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To: "Panic@ietf.org" <Panic@ietf.org>
From: Robert Moskowitz <rgm-sec@htt-consult.com>
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Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2017 09:51:27 +0200
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Subject: [Panic] Any time to PANIC this week?
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:)


Bob


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From: "Waltermire, David A. (Fed)" <david.waltermire@nist.gov>
To: Robert Moskowitz <rgm-sec@htt-consult.com>, "Panic@ietf.org" <Panic@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Panic] Any time to PANIC this week?
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Subject: Re: [Panic] Any time to PANIC this week?
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We had a time that conflicts with the social event, so we will not be able =
to meet this time. We will need to move things forward with list conversati=
ons for now. I plan to send some emails soon to that end.

Regards,
Dave

-------- Original Message --------
From: Panic <panic-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Robert Moskowitz <rgm-sec=
@htt-consult.com>
Date: Tue, July 18, 2017 9:52 AM +0200
To: Panic@ietf.org
Subject: [Panic] Any time to PANIC this week?

:)


Bob

_______________________________________________
Panic mailing list
Panic@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/panic

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<div>We had a time that conflicts with the social event, so we will not be =
able to meet this time. We will need to move things forward with list conve=
rsations for now. I plan to send some emails soon to that end.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Dave<br>
<br>
-------- Original Message --------<br>
From: Panic &lt;panic-bounces@ietf.org&gt; on behalf of Robert Moskowitz &l=
t;rgm-sec@htt-consult.com&gt;<br>
Date: Tue, July 18, 2017 9:52 AM &#43;0200<br>
To: Panic@ietf.org<br>
Subject: [Panic] Any time to PANIC this week?<br>
<br>
</div>
<font size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;">
<div class=3D"PlainText">:)<br>
<br>
<br>
Bob<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Panic mailing list<br>
Panic@ietf.org<br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/panic">https://www.ietf.or=
g/mailman/listinfo/panic</a><br>
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From nobody Tue Jul 18 02:18:35 2017
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From: "Diego R. Lopez" <diego.r.lopez@telefonica.com>
To: "Waltermire, David A. (Fed)" <david.waltermire@nist.gov>
CC: Robert Moskowitz <rgm-sec@htt-consult.com>, "Panic@ietf.org" <Panic@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Panic] Any time to PANIC this week?
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/panic/djFgb4qnFowKuXja_w4eHAd_A10>
Subject: Re: [Panic] Any time to PANIC this week?
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From: "Waltermire, David A. (Fed)" <david.waltermire@nist.gov>
To: "Diego R. Lopez" <diego.r.lopez@telefonica.com>
CC: "Panic@ietf.org" <Panic@ietf.org>, Robert Moskowitz <rgm-sec@htt-consult.com>
Thread-Topic: [Panic] Any time to PANIC this week?
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/panic/OyBt81gEMvXk0zWCQ_DdFyxdUjI>
Subject: Re: [Panic] Any time to PANIC this week?
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Sounds good to me. I am always up for talking about PANIC.

Dave

-------- Original Message --------
From: Panic <panic-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of "Diego R. Lopez" <diego.r=
.lopez@telefonica.com>
Date: Tue, July 18, 2017 11:18 AM +0200
To: "Waltermire, David A. (Fed)" <david.waltermire@nist.gov>
CC: Panic@ietf.org, Robert Moskowitz <rgm-sec@htt-consult.com>
Subject: Re: [Panic] Any time to PANIC this week?

Well, we can look for one another during the social. As far as I can recall=
, the first PANIC gathering took place with some beers around, and we could=
 continue the tradition=85

If not, the list will be always there.

Be goode,

On 18 Jul 2017, at 09:58 , Waltermire, David A. (Fed) <david.waltermire@nis=
t.gov<mailto:david.waltermire@nist.gov>> wrote:

We had a time that conflicts with the social event, so we will not be able =
to meet this time. We will need to move things forward with list conversati=
ons for now. I plan to send some emails soon to that end.

Regards,
Dave

-------- Original Message --------
From: Panic <panic-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:panic-bounces@ietf.org>> on beha=
lf of Robert Moskowitz <rgm-sec@htt-consult.com<mailto:rgm-sec@htt-consult.=
com>>
Date: Tue, July 18, 2017 9:52 AM +0200
To: Panic@ietf.org<mailto:Panic@ietf.org>
Subject: [Panic] Any time to PANIC this week?

:)


Bob

_______________________________________________
Panic mailing list
Panic@ietf.org<mailto:Panic@ietf.org>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/panic
_______________________________________________
Panic mailing list
Panic@ietf.org<mailto:Panic@ietf.org>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/panic

--
"Esta vez no fallaremos, Doctor Infierno"

Dr Diego R. Lopez
Telefonica I+D
http://people.tid.es/diego.lopez/

e-mail: diego.r.lopez@telefonica.com
Tel:    +34 913 129 041
Mobile: +34 682 051 091
----------------------------------


________________________________

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--_000_66iyqafh5onbcxyr69odx3kp1500378106351emailandroidcom_
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Sounds good to me. I am always up for talking about PANIC.<br>
<br>
Dave<br>
<br>
-------- Original Message --------<br>
From: Panic &lt;panic-bounces@ietf.org&gt; on behalf of &quot;Diego R. Lope=
z&quot; &lt;diego.r.lopez@telefonica.com&gt;<br>
Date: Tue, July 18, 2017 11:18 AM &#43;0200<br>
To: &quot;Waltermire, David A. (Fed)&quot; &lt;david.waltermire@nist.gov&gt=
;<br>
CC: Panic@ietf.org, Robert Moskowitz &lt;rgm-sec@htt-consult.com&gt;<br>
Subject: Re: [Panic] Any time to PANIC this week?<br>
<br>
<div>Well, we can look for one another during the social. As far as I can r=
ecall, the first PANIC gathering took place with some beers around, and we =
could continue the tradition=85
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">If not, the list will be always there.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">Be goode,</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
<div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">On 18 Jul 2017, at 09:58 , Waltermire, David A. (Fed) &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:david.waltermire@nist.gov" class=3D"">david.waltermire@nis=
t.gov</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"" style=3D"font-family:LucidaGrande; font-size:11px; font-sty=
le:normal; font-variant:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; =
line-height:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-t=
ransform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px">
We had a time that conflicts with the social event, so we will not be able =
to meet this time. We will need to move things forward with list conversati=
ons for now. I plan to send some emails soon to that end.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Regards,<br class=3D"">
Dave<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
-------- Original Message --------<br class=3D"">
From: Panic &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:panic-bounces@ietf.org" class=3D"">panic-=
bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Robert Moskowitz &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:rgm-sec@htt-consult.com" class=3D"">rgm-sec@htt-consult.com</a>&gt;<br cl=
ass=3D"">
Date: Tue, July 18, 2017 9:52 AM &#43;0200<br class=3D"">
To: <a href=3D"mailto:Panic@ietf.org" class=3D"">Panic@ietf.org</a><br clas=
s=3D"">
Subject: [Panic] Any time to PANIC this week?<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
</div>
<font size=3D"2" class=3D"" style=3D"font-family:LucidaGrande; font-style:n=
ormal; font-variant:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; line=
-height:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-trans=
form:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px"><span class=
=3D"" style=3D"font-size:10pt">
<div class=3D"PlainText">:)<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Bob<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">
Panic mailing list<br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"mailto:Panic@ietf.org" class=3D"">Panic@ietf.org</a><br class=3D=
"">
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/panic" class=3D"">https://=
www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/panic</a><br class=3D"">
</div>
</span></font><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-family:LucidaGrande; font-size=
:11px; font-style:normal; font-variant:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-s=
pacing:normal; line-height:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-ind=
ent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing=
:0px; float:none; display:inline!important">_______________________________=
________________</span><br class=3D"" style=3D"font-family:LucidaGrande; fo=
nt-size:11px; font-style:normal; font-variant:normal; font-weight:normal; l=
etter-spacing:normal; line-height:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; t=
ext-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-=
spacing:0px">
<span class=3D"" style=3D"font-family:LucidaGrande; font-size:11px; font-st=
yle:normal; font-variant:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal;=
 line-height:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-=
transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px; float:no=
ne; display:inline!important">Panic
 mailing list</span><br class=3D"" style=3D"font-family:LucidaGrande; font-=
size:11px; font-style:normal; font-variant:normal; font-weight:normal; lett=
er-spacing:normal; line-height:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text=
-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spa=
cing:0px">
<a href=3D"mailto:Panic@ietf.org" class=3D"" style=3D"font-family:LucidaGra=
nde; font-size:11px; font-style:normal; font-variant:normal; font-weight:no=
rmal; letter-spacing:normal; line-height:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:s=
tart; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto=
; word-spacing:0px">Panic@ietf.org</a><br class=3D"" style=3D"font-family:L=
ucidaGrande; font-size:11px; font-style:normal; font-variant:normal; font-w=
eight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; line-height:normal; orphans:auto; text=
-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; wid=
ows:auto; word-spacing:0px">
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/panic" class=3D"" style=3D=
"font-family:LucidaGrande; font-size:11px; font-style:normal; font-variant:=
normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; line-height:normal; orph=
ans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-spa=
ce:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/list=
info/panic</a></div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0); letter-spacing:normal; orphans:a=
uto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:no=
rmal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px; word-wrap:break-word">
--<br class=3D"">
&quot;Esta vez no fallaremos, Doctor Infierno&quot;<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Dr Diego R. Lopez<br class=3D"">
Telefonica I&#43;D<br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"http://people.tid.es/diego.lopez/" class=3D"">http://people.tid.=
es/diego.lopez/</a><br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
e-mail: diego.r.lopez@telefonica.com<br class=3D"">
Tel: &nbsp; &nbsp;&#43;34 913 129 041<br class=3D"">
Mobile: &#43;34 682 051 091<br class=3D"">
----------------------------------</div>
</div>
<br class=3D"">
</div>
<br>
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From: "Diego R. Lopez" <diego.r.lopez@telefonica.com>
To: "Waltermire, David A. (Fed)" <david.waltermire@nist.gov>
CC: "Panic@ietf.org" <Panic@ietf.org>, Robert Moskowitz <rgm-sec@htt-consult.com>
Thread-Topic: [Panic] Any time to PANIC this week?
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Subject: Re: [Panic] Any time to PANIC this week?
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Good! Just in case you don=92t remember me, I am a reasonably tall guy (~1.=
90 m, a little bit less than 6 feet) with grey hair and glasses, wearing a =
white-and-blue aloha shirt=85

On 18 Jul 2017, at 13:41 , Waltermire, David A. (Fed) <david.waltermire@nis=
t.gov<mailto:david.waltermire@nist.gov>> wrote:

Sounds good to me. I am always up for talking about PANIC.

Dave

-------- Original Message --------
From: Panic <panic-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:panic-bounces@ietf.org>> on beha=
lf of "Diego R. Lopez" <diego.r.lopez@telefonica.com<mailto:diego.r.lopez@t=
elefonica.com>>
Date: Tue, July 18, 2017 11:18 AM +0200
To: "Waltermire, David A. (Fed)" <david.waltermire@nist.gov<mailto:david.wa=
ltermire@nist.gov>>
CC: Panic@ietf.org<mailto:Panic@ietf.org>, Robert Moskowitz <rgm-sec@htt-co=
nsult.com<mailto:rgm-sec@htt-consult.com>>
Subject: Re: [Panic] Any time to PANIC this week?

Well, we can look for one another during the social. As far as I can recall=
, the first PANIC gathering took place with some beers around, and we could=
 continue the tradition=85

If not, the list will be always there.

Be goode,

On 18 Jul 2017, at 09:58 , Waltermire, David A. (Fed) <david.waltermire@nis=
t.gov<mailto:david.waltermire@nist.gov>> wrote:

We had a time that conflicts with the social event, so we will not be able =
to meet this time. We will need to move things forward with list conversati=
ons for now. I plan to send some emails soon to that end.

Regards,
Dave

-------- Original Message --------
From: Panic <panic-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:panic-bounces@ietf.org>> on beha=
lf of Robert Moskowitz <rgm-sec@htt-consult.com<mailto:rgm-sec@htt-consult.=
com>>
Date: Tue, July 18, 2017 9:52 AM +0200
To: Panic@ietf.org<mailto:Panic@ietf.org>
Subject: [Panic] Any time to PANIC this week?

:)


Bob

_______________________________________________
Panic mailing list
Panic@ietf.org<mailto:Panic@ietf.org>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/panic
_______________________________________________
Panic mailing list
Panic@ietf.org<mailto:Panic@ietf.org>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/panic

--
"Esta vez no fallaremos, Doctor Infierno"

Dr Diego R. Lopez
Telefonica I+D
http://people.tid.es/diego.lopez/

e-mail: diego.r.lopez@telefonica.com<mailto:diego.r.lopez@telefonica.com>
Tel:    +34 913 129 041
Mobile: +34 682 051 091
----------------------------------


________________________________

Este mensaje y sus adjuntos se dirigen exclusivamente a su destinatario, pu=
ede contener informaci=F3n privilegiada o confidencial y es para uso exclus=
ivo de la persona o entidad de destino. Si no es usted. el destinatario ind=
icado, queda notificado de que la lectura, utilizaci=F3n, divulgaci=F3n y/o=
 copia sin autorizaci=F3n puede estar prohibida en virtud de la legislaci=
=F3n vigente. Si ha recibido este mensaje por error, le rogamos que nos lo =
comunique inmediatamente por esta misma v=EDa y proceda a su destrucci=F3n.

The information contained in this transmission is privileged and confidenti=
al information intended only for the use of the individual or entity named =
above. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are=
 hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this co=
mmunication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission =
in error, do not read it. Please immediately reply to the sender that you h=
ave received this communication in error and then delete it.

Esta mensagem e seus anexos se dirigem exclusivamente ao seu destinat=E1rio=
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tinat=E1rio indicado, fica notificado de que a leitura, utiliza=E7=E3o, div=
ulga=E7=E3o e/ou c=F3pia sem autoriza=E7=E3o pode estar proibida em virtude=
 da legisla=E7=E3o vigente. Se recebeu esta mensagem por erro, rogamos-lhe =
que nos o comunique imediatamente por esta mesma via e proceda a sua destru=
i=E7=E3o
_______________________________________________
Panic mailing list
Panic@ietf.org<mailto:Panic@ietf.org>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/panic

--
"Esta vez no fallaremos, Doctor Infierno"

Dr Diego R. Lopez
Telefonica I+D
http://people.tid.es/diego.lopez/

e-mail: diego.r.lopez@telefonica.com
Tel:    +34 913 129 041
Mobile: +34 682 051 091
----------------------------------


________________________________

Este mensaje y sus adjuntos se dirigen exclusivamente a su destinatario, pu=
ede contener informaci=F3n privilegiada o confidencial y es para uso exclus=
ivo de la persona o entidad de destino. Si no es usted. el destinatario ind=
icado, queda notificado de que la lectura, utilizaci=F3n, divulgaci=F3n y/o=
 copia sin autorizaci=F3n puede estar prohibida en virtud de la legislaci=
=F3n vigente. Si ha recibido este mensaje por error, le rogamos que nos lo =
comunique inmediatamente por esta misma v=EDa y proceda a su destrucci=F3n.

The information contained in this transmission is privileged and confidenti=
al information intended only for the use of the individual or entity named =
above. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are=
 hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this co=
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ave received this communication in error and then delete it.

Esta mensagem e seus anexos se dirigem exclusivamente ao seu destinat=E1rio=
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clusivo da pessoa ou entidade de destino. Se n=E3o =E9 vossa senhoria o des=
tinat=E1rio indicado, fica notificado de que a leitura, utiliza=E7=E3o, div=
ulga=E7=E3o e/ou c=F3pia sem autoriza=E7=E3o pode estar proibida em virtude=
 da legisla=E7=E3o vigente. Se recebeu esta mensagem por erro, rogamos-lhe =
que nos o comunique imediatamente por esta mesma via e proceda a sua destru=
i=E7=E3o

--_000_85A19DB835674B568C00A0D58A52192Atelefonicacom_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252"
Content-ID: <31D20CEB38550A4C9C57676A076D5158@eurprd06.prod.outlook.com>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DWindows-1=
252">
</head>
<body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-lin=
e-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">
Good! Just in case you don=92t remember me, I am a reasonably tall guy (~1.=
90 m, a little bit less than 6 feet) with grey hair and glasses, wearing a =
white-and-blue aloha shirt=85
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
<div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">On 18 Jul 2017, at 13:41 , Waltermire, David A. (Fed) &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:david.waltermire@nist.gov" class=3D"">david.waltermire@nis=
t.gov</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class=3D"">
<meta content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"" style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">Sounds good to me. I am alwa=
ys up for talking about PANIC.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Dave<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
-------- Original Message --------<br class=3D"">
From: Panic &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:panic-bounces@ietf.org" class=3D"">panic-=
bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of &quot;Diego R. Lopez&quot; &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:diego.r.lopez@telefonica.com" class=3D"">diego.r.lopez@telefoni=
ca.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
Date: Tue, July 18, 2017 11:18 AM &#43;0200<br class=3D"">
To: &quot;Waltermire, David A. (Fed)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:david.walt=
ermire@nist.gov" class=3D"">david.waltermire@nist.gov</a>&gt;<br class=3D""=
>
CC: <a href=3D"mailto:Panic@ietf.org" class=3D"">Panic@ietf.org</a>, Robert=
 Moskowitz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rgm-sec@htt-consult.com" class=3D"">rgm-se=
c@htt-consult.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
Subject: Re: [Panic] Any time to PANIC this week?<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">Well, we can look for one another during the social. As far=
 as I can recall, the first PANIC gathering took place with some beers arou=
nd, and we could continue the tradition=85
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">If not, the list will be always there.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">Be goode,</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">On 18 Jul 2017, at 09:58 , Waltermire, David A. (Fed) &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:david.waltermire@nist.gov" class=3D"">david.waltermire@nis=
t.gov</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"" style=3D"font-family:LucidaGrande; font-size:11px; font-sty=
le:normal; font-variant:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; =
line-height:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-t=
ransform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px">
We had a time that conflicts with the social event, so we will not be able =
to meet this time. We will need to move things forward with list conversati=
ons for now. I plan to send some emails soon to that end.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Regards,<br class=3D"">
Dave<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
-------- Original Message --------<br class=3D"">
From: Panic &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:panic-bounces@ietf.org" class=3D"">panic-=
bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Robert Moskowitz &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:rgm-sec@htt-consult.com" class=3D"">rgm-sec@htt-consult.com</a>&gt;<br cl=
ass=3D"">
Date: Tue, July 18, 2017 9:52 AM &#43;0200<br class=3D"">
To: <a href=3D"mailto:Panic@ietf.org" class=3D"">Panic@ietf.org</a><br clas=
s=3D"">
Subject: [Panic] Any time to PANIC this week?<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
</div>
<font size=3D"2" class=3D"" style=3D"font-family:LucidaGrande; font-style:n=
ormal; font-variant:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; line=
-height:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-trans=
form:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px"><span class=
=3D"" style=3D"font-size:10pt">
<div class=3D"PlainText">:)<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Bob<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">
Panic mailing list<br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"mailto:Panic@ietf.org" class=3D"">Panic@ietf.org</a><br class=3D=
"">
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/panic" class=3D"">https://=
www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/panic</a><br class=3D"">
</div>
</span></font><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-family:LucidaGrande; font-size=
:11px; font-style:normal; font-variant:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-s=
pacing:normal; line-height:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-ind=
ent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing=
:0px; float:none; display:inline!important">_______________________________=
________________</span><br class=3D"" style=3D"font-family:LucidaGrande; fo=
nt-size:11px; font-style:normal; font-variant:normal; font-weight:normal; l=
etter-spacing:normal; line-height:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; t=
ext-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-=
spacing:0px">
<span class=3D"" style=3D"font-family:LucidaGrande; font-size:11px; font-st=
yle:normal; font-variant:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal;=
 line-height:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-=
transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px; float:no=
ne; display:inline!important">Panic
 mailing list</span><br class=3D"" style=3D"font-family:LucidaGrande; font-=
size:11px; font-style:normal; font-variant:normal; font-weight:normal; lett=
er-spacing:normal; line-height:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text=
-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spa=
cing:0px">
<a href=3D"mailto:Panic@ietf.org" class=3D"" style=3D"font-family:LucidaGra=
nde; font-size:11px; font-style:normal; font-variant:normal; font-weight:no=
rmal; letter-spacing:normal; line-height:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:s=
tart; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto=
; word-spacing:0px">Panic@ietf.org</a><br class=3D"" style=3D"font-family:L=
ucidaGrande; font-size:11px; font-style:normal; font-variant:normal; font-w=
eight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; line-height:normal; orphans:auto; text=
-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; wid=
ows:auto; word-spacing:0px">
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/panic" class=3D"" style=3D=
"font-family:LucidaGrande; font-size:11px; font-style:normal; font-variant:=
normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; line-height:normal; orph=
ans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-spa=
ce:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/list=
info/panic</a></div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"" style=3D"letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align:=
 start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows=
: auto; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: break-word;">
--<br class=3D"">
&quot;Esta vez no fallaremos, Doctor Infierno&quot;<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Dr Diego R. Lopez<br class=3D"">
Telefonica I&#43;D<br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"http://people.tid.es/diego.lopez/" class=3D"">http://people.tid.=
es/diego.lopez/</a><br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
e-mail: <a href=3D"mailto:diego.r.lopez@telefonica.com" class=3D"">diego.r.=
lopez@telefonica.com</a><br class=3D"">
Tel: &nbsp; &nbsp;&#43;34 913 129 041<br class=3D"">
Mobile: &#43;34 682 051 091<br class=3D"">
----------------------------------</div>
</div>
<br class=3D"">
</div>
<br class=3D"">
<hr class=3D"">
<font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"Gray" size=3D"1" class=3D""><br class=3D"">
Este mensaje y sus adjuntos se dirigen exclusivamente a su destinatario, pu=
ede contener informaci=F3n privilegiada o confidencial y es para uso exclus=
ivo de la persona o entidad de destino. Si no es usted. el destinatario ind=
icado, queda notificado de que la
 lectura, utilizaci=F3n, divulgaci=F3n y/o copia sin autorizaci=F3n puede e=
star prohibida en virtud de la legislaci=F3n vigente. Si ha recibido este m=
ensaje por error, le rogamos que nos lo comunique inmediatamente por esta m=
isma v=EDa y proceda a su destrucci=F3n.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
The information contained in this transmission is privileged and confidenti=
al information intended only for the use of the individual or entity named =
above. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are=
 hereby notified that any dissemination,
 distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If y=
ou have received this transmission in error, do not read it. Please immedia=
tely reply to the sender that you have received this communication in error=
 and then delete it.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Esta mensagem e seus anexos se dirigem exclusivamente ao seu destinat=E1rio=
, pode conter informa=E7=E3o privilegiada ou confidencial e =E9 para uso ex=
clusivo da pessoa ou entidade de destino. Se n=E3o =E9 vossa senhoria o des=
tinat=E1rio indicado, fica notificado de que a
 leitura, utiliza=E7=E3o, divulga=E7=E3o e/ou c=F3pia sem autoriza=E7=E3o p=
ode estar proibida em virtude da legisla=E7=E3o vigente. Se recebeu esta me=
nsagem por erro, rogamos-lhe que nos o comunique imediatamente por esta mes=
ma via e proceda a sua destrui=E7=E3o<br class=3D"">
</font></div>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">
Panic mailing list<br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"mailto:Panic@ietf.org" class=3D"">Panic@ietf.org</a><br class=3D=
"">
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/panic<br class=3D"">
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class=3D"">
<div apple-content-edited=3D"true" class=3D"">
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; t=
ext-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: norm=
al; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-w=
rap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-=
space;" class=3D"">
--<br class=3D"">
&quot;Esta vez no fallaremos, Doctor Infierno&quot;<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Dr Diego R. Lopez<br class=3D"">
Telefonica I&#43;D<br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"http://people.tid.es/diego.lopez/" class=3D"">http://people.tid.=
es/diego.lopez/</a><br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
e-mail: diego.r.lopez@telefonica.com<br class=3D"">
Tel: &nbsp; &nbsp;&#43;34 913 129 041<br class=3D"">
Mobile: &#43;34 682 051 091<br class=3D"">
----------------------------------</div>
</div>
<br class=3D"">
</div>
</div>
<br>
<hr>
<font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"Gray" size=3D"1"><br>
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 lectura, utilizaci=F3n, divulgaci=F3n y/o copia sin autorizaci=F3n puede e=
star prohibida en virtud de la legislaci=F3n vigente. Si ha recibido este m=
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Esta mensagem e seus anexos se dirigem exclusivamente ao seu destinat=E1rio=
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From: "Waltermire, David A. (Fed)" <david.waltermire@nist.gov>
To: "Panic@ietf.org" <Panic@ietf.org>
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Subject: [Panic] Discussion Topic: Use of Existing Work
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Now that we have a clearer statement of scope [1], I'd like to get some dis=
cussion going around what existing work can be used to address the "abstrac=
t" solution described in the scope draft. The yang-push family of work has =
been suggested. How does this work overlay with the PANIC components in the=
 scope draft? Is this work appropriate? Other alternatives? Are there gaps =
that need to be addressed?


Please share your thoughts.


[1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-waltermire-panic-scope-02


Regards,

Dave

draft-waltermire-panic-scope-02 <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draf=
t-waltermire-panic-scope-02>
datatracker.ietf.org
Posture Assessment Through Posture Information Collection Discussion Scope =
(Internet-Draft, 2017)




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<div id=3D"divtagdefaultwrapper" style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:#000000;font=
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<p>Now that we have a clearer statement of scope [1], I'd like to get some =
discussion going around what existing work can be used to address the &quot=
;abstract&quot; solution described in the scope&nbsp;draft. The yang-push f=
amily of work has been suggested. How does this
 work overlay with the PANIC components in the scope draft? Is this work ap=
propriate?&nbsp;Other alternatives? Are there gaps that need to be addresse=
d?</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Please share your thoughts.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>[1] <a class=3D"OWAAutoLink" id=3D"LPlnk400547" href=3D"https://datatrac=
ker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-waltermire-panic-scope-02" previewremoved=3D"tr=
ue">
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-waltermire-panic-scope-02</a></=
p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Regards,</p>
<p>Dave</p>
<p></p>
<div id=3D"LPBorder_GT_15003792167700.30444368115282366" style=3D"width: 10=
0%; text-indent: 0px; overflow: auto; margin-bottom: 20px; display: inline-=
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datatracker.ietf.org</div>
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Posture Assessment Through Posture Information Collection Discussion Scope =
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From: Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net>
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Hi Dave, Jessica,
  Thanks for updating the PANIC draft...  I think it's starting to take sha=
pe!

  It seems that the next step in moving this forward might be to outline th=
e kind of information we want to retrieve from the endpoints.  I'd assume y=
ou'd want some kind of info to identify the device - manufacturer, serial n=
umber, etc, plus something that shows the software revision of the relevant=
 modules.  Could that be something like a set of SWID tags?
  It might be good to pattern the device information on IEEE 802.1AR.  Usin=
g a cryptographic ID might not be a 'must', but it's probably a desirable o=
ption, so making sure it would fit might be helpful.

  It might be good to add a note saying whether the draft should extend to =
virtualized devices, e.g., NFV instances.  I'd assume that it should, but t=
hat might make identity a bit more complicated.

  On the topic of scope, I suppose it might be good to say if "Things", as =
in IoT, are in scope or not.  I can't guess if that has an impact on the te=
chnical spec, but there certainly could be an impact on implied scaling nee=
ds, and it might help remind readers that figuring out what's running in th=
e IoT is a getting to be a big problem.

  The diagram in the front of the draft shows an interconnect between Postu=
re Server and Data Store...  seems like there could be some complicated tra=
nsactions across that link...  Do you think there's existing practice that =
could be used for this?
  The draft also mentions methods that Endpoints can use to find Posture se=
rvers.  I wonder if Zeroconf or some kind of DHCP trick might work for this=
?

  Finally, in Security Considerations, I wonder if there should be somethin=
g about how much we do or don't trust the endpoint to report its Informatio=
n truthfully. The combination of 802.1AR and signed SWID tags might help wi=
th a way to assess the reliability of the information.

  Great start, let's try to start breaking down some of the top-level topic=
s to get to the next level of requirements.
Thx,
/guy



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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Dave, Jessica,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; Thanks for updating the PANIC draft&#8230;&nb=
sp; I think it&#8217;s starting to take shape!<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; It seems that the next step in moving this fo=
rward might be to outline the kind of information we want to retrieve from =
the endpoints.&nbsp; I&#8217;d assume you&#8217;d want some kind of info to=
 identify the device &#8211; manufacturer, serial number, etc,
 plus something that shows the software revision of the relevant modules.&n=
bsp; Could that be something like a set of SWID tags?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; It might be good to pattern the device inform=
ation on IEEE 802.1AR.&nbsp; Using a cryptographic ID might not be a &#8216=
;must&#8217;, but it&#8217;s probably a desirable option, so making sure it=
 would fit might be helpful.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;It might be good to add a note saying wh=
ether the draft should extend to virtualized devices, e.g., NFV instances.&=
nbsp; I&#8217;d assume that it should, but that might make identity a bit m=
ore complicated.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; On the topic of scope, I suppose it might be =
good to say if &#8220;Things&#8221;, as in IoT, are in scope or not.&nbsp; =
I can&#8217;t guess if that has an impact on the technical spec, but there =
certainly could be an impact on implied scaling needs, and it
 might help remind readers that figuring out what&#8217;s running in the Io=
T is a getting to be a big problem.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; The diagram in the front of the draft shows a=
n interconnect between Posture Server and Data Store&#8230;&nbsp; seems lik=
e there could be some complicated transactions across that link&#8230;&nbsp=
; Do you think there&#8217;s existing practice that could be used for
 this?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; The draft also mentions methods that Endpoint=
s can use to find Posture servers.&nbsp; I wonder if Zeroconf or some kind =
of DHCP trick might work for this?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; Finally, in Security Considerations, I wonder=
 if there should be something about how much we do or don&#8217;t trust the=
 endpoint to report its Information truthfully.&nbsp;The combination of 802=
.1AR and signed SWID tags might help with a way to
 assess the reliability of the information.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; Great start, let&#8217;s try to start breakin=
g down some of the top-level topics to get to the next level of requirement=
s.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thx,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">/guy<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From: Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay <jmfmckay@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2017 14:46:04 -0400
Message-ID: <CAM+R6NUyt+Vk0sXvGJ7+3oga74FywwV32pSRagRnYgDZttPp4Q@mail.gmail.com>
To: Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net>
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Subject: Re: [Panic] notes on Panic Draft
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Thanks for the feedback, Guy. Responses in-line. I have more questions than
answers, and I'd like others on the list to weigh in. Looking forward to
hearing from everyone.


On Fri, Jul 21, 2017 at 5:18 PM, Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net> wrote=
:

>
>
> Hi Dave, Jessica,
>
>   Thanks for updating the PANIC draft=E2=80=A6  I think it=E2=80=99s star=
ting to take
> shape!
>
>
>
>   It seems that the next step in moving this forward might be to outline
> the kind of information we want to retrieve from the endpoints.  I=E2=80=
=99d assume
> you=E2=80=99d want some kind of info to identify the device =E2=80=93 man=
ufacturer, serial
> number, etc, plus something that shows the software revision of the
> relevant modules.  Could that be something like a set of SWID tags?
>

=E2=80=8BPersonally, I would be delighted if software load could be capture=
d in a
SWID tag. Failing that, I would like to be able to collect a swid-like set
of information from=E2=80=8B the network device. I took a look at NISTIR 80=
60
(which you can read here: http://nvlpubs.nist.gov/
nistpubs/ir/2016/NIST.IR.8060.pdf) and it looks like-- ignoring data about
the tag itself, like tagID, entity information about the tag creator, etc--
 required fields for a primary tag are:

   - software name and
   - software version,

which should be easy enough to collect on their own.

But, SWID tags offer additional information that could be useful to us.
Evidence and payload fields, for instance, can be used to communicate file
hashes that comprise the software. Tag signatures could allow us to have
move trust in the entity that created the tag (for example, a tag from the
software vendor is potentially more trust worthy than one created by a
third party). And SWIDs allow us to easily communicate what patches are
installed on the product, which is necessary for vulnerability and
compliance assessments.

All things considered, I'd like to use SWID tags. I would like a sense of
how widely implemented they are for network device software and operating
systems. Anyone have any insight there?


  It might be good to pattern the device information on IEEE 802.1AR.
> Using a cryptographic ID might not be a =E2=80=98must=E2=80=99, but it=E2=
=80=99s probably a
> desirable option, so making sure it would fit might be helpful.
>

802.1ar requires installation =E2=80=8B
=E2=80=8Bof an IDevID, from which many LDevIDs can be created. I'm happy to=
 geek
out on the added security of cryptographic IDs, but, can we talk though the
workflow of getting the initial IDevID installed (who would be responsible
for that? Do network equipment vendors use IDevIDs today? If not, could the
device owner install one without a lot of hassle?)=E2=80=8B.


Also, secure though 802.1ar is, it often has no relation to any observable
device identities on the network. I'm thinking about a behavior monitoring
use case here, in which I notice a device behaving in an unexpected manner,
and want to investigate it's posture while I figure out what is going on.
Is there a way to gather many identities from an network device using
netconf/yang?


>
>   It might be good to add a note saying whether the draft should extend t=
o
> virtualized devices, e.g., NFV instances.  I=E2=80=99d assume that it sho=
uld, but
> that might make identity a bit more complicated.
>

=E2=80=8BIn section 3 of the draft, we say "=E2=80=8BVirtualized network fu=
nctions are
currently considered in scope". Of course, I worded it that way because I,
too, am concerned about whether their inclusion makes our solution overly
complicated. Are there any netconf experts that can speak to this concern?

>
>
>   On the topic of scope, I suppose it might be good to say if =E2=80=9CTh=
ings=E2=80=9D, as
> in IoT, are in scope or not.  I can=E2=80=99t guess if that has an impact=
 on the
> technical spec, but there certainly could be an impact on implied scaling
> needs, and it might help remind readers that figuring out what=E2=80=99s =
running in
> the IoT is a getting to be a big problem.
>

=E2=80=8BAgreed that IoT is a problem. Do many "Things" that compose the In=
ternet
of Things implement netconf?=E2=80=8B It's such a broad space, I worry that=
 some
"Things" could handle netconf, and others (things like "smart dust", etc.)
couldn't handle the added weight.


>
>   The diagram in the front of the draft shows an interconnect between
> Posture Server and Data Store=E2=80=A6  seems like there could be some co=
mplicated
> transactions across that link=E2=80=A6  Do you think there=E2=80=99s exis=
ting practice that
> could be used for this?
>

=E2=80=8BSadly, I know of nothing we could easily point to and say "that is=
 the
protocol we will use for server-datastore communication". But, what I do
not know could fill volumes. Maybe others have ideas where we can start?
=E2=80=8B

>   The draft also mentions methods that Endpoints can use to find Posture
> servers.  I wonder if Zeroconf or some kind of DHCP trick might work for
> this?
>

=E2=80=8BZeroconf is an option. TCG has some prior art here (
https://www.trustedcomputinggroup.org/wp-content/uploads/Server_Discovery_A=
nd_Validation_v1_0r19-PUBLIC-REVIEW.pdf).
I am happy to consider all viable options.=E2=80=8B


>
>   Finally, in Security Considerations, I wonder if there should be
> something about how much we do or don=E2=80=99t trust the endpoint to rep=
ort its
> Information truthfully. The combination of 802.1AR and signed SWID tags
> might help with a way to assess the reliability of the information.
>

=E2=80=8BAgreed, I will add that to the next revision. =E2=80=8B

>
>
>   Great start, let=E2=80=99s try to start breaking down some of the top-l=
evel
> topics to get to the next level of requirements.
>
> Thx,
>
> /guy
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Panic mailing list
> Panic@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/panic
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">Th=
anks for the feedback, Guy. Responses in-line. I have more questions than a=
nswers, and I&#39;d like others on the list to weigh in. Looking forward to=
 hearing from everyone.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"color:rg=
b(0,0,0)"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quot=
e">On Fri, Jul 21, 2017 at 5:18 PM, Guy Fedorkow <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:gfedorkow@juniper.net" target=3D"_blank">gfedorkow@juniper.ne=
t</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex=
">





<div lang=3D"EN-US">
<div class=3D"gmail-m_4133634189913856215gmail-m_118184026261968732WordSect=
ion1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Dave, Jessica,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 Thanks for updating the PANIC draft=E2=80=A6=
=C2=A0 I think it=E2=80=99s starting to take shape!<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 It seems that the next step in moving this fo=
rward might be to outline the kind of information we want to retrieve from =
the endpoints.=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99d assume you=E2=80=99d want some kind of inf=
o to identify the device =E2=80=93 manufacturer, serial number, etc,
 plus something that shows the software revision of the relevant modules.=
=C2=A0 Could that be something like a set of SWID tags?</p></div></div></bl=
ockquote><div><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0=
,0)">=E2=80=8BPersonally, I would be delighted if software load could be ca=
ptured in a SWID tag. Failing that, I would like to be able to collect a sw=
id-like set of information from=E2=80=8B the network device. I took a look =
at NISTIR 8060 (which you can read here:=C2=A0<a href=3D"http://nvlpubs.nis=
t.gov/nistpubs/ir/2016/NIST.IR.8060.pdf" target=3D"_blank">http://nvlpubs.n=
ist.gov/<wbr>nistpubs/ir/2016/NIST.IR.8060.<wbr>pdf</a>) and it looks like-=
- ignoring data about the tag itself, like tagID, entity information about =
the tag creator, etc-- =C2=A0required fields for a primary tag are:</div><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_default"><ul><li><font color=3D"#000000">software name an=
d</font></li><li><font color=3D"#000000">software version,</font></li></ul>=
<font color=3D"#000000">which should be easy enough to collect on their own=
.</font></div><div class=3D"gmail_default"><font color=3D"#000000"><br></fo=
nt><div><font color=3D"#000000">But, SWID tags offer additional information=
 that could be useful to us. Evidence and payload fields, for instance, can=
 be used to communicate file hashes that comprise the software. Tag signatu=
res could allow us to have move trust in the entity that created the tag (f=
or example, a tag from the software vendor is potentially more trust worthy=
 than one created by a third party). And SWIDs allow us to easily communica=
te what patches are installed on the product, which is necessary for vulner=
ability and compliance assessments.</font></div><div><font color=3D"#000000=
"><br></font></div><div><font color=3D"#000000">All things considered, I&#3=
9;d like to use SWID tags. I would like a sense of how widely implemented t=
hey are for network device software and operating systems. Anyone have any =
insight there?</font></div><div><font color=3D"#000000"><br></font></div><d=
iv><font color=3D"#000000"><br></font></div></div><blockquote class=3D"gmai=
l_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,20=
4,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US"><div class=3D"gmail-m_41336341=
89913856215gmail-m_118184026261968732WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><=
u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 It might be good to pattern the device inform=
ation on IEEE 802.1AR.=C2=A0 Using a cryptographic ID might not be a =E2=80=
=98must=E2=80=99, but it=E2=80=99s probably a desirable option, so making s=
ure it would fit might be helpful.</p></div></div></blockquote><div><span s=
tyle=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></span></div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,=
0,0)">802.1ar requires installation =E2=80=8B<div class=3D"gmail_default" s=
tyle=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);display:inline">=E2=80=8Bof an IDevID, from which =
many LDevIDs can be created. I&#39;m happy to geek out on the added securit=
y of cryptographic IDs, but, can we talk though the workflow of getting the=
 initial IDevID installed (who would be responsible for that? Do network eq=
uipment vendors use IDevIDs today? If not, could the device owner install o=
ne without a lot of hassle?)=E2=80=8B.=C2=A0</div></span><br></div><div><sp=
an style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"color:r=
gb(0,0,0);display:inline"><br></div></span></div><div><span style=3D"color:=
rgb(0,0,0)"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);display:=
inline">Also, secure though 802.1ar is, it often has no relation to any obs=
ervable device identities on the network. I&#39;m thinking about a behavior=
 monitoring use case here, in which I notice a device behaving in an unexpe=
cted manner, and want to investigate it&#39;s posture while I figure out wh=
at is going on. Is there a way to gather many identities from an network de=
vice using netconf/yang?</div></span></div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,=
0,0)"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);display:inline=
"><br></div></span></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">=
<div lang=3D"EN-US"><div class=3D"gmail-m_4133634189913856215gmail-m_118184=
026261968732WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0=C2=A0It might be good to add a note saying wh=
ether the draft should extend to virtualized devices, e.g., NFV instances.=
=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99d assume that it should, but that might make identity a bi=
t more complicated.</p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div class=
=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">=E2=80=8BIn section 3 of the =
draft, we say &quot;=E2=80=8BVirtualized network functions are currently co=
nsidered in scope&quot;. Of course, I worded it that way because I, too, am=
 concerned about whether their inclusion makes our solution overly complica=
ted. Are there any netconf experts that can speak to this concern?</div><bl=
ockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-lef=
t:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US"><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail-m_4133634189913856215gmail-m_118184026261968732WordSection1"><p=
 class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 On the topic of scope, I suppose it might be =
good to say if =E2=80=9CThings=E2=80=9D, as in IoT, are in scope or not.=C2=
=A0 I can=E2=80=99t guess if that has an impact on the technical spec, but =
there certainly could be an impact on implied scaling needs, and it
 might help remind readers that figuring out what=E2=80=99s running in the =
IoT is a getting to be a big problem.</p></div></div></blockquote><div><br>=
</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">=E2=80=8BAgre=
ed that IoT is a problem. Do many &quot;Things&quot; that compose the Inter=
net of Things implement netconf?=E2=80=8B It&#39;s such a broad space, I wo=
rry that some &quot;Things&quot; could handle netconf, and others (things l=
ike &quot;smart dust&quot;, etc.) couldn&#39;t handle the added weight.</di=
v><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></div><blockq=
uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1p=
x solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US"><div class=
=3D"gmail-m_4133634189913856215gmail-m_118184026261968732WordSection1"><p c=
lass=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 The diagram in the front of the draft shows a=
n interconnect between Posture Server and Data Store=E2=80=A6=C2=A0 seems l=
ike there could be some complicated transactions across that link=E2=80=A6=
=C2=A0 Do you think there=E2=80=99s existing practice that could be used fo=
r
 this?</p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_defau=
lt" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">=E2=80=8BSadly, I know of nothing we could e=
asily point to and say &quot;that is the protocol we will use for server-da=
tastore communication&quot;. But, what I do not know could fill volumes. Ma=
ybe others have ideas where we can start?=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_de=
fault" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">=E2=80=8B</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail=
_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204=
,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US"><div class=3D"gmail-m_413363418=
9913856215gmail-m_118184026261968732WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u=
></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 The draft also mentions methods that Endpoint=
s can use to find Posture servers.=C2=A0 I wonder if Zeroconf or some kind =
of DHCP trick might work for this?</p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></d=
iv><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">=E2=80=8BZerocon=
f is an option. TCG has some prior art here (<a href=3D"https://www.trusted=
computinggroup.org/wp-content/uploads/Server_Discovery_And_Validation_v1_0r=
19-PUBLIC-REVIEW.pdf">https://www.trustedcomputinggroup.org/wp-content/uplo=
ads/Server_Discovery_And_Validation_v1_0r19-PUBLIC-REVIEW.pdf</a>). I am ha=
ppy to consider all viable options.=E2=80=8B</div><div class=3D"gmail_defau=
lt" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);pa=
dding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US"><div class=3D"gmail-m_41336341899138562=
15gmail-m_118184026261968732WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u><u>=
</u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 Finally, in Security Considerations, I wonder=
 if there should be something about how much we do or don=E2=80=99t trust t=
he endpoint to report its Information truthfully.=C2=A0The combination of 8=
02.1AR and signed SWID tags might help with a way to
 assess the reliability of the information.</p></div></div></blockquote><di=
v><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">=E2=80=
=8BAgreed, I will add that to the next revision. =E2=80=8B</div><blockquote=
 class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px so=
lid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US"><div class=3D"gm=
ail-m_4133634189913856215gmail-m_118184026261968732WordSection1"><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 Great start, let=E2=80=99s try to start break=
ing down some of the top-level topics to get to the next level of requireme=
nts.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thx,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">/guy<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>

<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
Panic mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Panic@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Panic@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/panic" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l<wbr>istinfo/panic</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--94eb2c18f6d83cf49805553cdc7c--


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From: Adam Montville <adam.w.montville@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2017 20:55:37 +0000
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--94eb2c0b77be2bb9ca05553eacb0
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Hi everyone.

It's really good to see additional interest in this subject area! I
encourage you to review the existing ongoing work in the SACM working group
- specifically the requirements draft (hopefully through IESG soon; see
[1]), one of the drafts under adoption consideration (Endpoint Compliance
Profile: draft-haynes-sacm-ecp) [2], and a data model proposal for carrying
SACM statements (YANG subscribed notifications via SACM Statements:
draft-birkholz-sacm-yang-content; see [3]).

After a successful hackathon in Prague, we are redoubling our efforts on
several of the topics with which PANIC appears to be concerned.  While not
all of the work PANIC may imply should necessarily be done in the SACM
group, I would suggest that those of us interested in PANIC look toward
current working group drafts as well as those being considered for adoption
as potentially viable approaches to the PANIC problem.

Our SACM-related hackathon efforts are mostly documented at [4]. (Note that
there were two SACM-related efforts, though only one was exclusive to
SACM.) We have designs for the next hackathon to integrate these two
related efforts (which may help answer the question about the link between
posture server and data store), which could look something like the diagram
at the bottom of that page (also at [5]).

Of course, there may be little-to-no overlap between what SACM has been
attempting to accomplish and what PANIC would like to ultimately achieve.

Kind regards,

Adam

[1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sacm-requirements/
[2] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-haynes-sacm-ecp/
[3] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-birkholz-sacm-yang-content/
[4]
https://github.com/sacmwg/vulnerability-scenario/tree/master/ietf_99_hackat=
hon

[5]
https://raw.githubusercontent.com/sacmwg/vulnerability-scenario/master/ietf=
_99_hackathon/graphics/hackathon_deployment_combined.png



On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 1:46 PM Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay <jmfmckay@gmail.co=
m>
wrote:

> Thanks for the feedback, Guy. Responses in-line. I have more questions
> than answers, and I'd like others on the list to weigh in. Looking forwar=
d
> to hearing from everyone.
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 21, 2017 at 5:18 PM, Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Hi Dave, Jessica,
>>
>>   Thanks for updating the PANIC draft=E2=80=A6  I think it=E2=80=99s sta=
rting to take
>> shape!
>>
>>
>>
>>   It seems that the next step in moving this forward might be to outline
>> the kind of information we want to retrieve from the endpoints.  I=E2=80=
=99d assume
>> you=E2=80=99d want some kind of info to identify the device =E2=80=93 ma=
nufacturer, serial
>> number, etc, plus something that shows the software revision of the
>> relevant modules.  Could that be something like a set of SWID tags?
>>
>
> =E2=80=8BPersonally, I would be delighted if software load could be captu=
red in a
> SWID tag. Failing that, I would like to be able to collect a swid-like se=
t
> of information from=E2=80=8B the network device. I took a look at NISTIR =
8060
> (which you can read here:
> http://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/ir/2016/NIST.IR.8060.pdf) and it looks
> like-- ignoring data about the tag itself, like tagID, entity information
> about the tag creator, etc--  required fields for a primary tag are:
>
>    - software name and
>    - software version,
>
> which should be easy enough to collect on their own.
>
> But, SWID tags offer additional information that could be useful to us.
> Evidence and payload fields, for instance, can be used to communicate fil=
e
> hashes that comprise the software. Tag signatures could allow us to have
> move trust in the entity that created the tag (for example, a tag from th=
e
> software vendor is potentially more trust worthy than one created by a
> third party). And SWIDs allow us to easily communicate what patches are
> installed on the product, which is necessary for vulnerability and
> compliance assessments.
>
> All things considered, I'd like to use SWID tags. I would like a sense of
> how widely implemented they are for network device software and operating
> systems. Anyone have any insight there?
>
>
>   It might be good to pattern the device information on IEEE 802.1AR.
>> Using a cryptographic ID might not be a =E2=80=98must=E2=80=99, but it=
=E2=80=99s probably a
>> desirable option, so making sure it would fit might be helpful.
>>
>
> 802.1ar requires installation =E2=80=8B
> =E2=80=8Bof an IDevID, from which many LDevIDs can be created. I'm happy =
to geek
> out on the added security of cryptographic IDs, but, can we talk though t=
he
> workflow of getting the initial IDevID installed (who would be responsibl=
e
> for that? Do network equipment vendors use IDevIDs today? If not, could t=
he
> device owner install one without a lot of hassle?)=E2=80=8B.
>
>
> Also, secure though 802.1ar is, it often has no relation to any observabl=
e
> device identities on the network. I'm thinking about a behavior monitorin=
g
> use case here, in which I notice a device behaving in an unexpected manne=
r,
> and want to investigate it's posture while I figure out what is going on.
> Is there a way to gather many identities from an network device using
> netconf/yang?
>
>
>>
>>   It might be good to add a note saying whether the draft should extend
>> to virtualized devices, e.g., NFV instances.  I=E2=80=99d assume that it=
 should,
>> but that might make identity a bit more complicated.
>>
>
> =E2=80=8BIn section 3 of the draft, we say "=E2=80=8BVirtualized network =
functions are
> currently considered in scope". Of course, I worded it that way because I=
,
> too, am concerned about whether their inclusion makes our solution overly
> complicated. Are there any netconf experts that can speak to this concern=
?
>
>>
>>
>>   On the topic of scope, I suppose it might be good to say if =E2=80=9CT=
hings=E2=80=9D,
>> as in IoT, are in scope or not.  I can=E2=80=99t guess if that has an im=
pact on the
>> technical spec, but there certainly could be an impact on implied scalin=
g
>> needs, and it might help remind readers that figuring out what=E2=80=99s=
 running in
>> the IoT is a getting to be a big problem.
>>
>
> =E2=80=8BAgreed that IoT is a problem. Do many "Things" that compose the =
Internet
> of Things implement netconf?=E2=80=8B It's such a broad space, I worry th=
at some
> "Things" could handle netconf, and others (things like "smart dust", etc.=
)
> couldn't handle the added weight.
>
>
>>
>>   The diagram in the front of the draft shows an interconnect between
>> Posture Server and Data Store=E2=80=A6  seems like there could be some c=
omplicated
>> transactions across that link=E2=80=A6  Do you think there=E2=80=99s exi=
sting practice that
>> could be used for this?
>>
>
> =E2=80=8BSadly, I know of nothing we could easily point to and say "that =
is the
> protocol we will use for server-datastore communication". But, what I do
> not know could fill volumes. Maybe others have ideas where we can start?
> =E2=80=8B
>
>>   The draft also mentions methods that Endpoints can use to find Posture
>> servers.  I wonder if Zeroconf or some kind of DHCP trick might work for
>> this?
>>
>
> =E2=80=8BZeroconf is an option. TCG has some prior art here (
> https://www.trustedcomputinggroup.org/wp-content/uploads/Server_Discovery=
_And_Validation_v1_0r19-PUBLIC-REVIEW.pdf).
> I am happy to consider all viable options.=E2=80=8B
>
>
>>
>>   Finally, in Security Considerations, I wonder if there should be
>> something about how much we do or don=E2=80=99t trust the endpoint to re=
port its
>> Information truthfully. The combination of 802.1AR and signed SWID tags
>> might help with a way to assess the reliability of the information.
>>
>
> =E2=80=8BAgreed, I will add that to the next revision. =E2=80=8B
>
>>
>>
>>   Great start, let=E2=80=99s try to start breaking down some of the top-=
level
>> topics to get to the next level of requirements.
>>
>> Thx,
>>
>> /guy
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Panic mailing list
>> Panic@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/panic
>>
>> _______________________________________________
> Panic mailing list
> Panic@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/panic
>

--94eb2c0b77be2bb9ca05553eacb0
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi everyone.=C2=A0<div><br></div><div>It&#39;s really good=
 to see additional interest in this subject area! I encourage you to review=
 the existing ongoing work in the SACM working group - specifically the req=
uirements draft (hopefully through IESG soon; see [1]), one of the drafts u=
nder adoption consideration (Endpoint Compliance Profile: draft-haynes-sacm=
-ecp) [2], and a data model proposal for carrying SACM statements (YANG sub=
scribed notifications via SACM Statements: draft-birkholz-sacm-yang-content=
; see [3]).<div><br></div><div>After a successful hackathon in Prague, we a=
re redoubling our efforts on several of the topics with which PANIC appears=
 to be concerned.=C2=A0 While not all of the work PANIC may imply should ne=
cessarily be done in the SACM group, I would suggest that those of us inter=
ested in PANIC look toward current working group drafts as well as those be=
ing considered for adoption as potentially viable approaches to the PANIC p=
roblem.<div><br></div><div>Our SACM-related hackathon efforts are mostly do=
cumented at [4]. (Note that there were two SACM-related efforts, though onl=
y one was exclusive to SACM.) We have designs for the next hackathon to int=
egrate these two related efforts (which may help answer the question about =
the link between posture server and data store), which could look something=
 like the diagram at the bottom of that page (also at [5]).</div><div><br><=
/div><div>Of course, there may be little-to-no overlap between what SACM ha=
s been attempting to accomplish and what PANIC would like to ultimately ach=
ieve.</div><div><br></div><div>Kind regards,</div><div><br></div><div>Adam<=
/div><div><br></div><div>[1]=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/d=
oc/draft-ietf-sacm-requirements/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ie=
tf-sacm-requirements/</a>=C2=A0</div><div>[2]=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://datat=
racker.ietf.org/doc/draft-haynes-sacm-ecp/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/do=
c/draft-haynes-sacm-ecp/</a>=C2=A0</div><div>[3] <a href=3D"https://datatra=
cker.ietf.org/doc/draft-birkholz-sacm-yang-content/">https://datatracker.ie=
tf.org/doc/draft-birkholz-sacm-yang-content/</a>=C2=A0</div><div>[4]=C2=A0<=
a href=3D"https://github.com/sacmwg/vulnerability-scenario/tree/master/ietf=
_99_hackathon">https://github.com/sacmwg/vulnerability-scenario/tree/master=
/ietf_99_hackathon</a>=C2=A0</div><div>[5]=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://raw.gith=
ubusercontent.com/sacmwg/vulnerability-scenario/master/ietf_99_hackathon/gr=
aphics/hackathon_deployment_combined.png">https://raw.githubusercontent.com=
/sacmwg/vulnerability-scenario/master/ietf_99_hackathon/graphics/hackathon_=
deployment_combined.png</a>=C2=A0</div><div><br></div></div></div></div><br=
><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 1:46 P=
M Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jmfmckay@gmail.com">jmfmck=
ay@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div di=
r=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">Thanks fo=
r the feedback, Guy. Responses in-line. I have more questions than answers,=
 and I&#39;d like others on the list to weigh in. Looking forward to hearin=
g from everyone.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0=
)"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"></di=
v></div></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gma=
il_quote">On Fri, Jul 21, 2017 at 5:18 PM, Guy Fedorkow <span dir=3D"ltr">&=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gfedorkow@juniper.net" target=3D"_blank">gfedorkow@jun=
iper.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding=
-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US">
<div class=3D"m_240334121801554688gmail-m_4133634189913856215gmail-m_118184=
026261968732WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Dave, Jessica,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 Thanks for updating the PANIC draft=E2=80=A6=
=C2=A0 I think it=E2=80=99s starting to take shape!<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 It seems that the next step in moving this fo=
rward might be to outline the kind of information we want to retrieve from =
the endpoints.=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99d assume you=E2=80=99d want some kind of inf=
o to identify the device =E2=80=93 manufacturer, serial number, etc,
 plus something that shows the software revision of the relevant modules.=
=C2=A0 Could that be something like a set of SWID tags?</p></div></div></bl=
ockquote><div><br></div></div></div></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gm=
ail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D=
"color:rgb(0,0,0)">=E2=80=8BPersonally, I would be delighted if software lo=
ad could be captured in a SWID tag. Failing that, I would like to be able t=
o collect a swid-like set of information from=E2=80=8B the network device. =
I took a look at NISTIR 8060 (which you can read here:=C2=A0<a href=3D"http=
://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/ir/2016/NIST.IR.8060.pdf" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tp://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/ir/2016/NIST.IR.8060.pdf</a>) and it looks l=
ike-- ignoring data about the tag itself, like tagID, entity information ab=
out the tag creator, etc-- =C2=A0required fields for a primary tag are:</di=
v><div class=3D"gmail_default"><ul><li><font color=3D"#000000">software nam=
e and</font></li><li><font color=3D"#000000">software version,</font></li><=
/ul><font color=3D"#000000">which should be easy enough to collect on their=
 own.</font></div><div class=3D"gmail_default"><font color=3D"#000000"><br>=
</font><div><font color=3D"#000000">But, SWID tags offer additional informa=
tion that could be useful to us. Evidence and payload fields, for instance,=
 can be used to communicate file hashes that comprise the software. Tag sig=
natures could allow us to have move trust in the entity that created the ta=
g (for example, a tag from the software vendor is potentially more trust wo=
rthy than one created by a third party). And SWIDs allow us to easily commu=
nicate what patches are installed on the product, which is necessary for vu=
lnerability and compliance assessments.</font></div><div><font color=3D"#00=
0000"><br></font></div><div><font color=3D"#000000">All things considered, =
I&#39;d like to use SWID tags. I would like a sense of how widely implement=
ed they are for network device software and operating systems. Anyone have =
any insight there?</font></div><div><font color=3D"#000000"><br></font></di=
v><div><font color=3D"#000000"><br></font></div></div></div></div></div><di=
v dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockq=
uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1p=
x solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US"><div class=
=3D"m_240334121801554688gmail-m_4133634189913856215gmail-m_1181840262619687=
32WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 It might be good to pattern the device inform=
ation on IEEE 802.1AR.=C2=A0 Using a cryptographic ID might not be a =E2=80=
=98must=E2=80=99, but it=E2=80=99s probably a desirable option, so making s=
ure it would fit might be helpful.</p></div></div></blockquote><div><span s=
tyle=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></span></div></div></div></div><div dir=3D"lt=
r"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><span style=
=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">802.1ar requires installation =E2=80=8B<div class=3D"=
gmail_default" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);display:inline">=E2=80=8Bof an IDe=
vID, from which many LDevIDs can be created. I&#39;m happy to geek out on t=
he added security of cryptographic IDs, but, can we talk though the workflo=
w of getting the initial IDevID installed (who would be responsible for tha=
t? Do network equipment vendors use IDevIDs today? If not, could the device=
 owner install one without a lot of hassle?)=E2=80=8B.=C2=A0</div></span><b=
r></div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"><div class=3D"gmail_default" =
style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);display:inline"><br></div></span></div><div><span=
 style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"color:rgb=
(0,0,0);display:inline">Also, secure though 802.1ar is, it often has no rel=
ation to any observable device identities on the network. I&#39;m thinking =
about a behavior monitoring use case here, in which I notice a device behav=
ing in an unexpected manner, and want to investigate it&#39;s posture while=
 I figure out what is going on. Is there a way to gather many identities fr=
om an network device using netconf/yang?</div></span></div></div></div></di=
v><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><d=
iv><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"c=
olor:rgb(0,0,0);display:inline"><br></div></span></div><blockquote class=3D=
"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(2=
04,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US"><div class=3D"m_240334121=
801554688gmail-m_4133634189913856215gmail-m_118184026261968732WordSection1"=
><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0=C2=A0It might be good to add a note saying wh=
ether the draft should extend to virtualized devices, e.g., NFV instances.=
=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99d assume that it should, but that might make identity a bi=
t more complicated.</p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div></div>=
</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote=
"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">=E2=80=8BIn secti=
on 3 of the draft, we say &quot;=E2=80=8BVirtualized network functions are =
currently considered in scope&quot;. Of course, I worded it that way becaus=
e I, too, am concerned about whether their inclusion makes our solution ove=
rly complicated. Are there any netconf experts that can speak to this conce=
rn?</div></div></div></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div=
 class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0p=
x 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><d=
iv lang=3D"EN-US"><div class=3D"m_240334121801554688gmail-m_413363418991385=
6215gmail-m_118184026261968732WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u><=
u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 On the topic of scope, I suppose it might be =
good to say if =E2=80=9CThings=E2=80=9D, as in IoT, are in scope or not.=C2=
=A0 I can=E2=80=99t guess if that has an impact on the technical spec, but =
there certainly could be an impact on implied scaling needs, and it
 might help remind readers that figuring out what=E2=80=99s running in the =
IoT is a getting to be a big problem.</p></div></div></blockquote><div><br>=
</div></div></div></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"=
>=E2=80=8BAgreed that IoT is a problem. Do many &quot;Things&quot; that com=
pose the Internet of Things implement netconf?=E2=80=8B It&#39;s such a bro=
ad space, I worry that some &quot;Things&quot; could handle netconf, and ot=
hers (things like &quot;smart dust&quot;, etc.) couldn&#39;t handle the add=
ed weight.</div></div></div></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extr=
a"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"color:r=
gb(0,0,0)"><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px =
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div=
 lang=3D"EN-US"><div class=3D"m_240334121801554688gmail-m_41336341899138562=
15gmail-m_118184026261968732WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u><u>=
</u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 The diagram in the front of the draft shows a=
n interconnect between Posture Server and Data Store=E2=80=A6=C2=A0 seems l=
ike there could be some complicated transactions across that link=E2=80=A6=
=C2=A0 Do you think there=E2=80=99s existing practice that could be used fo=
r
 this?</p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div></div></div><div di=
r=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=
=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">=E2=80=8BSadly, I know of not=
hing we could easily point to and say &quot;that is the protocol we will us=
e for server-datastore communication&quot;. But, what I do not know could f=
ill volumes. Maybe others have ideas where we can start?=C2=A0</div></div><=
/div></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_=
quote"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">=E2=80=8B</d=
iv><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bord=
er-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US"><d=
iv class=3D"m_240334121801554688gmail-m_4133634189913856215gmail-m_11818402=
6261968732WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 The draft also mentions methods that Endpoint=
s can use to find Posture servers.=C2=A0 I wonder if Zeroconf or some kind =
of DHCP trick might work for this?</p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></d=
iv></div></div></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">=
=E2=80=8BZeroconf is an option. TCG has some prior art here (<a href=3D"htt=
ps://www.trustedcomputinggroup.org/wp-content/uploads/Server_Discovery_And_=
Validation_v1_0r19-PUBLIC-REVIEW.pdf" target=3D"_blank">https://www.trusted=
computinggroup.org/wp-content/uploads/Server_Discovery_And_Validation_v1_0r=
19-PUBLIC-REVIEW.pdf</a>). I am happy to consider all viable options.=E2=80=
=8B</div></div></div></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div=
 class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,=
0)"><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px=
 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=
=3D"EN-US"><div class=3D"m_240334121801554688gmail-m_4133634189913856215gma=
il-m_118184026261968732WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u><u></u><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 Finally, in Security Considerations, I wonder=
 if there should be something about how much we do or don=E2=80=99t trust t=
he endpoint to report its Information truthfully.=C2=A0The combination of 8=
02.1AR and signed SWID tags might help with a way to
 assess the reliability of the information.</p></div></div></blockquote><di=
v><br></div></div></div></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><=
div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"color:rgb(0=
,0,0)">=E2=80=8BAgreed, I will add that to the next revision. =E2=80=8B</di=
v></div></div></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px =
0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lan=
g=3D"EN-US"><div class=3D"m_240334121801554688gmail-m_4133634189913856215gm=
ail-m_118184026261968732WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u><u></u>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 Great start, let=E2=80=99s try to start break=
ing down some of the top-level topics to get to the next level of requireme=
nts.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thx,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">/guy<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>

<br>_______________________________________________<br>
Panic mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Panic@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Panic@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/panic" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/panic</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div></div></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
Panic mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Panic@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Panic@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/panic" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/panic</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

--94eb2c0b77be2bb9ca05553eacb0--


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From: Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net>
To: Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay <jmfmckay@gmail.com>
CC: "Panic@ietf.org" <Panic@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Panic] notes on Panic Draft
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Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2017 15:01:08 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/panic/wRPgdWjMYM8BFqAmFUmpYzjC8EU>
Subject: Re: [Panic] notes on Panic Draft
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From: Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay <jmfmckay@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2017 16:49:21 +0000
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To: Adam Montville <adam.w.montville@gmail.com>, Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net>
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Subject: Re: [Panic] notes on Panic Draft
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Adam et al.,
Yes, there are a lot of places where sacm, panic and mile overlap. If you
haven't read it, check out this (shamelessly self-promoted) article:
https://www.ietfjournal.org/working-group-update-security-automation-and-co=
ntinuous-monitoring/
It describes my point of view of how these efforts intersect. I'd love
feedback on it.

Thanks,
Jess

On Wed, Jul 26, 2017, 4:55 PM Adam Montville <adam.w.montville@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hi everyone.
>
> It's really good to see additional interest in this subject area! I
> encourage you to review the existing ongoing work in the SACM working gro=
up
> - specifically the requirements draft (hopefully through IESG soon; see
> [1]), one of the drafts under adoption consideration (Endpoint Compliance
> Profile: draft-haynes-sacm-ecp) [2], and a data model proposal for carryi=
ng
> SACM statements (YANG subscribed notifications via SACM Statements:
> draft-birkholz-sacm-yang-content; see [3]).
>
> After a successful hackathon in Prague, we are redoubling our efforts on
> several of the topics with which PANIC appears to be concerned.  While no=
t
> all of the work PANIC may imply should necessarily be done in the SACM
> group, I would suggest that those of us interested in PANIC look toward
> current working group drafts as well as those being considered for adopti=
on
> as potentially viable approaches to the PANIC problem.
>
> Our SACM-related hackathon efforts are mostly documented at [4]. (Note
> that there were two SACM-related efforts, though only one was exclusive t=
o
> SACM.) We have designs for the next hackathon to integrate these two
> related efforts (which may help answer the question about the link betwee=
n
> posture server and data store), which could look something like the diagr=
am
> at the bottom of that page (also at [5]).
>
> Of course, there may be little-to-no overlap between what SACM has been
> attempting to accomplish and what PANIC would like to ultimately achieve.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Adam
>
> [1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sacm-requirements/
> [2] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-haynes-sacm-ecp/
> [3] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-birkholz-sacm-yang-content/
> [4]
> https://github.com/sacmwg/vulnerability-scenario/tree/master/ietf_99_hack=
athon
>
> [5]
> https://raw.githubusercontent.com/sacmwg/vulnerability-scenario/master/ie=
tf_99_hackathon/graphics/hackathon_deployment_combined.png
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 1:46 PM Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay <
> jmfmckay@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Thanks for the feedback, Guy. Responses in-line. I have more questions
>> than answers, and I'd like others on the list to weigh in. Looking forwa=
rd
>> to hearing from everyone.
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 21, 2017 at 5:18 PM, Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Dave, Jessica,
>>>
>>>   Thanks for updating the PANIC draft=E2=80=A6  I think it=E2=80=99s st=
arting to take
>>> shape!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   It seems that the next step in moving this forward might be to outlin=
e
>>> the kind of information we want to retrieve from the endpoints.  I=E2=
=80=99d assume
>>> you=E2=80=99d want some kind of info to identify the device =E2=80=93 m=
anufacturer, serial
>>> number, etc, plus something that shows the software revision of the
>>> relevant modules.  Could that be something like a set of SWID tags?
>>>
>>
>> =E2=80=8BPersonally, I would be delighted if software load could be capt=
ured in a
>> SWID tag. Failing that, I would like to be able to collect a swid-like s=
et
>> of information from=E2=80=8B the network device. I took a look at NISTIR=
 8060
>> (which you can read here:
>> http://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/ir/2016/NIST.IR.8060.pdf) and it looks
>> like-- ignoring data about the tag itself, like tagID, entity informatio=
n
>> about the tag creator, etc--  required fields for a primary tag are:
>>
>>    - software name and
>>    - software version,
>>
>> which should be easy enough to collect on their own.
>>
>> But, SWID tags offer additional information that could be useful to us.
>> Evidence and payload fields, for instance, can be used to communicate fi=
le
>> hashes that comprise the software. Tag signatures could allow us to have
>> move trust in the entity that created the tag (for example, a tag from t=
he
>> software vendor is potentially more trust worthy than one created by a
>> third party). And SWIDs allow us to easily communicate what patches are
>> installed on the product, which is necessary for vulnerability and
>> compliance assessments.
>>
>> All things considered, I'd like to use SWID tags. I would like a sense o=
f
>> how widely implemented they are for network device software and operatin=
g
>> systems. Anyone have any insight there?
>>
>>
>>   It might be good to pattern the device information on IEEE 802.1AR.
>>> Using a cryptographic ID might not be a =E2=80=98must=E2=80=99, but it=
=E2=80=99s probably a
>>> desirable option, so making sure it would fit might be helpful.
>>>
>>
>> 802.1ar requires installation =E2=80=8B
>> =E2=80=8Bof an IDevID, from which many LDevIDs can be created. I'm happy=
 to geek
>> out on the added security of cryptographic IDs, but, can we talk though =
the
>> workflow of getting the initial IDevID installed (who would be responsib=
le
>> for that? Do network equipment vendors use IDevIDs today? If not, could =
the
>> device owner install one without a lot of hassle?)=E2=80=8B.
>>
>>
>> Also, secure though 802.1ar is, it often has no relation to any
>> observable device identities on the network. I'm thinking about a behavi=
or
>> monitoring use case here, in which I notice a device behaving in an
>> unexpected manner, and want to investigate it's posture while I figure o=
ut
>> what is going on. Is there a way to gather many identities from an netwo=
rk
>> device using netconf/yang?
>>
>>
>>>
>>>   It might be good to add a note saying whether the draft should extend
>>> to virtualized devices, e.g., NFV instances.  I=E2=80=99d assume that i=
t should,
>>> but that might make identity a bit more complicated.
>>>
>>
>> =E2=80=8BIn section 3 of the draft, we say "=E2=80=8BVirtualized network=
 functions are
>> currently considered in scope". Of course, I worded it that way because =
I,
>> too, am concerned about whether their inclusion makes our solution overl=
y
>> complicated. Are there any netconf experts that can speak to this concer=
n?
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   On the topic of scope, I suppose it might be good to say if =E2=80=9C=
Things=E2=80=9D,
>>> as in IoT, are in scope or not.  I can=E2=80=99t guess if that has an i=
mpact on the
>>> technical spec, but there certainly could be an impact on implied scali=
ng
>>> needs, and it might help remind readers that figuring out what=E2=80=99=
s running in
>>> the IoT is a getting to be a big problem.
>>>
>>
>> =E2=80=8BAgreed that IoT is a problem. Do many "Things" that compose the=
 Internet
>> of Things implement netconf?=E2=80=8B It's such a broad space, I worry t=
hat some
>> "Things" could handle netconf, and others (things like "smart dust", etc=
.)
>> couldn't handle the added weight.
>>
>>
>>>
>>>   The diagram in the front of the draft shows an interconnect between
>>> Posture Server and Data Store=E2=80=A6  seems like there could be some =
complicated
>>> transactions across that link=E2=80=A6  Do you think there=E2=80=99s ex=
isting practice that
>>> could be used for this?
>>>
>>
>> =E2=80=8BSadly, I know of nothing we could easily point to and say "that=
 is the
>> protocol we will use for server-datastore communication". But, what I do
>> not know could fill volumes. Maybe others have ideas where we can start?
>> =E2=80=8B
>>
>>>   The draft also mentions methods that Endpoints can use to find Postur=
e
>>> servers.  I wonder if Zeroconf or some kind of DHCP trick might work fo=
r
>>> this?
>>>
>>
>> =E2=80=8BZeroconf is an option. TCG has some prior art here (
>> https://www.trustedcomputinggroup.org/wp-content/uploads/Server_Discover=
y_And_Validation_v1_0r19-PUBLIC-REVIEW.pdf).
>> I am happy to consider all viable options.=E2=80=8B
>>
>>
>>>
>>>   Finally, in Security Considerations, I wonder if there should be
>>> something about how much we do or don=E2=80=99t trust the endpoint to r=
eport its
>>> Information truthfully. The combination of 802.1AR and signed SWID tags
>>> might help with a way to assess the reliability of the information.
>>>
>>
>> =E2=80=8BAgreed, I will add that to the next revision. =E2=80=8B
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   Great start, let=E2=80=99s try to start breaking down some of the top=
-level
>>> topics to get to the next level of requirements.
>>>
>>> Thx,
>>>
>>> /guy
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Panic mailing list
>>> Panic@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/panic
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>> Panic mailing list
>> Panic@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/panic
>>
>

--001a114dac06440cb105554f59ef
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Adam et al.,=C2=A0<div>Yes, there are a lot of places where sacm, panic and=
 mile overlap. If you haven&#39;t read it, check out this (shamelessly self=
-promoted) article:=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://www.ietfjournal.org/working-gro=
up-update-security-automation-and-continuous-monitoring/">https://www.ietfj=
ournal.org/working-group-update-security-automation-and-continuous-monitori=
ng/</a></div><div>It describes my point of view of how these efforts inters=
ect. I&#39;d love feedback on it.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,=C2=
=A0</div><div>Jess=C2=A0<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr"=
>On Wed, Jul 26, 2017, 4:55 PM Adam Montville &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adam.w.=
montville@gmail.com">adam.w.montville@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><bl=
ockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #=
ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi everyone.=C2=A0<div><br></d=
iv><div>It&#39;s really good to see additional interest in this subject are=
a! I encourage you to review the existing ongoing work in the SACM working =
group - specifically the requirements draft (hopefully through IESG soon; s=
ee [1]), one of the drafts under adoption consideration (Endpoint Complianc=
e Profile: draft-haynes-sacm-ecp) [2], and a data model proposal for carryi=
ng SACM statements (YANG subscribed notifications via SACM Statements: draf=
t-birkholz-sacm-yang-content; see [3]).<div><br></div><div>After a successf=
ul hackathon in Prague, we are redoubling our efforts on several of the top=
ics with which PANIC appears to be concerned.=C2=A0 While not all of the wo=
rk PANIC may imply should necessarily be done in the SACM group, I would su=
ggest that those of us interested in PANIC look toward current working grou=
p drafts as well as those being considered for adoption as potentially viab=
le approaches to the PANIC problem.<div><br></div><div>Our SACM-related hac=
kathon efforts are mostly documented at [4]. (Note that there were two SACM=
-related efforts, though only one was exclusive to SACM.) We have designs f=
or the next hackathon to integrate these two related efforts (which may hel=
p answer the question about the link between posture server and data store)=
, which could look something like the diagram at the bottom of that page (a=
lso at [5]).</div><div><br></div><div>Of course, there may be little-to-no =
overlap between what SACM has been attempting to accomplish and what PANIC =
would like to ultimately achieve.</div><div><br></div><div>Kind regards,</d=
iv><div><br></div><div>Adam</div><div><br></div><div>[1]=C2=A0<a href=3D"ht=
tps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sacm-requirements/" target=3D"_bl=
ank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sacm-requirements/</a>=C2=
=A0</div><div>[2]=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ha=
ynes-sacm-ecp/" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ha=
ynes-sacm-ecp/</a>=C2=A0</div><div>[3] <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.=
org/doc/draft-birkholz-sacm-yang-content/" target=3D"_blank">https://datatr=
acker.ietf.org/doc/draft-birkholz-sacm-yang-content/</a>=C2=A0</div><div>[4=
]=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://github.com/sacmwg/vulnerability-scenario/tree/mas=
ter/ietf_99_hackathon" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/sacmwg/vulnerab=
ility-scenario/tree/master/ietf_99_hackathon</a>=C2=A0</div><div>[5]=C2=A0<=
a href=3D"https://raw.githubusercontent.com/sacmwg/vulnerability-scenario/m=
aster/ietf_99_hackathon/graphics/hackathon_deployment_combined.png" target=
=3D"_blank">https://raw.githubusercontent.com/sacmwg/vulnerability-scenario=
/master/ietf_99_hackathon/graphics/hackathon_deployment_combined.png</a>=C2=
=A0</div><div><br></div></div></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><d=
iv dir=3D"ltr">On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 1:46 PM Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:jmfmckay@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">jmfmckay@gmail.com=
</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">Thanks for the feedba=
ck, Guy. Responses in-line. I have more questions than answers, and I&#39;d=
 like others on the list to weigh in. Looking forward to hearing from every=
one.</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></div=
><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"></div></div></di=
v><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On=
 Fri, Jul 21, 2017 at 5:18 PM, Guy Fedorkow <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:gfedorkow@juniper.net" target=3D"_blank">gfedorkow@juniper.net</=
a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0=
px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US">
<div class=3D"m_-1584446291402512173m_240334121801554688gmail-m_41336341899=
13856215gmail-m_118184026261968732WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Dave, Jessica,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 Thanks for updating the PANIC draft=E2=80=A6=
=C2=A0 I think it=E2=80=99s starting to take shape!<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 It seems that the next step in moving this fo=
rward might be to outline the kind of information we want to retrieve from =
the endpoints.=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99d assume you=E2=80=99d want some kind of inf=
o to identify the device =E2=80=93 manufacturer, serial number, etc,
 plus something that shows the software revision of the relevant modules.=
=C2=A0 Could that be something like a set of SWID tags?</p></div></div></bl=
ockquote><div><br></div></div></div></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gm=
ail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D=
"color:rgb(0,0,0)">=E2=80=8BPersonally, I would be delighted if software lo=
ad could be captured in a SWID tag. Failing that, I would like to be able t=
o collect a swid-like set of information from=E2=80=8B the network device. =
I took a look at NISTIR 8060 (which you can read here:=C2=A0<a href=3D"http=
://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/ir/2016/NIST.IR.8060.pdf" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tp://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/ir/2016/NIST.IR.8060.pdf</a>) and it looks l=
ike-- ignoring data about the tag itself, like tagID, entity information ab=
out the tag creator, etc-- =C2=A0required fields for a primary tag are:</di=
v><div class=3D"gmail_default"><ul><li><font color=3D"#000000">software nam=
e and</font></li><li><font color=3D"#000000">software version,</font></li><=
/ul><font color=3D"#000000">which should be easy enough to collect on their=
 own.</font></div><div class=3D"gmail_default"><font color=3D"#000000"><br>=
</font><div><font color=3D"#000000">But, SWID tags offer additional informa=
tion that could be useful to us. Evidence and payload fields, for instance,=
 can be used to communicate file hashes that comprise the software. Tag sig=
natures could allow us to have move trust in the entity that created the ta=
g (for example, a tag from the software vendor is potentially more trust wo=
rthy than one created by a third party). And SWIDs allow us to easily commu=
nicate what patches are installed on the product, which is necessary for vu=
lnerability and compliance assessments.</font></div><div><font color=3D"#00=
0000"><br></font></div><div><font color=3D"#000000">All things considered, =
I&#39;d like to use SWID tags. I would like a sense of how widely implement=
ed they are for network device software and operating systems. Anyone have =
any insight there?</font></div><div><font color=3D"#000000"><br></font></di=
v><div><font color=3D"#000000"><br></font></div></div></div></div></div><di=
v dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockq=
uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1p=
x solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US"><div class=
=3D"m_-1584446291402512173m_240334121801554688gmail-m_4133634189913856215gm=
ail-m_118184026261968732WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u><u></u>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 It might be good to pattern the device inform=
ation on IEEE 802.1AR.=C2=A0 Using a cryptographic ID might not be a =E2=80=
=98must=E2=80=99, but it=E2=80=99s probably a desirable option, so making s=
ure it would fit might be helpful.</p></div></div></blockquote><div><span s=
tyle=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></span></div></div></div></div><div dir=3D"lt=
r"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><span style=
=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">802.1ar requires installation =E2=80=8B<div class=3D"=
gmail_default" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);display:inline">=E2=80=8Bof an IDe=
vID, from which many LDevIDs can be created. I&#39;m happy to geek out on t=
he added security of cryptographic IDs, but, can we talk though the workflo=
w of getting the initial IDevID installed (who would be responsible for tha=
t? Do network equipment vendors use IDevIDs today? If not, could the device=
 owner install one without a lot of hassle?)=E2=80=8B.=C2=A0</div></span><b=
r></div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"><div class=3D"gmail_default" =
style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);display:inline"><br></div></span></div><div><span=
 style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"color:rgb=
(0,0,0);display:inline">Also, secure though 802.1ar is, it often has no rel=
ation to any observable device identities on the network. I&#39;m thinking =
about a behavior monitoring use case here, in which I notice a device behav=
ing in an unexpected manner, and want to investigate it&#39;s posture while=
 I figure out what is going on. Is there a way to gather many identities fr=
om an network device using netconf/yang?</div></span></div></div></div></di=
v><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><d=
iv><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"c=
olor:rgb(0,0,0);display:inline"><br></div></span></div><blockquote class=3D=
"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(2=
04,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US"><div class=3D"m_-15844462=
91402512173m_240334121801554688gmail-m_4133634189913856215gmail-m_118184026=
261968732WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0=C2=A0It might be good to add a note saying wh=
ether the draft should extend to virtualized devices, e.g., NFV instances.=
=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99d assume that it should, but that might make identity a bi=
t more complicated.</p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div></div>=
</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote=
"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">=E2=80=8BIn secti=
on 3 of the draft, we say &quot;=E2=80=8BVirtualized network functions are =
currently considered in scope&quot;. Of course, I worded it that way becaus=
e I, too, am concerned about whether their inclusion makes our solution ove=
rly complicated. Are there any netconf experts that can speak to this conce=
rn?</div></div></div></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div=
 class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0p=
x 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><d=
iv lang=3D"EN-US"><div class=3D"m_-1584446291402512173m_240334121801554688g=
mail-m_4133634189913856215gmail-m_118184026261968732WordSection1"><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 On the topic of scope, I suppose it might be =
good to say if =E2=80=9CThings=E2=80=9D, as in IoT, are in scope or not.=C2=
=A0 I can=E2=80=99t guess if that has an impact on the technical spec, but =
there certainly could be an impact on implied scaling needs, and it
 might help remind readers that figuring out what=E2=80=99s running in the =
IoT is a getting to be a big problem.</p></div></div></blockquote><div><br>=
</div></div></div></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"=
>=E2=80=8BAgreed that IoT is a problem. Do many &quot;Things&quot; that com=
pose the Internet of Things implement netconf?=E2=80=8B It&#39;s such a bro=
ad space, I worry that some &quot;Things&quot; could handle netconf, and ot=
hers (things like &quot;smart dust&quot;, etc.) couldn&#39;t handle the add=
ed weight.</div></div></div></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extr=
a"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"color:r=
gb(0,0,0)"><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px =
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div=
 lang=3D"EN-US"><div class=3D"m_-1584446291402512173m_240334121801554688gma=
il-m_4133634189913856215gmail-m_118184026261968732WordSection1"><p class=3D=
"MsoNormal"><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 The diagram in the front of the draft shows a=
n interconnect between Posture Server and Data Store=E2=80=A6=C2=A0 seems l=
ike there could be some complicated transactions across that link=E2=80=A6=
=C2=A0 Do you think there=E2=80=99s existing practice that could be used fo=
r
 this?</p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div></div></div><div di=
r=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=
=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">=E2=80=8BSadly, I know of not=
hing we could easily point to and say &quot;that is the protocol we will us=
e for server-datastore communication&quot;. But, what I do not know could f=
ill volumes. Maybe others have ideas where we can start?=C2=A0</div></div><=
/div></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_=
quote"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">=E2=80=8B</d=
iv><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bord=
er-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US"><d=
iv class=3D"m_-1584446291402512173m_240334121801554688gmail-m_4133634189913=
856215gmail-m_118184026261968732WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u=
><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 The draft also mentions methods that Endpoint=
s can use to find Posture servers.=C2=A0 I wonder if Zeroconf or some kind =
of DHCP trick might work for this?</p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></d=
iv></div></div></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">=
=E2=80=8BZeroconf is an option. TCG has some prior art here (<a href=3D"htt=
ps://www.trustedcomputinggroup.org/wp-content/uploads/Server_Discovery_And_=
Validation_v1_0r19-PUBLIC-REVIEW.pdf" target=3D"_blank">https://www.trusted=
computinggroup.org/wp-content/uploads/Server_Discovery_And_Validation_v1_0r=
19-PUBLIC-REVIEW.pdf</a>). I am happy to consider all viable options.=E2=80=
=8B</div></div></div></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div=
 class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,=
0)"><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px=
 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=
=3D"EN-US"><div class=3D"m_-1584446291402512173m_240334121801554688gmail-m_=
4133634189913856215gmail-m_118184026261968732WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoN=
ormal"><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 Finally, in Security Considerations, I wonder=
 if there should be something about how much we do or don=E2=80=99t trust t=
he endpoint to report its Information truthfully.=C2=A0The combination of 8=
02.1AR and signed SWID tags might help with a way to
 assess the reliability of the information.</p></div></div></blockquote><di=
v><br></div></div></div></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><=
div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"color:rgb(0=
,0,0)">=E2=80=8BAgreed, I will add that to the next revision. =E2=80=8B</di=
v></div></div></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px =
0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lan=
g=3D"EN-US"><div class=3D"m_-1584446291402512173m_240334121801554688gmail-m=
_4133634189913856215gmail-m_118184026261968732WordSection1"><p class=3D"Mso=
Normal"><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 Great start, let=E2=80=99s try to start break=
ing down some of the top-level topics to get to the next level of requireme=
nts.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thx,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">/guy<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>

<br>_______________________________________________<br>
Panic mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Panic@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Panic@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/panic" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/panic</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div></div></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
Panic mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Panic@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Panic@ietf.org</a><br>
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target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/panic</a><br>
</blockquote></div>
</blockquote></div></div>

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Thanks for sharing that link, Jess. I had seen the article when the Journal
was published. When considering that there are further downstream uses of
collected information, I'm wondering what the value is of, in effect,
having two points of evaluation: Compliance Server and Evaluators.

Before getting into this, I do want to point out that I believe we are on
the same wavelength with respect to the outcome: We want a cooperative
"ecosystem" of capabilities (very likely implemented by multiple vendors)
to increase the efficacy of enterprise security programs. I say that at the
risk of overstating your views, but I think that's about right.

Consequent to our hackathon efforts, I'd call your attention to [1]
generally (our current write-up on approach and outcomes) and [2] (the last
diagram on that first page at [1]). Because the data collected is
ultimately destined to support a widely-scoped security program, it may
make more sense to go for the wider data sharing problem more immediately
in the solution's architecture. In a sense, the Compliance Server described
in your article is one that serves, in reality, multiple purposes: One
component (StrongSwan in the hackathon effort) is part of a SACM Collector,
and the other component is an evaluator and datastore. It may make sense to
decouple those multiple purposes, so that the Compliance Server portion of
the ECP solution becomes a consumer of collected information, just like any
other evaluator.

There may be no reason (other than limited bandwidth in this wider
community) one approach should be excluded in favor of another.

All that said, I, too, am very interested in gaining additional feedback
from others on this list, the SACM list, and/or the MILE list.

Kind regards,

Adam

[1]
https://github.com/sacmwg/vulnerability-scenario/tree/master/ietf_99_hackat=
hon

[2]
https://raw.githubusercontent.com/sacmwg/vulnerability-scenario/master/ietf=
_99_hackathon/graphics/hackathon_deployment_combined.png


On Thu, Jul 27, 2017 at 11:49 AM Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay <
jmfmckay@gmail.com> wrote:

> Adam et al.,
> Yes, there are a lot of places where sacm, panic and mile overlap. If you
> haven't read it, check out this (shamelessly self-promoted) article:
> https://www.ietfjournal.org/working-group-update-security-automation-and-=
continuous-monitoring/
> It describes my point of view of how these efforts intersect. I'd love
> feedback on it.
>
> Thanks,
> Jess
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 26, 2017, 4:55 PM Adam Montville <adam.w.montville@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi everyone.
>>
>> It's really good to see additional interest in this subject area! I
>> encourage you to review the existing ongoing work in the SACM working gr=
oup
>> - specifically the requirements draft (hopefully through IESG soon; see
>> [1]), one of the drafts under adoption consideration (Endpoint Complianc=
e
>> Profile: draft-haynes-sacm-ecp) [2], and a data model proposal for carry=
ing
>> SACM statements (YANG subscribed notifications via SACM Statements:
>> draft-birkholz-sacm-yang-content; see [3]).
>>
>> After a successful hackathon in Prague, we are redoubling our efforts on
>> several of the topics with which PANIC appears to be concerned.  While n=
ot
>> all of the work PANIC may imply should necessarily be done in the SACM
>> group, I would suggest that those of us interested in PANIC look toward
>> current working group drafts as well as those being considered for adopt=
ion
>> as potentially viable approaches to the PANIC problem.
>>
>> Our SACM-related hackathon efforts are mostly documented at [4]. (Note
>> that there were two SACM-related efforts, though only one was exclusive =
to
>> SACM.) We have designs for the next hackathon to integrate these two
>> related efforts (which may help answer the question about the link betwe=
en
>> posture server and data store), which could look something like the diag=
ram
>> at the bottom of that page (also at [5]).
>>
>> Of course, there may be little-to-no overlap between what SACM has been
>> attempting to accomplish and what PANIC would like to ultimately achieve=
.
>>
>> Kind regards,
>>
>> Adam
>>
>> [1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sacm-requirements/
>> [2] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-haynes-sacm-ecp/
>> [3] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-birkholz-sacm-yang-content/
>> [4]
>> https://github.com/sacmwg/vulnerability-scenario/tree/master/ietf_99_hac=
kathon
>>
>> [5]
>> https://raw.githubusercontent.com/sacmwg/vulnerability-scenario/master/i=
etf_99_hackathon/graphics/hackathon_deployment_combined.png
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 1:46 PM Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay <
>> jmfmckay@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks for the feedback, Guy. Responses in-line. I have more questions
>>> than answers, and I'd like others on the list to weigh in. Looking forw=
ard
>>> to hearing from everyone.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jul 21, 2017 at 5:18 PM, Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi Dave, Jessica,
>>>>
>>>>   Thanks for updating the PANIC draft=E2=80=A6  I think it=E2=80=99s s=
tarting to take
>>>> shape!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   It seems that the next step in moving this forward might be to
>>>> outline the kind of information we want to retrieve from the endpoints=
.
>>>> I=E2=80=99d assume you=E2=80=99d want some kind of info to identify th=
e device =E2=80=93
>>>> manufacturer, serial number, etc, plus something that shows the softwa=
re
>>>> revision of the relevant modules.  Could that be something like a set =
of
>>>> SWID tags?
>>>>
>>>
>>> =E2=80=8BPersonally, I would be delighted if software load could be cap=
tured in
>>> a SWID tag. Failing that, I would like to be able to collect a swid-lik=
e
>>> set of information from=E2=80=8B the network device. I took a look at N=
ISTIR 8060
>>> (which you can read here:
>>> http://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/ir/2016/NIST.IR.8060.pdf) and it looks
>>> like-- ignoring data about the tag itself, like tagID, entity informati=
on
>>> about the tag creator, etc--  required fields for a primary tag are:
>>>
>>>    - software name and
>>>    - software version,
>>>
>>> which should be easy enough to collect on their own.
>>>
>>> But, SWID tags offer additional information that could be useful to us.
>>> Evidence and payload fields, for instance, can be used to communicate f=
ile
>>> hashes that comprise the software. Tag signatures could allow us to hav=
e
>>> move trust in the entity that created the tag (for example, a tag from =
the
>>> software vendor is potentially more trust worthy than one created by a
>>> third party). And SWIDs allow us to easily communicate what patches are
>>> installed on the product, which is necessary for vulnerability and
>>> compliance assessments.
>>>
>>> All things considered, I'd like to use SWID tags. I would like a sense
>>> of how widely implemented they are for network device software and
>>> operating systems. Anyone have any insight there?
>>>
>>>
>>>   It might be good to pattern the device information on IEEE 802.1AR.
>>>> Using a cryptographic ID might not be a =E2=80=98must=E2=80=99, but it=
=E2=80=99s probably a
>>>> desirable option, so making sure it would fit might be helpful.
>>>>
>>>
>>> 802.1ar requires installation =E2=80=8B
>>> =E2=80=8Bof an IDevID, from which many LDevIDs can be created. I'm happ=
y to geek
>>> out on the added security of cryptographic IDs, but, can we talk though=
 the
>>> workflow of getting the initial IDevID installed (who would be responsi=
ble
>>> for that? Do network equipment vendors use IDevIDs today? If not, could=
 the
>>> device owner install one without a lot of hassle?)=E2=80=8B.
>>>
>>>
>>> Also, secure though 802.1ar is, it often has no relation to any
>>> observable device identities on the network. I'm thinking about a behav=
ior
>>> monitoring use case here, in which I notice a device behaving in an
>>> unexpected manner, and want to investigate it's posture while I figure =
out
>>> what is going on. Is there a way to gather many identities from an netw=
ork
>>> device using netconf/yang?
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>   It might be good to add a note saying whether the draft should exten=
d
>>>> to virtualized devices, e.g., NFV instances.  I=E2=80=99d assume that =
it should,
>>>> but that might make identity a bit more complicated.
>>>>
>>>
>>> =E2=80=8BIn section 3 of the draft, we say "=E2=80=8BVirtualized networ=
k functions are
>>> currently considered in scope". Of course, I worded it that way because=
 I,
>>> too, am concerned about whether their inclusion makes our solution over=
ly
>>> complicated. Are there any netconf experts that can speak to this conce=
rn?
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   On the topic of scope, I suppose it might be good to say if =E2=80=
=9CThings=E2=80=9D,
>>>> as in IoT, are in scope or not.  I can=E2=80=99t guess if that has an =
impact on the
>>>> technical spec, but there certainly could be an impact on implied scal=
ing
>>>> needs, and it might help remind readers that figuring out what=E2=80=
=99s running in
>>>> the IoT is a getting to be a big problem.
>>>>
>>>
>>> =E2=80=8BAgreed that IoT is a problem. Do many "Things" that compose th=
e
>>> Internet of Things implement netconf?=E2=80=8B It's such a broad space,=
 I worry
>>> that some "Things" could handle netconf, and others (things like "smart
>>> dust", etc.) couldn't handle the added weight.
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>   The diagram in the front of the draft shows an interconnect between
>>>> Posture Server and Data Store=E2=80=A6  seems like there could be some=
 complicated
>>>> transactions across that link=E2=80=A6  Do you think there=E2=80=99s e=
xisting practice that
>>>> could be used for this?
>>>>
>>>
>>> =E2=80=8BSadly, I know of nothing we could easily point to and say "tha=
t is the
>>> protocol we will use for server-datastore communication". But, what I d=
o
>>> not know could fill volumes. Maybe others have ideas where we can start=
?
>>> =E2=80=8B
>>>
>>>>   The draft also mentions methods that Endpoints can use to find
>>>> Posture servers.  I wonder if Zeroconf or some kind of DHCP trick migh=
t
>>>> work for this?
>>>>
>>>
>>> =E2=80=8BZeroconf is an option. TCG has some prior art here (
>>> https://www.trustedcomputinggroup.org/wp-content/uploads/Server_Discove=
ry_And_Validation_v1_0r19-PUBLIC-REVIEW.pdf).
>>> I am happy to consider all viable options.=E2=80=8B
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>   Finally, in Security Considerations, I wonder if there should be
>>>> something about how much we do or don=E2=80=99t trust the endpoint to =
report its
>>>> Information truthfully. The combination of 802.1AR and signed SWID tag=
s
>>>> might help with a way to assess the reliability of the information.
>>>>
>>>
>>> =E2=80=8BAgreed, I will add that to the next revision. =E2=80=8B
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   Great start, let=E2=80=99s try to start breaking down some of the to=
p-level
>>>> topics to get to the next level of requirements.
>>>>
>>>> Thx,
>>>>
>>>> /guy
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Panic mailing list
>>>> Panic@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/panic
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Panic mailing list
>>> Panic@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/panic
>>>
>>

--001a1140f3c09cdfa405555f0e02
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Thanks for sharing that link, Jess. I had seen the article=
 when the Journal was published. When considering that there are further do=
wnstream uses of collected information, I&#39;m wondering what the value is=
 of, in effect, having two points of evaluation: Compliance Server and Eval=
uators.=C2=A0<div><br></div><div>Before getting into this, I do want to poi=
nt out that I believe we are on the same wavelength with respect to the out=
come: We want a cooperative &quot;ecosystem&quot; of capabilities (very lik=
ely implemented by multiple vendors) to increase the efficacy of enterprise=
 security programs. I say that at the risk of overstating your views, but I=
 think that&#39;s about right.<br><div><br></div><div>Consequent to our hac=
kathon efforts, I&#39;d call your attention to [1] generally (our current w=
rite-up on approach and outcomes) and [2] (the last diagram on that first p=
age at [1]). Because the data collected is ultimately destined to support a=
 widely-scoped security program, it may make more sense to go for the wider=
 data sharing problem more immediately in the solution&#39;s architecture. =
In a sense, the Compliance Server described in your article is one that ser=
ves, in reality, multiple purposes: One component (StrongSwan in the hackat=
hon effort) is part of a SACM Collector, and the other component is an eval=
uator and datastore. It may make sense to decouple those multiple purposes,=
 so that the Compliance Server portion of the ECP solution becomes a consum=
er of collected information, just like any other evaluator.</div><div><br><=
/div><div>There may be no reason (other than limited bandwidth in this wide=
r community) one approach should be excluded in favor of another.</div><div=
><br></div><div><div>All that said, I, too, am very interested in gaining a=
dditional feedback from others on this list, the SACM list, and/or the MILE=
 list.</div></div><div><br></div><div>Kind regards,</div><div><br></div><di=
v>Adam</div><div><br></div><div>[1]=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://github.com/sacm=
wg/vulnerability-scenario/tree/master/ietf_99_hackathon">https://github.com=
/sacmwg/vulnerability-scenario/tree/master/ietf_99_hackathon</a>=C2=A0</div=
><div>[2]=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://raw.githubusercontent.com/sacmwg/vulnerab=
ility-scenario/master/ietf_99_hackathon/graphics/hackathon_deployment_combi=
ned.png">https://raw.githubusercontent.com/sacmwg/vulnerability-scenario/ma=
ster/ietf_99_hackathon/graphics/hackathon_deployment_combined.png</a>=C2=A0=
</div></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Thu, J=
ul 27, 2017 at 11:49 AM Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jmfm=
ckay@gmail.com">jmfmckay@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;pad=
ding-left:1ex">Adam et al.,=C2=A0<div>Yes, there are a lot of places where =
sacm, panic and mile overlap. If you haven&#39;t read it, check out this (s=
hamelessly self-promoted) article:=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://www.ietfjournal.=
org/working-group-update-security-automation-and-continuous-monitoring/" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietfjournal.org/working-group-update-security-a=
utomation-and-continuous-monitoring/</a></div><div>It describes my point of=
 view of how these efforts intersect. I&#39;d love feedback on it.=C2=A0</d=
iv><div><br></div><div>Thanks,=C2=A0</div><div>Jess=C2=A0</div><div><br><br=
><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Wed, Jul 26, 2017, 4:55 PM =
Adam Montville &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adam.w.montville@gmail.com" target=3D"=
_blank">adam.w.montville@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;pad=
ding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi everyone.=C2=A0<div><br></div><div>It&#3=
9;s really good to see additional interest in this subject area! I encourag=
e you to review the existing ongoing work in the SACM working group - speci=
fically the requirements draft (hopefully through IESG soon; see [1]), one =
of the drafts under adoption consideration (Endpoint Compliance Profile: dr=
aft-haynes-sacm-ecp) [2], and a data model proposal for carrying SACM state=
ments (YANG subscribed notifications via SACM Statements: draft-birkholz-sa=
cm-yang-content; see [3]).<div><br></div><div>After a successful hackathon =
in Prague, we are redoubling our efforts on several of the topics with whic=
h PANIC appears to be concerned.=C2=A0 While not all of the work PANIC may =
imply should necessarily be done in the SACM group, I would suggest that th=
ose of us interested in PANIC look toward current working group drafts as w=
ell as those being considered for adoption as potentially viable approaches=
 to the PANIC problem.<div><br></div><div>Our SACM-related hackathon effort=
s are mostly documented at [4]. (Note that there were two SACM-related effo=
rts, though only one was exclusive to SACM.) We have designs for the next h=
ackathon to integrate these two related efforts (which may help answer the =
question about the link between posture server and data store), which could=
 look something like the diagram at the bottom of that page (also at [5]).<=
/div><div><br></div><div>Of course, there may be little-to-no overlap betwe=
en what SACM has been attempting to accomplish and what PANIC would like to=
 ultimately achieve.</div><div><br></div><div>Kind regards,</div><div><br><=
/div><div>Adam</div><div><br></div><div>[1]=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://datatra=
cker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sacm-requirements/" target=3D"_blank">https://=
datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-sacm-requirements/</a>=C2=A0</div><div>=
[2]=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-haynes-sacm-ecp/=
" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-haynes-sacm-ecp/=
</a>=C2=A0</div><div>[3] <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-=
birkholz-sacm-yang-content/" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org=
/doc/draft-birkholz-sacm-yang-content/</a>=C2=A0</div><div>[4]=C2=A0<a href=
=3D"https://github.com/sacmwg/vulnerability-scenario/tree/master/ietf_99_ha=
ckathon" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/sacmwg/vulnerability-scenario=
/tree/master/ietf_99_hackathon</a>=C2=A0</div><div>[5]=C2=A0<a href=3D"http=
s://raw.githubusercontent.com/sacmwg/vulnerability-scenario/master/ietf_99_=
hackathon/graphics/hackathon_deployment_combined.png" target=3D"_blank">htt=
ps://raw.githubusercontent.com/sacmwg/vulnerability-scenario/master/ietf_99=
_hackathon/graphics/hackathon_deployment_combined.png</a>=C2=A0</div><div><=
br></div></div></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">=
On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 1:46 PM Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:jmfmckay@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">jmfmckay@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:=
<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bord=
er-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gma=
il_default" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">Thanks for the feedback, Guy. Respon=
ses in-line. I have more questions than answers, and I&#39;d like others on=
 the list to weigh in. Looking forward to hearing from everyone.</div><div =
class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></div><div class=3D"=
gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"></div></div></div><div dir=3D"l=
tr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Jul 21, 2=
017 at 5:18 PM, Guy Fedorkow <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gfedor=
kow@juniper.net" target=3D"_blank">gfedorkow@juniper.net</a>&gt;</span> wro=
te:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;=
border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US">
<div class=3D"m_-7351121926730936162m_-1584446291402512173m_240334121801554=
688gmail-m_4133634189913856215gmail-m_118184026261968732WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Dave, Jessica,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 Thanks for updating the PANIC draft=E2=80=A6=
=C2=A0 I think it=E2=80=99s starting to take shape!<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 It seems that the next step in moving this fo=
rward might be to outline the kind of information we want to retrieve from =
the endpoints.=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99d assume you=E2=80=99d want some kind of inf=
o to identify the device =E2=80=93 manufacturer, serial number, etc,
 plus something that shows the software revision of the relevant modules.=
=C2=A0 Could that be something like a set of SWID tags?</p></div></div></bl=
ockquote><div><br></div></div></div></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gm=
ail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D=
"color:rgb(0,0,0)">=E2=80=8BPersonally, I would be delighted if software lo=
ad could be captured in a SWID tag. Failing that, I would like to be able t=
o collect a swid-like set of information from=E2=80=8B the network device. =
I took a look at NISTIR 8060 (which you can read here:=C2=A0<a href=3D"http=
://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/ir/2016/NIST.IR.8060.pdf" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tp://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/ir/2016/NIST.IR.8060.pdf</a>) and it looks l=
ike-- ignoring data about the tag itself, like tagID, entity information ab=
out the tag creator, etc-- =C2=A0required fields for a primary tag are:</di=
v><div class=3D"gmail_default"><ul><li><font color=3D"#000000">software nam=
e and</font></li><li><font color=3D"#000000">software version,</font></li><=
/ul><font color=3D"#000000">which should be easy enough to collect on their=
 own.</font></div><div class=3D"gmail_default"><font color=3D"#000000"><br>=
</font><div><font color=3D"#000000">But, SWID tags offer additional informa=
tion that could be useful to us. Evidence and payload fields, for instance,=
 can be used to communicate file hashes that comprise the software. Tag sig=
natures could allow us to have move trust in the entity that created the ta=
g (for example, a tag from the software vendor is potentially more trust wo=
rthy than one created by a third party). And SWIDs allow us to easily commu=
nicate what patches are installed on the product, which is necessary for vu=
lnerability and compliance assessments.</font></div><div><font color=3D"#00=
0000"><br></font></div><div><font color=3D"#000000">All things considered, =
I&#39;d like to use SWID tags. I would like a sense of how widely implement=
ed they are for network device software and operating systems. Anyone have =
any insight there?</font></div><div><font color=3D"#000000"><br></font></di=
v><div><font color=3D"#000000"><br></font></div></div></div></div></div><di=
v dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockq=
uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1p=
x solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US"><div class=
=3D"m_-7351121926730936162m_-1584446291402512173m_240334121801554688gmail-m=
_4133634189913856215gmail-m_118184026261968732WordSection1"><p class=3D"Mso=
Normal"><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 It might be good to pattern the device inform=
ation on IEEE 802.1AR.=C2=A0 Using a cryptographic ID might not be a =E2=80=
=98must=E2=80=99, but it=E2=80=99s probably a desirable option, so making s=
ure it would fit might be helpful.</p></div></div></blockquote><div><span s=
tyle=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></span></div></div></div></div><div dir=3D"lt=
r"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><span style=
=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">802.1ar requires installation =E2=80=8B<div class=3D"=
gmail_default" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);display:inline">=E2=80=8Bof an IDe=
vID, from which many LDevIDs can be created. I&#39;m happy to geek out on t=
he added security of cryptographic IDs, but, can we talk though the workflo=
w of getting the initial IDevID installed (who would be responsible for tha=
t? Do network equipment vendors use IDevIDs today? If not, could the device=
 owner install one without a lot of hassle?)=E2=80=8B.=C2=A0</div></span><b=
r></div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"><div class=3D"gmail_default" =
style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);display:inline"><br></div></span></div><div><span=
 style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"color:rgb=
(0,0,0);display:inline">Also, secure though 802.1ar is, it often has no rel=
ation to any observable device identities on the network. I&#39;m thinking =
about a behavior monitoring use case here, in which I notice a device behav=
ing in an unexpected manner, and want to investigate it&#39;s posture while=
 I figure out what is going on. Is there a way to gather many identities fr=
om an network device using netconf/yang?</div></span></div></div></div></di=
v><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><d=
iv><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"c=
olor:rgb(0,0,0);display:inline"><br></div></span></div><blockquote class=3D=
"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(2=
04,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US"><div class=3D"m_-73511219=
26730936162m_-1584446291402512173m_240334121801554688gmail-m_41336341899138=
56215gmail-m_118184026261968732WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=
<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0=C2=A0It might be good to add a note saying wh=
ether the draft should extend to virtualized devices, e.g., NFV instances.=
=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99d assume that it should, but that might make identity a bi=
t more complicated.</p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div></div>=
</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote=
"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">=E2=80=8BIn secti=
on 3 of the draft, we say &quot;=E2=80=8BVirtualized network functions are =
currently considered in scope&quot;. Of course, I worded it that way becaus=
e I, too, am concerned about whether their inclusion makes our solution ove=
rly complicated. Are there any netconf experts that can speak to this conce=
rn?</div></div></div></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div=
 class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0p=
x 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><d=
iv lang=3D"EN-US"><div class=3D"m_-7351121926730936162m_-158444629140251217=
3m_240334121801554688gmail-m_4133634189913856215gmail-m_118184026261968732W=
ordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 On the topic of scope, I suppose it might be =
good to say if =E2=80=9CThings=E2=80=9D, as in IoT, are in scope or not.=C2=
=A0 I can=E2=80=99t guess if that has an impact on the technical spec, but =
there certainly could be an impact on implied scaling needs, and it
 might help remind readers that figuring out what=E2=80=99s running in the =
IoT is a getting to be a big problem.</p></div></div></blockquote><div><br>=
</div></div></div></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)"=
>=E2=80=8BAgreed that IoT is a problem. Do many &quot;Things&quot; that com=
pose the Internet of Things implement netconf?=E2=80=8B It&#39;s such a bro=
ad space, I worry that some &quot;Things&quot; could handle netconf, and ot=
hers (things like &quot;smart dust&quot;, etc.) couldn&#39;t handle the add=
ed weight.</div></div></div></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extr=
a"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"color:r=
gb(0,0,0)"><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px =
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div=
 lang=3D"EN-US"><div class=3D"m_-7351121926730936162m_-1584446291402512173m=
_240334121801554688gmail-m_4133634189913856215gmail-m_118184026261968732Wor=
dSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 The diagram in the front of the draft shows a=
n interconnect between Posture Server and Data Store=E2=80=A6=C2=A0 seems l=
ike there could be some complicated transactions across that link=E2=80=A6=
=C2=A0 Do you think there=E2=80=99s existing practice that could be used fo=
r
 this?</p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div></div></div><div di=
r=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=
=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">=E2=80=8BSadly, I know of not=
hing we could easily point to and say &quot;that is the protocol we will us=
e for server-datastore communication&quot;. But, what I do not know could f=
ill volumes. Maybe others have ideas where we can start?=C2=A0</div></div><=
/div></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_=
quote"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">=E2=80=8B</d=
iv><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bord=
er-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US"><d=
iv class=3D"m_-7351121926730936162m_-1584446291402512173m_24033412180155468=
8gmail-m_4133634189913856215gmail-m_118184026261968732WordSection1"><p clas=
s=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 The draft also mentions methods that Endpoint=
s can use to find Posture servers.=C2=A0 I wonder if Zeroconf or some kind =
of DHCP trick might work for this?</p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></d=
iv></div></div></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">=
=E2=80=8BZeroconf is an option. TCG has some prior art here (<a href=3D"htt=
ps://www.trustedcomputinggroup.org/wp-content/uploads/Server_Discovery_And_=
Validation_v1_0r19-PUBLIC-REVIEW.pdf" target=3D"_blank">https://www.trusted=
computinggroup.org/wp-content/uploads/Server_Discovery_And_Validation_v1_0r=
19-PUBLIC-REVIEW.pdf</a>). I am happy to consider all viable options.=E2=80=
=8B</div></div></div></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div=
 class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,=
0)"><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px=
 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=
=3D"EN-US"><div class=3D"m_-7351121926730936162m_-1584446291402512173m_2403=
34121801554688gmail-m_4133634189913856215gmail-m_118184026261968732WordSect=
ion1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 Finally, in Security Considerations, I wonder=
 if there should be something about how much we do or don=E2=80=99t trust t=
he endpoint to report its Information truthfully.=C2=A0The combination of 8=
02.1AR and signed SWID tags might help with a way to
 assess the reliability of the information.</p></div></div></blockquote><di=
v><br></div></div></div></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><=
div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"color:rgb(0=
,0,0)">=E2=80=8BAgreed, I will add that to the next revision. =E2=80=8B</di=
v></div></div></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px =
0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lan=
g=3D"EN-US"><div class=3D"m_-7351121926730936162m_-1584446291402512173m_240=
334121801554688gmail-m_4133634189913856215gmail-m_118184026261968732WordSec=
tion1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 Great start, let=E2=80=99s try to start break=
ing down some of the top-level topics to get to the next level of requireme=
nts.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thx,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">/guy<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>

<br>_______________________________________________<br>
Panic mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Panic@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Panic@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/panic" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/panic</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div></div></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
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<a href=3D"mailto:Panic@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Panic@ietf.org</a><br>
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target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/panic</a><br>
</blockquote></div>
</blockquote></div></div></blockquote></div>

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Thread-Topic: [Panic] notes on Panic Draft
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From: "Xialiang (Frank)" <frank.xialiang@huawei.com>
To: "Panos Kampanakis (pkampana)" <pkampana@cisco.com>, "Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay" <jmfmckay@gmail.com>, Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net>
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Thread-Topic: [Panic] notes on Panic Draft
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From: "Diego R. Lopez" <diego.r.lopez@telefonica.com>
To: "Panos Kampanakis (pkampana)" <pkampana@cisco.com>
CC: Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay <jmfmckay@gmail.com>, Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net>, "Panic@ietf.org" <Panic@ietf.org>, "Iluminada Baturone" <lumi@imse-cnm.csic.es>
Thread-Topic: [Panic] notes on Panic Draft
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Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2017 20:21:02 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Panic] notes on Panic Draft
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