From nobody Wed Feb 5 12:41:56 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietf.org Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C913120824; Wed, 5 Feb 2020 12:41:54 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Meeting Session Request Tool To: Cc: netmod-chairs@ietf.org, ibagdona@gmail.com, kent+ietf@watsen.net, netmod@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.116.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <158093531407.12827.6547324858132241619.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2020 12:41:54 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [netmod] netmod - Update to a Meeting Session Request for IETF 107 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Feb 2020 20:41:54 -0000 An update to a meeting session request has just been submitted by Kent Watsen, a Chair of the netmod working group. --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: Network Modeling Area Name: Operations and Management Area Session Requester: Kent Watsen Number of Sessions: 2 Length of Session(s): 2 Hours, 1 Hour Number of Attendees: 100 Conflicts to Avoid: Chair Conflict: netconf Technology Overlap: rtgwg i2rs teas Key Participant Conflict: saag People who must be present: Lou Berger Joel Jaeggli Kent Watsen Ignas Bagdonas Robert Wilton Resources Requested: Special Requests: Please place the first session in the first half of the week (i.e., M-W). --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Sun Feb 9 01:19:01 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBC4A120058; 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Sun, 9 Feb 2020 09:18:50 +0000 From: Hongji Zhao To: Benoit Claise CC: "netmod@ietf.org" , Alvaro Retana , "pim-chairs@ietf.org" , Xufeng Liu , "draft-ietf-pim-igmp-mld-snooping-yang@ietf.org" , "ibagdona@gmail.com" Thread-Topic: Hi Benoit. I am the author of draft-ietf-pim-igmp-mld-snooping-yang. Now datatracker shows YANG validation errors, and it augments IEEE YANG model. Could you please help me how to deal with them? Thanks a lot! Thread-Index: AdXfKF+4HqQo3AynShqa+4tkUoSoyQ== Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2020 09:18:50 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=hongji.zhao@ericsson.com; x-originating-ip: [120.244.62.150] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 668a7728-8254-4424-c4af-08d7ad41134b x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: VE1SPR01MB0008: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:9508; x-forefront-prvs: 0308EE423E x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10009020)(4636009)(366004)(396003)(376002)(346002)(39860400002)(136003)(199004)(189003)(9326002)(66476007)(64756008)(966005)(66556008)(66446008)(478600001)(7696005)(55016002)(9686003)(6916009)(2906002)(5660300002)(44832011)(76116006)(52536014)(66946007)(316002)(54906003)(8936002)(8676002)(81156014)(81166006)(26005)(86362001)(6506007)(33656002)(4326008)(186003)(71200400001)(182903001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:VE1SPR01MB0008; H:HE1PR07MB3148.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: ericsson.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata: QsgxVjenpBblywt6v59Ej/p5L6oATpneBCdq52yc6MYzTWWGe0WnqHJ3b4lgZfeHQnaeCoDzLBt3HRN95bB2EreQaqltWUQx1ktvr9asaN2unO3WhSoSRO2/qZQCeS1Y4iSmr2jxMus8rLp6XZ4stQ== x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_HE1PR07MB3148E2D48C70155648CBC4F7961E0HE1PR07MB3148eurp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: ericsson.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 668a7728-8254-4424-c4af-08d7ad41134b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 09 Feb 2020 09:18:50.3667 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: +iIIAQx/hfsTIlyVIuEtlFbQrcmwJAwkQlksWCl5RT9oHmAnGaPY0d9UYg1ccKY/Liw91bJXfg+1gtohmiImQWnd5UaJNBc5Rrf6TcfYqsg= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: VE1SPR01MB0008 Archived-At: Subject: [netmod] Hi Benoit. I am the author of draft-ietf-pim-igmp-mld-snooping-yang. Now datatracker shows YANG validation errors, and it augments IEEE YANG model. Could you please help me how to deal with them? Thanks a lot! X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2020 09:18:59 -0000 --_000_HE1PR07MB3148E2D48C70155648CBC4F7961E0HE1PR07MB3148eurp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Benoit, The draft-ietf-pim-igmp-mld-snooping-yang is about IGMP & MLD Snooping yang= module. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-pim-igmp-mld-snooping-yang/ 1) Now this draft has passed WGLC, but datatracker is still showing several= YANG Validation errors. It's saying it can't find the ietf-l2vpn, ietf-pse= udowires, ieee802-dot1q-bridge module. It was suggested that the errors are a tool issue. How to deal with it= ? 2) This draft imports and augments an IEEE YANG model (ieee802-dot1q-bridge= module). Is there any specific process we need to follow when augments an = IEEE YANG model? Thanks a lot! ***************************************************************************= ****************************************************************** Error details: draft-ietf-pim-igmp-mld-snooping-yang-09.txt: xym 0.4: Extracting 'ietf-igmp-mld-snooping' Getting YANG file name from module name: ietf-igmp-mld-snooping.yang Removed 10 empty lines ietf-igmp-mld-snooping@2019-06-04.yang: pyang 2.1.1: pyang --verbose --ietf -p {libs} {model}: # read ietf-igmp-mld-snooping@2019-06-04.yang (CL) # read /a/www/ietf-datatracker/6.117.0/env/share/yang/modules/ietf/ietf-ine= t-types.yang # read /a/www/ietf-ftp/yang/draftmod/ietf-inet-types@2019-11-04.yang # read /a/www/ietf-datatracker/6.117.0/env/share/yang/modules/ietf/ietf-yan= g-types.yang # read /a/www/ietf-ftp/yang/draftmod/ietf-yang-types@2019-11-04.yang # read /a/www/ietf-datatracker/6.117.0/env/share/yang/modules/ietf/ietf-int= erfaces.yang # read /a/www/ietf-ftp/yang/rfcmod/ietf-interfaces@2018-02-20.yang # read /a/www/ietf-datatracker/6.117.0/env/share/yang/modules/ietf/ietf-rou= ting.yang # read /a/www/ietf-ftp/yang/rfcmod/ietf-routing@2018-03-13.yang # read /a/www/ietf-datatracker/6.117.0/env/share/yang/modules/ietf/ietf-rou= ting-types.yang # read /a/www/ietf-ftp/yang/rfcmod/ietf-routing-types@2017-12-04.yang # read /a/www/ietf-datatracker/6.117.0/env/share/yang/modules/ietf/ietf-net= work-instance.yang # read /a/www/ietf-ftp/yang/rfcmod/ietf-network-instance@2019-01-21.yang # read /a/www/ietf-datatracker/6.117.0/env/share/yang/modules/ietf/ietf-ip.= yang # read /a/www/ietf-ftp/yang/rfcmod/ietf-ip@2018-02-22.yang # read /a/www/ietf-datatracker/6.117.0/env/share/yang/modules/ietf/ietf-yan= g-schema-mount.yang # read /a/www/ietf-ftp/yang/rfcmod/ietf-yang-schema-mount@2019-01-14.yang ietf-igmp-mld-snooping@2019-06-04.yang:27: error: module "ietf-l2vpn" not f= ound in search path ietf-igmp-mld-snooping@2019-06-04.yang:34: error: module "ietf-pseudowires"= not found in search path ietf-igmp-mld-snooping@2019-06-04.yang:38: error: module "ieee802-dot1q-bri= dge" not found in search path yanglint 0.14.80: yanglint --verbose -p {rfclib} -p {draftlib} -p {tmplib} = {model} -i: err : Data model "ietf-l2vpn" not found. err : Importing "ietf-l2vpn" module into "ietf-igmp-mld-snooping" failed. err : Module "ietf-igmp-mld-snooping" parsing failed. ***************************************************************************= ****************************************************************** module ietf-igmp-mld-snooping { yang-version 1.1; namespace "urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:yang:ietf-igmp-mld-snooping"; prefix ims; import ietf-inet-types { prefix "inet"; } ... import ieee802-dot1q-bridge { prefix "dot1q"; } ... augment "/dot1q:bridges/dot1q:bridge" { description "Reference IGMP & MLD snooping instance in BRIDGE scenario"; leaf igmp-snooping-instance { type igmp-mld-snooping-instance-ref; description "Configure IGMP snooping instance under bridge view"; } leaf mld-snooping-instance { type igmp-mld-snooping-instance-ref; description "Configure MLD snooping instance under bridge view"; } } BR/Hongji --_000_HE1PR07MB3148E2D48C70155648CBC4F7961E0HE1PR07MB3148eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 

Hi Benoit,

 

The draft-ietf-pim-igmp-mld-snooping-yang is about I= GMP & MLD Snooping yang module.

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-pim-igmp= -mld-snooping-yang/

 

 

1) Now this draft has passed WGLC, but datatracker i= s still showing several YANG Validation errors. It's saying it can't find t= he ietf-l2vpn, ietf-pseudowires, ieee802-dot1q-bridge module.

   It was suggested that the errors a= re a tool issue.   How to deal with it?

 

2) This draft imports and augments an IEEE YANG mode= l (ieee802-dot1q-bridge module). Is there any specific process we need to f= ollow when augments an IEEE YANG model?

 

Thanks a lot!

 

 

****************************************************= ***************************************************************************= **************

Error details:

draft-ietf-pim-igmp-mld-snooping-yang-09.txt:

xym 0.4:

Extracting 'ietf-igmp-mld-snooping'

   Getting YANG file name from module name= : ietf-igmp-mld-snooping.yang

   Removed 10 empty lines

 

 

ietf-igmp-mld-snooping@2019-06-04.yang:

pyang 2.1.1: pyang --verbose --ietf -p {libs} {model= }:

# read ietf-igmp-mld-snooping@2019-06-04.yang (CL)

# read /a/www/ietf-datatracker/6.117.0/env/share/yan= g/modules/ietf/ietf-inet-types.yang

# read /a/www/ietf-ftp/yang/draftmod/ietf-inet-types= @2019-11-04.yang

# read /a/www/ietf-datatracker/6.117.0/env/share/yan= g/modules/ietf/ietf-yang-types.yang

# read /a/www/ietf-ftp/yang/draftmod/ietf-yang-types= @2019-11-04.yang

# read /a/www/ietf-datatracker/6.117.0/env/share/yan= g/modules/ietf/ietf-interfaces.yang

# read /a/www/ietf-ftp/yang/rfcmod/ietf-interfaces@2= 018-02-20.yang

# read /a/www/ietf-datatracker/6.117.0/env/share/yan= g/modules/ietf/ietf-routing.yang

# read /a/www/ietf-ftp/yang/rfcmod/ietf-routing@2018= -03-13.yang

# read /a/www/ietf-datatracker/6.117.0/env/share/yan= g/modules/ietf/ietf-routing-types.yang

# read /a/www/ietf-ftp/yang/rfcmod/ietf-routing-type= s@2017-12-04.yang

# read /a/www/ietf-datatracker/6.117.0/env/share/yan= g/modules/ietf/ietf-network-instance.yang

# read /a/www/ietf-ftp/yang/rfcmod/ietf-network-inst= ance@2019-01-21.yang

# read /a/www/ietf-datatracker/6.117.0/env/share/yan= g/modules/ietf/ietf-ip.yang

# read /a/www/ietf-ftp/yang/rfcmod/ietf-ip@2018-02-2= 2.yang

# read /a/www/ietf-datatracker/6.117.0/env/share/yan= g/modules/ietf/ietf-yang-schema-mount.yang

# read /a/www/ietf-ftp/yang/rfcmod/ietf-yang-schema-= mount@2019-01-14.yang

ietf-igmp-mld-snooping@2019-06-04.yang:27: error: mo= dule "ietf-l2vpn" not found in search path

ietf-igmp-mld-snooping@2019-06-04.yang:34: error: mo= dule "ietf-pseudowires" not found in search path

ietf-igmp-mld-snooping@2019-06-04.yang:38: error: mo= dule "ieee802-dot1q-bridge" not found in search path

 

yanglint 0.14.80: yanglint --verbose -p {rfclib} -p = {draftlib} -p {tmplib} {model} -i:

err : Data model "ietf-l2vpn" not found.

err : Importing "ietf-l2vpn" module into &= quot;ietf-igmp-mld-snooping" failed.

err : Module "ietf-igmp-mld-snooping" pars= ing failed.

 

****************************************************= ***************************************************************************= **************

 

module ietf-igmp-mld-snooping {

  yang-version 1.1;

  namespace "urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:yang:i= etf-igmp-mld-snooping";     

 

  prefix ims;

 

  import ietf-inet-types {

    prefix "inet";

  }

 

  ...

 

  import ieee802-dot1q-bridge {

    prefix "dot1q";&nb= sp;    

  }  

  

  ...

 

  

  augment "/dot1q:bridges/dot1q:bridg= e" {

    description

      "Reference = IGMP & MLD snooping instance in BRIDGE scenario";

   

    leaf igmp-snooping-instance = {

      type igmp-mld-snoopin= g-instance-ref;

     

      description

        &quo= t;Configure IGMP snooping instance under bridge view";

    }

    leaf mld-snooping-instance {=

      type igmp-mld-snoopin= g-instance-ref;

     

      description

        &quo= t;Configure MLD snooping instance under bridge view";

    }

  }

 

 

BR/Hongji

 

--_000_HE1PR07MB3148E2D48C70155648CBC4F7961E0HE1PR07MB3148eurp_-- From nobody Mon Feb 10 08:00:25 2020 Return-Path: <010001702b618021-ade19230-3c05-4d0f-be88-e735dad32390-000000@amazonses.watsen.net> X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77493120071; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 11:16:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=amazonses.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Drq1YysFmR6S; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 11:16:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from a48-95.smtp-out.amazonses.com (a48-95.smtp-out.amazonses.com [54.240.48.95]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7B053120047; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 11:16:16 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/simple; s=6gbrjpgwjskckoa6a5zn6fwqkn67xbtw; d=amazonses.com; t=1581275775; h=From:Message-Id:Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References:Feedback-ID; bh=ION/rCYavkkFisl7BTdCEQK1CW05wsyn/cG727jCIG4=; b=hAKb114ddsSVc/hzwk2gGGuPhqkcG2H1K9HbI4hDhYRR4jhGW9mJiDThhuUcsLYq CKSdpWXkkQmsOxAaJgsM3L7cNOaoXvI3nd14PmOrlcmOyBjaXbH1cY2FyZxRCinma5I zgcgNre9iipG/6zsk1FTLm5HSWEIE1frmn40JKmk= From: Kent Watsen Message-ID: <010001702b618021-ade19230-3c05-4d0f-be88-e735dad32390-000000@email.amazonses.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_42844381-9007-4FBA-8B0D-5AE8385ACD51" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2020 19:16:15 +0000 In-Reply-To: Cc: "netmod@ietf.org" To: draft-ietf-netmod-factory-default References: <010001700b8532d3-24b47a66-44ab-425b-a8a3-53b326a33cee-000000@email.amazonses.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-SES-Outgoing: 2020.02.09-54.240.48.95 Feedback-ID: 1.us-east-1.DKmIRZFhhsBhtmFMNikgwZUWVrODEw9qVcPhqJEI2DA=:AmazonSES Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] I-D Action: draft-ietf-netmod-factory-default-09.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2020 19:16:20 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_42844381-9007-4FBA-8B0D-5AE8385ACD51 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 [catching up on an old shepherd action item] Authors, While processing the shepherd writeup, I discovered some issues that = should be fixed before this draft is forwarded to the IESG. Please = submit an update so that I can continue the review. WG, How is it that so many issues got through the Last-Call process?! Comments by Section: 1) The abstract and Introduction both say =E2=80=9CWhen resetting a = datastore, =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D, but this isn=E2=80=99t the case anymore, = I mean, we only reset the device, right?=20 2) The Abstract says =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6datastore=E2=80=A6that contains = data that will be copied over to the running datastore at reset.=E2=80=9D = This is inconsistent with what is stated elsewhere about the contents = going into all conventional datastores. Recommendation is to instead = say that it contains the factory default configuration for the device. 3) The Introduction says "This datastore can also be used in = operation=E2=80=9D - missing the word =E2=80=9Cthe=E2=80=9D before = . 4) The Introduction=E2=80=99s 4th paragraph serves no purpose and = asymmetrically calls out NETCONF. Please delete. 6) Section 1.1 says "A read-only configuration datastore holding a = preconfigured minimal initial configuration that can be used to = initialize the configuration of a server.=E2=80=9D Remove the word = =E2=80=9Cminimal=E2=80=9D and replace =E2=80=9Ccan be=E2=80=9D with = =E2=80=9Cis=E2=80=9D. 7) Section 1.1 says "The content of the datastore is usually static, but = MAY depend on external factors like available HW.=E2=80=9D This is not = true. The contents are static, full stop. However, the application of = the contents may vary based on factors such as HW present. But since = this is always true, I recommend the entire sentence be removed. =20 8) Section 2 says "The contents of the datastore MUST be = reset back to an appropriate factory-default state.=E2=80=9D I think = words =E2=80=9Creset=E2=80=9D and "factory-default state=E2=80=9D are = misleading. Better would be to say =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6MUST reflect the = operational state of the device after applying the factory default = configuration." 9) Section 2 says =E2=80=9C...MUST restore storage to factory condition, = including remove log files, remove temporary files (from datastore or = elsewhere).=E2=80=9D This is both grammatically incorrect and = confusing. Recommend replacing with =E2=80=9C...MUST restore = non-volatile storage to factory condition. Depending on the system, = this may entail deleting dynamically generated files, such as those = containing keys (e.g., /etc/ssl/private), certificates (e.g., /etc/ssl), = and logs (e.g., /var/log), temporary files (/tmp/*). 10) After applying the fix from (9) above, the following two sentences = could be replaced with =E2=80=9CAll security sensitive data (i.e., = private keys, passwords, etc.) SHOULD be overwritten with zeros or a = pattern before deletion." 11) Section 3: "Following guidelines for defining...=E2=80=9D should be = "Following the guidelines for defining=E2=80=A6" 12) Section 3: replace 'factory-default=E2=80=99 with = "factory-default=E2=80=9D. That is, use double-quotes. The only time = single-quotes are used is when needing to quote something inside a YANG = string. 13) Section 3:apply the same change described in (6) above wrt = =E2=80=9Cminimal=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ccan be=E2=80=9D. 14) Section 3: remove the word =E2=80=9Conly=E2=80=9D from "A device MAY = only implement the RPC without implementing the = 'factory-default=E2=80=99 datastore=E2=80=9D, or replace =E2=80=9Cwithout=E2= =80=9D with =E2=80=9C, i.e., without=E2=80=9D. 15) Section 3: replace "which make it lose the ability to see what = configuration the device would be reset back to=E2=80=9D with =E2=80=9Cwhi= ch would only eliminate the ability to programmatically determine the = factory default configuration=E2=80=9D. 16) Section 3; replace "RESTCONF,the CLI etcunless=E2=80=9D with = =E2=80=9CRESTCONF, the CLI, etc. unless=E2=80=9D=20 17) Section 3 needs to also mention that , if present, is = initialized to the contents of 18) Section 3: the word =E2=80=9Cusually=E2=80=9D in the sentence "The = datastore content is usually defined by the device vendor.=E2=80=9D = Should either be removed or explained how it could ever not be the case. = (I recommend the former) 19) Section 3: apply the same change described in (7) above. 20) both of the =E2=80=98import=E2=80=99 statements are missing = =E2=80=98reference=E2=80=99 statements.=E2=80=9D 21) Section 4: the module=E2=80=99s =E2=80=9Cdescription=E2=80=9D = statement is both incomplete and hard to read. How about replacing it = with =E2=80=9CThis YANG module defines an RPC called = =E2=80=98factory-reset=E2=80=99, a datastore identity called = =E2=80=98factory-default=E2=80=99, and and identity called = 'factory-default-datastore=E2=80=99." 22) Section 4, in the "factory-reset=E2=80=9D RPC: replace = "(i.e., , ,and )=E2=80=9D with "(i.e., = , , and )=E2=80=9D. =20 23) Section 4, in the description statement for the "factory-default=E2=80= =9D identity, apply the same change from (2) above. Also, =E2=80=9Cof = the=E2=80=9D should be =E2=80=9Cof the=E2=80=9D. 24) Section 5, why are the registrations triple-spaced? 25) Section 6: replace the 2nd paragraph with =E2=80=9CAccess to the = RPC operation is considered sensitive in and therefore = has been restricted using the 'default-deny-all=E2=80=99 access control = defined in [RFC8341].=E2=80=9D Comments Not Bound to Specific Sections: A) The =E2=80=98=E2=80=99 notation should be introduced = before first use, which occurs inside a parentheses in Section 2. B) =E2=80=9Cfactory-default=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cfactory default=E2=80=9D= (without the hyphen) are used inconsistently. Recommend using the = hyphenated form when referring to YANG node, i.e., "the = =E2=80=98factory-default=E2=80=99 datastore=E2=80=9D and = "=E2=80=9D. C) =E2=80=9Cfactory-reset=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cfactory reset" (without = the hyphen) are used inconsistently. Recommend using the hyphenated = form when referring to YANG node, i.e., "the =E2=80=98factory-reset=E2=80=99= RPC=E2=80=9D and "=E2=80=9D. D) Replace =E2=80=9CHW=E2=80=9D with =E2=80=9Chardware=E2=80=9D (occurs = three places in the draft). Thanks, Kent // as shepherd --Apple-Mail=_42844381-9007-4FBA-8B0D-5AE8385ACD51 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
[catching up on an old shepherd action item]


Authors,

While processing the shepherd = writeup, I discovered some issues that should be fixed before this draft = is forwarded to the IESG.  Please submit an update so that I can = continue the review.

WG,

How is it that so many issues = got through the Last-Call process?!


Comments by Section:

1) The abstract and Introduction both = say =E2=80=9CWhen resetting a datastore, =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D, but this = isn=E2=80=99t the case anymore, I mean, we only reset the = device, right? 

2) The Abstract says = =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6datastore=E2=80=A6that contains data that will be = copied over to the running datastore at reset.=E2=80=9D  This is = inconsistent with what is stated elsewhere about the contents going into = all conventional datastores.  Recommendation is to instead say that = it contains the factory default configuration for the device.

3) The Introduction says = "This datastore can also be used in <get-data> operation=E2=80=9D = - missing the word =E2=80=9Cthe=E2=80=9D before = <get-data>.

4) The Introduction=E2=80=99s 4th paragraph serves no purpose = and asymmetrically calls out NETCONF.  Please delete.

6) Section 1.1 says "A read-only configuration datastore = holding a preconfigured minimal initial configuration that can be used = to initialize the configuration of a server.=E2=80=9D  Remove the = word =E2=80=9Cminimal=E2=80=9D and replace =E2=80=9Ccan be=E2=80=9D with = =E2=80=9Cis=E2=80=9D.

7) Section 1.1 says "The content of the = datastore is usually static, but MAY depend on external factors like = available HW.=E2=80=9D  This is not true.  The contents are = static, full stop.  However, the application of the contents may = vary based on factors such as HW present.   But since this is = always true, I recommend the entire sentence be removed. =  

8) Section 2 says "The contents of the = <operational> datastore MUST be reset back to an appropriate = factory-default state.=E2=80=9D  I think words =E2=80=9Creset=E2=80=9D= and "factory-default state=E2=80=9D are misleading.  Better would = be to say =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6MUST reflect the operational state of the = device after applying the factory default = configuration."

9) Section 2 says =E2=80=9C...MUST = restore storage to factory condition, including remove log files, remove = temporary files (from datastore or elsewhere).=E2=80=9D  This = is both grammatically incorrect and confusing.  Recommend replacing = with =E2=80=9C...MUST restore non-volatile storage to factory condition. =  Depending on the system, this may entail deleting dynamically = generated files, such as those containing keys (e.g., /etc/ssl/private), = certificates (e.g., /etc/ssl), and logs (e.g., /var/log), temporary = files (/tmp/*).

10) After applying the fix from (9) above, the following two = sentences could be replaced with =E2=80=9CAll security sensitive data = (i.e., private keys, passwords, etc.) SHOULD be overwritten with zeros = or a pattern before deletion."

11) Section 3: "Following guidelines = for defining...=E2=80=9D should be "Following the guidelines for = defining=E2=80=A6"

12) Section 3: replace 'factory-default=E2=80=99 with = "factory-default=E2=80=9D.  That is, use double-quotes. The only = time single-quotes are used is when needing to quote something inside a = YANG string.

13)= Section 3:apply the same change described in (6) above wrt = =E2=80=9Cminimal=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ccan be=E2=80=9D.

14) Section 3: remove = the word =E2=80=9Conly=E2=80=9D from "A device MAY only implement the = <factory-reset> RPC without implementing the 'factory-default=E2=80=99= datastore=E2=80=9D, or replace =E2=80=9Cwithout=E2=80=9D with =E2=80=9C, = i.e., without=E2=80=9D.

15) Section 3: replace "which make it lose the ability to see = what configuration the device would be reset back to=E2=80=9D with = =E2=80=9Cwhich would only eliminate the ability to programmatically = determine the factory default configuration=E2=80=9D.

16) Section 3; replace = "RESTCONF,the CLI etcunless=E2=80=9D with =E2=80=9CRESTCONF, the CLI, = etc. unless=E2=80=9D 

17) Section 3 needs to also mention that <candidate>, = if present, is initialized to the contents of = <factory-default>

18) Section 3: the word =E2=80=9Cusually=E2=80=9D in the = sentence "The datastore content is usually defined by the device = vendor.=E2=80=9D Should either be removed or explained how it could ever = not be the case.  (I recommend the former)

19) Section 3: apply the same change = described in (7) above.

20) both of the =E2=80=98import=E2=80=99 statements are = missing =E2=80=98reference=E2=80=99 statements.=E2=80=9D

21) Section 4: the = module=E2=80=99s =E2=80=9Cdescription=E2=80=9D statement is both = incomplete and hard to read. How about replacing it with =E2=80=9CThis = YANG module defines an RPC called =E2=80=98factory-reset=E2=80=99, a = datastore identity called =E2=80=98factory-default=E2=80=99, and and = identity called 'factory-default-datastore=E2=80=99."

22) Section 4, in the = "factory-reset=E2=80=9D RPC: replace "(i.e.,<running> , = <startup>,and <candidate>)=E2=80=9D with  "(i.e., = <running> , <startup>, and <candidate>)=E2=80=9D. =  

23) = Section 4, in the description statement for the "factory-default=E2=80=9D = identity, apply the same change from (2) above.  Also, =E2=80=9Cof = the=E2=80=9D should be =E2=80=9Cof the=E2=80=9D.

24) Section 5, why are the = registrations triple-spaced?

25) Section 6: replace the 2nd = paragraph with =E2=80=9CAccess to the <factory-reset> RPC = operation is considered sensitive in and therefore has been restricted = using the 'default-deny-all=E2=80=99 = access control defined in [RFC8341].=E2=80=9D



Comments Not Bound to = Specific Sections:

A) The =E2=80=98<factory-default>=E2= =80=99 notation should be introduced before first use, which occurs = inside a parentheses in Section 2.

B) =E2=80=9Cfactory-default=E2=80=9D = and =E2=80=9Cfactory default=E2=80=9D (without the hyphen) are used = inconsistently.  Recommend using the hyphenated form when referring = to YANG node, i.e., "the =E2=80=98factory-default=E2=80=99 datastore=E2=80= =9D and "<factory-default>=E2=80=9D.

C) =E2=80=9Cfactory-reset= =E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cfactory reset" (without the hyphen) are used = inconsistently.  Recommend using the hyphenated form when referring = to YANG node, i.e., "the =E2=80=98factory-reset=E2=80=99 RPC=E2=80=9D = and "<factory-reset>=E2=80=9D.

D) Replace =E2=80=9CHW=E2=80=9D with =E2=80=9Chardware=E2= =80=9D (occurs three places in the draft).


Thanks,
Kent // as shepherd


= --Apple-Mail=_42844381-9007-4FBA-8B0D-5AE8385ACD51-- From nobody Mon Feb 10 08:00:28 2020 Return-Path: <010001702b67d068-d2ad4872-84a9-44c7-823e-6813e7434211-000000@amazonses.watsen.net> X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8EED12007A for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 11:23:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=amazonses.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id juxAPQYB47SK for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 11:23:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from a48-92.smtp-out.amazonses.com (a48-92.smtp-out.amazonses.com [54.240.48.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 30612120047 for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 11:23:09 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/simple; s=6gbrjpgwjskckoa6a5zn6fwqkn67xbtw; d=amazonses.com; t=1581276188; h=From:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:References:To:In-Reply-To:Message-Id:Feedback-ID; bh=GqX0cGa3wYxvSAd/O5nyh1Z5gjUQ1ciTk27glNkiBew=; b=at8MCvt+h2XF7/lI1qWyTxzzXSTA3muZyNtlzqgKJQ5Ca200GTc+4oSXUJ3302dF BUlSP8VgVSGEWnRNyRHHZ1i2dA9/u8wo83Ay7tgjXzFla1sdirR6N1XkNfS0DoAzr0h 2uKHCaJNGcJ3J8IKCkq//18OxrjG01P/Xs57p3EA= From: Kent Watsen Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2020 19:23:08 +0000 References: <0100016f8006222d-b861a109-93ee-4a77-8b65-54c22d591e25-000000@email.amazonses.com> To: "netmod@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: <0100016f8006222d-b861a109-93ee-4a77-8b65-54c22d591e25-000000@email.amazonses.com> Message-ID: <010001702b67d068-d2ad4872-84a9-44c7-823e-6813e7434211-000000@email.amazonses.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-SES-Outgoing: 2020.02.09-54.240.48.92 Feedback-ID: 1.us-east-1.DKmIRZFhhsBhtmFMNikgwZUWVrODEw9qVcPhqJEI2DA=:AmazonSES Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] WG Last Call: draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format-06 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Feb 2020 19:23:12 -0000 This message closes the WGLC. Authors, please respond to Juergen=E2=80=99s message from Jan 20, = ultimately posting an update to the draft. Thanks, Kent // as shepherd > On Jan 7, 2020, at 7:41 AM, Kent Watsen wrote: >=20 >=20 > This begins a two-week Working Group Last Call (WGLC) on = draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format-06. The WGLC ends on Jan = 21. Please send your comments to the working group mailing list. >=20 > Positive comments, e.g., "I've reviewed this document and believe it = is ready for publication", are welcome! This is useful and important, = even from authors. Objections, concerns, and suggestions are also = welcomed at this time. >=20 > Thank you, > NETMOD Chairs >=20 > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod From nobody Mon Feb 10 08:02:53 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97275120091; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 19:44:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VwfCK6llPqHE; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 19:44:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D535212008C; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 19:44:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhreml705-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.107]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 3C9B6178C3004D70D7F2; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 03:44:20 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DGGEML402-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.17.38) by lhreml705-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.46) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.408.0; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 03:44:19 +0000 Received: from DGGEML511-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.1.52]) by DGGEML402-HUB.china.huawei.com ([fe80::fca6:7568:4ee3:c776%31]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 11:44:15 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: Kent Watsen , draft-ietf-netmod-factory-default CC: "netmod@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: I-D Action: draft-ietf-netmod-factory-default-09.txt Thread-Index: AdXfwyK0JLSi2UxiRF6STzrC5sXmTw== Date: 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NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 04:25:46 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Network Modeling WG of the IETF. Title : Factory Default Setting Authors : Qin Wu Balazs Lengyel Ye Niu Filename : draft-ietf-netmod-factory-default-10.txt Pages : 11 Date : 2020-02-09 Abstract: This document defines a method to reset a server to its factory- default content. The reset operation may be used, e.g., when the existing configuration has major errors so re-starting the configuration process from scratch is the best option. A new factory-reset RPC is defined. When resetting a device, all previous configuration settings will be lost and replaced by the factory-default content. A new optional "factory-default" read-only datastore is defined, that contains the factory default configuration for the device. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-factory-default/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netmod-factory-default-10 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netmod-factory-default-10 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-netmod-factory-default-10 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Feb 10 08:03:04 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72B8712007C for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 20:28:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id s9N5QBNue75I for ; Sun, 9 Feb 2020 20:28:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A99A9120020 for ; 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Mon, 10 Feb 2020 12:28:05 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: "netmod@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-netmod-factory-default-10.txt Thread-Index: AdXfyntjRQVzQJSeTSmFeUgK+LE5SA== Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 04:28:04 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.138.33.123] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] New Version Notification for draft-ietf-netmod-factory-default-10.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 04:28:16 -0000 VGhlIHYtMTAgaXMgcG9zdGVkIHRvIGFkZHJlc3MgY29tbWVudHMgcmFpc2VkIGluIFNoZXBoZXJk IGRvY3VtZW50IHJldmlldy4NClRoZSBkaWZmIGlzOg0KaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvcmZj ZGlmZj91cmwyPWRyYWZ0LWlldGYtbmV0bW9kLWZhY3RvcnktZGVmYXVsdC0xMA0KDQotUWluDQot LS0tLemCruS7tuWOn+S7ti0tLS0tDQrlj5Hku7bkuro6IGludGVybmV0LWRyYWZ0c0BpZXRmLm9y ZyBbbWFpbHRvOmludGVybmV0LWRyYWZ0c0BpZXRmLm9yZ10gDQrlj5HpgIHml7bpl7Q6IDIwMjDl ubQy5pyIMTDml6UgMTI6MjYNCuaUtuS7tuS6ujogTml1eWUgPG5pdXllQGh1YXdlaS5jb20+OyBR aW4gV3UgPGJpbGwud3VAaHVhd2VpLmNvbT47IFFpbiBXdSA8YmlsbC53dUBodWF3ZWkuY29tPjsg QmFsYXpzIExlbmd5ZWwgPGJhbGF6cy5sZW5neWVsQGVyaWNzc29uLmNvbT4NCuS4u+mimDogTmV3 IFZlcnNpb24gTm90aWZpY2F0aW9uIGZvciBkcmFmdC1pZXRmLW5ldG1vZC1mYWN0b3J5LWRlZmF1 bHQtMTAudHh0DQoNCg0KQSBuZXcgdmVyc2lvbiBvZiBJLUQsIGRyYWZ0LWlldGYtbmV0bW9kLWZh Y3RvcnktZGVmYXVsdC0xMC50eHQNCmhhcyBiZWVuIHN1Y2Nlc3NmdWxseSBzdWJtaXR0ZWQgYnkg UWluIFd1IGFuZCBwb3N0ZWQgdG8gdGhlIElFVEYgcmVwb3NpdG9yeS4NCg0KTmFtZToJCWRyYWZ0 LWlldGYtbmV0bW9kLWZhY3RvcnktZGVmYXVsdA0KUmV2aXNpb246CTEwDQpUaXRsZToJCUZhY3Rv cnkgRGVmYXVsdCBTZXR0aW5nDQpEb2N1bWVudCBkYXRlOgkyMDIwLTAyLTA5DQpHcm91cDoJCW5l dG1vZA0KUGFnZXM6CQkxMQ0KVVJMOiAgICAgICAgICAgIGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL2lu dGVybmV0LWRyYWZ0cy9kcmFmdC1pZXRmLW5ldG1vZC1mYWN0b3J5LWRlZmF1bHQtMTAudHh0DQpT dGF0dXM6ICAgICAgICAgaHR0cHM6Ly9kYXRhdHJhY2tlci5pZXRmLm9yZy9kb2MvZHJhZnQtaWV0 Zi1uZXRtb2QtZmFjdG9yeS1kZWZhdWx0Lw0KSHRtbGl6ZWQ6ICAgICAgIGh0dHBzOi8vdG9vbHMu aWV0Zi5vcmcvaHRtbC9kcmFmdC1pZXRmLW5ldG1vZC1mYWN0b3J5LWRlZmF1bHQtMTANCkh0bWxp emVkOiAgICAgICBodHRwczovL2RhdGF0cmFja2VyLmlldGYub3JnL2RvYy9odG1sL2RyYWZ0LWll dGYtbmV0bW9kLWZhY3RvcnktZGVmYXVsdA0KRGlmZjogICAgICAgICAgIGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3Lmll dGYub3JnL3JmY2RpZmY/dXJsMj1kcmFmdC1pZXRmLW5ldG1vZC1mYWN0b3J5LWRlZmF1bHQtMTAN Cg0KQWJzdHJhY3Q6DQogICBUaGlzIGRvY3VtZW50IGRlZmluZXMgYSBtZXRob2QgdG8gcmVzZXQg YSBzZXJ2ZXIgdG8gaXRzIGZhY3RvcnktDQogICBkZWZhdWx0IGNvbnRlbnQuICBUaGUgcmVzZXQg b3BlcmF0aW9uIG1heSBiZSB1c2VkLCBlLmcuLCB3aGVuIHRoZQ0KICAgZXhpc3RpbmcgY29uZmln dXJhdGlvbiBoYXMgbWFqb3IgZXJyb3JzIHNvIHJlLXN0YXJ0aW5nIHRoZQ0KICAgY29uZmlndXJh dGlvbiBwcm9jZXNzIGZyb20gc2NyYXRjaCBpcyB0aGUgYmVzdCBvcHRpb24uDQoNCiAgIEEgbmV3 IGZhY3RvcnktcmVzZXQgUlBDIGlzIGRlZmluZWQuICBXaGVuIHJlc2V0dGluZyBhIGRldmljZSwg YWxsDQogICBwcmV2aW91cyBjb25maWd1cmF0aW9uIHNldHRpbmdzIHdpbGwgYmUgbG9zdCBhbmQg cmVwbGFjZWQgYnkgdGhlDQogICBmYWN0b3J5LWRlZmF1bHQgY29udGVudC4NCg0KICAgQSBuZXcg b3B0aW9uYWwgImZhY3RvcnktZGVmYXVsdCIgcmVhZC1vbmx5IGRhdGFzdG9yZSBpcyBkZWZpbmVk LCB0aGF0DQogICBjb250YWlucyB0aGUgZmFjdG9yeSBkZWZhdWx0IGNvbmZpZ3VyYXRpb24gZm9y IHRoZSBkZXZpY2UuDQoNCiAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICANCg0KDQpQbGVhc2Ugbm90 ZSB0aGF0IGl0IG1heSB0YWtlIGEgY291cGxlIG9mIG1pbnV0ZXMgZnJvbSB0aGUgdGltZSBvZiBz dWJtaXNzaW9uIHVudGlsIHRoZSBodG1saXplZCB2ZXJzaW9uIGFuZCBkaWZmIGFyZSBhdmFpbGFi bGUgYXQgdG9vbHMuaWV0Zi5vcmcuDQoNClRoZSBJRVRGIFNlY3JldGFyaWF0DQoNCg== From nobody Mon Feb 10 08:10:29 2020 Return-Path: <010001702fc09a71-4c62925a-1d46-4163-9157-866d574d96c4-000000@amazonses.watsen.net> X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79AFB120255 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 07:38:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=amazonses.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l8Aqo3L05aBo for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 07:38:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from a48-93.smtp-out.amazonses.com (a48-93.smtp-out.amazonses.com [54.240.48.93]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1A9FC120232 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 07:38:37 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/simple; s=6gbrjpgwjskckoa6a5zn6fwqkn67xbtw; d=amazonses.com; t=1581349116; h=Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-Id:References:To:Feedback-ID; bh=DUpNOyGA/Ket6pbm4ajL5HpK2AR21g/Bv4qApWPw3C0=; b=STOB5ur48pdyr5z7pgeenYhmv7ihHvxRmIZUpZBgWEiuK+nG0ifdqijSOVcuVc2v PBXwF2IUKeBVL/7bJCWYofHDefT76ZqgkvMwnsCswA0iqkflmP4rGSgIxdv0DWus+Mn NTrA8VmJxsRarbVmw5cRA6Ku68OuXq1RDUjHHSvQ= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Kent Watsen In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 15:38:36 +0000 Cc: "netmod@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: <010001702fc09a71-4c62925a-1d46-4163-9157-866d574d96c4-000000@email.amazonses.com> References: To: Qin Wu X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-SES-Outgoing: 2020.02.10-54.240.48.93 Feedback-ID: 1.us-east-1.DKmIRZFhhsBhtmFMNikgwZUWVrODEw9qVcPhqJEI2DA=:AmazonSES Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] New Version Notification for draft-ietf-netmod-factory-default-10.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 15:38:40 -0000 Thanks for the update, Qin. BTW, my previous email to the =E2=80=9Cnetmod=E2=80=9D list did not get = reflected back to me, and I don=E2=80=99t see either of out emails in = the archives, so there is a chance that we=E2=80=99re having this = conversation in isolation, even though =E2=80=9Cnetmod=E2=80=9D is = CC-ed=E2=80=A6. Regardless, looking at the diffs, I have the following comments: - I=E2=80=99m not happy with the new =E2=80=9Cfactory-default=E2=80=9D = term. Please remove it and review all uses of =E2=80=9Cfactory-default=E2= =80=9D to see if they should be =E2=80=9Cfactory default=E2=80=9D = (without the hyphen). Again, the hyphen should only be used when = referring to the YANG node; in all other cases it should not be = hyphenated. Please beware that I see I the diff you made an attempt to = hyphenate a number of instances of what should be =E2=80=9Cfactory = default=E2=80=9D. Please undo all these. Again, the hyphen should only = be present when referring to the YANG node, otherwise the hyphen should = not be present. - In Section 2, replace ", and logs (e.g., /var/log), temporary files = (e.g., /tmp/*)=E2=80=9D with ", logs (e.g., /var/log), and temporary = files (e.g., /tmp/*).=E2=80=9D That is, move the =E2=80=9Cand=E2=80=9D = to the end... - In the YANG module, you must=E2=80=99ve copy/pasted the description = incompletely=E2=80=A6please add the last stanza from my previous email = (=E2=80=9Ci.e., beginning with =E2=80=9Cand=E2=80=9D) to "This module = defines an RPC called 'factory-reset', a datastore identity called = 'factory-default-datastore=E2=80=99=E2=80=9D. - in Section 6: a) s/sensitive in and therefore/sensitive and therefore// b) s/default- deny-all/default-deny-all/ c) s/in . [RFC8341]/in [RFC8341]./ Kent // as Shepherd > On Feb 9, 2020, at 11:28 PM, Qin Wu wrote: >=20 > The v-10 is posted to address comments raised in Shepherd document = review. > The diff is: > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-netmod-factory-default-10= >=20 > -Qin > -----=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E5=8E=9F=E4=BB=B6----- > =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: internet-drafts@ietf.org = [mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org]=20 > =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2020=E5=B9=B42=E6=9C=8810=E6=97=A5= 12:26 > =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Niuye ; Qin Wu = ; Qin Wu ; Balazs Lengyel = > =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: New Version Notification for = draft-ietf-netmod-factory-default-10.txt >=20 >=20 > A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-netmod-factory-default-10.txt > has been successfully submitted by Qin Wu and posted to the IETF = repository. >=20 > Name: draft-ietf-netmod-factory-default > Revision: 10 > Title: Factory Default Setting > Document date: 2020-02-09 > Group: netmod > Pages: 11 > URL: = https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-netmod-factory-default-10.= txt > Status: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-factory-default/ > Htmlized: = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netmod-factory-default-10 > Htmlized: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netmod-factory-default > Diff: = https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-netmod-factory-default-10 >=20 > Abstract: > This document defines a method to reset a server to its factory- > default content. The reset operation may be used, e.g., when the > existing configuration has major errors so re-starting the > configuration process from scratch is the best option. >=20 > A new factory-reset RPC is defined. When resetting a device, all > previous configuration settings will be lost and replaced by the > factory-default content. >=20 > A new optional "factory-default" read-only datastore is defined, = that > contains the factory default configuration for the device. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of = submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at = tools.ietf.org. >=20 > The IETF Secretariat >=20 From nobody Mon Feb 10 18:40:23 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3432A1200B6; Mon, 10 Feb 2020 18:40:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Tue, 11 Feb 2020 02:40:14 +0000 Received: from AM6PR06MB5653.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::4d14:ef4b:8837:87c5]) by AM6PR06MB5653.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::4d14:ef4b:8837:87c5%7]) with mapi id 15.20.2707.030; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 02:40:14 +0000 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Oscar_Gonz=E1lez_de_Dios?= To: "opsawg@ietf.org" , "netmod@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Question on how to design a Yang model to reflect auto-asignment of a give leaf Thread-Index: AdXgf2dbJ6WUxXgzRxKVGs1XfT3HEw== Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 02:40:14 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: es-ES, en-US Content-Language: es-ES X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=oscar.gonzalezdedios@telefonica.com; x-originating-ip: [186.231.32.211] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-ht: Tenant x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: b72a324b-b456-48ee-34f8-08d7ae9bb944 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: AM6PR06MB5062: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; 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boundary="_000_AM6PR06MB5653DFBCFC89E54F28E45AECFD180AM6PR06MB5653eurp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: telefonica.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: b72a324b-b456-48ee-34f8-08d7ae9bb944 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 11 Feb 2020 02:40:14.6424 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 9744600e-3e04-492e-baa1-25ec245c6f10 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: iRNzeEKSlXgnJ8smHUQWT0ZlefnSZhdcEqs6YCYCDEMTEYyKGVgJpuWmEllrDLx8sj+gSJ/QAsp9ZogOh2w4J+jt5aRWY6Bbw1ygk7lSozZKVbK5zd6Q9vrLHKmkEFzs X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM6PR06MB5062 Archived-At: Subject: [netmod] Question on how to design a Yang model to reflect auto-asignment of a give leaf X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 02:40:21 -0000 --_000_AM6PR06MB5653DFBCFC89E54F28E45AECFD180AM6PR06MB5653eurp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear OPSAWG and Netmod colleagues, During last IETF Opsawg meeting we raised a question (and t= here was some discussion during the meeting) that we have found yet no good= answer and we would like to discuss it with operations and Yang experts. The use case is the following: We have a yang module which= holds certain optional leafs. The behaviors that we would like to have (an= d distinguish between them) are: a) The user does not provide the value and such value is auto-assigne= d by the system (a device (if it is a device module) or a controller (if i= t is a network/service module)). b) The user does not provide a value and wants that such value IS NOT = set by the system (as assigning a value has implications). That is, intenti= onally it is aimed at being left "empty" and should not be expanded. So, ei= ther the value is set or should remain empty What is the best way to model this behavior? I see that some yang modules h= ave added an "auto-assignment" leaf to express if auto-assignment is desire= d or not. (hence, auto-assignment false, and leaf not set, would do not as= sign). Which is the "default" rule for a leaf that is not set? It is that the syst= em is free to create it (via template or any means of auto-assignment) or s= hould leave it as is, that is, empty? In NMDA, the system is allowed to expand a given configuration. This fact, = in my personal view, implies that by "default" any system could implement = the "auto-assignment" behavior being compliant with Neconf/Restconf/NMDA ru= les (but I am not sure if the interpretation is correct). Best Regards, =D3scar ________________________________ Este mensaje y sus adjuntos se dirigen exclusivamente a su destinatario, pu= ede contener informaci=F3n privilegiada o confidencial y es para uso exclus= ivo de la persona o entidad de destino. Si no es usted. el destinatario ind= icado, queda notificado de que la lectura, utilizaci=F3n, divulgaci=F3n y/o= copia sin autorizaci=F3n puede estar prohibida en virtud de la legislaci= =F3n vigente. Si ha recibido este mensaje por error, le rogamos que nos lo = comunique inmediatamente por esta misma v=EDa y proceda a su destrucci=F3n. The information contained in this transmission is privileged and confidenti= al information intended only for the use of the individual or entity named = above. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are= hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this co= mmunication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission = in error, do not read it. Please immediately reply to the sender that you h= ave received this communication in error and then delete it. Esta mensagem e seus anexos se dirigem exclusivamente ao seu destinat=E1rio= , pode conter informa=E7=E3o privilegiada ou confidencial e =E9 para uso ex= clusivo da pessoa ou entidade de destino. Se n=E3o =E9 vossa senhoria o des= tinat=E1rio indicado, fica notificado de que a leitura, utiliza=E7=E3o, div= ulga=E7=E3o e/ou c=F3pia sem autoriza=E7=E3o pode estar proibida em virtude= da legisla=E7=E3o vigente. Se recebeu esta mensagem por erro, rogamos-lhe = que nos o comunique imediatamente por esta mesma via e proceda a sua destru= i=E7=E3o --_000_AM6PR06MB5653DFBCFC89E54F28E45AECFD180AM6PR06MB5653eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear OPSAWG and Netmod colleagu= es,

 

     &= nbsp;          During last IET= F Opsawg meeting we raised a question (and there was some discussion during= the meeting) that we have found yet no good answer and we would like to di= scuss it with operations and Yang experts.

 

     &= nbsp;          The use case is= the following:  We have a yang module which holds certain optional le= afs. The behaviors that we would like to have (and distinguish between them= ) are:

 

a= )   &= nbsp;   The user does not provi= de the value and such value is auto-assigned by the system (a  device = (if it is a device module) or a controller (if it is a network/service modu= le)).

b= )   &= nbsp;  The user does not provi= de a value and wants that such value IS NOT set by the system (as assigning= a value has implications). That is, intentionally it is aimed at being lef= t “empty” and should not be expanded. So, either the value is set or should remain empty

 

W= hat is the best way to model this behavior? I see that some yang modules ha= ve added an “auto-assignment” leaf to express if auto-assignmen= t is desired or not. (hence, auto-assignment false, and leaf not set, would  do not assign).

&= nbsp;

W= hich is the “default” rule for a leaf that is not set? It is th= at the system is free to create it (via template or any means of auto-assig= nment) or should leave it as is, that is, empty?

<= o:p> 

I= n NMDA, the system is allowed to expand a given configuration. This fact, i= n my personal view,  implies that by “default” any system = could implement the “auto-assignment” behavior being compliant with Neconf/Restconf/NMDA rules (but I am not sure if the interpretation i= s correct).

 

B= est Regards,

<= o:p> 

&= nbsp;           &nbs= p;   =D3scar



Este mensaje y sus adjuntos se dirigen exclusivamente a su destinatario, pu= ede contener informaci=F3n privilegiada o confidencial y es para uso exclus= ivo de la persona o entidad de destino. Si no es usted. el destinatario ind= icado, queda notificado de que la lectura, utilizaci=F3n, divulgaci=F3n y/o copia sin autorizaci=F3n puede e= star prohibida en virtud de la legislaci=F3n vigente. Si ha recibido este m= ensaje por error, le rogamos que nos lo comunique inmediatamente por esta m= isma v=EDa y proceda a su destrucci=F3n.

The information contained in this transmission is privileged and confidenti= al information intended only for the use of the individual or entity named = above. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are= hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If y= ou have received this transmission in error, do not read it. Please immedia= tely reply to the sender that you have received this communication in error= and then delete it.

Esta mensagem e seus anexos se dirigem exclusivamente ao seu destinat=E1rio= , pode conter informa=E7=E3o privilegiada ou confidencial e =E9 para uso ex= clusivo da pessoa ou entidade de destino. Se n=E3o =E9 vossa senhoria o des= tinat=E1rio indicado, fica notificado de que a leitura, utiliza=E7=E3o, divulga=E7=E3o e/ou c=F3pia sem autoriza=E7=E3o p= ode estar proibida em virtude da legisla=E7=E3o vigente. Se recebeu esta me= nsagem por erro, rogamos-lhe que nos o comunique imediatamente por esta mes= ma via e proceda a sua destrui=E7=E3o
 --_000_AM6PR06MB5653DFBCFC89E54F28E45AECFD180AM6PR06MB5653eurp_-- From nobody Tue Feb 11 01:29:20 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57A3B1201E0; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 01:29:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.597 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.597 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PhohsT1tPBSJ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 01:29:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from mta7.iomartmail.com (mta7.iomartmail.com [62.128.193.157]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0E5F1120020; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 01:29:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from vs2.iomartmail.com (vs2.iomartmail.com [10.12.10.123]) by mta7.iomartmail.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 01B9T9Iw009440; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 09:29:09 GMT Received: from vs2.iomartmail.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B0E82204A; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 09:29:09 +0000 (GMT) Received: from asmtp3.iomartmail.com (unknown [10.12.10.224]) by vs2.iomartmail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 44A0522048; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 09:29:09 +0000 (GMT) Received: from LAPTOPK7AS653V (089144205224.atnat0014.highway.webapn.at [89.144.205.224]) (authenticated bits=0) by asmtp3.iomartmail.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id 01B9T8j7007329 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 11 Feb 2020 09:29:08 GMT Reply-To: From: "Adrian Farrel" To: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?'Oscar_Gonz=E1lez_de_Dios'?=" , , References: In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 09:29:07 -0000 Organization: Old Dog Consulting Message-ID: <05b201d5e0bd$b6072520$22156f60$@olddog.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_05B3_01D5E0BD.B6072520" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Content-Language: en-gb Thread-Index: AQMbx7ZisvSDR1EI+zVXCf/lvNieh6WJ67IQ X-Originating-IP: 89.144.205.224 X-Thinkmail-Auth: adrian@olddog.co.uk X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSVA-9.0.0.1623-8.2.0.1013-25224.005 X-TM-AS-Result: No--19.789-10.0-31-10 X-imss-scan-details: No--19.789-10.0-31-10 X-TMASE-Version: IMSVA-9.0.0.1623-8.2.1013-25224.005 X-TMASE-Result: 10--19.788600-10.000000 X-TMASE-MatchedRID: yebcs53SkkDxIbpQ8BhdbMzSKGx9g8xhqb3/o5s+OcNZ+YxyNxdzR1+N xwaxRYfvZJ+1U5CKLArxfWM+PIJa9uyt+a9Mtf+e8sc9oYKBve0+8WcgUjQUwiVJ1X9ZfHjXjQb 0ZijHcXA3Opzody2+qtfks/hPGgP5oQB3WAEpQLBUtFP653DHOLPgPvvwZyAROFiq9T5j3bWm2A O8c0o94kyabxvG0VndZok17GuDVgto/KGUV8ExqKroPbyANljgNRgcGqeB7b17uKMeruD2hrxcn Qq9vpcj4UVrO0h/WPxNspS/wQzGfYEA1AgGhA6pRBpDaTjP17ZQYo4xNF42Pi1fxFk3nlsuIw64 a0XgvUQYN30K9opVtdpLCq43Ert9y8DgNDt52YPPt0BCUKvjb5T90Kmx3bAeNs6rkdfjKVonp08 UAE0Wd73DiVsmUFdzelWcbd+lNvA8EsNqyZ1CzkS06t+EwLFSo+Qf8eUQWkePidi1OtopYyxCxM 8fgRh8Ps+FZHj2fJroPgRaUWjEzSztlhHSitjbxMxd/ZbO4GrPb1ynRkjJR3UayEpPvCHIej2V/ C8k9MaSsoEmD0IX6/d/G8vPpfqdvgWKYfsc+010KSA6l/GyKr5z1PmtbhtDcLmqoDKWuTAH2v62 8TAejK1zvtrcSIIrX18uUCAKL1X1f6EBkUtKaVHmrymVJ0uQtHpusXAVaAzc9KE2iwgwHhvPK7H JN6/Eenf1BR7Ur2M90zXgxkIfv6x9MD7jDQlWfY+iJfFQBxctxMagbN9/PAzvg1/q1MH2i8AKIR x0BCaUIK5oH9AEyYbQBKvu5aGu0bMgNH2rplKeAiCmPx4NwGmRqNBHmBve4vrbb+Cbm+mw7M6dy uYKgwDJmNK5f3bTb9mqLPX9lwfHa5sKNdYV6FxpOLYQuCsiTFL1glziFeA= X-TMASE-SNAP-Result: 1.821001.0001-0-1-12:0,22:0,33:0,34:0-0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Question on how to design a Yang model to reflect auto-asignment of a give leaf X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 09:29:15 -0000 This is a multipart message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_05B3_01D5E0BD.B6072520 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Isn=92t it possible to handle case b) by defining a value to have the = meaning =93no value has been assigned=94 and then the user an explicitly set = that value? =20 Adrian =20 From: netmod On Behalf Of Oscar Gonz=E1lez de = Dios Sent: 11 February 2020 02:40 To: opsawg@ietf.org; netmod@ietf.org Subject: [netmod] Question on how to design a Yang model to reflect auto-asignment of a give leaf =20 Dear OPSAWG and Netmod colleagues, =20 During last IETF Opsawg meeting we raised a question = (and there was some discussion during the meeting) that we have found yet no = good answer and we would like to discuss it with operations and Yang experts. =20 The use case is the following: We have a yang module = which holds certain optional leafs. The behaviors that we would like to have = (and distinguish between them) are: =20 a. The user does not provide the value and such value is auto-assigned by the system (a device (if it is a device module) or a controller (if = it is a network/service module)).=20 b. The user does not provide a value and wants that such value IS NOT set by the system (as assigning a value has implications). That is, intentionally it is aimed at being left =93empty=94 and should not be = expanded. So, either the value is set or should remain empty =20 What is the best way to model this behavior? I see that some yang = modules have added an =93auto-assignment=94 leaf to express if auto-assignment = is desired or not. (hence, auto-assignment false, and leaf not set, would = do not assign).=20 =20 Which is the =93default=94 rule for a leaf that is not set? It is that = the system is free to create it (via template or any means of = auto-assignment) or should leave it as is, that is, empty?=20 =20 In NMDA, the system is allowed to expand a given configuration. This = fact, in my personal view, implies that by =93default=94 any system could = implement the =93auto-assignment=94 behavior being compliant with = Neconf/Restconf/NMDA rules (but I am not sure if the interpretation is correct). =20 Best Regards, =20 =D3scar=20 =20 _____ =20 Este mensaje y sus adjuntos se dirigen exclusivamente a su destinatario, puede contener informaci=F3n privilegiada o confidencial y es para uso exclusivo de la persona o entidad de destino. Si no es usted. el destinatario indicado, queda notificado de que la lectura, = utilizaci=F3n, divulgaci=F3n y/o copia sin autorizaci=F3n puede estar prohibida en = virtud de la legislaci=F3n vigente. Si ha recibido este mensaje por error, le rogamos = que nos lo comunique inmediatamente por esta misma v=EDa y proceda a su destrucci=F3n. The information contained in this transmission is privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution = or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have = received this transmission in error, do not read it. Please immediately reply to = the sender that you have received this communication in error and then = delete it. Esta mensagem e seus anexos se dirigem exclusivamente ao seu = destinat=E1rio, pode conter informa=E7=E3o privilegiada ou confidencial e =E9 para uso = exclusivo da pessoa ou entidade de destino. Se n=E3o =E9 vossa senhoria o = destinat=E1rio indicado, fica notificado de que a leitura, utiliza=E7=E3o, = divulga=E7=E3o e/ou c=F3pia sem autoriza=E7=E3o pode estar proibida em virtude da = legisla=E7=E3o vigente. Se recebeu esta mensagem por erro, rogamos-lhe que nos o comunique imediatamente por esta mesma via e proceda a sua destrui=E7=E3o ------=_NextPart_000_05B3_01D5E0BD.B6072520 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Isn’t it possible to handle case b) by defining = a value to have the meaning “no value has been assigned” and = then the user an explicitly set that value?

 

Adrian

 

From: netmod = <netmod-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Oscar Gonz=E1lez de = Dios
Sent: 11 February 2020 02:40
To: = opsawg@ietf.org; netmod@ietf.org
Subject: [netmod] Question on = how to design a Yang model to reflect auto-asignment of a give = leaf

 

Dear OPSAWG and Netmod colleagues,

 

          =       During last IETF Opsawg meeting we raised = a question (and there was some discussion during the meeting) that we = have found yet no good answer and we would like to discuss it with = operations and Yang experts.

 

          =       The use case is the following:  We = have a yang module which holds certain optional leafs. The behaviors = that we would like to have (and distinguish between them) = are:

 

  1. The user does not provide the value and such value is = auto-assigned by the system (a  device (if it is a device module) = or a controller (if it is a network/service module)). =
  2. The user does not provide a value and wants that such value = IS NOT set by the system (as assigning a value has implications). That = is, intentionally it is aimed at being left “empty” and = should not be expanded. So, either the value is set or should remain = empty

 

What is the best way to = model this behavior? I see that some yang modules have added an = “auto-assignment” leaf to express if auto-assignment is = desired or not. (hence, auto-assignment false, and leaf not set, = would  do not assign).

 

Which is the = “default” rule for a leaf that is not set? It is that the = system is free to create it (via template or any means of = auto-assignment) or should leave it as is, that is, empty? =

 

In NMDA, the system is = allowed to expand a given configuration. This fact, in my personal view, =  implies that by “default” any system could implement = the “auto-assignment” behavior being compliant with = Neconf/Restconf/NMDA rules (but I am not sure if the interpretation is = correct).

 

Best = Regards,

 

          =       =D3scar

 


Este mensaje y sus adjuntos se dirigen = exclusivamente a su destinatario, puede contener informaci=F3n = privilegiada o confidencial y es para uso exclusivo de la persona o = entidad de destino. Si no es usted. el destinatario indicado, queda = notificado de que la lectura, utilizaci=F3n, divulgaci=F3n y/o copia sin = autorizaci=F3n puede estar prohibida en virtud de la legislaci=F3n = vigente. Si ha recibido este mensaje por error, le rogamos que nos lo = comunique inmediatamente por esta misma v=EDa y proceda a su = destrucci=F3n.

The information contained in this transmission is = privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the = individual or entity named above. If the reader of this message is not = the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, = distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If = you have received this transmission in error, do not read it. Please = immediately reply to the sender that you have received this = communication in error and then delete it.

Esta mensagem e seus = anexos se dirigem exclusivamente ao seu destinat=E1rio, pode conter = informa=E7=E3o privilegiada ou confidencial e =E9 para uso exclusivo da = pessoa ou entidade de destino. Se n=E3o =E9 vossa senhoria o = destinat=E1rio indicado, fica notificado de que a leitura, = utiliza=E7=E3o, divulga=E7=E3o e/ou c=F3pia sem autoriza=E7=E3o pode = estar proibida em virtude da legisla=E7=E3o vigente. Se recebeu esta = mensagem por erro, rogamos-lhe que nos o comunique imediatamente por = esta mesma via e proceda a sua destrui=E7=E3o

<= /html> ------=_NextPart_000_05B3_01D5E0BD.B6072520-- From nobody Tue Feb 11 02:00:42 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC65C120241; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 02:00:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1BfA8_WyaG3B; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 02:00:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.tail-f.com (mail.tail-f.com [46.21.102.45]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC22F120220; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 02:00:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (unknown [173.38.220.37]) by mail.tail-f.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 20F251AE018B; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 11:00:35 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 10:59:56 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <20200211.105956.997059335051594687.mbj@tail-f.com> To: oscar.gonzalezdedios@telefonica.com Cc: opsawg@ietf.org, netmod@ietf.org From: Martin Bjorklund In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Mew version 6.8 on Emacs 25.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Question on how to design a Yang model to reflect auto-asignment of a give leaf X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 10:00:39 -0000 Hi, Oscar Gonz=E1lez de Dios wrote: > Dear OPSAWG and Netmod colleagues, > = > During last IETF Opsawg meeting we raised a question = (and > there was some discussion during the meeting) that we= have > found yet no good answer and we would like to discuss= it with > operations and Yang experts. > = > The use case is the following: We have a yang module = which > holds certain optional leafs. The behaviors that we w= ould like > to have (and distinguish between them) are: > = > = > a) The user does not provide the value and such value is auto-assigne= d > by the system (a device (if it is a device module) or a controller (i= f > it is a network/service module)). I assume that this value not a static default value? > b) The user does not provide a value and wants that such value IS NOT= > set by the system (as assigning a value has implications). That is, > intentionally it is aimed at being left "empty" and should not be > expanded. So, either the value is set or should remain empty Do you mean that you want (a) and (b) at the same time for the same leaf? > What is the best way to model this behavior? I see that some yang > modules have added an "auto-assignment" leaf to express if > auto-assignment is desired or not. (hence, auto-assignment false, and= > leaf not set, would do not assign). > = > Which is the "default" rule for a leaf that is not set? It is that th= e > system is free to create it (via template or any means of > auto-assignment) or should leave it as is, that is, empty? > = > In NMDA, the system is allowed to expand a given configuration. This > fact, in my personal view, implies that by "default" any system could= > implement the "auto-assignment" behavior being compliant with > Neconf/Restconf/NMDA rules (but I am not sure if the interpretation i= s > correct). There are (at least) three ways to interpret "auto-assign". The client writes to running, and then the server auto-assigns X: (a) in running (b) in intended (c) in the operational state (c) is uncontroversial and simple to implement in all servers, and simple to understand. (b) is allowed by NMDA but requires more of the server implementation; specifically it requires the server to support that intended is different from running. (a) is not recommended in general; running should be fully owned by the client(s) and not modified by the server. /martin > = > Best Regards, > = > =D3scar > = > ________________________________ > = > Este mensaje y sus adjuntos se dirigen exclusivamente a su > destinatario, puede contener informaci=F3n privilegiada o confidencia= l y > es para uso exclusivo de la persona o entidad de destino. Si no es > usted. el destinatario indicado, queda notificado de que la lectura, > utilizaci=F3n, divulgaci=F3n y/o copia sin autorizaci=F3n puede estar= > prohibida en virtud de la legislaci=F3n vigente. Si ha recibido este > mensaje por error, le rogamos que nos lo comunique inmediatamente por= > esta misma v=EDa y proceda a su destrucci=F3n. > = > The information contained in this transmission is privileged and > confidential information intended only for the use of the individual > or entity named above. If the reader of this message is not the > intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, > distribution or copying of this communication is strictly > prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, do not > read it. Please immediately reply to the sender that you have receive= d > this communication in error and then delete it. > = > Esta mensagem e seus anexos se dirigem exclusivamente ao seu > destinat=E1rio, pode conter informa=E7=E3o privilegiada ou confidenci= al e =E9 > para uso exclusivo da pessoa ou entidade de destino. Se n=E3o =E9 vos= sa > senhoria o destinat=E1rio indicado, fica notificado de que a leitura,= > utiliza=E7=E3o, divulga=E7=E3o e/ou c=F3pia sem autoriza=E7=E3o pode = estar proibida > em virtude da legisla=E7=E3o vigente. Se recebeu esta mensagem por er= ro, > rogamos-lhe que nos o comunique imediatamente por esta mesma via e > proceda a sua destrui=E7=E3o From nobody Tue Feb 11 09:15:34 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E2F612081D for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 09:15:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.002 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.002 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JrQrwwTi2fuw for ; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 09:15:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from EUR05-DB8-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-db8eur05on2082.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.20.82]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1C3F112082E for ; 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protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=SHA1; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_05A8_01D5E107.397C3640" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: ericsson.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: aa0f7b65-1ba8-49d0-859b-08d7af15fb3e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 11 Feb 2020 17:15:24.0017 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: kF/722ibN2Vw3d22rLguC4c0asK7xw8UdU2t3bBJ+kuGwj59Vb7RA1J2j4eFrqQCDdsXM83TE0n8vp8k5uH8Ib9vFaMZl5t8ALCFY7saVow= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB7PR07MB4620 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] WG Last Call: draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format-06 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 17:15:32 -0000 ------=_NextPart_000_05A8_01D5E107.397C3640 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -----Original Message----- From: netmod On Behalf Of Sch=F6nw=E4lder, = J=FCrgen Sent: 2020. janu=E1r 20., h=E9tf=F5 15:46 To: Kent Watsen Cc: NETMOD Working Group Subject: Re: [netmod] WG Last Call: draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format-06 On Tue, Jan 07, 2020 at 12:41:23PM +0000, Kent Watsen wrote: >=20 > This begins a two-week Working Group Last Call (WGLC) on draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format-06. The WGLC ends on Jan = 21. Please send your comments to the working group mailing list. >=20 > Positive comments, e.g., "I've reviewed this document and believe it = is ready for publication", are welcome! This is useful and important, even from authors. Objections, concerns, and suggestions are also welcomed = at this time. > I have reviewed draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format-06. I = believe this is an important document but not quite ready yet. Most of the = points I am raising below should, however, be easy to resolve, many concern terminology and writing consolidation and do not affect the technical solution. /js * Abstract I think we should avoid referring to some operation. Here is a proposal of a rewrite: OLD running server available. This document specifies a standard file format for YANG instance data (which follows the syntax and semantic from existing YANG models, re-using the same format as the reply to a operation/request) and annotates it with metadata. NEW running server available. This document specifies a standard file format for YANG instance data, which follows the syntax and semantic of existing YANG models, and annotates it with metadata. BALAZS: Other have expressly asked for a reference to "get" but if you = want I can remove it. * Terminology - Add missing dots (full stops) at the end of sentences BALAZS: OK - I fail to see the difference between 'content-schema' and 'content defining YANG module(s)'. The 'content-schema' is already a set of YANG modules. I suggest to remove 'Content defining YANG module(s) as it is not a necessary term. Rewrite all places where the phrase 'content defining YANG modules' is used. BALAZS: a schema is a full set of YANG modules needed to define the=20 structure and properties of the instance data (+features, deviations). =20 A "content defining YANG module" is an individual YANG module is=20 part of the content-schema. So the difference is a set versus one item.=20 I updated the description to emphasize this difference. - Is "YANG Instance Data" a newly defined term? It's introduction does not follow the colon style. I also wonder why we need this term. Why is YANG in there? I would prefer to have this defined in RFC 7950 terms. Is 'instance data' a collection of instantiated 'data nodes'? Perhaps then we should do the following and move this up to the first definition, so we define instance data first, then instance data set, and finally instance data file. OLD YANG Instance Data, or just instance data for short, is data that could be stored in a datastore and whose syntax and semantics is defined by YANG models. NEW Instance Data: A collection of instantiated data nodes. BALAZS: OK, updated.=20 * Introduction - It seems UC5 subsumes UC4. BALAS: OK UC4 and 5 merged - One could add UCx: Storing instance data used as test cases but then this list of use cases does not need to be exhaustive (means I do not care much). BALAZS: Valid use case, but not added for now. If you say so I can add = it. - Is it necessary to describe P2 in terms of (presumably) NETCONF operations? I would prefer to have the document written in a protocol agnostic style. Perhaps simply drop "similar to the response of a operation/request". BALAZS: This is a reference both to NETCONF and RESTCONF. It was = explicitly asked for by other reviewers.=20 - P4: What is 'many'? Or did you want to use 'multiple'? BALAZS: OK, changed to multiple, * Instance Data File Format - Replace "real data" with instance data OLD "real data" that we want to document/provide. NEW instance data that we want to document/provide. BALAZS: OK - I do not understand that text about the default attribute. Section 4.8.9 defines a query parameter, not an attribute. And I do not know how that fits into content data. BALAZS: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8040#section-4.8.9: " If the "with-defaults" parameter is set to "report-all-tagged", then the server MUST adhere to the default-reporting behavior defined in Section 3.4 of [RFC6243]. Metadata is reported by the server as specified in Section 5.3. The XML encoding for the "default" attribute sent by the server for default nodes is defined in Section 6 of [RFC6243]. The JSON encoding for the "default" attribute MUST use the same values, as defined in [RFC6243], but encoded according to the rules in [RFC7952]. The module name "ietf-netconf-with-defaults" MUST be used for the "default" attribute. " Here the usage of the default ATTRIBUTE is defined. - Similarly, I do not understand why implementation specific metadata may be included in the content-data. This seems to be the wrong place, no? Should metadata not go into the header? BALAZS: As this might be meta-data about the individual instance=20 data nodes (e.g. metadata following the principles from rfc7952) it = belongs here. - Why MUST XML attributes be ignored, why is there no text about unknown JSON data, 'attributes' (or annotations)? What should implementations generally do about unknown elements, attributes, objects, arrays, ...)? Why are we specific about only one specific case? BALAZS: Generally we want to allow users/creators to decorate the data=20 with additional information, that is not standardized. Like YANG = extensions these may be useful, but at least should not cause problems. XML attributes are often used as meta-data and I was asked to list them specifically. It is not stated what an application should do with additional unknown = data=20 (XML elements, JSON data) that do not fit the above categories. Should = we say something about it?=20 IMHO no. We don't want to be too restrictive, as there are many = potential=20 users with different needs. We could state "Users of the instance data MAY discard any other unknown data". However that does not mean much.=20 - References may be helpful in this sentence since is not part of the original NETCONF specification: The content-data part will be very similar to the result returned for a NETCONF or for a RESTCONF get operation. BALAZS: OK: will add reference. It is unclear what "will be very similar" really means but perhaps this is clarified later. If not, this sentence says nothing in terms of a technical specification. - Does the following sentence imply that any additional data in an instance file renders the instance file useless? The content-data part MUST conform to the content-schema. BALAZS: Maybe not useless, but at least partly corrupt. - You first write that instance data MUST conform to the schema and two paragraphs later you state that instance data MAY be partial, i.e., it MAY NOT conform to the content-schema. Perhaps I have an idea what you wanted to say but the text that is written here is a contradiction. BALAZS: OK. I will correct it. The content-data part MUST conform to=20 the content-schema, while allowing for the exceptions listed below. - The introduction contains several MAYs and MUSTS that are not understandable yet and they do not seem to belong into an 'Introduction' in the first place. BALAZS: Section 2 Introduction 1 'may' " further instance data formats may be specified" I was specifically asked to include this. Why is this not = understandable?=20 Where should this be if not in the introduction chapter? Section 2 does not contain the word must.=20 Maybe I am not understanding your comment. - Why is EXTERNAL in all caps but Inline in capitalized form? In the YANG definitions, EXTERNAL seems to be uri. I think we reduce ambiguity by being consistent with how we name things. BALAZS: OK, EXTERNAL should not be all caps.=20 Here external means that the content-schema is defined externally=20 to the instance data set, not even a URI is included. - What is a 'real-life YANG module'? BALAZS: OK, will rephrase it.=20 - 3.1.1 How are the details specified in the anydata? Perhaps a forward reference might help. What are 'version labels'? BALAZS: Added reference to example. Version/Revision labels are defined in draft-verdt-netmod-yang-module-versioning;=20 added as a reference. I added them here (only as an example) as they are = highly relevant to specifying module versions even if they are not=20 agreed in Netmod yet. The name was changed from version-label to revision-label lately. - 3.1.2 What is a 'list of content'? Which revision is used? What about these 'version labels' here? BALAZS: You cut the sentence in half: List of content defining YANG = modules" The term "Content defining YANG module" is defined in the terminology section. In this case there is no possibility for using version/revision labels. People asked for a simple method. - 3.2 I do not understand the example. Has this been validated? As far as I can tell, the ietf-yang-library defines modules-state and not module-state. This inconsistency shows up multiple times. BALAZS: Corrected to modules-state - I like to understand why we need several methods to specify the schema. Having N solution is always bad for interoperability and also for maintainability. Perhaps the WG failed to reach consensus on a single solution. Or there are strong technical reasons - but then they should be clearly stated. What are implementations expected to support, all methods? Or whatever the implementer prefers? How do we achieve interoperability across tools? BALAZS: Different people in the WG wanted different solutions. - Some (as I remember you too) asked for a full flexible solution=20 which can use multiple modules potentially not even the=20 ietf-yang-library to define the schema (Inline solution) - some asked for a simple solution listing the content schema modules - some wanted just to use a reference (If any this is the one, I would remove) - some stated that they do not want to define the=20 content-schema at all because it is already known=20 So we ended up with 4 methods * Data Life Cycle - I am not sure the first paragraph is needed. BALAZS: OK removed - In the second paragraph, I like to see some discussion of snapshot consistency. How much consistency can be expected? Are there indicators for the level of consistency? I would remove the sentence about "valid values can be retrieved at run-time" as this is obvious but then I am not sure why 'valid' values? Perhaps the authors meant 'current' values? BALAZS: OK< Changed to current. I want to keep the second sentence=20 as it describes the duality between the original documented values and the current values that can be read in run-time. Consistency is out of scope. No indicators are provided. It is very=20 much use-case and implementation specific. - How do I implement the "SHOULD be described"? The default is that data can change, only in rare cases data is static. But how does a tool creating instance data know 'when and how' data changes in the future? I suggest to remove the SHOULD. The text saying that = instance data is a snapshot is in my view sufficient. BALAZS: We do not want to specify the how the changes should be = described,=20 But we do want to state that this information should be made available. Just a few ideas how this could be done. Provide - some plain text in the description of the instance data set - some additional metadata e.g. etags, timestamp for the individual data nodes. - a change indicator in the content defining yang module itself=20 - This section talks about YANG instance data but it likely should talk about YANG instance data sets. BALAZS: I think both are acceptable terms here. Naturally if the data changes=20 the data set containing it also changes. * Delivery of Instance Data - Why do we need this SHOULD? I do not think we should use RFC 2119 keywords to define how organizations may use the instance data format. My proposal is to delete this entire section. BALAZS: I will change it to lower case may. I was asked to and I want to state that we want to use instance data=20 both for offline delivery of design time information and for run-time delivery of other data. (The first 3 users of this format all want to use this for early = delivery of server capabilities. It is for now the dominant use case for which the =20 2119 SHOULD is important.).=20 * Backwards Compatibility - I do not think 'managed entity' is a YANG term. BALAZS: What term do you propose for something that is managed like=20 an interface or user etc. ? I was told managed entity is a generic term=20 that is commonly understood . Would "managed item" or "managed thing" be better? - I think this text is use case specific and the items are kind of conflicting with each other (2nd says changing the semantics of a list should lead to a change of the key while the 1st suggests that changing keys may lead to misinterpretation of something being new). - My proposal is to simply drop this entire section. If use case specific text is needed, add it to the use cases in the appendix. BALAZS: You don't know how many trouble reports we got in=20 multiple use-cases for violating these recommendations. While=20 they may not be important for all use-cases, the are important for many. Actually we met the problem or had to avoid it in all but one of=20 the listed use-cases. * YANG Model - How is the inline-content-schema feature used? Which component does indicate that inline content-schema is supported? Do all implementations have to support simplified-inline? If inline-schema is used, how do I find out which schema formats are supported? The more formats there are, the more interoperability issues will arise. Balazs: - case inline { is decorated with "if-feature inline-content-schema" - feature support is generally indicated as part of the = ietf-yang-library - simplified-inline is mandatory to support. It is relatively simple, so IMHO not a problem - what do you mean with schema-formats? The yang schema is not actually included anywhere. If the "inline" case is used, instance data corresponding to the=20 inline-modules is included, not the schema.=20 anydata inline-schema { description "Instance data corresponding to the YANG modules specified in the inline-module nodes defining the set of content defining YANG modules for this instance-data-set." * Security Considerations - "is designed as a wrapper" - what does this tell me? I suggest to rewrite the first paragraph and to remove this phrase or to explain what it means. - Why is the header part not security sensitive? Almost all data is security sensitive in certain situations. BALAZS: IMHO it is a valid and meaningful statement to differentiate=20 between security sensitive data like passwords and non-sensitive data=20 like a revision date. RFC8341 states: "One of the most important aspects of the data model documentation, and one of the biggest concerns during deployment, is the identification of security-sensitive content."=20 So the differentiation between sensitive and non-sensitive information = is important. In your opinion which part of the header data is sensitive? - I would prefer if the text would not use the phrase "result of a operation". As stated before, I like to see things written in protocol neutral forms. BALAZS: OK, I will change to the generic "read" operation as used by=20 RFC8341 (although for me is much more clear). - Since instance data files may require protection, is there any recommendation how to do this, e.g., by wrapping everything into a cryptographic message syntax or so? It would be important in certain use cases to be able to verify that instance data is authentic (i.e., it is signed by the original source). In other cases, it may be crucial to protect the instance data itself against occasional readers. BALAZS: File security is an important but really big topic and I was instructed by multiple people to avoid a half baked discussion on = the topic. - It may be useful to explain that data in instance data sets may have been filtered by access control rules like NACM and that data in instance data sets itself won't be filtered anymore by access control rules like NACM. In other words, if I take snapshots and stored them as instance data files, these snapshots may leak information that is otherwise protected. Hence it is important that NACM rules and file access control rules are consistent. BALAZS: We do not know if the instance data set was originally=20 filtered by NACM or not. We don't know if the users on=20 Netconf/Restconf/cli are the same as the users defined in the=20 file system., so I fear defining what consistent means would be = impossible.=20 It is stated that " The same kind of handling should be applied, that = would be needed for the result of a operation returning the same data." IMHO we can't really say more. --=20 Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 _______________________________________________ netmod mailing list netmod@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod ------=_NextPart_000_05A8_01D5E107.397C3640 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIVbjCCAyAw ggIIoAMCAQICAR0wDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQAwOTELMAkGA1UEBhMCRkkxDzANBgNVBAoTBlNvbmVy YTEZMBcGA1UEAxMQU29uZXJhIENsYXNzMiBDQTAeFw0wMTA0MDYwNzI5NDBaFw0yMTA0MDYwNzI5 NDBaMDkxCzAJBgNVBAYTAkZJMQ8wDQYDVQQKEwZTb25lcmExGTAXBgNVBAMTEFNvbmVyYSBDbGFz czIgQ0EwggEiMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4IBDwAwggEKAoIBAQCQF0o1ncrwDZbHRPoWN/xIvb1/ gC01O+FvqGepvwMcTYxvMkfVQWikEwTBNQyahEP8XB3/ibPoFxjNkV/7iePqv05dfBsm03V57eaE 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text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: telefonica.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 37267b52-7b69-4401-cf5e-08d7af1d0820 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 11 Feb 2020 18:05:51.9156 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 9744600e-3e04-492e-baa1-25ec245c6f10 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: QcRs3hTgRBGjAlTuOPrSZ2wGXRdJGIarF9qNAT6B9U2cXOCG+TIL/BQT/ZK6HzfC6ITW8XS4+baTm+zENZS+qq+Y5M5qkTQIvlI7HrySA27JzMnnL2yjqlpji79wNIKw X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM6PR06MB5142 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Question on how to design a Yang model to reflect auto-asignment of a give leaf X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 18:06:01 -0000 -----Mensaje original----- De: Martin Bjorklund Enviado el: martes, 11 de febrero de 2020 11:00 Para: Oscar Gonz=E1lez de Dios CC: opsawg@ietf.org; netmod@ietf.org Asunto: Re: [netmod] Question on how to design a Yang model to reflect auto= -asignment of a give leaf Hi, Oscar Gonz=E1lez de Dios wrote: > Dear OPSAWG and Netmod colleagues, > > During last IETF Opsawg meeting we raised a question (and > there was some discussion during the meeting) that we hav= e > found yet no good answer and we would like to discuss it = with > operations and Yang experts. > > The use case is the following: We have a yang module whic= h > holds certain optional leafs. The behaviors that we would= like > to have (and distinguish between them) are: > > > a) The user does not provide the value and such value is auto-assigned > by the system (a device (if it is a device module) or a controller (if > it is a network/service module)). I assume that this value not a static default value? [Oscar] True. Should the leaf have a default value, it implies that "if the= value is not set, the default value is taken". > b) The user does not provide a value and wants that such value IS NOT > set by the system (as assigning a value has implications). That is, > intentionally it is aimed at being left "empty" and should not be > expanded. So, either the value is set or should remain empty Do you mean that you want (a) and (b) at the same time for the same leaf? [Oscar] No. Depending on the leaf, we would like to specify behavior a or b= ehavior b. Behavior a is ok for most of the cases. The problem is that in = some cases, assigning a value has way more implications and the service wil= l not work properly. Those case are the ones we wanted to specifically tack= le. > What is the best way to model this behavior? I see that some yang > modules have added an "auto-assignment" leaf to express if > auto-assignment is desired or not. (hence, auto-assignment false, and > leaf not set, would do not assign). > > Which is the "default" rule for a leaf that is not set? It is that the > system is free to create it (via template or any means of > auto-assignment) or should leave it as is, that is, empty? > > In NMDA, the system is allowed to expand a given configuration. This > fact, in my personal view, implies that by "default" any system could > implement the "auto-assignment" behavior being compliant with > Neconf/Restconf/NMDA rules (but I am not sure if the interpretation is > correct). There are (at least) three ways to interpret "auto-assign". The client wri= tes to running, and then the server auto-assigns X: (a) in running (b) in intended (c) in the operational state (c) is uncontroversial and simple to implement in all servers, and simple t= o understand. [Oscar] agree (b) is allowed by NMDA but requires more of the server implementation; spec= ifically it requires the server to support that intended is different from = running. [Oscar] Agree . "Theoretically speaking" this is the behavior I would consi= der strictly follows NMDA guidelines. Reality is implementations are yet fa= r from this... (a) is not recommended in general; running should be fully owned by the cli= ent(s) and not modified by the server. [Oscar] Agree. [Oscar] So... what would be the best way to specify the behavior? Explicitl= y adding an auto-assign leaf to identify the behavior? Just "obey" NMDA rul= es? /martin > > Best Regards, > > =D3scar > > ________________________________ > > Este mensaje y sus adjuntos se dirigen exclusivamente a su > destinatario, puede contener informaci=F3n privilegiada o confidencial y > es para uso exclusivo de la persona o entidad de destino. Si no es > usted. el destinatario indicado, queda notificado de que la lectura, > utilizaci=F3n, divulgaci=F3n y/o copia sin autorizaci=F3n puede estar > prohibida en virtud de la legislaci=F3n vigente. Si ha recibido este > mensaje por error, le rogamos que nos lo comunique inmediatamente por > esta misma v=EDa y proceda a su destrucci=F3n. > > The information contained in this transmission is privileged and > confidential information intended only for the use of the individual > or entity named above. If the reader of this message is not the > intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, > distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. > If you have received this transmission in error, do not read it. > Please immediately reply to the sender that you have received this > communication in error and then delete it. > > Esta mensagem e seus anexos se dirigem exclusivamente ao seu > destinat=E1rio, pode conter informa=E7=E3o privilegiada ou confidencial e= =E9 > para uso exclusivo da pessoa ou entidade de destino. Se n=E3o =E9 vossa > senhoria o destinat=E1rio indicado, fica notificado de que a leitura, > utiliza=E7=E3o, divulga=E7=E3o e/ou c=F3pia sem autoriza=E7=E3o pode esta= r proibida > em virtude da legisla=E7=E3o vigente. Se recebeu esta mensagem por erro, > rogamos-lhe que nos o comunique imediatamente por esta mesma via e > proceda a sua destrui=E7=E3o ________________________________ Este mensaje y sus adjuntos se dirigen exclusivamente a su destinatario, pu= ede contener informaci=F3n privilegiada o confidencial y es para uso exclus= ivo de la persona o entidad de destino. Si no es usted. el destinatario ind= icado, queda notificado de que la lectura, utilizaci=F3n, divulgaci=F3n y/o= copia sin autorizaci=F3n puede estar prohibida en virtud de la legislaci= =F3n vigente. Si ha recibido este mensaje por error, le rogamos que nos lo = comunique inmediatamente por esta misma v=EDa y proceda a su destrucci=F3n. The information contained in this transmission is privileged and confidenti= al information intended only for the use of the individual or entity named = above. 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charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Adrian, The problem is that, as the leaf has a type, It would requ= ire to say which value of that type means "No value assigned". An alternati= ve could be a choice of "No value is assigned" (an empty type leaf?) or the= leaf with the type itself. Does this makes sense? Oscar De: Adrian Farrel Enviado el: martes, 11 de febrero de 2020 10:29 Para: Oscar Gonz=E1lez de Dios ; opsaw= g@ietf.org; netmod@ietf.org Asunto: RE: [netmod] Question on how to design a Yang model to reflect auto= -asignment of a give leaf Isn't it possible to handle case b) by defining a value to have the meaning= "no value has been assigned" and then the user an explicitly set that valu= e? Adrian From: netmod > On B= ehalf Of Oscar Gonz=E1lez de Dios Sent: 11 February 2020 02:40 To: opsawg@ietf.org; netmod@ietf.org Subject: [netmod] Question on how to design a Yang model to reflect auto-as= ignment of a give leaf Dear OPSAWG and Netmod colleagues, During last IETF Opsawg meeting we raised a question (and t= here was some discussion during the meeting) that we have found yet no good= answer and we would like to discuss it with operations and Yang experts. The use case is the following: We have a yang module which= holds certain optional leafs. The behaviors that we would like to have (an= d distinguish between them) are: a) The user does not provide the value and such value is auto-assigne= d by the system (a device (if it is a device module) or a controller (if i= t is a network/service module)). b) The user does not provide a value and wants that such value IS NOT = set by the system (as assigning a value has implications). That is, intenti= onally it is aimed at being left "empty" and should not be expanded. So, ei= ther the value is set or should remain empty What is the best way to model this behavior? I see that some yang modules h= ave added an "auto-assignment" leaf to express if auto-assignment is desire= d or not. (hence, auto-assignment false, and leaf not set, would do not as= sign). Which is the "default" rule for a leaf that is not set? It is that the syst= em is free to create it (via template or any means of auto-assignment) or s= hould leave it as is, that is, empty? In NMDA, the system is allowed to expand a given configuration. This fact, = in my personal view, implies that by "default" any system could implement = the "auto-assignment" behavior being compliant with Neconf/Restconf/NMDA ru= les (but I am not sure if the interpretation is correct). Best Regards, =D3scar ________________________________ Este mensaje y sus adjuntos se dirigen exclusivamente a su destinatario, pu= ede contener informaci=F3n privilegiada o confidencial y es para uso exclus= ivo de la persona o entidad de destino. Si no es usted. el destinatario ind= icado, queda notificado de que la lectura, utilizaci=F3n, divulgaci=F3n y/o= copia sin autorizaci=F3n puede estar prohibida en virtud de la legislaci= =F3n vigente. Si ha recibido este mensaje por error, le rogamos que nos lo = comunique inmediatamente por esta misma v=EDa y proceda a su destrucci=F3n. The information contained in this transmission is privileged and confidenti= al information intended only for the use of the individual or entity named = above. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are= hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this co= mmunication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission = in error, do not read it. Please immediately reply to the sender that you h= ave received this communication in error and then delete it. Esta mensagem e seus anexos se dirigem exclusivamente ao seu destinat=E1rio= , pode conter informa=E7=E3o privilegiada ou confidencial e =E9 para uso ex= clusivo da pessoa ou entidade de destino. Se n=E3o =E9 vossa senhoria o des= tinat=E1rio indicado, fica notificado de que a leitura, utiliza=E7=E3o, div= ulga=E7=E3o e/ou c=F3pia sem autoriza=E7=E3o pode estar proibida em virtude= da legisla=E7=E3o vigente. Se recebeu esta mensagem por erro, rogamos-lhe = que nos o comunique imediatamente por esta mesma via e proceda a sua destru= i=E7=E3o ________________________________ Este mensaje y sus adjuntos se dirigen exclusivamente a su destinatario, pu= ede contener informaci=F3n privilegiada o confidencial y es para uso exclus= ivo de la persona o entidad de destino. Si no es usted. el destinatario ind= icado, queda notificado de que la lectura, utilizaci=F3n, divulgaci=F3n y/o= copia sin autorizaci=F3n puede estar prohibida en virtud de la legislaci= =F3n vigente. Si ha recibido este mensaje por error, le rogamos que nos lo = comunique inmediatamente por esta misma v=EDa y proceda a su destrucci=F3n. The information contained in this transmission is privileged and confidenti= al information intended only for the use of the individual or entity named = above. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are= hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this co= mmunication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission = in error, do not read it. Please immediately reply to the sender that you h= ave received this communication in error and then delete it. Esta mensagem e seus anexos se dirigem exclusivamente ao seu destinat=E1rio= , pode conter informa=E7=E3o privilegiada ou confidencial e =E9 para uso ex= clusivo da pessoa ou entidade de destino. Se n=E3o =E9 vossa senhoria o des= tinat=E1rio indicado, fica notificado de que a leitura, utiliza=E7=E3o, div= ulga=E7=E3o e/ou c=F3pia sem autoriza=E7=E3o pode estar proibida em virtude= da legisla=E7=E3o vigente. Se recebeu esta mensagem por erro, rogamos-lhe = que nos o comunique imediatamente por esta mesma via e proceda a sua destru= i=E7=E3o --_000_AM6PR06MB56535AFC257EDE913125AD9EFD180AM6PR06MB5653eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Adri= an,

&n= bsp;

 &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;  The problem is that, as the leaf has a type,  It would requir= e to say which value of that type means “No value assigned”. An= alternative could be a choice of “No value is assigned” (an empty type leaf?) or the leaf with the type itself.  Does this ma= kes sense?

&n= bsp;

 &= nbsp;           &nbs= p;  Oscar

 

De: Adrian Farrel <adrian@oldd= og.co.uk>
Enviado el: martes, 11 de febrero de 2020 10:29
Para: Oscar Gonz=E1lez de Dios <oscar.gonzalezdedios@telefonica.c= om>; opsawg@ietf.org; netmod@ietf.org
Asunto: RE: [netmod] Question on how to design a Yang model to refle= ct auto-asignment of a give leaf

 

Isn’t it possible to hand= le case b) by defining a value to have the meaning “no value has been= assigned” and then the user an explicitly set that value?=

 

Adrian

 

From: netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.or= g> On Behalf Of Oscar Gonz=E1lez de Dios
Sent: 11 February 2020 02:40
To: opsawg@ietf.org; netmod@ietf.org
Subject: [netmod] Question on how to design a Yang model to reflect = auto-asignment of a give leaf

 

Dear OPSAWG and Netmod colleagu= es,

 

     &= nbsp;          During last IET= F Opsawg meeting we raised a question (and there was some discussion during= the meeting) that we have found yet no good answer and we would like to di= scuss it with operations and Yang experts.

 

     &= nbsp;          The use case is= the following:  We have a yang module which holds certain optional le= afs. The behaviors that we would like to have (and distinguish between them= ) are:

 

a= )   &= nbsp;   The user does not provi= de the value and such value is auto-assigned by the system (a  device = (if it is a device module) or a controller (if it is a network/service modu= le)).

b= )   &= nbsp;  The user does not provi= de a value and wants that such value IS NOT set by the system (as assigning= a value has implications). That is, intentionally it is aimed at being lef= t “empty” and should not be expanded. So, either the value is set or should remain empty

 

W= hat is the best way to model this behavior? I see that some yang modules ha= ve added an “auto-assignment” leaf to express if auto-assignmen= t is desired or not. (hence, auto-assignment false, and leaf not set, would  do not assign).

&= nbsp;

W= hich is the “default” rule for a leaf that is not set? It is th= at the system is free to create it (via template or any means of auto-assig= nment) or should leave it as is, that is, empty?

<= o:p> 

I= n NMDA, the system is allowed to expand a given configuration. This fact, i= n my personal view,  implies that by “default” any system = could implement the “auto-assignment” behavior being compliant with Neconf/Restconf/NMDA rules (but I am not sure if the interpretation i= s correct).

 

B= est Regards,

<= o:p> 

&= nbsp;           &nbs= p;   =D3scar

&nbs= p;


Este mensaje y sus adjuntos se dirigen exclusivamente a su destinatario, pu= ede contener informaci=F3n privilegiada o confidencial y es para uso exclus= ivo de la persona o entidad de destino. Si no es usted. el destinatario ind= icado, queda notificado de que la lectura, utilizaci=F3n, divulgaci=F3n y/o copia sin autorizaci=F3n puede e= star prohibida en virtud de la legislaci=F3n vigente. Si ha recibido este m= ensaje por error, le rogamos que nos lo comunique inmediatamente por esta m= isma v=EDa y proceda a su destrucci=F3n.

The information c= ontained in this transmission is privileged and confidential information in= tended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, = you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of = this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transm= ission in error, do not read it. Please immediately reply to the sender that you have received this communi= cation in error and then delete it.

Esta mensagem e s= eus anexos se dirigem exclusivamente ao seu destinat=E1rio, pode conter inf= orma=E7=E3o privilegiada ou confidencial e =E9 para uso exclusivo da pessoa ou entidade de destino. Se n=E3o =E9 vossa senhoria o = destinat=E1rio indicado, fica notificado de que a leitura, utiliza=E7=E3o, = divulga=E7=E3o e/ou c=F3pia sem autoriza=E7=E3o pode estar proibida em virt= ude da legisla=E7=E3o vigente. Se recebeu esta mensagem por erro, rogamos-lhe que nos o comunique imediatamente por esta mesma via= e proceda a sua destrui=E7=E3o



Este mensaje y sus adjuntos se dirigen exclusivamente a su destinatario, pu= ede contener informaci=F3n privilegiada o confidencial y es para uso exclus= ivo de la persona o entidad de destino. Si no es usted. el destinatario ind= icado, queda notificado de que la lectura, utilizaci=F3n, divulgaci=F3n y/o copia sin autorizaci=F3n puede e= star prohibida en virtud de la legislaci=F3n vigente. Si ha recibido este m= ensaje por error, le rogamos que nos lo comunique inmediatamente por esta m= isma v=EDa y proceda a su destrucci=F3n.

The information contained in this transmission is privileged and confidenti= al information intended only for the use of the individual or entity named = above. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are= hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If y= ou have received this transmission in error, do not read it. Please immedia= tely reply to the sender that you have received this communication in error= and then delete it.

Esta mensagem e seus anexos se dirigem exclusivamente ao seu destinat=E1rio= , pode conter informa=E7=E3o privilegiada ou confidencial e =E9 para uso ex= clusivo da pessoa ou entidade de destino. Se n=E3o =E9 vossa senhoria o des= tinat=E1rio indicado, fica notificado de que a leitura, utiliza=E7=E3o, divulga=E7=E3o e/ou c=F3pia sem autoriza=E7=E3o p= ode estar proibida em virtude da legisla=E7=E3o vigente. Se recebeu esta me= nsagem por erro, rogamos-lhe que nos o comunique imediatamente por esta mes= ma via e proceda a sua destrui=E7=E3o
 --_000_AM6PR06MB56535AFC257EDE913125AD9EFD180AM6PR06MB5653eurp_-- From nobody Tue Feb 11 23:48:36 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52731120041; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 23:48:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vaJQpx64-do0; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 23:48:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.tail-f.com (mail.tail-f.com [46.21.102.45]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2D3E120893; Tue, 11 Feb 2020 23:48:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (unknown [173.38.220.37]) by mail.tail-f.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id F12A81AE018C; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 08:48:24 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2020 08:47:45 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <20200212.084745.340561451697677336.mbj@tail-f.com> To: oscar.gonzalezdedios@telefonica.com Cc: opsawg@ietf.org, netmod@ietf.org From: Martin Bjorklund In-Reply-To: References: <20200211.105956.997059335051594687.mbj@tail-f.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 6.8 on Emacs 25.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Question on how to design a Yang model to reflect auto-asignment of a give leaf X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2020 07:48:34 -0000 Oscar Gonz=E1lez de Dios wrote: > = > = > -----Mensaje original----- > De: Martin Bjorklund > Enviado el: martes, 11 de febrero de 2020 11:00 > Para: Oscar Gonz=E1lez de Dios > CC: opsawg@ietf.org; netmod@ietf.org > Asunto: Re: [netmod] Question on how to design a Yang model to reflec= t > auto-asignment of a give leaf > = > Hi, > = > Oscar Gonz=E1lez de Dios wrote:= > > Dear OPSAWG and Netmod colleagues, > > > > During last IETF Opsawg meeting we raised a questio= n (and > > there was some discussion during the meeting) that = we have > > found yet no good answer and we would like to discu= ss it > > with > > operations and Yang experts. > > > > The use case is the following: We have a yang modul= e which > > holds certain optional leafs. The behaviors that we= would > > like > > to have (and distinguish between them) are: > > > > > > a) The user does not provide the value and such value is auto-assig= ned > > by the system (a device (if it is a device module) or a controller = (if > > it is a network/service module)). > = > I assume that this value not a static default value? > = > [Oscar] True. Should the leaf have a default value, it implies that > "if the value is not set, the default value is taken". > = > > b) The user does not provide a value and wants that such value IS N= OT > > set by the system (as assigning a value has implications). That is,= > > intentionally it is aimed at being left "empty" and should not be > > expanded. So, either the value is set or should remain empty > = > Do you mean that you want (a) and (b) at the same time for the same > leaf? > = > [Oscar] No. Depending on the leaf, we would like to specify behavior = a > or behavior b. Behavior a is ok for most of the cases. The problem i= s > that in some cases, assigning a value has way more implications and > the service will not work properly. Those case are the ones we wanted= > to specifically tackle. Ok. See below. > > What is the best way to model this behavior? I see that some yang > > modules have added an "auto-assignment" leaf to express if > > auto-assignment is desired or not. (hence, auto-assignment false, a= nd > > leaf not set, would do not assign). > > > > Which is the "default" rule for a leaf that is not set? It is that = the > > system is free to create it (via template or any means of > > auto-assignment) or should leave it as is, that is, empty? > > > > In NMDA, the system is allowed to expand a given configuration. Thi= s > > fact, in my personal view, implies that by "default" any system cou= ld > > implement the "auto-assignment" behavior being compliant with > > Neconf/Restconf/NMDA rules (but I am not sure if the interpretation= is > > correct). > = > There are (at least) three ways to interpret "auto-assign". The > client writes to running, and then the server auto-assigns X: > = > (a) in running > (b) in intended > (c) in the operational state > = > (c) is uncontroversial and simple to implement in all servers, and > simple to understand. > [Oscar] agree > = > (b) is allowed by NMDA but requires more of the server implementation= ; > specifically it requires the server to support that intended is > different from running. > [Oscar] Agree . "Theoretically speaking" this is the behavior I would= > consider strictly follows NMDA guidelines. Reality is implementations= > are yet far from this... > = > (a) is not recommended in general; running should be fully owned by > the client(s) and not modified by the server. > [Oscar] Agree. > = > [Oscar] So... what would be the best way to specify the behavior? > Explicitly adding an auto-assign leaf to identify the behavior? Just > "obey" NMDA rules? For your "auto-assignment" case, I would describe the behaviour in the description statement. Something like: "If this leaf has not been configured, the server will calculate a value [... specify how ... ] and use that value operationally. This calculated value is available in the operational state." = For your other case (the user really doesn't want a value) I also would document this in the description (unless it's obvious). /martin > = > = > /martin > = > = > = > > > > Best Regards, > > > > =D3scar > > > > ________________________________ > > > > Este mensaje y sus adjuntos se dirigen exclusivamente a su > > destinatario, puede contener informaci=F3n privilegiada o confidenc= ial y > > es para uso exclusivo de la persona o entidad de destino. Si no es > > usted. el destinatario indicado, queda notificado de que la lectura= , > > utilizaci=F3n, divulgaci=F3n y/o copia sin autorizaci=F3n puede est= ar > > prohibida en virtud de la legislaci=F3n vigente. Si ha recibido est= e > > mensaje por error, le rogamos que nos lo comunique inmediatamente p= or > > esta misma v=EDa y proceda a su destrucci=F3n. > > > > The information contained in this transmission is privileged and > > confidential information intended only for the use of the individua= l > > or entity named above. If the reader of this message is not the > > intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination,= > > distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibite= d. > > If you have received this transmission in error, do not read it. > > Please immediately reply to the sender that you have received this > > communication in error and then delete it. > > > > Esta mensagem e seus anexos se dirigem exclusivamente ao seu > > destinat=E1rio, pode conter informa=E7=E3o privilegiada ou confiden= cial e =E9 > > para uso exclusivo da pessoa ou entidade de destino. Se n=E3o =E9 v= ossa > > senhoria o destinat=E1rio indicado, fica notificado de que a leitur= a, > > utiliza=E7=E3o, divulga=E7=E3o e/ou c=F3pia sem autoriza=E7=E3o pod= e estar proibida > > em virtude da legisla=E7=E3o vigente. Se recebeu esta mensagem por = erro, > > rogamos-lhe que nos o comunique imediatamente por esta mesma via e > > proceda a sua destrui=E7=E3o > = > ________________________________ > = > Este mensaje y sus adjuntos se dirigen exclusivamente a su > destinatario, puede contener informaci=F3n privilegiada o confidencia= l y > es para uso exclusivo de la persona o entidad de destino. Si no es > usted. el destinatario indicado, queda notificado de que la lectura, > utilizaci=F3n, divulgaci=F3n y/o copia sin autorizaci=F3n puede estar= > prohibida en virtud de la legislaci=F3n vigente. Si ha recibido este > mensaje por error, le rogamos que nos lo comunique inmediatamente por= > esta misma v=EDa y proceda a su destrucci=F3n. > = > The information contained in this transmission is privileged and > confidential information intended only for the use of the individual > or entity named above. If the reader of this message is not the > intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, > distribution or copying of this communication is strictly > prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, do not > read it. Please immediately reply to the sender that you have receive= d > this communication in error and then delete it. > = > Esta mensagem e seus anexos se dirigem exclusivamente ao seu > destinat=E1rio, pode conter informa=E7=E3o privilegiada ou confidenci= al e =E9 > para uso exclusivo da pessoa ou entidade de destino. Se n=E3o =E9 vos= sa > senhoria o destinat=E1rio indicado, fica notificado de que a leitura,= > utiliza=E7=E3o, divulga=E7=E3o e/ou c=F3pia sem autoriza=E7=E3o pode = estar proibida > em virtude da legisla=E7=E3o vigente. Se recebeu esta mensagem por er= ro, > rogamos-lhe que nos o comunique imediatamente por esta mesma via e > proceda a sua destrui=E7=E3o > = From nobody Wed Feb 12 01:07:22 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62B7F1200A1 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 01:07:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=jacobsuniversity.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id E4i2dccqFOvY for ; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 01:07:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from EUR05-AM6-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-am6eur05on2056.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.22.56]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 55F33120044 for ; 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x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata: Yca5CzGeMOhtYnybCcnJ0QKwnyOUaNnYIui+khznbjkXfgAsESx915unfPCjsjTpJuLl+fgyg7rdYbF5yHLX5ZErsiqNcCPIi8cK88c2IUIn1ryG1TUnfcLXpO+bO8UKOQfBirmBzNG+DwtsR5+6lA== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: jacobs-university.de X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 8a2dbad6-4893-4ca3-a8df-08d7af9aedff X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 12 Feb 2020 09:07:05.2397 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: f78e973e-5c0b-4ab8-bbd7-9887c95a8ebd X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: cFX77SYrxLWhdGhIP6Uybq/0KCl+TifJjjnA7W4Ugj4QkhOtmcz+peY2+/JzL7P3xuTQkfbJqbhlB4tsXtz8CoG1ABlfrlYY7bto6y5LvUE= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: HE1P190MB0459 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] WG Last Call: draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format-06 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2020 09:07:20 -0000 Trimming things down where things are clear, not fixing the quoting problems... > * Abstract >=20 > I think we should avoid referring to some operation. Here is a > proposal of a rewrite: >=20 > OLD >=20 > running server available. This document specifies a standard file > format for YANG instance data (which follows the syntax and semantic > from existing YANG models, re-using the same format as the reply to a > operation/request) and annotates it with metadata. >=20 > NEW >=20 > running server available. This document specifies a standard file > format for YANG instance data, which follows the syntax and semantic > of existing YANG models, and annotates it with metadata. > BALAZS: Other have expressly asked for a reference to "get" but if you wa= nt > I can remove it. Thanks. So also further below... =20 > - I fail to see the difference between 'content-schema' and 'content > defining YANG module(s)'. The 'content-schema' is already a set of > YANG modules. I suggest to remove 'Content defining YANG module(s) > as it is not a necessary term. Rewrite all places where the phrase > 'content defining YANG modules' is used. > BALAZS: a schema is a full set of YANG modules needed to define the=20 > structure and properties of the instance data (+features, deviations). =20 > A "content defining YANG module" is an individual YANG module is=20 > part of the content-schema. So the difference is a set versus one item.=20 > I updated the description to emphasize this difference. OK. But then what is a non-content defining YANG module? Or are these schema-defining YANG modules? I still do not get why we need 'content defining YANG modules' - we did not need that in other specifications so far that define schemas. So why do we need new terms here? > - Is it necessary to describe P2 in terms of (presumably) NETCONF > operations? I would prefer to have the document written in a > protocol agnostic style. Perhaps simply drop "similar to the > response of a operation/request". > BALAZS: This is a reference both to NETCONF and RESTCONF. It was explicit= ly > asked for by other reviewers. Well, then the correct wording would be "similar to the response of a NETCONF operation or the RESTCONF response to a GET method invocation on the (unified) datastore resource". Sounds complex and I still prefer the text to be agnostic to specific operations - in particular since and the unified datastore have their limitations. The format is simply reusing the already defined data model encoding formats, i.e., the format has nothing to do with the operations used to retrieve the data. So I suggest: P2 Instance data shall reuse existing encoding rules for YANG defined data. There is no need to refer to specific protocol operations. > - I do not understand that text about the default attribute. Section > 4.8.9 defines a query parameter, not an attribute. And I do not > know how that fits into content data. > BALAZS: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8040#section-4.8.9: > " If the "with-defaults" parameter is set to "report-all-tagged", then > the server MUST adhere to the default-reporting behavior defined in > Section 3.4 of [RFC6243]. Metadata is reported by the server as > specified in Section 5.3. The XML encoding for the "default" > attribute sent by the server for default nodes is defined in > Section 6 of [RFC6243]. The JSON encoding for the "default" > attribute MUST use the same values, as defined in [RFC6243], but > encoded according to the rules in [RFC7952]. The module name > "ietf-netconf-with-defaults" MUST be used for the "default" > attribute. " > Here the usage of the default ATTRIBUTE is defined. I am still confused about terminology here, an attribute is an XML way of representing meta data, JSON does this differently. Perhaps some good examples would clear the confusion. > - Similarly, I do not understand why implementation specific > metadata may be included in the content-data. This seems to be the > wrong place, no? Should metadata not go into the header? > BALAZS: As this might be meta-data about the individual instance=20 > data nodes (e.g. metadata following the principles from rfc7952) it belo= ngs > here. OK, perhaps my confusion is that it was not clear to me what kind of metadata is meant here... =20 > - Why MUST XML attributes be ignored, why is there no text about > unknown JSON data, 'attributes' (or annotations)? What should > implementations generally do about unknown elements, attributes, > objects, arrays, ...)? Why are we specific about only one specific > case? > BALAZS: Generally we want to allow users/creators to decorate the data=20 > with additional information, that is not standardized. Like YANG extensio= ns > these may be useful, but at least should not cause problems. > XML attributes are often used as meta-data and I was asked to list them > specifically. >=20 > It is not stated what an application should do with additional unknown da= ta=20 > (XML elements, JSON data) that do not fit the above categories. Should w= e > say something about it?=20 > IMHO no. We don't want to be too restrictive, as there are many potential= =20 > users with different needs. We could state > "Users of the instance data MAY discard any other unknown data". > However that does not mean much. I do not understand why there are specific rules for XML encodings but not equivalent JSON rules. It looks like either the XML rules are not needed or equivalent JSON rules are missing if the XML rules are needed or there should be an explanation why the different encodings lead to different results (which is operationally rather surprising). If we want rules that apply to all encodings, they should be expressed in an encoding neutral way. The current text and your response leaves me puzzled what the specification really wants to say here. And do we have to say something at all? > It is unclear what "will be very similar" really means but perhaps > this is clarified later. If not, this sentence says nothing in > terms of a technical specification. So what is the meaning of "will be very similar"? > - The introduction contains several MAYs and MUSTS that are not > understandable yet and they do not seem to belong into an > 'Introduction' in the first place. > BALAZS: Section 2 Introduction 1 'may' > " further instance data formats may be specified" > I was specifically asked to include this. Why is this not understandable?= =20 > Where should this be if not in the introduction chapter? > Section 2 does not contain the word must.=20 > Maybe I am not understanding your comment. Hm, I do not recall what made me write this, so lets ignore this comment. =20 > - Why is EXTERNAL in all caps but Inline in capitalized form? In > the YANG definitions, EXTERNAL seems to be uri. I think we reduce > ambiguity by being consistent with how we name things. > BALAZS: OK, EXTERNAL should not be all caps.=20 > Here external means that the content-schema is defined externally=20 > to the instance data set, not even a URI is included. So if I have no case in the content-schema-spec choice, then it is external or how does this work? Perhaps define external differently? Another attempt: External method: Do not include the content-schema, the user needs to obtain the information through external documents. I removed "already known" since a tool and human producing an instance file will in general have no clue what a user of that instance file already knows. =20 > - 3.1.1 How are the details specified in the anydata? Perhaps a > forward reference might help. What are 'version labels'? > BALAZS: Added reference to example. > Version/Revision labels are defined in > draft-verdt-netmod-yang-module-versioning;=20 > added as a reference. I added them here (only as an example) as they are= =20 > highly relevant to specifying module versions even if they are not=20 > agreed in Netmod yet. The name was changed from version-label to > revision-label lately. Lets use a single term then, lets say "revision labels" if that is the most recent once. Right now, both terms seem to be used. > - I like to understand why we need several methods to specify the > schema. Having N solution is always bad for interoperability and > also for maintainability. Perhaps the WG failed to reach consensus > on a single solution. Or there are strong technical reasons - but > then they should be clearly stated. What are implementations > expected to support, all methods? Or whatever the implementer > prefers? How do we achieve interoperability across tools? > BALAZS: Different people in the WG wanted different solutions. > - Some (as I remember you too) asked for a full flexible solution=20 > which can use multiple modules potentially not even the=20 > ietf-yang-library to define the schema (Inline solution) > - some asked for a simple solution listing the content schema modules > - some wanted just to use a reference (If any this is the one, I would > remove) > - some stated that they do not want to define the=20 > content-schema at all because it is already known=20 > So we ended up with 4 methods But reaching consensus by doing all four is not necessarily cheap. So what are compliant tools required to implement. All 4 method? Whatever the implementer prefers? Or is there a mandatory to support method (other than external ;-)? The WG needs to understand the costs of having N ways to do the same thing. =20 > - In the second paragraph, I like to see some discussion of snapshot > consistency. How much consistency can be expected? Are there > indicators for the level of consistency? I would remove the > sentence about "valid values can be retrieved at run-time" as this > is obvious but then I am not sure why 'valid' values? Perhaps the > authors meant 'current' values? > BALAZS: OK< Changed to current. I want to keep the second sentence=20 > as it describes the duality between the original documented values and > the current values that can be read in run-time. > Consistency is out of scope. No indicators are provided. It is very=20 > much use-case and implementation specific. In this case, I think it helps to spell out that users cannot assume that instance data always represents consistent snapshots. > - How do I implement the "SHOULD be described"? The default is that > data can change, only in rare cases data is static. But how does a > tool creating instance data know 'when and how' data changes in the > future? I suggest to remove the SHOULD. The text saying that instance > data is a snapshot is in my view sufficient. > BALAZS: We do not want to specify the how the changes should be described= ,=20 > But we do want to state that this information should be made available. > Just a few ideas how this could be done. Provide > - some plain text in the description of the instance data set > - some additional metadata e.g. etags, timestamp for the individual data > nodes. > - a change indicator in the content defining yang module itself=20 I do not know how I implement such a SHOULD. I admit that I do not understand RFC 2119 language but a lowercase should would make me feel better. The concern here is that it is entirely implementation specific how I make this information available and hence whether I have followed the SHOULD or not is rather unclear. > - This section talks about YANG instance data but it likely should > talk about YANG instance data sets. > BALAZS: I think both are acceptable terms here. Naturally if the data > changes=20 > the data set containing it also changes. Well, yes, but the text says "instance data set's description statement", i.e., the change is documented on the set and not on an individual instance. But yes, this is a minor nit. > * Delivery of Instance Data >=20 > - Why do we need this SHOULD? I do not think we should use RFC 2119 > keywords to define how organizations may use the instance data > format. My proposal is to delete this entire section. > BALAZS: I will change it to lower case may. > I was asked to and I want to state that we want to use instance data=20 > both for offline delivery of design time information and for run-time > delivery of other data. But should this not be stated in the use cases and principles list in section 2? I think section 5 is a mixture of a use-case concern and a requirement (oops principle): PX: Instance data sets may be read from or produced by a live server [is YANG server the proper term?] or they can be the result of a specification or design effort that does not involve a live server. I think the essence of section 5 should be integrated into section 2. What it says seems misplaced in the middle of the document. (I personally prefer to talk about objectives rather than principles but that may be just me.) =20 > (The first 3 users of this format all want to use this for early delivery= of >=20 > server capabilities. It is for now the dominant use case for which the =20 > 2119 SHOULD is important.).=20 I do not think this specification should define SHOULDs for specific use cases. See my proposal for a possible PX to capture what I think is the core idea. > * Backwards Compatibility >=20 > - I do not think 'managed entity' is a YANG term. > BALAZS: What term do you propose for something that is managed like=20 > an interface or user etc. ? I was told managed entity is a generic term=20 > that is commonly understood . Would "managed item" or "managed thing" be > better? >=20 > - I think this text is use case specific and the items are kind of > conflicting with each other (2nd says changing the semantics of a > list should lead to a change of the key while the 1st suggests > that changing keys may lead to misinterpretation of something > being new). >=20 > - My proposal is to simply drop this entire section. If use case > specific text is needed, add it to the use cases in the appendix. > BALAZS: You don't know how many trouble reports we got in=20 > multiple use-cases for violating these recommendations. While=20 > they may not be important for all use-cases, the are important for many. > Actually we met the problem or had to avoid it in all but one of=20 > the listed use-cases. This text seems specific to certain use cases or best practices and as such I suggest to integrate it into the appendix C. I do not think this advice needs to be part of the technical instance data format specification. One could even argue that some of this also concerns config changes to live servers. My issue is that I find this discussion misplaced - I like to to see the format definition separated from any guidelines how to use it. =20 > * YANG Model >=20 > - How is the inline-content-schema feature used? Which component > does indicate that inline content-schema is supported? Do all > implementations have to support simplified-inline? If > inline-schema is used, how do I find out which schema formats are > supported? The more formats there are, the more interoperability > issues will arise. > Balazs: > - case inline { is decorated with "if-feature inline-content-schema" OK > - feature support is generally indicated as part of the ietf-yang-library OK > - simplified-inline is mandatory to support. It is relatively simple, so > IMHO not a problem How do I know whether the feature inline-content-schema is supported in this case? How much simplification is there really compared to the inline method if I only list modules in the yang library schema without derivations etc? See my earlier point about which schema formats are mandatory to implement and whether the simplification is worth the extra code and possible interoperability issues. > - what do you mean with schema-formats? The yang schema is not actually > included anywhere. > If the "inline" case is used, instance data corresponding to the=20 > inline-modules is included, not the schema.=20 > anydata inline-schema { > description > "Instance data corresponding to the YANG modules > specified in the inline-module nodes defining the set > of content defining YANG modules for this > instance-data-set." My understanding is that the inline-module indicates a variant of the yang library used and the inline-schema then follows that indicated yang library variant and provides the schema. Am I entirely wrong here? =20 > * Security Considerations >=20 > - "is designed as a wrapper" - what does this tell me? I suggest to > rewrite the first paragraph and to remove this phrase or to explain > what it means. >=20 > - Why is the header part not security sensitive? Almost all data is > security sensitive in certain situations. > BALAZS: IMHO it is a valid and meaningful statement to differentiate=20 > between security sensitive data like passwords and non-sensitive data=20 > like a revision date. RFC8341 states: > "One of the most important aspects of the data model documentation, > and one of the biggest concerns during deployment, is the > identification of security-sensitive content."=20 > So the differentiation between sensitive and non-sensitive information is > important. > In your opinion which part of the header data is sensitive? In today's world the idea of 'non-sensitive data' is rather difficult. The name of an instance-data-set can reveal information, the timestamp can be sensitive, the description can be sensitive, the combination can be sensitive. I find the claim that instance data may be sensive but the header part is not sensitive a very big claim. But since this section will also be read by SECDIR reviewers, we can see whether they will raise a point. I certainly would if I were a the assigned SECDIR reviewer. > - Since instance data files may require protection, is there any > recommendation how to do this, e.g., by wrapping everything into a > cryptographic message syntax or so? It would be important in > certain use cases to be able to verify that instance data is > authentic (i.e., it is signed by the original source). In other > cases, it may be crucial to protect the instance data itself > against occasional readers. > BALAZS: File security is an important but really big topic and > I was instructed by multiple people to avoid a half baked discussion on = the > topic. OK =20 > - It may be useful to explain that data in instance data sets may > have been filtered by access control rules like NACM and that data > in instance data sets itself won't be filtered anymore by access > control rules like NACM. In other words, if I take snapshots and > stored them as instance data files, these snapshots may leak > information that is otherwise protected. Hence it is important > that NACM rules and file access control rules are consistent. > BALAZS: We do not know if the instance data set was originally=20 > filtered by NACM or not. We don't know if the users on=20 > Netconf/Restconf/cli are the same as the users defined in the=20 > file system., so I fear defining what consistent means would be impossibl= e.=20 > It is stated that " The same kind of handling should be applied, that wou= ld > be needed for the result of a operation returning the same > data." IMHO we can't really say more. Yes, I guess what I was trying to say is that a live server may apply certain access control rules while instance files may not apply the same rules. In other words, an instance file obtained from a live server by joe and passed on to lucy may reveal information that lucy will not be allowed to see on the live server. By passing around instance files, information may accidentally leak. Yes, we can't solve this, put we can point this out. /js --=20 Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Wed Feb 12 16:30:32 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B07412001A; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 16:30:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tr2G8F1SLdD1; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 16:30:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.chopps.org (smtp.chopps.org [54.88.81.56]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4092B120019; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 16:30:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.206] (66-227-211-29.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com [66.227.211.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by smtp.chopps.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8A5F760B9E; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 00:30:24 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.40.2.2.4\)) From: Christian Hopps In-Reply-To: <155499006434.22705.5858614581630974980.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2020 19:30:23 -0500 Cc: Christian Hopps , The IESG , draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags@ietf.org, Joel Jaeggli , netmod-chairs@ietf.org, netmod@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <7F3B9E7F-6AD8-4801-AE60-9F2D704DC69B@chopps.org> References: <155499006434.22705.5858614581630974980.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> To: Alexey Melnikov X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.40.2.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Alexey Melnikov's Discuss on draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags-07: (with DISCUSS) X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2020 00:30:28 -0000 The intent in the document is to place as few restrictions on tags as = possible to allow for future-proofing and organic growth of use both = within and outside of SDOs. For standard tags we trust IANA (and the = human behind the process) to make the call on whether a tag is already = present. :) Having worked for a company where a lot of XML string data was non-ascii = I find limiting to ascii to be rather restrictive. Thanks, Chris. > On Apr 11, 2019, at 9:41 AM, Alexey Melnikov via Datatracker = wrote: >=20 > Alexey Melnikov has entered the following ballot position for > draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags-07: Discuss >=20 > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut = this > introductory paragraph, however.) >=20 >=20 > Please refer to = https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. >=20 >=20 > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags/ >=20 >=20 >=20 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > DISCUSS: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 > This is generally a fine document, but after checking RFC 7950 syntax = for > strings I question why you think you need non ASCII tags. There are so = many > problems that can arise from that. For example, how would IANA be able = to > enforce uniqueness of Unicode tags written in different Unicode > canonicalisation forms? >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 From nobody Wed Feb 12 16:58:59 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietf.org Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87A14120013; Wed, 12 Feb 2020 16:58:57 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: netmod@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.117.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: netmod@ietf.org Message-ID: <158155553744.17978.14732054697973027159@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2020 16:58:57 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [netmod] I-D Action: draft-ietf-netmod-factory-default-11.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2020 00:58:57 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Network Modeling WG of the IETF. Title : Factory Default Setting Authors : Qin Wu Balazs Lengyel Ye Niu Filename : draft-ietf-netmod-factory-default-11.txt Pages : 12 Date : 2020-02-12 Abstract: This document defines a method to reset a server to its factory default content. The reset operation may be used, e.g., when the existing configuration has major errors so re-starting the configuration process from scratch is the best option. A new "factory-reset" RPC is defined. When resetting a device, all previous configuration settings will be lost and replaced by the factory default content. A new optional "factory-default" read-only datastore is defined, that contains the factory default configuration for the device. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-factory-default/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netmod-factory-default-11 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netmod-factory-default-11 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-netmod-factory-default-11 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Thu Feb 13 05:10:29 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1C7F120058; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 05:10:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.72 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.72 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fastmail.fm header.b=p8rr1Lnk; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=aTHfTUsg Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wvEGd6SzwxJI; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 05:10:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from out4-smtp.messagingengine.com (out4-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.28]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A4AF5120013; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 05:10:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute7.internal (compute7.nyi.internal [10.202.2.47]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7883F22083; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 08:10:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from imap21 ([10.202.2.71]) by compute7.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 13 Feb 2020 08:10:23 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fastmail.fm; h= mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:from:to:cc :subject:content-type; s=fm2; bh=1Afr47SV1cLH7kn/oBHQx29/udiaUw8 Ka9iV52cNAvU=; b=p8rr1LnkjlplWwNMY/6LoY5eweXo7r0eV/aq2DqWQgf7Yez tBq5sEtrklL1PTAKXRiXusPfHk+v9sMX+L3IZmYwH9IZPKNs7Cy8CWGyMfSRmHTS OlCVt6kJrCKPsX760KgI1L0LliiCuFpO6vhEkppuvefM9RRkqY/d6c8zC+/ejY1q n3Rp2p3cpYWd9WQybCBhDesH0kMxiC/MoUf4gsjN7T6FXaLC92Y+0/3PTm7fOLpI 87vV+WgXqtfQcOIU+s+8XPizWHUZPa7IRVYj8fHEKNRMsVJhPGz0KwZ6DkvjSL+M 1Ai8Qdiy8NOKxpTgM1ng10Ej62ckFfxxqe2WOtA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=1Afr47 SV1cLH7kn/oBHQx29/udiaUw8Ka9iV52cNAvU=; b=aTHfTUsgK74DI24oHhD/Q9 MQ34NlxTek6s3IlOEgW+DiLVJlJoBV/iSULwrUKXShkhiLAigYQkGXOhc6qzwzdg VsPEw7rRd/fbcH1x7eblWPGsar72rCSCDPHO06n8Z28UYPP7yFJXALxrVFmApL+x mzTG/19FwDrLJFcfeKy7b4mKdr5z7FoivGCb47E/Fdjt2orR2RdslgheNcMMFgBx sys3MoF1+G6IK9QsOBH9hx9JMD1F2qT0liTugcxEH/jXLp7EAT6rl7aNo8bAwtc0 6TTWI1xIFcUBwy9lqgjQ2eTHHDCfaO45LbMmODLkDFcnbKUwdsA6Hu9yjCasmjXg == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedugedrieekgdegkecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenuc fjughrpefofgggkfgjfhffhffvufgtsehttdertderreejnecuhfhrohhmpedftehlvgig vgihucfovghlnhhikhhovhdfuceorggrmhgvlhhnihhkohhvsehfrghsthhmrghilhdrfh hmqeenucffohhmrghinhepihgvthhfrdhorhhgnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptden ucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomheprggrmhgvlhhnihhkohhvsehfrghsthhmrghilh drfhhm X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id F3A3B660069; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 08:10:22 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.1.7-802-g7a41c81-fmstable-20200203v1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <2ee6b71c-bd2c-4676-9e14-cb240c6845c9@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <7F3B9E7F-6AD8-4801-AE60-9F2D704DC69B@chopps.org> References: <155499006434.22705.5858614581630974980.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7F3B9E7F-6AD8-4801-AE60-9F2D704DC69B@chopps.org> Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2020 13:10:02 +0000 From: "Alexey Melnikov" To: "Christian Hopps" Cc: "The IESG" , draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags@ietf.org, "Joel Jaeggli" , netmod-chairs@ietf.org, netmod@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] =?utf-8?q?Alexey_Melnikov=27s_Discuss_on_draft-ietf-net?= =?utf-8?q?mod-module-tags-07=3A_=28with_DISCUSS=29?= X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2020 13:10:27 -0000 Hi Christian, On Thu, Feb 13, 2020, at 12:30 AM, Christian Hopps wrote: > The intent in the document is to place as few restrictions on tags as > possible to allow for future-proofing and organic growth of use both > within and outside of SDOs. For standard tags we trust IANA (and the > human behind the process) to make the call on whether a tag is already > present. :) And the problem with that is that because there might be multiple ways to encode in Unicode visually indistinguishable tags IANA would end up asking IESG for help. So you need to at minimum specify a Unicode normalization form to use. I suggest you normatively reference RFC 5198 here. > Having worked for a company where a lot of XML string data was > non-ascii I find limiting to ascii to be rather restrictive. Best Regards, Alexey > > Thanks, > Chris. > > > On Apr 11, 2019, at 9:41 AM, Alexey Melnikov via Datatracker wrote: > > > > Alexey Melnikov has entered the following ballot position for > > draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags-07: Discuss > > > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > > > > Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > > > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags/ > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > DISCUSS: > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > This is generally a fine document, but after checking RFC 7950 syntax for > > strings I question why you think you need non ASCII tags. There are so many > > problems that can arise from that. For example, how would IANA be able to > > enforce uniqueness of Unicode tags written in different Unicode > > canonicalisation forms? > > > > > > > > > > From nobody Thu Feb 13 05:40:24 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BC771200FA for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 05:40:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.002 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.002 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aBdItlHmugXx for ; 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charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable See below as BALAZS2. -----Original Message----- From: Sch=F6nw=E4lder, J=FCrgen =20 Sent: 2020. febru=E1r 12., szerda 10:07 To: Bal=E1zs Lengyel Cc: Kent Watsen ; NETMOD Working Group Subject: [Not Scanned] - Re: [netmod] WG Last Call: draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format-06 > - I fail to see the difference between 'content-schema' and 'content > defining YANG module(s)'. The 'content-schema' is already a set of > YANG modules. I suggest to remove 'Content defining YANG module(s) > as it is not a necessary term. Rewrite all places where the phrase > 'content defining YANG modules' is used. > BALAZS: a schema is a full set of YANG modules needed to define the=20 > structure and properties of the instance data (+features, deviations). > A "content defining YANG module" is an individual YANG module is part = > of the content-schema. So the difference is a set versus one item. > I updated the description to emphasize this difference. OK. But then what is a non-content defining YANG module? Or are these schema-defining YANG modules? I still do not get why we need 'content defining YANG modules' - we did not need that in other specifications so = far that define schemas. So why do we need new terms here? BALAZS2: In some paragraphs I reference individual YANG modules that are part of the content-schema. What would be a better term for the = individual modules? > - Is it necessary to describe P2 in terms of (presumably) NETCONF > operations? I would prefer to have the document written in a > protocol agnostic style. Perhaps simply drop "similar to the > response of a operation/request". > BALAZS: This is a reference both to NETCONF and RESTCONF. It was=20 > explicitly asked for by other reviewers. Well, then the correct wording would be "similar to the response of a NETCONF operation or the RESTCONF response to a GET method = invocation on the (unified) datastore resource". Sounds complex and I still prefer = the text to be agnostic to specific operations - in particular since = and the unified datastore have their limitations. The format is simply = reusing the already defined data model encoding formats, i.e., the format has nothing to do with the operations used to retrieve the data. So I = suggest: P2 Instance data shall reuse existing encoding rules for YANG defined data.=20 There is no need to refer to specific protocol operations. BALAZS: I will use both of your texts. That is the most common question = I get: Will this use the same format as a get-reply? People like to think = in terms of a specific easy-to-grasp function instead of a non-descript set = of "existing" rules. Existing means you need to understand X number of = RFCs, while just looking up a get-reply is easy. It is not precise, but IMHO that's how people think.=20 > - I do not understand that text about the default attribute. Section > 4.8.9 defines a query parameter, not an attribute. And I do not > know how that fits into content data. > BALAZS: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8040#section-4.8.9: > " If the "with-defaults" parameter is set to "report-all-tagged", then > the server MUST adhere to the default-reporting behavior defined in > Section 3.4 of [RFC6243]. Metadata is reported by the server as > specified in Section 5.3. The XML encoding for the "default" > attribute sent by the server for default nodes is defined in > Section 6 of [RFC6243]. The JSON encoding for the "default" > attribute MUST use the same values, as defined in [RFC6243], but > encoded according to the rules in [RFC7952]. The module name > "ietf-netconf-with-defaults" MUST be used for the "default" > attribute. " > Here the usage of the default ATTRIBUTE is defined. I am still confused about terminology here, an attribute is an XML way = of representing meta data, JSON does this differently. Perhaps some good examples would clear the confusion. BALAZS2: The Restconf RFC uses the exact term " the default attribute". = If it is acceptable there IMHO I should be able to reuse it here. It is not = my terminology it's from RFC 8040.=20 > - Similarly, I do not understand why implementation specific > metadata may be included in the content-data. This seems to be the > wrong place, no? Should metadata not go into the header? > BALAZS: As this might be meta-data about the individual instance data=20 > nodes (e.g. metadata following the principles from rfc7952) it=20 > belongs here. OK, perhaps my confusion is that it was not clear to me what kind of metadata is meant here... BALAZS2: OK., will try to update, clarify the text. =20 > - Why MUST XML attributes be ignored, why is there no text about > unknown JSON data, 'attributes' (or annotations)? What should > implementations generally do about unknown elements, attributes, > objects, arrays, ...)? Why are we specific about only one specific > case? > BALAZS: Generally we want to allow users/creators to decorate the=20 > data with additional information, that is not standardized. Like YANG=20 > extensions these may be useful, but at least should not cause = problems. > XML attributes are often used as meta-data and I was asked to list=20 > them specifically. >=20 I do not understand why there are specific rules for XML encodings but = not equivalent JSON rules. It looks like either the XML rules are not needed = or equivalent JSON rules are missing if the XML rules are needed or there should be an explanation why the different encodings lead to different results (which is operationally rather surprising). BALAZS2:XML has 2 distinct ways to encode information XML attributes and elements. JSON only has one uniform way. XML attributes are often used = to carry metadata which is a useful facility and they are not used to = encode "real" YANG defined data. So we want to allow the use of XML attributes = and not go for a least common denominator of the 2 encodings. IMHO it is a useful facility, IMHO it belongs here, but if you insist I can remove = it. If we want rules that apply to all encodings, they should be expressed = in an encoding neutral way. The current text and your response leaves me = puzzled what the specification really wants to say here. And do we have to say something at all? > It is unclear what "will be very similar" really means but perhaps > this is clarified later. If not, this sentence says nothing in > terms of a technical specification. So what is the meaning of "will be very similar"? BALAZS: Similar means same structure, same data types, but there will = also be differences, like the additional metadata and allowing partial data, ignoring of some constraints that are listed in the chapter. As this is = not a precise term I will use it only in the introduction chapter = (principles).=20 > - Why is EXTERNAL in all caps but Inline in capitalized form? In > the YANG definitions, EXTERNAL seems to be uri. I think we reduce > ambiguity by being consistent with how we name things. > BALAZS: OK, EXTERNAL should not be all caps.=20 > Here external means that the content-schema is defined externally to=20 > the instance data set, not even a URI is included. So if I have no case in the content-schema-spec choice, then it is = external or how does this work? Perhaps define external differently? Another attempt: External method: Do not include the content-schema, the user needs to = obtain the information through external documents. I removed "already known" since a tool and human producing an instance = file will in general have no clue what a user of that instance file already knows. BALAZS: OK =20 > - 3.1.1 How are the details specified in the anydata? Perhaps a > forward reference might help. What are 'version labels'? > BALAZS: Added reference to example. > Version/Revision labels are defined in=20 > draft-verdt-netmod-yang-module-versioning; > added as a reference. I added them here (only as an example) as they=20 > are highly relevant to specifying module versions even if they are not = > agreed in Netmod yet. The name was changed from version-label to=20 > revision-label lately. Lets use a single term then, lets say "revision labels" if that is the = most recent once. Right now, both terms seem to be used. BALAZS: OK > - I like to understand why we need several methods to specify the > schema. Having N solution is always bad for interoperability and > also for maintainability. Perhaps the WG failed to reach consensus > on a single solution. Or there are strong technical reasons - but > then they should be clearly stated. What are implementations > expected to support, all methods? Or whatever the implementer > prefers? How do we achieve interoperability across tools? > BALAZS: Different people in the WG wanted different solutions. > - Some (as I remember you too) asked for a full flexible solution=20 > which can use multiple modules potentially not even the=20 > ietf-yang-library to define the schema (Inline solution) > - some asked for a simple solution listing the content schema modules > - some wanted just to use a reference (If any this is the one, I would > remove) > - some stated that they do not want to define the content-schema at=20 > all because it is already known So we ended up with 4 methods But reaching consensus by doing all four is not necessarily cheap. So = what are compliant tools required to implement. All 4 method? Whatever the implementer prefers? Or is there a mandatory to support = method (other than external ;-)? The WG needs to understand the costs of having = N ways to do the same thing. BALAZS: 2 methods are mandatory: Simplified-Inline & URI.=20 Inline is controlled by a feature, so it is optional. =20 External is inherently optional, as whatever is outside this = specification is undefined thus it may or may not be supported. =20 > - In the second paragraph, I like to see some discussion of snapshot > consistency. How much consistency can be expected? Are there > indicators for the level of consistency? I would remove the > sentence about "valid values can be retrieved at run-time" as this > is obvious but then I am not sure why 'valid' values? Perhaps the > authors meant 'current' values? > BALAZS: OK< Changed to current. I want to keep the second sentence as=20 > it describes the duality between the original documented values and =20 > the current values that can be read in run-time. > Consistency is out of scope. No indicators are provided. It is very=20 > much use-case and implementation specific. In this case, I think it helps to spell out that users cannot assume = that instance data always represents consistent snapshots. BALAZS2: I would like to avoid the topic. We never stated anything about = the quality of data in the instance data set.=20 E.g. if this is a snapshot of state data and it takes time to create a snapshot, data might change even=20 during creating the snapshot. This is not described here or in Netconf = or in Restconf.=20 Why should we describe this in more details than the protocols. > - How do I implement the "SHOULD be described"? The default is that > data can change, only in rare cases data is static. But how does a > tool creating instance data know 'when and how' data changes in = the > future? I suggest to remove the SHOULD. The text saying that = instance > data is a snapshot is in my view sufficient. > BALAZS: We do not want to specify the how the changes should be=20 > described, But we do want to state that this information should be = made available. > Just a few ideas how this could be done. Provide > - some plain text in the description of the instance data set > - some additional metadata e.g. etags, timestamp for the individual=20 > data nodes. > - a change indicator in the content defining yang module itself I do not know how I implement such a SHOULD. I admit that I do not understand RFC 2119 language but a lowercase should would make me feel better. The concern here is that it is entirely implementation specific = how I make this information available and hence whether I have followed the SHOULD or not is rather unclear. BALAZS: OK, lowercase should > * Delivery of Instance Data >=20 > - Why do we need this SHOULD? I do not think we should use RFC 2119 > keywords to define how organizations may use the instance data > format. My proposal is to delete this entire section. > BALAZS: I will change it to lower case may. > I was asked to and I want to state that we want to use instance data=20 > both for offline delivery of design time information and for run-time=20 > delivery of other data. But should this not be stated in the use cases and principles list in section 2? I think section 5 is a mixture of a use-case concern and a requirement (oops principle): PX: Instance data sets may be read from or produced by a live server [is YANG server the proper term?] or they can be the result of a specification or design effort that does not involve a live server. I think the essence of section 5 should be integrated into section 2. What it says seems misplaced in the middle of the document. (I = personally prefer to talk about objectives rather than principles but that may be = just me.) BALAZS: OK, I will move it into chapter 2 Introduction. This is really = not something mandatory on the implementation. =20 > (The first 3 users of this format all want to use this for early=20 > delivery of >=20 > server capabilities. It is for now the dominant use case for which the > 2119 SHOULD is important.).=20 I do not think this specification should define SHOULDs for specific use cases. See my proposal for a possible PX to capture what I think is the = core idea. BALAZS2: OK, SHOULD change to lower case may. > * Backwards Compatibility >=20 > - I do not think 'managed entity' is a YANG term. > BALAZS: What term do you propose for something that is managed like an = > interface or user etc. ? I was told managed entity is a generic term=20 > that is commonly understood . Would "managed item" or "managed thing"=20 > be better? >=20 > - I think this text is use case specific and the items are kind of > conflicting with each other (2nd says changing the semantics of a > list should lead to a change of the key while the 1st suggests > that changing keys may lead to misinterpretation of something > being new). >=20 > - My proposal is to simply drop this entire section. If use case > specific text is needed, add it to the use cases in the appendix. > BALAZS: You don't know how many trouble reports we got in multiple=20 > use-cases for violating these recommendations. While they may not be=20 > important for all use-cases, the are important for many. > Actually we met the problem or had to avoid it in all but one of the=20 > listed use-cases. This text seems specific to certain use cases or best practices and as = such I suggest to integrate it into the appendix C. I do not think this = advice needs to be part of the technical instance data format specification. = One could even argue that some of this also concerns config changes to live servers. My issue is that I find this discussion misplaced - I like to = to see the format definition separated from any guidelines how to use it. BALAZS2: I still see this as important as proved by real life situations = and also as a n explicit request from the Yang versioning requirements = draft. The text is specific to some use cases: In practice relevant to 90% of = the use cases. =20 =20 > * YANG Model >=20 > - How is the inline-content-schema feature used? Which component > does indicate that inline content-schema is supported? Do all > implementations have to support simplified-inline? If > inline-schema is used, how do I find out which schema formats are > supported? The more formats there are, the more interoperability > issues will arise. > Balazs: > - case inline { is decorated with "if-feature inline-content-schema" OK > - feature support is generally indicated as part of the=20 > ietf-yang-library OK > - simplified-inline is mandatory to support. It is relatively simple,=20 > so IMHO not a problem How do I know whether the feature inline-content-schema is supported in = this case? BALAZS2: IMHO your question is out of scope for this draft.=20 Just like for any feature you can read it on-line from = ietf-yang-library. If the information is needed offline it can be documented in any design = time document. My proposal is to use an instance data file based on ietf-yang-library using the simplified-inline schema declaration method. How much simplification is there really compared to the inline method if = I only list modules in the yang library schema without derivations etc? = See my earlier point about which schema formats are mandatory to implement and whether the simplification is worth the extra code and possible interoperability issues. BALAZS2: Compare: INLINE method: ietf-yang-library@2016-06-21 ietf-yang-library 2016-06-21 ietf-netconf-monitoring 2010-10-04 SIMPLIFIED INLINE method: ietf-yang-library@2020-01-14 ietf-netconf-monitoring@2020-01-14 > - what do you mean with schema-formats? The yang schema is not=20 > actually included anywhere. > If the "inline" case is used, instance data corresponding to the=20 > inline-modules is included, not the schema. > anydata inline-schema { > description > "Instance data corresponding to the YANG modules > specified in the inline-module nodes defining the set > of content defining YANG modules for this > instance-data-set." My understanding is that the inline-module indicates a variant of the = yang library used and the inline-schema then follows that indicated yang = library variant and provides the schema. Am I entirely wrong here? BALAZS2: You are correct. Some extras: Inline-module could indicate some other module instead of the = yang-library. I was asked to do this earlier by Rob Wilton.=20 There can be multiple inline-modules so we can use yang-lib with = extensions like a module adding revision-labels =20 > - It may be useful to explain that data in instance data sets may > have been filtered by access control rules like NACM and that data > in instance data sets itself won't be filtered anymore by access > control rules like NACM. In other words, if I take snapshots and > stored them as instance data files, these snapshots may leak > information that is otherwise protected. Hence it is important > that NACM rules and file access control rules are consistent. > BALAZS: We do not know if the instance data set was originally=20 > filtered by NACM or not. We don't know if the users on=20 > Netconf/Restconf/cli are the same as the users defined in the file=20 > system., so I fear defining what consistent means would be impossible. > It is stated that " The same kind of handling should be applied, that would > be needed for the result of a operation returning the same > data." IMHO we can't really say more. Yes, I guess what I was trying to say is that a live server may apply certain access control rules while instance files may not apply the same rules. In other words, an instance file obtained from a live server by = joe and passed on to lucy may reveal information that lucy will not be = allowed to see on the live server. By passing around instance files, information = may accidentally leak. Yes, we can't solve this, put we can point this out. BALAZS2: I agree fully, but file security is a really big topic, so highlighting some areas will not help people. I added: Care should be taken, when copying the original files or providing=20 file access for additional users, not to reveal information unintentionally.=20 /js --=20 Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 ------=_NextPart_000_06D4_01D5E27B.7F51F4F0 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIVbjCCAyAw ggIIoAMCAQICAR0wDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQAwOTELMAkGA1UEBhMCRkkxDzANBgNVBAoTBlNvbmVy YTEZMBcGA1UEAxMQU29uZXJhIENsYXNzMiBDQTAeFw0wMTA0MDYwNzI5NDBaFw0yMTA0MDYwNzI5 NDBaMDkxCzAJBgNVBAYTAkZJMQ8wDQYDVQQKEwZTb25lcmExGTAXBgNVBAMTEFNvbmVyYSBDbGFz czIgQ0EwggEiMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4IBDwAwggEKAoIBAQCQF0o1ncrwDZbHRPoWN/xIvb1/ gC01O+FvqGepvwMcTYxvMkfVQWikEwTBNQyahEP8XB3/ibPoFxjNkV/7iePqv05dfBsm03V57eaE 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b9w4B7Us0A1UuNbPIT63hvnBEte/K1/YKfNPdpRCpMU5CYYkjB2fcgOoKs35AAAAAAAA ------=_NextPart_000_06D4_01D5E27B.7F51F4F0-- From nobody Thu Feb 13 06:48:48 2020 Return-Path: <010001703f060085-7c6a3183-7f9f-4706-9be3-f64d9ea40fca-000000@amazonses.watsen.net> X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEDB61200E0 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 06:48:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=amazonses.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zUqB863ZMPB6 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 06:48:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from a48-90.smtp-out.amazonses.com (a48-90.smtp-out.amazonses.com [54.240.48.90]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 70448120013 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 06:48:45 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/simple; s=6gbrjpgwjskckoa6a5zn6fwqkn67xbtw; d=amazonses.com; t=1581605324; h=From:Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:Message-Id:Date:To:Feedback-ID; bh=++ZT58T4XsQ0J3/2Cg23SjXzmrSeQcxewrzJhNxhTx4=; b=LY7m2xqMkA2l1ktyJJWrexdQGa5eJxjBLC5td6VAGUtw1/4uwx7FRkpX8mazxyJG 19GU3eLK9UhP+2CHfjmccHQKbx340fxPTXJc7110Lcm9XZedMWxh6VxPKeigQLwe9Ew gdJZ2ziBvlRDbO5bmghPsufGLVC/+IRfwBVsuzKM= From: Kent Watsen Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_5B0C9715-7FEE-4B7D-9A60-E724908E8C65" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Message-ID: <010001703f060085-7c6a3183-7f9f-4706-9be3-f64d9ea40fca-000000@email.amazonses.com> Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2020 14:48:42 +0000 To: "netmod@ietf.org" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-SES-Outgoing: 2020.02.13-54.240.48.90 Feedback-ID: 1.us-east-1.DKmIRZFhhsBhtmFMNikgwZUWVrODEw9qVcPhqJEI2DA=:AmazonSES Archived-At: Subject: [netmod] Implicit case statementa X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2020 14:48:47 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_5B0C9715-7FEE-4B7D-9A60-E724908E8C65 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 RFC 7950 says: As a shorthand, the "case" statement can be omitted if the branch contains a single "anydata", "anyxml", "choice", "container", "leaf", "list", or "leaf-list" statement. In this case, the case node still exists in the schema tree, and its identifier is the same as the identifier of the child node. This seems clear, albeit incomplete, as inconsistencies [1] exist = amongst `pyang`and `yanglint` (I did not test with `yangson`) in how the = =E2=80=9Cif-feature=E2=80=9D statement is handled, though I imagine = other statements (e.g., =E2=80=9Cwhen=E2=80=9D) may also fall into this = discussion as well. Ultimately, the question is what Errata and/or YANG-next issue should be = filed. I=E2=80=99m okay either way, so long as it=E2=80=99s clear and = can be implemented consistently across tooling. In the meanwhile, I recommend module designers avoid using the shorthand = notation, as there are no known issues with the =E2=80=9Clonghand=E2=80=9D= notation. [1] https://github.com/mbj4668/pyang/issues/559 Kent // contributor --Apple-Mail=_5B0C9715-7FEE-4B7D-9A60-E724908E8C65 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 

RFC 7950 says:

   As =
a shorthand, the "case" statement can be omitted if the branch
   contains a single "anydata", "anyxml", "choice", "container", "leaf",
   "list", or "leaf-list" statement.  In this case, the case node still
   exists in the schema tree, and its identifier is the same as the
   identifier of the child node.

This seems =
clear, albeit incomplete, as inconsistencies [1] =
exist amongst `pyang`and `yanglint` (I did not test =
with `yangson`) in how the =E2=80=9Cif-feature=E2=80=9D =
statement is handled, though I imagine other statements (e.g., =
=E2=80=9Cwhen=E2=80=9D) may also fall into this discussion as =
well.

Ultimately, the question is what =
Errata and/or YANG-next issue should be filed.   I=E2=80=99m okay =
either way, so long as it=E2=80=99s clear and can be implemented =
consistently across tooling.

In the =
meanwhile, I recommend module designers avoid using the shorthand =
notation, as there are no known issues with the =E2=80=9Clonghand=E2=80=9D=
 notation.

[1] https://github.com/mbj4668/pyang/issues/559

Kent // contributor


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x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: k24+oE2l6zzKgVM7aQVIaTIEeBFRvg7kbRIuOhglOC7gAjz/UQQ/51C73Do8M2CC/j5uZgvvoUbT7mvnqauVflmMZuiG3KHhgmZs5VvU/j1XIytInZzKRfvzRPic35wmwtK6Xtuxe9x9Z2MVT9Ck2fShKSg2uL0U/eeAbfGcjq4/kZpi0JBU2euZtgDwqIHL9L6arJmmgMImnxnYbChIkkFfpUDaanZxBXclMIiffS63038VvOYF3SRQ2qhyqNVihZhayi4X9ljIm+2TkZWkxeJb77LXeXfk4+R+Xxp5c5L4j1Tc0u7SI3Tc8AlP6ns5KLuRmfSt/uLK47AS0x0l9YsQ1tgN4eoW6pndc+VWk/mKMxsZ2r3zuZlQ5BCKBp27rIeZA2QSWuVZGJsy8dXol/Y6wOBN3lZbSUcLDv5Z2qPr+XtK1l9ut8Ql2XMIQEd03lFKTxK860e4oNQ2/bOQSyC5WNmulrUuu6f2Nra9vzXkh/OAZxBUQG5ROuL5UyTGg5G3w+/4b5KGoLuUq6RavA== x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata: 8Hj5TsxzDyvzzZxdjrHDf+4fl9BqEWrBdNFO3xbC7OPBaLef1rXEdxkloB1z8qtoY6gAnrqOSE+qfBhI34PyGlyi28ve9drr6XMdN0vyN/VCkvRNIN9pLdZPyzlbrm1xbDBH3CqMbG39JmPO+c6muQ== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: jacobs-university.de X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 9f40dd62-3264-40c2-7edf-08d7b0b3fd1d X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 13 Feb 2020 18:38:59.0036 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: f78e973e-5c0b-4ab8-bbd7-9887c95a8ebd X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: Nv8gEe/ydUnCMqynJxejajal/HxC4M4uwjBGSTeRpuBjaiZ3KvlJ/yF8VCXlBpY8X2oKZDKArvJX9rq5t3U/48ntwc+RLj5N4lQjZEKwKRI= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB6P190MB0278 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Alexey Melnikov's Discuss on draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags-07: (with DISCUSS) X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2020 18:39:09 -0000 And a longer term solution might be to define a YANG Net-Unicode string datatype that can be used in all situations where non-normalized strings may cause problems. The problem (if one agrees it is one) is likely much bigger than just YANG tags, there likely are many uses of YANG strings where normalization would be desirable. /js On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 01:10:02PM +0000, Alexey Melnikov wrote: > Hi Christian, >=20 > On Thu, Feb 13, 2020, at 12:30 AM, Christian Hopps wrote: > > The intent in the document is to place as few restrictions on tags as=20 > > possible to allow for future-proofing and organic growth of use both=20 > > within and outside of SDOs. For standard tags we trust IANA (and the=20 > > human behind the process) to make the call on whether a tag is already= =20 > > present. :) >=20 > And the problem with that is that because there might be multiple ways to= encode in Unicode visually indistinguishable tags IANA would end up asking= IESG for help. >=20 > So you need to at minimum specify a Unicode normalization form to use. I = suggest you normatively reference RFC 5198 here. >=20 > > Having worked for a company where a lot of XML string data was=20 > > non-ascii I find limiting to ascii to be rather restrictive. >=20 > Best Regards, > Alexey >=20 > >=20 > > Thanks, > > Chris. > >=20 > > > On Apr 11, 2019, at 9:41 AM, Alexey Melnikov via Datatracker wrote: > > >=20 > > > Alexey Melnikov has entered the following ballot position for > > > draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags-07: Discuss > > >=20 > > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > > > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut th= is > > > introductory paragraph, however.) > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.= html > > > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags/ > > >=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------= - > > > DISCUSS: > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------= - > > >=20 > > > This is generally a fine document, but after checking RFC 7950 syntax= for > > > strings I question why you think you need non ASCII tags. There are s= o many > > > problems that can arise from that. For example, how would IANA be abl= e to > > > enforce uniqueness of Unicode tags written in different Unicode > > > canonicalisation forms? > > >=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > >=20 > > >=20 > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod --=20 Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Thu Feb 13 11:17:33 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietf.org Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E418C1201CE; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 11:17:27 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: netmod@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.117.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: netmod@ietf.org Message-ID: <158162144779.20544.17460935081359894800@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2020 11:17:27 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [netmod] I-D Action: draft-ietf-netmod-geo-location-03.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2020 19:17:28 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Network Modeling WG of the IETF. Title : YANG Geo Location Author : Christian Hopps Filename : draft-ietf-netmod-geo-location-03.txt Pages : 23 Date : 2020-02-13 Abstract: This document defines a generic geographical location object YANG grouping. The geographical location grouping is intended to be used in YANG models for specifying a location on or in reference to the Earth or any other astronomical object. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-geo-location/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netmod-geo-location-03 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netmod-geo-location-03 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-netmod-geo-location-03 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Thu Feb 13 11:51:59 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D1B8120219; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 11:51:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Hxt0dWJtnKXe; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 11:51:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.chopps.org (smtp.chopps.org [54.88.81.56]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E36201201CE; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 11:51:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from stubbs.int.chopps.org (66-227-211-29.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com [66.227.211.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by smtp.chopps.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1DEF060B8E; Thu, 13 Feb 2020 19:51:52 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.40.2.2.4\)) From: Christian Hopps In-Reply-To: <2ee6b71c-bd2c-4676-9e14-cb240c6845c9@www.fastmail.com> Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2020 14:51:51 -0500 Cc: Christian Hopps , The IESG , draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags@ietf.org, Joel Jaeggli , netmod-chairs@ietf.org, netmod@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <155499006434.22705.5858614581630974980.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7F3B9E7F-6AD8-4801-AE60-9F2D704DC69B@chopps.org> <2ee6b71c-bd2c-4676-9e14-cb240c6845c9@www.fastmail.com> To: Alexey Melnikov X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.40.2.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Alexey Melnikov's Discuss on draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags-07: (with DISCUSS) X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2020 19:51:55 -0000 > On Feb 13, 2020, at 8:10 AM, Alexey Melnikov = wrote: >=20 > Hi Christian, >=20 > On Thu, Feb 13, 2020, at 12:30 AM, Christian Hopps wrote: >> The intent in the document is to place as few restrictions on tags as=20= >> possible to allow for future-proofing and organic growth of use both=20= >> within and outside of SDOs. For standard tags we trust IANA (and the=20= >> human behind the process) to make the call on whether a tag is = already=20 >> present. :) >=20 > And the problem with that is that because there might be multiple ways = to encode in Unicode visually indistinguishable tags IANA would end up = asking IESG for help. I don't have a problem including some text in the IANA guidance if we = need it; however, the guidance already says: "New values should be well considered and not achievable through a combination of already existing IETF tags." How could we arrive at a place where IANA is confused about allowing 2 = visually indistinguishable strings given the above statement? The = registry already requires IETF review, and it seems counter to the = existing IANA guidance to even be talking about distinguishing visually = indistinguishable tag values. IOW simply by talking about the need to = compare 2 strings that are visually indistinguishable, we diminish the = much more important intent of the initial guidance. Thanks, Chris. >=20 > So you need to at minimum specify a Unicode normalization form to use. = I suggest you normatively reference RFC 5198 here. >=20 >> Having worked for a company where a lot of XML string data was=20 >> non-ascii I find limiting to ascii to be rather restrictive. >=20 > Best Regards, > Alexey >=20 >>=20 >> Thanks, >> Chris. >>=20 >>> On Apr 11, 2019, at 9:41 AM, Alexey Melnikov via Datatracker = wrote: >>>=20 >>> Alexey Melnikov has entered the following ballot position for >>> draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags-07: Discuss >>>=20 >>> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to = all >>> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut = this >>> introductory paragraph, however.) >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Please refer to = https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html >>> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: >>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags/ >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> DISCUSS: >>> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>=20 >>> This is generally a fine document, but after checking RFC 7950 = syntax for >>> strings I question why you think you need non ASCII tags. There are = so many >>> problems that can arise from that. For example, how would IANA be = able to >>> enforce uniqueness of Unicode tags written in different Unicode >>> canonicalisation forms? >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >=20 From nobody Fri Feb 14 02:14:39 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C26DA120289 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 02:14:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.499 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.499 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com header.b=Q/8etrGZ; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.onmicrosoft.com 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Feb 2020 10:14:32 +0000 From: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" To: Kent Watsen , "netmod@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [netmod] Implicit case statementa Thread-Index: AQHV4nzDauM+gCA9XkKZZGpbkmqYsagaeIBA Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 10:14:32 +0000 Message-ID: References: <010001703f060085-7c6a3183-7f9f-4706-9be3-f64d9ea40fca-000000@email.amazonses.com> In-Reply-To: <010001703f060085-7c6a3183-7f9f-4706-9be3-f64d9ea40fca-000000@email.amazonses.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=rwilton@cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [82.15.79.32] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 232a5787-fcf7-4ac4-da16-08d7b136af47 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: MN2PR11MB4333: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:9508; x-forefront-prvs: 03137AC81E x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; 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(52.135.38.209) by MN2PR11MB4302.namprd11.prod.outlook.com (52.135.36.13) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2729.25; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 10:30:50 +0000 Received: from MN2PR11MB4366.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::b9ce:1058:5fa6:44a1]) by MN2PR11MB4366.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::b9ce:1058:5fa6:44a1%7]) with mapi id 15.20.2707.031; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 10:30:50 +0000 From: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sch=F6nw=E4lder=2C_J=FCrgen?= , Alexey Melnikov CC: "netmod-chairs@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags@ietf.org" , "netmod@ietf.org" , Joel Jaeggli , Christian Hopps , The IESG Thread-Topic: [netmod] Alexey Melnikov's Discuss on draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags-07: (with DISCUSS) Thread-Index: AQHV4m8DGI058sprvkKdYtaQYpu786gZdNYAgAEFykA= Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 10:30:50 +0000 Message-ID: References: <155499006434.22705.5858614581630974980.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> 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X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 14 Feb 2020 10:30:50.4611 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: /A/2F3GwPQsFH91z4vNvyQHyAioKnR0AuUQduSyZ/AD7QBdtr8u5mMo6fXWcqYK7qf6EY2K04lx5iihTJ9SO2Q== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MN2PR11MB4302 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.36.7.12, xch-aln-002.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-6.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Alexey Melnikov's Discuss on draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags-07: (with DISCUSS) X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 10:31:00 -0000 Hi Juergen, This sounds potentially useful to me, although should this be for general u= nicode strings (e.g. ones that might include spaces), or just identifiers (= without any spaces)?. Is this something that could/should go into rfc6991-= bis, or at least be discussed in that context? I would have thought that normalization would be required wherever a config= urable unicode string is used as a list key, or leaf-list. Thanks, Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: iesg On Behalf Of Sch=F6nw=E4lder, J=FCrgen > Sent: 13 February 2020 18:39 > To: Alexey Melnikov > Cc: netmod-chairs@ietf.org; draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags@ietf.org; > netmod@ietf.org; Joel Jaeggli ; Christian Hopps > ; The IESG > Subject: Re: [netmod] Alexey Melnikov's Discuss on draft-ietf-netmod- > module-tags-07: (with DISCUSS) >=20 > And a longer term solution might be to define a YANG Net-Unicode string > datatype that can be used in all situations where non-normalized strings > may cause problems. The problem (if one agrees it is one) is likely much > bigger than just YANG tags, there likely are many uses of YANG strings > where normalization would be desirable. >=20 > /js >=20 > On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 01:10:02PM +0000, Alexey Melnikov wrote: > > Hi Christian, > > > > On Thu, Feb 13, 2020, at 12:30 AM, Christian Hopps wrote: > > > The intent in the document is to place as few restrictions on tags > > > as possible to allow for future-proofing and organic growth of use > > > both within and outside of SDOs. For standard tags we trust IANA > > > (and the human behind the process) to make the call on whether a tag > > > is already present. :) > > > > And the problem with that is that because there might be multiple ways > to encode in Unicode visually indistinguishable tags IANA would end up > asking IESG for help. > > > > So you need to at minimum specify a Unicode normalization form to use. = I > suggest you normatively reference RFC 5198 here. > > > > > Having worked for a company where a lot of XML string data was > > > non-ascii I find limiting to ascii to be rather restrictive. > > > > Best Regards, > > Alexey > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Chris. > > > > > > > On Apr 11, 2019, at 9:41 AM, Alexey Melnikov via Datatracker > wrote: > > > > > > > > Alexey Melnikov has entered the following ballot position for > > > > draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags-07: Discuss > > > > > > > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to > > > > all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to > > > > cut this introductory paragraph, however.) > > > > > > > > > > > > Please refer to > > > > https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > > > > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > > > > > > > > > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > ---- > > > > DISCUSS: > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > ---- > > > > > > > > This is generally a fine document, but after checking RFC 7950 > > > > syntax for strings I question why you think you need non ASCII > > > > tags. There are so many problems that can arise from that. For > > > > example, how would IANA be able to enforce uniqueness of Unicode > > > > tags written in different Unicode canonicalisation forms? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > netmod mailing list > > netmod@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod >=20 > -- > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Fri Feb 14 02:43:26 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 679371207FD; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 02:43:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.5 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.5 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: c47c9abe-2ca6-41bf-0724-08d7b13aaec7 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 14 Feb 2020 10:43:09.3563 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: JN1YSlI4KkmvWmYOV/ZfY4Xzp88s8wlPr0UdyAIaw6yrDATruV9TifkF9+i1Nv+TRayrXXS4q56Afub3y1i1cQ== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MN2PR11MB4414 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.36.7.11, xch-aln-001.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-7.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Alexey Melnikov's Discuss on draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags-07: (with DISCUSS) X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 10:43:26 -0000 Hi Alexey, Christian,=20 Allowing Unicode but requiring normalization as per RFC 5198 for IANA manag= ed tags makes sense to me. But does the server also need to normalize any configured tags? I.e. shoul= d the description for the tag typedef also specify that tags SHOULD be norm= alized, and specify a normalization method that SHOULD be used? Or is the = onus on the client to use sensible (i.e. already normalized) values, and if= so, does that need to be stated? Thanks, Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: iesg On Behalf Of Alexey Melnikov > Sent: 13 February 2020 13:10 > To: Christian Hopps > Cc: netmod-chairs@ietf.org; Joel Jaeggli ; The IESG > ; netmod@ietf.org; draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags@ietf.org > Subject: Re: Alexey Melnikov's Discuss on draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags- > 07: (with DISCUSS) >=20 > Hi Christian, >=20 > On Thu, Feb 13, 2020, at 12:30 AM, Christian Hopps wrote: > > The intent in the document is to place as few restrictions on tags as > > possible to allow for future-proofing and organic growth of use both > > within and outside of SDOs. For standard tags we trust IANA (and the > > human behind the process) to make the call on whether a tag is already > > present. :) >=20 > And the problem with that is that because there might be multiple ways to > encode in Unicode visually indistinguishable tags IANA would end up askin= g > IESG for help. >=20 > So you need to at minimum specify a Unicode normalization form to use. I > suggest you normatively reference RFC 5198 here. >=20 > > Having worked for a company where a lot of XML string data was > > non-ascii I find limiting to ascii to be rather restrictive. >=20 > Best Regards, > Alexey >=20 > > > > Thanks, > > Chris. > > > > > On Apr 11, 2019, at 9:41 AM, Alexey Melnikov via Datatracker > wrote: > > > > > > Alexey Melnikov has entered the following ballot position for > > > draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags-07: Discuss > > > > > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to > > > all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to > > > cut this introductory paragraph, however.) > > > > > > > > > Please refer to > > > https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > > > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > > > > > > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags/ > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > -- > > > DISCUSS: > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > -- > > > > > > This is generally a fine document, but after checking RFC 7950 > > > syntax for strings I question why you think you need non ASCII tags. > > > There are so many problems that can arise from that. For example, > > > how would IANA be able to enforce uniqueness of Unicode tags written > > > in different Unicode canonicalisation forms? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From nobody Fri Feb 14 03:01:33 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E70851200D8; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 03:01:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kdel3rvqMfxK; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 03:01:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.chopps.org (smtp.chopps.org [54.88.81.56]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9F441207FE; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 03:01:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from stubbs.int.chopps.org (66-227-211-29.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com [66.227.211.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by smtp.chopps.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1A98D60B7B; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 11:01:25 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.40.2.2.4\)) From: Christian Hopps In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 06:01:24 -0500 Cc: Christian Hopps , Alexey Melnikov , "netmod-chairs@ietf.org" , Joel Jaeggli , The IESG , "netmod@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <714842CF-A65A-40FD-A62D-6FA7E1A6801F@chopps.org> References: <155499006434.22705.5858614581630974980.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7F3B9E7F-6AD8-4801-AE60-9F2D704DC69B@chopps.org> <2ee6b71c-bd2c-4676-9e14-cb240c6845c9@www.fastmail.com> To: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.40.2.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Alexey Melnikov's Discuss on draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags-07: (with DISCUSS) X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 11:01:28 -0000 I was not approaching this discuss with this level of change in mind. = How many years does it take to get a YANG model even one as simple as = this completed? Thanks, Chris. > On Feb 14, 2020, at 5:43 AM, Rob Wilton (rwilton) = wrote: >=20 > Hi Alexey, Christian,=20 >=20 > Allowing Unicode but requiring normalization as per RFC 5198 for IANA = managed tags makes sense to me. >=20 > But does the server also need to normalize any configured tags? I.e. = should the description for the tag typedef also specify that tags SHOULD = be normalized, and specify a normalization method that SHOULD be used? = Or is the onus on the client to use sensible (i.e. already normalized) = values, and if so, does that need to be stated? >=20 > Thanks, > Rob >=20 >=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: iesg On Behalf Of Alexey Melnikov >> Sent: 13 February 2020 13:10 >> To: Christian Hopps >> Cc: netmod-chairs@ietf.org; Joel Jaeggli ; The IESG >> ; netmod@ietf.org; = draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: Alexey Melnikov's Discuss on = draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags- >> 07: (with DISCUSS) >>=20 >> Hi Christian, >>=20 >> On Thu, Feb 13, 2020, at 12:30 AM, Christian Hopps wrote: >>> The intent in the document is to place as few restrictions on tags = as >>> possible to allow for future-proofing and organic growth of use both >>> within and outside of SDOs. For standard tags we trust IANA (and the >>> human behind the process) to make the call on whether a tag is = already >>> present. :) >>=20 >> And the problem with that is that because there might be multiple = ways to >> encode in Unicode visually indistinguishable tags IANA would end up = asking >> IESG for help. >>=20 >> So you need to at minimum specify a Unicode normalization form to = use. I >> suggest you normatively reference RFC 5198 here. >>=20 >>> Having worked for a company where a lot of XML string data was >>> non-ascii I find limiting to ascii to be rather restrictive. >>=20 >> Best Regards, >> Alexey >>=20 >>>=20 >>> Thanks, >>> Chris. >>>=20 >>>> On Apr 11, 2019, at 9:41 AM, Alexey Melnikov via Datatracker >> wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> Alexey Melnikov has entered the following ballot position for >>>> draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags-07: Discuss >>>>=20 >>>> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to >>>> all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to >>>> cut this introductory paragraph, however.) >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Please refer to >>>> https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html >>>> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: >>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags/ >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> = -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> -- >>>> DISCUSS: >>>> = -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> -- >>>>=20 >>>> This is generally a fine document, but after checking RFC 7950 >>>> syntax for strings I question why you think you need non ASCII = tags. >>>> There are so many problems that can arise from that. For example, >>>> how would IANA be able to enforce uniqueness of Unicode tags = written >>>> in different Unicode canonicalisation forms? >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >=20 From nobody Fri Feb 14 03:06:33 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F55A1207FE; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 03:06:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DfFmUvWJLxe9; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 03:06:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.chopps.org (smtp.chopps.org [54.88.81.56]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B6E91200D8; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 03:06:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from stubbs.int.chopps.org (66-227-211-29.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com [66.227.211.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by smtp.chopps.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 589D160B7B; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 11:06:22 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.40.2.2.4\)) From: Christian Hopps In-Reply-To: <714842CF-A65A-40FD-A62D-6FA7E1A6801F@chopps.org> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 06:06:21 -0500 Cc: Christian Hopps , Alexey Melnikov , "netmod-chairs@ietf.org" , Joel Jaeggli , The IESG , "netmod@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <155499006434.22705.5858614581630974980.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7F3B9E7F-6AD8-4801-AE60-9F2D704DC69B@chopps.org> <2ee6b71c-bd2c-4676-9e14-cb240c6845c9@www.fastmail.com> <714842CF-A65A-40FD-A62D-6FA7E1A6801F@chopps.org> To: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.40.2.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Alexey Melnikov's Discuss on draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags-07: (with DISCUSS) X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 11:06:25 -0000 For the record this one is 3 years and counting. For a list of tags. > On Feb 14, 2020, at 6:01 AM, Christian Hopps = wrote: >=20 > I was not approaching this discuss with this level of change in mind. = How many years does it take to get a YANG model even one as simple as = this completed? >=20 > Thanks, > Chris. >=20 >> On Feb 14, 2020, at 5:43 AM, Rob Wilton (rwilton) = wrote: >>=20 >> Hi Alexey, Christian,=20 >>=20 >> Allowing Unicode but requiring normalization as per RFC 5198 for IANA = managed tags makes sense to me. >>=20 >> But does the server also need to normalize any configured tags? I.e. = should the description for the tag typedef also specify that tags SHOULD = be normalized, and specify a normalization method that SHOULD be used? = Or is the onus on the client to use sensible (i.e. already normalized) = values, and if so, does that need to be stated? >>=20 >> Thanks, >> Rob >>=20 >>=20 >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: iesg On Behalf Of Alexey Melnikov >>> Sent: 13 February 2020 13:10 >>> To: Christian Hopps >>> Cc: netmod-chairs@ietf.org; Joel Jaeggli ; The = IESG >>> ; netmod@ietf.org; = draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags@ietf.org >>> Subject: Re: Alexey Melnikov's Discuss on = draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags- >>> 07: (with DISCUSS) >>>=20 >>> Hi Christian, >>>=20 >>> On Thu, Feb 13, 2020, at 12:30 AM, Christian Hopps wrote: >>>> The intent in the document is to place as few restrictions on tags = as >>>> possible to allow for future-proofing and organic growth of use = both >>>> within and outside of SDOs. For standard tags we trust IANA (and = the >>>> human behind the process) to make the call on whether a tag is = already >>>> present. :) >>>=20 >>> And the problem with that is that because there might be multiple = ways to >>> encode in Unicode visually indistinguishable tags IANA would end up = asking >>> IESG for help. >>>=20 >>> So you need to at minimum specify a Unicode normalization form to = use. I >>> suggest you normatively reference RFC 5198 here. >>>=20 >>>> Having worked for a company where a lot of XML string data was >>>> non-ascii I find limiting to ascii to be rather restrictive. >>>=20 >>> Best Regards, >>> Alexey >>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Thanks, >>>> Chris. >>>>=20 >>>>> On Apr 11, 2019, at 9:41 AM, Alexey Melnikov via Datatracker >>> wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>> Alexey Melnikov has entered the following ballot position for >>>>> draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags-07: Discuss >>>>>=20 >>>>> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to >>>>> all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to >>>>> cut this introductory paragraph, however.) >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> Please refer to >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html >>>>> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found = here: >>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags/ >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> = -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> -- >>>>> DISCUSS: >>>>> = -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> -- >>>>>=20 >>>>> This is generally a fine document, but after checking RFC 7950 >>>>> syntax for strings I question why you think you need non ASCII = tags. >>>>> There are so many problems that can arise from that. For example, >>>>> how would IANA be able to enforce uniqueness of Unicode tags = written >>>>> in different Unicode canonicalisation forms? >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>=20 >=20 From nobody Fri Feb 14 03:21:32 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 141D51200D8; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 03:21:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uZ1vmj9eD-sv; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 03:21:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.chopps.org (smtp.chopps.org [54.88.81.56]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98165120639; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 03:21:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from stubbs.int.chopps.org (66-227-211-29.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com [66.227.211.29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by smtp.chopps.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C8CA660B7B; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 11:21:24 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.40.2.2.4\)) From: Christian Hopps In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 06:21:24 -0500 Cc: Christian Hopps , Alexey Melnikov , "netmod-chairs@ietf.org" , Joel Jaeggli , The IESG , "netmod@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <9FECF49A-65E5-436F-973A-7538CFC974E8@chopps.org> References: <155499006434.22705.5858614581630974980.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7F3B9E7F-6AD8-4801-AE60-9F2D704DC69B@chopps.org> <2ee6b71c-bd2c-4676-9e14-cb240c6845c9@www.fastmail.com> <714842CF-A65A-40FD-A62D-6FA7E1A6801F@chopps.org> To: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.40.2.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Alexey Melnikov's Discuss on draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags-07: (with DISCUSS) X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 11:21:28 -0000 How about I add this to the description of "typedef tag" in the module: description "A tag is a type 'string' value that does not include carriage return, newline or tab characters. It SHOULD begin with a registered prefix; however, tags without a registered prefix - SHOULD NOT be treated as invalid."; + SHOULD NOT be treated as invalid. For the purposes of = comparison + non-ascii strings should use 'NFC' (RFC5198) normalization"; } Thanks, Chris. > On Feb 14, 2020, at 6:06 AM, Christian Hopps = wrote: >=20 > For the record this one is 3 years and counting. For a list of tags. >=20 >> On Feb 14, 2020, at 6:01 AM, Christian Hopps = wrote: >>=20 >> I was not approaching this discuss with this level of change in mind. = How many years does it take to get a YANG model even one as simple as = this completed? >>=20 >> Thanks, >> Chris. >>=20 >>> On Feb 14, 2020, at 5:43 AM, Rob Wilton (rwilton) = wrote: >>>=20 >>> Hi Alexey, Christian,=20 >>>=20 >>> Allowing Unicode but requiring normalization as per RFC 5198 for = IANA managed tags makes sense to me. >>>=20 >>> But does the server also need to normalize any configured tags? = I.e. should the description for the tag typedef also specify that tags = SHOULD be normalized, and specify a normalization method that SHOULD be = used? Or is the onus on the client to use sensible (i.e. already = normalized) values, and if so, does that need to be stated? >>>=20 >>> Thanks, >>> Rob >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: iesg On Behalf Of Alexey Melnikov >>>> Sent: 13 February 2020 13:10 >>>> To: Christian Hopps >>>> Cc: netmod-chairs@ietf.org; Joel Jaeggli ; The = IESG >>>> ; netmod@ietf.org; = draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags@ietf.org >>>> Subject: Re: Alexey Melnikov's Discuss on = draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags- >>>> 07: (with DISCUSS) >>>>=20 >>>> Hi Christian, >>>>=20 >>>> On Thu, Feb 13, 2020, at 12:30 AM, Christian Hopps wrote: >>>>> The intent in the document is to place as few restrictions on tags = as >>>>> possible to allow for future-proofing and organic growth of use = both >>>>> within and outside of SDOs. For standard tags we trust IANA (and = the >>>>> human behind the process) to make the call on whether a tag is = already >>>>> present. :) >>>>=20 >>>> And the problem with that is that because there might be multiple = ways to >>>> encode in Unicode visually indistinguishable tags IANA would end up = asking >>>> IESG for help. >>>>=20 >>>> So you need to at minimum specify a Unicode normalization form to = use. I >>>> suggest you normatively reference RFC 5198 here. >>>>=20 >>>>> Having worked for a company where a lot of XML string data was >>>>> non-ascii I find limiting to ascii to be rather restrictive. >>>>=20 >>>> Best Regards, >>>> Alexey >>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> Chris. >>>>>=20 >>>>>> On Apr 11, 2019, at 9:41 AM, Alexey Melnikov via Datatracker >>>> wrote: >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Alexey Melnikov has entered the following ballot position for >>>>>> draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags-07: Discuss >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to >>>>>> all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free = to >>>>>> cut this introductory paragraph, however.) >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Please refer to >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html >>>>>> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found = here: >>>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags/ >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> = -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> -- >>>>>> DISCUSS: >>>>>> = -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> -- >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> This is generally a fine document, but after checking RFC 7950 >>>>>> syntax for strings I question why you think you need non ASCII = tags. >>>>>> There are so many problems that can arise from that. For example, >>>>>> how would IANA be able to enforce uniqueness of Unicode tags = written >>>>>> in different Unicode canonicalisation forms? >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >=20 From nobody Fri Feb 14 03:48:35 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F231B120828 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 03:48:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=btconnect.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XFs0xi9XAPTi for ; 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charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: btconnect.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 849a6299-a603-4762-d303-08d7b143ce7a X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 14 Feb 2020 11:48:28.0745 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: cf8853ed-96e5-465b-9185-806bfe185e30 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: C8ix9NNDNJyAXZFq7yseHGiLrt5qXIm4EWz94S03rEXS5fqqAdlnKP/E+1ZaBOefPi9fTrXo3KlkTdMOIc/zMw== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB7PR07MB5878 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Implicit case statementa X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 11:48:34 -0000 _____________________________________=0A= From: netmod on behalf of Rob Wilton (rwilton) =0A= Sent: 14 February 2020 10:14=0A= To: Kent Watsen; netmod@ietf.org=0A= My interpretation matches the one that Martin gives in https://github.com/m= bj4668/pyang/issues/559=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= I was looking at =0A= draft-boydseda- ipfix-psamp-bulk-data-yang-model=0A= and see nine choice statements of which six have no case, two have a single= case and one has multiple case. The single case have a note to the effect= that they may be augmented, the others have no note. The no case do have = multiple container or leaf statements. It does make me curious.=0A= =0A= Tom Petch=0A= =0A= =0A= I.e. the short hand notation =85=0A= =0A= choice test {=0A= container foo {=0A= if-feature disabled-feature;=0A= ...=0A= }=0A= }=0A= =0A= is equivalent to:=0A= =0A= choice test {=0A= case foo {=0A= container foo {=0A= if-feature disabled-feature;=0A= ...=0A= }=0A= }=0A= }=0A= =0A= Filing an issue in YANG.Next to clarify, or further discuss, this seems hel= pful to me.=0A= =0A= Thanks,=0A= Rob=0A= =0A= =0A= From: netmod On Behalf Of Kent Watsen=0A= Sent: 13 February 2020 14:49=0A= To: netmod@ietf.org=0A= Subject: [netmod] Implicit case statementa=0A= =0A= =0A= RFC 7950 says:=0A= =0A= As a shorthand, the "case" statement can be omitted if the branch=0A= =0A= contains a single "anydata", "anyxml", "choice", "container", "leaf",=0A= =0A= "list", or "leaf-list" statement. In this case, the case node still=0A= =0A= exists in the schema tree, and its identifier is the same as the=0A= =0A= identifier of the child node.=0A= =0A= This seems clear, albeit incomplete, as inconsistencies [1] exist amongst `= pyang`and `yanglint` (I did not test with `yangson`) in how the =93if-featu= re=94 statement is handled, though I imagine other statements (e.g., =93whe= n=94) may also fall into this discussion as well.=0A= =0A= Ultimately, the question is what Errata and/or YANG-next issue should be fi= led. I=92m okay either way, so long as it=92s clear and can be implemente= d consistently across tooling.=0A= =0A= In the meanwhile, I recommend module designers avoid using the shorthand no= tation, as there are no known issues with the =93longhand=94 notation.=0A= =0A= [1] https://github.com/mbj4668/pyang/issues/559=0A= =0A= Kent // contributor=0A= =0A= From nobody Fri Feb 14 04:35:16 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F8191200DE; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 04:35:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.5 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.5 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: ad4e3ff5-a74f-42b8-ed75-08d7b14a5076 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 14 Feb 2020 12:35:03.0362 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 1zcXI6vU380pQCufYUOKT4f5hL3VuiVzluAjcyPZmgJJUQ73KeMchc9PIlk1NGjjdQUHzqIKwD/8N9lzb03rQg== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MN2PR11MB3598 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.36.7.13, xch-aln-003.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-12.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Alexey Melnikov's Discuss on draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags-07: (with DISCUSS) X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 12:35:10 -0000 Hi Chris, I think that would be okay, although perhaps using SHOULD rather than "shou= ld" might be better, given that SHOULD NOT is used elsewhere in the descrip= tion. Thanks, Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: Christian Hopps > Sent: 14 February 2020 11:21 > To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) > Cc: Christian Hopps ; Alexey Melnikov > ; netmod-chairs@ietf.org; Joel Jaeggli > ; The IESG ; netmod@ietf.org; draft-ietf= - > netmod-module-tags@ietf.org > Subject: Re: Alexey Melnikov's Discuss on draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags- > 07: (with DISCUSS) >=20 > How about I add this to the description of "typedef tag" in the module: >=20 > description > "A tag is a type 'string' value that does not include carriage > return, newline or tab characters. It SHOULD begin with a > registered prefix; however, tags without a registered prefix > - SHOULD NOT be treated as invalid."; > + SHOULD NOT be treated as invalid. For the purposes of compariso= n > + non-ascii strings should use 'NFC' (RFC5198) normalization"; > } >=20 > Thanks, > Chris. >=20 > > On Feb 14, 2020, at 6:06 AM, Christian Hopps wrote: > > > > For the record this one is 3 years and counting. For a list of tags. > > > >> On Feb 14, 2020, at 6:01 AM, Christian Hopps wrote= : > >> > >> I was not approaching this discuss with this level of change in mind. > How many years does it take to get a YANG model even one as simple as thi= s > completed? > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Chris. > >> > >>> On Feb 14, 2020, at 5:43 AM, Rob Wilton (rwilton) > wrote: > >>> > >>> Hi Alexey, Christian, > >>> > >>> Allowing Unicode but requiring normalization as per RFC 5198 for IANA > managed tags makes sense to me. > >>> > >>> But does the server also need to normalize any configured tags? I.e. > should the description for the tag typedef also specify that tags SHOULD > be normalized, and specify a normalization method that SHOULD be used? O= r > is the onus on the client to use sensible (i.e. already normalized) > values, and if so, does that need to be stated? > >>> > >>> Thanks, > >>> Rob > >>> > >>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: iesg On Behalf Of Alexey Melnikov > >>>> Sent: 13 February 2020 13:10 > >>>> To: Christian Hopps > >>>> Cc: netmod-chairs@ietf.org; Joel Jaeggli ; The > >>>> IESG ; netmod@ietf.org; > >>>> draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags@ietf.org > >>>> Subject: Re: Alexey Melnikov's Discuss on > >>>> draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags- > >>>> 07: (with DISCUSS) > >>>> > >>>> Hi Christian, > >>>> > >>>> On Thu, Feb 13, 2020, at 12:30 AM, Christian Hopps wrote: > >>>>> The intent in the document is to place as few restrictions on tags > >>>>> as possible to allow for future-proofing and organic growth of use > >>>>> both within and outside of SDOs. For standard tags we trust IANA > >>>>> (and the human behind the process) to make the call on whether a > >>>>> tag is already present. :) > >>>> > >>>> And the problem with that is that because there might be multiple > >>>> ways to encode in Unicode visually indistinguishable tags IANA > >>>> would end up asking IESG for help. > >>>> > >>>> So you need to at minimum specify a Unicode normalization form to > >>>> use. I suggest you normatively reference RFC 5198 here. > >>>> > >>>>> Having worked for a company where a lot of XML string data was > >>>>> non-ascii I find limiting to ascii to be rather restrictive. > >>>> > >>>> Best Regards, > >>>> Alexey > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Thanks, > >>>>> Chris. > >>>>> > >>>>>> On Apr 11, 2019, at 9:41 AM, Alexey Melnikov via Datatracker > >>>> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Alexey Melnikov has entered the following ballot position for > >>>>>> draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags-07: Discuss > >>>>>> > >>>>>> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to > >>>>>> all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free > >>>>>> to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Please refer to > >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > >>>>>> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here= : > >>>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags/ > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>>>> --- > >>>>>> -- > >>>>>> DISCUSS: > >>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>>>> --- > >>>>>> -- > >>>>>> > >>>>>> This is generally a fine document, but after checking RFC 7950 > >>>>>> syntax for strings I question why you think you need non ASCII > tags. > >>>>>> There are so many problems that can arise from that. For example, > >>>>>> how would IANA be able to enforce uniqueness of Unicode tags > >>>>>> written in different Unicode canonicalisation forms? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>> > >> > > From nobody Fri Feb 14 06:30:40 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3F20120041; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 06:30:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.437 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.437 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_SBL_CSS=3.335, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=jacobsuniversity.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Tb--Gb52ttWk; 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Fri, 14 Feb 2020 14:30:31 +0000 Received: from DB6P190MB0312.EURP190.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::2cda:e754:4835:c579]) by DB6P190MB0312.EURP190.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::2cda:e754:4835:c579%3]) with mapi id 15.20.2729.025; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 14:30:31 +0000 Received: from localhost (212.201.44.247) by AM0PR05CA0075.eurprd05.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:208:136::15) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2729.22 via Frontend Transport; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 14:30:31 +0000 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sch=F6nw=E4lder=2C_J=FCrgen?= To: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" CC: Alexey Melnikov , "netmod@ietf.org" , Joel Jaeggli , Christian Hopps , The IESG Thread-Topic: [netmod] Alexey Melnikov's Discuss on draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags-07: (with DISCUSS) Thread-Index: AQHV4pzaaJjh2ww68Uallfbdbai0wKgafm0AgABC9gA= Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 14:30:31 +0000 Message-ID: <20200214143030.qfzhqdlk2gpd4tc3@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> References: <155499006434.22705.5858614581630974980.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7F3B9E7F-6AD8-4801-AE60-9F2D704DC69B@chopps.org> <2ee6b71c-bd2c-4676-9e14-cb240c6845c9@www.fastmail.com> <20200213183857.zhn2eiiztqipwsq3@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> In-Reply-To: Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sch=F6nw=E4lder=2C_J=FCrgen?= Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-clientproxiedby: AM0PR05CA0075.eurprd05.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:208:136::15) To DB6P190MB0312.EURP190.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:6:34::31) authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de; 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x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata: jvWWVoamZV/EYIBPLYu3bOfLltSTXzUS5MKx5K/C8bQroOQbphOPDgKIjDeASkQX9WhVWHuelvM9ELlv2DLHQqL3sc7Hozsci+KrdIRJXpYmTdLzSQF4k1MGnUpR+lnYrf37HKSXpp7tkYqdV/ZrwQ== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: <8E3F82402B0E38418EF1BF316EB18847@EURP190.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: jacobs-university.de X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: e1e191ff-72fd-4233-4dba-08d7b15a7218 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 14 Feb 2020 14:30:31.8041 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: f78e973e-5c0b-4ab8-bbd7-9887c95a8ebd X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: wb1bVUDXfsg8smY9p/8uvjPgr8hHSmvXaCP/jbqsG1zQqoLLIt7SyIGcG5NKG3lr9f43G6GfoFTNDVQkvL+FnvpCndhXDJklvKjA8AM6qeI= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB6P190MB0296 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Alexey Melnikov's Discuss on draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags-07: (with DISCUSS) X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 14:30:38 -0000 Rob, I think there are two related issues here: a) If we need normalized strings (to avoid comparison suprises), we should have a common type for them; rfc6991-bis would be a proper home. I am _not_ saying we should delay the tags document for this, but we should think about providing a solution that can be easily reused. Right now, we often use strings as part of keys, which can lead to comparison issues. b) It seems that normalized strings only solve part of the problem. If an organization creates names for 'things', the organization likely wants to further restrict the format of these names to something sensible to avoid fun with different kinds of hyphens or emojis or ... So while creative unicode characters may technically work, there will likely be good reasons to avoid some of them. (There are reasons why we have coding styles for most programming languages.) These rules may, however, differ between organizations. We should not confuse a) and b). If IANA needs additional guidelines for tags (their coding style for tags), then we should provide these guidelines, i.e., this is a type b) action. The type a) action is needed to technically ensure that comparisons do not lead to surprises. But a) won't be an answer for all type b) issues. Of course, we could give IANA a 'coding style' that avoids any normalization issues. This would make IANA assigned tags safe but would not avoid comparison surprises for other sources of tags. /js On Fri, Feb 14, 2020 at 10:30:50AM +0000, Rob Wilton (rwilton) wrote: > Hi Juergen, >=20 > This sounds potentially useful to me, although should this be for general= unicode strings (e.g. ones that might include spaces), or just identifiers= (without any spaces)?. Is this something that could/should go into rfc699= 1-bis, or at least be discussed in that context? >=20 > I would have thought that normalization would be required wherever a conf= igurable unicode string is used as a list key, or leaf-list. >=20 > Thanks, > Rob >=20 >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: iesg On Behalf Of Sch=F6nw=E4lder, J=FCrg= en > > Sent: 13 February 2020 18:39 > > To: Alexey Melnikov > > Cc: netmod-chairs@ietf.org; draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags@ietf.org; > > netmod@ietf.org; Joel Jaeggli ; Christian Hopps > > ; The IESG > > Subject: Re: [netmod] Alexey Melnikov's Discuss on draft-ietf-netmod- > > module-tags-07: (with DISCUSS) > >=20 > > And a longer term solution might be to define a YANG Net-Unicode string > > datatype that can be used in all situations where non-normalized string= s > > may cause problems. The problem (if one agrees it is one) is likely muc= h > > bigger than just YANG tags, there likely are many uses of YANG strings > > where normalization would be desirable. > >=20 > > /js > >=20 > > On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 01:10:02PM +0000, Alexey Melnikov wrote: > > > Hi Christian, > > > > > > On Thu, Feb 13, 2020, at 12:30 AM, Christian Hopps wrote: > > > > The intent in the document is to place as few restrictions on tags > > > > as possible to allow for future-proofing and organic growth of use > > > > both within and outside of SDOs. For standard tags we trust IANA > > > > (and the human behind the process) to make the call on whether a ta= g > > > > is already present. :) > > > > > > And the problem with that is that because there might be multiple way= s > > to encode in Unicode visually indistinguishable tags IANA would end up > > asking IESG for help. > > > > > > So you need to at minimum specify a Unicode normalization form to use= . I > > suggest you normatively reference RFC 5198 here. > > > > > > > Having worked for a company where a lot of XML string data was > > > > non-ascii I find limiting to ascii to be rather restrictive. > > > > > > Best Regards, > > > Alexey > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Chris. > > > > > > > > > On Apr 11, 2019, at 9:41 AM, Alexey Melnikov via Datatracker > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Alexey Melnikov has entered the following ballot position for > > > > > draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags-07: Discuss > > > > > > > > > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to > > > > > all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free t= o > > > > > cut this introductory paragraph, however.) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please refer to > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > > > > > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found her= e: > > > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----------------------------------------------------------------= - > > > > > ---- > > > > > DISCUSS: > > > > > -----------------------------------------------------------------= - > > > > > ---- > > > > > > > > > > This is generally a fine document, but after checking RFC 7950 > > > > > syntax for strings I question why you think you need non ASCII > > > > > tags. There are so many problems that can arise from that. For > > > > > example, how would IANA be able to enforce uniqueness of Unicode > > > > > tags written in different Unicode canonicalisation forms? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > netmod mailing list > > > netmod@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > >=20 > > -- > > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 >=20 --=20 Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Fri Feb 14 08:01:07 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietf.org Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86193120877; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 08:00:58 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: netmod@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.117.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: netmod@ietf.org Message-ID: <158169605847.16123.13242157500712320238@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 08:00:58 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [netmod] I-D Action: draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format-07.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 16:01:03 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Network Modeling WG of the IETF. Title : YANG Instance Data File Format Authors : Balazs Lengyel Benoit Claise Filename : draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format-07.txt Pages : 26 Date : 2020-02-13 Abstract: There is a need to document data defined in YANG models when a live server is not available. Data is often needed already at design or implementation time or needed by groups that do not have a live running server available. This document specifies a standard file format for YANG instance data, which follows the syntax and semantics of existing YANG models, and annotates it with metadata. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format-07 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format-07 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format-07 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. 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charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Chairs, I replied to Juergen, and exchanged some additional mails with him. I = updated the draft to draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format-07. = Please take it forward in the process. https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3Ded368c2e-b1bcaefa-ed36ccb5-0cc47a= d93e6a-1bf0817821133165&q=3D1&e=3Db8630aed-b037-42b0-a579-0e6e8067e0eb&u=3D= https%3A%2F%2Ftools.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-fil= e-format-07 Regards Balazs -----Original Message----- From: netmod On Behalf Of Kent Watsen Sent: 2020. febru=C3=A1r 9., vas=C3=A1rnap 20:23 To: netmod@ietf.org Subject: Re: [netmod] WG Last Call: = draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format-06 This message closes the WGLC. Authors, please respond to Juergen=E2=80=99s message from Jan 20, = ultimately posting an update to the draft. Thanks, Kent // as shepherd > On Jan 7, 2020, at 7:41 AM, Kent Watsen wrote: >=20 >=20 > This begins a two-week Working Group Last Call (WGLC) on = draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format-06. The WGLC ends on Jan = 21. Please send your comments to the working group mailing list. >=20 > Positive comments, e.g., "I've reviewed this document and believe it = is ready for publication", are welcome! This is useful and important, = even from authors. Objections, concerns, and suggestions are also = welcomed at this time. >=20 > Thank you, > NETMOD Chairs >=20 > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod _______________________________________________ netmod mailing list netmod@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod ------=_NextPart_000_0839_01D5E358.BDCF3C00 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIVbjCCAyAw ggIIoAMCAQICAR0wDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQAwOTELMAkGA1UEBhMCRkkxDzANBgNVBAoTBlNvbmVy YTEZMBcGA1UEAxMQU29uZXJhIENsYXNzMiBDQTAeFw0wMTA0MDYwNzI5NDBaFw0yMTA0MDYwNzI5 NDBaMDkxCzAJBgNVBAYTAkZJMQ8wDQYDVQQKEwZTb25lcmExGTAXBgNVBAMTEFNvbmVyYSBDbGFz czIgQ0EwggEiMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4IBDwAwggEKAoIBAQCQF0o1ncrwDZbHRPoWN/xIvb1/ 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SMTP id w9mr3741154ybq.44.1581701179391; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 09:26:19 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <155499006434.22705.5858614581630974980.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7F3B9E7F-6AD8-4801-AE60-9F2D704DC69B@chopps.org> <2ee6b71c-bd2c-4676-9e14-cb240c6845c9@www.fastmail.com> <714842CF-A65A-40FD-A62D-6FA7E1A6801F@chopps.org> In-Reply-To: <714842CF-A65A-40FD-A62D-6FA7E1A6801F@chopps.org> From: Andy Bierman Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 09:26:08 -0800 Message-ID: To: Christian Hopps Cc: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" , "netmod-chairs@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags@ietf.org" , "netmod@ietf.org" , Alexey Melnikov , Joel Jaeggli , The IESG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f05bda059e8c8020" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Alexey Melnikov's Discuss on draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags-07: (with DISCUSS) X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 17:26:24 -0000 --000000000000f05bda059e8c8020 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Fri, Feb 14, 2020 at 3:01 AM Christian Hopps wrote: > I was not approaching this discuss with this level of change in mind. How > many years does it take to get a YANG model even one as simple as this > completed? > > I strongly agree. Just because there are refinements to the YANG "string" data type that are possible does not mean the Module Tags RFC has to solve that problem, or wait until it is solved. Every YANG module using the "string" data type (all of them?) could have the same problem. > Thanks, > Chris. > Andy > > > On Feb 14, 2020, at 5:43 AM, Rob Wilton (rwilton) > wrote: > > > > Hi Alexey, Christian, > > > > Allowing Unicode but requiring normalization as per RFC 5198 for IANA > managed tags makes sense to me. > > > > But does the server also need to normalize any configured tags? I.e. > should the description for the tag typedef also specify that tags SHOULD be > normalized, and specify a normalization method that SHOULD be used? Or is > the onus on the client to use sensible (i.e. already normalized) values, > and if so, does that need to be stated? > > > > Thanks, > > Rob > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: iesg On Behalf Of Alexey Melnikov > >> Sent: 13 February 2020 13:10 > >> To: Christian Hopps > >> Cc: netmod-chairs@ietf.org; Joel Jaeggli ; The IESG > >> ; netmod@ietf.org; > draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags@ietf.org > >> Subject: Re: Alexey Melnikov's Discuss on draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags- > >> 07: (with DISCUSS) > >> > >> Hi Christian, > >> > >> On Thu, Feb 13, 2020, at 12:30 AM, Christian Hopps wrote: > >>> The intent in the document is to place as few restrictions on tags as > >>> possible to allow for future-proofing and organic growth of use both > >>> within and outside of SDOs. For standard tags we trust IANA (and the > >>> human behind the process) to make the call on whether a tag is already > >>> present. :) > >> > >> And the problem with that is that because there might be multiple ways > to > >> encode in Unicode visually indistinguishable tags IANA would end up > asking > >> IESG for help. > >> > >> So you need to at minimum specify a Unicode normalization form to use. I > >> suggest you normatively reference RFC 5198 here. > >> > >>> Having worked for a company where a lot of XML string data was > >>> non-ascii I find limiting to ascii to be rather restrictive. > >> > >> Best Regards, > >> Alexey > >> > >>> > >>> Thanks, > >>> Chris. > >>> > >>>> On Apr 11, 2019, at 9:41 AM, Alexey Melnikov via Datatracker > >> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Alexey Melnikov has entered the following ballot position for > >>>> draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags-07: Discuss > >>>> > >>>> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to > >>>> all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to > >>>> cut this introductory paragraph, however.) > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Please refer to > >>>> https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > >>>> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > >>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags/ > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> -- > >>>> DISCUSS: > >>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> -- > >>>> > >>>> This is generally a fine document, but after checking RFC 7950 > >>>> syntax for strings I question why you think you need non ASCII tags. > >>>> There are so many problems that can arise from that. For example, > >>>> how would IANA be able to enforce uniqueness of Unicode tags written > >>>> in different Unicode canonicalisation forms? > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > > > > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > --000000000000f05bda059e8c8020 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Fri, Feb 14, 2020 at 3:01 AM Chris= tian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org&g= t; wrote:
I was = not approaching this discuss with this level of change in mind. How many ye= ars does it take to get a YANG model even one as simple as this completed?<= br>


I strongly agree.
=
Just because there are refinements to the YANG "string" data= type that are possible
does not mean the Module Tags RFC has to = solve that problem, or wait until it is solved.
Every YANG module= using the "string" data type (all of them?) could have the same = problem.

=C2=A0
Thanks,
Chris.

Andy
=C2=A0

> On Feb 14, 2020, at 5:43 AM, Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Alexey, Christian,
>
> Allowing Unicode but requiring normalization as per RFC 5198 for IANA = managed tags makes sense to me.
>
> But does the server also need to normalize any configured tags?=C2=A0 = I.e. should the description for the tag typedef also specify that tags SHOU= LD be normalized, and specify a normalization method that SHOULD be used?= =C2=A0 Or is the onus on the client to use sensible (i.e. already normalize= d) values, and if so, does that need to be stated?
>
> Thanks,
> Rob
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: iesg <iesg-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Alexey Melnikov
>> Sent: 13 February 2020 13:10
>> To: Christian Hopps <chopps@chopps.org>
>> Cc: ne= tmod-chairs@ietf.org; Joel Jaeggli <joelja@gmail.com>; The IESG
>> <iesg@ietf.o= rg>; netmod@iet= f.org; draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: Alexey Melnikov's Discuss on draft-ietf-netmod-mo= dule-tags-
>> 07: (with DISCUSS)
>>
>> Hi Christian,
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 13, 2020, at 12:30 AM, Christian Hopps wrote:
>>> The intent in the document is to place as few restrictions on = tags as
>>> possible to allow for future-proofing and organic growth of us= e both
>>> within and outside of SDOs. For standard tags we trust IANA (a= nd the
>>> human behind the process) to make the call on whether a tag is= already
>>> present. :)
>>
>> And the problem with that is that because there might be multiple = ways to
>> encode in Unicode visually indistinguishable tags IANA would end u= p asking
>> IESG for help.
>>
>> So you need to at minimum specify a Unicode normalization form to = use. I
>> suggest you normatively reference RFC 5198 here.
>>
>>> Having worked for a company where a lot of XML string data was=
>>> non-ascii I find limiting to ascii to be rather restrictive. >>
>> Best Regards,
>> Alexey
>>
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Chris.
>>>
>>>> On Apr 11, 2019, at 9:41 AM, Alexey Melnikov via Datatrack= er
>> <noreply@= ietf.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Alexey Melnikov has entered the following ballot position = for
>>>> draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags-07: Discuss
>>>>
>>>> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and r= eply to
>>>> all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel= free to
>>>> cut this introductory paragraph, however.)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Please refer to
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/iesg/= statement/discuss-criteria.html
>>>> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positi= ons.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be fo= und here:
>>>> https://datatracker.= ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------= ----------
>>>> --
>>>> DISCUSS:
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------= ----------
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> This is generally a fine document, but after checking RFC = 7950
>>>> syntax for strings I question why you think you need non A= SCII tags.
>>>> There are so many problems that can arise from that. For e= xample,
>>>> how would IANA be able to enforce uniqueness of Unicode ta= gs written
>>>> in different Unicode canonicalisation forms?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>

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--000000000000f05bda059e8c8020-- From nobody Fri Feb 14 10:04:52 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9D7E120A22 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 10:04:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.919 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.919 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NKm2qXumqKVB for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 10:04:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pj1-f50.google.com (mail-pj1-f50.google.com [209.85.216.50]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 44EC3120A1D for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 10:04:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pj1-f50.google.com with SMTP id dw13so4175159pjb.4 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 10:04:48 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding :content-language; bh=J42tRkxPEmTolQxlLJ7qJWcvyeWOztq1AAWZ2pBHTq8=; b=UZR8qOnb11W5pFBMjrEktf3s/Dzuczjp+3VZBFcG0NFdvqULbNaCPuSWsy7/B+Qf6a zLAd26+B+dOlS2JKQWfjD3xWRkZ4dflWEM77hFUau5aCGrZ61gWjewD+/lKnn55SMzj4 8mYyNV/eRDyxFbexULVBF+Glwd72Oe7LtpMwFWkgjCLDb3a3rqr+LbLVDr3eLGI4yG5L VjFjcSerVRlNGOB2+Td+7zCnejUrWXK68LI5oJyKgMFo4YoIpgSO5jFLe0I4hAutLS16 Dm/JiH36SFhFDoGR3WouqQ8Lzd+FVTg5g2TLBCMqXQRWO6XL119vOIr+2BDB0uinF/2T buOg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUr7F3d/EB5RmFJjtisf/BM6VOCoO1lcHWHfZYYu8MS1HBuNRe3 PHQbA0QBFnadG8NgjVNgLFMVRpfI4aNyzw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzGv3GQOQehjCUEpy8yvHmDSh3ukvczqJrKWc/07DVahYlFRA9kRiFcWYRwtufBnAKPFWqGuQ== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:b788:: with SMTP id e8mr4660856pls.1.1581703487531; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 10:04:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.106] (c-73-231-235-186.hsd1.ca.comcast.net. [73.231.235.186]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d4sm7088129pjz.12.2020.02.14.10.04.47 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 14 Feb 2020 10:04:47 -0800 (PST) To: netmod@ietf.org References: <155499006434.22705.5858614581630974980.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7F3B9E7F-6AD8-4801-AE60-9F2D704DC69B@chopps.org> <2ee6b71c-bd2c-4676-9e14-cb240c6845c9@www.fastmail.com> <714842CF-A65A-40FD-A62D-6FA7E1A6801F@chopps.org> <9FECF49A-65E5-436F-973A-7538CFC974E8@chopps.org> From: Randy Presuhn Message-ID: <14832a78-ff8c-b923-09ba-207c2cf01362@alumni.stanford.edu> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 10:05:09 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <9FECF49A-65E5-436F-973A-7538CFC974E8@chopps.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-Antivirus: Avast (VPS 200213-2, 02/13/2020), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Alexey Melnikov's Discuss on draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags-07: (with DISCUSS) X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 18:04:51 -0000 Hi - On 2/14/2020 3:21 AM, Christian Hopps wrote: > How about I add this to the description of "typedef tag" in the module: > > description > "A tag is a type 'string' value that does not include carriage > return, newline or tab characters. It SHOULD begin with a > registered prefix; however, tags without a registered prefix > - SHOULD NOT be treated as invalid."; > + SHOULD NOT be treated as invalid. For the purposes of comparison > + non-ascii strings should use 'NFC' (RFC5198) normalization"; > } > There are other considerations beyond normalization form. For the tip of the iceberg, see the definition of SnmpAdminString in RFC 3411, or the "SHOULD be avoided" stuff in RFC 5198. For things like tags where one would like to minimize accidental visual punning, I'd suggest NFKC should probably be given some consideration.   Excellent presentation of the issues is available at https://unicode.org/reports/tr15/ That said, these are issues that were raised in the earliest days of Netmod / Netconf, and no one should be surprised that they haven't gone away by themselves.  So I find my self in ironic agreement with Andy that it doesn't make sense to wait for / impose a global solution, because there's plenty of evidence that having all sorts of ill-defined cases of questionable interoperability in theory hasn't been sufficient to prevent adoption of the technology. Randy From nobody Fri Feb 14 11:15:34 2020 Return-Path: <0100017045205157-ba7a6e8f-0d4d-4540-b6ca-94d4d81dbe02-000000@amazonses.watsen.net> X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD990120B3F for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 11:15:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=amazonses.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iRaf8IHPNHPo for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 11:15:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from a48-93.smtp-out.amazonses.com (a48-93.smtp-out.amazonses.com [54.240.48.93]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 73FFD120B28 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 2020 11:15:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/simple; s=6gbrjpgwjskckoa6a5zn6fwqkn67xbtw; d=amazonses.com; t=1581707711; h=From:Message-Id:Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References:Feedback-ID; bh=dpB3lGOn8kSOfDXP1k0KBXDDwAj8rAHGzDpTnV6srWY=; b=nPprwIjCdpUiieOaLY4hILZ1lowgjt8oXsxgvdb5fyo9nZmQ5JIU08pnDbE5v8zO Bus5ivGIrt5C5etUy3oetyXg4GuGaE924yjf2relU0GPRlsFap/HaTUnjZfcOVyxZFs bYqbKuAs+RG205zHnjLi0MV2Adx5YjKFgtwjQKbs= From: Kent Watsen Message-ID: <0100017045205157-ba7a6e8f-0d4d-4540-b6ca-94d4d81dbe02-000000@email.amazonses.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_B38C0F2E-2B6C-4C9B-9E34-3C530E2D7C96" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 19:15:10 +0000 In-Reply-To: Cc: "netmod@ietf.org" , Benoit Claise , Juergen Schoenwaelder To: =?utf-8?Q?Bal=C3=A1zs_Lengyel?= References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-SES-Outgoing: 2020.02.14-54.240.48.93 Feedback-ID: 1.us-east-1.DKmIRZFhhsBhtmFMNikgwZUWVrODEw9qVcPhqJEI2DA=:AmazonSES Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] WG Last Call: draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format-06 to -07 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 19:15:33 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_B38C0F2E-2B6C-4C9B-9E34-3C530E2D7C96 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Juergen, Does the update address all your concerns? Do you feel there is a need for another LC Hi Balazs, Did you mean to send this to the netmod-chairs alias? Oh well, as long we=E2=80=99re here, following are some questions/comments: Have the YANG modules been validated and tested for formatting? (i.e., pyang -f yang --keep-comments --yang-line-length 69 filename)=20 Have the examples in the draft validated against the YANG module? Please review the Normative/Informative status of the references. Not looking carefully, but RFCs 2119 and 8174 should be Normative,=20 and I think RFCs 3688 and 6020 should be Informative, right? All of the =E2=80=9Cimport=E2=80=9D statements in the YANG module are = missing a =E2=80=9Creference=E2=80=9D statement. Please add a paragraph to Section 5.2 preceding the YANG module indicating all the aforementioned Normative references. The copyright in the YANG module needs to be 2020 (not 2019) Please ensure a blank line between paragraphs in the =E2=80=9Cdescription"= statements. Please add a statement to the Introduction regarding why the module Isn=E2=80=99t compliant with NMDA. The tree diagram does not adhere to the syntax described in=20 draft-ietf-netmod-yang-data-ext. Please update the first sentence=20 in Section 5.1 to also reference draft-ietf-netmod-yang-data-ext. Please ensure that the planning-text version of the draft passes IDNITS (https://www6.ietf.org/tools/idnits) at the =E2=80=9Cverbose = output=E2=80=9D level and correct any issues found, or explain why they shouldn=E2=80=99t be corrected. Thanks, Kent // shepherd > On Feb 14, 2020, at 11:03 AM, Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel = wrote: >=20 > Hello Chairs, > I replied to Juergen, and exchanged some additional mails with him. I = updated the draft to draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format-07. = Please take it forward in the process. >=20 > = https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3Ded368c2e-b1bcaefa-ed36ccb5-0cc47ad= 93e6a-1bf0817821133165&q=3D1&e=3Db8630aed-b037-42b0-a579-0e6e8067e0eb&u=3D= https%3A%2F%2Ftools.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file= -format-07 > Regards Balazs >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: netmod On Behalf Of Kent Watsen > Sent: 2020. febru=C3=A1r 9., vas=C3=A1rnap 20:23 > To: netmod@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [netmod] WG Last Call: = draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format-06 >=20 > This message closes the WGLC. >=20 > Authors, please respond to Juergen=E2=80=99s message from Jan 20, = ultimately posting an update to the draft. >=20 > Thanks, > Kent // as shepherd >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On Jan 7, 2020, at 7:41 AM, Kent Watsen wrote: >>=20 >>=20 >> This begins a two-week Working Group Last Call (WGLC) on = draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format-06. The WGLC ends on Jan = 21. Please send your comments to the working group mailing list. >>=20 >> Positive comments, e.g., "I've reviewed this document and believe it = is ready for publication", are welcome! This is useful and important, = even from authors. Objections, concerns, and suggestions are also = welcomed at this time. >>=20 >> Thank you, >> NETMOD Chairs >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> netmod mailing list >> netmod@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod >=20 > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod --Apple-Mail=_B38C0F2E-2B6C-4C9B-9E34-3C530E2D7C96 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Juergen,

Does the update address all your = concerns?  Do you feel there is
a need for another LC

Hi Balazs,

Did you mean to send this to = the netmod-chairs alias?  Oh well, as
 long= we=E2=80=99re here, following are some questions/comments:

Have the YANG modules = been validated and tested for formatting?
(i.e., = pyang -f yang --keep-comments --yang-line-length 69 = filename) 

Have the examples in the draft validated against the YANG = module?

Please = review the Normative/Informative status of the references.
Not looking carefully, but RFCs 2119 and 8174 should be = Normative, 
and I think RFCs 3688 and 6020 = should be Informative, right?

All of the =E2=80=9Cimport=E2=80=9D = statements in the YANG module are missing a
=E2=80=9Creference=E2=80=9D statement.
Please add a paragraph = to Section 5.2 preceding the YANG module
indicating all the aforementioned Normative = references.

The = copyright in the YANG module needs to be 2020 (not 2019)

Please ensure a blank = line between paragraphs in the =E2=80=9Cdescription"
statements.

Please add a statement to the Introduction regarding why the = module
Isn=E2=80=99t compliant with NMDA.

The tree diagram does = not adhere to the syntax described in 
draft-ietf-netmod-yang-data-ext.  Please update the = first sentence 
in Section 5.1 to also = reference draft-ietf-netmod-yang-data-ext.

Please ensure that the planning-text = version of the draft passes
IDNITS (https://www6.ietf.org/tools/idnits) at the =E2=80=9Cverbose= output=E2=80=9D
level and correct any issues = found, or explain why they shouldn=E2=80=99t
be = corrected.


Thanks,
Kent  // shepherd


On Feb 14, 2020, at 11:03 AM, = Bal=C3=A1zs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com> wrote:

Hello = Chairs,
I replied to Juergen, and exchanged some = additional mails with him. I updated the draft to = draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format-07. Please take it forward = in the process.

https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=3Ded368c2e-b1bcaefa-ed36c= cb5-0cc47ad93e6a-1bf0817821133165&q=3D1&e=3Db8630aed-b037-42b0-a57= 9-0e6e8067e0eb&u=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftools.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-ietf-ne= tmod-yang-instance-file-format-07
Regards Balazs

-----Original Message-----
From: = netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Kent Watsen
Sent: 2020. febru=C3=A1r 9., vas=C3=A1rnap 20:23
To: netmod@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [netmod] WG = Last Call: draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format-06

This message closes the WGLC.

Authors, please respond to Juergen=E2=80=99s message from Jan = 20, ultimately posting an update to the draft.

Thanks,
Kent // as shepherd



On Jan 7, 2020, at 7:41 AM, Kent Watsen = <kent+ietf@watsen.net> wrote:


This begins a two-week Working Group Last Call (WGLC) on = draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format-06.  The WGLC ends on = Jan 21.  Please send your comments to the working group mailing = list.

Positive comments, e.g., "I've = reviewed this document and believe it is ready for publication", are = welcome!  This is useful and important, even from authors. =  Objections, concerns, and suggestions are also welcomed at this = time.

Thank you,
NETMOD = Chairs

_______________________________________________
netmod mailing list
netmod@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod

_______________________________________________
netmod mailing list
netmod@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod

= --Apple-Mail=_B38C0F2E-2B6C-4C9B-9E34-3C530E2D7C96-- From nobody Mon Feb 17 18:24:49 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietf.org Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8FD6120024; Sun, 16 Feb 2020 16:56:04 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: netmod@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.117.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: netmod@ietf.org Message-ID: <158190096488.5841.1217846838340603455@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2020 16:56:04 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [netmod] I-D Action: draft-ietf-netmod-factory-default-12.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2020 00:56:05 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Network Modeling WG of the IETF. Title : Factory Default Setting Authors : Qin Wu Balazs Lengyel Ye Niu Filename : draft-ietf-netmod-factory-default-12.txt Pages : 12 Date : 2020-02-16 Abstract: This document defines a method to reset a server to its factory default content. The reset operation may be used, e.g., when the existing configuration has major errors so re-starting the configuration process from scratch is the best option. A new "factory-reset" RPC is defined. When resetting a device, all previous configuration settings will be lost and replaced by the factory default content. A new optional "factory-default" read-only datastore is defined, that contains the factory default configuration for the device. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-factory-default/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netmod-factory-default-12 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netmod-factory-default-12 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-netmod-factory-default-12 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Feb 17 18:30:49 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D120812004D for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 03:15:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3Wli2RMDtyAw for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 03:15:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.chopps.org (smtp.chopps.org [54.88.81.56]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1841120046 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 03:15:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from stubbs.int.chopps.org (047-050-069-038.biz.spectrum.com [47.50.69.38]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by smtp.chopps.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4AE8760B4D; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 11:15:55 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.40.2.2.4\)) From: Christian Hopps In-Reply-To: <14832a78-ff8c-b923-09ba-207c2cf01362@alumni.stanford.edu> Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2020 06:15:54 -0500 Cc: Christian Hopps , netmod@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <155499006434.22705.5858614581630974980.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7F3B9E7F-6AD8-4801-AE60-9F2D704DC69B@chopps.org> <2ee6b71c-bd2c-4676-9e14-cb240c6845c9@www.fastmail.com> <714842CF-A65A-40FD-A62D-6FA7E1A6801F@chopps.org> <9FECF49A-65E5-436F-973A-7538CFC974E8@chopps.org> <14832a78-ff8c-b923-09ba-207c2cf01362@alumni.stanford.edu> To: Randy Presuhn X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.40.2.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Alexey Melnikov's Discuss on draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags-07: (with DISCUSS) X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2020 11:15:58 -0000 > On Feb 14, 2020, at 1:05 PM, Randy Presuhn = wrote: >=20 > Hi - >=20 > On 2/14/2020 3:21 AM, Christian Hopps wrote: >> How about I add this to the description of "typedef tag" in the = module: >>=20 >> description >> "A tag is a type 'string' value that does not include = carriage >> return, newline or tab characters. It SHOULD begin with a >> registered prefix; however, tags without a registered = prefix >> - SHOULD NOT be treated as invalid."; >> + SHOULD NOT be treated as invalid. For the purposes of = comparison >> + non-ascii strings should use 'NFC' (RFC5198) = normalization"; >> } >>=20 >=20 > There are other considerations beyond normalization form. > For the tip of the iceberg, see the definition of SnmpAdminString > in RFC 3411, or the "SHOULD be avoided" stuff in RFC 5198. Do you think that the above is appropriate to include, or should be left = out as doing more harm than helping? BTW, I did look at the "SHOULD be avoided" (occurs twice that I saw) = once dealing with LFs and CRs which lucky for us is not part of a tags = allowable characters. " typedef tag { type string { length "1..max"; pattern '[\S ]+'; } " The other is about private use unicode, and I don't know anything about = that. I think we either include the diff quoted above, or do nothing, as this = isn't the document, as we all seem to agree, to fix the larger unicode = issues with YANG string type. Thanks, Chris. >=20 > For things like tags where one would like to minimize accidental > visual punning, I'd suggest NFKC should probably be given some > consideration. Excellent presentation of the issues is > available at https://unicode.org/reports/tr15/ >=20 > That said, these are issues that were raised in the earliest days of = Netmod / > Netconf, and no one should be surprised that they haven't gone away by > themselves. So I find my self in ironic agreement with Andy that it = doesn't > make sense to wait for / impose a global solution, because there's = plenty > of evidence that having all sorts of ill-defined cases of questionable > interoperability in theory hasn't been sufficient to prevent adoption = of > the technology. >=20 > Randy >=20 > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod From nobody Mon Feb 17 18:34:29 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A673B120812; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 06:08:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.521 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.521 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata: 7KLWRRDNuLaTKjC+ZoIWsEzYGVIrPNzol490xyb+5RZIH5yQoS6v5eB+MFZ/JfWqf8QwVrvSjCweQd3JB6ewVW9mWrH/hI0X5i+lHfmTG784Kr7e9TcSOe/LfQ7DA8v8sy9sQ0zU9Ztx2V2Apl7UOg== x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 2637e4f9-7f73-45d2-0315-08d7b3b2baa6 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 17 Feb 2020 14:07:30.9948 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 1f8NC02Gnxwolf5QFBg04DI0BLJvecP8Qcd4gK+qYoeYHJ2AusWrxTFVEGMGs7i2cae7m8FKcE3LxEvm4zOFsQ== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MN2PR11MB4112 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.12, xch-rcd-002.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-11.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Alexey Melnikov's Discuss on draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags-07: (with DISCUSS) X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2020 14:08:19 -0000 Hi Juergen, Please see inline ... > -----Original Message----- > From: Sch=F6nw=E4lder, J=FCrgen > Sent: 14 February 2020 14:31 > To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) > Cc: Alexey Melnikov ; netmod@ietf.org; Joel > Jaeggli ; Christian Hopps ; The IESG > > Subject: Re: [netmod] Alexey Melnikov's Discuss on draft-ietf-netmod- > module-tags-07: (with DISCUSS) >=20 > Rob, >=20 > I think there are two related issues here: >=20 > a) If we need normalized strings (to avoid comparison suprises), we > should have a common type for them; rfc6991-bis would be a proper > home. I am _not_ saying we should delay the tags document for this, > but we should think about providing a solution that can be easily > reused. Right now, we often use strings as part of keys, which can > lead to comparison issues. [RW]=20 I agree. Note, I am also not proposing that we delay module-tags for rfc69= 91-bis. RFC 7950 states that strings are not normalized by default (section 9.4.2).= Thinking about this some more, I think that it is reasonable to make it t= he client's responsibility to normalize strings, if required. Chris, this would mean that no change to the typedef description is require= d. >=20 > b) It seems that normalized strings only solve part of the problem. If > an organization creates names for 'things', the organization likely > wants to further restrict the format of these names to something > sensible to avoid fun with different kinds of hyphens or emojis or > ... So while creative unicode characters may technically work, > there will likely be good reasons to avoid some of them. (There are > reasons why we have coding styles for most programming languages.) > These rules may, however, differ between organizations. >=20 > We should not confuse a) and b). If IANA needs additional guidelines for > tags (their coding style for tags), then we should provide these > guidelines, i.e., this is a type b) action. The type a) action is needed > to technically ensure that comparisons do not lead to surprises. But a) > won't be an answer for all type b) issues. Of course, we could give IANA = a > 'coding style' that avoids any normalization issues. This would make IANA > assigned tags safe but would not avoid comparison surprises for other > sources of tags. [RW]=20 So, solving B seems reasonable for the IANA defined module tags, following = Alexey's suggestion of referencing RFC 5198 for normalization. Thanks, Rob >=20 > /js >=20 > On Fri, Feb 14, 2020 at 10:30:50AM +0000, Rob Wilton (rwilton) wrote: > > Hi Juergen, > > > > This sounds potentially useful to me, although should this be for > general unicode strings (e.g. ones that might include spaces), or just > identifiers (without any spaces)?. Is this something that could/should g= o > into rfc6991-bis, or at least be discussed in that context? > > > > I would have thought that normalization would be required wherever a > configurable unicode string is used as a list key, or leaf-list. > > > > Thanks, > > Rob > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: iesg On Behalf Of Sch=F6nw=E4lder, J=FC= rgen > > > Sent: 13 February 2020 18:39 > > > To: Alexey Melnikov > > > Cc: netmod-chairs@ietf.org; draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags@ietf.org; > > > netmod@ietf.org; Joel Jaeggli ; Christian Hopps > > > ; The IESG > > > Subject: Re: [netmod] Alexey Melnikov's Discuss on > > > draft-ietf-netmod- > > > module-tags-07: (with DISCUSS) > > > > > > And a longer term solution might be to define a YANG Net-Unicode > > > string datatype that can be used in all situations where > > > non-normalized strings may cause problems. The problem (if one > > > agrees it is one) is likely much bigger than just YANG tags, there > > > likely are many uses of YANG strings where normalization would be > desirable. > > > > > > /js > > > > > > On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 01:10:02PM +0000, Alexey Melnikov wrote: > > > > Hi Christian, > > > > > > > > On Thu, Feb 13, 2020, at 12:30 AM, Christian Hopps wrote: > > > > > The intent in the document is to place as few restrictions on > > > > > tags as possible to allow for future-proofing and organic growth > > > > > of use both within and outside of SDOs. For standard tags we > > > > > trust IANA (and the human behind the process) to make the call > > > > > on whether a tag is already present. :) > > > > > > > > And the problem with that is that because there might be multiple > > > > ways > > > to encode in Unicode visually indistinguishable tags IANA would end > > > up asking IESG for help. > > > > > > > > So you need to at minimum specify a Unicode normalization form to > > > > use. I > > > suggest you normatively reference RFC 5198 here. > > > > > > > > > Having worked for a company where a lot of XML string data was > > > > > non-ascii I find limiting to ascii to be rather restrictive. > > > > > > > > Best Regards, > > > > Alexey > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > Chris. > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 11, 2019, at 9:41 AM, Alexey Melnikov via Datatracker > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Alexey Melnikov has entered the following ballot position for > > > > > > draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags-07: Discuss > > > > > > > > > > > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply > > > > > > to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel > > > > > > free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please refer to > > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > > > > > > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found > here: > > > > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags > > > > > > / > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > ---- > > > > > > ---- > > > > > > DISCUSS: > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > ---- > > > > > > ---- > > > > > > > > > > > > This is generally a fine document, but after checking RFC 7950 > > > > > > syntax for strings I question why you think you need non ASCII > > > > > > tags. There are so many problems that can arise from that. For > > > > > > example, how would IANA be able to enforce uniqueness of > > > > > > Unicode tags written in different Unicode canonicalisation > forms? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > netmod mailing list > > > > netmod@ietf.org > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > > > > > > -- > > > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > > > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | German= y > > > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 > > >=20 > -- > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Mon Feb 17 18:34:52 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietf.org Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6AC6120844; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 06:12:49 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Kent Watsen via Datatracker To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.117.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Cc: netmod-chairs@ietf.org, kent+ietf@watsen.net, iesg-secretary@ietf.org, Kent Watsen , netmod@ietf.org Message-ID: <158194876993.17973.14369850607150275867.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2020 06:12:49 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [netmod] Publication has been requested for draft-ietf-netmod-factory-default-12 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2020 14:12:51 -0000 Kent Watsen has requested publication of draft-ietf-netmod-factory-default-12 as Proposed Standard on behalf of the NETMOD working group. Please verify the document's state at https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-factory-default/ From nobody Mon Feb 17 18:38:16 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D569120072; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 07:40:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e7zR3Q7vZ2NK; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 07:40:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.chopps.org (smtp.chopps.org [54.88.81.56]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70F6912001E; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 07:40:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from stubbs.int.chopps.org (047-050-069-038.biz.spectrum.com [47.50.69.38]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by smtp.chopps.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4195260B79; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 15:40:31 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.40.2.2.4\)) From: Christian Hopps In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2020 10:40:30 -0500 Cc: Christian Hopps , =?utf-8?B?IlNjaMO2bnfDpGxkZXIsIErDvHJnZW4i?= , Alexey Melnikov , "netmod@ietf.org" , Joel Jaeggli , The IESG Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <72E551FB-DA3E-4120-BC78-F3555B7496C3@chopps.org> References: <155499006434.22705.5858614581630974980.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7F3B9E7F-6AD8-4801-AE60-9F2D704DC69B@chopps.org> <2ee6b71c-bd2c-4676-9e14-cb240c6845c9@www.fastmail.com> <20200213183857.zhn2eiiztqipwsq3@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20200214143030.qfzhqdlk2gpd4tc3@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> To: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.40.2.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Alexey Melnikov's Discuss on draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags-07: (with DISCUSS) X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2020 15:40:38 -0000 > On Feb 17, 2020, at 9:07 AM, Rob Wilton (rwilton) = wrote: >=20 > Hi Juergen, >=20 > Please see inline ... >=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder, J=C3=BCrgen = >> Sent: 14 February 2020 14:31 >> To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) >> Cc: Alexey Melnikov ; netmod@ietf.org; Joel >> Jaeggli ; Christian Hopps ; The = IESG >> >> Subject: Re: [netmod] Alexey Melnikov's Discuss on draft-ietf-netmod- >> module-tags-07: (with DISCUSS) >>=20 >> Rob, >>=20 >> I think there are two related issues here: >>=20 >> a) If we need normalized strings (to avoid comparison suprises), we >> should have a common type for them; rfc6991-bis would be a proper >> home. I am _not_ saying we should delay the tags document for this, >> but we should think about providing a solution that can be easily >> reused. Right now, we often use strings as part of keys, which can >> lead to comparison issues. > [RW]=20 >=20 > I agree. Note, I am also not proposing that we delay module-tags for = rfc6991-bis. >=20 > RFC 7950 states that strings are not normalized by default (section = 9.4.2). Thinking about this some more, I think that it is reasonable to = make it the client's responsibility to normalize strings, if required. >=20 > Chris, this would mean that no change to the typedef description is = required. >=20 >>=20 >> b) It seems that normalized strings only solve part of the problem. = If >> an organization creates names for 'things', the organization likely >> wants to further restrict the format of these names to something >> sensible to avoid fun with different kinds of hyphens or emojis or >> ... So while creative unicode characters may technically work, >> there will likely be good reasons to avoid some of them. (There are >> reasons why we have coding styles for most programming languages.) >> These rules may, however, differ between organizations. >>=20 >> We should not confuse a) and b). If IANA needs additional guidelines = for >> tags (their coding style for tags), then we should provide these >> guidelines, i.e., this is a type b) action. The type a) action is = needed >> to technically ensure that comparisons do not lead to surprises. But = a) >> won't be an answer for all type b) issues. Of course, we could give = IANA a >> 'coding style' that avoids any normalization issues. This would make = IANA >> assigned tags safe but would not avoid comparison surprises for other >> sources of tags. > [RW]=20 >=20 > So, solving B seems reasonable for the IANA defined module tags, = following Alexey's suggestion of referencing RFC 5198 for normalization. I will not put the additional text in the typedef and instead put it in = the guidance for the IANA registry then: This registry allocates tags that have the registered prefix "ietf:". New values should be well considered and not achievable -through a combination of already existing IETF tags. +through a combination of already existing IETF tags. For comparing +non-ascii strings, 'NFC' [[RFC5198]] normalization SHOULD be used. Unless there are further objections, I believe this, and a small change = to the security section suggested by Benjamin K, will clear the = remaining DISCUSS so I will republish soon. Thanks, Chris. > Thanks, > Rob >=20 >=20 >>=20 >> /js >>=20 >> On Fri, Feb 14, 2020 at 10:30:50AM +0000, Rob Wilton (rwilton) wrote: >>> Hi Juergen, >>>=20 >>> This sounds potentially useful to me, although should this be for >> general unicode strings (e.g. ones that might include spaces), or = just >> identifiers (without any spaces)?. Is this something that = could/should go >> into rfc6991-bis, or at least be discussed in that context? >>>=20 >>> I would have thought that normalization would be required wherever a >> configurable unicode string is used as a list key, or leaf-list. >>>=20 >>> Thanks, >>> Rob >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: iesg On Behalf Of Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder= , J=C3=BCrgen >>>> Sent: 13 February 2020 18:39 >>>> To: Alexey Melnikov >>>> Cc: netmod-chairs@ietf.org; draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags@ietf.org; >>>> netmod@ietf.org; Joel Jaeggli ; Christian Hopps >>>> ; The IESG >>>> Subject: Re: [netmod] Alexey Melnikov's Discuss on >>>> draft-ietf-netmod- >>>> module-tags-07: (with DISCUSS) >>>>=20 >>>> And a longer term solution might be to define a YANG Net-Unicode >>>> string datatype that can be used in all situations where >>>> non-normalized strings may cause problems. The problem (if one >>>> agrees it is one) is likely much bigger than just YANG tags, there >>>> likely are many uses of YANG strings where normalization would be >> desirable. >>>>=20 >>>> /js >>>>=20 >>>> On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 01:10:02PM +0000, Alexey Melnikov wrote: >>>>> Hi Christian, >>>>>=20 >>>>> On Thu, Feb 13, 2020, at 12:30 AM, Christian Hopps wrote: >>>>>> The intent in the document is to place as few restrictions on >>>>>> tags as possible to allow for future-proofing and organic growth >>>>>> of use both within and outside of SDOs. For standard tags we >>>>>> trust IANA (and the human behind the process) to make the call >>>>>> on whether a tag is already present. :) >>>>>=20 >>>>> And the problem with that is that because there might be multiple >>>>> ways >>>> to encode in Unicode visually indistinguishable tags IANA would end >>>> up asking IESG for help. >>>>>=20 >>>>> So you need to at minimum specify a Unicode normalization form to >>>>> use. I >>>> suggest you normatively reference RFC 5198 here. >>>>>=20 >>>>>> Having worked for a company where a lot of XML string data was >>>>>> non-ascii I find limiting to ascii to be rather restrictive. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Best Regards, >>>>> Alexey >>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>> Chris. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> On Apr 11, 2019, at 9:41 AM, Alexey Melnikov via Datatracker >>>> wrote: >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Alexey Melnikov has entered the following ballot position for >>>>>>> draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags-07: Discuss >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply >>>>>>> to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel >>>>>>> free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Please refer to >>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html >>>>>>> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found >> here: >>>>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags >>>>>>> / >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> ---- >>>>>>> ---- >>>>>>> DISCUSS: >>>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> ---- >>>>>>> ---- >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> This is generally a fine document, but after checking RFC 7950 >>>>>>> syntax for strings I question why you think you need non ASCII >>>>>>> tags. There are so many problems that can arise from that. For >>>>>>> example, how would IANA be able to enforce uniqueness of >>>>>>> Unicode tags written in different Unicode canonicalisation >> forms? >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> netmod mailing list >>>>> netmod@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod >>>>=20 >>>> -- >>>> Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH >>>> Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | = Germany >>>> Fax: +49 421 200 3103 >>>=20 >>=20 >> -- >> Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH >> Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | = Germany >> Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Mon Feb 17 18:41:14 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB02C120890 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 08:50:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.92 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.92 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 70kIUTEZgCQE for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 08:50:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pg1-f177.google.com (mail-pg1-f177.google.com [209.85.215.177]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CB39E12089F for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 08:50:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pg1-f177.google.com with SMTP id 6so9501073pgk.0 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 08:50:49 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding :content-language; bh=U9iuKxvae3Dlcm/5P/JT09SJLoAZp+ak5WigND911RA=; b=TydjGvrbFUMMcvkiLkRpXDuy66JYlh2FGtgSLVsjnUWb9xDqoIcxrUHfHorqkExm4j nEWG4IdzTWTsSmU+dauVCU/EIPK1o7uz5IfnmsQ7eZsKGl2ZHnKxjSA8SNeLeOh+xjof vsrZNzYORKNhGE8SkwTaPYpiOIxJXktfLbG3ZAlAnbUrOx4Ynert6nbu1+3UxuUAznOc kR2z+BDkcl6W1sbKlsq/BXAf1dpMdif0Cyu2l8wB3H4eng2GMEQxEkxwGvBxQIwvaEgX xaNEwM+DZU1KV1pAHBgK0MnapMCZZokGsJBLGf739f8LNePgangRtKqOWg8QzAUWO8Pl M8Gw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWNfi7baDy0WUABPNS7Ci/BFSBKHEYBfXtx41hpapZIfZwaIQfj kj+21gSw+ml21X00Y8ttw90zETWbhL8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyOVZsF1OIW/VZofvgVjzBOZzyD6PtLpNGSncVrEylX/PjsnZ7Y2AlDyQVZC36oPm82UXgcZQ== X-Received: by 2002:a63:7c4d:: with SMTP id l13mr18709462pgn.275.1581958248301; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 08:50:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.106] (c-73-231-235-186.hsd1.ca.comcast.net. [73.231.235.186]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id z10sm1489980pgf.35.2020.02.17.08.50.47 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 17 Feb 2020 08:50:47 -0800 (PST) To: netmod@ietf.org References: <155499006434.22705.5858614581630974980.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7F3B9E7F-6AD8-4801-AE60-9F2D704DC69B@chopps.org> <2ee6b71c-bd2c-4676-9e14-cb240c6845c9@www.fastmail.com> <714842CF-A65A-40FD-A62D-6FA7E1A6801F@chopps.org> <9FECF49A-65E5-436F-973A-7538CFC974E8@chopps.org> <14832a78-ff8c-b923-09ba-207c2cf01362@alumni.stanford.edu> From: Randy Presuhn Message-ID: <3a538bc4-b93e-2027-7870-d59e8609944b@alumni.stanford.edu> Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2020 08:51:11 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-Antivirus: Avast (VPS 200217-0, 02/17/2020), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Alexey Melnikov's Discuss on draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags-07: (with DISCUSS) X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2020 16:50:55 -0000 Hi - On 2/17/2020 3:15 AM, Christian Hopps wrote: ... > BTW, I did look at the "SHOULD be avoided" (occurs twice that I saw) once dealing with LFs and CRs which lucky for us is not part of a tags allowable characters. There are lots of other things that complicate life.  The Yang string definition circumscribes some of them, but not all. > " > typedef tag { > type string { > length "1..max"; > pattern '[\S ]+'; > } > " This pattern doesn't make sense to me when I try to understand it using https://www.w3.org/TR/2004/REC-xmlschema-2-20041028/#charcter-classes It excludes "symbols", but permits, for example, paragraph separators and formatting characters and such delights as zero-width non-joiner. Also, in complementing the "all symbols" category, it seems to me it already permits space, so I don't see why it calls out space again. Randy From nobody Mon Feb 17 18:42:12 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43E5F120089; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 09:10:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.436 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.436 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_SBL_CSS=3.335, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=jacobsuniversity.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LZDSao8powMw; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 09:09:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from EUR03-AM5-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr30065.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.3.65]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 23618120088; 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Mon, 17 Feb 2020 17:09:53 +0000 Received: from localhost (212.201.44.247) by AM4PR0202CA0015.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:200:89::25) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2729.23 via Frontend Transport; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 17:09:53 +0000 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sch=F6nw=E4lder=2C_J=FCrgen?= To: Christian Hopps CC: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" , Alexey Melnikov , "netmod@ietf.org" , Joel Jaeggli , The IESG Thread-Topic: [netmod] Alexey Melnikov's Discuss on draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags-07: (with DISCUSS) Thread-Index: AQHV4pzaaJjh2ww68Uallfbdbai0wKgafm0AgABC9gCABMxAD4AAF0UA Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2020 17:09:53 +0000 Message-ID: <20200217170952.rkgyjdtvepfh2lzf@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> References: <155499006434.22705.5858614581630974980.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7F3B9E7F-6AD8-4801-AE60-9F2D704DC69B@chopps.org> <2ee6b71c-bd2c-4676-9e14-cb240c6845c9@www.fastmail.com> <20200213183857.zhn2eiiztqipwsq3@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20200214143030.qfzhqdlk2gpd4tc3@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <72E551FB-DA3E-4120-BC78-F3555B7496C3@chopps.org> In-Reply-To: <72E551FB-DA3E-4120-BC78-F3555B7496C3@chopps.org> Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sch=F6nw=E4lder=2C_J=FCrgen?= Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-clientproxiedby: AM4PR0202CA0015.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:200:89::25) To DB6P190MB0312.EURP190.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:6:34::31) authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de; x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-originating-ip: [212.201.44.247] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 9bc8e05f-a923-41fe-ee04-08d7b3cc34c3 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: DB6P190MB0117: x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:9508; x-forefront-prvs: 0316567485 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10009020)(39850400004)(396003)(376002)(346002)(366004)(136003)(199004)(189003)(5660300002)(8936002)(1076003)(4326008)(786003)(316002)(2906002)(956004)(3450700001)(81156014)(66574012)(8676002)(81166006)(71200400001)(6496006)(52116002)(6486002)(478600001)(6916009)(54906003)(66946007)(66446008)(64756008)(66556008)(53546011)(66476007)(16526019)(186003)(26005)(86362001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:DB6P190MB0117; H:DB6P190MB0312.EURP190.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: jacobs-university.de does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata: //aXO9dXCETUkIYCeBON3BgOXQCZQrko2+JVNtEw9RhZ30Kyfki+PIuhbGyv6/tHW3O94UnoqFmUucLaiogIhYyGhJ0Mt9LNtEVcbMP6I/C15+UDjAwkHm1Ex9R7FE603phS6t9+mttaaJdOLIyaEg== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: <92E62A5522641942AF73BFA56082EF89@EURP190.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: jacobs-university.de X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 9bc8e05f-a923-41fe-ee04-08d7b3cc34c3 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 17 Feb 2020 17:09:53.7339 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: f78e973e-5c0b-4ab8-bbd7-9887c95a8ebd X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 6hlfLxXHok2tinmHFele3bjb1Ld2oPt+2rHFMZCYsxuSNdNlFaHdBUMwici2YJmDr4UdYctUzXfedqiCjW6KIJK08Qq6+UhJCSJBhVHyciI= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB6P190MB0117 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Alexey Melnikov's Discuss on draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags-07: (with DISCUSS) X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2020 17:10:01 -0000 On Mon, Feb 17, 2020 at 10:40:30AM -0500, Christian Hopps wrote: >=20 >=20 > > On Feb 17, 2020, at 9:07 AM, Rob Wilton (rwilton) w= rote: > >=20 > > Hi Juergen, > >=20 > > Please see inline ... > >=20 > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Sch=F6nw=E4lder, J=FCrgen > >> Sent: 14 February 2020 14:31 > >> To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) > >> Cc: Alexey Melnikov ; netmod@ietf.org; Joel > >> Jaeggli ; Christian Hopps ; The I= ESG > >> > >> Subject: Re: [netmod] Alexey Melnikov's Discuss on draft-ietf-netmod- > >> module-tags-07: (with DISCUSS) > >>=20 > >> Rob, > >>=20 > >> I think there are two related issues here: > >>=20 > >> a) If we need normalized strings (to avoid comparison suprises), we > >> should have a common type for them; rfc6991-bis would be a proper > >> home. I am _not_ saying we should delay the tags document for this, > >> but we should think about providing a solution that can be easily > >> reused. Right now, we often use strings as part of keys, which can > >> lead to comparison issues. > > [RW]=20 > >=20 > > I agree. Note, I am also not proposing that we delay module-tags for r= fc6991-bis. > >=20 > > RFC 7950 states that strings are not normalized by default (section 9.4= .2). Thinking about this some more, I think that it is reasonable to make = it the client's responsibility to normalize strings, if required. > >=20 > > Chris, this would mean that no change to the typedef description is req= uired. > >=20 > >>=20 > >> b) It seems that normalized strings only solve part of the problem. If > >> an organization creates names for 'things', the organization likely > >> wants to further restrict the format of these names to something > >> sensible to avoid fun with different kinds of hyphens or emojis or > >> ... So while creative unicode characters may technically work, > >> there will likely be good reasons to avoid some of them. (There are > >> reasons why we have coding styles for most programming languages.) > >> These rules may, however, differ between organizations. > >>=20 > >> We should not confuse a) and b). If IANA needs additional guidelines f= or > >> tags (their coding style for tags), then we should provide these > >> guidelines, i.e., this is a type b) action. The type a) action is need= ed > >> to technically ensure that comparisons do not lead to surprises. But a= ) > >> won't be an answer for all type b) issues. Of course, we could give IA= NA a > >> 'coding style' that avoids any normalization issues. This would make I= ANA > >> assigned tags safe but would not avoid comparison surprises for other > >> sources of tags. > > [RW]=20 > >=20 > > So, solving B seems reasonable for the IANA defined module tags, follow= ing Alexey's suggestion of referencing RFC 5198 for normalization. >=20 > I will not put the additional text in the typedef and instead put it in t= he guidance for the IANA registry then: >=20 > This registry allocates tags that have the registered prefix > "ietf:". New values should be well considered and not achievable > -through a combination of already existing IETF tags. > +through a combination of already existing IETF tags. For comparing > +non-ascii strings, 'NFC' [[RFC5198]] normalization SHOULD be used. >=20 > Unless there are further objections, I believe this, and a small change t= o the security section suggested by Benjamin K, will clear the remaining DI= SCUSS so I will republish soon. Perhaps this wording is clearer about who is responsible for normalization: -through a combination of already existing IETF tags. +through a combination of already existing IETF tags. IANA assigned +tags must conform to Net-Unicode as defined in RFC 5198 and they shall +not need normalization. And then lets hope that others assigning tags follow this advice. ;-) /js --=20 Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Mon Feb 17 18:45:54 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FAAB12086C; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 11:42:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2CYkOIiGdMOO; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 11:42:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from nagasaki.bogus.com (nagasaki.bogus.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 36BC4120866; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 11:42:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from jmbp.local ([IPv6:2601:647:4200:5811:1404:b125:cb24:4770]) (authenticated bits=0) by nagasaki.bogus.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 01HJg1ph002190; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 19:42:01 GMT (envelope-from joelja@bogus.com) X-Authentication-Warning: nagasaki.bogus.com: Host [IPv6:2601:647:4200:5811:1404:b125:cb24:4770] claimed to be jmbp.local To: netmod@ietf.org, "netmod-chairs@ietf.org" From: Joel Jaeggli X-Pep-Version: 2.0 Message-ID: <687b863b-4d54-db67-e3af-b08588c85360@bogus.com> Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2020 11:42:01 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------4DC665A41B2600058FE875E7" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: [netmod] WGLC - Comparison of NMDA datastores - draft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff-03 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2020 19:42:04 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------4DC665A41B2600058FE875E7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Greetings, This was supposed to get processed shortly after IETF 106, however I lost= track of it. We are therefore running a 2 week WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod= -nmda-diff-03. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff/ the 02 - 03 diff is available here: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3Ddraft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff-02&url2=3D= draft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff-03 Please send email to the list indicating your support or concerns. This WGLC will conclude Monday March 2nd. Thank you, NETMOD WG Chairs --------------4DC665A41B2600058FE875E7 Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="pEpkey.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="pEpkey.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- mQENBF0zjHcBCAC/VccTV8/Owi3MQVGop8umVKn4stHzV/F4/5+ixMnzkhhRsI1L 305ew6Uh+ypYkKn28X7B5+3zNIRxK+JKkV9QKufSBPFcTd41xoknMtCMSr5QZIln A61tLz2oCIdB6eiTrzI60pHwd0idCOmAEqUP8JLfaQZK9JNQ416Kb/8CHiDhkG0N 17l0EYT+uVVBlUbSAgbaw6gO2csUPeASB6oiFd9AdCBVMQsQ4Q57Giz1oFam/FJw igtZ4TG+fW8dM1k8ngyonN8RzdTwnkkPLCNrttdOfjrv9llianW9Jz48l52ViT39 S82tYLkDuNbQ0AJKK8lniYz0yvs47k5WHF/VABEBAAG0H0pvZWwgSmFlZ2dsaSA8 am9lbGphQGJvZ3VzLmNvbT6JAVQEEwEIAD4WIQTSCLPd1dloH5f5hauFzc47B3GZ 7AUCXTOMdwIbAwUJAeEzgAULCQgHAgYVCgkICwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRCFzc47 B3GZ7HcvCAChCaaK8xnP5z7bxz5y5tX15fpEzjjhz0fHe32gJ2uZblWzhX6ch/6z 2k51Pcnf0FJj788Nu+WI0kF/U81jByvbz5WPlEBm7E/D0HLxsIWkbt0AlNjiDIP8 WuTZ0Lom/m7YFzwLTN7g+MI5Jqui/LEKcKAqoo5ioGsDGOIa9Fq7/WWkx7fIYvTR pqSpPKdZs3kz1z9QvncyM3IrY7fOMD4hShCwcA2HU+rl61g6aIZmpG7LXT0ZlHfY UMk8zxL/8/S89p7ZPxhxrjDeYMPxlexmWY9KZS6Ek6ugO2udHeEDagpUpUrmqEgg tK8qSsmclqqWXWps5Bl8JLueamnwV+77uQENBF0zjHcBCADWGXodjIueeHPimoj7 55ExPKJvP8ECZProTxJ86N5xmLP9Fbs70FKSxRwv4at1fWgvEwOU9w0ibq7CT+wo neboxFsWh6GEHlskSlgr5MpqCJXSpcoHABR7aBaBecFAD2YS3Zaf7GUCHcl51Bb8 7Xuj59tS8S5RCMtQ5spAL1unLt/rIBbEaiJR24/vJQLuZAJtAeUQgy0s2daBFKfL j/7AIVGTpbFSpM3iiOOjFnvQsWapzxheLNS57OY7DaQWDsd/E8zFHcTJLpotST4r AkWnXvrCxOkFKX+WJ1TKiy8I0enIa1U8aB+9YswHy4fE3GbGqeMDjSxCziNLKKe+ MlZ1ABEBAAGJATwEGAEIACYWIQTSCLPd1dloH5f5hauFzc47B3GZ7AUCXTOMdwIb DAUJAeEzgAAKCRCFzc47B3GZ7G9dB/9mvCNEjuJVv9IdcziUFrWX8r0rZPRTw+iH 1EKxpE5RWU+LTf3dNJWz/s8pItLkevjIz4tLOdoAa8awj4xqoLkoVFr/LTU7ugaF ZksanT5/E5ZsDm/ngsdUAgOwZvalOU6cdj7Utzk1xWbGfPLnx86a8VzEaCMtzNX6 roW3zJPBcxnDekuvuHnEiAvUBDGhf2GcVafVRuyM0MOlT7jQ0B8N6mcmojJFSJvO 4jFLiT2/9vPgl4i41S3P8jbjEBQ24U26BDBuB3yNOvoaPDcRUsC1sKHHZCr1cwan 0E4HFJ5kouvANneQTsH+QtWnGZ9mtDrmR+qZ4p7+4dXve+HsG64S =3DmE9q -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- --------------4DC665A41B2600058FE875E7-- From nobody Mon Feb 17 18:46:00 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5966F120864; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 11:44:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.791 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.791 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, LOCALPART_IN_SUBJECT=1.107, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tmKsD6VXBkVO; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 11:44:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from nagasaki.bogus.com (nagasaki.bogus.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 23985120052; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 11:44:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from jmbp.local ([IPv6:2601:647:4200:5811:1404:b125:cb24:4770]) (authenticated bits=0) by nagasaki.bogus.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 01HJiasr002254; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 19:44:36 GMT (envelope-from joelja@bogus.com) X-Authentication-Warning: nagasaki.bogus.com: Host [IPv6:2601:647:4200:5811:1404:b125:cb24:4770] claimed to be jmbp.local To: "draft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff@ietf.org" , netmod@ietf.org From: Joel Jaeggli X-Pep-Version: 2.0 Message-ID: <14dcbe36-43c3-0a21-4ec8-ad78019eefea@bogus.com> Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2020 11:44:36 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------59F1E6EB0A9A3056CDE13FEE" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: [netmod] draft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff - IPR verfication request X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2020 19:44:39 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------59F1E6EB0A9A3056CDE13FEE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Authors, Contributors, WG, As part of the preparation for WG Last Call: Are you aware of any IPR that applies to drafts identified above? Please state either: "No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft" or "Yes, I'm aware of IPR that applies to this draft" If so, has this IPR been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules (see RFCs 3669, 5378 and 8179 for more details)? If yes to the above, please state either: "Yes, the IPR has been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules" or "No, the IPR has not been disclosed" If you answer no, please provide any additional details you think appropriate. If you are listed as a document author or contributor please answer the above by responding to this email regardless of whether or not you are aware of any relevant IPR. This document will not advance to the next stage until a response has been received from each author and listed contributor. NOTE: THIS APPLIES TO ALL OF YOU LISTED IN THIS MESSAGE'S TO LINES. If you are on the WG email list or attend WG meetings but are not listed as an author or contributor, we remind you of your obligations under the IETF IPR rules which encourages you to notify the IETF if you are aware of IPR of others on an IETF contribution, or to refrain from participating in any contribution or discussion related to your undisclosed IPR. For more information, please see the RFCs listed above and http://trac.tools.ietf.org/group/iesg/trac/wiki/IntellectualProperty. Thank you, NetMod WG Chairs PS Please include all listed in the headers of this message in your response. --------------59F1E6EB0A9A3056CDE13FEE Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="pEpkey.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="pEpkey.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- mQENBF0zjHcBCAC/VccTV8/Owi3MQVGop8umVKn4stHzV/F4/5+ixMnzkhhRsI1L 305ew6Uh+ypYkKn28X7B5+3zNIRxK+JKkV9QKufSBPFcTd41xoknMtCMSr5QZIln A61tLz2oCIdB6eiTrzI60pHwd0idCOmAEqUP8JLfaQZK9JNQ416Kb/8CHiDhkG0N 17l0EYT+uVVBlUbSAgbaw6gO2csUPeASB6oiFd9AdCBVMQsQ4Q57Giz1oFam/FJw igtZ4TG+fW8dM1k8ngyonN8RzdTwnkkPLCNrttdOfjrv9llianW9Jz48l52ViT39 S82tYLkDuNbQ0AJKK8lniYz0yvs47k5WHF/VABEBAAG0H0pvZWwgSmFlZ2dsaSA8 am9lbGphQGJvZ3VzLmNvbT6JAVQEEwEIAD4WIQTSCLPd1dloH5f5hauFzc47B3GZ 7AUCXTOMdwIbAwUJAeEzgAULCQgHAgYVCgkICwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRCFzc47 B3GZ7HcvCAChCaaK8xnP5z7bxz5y5tX15fpEzjjhz0fHe32gJ2uZblWzhX6ch/6z 2k51Pcnf0FJj788Nu+WI0kF/U81jByvbz5WPlEBm7E/D0HLxsIWkbt0AlNjiDIP8 WuTZ0Lom/m7YFzwLTN7g+MI5Jqui/LEKcKAqoo5ioGsDGOIa9Fq7/WWkx7fIYvTR pqSpPKdZs3kz1z9QvncyM3IrY7fOMD4hShCwcA2HU+rl61g6aIZmpG7LXT0ZlHfY UMk8zxL/8/S89p7ZPxhxrjDeYMPxlexmWY9KZS6Ek6ugO2udHeEDagpUpUrmqEgg tK8qSsmclqqWXWps5Bl8JLueamnwV+77uQENBF0zjHcBCADWGXodjIueeHPimoj7 55ExPKJvP8ECZProTxJ86N5xmLP9Fbs70FKSxRwv4at1fWgvEwOU9w0ibq7CT+wo neboxFsWh6GEHlskSlgr5MpqCJXSpcoHABR7aBaBecFAD2YS3Zaf7GUCHcl51Bb8 7Xuj59tS8S5RCMtQ5spAL1unLt/rIBbEaiJR24/vJQLuZAJtAeUQgy0s2daBFKfL j/7AIVGTpbFSpM3iiOOjFnvQsWapzxheLNS57OY7DaQWDsd/E8zFHcTJLpotST4r AkWnXvrCxOkFKX+WJ1TKiy8I0enIa1U8aB+9YswHy4fE3GbGqeMDjSxCziNLKKe+ MlZ1ABEBAAGJATwEGAEIACYWIQTSCLPd1dloH5f5hauFzc47B3GZ7AUCXTOMdwIb DAUJAeEzgAAKCRCFzc47B3GZ7G9dB/9mvCNEjuJVv9IdcziUFrWX8r0rZPRTw+iH 1EKxpE5RWU+LTf3dNJWz/s8pItLkevjIz4tLOdoAa8awj4xqoLkoVFr/LTU7ugaF ZksanT5/E5ZsDm/ngsdUAgOwZvalOU6cdj7Utzk1xWbGfPLnx86a8VzEaCMtzNX6 roW3zJPBcxnDekuvuHnEiAvUBDGhf2GcVafVRuyM0MOlT7jQ0B8N6mcmojJFSJvO 4jFLiT2/9vPgl4i41S3P8jbjEBQ24U26BDBuB3yNOvoaPDcRUsC1sKHHZCr1cwan 0E4HFJ5kouvANneQTsH+QtWnGZ9mtDrmR+qZ4p7+4dXve+HsG64S =3DmE9q -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- --------------59F1E6EB0A9A3056CDE13FEE-- From nobody Mon Feb 17 18:46:05 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 300CC120864 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 11:47:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Z-mNJBiTi204 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 11:47:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.chopps.org (smtp.chopps.org [54.88.81.56]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 984A5120052 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 11:47:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from stubbs.int.chopps.org (047-050-069-038.biz.spectrum.com [47.50.69.38]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by smtp.chopps.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3221260B79; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 19:47:38 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.40.2.2.4\)) From: Christian Hopps In-Reply-To: <3a538bc4-b93e-2027-7870-d59e8609944b@alumni.stanford.edu> Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2020 14:47:37 -0500 Cc: Christian Hopps , netmod@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <155499006434.22705.5858614581630974980.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7F3B9E7F-6AD8-4801-AE60-9F2D704DC69B@chopps.org> <2ee6b71c-bd2c-4676-9e14-cb240c6845c9@www.fastmail.com> <714842CF-A65A-40FD-A62D-6FA7E1A6801F@chopps.org> <9FECF49A-65E5-436F-973A-7538CFC974E8@chopps.org> <14832a78-ff8c-b923-09ba-207c2cf01362@alumni.stanford.edu> <3a538bc4-b93e-2027-7870-d59e8609944b@alumni.stanford.edu> To: Randy Presuhn X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.40.2.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Alexey Melnikov's Discuss on draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags-07: (with DISCUSS) X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2020 19:47:42 -0000 > On Feb 17, 2020, at 11:51 AM, Randy Presuhn = wrote: >=20 > Hi - >=20 > On 2/17/2020 3:15 AM, Christian Hopps wrote: > ... > > BTW, I did look at the "SHOULD be avoided" (occurs twice that I saw) = once dealing with LFs and CRs which lucky for us is not part of a tags = allowable characters. >=20 > There are lots of other things that complicate life. The Yang string = definition > circumscribes some of them, but not all. >=20 >> " >> typedef tag { >> type string { >> length "1..max"; >> pattern '[\S ]+'; >> } >> " >=20 > This pattern doesn't make sense to me when I try to understand it = using > https://www.w3.org/TR/2004/REC-xmlschema-2-20041028/#charcter-classes > It excludes "symbols", but permits, for example, paragraph separators = and > formatting characters and such delights as zero-width non-joiner. = Also, in > complementing the "all symbols" category, it seems to me it already = permits > space, so I don't see why it calls out space again. The intent was to have the pattern match the description immediately = below it: "A tag value is composed of a standard prefix followed by any type = 'string' value that does not include carriage return, newline or tab = characters." Does this pattern fail in doing that? If this requires anymore work to get right then I think we should drop = the pattern, as this isn't the document to come up with a better way to = deal with the apparent ugliness of UTF strings in YANG. The overriding = intent is to leave it to the users to decide what they want to put in = there. Thanks, Chris. > Randy >=20 > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod From nobody Mon Feb 17 18:46:10 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 303E012086D; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 11:49:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id f4QbRz11qE79; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 11:49:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.chopps.org (smtp.chopps.org [54.88.81.56]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A559120052; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 11:49:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from stubbs.int.chopps.org (047-050-069-038.biz.spectrum.com [47.50.69.38]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by smtp.chopps.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 74BD660B79; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 19:49:51 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.40.2.2.4\)) From: Christian Hopps In-Reply-To: <20200217170952.rkgyjdtvepfh2lzf@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2020 14:49:50 -0500 Cc: Christian Hopps , "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" , Alexey Melnikov , "netmod@ietf.org" , Joel Jaeggli , The IESG Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <2D28757C-E1F4-45E5-A8C6-0E45B52F5BD4@chopps.org> References: <155499006434.22705.5858614581630974980.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7F3B9E7F-6AD8-4801-AE60-9F2D704DC69B@chopps.org> <2ee6b71c-bd2c-4676-9e14-cb240c6845c9@www.fastmail.com> <20200213183857.zhn2eiiztqipwsq3@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20200214143030.qfzhqdlk2gpd4tc3@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <72E551FB-DA3E-4120-BC78-F3555B7496C3@chopps.org> <20200217170952.rkgyjdtvepfh2lzf@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> To: =?utf-8?B?IlNjaMO2bnfDpGxkZXIsIErDvHJnZW4i?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.40.2.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Alexey Melnikov's Discuss on draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags-07: (with DISCUSS) X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2020 19:49:55 -0000 > On Feb 17, 2020, at 12:09 PM, Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder, J=C3=BCrgen = wrote: >=20 > IANA assigned > +tags must conform to Net-Unicode as defined in RFC 5198 and they = shall > +not need normalization. Seems good to me. Changed locally. Thanks, Chris.= From nobody Mon Feb 17 18:46:36 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E3F1120864 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 11:57:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dRkbZhMMvX2j for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 11:57:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailout.easydns.com (mailout.easydns.com [64.68.202.10]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7034A120052 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 11:57:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailout.easydns.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2827EA041E; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 19:57:27 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mailout.easydns.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (emo13-pco.easydns.vpn [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5gROdBEsNu0s; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 19:57:27 +0000 (UTC) Received: from hedeland.org (81-228-157-209-no289.tbcn.telia.com [81.228.157.209]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailout.easydns.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 074D1A03D9; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 19:57:23 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pluto.hedeland.org (pluto.hedeland.org [10.1.1.5]) by tellus.hedeland.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 01HJvLGZ023491 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 17 Feb 2020 20:57:22 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from per@hedeland.org) To: Christian Hopps , Randy Presuhn Cc: netmod@ietf.org References: <155499006434.22705.5858614581630974980.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7F3B9E7F-6AD8-4801-AE60-9F2D704DC69B@chopps.org> <2ee6b71c-bd2c-4676-9e14-cb240c6845c9@www.fastmail.com> <714842CF-A65A-40FD-A62D-6FA7E1A6801F@chopps.org> <9FECF49A-65E5-436F-973A-7538CFC974E8@chopps.org> <14832a78-ff8c-b923-09ba-207c2cf01362@alumni.stanford.edu> <3a538bc4-b93e-2027-7870-d59e8609944b@alumni.stanford.edu> From: Per Hedeland Message-ID: <10c84d6f-0af5-1f47-d8af-8e9a6eba191e@hedeland.org> Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2020 20:57:21 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.3.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Alexey Melnikov's Discuss on draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags-07: (with DISCUSS) X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2020 19:57:30 -0000 On 2020-02-17 20:47, Christian Hopps wrote: > > >> On Feb 17, 2020, at 11:51 AM, Randy Presuhn wrote: >> >> Hi - >> >> On 2/17/2020 3:15 AM, Christian Hopps wrote: >> ... >>> BTW, I did look at the "SHOULD be avoided" (occurs twice that I saw) once dealing with LFs and CRs which lucky for us is not part of a tags allowable characters. >> >> There are lots of other things that complicate life. The Yang string definition >> circumscribes some of them, but not all. >> >>> " >>> typedef tag { >>> type string { >>> length "1..max"; >>> pattern '[\S ]+'; >>> } >>> " >> >> This pattern doesn't make sense to me when I try to understand it using >> https://www.w3.org/TR/2004/REC-xmlschema-2-20041028/#charcter-classes >> It excludes "symbols", but permits, for example, paragraph separators and >> formatting characters and such delights as zero-width non-joiner. Also, in >> complementing the "all symbols" category, it seems to me it already permits >> space, so I don't see why it calls out space again. \S is not the *complement* of the "all symbols" category, it *is* the "all symbols" category - a.k.a. the complement of \s ([#x20\t\n\r]). > The intent was to have the pattern match the description immediately below it: > > "A tag value is composed of a standard prefix followed by any type 'string' value that does not include carriage return, newline or tab characters." > > Does this pattern fail in doing that? No, as far as I can see that is exactly what it does. --Per > If this requires anymore work to get right then I think we should drop the pattern, as this isn't the document to come up with a better way to deal with the apparent ugliness of UTF strings in YANG. The overriding intent is to leave it to the users to decide what they want to put in there. > > Thanks, > Chris. > >> Randy >> >> _______________________________________________ >> netmod mailing list >> netmod@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > From nobody Mon Feb 17 18:49:11 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDC9B120874 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 13:42:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.92 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.92 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6KiiFUXnNznH for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 13:42:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pj1-f66.google.com (mail-pj1-f66.google.com [209.85.216.66]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B5623120882 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 13:42:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pj1-f66.google.com with SMTP id d5so81777pjz.5 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 13:42:13 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding :content-language; bh=HOxMv8Wu1zUNZJvRPXkWpm9+a2Z0oaJF2FpvGdmZojw=; b=MOZaDny840gxlekQqBKCDcTuw8YVIky9wnm0bdsOMiAmbPz5Us1/eRZFbBOUdnBQcR HHNRGlJj6oTl0Vnm8sXbQrjOg+NIdQO+RCnKdIrbj+QyaXoG9wO2+gam4rcMVMx/KFqS fFnw5i054VoW/J/0QqLYBXbjfJ+m11cJQDCQ5hg7++baEzd5zc/zANs6YxoQhwrTcRNS sDOyWCEqlvVxiWIhHU3l65KoBHboLJpwzHWZN9P3Z9xaE6OV+buqhqgCsSNxLyfCErRf mTE0Ns9VOBi0w5joKWTwzvCcBTYhbiafQ2MWHBLKpPfnk0HwmBwubK7/eC8nXbljbtJ3 MgiA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAU/BpsfWWIRXzOh0JLo7o/Ax0VgYL5FLTXuGJjqAmqdgmdVdpuB XgHx5Jje9JUB/3PaIp/pax9aXuu44c8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzTPZq7uuZMxendooMvkjl18XhHXcc2ArvUykWUcqRkTbonOu+X/TRmOugrGtiJkJIg92rWxw== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:9890:: with SMTP id s16mr16224052plp.77.1581975732981; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 13:42:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.106] (c-73-231-235-186.hsd1.ca.comcast.net. [73.231.235.186]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i66sm1348987pfg.85.2020.02.17.13.42.12 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 17 Feb 2020 13:42:12 -0800 (PST) To: netmod@ietf.org References: <155499006434.22705.5858614581630974980.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7F3B9E7F-6AD8-4801-AE60-9F2D704DC69B@chopps.org> <2ee6b71c-bd2c-4676-9e14-cb240c6845c9@www.fastmail.com> <714842CF-A65A-40FD-A62D-6FA7E1A6801F@chopps.org> <9FECF49A-65E5-436F-973A-7538CFC974E8@chopps.org> <14832a78-ff8c-b923-09ba-207c2cf01362@alumni.stanford.edu> <3a538bc4-b93e-2027-7870-d59e8609944b@alumni.stanford.edu> From: Randy Presuhn Message-ID: Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2020 13:42:35 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US X-Antivirus: Avast (VPS 200217-0, 02/17/2020), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Alexey Melnikov's Discuss on draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags-07: (with DISCUSS) X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2020 21:42:16 -0000 Hi - On 2/17/2020 11:47 AM, Christian Hopps wrote: >> On Feb 17, 2020, at 11:51 AM, Randy Presuhn >> wrote: Hi - On 2/17/2020 3:15 AM, >> Christian Hopps wrote: ... >>> BTW, I did look at the "SHOULD be avoided" (occurs twice that I saw) >>> once dealing with LFs and CRs which lucky for us is not part of a >>> tags allowable characters. >> There are lots of other things that complicate life. The Yang string >> definition circumscribes some of them, but not all. >>> " typedef tag { type string { length "1..max"; pattern '[\S ]+'; } " >> This pattern doesn't make sense to me when I try to understand it >> using >> https://www.w3.org/TR/2004/REC-xmlschema-2-20041028/#charcter-classes >> It excludes "symbols", but permits, for example, paragraph separators >> and formatting characters and such delights as zero-width non-joiner. >> Also, in complementing the "all symbols" category, it seems to me it >> already permits space, so I don't see why it calls out space again. > The intent was to have the pattern match the description immediately > below it: "A tag value is composed of a standard prefix followed by > any type 'string' value that does not include carriage return, newline > or tab characters." Does this pattern fail in doing that? Yes, what it accomplishes does not match the stated intent. I suspect you may have intended something like '[\Z ]+' See https://www.w3.org/TR/2004/REC-xmlschema-2-20041028/#charcter-classes Randy From nobody Mon Feb 17 18:49:48 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 147C1120048 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 14:14:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2YhAGhAiqFa0 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 14:14:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.chopps.org (smtp.chopps.org [54.88.81.56]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BF5C120881 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 14:14:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from stubbs.int.chopps.org (047-050-069-038.biz.spectrum.com [47.50.69.38]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by smtp.chopps.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 707C660B5D; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 22:14:30 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.40.2.2.4\)) From: Christian Hopps In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2020 17:14:29 -0500 Cc: Christian Hopps , netmod@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <155499006434.22705.5858614581630974980.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7F3B9E7F-6AD8-4801-AE60-9F2D704DC69B@chopps.org> <2ee6b71c-bd2c-4676-9e14-cb240c6845c9@www.fastmail.com> <714842CF-A65A-40FD-A62D-6FA7E1A6801F@chopps.org> <9FECF49A-65E5-436F-973A-7538CFC974E8@chopps.org> <14832a78-ff8c-b923-09ba-207c2cf01362@alumni.stanford.edu> <3a538bc4-b93e-2027-7870-d59e8609944b@alumni.stanford.edu> To: Randy Presuhn X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.40.2.2.4) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Alexey Melnikov's Discuss on draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags-07: (with DISCUSS) X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2020 22:14:45 -0000 > On Feb 17, 2020, at 4:42 PM, Randy Presuhn = wrote: >=20 > Hi - >=20 > On 2/17/2020 11:47 AM, Christian Hopps wrote: >>> On Feb 17, 2020, at 11:51 AM, Randy Presuhn = wrote: Hi - On 2/17/2020 3:15 AM, = Christian Hopps wrote: ... >>>> BTW, I did look at the "SHOULD be avoided" (occurs twice that I = saw) once dealing with LFs and CRs which lucky for us is not part of a = tags allowable characters.=20 >>> There are lots of other things that complicate life. The Yang string = definition circumscribes some of them, but not all. >>>> " typedef tag { type string { length "1..max"; pattern '[\S ]+'; } = "=20 >>> This pattern doesn't make sense to me when I try to understand it = using = https://www.w3.org/TR/2004/REC-xmlschema-2-20041028/#charcter-classes It = excludes "symbols", but permits, for example, paragraph separators and = formatting characters and such delights as zero-width non-joiner. Also, = in complementing the "all symbols" category, it seems to me it already = permits space, so I don't see why it calls out space again.=20 >> The intent was to have the pattern match the description immediately = below it: "A tag value is composed of a standard prefix followed by any = type 'string' value that does not include carriage return, newline or = tab characters." Does this pattern fail in doing that? >=20 > Yes, what it accomplishes does not match the stated intent. I'm finding this hard to believe looking at the definition of "\S" which = is "everything but space, tab, newline and carriage return" and then = adding "space". Seems to match the definition unless we quibble over the = prefix (which I don't think we are). > I suspect you may have intended something like '[\Z ]+' > See = https://www.w3.org/TR/2004/REC-xmlschema-2-20041028/#charcter-classes I don't think that's a valid pattern. If you are talking about the property categories (where I see 'Z' = mentioned as "All separators") then there doesn't appear to be a "lower = means include, upper means exclude" relationship. Also it appears that = to refer to one of these things the syntax is actually "\P{Z}" or = "\p{Z}" not just "Z". So translating maybe that's "[\P{Z} ]"? I see = nothing that defines how "catEsc" (\p{}) vs "compEsc" (\P{}) are = different, but maybe the upper here means exclude. I'm more inclined to just ditch any pattern or restriction the more this = gets discussed. Let the user do what they want. If they want to include = crazy unicode stuff (almost certainly they dont) then I guess that's = what they want. Thanks, Chris. >=20 > Randy >=20 > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod >=20 From nobody Mon Feb 17 18:50:00 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5B5412085E for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 14:31:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ntXix7V3xD-U for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 14:31:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailout.easydns.com (mailout.easydns.com [64.68.202.10]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 28429120048 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 14:31:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailout.easydns.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FCD7C0AED; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 22:31:13 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mailout.easydns.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (emo12-pco.easydns.vpn [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oihWEmU43LO1; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 22:31:13 +0000 (UTC) Received: from hedeland.org (81-228-157-209-no289.tbcn.telia.com [81.228.157.209]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailout.easydns.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 329F1C0E6F; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 22:31:09 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pluto.hedeland.org (pluto.hedeland.org [10.1.1.5]) by tellus.hedeland.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 01HMV7Zv023809 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 17 Feb 2020 23:31:07 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from per@hedeland.org) To: Christian Hopps , Randy Presuhn Cc: netmod@ietf.org References: <155499006434.22705.5858614581630974980.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7F3B9E7F-6AD8-4801-AE60-9F2D704DC69B@chopps.org> <2ee6b71c-bd2c-4676-9e14-cb240c6845c9@www.fastmail.com> <714842CF-A65A-40FD-A62D-6FA7E1A6801F@chopps.org> <9FECF49A-65E5-436F-973A-7538CFC974E8@chopps.org> <14832a78-ff8c-b923-09ba-207c2cf01362@alumni.stanford.edu> <3a538bc4-b93e-2027-7870-d59e8609944b@alumni.stanford.edu> From: Per Hedeland Message-ID: <27ccbba7-d3d0-a9ab-c19a-9da4fa1d0210@hedeland.org> Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2020 23:31:07 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; FreeBSD amd64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.3.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Alexey Melnikov's Discuss on draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags-07: (with DISCUSS) X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2020 22:31:17 -0000 On 2020-02-17 23:14, Christian Hopps wrote: > > >> On Feb 17, 2020, at 4:42 PM, Randy Presuhn wrote: >> >> Hi - >> >> On 2/17/2020 11:47 AM, Christian Hopps wrote: >>>> On Feb 17, 2020, at 11:51 AM, Randy Presuhn wrote: Hi - On 2/17/2020 3:15 AM, Christian Hopps wrote: ... >>>>> BTW, I did look at the "SHOULD be avoided" (occurs twice that I saw) once dealing with LFs and CRs which lucky for us is not part of a tags allowable characters. >>>> There are lots of other things that complicate life. The Yang string definition circumscribes some of them, but not all. >>>>> " typedef tag { type string { length "1..max"; pattern '[\S ]+'; } " >>>> This pattern doesn't make sense to me when I try to understand it using https://www.w3.org/TR/2004/REC-xmlschema-2-20041028/#charcter-classes It excludes "symbols", but permits, for example, paragraph separators and formatting characters and such delights as zero-width non-joiner. Also, in complementing the "all symbols" category, it seems to me it already permits space, so I don't see why it calls out space again. >>> The intent was to have the pattern match the description immediately below it: "A tag value is composed of a standard prefix followed by any type 'string' value that does not include carriage return, newline or tab characters." Does this pattern fail in doing that? >> >> Yes, what it accomplishes does not match the stated intent. > > I'm finding this hard to believe looking at the definition of "\S" which is "everything but space, tab, newline and carriage return" and then adding "space". Seems to match the definition unless we quibble over the prefix (which I don't think we are). +1 >> I suspect you may have intended something like '[\Z ]+' >> See https://www.w3.org/TR/2004/REC-xmlschema-2-20041028/#charcter-classes > > I don't think that's a valid pattern. +1 > If you are talking about the property categories (where I see 'Z' mentioned as "All separators") then there doesn't appear to be a "lower means include, upper means exclude" relationship. Also it appears that to refer to one of these things the syntax is actually "\P{Z}" or "\p{Z}" not just "Z". So translating maybe that's "[\P{Z} ]"? I see nothing that defines how "catEsc" (\p{}) vs "compEsc" (\P{}) are different, but maybe the upper here means exclude. The description is right above the definitions: The set containing all characters that have property X, can be identified with a category escape \p{X}. The complement of this set is specified with the category escape \P{X}. ([\P{X}] = [^\p{X}]) So yes, \P{Z} would be the complement of "All Separators", while your original \S is the complement of \s ([#x20\t\n\r]). I.e. \P{Z} would exclude "more separators", but is hardly worth the trouble I think - and it is *not* the "stated intent". > I'm more inclined to just ditch any pattern or restriction the more this gets discussed. Let the user do what they want. If they want to include crazy unicode stuff (almost certainly they dont) then I guess that's what they want. FWIW, as I already wrote, I think your original pattern is fine (and I think Randy needs to have a closer look at the section he references). --Per > Thanks, > Chris. > >> >> Randy >> >> _______________________________________________ >> netmod mailing list >> netmod@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod >> > > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > From nobody Mon Feb 17 18:50:06 2020 Return-Path: <01000170554bb6b1-62072f16-2ead-4c4c-b39f-99731a334722-000000@amazonses.watsen.net> X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97B291200F5 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 14:36:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=amazonses.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 55dPXHx8V4hu for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 14:36:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from a48-90.smtp-out.amazonses.com (a48-90.smtp-out.amazonses.com [54.240.48.90]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ABCA7120058 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 14:36:31 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/simple; s=6gbrjpgwjskckoa6a5zn6fwqkn67xbtw; d=amazonses.com; t=1581978990; h=From:Message-Id:Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References:Feedback-ID; bh=xYjS0BqbXt6lO+/pGMVfqKOISxJDPvviUm5zxbzsdxU=; b=kL7tTyVCOufObPvGYrJx2XK3YizpFrNW7BjNso+fdHO9ddEUGM7Fr9XY3lAVJTEx QR72agHaMbwL78aM1I5cYdzGuRCuA9tDV9vg/1lvs+5F55dOz5jB/6sYxt5I+uUFJEn RgHyLTy+wRhuoXf38blIfe0rlPEuO4hph+LWc3pM= From: Kent Watsen Message-ID: <01000170554bb6b1-62072f16-2ead-4c4c-b39f-99731a334722-000000@email.amazonses.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_8DD51628-6EF3-4DAD-AB40-C2EECC226121" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2020 22:36:30 +0000 In-Reply-To: <27ccbba7-d3d0-a9ab-c19a-9da4fa1d0210@hedeland.org> Cc: Christian Hopps , Randy Presuhn , "netmod@ietf.org" To: Per Hedeland References: <155499006434.22705.5858614581630974980.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7F3B9E7F-6AD8-4801-AE60-9F2D704DC69B@chopps.org> <2ee6b71c-bd2c-4676-9e14-cb240c6845c9@www.fastmail.com> <714842CF-A65A-40FD-A62D-6FA7E1A6801F@chopps.org> <9FECF49A-65E5-436F-973A-7538CFC974E8@chopps.org> <14832a78-ff8c-b923-09ba-207c2cf01362@alumni.stanford.edu> <3a538bc4-b93e-2027-7870-d59e8609944b@alumni.stanford.edu> <27ccbba7-d3d0-a9ab-c19a-9da4fa1d0210@hedeland.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-SES-Outgoing: 2020.02.17-54.240.48.90 Feedback-ID: 1.us-east-1.DKmIRZFhhsBhtmFMNikgwZUWVrODEw9qVcPhqJEI2DA=:AmazonSES Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Alexey Melnikov's Discuss on draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags-07: (with DISCUSS) X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2020 22:36:35 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_8DD51628-6EF3-4DAD-AB40-C2EECC226121 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii FWIUW, I created a YANG-Next issue to track the needed long-term update = to RFC 7950: https://github.com/netmod-wg/yang-next/issues/102 = Kent > On Feb 17, 2020, at 5:31 PM, Per Hedeland wrote: >=20 > On 2020-02-17 23:14, Christian Hopps wrote: > > > > > >> On Feb 17, 2020, at 4:42 PM, Randy Presuhn = wrote: > >> > >> Hi - > >> > >> On 2/17/2020 11:47 AM, Christian Hopps wrote: > >>>> On Feb 17, 2020, at 11:51 AM, Randy Presuhn = wrote: Hi - On 2/17/2020 3:15 AM, = Christian Hopps wrote: ... > >>>>> BTW, I did look at the "SHOULD be avoided" (occurs twice that I = saw) once dealing with LFs and CRs which lucky for us is not part of a = tags allowable characters. > >>>> There are lots of other things that complicate life. The Yang = string definition circumscribes some of them, but not all. > >>>>> " typedef tag { type string { length "1..max"; pattern '[\S ]+'; = } " > >>>> This pattern doesn't make sense to me when I try to understand it = using = https://www.w3.org/TR/2004/REC-xmlschema-2-20041028/#charcter-classes It = excludes "symbols", but permits, for example, paragraph separators and = formatting characters and such delights as zero-width non-joiner. Also, = in complementing the "all symbols" category, it seems to me it already = permits space, so I don't see why it calls out space again. > >>> The intent was to have the pattern match the description = immediately below it: "A tag value is composed of a standard prefix = followed by any type 'string' value that does not include carriage = return, newline or tab characters." Does this pattern fail in doing = that? > >> > >> Yes, what it accomplishes does not match the stated intent. > > > > I'm finding this hard to believe looking at the definition of "\S" = which is "everything but space, tab, newline and carriage return" and = then adding "space". Seems to match the definition unless we quibble = over the prefix (which I don't think we are). >=20 > +1 >=20 > >> I suspect you may have intended something like '[\Z ]+' > >> See = https://www.w3.org/TR/2004/REC-xmlschema-2-20041028/#charcter-classes > > > > I don't think that's a valid pattern. >=20 > +1 >=20 > > If you are talking about the property categories (where I see 'Z' = mentioned as "All separators") then there doesn't appear to be a "lower = means include, upper means exclude" relationship. Also it appears that = to refer to one of these things the syntax is actually "\P{Z}" or = "\p{Z}" not just "Z". So translating maybe that's "[\P{Z} ]"? I see = nothing that defines how "catEsc" (\p{}) vs "compEsc" (\P{}) are = different, but maybe the upper here means exclude. >=20 > The description is right above the definitions: >=20 > The set containing all characters that have property X, can be > identified with a category escape \p{X}. The complement of this set > is specified with the category escape \P{X}. ([\P{X}] =3D [^\p{X}]) >=20 > So yes, \P{Z} would be the complement of "All Separators", while your > original \S is the complement of \s ([#x20\t\n\r]). I.e. \P{Z} would > exclude "more separators", but is hardly worth the trouble I think - > and it is *not* the "stated intent". >=20 > > I'm more inclined to just ditch any pattern or restriction the more = this gets discussed. Let the user do what they want. If they want to = include crazy unicode stuff (almost certainly they dont) then I guess = that's what they want. >=20 > FWIW, as I already wrote, I think your original pattern is fine (and I > think Randy needs to have a closer look at the section he references). >=20 > --Per >=20 > > Thanks, > > Chris. > > > >> > >> Randy > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> netmod mailing list > >> netmod@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > netmod mailing list > > netmod@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > > >=20 > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod --Apple-Mail=_8DD51628-6EF3-4DAD-AB40-C2EECC226121 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii FWIUW, I created a YANG-Next issue to track the needed = long-term update to RFC 7950:

https://github.com/netmod-wg/yang-next/issues/102

Kent


On Feb 17, 2020, at 5:31 PM, Per Hedeland = <per@hedeland.org> wrote:

On = 2020-02-17 23:14, Christian Hopps wrote:
>
>
>> On Feb 17, 2020, at 4:42 PM, = Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@alumni.stanford.edu> wrote:
>>
>> Hi -
>>
>> On 2/17/2020 11:47 AM, Christian Hopps wrote:
>>>> On Feb 17, 2020, at 11:51 AM, Randy Presuhn = <randy_presuhn@alumni.stanford.edu> wrote: Hi - On = 2/17/2020 3:15 AM, Christian Hopps wrote: ...
>>>>> BTW, I did look at the "SHOULD be = avoided" (occurs twice that I saw) once dealing with LFs and CRs which = lucky for us is not part of a tags allowable characters.
>>>> There are lots of other things that = complicate life. The Yang string definition circumscribes some of them, = but not all.
>>>>> " typedef tag { type = string { length "1..max"; pattern '[\S ]+'; } "
>>>> This pattern doesn't make sense to me when I = try to understand it using https://www.w3.org/TR/2004/REC-xmlschema-2-20041028/#charcter-c= lasses It excludes "symbols", but permits, for example, paragraph = separators and formatting characters and such delights as zero-width = non-joiner. Also, in complementing the "all symbols" category, it seems = to me it already permits space, so I don't see why it calls out space = again.
>>> The intent was to have the pattern = match the description immediately below it: "A tag value is composed of = a standard prefix followed by any type 'string' value that does not = include carriage return, newline or tab characters." Does this pattern = fail in doing that?
>>
>> Yes, = what it accomplishes does not match the stated intent.
>
> I'm finding this hard to believe = looking at the definition of "\S" which is "everything but space, tab, = newline and carriage return" and then adding "space". Seems to match the = definition unless we quibble over the prefix (which I don't think we = are).

+1

>> I suspect you may have intended something like '[\Z = ]+'
>> See https://www.w3.org/TR/2004/REC-xmlschema-2-20041028/#charcter-c= lasses
>
> I don't think that's a = valid pattern.

+1

> If you are talking about the property categories (where = I see 'Z' mentioned as "All separators") then there doesn't appear to be = a "lower means include, upper means exclude" relationship. Also it = appears that to refer to one of these things the syntax is actually = "\P{Z}" or "\p{Z}" not just "Z". So translating maybe that's "[\P{Z} ]"? = I see nothing that defines how "catEsc" (\p{}) vs "compEsc" (\P{}) are = different, but maybe the upper here means exclude.

The description is right above the definitions:

 The set containing all characters that = have property X, can be
 identified with a category = escape \p{X}. The complement of this set
 is = specified with the category escape \P{X}. ([\P{X}] =3D [^\p{X}])

So yes, \P{Z} would be the complement of "All = Separators", while your
original \S is the complement of = \s ([#x20\t\n\r]). I.e. \P{Z} would
exclude "more = separators", but is hardly worth the trouble I think -
and = it is *not* the "stated intent".

> I'm = more inclined to just ditch any pattern or restriction the more this = gets discussed. Let the user do what they want. If they want to include = crazy unicode stuff (almost certainly they dont) then I guess that's = what they want.

FWIW, as I already wrote, I = think your original pattern is fine (and I
think Randy = needs to have a closer look at the section he references).

--Per

> = Thanks,
> Chris.
>
>>
>> Randy
>>>> _______________________________________________
>> netmod mailing list
>> netmod@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
>>
>
> = _______________________________________________
> = netmod mailing list
> netmod@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
>

_______________________________________________
netmod mailing list
netmod@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod

= --Apple-Mail=_8DD51628-6EF3-4DAD-AB40-C2EECC226121-- From nobody Mon Feb 17 18:50:20 2020 Return-Path: <0100017055513529-e38125d5-da1d-4ff6-b982-b1bf318e6c1f-000000@amazonses.watsen.net> X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 368E8120058 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 14:42:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=amazonses.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0Kd6BLqnkjG2 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 14:42:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from a8-83.smtp-out.amazonses.com (a8-83.smtp-out.amazonses.com [54.240.8.83]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BE31B120048 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 14:42:31 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/simple; s=6gbrjpgwjskckoa6a5zn6fwqkn67xbtw; d=amazonses.com; t=1581979350; h=From:Message-Id:Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:Cc:To:References:Feedback-ID; bh=464ugy+VrUbu7v3pcl2nyjcywuWUpDuNdEvOn8wKuA8=; b=PFQ4we4Zbbxf2zcYGVYHk07PUyyL3ypCKXVCYht4bHsnX/NwqT1dggt8ogjjoHwh R/C1nnOZ3XqpPnJ/7xeRACR9NuqGr6xTZKM/P4JJjijOoLso6SPVN6Rs3oiXTGqPFMr 2p6CSA+CJHv7BJ8oHhxWg1ZhvmwnjPmEM6J5ySTM= From: Kent Watsen Message-ID: <0100017055513529-e38125d5-da1d-4ff6-b982-b1bf318e6c1f-000000@email.amazonses.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_516799A5-78BF-40E1-A0AA-76F7D90FCE70" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2020 22:42:30 +0000 In-Reply-To: Cc: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" , "netmod@ietf.org" To: tom petch References: <010001703f060085-7c6a3183-7f9f-4706-9be3-f64d9ea40fca-000000@email.amazonses.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-SES-Outgoing: 2020.02.17-54.240.8.83 Feedback-ID: 1.us-east-1.DKmIRZFhhsBhtmFMNikgwZUWVrODEw9qVcPhqJEI2DA=:AmazonSES Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Implicit case statementa X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2020 22:42:34 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_516799A5-78BF-40E1-A0AA-76F7D90FCE70 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 A YANG-Next issue has been created to track a fix for this issue: https://github.com/netmod-wg/yang-next/issues/103 = Kent > On Feb 14, 2020, at 6:48 AM, tom petch wrote: >=20 > _____________________________________ > From: netmod on behalf of Rob Wilton = (rwilton) > Sent: 14 February 2020 10:14 > To: Kent Watsen; netmod@ietf.org > My interpretation matches the one that Martin gives in = https://github.com/mbj4668/pyang/issues/559 >=20 > >=20 > I was looking at=20 > draft-boydseda- ipfix-psamp-bulk-data-yang-model > and see nine choice statements of which six have no case, two have a = single case and one has multiple case. The single case have a note to = the effect that they may be augmented, the others have no note. The no = case do have multiple container or leaf statements. It does make me = curious. >=20 > Tom Petch >=20 >=20 > I.e. the short hand notation =E2=80=A6 >=20 > choice test { > container foo { > if-feature disabled-feature; > ... > } > } >=20 > is equivalent to: >=20 > choice test { > case foo { > container foo { > if-feature disabled-feature; > ... > } > } > } >=20 > Filing an issue in YANG.Next to clarify, or further discuss, this = seems helpful to me. >=20 > Thanks, > Rob >=20 >=20 > From: netmod On Behalf Of Kent Watsen > Sent: 13 February 2020 14:49 > To: netmod@ietf.org > Subject: [netmod] Implicit case statementa >=20 >=20 > RFC 7950 says: >=20 > As a shorthand, the "case" statement can be omitted if the branch >=20 > contains a single "anydata", "anyxml", "choice", "container", = "leaf", >=20 > "list", or "leaf-list" statement. In this case, the case node still >=20 > exists in the schema tree, and its identifier is the same as the >=20 > identifier of the child node. >=20 > This seems clear, albeit incomplete, as inconsistencies [1] exist = amongst `pyang`and `yanglint` (I did not test with `yangson`) in how the = =E2=80=9Cif-feature=E2=80=9D statement is handled, though I imagine = other statements (e.g., =E2=80=9Cwhen=E2=80=9D) may also fall into this = discussion as well. >=20 > Ultimately, the question is what Errata and/or YANG-next issue should = be filed. I=E2=80=99m okay either way, so long as it=E2=80=99s clear = and can be implemented consistently across tooling. >=20 > In the meanwhile, I recommend module designers avoid using the = shorthand notation, as there are no known issues with the =E2=80=9Clonghan= d=E2=80=9D notation. >=20 > [1] https://github.com/mbj4668/pyang/issues/559 >=20 > Kent // contributor >=20 --Apple-Mail=_516799A5-78BF-40E1-A0AA-76F7D90FCE70 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 A = YANG-Next issue has been created to track a fix for this issue:

https://github.com/netmod-wg/yang-next/issues/103

Kent


On Feb 14, 2020, at 6:48 AM, tom petch <ietfc@btconnect.com>= wrote:

_____________________________________
From: = netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Rob Wilton = (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com>
Sent: 14 February = 2020 10:14
To: Kent Watsen; netmod@ietf.org
My interpretation matches the one that Martin gives in https://github.com/mbj4668/pyang/issues/559

<tp>

I was = looking at
draft-boydseda- = ipfix-psamp-bulk-data-yang-model
and see nine choice = statements of which six have no case, two have a single case and one has = multiple case.  The single case have a note to the effect that they = may be augmented, the others have no note.  The no case do have = multiple container or leaf statements.  It does make me curious.

Tom Petch


I.e. the short hand notation =E2=80=A6

   choice test {
=      container foo {
=        if-feature = disabled-feature;
=          ...
=      }
   }

is equivalent to:

=    choice test {
=      case foo {
=        container foo {
=          if-feature = disabled-feature;
=            ...
       }
=      }
   }

Filing an issue in YANG.Next to clarify, or = further discuss, this seems helpful to me.

Thanks,
Rob


From: netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Kent Watsen
Sent: 13 February 2020 14:49
To: netmod@ietf.org
Subject: [netmod] Implicit case statementa


RFC 7950 says:

=   As a shorthand, the "case" statement can be omitted if the = branch

  contains a single = "anydata", "anyxml", "choice", "container", "leaf",

  "list", or "leaf-list" statement.  In this = case, the case node still

=   exists in the schema tree, and its identifier is the same as = the

  identifier of the child = node.

This seems clear, albeit incomplete, = as inconsistencies [1] exist amongst `pyang`and `yanglint` (I did not = test with `yangson`) in how the =E2=80=9Cif-feature=E2=80=9D statement = is handled, though I imagine other statements (e.g., =E2=80=9Cwhen=E2=80=9D= ) may also fall into this discussion as well.

Ultimately, the question is what Errata and/or YANG-next = issue should be filed.   I=E2=80=99m okay either way, so long = as it=E2=80=99s clear and can be implemented consistently across = tooling.

In the meanwhile, I recommend = module designers avoid using the shorthand notation, as there are no = known issues with the =E2=80=9Clonghand=E2=80=9D notation.

[1] https://github.com/mbj4668/pyang/issues/559

Kent // contributor


= --Apple-Mail=_516799A5-78BF-40E1-A0AA-76F7D90FCE70-- From nobody Mon Feb 17 18:54:07 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26BDC120866 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 16:31:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.92 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.92 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id T3IS562q05_L for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 16:31:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pf1-f177.google.com (mail-pf1-f177.google.com [209.85.210.177]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C9F4712002E for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 16:31:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pf1-f177.google.com with SMTP id 185so9738410pfv.3 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 16:31:11 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding :content-language; bh=sYc9u1vxW8jHNYWDfooRvHFP3q1prEG1cvefx13p9CQ=; b=emkB1dd+GvPnQFoh3Pi9ws1q01mkPMsUjlYq7FKGqasnPKZqC8CTbsTQ6MKxDJ35gV 0KccEEwtE/Oo9bXsG3nsr1fvf5qGtBa2MN8WSQl7yqDom6g0l7UoLRP6+Ln5IbubX0V/ sq53UaTuY0B+81AeqFOsQj2rbgYQibvt57mxsItMU6Ho6AfMsSQZyTU+MVXip2F0QT4T JFjSflxslvmwDbs8U2GYnxHQ3TWAhToLb8XReZ8d2LoloRoXKrEcfvFcFwiVR4eOXTRt 7SNqNznSgAJD18cGPhYE+S3SroD3OXTtcdPKr977YPIA0FnYJvUssNKACBa1o6xcOavj l5QQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXUnLFkz8NPlWh249KyMfz0llK0D4x7CaJU63YHBOwbvRCCVSPG so9MEqK/V8Z52MzshMvphHiDbhRwziY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqypCRaE0X8JvJBcZ+QU1Nz87z3jeHS3L5D60IPAeK2Fx+MsWu+ELBB9WNdzPWDHgFXA4Wb84A== X-Received: by 2002:a62:fc11:: with SMTP id e17mr2059019pfh.207.1581985870873; Mon, 17 Feb 2020 16:31:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.106] (c-73-231-235-186.hsd1.ca.comcast.net. [73.231.235.186]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p23sm2031003pgn.92.2020.02.17.16.31.09 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 17 Feb 2020 16:31:10 -0800 (PST) To: netmod@ietf.org References: <155499006434.22705.5858614581630974980.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7F3B9E7F-6AD8-4801-AE60-9F2D704DC69B@chopps.org> <2ee6b71c-bd2c-4676-9e14-cb240c6845c9@www.fastmail.com> <714842CF-A65A-40FD-A62D-6FA7E1A6801F@chopps.org> <9FECF49A-65E5-436F-973A-7538CFC974E8@chopps.org> <14832a78-ff8c-b923-09ba-207c2cf01362@alumni.stanford.edu> <3a538bc4-b93e-2027-7870-d59e8609944b@alumni.stanford.edu> From: Randy Presuhn Message-ID: <58e7afc1-9cc9-7f34-7692-3b58387d5029@alumni.stanford.edu> Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2020 16:31:33 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-Antivirus: Avast (VPS 200217-0, 02/17/2020), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Alexey Melnikov's Discuss on draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags-07: (with DISCUSS) X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2020 00:31:13 -0000 Hi - On 2/17/2020 2:14 PM, Christian Hopps wrote: ... > If you are talking about the property categories (where I see 'Z' > mentioned as "All separators") then there doesn't appear to be a > "lower means include, upper means exclude" relationship. Also it > appears that to refer to one of these things the syntax is actually > "\P{Z}" or "\p{Z}" not just "Z". So translating maybe that's "[\P{Z} > ]"? I see nothing that defines how "catEsc" (\p{}) vs "compEsc" (\P{}) > are different, but maybe the upper here means exclude. My error.  You're right that "[\P{Z} ]" is what the grammar would require to eliminate all the space-like things while still allowing #x20 space. The problem with "\S" is that the only kind of space it eliminates is #x20, (which you then add back in in the regular expression) while Unicode has a whole menagerie of other space-like creatures one might well want to exclude from tags while still permitting #x20, as well as lots of other stuff that is probably a bad idea to permit in tags.  That said... > I'm more inclined to just ditch any pattern or restriction the more > this gets discussed. Let the user do what they want. If they want to > include crazy unicode stuff (almost certainly they dont) then I guess > that's what they want. Yeah, doing so is almost a design pattern in Yang:  try to constrain things with regular expressions, find out the expression is either too limiting or allows too many invalid strings, then give up.  :-)  No judgement here - it is what it is, and "done" has to take precedence over "perfect." 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Tue, 18 Feb 2020 11:12:47 +0000 From: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" To: Per Hedeland , Christian Hopps , Randy Presuhn CC: "netmod@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [netmod] Alexey Melnikov's Discuss on draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags-07: (with DISCUSS) Thread-Index: AQHV4m8DGI058sprvkKdYtaQYpu786gaftpggAAIeQCAAAFigIAABDQAgABwz4CABESmAIAAXa6AgAAxS4CAACAfgIAACOqAgAAEpoCAANIMUA== Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2020 11:12:47 +0000 Message-ID: References: <155499006434.22705.5858614581630974980.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7F3B9E7F-6AD8-4801-AE60-9F2D704DC69B@chopps.org> <2ee6b71c-bd2c-4676-9e14-cb240c6845c9@www.fastmail.com> <714842CF-A65A-40FD-A62D-6FA7E1A6801F@chopps.org> <9FECF49A-65E5-436F-973A-7538CFC974E8@chopps.org> <14832a78-ff8c-b923-09ba-207c2cf01362@alumni.stanford.edu> <3a538bc4-b93e-2027-7870-d59e8609944b@alumni.stanford.edu> <27ccbba7-d3d0-a9ab-c19a-9da4fa1d0210@hedeland.org> In-Reply-To: <27ccbba7-d3d0-a9ab-c19a-9da4fa1d0210@hedeland.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=rwilton@cisco.com; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: f2715538-274a-4a25-3216-08d7b4637c51 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 18 Feb 2020 11:12:47.4833 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: b09SrS2dFtXCQj/ABcwPTxonxCswHInkYkcK4u+7YQziFcUboL4Ff5AEW9ZIstGLX8gTy+4uuvpZg/ikBdfvFw== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MN2PR11MB4399 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.13, xch-rcd-003.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-6.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Alexey Melnikov's Discuss on draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags-07: (with DISCUSS) X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2020 11:12:54 -0000 I agree with Per. I think that the original pattern (with the \S) is fine and captures the in= tent clearly and simply. I'm also not convinced of how many implementations would properly honour th= e XML regex property categories, e.g., if the pattern statement has been tr= anslated to another regex engine. Thanks, Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: netmod On Behalf Of Per Hedeland > Sent: 17 February 2020 22:31 > To: Christian Hopps ; Randy Presuhn > > Cc: netmod@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [netmod] Alexey Melnikov's Discuss on draft-ietf-netmod- > module-tags-07: (with DISCUSS) >=20 > On 2020-02-17 23:14, Christian Hopps wrote: > > > > > >> On Feb 17, 2020, at 4:42 PM, Randy Presuhn > wrote: > >> > >> Hi - > >> > >> On 2/17/2020 11:47 AM, Christian Hopps wrote: > >>>> On Feb 17, 2020, at 11:51 AM, Randy Presuhn > wrote: Hi - On 2/17/2020 3:15 AM, > Christian Hopps wrote: ... > >>>>> BTW, I did look at the "SHOULD be avoided" (occurs twice that I > saw) once dealing with LFs and CRs which lucky for us is not part of a > tags allowable characters. > >>>> There are lots of other things that complicate life. The Yang strin= g > definition circumscribes some of them, but not all. > >>>>> " typedef tag { type string { length "1..max"; pattern '[\S ]+'; } > " > >>>> This pattern doesn't make sense to me when I try to understand it > using https://www.w3.org/TR/2004/REC-xmlschema-2-20041028/#charcter- > classes It excludes "symbols", but permits, for example, paragraph > separators and formatting characters and such delights as zero-width non- > joiner. Also, in complementing the "all symbols" category, it seems to me > it already permits space, so I don't see why it calls out space again. > >>> The intent was to have the pattern match the description immediately > below it: "A tag value is composed of a standard prefix followed by any > type 'string' value that does not include carriage return, newline or tab > characters." Does this pattern fail in doing that? > >> > >> Yes, what it accomplishes does not match the stated intent. > > > > I'm finding this hard to believe looking at the definition of "\S" > which is "everything but space, tab, newline and carriage return" and the= n > adding "space". Seems to match the definition unless we quibble over the > prefix (which I don't think we are). >=20 > +1 >=20 > >> I suspect you may have intended something like '[\Z ]+' > >> See https://www.w3.org/TR/2004/REC-xmlschema-2-20041028/#charcter- > classes > > > > I don't think that's a valid pattern. >=20 > +1 >=20 > > If you are talking about the property categories (where I see 'Z' > mentioned as "All separators") then there doesn't appear to be a "lower > means include, upper means exclude" relationship. Also it appears that to > refer to one of these things the syntax is actually "\P{Z}" or "\p{Z}" no= t > just "Z". So translating maybe that's "[\P{Z} ]"? I see nothing that > defines how "catEsc" (\p{}) vs "compEsc" > (\P{}) are different, but maybe the upper here means exclude. >=20 > The description is right above the definitions: >=20 > The set containing all characters that have property X, can be > identified with a category escape \p{X}. The complement of this set > is specified with the category escape \P{X}. ([\P{X}] =3D [^\p{X}]) >=20 > So yes, \P{Z} would be the complement of "All Separators", while your > original \S is the complement of \s ([#x20\t\n\r]). I.e. \P{Z} would > exclude "more separators", but is hardly worth the trouble I think - and > it is *not* the "stated intent". >=20 > > I'm more inclined to just ditch any pattern or restriction the more > this gets discussed. Let the user do what they want. If they want to > include crazy unicode stuff (almost certainly they dont) then I guess > that's what they want. >=20 > FWIW, as I already wrote, I think your original pattern is fine (and I > think Randy needs to have a closer look at the section he references). >=20 > --Per >=20 > > Thanks, > > Chris. > > > >> > >> Randy > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> netmod mailing list > >> netmod@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > netmod mailing list > > netmod@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > > >=20 > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod From nobody Tue Feb 18 03:20:04 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72605120639 for ; 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Tue, 18 Feb 2020 11:19:57 +0000 Received: from localhost (212.201.44.247) by AM0PR06CA0107.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:208:fa::48) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2729.25 via Frontend Transport; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 11:19:57 +0000 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sch=F6nw=E4lder=2C_J=FCrgen?= To: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" CC: "netmod@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [netmod] Alexey Melnikov's Discuss on draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags-07: (with DISCUSS) Thread-Index: AQHV5kxZaJjh2ww68Uallfbdbai0wKggzhkA Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2020 11:19:57 +0000 Message-ID: <20200218111956.bmqx5i6fyjrx7qn4@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> References: <9FECF49A-65E5-436F-973A-7538CFC974E8@chopps.org> <14832a78-ff8c-b923-09ba-207c2cf01362@alumni.stanford.edu> <3a538bc4-b93e-2027-7870-d59e8609944b@alumni.stanford.edu> <27ccbba7-d3d0-a9ab-c19a-9da4fa1d0210@hedeland.org> In-Reply-To: Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sch=F6nw=E4lder=2C_J=FCrgen?= Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-clientproxiedby: AM0PR06CA0107.eurprd06.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:208:fa::48) To DB6P190MB0312.EURP190.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:6:34::31) authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de; 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x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata: o/CJNBfzuNmuazMVTBD5p72U6UrQlKDHLJ0FVZoKvkQ3eALoGlQjujaabQF4tN2pv1/yJiGYymh1xoRIEflk7xELF5EZNyuyfT49uM7a4rgTRYuoQN09OuRdkXMfcZPrqH/5qKqwl9Nf4OLnRKElpQ== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: jacobs-university.de X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 13ce7b32-f0b6-4252-b328-08d7b4647c73 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 18 Feb 2020 11:19:57.5640 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: f78e973e-5c0b-4ab8-bbd7-9887c95a8ebd X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: qf0lz67SHrd7alFDbd8KB15SU1At8Esks3nbMaHBthRqd7gTpY39TktZw4sUUi0vpTAYHE1nRMi63qM/fd+tsNZw5fDkIa2hwFwYrb4sCmI= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB6P190MB0486 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Alexey Melnikov's Discuss on draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags-07: (with DISCUSS) X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2020 11:20:03 -0000 On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 11:12:47AM +0000, Rob Wilton (rwilton) wrote: >=20 > I'm also not convinced of how many implementations would properly honour = the XML regex property categories, e.g., if the pattern statement has been = translated to another regex engine. > That's a weird argument. If there is agreement on a restriction and we can express that restriction in a pattern, we should IMHO do so. Note the order: It is backwards if there is first a pattern and as a consequence we agree on that specific restriction. Ideally, the agreed upon restriction is stated in the description and if possible also expressed as a pattern. This way it does not matter how implementations enforce the restriction and it is clear to everyone what the pattern is trying to achieve. /js --=20 Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Tue Feb 18 08:44:23 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2439120099 for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 08:44:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QcmMNZxJXhOl for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 08:44:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from nagasaki.bogus.com (nagasaki.bogus.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 68831120077 for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 08:44:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from jmbp.local ([IPv6:2601:647:4200:5811:935:433b:9073:f625]) (authenticated bits=0) by nagasaki.bogus.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 01IGiIU0016925 for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 16:44:18 GMT (envelope-from joelja@bogus.com) X-Authentication-Warning: nagasaki.bogus.com: Host [IPv6:2601:647:4200:5811:935:433b:9073:f625] claimed to be jmbp.local To: netmod@ietf.org From: Joel Jaeggli X-Pep-Version: 2.0 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2020 08:44:18 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------0D228415F6576768B1BAD311" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: [netmod] Adoption poll for draft-wwx-netmod-event-yang X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2020 16:44:22 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------0D228415F6576768B1BAD311 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------A40EB8B8B8C93072833EE10E" --------------A40EB8B8B8C93072833EE10E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This email begins a 2 week working group adoption poll for: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wwx-netmod-event-yang-06 Please voice your support or objections before the poll completes on March 3rd. Thanks joel --------------A40EB8B8B8C93072833EE10E Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This email begins a 2 week working group adoption poll for:

Pleas= e voice your support or objections before the poll completes on March 3rd.

Thanks
joel
--------------A40EB8B8B8C93072833EE10E-- --------------0D228415F6576768B1BAD311 Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="pEpkey.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="pEpkey.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- mQENBF0zjHcBCAC/VccTV8/Owi3MQVGop8umVKn4stHzV/F4/5+ixMnzkhhRsI1L 305ew6Uh+ypYkKn28X7B5+3zNIRxK+JKkV9QKufSBPFcTd41xoknMtCMSr5QZIln A61tLz2oCIdB6eiTrzI60pHwd0idCOmAEqUP8JLfaQZK9JNQ416Kb/8CHiDhkG0N 17l0EYT+uVVBlUbSAgbaw6gO2csUPeASB6oiFd9AdCBVMQsQ4Q57Giz1oFam/FJw igtZ4TG+fW8dM1k8ngyonN8RzdTwnkkPLCNrttdOfjrv9llianW9Jz48l52ViT39 S82tYLkDuNbQ0AJKK8lniYz0yvs47k5WHF/VABEBAAG0H0pvZWwgSmFlZ2dsaSA8 am9lbGphQGJvZ3VzLmNvbT6JAVQEEwEIAD4WIQTSCLPd1dloH5f5hauFzc47B3GZ 7AUCXTOMdwIbAwUJAeEzgAULCQgHAgYVCgkICwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRCFzc47 B3GZ7HcvCAChCaaK8xnP5z7bxz5y5tX15fpEzjjhz0fHe32gJ2uZblWzhX6ch/6z 2k51Pcnf0FJj788Nu+WI0kF/U81jByvbz5WPlEBm7E/D0HLxsIWkbt0AlNjiDIP8 WuTZ0Lom/m7YFzwLTN7g+MI5Jqui/LEKcKAqoo5ioGsDGOIa9Fq7/WWkx7fIYvTR pqSpPKdZs3kz1z9QvncyM3IrY7fOMD4hShCwcA2HU+rl61g6aIZmpG7LXT0ZlHfY UMk8zxL/8/S89p7ZPxhxrjDeYMPxlexmWY9KZS6Ek6ugO2udHeEDagpUpUrmqEgg tK8qSsmclqqWXWps5Bl8JLueamnwV+77uQENBF0zjHcBCADWGXodjIueeHPimoj7 55ExPKJvP8ECZProTxJ86N5xmLP9Fbs70FKSxRwv4at1fWgvEwOU9w0ibq7CT+wo neboxFsWh6GEHlskSlgr5MpqCJXSpcoHABR7aBaBecFAD2YS3Zaf7GUCHcl51Bb8 7Xuj59tS8S5RCMtQ5spAL1unLt/rIBbEaiJR24/vJQLuZAJtAeUQgy0s2daBFKfL j/7AIVGTpbFSpM3iiOOjFnvQsWapzxheLNS57OY7DaQWDsd/E8zFHcTJLpotST4r AkWnXvrCxOkFKX+WJ1TKiy8I0enIa1U8aB+9YswHy4fE3GbGqeMDjSxCziNLKKe+ MlZ1ABEBAAGJATwEGAEIACYWIQTSCLPd1dloH5f5hauFzc47B3GZ7AUCXTOMdwIb DAUJAeEzgAAKCRCFzc47B3GZ7G9dB/9mvCNEjuJVv9IdcziUFrWX8r0rZPRTw+iH 1EKxpE5RWU+LTf3dNJWz/s8pItLkevjIz4tLOdoAa8awj4xqoLkoVFr/LTU7ugaF ZksanT5/E5ZsDm/ngsdUAgOwZvalOU6cdj7Utzk1xWbGfPLnx86a8VzEaCMtzNX6 roW3zJPBcxnDekuvuHnEiAvUBDGhf2GcVafVRuyM0MOlT7jQ0B8N6mcmojJFSJvO 4jFLiT2/9vPgl4i41S3P8jbjEBQ24U26BDBuB3yNOvoaPDcRUsC1sKHHZCr1cwan 0E4HFJ5kouvANneQTsH+QtWnGZ9mtDrmR+qZ4p7+4dXve+HsG64S =3DmE9q -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- --------------0D228415F6576768B1BAD311-- From nobody Tue Feb 18 08:45:59 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3998120020; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 08:45:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PtzIeTqm_uw1; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 08:45:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from nagasaki.bogus.com (nagasaki.bogus.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3973C120077; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 08:45:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from jmbp.local ([IPv6:2601:647:4200:5811:935:433b:9073:f625]) (authenticated bits=0) by nagasaki.bogus.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 01IGjtAG016976; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 16:45:55 GMT (envelope-from joelja@bogus.com) X-Authentication-Warning: nagasaki.bogus.com: Host [IPv6:2601:647:4200:5811:935:433b:9073:f625] claimed to be jmbp.local To: draft-wwx-netmod-event-yang@ietf.org, netmod@ietf.org From: Joel Jaeggli X-Pep-Version: 2.0 Message-ID: <5a393145-f01b-e1b8-5f3b-5dca1210893e@bogus.com> Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2020 08:45:55 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.15; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------8C795D099DF4D151CA65E292" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: [netmod] IPR poll on draft-wwx-netmod-event-yang X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2020 16:45:58 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------8C795D099DF4D151CA65E292 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Authors, Contributors, WG, As part of preparation for WG Adoption Are you aware of any IPR that applies to drafts identified above? Please state either: "No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft" or "Yes, I'm aware of IPR that applies to this draft" If so, has this IPR been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules (see RFCs 3669, 5378 and 8179 for more details)? If yes to the above, please state either: "Yes, the IPR has been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules" or "No, the IPR has not been disclosed" If you answer no, please provide any additional details you think appropriate. If you are listed as a document author or contributor please answer the above by responding to this email regardless of whether or not you are aware of any relevant IPR. This document will not advance to the next stage until a response has been received from each author and listed contributor. NOTE: THIS APPLIES TO ALL OF YOU LISTED IN THIS MESSAGE'S TO LINES. If you are on the WG email list or attend WG meetings but are not listed as an author or contributor, we remind you of your obligations under the IETF IPR rules which encourages you to notify the IETF if you are aware of IPR of others on an IETF contribution, or to refrain from participating in any contribution or discussion related to your undisclosed IPR. For more information, please see the RFCs listed above and http://trac.tools.ietf.org/group/iesg/trac/wiki/IntellectualProperty. Thank you, NetMod WG Chairs PS Please include all listed in the headers of this message in your response. --------------8C795D099DF4D151CA65E292 Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="pEpkey.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="pEpkey.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- mQENBF0zjHcBCAC/VccTV8/Owi3MQVGop8umVKn4stHzV/F4/5+ixMnzkhhRsI1L 305ew6Uh+ypYkKn28X7B5+3zNIRxK+JKkV9QKufSBPFcTd41xoknMtCMSr5QZIln A61tLz2oCIdB6eiTrzI60pHwd0idCOmAEqUP8JLfaQZK9JNQ416Kb/8CHiDhkG0N 17l0EYT+uVVBlUbSAgbaw6gO2csUPeASB6oiFd9AdCBVMQsQ4Q57Giz1oFam/FJw igtZ4TG+fW8dM1k8ngyonN8RzdTwnkkPLCNrttdOfjrv9llianW9Jz48l52ViT39 S82tYLkDuNbQ0AJKK8lniYz0yvs47k5WHF/VABEBAAG0H0pvZWwgSmFlZ2dsaSA8 am9lbGphQGJvZ3VzLmNvbT6JAVQEEwEIAD4WIQTSCLPd1dloH5f5hauFzc47B3GZ 7AUCXTOMdwIbAwUJAeEzgAULCQgHAgYVCgkICwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRCFzc47 B3GZ7HcvCAChCaaK8xnP5z7bxz5y5tX15fpEzjjhz0fHe32gJ2uZblWzhX6ch/6z 2k51Pcnf0FJj788Nu+WI0kF/U81jByvbz5WPlEBm7E/D0HLxsIWkbt0AlNjiDIP8 WuTZ0Lom/m7YFzwLTN7g+MI5Jqui/LEKcKAqoo5ioGsDGOIa9Fq7/WWkx7fIYvTR pqSpPKdZs3kz1z9QvncyM3IrY7fOMD4hShCwcA2HU+rl61g6aIZmpG7LXT0ZlHfY UMk8zxL/8/S89p7ZPxhxrjDeYMPxlexmWY9KZS6Ek6ugO2udHeEDagpUpUrmqEgg tK8qSsmclqqWXWps5Bl8JLueamnwV+77uQENBF0zjHcBCADWGXodjIueeHPimoj7 55ExPKJvP8ECZProTxJ86N5xmLP9Fbs70FKSxRwv4at1fWgvEwOU9w0ibq7CT+wo neboxFsWh6GEHlskSlgr5MpqCJXSpcoHABR7aBaBecFAD2YS3Zaf7GUCHcl51Bb8 7Xuj59tS8S5RCMtQ5spAL1unLt/rIBbEaiJR24/vJQLuZAJtAeUQgy0s2daBFKfL j/7AIVGTpbFSpM3iiOOjFnvQsWapzxheLNS57OY7DaQWDsd/E8zFHcTJLpotST4r AkWnXvrCxOkFKX+WJ1TKiy8I0enIa1U8aB+9YswHy4fE3GbGqeMDjSxCziNLKKe+ MlZ1ABEBAAGJATwEGAEIACYWIQTSCLPd1dloH5f5hauFzc47B3GZ7AUCXTOMdwIb DAUJAeEzgAAKCRCFzc47B3GZ7G9dB/9mvCNEjuJVv9IdcziUFrWX8r0rZPRTw+iH 1EKxpE5RWU+LTf3dNJWz/s8pItLkevjIz4tLOdoAa8awj4xqoLkoVFr/LTU7ugaF ZksanT5/E5ZsDm/ngsdUAgOwZvalOU6cdj7Utzk1xWbGfPLnx86a8VzEaCMtzNX6 roW3zJPBcxnDekuvuHnEiAvUBDGhf2GcVafVRuyM0MOlT7jQ0B8N6mcmojJFSJvO 4jFLiT2/9vPgl4i41S3P8jbjEBQ24U26BDBuB3yNOvoaPDcRUsC1sKHHZCr1cwan 0E4HFJ5kouvANneQTsH+QtWnGZ9mtDrmR+qZ4p7+4dXve+HsG64S =3DmE9q -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- --------------8C795D099DF4D151CA65E292-- From nobody Tue Feb 18 10:00:32 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 204E7120045 for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 10:00:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yahoo.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id p9REfxXZvp-Q for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 10:00:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from sonic303-22.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (sonic303-22.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [66.163.188.148]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C4F12120018 for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 10:00:26 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1582048825; bh=CJDcp9CZbJ2P3yeh7qNbjsxRgTJ3XN3n9mmLR0KMH70=; h=Date:From:To:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject; b=qpgOxJlsrylNlFO5V4G2045g14o2oBdDfbKp7ZZvoscjnPsAPlHIZBiFdbOdN+wu/WmiHhzbhpMpb3F2mpDsZyGAhZcviw08+YIDSbyXZOXr8vqS1NlmsMYk4hxV/Intuz8hdveZYW/NOXHcfJ9cCiAP9Wp/GUhpYPejLDVTyiLXKJJ7mcz85j3WimW2Lruk/N0FwuDgytcXfvgjNJZlvwsTiLa+dRkjBc4y/O7LSyK6caJqY3Fy922bJ1W39H2YbkzvF1GIgIjA4wkUs7XTq1mGWi4nvgj5XrYOMZntf3GRQY9Zt5wAu12w+BmIdhwb2GrqAk2eMabqgmd8xDDaZw== X-YMail-OSG: OvkIQnwVM1l2vSBJT6utDNaDIrVcOSd6.LbtNbNLfvZZNE3zC_624LfuR14AO1n Zr0YH5MJR9NDU1z9GKtjCr0R1u8uN.ERi_95JQhnvCdPepUiAnYClN2q9uL8t7ND.FTYOlyz8N2n DLDCU3SoXh_nEgCiPRqf0xzuF0rAVhhfFqcO6tDELAbbIr7RexbMPnT0BK5fw1FqqyDCU3saTwJf j2gF7CxtuuTR4QR2XhptX5ICYyOoEuXIOj7MPL3wi9ly.fbH4FEipx87Pq48LLZyongoTE_vupKa 5YhZD8U8T0pcHRLJ3H41p23I2woqniTfydzfsyeUm5HaLCX8PVh61TZ32TxYIdc2scFJbO2TwxCj xJBjRx7ZFaKnNWoGmrwYzf9rkpiu907t44qfHlHxvyHeFVWGnrKa01iZ5tOhhQIbdBhJIBAzY64j ba_g1xaqyiWdWH2vTphMKbtUyqQNjW9JtQqq4R5cQKWyuu9nGxsqHRGGTMGKBoQo4xCeU1ovjxt. 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ZR9lfncmHZEkktu4dqay0MtCiQB8TRdDqzpiLwBOZQftIMJ1cOWabWXHF78s0Vhm3QpMGG1ag9pE c5Dnm97JrQFJImIBe97v0e2xQ_V9eC_cEXpmtJ5wpRP.bS0wbv8ibm8JTLc56ii3SDclcq6CabJg EQnW8w0NMHOJPZo1w_3u0G9hXJNicOSAYN_UBrVghjeAJ5QZixWCXj_Yh8bK5w3kN8Q52bwAI_Q_ rbT_R3fER11bTzpTNqb6eBrGD7MnzlAEh3D7Zc4xzEe8CxPVU3DLRMTn.YTCL8yEEAfdfvj8j7qZ W3KQjK1WE_v8w70c4g1k1dyaFZcHGVAm2M1ivmGc- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic303.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 18:00:25 +0000 Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2020 17:59:55 +0000 (UTC) From: Igor Bryskin To: draft-wwx-netmod-event-yang@ietf.org, netmod@ietf.org, Joel Jaeggli Message-ID: <1075892840.4678779.1582048795015@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <5a393145-f01b-e1b8-5f3b-5dca1210893e@bogus.com> References: <5a393145-f01b-e1b8-5f3b-5dca1210893e@bogus.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_4678778_521138384.1582048795013" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.15199 YMailNorrin Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:59.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/59.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] IPR poll on draft-wwx-netmod-event-yang X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2020 18:00:30 -0000 ------=_Part_4678778_521138384.1582048795013 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, I am not aware of any IPR pertinent to this draft. Regards, Igor On Tuesday, February 18, 2020, 11:46:07 AM EST, Joel Jaeggli wrote: Authors, Contributors, WG, As part of preparation for WG Adoption Are you aware of any IPR that applies to drafts identified above? Please state either: "No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft" or "Yes, I'm aware of IPR that applies to this draft" If so, has this IPR been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules (see RFCs 3669, 5378 and 8179 for more details)? If yes to the above, please state either: "Yes, the IPR has been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules" or "No, the IPR has not been disclosed" If you answer no, please provide any additional details you think appropriate. If you are listed as a document author or contributor please answer the above by responding to this email regardless of whether or not you are aware of any relevant IPR. This document will not advance to the next stage until a response has been received from each author and listed contributor. NOTE: THIS APPLIES TO ALL OF YOU LISTED IN THIS MESSAGE'S TO LINES. If you are on the WG email list or attend WG meetings but are not listed as an author or contributor, we remind you of your obligations under the IETF IPR rules which encourages you to notify the IETF if you are aware of IPR of others on an IETF contribution, or to refrain from participating in any contribution or discussion related to your undisclosed IPR. For more information, please see the RFCs listed above and http://trac.tools.ietf.org/group/iesg/trac/wiki/IntellectualProperty. Thank you, NetMod WG Chairs PS Please include all listed in the headers of this message in your response. _______________________________________________ netmod mailing list netmod@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod ------=_Part_4678778_521138384.1582048795013 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

I am not aware = of any IPR pertinent to this draft.

Regards,
Igor


=20
=20
On Tuesday, February 18, 2020, 11:46:07 AM EST, Joel Ja= eggli <joelja@bogus.com> wrote:


Authors, Contributors, WG,
<= div dir=3D"ltr">
As part of preparation for WG Ad= option

Are you aware o= f any IPR that applies to drafts identified above?

Please state either:

"No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to t= his draft"
or
"Yes, I'm= aware of IPR that applies to this draft"

If so, has this IPR been disclosed in compliance with I= ETF IPR rules
(see RFCs 3669, 5378 and 8179 for m= ore details)?

If yes t= o the above, please state either:

"Yes, the IPR has been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR ru= les"
or
"No, the IPR ha= s not been disclosed"

= If you answer no, please provide any additional details you think
=
appropriate.

If you are listed as a document author or contributor please answe= r the
above by responding to this email regardles= s of whether or not you are
aware of any relevant= IPR. This document will not advance to the next
= stage until a response has been received from each author and listed
contributor. NOTE: THIS APPLIES TO ALL OF YOU LISTED IN= THIS MESSAGE'S
TO LINES.

If you are on the WG email list or attend WG = meetings but are not listed
as an author or contr= ibutor, we remind you of your obligations under
t= he IETF IPR rules which encourages you to notify the IETF if you are
aware of IPR of others on an IETF contribution, or to r= efrain from
participating in any contribution or = discussion related to your
undisclosed IPR. For m= ore information, please see the RFCs listed above
and
http://trac.tools.ietf.org/group/iesg/trac/w= iki/IntellectualProperty.

Thank you,
NetMod WG Chairs

PS Please include all listed in the hea= ders of this message in your
response.
_= ______________________________________________
netmod mailing list
netmod@= ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
------=_Part_4678778_521138384.1582048795013-- From nobody Tue Feb 18 10:01:16 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 312F512004C for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 10:01:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yahoo.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XEdo_MgxpDBf for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 10:01:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from sonic304-21.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (sonic304-21.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [66.163.191.147]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2CC7B120018 for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 10:01:13 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1582048872; bh=jKtvMJBFIqw8qVPD/r6Y+3pAdIVACb523GiX4tXhDdY=; h=Date:From:To:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject; b=sKl04qacTC3TU6KFVjdQUdpjKZEq2SjSGKw7C42RZGYtXNKlugiLN1/55dJYAD19KY6YoGMr+qInxw6Qm0HJupNydLfkMxPZuc6cH/DrdWu1299da90ufCLTv+OPbzuqAUb6I/DXtd+Rn7j0UeBIe7xonwVXIzdwBDl5D2EtSa9xJMhj5EDavufkUR25iOWpCDxAgPGC5I/bB0Rsmhee8AbSAUJKlRHEoxhXdlYK9ub4FBsocppJoTYUbMDMMM0Srhb6oWIPumTl5KK0ZgIwMgQjp608OL1/os6Ibsr6AvfLB7t+Bo2HaR/EFCFnBlcmMsQsG/hd7wcGIuhm+qZF1Q== X-YMail-OSG: zgYiDJgVM1lKN0h0wNj31HCzel3vqSlNkENTdEapY1lQJAj0wZUNst_aB6I849U WP.ohtCKeWRX9zxKIZJztQMlddUPFalqIrsvuCKh5.NYO7b1Hg6ZwLNKh4gPQaldWTCxAxCB5hwu uToOm..lbBMuXnggT3BDz9AtV3FZZOiPp1Xgzz65Q2Ml8V6BxAngZN0XgcvgTEWdIFAVSApxfRap nFBdou_RM2vO5jKGwPImgwaJvDcLpWXe3OdxadL.rjLPDtrhDVjMtdqmT5H62NN2D5DpQe5XCgGw gQ98Kuu4_AS7K_vJlQjGbT19O2zRuecF_y3pcWiAZC4Jc70vuHhlvmbUQcDVcYbUSrJakErmqJlf BFSAGNVmzecDz9gb2JywaEQ4UenGt_L6Ky02F9jQ2cPMR9oJdtMmoZYt1c7pqRqik47LcVFSlEqV 3Hde2CVyfFDekKlCDR.NMkPXhl5ntpCu_lt5Bbea7mTob0WDUqUypPnwCiE45s2PdYfmEjBUGc83 bm58hJ1KrRv2Y2r1Uptm27vFvXlkNUzWXxHYHyyIgwKuIuRA4OH03wh7CPKM01o1zi4cjCSNoRcI RmuwJ48cDly4GTocbG70QpWrCnj6RURoGWLifDYT0cwb3HN927Puh2A86_JwsbvDo7I6Zf1CEgFm 3n17KFvXa_QhpArARtfrc0EOXnI8jcrXcwNw2tGC_8mYlkBfQx5kjCTUHW9tbstBRScCjmVmZoEq bzIN_Tbqo8jibvkRRtokil8uNEVhIBzDzWO07JYz9OVc6wmG1rj67KhfmJoGYNWCI1qeXkYMdoE4 FdHe3c69nUkdPxs8jLmXFiI6xk3YkPjWYL5QQOV4SZDZogcV1gvlEDH07AEFCXoQumiD7un.lHGc HSBIuGM_JFQ5H_unTnzMS8tU81kSiIXYbiJCsyCv5lXqve_SWYX.aMrPUhAzDonfSm61VHrZ7LE. bYyWH9Hi4E4hPrKE7wcxdc2liNmrfz8.ZHrgDrLZnfLT5kDTmPi1kIxx6vHqABYuuLMMIZ2ry1kX xpSCPd06PY.I6lWRTZU.ZrKrOk9nqNTuYRrkQxQFFLhVjJ.DHtokUbyaLfee0Bk_8RQqnHyPnkGy oucFvEVQjzs31Ofv1V3jvRmAcxL47VVqcvEHTVDCplzZ_1s30_JKYfyGdBRQZ0cKAGLPGzZHC3H8 flZOFEO92nviS1AWZ1z_SMlEo8Yn8z1.oj3b5YDl4f5eOSCTqFoF8JkgCIoLtQiNEA1O8mkQDT7V jih_Ve.v_RG2qKuY7dnfGZu8BAU0K4UBmKTuOyixJ6YlantBu8a0wUWTzf6K4NuwDeMtBRy80gLE _eZaRwrQwxwhf3vXFp3_27GAoxrLDUAG4FPap Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic304.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 18:01:12 +0000 Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2020 18:01:09 +0000 (UTC) From: Igor Bryskin To: draft-wwx-netmod-event-yang@ietf.org, netmod@ietf.org, Joel Jaeggli Message-ID: <1004764733.4684727.1582048869877@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <5a393145-f01b-e1b8-5f3b-5dca1210893e@bogus.com> References: <5a393145-f01b-e1b8-5f3b-5dca1210893e@bogus.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_4684724_2073024183.1582048869875" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.15199 YMailNorrin Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:59.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/59.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] IPR poll on draft-wwx-netmod-event-yang X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2020 18:01:15 -0000 ------=_Part_4684724_2073024183.1582048869875 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, I am not aware of any IPR pertinent to this draft. Regards, Igor On Tuesday, February 18, 2020, 11:45:59 AM EST, Joel Jaeggli wrote: Authors, Contributors, WG, As part of preparation for WG Adoption Are you aware of any IPR that applies to drafts identified above? Please state either: "No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft" or "Yes, I'm aware of IPR that applies to this draft" If so, has this IPR been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules (see RFCs 3669, 5378 and 8179 for more details)? If yes to the above, please state either: "Yes, the IPR has been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules" or "No, the IPR has not been disclosed" If you answer no, please provide any additional details you think appropriate. If you are listed as a document author or contributor please answer the above by responding to this email regardless of whether or not you are aware of any relevant IPR. This document will not advance to the next stage until a response has been received from each author and listed contributor. NOTE: THIS APPLIES TO ALL OF YOU LISTED IN THIS MESSAGE'S TO LINES. If you are on the WG email list or attend WG meetings but are not listed as an author or contributor, we remind you of your obligations under the IETF IPR rules which encourages you to notify the IETF if you are aware of IPR of others on an IETF contribution, or to refrain from participating in any contribution or discussion related to your undisclosed IPR. For more information, please see the RFCs listed above and http://trac.tools.ietf.org/group/iesg/trac/wiki/IntellectualProperty. Thank you, NetMod WG Chairs PS Please include all listed in the headers of this message in your response. ------=_Part_4684724_2073024183.1582048869875 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

I am= not aware of any IPR pertinent to this draft.

Regards,
Igor



=20
=20
On Tuesday, February 18, 2020, 11:45:59 AM EST, Joel Ja= eggli <joelja@bogus.com> wrote:


Authors, Contributors, WG,
<= div dir=3D"ltr">
As part of preparation for WG Ad= option

Are you aware o= f any IPR that applies to drafts identified above?

Please state either:

"No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to t= his draft"
or
"Yes, I'm= aware of IPR that applies to this draft"

If so, has this IPR been disclosed in compliance with I= ETF IPR rules
(see RFCs 3669, 5378 and 8179 for m= ore details)?

If yes t= o the above, please state either:

"Yes, the IPR has been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR ru= les"
or
"No, the IPR ha= s not been disclosed"

= If you answer no, please provide any additional details you think
=
appropriate.

If you are listed as a document author or contributor please answe= r the
above by responding to this email regardles= s of whether or not you are
aware of any relevant= IPR. This document will not advance to the next
= stage until a response has been received from each author and listed
contributor. NOTE: THIS APPLIES TO ALL OF YOU LISTED IN= THIS MESSAGE'S
TO LINES.

If you are on the WG email list or attend WG = meetings but are not listed
as an author or contr= ibutor, we remind you of your obligations under
t= he IETF IPR rules which encourages you to notify the IETF if you are
aware of IPR of others on an IETF contribution, or to r= efrain from
participating in any contribution or = discussion related to your
undisclosed IPR. For m= ore information, please see the RFCs listed above
and
http://trac.tools.ietf.org/group/iesg/trac/w= iki/IntellectualProperty.

Thank you,
NetMod WG Chairs

PS Please include all listed in the hea= ders of this message in your
response.
<= /div>
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Tue, 18 Feb 2020 18:32:26 +0000 From: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sch=F6nw=E4lder=2C_J=FCrgen?= CC: "netmod@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [netmod] Alexey Melnikov's Discuss on draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags-07: (with DISCUSS) Thread-Index: AQHV4m8DGI058sprvkKdYtaQYpu786gaftpggAAIeQCAAAFigIAABDQAgABwz4CABESmAIAAXa6AgAAxS4CAACAfgIAACOqAgAAEpoCAANIMUIAABMOAgAANy6A= Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2020 18:32:25 +0000 Message-ID: References: <9FECF49A-65E5-436F-973A-7538CFC974E8@chopps.org> <14832a78-ff8c-b923-09ba-207c2cf01362@alumni.stanford.edu> <3a538bc4-b93e-2027-7870-d59e8609944b@alumni.stanford.edu> <27ccbba7-d3d0-a9ab-c19a-9da4fa1d0210@hedeland.org> <20200218111956.bmqx5i6fyjrx7qn4@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> In-Reply-To: <20200218111956.bmqx5i6fyjrx7qn4@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=rwilton@cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [173.38.220.49] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 4f30b13b-bbba-47f2-2ee0-08d7b4a0e70c x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: MN2PR11MB4431: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; 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charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 4f30b13b-bbba-47f2-2ee0-08d7b4a0e70c X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 18 Feb 2020 18:32:25.9517 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: /m2f1j6btR8D6qWfGZONu+XUWH+KHsPhpaKdb4UYUqXSC2v9o2jjamGRC4pa1V+Itn8mUEbBlhOPPygMMFDSZg== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MN2PR11MB4431 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.13, xch-rcd-003.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-10.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Alexey Melnikov's Discuss on draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags-07: (with DISCUSS) X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2020 18:32:33 -0000 Hi Juergen, > -----Original Message----- > From: Sch=F6nw=E4lder, J=FCrgen > Sent: 18 February 2020 11:20 > To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) > Cc: netmod@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [netmod] Alexey Melnikov's Discuss on draft-ietf-netmod- > module-tags-07: (with DISCUSS) >=20 > On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 11:12:47AM +0000, Rob Wilton (rwilton) wrote: > > > > I'm also not convinced of how many implementations would properly honou= r > the XML regex property categories, e.g., if the pattern statement has bee= n > translated to another regex engine. > > >=20 > That's a weird argument. If there is agreement on a restriction and we ca= n > express that restriction in a pattern, we should IMHO do so. Not really. I believe that ultimately the configuration is the responsibility of the cl= ient. If there are reasonable steps that a server can take to help police = that configuration and reject obvious errors then that is obviously helpful= , but it most cases a server cannot check that the value provided by the cl= ient is correct, which I suspect is the far more likely error (e.g. a clien= t configures the wrong IP address rather than a malformed IP address). So, in the case of regexes, I still prefer a shorter, easier to read/unders= tand, and likely more performant pattern statement instead of a longer, com= plex, and harder to verify pattern statement. In particular, I note that unicode properties do not seem to be widely used= in YANG pattern statements (e.g. perhaps only 10 unique pattern instances = in all YANG modules on github YANG repo, some of which look plausibly wrong= to me (unless they intended to include ASCII control characters), and henc= e I question whether it is worth using them, but maybe I am being biased to= wards languages using the Latin alphabet. Further, I was concerned that there didn't seem to be widespread support fo= r unicode properties within standard regex engines, but it looks like this = may have changed, and perhaps support for them is more widespread now, even= if the exact specification of what character properties are defined and wh= at characters are included in those properties seem to able to vary over ti= me depending on the unicode version, and presumably between implementations= . In the case of module tags, I'm not sure what would go wrong if a space was= included in the tag name. I suspect nothing, just that it could be confus= ing to a user when displayed. So, I'm still think that pragmatically the existing regex is fine. But if = the consensus is to use \P{Z} or better \P{Separator} then I would also be = okay with that. >=20 > Note the order: It is backwards if there is first a pattern and as a > consequence we agree on that specific restriction. >=20 > Ideally, the agreed upon restriction is stated in the description and if > possible also expressed as a pattern. This way it does not matter how > implementations enforce the restriction and it is clear to everyone what > the pattern is trying to achieve. Yes. I agree to both these points. Thanks, Rob >=20 > /js >=20 > -- > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Tue Feb 18 12:43:11 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCE75120830 for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 12:42:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=kumari-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5ePNCHT03j69 for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 12:42:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk1-x730.google.com (mail-qk1-x730.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::730]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D405612081C for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 12:42:57 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk1-x730.google.com with SMTP id c20so20934146qkm.1 for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 12:42:57 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=kumari-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=oLX+flOmQyF8YnhtXTsH2zE2ujvOupYtmmvaaY8iWTA=; b=DEiD7l4cvZna8enc+6N+OWZozzWXZ1MIQKSKrzzsduucZwa/qeG+dYDrDa8oUpWZyH xv//is1XpoPIi/A08wrKsc05Yb5oYofptI6Mo1XcZzMogXsRZ48zc2qGgdo5HvpSgBSI zRuXxeOJV1lw6Yk5a+w8l1h2MazMrEJhbdTIXprdYDvULc5Ro7iuHrhd8mXT63/0XanB YYsiIojB9/Bqae2oc/E/BQ1eylrO14urSD0s2Xt/unZw2MRZ4riscklXm3/pb9HUoNVs F9UeAhxYRuQ4pfZln0dE2zTiVe6XqTaMogr59G0/OZJMhZ38lL1coYMuhMqW9Eh5cjaF 5N1Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=oLX+flOmQyF8YnhtXTsH2zE2ujvOupYtmmvaaY8iWTA=; b=khMqhpQyLpKBcRv+Gbe3aDj8fv9k5HueqJlBuapdsjY2M7U4YIG5iBJPhQZGG7kPjA uVBzDHSEN7iF+MtAe2e4hUJsLZl64B+xAb9WDQxWW/y2TCaSEXMdN1gQVcjUuzWPDtsP Cjny4CAVEanYd5+VgdBXGwU3d1K4060dReeYWFlaH9ujMqUBu90SuPK/NfIZyrHNXlu1 1muAHaHB+exUg05eM1OVo0/7c8vSZvFhIjor3SRF260Cb0KbsQltbcV0bhLCkQRP9zVU mijaQQq+/B09+VkSv7uMTitz8I3/TA4TFYSZvlQt5f2Xz1+8J6sU9gXYmfrxCNqiEnot 48Lg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWhFRgD3uMPcJ1alLW0dcHZUQtVV5xfNsCAzjK8iTikfiAUU1s0 qhFFSyDNNWYFSFXnSB3T+igpogo4W6V6BPyFZem+0g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyQ40ARxVKnxbSV9b72Xry6zDyOf1ohsLy1HbwZVTyjBI1TFkbDwWvn6yAK+dRr5VtluQVmdysjR73kEDxNp14= X-Received: by 2002:a37:6193:: with SMTP id v141mr20036666qkb.37.1582058576771; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 12:42:56 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Warren Kumari Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2020 07:42:21 +1100 Message-ID: To: draft-ietf-netmod-factory-default@ietf.org, NetMod WG , netmod-chairs@ietf.org, "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: [netmod] Changing responsible AD for draft-ietf-netmod-factory-default X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2020 20:43:00 -0000 Hi there all, I have just reassigned the responsible AD for draft-ietf-netmod-factory-default from Ignas to myself. Rob Wilton (the incoming Management AD, CCed) will be doing the actual "work" part of this, I'm primarily acting as a proxy / clicking the buttons in the datatracker. Please welcome Rob into his new role, W -- I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad idea in the first place. This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants. ---maf From nobody Tue Feb 18 12:58:48 2020 Return-Path: <010001705a18766c-94142103-ff84-4e9b-ab09-867883dccfed-000000@amazonses.watsen.net> X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58EA7120824; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 12:58:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=amazonses.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pjPoXZkMH60X; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 12:58:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from a8-88.smtp-out.amazonses.com (a8-88.smtp-out.amazonses.com [54.240.8.88]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 043AC120868; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 12:58:38 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/simple; s=6gbrjpgwjskckoa6a5zn6fwqkn67xbtw; d=amazonses.com; t=1582059517; h=Content-Type:Mime-Version:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Message-Id:References:To:Feedback-ID; bh=+Mz4Hy9mNxD98bZ+JRa/DtLqfGJgFmHOpAxDUL94n3M=; b=hYnIjkn+5YGOem2iTjFi3zrgQh1xGLNZiUadd1G7Aq+midWvNm0//AMLJ9YNlpmU pyuuW2KCam+8VMJExYRJi4IX5A93rXJI9/4dFxghNs2lWtFm3YU1OEsZWB19iPC7hoo WaAP456HpJX643oGljoniz3P28vtWW9odD1M74Kc= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Kent Watsen In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2020 20:58:37 +0000 Cc: draft-ietf-netmod-factory-default@ietf.org, "netmod@ietf.org" , "netmod-chairs@ietf.org" , "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <010001705a18766c-94142103-ff84-4e9b-ab09-867883dccfed-000000@email.amazonses.com> References: To: Warren Kumari X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-SES-Outgoing: 2020.02.18-54.240.8.88 Feedback-ID: 1.us-east-1.DKmIRZFhhsBhtmFMNikgwZUWVrODEw9qVcPhqJEI2DA=:AmazonSES Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Changing responsible AD for draft-ietf-netmod-factory-default X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2020 20:58:45 -0000 Thanks for jumping in early, Rob! And thank you, Warren, for helping make this happen :) K. > On Feb 18, 2020, at 3:42 PM, Warren Kumari wrote: > > Hi there all, > > I have just reassigned the responsible AD for > draft-ietf-netmod-factory-default from Ignas to myself. > > Rob Wilton (the incoming Management AD, CCed) will be doing the actual > "work" part of this, I'm primarily acting as a proxy / clicking the > buttons in the datatracker. > > Please welcome Rob into his new role, > W > -- > I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad > idea in the first place. > This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing > regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair > of pants. > ---maf > > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod From nobody Tue Feb 18 15:17:09 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3DF7120836 for ; 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Tue, 18 Feb 2020 23:17:02 +0000 Received: from localhost (212.201.44.247) by FR2P281CA0031.DEUP281.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:d10:14::18) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2750.18 via Frontend Transport; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 23:17:02 +0000 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sch=F6nw=E4lder=2C_J=FCrgen?= To: Joel Jaeggli CC: "netmod@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [netmod] Adoption poll for draft-wwx-netmod-event-yang Thread-Index: AQHV5rGG/WubBQrYckSiWEEsgzHRGA== Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2020 23:17:02 +0000 Message-ID: <20200218231700.3tho6ngescf2k4zh@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> References: In-Reply-To: Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sch=F6nw=E4lder=2C_J=FCrgen?= Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-clientproxiedby: FR2P281CA0031.DEUP281.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:d10:14::18) To DB6P190MB0312.EURP190.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:6:34::31) authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de; 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x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata: mstIzZ+0fYOdaiU2/JuUV/VFdRyPPvbFCYtwVHEsSF/njFVrXK/qn/OByLgZduK4/snKpQNA8rhXmHFjdnZhAEXSR/f7szsfwQ0a4uHqfAQBzy/Wt1y59IXEjmGkRBdMSsaDyVrzFlMhw0ZdfiTllg== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: <4363E3F8BACD9D4E954AEA582F1CEB1E@EURP190.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: jacobs-university.de X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 780043e3-ddf2-419c-2ce2-08d7b4c8a946 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 18 Feb 2020 23:17:02.4111 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: f78e973e-5c0b-4ab8-bbd7-9887c95a8ebd X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: s7REl6+mc1U1UwJXt/hkPMSmDuaU1IhJGcrmjp2T2r8RYUfFI8ZNzk51jw9/h7QCtVTgmPnqSB6y9dXs2jix3UzRwLiJUPogXkhnU7PJU6Y= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB6P190MB0374 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Adoption poll for draft-wwx-netmod-event-yang X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2020 23:17:08 -0000 On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 08:44:18AM -0800, Joel Jaeggli wrote: > This email begins a 2 week working group adoption poll for: >=20 > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wwx-netmod-event-yang-06 >=20 > Please voice your support or objections before the poll completes on > March 3rd. I am against adoption of this draft. I wonder whether Benoit will explain his contributions to this document; Benoit was added as a co-author in -06 and he used to be rather sceptical about the SUPA work (and this is essentially part of the SUPA work resubmitted to the NETMOD WG). Despite this, the YANG definitions are clearly not up to the level one would expect for WG adoption. Many descriptions are just repetition of leaf names and there are obvious errors such as leaf-list day-of-month { type uint8 { range "0..59"; } description "A set of days of the month at which this scheduling timing will trigger."; } Despite the strange range, it is unclear how a number will in the range will identify a set. Note, this is an example, there are lots of them in the document. The examples provides are not convincing and technically wrong (how can 10m match leaf interval { type uint32 { range "1..max"; } units "seconds"; mandatory true; description "The number of seconds between two triggers generated by this periodic timing object."; } and I have serious doubts that the design is anywhere close to be practically usable. There need to be mechanisms to bind 'variables' while matching conditions that and be reused in action definitions, it is not scalable to have constants such as interface names in the examples hard-coded in policy rules - this would lead to a huge number of rules if you want to apply policy rules to all interfaces. There is also a lack of extensibility, which is important for a core policy language, and definitions like: identity function-type { description "Possible values are: plus, minus, mult, divide, remain."; } without ever defining these operators feels strange. I also not convinced that the resulting expressions are expressive enough for real-world use. This document is in a state that requires way too much effort to fix in a WG process. I also doubt that expressing policies in such a low-level format is usable in practice. Policy languages for network management have a long history and this proposal seems to ignore the lessons learned in the past. /js --=20 Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Tue Feb 18 16:36:32 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EBBD120843 for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 16:36:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.888 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.888 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UzIbccDeHVCQ for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 16:36:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yb1-xb32.google.com (mail-yb1-xb32.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b32]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AC7E612083A for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 16:36:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-yb1-xb32.google.com with SMTP id p123so11512145ybp.2 for ; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 16:36:28 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=WbwdJfVC1Pn+rVW3WQEtfDjRH8ErhpbGpctiNrTEckM=; b=RTNja4X1ZN0TfSyQbIniSQtG42EVynwVkaiq3PJKvb6wYOXJW6K8TLIeU05TOXAlZ0 UkbSCVxrz0NHNR9AuqrqknNa8rnbSV7V6gyLEfnPMzoOHwN+IuyQqPNeCYb5DOZI3nwb xgrZoReKtaaRJoFoMqOtgruKsppCtwcVxRKMsFrz16iMr7AUqQnGwCm260IqxRsRJHmi 7u/wNBEAMGN6cNnl2NULrWCFFBw1WGuQOitHGzZ+2ZdwabYEy400cI05eo/c/BXUth+P ki7yB8mK8mWZzrfxSxBLAiD5t+Y3GPu6YxM3CtJmVxTu1ryoEca7AEGrZ0dCaRGnAdi6 vaIw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=WbwdJfVC1Pn+rVW3WQEtfDjRH8ErhpbGpctiNrTEckM=; b=oJ9r+plxj92fngXcvaCLufnttQ+ZzYbEgz6ndS7XkWRWOl7D+IDnfgk3dx020GSFdk zlhdAN5PJgQwcgeL0fXlsYGXP6Ca4Tt1Dc4o0towrAi4nB2GT35Uapjgkz+XYDr52k4I fncvZjMqkMRYMUcYPCNoB3FOmaDJetK+hSRSC4ngpXXejGDLFkUOvdBwGpDe3wieuJh7 8c16xyr4P1IollbZP9RlS05+RuXBrk6TunqX06YsgyqVggcXGA97kc8PGneZFrvQ/tFL ZgUnYOV6GqTFRQErtsjbYzA2B6I4zSIEtvUIzSWovj+UCF2FLQF7nlLPyCo5u6t+3y/t I2Nw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXrgdPVeXxG/2WVp8PfblugNXEoFlq4Uv4IDqU2qChgEBZDAAXV 7k8KlsrhD7b22a5hEHl1JiI1tWtzB1MCKSw2d65Aag== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyHJDhI1PTtDixRwAPkUUnJqSw/SBpc/E2Ms59Ls9HxBkGfLxjWoQxP994nHWAYTztOQf5ASzMMrGkplLYaImM= X-Received: by 2002:a25:c545:: with SMTP id v66mr22193523ybe.59.1582072587696; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 16:36:27 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200218231700.3tho6ngescf2k4zh@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> In-Reply-To: <20200218231700.3tho6ngescf2k4zh@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> From: Andy Bierman Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2020 16:36:16 -0800 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?B?U2Now7Zud8OkbGRlciwgSsO8cmdlbg==?= Cc: Joel Jaeggli , "netmod@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009950d1059ee2fa9a" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Adoption poll for draft-wwx-netmod-event-yang X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2020 00:36:31 -0000 --0000000000009950d1059ee2fa9a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, I think the procedures we used to follow under Marshall Rose as AD work better than current adoption calls. First we agreed on what problem(s) to solve. Then we agree on solutions. Without the first, it is hard to achieve the second. I would support working on a short requirements draft first, and then revisit the solution if that goes well. I agree with Juergen about the complexity level for real deployments. Decomposing logic expressions into a bunch of YANG list entries will never work. Just use XPath for expressions. It has variables, functions, and expressions in compact string form. There seems to be overlap with RFC 8632. I would expect to see alarms reused instead of reinvented, and ECA visibility into the notifications in each server event stream (from RFC 8639). The Policy Variables and RPC calls are improvements over past solutions but still not enough to implement an ECA platform. A real programming language is required, but that may not need to be standardized. Maybe just mechanisms are needed to bind ECA components (like PVs) to specific languages (like Python). Then bind scripts to conditions and actions instead of using YANG objects. All past attempts to write scripts in SMIv2 or YANG have failed. YANG is not a programming language. Andy On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 3:17 PM Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder, J=C3=BCrgen < J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote: > On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 08:44:18AM -0800, Joel Jaeggli wrote: > > This email begins a 2 week working group adoption poll for: > > > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wwx-netmod-event-yang-06 > > > > Please voice your support or objections before the poll completes on > > March 3rd. > > I am against adoption of this draft. I wonder whether Benoit will > explain his contributions to this document; Benoit was added as a > co-author in -06 and he used to be rather sceptical about the SUPA > work (and this is essentially part of the SUPA work resubmitted to the > NETMOD WG). Despite this, the YANG definitions are clearly not up to > the level one would expect for WG adoption. Many descriptions are > just repetition of leaf names and there are obvious errors such as > > leaf-list day-of-month { > type uint8 { > range "0..59"; > } > description > "A set of days of the month at which this > scheduling timing will trigger."; > } > > Despite the strange range, it is unclear how a number will in the > range will identify a set. Note, this is an example, there are lots of > them in the document. The examples provides are not convincing and > technically wrong (how can 10m match > > leaf interval { > type uint32 { > range "1..max"; > } > units "seconds"; > mandatory true; > description > "The number of seconds between two triggers > generated by this periodic timing object."; > } > > and I have serious doubts that the design is anywhere close to be > practically usable. There need to be mechanisms to bind 'variables' > while matching conditions that and be reused in action definitions, it > is not scalable to have constants such as interface names in the > examples hard-coded in policy rules - this would lead to a huge number > of rules if you want to apply policy rules to all interfaces. > > There is also a lack of extensibility, which is important for a core > policy language, and definitions like: > > identity function-type { > description > "Possible values are: > plus, minus, mult, divide, remain."; > } > > without ever defining these operators feels strange. I also not > convinced that the resulting expressions are expressive enough for > real-world use. > > This document is in a state that requires way too much effort to fix > in a WG process. I also doubt that expressing policies in such a > low-level format is usable in practice. Policy languages for network > management have a long history and this proposal seems to ignore the > lessons learned in the past. > > /js > > -- > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 > > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > --0000000000009950d1059ee2fa9a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

I think the procedures w= e used to follow under Marshall Rose as AD work
better than curre= nt adoption calls. First we agreed on what problem(s) to solve.
T= hen we agree on solutions.=C2=A0 Without the first, it is hard to achieve t= he second.
I would support working on a short requirements draft = first, and then revisit the
solution if that goes well.

I agree with Juergen about the complexity level for real de= ployments.
Decomposing logic expressions into a bunch of YANG lis= t entries will never work.
Just use XPath for expressions. It has= variables, functions, and expressions in compact string form.
There seems to be overlap with RFC 8632.
I woul= d expect to see alarms reused instead of reinvented,
and ECA visi= bility into the notifications in each server event stream (from RFC 8639).<= /div>

The Policy Variables and RPC call= s are improvements over past solutions
but still not enough to im= plement an ECA platform.=C2=A0 A real programming language
is req= uired, but that may not need to be standardized. Maybe just mechanisms are = needed
to bind ECA components (like PVs) to specific languages (l= ike Python).
Then bind scripts to conditions and actions instead = of using YANG objects.
All past attempts to write scripts in SMIv= 2 or YANG have failed.
YANG is not a programming language.
<= div>

Andy


On Tue, Feb 18, 2020= at 3:17 PM Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder, J=C3=BCrgen <J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>= ; wrote:
On Tue,= Feb 18, 2020 at 08:44:18AM -0800, Joel Jaeggli wrote:
> This email begins a 2 week working group adoption poll for:
>
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wwx= -netmod-event-yang-06
>
> Please voice your support or objections before the poll completes on > March 3rd.

I am against adoption of this draft. I wonder whether Benoit will
explain his contributions to this document; Benoit was added as a
co-author in -06 and he used to be rather sceptical about the SUPA
work (and this is essentially part of the SUPA work resubmitted to the
NETMOD WG). Despite this, the YANG definitions are clearly not up to
the level one would expect for WG adoption. Many descriptions are
just repetition of leaf names and there are obvious errors such as

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 leaf-list day-of-month {
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 type uint8 {
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 range "0..59"; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 }
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 description
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 "A set of days of the= month at which this
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0scheduling timing wi= ll trigger.";
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 }

Despite the strange range, it is unclear how a number will in the
range will identify a set. Note, this is an example, there are lots of
them in the document. The examples provides are not convincing and
technically wrong (how can <interval>10m</interval> match

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 leaf interval {
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 type uint32 {
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 range "1..max";<= br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 }
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 units "seconds";
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 mandatory true;
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 description
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 "The number of second= s between two triggers
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0generated by this pe= riodic timing object.";
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 }

and I have serious doubts that the design is anywhere close to be
practically usable. There need to be mechanisms to bind 'variables'=
while matching conditions that and be reused in action definitions, it
is not scalable to have constants such as interface names in the
examples hard-coded in policy rules - this would lead to a huge number
of rules if you want to apply policy rules to all interfaces.

There is also a lack of extensibility, which is important for a core
policy language, and definitions like:

=C2=A0 identity function-type {
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 description
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 "Possible values are:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0plus, minus, mult, divide, remain.";
=C2=A0 }

without ever defining these operators feels strange. I also not
convinced that the resulting expressions are expressive enough for
real-world use.

This document is in a state that requires way too much effort to fix
in a WG process. I also doubt that expressing policies in such a
low-level format is usable in practice. Policy languages for network
management have a long history and this proposal seems to ignore the
lessons learned in the past.

/js

--
Juergen Schoenwaelder=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jacobs Univer= sity Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Campus Ring 1 | 28= 759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:=C2=A0 =C2=A0+49 421 200 3103=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://www.jacobs-university.de/>

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([fe80::74d9:c659:fbec:21fa%31]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Wed, 19 Feb 2020 09:11:44 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: "draft-wwx-netmod-event-yang@ietf.org" , "netmod@ietf.org" , Joel Jaeggli Thread-Topic: [netmod] IPR poll on draft-wwx-netmod-event-yang Thread-Index: AdXmwWze7e87efLBTwqzuvsgMt6YLQ== Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2020 01:11:43 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.138.33.123] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABAAD497EF6dggeml511mbxchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] IPR poll on draft-wwx-netmod-event-yang X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2020 01:11:56 -0000 --_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABAAD497EF6dggeml511mbxchi_ 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--_000_B8F9A780D330094D99AF023C5877DABAAD497EF6dggeml511mbxchi_-- From nobody Tue Feb 18 17:15:47 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4590120866; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 17:15:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AVh_UTXwo8Mz; Tue, 18 Feb 2020 17:15:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0660A120865; Tue, 18 Feb 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([10.3.17.50]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Wed, 19 Feb 2020 09:15:36 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: Kent Watsen , Warren Kumari CC: "draft-ietf-netmod-factory-default@ietf.org" , "netmod@ietf.org" , "netmod-chairs@ietf.org" , "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" Thread-Topic: [netmod] Changing responsible AD for draft-ietf-netmod-factory-default Thread-Index: AdXmwd153m0FgDftT0yIN7PpWiZqVw== Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2020 01:15:36 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.138.33.123] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Changing responsible AD for draft-ietf-netmod-factory-default X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2020 01:15:46 -0000 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DGGEMM423-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.1.198.40) by lhreml707-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.48) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.408.0; Wed, 19 Feb 2020 01:32:49 +0000 Received: from DGGEMM527-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.6.191]) by dggemm423-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.1.198.40]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Wed, 19 Feb 2020 09:32:42 +0800 From: wangzitao To: Joel Jaeggli , "draft-wwx-netmod-event-yang@ietf.org" , "netmod@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: IPR poll on draft-wwx-netmod-event-yang Thread-Index: AdXmxBiQKB6sGvhWSCSAHYphrV2FJQ== Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2020 01:32:42 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.138.33.67] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] IPR poll on draft-wwx-netmod-event-yang X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: 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ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA; 19 Feb 2020 09:52:51 +0000 Received: from [10.55.221.38] (ams-bclaise-nitro5.cisco.com [10.55.221.38]) (authenticated bits=0) by aer-core-2.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 01J9qnnF023892 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 19 Feb 2020 09:52:50 GMT To: Joel Jaeggli , draft-wwx-netmod-event-yang@ietf.org, netmod@ietf.org References: <5a393145-f01b-e1b8-5f3b-5dca1210893e@bogus.com> From: Benoit Claise Message-ID: <3616cff2-8c5c-4176-ab4d-4b9e3cc3ebaf@cisco.com> Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2020 10:52:49 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5a393145-f01b-e1b8-5f3b-5dca1210893e@bogus.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US X-Authenticated-User: bclaise X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.55.221.38, ams-bclaise-nitro5.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-2.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] IPR poll on draft-wwx-netmod-event-yang X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2020 09:52:56 -0000 Hi Joel, No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft Regards, Benoit > Authors, Contributors, WG, > > As part of preparation for WG Adoption > > Are you aware of any IPR that applies to drafts identified above? > > Please state either: > > "No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft" > or > "Yes, I'm aware of IPR that applies to this draft" > > If so, has this IPR been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules > (see RFCs 3669, 5378 and 8179 for more details)? > > If yes to the above, please state either: > > "Yes, the IPR has been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules" > or > "No, the IPR has not been disclosed" > > If you answer no, please provide any additional details you think > appropriate. > > If you are listed as a document author or contributor please answer the > above by responding to this email regardless of whether or not you are > aware of any relevant IPR. This document will not advance to the next > stage until a response has been received from each author and listed > contributor. NOTE: THIS APPLIES TO ALL OF YOU LISTED IN THIS MESSAGE'S > TO LINES. > > If you are on the WG email list or attend WG meetings but are not listed > as an author or contributor, we remind you of your obligations under > the IETF IPR rules which encourages you to notify the IETF if you are > aware of IPR of others on an IETF contribution, or to refrain from > participating in any contribution or discussion related to your > undisclosed IPR. For more information, please see the RFCs listed above > and > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/group/iesg/trac/wiki/IntellectualProperty. > > Thank you, > NetMod WG Chairs > > PS Please include all listed in the headers of this message in your > response. > From nobody Wed Feb 19 02:17:04 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E7E7120104 for ; Wed, 19 Feb 2020 02:17:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.435 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.435 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, RCVD_IN_SBL_CSS=3.335, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=jacobsuniversity.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZGau6kyEWlCw for ; 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x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata: HHf4YrthgvBLZ7zGxxmUEsNeR3dSj6zvaT+ub986VLwAc6TKThIzMGEsUqk0Leo3+l6oH5yOw783xvbZL5EWaOh1lqu8LkDYmiI2w8XpghfU46Hp9N533jI4PKMp6kUIWSfgfljFzXt6aoZnwfjToA== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: <0CBB60D0F6409D45B0D5E2D29209DEEF@EURP190.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: jacobs-university.de X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 365894e4-b5ce-4b3f-86f2-08d7b524d8b1 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 19 Feb 2020 10:16:55.7576 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: f78e973e-5c0b-4ab8-bbd7-9887c95a8ebd X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: GENAF8RAAaShHqyv7T+Hq4zEQnuxMqqk4OVgRyduuSZsZlo7RLAwrPjayF9W47iVdC24FrjRdHz6ON+xuNqobE8gSOM0vcT4jtjNM4CY98s= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB6P190MB0310 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] WG Last Call: draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format-06 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2020 10:17:02 -0000 On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 01:40:13PM +0000, Bal=E1zs Lengyel wrote: > See below as BALAZS2. >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Sch=F6nw=E4lder, J=FCrgen =20 > Sent: 2020. febru=E1r 12., szerda 10:07 > To: Bal=E1zs Lengyel > Cc: Kent Watsen ; NETMOD Working Group > > Subject: [Not Scanned] - Re: [netmod] WG Last Call: > draft-ietf-netmod-yang-instance-file-format-06 >=20 > > - I fail to see the difference between 'content-schema' and 'content > > defining YANG module(s)'. The 'content-schema' is already a set of > > YANG modules. I suggest to remove 'Content defining YANG module(s) > > as it is not a necessary term. Rewrite all places where the phrase > > 'content defining YANG modules' is used. > > BALAZS: a schema is a full set of YANG modules needed to define the=20 > > structure and properties of the instance data (+features, deviations). > > A "content defining YANG module" is an individual YANG module is part= =20 > > of the content-schema. So the difference is a set versus one item. > > I updated the description to emphasize this difference. >=20 > OK. But then what is a non-content defining YANG module? Or are these > schema-defining YANG modules? I still do not get why we need 'content > defining YANG modules' - we did not need that in other specifications so = far > that define schemas. So why do we need new terms here? > BALAZS2: In some paragraphs I reference individual YANG modules that are > part of the content-schema. What would be a better term for the individua= l > modules? >=20 > > - Is it necessary to describe P2 in terms of (presumably) NETCONF > > operations? I would prefer to have the document written in a > > protocol agnostic style. Perhaps simply drop "similar to the > > response of a operation/request". > > BALAZS: This is a reference both to NETCONF and RESTCONF. It was=20 > > explicitly asked for by other reviewers. >=20 > Well, then the correct wording would be "similar to the response of a > NETCONF operation or the RESTCONF response to a GET method invocati= on > on the (unified) datastore resource". Sounds complex and I still prefer t= he > text to be agnostic to specific operations - in particular since an= d > the unified datastore have their limitations. The format is simply reusin= g > the already defined data model encoding formats, i.e., the format has > nothing to do with the operations used to retrieve the data. So I suggest= : >=20 > P2 Instance data shall reuse existing encoding rules for > YANG defined data.=20 >=20 > There is no need to refer to specific protocol operations. > BALAZS: I will use both of your texts. That is the most common question I > get: Will this use the same format as a get-reply? People like to think i= n > terms of a specific easy-to-grasp function instead of a non-descript set = of > "existing" rules. Existing means you need to understand X number of RFCs, > while just looking up a get-reply is easy. It is not precise, but IMHO > that's how people think. If you write "reuse existing encoding rules", then actually fewer documents need to be understood. And operations have additional issues in how they interact with 'datastores', so they may even be misleading and I rather have the standards precise (and minimal normative dependencies). =20 > > - I do not understand that text about the default attribute. Section > > 4.8.9 defines a query parameter, not an attribute. And I do not > > know how that fits into content data. > > BALAZS: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8040#section-4.8.9: > > " If the "with-defaults" parameter is set to "report-all-tagged", then > > the server MUST adhere to the default-reporting behavior defined in > > Section 3.4 of [RFC6243]. Metadata is reported by the server as > > specified in Section 5.3. The XML encoding for the "default" > > attribute sent by the server for default nodes is defined in > > Section 6 of [RFC6243]. The JSON encoding for the "default" > > attribute MUST use the same values, as defined in [RFC6243], but > > encoded according to the rules in [RFC7952]. The module name > > "ietf-netconf-with-defaults" MUST be used for the "default" > > attribute. " > > Here the usage of the default ATTRIBUTE is defined. >=20 > I am still confused about terminology here, an attribute is an XML way of > representing meta data, JSON does this differently. Perhaps some good > examples would clear the confusion. > BALAZS2: The Restconf RFC uses the exact term " the default attribute". I= f > it is acceptable there IMHO I should be able to reuse it here. It is not = my > terminology it's from RFC 8040.=20 >=20 > > - Similarly, I do not understand why implementation specific > > metadata may be included in the content-data. This seems to be the > > wrong place, no? Should metadata not go into the header? > > BALAZS: As this might be meta-data about the individual instance data=20 > > nodes (e.g. metadata following the principles from rfc7952) it=20 > > belongs here. >=20 > OK, perhaps my confusion is that it was not clear to me what kind of > metadata is meant here... > BALAZS2: OK., will try to update, clarify the text. > =20 > > - Why MUST XML attributes be ignored, why is there no text about > > unknown JSON data, 'attributes' (or annotations)? What should > > implementations generally do about unknown elements, attributes, > > objects, arrays, ...)? Why are we specific about only one specific > > case? > > BALAZS: Generally we want to allow users/creators to decorate the=20 > > data with additional information, that is not standardized. Like YANG=20 > > extensions these may be useful, but at least should not cause problems= . > > XML attributes are often used as meta-data and I was asked to list=20 > > them specifically. > >=20 > I do not understand why there are specific rules for XML encodings but no= t > equivalent JSON rules. It looks like either the XML rules are not needed = or > equivalent JSON rules are missing if the XML rules are needed or there > should be an explanation why the different encodings lead to different > results (which is operationally rather surprising). > BALAZS2:XML has 2 distinct ways to encode information XML attributes and > elements. JSON only has one uniform way. XML attributes are often used t= o > carry metadata which is a useful facility and they are not used to encode > "real" YANG defined data. So we want to allow the use of XML attributes a= nd > not go for a least common denominator of the 2 encodings. IMHO it is a > useful facility, IMHO it belongs here, but if you insist I can remove it. I believe this text is odd for what I wrote below. =20 > If we want rules that apply to all encodings, they should be expressed in= an > encoding neutral way. The current text and your response leaves me puzzle= d > what the specification really wants to say here. And do we have to say > something at all? >=20 > > It is unclear what "will be very similar" really means but perhaps > > this is clarified later. If not, this sentence says nothing in > > terms of a technical specification. >=20 > So what is the meaning of "will be very similar"? > BALAZS: Similar means same structure, same data types, but there will als= o > be differences, like the additional metadata and allowing partial data, > ignoring of some constraints that are listed in the chapter. As this is n= ot > a precise term I will use it only in the introduction chapter (principles= ).=20 >=20 > > - Why is EXTERNAL in all caps but Inline in capitalized form? In > > the YANG definitions, EXTERNAL seems to be uri. I think we reduce > > ambiguity by being consistent with how we name things. > > BALAZS: OK, EXTERNAL should not be all caps.=20 > > Here external means that the content-schema is defined externally to=20 > > the instance data set, not even a URI is included. >=20 > So if I have no case in the content-schema-spec choice, then it is extern= al > or how does this work? Perhaps define external differently? > Another attempt: >=20 > External method: Do not include the content-schema, the user needs to obt= ain > the information through external documents. >=20 > I removed "already known" since a tool and human producing an instance fi= le > will in general have no clue what a user of that instance file already > knows. > BALAZS: OK > =20 > > - 3.1.1 How are the details specified in the anydata? Perhaps a > > forward reference might help. What are 'version labels'? > > BALAZS: Added reference to example. > > Version/Revision labels are defined in=20 > > draft-verdt-netmod-yang-module-versioning; > > added as a reference. I added them here (only as an example) as they=20 > > are highly relevant to specifying module versions even if they are not= =20 > > agreed in Netmod yet. The name was changed from version-label to=20 > > revision-label lately. >=20 > Lets use a single term then, lets say "revision labels" if that is the mo= st > recent once. Right now, both terms seem to be used. > BALAZS: OK >=20 > > - I like to understand why we need several methods to specify the > > schema. Having N solution is always bad for interoperability and > > also for maintainability. Perhaps the WG failed to reach consensus > > on a single solution. Or there are strong technical reasons - but > > then they should be clearly stated. What are implementations > > expected to support, all methods? Or whatever the implementer > > prefers? How do we achieve interoperability across tools? > > BALAZS: Different people in the WG wanted different solutions. > > - Some (as I remember you too) asked for a full flexible solution=20 > > which can use multiple modules potentially not even the=20 > > ietf-yang-library to define the schema (Inline solution) > > - some asked for a simple solution listing the content schema modules > > - some wanted just to use a reference (If any this is the one, I would > > remove) > > - some stated that they do not want to define the content-schema at=20 > > all because it is already known So we ended up with 4 methods >=20 > But reaching consensus by doing all four is not necessarily cheap. So wha= t > are compliant tools required to implement. All 4 method? > Whatever the implementer prefers? Or is there a mandatory to support meth= od > (other than external ;-)? The WG needs to understand the costs of having = N > ways to do the same thing. > BALAZS: 2 methods are mandatory: Simplified-Inline & URI.=20 > Inline is controlled by a feature, so it is optional. =20 > External is inherently optional, as whatever is outside this specificatio= n > is undefined thus it may or may not be supported. This means that as soon as I have deviations or I am not supporting all features (this can be quite likely), there is no guaranteed to be supported way to communicate schema information. Well, if that is what the WG believes is what we want... =20 > > - In the second paragraph, I like to see some discussion of snapshot > > consistency. How much consistency can be expected? Are there > > indicators for the level of consistency? I would remove the > > sentence about "valid values can be retrieved at run-time" as this > > is obvious but then I am not sure why 'valid' values? Perhaps the > > authors meant 'current' values? > > BALAZS: OK< Changed to current. I want to keep the second sentence as=20 > > it describes the duality between the original documented values and =20 > > the current values that can be read in run-time. > > Consistency is out of scope. No indicators are provided. It is very=20 > > much use-case and implementation specific. >=20 > In this case, I think it helps to spell out that users cannot assume that > instance data always represents consistent snapshots. > BALAZS2: I would like to avoid the topic. We never stated anything about = the > quality of data in the instance data set.=20 > E.g. if this is a snapshot of state data and it takes time to create a > snapshot, data might change even=20 > during creating the snapshot. This is not described here or in Netconf or= in > Restconf.=20 > Why should we describe this in more details than the protocols. I think the phrase 'snapshot of information at a specific point of time' makes the difference for me. I do not think that RFC 6241 or RFC 8040 promise to create a snapshot or a snapshot of information at a specific point of time. =20 > > - How do I implement the "SHOULD be described"? The default is that > > data can change, only in rare cases data is static. But how does a > > tool creating instance data know 'when and how' data changes in the > > future? I suggest to remove the SHOULD. The text saying that instan= ce > > data is a snapshot is in my view sufficient. > > BALAZS: We do not want to specify the how the changes should be=20 > > described, But we do want to state that this information should be made > available. > > Just a few ideas how this could be done. Provide > > - some plain text in the description of the instance data set > > - some additional metadata e.g. etags, timestamp for the individual=20 > > data nodes. > > - a change indicator in the content defining yang module itself >=20 > I do not know how I implement such a SHOULD. I admit that I do not > understand RFC 2119 language but a lowercase should would make me feel > better. The concern here is that it is entirely implementation specific = how > I make this information available and hence whether I have followed the > SHOULD or not is rather unclear. > BALAZS: OK, lowercase should >=20 > > * Delivery of Instance Data > >=20 > > - Why do we need this SHOULD? I do not think we should use RFC 2119 > > keywords to define how organizations may use the instance data > > format. My proposal is to delete this entire section. > > BALAZS: I will change it to lower case may. > > I was asked to and I want to state that we want to use instance data=20 > > both for offline delivery of design time information and for run-time=20 > > delivery of other data. >=20 > But should this not be stated in the use cases and principles list in > section 2? I think section 5 is a mixture of a use-case concern and a > requirement (oops principle): >=20 > PX: Instance data sets may be read from or produced by a live server > [is YANG server the proper term?] or they can be the result of a > specification or design effort that does not involve a live > server. >=20 > I think the essence of section 5 should be integrated into section 2. > What it says seems misplaced in the middle of the document. (I personally > prefer to talk about objectives rather than principles but that may be ju= st > me.) > BALAZS: OK, I will move it into chapter 2 Introduction. This is really no= t > something mandatory on the implementation. I still do not see why one use case gets a subsection while others are elaborated on in the appendix. I am still not sure section 2.2 is needed. I would rather add the proposed PX to the principles and dump section 2.2. =20 > > (The first 3 users of this format all want to use this for early=20 > > delivery of > >=20 > > server capabilities. It is for now the dominant use case for which the > > 2119 SHOULD is important.).=20 >=20 > I do not think this specification should define SHOULDs for specific use > cases. See my proposal for a possible PX to capture what I think is the c= ore > idea. > BALAZS2: OK, SHOULD change to lower case may. =20 > > * Backwards Compatibility > >=20 > > - I do not think 'managed entity' is a YANG term. > > BALAZS: What term do you propose for something that is managed like an= =20 > > interface or user etc. ? I was told managed entity is a generic term=20 > > that is commonly understood . Would "managed item" or "managed thing"=20 > > be better? > >=20 > > - I think this text is use case specific and the items are kind of > > conflicting with each other (2nd says changing the semantics of a > > list should lead to a change of the key while the 1st suggests > > that changing keys may lead to misinterpretation of something > > being new). > >=20 > > - My proposal is to simply drop this entire section. If use case > > specific text is needed, add it to the use cases in the appendix. > > BALAZS: You don't know how many trouble reports we got in multiple=20 > > use-cases for violating these recommendations. While they may not be=20 > > important for all use-cases, the are important for many. > > Actually we met the problem or had to avoid it in all but one of the=20 > > listed use-cases. >=20 > This text seems specific to certain use cases or best practices and as su= ch > I suggest to integrate it into the appendix C. I do not think this advice > needs to be part of the technical instance data format specification. One > could even argue that some of this also concerns config changes to live > servers. My issue is that I find this discussion misplaced - I like to to > see the format definition separated from any guidelines how to use it. > BALAZS2: I still see this as important as proved by real life situations = and > also as a n explicit request from the Yang versioning requirements draft= . > The text is specific to some use cases: In practice relevant to 90% of t= he > use cases. I understand that you care about this specific use case a lot and it might be 90% in your estimation but this does not change my point that the text seems guidelines text that I prefer to see separated from the technical instance format specification and hence moved into the matching appendix. =20 > > * YANG Model > >=20 > > - How is the inline-content-schema feature used? Which component > > does indicate that inline content-schema is supported? Do all > > implementations have to support simplified-inline? If > > inline-schema is used, how do I find out which schema formats are > > supported? The more formats there are, the more interoperability > > issues will arise. > > Balazs: > > - case inline { is decorated with "if-feature inline-content-schema" >=20 > OK >=20 > > - feature support is generally indicated as part of the=20 > > ietf-yang-library >=20 > OK >=20 > > - simplified-inline is mandatory to support. It is relatively simple,=20 > > so IMHO not a problem >=20 > How do I know whether the feature inline-content-schema is supported in t= his > case? > BALAZS2: IMHO your question is out of scope for this draft.=20 > Just like for any feature you can read it on-line from ietf-yang-library.= If > the information is needed offline it can be documented in any design time > document. My proposal is to use an instance data file based on > ietf-yang-library using the simplified-inline schema declaration method. >=20 > How much simplification is there really compared to the inline method if = I > only list modules in the yang library schema without derivations etc? See= my > earlier point about which schema formats are mandatory to implement and > whether the simplification is worth the extra code and possible > interoperability issues. > BALAZS2: > Compare: > INLINE method: > > > ietf-yang-library@2016-06-21 > > > xmlns=3D"urn:ietf:params:xml:ns:yang:ietf-yang-library"> > > ietf-yang-library > 2016-06-21 > > > ietf-netconf-monitoring > 2010-10-04 > > > > >=20 > SIMPLIFIED INLINE method: > > ietf-yang-library@2020-01-14 > ietf-netconf-monitoring@2020-01-14 > The begining is static overhead (does not increase with # of modules) and the rest marginal when it comes to tools reading this, at least not a big enough argument for me to invent another format. And once you have a deviation or a feature not implemented, you will need the longer format anyway (or simply announce a schema that is not quite correct - I guess this is what people will do). =20 > > - what do you mean with schema-formats? The yang schema is not=20 > > actually included anywhere. > > If the "inline" case is used, instance data corresponding to the=20 > > inline-modules is included, not the schema. > > anydata inline-schema { > > description > > "Instance data corresponding to the YANG modules > > specified in the inline-module nodes defining the set > > of content defining YANG modules for this > > instance-data-set." >=20 > My understanding is that the inline-module indicates a variant of the yan= g > library used and the inline-schema then follows that indicated yang libra= ry > variant and provides the schema. Am I entirely wrong here? > BALAZS2: You are correct. Some extras: > Inline-module could indicate some other module instead of the yang-librar= y. > I was asked to do this earlier by Rob Wilton.=20 > There can be multiple inline-modules so we can use yang-lib with extensio= ns > like a module adding revision-labels Yes, I agree, this makes things even more open ended. My expectations for finding accurate interoperable schema information in instance formats likely needs to be low. =20 > > - It may be useful to explain that data in instance data sets may > > have been filtered by access control rules like NACM and that data > > in instance data sets itself won't be filtered anymore by access > > control rules like NACM. In other words, if I take snapshots and > > stored them as instance data files, these snapshots may leak > > information that is otherwise protected. Hence it is important > > that NACM rules and file access control rules are consistent. > > BALAZS: We do not know if the instance data set was originally=20 > > filtered by NACM or not. We don't know if the users on=20 > > Netconf/Restconf/cli are the same as the users defined in the file=20 > > system., so I fear defining what consistent means would be impossible. > > It is stated that " The same kind of handling should be applied, that > would > > be needed for the result of a operation returning the same > > data." IMHO we can't really say more. >=20 > Yes, I guess what I was trying to say is that a live server may apply > certain access control rules while instance files may not apply the same > rules. In other words, an instance file obtained from a live server by jo= e > and passed on to lucy may reveal information that lucy will not be allowe= d > to see on the live server. By passing around instance files, information = may > accidentally leak. Yes, we can't solve this, put we can point this out. >=20 > BALAZS2: I agree fully, but file security is a really big topic, so > highlighting some areas will not help people. I added: > Care should be taken, when copying the original files or providing=20 > file access for additional users, not to reveal information > unintentionally.=20 >=20 /js --=20 Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Wed Feb 19 02:45:49 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFCA31200EB for ; Wed, 19 Feb 2020 02:45:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.501 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.501 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bWudx_s9mf1S for ; Wed, 19 Feb 2020 02:45:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from aer-iport-1.cisco.com (aer-iport-1.cisco.com [173.38.203.51]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 318D412003E for ; Wed, 19 Feb 2020 02:45:44 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=12854; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1582109144; x=1583318744; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date: mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=/IP8Q0CWnBsYpjq3CJ1St4bR4tQ5VugNyRFIgxfGKfY=; b=bCInRJx4raGju2L4Wctnz5xE3XbI5uyH9gwtqPpRBWj+ZS9KhNbulBW6 ATqA2cVqX5xwIWSRw5NkXlzIeJEZmHpa7/yOX35yo2t+xQbn0hVr7zhWM tHqv/HajCkiHssOgGcbA9ZmFlTiyVDTY5H3APBEJ3VeEErl1jSFm5vNJ4 g=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0BdAABxEE1e/xbLJq1cAQkaAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAwEBAQERAQEBAgIBAQEBgXuBfYEYdRKEPokDiBaTMIYjgWcJAQEBDAE?= =?us-ascii?q?BIwwEAQGEQAKCJzgTAgMNAQEFAQEBAgEFBG2FNwyFZwEFI1YQCxgqAgJXBgE?= =?us-ascii?q?MCAEBgldLAYJ7D6xBdYEyhDkCgQ+DVIE4BoE4jD6BQT+BESeBbn4+gmQBAQO?= =?us-ascii?q?BLQEHAQoBCYMogl4EsA2CRYdPjwcGHIJJiBuEJYwhg1uLE4h3iFyJbwIECwI?= =?us-ascii?q?VgWkiZ3EzGggbFTuCbU8YDZckhUBAA40UgjIBAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos; i="5.70,459,1574121600"; d="scan'208,217"; a="23499078" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-4.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA; 19 Feb 2020 10:45:41 +0000 Received: from [10.55.221.38] (ams-bclaise-nitro5.cisco.com [10.55.221.38]) (authenticated bits=0) by aer-core-4.cisco.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id 01JAjdhM017204 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 19 Feb 2020 10:45:41 GMT To: =?UTF-8?B?U2Now7Zud8OkbGRlciwgSsO8cmdlbg==?= , Joel Jaeggli Cc: "netmod@ietf.org" References: <20200218231700.3tho6ngescf2k4zh@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> From: Benoit Claise Message-ID: <4b29cb4d-d252-b139-a46c-b5530f998a3b@cisco.com> Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2020 11:45:39 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200218231700.3tho6ngescf2k4zh@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------D1BEAFB8410B1986C0923764" Content-Language: en-US X-Authenticated-User: bclaise X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 10.55.221.38, ams-bclaise-nitro5.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: aer-core-4.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Adoption poll for draft-wwx-netmod-event-yang X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2020 10:45:48 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------D1BEAFB8410B1986C0923764 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jürgen, To tell that I was skeptical about the SUPA work is just wrong. I had great hopes for SUPA, as having consistent policy constructs in YANG module was key. The big hope was that those SUPA constructs could be re-used in other YANG modules     example: routing, ACL, security ...     Regardless of the location: in a network element or in a controller/orchestrator     Regardless of the function: network element and service YANG modules If successful, in the end, SUPA would have helped to reuse code. Was I disappointed by the progress? Yes. The results were not there while the rest of the world uses their YANG policy constructs. Timing was key so, as AD, I had to pull the plug. The world has moved on. So be it. You can't infer skepticism from pragmatism. Now, back to the draft. From a network element point, I stressed the need to take have _simple _ECA rules directly routers. Think about RMON event/alarm but for YANG. Think about removing the RMON event/alarm restrictions that it works only for integer/counter. If your point is that the draft is not perfect, fair point. Should we solve attempt to solve that issue? Yes. A confusion comes from the abstract that implies that this work is based on SUPA. Abstract RFC8328 defines a policy-based management framework that allows definition of a data model to be used to represent high-level, possibly network-wide policies. Policy discussed in RFC8328 are classified into imperative policy and declarative policy, Event Condition Action (ECA) policy is an typical example of imperative policy. This document defines a YANG data model for the ECA policy management. The ECA policy YANG provides the ability for the network management function (within a network element) to control the configuration and monitor state change and take simple and instant action on the server when a trigger condition on the system state is met. Actually, in my mind, the abstract should be simplified to something such as (and yes, it could be improved) Abstract This document defines a YANG data model for the ECA policy management. The ECA policy YANG provides the ability for the network management function (within a network element) to control the configuration and monitor state change and take simple and instant action on the server when a trigger condition on the system state is met. And then, somewhere in the introduction, the following text should be reused: RFC8328 defines a policy-based management framework that allows definition of a data model to be used to represent high-level, possibly network-wide policies. Policy discussed in RFC8328 are classified into imperative policy and declarative policy, Event Condition Action (ECA) policy is an typical example of imperative policy. Regards, Benoit. > On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 08:44:18AM -0800, Joel Jaeggli wrote: >> This email begins a 2 week working group adoption poll for: >> >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wwx-netmod-event-yang-06 >> >> Please voice your support or objections before the poll completes on >> March 3rd. > I am against adoption of this draft. I wonder whether Benoit will > explain his contributions to this document; Benoit was added as a > co-author in -06 and he used to be rather sceptical about the SUPA > work (and this is essentially part of the SUPA work resubmitted to the > NETMOD WG). Despite this, the YANG definitions are clearly not up to > the level one would expect for WG adoption. Many descriptions are > just repetition of leaf names and there are obvious errors such as > > leaf-list day-of-month { > type uint8 { > range "0..59"; > } > description > "A set of days of the month at which this > scheduling timing will trigger."; > } > > Despite the strange range, it is unclear how a number will in the > range will identify a set. Note, this is an example, there are lots of > them in the document. The examples provides are not convincing and > technically wrong (how can 10m match > > leaf interval { > type uint32 { > range "1..max"; > } > units "seconds"; > mandatory true; > description > "The number of seconds between two triggers > generated by this periodic timing object."; > } > > and I have serious doubts that the design is anywhere close to be > practically usable. There need to be mechanisms to bind 'variables' > while matching conditions that and be reused in action definitions, it > is not scalable to have constants such as interface names in the > examples hard-coded in policy rules - this would lead to a huge number > of rules if you want to apply policy rules to all interfaces. > > There is also a lack of extensibility, which is important for a core > policy language, and definitions like: > > identity function-type { > description > "Possible values are: > plus, minus, mult, divide, remain."; > } > > without ever defining these operators feels strange. I also not > convinced that the resulting expressions are expressive enough for > real-world use. > > This document is in a state that requires way too much effort to fix > in a WG process. I also doubt that expressing policies in such a > low-level format is usable in practice. Policy languages for network > management have a long history and this proposal seems to ignore the > lessons learned in the past. > > /js > --------------D1BEAFB8410B1986C0923764 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Jürgen,

To tell that I was skeptical about the SUPA work is just wrong.

I had great hopes for SUPA, as having consistent policy constructs in YANG module was key. The big hope was that those SUPA constructs could be re-used in other YANG modules
    example: routing, ACL, security ...
    Regardless of the location: in a network element or in a controller/orchestrator
    Regardless of the function: network element and service YANG modules
If successful, in the end, SUPA would have helped to reuse code.
 
Was I disappointed by the progress? Yes. The results were not there while the rest of the world uses their YANG policy constructs. Timing was key so, as AD, I had to pull the plug.
The world has moved on. So be it.
You can't infer skepticism from pragmatism.

Now, back to the draft.
From a network element point, I stressed the need to take have simple ECA rules directly routers.
Think about RMON event/alarm but for YANG. Think about removing the RMON event/alarm restrictions that it works only for integer/counter.
If your point is that the draft is not perfect, fair point.
Should we solve attempt to solve that issue? Yes.

A confusion comes from the abstract that implies that this work is based on SUPA.
Abstract

   RFC8328 defines a policy-based management framework that allows
   definition of a data model to be used to represent high-level,
   possibly network-wide policies.  Policy discussed in RFC8328 are
   classified into imperative policy and declarative policy, Event
   Condition Action (ECA) policy is an typical example of imperative
   policy.  This document defines a YANG data model for the ECA policy
   management.  The ECA policy YANG provides the ability for the network
   management function (within a network element) to control the
   configuration and monitor state change and take simple and instant
   action on the server when a trigger condition on the system state is
   met.
Actually, in my mind, the abstract should be simplified to something such as (and yes, it could be improved)
Abstract

   This document defines a YANG data model for the ECA policy
   management.  The ECA policy YANG provides the ability for the network
   management function (within a network element) to control the
   configuration and monitor state change and take simple and instant
   action on the server when a trigger condition on the system state is
   met.
And then, somewhere in the introduction, the following text should be reused: 
   RFC8328 defines a policy-based management framework that allows
   definition of a data model to be used to represent high-level,
   possibly network-wide policies.  Policy discussed in RFC8328 are
   classified into imperative policy and declarative policy, Event
   Condition Action (ECA) policy is an typical example of imperative
   policy.

Regards, Benoit.
On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 08:44:18AM -0800, Joel Jaeggli wrote:

This email begins a 2 week working group adoption poll for:

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wwx-netmod-event-yang-06

Please voice your support or objections before the poll completes on
March 3rd.

I am against adoption of this draft. I wonder whether Benoit will
explain his contributions to this document; Benoit was added as a
co-author in -06 and he used to be rather sceptical about the SUPA
work (and this is essentially part of the SUPA work resubmitted to the
NETMOD WG). Despite this, the YANG definitions are clearly not up to
the level one would expect for WG adoption. Many descriptions are
just repetition of leaf names and there are obvious errors such as

          leaf-list day-of-month {
            type uint8 {
              range "0..59";
            }
            description
              "A set of days of the month at which this
               scheduling timing will trigger.";
          }

Despite the strange range, it is unclear how a number will in the
range will identify a set. Note, this is an example, there are lots of
them in the document. The examples provides are not convincing and
technically wrong (how can <interval>10m</interval> match

          leaf interval {
            type uint32 {
              range "1..max";
            }
            units "seconds";
            mandatory true;
            description
              "The number of seconds between two triggers
               generated by this periodic timing object.";
          }

and I have serious doubts that the design is anywhere close to be
practically usable. There need to be mechanisms to bind 'variables'
while matching conditions that and be reused in action definitions, it
is not scalable to have constants such as interface names in the
examples hard-coded in policy rules - this would lead to a huge number
of rules if you want to apply policy rules to all interfaces.

There is also a lack of extensibility, which is important for a core
policy language, and definitions like:

  identity function-type {
    description
      "Possible values are:
       plus, minus, mult, divide, remain.";
  }

without ever defining these operators feels strange. I also not
convinced that the resulting expressions are expressive enough for
real-world use.

This document is in a state that requires way too much effort to fix
in a WG process. I also doubt that expressing policies in such a
low-level format is usable in practice. Policy languages for network
management have a long history and this proposal seems to ignore the
lessons learned in the past.

/js

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929f2505-2aa2-4549-403a-08d7b535c293 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 19 Feb 2020 12:18:00.0137 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: f78e973e-5c0b-4ab8-bbd7-9887c95a8ebd X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: SNOfTf7MnkjVNxuvH0NRprgLrhKw/DVz7d/7In7qr81R60CKqzoR5NtwZfUhHh+E5PGuI+8+HranABxtgwhq/c6KJX65PDXx7jSbD8TJVcQ= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB6P190MB0519 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Adoption poll for draft-wwx-netmod-event-yang X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2020 12:18:05 -0000 Benoit, thanks for the clarification. I still believe that the approach taken is wrong. I doubt that network operators are interested in an assembly level approach for expressing threshold triggers. I am not sure xpath is the answer either. What was perhaps reasonable to try in the 90s (RMON, DISMAN work) may not be reasonably today anymore. The example starting on page 43 seems to be doing this every 10 minutes if exists(/ietf-interfaces:interfaces=3D'eth0') and if:interface[if:name=3D'eth0']/if:statistic/if:in-errors >=3D 100 then /if:interfaces/if:interface[if:name=3D'eth0']/if:enable =3D false but it requires 1.5 pages of XML to express this (and then the rule is not even meaningful since comparing an absolute value of a counter is not useful). If we are serious about policies, I believe we need to think about a language-based approach that can be read and understood and which does the things that are meaningful. Let me makeup some pseudo code based on the example that can work for all eth* interfaces and that gets the delta calculation of the counter right. if =3D /ietf-interfaces:interfaces/interface # json style namespace bindi= ng dt =3D 600 # 10 minutes in seconds every dt foreach name in $if/name: this =3D $if/[name=3D$name] if $name matches 'eth.*' and delta($this/statistic/in-errors, dt) >=3D 100 then $this/enable =3D false If people are serious about doing this kind of work, start by collecting real-world policies that need to be expressable, then identify the "language" mechanisms that are needed (loops over lists, bindings, variables and substitutions, pattern matching, ...) and then find a suitable representation. Yes, this is also something that people wanted SUPA to do and it did fail because it was already hard to collect real-world policies that help to understand what kind of mechanisms are needed and why. /js On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 11:45:39AM +0100, Benoit Claise wrote: > J=FCrgen, >=20 > To tell that I was skeptical about the SUPA work is just wrong. >=20 > I had great hopes for SUPA, as having consistent policy constructs in YAN= G > module was key. The big hope was that those SUPA constructs could be re-u= sed > in other YANG modules > =A0=A0=A0 example: routing, ACL, security ... > =A0=A0=A0 Regardless of the location: in a network element or in a > controller/orchestrator > =A0=A0=A0 Regardless of the function: network element and service YANG mo= dules > If successful, in the end, SUPA would have helped to reuse code. >=20 > Was I disappointed by the progress? Yes. The results were not there while > the rest of the world uses their YANG policy constructs. Timing was key s= o, > as AD, I had to pull the plug. > The world has moved on. So be it. > You can't infer skepticism from pragmatism. >=20 > Now, back to the draft. > From a network element point, I stressed the need to take have _simple _E= CA > rules directly routers. > Think about RMON event/alarm but for YANG. Think about removing the RMON > event/alarm restrictions that it works only for integer/counter. > If your point is that the draft is not perfect, fair point. > Should we solve attempt to solve that issue? Yes. >=20 > A confusion comes from the abstract that implies that this work is based = on > SUPA. >=20 > Abstract >=20 > RFC8328 defines a policy-based management framework that allows > definition of a data model to be used to represent high-level, > possibly network-wide policies. Policy discussed in RFC8328 are > classified into imperative policy and declarative policy, Event > Condition Action (ECA) policy is an typical example of imperative > policy. This document defines a YANG data model for the ECA policy > management. The ECA policy YANG provides the ability for the network > management function (within a network element) to control the > configuration and monitor state change and take simple and instant > action on the server when a trigger condition on the system state is > met. >=20 > Actually, in my mind, the abstract should be simplified to something such= as > (and yes, it could be improved) >=20 > Abstract >=20 > This document defines a YANG data model for the ECA policy > management. The ECA policy YANG provides the ability for the network > management function (within a network element) to control the > configuration and monitor state change and take simple and instant > action on the server when a trigger condition on the system state is > met. >=20 > And then, somewhere in the introduction, the following text should be > reused: >=20 > RFC8328 defines a policy-based management framework that allows > definition of a data model to be used to represent high-level, > possibly network-wide policies. Policy discussed in RFC8328 are > classified into imperative policy and declarative policy, Event > Condition Action (ECA) policy is an typical example of imperative > policy. >=20 >=20 > Regards, Benoit. > > On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 08:44:18AM -0800, Joel Jaeggli wrote: > > > This email begins a 2 week working group adoption poll for: > > >=20 > > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wwx-netmod-event-yang-06 > > >=20 > > > Please voice your support or objections before the poll completes on > > > March 3rd. > > I am against adoption of this draft. I wonder whether Benoit will > > explain his contributions to this document; Benoit was added as a > > co-author in -06 and he used to be rather sceptical about the SUPA > > work (and this is essentially part of the SUPA work resubmitted to the > > NETMOD WG). Despite this, the YANG definitions are clearly not up to > > the level one would expect for WG adoption. Many descriptions are > > just repetition of leaf names and there are obvious errors such as > >=20 > > leaf-list day-of-month { > > type uint8 { > > range "0..59"; > > } > > description > > "A set of days of the month at which this > > scheduling timing will trigger."; > > } > >=20 > > Despite the strange range, it is unclear how a number will in the > > range will identify a set. Note, this is an example, there are lots of > > them in the document. The examples provides are not convincing and > > technically wrong (how can 10m match > >=20 > > leaf interval { > > type uint32 { > > range "1..max"; > > } > > units "seconds"; > > mandatory true; > > description > > "The number of seconds between two triggers > > generated by this periodic timing object."; > > } > >=20 > > and I have serious doubts that the design is anywhere close to be > > practically usable. There need to be mechanisms to bind 'variables' > > while matching conditions that and be reused in action definitions, it > > is not scalable to have constants such as interface names in the > > examples hard-coded in policy rules - this would lead to a huge number > > of rules if you want to apply policy rules to all interfaces. > >=20 > > There is also a lack of extensibility, which is important for a core > > policy language, and definitions like: > >=20 > > identity function-type { > > description > > "Possible values are: > > plus, minus, mult, divide, remain."; > > } > >=20 > > without ever defining these operators feels strange. I also not > > convinced that the resulting expressions are expressive enough for > > real-world use. > >=20 > > This document is in a state that requires way too much effort to fix > > in a WG process. I also doubt that expressing policies in such a > > low-level format is usable in practice. Policy languages for network > > management have a long history and this proposal seems to ignore the > > lessons learned in the past. > >=20 > > /js > >=20 >=20 --=20 Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Wed Feb 19 06:16:35 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42076120127 for ; Wed, 19 Feb 2020 06:16:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.888 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.888 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bxTeFHy1k4YY for ; Wed, 19 Feb 2020 06:16:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yw1-xc42.google.com (mail-yw1-xc42.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::c42]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CBFF1120125 for ; Wed, 19 Feb 2020 06:16:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-yw1-xc42.google.com with SMTP id b186so162523ywc.1 for ; Wed, 19 Feb 2020 06:16:28 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=5Cnp70YKp7cVxoFTl2v4YreGDQ3BH+v+4LS8wsEm/Bw=; b=LSymyZmiJzfpJE7YE69XxcWZe1Nrx9mGlWuXXc5yE7oR0VGLm7iVj7XSZ/DlcE9VB+ YlfaLeTw8WFzHwLOjud33B6aJZ1yxpnvLifgclv68kWcfDRL1d69G+WXGT0zu/dpRV6K 4jdJMxHa3aCFw5P6ZwU6C6Wy0ePnE88Pm1EbqPb3c/7kushI6MGMXNDHjoSUFL253RHu qOc7gc3VdbIgucC67aXjpbM9XfuFCF6O+6lC5ofWKbNPTOExW8vY9W5orMqZXh/NJFCI yDedsSNwoWobItYnkEwcECLJBUgDbZETROd1vnuiQD69yCMQd0qRrTEiy5COwFAMpHjr 4tsw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=5Cnp70YKp7cVxoFTl2v4YreGDQ3BH+v+4LS8wsEm/Bw=; b=HMhiISebFPatqoxp5LzUtq0/vuHJAFeVNThnK7KcezfsX2SZQIowUFLsq37gcQ+Yok H4dVBhf1xlO5tdxc/QNKILUFW959QFoiopGCMSqeDeQpiihcCb3yedyHHWnjkvL4tghH 2WN5aeKppqMym60r9kbVbPoIuXoDw87YYDXM3jge54H1k0Om7jKTFNAaEr3EYU9ph84F Ee+8fAJ2Rr1/s4xQVsXPidBz/aO6zTleszMtk2jeqTIoxNidj2BtsD33lvkkh1QkQdGL OCJdi0at3a2RmrwBtznuMXLCZiM50A9VbekRkm+x01a5nB9YaOl53r6IsuFbp1OkhJXo Kh7w== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUj//X96FBFuJYR189GViA8L1UGfOJTWTeCPciBc484BesxaalA i7LH/9Q+TQ2zR8Z4wpUMW4uUf5UT22W0OrGAQP7HSg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxI7/wbEeFK/ef/Fm10AQQPsgkjQSRJBsc30vEvButHgo7HjyTqpMoOxQNH/SFVtX5cyNAxCy+XN93/Bw42gfo= X-Received: by 2002:a0d:f685:: with SMTP id g127mr22123112ywf.412.1582121787734; Wed, 19 Feb 2020 06:16:27 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200218231700.3tho6ngescf2k4zh@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <4b29cb4d-d252-b139-a46c-b5530f998a3b@cisco.com> <20200219121758.2ri4jtrhl6ytlkrw@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> In-Reply-To: <20200219121758.2ri4jtrhl6ytlkrw@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> From: Andy Bierman Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2020 06:16:16 -0800 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?B?U2Now7Zud8OkbGRlciwgSsO8cmdlbg==?= Cc: Benoit Claise , "netmod@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002653fe059eee6f47" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Adoption poll for draft-wwx-netmod-event-yang X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2020 14:16:33 -0000 --0000000000002653fe059eee6f47 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 4:18 AM Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder, J=C3=BCrgen < J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote: > Benoit, > > thanks for the clarification. > > I still believe that the approach taken is wrong. I doubt that network > operators are interested in an assembly level approach for expressing > threshold triggers. I am not sure xpath is the answer either. What was > perhaps reasonable to try in the 90s (RMON, DISMAN work) may not be > reasonably today anymore. > > I agree that "plain" XPath is not that useful. Your example of a counter delta really show why. > The example starting on page 43 seems to be doing this > > every 10 minutes > if exists(/ietf-interfaces:interfaces=3D'eth0') > and if:interface[if:name=3D'eth0']/if:statistic/if:in-errors >=3D 100 > then /if:interfaces/if:interface[if:name=3D'eth0']/if:enable =3D false > > but it requires 1.5 pages of XML to express this (and then the rule is > not even meaningful since comparing an absolute value of a counter is > not useful). > > Perhaps people think that by programming in YANG this somehow makes it universal and avoids picking a programming language. If we are serious about policies, I believe we need to think about a > language-based approach that can be read and understood and which does > the things that are meaningful. Let me makeup some pseudo code based > on the example that can work for all eth* interfaces and that gets the > delta calculation of the counter right. > > if =3D /ietf-interfaces:interfaces/interface # json style namespace bin= ding > dt =3D 600 # 10 minutes in seconds > every dt > foreach name in $if/name: > this =3D $if/[name=3D$name] > if $name matches 'eth.*' > and delta($this/statistic/in-errors, dt) >=3D 100 > then $this/enable =3D false > > I am hopeful that complex state like an array of counter rates could be maintained using policy variables. Then XPath could reference the PV in an expression that is easy to write. > If people are serious about doing this kind of work, start by > collecting real-world policies that need to be expressable, then > identify the "language" mechanisms that are needed (loops over lists, > bindings, variables and substitutions, pattern matching, ...) and then > find a suitable representation. Yes, this is also something that > people wanted SUPA to do and it did fail because it was already hard > to collect real-world policies that help to understand what kind of > mechanisms are needed and why. > > A real language is needed with local variables, functions, conditional branching and iteration, etc. Using YANG data nodes to "configure" policy logic seems like the most difficult way possible to provide this functionality. /js > Andy > > On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 11:45:39AM +0100, Benoit Claise wrote: > > J=C3=BCrgen, > > > > To tell that I was skeptical about the SUPA work is just wrong. > > > > I had great hopes for SUPA, as having consistent policy constructs in > YANG > > module was key. The big hope was that those SUPA constructs could be > re-used > > in other YANG modules > > example: routing, ACL, security ... > > Regardless of the location: in a network element or in a > > controller/orchestrator > > Regardless of the function: network element and service YANG module= s > > If successful, in the end, SUPA would have helped to reuse code. > > > > Was I disappointed by the progress? Yes. The results were not there whi= le > > the rest of the world uses their YANG policy constructs. Timing was key > so, > > as AD, I had to pull the plug. > > The world has moved on. So be it. > > You can't infer skepticism from pragmatism. > > > > Now, back to the draft. > > From a network element point, I stressed the need to take have _simple > _ECA > > rules directly routers. > > Think about RMON event/alarm but for YANG. Think about removing the RMO= N > > event/alarm restrictions that it works only for integer/counter. > > If your point is that the draft is not perfect, fair point. > > Should we solve attempt to solve that issue? Yes. > > > > A confusion comes from the abstract that implies that this work is base= d > on > > SUPA. > > > > Abstract > > > > RFC8328 defines a policy-based management framework that allows > > definition of a data model to be used to represent high-level, > > possibly network-wide policies. Policy discussed in RFC8328 are > > classified into imperative policy and declarative policy, Event > > Condition Action (ECA) policy is an typical example of imperative > > policy. This document defines a YANG data model for the ECA policy > > management. The ECA policy YANG provides the ability for the networ= k > > management function (within a network element) to control the > > configuration and monitor state change and take simple and instant > > action on the server when a trigger condition on the system state is > > met. > > > > Actually, in my mind, the abstract should be simplified to something > such as > > (and yes, it could be improved) > > > > Abstract > > > > This document defines a YANG data model for the ECA policy > > management. The ECA policy YANG provides the ability for the networ= k > > management function (within a network element) to control the > > configuration and monitor state change and take simple and instant > > action on the server when a trigger condition on the system state is > > met. > > > > And then, somewhere in the introduction, the following text should be > > reused: > > > > RFC8328 defines a policy-based management framework that allows > > definition of a data model to be used to represent high-level, > > possibly network-wide policies. Policy discussed in RFC8328 are > > classified into imperative policy and declarative policy, Event > > Condition Action (ECA) policy is an typical example of imperative > > policy. > > > > > > Regards, Benoit. > > > On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 08:44:18AM -0800, Joel Jaeggli wrote: > > > > This email begins a 2 week working group adoption poll for: > > > > > > > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wwx-netmod-event-yang-06 > > > > > > > > Please voice your support or objections before the poll completes o= n > > > > March 3rd. > > > I am against adoption of this draft. I wonder whether Benoit will > > > explain his contributions to this document; Benoit was added as a > > > co-author in -06 and he used to be rather sceptical about the SUPA > > > work (and this is essentially part of the SUPA work resubmitted to th= e > > > NETMOD WG). Despite this, the YANG definitions are clearly not up to > > > the level one would expect for WG adoption. Many descriptions are > > > just repetition of leaf names and there are obvious errors such as > > > > > > leaf-list day-of-month { > > > type uint8 { > > > range "0..59"; > > > } > > > description > > > "A set of days of the month at which this > > > scheduling timing will trigger."; > > > } > > > > > > Despite the strange range, it is unclear how a number will in the > > > range will identify a set. Note, this is an example, there are lots o= f > > > them in the document. The examples provides are not convincing and > > > technically wrong (how can 10m match > > > > > > leaf interval { > > > type uint32 { > > > range "1..max"; > > > } > > > units "seconds"; > > > mandatory true; > > > description > > > "The number of seconds between two triggers > > > generated by this periodic timing object."; > > > } > > > > > > and I have serious doubts that the design is anywhere close to be > > > practically usable. There need to be mechanisms to bind 'variables' > > > while matching conditions that and be reused in action definitions, i= t > > > is not scalable to have constants such as interface names in the > > > examples hard-coded in policy rules - this would lead to a huge numbe= r > > > of rules if you want to apply policy rules to all interfaces. > > > > > > There is also a lack of extensibility, which is important for a core > > > policy language, and definitions like: > > > > > > identity function-type { > > > description > > > "Possible values are: > > > plus, minus, mult, divide, remain."; > > > } > > > > > > without ever defining these operators feels strange. I also not > > > convinced that the resulting expressions are expressive enough for > > > real-world use. > > > > > > This document is in a state that requires way too much effort to fix > > > in a WG process. I also doubt that expressing policies in such a > > > low-level format is usable in practice. Policy languages for network > > > management have a long history and this proposal seems to ignore the > > > lessons learned in the past. > > > > > > /js > > > > > > > -- > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 > > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > --0000000000002653fe059eee6f47 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 4:18 AM Sch= =C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder, J=C3=BCrgen <J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
Benoit,

thanks for the clarification.

I still believe that the approach taken is wrong. I doubt that network
operators are interested in an assembly level approach for expressing
threshold triggers. I am not sure xpath is the answer either. What was
perhaps reasonable to try in the 90s (RMON, DISMAN work) may not be
reasonably today anymore.


I agree that "plain" XPath i= s not that useful.
Your example of a counter delta really show wh= y.
=C2=A0=C2=A0
The example starting on page 43 seems to be doing this

=C2=A0 every 10 minutes
=C2=A0 if=C2=A0 =C2=A0 exists(/ietf-interfaces:interfaces=3D'eth0')=
=C2=A0 and=C2=A0 =C2=A0if:interface[if:name=3D'eth0']/if:statistic/= if:in-errors >=3D 100
=C2=A0 then=C2=A0 /if:interfaces/if:interface[if:name=3D'eth0']/if:= enable =3D false

but it requires 1.5 pages of XML to express this (and then the rule is
not even meaningful since comparing an absolute value of a counter is
not useful).


Perhaps people think that by programmi= ng in YANG this somehow makes it
universal and avoids picking a p= rogramming language.

If we are serious about policies, I believe we need to think about a
language-based approach that can be read and understood and which does
the things that are meaningful. Let me makeup some pseudo code based
on the example that can work for all eth* interfaces and that gets the
delta calculation of the counter right.

=C2=A0 if =3D /ietf-interfaces:interfaces/interface # json style namespace = binding
=C2=A0 dt =3D 600 # 10 minutes in seconds
=C2=A0 every dt
=C2=A0 foreach name in $if/name:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 this =3D $if/[name=3D$name]
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 if=C2=A0 =C2=A0$name matches 'eth.*'
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 and=C2=A0 delta($this/statistic/in-errors, dt) >=3D 100 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 then $this/enable =3D false



I am hopeful that compl= ex state like an array of counter rates could be maintained
using= policy variables. Then XPath could reference the PV in an expression that = is easy to write.

=C2=A0
If people are serious about doing this kind of work, start by
collecting real-world policies that need to be expressable, then
identify the "language" mechanisms that are needed (loops over li= sts,
bindings, variables and substitutions, pattern matching, ...) and then
find a suitable representation. Yes, this is also something that
people wanted SUPA to do and it did fail because it was already hard
to collect real-world policies that help to understand what kind of
mechanisms are needed and why.


A real language is needed with local v= ariables, functions, conditional branching and iteration, etc.
Us= ing YANG data nodes to "configure" policy logic seems like the mo= st difficult way possible
to provide this functionality.



On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 11:45:39AM +0100, Benoit Claise wrote:
> J=C3=BCrgen,
>
> To tell that I was skeptical about the SUPA work is just wrong.
>
> I had great hopes for SUPA, as having consistent policy constructs in = YANG
> module was key. The big hope was that those SUPA constructs could be r= e-used
> in other YANG modules
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 example: routing, ACL, security ...
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Regardless of the location: in a network element or= in a
> controller/orchestrator
> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Regardless of the function: network element and ser= vice YANG modules
> If successful, in the end, SUPA would have helped to reuse code.
>
> Was I disappointed by the progress? Yes. The results were not there wh= ile
> the rest of the world uses their YANG policy constructs. Timing was ke= y so,
> as AD, I had to pull the plug.
> The world has moved on. So be it.
> You can't infer skepticism from pragmatism.
>
> Now, back to the draft.
> From a network element point, I stressed the need to take have _simple= _ECA
> rules directly routers.
> Think about RMON event/alarm but for YANG. Think about removing the RM= ON
> event/alarm restrictions that it works only for integer/counter.
> If your point is that the draft is not perfect, fair point.
> Should we solve attempt to solve that issue? Yes.
>
> A confusion comes from the abstract that implies that this work is bas= ed on
> SUPA.
>
> Abstract
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 RFC8328 defines a policy-based management framework that = allows
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 definition of a data model to be used to represent high-l= evel,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 possibly network-wide policies.=C2=A0 Policy discussed in= RFC8328 are
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 classified into imperative policy and declarative policy,= Event
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Condition Action (ECA) policy is an typical example of im= perative
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 policy.=C2=A0 This document defines a YANG data model for= the ECA policy
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 management.=C2=A0 The ECA policy YANG provides the abilit= y for the network
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 management function (within a network element) to control= the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 configuration and monitor state change and take simple an= d instant
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 action on the server when a trigger condition on the syst= em state is
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 met.
>
> Actually, in my mind, the abstract should be simplified to something s= uch as
> (and yes, it could be improved)
>
> Abstract
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 This document defines a YANG data model for the ECA polic= y
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 management.=C2=A0 The ECA policy YANG provides the abilit= y for the network
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 management function (within a network element) to control= the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 configuration and monitor state change and take simple an= d instant
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 action on the server when a trigger condition on the syst= em state is
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 met.
>
> And then, somewhere in the introduction, the following text should be<= br> > reused:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 RFC8328 defines a policy-based management framework that = allows
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 definition of a data model to be used to represent high-l= evel,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 possibly network-wide policies.=C2=A0 Policy discussed in= RFC8328 are
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 classified into imperative policy and declarative policy,= Event
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Condition Action (ECA) policy is an typical example of im= perative
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 policy.
>
>
> Regards, Benoit.
> > On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 08:44:18AM -0800, Joel Jaeggli wrote:
> > > This email begins a 2 week working group adoption poll for:<= br> > > >
> > > https://tools.ietf.org/html= /draft-wwx-netmod-event-yang-06
> > >
> > > Please voice your support or objections before the poll comp= letes on
> > > March 3rd.
> > I am against adoption of this draft. I wonder whether Benoit will=
> > explain his contributions to this document; Benoit was added as a=
> > co-author in -06 and he used to be rather sceptical about the SUP= A
> > work (and this is essentially part of the SUPA work resubmitted t= o the
> > NETMOD WG). Despite this, the YANG definitions are clearly not up= to
> > the level one would expect for WG adoption. Many descriptions are=
> > just repetition of leaf names and there are obvious errors such a= s
> >
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 leaf-list day-of-month {=
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 type uint8 {
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 range &quo= t;0..59";
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 }
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 description
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 "A se= t of days of the month at which this
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0sche= duling timing will trigger.";
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 }
> >
> > Despite the strange range, it is unclear how a number will in the=
> > range will identify a set. Note, this is an example, there are lo= ts of
> > them in the document. The examples provides are not convincing an= d
> > technically wrong (how can <interval>10m</interval> m= atch
> >
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 leaf interval {
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 type uint32 {
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 range &quo= t;1..max";
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 }
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 units "secon= ds";
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 mandatory true; > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 description
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 "The = number of seconds between two triggers
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0gene= rated by this periodic timing object.";
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 }
> >
> > and I have serious doubts that the design is anywhere close to be=
> > practically usable. There need to be mechanisms to bind 'vari= ables'
> > while matching conditions that and be reused in action definition= s, it
> > is not scalable to have constants such as interface names in the<= br> > > examples hard-coded in policy rules - this would lead to a huge n= umber
> > of rules if you want to apply policy rules to all interfaces.
> >
> > There is also a lack of extensibility, which is important for a c= ore
> > policy language, and definitions like:
> >
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 identity function-type {
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 description
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 "Possible values are:
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0plus, minus, mult, divide, remai= n.";
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 }
> >
> > without ever defining these operators feels strange. I also not > > convinced that the resulting expressions are expressive enough fo= r
> > real-world use.
> >
> > This document is in a state that requires way too much effort to = fix
> > in a WG process. I also doubt that expressing policies in such a<= br> > > low-level format is usable in practice. Policy languages for netw= ork
> > management have a long history and this proposal seems to ignore = the
> > lessons learned in the past.
> >
> > /js
> >
>

--
Juergen Schoenwaelder=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jacobs Univer= sity Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Campus Ring 1 | 28= 759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:=C2=A0 =C2=A0+49 421 200 3103=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://www.jacobs-university.de/>

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Berger Message-ID: <0b7918ef-4dc4-da25-1f42-83ae8a7af55b@labn.net> Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2020 11:36:50 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.3.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box313.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - labn.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 127.0.0.1 X-Source-L: Yes X-Exim-ID: 1j4SLG-002p4m-Rn X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: ([IPv6:::1]) [127.0.0.1]:11877 X-Source-Auth: lberger@labn.net X-Email-Count: 3 X-Source-Cap: bGFibm1vYmk7bGFibm1vYmk7Ym94MzEzLmJsdWVob3N0LmNvbQ== X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] FW: New Version Notification for draft-rwilton-netmod-yang-packages-03.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2020 16:36:58 -0000 Thanks Rob/Team! All,     We're planning to run the adoption poll on the versioning document set  once the next update of the selection draft is published -- so please feel free to get started reading/commenting on this document now. Lou On 2/19/2020 11:31 AM, Rob Wilton (rwilton) wrote: > FYI, I've posted an updated version of the YANG packages draft. This is the version that we plan to request a WG adoption call on, once we have an updated version of the version selection draft posted (hopefully ready soon). > > To highlight the main changes: > - Added a section to describe how YANG packages relate to datastore schema, along with guidance on how to structure package definitions. > - Unified the package definition on the server vs in YANG instance data documents. In particular, the on-server definition no longer reuses the module-sets from YANG library. This also simplifies the explanation of how these definitions relate since the same common grouping is reused. > - Move packages into its own top level container, rather than being under YANG library. > - Changed the binding between datastore schema in YANG library and packages. Before there was a 1:1 binding from datastore schema to package definition. It has been changed to a 1:N binding, i.e. a datastore scheme is represented by a union of compatible packages. This aligns with how the relationship is defined in the version selection draft. > > Thanks, > Rob > > > -----Original Message----- > From: internet-drafts@ietf.org > Sent: 19 February 2020 16:15 > To: Jason Sterne ; Reshad Rahman (rrahman) ; Rob Wilton (rwilton) ; Joe Clarke (jclarke) ; Wu Bo ; Bo Wu > Subject: New Version Notification for draft-rwilton-netmod-yang-packages-03.txt > > > A new version of I-D, draft-rwilton-netmod-yang-packages-03.txt > has been successfully submitted by Robert Wilton and posted to the IETF repository. > > Name: draft-rwilton-netmod-yang-packages > Revision: 03 > Title: YANG Packages > Document date: 2020-02-19 > Group: Individual Submission > Pages: 56 > URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-rwilton-netmod-yang-packages-03.txt > Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-rwilton-netmod-yang-packages/ > Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-rwilton-netmod-yang-packages-03 > Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-rwilton-netmod-yang-packages > Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-rwilton-netmod-yang-packages-03 > > Abstract: > This document defines YANG packages, a versioned organizational > structure holding a set of related YANG modules, that collectively > define a YANG schema. It describes how packages: are represented on > a server, can be defined in offline YANG instance data documents, and > can be used to define the schema associated with YANG instance data > documents. > > > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > > The IETF Secretariat > > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > From nobody Wed Feb 19 08:57:41 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B228712022D; Wed, 19 Feb 2020 08:57:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.435 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.435 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, RCVD_IN_SBL_CSS=3.335, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Some comments... - In the introduction, you may want to mention that applied config often differs from config because applied config includes stuff that was learned or generated by the system (e.g., IP addresses obtained via DHCP or generated by the kernel itself). This applies to systems that otherwise implement NC or RC in a synchronous update manner, i.e., a difference between and is for many operational systems likely the normal situation and not an exceptional one. - I do not understand this: [...] (The filter dow not contain expressions that would match values data nodes, as this is not required by most use cases and would complicate the scheme, from implementation to dealing with race conditions.) Despite the wording nits, I fail to understand the race condition argument. It seems the filters are the same as we have them in other places and this is good and a strong argument by itself. Reusing concepts is a good thing. Just state that and remove potentially hand-waving arguments about race conditions created by filtering on values. (And subtree filters can filter out certain interfaces by matching the element.) - I think you should import the term 'schema node' (and if necessary also other terms) from RFC 7950. Perhaps merge section 2+3 into a section Terminology that has the RFC2119 blurb and states that this specification uses the terminology defined in RFC 7950 and RFC 8342. - Given that the applied configuration includes learned and system provided data, it may make a lot of sense to filter on origin so that learned or system generated config is not part of the comparison. I think this is really missing. Of course, one can filter the result to get rid of all 'learned' items but the whole point of the compare RPC is to avoid long responses that are not needed. The get-data operation defined in RFC 8526 has an origin filter that may be reused. (Perhaps it makes sense to align the parameters with RFC 8526 get-data even further.) - Why do we need the 'no-matches' leaf? Why not simply return an empty 'differences' container? - Nit OLD RPC request to compare (target of the comparison): NEW RPC request to compare (source of the comparison) with (target of the comparison): - I have not validated the examples. - Section 7 talks about rejecting frequent requests. It may be useful to specify which error response is returned in this case so that coders implement the same behavior. - Perhaps the document should spell out how compare interacts with NACM. I kind of assume that NACM rules are applied before the content is compared, i.e., data that is not accessible won't get compared. Well, whatever the correct behavior is, I think this deserves to be spelled out. - I would probably have picked in ietf-interfaces example to avoid a reference to a work in progress but this does not really matter much. /js On Mon, Feb 17, 2020 at 11:42:01AM -0800, Joel Jaeggli wrote: > Greetings, >=20 > This was supposed to get processed shortly after IETF 106, however I lost= track of it. We are therefore running a 2 week WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-n= mda-diff-03. >=20 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff/ >=20 > the 02 - 03 diff is available here: >=20 > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3Ddraft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff-02&url2= =3Ddraft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff-03 >=20 > Please send email to the list indicating your support or concerns. >=20 > This WGLC will conclude Monday March 2nd. >=20 >=20 > Thank you, > NETMOD WG Chairs >=20 > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod --=20 Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Wed Feb 19 09:03:01 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21126120071 for ; Wed, 19 Feb 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ESMTP id EADB31209B4; Thu, 20 Feb 2020 08:59:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YTT_1K_bKdjp; Thu, 20 Feb 2020 08:59:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.tail-f.com (mail.tail-f.com [46.21.102.45]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 879A51209AA; Thu, 20 Feb 2020 08:59:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (unknown [173.38.220.37]) by mail.tail-f.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2367F1B03C80; Thu, 20 Feb 2020 17:59:14 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2020 17:58:34 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <20200220.175834.640820639957432794.mbj@tail-f.com> To: joelja@bogus.com Cc: netmod@ietf.org, netmod-chairs@ietf.org From: Martin Bjorklund In-Reply-To: <687b863b-4d54-db67-e3af-b08588c85360@bogus.com> References: <687b863b-4d54-db67-e3af-b08588c85360@bogus.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 6.8 on Emacs 25.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] WGLC - Comparison of NMDA datastores - draft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff-03 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2020 16:59:20 -0000 Hi, Joel Jaeggli wrote: > Greetings, > > This was supposed to get processed shortly after IETF 106, however I lost track of it. We are therefore running a 2 week WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff-03. > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff/ > > the 02 - 03 diff is available here: > > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=draft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff-02&url2=draft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff-03 > > Please send email to the list indicating your support or concerns. I have reviewed draft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff-03 and have some comments. o Section 4 (The filter dow not contain expressions that would match values data nodes, as this is not required by most use cases and would complicate the scheme, from implementation to dealing with race conditions.) I don't think it is a good idea to reject filters that match values. For example, suppose I want to compare the config for a specific interface. I could do /interfaces/interfac[name='eth0'], or a subtree filter. Why should this not be possible? Besides, the mechanism of rejecting such filters is not defined. The only text we have is this sentence within parentheses. o leaf all in the YANG module s/Specifically, if one/For example, if one/ o leaf xpath-filter The description needs to specify the XPath context, see RFC 6991. o container differences It is not clear what the YANG patch records reflect. Is it the patches that are required to go from "source" to "target"? Or the other way around? o anydata source-value This description needs work. The current text isn't correct ('value' is not present when the operation is 'move'). The description should explain what this is supposed to contain. o Section 6 The example is confusing. It seems the diff is the patches required to go from target to source. And the source-value contains the origin present in the target, is that correct? And the value contains an origin that isn't present in neither the source nor the target. /martin From nobody Mon Feb 24 02:54:57 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8199E3A0747 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 02:54:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id v5HluV33gn5e for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 02:54:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with 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([169.254.1.89]) by dggeml405-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.3.17.49]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 18:54:13 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: =?utf-8?B?U2Now7Zud8OkbGRlciwgSsO8cmdlbg==?= , Benoit Claise CC: "netmod@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [netmod] Adoption poll for draft-wwx-netmod-event-yang Thread-Index: AdXq/X9Nzpg1AfSxQbu77+4fPq+GnA== Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 10:54:13 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.138.33.123] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Adoption poll for draft-wwx-netmod-event-yang X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 10:54:55 -0000 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Xufeng Liu Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 10:26:05 -0500 Message-ID: To: Joel Jaeggli Cc: draft-wwx-netmod-event-yang@ietf.org, NETMOD WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000056650059f53feee" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] IPR poll on draft-wwx-netmod-event-yang X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 15:34:17 -0000 --000000000000056650059f53feee Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft. Thanks, - Xufeng On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 11:45 AM Joel Jaeggli wrote: > Authors, Contributors, WG, > > As part of preparation for WG Adoption > > Are you aware of any IPR that applies to drafts identified above? > > Please state either: > > "No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft" > or > "Yes, I'm aware of IPR that applies to this draft" > > If so, has this IPR been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules > (see RFCs 3669, 5378 and 8179 for more details)? > > If yes to the above, please state either: > > "Yes, the IPR has been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules" > or > "No, the IPR has not been disclosed" > > If you answer no, please provide any additional details you think > appropriate. > > If you are listed as a document author or contributor please answer the > above by responding to this email regardless of whether or not you are > aware of any relevant IPR. This document will not advance to the next > stage until a response has been received from each author and listed > contributor. NOTE: THIS APPLIES TO ALL OF YOU LISTED IN THIS MESSAGE'S > TO LINES. > > If you are on the WG email list or attend WG meetings but are not listed > as an author or contributor, we remind you of your obligations under > the IETF IPR rules which encourages you to notify the IETF if you are > aware of IPR of others on an IETF contribution, or to refrain from > participating in any contribution or discussion related to your > undisclosed IPR. For more information, please see the RFCs listed above > and > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/group/iesg/trac/wiki/IntellectualProperty. > > Thank you, > NetMod WG Chairs > > PS Please include all listed in the headers of this message in your > response. > > --000000000000056650059f53feee Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this= draft.

Thanks,
- Xufeng
=
On Tue= , Feb 18, 2020 at 11:45 AM Joel Jaeggli <joelja@bogus.com> wrote:
Authors, Contributors, WG,

As part of preparation for WG Adoption

Are you aware of any IPR that applies to drafts identified above?

Please state either:

"No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft"
or
"Yes, I'm aware of IPR that applies to this draft"

If so, has this IPR been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules
(see RFCs 3669, 5378 and 8179 for more details)?

If yes to the above, please state either:

"Yes, the IPR has been disclosed in compliance with IETF IPR rules&quo= t;
or
"No, the IPR has not been disclosed"

If you answer no, please provide any additional details you think
appropriate.

If you are listed as a document author or contributor please answer the
above by responding to this email regardless of whether or not you are
aware of any relevant IPR. This document will not advance to the next
stage until a response has been received from each author and listed
contributor. NOTE: THIS APPLIES TO ALL OF YOU LISTED IN THIS MESSAGE'S<= br> TO LINES.

If you are on the WG email list or attend WG meetings but are not listed as an author or contributor, we remind you of your obligations under
the IETF IPR rules which encourages you to notify the IETF if you are
aware of IPR of others on an IETF contribution, or to refrain from
participating in any contribution or discussion related to your
undisclosed IPR. For more information, please see the RFCs listed above
and
http://trac.tools.ietf.org/group= /iesg/trac/wiki/IntellectualProperty.

Thank you,
NetMod WG Chairs

PS Please include all listed in the headers of this message in your
response.

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Mon, 24 Feb 2020 16:04:43 +0000 From: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" To: "draft-ietf-netmod-factory-default@ietf.org" , "netmod@ietf.org" CC: Warren Kumari Thread-Topic: [Incoming] AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-factory-default-12 Thread-Index: AdXrK91DLlBAy7r2SwW5K4lCI86Kqg== Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 16:04:43 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=rwilton@cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [173.38.220.62] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: b92182bf-f577-4013-9af8-08d7b9434355 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: MN2PR11MB4207: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; x-forefront-prvs: 032334F434 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10009020)(4636009)(396003)(39860400002)(366004)(136003)(346002)(376002)(189003)(199004)(110136005)(316002)(6506007)(5660300002)(76116006)(66946007)(478600001)(52536014)(55016002)(9686003)(86362001)(2906002)(4326008)(81166006)(81156014)(8676002)(8936002)(71200400001)(33656002)(64756008)(66446008)(66476007)(66556008)(186003)(7696005)(26005)(9326002); 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Thanks for writing this document. I found this document to be well written= , clear and understandable. However, there are a few issues which I think = could be addressed before kicking off IETF LC. I have the following comments: 1. Title: The title of the document may be clearer as: "A YANG Data Mode= l for Factory Default Settings". 1. Abstract: I would suggest condensing the abstract, which is currently= very similar to the introduction, perhaps to the following text: "This document defines a YANG data model to allow clients to reset a server back to its factory default condition. It also defines a "factory-default" datastore to allow clients to read the factory default configuration for the device. The YANG data model in this document conforms to the Network Management Datastore Architecture (NMDA) defined in RFC 8342. " 1. Introduction: It might be useful to include instructions for the RFC = editor at the beginning of the introduction to summarize what actions are r= equired before publication. 1. Terminology (section 1.1). For the definition of the factory-defaul= t datastore, I would add the sentence "This datastore is referred to as "." 1. Terminology (section 1.1). I propose that you also important the ter= m "datastore schema" from RFC 8342, for use with a proposed update to secti= on 3. 1. Section 2, third bullet. It might be better to replace "ephemeral da= tastores" with "dynamic configuration datastores", since that is the refere= nce is RFC 8342. 1. Section 3, first paragraph. I suggest removing the word minimal, i.e= . "preconfigured minimal initial configuration" =3D> "preconfigured initial= configuration", since it isn't required that the factory default configura= tion is minimal, although it would normally be so. 1. Section 3. I think that the document must define what the schema is f= or the "factory-default". Hence, rather than "YANG modules: all", perhaps = "YANG modules: The factory default datastore schema MUST either be the same= as the conventional configuration datastores, or a subset of the datastore= schema for the conventional configuration datastores." 1. Section 3. Probably add the following sentence to the end of section = 3: "If supported, the factory-default datastore MUST be included in the lis= t of datastores in YANG library [RFC 8525]." This would probably also add = RFC 8525 as a normative reference. 1. YANG module, rpc factory-reset description. I suggest changing the d= escription to "The server resets all datastores to their factory default content and any = non-volatile storage back to factory condition, deleting all dynamically ge= nerated files, including those containing keys, certificates, logs, and oth= er temporary files. Depending on the factory default configuration, after being reset, the devi= ce may become unreachable on the network." 1. I think that the security section needs to explicitly mention that no= n volatile storage is expected to be wiped clean and reset back to the fact= ory default state, but that there is no guarantee that the data is wiped to= any particular data cleansing particular standard, and the owner of the de= vice MUST NOT rely on any temporary data (e.g., including private keys) bei= ng unrecoverable after the factory-reset RPC has been invoked. Nits: Section 2: "are all reset to" =3D> "are reset to" "datastores(e.g. " =3D> "datastores (e.g., " Section 3: "with =3D> "with the ". Section 7: ", Susan Hares to review this draft and provide important input = to this document" =3D> ", and Susan Hares for reviewing this document and p= roviding important input". Regards, Rob --_000_MN2PR11MB43660B9F19E8794C5A8B7144B5EC0MN2PR11MB4366namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,

 

Thanks for writing this document.  I found this= document to be well written, clear and understandable.  However, ther= e are a few issues which I think could be addressed before kicking off IETF= LC.

 

I have the following comments:

 

  1. Title: The title of the document may be clearer as: “A YANG Data Model for Factory Default Settings”.

 

  1. Abstract: I would suggest condensing the abstract, which is currently= very similar to the introduction, perhaps to the following text:

 

 “This document defines a YANG data =
model to allow clients to
  reset a server back to its factory =
default condition.  It
  also defines a “factory-defau=
lt” datastore to allow clients
  to read the factory default configu=
ration for the device.
 
  The YANG data model in this documen=
t conforms to the Network
  Management Datastore Architecture (=
NMDA) defined in RFC 8342.

   ”

 

  1. Introduction: It might be useful to include instructions for the RFC = editor at the beginning of the introduction to summarize what actions are r= equired before publication.

 

  1. Terminology (section 1.1).   For the definition of the fact= ory-default datastore, I would add the sentence “This datastore is referred to as "<factory-default>.”

 

  1. Terminology (section 1.1).  I propose that you also important th= e term “datastore schema” from RFC 8342, for use with a propose= d update to section 3.

 

  1. Section 2, third bullet.  It might be better to replace “<= span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:bl= ack;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">ephemeral datastores” with “dynamic configuration datasto= res”, since that is the reference is RFC 8342.
    2. =

 

  1. Section 3, first paragraph.  I suggest removing the word minimal= , i.e. “preconfigured minimal initial configuration” =3D> “preconfigured initial configuration”, since = it isn’t required that the factory default configuration is minimal, although it would normally be so.

 

  1. Section 3. I think that the document must define what the schema is f= or the “factory-default”.  Hence, rather than “YANG modules: all”, perhaps “ 

    1. Section 3. Probably add the following sentence to the end of section = 3: “If supported, the factory-default datastore MUST be included in the list of datastores i= n YANG library [RFC 8525].”  This would probably also add= RFC 8525 as a normative reference.

     

    1. YANG module, rpc factory-reset description.  I suggest changing = the description to

     

    “The s= erver resets all datastores to their factory default content and any non-vo= latile storage back to factory condition, deleting all dynamically generated files, including those containing keys, certificates= , logs, and other temporary files.

     <= /o:p>

    Depending on= the factory default configuration, after being reset, the device may becom= e unreachable on the network.”

     

    1. I think that the security section needs to explicitly mention that no= n volatile storage is expected to be wiped clean and reset back to the fact= ory default state, but that there is no guarantee that the data is wiped to any particular data cleansing parti= cular standard, and the owner of the device MUST NOT rely on any temporary = data (e.g., including private keys) being unrecoverable after the factory-r= eset RPC has been invoked.

     

     

    Nits:

     

    Section 2:

    “are all reset to” =3D> “are re= set to”

    “datastores(e.g. “ =3D> “datast= ores (e.g., “

     

    Section 3:

    “with <operational> =3D> “with = the <operational>”.

     

    Section 7: “, Susan Hares to review this draft= and provide important input to this document” =3D> “, and S= usan Hares for reviewing this document and providing important input”= .

     

    Regards,

    Rob

     

--_000_MN2PR11MB43660B9F19E8794C5A8B7144B5EC0MN2PR11MB4366namp_-- From nobody Mon Feb 24 10:27:07 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A2F83A10B0 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 10:27:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.097 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id afGOzMXET2Ka for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 10:27:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-xd43.google.com (mail-io1-xd43.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d43]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 94BEC3A10A8 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 10:27:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-xd43.google.com with SMTP id m25so11265772ioo.8 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 10:27:02 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=vdFGsAAIPwM+Xc+o2DzkOqL59Jcf1b4ODJJUnS4vNyg=; b=o3HW3tUbrUVk4MWNkqkcxUnZV/MUO59dnJtjH7FjjkmE0ZfJRygBcSAID0264ovp2I C+Oa0k5OMW4cES/ofASjmv0Vfs8SlgxlvTr0O8fnLt2fQtcEfXLNp7IgUmGJyeqJ9FcZ 7vIQv+epYQtQY7O34Layc1Rinp4h3EJFv1WWCWPQ9q116oN9VGDn13j0e9+onEcBoMvv tBqcUaV6Z3YHIQZoMDhDNAMetnPy6VnQGDV+22AyNtekC7625q0I4hTWrlC/QyOUYrLA 7tGvvAgOQYhYiI3Pcgv+cdVqytIeMSpNJgjTtDHPFIsvLC4xCzYP8EAGb2Ss4nFgL9gT fqIA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=vdFGsAAIPwM+Xc+o2DzkOqL59Jcf1b4ODJJUnS4vNyg=; b=XxjusCKbY3IYUVwuIwoZ9eeC0bl961WFVTQz0i4cdBSdLUhP5zAGRskD4JXLuZ9YX0 a5RZk/38SiSAqwH832fqrVMv1ZeCgxwXKep612/1kNmoF/+8VII2l1PNq3VHirqjKeYM db0d/PrU2ZlCnWjyaZYq/Kh9eeEpJ1pQnDY0u+ua7VLNjDl1uSE683pLpZ+JIdbGfqLc 2h5JS7IxV8qU2dogNGJecTpU8NUzLRhz0hyjX2lHPv4o0nTUaC+kaFyEAlZrG/E2nz1A Fmiq5zVpQWDPw89jslueMnEoEu9NGNMRYfK+vMFs+TrTZMkdW1D2Oi01+QDh5BnxRrr+ dU8Q== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAX/CDDtrUgclqhLO+Z2qPZ2MNguuwKXvbWfMBrwKlbRDu0fCOvF 9lBe0WfVWIjNEBaeXEY5zIODOtWq6nSYSZw9znE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqx7onHZD3pLBy1XvIeNjgXVM38Vs7KVSp0dIUjvfy0QBXHCy4Y20+NMtKWUopJlQ95T78Me01Pfj4rflSsXnb4= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:8a10:: with SMTP id w16mr50704586iod.216.1582568821652; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 10:27:01 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200218231700.3tho6ngescf2k4zh@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <4b29cb4d-d252-b139-a46c-b5530f998a3b@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: From: Xufeng Liu Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 13:26:50 -0500 Message-ID: To: "King, Daniel" Cc: Benoit Claise , =?UTF-8?B?U2Now7Zud8OkbGRlciwgSsO8cmdlbg==?= , Joel Jaeggli , "netmod@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007281a4059f5684b6" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Adoption poll for draft-wwx-netmod-event-yang X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 18:27:06 -0000 --0000000000007281a4059f5684b6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Agree with Dan. The use case is valid, though the errors in the data model can be fixed. Support. Thanks, - Xufeng On Wed, Feb 19, 2020 at 6:44 AM King, Daniel wrote= : > Hi All, > > > > Expressing, and delegating base imperative policy to network nodes > (regardless if it=E2=80=99s a switch, router, network function, or indeed > =E2=80=9Ccontroller=E2=80=9D) is a critical step for facilitating network= automation. I > support the I-D and would like to see the WG adopt the work. Yes, the I-D > needs to be developed further and this would be better managed if the > effort was owned by the WG. > > > > I do agree somewhat with J=C3=BCrgen that past experiences have shown a l= ack > of willingness between vendors for expressing policy (imperative or > otherwise). Major vendors have tended to implement their own policy > language, or specific purpose (security, role management, et al.) languag= e > that has been based on standards (formal) or open-source project (de > facto). The fact that the I-D author and contributor list already has a > good mix of implementors demonstrates a willingness to develop an > interoperable network-wide solution. > > > > BR, Dan. > > > > *From:* netmod *On Behalf Of *Benoit Claise > *Sent:* 19 February 2020 10:46 > *To:* Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder, J=C3=BCrgen ; Joel > Jaeggli > *Cc:* netmod@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [netmod] Adoption poll for draft-wwx-netmod-event-yang > > > > J=C3=BCrgen, > > To tell that I was skeptical about the SUPA work is just wrong. > > I had great hopes for SUPA, as having consistent policy constructs in YAN= G > module was key. The big hope was that those SUPA constructs could be > re-used in other YANG modules > example: routing, ACL, security ... > Regardless of the location: in a network element or in a > controller/orchestrator > Regardless of the function: network element and service YANG modules > If successful, in the end, SUPA would have helped to reuse code. > > Was I disappointed by the progress? Yes. The results were not there while > the rest of the world uses their YANG policy constructs. Timing was key s= o, > as AD, I had to pull the plug. > The world has moved on. So be it. > You can't infer skepticism from pragmatism. > > Now, back to the draft. > From a network element point, I stressed the need to take have *simple *E= CA > rules directly routers. > Think about RMON event/alarm but for YANG. Think about removing the RMON > event/alarm restrictions that it works only for integer/counter. > If your point is that the draft is not perfect, fair point. > Should we solve attempt to solve that issue? Yes. > > A confusion comes from the abstract that implies that this work is based > on SUPA. > > Abstract > > > > RFC8328 defines a policy-based management framework that allows > > definition of a data model to be used to represent high-level, > > possibly network-wide policies. Policy discussed in RFC8328 are > > classified into imperative policy and declarative policy, Event > > Condition Action (ECA) policy is an typical example of imperative > > policy. This document defines a YANG data model for the ECA policy > > management. The ECA policy YANG provides the ability for the network > > management function (within a network element) to control the > > configuration and monitor state change and take simple and instant > > action on the server when a trigger condition on the system state is > > met. > > Actually, in my mind, the abstract should be simplified to something such > as (and yes, it could be improved) > > Abstract > > > > This document defines a YANG data model for the ECA policy > > management. The ECA policy YANG provides the ability for the network > > management function (within a network element) to control the > > configuration and monitor state change and take simple and instant > > action on the server when a trigger condition on the system state is > > met. > > And then, somewhere in the introduction, the following text should be > reused: > > RFC8328 defines a policy-based management framework that allows > > definition of a data model to be used to represent high-level, > > possibly network-wide policies. Policy discussed in RFC8328 are > > classified into imperative policy and declarative policy, Event > > Condition Action (ECA) policy is an typical example of imperative > > policy. > > > Regards, Benoit. > > On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 08:44:18AM -0800, Joel Jaeggli wrote: > > This email begins a 2 week working group adoption poll for: > > > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wwx-netmod-event-yang-06 > > > > Please voice your support or objections before the poll completes on > > March 3rd. > > > > I am against adoption of this draft. I wonder whether Benoit will > > explain his contributions to this document; Benoit was added as a > > co-author in -06 and he used to be rather sceptical about the SUPA > > work (and this is essentially part of the SUPA work resubmitted to the > > NETMOD WG). Despite this, the YANG definitions are clearly not up to > > the level one would expect for WG adoption. Many descriptions are > > just repetition of leaf names and there are obvious errors such as > > > > leaf-list day-of-month { > > type uint8 { > > range "0..59"; > > } > > description > > "A set of days of the month at which this > > scheduling timing will trigger."; > > } > > > > Despite the strange range, it is unclear how a number will in the > > range will identify a set. Note, this is an example, there are lots of > > them in the document. The examples provides are not convincing and > > technically wrong (how can 10m match > > > > leaf interval { > > type uint32 { > > range "1..max"; > > } > > units "seconds"; > > mandatory true; > > description > > "The number of seconds between two triggers > > generated by this periodic timing object."; > > } > > > > and I have serious doubts that the design is anywhere close to be > > practically usable. There need to be mechanisms to bind 'variables' > > while matching conditions that and be reused in action definitions, it > > is not scalable to have constants such as interface names in the > > examples hard-coded in policy rules - this would lead to a huge number > > of rules if you want to apply policy rules to all interfaces. > > > > There is also a lack of extensibility, which is important for a core > > policy language, and definitions like: > > > > identity function-type { > > description > > "Possible values are: > > plus, minus, mult, divide, remain."; > > } > > > > without ever defining these operators feels strange. I also not > > convinced that the resulting expressions are expressive enough for > > real-world use. > > > > This document is in a state that requires way too much effort to fix > > in a WG process. I also doubt that expressing policies in such a > > low-level format is usable in practice. Policy languages for network > > management have a long history and this proposal seems to ignore the > > lessons learned in the past. > > > > /js > > > > > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > --0000000000007281a4059f5684b6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Agree with Dan. The use case is valid, though the err= ors in the data model can be fixed.
Support.
Thanks,
- Xufeng

Hi All,

=C2=A0

Expressing, and delegating base imperative pol= icy to network nodes (regardless if it=E2=80=99s a switch, router, network = function, or indeed =E2=80=9Ccontroller=E2=80=9D) is a critical step for fa= cilitating network automation. I support the I-D and would like to see the WG adopt the work. Yes, the I-= D needs to be developed further and this would be better managed if the eff= ort was owned by the WG.

=C2=A0

I do agree somewhat with J=C3=BCrgen that past experiences have shown a = lack of willingness between vendors for expressing policy (imperative or ot= herwise). Major vendors have tended to implement their own policy language,= or specific purpose (security, role management, et al.) language that has been based on standards (formal) or open-source = project (de facto). The fact that the I-D author and contributor list alrea= dy has a good mix of implementors demonstrates a willingness to develop an = interoperable network-wide solution. =C2=A0

=C2=A0

BR, Dan.

=C2=A0

From: netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Benoit Claise
Sent: 19 February 2020 10:46
To: Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder, J=C3=BCrgen <J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-uni= versity.de>; Joel Jaeggli <joelja@bogus.com>
Cc: netmod@ietf= .org
Subject: Re: [netmod] Adoption poll for draft-wwx-netmod-event-yang<= u>

=C2=A0

J=C3=BCrgen,

To tell that I was skeptical about the SUPA work is just wrong.

I had great hopes for SUPA, as having consistent policy constructs in YANG = module was key. The big hope was that those SUPA constructs could be re-use= d in other YANG modules
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 example: routing, ACL, security ...
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Regardless of the location: in a network element or in a= controller/orchestrator
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Regardless of the function: network element and service = YANG modules
If successful, in the end, SUPA would have helped to reuse code.
=C2=A0
Was I disappointed by the progress? Yes. The results were not there while t= he rest of the world uses their YANG policy constructs. Timing was key so, = as AD, I had to pull the plug.
The world has moved on. So be it.
You can't infer skepticism from pragmatism.

Now, back to the draft.
>From a network element point, I stressed the need to take have simple ECA rules directly routers.
Think about RMON event/alarm but for YANG. Think about removing the RMON ev= ent/alarm restrictions that it works only for integer/counter.
If your point is that the draft is not perfect, fair point.
Should we solve attempt to solve that issue? Yes.

A confusion comes from the abstract that implies that this work is based on= SUPA.

Abstract
=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0 RFC8328 defines a policy-based management framework that =
allows
=C2=A0=C2=A0 definition of a data model to be used to represent high-l=
evel,
=C2=A0=C2=A0 possibly network-wide policies.=C2=A0 Policy discussed in=
 RFC8328 are
=C2=A0=C2=A0 classified into imperative policy and declarative policy,=
 Event
=C2=A0=C2=A0 Condition Action (ECA) policy is an typical example of im=
perative
=C2=A0=C2=A0 policy.=C2=A0 This document defines a YANG data model for=
 the ECA policy
=C2=A0=C2=A0 management.=C2=A0 The ECA policy YANG provides the abilit=
y for the network
=C2=A0=C2=A0 management function (within a network element) to control=
 the
=C2=A0=C2=A0 configuration and monitor state change and take simple an=
d instant
=C2=A0=C2=A0 action on the server when a trigger condition on the syst=
em state is
=C2=A0=C2=A0 met.

Actually, in my mind, the abstract should be simplif= ied to something such as (and yes, it could be improved)

Abstract
=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0This document defines a YANG data model for the ECA polic=
y
=C2=A0=C2=A0 management.=C2=A0 The ECA policy YANG provides the abilit=
y for the network
=C2=A0=C2=A0 management function (within a network element) to control=
 the
=C2=A0=C2=A0 configuration and monitor state change and take simple an=
d instant
=C2=A0=C2=A0 action on the server when a trigger condition on the syst=
em state is
=C2=A0=C2=A0 met.

And then, somewhere in the introduction, the followi= ng text should be reused: 

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0RFC8328 defines a policy-based management framework =
that allows
=C2=A0=C2=A0 definition of a data model to be used to represent high-l=
evel,
=C2=A0=C2=A0 possibly network-wide policies.=C2=A0 Policy discussed in=
 RFC8328 are
=C2=A0=C2=A0 classified into imperative policy and declarative policy,=
 Event
=C2=A0=C2=A0 Condition Action (ECA) policy is an typical example of im=
perative
=C2=A0 =C2=A0policy.


Regards, Benoit.

On Tue, Feb 18, 2020 at 08:44:18AM -0800, Joel Jaeggli wrote:
This email begins a 2 week working group adoption poll for:<=
/u>
=C2=A0
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wwx-netmod-event-yang-=
06
=C2=A0
Please voice your support or objections before the poll completes on
March 3rd.
=C2=A0
I am against adoption of this draft. I wonder whether Benoit will
explain his contributions to this document; Benoit was added as a
co-author in -06 and he used to be rather sceptical about the SUPA<=
/u>
work (and this is essentially part of the SUPA work resubmitted to the=

NETMOD WG). Despite this, the YANG definitions are clearly not up to
the level one would expect for WG adoption. Many descriptions are
just repetition of leaf names and there are obvious errors such as<=
/u>
=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 leaf-list day-o=
f-month {
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 typ=
e uint8 {
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 range "0..59";
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 des=
cription
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 "A set of days of the month at which this

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 scheduling timing will trigger.";


=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }=



=C2=A0


Despite the strange range, it is unclear how a number will in the


range will identify a set. Note, this is an example, there are lots of=



them in the document. The examples provides are not convincing and<=
/u>


technically wrong (how can <interval>10m</interval> match<=
u>


=C2=A0


=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 leaf interval {=



=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 typ=
e uint32 {


=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 range "1..max";


=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }


=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 uni=
ts "seconds";


=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0man=
datory true;


=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 des=
cription


=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 "The number of seconds between two triggers

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 generated by this periodic timing object.";<=
/u>


=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }=



=C2=A0


and I have serious doubts that the design is anywhere close to be


practically usable. There need to be mechanisms to bind 'variables=
'


while matching conditions that and be reused in action definitions, it=



is not scalable to have constants such as interface names in the


examples hard-coded in policy rules - this would lead to a huge number=



of rules if you want to apply policy rules to all interfaces.


=C2=A0


There is also a lack of extensibility, which is important for a core


policy language, and definitions like:


=C2=A0


=C2=A0 identity function-type {


=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 description


=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 "Possible values are:


=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 plus, minus, mult, divide, remain=
.";


=C2=A0 }


=C2=A0


without ever defining these operators feels strange. I also not=



convinced that the resulting expressions are expressive enough for<=
/u>


real-world use.


=C2=A0


This document is in a state that requires way too much effort to fix


in a WG process. I also doubt that expressing policies in such a


low-level format is usable in practice. Policy languages for network


management have a long history and this proposal seems to ignore the


lessons learned in the past.


=C2=A0


/js


=C2=A0

=C2=A0

_______________________________________________
netmod mailing list
netmod@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
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Mon, 24 Feb 2020 21:13:40 +0000 From: "Sterne, Jason (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)" To: Martin Bjorklund , =?iso-8859-1?Q?Oscar_Gonz=E1lez_de_Dios?= CC: "opsawg@ietf.org" , "netmod@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [netmod] Question on how to design a Yang model to reflect auto-asignment of a give leaf Thread-Index: AQHV4Xjaema+meZLWk2xNgC8vQWlkqgq6sMQ Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 21:13:40 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20200211.105956.997059335051594687.mbj@tail-f.com> <20200212.084745.340561451697677336.mbj@tail-f.com> In-Reply-To: <20200212.084745.340561451697677336.mbj@tail-f.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=jason.sterne@nokia.com; x-originating-ip: [65.110.215.75] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-ht: Tenant x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: f8a2e9f3-efd3-48a1-2a95-08d7b96e6c26 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: DM5PR08MB3531:|DM5PR08MB3531: x-ld-processed: 5d471751-9675-428d-917b-70f44f9630b0,ExtAddr x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; 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charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: nokia.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: f8a2e9f3-efd3-48a1-2a95-08d7b96e6c26 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 24 Feb 2020 21:13:40.5217 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5d471751-9675-428d-917b-70f44f9630b0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: FsSltCYPNUTJ3t8W9XtKlztpmrnDAxEkkfppuAvwDwRg0Yjogwac69DnV2hayJ93DMyQcUuhFiUeY2ussaF8GA== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM5PR08MB3531 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Question on how to design a Yang model to reflect auto-asignment of a give leaf X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 21:13:46 -0000 Agree that ideally we avoid (a) in running. Unfortunately I think we used (= a) in ietf-interfaces though: leaf type { type identityref { base interface-type; } mandatory true; description "The type of the interface. When an interface entry is created, a server MAY initialize the type leaf with a valid value, e.g., if it is possible to derive the type from the name of the interface. I do like (c) but note that it means the value calculated by the server may= not be persistent (e.g. across reboot). It depends how the server calculat= es the value. If it is "allocated" from some sort of free list, then at reb= oot it may select a different value than the previously selected value. Jason > -----Original Message----- > From: netmod On Behalf Of Martin Bjorklund > Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2020 2:48 AM > To: Oscar Gonz=E1lez de Dios > Cc: opsawg@ietf.org; netmod@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [netmod] Question on how to design a Yang model to reflect a= uto- > asignment of a give leaf >=20 > Oscar Gonz=E1lez de Dios wrote: > > > > > > -----Mensaje original----- > > De: Martin Bjorklund > > Enviado el: martes, 11 de febrero de 2020 11:00 > > Para: Oscar Gonz=E1lez de Dios > > CC: opsawg@ietf.org; netmod@ietf.org > > Asunto: Re: [netmod] Question on how to design a Yang model to reflect > > auto-asignment of a give leaf > > > > Hi, > > > > Oscar Gonz=E1lez de Dios wrote: > > > Dear OPSAWG and Netmod colleagues, > > > > > > During last IETF Opsawg meeting we raised a question = (and > > > there was some discussion during the meeting) that we= have > > > found yet no good answer and we would like to discuss= it > > > with > > > operations and Yang experts. > > > > > > The use case is the following: We have a yang module = which > > > holds certain optional leafs. The behaviors that we w= ould > > > like > > > to have (and distinguish between them) are: > > > > > > > > > a) The user does not provide the value and such value is auto-assigne= d > > > by the system (a device (if it is a device module) or a controller (i= f > > > it is a network/service module)). > > > > I assume that this value not a static default value? > > > > [Oscar] True. Should the leaf have a default value, it implies that > > "if the value is not set, the default value is taken". > > > > > b) The user does not provide a value and wants that such value IS NOT > > > set by the system (as assigning a value has implications). That is, > > > intentionally it is aimed at being left "empty" and should not be > > > expanded. So, either the value is set or should remain empty > > > > Do you mean that you want (a) and (b) at the same time for the same > > leaf? > > > > [Oscar] No. Depending on the leaf, we would like to specify behavior a > > or behavior b. Behavior a is ok for most of the cases. The problem is > > that in some cases, assigning a value has way more implications and > > the service will not work properly. Those case are the ones we wanted > > to specifically tackle. >=20 > Ok. See below. >=20 > > > What is the best way to model this behavior? I see that some yang > > > modules have added an "auto-assignment" leaf to express if > > > auto-assignment is desired or not. (hence, auto-assignment false, and > > > leaf not set, would do not assign). > > > > > > Which is the "default" rule for a leaf that is not set? It is that th= e > > > system is free to create it (via template or any means of > > > auto-assignment) or should leave it as is, that is, empty? > > > > > > In NMDA, the system is allowed to expand a given configuration. This > > > fact, in my personal view, implies that by "default" any system could > > > implement the "auto-assignment" behavior being compliant with > > > Neconf/Restconf/NMDA rules (but I am not sure if the interpretation i= s > > > correct). > > > > There are (at least) three ways to interpret "auto-assign". The > > client writes to running, and then the server auto-assigns X: > > > > (a) in running > > (b) in intended > > (c) in the operational state > > > > (c) is uncontroversial and simple to implement in all servers, and > > simple to understand. > > [Oscar] agree > > > > (b) is allowed by NMDA but requires more of the server implementation; > > specifically it requires the server to support that intended is > > different from running. > > [Oscar] Agree . "Theoretically speaking" this is the behavior I would > > consider strictly follows NMDA guidelines. Reality is implementations > > are yet far from this... > > > > (a) is not recommended in general; running should be fully owned by > > the client(s) and not modified by the server. > > [Oscar] Agree. > > > > [Oscar] So... what would be the best way to specify the behavior? > > Explicitly adding an auto-assign leaf to identify the behavior? Just > > "obey" NMDA rules? >=20 > For your "auto-assignment" case, I would describe the behaviour in the > description statement. Something like: "If this leaf has not been > configured, the server will calculate a value [... specify how ... ] > and use that value operationally. This calculated value is available > in the operational state." >=20 > For your other case (the user really doesn't want a value) I also > would document this in the description (unless it's obvious). >=20 >=20 >=20 > /martin >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > > > > > > /martin > > > > > > > > > > > > Best Regards, > > > > > > =D3scar > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > Este mensaje y sus adjuntos se dirigen exclusivamente a su > > > destinatario, puede contener informaci=F3n privilegiada o confidencia= l y > > > es para uso exclusivo de la persona o entidad de destino. Si no es > > > usted. el destinatario indicado, queda notificado de que la lectura, > > > utilizaci=F3n, divulgaci=F3n y/o copia sin autorizaci=F3n puede estar > > > prohibida en virtud de la legislaci=F3n vigente. Si ha recibido este > > > mensaje por error, le rogamos que nos lo comunique inmediatamente por > > > esta misma v=EDa y proceda a su destrucci=F3n. > > > > > > The information contained in this transmission is privileged and > > > confidential information intended only for the use of the individual > > > or entity named above. If the reader of this message is not the > > > intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, > > > distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. > > > If you have received this transmission in error, do not read it. > > > Please immediately reply to the sender that you have received this > > > communication in error and then delete it. > > > > > > Esta mensagem e seus anexos se dirigem exclusivamente ao seu > > > destinat=E1rio, pode conter informa=E7=E3o privilegiada ou confidenci= al e =E9 > > > para uso exclusivo da pessoa ou entidade de destino. Se n=E3o =E9 vos= sa > > > senhoria o destinat=E1rio indicado, fica notificado de que a leitura, > > > utiliza=E7=E3o, divulga=E7=E3o e/ou c=F3pia sem autoriza=E7=E3o pode = estar proibida > > > em virtude da legisla=E7=E3o vigente. Se recebeu esta mensagem por er= ro, > > > rogamos-lhe que nos o comunique imediatamente por esta mesma via e > > > proceda a sua destrui=E7=E3o > > > > ________________________________ > > > > Este mensaje y sus adjuntos se dirigen exclusivamente a su > > destinatario, puede contener informaci=F3n privilegiada o confidencial = y > > es para uso exclusivo de la persona o entidad de destino. Si no es > > usted. el destinatario indicado, queda notificado de que la lectura, > > utilizaci=F3n, divulgaci=F3n y/o copia sin autorizaci=F3n puede estar > > prohibida en virtud de la legislaci=F3n vigente. Si ha recibido este > > mensaje por error, le rogamos que nos lo comunique inmediatamente por > > esta misma v=EDa y proceda a su destrucci=F3n. > > > > The information contained in this transmission is privileged and > > confidential information intended only for the use of the individual > > or entity named above. If the reader of this message is not the > > intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, > > distribution or copying of this communication is strictly > > prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, do not > > read it. Please immediately reply to the sender that you have received > > this communication in error and then delete it. > > > > Esta mensagem e seus anexos se dirigem exclusivamente ao seu > > destinat=E1rio, pode conter informa=E7=E3o privilegiada ou confidencial= e =E9 > > para uso exclusivo da pessoa ou entidade de destino. Se n=E3o =E9 vossa > > senhoria o destinat=E1rio indicado, fica notificado de que a leitura, > > utiliza=E7=E3o, divulga=E7=E3o e/ou c=F3pia sem autoriza=E7=E3o pode es= tar proibida > > em virtude da legisla=E7=E3o vigente. Se recebeu esta mensagem por erro= , > > rogamos-lhe que nos o comunique imediatamente por esta mesma via e > > proceda a sua destrui=E7=E3o > > > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod From nobody Mon Feb 24 18:21:46 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0EFC3A1800; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 18:21:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IDc1AX68OgkC; Mon, 24 Feb 2020 18:21:43 -0800 (PST) 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Thanks Rob for good review and propose= d text, I will incorporate them in v-13, the only comment I am not sure is = comment 3, I have nothing to add for instruction for RFC editor besides

RFC Editor note in the YANG data model= code to remind the RFC Editor to replace RFC xxx and related date to actua= l RFC number and publication date respectively.

 

-Qin

=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB: Rob Wilton (rwilton) [mailto:rwilton@cisco.com]
=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4: 2020= =C4=EA2=D4= =C225=C8=D5 0:05
=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB: draft-ietf-netmod-factory-default@ietf.org; netmod@ietf.org
=B3=AD=CB=CD: Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>
=D6=F7=CC=E2: [Incoming] AD review of draft-ietf-netmod-factory-default-12

 

Hi,

 

Thanks for writing this documen= t.  I found this document to be well written, clear and understandable= .  However, there are a few issues which I think could be addressed be= fore kicking off IETF LC.

 

I have the following comments: =

 

  1. Title: The title of the document may be clearer as: =A1=B0A YANG Data Model for Factory Default Settings=A1=B1.=

 

  1. Abstract: I would suggest condensing the abstract, which is currently v= ery similar to the introduction, perhaps to the following text:<= /span>

 = 

 =A1=B0This document =
defines a YANG data model to allow clients to

  reset a server back =
to its factory default condition.  It


  also defines a =A1=
=B0factory-default=A1=B1 datastore to allow clients


  to read the factory =
default configuration for the device.


 

  The YANG data model =
in this document conforms to the Network


  Management Datastore=
 Architecture (NMDA) defined in RFC 8342.


   =A1=B1<=
/span>


 


    

  1. Introduction: It might be useful to include instructions for the RFC ed=
itor at the beginning of the introduction to summarize what actions are req=
uired before publication.


 =



    

  1. Terminology (section 1.1).   For the definition of the factor=
y-default datastore, I would add the sentence =A1=B0This
 datastore is referred to as "<factory-default>.=A1=B1


 =



    

  1. Terminology (section 1.1).  I propose that you also important the =
term =A1=B0datastore schema=A1=B1 from RFC 8342, for use with a proposed up=
date to section 3.


 =



    

  1. Section 2, third bullet.  It might be better to replace =A1=B0ephemeral datastores=A1=B1
 with =A1=B0dynamic =
configuration datastores=A1=B1, since that is t=
he reference is RFC 8342.


 =



    

  1. Section 3, first paragraph.  I suggest removing the word minimal, =
i.e. =A1=B0preconfig=
ured
 minimal initial configuration=A1=B1 =3D> =
=A1=B0preconfigured =
initial configuration=A1=B1, since it isn=A1=AF=
t
 required that the factory default configuration is minimal, although it wo=
uld normally be so.


 


    

  1. Section 3. I think that the document must define what the schema is for=
 the =A1=B0factory-default=A1=B1.  Hence, rather than =A1=B0YANG
 modules: all=A1=B1, perhaps =A1=B0YANG modules: The factory defaul=
t datastore schema MUST either be the same as the conventional
 configuration datastores, or a subset of the datastore schema for the conv=
entional configuration datastores.=A1=B1 



 


    

  1. Section 3. Probably add the following sentence to the end of section 3:=
 =A1=B0If
 supported, the factory-default datastore MUST be included in the list of d=
atastores in YANG library [RFC 8525].=A1=B1&nbs=
p; This would probably also add RFC 8525 as a normative reference.


 


    

  1. YANG module, rpc factory-reset description.  I suggest changing th=
e description to



 =



=A1=B0The server resets all datastores to t=
heir factory default content and any non-volatile storage
 back to factory condition, deleting all dynamically generated files, inclu=
ding those containing keys, certificates, logs, and other temporary files.<=
o:p>


 


Depending on the factory default configuration, after being reset, the d=
evice may become unreachable on the network.=A1=
=B1


 


    

  1. I think that the security section needs to explicitly mention that non =
volatile storage is expected to be wiped clean and reset back to the factor=
y default state, but that there is no
 guarantee that the data is wiped to any particular data cleansing particul=
ar standard, and the owner of the device MUST NOT rely on any temporary dat=
a (e.g., including private keys) being unrecoverable after the factory-rese=
t RPC has been invoked.


 


 


Nits:


 


Section 2: 

=A1=B0are all reset to=A1=B1 =
=3D> =A1=B0are reset to=A1=B1


=A1=B0datastores(e.g. =A1=B0 =
=3D> =A1=B0datastores (e.g., =A1=B0


 


Section 3:

=A1=B0with <operational> =
=3D> =A1=B0with the <operational>=A1=B1.


 


Section 7: =A1=B0, Susan Hares =
to review this draft and provide important input to this document=A1=B1 =3D=
> =A1=B0, and Susan Hares for reviewing this document and providing impo=
rtant input=A1=B1.


 


Regards,


Rob


 
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cD4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8L2JvZHk+DQo8L2h0bWw+DQo= --_000_MN2PR11MB4366648110251DD62D24CAC2B5ED0MN2PR11MB4366namp_-- From nobody Tue Feb 25 02:44:27 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 060B13A0937; Tue, 25 Feb 2020 02:44:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jUaOqvEcsSZN; Tue, 25 Feb 2020 02:44:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) 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auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: netmod@ietf.org Message-ID: <158263415852.15580.5789396939636577371@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2020 04:35:58 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [netmod] I-D Action: draft-ietf-netmod-factory-default-13.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2020 12:35:59 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Network Modeling WG of the IETF. Title : A YANG Data Model for Factory Default Settings Authors : Qin Wu Balazs Lengyel Ye Niu Filename : draft-ietf-netmod-factory-default-13.txt Pages : 12 Date : 2020-02-25 Abstract: This document defines a YANG data model to allow clients to reset a server back to its factory default condition. It also defines a "factory-default" datastore to allow clients to read the factory default configuration for the device. The YANG data model in this document conforms to the Network Management Datastore Architecture (NMDA) defined in RFC 8342. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-factory-default/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netmod-factory-default-13 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netmod-factory-default-13 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-netmod-factory-default-13 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Tue Feb 25 04:39:02 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 223C43A08F3 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 2020 04:39:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iq-HcNgLfUVW for ; Tue, 25 Feb 2020 04:38:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7D9423A08E8 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 2020 04:38:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from LHREML712-CAH.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.106]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 0CD55C8E800AEBEE8BC2 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 2020 12:38:58 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DGGEML405-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.17.49) by LHREML712-CAH.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.35) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.408.0; Tue, 25 Feb 2020 12:38:57 +0000 Received: from DGGEML511-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.1.89]) by dggeml405-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.3.17.49]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Tue, 25 Feb 2020 20:38:50 +0800 From: Qin Wu To: "netmod@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: I-D Action: draft-ietf-netmod-factory-default-13.txt Thread-Index: AdXr2IMAD0g3SlFzSkOFaoDGbtP2GQ== Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2020 12:38:50 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.138.33.123] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="gb2312" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 01:33:15 -0000 Hi Juergen, thank you for your comments! Please find replies inline, --- Alex > -----Original Message----- > From: netmod On Behalf Of Sch=F6nw=E4lder, J=FC= rgen > Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2020 8:57 AM > To: Joel Jaeggli > Cc: netmod-chairs@ietf.org; netmod@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [netmod] WGLC - Comparison of NMDA datastores - draft-ietf- > netmod-nmda-diff-03 >=20 > Hi, >=20 > this is a good document that deserves to go forward. Some comments... >=20 > - In the introduction, you may want to mention that applied config > often differs from config because applied config includes stuff that > was learned or generated by the system (e.g., IP addresses obtained > via DHCP or generated by the kernel itself). This applies to systems > that otherwise implement NC or RC in a synchronous update manner, > i.e., a difference between and is for many > operational systems likely the normal situation and not an > exceptional one. =20 Agreed. Adding the following text in the Introduction to bring this out cl= earer: " Likewise, during the course of operation, some data values may be = learned or updated by the system itself over time, causing datastores to di= verge. " >=20 > - I do not understand this: >=20 > [...] (The filter dow not contain expressions that > would match values data nodes, as this is not required by most use > cases and would complicate the scheme, from implementation to > dealing with race conditions.) >=20 > Despite the wording nits, I fail to understand the race condition > argument. It seems the filters are the same as we have them in other > places and this is good and a strong argument by itself. Reusing > concepts is a good thing. Just state that and remove potentially > hand-waving arguments about race conditions created by filtering on > values. (And subtree filters can filter out certain interfaces by > matching the element.) What this meant to explain is that the filter simply defines which = nodes are in and out of scope, independent of their actual value. In other= words, you would not be able to specify something like "have this be in sc= ope, but only if its value is between 5 and 10". This is to keep things si= mple; the race condition concerns if there are different speeds at which va= lues propagate. =20 In order to simplify this, I suggest we simply remove the text in paranthes= es (which was meant to provide clarification, but seems to add confusion, h= ence best to simply strike.) =20 >=20 > - I think you should import the term 'schema node' (and if necessary > also other terms) from RFC 7950. Perhaps merge section 2+3 into a > section Terminology that has the RFC2119 blurb and states that this > specification uses the terminology defined in RFC 7950 and RFC 8342. >=20 OK, we are merging 2+3 (both are very short anyway). Putting the following= sentence in lieu of the acronyms: This specification uses the terminology = defined in [RFC7950] and [RFC8342]. For definitions of terms such as "data= store", "schema node", "", or "origin", please refer to those RF= Cs. =20 > - Given that the applied configuration includes learned and system > provided data, it may make a lot of sense to filter on origin so > that learned or system generated config is not part of the > comparison. I think this is really missing. Of course, one can > filter the result to get rid of all 'learned' items but the whole > point of the compare RPC is to avoid long responses that are not > needed. The get-data operation defined in RFC 8526 has an origin > filter that may be reused. (Perhaps it makes sense to align the > parameters with RFC 8526 get-data even further.) Hmm, what are you exactly suggesting here? We could add a parameter = to include (or exclude) data of a certain origin. However, that would rais= e the possibility that some differences are not found whose cause is precis= ely that they have a different origin than anticipated (e.g., for which it = was not clear that they could be learned, or that they would be preconfigur= ed). Hence not making changes just yet; could you explain your requirement= /suggestion a little more? =20 >=20 > - Why do we need the 'no-matches' leaf? Why not simply return an empty > 'differences' container? >=20 I guess this is a design choice. I guess we could return an empty containe= r as well; the "no-matches" makes it more "explicit", and in terms of respo= nse size it does not make a difference. Unless there is a strong preferenc= e, we would like to prefer to keep it. (Or perhaps Andy wants to jump in?) > - Nit >=20 > OLD >=20 > RPC request to compare (target of the comparison): >=20 > NEW >=20 > RPC request to compare (source of the comparison) with > (target of the comparison): fixed the spacing=20 >=20 > - I have not validated the examples. >=20 > - Section 7 talks about rejecting frequent requests. It may be useful > to specify which error response is returned in this case so that > coders implement the same behavior. >=20 We could add that. Which one would be appropriate to return / what = should be returned? =20 Should we simply return error-type "rpc", with error-tag "resource-denied"?= =20 If we do that, should we also include error-info, specifying a time interva= l after which it would be "safe" to issue the next diff request? =20 > - Perhaps the document should spell out how compare interacts with > NACM. I kind of assume that NACM rules are applied before the > content is compared, i.e., data that is not accessible won't get > compared. Well, whatever the correct behavior is, I think this > deserves to be spelled out. Per RFC 8341, the same access control rules apply to all datastores = subjected to NACM - presumably also to all datastores that can be subjected= to nmda-diff. From that perspective we didn't think it necessary to spell= it out, but perhaps it should be. =20 How about adding the following at the end of the first paragraph of Section= 4: "Any access control rules as configured by NACM [RFC 8341] are applied by t= he server before the comparison is performed, that is, only datastore schem= a nodes for which the client has read access are included in the comparison= ." =20 >=20 > - I would probably have picked in ietf-interfaces example to avoid a > reference to a work in progress but this does not really matter > much. That would have been possible as well. We prefer sticking with this= example (it's just an example, so non-normative) if acceptable since it ge= nerates less work, however, if there is insistence that we update, we will = be happy to do so.=20 Thanks (end of my replies here) --- Alex >=20 > /js >=20 > On Mon, Feb 17, 2020 at 11:42:01AM -0800, Joel Jaeggli wrote: > > Greetings, > > > > This was supposed to get processed shortly after IETF 106, however I lo= st > track of it. We are therefore running a 2 week WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod- > nmda-diff-03. > > > > > https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fdatat= r > acker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fdraft-ietf-netmod-nmda- > diff%2F&data=3D02%7C01%7Calex%40futurewei.com%7C27cc7820468c4c5f > 7bb208d7b55cd5c9%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C63 > 7177282659984332&sdata=3DhMaCe8q44NEdcaPy74s29tAkLIJbEBQhjnRp5Y > mtkB0%3D&reserved=3D0 > > > > the 02 - 03 diff is available here: > > > > > https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.i > etf.org%2Frfcdiff%3Furl1%3Ddraft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff- > 02%26url2%3Ddraft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff- > 03&data=3D02%7C01%7Calex%40futurewei.com%7C27cc7820468c4c5f7bb2 > 08d7b55cd5c9%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637177 > 282659984332&sdata=3Djm03o26D0LMjaUfERALelo3RtNG4%2BliglxPWR3Ls > 99c%3D&reserved=3D0 > > > > Please send email to the list indicating your support or concerns. > > > > This WGLC will conclude Monday March 2nd. > > > > > > Thank you, > > NETMOD WG Chairs > > >=20 >=20 > > _______________________________________________ > > netmod mailing list > > netmod@ietf.org > > > https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.i > etf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fnetmod&data=3D02%7C01%7Calex%40fu > turewei.com%7C27cc7820468c4c5f7bb208d7b55cd5c9%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189 > c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637177282659984332&sdata=3DkMP6EgO > qJ6N3FkPnCCt%2F25Xt9v4p9XAUGvpCv2Go47Y%3D&reserved=3D0 >=20 >=20 > -- > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 > .jacobs- > university.de%2F&data=3D02%7C01%7Calex%40futurewei.com%7C27cc782 > 0468c4c5f7bb208d7b55cd5c9%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1% > 7C0%7C637177282659984332&sdata=3DBlWciwRclsZnEzcugWnkxr7vAWvsS > E%2BKGodwzUMRS9Q%3D&reserved=3D0> >=20 > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > 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Feb 2020 01:57:21 +0000 From: Alexander Clemm To: Tianran Zhou , Joel Jaeggli , "netmod@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [netmod] Adoption poll for draft-wwx-netmod-event-yang Thread-Index: AQHV5nqyUkhN2CSKkkal6VOj9CUTx6gsVb8wgABY4ICAAA9/EA== Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 01:57:21 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=alex@futurewei.com; x-originating-ip: [12.111.81.95] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 791920d6-5bd8-47f3-41c2-08d7ba5f37d4 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BY5PR13MB2982: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; x-forefront-prvs: 0325F6C77B x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; 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Futurewei.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: d9aa8a33-261a-4ee7-f94d-08d7ba664deb X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 26 Feb 2020 02:48:05.1396 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 0fee8ff2-a3b2-4018-9c75-3a1d5591fedc X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: ttkP6+GJRN/NesODWY14/jPEN6rYWjEkv++8+FpUjdgmo6QbS0BFIVcofcUBBlg8aeu0uSO+yVDS+c6ggbLeDQ== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BY5PR13MB3013 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] WGLC - Comparison of NMDA datastores - draft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff-03 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 02:48:12 -0000 Hi Martin, thank you for your comments! Please see replies inline, --- Alex > -----Original Message----- > From: netmod On Behalf Of Martin Bjorklund > Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2020 8:59 AM > To: joelja@bogus.com > Cc: netmod-chairs@ietf.org; netmod@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [netmod] WGLC - Comparison of NMDA datastores - draft-ietf- > netmod-nmda-diff-03 >=20 > Hi, >=20 > Joel Jaeggli wrote: > > Greetings, > > > > This was supposed to get processed shortly after IETF 106, however I lo= st > track of it. We are therefore running a 2 week WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod- > nmda-diff-03. > > > > > https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fdatat= r > acker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fdraft-ietf-netmod-nmda- > diff%2F&data=3D02%7C01%7Calex%40futurewei.com%7C2a7d8572a82d4d > c6fb8208d7b6263e8c%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C6 > 37178147700288369&sdata=3Dz8dXlaWjYttnG2vFn8YWLzld3i2TpQoMkHXks > I9xm%2Bc%3D&reserved=3D0 > > > > the 02 - 03 diff is available here: > > > > > https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.i > etf.org%2Frfcdiff%3Furl1%3Ddraft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff- > 02%26url2%3Ddraft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff- > 03&data=3D02%7C01%7Calex%40futurewei.com%7C2a7d8572a82d4dc6fb8 > 208d7b6263e8c%7C0fee8ff2a3b240189c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C63717 > 8147700298323&sdata=3D1uye5dZqb7dhIJ5DZaGb4yChrLD6BUCg8R%2BwK > Pvnlm4%3D&reserved=3D0 > > > > Please send email to the list indicating your support or concerns. >=20 >=20 > I have reviewed draft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff-03 and have some comments. >=20 > o Section 4 >=20 > (The filter dow not contain expressions that > would match values data nodes, as this is not required by most use > cases and would complicate the scheme, from implementation to > dealing with race conditions.) >=20 > I don't think it is a good idea to reject filters that match > values. For example, suppose I want to compare the config for a > specific interface. I could do /interfaces/interfac[name=3D'eth0'], > or a subtree filter. Why should this not be possible? >=20 > Besides, the mechanism of rejecting such filters is not defined. > The only text we have is this sentence within parentheses. >=20 In my response to Juergen, I suggested to simply remove the text in = the parantheses as it is apparently confusing. =20 Our intent was to keep it simple and simply use the filter to "scope" the o= peration. If we want to include matching values, things get a bit more com= plex with no clear benefit (when you would even want to specify such filter= ), but admittedly we were thinking of e.g. rapidly changing operational dat= a. For example, what if the value matches in the source but not the target= , or vice versa - do we need to specify which one we mean (source, target, = or any)? There are also the mentioned "race conditions" if snap shots are = taken at different times - although I guess those would be implementation l= imitations. =20 That said, we can of course add it in if you do feel we should have that op= tion (and we don't get objections). You are correct that we should specify= an error for rejecting the filter. =20 >=20 > o leaf all in the YANG module >=20 > s/Specifically, if one/For example, if one/ >=20 Changed >=20 > o leaf xpath-filter >=20 > The description needs to specify the XPath context, see RFC 6991. >=20 Not sure what we need to be done here; the leaf uses the type defini= tion from RFC 6991 (i.t. type yang:xpath1.0); is there anything else - plea= se advise =20 >=20 > o container differences >=20 > It is not clear what the YANG patch records reflect. Is it the > patches that are required to go from "source" to "target"? Or the > other way around? >=20 It is from source to target. This is stated e.g. here: "The YANG-Pa= tch data model is augmented to indicate the value of source datastore nodes= in addition to the patch itself that would need to be applied to the sourc= e to produce the target." I updated the description in the container "differences" as follows: " "The list of differences, encoded per RFC8072,=20 indicating the patches that need to be applied to=20 the source in order to arrive at the target,=20 with an augmentation to include source values where=20 applicable.";" >=20 > o anydata source-value >=20 > This description needs work. The current text isn't correct > ('value' is not present when the operation is 'move'). >=20 > The description should explain what this is supposed to contain. >=20 When the operation is 'move', we want to be able to indicate the ord= er prior to the move. What would you call it? =20 >=20 > o Section 6 >=20 > The example is confusing. It seems the diff is the patches required > to go from target to source. And the source-value contains the > origin present in the target, is that correct? And the value > contains an origin that isn't present in neither the source nor the > target. >=20 We will review the example to ensure it's correct; will get back to = you on that tomorrow. The diff contains the patches to go from source to t= arget, ie the patches that, when applied to source, give you the target. =20 Thanks again for your review! >=20 >=20 > /martin >=20 > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.i > etf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fnetmod&data=3D02%7C01%7Calex%40fu > turewei.com%7C2a7d8572a82d4dc6fb8208d7b6263e8c%7C0fee8ff2a3b24018 > 9c753a1d5591fedc%7C1%7C0%7C637178147700298323&sdata=3DW1xgXQS > lSzklkBAE1m324pwfJHnS%2B88OschqnJDdEBw%3D&reserved=3D0 From nobody Tue Feb 25 22:42:28 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B15C63A0EEA; Tue, 25 Feb 2020 22:42:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JF2ekk1O3AOv; Tue, 25 Feb 2020 22:42:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pl1-x62a.google.com (mail-pl1-x62a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::62a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AC3FF3A0EDD; Tue, 25 Feb 2020 22:42:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pl1-x62a.google.com with SMTP id ay11so907158plb.0; Tue, 25 Feb 2020 22:42:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=content-transfer-encoding:from:mime-version:subject:message-id:date :cc:to; bh=KID+1V1SqicUZPChyfHjMuVGrJjot5REl7FXTE0tUvA=; b=tjKaw+sRGCTkTXBUBqBB7R7Zedr0HIiC9uYWelZcoqmOS0b1e4dePP7vV0VOLv4aGx 0rhZdHmpUbOufGku5RvSMWdcW3512dq7MNeQFvs+iGbew04AEY1zw4T3cm26NdClJ2GG o/4m0cLs+EGQDDzpnRE37yd8C/fS5JQLaGshGo/XUWHbpxhFHtg15AB5yfgLMd4/JwZp vcrXiIxkOH9dIFoXI52/Ioi2YZSv0JIW+r47Rt3aUhuf+rJ51QuH/VqRNNtCej1VnyAA kF3BKHx8viuHLjT7Rs1Sy4XLQWoJwPr403VnPAS0RJOiefoPnlItlwHrolOHtb6LjwUy cKLQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:content-transfer-encoding:from:mime-version :subject:message-id:date:cc:to; bh=KID+1V1SqicUZPChyfHjMuVGrJjot5REl7FXTE0tUvA=; b=qIS0t9QnI2t5jsnRkEm5Jh2yS57zAVvUKFJmiWJPcZELjFwhJf9dVdEv+sqlu6/wqt zihb/ui+aaxwVmRe+MpIERboo9eqVdGbu6E46xSi1Ll5wGeYzCNZR2ejv2a9qpIn5PCK pSdmwVhtDqNkRqNwTglShDtG6nOZaeIiOBf0m4FJC1Pttbb/WGYK+wYiN1UftTkIZt1/ svndUfA/ciy1tOilf4i/GWeqgmDVFxGNY2fVf2jJ6Jn/zyfclLYlNeTnTsC8RGao0qvH Su/4/fsI8xPx7oumsk+MYzFaFGaKOtI4PETDbCYrFtwtJd7P+eE8Y6ZDprG6A1UIJQKL YgdQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAX9XaKA/ikws7eD9tSjs0sBuu1ftLtjpyrBW+uUKtwbb7Tx8L/T QcmtdmNvJEdgOvswHt9gNxtsgz5L X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqz+1GYSO4Hutd8aIgflQfKSVuDhMZ6x7zkRSJi5uk75Fc/pFdaj5r1/HxBQZ9cNaU6dM+ufEQ== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:aa81:: with SMTP id d1mr2713049plr.16.1582699344403; Tue, 25 Feb 2020 22:42:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.24] (c-73-63-232-212.hsd1.ca.comcast.net. [73.63.232.212]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t15sm1158883pgr.60.2020.02.25.22.42.22 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 25 Feb 2020 22:42:23 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary=Apple-Mail-5B4B142A-C9D5-4602-A995-15435644C849; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Jeff Tantsura Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Message-Id: <95377678-1417-4C30-BAD5-16E8DABE9360@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2020 22:42:18 -0800 Cc: "draft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff@ietf.org" , netmod@ietf.org To: Joel Jaeggli X-Mailer: iPad Mail (17D50) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] draft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff - IPR verfication request X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 06:42:27 -0000 --Apple-Mail-5B4B142A-C9D5-4602-A995-15435644C849 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =EF=BB=BFJoel, No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft. Cheers, Jeff > On Feb 17, 2020, at 11:44, Joel Jaeggli wrote: >=20 > No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft --Apple-Mail-5B4B142A-C9D5-4602-A995-15435644C849 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name=smime.p7s Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=smime.p7s Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExDzANBglghkgBZQMEAgEFADCABgkqhkiG9w0BBwEAAKCCA/Uw ggPxMIIC2aADAgECAggLS67ig18oBjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQsFADBdMS0wKwYDVQQDDCRULU1vYmls ZV9VU0FfRU5HX0RFU19Jc3N1ZXJfc3ViQ0FfMDExFzAVBgoJkiaJk/IsZAEZFgdnc20xOTAwMRMw EQYKCZImiZPyLGQBGRYDb3JnMB4XDTIwMDIxNDE5NDQ0NloXDTIwMDUxODE5NDQ0NlowgZwxLjAs BgNVBAMMJTk5OTk5MDUxNjE0MjMzNEBwcm9kZXBkZy50LW1vYmlsZS5jb20xGTAXBgNVBAsMEElu dGVybmFsIFN5c3RlbXMxGzAZBgNVBAoMElQtTW9iaWxlIFVTQSwgSW5jLjEQMA4GA1UEBwwHQm90 aGVsbDETMBEGA1UECAwKV2FzaGluZ3RvbjELMAkGA1UEBhMCVVMwggEiMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUA A4IBDwAwggEKAoIBAQDPLj9/Fli4GqOQ0r2OSdG0f6+5PJyj+yUA0El7BloWPITcapVBDJpiX46w iY11goLzeTf2Q2FslpIWbndqbcVs7Pt+VpM8OpDWnOraoxqwA1cb+5ye4dkYLp7Xp3sYhq5vrb22 TGalTmArPa57VwYIdmAnEplrPr0YL7Vaq1c45PLPxYv6gAPO8PHi8QfZ4qnqVfFhpq9fylofBAPd 9JHmlmkmz6fHpxuxpinGZwUXq4z+et45J69iXyA+X7KsHEKDh/NAzgJaF9R9Fu7bbJ+b673KtNSs hIcRG71p3h8vHFZSV9bqzg+wK4+31JnugPTOKB2SV9JmudYrzH8PYJchAgMBAAGjdTBzMAwGA1Ud EwEB/wQCMAAwHwYDVR0jBBgwFoAU9relEOkpSUHWbsLXb6GCli+Vv6gwEwYDVR0lBAwwCgYIKwYB BQUHAwIwHQYDVR0OBBYEFF3gZ14XB3dykD4kycioCtuACudjMA4GA1UdDwEB/wQEAwIF4DANBgkq hkiG9w0BAQsFAAOCAQEANSqnSEy8tdL+LMR0vkpKYAQvKcwGVSwAFx34zArUI8KS8cB/HfBn+FfE /0CbUAhtMAbMD8iPoB26X4wqzpHobfSdWYa29BSqO6gcHrWc2rVS/baEMaDb6exHym/jvBfFCMv/ kC/lChImBK545TljzMOUhxS9hvZvm15xkVHMM/7TgcDKH2+DyXM4GA02UXFdX5NVYPBm8O+7+VU3 wsHXPhp8SNrSdtbEN1+mF5e/OPOdC4zlSonR6Dd7yNTu3aPFJ775wJL/k/Z9FlZyuhntS3+V4xJg wu5+jZ7Hj+v5lGips3uV4y4PprhsU8hboUfw4fQ1if5fcTEHXYxh/I+1XTGCAvcwggLzAgEBMGkw XTEtMCsGA1UEAwwkVC1Nb2JpbGVfVVNBX0VOR19ERVNfSXNzdWVyX3N1YkNBXzAxMRcwFQYKCZIm iZPyLGQBGRYHZ3NtMTkwMDETMBEGCgmSJomT8ixkARkWA29yZwIIC0uu4oNfKAYwDQYJYIZIAWUD BAIBBQCgggFfMBgGCSqGSIb3DQEJAzELBgkqhkiG9w0BBwEwHAYJKoZIhvcNAQkFMQ8XDTIwMDIy NjA2NDIxOFowLwYJKoZIhvcNAQkEMSIEIJA3+87ubkQnXFJSANsCYANpW3sSTVpf2zG9nWhDi39y MHgGCSsGAQQBgjcQBDFrMGkwXTEtMCsGA1UEAwwkVC1Nb2JpbGVfVVNBX0VOR19ERVNfSXNzdWVy X3N1YkNBXzAxMRcwFQYKCZImiZPyLGQBGRYHZ3NtMTkwMDETMBEGCgmSJomT8ixkARkWA29yZwII C0uu4oNfKAYwegYLKoZIhvcNAQkQAgsxa6BpMF0xLTArBgNVBAMMJFQtTW9iaWxlX1VTQV9FTkdf REVTX0lzc3Vlcl9zdWJDQV8wMTEXMBUGCgmSJomT8ixkARkWB2dzbTE5MDAxEzARBgoJkiaJk/Is ZAEZFgNvcmcCCAtLruKDXygGMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUABIIBAIXNrjvrjIv4jcnOwKIv0fuiCweV ldJJyzo8XVT1IXy7YDvewxA6ABUWCz+LxKgSucPgvvIIMOU4ojZTWHrmI0TP6K83V+ad9nfBnBWR 7mOJK8Mx87icJ/u1oHN47JKJyGX5TCtRGzvxJ2liuAEjkxjtHRnwSRrh4EJAvVl8ZjvkCNvABVw7 oaCpq9a1fH09JVl0e4hhLOIRxT+F0Y6mcMQu9ME7hoA3uyKZDRASczovyDbICd+Wdy9pH4ajgpBn De4AGNPK7NdIKx2avu9HqrxiVaoXCsG9I1nLks6bvC9PfVuk4z+27rNujH3EFXgBnYRT+4SHxDgF 0plvWJnNWL0AAAAAAAA= --Apple-Mail-5B4B142A-C9D5-4602-A995-15435644C849-- From nobody Wed Feb 26 00:55:05 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 063713A10E3; 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x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata: lO7xIYe8/W2wgZK4ZYr8ARL/a5V+7hPGfFg43+hYkuagifQtf5fapPpgPYIQlRR/5rokHhOr9QFJO8UNdyximMMZpynd6J2wf2fpAWAq97FuuyI8zqqV1f4hzUZzn48eIKk4RdYTZOBhw+T3Z5UlTA== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: jacobs-university.de X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 018e9f13-d7a1-4bcf-f573-08d7ba998bab X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 26 Feb 2020 08:54:53.3758 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: f78e973e-5c0b-4ab8-bbd7-9887c95a8ebd X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: e5ntk90W0V+g7xUZhSZbCoXPE+jwdb1lzFpFX9Y+Qp7cSm3qPNmRgtk87Zp3BL3bVrPp0h1p9acRTEPUzf1nZHzhRCwOzXZ/8O8PodgVN3A= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB6P190MB0295 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] WGLC - Comparison of NMDA datastores - draft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff-03 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 08:55:03 -0000 On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 01:33:08AM +0000, Alexander Clemm wrote: > Hi Juergen, >=20 > thank you for your comments! Please find replies inline, >=20 > --- Alex >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: netmod On Behalf Of Sch=F6nw=E4lder, J= =FCrgen > > Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2020 8:57 AM > > To: Joel Jaeggli > > Cc: netmod-chairs@ietf.org; netmod@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [netmod] WGLC - Comparison of NMDA datastores - draft-ietf= - > > netmod-nmda-diff-03 > >=20 > > Hi, > >=20 > > this is a good document that deserves to go forward. Some comments... > >=20 > > - In the introduction, you may want to mention that applied config > > often differs from config because applied config includes stuff that > > was learned or generated by the system (e.g., IP addresses obtained > > via DHCP or generated by the kernel itself). This applies to systems > > that otherwise implement NC or RC in a synchronous update manner, > > i.e., a difference between and is for many > > operational systems likely the normal situation and not an > > exceptional one. >=20 > =20 > Agreed. Adding the following text in the Introduction to bring this out = clearer: " Likewise, during the course of operation, some data values may b= e learned or updated by the system itself over time, causing datastores to = diverge. " > OK > > - I do not understand this: > >=20 > > [...] (The filter dow not contain expressions that > > would match values data nodes, as this is not required by most us= e > > cases and would complicate the scheme, from implementation to > > dealing with race conditions.) > >=20 > > Despite the wording nits, I fail to understand the race condition > > argument. It seems the filters are the same as we have them in other > > places and this is good and a strong argument by itself. Reusing > > concepts is a good thing. Just state that and remove potentially > > hand-waving arguments about race conditions created by filtering on > > values. (And subtree filters can filter out certain interfaces by > > matching the element.) >=20 > What this meant to explain is that the filter simply defines whic= h nodes are in and out of scope, independent of their actual value. In oth= er words, you would not be able to specify something like "have this be in = scope, but only if its value is between 5 and 10". This is to keep things = simple; the race condition concerns if there are different speeds at which = values propagate. =20 > In order to simplify this, I suggest we simply remove the text in paranth= eses (which was meant to provide clarification, but seems to add confusion,= hence best to simply strike.) =20 > If the filters work exactly the same way as they do elsewhere, then I am happy and yes removing the text in parenthesis is good. > > - I think you should import the term 'schema node' (and if necessary > > also other terms) from RFC 7950. Perhaps merge section 2+3 into a > > section Terminology that has the RFC2119 blurb and states that this > > specification uses the terminology defined in RFC 7950 and RFC 8342. > >=20 >=20 > > OK, we are merging 2+3 (both are very short anyway). Putting the followi= ng sentence in lieu of the acronyms: This specification uses the terminolog= y defined in [RFC7950] and [RFC8342]. For definitions of terms such as "da= tastore", "schema node", "", or "origin", please refer to those = RFCs. =20 > This works for me. > > - Given that the applied configuration includes learned and system > > provided data, it may make a lot of sense to filter on origin so > > that learned or system generated config is not part of the > > comparison. I think this is really missing. Of course, one can > > filter the result to get rid of all 'learned' items but the whole > > point of the compare RPC is to avoid long responses that are not > > needed. The get-data operation defined in RFC 8526 has an origin > > filter that may be reused. (Perhaps it makes sense to align the > > parameters with RFC 8526 get-data even further.) >=20 > Hmm, what are you exactly suggesting here? We could add a paramete= r to include (or exclude) data of a certain origin. However, that would ra= ise the possibility that some differences are not found whose cause is prec= isely that they have a different origin than anticipated (e.g., for which i= t was not clear that they could be learned, or that they would be preconfig= ured). Hence not making changes just yet; could you explain your requireme= nt/suggestion a little more? =20 > I believe that there will be quite large differences between say and due to learned applied config (think of address mapping tables or forwarding table entries originating from control plane protocols) and if I am not interested in this learned state, I like to have a filter that allows me to express that I like to have some of the learned data ignored. Similarly, I having a filter to express that I like to have all config false leafs ignored seems useful if I compare a configuration datastore with . There are several useful filters in the definition of get-data [RFC 8526] and I feel we are missing several of them here. Yes, there may be cases where I do not want to use some of the filters but that does not justify that other use cases like comparing against are not well supported. > > - Why do we need the 'no-matches' leaf? Why not simply return an empty > > 'differences' container? > >=20 > > I guess this is a design choice. I guess we could return an empty contai= ner as well; the "no-matches" makes it more "explicit", and in terms of res= ponse size it does not make a difference. Unless there is a strong prefere= nce, we would like to prefer to keep it. (Or perhaps Andy wants to jump in= ?) > $ diff rfc7950.txt rfc7950.txt $ echo $? 0 Good old tools tend to return an empty diff and not a special value if there is no difference hence I found the design a bit surprising. Perhaps there is a reason behind the design but then it is not obvious to me. > > - Nit > >=20 > > OLD > >=20 > > RPC request to compare > (target of the comparison): > >=20 > > NEW > >=20 > > RPC request to compare (source of the comparison) with > > (target of the comparison): >=20 > fixed the spacing=20 > OK =20 > > - I have not validated the examples. > >=20 > > - Section 7 talks about rejecting frequent requests. It may be useful > > to specify which error response is returned in this case so that > > coders implement the same behavior. > >=20 > We could add that. Which one would be appropriate to return / wha= t should be returned? =20 > Should we simply return error-type "rpc", with error-tag "resource-denied= "? =20 > If we do that, should we also include error-info, specifying a time inter= val after which it would be "safe" to issue the next diff request? =20 > I don't have the answer but obviously it makes sense to clearly spell out the error behavior. ;-) > > - Perhaps the document should spell out how compare interacts with > > NACM. I kind of assume that NACM rules are applied before the > > content is compared, i.e., data that is not accessible won't get > > compared. Well, whatever the correct behavior is, I think this > > deserves to be spelled out. >=20 > Per RFC 8341, the same access control rules apply to all datastore= s subjected to NACM - presumably also to all datastores that can be subject= ed to nmda-diff. From that perspective we didn't think it necessary to spe= ll it out, but perhaps it should be. =20 > How about adding the following at the end of the first paragraph of Secti= on 4: > "Any access control rules as configured by NACM [RFC 8341] are applied by= the server before the comparison is performed, that is, only datastore sch= ema nodes for which the client has read access are included in the comparis= on." =20 > OK =20 > > - I would probably have picked in ietf-interfaces example to avoid a > > reference to a work in progress but this does not really matter > > much. >=20 > That would have been possible as well. We prefer sticking with th= is example (it's just an example, so non-normative) if acceptable since it = generates less work, however, if there is insistence that we update, we wil= l be happy to do so.=20 > As I said, this does not really matter much to me. (I would have picked ietf-interfaces because it is stable and most likely widely understood by pretty much everybody and it nicely can be used to explain why and differ in many different ways, i.e., loopback addresses configured by the system, IP privacy addresses created by the system, IP addresses obtained by DHCP, IP addresses not in due to hardware not present.) /js --=20 Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Wed Feb 26 02:03:06 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 646793A11F5 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 02:03:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, 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bmNlDQo+ID4gSW50ZXJuZXQtRHJhZnQgZGlyZWN0b3JpZXM6IGh0dHA6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcv c2hhZG93Lmh0bWwgb3INCj4gPiBmdHA6Ly9mdHAuaWV0Zi5vcmcvaWV0Zi8xc2hhZG93LXNpdGVz LnR4dA0KPiA+IF9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f DQo+ID4gbmV0bW9kIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KPiA+IG5ldG1vZEBpZXRmLm9yZw0KPiA+IGh0dHBz Oi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbmV0bW9kDQo= From nobody Wed Feb 26 04:28:26 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A79E03A094A for ; Wed, 26 Feb 2020 04:28:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP 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Thread-Index: AdXsoAkozsA67961Tg6jiYKM+sl4qw== Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 12:28:13 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.138.33.123] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] I-D Action: draft-ietf-netmod-factory-default-13.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 12:28:25 -0000 LS0tLS3pgq7ku7bljp/ku7YtLS0tLQ0K5Y+R5Lu25Lq6OiBSb2IgV2lsdG9uIChyd2lsdG9uKSBb bWFpbHRvOnJ3aWx0b25AY2lzY28uY29tXSANCuWPkemAgeaXtumXtDogMjAyMOW5tDLmnIgyNuaX pSAxODowMw0K5pS25Lu25Lq6OiBRaW4gV3UgPGJpbGwud3VAaHVhd2VpLmNvbT47IG5ldG1vZEBp ZXRmLm9yZw0K5Li76aKYOiBSRTogSS1EIEFjdGlvbjogZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi1uZXRtb2QtZmFjdG9y 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charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: netmod@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.118.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: netmod@ietf.org Message-ID: <158272058255.17827.12174575765400449319@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 04:36:22 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [netmod] I-D Action: draft-ietf-netmod-factory-default-14.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 12:36:23 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Network Modeling WG of the IETF. Title : A YANG Data Model for Factory Default Settings Authors : Qin Wu Balazs Lengyel Ye Niu Filename : draft-ietf-netmod-factory-default-14.txt Pages : 12 Date : 2020-02-26 Abstract: This document defines a YANG data model to allow clients to reset a server back to its factory default condition. It also defines a "factory-default" datastore to allow clients to read the factory default configuration for the device. The YANG data model in this document conforms to the Network Management Datastore Architecture (NMDA) defined in RFC 8342. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-factory-default/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netmod-factory-default-14 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netmod-factory-default-14 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-netmod-factory-default-14 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. 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Joel Jaeggli , "netmod@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b89bbd059f7e84d8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Adoption poll for draft-wwx-netmod-event-yang X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 18:10:49 -0000 --000000000000b89bbd059f7e84d8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, On Tue, Feb 25, 2020 at 5:57 PM Alexander Clemm wrote: > In my view, an ECA model allows to define rules for events =E2=80=93 cond= itions =E2=80=93 > actions, i.e. what actions to perform when an event occurs and a conditio= n > met. A smart filter filters an input stream, letting some objects pass b= ut > not others. They are not the same. > > > > There is a connection in that you could define the passing of an object b= y > a smart filter as an event. So, it is conceivable to include an ability = to > define events in this draft. If this is the intent it should be stated so > clearly. The question then becomes if you would want those be used also > independently of the ECA model =E2=80=93 there may be benefit in defining= a new > event without tying it to a rule (i.e. a condition and action) but simply > emitting it. (Same thing for the timer notification, which might have us= es > beyond ECA.) In the draft these things are all mashed together, but > separating the ability to define an event from the ability to specify an > ECA rule (which refers to / is triggered by an event) can benefit > reusability. > > > > Anyway, as mentioned I think this work is relevant and I would like to se= e > it go forward; IMHO some reframing and perhaps splitting of the draft > should be considered whether that occurs before WG adoption or afterwards= . > > > I do not agree that refactoring this draft solves any adoption issues. YANG-based management already has events (specified with notification-stmt)= . The ECA data model should not duplicate other functionality such as alarms. Any event that can be received on an event stream (RFC 8639) should automatically be usable in any ECA logic. Working on a solution without agreement on even the most basic ECA architecture or problem scope is a recipe for failure. Programming with YANG data models as the logic for conditions and actions has never been proven to work. Even the trivial examples are complex and real-world use-cases seem near impossible. (nobody has ever provided on= e so we have to speculate). Achieving interoperability with a workable solution will not be easy. Other solutions have got "Hello world" to work, declared victory, and then went away forever. Why will this time be different? Andy --- Alex > > > > *From:* Tianran Zhou > *Sent:* Tuesday, February 25, 2020 4:44 PM > *To:* Alexander Clemm ; Joel Jaeggli ; > netmod@ietf.org > *Subject:* RE: [netmod] Adoption poll for draft-wwx-netmod-event-yang > > > > Hi the authors, > > > > >=E2=80=9CAnother one to allow the definition of custom events/notificati= ons, or > smart filters for push updates. (We should bring back the earlier draft.= )=E2=80=9D > > As we worked on the smart filter before. We want to use the ECA model. > > It seems this model enabled the generic programmability. Can we just use > it to program any filter or what potentially need to augment/customize fo= r > a specific model? > > Thanks, > > Tianran > > > > *From:* netmod [mailto:netmod-bounces@ietf.org ]= *On > Behalf Of *Alexander Clemm > *Sent:* Wednesday, February 26, 2020 4:01 AM > *To:* Joel Jaeggli ; netmod@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [netmod] Adoption poll for draft-wwx-netmod-event-yang > > > > Hi, > > > > I support this draft and would like to see netmod work on this, but I do > think some aspects need more maturing and parts of this probably should b= e > rescoped. Should the draft be adopted now, or should it be improved firs= t > and adopted later? Not sure. I would like to see the work continue, so = in > that sense I would clearly like to see the work adopted; at the same tim= e > there are a number of issues that IMHO really need to be addressed. > > > > I share some of the concerns raised by Juergen and Andy. Specifically, I > think the precise problem needs to be defined more clearly. In the > discussion it was mentioned RMON =E2=80=93 would it be that, or perhaps a= better > analogy Event MIB? Section 3 mentions that this is to specify trigger > conditions for when to send push updates. That is perhaps consistent wit= h > an Event MIB, but a slightly different problem from ECAs. Section 4.2 th= en > proceeds to allow for the definition of =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D =E2=80= =93 but really only defining > a =E2=80=9Ctimer event=E2=80=9D, with the ECA model omitting tie-in e.g. = with > notifications. Including a threshold mechanism here is a bit distracting > and should perhaps be taken out =E2=80=93 while the crossing of a thresho= ld might > constitute an event, I don=E2=80=99t think this should be tied inside an = ECA but be > something that stands on its own. (The prior draft on Smart Filters for > Push Updates addressed this =E2=80=93 it has layed dormant for a while an= d in this > sense I can=E2=80=99t object for this work to be picked someplace else, b= ut > logically really it does not belong here but should be separate.) The > actions, finally, describe not simply management operations. I understan= d > the intent is to have an escape mechanism allowing to =E2=80=9Ccall out= =E2=80=9D other > functions / scripts deployed at a device, but this intent needs to be > called out more clearly. > > > > So, in summary, I think the WG should consider rescoping this draft a bit > =E2=80=93 maybe divided into separate drafts, each addressing a separate = concern, > which will provide focus and make the problem being solved clearer: One = to > define an ECA framework. In this, clarify the invocation of actions, and > allow for tie-in of notifications. This would be this draft. Another on= e > to allow the definition of custom events/notifications, or smart filters > for push updates. (We should bring back the earlier draft.) A third one > to perhaps allow for the definition of =E2=80=9Ccustom RPCs=E2=80=9D that= allow to invoke > custom scripts/functions via Netconf/Restconf operations, then tie that , > which are then invoked using the regular RPC. (This would be a new draft= ) > > > > --- Alex > > > > *From:* netmod *On Behalf Of *Joel Jaeggli > *Sent:* Tuesday, February 18, 2020 8:44 AM > *To:* netmod@ietf.org > *Subject:* [netmod] Adoption poll for draft-wwx-netmod-event-yang > > > > This email begins a 2 week working group adoption poll for: > > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wwx-netmod-event-yang-06 > > > > > Please voice your support or objections before the poll completes on Marc= h > 3rd. > > > > Thanks > > joel > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > --000000000000b89bbd059f7e84d8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,


On Tue, Feb 25, 2020 at 5:57 PM Ale= xander Clemm <alex@futurewei.com> wrote:

In my view, an ECA model allows to define rules for = events =E2=80=93 conditions =E2=80=93 actions, i.e. what actions to perform= when an event occurs and a condition met.=C2=A0 A smart filter filters an = input stream, letting some objects pass but not others.=C2=A0 They are not the same.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

There is a connection in that you could define the p= assing of an object by a smart filter as an event.=C2=A0 So, it is conceiva= ble to include an ability to define events in this draft. If this is the in= tent it should be stated so clearly.=C2=A0 The question then becomes if you would want those be used also independently o= f the ECA model =E2=80=93 there may be benefit in defining a new event with= out tying it to a rule (i.e. a condition and action) but simply emitting it= .=C2=A0 (Same thing for the timer notification, which might have uses beyond ECA.) In the draft these things are all mashe= d together, but separating the ability to define an event from the ability = to specify an ECA rule (which refers to / is triggered by an event) can ben= efit reusability.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Anyway, as mentioned I think this work is relevant a= nd I would like to see it go forward; IMHO some reframing and perhaps split= ting of the draft should be considered whether that occurs before WG adopti= on or afterwards.=C2=A0

=C2=A0


<= /div>
I do not agree that refactoring this draft solves any adoption is= sues.
YANG-based management already has events (specified with no= tification-stmt).
The ECA data model should not duplicate other f= unctionality such as alarms.
Any event that can be received on an= event stream (RFC 8639) should automatically
be usable in any EC= A logic.=C2=A0 Working on a solution without agreement on even the most
basic ECA architecture or problem scope is a recipe for failure.

Programming with YANG data models as the logic for co= nditions and actions
has never been proven to work.=C2=A0 Even th= e trivial examples are complex
and real-world use-cases seem near= impossible. (nobody has ever provided one
so we have to speculat= e). Achieving interoperability with a workable solution
will not = be easy. Other solutions have got "Hello world" to work, declared= victory,
and then went away forever.=C2=A0 Why will this time be= different?


Andy





--- Alex

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Hi the authors,=

=C2=A0

>=E2=80=9CAn= other one to allow the definition of custom events/notifications, or smart = filters for push updates.=C2=A0 (We should bring back the earlier draft.)= =E2=80=9D

As we worked on= the smart filter before. We want to use the ECA model.

It seems this m= odel enabled the generic programmability. Can we just use it to program any= filter or what potentially need to augment/customize for a specific model?=

Thanks,<= u>

Tianran<= u>

=C2=A0

From: netmod [mailto:netmod-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Alexander Clemm
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2020 4:01 AM
To: Joel Jaeggli <joelja@bogus.com>; netmod@ietf.org Subject: Re: [netmod] Adoption poll for draft-wwx-netmod-event-yang<= u>

=C2=A0

Hi,

=C2=A0

I support this draft and would like to see netmod wo= rk on this, but I do think some aspects need more maturing and parts of thi= s probably should be rescoped.=C2=A0 Should the draft be adopted now, or sh= ould it be improved first and adopted later?=C2=A0 Not sure.=C2=A0 I would like to see the work continue, so in that sense I = would clearly like to see the work adopted; at the same=C2=A0 time there ar= e a number of issues that IMHO really need to be addressed.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

I share some of the concerns raised by Juergen and A= ndy.=C2=A0 Specifically, I think the precise problem needs to be defined mo= re clearly.=C2=A0 In the discussion it was mentioned RMON =E2=80=93 would i= t be that, or perhaps a better analogy Event MIB?=C2=A0 Section 3 mentions that this is to specify trigger conditions for when to send pus= h updates.=C2=A0 That is perhaps consistent with an Event MIB, but a slight= ly different problem from ECAs.=C2=A0 Section 4.2 then proceeds to allow fo= r the definition of =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 but really only defining a =E2=80=9Ctimer event=E2=80=9D, with the ECA model omitting= tie-in e.g. with notifications.=C2=A0 Including a threshold mechanism here= is a bit distracting and should perhaps be taken out =E2=80=93 while the c= rossing of a threshold might constitute an event, I don=E2=80=99t think this should be tied inside an ECA but be something that stands on its own.= =C2=A0 (The prior draft on Smart Filters for Push Updates addressed this = =E2=80=93 it has layed dormant for a while and in this sense I can=E2=80=99= t object for this work to be picked someplace else, but logically really it does not belong here but should be separate.)=C2=A0 Th= e actions, finally, describe not simply management operations.=C2=A0 I unde= rstand the intent is to have an escape mechanism allowing to =E2=80=9Ccall = out=E2=80=9D other functions / scripts deployed at a device, but this intent needs to be called out more clearly.=C2=A0 <= /p>

=C2=A0

So, in summary, I think the WG should consider resco= ping this draft a bit =E2=80=93 maybe divided into separate drafts, each ad= dressing a separate concern, which will provide focus and make the problem = being solved clearer:=C2=A0 One to define an ECA framework.=C2=A0 In this, clarify the invocation of actions, and allow for= tie-in of notifications.=C2=A0 This would be this draft.=C2=A0 Another one= to allow the definition of custom events/notifications, or smart filters f= or push updates.=C2=A0 (We should bring back the earlier draft.)=C2=A0 A third one to perhaps allow for the definition of =E2=80=9C= custom RPCs=E2=80=9D that allow to invoke custom scripts/functions via Netc= onf/Restconf operations, then tie that , which are then invoked using the r= egular RPC.=C2=A0 (This would be a new draft)=C2=A0

=C2=A0

--- Alex

=C2=A0

From: netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Joel Jaeggli
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2020 8:44 AM
To: netmod@ietf= .org
Subject: [netmod] Adoption poll for draft-wwx-netmod-event-yang

=C2=A0

This email begins a 2 week working group adoption po= ll for:

=C2=A0

Please voice your support or objections before the p= oll completes on March 3rd.

=C2=A0

Thanks

joel

_______________________________________________
netmod mailing list
netmod@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
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Joel,

Corrected statement -&=23160;No, I'm not aware of any IPR t= hat applies to this draft that has not been previously disclosed.&=23160;=

Cheers,
Jeff
On =46eb 26, 2020, 1:42 AM -0500, J= eff Tantsura <jefftant.ietf=40gmail.com>, wrote:
=EF= =BB=BFJoel,

No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft.

Cheers,
Jeff

On= =46eb 17, 2020, at 11:44, Joel Jaeggli <joelja=40bogus.com> wrote:=

No, I'm not aware of any IPR that applies to this draft
--5e573f7d_d34b6a8_ba8d-- From nobody Thu Feb 27 06:30:33 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51DB53A0A09 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 06:30:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yahoo.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PV4x3a5TYgnz for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 06:30:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from sonic301-31.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (sonic301-31.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [66.163.184.200]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2D6173A0A08 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 06:30:28 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1582813827; bh=6KRkqxlp1vpxir0nEAALkLd5gKUKN0i8XOVo+PrHFH4=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject; b=rfrjWAHWs+5qy0aBwz9SUdTkkozCsHBm2UUC3dS1foFn0Rw3TlK30SscvpJcoSJaEVnnqUfp6wUOiWahqMB/Q8ImutZU6ypaZvrJ1+gep8w42GZWoNf/ZkJiaQIG9aXVmZdqDvgvVvXenU+59IfpPevFXFqA5xTS8xsZRxk8Kh8YJnUgSalRVVEfZ8Ix2hJSQxiC44yJN0t3fzMTCp2k5kUuxDEI26elYjuS5gCwbcnky1QbQ3BA6STdZ5w6wkeVuQ/h6DzhndLZUx9/0xsvkWVoBAh61ZaNfynAVqtTfjGWsD/y/QAFrLXYukJNSMNbVZm7dYF8nn6N+DDdkwyYbg== X-YMail-OSG: ydaLkdQVM1ko3YYFYZRMBZzQvGtFf8JNZb7GXu1Y26VnxS9xpxWIeBmFUdYqdUV .PqwmLTt7v8g6qJh7wVCgxBEpEhxA1hHzfG_4lP0vPRydqdLgTdRBwoN5Un8hUeEDG3ECxA1X8bf J__8YqX9FTTG9Tf3_ghyRZWXM8sR7.N08_x0HlpXLft7m56eWcjLNKVYpqH8eSg9b4smT8LFiZLg Le1hAR57lnWIvjGtEVylYKQzpgoIuwQvF6NmKXH40tp4YfZ8TxlZj1_q5SrLRkSBm3JJMF7rjkUX wF8W2N649dHYFHPqjXr3BENfAtiSGdVogTCSsoExohEaVjpkmPkwpJN1bpunQsPCNZVbYO.0mavw 9WKBUkkE.vnnhU9m1DwRtlqwdtWZ8OczdN2lVbRb8rIhgQ2gLIVxTZSjZY6bZnFJq5exX.bxAZd2 .ebbj_QNfl7wFVP0b1qeDaN0gjmSrxZVvbrE2CZHd4sblG8SnotmIvMY5SpsnU8RdfOpHSMCiN6U 0y0ZJ6nCb2R57Lqd4qD2uzTmklafC7kUkz6OzikX.zh1TKybziLdIviA5ASJXt3RER0IdEv0UJzS XCfgC8Mobf5ZH6hqnS3jS3sEMA0lFaEDiE3R2Em6U5RSLuGrc2DYW4YVy2gqOdegSkYdxw2NfXgf UXC5O1OyxOL8YJ5A9JXK2WIJ6sMpefaRDIDosTlInQ8fptFdwK.C9UfzmtJ1Qz9t2yJCC77ocsGt GoKqRGOC1wvfYMJcRrmUViX_vuvZR_PY4uC87GRxuPa0wpgS3U9ydKyPxtWKCppG4BF.I7XyLgk. QM2WHcmNQOIA5O6x9pAtBP3yZhNRozLx3ckwcGsMeSkeiHsb.3fXitYIh.mz3oeXamD.gk8NFA4l Ha60s0U3nmAXkHxAvCt72ZKSwYxhdjr7BnuPuK._TvxvdeDu1O8qiV_NJCFlPgh1MziKx37CO9x. 868FtoApSCsfwr8ULEnGVbI7HxUhqxbHcckI7p606mL7tKXcGscZL.2w_SCUxrHDbU6jsVl2_V7K ao8wswM0iED7KR4N5_j6l3hd1YnsVl28A5FqfiHLiv6WuoYMfAoFL.YD0k4Hm80mLJTfVwMowe5N iY3DIre7wJ9COdmAyavLvWmakEimXMoCm8imnp22BnyOFcVa6D8UvmziJt5wOOcjYVS679FQJNAl OxSzHU_O1EXF4rLpWr5bb2vpLEhVEm_bEPRMFQaTXBm61op4GsjeYgEPMBg6Q2.TqHR2hgXc.vFG YcZNfsmntkfwlkwF0vJZ2Xq1zmXhDGdmCh_DvUJHDOoiUj04x8TC.ffRdT_iZ.FHUIdH3Yi.Kv4r 1GZJXqqO9ckDETmEbDshZpMINmeMx0wOeAoHszlBKpw-- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic301.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 14:30:27 +0000 Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 14:30:25 +0000 (UTC) From: Igor Bryskin To: Alexander Clemm , Andy Bierman Cc: "netmod@ietf.org" Message-ID: <125136191.1383787.1582813825889@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_1383786_1590471192.1582813825886" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.15302 YMailNorrin Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:59.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/59.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Adoption poll for draft-wwx-netmod-event-yang X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 14:30:32 -0000 ------=_Part_1383786_1590471192.1582813825886 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Andy, Jurgen, Alex and All, I believe that YANG could be a useful participant in a successful ECA frame= work if the following is kept in mind: 1. It is not feasible to realize an ECA framework relying solely on YANG.= =C2=A0 It is reasonable to expect ECA capable servers to support to a suffi= cient degree Xpath Expressions language and some sort of general purpose sc= ripting=C2=A0 environment , such as Python, JunoScript, TCL/TKL, etc.; 2. ECA YANG model should define (and/or use definitions produced by other Y= ANG models for) certain ECA components, such as Events, Policy Variables (P= Vs) and Actions (e.g. network re-configurations, client notifications, invo= king of RPCs, etc.), but everything to do with Conditions and logical and m= athematical expressions (which should be expected to be potentially very co= mplex), should be left to XPath (i.e. configured as XPath expression string= s). Although it is possible to define elementary micro conditions, it would= be impractical (too tedious) for the clients to build conditions hierarchi= cally (bottom up) and too cumbersome for the servers to process such constr= ucts; 3.Likewise, it would be too demanding to expect servers implementing interp= reters for specific purpose of interpretation of an ECA directly as it conf= igured in YANG. Rather , it would be prudent to expect a server, upon recei= ving an ECA configuration, to generate out of it a micro-script in a locall= y supported scripting language and arrange said micro-script execution at t= he moment of the Event (or timer) firing; 4. In short, the objective of the ECA YANG configuration is to provide a un= iversal ECA representation that could be converted into a micro-script of t= he server's choice. What do you think? Igor On Wednesday, February 26, 2020, 1:11:00 PM EST, Andy Bierman wrote: =20 =20 Hi, On Tue, Feb 25, 2020 at 5:57 PM Alexander Clemm wrote: In my view, an ECA model allows to define rules for events =E2=80=93 condit= ions =E2=80=93 actions, i.e. what actions to perform when an event occurs a= nd a condition met.=C2=A0 A smart filter filters an input stream, letting s= ome objects pass but not others.=C2=A0 They are not the same.=C2=A0=20 =C2=A0 There is a connection in that you could define the passing of an object by = a smart filter as an event.=C2=A0 So, it is conceivable to include an abili= ty to define events in this draft. If this is the intent it should be state= d so clearly.=C2=A0 The question then becomes if you would want those be us= ed also independently of the ECA model =E2=80=93 there may be benefit in de= fining a new event without tying it to a rule (i.e. a condition and action)= but simply emitting it..=C2=A0 (Same thing for the timer notification, whi= ch might have uses beyond ECA.) In the draft these things are all mashed to= gether, but separating the ability to define an event from the ability to s= pecify an ECA rule (which refers to / is triggered by an event) can benefit= reusability.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Anyway, as mentioned I think this work is relevant and I would like to see = it go forward; IMHO some reframing and perhaps splitting of the draft shoul= d be considered whether that occurs before WG adoption or afterwards.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I do not agree that refactoring this draft solves any adoption issues.YANG-= based management already has events (specified with notification-stmt).The = ECA data model should not duplicate other functionality such as alarms.Any = event that can be received on an event stream (RFC 8639) should automatical= lybe usable in any ECA logic.=C2=A0 Working on a solution without agreement= on even the mostbasic ECA architecture or problem scope is a recipe for fa= ilure. Programming with YANG data models as the logic for conditions and actionsha= s never been proven to work.=C2=A0 Even the trivial examples are complexand= real-world use-cases seem near impossible. (nobody has ever provided oneso= we have to speculate). Achieving interoperability with a workable solution= will not be easy. Other solutions have got "Hello world" to work, declared = victory,and then went away forever.=C2=A0 Why will this time be different? Andy --- Alex =C2=A0 From: Tianran Zhou =20 Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2020 4:44 PM To: Alexander Clemm ; Joel Jaeggli ; = netmod@ietf.org Subject: RE: [netmod] Adoption poll for draft-wwx-netmod-event-yang =C2=A0 Hi the authors, =C2=A0 >=E2=80=9CAnother one to allow the definition of custom events/notification= s, or smart filters for push updates.=C2=A0 (We should bring back the earli= er draft.)=E2=80=9D As we worked on the smart filter before. We want to use the ECA model. It seems this model enabled the generic programmability. Can we just use it= to program any filter or what potentially need to augment/customize for a = specific model? Thanks, Tianran =C2=A0 From: netmod [mailto:netmod-bounces@ietf.org]On Behalf Of Alexander Clemm Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2020 4:01 AM To: Joel Jaeggli ;netmod@ietf.org Subject: Re: [netmod] Adoption poll for draft-wwx-netmod-event-yang =C2=A0 Hi, =C2=A0 I support this draft and would like to see netmod work on this, but I do th= ink some aspects need more maturing and parts of this probably should be re= scoped.=C2=A0 Should the draft be adopted now, or should it be improved fir= st and adopted later?=C2=A0 Not sure.=C2=A0 I would like to see the work co= ntinue, so in that sense I would clearly like to see the work adopted; at t= he same=C2=A0 time there are a number of issues that IMHO really need to be= addressed.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I share some of the concerns raised by Juergen and Andy.=C2=A0 Specifically= , I think the precise problem needs to be defined more clearly.=C2=A0 In th= e discussion it was mentioned RMON =E2=80=93 would it be that, or perhaps a= better analogy Event MIB?=C2=A0 Section 3 mentions that this is to specify= trigger conditions for when to send push updates.=C2=A0 That is perhaps co= nsistent with an Event MIB, but a slightly different problem from ECAs.=C2= =A0 Section 4.2 then proceeds to allow for the definition of =E2=80=9Cevent= s=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 but really only defining a =E2=80=9Ctimer event=E2=80= =9D, with the ECA model omitting tie-in e.g. with notifications.=C2=A0 Incl= uding a threshold mechanism here is a bit distracting and should perhaps be= taken out =E2=80=93 while the crossing of a threshold might constitute an = event, I don=E2=80=99t think this should be tied inside an ECA but be somet= hing that stands on its own.=C2=A0 (The prior draft on Smart Filters for Pu= sh Updates addressed this =E2=80=93 it has layed dormant for a while and in= this sense I can=E2=80=99t object for this work to be picked someplace els= e, but logically really it does not belong here but should be separate.)=C2= =A0 The actions, finally, describe not simply management operations.=C2=A0 = I understand the intent is to have an escape mechanism allowing to =E2=80= =9Ccall out=E2=80=9D other functions / scripts deployed at a device, but th= is intent needs to be called out more clearly.=C2=A0=20 =C2=A0 So, in summary, I think the WG should consider rescoping this draft a bit = =E2=80=93 maybe divided into separate drafts, each addressing a separate co= ncern, which will provide focus and make the problem being solved clearer:= =C2=A0 One to define an ECA framework.=C2=A0 In this, clarify the invocatio= n of actions, and allow for tie-in of notifications.=C2=A0 This would be th= is draft.=C2=A0 Another one to allow the definition of custom events/notifi= cations, or smart filters for push updates.=C2=A0 (We should bring back the= earlier draft.)=C2=A0 A third one to perhaps allow for the definition of = =E2=80=9Ccustom RPCs=E2=80=9D that allow to invoke custom scripts/functions= via Netconf/Restconf operations, then tie that , which are then invoked us= ing the regular RPC.=C2=A0 (This would be a new draft)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 --- Alex =C2=A0 From: netmod On Behalf Of Joel Jaeggli Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2020 8:44 AM To: netmod@ietf..org Subject: [netmod] Adoption poll for draft-wwx-netmod-event-yang =C2=A0 This email begins a 2 week working group adoption poll for:=20 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wwx-netmod-event-yang-06 =C2=A0 Please voice your support or objections before the poll completes on March = 3rd. =C2=A0 Thanks joel _______________________________________________ netmod mailing list netmod@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod _______________________________________________ netmod mailing list netmod@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod =20 ------=_Part_1383786_1590471192.1582813825886 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Andy, Jurgen, Alex and All,

I believe that YANG could be a useful participa= nt in a successful ECA framework if the following is kept in mind:


1. It is not feasible to realize an ECA= framework relying solely on=20 YANG.  It is reasonable to expect ECA capable servers to support to a= =20 sufficient degree Xpath Expressions language and some sort of general=20 purpose scripting  environment , such as Python, JunoScript, TCL/TKL,= =20 etc.;

2. ECA YANG model should define= =20 (and/or use definitions produced by other YANG models for) certain ECA comp= onents, such as Events, Policy Variables (PVs) and=20 Actions (e.g. network re-configurations, client notifications, invoking=20 of RPCs, etc.), but everything to do with Conditions and logical and=20 mathematical expressions (which should be expected to be potentially=20 very complex), should be left to XPath (i.e. configured as XPath=20 expression strings). Although it is possible to define elementary micro=20 conditions, it would be impractical (too tedious) for the clients to=20 build conditions hierarchically (bottom up) and too cumbersome for the=20 servers to process such constructs;

3.Likewise, it=20 would be too demanding to expect servers implementing interpreters for=20 specific purpose of interpretation of an ECA directly as it configured=20 in YANG. Rather , it would be prudent to expect a server, upon receiving an ECA configuration, to generate out of it a micro-script in a locally supported scripting language and arrange said micro-script execution at the moment of the Event (or timer) firing;

4. In short, = the=20 objective of the ECA YANG configuration is to provide a universal ECA=20 representation that could be converted into a micro-script of the=20 server's choice.

What do= you think?

Igor


=20
=20
On Wednesday, February 26, 2020, 1:11:00 PM EST, Andy B= ierman <andy@yumaworks.com> wrote:


H= i,


On= Tue, Feb 25, 2020 at 5:57 PM Alexander Clemm <alex@futurewei.com> wrote:

In my view, an ECA model allows to defi= ne rules for events =E2=80=93 conditions =E2=80=93 actions, i.e. what actio= ns to perform when an event occurs and a condition met.  A smart filte= r filters an input stream, letting some objects pass but not others.  They are not the same. 

 

There is a connection in that you could= define the passing of an object by a smart filter as an event.  So, i= t is conceivable to include an ability to define events in this draft. If t= his is the intent it should be stated so clearly.  The question then becomes if you would want those be used also independently o= f the ECA model =E2=80=93 there may be benefit in defining a new event with= out tying it to a rule (i.e. a condition and action) but simply emitting it= ..  (Same thing for the timer notification, which might have uses beyond ECA.) In the draft these things are all mashe= d together, but separating the ability to define an event from the ability = to specify an ECA rule (which refers to / is triggered by an event) can ben= efit reusability. 

 

Anyway, as mentioned I think this work = is relevant and I would like to see it go forward; IMHO some reframing and = perhaps splitting of the draft should be considered whether that occurs bef= ore WG adoption or afterwards. 

 


I do not agree that refactoring this = draft solves any adoption issues.
YANG-based management already h= as events (specified with notification-stmt).
The ECA data model = should not duplicate other functionality such as alarms.
Any even= t that can be received on an event stream (RFC 8639) should automatically
be usable in any ECA logic.  Working on a solution without ag= reement on even the most
basic ECA architecture or problem scope = is a recipe for failure.

Programmin= g with YANG data models as the logic for conditions and actions
h= as never been proven to work.  Even the trivial examples are complex
and real-world use-cases seem near impossible. (nobody has ever pr= ovided one
so we have to speculate). Achieving interoperability w= ith a workable solution
will not be easy. Other solutions have go= t "Hello world" to work, declared victory,
and then went away for= ever.  Why will this time be different?

<= /div>

Andy





--- Alex

 

From: Tianran Zhou <zhoutianran@huawei.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2020 4:44 PM
To: Alexander Clemm <alex@futurewei.com>; Joel Jaeggli <joelja@bogus.com>; netmod@ietf.org
Subject: RE: [netmod] Adoption poll for draft-wwx-netmod-event-yang<= u>

 

H= i the authors,

<= u> 

&= gt;=E2=80=9CAnother one to allow the definition of custom events/notificati= ons, or smart filters for push updates.  (We should bring back the ear= lier draft.)=E2=80=9D

A= s we worked on the smart filter before. We want to use the ECA model.

I= t seems this model enabled the generic programmability. Can we just use it = to program any filter or what potentially need to augment/customize for a s= pecific model?

T= hanks,

T= ianran

<= u> 

 

Hi,

 

I support this draft and would like to = see netmod work on this, but I do think some aspects need more maturing and= parts of this probably should be rescoped.  Should the draft be adopt= ed now, or should it be improved first and adopted later?  Not sure.  I would like to see the work continue, so in that sense I = would clearly like to see the work adopted; at the same  time there ar= e a number of issues that IMHO really need to be addressed. 

 

I share some of the concerns raised by = Juergen and Andy.  Specifically, I think the precise problem needs to = be defined more clearly.  In the discussion it was mentioned RMON =E2= =80=93 would it be that, or perhaps a better analogy Event MIB?  Secti= on 3 mentions that this is to specify trigger conditions for when to send pus= h updates.  That is perhaps consistent with an Event MIB, but a slight= ly different problem from ECAs.  Section 4.2 then proceeds to allow fo= r the definition of =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 but really only defining a =E2=80=9Ctimer event=E2=80=9D, with the ECA model omitting= tie-in e.g. with notifications.  Including a threshold mechanism here= is a bit distracting and should perhaps be taken out =E2=80=93 while the c= rossing of a threshold might constitute an event, I don=E2=80=99t think this should be tied inside an ECA but be something that stands on its own.=   (The prior draft on Smart Filters for Push Updates addressed this = =E2=80=93 it has layed dormant for a while and in this sense I can=E2=80=99= t object for this work to be picked someplace else, but logically really it does not belong here but should be separate.)  Th= e actions, finally, describe not simply management operations.  I unde= rstand the intent is to have an escape mechanism allowing to =E2=80=9Ccall = out=E2=80=9D other functions / scripts deployed at a device, but this intent needs to be called out more clearly.  <= /p>

 

So, in summary, I think the WG should c= onsider rescoping this draft a bit =E2=80=93 maybe divided into separate dr= afts, each addressing a separate concern, which will provide focus and make= the problem being solved clearer:  One to define an ECA framework.  In this, clarify the invocation of actions, and allow for= tie-in of notifications.  This would be this draft.  Another one= to allow the definition of custom events/notifications, or smart filters f= or push updates.  (We should bring back the earlier draft.)  A third one to perhaps allow for the definition of =E2=80=9C= custom RPCs=E2=80=9D that allow to invoke custom scripts/functions via Netc= onf/Restconf operations, then tie that , which are then invoked using the r= egular RPC.  (This would be a new draft) 

 

--- Alex

 

From: netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org&g= t; On Behalf Of Joel Jaeggli
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2020 8:44 AM
To: netmod@ietf..org
Subject: [netmod] Adoption poll for draft-wwx-netmod-event-yang

 

This email begins a 2 week working grou= p adoption poll for:

&n= bsp;

Please voice your support or objections= before the poll completes on March 3rd.

&n= bsp;

Thanks

joel

_______________________________________________
netmod mailing list
netmod@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmo= d
_______________________________________________
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------=_Part_1383786_1590471192.1582813825886-- From nobody Thu Feb 27 14:13:23 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD2243A0D6B for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 14:13:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.787 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.787 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VEKIKgFYWjYR for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 14:13:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yw1-xc30.google.com (mail-yw1-xc30.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::c30]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C037F3A0D6A for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 14:13:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-yw1-xc30.google.com with SMTP id i126so1236505ywe.7 for ; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 14:13:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yumaworks-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=/rSo3APYVFuyUePHMeD7vgoeN2b6JZp5NxbdVosos5Y=; b=R/AwPC6oTnT4L/SaOvnwP7CSMZO/q6JgUSsZ95NxEPUvZLstLECYZVOuk60zoCjeVB PtAHj0KSZdT4bxQax8LPkT8mf8BWXLdVS04VyQLVHMfbsJfkdv5ItsjK3K7HliEbzAuN 8prNn71qkase8Mg0+zjB53eL4hYuhlB1wYHlDcII/mw5HlvvTjzg4EFJu711+u+4Tsxu +tinjnB+8PTEb/C6ff2UF872gY09L1/Y4mb5nv0Wo5671QlAl4UgZZOWkqnF8esn1BT0 aorJlpms7h0+4PJrDa+yLF4ItwrWri1BIIt1/yoilE5P1KQ/LIlxoDvxOfDpGT7w5xib 4Srw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=/rSo3APYVFuyUePHMeD7vgoeN2b6JZp5NxbdVosos5Y=; b=ZgLq7jQo/qO73xKR+ETnGoFzncZM4/Y4afq5/gJaXwHI8r2vYtLgl2iPKZZGomZiNE TqBbcSpbnIFj7FKV1+st8EdRATiUosl2uEUP33cqkkqcrQmFIfPF9kLGIHst/EuQMr1c ZYGA1NXxqOGMQw2nIM/5FSTkGHrsrL9H9oXakMb11fAyhzecmB1qJlJc3h4Q49HpIfpf OuyGY8P0K2/tnT4sGj+tZTg8zzPN1BUHjLsih12oCmObbp6HF6/3aJcr1FwZOgxtgdae ROA+iaupaHIBMlnVE5Ex9rRkDoh3dYYa08/R71scuzYAXDOvN7yU3l3+awf5aJ2afYs/ 0pRg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVzs9DeK/EvKoGK0yYle1gUZwpoIYcORP9yjOljVT5DfYjExarX JLSf96jPOP2q5tjOklyUMj1BrPYctCvGSo6MyyWLKQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxeZ5UVxziY0fQx7oPagvslAWtwerODeOMFJ8FCN3BCq50RS6iScE3PQXNUSziDi+6bHSh0H24KNOS6QtjR0l8= X-Received: by 2002:a25:bd85:: with SMTP id f5mr933398ybh.274.1582841597638; Thu, 27 Feb 2020 14:13:17 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <125136191.1383787.1582813825889@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <125136191.1383787.1582813825889@mail.yahoo.com> From: Andy Bierman Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 14:13:06 -0800 Message-ID: To: Igor Bryskin Cc: Alexander Clemm , "netmod@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000029d120059f9607c7" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] Adoption poll for draft-wwx-netmod-event-yang X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2020 22:13:22 -0000 --00000000000029d120059f9607c7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Feb 27, 2020 at 6:30 AM Igor Bryskin wrote: > Hi Andy, Jurgen, Alex and All, > > I believe that YANG could be a useful participant in a successful ECA > framework if the following is kept in mind: > > > 1. It is not feasible to realize an ECA framework relying solely on YANG. > It is reasonable to expect ECA capable servers to support to a sufficient > degree Xpath Expressions language and some sort of general purpose > scripting environment , such as Python, JunoScript, TCL/TKL, etc.; > > I think some constrained scripting is required. It is important that the WG understand the boundaries between interoperability and implementation choice. > 2. ECA YANG model should define (and/or use definitions produced by other > YANG models for) certain ECA components, such as Events, Policy Variables > (PVs) and Actions (e.g. network re-configurations, client notifications, > invoking of RPCs, etc.), but everything to do with Conditions and logical > and mathematical expressions (which should be expected to be potentially > very complex), should be left to XPath (i.e. configured as XPath expressi= on > strings). Although it is possible to define elementary micro conditions, = it > would be impractical (too tedious) for the clients to build conditions > hierarchically (bottom up) and too cumbersome for the servers to process > such constructs; > XPath + PVs + new XPath functions might work. Can this be done without reinventing components like alarms? It would be way better to integrate existing models than create new ones within ECA. For example: event =3D=3D generation of RFC 8632 event condition =3D=3D script to extract relevant fields from event and check condition action =3D=3D script to use extracted fields from condition to send comm= ands to server If the event stream management and event field extraction is standardized (with YANG objects) then that would help a lot. Access to metadata from the execution environment (e,g, server) is also important to standardize. > 3.Likewise, it would be too demanding to expect servers implementing > interpreters for specific purpose of interpretation of an ECA directly as > it configured in YANG. Rather , it would be prudent to expect a server, > upon receiving an ECA configuration, to generate out of it a micro-script > in a locally supported scripting language and arrange said micro-script > execution at the moment of the Event (or timer) firing; > > This approach could help. The "send RPC command" solution is too simplistic. Maybe psuedo-code would work better. Even a simple "edit" can be very different on each server (e.g., candidate, running, defaults) > 4. In short, the objective of the ECA YANG configuration is to provide a > universal ECA representation that could be converted into a micro-script = of > the server's choice. > > The implementation details are always a server choice. I agree that mechanisms to bind ECA components to real scripting languages has more promise than using YANG objects entirely, or creating a new scripting language. What do you think? > > Igor > > Andy > > > On Wednesday, February 26, 2020, 1:11:00 PM EST, Andy Bierman < > andy@yumaworks.com> wrote: > > > Hi, > > > On Tue, Feb 25, 2020 at 5:57 PM Alexander Clemm > wrote: > > In my view, an ECA model allows to define rules for events =E2=80=93 cond= itions =E2=80=93 > actions, i.e. what actions to perform when an event occurs and a conditio= n > met. A smart filter filters an input stream, letting some objects pass b= ut > not others. They are not the same. > > > > There is a connection in that you could define the passing of an object b= y > a smart filter as an event. So, it is conceivable to include an ability = to > define events in this draft. If this is the intent it should be stated so > clearly. The question then becomes if you would want those be used also > independently of the ECA model =E2=80=93 there may be benefit in defining= a new > event without tying it to a rule (i.e. a condition and action) but simply > emitting it.. (Same thing for the timer notification, which might have > uses beyond ECA.) In the draft these things are all mashed together, but > separating the ability to define an event from the ability to specify an > ECA rule (which refers to / is triggered by an event) can benefit > reusability. > > > > Anyway, as mentioned I think this work is relevant and I would like to se= e > it go forward; IMHO some reframing and perhaps splitting of the draft > should be considered whether that occurs before WG adoption or afterwards= . > > > > > I do not agree that refactoring this draft solves any adoption issues. > YANG-based management already has events (specified with > notification-stmt). > The ECA data model should not duplicate other functionality such as alarm= s. > Any event that can be received on an event stream (RFC 8639) should > automatically > be usable in any ECA logic. Working on a solution without agreement on > even the most > basic ECA architecture or problem scope is a recipe for failure. > > Programming with YANG data models as the logic for conditions and actions > has never been proven to work. Even the trivial examples are complex > and real-world use-cases seem near impossible. (nobody has ever provided > one > so we have to speculate). Achieving interoperability with a workable > solution > will not be easy. Other solutions have got "Hello world" to work, declare= d > victory, > and then went away forever. Why will this time be different? > > > Andy > > > > > > --- Alex > > > > *From:* Tianran Zhou > *Sent:* Tuesday, February 25, 2020 4:44 PM > *To:* Alexander Clemm ; Joel Jaeggli ; > netmod@ietf.org > *Subject:* RE: [netmod] Adoption poll for draft-wwx-netmod-event-yang > > > > Hi the authors, > > > > >=E2=80=9CAnother one to allow the definition of custom events/notificati= ons, or > smart filters for push updates. (We should bring back the earlier draft.= )=E2=80=9D > > As we worked on the smart filter before. We want to use the ECA model. > > It seems this model enabled the generic programmability. Can we just use > it to program any filter or what potentially need to augment/customize fo= r > a specific model? > > Thanks, > > Tianran > > > > *From:* netmod [mailto:netmod-bounces@ietf.org ]= *On > Behalf Of *Alexander Clemm > *Sent:* Wednesday, February 26, 2020 4:01 AM > *To:* Joel Jaeggli ; netmod@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [netmod] Adoption poll for draft-wwx-netmod-event-yang > > > > Hi, > > > > I support this draft and would like to see netmod work on this, but I do > think some aspects need more maturing and parts of this probably should b= e > rescoped. Should the draft be adopted now, or should it be improved firs= t > and adopted later? Not sure. I would like to see the work continue, so = in > that sense I would clearly like to see the work adopted; at the same tim= e > there are a number of issues that IMHO really need to be addressed. > > > > I share some of the concerns raised by Juergen and Andy. Specifically, I > think the precise problem needs to be defined more clearly. In the > discussion it was mentioned RMON =E2=80=93 would it be that, or perhaps a= better > analogy Event MIB? Section 3 mentions that this is to specify trigger > conditions for when to send push updates. That is perhaps consistent wit= h > an Event MIB, but a slightly different problem from ECAs. Section 4.2 th= en > proceeds to allow for the definition of =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D =E2=80= =93 but really only defining > a =E2=80=9Ctimer event=E2=80=9D, with the ECA model omitting tie-in e.g. = with > notifications. Including a threshold mechanism here is a bit distracting > and should perhaps be taken out =E2=80=93 while the crossing of a thresho= ld might > constitute an event, I don=E2=80=99t think this should be tied inside an = ECA but be > something that stands on its own. (The prior draft on Smart Filters for > Push Updates addressed this =E2=80=93 it has layed dormant for a while an= d in this > sense I can=E2=80=99t object for this work to be picked someplace else, b= ut > logically really it does not belong here but should be separate.) The > actions, finally, describe not simply management operations. I understan= d > the intent is to have an escape mechanism allowing to =E2=80=9Ccall out= =E2=80=9D other > functions / scripts deployed at a device, but this intent needs to be > called out more clearly. > > > > So, in summary, I think the WG should consider rescoping this draft a bit > =E2=80=93 maybe divided into separate drafts, each addressing a separate = concern, > which will provide focus and make the problem being solved clearer: One = to > define an ECA framework. In this, clarify the invocation of actions, and > allow for tie-in of notifications. This would be this draft. Another on= e > to allow the definition of custom events/notifications, or smart filters > for push updates. (We should bring back the earlier draft.) A third one > to perhaps allow for the definition of =E2=80=9Ccustom RPCs=E2=80=9D that= allow to invoke > custom scripts/functions via Netconf/Restconf operations, then tie that , > which are then invoked using the regular RPC. (This would be a new draft= ) > > > > --- Alex > > > > *From:* netmod *On Behalf Of *Joel Jaeggli > *Sent:* Tuesday, February 18, 2020 8:44 AM > *To:* netmod@ietf..org > *Subject:* [netmod] Adoption poll for draft-wwx-netmod-event-yang > > > > This email begins a 2 week working group adoption poll for: > > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-wwx-netmod-event-yang-06 > > > > > Please voice your support or objections before the poll completes on Marc= h > 3rd. > > > > Thanks > > joel > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > --00000000000029d120059f9607c7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Thu, Feb 27, 2020 at 6:30 AM Igor = Bryskin <i_brys= kin@yahoo.com> wrote:
Hi Andy, Jurgen, Alex a= nd All,

I believe that YANG could be a useful = participant in a successful ECA framework if the following is kept in mind:=


1. It is not feasible to reali= ze an ECA framework relying solely on=20 YANG.=C2=A0 It is reasonable to expect ECA capable servers to support to a= =20 sufficient degree Xpath Expressions language and some sort of general=20 purpose scripting=C2=A0 environment , such as Python, JunoScript, TCL/TKL,= =20 etc.;

<= div>
I think some constrained scripting is required.
It is important that the WG understand the boundaries between interoperab= ility
and implementation choice.

=C2=A0<= /div>
2. ECA YANG m= odel should define=20 (and/or use definitions produced by other YANG models for) certain ECA comp= onents, such as Events, Policy Variables (PVs) and=20 Actions (e.g. network re-configurations, client notifications, invoking=20 of RPCs, etc.), but everything to do with Conditions and logical and=20 mathematical expressions (which should be expected to be potentially=20 very complex), should be left to XPath (i.e. configured as XPath=20 expression strings). Although it is possible to define elementary micro=20 conditions, it would be impractical (too tedious) for the clients to=20 build conditions hierarchically (bottom up) and too cumbersome for the=20 servers to process such constructs;


XPath=C2=A0+=C2=A0 PVs=C2=A0+ new= XPath functions might work.
Can this be done without reinventing= components like alarms?
It would be way better to integrate exis= ting models than create new ones within ECA.
For example:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0event =3D=3D generation of RFC 8632 <alar= m-notification> event
=C2=A0 =C2=A0condition =3D=3D script to = extract relevant fields from event and check condition
=C2=A0 =C2= =A0action =3D=3D script to use extracted fields from condition to send comm= ands to server

If the event stream management and = event field extraction is standardized (with YANG objects)
then t= hat would help a lot. Access to metadata from the execution environment (e,= g, server) is also
important to standardize.

=


3.Likewise, it=20 would be too demanding to expect servers implementing interpreters for=20 specific purpose of interpretation of an ECA directly as it configured=20 in YANG. Rather , it would be prudent to expect a server, upon receiving an ECA configuration, to generate out of it a micro-script in a locally supported scripting language and arrange said micro-script execution at the moment of the Event (or timer) firing;

=

This approach could help.
= The "send RPC command" solution is too simplistic.
Mayb= e psuedo-code would work better.
Even a simple "edit" c= an be very different on each server (e.g., candidate, running, defaults)

=C2=A0
4. In short, the=20 objective of the ECA YANG configuration is to provide a universal ECA=20 representation that could be converted into a micro-script of the=20 server's choice.

=

The implementation details are alway= s a server choice.
I agree that mechanisms to bind ECA components= =C2=A0to real scripting languages
has more promise than using YAN= G objects entirely, or creating a new scripting language.


What do you think?

Igor


Andy
=C2=A0


=20
=20
On Wednesday, February 26, 2020, 1:11:00 PM EST, Andy B= ierman <andy@yum= aworks.com> wrote:


Hi,


On = Tue, Feb 25, 2020 at 5:57 PM Alexander Clemm <alex@futurew= ei.com> wrote:

In my view, an ECA model allows to define rules for events =E2=80=93 con= ditions =E2=80=93 actions, i.e. what actions to perform when an event occur= s and a condition met.=C2=A0 A smart filter filters an input stream, lettin= g some objects pass but not others.=C2=A0 They are not the same.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

There is a connection in that you could define the passing of an object = by a smart filter as an event.=C2=A0 So, it is conceivable to include an ab= ility to define events in this draft. If this is the intent it should be st= ated so clearly.=C2=A0 The question then becomes if you would want those be used also independently o= f the ECA model =E2=80=93 there may be benefit in defining a new event with= out tying it to a rule (i.e. a condition and action) but simply emitting it= ..=C2=A0 (Same thing for the timer notification, which might have uses beyond ECA.) In the draft these things are all mashe= d together, but separating the ability to define an event from the ability = to specify an ECA rule (which refers to / is triggered by an event) can ben= efit reusability.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Anyway, as mentioned I think this work is relevant and I would like to s= ee it go forward; IMHO some reframing and perhaps splitting of the draft sh= ould be considered whether that occurs before WG adoption or afterwards.=C2= =A0

=C2=A0


=
I do not agree that refactoring this draft solves any adoption issues.=
YANG-based management already has events (specified with notific= ation-stmt).
The ECA data model should not duplicate other functi= onality such as alarms.
Any event that can be received on an even= t stream (RFC 8639) should automatically
be usable in any ECA log= ic.=C2=A0 Working on a solution without agreement on even the most
basic ECA architecture or problem scope is a recipe for failure.

Programming with YANG data models as the lo= gic for conditions and actions
has never been proven to work.=C2= =A0 Even the trivial examples are complex
and real-world use-case= s seem near impossible. (nobody has ever provided one
so we have = to speculate). Achieving interoperability with a workable solution
will not be easy. Other solutions have got "Hello world" to wor= k, declared victory,
and then went away forever.=C2=A0 Why will t= his time be different?


Andy





--- Alex

=C2=A0

From: Tianran Zhou <zhoutianran@huawei.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 25, 2020 4:44 PM
To: Alexander Clemm <alex@futurewei.com>; Joe= l Jaeggli <joelja@bogus.com>; netmod@ietf.or= g
Subject: RE: [netmod] Adoption poll for draft-wwx-netmod-event-yang<= u>

=C2=A0

Hi the authors,

=C2=A0

>=E2=80=9CAnother one to allow t= he definition of custom events/notifications, or smart filters for push upd= ates.=C2=A0 (We should bring back the earlier draft.)=E2=80=9D

As we worked on the smart filter be= fore. We want to use the ECA model.

It seems this model enabled the gen= eric programmability. Can we just use it to program any filter or what pote= ntially need to augment/customize for a specific model?

Thanks,

Tianran

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Hi,

=C2=A0

I support this draft and would like to see netmod work on this, but I do= think some aspects need more maturing and parts of this probably should be= rescoped.=C2=A0 Should the draft be adopted now, or should it be improved = first and adopted later?=C2=A0 Not sure.=C2=A0 I would like to see the work continue, so in that sense I = would clearly like to see the work adopted; at the same=C2=A0 time there ar= e a number of issues that IMHO really need to be addressed.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

I share some of the concerns raised by Juergen and Andy.=C2=A0 Specifica= lly, I think the precise problem needs to be defined more clearly.=C2=A0 In= the discussion it was mentioned RMON =E2=80=93 would it be that, or perhap= s a better analogy Event MIB?=C2=A0 Section 3 mentions that this is to specify trigger conditions for when to send pus= h updates.=C2=A0 That is perhaps consistent with an Event MIB, but a slight= ly different problem from ECAs.=C2=A0 Section 4.2 then proceeds to allow fo= r the definition of =E2=80=9Cevents=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 but really only defining a =E2=80=9Ctimer event=E2=80=9D, with the ECA model omitting= tie-in e.g. with notifications.=C2=A0 Including a threshold mechanism here= is a bit distracting and should perhaps be taken out =E2=80=93 while the c= rossing of a threshold might constitute an event, I don=E2=80=99t think this should be tied inside an ECA but be something that stands on its own.= =C2=A0 (The prior draft on Smart Filters for Push Updates addressed this = =E2=80=93 it has layed dormant for a while and in this sense I can=E2=80=99= t object for this work to be picked someplace else, but logically really it does not belong here but should be separate.)=C2=A0 Th= e actions, finally, describe not simply management operations.=C2=A0 I unde= rstand the intent is to have an escape mechanism allowing to =E2=80=9Ccall = out=E2=80=9D other functions / scripts deployed at a device, but this intent needs to be called out more clearly.=C2=A0 <= /p>

=C2=A0

So, in summary, I think the WG should consider rescoping this draft a bi= t =E2=80=93 maybe divided into separate drafts, each addressing a separate = concern, which will provide focus and make the problem being solved clearer= :=C2=A0 One to define an ECA framework.=C2=A0 In this, clarify the invocation of actions, and allow for= tie-in of notifications.=C2=A0 This would be this draft.=C2=A0 Another one= to allow the definition of custom events/notifications, or smart filters f= or push updates.=C2=A0 (We should bring back the earlier draft.)=C2=A0 A third one to perhaps allow for the definition of =E2=80=9C= custom RPCs=E2=80=9D that allow to invoke custom scripts/functions via Netc= onf/Restconf operations, then tie that , which are then invoked using the r= egular RPC.=C2=A0 (This would be a new draft)=C2=A0

=C2=A0

--- Alex

=C2=A0

From: netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org>= ; On Behalf Of Joel Jaeggli
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2020 8:44 AM
To: netmod@ietf..org
Subject: [netmod] Adoption poll for draft-wwx-netmod-event-yang

=C2=A0

This email begins a 2 week working group adoption poll for:

=C2=A0

Please voice your support or objections before the poll completes on Mar= ch 3rd.

=C2=A0

Thanks

joel

_______________________________________________
netmod mailing list
netmod@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmo= d
________________= _______________________________
netmod mailing list
netmod@ietf.org
https://www.ietf= .org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
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Feb 2020 22:05:52 +0000 From: Yingzhen Qu To: Jeff Tantsura , Joel Jaeggli CC: "draft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff@ietf.org" , "netmod@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: draft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff - IPR verfication request Thread-Index: AQHV7G/r5vS8TAKXHUixq6Qk9k9gZqgwp36A Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 22:05:52 +0000 Message-ID: <10B472F9-4F8C-4773-B23A-1EC80C4D61D3@futurewei.com> References: <95377678-1417-4C30-BAD5-16E8DABE9360@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <95377678-1417-4C30-BAD5-16E8DABE9360@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=yingzhen.qu@futurewei.com; x-originating-ip: [12.111.81.71] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 2de5a941-cf75-4be4-528f-08d7bc9a6074 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BY5PR13MB3221: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:7691; x-forefront-prvs: 0327618309 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; 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X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 28 Feb 2020 22:05:52.3217 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 0fee8ff2-a3b2-4018-9c75-3a1d5591fedc X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: HGCSZGefDdiaLFMn2Nq+zLmeQxS+LDCiKtnVqdK+C6SirNgnxkuNmN7sm1oJZXPgZE9CGUjAGwCx00SUmmvFEg== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BY5PR13MB3221 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [netmod] draft-ietf-netmod-nmda-diff - IPR verfication request X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 22:05:58 -0000 SSdtIG5vdCBhd2FyZSBvZiBhbnkgSVBSIGJlc2lkZXMgdGhlIG9uZSBkaXNjbG9zZWQuDQoNClRo YW5rcywNCllpbmd6aGVuDQoNCg0K77u/T24gMi8yNS8yMCwgMTA6NDIgUE0sICJKZWZmIFRhbnRz dXJhIiA8amVmZnRhbnQuaWV0ZkBnbWFpbC5jb20+IHdyb3RlOg0KDQogICAgSm9lbCwNCiAgICAN CiAgICBObywgSSdtIG5vdCBhd2FyZSBvZiBhbnkgSVBSIHRoYXQgYXBwbGllcyB0byB0aGlzIGRy YWZ0Lg0KICAgIA0KICAgIENoZWVycywNCiAgICBKZWZmDQogICAgDQogICAgPiBPbiBGZWIgMTcs IDIwMjAsIGF0IDExOjQ0LCBKb2VsIEphZWdnbGkgPGpvZWxqYUBib2d1cy5jb20+IHdyb3RlOg0K ICAgID4gDQogICAgPiBObywgSSdtIG5vdCBhd2FyZSBvZiBhbnkgSVBSIHRoYXQgYXBwbGllcyB0 byB0aGlzIGRyYWZ0DQogICAgDQoNCg== From nobody Fri Feb 28 14:36:00 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietf.org Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EBBC3A1F79; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 14:35:01 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "\"IETF Secretariat\"" To: , Cc: ibagdona@gmail.com, netmod@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.119.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <158292930103.19931.11094715138755998649@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 14:35:01 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [netmod] netmod - Requested sessions have been scheduled for IETF 107 X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2020 22:35:08 -0000 Dear Joel Jaeggli, The session(s) that you have requested have been scheduled. Below is the scheduled session information followed by the original request. netmod Session 1 (2:00 requested) Monday, 23 March 2020, Afternoon Session I 1330-1530 Room Name: Plaza B/C size: 300 --------------------------------------------- netmod Session 2 (1:00 requested) Monday, 23 March 2020, Afternoon Session III 1810-1910 Room Name: Regency E size: 150 --------------------------------------------- iCalendar: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/107/sessions/netmod.ics Request Information: --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: Network Modeling Area Name: Operations and Management Area Session Requester: Joel Jaeggli Number of Sessions: 2 Length of Session(s): 2 Hours, 1 Hour Number of Attendees: 100 Conflicts to Avoid: Chair Conflict: netconf Technology Overlap: rtgwg i2rs teas Key Participant Conflict: saag People who must be present: Ignas Bagdonas Kent Watsen Joel Jaeggli Lou Berger Robert Wilton Resources Requested: Special Requests: Please place the first session in the first half of the week (i.e., M-W). --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Fri Feb 28 23:21:28 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: netmod@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0381A3A0A75; Fri, 28 Feb 2020 23:21:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com header.b=eswxKu6t; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.onmicrosoft.com header.b=cUelNR3V Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost 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15.20.2772.012; Sat, 29 Feb 2020 07:21:17 +0000 From: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" To: "netmod@ietf.org" , "netmod-chairs@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Version selection draft posted Thread-Index: AdXuz2bmAhyGvMGQSleOvBvTWXwOSQ== Date: Sat, 29 Feb 2020 07:21:17 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=rwilton@cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [82.15.79.32] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 06c70fea-4325-4e91-0b73-08d7bce7f7b6 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: MN2PR11MB4143: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; x-forefront-prvs: 03283976A6 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; 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ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2784A3A0957; Sat, 29 Feb 2020 18:44:34 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: netmod@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.119.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: netmod@ietf.org Message-ID: <158303067398.4958.9535195772318793074@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 29 Feb 2020 18:44:34 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [netmod] I-D Action: draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags-10.txt X-BeenThere: netmod@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: NETMOD WG list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2020 02:44:35 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Network Modeling WG of the IETF. Title : YANG Module Tags Authors : Christian Hopps Lou Berger Dean Bogdanovic Filename : draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags-10.txt Pages : 18 Date : 2020-02-29 Abstract: This document provides for the association of tags with YANG modules. The expectation is for such tags to be used to help classify and organize modules. A method for defining, reading and writing a modules tags is provided. Tags may be registered and assigned during module definition; assigned by implementations; or dynamically defined and set by users. This document also provides guidance to future model writers; as such, this document updates RFC8407. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags-10 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags-10 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-netmod-module-tags-10 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/