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Subject: [netmod] I-D Action: draft-ietf-netmod-sub-intf-vlan-model-00.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the NETCONF Data Modeling Language of the IETF.

        Title           : Sub-interface VLAN YANG Data Models
        Authors         : Robert Wilton
                          David Ball
                          Tapraj Singh
                          Selvakumar Sivaraj
	Filename        : draft-ietf-netmod-sub-intf-vlan-model-00.txt
	Pages           : 27
	Date            : 2017-01-20

Abstract:
   This document defines YANG modules to add support for classifying
   traffic received on interfaces as Ethernet/VLAN framed packets to
   sub-interfaces based on the fields available in the Ethernet/VLAN
   frame headers.  These modules allow IETF forwarding protocols (such
   as IPv6 and VPLS) to interoperate with VLAN tagged traffic orginated
   from an IEEE 802.1Q compliant bridge.  Primarily the classification
   is based on VLAN identifiers in the 802.1Q VLAN tags, but the model
   also has support for matching on some other layer 2 frame header
   fields and is designed to be extensible to match on other arbitrary
   header fields.

   The model differs from an IEEE 802.1Q bridge model in that the
   configuration is interface/sub-interface based as opposed to being
   based on membership of an 802.1Q VLAN bridge.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-sub-intf-vlan-model/

There's also a htmlized version available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netmod-sub-intf-vlan-model-00


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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From nobody Fri Feb  3 05:40:10 2017
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Subject: [netmod] Augmenting an unimplemented module
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--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/plain



Hi,

Is it allowed for a server to implement a module that augments another
module that it does not implement? My thinking was that the augment
would simply not be implemented in this case. Is that true or must the
server implement any and all augmented modules referenced by a module?

Thanks,
Chris.

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From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
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On Fri, Feb 03, 2017 at 08:40:06AM -0500, Christian Hopps wrote:
> 
> Is it allowed for a server to implement a module that augments another
> module that it does not implement? My thinking was that the augment
> would simply not be implemented in this case. Is that true or must the
> server implement any and all augmented modules referenced by a module?
>

There are modules that only consists of augmentations. It would be
really odd if an implementation claims to have implemented such a
module without implementing the module that has been augmented.  For
example, it would be odd to claim an implementation of ietf-ip without
implementing ietf-interfaces.

I think the proper thing to do is to write explicit deviations if a
portion of a module is not implemented (regardless whether the portion
is an augmentation or not).

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>


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--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/plain


Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> writes:

> On Fri, Feb 03, 2017 at 08:40:06AM -0500, Christian Hopps wrote:
>>
>> Is it allowed for a server to implement a module that augments another
>> module that it does not implement? My thinking was that the augment
>> would simply not be implemented in this case. Is that true or must the
>> server implement any and all augmented modules referenced by a module?
>>
>
> There are modules that only consists of augmentations. It would be
> really odd if an implementation claims to have implemented such a
> module without implementing the module that has been augmented.  For
> example, it would be odd to claim an implementation of ietf-ip without
> implementing ietf-interfaces.
>
> I think the proper thing to do is to write explicit deviations if a
> portion of a module is not implemented (regardless whether the portion
> is an augmentation or not).

Well sure it's odd for an augmenting only module. In my case I'm adding
a feature to another module that is not required for my module to be
useful. My module is quite simple, conversely the module it augments
(yang library) isn't. I didn't want to force the implementer to have to
implement yang library, but I do want to add to it if they do.

In any case is there anything explicit in the standard to indicate that
a deviation must be indicated if an augmented module is not present?
Might be nice to have an ability to tag the augmentation as optional.

Thanks,
Chris.

>
> /js

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From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
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On Fri, Feb 03, 2017 at 11:30:42AM -0500, Christian Hopps wrote:
> 
> Well sure it's odd for an augmenting only module. In my case I'm adding
> a feature to another module that is not required for my module to be
> useful. My module is quite simple, conversely the module it augments
> (yang library) isn't. I didn't want to force the implementer to have to
> implement yang library, but I do want to add to it if they do.
> 
> In any case is there anything explicit in the standard to indicate that
> a deviation must be indicated if an augmented module is not present?
> Might be nice to have an ability to tag the augmentation as optional.
> 

What about tagging the augmentation as a feature if the augmentation
is not essential for your module?

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>


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On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 8:43 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder <
j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:

> On Fri, Feb 03, 2017 at 11:30:42AM -0500, Christian Hopps wrote:
> >
> > Well sure it's odd for an augmenting only module. In my case I'm adding
> > a feature to another module that is not required for my module to be
> > useful. My module is quite simple, conversely the module it augments
> > (yang library) isn't. I didn't want to force the implementer to have to
> > implement yang library, but I do want to add to it if they do.
> >
> > In any case is there anything explicit in the standard to indicate that
> > a deviation must be indicated if an augmented module is not present?
> > Might be nice to have an ability to tag the augmentation as optional.
> >
>
> What about tagging the augmentation as a feature if the augmentation
> is not essential for your module?
>
>
This seems like the correct approach.
If module A considers module B optional, then any augment of module B
within module A must also be optional.

Seems like this should be mentioned in 6087bis.


> /js
>

Andy


>
> --
> Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
> Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>
>
> _______________________________________________
> netmod mailing list
> netmod@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
>

--94eb2c04ec4c76a7c90547a3d773
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 8:43 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder <span dir=3D"ltr"=
>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de" target=3D"_bla=
nk">j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquo=
te class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc so=
lid;padding-left:1ex">On Fri, Feb 03, 2017 at 11:30:42AM -0500, Christian H=
opps wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Well sure it&#39;s odd for an augmenting only module. In my case I&#39=
;m adding<br>
&gt; a feature to another module that is not required for my module to be<b=
r>
&gt; useful. My module is quite simple, conversely the module it augments<b=
r>
&gt; (yang library) isn&#39;t. I didn&#39;t want to force the implementer t=
o have to<br>
&gt; implement yang library, but I do want to add to it if they do.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; In any case is there anything explicit in the standard to indicate tha=
t<br>
&gt; a deviation must be indicated if an augmented module is not present?<b=
r>
&gt; Might be nice to have an ability to tag the augmentation as optional.<=
br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
What about tagging the augmentation as a feature if the augmentation<br>
is not essential for your module?<br>
<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br></font></span></blockquo=
te><div><br></div><div>This seems like the correct approach.</div><div>If m=
odule A considers module B optional, then any augment of module B</div><div=
>within module A must also be optional.</div><div><br></div><div>Seems like=
 this should be mentioned in 6087bis.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;pa=
dding-left:1ex"><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888">
/js<br></font></span></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Andy</div><div>=C2=A0=
</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-l=
eft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"=
#888888">
<br>
--<br>
Juergen Schoenwaelder=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jacobs Univer=
sity Bremen gGmbH<br>
Phone: +49 421 200 3587=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Campus Ring 1 | 28=
759 Bremen | Germany<br>
Fax:=C2=A0 =C2=A0+49 421 200 3103=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;<a h=
ref=3D"http://www.jacobs-university.de/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blan=
k">http://www.jacobs-university.<wbr>de/</a>&gt;<br>
<br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
netmod mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:netmod@ietf.org">netmod@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod" rel=3D"noreferrer"=
 target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/netmod</a><br=
>
</font></span></blockquote></div><br></div></div>

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From: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
To: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>, Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>
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Subject: Re: [netmod] Augmenting an unimplemented module
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Is it cleaner/preferable to do this or to have two models, one with the 
core definitions and one with the augmentations?

Lou


On February 3, 2017 11:43:56 AM Juergen Schoenwaelder 
<j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:

> On Fri, Feb 03, 2017 at 11:30:42AM -0500, Christian Hopps wrote:
>>
>> Well sure it's odd for an augmenting only module. In my case I'm adding
>> a feature to another module that is not required for my module to be
>> useful. My module is quite simple, conversely the module it augments
>> (yang library) isn't. I didn't want to force the implementer to have to
>> implement yang library, but I do want to add to it if they do.
>>
>> In any case is there anything explicit in the standard to indicate that
>> a deviation must be indicated if an augmented module is not present?
>> Might be nice to have an ability to tag the augmentation as optional.
>>
>
> What about tagging the augmentation as a feature if the augmentation
> is not essential for your module?
>
> /js
>
> --
> Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
> Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>
>
> _______________________________________________
> netmod mailing list
> netmod@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
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From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
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On Fri, Feb 03, 2017 at 12:45:44PM -0500, Lou Berger wrote:
> Is it cleaner/preferable to do this or to have two models, one with the core
> definitions and one with the augmentations?

I do not think there is a clear cut rule for this.

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>


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Subject: [netmod] YANG 1.1 range-stmt
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Hi,

I noticed a new difference between our YANG compiler and pyang.

   leaf X {
     type int8;
     range "1 .. 1";
   }


pyang says this is an error:

error: range error: "1" is not larger than "1"

yangdump-pro does not issue any error or warning.

I cannot find any text in sec. 9.2.4 that says the upper bound must be
greater than the lower bound in a range-part

Which compiler is correct?


thanks,
Andy

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi,<div><br></div><div>I noticed a new difference between =
our YANG compiler and pyang.</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0leaf X {=
</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0type int8;</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0ran=
ge &quot;1 .. 1&quot;;</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0}</div><div><br></div><div><b=
r></div><div>pyang says this is an error:</div><div><br></div><div>error: r=
ange error: &quot;1&quot; is not larger than &quot;1&quot;<br></div><div><b=
r></div><div>yangdump-pro does not issue any error or warning.</div><div><b=
r></div><div>I cannot find any text in sec. 9.2.4 that says the upper bound=
 must be</div><div>greater than the lower bound in a range-part</div><div><=
br></div><div>Which compiler is correct?</div><div><br></div><div><br></div=
><div>thanks,</div><div>Andy</div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div>

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Subject: Re: [netmod] Augmenting an unimplemented module
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Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> writes:

> On Fri, Feb 03, 2017 at 11:30:42AM -0500, Christian Hopps wrote:
>>
>> Well sure it's odd for an augmenting only module. In my case I'm adding
>> a feature to another module that is not required for my module to be
>> useful. My module is quite simple, conversely the module it augments
>> (yang library) isn't. I didn't want to force the implementer to have to
>> implement yang library, but I do want to add to it if they do.
>>
>> In any case is there anything explicit in the standard to indicate that
>> a deviation must be indicated if an augmented module is not present?
>> Might be nice to have an ability to tag the augmentation as optional.
>>
>
> What about tagging the augmentation as a feature if the augmentation
> is not essential for your module?

This seems like a solution. From a client perspective at first it seems
like 6 of one or 1/2 dozen of the other. With my earlier assumption the
client would check for the yang library (augmented) module being
supported, and with your suggestion the client checks for the feature
which then implies the augmented module is present. Using feature does
allow for implementing both modules but not the augmentation which I
would prefer to not allow in my case, but you can't always get what you
want. :)

How does one check whether a feature is implemented or not? I couldn't
quite figure this out from reading the STD.

Thanks,
Chris.

>
> /js

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From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
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On Sat, Feb 04, 2017 at 11:59:48AM -0500, Christian Hopps wrote:
> 
> How does one check whether a feature is implemented or not? I couldn't
> quite figure this out from reading the STD.
> 

Since YANG 1.1, features are announced in /modules-state/module/feature
in ietf-yang-library defined RFC 7895. YANG 1 features were announced
as part	of capability URIs during the NETCONF hello exchange, see RFC
6020 section 5.6.4. RESTCONF uses teh ietf-yang-library.

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
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On Sat, Feb 4, 2017 at 9:27 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder <
j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:

> On Sat, Feb 04, 2017 at 11:59:48AM -0500, Christian Hopps wrote:
> >
> > How does one check whether a feature is implemented or not? I couldn't
> > quite figure this out from reading the STD.
> >
>
> Since YANG 1.1, features are announced in /modules-state/module/feature
> in ietf-yang-library defined RFC 7895. YANG 1 features were announced
> as part of capability URIs during the NETCONF hello exchange, see RFC
> 6020 section 5.6.4. RESTCONF uses teh ietf-yang-library.
>
>
We are doing both in our server: the YANG library is fully implemented and
module capabilities for all modules are advertised, not just YANG 1.0
modules.
It may take a couple years before the client tools adjust to the library
cache approach.


/js
>

Andy


>
> --
> Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
> Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>
>
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Sat, Feb 4, 2017 at 9:27 AM, Juergen Schoenwaelder <span dir=3D"ltr"=
>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de" target=3D"_bla=
nk">j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquo=
te class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc so=
lid;padding-left:1ex">On Sat, Feb 04, 2017 at 11:59:48AM -0500, Christian H=
opps wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; How does one check whether a feature is implemented or not? I couldn&#=
39;t<br>
&gt; quite figure this out from reading the STD.<br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
Since YANG 1.1, features are announced in /modules-state/module/feature<br>
in ietf-yang-library defined RFC 7895. YANG 1 features were announced<br>
as part of capability URIs during the NETCONF hello exchange, see RFC<br>
6020 section 5.6.4. RESTCONF uses teh ietf-yang-library.<br>
<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br></font></span></blockquo=
te><div><br></div><div>We are doing both in our server: the YANG library is=
 fully implemented and</div><div>module capabilities for all modules are ad=
vertised, not just YANG 1.0 modules.</div><div>It may take a couple years b=
efore the client tools adjust to the library cache approach.</div><div><br>=
</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 =
0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span class=3D"HOEnZb">=
<font color=3D"#888888">
/js<br></font></span></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Andy</div><div>=C2=A0=
</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-l=
eft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"=
#888888">
<br>
--<br>
Juergen Schoenwaelder=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jacobs Univer=
sity Bremen gGmbH<br>
Phone: +49 421 200 3587=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Campus Ring 1 | 28=
759 Bremen | Germany<br>
Fax:=C2=A0 =C2=A0+49 421 200 3103=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;<a h=
ref=3D"http://www.jacobs-university.de/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blan=
k">http://www.jacobs-university.<wbr>de/</a>&gt;<br>
<br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
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</font></span></blockquote></div><br></div></div>

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Subject: Re: [netmod] YANG 1.1 range-stmt
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Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com> wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I noticed a new difference between our YANG compiler and pyang.
> 
>    leaf X {
>      type int8;
>      range "1 .. 1";
>    }
> 
> 
> pyang says this is an error:
> 
> error: range error: "1" is not larger than "1"
> 
> yangdump-pro does not issue any error or warning.
> 
> I cannot find any text in sec. 9.2.4 that says the upper bound must be
> greater than the lower bound in a range-part
> 
> Which compiler is correct?

Unclear.  It is not even clear that range "1 .. 0" is an error.

Not surprisingly, I would argue that "1 .. 1" was intended to be
illegal, since we have a special syntax for this case, i.e., "1".


/martin


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On 06/02/2017 07:55, Martin Bjorklund wrote:
> Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I noticed a new difference between our YANG compiler and pyang.
>>
>>     leaf X {
>>       type int8;
>>       range "1 .. 1";
>>     }
>>
>>
>> pyang says this is an error:
>>
>> error: range error: "1" is not larger than "1"
>>
>> yangdump-pro does not issue any error or warning.
>>
>> I cannot find any text in sec. 9.2.4 that says the upper bound must be
>> greater than the lower bound in a range-part
>>
>> Which compiler is correct?
> Unclear.  It is not even clear that range "1 .. 0" is an error.
>
> Not surprisingly, I would argue that "1 .. 1" was intended to be
> illegal, since we have a special syntax for this case, i.e., "1".
Certainly "1" seems to be the canonical form.

Note, that similar conditions also occur when you consider min and max.

E.g.

    leaf X {
      type uint8;
      range "min .. 0";
    }

Rob


>
>
> /martin
>
> _______________________________________________
> netmod mailing list
> netmod@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
> .
>


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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/gYMpv1tHvXG8w4mHfRXFi3ztauA>
Cc: netmod@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [netmod] example modules in 6087bis-10
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I don't understand!

- s.4.2
"The following example is for the '2010-01-18' revision of the
'ietf-foo' module: "

 compared with

"
revision 2016-03-20 { description "Latest revision";  reference "RFC
XXXX";
"

and I would add an RFC Editor note for XXXX to replace XXXX with the
number of this RFC once published.


- 50 pages in I come across to reference to YANG 1.1 - this may come as
a shock to some; it left me wondering about the applicability of the
first 50 pages; I think this should be clarified if only for those who
may be unaware of the concurrent existence of different versions of
YANG.

- IANA Considerations
I-D 5226bis suggests a form of words such as
"   Because this document obsoletes RFC 4637, IANA is asked to change
      all registration information that references [RFC4637] to instead
      reference [[this RFC]]."
with /4367/6087/ in this case;  I would find that clearer.  The current
text talks of changes and I see none, apart from Appendix B to Appendix
C and this does not figure on the IANA pages.

I have not read the I-D and do not have a view on whether or not it is
ready to advance.

Tom Petch


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From: "Martin Bjorklund" <mbj@tail-f.com>
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Cc: netmod@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [netmod] Augmenting an unimplemented module
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My earlier problem was that if I do not implement the augmented module 
(modA) even if the augment is switched off by a feature, I still need to 
have the NOT implemented augmented module (modA)  in yang-library to 
satisfy the import statement of the augmenting module (modB). So I 
decided to follow Lou's suggestion and separate the core and the 
augmenting definitions of (modB-core and modB-augment). This way if the 
augmented module (modA)  is absent I can exclude the augmenting 
parts(modB-augment), but still use the core parts (modB-core).

regards Balazs


On 2017-02-03 18:45, Lou Berger wrote:
> Is it cleaner/preferable to do this or to have two models, one with 
> the core definitions and one with the augmentations?
>
> Lou
>
>
> On February 3, 2017 11:43:56 AM Juergen Schoenwaelder 
> <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Feb 03, 2017 at 11:30:42AM -0500, Christian Hopps wrote:
>>>
>>> Well sure it's odd for an augmenting only module. In my case I'm adding
>>> a feature to another module that is not required for my module to be
>>> useful. My module is quite simple, conversely the module it augments
>>> (yang library) isn't. I didn't want to force the implementer to have to
>>> implement yang library, but I do want to add to it if they do.
>>>
>>> In any case is there anything explicit in the standard to indicate that
>>> a deviation must be indicated if an augmented module is not present?
>>> Might be nice to have an ability to tag the augmentation as optional.
>>>
>>
>> What about tagging the augmentation as a feature if the augmentation
>> is not essential for your module?
>>
>> /js
>>
>> -- 
>> Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
>> Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
>> Fax:   +49 421 200 3103 <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> netmod mailing list
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>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> netmod mailing list
> netmod@ietf.org
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>

-- 
Balazs Lengyel                       Ericsson Hungary Ltd.
Senior Specialist
Mobile: +36-70-330-7909              email: Balazs.Lengyel@ericsson.com


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Thread-Topic: does a union leaf preserve the input format ?
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Subject: [netmod] does a union leaf preserve the input format ?
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Hi all,

>From RFC6020/7950 and a search in the netmod archives I'm not certain if a =
leaf defined as a union is required to preserve the representation that was=
 set in an edit by a client.

For example:

  leaf ip-protocol {
    type union {
      type uint8 {
        range 0..254;
      }
      type enumeration {
        enum icmp;
        enum tcp;
         ...
      }
    }

If an <edit-config> sets ip-protocol to tcp:
                <ip-protocol>tcp</ip-protocol>

is it expected that a <get-config> would return 'tcp' and not '6' ?

I can see in the RFCs that during an edit, the value is checked against eac=
h union type in order.  But not certain that the rest of the language that =
describes union indicates whether the syntax/format should be preserved fro=
m the original input.

Or is a server free to reply to a <get-config> with either 'tcp' or '6' in =
the example above ?

There are some common uses of union that this question is applicable to -> =
dscp ('10' vs 'af11'), ip addresses (especially ipv6), well know port numbe=
rs, etc.

Regards,
Jason


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<body lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi all,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">From RFC6020/7950 and a search in the netmod archive=
s I&#8217;m not certain if a leaf defined as a union is required to preserv=
e the representation that was set in an edit by a client.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">For example:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; leaf ip-protocol {<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; type union {<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;type uint8 {<o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; range 0..=
254;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; }<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; type enumeration {<o:=
p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; enum icmp=
;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; enum tcp;=
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ...=
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; }<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; }<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">If an &lt;edit-config&gt; sets ip-protocol to tcp:<o=
:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;ip-protocol&gt;tcp&lt;/ip-protoc=
ol&gt;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">is it expected that a &lt;get-config&gt; would retur=
n &#8216;tcp&#8217; and not &#8216;6&#8217; ?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I can see in the RFCs that during an edit, the value=
 is checked against each union type in order.&nbsp; But not certain that th=
e rest of the language that describes union indicates whether the syntax/fo=
rmat should be preserved from the original
 input.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Or is a server free to reply to a &lt;get-config&gt;=
 with either &#8216;tcp&#8217; or &#8216;6&#8217; in the example above ?<o:=
p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">There are some common uses of union that this questi=
on is applicable to -&gt; dscp (&#8216;10&#8217; vs &#8216;af11&#8217;), ip=
 addresses (especially ipv6), well know port numbers, etc.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Jason<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_HE1PR07MB084387077AB46AAD05F794279B420HE1PR07MB0843eurp_--


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From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
To: "Sterne, Jason (Nokia - CA)" <jason.sterne@nokia.com>
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Subject: Re: [netmod] does a union leaf preserve the input format ?
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Jason,

I do not recall we ever discussed this question. I think the union
should by default remember the type selected and thus if you configure
'tcp' the value returned should be 'tcp' unless otherwise stated in
the description statement (i.e., the description statement says that
the canonical format of the union is always a number).

Note that type specific canonicalization still applies according to
the type selected. For example, if there is an ipv6-address in a
union, then the value '0::1' should still be converted to '::1'.

(I know, this leaves the possibility that one can construct a union of
two types where type B is selected by a value but the canonicalization
applied by type B returns a value that would select type A. I consider
this a pathological case that deserves specific text in the
description statement.)

/js

On Wed, Feb 08, 2017 at 04:15:56AM +0000, Sterne, Jason (Nokia - CA) wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> >From RFC6020/7950 and a search in the netmod archives I'm not certain if a leaf defined as a union is required to preserve the representation that was set in an edit by a client.
> 
> For example:
> 
>   leaf ip-protocol {
>     type union {
>       type uint8 {
>         range 0..254;
>       }
>       type enumeration {
>         enum icmp;
>         enum tcp;
>          ...
>       }
>     }
> 
> If an <edit-config> sets ip-protocol to tcp:
>                 <ip-protocol>tcp</ip-protocol>
> 
> is it expected that a <get-config> would return 'tcp' and not '6' ?
> 
> I can see in the RFCs that during an edit, the value is checked against each union type in order.  But not certain that the rest of the language that describes union indicates whether the syntax/format should be preserved from the original input.
> 
> Or is a server free to reply to a <get-config> with either 'tcp' or '6' in the example above ?
> 
> There are some common uses of union that this question is applicable to -> dscp ('10' vs 'af11'), ip addresses (especially ipv6), well know port numbers, etc.
> 
> Regards,
> Jason
> 

> _______________________________________________
> netmod mailing list
> netmod@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod


-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>


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From: Dean Bogdanovic <ivandean@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [netmod] [OPSAWG] Question on draft-ietf-netmod-yang-model-classification
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> On Feb 7, 2017, at 8:45 PM, Tianran Zhou <zhoutianran@huawei.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> Hi Dean,
>=20
>=20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Dean Bogdanovic [mailto:ivandean@gmail.com]
>> Sent: Monday, January 30, 2017 7:53 PM
>> To: Tianran Zhou
>> Cc: adrian@olddog.co.uk; netmod@ietf.org; opsawg@ietf.org;
>> draft-ietf-netmod-yang-model-classification@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [netmod] [OPSAWG] Question on
>> draft-ietf-netmod-yang-model-classification
>>=20
>>=20
>>> On Jan 23, 2017, at 9:32 AM, Tianran Zhou <zhoutianran@huawei.com> =
wrote:
>>>=20
>>> To add more comments:
>>>=20
>>> On the L2SM meeting, several people (4 or more) believed the 3 =
service
>> delivery model examples ([I-D.dhjain-bess-bgp-l3vpn-yang],
>> [I-D.ietf-bess-l2vpn-yang] and [I-D.ietf-bess-evpn-yang]) are =
actually
>> device models.
>>>=20
>>> I think both of the two I-Ds
>> ([draft-ietf-netmod-yang-model-classification] and
>> [draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained]) can check if those YANG =
models
>> are device models or service models.
>>=20
>> The idea is that the classification drafts will provide guidelines =
for the
>> authors to do their own classification. As mentioned in my previous =
email,
>> the only people who will be able to do the right classification, are =
the
>> module authors.
>=20
> But you list some examples in each category. If those example modules =
are actually not fit in, I think it will mislead and confuse the =
readers.

Good point.
>=20
>>=20
>> Please see I=E2=80=99m using distinction between module and model. =
Model can consist
>> of multiple modules and in models you can get classification =
ambiguity.
>> Modules are much more clear to classify.
>=20
> Do you mean usually it's hard to classify the "model"? Because it may =
contain many "modules" for different use.

Yes.

Dean

>=20
>> Dean
>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Regards,
>>> Tianran
>>>=20
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: OPSAWG [mailto:opsawg-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Adrian
>>>> Farrel
>>>> Sent: Friday, January 20, 2017 12:25 AM
>>>> To: netmod@ietf.org
>>>> Cc: opsawg@ietf.org;
>>>> draft-ietf-netmod-yang-model-classification@ietf.org
>>>> Subject: [OPSAWG] Question on
>>>> draft-ietf-netmod-yang-model-classification
>>>>=20
>>>> Hi,
>>>>=20
>>>> We've been trying to ensure that
>>>> draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained
>>>> is consistent with the latest version of
>>>> draft-ietf-netmod-yang-model-classification. In discussions with
>>>> Tianran a question has come up.
>>>>=20
>>>> In section 2 you have a nice definition of Network Service YANG
>>>> Modules and this definition maps nicely to our definition of =
"service
>>>> delivery models".
>>>> Furthermore, your figure 1 shows Network Service YANG Modules on =
the
>>>> interface between OSS/BSS and the various network services.
>>>>=20
>>>> We have further defined "customer service models" at a higher layer =
still.
>>>> That is, on the interface to the customer. This (of course?) =
assumes
>>>> that the OSS/BSS is not customer code :-)
>>>>=20
>>>> However, your discussion of Network Service YANG Modules in section
>>>> 2.1 seems slightly at odds, although this may be just ambiguity.
>>>>=20
>>>> For example, when you say, "Network Service YANG Modules describe =
the
>>>> characteristics of a service, as agreed upon with consumers of that
>> service,"
>>>> this is not the same as, "This model is used in the discussion
>>>> between a customer and a service provide to describe the =
characteristics
>> of a service."
>>>> That is, the former case could be arrived at after processing based
>>>> on the latter case - processing that we have called "service
>>>> orchestration" but might (of course) be what leads to the operator =
poking
>> the OSS/BSS.
>>>>=20
>>>> This might all be fine and good, but later in the same section you
>>>> say "Network Service YANG Modules define service models to be
>>>> consumed by external systems.
>>>> These modules are commonly designed, developed and deployed by
>>>> network infrastructure teams." And there you introduce two terms =
that
>>>> are previously undefined and only server to add ambiguity. =
Specifically
>> "external to what?"
>>>> I could make and argument that the OSS is developed and deployed by
>>>> network infrastructure teams, ad also that the OSS is external to =
the
>> network itself.
>>>>=20
>>>> And, in between these two quoted pieces of text, you have...
>>>>=20
>>>>  As an example, the Network Service YANG Module defined in
>>>>  [YANG-Data-Model-for-L3VPN-service-delivery] provides an abstract
>>>>  model for Layer 3 IP VPN service configuration.
>>>>=20
>>>> Per my other email, this reference needs to be fixed. But I =
struggle
>>>> to see the L3SM module as consistent with your figure. It may or =
may
>>>> not be consistent with your text dependent on the interpretation.
>>>>=20
>>>> In draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained Figure 4 we have tried =
to
>>>> show how we (the authors) think L3SM fits into your classification.
>>>> Here we place L3SM further up the layering stack.
>>>>=20
>>>> [Apologies for not spotting this sooner. The citation
>>>> "YANG-Data-Model-for-L3VPN-service-delivery" includes the term
>>>> "service delivery" which I took to imply a different module.]
>>>>=20
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Adrian
>>>>=20
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> OPSAWG mailing list
>>>> OPSAWG@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> netmod mailing list
>>> netmod@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
>=20


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--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/plain


We also went with the split route with our tags draft.

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-rtgyangdt-netmod-module-tags/

Features like deviations were not liked internally by the group. 2
modules seemed like the KISS approach.

Thanks,
Chris.

Balazs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> writes:

> My earlier problem was that if I do not implement the augmented module
> (modA) even if the augment is switched off by a feature, I still need to
> have the NOT implemented augmented module (modA)  in yang-library to
> satisfy the import statement of the augmenting module (modB). So I
> decided to follow Lou's suggestion and separate the core and the
> augmenting definitions of (modB-core and modB-augment). This way if the
> augmented module (modA)  is absent I can exclude the augmenting
> parts(modB-augment), but still use the core parts (modB-core).
>
> regards Balazs
>
>
> On 2017-02-03 18:45, Lou Berger wrote:
>> Is it cleaner/preferable to do this or to have two models, one with
>> the core definitions and one with the augmentations?
>>
>> Lou
>>
>>
>> On February 3, 2017 11:43:56 AM Juergen Schoenwaelder
>> <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, Feb 03, 2017 at 11:30:42AM -0500, Christian Hopps wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Well sure it's odd for an augmenting only module. In my case I'm adding
>>>> a feature to another module that is not required for my module to be
>>>> useful. My module is quite simple, conversely the module it augments
>>>> (yang library) isn't. I didn't want to force the implementer to have to
>>>> implement yang library, but I do want to add to it if they do.
>>>>
>>>> In any case is there anything explicit in the standard to indicate that
>>>> a deviation must be indicated if an augmented module is not present?
>>>> Might be nice to have an ability to tag the augmentation as optional.
>>>>
>>>
>>> What about tagging the augmentation as a feature if the augmentation
>>> is not essential for your module?
>>>
>>> /js
>>>
>>> --
>>> Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
>>> Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
>>> Fax:   +49 421 200 3103 <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> netmod mailing list
>>> netmod@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> netmod mailing list
>> netmod@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
>>


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On Wed, Feb 08, 2017 at 09:06:19AM -0500, Christian Hopps wrote:
> 
> We also went with the split route with our tags draft.
> 
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-rtgyangdt-netmod-module-tags/
> 
> Features like deviations were not liked internally by the group. 2
> modules seemed like the KISS approach.
>

I wonder why your define add-tags, remove-tags, and reset-tags
operations given that we have generic primitives to edit datastores.

Also note that draft-ietf-netmod-yang-model-classification-04.txt
distinguishes 'element' and 'service' modules, not as your ID says
'service' and 'entity' modules.

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>


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Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
> On Wed, Feb 08, 2017 at 09:06:19AM -0500, Christian Hopps wrote:
> > 
> > We also went with the split route with our tags draft.
> > 
> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-rtgyangdt-netmod-module-tags/
> > 
> > Features like deviations were not liked internally by the group. 2
> > modules seemed like the KISS approach.
> >
> 
> I wonder why your define add-tags, remove-tags, and reset-tags
> operations given that we have generic primitives to edit datastores.

I think (hope) they mean that these operations affect only the tags in
yang-library, not the config container 'modules-tags' in the module
itself.

But I think it would be better to only have these tags in the
yang-library, and not in the module itself.  (In that case the rpcs
are required).

Also, it might be useful if the module designer could tag modules
at design time, using an extension:

  mt:module-tag "ietf:element-model";
  mt:module-tag "vendor:native";


/martin


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On Wed, Feb 08, 2017 at 04:11:01PM +0100, Martin Bjorklund wrote:
> Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
> > On Wed, Feb 08, 2017 at 09:06:19AM -0500, Christian Hopps wrote:
> > > 
> > > We also went with the split route with our tags draft.
> > > 
> > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-rtgyangdt-netmod-module-tags/
> > > 
> > > Features like deviations were not liked internally by the group. 2
> > > modules seemed like the KISS approach.
> > >
> > 
> > I wonder why your define add-tags, remove-tags, and reset-tags
> > operations given that we have generic primitives to edit datastores.
> 
> I think (hope) they mean that these operations affect only the tags in
> yang-library, not the config container 'modules-tags' in the module
> itself.
> 
> But I think it would be better to only have these tags in the
> yang-library, and not in the module itself.  (In that case the rpcs
> are required).
> 
> Also, it might be useful if the module designer could tag modules
> at design time, using an extension:
> 
>   mt:module-tag "ietf:element-model";
>   mt:module-tag "vendor:native";

We should perhaps start a separate thread but I fail to see why tags
require new editing primitives. In fact, there seem to be system
supplied tags and configured tags. It is unclear whether I can remove
a system supplied tag. It is unclear what the persistence of added
tags is. If NC/RC clients can tag modules, then these tags are just
more config I would say.

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>


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From: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
To: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>, Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>
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Subject: Re: [netmod] Augmenting an unimplemented module
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On February 8, 2017 10:16:14 AM Juergen Schoenwaelder 
<j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
...
>
> We should perhaps start a separate thread but I fail to see why tags
> require new editing primitives.

It was an intentional design choice/preference by one of the authors. 
Basically, Chris thought it was easier from a client perspective.  He's the 
user, so he won:-)

Lou
(Co author)



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From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: "'Dean Bogdanovic'" <dean@voltanet.io>
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Cc: opsawg@ietf.org, draft-ietf-netmod-yang-model-classification@ietf.org, netmod@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [netmod] Question on draft-ietf-netmod-yang-model-classification
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Hi Dean,

I've been processing your response and the continuing thread with you =
and Tianran.

> > We've been trying to ensure that =
draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained is
> > consistent with the latest version of
> > draft-ietf-netmod-yang-model-classification. In discussions with =
Tianran a
> > question has come up.
> >
> > In section 2 you have a nice definition of Network Service YANG =
Modules and
> > this definition maps nicely to our definition of "service delivery =
models".
> > Furthermore, your figure 1 shows Network Service YANG Modules on the
> > interface between OSS/BSS and the various network services.
> >
> > We have further defined "customer service models" at a higher layer =
still. That
> > is, on the interface to the customer. This (of course?) assumes that =
the
> > OSS/BSS is not customer code :-)
> >
> > However, your discussion of Network Service YANG Modules in section =
2.1
> > seems slightly at odds, although this may be just ambiguity.
> >
> > For example, when you say, "Network Service YANG Modules describe =
the
> > characteristics of a service, as agreed upon with consumers of that =
service,"
> > this is not the same as, "This model is used in the discussion =
between a
> > customer and a service provide to describe the characteristics of a =
service."
> > That is, the former case could be arrived at after processing based =
on the
> > latter case - processing that we have called "service orchestration" =
but might
> > (of course) be what leads to the operator poking the OSS/BSS.
>=20
> Adrian, I can see the ambiguity. The point of service module is to be =
consumed by
> the customer and there can be some modifications of the service module =
to
> adapt to the customer specifics.

So far I agree with your email and therefore not with your document. The =
OSS/BSS is not, IMHO, a tool used by the customer.

Please see Figure 3 in draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained-05.txt =
that shows the customer distinct from the OSS/BSS.

> > This might all be fine and good, but later in the same section you =
say "Network
> > Service YANG Modules define service models to be consumed by =
external
> > systems.
> > These modules are commonly designed, developed and deployed by =
network
> > infrastructure teams." And there you introduce two terms that are =
previously
> > undefined and only server to add ambiguity. Specifically "external =
to what?" I
> > could make and argument that the OSS is developed and deployed by =
network
> > infrastructure teams, ad also that the OSS is external to the =
network itself.
>=20
> Agree that external systems are not defined and this text has to be =
clarified. The
> external systems can be OSS and BSS.

If we relabelled our "Service Delivery Model" as "Network Service Model" =
would that be consistent?

That is, in any case, to say that the OSS/BSS does not talk directly to =
the devices.

> > And, in between these two quoted pieces of text, you have...
> >
> >   As an example, the Network Service YANG Module defined in
> >   [YANG-Data-Model-for-L3VPN-service-delivery] provides an abstract
> >   model for Layer 3 IP VPN service configuration.
>=20
> My question is where do you see the L3SM model
> above or below OSS?

Well, look at the figure in section 5 of =
draft-ietf-l3sm-l3vpn-service-model-19.txt

It is logically higher, but OSS/BSS are not "in the flow" as they are =
legacy components in a softwarized world.
However, per our pictures, OSS/BSS should use the same set of =
models/modules as used by the "service orchestrator".

> Because there are some nuances in the service module, but at the end =
we
> decided not to do sub classification

Mutter, mutter.
In the document, you talk about "network service modules" not "service =
modules" and only trim to "service module" in the text implying that you =
always actually mean "network service module".

> one is the business and one technical service.
>=20
> When i read the YANG-Data-Model-for-L3VPN-service-delivery, it looked =
to me
> much more like a technical model, then the business model, as =
didn=E2=80=99t see SLA
> definitions to track the business parameters of the service use.

It is certainly not a business model and does not include SLAs. Other =
people have far more experience working on these things (TMF, MEF, ...) =
and it is not an IETF core competence. Our intention is that our module =
can be augmented or accompanied by other modules in order to create a =
business model, acknowledging that commercial details (even including =
SLAs) will vary from one operator to another, but that the core =
technical description of the service can be (and, it turns out, is) =
common across multiple providers.

We even wrote text in Section 5 of =
draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained to help with this.

> > Per my other email, this reference needs to be fixed. But I struggle =
to see the
> > L3SM module as consistent with your figure. It may or may not be =
consistent
> > with your text dependent on the interpretation.
>=20
> Sure, we can fix that reference, but the authors of L3SM module should =
do their
> own module classification, as they are the only ones that know the =
intent of the
> module.

That is fine. They can classify it, and they can use your classification =
system, but only if it can be understood, is meaningful, and fits what =
they are trying to achieve :-)

Your text currently says
   As an example, the Network Service YANG Module defined in
   [YANG-Data-Model-for-L3VPN-service-delivery] provides an abstract
   model for Layer 3 IP VPN service configuration.

Your text and figures show "Network Service YANG Module" as being =
something that the OSS/BSS talks (presumably toward a network =
orchestrator?). Thus the L3SM module does not fit here. And that is why =
we wrote draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained and included Figure 4 =
to augment your figure.

And *finally*, Tianran is concerned that there may be confusion arising =
from whether the module we reference are "Network service modules", =
"service delivery modules", "network configuration modules", "network =
element modules", or "device configuration modules". So many terms, but =
presumably these modules don't fit into all of the categories! The list =
is:

[I-D.dhjain-bess-bgp-l3vpn-yang]
[I-D.ietf-bess-l2vpn-yang]
[I-D.ietf-bess-evpn-yang]

I wonder what type of module you think these are.

Cheers,
Adrian




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From: "Carl Moberg (camoberg)" <camoberg@cisco.com>
To: "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
Thread-Topic: Question on draft-ietf-netmod-yang-model-classification
Thread-Index: AdJycEnw/7BBgfqES8aIslF6yofdUQIsPb0AAc2CsIAAAYRTgA==
Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2017 16:47:46 +0000
Message-ID: <8DACB5AE-56FE-4CB1-BCBE-8D2BD214FFC0@cisco.com>
References: <067201d27270$a08cc790$e1a656b0$@olddog.co.uk> <4248688C-E0AC-4302-A281-0622D824FA4D@voltanet.io> <06fa01d28225$05a25050$10e6f0f0$@olddog.co.uk>
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Cc: "opsawg@ietf.org" <opsawg@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-netmod-yang-model-classification@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-netmod-yang-model-classification@ietf.org>, "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>, Dean Bogdanovic <dean@voltanet.io>
Subject: Re: [netmod] Question on draft-ietf-netmod-yang-model-classification
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Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net> writes:

> On February 8, 2017 10:16:14 AM Juergen Schoenwaelder
> <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
> ...
>>
>> We should perhaps start a separate thread but I fail to see why tags
>> require new editing primitives.
>
> It was an intentional design choice/preference by one of the authors.
> Basically, Chris thought it was easier from a client perspective.  He's the
> user, so he won:-)

The tags in the library and the tags in a module are updated at the same
time and represent logically the same list of tags. Its clear this
happens with an RPC. It seems a lot less clear this would (or should)
happen if one edited only once location.

Thanks,
Chris.

>
> Lou
> (Co author)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> netmod mailing list
> netmod@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod


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From: Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>
To: Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>
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Subject: [netmod] Module tags [Re:  Augmenting an unimplemented module]
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Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com> writes:

> Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
>> On Wed, Feb 08, 2017 at 09:06:19AM -0500, Christian Hopps wrote:
>> >
>> > We also went with the split route with our tags draft.
>> >
>> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-rtgyangdt-netmod-module-tags/
>> >
>> > Features like deviations were not liked internally by the group. 2
>> > modules seemed like the KISS approach.
>> >
>>
>> I wonder why your define add-tags, remove-tags, and reset-tags
>> operations given that we have generic primitives to edit datastores.
>
> I think (hope) they mean that these operations affect only the tags in
> yang-library, not the config container 'modules-tags' in the module
> itself.

There's a single logical tag list for a module that is possibly exposed
in 2 locations depending on what the server supports.

> But I think it would be better to only have these tags in the
> yang-library, and not in the module itself.  (In that case the rpcs
> are required).

The module tags are useful if the yang library is not there, it is also
useful to have the module tags for writing concise xpath selection
criteria.

> Also, it might be useful if the module designer could tag modules
> at design time, using an extension:
>
>   mt:module-tag "ietf:element-model";
>   mt:module-tag "vendor:native";

We have text in the document that talks specifically about module
authors initially seeding the tag list.

Thanks,
Chris.

>
>
> /martin


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Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> writes:

> On Wed, Feb 08, 2017 at 09:06:19AM -0500, Christian Hopps wrote:
>>
>> We also went with the split route with our tags draft.
>>
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-rtgyangdt-netmod-module-tags/

> Also note that draft-ietf-netmod-yang-model-classification-04.txt
> distinguishes 'element' and 'service' modules, not as your ID says
> 'service' and 'entity' modules.

I've fixed this locally and will get updated in next rev, thanks for
catching this.

Thanks,
Chris.

>
> /js

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From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
To: Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>
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On Wed, Feb 08, 2017 at 01:22:01PM -0500, Christian Hopps wrote:
> 
> Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net> writes:
> 
> > On February 8, 2017 10:16:14 AM Juergen Schoenwaelder
> > <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
> > ...
> >>
> >> We should perhaps start a separate thread but I fail to see why tags
> >> require new editing primitives.
> >
> > It was an intentional design choice/preference by one of the authors.
> > Basically, Chris thought it was easier from a client perspective.  He's the
> > user, so he won:-)
> 
> The tags in the library and the tags in a module are updated at the same
> time and represent logically the same list of tags. Its clear this
> happens with an RPC. It seems a lot less clear this would (or should)
> happen if one edited only once location.
> 

I am not convinced by the design. We have lots of other resources
where we have configured and system determined values. I do not see
that tags are any different.

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>


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Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
> On Wed, Feb 08, 2017 at 01:22:01PM -0500, Christian Hopps wrote:
> > 
> > Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net> writes:
> > 
> > > On February 8, 2017 10:16:14 AM Juergen Schoenwaelder
> > > <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
> > > ...
> > >>
> > >> We should perhaps start a separate thread but I fail to see why tags
> > >> require new editing primitives.
> > >
> > > It was an intentional design choice/preference by one of the authors.
> > > Basically, Chris thought it was easier from a client perspective.  He's the
> > > user, so he won:-)
> > 
> > The tags in the library and the tags in a module are updated at the same
> > time and represent logically the same list of tags. Its clear this
> > happens with an RPC. It seems a lot less clear this would (or should)
> > happen if one edited only once location.
> > 
> 
> I am not convinced by the design. We have lots of other resources
> where we have configured and system determined values. I do not see
> that tags are any different.

I agree.  *If* you want a config true datastructure, it should be
modified with the normal edit operations, not special RPCs.  There are
several reasons for this.  For example, how would your new RPCs interact
with locks?  With candidate?  With startup?

Also I am not sure it is a good idea to add configuration meta-data
that really should be common across all modules into the modules
themselves.  Another approach is to keep a separate list with the
tags, indexed by modulename and revision.


/martin


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Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net> wrote:
> 
> 
> On 2/8/2017 3:34 PM, Martin Bjorklund wrote:
> > Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
> >> On Wed, Feb 08, 2017 at 01:22:01PM -0500, Christian Hopps wrote:
> >>> Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net> writes:
> >>>
> >>>> On February 8, 2017 10:16:14 AM Juergen Schoenwaelder
> >>>> <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
> >>>> ...
> >>>>> We should perhaps start a separate thread but I fail to see why tags
> >>>>> require new editing primitives.
> >>>> It was an intentional design choice/preference by one of the authors.
> >>>> Basically, Chris thought it was easier from a client perspective.  He's the
> >>>> user, so he won:-)
> >>> The tags in the library and the tags in a module are updated at the same
> >>> time and represent logically the same list of tags. Its clear this
> >>> happens with an RPC. It seems a lot less clear this would (or should)
> >>> happen if one edited only once location.
> >>>
> >> I am not convinced by the design. We have lots of other resources
> >> where we have configured and system determined values. I do not see
> >> that tags are any different.
> > I agree.  *If* you want a config true datastructure, it should be
> > modified with the normal edit operations, not special RPCs.  There are
> > several reasons for this.  For example, how would your new RPCs interact
> > with locks?  With candidate?  With startup?
> I defer to Chris on us of RPCs in general, but an interesting use case
> that is supported with RPCs is tag modification in RO modules.

Yes, but we are talking about configuration data.

> > Also I am not sure it is a good idea to add configuration meta-data
> > that really should be common across all modules into the modules
> > themselves.  Another approach is to keep a separate list with the
> > tags, indexed by modulename and revision.
> >
> This is what the library augmentation is aimed at.

Yes that is needed, but if you also want to let clients configure
tags, you need another list.


/martin


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--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/plain


Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com> writes:
> Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
>> On Wed, Feb 08, 2017 at 01:22:01PM -0500, Christian Hopps wrote:
>> >
>> > The tags in the library and the tags in a module are updated at the same
>> > time and represent logically the same list of tags. Its clear this
>> > happens with an RPC. It seems a lot less clear this would (or should)
>> > happen if one edited only once location.
>>
>> I am not convinced by the design. We have lots of other resources
>> where we have configured and system determined values. I do not see
>> that tags are any different.
>
> I agree.  *If* you want a config true datastructure, it should be
> modified with the normal edit operations, not special RPCs.  There are
> several reasons for this.  For example, how would your new RPCs interact
> with locks?  With candidate?  With startup?

The point of already existing mechanisms and locks is somewhat
compelling. Although this data is not very dynamic so it's hard to
imagine locks coming into play, but the point is still taken.

So if the user changes the tags on a module using the module path can we
just indicate that it would automatically also update in the yang
library list? We use a grouping that gets stamped inside a module and
then we have another module define the yang library notation would we
simply define the semantics in text and outside of yang? It's easy for
the module grouping to refer to the yang library but the reverse is not
true.

> Also I am not sure it is a good idea to add configuration meta-data
> that really should be common across all modules into the modules
> themselves.  Another approach is to keep a separate list with the
> tags, indexed by modulename and revision.

I don't understand what your getting at here. Are you referring to the
grouping that gets used by a module author inside their module? The tags
set for a given module are specific to that module only.

Thanks,
Chris.

> /martin

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On Wed, Feb 08, 2017 at 04:04:11PM -0500, Lou Berger wrote:
> 
> I defer to Chris on us of RPCs in general, but an interesting use case
> that is supported with RPCs is tag modification in RO modules.
>

No, you are simply hiding configuration data behind RPCs. Somewhere
the tags need to be stored.

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>


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Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org> wrote:
> 
> Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com> writes:
> > Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
> >> On Wed, Feb 08, 2017 at 01:22:01PM -0500, Christian Hopps wrote:
> >> >
> >> > The tags in the library and the tags in a module are updated at the same
> >> > time and represent logically the same list of tags. Its clear this
> >> > happens with an RPC. It seems a lot less clear this would (or should)
> >> > happen if one edited only once location.
> >>
> >> I am not convinced by the design. We have lots of other resources
> >> where we have configured and system determined values. I do not see
> >> that tags are any different.
> >
> > I agree.  *If* you want a config true datastructure, it should be
> > modified with the normal edit operations, not special RPCs.  There are
> > several reasons for this.  For example, how would your new RPCs interact
> > with locks?  With candidate?  With startup?
> 
> The point of already existing mechanisms and locks is somewhat
> compelling. Although this data is not very dynamic so it's hard to
> imagine locks coming into play, but the point is still taken.
> 
> So if the user changes the tags on a module using the module path can we
> just indicate that it would automatically also update in the yang
> library list?

Sure.

> We use a grouping that gets stamped inside a module and
> then we have another module define the yang library notation would we
> simply define the semantics in text and outside of yang?

In the description should work.

> It's easy for
> the module grouping to refer to the yang library but the reverse is not
> true.
> 
> > Also I am not sure it is a good idea to add configuration meta-data
> > that really should be common across all modules into the modules
> > themselves.  Another approach is to keep a separate list with the
> > tags, indexed by modulename and revision.
> 
> I don't understand what your getting at here. Are you referring to the
> grouping that gets used by a module author inside their module? The tags
> set for a given module are specific to that module only.

I meant that instead of using the grouping in every module, you could
have a separate structure in your module:

  container module-tags {
    list module {
      key "name revision";
      leaf name { ... }
      leaf revisoin { ...}
      leaf-list tag { ... }
    }
  }

This way you will handle configuration of tags for all modules, and
they don't have to have a special uses statement.


/martin

      


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Content-Type: text/plain

Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com> writes:
>> > Also I am not sure it is a good idea to add configuration meta-data
>> > that really should be common across all modules into the modules
>> > themselves.  Another approach is to keep a separate list with the
>> > tags, indexed by modulename and revision.
>>
>> I don't understand what your getting at here. Are you referring to the
>> grouping that gets used by a module author inside their module? The tags
>> set for a given module are specific to that module only.
>
> I meant that instead of using the grouping in every module, you could
> have a separate structure in your module:
>
>   container module-tags {
>     list module {
>       key "name revision";
>       leaf name { ... }
>       leaf revisoin { ...}
>       leaf-list tag { ... }
>     }
>   }
>
> This way you will handle configuration of tags for all modules, and
> they don't have to have a special uses statement.


The reason I went with the grouping and in-module list was that I
thought one could then create selecting xpath expressions, e.g.,

   get foobar-value[../tags="ietf:implements:foobar"]

I'm not sure if netconf supports this use of xpath directly, but one can
imagine other systems or protocols supporting it.

Thanks,
Chris.

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Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org> wrote:
> Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com> writes:
> >> > Also I am not sure it is a good idea to add configuration meta-data
> >> > that really should be common across all modules into the modules
> >> > themselves.  Another approach is to keep a separate list with the
> >> > tags, indexed by modulename and revision.
> >>
> >> I don't understand what your getting at here. Are you referring to the
> >> grouping that gets used by a module author inside their module? The tags
> >> set for a given module are specific to that module only.
> >
> > I meant that instead of using the grouping in every module, you could
> > have a separate structure in your module:
> >
> >   container module-tags {
> >     list module {
> >       key "name revision";
> >       leaf name { ... }
> >       leaf revisoin { ...}
> >       leaf-list tag { ... }
> >     }
> >   }
> >
> > This way you will handle configuration of tags for all modules, and
> > they don't have to have a special uses statement.
> 
> 
> The reason I went with the grouping and in-module list was that I
> thought one could then create selecting xpath expressions, e.g.,
> 
>    get foobar-value[../tags="ietf:implements:foobar"]

I'm not sure I understand what you're after, but I am pretty sure that
if it can be done with a per-module structure that you propose, then
it can also be done with a single structure.

Is the idea that you want to read a certain leaf in a certain module,
but only if that module has been dynamically tagged with a certain
tag?

> I'm not sure if netconf supports this use of xpath directly, but one can
> imagine other systems or protocols supporting it.

NETCONF does support XPath filtering.


/martin


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From: Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>
To: Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>
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Subject: Re: [netmod] Module tags
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--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/plain


Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com> writes:
> Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org> wrote:
>> The reason I went with the grouping and in-module list was that I
>> thought one could then create selecting xpath expressions, e.g.,
>>
>>    get foobar-value[../tags="ietf:implements:foobar"]
>
> I'm not sure I understand what you're after, but I am pretty sure that
> if it can be done with a per-module structure that you propose, then
> it can also be done with a single structure.
>
> Is the idea that you want to read a certain leaf in a certain module,
> but only if that module has been dynamically tagged with a certain
> tag?

Close, the idea was that I want to read all "foobar-value"s from all
modules that have that tag set.

>> I'm not sure if netconf supports this use of xpath directly, but one can
>> imagine other systems or protocols supporting it.
>
> NETCONF does support XPath filtering.

Yes, I'm aware of that, but I'm not sure if it supports the above
clarified idea which would use non-namespace "foobar-value" to fetch all
values along with an xpath check to see if a tag leaf-list contained a
tag value. I thought I read that netconf didn't support the latter at
least.

Thanks,
Chris.

>
>
> /martin

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From nobody Thu Feb  9 03:08:29 2017
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To: chopps@chopps.org
From: Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>
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Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org> wrote:
> 
> Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com> writes:
> > Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org> wrote:
> >> The reason I went with the grouping and in-module list was that I
> >> thought one could then create selecting xpath expressions, e.g.,
> >>
> >>    get foobar-value[../tags="ietf:implements:foobar"]
> >
> > I'm not sure I understand what you're after, but I am pretty sure that
> > if it can be done with a per-module structure that you propose, then
> > it can also be done with a single structure.
> >
> > Is the idea that you want to read a certain leaf in a certain module,
> > but only if that module has been dynamically tagged with a certain
> > tag?
> 
> Close, the idea was that I want to read all "foobar-value"s from all
> modules that have that tag set.

Ok. What is the use case?  It is probably not very common that
multiple modules have the exact same data structure defined.

> >> I'm not sure if netconf supports this use of xpath directly, but one can
> >> imagine other systems or protocols supporting it.
> >
> > NETCONF does support XPath filtering.
> 
> Yes, I'm aware of that, but I'm not sure if it supports the above
> clarified idea which would use non-namespace "foobar-value" to fetch all
> values along with an xpath check to see if a tag leaf-list contained a
> tag value. I thought I read that netconf didn't support the latter at
> least.

If it can be expressed in XPath 1.0, then NETCONF supports it.
Checking that a leaf-list contains a particular value is supported.


/martin


From nobody Thu Feb  9 04:19:57 2017
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--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/plain


Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com> writes:

> Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org> wrote:
>>
>> Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com> writes:
>> > Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org> wrote:
>> >> The reason I went with the grouping and in-module list was that I
>> >> thought one could then create selecting xpath expressions, e.g.,
>> >>
>> >>    get foobar-value[../tags="ietf:implements:foobar"]
>> >
>> > I'm not sure I understand what you're after, but I am pretty sure that
>> > if it can be done with a per-module structure that you propose, then
>> > it can also be done with a single structure.
>> >
>> > Is the idea that you want to read a certain leaf in a certain module,
>> > but only if that module has been dynamically tagged with a certain
>> > tag?
>>
>> Close, the idea was that I want to read all "foobar-value"s from all
>> modules that have that tag set.
>
> Ok. What is the use case?  It is probably not very common that
> multiple modules have the exact same data structure defined.

My example is fairly forward looking I guess. The key thing to note is:
"implements" in the tag name. The idea being that one has defined a
common structure (or interface) and then associated that interface with
a tag. Now a client can, with a single xpath expression, access a value
in all modules that implement that interface.

Thanks,
Chris.

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On February 9, 2017 7:20:22 AM Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org> wrote:

>
> Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com> writes:
>
>> Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com> writes:
>>> > Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org> wrote:
>>> >> The reason I went with the grouping and in-module list was that I
>>> >> thought one could then create selecting xpath expressions, e.g.,
>>> >>
>>> >>    get foobar-value[../tags="ietf:implements:foobar"]
>>> >
>>> > I'm not sure I understand what you're after, but I am pretty sure that
>>> > if it can be done with a per-module structure that you propose, then
>>> > it can also be done with a single structure.
>>> >
>>> > Is the idea that you want to read a certain leaf in a certain module,
>>> > but only if that module has been dynamically tagged with a certain
>>> > tag?
>>>
>>> Close, the idea was that I want to read all "foobar-value"s from all
>>> modules that have that tag set.
>>
>> Ok. What is the use case?  It is probably not very common that
>> multiple modules have the exact same data structure defined.
>
> My example is fairly forward looking I guess. The key thing to note is:
> "implements" in the tag name. The idea being that one has defined a
> common structure (or interface) and then associated that interface with
> a tag. Now a client can, with a single xpath expression, access a value
> in all modules that implement that interface.
>

I'm personally more excited by the use of tags as additional module 
meta-data accessible via yang library. But also see no reason to preclude 
this possible  (even if unlikely) usage.

Lou


> Thanks,
> Chris.



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To: Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>, Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
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Subject: Re: [netmod] Augmenting an unimplemented module
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Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org> writes:

> Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> writes:
>
>> On Fri, Feb 03, 2017 at 08:40:06AM -0500, Christian Hopps wrote:
>>>
>>> Is it allowed for a server to implement a module that augments another
>>> module that it does not implement? My thinking was that the augment
>>> would simply not be implemented in this case. Is that true or must the
>>> server implement any and all augmented modules referenced by a module?
>>>
>>
>> There are modules that only consists of augmentations. It would be
>> really odd if an implementation claims to have implemented such a
>> module without implementing the module that has been augmented.  For
>> example, it would be odd to claim an implementation of ietf-ip without
>> implementing ietf-interfaces.
>>
>> I think the proper thing to do is to write explicit deviations if a
>> portion of a module is not implemented (regardless whether the portion
>> is an augmentation or not).
>
> Well sure it's odd for an augmenting only module. In my case I'm adding
> a feature to another module that is not required for my module to be
> useful. My module is quite simple, conversely the module it augments
> (yang library) isn't. I didn't want to force the implementer to have to
> implement yang library, but I do want to add to it if they do.
>
> In any case is there anything explicit in the standard to indicate that
> a deviation must be indicated if an augmented module is not present?

RFC 7950 says in sec. 5.6.5:

   If a server implements a module A that imports a module B, and A uses
   any node from B in an "augment" or "path" statement that the server
   supports, then the server MUST implement a revision of module B that
   has these nodes defined.  This is regardless of whether module B is
   imported by revision or not.

Lada

> Might be nice to have an ability to tag the augmentation as optional.
>
> Thanks,
> Chris.
>
>>
>> /js
> _______________________________________________
> netmod mailing list
> netmod@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod

-- 
Ladislav Lhotka, CZ.NIC Labs
PGP Key ID: 0xB8F92B08A9F76C67


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From: Rohit pobbathi <rohit.pobbathi@huawei.com>
To: "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>, "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Conflicting usage scenario for "invalid-value" error-tag between RFC 6241 & RFC 6020
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Subject: [netmod] Conflicting usage scenario for "invalid-value" error-tag between RFC 6241 & RFC 6020
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--_000_2730B0D5F3302249A30EBF0DAE96D4CB455E5B46DGGEMA503MBXchi_
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Hi,

Repeating a query about RFC Section conflict for the usage of error-tag usa=
ge during leaf data value mismatch in range/length/pattern.

RFC 6241 Appendix A.  NETCONF Error List - provides the below description f=
or "invalid-value" & "bad-element"
   error-tag:         invalid-value
   error-type:       protocol, application
   error-severity: error
   error-info:       none
   Description:    The request specifies an unacceptable value for one
                             or more parameters.

   error-tag:         bad-element
   error-type:       protocol, application
   error-severity: error
   error-info:        <bad-element> : name of the element w/ bad value
   Description:     An element value is not correct; e.g., wrong type,
                              out of range, pattern mismatch.

RFC 6020 Section 8.3.1.  Payload Parsing
   o  If a leaf data value does not match the type constraints for the
      leaf, including those defined in the type's "range", "length", and
      "pattern" properties, the server MUST reply with an
      "invalid-value" error-tag in the rpc-error, and with the error-
      app-tag and error-message associated with the constraint, if any
      exist.

For leaf data value mismatch in range/length/pattern there is conflict in t=
he error-tag suggested by RFC 6241 & RFC 6020.
Please confirm which is the right error-tag to be used in a standard Netcon=
f Server implementation.

Regards,
Rohit Pobbathi

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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:blue"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:blue">Repeating a query about R=
FC Section conflict for the usage of error-tag usage during
</span><b><span style=3D"color:black">leaf data value mismatch in range/len=
gth/pattern.</span></b><span style=3D"color:blue"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>RFC 6241 Appendix A.&nbsp; NETCONF Error List &#8=
211; provides the below description for &#8220;invalid-value&#8221; &amp; &=
#8220;bad-element&#8221;<o:p></o:p></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp; error-tag:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;invalid-value<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp; error-type:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nb=
sp;&nbsp;protocol, application<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp; error-severity: error<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp; error-info:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nb=
sp;&nbsp;none<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp; Description:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <span st=
yle=3D"color:blue">The request specifies an unacceptable value for one<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:blue">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;or mor=
e parameters.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:blue"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp; error-tag:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;bad-element<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp; error-type:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nb=
sp;&nbsp;protocol, application<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp; error-severity: error<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp; error-info:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&lt;bad-element&gt; : name of the element w/ bad value<o:p><=
/o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp; Description:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;<s=
pan style=3D"color:blue">An element value is not correct; e.g., wrong type,=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:blue">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
out of range, pattern mismatch.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:blue"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"color:black">RFC 6020 Section 8.3.=
1.&nbsp; Payload Parsing<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; If =
a leaf data value does not match the type constraints for the<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp; leaf, </span><span style=3D"color:red">including those defined in th=
e type's &quot;range&quot;, &quot;length&quot;, and<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:red">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp; &quot;pattern&quot; properties, the server MUST reply with an<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:red">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp; &quot;invalid-value&quot;</span><span style=3D"color:black"> error-tag=
 in the rpc-error, and with the error-<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp; app-tag and error-message associated with the constraint, if any<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp; exist.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"color:black">For leaf data value m=
ismatch in range/length/pattern there is conflict in the error-tag suggeste=
d by RFC 6241 &amp; RFC 6020.<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">Please confirm which is =
the right error-tag to be used in a standard Netconf Server implementation.=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">Regards,<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">Rohit Pobbathi<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From: Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>
To: Rohit pobbathi <rohit.pobbathi@huawei.com>, "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [netmod] Conflicting usage scenario for "invalid-value" error-tag between RFC 6241 & RFC 6020
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/mgQvwK3tTiHeCbbXTbxe7CjijhI>
Subject: Re: [netmod] Conflicting usage scenario for "invalid-value" error-tag between RFC 6241 & RFC 6020
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From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2017 13:36:20 -0800
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To: Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>
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Subject: Re: [netmod] Module tags
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On Wed, Feb 8, 2017 at 2:17 PM, Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com> wrote:

> Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org> wrote:
> >
> > Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com> writes:
> > > Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
> > >> On Wed, Feb 08, 2017 at 01:22:01PM -0500, Christian Hopps wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > The tags in the library and the tags in a module are updated at the
> same
> > >> > time and represent logically the same list of tags. Its clear this
> > >> > happens with an RPC. It seems a lot less clear this would (or
> should)
> > >> > happen if one edited only once location.
> > >>
> > >> I am not convinced by the design. We have lots of other resources
> > >> where we have configured and system determined values. I do not see
> > >> that tags are any different.
> > >
> > > I agree.  *If* you want a config true datastructure, it should be
> > > modified with the normal edit operations, not special RPCs.  There are
> > > several reasons for this.  For example, how would your new RPCs
> interact
> > > with locks?  With candidate?  With startup?
> >
> > The point of already existing mechanisms and locks is somewhat
> > compelling. Although this data is not very dynamic so it's hard to
> > imagine locks coming into play, but the point is still taken.
> >
> > So if the user changes the tags on a module using the module path can we
> > just indicate that it would automatically also update in the yang
> > library list?
>
> Sure.
>
> > We use a grouping that gets stamped inside a module and
> > then we have another module define the yang library notation would we
> > simply define the semantics in text and outside of yang?
>
> In the description should work.
>
> > It's easy for
> > the module grouping to refer to the yang library but the reverse is not
> > true.
> >
> > > Also I am not sure it is a good idea to add configuration meta-data
> > > that really should be common across all modules into the modules
> > > themselves.  Another approach is to keep a separate list with the
> > > tags, indexed by modulename and revision.
> >
> > I don't understand what your getting at here. Are you referring to the
> > grouping that gets used by a module author inside their module? The tags
> > set for a given module are specific to that module only.
>
> I meant that instead of using the grouping in every module, you could
> have a separate structure in your module:
>
>   container module-tags {
>     list module {
>       key "name revision";
>       leaf name { ... }
>       leaf revisoin { ...}
>       leaf-list tag { ... }
>     }
>   }
>
> This way you will handle configuration of tags for all modules, and
> they don't have to have a special uses statement.
>
>
+1.

I read the draft, and I agree with you that the single container solution
is best. Looks like configuration data to me, and no need for any special
case editing models.

Oddly, the draft relies on XPath filtering to retrieve modules with a
certain tag.
There is no <find-tags> operation.
That is the 1 RPC operation that might be justified.

e.g.:

  rpc find-tags {
    description "find all modules with the specified tag(s).";
     input {
       leaf-list tag { type string; }
     }
     output {
       leaf-list module-name { type string; }
     }
   }


> /martin
>
>
>
>
Andy


> _______________________________________________
> netmod mailing list
> netmod@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
>

--001a114a91b27fd6dc054833e3fa
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Wed, Feb 8, 2017 at 2:17 PM, Martin Bjorklund <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:mbj@tail-f.com" target=3D"_blank">mbj@tail-f.com</a>&gt;<=
/span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8=
ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Christian Hopps &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:chopps@chopps.org">chopps@chopps.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Martin Bjorklund &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mbj@tail-f.com">mbj@tail-f.com<=
/a>&gt; writes:<br>
&gt; &gt; Juergen Schoenwaelder &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacob=
s-university.de">j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-<wbr>university.de</a>&gt; wrote:<b=
r>
&gt; &gt;&gt; On Wed, Feb 08, 2017 at 01:22:01PM -0500, Christian Hopps wro=
te:<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; The tags in the library and the tags in a module are upd=
ated at the same<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; time and represent logically the same list of tags. Its =
clear this<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; happens with an RPC. It seems a lot less clear this woul=
d (or should)<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; happen if one edited only once location.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; I am not convinced by the design. We have lots of other resou=
rces<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; where we have configured and system determined values. I do n=
ot see<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; that tags are any different.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; I agree.=C2=A0 *If* you want a config true datastructure, it shou=
ld be<br>
&gt; &gt; modified with the normal edit operations, not special RPCs.=C2=A0=
 There are<br>
&gt; &gt; several reasons for this.=C2=A0 For example, how would your new R=
PCs interact<br>
&gt; &gt; with locks?=C2=A0 With candidate?=C2=A0 With startup?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; The point of already existing mechanisms and locks is somewhat<br>
&gt; compelling. Although this data is not very dynamic so it&#39;s hard to=
<br>
&gt; imagine locks coming into play, but the point is still taken.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; So if the user changes the tags on a module using the module path can =
we<br>
&gt; just indicate that it would automatically also update in the yang<br>
&gt; library list?<br>
<br>
Sure.<br>
<br>
&gt; We use a grouping that gets stamped inside a module and<br>
&gt; then we have another module define the yang library notation would we<=
br>
&gt; simply define the semantics in text and outside of yang?<br>
<br>
In the description should work.<br>
<br>
&gt; It&#39;s easy for<br>
&gt; the module grouping to refer to the yang library but the reverse is no=
t<br>
&gt; true.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Also I am not sure it is a good idea to add configuration meta-da=
ta<br>
&gt; &gt; that really should be common across all modules into the modules<=
br>
&gt; &gt; themselves.=C2=A0 Another approach is to keep a separate list wit=
h the<br>
&gt; &gt; tags, indexed by modulename and revision.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I don&#39;t understand what your getting at here. Are you referring to=
 the<br>
&gt; grouping that gets used by a module author inside their module? The ta=
gs<br>
&gt; set for a given module are specific to that module only.<br>
<br>
I meant that instead of using the grouping in every module, you could<br>
have a separate structure in your module:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 container module-tags {<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 list module {<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 key &quot;name revision&quot;;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 leaf name { ... }<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 leaf revisoin { ...}<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 leaf-list tag { ... }<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 }<br>
=C2=A0 }<br>
<br>
This way you will handle configuration of tags for all modules, and<br>
they don&#39;t have to have a special uses statement.<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>+1.</div><div><br></div><div>I read th=
e draft, and I agree with you that the single container solution</div><div>=
is best. Looks like configuration data to me, and no need for any special</=
div><div>case editing models.</div><div><br></div><div>Oddly, the draft rel=
ies on XPath filtering to retrieve modules with a certain tag.</div><div>Th=
ere is no &lt;find-tags&gt; operation.</div><div>That is the 1 RPC operatio=
n that might be justified.</div><div><br></div><div>e.g.:</div><div><br></d=
iv><div>=C2=A0 rpc find-tags {</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 description &quot;fi=
nd all modules with the specified tag(s).&quot;;</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0input {</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0leaf-list tag { type str=
ing; }</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0output=
 {</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0leaf-list module-name { type string=
; }</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0}</div><div><br>=
</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-l=
eft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
/martin<br>
<br>
<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Andy</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote=
 class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc soli=
d;padding-left:1ex">
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
netmod mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:netmod@ietf.org">netmod@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod" rel=3D"noreferrer"=
 target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/netmod</a><br=
>
</blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--001a114a91b27fd6dc054833e3fa--


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--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/plain


Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com> writes:
> On Wed, Feb 8, 2017 at 2:17 PM, Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com> wrote:
>      I meant that instead of using the grouping in every module, you could
>      have a separate structure in your module:
>
>       container module-tags {
>        list module {
>         key "name revision";
>         leaf name { ... }
>         leaf revisoin { ...}
>         leaf-list tag { ... }
>        }
>       }
>
>      This way you will handle configuration of tags for all modules, and
>      they don't have to have a special uses statement.
>
>
> +1.
>
> I read the draft, and I agree with you that the single container solution
> is best. Looks like configuration data to me, and no need for any special
> case editing models.

We do get this with the yang library augmentation I believe. I hope
the yang library will be implemented by most servers. Do you think this
is not sufficient?

Again the in module list allows for single xpath selection of a given
node for all modules that have a certain tag set. I found this rather
elegant, so that's why I've argued to keep it. I want to make sure that
people have considered this before we abandon it.

I'm OK with removing the add/delete RPCs as they do seem redundant.

Is there a way to get the reset to default behavior? We do allow the
user to remove default set tags, so I think that's why Lou added that
RPC.

> Oddly, the draft relies on XPath filtering to retrieve modules with a certain tag.
> There is no <find-tags> operation.
> That is the 1 RPC operation that might be justified.
>
> e.g.:
>
>  rpc find-tags {
>   description "find all modules with the specified tag(s).";
>   input {
>    leaf-list tag { type string; }
>   }
>   output {
>    leaf-list module-name { type string; }
>   }
>  }

This does seem useful, we can add it.

Thanks,
Chris.

--=-=-=
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--=-=-=--


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From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
To: Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>
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On Sat, Feb 11, 2017 at 07:52:23AM -0500, Christian Hopps wrote:
> 
> Again the in module list allows for single xpath selection of a given
> node for all modules that have a certain tag set. I found this rather
> elegant, so that's why I've argued to keep it. I want to make sure that
> people have considered this before we abandon it.

Can you point me to a set of modules and a concrete query where this
makes sense? I am like Martin not yet convinced that there is a use
case for this.

> Is there a way to get the reset to default behavior? We do allow the
> user to remove default set tags, so I think that's why Lou added that
> RPC.

Note sure whether this (removing of non-configured tags) is a good
idea. Again, concrete use cases might help to make the point.

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>


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Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org> wrote:
> 
> Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com> writes:
> > On Wed, Feb 8, 2017 at 2:17 PM, Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com> wrote:
> >      I meant that instead of using the grouping in every module, you could
> >      have a separate structure in your module:
> >
> >       container module-tags {
> >        list module {
> >         key "name revision";
> >         leaf name { ... }
> >         leaf revisoin { ...}
> >         leaf-list tag { ... }
> >        }
> >       }
> >
> >      This way you will handle configuration of tags for all modules, and
> >      they don't have to have a special uses statement.
> >
> >
> > +1.
> >
> > I read the draft, and I agree with you that the single container solution
> > is best. Looks like configuration data to me, and no need for any special
> > case editing models.
> 
> We do get this with the yang library augmentation I believe. I hope
> the yang library will be implemented by most servers. Do you think this
> is not sufficient?

The augmentation of yang-library is not sufficient b/c it is config
false only.  That's why a separate config list is also needed.

> Again the in module list allows for single xpath selection of a given
> node for all modules that have a certain tag set. I found this rather
> elegant, so that's why I've argued to keep it. I want to make sure that
> people have considered this before we abandon it.

Just to be clear, the use case is only for the case where several
different modules implement the exact same structure, right?  Do you
have any example where this is the case?  Or maybe I didn't understand
the use case; if so, could you provide a more complete use case?


> I'm OK with removing the add/delete RPCs as they do seem redundant.
> 
> Is there a way to get the reset to default behavior? We do allow the
> user to remove default set tags, so I think that's why Lou added that
> RPC.

I assume that reset to default would be to remove all configured tags
from the config.  If so that is clearly supported.


> 
> > Oddly, the draft relies on XPath filtering to retrieve modules with a certain tag.
> > There is no <find-tags> operation.
> > That is the 1 RPC operation that might be justified.
> >
> > e.g.:
> >
> >  rpc find-tags {
> >   description "find all modules with the specified tag(s).";
> >   input {
> >    leaf-list tag { type string; }
> >   }
> >   output {
> >    leaf-list module-name { type string; }
> >   }
> >  }
> 
> This does seem useful, we can add it.

But this is an XPath one-liner:

  /modules-state/modules/name[../module-tag = 'foo']



/martin


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From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2017 12:05:20 -0800
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To: Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>
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Cc: "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [netmod] Module tags
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On Sat, Feb 11, 2017 at 8:32 AM, Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com> wrote:

> Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org> wrote:
> >
> > Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com> writes:
> > > On Wed, Feb 8, 2017 at 2:17 PM, Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>
> wrote:
> > >      I meant that instead of using the grouping in every module, you
> could
> > >      have a separate structure in your module:
> > >
> > >       container module-tags {
> > >        list module {
> > >         key "name revision";
> > >         leaf name { ... }
> > >         leaf revisoin { ...}
> > >         leaf-list tag { ... }
> > >        }
> > >       }
> > >
> > >      This way you will handle configuration of tags for all modules,
> and
> > >      they don't have to have a special uses statement.
> > >
> > >
> > > +1.
> > >
> > > I read the draft, and I agree with you that the single container
> solution
> > > is best. Looks like configuration data to me, and no need for any
> special
> > > case editing models.
> >
> > We do get this with the yang library augmentation I believe. I hope
> > the yang library will be implemented by most servers. Do you think this
> > is not sufficient?
>
> The augmentation of yang-library is not sufficient b/c it is config
> false only.  That's why a separate config list is also needed.
>


So what would qualify as the corresponding configuration that would
warrant the creation of the /modules subtree?  How many different subtrees
of configuration do we need per module-name/revision pair?



>
> > Again the in module list allows for single xpath selection of a given
> > node for all modules that have a certain tag set. I found this rather
> > elegant, so that's why I've argued to keep it. I want to make sure that
> > people have considered this before we abandon it.
>
> Just to be clear, the use case is only for the case where several
> different modules implement the exact same structure, right?  Do you
> have any example where this is the case?  Or maybe I didn't understand
> the use case; if so, could you provide a more complete use case?
>
>
> > I'm OK with removing the add/delete RPCs as they do seem redundant.
> >
> > Is there a way to get the reset to default behavior? We do allow the
> > user to remove default set tags, so I think that's why Lou added that
> > RPC.
>
> I assume that reset to default would be to remove all configured tags
> from the config.  If so that is clearly supported.
>
>
> >
> > > Oddly, the draft relies on XPath filtering to retrieve modules with a
> certain tag.
> > > There is no <find-tags> operation.
> > > That is the 1 RPC operation that might be justified.
> > >
> > > e.g.:
> > >
> > >  rpc find-tags {
> > >   description "find all modules with the specified tag(s).";
> > >   input {
> > >    leaf-list tag { type string; }
> > >   }
> > >   output {
> > >    leaf-list module-name { type string; }
> > >   }
> > >  }
> >
> > This does seem useful, we can add it.
>
> But this is an XPath one-liner:
>
>   /modules-state/modules/name[../module-tag = 'foo']
>


XPath is optional to implement, but I agree this is not an important
feature.

I actually question the usability of per-module tags.
I do not think it will be granular enough for selection of yang-push
content (for example).

I suggested a YANG module called topic.yang last December:
https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netconf/current/msg12006.html

IMO the tagging needs to be on schema tree, not the module-set.
See the 'topic-maps' container below.  I made it config false
but it could be config true instead.

I also do not like relying on conventions instead of deterministic rules.
Use of identityref in topic.yang is fully distributed, but without requiring
any prefix strings to be assigned in advance and maintained.

(from attachment to msg above)
module topic {
  namespace "urn:test:topic";
  prefix top;

  import filter { prefix fil; }

  revision 2016-12-01;

  extension event-topic {
    argument id;
    description
      "An extension to map a schema node to a specific topic
       identifier. An rpc, notification, action, or data-def
       statement containing this external statement is mapped
       to the event-topic identity represented by the 'id'
       parameter.

       The syntax of the 'id' argument is the identityref
       data type.

       Example:

         container example-vpn {
           top:event-topic 'example:vpn-event';
           ...
         }
         container example-vpn-state {
           top:event-topic 'example:vpn-event';
           ...
         }
         notification example-vpn-event {
           top:event-topic 'example:vpn-event';
           ...
         }
      ";
  }

  identity topic-filter {
    base fil:filter-type;
    description
      "Filter type identifier for topic filters.";
  }

  identity topic-id {
    description
      "Base identity from which topic identifiers are derived.";
  }

  /********************************
     example topic subtree

    + topic-id
      |
      + service-topic
        |
        + routing-topic
          |
          + bgp-topic
          |
          + isis-topic

  **********************************/

  identity service-topic {
    base topic-id;
    description
      "Base identity from which service-related topic identifiers
        are derived.";
  }

  identity routing-topic {
    base service-topic;
    description
      "Base identity from which routing related topic identifiers
        are derived.";
  }

  identity bgp-topic {
    base routing-topic;
    description
      "Base identity from which BGP related topic identifiers
        are derived.";
  }

  identity isis-topic {
    base routing-topic;
    description
      "Base identity from which IS-IS related topic identifiers
        are derived.";
  }

  container topic-maps {
    config false;
    description
      "The set of topic-id to schema node mappings used by
       the server";

    list topic-map {
      key "id node";
      leaf id {
        type identityref {
          base topic-id;
        }
        description "The topic identifier for this mapping";
      }
      leaf node {
        type string; // really schema-node-identifier from 6535bis
        description "The schema node for this mapping";
      }
    }
  }

  augment "/fil:filters/fil:filter" {
    when "derived-from-or-self(fil:type, 'top:topic-filter')";

    description "Set of topic filter parameters";

    leaf-list topic-filter {
      type identityref {
        base topic-id;
      }
      description
        "Identifies a topic that is included in the
         subscription. Multiple instances represent a
         logical AND expression. Each topic-filter
         instance must evaluate to 'true' in order for
         the subscription to accept the event.

         A topic matches the filter if there is at least one
         topic-id associated with the event node or notification
         that is derived from or equal to the topic-filter value.";
    }
  }

}





>
>
>
> /martin
>


Andy

--f403045e9ec4e6ce9a054846bbf2
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Sat, Feb 11, 2017 at 8:32 AM, Martin Bjorklund <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:mbj@tail-f.com" target=3D"_blank">mbj@tail-f.com</a>&gt;=
</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px=
 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Christi=
an Hopps &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:chopps@chopps.org">chopps@chopps.org</a>&gt;=
 wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Andy Bierman &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andy@yumaworks.com">andy@yumaworks.=
com</a>&gt; writes:<br>
&gt; &gt; On Wed, Feb 8, 2017 at 2:17 PM, Martin Bjorklund &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:mbj@tail-f.com">mbj@tail-f.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I meant that instead of using the grouping in=
 every module, you could<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 have a separate structure in your module:<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0container module-tags {<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 list module {<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0key &quot;name revision&quot;;<b=
r>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0leaf name { ... }<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0leaf revisoin { ...}<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0leaf-list tag { ... }<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 }<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 This way you will handle configuration of tag=
s for all modules, and<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 they don&#39;t have to have a special uses st=
atement.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; +1.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; I read the draft, and I agree with you that the single container =
solution<br>
&gt; &gt; is best. Looks like configuration data to me, and no need for any=
 special<br>
&gt; &gt; case editing models.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; We do get this with the yang library augmentation I believe. I hope<br=
>
&gt; the yang library will be implemented by most servers. Do you think thi=
s<br>
&gt; is not sufficient?<br>
<br>
The augmentation of yang-library is not sufficient b/c it is config<br>
false only.=C2=A0 That&#39;s why a separate config list is also needed.<br>=
</blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>So what would qualify as th=
e corresponding configuration that would</div><div>warrant the creation of =
the /modules subtree?=C2=A0 How many different subtrees</div><div>of config=
uration do we need per module-name/revision pair?</div><div><br></div><div>=
=C2=A0<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0=
px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
&gt; Again the in module list allows for single xpath selection of a given<=
br>
&gt; node for all modules that have a certain tag set. I found this rather<=
br>
&gt; elegant, so that&#39;s why I&#39;ve argued to keep it. I want to make =
sure that<br>
&gt; people have considered this before we abandon it.<br>
<br>
Just to be clear, the use case is only for the case where several<br>
different modules implement the exact same structure, right?=C2=A0 Do you<b=
r>
have any example where this is the case?=C2=A0 Or maybe I didn&#39;t unders=
tand<br>
the use case; if so, could you provide a more complete use case?<br>
<br>
<br>
&gt; I&#39;m OK with removing the add/delete RPCs as they do seem redundant=
.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Is there a way to get the reset to default behavior? We do allow the<b=
r>
&gt; user to remove default set tags, so I think that&#39;s why Lou added t=
hat<br>
&gt; RPC.<br>
<br>
I assume that reset to default would be to remove all configured tags<br>
from the config.=C2=A0 If so that is clearly supported.<br>
<br>
<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Oddly, the draft relies on XPath filtering to retrieve modules wi=
th a certain tag.<br>
&gt; &gt; There is no &lt;find-tags&gt; operation.<br>
&gt; &gt; That is the 1 RPC operation that might be justified.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; e.g.:<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 rpc find-tags {<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0description &quot;find all modules with the specified=
 tag(s).&quot;;<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0input {<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 leaf-list tag { type string; }<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0}<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0output {<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 leaf-list module-name { type string; }<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0}<br>
&gt; &gt;=C2=A0 }<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; This does seem useful, we can add it.<br>
<br>
But this is an XPath one-liner:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 /modules-state/modules/name[..<wbr>/module-tag =3D &#39;foo&#39;]<br=
></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>XPath is optional to imple=
ment, but I agree this is not an important feature.</div><div><br></div><di=
v>I actually question the usability of per-module tags.</div><div>I do not =
think it will be granular enough for selection of yang-push content (for ex=
ample).</div><div><br></div><div>I suggested a YANG module called topic.yan=
g last December:</div><div><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web=
/netconf/current/msg12006.html">https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netco=
nf/current/msg12006.html</a></div><div><br></div><div>IMO the tagging needs=
 to be on schema tree, not the module-set.</div><div>See the &#39;topic-map=
s&#39; container below.=C2=A0 I made it config false</div><div>but it could=
 be config true instead.</div><div><br></div><div>I also do not like relyin=
g on conventions instead of deterministic rules.</div><div>Use of identityr=
ef in topic.yang is fully distributed, but without requiring</div><div>any =
prefix strings to be assigned in advance and maintained.</div><div><br></di=
v><div>(from attachment to msg above)</div><div><div>module topic {</div><d=
iv>=C2=A0 namespace &quot;urn:test:topic&quot;;</div><div>=C2=A0 prefix top=
;</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 import filter { prefix fil; }</div><div><=
br></div><div>=C2=A0 revision 2016-12-01;</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 e=
xtension event-topic {</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 argument id;</div><div>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 description</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;An extension to=
 map a schema node to a specific topic</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0identifier. An rpc, notification, action, or data-def</div><div>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0statement containing this external statement is mapped<=
/div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to the event-topic identity represente=
d by the &#39;id&#39;</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0parameter.</div>=
<div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The syntax of the &#39;id&#3=
9; argument is the identityref</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0data ty=
pe.</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Example:</div><div>=
<br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0container example-vpn {</d=
iv><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0top:event-topic &#39;examp=
le:vpn-event&#39;;</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0...</=
div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0container example-vpn-state {</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0top:event-topic &#39;example:vpn-event&#39;;</div><div>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0...</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0notification ex=
ample-vpn-event {</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0top:ev=
ent-topic &#39;example:vpn-event&#39;;</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0...</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0}</div><di=
v>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;;</div><div>=C2=A0 }</div><div><br></div><div>=
=C2=A0 identity topic-filter {</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 base fil:filter-type=
;</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 description</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;=
Filter type identifier for topic filters.&quot;;</div><div>=C2=A0 }</div><d=
iv><br></div><div>=C2=A0 identity topic-id {</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 descri=
ption</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;Base identity from which topic i=
dentifiers are derived.&quot;;</div><div>=C2=A0 }</div><div><br></div><div>=
=C2=A0 /********************************</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0exam=
ple topic subtree</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 + topic-id</div><d=
iv>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 + service-topic</d=
iv><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 + routing-topic</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |</div><div>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 + bgp-topic</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 + isis-top=
ic</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 **********************************/</div=
><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 identity service-topic {</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 base topic-id;</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 description</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;Base identity from which service-related topic identifiers=
</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 are derived.&quot;;</div><div>=C2=A0=
 }</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 identity routing-topic {</div><div>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 base service-topic;</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 description</div><di=
v>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;Base identity from which routing related topic=
 identifiers</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 are derived.&quot;;</div=
><div>=C2=A0 }</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 identity bgp-topic {</div><d=
iv>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 base routing-topic;</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 description</d=
iv><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;Base identity from which BGP related top=
ic identifiers</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 are derived.&quot;;</d=
iv><div>=C2=A0 }</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 identity isis-topic {</div=
><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 base routing-topic;</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 description=
</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;Base identity from which IS-IS relate=
d topic identifiers</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 are derived.&quot=
;;</div><div>=C2=A0 }</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 container topic-maps =
{</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 config false;</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 description=
</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;The set of topic-id to schema node ma=
ppings used by</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the server&quot;;</div>=
<div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 list topic-map {</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 key &quot;id node&quot;;</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 leaf id {</d=
iv><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 type identityref {</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 base topic-id;</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 }</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 description &quot;The topic ide=
ntifier for this mapping&quot;;</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 }</div><div>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 leaf node {</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 type=
 string; // really schema-node-identifier from 6535bis</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 description &quot;The schema node for this mapping&quot;;=
</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 }</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 }</div><div>=C2=
=A0 }</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 augment &quot;/fil:filters/fil:filter=
&quot; {</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 when &quot;derived-from-or-self(fil:type, =
&#39;top:topic-filter&#39;)&quot;;</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 d=
escription &quot;Set of topic filter parameters&quot;;</div><div><br></div>=
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 leaf-list topic-filter {</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
type identityref {</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 base topic-id;</di=
v><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 }</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 description</d=
iv><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;Identifies a topic that is includ=
ed in the</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0subscription. Multipl=
e instances represent a</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0logical=
 AND expression. Each topic-filter</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0instance must evaluate to &#39;true&#39; in order for</div><div>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the subscription to accept the event.</div><=
div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0A topic matches the fi=
lter if there is at least one</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0t=
opic-id associated with the event node or notification</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0that is derived from or equal to the topic-filter v=
alue.&quot;;</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 }</div><div>=C2=A0 }</div><div><br></d=
iv><div>}</div></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>=C2=
=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8e=
x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<span class=3D"gmail-HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
<br>
<br>
/martin<br></font></span></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>An=
dy</div><div>=C2=A0</div></div><br></div></div>

--f403045e9ec4e6ce9a054846bbf2--


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From: Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>
To: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
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Subject: Re: [netmod] Module tags
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--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/plain


Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> writes:

> On Sat, Feb 11, 2017 at 07:52:23AM -0500, Christian Hopps wrote:
>>
>> Again the in module list allows for single xpath selection of a given
>> node for all modules that have a certain tag set. I found this rather
>> elegant, so that's why I've argued to keep it. I want to make sure that
>> people have considered this before we abandon it.
>
> Can you point me to a set of modules and a concrete query where this
> makes sense? I am like Martin not yet convinced that there is a use
> case for this.

I gave the example of something that implements a common interface. So
for example most IGP routing protocols have hello timers. One could
imagine an "ietf:implements:hello-timer" (or whatever) tag. This type of
thing is used to avoid the use of multiple-inheritance in OOP. It could
serve a similar purpose with yang (although in this case it avoids having
to factor all commonality out into tiny modules).

I don't know if this would develop organically or not, but I do know
having a central list eliminates the option. Why choose the option with
less capabilities?

>> Is there a way to get the reset to default behavior? We do allow the
>> user to remove default set tags, so I think that's why Lou added that
>> RPC.
>
> Note sure whether this (removing of non-configured tags) is a good
> idea. Again, concrete use cases might help to make the point.

I do want to support tag removal. The most obvious case for tags is for
operator use, and the resulting tag set for any module should be under
the control of the operator. A use case would be that some server has a bug
in their implementation and the admin wants to remove it from possible
use. I'd ask the reverse question, why take this control away from the
operator?

Thanks,
Chris.

>
> /js

--=-=-=
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From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
To: Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>
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On Sun, Feb 12, 2017 at 04:42:22AM -0500, Christian Hopps wrote:
> 
> > Can you point me to a set of modules and a concrete query where this
> > makes sense? I am like Martin not yet convinced that there is a use
> > case for this.
> 
> I gave the example of something that implements a common interface. So
> for example most IGP routing protocols have hello timers. One could
> imagine an "ietf:implements:hello-timer" (or whatever) tag. This type of
> thing is used to avoid the use of multiple-inheritance in OOP. It could
> serve a similar purpose with yang (although in this case it avoids having
> to factor all commonality out into tiny modules).
> 
> I don't know if this would develop organically or not, but I do know
> having a central list eliminates the option. Why choose the option with
> less capabilities?

I am asking for a concrete example. Assuming that modules will have a
common structure and naming inside is IMHO wishful thinking. Show me a
concrete example please using existing modules.

> >> Is there a way to get the reset to default behavior? We do allow the
> >> user to remove default set tags, so I think that's why Lou added that
> >> RPC.
> >
> > Note sure whether this (removing of non-configured tags) is a good
> > idea. Again, concrete use cases might help to make the point.
> 
> I do want to support tag removal. The most obvious case for tags is for
> operator use, and the resulting tag set for any module should be under
> the control of the operator. A use case would be that some server has a bug
> in their implementation and the admin wants to remove it from possible
> use. I'd ask the reverse question, why take this control away from the
> operator?

I am trying to understand the use case. If you are unhappy with the
default tags, why not add your own tags? This way, the operator has
full control over his tag space.

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>


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--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/plain

a
Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> writes:

> On Sun, Feb 12, 2017 at 04:42:22AM -0500, Christian Hopps wrote:
>>
>> > Can you point me to a set of modules and a concrete query where this
>> > makes sense? I am like Martin not yet convinced that there is a use
>> > case for this.
>>
>> I gave the example of something that implements a common interface. So
>> for example most IGP routing protocols have hello timers. One could
>> imagine an "ietf:implements:hello-timer" (or whatever) tag. This type of
>> thing is used to avoid the use of multiple-inheritance in OOP. It could
>> serve a similar purpose with yang (although in this case it avoids having
>> to factor all commonality out into tiny modules).
>>
>> I don't know if this would develop organically or not, but I do know
>> having a central list eliminates the option. Why choose the option with
>> less capabilities?
>
> I am asking for a concrete example. Assuming that modules will have a
> common structure and naming inside is IMHO wishful thinking. Show me a
> concrete example please using existing modules.

I did give an example: IGP hello timers. I feel it's unreasonable to
expect me to be more concrete with existing modules when we are talking
about creating a feature that would make commonality useful (!)

There are IGP models, they have common hello timers, the fact that these
are placed in a common area simply has to do with the fact that there
was no gain in doing so.

I've offered I think a valid use case that is well excepted and present
in other areas of computer science, your saying no-one is doing this now
with yang. To me that's like having java without the interface
statement and then asking to be shown actual java code using the
non-existent interface statement. There are yang models with common
factorable structure now, I've given an example. If that's not enough I
don't know what else I can do.

>> >> Is there a way to get the reset to default behavior? We do allow the
>> >> user to remove default set tags, so I think that's why Lou added that
>> >> RPC.
>> >
>> > Note sure whether this (removing of non-configured tags) is a good
>> > idea. Again, concrete use cases might help to make the point.
>>
>> I do want to support tag removal. The most obvious case for tags is for
>> operator use, and the resulting tag set for any module should be under
>> the control of the operator. A use case would be that some server has a bug
>> in their implementation and the admin wants to remove it from possible
>> use. I'd ask the reverse question, why take this control away from the
>> operator?
>
> I am trying to understand the use case. If you are unhappy with the
> default tags, why not add your own tags? This way, the operator has
> full control over his tag space.

A model on a server is buggy for some tagged feature, I want to remove
that tag from it on that server. Your suggesting rather than me be in
control and simply remove that tag from that server, I need to not use
that tag at all in all of my network, and instead create a new tag that
I add to all the functional servers in my network leaving it off this
single server.

Again why is this a big deal? What are you gaining by not allowing the
removal of tags? As an operator I'm certainly losing something.

> /js

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Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com> writes:
> Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org> wrote:


> The augmentation of yang-library is not sufficient b/c it is config
> false only.  That's why a separate config list is also needed.

Or an in-module config:true list of tags, but yes, your right.

>
>> Again the in module list allows for single xpath selection of a given
>> node for all modules that have a certain tag set. I found this rather
>> elegant, so that's why I've argued to keep it. I want to make sure that
>> people have considered this before we abandon it.
>
> Just to be clear, the use case is only for the case where several
> different modules implement the exact same structure, right?  Do you
> have any example where this is the case?  Or maybe I didn't understand
> the use case; if so, could you provide a more complete use case?

In another thread I gave the example of IGP hello timers. The xpaths
currently are exactly the same, but without a way (e.g., tagging interfaces)
to make use of the commonality one wouldn't expect the commonality to have
grown organically I don't think. Also, if I'm not mistaken, even the
xpaths don't have to be exactly the same if one uses regular
expressions, just the final node names.

>> I'm OK with removing the add/delete RPCs as they do seem redundant.
>>
>> Is there a way to get the reset to default behavior? We do allow the
>> user to remove default set tags, so I think that's why Lou added that
>> RPC.
>
> I assume that reset to default would be to remove all configured tags
> from the config.  If so that is clearly supported.

It would also put back any default tags that had been removed. In any
case I was just curious if it was possible. The reset RPC would still
have the issues with doing an end-run around the normal config
operations so I'm fine with removing it as well.

>> > Oddly, the draft relies on XPath filtering to retrieve modules with a certain tag.
>> > There is no <find-tags> operation.
>> > That is the 1 RPC operation that might be justified.
>> >
>> > e.g.:
>> >
>> >  rpc find-tags {
>> >   description "find all modules with the specified tag(s).";
>> >   input {
>> >    leaf-list tag { type string; }
>> >   }
>> >   output {
>> >    leaf-list module-name { type string; }
>> >   }
>> >  }
>>
>> This does seem useful, we can add it.
>
> But this is an XPath one-liner:
>
>   /modules-state/modules/name[../module-tag = 'foo']

Yes, xpath is nice that way. :) I figured the RPC was useful in the case
that xpath wasn't supported.

Thanks,
Chris.

> /martin

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On Sun, Feb 12, 2017 at 05:59:40AM -0500, Christian Hopps wrote:
> a
> Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> writes:
> 
> > On Sun, Feb 12, 2017 at 04:42:22AM -0500, Christian Hopps wrote:
> >>
> >> > Can you point me to a set of modules and a concrete query where this
> >> > makes sense? I am like Martin not yet convinced that there is a use
> >> > case for this.
> >>
> >> I gave the example of something that implements a common interface. So
> >> for example most IGP routing protocols have hello timers. One could
> >> imagine an "ietf:implements:hello-timer" (or whatever) tag. This type of
> >> thing is used to avoid the use of multiple-inheritance in OOP. It could
> >> serve a similar purpose with yang (although in this case it avoids having
> >> to factor all commonality out into tiny modules).
> >>
> >> I don't know if this would develop organically or not, but I do know
> >> having a central list eliminates the option. Why choose the option with
> >> less capabilities?
> >
> > I am asking for a concrete example. Assuming that modules will have a
> > common structure and naming inside is IMHO wishful thinking. Show me a
> > concrete example please using existing modules.
> 
> I did give an example: IGP hello timers. I feel it's unreasonable to
> expect me to be more concrete with existing modules when we are talking
> about creating a feature that would make commonality useful (!)
> 
> There are IGP models, they have common hello timers, the fact that these
> are placed in a common area simply has to do with the fact that there
> was no gain in doing so.
> 
> I've offered I think a valid use case that is well excepted and present
> in other areas of computer science, your saying no-one is doing this now
> with yang. To me that's like having java without the interface
> statement and then asking to be shown actual java code using the
> non-existent interface statement. There are yang models with common
> factorable structure now, I've given an example. If that's not enough I
> don't know what else I can do.

Sorry, a bunch of tags and an expectation of authors doing things in a
common way does not give you Java interfaces. I remain unconvinced and
there is no requirement that we agree on this use case being
realistic.  At least you seem to agree that for existing modules this
is not terribly useful and that future modules would have to follow
certain conventions to make things useful.

> >> >> Is there a way to get the reset to default behavior? We do allow the
> >> >> user to remove default set tags, so I think that's why Lou added that
> >> >> RPC.
> >> >
> >> > Note sure whether this (removing of non-configured tags) is a good
> >> > idea. Again, concrete use cases might help to make the point.
> >>
> >> I do want to support tag removal. The most obvious case for tags is for
> >> operator use, and the resulting tag set for any module should be under
> >> the control of the operator. A use case would be that some server has a bug
> >> in their implementation and the admin wants to remove it from possible
> >> use. I'd ask the reverse question, why take this control away from the
> >> operator?
> >
> > I am trying to understand the use case. If you are unhappy with the
> > default tags, why not add your own tags? This way, the operator has
> > full control over his tag space.
> 
> A model on a server is buggy for some tagged feature, I want to remove
> that tag from it on that server. Your suggesting rather than me be in
> control and simply remove that tag from that server, I need to not use
> that tag at all in all of my network, and instead create a new tag that
> I add to all the functional servers in my network leaving it off this
> single server.
> 
> Again why is this a big deal? What are you gaining by not allowing the
> removal of tags? As an operator I'm certainly losing something.

It was suggested (I think) that tags originate either (a) from the
data model it self, (b) from the implementation itself, (c) from the
operator. You want to be able to overwrite (remove) (a) and (b) tags?
Are tags not scoped by something that represents some form of
ownership? If so, does it make sense to step on other people's
carefully design tags? What if this creates conflicts for different
applications, some like to have a certain tag some don't?

Perhaps what you are requesting is useful but I think it needs a bit
more thinking and clarity about what tags mean and how tags are
scoped.

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>


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Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> writes:

>> I did give an example: IGP hello timers. I feel it's unreasonable to
>> expect me to be more concrete with existing modules when we are talking
>> about creating a feature that would make commonality useful (!)
>>
>> There are IGP models, they have common hello timers, the fact that these
>> are placed in a common area simply has to do with the fact that there
>> was no gain in doing so.
>>
>> I've offered I think a valid use case that is well excepted and present
>> in other areas of computer science, your saying no-one is doing this now
>> with yang. To me that's like having java without the interface
>> statement and then asking to be shown actual java code using the
>> non-existent interface statement. There are yang models with common
>> factorable structure now, I've given an example. If that's not enough I
>> don't know what else I can do.
>
> Sorry, a bunch of tags and an expectation of authors doing things in a
> common way does not give you Java interfaces. I remain unconvinced and
> there is no requirement that we agree on this use case being
> realistic.  At least you seem to agree that for existing modules this
> is not terribly useful and that future modules would have to follow
> certain conventions to make things useful.

I agree it's probably mostly useful going forward.

My xpath foo isn't very strong, but given that both OSPF and IS-IS label
their hello interval timer nodes "hello-interval" I believe this xpath
would select those nodes from both models:

    //hello-interval[/tags="ietf:routing:igp"]

That said, the content does currently differ. For OSPF the node is the
integer timer interval whereas the synonymous interval for IS-IS is a child
node named "value".

>> >> >> Is there a way to get the reset to default behavior? We do allow the
>> >> >> user to remove default set tags, so I think that's why Lou added that
>> >> >> RPC.
>> >> >
>> >> > Note sure whether this (removing of non-configured tags) is a good
>> >> > idea. Again, concrete use cases might help to make the point.
>> >>
>> >> I do want to support tag removal. The most obvious case for tags is for
>> >> operator use, and the resulting tag set for any module should be under
>> >> the control of the operator. A use case would be that some server has a bug
>> >> in their implementation and the admin wants to remove it from possible
>> >> use. I'd ask the reverse question, why take this control away from the
>> >> operator?
>> >
>> > I am trying to understand the use case. If you are unhappy with the
>> > default tags, why not add your own tags? This way, the operator has
>> > full control over his tag space.
>>
>> A model on a server is buggy for some tagged feature, I want to remove
>> that tag from it on that server. Your suggesting rather than me be in
>> control and simply remove that tag from that server, I need to not use
>> that tag at all in all of my network, and instead create a new tag that
>> I add to all the functional servers in my network leaving it off this
>> single server.
>>
>> Again why is this a big deal? What are you gaining by not allowing the
>> removal of tags? As an operator I'm certainly losing something.
>
> It was suggested (I think) that tags originate either (a) from the
> data model it self, (b) from the implementation itself, (c) from the
> operator. You want to be able to overwrite (remove) (a) and (b) tags?
> Are tags not scoped by something that represents some form of
> ownership? If so, does it make sense to step on other people's
> carefully design tags? What if this creates conflicts for different
> applications, some like to have a certain tag some don't?

> Perhaps what you are requesting is useful but I think it needs a bit
> more thinking and clarity about what tags mean and how tags are
> scoped.

Yes indeed tags can be created in 3 ways, but the ultimate authority is
the user as they are the ones actually deploying devices to implement
something (e.g., a network). The designer and implementer cannot
ultimately know how the user will use their devices and their modules. I
guess I'm drawing from my unix background here, give the user the rope;
I'm not sure how they would hang themselves with this particular rope,
but worrying about that seems to be the only reason to not give them the
control. :)

Thanks,
Chris.

> /js

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Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2017 14:04:12 +0100
From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
To: Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>
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Subject: Re: [netmod] Module tags
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On Sun, Feb 12, 2017 at 07:54:52AM -0500, Christian Hopps wrote:
> 
> Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> writes:
> 
> >> I did give an example: IGP hello timers. I feel it's unreasonable to
> >> expect me to be more concrete with existing modules when we are talking
> >> about creating a feature that would make commonality useful (!)
> >>
> >> There are IGP models, they have common hello timers, the fact that these
> >> are placed in a common area simply has to do with the fact that there
> >> was no gain in doing so.
> >>
> >> I've offered I think a valid use case that is well excepted and present
> >> in other areas of computer science, your saying no-one is doing this now
> >> with yang. To me that's like having java without the interface
> >> statement and then asking to be shown actual java code using the
> >> non-existent interface statement. There are yang models with common
> >> factorable structure now, I've given an example. If that's not enough I
> >> don't know what else I can do.
> >
> > Sorry, a bunch of tags and an expectation of authors doing things in a
> > common way does not give you Java interfaces. I remain unconvinced and
> > there is no requirement that we agree on this use case being
> > realistic.  At least you seem to agree that for existing modules this
> > is not terribly useful and that future modules would have to follow
> > certain conventions to make things useful.
> 
> I agree it's probably mostly useful going forward.
> 
> My xpath foo isn't very strong, but given that both OSPF and IS-IS label
> their hello interval timer nodes "hello-interval" I believe this xpath
> would select those nodes from both models:
> 
>     //hello-interval[/tags="ietf:routing:igp"]
> 
> That said, the content does currently differ. For OSPF the node is the
> integer timer interval whereas the synonymous interval for IS-IS is a child
> node named "value".

See, either something is designed and guaranteed to mean the same or
it is not.  Assuming that something showing up at the same path was
designed to be the same can go seriously wrong. I wonder why an
operator would want to run a network on such weak premises.

> >> >> >> Is there a way to get the reset to default behavior? We do allow the
> >> >> >> user to remove default set tags, so I think that's why Lou added that
> >> >> >> RPC.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Note sure whether this (removing of non-configured tags) is a good
> >> >> > idea. Again, concrete use cases might help to make the point.
> >> >>
> >> >> I do want to support tag removal. The most obvious case for tags is for
> >> >> operator use, and the resulting tag set for any module should be under
> >> >> the control of the operator. A use case would be that some server has a bug
> >> >> in their implementation and the admin wants to remove it from possible
> >> >> use. I'd ask the reverse question, why take this control away from the
> >> >> operator?
> >> >
> >> > I am trying to understand the use case. If you are unhappy with the
> >> > default tags, why not add your own tags? This way, the operator has
> >> > full control over his tag space.
> >>
> >> A model on a server is buggy for some tagged feature, I want to remove
> >> that tag from it on that server. Your suggesting rather than me be in
> >> control and simply remove that tag from that server, I need to not use
> >> that tag at all in all of my network, and instead create a new tag that
> >> I add to all the functional servers in my network leaving it off this
> >> single server.
> >>
> >> Again why is this a big deal? What are you gaining by not allowing the
> >> removal of tags? As an operator I'm certainly losing something.
> >
> > It was suggested (I think) that tags originate either (a) from the
> > data model it self, (b) from the implementation itself, (c) from the
> > operator. You want to be able to overwrite (remove) (a) and (b) tags?
> > Are tags not scoped by something that represents some form of
> > ownership? If so, does it make sense to step on other people's
> > carefully design tags? What if this creates conflicts for different
> > applications, some like to have a certain tag some don't?
> 
> > Perhaps what you are requesting is useful but I think it needs a bit
> > more thinking and clarity about what tags mean and how tags are
> > scoped.
> 
> Yes indeed tags can be created in 3 ways, but the ultimate authority is
> the user as they are the ones actually deploying devices to implement
> something (e.g., a network). The designer and implementer cannot
> ultimately know how the user will use their devices and their modules.

Then there should only be type (c) tags. 

> I guess I'm drawing from my unix background here, give the user the rope;
> I'm not sure how they would hang themselves with this particular rope,
> but worrying about that seems to be the only reason to not give them the
> control. :)

There are many things a device can implement differently. Do we
generally need a way to overwrite things? I am trying to understand
why tags are different and considered to require this ability. And as
I said, there is always the option to trust only the tags an operator
has assigned himself.

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>


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Subject: Re: [netmod] Module tags
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Juergen


On February 12, 2017 8:04:55 AM Juergen Schoenwaelder 
<j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:

> On Sun, Feb 12, 2017 at 07:54:52AM -0500, Christian Hopps wrote:
>>
>> Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> writes:
>>
...
>> > It was suggested (I think) that tags originate either (a) from the
>> > data model it self, (b) from the implementation itself, (c) from the
>> > operator. You want to be able to overwrite (remove) (a) and (b) tags?
>> > Are tags not scoped by something that represents some form of
>> > ownership? If so, does it make sense to step on other people's
>> > carefully design tags? What if this creates conflicts for different
>> > applications, some like to have a certain tag some don't?
>>
>> > Perhaps what you are requesting is useful but I think it needs a bit
>> > more thinking and clarity about what tags mean and how tags are
>> > scoped.
>>
>> Yes indeed tags can be created in 3 ways, but the ultimate authority is
>> the user as they are the ones actually deploying devices to implement
>> something (e.g., a network). The designer and implementer cannot
>> ultimately know how the user will use their devices and their modules.
>
> Then there should only be type (c) tags.
>
>> I guess I'm drawing from my unix background here, give the user the rope;
>> I'm not sure how they would hang themselves with this particular rope,
>> but worrying about that seems to be the only reason to not give them the
>> control. :)
>
> There are many things a device can implement differently. Do we
> generally need a way to overwrite things? I am trying to understand
> why tags are different and considered to require this ability. And as
> I said, there is always the option to trust only the tags an operator
> has assigned himself.
>

This is all about proving user controllable metadata for modules. Library 
is a good existing example of providing what I mean by module metadata, but 
its data is (rightly) not under user control. So one thing that is 
"different" about tags is the user control of the metadata.

>From a mechanism perspective, creating a config true module for module 
metadata is fine -  but personally, I still see the value of having module 
metadata consolidated in yang library.

>From a user perspective, the authors think the capability  (including a, b, 
c from above and complete ability to override the user) is useful - even if 
we don’t agree on all aspects of how this mechanism is going to be most 
used/useful down the road.

Please keep in mind that tags are data about modules, i.e. module metadata. 
So the item/information being "configured" is another module. This is 
another way in which tags are different than other modules and their  
information.

Lou

> /js
>
> --
> Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
> Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>
>
> _______________________________________________
> netmod mailing list
> netmod@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
>



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--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/plain


Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> writes:
> On Sun, Feb 12, 2017 at 07:54:52AM -0500, Christian Hopps wrote:
>> Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> writes:
>> > It was suggested (I think) that tags originate either (a) from the
>> > data model it self, (b) from the implementation itself, (c) from the
>> > operator. You want to be able to overwrite (remove) (a) and (b) tags?
>> > Are tags not scoped by something that represents some form of
>> > ownership? If so, does it make sense to step on other people's
>> > carefully design tags? What if this creates conflicts for different
>> > applications, some like to have a certain tag some don't?
>>
>> > Perhaps what you are requesting is useful but I think it needs a bit
>> > more thinking and clarity about what tags mean and how tags are
>> > scoped.
>>
>> Yes indeed tags can be created in 3 ways, but the ultimate authority is
>> the user as they are the ones actually deploying devices to implement
>> something (e.g., a network). The designer and implementer cannot
>> ultimately know how the user will use their devices and their modules.
>
> Then there should only be type (c) tags.
>
>> I guess I'm drawing from my unix background here, give the user the rope;
>> I'm not sure how they would hang themselves with this particular rope,
>> but worrying about that seems to be the only reason to not give them the
>> control. :)
>
> There are many things a device can implement differently. Do we
> generally need a way to overwrite things? I am trying to understand
> why tags are different and considered to require this ability. And as
> I said, there is always the option to trust only the tags an operator
> has assigned himself.

The tags defined by (a) and (b) are still for the users use. In fact
aren't there plenty of defaults in configuration on devices that the
user can override or remove? I guess I don't understand why this is so
controversial.

Thanks,
Chris.

>
> /js

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From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
To: Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>
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On Sun, Feb 12, 2017 at 08:55:04AM -0500, Christian Hopps wrote:
> 
> Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> writes:
> > On Sun, Feb 12, 2017 at 07:54:52AM -0500, Christian Hopps wrote:
> >> Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> writes:
> >> > It was suggested (I think) that tags originate either (a) from the
> >> > data model it self, (b) from the implementation itself, (c) from the
> >> > operator. You want to be able to overwrite (remove) (a) and (b) tags?
> >> > Are tags not scoped by something that represents some form of
> >> > ownership? If so, does it make sense to step on other people's
> >> > carefully design tags? What if this creates conflicts for different
> >> > applications, some like to have a certain tag some don't?
> >>
> >> > Perhaps what you are requesting is useful but I think it needs a bit
> >> > more thinking and clarity about what tags mean and how tags are
> >> > scoped.
> >>
> >> Yes indeed tags can be created in 3 ways, but the ultimate authority is
> >> the user as they are the ones actually deploying devices to implement
> >> something (e.g., a network). The designer and implementer cannot
> >> ultimately know how the user will use their devices and their modules.
> >
> > Then there should only be type (c) tags.
> >
> >> I guess I'm drawing from my unix background here, give the user the rope;
> >> I'm not sure how they would hang themselves with this particular rope,
> >> but worrying about that seems to be the only reason to not give them the
> >> control. :)
> >
> > There are many things a device can implement differently. Do we
> > generally need a way to overwrite things? I am trying to understand
> > why tags are different and considered to require this ability. And as
> > I said, there is always the option to trust only the tags an operator
> > has assigned himself.
> 
> The tags defined by (a) and (b) are still for the users use. In fact
> aren't there plenty of defaults in configuration on devices that the
> user can override or remove? I guess I don't understand why this is so
> controversial.
> 

In YANG, you can overwrite defaults by configuring explicit values,
you can't remove the default - the default is just not used anymore
once there is a configured value - the default still exists and it
will come back when there is no configured value anymore. But I am not
sure the analogy is a good one.

If a data model defines an implementation should set the tag 'foo',
then it feels odd to me to go to the device and to remove that
tag. The tag 'foo' after all is there because the data model says it
should be there - so in an ideal world all implementations of this
data model will set the tag. Why would be removing the 'foo' tag on
all these correct implementations be significantly cheaper than simply
using your own (application specific) tag instead of the 'foo' tag
(that does not seem to do what you like)? Or you add a tag
'ops-foo-broken' to those implementations where you believe the foo
tag is inappropriate.

At the end, it is not a big deal to remove tags but somehow I am not
sure whether there is not a difference between (a), (b), and (c) tags.

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>


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To: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
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--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/plain


Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> writes:

> On Sun, Feb 12, 2017 at 08:55:04AM -0500, Christian Hopps wrote:
>> The tags defined by (a) and (b) are still for the users use. In fact
>> aren't there plenty of defaults in configuration on devices that the
>> user can override or remove? I guess I don't understand why this is so
>> controversial.
>>
>
> In YANG, you can overwrite defaults by configuring explicit values,
> you can't remove the default - the default is just not used anymore
> once there is a configured value - the default still exists and it
> will come back when there is no configured value anymore. But I am not
> sure the analogy is a good one.
>
> If a data model defines an implementation should set the tag 'foo',
> then it feels odd to me to go to the device and to remove that
> tag.

Perhaps strictly from a module designers point of view it might seem
odd. One reason we allow for changing things from strictly the designers
point of view though is because the designer can't anticipate all use
cases and situations that arise from here to eternity. As I'm the user,
unless there is a very good reason not to the default should be to let
me do what I want. That's the unix way, and I certainly like unix. :)

> The tag 'foo' after all is there because the data model says it
> should be there - so in an ideal world all implementations of this
> data model will set the tag. Why would be removing the 'foo' tag on
> all these correct implementations be significantly cheaper than simply
> using your own (application specific) tag instead of the 'foo' tag
> (that does not seem to do what you like)? Or you add a tag
> 'ops-foo-broken' to those implementations where you believe the foo
> tag is inappropriate.
>
> At the end, it is not a big deal to remove tags but somehow I am not
> sure whether there is not a difference between (a), (b), and (c) tags.

The tag is there to help identify things about the module to the users
of that module, as the ultimate authority on the use of this module I
want to be able to override that default just like I can override other
default values.

Your right I can add a new tag to be used by software that I can modify,
but what if other software I need to use is also using the designer's
tag? I can only control it by removing the tag in that case.

It doesn't cost anything really to allow for this, and it provides
future-proofing control to the user, conversely what do we gain from
disallowing it?

Thanks,
Chris.

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From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
To: Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>
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Subject: Re: [netmod] Module tags
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On Sun, Feb 12, 2017 at 12:40:20PM -0500, Christian Hopps wrote:
> 
> Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> writes:
> 
> > On Sun, Feb 12, 2017 at 08:55:04AM -0500, Christian Hopps wrote:
> >> The tags defined by (a) and (b) are still for the users use. In fact
> >> aren't there plenty of defaults in configuration on devices that the
> >> user can override or remove? I guess I don't understand why this is so
> >> controversial.
> >>
> >
> > In YANG, you can overwrite defaults by configuring explicit values,
> > you can't remove the default - the default is just not used anymore
> > once there is a configured value - the default still exists and it
> > will come back when there is no configured value anymore. But I am not
> > sure the analogy is a good one.
> >
> > If a data model defines an implementation should set the tag 'foo',
> > then it feels odd to me to go to the device and to remove that
> > tag.
> 
> Perhaps strictly from a module designers point of view it might seem
> odd. One reason we allow for changing things from strictly the designers
> point of view though is because the designer can't anticipate all use
> cases and situations that arise from here to eternity. As I'm the user,
> unless there is a very good reason not to the default should be to let
> me do what I want. That's the unix way, and I certainly like unix. :)
>
> > The tag 'foo' after all is there because the data model says it
> > should be there - so in an ideal world all implementations of this
> > data model will set the tag. Why would be removing the 'foo' tag on
> > all these correct implementations be significantly cheaper than simply
> > using your own (application specific) tag instead of the 'foo' tag
> > (that does not seem to do what you like)? Or you add a tag
> > 'ops-foo-broken' to those implementations where you believe the foo
> > tag is inappropriate.
> >
> > At the end, it is not a big deal to remove tags but somehow I am not
> > sure whether there is not a difference between (a), (b), and (c) tags.
> 
> The tag is there to help identify things about the module to the users
> of that module, as the ultimate authority on the use of this module I
> want to be able to override that default just like I can override other
> default values.
> 
> Your right I can add a new tag to be used by software that I can modify,
> but what if other software I need to use is also using the designer's
> tag? I can only control it by removing the tag in that case.

Or you break software by removing that tag. If a module says an
implementation must set a certain tag, how can it help to remove this
tag? Are you not breaking a part of a contract between a module and
implementations using the module?

> It doesn't cost anything really to allow for this, and it provides
> future-proofing control to the user, conversely what do we gain from
> disallowing it?

I am simply challenging you in order to better understand how people
expect tags to be used, what it means to have type (a), (b), and (c)
tags and why it is necessary to be able to remove type (a) and (b)
tags. I guess it all boils down to what it really means to say in a
module that a certain set of tags must be set, i.e., whether an
application can rely on these tags to be set or not.

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>


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--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/plain


Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> writes:
>> The tag is there to help identify things about the module to the users
>> of that module, as the ultimate authority on the use of this module I
>> want to be able to override that default just like I can override other
>> default values.
>>
>> Your right I can add a new tag to be used by software that I can modify,
>> but what if other software I need to use is also using the designer's
>> tag? I can only control it by removing the tag in that case.
>
> Or you break software by removing that tag. If a module says an
> implementation must set a certain tag, how can it help to remove this
> tag? Are you not breaking a part of a contract between a module and
> implementations using the module?

I don't break your software, I break my network. I bought your software
I want control over it.

>> It doesn't cost anything really to allow for this, and it provides
>> future-proofing control to the user, conversely what do we gain from
>> disallowing it?
>
> I am simply challenging you in order to better understand how people
> expect tags to be used, what it means to have type (a), (b), and (c)
> tags and why it is necessary to be able to remove type (a) and (b)
> tags. I guess it all boils down to what it really means to say in a
> module that a certain set of tags must be set, i.e., whether an
> application can rely on these tags to be set or not.

Indeed, the application should rely on those tags being set. That's
what gives me control over what the application uses or doesn't.

I'd like to hear what is gained by *not* providing the user (customer!)
this option.

Thanks,
Chris.

> /js

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--_000_DM5PR16MB18505351770C06DC5AFE27FCA1590DM5PR16MB1850namp_
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dgb2312">
</head>
<body>
<p dir=3D"auto" style=3D" text-align: left; margin-top: 25px; margin-bottom=
: 25px; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; background-=
color: white ">
Hi Kent,</p>
<p dir=3D"auto" style=3D" text-align: left; margin-top: 25px; margin-bottom=
: 25px; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; background-=
color: white ">
Your conclusion is conflict with the above analysis. So do you means YANG R=
FC7950/6020 should be correct, RFC6241 is wrong and should fix it. Right?</=
p>
<p dir=3D"auto" style=3D" text-align: left; margin-top: 25px; margin-bottom=
: 25px; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; background-=
color: white ">
Regards,<br>
Peipei Guo</p>
<p dir=3D"auto" style=3D" text-align: left; margin-top: 25px; margin-bottom=
: 25px; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; background-=
color: white ">
=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Kent Watsen<br>
=D2=D1=B7=A2=CB=CD: 2=D4=C211=C8=D5=D0=C7=C6=DA=C1=F9 =C9=CF=CE=E72:56<br>
=D6=F7=CC=E2: Re: [netmod] Conflicting usage scenario for &quot;invalid-val=
ue&quot; error-tag between RFC 6241 &amp; RFC 6020<br>
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: Rohit pobbathi, netmod@ietf.org<br>
</p>
<p dir=3D"auto" style=3D" text-align: left; margin-top: 25px; margin-bottom=
: 25px; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; background-=
color: white ">
Hi Rohit,</p>
<p dir=3D"auto" style=3D" text-align: left; margin-top: 25px; margin-bottom=
: 25px; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; background-=
color: white ">
&nbsp;</p>
<p dir=3D"auto" style=3D" text-align: left; margin-top: 25px; margin-bottom=
: 25px; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; background-=
color: white ">
On one hand, this seems like a protocol issue, so opting for NETCONF's defi=
nitions makes sense.&nbsp; &nbsp;On the other hand, RFC 6241 is just defini=
ng the error-tag without mandating when it's used, whereas RFC 7950 is spec=
ifying when it's to be used, so opting for
 YANG's normative language makes sense (it does no harm).&nbsp; </p>
<p dir=3D"auto" style=3D" text-align: left; margin-top: 25px; margin-bottom=
: 25px; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; background-=
color: white ">
&nbsp;</p>
<p dir=3D"auto" style=3D" text-align: left; margin-top: 25px; margin-bottom=
: 25px; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; background-=
color: white ">
Personally, I think YANG got it wrong and so it should be fixed there.</p>
<p dir=3D"auto" style=3D" text-align: left; margin-top: 25px; margin-bottom=
: 25px; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; background-=
color: white ">
&nbsp;</p>
<p dir=3D"auto" style=3D" text-align: left; margin-top: 25px; margin-bottom=
: 25px; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; background-=
color: white ">
Kent // as a contributor</p>
<p dir=3D"auto" style=3D" text-align: left; margin-top: 25px; margin-bottom=
: 25px; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; background-=
color: white ">
&nbsp;</p>
<p dir=3D"auto" style=3D" text-align: left; margin-top: 25px; margin-bottom=
: 25px; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; background-=
color: white ">
&nbsp;</p>
<p dir=3D"auto" style=3D" text-align: left; margin-top: 25px; margin-bottom=
: 25px; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; background-=
color: white ">
On 2/10/17, 9:25 AM, &quot;Rohit pobbathi&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rohit=
.pobbathi@huawei.com">rohit.pobbathi@huawei.com</a>&gt; wrote:</p>
<p dir=3D"auto" style=3D" text-align: left; margin-top: 25px; margin-bottom=
: 25px; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; background-=
color: white ">
&nbsp;</p>
<p dir=3D"auto" style=3D" text-align: left; margin-top: 25px; margin-bottom=
: 25px; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; background-=
color: white ">
Hi,</p>
<p dir=3D"auto" style=3D" text-align: left; margin-top: 25px; margin-bottom=
: 25px; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; background-=
color: white ">
<font color=3D"#0000ff">&nbsp;</font></p>
<p dir=3D"auto" style=3D" text-align: left; margin-top: 25px; margin-bottom=
: 25px; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; background-=
color: white ">
<font color=3D"#0000ff">Repeating a query about RFC Section conflict for th=
e usage of error-tag usage during
</font><b><font color=3D"#000000">leaf data value mismatch in range/length/=
pattern.</font></b></p>
<p dir=3D"auto" style=3D" text-align: left; margin-top: 25px; margin-bottom=
: 25px; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; background-=
color: white ">
&nbsp;</p>
<p dir=3D"auto" style=3D" text-align: left; margin-top: 25px; margin-bottom=
: 25px; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; background-=
color: white ">
<b>RFC 6241 Appendix A.&nbsp; NETCONF Error List =A8C provides the below de=
scription for =A1=B0invalid-value=A1=B1 &amp; =A1=B0bad-element=A1=B1</b></=
p>
<p dir=3D"auto" style=3D" text-align: left; margin-top: 25px; margin-bottom=
: 25px; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; background-=
color: white ">
&nbsp;&nbsp; error-tag:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;inv=
alid-value</p>
<p dir=3D"auto" style=3D" text-align: left; margin-top: 25px; margin-bottom=
: 25px; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; background-=
color: white ">
&nbsp;&nbsp; error-type:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;protocol, appl=
ication</p>
<p dir=3D"auto" style=3D" text-align: left; margin-top: 25px; margin-bottom=
: 25px; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; background-=
color: white ">
&nbsp;&nbsp; error-severity: error</p>
<p dir=3D"auto" style=3D" text-align: left; margin-top: 25px; margin-bottom=
: 25px; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; background-=
color: white ">
&nbsp;&nbsp; error-info:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;none</p>
<p dir=3D"auto" style=3D" text-align: left; margin-top: 25px; margin-bottom=
: 25px; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; background-=
color: white ">
&nbsp;&nbsp; Description:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <font color=3D"#0000ff">The req=
uest specifies an unacceptable value for one</font></p>
<p dir=3D"auto" style=3D" text-align: left; margin-top: 25px; margin-bottom=
: 25px; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; background-=
color: white ">
<font color=3D"#0000ff">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;or more parameters.</font></p>
<p dir=3D"auto" style=3D" text-align: left; margin-top: 25px; margin-bottom=
: 25px; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; background-=
color: white ">
<font color=3D"#0000ff">&nbsp;</font></p>
<p dir=3D"auto" style=3D" text-align: left; margin-top: 25px; margin-bottom=
: 25px; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; background-=
color: white ">
&nbsp;&nbsp; error-tag:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;bad=
-element</p>
<p dir=3D"auto" style=3D" text-align: left; margin-top: 25px; margin-bottom=
: 25px; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; background-=
color: white ">
&nbsp;&nbsp; error-type:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;protocol, appl=
ication</p>
<p dir=3D"auto" style=3D" text-align: left; margin-top: 25px; margin-bottom=
: 25px; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; background-=
color: white ">
&nbsp;&nbsp; error-severity: error</p>
<p dir=3D"auto" style=3D" text-align: left; margin-top: 25px; margin-bottom=
: 25px; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; background-=
color: white ">
&nbsp;&nbsp; error-info:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&lt;bad-=
element&gt; : name of the element w/ bad value</p>
<p dir=3D"auto" style=3D" text-align: left; margin-top: 25px; margin-bottom=
: 25px; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; background-=
color: white ">
&nbsp;&nbsp; Description:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;<font color=3D"#0000ff">A=
n element value is not correct; e.g., wrong type,</font></p>
<p dir=3D"auto" style=3D" text-align: left; margin-top: 25px; margin-bottom=
: 25px; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; background-=
color: white ">
<font color=3D"#0000ff">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;out of range, pattern mism=
atch.</font></p>
<p dir=3D"auto" style=3D" text-align: left; margin-top: 25px; margin-bottom=
: 25px; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; background-=
color: white ">
<font color=3D"#0000ff">&nbsp;</font></p>
<p dir=3D"auto" style=3D" text-align: left; margin-top: 25px; margin-bottom=
: 25px; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; background-=
color: white ">
<font color=3D"#000000"><b>RFC 6020 Section 8.3.1.&nbsp; Payload Parsing</b=
></font></p>
<p dir=3D"auto" style=3D" text-align: left; margin-top: 25px; margin-bottom=
: 25px; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; background-=
color: white ">
<font color=3D"#000000">&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; If a leaf data value does not =
match the type constraints for the</font></p>
<p dir=3D"auto" style=3D" text-align: left; margin-top: 25px; margin-bottom=
: 25px; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; background-=
color: white ">
<font color=3D"#000000">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; leaf, </font><font c=
olor=3D"#ff0000">including those defined in the type's &quot;range&quot;, &=
quot;length&quot;, and</font></p>
<p dir=3D"auto" style=3D" text-align: left; margin-top: 25px; margin-bottom=
: 25px; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; background-=
color: white ">
<font color=3D"#ff0000">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &quot;pattern&quot; =
properties, the server MUST reply with an</font></p>
<p dir=3D"auto" style=3D" text-align: left; margin-top: 25px; margin-bottom=
: 25px; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; background-=
color: white ">
<font color=3D"#ff0000">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &quot;invalid-value&=
quot;</font><font color=3D"#000000"> error-tag in the rpc-error, and with t=
he error-</font></p>
<p dir=3D"auto" style=3D" text-align: left; margin-top: 25px; margin-bottom=
: 25px; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; background-=
color: white ">
<font color=3D"#000000">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; app-tag and error-me=
ssage associated with the constraint, if any</font></p>
<p dir=3D"auto" style=3D" text-align: left; margin-top: 25px; margin-bottom=
: 25px; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; background-=
color: white ">
<font color=3D"#000000">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; exist.</font></p>
<p dir=3D"auto" style=3D" text-align: left; margin-top: 25px; margin-bottom=
: 25px; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; background-=
color: white ">
<font color=3D"#000000">&nbsp;</font></p>
<p dir=3D"auto" style=3D" text-align: left; margin-top: 25px; margin-bottom=
: 25px; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; background-=
color: white ">
<b><font color=3D"#000000">For leaf data value mismatch in range/length/pat=
tern there is conflict in the error-tag suggested by RFC 6241 &amp; RFC 602=
0.</font></b></p>
<p dir=3D"auto" style=3D" text-align: left; margin-top: 25px; margin-bottom=
: 25px; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; background-=
color: white ">
<font color=3D"#000000">Please confirm which is the right error-tag to be u=
sed in a standard Netconf Server implementation.</font></p>
<p dir=3D"auto" style=3D" text-align: left; margin-top: 25px; margin-bottom=
: 25px; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; background-=
color: white ">
<font color=3D"#000000">&nbsp;</font></p>
<p dir=3D"auto" style=3D" text-align: left; margin-top: 25px; margin-bottom=
: 25px; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; background-=
color: white ">
<font color=3D"#000000">Regards,</font></p>
<p dir=3D"auto" style=3D" text-align: left; margin-top: 25px; margin-bottom=
: 25px; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; background-=
color: white ">
<font color=3D"#000000">Rohit Pobbathi</font><br>
<br>
</p>
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--_000_DM5PR16MB18505351770C06DC5AFE27FCA1590DM5PR16MB1850namp_--


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Thread-Topic: [netmod] Conflicting usage scenario for "invalid-value" error-tag between RFC 6241 & RFC 6020
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/XMnslpOcwN7yXl5Uf68WEy5hZVk>
Subject: Re: [netmod] Conflicting usage scenario for "invalid-value" error-tag between RFC 6241 & RFC 6020
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--_000_8CC0B1F3BA5C4A81847215698BFB7AEFjunipernet_--


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To: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>, Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>, Dean Bogdanovic <ivandean@gmail.com>
References: <87r338gtzw.fsf@chopps.org> <20170209.085506.1418859449501855827.mbj@tail-f.com> <878tpfac43.fsf@chopps.org> <20170209.120823.198284779081114388.mbj@tail-f.com> <874m03a74p.fsf@chopps.org> <15a22d86378.27fd.9b4188e636579690ba6c69f2c8a0f1fd@labn.net>
From: Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com>
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Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2017 16:49:22 +0000
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Subject: Re: [netmod] Module tags
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Hi tags draft authors,

On 09/02/2017 12:28, Lou Berger wrote:
>
> I'm personally more excited by the use of tags as additional module 
> meta-data accessible via yang library. But also see no reason to 
> preclude this possible  (even if unlikely) usage.

When the idea of tags was presented as IETF, I had assumed that tags 
would be versioned/managed entirely independently from the YANG modules 
that the tags apply to.

For a while, there was a desire to organize YANG modules by their 
hierarchical path location in the schema tree.  My concern with this 
approach, is that there needs to be sufficient foresight to get that 
structure right now, because it will be very painful to change it in 
future.  Unfortunately things have a habit of evolving over time, and 
hence choosing the right structure now such that is still the right 
structure in 25 years seems somewhat unlikely.

I was thinking that tags offers a better solution to this problem, that 
allows the structure to be a bit more dynamic, evolving over time.  I.e. 
YANG modules for features can sit at (or near to) the top level of the 
schema tree, and tags can then be used to group those modules into 
sensible organizations that can evolve, so that when clients are trying 
to sort through all the different YANG models that are available, they 
have more hope than looking at a flat list.

In this scenario, I think that it is better if the YANG module 
definitions themselves don't specify the tags because then 
adding/removing/changing them is going to be a pain.  If this tag 
information was managed separately (e.g. in something like YANG catalog) 
then it seems easier for the tags to evolve over time.

But I also had not really realized that the tags information would 
necessarily reach down to the devices.  I.e. I hadn't envisaged Chris's 
example of querying the hello-time via an IGP package tag. Instead, I 
had thought of tags making a YANG catalog website more useful.  E.g. 
when browsing for YANG modules, be able to restrict the query to just 
the modules that are tagged as "standard" + "IGP", etc.

So, I think that this draft may benefit with a bit more description of 
the envisaged use cases, and also about how tags are envisaged to evolve 
once they have been defined.

Thanks,
Rob

>
> Lou
>
>
>> Thanks,
>> Chris.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> netmod mailing list
> netmod@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
> .
>


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From: Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>
To: Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com>, Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>, Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>, Dean Bogdanovic <ivandean@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [netmod] Module tags
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From: "Guopeipei (Peipei Guo)" <guopeipei@huawei.com>
To: Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>, Rohit pobbathi <rohit.pobbathi@huawei.com>, "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [netmod] Conflicting usage scenario for "invalid-value" error-tag between RFC 6241 & RFC 6020
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Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 08:24:39 +0000
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From: Tianran Zhou <zhoutianran@huawei.com>
To: "Carl Moberg (camoberg)" <camoberg@cisco.com>, "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
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From: Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [netmod] Module tags
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On 13/02/2017 18:19, Kent Watsen wrote:
> As for a concrete use-case, would something like this be helpful
> for a server to indicate which datastores a module is supported in?
I'm not sure.  I would probably prefer to see the two kept separate, but 
it may depend on what the scope of modules tags ends up being.

Rob

>
> I'm thinking specifically about the revised-datastores draft where
> we've discussed that a module might exist in just oper-state,
> oper-state + ephemeral, oper-state + ephemeral + running, etc.
>
>
> Kent // as a contributor
>
>
>
>
> Hi tags draft authors,
>
> On 09/02/2017 12:28, Lou Berger wrote:
>> I'm personally more excited by the use of tags as additional module
>> meta-data accessible via yang library. But also see no reason to
>> preclude this possible  (even if unlikely) usage.
> When the idea of tags was presented as IETF, I had assumed that tags
> would be versioned/managed entirely independently from the YANG modules
> that the tags apply to.
>
> For a while, there was a desire to organize YANG modules by their
> hierarchical path location in the schema tree.  My concern with this
> approach, is that there needs to be sufficient foresight to get that
> structure right now, because it will be very painful to change it in
> future.  Unfortunately things have a habit of evolving over time, and
> hence choosing the right structure now such that is still the right
> structure in 25 years seems somewhat unlikely.
>
> I was thinking that tags offers a better solution to this problem, that
> allows the structure to be a bit more dynamic, evolving over time.  I.e.
> YANG modules for features can sit at (or near to) the top level of the
> schema tree, and tags can then be used to group those modules into
> sensible organizations that can evolve, so that when clients are trying
> to sort through all the different YANG models that are available, they
> have more hope than looking at a flat list.
>
> In this scenario, I think that it is better if the YANG module
> definitions themselves don't specify the tags because then
> adding/removing/changing them is going to be a pain.  If this tag
> information was managed separately (e.g. in something like YANG catalog)
> then it seems easier for the tags to evolve over time.
>
> But I also had not really realized that the tags information would
> necessarily reach down to the devices.  I.e. I hadn't envisaged Chris's
> example of querying the hello-time via an IGP package tag. Instead, I
> had thought of tags making a YANG catalog website more useful.  E.g.
> when browsing for YANG modules, be able to restrict the query to just
> the modules that are tagged as "standard" + "IGP", etc.
>
> So, I think that this draft may benefit with a bit more description of
> the envisaged use cases, and also about how tags are envisaged to evolve
> once they have been defined.
>
> Thanks,
> Rob
>
>> Lou
>>
>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Chris.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> netmod mailing list
>> netmod@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
>> .
>>
> _______________________________________________
> netmod mailing list
> netmod@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
>
>


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From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
To: Tianran Zhou <zhoutianran@huawei.com>
Message-ID: <20170214100329.GA12798@elstar.local>
Mail-Followup-To: Tianran Zhou <zhoutianran@huawei.com>, "Carl Moberg (camoberg)" <camoberg@cisco.com>, "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, "opsawg@ietf.org" <opsawg@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-netmod-yang-model-classification@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-netmod-yang-model-classification@ietf.org>,  "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>, Dean Bogdanovic <dean@voltanet.io>
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Subject: Re: [netmod] [OPSAWG] Question on draft-ietf-netmod-yang-model-classification
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I would prefer to have all terms people find agreement on in a single
document.

/js

On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 09:54:10AM +0000, Tianran Zhou wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Based on the discussion, here I try to clean up the confusion of the two I-Ds.
> 
> [draft-ietf-netmod-yang-model-classification] classifies the yang modules into "Network Service YANG Module" and the "Network Element YANG Module". And usually, it uses "service module" to imply the "Network Service YANG Module", i.e., "Network" here only want to limit the scope to network related modules. One example of "Network Service YANG Module" is [draft-ietf-l3sm-l3vpn-service-model].
> The authors do not want to further classify the service module into more layers, until more operational practice comes.
> 
> [draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained] further classifies the service module into "customer service module" and the "service delivery module". I think this is based on the chair work on L3SM and L2SM WG and discussion with operators.
> But the document think the "Network Service YANG Module" defined in [draft-ietf-netmod-yang-model-classification] is "service delivery module" not include the "customer service module". The [draft-ietf-l3sm-l3vpn-service-model] is actually the "customer service module".
> 
> Here comes the question:
> 1. Whether it's necessary to further classify the "Network Service YANG Module"?
> 2. What's the well definition of "Network Service YANG Module", "customer service module", "service delivery module"?
> 3. What's the well position of the above terms in the management architecture?
> 
> Good to see if we can solve the conflicts, these two I-Ds can complement each other.
> 
> Best,
> Tianran
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: netmod [mailto:netmod-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Carl Moberg
> > (camoberg)
> > Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2017 12:48 AM
> > To: adrian@olddog.co.uk
> > Cc: opsawg@ietf.org;
> > draft-ietf-netmod-yang-model-classification@ietf.org; netmod@ietf.org;
> > Dean Bogdanovic
> > Subject: Re: [netmod] Question on
> > draft-ietf-netmod-yang-model-classification
> > 
> > Team,
> > 
> >  Inline below.
> > 
> > > On Feb 8, 2017, at 8:04 AM, Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Dean,
> > >
> > > I've been processing your response and the continuing thread with you
> > and Tianran.
> > >
> > >>> We've been trying to ensure that
> > >>> draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained is consistent with the
> > >>> latest version of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-model-classification. In
> > >>> discussions with Tianran a question has come up.
> > >>>
> > >>> In section 2 you have a nice definition of Network Service YANG
> > >>> Modules and this definition maps nicely to our definition of "service
> > delivery models".
> > >>> Furthermore, your figure 1 shows Network Service YANG Modules on the
> > >>> interface between OSS/BSS and the various network services.
> > >>>
> > >>> We have further defined "customer service models" at a higher layer
> > >>> still. That is, on the interface to the customer. This (of course?)
> > >>> assumes that the OSS/BSS is not customer code :-)
> > >>>
> > >>> However, your discussion of Network Service YANG Modules in section
> > >>> 2.1 seems slightly at odds, although this may be just ambiguity.
> > >>>
> > >>> For example, when you say, "Network Service YANG Modules describe
> > >>> the characteristics of a service, as agreed upon with consumers of that
> > service,"
> > >>> this is not the same as, "This model is used in the discussion
> > >>> between a customer and a service provide to describe the characteristics
> > of a service."
> > >>> That is, the former case could be arrived at after processing based
> > >>> on the latter case - processing that we have called "service
> > >>> orchestration" but might (of course) be what leads to the operator poking
> > the OSS/BSS.
> > >>
> > >> Adrian, I can see the ambiguity. The point of service module is to be
> > >> consumed by the customer and there can be some modifications of the
> > >> service module to adapt to the customer specifics.
> > >
> > > So far I agree with your email and therefore not with your document. The
> > OSS/BSS is not, IMHO, a tool used by the customer.
> > >
> > > Please see Figure 3 in draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained-05.txt
> > that shows the customer distinct from the OSS/BSS.
> > 
> >  IMHO figure 3 in the draft is what it says, an _example_ of a set of
> > relationships between the constituent parts of a provisioning/activation
> > system.
> > 
> >  In all real-world applications, customers are several layers above the
> > “service orchestrator” and adjacent systems. But the YANG model nevertheless
> > serves the purpose of describing the structure of the service for customer
> > (outside the SP) or other consuming parties (e.g. the OSS/BSS teams).
> > 
> > >>> This might all be fine and good, but later in the same section you
> > >>> say "Network Service YANG Modules define service models to be
> > >>> consumed by external systems.
> > >>> These modules are commonly designed, developed and deployed by
> > >>> network infrastructure teams." And there you introduce two terms
> > >>> that are previously undefined and only server to add ambiguity.
> > >>> Specifically "external to what?" I could make and argument that the
> > >>> OSS is developed and deployed by network infrastructure teams, ad also
> > that the OSS is external to the network itself.
> > >>
> > >> Agree that external systems are not defined and this text has to be
> > >> clarified. The external systems can be OSS and BSS.
> > >
> > > If we relabelled our "Service Delivery Model" as "Network Service Model"
> > would that be consistent?
> > >
> > > That is, in any case, to say that the OSS/BSS does not talk directly to
> > the devices.
> > 
> >  I think that would help. And yes, the intent of “external” was to say “other
> > than”, rather than “outside of the company” (or something like that).
> > 
> > >>> And, in between these two quoted pieces of text, you have...
> > >>>
> > >>>  As an example, the Network Service YANG Module defined in
> > >>> [YANG-Data-Model-for-L3VPN-service-delivery] provides an abstract
> > >>> model for Layer 3 IP VPN service configuration.
> > >>
> > >> My question is where do you see the L3SM model above or below OSS?
> > >
> > > Well, look at the figure in section 5 of
> > > draft-ietf-l3sm-l3vpn-service-model-19.txt
> > >
> > > It is logically higher, but OSS/BSS are not "in the flow" as they are
> > legacy components in a softwarized world.
> > > However, per our pictures, OSS/BSS should use the same set of models/modules
> > as used by the "service orchestrator”.
> > 
> >  This is a little different in different SPs. Many of them consider the
> > RFS-style service definition as laid out in L3SM as something that is owned
> > by the infratrstucture and ordered through the OSS/BSS layer (the order
> > manager to be more precise).
> > 
> > >> Because there are some nuances in the service module, but at the end
> > >> we decided not to do sub classification
> > >
> > > Mutter, mutter.
> > > In the document, you talk about "network service modules" not "service
> > modules" and only trim to "service module" in the text implying that you
> > always actually mean "network service module”.
> > 
> >  We always mean “network service models”, there are many “service models”
> > out there that have little or nothing to do with the network. And I would
> > like to not go there :-)
> > 
> > >> one is the business and one technical service.
> > >>
> > >> When i read the YANG-Data-Model-for-L3VPN-service-delivery, it looked
> > >> to me much more like a technical model, then the business model, as
> > >> didn’t see SLA definitions to track the business parameters of the service
> > use.
> > >
> > > It is certainly not a business model and does not include SLAs. Other
> > people have far more experience working on these things (TMF, MEF, ...)
> > and it is not an IETF core competence. Our intention is that our module
> > can be augmented or accompanied by other modules in order to create a business
> > model, acknowledging that commercial details (even including SLAs) will
> > vary from one operator to another, but that the core technical description
> > of the service can be (and, it turns out, is) common across multiple
> > providers.
> > >
> > > We even wrote text in Section 5 of draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained
> > to help with this.
> > >
> > >>> Per my other email, this reference needs to be fixed. But I struggle
> > >>> to see the L3SM module as consistent with your figure. It may or may
> > >>> not be consistent with your text dependent on the interpretation.
> > >>
> > >> Sure, we can fix that reference, but the authors of L3SM module
> > >> should do their own module classification, as they are the only ones
> > >> that know the intent of the module.
> > >
> > > That is fine. They can classify it, and they can use your
> > > classification system, but only if it can be understood, is
> > > meaningful, and fits what they are trying to achieve :-)
> > >
> > > Your text currently says
> > >   As an example, the Network Service YANG Module defined in
> > >   [YANG-Data-Model-for-L3VPN-service-delivery] provides an abstract
> > >   model for Layer 3 IP VPN service configuration.
> > >
> > > Your text and figures show "Network Service YANG Module" as being something
> > that the OSS/BSS talks (presumably toward a network orchestrator?). Thus
> > the L3SM module does not fit here. And that is why we wrote
> > draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained and included Figure 4 to augment
> > your figure.
> > 
> >  Figure 4 also seems like an _example_ of how one could structure the layers.
> > Personally I have never seen an implementation of a clear split between
> > "Network Service YANG Modules” and "Service YANG Modules”. That’s why we
> > wanted to stay clear of that discussion until there is experience telling
> > us that this is indeed best practice.
> > 
> > > And *finally*, Tianran is concerned that there may be confusion arising
> > from whether the module we reference are "Network service modules", "service
> > delivery modules", "network configuration modules", "network element
> > modules", or "device configuration modules". So many terms, but presumably
> > these modules don't fit into all of the categories! The list is:
> > >
> > > [I-D.dhjain-bess-bgp-l3vpn-yang]
> > 
> > “”"
> >    There are two parts of the BGP L3VPN yang data model.  The first part
> >    of the model defines VRF specific parameters for L3VPN by augmenting
> >    the routing-instance container defined in the routing model [I-
> >    D.ietf-netmod-routing-cfg] and the second part of the model defines
> >    BGP specific parameters for the L3VPN by augmenting the base BGP data
> >    model defined in [I-D.shaikh-idr-bgp-model].
> > “””
> > 
> >  and it’s importing ietf-routing, ietf-interfaces, ietf-interfaces
> > augmenting /rt:routing/ and /if:interfaces/.
> > 
> > From draft-ietf-netmod-yang-model-classification:
> > 
> >  “””
> >    Network Element YANG Modules describe the characteristics of a
> >    network device as defined by the vendor of that device.  The modules
> >    are commonly structured around features of the device, e.g. interface
> >    configuration [RFC7223], OSPF configuration […] “”"
> > 
> >  I would say that ietf-bgp-l3vpn@2016-02-22.yang is a network element YANG
> > module.
> > 
> > > [I-D.ietf-bess-l2vpn-yang]
> > 
> > “””
> >    In this version of the document, one single container, l2vpn, is
> >    defined.  Within the l2vpn container, endpoint-a, endpoint-z and a
> >    list of endpoints are defined. […]
> > “”"
> > 
> > From draft-ietf-netmod-yang-model-classification:
> > 
> > “””
> >    That is, a
> >    service module does not expose the detailed configuration parameters
> >    of all participating network elements and features, but describes an
> >    abstract model that allows instances of the service to be decomposed
> >    into instance data according to the Network Element YANG Modules of
> >    the participating network elements.
> > “””
> > 
> >  I would say that ietf-l2vpn@2016-10-24.yang is a network service YANG
> > module.
> > 
> > > [I-D.ietf-bess-evpn-yang]
> > 
> > 
> >  This draft contains two modules:
> >  - ietf-ethernet-segment@2016-07-08.yang
> >  - ietf-evpn@2016-07-08.yang
> > 
> >  Reading the first paragraph of section 3.1 “Overview”
> > 
> > “””
> >       Two top level module, Ethernet-Segment and EVPN, are defined. The
> >    Ethernet-Segment contains a list of interface to which any Ethernet-
> >    Segment attributes are configured/applied.
> > “””
> > 
> >  …and understanding that the list of interfaces can be located on different
> > network elements, makes me think that these two modules are both examples
> > of network device YANG modules.
> > 
> > > I wonder what type of module you think these are.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Adrian
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > netmod mailing list
> > netmod@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
> _______________________________________________
> OPSAWG mailing list
> OPSAWG@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/opsawg

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>


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From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: "'Tianran Zhou'" <zhoutianran@huawei.com>, "'Carl Moberg \(camoberg\)'" <camoberg@cisco.com>
References: <067201d27270$a08cc790$e1a656b0$@olddog.co.uk> <4248688C-E0AC-4302-A281-0622D824FA4D@voltanet.io> <06fa01d28225$05a25050$10e6f0f0$@olddog.co.uk> <8DACB5AE-56FE-4CB1-BCBE-8D2BD214FFC0@cisco.com> <BBA82579FD347748BEADC4C445EA0F21A22B9D53@NKGEML515-MBX.china.huawei.com>
In-Reply-To: <BBA82579FD347748BEADC4C445EA0F21A22B9D53@NKGEML515-MBX.china.huawei.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 10:23:49 -0000
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Cc: opsawg@ietf.org, draft-ietf-netmod-yang-model-classification@ietf.org, netmod@ietf.org, 'Dean Bogdanovic' <dean@voltanet.io>
Subject: Re: [netmod] Question on draft-ietf-netmod-yang-model-classification
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Hi Tianran,

Nice summary.

I think some of the confusion may be that =
draft-ietf-netmod-yang-model-classification shows "Network Service YANG =
Modules" on the interface between OSS/BSS and the network. But the =
"customer service model" is at a different place in the hierarchy as =
shown in Figure 4 of draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained.

To attend to your specific questions:
> 1. Whether it's necessary to further classify the "Network Service =
YANG
> Module"?

I'm not particularly interested in doing that except so far as is =
necessary to avoid conflict between the two I-Ds. In =
draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained we introduced "customer service =
module" and "service delivery module" because it seemed (to us) that =
there were two different groups of people using the term "service model" =
to describe very different modules.

> 2. What's the well definition of "Network Service YANG Module", =
"customer
> service module", "service delivery module"?

Since draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained introduces the terms =
"customer service module" and "service delivery module" I am going to =
say that I am happy with the definitions in that document. I can say =
that "customer service module" is used consistently with the L3SM and =
L2SM work and so it is probably a stable definition. "Service delivery =
module" is a term we invented to match the definition in =
draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained: I don't think the term is used =
anywhere else, so maybe a better question is "is this a =
useful/meaningful term?"

If the answer to Q1 is that draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained =
should not try to resolve any overlap with =
draft-ietf-netmod-yang-model-classification, then I think the definition =
of "Network Service YANG Module" in =
draft-ietf-netmod-yang-model-classification is fine (with the few tweaks =
Dean and I discussed on the list).

> 3. What's the well position of the above terms in the management =
architecture?

Ah, I like that question. But it makes me ask: where should I look for =
the definitive, state-of-the art management architecture?

Thanks for continuing to drive this issue.

Adrian

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tianran Zhou [mailto:zhoutianran@huawei.com]
> Sent: 14 February 2017 09:54
> To: Carl Moberg (camoberg); adrian@olddog.co.uk
> Cc: opsawg@ietf.org; =
draft-ietf-netmod-yang-model-classification@ietf.org;
> netmod@ietf.org; Dean Bogdanovic
> Subject: RE: Question on draft-ietf-netmod-yang-model-classification
>=20
> Hi,
>=20
> Based on the discussion, here I try to clean up the confusion of the =
two I-Ds.
>=20
> [draft-ietf-netmod-yang-model-classification] classifies the yang =
modules into
> "Network Service YANG Module" and the "Network Element YANG Module".
> And usually, it uses "service module" to imply the "Network Service =
YANG
> Module", i.e., "Network" here only want to limit the scope to network =
related
> modules. One example of "Network Service YANG Module" is =
[draft-ietf-l3sm-
> l3vpn-service-model].
> The authors do not want to further classify the service module into =
more layers,
> until more operational practice comes.
>=20
> [draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained] further classifies the =
service module
> into "customer service module" and the "service delivery module". I =
think this is
> based on the chair work on L3SM and L2SM WG and discussion with =
operators.
> But the document think the "Network Service YANG Module" defined in =
[draft-
> ietf-netmod-yang-model-classification] is "service delivery module" =
not include
> the "customer service module". The =
[draft-ietf-l3sm-l3vpn-service-model] is
> actually the "customer service module".
>=20
> Here comes the question:
> 1. Whether it's necessary to further classify the "Network Service =
YANG
> Module"?
> 2. What's the well definition of "Network Service YANG Module", =
"customer
> service module", "service delivery module"?
> 3. What's the well position of the above terms in the management =
architecture?
>=20
> Good to see if we can solve the conflicts, these two I-Ds can =
complement each
> other.
>=20
> Best,
> Tianran
>=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: netmod [mailto:netmod-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Carl =
Moberg
> > (camoberg)
> > Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2017 12:48 AM
> > To: adrian@olddog.co.uk
> > Cc: opsawg@ietf.org;
> > draft-ietf-netmod-yang-model-classification@ietf.org; =
netmod@ietf.org;
> > Dean Bogdanovic
> > Subject: Re: [netmod] Question on
> > draft-ietf-netmod-yang-model-classification
> >
> > Team,
> >
> >  Inline below.
> >
> > > On Feb 8, 2017, at 8:04 AM, Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk> =
wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Dean,
> > >
> > > I've been processing your response and the continuing thread with =
you
> > and Tianran.
> > >
> > >>> We've been trying to ensure that
> > >>> draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained is consistent with the
> > >>> latest version of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-model-classification. =
In
> > >>> discussions with Tianran a question has come up.
> > >>>
> > >>> In section 2 you have a nice definition of Network Service YANG
> > >>> Modules and this definition maps nicely to our definition of =
"service
> > delivery models".
> > >>> Furthermore, your figure 1 shows Network Service YANG Modules on =
the
> > >>> interface between OSS/BSS and the various network services.
> > >>>
> > >>> We have further defined "customer service models" at a higher =
layer
> > >>> still. That is, on the interface to the customer. This (of =
course?)
> > >>> assumes that the OSS/BSS is not customer code :-)
> > >>>
> > >>> However, your discussion of Network Service YANG Modules in =
section
> > >>> 2.1 seems slightly at odds, although this may be just ambiguity.
> > >>>
> > >>> For example, when you say, "Network Service YANG Modules =
describe
> > >>> the characteristics of a service, as agreed upon with consumers =
of that
> > service,"
> > >>> this is not the same as, "This model is used in the discussion
> > >>> between a customer and a service provide to describe the =
characteristics
> > of a service."
> > >>> That is, the former case could be arrived at after processing =
based
> > >>> on the latter case - processing that we have called "service
> > >>> orchestration" but might (of course) be what leads to the =
operator poking
> > the OSS/BSS.
> > >>
> > >> Adrian, I can see the ambiguity. The point of service module is =
to be
> > >> consumed by the customer and there can be some modifications of =
the
> > >> service module to adapt to the customer specifics.
> > >
> > > So far I agree with your email and therefore not with your =
document. The
> > OSS/BSS is not, IMHO, a tool used by the customer.
> > >
> > > Please see Figure 3 in =
draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained-05.txt
> > that shows the customer distinct from the OSS/BSS.
> >
> >  IMHO figure 3 in the draft is what it says, an _example_ of a set =
of
> > relationships between the constituent parts of a =
provisioning/activation
> > system.
> >
> >  In all real-world applications, customers are several layers above =
the
> > =E2=80=9Cservice orchestrator=E2=80=9D and adjacent systems. But the =
YANG model nevertheless
> > serves the purpose of describing the structure of the service for =
customer
> > (outside the SP) or other consuming parties (e.g. the OSS/BSS =
teams).
> >
> > >>> This might all be fine and good, but later in the same section =
you
> > >>> say "Network Service YANG Modules define service models to be
> > >>> consumed by external systems.
> > >>> These modules are commonly designed, developed and deployed by
> > >>> network infrastructure teams." And there you introduce two terms
> > >>> that are previously undefined and only server to add ambiguity.
> > >>> Specifically "external to what?" I could make and argument that =
the
> > >>> OSS is developed and deployed by network infrastructure teams, =
ad also
> > that the OSS is external to the network itself.
> > >>
> > >> Agree that external systems are not defined and this text has to =
be
> > >> clarified. The external systems can be OSS and BSS.
> > >
> > > If we relabelled our "Service Delivery Model" as "Network Service =
Model"
> > would that be consistent?
> > >
> > > That is, in any case, to say that the OSS/BSS does not talk =
directly to
> > the devices.
> >
> >  I think that would help. And yes, the intent of =
=E2=80=9Cexternal=E2=80=9D was to say =E2=80=9Cother
> > than=E2=80=9D, rather than =E2=80=9Coutside of the company=E2=80=9D =
(or something like that).
> >
> > >>> And, in between these two quoted pieces of text, you have...
> > >>>
> > >>>  As an example, the Network Service YANG Module defined in
> > >>> [YANG-Data-Model-for-L3VPN-service-delivery] provides an =
abstract
> > >>> model for Layer 3 IP VPN service configuration.
> > >>
> > >> My question is where do you see the L3SM model above or below =
OSS?
> > >
> > > Well, look at the figure in section 5 of
> > > draft-ietf-l3sm-l3vpn-service-model-19.txt
> > >
> > > It is logically higher, but OSS/BSS are not "in the flow" as they =
are
> > legacy components in a softwarized world.
> > > However, per our pictures, OSS/BSS should use the same set of
> models/modules
> > as used by the "service orchestrator=E2=80=9D.
> >
> >  This is a little different in different SPs. Many of them consider =
the
> > RFS-style service definition as laid out in L3SM as something that =
is owned
> > by the infratrstucture and ordered through the OSS/BSS layer (the =
order
> > manager to be more precise).
> >
> > >> Because there are some nuances in the service module, but at the =
end
> > >> we decided not to do sub classification
> > >
> > > Mutter, mutter.
> > > In the document, you talk about "network service modules" not =
"service
> > modules" and only trim to "service module" in the text implying that =
you
> > always actually mean "network service module=E2=80=9D.
> >
> >  We always mean =E2=80=9Cnetwork service models=E2=80=9D, there are =
many =E2=80=9Cservice models=E2=80=9D
> > out there that have little or nothing to do with the network. And I =
would
> > like to not go there :-)
> >
> > >> one is the business and one technical service.
> > >>
> > >> When i read the YANG-Data-Model-for-L3VPN-service-delivery, it =
looked
> > >> to me much more like a technical model, then the business model, =
as
> > >> didn=E2=80=99t see SLA definitions to track the business =
parameters of the service
> > use.
> > >
> > > It is certainly not a business model and does not include SLAs. =
Other
> > people have far more experience working on these things (TMF, MEF, =
...)
> > and it is not an IETF core competence. Our intention is that our =
module
> > can be augmented or accompanied by other modules in order to create =
a
> business
> > model, acknowledging that commercial details (even including SLAs) =
will
> > vary from one operator to another, but that the core technical =
description
> > of the service can be (and, it turns out, is) common across multiple
> > providers.
> > >
> > > We even wrote text in Section 5 of draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-
> explained
> > to help with this.
> > >
> > >>> Per my other email, this reference needs to be fixed. But I =
struggle
> > >>> to see the L3SM module as consistent with your figure. It may or =
may
> > >>> not be consistent with your text dependent on the =
interpretation.
> > >>
> > >> Sure, we can fix that reference, but the authors of L3SM module
> > >> should do their own module classification, as they are the only =
ones
> > >> that know the intent of the module.
> > >
> > > That is fine. They can classify it, and they can use your
> > > classification system, but only if it can be understood, is
> > > meaningful, and fits what they are trying to achieve :-)
> > >
> > > Your text currently says
> > >   As an example, the Network Service YANG Module defined in
> > >   [YANG-Data-Model-for-L3VPN-service-delivery] provides an =
abstract
> > >   model for Layer 3 IP VPN service configuration.
> > >
> > > Your text and figures show "Network Service YANG Module" as being
> something
> > that the OSS/BSS talks (presumably toward a network orchestrator?). =
Thus
> > the L3SM module does not fit here. And that is why we wrote
> > draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained and included Figure 4 to =
augment
> > your figure.
> >
> >  Figure 4 also seems like an _example_ of how one could structure =
the layers.
> > Personally I have never seen an implementation of a clear split =
between
> > "Network Service YANG Modules=E2=80=9D and "Service YANG =
Modules=E2=80=9D. That=E2=80=99s why we
> > wanted to stay clear of that discussion until there is experience =
telling
> > us that this is indeed best practice.
> >
> > > And *finally*, Tianran is concerned that there may be confusion =
arising
> > from whether the module we reference are "Network service modules",
> "service
> > delivery modules", "network configuration modules", "network element
> > modules", or "device configuration modules". So many terms, but =
presumably
> > these modules don't fit into all of the categories! The list is:
> > >
> > > [I-D.dhjain-bess-bgp-l3vpn-yang]
> >
> > =E2=80=9C=E2=80=9D"
> >    There are two parts of the BGP L3VPN yang data model.  The first =
part
> >    of the model defines VRF specific parameters for L3VPN by =
augmenting
> >    the routing-instance container defined in the routing model [I-
> >    D.ietf-netmod-routing-cfg] and the second part of the model =
defines
> >    BGP specific parameters for the L3VPN by augmenting the base BGP =
data
> >    model defined in [I-D.shaikh-idr-bgp-model].
> > =E2=80=9C=E2=80=9D=E2=80=9D
> >
> >  and it=E2=80=99s importing ietf-routing, ietf-interfaces, =
ietf-interfaces
> > augmenting /rt:routing/ and /if:interfaces/.
> >
> > From draft-ietf-netmod-yang-model-classification:
> >
> >  =E2=80=9C=E2=80=9D=E2=80=9D
> >    Network Element YANG Modules describe the characteristics of a
> >    network device as defined by the vendor of that device.  The =
modules
> >    are commonly structured around features of the device, e.g. =
interface
> >    configuration [RFC7223], OSPF configuration [=E2=80=A6] =
=E2=80=9C=E2=80=9D"
> >
> >  I would say that ietf-bgp-l3vpn@2016-02-22.yang is a network =
element YANG
> > module.
> >
> > > [I-D.ietf-bess-l2vpn-yang]
> >
> > =E2=80=9C=E2=80=9D=E2=80=9D
> >    In this version of the document, one single container, l2vpn, is
> >    defined.  Within the l2vpn container, endpoint-a, endpoint-z and =
a
> >    list of endpoints are defined. [=E2=80=A6]
> > =E2=80=9C=E2=80=9D"
> >
> > From draft-ietf-netmod-yang-model-classification:
> >
> > =E2=80=9C=E2=80=9D=E2=80=9D
> >    That is, a
> >    service module does not expose the detailed configuration =
parameters
> >    of all participating network elements and features, but describes =
an
> >    abstract model that allows instances of the service to be =
decomposed
> >    into instance data according to the Network Element YANG Modules =
of
> >    the participating network elements.
> > =E2=80=9C=E2=80=9D=E2=80=9D
> >
> >  I would say that ietf-l2vpn@2016-10-24.yang is a network service =
YANG
> > module.
> >
> > > [I-D.ietf-bess-evpn-yang]
> >
> >
> >  This draft contains two modules:
> >  - ietf-ethernet-segment@2016-07-08.yang
> >  - ietf-evpn@2016-07-08.yang
> >
> >  Reading the first paragraph of section 3.1 =
=E2=80=9COverview=E2=80=9D
> >
> > =E2=80=9C=E2=80=9D=E2=80=9D
> >       Two top level module, Ethernet-Segment and EVPN, are defined. =
The
> >    Ethernet-Segment contains a list of interface to which any =
Ethernet-
> >    Segment attributes are configured/applied.
> > =E2=80=9C=E2=80=9D=E2=80=9D
> >
> >  =E2=80=A6and understanding that the list of interfaces can be =
located on different
> > network elements, makes me think that these two modules are both =
examples
> > of network device YANG modules.
> >
> > > I wonder what type of module you think these are.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Adrian
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > netmod mailing list
> > netmod@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod


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From: "Martin Ciglan -X (mciglan - PANTHEON TECHNOLOGIES at Cisco)" <mciglan@cisco.com>
To: "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: YANG - valid enumeration names
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Subject: [netmod] YANG - valid enumeration names
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--_000_148707518498114170ciscocom_
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Hi all


RFC says:


All assigned names in an enumeration MUST be unique.?


We're wondering here, if something like this is valid YANG snippet:


...
leaf foo {
type enumeration {
enum Foo;
enum foo;
}
}
...


  Thanks for help


       Martin





--_000_148707518498114170ciscocom_
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<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-=
2">
<style type=3D"text/css" style=3D"display:none"><!-- p { margin-top: 0px; m=
argin-bottom: 0px; }--></style>
</head>
<body dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:#000000;background-color:#F=
FFFFF;font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;">
<p>Hi all<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: =
16px;">RFC says:<br>
</p>
<p style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: =
16px;"><br>
</p>
<p style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: =
16px;"><strong>All assigned names in an enumeration MUST be unique.&#8203;<=
/strong><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>We're wondering here, if something like this is valid YANG snippet:<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><span class=3D"com-google-gwtexpui-safehtml-client-SafeHtmlCss-wikiPreFo=
rmat" style=3D"white-space: pre; font-family: 'Lucida Console', 'Lucida San=
s Typewriter', Monaco, monospace; font-size: small; background-color: rgb(2=
52, 250, 150);">...</span><br style=3D"font-family: sans-serif; font-size: =
small; white-space: pre-wrap; background-color: rgb(252, 250, 150);">
<span class=3D"com-google-gwtexpui-safehtml-client-SafeHtmlCss-wikiPreForma=
t" style=3D"white-space: pre; font-family: 'Lucida Console', 'Lucida Sans T=
ypewriter', Monaco, monospace; font-size: small; background-color: rgb(252,=
 250, 150);">leaf foo {</span><br style=3D"font-family: sans-serif; font-si=
ze: small; white-space: pre-wrap; background-color: rgb(252, 250, 150);">
<span class=3D"com-google-gwtexpui-safehtml-client-SafeHtmlCss-wikiPreForma=
t" style=3D"white-space: pre; font-family: 'Lucida Console', 'Lucida Sans T=
ypewriter', Monaco, monospace; font-size: small; background-color: rgb(252,=
 250, 150);">type enumeration {</span><br style=3D"font-family: sans-serif;=
 font-size: small; white-space: pre-wrap; background-color: rgb(252, 250, 1=
50);">
<span class=3D"com-google-gwtexpui-safehtml-client-SafeHtmlCss-wikiPreForma=
t" style=3D"white-space: pre; font-family: 'Lucida Console', 'Lucida Sans T=
ypewriter', Monaco, monospace; font-size: small; background-color: rgb(252,=
 250, 150);">enum Foo;</span><br style=3D"font-family: sans-serif; font-siz=
e: small; white-space: pre-wrap; background-color: rgb(252, 250, 150);">
<span class=3D"com-google-gwtexpui-safehtml-client-SafeHtmlCss-wikiPreForma=
t" style=3D"white-space: pre; font-family: 'Lucida Console', 'Lucida Sans T=
ypewriter', Monaco, monospace; font-size: small; background-color: rgb(252,=
 250, 150);">enum foo;</span><br style=3D"font-family: sans-serif; font-siz=
e: small; white-space: pre-wrap; background-color: rgb(252, 250, 150);">
<span class=3D"com-google-gwtexpui-safehtml-client-SafeHtmlCss-wikiPreForma=
t" style=3D"white-space: pre; font-family: 'Lucida Console', 'Lucida Sans T=
ypewriter', Monaco, monospace; font-size: small; background-color: rgb(252,=
 250, 150);">}</span><br style=3D"font-family: sans-serif; font-size: small=
; white-space: pre-wrap; background-color: rgb(252, 250, 150);">
<span class=3D"com-google-gwtexpui-safehtml-client-SafeHtmlCss-wikiPreForma=
t" style=3D"white-space: pre; font-family: 'Lucida Console', 'Lucida Sans T=
ypewriter', Monaco, monospace; font-size: small; background-color: rgb(252,=
 250, 150);">}</span><br style=3D"font-family: sans-serif; font-size: small=
; white-space: pre-wrap; background-color: rgb(252, 250, 150);">
<span class=3D"com-google-gwtexpui-safehtml-client-SafeHtmlCss-wikiPreForma=
t" style=3D"white-space: pre; font-family: 'Lucida Console', 'Lucida Sans T=
ypewriter', Monaco, monospace; font-size: small; background-color: rgb(252,=
 250, 150);">...</span><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>&nbsp; Thanks for help<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Martin<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
</body>
</html>

--_000_148707518498114170ciscocom_--


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"Martin Ciglan -X (mciglan - PANTHEON TECHNOLOGIES at Cisco)" <mciglan@cisco.com> wrote:
> Hi all
> 
> 
> RFC says:
> 
> 
> All assigned names in an enumeration MUST be unique.?
> 
> 
> We're wondering here, if something like this is valid YANG snippet:
> 
> 
> ...
> leaf foo {
> type enumeration {
> enum Foo;
> enum foo;
> }
> }

Yes this is valid.


/martin


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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the NETCONF Data Modeling Language of the IETF.

        Title           : A YANG Data Model for Syslog Configuration
        Authors         : Clyde Wildes
                          Kiran Koushik
	Filename        : draft-ietf-netmod-syslog-model-12.txt
	Pages           : 30
	Date            : 2017-02-14

Abstract:
   This document describes a data model for the configuration of syslog.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-syslog-model/

There's also a htmlized version available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netmod-syslog-model-12

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-netmod-syslog-model-12


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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Hi all

RFC says:


There MUST NOT be any circular chains of imports.  For example, if module "=
a" imports module "b", "b" cannot import "a".


Does same apply to includes too?


   Thanks


        Martin



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<p>Hi all<br>
<br>
RFC says:<br>
<br>
</p>
<p>There MUST NOT be any circular chains of imports. &nbsp;For example, if&=
nbsp;module &quot;a&quot; imports module &quot;b&quot;, &quot;b&quot; canno=
t import &quot;a&quot;.<br>
<br>
</p>
<p>Does same apply to includes too?&nbsp;</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>&nbsp; &nbsp;Thanks<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Martin<br>
<br>
<br>
</p>
</body>
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From: "Clyde Wildes (cwildes)" <cwildes@cisco.com>
To: "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [netmod] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-netmod-syslog-model-11
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Subject: Re: [netmod] circular chains - imports vs includes
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> On 14 Feb 2017, at 14:30, Martin Ciglan -X (mciglan - PANTHEON =
TECHNOLOGIES at Cisco) <mciglan@cisco.com> wrote:
>=20
> Hi all
>=20
> RFC says:
>=20
> There MUST NOT be any circular chains of imports.  For example, if =
module "a" imports module "b", "b" cannot import "a".
>=20
> Does same apply to includes too?

Not in YANG 1.1 because "include" in a submodule is essentially a no-op =
- it is syntactically permitted only for compatibility with YANG 1.0.

Lada

> =20
>=20
>    Thanks
>=20
>         Martin
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
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> netmod@ietf.org
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From: "Martin Ciglan -X (mciglan - PANTHEON TECHNOLOGIES at Cisco)" <mciglan@cisco.com>
To: "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Yang 1.1 change:  Allow type "empty" in a key.
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Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 13:48:42 +0000
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Subject: [netmod] Yang 1.1 change:  Allow type "empty" in a key.
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Hi all


Yang 1.1 change:  Allow type "empty" in a key.


What is the meaning of this change? We're interested from implementation po=
int of view.


  Thanks


       Martin


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<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-=
2">
<style type=3D"text/css" style=3D"display:none"><!-- p { margin-top: 0px; m=
argin-bottom: 0px; }--></style>
</head>
<body dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:#000000;background-color:#F=
FFFFF;font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;">
<p>Hi all<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Yang 1.1 change:&nbsp;<strong>&nbsp;Allow type &quot;empty&quot; in a ke=
y.<br>
</strong><br>
</p>
<p>What is the meaning of this change? We're interested from implementation=
 point of view.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>&nbsp; Thanks</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Martin<br>
<br>
</p>
</body>
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Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com> writes:

> Hi tags draft authors,

> On 09/02/2017 12:28, Lou Berger wrote:
>>
>> I'm personally more excited by the use of tags as additional module
>> meta-data accessible via yang library. But also see no reason to
>> preclude this possible  (even if unlikely) usage.
>
> When the idea of tags was presented as IETF, I had assumed that tags
> would be versioned/managed entirely independently from the YANG modules
> that the tags apply to.

Well they are called "tags" after all.  Normally one applies a tag to
something (i.e., tags it. :)

> For a while, there was a desire to organize YANG modules by their
> hierarchical path location in the schema tree.  My concern with this
> approach, is that there needs to be sufficient foresight to get that
> structure right now, because it will be very painful to change it in
> future.  Unfortunately things have a habit of evolving over time, and
> hence choosing the right structure now such that is still the right
> structure in 25 years seems somewhat unlikely.
>
> I was thinking that tags offers a better solution to this problem, that
> allows the structure to be a bit more dynamic, evolving over time.  I.e.
> YANG modules for features can sit at (or near to) the top level of the
> schema tree, and tags can then be used to group those modules into
> sensible organizations that can evolve, so that when clients are trying
> to sort through all the different YANG models that are available, they
> have more hope than looking at a flat list.

We in fact plan to do this with the device meta model. I believe this
was in the presentation too, but it might not have been very obvious.

> In this scenario, I think that it is better if the YANG module
> definitions themselves don't specify the tags because then
> adding/removing/changing them is going to be a pain.  If this tag
> information was managed separately (e.g. in something like YANG catalog)
> then it seems easier for the tags to evolve over time.

I want to be sure I understand you here. We've defined 3 places that a
tag could be defined (comes into existence), the module designer, the
vendor and the local user. When you say "module defines" are you talking
about the first case, or are you talking about where a tag resides after
it is created? For the latter that was our intention with the yang
library augmentation. For the former case consider e.g., IS-IS, I think
the authors of that module know and are the appropriate folks to add
categorization tags such as "ietf:routing", "ietf:protocol",
"ietf:routing:igp" or whatever. Nothing would keep the user or vendor
from removing these or adding their own tags for the same purpose as
well if they found these inappropriate or incorrect.

> But I also had not really realized that the tags information would
> necessarily reach down to the devices.  I.e. I hadn't envisaged Chris's
> example of querying the hello-time via an IGP package tag. Instead, I
> had thought of tags making a YANG catalog website more useful.  E.g.
> when browsing for YANG modules, be able to restrict the query to just
> the modules that are tagged as "standard" + "IGP", etc.
>
> So, I think that this draft may benefit with a bit more description of
> the envisaged use cases, and also about how tags are envisaged to evolve
> once they have been defined.

Well one goal I had with tags was to allow for them to be used in
the future in ways we may not have anticipated. Therefore
we specifically did not lock down how they are used or what they are
used for. That said, examples of how one might use could be helpful.

Thanks,
Chris.

> Thanks,
> Rob
>
>>
>> Lou
>>
>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Chris.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> netmod mailing list
>> netmod@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
>> .
>>

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On 14/02/2017 14:08, Christian Hopps wrote:
> Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com> writes:
>
>> Hi tags draft authors,
>> On 09/02/2017 12:28, Lou Berger wrote:
>>> I'm personally more excited by the use of tags as additional module
>>> meta-data accessible via yang library. But also see no reason to
>>> preclude this possible  (even if unlikely) usage.
>> When the idea of tags was presented as IETF, I had assumed that tags
>> would be versioned/managed entirely independently from the YANG modules
>> that the tags apply to.
> Well they are called "tags" after all.  Normally one applies a tag to
> something (i.e., tags it. :)
Of course, I still mean that the tags are applied to the module, but 
just that the place where that relationship is defined and maintained is 
not in the module itself. I.e. some central locations that map from 
unique module name to associated metadata tags.

A roughly equivalent example might be perhaps like CDDB, where a program 
can take a CD track, and go and fetch the associated metadata from some 
known location without the metadata being embedded in the CD track itself.


>
>> For a while, there was a desire to organize YANG modules by their
>> hierarchical path location in the schema tree.  My concern with this
>> approach, is that there needs to be sufficient foresight to get that
>> structure right now, because it will be very painful to change it in
>> future.  Unfortunately things have a habit of evolving over time, and
>> hence choosing the right structure now such that is still the right
>> structure in 25 years seems somewhat unlikely.
>>
>> I was thinking that tags offers a better solution to this problem, that
>> allows the structure to be a bit more dynamic, evolving over time.  I.e.
>> YANG modules for features can sit at (or near to) the top level of the
>> schema tree, and tags can then be used to group those modules into
>> sensible organizations that can evolve, so that when clients are trying
>> to sort through all the different YANG models that are available, they
>> have more hope than looking at a flat list.
> We in fact plan to do this with the device meta model. I believe this
> was in the presentation too, but it might not have been very obvious.
>
>> In this scenario, I think that it is better if the YANG module
>> definitions themselves don't specify the tags because then
>> adding/removing/changing them is going to be a pain.  If this tag
>> information was managed separately (e.g. in something like YANG catalog)
>> then it seems easier for the tags to evolve over time.
> I want to be sure I understand you here. We've defined 3 places that a
> tag could be defined (comes into existence), the module designer, the
> vendor and the local user. When you say "module defines" are you talking
> about the first case, or are you talking about where a tag resides after
> it is created?
I was talking meaning the first case, where the tags are embedded in the 
definition of a module, that itself is embedded in a published standard.

>   For the latter that was our intention with the yang
> library augmentation. For the former case consider e.g., IS-IS, I think
> the authors of that module know and are the appropriate folks to add
> categorization tags such as "ietf:routing", "ietf:protocol",
> "ietf:routing:igp" or whatever.
OK, today, it might seem obvious that the tags should be routing, 
protocol, igp, etc.  But in the future that choice of categorization 
might not be the best, but it will be resistant to change because some 
of the tag definitions are embedded in the modules themselves.

Some of your suggested tags identify areas of IETF.  But what if those 
areas change over time, of the associated of drafts/WGs to particular 
areas changes.  A YANG module could end up being tagged with a stale 
area, and I doubt that anyone would want to update a standard to just 
update the tags.

So, I was wondering if it wouldn't be better to not allow tags to be 
embedded in the modules at all.  Instead, if this was maintained in a 
central database, e.g. like http://www.yangcatalog.org/, then the module 
authors could always email the maintainers of YANG catalog to agree with 
them how the module could most usefully be tagged in the catalog.  If 
this needs to change over time then this would seem to be much easier to 
update.



>   Nothing would keep the user or vendor
> from removing these or adding their own tags for the same purpose as
> well if they found these inappropriate or incorrect.
OK, yes.  But I wasn't thinking so much of a particular vendor or 
operator, but more if the industry in general (or perhaps just the 
maintainers of the catalog) decided that different categorization would 
be more appropriate over time.

Thanks,
Rob

>
>> But I also had not really realized that the tags information would
>> necessarily reach down to the devices.  I.e. I hadn't envisaged Chris's
>> example of querying the hello-time via an IGP package tag. Instead, I
>> had thought of tags making a YANG catalog website more useful.  E.g.
>> when browsing for YANG modules, be able to restrict the query to just
>> the modules that are tagged as "standard" + "IGP", etc.
>>
>> So, I think that this draft may benefit with a bit more description of
>> the envisaged use cases, and also about how tags are envisaged to evolve
>> once they have been defined.
> Well one goal I had with tags was to allow for them to be used in
> the future in ways we may not have anticipated. Therefore
> we specifically did not lock down how they are used or what they are
> used for. That said, examples of how one might use could be helpful.
>
> Thanks,
> Chris.
>
>> Thanks,
>> Rob
>>
>>> Lou
>>>
>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Chris.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> netmod mailing list
>>> netmod@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
>>> .
>>>


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From: Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>
To: Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com>
In-reply-to: <d13c0b5c-edb5-a6c1-a042-e1203ced5423@cisco.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 11:30:44 -0500
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Cc: netmod@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [netmod] Module tags
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--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/plain


Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com> writes:

> On 14/02/2017 14:08, Christian Hopps wrote:
>> Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com> writes:
>>
>>> Hi tags draft authors,
>>> On 09/02/2017 12:28, Lou Berger wrote:
>>>> I'm personally more excited by the use of tags as additional module
>>>> meta-data accessible via yang library. But also see no reason to
>>>> preclude this possible  (even if unlikely) usage.
>>> When the idea of tags was presented as IETF, I had assumed that tags
>>> would be versioned/managed entirely independently from the YANG modules
>>> that the tags apply to.
>> Well they are called "tags" after all.  Normally one applies a tag to
>> something (i.e., tags it. :)
> Of course, I still mean that the tags are applied to the module, but
> just that the place where that relationship is defined and maintained is
> not in the module itself. I.e. some central locations that map from
> unique module name to associated metadata tags.
>
> A roughly equivalent example might be perhaps like CDDB, where a program
> can take a CD track, and go and fetch the associated metadata from some
> known location without the metadata being embedded in the CD track itself.

Sure, but that is setup that way b/c the CD data is seen as read only
right? I don't think this is even the normal way to tag things. There
are tons of examples of the opposite where the item itself is tagged
(XML attributes, social media's #hashtags, cow ears, ...).

>>> For a while, there was a desire to organize YANG modules by their
>>> hierarchical path location in the schema tree.  My concern with this
>>> approach, is that there needs to be sufficient foresight to get that
>>> structure right now, because it will be very painful to change it in
>>> future.  Unfortunately things have a habit of evolving over time, and
>>> hence choosing the right structure now such that is still the right
>>> structure in 25 years seems somewhat unlikely.
>>>
>>> I was thinking that tags offers a better solution to this problem, that
>>> allows the structure to be a bit more dynamic, evolving over time.  I.e.
>>> YANG modules for features can sit at (or near to) the top level of the
>>> schema tree, and tags can then be used to group those modules into
>>> sensible organizations that can evolve, so that when clients are trying
>>> to sort through all the different YANG models that are available, they
>>> have more hope than looking at a flat list.
>> We in fact plan to do this with the device meta model. I believe this
>> was in the presentation too, but it might not have been very obvious.
>>
>>> In this scenario, I think that it is better if the YANG module
>>> definitions themselves don't specify the tags because then
>>> adding/removing/changing them is going to be a pain.  If this tag
>>> information was managed separately (e.g. in something like YANG catalog)
>>> then it seems easier for the tags to evolve over time.
>> I want to be sure I understand you here. We've defined 3 places that a
>> tag could be defined (comes into existence), the module designer, the
>> vendor and the local user. When you say "module defines" are you talking
>> about the first case, or are you talking about where a tag resides after
>> it is created?
> I was talking meaning the first case, where the tags are embedded in the
> definition of a module, that itself is embedded in a published standard.
>
>>   For the latter that was our intention with the yang
>> library augmentation. For the former case consider e.g., IS-IS, I think
>> the authors of that module know and are the appropriate folks to add
>> categorization tags such as "ietf:routing", "ietf:protocol",
>> "ietf:routing:igp" or whatever.
> OK, today, it might seem obvious that the tags should be routing,
> protocol, igp, etc.  But in the future that choice of categorization
> might not be the best, but it will be resistant to change because some
> of the tag definitions are embedded in the modules themselves.
>
> Some of your suggested tags identify areas of IETF.  But what if those
> areas change over time, of the associated of drafts/WGs to particular
> areas changes.  A YANG module could end up being tagged with a stale
> area, and I doubt that anyone would want to update a standard to just
> update the tags.

Lou didn't like the area tags either, so perhaps those are just poor
initial choices, but "routing" (i.e., std tag "ietf:routing") is a fine
tag I think, so maybe we need to move more to this rather than the ietf
area groupings.

> So, I was wondering if it wouldn't be better to not allow tags to be
> embedded in the modules at all.  Instead, if this was maintained in a
> central database, e.g. like http://www.yangcatalog.org/, then the module
> authors could always email the maintainers of YANG catalog to agree with
> them how the module could most usefully be tagged in the catalog.  If
> this needs to change over time then this would seem to be much easier to
> update.

And then what happens to the modules that are deployed? I like having
some set of tags than are paired directly with the standardized module
specifically b/c they do not change.

We did leave things open, so you could also create a yang catalog tag
prefix and service as well.

Thanks,
Chris.

>>   Nothing would keep the user or vendor
>> from removing these or adding their own tags for the same purpose as
>> well if they found these inappropriate or incorrect.
> OK, yes.  But I wasn't thinking so much of a particular vendor or
> operator, but more if the industry in general (or perhaps just the
> maintainers of the catalog) decided that different categorization would
> be more appropriate over time.
>
> Thanks,
> Rob
>
>>
>>> But I also had not really realized that the tags information would
>>> necessarily reach down to the devices.  I.e. I hadn't envisaged Chris's
>>> example of querying the hello-time via an IGP package tag. Instead, I
>>> had thought of tags making a YANG catalog website more useful.  E.g.
>>> when browsing for YANG modules, be able to restrict the query to just
>>> the modules that are tagged as "standard" + "IGP", etc.
>>>
>>> So, I think that this draft may benefit with a bit more description of
>>> the envisaged use cases, and also about how tags are envisaged to evolve
>>> once they have been defined.
>> Well one goal I had with tags was to allow for them to be used in
>> the future in ways we may not have anticipated. Therefore
>> we specifically did not lock down how they are used or what they are
>> used for. That said, examples of how one might use could be helpful.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Chris.
>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Rob
>>>
>>>> Lou
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Chris.
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> netmod mailing list
>>>> netmod@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
>>>> .
>>>>

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From: Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [netmod] Module tags
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On 14/02/2017 16:30, Christian Hopps wrote:
> Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com> writes:
>
>> On 14/02/2017 14:08, Christian Hopps wrote:
>>> Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> Hi tags draft authors,
>>>> On 09/02/2017 12:28, Lou Berger wrote:
>>>>> I'm personally more excited by the use of tags as additional module
>>>>> meta-data accessible via yang library. But also see no reason to
>>>>> preclude this possible  (even if unlikely) usage.
>>>> When the idea of tags was presented as IETF, I had assumed that tags
>>>> would be versioned/managed entirely independently from the YANG modules
>>>> that the tags apply to.
>>> Well they are called "tags" after all.  Normally one applies a tag to
>>> something (i.e., tags it. :)
>> Of course, I still mean that the tags are applied to the module, but
>> just that the place where that relationship is defined and maintained is
>> not in the module itself. I.e. some central locations that map from
>> unique module name to associated metadata tags.
>>
>> A roughly equivalent example might be perhaps like CDDB, where a program
>> can take a CD track, and go and fetch the associated metadata from some
>> known location without the metadata being embedded in the CD track itself.
> Sure, but that is setup that way b/c the CD data is seen as read only
> right? I don't think this is even the normal way to tag things. There
> are tons of examples of the opposite where the item itself is tagged
> (XML attributes, social media's #hashtags, cow ears, ...).
It will be easier to change the tag on a cow ear than on a standardized 
YANG module, but I like your example ;-)

It is outside my area of expertise, but I expect that most of the 
meta-data associated with a cow is not attached to the cow itself, but 
stored in some database somewhere.  The cow ear tag is more so that you 
can identify the right cow in the database.

>
>>>> For a while, there was a desire to organize YANG modules by their
>>>> hierarchical path location in the schema tree.  My concern with this
>>>> approach, is that there needs to be sufficient foresight to get that
>>>> structure right now, because it will be very painful to change it in
>>>> future.  Unfortunately things have a habit of evolving over time, and
>>>> hence choosing the right structure now such that is still the right
>>>> structure in 25 years seems somewhat unlikely.
>>>>
>>>> I was thinking that tags offers a better solution to this problem, that
>>>> allows the structure to be a bit more dynamic, evolving over time.  I.e.
>>>> YANG modules for features can sit at (or near to) the top level of the
>>>> schema tree, and tags can then be used to group those modules into
>>>> sensible organizations that can evolve, so that when clients are trying
>>>> to sort through all the different YANG models that are available, they
>>>> have more hope than looking at a flat list.
>>> We in fact plan to do this with the device meta model. I believe this
>>> was in the presentation too, but it might not have been very obvious.
>>>
>>>> In this scenario, I think that it is better if the YANG module
>>>> definitions themselves don't specify the tags because then
>>>> adding/removing/changing them is going to be a pain.  If this tag
>>>> information was managed separately (e.g. in something like YANG catalog)
>>>> then it seems easier for the tags to evolve over time.
>>> I want to be sure I understand you here. We've defined 3 places that a
>>> tag could be defined (comes into existence), the module designer, the
>>> vendor and the local user. When you say "module defines" are you talking
>>> about the first case, or are you talking about where a tag resides after
>>> it is created?
>> I was talking meaning the first case, where the tags are embedded in the
>> definition of a module, that itself is embedded in a published standard.
>>
>>>    For the latter that was our intention with the yang
>>> library augmentation. For the former case consider e.g., IS-IS, I think
>>> the authors of that module know and are the appropriate folks to add
>>> categorization tags such as "ietf:routing", "ietf:protocol",
>>> "ietf:routing:igp" or whatever.
>> OK, today, it might seem obvious that the tags should be routing,
>> protocol, igp, etc.  But in the future that choice of categorization
>> might not be the best, but it will be resistant to change because some
>> of the tag definitions are embedded in the modules themselves.
>>
>> Some of your suggested tags identify areas of IETF.  But what if those
>> areas change over time, of the associated of drafts/WGs to particular
>> areas changes.  A YANG module could end up being tagged with a stale
>> area, and I doubt that anyone would want to update a standard to just
>> update the tags.
> Lou didn't like the area tags either, so perhaps those are just poor
> initial choices, but "routing" (i.e., std tag "ietf:routing") is a fine
> tag I think, so maybe we need to move more to this rather than the ietf
> area groupings.
I think that the WG area tags could be useful for someone that is trying 
to categorize YANG models by IETF area.    But my main point is that if 
we decided that they were a good idea now, but not such a great idea in 
5 years time, going back and changing (or removing) them is painful if 
they are baked into the models.

>
>> So, I was wondering if it wouldn't be better to not allow tags to be
>> embedded in the modules at all.  Instead, if this was maintained in a
>> central database, e.g. like http://www.yangcatalog.org/, then the module
>> authors could always email the maintainers of YANG catalog to agree with
>> them how the module could most usefully be tagged in the catalog.  If
>> this needs to change over time then this would seem to be much easier to
>> update.
> And then what happens to the modules that are deployed? I like having
> some set of tags than are paired directly with the standardized module
> specifically b/c they do not change.
This goes back to my questioning as to whether tags should actually 
extend to the devices themselves, or just live in the manageability 
layer of YANG modules.

E.g. an operator could maintain a local database of tags associated with 
the modules that they use.  This database would initially be sourced 
from a central place, but could be refined/updated however the operator 
liked.  Tag based queries could be build in the operators mgmt systems, 
but would be converted to equivalent regular queries (with appropriate 
subtree filters) before being sent to the device.

Thanks,
Rob

>
> We did leave things open, so you could also create a yang catalog tag
> prefix and service as well.
>
> Thanks,
> Chris.
>
>>>    Nothing would keep the user or vendor
>>> from removing these or adding their own tags for the same purpose as
>>> well if they found these inappropriate or incorrect.
>> OK, yes.  But I wasn't thinking so much of a particular vendor or
>> operator, but more if the industry in general (or perhaps just the
>> maintainers of the catalog) decided that different categorization would
>> be more appropriate over time.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Rob
>>
>>>> But I also had not really realized that the tags information would
>>>> necessarily reach down to the devices.  I.e. I hadn't envisaged Chris's
>>>> example of querying the hello-time via an IGP package tag. Instead, I
>>>> had thought of tags making a YANG catalog website more useful.  E.g.
>>>> when browsing for YANG modules, be able to restrict the query to just
>>>> the modules that are tagged as "standard" + "IGP", etc.
>>>>
>>>> So, I think that this draft may benefit with a bit more description of
>>>> the envisaged use cases, and also about how tags are envisaged to evolve
>>>> once they have been defined.
>>> Well one goal I had with tags was to allow for them to be used in
>>> the future in ways we may not have anticipated. Therefore
>>> we specifically did not lock down how they are used or what they are
>>> used for. That said, examples of how one might use could be helpful.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Chris.
>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Rob
>>>>
>>>>> Lou
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> Chris.
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> netmod mailing list
>>>>> netmod@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
>>>>> .
>>>>>


From nobody Tue Feb 14 12:58:59 2017
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From: Alex Campbell <Alex.Campbell@Aviatnet.com>
To: "Martin Ciglan -X (mciglan - PANTHEON TECHNOLOGIES at Cisco)" <mciglan@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: Yang 1.1 change:  Allow type "empty" in a key.
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Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 20:58:54 +0000
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Subject: Re: [netmod] Yang 1.1 change:  Allow type "empty" in a key.
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Hi,


It means exactly what the summary says. In YANG 1.0 (RFC 6020) we have:

   A leaf that is part of the key can be of any built-in or derived
   type, except it MUST NOT be the built-in type "empty".

and in YANG 1.1 (RFC 7950) we have:

   A leaf that is part of the key can be of any built-in or
   derived type.

In YANG 1.1, leaves of type "empty" are not disallowed from being keys.

Note that since leaves of type "empty" only convey information through thei=
r presence or absence, and since
key leaves must always be present, key leaves of type "empty" convey no use=
ful information.



Alex



________________________________
From: netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Martin Ciglan -X (mcigl=
an - PANTHEON TECHNOLOGIES at Cisco) <mciglan@cisco.com>
Sent: Wednesday, 15 February 2017 2:48 a.m.
To: netmod@ietf.org
Cc: Igor Foltin -X (ifoltin - PANTHEON TECHNOLOGIES at Cisco)
Subject: [netmod] Yang 1.1 change: Allow type "empty" in a key.


Hi all


Yang 1.1 change:  Allow type "empty" in a key.


What is the meaning of this change? We're interested from implementation po=
int of view.


  Thanks


       Martin


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<html>
<head>
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1">
<style type=3D"text/css" style=3D"display:none"><!--P{margin-top:0;margin-b=
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FFFFF;font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;">
<p>Hi,</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>It means exactly what the summary says. In YANG 1.0 (RFC 6020) we have:<=
/p>
<pre>   A leaf that is part of the key can be of any built-in or derived=0A=
   type, except it MUST NOT be the built-in type &quot;empty&quot;.</pre>
<p>and in YANG 1.1 (RFC 7950) we have:</p>
<pre class=3D"newpage">   A leaf that is part of the key can be of any buil=
t-in or=0A=
   derived type.<br><br><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri,Arial,Helvetica=
,sans-serif;">In YANG 1.1, leaves of type &quot;empty&quot; are not disallo=
wed from being keys.<br><br>Note that since leaves of type &quot;empty&quot=
; only convey information through their presence or absence, and since<br>k=
ey leaves must always be present, key leaves of type &quot;empty&quot; conv=
ey no useful information.<br><br></span></pre>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Alex</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"font-size:12pt; color:#000000; background-color:#=
FFFFFF; font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">
<hr tabindex=3D"-1" style=3D"display:inline-block; width:98%">
<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font style=3D"font-size:11pt" color=
=3D"#000000" face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif"><b>From:</b> netmod &lt;netmod-bo=
unces@ietf.org&gt; on behalf of Martin Ciglan -X (mciglan - PANTHEON TECHNO=
LOGIES at Cisco) &lt;mciglan@cisco.com&gt;<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, 15 February 2017 2:48 a.m.<br>
<b>To:</b> netmod@ietf.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Igor Foltin -X (ifoltin - PANTHEON TECHNOLOGIES at Cisco)<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [netmod] Yang 1.1 change: Allow type &quot;empty&quot; in a=
 key.</font>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
</div>
<div>
<p>Hi all<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Yang 1.1 change:&nbsp;<strong>&nbsp;Allow type &quot;empty&quot; in a ke=
y.<br>
</strong><br>
</p>
<p>What is the meaning of this change? We're interested from implementation=
 point of view.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>&nbsp; Thanks</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Martin<br>
<br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
</body>
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Subject: Re: [netmod] Question on draft-ietf-netmod-yang-model-classification
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Hi Adrian and Tianran,
> On Feb 14, 2017, at 5:23 AM, Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk> =
wrote:
>=20
> Hi Tianran,
>=20
> Nice summary.
>=20
> I think some of the confusion may be that =
draft-ietf-netmod-yang-model-classification shows "Network Service YANG =
Modules" on the interface between OSS/BSS and the network. But the =
"customer service model" is at a different place in the hierarchy as =
shown in Figure 4 of draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained.

As Carl mentioned, there are can be multiple network service =
classifications, example technical and business models, but we decided =
to leave it as single model. In early versions of private draft =
(draft-bogdanovic-netmod-yang-model-classification-00)
there were 3 different services models,

business service model was connected to OSS/BSS and then there was =
network service model (technical) and service component models.

After discussions and from our experiences talking to operators we =
decided  to collapse that into single classification name.

>=20
> To attend to your specific questions:
>> 1. Whether it's necessary to further classify the "Network Service =
YANG
>> Module"?
>=20
> I'm not particularly interested in doing that except so far as is =
necessary to avoid conflict between the two I-Ds. In =
draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained we introduced "customer service =
module" and "service delivery module" because it seemed (to us) that =
there were two different groups of people using the term "service model" =
to describe very different modules.
Authors of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-model-classification would be against, =
as we decided that way early in our work
>=20
>> 2. What's the well definition of "Network Service YANG Module", =
"customer
>> service module", "service delivery module"?
>=20
> Since draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained introduces the terms =
"customer service module" and "service delivery module" I am going to =
say that I am happy with the definitions in that document. I can say =
that "customer service module" is used consistently with the L3SM and =
L2SM work and so it is probably a stable definition. "Service delivery =
module" is a term we invented to match the definition in =
draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained: I don't think the term is used =
anywhere else, so maybe a better question is "is this a =
useful/meaningful term?"
>=20
> If the answer to Q1 is that draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained =
should not try to resolve any overlap with =
draft-ietf-netmod-yang-model-classification, then I think the definition =
of "Network Service YANG Module" in =
draft-ietf-netmod-yang-model-classification is fine (with the few tweaks =
Dean and I discussed on the list).

I agree with Adrian=E2=80=99s tweaks and will update the draft =
accordingly.
>=20
>> 3. What's the well position of the above terms in the management =
architecture?
>=20
> Ah, I like that question. But it makes me ask: where should I look for =
the definitive, state-of-the art management architecture?

As few years ago, would be willing to put something forward on this =
topic, but today the management architecture is in such a flux, that =
Adrian=E2=80=99s question needs an answer first.

Dean

>=20
> Thanks for continuing to drive this issue.
>=20
> Adrian
>=20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Tianran Zhou [mailto:zhoutianran@huawei.com]
>> Sent: 14 February 2017 09:54
>> To: Carl Moberg (camoberg); adrian@olddog.co.uk
>> Cc: opsawg@ietf.org; =
draft-ietf-netmod-yang-model-classification@ietf.org;
>> netmod@ietf.org; Dean Bogdanovic
>> Subject: RE: Question on draft-ietf-netmod-yang-model-classification
>>=20
>> Hi,
>>=20
>> Based on the discussion, here I try to clean up the confusion of the =
two I-Ds.
>>=20
>> [draft-ietf-netmod-yang-model-classification] classifies the yang =
modules into
>> "Network Service YANG Module" and the "Network Element YANG Module".
>> And usually, it uses "service module" to imply the "Network Service =
YANG
>> Module", i.e., "Network" here only want to limit the scope to network =
related
>> modules. One example of "Network Service YANG Module" is =
[draft-ietf-l3sm-
>> l3vpn-service-model].
>> The authors do not want to further classify the service module into =
more layers,
>> until more operational practice comes.
>>=20
>> [draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained] further classifies the =
service module
>> into "customer service module" and the "service delivery module". I =
think this is
>> based on the chair work on L3SM and L2SM WG and discussion with =
operators.
>> But the document think the "Network Service YANG Module" defined in =
[draft-
>> ietf-netmod-yang-model-classification] is "service delivery module" =
not include
>> the "customer service module". The =
[draft-ietf-l3sm-l3vpn-service-model] is
>> actually the "customer service module".
>>=20
>> Here comes the question:
>> 1. Whether it's necessary to further classify the "Network Service =
YANG
>> Module"?
>> 2. What's the well definition of "Network Service YANG Module", =
"customer
>> service module", "service delivery module"?
>> 3. What's the well position of the above terms in the management =
architecture?
>>=20
>> Good to see if we can solve the conflicts, these two I-Ds can =
complement each
>> other.
>>=20
>> Best,
>> Tianran
>>=20
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: netmod [mailto:netmod-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Carl =
Moberg
>>> (camoberg)
>>> Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2017 12:48 AM
>>> To: adrian@olddog.co.uk
>>> Cc: opsawg@ietf.org;
>>> draft-ietf-netmod-yang-model-classification@ietf.org; =
netmod@ietf.org;
>>> Dean Bogdanovic
>>> Subject: Re: [netmod] Question on
>>> draft-ietf-netmod-yang-model-classification
>>>=20
>>> Team,
>>>=20
>>> Inline below.
>>>=20
>>>> On Feb 8, 2017, at 8:04 AM, Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk> =
wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> Hi Dean,
>>>>=20
>>>> I've been processing your response and the continuing thread with =
you
>>> and Tianran.
>>>>=20
>>>>>> We've been trying to ensure that
>>>>>> draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained is consistent with the
>>>>>> latest version of draft-ietf-netmod-yang-model-classification. In
>>>>>> discussions with Tianran a question has come up.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> In section 2 you have a nice definition of Network Service YANG
>>>>>> Modules and this definition maps nicely to our definition of =
"service
>>> delivery models".
>>>>>> Furthermore, your figure 1 shows Network Service YANG Modules on =
the
>>>>>> interface between OSS/BSS and the various network services.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> We have further defined "customer service models" at a higher =
layer
>>>>>> still. That is, on the interface to the customer. This (of =
course?)
>>>>>> assumes that the OSS/BSS is not customer code :-)
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> However, your discussion of Network Service YANG Modules in =
section
>>>>>> 2.1 seems slightly at odds, although this may be just ambiguity.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> For example, when you say, "Network Service YANG Modules describe
>>>>>> the characteristics of a service, as agreed upon with consumers =
of that
>>> service,"
>>>>>> this is not the same as, "This model is used in the discussion
>>>>>> between a customer and a service provide to describe the =
characteristics
>>> of a service."
>>>>>> That is, the former case could be arrived at after processing =
based
>>>>>> on the latter case - processing that we have called "service
>>>>>> orchestration" but might (of course) be what leads to the =
operator poking
>>> the OSS/BSS.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Adrian, I can see the ambiguity. The point of service module is to =
be
>>>>> consumed by the customer and there can be some modifications of =
the
>>>>> service module to adapt to the customer specifics.
>>>>=20
>>>> So far I agree with your email and therefore not with your =
document. The
>>> OSS/BSS is not, IMHO, a tool used by the customer.
>>>>=20
>>>> Please see Figure 3 in =
draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained-05.txt
>>> that shows the customer distinct from the OSS/BSS.
>>>=20
>>> IMHO figure 3 in the draft is what it says, an _example_ of a set of
>>> relationships between the constituent parts of a =
provisioning/activation
>>> system.
>>>=20
>>> In all real-world applications, customers are several layers above =
the
>>> =E2=80=9Cservice orchestrator=E2=80=9D and adjacent systems. But the =
YANG model nevertheless
>>> serves the purpose of describing the structure of the service for =
customer
>>> (outside the SP) or other consuming parties (e.g. the OSS/BSS =
teams).
>>>=20
>>>>>> This might all be fine and good, but later in the same section =
you
>>>>>> say "Network Service YANG Modules define service models to be
>>>>>> consumed by external systems.
>>>>>> These modules are commonly designed, developed and deployed by
>>>>>> network infrastructure teams." And there you introduce two terms
>>>>>> that are previously undefined and only server to add ambiguity.
>>>>>> Specifically "external to what?" I could make and argument that =
the
>>>>>> OSS is developed and deployed by network infrastructure teams, ad =
also
>>> that the OSS is external to the network itself.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Agree that external systems are not defined and this text has to =
be
>>>>> clarified. The external systems can be OSS and BSS.
>>>>=20
>>>> If we relabelled our "Service Delivery Model" as "Network Service =
Model"
>>> would that be consistent?
>>>>=20
>>>> That is, in any case, to say that the OSS/BSS does not talk =
directly to
>>> the devices.
>>>=20
>>> I think that would help. And yes, the intent of =E2=80=9Cexternal=E2=80=
=9D was to say =E2=80=9Cother
>>> than=E2=80=9D, rather than =E2=80=9Coutside of the company=E2=80=9D =
(or something like that).
>>>=20
>>>>>> And, in between these two quoted pieces of text, you have...
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> As an example, the Network Service YANG Module defined in
>>>>>> [YANG-Data-Model-for-L3VPN-service-delivery] provides an abstract
>>>>>> model for Layer 3 IP VPN service configuration.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> My question is where do you see the L3SM model above or below OSS?
>>>>=20
>>>> Well, look at the figure in section 5 of
>>>> draft-ietf-l3sm-l3vpn-service-model-19.txt
>>>>=20
>>>> It is logically higher, but OSS/BSS are not "in the flow" as they =
are
>>> legacy components in a softwarized world.
>>>> However, per our pictures, OSS/BSS should use the same set of
>> models/modules
>>> as used by the "service orchestrator=E2=80=9D.
>>>=20
>>> This is a little different in different SPs. Many of them consider =
the
>>> RFS-style service definition as laid out in L3SM as something that =
is owned
>>> by the infratrstucture and ordered through the OSS/BSS layer (the =
order
>>> manager to be more precise).
>>>=20
>>>>> Because there are some nuances in the service module, but at the =
end
>>>>> we decided not to do sub classification
>>>>=20
>>>> Mutter, mutter.
>>>> In the document, you talk about "network service modules" not =
"service
>>> modules" and only trim to "service module" in the text implying that =
you
>>> always actually mean "network service module=E2=80=9D.
>>>=20
>>> We always mean =E2=80=9Cnetwork service models=E2=80=9D, there are =
many =E2=80=9Cservice models=E2=80=9D
>>> out there that have little or nothing to do with the network. And I =
would
>>> like to not go there :-)
>>>=20
>>>>> one is the business and one technical service.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> When i read the YANG-Data-Model-for-L3VPN-service-delivery, it =
looked
>>>>> to me much more like a technical model, then the business model, =
as
>>>>> didn=E2=80=99t see SLA definitions to track the business =
parameters of the service
>>> use.
>>>>=20
>>>> It is certainly not a business model and does not include SLAs. =
Other
>>> people have far more experience working on these things (TMF, MEF, =
...)
>>> and it is not an IETF core competence. Our intention is that our =
module
>>> can be augmented or accompanied by other modules in order to create =
a
>> business
>>> model, acknowledging that commercial details (even including SLAs) =
will
>>> vary from one operator to another, but that the core technical =
description
>>> of the service can be (and, it turns out, is) common across multiple
>>> providers.
>>>>=20
>>>> We even wrote text in Section 5 of draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-
>> explained
>>> to help with this.
>>>>=20
>>>>>> Per my other email, this reference needs to be fixed. But I =
struggle
>>>>>> to see the L3SM module as consistent with your figure. It may or =
may
>>>>>> not be consistent with your text dependent on the interpretation.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Sure, we can fix that reference, but the authors of L3SM module
>>>>> should do their own module classification, as they are the only =
ones
>>>>> that know the intent of the module.
>>>>=20
>>>> That is fine. They can classify it, and they can use your
>>>> classification system, but only if it can be understood, is
>>>> meaningful, and fits what they are trying to achieve :-)
>>>>=20
>>>> Your text currently says
>>>>  As an example, the Network Service YANG Module defined in
>>>>  [YANG-Data-Model-for-L3VPN-service-delivery] provides an abstract
>>>>  model for Layer 3 IP VPN service configuration.
>>>>=20
>>>> Your text and figures show "Network Service YANG Module" as being
>> something
>>> that the OSS/BSS talks (presumably toward a network orchestrator?). =
Thus
>>> the L3SM module does not fit here. And that is why we wrote
>>> draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained and included Figure 4 to =
augment
>>> your figure.
>>>=20
>>> Figure 4 also seems like an _example_ of how one could structure the =
layers.
>>> Personally I have never seen an implementation of a clear split =
between
>>> "Network Service YANG Modules=E2=80=9D and "Service YANG Modules=E2=80=
=9D. That=E2=80=99s why we
>>> wanted to stay clear of that discussion until there is experience =
telling
>>> us that this is indeed best practice.
>>>=20
>>>> And *finally*, Tianran is concerned that there may be confusion =
arising
>>> from whether the module we reference are "Network service modules",
>> "service
>>> delivery modules", "network configuration modules", "network element
>>> modules", or "device configuration modules". So many terms, but =
presumably
>>> these modules don't fit into all of the categories! The list is:
>>>>=20
>>>> [I-D.dhjain-bess-bgp-l3vpn-yang]
>>>=20
>>> =E2=80=9C=E2=80=9D"
>>>   There are two parts of the BGP L3VPN yang data model.  The first =
part
>>>   of the model defines VRF specific parameters for L3VPN by =
augmenting
>>>   the routing-instance container defined in the routing model [I-
>>>   D.ietf-netmod-routing-cfg] and the second part of the model =
defines
>>>   BGP specific parameters for the L3VPN by augmenting the base BGP =
data
>>>   model defined in [I-D.shaikh-idr-bgp-model].
>>> =E2=80=9C=E2=80=9D=E2=80=9D
>>>=20
>>> and it=E2=80=99s importing ietf-routing, ietf-interfaces, =
ietf-interfaces
>>> augmenting /rt:routing/ and /if:interfaces/.
>>>=20
>>> =46rom draft-ietf-netmod-yang-model-classification:
>>>=20
>>> =E2=80=9C=E2=80=9D=E2=80=9D
>>>   Network Element YANG Modules describe the characteristics of a
>>>   network device as defined by the vendor of that device.  The =
modules
>>>   are commonly structured around features of the device, e.g. =
interface
>>>   configuration [RFC7223], OSPF configuration [=E2=80=A6] =E2=80=9C=E2=
=80=9D"
>>>=20
>>> I would say that ietf-bgp-l3vpn@2016-02-22.yang is a network element =
YANG
>>> module.
>>>=20
>>>> [I-D.ietf-bess-l2vpn-yang]
>>>=20
>>> =E2=80=9C=E2=80=9D=E2=80=9D
>>>   In this version of the document, one single container, l2vpn, is
>>>   defined.  Within the l2vpn container, endpoint-a, endpoint-z and a
>>>   list of endpoints are defined. [=E2=80=A6]
>>> =E2=80=9C=E2=80=9D"
>>>=20
>>> =46rom draft-ietf-netmod-yang-model-classification:
>>>=20
>>> =E2=80=9C=E2=80=9D=E2=80=9D
>>>   That is, a
>>>   service module does not expose the detailed configuration =
parameters
>>>   of all participating network elements and features, but describes =
an
>>>   abstract model that allows instances of the service to be =
decomposed
>>>   into instance data according to the Network Element YANG Modules =
of
>>>   the participating network elements.
>>> =E2=80=9C=E2=80=9D=E2=80=9D
>>>=20
>>> I would say that ietf-l2vpn@2016-10-24.yang is a network service =
YANG
>>> module.
>>>=20
>>>> [I-D.ietf-bess-evpn-yang]
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> This draft contains two modules:
>>> - ietf-ethernet-segment@2016-07-08.yang
>>> - ietf-evpn@2016-07-08.yang
>>>=20
>>> Reading the first paragraph of section 3.1 =E2=80=9COverview=E2=80=9D
>>>=20
>>> =E2=80=9C=E2=80=9D=E2=80=9D
>>>      Two top level module, Ethernet-Segment and EVPN, are defined. =
The
>>>   Ethernet-Segment contains a list of interface to which any =
Ethernet-
>>>   Segment attributes are configured/applied.
>>> =E2=80=9C=E2=80=9D=E2=80=9D
>>>=20
>>> =E2=80=A6and understanding that the list of interfaces can be =
located on different
>>> network elements, makes me think that these two modules are both =
examples
>>> of network device YANG modules.
>>>=20
>>>> I wonder what type of module you think these are.
>>>>=20
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Adrian
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> netmod mailing list
>>> netmod@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
>=20


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	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Hi Adrian and Tianran,<br class=3D""><div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Feb 14, 2017, at 5:23 AM, =
Adrian Farrel &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk" =
class=3D"">adrian@olddog.co.uk</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">Hi =
Tianran,<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Nice summary.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">I think some of the confusion may be that =
draft-ietf-netmod-yang-model-classification shows "Network Service YANG =
Modules" on the interface between OSS/BSS and the network. But the =
"customer service model" is at a different place in the hierarchy as =
shown in Figure 4 of draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained.<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div>As Carl =
mentioned, there are can be multiple network service classifications, =
example technical and business models, but we decided to leave it as =
single model. In early versions of private draft (<span =
style=3D"font-size: 1em; font-weight: bold;" =
class=3D"">draft-bogdanovic-netmod-yang-model-classification-00</span><spa=
n style=3D"font-size: 1em;" class=3D"">)</span></div><div class=3D"">there=
 were 3 different services models,</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">business service model was connected to =
OSS/BSS and then there was network service model (technical) and service =
component models.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">After discussions and from our experiences talking to =
operators we decided &nbsp;to collapse that into single classification =
name.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D"">To=
 attend to your specific questions:<br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D"">1. Whether it's necessary to further classify =
the "Network Service YANG<br class=3D"">Module"?<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">I'm not particularly interested =
in doing that except so far as is necessary to avoid conflict between =
the two I-Ds. In draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained we introduced =
"customer service module" and "service delivery module" because it =
seemed (to us) that there were two different groups of people using the =
term "service model" to describe very different modules.<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div>Authors =
of&nbsp;draft-ietf-netmod-yang-model-classification would be against, as =
we decided that way early in our work</div><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D"">2. What's the well definition of "Network =
Service YANG Module", "customer<br class=3D"">service module", "service =
delivery module"?<br class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">Since =
draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained introduces the terms "customer =
service module" and "service delivery module" I am going to say that I =
am happy with the definitions in that document. I can say that "customer =
service module" is used consistently with the L3SM and L2SM work and so =
it is probably a stable definition. "Service delivery module" is a term =
we invented to match the definition in =
draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained: I don't think the term is used =
anywhere else, so maybe a better question is "is this a =
useful/meaningful term?"<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">If the answer to =
Q1 is that draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained should not try to =
resolve any overlap with draft-ietf-netmod-yang-model-classification, =
then I think the definition of "Network Service YANG Module" in =
draft-ietf-netmod-yang-model-classification is fine (with the few tweaks =
Dean and I discussed on the list).<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div>I agree =
with Adrian=E2=80=99s tweaks and will update the draft accordingly.<br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">3. What's =
the well position of the above terms in the management architecture?<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">Ah, I like that question. But it =
makes me ask: where should I look for the definitive, state-of-the art =
management architecture?<br class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div>As few years ago, would be willing to put something =
forward on this topic, but today the management architecture is in such =
a flux, that Adrian=E2=80=99s question needs an answer =
first.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Dean</div><div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Thanks for continuing to drive this issue.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Adrian<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D"">-----Original Message-----<br class=3D"">From: =
Tianran Zhou [<a href=3D"mailto:zhoutianran@huawei.com" =
class=3D"">mailto:zhoutianran@huawei.com</a>]<br class=3D"">Sent: 14 =
February 2017 09:54<br class=3D"">To: Carl Moberg (camoberg); <a =
href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk" class=3D"">adrian@olddog.co.uk</a><br =
class=3D"">Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:opsawg@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">opsawg@ietf.org</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-netmod-yang-model-classification@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">draft-ietf-netmod-yang-model-classification@ietf.org</a>;<br =
class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:netmod@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">netmod@ietf.org</a>; Dean Bogdanovic<br class=3D"">Subject: =
RE: Question on draft-ietf-netmod-yang-model-classification<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Hi,<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Based on the =
discussion, here I try to clean up the confusion of the two I-Ds.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">[draft-ietf-netmod-yang-model-classification] =
classifies the yang modules into<br class=3D"">"Network Service YANG =
Module" and the "Network Element YANG Module".<br class=3D"">And =
usually, it uses "service module" to imply the "Network Service YANG<br =
class=3D"">Module", i.e., "Network" here only want to limit the scope to =
network related<br class=3D"">modules. One example of "Network Service =
YANG Module" is [draft-ietf-l3sm-<br class=3D"">l3vpn-service-model].<br =
class=3D"">The authors do not want to further classify the service =
module into more layers,<br class=3D"">until more operational practice =
comes.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">[draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained] further classifies =
the service module<br class=3D"">into "customer service module" and the =
"service delivery module". I think this is<br class=3D"">based on the =
chair work on L3SM and L2SM WG and discussion with operators.<br =
class=3D"">But the document think the "Network Service YANG Module" =
defined in [draft-<br class=3D"">ietf-netmod-yang-model-classification] =
is "service delivery module" not include<br class=3D"">the "customer =
service module". The [draft-ietf-l3sm-l3vpn-service-model] is<br =
class=3D"">actually the "customer service module".<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Here comes the question:<br class=3D"">1. Whether it's =
necessary to further classify the "Network Service YANG<br =
class=3D"">Module"?<br class=3D"">2. What's the well definition of =
"Network Service YANG Module", "customer<br class=3D"">service module", =
"service delivery module"?<br class=3D"">3. What's the well position of =
the above terms in the management architecture?<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Good to see if we can solve the conflicts, these two I-Ds can =
complement each<br class=3D"">other.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Best,<br=
 class=3D"">Tianran<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite"=
 class=3D"">-----Original Message-----<br class=3D"">From: netmod [<a =
href=3D"mailto:netmod-bounces@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">mailto:netmod-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Carl =
Moberg<br class=3D"">(camoberg)<br class=3D"">Sent: Thursday, February =
09, 2017 12:48 AM<br class=3D"">To: <a href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk"=
 class=3D"">adrian@olddog.co.uk</a><br class=3D"">Cc: <a =
href=3D"mailto:opsawg@ietf.org" class=3D"">opsawg@ietf.org</a>;<br =
class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-netmod-yang-model-classification@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">draft-ietf-netmod-yang-model-classification@ietf.org</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:netmod@ietf.org" class=3D"">netmod@ietf.org</a>;<br =
class=3D"">Dean Bogdanovic<br class=3D"">Subject: Re: [netmod] Question =
on<br class=3D"">draft-ietf-netmod-yang-model-classification<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Team,<br class=3D""><br class=3D""> Inline =
below.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D"">On Feb 8, 2017, at 8:04 AM, Adrian Farrel &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk" class=3D"">adrian@olddog.co.uk</a>&gt;=
 wrote:<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Hi Dean,<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">I've been processing your response and the continuing thread =
with you<br class=3D""></blockquote>and Tianran.<br class=3D""><blockquote=
 type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">We've been trying to =
ensure that<br class=3D"">draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained is =
consistent with the<br class=3D"">latest version of =
draft-ietf-netmod-yang-model-classification. In<br class=3D"">discussions =
with Tianran a question has come up.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">In =
section 2 you have a nice definition of Network Service YANG<br =
class=3D"">Modules and this definition maps nicely to our definition of =
"service<br class=3D""></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>delivery =
models".<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">Furthermore,=
 your figure 1 shows Network Service YANG Modules on the<br =
class=3D"">interface between OSS/BSS and the various network =
services.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">We have further defined "customer =
service models" at a higher layer<br class=3D"">still. That is, on the =
interface to the customer. This (of course?)<br class=3D"">assumes that =
the OSS/BSS is not customer code :-)<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">However,=
 your discussion of Network Service YANG Modules in section<br =
class=3D"">2.1 seems slightly at odds, although this may be just =
ambiguity.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">For example, when you say, =
"Network Service YANG Modules describe<br class=3D"">the characteristics =
of a service, as agreed upon with consumers of that<br =
class=3D""></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>service,"<br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">this is not the same as, =
"This model is used in the discussion<br class=3D"">between a customer =
and a service provide to describe the characteristics<br =
class=3D""></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>of a service."<br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">That is, the former case =
could be arrived at after processing based<br class=3D"">on the latter =
case - processing that we have called "service<br =
class=3D"">orchestration" but might (of course) be what leads to the =
operator poking<br class=3D""></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>the =
OSS/BSS.<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br class=3D"">Adrian, I can see the ambiguity. =
The point of service module is to be<br class=3D"">consumed by the =
customer and there can be some modifications of the<br class=3D"">service =
module to adapt to the customer specifics.<br class=3D""></blockquote><br =
class=3D"">So far I agree with your email and therefore not with your =
document. The<br class=3D""></blockquote>OSS/BSS is not, IMHO, a tool =
used by the customer.<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Please see Figure 3 in =
draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained-05.txt<br =
class=3D""></blockquote>that shows the customer distinct from the =
OSS/BSS.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""> IMHO figure 3 in the draft is =
what it says, an _example_ of a set of<br class=3D"">relationships =
between the constituent parts of a provisioning/activation<br =
class=3D"">system.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""> In all real-world =
applications, customers are several layers above the<br =
class=3D"">=E2=80=9Cservice orchestrator=E2=80=9D and adjacent systems. =
But the YANG model nevertheless<br class=3D"">serves the purpose of =
describing the structure of the service for customer<br =
class=3D"">(outside the SP) or other consuming parties (e.g. the OSS/BSS =
teams).<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D"">This might all be fine and good, but later in the same =
section you<br class=3D"">say "Network Service YANG Modules define =
service models to be<br class=3D"">consumed by external systems.<br =
class=3D"">These modules are commonly designed, developed and deployed =
by<br class=3D"">network infrastructure teams." And there you introduce =
two terms<br class=3D"">that are previously undefined and only server to =
add ambiguity.<br class=3D"">Specifically "external to what?" I could =
make and argument that the<br class=3D"">OSS is developed and deployed =
by network infrastructure teams, ad also<br =
class=3D""></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>that the OSS is =
external to the network itself.<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br class=3D"">Agree =
that external systems are not defined and this text has to be<br =
class=3D"">clarified. The external systems can be OSS and BSS.<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">If we relabelled our "Service =
Delivery Model" as "Network Service Model"<br =
class=3D""></blockquote>would that be consistent?<br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br class=3D"">That is, =
in any case, to say that the OSS/BSS does not talk directly to<br =
class=3D""></blockquote>the devices.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""> I =
think that would help. And yes, the intent of =E2=80=9Cexternal=E2=80=9D =
was to say =E2=80=9Cother<br class=3D"">than=E2=80=9D, rather than =
=E2=80=9Coutside of the company=E2=80=9D (or something like that).<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><blockquote=
 type=3D"cite" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">And, in =
between these two quoted pieces of text, you have...<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""> As an example, the Network Service YANG Module defined in<br =
class=3D"">[YANG-Data-Model-for-L3VPN-service-delivery] provides an =
abstract<br class=3D"">model for Layer 3 IP VPN service =
configuration.<br class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">My question is =
where do you see the L3SM model above or below OSS?<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">Well, look at the figure in =
section 5 of<br class=3D"">draft-ietf-l3sm-l3vpn-service-model-19.txt<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">It is logically higher, but OSS/BSS are not =
"in the flow" as they are<br class=3D""></blockquote>legacy components =
in a softwarized world.<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D"">However, per our pictures, OSS/BSS should use the same set =
of<br class=3D""></blockquote></blockquote>models/modules<br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">as used by the "service =
orchestrator=E2=80=9D.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""> This is a little =
different in different SPs. Many of them consider the<br =
class=3D"">RFS-style service definition as laid out in L3SM as something =
that is owned<br class=3D"">by the infratrstucture and ordered through =
the OSS/BSS layer (the order<br class=3D"">manager to be more =
precise).<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">Because there are some =
nuances in the service module, but at the end<br class=3D"">we decided =
not to do sub classification<br class=3D""></blockquote><br =
class=3D"">Mutter, mutter.<br class=3D"">In the document, you talk about =
"network service modules" not "service<br class=3D""></blockquote>modules"=
 and only trim to "service module" in the text implying that you<br =
class=3D"">always actually mean "network service module=E2=80=9D.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""> We always mean =E2=80=9Cnetwork service =
models=E2=80=9D, there are many =E2=80=9Cservice models=E2=80=9D<br =
class=3D"">out there that have little or nothing to do with the network. =
And I would<br class=3D"">like to not go there :-)<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D"">one is the business and one technical service.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">When i read the =
YANG-Data-Model-for-L3VPN-service-delivery, it looked<br class=3D"">to =
me much more like a technical model, then the business model, as<br =
class=3D"">didn=E2=80=99t see SLA definitions to track the business =
parameters of the service<br class=3D""></blockquote></blockquote>use.<br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br class=3D"">It is =
certainly not a business model and does not include SLAs. Other<br =
class=3D""></blockquote>people have far more experience working on these =
things (TMF, MEF, ...)<br class=3D"">and it is not an IETF core =
competence. Our intention is that our module<br class=3D"">can be =
augmented or accompanied by other modules in order to create a<br =
class=3D""></blockquote>business<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D"">model, acknowledging that commercial details (even including =
SLAs) will<br class=3D"">vary from one operator to another, but that the =
core technical description<br class=3D"">of the service can be (and, it =
turns out, is) common across multiple<br class=3D"">providers.<br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br class=3D"">We even =
wrote text in Section 5 of draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-<br =
class=3D""></blockquote></blockquote>explained<br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D"">to help with this.<br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">Per my other email, this =
reference needs to be fixed. But I struggle<br class=3D"">to see the =
L3SM module as consistent with your figure. It may or may<br =
class=3D"">not be consistent with your text dependent on the =
interpretation.<br class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">Sure, we can =
fix that reference, but the authors of L3SM module<br class=3D"">should =
do their own module classification, as they are the only ones<br =
class=3D"">that know the intent of the module.<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">That is fine. They can classify =
it, and they can use your<br class=3D"">classification system, but only =
if it can be understood, is<br class=3D"">meaningful, and fits what they =
are trying to achieve :-)<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Your text =
currently says<br class=3D""> &nbsp;As an example, the Network Service =
YANG Module defined in<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;[YANG-Data-Model-for-L3VPN-service-delivery] provides an =
abstract<br class=3D""> &nbsp;model for Layer 3 IP VPN service =
configuration.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Your text and figures show =
"Network Service YANG Module" as being<br =
class=3D""></blockquote></blockquote>something<br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D"">that the OSS/BSS talks (presumably toward a =
network orchestrator?). Thus<br class=3D"">the L3SM module does not fit =
here. And that is why we wrote<br =
class=3D"">draft-wu-opsawg-service-model-explained and included Figure 4 =
to augment<br class=3D"">your figure.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""> =
Figure 4 also seems like an _example_ of how one could structure the =
layers.<br class=3D"">Personally I have never seen an implementation of =
a clear split between<br class=3D"">"Network Service YANG Modules=E2=80=9D=
 and "Service YANG Modules=E2=80=9D. That=E2=80=99s why we<br =
class=3D"">wanted to stay clear of that discussion until there is =
experience telling<br class=3D"">us that this is indeed best =
practice.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D"">And *finally*, Tianran is concerned that there may be =
confusion arising<br class=3D""></blockquote>from whether the module we =
reference are "Network service modules",<br =
class=3D""></blockquote>"service<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D"">delivery modules", "network configuration modules", "network =
element<br class=3D"">modules", or "device configuration modules". So =
many terms, but presumably<br class=3D"">these modules don't fit into =
all of the categories! The list is:<br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">[I-D.dhjain-bess-bgp-l3vpn-yang]<br class=3D""></blockquote><br=
 class=3D"">=E2=80=9C=E2=80=9D"<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;There are two =
parts of the BGP L3VPN yang data model. &nbsp;The first part<br =
class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;of the model defines VRF specific parameters for =
L3VPN by augmenting<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;the routing-instance =
container defined in the routing model [I-<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;D.ietf-netmod-routing-cfg] and the second part of the model =
defines<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;BGP specific parameters for the L3VPN =
by augmenting the base BGP data<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;model defined =
in [I-D.shaikh-idr-bgp-model].<br class=3D"">=E2=80=9C=E2=80=9D=E2=80=9D<b=
r class=3D""><br class=3D""> and it=E2=80=99s importing ietf-routing, =
ietf-interfaces, ietf-interfaces<br class=3D"">augmenting /rt:routing/ =
and /if:interfaces/.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">=46rom =
draft-ietf-netmod-yang-model-classification:<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">=
 =E2=80=9C=E2=80=9D=E2=80=9D<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;Network Element =
YANG Modules describe the characteristics of a<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;network device as defined by the vendor of that device. =
&nbsp;The modules<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;are commonly structured =
around features of the device, e.g. interface<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;configuration [RFC7223], OSPF configuration [=E2=80=A6] =
=E2=80=9C=E2=80=9D"<br class=3D""><br class=3D""> I would say that <a =
href=3D"mailto:ietf-bgp-l3vpn@2016-02-22.yang" =
class=3D"">ietf-bgp-l3vpn@2016-02-22.yang</a> is a network element =
YANG<br class=3D"">module.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D"">[I-D.ietf-bess-l2vpn-yang]<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">=E2=80=9C=E2=80=9D=E2=80=9D<br =
class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;In this version of the document, one single =
container, l2vpn, is<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;defined. &nbsp;Within =
the l2vpn container, endpoint-a, endpoint-z and a<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;list of endpoints are defined. [=E2=80=A6]<br =
class=3D"">=E2=80=9C=E2=80=9D"<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">=46rom =
draft-ietf-netmod-yang-model-classification:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">=E2=80=9C=E2=80=9D=E2=80=9D<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;That =
is, a<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;service module does not expose the =
detailed configuration parameters<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;of all =
participating network elements and features, but describes an<br =
class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;abstract model that allows instances of the =
service to be decomposed<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;into instance data =
according to the Network Element YANG Modules of<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;the participating network elements.<br class=3D"">=E2=80=9C=E2=
=80=9D=E2=80=9D<br class=3D""><br class=3D""> I would say that <a =
href=3D"mailto:ietf-l2vpn@2016-10-24.yang" =
class=3D"">ietf-l2vpn@2016-10-24.yang</a> is a network service YANG<br =
class=3D"">module.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D"">[I-D.ietf-bess-evpn-yang]<br class=3D""></blockquote><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""> This draft contains two modules:<br class=3D"">=
 - <a href=3D"mailto:ietf-ethernet-segment@2016-07-08.yang" =
class=3D"">ietf-ethernet-segment@2016-07-08.yang</a><br class=3D""> - <a =
href=3D"mailto:ietf-evpn@2016-07-08.yang" =
class=3D"">ietf-evpn@2016-07-08.yang</a><br class=3D""><br class=3D""> =
Reading the first paragraph of section 3.1 =E2=80=9COverview=E2=80=9D<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">=E2=80=9C=E2=80=9D=E2=80=9D<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Two top level module, Ethernet-Segment and =
EVPN, are defined. The<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;Ethernet-Segment =
contains a list of interface to which any Ethernet-<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;Segment attributes are configured/applied.<br =
class=3D"">=E2=80=9C=E2=80=9D=E2=80=9D<br class=3D""><br class=3D""> =
=E2=80=A6and understanding that the list of interfaces can be located on =
different<br class=3D"">network elements, makes me think that these two =
modules are both examples<br class=3D"">of network device YANG =
modules.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D"">I wonder what type of module you think these are.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Cheers,<br class=3D"">Adrian<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""></blockquote><br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">netmod mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:netmod@ietf.org" class=3D"">netmod@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod<br =
class=3D""></blockquote></blockquote><br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_863D585C-930F-421E-986E-B952F69C14C9--


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From: "Jernej Tuljak" <jernej.tuljak@mg-soft.si>
To: "'Alex Campbell'" <Alex.Campbell@Aviatnet.com>, "'Martin Ciglan -X \(mciglan - PANTHEON TECHNOLOGIES at Cisco\)'" <mciglan@cisco.com>
References: <1487080134376.87476@cisco.com> <1487105934602.29661@Aviatnet.com>
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Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2017 11:16:52 +0100
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Cc: "'Igor Foltin -X \(ifoltin - PANTHEON TECHNOLOGIES at Cisco\)'" <ifoltin@cisco.com>, netmod@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [netmod] Yang 1.1 change:  Allow type "empty" in a key.
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Plus, "empty keys" were aready allowed in YANG 1.

=20

module empty-key {

  namespace "org:example:empty-key";

  prefix "ek";

=20

  container stuff {

    list item {

      key "first second";

      leaf first {

        type string {

          length 0;

        }

      }

      leaf second {

        type string {

          pattern '.{0}';

        }

      }

    }

  }

}

=20

Therefore this change removed a redundant (perhaps even broken) rule.

=20

https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netmod/current/msg16763.html

Jernej

=20

From: netmod [mailto:netmod-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Alex Campbell
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 9:59 PM
To: Martin Ciglan -X (mciglan - PANTHEON TECHNOLOGIES at Cisco) =
<mciglan@cisco.com>
Cc: Igor Foltin -X (ifoltin - PANTHEON TECHNOLOGIES at Cisco) =
<ifoltin@cisco.com>; netmod@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [netmod] Yang 1.1 change: Allow type "empty" in a key.

=20

Hi,

=20

It means exactly what the summary says. In YANG 1.0 (RFC 6020) we have:

   A leaf that is part of the key can be of any built-in or derived
   type, except it MUST NOT be the built-in type "empty".

and in YANG 1.1 (RFC 7950) we have:

   A leaf that is part of the key can be of any built-in or
   derived type.

In YANG 1.1, leaves of type "empty" are not disallowed from being keys.

Note that since leaves of type "empty" only convey information through =
their presence or absence, and since
key leaves must always be present, key leaves of type "empty" convey no =
useful information.

=20

Alex

=20

=20

  _____ =20

From: netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:netmod-bounces@ietf.org> > =
on behalf of Martin Ciglan -X (mciglan - PANTHEON TECHNOLOGIES at Cisco) =
<mciglan@cisco.com <mailto:mciglan@cisco.com> >
Sent: Wednesday, 15 February 2017 2:48 a.m.
To: netmod@ietf.org <mailto:netmod@ietf.org>=20
Cc: Igor Foltin -X (ifoltin - PANTHEON TECHNOLOGIES at Cisco)
Subject: [netmod] Yang 1.1 change: Allow type "empty" in a key.=20

=20

Hi all

=20

Yang 1.1 change:  Allow type "empty" in a key.

What is the meaning of this change? We're interested from implementation =
point of view.

=20

  Thanks

=20

       Martin


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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body bgcolor=3Dwhite lang=3DSL =
link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72"><div class=3DWordSection1><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-fareast-la=
nguage:EN-US'>Plus, &quot;empty keys&quot; were aready allowed in YANG =
1.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-fareast-la=
nguage:EN-US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-fareast-la=
nguage:EN-US'>module empty-key {<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-fareast-la=
nguage:EN-US'>=C2=A0 namespace =
&quot;org:example:empty-key&quot;;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-fareast-la=
nguage:EN-US'>=C2=A0 prefix &quot;ek&quot;;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-fareast-la=
nguage:EN-US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-fareast-la=
nguage:EN-US'>=C2=A0 container stuff {<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-fareast-la=
nguage:EN-US'>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 list item {<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-fareast-la=
nguage:EN-US'>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 key &quot;first =
second&quot;;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-fareast-la=
nguage:EN-US'>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 leaf first =
{<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-fareast-la=
nguage:EN-US'>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 type string =
{<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-fareast-la=
nguage:EN-US'>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
length 0;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-fareast-la=
nguage:EN-US'>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
}<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-fareast-la=
nguage:EN-US'>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-fareast-la=
nguage:EN-US'>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 leaf second =
{<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-fareast-la=
nguage:EN-US'>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 type string =
{<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-fareast-la=
nguage:EN-US'>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
pattern '.{0}';<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-fareast-la=
nguage:EN-US'>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
}<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-fareast-la=
nguage:EN-US'>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-fareast-la=
nguage:EN-US'>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-fareast-la=
nguage:EN-US'>=C2=A0 }<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-fareast-la=
nguage:EN-US'>}<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-fareast-la=
nguage:EN-US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-fareast-la=
nguage:EN-US'>Therefore this change removed a redundant (perhaps even =
broken) rule.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-fareast-la=
nguage:EN-US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-fareast-la=
nguage:EN-US'>https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netmod/current/msg167=
63.html</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-fareast-la=
nguage:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-fareast-la=
nguage:EN-US'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;mso-fareast-la=
nguage:EN-US'>Jernej<span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;=
mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span><=
/b><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> netmod =
[mailto:netmod-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Alex =
Campbell<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 14, 2017 9:59 =
PM<br><b>To:</b> Martin Ciglan -X (mciglan - PANTHEON TECHNOLOGIES at =
Cisco) &lt;mciglan@cisco.com&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b> Igor Foltin -X (ifoltin - =
PANTHEON TECHNOLOGIES at Cisco) &lt;ifoltin@cisco.com&gt;; =
netmod@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [netmod] Yang 1.1 change: Allow =
type &quot;empty&quot; in a key.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>Hi,<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p><p><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p><=
/span></p><p><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>It means exactly =
what the summary says. In YANG 1.0 (RFC 6020) we =
have:<o:p></o:p></span></p><pre><span style=3D'color:black'>=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
A leaf that is part of the key can be of any built-in or =
derived<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre><span =
style=3D'color:black'>=C2=A0=C2=A0 type, except it MUST NOT be the =
built-in type &quot;empty&quot;.<o:p></o:p></span></pre><p><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>and in YANG 1.1 =
(RFC 7950) we have:<o:p></o:p></span></p><pre><span =
style=3D'color:black'>=C2=A0=C2=A0 A leaf that is part of the key can be =
of any built-in or<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style=3D'color:black'>=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
derived type.<br><br></span><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>In YANG 1.1, =
leaves of type &quot;empty&quot; are not disallowed from being =
keys.<br><br>Note that since leaves of type &quot;empty&quot; only =
convey information through their presence or absence, and since<br>key =
leaves must always be present, key leaves of type &quot;empty&quot; =
convey no useful information.</span><span =
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></pre><p><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p><=
/span></p><p><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>Alex<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p><p><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p><=
/span></p><p><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p><=
/span></p><div><div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter =
style=3D'text-align:center;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'><hr size=3D2 =
width=3D"98%" align=3Dcenter></span></div><div id=3DdivRplyFwdMsg><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'background:white'><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>F=
rom:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'> =
netmod &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:netmod-bounces@ietf.org">netmod-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; =
on behalf of Martin Ciglan -X (mciglan - PANTHEON TECHNOLOGIES at Cisco) =
&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mciglan@cisco.com">mciglan@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Sent:</=
b> Wednesday, 15 February 2017 2:48 a.m.<br><b>To:</b> <a =
href=3D"mailto:netmod@ietf.org">netmod@ietf.org</a><br><b>Cc:</b> Igor =
Foltin -X (ifoltin - PANTHEON TECHNOLOGIES at Cisco)<br><b>Subject:</b> =
[netmod] Yang 1.1 change: Allow type &quot;empty&quot; in a =
key.</span><span style=3D'font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'> =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p></div></div><div><p style=3D'background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>Hi =
all<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style=3D'background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p><=
/span></p><p style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>Yang 1.1 =
change:&nbsp;<strong><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>&nbsp;Allow type =
&quot;empty&quot; in a key.</span></strong><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
style=3D'background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>What is the =
meaning of this change? We're interested from implementation point of =
view.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style=3D'background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p><=
/span></p><p style=3D'background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>&nbsp; =
Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style=3D'background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p><=
/span></p><p style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:black'>&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; =
&nbsp;Martin<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div></body></html>
------=_NextPart_000_1066_01D2877D.027B6A30--


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Cc: "Igor Foltin -X \(ifoltin - PANTHEON TECHNOLOGIES at Cisco\)" <ifoltin@cisco.com>, "Martin Ciglan -X \(mciglan - PANTHEON TECHNOLOGIES at Cisco\)" <mciglan@cisco.com>, netmod@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [netmod] Yang 1.1 change:  Allow type "empty" in a key.
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> On 15 Feb 2017, at 11:16, Jernej Tuljak <jernej.tuljak@mg-soft.si> =
wrote:
>=20
> Plus, "empty keys" were aready allowed in YANG 1.

Well, keys with "empty" type were not allowed. What you are saying is =
that the same (dubious) effect can be achieved in other ways that were =
permitted in YANG 1. Note also that while if in XML encoding an empty =
leaf and a leaf containing string of length 0 look the same, in JSON =
encoding they are different:

"first": [null]

versus

"first": ""

> =20
> module empty-key {
>   namespace "org:example:empty-key";
>   prefix "ek";
> =20
>   container stuff {
>     list item {
>       key "first second";
>       leaf first {
>         type string {
>           length 0;
>         }
>       }
>       leaf second {
>         type string {
>           pattern '.{0}';
>         }
>       }
>     }
>   }
> }
> =20
> Therefore this change removed a redundant (perhaps even broken) rule.

Agreed.

Lada

> =20
> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netmod/current/msg16763.html
> Jernej
> =20
> From: netmod [mailto:netmod-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Alex =
Campbell
> Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 9:59 PM
> To: Martin Ciglan -X (mciglan - PANTHEON TECHNOLOGIES at Cisco) =
<mciglan@cisco.com>
> Cc: Igor Foltin -X (ifoltin - PANTHEON TECHNOLOGIES at Cisco) =
<ifoltin@cisco.com>; netmod@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [netmod] Yang 1.1 change: Allow type "empty" in a key.
> =20
> Hi,
> =20
> It means exactly what the summary says. In YANG 1.0 (RFC 6020) we =
have:
>    A leaf that is part of the key can be of any built-in or derived
>    type, except it MUST NOT be the built-in type "empty".
> and in YANG 1.1 (RFC 7950) we have:
>    A leaf that is part of the key can be of any built-in or
>    derived type.
>=20
> In YANG 1.1, leaves of type "empty" are not disallowed from being =
keys.
>=20
> Note that since leaves of type "empty" only convey information through =
their presence or absence, and since
> key leaves must always be present, key leaves of type "empty" convey =
no useful information.
> =20
> Alex
> =20
> =20
> From: netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Martin Ciglan -X =
(mciglan - PANTHEON TECHNOLOGIES at Cisco) <mciglan@cisco.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, 15 February 2017 2:48 a.m.
> To: netmod@ietf.org
> Cc: Igor Foltin -X (ifoltin - PANTHEON TECHNOLOGIES at Cisco)
> Subject: [netmod] Yang 1.1 change: Allow type "empty" in a key.
> =20
> Hi all
> =20
> Yang 1.1 change:  Allow type "empty" in a key.
>=20
> What is the meaning of this change? We're interested from =
implementation point of view.
> =20
>   Thanks
> =20
>        Martin
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> netmod mailing list
> netmod@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod

--
Ladislav Lhotka, CZ.NIC Labs
PGP Key ID: 0xB8F92B08A9F76C67






From nobody Wed Feb 15 04:27:32 2017
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From: "Jernej Tuljak" <jernej.tuljak@mg-soft.si>
To: "'Ladislav Lhotka'" <lhotka@nic.cz>
References: <1487080134376.87476@cisco.com> <1487105934602.29661@Aviatnet.com> <106501d28774$a0b5a2a0$e220e7e0$@mg-soft.si> <C3D06898-E9AF-4AB1-9982-146550E4A6E2@nic.cz>
In-Reply-To: <C3D06898-E9AF-4AB1-9982-146550E4A6E2@nic.cz>
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2017 13:27:26 +0100
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Cc: "'Igor Foltin -X \(ifoltin - PANTHEON TECHNOLOGIES at Cisco\)'" <ifoltin@cisco.com>, "'Martin Ciglan -X \(mciglan - PANTHEON TECHNOLOGIES at Cisco\)'" <mciglan@cisco.com>, netmod@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [netmod] Yang 1.1 change:  Allow type "empty" in a key.
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ladislav Lhotka [mailto:lhotka@nic.cz]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 11:40 AM
> To: Jernej Tuljak <jernej.tuljak@mg-soft.si>
> Cc: Alex Campbell <Alex.Campbell@Aviatnet.com>; Martin Ciglan -X =
(mciglan
> - PANTHEON TECHNOLOGIES at Cisco) <mciglan@cisco.com>; Igor Foltin -X
> (ifoltin - PANTHEON TECHNOLOGIES at Cisco) <ifoltin@cisco.com>;
> netmod@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [netmod] Yang 1.1 change: Allow type "empty" in a key.
>=20
>=20
> > On 15 Feb 2017, at 11:16, Jernej Tuljak <jernej.tuljak@mg-soft.si> =
wrote:
> >
> > Plus, "empty keys" were aready allowed in YANG 1.
>=20
> Well, keys with "empty" type were not allowed. What you are saying is =
that
> the same (dubious) effect can be achieved in other ways that were
> permitted in YANG 1.

Indeed. I meant =C2=BBempty keys=C2=AB. Quoting is hard. :)

Jernej

> Note also that while if in XML encoding an empty leaf
> and a leaf containing string of length 0 look the same, in JSON =
encoding they
> are different:
>=20
> "first": [null]
>=20
> versus
>=20
> "first": ""
>=20
> >
> > module empty-key {
> >   namespace "org:example:empty-key";
> >   prefix "ek";
> >
> >   container stuff {
> >     list item {
> >       key "first second";
> >       leaf first {
> >         type string {
> >           length 0;
> >         }
> >       }
> >       leaf second {
> >         type string {
> >           pattern '.{0}';
> >         }
> >       }
> >     }
> >   }
> > }
> >
> > Therefore this change removed a redundant (perhaps even broken) =
rule.
>=20
> Agreed.
>=20
> Lada
>=20
> >
> > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netmod/current/msg16763.html
> > Jernej
> >
> > From: netmod [mailto:netmod-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Alex
> Campbell
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 9:59 PM
> > To: Martin Ciglan -X (mciglan - PANTHEON TECHNOLOGIES at Cisco)
> <mciglan@cisco.com>
> > Cc: Igor Foltin -X (ifoltin - PANTHEON TECHNOLOGIES at Cisco)
> <ifoltin@cisco.com>; netmod@ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: [netmod] Yang 1.1 change: Allow type "empty" in a key.
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > It means exactly what the summary says. In YANG 1.0 (RFC 6020) we =
have:
> >    A leaf that is part of the key can be of any built-in or derived
> >    type, except it MUST NOT be the built-in type "empty".
> > and in YANG 1.1 (RFC 7950) we have:
> >    A leaf that is part of the key can be of any built-in or
> >    derived type.
> >
> > In YANG 1.1, leaves of type "empty" are not disallowed from being =
keys.
> >
> > Note that since leaves of type "empty" only convey information =
through
> their presence or absence, and since
> > key leaves must always be present, key leaves of type "empty" convey =
no
> useful information.
> >
> > Alex
> >
> >
> > From: netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Martin Ciglan -X
> (mciglan - PANTHEON TECHNOLOGIES at Cisco) <mciglan@cisco.com>
> > Sent: Wednesday, 15 February 2017 2:48 a.m.
> > To: netmod@ietf.org
> > Cc: Igor Foltin -X (ifoltin - PANTHEON TECHNOLOGIES at Cisco)
> > Subject: [netmod] Yang 1.1 change: Allow type "empty" in a key.
> >
> > Hi all
> >
> > Yang 1.1 change:  Allow type "empty" in a key.
> >
> > What is the meaning of this change? We're interested from
> implementation point of view.
> >
> >   Thanks
> >
> >        Martin
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > netmod mailing list
> > netmod@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
>=20
> --
> Ladislav Lhotka, CZ.NIC Labs
> PGP Key ID: 0xB8F92B08A9F76C67
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20



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From: "Martin Ciglan -X (mciglan - PANTHEON TECHNOLOGIES at Cisco)" <mciglan@cisco.com>
To: Jernej Tuljak <jernej.tuljak@mg-soft.si>, "'Ladislav Lhotka'" <lhotka@nic.cz>
Thread-Topic: [netmod] Yang 1.1 change:  Allow type "empty" in a key.
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References: <1487080134376.87476@cisco.com> <1487105934602.29661@Aviatnet.com> <106501d28774$a0b5a2a0$e220e7e0$@mg-soft.si> <C3D06898-E9AF-4AB1-9982-146550E4A6E2@nic.cz>, <109901d28786$ddf2ccd0$99d86670$@mg-soft.si>
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Cc: "Igor Foltin -X \(ifoltin - PANTHEON TECHNOLOGIES at Cisco\)" <ifoltin@cisco.com>, "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [netmod] Yang 1.1 change:  Allow type "empty" in a key.
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Thanks for information, but still, from implementation point of view,=0A=
we've got empty keys in Map structures, searching for values...=0A=
that was my point.=0A=
________________________________________=0A=
Od: Jernej Tuljak <jernej.tuljak@mg-soft.si>=0A=
Odoslan=E9: 15. febru=E1ra 2017 13:27=0A=
Komu: 'Ladislav Lhotka'=0A=
K=F3pia: 'Alex Campbell'; Martin Ciglan -X (mciglan - PANTHEON TECHNOLOGIES=
 at Cisco); Igor Foltin -X (ifoltin - PANTHEON TECHNOLOGIES at Cisco); netm=
od@ietf.org=0A=
Predmet: RE: [netmod] Yang 1.1 change:  Allow type "empty" in a key.=0A=
=0A=
> -----Original Message-----=0A=
> From: Ladislav Lhotka [mailto:lhotka@nic.cz]=0A=
> Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 11:40 AM=0A=
> To: Jernej Tuljak <jernej.tuljak@mg-soft.si>=0A=
> Cc: Alex Campbell <Alex.Campbell@Aviatnet.com>; Martin Ciglan -X (mciglan=
=0A=
> - PANTHEON TECHNOLOGIES at Cisco) <mciglan@cisco.com>; Igor Foltin -X=0A=
> (ifoltin - PANTHEON TECHNOLOGIES at Cisco) <ifoltin@cisco.com>;=0A=
> netmod@ietf.org=0A=
> Subject: Re: [netmod] Yang 1.1 change: Allow type "empty" in a key.=0A=
>=0A=
>=0A=
> > On 15 Feb 2017, at 11:16, Jernej Tuljak <jernej.tuljak@mg-soft.si> wrot=
e:=0A=
> >=0A=
> > Plus, "empty keys" were aready allowed in YANG 1.=0A=
>=0A=
> Well, keys with "empty" type were not allowed. What you are saying is tha=
t=0A=
> the same (dubious) effect can be achieved in other ways that were=0A=
> permitted in YANG 1.=0A=
=0A=
Indeed. I meant =BBempty keys=AB. Quoting is hard. :)=0A=
=0A=
Jernej=0A=
=0A=
> Note also that while if in XML encoding an empty leaf=0A=
> and a leaf containing string of length 0 look the same, in JSON encoding =
they=0A=
> are different:=0A=
>=0A=
> "first": [null]=0A=
>=0A=
> versus=0A=
>=0A=
> "first": ""=0A=
>=0A=
> >=0A=
> > module empty-key {=0A=
> >   namespace "org:example:empty-key";=0A=
> >   prefix "ek";=0A=
> >=0A=
> >   container stuff {=0A=
> >     list item {=0A=
> >       key "first second";=0A=
> >       leaf first {=0A=
> >         type string {=0A=
> >           length 0;=0A=
> >         }=0A=
> >       }=0A=
> >       leaf second {=0A=
> >         type string {=0A=
> >           pattern '.{0}';=0A=
> >         }=0A=
> >       }=0A=
> >     }=0A=
> >   }=0A=
> > }=0A=
> >=0A=
> > Therefore this change removed a redundant (perhaps even broken) rule.=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Agreed.=0A=
>=0A=
> Lada=0A=
>=0A=
> >=0A=
> > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netmod/current/msg16763.html=0A=
> > Jernej=0A=
> >=0A=
> > From: netmod [mailto:netmod-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Alex=0A=
> Campbell=0A=
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 9:59 PM=0A=
> > To: Martin Ciglan -X (mciglan - PANTHEON TECHNOLOGIES at Cisco)=0A=
> <mciglan@cisco.com>=0A=
> > Cc: Igor Foltin -X (ifoltin - PANTHEON TECHNOLOGIES at Cisco)=0A=
> <ifoltin@cisco.com>; netmod@ietf.org=0A=
> > Subject: Re: [netmod] Yang 1.1 change: Allow type "empty" in a key.=0A=
> >=0A=
> > Hi,=0A=
> >=0A=
> > It means exactly what the summary says. In YANG 1.0 (RFC 6020) we have:=
=0A=
> >    A leaf that is part of the key can be of any built-in or derived=0A=
> >    type, except it MUST NOT be the built-in type "empty".=0A=
> > and in YANG 1.1 (RFC 7950) we have:=0A=
> >    A leaf that is part of the key can be of any built-in or=0A=
> >    derived type.=0A=
> >=0A=
> > In YANG 1.1, leaves of type "empty" are not disallowed from being keys.=
=0A=
> >=0A=
> > Note that since leaves of type "empty" only convey information through=
=0A=
> their presence or absence, and since=0A=
> > key leaves must always be present, key leaves of type "empty" convey no=
=0A=
> useful information.=0A=
> >=0A=
> > Alex=0A=
> >=0A=
> >=0A=
> > From: netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Martin Ciglan -X=0A=
> (mciglan - PANTHEON TECHNOLOGIES at Cisco) <mciglan@cisco.com>=0A=
> > Sent: Wednesday, 15 February 2017 2:48 a.m.=0A=
> > To: netmod@ietf.org=0A=
> > Cc: Igor Foltin -X (ifoltin - PANTHEON TECHNOLOGIES at Cisco)=0A=
> > Subject: [netmod] Yang 1.1 change: Allow type "empty" in a key.=0A=
> >=0A=
> > Hi all=0A=
> >=0A=
> > Yang 1.1 change:  Allow type "empty" in a key.=0A=
> >=0A=
> > What is the meaning of this change? We're interested from=0A=
> implementation point of view.=0A=
> >=0A=
> >   Thanks=0A=
> >=0A=
> >        Martin=0A=
> >=0A=
> > _______________________________________________=0A=
> > netmod mailing list=0A=
> > netmod@ietf.org=0A=
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod=0A=
>=0A=
> --=0A=
> Ladislav Lhotka, CZ.NIC Labs=0A=
> PGP Key ID: 0xB8F92B08A9F76C67=0A=
>=0A=
>=0A=
>=0A=
>=0A=
=0A=
=0A=


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From: Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz>
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To: "Martin Ciglan -X (mciglan - PANTHEON TECHNOLOGIES at Cisco)" <mciglan@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [netmod] Yang 1.1 change:  Allow type "empty" in a key.
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> On 15 Feb 2017, at 15:56, Martin Ciglan -X (mciglan - PANTHEON =
TECHNOLOGIES at Cisco) <mciglan@cisco.com> wrote:
>=20
> Thanks for information, but still, from implementation point of view,
> we've got empty keys in Map structures, searching for values...
> that was my point.

So what's your problem with them?

Lada

> ________________________________________
> Od: Jernej Tuljak <jernej.tuljak@mg-soft.si>
> Odoslan=C3=A9: 15. febru=C3=A1ra 2017 13:27
> Komu: 'Ladislav Lhotka'
> K=C3=B3pia: 'Alex Campbell'; Martin Ciglan -X (mciglan - PANTHEON =
TECHNOLOGIES at Cisco); Igor Foltin -X (ifoltin - PANTHEON TECHNOLOGIES =
at Cisco); netmod@ietf.org
> Predmet: RE: [netmod] Yang 1.1 change:  Allow type "empty" in a key.
>=20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Ladislav Lhotka [mailto:lhotka@nic.cz]
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 11:40 AM
>> To: Jernej Tuljak <jernej.tuljak@mg-soft.si>
>> Cc: Alex Campbell <Alex.Campbell@Aviatnet.com>; Martin Ciglan -X =
(mciglan
>> - PANTHEON TECHNOLOGIES at Cisco) <mciglan@cisco.com>; Igor Foltin -X
>> (ifoltin - PANTHEON TECHNOLOGIES at Cisco) <ifoltin@cisco.com>;
>> netmod@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [netmod] Yang 1.1 change: Allow type "empty" in a key.
>>=20
>>=20
>>> On 15 Feb 2017, at 11:16, Jernej Tuljak <jernej.tuljak@mg-soft.si> =
wrote:
>>>=20
>>> Plus, "empty keys" were aready allowed in YANG 1.
>>=20
>> Well, keys with "empty" type were not allowed. What you are saying is =
that
>> the same (dubious) effect can be achieved in other ways that were
>> permitted in YANG 1.
>=20
> Indeed. I meant =C2=BBempty keys=C2=AB. Quoting is hard. :)
>=20
> Jernej
>=20
>> Note also that while if in XML encoding an empty leaf
>> and a leaf containing string of length 0 look the same, in JSON =
encoding they
>> are different:
>>=20
>> "first": [null]
>>=20
>> versus
>>=20
>> "first": ""
>>=20
>>>=20
>>> module empty-key {
>>>  namespace "org:example:empty-key";
>>>  prefix "ek";
>>>=20
>>>  container stuff {
>>>    list item {
>>>      key "first second";
>>>      leaf first {
>>>        type string {
>>>          length 0;
>>>        }
>>>      }
>>>      leaf second {
>>>        type string {
>>>          pattern '.{0}';
>>>        }
>>>      }
>>>    }
>>>  }
>>> }
>>>=20
>>> Therefore this change removed a redundant (perhaps even broken) =
rule.
>>=20
>> Agreed.
>>=20
>> Lada
>>=20
>>>=20
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netmod/current/msg16763.html
>>> Jernej
>>>=20
>>> From: netmod [mailto:netmod-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Alex
>> Campbell
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 9:59 PM
>>> To: Martin Ciglan -X (mciglan - PANTHEON TECHNOLOGIES at Cisco)
>> <mciglan@cisco.com>
>>> Cc: Igor Foltin -X (ifoltin - PANTHEON TECHNOLOGIES at Cisco)
>> <ifoltin@cisco.com>; netmod@ietf.org
>>> Subject: Re: [netmod] Yang 1.1 change: Allow type "empty" in a key.
>>>=20
>>> Hi,
>>>=20
>>> It means exactly what the summary says. In YANG 1.0 (RFC 6020) we =
have:
>>>   A leaf that is part of the key can be of any built-in or derived
>>>   type, except it MUST NOT be the built-in type "empty".
>>> and in YANG 1.1 (RFC 7950) we have:
>>>   A leaf that is part of the key can be of any built-in or
>>>   derived type.
>>>=20
>>> In YANG 1.1, leaves of type "empty" are not disallowed from being =
keys.
>>>=20
>>> Note that since leaves of type "empty" only convey information =
through
>> their presence or absence, and since
>>> key leaves must always be present, key leaves of type "empty" convey =
no
>> useful information.
>>>=20
>>> Alex
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> From: netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Martin Ciglan -X
>> (mciglan - PANTHEON TECHNOLOGIES at Cisco) <mciglan@cisco.com>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, 15 February 2017 2:48 a.m.
>>> To: netmod@ietf.org
>>> Cc: Igor Foltin -X (ifoltin - PANTHEON TECHNOLOGIES at Cisco)
>>> Subject: [netmod] Yang 1.1 change: Allow type "empty" in a key.
>>>=20
>>> Hi all
>>>=20
>>> Yang 1.1 change:  Allow type "empty" in a key.
>>>=20
>>> What is the meaning of this change? We're interested from
>> implementation point of view.
>>>=20
>>>  Thanks
>>>=20
>>>       Martin
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> netmod mailing list
>>> netmod@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
>>=20
>> --
>> Ladislav Lhotka, CZ.NIC Labs
>> PGP Key ID: 0xB8F92B08A9F76C67
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>=20
>=20

--
Ladislav Lhotka, CZ.NIC Labs
PGP Key ID: 0xB8F92B08A9F76C67






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To: Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [netmod] Module tags
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--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/plain


Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com> writes:

> On 14/02/2017 16:30, Christian Hopps wrote:
>> Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com> writes:
>>> A roughly equivalent example might be perhaps like CDDB, where a program
>>> can take a CD track, and go and fetch the associated metadata from some
>>> known location without the metadata being embedded in the CD track itself.
>> Sure, but that is setup that way b/c the CD data is seen as read only
>> right? I don't think this is even the normal way to tag things. There
>> are tons of examples of the opposite where the item itself is tagged
>> (XML attributes, social media's #hashtags, cow ears, ...).
> It will be easier to change the tag on a cow ear than on a standardized
> YANG module, but I like your example ;-)
>
> It is outside my area of expertise, but I expect that most of the
> meta-data associated with a cow is not attached to the cow itself, but
> stored in some database somewhere.  The cow ear tag is more so that you
> can identify the right cow in the database.

On some other threads I've given the example of a tag that indicates an
"interface" (like java has interfaces), is present. In that case the
actual metadata (the interface definition) is present elsewhere and the
tag is just like a cow ear tag, i.e., a reference. This is the case with
most tag uses I think, the only difference may be the amount of
information that is represented by the tag.

Thanks,
Chris.

--=-=-=
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--=-=-=--


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On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 02:03:41AM -0500, Christian Hopps wrote:
> 
> On some other threads I've given the example of a tag that indicates an
> "interface" (like java has interfaces), is present. In that case the
> actual metadata (the interface definition) is present elsewhere and the
> tag is just like a cow ear tag, i.e., a reference. This is the case with
> most tag uses I think, the only difference may be the amount of
> information that is represented by the tag.
> 

I have doubts that this use case is realistic. To drive automation at
this level, you most likely need tagging of YANG objects and not YANG
modules - coarse grain tagging of modules will be of limited value.

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>


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From: "Sterne, Jason (Nokia - CA)" <jason.sterne@nokia.com>
To: "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: netmod-revised-datastores:  templates, interactions with RFC6243 'report-all'
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Subject: [netmod] netmod-revised-datastores:  templates, interactions with RFC6243 'report-all'
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Hi all,

draft-nmdsdt-netmod-revised-datastores-00 mentions that "Templates are expa=
nded when copied into <intended>".

That means the non-expanded template (i.e. the single copy of template data=
 itself) is in the running.

Is that original non-expanded template data (which is presumably part of th=
e schema) also present in the <intended> DS (along with the expanded copies=
 of the data) ?

What would an RFC6243 <get-config> response from the <running> DS with 'rep=
ort-all' be expected to return for a leaf that is deleted in the 'main' par=
t of the config but has been overridden by a value for that leaf in a templ=
ate ?

Example -> some leaf-a with a default value of 50, that is not present in t=
he config, but is present in a template that sets leaf-a to 55.   A 'report=
-all' response could show a value for leaf-a in the template and in the mai=
n part of the config.  What value would be returned for leaf-a in the main =
part of the config ?  50 (since 'running' doesn't have expanded templates) =
or 55 (i.e. the result of the value of leaf-a due to the template expansion=
) ?

The spirit of report-all seems to be to reflect what values the router is u=
sing, even when they aren't explicitly configured.  So 55 is the actual val=
ue being used in the system.  But returning 55 would mean we are returning =
the 'expanded' view (which the running isn't supposed to have).

Regards,
Jason

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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi all,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">draft-nmdsdt-netmod-revised-datastores-00 mentions t=
hat &#8220;Templates are expanded when copied into &lt;intended&gt;&#8221;.=
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">That means the non-expanded template (i.e. the singl=
e copy of template data itself) is in the running.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Is that original non-expanded template data (which i=
s presumably part of the schema) also present in the &lt;intended&gt; DS (a=
long with the expanded copies of the data) ?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">What would an RFC6243 &lt;get-config&gt; response fr=
om the &lt;running&gt; DS with &#8216;report-all&#8217; be expected to retu=
rn for a leaf that is deleted in the &#8216;main&#8217; part of the config =
but has been overridden by a value for that leaf in a template ?<o:p></o:p>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Example -&gt; some leaf-a with a default value of 50=
, that is not present in the config, but is present in a template that sets=
 leaf-a to 55.&nbsp;&nbsp; A &#8216;report-all&#8217; response could show a=
 value for leaf-a in the template and in the main part of the
 config.&nbsp; What value would be returned for leaf-a in the main part of =
the config ?&nbsp; 50 (since &#8216;running&#8217; doesn&#8217;t have expan=
ded templates) or 55 (i.e. the result of the value of leaf-a due to the tem=
plate expansion) ?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The spirit of report-all seems to be to reflect what=
 values the router is using, even when they aren&#8217;t explicitly configu=
red.&nbsp; So 55 is the actual value being used in the system.&nbsp; But re=
turning 55 would mean we are returning the &#8216;expanded&#8217;
 view (which the running isn&#8217;t supposed to have).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Jason<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From: Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>
To: "Sterne, Jason (Nokia - CA)" <jason.sterne@nokia.com>, "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [netmod] netmod-revised-datastores:  templates, interactions with RFC6243 'report-all'
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Subject: Re: [netmod] netmod-revised-datastores:  templates, interactions with RFC6243 'report-all'
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Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2017 23:32:53 +0100
From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
To: "Sterne, Jason (Nokia - CA)" <jason.sterne@nokia.com>
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Subject: Re: [netmod] netmod-revised-datastores:  templates, interactions with RFC6243 'report-all'
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On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 07:36:41PM +0000, Sterne, Jason (Nokia - CA) wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> draft-nmdsdt-netmod-revised-datastores-00 mentions that "Templates are expanded when copied into <intended>".

Before I answer, here is a disclaimer: I have never implemented nor
used one of the proprietary template mechanisms. I do not know what
running code actually does....
 
> That means the non-expanded template (i.e. the single copy of template data itself) is in the running.
> 
> Is that original non-expanded template data (which is presumably part of the schema) also present in the <intended> DS (along with the expanded copies of the data) ?

Most likely yes.

> What would an RFC6243 <get-config> response from the <running> DS with 'report-all' be expected to return for a leaf that is deleted in the 'main' part of the config but has been overridden by a value for that leaf in a template ?
> 
> Example -> some leaf-a with a default value of 50, that is not present in the config, but is present in a template that sets leaf-a to 55.   A 'report-all' response could show a value for leaf-a in the template and in the main part of the config.  What value would be returned for leaf-a in the main part of the config ?  50 (since 'running' doesn't have expanded templates) or 55 (i.e. the result of the value of leaf-a due to the template expansion) ?

I think reading <running/> with report-all would give you 50 and
reading <intended/> with report-all would give you 55.

> The spirit of report-all seems to be to reflect what values the router is using, even when they aren't explicitly configured.  So 55 is the actual value being used in the system.  But returning 55 would mean we are returning the 'expanded' view (which the running isn't supposed to have).

Right. But note: Whether the router is actually _using_ 55 is a very
different question; if you want to know what the router is _using_,
you better read the operational state datastore.

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>


From nobody Mon Feb 20 04:26:48 2017
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From: Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz>
To: Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>, "Sterne\, Jason \(Nokia - CA\)" <jason.sterne@nokia.com>, "netmod\@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [netmod] netmod-revised-datastores:  templates, interactions with RFC6243 'report-all'
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Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net> writes:

> Hi Jason,
>
>> draft-nmdsdt-netmod-revised-datastores-00 mentions that =E2=80=9CTemplat=
es
>> are expanded when copied into <intended>=E2=80=9D.
>>
>> That means the non-expanded template (i.e. the single copy of template d=
ata itself)
>> is in the running.
>
> Yes.
>
>> Is that original non-expanded template data (which is presumably part of=
 the schema)
>> also present in the <intended> DS (along with the expanded copies of the=
 data) ?
>
> Yes, the YANG would have to define schema for both the template and
> expanded forms.

Are you saying that running and intended (may) have different schemas?
The draft indicates that only intended is subject to validation. Either
way, it significantly changes the rules of the game because validation
in RFC 7950 is bound to running.

I cannot help myself: we need to remove all dependecies on protocols,
specific datastores and data representation (encoding) from the YANG spec in
order to make it generally applicable.

Lada

> No, having both data values in 'intended' that would be redundant and con=
fusing.
>
>> What would an RFC6243 <get-config> response from the <running> DS with =
=E2=80=98report-all=E2=80=99
>> be expected to return for a leaf that is deleted in the =E2=80=98main=E2=
=80=99 part of the config but has
>> been overridden by a value for that leaf in a template ?
>
> RFC6243 'report-all' doesn't have any template awareness, it only relates=
 to default
> values.   Assuming the deleted leaf has a default value, then that defaul=
t value would
> be reported and, when using 'report-all-tagged', it would be tagged as su=
ch.
>
>> Example -> some leaf-a with a default value of 50, that is not present i=
n the config, but
>> is present in a template that sets leaf-a to 55.   A =E2=80=98report-all=
=E2=80=99 response could show a
>> value for leaf-a in the template and in the main part of the config.  Wh=
at value would
>> be returned for leaf-a in the main part of the config ?  50 (since =E2=
=80=98running=E2=80=99 doesn=E2=80=99t have
>> expanded templates) or 55 (i.e. the result of the value of leaf-a due to=
 the template
>> expansion) ?
>
> 50.
>
>> The spirit of report-all seems to be to reflect what values the router i=
s using, even when
>> they aren=E2=80=99t explicitly configured.  So 55 is the actual value be=
ing used in the system.  But
>> returning 55 would mean we are returning the =E2=80=98expanded=E2=80=99 =
view (which the running isn=E2=80=99t
>> supposed to have).
>
> What is needed is a <get-config> flag like 'report-inheritance' that does=
 some combination
> of template-expansion and returning metadata for where values came from. =
 However, this
> is only going to be defined when someone writes a "template" draft.
>
> Kent (as a contributor)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> netmod mailing list
> netmod@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod

--=20
Ladislav Lhotka, CZ.NIC Labs
PGP Key ID: 0xB8F92B08A9F76C67


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From: Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>
To: Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz>, "Sterne, Jason (Nokia - CA)" <jason.sterne@nokia.com>, "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>
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From: Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz>
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Subject: Re: [netmod] netmod-revised-datastores:  templates, interactions with RFC6243 'report-all'
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> On 20 Feb 2017, at 15:53, Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net> wrote:
>=20
>=20
> Hi Lada,
>=20
>=20
>>> Yes, the YANG would have to define schema for both the template and
>>> expanded forms.
>>=20
>> Are you saying that running and intended (may) have different =
schemas?
>> The draft indicates that only intended is subject to validation. =
Either
>> way, it significantly changes the rules of the game because =
validation
>> in RFC 7950 is bound to running.
>=20
> I've been assuming that there is only one configuration schema, but =
that the template schema wouldn't apply in the intended datastore.  This =
might be an academic distinction if <edit/copy-config>, or RESTCONF's =
unified datastore, only act on the running datastore.  Yes,

I think my problem is rather the opposite: could running containing =
templates be invalid? Of course, it depends on how templates work, which =
isn't clear from the document (yet).

>  we'd want to support read-only operations on 'intended', but I'm not =
entirely sure about read-write operations, including the <lock> or even =
the <validate> operations.
>=20
> Regarding moving validation from running to intended, I think that =
Section 6.3 might be just poorly worded.  At least, I took it to mean =
that semantic validation conceptually takes place after the system has =
removed inactive data and flattened templates.  Not only does it seem =
intuitive, but it also helps simplify must/when/etc. expressions, as =
they only need to target the expanded/flattened template paths.

OK, but RFC 7950 list a number of properties that must be true in "all =
data trees". I suspect that running (or candidate) with unexpanded =
templates might break some of these properties.

>=20
>=20
>> I cannot help myself: we need to remove all dependecies on protocols,
>> specific datastores and data representation (encoding) from the YANG
>> spec in order to make it generally applicable.
>=20
> I made a similar comment recently here: =
https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netconf/current/msg12356.html.  =
Read the remainder of the thread to see the response there.

Yes, this has been discussed several times, in fact I proposed it even =
before work on YANG 1.1 had started (at IETF 87). Juergen wants to have =
an architecture document first, but I think we could instead limit the =
scope of YANG, make it into kind of schema language for hierarchical =
data, and use as a building block that does validation.

Lada

>=20
> That said, I definitely think that a 7950bis should remove all of the =
XML and NETCONF encoding text in RFC7950.  A number of these kinds of =
changes are being tracked here: =
https://github.com/netmod-wg/yang-next/issues.
>=20
>=20
> Kent  // as an author
>=20
>=20

--
Ladislav Lhotka, CZ.NIC Labs
PGP Key ID: 0xB8F92B08A9F76C67






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From: "Mehmet Ersue" <mersue@gmail.com>
To: "'Ladislav Lhotka'" <lhotka@nic.cz>, "'Kent Watsen'" <kwatsen@juniper.net>
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Subject: Re: [netmod] netmod-revised-datastores:  templates, interactions with RFC6243 'report-all'
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> >> I cannot help myself: we need to remove all dependecies on protocols, 
> >> specific datastores and data representation (encoding) from the YANG 
> >> spec in order to make it generally applicable.
> > 
> > I made a similar comment recently here:
https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/netconf/current/msg12356.html.  Read
the remainder of the thread to see the response there.
>
> Yes, this has been discussed several times, in fact I proposed it even
before work on YANG 1.1 had started (at IETF 87). Juergen wants to have an
architecture document first, but I think we could instead limit the 
> scope of YANG, make it into kind of schema language for hierarchical data,
and use as a building block that does validation.

I fully agree and strongly support making YANG generally applicable and
independent of protocols and datastores.
We also agreed to put out encoding rules for particular protocols out of
YANG specification.

Mehmet

> -----Original Message-----
> From: netmod [mailto:netmod-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ladislav
> Lhotka
> Sent: Monday, February 20, 2017 4:49 PM
> To: Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>
> Cc: netmod@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [netmod] netmod-revised-datastores: templates, interactions
> with RFC6243 'report-all'
> 
> 
> > On 20 Feb 2017, at 15:53, Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hi Lada,
> >
> >
> >>> Yes, the YANG would have to define schema for both the template and
> >>> expanded forms.
> >>
> >> Are you saying that running and intended (may) have different schemas?
> >> The draft indicates that only intended is subject to validation.
> >> Either way, it significantly changes the rules of the game because
> >> validation in RFC 7950 is bound to running.
> >
> > I've been assuming that there is only one configuration schema, but
> > that the template schema wouldn't apply in the intended datastore.
> > This might be an academic distinction if <edit/copy-config>, or
> > RESTCONF's unified datastore, only act on the running datastore.  Yes,
> 
> I think my problem is rather the opposite: could running containing
templates
> be invalid? Of course, it depends on how templates work, which isn't clear
> from the document (yet).
> 
> >  we'd want to support read-only operations on 'intended', but I'm not
> entirely sure about read-write operations, including the <lock> or even
the
> <validate> operations.
> >
> > Regarding moving validation from running to intended, I think that
Section
> 6.3 might be just poorly worded.  At least, I took it to mean that
semantic
> validation conceptually takes place after the system has removed inactive
> data and flattened templates.  Not only does it seem intuitive, but it
also
> helps simplify must/when/etc. expressions, as they only need to target the
> expanded/flattened template paths.
> 
> OK, but RFC 7950 list a number of properties that must be true in "all
data
> trees". I suspect that running (or candidate) with unexpanded templates
> might break some of these properties.
> 
> >
> >
> >> I cannot help myself: we need to remove all dependecies on protocols,
> >> specific datastores and data representation (encoding) from the YANG
> >> spec in order to make it generally applicable.
> >
> > I made a similar comment recently here: https://www.ietf.org/mail-
> archive/web/netconf/current/msg12356.html.  Read the remainder of the
> thread to see the response there.
> 
> Yes, this has been discussed several times, in fact I proposed it even
before
> work on YANG 1.1 had started (at IETF 87). Juergen wants to have an
> architecture document first, but I think we could instead limit the scope
of
> YANG, make it into kind of schema language for hierarchical data, and use
as
> a building block that does validation.
> 
> Lada
> 
> >
> > That said, I definitely think that a 7950bis should remove all of the
XML and
> NETCONF encoding text in RFC7950.  A number of these kinds of changes are
> being tracked here: https://github.com/netmod-wg/yang-next/issues.
> >
> >
> > Kent  // as an author
> >
> >
> 
> --
> Ladislav Lhotka, CZ.NIC Labs
> PGP Key ID: 0xB8F92B08A9F76C67
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> netmod mailing list
> netmod@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod


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To: "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>, "Qudan (Beijing-NOS)" <qudan.qudan@huawei.com>, "Guopeipei (Peipei Guo)" <guopeipei@huawei.com>, Yangang <yangang@huawei.com>
Thread-Topic: Hi all, one issue about YANG deviate's Substatements 
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Subject: [netmod] Hi all, one issue about YANG deviate's Substatements
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Hi all,

  When we define YANG models, there has one issue about "deviate's Substate=
ments"

  In section 7.20.3.2.  The "deviate" Statement given the Substatements sup=
ported, but "when" not there.
config       | 7.21.1       | 0..1        |
               | default      | 7.6.4, 7.7.4 | 0..n        |
               | mandatory    | 7.6.5        | 0..1        |
               | max-elements | 7.7.6        | 0..1        |
               | min-elements | 7.7.5        | 0..1        |
               | must         | 7.5.3        | 0..n        |
               | type         | 7.4          | 0..1        |
               | unique       | 7.8.3        | 0..n        |
               | units        | 7.3.3        | 0..1        |
               +--------------+--------------+-------------+
 Now, we have the scenario to add "when" constrains when deviate the existe=
d YANG module, how I can do it?

 May be it need extend the Substatements of "devite" to add "when", what's =
yours opinion, please help to share, thanks.

Thanks & regards

Walker (Guangying zheng)



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<font face=3D"Calibri" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;">
<div align=3D"left" style=3D"text-align:justify;">Hi all,</div>
<div align=3D"left" style=3D"text-align:justify;">&nbsp;</div>
<div align=3D"left" style=3D"text-align:justify;">&nbsp; When we define YAN=
G models, there has one issue about &#8220;<font face=3D"Courier New" size=
=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;">deviate's Substatements</span></font=
><font face=3D"Courier New" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;">&#82=
21;</span></font></div>
<div align=3D"left" style=3D"text-align:justify;"><font face=3D"Times New R=
oman">&nbsp;</font></div>
<div align=3D"left" style=3D"text-align:justify;">&nbsp; In section <font f=
ace=3D"Courier New" size=3D"2" color=3D"#000032"><span style=3D"font-size:1=
0pt;"><b>7.20.3.2.&nbsp; The &quot;deviate&quot; Statement</b></span></font=
><font face=3D"Courier New" size=3D"2" color=3D"#000032"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:10pt;"><b>
given the </b></span></font><font face=3D"Courier New" size=3D"2"><span sty=
le=3D"font-size:10pt;">Substatements</span></font><font face=3D"Courier New=
" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;"> supported, but </span></font>=
<font face=3D"Courier New" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;">&#822=
0;</span></font><font face=3D"Courier New" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10pt;">when</span></font><font face=3D"Courier New" size=3D"2"><span st=
yle=3D"font-size:10pt;">&#8221;</span></font><font face=3D"Courier New" siz=
e=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;">
not there.</span></font></div>
<div style=3D"text-indent:85pt;"><font face=3D"Courier New" size=3D"2"><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10pt;">config&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | 7.=
21.1&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | 0..1&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp; |</span></font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Courier New" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;">=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp; | default&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | 7.6.4, 7.7.4 | 0..n&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |</span></font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Courier New" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;">=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp; | mandatory&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | 7.6.5&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp; | 0..1&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |</span></f=
ont></div>
<div><font face=3D"Courier New" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;">=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp; | max-elements | 7.7.6&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
| 0..1&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |</span></font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Courier New" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;">=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp; | min-elements | 7.7.5&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
| 0..1&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |</span></font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Courier New" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;">=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp; | must&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | 7.5.3&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | 0..n&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp; |</span></font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Courier New" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;">=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp; | type&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | 7.4&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | 0..1&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |</span></font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Courier New" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;">=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp; | unique&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | 7.8.3&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | 0..n&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp; |</span></font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Courier New" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;">=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp; | units&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | 7.3.3&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | 0..1&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp; |</span></font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Courier New" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;">=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp; &#43;--------------&#43;--------------&#43;-------------&#43;</sp=
an></font></div>
<div align=3D"left" style=3D"text-align:justify;"> Now, we have the scenari=
o to <font face=3D"Courier New" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;">=
add </span></font><font face=3D"Courier New" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font=
-size:10pt;">&#8220;</span></font><font face=3D"Courier New" size=3D"2"><sp=
an style=3D"font-size:10pt;">when</span></font><font face=3D"Courier New" s=
ize=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;">&#8221;</span></font><font face=
=3D"Courier New" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;">
</span></font><font face=3D"Courier New" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10pt;">constrains</span></font><font face=3D"Courier New" size=3D"2"><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10pt;"> when deviate the exis</span></font><font face=
=3D"Courier New" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;">ted
YANG </span></font><font face=3D"Courier New" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:10pt;">module</span></font><font face=3D"Courier New" size=3D"2"><sp=
an style=3D"font-size:10pt;">, how I can do it? </span></font></div>
<div align=3D"left" style=3D"text-align:justify;"><font face=3D"Courier New=
" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;">&nbsp;</span></font></div>
<div align=3D"left" style=3D"text-align:justify;"><font face=3D"Courier New=
" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;"> May be it need extend the Sub=
statements of &#8220;devite&#8221; to add &#8221;when&#8221;, what&#8217;s =
yours opinion, please help to share, thanks.</span></font></div>
<div align=3D"left" style=3D"text-align:justify;"><font face=3D"Times New R=
oman">&nbsp;</font></div>
<div align=3D"left" style=3D"text-align:justify;"><font face=3D"Courier New=
" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;">Thanks &amp; regards</span></f=
ont></div>
<div align=3D"left" style=3D"text-align:justify;"><font face=3D"Times New R=
oman">&nbsp;</font></div>
<div align=3D"left" style=3D"text-align:justify;">Walker (Guangying zheng)<=
/div>
<div align=3D"left" style=3D"text-align:justify;"><font face=3D"Times New R=
oman">&nbsp;</font></div>
<div align=3D"left" style=3D"text-align:justify;"><font face=3D"Times New R=
oman">&nbsp;</font></div>
</span></font>
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From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2017 11:23:59 -0800
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Cc: "Qudan \(Beijing-NOS\)" <qudan.qudan@huawei.com>, "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>, Yangang <yangang@huawei.com>
Subject: Re: [netmod] Hi all, one issue about YANG deviate's Substatements
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On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 12:32 AM, Zhengguangying (Walker) <
zhengguangying@huawei.com> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
>   When we define YANG models, there has one issue about =E2=80=9Cdeviate'=
s
> Substatements=E2=80=9D
>
>   In section *7.20.3.2.  The "deviate" Statement** given the *
> Substatements supported, but =E2=80=9Cwhen=E2=80=9D not there.
> config       | 7.21.1       | 0..1        |
>                | default      | 7.6.4, 7.7.4 | 0..n        |
>                | mandatory    | 7.6.5        | 0..1        |
>                | max-elements | 7.7.6        | 0..1        |
>                | min-elements | 7.7.5        | 0..1        |
>                | must         | 7.5.3        | 0..n        |
>                | type         | 7.4          | 0..1        |
>                | unique       | 7.8.3        | 0..n        |
>                | units        | 7.3.3        | 0..1        |
>                +--------------+--------------+-------------+
> Now, we have the scenario to add =E2=80=9Cwhen=E2=80=9D constrains when d=
eviate the existed
> YANG module, how I can do it?
>
>

You cannot add when-stmts to deviations.
It is not supported.  Deviations cannot be conditional.


> May be it need extend the Substatements of =E2=80=9Cdevite=E2=80=9D to ad=
d =E2=80=9Dwhen=E2=80=9D, what=E2=80=99s
> yours opinion, please help to share, thanks.
>
> Thanks & regards
>
> Walker (Guangying zheng)
>
>
>


Andy


>
> _______________________________________________
> netmod mailing list
> netmod@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 12:32 AM, Zhengguangying (Walker) <span dir=3D"=
ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zhengguangying@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">zhe=
ngguangying@huawei.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1=
ex">






<div>
<font face=3D"Calibri" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
<div align=3D"left" style=3D"text-align:justify">Hi all,</div>
<div align=3D"left" style=3D"text-align:justify">=C2=A0</div>
<div align=3D"left" style=3D"text-align:justify">=C2=A0 When we define YANG=
 models, there has one issue about =E2=80=9C<font face=3D"Courier New" size=
=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt">deviate&#39;s Substatements</span></f=
ont><font face=3D"Courier New" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt">=
=E2=80=9D</span></font></div>
<div align=3D"left" style=3D"text-align:justify"><font face=3D"Times New Ro=
man">=C2=A0</font></div>
<div align=3D"left" style=3D"text-align:justify">=C2=A0 In section <font fa=
ce=3D"Courier New" size=3D"2" color=3D"#000032"><span style=3D"font-size:10=
pt"><b>7.20.3.2.=C2=A0 The &quot;deviate&quot; Statement</b></span></font><=
font face=3D"Courier New" size=3D"2" color=3D"#000032"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10pt"><b>
given the </b></span></font><font face=3D"Courier New" size=3D"2"><span sty=
le=3D"font-size:10pt">Substatements</span></font><font face=3D"Courier New"=
 size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt"> supported, but </span></font><f=
ont face=3D"Courier New" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt">=E2=80=
=9C</span></font><font face=3D"Courier New" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10pt">when</span></font><font face=3D"Courier New" size=3D"2"><span st=
yle=3D"font-size:10pt">=E2=80=9D</span></font><font face=3D"Courier New" si=
ze=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt">
not there.</span></font></div>
<div style=3D"text-indent:85pt"><font face=3D"Courier New" size=3D"2"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:10pt">config=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 | 7.21=
.1=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 | 0..1=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 |</span></font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Courier New" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 | default=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 | 7.6.4, 7.7.4 | 0..n=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 |</span></font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Courier New" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 | mandatory=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 | 7.6.5=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 | 0..1=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 |</span></=
font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Courier New" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 | max-elements | 7.7.6=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
| 0..1=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 |</span></font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Courier New" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 | min-elements | 7.7.5=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
| 0..1=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 |</span></font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Courier New" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 | must=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 | 7.5.3=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 | 0..n=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 |</span></font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Courier New" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 | type=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 | 7.4=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 | 0..1=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 |</span></font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Courier New" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 | unique=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 | 7.8.3=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 | 0..n=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 |</span></font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Courier New" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 | units=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 | 7.3.3=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 | 0..1=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 |</span></font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Courier New" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 +--------------+--------------<wbr>+-------------+</span></font><=
/div>
<div align=3D"left" style=3D"text-align:justify"> Now, we have the scenario=
 to <font face=3D"Courier New" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt">ad=
d </span></font><font face=3D"Courier New" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10pt">=E2=80=9C</span></font><font face=3D"Courier New" size=3D"2"><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10pt">when</span></font><font face=3D"Courier New" siz=
e=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt">=E2=80=9D</span></font><font face=3D=
"Courier New" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt">
</span></font><font face=3D"Courier New" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10pt">constrains</span></font><font face=3D"Courier New" size=3D"2"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:10pt"> when deviate the exis</span></font><font face=3D=
"Courier New" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt">ted
YANG </span></font><font face=3D"Courier New" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:10pt">module</span></font><font face=3D"Courier New" size=3D"2"><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10pt">, how I can do it? </span></font></div>
<div align=3D"left" style=3D"text-align:justify"><font face=3D"Courier New"=
 size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt">=C2=A0</span></font></div></span=
></font></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>You cannot add when-stmts to=
 deviations.</div><div>It is not supported.=C2=A0 Deviations cannot be cond=
itional.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m=
argin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><font fa=
ce=3D"Calibri" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
<div align=3D"left" style=3D"text-align:justify"><font face=3D"Courier New"=
 size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt"> May be it need extend the Subst=
atements of =E2=80=9Cdevite=E2=80=9D to add =E2=80=9Dwhen=E2=80=9D, what=E2=
=80=99s yours opinion, please help to share, thanks.</span></font></div>
<div align=3D"left" style=3D"text-align:justify"><font face=3D"Times New Ro=
man">=C2=A0</font></div>
<div align=3D"left" style=3D"text-align:justify"><font face=3D"Courier New"=
 size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt">Thanks &amp; regards</span></fon=
t></div>
<div align=3D"left" style=3D"text-align:justify"><font face=3D"Times New Ro=
man">=C2=A0</font></div>
<div align=3D"left" style=3D"text-align:justify">Walker (Guangying zheng)</=
div>
<div align=3D"left" style=3D"text-align:justify"><font face=3D"Times New Ro=
man">=C2=A0</font></div>
<div align=3D"left" style=3D"text-align:justify"><font face=3D"Times New Ro=
man">=C2=A0</font></div></span></font></div></blockquote><div><br></div><di=
v><br></div><div>Andy</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quot=
e" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">=
<div><font face=3D"Calibri" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
</span></font>
</div>

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>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div></div>

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From: Alex Campbell <Alex.Campbell@Aviatnet.com>
To: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>, "Zhengguangying (Walker)" <zhengguangying@huawei.com>
Thread-Topic: [netmod] Hi all, one issue about YANG deviate's Substatements
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Subject: Re: [netmod] Hi all, one issue about YANG deviate's Substatements
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Hi,


I believe you misunderstood the intention.

A "when" statement inside a deviation would simply add/remove/update a "whe=
n" statement in the target module. It would not make the deviation conditio=
nal.


I asked this some time ago, and for some reason I was told that it would be=
 overly complex to implement, and to use a "must" statement instead. But I =
disagree with this resolution.


Alex


________________________________
From: netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Andy Bierman <andy@yuma=
works.com>
Sent: Wednesday, 22 February 2017 8:23 a.m.
To: Zhengguangying (Walker)
Cc: Qudan (Beijing-NOS); netmod@ietf.org; Yangang
Subject: Re: [netmod] Hi all, one issue about YANG deviate's Substatements



On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 12:32 AM, Zhengguangying (Walker) <zhengguangying@h=
uawei.com<mailto:zhengguangying@huawei.com>> wrote:
Hi all,

  When we define YANG models, there has one issue about "deviate's Substate=
ments"

  In section 7.20.3.2.  The "deviate" Statement given the Substatements sup=
ported, but "when" not there.
config       | 7.21.1       | 0..1        |
               | default      | 7.6.4, 7.7.4 | 0..n        |
               | mandatory    | 7.6.5        | 0..1        |
               | max-elements | 7.7.6        | 0..1        |
               | min-elements | 7.7.5        | 0..1        |
               | must         | 7.5.3        | 0..n        |
               | type         | 7.4          | 0..1        |
               | unique       | 7.8.3        | 0..n        |
               | units        | 7.3.3        | 0..1        |
               +--------------+--------------+-------------+
Now, we have the scenario to add "when" constrains when deviate the existed=
 YANG module, how I can do it?


You cannot add when-stmts to deviations.
It is not supported.  Deviations cannot be conditional.

May be it need extend the Substatements of "devite" to add "when", what's y=
ours opinion, please help to share, thanks.

Thanks & regards

Walker (Guangying zheng)




Andy


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<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-=
1">
<style type=3D"text/css" style=3D"display:none"><!--P{margin-top:0;margin-b=
ottom:0;} --></style>
</head>
<body dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:#000000;background-color:#F=
FFFFF;font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;">
<p>Hi,</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>I believe you misunderstood the intention.</p>
<p>A &quot;when&quot; statement inside a deviation would simply add/remove/=
update a &quot;when&quot; statement in the target module. It would not make=
 the deviation conditional.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>I asked this some time ago, and for some reason I was told that it would=
 be overly complex to implement, and to use a &quot;must&quot; statement in=
stead. But I disagree with this resolution.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Alex<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(33, 33, 33);">
<hr tabindex=3D"-1" style=3D"display:inline-block; width:98%">
<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font style=3D"font-size:11pt" color=
=3D"#000000" face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif"><b>From:</b> netmod &lt;netmod-bo=
unces@ietf.org&gt; on behalf of Andy Bierman &lt;andy@yumaworks.com&gt;<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, 22 February 2017 8:23 a.m.<br>
<b>To:</b> Zhengguangying (Walker)<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Qudan (Beijing-NOS); netmod@ietf.org; Yangang<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [netmod] Hi all, one issue about YANG deviate's Substat=
ements</font>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
</div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 12:32 AM, Zhengguangying=
 (Walker)
<span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zhengguangying@huawei.com" target=
=3D"_blank">zhengguangying@huawei.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex; border-left:1=
px #ccc solid; padding-left:1ex">
<div><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Calibri"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
<div style=3D"text-align:justify" align=3D"left">Hi all,</div>
<div style=3D"text-align:justify" align=3D"left">&nbsp;</div>
<div style=3D"text-align:justify" align=3D"left">&nbsp; When we define YANG=
 models, there has one issue about &#8220;<font size=3D"2" face=3D"Courier =
New"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt">deviate's Substatements</span></font><f=
ont size=3D"2" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt">&#8221;<=
/span></font></div>
<div style=3D"text-align:justify" align=3D"left"><font face=3D"Times New Ro=
man">&nbsp;</font></div>
<div style=3D"text-align:justify" align=3D"left">&nbsp; In section <font si=
ze=3D"2" color=3D"#000032" face=3D"Courier New">
<span style=3D"font-size:10pt"><b>7.20.3.2.&nbsp; The &quot;deviate&quot; S=
tatement</b></span></font><font size=3D"2" color=3D"#000032" face=3D"Courie=
r New"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt"><b> given the
</b></span></font><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"font=
-size:10pt">Substatements</span></font><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Courier New=
"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt"> supported, but
</span></font><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10pt">&#8220;</span></font><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Courier New"><span st=
yle=3D"font-size:10pt">when</span></font><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Courier N=
ew"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt">&#8221;</span></font><font size=3D"2" fa=
ce=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt">
 not there.</span></font></div>
<div style=3D"text-indent:85pt"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Courier New"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:10pt">config&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | 7.21=
.1&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | 0..1&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp; |</span></font></div>
<div><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt">&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp; | default&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | 7.6.4, 7.7.4 | 0..n&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |</span></font></div>
<div><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt">&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp; | mandatory&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | 7.6.5&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp; | 0..1&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |</span></fo=
nt></div>
<div><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt">&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp; | max-elements | 7.7.6&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |=
 0..1&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |</span></font></div>
<div><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt">&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp; | min-elements | 7.7.5&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |=
 0..1&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |</span></font></div>
<div><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt">&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp; | must&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | 7.5.3&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | 0..n&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp; |</span></font></div>
<div><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt">&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp; | type&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | 7.4&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | 0..1&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |</span></font></div>
<div><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt">&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp; | unique&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | 7.8.3&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | 0..n&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p; |</span></font></div>
<div><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt">&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp; | units&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | 7.3.3&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | 0..1&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp; |</span></font></div>
<div><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt">&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp; &#43;--------------&#43;--------------<wbr>&#43;-------------&#43;=
</span></font></div>
<div style=3D"text-align:justify" align=3D"left">Now, we have the scenario =
to <font size=3D"2" face=3D"Courier New">
<span style=3D"font-size:10pt">add </span></font><font size=3D"2" face=3D"C=
ourier New"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt">&#8220;</span></font><font size=
=3D"2" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt">when</span></fon=
t><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt">&#82=
21;</span></font><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10pt">
</span></font><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:10pt">constrains</span></font><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Courier New"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:10pt"> when deviate the exis</span></font><font size=3D=
"2" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt">ted
 YANG </span></font><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Courier New"><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:10pt">module</span></font><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Courier New"><sp=
an style=3D"font-size:10pt">, how I can do it?
</span></font></div>
<div style=3D"text-align:justify" align=3D"left"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"C=
ourier New"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt">&nbsp;</span></font></div>
</span></font></div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>You cannot add when-stmts to deviations.</div>
<div>It is not supported.&nbsp; Deviations cannot be conditional.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex; border-left:1=
px #ccc solid; padding-left:1ex">
<div><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Calibri"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">
<div style=3D"text-align:justify" align=3D"left"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"C=
ourier New"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt">May be it need extend the Substa=
tements of &#8220;devite&#8221; to add &#8221;when&#8221;, what&#8217;s you=
rs opinion, please help to share, thanks.</span></font></div>
<div style=3D"text-align:justify" align=3D"left"><font face=3D"Times New Ro=
man">&nbsp;</font></div>
<div style=3D"text-align:justify" align=3D"left"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"C=
ourier New"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt">Thanks &amp; regards</span></fon=
t></div>
<div style=3D"text-align:justify" align=3D"left"><font face=3D"Times New Ro=
man">&nbsp;</font></div>
<div style=3D"text-align:justify" align=3D"left">Walker (Guangying zheng)</=
div>
<div style=3D"text-align:justify" align=3D"left"><font face=3D"Times New Ro=
man">&nbsp;</font></div>
<div style=3D"text-align:justify" align=3D"left"><font face=3D"Times New Ro=
man">&nbsp;</font></div>
</span></font></div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Andy</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex; border-left:1=
px #ccc solid; padding-left:1ex">
<div><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Calibri"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt"></s=
pan></font></div>
<br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
netmod mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:netmod@ietf.org">netmod@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod" rel=3D"noreferrer"=
 target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/netmod</a><br=
>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From nobody Tue Feb 21 13:35:58 2017
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From: Alex Campbell <Alex.Campbell@Aviatnet.com>
To: Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>, "Clyde Wildes (cwildes)" <cwildes@cisco.com>, "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [netmod] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-netmod-syslog-model-11
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I can confirm that this new draft addresses my concerns and doesn't add any=
 new ones.


________________________________
From: Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>
Sent: Wednesday, 22 February 2017 10:28 a.m.
To: Clyde Wildes (cwildes); netmod@ietf.org
Cc: Andy Bierman; Alex Campbell
Subject: Re: [netmod] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-netmod-syslog-model-11

Thanks for the update you Clyde!

Alex/Andy, since this update was made per comments you made during Last Cal=
l, can you please confirm that it does indeed address your concerns, and do=
esn't add any new ones?

Thanks,
Kent

On 2/14/17, 8:31 AM, "netmod on behalf of Clyde Wildes (cwildes)" <netmod-b=
ounces@ietf.org<mailto:netmod-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of cwildes@cisco.=
com<mailto:cwildes@cisco.com>> wrote:

Hi,

I just posted draft-ietf-netmod-syslog-model-12 which addresses the concern=
s that Alex and Andy raised in their review of draft 11.

Changes from draft 11 to draft 12 can be seen at this link:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3Ddraft-ietf-netmod-syslog-model-11&url2=
=3Ddraft-ietf-netmod-syslog-model-12&difftype=3D--hwdiff

Please review and comment.

Thanks,

Clyde

From: "Clyde Wildes (cwildes)" <cwildes@cisco.com>
Date: Wednesday, January 11, 2017 at 2:54 PM
To: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Cc: Alex Campbell <Alex.Campbell@aviatnet.com>, "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@i=
etf.org>
Subject: Re: [netmod] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-netmod-syslog-model-11

Any

My comments inline as [clyde2]=85

From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Date: Saturday, December 31, 2016 at 8:24 AM
To: "Clyde Wildes (cwildes)" <cwildes@cisco.com>
Cc: Alex Campbell <Alex.Campbell@aviatnet.com>, "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@i=
etf.org>
Subject: Re: [netmod] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-netmod-syslog-model-11



On Fri, Dec 30, 2016 at 10:16 AM, Clyde Wildes (cwildes) <cwildes@cisco.com=
<mailto:cwildes@cisco.com>> wrote:
Hi Andy,

Thanks for taking the time to review the model.

My comments are inline as [clyde]=85

From: netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:netmod-bounces@ietf.org>> on b=
ehalf of Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com<mailto:andy@yumaworks.com>>
Date: Tuesday, December 27, 2016 at 3:04 PM
To: Alex Campbell <Alex.Campbell@Aviatnet.com>
Cc: "netmod@ietf.org<mailto:netmod@ietf.org>" <netmod@ietf.org<mailto:netmo=
d@ietf.org>>
Subject: Re: [netmod] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-netmod-syslog-model-11

Hi,

I am also considering an implementation.
I share the same concerns that Alex has brought up.

Some detailed comments:

1) /syslog/actions: seems like everything is in this container.
 Why is it needed?  Seems like it could be removed as it serves no purpose

[clyde] Although this model is currently designated as config only, we coul=
d add operational data and rpc leaves in the future. The actions container =
is to future-proof the model.

2) 8 features: the granularity seems wrong.  The main container for each se=
ction
 should have its own if-feature
      /console
      /buffer
      /file
      /remote

[clyde] We have gone back and forth on this=85some have complained that the=
re are too many features. I will be happy to add a feature for each action.=
 Note that we studied the implementation of each action by six vendors incl=
uding Linux and opted to not add features for actions implemented by at lea=
st 3 vendors. Vendors not implementing an action could create a deviation.


I prefer 1 mandatory-to-implement and a minimal number of additional option=
s.

  /console
  /file
  /remote

These are all mandatory-to-implement..
IMO only /file should be mandatory-to-implement.

[clyde2] I will remove the buffer and session actions in the next draft and=
 will make the remaining three features.


3) What is the 'buffer' container for?
  How is the internal memory accessed by the client?

[clyde] buffer is implemented by vendors typically for routers capable of g=
enerating many syslog messages in event-storm bursts. Logging to memory (ak=
a buffer) allows the preservation of syslog messages which might otherwise =
be lost.



IMO it should be removed from the draft.
We certainly have changed the IETF NM focus.
In SNMP-land we routinely left the configuration out of scope
and standardized the monitoring.  Now we are standardizing
the configuration and leaving the monitoring out of scope?
I prefer complete standard solutions only.

There is no standard way to access the /console either.
Since the console provides "show log" I really do not see a need for
/buffer at all.

[clyde2] The buffer action will be removed.
A =93show log=94 command is used to access the buffers. As this model is cu=
rrent designed as a configuration only model, there is no operational leave=
s for show log, or rpc leaves for clear log.

4) selector-facility: Seems like no-facilities servers the same purpose
    as an empty facility-list. The choice is not needed; just use the facil=
ity-list

[clyde] This was changed as a result of Alex=92s feedback =96 please see my=
 response to him. The model will be changed to the following:


    container selector {

      description

        "This container describes the log selector parameters

         for syslog.";

      list facility-list {

        key facility;

        description

          "This list describes a collection of syslog

           facilities and severities.";

        leaf facility {

          type union {

            type identityref {

              base syslogtypes:syslog-facility;

            }

            type enumeration {

              enum all {

                description

                  "This enum describes the case where all

                   facilities are requested.";

              }

            }

          }

          description

            "The leaf uniquely identifies a syslog facility.";

        }

        uses log-severity;

      }

      leaf pattern-match {

        if-feature select-match;

        type string;

        description

          "This leaf desribes a Posix 1003.2 regular expression

           string that can be used to select a syslog message for

           logging. The match is performed on the RFC 5424

           SYSLOG-MSG field.";

      }


5) pattern-match:


      leaf pattern-match {

        if-feature select-match;

        type string;

        description

          "This leaf desribes a Posix 1003.2 regular expression

           string that can be used to select a syslog message for

           logging. The match is performed on the RFC 5424

           SYSLOG-MSG field.";

      }


The field SYSLOG-MSG is referenced but never defined or listed in
the terminology section.

[clyde] This will be fixed in the next draft.

6) how are the syslog-facility identities mapped to SYSLOG messages?
6a) how to distinguish acme:foo-facility from example:foo-facility in a SYS=
LOG message?

[clyde] I do not understand your question. The current implementation of fa=
cilities was designed with the help of several Yang Doctors. The requiremen=
t is to support the facilities as called out in RFC 5424 as well as vendor =
specific facilities that can be added through augmentation. Vendor specific=
 facilities are not meant to be used across multiple vendor implementations=
.



The filter is based on an identityref, which is a module-qualified name,
e.g., acme:foo-facility and example:foo-facility are different entities.
In the syslog message, only the string foo-facility will be present.
The draft claims to provide extensible facilities,(see A.1)  but it only
seems to work if the identities do not contain any duplicates.


[clyde2] In my experience looking at multiple vendor implementations I did =
not see any duplicates. If you have a suggestion on another way to extend f=
acilities, I am all ears.

7) source-interface: what if the server does not let a source interface be =
used and instead
    normal routing determines the source interface (this leaf is very route=
r-centric)

[clyde] source-interface is optional. If not specified normal routing flow =
would be used.

8) signing-options: are these widely deployed on all routers and Linux host=
s?

[clyde] Alex Clemm asked that we include syslog signing-options. This is im=
plemented by at least Linux rsyslog.

9) logrotate: there are several features related to log file cleanup allowi=
ng lots of
    server variability and forces the client to support all the options.  C=
an't this be simplified
   and all the micro-behavior YANG features removed?

[clyde] This was designed by merging the requirements from several vendors.=
 All of the variants specified are with if-feature so that the client does =
not have to support all options.


There seems to be some procedures implied by these YANG objects,
but it is not specified.

The 4 different methods (each with its own feature), are in a container.
Since container 'file-rotation' is in list 'log-file', the rotation variant
can be different for every file.  Is this really how implementations work?

[clyde2] We consolidated the requirements from multiple vendors.

Juniper log file archiving is available via a global setting or on an indiv=
idual file =96 both number of files and file size are supported. See https:=
//www.juniper.net/documentation/en_US/junos12.3/information-products/topic-=
collections/syslog-messages/index.html?jd0e921.html

Cisco log file archiving is specified for an individual file. File size and=
 optionally a hard code maximum number of bytes set aside for logging or a =
percent of total disk space available for logging may be specified.
http://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/td/docs/ios-xml/ios/esm/command/esm-cr-book/es=
m-cr-a1.html#wp8708534740

Alcatel-Lucent log file archiving is specified for an individual file and s=
upports rollover in minutes and retention in hours.
https://infoproducts.alcatel-lucent.com/html/0_add-h-f/93-0071-10-01/7750_S=
R_OS_System_Management_Guide/Logcli.html#1038301

The server is free to support from none to all of the archiving features (n=
ote: they are specified as features).


Also, the different parameters in this container can interact if the server
supports more than 1 feature.  The draft does not say anything about
combining them.

E.g.:


           leaf number-of-files {

              if-feature file-limit-size;

              type uint32;

              description

                "This leaf specifies the maximum number of log

                 files retained. Specify 1 for implementations

                 that only support one log file.";

            }


How does the client know if the server only supports 1 file or not?
This should really be revisions, since these files are per log-file list en=
try.

[clyde2] Make the default 1?

If only 1 revision of the log-file is retained, then the meaning of the oth=
er
leafs is unclear. If there is only 1 log-file revision, then what happens
if the max-file-size # of megabytes, rollover # of minutes, or retention # =
of hours
is reached?  Does syslog monitoring stop for the log-file entry?

[clyde2] If one log-file is specified and max-file-size is specified, the s=
ingle file is overwritten when max-file-size limit is encountered.

How does the client access different revisions of the log file? Or even lis=
t them?
How does the client know the current size of lifetime of the log-file
They do not have names. Is it assumed they will be the log-file/name field
appended with ".1", ".2", etc.?

[clyde2] There is no attempt to support oper data in this model.


Thanks,

Clyde
10) numeric limits: there is some odd usage of YANG types; some limits are =
uint64, some uint32,
some uint16.  Seems like uint32 is sufficient

[clyde]  The signing-options counts are as per the syslog-sign spec (RFC 58=
48) which is uint16. I will make all others uint32 except for the buffer si=
ze limit which I will leave at unit64.

Result:
<seven signing-options counters> uint16
buffer-limit-bytes uint64
buffer-limit-messages uint32 (was formally uint64)
number-of-files uint32
max-file-size uint32 (was formally uint64)
rollover unit32
retention unit32 (was formally uint16)


Thanks,

Clyde





Andy


Andy


On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 8:16 PM, Alex Campbell <Alex.Campbell@aviatnet.com<=
mailto:Alex.Campbell@aviatnet.com>> wrote:
I am considering to implement the data model in this draft.

I have reviewed this draft and found the following issues. In approximately=
 decreasing order of severity:

* In the "selector-facility" choice statement the cases have misleading nam=
es - the case where no facility is matched is named "facility", and the cas=
e where specific facilities are matched is named "name". I suggest "no-faci=
lities" and "specified-facilities", or similar.

* I disagree with the premise of the "no-facilities" case, which is that it=
 can be used to disable a log action, according to the description:

     description
            "This case specifies no facilities will match when
             comparing the syslog message facility. This is a
             method that can be used to effectively disable a
             particular log-action (buffer, file, etc).";

  If an administrator wants to disable a log action they should do it by ei=
ther removing it from the configuration, or by setting an "enabled" leaf to=
 false.
  With that in mind, there is no reason for the "no-facilities" case to exi=
st.

* What is the behaviour of a selector if neither "no-facilities" nor "facil=
ity-list" is present?
* In the "selector" grouping it is not clear how the facility and pattern c=
onditions are combined to decide whether a message is selected.
  Must they both match the message, or is it sufficient for either one to m=
atch the message?
* Not all servers have a console; there should be a feature to indicate whe=
ther logging to the console is supported.
* Likewise, not all servers may support logging to user sessions.
* Likewise, not all servers may support a user-accessible filesystem.
* RFC 5424 states that the severity and protocol values are not normative.
* It's not clear to me why this needs to be split into two modules. Is it s=
o that other modules can define logging parameters but still be usable on a=
 device without syslog?
* "log-severity" defines a severity filter, not a severity, so its name is =
misleading.
* Perhaps the "severity" type and the facility identities should have "refe=
rence" statements referring to RFC 5424, rather than referring to it in the=
 description.
* In section "8.2", "admisintrator" is a typo.

I assume that the means of accessing the memory buffer and log files are ou=
t of scope of this data model.

Alex

________________________________________
From: netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:netmod-bounces@ietf.org>> on b=
ehalf of Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net<mailto:kwatsen@juniper.net>>
Sent: Wednesday, 14 December 2016 2:01 p.m.
To: netmod@ietf.org<mailto:netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: [netmod] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-netmod-syslog-model-11

This is a notice to start a two-week NETMOD WG last call for the document:

    A YANG Data Model for Syslog Configuration
    https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netmod-syslog-model-11

Please indicate your support or concerns by Tuesday, December 27, 2016.

We are particularly interested in statements of the form:
  * I have reviewed this draft and found no issues.
  * I have reviewed this draft and found the following issues: ...

As well as:
  * I have implemented the data model in this draft.
  * I am implementing the data model in this draft.
  * I am considering to implement the data model in this draft.
  * I am not considering to implement the data model in this draft.

Thank you,
NETMOD WG Chairs



_______________________________________________
netmod mailing list
netmod@ietf.org<mailto:netmod@ietf.org>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod

_______________________________________________
netmod mailing list
netmod@ietf.org<mailto:netmod@ietf.org>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod



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</head>
<body dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:#000000;background-color:#F=
FFFFF;font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;">
<p>I can confirm that this new draft addresses my concerns and doesn't add =
any new ones.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(33, 33, 33);">
<hr tabindex=3D"-1" style=3D"display:inline-block; width:98%">
<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font style=3D"font-size:11pt" color=
=3D"#000000" face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif"><b>From:</b> Kent Watsen &lt;kwat=
sen@juniper.net&gt;<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, 22 February 2017 10:28 a.m.<br>
<b>To:</b> Clyde Wildes (cwildes); netmod@ietf.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Andy Bierman; Alex Campbell<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [netmod] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-netmod-syslog-mode=
l-11</font>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri">Thanks for the u=
pdate you Clyde!</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri">&nbsp;</span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri">Alex/Andy, since=
 this update was made per comments you made during Last Call, can you pleas=
e confirm that it does indeed address your concerns, and doesn't add any ne=
w ones?</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri">&nbsp;</span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri">Thanks,</span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri">Kent</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri">&nbsp;</span></p=
>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/14/17, 8:31 AM, &quot;netmod on behalf of Clyde=
 Wildes (cwildes)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:netmod-bounces@ietf.org">netm=
od-bounces@ietf.org</a> on behalf of
<a href=3D"mailto:cwildes@cisco.com">cwildes@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
ourier New&quot;">Hi,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
ourier New&quot;">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
ourier New&quot;">I just posted draft-ietf-netmod-syslog-model-12 which add=
resses the concerns that Alex and Andy raised in their review of draft 11.
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
ourier New&quot;">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
ourier New&quot;">Changes from draft 11 to draft 12 can be seen at this lin=
k:</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
ourier New&quot;">https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3Ddraft-ietf-netmod-sys=
log-model-11&amp;url2=3Ddraft-ietf-netmod-syslog-model-12&amp;difftype=3D--=
hwdiff</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
ourier New&quot;">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
ourier New&quot;">Please review and comment.
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
ourier New&quot;">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
ourier New&quot;">Thanks,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
ourier New&quot;">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
ourier New&quot;">Clyde</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
ourier New&quot;">&nbsp;</span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0i=
n 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri; color:black">=
From: </span>
</b><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri; color:black">&quot;Clyde Wildes (cw=
ildes)&quot; &lt;cwildes@cisco.com&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, January 11, 2017 at 2:54 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>Andy Bierman &lt;andy@yumaworks.com&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>Alex Campbell &lt;Alex.Campbell@aviatnet.com&gt;, &quot;netmod@i=
etf.org&quot; &lt;netmod@ietf.org&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [netmod] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-netmod-syslog-mode=
l-11</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
ourier New&quot;">Any</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
ourier New&quot;">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
ourier New&quot;">My comments inline as [clyde2]=85</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:&quot;C=
ourier New&quot;">&nbsp;</span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0i=
n 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri; color:black">=
From: </span>
</b><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri; color:black">Andy Bierman &lt;andy@=
yumaworks.com&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Saturday, December 31, 2016 at 8:24 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;Clyde Wildes (cwildes)&quot; &lt;cwildes@cisco.com&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>Alex Campbell &lt;Alex.Campbell@aviatnet.com&gt;, &quot;netmod@i=
etf.org&quot; &lt;netmod@ietf.org&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [netmod] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-netmod-syslog-mode=
l-11</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Fri, Dec 30, 2016 at 10:16 AM, Clyde Wildes (cwil=
des) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cwildes@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">cwildes@cis=
co.com</a>&gt; wrote:</p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none; border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt; padding:=
0in 0in 0in 6.0pt; margin-left:4.8pt; margin-top:5.0pt; margin-right:0in; m=
argin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fam=
ily:&quot;Courier New&quot;">Hi Andy,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fam=
ily:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fam=
ily:&quot;Courier New&quot;">Thanks for taking the time to review the model=
.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fam=
ily:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fam=
ily:&quot;Courier New&quot;">My comments are inline as [clyde]=85</span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-fam=
ily:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&nbsp;</span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0i=
n 0in 0in; border-right-width:initial; border-bottom-width:initial; border-=
left-width:initial; border-right-color:initial; border-bottom-color:initial=
; border-left-color:initial">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D""><b><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri; co=
lor:black">From:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri; color:black">netmod &lt;</sp=
an><a href=3D"mailto:netmod-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span style=
=3D"font-family:Calibri">netmod-bounces@ietf.org</span></a><span style=3D"f=
ont-family:Calibri; color:black">&gt; on behalf
 of Andy Bierman &lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:andy@yumaworks.com" target=3D=
"_blank"><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri">andy@yumaworks.com</span></a><=
span style=3D"font-family:Calibri; color:black">&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Tuesday, December 27, 2016 at 3:04 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>Alex Campbell &lt;Alex.Campbell@Aviatnet.com&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>&quot;</span><a href=3D"mailto:netmod@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
"><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri">netmod@ietf.org</span></a><span style=
=3D"font-family:Calibri; color:black">&quot; &lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:n=
etmod@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri">netmo=
d@ietf.org</span></a><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri; color:black">&gt;<=
br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [netmod] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-netmod-syslog-mode=
l-11</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">Hi, </p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">I am also considering an implementation.<=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">I share the same concerns that Alex has b=
rought up.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">Some detailed comments:</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">1) /syslog/actions: seems like everything=
 is in this container.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;Why is it needed?&nbsp; Seems like =
it could be removed as it serves no purpose</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">[clyde] Although this model is currently =
designated as config only, we could add operational data and rpc leaves in =
the future. The actions container is to future-proof the model.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">2) 8 features: the granularity seems wron=
g.&nbsp; The main container for each section</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;should have its own if-feature</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; /console</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; /buffer</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; /file</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; /remote</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">[clyde] We have gone back and forth on th=
is=85some have complained that there are too many features. I will be happy=
 to add a feature for each action. Note that we studied the implementation =
of each action by six vendors including
 Linux and opted to not add features for actions implemented by at least 3 =
vendors. Vendors not implementing an action could create a deviation.</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I prefer 1 mandatory-to-implement and a minimal numb=
er of additional options.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; /console</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; /file</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; /remote</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">These are all mandatory-to-implement..</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">IMO only /file should be mandatory-to-implement.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">[clyde2] I will remove the buffer and session action=
s in the next draft and will make the remaining three features.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none; border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt; padding:=
0in 0in 0in 6.0pt; margin-left:4.8pt; margin-top:5.0pt; margin-right:0in; m=
argin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">3) What is the 'buffer' container for?</p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp; How is the internal memory accesse=
d by the client?</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">[clyde] buffer is implemented by vendors =
typically for routers capable of generating many syslog messages in event-s=
torm bursts. Logging to memory (aka buffer) allows the preservation of sysl=
og messages which might otherwise be
 lost.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">IMO it should be removed from the draft.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We certainly have changed the IETF NM focus.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In SNMP-land we routinely left the configuration out=
 of scope</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">and standardized the monitoring.&nbsp; Now we are st=
andardizing</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">the configuration and leaving the monitoring out of =
scope?</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I prefer complete standard solutions only.&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">There is no standard way to access the /console eith=
er.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Since the console provides &quot;show log&quot; I re=
ally do not see a need for</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">/buffer at all.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">[clyde2] The buffer action will be removed.</p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none; border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt; padding:=
0in 0in 0in 6.0pt; margin-left:4.8pt; margin-top:5.0pt; margin-right:0in; m=
argin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">A =93show log=94 command is used to acces=
s the buffers. As this model is current designed as a configuration only mo=
del, there is no operational leaves for show log, or rpc leaves for clear l=
og.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">4) selector-facility: Seems like no-facil=
ities servers the same purpose</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; as an empty facility-list. =
The choice is not needed; just use the facility-list</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">[clyde] This was changed as a result of A=
lex=92s feedback =96 please see my response to him. The model will be chang=
ed to the following:</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m-4216345176271160494p1"><span class=3D"gmail-m-421634517=
6271160494apple-converted-space">&nbsp; &nbsp;
</span><span class=3D"gmail-m-4216345176271160494s1">container</span> selec=
tor {</p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m-4216345176271160494p2"><span class=3D"gmail-m-421634517=
6271160494apple-converted-space"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;
</span></span>description</p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m-4216345176271160494p3"><span class=3D"gmail-m-421634517=
6271160494apple-converted-space"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;
</span></span><span class=3D"gmail-m-4216345176271160494s2">&quot;</span>Th=
is container describes the log selector parameters<span class=3D"gmail-m-42=
16345176271160494apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m-4216345176271160494p3"><span class=3D"gmail-m-421634517=
6271160494apple-converted-space">&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
</span>for syslog.<span class=3D"gmail-m-4216345176271160494s2">&quot;;</sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m-4216345176271160494p1"><span class=3D"gmail-m-421634517=
6271160494apple-converted-space">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
</span><span class=3D"gmail-m-4216345176271160494s1">list</span> facility-l=
ist {</p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m-4216345176271160494p1"><span class=3D"gmail-m-421634517=
6271160494apple-converted-space">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
</span><span class=3D"gmail-m-4216345176271160494s1">key</span> facility;</=
p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m-4216345176271160494p2"><span class=3D"gmail-m-421634517=
6271160494apple-converted-space"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;
</span></span>description</p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m-4216345176271160494p3"><span class=3D"gmail-m-421634517=
6271160494apple-converted-space"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
</span></span><span class=3D"gmail-m-4216345176271160494s2">&quot;</span>Th=
is list describes a collection of syslog<span class=3D"gmail-m-421634517627=
1160494apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m-4216345176271160494p3"><span class=3D"gmail-m-421634517=
6271160494apple-converted-space">&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
</span>facilities and severities.<span class=3D"gmail-m-4216345176271160494=
s2">&quot;;</span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m-4216345176271160494p1"><span class=3D"gmail-m-421634517=
6271160494apple-converted-space">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
</span><span class=3D"gmail-m-4216345176271160494s1">leaf</span> facility {=
</p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m-4216345176271160494p1"><span class=3D"gmail-m-421634517=
6271160494apple-converted-space">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
</span><span class=3D"gmail-m-4216345176271160494s1">type</span> <span clas=
s=3D"gmail-m-4216345176271160494s1">
union</span> {</p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m-4216345176271160494p1"><span class=3D"gmail-m-421634517=
6271160494apple-converted-space">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
</span><span class=3D"gmail-m-4216345176271160494s1">type</span> <span clas=
s=3D"gmail-m-4216345176271160494s1">
identityref</span> {</p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m-4216345176271160494p1"><span class=3D"gmail-m-421634517=
6271160494apple-converted-space">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;
</span><span class=3D"gmail-m-4216345176271160494s1">base</span> syslogtype=
s:syslog-facility;</p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m-4216345176271160494p1"><span class=3D"gmail-m-421634517=
6271160494apple-converted-space">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
</span>}</p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m-4216345176271160494p1"><span class=3D"gmail-m-421634517=
6271160494apple-converted-space">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
</span><span class=3D"gmail-m-4216345176271160494s1">type</span> <span clas=
s=3D"gmail-m-4216345176271160494s1">
enumeration</span> {</p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m-4216345176271160494p1"><span class=3D"gmail-m-421634517=
6271160494apple-converted-space">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;
</span><span class=3D"gmail-m-4216345176271160494s1">enum</span> all {</p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m-4216345176271160494p1"><span class=3D"gmail-m-421634517=
6271160494apple-converted-space">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;
</span><span class=3D"gmail-m-4216345176271160494s1">description</span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m-4216345176271160494p3"><span class=3D"gmail-m-421634517=
6271160494apple-converted-space"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
</span></span><span class=3D"gmail-m-4216345176271160494s2">&quot;</span>Th=
is enum describes the case where all<span class=3D"gmail-m-4216345176271160=
494apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m-4216345176271160494p3"><span class=3D"gmail-m-421634517=
6271160494apple-converted-space">&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
</span>facilities are requested.<span class=3D"gmail-m-4216345176271160494s=
2">&quot;;</span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m-4216345176271160494p1"><span class=3D"gmail-m-421634517=
6271160494apple-converted-space">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;
</span>}</p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m-4216345176271160494p1"><span class=3D"gmail-m-421634517=
6271160494apple-converted-space">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
</span>}</p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m-4216345176271160494p1"><span class=3D"gmail-m-421634517=
6271160494apple-converted-space">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
</span>}</p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m-4216345176271160494p2"><span class=3D"gmail-m-421634517=
6271160494apple-converted-space"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
</span></span>description</p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m-4216345176271160494p3"><span class=3D"gmail-m-421634517=
6271160494apple-converted-space"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
</span></span><span class=3D"gmail-m-4216345176271160494s2">&quot;</span>Th=
e leaf uniquely identifies a syslog facility.<span class=3D"gmail-m-4216345=
176271160494s2">&quot;;</span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m-4216345176271160494p1"><span class=3D"gmail-m-421634517=
6271160494apple-converted-space">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
</span>}</p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m-4216345176271160494p1"><span class=3D"gmail-m-421634517=
6271160494apple-converted-space">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
</span><span class=3D"gmail-m-4216345176271160494s1">uses</span> log-severi=
ty;</p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m-4216345176271160494p1"><span class=3D"gmail-m-421634517=
6271160494apple-converted-space">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
</span>}</p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m-4216345176271160494p1"><span class=3D"gmail-m-421634517=
6271160494apple-converted-space">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
</span><span class=3D"gmail-m-4216345176271160494s1">leaf</span> pattern-ma=
tch {</p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m-4216345176271160494p1"><span class=3D"gmail-m-421634517=
6271160494apple-converted-space">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
</span><span class=3D"gmail-m-4216345176271160494s1">if-feature</span> sele=
ct-match;</p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m-4216345176271160494p1"><span class=3D"gmail-m-421634517=
6271160494apple-converted-space">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
</span><span class=3D"gmail-m-4216345176271160494s1">type</span> string;</p=
>
<p class=3D"gmail-m-4216345176271160494p2"><span class=3D"gmail-m-421634517=
6271160494apple-converted-space"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;
</span></span>description</p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m-4216345176271160494p3"><span class=3D"gmail-m-421634517=
6271160494apple-converted-space"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
</span></span><span class=3D"gmail-m-4216345176271160494s2">&quot;</span>Th=
is leaf desribes a Posix 1003.2 regular expression<span class=3D"gmail-m-42=
16345176271160494apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m-4216345176271160494p3"><span class=3D"gmail-m-421634517=
6271160494apple-converted-space">&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
</span>string that can be used to select a syslog message for<span class=3D=
"gmail-m-4216345176271160494apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m-4216345176271160494p3"><span class=3D"gmail-m-421634517=
6271160494apple-converted-space">&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
</span>logging. The match is performed on the RFC 5424<span class=3D"gmail-=
m-4216345176271160494apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m-4216345176271160494p3"><span class=3D"gmail-m-421634517=
6271160494apple-converted-space">&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
</span>SYSLOG-MSG field.<span class=3D"gmail-m-4216345176271160494s2">&quot=
;;</span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m-4216345176271160494p1"><span class=3D"gmail-m-421634517=
6271160494apple-converted-space">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
</span>}</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">5) pattern-match:&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<pre style=3D"word-wrap:break-word; white-space:pre-wrap"><span style=3D"co=
lor:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; leaf pattern-match {</span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 if-feature select-match;</span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 type string;</span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 description</span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp; &quot;This leaf desribes a Posix 1003.2 regular expression</sp=
an></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; string that can be used to select a syslog message for</=
span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; logging. The match is performed on the RFC 5424</span></=
pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; SYSLOG-MSG field.&quot;;</span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; }</span></p=
re>
<pre style=3D"word-wrap:break-word; white-space:pre-wrap"><span style=3D"co=
lor:black">&nbsp;</span></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">The field SYSLOG-MSG is referenced but ne=
ver defined or listed in<br>
the terminology section.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">[clyde] This will be fixed in the next dr=
aft.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">6) how are the syslog-facility identities=
 mapped to SYSLOG messages?</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">6a) how to distinguish acme:foo-facility =
from example:foo-facility in a SYSLOG message?</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">[clyde] I do not understand your question=
. The current implementation of facilities was designed with the help of se=
veral Yang Doctors. The requirement is to support the facilities as called =
out in RFC 5424 as well as vendor specific
 facilities that can be added through augmentation. Vendor specific facilit=
ies are not meant to be used across multiple vendor implementations.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The filter is based on an identityref, which is a mo=
dule-qualified name,</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">e.g., acme:foo-facility and example:foo-facility are=
 different entities.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In the syslog message, only the string foo-facility =
will be present.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The draft claims to provide extensible facilities,(s=
ee A.1) &nbsp;but it only</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">seems to work if the identities do not contain any d=
uplicates.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">[clyde2] In my experience looking at multiple vendor=
 implementations I did not see any duplicates. If you have a suggestion on =
another way to extend facilities, I am all ears.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none; border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt; padding:=
0in 0in 0in 6.0pt; margin-left:4.8pt; margin-top:5.0pt; margin-right:0in; m=
argin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">7) source-interface: what if the server d=
oes not let a source interface be used and instead</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; normal routing determines t=
he source interface (this leaf is very router-centric)</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">[clyde] source-interface is optional. If =
not specified normal routing flow would be used.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">8) signing-options: are these widely depl=
oyed on all routers and Linux hosts?</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">[clyde] Alex Clemm asked that we include =
syslog signing-options. This is implemented by at least Linux rsyslog.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">9) logrotate: there are several features =
related to log file cleanup allowing lots of</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; server variability and forc=
es the client to support all the options.&nbsp; Can't this be simplified</p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;and all the micro-behavior Y=
ANG features removed?</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">[clyde] This was designed by merging the =
requirements from several vendors. All of the variants specified are with i=
f-feature so that the client does not have to support all options.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">There seems to be some procedures implied by these Y=
ANG objects,</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">but it is not specified.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The 4 different methods (each with its own feature),=
 are in a container.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Since container 'file-rotation' is in list 'log-file=
', the rotation variant</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">can be different for every file.&nbsp; Is this reall=
y how implementations work?</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">[clyde2] We consolidated the requirements from multi=
ple vendors.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Juniper log file archiving is available via a global=
 setting or on an individual file =96 both number of files and file size ar=
e supported. See
<a href=3D"https://www.juniper.net/documentation/en_US/junos12.3/informatio=
n-products/topic-collections/syslog-messages/index.html?jd0e921.html">
https://www.juniper.net/documentation/en_US/junos12.3/information-products/=
topic-collections/syslog-messages/index.html?jd0e921.html</a></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Cisco log file archiving is specified for an individ=
ual file. File size and optionally a hard code maximum number of bytes set =
aside for logging or a percent of total disk space available for logging ma=
y be specified.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"http://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/td/docs/ios-=
xml/ios/esm/command/esm-cr-book/esm-cr-a1.html#wp8708534740">http://www.cis=
co.com/c/en/us/td/docs/ios-xml/ios/esm/command/esm-cr-book/esm-cr-a1.html#w=
p8708534740</a></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Alcatel-Lucent log file archiving is specified for a=
n individual file and supports rollover in minutes and retention in hours.<=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://infoproducts.alcatel-lucent.com/h=
tml/0_add-h-f/93-0071-10-01/7750_SR_OS_System_Management_Guide/Logcli.html#=
1038301">https://infoproducts.alcatel-lucent.com/html/0_add-h-f/93-0071-10-=
01/7750_SR_OS_System_Management_Guide/Logcli.html#1038301</a></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The server is free to support from none to all of th=
e archiving features (note: they are specified as features).</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Also, the different parameters in this container can=
 interact if the server</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">supports more than 1 feature.&nbsp; The draft does n=
ot say anything about</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">combining them.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">E.g.:</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; leaf number-of-files =
{</span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; if-=
feature file-limit-size;</span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; typ=
e uint32;</span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; des=
cription</span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp; &quot;This leaf specifies the maximum number of log</span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp; files retained. Specify 1 for implementations</span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp; that only support one log file.&quot;;</span></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; }</span></pre>
<span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;; c=
olor:black"><br style=3D"page-break-before:always" clear=3D"all">
<br style=3D"page-break-before:always" clear=3D"all">
</span>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">How does the client know if the server only supports=
 1 file or not?</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This should really be revisions, since these files a=
re&nbsp;per log-file list entry.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">[clyde2] Make the default 1?</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">If only 1 revision of the log-file is retained, then=
 the meaning of the other</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">leafs is unclear. If there is only 1 log-file revisi=
on, then what happens</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">if the max-file-size # of megabytes, rollover # of m=
inutes, or retention # of hours</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">is reached?&nbsp; Does syslog monitoring stop for th=
e log-file entry?</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">[clyde2] If one log-file is specified and max-file-s=
ize is specified, the single file is overwritten when max-file-size limit i=
s encountered.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">How does the client access different revisions of th=
e log file? Or even list them?</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">How does the client know the current size of lifetim=
e of the log-file</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">They do not have names. Is it assumed they will be t=
he log-file/name field</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">appended with &quot;.1&quot;, &quot;.2&quot;, etc.?<=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">[clyde2] There is no attempt to support oper data in=
 this model.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks,</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Clyde</p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none; border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt; padding:=
0in 0in 0in 6.0pt; margin-left:4.8pt; margin-top:5.0pt; margin-right:0in; m=
argin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">10) numeric limits: there is some odd usa=
ge of YANG types; some limits are uint64, some uint32,</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">some uint16.&nbsp; Seems like uint32 is s=
ufficient</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">[clyde]&nbsp; The signing-options counts =
are as per the syslog-sign spec (RFC 5848) which is uint16. I will make all=
 others uint32 except for the buffer size limit which I will leave at unit6=
4.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">Result:</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&lt;seven signing-options counters&gt; ui=
nt16</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">buffer-limit-bytes uint64</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">buffer-limit-messages uint32 (was formall=
y uint64)</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">number-of-files uint32</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">max-file-size uint32 (was formally uint64=
)</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">rollover unit32</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">retention unit32 (was formally uint16)</p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">Thanks,</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">Clyde</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Andy</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none; border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt; padding:=
0in 0in 0in 6.0pt; margin-left:4.8pt; margin-top:5.0pt; margin-right:0in; m=
argin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">Andy</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 8:16 PM, Alex Cam=
pbell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alex.Campbell@aviatnet.com" target=3D"_blank">A=
lex.Campbell@aviatnet.com</a>&gt; wrote:</p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none; border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt; padding:=
0in 0in 0in 6.0pt; margin-left:4.8pt; margin-top:5.0pt; margin-right:0in; m=
argin-bottom:5.0pt; border-top-width:initial; border-right-width:initial; b=
order-bottom-width:initial; border-top-color:initial; border-right-color:in=
itial; border-bottom-color:initial">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">I am considering to implement the data mo=
del in this draft.<br>
<br>
I have reviewed this draft and found the following issues. In approximately=
 decreasing order of severity:<br>
<br>
* In the &quot;selector-facility&quot; choice statement the cases have misl=
eading names - the case where no facility is matched is named &quot;facilit=
y&quot;, and the case where specific facilities are matched is named &quot;=
name&quot;. I suggest &quot;no-facilities&quot; and &quot;specified-facilit=
ies&quot;,
 or similar.<br>
<br>
* I disagree with the premise of the &quot;no-facilities&quot; case, which =
is that it can be used to disable a log action, according to the descriptio=
n:<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;description<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &quot;This case specifies no faci=
lities will match when<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;comparing the syslog messag=
e facility. This is a<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;method that can be used to =
effectively disable a<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;particular log-action (buff=
er, file, etc).&quot;;<br>
<br>
&nbsp; If an administrator wants to disable a log action they should do it =
by either removing it from the configuration, or by setting an &quot;enable=
d&quot; leaf to false.<br>
&nbsp; With that in mind, there is no reason for the &quot;no-facilities&qu=
ot; case to exist.<br>
<br>
* What is the behaviour of a selector if neither &quot;no-facilities&quot; =
nor &quot;facility-list&quot; is present?<br>
* In the &quot;selector&quot; grouping it is not clear how the facility and=
 pattern conditions are combined to decide whether a message is selected.<b=
r>
&nbsp; Must they both match the message, or is it sufficient for either one=
 to match the message?<br>
* Not all servers have a console; there should be a feature to indicate whe=
ther logging to the console is supported.<br>
* Likewise, not all servers may support logging to user sessions.<br>
* Likewise, not all servers may support a user-accessible filesystem.<br>
* RFC 5424 states that the severity and protocol values are not normative.<=
br>
* It's not clear to me why this needs to be split into two modules. Is it s=
o that other modules can define logging parameters but still be usable on a=
 device without syslog?<br>
* &quot;log-severity&quot; defines a severity filter, not a severity, so it=
s name is misleading.<br>
* Perhaps the &quot;severity&quot; type and the facility identities should =
have &quot;reference&quot; statements referring to RFC 5424, rather than re=
ferring to it in the description.<br>
* In section &quot;8.2&quot;, &quot;admisintrator&quot; is a typo.<br>
<br>
I assume that the means of accessing the memory buffer and log files are ou=
t of scope of this data model.<br>
<br>
Alex<br>
<br>
________________________________________<br>
From: netmod &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:netmod-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blan=
k">netmod-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Kent Watsen &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:kwatsen@juniper.net" target=3D"_blank">kwatsen@juniper.net</a>&gt;<b=
r>
Sent: Wednesday, 14 December 2016 2:01 p.m.<br>
To: <a href=3D"mailto:netmod@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">netmod@ietf.org</a=
><br>
Subject: [netmod] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-netmod-syslog-model-11<br>
<br>
This is a notice to start a two-week NETMOD WG last call for the document:<=
br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; A YANG Data Model for Syslog Configuration<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netmod-sysl=
og-model-11" target=3D"_blank">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netmod-syslog-model-11</a><br>
<br>
Please indicate your support or concerns by Tuesday, December 27, 2016.<br>
<br>
We are particularly interested in statements of the form:<br>
&nbsp; * I have reviewed this draft and found no issues.<br>
&nbsp; * I have reviewed this draft and found the following issues: ...<br>
<br>
As well as:<br>
&nbsp; * I have implemented the data model in this draft.<br>
&nbsp; * I am implementing the data model in this draft.<br>
&nbsp; * I am considering to implement the data model in this draft.<br>
&nbsp; * I am not considering to implement the data model in this draft.<br=
>
<br>
Thank you,<br>
NETMOD WG Chairs<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
netmod mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:netmod@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">netmod@ietf.org</a><br=
>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod" target=3D"_blank">=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod</a><br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
netmod mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:netmod@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">netmod@ietf.org</a><br=
>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod" target=3D"_blank">=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod</a></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
</div>
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From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2017 15:10:11 -0800
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Subject: Re: [netmod] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-netmod-syslog-model-11
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Hi,

Lots of improvement.
Just some minor details I noticed...

SYSLOG-MSG field:  RFC 5424 is mentioned in the 2nd usage, not the first.
Should be a citation --  SYSLOG-MSG field [RFC5424]


Page header says 'Abbreviated Title' (the template placeholder text).
I suggest 'Syslog Management' (consistent with RFC 8022)


p5:

The severity is one of syslogtypes:severity

perhaps:

The severity is one of: type "syslogtypes:severity"


Actions are to log

perhaps:

Actions are used to log




Andy


On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 1:28 PM, Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net> wrote:

> Thanks for the update you Clyde!
>
>
>
> Alex/Andy, since this update was made per comments you made during Last
> Call, can you please confirm that it does indeed address your concerns, a=
nd
> doesn't add any new ones?
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Kent
>
>
>
> On 2/14/17, 8:31 AM, "netmod on behalf of Clyde Wildes (cwildes)" <
> netmod-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of cwildes@cisco.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> I just posted draft-ietf-netmod-syslog-model-12 which addresses the
> concerns that Alex and Andy raised in their review of draft 11.
>
>
>
> Changes from draft 11 to draft 12 can be seen at this link:
>
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3Ddraft-ietf-netmod-syslog-
> model-11&url2=3Ddraft-ietf-netmod-syslog-model-12&difftype=3D--hwdiff
>
>
>
> Please review and comment.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> Clyde
>
>
>
> *From: *"Clyde Wildes (cwildes)" <cwildes@cisco.com>
> *Date: *Wednesday, January 11, 2017 at 2:54 PM
> *To: *Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
> *Cc: *Alex Campbell <Alex.Campbell@aviatnet.com>, "netmod@ietf.org" <
> netmod@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [netmod] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-netmod-syslog-model-1=
1
>
>
>
> Any
>
>
>
> My comments inline as [clyde2]=E2=80=A6
>
>
>
> *From: *Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
> *Date: *Saturday, December 31, 2016 at 8:24 AM
> *To: *"Clyde Wildes (cwildes)" <cwildes@cisco.com>
> *Cc: *Alex Campbell <Alex.Campbell@aviatnet.com>, "netmod@ietf.org" <
> netmod@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [netmod] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-netmod-syslog-model-1=
1
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 30, 2016 at 10:16 AM, Clyde Wildes (cwildes) <
> cwildes@cisco.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Andy,
>
>
>
> Thanks for taking the time to review the model.
>
>
>
> My comments are inline as [clyde]=E2=80=A6
>
>
>
> *From: *netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Andy Bierman <
> andy@yumaworks.com>
> *Date: *Tuesday, December 27, 2016 at 3:04 PM
> *To: *Alex Campbell <Alex.Campbell@Aviatnet.com>
> *Cc: *"netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [netmod] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-netmod-syslog-model-1=
1
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> I am also considering an implementation.
>
> I share the same concerns that Alex has brought up.
>
>
>
> Some detailed comments:
>
>
>
> 1) /syslog/actions: seems like everything is in this container.
>
>  Why is it needed?  Seems like it could be removed as it serves no purpos=
e
>
>
>
> [clyde] Although this model is currently designated as config only, we
> could add operational data and rpc leaves in the future. The actions
> container is to future-proof the model.
>
>
>
> 2) 8 features: the granularity seems wrong.  The main container for each
> section
>
>  should have its own if-feature
>
>       /console
>
>       /buffer
>
>       /file
>
>       /remote
>
>
>
> [clyde] We have gone back and forth on this=E2=80=A6some have complained =
that
> there are too many features. I will be happy to add a feature for each
> action. Note that we studied the implementation of each action by six
> vendors including Linux and opted to not add features for actions
> implemented by at least 3 vendors. Vendors not implementing an action cou=
ld
> create a deviation.
>
>
>
>
>
> I prefer 1 mandatory-to-implement and a minimal number of additional
> options.
>
>
>
>   /console
>
>   /file
>
>   /remote
>
>
>
> These are all mandatory-to-implement..
>
> IMO only /file should be mandatory-to-implement.
>
>
>
> [clyde2] I will remove the buffer and session actions in the next draft
> and will make the remaining three features.
>
>
>
>
>
> 3) What is the 'buffer' container for?
>
>   How is the internal memory accessed by the client?
>
>
>
> [clyde] buffer is implemented by vendors typically for routers capable of
> generating many syslog messages in event-storm bursts. Logging to memory
> (aka buffer) allows the preservation of syslog messages which might
> otherwise be lost.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> IMO it should be removed from the draft.
>
> We certainly have changed the IETF NM focus.
>
> In SNMP-land we routinely left the configuration out of scope
>
> and standardized the monitoring.  Now we are standardizing
>
> the configuration and leaving the monitoring out of scope?
>
> I prefer complete standard solutions only.
>
>
>
> There is no standard way to access the /console either.
>
> Since the console provides "show log" I really do not see a need for
>
> /buffer at all.
>
>
>
> [clyde2] The buffer action will be removed.
>
> A =E2=80=9Cshow log=E2=80=9D command is used to access the buffers. As th=
is model is
> current designed as a configuration only model, there is no operational
> leaves for show log, or rpc leaves for clear log.
>
>
>
> 4) selector-facility: Seems like no-facilities servers the same purpose
>
>     as an empty facility-list. The choice is not needed; just use the
> facility-list
>
>
>
> [clyde] This was changed as a result of Alex=E2=80=99s feedback =E2=80=93=
 please see my
> response to him. The model will be changed to the following:
>
>
>
>     container selector {
>
>       description
>
>         "This container describes the log selector parameters
>
>          for syslog.";
>
>       list facility-list {
>
>         key facility;
>
>         description
>
>           "This list describes a collection of syslog
>
>            facilities and severities.";
>
>         leaf facility {
>
>           type union {
>
>             type identityref {
>
>               base syslogtypes:syslog-facility;
>
>             }
>
>             type enumeration {
>
>               enum all {
>
>                 description
>
>                   "This enum describes the case where all
>
>                    facilities are requested.";
>
>               }
>
>             }
>
>           }
>
>           description
>
>             "The leaf uniquely identifies a syslog facility.";
>
>         }
>
>         uses log-severity;
>
>       }
>
>       leaf pattern-match {
>
>         if-feature select-match;
>
>         type string;
>
>         description
>
>           "This leaf desribes a Posix 1003.2 regular expression
>
>            string that can be used to select a syslog message for
>
>            logging. The match is performed on the RFC 5424
>
>            SYSLOG-MSG field.";
>
>       }
>
>
>
>
>
> 5) pattern-match:
>
>
>
>       leaf pattern-match {
>
>         if-feature select-match;
>
>         type string;
>
>         description
>
>           "This leaf desribes a Posix 1003.2 regular expression
>
>            string that can be used to select a syslog message for
>
>            logging. The match is performed on the RFC 5424
>
>            SYSLOG-MSG field.";
>
>       }
>
>
>
> The field SYSLOG-MSG is referenced but never defined or listed in
> the terminology section.
>
>
>
> [clyde] This will be fixed in the next draft.
>
>
>
> 6) how are the syslog-facility identities mapped to SYSLOG messages?
>
> 6a) how to distinguish acme:foo-facility from example:foo-facility in a
> SYSLOG message?
>
>
>
> [clyde] I do not understand your question. The current implementation of
> facilities was designed with the help of several Yang Doctors. The
> requirement is to support the facilities as called out in RFC 5424 as wel=
l
> as vendor specific facilities that can be added through augmentation.
> Vendor specific facilities are not meant to be used across multiple vendo=
r
> implementations.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> The filter is based on an identityref, which is a module-qualified name,
>
> e.g., acme:foo-facility and example:foo-facility are different entities.
>
> In the syslog message, only the string foo-facility will be present.
>
> The draft claims to provide extensible facilities,(see A.1)  but it only
>
> seems to work if the identities do not contain any duplicates.
>
>
>
>
>
> [clyde2] In my experience looking at multiple vendor implementations I di=
d
> not see any duplicates. If you have a suggestion on another way to extend
> facilities, I am all ears.
>
>
>
> 7) source-interface: what if the server does not let a source interface b=
e
> used and instead
>
>     normal routing determines the source interface (this leaf is very
> router-centric)
>
>
>
> [clyde] source-interface is optional. If not specified normal routing flo=
w
> would be used.
>
>
>
> 8) signing-options: are these widely deployed on all routers and Linux
> hosts?
>
>
>
> [clyde] Alex Clemm asked that we include syslog signing-options. This is
> implemented by at least Linux rsyslog.
>
>
>
> 9) logrotate: there are several features related to log file cleanup
> allowing lots of
>
>     server variability and forces the client to support all the options.
> Can't this be simplified
>
>    and all the micro-behavior YANG features removed?
>
>
>
> [clyde] This was designed by merging the requirements from several
> vendors. All of the variants specified are with if-feature so that the
> client does not have to support all options.
>
>
>
>
>
> There seems to be some procedures implied by these YANG objects,
>
> but it is not specified.
>
>
>
> The 4 different methods (each with its own feature), are in a container.
>
> Since container 'file-rotation' is in list 'log-file', the rotation varia=
nt
>
> can be different for every file.  Is this really how implementations work=
?
>
>
>
> [clyde2] We consolidated the requirements from multiple vendors.
>
>
>
> Juniper log file archiving is available via a global setting or on an
> individual file =E2=80=93 both number of files and file size are supporte=
d. See
> https://www.juniper.net/documentation/en_US/junos12.3/
> information-products/topic-collections/syslog-messages/
> index.html?jd0e921.html
>
>
>
> Cisco log file archiving is specified for an individual file. File size
> and optionally a hard code maximum number of bytes set aside for logging =
or
> a percent of total disk space available for logging may be specified.
>
> http://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/td/docs/ios-xml/ios/esm/
> command/esm-cr-book/esm-cr-a1.html#wp8708534740
>
>
>
> Alcatel-Lucent log file archiving is specified for an individual file and
> supports rollover in minutes and retention in hours.
>
> https://infoproducts.alcatel-lucent.com/html/0_add-h-f/93-
> 0071-10-01/7750_SR_OS_System_Management_Guide/Logcli.html#1038301
>
>
>
> The server is free to support from none to all of the archiving features
> (note: they are specified as features).
>
>
>
>
>
> Also, the different parameters in this container can interact if the serv=
er
>
> supports more than 1 feature.  The draft does not say anything about
>
> combining them.
>
>
>
> E.g.:
>
>
>
>            leaf number-of-files {
>
>               if-feature file-limit-size;
>
>               type uint32;
>
>               description
>
>                 "This leaf specifies the maximum number of log
>
>                  files retained. Specify 1 for implementations
>
>                  that only support one log file.";
>
>             }
>
>
>
> How does the client know if the server only supports 1 file or not?
>
> This should really be revisions, since these files are per log-file list
> entry.
>
>
>
> [clyde2] Make the default 1?
>
>
>
> If only 1 revision of the log-file is retained, then the meaning of the
> other
>
> leafs is unclear. If there is only 1 log-file revision, then what happens
>
> if the max-file-size # of megabytes, rollover # of minutes, or retention =
#
> of hours
>
> is reached?  Does syslog monitoring stop for the log-file entry?
>
>
>
> [clyde2] If one log-file is specified and max-file-size is specified, the
> single file is overwritten when max-file-size limit is encountered.
>
>
>
> How does the client access different revisions of the log file? Or even
> list them?
>
> How does the client know the current size of lifetime of the log-file
>
> They do not have names. Is it assumed they will be the log-file/name fiel=
d
>
> appended with ".1", ".2", etc.?
>
>
>
> [clyde2] There is no attempt to support oper data in this model.
>
>
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> Clyde
>
> 10) numeric limits: there is some odd usage of YANG types; some limits ar=
e
> uint64, some uint32,
>
> some uint16.  Seems like uint32 is sufficient
>
>
>
> [clyde]  The signing-options counts are as per the syslog-sign spec (RFC
> 5848) which is uint16. I will make all others uint32 except for the buffe=
r
> size limit which I will leave at unit64.
>
>
>
> Result:
>
> <seven signing-options counters> uint16
>
> buffer-limit-bytes uint64
>
> buffer-limit-messages uint32 (was formally uint64)
>
> number-of-files uint32
>
> max-file-size uint32 (was formally uint64)
>
> rollover unit32
>
> retention unit32 (was formally uint16)
>
>
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> Clyde
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Andy
>
>
>
>
>
> Andy
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 8:16 PM, Alex Campbell <Alex.Campbell@aviatnet.co=
m>
> wrote:
>
> I am considering to implement the data model in this draft.
>
> I have reviewed this draft and found the following issues. In
> approximately decreasing order of severity:
>
> * In the "selector-facility" choice statement the cases have misleading
> names - the case where no facility is matched is named "facility", and th=
e
> case where specific facilities are matched is named "name". I suggest
> "no-facilities" and "specified-facilities", or similar.
>
> * I disagree with the premise of the "no-facilities" case, which is that
> it can be used to disable a log action, according to the description:
>
>      description
>             "This case specifies no facilities will match when
>              comparing the syslog message facility. This is a
>              method that can be used to effectively disable a
>              particular log-action (buffer, file, etc).";
>
>   If an administrator wants to disable a log action they should do it by
> either removing it from the configuration, or by setting an "enabled" lea=
f
> to false.
>   With that in mind, there is no reason for the "no-facilities" case to
> exist.
>
> * What is the behaviour of a selector if neither "no-facilities" nor
> "facility-list" is present?
> * In the "selector" grouping it is not clear how the facility and pattern
> conditions are combined to decide whether a message is selected.
>   Must they both match the message, or is it sufficient for either one to
> match the message?
> * Not all servers have a console; there should be a feature to indicate
> whether logging to the console is supported.
> * Likewise, not all servers may support logging to user sessions.
> * Likewise, not all servers may support a user-accessible filesystem.
> * RFC 5424 states that the severity and protocol values are not normative=
.
> * It's not clear to me why this needs to be split into two modules. Is it
> so that other modules can define logging parameters but still be usable o=
n
> a device without syslog?
> * "log-severity" defines a severity filter, not a severity, so its name i=
s
> misleading.
> * Perhaps the "severity" type and the facility identities should have
> "reference" statements referring to RFC 5424, rather than referring to it
> in the description.
> * In section "8.2", "admisintrator" is a typo.
>
> I assume that the means of accessing the memory buffer and log files are
> out of scope of this data model.
>
> Alex
>
> ________________________________________
> From: netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Kent Watsen <
> kwatsen@juniper.net>
> Sent: Wednesday, 14 December 2016 2:01 p.m.
> To: netmod@ietf.org
> Subject: [netmod] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-netmod-syslog-model-11
>
> This is a notice to start a two-week NETMOD WG last call for the document=
:
>
>     A YANG Data Model for Syslog Configuration
>     https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netmod-syslog-model-11
>
> Please indicate your support or concerns by Tuesday, December 27, 2016.
>
> We are particularly interested in statements of the form:
>   * I have reviewed this draft and found no issues.
>   * I have reviewed this draft and found the following issues: ...
>
> As well as:
>   * I have implemented the data model in this draft.
>   * I am implementing the data model in this draft.
>   * I am considering to implement the data model in this draft.
>   * I am not considering to implement the data model in this draft.
>
> Thank you,
> NETMOD WG Chairs
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> netmod mailing list
> netmod@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
>
> _______________________________________________
> netmod mailing list
> netmod@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
>
>
>
>
>

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Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi,<div><br></div><div>Lots of improvement.</div><div>Just=
 some minor details I noticed...</div><div><br></div><div>SYSLOG-MSG field:=
 =C2=A0RFC 5424 is mentioned in the 2nd usage, not the first.</div><div>Sho=
uld be a citation -- =C2=A0SYSLOG-MSG field [RFC5424]</div><div><br></div><=
div><br></div><div>Page header says &#39;<span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);wh=
ite-space:pre-wrap">Abbreviated Title&#39; (the template placeholder text).=
</span></div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);white-space:pre-wrap">I s=
uggest &#39;Syslog Management&#39; (consistent with RFC 8022)</span></div><=
div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);white-space:pre-wrap"><br></span></div>=
<div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);white-space:pre-wrap"><br></span></div=
><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);white-space:pre-wrap">p5:</span></div=
><div><pre style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);word-wrap:break-word;white-space:pre-w=
rap">The severity is one of syslogtypes:severity</pre><pre style=3D"color:r=
gb(0,0,0);word-wrap:break-word;white-space:pre-wrap">perhaps:</pre><pre sty=
le=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);word-wrap:break-word;white-space:pre-wrap"><pre styl=
e=3D"word-wrap:break-word;white-space:pre-wrap">The severity is one of: typ=
e &quot;syslogtypes:severity&quot;</pre><pre style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;=
white-space:pre-wrap"><br></pre><pre style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;white-sp=
ace:pre-wrap">Actions are to log</pre><pre style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;wh=
ite-space:pre-wrap">perhaps:</pre><pre style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;white-=
space:pre-wrap">Actions are used to log</pre><div><br></div><div><br></div>=
<div><br></div><div>Andy</div><div><br></div></pre></div></div><div class=
=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 1:2=
8 PM, Kent Watsen <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kwatsen@juniper.n=
et" target=3D"_blank">kwatsen@juniper.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockqu=
ote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc s=
olid;padding-left:1ex">







<div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_3976195277814731423WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri">Thanks for the u=
pdate you Clyde!<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri"><u></u>=C2=A0<u>=
</u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri">Alex/Andy, since=
 this update was made per comments you made during Last Call, can you pleas=
e confirm that it does indeed address your concerns, and doesn&#39;t add an=
y new ones?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri"><u></u>=C2=A0<u>=
</u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri">Thanks,<u></u><u=
></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri">Kent<u></u><u></=
u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri"><u></u>=C2=A0<u>=
</u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2/14/17, 8:31 AM, &quot;netmod on behalf of Clyde=
 Wildes (cwildes)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:netmod-bounces@ietf.org" targ=
et=3D"_blank">netmod-bounces@ietf.org</a> on behalf of
<a href=3D"mailto:cwildes@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">cwildes@cisco.com</a=
>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">Hi,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">I just posted draft-ietf-netmod-syslog-<wbr>model-12 which=
 addresses the concerns that Alex and Andy raised in their review of draft =
11.
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">Changes from draft 11 to draft 12 can be seen at this link=
:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;"><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3Ddraft-ietf-=
netmod-syslog-model-11&amp;url2=3Ddraft-ietf-netmod-syslog-model-12&amp;dif=
ftype=3D--hwdiff" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?<wbr>url1=
=3Ddraft-ietf-netmod-syslog-<wbr>model-11&amp;url2=3Ddraft-ietf-<wbr>netmod=
-syslog-model-12&amp;<wbr>difftype=3D--hwdiff</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">Please review and comment.
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">Thanks,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">Clyde</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri;color:black">F=
rom: </span>
</b><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri;color:black">&quot;Clyde Wildes (cwi=
ldes)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cwildes@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">cwil=
des@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, January 11, 2017 at 2:54 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>Andy Bierman &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andy@yumaworks.com" target=3D=
"_blank">andy@yumaworks.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>Alex Campbell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alex.Campbell@aviatnet.com" =
target=3D"_blank">Alex.Campbell@aviatnet.com</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mail=
to:netmod@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">netmod@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:netmod@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">netmod@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [netmod] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-netmod-syslog-<wbr=
>model-11</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">Any</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">My comments inline as [clyde2]=E2=80=A6</span><u></u><u></=
u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri;color:black">F=
rom: </span>
</b><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri;color:black">Andy Bierman &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:andy@yumaworks.com" target=3D"_blank">andy@yumaworks.com</a>&gt=
;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Saturday, December 31, 2016 at 8:24 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;Clyde Wildes (cwildes)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cwildes=
@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">cwildes@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>Alex Campbell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Alex.Campbell@aviatnet.com" =
target=3D"_blank">Alex.Campbell@aviatnet.com</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mail=
to:netmod@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">netmod@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:netmod@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">netmod@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [netmod] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-netmod-syslog-<wbr=
>model-11</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Fri, Dec 30, 2016 at 10:16 AM, Clyde Wildes (cwil=
des) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cwildes@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">cwildes@cis=
co.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">Hi Andy,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">Thanks for taking the time to review the model.</span><u><=
/u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">My comments are inline as [clyde]=E2=80=A6</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in;border-right-width:initial;border-bottom-width:initial;border-left-=
width:initial;border-right-color:initial;border-bottom-color:initial;border=
-left-color:initial">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri;color:black">F=
rom:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri;color:black">netmod &lt;</spa=
n><a href=3D"mailto:netmod-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span style=
=3D"font-family:Calibri">netmod-bounces@ietf.org</span></a><span style=3D"f=
ont-family:Calibri;color:black">&gt; on behalf of
 Andy Bierman &lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:andy@yumaworks.com" target=3D"_b=
lank"><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri">andy@yumaworks.com</span></a><spa=
n style=3D"font-family:Calibri;color:black">&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Tuesday, December 27, 2016 at 3:04 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>Alex Campbell &lt;Alex.Campbell@Aviatnet.com&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>&quot;</span><a href=3D"mailto:netmod@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
"><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri">netmod@ietf.org</span></a><span style=
=3D"font-family:Calibri;color:black">&quot; &lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:ne=
tmod@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri">netmod=
@ietf.org</span></a><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri;color:black">&gt;<br=
>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [netmod] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-netmod-syslog-<wbr=
>model-11</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi,
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I am also considering an implementation.<u></u><u></=
u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I share the same concerns that Alex has brought up.<=
u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Some detailed comments:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">1) /syslog/actions: seems like everything is in this=
 container.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0Why is it needed?=C2=A0 Seems like it could be=
 removed as it serves no purpose<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">[clyde] Although this model is currently designated =
as config only, we could add operational data and rpc leaves in the future.=
 The actions container is to future-proof the model.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">2) 8 features: the granularity seems wrong.=C2=A0 Th=
e main container for each section<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0should have its own if-feature<u></u><u></u></=
p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 /console<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 /buffer<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 /file<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 /remote<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">[clyde] We have gone back and forth on this=E2=80=A6=
some have complained that there are too many features. I will be happy to a=
dd a feature for each action. Note that we studied the implementation
 of each action by six vendors including Linux and opted to not add feature=
s for actions implemented by at least 3 vendors. Vendors not implementing a=
n action could create a deviation.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I prefer 1 mandatory-to-implement and a minimal numb=
er of additional options.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 /console<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 /file<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 /remote<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">These are all mandatory-to-implement..<u></u><u></u>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">IMO only /file should be mandatory-to-implement.<u><=
/u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">[clyde2] I will remove the buffer and session action=
s in the next draft and will make the remaining three features.<u></u><u></=
u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">3) What is the &#39;buffer&#39; container for?<u></u=
><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 How is the internal memory accessed by the cl=
ient?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">[clyde] buffer is implemented by vendors typically f=
or routers capable of generating many syslog messages in event-storm bursts=
. Logging to memory (aka buffer) allows the preservation
 of syslog messages which might otherwise be lost.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">IMO it should be removed from the draft.<u></u><u></=
u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We certainly have changed the IETF NM focus.<u></u><=
u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In SNMP-land we routinely left the configuration out=
 of scope<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">and standardized the monitoring.=C2=A0 Now we are st=
andardizing<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">the configuration and leaving the monitoring out of =
scope?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I prefer complete standard solutions only.=C2=A0<u><=
/u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">There is no standard way to access the /console eith=
er.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Since the console provides &quot;show log&quot; I re=
ally do not see a need for<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">/buffer at all.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">[clyde2] The buffer action will be removed.<u></u><u=
></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">A =E2=80=9Cshow log=E2=80=9D command is used to acce=
ss the buffers. As this model is current designed as a configuration only m=
odel, there is no operational leaves for show log, or rpc leaves for
 clear log.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">4) selector-facility: Seems like no-facilities serve=
rs the same purpose<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 as an empty facility-list. The choice =
is not needed; just use the facility-list<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">[clyde] This was changed as a result of Alex=E2=80=
=99s feedback =E2=80=93 please see my response to him. The model will be ch=
anged to the following:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494p1"><span class=
=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494apple-converted-space">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0
</span><span class=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494s1">c=
ontainer</span> selector {<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494p2"><span class=
=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494apple-converted-space">=
<span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
</span></span>description<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494p3"><span class=
=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494apple-converted-space">=
<span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
</span></span><span class=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-42163451762711604=
94s2">&quot;</span>This container describes the log selector parameters<spa=
n class=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494apple-converted-=
space">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494p3"><span class=
=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494apple-converted-space">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
</span>for syslog.<span class=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271=
160494s2">&quot;;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494p1"><span class=
=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494apple-converted-space">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
</span><span class=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494s1">l=
ist</span> facility-list {<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494p1"><span class=
=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494apple-converted-space">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
</span><span class=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494s1">k=
ey</span> facility;<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494p2"><span class=
=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494apple-converted-space">=
<span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
</span></span>description<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494p3"><span class=
=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494apple-converted-space">=
<span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
</span></span><span class=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-42163451762711604=
94s2">&quot;</span>This list describes a collection of syslog<span class=3D=
"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494apple-converted-space">=C2=
=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494p3"><span class=
=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494apple-converted-space">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
</span>facilities and severities.<span class=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-=
m-4216345176271160494s2">&quot;;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494p1"><span class=
=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494apple-converted-space">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
</span><span class=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494s1">l=
eaf</span> facility {<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494p1"><span class=
=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494apple-converted-space">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
</span><span class=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494s1">t=
ype</span> <span class=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494s=
1">
union</span> {<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494p1"><span class=
=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494apple-converted-space">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
</span><span class=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494s1">t=
ype</span> <span class=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494s=
1">
identityref</span> {<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494p1"><span class=
=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494apple-converted-space">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
</span><span class=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494s1">b=
ase</span> syslogtypes:syslog-facility;<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494p1"><span class=
=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494apple-converted-space">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
</span>}<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494p1"><span class=
=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494apple-converted-space">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
</span><span class=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494s1">t=
ype</span> <span class=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494s=
1">
enumeration</span> {<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494p1"><span class=
=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494apple-converted-space">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
</span><span class=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494s1">e=
num</span> all {<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494p1"><span class=
=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494apple-converted-space">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
</span><span class=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494s1">d=
escription</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494p3"><span class=
=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494apple-converted-space">=
<span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
</span></span><span class=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-42163451762711604=
94s2">&quot;</span>This enum describes the case where all<span class=3D"m_3=
976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494apple-converted-space">=C2=A0<=
/span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494p3"><span class=
=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494apple-converted-space">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
</span>facilities are requested.<span class=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m=
-4216345176271160494s2">&quot;;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494p1"><span class=
=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494apple-converted-space">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
</span>}<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494p1"><span class=
=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494apple-converted-space">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
</span>}<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494p1"><span class=
=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494apple-converted-space">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
</span>}<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494p2"><span class=
=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494apple-converted-space">=
<span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
</span></span>description<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494p3"><span class=
=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494apple-converted-space">=
<span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
</span></span><span class=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-42163451762711604=
94s2">&quot;</span>The leaf uniquely identifies a syslog facility.<span cla=
ss=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494s2">&quot;;</span><u>=
</u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494p1"><span class=
=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494apple-converted-space">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
</span>}<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494p1"><span class=
=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494apple-converted-space">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
</span><span class=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494s1">u=
ses</span> log-severity;<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494p1"><span class=
=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494apple-converted-space">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
</span>}<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494p1"><span class=
=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494apple-converted-space">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
</span><span class=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494s1">l=
eaf</span> pattern-match {<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494p1"><span class=
=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494apple-converted-space">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
</span><span class=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494s1">i=
f-feature</span> select-match;<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494p1"><span class=
=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494apple-converted-space">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
</span><span class=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494s1">t=
ype</span> string;<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494p2"><span class=
=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494apple-converted-space">=
<span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
</span></span>description<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494p3"><span class=
=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494apple-converted-space">=
<span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
</span></span><span class=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-42163451762711604=
94s2">&quot;</span>This leaf desribes a Posix 1003.2 regular expression<spa=
n class=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494apple-converted-=
space">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494p3"><span class=
=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494apple-converted-space">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
</span>string that can be used to select a syslog message for<span class=3D=
"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494apple-converted-space">=C2=
=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494p3"><span class=
=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494apple-converted-space">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
</span>logging. The match is performed on the RFC 5424<span class=3D"m_3976=
195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</sp=
an><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494p3"><span class=
=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494apple-converted-space">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
</span>SYSLOG-MSG field.<span class=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345=
176271160494s2">&quot;;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494p1"><span class=
=3D"m_3976195277814731423gmail-m-4216345176271160494apple-converted-space">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
</span>}<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">5) pattern-match:=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<pre style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;white-space:pre-wrap"><span style=3D"col=
or:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 leaf pattern-match {</span><u></u>=
<u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
 if-feature select-match;</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
 type string;</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
 description</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;This leaf desribes a Posix 1003.2 regular expression</sp=
an><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 string that can be used to select a syslog message for</=
span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 logging. The match is performed on the RFC 5424</span><u=
></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 SYSLOG-MSG field.&quot;;</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }</span><u>=
</u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;white-space:pre-wrap"><span style=3D"col=
or:black">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The field SYSLOG-MSG is referenced but never defined=
 or listed in<br>
the terminology section.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">[clyde] This will be fixed in the next draft.<u></u>=
<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">6) how are the syslog-facility identities mapped to =
SYSLOG messages?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">6a) how to distinguish acme:foo-facility from exampl=
e:foo-facility in a SYSLOG message?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">[clyde] I do not understand your question. The curre=
nt implementation of facilities was designed with the help of several Yang =
Doctors. The requirement is to support the facilities
 as called out in RFC 5424 as well as vendor specific facilities that can b=
e added through augmentation. Vendor specific facilities are not meant to b=
e used across multiple vendor implementations.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The filter is based on an identityref, which is a mo=
dule-qualified name,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">e.g., acme:foo-facility and example:foo-facility are=
 different entities.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In the syslog message, only the string foo-facility =
will be present.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The draft claims to provide extensible facilities,(s=
ee A.1) =C2=A0but it only<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">seems to work if the identities do not contain any d=
uplicates.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">[clyde2] In my experience looking at multiple vendor=
 implementations I did not see any duplicates. If you have a suggestion on =
another way to extend facilities, I am all ears.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">7) source-interface: what if the server does not let=
 a source interface be used and instead<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 normal routing determines the source i=
nterface (this leaf is very router-centric)<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">[clyde] source-interface is optional. If not specifi=
ed normal routing flow would be used.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">8) signing-options: are these widely deployed on all=
 routers and Linux hosts?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">[clyde] Alex Clemm asked that we include syslog sign=
ing-options. This is implemented by at least Linux rsyslog.<u></u><u></u></=
p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">9) logrotate: there are several features related to =
log file cleanup allowing lots of<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 server variability and forces the clie=
nt to support all the options.=C2=A0 Can&#39;t this be simplified<u></u><u>=
</u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0and all the micro-behavior YANG feature=
s removed?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">[clyde] This was designed by merging the requirement=
s from several vendors. All of the variants specified are with if-feature s=
o that the client does not have to support all options.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">There seems to be some procedures implied by these Y=
ANG objects,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">but it is not specified.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The 4 different methods (each with its own feature),=
 are in a container.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Since container &#39;file-rotation&#39; is in list &=
#39;log-file&#39;, the rotation variant<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">can be different for every file.=C2=A0 Is this reall=
y how implementations work?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">[clyde2] We consolidated the requirements from multi=
ple vendors.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Juniper log file archiving is available via a global=
 setting or on an individual file =E2=80=93 both number of files and file s=
ize are supported. See
<a href=3D"https://www.juniper.net/documentation/en_US/junos12.3/informatio=
n-products/topic-collections/syslog-messages/index.html?jd0e921.html" targe=
t=3D"_blank">
https://www.juniper.net/<wbr>documentation/en_US/junos12.3/<wbr>information=
-products/topic-<wbr>collections/syslog-messages/<wbr>index.html?jd0e921.ht=
ml</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Cisco log file archiving is specified for an individ=
ual file. File size and optionally a hard code maximum number of bytes set =
aside for logging or a percent of total disk space available for logging ma=
y be specified.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"http://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/td/docs/ios-=
xml/ios/esm/command/esm-cr-book/esm-cr-a1.html#wp8708534740" target=3D"_bla=
nk">http://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/<wbr>td/docs/ios-xml/ios/esm/<wbr>command/=
esm-cr-book/esm-cr-a1.<wbr>html#wp8708534740</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Alcatel-Lucent log file archiving is specified for a=
n individual file and supports rollover in minutes and retention in hours.<=
u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://infoproducts.alcatel-lucent.com/h=
tml/0_add-h-f/93-0071-10-01/7750_SR_OS_System_Management_Guide/Logcli.html#=
1038301" target=3D"_blank">https://infoproducts.alcatel-<wbr>lucent.com/htm=
l/0_add-h-f/93-<wbr>0071-10-01/7750_SR_OS_System_<wbr>Management_Guide/Logc=
li.html#<wbr>1038301</a><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The server is free to support from none to all of th=
e archiving features (note: they are specified as features).<u></u><u></u><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Also, the different parameters in this container can=
 interact if the server<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">supports more than 1 feature.=C2=A0 The draft does n=
ot say anything about<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">combining them.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">E.g.:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 leaf number-of-files=
 {</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 if=
-feature file-limit-size;</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 ty=
pe uint32;</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 de=
scription</span><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 &quot;This leaf specifies the maximum number of log</span><u></u>=
<u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 files retained. Specify 1 for implementations</span><u></u>=
<u></u></pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 that only support one log file.&quot;;</span><u></u><u></u>=
</pre>
<pre style=3D"page-break-before:always"><span style=3D"color:black">=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }</span><u></u=
><u></u></pre>
<span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;;col=
or:black"><br clear=3D"all" style=3D"page-break-before:always">
<br clear=3D"all" style=3D"page-break-before:always">
</span>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">How does the client know if the server only supports=
 1 file or not?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This should really be revisions, since these files a=
re=C2=A0per log-file list entry.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">[clyde2] Make the default 1?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">If only 1 revision of the log-file is retained, then=
 the meaning of the other<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">leafs is unclear. If there is only 1 log-file revisi=
on, then what happens<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">if the max-file-size # of megabytes, rollover # of m=
inutes, or retention # of hours<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">is reached?=C2=A0 Does syslog monitoring stop for th=
e log-file entry?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">[clyde2] If one log-file is specified and max-file-s=
ize is specified, the single file is overwritten when max-file-size limit i=
s encountered.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">How does the client access different revisions of th=
e log file? Or even list them?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">How does the client know the current size of lifetim=
e of the log-file<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">They do not have names. Is it assumed they will be t=
he log-file/name field<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">appended with &quot;.1&quot;, &quot;.2&quot;, etc.?<=
u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">[clyde2] There is no attempt to support oper data in=
 this model.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Clyde<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">10) numeric limits: there is some odd usage of YANG =
types; some limits are uint64, some uint32,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">some uint16.=C2=A0 Seems like uint32 is sufficient<u=
></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">[clyde]=C2=A0 The signing-options counts are as per =
the syslog-sign spec (RFC 5848) which is uint16. I will make all others uin=
t32 except for the buffer size limit which I will leave
 at unit64.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Result:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&lt;seven signing-options counters&gt; uint16<u></u>=
<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">buffer-limit-bytes uint64<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">buffer-limit-messages uint32 (was formally uint64)<u=
></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">number-of-files uint32<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">max-file-size uint32 (was formally uint64)<u></u><u>=
</u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">rollover unit32<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">retention unit32 (was formally uint16)<u></u><u></u>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Clyde<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Andy<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Andy<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 8:16 PM, Alex Campbell &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:Alex.Campbell@aviatnet.com" target=3D"_blank">Alex.Campbel=
l@aviatnet.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt;border-top-width:initial;border-right-width:initial;border-bot=
tom-width:initial;border-top-color:initial;border-right-color:initial;borde=
r-bottom-color:initial">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I am considering to implement the data model in this=
 draft.<br>
<br>
I have reviewed this draft and found the following issues. In approximately=
 decreasing order of severity:<br>
<br>
* In the &quot;selector-facility&quot; choice statement the cases have misl=
eading names - the case where no facility is matched is named &quot;facilit=
y&quot;, and the case where specific facilities are matched is named &quot;=
name&quot;. I suggest &quot;no-facilities&quot; and &quot;specified-facilit=
ies&quot;,
 or similar.<br>
<br>
* I disagree with the premise of the &quot;no-facilities&quot; case, which =
is that it can be used to disable a log action, according to the descriptio=
n:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0description<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;This case specifies no faci=
lities will match when<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0comparing the syslog messag=
e facility. This is a<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0method that can be used to =
effectively disable a<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0particular log-action (buff=
er, file, etc).&quot;;<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 If an administrator wants to disable a log action they should do it =
by either removing it from the configuration, or by setting an &quot;enable=
d&quot; leaf to false.<br>
=C2=A0 With that in mind, there is no reason for the &quot;no-facilities&qu=
ot; case to exist.<br>
<br>
* What is the behaviour of a selector if neither &quot;no-facilities&quot; =
nor &quot;facility-list&quot; is present?<br>
* In the &quot;selector&quot; grouping it is not clear how the facility and=
 pattern conditions are combined to decide whether a message is selected.<b=
r>
=C2=A0 Must they both match the message, or is it sufficient for either one=
 to match the message?<br>
* Not all servers have a console; there should be a feature to indicate whe=
ther logging to the console is supported.<br>
* Likewise, not all servers may support logging to user sessions.<br>
* Likewise, not all servers may support a user-accessible filesystem.<br>
* RFC 5424 states that the severity and protocol values are not normative.<=
br>
* It&#39;s not clear to me why this needs to be split into two modules. Is =
it so that other modules can define logging parameters but still be usable =
on a device without syslog?<br>
* &quot;log-severity&quot; defines a severity filter, not a severity, so it=
s name is misleading.<br>
* Perhaps the &quot;severity&quot; type and the facility identities should =
have &quot;reference&quot; statements referring to RFC 5424, rather than re=
ferring to it in the description.<br>
* In section &quot;8.2&quot;, &quot;admisintrator&quot; is a typo.<br>
<br>
I assume that the means of accessing the memory buffer and log files are ou=
t of scope of this data model.<br>
<br>
Alex<br>
<br>
______________________________<wbr>__________<br>
From: netmod &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:netmod-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blan=
k">netmod-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Kent Watsen &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:kwatsen@juniper.net" target=3D"_blank">kwatsen@juniper.net</a>&gt;<b=
r>
Sent: Wednesday, 14 December 2016 2:01 p.m.<br>
To: <a href=3D"mailto:netmod@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">netmod@ietf.org</a=
><br>
Subject: [netmod] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-netmod-syslog-<wbr>model-11<b=
r>
<br>
This is a notice to start a two-week NETMOD WG last call for the document:<=
br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 A YANG Data Model for Syslog Configuration<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netmod-sysl=
og-model-11" target=3D"_blank">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/<wbr>draft-ietf-netmod-syslog-<wbr>model-11</a>=
<br>
<br>
Please indicate your support or concerns by Tuesday, December 27, 2016.<br>
<br>
We are particularly interested in statements of the form:<br>
=C2=A0 * I have reviewed this draft and found no issues.<br>
=C2=A0 * I have reviewed this draft and found the following issues: ...<br>
<br>
As well as:<br>
=C2=A0 * I have implemented the data model in this draft.<br>
=C2=A0 * I am implementing the data model in this draft.<br>
=C2=A0 * I am considering to implement the data model in this draft.<br>
=C2=A0 * I am not considering to implement the data model in this draft.<br=
>
<br>
Thank you,<br>
NETMOD WG Chairs<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
netmod mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:netmod@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">netmod@ietf.org</a><br=
>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod" target=3D"_blank">=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/netmod</a><br>
<br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
netmod mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:netmod@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">netmod@ietf.org</a><br=
>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod" target=3D"_blank">=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/netmod</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br></div>

--001a1142453c6824aa0549127b05--


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Cc: "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [netmod] netmod-revised-datastores:  templates, interactions with RFC6243 'report-all'
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I think that an implementation that supports templates can indeed have the =
situation where the running is not valid.  The template (when expanded) may=
 provide data that completes the data in a way that makes it valid.

I can see how it is intuitive to consider that validation happens after tem=
plate expansion.  But it does break the letter of the RFC.

Jason

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ladislav Lhotka [mailto:lhotka@nic.cz]
> Sent: Monday, February 20, 2017 10:49
> To: Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>
> Cc: Sterne, Jason (Nokia - CA) <jason.sterne@nokia.com>; netmod@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [netmod] netmod-revised-datastores: templates, interactions =
with
> RFC6243 'report-all'
>=20
>=20
> > On 20 Feb 2017, at 15:53, Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hi Lada,
> >
> >
> >>> Yes, the YANG would have to define schema for both the template and
> >>> expanded forms.
> >>
> >> Are you saying that running and intended (may) have different schemas?
> >> The draft indicates that only intended is subject to validation.
> >> Either way, it significantly changes the rules of the game because
> >> validation in RFC 7950 is bound to running.
> >
> > I've been assuming that there is only one configuration schema, but
> > that the template schema wouldn't apply in the intended datastore.
> > This might be an academic distinction if <edit/copy-config>, or
> > RESTCONF's unified datastore, only act on the running datastore.  Yes,
>=20
> I think my problem is rather the opposite: could running containing templ=
ates
> be invalid? Of course, it depends on how templates work, which isn't clea=
r from
> the document (yet).
>=20
> >  we'd want to support read-only operations on 'intended', but I'm not e=
ntirely
> sure about read-write operations, including the <lock> or even the <valid=
ate>
> operations.
> >
> > Regarding moving validation from running to intended, I think that Sect=
ion
> 6.3 might be just poorly worded.  At least, I took it to mean that semant=
ic
> validation conceptually takes place after the system has removed inactive=
 data
> and flattened templates.  Not only does it seem intuitive, but it also he=
lps
> simplify must/when/etc. expressions, as they only need to target the
> expanded/flattened template paths.
>=20
> OK, but RFC 7950 list a number of properties that must be true in "all da=
ta
> trees". I suspect that running (or candidate) with unexpanded templates m=
ight
> break some of these properties.
>=20
> >
> >
> >> I cannot help myself: we need to remove all dependecies on protocols,
> >> specific datastores and data representation (encoding) from the YANG
> >> spec in order to make it generally applicable.
> >
> > I made a similar comment recently here: https://www.ietf.org/mail-
> archive/web/netconf/current/msg12356.html.  Read the remainder of the
> thread to see the response there.
>=20
> Yes, this has been discussed several times, in fact I proposed it even be=
fore
> work on YANG 1.1 had started (at IETF 87). Juergen wants to have an
> architecture document first, but I think we could instead limit the scope=
 of
> YANG, make it into kind of schema language for hierarchical data, and use=
 as a
> building block that does validation.
>=20
> Lada
>=20
> >
> > That said, I definitely think that a 7950bis should remove all of the X=
ML and
> NETCONF encoding text in RFC7950.  A number of these kinds of changes are
> being tracked here: https://github.com/netmod-wg/yang-next/issues.
> >
> >
> > Kent  // as an author
> >
> >
>=20
> --
> Ladislav Lhotka, CZ.NIC Labs
> PGP Key ID: 0xB8F92B08A9F76C67
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20


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To: Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>, "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [netmod] netmod-revised-datastores:  templates, interactions with RFC6243 'report-all'
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From: "Zhengguangying (Walker)" <zhengguangying@huawei.com>
To: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Thread-Topic: [netmod] Hi all, one issue about YANG deviate's Substatements
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Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2017 06:02:18 +0000
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Cc: "Qudan \(Beijing-NOS\)" <qudan.qudan@huawei.com>, "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>, Yangang <yangang@huawei.com>
Subject: Re: [netmod] Hi all, one issue about YANG deviate's Substatements
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--_000_381D7D55085B1E4D8B581BD652E1E140B2A1BDD2nkgeml513mbschi_--


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From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
To: "Sterne, Jason (Nokia - CA)" <jason.sterne@nokia.com>
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Subject: Re: [netmod] netmod-revised-datastores:  templates, interactions with RFC6243 'report-all'
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On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 03:02:08AM +0000, Sterne, Jason (Nokia - CA) wrote:
> I think that an implementation that supports templates can indeed have the situation where the running is not valid.  The template (when expanded) may provide data that completes the data in a way that makes it valid.
> 
> I can see how it is intuitive to consider that validation happens after template expansion.  But it does break the letter of the RFC.
>

Templates are interesting since (a) template data should be valid and
(b) the expanded config should be valid. My understanding is that both
are desirable.

The RFCs do not talk about templates and hence people seem to have
different interpretations and I do not think it valid to say that
interpretations break the letter of the RFC. (And I think it would
help if you point to the RFC statements that you think clarify
template behaviour.)

The WG needs to decide what the expectations are for templates and
whether validity of templated config means just (a), just (b) or both
(a) and (b). I actually think it should be (a) and (b) but there might
be implementations that only do (a) or only do (b).

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>


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Subject: Re: [netmod] netmod-revised-datastores:  templates, interactions with RFC6243 'report-all'
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> On 22 Feb 2017, at 07:59, Juergen Schoenwaelder =
<j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
>=20
> On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 03:02:08AM +0000, Sterne, Jason (Nokia - CA) =
wrote:
>> I think that an implementation that supports templates can indeed =
have the situation where the running is not valid.  The template (when =
expanded) may provide data that completes the data in a way that makes =
it valid.
>>=20
>> I can see how it is intuitive to consider that validation happens =
after template expansion.  But it does break the letter of the RFC.
>>=20
>=20
> Templates are interesting since (a) template data should be valid and
> (b) the expanded config should be valid. My understanding is that both
> are desirable.

Agreed, but either may then need a different data model. For example, =
where "yang-identifier" leaf is permitted in expanded data, a template =
may use globs or regular expressions (that's one way of templating I =
know from CLIs). =20

>=20
> The RFCs do not talk about templates and hence people seem to have
> different interpretations and I do not think it valid to say that
> interpretations break the letter of the RFC. (And I think it would
> help if you point to the RFC statements that you think clarify
> template behaviour.)

So far the idea has been that a data model (i.e. YANG Library and =
modules listed therein) encompasses basically all data that a server =
deals with. So, for example, RFC 7950 says that all data trees must =
satisfy certain conditions. This will no more be the case with =
templates, at least not with the same data model.  =20

>=20
> The WG needs to decide what the expectations are for templates and
> whether validity of templated config means just (a), just (b) or both
> (a) and (b). I actually think it should be (a) and (b) but there might
> be implementations that only do (a) or only do (b).

We now have:

1. YANG as a language for specifying schema, datatypes and constraints.

2. YANG library as a means for composing YANG modules into data models.

What's IMO needed is

3. a formalism for binding data models to specific checkpoints in a =
network management workflow (such as intended or ephemeral datastore). =
Different use cases may have different datastores and workflows, and =
that's why I believe this has to be "parametrised".

RFC 6020/7950 does #3 in a relatively rigid way that really works only =
for the NETCONF protocol (which was of course the original aim).

Lada

>=20
> /js
>=20
> --=20
> Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
> Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>

--
Ladislav Lhotka, CZ.NIC Labs
PGP Key ID: 0xB8F92B08A9F76C67






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Subject: Re: [netmod] netmod-revised-datastores:  templates, interactions with RFC6243 'report-all'
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On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 08:41:55AM +0100, Ladislav Lhotka wrote:
> 
> > 
> > The WG needs to decide what the expectations are for templates and
> > whether validity of templated config means just (a), just (b) or both
> > (a) and (b). I actually think it should be (a) and (b) but there might
> > be implementations that only do (a) or only do (b).
> 
> We now have:
> 
> 1. YANG as a language for specifying schema, datatypes and constraints.

YANG also defines when and how constraints are expected to be checked. Are
you saying we should remove this, i.e., have a language where I can write
down must constraints but leave it open when and how they are checked?

> 2. YANG library as a means for composing YANG modules into data models.

YANG library reports the set of YANG modules implemented. I do not think
it does composition of YANG modules into data models.

> What's IMO needed is
> 
> 3. a formalism for binding data models to specific checkpoints in a network management workflow (such as intended or ephemeral datastore). Different use cases may have different datastores and workflows, and that's why I believe this has to be "parametrised".
> 
> RFC 6020/7950 does #3 in a relatively rigid way that really works only for the NETCONF protocol (which was of course the original aim).

I do not agree with the statement that the model used by YANG only
works for the NETCONF protocol. The question is whether

(a) we can agree on a common datastore model with clearly defined
    semantics such that it simplifies implementations of clients and
    servers since datastore semantics are predictable (this is what
    the datastore design team has been working on)

(b) or we raise the bar for clients by requiring that clients obtain
    sufficient information about the specific workflow supported by a
    server so that they can reliably map a configuration change
    request to the appropriate datastore the server likes to have
    modified.

My fear is that (b) significantly raises the bar and thus many clients
in reality will simply assume certain datastore semantics and then
fail to interoperate with other servers. We may get back to vendor
specific silos.

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>


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> On 22 Feb 2017, at 09:31, Juergen Schoenwaelder =
<j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
>=20
> On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 08:41:55AM +0100, Ladislav Lhotka wrote:
>>=20
>>>=20
>>> The WG needs to decide what the expectations are for templates and
>>> whether validity of templated config means just (a), just (b) or =
both
>>> (a) and (b). I actually think it should be (a) and (b) but there =
might
>>> be implementations that only do (a) or only do (b).
>>=20
>> We now have:
>>=20
>> 1. YANG as a language for specifying schema, datatypes and =
constraints.
>=20
> YANG also defines when and how constraints are expected to be checked. =
Are

The semantics of constraints are mostly defined in terms of a data tree, =
child nodes etc. that are pretty universal. Accessible trees for =
evaluating XPath have specific definitions, such as state data + =
running, but the XPath semantics don't really depend on this - the tree =
just has to be defined somehow.=20

> you saying we should remove this, i.e., have a language where I can =
write
> down must constraints but leave it open when and how they are checked?

Yes. Even now, you can write a must constraint referring to a node that =
may not eventually exist in the data model (because the corresponding =
module isn't implemented). YANG modules are just building blocks, it is =
the data model that has to make sense as a whole.

>=20
>> 2. YANG library as a means for composing YANG modules into data =
models.
>=20
> YANG library reports the set of YANG modules implemented. I do not =
think
> it does composition of YANG modules into data models.

So what's your definition of a data model? For me it's exactly what YANG =
Library says, including supported features etc. Schema mount could be an =
additional part of this. The point is that implementations and tools =
that want to do validation have to be able to compose the schema of the =
entire data tree, and the result is what I call the data model.=20

>=20
>> What's IMO needed is
>>=20
>> 3. a formalism for binding data models to specific checkpoints in a =
network management workflow (such as intended or ephemeral datastore). =
Different use cases may have different datastores and workflows, and =
that's why I believe this has to be "parametrised".
>>=20
>> RFC 6020/7950 does #3 in a relatively rigid way that really works =
only for the NETCONF protocol (which was of course the original aim).
>=20
> I do not agree with the statement that the model used by YANG only
> works for the NETCONF protocol. The question is whether

Well, yes, you can use it for any protocol as long as it has certain =
datastores and operations, or if you selectively ignore/reinterpret =
parts of RFC 7950. Sample from sec. 8.3.3:

If the datastore is "running" or "startup", these constraints MUST be =
enforced at the end of the <edit-config> or <copy-config> operation.  If =
the datastore is "candidate", the constraint enforcement is delayed =
until a <commit> or <validate> operation takes place.

>=20
> (a) we can agree on a common datastore model with clearly defined
>    semantics such that it simplifies implementations of clients and
>    servers since datastore semantics are predictable (this is what
>    the datastore design team has been working on)

I doubt that any particular datastore model can work for everybody. =
What's in the revised-datastore draft is already way too complex for =
some use cases but, on the other hand, other use cases may need =
something different or more complicated.=20

>=20
> (b) or we raise the bar for clients by requiring that clients obtain
>    sufficient information about the specific workflow supported by a
>    server so that they can reliably map a configuration change
>    request to the appropriate datastore the server likes to have
>    modified.
>=20
> My fear is that (b) significantly raises the bar and thus many clients
> in reality will simply assume certain datastore semantics and then
> fail to interoperate with other servers. We may get back to vendor
> specific silos.

I don't mean that implementations will necessarily have to dynamically =
parse and set up such a workflow - a protocol definition could simply =
specify a particular workflow, or a few related ones. In fact, already =
NETCONF covers a number of workflows that are used in the wild, =
including

- persistent and writable running

- persistent startup + writable ephemeral running

- persistent startup + persistent writable candidate + ephemeral =
read-only running

I also suspect that most troubles I2RS folks have had with YANG were due =
to the need to retrofit their workflow to that of NETCONF.

Lada

>=20
> /js
>=20
> --=20
> Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
> Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>

--
Ladislav Lhotka, CZ.NIC Labs
PGP Key ID: 0xB8F92B08A9F76C67






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From: Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
To: Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz>
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Subject: Re: [netmod] netmod-revised-datastores:  templates, interactions with RFC6243 'report-all'
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On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 11:22:22AM +0100, Ladislav Lhotka wrote:
> 
> > On 22 Feb 2017, at 09:31, Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
> > 
> > On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 08:41:55AM +0100, Ladislav Lhotka wrote:
> >> 
> >>> 
> >>> The WG needs to decide what the expectations are for templates and
> >>> whether validity of templated config means just (a), just (b) or both
> >>> (a) and (b). I actually think it should be (a) and (b) but there might
> >>> be implementations that only do (a) or only do (b).
> >> 
> >> We now have:
> >> 
> >> 1. YANG as a language for specifying schema, datatypes and constraints.
> > 
> > YANG also defines when and how constraints are expected to be checked. Are
> 
> The semantics of constraints are mostly defined in terms of a data tree, child nodes etc. that are pretty universal. Accessible trees for evaluating XPath have specific definitions, such as state data + running, but the XPath semantics don't really depend on this - the tree just has to be defined somehow. 
> 
> > you saying we should remove this, i.e., have a language where I can write
> > down must constraints but leave it open when and how they are checked?
> 
> Yes. Even now, you can write a must constraint referring to a node that may not eventually exist in the data model (because the corresponding module isn't implemented). YANG modules are just building blocks, it is the data model that has to make sense as a whole.
>

YANG says very clearly what it means for a configuration datastore to
be valid and we have a common understanding that the <running>
datastore is always kept valid.
 
> >> 2. YANG library as a means for composing YANG modules into data models.
> > 
> > YANG library reports the set of YANG modules implemented. I do not think
> > it does composition of YANG modules into data models.
> 
> So what's your definition of a data model? For me it's exactly what YANG Library says, including supported features etc. Schema mount could be an additional part of this. The point is that implementations and tools that want to do validation have to be able to compose the schema of the entire data tree, and the result is what I call the data model. 
>

OK. Certainly one way to look at things.

> >> What's IMO needed is
> >> 
> >> 3. a formalism for binding data models to specific checkpoints in a network management workflow (such as intended or ephemeral datastore). Different use cases may have different datastores and workflows, and that's why I believe this has to be "parametrised".
> >> 
> >> RFC 6020/7950 does #3 in a relatively rigid way that really works only for the NETCONF protocol (which was of course the original aim).
> > 
> > I do not agree with the statement that the model used by YANG only
> > works for the NETCONF protocol. The question is whether
> 
> Well, yes, you can use it for any protocol as long as it has certain datastores and operations, or if you selectively ignore/reinterpret parts of RFC 7950. Sample from sec. 8.3.3:
> 
> If the datastore is "running" or "startup", these constraints MUST be enforced at the end of the <edit-config> or <copy-config> operation.  If the datastore is "candidate", the constraint enforcement is delayed until a <commit> or <validate> operation takes place.
> 
> > 
> > (a) we can agree on a common datastore model with clearly defined
> >    semantics such that it simplifies implementations of clients and
> >    servers since datastore semantics are predictable (this is what
> >    the datastore design team has been working on)
> 
> I doubt that any particular datastore model can work for everybody. What's in the revised-datastore draft is already way too complex for some use cases but, on the other hand, other use cases may need something different or more complicated. 
>

Not every datastore needs to be in every implementation or accessible over
every protocol. If this is not stated clearly enough, we may need to improve
the writing.

> > (b) or we raise the bar for clients by requiring that clients obtain
> >    sufficient information about the specific workflow supported by a
> >    server so that they can reliably map a configuration change
> >    request to the appropriate datastore the server likes to have
> >    modified.
> > 
> > My fear is that (b) significantly raises the bar and thus many clients
> > in reality will simply assume certain datastore semantics and then
> > fail to interoperate with other servers. We may get back to vendor
> > specific silos.
> 
> I don't mean that implementations will necessarily have to dynamically parse and set up such a workflow - a protocol definition could simply specify a particular workflow, or a few related ones. In fact, already NETCONF covers a number of workflows that are used in the wild, including
> 
> - persistent and writable running
> 
> - persistent startup + writable ephemeral running
> 
> - persistent startup + persistent writable candidate + ephemeral read-only running
> 
> I also suspect that most troubles I2RS folks have had with YANG were due to the need to retrofit their workflow to that of NETCONF.
>

So you want per protocol datastore models? How do you then deal with
implementations that have to support multiple protocols, i.e.,
multiple data store models? How do you ensure that all combinations
you get can be implemented meaningful together?

But then, you wrote 'different use cases' and not 'differnet
protocols' so it did sound like you want even different use cases with
the same protocol to use different datastore semantics and workflows.
It seems there is a flexibility - complexity tradeoff here.

/js

-- 
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>


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Subject: Re: [netmod] netmod-revised-datastores:  templates, interactions with RFC6243 'report-all'
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> On 22 Feb 2017, at 11:34, Juergen Schoenwaelder =
<j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
>=20
> On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 11:22:22AM +0100, Ladislav Lhotka wrote:
>>=20
>>> On 22 Feb 2017, at 09:31, Juergen Schoenwaelder =
<j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 08:41:55AM +0100, Ladislav Lhotka wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> The WG needs to decide what the expectations are for templates and
>>>>> whether validity of templated config means just (a), just (b) or =
both
>>>>> (a) and (b). I actually think it should be (a) and (b) but there =
might
>>>>> be implementations that only do (a) or only do (b).
>>>>=20
>>>> We now have:
>>>>=20
>>>> 1. YANG as a language for specifying schema, datatypes and =
constraints.
>>>=20
>>> YANG also defines when and how constraints are expected to be =
checked. Are
>>=20
>> The semantics of constraints are mostly defined in terms of a data =
tree, child nodes etc. that are pretty universal. Accessible trees for =
evaluating XPath have specific definitions, such as state data + =
running, but the XPath semantics don't really depend on this - the tree =
just has to be defined somehow.=20
>>=20
>>> you saying we should remove this, i.e., have a language where I can =
write
>>> down must constraints but leave it open when and how they are =
checked?
>>=20
>> Yes. Even now, you can write a must constraint referring to a node =
that may not eventually exist in the data model (because the =
corresponding module isn't implemented). YANG modules are just building =
blocks, it is the data model that has to make sense as a whole.
>>=20
>=20
> YANG says very clearly what it means for a configuration datastore to
> be valid and we have a common understanding that the <running>
> datastore is always kept valid.

Yes, but what we are now discussing are several different configuration =
datastores - running, intended, maybe other - and validity may mean =
something different in each, even validity in terms of schema or =
datatypes.

>=20
>>>> 2. YANG library as a means for composing YANG modules into data =
models.
>>>=20
>>> YANG library reports the set of YANG modules implemented. I do not =
think
>>> it does composition of YANG modules into data models.
>>=20
>> So what's your definition of a data model? For me it's exactly what =
YANG Library says, including supported features etc. Schema mount could =
be an additional part of this. The point is that implementations and =
tools that want to do validation have to be able to compose the schema =
of the entire data tree, and the result is what I call the data model.=20=

>>=20
>=20
> OK. Certainly one way to look at things.
>=20
>>>> What's IMO needed is
>>>>=20
>>>> 3. a formalism for binding data models to specific checkpoints in a =
network management workflow (such as intended or ephemeral datastore). =
Different use cases may have different datastores and workflows, and =
that's why I believe this has to be "parametrised".
>>>>=20
>>>> RFC 6020/7950 does #3 in a relatively rigid way that really works =
only for the NETCONF protocol (which was of course the original aim).
>>>=20
>>> I do not agree with the statement that the model used by YANG only
>>> works for the NETCONF protocol. The question is whether
>>=20
>> Well, yes, you can use it for any protocol as long as it has certain =
datastores and operations, or if you selectively ignore/reinterpret =
parts of RFC 7950. Sample from sec. 8.3.3:
>>=20
>> If the datastore is "running" or "startup", these constraints MUST be =
enforced at the end of the <edit-config> or <copy-config> operation.  If =
the datastore is "candidate", the constraint enforcement is delayed =
until a <commit> or <validate> operation takes place.
>>=20
>>>=20
>>> (a) we can agree on a common datastore model with clearly defined
>>>   semantics such that it simplifies implementations of clients and
>>>   servers since datastore semantics are predictable (this is what
>>>   the datastore design team has been working on)
>>=20
>> I doubt that any particular datastore model can work for everybody. =
What's in the revised-datastore draft is already way too complex for =
some use cases but, on the other hand, other use cases may need =
something different or more complicated.=20
>>=20
>=20
> Not every datastore needs to be in every implementation or accessible =
over
> every protocol. If this is not stated clearly enough, we may need to =
improve
> the writing.

How can a client learn which datastores are actually implemented? Trial =
and error, or via capabilities?

>=20
>>> (b) or we raise the bar for clients by requiring that clients obtain
>>>   sufficient information about the specific workflow supported by a
>>>   server so that they can reliably map a configuration change
>>>   request to the appropriate datastore the server likes to have
>>>   modified.
>>>=20
>>> My fear is that (b) significantly raises the bar and thus many =
clients
>>> in reality will simply assume certain datastore semantics and then
>>> fail to interoperate with other servers. We may get back to vendor
>>> specific silos.
>>=20
>> I don't mean that implementations will necessarily have to =
dynamically parse and set up such a workflow - a protocol definition =
could simply specify a particular workflow, or a few related ones. In =
fact, already NETCONF covers a number of workflows that are used in the =
wild, including
>>=20
>> - persistent and writable running
>>=20
>> - persistent startup + writable ephemeral running
>>=20
>> - persistent startup + persistent writable candidate + ephemeral =
read-only running
>>=20
>> I also suspect that most troubles I2RS folks have had with YANG were =
due to the need to retrofit their workflow to that of NETCONF.
>>=20
>=20
> So you want per protocol datastore models? How do you then deal with
> implementations that have to support multiple protocols, i.e.,
> multiple data store models? How do you ensure that all combinations
> you get can be implemented meaningful together?

Clever clients supporting multiple datastore models could probably be =
written but I don't think it is a general requirement. Similarly, a =
NETCONF client can be designed to work only with writable running, or =
with a very particular data model - does it mean it is non-compliant?

Unlike very generic protocols such as TCP or HTTP, network management =
tools can mostly be selected specifically for the network at hand - and =
be more or less flexible. I can accept that tools designed for remote =
management of IoT devices cannot be used for backbone router =
configuration.

>=20
> But then, you wrote 'different use cases' and not 'differnet
> protocols' so it did sound like you want even different use cases with
> the same protocol to use different datastore semantics and workflows.
> It seems there is a flexibility - complexity tradeoff here.
>=20

OK, it depends on how the terms are defined, so yes, maybe I should have =
written "application" rather than "protocol". And yes, I do think it =
makes sense to develop applications that, for example, use the syntax =
and semantics of RESTCONF messages but not the exact structure of =
resources prescribed in RFC 8040. If RESTCONF is to support the revised =
datastore model, will it require a new protocol?

Lada

> /js
>=20
> --=20
> Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
> Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>

--
Ladislav Lhotka, CZ.NIC Labs
PGP Key ID: 0xB8F92B08A9F76C67






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From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2017 10:01:23 -0800
Message-ID: <CABCOCHRj9MkamovTc6G0ksrhh0nRsKoZRLN1cOB1HxhgYCsjGA@mail.gmail.com>
To: "Zhengguangying (Walker)" <zhengguangying@huawei.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113fb18aeea33a0549224822
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Cc: "Qudan \(Beijing-NOS\)" <qudan.qudan@huawei.com>, "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>, Yangang <yangang@huawei.com>
Subject: Re: [netmod] Hi all, one issue about YANG deviate's Substatements
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On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 10:02 PM, Zhengguangying (Walker) <
zhengguangying@huawei.com> wrote:

> Hi Andy,
>
>
>
>     Thanks for your reply, my mean is not make the =E2=80=9CDeviations be
> conditional=E2=80=9D, but want to add =E2=80=9Cwhen=E2=80=9D statements t=
o exist module
> definition,  because vendor may cannot support all specifications defined
> in IETF-YANG but need to add some constrains.
>
>
>

YANG deviations do not support when-stmt at all.
You can add and delete must-stmts (but not replace them
(replace can be done with delate + add).

You cannot add, delete, or replace a when-stmt.
Add is not allowed since only 1 when-stmt per data node is permitted.
I don't see any reason why replace and delete should have been left out,
but they were.
I also don't get why it is safe to replace the type-stmt but not the
status-stmt.
Lots of restrictions on deviations are hard to understand.



> Thanks & Regards
>
>
>
> Walker (Guangying zheng)
>
>
>

Andy


>
>
> *From:* Andy Bierman [mailto:andy@yumaworks.com]
> *Sent:* 2017=E5=B9=B42=E6=9C=8822=E6=97=A5 3:24
> *To:* Zhengguangying (Walker)
> *Cc:* netmod@ietf.org; Qudan (Beijing-NOS); Guopeipei (Peipei Guo);
> Yangang
> *Subject:* Re: [netmod] Hi all, one issue about YANG deviate's
> Substatements
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 12:32 AM, Zhengguangying (Walker) <
> zhengguangying@huawei.com> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
>
>
>   When we define YANG models, there has one issue about =E2=80=9Cdeviate'=
s
> Substatements=E2=80=9D
>
>
>
>   In section *7.20.3.2.  The "deviate" Statement given the *Substatements
> supported, but =E2=80=9Cwhen=E2=80=9D not there.
>
> config       | 7.21.1       | 0..1        |
>
>                | default      | 7.6.4, 7.7.4 | 0..n        |
>
>                | mandatory    | 7.6.5        | 0..1        |
>
>                | max-elements | 7.7.6        | 0..1        |
>
>                | min-elements | 7.7.5        | 0..1        |
>
>                | must         | 7.5.3        | 0..n        |
>
>                | type         | 7.4          | 0..1        |
>
>                | unique       | 7.8.3        | 0..n        |
>
>                | units        | 7.3.3        | 0..1        |
>
>                +--------------+--------------+-------------+
>
> Now, we have the scenario to add =E2=80=9Cwhen=E2=80=9D constrains when d=
eviate the
> existed YANG module, how I can do it?
>
>
>
>
>
> You cannot add when-stmts to deviations.
>
> It is not supported.  Deviations cannot be conditional.
>
>
>
> May be it need extend the Substatements of =E2=80=9Cdevite=E2=80=9D to ad=
d =E2=80=9Dwhen=E2=80=9D, what=E2=80=99s
> yours opinion, please help to share, thanks.
>
>
>
> Thanks & regards
>
>
>
> Walker (Guangying zheng)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Andy
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> netmod mailing list
> netmod@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
>
>
>

--001a113fb18aeea33a0549224822
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 10:02 PM, Zhengguangying (Walker) <span dir=3D"=
ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zhengguangying@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">zhe=
ngguangying@huawei.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1=
ex">





<div lang=3D"ZH-CN" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_5735020813911599949WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#44546a">Hi Andy,<u=
></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#44546a"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#44546a">=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0Thanks for your reply, my mean is not make the =E2=80=9CDeviation=
s be conditional=E2=80=9D, but want to add =E2=80=9Cwhen=E2=80=9D statement=
s to exist module definition,=C2=A0
 because vendor may cannot support all specifications defined in IETF-YANG =
but need to add some constrains.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#44546a"><u></u>=C2=
=A0</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>YANG deviations =
do not support when-stmt at all.</div><div>You can add and delete must-stmt=
s (but not replace them</div><div>(replace can be done with delate + add).<=
/div><div><br></div><div>You cannot add, delete, or replace a when-stmt.</d=
iv><div>Add is not allowed since only 1 when-stmt per data node is permitte=
d.</div><div>I don&#39;t see any reason why replace and delete should have =
been left out, but they were.</div><div>I also don&#39;t get why it is safe=
 to replace the type-stmt but not the status-stmt.</div><div>Lots of restri=
ctions on deviations are hard to understand.</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=
=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;borde=
r-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"ZH-CN" link=3D"blue" v=
link=3D"purple"><div class=3D"m_5735020813911599949WordSection1"><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&=
quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#44546a"><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#44546a">Thanks &am=
p; Regards<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#44546a"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideog=
raph"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Cali=
bri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Walker (Guangying zheng)<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#44546a"><u></u>=C2=
=A0</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Andy</div><div>=
=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"ZH-CN" link=3D"blue=
" vlink=3D"purple"><div class=3D"m_5735020813911599949WordSection1"><p clas=
s=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#44546a"><u></u></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#44546a"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;"> Andy Bierman [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:andy@yumaworks=
.com" target=3D"_blank">andy@yumaworks.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 2017</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">=E5=B9=B4</span><s=
pan lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;=
,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">2</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">=E6=9C=88=
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tah=
oma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">22</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt"=
>=E6=97=A5</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family=
:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">
 3:24<br>
<b>To:</b> Zhengguangying (Walker)<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:netmod@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">netmod@ietf=
.org</a>; Qudan (Beijing-NOS); Guopeipei (Peipei Guo); Yangang<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [netmod] Hi all, one issue about YANG deviate&#39;s Sub=
statements<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 12:32 A=
M, Zhengguangying (Walker) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zhengguangying@huawei.com"=
 target=3D"_blank">zhengguangying@huawei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></=
span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideog=
raph"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Cali=
bri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Hi all,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideog=
raph"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Cali=
bri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideog=
raph"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Cali=
bri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">=C2=A0 When we define YANG models, there =
has one issue about =E2=80=9C</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size=
:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">deviate&#39;s
 Substatements=E2=80=9D</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5p=
t;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideog=
raph"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Time=
s New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot=
;"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideog=
raph"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Cali=
bri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">=C2=A0 In section
</span><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Courier New&quot;;color:#000032">7.20.3.2.=C2=A0 The &quot;deviate&quot; St=
atement given the
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Courier New&quot;">Substatements supported, but =E2=80=9Cwhen=E2=80=9D not=
 there.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&q=
uot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:85.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">config=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 | 7.21.1=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
 | 0..1=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 |</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-se=
rif&quot;"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 | default=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 | 7.6.4, 7.7.4 | 0..n=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 |=
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 | mandatory=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 | =
7.6.5=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 | 0..1=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 |</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5p=
t;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 | max-elements | 7.7.6=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 | 0..1=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 |</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-famil=
y:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 | min-elements | 7.7.5=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 | 0..1=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 |</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-famil=
y:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 | must=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 | 7.5.3=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
| 0..n=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 |</span><span lang=3D"EN-U=
S" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-ser=
if&quot;"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 | type=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 | 7.4=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 | 0..1=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 |</span><span la=
ng=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quo=
t;sans-serif&quot;"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 | unique=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 | 7.8.3=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 | 0..n=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 |</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"=
font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><u=
></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 | units=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 | 7.3.3=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 | 0..1=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 |</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" sty=
le=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quo=
t;"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 +--------------+--------------<w=
br>+-------------+</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;fon=
t-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><u></u><u></u></span><=
/p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideog=
raph"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Cali=
bri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Now, we have the scenario to
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cou=
rier New&quot;">add =E2=80=9Cwhen=E2=80=9D constrains when deviate the exis=
ted YANG module, how I can do it?
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideog=
raph"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><u></u><u></u></spa=
n></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">You cannot add when-stmts to de=
viations.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">It is not supported.=C2=A0 Devi=
ations cannot be conditional.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideog=
raph"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;">May be it need extend the Substatements of =E2=80=9Cdevite=
=E2=80=9D to add =E2=80=9Dwhen=E2=80=9D, what=E2=80=99s yours opinion, plea=
se help to share,
 thanks.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&=
quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideog=
raph"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Time=
s New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot=
;"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideog=
raph"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cour=
ier New&quot;">Thanks &amp; regards</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"fon=
t-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><u></=
u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideog=
raph"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Time=
s New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot=
;"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideog=
raph"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Cali=
bri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Walker (Guangying zheng)<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideog=
raph"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Time=
s New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot=
;"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align:justify;text-justify:inter-ideog=
raph"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Time=
s New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">=C2=A0</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" styl=
e=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot=
;"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Andy<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
<br>
______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
netmod mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:netmod@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">netmod@ietf.org</a><br=
>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod" target=3D"_blank">=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/<wbr>listinfo/netmod</a><u></u><u></u></span><=
/p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--001a113fb18aeea33a0549224822--


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From: Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>
To: "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: draft netmod charter update proposal
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From: Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>
To: "draft-ietf-netmod-syslog-model@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-netmod-syslog-model@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [netmod] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-netmod-syslog-model-11
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Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2017 03:45:31 +0000
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Subject: Re: [netmod] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-netmod-syslog-model-11
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From nobody Thu Feb 23 00:21:05 2017
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To: jsonrpc-dev@lists.opendaylight.org
From: Anton Ivanov <anton.ivanov@kot-begemot.co.uk>
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Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2017 08:20:45 +0000
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Subject: [netmod] OpenDaylight JSON RPC 2.0 Initial commit announcement
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Good morning all,

We have pushed the code for the JSON RPC 2.0 ODL extension into the 
OpenDaylight code repository. Apologies for the delay - this was 
intended for OpenDaylight Boron, but had to be delayed for reasons 
outside our control.

This extension implements (and extends) RFC 7951 in a remote procedure 
call and notification context.

The spec for the yang modelling of JSON RPC 2.0 is written as an IETF 
draft and its first version is at: 
https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-yang-json-rpc-00.txt (cc-ing the 
netmod@ietf.org list so we can start the discussion on the spec as 
well). It covers a number of aspects not covered in RFC 7951 which show 
up when you try to use JSON in an RPC and notification context 
(especially versus existing code).

The code to match the spec is at https://git.opendaylight.org/gerrit/jsonrpc

Any code or use specific questions - please take them to the jsonrpc-dev 
opendaylight mailing list.

Best Regards,

A.


From nobody Thu Feb 23 11:11:09 2017
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From: Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>
To: Alexander Clemm <alexander.clemm@huawei.com>, "draft-ietf-netmod-syslog-model@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-netmod-syslog-model@ietf.org>
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From: Alexander Clemm <alexander.clemm@huawei.com>
To: Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>, "draft-ietf-netmod-syslog-model@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-netmod-syslog-model@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [netmod] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-netmod-syslog-model-11
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Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2017 22:09:34 +0000
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From: Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>
To: Alexander Clemm <alexander.clemm@huawei.com>, "draft-ietf-netmod-syslog-model@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-netmod-syslog-model@ietf.org>
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From: Alexander Clemm <alexander.clemm@huawei.com>
To: Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>, "draft-ietf-netmod-syslog-model@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-netmod-syslog-model@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [netmod] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-netmod-syslog-model-11
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From: Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>
To: Alexander Clemm <alexander.clemm@huawei.com>, "draft-ietf-netmod-syslog-model@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-netmod-syslog-model@ietf.org>
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From: Alexander Clemm <alexander.clemm@huawei.com>
To: Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>, "draft-ietf-netmod-syslog-model@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-netmod-syslog-model@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [netmod] WG Last Call for draft-ietf-netmod-syslog-model-11
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--_000_644DA50AFA8C314EA9BDDAC83BD38A2E0DF81CF7SJCEML703CHMchi_--


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From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
To: "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: notifications2, new draft    (was RE: [netmod] notifications...and yang-next)
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Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2017 17:22:39 +0000
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Cc: "Tim Jenkins \(timjenki\)" <timjenki@cisco.com>
Subject: [netmod] notifications2, new draft    (was RE:  notifications...and yang-next)
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Alex, Tim, Andy, & I have posted at new draft at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-voit-netmod-yang-notifications2-00=20

Explored here are notification capabilities beyond RFC-7950 section 7.16:

* what are the set of transport agnostic header objects which might be usef=
ul within a YANG notification

* how might a set of YANG notifications be bundled for bulk transport.

* how do you query the originator of a notification to troubleshoot element=
s of this process.

Any feedback would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Eric

> From: netmod, January 25, 2017 8:53 PM
> Subject: Re: [netmod] notifications...and yang-next
>=20
>=20
> The NETCONF and NETMOD chairs are actively discussing how we might move
> content around between drafts maintained by the two groups.  Resolving th=
is
> notification statement issue is part of that.  Here are some of my though=
ts
> about this:
>=20
> 1) I think that YANG is primarily used to define the notification's data =
tree, the
> payload, which may be wrapped by a protocol-specific envelop that include=
s,
> for instance, a timestamp.  This being the case, I'm hoping that there is=
n't much
> to do here.
>=20
> 2) Yes, RFC 7950 references RFC 5277, but note that it does so only in a =
section
> called "NETCONF XML Encoding Rules".  It is my hope that we will move all
> such sections out in the next revision RFC 7950 (see
> https://github.com/netmod-wg/yang-next/issues/11)
>=20
> 3) Above and beyond the notification statement issue, Lada also notes tha=
t RFC
> 7950 Section 3 references RFC 6241 for some terms.  I believe that, in or=
der to
> remove these normative references to 6241, these terms should be moved to
> the revised-datastore draft (see https://github.com/netmod-wg/yang-
> next/issues/12).
>=20
> Thoughts?
>=20
>=20
> Kent // mostly as a contributor
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> netmod mailing list
> netmod@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod


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To: "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>
From: Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com>
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Subject: [netmod] RFC 7950 - Import without revision
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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in RFC 7950, The last paragraph, section 5.1.1 "Import and Include by 
Revision" states:

"If a module is not imported with a specific revision, it is 
undefined which revision is used."

But I was wondering if the above text is misleading, since section 
5.6.5: "Implementing a Module" has the following two paragraphs:

    If a server implements a module A that imports a module C without
    specifying the revision date of module C and the server does not
    implement C (e.g., if C only defines some typedefs), the server MUST
    list module C in the "/modules-state/module" list from
    "ietf-yang-library" [RFC7895 <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7895>], and it MUST set the leaf
    "conformance-type" to "import" for this module.

    If a server lists a module C in the "/modules-state/module" list from
    "ietf-yang-library" and there are other modules Ms listed that import
    C without specifying the revision date of module C, the server MUST
    use the definitions from the most recent revision of C listed for
    modules Ms.

    The reason for these rules is that clients need to be able to know
    the specific data model structure and types of all leafs and
    leaf-lists implemented in a server.

This seems to imply that import without specifying the revision would 
mean that the latest revision listed in ietf-yang-library must be the 
one that is imported.  Is that correct, or am I misinterpreting the 
text?  Hence, should the last paragraph of section 5.1.1 be deleted?

Thanks,
Rob

--------------01849E0A3855629965AB3EE0
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<html>
  <head>

    <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
  </head>
  <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
    <p>in RFC 7950, The last paragraph, section 5.1.1 "Import and
      Include by Revision" states:</p>
    <pre><tt>"I</tt><tt>f a module is not imported with a specific revision, it is undefined</tt><tt>
</tt><tt> which revision is used.</tt><tt>"</tt></pre>
    <p>But I was wondering if the above text is misleading, since
      section 5.6.5: "Implementing a Module" has the following two
      paragraphs:</p>
    <pre class="newpage" style="font-size: 13.3333px; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">   If a server implements a module A that imports a module C without
   specifying the revision date of module C and the server does not
   implement C (e.g., if C only defines some typedefs), the server MUST
   list module C in the "/modules-state/module" list from
   "ietf-yang-library" [<a href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7895" title="&quot;YANG Module Library&quot;">RFC7895</a>], and it MUST set the leaf
   "conformance-type" to "import" for this module.

   If a server lists a module C in the "/modules-state/module" list from
   "ietf-yang-library" and there are other modules Ms listed that import
   C without specifying the revision date of module C, the server MUST
   use the definitions from the most recent revision of C listed for
   modules Ms.

   The reason for these rules is that clients need to be able to know
   the specific data model structure and types of all leafs and
   leaf-lists implemented in a server.

</pre>
    This seems to imply that import without specifying the revision
    would mean that the latest revision listed in ietf-yang-library must
    be the one that is imported.  Is that correct, or am I
    misinterpreting the text?  Hence, should the last paragraph of
    section 5.1.1 be deleted?<br>
    <br>
    Thanks,<br>
    Rob<br>
  </body>
</html>

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To: Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>, "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>, "netmod-chairs@ietf.org" <netmod-chairs@ietf.org>
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From: Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com>
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Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2017 17:53:29 +0000
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Subject: Re: [netmod] draft netmod charter update proposal
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Hi Kent, Lou,

I think that it might possibly be a good idea to please align the 
timelines for:

   draft-ietf-netmod-intf-ext-yang
   draft-ietf-netmod-sub-intf-vlan-yang

because I think that it will be somewhat helpful to review both 
documents together.

Also, I just wanted to confirm that the datastore work is covered by 
this text:

    c) Maintaining a conceptual framework in which YANG models are used.
       This effort entails describing the context that network management
       protocols (e.g., NETCONF, RESTCONF, CoAP, etc.) operate in, and
       how certain YANG statements interact in that context.

Thanks,
Rob


On 23/02/2017 00:25, Kent Watsen wrote:
> Hi NETMOD WG,
>
> Please find below the draft charter update which we provided to
> our AD for review.  Comments are welcomed.  Authors, please note
> the milestone dates.
>
> Kent (and Lou)
>
>
>
>
> Network Modeling (NETMOD)
> -------------------------
>
> Charter
>
> Current Status: Active
>
> Chairs:
>     Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
>     Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>
>
> Operations and Management Area Directors:
>     Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
>     Joel Jaeggli <joelja@bogus.com>
>
> Operations and Management Area Advisor:
>     Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
>
> Secretary:
>     Zitao (Michael) Wang <wangzitao@huawei.com>
>
> Mailing Lists:
>     General Discussion: netmod@ietf.org
>     To Subscribe:       https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
>     Archive:            https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/netmod/
>
> Description of Working Group:
>
>     The Network Modeling (NETMOD) working group is responsible for the YANG
>     data modeling language, and guidelines for developing YANG models.  The
>     NETMOD working group addresses general topics related to the use of the
>     YANG language and YANG models, for example, the mapping of YANG modeled
>     data into various encodings.  Finally, the NETMOD working group also
>     defines core YANG models used as basic YANG building blocks, and YANG
>     models that do not otherwise fall under the charter of any other IETF
>     working group.
>    
> The NETMOD WG is responsible for:
>
>     a) Maintaining the data modeling language YANG.  This effort entails
>        periodically updating the specification to address new requirements
>        as they arise.
>
>     b) Maintaining the guidelines for developing YANG models.  This effort
>        is primarily driven by updates made to the YANG specification.
>
>     c) Maintaining a conceptual framework in which YANG models are used.
>        This effort entails describing the context that network management
>        protocols (e.g., NETCONF, RESTCONF, CoAP, etc.) operate in, and
>        how certain YANG statements interact in that context.
>
>     d) Maintaining encodings for YANG modeled data.  This effort entails
>        updating encodings already defined by the NETMOD working (XML and
>        JSON) to accommodate changes to the YANG specification, and defining
>        new encodings that are needed and yet do not fall under the charter
>        of any other active IETF working group.
>
>     e) Maintaining YANG models used as basic YANG building blocks.  This
>        effort entails updating existing YANG models (ietf-yang-types and
>        ietf-inet-types) as needed, as well as defining additional core YANG
>        data models when necessary.
>
>     f) Defining and maintaining YANG models that do not fall under the
>        charter of any other active IETF working group.
>
>     The NETMOD working group consults with the NETCONF working group to
>     ensure that new requirements are and understood and can be met by
>     the protocols developed within that working group (e.g., NETCONF
>     and RESTCONF).  The NETMOD working group coordinates with other
>     working groups on possible extensions to YANG to address new modeling
>     requirements and, when needed, which group will run the process on a
>     specific model.
>
>     The NETMOD working group does not serve as a review team for YANG
>     modules developed by other working groups. Instead, the YANG doctors,
>     as organized by the OPS area director responsible for network
>     management, will act as advisors for other working groups and provide
>     YANG reviews for the OPS area directors.
>
> Milestones:
>    
>     Done     - Submit draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6087bis to IESG for publication
>     Mar 2016 - Submit draft-ietf-netmod-yang-model-classification to IESG
>                for publication
>     Mar 2016 - Submit draft-ietf-netmod-syslog-model to IESG for publication
>     Mar 2016 - Submit draft-ietf-netmod-acl-model to IESG for publication
>     Mar 2017 - Submit draft-ietf-netmod-entity to IESG for publication
>     Oct 2017 - Submit draft-ietf-netmod-intf-ext-yang to IESG for
>                publication
>     Oct 2017 - Submit draft-ietf-netmod-schema-mount to IESG for publication
>     Oct 2017 - Submit draft-ietf-netmod-revised-datastores to IESG for
>                publication
>     Dec 2017 - Submit draft-ietf-netmod-sub-intf-vlan-yang to IESG for
>                publication
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> netmod mailing list
> netmod@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
> .
>


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From: Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>
To: Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com>, "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>, "netmod-chairs@ietf.org" <netmod-chairs@ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/uw3FmubF_GJtnlSuYMLMUinNARA>
Cc: netmod-chairs@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [netmod] draft netmod charter update proposal
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Hi Kent, Lou,

>   c) Maintaining a conceptual framework in which YANG models are used.
>      This effort entails describing the context that network management
>      protocols (e.g., NETCONF, RESTCONF, CoAP, etc.) operate in, and
>      how certain YANG statements interact in that context.

The point above sounds a bit vague and can be interpreted wrongly.
What exactly is meant by "the context that network management protocols
operate in"?

Actually since 2002, NETCONF WG is responsible to specify the configuration
protocols and the context and framework where they operate in.
I assume you rather mean bringing YANG and the protocols using it into
relation or showing how YANG is used together with a protocol, or?
To make it more clear please elaborate what exactly is in-scope and what is
out-of-scope.

We were discussing to specify the YANG language as generic as possible to be
used by many protocols and with this to remove NETCONF specific details.
If this is still the aim, we should add a statement on this.

I have to admit I found the old charter format, where current and planned WG
items are described, as very purposeful.
IOW I am missing a short target description of WG items and how they map to
the high-level descriptions in a)-f).
The draft titles in Milestones are unfortunately not very descriptive.

Thank you for your efforts,
Mehmet

> -----Original Message-----
> From: netmod [mailto:netmod-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Kent Watsen
> Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2017 1:25 AM
> To: netmod@ietf.org
> Cc: netmod-chairs@ietf.org
> Subject: [netmod] draft netmod charter update proposal
> 
> 
> Hi NETMOD WG,
> 
> Please find below the draft charter update which we provided to our AD for
> review.  Comments are welcomed.  Authors, please note the milestone
> dates.
> 
> Kent (and Lou)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Network Modeling (NETMOD)
> -------------------------
> 
> Charter
> 
> Current Status: Active
> 
> Chairs:
>    Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
>    Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>
> 
> Operations and Management Area Directors:
>    Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
>    Joel Jaeggli <joelja@bogus.com>
> 
> Operations and Management Area Advisor:
>    Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
> 
> Secretary:
>    Zitao (Michael) Wang <wangzitao@huawei.com>
> 
> Mailing Lists:
>    General Discussion: netmod@ietf.org
>    To Subscribe:       https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
>    Archive:            https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/netmod/
> 
> Description of Working Group:
> 
>    The Network Modeling (NETMOD) working group is responsible for the
> YANG
>    data modeling language, and guidelines for developing YANG models.  The
>    NETMOD working group addresses general topics related to the use of the
>    YANG language and YANG models, for example, the mapping of YANG
> modeled
>    data into various encodings.  Finally, the NETMOD working group also
>    defines core YANG models used as basic YANG building blocks, and YANG
>    models that do not otherwise fall under the charter of any other IETF
>    working group.
> 
> The NETMOD WG is responsible for:
> 
>    a) Maintaining the data modeling language YANG.  This effort entails
>       periodically updating the specification to address new requirements
>       as they arise.
> 
>    b) Maintaining the guidelines for developing YANG models.  This effort
>       is primarily driven by updates made to the YANG specification.
> 
>    c) Maintaining a conceptual framework in which YANG models are used.
>       This effort entails describing the context that network management
>       protocols (e.g., NETCONF, RESTCONF, CoAP, etc.) operate in, and
>       how certain YANG statements interact in that context.
> 
>    d) Maintaining encodings for YANG modeled data.  This effort entails
>       updating encodings already defined by the NETMOD working (XML and
>       JSON) to accommodate changes to the YANG specification, and defining
>       new encodings that are needed and yet do not fall under the charter
>       of any other active IETF working group.
> 
>    e) Maintaining YANG models used as basic YANG building blocks.  This
>       effort entails updating existing YANG models (ietf-yang-types and
>       ietf-inet-types) as needed, as well as defining additional core YANG
>       data models when necessary.
> 
>    f) Defining and maintaining YANG models that do not fall under the
>       charter of any other active IETF working group.
> 
>    The NETMOD working group consults with the NETCONF working group to
>    ensure that new requirements are and understood and can be met by
>    the protocols developed within that working group (e.g., NETCONF
>    and RESTCONF).  The NETMOD working group coordinates with other
>    working groups on possible extensions to YANG to address new modeling
>    requirements and, when needed, which group will run the process on a
>    specific model.
> 
>    The NETMOD working group does not serve as a review team for YANG
>    modules developed by other working groups. Instead, the YANG doctors,
>    as organized by the OPS area director responsible for network
>    management, will act as advisors for other working groups and provide
>    YANG reviews for the OPS area directors.
> 
> Milestones:
> 
>    Done     - Submit draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6087bis to IESG for publication
>    Mar 2016 - Submit draft-ietf-netmod-yang-model-classification to IESG
>               for publication
>    Mar 2016 - Submit draft-ietf-netmod-syslog-model to IESG for
publication
>    Mar 2016 - Submit draft-ietf-netmod-acl-model to IESG for publication
>    Mar 2017 - Submit draft-ietf-netmod-entity to IESG for publication
>    Oct 2017 - Submit draft-ietf-netmod-intf-ext-yang to IESG for
>               publication
>    Oct 2017 - Submit draft-ietf-netmod-schema-mount to IESG for
publication
>    Oct 2017 - Submit draft-ietf-netmod-revised-datastores to IESG for
>               publication
>    Dec 2017 - Submit draft-ietf-netmod-sub-intf-vlan-yang to IESG for
>               publication
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> netmod mailing list
> netmod@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod


From nobody Mon Feb 27 13:42:02 2017
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To: Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>, Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com>, "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>, "netmod-chairs@ietf.org" <netmod-chairs@ietf.org>
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From: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/U50vUtDX1GyH25wEFDpeWHhufKM>
Subject: Re: [netmod] draft netmod charter update proposal
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Hi Rob,


On 2/27/2017 3:31 PM, Kent Watsen wrote:
> Hi Rob,
>
>
>> Hi Kent, Lou,
>>
>> I think that it might possibly be a good idea to please align the 
>> timelines for:
>>
>>   draft-ietf-netmod-intf-ext-yang
>>   draft-ietf-netmod-sub-intf-vlan-yang
>>
>> because I think that it will be somewhat helpful to review both 
>> documents together.
> Can you provide dates you think we can commit to?
>
>
>> Also, I just wanted to confirm that the datastore work is covered by 
>> this text:
>>
>>    c) Maintaining a conceptual framework in which YANG models are used.
>>       This effort entails describing the context that network management
>>       protocols (e.g., NETCONF, RESTCONF, CoAP, etc.) operate in, and
>>       how certain YANG statements interact in that context.
> Yes indeed, or at least, that was the intention.  Here "conceptual framework"
> and "context" are meant to be more all-encompassing than just the datastores
> effort.  Makes sense, or needs clarification?

Does this help?

  c) Maintaining a conceptual framework in which YANG models are
     used.  This effort entails describing the generic context in
     which YANG exists and how certain YANG statements interact in
     that context. An example of this is YANG's relationship with
     datastores.

Lou


>
>
> Thanks,
> Kent // co-chair
>
>
>
>


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From: Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>
To: Mehmet Ersue <mersue@gmail.com>, "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [netmod] draft netmod charter update proposal
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From nobody Tue Feb 28 01:40:45 2017
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To: NETMOD Working Group <netmod@ietf.org>
From: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
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Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2017 10:40:33 +0100
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Subject: [netmod] Toolchain upgraded to yangdump-pro 16.10-5
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Dear all,

See http://www.claise.be/IETFYANGPageCompilation.html
At least two bugs related to the IETF YANG modules are fixed.
Please check your YANG modules.

Regards, Benoit


From nobody Tue Feb 28 04:57:21 2017
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From: Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz>
To: Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>, "netmod\@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [netmod] draft netmod charter update proposal
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Hi,

the term "encoding" is somewhat misleading because in other contexts it
is used in the sense of a serialization format (e.g. character encoding)
whereas in our case XML, JSON, CBOR etc. each carry slightly different
information.

Even though some NETMOD RFCs have already used "encoding", I would
suggest to break with this tradition and use "representation"
instead. The latter term is already well established in HTTP/REST and
its meaning perfectly fits our purposes:

https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7231#section-3

Lada

Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net> writes:

> Hi NETMOD WG,
>
> Please find below the draft charter update which we provided to
> our AD for review.  Comments are welcomed.  Authors, please note
> the milestone dates.
>
> Kent (and Lou)
>
>
>
>
> Network Modeling (NETMOD)  
> -------------------------
>
> Charter
>
> Current Status: Active
>
> Chairs:
>    Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
>    Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>
>
> Operations and Management Area Directors:
>    Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
>    Joel Jaeggli <joelja@bogus.com>
>
> Operations and Management Area Advisor:
>    Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
>
> Secretary:
>    Zitao (Michael) Wang <wangzitao@huawei.com>
>
> Mailing Lists:
>    General Discussion: netmod@ietf.org
>    To Subscribe:       https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
>    Archive:            https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/netmod/
>
> Description of Working Group:
>
>    The Network Modeling (NETMOD) working group is responsible for the YANG
>    data modeling language, and guidelines for developing YANG models.  The
>    NETMOD working group addresses general topics related to the use of the
>    YANG language and YANG models, for example, the mapping of YANG modeled
>    data into various encodings.  Finally, the NETMOD working group also
>    defines core YANG models used as basic YANG building blocks, and YANG
>    models that do not otherwise fall under the charter of any other IETF
>    working group.
>   
> The NETMOD WG is responsible for:
>
>    a) Maintaining the data modeling language YANG.  This effort entails
>       periodically updating the specification to address new requirements
>       as they arise.
>
>    b) Maintaining the guidelines for developing YANG models.  This effort
>       is primarily driven by updates made to the YANG specification.
>
>    c) Maintaining a conceptual framework in which YANG models are used.
>       This effort entails describing the context that network management
>       protocols (e.g., NETCONF, RESTCONF, CoAP, etc.) operate in, and
>       how certain YANG statements interact in that context.
>
>    d) Maintaining encodings for YANG modeled data.  This effort entails
>       updating encodings already defined by the NETMOD working (XML and
>       JSON) to accommodate changes to the YANG specification, and defining
>       new encodings that are needed and yet do not fall under the charter
>       of any other active IETF working group.
>
>    e) Maintaining YANG models used as basic YANG building blocks.  This
>       effort entails updating existing YANG models (ietf-yang-types and
>       ietf-inet-types) as needed, as well as defining additional core YANG
>       data models when necessary.
>
>    f) Defining and maintaining YANG models that do not fall under the
>       charter of any other active IETF working group.
>
>    The NETMOD working group consults with the NETCONF working group to
>    ensure that new requirements are and understood and can be met by
>    the protocols developed within that working group (e.g., NETCONF
>    and RESTCONF).  The NETMOD working group coordinates with other
>    working groups on possible extensions to YANG to address new modeling
>    requirements and, when needed, which group will run the process on a
>    specific model.
>
>    The NETMOD working group does not serve as a review team for YANG
>    modules developed by other working groups. Instead, the YANG doctors,
>    as organized by the OPS area director responsible for network
>    management, will act as advisors for other working groups and provide
>    YANG reviews for the OPS area directors.
>
> Milestones:
>   
>    Done     - Submit draft-ietf-netmod-rfc6087bis to IESG for publication
>    Mar 2016 - Submit draft-ietf-netmod-yang-model-classification to IESG
>               for publication
>    Mar 2016 - Submit draft-ietf-netmod-syslog-model to IESG for publication
>    Mar 2016 - Submit draft-ietf-netmod-acl-model to IESG for publication
>    Mar 2017 - Submit draft-ietf-netmod-entity to IESG for publication
>    Oct 2017 - Submit draft-ietf-netmod-intf-ext-yang to IESG for
>               publication
>    Oct 2017 - Submit draft-ietf-netmod-schema-mount to IESG for publication
>    Oct 2017 - Submit draft-ietf-netmod-revised-datastores to IESG for
>               publication
>    Dec 2017 - Submit draft-ietf-netmod-sub-intf-vlan-yang to IESG for
>               publication
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> netmod mailing list
> netmod@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod

-- 
Ladislav Lhotka, CZ.NIC Labs
PGP Key ID: 0xB8F92B08A9F76C67


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To: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>, Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>, "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>, "netmod-chairs@ietf.org" <netmod-chairs@ietf.org>
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From: Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com>
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On 27/02/2017 21:41, Lou Berger wrote:
> Hi Rob,
>
>
> On 2/27/2017 3:31 PM, Kent Watsen wrote:
>> Hi Rob,
>>
>>
>>> Hi Kent, Lou,
>>>
>>> I think that it might possibly be a good idea to please align the
>>> timelines for:
>>>
>>>    draft-ietf-netmod-intf-ext-yang
>>>    draft-ietf-netmod-sub-intf-vlan-yang
>>>
>>> because I think that it will be somewhat helpful to review both
>>> documents together.
>> Can you provide dates you think we can commit to?
>>
>>
>>> Also, I just wanted to confirm that the datastore work is covered by
>>> this text:
>>>
>>>     c) Maintaining a conceptual framework in which YANG models are used.
>>>        This effort entails describing the context that network management
>>>        protocols (e.g., NETCONF, RESTCONF, CoAP, etc.) operate in, and
>>>        how certain YANG statements interact in that context.
>> Yes indeed, or at least, that was the intention.  Here "conceptual framework"
>> and "context" are meant to be more all-encompassing than just the datastores
>> effort.  Makes sense, or needs clarification?
> Does this help?
>
>    c) Maintaining a conceptual framework in which YANG models are
>       used.  This effort entails describing the generic context in
>       which YANG exists and how certain YANG statements interact in
>       that context. An example of this is YANG's relationship with
>       datastores.
Yes, I think that this text is better.

Thanks,
Rob


>
> Lou
>
>
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Kent // co-chair
>>
>>
>>
>>
> .
>


From nobody Tue Feb 28 08:21:55 2017
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To: Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>, "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>, "netmod-chairs@ietf.org" <netmod-chairs@ietf.org>
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From: Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [netmod] draft netmod charter update proposal
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On 27/02/2017 20:31, Kent Watsen wrote:
> Hi Rob,
>
>
>> Hi Kent, Lou,
>>
>> I think that it might possibly be a good idea to please align the
>> timelines for:
>>
>>    draft-ietf-netmod-intf-ext-yang
>>    draft-ietf-netmod-sub-intf-vlan-yang
>>
>> because I think that it will be somewhat helpful to review both
>> documents together.
> Can you provide dates you think we can commit to?
Please can you align them both to the Dec '17 date.

That would also give a clear run for schema mount and revised datastores 
in Oct '17.

Thanks,
Rob


>
>
>> Also, I just wanted to confirm that the datastore work is covered by
>> this text:
>>
>>     c) Maintaining a conceptual framework in which YANG models are used.
>>        This effort entails describing the context that network management
>>        protocols (e.g., NETCONF, RESTCONF, CoAP, etc.) operate in, and
>>        how certain YANG statements interact in that context.
> Yes indeed, or at least, that was the intention.  Here "conceptual framework"
> and "context" are meant to be more all-encompassing than just the datastores
> effort.  Makes sense, or needs clarification?
>
>
> Thanks,
> Kent // co-chair
>
>
>
>


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From: Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>
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Thread-Topic: [netmod] draft netmod charter update proposal
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