Received: from hermes.iu-bremen.de (hermes.iu-bremen.de [212.201.44.23]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.2) with ESMTP id k6SCNJTi008155 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2006 14:23:19 +0200 Received: from localhost (demetrius.iu-bremen.de [212.201.44.32]) by hermes.iu-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id D753A55C78 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2006 14:23:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: from hermes.iu-bremen.de ([212.201.44.23]) by localhost (demetrius.iu-bremen.de [212.201.44.32]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 05375-09; Fri, 28 Jul 2006 14:23:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: from boskop.local (unknown [10.50.250.214]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hermes.iu-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3855655C66; Fri, 28 Jul 2006 14:23:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: by boskop.local (Postfix, from userid 501) id 852C17AA941; Fri, 28 Jul 2006 14:23:15 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2006 14:23:15 +0200 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Message-ID: <20060728122315.GA29338@boskop.local> Mail-Followup-To: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="ikeVEW9yuYc//A+q" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.10i X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new 2.3.3 (20050822) at iu-bremen.de X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: -4.9 () BAYES_00 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Subject: [nmrg] workshop on future directions of network and service management research X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: j.schoenwaelder@iu-bremen.de List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2006 12:23:21 -0000 --ikeVEW9yuYc//A+q Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Hi, as mentioned in Montreal, we are working on a workshop organized jointly with the European project EMANICS where we want to identity the network and service management research challenges for the next 5 years. Attached is a draft call for participation. We are particularly interested to bring together people from different backgrounds (industrial, academic, operators). If you have questions, please use this list or contact the organizers. Note, however, that some of us might not be too responsive during the next weeks due to vacations. /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder International University Bremen P.O. Box 750 561, 28725 Bremen, Germany --ikeVEW9yuYc//A+q Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="EMANRG.txt" Joint EMANICS / IRTF-NMRG Workshop on Future Direction of Network and Service Management Research 19-20 October 2006 Hosted by SURFnet Utrecht, The Netherlands Purpose: The area of network and service management research has undergone several changes. While some research topics have matured over the years into their own little areas (e.g. policy-based management or fault management), there are other areas that are more driven by advances in technologies. This includes technologies that need new management approaches but also technologies that can be utilized for more effective management. The purpose of this jointly organized workshop is to bring together researchers, operators, vendors and technology developers to identify promising future directions of network management research. The outcome produced by the workshop should be a description of research directions that is felt worthwhile to explore in a timeframe of the next 5 years. Format: The workshop will be limited to 30 participants. The organizers seek pariticipation from researchers, operators, vendors, and technology developers. Interested parties are invited to write up a short position statement (about one page plain ASCII text) explaining their specific background and how they plan to contribute to the workshop discussions. The deadline for sending position statements is September 15th. If position statements of more than 30 people are received, the organizers will select participants with the goal to achieve a diverse view on the subject and to balance involvement of researchers, operators, vendors, and technology developers. Location: SURFnet, Utrecht, The Netherlands SURFnet (http://www.surfnet.nl/) is the operator of the Dutch research network. SURFnet is located in Utrecht, a city close to the Amsterdam Schiphol international airport (http://www.schiphol.nl/). There is a train running from the airport to Utrecht which takes approximately 30 minutes. Organizers: Aiko Pras (EMANICS Research Activity Leader) Juergen Schoenwaelder (IRTF-NMRG chair) Gabi Dreo (EMANICS Integration Activity Leader) Links: [1] EMANICS: http://www.emanics.org/ [2] IRTF-NMRG: http://www.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de/projects/nmrg/ --ikeVEW9yuYc//A+q-- Received: from hermes.iu-bremen.de (hermes.iu-bremen.de [212.201.44.23]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.2) with ESMTP id k6SBP2Ti031338 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2006 13:25:02 +0200 Received: from localhost (demetrius.iu-bremen.de [212.201.44.32]) by hermes.iu-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7517F4CDFB for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2006 13:25:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: from hermes.iu-bremen.de ([212.201.44.23]) by localhost (demetrius.iu-bremen.de [212.201.44.32]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 00873-10; Fri, 28 Jul 2006 13:24:58 +0200 (CEST) Received: from boskop.local (unknown [10.222.1.2]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hermes.iu-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 778EB4D29C; Fri, 28 Jul 2006 13:24:58 +0200 (CEST) Received: by boskop.local (Postfix, from userid 501) id EAD347AA7FB; Fri, 28 Jul 2006 13:24:56 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2006 13:24:56 +0200 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Message-ID: <20060728112456.GA29124@boskop.local> Mail-Followup-To: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="dDRMvlgZJXvWKvBx" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.10i X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new 2.3.3 (20050822) at iu-bremen.de X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: 0 () X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Subject: [nmrg] minutes of the stockholm meeting X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: j.schoenwaelder@iu-bremen.de List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2006 11:25:04 -0000 --dDRMvlgZJXvWKvBx Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Hi, while posting the Montreal minutes, I figured out that the Stockholm minutes were never posted (my fault - sorry). I have put them online now and I am attaching them for your convenience. /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder International University Bremen P.O. Box 750 561, 28725 Bremen, Germany --dDRMvlgZJXvWKvBx Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="minutes-019.txt" 19th NMRG-Meeting (January 13/14, 2006, KTH Stockholm) ====================================================== Attendees: ---------- 1. Laurent Andrey (LORIA-INRIA, France) 2. Javier Baliosian (Ericsson, Ireland) 3. Kyrre Begnum (University College Oslo, Norway) 4. Mark Burgess (University College Oslo, Norway) 5. Guillaume Doyen (LORIA-INRIA, France) 6. Alberto Gonzalez Prieto (KTH, Sweden) 7. Lisandro Granville (Federal University Rio Grande do Sul, Brazil) 8. Siri Fagernes (University College Oslo, Norway) 9. Olivier Festor (LORIA-INRIA, France) 10. Markus Fiedler (Blekinge Institute of Technology, Sweden) 11. Johan Nielsen (Ericsson, Sweden) 12. Giorgio Nunzi (NEC Europe, Germany) 13. Aiko Pras (University of Twente, The Netherlands) 14. Matthias Schmid (Infosim, Wurzburg, Germany) 15. Jurgen Schonwalder (International University Bremen, Germany) 16. Rolf Stadler (KTH, Sweden) 17. Radu State (LORIA-INRIA, France) 18. Heimir Sverrisson (Reykjavik University, Iceland) 19. Robert Szabo (BUTE, Hungary) 20. Bert Wijnen (Lucent Technologies) 21. Fetahi Wuhib (KTH, Sweden) Agenda: ------- Thursday (2006-01-12) 09:00 Introduction to Promise Theory Mark Burgess (University College Oslo, Norway) 10:30 Coffee Break 11:00 Promises and Game Theory Mark Burgess (University College Oslo, Norway) 12:30 Lunch Break 13:30 Promises and Prototyping Kyrre Begnum (University College Oslo, Norway) 14:00 Discussion 14:30 Example Pervasive Computing Siri Fagernes (University College Oslo, Norway) 15:00 Coffee Break 15:30 Discussion Everybody 19:00 Dinner (details to be announced) Friday (2006-01-13) 09:00 Traditional Approaches to Distributed Management and their Standardization Jurgen Schonwalder (International University Bremen, Germany) 09:30 New Approaches to Achieve Scalability and Robustness Rolf Stadler (KTH, Sweden) 10:30 Coffee Break 11:00 Examples of Scalable Monitoring through Decentralization Real-time Views using Distributed Query Processing Distributed Threshold Detection Distributed Real-time Monitoring with Accuracy Objectives Alberto Gonzalez (KTH, Sweden) Demos at KTH Networking Laboratory Various speakers from KTH 12:30 Lunch Break 13:30 Invited Presentations Distributed Inter-domain Management: Domain Composition Robert Szabo (BUTE, Hungary) Distributed Configuration and Load-Balancing for Wireless Networks Giorgio Nunzi (NEC Europe, Germany) A Self-organizing P2P-based Framework for Distributed Network Management Markus Fiedler (Blekinge Institute of Technology, Sweden) Matthias Schmid (Infosim, Wurzburg, Germany) 15:00 Coffee Break 15:30 Discussion 16:30 Workshop closes Material: --------- The slides presented during the meeting are all available online at . Minutes: -------- The final editing of the minutes was done by Juergen Schoenwaelder based on notes taken by students from Oslo and Stockholm namely Javier Baliosian, Siri Fagernes, and Kyrre Begnum. First Day: Promise Theory (organized by Mark Burgess) ===================================================== 09:10: Meeting opened by Juergen Schoenwaelder and Rolf Stadler - Welcome and administrative issues (roll call, minute takers). - Overview of the local infrastructure. -------- 09:25: Introduction to Promises (Part I) Presented by Mark Burgess - Mark defines policies as a collection of promises. This approach allows to avoid pitfalls of the policy approach (he believes). - Goal is predictability in the sense of a "flexible" form of stability, perhaps it is predictable stability? Need to accept uncertainties that exist in real-world systems. - Mark questions the Event-Condition-Action (ECA) approach, more precisely the time-scale underlying the policy control loop. - Mark introduces basic ideas behind promise theory (combination of graph theory and set theory). - Q: Don't you end up with something that is a hundred promises long? A: ALL promises may not be practical/possible to describe and or promise because it is not all in our powers. Must accept uncertainty! Where do we draw the line for what we accept as good enough? - Q: Are the links physical? A: The links can be of any kind. Logical or physical. This depends on your modeling goal and resolution. Need modeling tools for complex systems! - Q: What about the propagation of promises? A: Implicit promises: some promises might imply other promises. - Q: A different model. A node has a list of services and a access control list. Are we talking about the same thing? A: The situation might be modeled by promise theory. Different classes of uses can be modeled by different promises. - Q: Is there are way to model conditionals in cooperation, or negative promises? A: It should be doable, since it is possible to imagine in the real work. For negative promises, we might see some example of it, but it should be possible. It is true, that it is hard to verify a NOT-promise. - Q: You did analysis with economies. We in the world follow rules. How do you model rules that are almost "obligations" to society? - A: Part of the next talk. - Q: Stability in decentralized systems is a big problem. Promise theory does not give the answer, can not guarantee stability? A: Yes, we can. Game theory explains how. Nobody can predict stability, but we can predict what kind of promises you need for the probability of stability to be high enough. - Q: I do not really see the advantage of how this idea is better than traditional formal methods. A: This theory is not necessarily different from formal modeling. This is a framework that supports several subjects. This is a starting point of philosophy (autonomy). It is not about the graphs or the notation, but the philosophy. Other (formal) methods tend to go too far in their assumptions. - Q: The notion of promise fits better than agreement. What about broken promises? A: Excellent questions. There are methods for this and it is very interesting. -------- 11:05: Econometric Promise Theory Presented by Mark Burgess - Promises have value, in terms of what is received, what it costs to implement etc. - This involves an exchange of trust, so could a promise be exploited? - Asymmetrical relationships are not stable, as nodes then would either exploit others or be exploited. What is the currency of exchange? - Cooperation - bargaining (basis for understanding the probability of cooperative behavior). - Q: Regarding the adjacency matrix. What about the probabilities? How are they arrived and how reliable are they? A: Two ways: 1. Based on the value of the game (payoff matrix). 2. Simply an observational and derivative approach. But, the identification of an important node and promise might enable us to improve the reliability of the other nodes. There is a real challenge in how to arrive at a matrix of probabilities. - Q: You said this had interesting appliances to security. How? A: Identifying vulnerable spots in the network graph. Look for barriers of communication. Where should you invest the most effort? Identifying the weakest link. - Q: In many cases it might be very difficult to assess the structure of the graph? A: This does not solve all your problems, but you could model certain problems. We must accept that we can not predict everything. - Q: Is this not close to data-mining efforts? A: Based on link analysis, pattern recognition etc. - Q: What is trust? A: Trust is the probability you perceive that the promise will be kept (experience is the rate that promises have been kept in the past). - Q: Promise is a strategic object? A: No, its a local object which may be the same for all the nodes if they pledge allegiance to the same thing. Common goals are an important basis for cooperation. -------- 13:35: Reflection on Promise Theory using Prototyping Presented by Kyrre Begnum - Motivation: How can we investigate / prove certain properties of the theory? How can we identify any hidden assumptions? - Using Maude, a language for executable formal specifications. - Q: Which part of this initiates the interaction/promise? A: This is not covered by promise theory, should be implemented elsewhere. It probably does not matter how the negotiation starts. - Q: How long does it take to evaluate a configuration? A: First it has to be terminating and if you search the whole space it might take quite some time since the search complexity is exponential. - Q: Do you not run into the same problems as other formal approaches? A: It seems that proving Needham-Schroeder is already something difficult to do without specific optimizations. - Q: Would narrowing help? A: Mark says the purpose of the exercise is to verify some simple examples and then go back to heuristics to address more complex promise graphs. -------- 14:15: A Smart Mall Scenario Using Promise Theory Presented by Siri Fagernes - Outcome is very sensitive to the chosen metrics and values - Analysis shows that not only policy that you decide yourself is important but also the emerging behavior of the system. - Q: The adjacency matrix of probabilities has values > 1. Why? A: This one is a sum of all probabilities to all promises. Second Day: Distributed Management (organized by Rolf Stadler) ============================================================== 09:00: Traditional Approaches to Distributed Management and their Standardization Presentation by Juergen Schoenwaelder - Juergen present a classification of management paradigms and presented some approaches. - On Active Networks Juergen stated that they are of academic interest but not practical, Rolf disagreed in the case of bounded and well defined applications. - On Remote Operations MIBs, Juergen added that they are being extended and that they have proven useful for operators. - Rolf asked if Expression MIBs are management by delegation. Answer: no, there is a specific section in the slides for this. - On Smart Agents, Juergen states that it is a great standardization failure because nobody is using it. - Discussion on point 1 of Next Steps in Distributed Management: Olivier says that GRID people believe that there are no resources available for management in the nodes. Rolf says that Cisco says that there would be resources but constrained. Aiko: there is no willingness to give resources for management, but if you have a good use case would be. Juergen: Is not a technical problem, it is economical. Bert: the people that have the knowledge don't have the time. - Markus Fielder asked about which approach is RMON MIB. RMON is Approach #0 because local instrumentation of nodes. Rolf stated that RMON is Distributed Monitoring but restricted to a given media not to a whole distributed system. -------- 09:30: New Approaches to Achieve Scalability and Robustness Presentation by Rolf Stadler - Reference papers at http://www.ee.kth.se/~stadler/nmrg/ - Rolf speaks about today's networks, they are not one service oriented and are becoming less robust and scalable in terms of management. He speaks about distributed management, the reasons of its failure until now and a new p2p-like approach by KTH (Weaver devices). Mark says that the idea is close to cfengine and speaks about behavior learning on the higher layers. - Rolf speaks about DHT for routing of management messages but wonders if an epidemic approach may be cheaper. - Mark have a paper on sampling techniques. Telenor is interested on epidemic approaches. - Juergen asks if you can do arbitrary function processing with the echo algorithm or whether you can only do things like max min average etc. Rolf replies that you CAN do arbitrary queries. -------- 11:00: Weaver Query System and Weaver Query Language Demos by Alberto Gonzalez Prieto - Alberto shows a demo on Weaver Query System and Weaver Query Language: There is no knowledge on how this would work on a gigabit network with heavy traffic. - Bert Wijnen points that the serial CLI interface used would be too slow in this case. -------- 11:30: Distributed Real-time Monitoring with Accuracy Objectives Presentation by Alberto Gonzalez Prieto - Alberto presents A-GAP, a distributed, asynchronous protocol for monitoring (reference paper at http://www.ee.kth.se/~stadler/nmrg/AGAP-KTHTR-2005.pdf). - Aiko will provide traces of real traffic to give real usage case. The error estimation changes with the dynamics of the network (come and go of nodes and reorganizations). - Rolf did not find literature on accuracy of aggregate monitoring. Markus has some work on that, he will send it to Rolf. -------- 13:30: Decentralized Computation of Threshold Crossing Alerts Presentation by by Fetahi Wuhib - Fetahi presents a decentralized algorithm to compute threshold crossing alerts. The talk is based on a paper published at DSOM 2005: http://www.ee.kth.se/~stadler/nmrg/TCAGAP-DSOM2005.pdf - Fetahi presents TCA-GAP a GAP-based protocol for scalable monitoring of threshold crossing alerts on aggregated parameters. - The presentation uses SUM as an example and Javier asks about other aggregations. Rolf answer that there exists an algebra to specify how distributed thresholds are computed for any aggregation. - Rolf adds that there is theoretical ways to compute how long a spike in the measured parameter should be for allowing the system to detect this variation. - Fetahi made a demo of the TCA-GAP protocol using KTH's testbed. -------- 14:00: Distributed Inter-domain Management: Domain Composition Presentation by Robert Szabo - Robert presents shortly the Ambient Networks project and its P2P approach and the work on domain composition they are carrying out. - They are the only ones working on domain composition in the Ambient Networks project. -------- 14:30: Distributed Configuration and Load-Balancing for Wireless Networks Presentation by Giorgio Nunzi - Giorgio presents work from NEC on self-configuring access points, load balancing and monitoring of self-configuring devices. - Synchronization between APs is a very important issue. - Giorgio shows convergence time for bootstrap and spread time of new global information based on simulations. - They use versioning for information distribution to avoid loops. - Discussion about why not solve the problem by over-provisioning due the low price of APs. -------- 15:00: A Self-organizing P2P-based Framework for Distributed Network Management Presentation by Markus Fiedler - Markus presents AutoMon, a system for self-organized QoS monitoring. - P2P network for connecting DNAs (Distributed Network Agents). - They use Kademlia as location protocol. - Matthias Schmid made a demo on AutoMon. --dDRMvlgZJXvWKvBx-- Received: from hermes.iu-bremen.de (hermes.iu-bremen.de [212.201.44.23]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.2) with ESMTP id k6SBIWTi029877 for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2006 13:18:32 +0200 Received: from localhost (demetrius.iu-bremen.de [212.201.44.32]) by hermes.iu-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7B8955D8A for ; Fri, 28 Jul 2006 13:18:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: from hermes.iu-bremen.de ([212.201.44.23]) by localhost (demetrius.iu-bremen.de [212.201.44.32]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 00522-04; Fri, 28 Jul 2006 13:18:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: from boskop.local (unknown [10.222.1.2]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hermes.iu-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BDD155D46; Fri, 28 Jul 2006 13:18:29 +0200 (CEST) Received: by boskop.local (Postfix, from userid 501) id 8B57C7AA760; Fri, 28 Jul 2006 13:18:22 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2006 13:18:22 +0200 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Message-ID: <20060728111822.GA29046@boskop.local> Mail-Followup-To: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="dDRMvlgZJXvWKvBx" Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.10i X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new 2.3.3 (20050822) at iu-bremen.de X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: -4.9 () BAYES_00 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Subject: [nmrg] minutes of the montreal meeting X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: j.schoenwaelder@iu-bremen.de List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2006 11:18:34 -0000 --dDRMvlgZJXvWKvBx Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Hi, attached please find the minutes of the 20th NMRG meeting in Montreal. I have also updated the web page. Thanks to Olivier Festor for taking notes and providing the draft minutes. /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder International University Bremen P.O. Box 750 561, 28725 Bremen, Germany --dDRMvlgZJXvWKvBx Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="minutes-020.txt" Minutes of the 20th NMRG meeting IETF 66, Montreal, Canada 10 July 2006 Minutes: Olivier Festor Participants: The meeting was attended by about 40 people. The names were recorded on the rooster which went to the IETF secretariat. Agenda: 17:40 Administrivia Chair(s) 17:45 NMRG Status Report '2006 Juergen Schoenwaelder 18:00 SNMP Traffic Measurements Overview Juergen Schoenwaelder 18:20 Initial Results Juergen Schoenwaelder 18:40 Discussion of Measurement Activities Everybody 19:20 Future Work Everybody 19:40 Wrapup Chair(s) ======================================================================= Two presentations were given by Juergen Schoenwaelder (see slides on the NMRG web site). - Presentation #1 : NMRG Status Report '2006 - Presentation #2 : SNMP Traffic Measurements The presentation received a lot of very positive feedback (one participant stated work is exiting since it is the first time people try to understand how to improve management) and raised many fruitful discussions. The first set of questions that were issued by the participants was around the motivation for collecting such data and what the end goal of such work would be (return on investment). The response was that the specific usage of the results was beyond the scope of the initial initiative which goal was to find out what is happening not why. However, standardization bodies might use the results to revisit their standards, academics can use them to build meaningful models, implementors and operators might use them to improve their implementations. An issue was raised on the accuracy of the measurement if it is done only at the central management station interface. By sniffing at the management station only, one might loose data of management activity going on elsewhere (e.g. through laptops). Specific questions and comments raised: Q: What is the outcome of the analysis on indexing types? A: The big winners are integers (based on the MIB analysis). Q: Did you investigate the use of the data collection to do SNMP fingerprinting ? A: This was not the scope of the work. Q: How hard was it to get traces? What is the "acceptance" percentage? A: Quite surprisingly, it was not that difficult. It is crucial to establish a trust relationship to operators. Doing this work through the NMRG helps and having the goals documented as an Internet-Draft helps. Collaboration of researchers who all have some connections to operators helps. Many discussions took place on the SNMP message sizes, versions and operations measured in the traces. It was noted that more traces need to be analyzed to have a more complete picture. Recommendations: - Measure the usage and impact of security. - To make sure that the collected data is useful for analysis it should be complemented with a questionnaire to be filled by the organization where the traces are collected to see what operators are looking at and how important management is or whether any special events took place. - A web site should be available to help promoting the capture of traces and attract operators. The Internet-Draft is exactly designed for this purpose. - It would be great to get also traces on more configuration oriented operations (e.g., CLI ?). Having the data on the configuration space, would bring a lot of input to the community as well. - It would be interesting to identify signatures or behavioral patterns. For example, it might be useful to identify applications which do the same data collection and propose some optimization. ======================================================================= It was suggested to co-organize a workshop in October 2006 located somewhere in Europe before/during/after the MANWEEK in Dublin to identify fundamental research challenges in network and service management research. This workshop would be co-organized with the European 6th Framework Network of Excellence on the Management of the Internet and Complex Services (EMANICS) (). --dDRMvlgZJXvWKvBx-- Received: from hermes.iu-bremen.de (hermes.iu-bremen.de [212.201.44.23]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.2) with ESMTP id k6AKH5jP026852 for ; Mon, 10 Jul 2006 22:17:05 +0200 Received: from localhost (demetrius.iu-bremen.de [212.201.44.32]) by hermes.iu-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BF0E53C88 for ; Mon, 10 Jul 2006 22:17:05 +0200 (CEST) Received: from hermes.iu-bremen.de ([212.201.44.23]) by localhost (demetrius.iu-bremen.de [212.201.44.32]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 10416-10; Mon, 10 Jul 2006 22:17:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: from h0db4-net84db.lab.risq.net (unknown [10.222.1.2]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hermes.iu-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBCCE4D3EA; Mon, 10 Jul 2006 22:17:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: by h0db4-net84db.lab.risq.net (Postfix, from userid 501) id 9C295787EC2; Mon, 10 Jul 2006 22:17:00 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2006 22:17:00 +0200 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Message-ID: <20060710201700.GA1235@h0db4-net84db.lab.risq.net> Mail-Followup-To: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.10i X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new 2.3.3 (20050822) at iu-bremen.de X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: -4.9 () BAYES_00 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Subject: [nmrg] meeting slides and multimedia details X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: j.schoenwaelder@iu-bremen.de List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2006 20:17:07 -0000 Hi, I have updated the meeting web page. The slides I have prepared are not online. I also added links to the jabber room and the audio live stream as well as the pointer to the archive where the recording might end up. /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder International University Bremen P.O. Box 750 561, 28725 Bremen, Germany Received: from rwcrmhc15.comcast.net (rwcrmhc15.comcast.net [204.127.192.85]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.2) with ESMTP id k65DETw7001560 for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2006 15:14:29 +0200 Received: from harrington73653 (c-24-128-147-200.hsd1.nh.comcast.net[24.128.147.200]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc15) with SMTP id <20060705131427m1500dg6nke>; Wed, 5 Jul 2006 13:14:28 +0000 From: "David B Harrington" To: Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 09:13:13 -0400 Message-ID: <001801c6a034$c66c55d0$0400a8c0@china.huawei.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Thread-index: AcagM+tp8/+JvsEdSQmlqtZR1DC2CgAADxhw X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: 0.1 () BIZ_TLD X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Cc: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de Subject: [nmrg] FW: Jabber rooms for ietf X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2006 13:14:31 -0000 FYI. -----Original Message----- From: John P Pope Jr [mailto:john.pope@neustar.biz] Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 9:05 AM To: David B Harrington Subject: Re: Jabber rooms for ietf David, Yes, there is already a jabber conference room for the nmrg group. I just signed into it to make sure it is operating correctly. Once you log your jabber client into some server (your own, "jabber.org", or some other public server), you can join the ietf conference server by putting "jabber.ietf.org" in as the room server name and "nmrg" as the room name. No passwords are required for joining the rooms. All room traffic is automatically logged and will be available on the www.ietf.org/meetings/ietf-logs web page. The daily traffic (if any) will show up on the respective room link, then by date link. The log is updated approximately every 10-15 minutes. Let me know if I can be of further help. Regards, John Pope On Tue, 2006-07-04 at 21:54 -0400, David B Harrington wrote: > Hi, > > The NMRG, a WG of the IRTF, is meeting at IETF66. Will/Can a room be > created for nmrg? > I am chairing the meeting, and would like to know jabber will be > available. > > Thanks, > David Harrington > dharrington@huawei.com > dbharrington@comcast.net > ietfdbh@comcast.net > Received: from hermes.iu-bremen.de (hermes.iu-bremen.de [212.201.44.23]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.2) with ESMTP id k656vAQW017742 for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2006 08:57:10 +0200 Received: from localhost (demetrius.iu-bremen.de [212.201.44.32]) by hermes.iu-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81C1D55FBB; Wed, 5 Jul 2006 08:57:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: from hermes.iu-bremen.de ([212.201.44.23]) by localhost (demetrius.iu-bremen.de [212.201.44.32]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 19451-04; Wed, 5 Jul 2006 08:57:08 +0200 (CEST) Received: from boskop.local (unknown [10.50.250.214]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hermes.iu-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21D0B55F99; Wed, 5 Jul 2006 08:57:08 +0200 (CEST) Received: by boskop.local (Postfix, from userid 501) id 25421780B6D; Wed, 5 Jul 2006 08:57:06 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 08:57:06 +0200 From: Juergen Schoenwaelder To: David B Harrington Subject: Re: [nmrg] Text conferencing Message-ID: <20060705065706.GB7790@boskop.local> Mail-Followup-To: David B Harrington , NMRG References: <0eea01c69fd6$05cf5790$0400a8c0@china.huawei.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <0eea01c69fd6$05cf5790$0400a8c0@china.huawei.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.10i X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new 2.3.3 (20050822) at iu-bremen.de X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: -4.9 () BAYES_00 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Cc: NMRG X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: j.schoenwaelder@iu-bremen.de List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2006 06:57:11 -0000 On Tue, Jul 04, 2006 at 09:54:57PM -0400, David B Harrington wrote: > Some of the members of the NMRG list do not follow IETF meetings, so > here is some info for you, if you want to follow the NMRG session > using jabber. > > Go to http://www.ietf.org/meetings/text_conf.html for instructions. > > I have not successfully connected yet. My exodus client claims the > rooms have been destroyed. I am probably doing something wrong. I actually not sure whether IRTF groups will be located under rooms.jabber.ietf.org - we once had them located at irtf.xmpp.org (where previously also the IRTF groups were located). http://www.xmpp.org/irtf-chat.html As of now, neither the IETF nor the IRTF rooms are accessible from here although I can talk to the server. Perhaps this will all clear up once we are in Montreal. If not, I should be able to provide jabber service using our own server. /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder International University Bremen P.O. Box 750 561, 28725 Bremen, Germany Received: from rwcrmhc11.comcast.net (rwcrmhc11.comcast.net [204.127.192.81]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.2) with ESMTP id k651uEQW021768 for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2006 03:56:14 +0200 Received: from harrington73653 (c-24-128-147-200.hsd1.nh.comcast.net[24.128.147.200]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc11) with SMTP id <20060705015612m1100ara62e>; Wed, 5 Jul 2006 01:56:13 +0000 From: "David B Harrington" To: "NMRG" Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2006 21:54:57 -0400 Message-ID: <0eea01c69fd6$05cf5790$0400a8c0@china.huawei.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Thread-index: Acaf1ZfUbAEwBHDGSny7Ndmiej1S5w== X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: 2.101 (**) BAYES_90 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Subject: [nmrg] Text conferencing X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2006 01:56:16 -0000 Hi, Some of the members of the NMRG list do not follow IETF meetings, so here is some info for you, if you want to follow the NMRG session using jabber. Go to http://www.ietf.org/meetings/text_conf.html for instructions. I have not successfully connected yet. My exodus client claims the rooms have been destroyed. I am probably doing something wrong. David Harrington dharrington@huawei.com dbharrington@comcast.net ietfdbh@comcast.net Received: from rwcrmhc14.comcast.net (rwcrmhc14.comcast.net [216.148.227.154]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.2) with ESMTP id k651FEQW018578 for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2006 03:15:14 +0200 Received: from harrington73653 (c-24-128-147-200.hsd1.nh.comcast.net[24.128.147.200]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc14) with SMTP id <20060705011512m1400nrcb3e>; Wed, 5 Jul 2006 01:15:13 +0000 From: "David B Harrington" To: "NMRG" Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2006 21:13:58 -0400 Message-ID: <0ee201c69fd0$4b99ea70$0400a8c0@china.huawei.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Thread-index: Acafz7DqmbPDPtGHTpqjOyqpqDR8RQ== X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: 0.001 () BAYES_50 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Subject: [nmrg] Streaming audio X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2006 01:15:16 -0000 Hi, Some of the members of the NMRG list do not follow IETF meetings, so here is some info for you, if you want to follow the NMRG session using streaming audio. The University of Oregon provides this service, but their user interface is lacking, so this note is designed to help you get past the poor user interface. The IETF tools team is planning to improve the user interface, but this may not happen prior to IETF66. The streaming audio of the IETF66 sessions (including the NMRG sessions) will be found here: http://videolab.uoregon.edu/events/ietf/ietf66.html. However, the playlist links on the web page for IETF66 point to the live streams, which are not yet live, so you'll get errors if you try to play them. For practice, here is how to use the archives for IETF65. Look at the schedule at http://videolab.uoregon.edu/events/ietf/ietf65.html to determine which channels correspond to which room, and to determine which WG met in which session. The links to the playlist for IETF65 are to the live sessions, which are no longer live. But the links to the archives at the bottom of the page work. The media files are named inconsistently, but in general, find "ch#" in the name to find the channel corresponding to the room. They have multiple recordings per day that do not correspond accurately to the number of sessions, so you have to search a bit in the files to find the session you want. They usually are in order, starting with xxx.mp3.0 or just xxxx.mp3. Be warned that when you listen to the files, the recordings start before the meetings start, so you might experience a few minutes (up to an hour) of nothing before the voices start. Many of the meetings do not do a good job of enforcing microphone etiquette, so they do not anounce what meeting is starting, and speakers may or may not use the mikes. We will try to use good etiquette in the NMRG session. If you are using the archives instead of the live recordings, you can advance into the cached recording using the features of your MP3 players. For many remote people, reviewing the archives after the session completes, and being able to replay sections of interest, may be adequate or even preferred. David Harrington dharrington@huawei.com dbharrington@comcast.net ietfdbh@comcast.net Received: from rwcrmhc12.comcast.net (rwcrmhc12.comcast.net [204.127.192.82]) by agitator.ibr.cs.tu-bs.de (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-7.2) with ESMTP id k650XrQW015332 for ; Wed, 5 Jul 2006 02:33:54 +0200 Received: from harrington73653 (c-24-128-147-200.hsd1.nh.comcast.net[24.128.147.200]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc12) with SMTP id <20060705003351m120066rcoe>; Wed, 5 Jul 2006 00:33:52 +0000 From: "David B Harrington" To: Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2006 20:32:37 -0400 Message-ID: <0ee101c69fca$84dffdc0$0400a8c0@china.huawei.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Thread-index: AcafykSwVylE6taCSnum3JjT1b9fLQ== X-IBRFilter-SpamReport: 0.001 () BAYES_50 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.24 (www . roaringpenguin . com / mimedefang) Subject: [nmrg] volunteers X-BeenThere: nmrg@ibr.cs.tu-bs.de X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: Network Management Research Group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2006 00:33:55 -0000 Hi, This is a request for volunteers to take minutes and to act as jabber scribe(s) during the NMRG meeting next week. I will be chairing, watching the agenda, trying to enforce good mike etiquette, and so on. The session will be recorded and archived using streaming audio, and there will be a jabber session (assuming good connectivity, etc.) Minute-taking: One minute-taker should try to capture the main flow of the discussions, in case the streaming audio archive fails. A backup minute-taker can focus on just a summary of the salient points. We will review the streaming audio and the minutes and generate an official version. Jabber scribing: If streaming audio does not work, or one or more remote particpants do not have access to streaming audio (we'll ask), we will want a jabber scribe to type in the flow of the discussion, so remote persons with only a jabber connection can follow what is being discussed. If streaming audio is available to all remote participants, then the main purpose of the jabber scribe will be to relay info not always apparent via streaming audio, and for later correlation, such as which slide is being shown, who is speaking at the mike, what somebody said when they did not speak clearly into the mike, etc. One person should also serve to answer questions (e.g., who just spoke?) or relay questions from jabber participants to the room, and act as a relay for jabber comments to the meeting - somebody to go to the mike to relay remote comments. (I will also monitor the jabber myself, and may relay some of the comments, but I want to avoid being distracted from chairing by having to type in answers, and so on.) If you are unable to attend in person, but plan to listen to the streaming audio and jabber, you can volunteer as a backup minutes-taker or jabber scribe. Thanks, David Harrington dharrington@huawei.com dbharrington@comcast.net ietfdbh@comcast.net