Received: from tierw.net.avaya.com (tierw.net.avaya.com [198.152.13.100]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.1) with ESMTP id j1OK92xt024514 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 21:09:04 +0100 Received: from tierw.net.avaya.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tierw.net.avaya.com (Switch-3.1.2/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id j1OJx0aB007708 for ; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 14:59:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from IS0004AVEXU1.global.avaya.com (h135-64-105-51.avaya.com [135.64.105.51]) by tierw.net.avaya.com (Switch-3.1.2/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id j1OJwKaB006556 for ; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 14:58:32 -0500 (EST) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6603.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: RE: [nmrg] another possible subject for the nmrg workshop on voip management Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 22:07:59 +0200 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [nmrg] another possible subject for the nmrg workshop on voip management Thread-index: AcUapPBZ1qfODOciQ6WI4KXe5jqU0QAB4psg From: "Romascanu, Dan \(Dan\)" To: , "Jean-Francois Mule" X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: 4.098 (****) BAYES_44,SUBJ_HAS_SPACES X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de id j1OK92xt024514 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 08:41:25 +0100 Cc: Cullen Jennings , Eduardo Cardona , klingle@cisco.com, Margaret Wasserman , nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de, Sumanth Channabasappa , henry@sinnreich.net X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 20:09:05 -0000 I can volunteer to be one of the scribes. Regards, Dan > -----Original Message----- > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder [mailto:j.schoenwaelder@iu-bremen.de] > Sent: 24 February, 2005 9:12 PM > To: Jean-Francois Mule > Cc: Margaret Wasserman; Romascanu, Dan (Dan); Cullen > Jennings; alan.d.clark@telchemy.com; klingle@cisco.com; > nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de; henry@sinnreich.net; Sumanth > Channabasappa; Eduardo Cardona > Subject: Re: [nmrg] another possible subject for the nmrg > workshop on voip management > > > On Thu, Feb 24, 2005 at 10:33:45AM -0700, Jean-Francois Mule wrote: > > [...] > > Jean-Francois and all others, thanks for all your input and the > discussion that was kicked off. I was trying to summarize the > issues that were mentioned here concerning VoIP management (and > I am sure I missed some). Here is my high-level list: > > VoIP management issues: > > a) call quality monitoring (loss, latency, jitter) > b) reliability (standy configurations) > c) emergency service capabilities > d) expected call quality and maximum call volume prediction > e) diagnose VoIP problems > f) security > g) gateway utilization monitoring > h) device provisioning models (using web services-like interfaces) > i) device management behind NATs and firewalls > j) mechanisms to secure software download > > For some issues, people actually posted much more detailed > descriptions > and we had some controversy where management is needed and how > distributed and self-organizing it can be. > > Rather than just having a nice discussion and an email archive that > we then ignore, I think it is useful to start a document which tries > to capture the management challenges and questions related to VoIP. > As a first step, one could take the issue list plus some descriptive > text and turn that into some document. Who is willing to help editing > something like that? > > /js > > -- > Juergen Schoenwaelder International University Bremen > P.O. Box 750 561, > 28725 Bremen, Germany > Received: from mx.cbeyond.com (mx.cbeyond.net [66.180.96.58]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.1) with ESMTP id j1OK5bxt023873 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 21:05:38 +0100 Received: from [64.238.103.215] (port=1916 helo=telws116) by mx.cbeyond.com with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1D4PEs-00069n-U7; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 15:05:35 -0500 From: "Alan Clark" To: , "Jean-Francois Mule" Subject: RE: [nmrg] another possible subject for the nmrg workshop on voip management Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 15:05:31 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <20050224191202.GB3650@james> X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: 4.098 (****) BAYES_44,SUBJ_HAS_SPACES X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 08:41:25 +0100 Cc: Cullen Jennings , "Romascanu, Dan \(Dan\)" , klingle@cisco.com, Margaret Wasserman , nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de, Eduardo Cardona , Sumanth Channabasappa , henry@sinnreich.net X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 20:05:39 -0000 Juergen I'd like to help with editing such a document, particularly related to performance related issues (a, d, e, g, i) Regards Alan -----Original Message----- From: Juergen Schoenwaelder [mailto:j.schoenwaelder@iu-bremen.de] Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 2:12 PM To: Jean-Francois Mule Cc: Margaret Wasserman; Romascanu, Dan (Dan); Cullen Jennings; alan.d.clark@telchemy.com; klingle@cisco.com; nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de; henry@sinnreich.net; Sumanth Channabasappa; Eduardo Cardona Subject: Re: [nmrg] another possible subject for the nmrg workshop on voip management On Thu, Feb 24, 2005 at 10:33:45AM -0700, Jean-Francois Mule wrote: [...] Jean-Francois and all others, thanks for all your input and the discussion that was kicked off. I was trying to summarize the issues that were mentioned here concerning VoIP management (and I am sure I missed some). Here is my high-level list: VoIP management issues: a) call quality monitoring (loss, latency, jitter) b) reliability (standy configurations) c) emergency service capabilities d) expected call quality and maximum call volume prediction e) diagnose VoIP problems f) security g) gateway utilization monitoring h) device provisioning models (using web services-like interfaces) i) device management behind NATs and firewalls j) mechanisms to secure software download For some issues, people actually posted much more detailed descriptions and we had some controversy where management is needed and how distributed and self-organizing it can be. Rather than just having a nice discussion and an email archive that we then ignore, I think it is useful to start a document which tries to capture the management challenges and questions related to VoIP. As a first step, one could take the issue list plus some descriptive text and turn that into some document. Who is willing to help editing something like that? /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder International University Bremen P.O. Box 750 561, 28725 Bremen, Germany Received: from box6.bluehost.com (box6.bluehost.com [209.63.57.146]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.1) with ESMTP id j1OK0Cxt022415 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 21:00:14 +0100 Message-Id: <200502242000.j1OK0Cxt022415@agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de> Received: from vpn-asq3-131-146-13-232.mcilink.com ([131.146.13.232] helo=ThinkpadT40) by box6.bluehost.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.44) id 1D4P8R-0005dH-12; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 12:58:55 -0700 From: To: , "'Jean-Francois Mule'" Subject: RE: [nmrg] another possible subject for the nmrg workshop on voip management Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 13:58:50 -0600 Organization: sinnreich.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 In-Reply-To: <20050224191202.GB3650@james> Thread-Index: AcUapMFN3g4wG4BMRkiQOQSLeQrZkQABTEAA X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-PopBeforeSMTPSenders: henry@sinnreich.net X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box6.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - sinnreich.net X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: 4.259 (****) NO_REAL_NAME,SUBJ_HAS_SPACES X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 08:41:25 +0100 Cc: 'Cullen Jennings' , "'Romascanu, Dan \(Dan\)'" , klingle@cisco.com, 'Margaret Wasserman' , nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de, 'Eduardo Cardona' , 'Sumanth Channabasappa' X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: henry@sinnreich.net List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 20:00:15 -0000 Myabe one-tow more item to add would be: h. Self organizing VoIP systems like Skype or P2P SIP, i. Separation of the network from the application for VoIP. The above reflect the exisiting public VoIP services. Thanks, Henry -----Original Message----- From: Juergen Schoenwaelder [mailto:j.schoenwaelder@iu-bremen.de] Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 1:12 PM To: Jean-Francois Mule Cc: Margaret Wasserman; Romascanu, Dan (Dan); Cullen Jennings; alan.d.clark@telchemy.com; klingle@cisco.com; nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de; henry@sinnreich.net; Sumanth Channabasappa; Eduardo Cardona Subject: Re: [nmrg] another possible subject for the nmrg workshop on voip management On Thu, Feb 24, 2005 at 10:33:45AM -0700, Jean-Francois Mule wrote: [...] Jean-Francois and all others, thanks for all your input and the discussion that was kicked off. I was trying to summarize the issues that were mentioned here concerning VoIP management (and I am sure I missed some). Here is my high-level list: VoIP management issues: a) call quality monitoring (loss, latency, jitter) b) reliability (standy configurations) c) emergency service capabilities d) expected call quality and maximum call volume prediction e) diagnose VoIP problems f) security g) gateway utilization monitoring h) device provisioning models (using web services-like interfaces) i) device management behind NATs and firewalls j) mechanisms to secure software download For some issues, people actually posted much more detailed descriptions and we had some controversy where management is needed and how distributed and self-organizing it can be. Rather than just having a nice discussion and an email archive that we then ignore, I think it is useful to start a document which tries to capture the management challenges and questions related to VoIP. As a first step, one could take the issue list plus some descriptive text and turn that into some document. Who is willing to help editing something like that? /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder International University Bremen P.O. Box 750 561, 28725 Bremen, Germany Received: from hermes.iu-bremen.de (hermes.iu-bremen.de [212.201.44.23]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.1) with ESMTP id j1OJCGxs010920 for ; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 20:12:17 +0100 Received: from localhost (demetrius.iu-bremen.de [212.201.44.32]) by hermes.iu-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07DD7D7A0; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 20:12:13 +0100 (CET) Received: from hermes.iu-bremen.de ([212.201.44.23]) by localhost (demetrius [212.201.44.32]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18997-09; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 20:12:12 +0100 (CET) Received: from james (I8cd3.i.pppool.de [85.73.140.211]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hermes.iu-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA0839C32; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 20:12:11 +0100 (CET) Received: from schoenw by james with local (Exim 4.34) id 1D4OP4-0000zd-7T; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 20:12:02 +0100 Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 20:12:02 +0100 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: Jean-Francois Mule Subject: Re: [nmrg] another possible subject for the nmrg workshop on voip management Message-ID: <20050224191202.GB3650@james> Mail-Followup-To: Jean-Francois Mule , Margaret Wasserman , "Romascanu, Dan (Dan)" , Cullen Jennings , alan.d.clark@telchemy.com, klingle@cisco.com, nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de, henry@sinnreich.net, Sumanth Channabasappa , Eduardo Cardona References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040907i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new 20030616p5 at demetrius.iu-bremen.de X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: -0.801 () BAYES_00,SUBJ_HAS_SPACES X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 20:13:08 +0100 Cc: Cullen Jennings , "Romascanu, Dan \(Dan\)" , klingle@cisco.com, Margaret Wasserman , nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de, Eduardo Cardona , Sumanth Channabasappa , henry@sinnreich.net X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: j.schoenwaelder@iu-bremen.de List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 19:12:19 -0000 On Thu, Feb 24, 2005 at 10:33:45AM -0700, Jean-Francois Mule wrote: [...] Jean-Francois and all others, thanks for all your input and the discussion that was kicked off. I was trying to summarize the issues that were mentioned here concerning VoIP management (and I am sure I missed some). Here is my high-level list: VoIP management issues: a) call quality monitoring (loss, latency, jitter) b) reliability (standy configurations) c) emergency service capabilities d) expected call quality and maximum call volume prediction e) diagnose VoIP problems f) security g) gateway utilization monitoring h) device provisioning models (using web services-like interfaces) i) device management behind NATs and firewalls j) mechanisms to secure software download For some issues, people actually posted much more detailed descriptions and we had some controversy where management is needed and how distributed and self-organizing it can be. Rather than just having a nice discussion and an email archive that we then ignore, I think it is useful to start a document which tries to capture the management challenges and questions related to VoIP. As a first step, one could take the issue list plus some descriptive text and turn that into some document. Who is willing to help editing something like that? /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder International University Bremen P.O. Box 750 561, 28725 Bremen, Germany Received: from ondar.cablelabs.com (ondar.cablelabs.com [192.160.73.61]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.1) with ESMTP id j1OHaIxs020978 for ; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 18:36:18 +0100 Received: from srvxchg.cablelabs.com (srvxchg.cablelabs.com [10.5.0.20]) by ondar.cablelabs.com (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id j1OHXlDU011786; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 10:33:47 -0700 (MST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6249.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: RE: [nmrg] another possible subject for the nmrg workshop on voip management Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 10:33:45 -0700 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [nmrg] another possible subject for the nmrg workshop on voip management Thread-Index: AcUaRSvPZPm09x1rRvGnyPDZbBi0gAAO7K2wAAO3YdA= From: "Jean-Francois Mule" To: X-Approved: ondar X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: 4.099 (****) SUBJ_HAS_SPACES X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de id j1OHaIxs020978 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 20:13:08 +0100 Cc: Cullen Jennings , "Romascanu, Dan \(Dan\)" , klingle@cisco.com, Margaret Wasserman , nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de, Eduardo Cardona , Sumanth Channabasappa , henry@sinnreich.net X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 17:36:20 -0000 Juergen and all, Interesting discussion. Here's some personal input. Juergen asked: > > a) Is there general interest to have such a workshop? Yes, on my side: absolutely. You also asked: > > I willing to spend cycles to organize such an event. But I need your > > help to get the right people together and I need strong indications > > that there is enough interest to justify time investment. There were good discussions from all about the decoupling of the voip service provider from the network provider and whether we mean "management" in a user-driven model or a service provider-driven model. I would agree wholeheartdly with Cullen, that in either case, consumers would benefit from more "management" capabilities at the application (V in VoIP) and (o in VoIP)network layers (IP in VoIP). To build on an example from Henry, my cell phone has some kind of indicators of connectivity to the BSC/MSC via those bars that mean something to the end users (remember the cool AT&T wireless ad for the mass during the olympics). Topics of interest to me: - device provisioning models using web services-like interfaces (that may be where we could plug in the netconf/webdav/sip xcap/sip config framework discussions). Some of the mentioned VoIP services (Vonage, skype) hardcode some info in the devices... There should be models here that could allow users and/or operators to configure pieces of the service definition in a flexible manner (the operator does http download of the config params upon service activation or device boot up - params described in an extensible langage format, while as an end-user, I fire up my firefox browser and for the same device, I allow tell the device that if my personal pref is to use encrypted sig and media for all my communications but if my son logs in on that sip device, he is ok with no sRTP). May be that is bad example but you see the range of options. - device management behind NATs and firewalls: this is something that is not specific to VoIP. a) how can users or service providers get devices behind NATs and firewalls to return some useful information about their status (provisioning status, led status, software upgrade mode, etc.), the service state (SIP, presence, etc.), the network state as perceived by the device (this is where I think we missed some points earlier), the voice quality status (rtcp xr rfc3611), etc. -- equivalent to snmp get/get bulk b) how can users or service providers get devices to change an entire config file or just one parameter -- snmp set SNNP is not going to cut it even in well-"behave"d environments. As an end-user, I basically have to ssh in my home net to then get a view of my ip services using CLI. I can live with it but shouldn't we have higher goals (to manage large scale voip networks with various service control models)? If this is a done deal and defined somewhere, btw - let me know, this is a priority for us. In SIP, we're starting to see interesting models: use the established signaling links to trigger the device to push some data back. Is this a viable and scalable model to manage IP-based services behind NATs? There is a bunch of toolkits using various ietf protocols out there that we can leverage but getting some folks talk about their needs/requirements and some others talk about how they would like to manage networks would help define some directions (and some conclusions may be - do nothing but I highly doubt it). - mechanisms to secure software download (device config file, device code image): is it: http://ietfreport.isoc.org/all-ids/draft-housley-cms-fw-wrap-11.txt Or, is it what the cable MSOs and CableLabs have defined it for cable modems and packetcable voip devices deployed in millions using the poorly secured tftp or more suitable http/https protocols? Or something else for sip-based voip networks? Again, it still matters for user models (I may like to run an open source tool on my linux home server that can serve my pingtel phone as well as my fwd client and my instant messaging client - all of which share what outbound sip proxy they use on my home network, where to send incoming sip event notifications to based on where I am), etc. As a device manufacturer, some vendors may appreciate having not one way but a number of guidelines for a couple ways of doing those kinds of things the same way for residential/enterprise/service provider environments, whether they sell sip boxes to provider x, enterprise y or to user b. And may be this would allow me to run a cvs diff on all my device config files to make sure nobody hacked into them and uploaded a hacked config file that allows them to make voice calls on my behalf. All I can say is that I think we would benefit from some guidance on how to do things better here so that we don't develop multiple methods of doing the same thing. Jean-Francois --- Jean-François Mulé CableLabs office: +1 303 661 3708 email: jfm@cablelabs.com Received: from box6.bluehost.com (box6.bluehost.com [209.63.57.146]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.1) with ESMTP id j1OF8gxt016213 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 16:08:43 +0100 Message-Id: <200502241508.j1OF8gxt016213@agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de> Received: from vpn-asq3-131-146-13-232.mcilink.com ([131.146.13.232] helo=ThinkpadT40) by box6.bluehost.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.44) id 1D4KaG-0005jf-5h; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 08:07:20 -0700 From: To: Subject: RE: [nmrg] another possible subject for the nmrg workshop on voip management Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 09:07:14 -0600 Organization: sinnreich.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 In-Reply-To: <20050224074801.GB2284@james> Thread-Index: AcUaRSvPZPm09x1rRvGnyPDZbBi0gAAO7K2w X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-PopBeforeSMTPSenders: henry@sinnreich.net X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box6.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - sinnreich.net X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: 4.259 (****) NO_REAL_NAME,SUBJ_HAS_SPACES X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Cc: 'Cullen Jennings' , "'Romascanu, Dan \(Dan\)'" , jf.mule@cablelabs.com, nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de, 'Margaret Wasserman' , klingle@cisco.com X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: henry@sinnreich.net List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 15:08:46 -0000 Juergen, >who is going to provide properties such as quality What is the question: Bandwidth is the answer! :-) >and reliability now that many more players are going to be involved Geographic diversity and Internet-centric reliability. Both the Sept 11 attack in the US and the recent floods in Central Europe have proven that Internet communications did not fail, while telcos and wireless were out of service for days and weeks. Telco central offices and centralized control are a disaster waiting to happen, no matter how much the five nines PR stories (99.999%) try to obfuscate this simple truth. Henry -----Original Message----- From: Juergen Schoenwaelder [mailto:j.schoenwaelder@iu-bremen.de] Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 1:48 AM To: henry@sinnreich.net Cc: 'Margaret Wasserman'; 'Romascanu, Dan (Dan)'; 'Cullen Jennings'; alan.d.clark@telchemy.com; klingle@cisco.com; jf.mule@cablelabs.com; nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Subject: Re: [nmrg] another possible subject for the nmrg workshop on voip management On Wed, Feb 23, 2005 at 07:50:02PM -0600, henry@sinnreich.net wrote: > No network management is used by any public/consumer VoIP provider > today, for the simple reason that they don't own any network infrastrucure. I agree that this is a very major point. VoIP really separates the VoIP service provider from the network service provider (and this is in my view the biggest thread to classic telcos who used to sell both mixed together). This separation creates a lot of opportunities for new players in the market but it also raises the question who is going to provide properties such as quality and reliability now that many more players are going to be involved. I think we are facing some interesting years full of changes. /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder International University Bremen P.O. Box 750 561, 28725 Bremen, Germany Received: from hermes.iu-bremen.de (hermes.iu-bremen.de [212.201.44.23]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.1) with ESMTP id j1ODlcxs027930 for ; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 14:47:38 +0100 Received: from localhost (demetrius.iu-bremen.de [212.201.44.32]) by hermes.iu-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F2319AD3; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 14:47:35 +0100 (CET) Received: from hermes.iu-bremen.de ([212.201.44.23]) by localhost (demetrius [212.201.44.32]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 30749-07; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 14:47:33 +0100 (CET) Received: from james (unknown [10.50.240.233]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hermes.iu-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD785998E; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 14:47:33 +0100 (CET) Received: from schoenw by james with local (Exim 4.34) id 1D4JL3-0000dQ-Mh; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 14:47:33 +0100 Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 14:47:33 +0100 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: "Romascanu, Dan (Dan)" Subject: Re: [nmrg] another possible subject for the nmrg workshop on voip management Message-ID: <20050224134733.GB2329@james> Mail-Followup-To: "Romascanu, Dan (Dan)" , henry@sinnreich.net, Cullen Jennings , jf.mule@cablelabs.com, nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de, Margaret Wasserman , klingle@cisco.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040907i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new 20030616p5 at demetrius.iu-bremen.de X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: -0.908 () BAYES_10 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Cc: Cullen Jennings , jf.mule@cablelabs.com, klingle@cisco.com, nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de, Margaret Wasserman , henry@sinnreich.net X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: j.schoenwaelder@iu-bremen.de List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 13:47:40 -0000 On Thu, Feb 24, 2005 at 02:17:14PM +0200, Romascanu, Dan (Dan) wrote: > Your employer must be rich :-) Not all customers can afford a separate > enterprise infrastructure for voice (and fiber-based). All universities / enterprises I have been with so far had (sometimes too) separate voice and data networks. And even if you run things over a single physical cable, you will logically separate the traffic from the classic phones into a separate VLAN or whatever technology you can use. > But even in this > case there is a cost for provisioning the IP telephony system (users > rights and preferences, dial-plans, etc.), administering moves and > changes, maintaining the network that is rather independent of the > infrastructure, etc. to make the miracle happen. I believe that this > is part of the scope of 'VoIP management'. Sure, these tasks do not go away. But the question is to which extend you want/need new approaches to support/automate such tasks. > Without trying to exercise on you the marketing pitch of the companies > selling VoIP I would point that there are other arguments than just > cost. One of them is the application integration, which in some > cases makes use of the capabilities to run concurrent multi-media > services from the same host. These include a mix of voice, video, > messaging, file transfer, Web access, etc. which not only runs on > the same hosts and through the same cables, bridges, routers, but > also makes the infrastructure and services configuration a more > complex and challenging task. Believe it or not, there are lots of users who like phones more or less as they are. For those enterprises I am familiar with, cost was the real motivation to look at VoIP solutions, not necessarily added features. And if I look at colleagues and students here on our international campus, many of them use some VoIP services to call their friends at home. And the prime reason to get started using VoIP is again cost and not added features. (Talking into a computer is not necessarily a better experience compared to using a phone.) I believe that the VoIP move is driven by many different things, several most likely heavily influenced by regional differences. The cost reduction motivation I have observed might be less significant in other regions of the world. /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder International University Bremen P.O. Box 750 561, 28725 Bremen, Germany Received: from tierw.net.avaya.com (tierw.net.avaya.com [198.152.13.100]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.1) with ESMTP id j1OCHYxt005925 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 13:17:35 +0100 Received: from tierw.net.avaya.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tierw.net.avaya.com (Switch-3.1.2/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id j1OC7XaB027269 for ; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 07:07:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from IS0004AVEXU1.global.avaya.com (h135-64-105-51.avaya.com [135.64.105.51]) by tierw.net.avaya.com (Switch-3.1.2/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id j1OC7VaB027211 for ; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 07:07:32 -0500 (EST) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6603.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: RE: [nmrg] another possible subject for the nmrg workshop on voip management Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 14:17:14 +0200 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [nmrg] another possible subject for the nmrg workshop on voip management Thread-index: AcUaZzxvwGAKd0Z0Tsaf/rpPmAOypwAAcaiA From: "Romascanu, Dan \(Dan\)" To: X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de id j1OCHYxt005925 Cc: Cullen Jennings , jf.mule@cablelabs.com, klingle@cisco.com, nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de, Margaret Wasserman , henry@sinnreich.net X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 12:17:37 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder [mailto:j.schoenwaelder@iu-bremen.de] > Sent: 24 February, 2005 1:52 PM > > On Thu, Feb 24, 2005 at 11:21:00AM +0200, Romascanu, Dan (Dan) wrote: > > > Yes... > > > > ...but there is also the 'Intranet' deployment scenario that is of > > interest for many customers in the enterprise market. These > customers > > do own in many cases both their network infrastructure and the VoIP > > service. It's not always a fully controlled environment, because on > > distributed deployments they need to run their inter-site > links over > > networking infrastructure that is not under their full control or > > does not belong to them (sometimes). The level of control over the > > infrastructure is however higher than in the case of a VoIP service > > provider in the wild Internet. > > The enterprise which pays me was considering to switch over to VoIP > and I guess we are very similar to other enterprises. We have several > fibers which are currently exclusively used to run phone calls. If > we were to switch to VoIP, we would simply use the same fibers to > run IP and the phone calls via VoIP. In other words, we would keep > the core phone network separated from the core data network since > we already have the separate fibers in place. Sure, there would be > a place where we would cross over to the public network so that we > can route voice traffic directly into other voice networks. But > this would be a very carefully designed gateway. Since I assume > a separate dedicated VoIP network within an enterprise, the > assumption that it is simply good enough to provide the desired > transport service might actually be valid. > > The real reason to look for VoIP is actually the extraordinary > prices for traditional enterprise phone systems. But they are > coming down quickly now. > > /js Your employer must be rich :-) Not all customers can afford a separate enterprise infrastructure for voice (and fiber-based). But even in this case there is a cost for provisioning the IP telephony system (users rights and preferences, dial-plans, etc.), administering moves and changes, maintaining the network that is rather independent of the infrastructure, etc. to make the miracle happen. I believe that this is part of the scope of 'VoIP management'. Without trying to exercise on you the marketing pitch of the companies selling VoIP I would point that there are other arguments than just cost. One of them is the application integration, which in some cases makes use of the capabilities to run concurrent multi-media services from the same host. These include a mix of voice, video, messaging, file transfer, Web access, etc. which not only runs on the same hosts and through the same cables, bridges, routers, but also makes the infrastructure and services configuration a more complex and challenging task. Regards, Dan Received: from hermes.iu-bremen.de (hermes.iu-bremen.de [212.201.44.23]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.1) with ESMTP id j1OBq6xs031922 for ; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 12:52:06 +0100 Received: from localhost (demetrius.iu-bremen.de [212.201.44.32]) by hermes.iu-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75A3AB88A; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 12:52:03 +0100 (CET) Received: from hermes.iu-bremen.de ([212.201.44.23]) by localhost (demetrius [212.201.44.32]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23287-02; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 12:52:02 +0100 (CET) Received: from james (unknown [10.50.240.233]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hermes.iu-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6598E9C2C; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 12:52:02 +0100 (CET) Received: from schoenw by james with local (Exim 4.34) id 1D4HXG-0000b1-4Z; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 12:52:02 +0100 Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 12:52:02 +0100 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: "Romascanu, Dan (Dan)" Subject: Re: [nmrg] another possible subject for the nmrg workshop on voip management Message-ID: <20050224115202.GA2239@james> Mail-Followup-To: "Romascanu, Dan (Dan)" , henry@sinnreich.net, Cullen Jennings , jf.mule@cablelabs.com, nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de, Margaret Wasserman , klingle@cisco.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040907i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new 20030616p5 at demetrius.iu-bremen.de X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: -4.9 () BAYES_00 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Cc: Cullen Jennings , jf.mule@cablelabs.com, klingle@cisco.com, nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de, Margaret Wasserman , henry@sinnreich.net X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: j.schoenwaelder@iu-bremen.de List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 11:52:13 -0000 On Thu, Feb 24, 2005 at 11:21:00AM +0200, Romascanu, Dan (Dan) wrote: > Yes... > > ...but there is also the 'Intranet' deployment scenario that is of > interest for many customers in the enterprise market. These customers > do own in many cases both their network infrastructure and the VoIP > service. It's not always a fully controlled environment, because on > distributed deployments they need to run their inter-site links over > networking infrastructure that is not under their full control or > does not belong to them (sometimes). The level of control over the > infrastructure is however higher than in the case of a VoIP service > provider in the wild Internet. The enterprise which pays me was considering to switch over to VoIP and I guess we are very similar to other enterprises. We have several fibers which are currently exclusively used to run phone calls. If we were to switch to VoIP, we would simply use the same fibers to run IP and the phone calls via VoIP. In other words, we would keep the core phone network separated from the core data network since we already have the separate fibers in place. Sure, there would be a place where we would cross over to the public network so that we can route voice traffic directly into other voice networks. But this would be a very carefully designed gateway. Since I assume a separate dedicated VoIP network within an enterprise, the assumption that it is simply good enough to provide the desired transport service might actually be valid. The real reason to look for VoIP is actually the extraordinary prices for traditional enterprise phone systems. But they are coming down quickly now. /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder International University Bremen P.O. Box 750 561, 28725 Bremen, Germany Received: from tierw.net.avaya.com (tierw.net.avaya.com [198.152.13.100]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.1) with ESMTP id j1O9LWxt028314 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 10:21:33 +0100 Received: from tierw.net.avaya.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tierw.net.avaya.com (Switch-3.1.2/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id j1O9BKaB010197 for ; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 04:11:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from IS0004AVEXU1.global.avaya.com (h135-64-105-51.avaya.com [135.64.105.51]) by tierw.net.avaya.com (Switch-3.1.2/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id j1O9BHaB010168 for ; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 04:11:18 -0500 (EST) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6603.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: RE: [nmrg] another possible subject for the nmrg workshop on voip management Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 11:21:00 +0200 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [nmrg] another possible subject for the nmrg workshop on voip management Thread-index: AcUaRScdry/HgMUIRoediUKAVefMYAAC+4iQ From: "Romascanu, Dan \(Dan\)" To: , X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: 4.098 (****) BAYES_44,SUBJ_HAS_SPACES X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de id j1O9LWxt028314 Cc: Cullen Jennings , jf.mule@cablelabs.com, nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de, Margaret Wasserman , klingle@cisco.com X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 09:21:35 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder [mailto:j.schoenwaelder@iu-bremen.de] > Sent: 24 February, 2005 9:48 AM > To: henry@sinnreich.net > Cc: 'Margaret Wasserman'; Romascanu, Dan (Dan); 'Cullen > Jennings'; alan.d.clark@telchemy.com; klingle@cisco.com; > jf.mule@cablelabs.com; nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de > Subject: Re: [nmrg] another possible subject for the nmrg > workshop on voip management > > > On Wed, Feb 23, 2005 at 07:50:02PM -0600, henry@sinnreich.net wrote: > > > No network management is used by any public/consumer VoIP > provider today, > > for the simple reason that they don't own any network infrastrucure. > > I agree that this is a very major point. VoIP really separates the > VoIP service provider from the network service provider (and this is > in my view the biggest thread to classic telcos who used to sell > both mixed together). This separation creates a lot of opportunities > for new players in the market but it also raises the question who > is going to provide properties such as quality and reliability now > that many more players are going to be involved. > Yes... ...but there is also the 'Intranet' deployment scenario that is of interest for many customers in the enterprise market. These customers do own in many cases both their network infrastructure and the VoIP service. It's not always a fully controlled environment, because on distributed deployments they need to run their inter-site links over networking infrastructure that is not under their full control or does not belong to them (sometimes). The level of control over the infrastructure is however higher than in the case of a VoIP service provider in the wild Internet. Regards, Dan > Received: from hermes.iu-bremen.de (hermes.iu-bremen.de [212.201.44.23]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.1) with ESMTP id j1O7m7xs005218 for ; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 08:48:07 +0100 Received: from localhost (demetrius.iu-bremen.de [212.201.44.32]) by hermes.iu-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDBB79C7E; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 08:48:04 +0100 (CET) Received: from hermes.iu-bremen.de ([212.201.44.23]) by localhost (demetrius [212.201.44.32]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06962-01; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 08:48:04 +0100 (CET) Received: from james (I8951.i.pppool.de [85.73.137.81]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hermes.iu-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id E57313239; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 08:48:03 +0100 (CET) Received: from schoenw by james with local (Exim 4.34) id 1D4Dj7-0000u7-Ja; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 08:48:01 +0100 Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 08:48:01 +0100 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: henry@sinnreich.net Subject: Re: [nmrg] another possible subject for the nmrg workshop on voip management Message-ID: <20050224074801.GB2284@james> Mail-Followup-To: henry@sinnreich.net, 'Margaret Wasserman' , "'Romascanu, Dan (Dan)'" , 'Cullen Jennings' , alan.d.clark@telchemy.com, klingle@cisco.com, jf.mule@cablelabs.com, nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de References: <20050224015020.852279C7E@hermes.iu-bremen.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20050224015020.852279C7E@hermes.iu-bremen.de> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040907i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new 20030616p5 at demetrius.iu-bremen.de X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: -0.801 () BAYES_00,SUBJ_HAS_SPACES X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Cc: 'Cullen Jennings' , "'Romascanu, Dan \(Dan\)'" , jf.mule@cablelabs.com, nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de, 'Margaret Wasserman' , klingle@cisco.com X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: j.schoenwaelder@iu-bremen.de List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 07:48:08 -0000 On Wed, Feb 23, 2005 at 07:50:02PM -0600, henry@sinnreich.net wrote: > No network management is used by any public/consumer VoIP provider today, > for the simple reason that they don't own any network infrastrucure. I agree that this is a very major point. VoIP really separates the VoIP service provider from the network service provider (and this is in my view the biggest thread to classic telcos who used to sell both mixed together). This separation creates a lot of opportunities for new players in the market but it also raises the question who is going to provide properties such as quality and reliability now that many more players are going to be involved. I think we are facing some interesting years full of changes. /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder International University Bremen P.O. Box 750 561, 28725 Bremen, Germany Received: from box6.bluehost.com (box6.bluehost.com [209.63.57.146]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.1) with ESMTP id j1O1oTxt023377 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 24 Feb 2005 02:50:30 +0100 Message-Id: <200502240150.j1O1oTxt023377@agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de> Received: from vpn-idc7-131-146-59-63.mcilink.com ([131.146.59.63] helo=ThinkpadT40) by box6.bluehost.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.44) id 1D488o-0003wY-3A; Wed, 23 Feb 2005 18:50:10 -0700 From: To: "'Margaret Wasserman'" , "'Romascanu, Dan \(Dan\)'" , "'Cullen Jennings'" , , , , Subject: RE: [nmrg] another possible subject for the nmrg workshop on voip management Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 19:50:02 -0600 Organization: sinnreich.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 In-Reply-To: X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Thread-index: AcUZpxFGpju17mSSQPe7QVxYV0UlTAAaTeQA X-PopBeforeSMTPSenders: henry@sinnreich.net X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box6.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [0 0] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - sinnreich.net X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: 4.259 (****) NO_REAL_NAME,SUBJ_HAS_SPACES X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 08:25:27 +0100 Cc: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: henry@sinnreich.net List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 01:50:33 -0000 Margaret, Great minds think alike! (I am not trying to be funny). I also share the view that VoIP works very well on the Internet 'as is', or there would be no Vonage or Skype or all the other existing public VoIP providers. My Packet8 video phone works also OK, so does XTEN eyeBeam and Microsoft Live Communications Client (the successor to the Windows Messenger). No network management is used by any public/consumer VoIP provider today, for the simple reason that they don't own any network infrastrucure. Obviously one has to avoid network congestion, but this is a generic requirement, not VoIP specific. Using codecs designed for the Internet like the iLBC also helps, instead of running fossils like G.711 and G.729, as are still unfortunately in use in most IP-PSTN gateways. "QoS does not create bandwidth" (Dr. Lixia Zhang, UCLA) Henry -----Original Message----- From: Margaret Wasserman [mailto:margaret@thingmagic.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 6:56 AM To: Romascanu, Dan (Dan); henry@sinnreich.net; Cullen Jennings; j.schoenwaelder@iu-bremen.de; alan.d.clark@telchemy.com; klingle@cisco.com; jf.mule@cablelabs.com Cc: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Subject: Re: [nmrg] another possible subject for the nmrg workshop on voip management Personally, I think that this is a really interesting question... Put another way, does VOIP infrastructure really differ enough from IP infrastructure that they need their own configuration protocols? If so, what is different about it that makes network configuration protocols inadequate? Could we modify/extend existing network configuration protocols to make them more useful for VOIP? Margaret At 2:14 PM +0200 2/21/05, Romascanu, Dan \(Dan\) wrote: content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C5180E.DED98ED6" Let me stir a little bit more the pot and raise another item that I believe is worth being discussed in the projected workshop. Why do VoIP WGs, and especially the SIP-related ones need to define specialized protocols for each purpose and application rather than looking around for using existing protocols and languages? Sometimes it looks to me like SIP tries to re-invent every wheel already turning in the IETF. Do we really need XCAP and XCON when we have NETCONF and WebDAV? ... yes, I know this may not be a popular view either :-) Regards, Dan -- !! This message is brought to you via the `nmrg' mailing list. !! Please do not reply to this message to unsubscribe. To unsubscribe or adjust !! your settings, send a mail message to !! or look at https://www.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de/mailman/listinfo/nmrg. Received: from thingmagic.com (tm-gw2.cictr.com [204.9.221.21] (may be forged)) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.1) with ESMTP id j1NCuHxs010742 for ; Wed, 23 Feb 2005 13:56:17 +0100 Received: from [24.61.30.237] (account margaret HELO [192.168.2.2]) by thingmagic.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.1.8) with ESMTP-TLS id 292757; Wed, 23 Feb 2005 07:54:30 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 07:55:45 -0500 To: "Romascanu, Dan \(Dan\)" , , "Cullen Jennings" , , , , From: Margaret Wasserman Subject: Re: [nmrg] another possible subject for the nmrg workshop on voip management Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 08:24:48 +0100 Cc: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 12:56:21 -0000 Personally, I think that this is a really interesting question... Put another way, does VOIP infrastructure really differ enough from IP infrastructure that they need their own configuration protocols? If so, what is different about it that makes network configuration protocols inadequate? Could we modify/extend existing network configuration protocols to make them more useful for VOIP? Margaret At 2:14 PM +0200 2/21/05, Romascanu, Dan \(Dan\) wrote: content-class: urn:content-classes:message Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C5180E.DED98ED6" Let me stir a little bit more the pot and raise another item that I believe is worth being discussed in the projected workshop. Why do VoIP WGs, and especially the SIP-related ones need to define specialized protocols for each purpose and application rather than looking around for using existing protocols and languages? Sometimes it looks to me like SIP tries to re-invent every wheel already turning in the IETF. Do we really need XCAP and XCON when we have NETCONF and WebDAV? ... yes, I know this may not be a popular view either :-) Regards, Dan -- !! This message is brought to you via the `nmrg' mailing list. !! Please do not reply to this message to unsubscribe. To unsubscribe or adjust !! your settings, send a mail message to !! or look at https://www.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de/mailman/listinfo/nmrg. Received: from tierw.net.avaya.com (tierw.net.avaya.com [198.152.13.100]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.1) with ESMTP id j1NCQBxt002866 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 23 Feb 2005 13:26:12 +0100 Received: from tierw.net.avaya.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tierw.net.avaya.com (Switch-3.1.2/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id j1NCGAaB021385 for ; Wed, 23 Feb 2005 07:16:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from IS0004AVEXU1.global.avaya.com (h135-64-105-51.avaya.com [135.64.105.51]) by tierw.net.avaya.com (Switch-3.1.2/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id j1NCEbaB018122 for ; Wed, 23 Feb 2005 07:15:10 -0500 (EST) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6603.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: RE: [nmrg] nmrg workshop on voip management Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 14:24:19 +0200 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [nmrg] nmrg workshop on voip management Thread-index: AcUYr3u7vxlG7ZT/QvOR06e4DobcoQA8TfIQ From: "Romascanu, Dan \(Dan\)" To: "Alan Clark" X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: -0.908 () BAYES_10 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de id j1NCQBxt002866 Cc: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 12:26:14 -0000 Alan, As you know I am a supporter of a VoIP performance management framework for quite a while. Actually the Area Directors of the O&M and Transport Areas encouraged us to write an Internet-Draft defining such a framework. I do not know if there is work for such a document in other SDOs, but if there is not I would suggest that the timing may be right for such a document in the IETF, which may become a BCP RFC - maybe sponsored by the nmrg. I agree with all the general ideas that you are listing, I would just add a few points: 1. There is value in seeing VoIP traffic in the context of the general network behavior, especially with respect with Transport Performance Monitoring and Application Performance Monitoring. This is one point where RAQMON can help, integrated within the RMON family of protocols 2. VoIP QoS is not characterized only by media monitoring but also by session initiation and continuity metrics. Such parameters should be added to the list of metrics provided by RTCP-XR 3. The framework needs to deal with the issue of scalability, taking into account the large scale deployments typical to VoIP lately. Polling by SNMP would not scale beyond a certain limit, and this is were monitoring architecture like RAQMON can help with a collectors architecture that ensures data reduction and threshold-based reporting. 4. The VoIP performance monitoring framework needs to take into consideration the issues of encrypted payload and signaling deployment, which will become more popular with the deployment of protocols like IPSec and SRTP. Regards, Dan > -----Original Message----- > From: nmrg-bounces@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de > [mailto:nmrg-bounces@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de]On Behalf Of Alan Clark > Sent: 21 February, 2005 4:51 PM > To: Romascanu, Dan (Dan) > Cc: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de > Subject: RE: [nmrg] nmrg workshop on voip management > > > > Dan > > With regard to your suggestion of a VoIP performance > management framework - > there is a body of work in that has been emerging over the > last several > years. This is based on the following general ideas:- > > 1. As problems are often transient and can result from the > interaction of a > number of different parameters then it makes sense to both > measure and do > per-call correlation at key points within the network, notably at IP > endpoints. This has led to the development of lightweight > agents that can > be integrated directly into IP endpoints, able to report > estimated call > quality and supporting diagnostic data. > > 2. It makes sense to define a single set of VoIP metrics and use this > independently of the protocol used for reporting/ retrieval > > 3. In order to understand some types of problem (e.g. echo) > it is desirable > to exchange information between two IP endpoints. > > 4. One model for retrieving data from IP phones and > residential gateways is > to use a lightweight "push" model. This should ideally be > signaling system > independent and capable of penetrating firewall routers. > > 5. By extending RTCP to carry a useful set of VoIP metrics > (2) then 3 and 4 > can be satisfied (i.e. RTCP XR) > > 6. We need a MIB that supports retrieval of this set of VoIP > metrics (the > RTCP XR MIB draft) > > 7. To support service management it is desirable to also > report through the > signaling system, to allow call quality metrics to be > incorporated in call > detail records. There are now published ITU standards for > H.323 and Megaco > and IETF drafts for SIP and MGCP to support the transmission > of the same set > of metrics through the signaling system. > > This model has been adopted by the US Cable Industry as the > VoIP performance > management architecture for PacketCable 1.5, and hence has > been shown to > work in at least one environment. > > Regards > > Alan > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nmrg-bounces@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de > [mailto:nmrg-bounces@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de]On Behalf Of Romascanu, Dan (Dan) > Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2005 11:28 AM > To: j.schoenwaelder@iu-bremen.de > Cc: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de > Subject: RE: [nmrg] nmrg workshop on voip management > > > Juergen, > > Here are a few issues I encountered in the VoIP management > space in the last > few years, and which may be items for such a workshop: > > 1. 'Generic' IP management protocols (SNMP, NETCONF, WebDAV) vs. > 'specialized' IP telephony and IP telephony applications configuration > protocols (XCCAP, XCON, etc.) > > 2. Configuration management and provisioning: > - centralized (IP PBX, media servers) and distributed devices > (gateways and > IP phones) configuration > - provisioning architectures and protocols in service providers and > enterprise (large, small) deployments > > 3. VoIP Performance management > - work on a common performance management framework for VoIP > - combined use of IP telephony control protocols (RTCP, SIP) and SNMP > - protocols used for VoIP performance monitoring RTCP-XR, > RAQMON, NetFlow, > etc. > - passive vs. active (synthetic sources) > > 4. Faults Management > - ITU Alarm Information model as described in ITU > Recommendation M.3100, > X.733, X.736 and RFC 3877 > > 5. Topology management extensions for IP telephony > - TR 41.1 Link Layer Discovery Protocol for Media Endpoint Devices > (LLDP-MED) > > Regards, > > Dan > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder [mailto:j.schoenwaelder@iu-bremen.de] > > Sent: 18 February, 2005 12:51 PM > > To: Romascanu, Dan (Dan) > > Cc: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de > > Subject: Re: [nmrg] nmrg workshop on voip management > > > > > > On Fri, Feb 18, 2005 at 12:47:13PM +0200, Romascanu, Dan > (Dan) wrote: > > > > > If you are interested I can prepare a list of issues which > > I believe > > > are of interest in VoIP management. > > > > I am certainly interest in such a list of issues. Feel free to post > > something to this mailing list. Perhaps we can collect and organize > > things as we go forward planning such a workshop. > > > > /js > > > > -- > > Juergen Schoenwaelder International > University Bremen > > P.O. Box 750 561, > > 28725 Bremen, Germany > > > > -- > !! This message is brought to you via the `nmrg' mailing list. > !! Please do not reply to this message to unsubscribe. To > unsubscribe or > adjust > !! your settings, send a mail message to > > !! or look at https://www.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de/mailman/listinfo/nmrg. > > -- > !! This message is brought to you via the `nmrg' mailing list. > !! Please do not reply to this message to unsubscribe. To > unsubscribe or adjust > !! your settings, send a mail message to > > !! or look at https://www.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de/mailman/listinfo/nmrg. > Received: from mx.cbeyond.com (mx.cbeyond.net [66.180.96.58]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.1) with ESMTP id j1LEomxt027220 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 21 Feb 2005 15:50:49 +0100 Received: from [64.238.103.215] (port=1197 helo=telws116) by mx.cbeyond.com with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1D3Etb-0007C1-SD; Mon, 21 Feb 2005 09:50:47 -0500 From: "Alan Clark" To: "Dan Romascanu \(Dan\)" Subject: RE: [nmrg] nmrg workshop on voip management Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 09:50:47 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 In-reply-to: Importance: Normal X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: -1.524 () BAYES_01 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 08:20:59 +0100 Cc: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 14:50:51 -0000 Dan With regard to your suggestion of a VoIP performance management framework - there is a body of work in that has been emerging over the last several years. This is based on the following general ideas:- 1. As problems are often transient and can result from the interaction of a number of different parameters then it makes sense to both measure and do per-call correlation at key points within the network, notably at IP endpoints. This has led to the development of lightweight agents that can be integrated directly into IP endpoints, able to report estimated call quality and supporting diagnostic data. 2. It makes sense to define a single set of VoIP metrics and use this independently of the protocol used for reporting/ retrieval 3. In order to understand some types of problem (e.g. echo) it is desirable to exchange information between two IP endpoints. 4. One model for retrieving data from IP phones and residential gateways is to use a lightweight "push" model. This should ideally be signaling system independent and capable of penetrating firewall routers. 5. By extending RTCP to carry a useful set of VoIP metrics (2) then 3 and 4 can be satisfied (i.e. RTCP XR) 6. We need a MIB that supports retrieval of this set of VoIP metrics (the RTCP XR MIB draft) 7. To support service management it is desirable to also report through the signaling system, to allow call quality metrics to be incorporated in call detail records. There are now published ITU standards for H.323 and Megaco and IETF drafts for SIP and MGCP to support the transmission of the same set of metrics through the signaling system. This model has been adopted by the US Cable Industry as the VoIP performance management architecture for PacketCable 1.5, and hence has been shown to work in at least one environment. Regards Alan -----Original Message----- From: nmrg-bounces@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de [mailto:nmrg-bounces@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de]On Behalf Of Romascanu, Dan (Dan) Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2005 11:28 AM To: j.schoenwaelder@iu-bremen.de Cc: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Subject: RE: [nmrg] nmrg workshop on voip management Juergen, Here are a few issues I encountered in the VoIP management space in the last few years, and which may be items for such a workshop: 1. 'Generic' IP management protocols (SNMP, NETCONF, WebDAV) vs. 'specialized' IP telephony and IP telephony applications configuration protocols (XCCAP, XCON, etc.) 2. Configuration management and provisioning: - centralized (IP PBX, media servers) and distributed devices (gateways and IP phones) configuration - provisioning architectures and protocols in service providers and enterprise (large, small) deployments 3. VoIP Performance management - work on a common performance management framework for VoIP - combined use of IP telephony control protocols (RTCP, SIP) and SNMP - protocols used for VoIP performance monitoring RTCP-XR, RAQMON, NetFlow, etc. - passive vs. active (synthetic sources) 4. Faults Management - ITU Alarm Information model as described in ITU Recommendation M.3100, X.733, X.736 and RFC 3877 5. Topology management extensions for IP telephony - TR 41.1 Link Layer Discovery Protocol for Media Endpoint Devices (LLDP-MED) Regards, Dan > -----Original Message----- > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder [mailto:j.schoenwaelder@iu-bremen.de] > Sent: 18 February, 2005 12:51 PM > To: Romascanu, Dan (Dan) > Cc: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de > Subject: Re: [nmrg] nmrg workshop on voip management > > > On Fri, Feb 18, 2005 at 12:47:13PM +0200, Romascanu, Dan (Dan) wrote: > > > If you are interested I can prepare a list of issues which > I believe > > are of interest in VoIP management. > > I am certainly interest in such a list of issues. Feel free to post > something to this mailing list. Perhaps we can collect and organize > things as we go forward planning such a workshop. > > /js > > -- > Juergen Schoenwaelder International University Bremen > P.O. Box 750 561, > 28725 Bremen, Germany > -- !! This message is brought to you via the `nmrg' mailing list. !! Please do not reply to this message to unsubscribe. To unsubscribe or adjust !! your settings, send a mail message to !! or look at https://www.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de/mailman/listinfo/nmrg. Received: from tierw.net.avaya.com (tierw.net.avaya.com [198.152.13.100]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.1) with ESMTP id j1LCEZxt002608 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 21 Feb 2005 13:14:36 +0100 Received: from tierw.net.avaya.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tierw.net.avaya.com (Switch-3.1.2/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id j1LC4bOX016211 for ; Mon, 21 Feb 2005 07:04:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from IS0004AVEXU1.global.avaya.com (h135-64-105-51.avaya.com [135.64.105.51]) by tierw.net.avaya.com (Switch-3.1.2/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id j1LC4XOX016153 for ; Mon, 21 Feb 2005 07:04:35 -0500 (EST) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6603.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C5180E.DED98ED6" Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 14:14:19 +0200 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: another possible subject for the nmrg workshop on voip management Thread-index: AcUX8+ahp7XMEkcMRueSQGbrEbSe/w== From: "Romascanu, Dan \(Dan\)" To: , "Cullen Jennings" , , , , X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: 0.099 () BAYES_44,HTML_MESSAGE X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 13:18:51 +0100 Cc: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Subject: [nmrg] another possible subject for the nmrg workshop on voip management X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 12:14:39 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5180E.DED98ED6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1255" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Let me stir a little bit more the pot and raise another item that I = believe is worth being discussed in the projected workshop. Why do VoIP = WGs, and especially the SIP-related ones need to define specialized = protocols for each purpose and application rather than looking around = for using existing protocols and languages? Sometimes it looks to me = like SIP tries to re-invent every wheel already turning in the IETF. Do = we really need XCAP and XCON when we have NETCONF and WebDAV?=20 ... yes, I know this may not be a popular view either :-) Regards, Dan ------_=_NextPart_001_01C5180E.DED98ED6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1255" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable another possible subject for the nmrg workshop on voip = management

Let me stir a little bit more = the pot and raise another item that I believe is worth being discussed = in the projected workshop. Why do VoIP WGs, and especially the = SIP-related ones need to define specialized protocols for each purpose = and application rather than looking around for using existing protocols = and languages? Sometimes it looks to me like SIP tries to re-invent = every wheel already turning in the IETF. Do we really need XCAP and XCON = when we have NETCONF and WebDAV?

... yes, I know this may not = be a popular view either :-)

Regards,

Dan

------_=_NextPart_001_01C5180E.DED98ED6-- Received: from tierw.net.avaya.com (tierw.net.avaya.com [198.152.13.100]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.1) with ESMTP id j1KGSIxt006009 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 20 Feb 2005 17:28:19 +0100 Received: from tierw.net.avaya.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tierw.net.avaya.com (Switch-3.1.2/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id j1KGIKOX006427 for ; Sun, 20 Feb 2005 11:18:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from IS0004AVEXU1.global.avaya.com (h135-64-105-51.avaya.com [135.64.105.51]) by tierw.net.avaya.com (Switch-3.1.2/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id j1KGIHOX006399 for ; Sun, 20 Feb 2005 11:18:19 -0500 (EST) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6603.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: RE: [nmrg] nmrg workshop on voip management Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 18:28:04 +0200 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [nmrg] nmrg workshop on voip management Thread-index: AcUVp7WFhXM7klQGTGeCGgYqWG/IiwBva1Jw From: "Romascanu, Dan \(Dan\)" To: X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: -1.524 () BAYES_01 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de id j1KGSIxt006009 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 13:18:51 +0100 Cc: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 16:28:21 -0000 Juergen, Here are a few issues I encountered in the VoIP management space in the last few years, and which may be items for such a workshop: 1. 'Generic' IP management protocols (SNMP, NETCONF, WebDAV) vs. 'specialized' IP telephony and IP telephony applications configuration protocols (XCCAP, XCON, etc.) 2. Configuration management and provisioning: - centralized (IP PBX, media servers) and distributed devices (gateways and IP phones) configuration - provisioning architectures and protocols in service providers and enterprise (large, small) deployments 3. VoIP Performance management - work on a common performance management framework for VoIP - combined use of IP telephony control protocols (RTCP, SIP) and SNMP - protocols used for VoIP performance monitoring RTCP-XR, RAQMON, NetFlow, etc. - passive vs. active (synthetic sources) 4. Faults Management - ITU Alarm Information model as described in ITU Recommendation M.3100, X.733, X.736 and RFC 3877 5. Topology management extensions for IP telephony - TR 41.1 Link Layer Discovery Protocol for Media Endpoint Devices (LLDP-MED) Regards, Dan > -----Original Message----- > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder [mailto:j.schoenwaelder@iu-bremen.de] > Sent: 18 February, 2005 12:51 PM > To: Romascanu, Dan (Dan) > Cc: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de > Subject: Re: [nmrg] nmrg workshop on voip management > > > On Fri, Feb 18, 2005 at 12:47:13PM +0200, Romascanu, Dan (Dan) wrote: > > > If you are interested I can prepare a list of issues which > I believe > > are of interest in VoIP management. > > I am certainly interest in such a list of issues. Feel free to post > something to this mailing list. Perhaps we can collect and organize > things as we go forward planning such a workshop. > > /js > > -- > Juergen Schoenwaelder International University Bremen > P.O. Box 750 561, > 28725 Bremen, Germany > Received: from hermes.iu-bremen.de (hermes.iu-bremen.de [212.201.44.23]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.1) with ESMTP id j1JDRExs027709 for ; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 14:27:14 +0100 Received: from localhost (demetrius.iu-bremen.de [212.201.44.32]) by hermes.iu-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81114E8A3; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 14:27:11 +0100 (CET) Received: from hermes.iu-bremen.de ([212.201.44.23]) by localhost (demetrius [212.201.44.32]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 32116-03; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 14:27:10 +0100 (CET) Received: from james (I91df.i.pppool.de [85.73.145.223]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hermes.iu-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54774E8A2; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 14:27:10 +0100 (CET) Received: from schoenw by james with local (Exim 4.34) id 1D2UdY-000145-Ef; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 14:27:08 +0100 Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 14:27:08 +0100 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: Carmen Guerrero Subject: Re: [nmrg] nmrg workshop on voip management Message-ID: <20050219132708.GA4057@james> Mail-Followup-To: Carmen Guerrero , nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de References: <20050219000231.C26828@atlanta.postech.ac.kr> <20050218181537.3997E39831@smtp02.uc3m.es> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20050218181537.3997E39831@smtp02.uc3m.es> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040907i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new 20030616p5 at demetrius.iu-bremen.de X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: -4.9 () BAYES_00 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Cc: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: j.schoenwaelder@iu-bremen.de List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 13:27:15 -0000 On Fri, Feb 18, 2005 at 07:15:36PM +0100, Carmen Guerrero wrote: > I think this topic is quite interesting. My suggestion is to relate IMS (IP > Multimedia Subsystem) to network management. Now I am involved in IMS, SIP > research and I have a strong research background in network management, so I > am trying to joint this two topics in teaching and researching. What is your definition of IMS (IP Multimedia Subsystem)? How does that differ from VoIP? > If you need more information or collaboration in this topic I would be very > grateful in being involved. > > What kind of workshop are you thinking about? Invite people who do management products in the VoIP space and people who run larger VoIP services to figure out what the management challenges of VoIP are. As usual, we are interested in real technical discussions of the subject. /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder International University Bremen P.O. Box 750 561, 28725 Bremen, Germany Received: from macker.loria.fr (macker.loria.fr [152.81.1.70]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.1) with ESMTP id j1J93qxs027452 for ; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 10:03:52 +0100 Received: from localhost.loria.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13ECD4B2BC; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 10:03:50 +0100 (CET) X-Amavix: Anti-virus check done by ClamAV X-Amavix: Scanned by Amavix Received: from [152.81.8.114] (tatami.loria.fr [152.81.8.114]) by macker.loria.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id F18574B278; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 10:03:48 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <421700F5.30100@loria.fr> Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 10:03:49 +0100 From: Olivier Festor User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: j.schoenwaelder@iu-bremen.de Subject: Re: [nmrg] nmrg workshop on voip management References: <20050218093357.GA2976@james> In-Reply-To: <20050218093357.GA2976@james> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: -4.9 () BAYES_00 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Cc: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 09:03:53 -0000 Interest : YES, YES, YES. People : I'll start to investigate in France. /Olivier Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote: >I am toying with the idea to organize an NMRG workshop focussing >on VoIP management issues. The idea would be to invite people who >are on the forefront of the implementation and deployment of VoIP >technology in order to kick off a discussion what the specific >management issues related to large scale VoIP services are. > >At this point in time, I would like to receive back on the following >two questions: > >a) Is there general interest to have such a workshop? > >b) Do you have any suggestions for people working on VoIP management > issues or deployment issues that should be contacted / invited? > >I willing to spend cycles to organize such an event. But I need your >help to get the right people together and I need strong indications >that there is enough interest to justify time investment. > >/js > > > Received: from sj-iport-5.cisco.com (sj-iport-5.cisco.com [171.68.10.87]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.1) with ESMTP id j1IJSjxs026938 for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 20:28:45 +0100 Received: from sj-core-1.cisco.com (171.71.177.237) by sj-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 18 Feb 2005 11:29:58 -0800 X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-IronPort-AV: i="3.90,99,1107763200"; d="scan'208"; a="162245953:sNHT21705392" Received: from cisco.com (cypher.cisco.com [171.69.11.142]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j1IJSguC018760; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 11:28:42 -0800 (PST) Received: (from kzm@localhost) by cisco.com (8.8.8-Cisco List Logging/8.8.8) id LAA09131; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 11:28:41 -0800 (PST) From: Keith McCloghrie Message-Id: <200502181928.LAA09131@cisco.com> Subject: Re: [nmrg] nmrg workshop on voip management To: j.schoenwaelder@iu-bremen.de Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 11:28:41 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20050218185706.GC2284@james> from "Juergen Schoenwaelder" at Feb 18, 2005 07:57:06 PM X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL5] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: -0.001 () BAYES_44 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Cc: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de, Azita Kia X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 19:28:46 -0000 Juergen/Alex, I forwarded Juergen's original message to a few other folks in Cisco, and Azita Kia (I've cc-ed her on this message) who has done quite a bit of work on VoIP management, is interested in participating in the workshop. Keith. > > > On Fri, Feb 18, 2005 at 10:29:04AM -0800, Alexander Clemm wrote: > > > I have worked myself on VoIP management and large scale deployments thereof > > for many years, although not most recently. Most of this was in the > > service provider and managed service provider space. I would be willing to > > share some of the challenges and issues that I have seen, along with > > approaches that can be used to address them. I could also try and see if I > > could find someone in Cisco to specifically address the networking and > > control side, if there is an interest. > > Great. Let me know who from Cisco can give us insight into the problem > domain and perhaps explain in one or two paragraphs the specifics. I > will collect info and then we can see how to organize the logistics. > > /js > > -- > Juergen Schoenwaelder International University Bremen > P.O. Box 750 561, 28725 Bremen, Germany > -- > !! This message is brought to you via the `nmrg' mailing list. > !! Please do not reply to this message to unsubscribe. To unsubscribe or adjust > !! your settings, send a mail message to > !! or look at https://www.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de/mailman/listinfo/nmrg. > Received: from hermes.iu-bremen.de (hermes.iu-bremen.de [212.201.44.23]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.1) with ESMTP id j1IIvCxs024307 for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 19:57:12 +0100 Received: from localhost (demetrius.iu-bremen.de [212.201.44.32]) by hermes.iu-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F574E77D; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 19:57:09 +0100 (CET) Received: from hermes.iu-bremen.de ([212.201.44.23]) by localhost (demetrius [212.201.44.32]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18779-08; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 19:57:08 +0100 (CET) Received: from james (I895e.i.pppool.de [85.73.137.94]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hermes.iu-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CA94D45C; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 19:57:08 +0100 (CET) Received: from schoenw by james with local (Exim 4.34) id 1D2DJK-0000cr-H7; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 19:57:06 +0100 Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 19:57:06 +0100 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: Alexander Clemm Subject: Re: [nmrg] nmrg workshop on voip management Message-ID: <20050218185706.GC2284@james> Mail-Followup-To: Alexander Clemm , nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de References: <20050218093357.GA2976@james> <4.3.2.7.2.20050218102105.02ea6d68@mira-sjc5-8.cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20050218102105.02ea6d68@mira-sjc5-8.cisco.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040907i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new 20030616p5 at demetrius.iu-bremen.de X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: -4.9 () BAYES_00 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Cc: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: j.schoenwaelder@iu-bremen.de List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 18:57:13 -0000 On Fri, Feb 18, 2005 at 10:29:04AM -0800, Alexander Clemm wrote: > I have worked myself on VoIP management and large scale deployments thereof > for many years, although not most recently. Most of this was in the > service provider and managed service provider space. I would be willing to > share some of the challenges and issues that I have seen, along with > approaches that can be used to address them. I could also try and see if I > could find someone in Cisco to specifically address the networking and > control side, if there is an interest. Great. Let me know who from Cisco can give us insight into the problem domain and perhaps explain in one or two paragraphs the specifics. I will collect info and then we can see how to organize the logistics. /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder International University Bremen P.O. Box 750 561, 28725 Bremen, Germany Received: from hermes.iu-bremen.de (hermes.iu-bremen.de [212.201.44.23]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.1) with ESMTP id j1IIr2xs023958 for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 19:53:02 +0100 Received: from localhost (demetrius.iu-bremen.de [212.201.44.32]) by hermes.iu-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EF8DD45C; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 19:52:59 +0100 (CET) Received: from hermes.iu-bremen.de ([212.201.44.23]) by localhost (demetrius [212.201.44.32]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 18595-08; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 19:52:58 +0100 (CET) Received: from james (I895e.i.pppool.de [85.73.137.94]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hermes.iu-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A9FC9C32; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 19:52:58 +0100 (CET) Received: from schoenw by james with local (Exim 4.34) id 1D2DFI-0000cR-CB; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 19:52:56 +0100 Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 19:52:56 +0100 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: "Prof. J. Won-Ki Hong" Subject: Re: [nmrg] nmrg workshop on voip management Message-ID: <20050218185256.GA2284@james> Mail-Followup-To: "Prof. J. Won-Ki Hong" , nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de References: <20050218093357.GA2976@james> <20050219000231.C26828@atlanta.postech.ac.kr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20050219000231.C26828@atlanta.postech.ac.kr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040907i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new 20030616p5 at demetrius.iu-bremen.de X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: -4.9 () BAYES_00 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Cc: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: j.schoenwaelder@iu-bremen.de List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 18:53:03 -0000 On Sat, Feb 19, 2005 at 12:02:31AM +0900, Prof. J. Won-Ki Hong wrote: > I am interested in such a workshop but I am afraid I can't suggest people > at this point. When and where are you thinking of holding this workshop? I first want to see whether there is interest and if I can find the right people. Once I know who the main contributors will be, I will try to arrange a meeting place. /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder International University Bremen P.O. Box 750 561, 28725 Bremen, Germany Received: from sj-iport-3.cisco.com (sj-iport-3-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.72]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.1) with ESMTP id j1IITXxs021938 for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 19:29:34 +0100 Received: from sj-core-1.cisco.com (171.71.177.237) by sj-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 18 Feb 2005 11:42:41 +0000 X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-IronPort-AV: i="3.90,99,1107734400"; d="scan'208"; a="226577367:sNHT2773166612" Received: from alex-w2k01.cisco.com ([128.107.169.221]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j1IIT5uD007550; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 10:29:06 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20050218102105.02ea6d68@mira-sjc5-8.cisco.com> X-Sender: alex@mira-sjc5-8.cisco.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 10:29:04 -0800 To: j.schoenwaelder@iu-bremen.de From: Alexander Clemm Subject: Re: [nmrg] nmrg workshop on voip management In-Reply-To: <20050218093357.GA2976@james> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-PMX-Version: 4.7.0.111621 X-from-outside-Cisco: [128.107.169.221] X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: -0.001 () BAYES_40 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 14:04:50 +0100 Cc: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 18:29:35 -0000 Hello Juergen, I think such a workshop would be very interesting and topical. I have worked myself on VoIP management and large scale deployments thereof for many years, although not most recently. Most of this was in the service provider and managed service provider space. I would be willing to share some of the challenges and issues that I have seen, along with approaches that can be used to address them. I could also try and see if I could find someone in Cisco to specifically address the networking and control side, if there is an interest. --- Alex At 10:33 AM 2/18/2005 +0100, Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote: >I am toying with the idea to organize an NMRG workshop focussing >on VoIP management issues. The idea would be to invite people who >are on the forefront of the implementation and deployment of VoIP >technology in order to kick off a discussion what the specific >management issues related to large scale VoIP services are. > >At this point in time, I would like to receive back on the following >two questions: > >a) Is there general interest to have such a workshop? > >b) Do you have any suggestions for people working on VoIP management > issues or deployment issues that should be contacted / invited? > >I willing to spend cycles to organize such an event. But I need your >help to get the right people together and I need strong indications >that there is enough interest to justify time investment. > >/js > >-- >Juergen Schoenwaelder International University Bremen > P.O. Box 750 561, 28725 Bremen, Germany >-- >!! This message is brought to you via the `nmrg' mailing list. >!! Please do not reply to this message to unsubscribe. To unsubscribe or >adjust >!! your settings, send a mail message to >!! or look at https://www.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de/mailman/listinfo/nmrg. Received: from smtp02.uc3m.es (smtp02.uc3m.es [163.117.136.122]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.1) with ESMTP id j1IIFbxt020724 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL) for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 19:15:38 +0100 Received: from smtp02.uc3m.es (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.uc3m.es (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67AAE39834 for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 19:15:37 +0100 (CET) Received: from celesta (celesta.it.uc3m.es [163.117.139.59]) by smtp02.uc3m.es (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3997E39831 for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 19:15:37 +0100 (CET) From: "Carmen Guerrero" To: Subject: RE: [nmrg] nmrg workshop on voip management Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 19:15:36 +0100 Organization: UC3M MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Thread-Index: AcUVy3qj74WS8y2AQ6G8hhx8sktqdwAGHtBQ In-Reply-To: <20050219000231.C26828@atlanta.postech.ac.kr> Message-Id: <20050218181537.3997E39831@smtp02.uc3m.es> X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de id j1IIFbxt020724 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 14:05:16 +0100 X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: carmen.guerrero@uc3m.es List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 18:15:39 -0000 Hello, I think this topic is quite interesting. My suggestion is to relate IMS (IP Multimedia Subsystem) to network management. Now I am involved in IMS, SIP research and I have a strong research background in network management, so I am trying to joint this two topics in teaching and researching. If you need more information or collaboration in this topic I would be very grateful in being involved. What kind of workshop are you thinking about? Kind Regards Carmen Guerrero   Dra. Carmen Guerrero López Univ. Carlos III of Madrid Avda. de la Universidad, 30 28911 Leganes (Madrid) ESPAÑA Tel: +34 91 6248745 Fax: +34 91 6248749 Email: carmen.guerrero@uc3m.es Web: www.it.uc3m.es/carmen -----Mensaje original----- De: nmrg-bounces@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de [mailto:nmrg-bounces@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de] En nombre de Prof. J. Won-Ki Hong Enviado el: viernes, 18 de febrero de 2005 16:03 Para: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Asunto: Re: [nmrg] nmrg workshop on voip management Juergen, I am interested in such a workshop but I am afraid I can't suggest people at this point. When and where are you thinking of holding this workshop? Cheers! James On Fri, Feb 18, 2005 at 10:33:57AM +0100, Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote: > I am toying with the idea to organize an NMRG workshop focussing > on VoIP management issues. The idea would be to invite people who > are on the forefront of the implementation and deployment of VoIP > technology in order to kick off a discussion what the specific > management issues related to large scale VoIP services are. > > At this point in time, I would like to receive back on the following > two questions: > > a) Is there general interest to have such a workshop? > > b) Do you have any suggestions for people working on VoIP management > issues or deployment issues that should be contacted / invited? > > I willing to spend cycles to organize such an event. But I need your > help to get the right people together and I need strong indications > that there is enough interest to justify time investment. > > /js > > -- > Juergen Schoenwaelder International University Bremen > P.O. Box 750 561, 28725 Bremen, Germany > -- > !! This message is brought to you via the `nmrg' mailing list. > !! Please do not reply to this message to unsubscribe. To unsubscribe or adjust > !! your settings, send a mail message to > !! or look at https://www.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de/mailman/listinfo/nmrg. -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- James Won-Ki Hong, PhD, Associate Professor Dept. of Computer Science & Engineering, POSTECH, Pohang Korea 790-784 Currently visiting Dept. of ECE, U. of Toronto, Canada (Sep/2004-Aug/2005) Tel: +1-416-222-3558 (H), +1-416-946-0545 (O), Mobile: +1-647-284-0349 Email: jwkhong@postech.ac.kr http://dpnm.postech.ac.kr/~jwkhong/ IEEE ComSoc CNOM Vice Chair: http://www.comsoc.org/~cnomwww/ IEEE ComSoc Director of Online Content: http://www.comsoc.org/socstr/org/bog/officers/2004/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- !! This message is brought to you via the `nmrg' mailing list. !! Please do not reply to this message to unsubscribe. To unsubscribe or adjust !! your settings, send a mail message to !! or look at https://www.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de/mailman/listinfo/nmrg. Received: from sf1.postech.ac.kr (sf1.postech.ac.kr [141.223.1.112]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.1) with ESMTP id j1IF2sxs025590 for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 16:02:55 +0100 Received: from external ([141.223.82.74]) by sf1.postech.ac.kr (1.0) id j1IF2a700776; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 00:02:36 +0900 X-SMF-UNIQC4B8122DBE538FA89F3614F123840DED: j1IF2a700776 Received: (from jwkhong@localhost) by atlanta.postech.ac.kr (v3smtp 8.11.6.9/8.11.6) id j1IF2Va27020 for nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 00:02:31 +0900 (KST) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 00:02:31 +0900 From: "Prof. J. Won-Ki Hong" To: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Subject: Re: [nmrg] nmrg workshop on voip management Message-ID: <20050219000231.C26828@atlanta.postech.ac.kr> References: <20050218093357.GA2976@james> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: <20050218093357.GA2976@james>; from j.schoenwaelder@iu-bremen.de on Fri, Feb 18, 2005 at 10:33:57AM +0100 X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: -0.001 () BAYES_44 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 15:02:57 -0000 Juergen, I am interested in such a workshop but I am afraid I can't suggest people at this point. When and where are you thinking of holding this workshop? Cheers! James On Fri, Feb 18, 2005 at 10:33:57AM +0100, Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote: > I am toying with the idea to organize an NMRG workshop focussing > on VoIP management issues. The idea would be to invite people who > are on the forefront of the implementation and deployment of VoIP > technology in order to kick off a discussion what the specific > management issues related to large scale VoIP services are. > > At this point in time, I would like to receive back on the following > two questions: > > a) Is there general interest to have such a workshop? > > b) Do you have any suggestions for people working on VoIP management > issues or deployment issues that should be contacted / invited? > > I willing to spend cycles to organize such an event. But I need your > help to get the right people together and I need strong indications > that there is enough interest to justify time investment. > > /js > > -- > Juergen Schoenwaelder International University Bremen > P.O. Box 750 561, 28725 Bremen, Germany > -- > !! This message is brought to you via the `nmrg' mailing list. > !! Please do not reply to this message to unsubscribe. To unsubscribe or adjust > !! your settings, send a mail message to > !! or look at https://www.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de/mailman/listinfo/nmrg. -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- James Won-Ki Hong, PhD, Associate Professor Dept. of Computer Science & Engineering, POSTECH, Pohang Korea 790-784 Currently visiting Dept. of ECE, U. of Toronto, Canada (Sep/2004-Aug/2005) Tel: +1-416-222-3558 (H), +1-416-946-0545 (O), Mobile: +1-647-284-0349 Email: jwkhong@postech.ac.kr http://dpnm.postech.ac.kr/~jwkhong/ IEEE ComSoc CNOM Vice Chair: http://www.comsoc.org/~cnomwww/ IEEE ComSoc Director of Online Content: http://www.comsoc.org/socstr/org/bog/officers/2004/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Received: from localhost.localdomain (host114-228.pool82187.interbusiness.it [82.187.228.114]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.1) with ESMTP id j1IClxxt004715 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 13:48:00 +0100 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by localhost.localdomain (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j1IClwrx004849; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 13:47:58 +0100 Message-ID: <4215E3FE.3090808@ntop.org> Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 13:47:58 +0100 From: Luca Deri Organization: ntop.org User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20041217 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: j.schoenwaelder@iu-bremen.de Subject: Re: [nmrg] nmrg workshop on voip management References: <20050218093357.GA2976@james> In-Reply-To: <20050218093357.GA2976@james> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.90.0.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: -4.9 () BAYES_00 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 14:05:16 +0100 Cc: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 12:48:01 -0000 Juergen, I believe that your proposal makes sense, a lot of sense. I'm a VoIP user not a field expert, so I'm interested in its monitoring more than on the technology per-se. What I can tell you is that I have received many emails from ntop users that are also willing to see from ntop some figures about VoIP. Currently Cisco Skinny+RTP (that's the mostly used standard VoIP solution on the market) is supported (jitter + packet loss) and I'm investigating what can be done with SIP. I have also improved my NetFlow v9 probe (http://www.ntop.org/nProbe.html) with some additional IDs for sending via NFv9 this information. Other people asked me to add smarted decoders so that it is also possible to detect the phone call quality (as well export this info into NFv9), but in order to do this I need to do some more work. Cheers, Luca Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote: >I am toying with the idea to organize an NMRG workshop focussing >on VoIP management issues. The idea would be to invite people who >are on the forefront of the implementation and deployment of VoIP >technology in order to kick off a discussion what the specific >management issues related to large scale VoIP services are. > >At this point in time, I would like to receive back on the following >two questions: > >a) Is there general interest to have such a workshop? > >b) Do you have any suggestions for people working on VoIP management > issues or deployment issues that should be contacted / invited? > >I willing to spend cycles to organize such an event. But I need your >help to get the right people together and I need strong indications >that there is enough interest to justify time investment. > >/js > > > -- Luca Deri http://luca.ntop.org/ Hacker: someone who loves to program and enjoys being clever about it - Richard Stallman Received: from smtp1.iitb.ac.in (smtp1.iitb.ac.in [203.199.81.149]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.1) with SMTP id j1IBf0xs027245 for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 12:41:02 +0100 Received: (qmail 32177 invoked from network); 18 Feb 2005 17:04:14 +0530 Received: from unknown (HELO ldns2.iitb.ac.in) (10.200.12.2) by smtp1.iitb.ac.in with SMTP; 18 Feb 2005 17:04:14 +0530 Received: (qmail 17334 invoked by uid 780); 18 Feb 2005 11:34:14 -0000 Received: from 10.105.1.1 by ldns2 (envelope-from , uid 502) with qmail-scanner-1.23 (spamassassin: 2.64. Clear:RC:1(10.105.1.1):. Processed in 0.020168 secs); 18 Feb 2005 11:34:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cse.iitb.ac.in) (10.105.1.1) by ldns2.iitb.ac.in with SMTP; 18 Feb 2005 11:34:14 -0000 Received: (qmail 29945 invoked by uid 509); 18 Feb 2005 11:40:23 -0000 Received: from sudeepg@cse.iitb.ac.in by jeeves.cse.iitb.ac.in by uid 507 with qmail-scanner-1.22-st-qms (clamdscan: 0.73. spamassassin: 2.63. Clear:RC:1(10.105.1.11):. Processed in 0.623359 secs); 18 Feb 2005 11:40:23 -0000 X-Antivirus-cse.iitb.ac.in-Mail-From: sudeepg@cse.iitb.ac.in via jeeves.cse.iitb.ac.in X-Antivirus-cse.iitb.ac.in: 1.22-st-qms (Clear:RC:1(10.105.1.11):. Processed in 0.623359 secs Process 29940) Received: from mars.cse.iitb.ac.in (10.105.1.11) by cse.iitb.ac.in with SMTP; 18 Feb 2005 11:40:22 -0000 Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 17:04:11 +0530 (IST) From: Sudeep Goyal To: Aiko Pras Subject: Re: [nmrg] nmrg workshop on voip management In-Reply-To: <4215CB56.9000507@utwente.nl> Message-ID: References: <20050218093357.GA2976@james> <4215CB56.9000507@utwente.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: -4.9 () BAYES_00 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 14:05:16 +0100 Cc: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 11:41:04 -0000 I am also definitely interested in such a workshop. Though time is pretty constraint as of now. On Fri, 18 Feb 2005, Aiko Pras wrote: > > > Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote: >> I am toying with the idea to organize an NMRG workshop focussing >> on VoIP management issues. The idea would be to invite people who >> are on the forefront of the implementation and deployment of VoIP >> technology in order to kick off a discussion what the specific >> management issues related to large scale VoIP services are. >> >> At this point in time, I would like to receive back on the following >> two questions: >> >> a) Is there general interest to have such a workshop? > Yes >> >> b) Do you have any suggestions for people working on VoIP management >> issues or deployment issues that should be contacted / invited? > Not realy (I have a student working at a small VoIP company; I don't except > the owner of that company would be interested to join our meeting). > > Bye > > Aiko > > -- Received: from smtp2.netlab.nec.de (smtp0.netlab.nec.de [195.37.70.40]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.1) with ESMTP id j1IB5oxs022371 for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 12:05:51 +0100 Received: from europa.office (europa.office [10.1.1.2]) by smtp2.netlab.nec.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id D18C0DC81; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 12:12:12 +0100 (CET) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Subject: RE: [nmrg] nmrg workshop on voip management Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 12:05:47 +0100 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [nmrg] nmrg workshop on voip management Thread-Index: AcUVnUS4Zxkx90mgRNGCOW6Tu3K7cAADG2KQ From: "Marcus Brunner" To: , X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: -0.908 () BAYES_10 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de id j1IB5oxs022371 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 14:04:50 +0100 Cc: X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 11:05:51 -0000 Juergen, I think it is a good idea. I will try to some names together in that area. Marcus --------------------------------------------------- Dr. Marcus Brunner Network Laboratories NEC Europe Ltd. > -----Original Message----- > From: nmrg-bounces@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de > [mailto:nmrg-bounces@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de] On Behalf Of Juergen > Schoenwaelder > Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 10:34 AM > To: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de > Subject: [nmrg] nmrg workshop on voip management > > I am toying with the idea to organize an NMRG workshop > focussing on VoIP management issues. The idea would be to > invite people who are on the forefront of the implementation > and deployment of VoIP technology in order to kick off a > discussion what the specific management issues related to > large scale VoIP services are. > > At this point in time, I would like to receive back on the > following two questions: > > a) Is there general interest to have such a workshop? > > b) Do you have any suggestions for people working on VoIP management > issues or deployment issues that should be contacted / invited? > > I willing to spend cycles to organize such an event. But I > need your help to get the right people together and I need > strong indications that there is enough interest to justify > time investment. > > /js > > -- > Juergen Schoenwaelder International University Bremen > P.O. Box 750 561, > 28725 Bremen, Germany > -- > !! This message is brought to you via the `nmrg' mailing list. > !! Please do not reply to this message to unsubscribe. To > unsubscribe or adjust !! your settings, send a mail message > to !! or look at > https://www.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de/mailman/listinfo/nmrg. > Received: from netlx050.vf.utwente.nl (netlx050.vf.utwente.nl [192.87.17.19]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.1) with ESMTP id j1IB2Wxs021784 for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 12:02:32 +0100 Received: from [192.168.255.103] (adsl219222.adsl.utwente.nl [130.89.225.67]) by netlx050.vf.utwente.nl (8.11.7/HKD) with ESMTP id j1IB2Uf03881 for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 12:02:30 +0100 Message-ID: <4215CB56.9000507@utwente.nl> Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 12:02:46 +0100 From: Aiko Pras User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Subject: Re: [nmrg] nmrg workshop on voip management References: <20050218093357.GA2976@james> In-Reply-To: <20050218093357.GA2976@james> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UTwente-MailScanner-Information: Scanned by MailScanner. Contact helpdesk@ITBE.utwente.nl for more information. X-UTwente-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: a.pras@utwente.nl X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: -1.524 () BAYES_01 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 11:02:33 -0000 Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote: > I am toying with the idea to organize an NMRG workshop focussing > on VoIP management issues. The idea would be to invite people who > are on the forefront of the implementation and deployment of VoIP > technology in order to kick off a discussion what the specific > management issues related to large scale VoIP services are. > > At this point in time, I would like to receive back on the following > two questions: > > a) Is there general interest to have such a workshop? Yes > > b) Do you have any suggestions for people working on VoIP management > issues or deployment issues that should be contacted / invited? Not realy (I have a student working at a small VoIP company; I don't except the owner of that company would be interested to join our meeting). Bye Aiko Received: from hermes.iu-bremen.de (hermes.iu-bremen.de [212.201.44.23]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.1) with ESMTP id j1IAooxs020004 for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 11:50:50 +0100 Received: from localhost (demetrius.iu-bremen.de [212.201.44.32]) by hermes.iu-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40A32D8CA; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 11:50:47 +0100 (CET) Received: from hermes.iu-bremen.de ([212.201.44.23]) by localhost (demetrius [212.201.44.32]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 19915-04; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 11:50:46 +0100 (CET) Received: from james (unknown [10.50.242.227]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hermes.iu-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FE9FC267; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 11:50:46 +0100 (CET) Received: from schoenw by james with local (Exim 4.34) id 1D25ig-0000s0-9d; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 11:50:46 +0100 Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 11:50:46 +0100 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: "Romascanu, Dan (Dan)" Subject: Re: [nmrg] nmrg workshop on voip management Message-ID: <20050218105046.GB3311@james> Mail-Followup-To: "Romascanu, Dan (Dan)" , nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040907i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new 20030616p5 at demetrius.iu-bremen.de X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: -4.9 () BAYES_00 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Cc: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: j.schoenwaelder@iu-bremen.de List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 10:50:51 -0000 On Fri, Feb 18, 2005 at 12:47:13PM +0200, Romascanu, Dan (Dan) wrote: > If you are interested I can prepare a list of issues which I believe > are of interest in VoIP management. I am certainly interest in such a list of issues. Feel free to post something to this mailing list. Perhaps we can collect and organize things as we go forward planning such a workshop. /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder International University Bremen P.O. Box 750 561, 28725 Bremen, Germany Received: from tiere.net.avaya.com (tiere.net.avaya.com [198.152.12.100]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.1) with ESMTP id j1IAlLxt019492 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 11:47:22 +0100 Received: from tiere.net.avaya.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tiere.net.avaya.com (Switch-3.1.2/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id j1IAjBjV015186 for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 05:45:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from IS0004AVEXU1.global.avaya.com (h135-64-105-51.avaya.com [135.64.105.51]) by tiere.net.avaya.com (Switch-3.1.2/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id j1IAj9jV015110 for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 05:45:10 -0500 (EST) content-class: urn:content-classes:message Subject: RE: [nmrg] nmrg workshop on voip management MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6603.0 Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 12:47:13 +0200 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [nmrg] nmrg workshop on voip management Thread-index: AcUVnQt65zjyWBARQzC8CP90egqNKwACWtkg From: "Romascanu, Dan \(Dan\)" To: , X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: -0.904 () BAYES_30 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de id j1IAlLxt019492 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 14:05:16 +0100 Cc: X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 10:47:23 -0000 Juergen, a) I would be very interested in such a workshop - it's exactly in the focus of what I am doing nowadays. b) I believe that distributing this query to the lists of the WG involved in VoIP would get you a number of answers from the persons involved in VoIP management and deployment. - I would try avt, mmusic, sip, sipping, simple, ecrit If you are interested I can prepare a list of issues which I believe are of interest in VoIP management. Regards, Dan > -----Original Message----- > From: nmrg-bounces@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de > [mailto:nmrg-bounces@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de]On Behalf Of Juergen > Schoenwaelder > Sent: 18 February, 2005 11:34 AM > To: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de > Subject: [nmrg] nmrg workshop on voip management > > > I am toying with the idea to organize an NMRG workshop focussing > on VoIP management issues. The idea would be to invite people who > are on the forefront of the implementation and deployment of VoIP > technology in order to kick off a discussion what the specific > management issues related to large scale VoIP services are. > > At this point in time, I would like to receive back on the following > two questions: > > a) Is there general interest to have such a workshop? > > b) Do you have any suggestions for people working on VoIP management > issues or deployment issues that should be contacted / invited? > > I willing to spend cycles to organize such an event. But I need your > help to get the right people together and I need strong indications > that there is enough interest to justify time investment. > > /js > > -- > Juergen Schoenwaelder International University Bremen > P.O. Box 750 561, > 28725 Bremen, Germany > -- > !! This message is brought to you via the `nmrg' mailing list. > !! Please do not reply to this message to unsubscribe. To > unsubscribe or adjust > !! your settings, send a mail message to > > !! or look at https://www.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de/mailman/listinfo/nmrg. > Received: from hermes.iu-bremen.de (hermes.iu-bremen.de [212.201.44.23]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.1) with ESMTP id j1I9Y3xs009796 for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 10:34:04 +0100 Received: from localhost (demetrius.iu-bremen.de [212.201.44.32]) by hermes.iu-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39E4FDEBE for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 10:34:00 +0100 (CET) Received: from hermes.iu-bremen.de ([212.201.44.23]) by localhost (demetrius [212.201.44.32]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 15131-09; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 10:33:59 +0100 (CET) Received: from james (unknown [10.50.242.227]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hermes.iu-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84C19DEC0; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 10:33:58 +0100 (CET) Received: from schoenw by james with local (Exim 4.34) id 1D24WM-0000mY-4X; Fri, 18 Feb 2005 10:33:58 +0100 Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 10:33:57 +0100 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Message-ID: <20050218093357.GA2976@james> Mail-Followup-To: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040907i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new 20030616p5 at demetrius.iu-bremen.de X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: -4.9 () BAYES_00 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Subject: [nmrg] nmrg workshop on voip management X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: j.schoenwaelder@iu-bremen.de List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 09:34:05 -0000 I am toying with the idea to organize an NMRG workshop focussing on VoIP management issues. The idea would be to invite people who are on the forefront of the implementation and deployment of VoIP technology in order to kick off a discussion what the specific management issues related to large scale VoIP services are. At this point in time, I would like to receive back on the following two questions: a) Is there general interest to have such a workshop? b) Do you have any suggestions for people working on VoIP management issues or deployment issues that should be contacted / invited? I willing to spend cycles to organize such an event. But I need your help to get the right people together and I need strong indications that there is enough interest to justify time investment. /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder International University Bremen P.O. Box 750 561, 28725 Bremen, Germany Received: from hermes.iu-bremen.de (hermes.iu-bremen.de [212.201.44.23]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.1) with ESMTP id j1G7Tsxs006471 for ; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 08:29:54 +0100 Received: from localhost (demetrius.iu-bremen.de [212.201.44.32]) by hermes.iu-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64DBC30EB; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 08:29:51 +0100 (CET) Received: from hermes.iu-bremen.de ([212.201.44.23]) by localhost (demetrius [212.201.44.32]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 20236-06; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 08:29:50 +0100 (CET) Received: from james (I8138.i.pppool.de [85.73.129.56]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hermes.iu-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55472301D; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 08:29:50 +0100 (CET) Received: from schoenw by james with local (Exim 4.34) id 1D1Jd6-0000sy-LN; Wed, 16 Feb 2005 08:29:48 +0100 Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 08:29:48 +0100 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: Michael Kirkham Message-ID: <20050216072948.GC2298@james> Mail-Followup-To: Michael Kirkham , ietfmibs@ops.ietf.org, nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040907i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new 20030616p5 at demetrius.iu-bremen.de X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: -4.9 () BAYES_00 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Cc: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de, ietfmibs@ops.ietf.org Subject: [nmrg] Re: NMRG-SMING-SNMP-MAPPING (RFC 3781) errata X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: j.schoenwaelder@iu-bremen.de List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 07:29:55 -0000 On Sun, Feb 13, 2005 at 03:00:49AM -0800, Michael Kirkham wrote: > While not technically a MIB module and possibly of no interest to anyone > given the SMIng working group (and I'm pretty sure the mailing list) shut > down, unless it restarts some day, this is probably the most appropriate > place to mention this too, short of the snmpv3 list. (I'll forward this > and the other two MPLS MIB errata emails to the RFC editor as well.) > > There are ASN.1 syntax errors on all but one of the type definitions > defined in NMRG-SMING-SNMP-MAPPING (missing "::=" operator): [...] Thanks for catching these. I agree to post these erratas for RFC 3781. /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder International University Bremen P.O. Box 750 561, 28725 Bremen, Germany Received: from hermes.iu-bremen.de (hermes.iu-bremen.de [212.201.44.23]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.1) with ESMTP id j12HZLg9015747 for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2005 18:35:22 +0100 Received: from localhost (demetrius.iu-bremen.de [212.201.44.32]) by hermes.iu-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id B36EBE466; Wed, 2 Feb 2005 18:35:18 +0100 (CET) Received: from hermes.iu-bremen.de ([212.201.44.23]) by localhost (demetrius [212.201.44.32]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26410-10; Wed, 2 Feb 2005 18:35:17 +0100 (CET) Received: from james (unknown [10.50.242.227]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hermes.iu-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3C6BDEC0; Wed, 2 Feb 2005 18:35:17 +0100 (CET) Received: from schoenw by james with local (Exim 4.34) id 1CwOPO-0000aP-BW; Wed, 02 Feb 2005 18:35:18 +0100 Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 18:35:18 +0100 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: Aiko Pras Subject: Re: [nmrg] Role of the IRTF Message-ID: <20050202173518.GA2233@james> Mail-Followup-To: Aiko Pras , nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de References: <20050129024502.GA7711@james> <4200DC4C.3000705@cs.utwente.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4200DC4C.3000705@cs.utwente.nl> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6+20040907i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new 20030616p5 at demetrius.iu-bremen.de X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: -4.9 () BAYES_00 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Cc: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: j.schoenwaelder@iu-bremen.de List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 17:35:23 -0000 On Wed, Feb 02, 2005 at 02:57:32PM +0100, Aiko Pras wrote: > >The IAB's discussion on the future of the IRTF have led to a draft > >which I think is quite interesting to read. > > > >http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-iab-irtf-00.txt > > I've read it, but what was the interesting part ;-) The interesting part was that you read it. /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder International University Bremen P.O. Box 750 561, 28725 Bremen, Germany Received: from denhaag.ewi.utwente.nl (denhaag.ewi.utwente.nl [130.89.10.11]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.1) with ESMTP id j12DvXg9004124 for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2005 14:57:33 +0100 Received: from [130.89.12.39] (utip250.ewi.utwente.nl [130.89.12.39]) by denhaag.ewi.utwente.nl (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j12DvVew010932; Wed, 2 Feb 2005 14:57:31 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <4200DC4C.3000705@cs.utwente.nl> Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 14:57:32 +0100 From: Aiko Pras User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: j.schoenwaelder@iu-bremen.de Subject: Re: [nmrg] Role of the IRTF References: <20050129024502.GA7711@james> In-Reply-To: <20050129024502.GA7711@james> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -4.9 () BAYES_00 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.44 X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: -4.9 () BAYES_00 Cc: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2005 13:57:34 -0000 Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote: > Hi! > > The IAB's discussion on the future of the IRTF have led to a draft > which I think is quite interesting to read. > > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-iab-irtf-00.txt I've read it, but what was the interesting part ;-) Aiko