUaGVyZSBzdGlsbCBhcmUgbWFueSwgZWNvbm9taWNhbCBhbmQgdGVjaG5pY2Fs LCBvcGVuIHF1ZXN0aW9ucyByZWxhdGVkIHRvDQo+ICAgIHRoZSBkZXBsb3ltZW50IG9mIHN1Y2gg 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10024) with ESMTP id kzY_CfYveRga for ; Tue, 2 Jun 2015 04:53:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emh07.mail.saunalahti.fi (emh07.mail.saunalahti.fi [62.142.5.117]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 253241B2D65 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 2015 04:53:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LK-Perkele-VII (a91-155-194-207.elisa-laajakaista.fi [91.155.194.207]) by emh07.mail.saunalahti.fi (Postfix) with ESMTP id 796244043; Tue, 2 Jun 2015 14:53:19 +0300 (EEST) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2015 14:53:19 +0300 From: Ilari Liusvaara To: "Brian Weis (bew)" Message-ID: <20150602115319.GA15906@LK-Perkele-VII> References: <20150501225938.17488.33586.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <20150502072254.GA6857@LK-Perkele-VII> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) Sender: Ilari Liusvaara Archived-At: Cc: LISP mailing list list Subject: Re: [lisp] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lisp-crypto-01.txt X-BeenThere: lisp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List for the discussion of the Locator/ID Separation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2015 11:53:24 -0000 On Tue, May 05, 2015 at 06:46:57AM +0000, Brian Weis (bew) wrote: > Hi Ilari, > > Thanks for your comments. > > On May 2, 2015, at 12:22 AM, Ilari Liusvaara wrote: > > > On Fri, May 01, 2015 at 04:04:03PM -0700, Dino Farinacci wrote: > >> Folks, this draft contains the following changes: > >> > >> B.1. Changes to draft-ietf-lisp-crypto-01.txt > >> > >> o Posted May 2015. > >> > >> o Create cipher suites and encode them in the Security LCAF. > >> > >> o Add IV to beginning of packet header and ICV to end of packet. > >> > >> o AEAD procedures are now part of encryption process. > > > > At least I can follow how the algorithms work. Remaining issues/notes: > > - It composes AEAD mode instaed of using ready-made one. The composed > > mode is if nothing else slow (SHA-1 is already slower than some > > ready-made AEAD modes). > > These are the algorithms we’re comfortable with for now. We could > have specified the combined AEAD mode cipher modes, but they add > complexity in the form of maintaining a counter for the nonce. What kind of memory is the association data in? Something that isn't volatile or which can't sustain fast updates? Any reason why "count and if you lose position, just rekey" wouldn't work. Note that designing AEAD algorithms is quite nontrivial. And making one with bad performance is easy too. > > - Key derivation looks to be missing hashing in important parameters > > (like group and exchange keys) into secrets. > > Not sure which parameters you mean? The DH shared secret is the > key for the KDF, I’m not sure why we’d provide any other keys as input > to the KDF. The problem is that by manipulating things like ciphers, groups or exchange keys (even one-sided), attackers can make strange things happen. Hashing such parameters is especially important if some sort of connection "figerprint" is provoded for MITM detection. If unsure what to hash, just dump the LCAFs into session key derivation as a whole. At least TLS took nasty attacks from not hashing in the exchange keys (g^x, g^y or xG, yG). Also, found another potential issue. There is no nonce field, which means that public keys can't be safely reused, but must be regenerated for each use. This would be especially troublesome for computationally-limited and memory-limited devices. If one has no space for auxillary tables, one needs to do DH operation to generate a key (which doubles key exchange CPU usage). With tables one can push it to about one third of DH operation, but at cost of tens (ECDH) or hundreds (DH) of kB of static tables. Of course, when reusing DH keys, one shouldn't keep them valid for too long. IIRC, Daniel J. Bernstein recommended ten seconds a while back, and considered several hours some products did as too long. > > - Some NIST-spec KDF? I think there are RFCs that describe KDFs. > > Yes, there’s RFC 5869 but the NIST KDFs are also widely used. I think RFC 5869 is much more used in IETF protocols than NIST KDFs. > > - 1024-bit DH is regarded as quite weak nowadays. > > - Two new ECDH functions from CFRG were recently annouced[1]. > > Should be faster than DH1024/DH2048 with way smaller keys. > > We do need less computationally demanding ciphers for deices that do > crypto in ARM based platforms, which explains the 1024-bit DH (and yes, > we realize it is weak). As stated in the Future Work section we will > be looking at these ECDH functions and should have some results > before the Prague meeting. If we can replace the 1024-bit DH we will. Something came up when investigating the TLS Logjam mess. Experts guess that NSA has computed "logarithm tables" for a few common 1024-bit DH groups. Those tables allow breaking DH very quickly. The authors of research on TLS Logjam recommended regarding use of DH: - Use ECDH (beweare of weak 160-bit curves and backdoored curves) - Named (fixed) groups need to be 2048 bits at least (beware of back- doored groups) - If needing to use 1024-bit DH, generate your own group and change it frequently. - Don't use <1024 bit DH at all. -Ilari From nobody Wed Jun 3 00:55:01 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lisp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lisp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 915301B35FF for ; Wed, 3 Jun 2015 00:54:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id s6rq7lfw2gce for ; Wed, 3 Jun 2015 00:54:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-f170.google.com (mail-wi0-f170.google.com [209.85.212.170]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 72FA71B348C for ; Wed, 3 Jun 2015 00:54:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wiwd19 with SMTP id d19so43113499wiw.0 for ; Wed, 03 Jun 2015 00:54:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:content-type:mime-version:subject:from :in-reply-to:date:cc:message-id:references:to; bh=miaFOZeKw1W8uDpRMPtaBcKQCps/oWFtCOcwfbJMu08=; b=kjSc1KicSPIzmIZGlZu6ezQGLnC5MwMjvGthcRYg4oVvg2rQNzygmU/Ni7Zynp8q2r f2u4F2ObXRhMFh4+6Hdnjbfgng1c2yF7ur7FHMEsUFPckGbLkfuABMLS3QbzK4cDHUGy +Ixq3fvr0agrafkstRcwEhuG3V+G50/qh5KEnsqj6Mv8GdgaZmK+IUiqwnAewKIQGGQA qFnTl4aWGFDJpzm4McDqFYeoWdpN0npGCocagHwRABoNuTn+dvUkopVnDkP2nswBP1jw Mh5jpa2TYYZdQtfoHpdGQCYLx5eLE+uCRWw8tSmDfTA9R+KxyqtCAgAyTg1B7BkG1uZw ZSLg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlrbXiKGWZkZrIzmrB2ZdgT9tUO5dyguRw7Y/fRvmxGa79tlgeM3ue3EWHa/Uu+CdLxrg7p X-Received: by 10.194.250.98 with SMTP id zb2mr59270019wjc.90.1433318094010; Wed, 03 Jun 2015 00:54:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2001:660:330f:a4:d4de:3100:e834:a07a? ([2001:660:330f:a4:d4de:3100:e834:a07a]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id q4sm30459963wja.24.2015.06.03.00.54.52 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 03 Jun 2015 00:54:52 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_FE0680B6-A9DE-4816-8381-E20043F63B91" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2098\)) From: Luigi Iannone In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2015 09:54:52 +0200 Message-Id: <199AEC90-B132-4493-BB7D-E3088093F222@gigix.net> References: <96CCC975-4D04-46F4-ABA9-D5BF6A77C451@gigix.net> <1F6A3E9B-62E7-4B5D-99F3-2DE6AC0FB13F@gigix.net> To: Ross Callon X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2098) Archived-At: Cc: LISP mailing list list Subject: Re: [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-02 X-BeenThere: lisp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List for the discussion of the Locator/ID Separation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2015 07:54:59 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_FE0680B6-A9DE-4816-8381-E20043F63B91 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Ross, Comments inline. ciao L. > On 01 Jun 2015, at 17:35, Ross Callon wrote: >=20 > >=E2=80=A6 > > There still are many, economical and technical, open questions = related to > > the deployment of such infrastructure. > >=20 > > The purpose of the draft is to document what we know about the = impact on the existing Internet. > > The right thing to do is to delete at once that sentence, because it = does not document any impact. > =20 > I think that this sentence is a good summary of the overall document, = and thus I think that it is valuable to leave it in. As a summary, I = could see it making sense towards the end of the document, although = there doesn=E2=80=99t seem to be anywhere towards the end to put it. > =20 > Thinking about this a bit more: What is essentially being proposed = with LISP is a new addressing and routing paradigm for the core of the = Internet, and the Internet is rapidly becoming pretty much the control = plane for the world. As such, if there are potentially issues then I = think that we have a responsibility to say so. In this case it is pretty = clear reading through this document, or just thinking through the issues = and reading the full set of LISP documents, that there are both economic = and technical =E2=80=9Copen questions related to the deployment of such = infrastructure=E2=80=9D and as such I think that we need to explicitly = say this. > =20 >=20 I see your point, what about the following sentence: LISP comprises both an tunnel-based data plane=20 and a distributed control plane for the Internet, hence,=20 being more than simple encapsulation technology,=20 open questions related to the deployment of such=20 infrastructure remains. > >=E2=80=A6 > > The overhead related to OAM traffic (for example, for liveness = detection) is not known. > >=20 > > Rather it would go in section 5.2 as a separate item. > =20 > I think that putting this as a separate item in section 5.2 makes = sense. > =20 >=20 Agreed > =20 > >=E2=80=A6 > > NEW > > The above assumptions are in line with [RFC7215] and current LISP > > deployments, however, such situation may change in the long term. > > For example, the first bullet above assumes that only edge = networks > > already owning their address space (current PI address owners) = will > > switch to LISP. Speculating whether and how PA owning edge = networks > > might switch to LISP was outside the scope. Nevertheless, [KIF13] = and > > [CDLC] explore different EDI prefix space > > sizes, still showing results that are consistent and equivalent to = the > > above assumptions. > >=20 > > What if instead it is explicated in the first bullet: > >=20 > > EID-to-RLOC mappings follow the same prefix size as the = current > > BGP routing infrastructure (using a PI model); > =20 > I think that the point here is not just that it is following the PI = model, but that it is assuming a scale that only the current PI=E2=80=99s = are going to use LISP (and therefore be in the mapping table). How = about: > =20 > > EID-to-RLOC mappings follow the same prefix size as the = current > > BGP routing infrastructure (current PI addresses only) Agreed > =20 > Thanks, Ross > =20 > From: Luigi Iannone [mailto:ggx@gigix.net]=20 > Sent: Friday, May 29, 2015 8:34 AM > To: Ross Callon > Cc: LISP mailing list list > Subject: re: [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-02 > =20 > Hi Ross, > =20 > thanks for your review. > =20 > I think that your comments can be easily accommodate. > Have a look inline. > =20 > ciao > =20 > L. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > On 27 May 2015, at 23:46, Ross Callon > wrote: >=20 >=20 > The document seems much improved. I still have three issues which = should be corrected before the document is ready for publication. > =20 > =20 > Section 1, last paragraph, second sentence. This currently reads: > =20 > There still are many, economical rather than technical, open = questions related to > the deployment of such infrastructure. > =20 > However, it is clear that there are both economical and technical = issues. As examples of technical issues, later in the document (section = 5.2) talks about the difficulty in troubleshooting, and states =E2=80=9C=E2= =80=A6the major issue that years of LISP experimentation have shown is = the difficulty of troubleshooting. When there is a problem in the = network, it is hard to pin-point the reason as the operator only has a = partial view of the network=E2=80=9D. This is of course one example of a = technical issue (another related one is my next comment below). Thus I = think that it would be correct to change this sentence to state: > =20 > There still are many, economical and technical, open questions = related to > the deployment of such infrastructure. > =20 >=20 > The purpose of the draft is to document what we know about the impact = on the existing Internet. > The right thing to do is to delete at once that sentence, because it = does not document any impact.=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > =20 > This might have been lost in the vigorous discussion of other issues = which occurred during the first WGLC, however, my comments from the = previous WGLC included one point which has not been addressed. This = comment was:=20 > =20 > > Finally, perhaps I missed it but I didn=E2=80=99t see any discussion = of the > > volume of overhead related to OAM traffic used for liveness = detection > > (the need for ITR=E2=80=99s to determine the reachability of = ETR=E2=80=99s). > =20 > I still think that we need discussion of the overhead related to OAM = traffic. If this is not known, it might be appropriate simply to add to = the second paragraph of section 1 something along the lines of: > =20 > The overhead related to OAM traffic (for example, for liveness = detection) is not known. > =20 >=20 > Rather it would go in section 5.2 as a separate item. >=20 >=20 > =20 > Also, in section 3, first bullet after the first paragraph, the = document currently states: > =20 > o EID-to-RLOC mappings follow the same prefix size as the current > BGP routing infrastructure; > =20 > In email in our earlier discussion Florin Coras stated: > =20 > > The goal our experiments was to understand the > > performance of LISP map-caches if edge > > networks already owning their address space (PI address owners) were = to > > switch to LISP. Speculating if and how PA owning edge networks are = to > > switch to LISP was outside the scope. > =20 > I think that these two points are saying the same thing. However, I am = not sure whether most (or all) readers will understand that the bullet = point in the current document implies the point that Florin made in his = email. We could clarify this in the next paragraph as follows: > =20 > OLD > The above assumptions are inline with [RFC7215] and current LISP > deployments, however, such situation may change in the long term. > Nevertheless, [KIF13] and [CDLC] explore different EDI prefix space > sizes, still showing results that are consitent and equivalent to = the > above assumptions. > =20 > NEW > The above assumptions are in line with [RFC7215] and current LISP > deployments, however, such situation may change in the long term. > For example, the first bullet above assumes that only edge networks > already owning their address space (current PI address owners) will > switch to LISP. Speculating whether and how PA owning edge networks > might switch to LISP was outside the scope. Nevertheless, [KIF13] = and > [CDLC] explore different EDI prefix space > sizes, still showing results that are consistent and equivalent to = the > above assumptions. >=20 > What if instead it is explicated in the first bullet: >=20 > EID-to-RLOC mappings follow the same prefix size as the = current > BGP routing infrastructure (using a PI model); >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > =20 > Thanks, Ross > =20 > =20 > From: lisp [mailto:lisp-bounces@ietf.org = ] On Behalf Of Luigi Iannone > Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2015 3:44 PM > To: LISP mailing list list > Cc: Joel Halpern Direct > Subject: [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-02 > =20 > Hi All, > =20 > the authors of the LISP Impact document = [https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-lisp-impact-02.txt = ] > submitted a new version of the draft and requested the Work Group Last = Call. > =20 > This email starts a WG Last Call, to end May 28th, 2015. > =20 > Please review this updated WG document and let the WG know if you = agree that it is ready for handing to the AD. > If you have objections, please state your reasons why, and explain = what it would take to address your concerns. > =20 > Thanks >=20 > Luigi & Joel > =20 --Apple-Mail=_FE0680B6-A9DE-4816-8381-E20043F63B91 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi Ross,

Comments inline.

ciao

L.



On = 01 Jun 2015, at 17:35, Ross Callon <rcallon@juniper.net>= wrote:

>=E2=80=A6

>    There still are = many, economical and technical, open questions related to

>    the deployment = of such infrastructure.

> 

> The purpose of the draft is to = document what we know about the impact on the existing Internet.

> The right thing to do is to delete = at once that sentence, because it does not document any impact.

 

I think that this sentence is a good = summary of the overall document, and thus I think that it is valuable to = leave it in. As a summary, I could see it making sense towards the end of the document, although there doesn=E2=80=99t = seem to be anywhere towards the end to put it.

 

Thinking about this a bit more: What is = essentially being proposed with LISP is a new addressing and routing = paradigm for the core of the Internet, and the Internet is rapidly becoming pretty much the control plane for the = world. As such, if there are potentially issues then I think that we = have a responsibility to say so. In this case it is pretty clear reading = through this document, or just thinking through the issues and reading the full set of LISP documents, that there are = both economic and technical =E2=80=9Copen questions related to the = deployment of such infrastructure=E2=80=9D and as such I think that we = need to explicitly say this.

 



I see your point, what about the = following sentence:

= LISP comprises both an tunnel-based data plane 
= and a distributed control plane for the Internet, = hence, 
being more than simple = encapsulation technology, 
open = questions related to the deployment of such 
= infrastructure remains.


>=E2=80=A6

>    The overhead = related to OAM traffic (for example, for liveness detection) is not = known.

> 

> Rather it would go in section 5.2 = as a separate item.

 

I think that putting this as a separate = item in section 5.2 makes sense.

 



Agreed


 

>=E2=80=A6

> NEW

>   The above assumptions = are in line with [RFC7215] and current LISP

>   deployments, however, = such situation may change in the long term.

>   For example, the first = bullet above assumes that only edge networks

>   already owning their = address space (current PI address owners) will

>   switch to LISP. = Speculating whether and how PA owning edge networks

>   might switch to LISP = was outside the scope. Nevertheless, [KIF13] and

>   [CDLC] explore = different EDI prefix space

>   sizes, still showing = results that are consistent and equivalent to the

>   above assumptions.

> 

> What if instead it is explicated = in the first bullet:

> 

>          = ;   EID-to-RLOC mappings follow the same prefix size as the = current

>    =          BGP routing = infrastructure (using a PI model);

 

I think that the point here is not just = that it is following the PI model, but that it is assuming a scale that = only the current PI=E2=80=99s are going to use LISP (and therefore be in the mapping table). How about:

 

>          = ;   EID-to-RLOC mappings follow the same prefix size as the = current

>    =          BGP routing = infrastructure (current PI addresses = only)


Agreed


 

Thanks, Ross

 

From: Luigi Iannone [mailto:ggx@gigix.net]
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2015 8:34 AM
To: Ross Callon
Cc: LISP mailing list list
Subject: re: [lisp] WG Last Call = draft-ietf-lisp-impact-02

 

Hi Ross,

 

thanks for your review.

 

I think that your comments can be = easily accommodate.

Have a look inline.

 

ciao

 

L.





On 27 May 2015, at 23:46, Ross = Callon <rcallon@juniper.net> wrote:


The document seems much improved. I = still have three issues which should be corrected before the document is = ready for publication.
 
 
Section 1, last paragraph, second = sentence. This currently reads:
 
    There still are many, = economical rather than technical, open questions related to
    the deployment of such = infrastructure.
 
However, it is clear that there are = both economical and technical issues. As examples of technical issues, = later in the document (section 5.2) talks about the difficulty in = troubleshooting, and states =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6the major issue that years of LISP = experimentation have shown is the difficulty of troubleshooting.  = When there is a problem in the network, it is hard to pin-point the = reason as the operator only has a partial view of the network=E2=80=9D. = This is of course one example of a technical issue (another related one is my next = comment below). Thus I think that it would be correct to change this = sentence to state:
 
    There still are many, = economical and technical, open questions related to
    the deployment of such = infrastructure.

 


The purpose of the draft is to document what we know about the = impact on the existing Internet.
The right thing to do is to delete at once that sentence, because it = does not document any impact. 



 
This might have been lost in the = vigorous discussion of other issues which occurred during the first = WGLC, however, my comments from the previous WGLC included one point = which has not been addressed. This comment was: 
 
> Finally, perhaps I missed it but I = didn=E2=80=99t see any discussion of the
> volume of overhead related to OAM = traffic used for liveness detection
> (the need for ITR=E2=80=99s to = determine the reachability of ETR=E2=80=99s).
 
I still think that we need discussion = of the overhead related to OAM traffic. If this is not known, it might = be appropriate simply to add to the second paragraph of section 1 = something along the lines of:
 
    The overhead related to = OAM traffic (for example, for liveness detection) is not = known.

 


Rather it would go in section 5.2 as a separate item.


          =      
Also, in section 3, first bullet after = the first paragraph, the document currently states:
 
   o  EID-to-RLOC = mappings follow the same prefix size as the current
      BGP routing = infrastructure;
 
In email in our earlier discussion = Florin Coras stated:
 
> The goal our experiments was to = understand the
> performance of LISP map-caches if = edge
> networks already owning their = address space (PI address owners) were to
> switch to LISP. Speculating if and = how PA owning edge networks are to
> switch to LISP was outside the = scope.
 
I think that these two points are = saying the same thing. However, I am not sure whether most (or all) = readers will understand that the bullet point in the current document = implies the point that Florin made in his email. We could clarify this in the = next paragraph as follows:
 
OLD
   The above assumptions are = inline with [RFC7215] and current LISP
   deployments, however, such = situation may change in the long term.
   Nevertheless, [KIF13] and = [CDLC] explore different EDI prefix space
   sizes, still showing = results that are consitent and equivalent to the
   above = assumptions.
 
NEW
   The above assumptions are = in line with [RFC7215] and current LISP
   deployments, however, such = situation may change in the long term.
   For example, the first = bullet above assumes that only edge networks
   already owning their = address space (current PI address owners) will
   switch to LISP. = Speculating whether and how PA owning edge networks
   might switch to LISP was = outside the scope. Nevertheless, [KIF13] and
   [CDLC] explore different = EDI prefix space
   sizes, still showing = results that are consistent and equivalent to the

   above = assumptions.


What if instead it is explicated in the first bullet:

        &= nbsp;   EID-to-RLOC mappings follow the same prefix = size as the current
            BGP = routing infrastructure (using a PI model);








 
Thanks, Ross
 
 
From: lisp [mailto:lisp-bounces@ietf.org] On = Behalf Of Luigi Iannone
Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2015 3:44 PM
To: LISP mailing list list
Cc: Joel Halpern Direct
Subject: [lisp] WG Last Call = draft-ietf-lisp-impact-02
 
Hi All,
 
the authors of the LISP Impact document  [https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-lisp-impact-02.txt<= /a>]
submitted a new version of the draft and requested the Work Group Last = Call.
 
This email starts a WG Last Call, to end May 28th, 2015.
 
Please review this updated WG document and let the WG know if you agree = that it is ready for handing to the AD.
If you have objections, please state your reasons why, and explain what = it would take to address your concerns.
 
Thanks

Luigi & Joel

 


= --Apple-Mail=_FE0680B6-A9DE-4816-8381-E20043F63B91-- From nobody Wed Jun 3 18:25:07 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lisp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lisp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E86F61B3132 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 2015 18:25:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IyibeCJcVjeM for ; Wed, 3 Jun 2015 18:25:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from na01-bl2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bl2on0114.outbound.protection.outlook.com [65.55.169.114]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate 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X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 04 Jun 2015 01:24:57.0012 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BY1PR0501MB1429 Archived-At: Cc: LISP mailing list list Subject: Re: [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-02 X-BeenThere: lisp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List for the discussion of the Locator/ID Separation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2015 01:25:06 -0000 --_000_BY1PR0501MB143061359489A70478CFC14FA5B30BY1PR0501MB1430_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 PiBJIHNlZSB5b3VyIHBvaW50LCB3aGF0IGFib3V0IHRoZSBmb2xsb3dpbmcgc2VudGVuY2U6DQo+ DQo+ICAgICAgICAgICAgIExJU1AgY29tcHJpc2VzIGJvdGggYW4gdHVubmVsLWJhc2VkIGRhdGEg 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--_000_BY1PR0501MB143061359489A70478CFC14FA5B30BY1PR0501MB1430_-- From nobody Wed Jun 3 22:26:51 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lisp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lisp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAF311A00A7 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 2015 22:26:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cTyirF9HoLWB for ; Wed, 3 Jun 2015 22:26:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qc0-x22f.google.com (mail-qc0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c01::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client 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([2601:9:4701:1df0:25ee:4fba:5f8a:ba86]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id 188sm1787741qhh.48.2015.06.03.22.26.45 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 03 Jun 2015 22:26:45 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-C100B2F3-12D5-4D1C-A871-4467D1019E15 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Dino Farinacci X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (12F70) In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2015 22:26:44 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <82E787F8-1BD1-4F2F-A286-227873019288@gmail.com> References: <96CCC975-4D04-46F4-ABA9-D5BF6A77C451@gigix.net> <1F6A3E9B-62E7-4B5D-99F3-2DE6AC0FB13F@gigix.net> <199AEC90-B132-4493-BB7D-E3088093F222@gigix.net> To: Ross Callon Archived-At: Cc: LISP mailing list list Subject: Re: [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-02 X-BeenThere: lisp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List for the discussion of the Locator/ID Separation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2015 05:26:50 -0000 --Apple-Mail-C100B2F3-12D5-4D1C-A871-4467D1019E15 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jun 3, 2015, at 6:24 PM, Ross Callon wrote: >=20 > =20 >=20 > Does this sound about right? >=20 I think the text you suggest is fine. But we haven't ever used the term "OAM= " before. I would like all the documentation to be consistent so would sugge= st using "RLOC reach ability mechanisms".=20 Dino= --Apple-Mail-C100B2F3-12D5-4D1C-A871-4467D1019E15 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

 

Does this sound about right?


I think the text you suggest is fine. But we haven't ever used the term "OAM" before. I would like all the documentation to be consistent so would suggest using "RLOC reach ability mechanisms". 

Dino
--Apple-Mail-C100B2F3-12D5-4D1C-A871-4467D1019E15-- From nobody Thu Jun 4 00:56:57 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lisp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lisp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADD481B29A2 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2015 00:56:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jFNW_rY-t5jq for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2015 00:56:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-f181.google.com (mail-wi0-f181.google.com [209.85.212.181]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B8CD01AD259 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2015 00:56:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wiwd19 with SMTP id d19so12583955wiw.0 for ; Thu, 04 Jun 2015 00:56:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:content-type:mime-version:subject:from :in-reply-to:date:cc:message-id:references:to; bh=CQdfTScaODvq/HAPBWiy96vOgyVrh9CP1nSeMoKOIns=; b=arn0NRclctizfatenf8DglV2zllKe8GtnRGPjLnYeiETJ2rLlq/N8FzeMyx5Sp1w3I xq9yMAOSZSuQyYVAVj4iubAd1EQ7HsP0rChUDLE9VmzVmC/UleE4Opg+6ePWnvPzoFGp mubmtfF/bls0NJUWS4PAFYt6p2+JmVflSGWrANhIwiUpHBRBUivwBiB98sAMDwhKQpmn asYN48MDk0L5sXsFyi9UicsP53mH+obpR9gdENhCY5xLEzQlgAldX8Sh1U3Ajx1cSge6 6WWEd+qdp8AfVZs/klXjkfEEUhlncP33lE3SQT5prWTmSFQ7NTo5a+DdLp4Wxc9AnJ3o keIQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmqkDTLpuvtQjZbCghE6nt08PO51V/+mpORP+8ixhMF5S6jfuasHbs/oZCGC7St74V8GE4N X-Received: by 10.180.94.35 with SMTP id cz3mr5151356wib.85.1433404608293; Thu, 04 Jun 2015 00:56:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2001:660:330f:a4:f44e:fd93:19fe:c165? ([2001:660:330f:a4:f44e:fd93:19fe:c165]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id gt10sm5090122wib.20.2015.06.04.00.56.46 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 04 Jun 2015 00:56:46 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_C7FEE32E-0E9A-4927-9088-C4229B596C42" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2098\)) From: Luigi Iannone In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2015 09:56:51 +0200 Message-Id: <014069EB-7EC0-4789-80CD-78BF73494F1F@gigix.net> References: <96CCC975-4D04-46F4-ABA9-D5BF6A77C451@gigix.net> <1F6A3E9B-62E7-4B5D-99F3-2DE6AC0FB13F@gigix.net> <199AEC90-B132-4493-BB7D-E3088093F222@gigix.net> To: Ross Callon X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2098) Archived-At: Cc: LISP mailing list list Subject: Re: [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-02 X-BeenThere: lisp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List for the discussion of the Locator/ID Separation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2015 07:56:54 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_C7FEE32E-0E9A-4927-9088-C4229B596C42 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On 04 Jun 2015, at 03:24, Ross Callon wrote: >=20 > > I see your point, what about the following sentence: > >=20 > > LISP comprises both an tunnel-based data plane > > and a distributed control plane for the Internet, hence, > > being more than simple encapsulation technology, > > open questions related to the deployment of such > > infrastructure remains. > =20 > I think that this makes the right point. I am wondering whether we = should wordsmith this a bit to get the grammar a bit smoother, or if we = should let the RFC editor staff do it. I will try to take a shot at = wordsmithing and we can see how this comes out. > =20 > It seems to me that LISP is =E2=80=9Can tunnel-based data plane and a = distributed control plane=E2=80=9D which requires a number of new = functions such as mapping and OAM. I am wondering about extending this = idea in your text to something like: > =20 > LISP comprises both an tunnel-based data plane > and a distributed control plane for the Internet, and > requires some new functionality such as OAM = enhancements > and EID to RLOC mapping. Being more than simple = encapsulation > technology, there are remaining open questions related to the > deployment of LISP in the Internet. > =20 > Does this sound about right? Looks very good to me. thanks L. > =20 > Thanks, Ross > =20 > From: Luigi Iannone [mailto:ggx@gigix.net]=20 > Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2015 3:55 AM > To: Ross Callon > Cc: LISP mailing list list > Subject: Re: [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-02 > =20 > Hi Ross, > =20 > Comments inline. > =20 > ciao > =20 > L. > =20 > =20 > =20 > On 01 Jun 2015, at 17:35, Ross Callon > wrote: > =20 > >=E2=80=A6 > > There still are many, economical and technical, open questions = related to > > the deployment of such infrastructure. > >=20 > > The purpose of the draft is to document what we know about the = impact on the existing Internet. > > The right thing to do is to delete at once that sentence, because it = does not document any impact. > =20 > I think that this sentence is a good summary of the overall document, = and thus I think that it is valuable to leave it in. As a summary, I = could see it making sense towards the end of the document, although = there doesn=E2=80=99t seem to be anywhere towards the end to put it. > =20 > Thinking about this a bit more: What is essentially being proposed = with LISP is a new addressing and routing paradigm for the core of the = Internet, and the Internet is rapidly becoming pretty much the control = plane for the world. As such, if there are potentially issues then I = think that we have a responsibility to say so. In this case it is pretty = clear reading through this document, or just thinking through the issues = and reading the full set of LISP documents, that there are both economic = and technical =E2=80=9Copen questions related to the deployment of such = infrastructure=E2=80=9D and as such I think that we need to explicitly = say this. > =20 > =20 > =20 > I see your point, what about the following sentence: > =20 > LISP comprises both an tunnel-based data plane=20 > and a distributed control plane for the Internet, hence,=20= > being more than simple encapsulation technology,=20 > open questions related to the deployment of such=20 > infrastructure remains. > =20 > =20 > >=E2=80=A6 > > The overhead related to OAM traffic (for example, for liveness = detection) is not known. > >=20 > > Rather it would go in section 5.2 as a separate item. > =20 > I think that putting this as a separate item in section 5.2 makes = sense. > =20 > =20 > =20 > Agreed > =20 >=20 >=20 > =20 > >=E2=80=A6 > > NEW > > The above assumptions are in line with [RFC7215] and current LISP > > deployments, however, such situation may change in the long term. > > For example, the first bullet above assumes that only edge = networks > > already owning their address space (current PI address owners) = will > > switch to LISP. Speculating whether and how PA owning edge = networks > > might switch to LISP was outside the scope. Nevertheless, [KIF13] = and > > [CDLC] explore different EDI prefix space > > sizes, still showing results that are consistent and equivalent to = the > > above assumptions. > >=20 > > What if instead it is explicated in the first bullet: > >=20 > > EID-to-RLOC mappings follow the same prefix size as the = current > > BGP routing infrastructure (using a PI model); > =20 > I think that the point here is not just that it is following the PI = model, but that it is assuming a scale that only the current PI=E2=80=99s = are going to use LISP (and therefore be in the mapping table). How = about: > =20 > > EID-to-RLOC mappings follow the same prefix size as the = current > > BGP routing infrastructure (current PI addresses only) > =20 > Agreed > =20 >=20 >=20 > =20 > Thanks, Ross > =20 > From: Luigi Iannone [mailto:ggx@gigix.net ]=20 > Sent: Friday, May 29, 2015 8:34 AM > To: Ross Callon > Cc: LISP mailing list list > Subject: re: [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-02 > =20 > Hi Ross, > =20 > thanks for your review. > =20 > I think that your comments can be easily accommodate. > Have a look inline. > =20 > ciao > =20 > L. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > On 27 May 2015, at 23:46, Ross Callon > wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 > The document seems much improved. I still have three issues which = should be corrected before the document is ready for publication. > =20 > =20 > Section 1, last paragraph, second sentence. This currently reads: > =20 > There still are many, economical rather than technical, open = questions related to > the deployment of such infrastructure. > =20 > However, it is clear that there are both economical and technical = issues. As examples of technical issues, later in the document (section = 5.2) talks about the difficulty in troubleshooting, and states =E2=80=9C=E2= =80=A6the major issue that years of LISP experimentation have shown is = the difficulty of troubleshooting. When there is a problem in the = network, it is hard to pin-point the reason as the operator only has a = partial view of the network=E2=80=9D. This is of course one example of a = technical issue (another related one is my next comment below). Thus I = think that it would be correct to change this sentence to state: > =20 > There still are many, economical and technical, open questions = related to > the deployment of such infrastructure. > =20 >=20 > The purpose of the draft is to document what we know about the impact = on the existing Internet. > The right thing to do is to delete at once that sentence, because it = does not document any impact.=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > =20 > This might have been lost in the vigorous discussion of other issues = which occurred during the first WGLC, however, my comments from the = previous WGLC included one point which has not been addressed. This = comment was:=20 > =20 > > Finally, perhaps I missed it but I didn=E2=80=99t see any discussion = of the > > volume of overhead related to OAM traffic used for liveness = detection > > (the need for ITR=E2=80=99s to determine the reachability of = ETR=E2=80=99s). > =20 > I still think that we need discussion of the overhead related to OAM = traffic. If this is not known, it might be appropriate simply to add to = the second paragraph of section 1 something along the lines of: > =20 > The overhead related to OAM traffic (for example, for liveness = detection) is not known. > =20 >=20 > Rather it would go in section 5.2 as a separate item. >=20 >=20 >=20 > =20 > Also, in section 3, first bullet after the first paragraph, the = document currently states: > =20 > o EID-to-RLOC mappings follow the same prefix size as the current > BGP routing infrastructure; > =20 > In email in our earlier discussion Florin Coras stated: > =20 > > The goal our experiments was to understand the > > performance of LISP map-caches if edge > > networks already owning their address space (PI address owners) were = to > > switch to LISP. Speculating if and how PA owning edge networks are = to > > switch to LISP was outside the scope. > =20 > I think that these two points are saying the same thing. However, I am = not sure whether most (or all) readers will understand that the bullet = point in the current document implies the point that Florin made in his = email. We could clarify this in the next paragraph as follows: > =20 > OLD > The above assumptions are inline with [RFC7215] and current LISP > deployments, however, such situation may change in the long term. > Nevertheless, [KIF13] and [CDLC] explore different EDI prefix space > sizes, still showing results that are consitent and equivalent to = the > above assumptions. > =20 > NEW > The above assumptions are in line with [RFC7215] and current LISP > deployments, however, such situation may change in the long term. > For example, the first bullet above assumes that only edge networks > already owning their address space (current PI address owners) will > switch to LISP. Speculating whether and how PA owning edge networks > might switch to LISP was outside the scope. Nevertheless, [KIF13] = and > [CDLC] explore different EDI prefix space > sizes, still showing results that are consistent and equivalent to = the > above assumptions. >=20 > What if instead it is explicated in the first bullet: >=20 > EID-to-RLOC mappings follow the same prefix size as the = current > BGP routing infrastructure (using a PI model); >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > =20 > Thanks, Ross > =20 > =20 > From: lisp [mailto:lisp-bounces@ietf.org = ] On Behalf Of Luigi Iannone > Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2015 3:44 PM > To: LISP mailing list list > Cc: Joel Halpern Direct > Subject: [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-02 > =20 > Hi All, > =20 > the authors of the LISP Impact document = [https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-lisp-impact-02.txt = ] > submitted a new version of the draft and requested the Work Group Last = Call. > =20 > This email starts a WG Last Call, to end May 28th, 2015. > =20 > Please review this updated WG document and let the WG know if you = agree that it is ready for handing to the AD. > If you have objections, please state your reasons why, and explain = what it would take to address your concerns. > =20 > Thanks >=20 > Luigi & Joel > =20 > =20 --Apple-Mail=_C7FEE32E-0E9A-4927-9088-C4229B596C42 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
On 04 Jun 2015, at 03:24, Ross Callon <rcallon@juniper.net>= wrote:

> I see your point, what about the = following sentence:

> 

>          = ;   LISP comprises both an tunnel-based data plane

>          = ;   and a distributed control plane for the Internet, hence,

>          = ;   being more than simple encapsulation technology,

>          = ;   open questions related to the deployment of such

>          = ;   infrastructure remains.

 

I think that this makes the right = point. I am wondering whether we should wordsmith this a bit to get the = grammar a bit smoother, or if we should let the RFC editor staff do it. I will try to take a shot at wordsmithing and we = can see how this comes out.

 

It seems to me that LISP is =E2=80=9Can = tunnel-based data plane and a distributed control plane=E2=80=9D which = requires a number of new functions such as mapping and OAM. I am wondering about extending this idea in your text to something like: =

 

          &nb= sp;     LISP comprises both an tunnel-based data = plane

          &nb= sp;     and a distributed control plane for the = Internet, and

          &nb= sp;     requires some new functionality such as OAM = enhancements

          &nb= sp;    and EID to RLOC mapping. Being more than simple = encapsulation

technology, there are remaining open = questions related to the

deployment of LISP in the Internet.

 

Does this sound about right?


Looks very good to me.

thanks

L.




 

Thanks, Ross

 

From: Luigi Iannone [mailto:ggx@gigix.net]
Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2015 3:55 AM
To: Ross Callon
Cc: LISP mailing list list
Subject: Re: [lisp] WG Last Call = draft-ietf-lisp-impact-02

 

Hi Ross,

 

Comments inline.

 

ciao

 

L.

 

 

 

On 01 Jun 2015, at 17:35, Ross = Callon <rcallon@juniper.net> wrote:

 

>=E2=80=A6

>    There still are = many, economical and technical, open questions related to

>    the deployment = of such infrastructure.

> 

> The purpose of the draft is to = document what we know about the impact on the existing = Internet.

> The right thing to do is to delete = at once that sentence, because it does not document any = impact.

 

I think that this sentence is a good = summary of the overall document, and thus I think that it is valuable to = leave it in. As a summary, I could see it making sense towards the end of the document, although there doesn=E2=80=99t = seem to be anywhere towards the end to put it.

 

Thinking about this a bit more: What is = essentially being proposed with LISP is a new addressing and routing = paradigm for the core of the Internet, and the Internet is rapidly becoming pretty much the control plane for the = world. As such, if there are potentially issues then I think that we = have a responsibility to say so. In this case it is pretty clear reading = through this document, or just thinking through the issues and reading the full set of LISP documents, that there are = both economic and technical =E2=80=9Copen questions related to the = deployment of such infrastructure=E2=80=9D and as such I think that we = need to explicitly say this.

 

 

 

I see your point, what about the = following sentence:

 

        &= nbsp;   LISP comprises both an tunnel-based data = plane 

        &= nbsp;   and a distributed control plane for the = Internet, hence, 

        &= nbsp;   being more than simple encapsulation = technology, 

        &= nbsp;   open questions related to the deployment of = such 

        &= nbsp;   infrastructure remains.

=

 

 

>=E2=80=A6

>    The overhead = related to OAM traffic (for example, for liveness detection) is not = known.

> 

> Rather it would go in section 5.2 = as a separate item.

 

I think that putting this as a separate = item in section 5.2 makes sense.

 

 

 

Agreed

 



 

>=E2=80=A6

> NEW

>   The above assumptions = are in line with [RFC7215] and current LISP

>   deployments, however, = such situation may change in the long term.

>   For example, the first = bullet above assumes that only edge networks

>   already owning their = address space (current PI address owners) will

>   switch to LISP. = Speculating whether and how PA owning edge networks

>   might switch to LISP = was outside the scope. Nevertheless, [KIF13] and

>   [CDLC] explore = different EDI prefix space

>   sizes, still showing = results that are consistent and equivalent to the

>   above = assumptions.

> 

> What if instead it is explicated = in the first bullet:

> 

>          = ;   EID-to-RLOC mappings follow the same prefix size as the = current

>    =          BGP routing = infrastructure (using a PI model);

 

I think that the point here is not just = that it is following the PI model, but that it is assuming a scale that = only the current PI=E2=80=99s are going to use LISP (and therefore be in the mapping table). How about:

 

>          = ;   EID-to-RLOC mappings follow the same prefix size as the = current

>    =          BGP routing = infrastructure (current PI addresses only)

 

Agreed

 



 

Thanks, Ross

 

From: Luigi Iannone [mailto:ggx@gigix.net]
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2015 8:34 AM
To: Ross Callon
Cc: LISP mailing list list
Subject: re: [lisp] WG Last Call = draft-ietf-lisp-impact-02

 

Hi Ross,

 

thanks for your review.

 

I think that your comments can be = easily accommodate.

Have a look inline.

 

ciao

 

L.






On 27 May 2015, at 23:46, Ross = Callon <rcallon@juniper.net> wrote:



The document seems much improved. I = still have three issues which should be corrected before the document is = ready for publication.
 
 
Section 1, last paragraph, second = sentence. This currently reads:
 
    There still are many, = economical rather than technical, open questions related to
    the deployment of such = infrastructure.
 
However, it is clear that there are = both economical and technical issues. As examples of technical issues, = later in the document (section 5.2) talks about the difficulty in = troubleshooting, and states =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6the major issue that years of LISP = experimentation have shown is the difficulty of troubleshooting.  = When there is a problem in the network, it is hard to pin-point the = reason as the operator only has a partial view of the network=E2=80=9D. = This is of course one example of a technical issue (another related one is my next = comment below). Thus I think that it would be correct to change this = sentence to state:
 
    There still are many, = economical and technical, open questions related to
    the deployment of such = infrastructure.

 


The purpose of the draft is to document what we know about the = impact on the existing Internet.
The right thing to do is to delete at once that sentence, because it = does not document any impact. 




 
This might have been lost in the = vigorous discussion of other issues which occurred during the first = WGLC, however, my comments from the previous WGLC included one point = which has not been addressed. This comment was: 
 
> Finally, perhaps I missed it but I = didn=E2=80=99t see any discussion of the
> volume of overhead related to OAM = traffic used for liveness detection
> (the need for ITR=E2=80=99s to = determine the reachability of ETR=E2=80=99s).
 
I still think that we need discussion = of the overhead related to OAM traffic. If this is not known, it might = be appropriate simply to add to the second paragraph of section 1 = something along the lines of:
 
    The overhead related to = OAM traffic (for example, for liveness detection) is not = known.

 


Rather it would go in section 5.2 as a separate item.



          =      
Also, in section 3, first bullet after = the first paragraph, the document currently states:
 
   o  EID-to-RLOC = mappings follow the same prefix size as the current
      BGP routing = infrastructure;
 
In email in our earlier discussion = Florin Coras stated:
 
> The goal our experiments was to = understand the
> performance of LISP map-caches if = edge
> networks already owning their = address space (PI address owners) were to
> switch to LISP. Speculating if and = how PA owning edge networks are to
> switch to LISP was outside the = scope.
 
I think that these two points are = saying the same thing. However, I am not sure whether most (or all) = readers will understand that the bullet point in the current document = implies the point that Florin made in his email. We could clarify this in the = next paragraph as follows:
 
OLD
   The above assumptions are = inline with [RFC7215] and current LISP
   deployments, however, such = situation may change in the long term.
   Nevertheless, [KIF13] and = [CDLC] explore different EDI prefix space
   sizes, still showing = results that are consitent and equivalent to the
   above = assumptions.
 
NEW
   The above assumptions are = in line with [RFC7215] and current LISP
   deployments, however, such = situation may change in the long term.
   For example, the first = bullet above assumes that only edge networks
   already owning their = address space (current PI address owners) will
   switch to LISP. = Speculating whether and how PA owning edge networks
   might switch to LISP was = outside the scope. Nevertheless, [KIF13] and
   [CDLC] explore different = EDI prefix space
   sizes, still showing = results that are consistent and equivalent to the

   above = assumptions.


What if instead it is explicated in the first bullet:

        &= nbsp;   EID-to-RLOC mappings follow the same prefix = size as the current
            BGP = routing infrastructure (using a PI model);









 
Thanks, Ross
 
 
From: lisp [mailto:lisp-bounces@ietf.org] On = Behalf Of Luigi Iannone
Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2015 3:44 PM
To: LISP mailing list list
Cc: Joel Halpern Direct
Subject: [lisp] WG Last Call = draft-ietf-lisp-impact-02
 
Hi All,
 
the authors of the LISP Impact document  [https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-lisp-impact-02.txt<= /a>]
submitted a new version of the draft and requested the Work Group Last = Call.
 
This email starts a WG Last Call, to end May 28th, 2015.
 
Please review this updated WG document and let the WG know if you agree = that it is ready for handing to the AD.
If you have objections, please state your reasons why, and explain what = it would take to address your concerns.
 
Thanks

Luigi & Joel

 

 


= --Apple-Mail=_C7FEE32E-0E9A-4927-9088-C4229B596C42-- From nobody Thu Jun 4 01:00:52 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lisp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lisp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B995F1B2AA6 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2015 01:00:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VdgQi2e2iZfq for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2015 01:00:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-f180.google.com (mail-wi0-f180.google.com [209.85.212.180]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1306A1A8A42 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2015 01:00:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wibdq8 with SMTP id dq8so115936336wib.1 for ; Thu, 04 Jun 2015 01:00:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:content-type:mime-version:subject:from :in-reply-to:date:cc:message-id:references:to; bh=b14zR8CXnL0yMDgICxpmec3rFOQWTO6GeZ9Tw8AyUxU=; b=btpiKvikde113Jc9kCiW3tO4U2pBORr8VOoRkj2lo3B8/ZXXsUkz6QcuAqffSWVEby YMVjlKPMDi7TrcZ654at7omfCQLMiU4SfPl3m+9uFPrSLOsYPRoAKk+rm1RT/lEXdq6Z p/zmPDleKjMYHSTECw/wR7q+Eo1SLHoW7gmB5D/OyLUJ+uViKm2OnU6z0i/xyQ1rUISk WyeTEU49Eo/wWKpCag6DC+6T5Si5g6QuegwsgU3XKpohLNigp3rTZ1b40xnPFoygDVAq pMqRQA+yW3/i3It+7MrjXfZ/vPygJaF+clOJSd5dcFxK/wOgDTsHdQxNgyIemrVE6bpc ZMHQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmKWomoSWky5bsjLIgKB5UwnFG4iZRZ37pIXn0N7h4V8i/zY3uIVfIOFoLt+MLdHkmV2Fpk X-Received: by 10.194.5.74 with SMTP id q10mr68388207wjq.27.1433404845809; Thu, 04 Jun 2015 01:00:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2001:660:330f:a4:f44e:fd93:19fe:c165? ([2001:660:330f:a4:f44e:fd93:19fe:c165]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id ny7sm29996069wic.11.2015.06.04.01.00.44 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 04 Jun 2015 01:00:44 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_D1AF7690-0A8E-4DA9-B583-88C84789DF6B" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2098\)) From: Luigi Iannone In-Reply-To: <82E787F8-1BD1-4F2F-A286-227873019288@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2015 10:00:49 +0200 Message-Id: <1D2F1DE4-A8F4-4998-8BBE-7307AAD1467D@gigix.net> References: <96CCC975-4D04-46F4-ABA9-D5BF6A77C451@gigix.net> <1F6A3E9B-62E7-4B5D-99F3-2DE6AC0FB13F@gigix.net> <199AEC90-B132-4493-BB7D-E3088093F222@gigix.net> <82E787F8-1BD1-4F2F-A286-227873019288@gmail.com> To: Dino Farinacci X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2098) Archived-At: Cc: LISP mailing list list Subject: Re: [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-02 X-BeenThere: lisp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List for the discussion of the Locator/ID Separation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2015 08:00:50 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_D1AF7690-0A8E-4DA9-B583-88C84789DF6B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On 04 Jun 2015, at 07:26, Dino Farinacci wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Jun 3, 2015, at 6:24 PM, Ross Callon > wrote: >=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> Does this sound about right? >>=20 >=20 > I think the text you suggest is fine. But we haven't ever used the = term "OAM" before. I would like all the documentation to be consistent = so would suggest using "RLOC reach ability mechanisms=E2=80=9D.=20 Hi Dino, I understand your point, but may be OAM is a more general term that = covers the RLOC reachability case. yet, if it is fine with Ross I guess we can use =E2=80=9CRLOC = reachability=E2=80=9D. ciao L. >=20 > Dino --Apple-Mail=_D1AF7690-0A8E-4DA9-B583-88C84789DF6B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
On 04 Jun 2015, at 07:26, Dino Farinacci <farinacci@gmail.com>= wrote:



On Jun 3, = 2015, at 6:24 PM, Ross Callon <rcallon@juniper.net> wrote:

 

Does this sound about = right?


I think the = text you suggest is fine. But we haven't ever used the term "OAM" = before. I would like all the documentation to be consistent so would = suggest using "RLOC reach ability = mechanisms=E2=80=9D. 

Hi Dino,

I = understand your point, but may be OAM is a more general term that covers = the RLOC reachability case.

yet, if = it is fine with Ross I guess we can use =E2=80=9CRLOC = reachability=E2=80=9D.

ciao

L.



Dino

= --Apple-Mail=_D1AF7690-0A8E-4DA9-B583-88C84789DF6B-- From nobody Thu Jun 4 08:02:53 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lisp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lisp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D4C21B3591 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2015 08:02:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17RMMOWKfCdV for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2015 08:02:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x22a.google.com (mail-qk0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D66451B3595 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2015 08:02:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by qkoo18 with SMTP id o18so25256629qko.1 for ; Thu, 04 Jun 2015 08:02:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=rbdUmlfYP3WfXxb3kwezEwYoJFBcX+6k7YVHuBxy1+8=; b=cFNJH0lUOUWvu7h3aK+9zZdWp64NRJ+Y+IJB7Dg74sZ8X+A6NHl+QXhciB3Ua+pnSd qqqJiVw3WFyUgmH5ggqgtq1c5dznZ+Y30hbpP9HvriG4X2EqBuuefAGNHWKXtZ49R7uf Brmgp0Z24A3l4nu/hLTEglbVi8ZrSBwoDARFBMUMT1Z8CFHiNtXxpgTTNMaatMRUvJRt y6i0X+Jd7ruZS5JiqSCrliLXTF06rXXwjSPrxZmLUePdKBBc1FT+j0BP1NSix/7RBVNh XA7DJiT09EzZY1KCJwVcfHk74WtjYBH8y2aozn94H+PRs2Ef1FD7ePgsx9tMglisGQwI JVvg== X-Received: by 10.55.52.12 with SMTP id b12mr18919459qka.22.1433430161200; Thu, 04 Jun 2015 08:02:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.195.220.118] ([166.170.36.86]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id v13sm2471176qhd.31.2015.06.04.08.02.40 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 04 Jun 2015 08:02:40 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-C1281D38-023E-4012-A334-3E94BC69139F Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Dino Farinacci X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (12F70) In-Reply-To: <1D2F1DE4-A8F4-4998-8BBE-7307AAD1467D@gigix.net> Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2015 08:02:38 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <54754D2F-C2F6-4CA3-BC61-EE0F8A8CF446@gmail.com> References: <96CCC975-4D04-46F4-ABA9-D5BF6A77C451@gigix.net> <1F6A3E9B-62E7-4B5D-99F3-2DE6AC0FB13F@gigix.net> <199AEC90-B132-4493-BB7D-E3088093F222@gigix.net> <82E787F8-1BD1-4F2F-A286-227873019288@gmail.com> <1D2F1DE4-A8F4-4998-8BBE-7307AAD1467D@gigix.net> To: Luigi Iannone Archived-At: Cc: LISP mailing list list Subject: Re: [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-02 X-BeenThere: lisp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List for the discussion of the Locator/ID Separation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2015 15:02:48 -0000 --Apple-Mail-C1281D38-023E-4012-A334-3E94BC69139F Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Parenthesizing "OAM" would be fine with the text I suggest.=20 Dino=20 > On Jun 4, 2015, at 1:00 AM, Luigi Iannone wrote: >=20 >=20 >> On 04 Jun 2015, at 07:26, Dino Farinacci wrote: >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>> On Jun 3, 2015, at 6:24 PM, Ross Callon wrote: >>>=20 >>> =20 >>>=20 >>> Does this sound about right? >>>=20 >>=20 >> I think the text you suggest is fine. But we haven't ever used the term "= OAM" before. I would like all the documentation to be consistent so would su= ggest using "RLOC reach ability mechanisms=E2=80=9D.=20 >=20 > Hi Dino, >=20 > I understand your point, but may be OAM is a more general term that covers= the RLOC reachability case. >=20 > yet, if it is fine with Ross I guess we can use =E2=80=9CRLOC reachability= =E2=80=9D. >=20 > ciao >=20 > L. >=20 >=20 >>=20 >> Dino >=20 --Apple-Mail-C1281D38-023E-4012-A334-3E94BC69139F Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Parenthesizing "OAM" would b= e fine with the text I suggest. 

Dino 

On Jun 4, 2015, at 1:00 AM, Luigi Iannone <ggx@gigix.net> wrote:


On 04 Jun 2015, at 07:26, Dino Farinacci <farinacci@gmail.com> wrote:



On Jun 3, 2015, at 6:24 PM, Ross Callon <rcallon@juniper.net> wrote:

 

Does this sound about right= ?


I think the text you= suggest is fine. But we haven't ever used the term "OAM" before. I would li= ke all the documentation to be consistent so would suggest using "RLOC reach= ability mechanisms=E2=80=9D. 

Hi Dino,

I understa= nd your point, but may be OAM is a more general term that covers the RLOC re= achability case.

yet, if it is fine with= Ross I guess we can use =E2=80=9CRLOC reachability=E2=80=9D.

ciao

L.
<= br class=3D"">


Dino

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Thu, 04 Jun 2015 08:19:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.195.220.118] ([166.170.36.86]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id f192sm2498429qhc.37.2015.06.04.08.19.51 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 04 Jun 2015 08:19:52 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Dino Farinacci X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (12F70) In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2015 08:19:50 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <96CCC975-4D04-46F4-ABA9-D5BF6A77C451@gigix.net> <1F6A3E9B-62E7-4B5D-99F3-2DE6AC0FB13F@gigix.net> <199AEC90-B132-4493-BB7D-E3088093F222@gigix.net> <82E787F8-1BD1-4F2F-A286-227873019288@gmail.com> <1D2F1DE4-A8F4-4998-8BBE-7307AAD1467D@gigix.net> <54754D2F-C2F6-4CA3-BC61-EE0F8A8CF446@gmail.com> To: Ross Callon Archived-At: Cc: LISP mailing list list Subject: Re: [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-02 X-BeenThere: lisp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List for the discussion of the Locator/ID Separation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2015 15:20:03 -0000 > On Jun 4, 2015, at 8:16 AM, Ross Callon wrote: >=20 > Thus it seems fine to me to replace =E2=80=9COAM=E2=80=9D with =E2=80=9CRL= OC reachability=E2=80=9D in the proposed text. As written it is a noun. I indicated "RLOC reachability mechanisms".=20 Dino= From nobody Thu Jun 4 08:22:38 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lisp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lisp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD9F21A88C4 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2015 08:22:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DVhZYDYCRdS7 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2015 08:22:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from na01-bl2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bl2on0133.outbound.protection.outlook.com [65.55.169.133]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 950D71A890B for ; Thu, 4 Jun 2015 08:22:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from BY1PR0501MB1430.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (25.160.107.152) by BY1PR0501MB1430.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (25.160.107.152) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.1.172.22; Thu, 4 Jun 2015 15:22:34 +0000 Received: from BY1PR0501MB1430.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([25.160.107.152]) by BY1PR0501MB1430.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([25.160.107.152]) with mapi id 15.01.0172.012; Thu, 4 Jun 2015 15:22:34 +0000 From: Ross Callon To: Dino Farinacci Thread-Topic: [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-02 Thread-Index: AQHQmgu7Z9e6Ul6hM0e5dxjOHTDbvp2XwQAwgAKwDQCAAR0/0IAAS7MAgAArDICAAHXbAIAAAkMggAACiwCAAABfEA== Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2015 15:22:34 +0000 Message-ID: References: <96CCC975-4D04-46F4-ABA9-D5BF6A77C451@gigix.net> <1F6A3E9B-62E7-4B5D-99F3-2DE6AC0FB13F@gigix.net> <199AEC90-B132-4493-BB7D-E3088093F222@gigix.net> <82E787F8-1BD1-4F2F-A286-227873019288@gmail.com> <1D2F1DE4-A8F4-4998-8BBE-7307AAD1467D@gigix.net> <54754D2F-C2F6-4CA3-BC61-EE0F8A8CF446@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=rcallon@juniper.net; 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FPR:; SPF:None; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; LANG:en; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: juniper.net does not designate permitted sender hosts) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 04 Jun 2015 15:22:34.4639 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BY1PR0501MB1430 Archived-At: Cc: LISP mailing list list Subject: Re: [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-02 X-BeenThere: lisp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List for the discussion of the Locator/ID Separation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2015 15:22:38 -0000 WXVwLiAiUkxPQyByZWFjaGFiaWxpdHkgbWVjaGFuaXNtcyIgc291bmRzIGxpa2UgdGhlIHJpZ2h0 IHRlcm0gaW4gdGhpcyBjYXNlLiANCg0KVGhhbmtzLCBSb3NzDQoNCi0tLS0tT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVz c2FnZS0tLS0tDQpGcm9tOiBEaW5vIEZhcmluYWNjaSBbbWFpbHRvOmZhcmluYWNjaUBnbWFpbC5j b21dIA0KU2VudDogVGh1cnNkYXksIEp1bmUgMDQsIDIwMTUgMTE6MjAgQU0NClRvOiBSb3NzIENh bGxvbg0KQ2M6IEx1aWdpIElhbm5vbmU7IExJU1AgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0IGxpc3QNClN1YmplY3Q6 IFJlOiBbbGlzcF0gV0cgTGFzdCBDYWxsIGRyYWZ0LWlldGYtbGlzcC1pbXBhY3QtMDINCg0KDQoN Cj4gT24gSnVuIDQsIDIwMTUsIGF0IDg6MTYgQU0sIFJvc3MgQ2FsbG9uIDxyY2FsbG9uQGp1bmlw ZXIubmV0PiB3cm90ZToNCj4gDQo+IFRodXMgaXQgc2VlbXMgZmluZSB0byBtZSB0byByZXBsYWNl IOKAnE9BTeKAnSB3aXRoIOKAnFJMT0MgcmVhY2hhYmlsaXR54oCdIGluIHRoZSBwcm9wb3NlZCB0 ZXh0Lg0KDQpBcyB3cml0dGVuIGl0IGlzIGEgbm91bi4gSSBpbmRpY2F0ZWQgIlJMT0MgcmVhY2hh YmlsaXR5IG1lY2hhbmlzbXMiLiANCg0KRGlubw0K From nobody Thu Jun 4 08:40:41 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lisp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lisp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C2F41A8A4E for ; 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([2001:660:330f:a4:f44e:fd93:19fe:c165]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id y19sm6870611wia.15.2015.06.04.08.40.36 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 04 Jun 2015 08:40:36 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2098\)) From: Luigi Iannone In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2015 17:40:41 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <4434BB0C-FFB3-44D2-8BD2-AF7D78F3DE9C@gigix.net> References: <96CCC975-4D04-46F4-ABA9-D5BF6A77C451@gigix.net> <1F6A3E9B-62E7-4B5D-99F3-2DE6AC0FB13F@gigix.net> <199AEC90-B132-4493-BB7D-E3088093F222@gigix.net> <82E787F8-1BD1-4F2F-A286-227873019288@gmail.com> <1D2F1DE4-A8F4-4998-8BBE-7307AAD1467D@gigix.net> <54754D2F-C2F6-4CA3-BC61-EE0F8A8CF446@gmail.com> To: Ross Callon X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2098) Archived-At: Cc: LISP mailing list list Subject: Re: [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-02 X-BeenThere: lisp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List for the discussion of the Locator/ID Separation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2015 15:40:40 -0000 Excellent. We will use =E2=80=9CRLOC reachability mechanisms=E2=80=9D Thanks. ciao L. > On 04 Jun 2015, at 17:22, Ross Callon wrote: >=20 > Yup. "RLOC reachability mechanisms" sounds like the right term in this = case.=20 >=20 > Thanks, Ross >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Dino Farinacci [mailto:farinacci@gmail.com]=20 > Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2015 11:20 AM > To: Ross Callon > Cc: Luigi Iannone; LISP mailing list list > Subject: Re: [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-02 >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On Jun 4, 2015, at 8:16 AM, Ross Callon wrote: >>=20 >> Thus it seems fine to me to replace =E2=80=9COAM=E2=80=9D with = =E2=80=9CRLOC reachability=E2=80=9D in the proposed text. >=20 > As written it is a noun. I indicated "RLOC reachability mechanisms".=20= >=20 > Dino From nobody Fri Jun 5 12:53:25 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lisp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lisp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABDAD1A8920 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2015 12:53:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WzM7Rssms2J7 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2015 12:53:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wg0-f41.google.com (mail-wg0-f41.google.com [74.125.82.41]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D2CBA1A890A for ; Fri, 5 Jun 2015 12:53:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wgv5 with SMTP id 5so64306900wgv.1 for ; Fri, 05 Jun 2015 12:53:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:content-type:mime-version:subject:from :in-reply-to:date:cc:message-id:references:to; bh=TwIuwEmxlENWNm9pHkKN89k7lAJ8fEX3DSIM9ZGtB60=; b=jTYCqhNPWQtwafzqyrqOluvJojMaO6ywe9tUmWTfL/pwC1Ap+qo4JfGNAztp06cbRT 0/P5It2tV6Phc22wnbUnzCaNMRow+M7f3GEIlHlaV2hyxwsrlZ/xNasNLgc6rGYR/1K4 2YJ63WLSH7o0Nn3K8aWUXfDHC0S//qGbb/pRN02Z3HPdXrQt2N2L0FiSKiSJzOTYAu96 En3Ttj/Gpo2f474wf2HhH/hnBm+YAJyFdM1+SqksMRcADFVGHySAPJ3Fsq47CWaI4NTh xeShJLsYexKqvRe2yV8oZPzTDe2gzw2iBQJ7h0RXiOnLTMVQ3GHInAYe65jJpRb67ba4 Vcbw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlp1+VPnWZFc+AtNFl/R5wuD5T4ZW+fSL2v99UCdOHq+PnApzbQUSbTGSIwvo72iC7nTNFu X-Received: by 10.180.107.38 with SMTP id gz6mr12919166wib.63.1433534001655; Fri, 05 Jun 2015 12:53:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2a01:e35:1381:3430:4b3:ea9:844c:af1a? ([2a01:e35:1381:3430:4b3:ea9:844c:af1a]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id cd9sm3615483wjc.34.2015.06.05.12.53.19 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 05 Jun 2015 12:53:20 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_02424E68-95C6-456B-BC99-777EFEDBE8A9" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2098\)) From: Luigi Iannone In-Reply-To: <0D77C474-57FB-4042-8A8B-B5AF4C135ED4@gigix.net> Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2015 21:53:19 +0200 Message-Id: References: <0D77C474-57FB-4042-8A8B-B5AF4C135ED4@gigix.net> To: LISP mailing list list X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2098) Archived-At: Cc: Joel Halpern Direct Subject: Re: [lisp] WG Last Call draft-ietf-lisp-impact-02 X-BeenThere: lisp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List for the discussion of the Locator/ID Separation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2015 19:53:24 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_02424E68-95C6-456B-BC99-777EFEDBE8A9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi All, the WG LC for draft-ietf-lisp-impact-02 is now closed. This WG LC was started to confirm the consensus expressed during last = meeting. A couple of issues have been raised, for which discussion has converged = to new=20 suggested text that will be included in a new version of the document. The updated document will be then pushed forward for publication through = the usual process. Thanks all for the work done. Luigi & Joel=20 > On 14 May 2015, at 21:43, Luigi Iannone wrote: >=20 > Hi All, >=20 > the authors of the LISP Impact document = [https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-lisp-impact-02.txt = ] > submitted a new version of the draft and requested the Work Group Last = Call. >=20 > This email starts a WG Last Call, to end May 28th, 2015. >=20 > Please review this updated WG document and let the WG know if you = agree that it is ready for handing to the AD. > If you have objections, please state your reasons why, and explain = what it would take to address your concerns. >=20 > Thanks >=20 > Luigi & Joel >=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_02424E68-95C6-456B-BC99-777EFEDBE8A9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Hi All,

the WG LC for draft-ietf-lisp-impact-02 = is now closed.

This WG LC was started to confirm the consensus expressed = during last meeting.

A couple of issues have been raised, for which discussion has = converged to new 
suggested text that will be = included in a new version of the document.

The updated document will be then = pushed forward for publication through the usual process.

Thanks all for the work = done.

Luigi = & Joel 


On = 14 May 2015, at 21:43, Luigi Iannone <ggx@gigix.net> wrote:

Hi All,

the authors of the LISP Impact document  [https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-lisp-impact-02.txt]
submitted a new version of the draft and requested = the Work Group Last Call.

This email = starts a WG Last Call, to end May 28th, 2015.

Please review this = updated WG document and let the WG know if you agree that it is ready = for handing to the AD.
If you have = objections, please state your reasons why, and explain what it would = take to address your concerns.

Thanks

Luigi & Joel



= --Apple-Mail=_02424E68-95C6-456B-BC99-777EFEDBE8A9-- From nobody Sun Jun 7 08:26:59 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lisp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lisp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C4011A9105 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2015 08:26:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qWLOCuyuhsSo for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2015 08:26:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x22b.google.com (mail-qk0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2B3901A9101 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2015 08:26:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by qkhg32 with SMTP id g32so66285950qkh.0 for ; Sun, 07 Jun 2015 08:26:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=G5BC/TU6sGx5M7OXdcZJPIrWXT8amhq3HCGrdKEVUas=; b=KxAux1UoKdVTaMvMSfq7vuyz7EDdEHFXIFtvQ46dcVijU33dhH+LnF7broqFoFa/Yp W0sTvJgqK5AmLfrt++2Tc+KqTCox4Zfk5zRj1wfEK8ID+d5IdVz6t3ihIqbbSPnxANEs MAHYMTlLXC6Gfedyu4ncoBtEoLSXrAdRqYM9wjgRGlUstAHE2gC0Tai9j9bLoBq0de/w 1oeQpTwtTz0bX7khUc0wFIW5C+IF88YC6AKYWREmi4mb1CygLglUFQGbQ86FFGpXOhdu 3mkjJ0IXkpmw8plmfmNWRaLtrnlLSuJaKAbKXOwz/n41N0la4fo+Bc+JSqkwvMJutZAU vsxA== X-Received: by 10.140.35.230 with SMTP id n93mr14407879qgn.7.1433690815435; Sun, 07 Jun 2015 08:26:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:9:4701:1df0:35e5:be8b:3f17:d0ec? ([2601:9:4701:1df0:35e5:be8b:3f17:d0ec]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id 8sm6759576qgy.39.2015.06.07.08.26.53 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 07 Jun 2015 08:26:54 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2098\)) From: Dino Farinacci In-Reply-To: <20150602115319.GA15906@LK-Perkele-VII> Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2015 08:26:51 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20150501225938.17488.33586.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <20150502072254.GA6857@LK-Perkele-VII> <20150602115319.GA15906@LK-Perkele-VII> To: Ilari Liusvaara X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2098) Archived-At: Cc: LISP mailing list list Subject: Re: [lisp] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lisp-crypto-01.txt X-BeenThere: lisp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List for the discussion of the Locator/ID Separation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2015 15:26:58 -0000 Ilari, Brian is on vacation so I=E2=80=99ll take a stab at this. I=E2=80=99= m sure he=E2=80=99ll reply when he returns. >>>> Folks, this draft contains the following changes: >>>>=20 >>>> B.1. Changes to draft-ietf-lisp-crypto-01.txt >>>>=20 >>>> o Posted May 2015. >>>>=20 >>>> o Create cipher suites and encode them in the Security LCAF. >>>>=20 >>>> o Add IV to beginning of packet header and ICV to end of packet. >>>>=20 >>>> o AEAD procedures are now part of encryption process. >>>=20 >>> At least I can follow how the algorithms work. Remaining = issues/notes: >>> - It composes AEAD mode instaed of using ready-made one. The = composed >>> mode is if nothing else slow (SHA-1 is already slower than some >>> ready-made AEAD modes). >>=20 >> These are the algorithms we=E2=80=99re comfortable with for now. We = could >> have specified the combined AEAD mode cipher modes, but they add >> complexity in the form of maintaining a counter for the nonce. >=20 > What kind of memory is the association data in? Something that isn't > volatile or which can't sustain fast updates? The AD is the LISP header. And for each packet there is a 24-bit nonce = (designed for other purposes previously but can be used in this = application as well). It can sustain fast updates. > Any reason why "count and if you lose position, just rekey" wouldn't > work. The IV could be used for this purpose. But right at the moment, there is = no way for the ETR to tell the ITR to rekey. So the rekeying interval is = equivalent to the RLOC-probing interval. > Note that designing AEAD algorithms is quite nontrivial. And making > one with bad performance is easy too. I don=E2=80=99t think we have that here. > - Key derivation looks to be missing hashing in important parameters >>> (like group and exchange keys) into secrets. >>=20 >> Not sure which parameters you mean? The DH shared secret is the >> key for the KDF, I=E2=80=99m not sure why we=E2=80=99d provide any = other keys as input=20 >> to the KDF. >=20 > The problem is that by manipulating things like ciphers, groups or > exchange keys (even one-sided), attackers can make strange things > happen. Meaning if you use the DH public-keys too often, they can be hacked? > Hashing such parameters is especially important if some sort of > connection "figerprint" is provoded for MITM detection. We use the Map-Request nonce for such a fingerprint. And that will be = seen only in two packets. Each new RLOC-probe contains a new nonce (this = is a 64-bit nonce), and if the ITR changes its public-key (1024 or 2048 = bits in length), then a rekey event is occuring. > If unsure what to hash, just dump the LCAFs into session key > derivation as a whole. Well the context for the hash is in the spec. So please comment = specifically on it. Thanks. > At least TLS took nasty attacks from not hashing in the exchange keys > (g^x, g^y or xG, yG). I have found with prelim testing that g^x is taking 8 times longer than = xG. So I would like to hear from you about what ECDH groups are safe. > Also, found another potential issue. There is no nonce field, which > means that public keys can't be safely reused, but must be regenerated > for each use. That is what we are doing. Or do you mean here for each packet = encapsulated, that is considered =E2=80=9Ca use=E2=80=9D? > This would be especially troublesome for computationally-limited and > memory-limited devices. >=20 > If one has no space for auxillary tables, one needs to do DH operation > to generate a key (which doubles key exchange CPU usage). With tables > one can push it to about one third of DH operation, but at cost of > tens (ECDH) or hundreds (DH) of kB of static tables. Hmm. We don=E2=80=99t want to require tables of any kind. > Of course, when reusing DH keys, one shouldn't keep them valid for > too long. IIRC, Daniel J. Bernstein recommended ten seconds a while > back, and considered several hours some products did as too long. We can do that with RLOC-probing, but 802.1AE MacSec is rekeying every = 600ms. But this could be considered a completely different application. = Do you have any thoughts about that? >> We do need less computationally demanding ciphers for deices that do >> crypto in ARM based platforms, which explains the 1024-bit DH (and = yes, >> we realize it is weak). As stated in the Future Work section we will >> be looking at these ECDH functions and should have some results >> before the Prague meeting. If we can replace the 1024-bit DH we will. >=20 > Something came up when investigating the TLS Logjam mess. Experts > guess that NSA has computed "logarithm tables" for a few common > 1024-bit DH groups. Those tables allow breaking DH very quickly. We don=E2=80=99t have any problems using longer keys since the = Map-Request and Map-Reply packets right now for RLOC-probing are = relatively small to the effective MTU size. > The authors of research on TLS Logjam recommended regarding use of DH: > - Use ECDH (beweare of weak 160-bit curves and backdoored curves) > - Named (fixed) groups need to be 2048 bits at least (beware of back- > doored groups) > - If needing to use 1024-bit DH, generate your own group and change > it frequently. > - Don't use <1024 bit DH at all. Does that mean we have to create dynamic cipher suites if we use = 1024-bit keys? > -Ilari Thanks for your valuable comments. Dino From nobody Sun Jun 7 10:09:34 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lisp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lisp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 254241A034C for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2015 10:09:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JZCsqL99wN3q for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2015 10:09:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emh03.mail.saunalahti.fi (emh03.mail.saunalahti.fi [62.142.5.109]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D3FE51A0383 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2015 10:09:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LK-Perkele-VII (a91-155-194-207.elisa-laajakaista.fi [91.155.194.207]) by emh03.mail.saunalahti.fi (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AB1F1887DB; Sun, 7 Jun 2015 20:09:25 +0300 (EEST) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2015 20:09:25 +0300 From: Ilari Liusvaara To: Dino Farinacci Message-ID: <20150607170925.GA8050@LK-Perkele-VII> References: <20150501225938.17488.33586.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <20150502072254.GA6857@LK-Perkele-VII> <20150602115319.GA15906@LK-Perkele-VII> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) Sender: Ilari Liusvaara Archived-At: Cc: LISP mailing list list Subject: Re: [lisp] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lisp-crypto-01.txt X-BeenThere: lisp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List for the discussion of the Locator/ID Separation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2015 17:09:33 -0000 On Sun, Jun 07, 2015 at 08:26:51AM -0700, Dino Farinacci wrote: > Ilari, Brian is on vacation so I’ll take a stab at this. I’m sure he’ll reply when he returns. > > >>>> Folks, this draft contains the following changes: > >>>> > >>>> B.1. Changes to draft-ietf-lisp-crypto-01.txt > >>>> > >>>> o Posted May 2015. > >>>> > >>>> o Create cipher suites and encode them in the Security LCAF. > >>>> > >>>> o Add IV to beginning of packet header and ICV to end of packet. > >>>> > >>>> o AEAD procedures are now part of encryption process. > >>> > >>> At least I can follow how the algorithms work. Remaining issues/notes: > >>> - It composes AEAD mode instaed of using ready-made one. The composed > >>> mode is if nothing else slow (SHA-1 is already slower than some > >>> ready-made AEAD modes). > >> > >> These are the algorithms we’re comfortable with for now. We could > >> have specified the combined AEAD mode cipher modes, but they add > >> complexity in the form of maintaining a counter for the nonce. > > > > What kind of memory is the association data in? Something that isn't > > volatile or which can't sustain fast updates? > > The AD is the LISP header. And for each packet there is a 24-bit nonce (designed for other purposes previously but can be used in this application as well). It can sustain fast updates. 24-bit space would wrap around quite fast. But maybe that could be implicitly extended. > > Any reason why "count and if you lose position, just rekey" wouldn't > > work. > > The IV could be used for this purpose. But right at the moment, there is no way for the ETR to tell the ITR to rekey. So the rekeying interval is equivalent to the RLOC-probing interval. Well, most AEAD algorithms have too short nonces to randomly generate (it is usually 96 bits, which is just too short for random generation). > > Note that designing AEAD algorithms is quite nontrivial. And making > > one with bad performance is easy too. > > I don’t think we have that here. The fastest secure hash currently known is slower than Chacha20-Poly1305 (and if one has hardware AES-GCM, that is faster still). > > - Key derivation looks to be missing hashing in important parameters > >>> (like group and exchange keys) into secrets. > >> > >> Not sure which parameters you mean? The DH shared secret is the > >> key for the KDF, I’m not sure why we’d provide any other keys as input > >> to the KDF. > > > > The problem is that by manipulating things like ciphers, groups or > > exchange keys (even one-sided), attackers can make strange things > > happen. > > Meaning if you use the DH public-keys too often, they can be hacked? Meaning that if DH public keys are copied and pasted into unexpected places, strange things can happen. Best to ensure that key computations just fail to produce matching keys if this happens. I don't know much about this, considering how obscure the attacks are here. > > Hashing such parameters is especially important if some sort of > > connection "figerprint" is provoded for MITM detection. > > We use the Map-Request nonce for such a fingerprint. And that will be seen only in two packets. Each new RLOC-probe contains a new nonce (this is a 64-bit nonce), and if the ITR changes its public-key (1024 or 2048 bits in length), then a rekey event is occuring. Not good. For secure fingerprint, one needs to hash at least the crypto parameters (e.g. groups and ciphers) and exchange keys (the public keys). Otherwise attacker replacing those parameters and get identical fingerprints on both sides, despite MITM position. > > If unsure what to hash, just dump the LCAFs into session key > > derivation as a whole. > > Well the context for the hash is in the spec. So please comment specifically on it. Thanks. > > > At least TLS took nasty attacks from not hashing in the exchange keys > > (g^x, g^y or xG, yG). > > I have found with prelim testing that g^x is taking 8 times longer than xG. So I would like to hear from you about what ECDH groups are safe. CFRG recommended ECDH groups are Curve25519 and Curve448 (which is pretty straightforward extension of Curve25519 to larger prime). https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-irtf-cfrg-curves/?include_text=1 > > Also, found another potential issue. There is no nonce field, which > > means that public keys can't be safely reused, but must be regenerated > > for each use. > > That is what we are doing. Or do you mean here for each packet encapsulated, that is considered “a use”? Each key exchange is "use". > > This would be especially troublesome for computationally-limited and > > memory-limited devices. > > > > If one has no space for auxillary tables, one needs to do DH operation > > to generate a key (which doubles key exchange CPU usage). With tables > > one can push it to about one third of DH operation, but at cost of > > tens (ECDH) or hundreds (DH) of kB of static tables. > > Hmm. We don’t want to require tables of any kind. One does not need the tables, it just speeds up calculating public key. Which one needs to do for each key exchange due to lack of nonce. With nonces and reusing public keys, one could e.g. recalculate the public key every 10 seconds. > > Of course, when reusing DH keys, one shouldn't keep them valid for > > too long. IIRC, Daniel J. Bernstein recommended ten seconds a while > > back, and considered several hours some products did as too long. > > We can do that with RLOC-probing, but 802.1AE MacSec is rekeying every 600ms. But this could be considered a completely different application. Do you have any thoughts about that? This was about how long to keep DH keys, not how long to keep the resulting session key. > >> We do need less computationally demanding ciphers for deices that do > >> crypto in ARM based platforms, which explains the 1024-bit DH (and yes, > >> we realize it is weak). As stated in the Future Work section we will > >> be looking at these ECDH functions and should have some results > >> before the Prague meeting. If we can replace the 1024-bit DH we will. > > > > Something came up when investigating the TLS Logjam mess. Experts > > guess that NSA has computed "logarithm tables" for a few common > > 1024-bit DH groups. Those tables allow breaking DH very quickly. > > We don’t have any problems using longer keys since the Map-Request and Map-Reply packets right now for RLOC-probing are relatively small to the effective MTU size. I agree with the recommendation that fixed (discrete) DH groups should be 2048 bits at least. > > The authors of research on TLS Logjam recommended regarding use of DH: > > - Use ECDH (beweare of weak 160-bit curves and backdoored curves) > > - Named (fixed) groups need to be 2048 bits at least (beware of back- > > doored groups) > > - If needing to use 1024-bit DH, generate your own group and change > > it frequently. > > - Don't use <1024 bit DH at all. > > Does that mean we have to create dynamic cipher suites if we use 1024-bit keys? Yeah, and that creates all sorts of problems. -Ilari From nobody Sun Jun 7 13:02:08 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lisp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lisp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFA6B1ACD5F for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2015 13:02:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9R3wAQ_oHr0T for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2015 13:02:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qc0-x236.google.com (mail-qc0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c01::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 160371ACD5E for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2015 13:02:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by qcxw10 with SMTP id w10so44273846qcx.3 for ; Sun, 07 Jun 2015 13:02:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=jv4yH7c7xBmZ/wA0+yd9hf46hbYFjrDNaDwonujMSBA=; b=JPoGYicIQ3CgllEx6SxLLFfERlKqvcDYlOiA2j+5vcm/Ka+hLBD19dq/9alLMI5Q7y pRfWihqkZAU3qdKvUOPjicjEVUQr6P+mCDVUltB2WvyWhBdy1i+1IpE7WnMF0TF1ssiJ 8gFT5Qx9lCGiZOU6GTM4MxABpIF+yG7IdPrj0c0hOSMZSmicUKURfJ2ZwPQ/FKH/jV9s 453j3Kv9WbuH+eo563bFumDNzua9rdIHNiMk1++rT6SUETQVj5wl0Q71ME/866jBiXhO AKJt+oodLgVsMHczq53GPXVgxSovA0cBI2mL3J80hQ0/Sj0G5154/N0wPNStU9nmAVPd 5JdA== X-Received: by 10.140.147.134 with SMTP id 128mr16413968qht.97.1433707324291; Sun, 07 Jun 2015 13:02:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.140.233.21] ([166.177.251.164]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id r88sm250632qkh.12.2015.06.07.13.02.03 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 07 Jun 2015 13:02:03 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Dino Farinacci X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (12F70) In-Reply-To: <20150607170925.GA8050@LK-Perkele-VII> Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2015 13:02:01 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20150501225938.17488.33586.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <20150502072254.GA6857@LK-Perkele-VII> <20150602115319.GA15906@LK-Perkele-VII> <20150607170925.GA8050@LK-Perkele-VII> To: Ilari Liusvaara Archived-At: Cc: LISP mailing list list Subject: Re: [lisp] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lisp-crypto-01.txt X-BeenThere: lisp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List for the discussion of the Locator/ID Separation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2015 20:02:07 -0000 > On Jun 7, 2015, at 10:09 AM, Ilari Liusvaara = wrote: >=20 >> On Sun, Jun 07, 2015 at 08:26:51AM -0700, Dino Farinacci wrote: >> Ilari, Brian is on vacation so I=E2=80=99ll take a stab at this. I=E2=80=99= m sure he=E2=80=99ll reply when he returns. >>=20 >>>>>> Folks, this draft contains the following changes: >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> B.1. Changes to draft-ietf-lisp-crypto-01.txt >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> o Posted May 2015. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> o Create cipher suites and encode them in the Security LCAF. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> o Add IV to beginning of packet header and ICV to end of packet. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> o AEAD procedures are now part of encryption process. >>>>>=20 >>>>> At least I can follow how the algorithms work. Remaining issues/notes:= >>>>> - It composes AEAD mode instaed of using ready-made one. The composed >>>>> mode is if nothing else slow (SHA-1 is already slower than some >>>>> ready-made AEAD modes). >>>>=20 >>>> These are the algorithms we=E2=80=99re comfortable with for now. We cou= ld >>>> have specified the combined AEAD mode cipher modes, but they add >>>> complexity in the form of maintaining a counter for the nonce. >>>=20 >>> What kind of memory is the association data in? Something that isn't >>> volatile or which can't sustain fast updates? >>=20 >> The AD is the LISP header. And for each packet there is a 24-bit nonce (d= esigned for other purposes previously but can be used in this application as= well). It can sustain fast updates. >=20 > 24-bit space would wrap around quite fast. But maybe that could be > implicitly extended. We are not using it as a counter. It is a random number selected for each pa= cket. But we have an IV in the payload that can (recommended in spec) be use= d as a counter. It is 16 bytes in length.=20 >=20 >>> Any reason why "count and if you lose position, just rekey" wouldn't >>> work. >>=20 >> The IV could be used for this purpose. But right at the moment, there is n= o way for the ETR to tell the ITR to rekey. So the rekeying interval is equi= valent to the RLOC-probing interval. >=20 > Well, most AEAD algorithms have too short nonces to randomly generate > (it is usually 96 bits, which is just too short for random generation). We use the control-plane LISP nonce which is 64-bits.=20 >=20 >>> Note that designing AEAD algorithms is quite nontrivial. And making >>> one with bad performance is easy too. >>=20 >> I don=E2=80=99t think we have that here. >=20 > The fastest secure hash currently known is slower than Chacha20-Poly1305 > (and if one has hardware AES-GCM, that is faster still). Do you recommend poly1305 for a hash? >=20 >>> - Key derivation looks to be missing hashing in important parameters >>>>> (like group and exchange keys) into secrets. >>>>=20 >>>> Not sure which parameters you mean? The DH shared secret is the >>>> key for the KDF, I=E2=80=99m not sure why we=E2=80=99d provide any othe= r keys as input=20 >>>> to the KDF. >>>=20 >>> The problem is that by manipulating things like ciphers, groups or >>> exchange keys (even one-sided), attackers can make strange things >>> happen. >>=20 >> Meaning if you use the DH public-keys too often, they can be hacked? >=20 > Meaning that if DH public keys are copied and pasted into unexpected > places, strange things can happen. >=20 > Best to ensure that key computations just fail to produce matching > keys if this happens. >=20 > I don't know much about this, considering how obscure the attacks are > here. Okay - let's crawl before we walk and see how this turns out. I have finishe= d an implementation of the -01 spec and will present in Prague. I hope to tr= y other cipher suites that are not in -01 and report on it.=20 >=20 >>> Hashing such parameters is especially important if some sort of >>> connection "figerprint" is provoded for MITM detection. >>=20 >> We use the Map-Request nonce for such a fingerprint. And that will be see= n only in two packets. Each new RLOC-probe contains a new nonce (this is a 6= 4-bit nonce), and if the ITR changes its public-key (1024 or 2048 bits in le= ngth), then a rekey event is occuring. >=20 > Not good. For secure fingerprint, one needs to hash at least the > crypto parameters (e.g. groups and ciphers) and exchange keys > (the public keys). We were told buy many to not transfer such information but to do a registry t= hat defined cipher suite values.=20 > Otherwise attacker replacing those parameters and get identical > fingerprints on both sides, despite MITM position. Don't forget that the attacker has to also compromise the map-server. Becaus= e the Map-Replies are signed with a trust relationship between the real ETR a= nd the map-server it registers EID-prefixes to.=20 >=20 >>> If unsure what to hash, just dump the LCAFs into session key >>> derivation as a whole. >>=20 >> Well the context for the hash is in the spec. So please comment specifica= lly on it. Thanks. >>=20 >>> At least TLS took nasty attacks from not hashing in the exchange keys >>> (g^x, g^y or xG, yG). >>=20 >> I have found with prelim testing that g^x is taking 8 times longer than x= G. So I would like to hear from you about what ECDH groups are safe. >=20 > CFRG recommended ECDH groups are Curve25519 and Curve448 (which is pretty > extension of Curve25519 to larger prime). >=20 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-irtf-cfrg-curves/?include_text=3D1 Will check it out. Thanks. >=20 >>> Also, found another potential issue. There is no nonce field, which >>> means that public keys can't be safely reused, but must be regenerated >>> for each use. >>=20 >> That is what we are doing. Or do you mean here for each packet encapsulat= ed, that is considered =E2=80=9Ca use=E2=80=9D? >=20 > Each key exchange is "use". Okay then I think we are good.=20 >=20 >>> This would be especially troublesome for computationally-limited and >>> memory-limited devices. >>>=20 >>> If one has no space for auxillary tables, one needs to do DH operation >>> to generate a key (which doubles key exchange CPU usage). With tables >>> one can push it to about one third of DH operation, but at cost of >>> tens (ECDH) or hundreds (DH) of kB of static tables. >>=20 >> Hmm. We don=E2=80=99t want to require tables of any kind. >=20 > One does not need the tables, it just speeds up calculating public > key. Which one needs to do for each key exchange due to lack of nonce. We can leave this as an implementation option. Meaning we shouldn't spec "ho= w its done".=20 > With nonces and reusing public keys, one could e.g. recalculate the > public key every 10 seconds. >=20 >>> Of course, when reusing DH keys, one shouldn't keep them valid for >>> too long. IIRC, Daniel J. Bernstein recommended ten seconds a while >>> back, and considered several hours some products did as too long. >>=20 >> We can do that with RLOC-probing, but 802.1AE MacSec is rekeying every 60= 0ms. But this could be considered a completely different application. Do you= have any thoughts about that? >=20 > This was about how long to keep DH keys, not how long to keep the > resulting session key. Got it.=20 >=20 >>>> We do need less computationally demanding ciphers for deices that do >>>> crypto in ARM based platforms, which explains the 1024-bit DH (and yes,= >>>> we realize it is weak). As stated in the Future Work section we will >>>> be looking at these ECDH functions and should have some results >>>> before the Prague meeting. If we can replace the 1024-bit DH we will. >>>=20 >>> Something came up when investigating the TLS Logjam mess. Experts >>> guess that NSA has computed "logarithm tables" for a few common >>> 1024-bit DH groups. Those tables allow breaking DH very quickly. >>=20 >> We don=E2=80=99t have any problems using longer keys since the Map-Reques= t and Map-Reply packets right now for RLOC-probing are relatively small to t= he effective MTU size. >=20 > I agree with the recommendation that fixed (discrete) DH groups should > be 2048 bits at least. Ack.=20 >=20 >>> The authors of research on TLS Logjam recommended regarding use of DH: >>> - Use ECDH (beweare of weak 160-bit curves and backdoored curves) >>> - Named (fixed) groups need to be 2048 bits at least (beware of back- >>> doored groups) >>> - If needing to use 1024-bit DH, generate your own group and change >>> it frequently. >>> - Don't use <1024 bit DH at all. >>=20 >> Does that mean we have to create dynamic cipher suites if we use 1024-bit= keys? >=20 > Yeah, and that creates all sorts of problems. >=20 >=20 > -Ilari Thanks again and let's see Brian's comments.=20 Dino= From nobody Wed Jun 10 07:29:18 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lisp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lisp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAA341B2B10; Wed, 10 Jun 2015 07:29:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5VCPVlAlVyKt; Wed, 10 Jun 2015 07:29:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DB9B1B2B24; Wed, 10 Jun 2015 07:28:53 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.0.3.p2 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20150610142853.3190.53543.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2015 07:28:53 -0700 Archived-At: Cc: lisp@ietf.org Subject: [lisp] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lisp-impact-03.txt X-BeenThere: lisp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: List for the discussion of the Locator/ID Separation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2015 14:29:12 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Locator/ID Separation Protocol Working Group of the IETF. Title : LISP Impact Authors : Damien Saucez Luigi Iannone Albert Cabellos Florin Coras Filename : draft-ietf-lisp-impact-03.txt Pages : 16 Date : 2015-06-10 Abstract: The Locator/Identifier Separation Protocol (LISP) aims at improving the Internet scalability properties leveraging on three simple principles: address role separation, encapsulation, and mapping. In this document, based on implementation work, deployment experiences, and theoretical studies, we discuss the impact that the deployment of LISP can have on both the Internet in general and the end-user in particular. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lisp-impact/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lisp-impact-03 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-lisp-impact-03 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Fri Jun 12 09:34:11 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lisp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lisp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C9F41A1B2C; Fri, 12 Jun 2015 09:34:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id J2UVA_B9VoA4; Fri, 12 Jun 2015 09:34:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB1941A9150; Fri, 12 Jun 2015 09:34:07 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.0.3.p2 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20150612163407.25625.32689.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2015 09:34:07 -0700 Archived-At: Cc: lisp@ietf.org Subject: [lisp] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lisp-lcaf-09.txt X-BeenThere: lisp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: List for the discussion of the Locator/ID Separation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2015 16:34:10 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Locator/ID Separation Protocol Working Group of the IETF. Title : LISP Canonical Address Format (LCAF) Authors : Dino Farinacci Dave Meyer Job Snijders Filename : draft-ietf-lisp-lcaf-09.txt Pages : 37 Date : 2015-06-12 Abstract: This draft defines a canonical address format encoding used in LISP control messages and in the encoding of lookup keys for the LISP Mapping Database System. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lisp-lcaf/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lisp-lcaf-09 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-lisp-lcaf-09 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Fri Jun 12 09:34:20 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lisp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lisp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E5D61A9232 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2015 09:34:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VdUQPi-1gEk7 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2015 09:34:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DA1CC1A916D for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2015 09:34:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A212F1C0A89 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2015 09:34:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from Joels-MacBook-Pro.local (173-163-203-241-Richmond.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [173.163.203.241]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3E1FC1C029A for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2015 09:34:09 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <557B09D9.8010705@joelhalpern.com> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2015 12:33:29 -0400 From: "Joel M. Halpern" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "lisp@ietf.org" References: In-Reply-To: X-Forwarded-Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: [lisp] Fwd: FW: IESG Statement on Internet Draft Authorship X-BeenThere: lisp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List for the discussion of the Locator/ID Separation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2015 16:34:13 -0000 FYI. I am not aware of any instance of this problem in our working group, but you should know the policy anyway. Yours, Joel -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: FW: IESG Statement on Internet Draft Authorship Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2015 14:35:53 +0000 From: BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A To: rtg-chairs@ietf.org Not everyone pays attention to the ietf-list, you may want to distribute on your wg lists- -----Original Message----- From: IETF-Announce [mailto:ietf-announce-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of The IESG Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2015 2:32 PM To: IETF Announcement List Subject: IESG Statement on Internet Draft Authorship The IESG has received some reports of IETF participants having been listed as document authors on drafts without their consent ("surprised authorship"). In some cases, the surprised authors had never seen the draft that surprised them. It appears that some draft authors think that including other participants as authors is a way to show support for the concepts in the document and gain acceptance for those concepts. This may be thought of as especially useful if the additional authors are established IETF participants. Adding names of IETF participants who did not actually work on a proposal might seem to be a low-risk way of demonstrating "support", but this is very clearly not an acceptable practice: no one should ever be added to the list of authors on a draft unless that person has consented to it and has contributed significantly to the development of the draft. The practice of adding surprised authors is - not in line with the IETF culture, where it's the technical issues that matter, not who the authors or supporters are; - unethical, as it is wrong to claim support from someone who has not consented to it; - misleading in terms of support; and - problematic in terms of IPR disclosures (BCPs 78 and 79). To emphasize this last point, the person submitting an Internet-Draft is asserting that "This Internet-Draft is submitted in full conformance with the provisions of BCP 78 and BCP 79". A submitter who has not discussed this with all the listed authors cannot make that claim, and this can cause procedural and legal problems later. All authors need to be aware of the ​RFC Editor's statement on authorship [1], especially as it relates to responsibility for the document's contents. The IESG strongly recommends that all drafts have explicit permission from all authors to have their names listed before the draft is submitted. If you feel that you are impacted by the above issues, please talk to your Area Director or contact the IESG by ​sending email to . As the administrator of the I-D repository (regardless of the source or intended stream for the draft), the IESG will handle each case of disputed authorship on a case-by-base basis. All reports will be investigated, and substantiated claims will be met with corrective actions. The default corrective action will be the replacement of the offending draft with a "disputed authorship" tombstone. Such a tombstone would: - Be published as a successor to the offending draft, - Have the offended IETF participant listed as the only author, - Will state "The author listed on this tombstone Internet-Draft has stated that he/she should not have been listed as an author on the previous version. The IETF considers being added as an author without one's permission as unethical. The default behaviour of the IESG in such cases is to approve replacement of the offending draft with this tombstone. Please direct any queries to the author listed here." [1] http://www.rfc-editor.org/pipermail/rfc-interest/2015-May/008869.html From nobody Fri Jun 12 09:43:19 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lisp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lisp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 480451A1A0B for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2015 09:43:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SYxHMQk1GEje for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2015 09:43:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qc0-x230.google.com (mail-qc0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c01::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 06CF51A0406 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2015 09:43:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by qcnj1 with SMTP id j1so12192851qcn.0 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2015 09:43:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=RuU0kwHaNJqesVJ6IDzOWwAmtfiSs5T+bwse1VxLAhA=; b=vvpceB1vo9Y/WyMHyXB5vI7T2NEQD8fdDHfS0DmpS5d0uqOPh6x4hnj/74RoBnnRmJ GqVVpziUUD7aWQTbnM21/ELc9uk9yois7R+B738NLPY93imCHxBe+0RXR0wvGLaZ0aVN lVnt5r+gxqm/98sZEEatKUhRa5clEuiScX0sDwj7tjrUigdpCByGnirSBfGVFOtKaatP fnkPT1//KlYuLGiH6Hyh6bSuP1WBifLLP9gMbrbMGEPef7Wou24DmXZl0FI3j1gNX0Gy bnqLMDM0Manir+DcwYMnxdlLQgQfMVIj1+JFIFO7e45OKc3B2t1F1INDfgcJYNr4WYm3 3L1g== X-Received: by 10.55.43.38 with SMTP id r38mr3614083qkh.80.1434127395308; Fri, 12 Jun 2015 09:43:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.20.10.2] ([166.170.37.151]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id a102sm1878025qka.0.2015.06.12.09.43.14 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 12 Jun 2015 09:43:14 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2098\)) From: Dino Farinacci In-Reply-To: <557B09D9.8010705@joelhalpern.com> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2015 09:43:13 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <7AD0D575-86F8-4B89-A0D4-9A69F31CF9E7@gmail.com> References: <557B09D9.8010705@joelhalpern.com> To: "Joel M. Halpern" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2098) Archived-At: Cc: "lisp@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [lisp] Fwd: FW: IESG Statement on Internet Draft Authorship X-BeenThere: lisp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List for the discussion of the Locator/ID Separation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2015 16:43:18 -0000 I=E2=80=99ve also seen this problem when non-consenting names appear in = the Acknowledgement section. Dino > On Jun 12, 2015, at 9:33 AM, Joel M. Halpern = wrote: >=20 > FYI. I am not aware of any instance of this problem in our working = group, but you should know the policy anyway. > Yours, > Joel >=20 >=20 > -------- Forwarded Message -------- > Subject: FW: IESG Statement on Internet Draft Authorship > Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2015 14:35:53 +0000 > From: BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A > To: rtg-chairs@ietf.org >=20 > Not everyone pays attention to the ietf-list, you may want to = distribute on your wg lists- >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: IETF-Announce [mailto:ietf-announce-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf = Of The IESG > Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2015 2:32 PM > To: IETF Announcement List > Subject: IESG Statement on Internet Draft Authorship >=20 > The IESG has received some reports of IETF participants having been > listed as document authors on drafts without their consent ("surprised > authorship"). In some cases, the surprised authors had never seen the > draft that surprised them. It appears that some draft authors think = that > including other participants as authors is a way to show support for = the > concepts in the document and gain acceptance for those concepts. This > may be thought of as especially useful if the additional authors are > established IETF participants. >=20 > Adding names of IETF participants who did not actually work on a > proposal might seem to be a low-risk way of demonstrating "support", = but > this is very clearly not an acceptable practice: no one should ever be > added to the list of authors on a draft unless that person has = consented > to it and has contributed significantly to the development of the = draft. >=20 > The practice of adding surprised authors is >=20 > - not in line with the IETF culture, where it's the technical issues > that matter, not who the authors or supporters are; > - unethical, as it is wrong to claim support from someone who has not > consented to it; > - misleading in terms of support; and > - problematic in terms of IPR disclosures (BCPs 78 and 79). >=20 > To emphasize this last point, the person submitting an Internet-Draft = is > asserting that "This Internet-Draft is submitted in full conformance > with the provisions of BCP 78 and BCP 79". A submitter who has not > discussed this with all the listed authors cannot make that claim, and > this can cause procedural and legal problems later. >=20 > All authors need to be aware of the =E2=80=8BRFC Editor's statement on > authorship [1], especially as it relates to responsibility for the > document's contents. The IESG strongly recommends that all drafts have > explicit permission from all authors to have their names listed before > the draft is submitted. >=20 > If you feel that you are impacted by the above issues, please talk to > your Area Director or contact the IESG by =E2=80=8Bsending email to > . As the administrator of the I-D repository = (regardless > of the source or intended stream for the draft), the IESG will handle > each case of disputed authorship on a case-by-base basis. All reports > will be investigated, and substantiated claims will be met with > corrective actions. >=20 > The default corrective action will be the replacement of the offending > draft with a "disputed authorship" tombstone. Such a tombstone would: >=20 > - Be published as a successor to the offending draft, > - Have the offended IETF participant listed as the only author, > - Will state "The author listed on this tombstone Internet-Draft has > stated that he/she should not have been listed as an author on the > previous version. The IETF considers being added as an author > without one's permission as unethical. The default behaviour of the > IESG in such cases is to approve replacement of the offending draft > with this tombstone. Please direct any queries to the author listed > here." >=20 > [1] = http://www.rfc-editor.org/pipermail/rfc-interest/2015-May/008869.html >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > lisp mailing list > lisp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lisp From nobody Fri Jun 12 09:55:56 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lisp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lisp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7829E1AC3FD; Fri, 12 Jun 2015 09:55:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tRVCltCj8Idm; Fri, 12 Jun 2015 09:55:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38EBD1A8A49; Fri, 12 Jun 2015 09:55:53 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.0.3.p2 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20150612165553.9162.12404.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2015 09:55:53 -0700 Archived-At: Cc: lisp@ietf.org Subject: [lisp] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lisp-lcaf-10.txt X-BeenThere: lisp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: List for the discussion of the Locator/ID Separation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2015 16:55:54 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Locator/ID Separation Protocol Working Group of the IETF. Title : LISP Canonical Address Format (LCAF) Authors : Dino Farinacci Dave Meyer Job Snijders Filename : draft-ietf-lisp-lcaf-10.txt Pages : 37 Date : 2015-06-12 Abstract: This draft defines a canonical address format encoding used in LISP control messages and in the encoding of lookup keys for the LISP Mapping Database System. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lisp-lcaf/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lisp-lcaf-10 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-lisp-lcaf-10 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Fri Jun 12 09:59:26 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lisp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lisp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 392271ACD0D for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2015 09:59:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id V7-5YesZzGy3 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2015 09:59:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qc0-x229.google.com (mail-qc0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c01::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B07B51AC3FD for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2015 09:59:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by qcbfb9 with SMTP id fb9so3395552qcb.1 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2015 09:59:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:subject:date:references :to:message-id:mime-version; bh=Xu7DmJ0Y8A34tnOmffUttlSo3aF2Rjrptq1uImPsaZY=; b=TeWETe4aEgk5Vu+tQHuecbYkcrXdYV/5kRyi6LKpdW2DIr/1PcEhQRq+emTiylqXDB kX88yNrLJFl4ipAv8EWd9V2urDffj9hUfGxFdKmK9GrnJDBQC3Di1HXSZ0SlsIeaEImL guMugmThH7E13NxfLlQf8tOhYVLWTI6hrWX2tvUTty4OC4Z2FZvV6sfV3lxJIqJ4jLWp 5oDIn1uadKyBv3k01sPge59/gJDmc/qkhw0Co71GtmnLjHlCfmFVWNX71FdCr/LCpFuC 2ZkxREpVwbF7IiIuhDJ4afjFH7nXhIqJ59Gdenjq1a832FnLXKeddmD4ARoD+HYiiZg8 5hRg== X-Received: by 10.140.237.67 with SMTP id i64mr19968418qhc.86.1434128363071; Fri, 12 Jun 2015 09:59:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.20.10.2] ([166.170.37.151]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id 62sm1901316qky.29.2015.06.12.09.59.21 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 12 Jun 2015 09:59:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Dino Farinacci Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2015 09:59:20 -0700 References: <20150612165553.9162.12404.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> To: LISP mailing list list Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2098\)) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2098) Archived-At: Subject: [lisp] Fwd: I-D Action: draft-ietf-lisp-lcaf-10.txt X-BeenThere: lisp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List for the discussion of the Locator/ID Separation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2015 16:59:25 -0000 This rev is solely to update co-author Job=E2=80=99s contact = information. Dino > Begin forwarded message: >=20 > From: internet-drafts@ietf.org > Subject: [lisp] I-D Action: draft-ietf-lisp-lcaf-10.txt > Date: June 12, 2015 at 9:55:53 AM PDT > To: > Cc: lisp@ietf.org >=20 >=20 > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts = directories. > This draft is a work item of the Locator/ID Separation Protocol = Working Group of the IETF. >=20 > Title : LISP Canonical Address Format (LCAF) > Authors : Dino Farinacci > Dave Meyer > Job Snijders > Filename : draft-ietf-lisp-lcaf-10.txt > Pages : 37 > Date : 2015-06-12 >=20 > Abstract: > This draft defines a canonical address format encoding used in LISP > control messages and in the encoding of lookup keys for the LISP > Mapping Database System. >=20 >=20 > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-lisp-lcaf/ >=20 > There's also a htmlized version available at: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-lisp-lcaf-10 >=20 > A diff from the previous version is available at: > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-lisp-lcaf-10 >=20 >=20 > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of = submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >=20 > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >=20 > _______________________________________________ > lisp mailing list > lisp@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lisp From nobody Fri Jun 12 10:52:39 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lisp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lisp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C87891ACE53 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2015 10:52:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id E_GEijjb9XL7 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2015 10:52:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 030081ACE48 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2015 10:52:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB6EF1C00C6; Fri, 12 Jun 2015 10:52:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from Joels-MacBook-Pro.local (173-163-203-241-Richmond.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [173.163.203.241]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 361D41C01A4; Fri, 12 Jun 2015 10:52:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <557B1C3A.4020206@joelhalpern.com> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2015 13:51:54 -0400 From: "Joel M. Halpern" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dino Farinacci , "Joel M. Halpern" References: <557B09D9.8010705@joelhalpern.com> <7AD0D575-86F8-4B89-A0D4-9A69F31CF9E7@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <7AD0D575-86F8-4B89-A0D4-9A69F31CF9E7@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Cc: "lisp@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [lisp] Fwd: FW: IESG Statement on Internet Draft Authorship X-BeenThere: lisp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List for the discussion of the Locator/ID Separation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2015 17:52:38 -0000 Acknowledgements are a different and more complicated question. Our formal policy is that if someone contributes, they should be acknowledged. If they do not support the work, the acknowledgment should be written carefully so as not to imply their support. There are rare cases (as we had) where someone may be left off the acknowledgements by their request. Yours, Joel On 6/12/15 12:43 PM, Dino Farinacci wrote: > I’ve also seen this problem when non-consenting names appear in the Acknowledgement section. > > Dino > >> On Jun 12, 2015, at 9:33 AM, Joel M. Halpern wrote: >> >> FYI. I am not aware of any instance of this problem in our working group, but you should know the policy anyway. >> Yours, >> Joel >> >> >> -------- Forwarded Message -------- >> Subject: FW: IESG Statement on Internet Draft Authorship >> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2015 14:35:53 +0000 >> From: BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A >> To: rtg-chairs@ietf.org >> >> Not everyone pays attention to the ietf-list, you may want to distribute on your wg lists- >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: IETF-Announce [mailto:ietf-announce-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of The IESG >> Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2015 2:32 PM >> To: IETF Announcement List >> Subject: IESG Statement on Internet Draft Authorship >> >> The IESG has received some reports of IETF participants having been >> listed as document authors on drafts without their consent ("surprised >> authorship"). In some cases, the surprised authors had never seen the >> draft that surprised them. It appears that some draft authors think that >> including other participants as authors is a way to show support for the >> concepts in the document and gain acceptance for those concepts. This >> may be thought of as especially useful if the additional authors are >> established IETF participants. >> >> Adding names of IETF participants who did not actually work on a >> proposal might seem to be a low-risk way of demonstrating "support", but >> this is very clearly not an acceptable practice: no one should ever be >> added to the list of authors on a draft unless that person has consented >> to it and has contributed significantly to the development of the draft. >> >> The practice of adding surprised authors is >> >> - not in line with the IETF culture, where it's the technical issues >> that matter, not who the authors or supporters are; >> - unethical, as it is wrong to claim support from someone who has not >> consented to it; >> - misleading in terms of support; and >> - problematic in terms of IPR disclosures (BCPs 78 and 79). >> >> To emphasize this last point, the person submitting an Internet-Draft is >> asserting that "This Internet-Draft is submitted in full conformance >> with the provisions of BCP 78 and BCP 79". A submitter who has not >> discussed this with all the listed authors cannot make that claim, and >> this can cause procedural and legal problems later. >> >> All authors need to be aware of the ​RFC Editor's statement on >> authorship [1], especially as it relates to responsibility for the >> document's contents. The IESG strongly recommends that all drafts have >> explicit permission from all authors to have their names listed before >> the draft is submitted. >> >> If you feel that you are impacted by the above issues, please talk to >> your Area Director or contact the IESG by ​sending email to >> . As the administrator of the I-D repository (regardless >> of the source or intended stream for the draft), the IESG will handle >> each case of disputed authorship on a case-by-base basis. All reports >> will be investigated, and substantiated claims will be met with >> corrective actions. >> >> The default corrective action will be the replacement of the offending >> draft with a "disputed authorship" tombstone. Such a tombstone would: >> >> - Be published as a successor to the offending draft, >> - Have the offended IETF participant listed as the only author, >> - Will state "The author listed on this tombstone Internet-Draft has >> stated that he/she should not have been listed as an author on the >> previous version. The IETF considers being added as an author >> without one's permission as unethical. The default behaviour of the >> IESG in such cases is to approve replacement of the offending draft >> with this tombstone. Please direct any queries to the author listed >> here." >> >> [1] http://www.rfc-editor.org/pipermail/rfc-interest/2015-May/008869.html >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> lisp mailing list >> lisp@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lisp > From nobody Mon Jun 29 01:40:40 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: lisp@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: lisp@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F08351A040B for ; Mon, 29 Jun 2015 01:40:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id C6IPdnqO7HtF for ; Mon, 29 Jun 2015 01:40:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-f178.google.com (mail-wi0-f178.google.com [209.85.212.178]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 38F721A0161 for ; Mon, 29 Jun 2015 01:40:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wicgi11 with SMTP id gi11so65224477wic.0 for ; Mon, 29 Jun 2015 01:40:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:content-type:message-id:mime-version :subject:date:references:cc:to; bh=U8OgWqBCHJEpxBCg/UuB3S+dcCGsTMsMoNKqPZB8Ayk=; b=kX6C3vc8b12Qnn3nbXqcJuJc3CQm0mHsonYziCaIcOefP2XD3KdFRfJeGgsBunrEKT uEGFhK8uu5TuJo1c/Vp5GYfjbtcs1NpsBY/oHFdSYXuW/qMnSIZypwOEdpKZ3DPD8KiO +I955aQcnnWjIQ2a8UHZsFFV78xzRQS81guvSXnpxeepoao7kWwiPsmwHtSL7uUVUt7Z 3tbIjOpc2ctLjTN+FD/rbrGQbECj8SC3vDhdfVXiInK/rNOpmRpeoY0v9k9IgeMbXrOU HASfjc+L/qnQ7WKV1/9F1H8Qh7ETH4LXQOsmEZ6ygJblEOGd8Fe0c+s7ww9IEPCiebwB Ig6A== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQn0+6pHSvLJP+2XUA62sZPpEaLKX3Fym1YL7MaQ3wYTvHcLbvEPprGWcC31qAJT1g9ipNIJ X-Received: by 10.194.97.196 with SMTP id ec4mr27051373wjb.3.1435567235941; Mon, 29 Jun 2015 01:40:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2001:660:330f:a4:699e:83a:909:b07e? ([2001:660:330f:a4:699e:83a:909:b07e]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id x10sm8822241wjr.25.2015.06.29.01.40.34 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 29 Jun 2015 01:40:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Luigi Iannone Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_73BF8E2E-576A-4C08-A898-8DD5D7431344" Message-Id: <12980580-BF96-47ED-A9BE-55D411DA8FDD@gigix.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2098\)) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 10:44:05 +0200 References: <20150627000828.5519.27795.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> To: LISP mailing list list X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2098) Archived-At: Cc: Damien Saucez Subject: [lisp] Call for Agenda Items X-BeenThere: lisp@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: List for the discussion of the Locator/ID Separation Protocol List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 08:40:39 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_73BF8E2E-576A-4C08-A898-8DD5D7431344 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi All, The final agenda for the IETF 93 @ Prague has been published = (https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/93/agenda.html = ) The LISP WG is scheduled to meet on Monday, July 20th, 2015, from 1520 = to 1720 (two hours) Please send your requests for agenda items (Presenter=E2=80=99s name, = ppt title, slot duration)=20 to lisp-chairs@tools.ietf.org by = Sunday, July 5th, 2015. Chairs are going to prioritize requests based on the charter and = milestones. ciao Luigi & Joel= --Apple-Mail=_73BF8E2E-576A-4C08-A898-8DD5D7431344 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Hi All,

The final agenda for the IETF 93 @ = Prague has been published (https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/93/agenda.html)
<= div class=3D"">
The LISP WG  is = scheduled to meet on Monday, July 20th, 2015, from 1520 to 1720 (two = hours)

Please send your requests for agenda items = (Presenter=E2=80=99s name, ppt title, slot duration) 
to lisp-chairs@tools.ietf.org by Sunday, July 5th, = 2015.

Chairs are going to prioritize = requests based on the charter and = milestones.

ciao

Luigi & Joel
= --Apple-Mail=_73BF8E2E-576A-4C08-A898-8DD5D7431344--