Return-Path: Received: by mumm.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA08308 for nmrg-outgoing; Wed, 30 Aug 2000 00:45:00 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from rip.psg.com (rip.psg.com [147.28.0.39]) by mumm.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA08303; Wed, 30 Aug 2000 00:44:58 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from randy by rip.psg.com with local (Exim 3.13 #1) id 13Tu7l-000Dwv-00; Tue, 29 Aug 2000 15:44:57 -0700 From: Randy Bush MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Juergen Schoenwaelder Cc: Network Management Research Group Subject: Re: [nmrg] [kzm@cisco.com: Re: sming/sppi/smiv2 integration meeting details] References: <200008292015.WAA04196@henkell.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de> Message-Id: Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 15:44:57 -0700 Sender: owner-nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Precedence: bulk Status: O Content-Length: 50 Lines: 3 my experience is take the train, it works. randy Return-Path: Received: by mumm.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA02873 for nmrg-outgoing; Tue, 29 Aug 2000 22:16:01 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from henkell.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (schoenw@henkell [134.169.34.191]) by mumm.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA02868; Tue, 29 Aug 2000 22:15:59 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from schoenw@localhost by henkell.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.7.6/tubsibr) id WAA04217; Tue, 29 Aug 2000 22:15:59 +0200 Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 22:15:59 +0200 Message-Id: <200008292015.WAA04217@henkell.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de> From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: Network Management Research Group Subject: [nmrg] [kzm@cisco.com: Re: sming/sppi/smiv2 integration meeting details] Sender: owner-nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Precedence: bulk Status: O Content-Length: 1615 Lines: 48 Another response from Keith. ------- Start of forwarded message ------- From: Keith McCloghrie Subject: Re: sming/sppi/smiv2 integration meeting details To: schoenw@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (Juergen Schoenwaelder) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 13:08:24 -0700 (PDT) Cc: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de, kzm@cisco.com, david.durham@intel.com, abierman@cisco.com In-Reply-To: <200008291954.VAA02880@henkell.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de> from "Juergen Schoenwaelder" at Aug 29, 2000 09:54:07 PM > Keith> option b) would be best, if you can resolve it quickly. > > I can try option b) tomorrow (although it will probably eat up at > least half of the day) and see whether I can arrange something in > Mannheim or so. > > Keith> option c) would be OK, if it's within driving distance. > > And this is hard to judge for me since I am obviously biased (and I > would take the train anyway since this is the most comfortable way to > travel from Frankfurt to Braunschweig) - unless you are really keen on > driving German highways. Yes, it seems to be too far. Keith. > Keith> Otherwise, I guess it's option a), but I hope I don't have to > Keith> sleep in the car :-(. > > Yes, we still have the option to rent a caravan or a big tent as the > ultimate fallback solution. :-) > > /js > > -- > Juergen Schoenwaelder Technical University Braunschweig > Dept. Operating Systems & Computer Networks > Phone: +49 531 391 3289 Bueltenweg 74/75, 38106 Braunschweig, Germany > Fax: +49 531 391 5936 > > > ------- End of forwarded message ------- Return-Path: Received: by mumm.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA02856 for nmrg-outgoing; Tue, 29 Aug 2000 22:15:47 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from henkell.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (schoenw@henkell [134.169.34.191]) by mumm.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA02851; Tue, 29 Aug 2000 22:15:45 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from schoenw@localhost by henkell.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.7.6/tubsibr) id WAA04196; Tue, 29 Aug 2000 22:15:45 +0200 Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 22:15:45 +0200 Message-Id: <200008292015.WAA04196@henkell.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de> From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: Network Management Research Group Subject: [nmrg] [kzm@cisco.com: Re: sming/sppi/smiv2 integration meeting details] Sender: owner-nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Precedence: bulk Status: O Content-Length: 4041 Lines: 95 A response from Keith. ------- Start of forwarded message ------- From: Keith McCloghrie Subject: Re: sming/sppi/smiv2 integration meeting details To: schoenw@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (Juergen Schoenwaelder) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 12:21:24 -0700 (PDT) Cc: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (Network Management Research Group), kzm@cisco.com (Keith McCloghrie), david.durham@intel.com (David Durham), abierman@cisco.com (Andy Bierman) In-Reply-To: <200008291515.RAA27687@henkell.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de> from "Juergen Schoenwaelder" at Aug 29, 2000 05:15:57 PM I currently have a reservation for a rental car from Frankfurt airport. I'd be happy to drive anywhere within a few hours from Frankfurt. Does that rules out Braunschweig ?? On the one hand, if the 3 hours by high-speed train is non-stop, then it's presumably more than 3 hours by car. On the other hand, it looks on the map as if it's about 150-200 miles, which on the autobahns I presume could be less than 3 hours ?? I checked http://bahn.hafas.de, and for my return on Saturday, I'd have to get a train on the Friday evening, and stay overnight in Frankfurt. That doesn't seem like the best option to me. So, option b) would be best, if you can resolve it quickly. option c) would be OK, if it's within driving distance. Otherwise, I guess it's option a), but I hope I don't have to sleep in the car :-(. Keith. > Folks, the organization of the meeting scheduled for next week turns > out to be more complicated than expected. Here is the current > situation: > > The German National Research Center for Information Technology (GMD) > has volunteered to host the 7th NMRG meeting. This moves the meeting > to Darmstadt, a city very close to the Frankfurt airport. They seem > to have greate meeting facilities. > > When I tried to get hotel information, I learned that there is a big > exhibition in Frankfurt in the first week of September. Due to this > exhibition, all hotels in the greater Frankfurt area (including the > Darmstadt area) seem to be booked. In fact, a guy from the tourist > office told me that people are already booking rooms in cities like > Mannheim or Heidelberg (which is about 1 hour away if you take the > high-speed trains). > > So we now have three options: > > (a) Use the meeting facilities provided by the GMD in Darmstadt and > let everyone try his luck to find a place to stay. This may result > in a situation where folks have to spend traveling time each day > to reach the meeting place. > > (b) Try to move the meeting a little bit further away from the > Frankfurt area (e.g. into the Mannheim area). Not sure yet how > difficult it will be to find a host and to get hotel rooms there. > > (c) Change our original plan to hold the meeting in the Frankfurt area > and move the meeting to Braunschweig where I am located. It takes > about 3 hours to get from Frankfurt to Braunschweig with the high > speed trains. However, once you are in Braunschweig, we have > enough hotel space (just checked) and everything is reachable > within a small distance. > > Please let me know asap which option you prefer. Of course, option (c) > is the easiest to deal with for me. If folks from the US prefer option > (b), then I am willing to investigate this further tomorrow. So please > drop me a note quickly. > > [BTW, you can get travel information from the German railways by going > to and entering "Frankfurt Airport FRA" > as the starting point and Braunschweig as the destination. Choose > the date and time to check whether there is a train directly > connecting your flight.] > > /js > > -- > Juergen Schoenwaelder Technical University Braunschweig > Dept. Operating Systems & Computer Networks > Phone: +49 531 391 3289 Bueltenweg 74/75, 38106 Braunschweig, Germany > Fax: +49 531 391 5936 > > > ------- End of forwarded message ------- Return-Path: Received: by mumm.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA28941 for nmrg-outgoing; Tue, 29 Aug 2000 21:54:15 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from henkell.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (schoenw@henkell [134.169.34.191]) by mumm.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA28875; Tue, 29 Aug 2000 21:54:07 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from schoenw@localhost by henkell.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.7.6/tubsibr) id VAA02880; Tue, 29 Aug 2000 21:54:07 +0200 Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 21:54:07 +0200 Message-Id: <200008291954.VAA02880@henkell.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de> From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de CC: kzm@cisco.com, david.durham@intel.com, abierman@cisco.com In-reply-to: <200008291921.MAA03368@ups.cisco.com> (message from Keith McCloghrie on Tue, 29 Aug 2000 12:21:24 -0700 (PDT)) Subject: [nmrg] Re: sming/sppi/smiv2 integration meeting details References: <200008291921.MAA03368@ups.cisco.com> Sender: owner-nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Precedence: bulk Status: O Content-Length: 1954 Lines: 50 >>>>> Keith McCloghrie writes: Keith> I currently have a reservation for a rental car from Frankfurt Keith> airport. I'd be happy to drive anywhere within a few hours Keith> from Frankfurt. Does that rules out Braunschweig ?? Depends on your car and your driving style since we do not have so strict speed limits in Germany. ;-) keith> On the one hand, if the 3 hours by high-speed train is keith> non-stop, then it's presumably more than 3 hours by car. On keith> the other hand, it looks on the map as if it's about 150-200 keith> miles, which on the autobahns I presume could be less than 3 keith> hours ?? My map says that the distance between Frankfurt and Braunschweig is 338 km (= 210 miles) and the travel time by car (without any stops) is estimated as 3.5 hours. You can go faster if the traffic allows. (You can also go much slower if traffic does not allow.) Note that the trains run up to 250 km/h (= 155 mph) which is hard to beat. Keith> option b) would be best, if you can resolve it quickly. I can try option b) tomorrow (although it will probably eat up at least half of the day) and see whether I can arrange something in Mannheim or so. Keith> option c) would be OK, if it's within driving distance. And this is hard to judge for me since I am obviously biased (and I would take the train anyway since this is the most comfortable way to travel from Frankfurt to Braunschweig) - unless you are really keen on driving German highways. Keith> Otherwise, I guess it's option a), but I hope I don't have to Keith> sleep in the car :-(. Yes, we still have the option to rent a caravan or a big tent as the ultimate fallback solution. :-) /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Technical University Braunschweig Dept. Operating Systems & Computer Networks Phone: +49 531 391 3289 Bueltenweg 74/75, 38106 Braunschweig, Germany Fax: +49 531 391 5936 Return-Path: Received: by mumm.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA06538 for nmrg-outgoing; Tue, 29 Aug 2000 17:22:59 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from henkell.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (schoenw@henkell [134.169.34.191]) by mumm.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA04980; Tue, 29 Aug 2000 17:15:58 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from schoenw@localhost by henkell.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.7.6/tubsibr) id RAA27687; Tue, 29 Aug 2000 17:15:57 +0200 Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 17:15:57 +0200 Message-Id: <200008291515.RAA27687@henkell.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de> From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: Network Management Research Group CC: Keith McCloghrie , David Durham , Andy Bierman Subject: [nmrg] sming/sppi/smiv2 integration meeting details Sender: owner-nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Precedence: bulk Status: O Content-Length: 2481 Lines: 56 Folks, the organization of the meeting scheduled for next week turns out to be more complicated than expected. Here is the current situation: The German National Research Center for Information Technology (GMD) has volunteered to host the 7th NMRG meeting. This moves the meeting to Darmstadt, a city very close to the Frankfurt airport. They seem to have greate meeting facilities. When I tried to get hotel information, I learned that there is a big exhibition in Frankfurt in the first week of September. Due to this exhibition, all hotels in the greater Frankfurt area (including the Darmstadt area) seem to be booked. In fact, a guy from the tourist office told me that people are already booking rooms in cities like Mannheim or Heidelberg (which is about 1 hour away if you take the high-speed trains). So we now have three options: (a) Use the meeting facilities provided by the GMD in Darmstadt and let everyone try his luck to find a place to stay. This may result in a situation where folks have to spend traveling time each day to reach the meeting place. (b) Try to move the meeting a little bit further away from the Frankfurt area (e.g. into the Mannheim area). Not sure yet how difficult it will be to find a host and to get hotel rooms there. (c) Change our original plan to hold the meeting in the Frankfurt area and move the meeting to Braunschweig where I am located. It takes about 3 hours to get from Frankfurt to Braunschweig with the high speed trains. However, once you are in Braunschweig, we have enough hotel space (just checked) and everything is reachable within a small distance. Please let me know asap which option you prefer. Of course, option (c) is the easiest to deal with for me. If folks from the US prefer option (b), then I am willing to investigate this further tomorrow. So please drop me a note quickly. [BTW, you can get travel information from the German railways by going to and entering "Frankfurt Airport FRA" as the starting point and Braunschweig as the destination. Choose the date and time to check whether there is a train directly connecting your flight.] /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Technical University Braunschweig Dept. Operating Systems & Computer Networks Phone: +49 531 391 3289 Bueltenweg 74/75, 38106 Braunschweig, Germany Fax: +49 531 391 5936 Return-Path: Received: by mumm.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA20833 for nmrg-outgoing; Tue, 29 Aug 2000 16:09:10 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from icasun1.epfl.ch (root@icasun1.epfl.ch [128.178.151.148]) by mumm.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA20829 for ; Tue, 29 Aug 2000 16:09:06 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from ica.epfl.ch (jpmf@tcomhp33.epfl.ch [128.178.151.24]) by icasun1.epfl.ch (8.8.X/EPFL-8.1d for ICA) with ESMTP id QAA13285; Tue, 29 Aug 2000 16:09:05 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <200008291409.QAA13285@icasun1.epfl.ch> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 From: "J.P. Martin-Flatin" To: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Reply-To: "J.P. Martin-Flatin" Subject: [nmrg] Common Information Structure Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 16:09:05 +0200 Sender: owner-nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Precedence: bulk Status: O Content-Length: 533 Lines: 17 >Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 17:35:14 -0400 >To: adtf@omg.org, telecom@omg.org >From: Andrew Watson >Subject: Common Information Structure document > >Good Afternoon, > >We have received a document from Telemanagement Forum describing the Common >Information Structure methodology they have developed for use in >protocol-neutral modelling. It has been filed as document ad/00-08-13: > > http://cgi.omg.org/cgi-bin/doc?ad/00-08-13 > > Regards, > > Andrew Return-Path: Received: by mumm.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA16145 for nmrg-outgoing; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 22:18:17 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from henkell.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (schoenw@henkell [134.169.34.191]) by mumm.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA16139; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 22:18:14 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from schoenw@localhost by henkell.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.7.6/tubsibr) id WAA29252; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 22:18:14 +0200 Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 22:18:14 +0200 Message-Id: <200008222018.WAA29252@henkell.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de> From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: andreaw@cisco.com CC: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de In-reply-to: Subject: Re: [nmrg] smiv2/sppi/sming integration meeting References: Sender: owner-nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Precedence: bulk Status: O Content-Length: 865 Lines: 22 >>>>> Andrea Westerinen writes: Andrea> Juergen, This is only 2 weeks away. I already have Andrea> commitments for these dates. More notice is needed for such a Andrea> meeting. I generally agree. However, in this case, I believe we need to get discussions going quickly. There are some other time constraints which affect the availability of folks later in September and October. [I know, the date is not pretty. Even I have to enjoy a 15 hours train trip through the night to be in Frankfurt on time since I actually planned to be at some other place during that week.] /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Technical University Braunschweig Dept. Operating Systems & Computer Networks Phone: +49 531 391 3289 Bueltenweg 74/75, 38106 Braunschweig, Germany Fax: +49 531 391 5936 Return-Path: Received: by mumm.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA15748 for nmrg-outgoing; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 22:10:08 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from henkell.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (schoenw@henkell [134.169.34.191]) by mumm.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA15739; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 22:10:05 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from schoenw@localhost by henkell.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.7.6/tubsibr) id WAA28742; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 22:10:04 +0200 Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 22:10:04 +0200 Message-Id: <200008222010.WAA28742@henkell.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de> From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: dperkins@dsperkins.com CC: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de In-reply-to: <4.1.20000822125951.04541220@mail.scruznet.com> (dperkins@dsperkins.com) Subject: Re: [nmrg] smiv2/sppi/sming integration meeting References: <4.1.20000822125951.04541220@mail.scruznet.com> Sender: owner-nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Precedence: bulk Status: O Content-Length: 328 Lines: 15 >>>>> David T Perkins writes: David> Is this meeting actually going to happen on this date? Yes, I think so. David> It would be much better to move it back at least a couple of David> weeks to allow time to set up travel. There are several reasons why this is problematic. So I would like to retain the meeting date. /js Return-Path: Received: by mumm.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA15222 for nmrg-outgoing; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 22:01:29 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from baxter.tollbridgetech.com (host120-106.tollbridgetech.com [205.178.120.106] (may be forged)) by mumm.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA15218 for ; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 22:01:25 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from DPERKINS-NB1 ([10.2.254.25]) by baxter.tollbridgetech.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2650.21) id RNJAK3KC; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 13:02:01 -0700 Message-Id: <4.1.20000822125951.04541220@mail.scruznet.com> X-Sender: dperkins@mail.scruznet.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 13:01:42 -0700 To: "Network Management Research Group" From: "David T. Perkins" Subject: RE: [nmrg] smiv2/sppi/sming integration meeting Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Precedence: bulk Status: O Content-Length: 188 Lines: 9 HI, Is this meeting actually going to happen on this date? It would be much better to move it back at least a couple of weeks to allow time to set up travel. Regards, /david t. perkins Return-Path: Received: by mumm.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA15200 for nmrg-outgoing; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 22:01:14 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from baxter.tollbridgetech.com (host120-106.tollbridgetech.com [205.178.120.106] (may be forged)) by mumm.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA15195 for ; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 22:01:11 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from DPERKINS-NB1 ([10.2.254.25]) by baxter.tollbridgetech.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2650.21) id RNJAK3K1; Tue, 22 Aug 2000 13:02:02 -0700 Message-Id: <4.1.20000822130220.041e2b60@mail.scruznet.com> X-Sender: dperkins@mail.scruznet.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 13:02:23 -0700 To: "Network Management Research Group" From: "David T. Perkins" Subject: RE: [nmrg] smiv2/sppi/sming integration meeting Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Precedence: bulk Status: O Content-Length: 189 Lines: 9 HI, Is this meeting actually going to happen on this date? It would be much better to move it back at least a couple of weeks to allow time to set up travel. Regards, /david t. perkins Return-Path: Received: by mumm.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA17590 for nmrg-outgoing; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 18:59:14 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from sigma.cisco.com (sigma.cisco.com [171.69.63.142]) by mumm.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA17545; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 18:59:11 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from andreawlap (atlantis-dial-1-115.cisco.com [171.68.181.116]) by sigma.cisco.com (8.8.8-Cisco List Logging/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA28877; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 09:58:28 -0700 (PDT) From: "Andrea Westerinen" To: "Juergen Schoenwaelder" , "Network Management Research Group" Subject: RE: [nmrg] smiv2/sppi/sming integration meeting Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 10:01:55 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 In-Reply-To: <200008211006.MAA16810@henkell.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de> Sender: owner-nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Precedence: bulk Status: O Content-Length: 2659 Lines: 70 Juergen, This is only 2 weeks away. I already have commitments for these dates. More notice is needed for such a meeting. Andrea -----Original Message----- From: owner-nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de [mailto:owner-nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de]On Behalf Of Juergen Schoenwaelder Sent: Monday, August 21, 2000 3:07 AM To: Network Management Research Group Subject: [nmrg] smiv2/sppi/sming integration meeting During the IETF meeting in Pittsburgh, many people expressed that it is valuable to merge SMIv2/SMIng/SPPI into a single next generation data definition language to be used at least with SNMP and COPS, but perhaps also with DIAMETER and other protocols which separate data definitions from the protocol itself. There is also a NIM requirements document which identifies language features that are considered important by the "modeling experts". I got the impression that the time has come to seriously dive into the details and to find out whether we can come up with a language proposal which can actually reduce the number of languages in use within the IETF for defining data models. In order to move forward quickly, I am organizing a meeting next month to address this issue. Here are the logistic details as known right now: Date: September 6-8 (Wednesday-Friday) Place: Frankfurt, Germany Host: Some people who are not members of the NMRG are likely to attend this meeting in order to get additional subject matter experts involved. This meeting is intended to dive into the technical details. For this to be possible, I expect that participants are well prepared and are willing to work effectively towards the stated goal of the meeting. In particular, I expect participants to be familiar with the following documents: - SMIv2 as defined in RFC 2578-2580 - SMIng as defined in - SPPI as defined in - NIM requirements as described in Participants should also understand the SNMP and COPS-PR protocols. Knowledge in other related areas (e.g. diameter, other data definition languages, mappings between data definition languages) is of course helpful and welcome. If you plan to attend, then please drop me a note as soon as possible so that I can better plan ahead and inform the local host about the meeting facilities we actually need. /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Technical University Braunschweig Dept. Operating Systems & Computer Networks Phone: +49 531 391 3289 Bueltenweg 74/75, 38106 Braunschweig, Germany Fax: +49 531 391 5936 Return-Path: Received: by mumm.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA16809 for nmrg-outgoing; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 12:06:42 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from henkell.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (schoenw@henkell [134.169.34.191]) by mumm.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA16740; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 12:06:36 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from schoenw@localhost by henkell.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.7.6/tubsibr) id MAA16810; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 12:06:36 +0200 Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 12:06:36 +0200 Message-Id: <200008211006.MAA16810@henkell.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de> From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: Network Management Research Group Subject: [nmrg] smiv2/sppi/sming integration meeting Sender: owner-nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Precedence: bulk Status: O Content-Length: 2264 Lines: 55 During the IETF meeting in Pittsburgh, many people expressed that it is valuable to merge SMIv2/SMIng/SPPI into a single next generation data definition language to be used at least with SNMP and COPS, but perhaps also with DIAMETER and other protocols which separate data definitions from the protocol itself. There is also a NIM requirements document which identifies language features that are considered important by the "modeling experts". I got the impression that the time has come to seriously dive into the details and to find out whether we can come up with a language proposal which can actually reduce the number of languages in use within the IETF for defining data models. In order to move forward quickly, I am organizing a meeting next month to address this issue. Here are the logistic details as known right now: Date: September 6-8 (Wednesday-Friday) Place: Frankfurt, Germany Host: Some people who are not members of the NMRG are likely to attend this meeting in order to get additional subject matter experts involved. This meeting is intended to dive into the technical details. For this to be possible, I expect that participants are well prepared and are willing to work effectively towards the stated goal of the meeting. In particular, I expect participants to be familiar with the following documents: - SMIv2 as defined in RFC 2578-2580 - SMIng as defined in - SPPI as defined in - NIM requirements as described in Participants should also understand the SNMP and COPS-PR protocols. Knowledge in other related areas (e.g. diameter, other data definition languages, mappings between data definition languages) is of course helpful and welcome. If you plan to attend, then please drop me a note as soon as possible so that I can better plan ahead and inform the local host about the meeting facilities we actually need. /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Technical University Braunschweig Dept. Operating Systems & Computer Networks Phone: +49 531 391 3289 Bueltenweg 74/75, 38106 Braunschweig, Germany Fax: +49 531 391 5936 Return-Path: Received: by mumm.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA16155 for nmrg-outgoing; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 11:58:33 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from utrhcs.cs.utwente.nl (utrhcs.cs.utwente.nl [130.89.10.247]) by mumm.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA16140; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 11:58:31 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from ctit.utwente.nl (utip064.cs.utwente.nl [130.89.12.90]) by utrhcs.cs.utwente.nl (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA26280; Mon, 21 Aug 2000 11:58:29 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <39A0FD2A.CB9F865@ctit.utwente.nl> Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 11:58:02 +0200 From: Aiko Pras X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Juergen Schoenwaelder CC: andreaw@cisco.com, nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Subject: Re: [nmrg] future meetings References: <200008171452.QAA05583@henkell.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Precedence: bulk Status: O Content-Length: 612 Lines: 14 Hi all Andrea> December 8-9 works for me - except that we will have to go out Andrea> for food, etc. since there is no catering on the weekends. Juergen> Great. So we will tentatively fix this date. (Getting some food Juergen> should not be a major problem I guess.) Juergen> I would like to ask those of you who did not respond yet to Juergen> drop me a note whether they plan to attend or not. This helps Juergen> to figure out how many people will actually show up. I expect that I will be able to join that meeting. Also the other meeting (Internet Management Vision Workshop) sounds interesting. Aiko Return-Path: Received: by mumm.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA12174 for nmrg-outgoing; Sat, 19 Aug 2000 19:06:13 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from alemail1.lucent.com (alemail1.lucent.com [192.11.221.161]) by mumm.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA12170 for ; Sat, 19 Aug 2000 19:06:11 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from alemail1.lucent.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by alemail1.lucent.com (Pro-8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA06826 for ; Sat, 19 Aug 2000 13:06:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nl0006exch001h.wins.lucent.com (h135-85-76-62.lucent.com [135.85.76.62]) by alemail1.lucent.com (Pro-8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA06818 for ; Sat, 19 Aug 2000 13:06:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nl0006exch001h.nl.lucent.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Sat, 19 Aug 2000 19:06:03 +0200 Message-ID: <2413FED0DFE6D111B3F90008C7FA61FB08C0D8A8@nl0006exch002u.nl.lucent.com> From: "Wijnen, Bert (Bert)" To: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Subject: RE: [nmrg] future meetings Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2000 19:06:03 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Precedence: bulk Status: O Content-Length: 854 Lines: 34 I can do 8-9 Dec I think. I guess I would prefer the meeting to be in Austin or in San Diego, which may reduce the time spend on travel. Bert > ---------- > From: David Harrington[SMTP:dbh@cabletron.com] > Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2000 2:46 PM > To: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de > Subject: Re: [nmrg] future meetings > > > > "J.P. Martin-Flatin" wrote: > > > > On Tue, 15 Aug 2000 17:15:40 +0200, Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote: > > > > > > The weekend option December 8-9 is infact my preference. What do > > > others think? > > > > These dates are fine with me. > > > > JP > > Those dates look OK to me as well. > dbh > -- > --- > David Harrington Network Management Standards Architect > dbh@enterasys.com Office of the CTO > +1 603 337 2614 - voice Enterasys Networks > +1 603 332 1524 - fax Rochester NH, USA > Return-Path: Received: by mumm.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA09957 for nmrg-outgoing; Thu, 17 Aug 2000 16:52:36 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from henkell.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (schoenw@henkell [134.169.34.191]) by mumm.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA09948; Thu, 17 Aug 2000 16:52:31 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from schoenw@localhost by henkell.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.7.6/tubsibr) id QAA05583; Thu, 17 Aug 2000 16:52:31 +0200 Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 16:52:31 +0200 Message-Id: <200008171452.QAA05583@henkell.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de> From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: andreaw@cisco.com CC: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de In-reply-to: Subject: Re: [nmrg] future meetings References: Sender: owner-nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Precedence: bulk Status: O Content-Length: 813 Lines: 20 >>>>> Andrea Westerinen writes: Andrea> December 8-9 works for me - except that we will have to go out Andrea> for food, etc. since there is no catering on the weekends. Great. So we will tentatively fix this date. (Getting some food should not be a major problem I guess.) I would like to ask those of you who did not respond yet to drop me a note whether they plan to attend or not. This helps to figure out how many people will actually show up. I also think we should invite some additional subject matter experts. Assuming that this will be the Information Modeling Workshop, we should try to get information modelers from other organizations involved so that we can learn from what they have been doing. Let me know if you have any specific suggestions so that we can contact people early enough. /js Return-Path: Received: by mumm.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA10464 for nmrg-outgoing; Wed, 16 Aug 2000 21:29:02 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from sigma.cisco.com (sigma.cisco.com [171.69.63.142]) by mumm.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA10459; Wed, 16 Aug 2000 21:29:00 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from andreawlap (dhcp-171-71-229-184.cisco.com [171.71.229.184]) by sigma.cisco.com (8.8.8-Cisco List Logging/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA17113; Wed, 16 Aug 2000 12:28:22 -0700 (PDT) From: "Andrea Westerinen" To: "Juergen Schoenwaelder" Cc: , Subject: RE: [nmrg] future meetings Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 12:32:11 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <200008151515.RAA08840@henkell.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de> Importance: Normal X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Sender: owner-nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Precedence: bulk Status: O Content-Length: 536 Lines: 19 Andrea> I would be happy to host at Cisco in San Jose either before or Andrea> after the IETF in San Diego. This sounds great. So this is probably going to be the information modeling workshop, right? ;-) It is whatever the NMRG wants :-). The weekend option December 8-9 is infact my preference. What do others think? Are there options I have missed? December 8-9 works for me - except that we will have to go out for food, etc. since there is no catering on the weekends. Andrea Return-Path: Received: by mumm.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA12311 for nmrg-outgoing; Wed, 16 Aug 2000 14:46:52 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from ctron-dnm.ctron.com (firewall-user@ctron-dnm.cabletron.com [12.25.1.120]) by mumm.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA12307 for ; Wed, 16 Aug 2000 14:46:49 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by ctron-dnm.ctron.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA24977 for ; Wed, 16 Aug 2000 08:51:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from olympus.ctron.com(134.141.72.253) by ctron-dnm.ctron.com via smap (4.1) id xma024811; Wed, 16 Aug 00 08:51:15 -0400 Received: from ctron.com ([134.141.153.93]) by olympus.ctron.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA01272; Wed, 16 Aug 2000 08:46:29 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <399A8D1B.CF20950C@ctron.com> Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 08:46:19 -0400 From: David Harrington Organization: Enterasys Networks X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Subject: Re: [nmrg] future meetings References: <200008161127.NAA25069@icasun1.epfl.ch> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Precedence: bulk Status: O Content-Length: 488 Lines: 21 "J.P. Martin-Flatin" wrote: > > On Tue, 15 Aug 2000 17:15:40 +0200, Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote: > > > > The weekend option December 8-9 is infact my preference. What do > > others think? > > These dates are fine with me. > > JP Those dates look OK to me as well. dbh -- --- David Harrington Network Management Standards Architect dbh@enterasys.com Office of the CTO +1 603 337 2614 - voice Enterasys Networks +1 603 332 1524 - fax Rochester NH, USA Return-Path: Received: by mumm.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA06076 for nmrg-outgoing; Wed, 16 Aug 2000 13:27:46 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from icasun1.epfl.ch (root@icasun1.epfl.ch [128.178.151.148]) by mumm.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA06072 for ; Wed, 16 Aug 2000 13:27:40 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from ica.epfl.ch (jpmf@tcomhp33.epfl.ch [128.178.151.24]) by icasun1.epfl.ch (8.8.X/EPFL-8.1d for ICA) with ESMTP id NAA25069; Wed, 16 Aug 2000 13:27:31 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <200008161127.NAA25069@icasun1.epfl.ch> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 From: "J.P. Martin-Flatin" To: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Reply-To: "J.P. Martin-Flatin" Subject: Re: [nmrg] future meetings In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 15 Aug 2000 17:15:40 METDST." <200008151515.RAA08840@henkell.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 13:27:30 +0200 Sender: owner-nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Precedence: bulk Status: O Content-Length: 187 Lines: 9 On Tue, 15 Aug 2000 17:15:40 +0200, Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote: > > The weekend option December 8-9 is infact my preference. What do > others think? These dates are fine with me. JP Return-Path: Received: by mumm.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA08815 for nmrg-outgoing; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 17:15:47 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from henkell.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (schoenw@henkell [134.169.34.191]) by mumm.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA08809; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 17:15:40 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from schoenw@localhost by henkell.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.7.6/tubsibr) id RAA08840; Tue, 15 Aug 2000 17:15:40 +0200 Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 17:15:40 +0200 Message-Id: <200008151515.RAA08840@henkell.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de> From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: andreaw@cisco.com CC: bwijnen@lucent.com, nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de In-reply-to: Subject: Re: [nmrg] future meetings References: Sender: owner-nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Precedence: bulk Status: O Content-Length: 1335 Lines: 41 >>>>> Andrea Westerinen writes: Andrea> I would be happy to host at Cisco in San Jose either before or Andrea> after the IETF in San Diego. This sounds great. So this is probably going to be the information modeling workshop, right? ;-) Can we try to settle on a date? Here is what I know is going on in December: 4-6 DSOM 2000 (Austin, Texas) 6-7 IM 2001 PC meeting (Austin, Texas) 10-15 49. IETF (San Diego, California) And here is how December looks like (just in case you don't have your calendar handy): Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 Doing the meeting after the IETF is probably difficult since this is getting really close to Xmas. On the other hand, holding the meeting before DSOM increases travelling (since participants on all meetings now make the trip -> CA -> TX -> CA ->. Another option would be to use the weekend and to hold the meeting on December 8-9 - although this may be a problem for people who prefer to be at home during the weekend (which is not an issue for Europeans - I think ;-). The weekend option December 8-9 is infact my preference. What do others think? Are there options I have missed? Please let us know quickly so we can settle on a meeting data. /js Return-Path: Received: by mumm.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA25421 for nmrg-outgoing; Sat, 12 Aug 2000 06:09:41 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from sigma.cisco.com (sigma.cisco.com [171.69.63.142]) by mumm.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA25416; Sat, 12 Aug 2000 06:09:36 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from andreawlap (sj-dial-4-7.cisco.com [171.68.181.136]) by sigma.cisco.com (8.8.8-Cisco List Logging/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA19393; Fri, 11 Aug 2000 21:08:58 -0700 (PDT) From: "Andrea Westerinen" To: "Juergen Schoenwaelder" , Cc: Subject: RE: [nmrg] future meetings Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 21:12:43 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <200008090903.LAA04983@henkell.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Sender: owner-nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Precedence: bulk Status: O Content-Length: 1879 Lines: 51 I would be happy to host at Cisco in San Jose either before or after the IETF in San Diego. Andrea -----Original Message----- From: owner-nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de [mailto:owner-nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de]On Behalf Of Juergen Schoenwaelder Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2000 2:03 AM To: bwijnen@lucent.com Cc: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Subject: Re: [nmrg] future meetings >>>>> Wijnen, Bert (Bert) writes: Bert> I think it is important to plan them a little bit further out, Bert> so that people have ample time to plan for attending. Yes. As I said, I am open for any suggestions when and where to hold future meeting. Also volunteers who want to organize a meeting at their premises are more than welcome to speak up. One opportunity may be to have a meeting around December somewhere in the US since there is DSOM 2000 (December 4-6) in Austin TX and the 49th IETF (December 11-15) in San Diego CA. I expect that many folks are going to one or even both of these meetings anyway. I could certainly volunteer to host another meeting at say the end of October here in Braunschweig, Germany. But I have some doubts that folks from the US like the idea to travel to a place in Europe without a big airport close by - so I am more than happy if there are any other suggestions. Bert> I would also like to see representation of some real operators Bert> (i.e. users of all our technologies). This is going to be tough. I may be able to contact some folks who are running mobile phone networks in Germany. Likewise, I think we can ask people who are running the European research network infrastructure. /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Technical University Braunschweig Dept. Operating Systems & Computer Networks Phone: +49 531 391 3289 Bueltenweg 74/75, 38106 Braunschweig, Germany Fax: +49 531 391 5936 Return-Path: Received: by mumm.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA29697 for nmrg-outgoing; Thu, 10 Aug 2000 13:11:46 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from henkell.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (schoenw@henkell [134.169.34.191]) by mumm.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA29688; Thu, 10 Aug 2000 13:11:43 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from schoenw@localhost by henkell.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.7.6/tubsibr) id NAA13217; Thu, 10 Aug 2000 13:11:43 +0200 Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 13:11:43 +0200 Message-Id: <200008101111.NAA13217@henkell.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de> From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: jp.martin-flatin@ieee.org CC: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de In-reply-to: <200008092230.AAA24054@icasun1.epfl.ch> (jp.martin-flatin@ieee.org) Subject: Re: [nmrg] future meetings References: <200008092230.AAA24054@icasun1.epfl.ch> Sender: owner-nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Precedence: bulk Status: O Content-Length: 666 Lines: 25 >>>>> J P Martin-Flatin writes: >> (1) Information Modeling Workshop JP> We've talked about it already. I long for such a meeting. [...] So you are interested. I am not commenting on the arguments you have raised since I would prefer to have this discussion in that meeting. JP> Joint with an IM, NOMS, or DSOM meeting. The typical "research side" answer I expected. ;-) /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Technical University Braunschweig Dept. Operating Systems & Computer Networks Phone: +49 531 391 3289 Bueltenweg 74/75, 38106 Braunschweig, Germany Fax: +49 531 391 5936 Return-Path: Received: by mumm.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA00637 for nmrg-outgoing; Thu, 10 Aug 2000 00:30:10 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from icasun1.epfl.ch (root@icasun1.epfl.ch [128.178.151.148]) by mumm.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA00632 for ; Thu, 10 Aug 2000 00:30:09 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from ica.epfl.ch (jpmf@tcomhp33.epfl.ch [128.178.151.24]) by icasun1.epfl.ch (8.8.X/EPFL-8.1d for ICA) with ESMTP id AAA24054; Thu, 10 Aug 2000 00:30:07 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <200008092230.AAA24054@icasun1.epfl.ch> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 From: "J.P. Martin-Flatin" To: Network Management Research Group Reply-To: "J.P. Martin-Flatin" Subject: Re: [nmrg] future meetings In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 07 Aug 2000 15:07:30 METDST." <200008071307.PAA27616@henkell.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 00:30:07 +0200 Sender: owner-nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Precedence: bulk Status: O Content-Length: 4764 Lines: 109 On Mon, 7 Aug 2000 15:07:30 +0200, Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote: > > (1) Information Modeling Workshop Juergen, We've talked about it already. I long for such a meeting. I think we need to build a bridge between the IETF and DMTF worlds, for information modelers to meet, talk, and exchange experience in all management areas. AFAIK, they've only done that for policies in the past. In many respects, the DMTF is currently reinventing the wheel and the IETF know-how is not shared. This is too bad. The NMRG might be the right middleman to open this dialog. > The purpose of this workshop would be to dive into the details > of network information modeling. Such a workshop may do several > things: > > - Produce a good overview of what has been done so far in various > groups. Yes > - Discuss the pros and cons of doing information modeling work. I'm not sure there's anything new to be said here. SNMP MIBs are all instrumentation MIBs, with the usual problems associated with low-level semantics. The DMTF is working on high- and low-level MIBs, but they've so far ignored large areas in integrated management. If you're not yet convinced, browse through the MOF files of CIM Schema 2.3 and look for the info. we routinely find in SNMP MIBs, today, in deployed equipment: http://www.dmtf.org/spec/cim_schema_v23.html > - Identify how information modeling work interacts with real > world products and markets. Apart from Luca and I, I don't think many of us have managed real-life networks. And if you talk to production guys who have no research background and don't have the time to put things into perspective, they'll simply tell you: I want HPOV to twist this and change that. I'm afraid we might find it difficult to progress on this item. > - Discuss key elements for a proposal of a CIM like/light model > for the Internet. In my view, SNMP information modeling has no long-term future because it isn't object oriented. But CIM is getting complex, many class names are bizarre and counterintuitive (e.g., the concepts of events, alerts, and indications are bogus), and the OSI management syndrome is looming. I suggest we critically assess CIM, compare it with the good sides of the SNMP information model, and see where we should go from there. > For this to be effective, we probably need to invite additional > experts (e.g. TINA or ODP folks) or we need volunteers who are > willing to work out good summaries of these related projects. My previous discussions with TINA and ODP people have not been fruitful. I'd rather we invite OMG experts. They've done a lot of good work in information modeling, but this work has been ignored by the IETF and DMTF so far. I'm thinking of the 4-tier modeling architecture proposed for CORBA, with M0, M1, M2, and M3. See for instance: C. Atkinson. "Meta-Modeling for Distributed Object Environments". In Proc. 1st International Enterprise Distributed Object Computing Conference (EDOC '97), Gold Coast, Australia, October, 1997. IEEE Computer Society Press, Los Alamitos, CA, USA, 1997. The only active person that I know in this area is Jean Bezivin, but he's way too busy with standardization work. Is any of you well connected with the OMG? > (2) Internet Management Vision Workshop > > The purpose of this workshop would be to develop a vision for > Internet management in say 5-10 years. We all have experience with > the data definitions oriented approach. Other approaches such as > programmable networks have been proposed in the last few years. > This workshop should try to bring people familiar with various > approaches together to discuss at a very high level what the > particular strengths and weaknesses are. The outcome produced by > such a workshop could be a position paper which classifies > approaches and technologies, analyzes them and derives some > conclusions regarding the future managment of the Internet. Wait a few weeks and you'll get a long answer in Chapters 3 and 4 of my Ph.D. dissertation. > For this to be effective, I propose to invite additional experts > that are well familiar with some of the new technologies and who > are able to come up with good judgements about the feasibility of > the various approaches. This looks like a good panel proposal for DSOM 2000 or IM 2001. Why don't you organize this? > In order to get things moving, I would like to get feedback on these > topics. Please indicate whether you are interested enough to actually > attend such a meeting. Yes > I also appreciate any recommendations on where > and when to hold such a workshop. Joint with an IM, NOMS, or DSOM meeting. Jean-Philippe Return-Path: Received: by mumm.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA19356 for nmrg-outgoing; Wed, 9 Aug 2000 11:03:29 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from henkell.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (schoenw@henkell [134.169.34.191]) by mumm.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA19344; Wed, 9 Aug 2000 11:03:23 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from schoenw@localhost by henkell.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.7.6/tubsibr) id LAA04983; Wed, 9 Aug 2000 11:03:23 +0200 Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 11:03:23 +0200 Message-Id: <200008090903.LAA04983@henkell.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de> From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: bwijnen@lucent.com CC: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de In-reply-to: <2413FED0DFE6D111B3F90008C7FA61FB089329A8@nl0006exch002u.nl.lucent.com> (bwijnen@lucent.com) Subject: Re: [nmrg] future meetings References: <2413FED0DFE6D111B3F90008C7FA61FB089329A8@nl0006exch002u.nl.lucent.com> Sender: owner-nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Precedence: bulk Status: O Content-Length: 1520 Lines: 35 >>>>> Wijnen, Bert (Bert) writes: Bert> I think it is important to plan them a little bit further out, Bert> so that people have ample time to plan for attending. Yes. As I said, I am open for any suggestions when and where to hold future meeting. Also volunteers who want to organize a meeting at their premises are more than welcome to speak up. One opportunity may be to have a meeting around December somewhere in the US since there is DSOM 2000 (December 4-6) in Austin TX and the 49th IETF (December 11-15) in San Diego CA. I expect that many folks are going to one or even both of these meetings anyway. I could certainly volunteer to host another meeting at say the end of October here in Braunschweig, Germany. But I have some doubts that folks from the US like the idea to travel to a place in Europe without a big airport close by - so I am more than happy if there are any other suggestions. Bert> I would also like to see representation of some real operators Bert> (i.e. users of all our technologies). This is going to be tough. I may be able to contact some folks who are running mobile phone networks in Germany. Likewise, I think we can ask people who are running the European research network infrastructure. /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Technical University Braunschweig Dept. Operating Systems & Computer Networks Phone: +49 531 391 3289 Bueltenweg 74/75, 38106 Braunschweig, Germany Fax: +49 531 391 5936 Return-Path: Received: by mumm.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA14889 for nmrg-outgoing; Wed, 9 Aug 2000 10:24:23 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from henkell.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (schoenw@henkell [134.169.34.191]) by mumm.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA14861; Wed, 9 Aug 2000 10:24:13 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from schoenw@localhost by henkell.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.7.6/tubsibr) id KAA00440; Wed, 9 Aug 2000 10:24:13 +0200 Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 10:24:13 +0200 Message-Id: <200008090824.KAA00440@henkell.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de> From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: Harald@Alvestrand.no CC: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de In-reply-to: <4.3.2.7.2.20000808135930.0238aaf0@127.0.0.1> (message from Harald Alvestrand on Tue, 08 Aug 2000 14:00:51 +0200) Subject: Re: [nmrg] future meetings References: <4.3.2.7.2.20000808135930.0238aaf0@127.0.0.1> Sender: owner-nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Precedence: bulk Status: O Content-Length: 1567 Lines: 37 >>>>> Harald Alvestrand writes: >> (1) Information Modeling Workshop >> Harald> This sounds bizarrely like the NIM group (info model for the Harald> Internet). I got the impression from the BOF that work on a common information model (in the ISO/OSI or CIM sense of this term) did not get much support from the people present in that room. On the other hand, people in other organizations spend large amounts of their time developing these models. So the question remains whether the IETF is right in ignoring these activities or whether the other folks are right in doing this work. One way to get closer to an answer is to get people from the various groups to sit together and talk with each other. Sure, this will not be easy as we probably need to spend at least half a day to work out the differences in terminologies in those groups in order to understand each other. But it may be worthwhile to try this exercise (even if the output is not a definite answer whether information models are good or bad and just a better understanding what all these groups are doing and why). Now, if the IESG decides to create a NIM working group chartered to develop a common information model for the Internet, then the right place for such a discussion is indeed such a NIM WG... /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Technical University Braunschweig Dept. Operating Systems & Computer Networks Phone: +49 531 391 3289 Bueltenweg 74/75, 38106 Braunschweig, Germany Fax: +49 531 391 5936 Return-Path: Received: by mumm.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA19752 for nmrg-outgoing; Wed, 9 Aug 2000 02:07:13 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from ihemail2.firewall.lucent.com (ihemail2.lucent.com [192.11.222.163]) by mumm.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA19744; Wed, 9 Aug 2000 02:07:11 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from ihemail2.firewall.lucent.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ihemail2.firewall.lucent.com (Pro-8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA13069; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 20:07:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nl0006exch001h.wins.lucent.com (h135-85-76-62.lucent.com [135.85.76.62]) by ihemail2.firewall.lucent.com (Pro-8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA13031; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 20:07:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nl0006exch001h.nl.lucent.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Wed, 9 Aug 2000 02:07:00 +0200 Message-ID: <2413FED0DFE6D111B3F90008C7FA61FB089A1DF5@nl0006exch002u.nl.lucent.com> From: "Wijnen, Bert (Bert)" To: Juergen Schoenwaelder , Network Management Research Group , Harald Alvestrand Subject: RE: [nmrg] future meetings Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2000 02:06:59 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Precedence: bulk Status: O Content-Length: 1681 Lines: 43 Comments inline > ---------- > From: Harald Alvestrand[SMTP:Harald@Alvestrand.no] > Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2000 2:00 PM > To: Juergen Schoenwaelder; Network Management Research Group > Subject: Re: [nmrg] future meetings > > At 15:07 07/08/2000 +0200, Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote: > > >I think it is time to start discussion on future NMRG meetings. I will > >propose two meeting topics below based on what I have heard people > >were looking for or talking about. Of course, I also invite people to > >bring up any other topics they think should be discussed in this > >group. > > > >(1) Information Modeling Workshop > > > > The purpose of this workshop would be to dive into the details > > of network information modeling. Such a workshop may do several > > things: > > > > - Produce a good overview of what has been done so far in various > > groups. > > - Discuss the pros and cons of doing information modeling work. > > - Identify how information modeling work interacts with real > > world products and markets. > > - Discuss key elements for a proposal of a CIM like/light model > > for the Internet. > > - ... > > > > For this to be effective, we probably need to invite additional > > experts (e.g. TINA or ODP folks) or we need volunteers who are > > willing to work out good summaries of these related projects. > > This sounds bizarrely like the NIM group (info model for the Internet). > Yes, and I would assume that the key players would be invited to the meeting. I think I sort of consider it as a design team meeting where key players continue the discussion on NIIIM-type topics Bert Return-Path: Received: by mumm.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA21432 for nmrg-outgoing; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 19:25:00 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from wanderer.hardaker.davis.ca.us (IDENT:root@dcas107.ucdavis.edu [169.237.210.107]) by mumm.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA21424; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 19:24:58 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from hardaker@localhost) by wanderer.hardaker.davis.ca.us (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA01653; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 10:24:41 -0700 To: Juergen Schoenwaelder Cc: Network Management Research Group Subject: Re: [nmrg] future meetings References: <200008071307.PAA27616@henkell.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de> From: Wes Hardaker X-URL: http://dcas.ucdavis.edu/~hardaker X-Microsoft: Sucks Organization: U.C.Davis, Information Technology - D.C.A.S. X-Face: #qW^}a%m*T^{A:Cp}$R\"38+d}41-Z}uU8,r%F#c#s:~Nzp0G9](s?,K49KJ]s"*7gvRgA SrAvQc4@/}L7Qc=w{)]ACO\R{LF@S{pXfojjjGg6c;q6{~C}CxC^^&~(F]`1W)%9j/iS/ IM",B1M.?{w8ckLTYD'`|kTr\i\cgY)P4 Date: 08 Aug 2000 10:24:39 -0700 In-Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder's message of "Mon, 7 Aug 2000 15:07:30 +0200" Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.0805 (Gnus v5.8.5) XEmacs/21.2 (Shinjuku) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Precedence: bulk Status: O Content-Length: 574 Lines: 13 >>>>> On Mon, 7 Aug 2000 15:07:30 +0200, Juergen Schoenwaelder said: Juergen> (1) Information Modeling Workshop Juergen> (2) Internet Management Vision Workshop Both of these sound interesting and useful. Certainly, publicly available minutes of the meeting, if nothing else, would be great for the management world at large. I've spoken with a large number of people that routinely ask me questions about these 2 topics, so I know there is interest out there. -- "Ninjas aren't dangerous. They're more afraid of you than you are of them." Return-Path: Received: by mumm.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA16394 for nmrg-outgoing; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 18:00:03 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from sigma.cisco.com (sigma.cisco.com [171.69.63.142]) by mumm.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA16332; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 17:59:59 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from andreawlap (dhcp-171-71-229-184.cisco.com [171.71.229.184]) by sigma.cisco.com (8.8.8-Cisco List Logging/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA15207; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 08:58:46 -0700 (PDT) From: "Andrea Westerinen" To: "Harald Alvestrand" , "Juergen Schoenwaelder" , "Network Management Research Group" Subject: RE: [nmrg] future meetings Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2000 09:02:31 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20000808135930.0238aaf0@127.0.0.1> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6700 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Precedence: bulk Status: O Content-Length: 2770 Lines: 72 On #1, it does indeed sound like NIM, but the BOF was not scoped nor was there much data on info models, their pros and cons, the existing languages, their pros and cons, etc. I think that if NMRG worked on this for awhile, it could help the IETF and industry as a whole. Even if the only outcome was to scope the problem. I would definitely support this. Andrea -----Original Message----- From: owner-nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de [mailto:owner-nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de]On Behalf Of Harald Alvestrand Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2000 5:01 AM To: Juergen Schoenwaelder; Network Management Research Group Subject: Re: [nmrg] future meetings At 15:07 07/08/2000 +0200, Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote: >I think it is time to start discussion on future NMRG meetings. I will >propose two meeting topics below based on what I have heard people >were looking for or talking about. Of course, I also invite people to >bring up any other topics they think should be discussed in this >group. > >(1) Information Modeling Workshop > > The purpose of this workshop would be to dive into the details > of network information modeling. Such a workshop may do several > things: > > - Produce a good overview of what has been done so far in various > groups. > - Discuss the pros and cons of doing information modeling work. > - Identify how information modeling work interacts with real > world products and markets. > - Discuss key elements for a proposal of a CIM like/light model > for the Internet. > - ... > > For this to be effective, we probably need to invite additional > experts (e.g. TINA or ODP folks) or we need volunteers who are > willing to work out good summaries of these related projects. This sounds bizarrely like the NIM group (info model for the Internet). >(2) Internet Management Vision Workshop > > The purpose of this workshop would be to develop a vision for > Internet management in say 5-10 years. We all have experience with > the data definitions oriented approach. Other approaches such as > programmable networks have been proposed in the last few years. > This workshop should try to bring people familiar with various > approaches together to discuss at a very high level what the > particular strengths and weaknesses are. The outcome produced by > such a workshop could be a position paper which classifies > approaches and technologies, analyzes them and derives some > conclusions regarding the future managment of the Internet. This one, on the other hand, is distinctly different and definitely worth pursuing, IMHO. Harald -- Harald Tveit Alvestrand, alvestrand@cisco.com +47 41 44 29 94 Personal email: Harald@Alvestrand.no Return-Path: Received: by mumm.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA01952 for nmrg-outgoing; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 14:11:22 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from dokka.maxware.no (dokka.maxware.no [195.139.236.69]) by mumm.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA01927; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 14:11:13 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from halvestr-8kcdt.maxware.no (ams-vpdn-client-450.cisco.com [144.254.47.198]) by dokka.maxware.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA12793; Tue, 8 Aug 2000 14:11:03 +0200 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000808135930.0238aaf0@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: hta@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2000 14:00:51 +0200 To: Juergen Schoenwaelder , Network Management Research Group From: Harald Alvestrand Subject: Re: [nmrg] future meetings In-Reply-To: <200008071307.PAA27616@henkell.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Precedence: bulk Status: O Content-Length: 2139 Lines: 53 At 15:07 07/08/2000 +0200, Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote: >I think it is time to start discussion on future NMRG meetings. I will >propose two meeting topics below based on what I have heard people >were looking for or talking about. Of course, I also invite people to >bring up any other topics they think should be discussed in this >group. > >(1) Information Modeling Workshop > > The purpose of this workshop would be to dive into the details > of network information modeling. Such a workshop may do several > things: > > - Produce a good overview of what has been done so far in various > groups. > - Discuss the pros and cons of doing information modeling work. > - Identify how information modeling work interacts with real > world products and markets. > - Discuss key elements for a proposal of a CIM like/light model > for the Internet. > - ... > > For this to be effective, we probably need to invite additional > experts (e.g. TINA or ODP folks) or we need volunteers who are > willing to work out good summaries of these related projects. This sounds bizarrely like the NIM group (info model for the Internet). >(2) Internet Management Vision Workshop > > The purpose of this workshop would be to develop a vision for > Internet management in say 5-10 years. We all have experience with > the data definitions oriented approach. Other approaches such as > programmable networks have been proposed in the last few years. > This workshop should try to bring people familiar with various > approaches together to discuss at a very high level what the > particular strengths and weaknesses are. The outcome produced by > such a workshop could be a position paper which classifies > approaches and technologies, analyzes them and derives some > conclusions regarding the future managment of the Internet. This one, on the other hand, is distinctly different and definitely worth pursuing, IMHO. Harald -- Harald Tveit Alvestrand, alvestrand@cisco.com +47 41 44 29 94 Personal email: Harald@Alvestrand.no Return-Path: Received: by mumm.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA07406 for nmrg-outgoing; Mon, 7 Aug 2000 21:37:14 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from ihemail2.firewall.lucent.com (ihemail2.lucent.com [192.11.222.163]) by mumm.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA07401 for ; Mon, 7 Aug 2000 21:37:12 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from ihemail2.firewall.lucent.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ihemail2.firewall.lucent.com (Pro-8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA28432 for ; Mon, 7 Aug 2000 15:37:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nl0006exch001h.wins.lucent.com (h135-85-76-62.lucent.com [135.85.76.62]) by ihemail2.firewall.lucent.com (Pro-8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA28395 for ; Mon, 7 Aug 2000 15:37:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nl0006exch001h.nl.lucent.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Mon, 7 Aug 2000 21:37:04 +0200 Message-ID: <2413FED0DFE6D111B3F90008C7FA61FB089329A8@nl0006exch002u.nl.lucent.com> From: "Wijnen, Bert (Bert)" To: Network Management Research Group Subject: RE: [nmrg] future meetings Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 21:37:01 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Precedence: bulk Status: O Content-Length: 3286 Lines: 78 As you would expect (I guess) I am interested to participate and also in the outcome of these meetings. If I can help organise, I will certainly do so. I think it is important to plan them a little bit further out, so that people have ample time to plan for attending. I would also like to see representation of some real operators (i.e. users of all our technologies). Bert > ---------- > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder[SMTP:schoenw@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de] > Sent: Monday, August 07, 2000 3:07 PM > To: Network Management Research Group > Subject: [nmrg] future meetings > > > I think it is time to start discussion on future NMRG meetings. I will > propose two meeting topics below based on what I have heard people > were looking for or talking about. Of course, I also invite people to > bring up any other topics they think should be discussed in this > group. > > (1) Information Modeling Workshop > > The purpose of this workshop would be to dive into the details > of network information modeling. Such a workshop may do several > things: > > - Produce a good overview of what has been done so far in various > groups. > - Discuss the pros and cons of doing information modeling work. > - Identify how information modeling work interacts with real > world products and markets. > - Discuss key elements for a proposal of a CIM like/light model > for the Internet. > - ... > > For this to be effective, we probably need to invite additional > experts (e.g. TINA or ODP folks) or we need volunteers who are > willing to work out good summaries of these related projects. > > (2) Internet Management Vision Workshop > > The purpose of this workshop would be to develop a vision for > Internet management in say 5-10 years. We all have experience with > the data definitions oriented approach. Other approaches such as > programmable networks have been proposed in the last few years. > This workshop should try to bring people familiar with various > approaches together to discuss at a very high level what the > particular strengths and weaknesses are. The outcome produced by > such a workshop could be a position paper which classifies > approaches and technologies, analyzes them and derives some > conclusions regarding the future managment of the Internet. > > For this to be effective, I propose to invite additional experts > that are well familiar with some of the new technologies and who > are able to come up with good judgements about the feasibility of > the various approaches. > > In order to get things moving, I would like to get feedback on these > topics. Please indicate whether you are interested enough to actually > attend such a meeting. I also appreciate any recommendations on where > and when to hold such a workshop. If someone wants to step in and help > me to organize one of these workshops, please let me know. > > /js > > -- > Juergen Schoenwaelder Technical University Braunschweig > Dept. Operating Systems & Computer Networks > Phone: +49 531 391 3289 Bueltenweg 74/75, 38106 Braunschweig, Germany > Fax: +49 531 391 5936 > > Return-Path: Received: by mumm.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA13496 for nmrg-outgoing; Mon, 7 Aug 2000 15:07:33 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from henkell.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (schoenw@henkell [134.169.34.191]) by mumm.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA13477; Mon, 7 Aug 2000 15:07:30 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from schoenw@localhost by henkell.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.7.6/tubsibr) id PAA27616; Mon, 7 Aug 2000 15:07:30 +0200 Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 15:07:30 +0200 Message-Id: <200008071307.PAA27616@henkell.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de> From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: Network Management Research Group Subject: [nmrg] future meetings Sender: owner-nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Precedence: bulk Status: O Content-Length: 2592 Lines: 59 I think it is time to start discussion on future NMRG meetings. I will propose two meeting topics below based on what I have heard people were looking for or talking about. Of course, I also invite people to bring up any other topics they think should be discussed in this group. (1) Information Modeling Workshop The purpose of this workshop would be to dive into the details of network information modeling. Such a workshop may do several things: - Produce a good overview of what has been done so far in various groups. - Discuss the pros and cons of doing information modeling work. - Identify how information modeling work interacts with real world products and markets. - Discuss key elements for a proposal of a CIM like/light model for the Internet. - ... For this to be effective, we probably need to invite additional experts (e.g. TINA or ODP folks) or we need volunteers who are willing to work out good summaries of these related projects. (2) Internet Management Vision Workshop The purpose of this workshop would be to develop a vision for Internet management in say 5-10 years. We all have experience with the data definitions oriented approach. Other approaches such as programmable networks have been proposed in the last few years. This workshop should try to bring people familiar with various approaches together to discuss at a very high level what the particular strengths and weaknesses are. The outcome produced by such a workshop could be a position paper which classifies approaches and technologies, analyzes them and derives some conclusions regarding the future managment of the Internet. For this to be effective, I propose to invite additional experts that are well familiar with some of the new technologies and who are able to come up with good judgements about the feasibility of the various approaches. In order to get things moving, I would like to get feedback on these topics. Please indicate whether you are interested enough to actually attend such a meeting. I also appreciate any recommendations on where and when to hold such a workshop. If someone wants to step in and help me to organize one of these workshops, please let me know. /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Technical University Braunschweig Dept. Operating Systems & Computer Networks Phone: +49 531 391 3289 Bueltenweg 74/75, 38106 Braunschweig, Germany Fax: +49 531 391 5936 Return-Path: Received: by mumm.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA03158 for nmrg-outgoing; Mon, 7 Aug 2000 12:23:44 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from henkell.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (schoenw@henkell [134.169.34.191]) by mumm.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA03150; Mon, 7 Aug 2000 12:23:43 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from schoenw@localhost by henkell.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.7.6/tubsibr) id MAA24326; Mon, 7 Aug 2000 12:23:42 +0200 Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 12:23:42 +0200 Message-Id: <200008071023.MAA24326@henkell.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de> From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: Network Management Research Group Subject: [nmrg] nmrg web page updated Sender: owner-nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Precedence: bulk Status: O Content-Length: 244 Lines: 9 I have made all the NMRG related material I used in various presentations last week available from the NMRG web page. Dave Thaler, if you want me to put your bulk data transfer slides from the SNMPv3 there as well, just drop me a note. /js Return-Path: Received: by mumm.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA01245 for nmrg-outgoing; Mon, 7 Aug 2000 11:49:56 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from henkell.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (schoenw@henkell [134.169.34.191]) by mumm.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA01237; Mon, 7 Aug 2000 11:49:54 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from schoenw@localhost by henkell.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.7.6/tubsibr) id LAA23428; Mon, 7 Aug 2000 11:49:53 +0200 Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 11:49:53 +0200 Message-Id: <200008070949.LAA23428@henkell.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de> From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: minutes@ietf.org CC: Network Management Research Group Subject: [nmrg] open plenary presentation slides Sender: owner-nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Precedence: bulk Status: O Content-Length: 568 Lines: 19 You can pick up the slides from by presentation in the open plenary of the 48th IETF in Pittsburgh from the following location: http://www.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de/projects/nmrg/slides/nmrg.ppt There is also a PostScript version: http://www.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de/projects/nmrg/slides/nmrg.ps /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Technical University Braunschweig Dept. Operating Systems & Computer Networks Phone: +49 531 391 3289 Bueltenweg 74/75, 38106 Braunschweig, Germany Fax: +49 531 391 5936 Return-Path: Received: by mumm.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA26168 for nmrg-outgoing; Mon, 7 Aug 2000 10:30:53 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from henkell.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (schoenw@henkell [134.169.34.191]) by mumm.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA26158; Mon, 7 Aug 2000 10:30:52 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from schoenw@localhost by henkell.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.7.6/tubsibr) id KAA21502; Mon, 7 Aug 2000 10:30:52 +0200 Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 10:30:52 +0200 Message-Id: <200008070830.KAA21502@henkell.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de> From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: Network Management Research Group Subject: [nmrg] welcome dave perkins Sender: owner-nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Precedence: bulk Status: O Content-Length: 53 Lines: 4 Dave Perkins has just joined our mailing list. /js Return-Path: Received: by mumm.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA12036 for nmrg-outgoing; Fri, 4 Aug 2000 11:32:57 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from utrhcs.cs.utwente.nl (utrhcs.cs.utwente.nl [130.89.10.247]) by mumm.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA12028; Fri, 4 Aug 2000 11:32:51 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from cs.utwente.nl (utip074.cs.utwente.nl [130.89.12.43]) by utrhcs.cs.utwente.nl (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA29687; Fri, 4 Aug 2000 11:32:48 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <398A8DA4.EB2281FA@cs.utwente.nl> Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 11:32:20 +0200 From: Ron Sprenkels Organization: University of Twente X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Juergen Schoenwaelder CC: Network Management Research Group Subject: Re: [nmrg] plenary feedback References: <200008030339.FAA01035@henkell.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Precedence: bulk Status: O Content-Length: 1586 Lines: 33 Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote: > > The issue (which usually comes up in this context, as Erik Huizer pointed > out) is the openess of this effort. > > Some folks seem to believe that the fact that you can not directly > subscribe to the list is equal with some secret stuff going on behind > the scenes. Well, proving that this list is not secret can be proven by pointing those folks to the public archives of the list at http://www.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de/projects/nmrg/marchive-2000/, right? > So we will probably have to have another round on the topic whether we > (a) keep things as they are now or (b) open this list up and rely on > the chair to find ways to stop any discussions that distract this > group from moving forward. In my opinion, the most powerful 'tool' the chair currently has to steer and guide the way things are running in this group is the ability to control who is in it. I think this is an important thing to have and to keep. Completely opening up the group results in the chair losing control over 1) who is/isn't in the group 2) the size of the group. So, if (a) and (b) are the options, I'm in favour of (a). The target size and the acceptance policy for the group are related issues; getting a bit bigger in a controlled way might be a good idea. Ron. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ron Sprenkels sprenkel@cs.utwente.nl http://www.cs.utwente.nl/~sprenkel University of Twente, Department of Computer Science, TSS Management group P.O. Box 217, 7500 AE Enschede, The Netherlands. (Tel. +31 53 489 4663) Return-Path: Received: by mumm.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA24336 for nmrg-outgoing; Thu, 3 Aug 2000 19:51:34 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from roam.psg.com (wireless-132-222.ietf.marconi.com [147.73.132.222]) by mumm.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA24331 for ; Thu, 3 Aug 2000 19:51:32 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from randy by roam.psg.com with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 13KP9L-0003QX-00; Thu, 03 Aug 2000 13:51:19 -0400 From: Randy Bush MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: "J.P. Martin-Flatin" Cc: Network Management Research Group Subject: Re: [nmrg] plenary feedback References: <200008030339.FAA01035@henkell.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de> <200008031716.TAA28638@icasun1.epfl.ch> Message-Id: Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 13:51:19 -0400 Sender: owner-nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Precedence: bulk Status: O Content-Length: 85 Lines: 5 > NMRG is not the only group in NM to work like this. this is not an ietf wg randy Return-Path: Received: by mumm.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA24158 for nmrg-outgoing; Thu, 3 Aug 2000 19:50:00 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from wanderer.hardaker.davis.ca.us (IDENT:root@dcas107.ucdavis.edu [169.237.210.107]) by mumm.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA24153; Thu, 3 Aug 2000 19:49:58 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from hardaker@localhost) by wanderer.hardaker.davis.ca.us (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA02374; Thu, 3 Aug 2000 10:49:56 -0700 To: Juergen Schoenwaelder Cc: Network Management Research Group Subject: Re: [nmrg] plenary feedback References: <200008030339.FAA01035@henkell.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de> From: Wes Hardaker X-URL: http://dcas.ucdavis.edu/~hardaker X-Microsoft: Sucks Organization: U.C.Davis, Information Technology - D.C.A.S. X-Face: #qW^}a%m*T^{A:Cp}$R\"38+d}41-Z}uU8,r%F#c#s:~Nzp0G9](s?,K49KJ]s"*7gvRgA SrAvQc4@/}L7Qc=w{)]ACO\R{LF@S{pXfojjjGg6c;q6{~C}CxC^^&~(F]`1W)%9j/iS/ IM",B1M.?{w8ckLTYD'`|kTr\i\cgY)P4 Date: 03 Aug 2000 10:49:54 -0700 In-Reply-To: Juergen Schoenwaelder's message of "Thu, 3 Aug 2000 05:39:25 +0200" Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.0805 (Gnus v5.8.5) XEmacs/21.2 (Shinjuku) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Precedence: bulk Status: O Content-Length: 971 Lines: 21 >>>>> On Thu, 3 Aug 2000 05:39:25 +0200, Juergen Schoenwaelder said: Juergen> So we will probably have to have another round on the topic Juergen> whether we (a) keep things as they are now or (b) open this Juergen> list up and rely on the chair to find ways to stop any Juergen> discussions that distract this group from moving forward. I'm always on the fence on this issue. I think what we should do is to: 1) do the preliminary research in a small group (as it currently is). 2) but do a better job pushing it out faster. Possibly start up a second list that is open in which documents that have been published (eg, the already existing internet-drafts) can be discussed. This promote more review of the documents before they try to get moved into a IETF working group (and end up in a brawl like was recently started by the tcp draft). -- "Ninjas aren't dangerous. They're more afraid of you than you are of them." Return-Path: Received: by mumm.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA22619 for nmrg-outgoing; Thu, 3 Aug 2000 19:16:21 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from icasun1.epfl.ch (root@icasun1.epfl.ch [128.178.151.148]) by mumm.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA22615 for ; Thu, 3 Aug 2000 19:16:20 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from ica.epfl.ch (jpmf@tcomhp33.epfl.ch [128.178.151.24]) by icasun1.epfl.ch (8.8.X/EPFL-8.1d for ICA) with ESMTP id TAA28638; Thu, 3 Aug 2000 19:16:19 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <200008031716.TAA28638@icasun1.epfl.ch> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 From: "J.P. Martin-Flatin" To: Network Management Research Group Reply-To: "J.P. Martin-Flatin" Subject: Re: [nmrg] plenary feedback In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 03 Aug 2000 05:39:25 METDST." <200008030339.FAA01035@henkell.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 19:16:18 +0200 Sender: owner-nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Precedence: bulk Status: O Content-Length: 1392 Lines: 33 On Thu, 3 Aug 2000 05:39:25 +0200, Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote: > > The issue [...] is the openess of this effort. > > Some folks seem to believe that the fact that you can not directly > subscribe to the list is equal with some secret stuff going on behind > the scenes. NMRG is not the only group in NM to work like this. My registration with the DMTF WBEM Interoperability WG went through a similar procedure, with acceptance by the VP of Technology, then the WG chair. As far as I know, the DMTF WGs are not accused of lacking openness. Even academics can join this industrial consortium! > So we will probably have to have another round on the topic whether we > (a) keep things as they are now or (b) open this list up and rely on > the chair to find ways to stop any discussions that distract this > group from moving forward. I vote for (a). To give a better feeling of openness, we could perhaps remove the following phrase from the charter: ", with a maximum of approximately 12 members" People interested to join in, with a background in NM justifying a possible membership, might not give up thinking that all 12 positions are already filled. In view of the wide scope of research interests among the current members, I think we could increase the number of members, e.g. to 18 or 20. This could make it easier to reach a critical mass when we launch a new project. JP Return-Path: Received: by mumm.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA00368 for nmrg-outgoing; Thu, 3 Aug 2000 13:07:02 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from roam.psg.com (wireless-132-222.ietf.marconi.com [147.73.132.222]) by mumm.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA00362; Thu, 3 Aug 2000 13:07:00 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from randy by roam.psg.com with local (Exim 3.12 #1) id 13KIpv-00035p-00; Thu, 03 Aug 2000 07:06:51 -0400 From: Randy Bush MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Juergen Schoenwaelder Cc: Network Management Research Group Subject: Re: [nmrg] plenary feedback References: <200008030339.FAA01035@henkell.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de> Message-Id: Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 07:06:51 -0400 Sender: owner-nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Precedence: bulk Status: O Content-Length: 268 Lines: 8 > So we will probably have to have another round on the topic whether we > (a) keep things as they are now or (b) open this list up and rely on > the chair to find ways to stop any discussions that distract this > group from moving forward. next slide, please randy Return-Path: Received: by mumm.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA02384 for nmrg-outgoing; Thu, 3 Aug 2000 05:39:27 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from henkell.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (schoenw@henkell [134.169.34.191]) by mumm.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA02379; Thu, 3 Aug 2000 05:39:26 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from schoenw@localhost by henkell.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.7.6/tubsibr) id FAA01035; Thu, 3 Aug 2000 05:39:25 +0200 Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 05:39:25 +0200 Message-Id: <200008030339.FAA01035@henkell.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de> From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: Network Management Research Group Subject: [nmrg] plenary feedback Sender: owner-nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Precedence: bulk Status: O Content-Length: 908 Lines: 23 There was some Q&A after my presentation in Pittsburgh. I will not go into the details of the questions raised (since I think they are not all particularly relevant - although they kind of surprised me). The issue (which usually comes up in this context, as Erik Huizer pointed out) is the openess of this effort. Some folks seem to believe that the fact that you can not directly subscribe to the list is equal with some secret stuff going on behind the scenes. In fact, I thought about this issue before doing the presentation since it is clear that the requests to subscribe to this list will increase (and I always get a bounce message )-:). So we will probably have to have another round on the topic whether we (a) keep things as they are now or (b) open this list up and rely on the chair to find ways to stop any discussions that distract this group from moving forward. Comments welcome. /js