Received: from boskop.local (Ia18a.i.pppool.de [85.73.161.138]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.1) with ESMTP id j2SKCQrW021334 for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 22:12:26 +0200 Received: by boskop.local (Postfix, from userid 501) id 5D3F820908C; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 22:12:22 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 22:12:22 +0200 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: Olivier Festor Subject: Re: [nmrg] voip management meeting Message-ID: <20050328201222.GA16812@boskop.local> Mail-Followup-To: Olivier Festor , nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de References: <20050327192340.GA25611@boskop.local> <4248345D.3020700@loria.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4248345D.3020700@loria.fr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.8i X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: -1.524 () BAYES_01 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Cc: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: j.schoenwaelder@iu-bremen.de List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 20:12:27 -0000 On Mon, Mar 28, 2005 at 06:44:13PM +0200, Olivier Festor wrote: > Concerning hotel reservations, there is absolutely no problem on july 30 > August 1st. If I know the number of participants and the > arrival+departure dates, INRIA can make the reservation for the > participants. Usually hotel rooms are between 45 - 65 Euros / night in > Nancy. I'll provide links as well on the web page next week. I guess it will be simpler to have the address and phone number of some suitable hotels so that people can book themself. This gets you out of the loop for any late changes. /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder International University Bremen P.O. Box 750 561, 28725 Bremen, Germany Received: from macker.loria.fr (macker.loria.fr [152.81.1.70]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.1) with ESMTP id j2SGiKrW013547 for ; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 18:44:21 +0200 Received: from localhost.loria.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with ESMTP id 304C04B7DA; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 18:44:16 +0200 (CEST) X-Amavix: Anti-virus check done by ClamAV X-Amavix: Scanned by Amavix Received: from [152.81.8.114] (tatami.loria.fr [152.81.8.114]) by macker.loria.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 974A44B7B7; Mon, 28 Mar 2005 18:44:15 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4248345D.3020700@loria.fr> Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 18:44:13 +0200 From: Olivier Festor User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.2) Gecko/20040804 Netscape/7.2 (ax) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: j.schoenwaelder@iu-bremen.de Subject: Re: [nmrg] voip management meeting References: <20050327192340.GA25611@boskop.local> In-Reply-To: <20050327192340.GA25611@boskop.local> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------090509020405080804080705" X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: 0.219 () HTML_MESSAGE,HTML_TITLE_EMPTY X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Cc: "Romascanu, Dan \(Dan\)" , nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 16:44:22 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------090509020405080804080705 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dan & All, If you arrive from abroad, you will land in Roissy - Charle De Gaulle Airport in Paris. From there you can take a suburb train (RER-B) that takes you to "Gare du Nord" Train station (journey ~35 minutes). From "Gare du Nord" you have to go to the "Gare de l'Est" train station. This takes 3 minutes by feet, 10 minutes by metro. Gare de l'Est is the train station which deserves all trains to the east of France. From there, just take a train to Nancy (2h40 minutes). I'll provide you with maps and other meeting details on Juergens Web page in 7 days from now (I will travel again next week). If you land in Orly which is unusual except if you come from soemwhere else in France, things are a bit more complicated (i.e. you have to cross Paris since Orly is in the south and Gare de L'est in the North/Est). I'll put the metro data in the web for this. Concerning hotel reservations, there is absolutely no problem on july 30 August 1st. If I know the number of participants and the arrival+departure dates, INRIA can make the reservation for the participants. Usually hotel rooms are between 45 - 65 Euros / night in Nancy. I'll provide links as well on the web page next week. /Olivier Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote: >On Sun, Mar 27, 2005 at 11:30:23AM +0200, Romascanu, Dan (Dan) wrote: > > > >>I plan to attend. Will there be hotel arrangements, or at least >>recommendations for Nancy? Also, some directions about how to get >>there (what train lines, connections form the two principal >>airports in Paris, etc.) would be welcome. >> >> > >I am sure Olivier will provide this information after the easter >break and I will assemble this on the meeting web page. > >/js > > > --------------090509020405080804080705 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dan & All,

If you arrive from abroad, you will land in Roissy - Charle De Gaulle Airport in Paris.
>From there you can take a suburb train (RER-B) that takes you to "Gare du Nord" Train station (journey ~35 minutes). From "Gare du Nord" you have to go to the "Gare de l'Est" train station. This takes 3 minutes by feet, 10 minutes by metro. Gare de l'Est is the train station which deserves all trains to the east of France. From there, just take a train to Nancy (2h40 minutes). I'll provide you with maps and other meeting details on Juergens Web page in 7 days from now (I will travel again next week).

If you land in Orly which is unusual except if you come from soemwhere else in France, things are a bit more complicated (i.e. you have to cross Paris since Orly is in the south and Gare de L'est in the North/Est). I'll put the metro data in the web for this.

Concerning hotel reservations, there is absolutely no problem on july 30 August 1st. If I know the number of participants and the arrival+departure dates, INRIA can make the reservation  for the participants. Usually hotel rooms are between 45 - 65 Euros / night in Nancy. I'll provide links as well on the web page next week.

/Olivier

Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote: 
On Sun, Mar 27, 2005 at 11:30:23AM +0200, Romascanu, Dan (Dan) wrote:

  
I plan to attend. Will there be hotel arrangements, or at least 
recommendations for Nancy? Also, some directions about how to get 
there (what train lines, connections form the two principal 
airports in Paris, etc.) would be welcome. 
    

I am sure Olivier will provide this information after the easter
break and I will assemble this on the meeting web page. 

/js
--------------090509020405080804080705-- Received: from boskop.local (I9a71.i.pppool.de [85.73.154.113]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.1) with ESMTP id j2RJNfrW007408 for ; Sun, 27 Mar 2005 21:23:41 +0200 Received: by boskop.local (Postfix, from userid 501) id 6C92F201981; Sun, 27 Mar 2005 21:23:41 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 21:23:40 +0200 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: "Romascanu, Dan (Dan)" Subject: Re: [nmrg] voip management meeting Message-ID: <20050327192340.GA25611@boskop.local> Mail-Followup-To: "Romascanu, Dan (Dan)" , nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.8i X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: -4.9 () BAYES_00 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Cc: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: j.schoenwaelder@iu-bremen.de List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 19:23:42 -0000 On Sun, Mar 27, 2005 at 11:30:23AM +0200, Romascanu, Dan (Dan) wrote: > I plan to attend. Will there be hotel arrangements, or at least > recommendations for Nancy? Also, some directions about how to get > there (what train lines, connections form the two principal > airports in Paris, etc.) would be welcome. I am sure Olivier will provide this information after the easter break and I will assemble this on the meeting web page. /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder International University Bremen P.O. Box 750 561, 28725 Bremen, Germany Received: from tierw.net.avaya.com (tierw.net.avaya.com [198.152.13.100]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.1) with ESMTP id j2R9VorX000569 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 27 Mar 2005 11:31:51 +0200 Received: from tierw.net.avaya.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tierw.net.avaya.com (Switch-3.1.2/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id j2R9LHdk021152 for ; Sun, 27 Mar 2005 04:21:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from IS0004AVEXU1.global.avaya.com (h135-64-105-51.avaya.com [135.64.105.51]) by tierw.net.avaya.com (Switch-3.1.2/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id j2R9LEdk021114 for ; Sun, 27 Mar 2005 04:21:15 -0500 (EST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6603.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: RE: [nmrg] voip management meeting Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 11:30:23 +0200 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [nmrg] voip management meeting Thread-Index: AcUx+NWuLOPba1RfTRmm67o2GaMPywAtmkQw From: "Romascanu, Dan \(Dan\)" To: , X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: -0.001 () BAYES_44 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de id j2R9VorX000569 Cc: X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 09:31:52 -0000 I plan to attend. Will there be hotel arrangements, or at least recommendations for Nancy? Also, some directions about how to get there (what train lines, connections form the two principal airports in Paris, etc.) would be welcome. Thanks and Regards, Dan > -----Original Message----- > From: nmrg-bounces@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de > [mailto:nmrg-bounces@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de]On Behalf Of Juergen > Schoenwaelder > I received a concrete offer to host the meeting in Nancy > (thanks Olivier) > on the weekend before the IETF, which is about 2.5 hours by > train from > Paris. The idea would be to meet on Saturday (full day > meeting), enjoy > a nice evening in Nancy, meet again on Sunday morning and to > close early > afternoon so that people have time to travel to Paris and > still be able > to attend the reception or any late afternoon meetings in preparation > of the IETF. > > /js > > -- > Juergen Schoenwaelder International University Bremen > P.O. Box 750 561, > 28725 Bremen, Germany > -- >> Received: from boskop.local (I85f1.i.pppool.de [85.73.133.241]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.1) with ESMTP id j2QJpDrW027455 for ; Sat, 26 Mar 2005 20:51:13 +0100 Received: by boskop.local (Postfix, from userid 501) id 935A52017E5; Sat, 26 Mar 2005 20:51:12 +0100 (CET) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 20:51:12 +0100 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: Alan Clark Subject: Re: [nmrg] voip management meeting Message-ID: <20050326195112.GA25267@boskop.local> Mail-Followup-To: Alan Clark , nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de References: <20050326114301.GA25054@boskop.local> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.8i X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: -4.9 () BAYES_00 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Cc: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: j.schoenwaelder@iu-bremen.de List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 19:51:14 -0000 On Sat, Mar 26, 2005 at 12:54:35PM -0500, Alan Clark wrote: > I'll plan to attend the workshop Great. I will setup a web page and do some agenda planing in the coming days and then also announce this event more widely in the IRTF/IETF. /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder International University Bremen P.O. Box 750 561, 28725 Bremen, Germany Received: from mx.cbeyond.com (mx.cbeyond.net [66.180.96.58]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.1) with ESMTP id j2QHsWrX024975 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Sat, 26 Mar 2005 18:54:32 +0100 Received: from [68.158.12.139] (port=1608 helo=telws116) by mx.cbeyond.com with asmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1DFFUV-00036W-Iz; Sat, 26 Mar 2005 12:54:31 -0500 From: "Alan Clark" To: , Subject: RE: [nmrg] voip management meeting Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 12:54:35 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <20050326114301.GA25054@boskop.local> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 Importance: Normal X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: -0.001 () BAYES_44 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Cc: X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 17:54:34 -0000 I'll plan to attend the workshop Regards Alan Clark -----Original Message----- From: nmrg-bounces@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de [mailto:nmrg-bounces@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de]On Behalf Of Juergen Schoenwaelder Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2005 6:43 AM To: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Subject: Re: [nmrg] voip management meeting On Mon, Mar 14, 2005 at 09:50:03PM +0100, Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote: > As discussed before, I like to organize an VoIP management workshop > of the NMRG. There seems to be a fair amount of interests (and also > a number of different opinions to what extend management is needed > or how this management should organized). > > I see two options for such a meeting: > > a) Co-locate the meeting with the IETF in Paris (July 31-Aug 5, 2005) > Pro: Lots of people already in one place > Con: Busy week with many things going on > > b) Independent "interim" meeting soemtimes early June (US East Cost?) > Pro: Smaller but perhaps more productive in depth meeting > Con: Additional travel for many people involved > > I would like to get feedback on these two options. Other proposals > or even offers to host a VoIP management meeting are also welcome. Thanks to all who provided feedback. It seems that co-location with the IETF meeting in Paris in France is the way to go. I received a concrete offer to host the meeting in Nancy (thanks Olivier) on the weekend before the IETF, which is about 2.5 hours by train from Paris. The idea would be to meet on Saturday (full day meeting), enjoy a nice evening in Nancy, meet again on Sunday morning and to close early afternoon so that people have time to travel to Paris and still be able to attend the reception or any late afternoon meetings in preparation of the IETF. /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder International University Bremen P.O. Box 750 561, 28725 Bremen, Germany -- !! This message is brought to you via the `nmrg' mailing list. !! Please do not reply to this message to unsubscribe. To unsubscribe or adjust !! your settings, send a mail message to !! or look at https://www.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de/mailman/listinfo/nmrg. Received: from netlx010.civ.utwente.nl (netlx010.civ.utwente.nl [130.89.1.92]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.1) with ESMTP id j2QHiNrW021845 for ; Sat, 26 Mar 2005 18:44:23 +0100 Received: from [192.168.255.103] (adsl219222.adsl.utwente.nl [130.89.225.67]) by netlx010.civ.utwente.nl (8.11.7/HKD) with ESMTP id j2QHgk621932; Sat, 26 Mar 2005 18:42:47 +0100 Message-ID: <42459F18.8080206@utwente.nl> Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 18:42:48 +0100 From: Aiko Pras User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: j.schoenwaelder@iu-bremen.de Subject: Re: [nmrg] voip management meeting References: <20050314205003.GA3930@boskop.local> <20050326114301.GA25054@boskop.local> In-Reply-To: <20050326114301.GA25054@boskop.local> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UTwente-MailScanner-Information: Scanned by MailScanner. Contact helpdesk@ITBE.utwente.nl for more information. X-UTwente-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: a.pras@utwente.nl X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: -4.9 () BAYES_00 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Cc: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 17:44:24 -0000 Sounds good. I'll be there. Aiko Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote: > I received a concrete offer to host the meeting in Nancy (thanks Olivier) > on the weekend before the IETF, which is about 2.5 hours by train from > Paris. The idea would be to meet on Saturday (full day meeting), enjoy > a nice evening in Nancy, meet again on Sunday morning and to close early > afternoon so that people have time to travel to Paris and still be able > to attend the reception or any late afternoon meetings in preparation > of the IETF. > > /js > Received: from boskop.local (I9108.i.pppool.de [85.73.145.8]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.1) with ESMTP id j2QBh4rW015464 for ; Sat, 26 Mar 2005 12:43:05 +0100 Received: by boskop.local (Postfix, from userid 501) id 893AE201717; Sat, 26 Mar 2005 12:43:02 +0100 (CET) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 12:43:01 +0100 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Subject: Re: [nmrg] voip management meeting Message-ID: <20050326114301.GA25054@boskop.local> Mail-Followup-To: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de References: <20050314205003.GA3930@boskop.local> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20050314205003.GA3930@boskop.local> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.8i X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: -1.524 () BAYES_01 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: j.schoenwaelder@iu-bremen.de List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 11:43:05 -0000 On Mon, Mar 14, 2005 at 09:50:03PM +0100, Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote: > As discussed before, I like to organize an VoIP management workshop > of the NMRG. There seems to be a fair amount of interests (and also > a number of different opinions to what extend management is needed > or how this management should organized). > > I see two options for such a meeting: > > a) Co-locate the meeting with the IETF in Paris (July 31-Aug 5, 2005) > Pro: Lots of people already in one place > Con: Busy week with many things going on > > b) Independent "interim" meeting soemtimes early June (US East Cost?) > Pro: Smaller but perhaps more productive in depth meeting > Con: Additional travel for many people involved > > I would like to get feedback on these two options. Other proposals > or even offers to host a VoIP management meeting are also welcome. Thanks to all who provided feedback. It seems that co-location with the IETF meeting in Paris in France is the way to go. I received a concrete offer to host the meeting in Nancy (thanks Olivier) on the weekend before the IETF, which is about 2.5 hours by train from Paris. The idea would be to meet on Saturday (full day meeting), enjoy a nice evening in Nancy, meet again on Sunday morning and to close early afternoon so that people have time to travel to Paris and still be able to attend the reception or any late afternoon meetings in preparation of the IETF. /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder International University Bremen P.O. Box 750 561, 28725 Bremen, Germany Received: from smtp0.netlab.nec.de (smtp0.netlab.nec.de [195.37.70.40]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.1) with ESMTP id j2MDSaxo003058 for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 14:28:36 +0100 Received: from europa.office (europa.office [10.1.1.2]) by smtp0.netlab.nec.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 580FBDC3A; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 14:34:55 +0100 (CET) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: [nmrg] Measuring VoIP quality: methods and tools? Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 14:28:32 +0100 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [nmrg] Measuring VoIP quality: methods and tools? thread-index: AcUuvClrtYmrZKuKQWmdZXEZzYWXOgAJlXYg From: "Saverio Niccolini" To: X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: -0.001 () BAYES_44 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de id j2MDSaxo003058 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 08:42:19 +0100 Cc: pras@cs.utwente.nl, Marcus Brunner X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 13:28:37 -0000 Hi Aiko and all, PESQ is based on an active measurement technique. If you are interested also in passive ones you can have a look at 3SQM. 3SQM stands for "Single Sided Speech Quality Measure" It is an algorithm, developed for non-intrusive voice quality testing. It is based on ITU-T recommendation P.563 [May 2004]. Best regards, Saverio > -----Original Message----- > From: nmrg-bounces@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de > [mailto:nmrg-bounces@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de] On Behalf Of Aiko Pras > Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 9:44 AM > To: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de > Subject: [nmrg] Measuring VoIP quality: methods and tools? > > Hi > > Who knows or has experience with methods and tools to measure > VoIP quality? We know PESQ, but would like to know others. > > Bye > > Aiko > -- > !! This message is brought to you via the `nmrg' mailing list. > !! Please do not reply to this message to unsubscribe. To > unsubscribe or adjust !! your settings, send a mail message > to !! or look at > https://www.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de/mailman/listinfo/nmrg. > Received: from tiere.net.avaya.com (tiere.net.avaya.com [198.152.12.100]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.1) with ESMTP id j2M90kxp032144 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 10:00:47 +0100 Received: from tiere.net.avaya.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tiere.net.avaya.com (Switch-3.1.2/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id j2M8wVxt005985 for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 03:58:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from IS0004AVEXU1.global.avaya.com (h135-64-105-51.avaya.com [135.64.105.51]) by tiere.net.avaya.com (Switch-3.1.2/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id j2M8wTxt005936 for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 03:58:29 -0500 (EST) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6603.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: RE: [nmrg] Measuring VoIP quality: methods and tools? Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 10:59:31 +0200 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [nmrg] Measuring VoIP quality: methods and tools? Thread-Index: AcUuuytCKZ74cDN9TpiwKF62/q1P9QAAUp/A From: "Romascanu, Dan \(Dan\)" To: "Aiko Pras" , X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de id j2M90kxp032144 Cc: X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 09:00:53 -0000 Telchemy http://www.telchemy.com/ have an application VQmon largely based upon RTCP-XR (RFC 3611). My employer deploys an application largely based upon the RAQMON Internet Drafts which are an extension of the RMON family of applications for QoS monitoring of applications in real-time (VoIP and other). Regards, Dan > -----Original Message----- > From: nmrg-bounces@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de > [mailto:nmrg-bounces@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de]On Behalf Of Aiko Pras > Sent: 22 March, 2005 10:44 AM > To: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de > Subject: [nmrg] Measuring VoIP quality: methods and tools? > > > Hi > > Who knows or has experience with methods and tools to measure VoIP > quality? We know PESQ, but would like to know others. > > Bye > > Aiko > -- > !! This message is brought to you via the `nmrg' mailing list. > !! Please do not reply to this message to unsubscribe. To > unsubscribe or adjust > !! your settings, send a mail message to > > !! or look at https://www.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de/mailman/listinfo/nmrg. > Received: from denhaag.ewi.utwente.nl (denhaag.ewi.utwente.nl [130.89.10.11]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.1) with ESMTP id j2M8hqxo018827 for ; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 09:43:52 +0100 Received: from [130.89.12.39] (utip250.ewi.utwente.nl [130.89.12.39]) by denhaag.ewi.utwente.nl (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j2M8hmIR018082; Tue, 22 Mar 2005 09:43:48 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <423FDAC0.4070000@cs.utwente.nl> Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 09:43:44 +0100 From: Aiko Pras User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -4.122 () BAYES_00,TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.44 X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: -0.65 () BAYES_20,TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL Subject: [nmrg] Measuring VoIP quality: methods and tools? X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 08:43:58 -0000 Hi Who knows or has experience with methods and tools to measure VoIP quality? We know PESQ, but would like to know others. Bye Aiko Received: from denhaag.ewi.utwente.nl (denhaag.ewi.utwente.nl [130.89.10.11]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.1) with ESMTP id j2LG4Uxo031146 for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 17:04:30 +0100 Received: from [130.89.12.39] (utip250.ewi.utwente.nl [130.89.12.39]) by denhaag.ewi.utwente.nl (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j2LG4QFa011237; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 17:04:26 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <423EF087.1070207@cs.utwente.nl> Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 17:04:23 +0100 From: Aiko Pras User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dbharrington@comcast.net Subject: Re: [nmrg] voip management meeting References: <200503211353.j2LDrDgw003530@denhaag.ewi.utwente.nl> In-Reply-To: <200503211353.j2LDrDgw003530@denhaag.ewi.utwente.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -4.9 () BAYES_00 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.44 X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: -0.904 () BAYES_30 Cc: j.schoenwaelder@iu-bremen.de, nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 16:04:36 -0000 David B Harrington wrote: > I doubt I will make the meeting in Paris, but I suggest planning the > NMRG meeting for the weekend following the IETF meeting rather than > the weekend before. I will not be able to be in Paris the weekend after the IETF; I can only be there before. Also I assumed that, after a week of IETF, people want only 1 thing: go home ;-) Aiko Received: from sccrmhc12.comcast.net (sccrmhc12.comcast.net [204.127.202.56]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.1) with ESMTP id j2LDr7xo024894 for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 14:53:07 +0100 Message-Id: <200503211353.j2LDr7xo024894@agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de> Received: from djyxpy41 (h00104b8ce2a3.ne.client2.attbi.com[24.128.104.220]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc12) with SMTP id <2005032113530701200e56lme>; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 13:53:07 +0000 From: "David B Harrington" To: "'Aiko Pras'" , , Subject: RE: [nmrg] voip management meeting Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 08:53:01 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 In-Reply-To: <423E93BA.4050308@cs.utwente.nl> thread-index: AcUt+F+pvnVHICwrSf6fSh0lKdqJhgAJC88Q X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 26 Mar 2005 08:41:55 +0100 Cc: X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: dbharrington@comcast.net List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 13:53:13 -0000 Hi, I doubt I will make the meeting in Paris, but I suggest planning the NMRG meeting for the weekend following the IETF meeting rather than the weekend before. There are a number of tutorial sessions and other meetings that occur on the Sunday preceding an IETF meeting, and it is also common for authors of drafts to get together on Sunday to discuss strategy, editing sessions, and presentations for sessions to be held during the week. David Harrington dbharrington@comcast.net > -----Original Message----- > From: nmrg-bounces@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de > [mailto:nmrg-bounces@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de] On Behalf Of Aiko Pras > Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 4:28 AM > To: j.schoenwaelder@iu-bremen.de; nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de > Subject: Re: [nmrg] voip management meeting > > Hi > > Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote: > > As discussed before, I like to organize an VoIP management workshop > > of the NMRG. There seems to be a fair amount of interests (and also > > a number of different opinions to what extend management is needed > > or how this management should organized). > > > > I see two options for such a meeting: > > > > a) Co-locate the meeting with the IETF in Paris (July > 31-Aug 5, 2005) > I would be in favour of this option. We could start saterday > July 30 and > continue on sunday 31 july. > > Aiko > -- > !! This message is brought to you via the `nmrg' mailing list. > !! Please do not reply to this message to unsubscribe. To > unsubscribe or adjust > !! your settings, send a mail message to > > !! or look at https://www.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de/mailman/listinfo/nmrg. > Received: from hoemail2.lucent.com (hoemail2.lucent.com [192.11.226.163]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.1) with ESMTP id j2LCqExo008624 for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 13:52:14 +0100 Received: from nl0006exch001h.wins.lucent.com (h135-85-76-62.lucent.com [135.85.76.62]) by hoemail2.lucent.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j2LCqBDD024662 for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 06:52:12 -0600 (CST) Received: by nl0006exch001h.nl.lucent.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id <1Z0M76D2>; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 13:52:11 +0100 Message-ID: <7D5D48D2CAA3D84C813F5B154F43B15506AD7607@nl0006exch001u.nl.lucent.com> From: "Wijnen, Bert (Bert)" To: "'Aiko Pras'" , j.schoenwaelder@iu-bremen.de, nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Subject: RE: [nmrg] voip management meeting Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 13:52:06 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Cc: X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 12:52:20 -0000 > Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote: > > As discussed before, I like to organize an VoIP management workshop > > of the NMRG. There seems to be a fair amount of interests (and also > > a number of different opinions to what extend management is needed > > or how this management should organized). > > > > I see two options for such a meeting: > > > > a) Co-locate the meeting with the IETF in Paris (July 31-Aug 5, 2005) > I would be in favour of this option. We could start saterday July 30 and > continue on sunday 31 july. > I would like to participate, But the Sunday (before the IETF) I will be busy in IESG/IAB and such sort of meetings. SOmetimes we even have those on Saturday. Bert > Aiko Received: from denhaag.ewi.utwente.nl (denhaag.ewi.utwente.nl [130.89.10.11]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.1) with ESMTP id j2L9SWxo030105 for ; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 10:28:32 +0100 Received: from [130.89.12.39] (utip250.ewi.utwente.nl [130.89.12.39]) by denhaag.ewi.utwente.nl (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j2L9STrs018534; Mon, 21 Mar 2005 10:28:30 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <423E93BA.4050308@cs.utwente.nl> Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 10:28:26 +0100 From: Aiko Pras User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0 (Windows/20041206) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: j.schoenwaelder@iu-bremen.de, nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Subject: Re: [nmrg] voip management meeting References: <20050314205003.GA3930@boskop.local> In-Reply-To: <20050314205003.GA3930@boskop.local> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -4.9 () BAYES_00 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.44 X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: -0.904 () BAYES_30 Cc: X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 09:28:38 -0000 Hi Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote: > As discussed before, I like to organize an VoIP management workshop > of the NMRG. There seems to be a fair amount of interests (and also > a number of different opinions to what extend management is needed > or how this management should organized). > > I see two options for such a meeting: > > a) Co-locate the meeting with the IETF in Paris (July 31-Aug 5, 2005) I would be in favour of this option. We could start saterday July 30 and continue on sunday 31 july. Aiko Received: from macker.loria.fr (macker.loria.fr [152.81.1.70]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.1) with ESMTP id j2FB4vxo019092 for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2005 12:04:57 +0100 Received: from localhost.loria.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13C184B61F for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2005 12:04:57 +0100 (CET) X-Amavix: Anti-virus check done by ClamAV X-Amavix: Scanned by Amavix Received: from Davis (davis.loria.fr [152.81.9.215]) by macker.loria.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 8FB974B4EA for ; Tue, 15 Mar 2005 12:04:56 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <016101c5294e$c3641070$9f725198@Davis> From: "Radu State" To: References: <200503151100.j2FB0Dxp013020@agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de> Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 12:04:31 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: -0.001 () BAYES_44 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 09:35:05 +0100 Subject: [nmrg] Re: Nmrg Digest, Vol 8, Issue 4 X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2005 11:04:58 -0000 Hi Juergen I am in favor of Paris as a meeting place, but this choice is natural for me, given that I can get there in less than 3 hours. Rs ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 12:00 PM Subject: Nmrg Digest, Vol 8, Issue 4 > Send Nmrg mailing list submissions to > nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://www.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de/mailman/listinfo/nmrg > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > nmrg-request@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de > > You can reach the person managing the list at > nmrg-owner@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Nmrg digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. voip management meeting (Juergen Schoenwaelder) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 21:50:03 +0100 > From: Juergen Schoenwaelder > Subject: [nmrg] voip management meeting > To: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de > Message-ID: <20050314205003.GA3930@boskop.local> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > As discussed before, I like to organize an VoIP management workshop > of the NMRG. There seems to be a fair amount of interests (and also > a number of different opinions to what extend management is needed > or how this management should organized). > > I see two options for such a meeting: > > a) Co-locate the meeting with the IETF in Paris (July 31-Aug 5, 2005) > Pro: Lots of people already in one place > Con: Busy week with many things going on > > b) Independent "interim" meeting soemtimes early June (US East Cost?) > Pro: Smaller but perhaps more productive in depth meeting > Con: Additional travel for many people involved > > I would like to get feedback on these two options. Other proposals > or even offers to host a VoIP management meeting are also welcome. > > /js > > -- > Juergen Schoenwaelder International University Bremen > P.O. Box 750 561, 28725 Bremen, Germany > > > ------------------------------ > > -- > !! This message is brought to you via the `nmrg' mailing list. > !! Please do not reply to this message to unsubscribe. To unsubscribe or adjust > !! your settings, send a mail message to > !! or look at https://www.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de/mailman/listinfo/nmrg. > > End of Nmrg Digest, Vol 8, Issue 4 > ********************************** > Received: from boskop.local (I9923.i.pppool.de [85.73.153.35]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.1) with ESMTP id j2EKo6xo010559 for ; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 21:50:06 +0100 Received: by boskop.local (Postfix, from userid 501) id 9951B1EEE08; Mon, 14 Mar 2005 21:50:03 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 21:50:03 +0100 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Message-ID: <20050314205003.GA3930@boskop.local> Mail-Followup-To: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: -1.428 () BAYES_20 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Subject: [nmrg] voip management meeting X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: j.schoenwaelder@iu-bremen.de List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2005 20:50:07 -0000 As discussed before, I like to organize an VoIP management workshop of the NMRG. There seems to be a fair amount of interests (and also a number of different opinions to what extend management is needed or how this management should organized). I see two options for such a meeting: a) Co-locate the meeting with the IETF in Paris (July 31-Aug 5, 2005) Pro: Lots of people already in one place Con: Busy week with many things going on b) Independent "interim" meeting soemtimes early June (US East Cost?) Pro: Smaller but perhaps more productive in depth meeting Con: Additional travel for many people involved I would like to get feedback on these two options. Other proposals or even offers to host a VoIP management meeting are also welcome. /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder International University Bremen P.O. Box 750 561, 28725 Bremen, Germany Received: from boskop.local (Iafc1.i.pppool.de [85.73.175.193]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.1) with ESMTP id j2BJb1kP028676 for ; Fri, 11 Mar 2005 20:37:01 +0100 Received: by boskop.local (Postfix, from userid 501) id 840981EBCAB; Fri, 11 Mar 2005 20:36:59 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 20:36:59 +0100 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Message-ID: <20050311193659.GA2360@boskop.local> Mail-Followup-To: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: -1.428 () BAYES_20 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Subject: [nmrg] [bwijnen@lucent.com: OASIS approves new standards for WSDM] X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: j.schoenwaelder@iu-bremen.de List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 19:37:02 -0000 This may be of interest for some of you as well. ;-) /js ----- Forwarded message from "Wijnen, Bert (Bert)" ----- From: "Wijnen, Bert (Bert)" To: "'ops-nm@ops.ietf.org'" Subject: OASIS approves new standards for WSDM Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2005 13:28:50 +0100 Precedence: bulk FYI for those who do not normally see such announcements Bert --------------------------------------------------------------------- WSDM Approved as OASIS Standard Both the Web Services Distributed Management (WSDM) - Management Using Web Services (MUWS) and the WSDM - Management of Web Services (MOWS) specifications have been voted on and approved as OASIS Standards. The two WSDM specifications were developed by the OASIS WSDM TC and serve together to define a method for utilizing Web services to manage distributed resources. The TC members and co-chairs are to be congratulated on their work in developing these standards. http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/members/200503/msg00003.html ----- End forwarded message ----- Received: from sj-iport-4.cisco.com (sj-iport-4.cisco.com [171.68.10.86]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.1) with ESMTP id j22Lq15i018974 for ; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 22:52:02 +0100 Received: from sj-core-4.cisco.com (171.68.223.138) by sj-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 02 Mar 2005 13:53:22 -0800 X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Received: from vtg-um-e2k4.sj21ad.cisco.com (vtg-um-e2k4.cisco.com [171.70.93.57]) by sj-core-4.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j22LpqYQ008221; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 13:51:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([171.68.225.134]) by vtg-um-e2k4.sj21ad.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Wed, 2 Mar 2005 13:51:54 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.1.0.040913 Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 13:51:49 -0800 Subject: Re: [nmrg] another possible subject for the nmrg workshop on voip management From: Cullen Jennings To: "Romascanu, Dan (Dan)" , Margaret Wasserman , , , , , Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Mar 2005 21:51:54.0462 (UTC) FILETIME=[0C6537E0:01C51F72] X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 17:48:03 +0100 Cc: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 21:52:09 -0000 On 3/2/05 10:30 AM, "Romascanu, Dan (Dan)" wrote: > Did you realize that you are the first to mention SNMP in this discussion? :-) oops :-) > > Believe or not most of the people in the management field know that there is > management beyond SNMP, are very aware of its limitations, and even worked for > the last few years on solutions different, or complementing SNMP. yes, and very encouraged about that too. I'm also aware of what happened in midcom and the fact that although several companies went and implemented proprietary midcom protocols, the midcom chair does not know of anyone that is doing an implementation of the midcom protocol. I'd rather not repeat that experience. Received: from tierw.net.avaya.com (tierw.net.avaya.com [198.152.13.100]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.1) with ESMTP id j22IXM5j007584 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 19:33:23 +0100 Received: from tierw.net.avaya.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tierw.net.avaya.com (Switch-3.1.2/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id j22INFXM024785 for ; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 13:23:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from IS0004AVEXU1.global.avaya.com (h135-64-105-51.avaya.com [135.64.105.51]) by tierw.net.avaya.com (Switch-3.1.2/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id j22ILlXM022567 for ; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 13:22:07 -0500 (EST) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6603.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: RE: [nmrg] another possible subject for the nmrg workshop on voip management Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 20:30:59 +0200 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [nmrg] another possible subject for the nmrg workshop on voip management Thread-index: AcUfVEZpuSjNA5KSR8m6Dp7+HKjxfQAAPtkA From: "Romascanu, Dan \(Dan\)" To: "Cullen Jennings" , "Margaret Wasserman" , , , , , X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: -0.001 () BAYES_44 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de id j22IXM5j007584 Cc: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 18:33:26 -0000 Did you realize that you are the first to mention SNMP in this discussion? :-) Believe or not most of the people in the management field know that there is management beyond SNMP, are very aware of its limitations, and even worked for the last few years on solutions different, or complementing SNMP. Regards, Dan > -----Original Message----- Do we need to invent a different protocol - probably not depending on what you define as the scope. But if we asked the questions slightly different, do we need to invent something other than SNMP, well I think the current deployment results more or less speak for themselves. I don't know why people choose not to do SNMP, but it seems like something worth figuring out and addressing. Cullen Received: from sj-iport-4.cisco.com (sj-iport-4.cisco.com [171.68.10.86]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.1) with ESMTP id j22IGA5j003747 for ; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 19:16:16 +0100 Received: from sj-core-4.cisco.com (171.68.223.138) by sj-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 02 Mar 2005 10:17:36 -0800 X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Received: from vtg-um-e2k4.sj21ad.cisco.com (vtg-um-e2k4.cisco.com [171.70.93.57]) by sj-core-4.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j22IGDYO004986; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 10:16:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([171.68.225.134]) by vtg-um-e2k4.sj21ad.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Wed, 2 Mar 2005 10:16:12 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.1.0.040913 Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 10:16:08 -0800 Subject: Re: [nmrg] another possible subject for the nmrg workshop on voip management From: Cullen Jennings To: "Romascanu, Dan (Dan)" , Margaret Wasserman , , , , , Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Mar 2005 18:16:12.0786 (UTC) FILETIME=[EA8E2D20:01C51F53] X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 17:48:03 +0100 Cc: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 18:16:18 -0000 On 3/2/05 3:02 AM, "Romascanu, Dan (Dan)" wrote: >> >> I hope to see folks weighing on the debate of xcon vs. xcap >> since a draft >> was just submitted on that issue. Lisa D has tried to start >> discussions on >> this before and not many people have helped provide input on what IETF >> should do. >> >> The comparison of XCON to NETCONF or WebDAV leaves me totally >> confused. XCON >> is about conferencing. >> > > I apologize for not being clear, but that was just one bullet trying to say > too much. By looking at the requirements described > http://www.ietf.cnri.reston.va.us/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-xcon-cpcp-reqs-04 > .txt I cannot help wondering if inventing a new protocol is really necessary. No problem - yes I think there are some good points, with this draft in particular xcon may move to discarding cpcp all together. Still unclear but discussions are starting and could use the help of a network management perspective and experience. > I know discussions are happening, and I believe they are a good start, but > maybe we need to go further. At the end of the day operators will need to > manage IP networks, running SIP, and conferencing, and many other. Do we need > to invent a different protocol for configuration of each one of the layers and > applications? Do we need to invent a different protocol - probably not depending on what you define as the scope. But if we asked the questions slightly different, do we need to invent something other than SNMP, well I think the current deployment results more or less speak for themselves. I don't know why people choose not to do SNMP, but it seems like something worth figuring out and addressing. Cullen Received: from sj-iport-4.cisco.com (sj-iport-4.cisco.com [171.68.10.86]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.1) with ESMTP id j22IGA5i003747 for ; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 19:16:10 +0100 Received: from sj-core-3.cisco.com (171.68.223.137) by sj-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 02 Mar 2005 10:17:30 -0800 X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Received: from vtg-um-e2k4.sj21ad.cisco.com (vtg-um-e2k4.cisco.com [171.70.93.57]) by sj-core-3.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j22IG5TM008810; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 10:16:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([171.68.225.134]) by vtg-um-e2k4.sj21ad.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Wed, 2 Mar 2005 10:16:05 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.1.0.040913 Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 10:16:00 -0800 Subject: Re: [nmrg] another possible subject for the nmrg workshop on voip management From: Cullen Jennings To: , "'Romascanu, Dan (Dan)'" , "'Margaret Wasserman'" , , , , Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3q25qq$1a2cou@sj-inbound-c.cisco.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Mar 2005 18:16:05.0724 (UTC) FILETIME=[E65899C0:01C51F53] X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 17:48:03 +0100 Cc: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 18:16:12 -0000 Many Jabber clients are like this too. I'd say XMPP but I'm not sure XMPP standardized all that stuff to make this happen - hope I'm wrong on this. I have a funny/sad/sick story about the state of SIP device configuration. At the sipit interop events where we test SIP stuff, we set up a sip phone at everyone's table so all the teams can phone each other. Something like 140 vendors show up. A few people will spend many many hours the two days before setting up all these phones - the obvious solution would be just to tell each team to grab their phones out of the box in the front of the room and go set it up. Turns out they are too complex to do this and everyone does it wrong and it is less effort just to set them all up. The engineers that design and test SIP devices are incapable of following the instructions to set up a different vendors phones without tons of problems. Think about it - SIP needs help. Partially this is an issue of people have not implemented stuff that could help but partially, it's just not clear how to make it work in a way that people are willing to implement. Cullen On 3/2/05 9:29 AM, "henry@sinnreich.net" wrote: > Skype has one single provisioning step: Download and pick your name. > > Let the flames come on! > > Thanks, Henry > > -----Original Message----- > From: Romascanu, Dan (Dan) [mailto:dromasca@avaya.com] > Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 6:11 AM > To: Cullen Jennings; Margaret Wasserman; henry@sinnreich.net; > j.schoenwaelder@iu-bremen.de; alan.d.clark@telchemy.com; klingle@cisco.com; > jf.mule@cablelabs.com > Cc: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de > Subject: RE: [nmrg] another possible subject for the nmrg workshop on voip > management > > Cullen, > > Behind the magic that you describe are protocols, scripts and > pre-provisioning operations that belong in my opinion to 'management'. The > 'plug-and-play paradigm that you describe is by no means something that is > specific to VoIP. The same magic will happen on Sunday when we will 'plug' > our lap-tops in the IETF wireless network. The same magic happened eight > years ago when my younger son who was nine by that time opened the box and > installed by himself the first Ethernet switch I brought into our home. > > But yes, the state of deployed IP management leaves much to be desired, > VoIP brings new challenges, expectations are high, and we expect or already > encounter problems. > > Regards, > > Dan > >> >> >> I don't believe that voice and data necessarily need separate >> management protocols. I think VoIP is just an application on an IP >> network. However, the expectation around management around voice is >> very high. >> Do you know >> that nearly 100% of users can plug in an analog phone to a >> RJ11 jack and >> have it work with no calls to tech support. Voice providers can trace >> back and tel you exactly where problems happened. Now consider the IP >> network at many companies is largely "managed" by perl scripts that >> screen scrape IOS commands lines. >> >> My point is 1) the expectation for voice are higher than data is today >> 2) the state of deployed IP management leaves much to be desired. >> >> >> On 2/23/05 4:55 AM, "Margaret Wasserman" >> wrote: >>> Personally, I think that this is a really interesting question... >>> >>> Put another way, does VOIP infrastructure really differ enough from >>> IP infrastructure that they need their own configuration protocols? >>> If so, what is different about it that makes network configuration >>> protocols inadequate? Could we modify/extend existing network >>> configuration protocols to make them more useful for VOIP? >> >> >> >> Received: from tiere.net.avaya.com (tiere.net.avaya.com [198.152.12.100]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.1) with ESMTP id j22Hls5j029190 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 18:47:55 +0100 Received: from tiere.net.avaya.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tiere.net.avaya.com (Switch-3.1.2/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id j22HjgTH005011 for ; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 12:45:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from IS0004AVEXU1.global.avaya.com (h135-64-105-51.avaya.com [135.64.105.51]) by tiere.net.avaya.com (Switch-3.1.2/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id j22Hi0TH002439 for ; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 12:44:34 -0500 (EST) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6603.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: RE: [nmrg] another possible subject for the nmrg workshop on voipmanagement Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 19:45:40 +0200 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [nmrg] another possible subject for the nmrg workshop on voipmanagement Thread-index: AcUeztO/FF4GF5a7QNCYCYVv39UJzgASK1NAAA0h3LAAAMKHIA== From: "Romascanu, Dan \(Dan\)" To: , "Cullen Jennings" , "Margaret Wasserman" , , , , X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de id j22Hls5j029190 Cc: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 17:47:56 -0000 Flaming on you? never! I believe that from the point of view of an user the goal is to reach and keep the provisioning as simple as you describe it, while enjoying the level of service and the applications he/she is paying for. >From the point of view of the provider the goal is to be able to provide the appropriate configuration, keep the level of service the customer is paying for, and make enough money in the process to keep the business running and profitable. Now, I suspect that some protocols and applications that I call 'management' and you may call differently may be involved in this. Regards, Dan > -----Original Message----- > From: nmrg-bounces@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de > [mailto:nmrg-bounces@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de]On Behalf Of henry@sinnreich.net > Sent: 02 March, 2005 7:29 PM > To: Romascanu, Dan (Dan); 'Cullen Jennings'; 'Margaret > Wasserman'; j.schoenwaelder@iu-bremen.de; > alan.d.clark@telchemy.com; klingle@cisco.com; jf.mule@cablelabs.com > Cc: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de > Subject: RE: [nmrg] another possible subject for the nmrg > workshop on voipmanagement > > > Skype has one single provisioning step: Download and pick your name. > > Let the flames come on! > > Thanks, Henry > > -----Original Message----- > From: Romascanu, Dan (Dan) [mailto:dromasca@avaya.com] > Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 6:11 AM > To: Cullen Jennings; Margaret Wasserman; henry@sinnreich.net; > j.schoenwaelder@iu-bremen.de; alan.d.clark@telchemy.com; > klingle@cisco.com; > jf.mule@cablelabs.com > Cc: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de > Subject: RE: [nmrg] another possible subject for the nmrg > workshop on voip > management > > Cullen, > > Behind the magic that you describe are protocols, scripts and > pre-provisioning operations that belong in my opinion to > 'management'. The > 'plug-and-play paradigm that you describe is by no means > something that is > specific to VoIP. The same magic will happen on Sunday when > we will 'plug' > our lap-tops in the IETF wireless network. The same magic > happened eight > years ago when my younger son who was nine by that time > opened the box and > installed by himself the first Ethernet switch I brought into > our home. > > But yes, the state of deployed IP management leaves much to > be desired, > VoIP brings new challenges, expectations are high, and we > expect or already > encounter problems. > > Regards, > > Dan > > > > > > > I don't believe that voice and data necessarily need separate > > management protocols. I think VoIP is just an application on an IP > > network. However, the expectation around management around voice is > > very high. > > Do you know > > that nearly 100% of users can plug in an analog phone to a > > RJ11 jack and > > have it work with no calls to tech support. Voice providers > can trace > > back and tel you exactly where problems happened. Now > consider the IP > > network at many companies is largely "managed" by perl scripts that > > screen scrape IOS commands lines. > > > > My point is 1) the expectation for voice are higher than > data is today > > 2) the state of deployed IP management leaves much to be desired. > > > > > > On 2/23/05 4:55 AM, "Margaret Wasserman" > > wrote: > > > Personally, I think that this is a really interesting question... > > > > > > Put another way, does VOIP infrastructure really differ > enough from > > > IP infrastructure that they need their own configuration > protocols? > > > If so, what is different about it that makes network > configuration > > > protocols inadequate? Could we modify/extend existing network > > > configuration protocols to make them more useful for VOIP? > > > > > > > > > > > -- > !! This message is brought to you via the `nmrg' mailing list. > !! Please do not reply to this message to unsubscribe. To > unsubscribe or adjust > !! your settings, send a mail message to > > !! or look at https://www.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de/mailman/listinfo/nmrg. > Received: from box6.bluehost.com (box6.bluehost.com [209.63.57.146]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.1) with ESMTP id j22HTW5j024528 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 18:29:36 +0100 Message-Id: <200503021729.j22HTW5j024528@agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de> Received: from vpn-asq1-131-146-1-70.mcilink.com ([131.146.1.70] helo=ThinkpadT40) by box6.bluehost.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.44) id 1D6Xev-0006Pp-4e; Wed, 02 Mar 2005 10:29:19 -0700 From: To: "'Romascanu, Dan \(Dan\)'" , "'Cullen Jennings'" , "'Margaret Wasserman'" , , , , Subject: RE: [nmrg] another possible subject for the nmrg workshop on voip management Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 12:29:10 -0500 Organization: sinnreich.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.6353 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Thread-Index: AcUeztO/FF4GF5a7QNCYCYVv39UJzgASK1NAAA0h3LA= X-PopBeforeSMTPSenders: henry@sinnreich.net X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box6.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - sinnreich.net X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: 0.161 () BAYES_50,NO_REAL_NAME X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Cc: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: henry@sinnreich.net List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 17:29:45 -0000 Skype has one single provisioning step: Download and pick your name. Let the flames come on! Thanks, Henry -----Original Message----- From: Romascanu, Dan (Dan) [mailto:dromasca@avaya.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 6:11 AM To: Cullen Jennings; Margaret Wasserman; henry@sinnreich.net; j.schoenwaelder@iu-bremen.de; alan.d.clark@telchemy.com; klingle@cisco.com; jf.mule@cablelabs.com Cc: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Subject: RE: [nmrg] another possible subject for the nmrg workshop on voip management Cullen, Behind the magic that you describe are protocols, scripts and pre-provisioning operations that belong in my opinion to 'management'. The 'plug-and-play paradigm that you describe is by no means something that is specific to VoIP. The same magic will happen on Sunday when we will 'plug' our lap-tops in the IETF wireless network. The same magic happened eight years ago when my younger son who was nine by that time opened the box and installed by himself the first Ethernet switch I brought into our home. But yes, the state of deployed IP management leaves much to be desired, VoIP brings new challenges, expectations are high, and we expect or already encounter problems. Regards, Dan > > > I don't believe that voice and data necessarily need separate > management protocols. I think VoIP is just an application on an IP > network. However, the expectation around management around voice is > very high. > Do you know > that nearly 100% of users can plug in an analog phone to a > RJ11 jack and > have it work with no calls to tech support. Voice providers can trace > back and tel you exactly where problems happened. Now consider the IP > network at many companies is largely "managed" by perl scripts that > screen scrape IOS commands lines. > > My point is 1) the expectation for voice are higher than data is today > 2) the state of deployed IP management leaves much to be desired. > > > On 2/23/05 4:55 AM, "Margaret Wasserman" > wrote: > > Personally, I think that this is a really interesting question... > > > > Put another way, does VOIP infrastructure really differ enough from > > IP infrastructure that they need their own configuration protocols? > > If so, what is different about it that makes network configuration > > protocols inadequate? Could we modify/extend existing network > > configuration protocols to make them more useful for VOIP? > > > > Received: from tiere.net.avaya.com (tiere.net.avaya.com [198.152.12.100]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.1) with ESMTP id j22BBe5j028150 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 12:11:41 +0100 Received: from tiere.net.avaya.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tiere.net.avaya.com (Switch-3.1.2/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id j22B9TTH009195 for ; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 06:09:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from IS0004AVEXU1.global.avaya.com (h135-64-105-51.avaya.com [135.64.105.51]) by tiere.net.avaya.com (Switch-3.1.2/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id j22B9QTH009157 for ; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 06:09:27 -0500 (EST) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6603.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: RE: [nmrg] another possible subject for the nmrg workshop on voip management Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 13:11:07 +0200 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [nmrg] another possible subject for the nmrg workshop on voip management Thread-index: AcUeztO/FF4GF5a7QNCYCYVv39UJzgASK1NA From: "Romascanu, Dan \(Dan\)" To: "Cullen Jennings" , "Margaret Wasserman" , , , , , X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de id j22BBe5j028150 Cc: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 11:11:42 -0000 Cullen, Behind the magic that you describe are protocols, scripts and pre-provisioning operations that belong in my opinion to 'management'. The 'plug-and-play paradigm that you describe is by no means something that is specific to VoIP. The same magic will happen on Sunday when we will 'plug' our lap-tops in the IETF wireless network. The same magic happened eight years ago when my younger son who was nine by that time opened the box and installed by himself the first Ethernet switch I brought into our home. But yes, the state of deployed IP management leaves much to be desired, VoIP brings new challenges, expectations are high, and we expect or already encounter problems. Regards, Dan > > > I don't believe that voice and data necessarily need separate > management > protocols. I think VoIP is just an application on an IP > network. However, > the expectation around management around voice is very high. > Do you know > that nearly 100% of users can plug in an analog phone to a > RJ11 jack and > have it work with no calls to tech support. Voice providers > can trace back > and tel you exactly where problems happened. Now consider the > IP network at > many companies is largely "managed" by perl scripts that > screen scrape IOS > commands lines. > > My point is 1) the expectation for voice are higher than data > is today 2) > the state of deployed IP management leaves much to be desired. > > > On 2/23/05 4:55 AM, "Margaret Wasserman" > wrote: > > Personally, I think that this is a really interesting question... > > > > Put another way, does VOIP infrastructure really differ enough from > > IP infrastructure that they need their own configuration protocols? > > If so, what is different about it that makes network configuration > > protocols inadequate? Could we modify/extend existing network > > configuration protocols to make them more useful for VOIP? > > > > Received: from tierw.net.avaya.com (tierw.net.avaya.com [198.152.13.100]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.1) with ESMTP id j22B305j026083 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 12:03:02 +0100 Received: from tierw.net.avaya.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tierw.net.avaya.com (Switch-3.1.2/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id j22AqsXM005961 for ; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 05:52:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from IS0004AVEXU1.global.avaya.com (h135-64-105-51.avaya.com [135.64.105.51]) by tierw.net.avaya.com (Switch-3.1.2/Switch-3.1.0) with ESMTP id j22AqpXM005943 for ; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 05:52:52 -0500 (EST) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6603.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: RE: [nmrg] another possible subject for the nmrg workshop on voip management Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2005 13:02:26 +0200 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [nmrg] another possible subject for the nmrg workshop on voip management Thread-index: AcUe0Sm2hv2C5SgsShOQkTe1OxrZ+wARSkfw From: "Romascanu, Dan \(Dan\)" To: "Cullen Jennings" , "Margaret Wasserman" , , , , , X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: -0.001 () BAYES_44 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de id j22B305j026083 Cc: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 11:03:04 -0000 > > I hope to see folks weighing on the debate of xcon vs. xcap > since a draft > was just submitted on that issue. Lisa D has tried to start > discussions on > this before and not many people have helped provide input on what IETF > should do. > > The comparison of XCON to NETCONF or WebDAV leaves me totally > confused. XCON > is about conferencing. > I apologize for not being clear, but that was just one bullet trying to say too much. By looking at the requirements described http://www.ietf.cnri.reston.va.us/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-xcon-cpcp-reqs-04.txt I cannot help wondering if inventing a new protocol is really necessary. I know discussions are happening, and I believe they are a good start, but maybe we need to go further. At the end of the day operators will need to manage IP networks, running SIP, and conferencing, and many other. Do we need to invent a different protocol for configuration of each one of the layers and applications? > > Received: from sj-iport-5.cisco.com (sj-iport-5.cisco.com [171.68.10.87]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.1) with ESMTP id j222ecxo025363 for ; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 03:40:38 +0100 Received: from sj-core-3.cisco.com (171.68.223.137) by sj-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 01 Mar 2005 18:30:43 -0800 X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-IronPort-AV: i="3.90,128,1107763200"; d="scan'208"; a="164477468:sNHT21751576" Received: from vtg-um-e2k4.sj21ad.cisco.com (vtg-um-e2k4.cisco.com [171.70.93.57]) by sj-core-3.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j222PsTM003812; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 18:25:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([171.68.225.134]) by vtg-um-e2k4.sj21ad.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Tue, 1 Mar 2005 18:25:53 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.1.0.040913 Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 18:25:50 -0800 Subject: Re: [nmrg] another possible subject for the nmrg workshop on voip management From: Cullen Jennings To: Margaret Wasserman , "Romascanu, Dan (Dan)" , , , , , Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Mar 2005 02:25:53.0821 (UTC) FILETIME=[289A94D0:01C51ECF] X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 17:48:03 +0100 Cc: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 02:40:44 -0000 On 2/23/05 4:55 AM, "Margaret Wasserman" wrote: > At 2:14 PM +0200 2/21/05, Romascanu, Dan \(Dan\) wrote: > content-class: urn:content-classes:message > Content-Type: multipart/alternative; > boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C5180E.DED98ED6" > > Let me stir a little bit more the pot and raise another item that I > believe is worth being discussed in the projected workshop. Why do > VoIP WGs, and especially the SIP-related ones need to define > specialized protocols for each purpose and application rather than > looking around for using existing protocols and languages? Sometimes > it looks to me like SIP tries to re-invent every wheel already > turning in the IETF. Do we really need XCAP and XCON when we have > NETCONF and WebDAV? > > ... yes, I know this may not be a popular view either :-) > > Regards, > > Dan I hope to see folks weighing on the debate of xcon vs. xcap since a draft was just submitted on that issue. Lisa D has tried to start discussions on this before and not many people have helped provide input on what IETF should do. The comparison of XCON to NETCONF or WebDAV leaves me totally confused. XCON is about conferencing. Received: from sj-iport-4.cisco.com (sj-iport-4.cisco.com [171.68.10.86]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.1) with ESMTP id j222Nrxo022027 for ; Wed, 2 Mar 2005 03:23:53 +0100 Received: from sj-core-3.cisco.com (171.68.223.137) by sj-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 01 Mar 2005 18:25:05 -0800 X-BrightmailFiltered: true X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Received: from vtg-um-e2k4.sj21ad.cisco.com (vtg-um-e2k4.cisco.com [171.70.93.57]) by sj-core-3.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id j222NlTM002585; Tue, 1 Mar 2005 18:23:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([171.68.225.134]) by vtg-um-e2k4.sj21ad.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Tue, 1 Mar 2005 18:23:47 -0800 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.1.0.040913 Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 18:23:42 -0800 Subject: Re: [nmrg] another possible subject for the nmrg workshop on voip management From: Cullen Jennings To: Margaret Wasserman , "Romascanu, Dan (Dan)" , , , , , Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Mar 2005 02:23:47.0554 (UTC) FILETIME=[DD57C420:01C51ECE] X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: 0.001 () BAYES_50 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 03 Mar 2005 17:48:03 +0100 Cc: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2005 02:23:56 -0000 I don't believe that voice and data necessarily need separate management protocols. I think VoIP is just an application on an IP network. However, the expectation around management around voice is very high. Do you know that nearly 100% of users can plug in an analog phone to a RJ11 jack and have it work with no calls to tech support. Voice providers can trace back and tel you exactly where problems happened. Now consider the IP network at many companies is largely "managed" by perl scripts that screen scrape IOS commands lines. My point is 1) the expectation for voice are higher than data is today 2) the state of deployed IP management leaves much to be desired. On 2/23/05 4:55 AM, "Margaret Wasserman" wrote: > Personally, I think that this is a really interesting question... > > Put another way, does VOIP infrastructure really differ enough from > IP infrastructure that they need their own configuration protocols? > If so, what is different about it that makes network configuration > protocols inadequate? Could we modify/extend existing network > configuration protocols to make them more useful for VOIP?