Received: from smtp.utwente.nl ([IPv6:2001:610:1908:1000:204:23ff:feb7:ef56]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.2) with ESMTP id k5SFNkoZ030880 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:23:47 +0200 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (utip250.ewi.utwente.nl [130.89.12.39]) by smtp.utwente.nl (8.12.10/SuSE Linux 0.7) with ESMTP id k5SFNgxv029001 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:23:44 +0200 Message-ID: <44A29EFE.1000502@utwente.nl> Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:23:42 +0200 From: Aiko Pras User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Subject: Re: [nmrg] Re: Next NMRG meeting References: <44A23363.3080701@utwente.nl> <20060628151632.GB1245@boskop.local> In-Reply-To: <20060628151632.GB1245@boskop.local> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UTwente-MailScanner-Information: Scanned by MailScanner. Contact helpdesk@ITBE.utwente.nl for more information. X-UTwente-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-UTwente-MailScanner-From: a.pras@utwente.nl X-Spam-Status: No X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 15:23:47 -0000 Juergen Schoenwaelder wrote: > Please let me know if you have any comments on the planned meeting. Looks interesting to me ;-) I'll try to follow via the Internet. Aiko Received: from hermes.iu-bremen.de (hermes.iu-bremen.de [212.201.44.23]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.2) with ESMTP id k5SFGdoY029957 for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:16:39 +0200 Received: from localhost (demetrius.iu-bremen.de [212.201.44.32]) by hermes.iu-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id D17934D2C7; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:16:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: from hermes.iu-bremen.de ([212.201.44.23]) by localhost (demetrius.iu-bremen.de [212.201.44.32]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 11313-09; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:16:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: from boskop.local (unknown [10.50.250.214]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hermes.iu-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id C808B5605D; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:16:34 +0200 (CEST) Received: by boskop.local (Postfix, from userid 501) id 00A937797FE; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:16:32 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:16:32 +0200 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Message-ID: <20060628151632.GB1245@boskop.local> Mail-Followup-To: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de, Aiko Pras References: <44A23363.3080701@utwente.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <44A23363.3080701@utwente.nl> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.10i X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new 2.3.3 (20050822) at iu-bremen.de X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: -4.9 () BAYES_00 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Cc: Aiko Pras Subject: [nmrg] Re: Next NMRG meeting X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: j.schoenwaelder@iu-bremen.de List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 15:16:41 -0000 On Wed, Jun 28, 2006 at 09:44:35AM +0200, Aiko Pras wrote: > As opposed to my previous email on the list, I decided not to attend the > IETF-NMRG meeting in Montreal. I've been traveling too much this year; > it is time to do some work ;-) Since Aiko won't make it to Montreal and we are not able to carry one of our graduate students to Montreal either, I will have to do more presentations myself. I discussed with Aiko the consequences and we came up with the following updated agenda proposal: Monday July 10, 2006, Room 519A: 17:40 Administrivia Chair(s) 17:45 NMRG Status Report '2006 Juergen Schoenwaelder 18:00 SNMP Traffic Measurements Overview Juergen Schoenwaelder 18:20 Initial Results Juergen Schoenwaelder 18:40 Discussion of Measurement Activities Everybody 19:20 Future Work Everybody 19:40 Wrapup Chair(s) David Harrington is going to chair the meeting - thanks to you and the others who offered help. Since we expect to have some people walking in who do not follow the NMRG closely, I like to spend some 15 minutes at the beginning to give a status report what the NMRG has been doing in the past and how I believe how it works right now. I will then present the work that is going on (although not highly visible on the mailing list) to collect SNMP traces from production networks, to build tools to process them, and analyze the output generated. Afterwards, I will report first analysis results from some of the traces we already have. Next to general feedback on the work going on, one particular goal is also to get people excited who run production networks or who have good contacts to people who run production networks to help us achieve a wider coverage of different types of production networks. We are also interested to learn about new questions that might be answered by analyzing the traces and which are not yet covered in the measurement ID. Quite some discussion time has been allocated into the schedule for this. Before we wrap up, I also like to get input on potential future work items for the NMRG (and of course we also like new volunteers). One concrete topic is a workshop which has been proposed to organize together with a European project focusing on network and service management research where we like to identify and document the most important research challenges in this area to be tackled in the next 5 years or so. Please let me know if you have any comments on the planned meeting or if you feel you need to have some time allocated in the schedule. /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder International University Bremen P.O. Box 750 561, 28725 Bremen, Germany Received: from smtp.utwente.nl ([IPv6:2001:610:1908:1000:204:23ff:feb7:ef56]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.2) with ESMTP id k5S7inJI005928 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 09:44:49 +0200 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (utip250.ewi.utwente.nl [130.89.12.39]) by smtp.utwente.nl (8.12.10/SuSE Linux 0.7) with ESMTP id k5S7iZxv012706; Wed, 28 Jun 2006 09:44:47 +0200 Message-ID: <44A23363.3080701@utwente.nl> Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 09:44:35 +0200 From: Aiko Pras User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Windows/20060516) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de" , Juergen Schoenwaelder Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-UTwente-MailScanner-Information: Scanned by MailScanner. Contact helpdesk@ITBE.utwente.nl for more information. X-UTwente-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-UTwente-MailScanner-From: a.pras@utwente.nl X-Spam-Status: No Cc: Subject: [nmrg] Next NMRG meeting X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 07:44:50 -0000 Hi As opposed to my previous email on the list, I decided not to attend the IETF-NMRG meeting in Montreal. I've been traveling too much this year; it is time to do some work ;-) Bye Aiko Received: from sccrmhc12.comcast.net (sccrmhc12.comcast.net [204.127.200.82]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.2) with ESMTP id k5RF6NJH016440 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:06:24 +0200 Received: from harrington73653 (c-24-128-147-200.hsd1.nh.comcast.net[24.128.147.200]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc12) with SMTP id <2006062715062301200t1spte>; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 15:06:23 +0000 From: "David B Harrington" To: "'Romascanu, Dan \(Dan\)'" , Subject: RE: [nmrg] IETF66 meeting Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:05:10 -0400 Message-ID: <023001c699fb$15b5b9f0$0400a8c0@china.huawei.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Thread-index: AcaZ8XgHOOT/XxpWTriF1ZkRwtmxzQACFRIgAAA43jA= In-Reply-To: X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: 1.592 (*) BAYES_60 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Cc: X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 15:06:25 -0000 Humph! I don't know what page I was looking at before or whether I was searching the wrong way, but somehow I missed it. Oh well. Thanks, dbh > -----Original Message----- > From: Romascanu, Dan (Dan) [mailto:dromasca@avaya.com] > Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2006 10:57 AM > To: David B Harrington; nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de > Subject: RE: [nmrg] IETF66 meeting > > What agenda are you looking at? I see nmrg scheduled for > Monday evening > (last two sessions) at > https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/meeting_agenda_html.cgi?me > eting_num= > 66. > > Regards, > > Dan > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: nmrg-bounces@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de > > [mailto:nmrg-bounces@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de] On Behalf Of David B > Harrington > > Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2006 4:57 PM > > To: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de > > Subject: [nmrg] IETF66 meeting > > > > Hi, > > > > I didn't find nmrg on the final ietf66 agenda. Did it get bumped? > > > > David Harrington > > dharrington@huawei.com > > dbharrington@comcast.net > > ietfdbh@comcast.net > > > > -- > > !! This message is brought to you via the `nmrg' mailing list. > > !! Please do not reply to this message to unsubscribe. To > > unsubscribe or adjust !! your settings, send a mail message > > to !! or look at > > http://agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nmrg. > > > Received: from co300216-ier2.net.avaya.com (co300216-ier2.net.avaya.com [198.152.13.103]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.2) with ESMTP id k5REvEJI015052 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 16:57:16 +0200 Received: from IS0004AVEXU1.global.avaya.com (h135-64-105-51.avaya.com [135.64.105.51]) by co300216-ier2.net.avaya.com (Switch-3.1.8/Switch-3.1.7) with ESMTP id k5RErxWX022063 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 10:54:00 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6603.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: [nmrg] IETF66 meeting Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 17:57:11 +0300 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [nmrg] IETF66 meeting Thread-Index: AcaZ8XgHOOT/XxpWTriF1ZkRwtmxzQACFRIg From: "Romascanu, Dan \(Dan\)" To: "David B Harrington" , X-Scanner: InterScan AntiVirus for Sendmail X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: 2.255 (**) BAYES_70 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de id k5REvEJI015052 Cc: X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:57:18 -0000 What agenda are you looking at? I see nmrg scheduled for Monday evening (last two sessions) at https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/meeting_agenda_html.cgi?meeting_num= 66. Regards, Dan > -----Original Message----- > From: nmrg-bounces@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de > [mailto:nmrg-bounces@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de] On Behalf Of David B Harrington > Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2006 4:57 PM > To: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de > Subject: [nmrg] IETF66 meeting > > Hi, > > I didn't find nmrg on the final ietf66 agenda. Did it get bumped? > > David Harrington > dharrington@huawei.com > dbharrington@comcast.net > ietfdbh@comcast.net > > -- > !! This message is brought to you via the `nmrg' mailing list. > !! Please do not reply to this message to unsubscribe. To > unsubscribe or adjust !! your settings, send a mail message > to !! or look at > http://agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nmrg. > Received: from sccrmhc12.comcast.net (sccrmhc12.comcast.net [204.127.200.82]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.2) with ESMTP id k5RDwMJH008272 for ; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 15:58:23 +0200 Received: from harrington73653 (c-24-128-147-200.hsd1.nh.comcast.net[24.128.147.200]) by comcast.net (sccrmhc12) with SMTP id <2006062713582101200t3sahe>; Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:58:21 +0000 From: "David B Harrington" To: Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 09:57:07 -0400 Message-ID: <022501c699f1$9435f510$0400a8c0@china.huawei.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Thread-index: AcaZ8XgHOOT/XxpWTriF1ZkRwtmxzQ== X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: 2.101 (**) BAYES_90 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Subject: [nmrg] IETF66 meeting X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:58:24 -0000 Hi, I didn't find nmrg on the final ietf66 agenda. Did it get bumped? David Harrington dharrington@huawei.com dbharrington@comcast.net ietfdbh@comcast.net Received: from nj300815-ier2.net.avaya.com (nj300815-ier2.net.avaya.com [198.152.12.103]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.2) with ESMTP id k5J6WjTP020473 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 08:32:46 +0200 Received: from IS0004AVEXU1.global.avaya.com (h135-64-105-51.avaya.com [135.64.105.51]) by nj300815-ier2.net.avaya.com (Switch-3.1.8/Switch-3.1.7) with ESMTP id k5J6T12A029556 for ; Mon, 19 Jun 2006 02:29:01 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6603.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C6936A.2B0189D4" Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 09:32:42 +0300 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: I-D ACTION:draft-harrington-text-mib-doc-template-00.txt Thread-Index: AcaRfl2pa6lRJjeaQfiZAeudUuMdfAB672FQ From: "Romascanu, Dan \(Dan\)" To: , "Ops-Nm \(E-mail\)" , X-Scanner: InterScan AntiVirus for Sendmail X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: 0.001 () BAYES_50 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Cc: Subject: [nmrg] FW: I-D ACTION:draft-harrington-text-mib-doc-template-00.txt X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 06:32:47 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6936A.2B0189D4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org [mailto:Internet-Drafts@ietf.org]=20 Sent: Friday, June 16, 2006 10:50 PM To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-harrington-text-mib-doc-template-00.txt=20 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. Title : A Template for Documents Containing a MIB Module Author(s) : D. Harrington Filename : draft-harrington-text-mib-doc-template-00.txt Pages : 10 Date : 2006-6-16 =09 This memo defines a portion of the Management Information Base (MIB) for use with network management protocols. In particular it defines objects for managing [TODO]. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-harrington-text-mib-doc-templa te-00.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. =20 You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-harrington-text-mib-doc-template-00.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-harrington-text-mib-doc-template-00.txt". =09 NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. =09 =09 Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6936A.2B0189D4 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="ATT895148.TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Description: ATT895148.TXT Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="ATT895148.TXT" Q29udGVudC1UeXBlOiBNZXNzYWdlL0V4dGVybmFsLWJvZHk7IGFjY2Vzcy10eXBlPSJtYWlsLXNl cnZlciI7DQoJc2VydmVyPSJtYWlsc2VydkBpZXRmLm9yZyINCg0KQ29udGVudC1UeXBlOiB0ZXh0 L3BsYWluDQpDb250ZW50LUlEOiA8MjAwNi02LTE2MTQ0MDQzLkktREBpZXRmLm9yZz4NCg0KRU5D T0RJTkcgbWltZQ0KRklMRSAvaW50ZXJuZXQtZHJhZnRzL2RyYWZ0LWhhcnJpbmd0b24tdGV4dC1t aWItZG9jLXRlbXBsYXRlLTAwLnR4dA0K ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6936A.2B0189D4 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="draft-harrington-text-mib-doc-template-00.URL" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Description: draft-harrington-text-mib-doc-template-00.URL Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="draft-harrington-text-mib-doc-template-00.URL" W0ludGVybmV0U2hvcnRjdXRdDQpVUkw9ZnRwOi8vZnRwLmlldGYub3JnL2ludGVybmV0LWRyYWZ0 cy9kcmFmdC1oYXJyaW5ndG9uLXRleHQtbWliLWRvYy10ZW1wbGF0ZS0wMC50eHQNCg== ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6936A.2B0189D4 Content-Type: text/plain; name="ATT895149.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Description: ATT895149.txt Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="ATT895149.txt" X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCkktRC1Bbm5v dW5jZSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCkktRC1Bbm5vdW5jZUBpZXRmLm9yZw0KaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cxLmll dGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vaS1kLWFubm91bmNlDQo= ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6936A.2B0189D4-- Received: from frankfurt.wu-wien.ac.at (frankfurt.wu-wien.ac.at [137.208.226.42]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.2) with ESMTP id k5IKJTrI004712 for ; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 22:19:29 +0200 Received: from [137.208.224.169] (abt-wi-010.wu-wien.ac.at [137.208.224.169]) by frankfurt.wu-wien.ac.at (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BC5E5B04AE; Sun, 18 Jun 2006 22:19:29 +0200 (CEST) In-Reply-To: <449463E1.6070600@cisco.com> References: <449463E1.6070600@cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v750) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <5DBE6FD2-5A75-4D67-B33E-DF0484C50274@wu-wien.ac.at> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Michael Alexander Subject: Re: [nmrg] IESG thoughts on network management Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 22:19:26 +0200 To: Benoit Claise X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.750) X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Cc: Margaret Wasserman , "'Wijnen, Bert \(Bert\)'" , "David T. Perkins" , "'J.P. Martin-Flatin'" , nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 20:19:31 -0000 that makes a lot of sense since it would emphasize in the first place which objects are managed and the underlying data model/framework. The access method (i.e. the protocol) MAY be listed. The protocol would therefore not continue to serve as the shortcut around describing managability in a structured way. - Michael On 17.06.2006, at 22:19, Benoit Claise wrote: > David, All, >> HI, >> >> Very interesting thread, with many sub issues, so here goes: >> >> 1) There was a lot of terminology used in the IESG report >> that I wasn't quite sure of the meaning. Dan - can you >> provide a few short descriptions. >> 2) I looked at JP's paper. Note that it was published >> in 1999. Many of the issues remain. However, it could >> be republished today with AJAX instead of applets, >> and use XML to transport management info. The result >> would be timely. There are parts that I agree with, >> and others I don't, but maybe JP and I should have >> a private conversation. >> 3) On modelling, I've been singing the same tune for >> many years. At the highest level, management is all >> about deciding what you want done, configuring the >> system to do it, monitoring the system to make sure >> you are getting done what you wanted, and, if needed, >> changing the system configuration to better match >> what you wanted done. To accompish management >> (again at a high level), the following management >> operations are performed: create and delete instances >> of management info, performance management actions, >> retrieve values of management information, and >> asynch report events. Different management protocols >> have different specific ways that operations are >> performed and management information is described. >> For example, in SNMP, there is no explicit "perform >> action" operation. However, "action operations" are >> supported by SNMP by "clever" definitions of >> management info using the limited operations >> in SNMP. Creating those clever definitions, >> or reading someone else's and getting back to >> the action are preety easy tasks for "MIB >> experts", but not for casual SNMP users. >> Skipping a few steps in this example to get >> to the point... All management protocols that I've >> seen have their strenghts and weaknesses. But >> all must address the high level uses of >> management. >> 4) This is sort of a . >> The data types in SNMP's SMI have been stalled since >> the early 90's. Please, lets' add "unsignedInt64", >> "signedInt64", "Float and Double (using IEEE encoding >> and semantics, NOT ASN.1 encoding and semantics)", >> and "discriminated unions". I believe that this >> has been one of the top reasons why people don't >> want to using SNMP's SMI for data modelling. >> Another top reason is the limitations in the >> identification of instances (translated - indexing), >> and in describing in programmic way the relationships >> between instances. >> 5) Another theme I've been singing for many years is >> the need for a team in developing management solutions. >> That is, it is "crazy talk" or maybe "crazy think" to >> believe that one person knows 1) the technology, >> 2) how the technology is used (and how it fails) >> in deployments, 3) how to efficiently and cost >> effectively manage devices containing the technology >> (this means design and write code for "management apps" >> and "instrumentation"). The result that I've seen >> is that different standards groups are dominated >> by different sorts of experts, and they like to >> use management protocols and schemas for management >> info that matches their area of background (and bias). >> > Good point. This is the same situation on the customer sides: the > guys deploying the technology are not the ones managing it. > I've always been wondering why we had to wait for so long for the > MPLS MIBs, long after the MPLS protocol design. Maybe that's the > reason? > My point is that manageability is most of the time an after-thought. > > What about this simple solution? Add a compulsory "Manageability > Considerations" section in any IETF draft. > Note: I remember that this idea was discussed a couple of years ago > on one of the IETF mailing list... > Let me take an analogy. I'm certainly not a security expert, but > for each of my draft, I have either to investigate the security > aspects, or get security experts to bring their experience in the > draft. The "Manageability Considerations" should work the same. > Possible options are: > - manageability is done via X and Y > - no management because .... (there is maybe a reason why IP > phone are not managed via SNMP, to come back to Dan's example) > - management defined in draft/RFC ... > - monitoring is required but configuration is not. > - etc... > > Now, imposing a protocol and a data model in this section is a > different story. > However, if protocol designers would think (a little bit) of > management (fault, configuration, accounting, performance) at the > design time, that would be an achievement already IMHO. > > Regards, Benoit. > >> I'm stopping now. This message is already too long. >> >> Enjoy, >> /david t. perkins >> >> On Mon, 12 Jun 2006, Margaret Wasserman wrote: >> >>> Hi Bert, >>> >>> >>>> I agree that a mixture of protocols for management on a >>>> single device easily starts to look like a spagetthi bowl and >>>> may make (even rudimentary) management if the device >>>> difficult/problematic. >>>> >>>> At the other hand, if a WG is not interested and does not do >>>> a good job at designing a MIB module, then that is not >>>> helpfull either. So... what do you propose? >>>> >>> I do not hold the view that "There must be only one". However, I >>> don't >>> consider "Let a thousand flowers bloom" to be the only alternative. >>> >>> If there is no one protocol that will meet the requirements of >>> both protocol >>> designers and operators/administrators, then I think that we need >>> to have >>> more than one. And, in fact, we already have more than one. I >>> also think >>> we need to understand _why_ we have more than one management >>> protocol into >>> the IETF protocol suite and have some coherent idea of where and >>> when each >>> management protocol will be used. Ideally, we would also >>> understand how to >>> access (some of?) the same management information using different >>> protocols, >>> as appropriate based on the role and purpose of each protocol. >>> >>> I am confused by the way the IESG's conclusion ties together data >>> modeling >>> and the choice of management protocol. I'm concerned we'll get >>> into a >>> situation where the "best" data modeling language for a given >>> protocol will >>> simply be the language with which the authors are most familiar >>> or the one >>> they'd most like to learn, and that little or no thought will be >>> given to >>> how the complete system (consisting of this protocol and several >>> related >>> protocols) will be managed. I consider choosing how a protocol >>> will be >>> managed based on which data modeling language is most convenient >>> to be the >>> opposite of designing a system for manageability. >>> >>> If I had to choose my Nirvana, it wouldn't be that everyone in >>> the IETF >>> would use whatever data modeling language and management protocol >>> they >>> preferred, it would be finding a way to define our information >>> models in a >>> more management-protocol-agnostic fashion (hopefully earlier in >>> the protocol >>> definition process) and being able to map that model (in as >>> deterministic a >>> way as possible) onto the various data models for the various >>> management >>> protocols. >>> >>> I'm not sure what it would mean to shift from "management by >>> SNMP" to >>> "design for manageability", nor do I understand what the IESG >>> meant when >>> they said that SNMP is "stuck on a single vertical model", so >>> there may be >>> parts of the IESG's conclusions that I am failing to understand >>> properly. >>> Dan, could you offer a bit more insight into what problems the >>> IESG was >>> trying to solve and what you intend to change (if anything) based >>> on these >>> conclusions? >>> >>> Margaret >>> >>> >> > > -- > !! This message is brought to you via the `nmrg' mailing list. > !! Please do not reply to this message to unsubscribe. To > unsubscribe or adjust > !! your settings, send a mail message to bs.de> > !! or look at http://agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de/cgi-bin/mailman/ > listinfo/nmrg. 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Thread-Index: raJnPIHhROGH09FVBsF3IIYw0gF4oF== From: "Sadie" To: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Return-Path: schoenw@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-MDAV-Processed: ibr.cs.tu-bs.de, Sun, 18 Jun 2006 10:09:31 +0300 X-Spam: Not detected X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: 3.957 (***) BAYES_70, HTML_FONTCOLOR_UNKNOWN, HTML_MESSAGE, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO, UPPERCASE_25_50 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Subject: [nmrg] Save your budget, powerful medicine for a low price. 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Perkins" Subject: Re: [nmrg] IESG thoughts on network management References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------010601080302050904000706" X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: 0.846 () DATE_IN_PAST_12_24,HTML_MESSAGE X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 22:04:32 +0200 Cc: Margaret Wasserman , "'Wijnen, Bert \(Bert\)'" , "'J.P. Martin-Flatin'" , nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 13:13:49 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------010601080302050904000706 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David, All, > HI, > > Very interesting thread, with many sub issues, so here goes: > > 1) There was a lot of terminology used in the IESG report > that I wasn't quite sure of the meaning. Dan - can you > provide a few short descriptions. > 2) I looked at JP's paper. Note that it was published > in 1999. Many of the issues remain. However, it could > be republished today with AJAX instead of applets, > and use XML to transport management info. The result > would be timely. There are parts that I agree with, > and others I don't, but maybe JP and I should have > a private conversation. > 3) On modelling, I've been singing the same tune for > many years. At the highest level, management is all > about deciding what you want done, configuring the > system to do it, monitoring the system to make sure > you are getting done what you wanted, and, if needed, > changing the system configuration to better match > what you wanted done. To accompish management > (again at a high level), the following management > operations are performed: create and delete instances > of management info, performance management actions, > retrieve values of management information, and > asynch report events. Different management protocols > have different specific ways that operations are > performed and management information is described. > For example, in SNMP, there is no explicit "perform > action" operation. However, "action operations" are > supported by SNMP by "clever" definitions of > management info using the limited operations > in SNMP. Creating those clever definitions, > or reading someone else's and getting back to > the action are preety easy tasks for "MIB > experts", but not for casual SNMP users. > Skipping a few steps in this example to get > to the point... All management protocols that I've > seen have their strenghts and weaknesses. But > all must address the high level uses of > management. > 4) This is sort of a . > The data types in SNMP's SMI have been stalled since > the early 90's. Please, lets' add "unsignedInt64", > "signedInt64", "Float and Double (using IEEE encoding > and semantics, NOT ASN.1 encoding and semantics)", > and "discriminated unions". I believe that this > has been one of the top reasons why people don't > want to using SNMP's SMI for data modelling. > Another top reason is the limitations in the > identification of instances (translated - indexing), > and in describing in programmic way the relationships > between instances. > 5) Another theme I've been singing for many years is > the need for a team in developing management solutions. > That is, it is "crazy talk" or maybe "crazy think" to > believe that one person knows 1) the technology, > 2) how the technology is used (and how it fails) > in deployments, 3) how to efficiently and cost > effectively manage devices containing the technology > (this means design and write code for "management apps" > and "instrumentation"). The result that I've seen > is that different standards groups are dominated > by different sorts of experts, and they like to > use management protocols and schemas for management > info that matches their area of background (and bias). > Good point. This is the same situation on the customer sides: the guys deploying the technology are not the ones managing it. I've always been wondering why we had to wait for so long for the MPLS MIBs, long after the MPLS protocol design. Maybe that's the reason? My point is that manageability is most of the time an after-thought. What about this simple solution? Add a compulsory "Manageability Considerations" section in any IETF draft. Note: I remember that this idea was discussed a couple of years ago on one of the IETF mailing list... Let me take an analogy. I'm certainly not a security expert, but for each of my draft, I have either to investigate the security aspects, or get security experts to bring their experience in the draft. The "Manageability Considerations" should work the same. Possible options are: - manageability is done via X and Y - no management because .... (there is maybe a reason why IP phone are not managed via SNMP, to come back to Dan's example) - management defined in draft/RFC ... - monitoring is required but configuration is not. - etc... Now, imposing a protocol and a data model in this section is a different story. However, if protocol designers would think (a little bit) of management (fault, configuration, accounting, performance) at the design time, that would be an achievement already IMHO. Regards, Benoit. > I'm stopping now. This message is already too long. > > Enjoy, > /david t. perkins > > On Mon, 12 Jun 2006, Margaret Wasserman wrote: > >> Hi Bert, >> >> >>> I agree that a mixture of protocols for management on a >>> single device easily starts to look like a spagetthi bowl and >>> may make (even rudimentary) management if the device >>> difficult/problematic. >>> >>> At the other hand, if a WG is not interested and does not do >>> a good job at designing a MIB module, then that is not >>> helpfull either. So... what do you propose? >>> >> I do not hold the view that "There must be only one". However, I don't >> consider "Let a thousand flowers bloom" to be the only alternative. >> >> If there is no one protocol that will meet the requirements of both protocol >> designers and operators/administrators, then I think that we need to have >> more than one. And, in fact, we already have more than one. I also think >> we need to understand _why_ we have more than one management protocol into >> the IETF protocol suite and have some coherent idea of where and when each >> management protocol will be used. Ideally, we would also understand how to >> access (some of?) the same management information using different protocols, >> as appropriate based on the role and purpose of each protocol. >> >> I am confused by the way the IESG's conclusion ties together data modeling >> and the choice of management protocol. I'm concerned we'll get into a >> situation where the "best" data modeling language for a given protocol will >> simply be the language with which the authors are most familiar or the one >> they'd most like to learn, and that little or no thought will be given to >> how the complete system (consisting of this protocol and several related >> protocols) will be managed. I consider choosing how a protocol will be >> managed based on which data modeling language is most convenient to be the >> opposite of designing a system for manageability. >> >> If I had to choose my Nirvana, it wouldn't be that everyone in the IETF >> would use whatever data modeling language and management protocol they >> preferred, it would be finding a way to define our information models in a >> more management-protocol-agnostic fashion (hopefully earlier in the protocol >> definition process) and being able to map that model (in as deterministic a >> way as possible) onto the various data models for the various management >> protocols. >> >> I'm not sure what it would mean to shift from "management by SNMP" to >> "design for manageability", nor do I understand what the IESG meant when >> they said that SNMP is "stuck on a single vertical model", so there may be >> parts of the IESG's conclusions that I am failing to understand properly. >> Dan, could you offer a bit more insight into what problems the IESG was >> trying to solve and what you intend to change (if anything) based on these >> conclusions? >> >> Margaret >> >> > > --------------010601080302050904000706 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David, All,
HI,

Very interesting thread, with many sub issues, so here goes:

1) There was a lot of terminology used in the IESG report
   that I wasn't quite sure of the meaning. Dan - can you
   provide a few short descriptions.
2) I looked at JP's paper. Note that it was published
   in 1999. Many of the issues remain. However, it could
   be republished today with AJAX instead of applets,
   and use XML to transport management info. The result
   would be timely. There are parts that I agree with,
   and others I don't, but maybe JP and I should have
   a private conversation.
3) On modelling, I've been singing the same tune for
   many years. At the highest level, management is all
   about deciding what you want done, configuring the
   system to do it, monitoring the system to make sure
   you are getting done what you wanted, and, if needed,
   changing the system configuration to better match
   what you wanted done. To accompish management
   (again at a high level), the following management
   operations are performed: create and delete instances
   of management info, performance management actions,
   retrieve values of management information, and
   asynch report events. Different management protocols
   have different specific ways that operations are
   performed and management information is described.
   For example, in SNMP, there is no explicit "perform
   action" operation. However, "action operations" are
   supported by SNMP by "clever" definitions of
   management info using the limited operations
   in SNMP. Creating those clever definitions,
   or reading someone else's and getting back to
   the action are preety easy tasks for "MIB
   experts", but not for casual SNMP users.
   Skipping a few steps in this example to get
   to the point... All management protocols that I've
   seen have their strenghts and weaknesses. But
   all must address the high level uses of
   management.
4) This is sort of a <rant>.
   The data types in SNMP's SMI have been stalled since
   the early 90's. Please, lets' add "unsignedInt64",
   "signedInt64", "Float and Double (using IEEE encoding
   and semantics, NOT ASN.1 encoding and semantics)",
   and "discriminated unions". I believe that this
   has been one of the top reasons why people don't
   want to using SNMP's SMI for data modelling.
   Another top reason is the limitations in the
   identification of instances (translated - indexing),
   and in describing in programmic way the relationships
   between instances. </rant>
5) Another theme I've been singing for many years is
   the need for a team in developing management solutions.
   That is, it is "crazy talk" or maybe "crazy think" to
   believe that one person knows 1) the technology,
   2) how the technology is used (and how it fails)
   in deployments, 3) how to efficiently and cost
   effectively manage devices containing the technology
   (this means design and write code for "management apps"
   and "instrumentation"). The result that I've seen
   is that different standards groups are dominated
   by different sorts of experts, and they like to
   use management protocols and schemas for management
   info that matches their area of background (and bias).
Good point. This is the same situation on the customer sides: the guys deploying the technology are not the ones managing it.
I've always been wondering why we had to wait for so long for the MPLS MIBs, long after the MPLS protocol design. Maybe that's the reason?
My point is that manageability is most of the time an after-thought.

What about this simple solution? Add a compulsory "Manageability Considerations" section in any IETF draft.
Note: I remember that this idea was discussed a couple of years ago on one of the IETF mailing list...
Let me take an analogy. I'm certainly not a security expert, but for each of my draft, I have either to investigate the security aspects, or get security experts to bring their experience in the draft. The "Manageability Considerations" should work the same.
Possible options are:
    - manageability is done via X and Y
    - no management because .... (there is maybe a reason why IP phone are not managed via SNMP, to come back to Dan's example)
    - management defined in draft/RFC ...
    - monitoring is required but configuration is not.
    - etc...

Now, imposing a protocol and a data model in this section is a different story.
However, if protocol designers would think (a little bit) of management (fault, configuration, accounting, performance) at the design time, that would be an achievement already IMHO.

Regards, Benoit.

I'm stopping now. This message is already too long. 

Enjoy,
/david t. perkins    

On Mon, 12 Jun 2006, Margaret Wasserman wrote:
  
Hi Bert,

    
I agree that a mixture of protocols for management on a 
single device easily starts to look like a spagetthi bowl and 
may make (even rudimentary) management if the device 
difficult/problematic.

At the other hand, if a WG is not interested and does not do 
a good job at designing a MIB module, then that is not 
helpfull either. So... what do you propose? 
      
I do not hold the view that "There must be only one".  However, I don't
consider "Let a thousand flowers bloom" to be the only alternative.

If there is no one protocol that will meet the requirements of both protocol
designers and operators/administrators, then I think that we need to have
more than one.  And, in fact, we already have more than one.  I also think
we need to understand _why_ we have more than one management protocol into
the IETF protocol suite and have some coherent idea of where and when each
management protocol will be used.  Ideally, we would also understand how to
access (some of?) the same management information using different protocols,
as appropriate based on the role and purpose of each protocol.

I am confused by the way the IESG's conclusion ties together data modeling
and the choice of management protocol.  I'm concerned we'll get into a
situation where the "best" data modeling language for a given protocol will
simply be the language with which the authors are most familiar or the one
they'd most like to learn, and that little or no thought will be given to
how the complete system (consisting of this protocol and several related
protocols) will be managed.  I consider choosing how a protocol will be
managed based on which data modeling language is most convenient to be the
opposite of designing a system for manageability.

If I had to choose my Nirvana, it wouldn't be that everyone in the IETF
would use whatever data modeling language and management protocol they
preferred, it would be finding a way to define our information models in a
more management-protocol-agnostic fashion (hopefully earlier in the protocol
definition process) and being able to map that model (in as deterministic a
way as possible) onto the various data models for the various management
protocols.

I'm not sure what it would mean to shift from "management by SNMP" to
"design for manageability", nor do I understand what the IESG meant when
they said that SNMP is "stuck on a single vertical model", so there may be
parts of the IESG's conclusions that I am failing to understand properly.
Dan, could you offer a bit more insight into what problems the IESG was
trying to solve and what you intend to change (if anything) based on these
conclusions?

Margaret

--------------010601080302050904000706-- Received: from mtagate4.uk.ibm.com (mtagate4.uk.ibm.com [195.212.29.137]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.2) with ESMTP id k5EDNMG5020184 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL) for ; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 15:23:22 +0200 Received: from d06nrmr1407.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (d06nrmr1407.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com [9.149.38.185]) by mtagate4.uk.ibm.com (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k5EDNLi7184702 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 13:23:22 GMT Received: from d06av03.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (d06av03.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com [9.149.37.213]) by d06nrmr1407.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (8.13.6/NCO/VER7.0) with ESMTP id k5EDOZti113256 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 14:24:35 +0100 Received: from d06av03.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d06av03.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.13.3) with ESMTP id k5EDNKaL012319 for ; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 14:23:20 +0100 Received: from sihl.zurich.ibm.com (sihl.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.16.232]) by d06av03.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k5EDNKfs012303; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 14:23:20 +0100 Received: from zurich.ibm.com (sig-9-145-254-161.de.ibm.com [9.145.254.161]) by sihl.zurich.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA43840; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 15:23:11 +0200 Message-ID: <449009E6.7010902@zurich.ibm.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 15:06:46 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: IBM User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en, fr, de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "J.P. Martin-Flatin" Subject: Re: [nmrg] Re: Notes from IESG Retreat held in May References: <448FFF5F.6090008@ieee.org> In-Reply-To: <448FFF5F.6090008@ieee.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: -0.001 () BAYES_44 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 13:58:17 +0200 Cc: "Romascanu, Dan \(Dan\)" , nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 13:23:24 -0000 Fixed. The web page concerned is updated by a real push model, so it may be an hour or two before the update appears. Brian J.P. Martin-Flatin wrote: > Fine with me > > JP > > On 13.06.2006 11:45, Romascanu, Dan (Dan) wrote: > >> So the clarification that is needed would be: >> >> OLD: >> - very much based on one 'push' model protocol >> >> NEW: >> - very much based on one 'push' model protocol in what concerns >> configuration management operations >> >> Brian, if this change is confirmed by JP would a correction be possible, >> for a more accurate record? >> Dan >> >> >> >> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: J.P. Martin-Flatin [mailto:jp.martin-flatin@ieee.org] Sent: >>> Tuesday, June 13, 2006 12:05 PM >>> To: Romascanu, Dan (Dan) >>> Cc: Brian Carpenter; nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de >>> Subject: Re: [nmrg] Re: Notes from IESG Retreat held in May >>> >>> Hi Dan, >>> >>> There seems to be quite a difference between what you say here and >>> what appears in the minutes of the IESG Retreat at: >>> >>> http://www.ietf.org/u/ietfchair/Spring06retreatNotes.txt >>> >>> I agree that network operators usually configure network devices by >>> pushing configurations to them. This pertains to configuration >>> management. >>> >>> I disagree that "the current management framework ... [is] very much >>> based on one 'push' model protocol", as stated in item 11, para 1, >>> because most of the time SNMP-based management platforms rely on >>> polling for transferring management data. Managers pull data (OIDs) >>> off agents, and agents rarely push data on their own. This pertains >>> to monitoring, not to configuration management. >>> >>> I suggest the minutes be updated. Item 11, para 1 should say >>> explicitly that you talk about configuration management here. >>> >>> JP >>> >>> >>> On 12.06.2006 16:41, Romascanu, Dan (Dan) wrote: >>> >>>> Hi JP, >>>> >>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nmrg-bounces@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de >>>>> [mailto:nmrg-bounces@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de] On Behalf Of J.P. >>> >>> Martin-Flatin >>> >>>>> Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 5:27 PM >>>>> To: Brian Carpenter >>>>> Cc: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de >>>>> Subject: [nmrg] Re: Notes from IESG Retreat held in May >>>>> >>>>> 1) Para 1, bullet 3: The current SNMP protocol is based on >>> >>> "pull" not >>> >>>>> "push". See my IM 1999 paper: >>>>> >>>>> http://www.labunix.uqam.ca/%7Ejpmf/papers/im99.pdf >>>> >>>> >>>> I was not aware about your paper, and still need to read it >>> >>> attentively. >>> >>>> The terminology that I am using is quite widely used (I >>> >>> believe) and >>> >>>> is looking at the management operations from the perspective of a >>>> network operator performing configuration operations on a network >>>> device. It seems that you were using an inverse convention >>> >>> in your paper. >>> >>>> Dan >> >> > Received: from mail15.bluewin.ch (mail15.bluewin.ch [195.186.18.63]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.2) with ESMTP id k5ECLwG4007082 for ; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 14:21:58 +0200 Received: from [192.168.1.2] (85.0.113.203) by mail15.bluewin.ch (Bluewin 7.3.110.2) id 44867996001B198D; Wed, 14 Jun 2006 12:21:55 +0000 Message-ID: <448FFF5F.6090008@ieee.org> Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 14:21:51 +0200 From: "J.P. Martin-Flatin" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8.0.4) Gecko/20060516 SeaMonkey/1.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Romascanu, Dan (Dan)" Subject: Re: [nmrg] Re: Notes from IESG Retreat held in May References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: -0.001 () BAYES_44 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Cc: Brian Carpenter , nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: "J.P. Martin-Flatin" List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 12:22:00 -0000 Fine with me JP On 13.06.2006 11:45, Romascanu, Dan (Dan) wrote: > So the clarification that is needed would be: > > OLD: > > - very much based on one 'push' model protocol > > NEW: > > - very much based on one 'push' model protocol in what concerns > configuration management operations > > Brian, if this change is confirmed by JP would a correction be possible, > for a more accurate record? > > Dan > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: J.P. Martin-Flatin [mailto:jp.martin-flatin@ieee.org] >> Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 12:05 PM >> To: Romascanu, Dan (Dan) >> Cc: Brian Carpenter; nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de >> Subject: Re: [nmrg] Re: Notes from IESG Retreat held in May >> >> Hi Dan, >> >> There seems to be quite a difference between what you say >> here and what appears in the minutes of the IESG Retreat at: >> >> http://www.ietf.org/u/ietfchair/Spring06retreatNotes.txt >> >> I agree that network operators usually configure network >> devices by pushing configurations to them. This pertains to >> configuration management. >> >> I disagree that "the current management framework ... [is] >> very much based on one 'push' model protocol", as stated in >> item 11, para 1, because most of the time SNMP-based >> management platforms rely on polling for transferring >> management data. Managers pull data (OIDs) off agents, and >> agents rarely push data on their own. This pertains to >> monitoring, not to configuration management. >> >> I suggest the minutes be updated. Item 11, para 1 should say >> explicitly that you talk about configuration management here. >> >> JP >> >> >> On 12.06.2006 16:41, Romascanu, Dan (Dan) wrote: >>> Hi JP, >>> >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nmrg-bounces@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de >>>> [mailto:nmrg-bounces@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de] On Behalf Of J.P. >> Martin-Flatin >>>> Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 5:27 PM >>>> To: Brian Carpenter >>>> Cc: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de >>>> Subject: [nmrg] Re: Notes from IESG Retreat held in May >>>> >>>> 1) Para 1, bullet 3: The current SNMP protocol is based on >> "pull" not >>>> "push". See my IM 1999 paper: >>>> >>>> http://www.labunix.uqam.ca/%7Ejpmf/papers/im99.pdf >>> >>> I was not aware about your paper, and still need to read it >> attentively. >>> The terminology that I am using is quite widely used (I >> believe) and >>> is looking at the management operations from the perspective of a >>> network operator performing configuration operations on a network >>> device. It seems that you were using an inverse convention >> in your paper. >>> Dan > Received: from mtagate6.uk.ibm.com (mtagate6.uk.ibm.com [195.212.29.139]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.2) with ESMTP id k5DDkd4r017116 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL) for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 15:46:39 +0200 Received: from d06nrmr1307.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (d06nrmr1307.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com [9.149.38.129]) by mtagate6.uk.ibm.com (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k5DDkbin104296 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 13:46:38 GMT Received: from d06av01.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (d06av01.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com [9.149.37.212]) by d06nrmr1307.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (8.13.6/NCO/VER7.0) with ESMTP id k5DDlpPT042654 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 14:47:51 +0100 Received: from d06av01.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d06av01.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.13.3) with ESMTP id k5DDkZmX010639 for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 14:46:36 +0100 Received: from sihl.zurich.ibm.com (sihl.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.16.232]) by d06av01.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k5DDkZt4010626; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 14:46:35 +0100 Received: from zurich.ibm.com (sig-9-145-253-252.de.ibm.com [9.145.253.252]) by sihl.zurich.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA37864; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 15:46:33 +0200 Message-ID: <448EC1B9.4060309@zurich.ibm.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 15:46:33 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: IBM User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en, fr, de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Romascanu, Dan \(Dan\)" Subject: Re: [nmrg] Re: Notes from IESG Retreat held in May References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: -0.001 () BAYES_44 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 14 Jun 2006 08:51:52 +0200 Cc: "J.P. Martin-Flatin" , nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 13:46:41 -0000 Sure. The notes are only notes, but I can easily update them. Brian Romascanu, Dan (Dan) wrote: > So the clarification that is needed would be: > > OLD: > > - very much based on one 'push' model protocol > > NEW: > > - very much based on one 'push' model protocol in what concerns > configuration management operations > > Brian, if this change is confirmed by JP would a correction be possible, > for a more accurate record? > > Dan > > > > > > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: J.P. Martin-Flatin [mailto:jp.martin-flatin@ieee.org] >>Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 12:05 PM >>To: Romascanu, Dan (Dan) >>Cc: Brian Carpenter; nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de >>Subject: Re: [nmrg] Re: Notes from IESG Retreat held in May >> >>Hi Dan, >> >>There seems to be quite a difference between what you say >>here and what appears in the minutes of the IESG Retreat at: >> >> http://www.ietf.org/u/ietfchair/Spring06retreatNotes.txt >> >>I agree that network operators usually configure network >>devices by pushing configurations to them. This pertains to >>configuration management. >> >>I disagree that "the current management framework ... [is] >>very much based on one 'push' model protocol", as stated in >>item 11, para 1, because most of the time SNMP-based >>management platforms rely on polling for transferring >>management data. Managers pull data (OIDs) off agents, and >>agents rarely push data on their own. This pertains to >>monitoring, not to configuration management. >> >>I suggest the minutes be updated. Item 11, para 1 should say >>explicitly that you talk about configuration management here. >> >>JP >> >> >>On 12.06.2006 16:41, Romascanu, Dan (Dan) wrote: >> >>>Hi JP, >>> >>> >>> >>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>From: nmrg-bounces@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de >>>>[mailto:nmrg-bounces@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de] On Behalf Of J.P. >> >>Martin-Flatin >> >>>>Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 5:27 PM >>>>To: Brian Carpenter >>>>Cc: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de >>>>Subject: [nmrg] Re: Notes from IESG Retreat held in May >>>> >>> >>>>1) Para 1, bullet 3: The current SNMP protocol is based on >> >>"pull" not >> >>>>"push". See my IM 1999 paper: >>>> >>>> http://www.labunix.uqam.ca/%7Ejpmf/papers/im99.pdf >>> >>> >>>I was not aware about your paper, and still need to read it >> >>attentively. >> >>>The terminology that I am using is quite widely used (I >> >>believe) and >> >>>is looking at the management operations from the perspective of a >>>network operator performing configuration operations on a network >>>device. It seems that you were using an inverse convention >> >>in your paper. >> >>>Dan >> > Received: from co300216-ier2.net.avaya.com (co300216-ier2.net.avaya.com [198.152.13.103]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.2) with ESMTP id k5DAKT4r009588 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 12:20:31 +0200 Received: from IS0004AVEXU1.global.avaya.com (h135-64-105-51.avaya.com [135.64.105.51]) by co300216-ier2.net.avaya.com (Switch-3.1.8/Switch-3.1.7) with ESMTP id k5DAHwUj001561 for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 06:17:59 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6603.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: [nmrg] Re: Notes from IESG Retreat held in May Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 13:20:26 +0300 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [nmrg] Re: Notes from IESG Retreat held in May Thread-Index: AcaO0H6xgU9ATR6vRf+c3eU/WvWZ7QAAaCxg From: "Romascanu, Dan \(Dan\)" To: "Eliot Lear" X-Scanner: InterScan AntiVirus for Sendmail X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: 0.001 () BAYES_50 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de id k5DAKT4r009588 Cc: "J.P. Martin-Flatin" , nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de, Brian Carpenter X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 10:20:32 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: Eliot Lear [mailto:lear@cisco.com] > Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 1:02 PM > To: Romascanu, Dan (Dan) > Cc: J.P. Martin-Flatin; Brian Carpenter; nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de > Subject: Re: [nmrg] Re: Notes from IESG Retreat held in May > > Dan, > > > So the clarification that is needed would be: > > > > OLD: > > > > - very much based on one 'push' model protocol > > > > NEW: > > > > - very much based on one 'push' model protocol in what concerns > > configuration management operations > > > > Brian, if this change is confirmed by JP would a correction be > > possible, for a more accurate record? > The most basic functions of network management are handled by > such protocols as DHCP and PPP on the front end with Radius > on the back end. > In no way could these mechanisms be considered "push". You > might say they're not configuration management operations but > then we're quibbling over terms, and I'd argue that if > they're not, it's because we actually know how to reliably > configure those objects from a management system. > But push/pull is a bad way to look at all of this. If a > manager wants to make a change with immediate effect, push is > needed. For scaling purposes in large environments, pull is > also needed. The connection model is far more critical than > push/pull. > > Eliot > I agree. What was meant to say is that the SNMP-based management framework is 'push' when it comes to protocol operations for configuration management. Brrrr .. Too many words. Is this wordsmithing that important? The message I believe it's clear - part of the world believes that the IETF management framework equals the SNMP-based management framework, and this is not true for all management operations and protocols in the IETF space, as in the examples that you gave. We need to accommodate reality, while building a management framework and a set of standards that will ensure interoperable management. Dan Received: from sj-iport-5.cisco.com (sj-iport-5.cisco.com [171.68.10.87]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.2) with ESMTP id k5DA2Y4q006849 for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 12:02:34 +0200 Received: from sj-dkim-2.cisco.com ([171.71.179.186]) by sj-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP; 13 Jun 2006 03:02:33 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.06,125,1149490800"; d="scan'208"; a="293696985:sNHT31078876" Received: from sj-core-1.cisco.com (sj-core-1.cisco.com [171.71.177.237]) by sj-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k5DA2XhA020042; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 03:02:33 -0700 Received: from imail.cisco.com (sjc12-sbr-sw3-3f5.cisco.com [172.19.96.182]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k5DA2W9s017420; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 03:02:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [144.254.23.234] (dhcp-data-vlan10-23-234.cisco.com [144.254.23.234]) by imail.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k5D9wMRN007565; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 02:58:23 -0700 Message-ID: <448E8D34.7080406@cisco.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 12:02:28 +0200 From: Eliot Lear User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Macintosh/20060530) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Romascanu, Dan \(Dan\)" Subject: Re: [nmrg] Re: Notes from IESG Retreat held in May References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-2.cisco.com; header.From=lear@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com verified; ); DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; l=1052; t=1150192953; x=1151056953; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim2001; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=lear@cisco.com; z=From:Eliot=20Lear=20 |Subject:Re=3A=20[nmrg]=20Re=3A=20Notes=20from=20IESG=20Retreat=20held=20in=20May; X=v=3Dcisco.com=3B=20h=3DaBoo9hLaOGJ7dfGUe26sT7YjgBw=3D; b=QJrOQj8Q+mOyEGeZ5TYeoCQhyTUbMwFJBuGnY7WAvZISoinxcUDJW5DbAAeHspe9/Jwr6SUL QsV+MgcW8vdNJpugzmXTnn72St/iN0XaWx8XL5xIs1q8P6E7PIpm+Q9Y; X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: -0.001 () BAYES_44 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Cc: "J.P. Martin-Flatin" , nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de, Brian Carpenter X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 10:02:36 -0000 Dan, > So the clarification that is needed would be: > > OLD: > > - very much based on one 'push' model protocol > > NEW: > > - very much based on one 'push' model protocol in what concerns > configuration management operations > > Brian, if this change is confirmed by JP would a correction be possible, > for a more accurate record? The most basic functions of network management are handled by such protocols as DHCP and PPP on the front end with Radius on the back end. In no way could these mechanisms be considered "push". You might say they're not configuration management operations but then we're quibbling over terms, and I'd argue that if they're not, it's because we actually know how to reliably configure those objects from a management system. But push/pull is a bad way to look at all of this. If a manager wants to make a change with immediate effect, push is needed. For scaling purposes in large environments, pull is also needed. The connection model is far more critical than push/pull. Eliot Received: from nj300815-ier2.net.avaya.com (nj300815-ier2.net.avaya.com [198.152.12.103]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.2) with ESMTP id k5D9ji4r003793 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 11:45:45 +0200 Received: from IS0004AVEXU1.global.avaya.com (h135-64-105-51.avaya.com [135.64.105.51]) by nj300815-ier2.net.avaya.com (Switch-3.1.8/Switch-3.1.7) with ESMTP id k5D9gOGu017725 for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 05:42:24 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6603.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: [nmrg] Re: Notes from IESG Retreat held in May Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 12:45:41 +0300 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [nmrg] Re: Notes from IESG Retreat held in May Thread-Index: AcaOyHQXf/RK8PujRO+IfX3ZNYTzugABV3Sw From: "Romascanu, Dan \(Dan\)" To: "J.P. Martin-Flatin" X-Scanner: InterScan AntiVirus for Sendmail X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: 0.001 () BAYES_50 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de id k5D9ji4r003793 Cc: Brian Carpenter , nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 09:45:47 -0000 So the clarification that is needed would be: OLD: - very much based on one 'push' model protocol NEW: - very much based on one 'push' model protocol in what concerns configuration management operations Brian, if this change is confirmed by JP would a correction be possible, for a more accurate record? Dan > -----Original Message----- > From: J.P. Martin-Flatin [mailto:jp.martin-flatin@ieee.org] > Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 12:05 PM > To: Romascanu, Dan (Dan) > Cc: Brian Carpenter; nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de > Subject: Re: [nmrg] Re: Notes from IESG Retreat held in May > > Hi Dan, > > There seems to be quite a difference between what you say > here and what appears in the minutes of the IESG Retreat at: > > http://www.ietf.org/u/ietfchair/Spring06retreatNotes.txt > > I agree that network operators usually configure network > devices by pushing configurations to them. This pertains to > configuration management. > > I disagree that "the current management framework ... [is] > very much based on one 'push' model protocol", as stated in > item 11, para 1, because most of the time SNMP-based > management platforms rely on polling for transferring > management data. Managers pull data (OIDs) off agents, and > agents rarely push data on their own. This pertains to > monitoring, not to configuration management. > > I suggest the minutes be updated. Item 11, para 1 should say > explicitly that you talk about configuration management here. > > JP > > > On 12.06.2006 16:41, Romascanu, Dan (Dan) wrote: > > Hi JP, > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: nmrg-bounces@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de > >> [mailto:nmrg-bounces@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de] On Behalf Of J.P. > Martin-Flatin > >> Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 5:27 PM > >> To: Brian Carpenter > >> Cc: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de > >> Subject: [nmrg] Re: Notes from IESG Retreat held in May > >> > > > >> 1) Para 1, bullet 3: The current SNMP protocol is based on > "pull" not > >> "push". See my IM 1999 paper: > >> > >> http://www.labunix.uqam.ca/%7Ejpmf/papers/im99.pdf > > > > > > I was not aware about your paper, and still need to read it > attentively. > > The terminology that I am using is quite widely used (I > believe) and > > is looking at the management operations from the perspective of a > > network operator performing configuration operations on a network > > device. It seems that you were using an inverse convention > in your paper. > > > > Dan > Received: from mail17.bluewin.ch (mail17.bluewin.ch [195.186.18.64]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.2) with ESMTP id k5D9524q029182 for ; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 11:05:02 +0200 Received: from [192.168.1.2] (62.202.53.142) by mail17.bluewin.ch (Bluewin 7.3.110.2) id 448687330015578C; Tue, 13 Jun 2006 09:04:58 +0000 Message-ID: <448E7FB9.20003@ieee.org> Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 11:04:57 +0200 From: "J.P. Martin-Flatin" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8.0.4) Gecko/20060516 SeaMonkey/1.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Romascanu, Dan (Dan)" Subject: Re: [nmrg] Re: Notes from IESG Retreat held in May References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: -0.908 () BAYES_10 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Cc: Brian Carpenter , nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: "J.P. Martin-Flatin" List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 09:05:03 -0000 Hi Dan, There seems to be quite a difference between what you say here and what appears in the minutes of the IESG Retreat at: http://www.ietf.org/u/ietfchair/Spring06retreatNotes.txt I agree that network operators usually configure network devices by pushing configurations to them. This pertains to configuration management. I disagree that "the current management framework ... [is] very much based on one 'push' model protocol", as stated in item 11, para 1, because most of the time SNMP-based management platforms rely on polling for transferring management data. Managers pull data (OIDs) off agents, and agents rarely push data on their own. This pertains to monitoring, not to configuration management. I suggest the minutes be updated. Item 11, para 1 should say explicitly that you talk about configuration management here. JP On 12.06.2006 16:41, Romascanu, Dan (Dan) wrote: > Hi JP, > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nmrg-bounces@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de >> [mailto:nmrg-bounces@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de] On Behalf Of J.P. Martin-Flatin >> Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 5:27 PM >> To: Brian Carpenter >> Cc: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de >> Subject: [nmrg] Re: Notes from IESG Retreat held in May >> > >> 1) Para 1, bullet 3: The current SNMP protocol is based on >> "pull" not "push". See my IM 1999 paper: >> >> http://www.labunix.uqam.ca/%7Ejpmf/papers/im99.pdf > > > I was not aware about your paper, and still need to read it attentively. > The terminology that I am using is quite widely used (I believe) and is > looking at the management operations from the perspective of a network > operator performing configuration operations on a network device. It > seems that you were using an inverse convention in your paper. > > Dan Received: from nj300815-ier2.net.avaya.com (nj300815-ier2.net.avaya.com [198.152.12.103]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.2) with ESMTP id k5CIZS4r032417 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 20:35:29 +0200 Received: from IS0004AVEXU1.global.avaya.com (h135-64-105-51.avaya.com [135.64.105.51]) by nj300815-ier2.net.avaya.com (Switch-3.1.8/Switch-3.1.7) with ESMTP id k5CIWAdm030497 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 14:32:11 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6603.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: [nmrg] IESG thoughts on network management Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 21:35:26 +0300 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [nmrg] IESG thoughts on network management Thread-Index: AcaOK5TtH+4zIQ+kRHOIGjGOHPUabwAAITuwAAChs/AAAZfkAAAGP4JA From: "Romascanu, Dan \(Dan\)" To: "David B Harrington" , "Margaret Wasserman" , "J.P. Martin-Flatin" , X-Scanner: InterScan AntiVirus for Sendmail X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: 2.255 (**) BAYES_70 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de id k5CIZS4r032417 Cc: X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 18:35:31 -0000 My wording was poor. I did not mean saying that recommending a one protocol / one data model was not useful or was a complete failure. What I meant is that the 'one size fits all' did not succeed to stop other types of management interfaces developing within the IETF or out of it. But, yes, the effort was worthwhile, and even successful and relevant in some specific segments and you are making a good point about the reasons. Dan > -----Original Message----- > From: David B Harrington [mailto:dbharrington@comcast.net] > Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 7:42 PM > To: Romascanu, Dan (Dan); 'Margaret Wasserman'; 'J.P. > Martin-Flatin'; nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de > Subject: RE: [nmrg] IESG thoughts on network management > > Hi, > > I disagree that "standardizing one protocol and recommending > one type of data model did not help too much for the last ten years". > Received: from shell4.bayarea.net (shell4.bayarea.net [209.128.82.1]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.2) with ESMTP id k5CGkR4q014568 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 18:46:28 +0200 Received: from shell4.bayarea.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by shell4.bayarea.net (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k5CGkRdN002240; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 09:46:27 -0700 Received: from localhost (dperkins@localhost) by shell4.bayarea.net (8.13.6/8.12.11/Submit) with ESMTP id k5CGkQvi002233; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 09:46:26 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: shell4.bayarea.net: dperkins owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 09:46:26 -0700 (PDT) From: "David T. Perkins" X-Sender: dperkins@shell4.bayarea.net To: Margaret Wasserman Subject: RE: [nmrg] IESG thoughts on network management In-Reply-To: <003901c68e34$610b4550$0202a8c0@corp.devicescape.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Cc: "'Wijnen, Bert \(Bert\)'" , "'J.P. Martin-Flatin'" , nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 16:46:30 -0000 HI, Very interesting thread, with many sub issues, so here goes: 1) There was a lot of terminology used in the IESG report that I wasn't quite sure of the meaning. Dan - can you provide a few short descriptions. 2) I looked at JP's paper. Note that it was published in 1999. Many of the issues remain. However, it could be republished today with AJAX instead of applets, and use XML to transport management info. The result would be timely. There are parts that I agree with, and others I don't, but maybe JP and I should have a private conversation. 3) On modelling, I've been singing the same tune for many years. At the highest level, management is all about deciding what you want done, configuring the system to do it, monitoring the system to make sure you are getting done what you wanted, and, if needed, changing the system configuration to better match what you wanted done. To accompish management (again at a high level), the following management operations are performed: create and delete instances of management info, performance management actions, retrieve values of management information, and asynch report events. Different management protocols have different specific ways that operations are performed and management information is described. For example, in SNMP, there is no explicit "perform action" operation. However, "action operations" are supported by SNMP by "clever" definitions of management info using the limited operations in SNMP. Creating those clever definitions, or reading someone else's and getting back to the action are preety easy tasks for "MIB experts", but not for casual SNMP users. Skipping a few steps in this example to get to the point... All management protocols that I've seen have their strenghts and weaknesses. But all must address the high level uses of management. 4) This is sort of a . The data types in SNMP's SMI have been stalled since the early 90's. Please, lets' add "unsignedInt64", "signedInt64", "Float and Double (using IEEE encoding and semantics, NOT ASN.1 encoding and semantics)", and "discriminated unions". I believe that this has been one of the top reasons why people don't want to using SNMP's SMI for data modelling. Another top reason is the limitations in the identification of instances (translated - indexing), and in describing in programmic way the relationships between instances. 5) Another theme I've been singing for many years is the need for a team in developing management solutions. That is, it is "crazy talk" or maybe "crazy think" to believe that one person knows 1) the technology, 2) how the technology is used (and how it fails) in deployments, 3) how to efficiently and cost effectively manage devices containing the technology (this means design and write code for "management apps" and "instrumentation"). The result that I've seen is that different standards groups are dominated by different sorts of experts, and they like to use management protocols and schemas for management info that matches their area of background (and bias). I'm stopping now. This message is already too long. Enjoy, /david t. perkins On Mon, 12 Jun 2006, Margaret Wasserman wrote: > > Hi Bert, > > > I agree that a mixture of protocols for management on a > > single device easily starts to look like a spagetthi bowl and > > may make (even rudimentary) management if the device > > difficult/problematic. > > > > At the other hand, if a WG is not interested and does not do > > a good job at designing a MIB module, then that is not > > helpfull either. So... what do you propose? > > I do not hold the view that "There must be only one". However, I don't > consider "Let a thousand flowers bloom" to be the only alternative. > > If there is no one protocol that will meet the requirements of both protocol > designers and operators/administrators, then I think that we need to have > more than one. And, in fact, we already have more than one. I also think > we need to understand _why_ we have more than one management protocol into > the IETF protocol suite and have some coherent idea of where and when each > management protocol will be used. Ideally, we would also understand how to > access (some of?) the same management information using different protocols, > as appropriate based on the role and purpose of each protocol. > > I am confused by the way the IESG's conclusion ties together data modeling > and the choice of management protocol. I'm concerned we'll get into a > situation where the "best" data modeling language for a given protocol will > simply be the language with which the authors are most familiar or the one > they'd most like to learn, and that little or no thought will be given to > how the complete system (consisting of this protocol and several related > protocols) will be managed. I consider choosing how a protocol will be > managed based on which data modeling language is most convenient to be the > opposite of designing a system for manageability. > > If I had to choose my Nirvana, it wouldn't be that everyone in the IETF > would use whatever data modeling language and management protocol they > preferred, it would be finding a way to define our information models in a > more management-protocol-agnostic fashion (hopefully earlier in the protocol > definition process) and being able to map that model (in as deterministic a > way as possible) onto the various data models for the various management > protocols. > > I'm not sure what it would mean to shift from "management by SNMP" to > "design for manageability", nor do I understand what the IESG meant when > they said that SNMP is "stuck on a single vertical model", so there may be > parts of the IESG's conclusions that I am failing to understand properly. > Dan, could you offer a bit more insight into what problems the IESG was > trying to solve and what you intend to change (if anything) based on these > conclusions? > > Margaret > Received: from rwcrmhc15.comcast.net (rwcrmhc15.comcast.net [216.148.227.155] (may be forged)) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.2) with ESMTP id k5CGgv4q013456 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 18:42:58 +0200 Received: from harrington73653 (c-24-128-147-200.hsd1.nh.comcast.net[24.128.147.200]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc15) with SMTP id <20060612164256m1500k6qb1e>; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 16:42:56 +0000 From: "David B Harrington" To: "'Romascanu, Dan \(Dan\)'" , "'Margaret Wasserman'" , "'J.P. Martin-Flatin'" , Subject: RE: [nmrg] IESG thoughts on network management Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 12:41:50 -0400 Message-ID: <07ab01c68e3f$1b7f01b0$0400a8c0@china.huawei.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-reply-to: X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Thread-index: AcaOK5TtH+4zIQ+kRHOIGjGOHPUabwAAITuwAAChs/AAAZfkAA== X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: 0.001 () BAYES_50 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Cc: X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 16:43:00 -0000 Hi, I disagree that "standardizing one protocol and recommending one type of data model did not help too much for the last ten years". In the evolution of Internet technologies, just as in Darwinian evolution, you need both lots of mutations and a winnowing process - natural selection or economic selection. CLI is designed to support managing the constant mutation of technologies; the publication of standardized data models, such as MIB modules, represents only a snapshot of a portion of the result of natural selection at some point in time. The MIB has been successful at making the naturally-selected concepts of Internet technologies available to management applications, especially using one IETF-standard protocol. The MIB is just a subset of an overall, constantly evolving information model. The MIB is useful for monitoring precisely because we can reach rough consensus on a subset of things to monitor. The MIB is not usually useful for configuring a complete device because we cannot reach agreement on all aspects of a complete device. The MIB is not even useful for totally configuring specific technologies because we cannot reach agreement on all the things that need to be configured to support specific technologies. The rest of the information model has not been standardized precisely because it is still mutating too rapidly for us to reach agreement. We can agree on a subset of data that is useful for monitoring Vlans, for example, but we have been unsuccessful at standardizing all the parameters needed to configure Vlans on all vendors' devices, and probably never will. I think standardizing and recommending one protocol for the last ten years has helped the industry tremendously. It helped us establish a baseline. But we did so largely ignoring additional protocols and data models operators need to manage the un-winnowed, constantly mutating, portion of the information model, primarily because we did not understand it well enough to engineer any standardized solutions. With the experience of the past ten years, especially aided by a common understanding learned from using one protocol and one data model, and seeing where it worked well and where it didn't, we now are able to see where additional helpful engineering work could be done. David Harrington dharrington@huawei.com dbharrington@comcast.net ietfdbh@comcast.net > -----Original Message----- > From: nmrg-bounces@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de > [mailto:nmrg-bounces@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de] On Behalf Of Romascanu, > Dan (Dan) > Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 10:53 AM > To: Margaret Wasserman; J.P. Martin-Flatin; nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de > Subject: RE: [nmrg] IESG thoughts on network management > > Well, yes, maybe - but such is life. The reality is that different > management protocols are being used for different IETF protocols, or > even for different management operations. Standardizing one protocol > and recommending one type of data model did not help too much for the > last ten years. It led however to a lot of energy being > channeled in the > wrong direction, and to some IETF protocols never being managed by a > IETF management protocols. > > A change of focus from 'management by SNMP' to 'manageability' is the > approach that I am suggesting to discuss. > > Dan > > PS - I will try to keep as quiet as I can for the time being, > because my > intention is really at this phase to trigger a discussion. > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: nmrg-bounces@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de > > [mailto:nmrg-bounces@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de] On Behalf Of Margaret > Wasserman > > Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 5:29 PM > > To: 'J.P. Martin-Flatin'; nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de > > Subject: RE: [nmrg] IESG thoughts on network management > > > > > > Taking a quote from the URL that JP sent: > > > > "It was felt that it's time for a change of approach in the > > IETF, from a reflexive "write a MIB" to a proactive "design > > for manageability." > > One of the key design aspects of management is the data > > model, and the choice of data model can be crucial. > > For example, decide whether a MIB, an LDAP structure, or a > > non-IETF solution is the best way to model a particular protocol. > > The protocol to use for management will follow from this > > rather than being SNMP by definition." > > > > Do these thoughts seem problematic or short-sited to others? > > > > Given that different IETF protocols are often combined into a > > single system, and I'm concerned that this approach might > > lead to a situation where multiple management protocols are > > required for even rudimentary management/monitoring of a > > single IETF protocol-based system. > > > > Thoughts? > > > > Margaret > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: nmrg-bounces@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de > > > [mailto:nmrg-bounces@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de] On Behalf Of J.P. > > Martin-Flatin > > > Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 10:19 AM > > > To: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de > > > Subject: [nmrg] IESG thoughts on network management > > > > > > I suggest you read item 11 at: > > > > > > http://www.ietf.org/u/ietfchair/Spring06retreatNotes.txt > > > > > > JP > > > -- > > > !! This message is brought to you via the `nmrg' mailing list. > > > !! Please do not reply to this message to unsubscribe. To > > unsubscribe > > > or adjust !! your settings, send a mail message to > > > !! or look at > > > http://agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nmrg. > > > > > > > -- > > !! This message is brought to you via the `nmrg' mailing list. > > !! Please do not reply to this message to unsubscribe. To > > unsubscribe or adjust !! your settings, send a mail message > > to !! or look at > > http://agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nmrg. > > > > -- > !! This message is brought to you via the `nmrg' mailing list. > !! Please do not reply to this message to unsubscribe. To > unsubscribe or adjust > !! your settings, send a mail message to > > !! or look at > http://agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nmrg. > Received: from nj300815-ier2.net.avaya.com (nj300815-ier2.net.avaya.com [198.152.12.103]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.2) with ESMTP id k5CFuO4r005659 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 17:56:24 +0200 Received: from IS0004AVEXU1.global.avaya.com (h135-64-105-51.avaya.com [135.64.105.51]) by nj300815-ier2.net.avaya.com (Switch-3.1.8/Switch-3.1.7) with ESMTP id k5CFr6ej010036 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 11:53:06 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6603.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: [nmrg] IESG thoughts on network management Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 18:56:21 +0300 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [nmrg] IESG thoughts on network management Thread-Index: AcaOLr3DOvMzP3CrTQShgblobq201AAAk3+QAAD08MA= From: "Romascanu, Dan \(Dan\)" To: "Margaret Wasserman" , "Wijnen, Bert \(Bert\)" , "J.P. Martin-Flatin" , X-Scanner: InterScan AntiVirus for Sendmail X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de id k5CFuO4r005659 Cc: X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 15:56:26 -0000 (The previous message included the presentation from the Boston retreat, but led to the message exceeding the max size. I took it out meantime, to keep the conversation flowing) Margaret, For clarification, the document pointed by Brian are the minutes of the retreat. There are no IESG conclusions here, but rather the minutes taker reflected a presentation that I gave and some of the following discussions. The result of these discussions was a recommendation to write an Internet-Draft which should focus the discussion and deal with the 'what problem we are trying to solve' question. In the presentation that I used at the IESG meeting there are more questions there then recommendations. A variant of this preso will be probably be brought to trigger discussions in the OPS area meeting in Montreal. There also may be some discussions about data model planning that come close to your 'Nirvana' idea, and you are invited to contribute if you have the bandwidth. For the record, I agree that "Let a thousand flowers bloom" is not a good approach. On the other hand neither is 'one-protocol-fits-all'. To use an example from the domain where I am doing management work for the last few years, there is practically no IP phone managed by SNMP out there. There may be a reason for this, and we want to find it. Dan > -----Original Message----- > From: nmrg-bounces@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de > [mailto:nmrg-bounces@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de] On Behalf Of Margaret Wasserman > Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 6:25 PM > To: 'Wijnen, Bert (Bert)'; 'J.P. Martin-Flatin'; nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de > Subject: RE: [nmrg] IESG thoughts on network management > > > Hi Bert, > > > I agree that a mixture of protocols for management on a > single device > > easily starts to look like a spagetthi bowl and may make (even > > rudimentary) management if the device difficult/problematic. > > > > At the other hand, if a WG is not interested and does not do a good > > job at designing a MIB module, then that is not helpfull > either. So... > > what do you propose? > > I do not hold the view that "There must be only one". > However, I don't consider "Let a thousand flowers bloom" to > be the only alternative. > > If there is no one protocol that will meet the requirements > of both protocol designers and operators/administrators, then > I think that we need to have more than one. And, in fact, we > already have more than one. I also think we need to > understand _why_ we have more than one management protocol > into the IETF protocol suite and have some coherent idea of > where and when each management protocol will be used. > Ideally, we would also understand how to access (some of?) > the same management information using different protocols, as > appropriate based on the role and purpose of each protocol. > > I am confused by the way the IESG's conclusion ties together > data modeling and the choice of management protocol. I'm > concerned we'll get into a situation where the "best" data > modeling language for a given protocol will simply be the > language with which the authors are most familiar or the one > they'd most like to learn, and that little or no thought will > be given to how the complete system (consisting of this > protocol and several related > protocols) will be managed. I consider choosing how a > protocol will be managed based on which data modeling > language is most convenient to be the opposite of designing a > system for manageability. > > If I had to choose my Nirvana, it wouldn't be that everyone > in the IETF would use whatever data modeling language and > management protocol they preferred, it would be finding a way > to define our information models in a more > management-protocol-agnostic fashion (hopefully earlier in > the protocol definition process) and being able to map that > model (in as deterministic a way as possible) onto the > various data models for the various management protocols. > > I'm not sure what it would mean to shift from "management by > SNMP" to "design for manageability", nor do I understand what > the IESG meant when they said that SNMP is "stuck on a single > vertical model", so there may be parts of the IESG's > conclusions that I am failing to understand properly. > Dan, could you offer a bit more insight into what problems > the IESG was trying to solve and what you intend to change > (if anything) based on these conclusions? > > Margaret > > -- > !! This message is brought to you via the `nmrg' mailing list. > !! Please do not reply to this message to unsubscribe. To > unsubscribe or adjust !! your settings, send a mail message > to !! or look at > http://agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nmrg. > Received: from co300216-ier2.net.avaya.com (co300216-ier2.net.avaya.com [198.152.13.103]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.2) with ESMTP id k5CFos4r004404 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 17:50:56 +0200 Received: from IS0004AVEXU1.global.avaya.com (h135-64-105-51.avaya.com [135.64.105.51]) by co300216-ier2.net.avaya.com (Switch-3.1.8/Switch-3.1.7) with ESMTP id k5CFmM8W025357 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 11:48:23 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6603.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C68E37.F9E04531" Subject: RE: [nmrg] IESG thoughts on network management Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 18:50:49 +0300 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [nmrg] IESG thoughts on network management Thread-Index: AcaOLr3DOvMzP3CrTQShgblobq201AAAk3+QAAD08MA= From: "Romascanu, Dan \(Dan\)" To: "Margaret Wasserman" , "Wijnen, Bert \(Bert\)" , "J.P. Martin-Flatin" , X-Scanner: InterScan AntiVirus for Sendmail X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 09:13:38 +0200 Cc: X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 15:50:58 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C68E37.F9E04531 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Margaret, For clarification, the document pointed by Brian are the minutes of the retreat. There are no IESG conclusions here, but rather the minutes taker reflected a presentation that I gave and some of the following discussions. The result of these discussions was a recommendation to write an Internet-Draft which should focus the discussion and deal with the 'what problem we are trying to solve' question.=20 I am attaching the presentation that I used at the IESG meeting, which is probably a better basis for the discussion. As you can see there are more questions there then recommendations. A variant of this preso will be probably be brought to trigger discussions in the OPS area meeting in Montreal. There also may be some discussions about data model planning that come close to your 'Nirvana' idea, and you are invited to contribute if you have the bandwidth.=20 For the record, I agree that "Let a thousand flowers bloom" is not a good approach. On the other hand neither is 'one-protocol-fits-all'. To use an example from the domain where I am doing management work for the last few years, there is practically no IP phone managed by SNMP out there. There may be a reason for this, and we want to find it.=20 Dan =20 =20 > -----Original Message----- > From: nmrg-bounces@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de=20 > [mailto:nmrg-bounces@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de] On Behalf Of Margaret Wasserman > Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 6:25 PM > To: 'Wijnen, Bert (Bert)'; 'J.P. Martin-Flatin'; nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de > Subject: RE: [nmrg] IESG thoughts on network management >=20 >=20 > Hi Bert, >=20 > > I agree that a mixture of protocols for management on a=20 > single device=20 > > easily starts to look like a spagetthi bowl and may make (even=20 > > rudimentary) management if the device difficult/problematic. > >=20 > > At the other hand, if a WG is not interested and does not do a good=20 > > job at designing a MIB module, then that is not helpfull=20 > either. So...=20 > > what do you propose? >=20 > I do not hold the view that "There must be only one". =20 > However, I don't consider "Let a thousand flowers bloom" to=20 > be the only alternative. >=20 > If there is no one protocol that will meet the requirements=20 > of both protocol designers and operators/administrators, then=20 > I think that we need to have more than one. And, in fact, we=20 > already have more than one. I also think we need to=20 > understand _why_ we have more than one management protocol=20 > into the IETF protocol suite and have some coherent idea of=20 > where and when each management protocol will be used. =20 > Ideally, we would also understand how to access (some of?)=20 > the same management information using different protocols, as=20 > appropriate based on the role and purpose of each protocol. >=20 > I am confused by the way the IESG's conclusion ties together=20 > data modeling and the choice of management protocol. I'm=20 > concerned we'll get into a situation where the "best" data=20 > modeling language for a given protocol will simply be the=20 > language with which the authors are most familiar or the one=20 > they'd most like to learn, and that little or no thought will=20 > be given to how the complete system (consisting of this=20 > protocol and several related > protocols) will be managed. I consider choosing how a=20 > protocol will be managed based on which data modeling=20 > language is most convenient to be the opposite of designing a=20 > system for manageability. >=20 > If I had to choose my Nirvana, it wouldn't be that everyone=20 > in the IETF would use whatever data modeling language and=20 > management protocol they preferred, it would be finding a way=20 > to define our information models in a more=20 > management-protocol-agnostic fashion (hopefully earlier in=20 > the protocol definition process) and being able to map that=20 > model (in as deterministic a way as possible) onto the=20 > various data models for the various management protocols. >=20 > I'm not sure what it would mean to shift from "management by=20 > SNMP" to "design for manageability", nor do I understand what=20 > the IESG meant when they said that SNMP is "stuck on a single=20 > vertical model", so there may be parts of the IESG's=20 > conclusions that I am failing to understand properly. > Dan, could you offer a bit more insight into what problems=20 > the IESG was trying to solve and what you intend to change=20 > (if anything) based on these conclusions? >=20 > Margaret >=20 > -- > !! This message is brought to you via the `nmrg' mailing list. > !! Please do not reply to this message to unsubscribe. To=20 > unsubscribe or adjust !! your settings, send a mail message=20 > to !! or look at=20 > http://agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nmrg. >=20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C68E37.F9E04531 Content-Type: application/vnd.ms-powerpoint; name="Network Management Complexities_01.ppt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Description: Network Management Complexities_01.ppt Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Network Management Complexities_01.ppt" 0M8R4KGxGuEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAPgADAP7/CQAGAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABAAAAbgAAAAAAAAAA EAAAZgAAAAEAAAD+////AAAAAG8AAAD///////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// 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------_=_NextPart_001_01C68E37.F9E04531-- Received: from thingmagic.com (tm-beth-server.cictr.com [204.9.221.19] (may be forged)) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.2) with ESMTP id k5CFPH4q032548 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 17:25:17 +0200 Received: from [66.30.121.250] (account margaret HELO ceili) by thingmagic.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0.1) with ESMTPSA id 1037194; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 11:25:16 -0400 From: "Margaret Wasserman" To: "'Wijnen, Bert \(Bert\)'" , "'J.P. Martin-Flatin'" , Subject: RE: [nmrg] IESG thoughts on network management Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 11:24:59 -0400 Message-ID: <003901c68e34$610b4550$0202a8c0@corp.devicescape.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <7D5D48D2CAA3D84C813F5B154F43B1550A338B6E@nl0006exch001u.nl.lucent.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Thread-Index: AcaOLr3DOvMzP3CrTQShgblobq201AAAk3+Q X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: 0.001 () BAYES_50 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Cc: X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 15:25:19 -0000 Hi Bert, > I agree that a mixture of protocols for management on a > single device easily starts to look like a spagetthi bowl and > may make (even rudimentary) management if the device > difficult/problematic. > > At the other hand, if a WG is not interested and does not do > a good job at designing a MIB module, then that is not > helpfull either. So... what do you propose? I do not hold the view that "There must be only one". However, I don't consider "Let a thousand flowers bloom" to be the only alternative. If there is no one protocol that will meet the requirements of both protocol designers and operators/administrators, then I think that we need to have more than one. And, in fact, we already have more than one. I also think we need to understand _why_ we have more than one management protocol into the IETF protocol suite and have some coherent idea of where and when each management protocol will be used. Ideally, we would also understand how to access (some of?) the same management information using different protocols, as appropriate based on the role and purpose of each protocol. I am confused by the way the IESG's conclusion ties together data modeling and the choice of management protocol. I'm concerned we'll get into a situation where the "best" data modeling language for a given protocol will simply be the language with which the authors are most familiar or the one they'd most like to learn, and that little or no thought will be given to how the complete system (consisting of this protocol and several related protocols) will be managed. I consider choosing how a protocol will be managed based on which data modeling language is most convenient to be the opposite of designing a system for manageability. If I had to choose my Nirvana, it wouldn't be that everyone in the IETF would use whatever data modeling language and management protocol they preferred, it would be finding a way to define our information models in a more management-protocol-agnostic fashion (hopefully earlier in the protocol definition process) and being able to map that model (in as deterministic a way as possible) onto the various data models for the various management protocols. I'm not sure what it would mean to shift from "management by SNMP" to "design for manageability", nor do I understand what the IESG meant when they said that SNMP is "stuck on a single vertical model", so there may be parts of the IESG's conclusions that I am failing to understand properly. Dan, could you offer a bit more insight into what problems the IESG was trying to solve and what you intend to change (if anything) based on these conclusions? Margaret Received: from mtagate3.uk.ibm.com (mtagate3.uk.ibm.com [195.212.29.136]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.2) with ESMTP id k5CFFZ4r030659 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=FAIL) for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 17:15:35 +0200 Received: from d06nrmr1407.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (d06nrmr1407.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com [9.149.38.185]) by mtagate3.uk.ibm.com (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k5CFFZXV157836 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK) for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 16:15:35 +0100 Received: from d06av04.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (d06av04.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com [9.149.37.216]) by d06nrmr1407.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (8.13.6/NCO/VER7.0) with ESMTP id k5CFGmnE143630 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 16:16:48 +0100 Received: from d06av04.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by d06av04.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.13.3) with ESMTP id k5CFFY9K001013 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 16:15:34 +0100 Received: from sihl.zurich.ibm.com (sihl.zurich.ibm.com [9.4.16.232]) by d06av04.portsmouth.uk.ibm.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k5CFFX5s001007; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 16:15:34 +0100 Received: from zurich.ibm.com (sig-9-145-249-114.de.ibm.com [9.145.249.114]) by sihl.zurich.ibm.com (AIX4.3/8.9.3p2/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA39138; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 17:15:33 +0200 Message-ID: <448D8514.7090807@zurich.ibm.com> Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 17:15:32 +0200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: IBM User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.6) Gecko/20040113 X-Accept-Language: en, fr, de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "J.P. Martin-Flatin" References: <448D79CC.4000507@ieee.org> In-Reply-To: <448D79CC.4000507@ieee.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: -0.904 () BAYES_30 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 09:12:21 +0200 Cc: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Subject: [nmrg] Re: Notes from IESG Retreat held in May X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 15:15:37 -0000 > 2) Para 4, li 3: "WEBM" -> "WBEM/CIM" Thanks, I'll fix the typo in my original at least. Received: from maile.telecomitalia.it (maile.telecomitalia.it [156.54.233.31]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.2) with ESMTP id k5CFAJ4q029485 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 17:10:19 +0200 Received: from ptpxch009ba020.idc.cww.telecomitalia.it ([156.54.240.52]) by maile.telecomitalia.it with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 12 Jun 2006 17:10:18 +0200 Received: from PTPEVS108BA020.idc.cww.telecomitalia.it ([156.54.241.227]) by ptpxch009ba020.idc.cww.telecomitalia.it with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 12 Jun 2006 17:10:18 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.3790.2663 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_135210_01C68E43.146D53A0" Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: normal Priority: normal Subject: RE: [nmrg] IESG thoughts on network management Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 17:10:18 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <448D77D3.7070706@ieee.org> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [nmrg] IESG thoughts on network management thread-index: AcaOK6ylHGorvvCqSJW2gX2MlDY9zQABdn+Q From: "Grosso Enrico" To: "J.P. Martin-Flatin" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Jun 2006 15:10:18.0018 (UTC) FILETIME=[50B4E820:01C68E32] X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: 0.101 () BAYES_50,HTML_MESSAGE X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 13 Jun 2006 09:12:56 +0200 Cc: X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 15:10:21 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_135210_01C68E43.146D53A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, in the telco industry, new approaches are under investigations for management of home networks for triple play services, and as an example please take CWMP protocol and TR-069/TR-111 management from DSL Forum. So reading this issue 11 below from IESG sounds interesting, especially if future collaboration/convergence of industry efforts into IETF could happen. Regards Enrico Grosso Telecom Italia (www.telecomitalia.it) enrico1.grosso@telecomitalia.it Phone: +39 011 2288046 Mobile: +39 335 7854037 -----Original Message----- From: nmrg-bounces@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de [mailto:nmrg-bounces@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de] On Behalf Of J.P. Martin-Flatin Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 4:19 PM To: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Subject: [nmrg] IESG thoughts on network management I suggest you read item 11 at: http://www.ietf.org/u/ietfchair/Spring06retreatNotes.txt JP -- !! This message is brought to you via the `nmrg' mailing list. !! Please do not reply to this message to unsubscribe. To unsubscribe or adjust !! your settings, send a mail message to !! or look at http://agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nmrg. -------------------------------------------------------------------- CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This message and its attachments are addressed solely to the persons = above and may contain confidential information. If you have received the = message in error, be informed that any use of the content hereof is = prohibited. Please return it immediately to the sender and delete the = message. Should you have any questions, please contact us by replying to = webmaster@telecomitalia.it. Thank you www.telecomitalia.it -------------------------------------------------------------------- ------=_NextPart_000_135210_01C68E43.146D53A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
Hi all,
in the = telco industry, new approaches are under investigations = for
management of home networks for triple play services, and as an = example
please take CWMP protocol and TR-069/TR-111 management from = DSL Forum.

So reading this issue 11 below from IESG sounds = interesting, especially
if future collaboration/convergence of = industry efforts into IETF could
happen.

Regards

Enrico = Grosso
Telecom Italia = (www.telecomitalia.it)
enrico1.grosso@telecomitalia.it
Phone: +39 = 011 2288046
Mobile: +39 335 7854037



-----Original = Message-----
From: nmrg-bounces@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de = [mailto:nmrg-bounces@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de]
On Behalf Of J.P. = Martin-Flatin
Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 4:19 PM
To: = nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de
Subject: [nmrg] IESG thoughts on network = management

I suggest you read item 11 at:

= http://www.ietf.org/u/ietfchair/Spring06retreatNotes.txt

JP
--<= BR>!! This message is brought to you via the `nmrg' mailing list.
!! = Please do not reply to this message to unsubscribe. To unsubscribe = or
adjust !! your settings, send a mail message = to
!! or look = at
http://agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nmrg.
<= DIV>--------------------------------------------------------------------=
CONFIDENTIALITY=20 NOTICE
This message and its attachments are addressed solely to the=20 persons
above and may contain confidential information. If you have=20 received
the message in error, be informed that any use of the = content=20 hereof
is prohibited. Please return it immediately to the sender and=20 delete
the message. Should you have any questions, please contact us=20 by
replying to webmaster@telecomitalia.it.
        = Thank=20 you
           =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;   =20 www.telecomitalia.it
--------------------------------------------------------------------= ------=_NextPart_000_135210_01C68E43.146D53A0-- Received: from nj300815-ier2.net.avaya.com (nj300815-ier2.net.avaya.com [198.152.12.103]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.2) with ESMTP id k5CErI4r025097 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 16:53:19 +0200 Received: from IS0004AVEXU1.global.avaya.com (h135-64-105-51.avaya.com [135.64.105.51]) by nj300815-ier2.net.avaya.com (Switch-3.1.8/Switch-3.1.7) with ESMTP id k5CEo02n031710 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 10:50:01 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6603.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: [nmrg] IESG thoughts on network management Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 17:53:16 +0300 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [nmrg] IESG thoughts on network management Thread-Index: AcaOK5TtH+4zIQ+kRHOIGjGOHPUabwAAITuwAAChs/A= From: "Romascanu, Dan \(Dan\)" To: "Margaret Wasserman" , "J.P. Martin-Flatin" , X-Scanner: InterScan AntiVirus for Sendmail X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: 0.001 () BAYES_50 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de id k5CErI4r025097 Cc: X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 14:53:21 -0000 Well, yes, maybe - but such is life. The reality is that different management protocols are being used for different IETF protocols, or even for different management operations. Standardizing one protocol and recommending one type of data model did not help too much for the last ten years. It led however to a lot of energy being channeled in the wrong direction, and to some IETF protocols never being managed by a IETF management protocols. A change of focus from 'management by SNMP' to 'manageability' is the approach that I am suggesting to discuss. Dan PS - I will try to keep as quiet as I can for the time being, because my intention is really at this phase to trigger a discussion. > -----Original Message----- > From: nmrg-bounces@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de > [mailto:nmrg-bounces@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de] On Behalf Of Margaret Wasserman > Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 5:29 PM > To: 'J.P. Martin-Flatin'; nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de > Subject: RE: [nmrg] IESG thoughts on network management > > > Taking a quote from the URL that JP sent: > > "It was felt that it's time for a change of approach in the > IETF, from a reflexive "write a MIB" to a proactive "design > for manageability." > One of the key design aspects of management is the data > model, and the choice of data model can be crucial. > For example, decide whether a MIB, an LDAP structure, or a > non-IETF solution is the best way to model a particular protocol. > The protocol to use for management will follow from this > rather than being SNMP by definition." > > Do these thoughts seem problematic or short-sited to others? > > Given that different IETF protocols are often combined into a > single system, and I'm concerned that this approach might > lead to a situation where multiple management protocols are > required for even rudimentary management/monitoring of a > single IETF protocol-based system. > > Thoughts? > > Margaret > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: nmrg-bounces@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de > > [mailto:nmrg-bounces@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de] On Behalf Of J.P. > Martin-Flatin > > Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 10:19 AM > > To: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de > > Subject: [nmrg] IESG thoughts on network management > > > > I suggest you read item 11 at: > > > > http://www.ietf.org/u/ietfchair/Spring06retreatNotes.txt > > > > JP > > -- > > !! This message is brought to you via the `nmrg' mailing list. > > !! Please do not reply to this message to unsubscribe. To > unsubscribe > > or adjust !! your settings, send a mail message to > > !! or look at > > http://agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nmrg. > > > > -- > !! This message is brought to you via the `nmrg' mailing list. > !! Please do not reply to this message to unsubscribe. To > unsubscribe or adjust !! your settings, send a mail message > to !! or look at > http://agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nmrg. > Received: from sj-iport-3.cisco.com (sj-iport-3-in.cisco.com [171.71.176.72]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.2) with ESMTP id k5CEit4q023299 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 16:44:56 +0200 Received: from sj-dkim-2.cisco.com ([171.71.179.186]) by sj-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 12 Jun 2006 07:44:55 -0700 X-IronPort-AV: i="4.05,229,1146466800"; d="scan'208"; a="430603136:sNHT29810368" Received: from sj-core-2.cisco.com (sj-core-2.cisco.com [171.71.177.254]) by sj-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k5CEisDJ021418; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 07:44:54 -0700 Received: from imail.cisco.com (sjc12-sbr-sw3-3f5.cisco.com [172.19.96.182]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k5CEiske007902; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 07:44:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [212.254.247.5] (ams3-vpn-dhcp4445.cisco.com [10.61.81.92]) by imail.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.10) with ESMTP id k5CEemDn014710; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 07:40:48 -0700 Message-ID: <448D7DE4.3050209@cisco.com> Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 16:44:52 +0200 From: Eliot Lear User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.4 (Macintosh/20060530) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Margaret Wasserman Subject: Re: [nmrg] IESG thoughts on network management References: <001f01c68e2c$9110f270$0202a8c0@corp.devicescape.com> In-Reply-To: <001f01c68e2c$9110f270$0202a8c0@corp.devicescape.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-2.cisco.com; header.From=lear@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com verified; ); DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; l=1648; t=1150123494; x=1150987494; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim2001; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=lear@cisco.com; z=From:Eliot=20Lear=20 |Subject:Re=3A=20[nmrg]=20IESG=20thoughts=20on=20network=20management; X=v=3Dcisco.com=3B=20h=3DDXATDQVn5+dmi2uhHEmb5/NNeLQ=3D; b=bOj8WSrc5syCndh6FCqn/ULX+5FeYNbD9tz9ZOeecos9KFsA5icMwH0xcKf5uhqvGAu1Rqto tHiuQFLPy/nD4+R+UXOH5Yc0RxncX21eeUFhX5EHNdH4pKY7zI+ACyFh; X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Cc: "'J.P. Martin-Flatin'" , nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 14:44:57 -0000 Margaret Wasserman wrote: > > Taking a quote from the URL that JP sent: > > "It was felt that it's time for a change of approach in the IETF, from > a reflexive "write a MIB" to a proactive "design for manageability." > One of the key design aspects of management is the data model, > and the choice of data model can be crucial. > For example, decide whether a MIB, an LDAP structure, or a > non-IETF solution is the best way to model a particular protocol. > The protocol to use for management will follow from this rather > than being SNMP by definition." > > Do these thoughts seem problematic or short-sited to others? > Only if nirvana looks bad! But precisely what does this mean? For instance, those layers Dan talks about exist for a practical reason: reuse. If there's no reuse then it's all just overhead. This was, IMHO the great thing that Marshall Rose, Steve Kille, and others demonstrated with Quipu, the full scale X.500 experiment that ran on the Internet for quite some time (Do YOU remember your chosen endangered species for CN? Mine was The Hornero) and one of the reasons we have LDAP. So for instance, what's an appropriate management model for HTTP? Especially given that it's really the standard transport these days. There are lots of bumps and dead ends on the way to Nirvana. Knowing how to manage something often requires a lot of experience, and so we have to be careful to how we do the above without creating yet another grand unified theory that ends up on the shelf. So, I'm not saying that Dan is wrong, but proceed with caution. There be dragons here! Eliot Received: from ihemail2.lucent.com (ihemail2.lucent.com [192.11.222.163]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.2) with ESMTP id k5CEiZ4q023127 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 16:44:36 +0200 Received: from nl0006exch001h.wins.lucent.com (h135-85-76-62.lucent.com [135.85.76.62]) by ihemail2.lucent.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k5CEiXft017986; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 09:44:34 -0500 (CDT) Received: by nl0006exch001h.nl.lucent.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 16:44:32 +0200 Message-ID: <7D5D48D2CAA3D84C813F5B154F43B1550A338B6E@nl0006exch001u.nl.lucent.com> From: "Wijnen, Bert (Bert)" To: Margaret Wasserman , "'J.P. Martin-Flatin'" , nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Subject: RE: [nmrg] IESG thoughts on network management Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 16:44:28 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: 0.001 () BAYES_50 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Cc: X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 14:44:38 -0000 Inline > -----Original Message----- > From: nmrg-bounces@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de > [mailto:nmrg-bounces@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de]On Behalf Of Margaret Wasserman > Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 16:29 > To: 'J.P. Martin-Flatin'; nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de > Subject: RE: [nmrg] IESG thoughts on network management > > > > Taking a quote from the URL that JP sent: > > "It was felt that it's time for a change of approach in the IETF, from > a reflexive "write a MIB" to a proactive "design for manageability." > One of the key design aspects of management is the data model, > and the choice of data model can be crucial. > For example, decide whether a MIB, an LDAP structure, or a > non-IETF solution is the best way to model a particular protocol. > The protocol to use for management will follow from this rather > than being SNMP by definition." > > Do these thoughts seem problematic or short-sited to others? > > Given that different IETF protocols are often combined into a single system, > and I'm concerned that this approach might lead to a situation where > multiple management protocols are required for even rudimentary > management/monitoring of a single IETF protocol-based system. > > Thoughts? > I agree that a mixture of protocols for management on a single device easily starts to look like a spagetthi bowl and may make (even rudimentary) management if the device difficult/problematic. At the other hand, if a WG is not interested and does not do a good job at designing a MIB module, then that is not helpfull either. So... what do you propose? Bert > Margaret > Received: from co300216-ier2.net.avaya.com (co300216-ier2.net.avaya.com [198.152.13.103]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.2) with ESMTP id k5CEf44r022679 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 16:41:05 +0200 Received: from IS0004AVEXU1.global.avaya.com (h135-64-105-51.avaya.com [135.64.105.51]) by co300216-ier2.net.avaya.com (Switch-3.1.8/Switch-3.1.7) with ESMTP id k5CEcZWX026395 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 10:38:36 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6603.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: [nmrg] Re: Notes from IESG Retreat held in May Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 17:41:02 +0300 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [nmrg] Re: Notes from IESG Retreat held in May Thread-Index: AcaOLFyZjpbl6BCLQuizEsOtZ/Mf6AAAO8lg From: "Romascanu, Dan \(Dan\)" To: "J.P. Martin-Flatin" , "Brian Carpenter" X-Scanner: InterScan AntiVirus for Sendmail X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: 0.001 () BAYES_50 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de id k5CEf44r022679 Cc: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 14:41:10 -0000 Hi JP, > -----Original Message----- > From: nmrg-bounces@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de > [mailto:nmrg-bounces@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de] On Behalf Of J.P. Martin-Flatin > Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 5:27 PM > To: Brian Carpenter > Cc: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de > Subject: [nmrg] Re: Notes from IESG Retreat held in May > > > 1) Para 1, bullet 3: The current SNMP protocol is based on > "pull" not "push". See my IM 1999 paper: > > http://www.labunix.uqam.ca/%7Ejpmf/papers/im99.pdf I was not aware about your paper, and still need to read it attentively. The terminology that I am using is quite widely used (I believe) and is looking at the management operations from the perspective of a network operator performing configuration operations on a network device. It seems that you were using an inverse convention in your paper. Dan Received: from frankfurt.wu-wien.ac.at (frankfurt.wu-wien.ac.at [137.208.226.42]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.2) with ESMTP id k5CEbH4q021420 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 16:37:17 +0200 Received: from [137.208.224.185] (abt-wi-026.wu-wien.ac.at [137.208.224.185]) by frankfurt.wu-wien.ac.at (Postfix) with ESMTP id 752655B0513; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 16:37:17 +0200 (CEST) In-Reply-To: <001f01c68e2c$9110f270$0202a8c0@corp.devicescape.com> References: <001f01c68e2c$9110f270$0202a8c0@corp.devicescape.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v750) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Michael Alexander Subject: Re: [nmrg] IESG thoughts on network management Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 16:37:16 +0200 To: "Margaret Wasserman" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.750) X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Cc: "'J.P. Martin-Flatin'" , nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 14:37:18 -0000 the management protocol (may it be CORBA to XML - in alphabetical order) is really secondary to the data model. What matters is a good fine-grained, well structured model, from which basically _any protocol can read from/write to. In case the e.g. internal structure of a device is MIB/SNMP based and the underlying data model is well done, then agents can be written sensibly. If the data model is spotty then management is a pain _no matter the protocol. On 12.06.2006, at 16:29, Margaret Wasserman wrote: > > Taking a quote from the URL that JP sent: > > "It was felt that it's time for a change of approach in the IETF, from > a reflexive "write a MIB" to a proactive "design for manageability." > One of the key design aspects of management is the data model, > and the choice of data model can be crucial. > For example, decide whether a MIB, an LDAP structure, or a > non-IETF solution is the best way to model a particular protocol. > The protocol to use for management will follow from this rather > than being SNMP by definition." > > Do these thoughts seem problematic or short-sited to others? > > Given that different IETF protocols are often combined into a > single system, > and I'm concerned that this approach might lead to a situation where > multiple management protocols are required for even rudimentary > management/monitoring of a single IETF protocol-based system. > > Thoughts? > > Margaret > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nmrg-bounces@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de >> [mailto:nmrg-bounces@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de] On Behalf Of J.P. Martin-Flatin >> Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 10:19 AM >> To: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de >> Subject: [nmrg] IESG thoughts on network management >> >> I suggest you read item 11 at: >> >> http://www.ietf.org/u/ietfchair/Spring06retreatNotes.txt >> >> JP >> -- >> !! This message is brought to you via the `nmrg' mailing list. >> !! Please do not reply to this message to unsubscribe. To >> unsubscribe or adjust !! your settings, send a mail message >> to !! or look at >> http://agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nmrg. >> > > -- > !! This message is brought to you via the `nmrg' mailing list. > !! Please do not reply to this message to unsubscribe. To > unsubscribe or adjust > !! your settings, send a mail message to bs.de> > !! or look at http://agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de/cgi-bin/mailman/ > listinfo/nmrg. Received: from co300216-ier2.net.avaya.com (co300216-ier2.net.avaya.com [198.152.13.103]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.2) with ESMTP id k5CEW84r020379 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 16:32:09 +0200 Received: from IS0004AVEXU1.global.avaya.com (h135-64-105-51.avaya.com [135.64.105.51]) by co300216-ier2.net.avaya.com (Switch-3.1.8/Switch-3.1.7) with ESMTP id k5CETamk010597 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 10:29:39 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.0.6603.0 content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: RE: [nmrg] IESG thoughts on network management Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 17:32:02 +0300 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [nmrg] IESG thoughts on network management Thread-Index: AcaOK5TtH+4zIQ+kRHOIGjGOHPUabwAAITuwAAAltGAAAAyZIA== From: "Romascanu, Dan \(Dan\)" To: "Margaret Wasserman" , "J.P. Martin-Flatin" , X-Scanner: InterScan AntiVirus for Sendmail X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: 0.001 () BAYES_50 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de id k5CEW84r020379 Cc: X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 14:32:11 -0000 I am :-) Thanks for the consideration. Dan > -----Original Message----- > From: nmrg-bounces@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de > [mailto:nmrg-bounces@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de] On Behalf Of Margaret Wasserman > Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 5:30 PM > To: 'Margaret Wasserman'; 'J.P. Martin-Flatin'; nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de > Subject: RE: [nmrg] IESG thoughts on network management > > > BTW, is Dan on this list? Or should we copy him on this discussion? > > Margaret > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Margaret Wasserman [mailto:margaret@thingmagic.com] > > Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 10:29 AM > > To: 'J.P. Martin-Flatin'; 'nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de' > > Subject: RE: [nmrg] IESG thoughts on network management > > > > > > Taking a quote from the URL that JP sent: > > > > "It was felt that it's time for a change of approach in the > IETF, from > > a reflexive "write a MIB" to a proactive "design for manageability." > > One of the key design aspects of management is the data > model, and the > > choice of data model can be crucial. > > For example, decide whether a MIB, an LDAP structure, or a non-IETF > > solution is the best way to model a particular protocol. > > The protocol to use for management will follow from this > rather than > > being SNMP by definition." > > > > Do these thoughts seem problematic or short-sited to others? > > > > Given that different IETF protocols are often combined into > a single > > system, and I'm concerned that this approach might lead to > a situation > > where multiple management protocols are required for even > rudimentary > > management/monitoring of a single IETF protocol-based system. > > > > Thoughts? > > > > Margaret > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: nmrg-bounces@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de > > > [mailto:nmrg-bounces@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de] On Behalf Of J.P. > > Martin-Flatin > > > Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 10:19 AM > > > To: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de > > > Subject: [nmrg] IESG thoughts on network management > > > > > > I suggest you read item 11 at: > > > > > > http://www.ietf.org/u/ietfchair/Spring06retreatNotes.txt > > > > > > JP > > > -- > > > !! This message is brought to you via the `nmrg' mailing list. > > > !! Please do not reply to this message to unsubscribe. To > > unsubscribe > > > or adjust !! your settings, send a mail message to > > > !! or look at > > > http://agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nmrg. > > > > > -- > !! This message is brought to you via the `nmrg' mailing list. > !! Please do not reply to this message to unsubscribe. To > unsubscribe or adjust !! your settings, send a mail message > to !! or look at > http://agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nmrg. > Received: from thingmagic.com (tm-beth-server.cictr.com [204.9.221.19] (may be forged)) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.2) with ESMTP id k5CEUf4q020222 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 16:30:42 +0200 Received: from [66.30.121.250] (account margaret HELO ceili) by thingmagic.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0.1) with ESMTPSA id 1037036; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 10:30:41 -0400 From: "Margaret Wasserman" To: "'Margaret Wasserman'" , "'J.P. Martin-Flatin'" , Subject: RE: [nmrg] IESG thoughts on network management Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 10:30:26 -0400 Message-ID: <002001c68e2c$c0bdb080$0202a8c0@corp.devicescape.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Thread-Index: AcaOK5TtH+4zIQ+kRHOIGjGOHPUabwAAITuwAAAltGA= X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: 0.001 () BAYES_50 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Cc: X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 14:30:43 -0000 BTW, is Dan on this list? Or should we copy him on this discussion? Margaret > -----Original Message----- > From: Margaret Wasserman [mailto:margaret@thingmagic.com] > Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 10:29 AM > To: 'J.P. Martin-Flatin'; 'nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de' > Subject: RE: [nmrg] IESG thoughts on network management > > > Taking a quote from the URL that JP sent: > > "It was felt that it's time for a change of approach in the > IETF, from a reflexive "write a MIB" to a proactive "design > for manageability." > One of the key design aspects of management is the data > model, and the choice of data model can be crucial. > For example, decide whether a MIB, an LDAP structure, or a > non-IETF solution is the best way to model a particular protocol. > The protocol to use for management will follow from this > rather than being SNMP by definition." > > Do these thoughts seem problematic or short-sited to others? > > Given that different IETF protocols are often combined into a > single system, and I'm concerned that this approach might > lead to a situation where multiple management protocols are > required for even rudimentary management/monitoring of a > single IETF protocol-based system. > > Thoughts? > > Margaret > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: nmrg-bounces@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de > > [mailto:nmrg-bounces@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de] On Behalf Of J.P. > Martin-Flatin > > Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 10:19 AM > > To: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de > > Subject: [nmrg] IESG thoughts on network management > > > > I suggest you read item 11 at: > > > > http://www.ietf.org/u/ietfchair/Spring06retreatNotes.txt > > > > JP > > -- > > !! This message is brought to you via the `nmrg' mailing list. > > !! Please do not reply to this message to unsubscribe. To > unsubscribe > > or adjust !! your settings, send a mail message to > > !! or look at > > http://agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nmrg. > > Received: from thingmagic.com (tm-beth-server.cictr.com [204.9.221.19] (may be forged)) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.2) with ESMTP id k5CETM4q019507 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 16:29:22 +0200 Received: from [66.30.121.250] (account margaret HELO ceili) by thingmagic.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.0.1) with ESMTPSA id 1037029; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 10:29:21 -0400 From: "Margaret Wasserman" To: "'J.P. Martin-Flatin'" , Subject: RE: [nmrg] IESG thoughts on network management Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 10:29:04 -0400 Message-ID: <001f01c68e2c$9110f270$0202a8c0@corp.devicescape.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <448D77D3.7070706@ieee.org> X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Thread-Index: AcaOK5TtH+4zIQ+kRHOIGjGOHPUabwAAITuw X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: 0.001 () BAYES_50 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Cc: X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 14:29:24 -0000 Taking a quote from the URL that JP sent: "It was felt that it's time for a change of approach in the IETF, from a reflexive "write a MIB" to a proactive "design for manageability." One of the key design aspects of management is the data model, and the choice of data model can be crucial. For example, decide whether a MIB, an LDAP structure, or a non-IETF solution is the best way to model a particular protocol. The protocol to use for management will follow from this rather than being SNMP by definition." Do these thoughts seem problematic or short-sited to others? Given that different IETF protocols are often combined into a single system, and I'm concerned that this approach might lead to a situation where multiple management protocols are required for even rudimentary management/monitoring of a single IETF protocol-based system. Thoughts? Margaret > -----Original Message----- > From: nmrg-bounces@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de > [mailto:nmrg-bounces@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de] On Behalf Of J.P. Martin-Flatin > Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 10:19 AM > To: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de > Subject: [nmrg] IESG thoughts on network management > > I suggest you read item 11 at: > > http://www.ietf.org/u/ietfchair/Spring06retreatNotes.txt > > JP > -- > !! This message is brought to you via the `nmrg' mailing list. > !! Please do not reply to this message to unsubscribe. To > unsubscribe or adjust !! your settings, send a mail message > to !! or look at > http://agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/nmrg. > Received: from mail16.bluewin.ch (mail16.bluewin.ch [195.186.19.63]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.2) with ESMTP id k5CERR4q019291 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 16:27:27 +0200 Received: from [192.168.1.2] (85.1.113.219) by mail16.bluewin.ch (Bluewin 7.3.110.2) id 44867A6D0011B851; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 14:27:26 +0000 Message-ID: <448D79CC.4000507@ieee.org> Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 16:27:24 +0200 From: "J.P. Martin-Flatin" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8.0.4) Gecko/20060516 SeaMonkey/1.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brian Carpenter References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: -1.524 () BAYES_01 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Cc: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Subject: [nmrg] Re: Notes from IESG Retreat held in May X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: "J.P. Martin-Flatin" List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 14:27:29 -0000 Brian, Two comments on item 11 of your IESG retreat notes: 1) Para 1, bullet 3: The current SNMP protocol is based on "pull" not "push". See my IM 1999 paper: http://www.labunix.uqam.ca/%7Ejpmf/papers/im99.pdf 2) Para 4, li 3: "WEBM" -> "WBEM/CIM" JP On 12.06.2006 11:03, Brian Carpenter wrote: > The notes from the recent IESG Retreat, held May 5/6, 2006, can be found at the > following URL: > > http://www.ietf.org/u/ietfchair/Spring06retreatNotes.txt > > Brian Carpenter > IESG Chair Received: from mail21.bluewin.ch (mail21.bluewin.ch [195.186.18.66]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.2) with ESMTP id k5CEJ24q017545 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 16:19:02 +0200 Received: from [192.168.1.2] (85.1.113.219) by mail21.bluewin.ch (Bluewin 7.3.110.2) id 44867DDA00130547 for nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 14:19:02 +0000 Message-ID: <448D77D3.7070706@ieee.org> Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 16:18:59 +0200 From: "J.P. Martin-Flatin" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8.0.4) Gecko/20060516 SeaMonkey/1.0.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: -0.904 () BAYES_30 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Subject: [nmrg] IESG thoughts on network management X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: "J.P. Martin-Flatin" List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 14:19:03 -0000 I suggest you read item 11 at: http://www.ietf.org/u/ietfchair/Spring06retreatNotes.txt JP Received: from hermes.iu-bremen.de (hermes.iu-bremen.de [212.201.44.23]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.2) with ESMTP id k5C7Oe4q018839 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 09:24:40 +0200 Received: from localhost (demetrius.iu-bremen.de [212.201.44.32]) by hermes.iu-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A61D55F77 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 09:24:40 +0200 (CEST) Received: from hermes.iu-bremen.de ([212.201.44.23]) by localhost (demetrius.iu-bremen.de [212.201.44.32]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 01392-03; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 09:24:38 +0200 (CEST) Received: from boskop.local (unknown [10.222.1.1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hermes.iu-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C1B14D454; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 09:24:38 +0200 (CEST) Received: by boskop.local (Postfix, from userid 501) id 81E28747D8F; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 09:24:36 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 09:24:36 +0200 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Message-ID: <20060612072436.GB1761@noname> Mail-Followup-To: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.10i X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new 2.3.3 (20050822) at iu-bremen.de X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: -4.9 () BAYES_00 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Subject: [nmrg] montreal nmrg meeting X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: j.schoenwaelder@iu-bremen.de List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 07:24:41 -0000 Hi, the initial schedule for the IETF week is now online: https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/meeting_agenda_html.cgi?meeting_num=66 The NMRG meeting has been scheduled for Monday 17:40-19:50 (but note that the schedule can still change). /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder International University Bremen P.O. Box 750 561, 28725 Bremen, Germany Received: from wes.hardakers.net (dcn236-43.dcn.davis.ca.us [168.150.236.43]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.2) with ESMTP id k56LG8sv031421 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 23:16:09 +0200 Received: by wes.hardakers.net (Postfix, from userid 274) id 0CA6911D475; Tue, 6 Jun 2006 14:16:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Wes Hardaker To: Aiko Pras Organization: Sparta References: <4472C55D.1040205@utwente.nl> <20060523083346.GA13947@boskop.local> <4472D6DD.1000707@utwente.nl> <20060523103028.GB13947@boskop.local> <4475D22D.20904@utwente.nl> Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 14:16:06 -0700 In-Reply-To: <4475D22D.20904@utwente.nl> (Aiko Pras's message of "Thu, 25 May 2006 17:50:05 +0200") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.110004 (No Gnus v0.4) XEmacs/21.4.19 (linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: -0.001 () BAYES_44 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Cc: "nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de" Subject: [nmrg] Re: Next IRTF-NMRG meeting X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 21:16:10 -0000 >>>>> On Thu, 25 May 2006 17:50:05 +0200, Aiko Pras said: >> I think it would be good to have someone else chair or co-chair the >> meeting to keep us on time and so on. Any volunteers out there? Aiko> Same holds for me. If there are no other volunteers, I can Aiko> co-chair and remind you that time is running out. ;-) If you don't find anyone, I can likely do it barring conflicts with working groups I can't skip for work reasons. -- Wes Hardaker Sparta, Inc.