Received: from hansa.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (hansa.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de [134.169.34.81]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-5) with ESMTP id h2OJxbcB029804 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO); Mon, 24 Mar 2003 20:59:37 +0100 Received: from hansa.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hansa.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-5) with ESMTP id h2OJxaMr010916; Mon, 24 Mar 2003 20:59:36 +0100 Received: (from schoenw@localhost) by hansa.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-5) id h2OJxaqM010913; Mon, 24 Mar 2003 20:59:36 +0100 Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 20:59:36 +0100 Message-Id: <200303241959.h2OJxaqM010913@hansa.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de> From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: Network Management Research Group X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests= version=2.20 X-Spam-Level: Subject: [nmrg] meeting notes Sender: nmrg-admin@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Errors-To: nmrg-admin@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Below are my meeting notes from the weekend. /js * 12th NMRG meeting (Colorado Springs) Hosted by Intelliden with great support from John Strassner Attendees: - Olivier Festor Sa - David Harrington Sa - James Hong - Torsten Klie Sa - Emmanuel Nataf Sa - George Pavlou - David Perkins Sa - Aiko Pras Sa - Phil Shafer Sa - Jürgen Schönwälder Sa - Frank Strauß Sa - John Strassner Sa - Bert Wijnen * Agenda Saturday (2003-03-22) (13:00 - 17:00) + Welcome + Select note takers and minute producers + Status reports - Recent achievements - 11th meeting minutes - OID compression paper - ITU SG 4 input on SNMP over TCP + Latest IETF news (new/closed WGs, rumors and mysteries) + SMIng status report (F. Strauß, J. Schönwälder) + SMI -> XSD translation and gateway (T. Klie, F. Strauß) + Plans for dinner ;-) Sunday (2003-03-23) (09:00-12:00, 13:00-17:00) + Short summary of the Saturday meeting + Bert's input and comment on the latest IETF news + SMI -> XSD wrap up discussion + Technical XMLCONF discussion (Phil) + Wrap up and action items + Plans for dinner ;-) Tuesday (2003-03-25) (17:00-18:30) - IAB research funding document feedback - Restructuring and refocussing the NMRG * Note takers and minute producer - Dave Harrington, John and Jürgen take notes, John volunteers to produce minutes out of the notes. * Recent achievements - RFC 3440: On the Difference between Information Models and Data Models, January 2003 - RFC 3430: Simple Network Management Protocol Over Transmission Control Protocol Transport Mapping, December 2002 * Latest IETF news - SMIng and EOS working groups will be shut down - SNMP is going into maintenance mode, two potential ways to handle this: (a) working group to do maintenance with one task at a time (b) OPS area design team to do maintenance - PIBs will not be allowed on the standards track, further PIB work is discouraged - Readable MIBs still required from WGs, writeable MIBs are possible put not required (different interpretations of statements in various places have been observed about the precise interpretation of the last part of the statement) - XML configuration mgmt working group will likely be started - Operators should co-chair OPS working groups, at least a potential XML configuration mgmt working group - Wes thinks that SNMP fixes/evolution are still needed, even if XML might take over in the future - SNMPv3 might benefit from a session based security model in order to integrate better with established authentication mechanisms - Dave has more notes about the OPS area meeting... * SMIng discussion - Olivier and Emmanuel developed a proxy agent which implements SMIng objects for usage by management applications that only operate on SMIng objects. - With SNMP, you can easily turn SNMP instance data into a set of SMIng objects. - Might be possible to get the SMIng updates into the implementation. - No follow on projects from industries might imply not much further work on this. - Dave Perkins asks how much semantic checking is being done. - Dave Perkins asks whether there is a list of ambiguities. - Would be good to have the INRIA implementation consistent with the final SMIng documents. It is unlikely that libsmi will be upgraded to support the final SMIng document any time soon. - The INRIA implementation uses Java CC. - Action items: a) Emmanuel will talk to Frank to get comments integrated into the current documents b) Frank will contact COPS-PR mapping authors to see how we can update this document * SMI XSD translation and gateway - Torsten initiates discussion with his IM presentation - The "proprietary database of SNMP data" phrase on slide 4 causes some lively discussion. - Slides will be made available on the NMRG web site (action item for Torsten and Frank) - Dave Harrington asks whether storing communities in the XML is not a security issue. - Dave Perkins asks what is being done about different versions of MIB modules. - The SMIv2 allows to change names of named numbers which means the value representation might legally change between different MIB module revisions. - There are corner cases of OCTET STRING display hints which are not reversible. (Jürgen might be able to find an example in his mailing list archives.) - Some information is lost in the translation (descriptors of intermediate node, OID identities and constants). - Dave Perkins asked whether it was considered to more index values into an index element rather than using XML attributes. - Dave Perkins says that the xpath example misses namespaces and looks nicer than it would be if it were spelled out. - Aiko asks whether the xpath filter interpreter really belongs into the gateway or not better into the management application using the gateway. - Dave Perkins says that data might be stored in the gateway and updated regularily by a poller so that time domain queries are possible. - Both Daves think more future work is needed. - Bert asks what Frank's experiences are with writing XML Schema definitions. * XMLCONF discussion - Phil starts with giving a presentation about XMLCONF. - Juniper has 1.5 customers that operate like the "ideal world" model where the authoritative information is kept in a central database and all changes have to be made in the central database to be pushed to the devices. - Dave Perkins: XMLCONF is very different because there is an explicit asynchronous notification channel which is bound to a session. Additional channels might be added to support distribution of binary software images or for retrieval of statistics. - George says that XMLCONF could be improved by looking more at existing management protocols. - Dave Perkins explains on the white board why getting access to SNMP notifications is hard for management application writers. - Olivier asks whether there is a mechanism to subscribe to certain sets of notifications. Currently, XMLCONF does not have this capability. - Jürgen makes a statement that design decisions seem to be made out of feelings rather than being based on hard facts. For example, is BEEP as a transport a good viable choice? Is the home grown RPC layer really better than any of the existing layers? - A lengthy discussion about SOAP vs. XMLCONF RPC and BEEP vs. SSH/TLS and the various implications on the manager/agent side. * Action items a) Emmanuel will talk to Frank to get comments integrated into the revised SMIng documents b) Frank will contact COPS-PR mapping authors to see how we can update this document c) Torsten's und Frank's slides will be made available on the NMRG web site d) Aiko will finish the minutes of the last NMRG meeting this week! e) Dave Perkins will explain what a common model for booting is before the IM 2003 NMRG meeting and try to document things in written words f) Phil to send his slides to the NMRG g) Documentation of compression etc. work (Aiko, Juergen) h) John Strassner to produce final minutes from the notes taken by the note takers * Possible future NMRG items 1 Work on the network management vision that some people think is missing 2 Develop a session based security mechanism that integrates with AAA 3 Common model for booting 4 Investigate XMLCONF design decisions and their implications (such as protocol mappings / RPC mechanisms) 5 Map XMLCONF onto SOAP and prove that it does work (or does not work) 6 Experiment with Web Services for management (IF-MIB done as Web Services, Web Services toolkits, ...) 7 Compare efforts to implement certain functionalities with Web Services and traditional technologies 8 How to manage IPv6 networks 9 Management of upcoming technologies 10 Disappearing management and increased dependability 11 Cooperative management rather than hierarchical management Received: from hansa.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (hansa.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de [134.169.34.81]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-5) with ESMTP id h27AcG2w028858 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO); Fri, 7 Mar 2003 11:38:16 +0100 Received: from hansa.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hansa.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-5) with ESMTP id h27AcG11005265; Fri, 7 Mar 2003 11:38:16 +0100 Received: (from schoenw@localhost) by hansa.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-5) id h27AcGjD005262; Fri, 7 Mar 2003 11:38:16 +0100 Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2003 11:38:16 +0100 Message-Id: <200303071038.h27AcGjD005262@hansa.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de> From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: Network Management Research Group X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests= version=2.20 X-Spam-Level: Subject: [nmrg] upcoming meeting information Sender: nmrg-admin@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Errors-To: nmrg-admin@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: I have updated the web page for the upcoming meeting at http://www.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de/projects/nmrg/meetings/2003/colorado/ and I suggest that you take a look at it and contact me if there is something missing or incorrect. Some additional remarks: (1) I plan to work with Frank on the SMIng documents next week in order to revise them so that they get close to a publishable status. If we are successful, we will add the result to the reading list. (2) I like to spend some time on the IAB research funding document since it is in our very own interest to provide feedback. So please read this document before the meeting and do not be shy to use this mailing list if you have comments. ;-) (3) I would like to discuss some administrative things about how we run the NMRG. For example, I propose to open up the mailing list since the current setup creates administrative overhead and some repeated confusion. If you have other ideas related to how the NMRG operates, raise them either on this list before the meeting or be prepared to present them in Colorado Springs. (4) Note that I have planned quite some time for the discussion of the xmlconf aka netconf proposal. I think we should delve into the details of this proposal, trying to understand (and challenge where appropriate) the design decisions. Of course, this requires to read the specification before the meeting. I am looking forward to seeing you in Colorado Springs in a hopefully peaceful world. /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Received: from hansa.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (hansa.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de [134.169.34.81]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-5) with ESMTP id h26AL16e028626 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO); Thu, 6 Mar 2003 11:21:01 +0100 Received: from hansa.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hansa.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-5) with ESMTP id h26AL111022726; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 11:21:01 +0100 Received: (from schoenw@localhost) by hansa.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-5) id h26AL097022723; Thu, 6 Mar 2003 11:21:00 +0100 Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 11:21:00 +0100 Message-Id: <200303061021.h26AL097022723@hansa.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de> From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: John.Strassner@intelliden.com CC: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de In-reply-to: (message from John Strassner on Wed, 5 Mar 2003 08:57:39 -0700) Subject: Re: FW: [nmrg] 12th nmrg meeting details References: X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.4 required=5.0 tests=IN_REP_TO version=2.20 X-Spam-Level: Sender: nmrg-admin@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Errors-To: nmrg-admin@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: >>>>> John Strassner writes: John> Could everyone that plans on attending the NMRG meeting please John> respond (privately, one would hope ;-) ) to me so that I can John> arrange for access to the building, etc.? The list of people on the meeting web page at http://www.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de/projects/nmrg/meetings/2003/colorado/ should be fairly complete. (If not folks, let me know.) /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Received: from cosium01.intelliden.net (cosium01.intelliden.net [12.41.186.248]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-5) with ESMTP id h25Fvj6d022569 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 16:57:46 +0100 Received: by cosium01.intelliden.net with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 08:57:42 -0700 Message-ID: From: John Strassner To: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Subject: FW: [nmrg] 12th nmrg meeting details Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 08:57:39 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C2E32F.F3005AD0" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.2 required=5.0 tests=MIME_NULL_BLOCK,MAILTO_LINK version=2.20 X-Spam-Level: Sender: nmrg-admin@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Errors-To: nmrg-admin@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2E32F.F3005AD0 Content-Type: text/plain Could everyone that plans on attending the NMRG meeting please respond (privately, one would hope ;-) ) to me so that I can arrange for access to the building, etc.? regards, John John Strassner Chief Strategy Officer Intelliden Corporation 90 South Cascade Avenue Colorado Springs, CO 80903 USA phone: +1.719.785.0648 FAX: +1.719.785.0644 email: john.strassner@intelliden.com -----Original Message----- From: Phil Shafer [mailto:phil@juniper.net] Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 6:58 AM To: Juergen Schoenwaelder Cc: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Subject: Re: [nmrg] 12th nmrg meeting details Juergen Schoenwaelder writes: >I definately do not plan to continue after 6pm but concensus might >develop to stop even earlier. Does this help? I found a red-eye flying back, so quitting time doesn't matter so much. See you there..... Thanks, Phil -- !! This message is brought to you via the `nmrg' mailing list. !! Please do not reply to this message to unsubscribe. To unsubscribe or adjust !! your settings, send a mail message to !! or look at https://www.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de/mailman/listinfo/nmrg. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2E32F.F3005AD0 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable FW: [nmrg] 12th nmrg meeting details

Could everyone that plans on attending the NMRG = meeting please respond (privately, one would hope ;-) ) to me so that I = can arrange for access to the building, etc.?

regards,
John
 
John Strassner
Chief Strategy Officer
Intelliden Corporation
90 South Cascade Avenue
Colorado Springs, CO  80903  USA
phone: +1.719.785.0648
  FAX: +1.719.785.0644
email: john.strassner@intelliden.com
 


-----Original Message-----
From: Phil Shafer [mailto:phil@juniper.net]
Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 6:58 AM
To: Juergen Schoenwaelder
Cc: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de
Subject: Re: [nmrg] 12th nmrg meeting details =


Juergen Schoenwaelder writes:
>I definately do not plan to continue after 6pm = but concensus might
>develop to stop even earlier. Does this = help?

I found a red-eye flying back, so quitting time = doesn't matter so much. See you there.....

Thanks,
 Phil
--
!! This message is brought to you via the `nmrg' = mailing list. !! Please do not reply to this message to unsubscribe. To = unsubscribe or adjust !! your settings, send a mail message to = <nmrg-request@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de> !! or look at https://www.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de/mailman/listinfo/nmrg.=

------_=_NextPart_001_01C2E32F.F3005AD0-- Received: from merlot.juniper.net (natint.juniper.net [207.17.136.129]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-5) with ESMTP id h25DwO6e001047 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO); Wed, 5 Mar 2003 14:58:25 +0100 Received: from idle.juniper.net (leida.juniper.net [172.18.16.26]) by merlot.juniper.net (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id h25DwMS47016; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 05:58:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from phil@juniper.net) Received: from idle.juniper.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by idle.juniper.net (8.12.6/8.11.3) with ESMTP id h25DwMci060325; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 08:58:22 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from phil@idle.juniper.net) Message-Id: <200303051358.h25DwMci060325@idle.juniper.net> To: Juergen Schoenwaelder cc: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Subject: Re: [nmrg] 12th nmrg meeting details In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 05 Mar 2003 11:02:03 +0100." <200303051002.h25A23Dr010469@hansa.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de> Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 08:58:22 -0500 From: Phil Shafer X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.4 required=5.0 tests=IN_REP_TO version=2.20 X-Spam-Level: Sender: nmrg-admin@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Errors-To: nmrg-admin@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Juergen Schoenwaelder writes: >I definately do not plan to continue after 6pm but concensus might >develop to stop even earlier. Does this help? I found a red-eye flying back, so quitting time doesn't matter so much. See you there..... Thanks, Phil Received: from hansa.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (hansa.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de [134.169.34.81]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-5) with ESMTP id h25A23AU024559 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO); Wed, 5 Mar 2003 11:02:03 +0100 Received: from hansa.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hansa.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-5) with ESMTP id h25A2311010472; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 11:02:03 +0100 Received: (from schoenw@localhost) by hansa.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-5) id h25A23Dr010469; Wed, 5 Mar 2003 11:02:03 +0100 Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 11:02:03 +0100 Message-Id: <200303051002.h25A23Dr010469@hansa.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de> From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: phil@juniper.net CC: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de In-reply-to: <200302281817.h1SIHoci003102@idle.juniper.net> (message from Phil Shafer on Fri, 28 Feb 2003 13:17:50 -0500) Subject: Re: [nmrg] 12th nmrg meeting details References: <200302281817.h1SIHoci003102@idle.juniper.net> X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.4 required=5.0 tests=IN_REP_TO version=2.20 X-Spam-Level: Sender: nmrg-admin@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Errors-To: nmrg-admin@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.11 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: >>>>> Phil Shafer writes: Phil> I'm plannning on attended, Great news. Phil> but have one question. How late will the meeting run on the Phil> 23rd? I'm trying to figure out flights back home. I definately do not plan to continue after 6pm but concensus might develop to stop even earlier. Does this help? /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder