From nobody Sun Feb 3 19:29:55 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69BAC130DE5; Sun, 3 Feb 2019 19:29:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id h9IY3OztFCqk; Sun, 3 Feb 2019 19:29:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vk1-xa35.google.com (mail-vk1-xa35.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::a35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AAE1C1294FA; Sun, 3 Feb 2019 19:29:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-vk1-xa35.google.com with SMTP id v70so2868971vkv.7; Sun, 03 Feb 2019 19:29:44 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=BvW1WGrT1z/rNd4ARVLprjig3L/p7VSU6eVdQSMj0Y8=; b=lnyf8kp+OTvS8fnEGeEdqbH27jxqylcEt3zO5AOEJ4uioEmrKJYwajfnl6L+x0mMx1 AYRQmNGeLoU41jwDXs5rqDP1DeE59xQJGdP4klh4izuCSXzdY/YKUj6AwRSidqDct+wX OSRqXJJhmb063oqV0XMD6JFvboT6/6tCQGCZadfzJp0snWieL2XT6/djPS+yW+zSuVpc xwh2dvE+D2Y2tj22y+P/rYE9HagvOTEkTJNXk1y81+Xlucdbwv3JNc1Me3wralM3kSlE h9HBhOZ/VdMloufytmVecnWYj2d+VV+UUczQbHUwsHMrG+nOKCjDrPjC/6nq5QkDBsUm ZYwQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=BvW1WGrT1z/rNd4ARVLprjig3L/p7VSU6eVdQSMj0Y8=; b=CV+TsbR2XTNbp+3iAvi0Pa84EMnZ283EHa/4bDblBcA13QauA0akBx7SZPwCSoHIVo ygC4M8piCIGaoBmpTUU48t0KFMjzdTvikIfPg8VzaXMuWSSKI/Pcos4R0IFYt+sfDxU4 heaEk/Z3F3UQA4yhOvgyn0Zq6zQlnvxSo2IIIZK82IjdJ/zyDjHIX4jNsq+r33chBVNA GFcNIbqasWxJGc9A2T+4ax6Q8POXxSI6WWwqCjTCP2XlG7cy+HGkO/qEVlwgsMNbTvPt FHDvVI9u6JfCdzKfay0JMQfrY2b3sbCXW/omGI5AI/IaBtGBe2524dIkogIEoSZpJNPw GIpw== X-Gm-Message-State: AJcUukfCGwzZBx6LDMkOIXV0RbxgT78sSvzd2Tg6dHl8f9LTyiE60QtM aEHvMz6XsSbOhHjxshmkxUfZCRP+XPVG3xnDzPIrpFSJ X-Google-Smtp-Source: ALg8bN5Qy9pkAw/xfh+WHyyqAyVTHAyUE41S+fougQQW8D3L0753768Mu+QPswXUNpf2OFl9mf11MpFItUi1QHUDgsk= X-Received: by 2002:a1f:2ed7:: with SMTP id u206mr20832650vku.72.1549250983072; Sun, 03 Feb 2019 19:29:43 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Bernard Aboba Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2019 22:29:31 -0500 Message-ID: To: tsv-art@ietf.org Cc: payload@ietf.org, IETF discussion list , draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000839b4e0581091a12" Archived-At: Subject: [payload] TSVART telechat review of draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-16 X-BeenThere: payload@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Payloads working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2019 03:29:47 -0000 --000000000000839b4e0581091a12 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Reviewer: Bernard Aboba Review result: Needs clarifications This document has been reviewed as part of the transport area review team's ongoing effort to review key IETF documents. These comments were written primarily for the transport area directors, but are copied to the document's authors and WG to allow them to address any issues raised and also to the IETF discussion list for information. When done at the time of IETF Last Call, the authors should consider this review as part of the last-call comments they receive. Please always CC tsv-art@ietf.org if you reply to or forward this review. Document: draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-16 My reading of the document raised questions relating to implementation requirements as well as the configuration and use of the Flexible Mask mode (R=0, F=0). Presumably, this mode can be used to choose arbitrary packets to protect. There is not much discussion of flexible mode early in the document, and no use cases are presented relating to this mode. However, it would appear to me that flexible mode can be used to implement scenarios such as differential protection for Scalable Video Coding. For example, the sender could use flexible mode to only protect base layer packets by using a flexible mask to select only packets sent with TID = 0 and SID = 0. Since with flexible mode the mask is not negotiated and thus can be varied on the fly, it would appear to me that differential protection can be provided even in situations where the number of layers encoded (and even the temporal/spatial encoding mode) vary on the fly. If this interpretation is correct, I would suggest adding a section after 1.1.4 covering the flexible mask mode and a differential protection use case for it. It also would appear to me that flexible mode could be used to implement dynamic FEC, but I'll leave it to the authors to decide whether to mention that use case. With respect to SDP parameters (L, D, ToP) defined in Section 5.1.1, I was unclear on several points: 1. Is it possible to configure a ToP value to indicate that the sender desires to utilize both FEC and retransmission? Or must the sender choose to utilize this payload for one or the other but not both? 2. What happens if both RTX and flexible FEC with retransmission are Offered in SDP? Could this result in the sender being allowed to send both types of retransmission (though presumably only one at a time)? Are the type(s) of retransmission used determined by which retransmission schemes are provided in the Answer? 3. If L and D are not specified, does this imply that the sender will operate in flexible mode? Are implementations of the specification required to support all of the modes except for the F=1, R=1 mode that is forbidden? If not, how does an Answerer indicate that it doesn't support the mode that is Offered? 4. Does the negotiation of L, D and ToP in SDP imply that the sender cannot switch to use of another configuration without renegotiation? Since the flexible FEC format is self-describing, it would appear to me that switching should be possible as long as the implementation requirements are clear. For example, do all implementations needs to support all mask sizes? --000000000000839b4e0581091a12 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Reviewer:=C2=A0 Bernard Aboba
Review result:=C2=A0 Nee= ds clarifications

This document has been reviewed as= part of the transport area review team's
ongoing effort to review k= ey IETF documents. These comments were written
primarily for the transpo= rt area directors, but are copied to the document's
authors and WG t= o allow them to address any issues raised and also to the IETF discussion l= ist for information.

When done at the time of IETF Last Call, the au= thors should consider this
review as part of the last-call comments they= receive. Please always CC
tsv-art@ietf.org=C2=A0if you reply to or forward this review.<= br>
Document: draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-16

My reading of the document raised questions relati= ng to implementation requirements as well as the configuration and use of t= he Flexible Mask mode (R=3D0, F=3D0).=C2=A0 Presumably, this mode can be us= ed to choose arbitrary packets to protect. There is not much discussion of = flexible mode early in the document, and no use cases are presented relatin= g to this mode.=C2=A0 However, it would appear to me that flexible mode can= be used to implement scenarios such as differential protection for Scalabl= e Video Coding.=C2=A0=C2=A0

For example, the sende= r could use flexible mode to only protect base layer packets by using a fle= xible mask to select only packets sent with TID =3D 0 and SID =3D 0.=C2=A0 = Since with flexible mode the mask is not negotiated and thus can be varied = on the fly, it would appear to me that differential protection can be provi= ded even in situations where the number of layers encoded (and even the tem= poral/spatial encoding mode) vary on the fly.=C2=A0

If this interpretation is correct, I would suggest adding a section after= 1.1.4 covering the flexible mask mode and a differential protection use ca= se for it.=C2=A0
It also would appear to me that flexible mode co= uld be used to implement dynamic FEC, but I'll leave it to the authors = to decide whether to mention that use case.=C2=A0

= With respect to SDP parameters (L, D, ToP) defined in Section 5.1.1, I was = unclear on several points:=C2=A0

1. Is it possible= to configure a ToP value to indicate that the sender desires to utilize bo= th FEC and retransmission?=C2=A0 Or must the sender choose to utilize this = payload for one or the other but not both?=C2=A0

2= . What happens if both RTX and flexible FEC with retransmission are Offered= in SDP?=C2=A0 Could this result in the sender being allowed to send both t= ypes of retransmission (though presumably only one at a time)?=C2=A0 Are th= e type(s) of retransmission used determined by which retransmission schemes= are provided in the Answer?=C2=A0

3. If L and D a= re not specified, does this imply that the sender will operate in flexible = mode?=C2=A0 Are implementations of the specification required to support al= l of the modes except for the F=3D1, R=3D1 mode that is forbidden?=C2=A0 If= not, how does an Answerer indicate that it doesn't support the mode th= at is Offered?

4. Does the negotiation of L, D and= ToP in SDP imply that the sender cannot switch to use of another configura= tion without renegotiation?=C2=A0 Since the flexible FEC format is self-des= cribing, it would appear to me that switching should be possible as long as= the implementation requirements are clear.=C2=A0 For example, do all imple= mentations needs to support all mask sizes?=C2=A0

--000000000000839b4e0581091a12-- From nobody Sun Feb 3 19:48:43 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77F1C1294FA; Sun, 3 Feb 2019 19:48:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xHJ6yL0xTntk; Sun, 3 Feb 2019 19:48:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vs1-xe41.google.com (mail-vs1-xe41.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::e41]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B388312008A; Sun, 3 Feb 2019 19:48:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-vs1-xe41.google.com with SMTP id n10so7666344vso.13; Sun, 03 Feb 2019 19:48:38 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Zuz0zUiI6YPP95pbz1V7+8RAKg448yh+BcYINNlpfRc=; b=g2sRHaTUw5Abw4yQRP6T3M21dRnpX25hHik1lkAajytrSnF4oLq0KU4yfnkqROE/kw p/gWDKtWYJ6H5bP841hngCnjOZWoF4GfanjpGT+dBERquA/EqncowwJw9PkbSVWvSOrI E5+tFhMzfuLNkii4BaXUdLgMZoyTY8OxoK+jn34cIDXl5mcSyIUIG7ucktSfrlqMqYd1 0XaZhMTjqeBz5Y2vUUPXahfYjy1gYjpSOEt2Rdv7b1qBm+pptWaz0J6DPpF8cb0ngNcs rFEV1hYrKZmO97xem+vRFixj1dhHkCADeI4mZP4LYorxb8wb3s6crI42GiiNjQwqyNIE PS1g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Zuz0zUiI6YPP95pbz1V7+8RAKg448yh+BcYINNlpfRc=; b=WONpxOoj2IWLKjmpGy0dfu+VP/SBAfp5xZks0wPrq1bF77EE2D/kO5LVaKUHfBnxlE Gb0EKfXca0dEIkr45N2cvkU+EcpfYx9bJORrDNbmv6lo1QtqdJY/8UlSS6LbONKGfOB5 fYn8k7c6jTTPkpSrjTZFsU3SvXTf2N639BQ0H5G9imMSWotSQv1gJWUI3CMwF+0BWmwP gXIQKcaWLd+gUdeJND/Lcz7b+rQukwKL8cE3EWufXK7ewhD+o8OPVt8MfcFXWzGAU4Gw kSJ9Y1slM+WgiQgxm+i9trRzQi5u4pBYmPDLFIFBeGGKyQAcj1cA2Cs5v0lltP1I12+r Mrlg== X-Gm-Message-State: AJcUukeFLtfn8x4a5+C2TXh6xMel0YuBS2x3Boy1PtDQnc/QSvE/3tCg EiS1uy4suXKHbjUHnnJxfufjwf86vjNLuNiA/aW/6nIA X-Google-Smtp-Source: ALg8bN7jPsaN5Z4F7WqLGsqFrvji5kNX2p0NqPJAvbiuqn/c3USQ7aZhIQUsrLZfMS0phU2S1q78OgJydgSbf7DIim8= X-Received: by 2002:a67:42c7:: with SMTP id p190mr22622816vsa.82.1549252117154; Sun, 03 Feb 2019 19:48:37 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Bernard Aboba Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2019 22:48:26 -0500 Message-ID: To: tsv-art@ietf.org Cc: payload@ietf.org, IETF discussion list , draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001c50ea0581095e39" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [payload] TSVART telechat review of draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-16 X-BeenThere: payload@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Payloads working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2019 03:48:42 -0000 --0000000000001c50ea0581095e39 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Some additional notes: 1. The spec says that absence of a ToP value means that any ToP is allowable, but it doesn't explicitly say that implementations needs to support all ToP types. So I was unclear whether it might be necessary to Offer multiple potential flexible FEC configurations so as to be able to negotiate what ToP values each side can handle, and if so, how this would work. Personally, things would be simpler if the spec were to mandate support for as many features as possible so as to avoid the need to put multiple potential configurations into an Offer. 2. With respect to Offer/Answer, Section 5.2.1 strikes me as potentially quite complex: Each combination of the L and D parameters produces a different FEC data and is not compatible with any other combination. A sender application may desire to offer multiple offers with different sets of L and D values as long as the parameter values are valid. The receiver SHOULD choose the offer that has a sufficient amount of interleaving. If multiple such offers exist, the receiver may choose the offer that has the lowest overhead or the one that requires the smallest amount of buffering. The selection depends on the application requirements. [BA] By "multiple Offers" I presume you are not talking about multiple rounds of O/A or multiple Offers sent at once, but rather multiple SDP lines describing potential configurations. In this paragraph, "choosing" the offer presumably refers to the configurations that are provided in the Answer? What if the Answerer wants to utilize a very configuration from what is in the Offer? On Sun, Feb 3, 2019 at 10:29 PM Bernard Aboba wrote: > Reviewer: Bernard Aboba > Review result: Needs clarifications > > This document has been reviewed as part of the transport area review team's > ongoing effort to review key IETF documents. These comments were written > primarily for the transport area directors, but are copied to the > document's > authors and WG to allow them to address any issues raised and also to the > IETF discussion list for information. > > When done at the time of IETF Last Call, the authors should consider this > review as part of the last-call comments they receive. Please always CC > tsv-art@ietf.org if you reply to or forward this review. > > Document: draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-16 > > My reading of the document raised questions relating to implementation > requirements as well as the configuration and use of the Flexible Mask mode > (R=0, F=0). Presumably, this mode can be used to choose arbitrary packets > to protect. There is not much discussion of flexible mode early in the > document, and no use cases are presented relating to this mode. However, > it would appear to me that flexible mode can be used to implement scenarios > such as differential protection for Scalable Video Coding. > > For example, the sender could use flexible mode to only protect base layer > packets by using a flexible mask to select only packets sent with TID = 0 > and SID = 0. Since with flexible mode the mask is not negotiated and thus > can be varied on the fly, it would appear to me that differential > protection can be provided even in situations where the number of layers > encoded (and even the temporal/spatial encoding mode) vary on the fly. > > If this interpretation is correct, I would suggest adding a section after > 1.1.4 covering the flexible mask mode and a differential protection use > case for it. > It also would appear to me that flexible mode could be used to implement > dynamic FEC, but I'll leave it to the authors to decide whether to mention > that use case. > > With respect to SDP parameters (L, D, ToP) defined in Section 5.1.1, I was > unclear on several points: > > 1. Is it possible to configure a ToP value to indicate that the sender > desires to utilize both FEC and retransmission? Or must the sender choose > to utilize this payload for one or the other but not both? > > 2. What happens if both RTX and flexible FEC with retransmission are > Offered in SDP? Could this result in the sender being allowed to send both > types of retransmission (though presumably only one at a time)? Are the > type(s) of retransmission used determined by which retransmission schemes > are provided in the Answer? > > 3. If L and D are not specified, does this imply that the sender will > operate in flexible mode? Are implementations of the specification > required to support all of the modes except for the F=1, R=1 mode that is > forbidden? If not, how does an Answerer indicate that it doesn't support > the mode that is Offered? > > 4. Does the negotiation of L, D and ToP in SDP imply that the sender > cannot switch to use of another configuration without renegotiation? Since > the flexible FEC format is self-describing, it would appear to me that > switching should be possible as long as the implementation requirements are > clear. For example, do all implementations needs to support all mask > sizes? > > > --0000000000001c50ea0581095e39 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Some additional notes:=C2=A0

1. The spec says that abs= ence of a ToP value means that any ToP is allowable, but it doesn't exp= licitly say that implementations needs to support all ToP types.=C2=A0 So I= was unclear whether it might be necessary to Offer multiple potential flex= ible FEC configurations so as to be able to negotiate what ToP values each = side can handle, and if so, how this would work. Personally, things would b= e simpler if the spec were to mandate support for as many features as possi= ble so as to avoid the need to put multiple potential configurations into a= n Offer.=C2=A0

2. With respect to Offer/Answer, Se= ction 5.2.1 strikes me as potentially quite complex:=C2=A0
      Each combinatio=
n of the L and D parameters produces a different
      FEC data and is not compatible with any other combination.  A
      sender application may desire to offer multiple offers with
      different sets of L and D values as long as the parameter values
      are valid.  The receiver SHOULD choose the offer that has a
      sufficient amount of interleaving.  If multiple such offers exist,
      the receiver may choose the offer that has the lowest overhead or
      the one that requires the smallest amount of buffering.  The
      selection depends on the application requirements.
[BA] By "multiple Offers" I presume you ar=
e not talking about multiple rounds of O/A or multiple Offers sent at once,=

but rather multiple SDP lines describing potential configuration=
s.=C2=A0 In this paragraph, "choosing" the offer
presum=
ably refers to the configurations that are provided in the Answer?=C2=A0 Wh=
at if the Answerer wants to utilize a very
configuration from wha=
t is in the Offer?=C2=A0=C2=A0

On Sun, Feb 3, 2019 at 10:29 PM Bernard Aboba <bernard.aboba@gmail.com> wrote:
Revie= wer:=C2=A0 Bernard Aboba
Review result:=C2=A0 Needs clarifications

This document has been reviewed as part of the transport = area review team's
ongoing effort to review key IETF documents. Thes= e comments were written
primarily for the transport area directors, but = are copied to the document's
authors and WG to allow them to address= any issues raised and also to the IETF discussion list for information.
When done at the time of IETF Last Call, the authors should consider t= his
review as part of the last-call comments they receive. Please always= CC
tsv-art@ietf.o= rg=C2=A0if you reply to or forward this review.

Document: draft-= ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-16

My reading of the document raised questions relating to implementation re= quirements as well as the configuration and use of the Flexible Mask mode (= R=3D0, F=3D0).=C2=A0 Presumably, this mode can be used to choose arbitrary = packets to protect. There is not much discussion of flexible mode early in = the document, and no use cases are presented relating to this mode.=C2=A0 H= owever, it would appear to me that flexible mode can be used to implement s= cenarios such as differential protection for Scalable Video Coding.=C2=A0= =C2=A0

For example, the sender could use flexible = mode to only protect base layer packets by using a flexible mask to select = only packets sent with TID =3D 0 and SID =3D 0.=C2=A0 Since with flexible m= ode the mask is not negotiated and thus can be varied on the fly, it would = appear to me that differential protection can be provided even in situation= s where the number of layers encoded (and even the temporal/spatial encodin= g mode) vary on the fly.=C2=A0

If this interpretat= ion is correct, I would suggest adding a section after 1.1.4 covering the f= lexible mask mode and a differential protection use case for it.=C2=A0
It also would appear to me that flexible mode could be used to implem= ent dynamic FEC, but I'll leave it to the authors to decide whether to = mention that use case.=C2=A0

With respect to SDP p= arameters (L, D, ToP) defined in Section 5.1.1, I was unclear on several po= ints:=C2=A0

1. Is it possible to configure a ToP v= alue to indicate that the sender desires to utilize both FEC and retransmis= sion?=C2=A0 Or must the sender choose to utilize this payload for one or th= e other but not both?=C2=A0

2. What happens if bot= h RTX and flexible FEC with retransmission are Offered in SDP?=C2=A0 Could = this result in the sender being allowed to send both types of retransmissio= n (though presumably only one at a time)?=C2=A0 Are the type(s) of retransm= ission used determined by which retransmission schemes are provided in the = Answer?=C2=A0

3. If L and D are not specified, doe= s this imply that the sender will operate in flexible mode?=C2=A0 Are imple= mentations of the specification required to support all of the modes except= for the F=3D1, R=3D1 mode that is forbidden?=C2=A0 If not, how does an Ans= werer indicate that it doesn't support the mode that is Offered?
<= div>
4. Does the negotiation of L, D and ToP in SDP imply tha= t the sender cannot switch to use of another configuration without renegoti= ation?=C2=A0 Since the flexible FEC format is self-describing, it would app= ear to me that switching should be possible as long as the implementation r= equirements are clear.=C2=A0 For example, do all implementations needs to s= upport all mask sizes?=C2=A0


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a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=lmD6+ScDbQg9s6yLJukrRJDzjrYgdfTKCONf7TRpmc8=; b=eTC2rfU4Lbx9NFFo0BleRQggoF9BUUTn5stTI6qNG9ACJrp032bZqNqxOHQDoTSsEx 8FsN/wkv5/3cX/bSWDDvTeFoxYGsSN+KT9/86vD0gUlBw74KWLH/K76jl7pub5aiyUL0 ZJRZT1bHBLPFQmU3FO/KDO0G3rKi3VDJ+s/qP1UIOeAm7mlryo35rLb0mUPAswzmPLZ/ CVzhiDMBBugIOr/ey8YrmVWcKnXIKphuXMwRSGONoPIA2yZVW5PrdPHUYQnn9+yz8wC6 r+U2ddhlXgj6itZ8BZCGXD7apqYv2HB0rMWXL5lP2TCOvEVcQOrCuU7xb8InsYBthE/X V0Bg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=lmD6+ScDbQg9s6yLJukrRJDzjrYgdfTKCONf7TRpmc8=; b=TTSzBMaKNYwhRxkJpEMvpgvCb+B1ozStzmc5U1cUX5RARiuhplwwkFPTzktOMbhn3S 9mcGObzig0w8RWu4d3sYc8pJHfZPw+YJi3pqEGROWXwu3LhvM9QLNutsGiSfNkQuNtWW XaPkPxwo0bD4Ycs/BMEoSEISo/P6fqzGLyB025bnrlAr8f+EFtb+Ao/Mk35JlFUcQ9En DJBY6l5xhyBGbDdwAEYMajSCf0TgBEhPXtRx7nGaPnr6bhaBraPR0SXSN0UqaaKAkbkc k1rgijk3kCtFoWEKpA8j7G76P4MyC9ZvXye1VBRJ+4+fLodGU64ujcJE2uJ1YoE9ysis +Suw== X-Gm-Message-State: AJcUukexPLI+H7E9o/wkLEvzOHpFUmY2xWUI/HLv2+zH1bHvacDgmeSE yqFDhveV+FkG2K2JQxJHpOLp1WbXyWxqHi60qdhzpw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ALg8bN7u2y2fNAbSUFC4iqJ9ln4a6D/k+GBvR5PgIKLIMJQPMAeUAeml6O1v4xT+K73Z3SZFJO8spxjGsOIjWrc+Wa4= X-Received: by 2002:ab0:498d:: with SMTP id e13mr21021609uad.134.1549258561186; Sun, 03 Feb 2019 21:36:01 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <60f081439d6945298288ba5841f48a34@NASANEXM01C.na.qualcomm.com> In-Reply-To: <60f081439d6945298288ba5841f48a34@NASANEXM01C.na.qualcomm.com> From: Bernard Aboba Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2019 00:35:50 -0500 Message-ID: To: Giridhar Mandyam Cc: IETF discussion list , "draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme@ietf.org" , "payload@ietf.org" , "tsv-art@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000034707905810adeb5" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [payload] TSVART telechat review of draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-16 X-BeenThere: payload@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Payloads working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2019 05:36:05 -0000 --00000000000034707905810adeb5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Meant very different. For example, in a conferencing scenario a participant sends SVC with differential protection via flexible mode and the conferencing server sends a single layer with 2D. On Mon, Feb 4, 2019 at 12:31 AM Giridhar Mandyam wrote: > > What if the Answerer wants to utilize a very configuration from what is= in the Offer? > > > > What is =E2=80=9Ca very configuration=E2=80=9D actually meant to convey? = Did you mean > =E2=80=9Cevery configuration=E2=80=9D? > > > > Thanks, > > > > -Giri Mandyam > > > > *From:* Bernard Aboba > *Sent:* Sunday, February 3, 2019 7:48 PM > *To:* tsv-art@ietf.org > *Cc:* payload@ietf.org; IETF discussion list ; > draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: TSVART telechat review of > draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-16 > > > > *CAUTION*: This email originated from outside of the organization. > > Some additional notes: > > > > 1. The spec says that absence of a ToP value means that any ToP is > allowable, but it doesn't explicitly say that implementations needs to > support all ToP types. So I was unclear whether it might be necessary to > Offer multiple potential flexible FEC configurations so as to be able to > negotiate what ToP values each side can handle, and if so, how this would > work. Personally, things would be simpler if the spec were to mandate > support for as many features as possible so as to avoid the need to put > multiple potential configurations into an Offer. > > > > 2. With respect to Offer/Answer, Section 5.2.1 strikes me as potentially > quite complex: > > Each combination of the L and D parameters produces a different > > FEC data and is not compatible with any other combination. A > > sender application may desire to offer multiple offers with > > different sets of L and D values as long as the parameter values > > are valid. The receiver SHOULD choose the offer that has a > > sufficient amount of interleaving. If multiple such offers exist, > > the receiver may choose the offer that has the lowest overhead or > > the one that requires the smallest amount of buffering. The > > selection depends on the application requirements. > > [BA] By "multiple Offers" I presume you are not talking about multiple ro= unds of O/A or multiple Offers sent at once, > > but rather multiple SDP lines describing potential configurations. In th= is paragraph, "choosing" the offer > > presumably refers to the configurations that are provided in the Answer? = What if the Answerer wants to utilize a very > > configuration from what is in the Offer? > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Feb 3, 2019 at 10:29 PM Bernard Aboba > wrote: > > Reviewer: Bernard Aboba > > Review result: Needs clarifications > > > > This document has been reviewed as part of the transport area review team= 's > ongoing effort to review key IETF documents. These comments were written > primarily for the transport area directors, but are copied to the > document's > authors and WG to allow them to address any issues raised and also to the > IETF discussion list for information. > > When done at the time of IETF Last Call, the authors should consider this > review as part of the last-call comments they receive. Please always CC > tsv-art@ietf.org if you reply to or forward this review. > > Document: draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-16 > > > > My reading of the document raised questions relating to implementation > requirements as well as the configuration and use of the Flexible Mask mo= de > (R=3D0, F=3D0). Presumably, this mode can be used to choose arbitrary pa= ckets > to protect. There is not much discussion of flexible mode early in the > document, and no use cases are presented relating to this mode. However, > it would appear to me that flexible mode can be used to implement scenari= os > such as differential protection for Scalable Video Coding. > > > > For example, the sender could use flexible mode to only protect base laye= r > packets by using a flexible mask to select only packets sent with TID =3D= 0 > and SID =3D 0. Since with flexible mode the mask is not negotiated and t= hus > can be varied on the fly, it would appear to me that differential > protection can be provided even in situations where the number of layers > encoded (and even the temporal/spatial encoding mode) vary on the fly. > > > > If this interpretation is correct, I would suggest adding a section after > 1.1.4 covering the flexible mask mode and a differential protection use > case for it. > > It also would appear to me that flexible mode could be used to implement > dynamic FEC, but I'll leave it to the authors to decide whether to mentio= n > that use case. > > > > With respect to SDP parameters (L, D, ToP) defined in Section 5.1.1, I wa= s > unclear on several points: > > > > 1. Is it possible to configure a ToP value to indicate that the sender > desires to utilize both FEC and retransmission? Or must the sender choos= e > to utilize this payload for one or the other but not both? > > > > 2. What happens if both RTX and flexible FEC with retransmission are > Offered in SDP? Could this result in the sender being allowed to send bo= th > types of retransmission (though presumably only one at a time)? Are the > type(s) of retransmission used determined by which retransmission schemes > are provided in the Answer? > > > > 3. If L and D are not specified, does this imply that the sender will > operate in flexible mode? Are implementations of the specification > required to support all of the modes except for the F=3D1, R=3D1 mode tha= t is > forbidden? If not, how does an Answerer indicate that it doesn't support > the mode that is Offered? > > > > 4. Does the negotiation of L, D and ToP in SDP imply that the sender > cannot switch to use of another configuration without renegotiation? Sin= ce > the flexible FEC format is self-describing, it would appear to me that > switching should be possible as long as the implementation requirements a= re > clear. For example, do all implementations needs to support all mask > sizes? > > > > > > --00000000000034707905810adeb5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Meant very different. For example, in a conferencing= scenario a participant sends SVC with differential protection via flexible= mode and the conferencing server sends a single layer with 2D.
=

On Mon, Feb 4, 2019 at= 12:31 AM Giridhar Mandyam <= mandyam@qti.qualcomm.com> wrote:
>=
 What if the Answerer wants to utilize a very configuration fr=
om what is in the Offer?=C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0

What is =E2=80=9Ca very configuration=E2=80=9D actua= lly meant to convey?=C2=A0 Did you mean =E2=80=9Cevery configuration=E2=80= =9D?

=C2=A0

Thanks,

=C2=A0

-Giri Mandyam

=C2=A0

From: Bernard Aboba <bernard.aboba@gmail.com> Sent: Sunday, February 3, 2019 7:48 PM
To: tsv-art@ie= tf.org
Cc: payload@ie= tf.org; IETF discussion list <ietf@ietf.org>; draft-ietf-payload-flexible-f= ec-scheme@ietf.org
Subject: Re: TSVART telechat review of draft-ietf-payload-flexible-f= ec-scheme-16

=C2=A0

CAUTION: This = email originated from outside of the organization.

=

Some additional notes:=C2=A0

=C2=A0

1. The spec says that = absence of a ToP value means that any ToP is allowable, but it doesn't = explicitly say that implementations needs to support all ToP types.=C2=A0 S= o I was unclear whether it might be necessary to Offer multiple potential flexible FEC configurations so as to be able t= o negotiate what ToP values each side can handle, and if so, how this would= work. Personally, things would be simpler if the spec were to mandate supp= ort for as many features as possible so as to avoid the need to put multiple potential configurations into an O= ffer.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

2. With respect to Off= er/Answer, Section 5.2.1 strikes me as potentially quite complex:=C2=A0<= /u>

=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Each combination of the L and D parameters produces a di=
fferent
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 FEC data an=
d is not compatible with any other combination.=C2=A0 A
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 sender appl=
ication may desire to offer multiple offers with
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 different s=
ets of L and D values as long as the parameter values<=
/pre>

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 are valid.=
=C2=A0 The receiver SHOULD choose the offer that has a=



=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 sufficient =
amount of interleaving.=C2=A0 If multiple such offers exist,<=
/span>


=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0the receive=
r may choose the offer that has the lowest overhead or=



=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the one tha=
t requires the smallest amount of buffering.=C2=A0 The=



=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 selection d=
epends on the application requirements.






[BA] By "multiple Offers=
" I presume you are not talking about multiple rounds of O/A or multip=
le Offers sent at once,






but rather multiple SDP lines describing potential config=
urations.=C2=A0 In this paragraph, "choosing" the offer=







presumably refers to the configurations that are provided=
 in the Answer?=C2=A0 What if the Answerer wants to utilize a very






configuration from what is in the Offer?=C2=A0=C2=A0






=C2=A0


=C2=A0


=C2=A0


=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Sun, Feb 3, 2019 at 10:29 PM Bernard Aboba <bernard.aboba@gm= ail.com> wrote:

Reviewer:=C2=A0 Bernard Aboba

Review result:=C2=A0 Needs clarifications<= /u>

=C2=A0

This document has been= reviewed as part of the transport area review team's
ongoing effort to review key IETF documents. These comments were written primarily for the transport area directors, but are copied to the document&= #39;s
authors and WG to allow them to address any issues raised and also to the I= ETF discussion list for information.

When done at the time of IETF Last Call, the authors should consider this review as part of the last-call comments they receive. Please always CC
tsv-art@ietf.org= =C2=A0if you reply to or forward this review.

Document: draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-16

=C2=A0

My reading of the docu= ment raised questions relating to implementation requirements as well as th= e configuration and use of the Flexible Mask mode (R=3D0, F=3D0).=C2=A0 Pre= sumably, this mode can be used to choose arbitrary packets to protect. There is not much discussion of flexible mode early in= the document, and no use cases are presented relating to this mode.=C2=A0 = However, it would appear to me that flexible mode can be used to implement = scenarios such as differential protection for Scalable Video Coding.=C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0

For example, the sende= r could use flexible mode to only protect base layer packets by using a fle= xible mask to select only packets sent with TID =3D 0 and SID =3D 0.=C2=A0 = Since with flexible mode the mask is not negotiated and thus can be varied on the fly, it would appear to me that differential= protection can be provided even in situations where the number of layers e= ncoded (and even the temporal/spatial encoding mode) vary on the fly.=C2=A0=

=C2=A0

If this interpretation= is correct, I would suggest adding a section after 1.1.4 covering the flex= ible mask mode and a differential protection use case for it.=C2=A0<= u>

It also would appear t= o me that flexible mode could be used to implement dynamic FEC, but I'l= l leave it to the authors to decide whether to mention that use case.=C2=A0=

=C2=A0

With respect to SDP pa= rameters (L, D, ToP) defined in Section 5.1.1, I was unclear on several poi= nts:=C2=A0

=C2=A0

1. Is it possible to c= onfigure a ToP value to indicate that the sender desires to utilize both FE= C and retransmission?=C2=A0 Or must the sender choose to utilize this paylo= ad for one or the other but not both?=C2=A0

=C2=A0

2. What happens if bot= h RTX and flexible FEC with retransmission are Offered in SDP?=C2=A0 Could = this result in the sender being allowed to send both types of retransmissio= n (though presumably only one at a time)?=C2=A0 Are the type(s) of retransmission used determined by which retransmission = schemes are provided in the Answer?=C2=A0

=C2=A0

3. If L and D are not = specified, does this imply that the sender will operate in flexible mode?= =C2=A0 Are implementations of the specification required to support all of = the modes except for the F=3D1, R=3D1 mode that is forbidden?=C2=A0 If not, how does an Answerer indicate that it doesn= 9;t support the mode that is Offered?

=C2=A0

4. Does the negotiatio= n of L, D and ToP in SDP imply that the sender cannot switch to use of anot= her configuration without renegotiation?=C2=A0 Since the flexible FEC forma= t is self-describing, it would appear to me that switching should be possible as long as the implementation require= ments are clear.=C2=A0 For example, do all implementations needs to support= all mask sizes?=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

--00000000000034707905810adeb5-- From nobody Mon Feb 4 05:38:50 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E6EB12D4EF for ; Mon, 4 Feb 2019 05:38:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aRSw2kfhs_eQ for ; Mon, 4 Feb 2019 05:38:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailout1.cwwtf.bbc.co.uk (mailout1.cwwtf.bbc.co.uk [132.185.160.180]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0F71E128CF3 for ; Mon, 4 Feb 2019 05:38:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from BGB01XI1012.national.core.bbc.co.uk (bgb01xi1012.national.core.bbc.co.uk [10.161.14.16]) by mailout1.cwwtf.bbc.co.uk (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id x14DcOGk021953; Mon, 4 Feb 2019 13:38:24 GMT Received: from BGB01XUD1001.national.core.bbc.co.uk ([10.184.52.80]) by BGB01XI1012.national.core.bbc.co.uk ([10.161.14.16]) with mapi id 14.03.0408.000; Mon, 4 Feb 2019 13:38:23 +0000 From: James Sandford To: "Roni Even (A)" , "payload@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: new draft - RTP Payload for TTML Timed Text Thread-Index: AdSuh6AYULm9HPIlScy9aWUDvmlrAACC8EFwANoyep0CJKK8hw== Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2019 13:38:22 +0000 Message-ID: <734752AF0E88364D983373FE5CEFED57594B72F8@bgb01xud1001> References: <734752AF0E88364D983373FE5CEFED575941480A@bgb01xud1001>, <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD18CA4C74@dggemm526-mbx.china.huawei.com>, <734752AF0E88364D983373FE5CEFED57594A6CDF@bgb01xud1001> In-Reply-To: <734752AF0E88364D983373FE5CEFED57594A6CDF@bgb01xud1001> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-GB X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [172.19.161.212] x-exclaimer-md-config: 1cd3ac1c-62e5-43f2-8404-6b688271c769 x-tm-as-product-ver: SMEX-12.5.0.1300-8.2.1013-24054.007 x-tm-as-result: No-23.744600-8.000000-10 x-tmase-matchedrid: JQSF04SbSlQ7iuZ/mdYYtndysr7mPnqL6kOL/MSUCvdfz3eqPsVF7tKD F5sBjuJXqb8bt5iwUztYKMMlFh4BnYWdLRedvR18Hp6T0pXs+wOY2spSGP3t2KduVYQZj4GSDzu eAsqJuiuUocUWkvA59bqQyAveNtg60zEP/d7xPF1G2qlFbyxbItLQxtZ8WmAA36LcfL2m62CSU8 48M/hs6Me4Woyb+kVFBu2zRCSrLjYz7HWSgiz9puKXXcdjR6OeeUQNvU47zugay/dQGREz6hZyu jUA4ciaPfIwL8D544uxT6X3XrQLU540LLS5ukr9jkHzuzV1lARa+IvitVf2inNSw0A2LoSsEl3f wzjG35gVtheJRz9FQZVRzPxemJL0x/jMcb8Q/aOI4r+VR7nXr3vgMYu7ATxvX6foNbQnvkip/R4 +UWUejXG1BXlp3T1v6/xAZojbl7eFBoWoxESWCVpbYq2f4jz+em0L3kwJxTdO4let0YztMxyido MZdSQiQKbqzl//zc0zw5Ejs3g1ls9ZbgogvG8E6VtdwUtYTw0csiaXpLmd9+nKgNTHhdekKLPiE S4Vo+8BpSH8Hht+gLMsPmSZxbpkW3Tqgx/NSkr7n73d09vr98YEj5ow6Wtc82EkdHAYSiB1atno 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YXNlIG5vdGUgdGhhdCB0aGUgPHNwYW4gY2xhc3M9ImlsIj5CQkM8L3NwYW4+IG1vbml0b3JzIGUt bWFpbHMgc2VudCBvciByZWNlaXZlZC48YnI+DQpGdXJ0aGVyIGNvbW11bmljYXRpb24gd2lsbCBz aWduaWZ5IHlvdXIgY29uc2VudCB0byB0aGlzLjwvZm9udD48L2ZvbnQ+PC9mb250PjwvZm9udD48 L3A+DQo8cCBjbGFzcz0iMmVhMWNiYzAtOTdhYi00YWYzLWFjMDEtODRiMDk0OTY4NTlkIj4tLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS08L3A+DQo8L2JvZHk+DQo8L2h0bWw+DQo= --_000_734752AF0E88364D983373FE5CEFED57594B72F8bgb01xud1001_-- From nobody Tue Feb 5 05:27:22 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75921130F24 for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2019 05:27:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xz36yjrzY1tu for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2019 05:27:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B75EA124BF6 for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2019 05:27:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from LHREML710-CAH.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.107]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 159B9BC2E5E149977369 for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2019 13:27:17 +0000 (GMT) Received: from lhreml704-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.53) by LHREML710-CAH.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.33) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.408.0; Tue, 5 Feb 2019 13:27:16 +0000 Received: from lhreml704-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.53) by lhreml704-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.53) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1591.10; Tue, 5 Feb 2019 13:27:16 +0000 Received: from DGGEMM423-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.1.198.40) by lhreml704-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.53) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_0, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA_P256) id 15.1.1591.10 via Frontend Transport; Tue, 5 Feb 2019 13:27:16 +0000 Received: from DGGEMM526-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.8.222]) by dggemm423-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.1.198.40]) with mapi id 14.03.0415.000; Tue, 5 Feb 2019 21:27:11 +0800 From: "Roni Even (A)" To: "payload@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: call for adoping RTP Payload for TTML Timed Text as payload WG milestone Thread-Index: AdS9Veq/P5woJS0lTDWPAQehVOfXFA== Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2019 13:27:11 +0000 Message-ID: <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD18CB2856@dggemm526-mbx.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.200.202.80] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD18CB2856dggemm526mbxchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: [payload] call for adoping RTP Payload for TTML Timed Text as payload WG milestone X-BeenThere: payload@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Payloads working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2019 13:27:21 -0000 --_000_6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD18CB2856dggemm526mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, This is a call to adopt RTP Payload for TTML Timed Text as a Payload WG mi= lestone and have https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-sandford-payload-rtp-ttml-= 02.txt as the initial document. This is an RTP payload and as such is in the charter of the WG. Please let the chairs know if you are OK with this work. Please respond by February 22nd Roni Even Payload WG co-chair --_000_6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD18CB2856dggemm526mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,

This is a call to adopt  RTP Payload for TTML Timed Text as a Payload WG milestone and have https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-sandford-payload-rtp-ttml-02.txt as t= he initial document.

 =

This is an RTP payload a= nd as such is in the charter of the WG.

 =

Please let the chairs kn= ow if you are OK with this work.

 =

Please respond by Februa= ry 22nd

 =

Roni Even Payload WG co-= chair

 

--_000_6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD18CB2856dggemm526mbxchi_-- From nobody Tue Feb 5 05:36:59 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DAFD1294D0 for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2019 05:36:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id li7wQ5D6bJE9 for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2019 05:36:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 68DB1130F24 for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2019 05:36:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from LHREML710-CAH.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.107]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 98191E5169406415F3EE for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2019 13:36:48 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DGGEMM406-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.20.214) by LHREML710-CAH.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.33) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.408.0; Tue, 5 Feb 2019 13:36:47 +0000 Received: from DGGEMM526-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.8.222]) by DGGEMM406-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.3.20.214]) with mapi id 14.03.0415.000; Tue, 5 Feb 2019 21:36:04 +0800 From: "Roni Even (A)" To: =?utf-8?B?U8OpYmFzdGllbiBMdWdhbg==?= , "payload@ietf.org" CC: =?utf-8?B?QWxleGFuZHJlIFdpbGzDqG1l?= , =?utf-8?B?R2HDq2wgUm91dnJveQ==?= Thread-Topic: [payload] Review request for JPEG XS RTP payload format I-D Thread-Index: AQHUfEOBfDHNqm38q0WkR8LpAyDn4qXRtnQA Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2019 13:36:04 +0000 Message-ID: <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD18CB286E@dggemm526-mbx.china.huawei.com> References: <00f6ebfa-0c81-8ba4-0094-4c97a2ae4e2b@dynmail.crt1.net> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.200.202.80] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [payload] Review request for JPEG XS RTP payload format I-D X-BeenThere: payload@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Payloads working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2019 13:36:53 -0000 SGksDQpBcyBhbiBpbmRpdmlkdWFsIDogSSByZXZpZXdlZCB0aGUgbmV3IHJldmlzaW9uIGFuZCBp dCBhZGRyZXNzZXMgc29tZSBvZiBteSBwcmV2aW91cyBjb21tZW50cy4NCg0KQXMgYSBXRyBjby1j aGFpcjogIEkgd2lsbCBhc2sgZm9yIGFkb3B0aW5nIHRoaXMgZG9jdW1lbnQgYW5kIGNyZWF0ZSBh IG1pbGVzdG9uZQ0KDQpSb25pIEV2ZW4gKEEpDQpQYXlsb2FkIFdHIGNvLWNoYWlyDQoNCg0KDQot LS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLQ0KRnJvbTogcGF5bG9hZCBbbWFpbHRvOnBheWxvYWQt Ym91bmNlc0BpZXRmLm9yZ10gT24gQmVoYWxmIE9mIFPDqWJhc3RpZW4gTHVnYW4NClNlbnQ6IFdl ZG5lc2RheSwgTm92ZW1iZXIgMTQsIDIwMTggNzo1NyBQTQ0KVG86IHBheWxvYWRAaWV0Zi5vcmcN CkNjOiBBbGV4YW5kcmUgV2lsbMOobWU7IEdhw6tsIFJvdXZyb3kNClN1YmplY3Q6IFJlOiBbcGF5 bG9hZF0gUmV2aWV3IHJlcXVlc3QgZm9yIEpQRUcgWFMgUlRQIHBheWxvYWQgZm9ybWF0IEktRA0K DQpEZWFyIElFVEYgUGF5bG9hZCBXRywNCg0KDQpXZSByZWNlbnRseSB1cGxvYWRlZCBhIG5ldyB2 ZXJzaW9uIG9mIG91ciBSVFAgcGF5bG9hZCBmb3JtYXQgSS1EIGZvciB0cmFuc3BvcnRpbmcgSlBF RyBYUyBlbmNvZGVkIHZpZGVvOg0KDQogICBSVFAgUGF5bG9hZCBGb3JtYXQgZm9yIElTTy9JRUMg MjExMjIgKEpQRUcgWFMpDQogICBodHRwczovL2RhdGF0cmFja2VyLmlldGYub3JnL2RvYy9kcmFm dC1sdWdhbi1wYXlsb2FkLXJ0cC1qcGVneHMvDQoNCkF1dGhvcnM6DQogICBTLiBMdWdhbiwgRy4g Um91dnJveSwgQS4gRGVzY2FtcGUgKGludG9QSVgpDQogICBULiBSaWNodGVyIChGcmF1bmhvZmVy IElJUykNCiAgIEEuIFdpbGxlbWUgKFVuaXZlcnNpdMOpIGNhdGhvbGlxdWUgZGUgTG91dmFpbikN Cg0KRmlsZW5hbWU6IGRyYWZ0LWx1Z2FuLXBheWxvYWQtcnRwLWpwZWd4cy0wMS50eHQNCg0KQWJz dHJhY3Q6DQogICAgVGhpcyBkb2N1bWVudCBzcGVjaWZpZXMgYSBSZWFsLVRpbWUgVHJhbnNwb3J0 IFByb3RvY29sIChSVFApIHBheWxvYWQNCiAgICBmb3JtYXQgdG8gYmUgdXNlZCBmb3IgdHJhbnNw b3J0aW5nIEpQRUcgWFMgKElTTy9JRUMgMjExMjIpIGVuY29kZWQNCiAgICB2aWRlby4gIEpQRUcg WFMgaXMgYSBsb3ctbGF0ZW5jeSwgbGlnaHR3ZWlnaHQgaW1hZ2UgY29kaW5nIHN5c3RlbQ0KICAg IGFsbG93aW5nIGZvciBhbiBpbmNyZWFzZWQgcmVzb2x1dGlvbiBhbmQgZnJhbWUgcmF0ZSwgd2hp bGUgb2ZmZXJpbmcNCiAgICB2aXN1YWxseSBsb3NzbGVzcyBxdWFsaXR5IHdpdGggcmVkdWNlZCBh bW91bnQgb2YgcmVzb3VyY2VzIHN1Y2ggYXMNCiAgICBwb3dlciBhbmQgYmFuZHdpZHRoLg0KDQoN ClRoaXMgbmV3IHZlcnNpb24gaW5jbHVkZXMgY29ycmVjdGlvbnMgc3VnZ2VzdGVkIG9uIHRoaXMg bGlzdCBhbmQgZGlyZWN0bHkgYnkgZS1tYWlsLg0KDQpNaWdodCB3ZSBraW5kbHkgYXNrIHlvdSB0 byByZXZpZXcgdGhpcyBJLUQgYW5kIHNlbmQgeW91ciBjb21tZW50cyByZWdhcmRpbmcgaXRzIHBv c3NpYmxlIGZvcm1hbCBhZG9wdGlvbiBieSB0aGUgV0c/DQoNCg0KTWFueSB0aGFua3MgaW4gYWR2 YW5jZSwNCg0KQmVzdCByZWdhcmRzLA0KDQpTw6liYXN0aWVuIEx1Z2FuDQoNCl9fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQpwYXlsb2FkIG1haWxpbmcgbGlz dA0KcGF5bG9hZEBpZXRmLm9yZw0KaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5m by9wYXlsb2FkDQo= From nobody Tue Feb 5 05:44:13 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 023F01310B9 for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2019 05:44:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 532k-lxaJiGz for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2019 05:44:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0CDB2130F24 for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2019 05:44:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.106]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id EC1756F9F32A642C0B55 for ; Tue, 5 Feb 2019 13:44:07 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DGGEMM406-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.20.214) by lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.45) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.408.0; Tue, 5 Feb 2019 13:44:07 +0000 Received: from DGGEMM526-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.8.222]) by DGGEMM406-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.3.20.214]) with mapi id 14.03.0415.000; Tue, 5 Feb 2019 21:43:33 +0800 From: "Roni Even (A)" To: "payload@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: call for adoping RTP Payload Format for ISO/IEC 21122 (JPEG XS) as payload WG milestone Thread-Index: AdS9V+9SVQ2JQjCYQDG3Yx8RvovtYg== Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2019 13:43:33 +0000 Message-ID: <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD18CB2897@dggemm526-mbx.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.200.202.80] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD18CB2897dggemm526mbxchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: [payload] call for adoping RTP Payload Format for ISO/IEC 21122 (JPEG XS) as payload WG milestone X-BeenThere: payload@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Payloads working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2019 13:44:12 -0000 --_000_6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD18CB2897dggemm526mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, This is a call to adopt RTP Payload Format for ISO/IEC 21122 (JPEG XS) as = a Payload WG milestone and have https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-lugan-pay= load-rtp-jpegxs-01 as the initial document. This is an RTP payload and as such is in the charter of the WG. Please let the chairs know if you are OK with this work. Please respond by February 22nd Roni Even Payload WG co-chair --_000_6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD18CB2897dggemm526mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,

This is a call to adopt  RTP Payload Forma= t for ISO/IEC 21122 (JPEG XS) as a Payload WG milestone and have https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-lugan-payload-rtp-jpegxs-01  as the initial document.

 =

This is an RTP payload a= nd as such is in the charter of the WG.

 =

Please let the chairs kn= ow if you are OK with this work.

 =

Please respond by Februa= ry 22nd

 =

Roni Even Payload WG co-= chair

 =

 =

 =

 

 

--_000_6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD18CB2897dggemm526mbxchi_-- From nobody Sun Feb 10 22:20:31 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: payload@ietf.org Delivered-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7047B130DE9 for ; Sun, 10 Feb 2019 22:20:29 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.91.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <154986602945.14695.17143799110937431691.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2019 22:20:29 -0800 From: IETF Secretariat Archived-At: Subject: [payload] Milestones changed for payload WG X-BeenThere: payload@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Payloads working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2019 06:20:29 -0000 Changed milestone "Submit RTP Payload Format for Non-Interleaved and Interleaved Parity FEC", resolved as "Done". URL: https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/payload/about/ From nobody Sun Feb 10 22:23:52 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: payload@ietf.org Delivered-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73577130E82 for ; Sun, 10 Feb 2019 22:23:50 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.91.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <154986623046.14683.12090354753348048149.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2019 22:23:50 -0800 From: IETF Secretariat Archived-At: Subject: [payload] Milestones changed for payload WG X-BeenThere: payload@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Payloads working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2019 06:23:51 -0000 Changed milestone "Submit RTP Payload Format for VP9 Video for Proposed Standard", set due date to November 2019 from July 2018. URL: https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/payload/about/ From nobody Sun Feb 10 22:39:20 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 330A512894E for ; Sun, 10 Feb 2019 22:39:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MNADJQ4wrBGH for ; Sun, 10 Feb 2019 22:39:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5FE8712008A for ; Sun, 10 Feb 2019 22:39:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from LHREML712-CAH.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.106]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id AB11ABF4F7DAE68B43C0 for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2019 06:39:13 +0000 (GMT) Received: from lhreml707-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.56) by LHREML712-CAH.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.35) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.408.0; Mon, 11 Feb 2019 06:39:13 +0000 Received: from lhreml707-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.56) by lhreml707-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.56) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1591.10; Mon, 11 Feb 2019 06:39:13 +0000 Received: from DGGEMM404-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.20.212) by lhreml707-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.56) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_0, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA_P256) id 15.1.1591.10 via Frontend Transport; Mon, 11 Feb 2019 06:39:12 +0000 Received: from DGGEMM526-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.8.222]) by DGGEMM404-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.3.20.212]) with mapi id 14.03.0415.000; Mon, 11 Feb 2019 14:38:46 +0800 From: "Roni Even (A)" To: "Victor Demjanenko, Ph.D." , "'Ali C. Begen'" , "payload@ietf.org" CC: "'Dave Satterlee (Vocal)'" , 'John Punaro' Thread-Topic: [payload] WGLC for draft-ietf-payload-tsvcis-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHUYGTb/Ck/lD1KcUi9WL2LGJ4ieaUYQaVwgAomUfCAuH/0oA== Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2019 06:38:46 +0000 Message-ID: <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD18CB38C8@dggemm526-mbx.china.huawei.com> References: <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD8E47AD@dggemm526-mbx.china.huawei.com> <148c01d46595$4f6f6560$ee4e3020$@demjanenko@vocal.com> In-Reply-To: <148c01d46595$4f6f6560$ee4e3020$@demjanenko@vocal.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.200.202.80] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD18CB38C8dggemm526mbxchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [payload] WGLC for draft-ietf-payload-tsvcis-00.txt X-BeenThere: payload@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Payloads working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2019 06:39:19 -0000 --_000_6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD18CB38C8dggemm526mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGksDQpNeSBjb21tZW50cyB3ZXJlIGFkZHJlc3NlZCBpbiB0aGUgLTAxIHZlcnNpb24NClJvbmkg RXZlbiBhcyBpbmRpdmlkdWFsDQoNCkZyb206IFZpY3RvciBEZW1qYW5lbmtvLCBQaC5ELiBbbWFp bHRvOnZpY3Rvci5kZW1qYW5lbmtvQHZvY2FsLmNvbV0NClNlbnQ6IFdlZG5lc2RheSwgT2N0b2Jl ciAxNywgMjAxOCAxMjoxNSBBTQ0KVG86IFJvbmkgRXZlbiAoQSk7ICdBbGkgQy4gQmVnZW4nOyBw YXlsb2FkQGlldGYub3JnDQpDYzogJ1ZpY3RvciBEZW1qYW5lbmtvLCBQaC5ELic7ICdEYXZlIFNh dHRlcmxlZSAoVm9jYWwpJzsgJ0pvaG4gUHVuYXJvJw0KU3ViamVjdDogUkU6IFtwYXlsb2FkXSBX R0xDIGZvciBkcmFmdC1pZXRmLXBheWxvYWQtdHN2Y2lzLTAwLnR4dA0KDQpIaSBSb25pLA0KDQpU aGFua3MgZm9yIHlvdXIgY29tbWVudHMuICBXZSBoYXZlIGluY29ycG9yYXRlZCBtb3N0IG9mIHRo ZW0gaW50byB0aGUgbGF0ZXN0IGRyYWZ0LiAgQXMgYmVzdCBJIGtub3csIHRoZSBOUkwgcGFwZXIg 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PC9kaXY+DQo8ZGl2Pg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb05vcm1hbCI+VGhhbmtzLjxvOnA+PC9vOnA+PC9w Pg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8ZGl2Pg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9Ik1zb05vcm1hbCI+LWFjYmVnZW48bzpwPjwvbzpw PjwvcD4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8L2Rpdj4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPC9ib2R5Pg0KPC9odG1sPg0K --_000_6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD18CB38C8dggemm526mbxchi_-- From nobody Mon Feb 11 07:16:23 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12DE51271FF for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2019 07:16:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zHPwmytt-w4w for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2019 07:16:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailout1.telhc.bbc.co.uk (mailout1.telhc.bbc.co.uk [132.185.161.180]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9992B126F72 for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2019 07:16:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from BGB01XI1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk (bgb01xi1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk [10.161.14.14]) by mailout1.telhc.bbc.co.uk (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id x1BFGFjU019110 for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2019 15:16:15 GMT Received: from BGB01XUD1012.national.core.bbc.co.uk ([10.161.14.10]) by BGB01XI1010.national.core.bbc.co.uk ([10.161.14.14]) with mapi id 14.03.0408.000; Mon, 11 Feb 2019 15:16:15 +0000 From: Nigel Megitt To: "payload@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [payload] new draft - RTP Payload for TTML Timed Text Thread-Index: AQHUwhy5JnvrFU1bhEuuuCEhNcSFAA== Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2019 15:16:14 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.7.7.170905 x-originating-ip: [10.10.48.249] x-exclaimer-md-config: 1cd3ac1c-62e5-43f2-8404-6b688271c769 x-tm-as-product-ver: SMEX-12.5.0.1300-8.2.1013-24054.007 x-tm-as-result: No-16.333700-8.000000-10 x-tmase-matchedrid: ImpK+JglVlM7iuZ/mdYYtgeLCIX046iBHX7XD4ho1lMdVxdNlp+7NQr1 4NvBupAm9Zh3YQ/RlKeKC6Im4I1RFzK1/qdbjc7QKzMXWgba/W+tR4swQGFXPh72DTGItWXMklP OPDP4bOjaVScbiljcbLqQyAveNtg6h+w9Wz/xXDo6iP0NczjR0vMxs+ucp3ZMgXsgusiGR169sM gZRMLrz1n4OKSCBYfH10Srp1vLqSf4qCLIu0mtILv81BNUjUj5SiQiJniiQomsgKv7m4IPMGDjP 7foBBmpzsxad8fKlobzh2yKdnl7WM9ZbgogvG8EGNAPebYwJ/vEQpVIrUoUByimJNrMe3aRuhXK gXgQmPF4kM2l8gBAjcFWmsryu9ZfBcCEAZkHsGe1YUw9VHYKvBjtAEYMnZ1aXXJvLEEwQOLWLXZ E7ieb3nHPBvSspzfjypeMiaCPnxuz5LIh2+IOfG3D6f6IpbLIHbNI1Tywc/bgUPei03FNQ3cnb9 /qx3phiJx4642cvJYv2E0OPZsHBw+Fsbq1DJsvzBJjCfi4lf3oIXJVEToaYFwdeCwlHro2/Yxce trtFcF48YB5KfXbgnF+T3jMctr+1kqyrcMalqX4JyR+b5tvoFilystNeKgHIN3klC7wS95sMRoT 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Mon, 11 Feb 2019 08:39:28 -0800 From: Giridhar Mandyam To: Bernard Aboba CC: "ietf@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme@ietf.org" , "payload@ietf.org" , "tsv-art@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: TSVART telechat review of draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-16 Thread-Index: AQHUvDnjYUMbNpsulkSvx/ThS08jjaXPhp8A//+UiYCAAIl5AIAG+DGggAQ6eSA= Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2019 16:39:28 +0000 Message-ID: <27829aac2a0e4ed7a838dee8e41427c0@NASANEXM01C.na.qualcomm.com> References: <60f081439d6945298288ba5841f48a34@NASANEXM01C.na.qualcomm.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.80.80.8] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_27829aac2a0e4ed7a838dee8e41427c0NASANEXM01Cnaqualcommco_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [payload] TSVART telechat review of draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-16 X-BeenThere: payload@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Payloads working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2019 16:39:33 -0000 --_000_27829aac2a0e4ed7a838dee8e41427c0NASANEXM01Cnaqualcommco_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGVsbG8sDQpGb3IgdGhlc2UgdHdvIHNwZWNpZmljIGNvbW1lbnRzLCB0aGUgZWRpdG9yc+KAmSBy ZXNwb25zZSBpcyBlbmNsb3NlZCBiZWxvdy4gIFRoZXJlIHdpbGwgYmUgYSBzZXBhcmF0ZSBlbWFp bCByZWdhcmRpbmcgdGhlIG90aGVyIFRTVkFSVCBxdWVzdGlvbnMgb24gRkxFWCBGRUMuDQotR2ly aSBNYW5keWFtDQo+MS4gVGhlIHNwZWMgc2F5cyB0aGF0IGFic2VuY2Ugb2YgYSBUb1AgdmFsdWUg bWVhbnMgdGhhdCBhbnkgVG9QIGlzIGFsbG93YWJsZSwgYnV0IGl0IGRvZXNuJ3QgZXhwbGljaXRs eSBzYXkgdGhhdCBpbXBsZW1lbnRhdGlvbnMgbmVlZHMgdG8gc3VwcG9ydCBhbGwgVG9QIHR5cGVz LiAgU28gSSB3YXMgdW5jbGVhciB3aGV0aGVyIGl0IG1pZ2h0IGJlIG5lY2Vzc2FyeSB0byBPZmZl ciBtdWx0aXBsZSBwb3RlbnRpYWwgZmxleGlibGUgRkVDIGNvbmZpZ3VyYXRpb25zIHNvIGFzIHRv 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--_000_27829aac2a0e4ed7a838dee8e41427c0NASANEXM01Cnaqualcommco_-- From nobody Mon Feb 11 11:02:52 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE5D1131132; Mon, 11 Feb 2019 11:02:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=qti.qualcomm.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YqIM4kuu7WsO; Mon, 11 Feb 2019 11:02:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from alexa-out-sd-02.qualcomm.com (alexa-out-sd-02.qualcomm.com [199.106.114.39]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4853D12867A; Mon, 11 Feb 2019 11:02:38 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=qti.qualcomm.com; i=@qti.qualcomm.com; q=dns/txt; s=qcdkim; t=1549911758; x=1581447758; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:mime-version; bh=+EiOeMZydEQ8/7OdRdv6NYsxJdGBokWo9QR1TQtISFk=; b=wRMxpu7u6JEqakoFciB/cPRn9gc8Ru3m2LqMmww3hk8Rk1cDAaEf54rJ T25pHVF3G80/pgBqh9JgYg3yZoaIl8a+x/NCWMfap2YXCpWRrJi2iwal9 v5tcqqcOLyAQzAORXdmuAP7nYHKdd3FggH25CpBYFuoiI/4CyCnqkgK85 A=; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos; i="5.58,359,1544515200"; d="scan'208,217"; a="30200544" Received: from unknown (HELO ironmsg-SD-alpha.qualcomm.com) ([10.53.140.30]) by alexa-out-sd-02.qualcomm.com with ESMTP; 11 Feb 2019 11:02:37 -0800 X-IronPort-AV: E=McAfee;i="5900,7806,9164"; a="340019200" Received: from nasanexm01f.na.qualcomm.com ([10.85.0.32]) by ironmsg-SD-alpha.qualcomm.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 11 Feb 2019 11:02:37 -0800 Received: from NASANEXM01C.na.qualcomm.com (10.85.0.83) by NASANEXM01F.na.qualcomm.com (10.85.0.32) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1395.4; Mon, 11 Feb 2019 11:02:37 -0800 Received: from NASANEXM01C.na.qualcomm.com ([10.85.0.83]) by NASANEXM01C.na.qualcomm.com ([10.85.0.83]) with mapi id 15.00.1395.000; Mon, 11 Feb 2019 11:02:37 -0800 From: Giridhar Mandyam To: Bernard Aboba CC: "payload@ietf.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: TSVART telechat review of draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-16 Thread-Index: AdTCNO0natcuwLFuRP+H7aoARQUTEg== Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2019 19:02:36 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.80.80.8] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_ad4d8e52739045149b72c882732801f5NASANEXM01Cnaqualcommco_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [payload] TSVART telechat review of draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-16 X-BeenThere: payload@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Payloads working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2019 19:02:41 -0000 --_000_ad4d8e52739045149b72c882732801f5NASANEXM01Cnaqualcommco_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 DQoNClRoYW5rIHlvdSBmb3IgdGhlIGNhcmVmdWwgcmV2aWV3LiAgRW5jbG9zZWQgYXJlIHByb3Bv c2VkIHJlc3BvbnNlcy4NCg0KPiBGb3IgZXhhbXBsZSwgdGhlIHNlbmRlciBjb3VsZCB1c2UgZmxl eGlibGUgbW9kZSB0byBvbmx5IHByb3RlY3QgYmFzZSBsYXllciBwYWNrZXRzIGJ5IHVzaW5nIGEg ZmxleGlibGUgbWFzayB0byBzZWxlY3Qgb25seSBwYWNrZXRzIHNlbnQgd2l0aCBUSUQgPSAwIGFu 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URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NA1c_QUkFeIn; Mon, 11 Feb 2019 13:39:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vs1-xe2e.google.com (mail-vs1-xe2e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::e2e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4925F126C01; Mon, 11 Feb 2019 13:39:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-vs1-xe2e.google.com with SMTP id z18so281312vso.7; Mon, 11 Feb 2019 13:39:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=KJeJNqPSYAhL6P4LQ7BrKrLiG4SVY5bxHcGWTsfyXfk=; 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AHQUAuaZAgGDuGAzX8b5XNW7GghRcUw5J93YC4EXq1c5srMcZoItboCE J/3dlMk8ZT/o5vSMo6z6/7V6ijhfMeWEtbaC9uA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AHgI3IYkHva5qhWAseymXeNOq5mKog0Gy35N1eGoZLGAtHa2Q9F/K6ChqTDxkS05Ux2fM70Q+Usq+IjcqgRD9X668jo= X-Received: by 2002:a67:fd8b:: with SMTP id k11mr157351vsq.226.1549921167533; Mon, 11 Feb 2019 13:39:27 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Bernard Aboba Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2019 13:39:16 -0800 Message-ID: To: Giridhar Mandyam Cc: "payload@ietf.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009eed630581a524e6" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [payload] TSVART telechat review of draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-16 X-BeenThere: payload@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Payloads working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2019 21:39:34 -0000 --0000000000009eed630581a524e6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 1. " Suggested additional section (new 1.1.5):" [BA] Thank you. This looks good. "It is not possible to configure a ToP value that allows the sender to send both FEC and rtx, and all valid values for ToP are listed in the spec. This is what is meant by the current text under ToP for each type registration: =E2=80=9CThere can only be one value listed for ToP.=E2=80= =9D An offer that attempts to list multiple ToP values must be rejected. We can add the clarifying sentence: =E2=80=9CAn offer that lists more than one ToP value = MUST be rejected.=E2=80=9D [BA] The "MUST be rejected" clarification seems helpful. If ToP is not contained in the Offer (as shown in the Example in Section 7.1.1), Section 5.1.4 says: The absence of the ToP field means that all protection types are allowed. So by not including a ToP value in the Offer, it would be possible to use flexfec for both FEC and retransmission, correct? BTW, if no ToP value is provided in the Offer, does the ToP value in the Answer determine what is used? And if there is no ToP value in the Answer, then anything is ok? 2. RTX and flexfec retransmission. "If by RTX you mean the use of RTP RTX for retransmission of repair packets, then this is not prohibited by the spec but is not a configuration that the editors anticipate will be widely-used." [BA] Agree that it makes little sense to negotiate both conventional RTX and flexfec retransmission, but I wanted to understand how the negotiation would work in a scenario where the Offerer did not know whether the Answerer supported flexfec and therefore offered both RTX and flexfec (with no ToP value). Can the Answerer assume that not including ToP means that the Offerer supports flexfec retransmission and well as forward error correction? Assuming that the Answerer would prefer to use flexfec retransmission instead of conventional RTX and that it didn't want FEC, would the Answerer then respond with ToP indicating a desire for flexfec retransmission (and no RTX, so that conventional retransmission is turned off)? 3. Flexible mode. "If L and D are not specified in the SDP, then the sender will utilize a flexible mask (assuming rtx is not selected)." [BA] If neither Offer nor Answer contain ToP for retransmission, does that count as "rtx is not selected"? Or is it necessary to explicitly select ToP for forward error correction so as to rule out retransmission? "Implementations are not required to support all F/R combinations as there may be implementations limitations depending on the repair window offered (e.g. insufficient buffer space). The answerer can indicate lack of support through rejection using the methodology described in https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3264#section-6." [BA] If L and D are not specified in the SDP offer, is that considered an indication that the Offerer can both send and receive flexible mask? Is the presence of L and D an indication that it does not support flexible mask? On Mon, Feb 11, 2019 at 11:02 AM Giridhar Mandyam wrote: > > > > > Thank you for the careful review. Enclosed are proposed responses. > > > > > For example, the sender could use flexible mode to only protect base > layer packets by using a flexible mask to select only packets sent with T= ID > =3D 0 and SID =3D 0. Since with flexible mode the mask is not negotiated= and > thus can be varied on the fly, it would appear to me that differential > protection can be provided even in situations where the number of layers > encoded (and even the temporal/spatial encoding mode) vary on the fly. > > > > > If this interpretation is correct, I would suggest adding a section > after 1.1.4 covering the flexible mask mode and a differential protection > use case for it. It also would appear to me that flexible mode could be > used to implement dynamic FEC, but I'll leave it to the authors to decide > whether to mention that use case. > > > > Suggested additional section (new 1.1.5): > > > > 1.1.5 FEC Protection with Flexible Mask > > > > It is possible to define FEC protection for selected packets in the sourc= e > stream. This would enable differential protection, i.e. application of F= EC > selectively to packets that require a higher level of reliability then th= e > other packets in the source stream. The sender will be required to send = a > bitmap indicating the packets to be protected, i.e. a =E2=80=9Cmask=E2=80= =9D, to the > receiver. Since the mask can be modified during an RTP session (=E2=80= =9Cflexible > mask=E2=80=9D), this kind of FEC protection can also be used to implement= FEC > dynamically (e.g. for adaptation to different types of traffic during the > RTP session). > > > > >With respect to SDP parameters (L, D, ToP) defined in Section 5.1.1, I > was unclear on several points: > > >1. Is it possible to configure a ToP value to indicate that the sender > desires to utilize both FEC and retransmission? Or must the sender choos= e > to utilize this payload for one or the other but not both? > > > > It is not possible to configure a ToP value that allows the sender to sen= d both FEC and rtx, and all valid values for ToP are listed in the spec. T= his is what is meant by the current text under ToP for each type registrati= on: =E2=80=9CThere can only be one value listed for ToP.=E2=80=9D An off= er that attempts to list multiple ToP values must be rejected. We can add t= he clarifying sentence: =E2=80=9CAn offer that lists more than one ToP val= ue MUST be rejected.=E2=80=9D > > > > >2. What happens if both RTX and flexible FEC with retransmission are > Offered in SDP? Could this result in the sender being allowed to send bo= th > types of retransmission (though presumably only one at a time)? Are the > type(s) of retransmission used determined by which retransmission schemes > are provided in the Answer? > > > > We assume by RTX you mean the RTP RTX option, but specifically for source= packets. It is possible to offer RTP RTX and FLEX FEC in an offer. An ex= ample of when such an offer is appropriate is if the FLEX FEC RTX fails to = recover the packet, and RTP RTX is required to recover the packet for a giv= en application that requires a corresponding level of reliability. If by R= TX you mean the use of RTP RTX for retransmission of repair packets, then t= his is not prohibited by the spec but is not a configuration that the edito= rs anticipate will be widely-used. > > > > >3. If L and D are not specified, does this imply that the sender will > operate in flexible mode? Are implementations of the specification > required to support all of the modes except for the F=3D1, R=3D1 mode tha= t is > forbidden? If not, how does an Answerer indicate that it doesn't support > the mode that is Offered? > > > > If L and D are not specified in the SDP, then the sender will utilize a f= lexible mask (assuming rtx is not selected). Implementations are not requi= red to support all F/R combinations as there may be implementations limitat= ions depending on the repair window offered (e.g. insufficient buffer space= ). The answerer can indicate lack of support through rejection using the m= ethodology described in https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3264#section-6. > > > > >4. Does the negotiation of L, D and ToP in SDP imply that the sender > cannot switch to use of another configuration without renegotiation? Sin= ce > the flexible FEC format is self-describing, it would appear to me that > switching should be possible as long as the implementation requirements a= re > clear. For example, do all implementations needs to support all mask > sizes? > > > > Switching without re-negotiation may not be possible unless the sender is= aware of the capabilities of the receiver e.g. through out-of-band informa= tion. If the sender does not have full information on receiver capabilitie= s, then re-negotiation may be necessary as per the procedures of https://t= ools.ietf.org/html/rfc3264#section-8. > > > > *From:* Bernard Aboba > *Sent:* Sunday, February 3, 2019 7:30 PM > *To:* tsv-art@ietf.org > *Cc:* payload@ietf.org; IETF discussion list ; > draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme@ietf.org > *Subject:* TSVART telechat review of > draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-16 > > > > Reviewer: Bernard Aboba > > Review result: Needs clarifications > > > > This document has been reviewed as part of the transport area review team= 's > ongoing effort to review key IETF documents. These comments were written > primarily for the transport area directors, but are copied to the > document's > authors and WG to allow them to address any issues raised and also to the > IETF discussion list for information. > > When done at the time of IETF Last Call, the authors should consider this > review as part of the last-call comments they receive. Please always CC > tsv-art@ietf.org if you reply to or forward this review. > > Document: draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-16 > > > > My reading of the document raised questions relating to implementation > requirements as well as the configuration and use of the Flexible Mask mo= de > (R=3D0, F=3D0). Presumably, this mode can be used to choose arbitrary pa= ckets > to protect. There is not much discussion of flexible mode early in the > document, and no use cases are presented relating to this mode. However, > it would appear to me that flexible mode can be used to implement scenari= os > such as differential protection for Scalable Video Coding. > > > > For example, the sender could use flexible mode to only protect base laye= r > packets by using a flexible mask to select only packets sent with TID =3D= 0 > and SID =3D 0. Since with flexible mode the mask is not negotiated and t= hus > can be varied on the fly, it would appear to me that differential > protection can be provided even in situations where the number of layers > encoded (and even the temporal/spatial encoding mode) vary on the fly. > > > > If this interpretation is correct, I would suggest adding a section after > 1.1.4 covering the flexible mask mode and a differential protection use > case for it. > > It also would appear to me that flexible mode could be used to implement > dynamic FEC, but I'll leave it to the authors to decide whether to mentio= n > that use case. > > > > With respect to SDP parameters (L, D, ToP) defined in Section 5.1.1, I wa= s > unclear on several points: > > > > 1. Is it possible to configure a ToP value to indicate that the sender > desires to utilize both FEC and retransmission? Or must the sender choos= e > to utilize this payload for one or the other but not both? > > > > 2. What happens if both RTX and flexible FEC with retransmission are > Offered in SDP? Could this result in the sender being allowed to send bo= th > types of retransmission (though presumably only one at a time)? Are the > type(s) of retransmission used determined by which retransmission schemes > are provided in the Answer? > > > > 3. If L and D are not specified, does this imply that the sender will > operate in flexible mode? Are implementations of the specification > required to support all of the modes except for the F=3D1, R=3D1 mode tha= t is > forbidden? If not, how does an Answerer indicate that it doesn't support > the mode that is Offered? > > > > 4. Does the negotiation of L, D and ToP in SDP imply that the sender > cannot switch to use of another configuration without renegotiation? Sin= ce > the flexible FEC format is self-describing, it would appear to me that > switching should be possible as long as the implementation requirements a= re > clear. For example, do all implementations needs to support all mask > sizes? > > > > > > --0000000000009eed630581a524e6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
1. " Suggested additional section (new 1.1.5):"

[BA] Tha= nk you.=C2=A0 This looks good.

"It = is not possible to configure a ToP value that allows the sender to send bot= h FEC and rtx, and all valid values for ToP are listed in the spec.=C2=A0 T= his is what is meant by the current text under ToP for each type registrati= on:=C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=9CThere can only = be one value listed for ToP.=E2=80=9D=C2=A0 An offer that attempts to list multiple ToP values must be rejected. We= can add the clarifying sentence:=C2=A0 =E2=80=9CAn offer that lists more t= han one ToP value MUST be rejected.=E2=80=9D

[BA] The "MUST be rejected" clarification seems helpful.=C2=A0 = If ToP is not contained in the Offer (as shown in the Example in Section 7.= 1.1), Section 5.1.4 says:=C2=A0
      The absence of the ToP field means that all protec=
tion types are
      allowed.
So by not includ=
ing a ToP value in the Offer, it would be possible to use flexfec for both =
FEC and retransmission, correct? 

BTW, if no ToP value is provided in the Offer, does the ToP value in t=
he Answer determine what is used?  And if there is no ToP value in the Answ=
er, then anything is ok?

2. RTX and flexfec = retransmission.=C2=A0

"If by RTX you = mean the use of RTP RTX for retransmission of repair packets, then this is = not prohibited by the spec but is not a configuration that the editors anti= cipate will be widely-used."

[BA] Agre= e that it makes little sense to negotiate both conventional RTX and flexfec= retransmission, but I wanted to understand how the negotiation would work = in a scenario where the Offerer did not know whether the Answerer supported= flexfec and therefore offered both RTX and flexfec (with no ToP value).=C2= =A0=C2=A0

Can the Answerer assume that not includi= ng ToP means that the Offerer supports flexfec retransmission and well as f= orward error correction?=C2=A0

Assuming that the A= nswerer would prefer to use flexfec retransmission instead of conventional = RTX and that it didn't want FEC, would the Answerer then respond with T= oP indicating a desire for flexfec retransmission (and no RTX, so that conv= entional retransmission is turned off)?=C2=A0

3. F= lexible mode.=C2=A0

"If L and D are not specified in the SDP, then the sender will utilize a = flexible mask (assuming rtx is not selected)."

[BA] If neither Offer nor Answer contain ToP for retransmission, d= oes that count as "rtx is not selected"?=C2=A0 Or is it necessary= to explicitly select ToP for forward error correction so as to rule out re= transmission?=C2=A0

"Implementations are not required to support all F/R combinations as ther= e may be implementations limitations depending on the repair window offered= (e.g. insufficient buffer space).=C2=A0 The answerer can indicate lack of = support through rejection using the methodology described in htt= ps://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3264#section-6.<= /span>"

[BA] If L and D are not specified in = the SDP offer, is that considered an indication that the Offerer can both s= end and receive flexible mask?=C2=A0 Is the presence of L and D an indicati= on that it does not support flexible mask?=C2=A0

<= br>

On Mon, Feb 11, 2019 at 11:02 AM Giridhar Mandyam <mandyam@qti.qualcomm.com> wrote:
=

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Thank you for the careful review.=C2=A0 Enclosed are= proposed responses.

=C2=A0

> For example,= the sender could use flexible mode to only protect base layer packets by u= sing a flexible mask to select only packets sent with TID =3D 0 and SID =3D= 0.=C2=A0 Since with flexible mode the mask is not negotiated and thus can be varied on the fly, it would appear to me that differential= protection can be provided even in situations where the number of layers e= ncoded (and even the temporal/spatial encoding mode) vary on the fly.=C2=A0=

=C2=A0

> If this inte= rpretation is correct, I would suggest adding a section after 1.1.4 coverin= g the flexible mask mode and a differential protection use case for it.=C2= =A0 It also would appear to me that flexible mode could be used to implement dynamic FEC, but I'll leave it to the autho= rs to decide whether to mention that use case.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Suggested additional section (new 1.1.5):<= /u>

=C2=A0

1.1.5 FEC Protection with Flexible Mask

=C2=A0

It is possible to define FEC protection for selected= packets in the source stream.=C2=A0 This would enable differential protect= ion, i.e. application of FEC selectively to packets that require a higher l= evel of reliability then the other packets in the source stream.=C2=A0 The sender will be required to send a bitmap i= ndicating the packets to be protected, i.e. a =E2=80=9Cmask=E2=80=9D, to th= e receiver.=C2=A0 Since the mask can be modified during an RTP session (=E2= =80=9Cflexible mask=E2=80=9D), this kind of FEC protection can also be used to implement FEC dynamically (e.g. for adaptation to different types of tr= affic during the RTP session).

=C2=A0

>With respect = to SDP parameters (L, D, ToP) defined in Section 5.1.1, I was unclear on se= veral points:=C2=A0

>1. Is it poss= ible to configure a ToP value to indicate that the sender desires to utiliz= e both FEC and retransmission?=C2=A0 Or must the sender choose to utilize t= his payload for one or the other but not both?=C2=A0

=C2=A0

It is no=
t possible to configure a ToP value that allows the sender to send both FEC=
 and rtx, and all valid values for ToP are listed in the spec.=C2=A0 This i=
s what is meant by the current text under ToP for each type registration:=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=
=9CThere can only be one value listed=
 for ToP.=E2=80=9D=C2=A0 An offer that attempts to list multiple ToP values must =
be rejected. We can add the clarifying sentence:=C2=A0 =E2=80=9CAn offer th=
at lists more than one ToP value MUST be rejected.=E2=80=9D
=C2=A0

>2. What happe= ns if both RTX and flexible FEC with retransmission are Offered in SDP?=C2= =A0 Could this result in the sender being allowed to send both types of ret= ransmission (though presumably only one at a time)?=C2=A0 Are the type(s) of retransmission used determined by which retransmission = schemes are provided in the Answer?=C2=A0

=C2=A0
We assum=
e by RTX you mean the RTP RTX option, but specifically for source packets.=
=C2=A0 It is possible to offer RTP RTX and FLEX FEC in an offer.=C2=A0 An e=
xample of when such an offer is appropriate is if the FLEX FEC RTX fails to=
 recover the packet, and RTP RTX is required to recover the packet for a gi=
ven application that requires a corresponding level of reliability.=C2=A0 I=
f by RTX you mean the use of RTP RTX for retransmission of repair packets, =
then this is not prohibited by the spec but is not a configuration that the=
 editors anticipate will be widely-used.
=
=C2=A0

>3. If L and D= are not specified, does this imply that the sender will operate in flexibl= e mode?=C2=A0 Are implementations of the specification required to support = all of the modes except for the F=3D1, R=3D1 mode that is forbidden?=C2=A0 If not, how does an Answerer indicate that it doesn= 9;t support the mode that is Offered?

=C2=A0
If L and D are not specified in the SDP, then the sender will ut=
ilize a flexible mask (assuming rtx is not selected).=C2=A0 Implementations=
 are not required to support all F/R combinations as there may be implement=
ations limitations depending on the repair window offered (e.g. insufficien=
t buffer space).=C2=A0 The answerer can indicate lack of support through re=
jection using the methodology described in https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc=
3264#section-6.
=C2=A0

>4. Does the n= egotiation of L, D and ToP in SDP imply that the sender cannot switch to us= e of another configuration without renegotiation?=C2=A0 Since the flexible = FEC format is self-describing, it would appear to me that switching should be possible as long as the implementation require= ments are clear.=C2=A0 For example, do all implementations needs to support= all mask sizes?=C2=A0

=C2=A0
Switching without re-negotiation may not be possible unless the =
sender is aware of the capabilities of the receiver e.g. through out-of-ban=
d information.=C2=A0 If the sender does not have full information on receiv=
er capabilities, then re-negotiation may be necessary as per the procedures=
 of =C2=A0https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3264=
#section-8.

=C2=A0

From: Bernard Aboba <bernard.aboba@gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 3, 2019 7:30 PM
To: tsv-art@ie= tf.org
Cc: payload@ie= tf.org; IETF discussion list <ietf@ietf.org>; draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme@ietf.org
Subject: TSVART telechat review of draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-s= cheme-16

=C2=A0

Reviewer:=C2=A0 Bernard Aboba

Review result:=C2=A0 Needs clarifications<= /u>

=C2=A0

This document has= been reviewed as part of the transport area review team's
ongoing effort to review key IETF documents. These comments were written primarily for the transport area directors, but are copied to the document&= #39;s
authors and WG to allow them to address any issues raised and also to the I= ETF discussion list for information.

When done at the time of IETF Last Call, the authors should consider this review as part of the last-call comments they receive. Please always CC
tsv-art@ietf.org= =C2=A0if you reply to or forward this review.

Document: draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-16

=C2=A0<= /u>

My reading of the= document raised questions relating to implementation requirements as well = as the configuration and use of the Flexible Mask mode (R=3D0, F=3D0).=C2= =A0 Presumably, this mode can be used to choose arbitrary packets to protect. There is not much discussion of flexible mode early in= the document, and no use cases are presented relating to this mode.=C2=A0 = However, it would appear to me that flexible mode can be used to implement = scenarios such as differential protection for Scalable Video Coding.=C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0<= /u>

For example, the = sender could use flexible mode to only protect base layer packets by using = a flexible mask to select only packets sent with TID =3D 0 and SID =3D 0.= =C2=A0 Since with flexible mode the mask is not negotiated and thus can be varied on the fly, it would appear to me that differential= protection can be provided even in situations where the number of layers e= ncoded (and even the temporal/spatial encoding mode) vary on the fly.=C2=A0=

=C2=A0<= /u>

If this interpret= ation is correct, I would suggest adding a section after 1.1.4 covering the= flexible mask mode and a differential protection use case for it.=C2=A0=

It also would app= ear to me that flexible mode could be used to implement dynamic FEC, but I&= #39;ll leave it to the authors to decide whether to mention that use case.= =C2=A0

=C2=A0<= /u>

With respect to S= DP parameters (L, D, ToP) defined in Section 5.1.1, I was unclear on severa= l points:=C2=A0

=C2=A0<= /u>

1. Is it possible= to configure a ToP value to indicate that the sender desires to utilize bo= th FEC and retransmission?=C2=A0 Or must the sender choose to utilize this = payload for one or the other but not both?=C2=A0

=C2=A0<= /u>

2. What happens i= f both RTX and flexible FEC with retransmission are Offered in SDP?=C2=A0 C= ould this result in the sender being allowed to send both types of retransm= ission (though presumably only one at a time)?=C2=A0 Are the type(s) of retransmission used determined by which retransmission = schemes are provided in the Answer?=C2=A0

=C2=A0<= /u>

3. If L and D are= not specified, does this imply that the sender will operate in flexible mo= de?=C2=A0 Are implementations of the specification required to support all = of the modes except for the F=3D1, R=3D1 mode that is forbidden?=C2=A0 If not, how does an Answerer indicate that it doesn= 9;t support the mode that is Offered?

=C2=A0<= /u>

4. Does the negot= iation of L, D and ToP in SDP imply that the sender cannot switch to use of= another configuration without renegotiation?=C2=A0 Since the flexible FEC = format is self-describing, it would appear to me that switching should be possible as long as the implementation require= ments are clear.=C2=A0 For example, do all implementations needs to support= all mask sizes?=C2=A0

=C2=A0<= /u>

=C2=A0<= /u>

--0000000000009eed630581a524e6-- From nobody Mon Feb 11 23:53:46 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2838612F1AB for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2019 23:53:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id K5Dyj4IbDwB8 for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2019 23:53:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2F91E124408 for ; Mon, 11 Feb 2019 23:53:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.106]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 279EBD3A8A2BE901FB75 for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2019 07:53:39 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DGGEMM405-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.20.213) by lhreml704-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.45) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.408.0; Tue, 12 Feb 2019 07:53:38 +0000 Received: from DGGEMM526-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.8.222]) by DGGEMM405-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.3.20.213]) with mapi id 14.03.0415.000; Tue, 12 Feb 2019 15:52:55 +0800 From: "Roni Even (A)" To: Nigel Megitt , "payload@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [payload] new draft - RTP Payload for TTML Timed Text Thread-Index: AQHUwhy5JnvrFU1bhEuuuCEhNcSFAKXbw/vw Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2019 07:52:55 +0000 Message-ID: <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD18CB3E04@dggemm526-mbx.china.huawei.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.200.202.80] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD18CB3E04dggemm526mbxchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [payload] new draft - RTP Payload for TTML Timed Text X-BeenThere: payload@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Payloads working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2019 07:53:44 -0000 --_000_6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD18CB3E04dggemm526mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGksDQpUaGFua3MgZm9yIHRoZSBpbmZvcm1hdGlvbi4NClRoZSB3YXkgSSBzZWUgaXQgaXMgdGhh dCB0aGlzIGRvY3VtZW50IG9ubHkgd2FudHMgdG8gc3BlY2lmeSBob3cgdG8gc2VuZCBUVE0gdGlt ZSB0ZXh0IHVzaW5nIFJUUCB3aGljaCBpcyBub3Qgc3BlY2lmaWVkIGJ5IFczQw0KDQpJIHRoaW5r IHRoYXQgdGhlIHRleHQgZXhwbGFpbnMgaXQgYnV0IG1heWJlIHdlIG5lZWQgYmV0dGVyIGNsYXJp 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Reply-To: payload@ietf.org Message-ID: <155000890038.8591.10002380517887497422@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2019 14:01:40 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [payload] I-D Action: draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-17.txt X-BeenThere: payload@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Payloads working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2019 22:01:41 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Audio/Video Transport Payloads WG of the IETF. Title : RTP Payload Format for Flexible Forward Error Correction (FEC) Authors : Mo Zanaty Varun Singh Ali Begen Giridhar Mandyam Filename : draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-17.txt Pages : 50 Date : 2019-02-12 Abstract: This document defines new RTP payload formats for the Forward Error Correction (FEC) packets that are generated by the non-interleaved and interleaved parity codes from source media encapsulated in RTP. These parity codes are systematic codes, where a number of FEC repair packets are generated from a set of source packets from one or more source RTP streams. These FEC repair packets are sent in a redundancy RTP stream separate from the source RTP stream(s) that carries the source packets. RTP source packets that were lost in transmission can be reconstructed using the source and repair packets that were received. The non-interleaved and interleaved parity codes which are defined in this specification offer a good protection against random and bursty packet losses, respectively, at a cost of complexity. The RTP payload formats that are defined in this document address scalability issues experienced with the earlier specifications, and offer several improvements. Due to these changes, the new payload formats are not backward compatible with earlier specifications, but endpoints that do not implement this specification can still work by simply ignoring the FEC repair packets. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-17 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-17 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-17 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Tue Feb 12 14:06:15 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C588130E0A for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2019 14:06:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.301 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.301 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=qti.qualcomm.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ygXtJqQYZaXb for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2019 14:06:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from alexa-out-sd-01.qualcomm.com (alexa-out-sd-01.qualcomm.com [199.106.114.38]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8001B130DE3 for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2019 14:06:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=qti.qualcomm.com; i=@qti.qualcomm.com; q=dns/txt; s=qcdkim; t=1550009166; x=1581545166; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=W/Lf29P0xzTaJt+YXo6cDWgCkJqnTaaEC21/pTyksac=; b=EM05DtOgISpjh3EEEYXkOdg4cQVPKpngKohohKu3xql1+yndw+0kxQXD as1AQPDjA/i+UmzZFrl9nqvLM8eBTs6l2G4FrdEd9J5Ws9dzl69Vfo2ue 7o5OS4xEbII82skvpQ+NdHjsR7WNX23tn9YiMR+yMwL77fZ+qrY5AxRKh A=; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.58,362,1544515200"; d="scan'208";a="27626209" Received: from unknown (HELO ironmsg03-sd.qualcomm.com) ([10.53.140.143]) by alexa-out-sd-01.qualcomm.com with ESMTP; 12 Feb 2019 14:06:05 -0800 Received: from nasanexm01e.na.qualcomm.com ([10.85.0.31]) by ironmsg03-sd.qualcomm.com with ESMTP/TLS/AES256-SHA; 12 Feb 2019 14:06:05 -0800 Received: from NASANEXM01C.na.qualcomm.com (10.85.0.83) by NASANEXM01E.na.qualcomm.com (10.85.0.31) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1395.4; Tue, 12 Feb 2019 14:06:04 -0800 Received: from NASANEXM01C.na.qualcomm.com ([10.85.0.83]) by NASANEXM01C.na.qualcomm.com ([10.85.0.83]) with mapi id 15.00.1395.000; Tue, 12 Feb 2019 14:06:04 -0800 From: Giridhar Mandyam To: "payload@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [payload] I-D Action: draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-17.txt Thread-Index: AQHUwx6kdK/ayDjmXUqB7DQ+hsKTNqXctx+Q Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2019 22:06:04 +0000 Message-ID: <75d4e3e268bf4346b1c7f5bc9c88c171@NASANEXM01C.na.qualcomm.com> References: <155000890038.8591.10002380517887497422@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <155000890038.8591.10002380517887497422@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.80.80.8] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [payload] I-D Action: draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-17.txt X-BeenThere: payload@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Payloads working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2019 22:06:10 -0000 Hello All, Please note that this latest version is in response to the following LC rev= iews: GenArt - several misspellings, and additional guidance in Section 8. SecDir - reference to DTLS in Sec 9 added to replace reference to TLS TsvArt - Added Sec. 1.1.5 on Flexible Mask usage. Clarified use of ToP. IANA - clarified in Sec. 10 the relevant section for IANA -----Original Message----- From: payload On Behalf Of internet-drafts@ietf.= org Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2019 2:02 PM To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: payload@ietf.org Subject: [payload] I-D Action: draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-17.tx= t ------------------------------------------------------------------------- CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director= ies. This draft is a work item of the Audio/Video Transport Payloads WG of the I= ETF. Title : RTP Payload Format for Flexible Forward Error Cor= rection (FEC) Authors : Mo Zanaty Varun Singh Ali Begen Giridhar Mandyam Filename : draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-17.txt Pages : 50 Date : 2019-02-12 Abstract: This document defines new RTP payload formats for the Forward Error Correction (FEC) packets that are generated by the non-interleaved and interleaved parity codes from source media encapsulated in RTP. These parity codes are systematic codes, where a number of FEC repair packets are generated from a set of source packets from one or more source RTP streams. These FEC repair packets are sent in a redundancy RTP stream separate from the source RTP stream(s) that carries the source packets. RTP source packets that were lost in transmission can be reconstructed using the source and repair packets that were received. The non-interleaved and interleaved parity codes which are defined in this specification offer a good protection against random and bursty packet losses, respectively, at a cost of complexity. The RTP payload formats that are defined in this document address scalability issues experienced with the earlier specifications, and offer several improvements. Due to these changes, the new payload formats are not backward compatible with earlier specifications, but endpoints that do not implement this specification can still work by simply ignoring the FEC repair packets. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-17 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-schem= e-17 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-= 17 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ _______________________________________________ payload mailing list payload@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/payload From nobody Tue Feb 12 15:09:03 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47843126C01 for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2019 15:09:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.002 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.002 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=microsoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id w7wAlFdFYsOg for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2019 15:08:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from NAM06-DM3-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr640096.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.64.96]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 17A50130E0A for ; Tue, 12 Feb 2019 15:08:56 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=selector1; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=Ihp/ZUdfgx1xo2qe9icErv39hoYTsPfAEGkdPu2PyDg=; b=fUXpw9EW8WpcN7bA0pFkTuruY8ksd2SsC+kLTbuYCkL41t0ZY2iILDVlyxBf56ak2/mtYtbVpGlh6dq/lnnnQVA6cG4VeT9KgMcM1UxIvDjVomKEJAmz5lXBX0lrxx6d87YRJ++Ygi+mhyFc/4IxDmg2wkbpqECdv5blx6XKSKw= Received: from BYAPR00MB0456.namprd00.prod.outlook.com (20.178.52.221) by BYAPR00MB0488.namprd00.prod.outlook.com (20.178.53.85) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.1659.0; Tue, 12 Feb 2019 23:08:53 +0000 Received: from BYAPR00MB0456.namprd00.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::7459:197:fbea:a393]) by BYAPR00MB0456.namprd00.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::7459:197:fbea:a393%3]) with mapi id 15.20.1660.000; Tue, 12 Feb 2019 23:08:53 +0000 From: Bernard Aboba To: Varun Singh CC: "Ali C. Begen" , Justin Uberti , "Mandyam, Giridhar" , "Mo Zanaty (mzanaty)" , Robin Raymond , "payload@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: SDP O/A -- L, D, ToP and Flexible mode Thread-Index: AQHUwltucbCvw0ciZEK+kPNjvgQg5qXbSrWsgAA6DQCAATZ8AIAAD+Kc Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2019 23:08:53 +0000 Message-ID: <475EABAD-28F9-461F-A687-1CF580B4EC46@microsoft.com> References: , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [2600:387:4:803::68] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 496a1760-49dc-4c60-09e8-08d6913f0e9d x-ms-office365-filtering-ht: Tenant x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(2390118)(7020095)(4652040)(8989299)(4534185)(4627221)(201703031133081)(201702281549075)(8990200)(5600126)(711020)(4605077)(4618075)(2017052603328)(7193020); SRVR:BYAPR00MB0488; x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BYAPR00MB0488: x-ld-processed: 72f988bf-86f1-41af-91ab-2d7cd011db47,ExtAddr x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 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Subject: Re: [payload] SDP O/A -- L, D, ToP and Flexible mode X-BeenThere: payload@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Payloads working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2019 23:09:01 -0000 T24gRmViIDEyLCAyMDE5LCBhdCAyOjEyIFBNLCBWYXJ1biBTaW5naCA8dmFydW5AY2FsbHN0YXRz LmlvPiB3cm90ZToNCj4gDQo+IERvIFRvUCBtb2RlcyAwLCAxLCBhbmQgMiBpbXBsaWNpdGx5IG1l YW4gbm8gUlRYPw0KDQpbQkFdIEkgYmVsaWV2ZSB0aGF0IGlzIHdoYXQgaXMgaW1wbGljaXQgbm93 LCB0aG91Z2ggaXQgZG9lc27igJl0IG1ha2UgbXVjaCBzZW5zZSB0byBtZS4NCg0KPiBJZiBzbywg d2h5IGRvIHdlIGhhdmUgdGhpcyBmb2xsb3dpbmcgYW1iaWd1aXR5ICAoTCwgRCwgVG9QIGFyZSBh bGwgbWlzc2luZykgbWVhbnMgaXQgaXMgYm90aCBGbGV4ZmVjIEZFQyBhbmQgZmxleGZlYyBSVFg/ DQoNCltCQV0gR29vZCBxdWVzdGlvbi4gRm9yIG1lLCBmbGV4aWJsZSB2ZXJzdXMgZml4ZWQgYW5k IHJ0eC9ubyBydHggYXJlIG9ydGhvZ29uYWwgcXVlc3Rpb25zLg0KDQo+IEkgdGhpbmsgdGhlIGlt 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required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QbdS0BNMfN5V for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2019 01:25:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailout0.cwwtf.bbc.co.uk (mailout0.cwwtf.bbc.co.uk [132.185.160.179]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2903C130E6E for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2019 01:25:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from BGB01XI1001.national.core.bbc.co.uk ([10.184.50.51]) by mailout0.cwwtf.bbc.co.uk (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id x1D9Oams001544; Wed, 13 Feb 2019 09:24:36 GMT Received: from BGB01XUD1001.national.core.bbc.co.uk ([10.184.52.80]) by BGB01XI1001.national.core.bbc.co.uk ([10.184.50.51]) with mapi id 14.03.0408.000; Wed, 13 Feb 2019 09:24:35 +0000 From: James Sandford To: "Roni Even (A)" , Nigel Megitt , "payload@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [payload] new draft - RTP Payload for TTML Timed Text Thread-Index: AQHUww3IJnvrFU1bhEuuuCEhNcSFAKXddXxV Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2019 09:24:35 +0000 Message-ID: <734752AF0E88364D983373FE5CEFED57594B9E61@bgb01xud1001> References: , <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD18CB3E04@dggemm526-mbx.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD18CB3E04@dggemm526-mbx.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-GB X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [172.19.161.212] x-exclaimer-md-config: 1cd3ac1c-62e5-43f2-8404-6b688271c769 x-tm-as-product-ver: SMEX-12.5.0.1300-8.2.1013-24052.007 x-tm-as-result: No-22.202200-8.000000-10 x-tmase-matchedrid: TxtdI7DxMqo7iuZ/mdYYtndysr7mPnqL6kOL/MSUCvdfz3eqPsVF7tKD F5sBjuJXqb8bt5iwUztYKMMlFh4BnYWdLRedvR18Hp6T0pXs+wOY2spSGP3t2KduVYQZj4GSDzu eAsqJuiuUocUWkvA59bqQyAveNtg60zEP/d7xPF1G2qlFbyxbItLQxtZ8WmAA36LcfL2m62CSU8 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boundary="_000_734752AF0E88364D983373FE5CEFED57594B9E61bgb01xud1001_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [payload] new draft - RTP Payload for TTML Timed Text X-BeenThere: payload@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Payloads working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2019 09:25:11 -0000 --_000_734752AF0E88364D983373FE5CEFED57594B9E61bgb01xud1001_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 VGhhbmtzLCBSb25pLiBTaG91bGQgSSBtYWtlIHRoZXNlIGNoYW5nZXMgbm93IG9yIHdhaXQgdW50 aWwgdGhlIGNhbGwgZm9yIHRoZSBXRyB0byBhZG9wdCB2MDIgaGFzIGxhcHNlZD8NCg0KUmVnYXJk cywNCkphbWVzDQoNCg0KPT09PT09PT09PQ0KSmFtZXMgU2FuZGZvcmQNClImRCBFbmdpbmVlcg0K DQpCQkMgUmVzZWFyY2ggYW5kIERldmVsb3BtZW50DQo1dGggRmxvb3INCkRvY2sgSG91c2UNCk1l ZGlhQ2l0eVVLDQpTYWxmb3JkDQpNNTAgMkxIDQoNClRlbDogMDMwMzA0ICgwOTU0OSkNCldlYjog 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ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94B9F130FB8 for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2019 22:14:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PXPNQiNaOBQA for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2019 22:14:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BC78A130FED for ; Wed, 13 Feb 2019 22:14:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from LHREML712-CAH.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.106]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 06684D8D1FC680C503E7 for ; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 06:14:39 +0000 (GMT) Received: from DGGEMM404-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.20.212) by LHREML712-CAH.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.35) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.408.0; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 06:14:38 +0000 Received: from DGGEMM526-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.8.222]) by DGGEMM404-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.3.20.212]) with mapi id 14.03.0415.000; Thu, 14 Feb 2019 14:14:28 +0800 From: "Roni Even (A)" To: James Sandford , Nigel Megitt , "payload@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [payload] new draft - RTP Payload for TTML Timed Text Thread-Index: AQHUww3IJnvrFU1bhEuuuCEhNcSFAKXddXxVgAFc9JA= Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 06:14:28 +0000 Message-ID: <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD18CB45C7@dggemm526-mbx.china.huawei.com> References: , <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD18CB3E04@dggemm526-mbx.china.huawei.com> <734752AF0E88364D983373FE5CEFED57594B9E61@bgb01xud1001> In-Reply-To: <734752AF0E88364D983373FE5CEFED57594B9E61@bgb01xud1001> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: 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no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.91.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Cc: iesg-secretary@ietf.org, ali.begen@networked.media, payload-chairs@ietf.org, Ali Begen , payload@ietf.org Message-ID: <155025485348.4600.10945429390656684574.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2019 10:20:53 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [payload] Publication has been requested for draft-ietf-payload-tsvcis-01 X-BeenThere: payload@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Payloads working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2019 18:20:54 -0000 Ali Begen has requested publication of draft-ietf-payload-tsvcis-01 as Proposed Standard on behalf of the PAYLOAD working group. Please verify the document's state at https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-payload-tsvcis/ From nobody Mon Feb 18 13:53:41 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: payload@ietf.org Delivered-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B651B126C7E; Mon, 18 Feb 2019 13:53:33 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Benjamin Kaduk To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme@ietf.org, Roni Even , payload-chairs@ietf.org, roni.even@mail01.huawei.com, payload@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.91.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <155052681367.25946.18116200153523550938.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2019 13:53:33 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [payload] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-17: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: payload@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Payloads working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2019 21:53:34 -0000 Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-17: Discuss When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- DISCUSS: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm confused about some parts of how I'd implement this. It's quite possible this is just my error, but I'm including this point in the Discuss section in case it's not. This basically relates to how multiple recovery packets from a given FEC block get encoded and identified on the wire, but also how to populate the source block when multiple SSRCs are included. In short: suppose that I have D=3 and L=2. I should expect 5 repair packets for the six source packets in a block; the scheme for determining what order to generate them in and what their contents are is fairly clear to me. But how do I identify them on the wire? I'm assuming that the D and L on the wire are fixed values, since there's the possibility to only send zero on the wire and negotiate their values out of band. It's a little less clear whether the "SN base" fields are expected to be the same for all 5 recovery packets based on a given block, but if they do change then I'm not sure how I tell whether a given recovery packet is for a row or a column. Is this supposed to be using the sequence number from the outer RTP header for packet ordering, and the implicit order for row/column FEC packets? (It seems that in case of very bad packet loss and dynamic L+D, the receiver could then get out of sync as to what the sequence number is that corresponds to the start of a new batch of recovery blocks.) I also don't see how, for the case when there are multiple SSRCs, I know how many source packets to include from each SSRC in order to make up the D x L source block -- since Section 6.2's discussion lumps all the "source packets" together into a single set that get mutually xor'd, that seems to imply that the encoding is not "do recovery for SSRC1, do recovery for SSRC2, ..., concatenate them all". There are perhaps some other scenarios to worry about, such as interleaved recovery within a single block, but I'm happy to focus on the single 2-D case for purposes of illustration. Any insight into what I'm missing would be appreciated. A couple other points to check on: I'm not sure I'm following the procedures in Section 6.3.2 properly (see COMMENT) -- is the text correct as written? I also think there are a couple more factors worth mentioning in the security considerations (see COMMENT). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- It's a little odd to see so much content in Section 1.1 before we get to requirements notation and defintions/notations. I think I'm a bit confused about current best practices for multiplexing, as RFC 3550 Section 5.2 says "separate audio and video streams SHOULD NOT be carried in a single RTP session and demultiplexed based on the payload type or SSRC fields", but we seem to be not only recommending using SSRC for demultiplexing repair packets, but also suggesting that the FEC can cover multiple different audio and/or video streams with different SSRCs. I guess RFC 8108 is supposed to clarify when it's okay to use multiple SSRCs in the same RTP session, so maybe the answer is just "3550 was overly cautious and we don't worry about that anymore". Section 4.2.1 Version (V) 2 bits: This MUST be set to 2 (binary 10), as this specification requires all source RTP packets and all FEC repair packets to use RTP version 2. The reason for this restriction is the first 2 bits of the FEC header contain other information (R and F bits) rather than recovering the RTP version field. nit: is it better to say that the FEC mechanism does not recover this value, rather than talking about how the first 2 bits of the FEC header are used for something else? (The FEC header's structure need not bear any relation to the 12-byte RTP header, AFAICT.) Payload Type: The (dynamic) payload type for the FEC repair packets is determined through out-of-band means. [...] Is "(e.g., SDP)" applicable here? Sequence Number (SN): The sequence number follows the standard definition provided in [RFC3550]. definition. Therefore it must nit: drop separate "definition." multiplex multiple repair streams in an RTP session. The repair streams' SSRC's CNAME SHOULD be identical to the CNAME of the source RTP stream(s) that this repair stream protects. An FEC stream that protects multiple source RTP streams with different CNAME's uses the CNAME associated with the entity generating the FEC stream or the CNAME of the entity on whose behalf it performs the protection operation. In cases when the repair stream covers packets from multiple source RTP streams with different CNAME values, any of these CNAME values MAY be used. I'm not sure I'm parsing this properly; the penultimate sentence says that the CNAME to use is determined by nature of the entity producing the repair stream, but the last sentence says that there is a nondeterministic choice. Section 4.2.2 Any reason not to include "retransmit" and "fixed block" mnemonics for the 'R' and 'F' bits? Please include a note here that several fields (e.g., P, PT, etc.) in the FEC header are not meant to be interpreted directly but are instead actual FEC parity data akin to the following "payload". (Absent such an indication, the reader could see that these fields are "used to determine" values when they appear to contain values directly, and get confused.) I would suggest adding a forward-reference to Section 6 since that describes how the Repair Payload is calculated. Section 4.2.2.2 Should implementations set bounds on L and D that are smaller than the maximum encodable value (255)? If L=0, D=0, use the optional payload format parameters for L and D. What is the behavior when those payload format parameters were not provided? The L=1 case seems to imply that some full packet retransmission will be used; is it worth calling that out as a consequence of such a parameter choice? Section 4.2.2.3 nit: The "P|X" bits in Figure 15 seem indented by one too many spaces. Section 5.1 (all subsections) Having the ToP values for interleaved and non-interleaved 1-D protection presented in a different order than virtually all of the body text (that presents non-interleaved first) is needlessly hard on the reader. What is the interaction between rate, repair-window, and the L and D values? That is, if we set L and D to be large, and rate to be small, can we end up claiming a repair window that is too small to accumulate the necessary L*D source packets and compute recovery packets? Section 5.2.1 o The value for the repair-window parameter depends on the L and D values and cannot be chosen arbitrarily. More specifically, L and D values determine the lower limit for the repair-window size. The upper limit of the repair-window size does not depend on the L and D values. Per my above remark, this consideration seems generally applicable and not limited to SDP Offer/Answer. o Any unknown option in the offer MUST be ignored and deleted from the answer. If FEC is not desired by the receiver, it can be deleted from the answer. This sounds like it is restating an existing normative requirement (in which case a reference and descriptive, non-normative, text seems appropriate). Section 6.2 o The first 16 bits of the RTP header (16 bits). Maybe note here that we'll actually ignore the first 2 bits? Section 6.3.2 2. For the repair packet in T, compute the FEC bit string from the first 80 bits of the FEC header. I'm scratching my head a bit at this. Is this operation something other than "take the first 80 bits of the FEC header"? (If not, the length and sequence number base seem to be in different places in the source packets and FEC bit string, if I'm reading things right.) 11. Set the SN field in the new packet to SEQNUM. Skip the next 16 bits in the recovered bit string. To be clear, we're skipping over the xor of the reconstructed length field with the seqnum field of the source packets? 13. Take the next 16 bits of the recovered bit string and set the new variable Y to whatever unsigned integer this represents (assuming network order). Convert Y to host order. Y represents the length of the new packet in bytes minus 12 (for the fixed RTP header), i.e., the sum of the lengths of all the following if present: the CSRC list, header extension, RTP payload and RTP padding. I don't see how this matches up with the bit string construction in Section 6.2. Section 6.3.3 1. Append Y bytes to the new packet. [...] 5. Append the recovered bit string (Y octets) to the new packet generated in Section 6.3.2. I think a different verb than "append" should be used in step 1, perhaps "allocate Y additional bytes for the new packet", as the text as-written has us appending 2*Y bytes, only Y of which have a value specified. Section 9 The main security considerations for the RTP packet carrying the RTP payload format defined within this memo are confidentiality, integrity and source authenticity. Confidentiality is achieved by encrypting the RTP payload. Integrity of the RTP packets is achieved through a suitable cryptographic integrity protection mechanism. [...] This phrasing of "is achieved by" implies that the mechanisms for doing so are defined in this document, but that's not the case. Don't we really mean things like "Confidentiality can be provided by encrypting the RTP payload"? Given that FLEX FEC enables the protection of multiple source streams, there exists the possibility that multiple source buffers may be created that may not be used. An attacker could leverage unused source buffers to as a means of occupying memory in a FLEX FEC endpoint. Moreover the application source data may not be perfectly matched with FLEX FEC source partitioning. If this is the case, there is a possibility for unprotected source data if, for instance, the FLEX FEC implementation discards data that does not fit perfectly into its source processing requirements. I don't think this text quite covers the risks when interacting with an adversarial endpoint -- an attacker could try to advertise FEC schemes with large D and L and/or large repair windows, that cause the receiver to consume a lot of resources buffering packets that may be used as repair inputs. Endpoints need to be aware of the risk when deciding whether to accept FEC streams, e.g., via SDP Offer/Answer. Similarly, a network attacker could modify the recovery fields corresponding to packet lengths (when integrity protection is not in play), to force large allocations on the receiver. It's fairly likely that this doesn't even require knowing which source packet(s) will be lost, since length is a 16-bit field and the expected input values are not likely to have the high bit(s) set. The need for integrity protection on the SDP Offer/Answer exchange is probably sufficiently well-documented elsewhere that we don't need to reiterate it here. From nobody Tue Feb 19 17:46:51 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: payload@ietf.org Delivered-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 036EE128D0B; Tue, 19 Feb 2019 17:46:50 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Spencer Dawkins To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme@ietf.org, Roni Even , payload-chairs@ietf.org, roni.even@mail01.huawei.com, payload@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.91.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <155062721000.20792.797838487554338141.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2019 17:46:50 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [payload] Spencer Dawkins' No Objection on draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-17: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: payload@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Payloads working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2019 01:46:50 -0000 Spencer Dawkins has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-17: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I do have one question - the IESG has approved https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-fecframe-ext/, which updates RFC 6363 to support sliding encoding window codes, in addition to block codes, and it seems like that would be useful for real-time payload FEC here. Is that something that people have looked at? From nobody Wed Feb 20 03:16:03 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34972130DE3 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2019 03:15:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=networked-media.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5GsORTswsZ3z for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2019 03:15:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm1-x342.google.com (mail-wm1-x342.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::342]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6BB0612DDA3 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2019 03:15:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wm1-x342.google.com with SMTP id j125so6025220wmj.1 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2019 03:15:54 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=networked-media.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=LL1Y5lK73YeasUydwRLBqeRrivdX2OGEDR6Cnnu3n48=; b=gDxs+MwBnVpbSkr5sGkBiyNk1bhMO5U7JRWGcKH4JVJox4S5BFzh5hB5rYoFgkRiJO qQ7p4My/K0d9Mv7mtpOrzWD3STddPHjYiqi0V1VZDfqeghXb8ocgVrUlct9E+ODUVqSs rikxm6czgurACc4H4J0lqKhpkYrd8odzPG8CStJP1u4TJYgvRnc38q6c5LksnxEJpoUH mB3lLmqGCQZfuRBmog0JHLcSCLX3Mrks6yhP2UaLQk7ybb9GPHw+Xt4qToa4vT9kYxya FGomWIQGeWZYiGL94Wbm9Sjr6ds8o2I5wbT8ZncKAT3Go54TkJL/cuPUyEJt/TXM8ufZ gRgg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=LL1Y5lK73YeasUydwRLBqeRrivdX2OGEDR6Cnnu3n48=; b=bzmKUrJwRwwgSJNwtMafJBg8cCaerw6rjz0oJl6EaVkOhRR+5YM7IfOWgoAS8aCbg0 C0C/JVvAzRJi5YVb93bScOBktDMxwMCUTx8Jo4g80nv0PY5iSlbWPn/kh7jN918ZjLm8 7JrT2c1k9KjfN5zwCBHcSw/KDxp1t41cRdkwrQPoqah8IXvt+9ReGxEcNuMA6cb8Ia53 QflXRiFx4E2k7ozwKJEzKwEEE8PQgSvgo3EDS1wXT57OIG5oLkKHqx9ukyoggMS2CJc/ 8W2GOUxkPqzQEhKdZJO/vS6gLlrwOZVYSujn02a64zeS63SokYJtT7f7axiUpQ/K41zN /KRQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AHQUAua3+eFoPXz5Wlistxf8dIVbYSnvVJ7lWWWCZ8XCDjlAO4JSs5WK 1sRUVF0G0KdedE0CckpYzmDsdQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AHgI3IZyNdA1qU3/42Z5G9KW3766/hNBH8ICGlCPB2MaDSHqo6KidZFRMAtr8ekzRIGlQMeRmA1xMg== X-Received: by 2002:a7b:cf03:: with SMTP id l3mr6252803wmg.14.1550661352488; Wed, 20 Feb 2019 03:15:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.157] ([85.105.47.236]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y22sm7617279wmj.6.2019.02.20.03.15.50 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 20 Feb 2019 03:15:51 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.2 \(3445.102.3\)) From: "Ali C. Begen" In-Reply-To: <155062721000.20792.797838487554338141.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2019 14:15:48 +0300 Cc: The IESG , draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme@ietf.org, Roni Even , payload-chairs@ietf.org, roni.even@mail01.huawei.com, payload@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <6A856750-B7B4-42F0-8839-4BA4E0C6F0D4@networked.media> References: <155062721000.20792.797838487554338141.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> To: Spencer Dawkins X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.102.3) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [payload] Spencer Dawkins' No Objection on draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-17: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: payload@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Payloads working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2019 11:15:57 -0000 > On Feb 20, 2019, at 4:46 AM, Spencer Dawkins = wrote: >=20 > Spencer Dawkins has entered the following ballot position for > draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-17: No Objection >=20 > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut = this > introductory paragraph, however.) >=20 >=20 > Please refer to = https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. >=20 >=20 > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme/ >=20 >=20 >=20 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 > I do have one question - the IESG has approved > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-tsvwg-fecframe-ext/, which = updates > RFC 6363 to support sliding encoding window codes, in addition to = block codes, > and it seems like that would be useful for real-time payload FEC here. = Is that > something that people have looked at? FEC framework does not have to use RTP as it offers a generic framework. = The flexfec here is, though, built for a specific purpose.=20= From nobody Thu Feb 21 03:32:30 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: payload@ietf.org Delivered-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 109B4130F86; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 03:32:29 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind?= To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme@ietf.org, Roni Even , payload-chairs@ietf.org, roni.even@mail01.huawei.com, payload@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.91.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <155074874906.8615.9197502002604474381.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2019 03:32:29 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [payload] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_No_Objection_on_dra?= =?utf-8?q?ft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-17=3A_=28with_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: payload@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Payloads working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2019 11:32:29 -0000 Mirja Kühlewind has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-17: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for the well-written document! From nobody Thu Feb 21 03:46:00 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: payload@ietf.org Delivered-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50D68130F86; Thu, 21 Feb 2019 03:45:58 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind?= To: "The IESG" Cc: draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme@ietf.org, Roni Even , payload-chairs@ietf.org, roni.even@mail01.huawei.com, payload@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.91.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <155074955832.8761.15687128690661500802.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2019 03:45:58 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [payload] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_No_Objection_on_dra?= =?utf-8?q?ft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-17=3A_=28with_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: payload@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Payloads working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2019 11:45:58 -0000 Mirja Kühlewind has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-17: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for the well-written document! And thanks for addressing the TSV-ART comments (and thanks Bernard for the review)! 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Thu, 21 Feb 2019 15:09:15 +0000 From: Magnus Westerlund To: Benjamin Kaduk , The IESG CC: "roni.even@mail01.huawei.com" , "payload-chairs@ietf.org" , "payload@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [payload] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-17: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHUx9RrE+qo8a/ki06DNNe3BRLJCQ== Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2019 15:09:15 +0000 Message-ID: References: <155052681367.25946.18116200153523550938.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: sv-SE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [192.176.1.93] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 8d3cda7c-2309-4a00-4888-08d6980e8b61 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(2390118)(7020095)(4652040)(8989299)(4534185)(4627221)(201703031133081)(201702281549075)(8990200)(5600110)(711020)(4605104)(2017052603328)(7153060)(7193020); SRVR:DB6PR0701MB2917; x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: DB6PR0701MB2917: x-ms-exchange-purlcount: 3 x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: =?us-ascii?Q?1; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 8d3cda7c-2309-4a00-4888-08d6980e8b61 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 21 Feb 2019 15:09:15.3525 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB6PR0701MB2917 X-OriginatorOrg: ericsson.com X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA02SfUhTURjGOfdju64mx6X4Yg1k6D85zTRplEiB2QiVirQQIYdedKRT7lVJ Iz9rmBqtgsxFpTnTVlam5qBC1BRkhqUWmthmrkQUivCz5sjtGvTf732f5z3neQ+HIWV36QBG q8tnOZ0mWyGSUPVnugtC5T261PCZbi/VxhSnuu28Tqpa2usJlcW+JlaNfnhHqByX1shDIrXJ tE6oLR12Wl0xPEAeJ1Mk0RlstraQ5fbEpEmyrLWJea0l5weGnGQZWk+vRl4M4H0w5loiq5GE keG3CJ6u6reKFQT3zDcJt0uGTQS0NHkEChtIMIx3igRXHQFda4+2CgcCp6VW5B4RYRVMrpV7 2BdHQ9P0G884ifUEdK620W5hBy4Go36WFEwXoL/qIy1wGDRbb3mYwsFgtpg9B0lxGtQsdm9m YjZvS4QrP4PcbYTlYFv9QrmZxP7w2XGfEJbDYHo9QgrsB/OzLto9CjgQbJMpQlsOo/drkMAJ 8OD7IHLHBDyFYLzVtiUoYWakTCxwADSOLIkF0w1vWBnrogUhF4zXBrdMu+DlQiMhmH7TUFG3 JBYekoWWtstISK2BifJvhAGFGv8LLrASGl79EgkcAg8bF0ijZ38fGKp3UA2IMiM/nuX5nMyI iDCW06bzfK4uTMfmv0Cbn6a3888BC+qdO9yHMIMU26XB7bpUGa0p5Ity+hAwpMJXGvR8syXN 0BQVs1zuWa4gm+X70E6GUvhLnTKfVBnO1OSz51g2j+X+qQTjFVCGvJ/MP/6Krx4MtQ/6pJWd sumz4iYWjzUti6tccYuUKcnREWQvFVnZyJMTXXOVP0wNFYbmUvWSn/RZzImeRWdEYUISVb5/ TmVopWN1MZVR3EX50dnIWmV6YE2/+f22DavjdAn3KXxYHh8V0tZjz5uO1ycna+/EKY+4Ypc1 4hkFxWdp9u4mOV7zF1MsmqUwAwAA Archived-At: Subject: Re: [payload] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-17: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: payload@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Payloads working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2019 15:09:25 -0000 Hi Benjamin,=0A= =0A= I am not one of the authors, but one that have helped beating on this=0A= document in the WG, so I think I can answer your questions. I think the=0A= authors should check what I say and check the last part of the comments.=0A= =0A= On 2019-02-18 22:53, Benjamin Kaduk wrote:=0A= > Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for=0A= > draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-17: Discuss=0A= >=0A= > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all=0A= > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this= =0A= > introductory paragraph, however.)=0A= >=0A= >=0A= > Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html= =0A= > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.=0A= >=0A= >=0A= > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:=0A= > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme/= =0A= >=0A= >=0A= >=0A= > ----------------------------------------------------------------------=0A= > DISCUSS:=0A= > ----------------------------------------------------------------------=0A= >=0A= > I'm confused about some parts of how I'd implement this.=0A= > It's quite possible this is just my error, but I'm including this point i= n=0A= > the Discuss section in case it's not. This basically relates to how=0A= > multiple recovery packets from a given FEC block get encoded and identifi= ed=0A= > on the wire, but also how to populate the source block when multiple SSRC= s=0A= > are included.=0A= >=0A= > In short: suppose that I have D=3D3 and L=3D2. I should expect 5 repair= =0A= > packets for the six source packets in a block; the scheme for determining= =0A= > what order to generate them in and what their contents are is fairly clea= r=0A= > to me. But how do I identify them on the wire? I'm assuming that the D= =0A= > and L on the wire are fixed values, since there's the possibility to only= =0A= > send zero on the wire and negotiate their values out of band. It's a=0A= > little less clear whether the "SN base" fields are expected to be the sam= e=0A= > for all 5 recovery packets based on a given block, but if they do change= =0A= > then I'm not sure how I tell whether a given recovery packet is for a row= =0A= > or a column. Is this supposed to be using the sequence number from the= =0A= > outer RTP header for packet ordering, and the implicit order for row/colu= mn=0A= > FEC packets? (It seems that in case of very bad packet loss and dynamic= =0A= > L+D, the receiver could then get out of sync as to what the sequence numb= er=0A= > is that corresponds to the start of a new batch of recovery blocks.)=0A= =0A= So, if one are going to do a 2-D FEC code and have indicated that in the=0A= signaling, each repair packet is still either a row or column FEC. So a=0A= Row packet for your D=3D3 and L=3D2 2-D FEC configurations are going to say= :=0A= =0A= Sn base=3D i, L=3D2 D=3D1=0A= =0A= The rest of the Row packets for this block are going to have:=0A= =0A= Sn base=3Di+2, L=3D2 D=3D1=0A= =0A= Sn base=3D i+4, L=3D2 D=3D1=0A= =0A= Then the column packets=0A= =0A= Sn base=3Di, L=3D2 D=3D3=0A= =0A= Sn base=3Di+1, L=3D2 D=3D3=0A= =0A= >From a receiver perspective you are not actually not caring about what=0A= block structures the sender uses. You anyway only can store received FEC=0A= packet in a receiver buffer for the stipulated time. When a repair=0A= packet comes in one checks if that repairs any loss, otherwise stores it=0A= in the buffer.=0A= =0A= =0A= > I also don't see how, for the case when there are multiple SSRCs, I know= =0A= > how many source packets to include from each SSRC in order to make up the= =0A= > D x L source block -- since Section 6.2's discussion lumps all the "sourc= e=0A= > packets" together into a single set that get mutually xor'd, that seems t= o=0A= > imply that the encoding is not "do recovery for SSRC1, do recovery for=0A= > SSRC2, ..., concatenate them all".=0A= =0A= Well, for each SSRC one follows the SN base and L and D parameters. This=0A= results in a number of packets that the XOR is performed over.=0A= =0A= Does this help?=0A= =0A= Cheers=0A= =0A= Magnus=0A= =0A= =0A= > There are perhaps some other scenarios to worry about, such as interleave= d=0A= > recovery within a single block, but I'm happy to focus on the single 2-D= =0A= > case for purposes of illustration.=0A= >=0A= > Any insight into what I'm missing would be appreciated.=0A= >=0A= >=0A= > A couple other points to check on:=0A= >=0A= > I'm not sure I'm following the procedures in Section 6.3.2 properly (see= =0A= > COMMENT) -- is the text correct as written?=0A= >=0A= > I also think there are a couple more factors worth mentioning in the=0A= > security considerations (see COMMENT).=0A= >=0A= >=0A= > ----------------------------------------------------------------------=0A= > COMMENT:=0A= > ----------------------------------------------------------------------=0A= >=0A= > It's a little odd to see so much content in Section 1.1 before we get to= =0A= > requirements notation and defintions/notations.=0A= >=0A= > I think I'm a bit confused about current best practices for multiplexing,= =0A= > as RFC 3550 Section 5.2 says "separate audio and video streams SHOULD NOT= =0A= > be carried in a single RTP session and demultiplexed based on the payload= =0A= > type or SSRC fields", but we seem to be not only recommending using SSRC= =0A= > for demultiplexing repair packets, but also suggesting that the FEC can= =0A= > cover multiple different audio and/or video streams with different SSRCs.= =0A= > I guess RFC 8108 is supposed to clarify when it's okay to use multiple=0A= > SSRCs in the same RTP session, so maybe the answer is just "3550 was over= ly=0A= > cautious and we don't worry about that anymore".=0A= >=0A= > Section 4.2.1=0A= >=0A= > Version (V) 2 bits: This MUST be set to 2 (binary 10), as this=0A= > specification requires all source RTP packets and all FEC repair=0A= > packets to use RTP version 2. The reason for this restriction is= =0A= > the first 2 bits of the FEC header contain other information (R=0A= > and F bits) rather than recovering the RTP version field.=0A= >=0A= > nit: is it better to say that the FEC mechanism does not recover this=0A= > value, rather than talking about how the first 2 bits of the FEC header a= re=0A= > used for something else? (The FEC header's structure need not bear any= =0A= > relation to the 12-byte RTP header, AFAICT.)=0A= >=0A= > Payload Type: The (dynamic) payload type for the FEC repair=0A= > packets is determined through out-of-band means. [...]=0A= >=0A= > Is "(e.g., SDP)" applicable here?=0A= >=0A= > Sequence Number (SN): The sequence number follows the standard=0A= > definition provided in [RFC3550]. definition. Therefore it must= =0A= >=0A= > nit: drop separate "definition."=0A= >=0A= > multiplex multiple repair streams in an RTP session. The repair=0A= > streams' SSRC's CNAME SHOULD be identical to the CNAME of the=0A= > source RTP stream(s) that this repair stream protects. An FEC=0A= > stream that protects multiple source RTP streams with different=0A= > CNAME's uses the CNAME associated with the entity generating the=0A= > FEC stream or the CNAME of the entity on whose behalf it performs= =0A= > the protection operation. In cases when the repair stream covers= =0A= > packets from multiple source RTP streams with different CNAME=0A= > values, any of these CNAME values MAY be used.=0A= >=0A= > I'm not sure I'm parsing this properly; the penultimate sentence says tha= t=0A= > the CNAME to use is determined by nature of the entity producing the repa= ir=0A= > stream, but the last sentence says that there is a nondeterministic choic= e.=0A= >=0A= > Section 4.2.2=0A= >=0A= > Any reason not to include "retransmit" and "fixed block" mnemonics for th= e=0A= > 'R' and 'F' bits?=0A= >=0A= > Please include a note here that several fields (e.g., P, PT, etc.) in the= =0A= > FEC header are not meant to be interpreted directly but are instead actua= l=0A= > FEC parity data akin to the following "payload". (Absent such an=0A= > indication, the reader could see that these fields are "used to determine= "=0A= > values when they appear to contain values directly, and get confused.)=0A= >=0A= > I would suggest adding a forward-reference to Section 6 since that=0A= > describes how the Repair Payload is calculated.=0A= >=0A= > Section 4.2.2.2=0A= >=0A= > Should implementations set bounds on L and D that are smaller than the=0A= > maximum encodable value (255)?=0A= >=0A= > If L=3D0, D=3D0, use the optional payload format parameters for L and D.= =0A= >=0A= > What is the behavior when those payload format parameters were not=0A= > provided?=0A= >=0A= > The L=3D1 case seems to imply that some full packet retransmission will b= e used;=0A= > is it worth calling that out as a consequence of such a parameter choice?= =0A= >=0A= > Section 4.2.2.3=0A= >=0A= > nit: The "P|X" bits in Figure 15 seem indented by one too many spaces.=0A= >=0A= > Section 5.1 (all subsections)=0A= >=0A= > Having the ToP values for interleaved and non-interleaved 1-D protection= =0A= > presented in a different order than virtually all of the body text (that= =0A= > presents non-interleaved first) is needlessly hard on the reader.=0A= >=0A= > What is the interaction between rate, repair-window, and the L and D=0A= > values? That is, if we set L and D to be large, and rate to be small, ca= n=0A= > we end up claiming a repair window that is too small to accumulate the=0A= > necessary L*D source packets and compute recovery packets?=0A= >=0A= > Section 5.2.1=0A= >=0A= > o The value for the repair-window parameter depends on the L and D=0A= > values and cannot be chosen arbitrarily. More specifically, L and= =0A= > D values determine the lower limit for the repair-window size.=0A= > The upper limit of the repair-window size does not depend on the L= =0A= > and D values.=0A= >=0A= > Per my above remark, this consideration seems generally applicable and no= t=0A= > limited to SDP Offer/Answer.=0A= >=0A= > o Any unknown option in the offer MUST be ignored and deleted from=0A= > the answer. If FEC is not desired by the receiver, it can be=0A= > deleted from the answer.=0A= >=0A= > This sounds like it is restating an existing normative requirement (in=0A= > which case a reference and descriptive, non-normative, text seems=0A= > appropriate).=0A= >=0A= > Section 6.2=0A= >=0A= > o The first 16 bits of the RTP header (16 bits).=0A= >=0A= > Maybe note here that we'll actually ignore the first 2 bits?=0A= >=0A= > Section 6.3.2=0A= >=0A= > 2. For the repair packet in T, compute the FEC bit string from the= =0A= > first 80 bits of the FEC header.=0A= >=0A= > I'm scratching my head a bit at this. Is this operation something other= =0A= > than "take the first 80 bits of the FEC header"? (If not, the length and= =0A= > sequence number base seem to be in different places in the source packets= =0A= > and FEC bit string, if I'm reading things right.)=0A= >=0A= > 11. Set the SN field in the new packet to SEQNUM. Skip the next 16= =0A= > bits in the recovered bit string.=0A= >=0A= > To be clear, we're skipping over the xor of the reconstructed length fiel= d=0A= > with the seqnum field of the source packets?=0A= >=0A= > 13. Take the next 16 bits of the recovered bit string and set the=0A= > new variable Y to whatever unsigned integer this represents=0A= > (assuming network order). Convert Y to host order. Y=0A= > represents the length of the new packet in bytes minus 12 (for=0A= > the fixed RTP header), i.e., the sum of the lengths of all the=0A= > following if present: the CSRC list, header extension, RTP=0A= > payload and RTP padding.=0A= >=0A= > I don't see how this matches up with the bit string construction in Secti= on=0A= > 6.2.=0A= >=0A= > Section 6.3.3=0A= >=0A= > 1. Append Y bytes to the new packet.=0A= > [...]=0A= > 5. Append the recovered bit string (Y octets) to the new packet=0A= > generated in Section 6.3.2.=0A= >=0A= > I think a different verb than "append" should be used in step 1, perhaps= =0A= > "allocate Y additional bytes for the new packet", as the text as-written= =0A= > has us appending 2*Y bytes, only Y of which have a value specified.=0A= >=0A= > Section 9=0A= >=0A= > The main= =0A= > security considerations for the RTP packet carrying the RTP payload=0A= > format defined within this memo are confidentiality, integrity and=0A= > source authenticity. Confidentiality is achieved by encrypting the=0A= > RTP payload. Integrity of the RTP packets is achieved through a=0A= > suitable cryptographic integrity protection mechanism. [...]=0A= >=0A= > This phrasing of "is achieved by" implies that the mechanisms for doing s= o=0A= > are defined in this document, but that's not the case. Don't we really= =0A= > mean things like "Confidentiality can be provided by encrypting the RTP= =0A= > payload"?=0A= >=0A= > Given that FLEX FEC enables the protection of multiple source=0A= > streams, there exists the possibility that multiple source buffers=0A= > may be created that may not be used. An attacker could leverage=0A= > unused source buffers to as a means of occupying memory in a FLEX FEC= =0A= > endpoint. Moreover the application source data may not be perfectly= =0A= > matched with FLEX FEC source partitioning. If this is the case,=0A= > there is a possibility for unprotected source data if, for instance,= =0A= > the FLEX FEC implementation discards data that does not fit perfectly= =0A= > into its source processing requirements.=0A= >=0A= > I don't think this text quite covers the risks when interacting with an= =0A= > adversarial endpoint -- an attacker could try to advertise FEC schemes wi= th=0A= > large D and L and/or large repair windows, that cause the receiver to=0A= > consume a lot of resources buffering packets that may be used as repair= =0A= > inputs. Endpoints need to be aware of the risk when deciding whether to= =0A= > accept FEC streams, e.g., via SDP Offer/Answer.=0A= >=0A= > Similarly, a network attacker could modify the recovery fields=0A= > corresponding to packet lengths (when integrity protection is not in play= ),=0A= > to force large allocations on the receiver. It's fairly likely that this= =0A= > doesn't even require knowing which source packet(s) will be lost, since= =0A= > length is a 16-bit field and the expected input values are not likely to= =0A= > have the high bit(s) set.=0A= >=0A= > The need for integrity protection on the SDP Offer/Answer exchange is=0A= > probably sufficiently well-documented elsewhere that we don't need to=0A= > reiterate it here.=0A= >=0A= >=0A= > _______________________________________________=0A= > payload mailing list=0A= > payload@ietf.org=0A= > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/payload=0A= >=0A= =0A= -- =0A= =0A= Magnus Westerlund =0A= =0A= ----------------------------------------------------------------------=0A= Network Architecture & Protocols, Ericsson Research=0A= ----------------------------------------------------------------------=0A= Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287=0A= Torshamnsgatan 23 | Mobile +46 73 0949079=0A= SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com=0A= 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X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: de99ade3-81db-4070-ae0d-3c1562041b30 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BYAPR05MB6392 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2019-02-21_14:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_notspam policy=outbound score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=884 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1810050000 definitions=main-1902210152 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [payload] call for adoping RTP Payload Format for ISO/IEC 21122 (JPEG XS) as payload WG milestone X-BeenThere: payload@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Payloads working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2019 22:18:51 -0000 --_000_8D1B629A39724AFB9B141930800632EAfoxegcom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SSBzdXBwb3J0IHRoZSBhZG9wdGlvbiBvZiDigJxSVFAgUGF5bG9hZCBGb3JtYXQgZm9yIElTTy9J RUMgMjExMjIgKEpQRUcgWFMp4oCdIGFzIGEgUGF5bG9hZCBXRyBtaWxlc3RvbmUgd2l0aCBkcmFm dC1sdWdhbi1wYXlsb2FkLXJ0cC1qcGVneHMtMDEgYXMgdGhlIGluaXRpYWwgZG9jdW1lbnQuDQoN Ci1UaG9tYXMgRWR3YXJkcw0KRk9YDQoNCkZyb206IHBheWxvYWQgPHBheWxvYWQtYm91bmNlc0Bp ZXRmLm9yZz4gb24gYmVoYWxmIG9mICJSb25pIEV2ZW4gKEEpIiA8cm9uaS5ldmVuQGh1YXdlaS5j b20+DQpEYXRlOiBUdWVzZGF5LCBGZWJydWFyeSA1LCAyMDE5IGF0IDU6NDQgQU0NClRvOiAicGF5 bG9hZEBpZXRmLm9yZyIgPHBheWxvYWRAaWV0Zi5vcmc+DQpTdWJqZWN0OiBbcGF5bG9hZF0gY2Fs bCBmb3IgYWRvcGluZyBSVFAgUGF5bG9hZCBGb3JtYXQgZm9yIElTTy9JRUMgMjExMjIgKEpQRUcg WFMpIGFzIHBheWxvYWQgV0cgbWlsZXN0b25lDQoNCkhpLA0KVGhpcyBpcyBhIGNhbGwgdG8gYWRv cHQgIFJUUCBQYXlsb2FkIEZvcm1hdCBmb3IgSVNPL0lFQyAyMTEyMiAoSlBFRyBYUykgYXMgYSBQ 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id fMdAPZgwcgm5 for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2019 05:35:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailout1.telhc.bbc.co.uk (mailout1.telhc.bbc.co.uk [132.185.161.180]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E40B8128AFB for ; Fri, 22 Feb 2019 05:35:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from BGB01XI1005.national.core.bbc.co.uk ([10.184.50.55]) by mailout1.telhc.bbc.co.uk (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id x1MDYDNq023596; Fri, 22 Feb 2019 13:34:13 GMT Received: from BGB01XUD1001.national.core.bbc.co.uk ([10.184.52.80]) by BGB01XI1005.national.core.bbc.co.uk ([10.184.50.55]) with mapi id 14.03.0408.000; Fri, 22 Feb 2019 13:34:12 +0000 From: James Sandford To: "Roni Even (A)" , Nigel Megitt , "payload@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [payload] new draft - RTP Payload for TTML Timed Text Thread-Index: AQHUww3IJnvrFU1bhEuuuCEhNcSFAKXddXxVgAFc9JCADQ2ZFg== Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2019 13:34:11 +0000 Message-ID: <734752AF0E88364D983373FE5CEFED57594C8CB8@bgb01xud1001> References: , <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD18CB3E04@dggemm526-mbx.china.huawei.com> <734752AF0E88364D983373FE5CEFED57594B9E61@bgb01xud1001>, <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD18CB45C7@dggemm526-mbx.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD18CB45C7@dggemm526-mbx.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-GB X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [172.19.161.212] x-exclaimer-md-config: 1cd3ac1c-62e5-43f2-8404-6b688271c769 x-tm-as-product-ver: SMEX-12.5.0.1300-8.2.1013-24052.007 x-tm-as-result: No-15.959100-8.000000-10 x-tmase-matchedrid: TxtdI7DxMqo7iuZ/mdYYtndysr7mPnqL6kOL/MSUCvdfz3eqPsVF7tKD F5sBjuJXqb8bt5iwUztYKMMlFh4BnYWdLRedvR18Hp6T0pXs+wOY2spSGP3t2KduVYQZj4GSDzu eAsqJuiuUocUWkvA59bqQyAveNtg60zEP/d7xPF1G2qlFbyxbItLQxtZ8WmAA9oXhCc/UfAJRPW PZ5bRyhIIiDu0n/+6xNNHZMWDTEbeMUoj7yLheDE09c6x/xbNGl1VN+kRE/iOsuYLhg/mv1RZyu 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IGNvcHkgb3IgZGlzY2xvc2UgdGhlIGluZm9ybWF0aW9uIGluIGFueSB3YXkgbm9yIGFjdCBpbiBy ZWxpYW5jZSBvbiBpdCBhbmQgbm90aWZ5IHRoZSBzZW5kZXIgaW1tZWRpYXRlbHkuPGJyPg0KUGxl YXNlIG5vdGUgdGhhdCB0aGUgPHNwYW4gY2xhc3M9ImlsIj5CQkM8L3NwYW4+IG1vbml0b3JzIGUt bWFpbHMgc2VudCBvciByZWNlaXZlZC48YnI+DQpGdXJ0aGVyIGNvbW11bmljYXRpb24gd2lsbCBz aWduaWZ5IHlvdXIgY29uc2VudCB0byB0aGlzLjwvZm9udD48L2ZvbnQ+PC9mb250PjwvZm9udD48 L3A+DQo8cCBjbGFzcz0iNWYyMDJmODEtNzMxMC00YzYxLWJkMTktNzNlYTM1Mjg0ZjNhIj4tLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS08L3A+DQo8L2JvZHk+DQo8L2h0bWw+DQo= --_000_734752AF0E88364D983373FE5CEFED57594C8CB8bgb01xud1001_-- From nobody Sat Feb 23 22:40:17 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: payload@ietf.org Delivered-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD1FC130E84 for ; Sat, 23 Feb 2019 22:40:15 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.91.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <155099041570.27956.6114956142315565020.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 23 Feb 2019 22:40:15 -0800 From: IETF Secretariat Archived-At: Subject: [payload] Milestones changed for payload WG X-BeenThere: payload@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Payloads working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2019 06:40:16 -0000 Changed milestone "Submit RTP Payload Format for TSVCIS Codec for Proposed Standard", resolved as "Done". URL: https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/payload/about/ From nobody Sat Feb 23 22:51:22 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DCF2130E72; Sat, 23 Feb 2019 22:51:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Nro1oJKjScSV; Sat, 23 Feb 2019 22:51:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DBAC51292F1; Sat, 23 Feb 2019 22:49:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from LHREML713-CAH.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.107]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id 25354E83BCCD9D90F0E1; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 06:49:07 +0000 (GMT) Received: from lhreml702-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.51) by LHREML713-CAH.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.36) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.408.0; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 06:49:06 +0000 Received: from lhreml702-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.51) by lhreml702-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.51) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1591.10; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 06:49:06 +0000 Received: from DGGEMM406-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.20.214) by lhreml702-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.51) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_0, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA_P256) id 15.1.1591.10 via Frontend Transport; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 06:49:06 +0000 Received: from DGGEMM526-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.8.222]) by DGGEMM406-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.3.20.214]) with mapi id 14.03.0415.000; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 14:49:02 +0800 From: "Roni Even (A)" To: "draft-lugan-payload-rtp-jpegxs.authors@ietf.org" CC: "payload@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [payload] call for adoping RTP Payload Format for ISO/IEC 21122 (JPEG XS) as payload WG milestone Thread-Index: AdS9V+9SVQ2JQjCYQDG3Yx8RvovtYgOtF0rQ Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2019 06:49:03 +0000 Message-ID: <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD18CB748C@dggemm526-mbx.china.huawei.com> References: <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD18CB2897@dggemm526-mbx.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD18CB2897@dggemm526-mbx.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.200.202.80] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD18CB748Cdggemm526mbxchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [payload] call for adoping RTP Payload Format for ISO/IEC 21122 (JPEG XS) as payload WG milestone X-BeenThere: payload@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Payloads working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2019 06:51:21 -0000 --_000_6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD18CB748Cdggemm526mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Based on the response on the mailing list we will adopt a new milestone for= RTP Payload Format for ISO/IEC 21122 (JPEG XS) and accept https://tools.ie= tf.org/html/draft-lugan-payload-rtp-jpegxs-01 as the initial document Authors please submit you document as draft-ietf-payoad-rtp-jpegxs-00 Roni Even Payload WG co-chair From: payload [mailto:payload-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Roni Even (A) Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2019 3:44 PM To: payload@ietf.org Subject: [payload] call for adoping RTP Payload Format for ISO/IEC 21122 (J= PEG XS) as payload WG milestone Hi, This is a call to adopt RTP Payload Format for ISO/IEC 21122 (JPEG XS) as = a Payload WG milestone and have https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-lugan-pay= load-rtp-jpegxs-01 as the initial document. This is an RTP payload and as such is in the charter of the WG. Please let the chairs know if you are OK with this work. Please respond by February 22nd Roni Even Payload WG co-chair --_000_6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD18CB748Cdggemm526mbxchi_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,<= /p>

Based on the response = on the mailing list we will adopt a new milestone for RTP Payload Format for ISO/IEC 21122 (JP= EG XS) and accept h= ttps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-lugan-payload-rtp-jpegxs-01 as the ini= tial document

 =

Authors please submit yo= u document as draft-ietf-payoad-rtp-jpegxs-00

 =

 =

Roni Even

Payload WG co-chair= 

 
 

 

 

From: payload = [mailto:payload-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Roni Even (A)
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2019 3:44 PM
To: payload@ietf.org
Subject: [payload] call for adoping RTP Payload Format for ISO/IEC 2= 1122 (JPEG XS) as payload WG milestone

 

Hi,

This is a call to adopt  RTP Payload Forma= t for ISO/IEC 21122 (JPEG XS) as a Payload WG milestone and have h= ttps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-lugan-payload-rtp-jpegxs-01  as t= he initial document.

 =

This is an RTP payload a= nd as such is in the charter of the WG.

 =

Please let the chairs kn= ow if you are OK with this work.

 =

Please respond by Februa= ry 22nd

 =

Roni Even Payload WG co-= chair

 =

 =

 =

 

 

--_000_6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD18CB748Cdggemm526mbxchi_-- From nobody Sun Feb 24 16:03:33 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E745D1275F3; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 16:03:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, GB_SUMOF=5, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=qti.qualcomm.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uFgcNHWEUePs; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 16:03:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from alexa-out-sd-02.qualcomm.com (alexa-out-sd-02.qualcomm.com [199.106.114.39]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 33F9312867A; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 16:03:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=qti.qualcomm.com; i=@qti.qualcomm.com; q=dns/txt; s=qcdkim; t=1551052999; x=1582588999; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=hIjaR7wwqHTLzyuhIHC8g+D/szmVipM6mTg2YWIk4Bk=; b=ElGoPLlY31pTVhV5DPNeHdXNvGEeSAKW2mK0g4C7zAHrra3RCAbAgLHh VdTNNRMYzT10smRNwMiyeXiC4rDHUwHPg8JeDVEJ4IC5qnSf97C6JAJ9S qz/FEemhE9XNQicPq7xU06xt5mC6vXcVn0jdxCP76MUJf+FAauFvZ8kjk I=; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.58,409,1544515200"; d="scan'208";a="32555029" Received: from unknown (HELO ironmsg05-sd.qualcomm.com) ([10.53.140.145]) by alexa-out-sd-02.qualcomm.com with ESMTP; 24 Feb 2019 16:03:17 -0800 Received: from nasanexm01b.na.qualcomm.com ([10.85.0.82]) by ironmsg05-sd.qualcomm.com with ESMTP/TLS/AES256-SHA; 24 Feb 2019 16:03:17 -0800 Received: from NASANEXM01C.na.qualcomm.com (10.85.0.83) by NASANEXM01B.na.qualcomm.com (10.85.0.82) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1395.4; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 16:03:17 -0800 Received: from NASANEXM01C.na.qualcomm.com ([10.85.0.83]) by NASANEXM01C.na.qualcomm.com ([10.85.0.83]) with mapi id 15.00.1395.000; Sun, 24 Feb 2019 16:03:17 -0800 From: Giridhar Mandyam To: Magnus Westerlund , Benjamin Kaduk , The IESG CC: "roni.even@mail01.huawei.com" , "payload-chairs@ietf.org" , "payload@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [payload] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-17: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHUx9RmiuNsr5OuwEy90ary5L7nTaXvcY8g Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2019 00:03:16 +0000 Message-ID: <0ef384ddaabd4883b77db08a477ab822@NASANEXM01C.na.qualcomm.com> References: <155052681367.25946.18116200153523550938.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [199.106.107.6] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [payload] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-17: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: payload@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Payloads working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2019 00:03:23 -0000 Thanks to Magnus for the partial response, and Benjamin for the careful rev= iew. >> It's a little odd to see so much content in Section 1.1 before we get to= requirements notation and defintions/notations. I don't know what to make of this comment. Is there a concrete suggestion = that you may have in mind? > I think I'm a bit confused about current best practices for multiplexing= , as RFC 3550 Section 5.2 says "separate audio and video streams SHOULD NOT= be carried in a single RTP session and demultiplexed based on the payload = type or SSRC fields", but we seem to be not only recommending using SSRC fo= r demultiplexing repair packets, but also suggesting that the FEC can cover= multiple different audio and/or video streams with different SSRCs. I gues= s RFC 8108 is supposed to clarify when it's okay to use multiple SSRCs in = the same RTP session, so maybe the answer is just "3550 was overly cautious= and we don't worry about that anymore". I think the confusion lies around audio and video source streams. The repa= ir packets corresponding to bundled protection are not really source stream= s, which is what the 3550 guidance was addressing. I think 3550 did not co= ntemplate bundled protection. > Section 4.2.1 > > Version (V) 2 bits: This MUST be set to 2 (binary 10), as this > specification requires all source RTP packets and all FEC repair > packets to use RTP version 2. The reason for this restriction is > the first 2 bits of the FEC header contain other information (R > and F bits) rather than recovering the RTP version field. > > nit: is it better to say that the FEC mechanism does not recover this=20 > value, rather than talking about how the first 2 bits of the FEC=20 > header are used for something else? (The FEC header's structure need=20 > not bear any relation to the 12-byte RTP header, AFAICT.) Proposal: remove the sentence starting with "The reason for this restricti= on ...". > > Payload Type: The (dynamic) payload type for the FEC repair > packets is determined through out-of-band means. [...] > > Is "(e.g., SDP)" applicable here? > > Sequence Number (SN): The sequence number follows the standard > definition provided in [RFC3550]. definition. Therefore it=20 > must > > nit: drop separate "definition." > Good catch. Will drop in revised I-D. > multiplex multiple repair streams in an RTP session. The repair > streams' SSRC's CNAME SHOULD be identical to the CNAME of the > source RTP stream(s) that this repair stream protects. An FEC > stream that protects multiple source RTP streams with different > CNAME's uses the CNAME associated with the entity generating the > FEC stream or the CNAME of the entity on whose behalf it performs > the protection operation. In cases when the repair stream covers > packets from multiple source RTP streams with different CNAME > values, any of these CNAME values MAY be used. > > I'm not sure I'm parsing this properly; the penultimate sentence says=20 > that the CNAME to use is determined by nature of the entity producing=20 > the repair stream, but the last sentence says that there is a nondetermin= istic choice. > Proposed change to last sentence: "in cases when the repair stream covers = packets from multiple source RTP stream with difference CNAME values and no= ne of these CNAM values can be associated with the entity generating the FE= C stream, then any of these CNAME values MAY be used." > Section 4.2.2 > > Any reason not to include "retransmit" and "fixed block" mnemonics for=20 > the 'R' and 'F' bits? > Can you explain further? The R/F definitions already include mention of re= transmission and fixed FEC L/D. > Please include a note here that several fields (e.g., P, PT, etc.) in=20 > the FEC header are not meant to be interpreted directly but are=20 > instead actual FEC parity data akin to the following "payload". =20 > (Absent such an indication, the reader could see that these fields are "u= sed to determine" > values when they appear to contain values directly, and get confused.) > > I would suggest adding a forward-reference to Section 6 since that=20 > describes how the Repair Payload is calculated. I am sorry. I do not understand what is meant by "used to determine" value= s. Can you explain? > Section 4.2.2.2 > > Should implementations set bounds on L and D that are smaller than the=20 > maximum encodable value (255)? Yes. This is assumed. > If L=3D0, D=3D0, use the optional payload format parameters for L and D. > What is the behavior when those payload format parameters were not=20 > provided? > Optional payload format parameters may be provided in SDP (see Sec. 5.1). > The L=3D1 case seems to imply that some full packet retransmission will=20 > be used; is it worth calling that out as a consequence of such a paramete= r choice? I am not sure that I understand this statement. L=3D1 does not imply anyth= ing about the value of D. > Section 4.2.2.3 > > nit: The "P|X" bits in Figure 15 seem indented by one too many spaces. Thanks. Will revise on next I.-D. > Section 5.1 (all subsections) > > Having the ToP values for interleaved and non-interleaved 1-D=20 > protection presented in a different order than virtually all of the=20 > body text (that presents non-interleaved first) is needlessly hard on the= reader. What would you suggest? Would sub-bullets help? > What is the interaction between rate, repair-window, and the L and D=20 > values? That is, if we set L and D to be large, and rate to be small,=20 > can we end up claiming a repair window that is too small to accumulate=20 > the necessary L*D source packets and compute recovery packets? Yes, it is possible. We expect that specific uses of FLEX FEC will bound t= he appropriate values for repair window, L and D. It is difficult to estab= lish these bounds in this specification, however, since the applications th= at are currently making use of FLEX FEC are varied (e.g. WebRTC, 3GPP MTSI)= . We expect these specification to provide concrete guidance on the expect= ed repair windows, L and D, based on the target application. > Section 5.2.1 > > o The value for the repair-window parameter depends on the L and D > values and cannot be chosen arbitrarily. More specifically, L and > D values determine the lower limit for the repair-window size. > The upper limit of the repair-window size does not depend on the L > and D values. > > Per my above remark, this consideration seems generally applicable and=20 > not limited to SDP Offer/Answer. This is also covered in Sec. 1.1, which provides the general guidance. > o Any unknown option in the offer MUST be ignored and deleted from > the answer. If FEC is not desired by the receiver, it can be > deleted from the answer. > > This sounds like it is restating an existing normative requirement (in=20 > which case a reference and descriptive, non-normative, text seems=20 > appropriate). This requirement is specific to SDP O/A. Can you explain further as to why = you think there is a different normative requirement? > Section 6.2 > > o The first 16 bits of the RTP header (16 bits). > > Maybe note here that we'll actually ignore the first 2 bits? Why? The FEC repair is covering all relevant parts of the first 16 bits of= the RTP header. > Section 6.3.2 > > 2. For the repair packet in T, compute the FEC bit string from the > first 80 bits of the FEC header. > > I'm scratching my head a bit at this. Is this operation something=20 > other than "take the first 80 bits of the FEC header"? (If not, the=20 > length and sequence number base seem to be in different places in the=20 > source packets and FEC bit string, if I'm reading things right.) Yes, this is simply the first 80 bits as per the header formats in Sec.'s 4= .2.2.1 and 4.2.2.2. The wording as it stands seems to be accurate. Did yo= u have a suggestion in mind? > 11. Set the SN field in the new packet to SEQNUM. Skip the next 16 > bits in the recovered bit string. > > To be clear, we're skipping over the xor of the reconstructed length=20 > field with the seqnum field of the source packets? Yes. > 13. Take the next 16 bits of the recovered bit string and set the > new variable Y to whatever unsigned integer this represents > (assuming network order). Convert Y to host order. Y > represents the length of the new packet in bytes minus 12 (for > the fixed RTP header), i.e., the sum of the lengths of all the > following if present: the CSRC list, header extension, RTP > payload and RTP padding. > > I don't see how this matches up with the bit string construction in=20 > Section 6.2. As per Sec. 6.2, "The rest of the FEC bit string, which contains everything after the fixed 12-byte RTP header of the source packet, is written into the Repair "Payload" following the FEC header, where "Payload" refers to everything after the fixed 12-byte RTP header, including extensions, CSRC list, true payloads, and padding." > Section 6.3.3 > > 1. Append Y bytes to the new packet. > [...] > 5. Append the recovered bit string (Y octets) to the new packet > generated in Section 6.3.2. > > I think a different verb than "append" should be used in step 1,=20 > perhaps "allocate Y additional bytes for the new packet", as the text=20 > as-written has us appending 2*Y bytes, only Y of which have a value speci= fied. Agreed. Proposed new wording for steps 1 and 5: "1. Allocate Y additional bytes for the new packet generated in Section 6.= 3.2." "5. Set the last Y octets in the new packet to the recovered bit string."= =20 > Section 9 > > The main > security considerations for the RTP packet carrying the RTP payload > format defined within this memo are confidentiality, integrity and > source authenticity. Confidentiality is achieved by encrypting the > RTP payload. Integrity of the RTP packets is achieved through a > suitable cryptographic integrity protection mechanism. [...] > > This phrasing of "is achieved by" implies that the mechanisms for=20 > doing so are defined in this document, but that's not the case. Don't=20 > we really mean things like "Confidentiality can be provided by=20 > encrypting the RTP payload"? Proposed new wording as recommended: "Confidentiality can be provided by encrypting the RTP payload." =20 > Given that FLEX FEC enables the protection of multiple source > streams, there exists the possibility that multiple source buffers > may be created that may not be used. An attacker could leverage > unused source buffers to as a means of occupying memory in a FLEX FEC > endpoint. Moreover the application source data may not be perfectly > matched with FLEX FEC source partitioning. If this is the case, > there is a possibility for unprotected source data if, for instance, > the FLEX FEC implementation discards data that does not fit perfectly > into its source processing requirements. > > I don't think this text quite covers the risks when interacting with=20 > an adversarial endpoint -- an attacker could try to advertise FEC=20 > schemes with large D and L and/or large repair windows, that cause the=20 > receiver to consume a lot of resources buffering packets that may be=20 > used as repair inputs. Endpoints need to be aware of the risk when=20 > deciding whether to accept FEC streams, e.g., via SDP Offer/Answer. > > Similarly, a network attacker could modify the recovery fields=20 > corresponding to packet lengths (when integrity protection is not in=20 > play), to force large allocations on the receiver. It's fairly likely=20 > that this doesn't even require knowing which source packet(s) will be=20 > lost, since length is a 16-bit field and the expected input values are=20 > not likely to have the high bit(s) set. > > The need for integrity protection on the SDP Offer/Answer exchange is=20 > probably sufficiently well-documented elsewhere that we don't need to=20 > reiterate it here. The Section 8 guidance covers scenarios where the use of a given FEC config= uration can result in no benefits in performance (or even degradation in pe= rformance). If a receiver detects FEC parameters that are inconsistent wit= h the nature of the source data or the transmission conditions, then the re= ceiver could reject the offer (as per Sec. 6 of RFC 3264, "An offered strea= m MAY be rejected in the answer, for any reason"). However, additional gui= dance could improve the current text. "Given that FLEX FEC enables the protection of multiple source streams, the= re exists the possibility that multiple source buffers may be created that = may not be used. An attacker could leverage unused source buffers to as a = means of occupying memory in a FLEX FEC endpoint. ***In addition, an attac= k against the FEC parameters themselves (e.g. repair window, D or L values)= can result in a receiver having to allocate source buffer space that may a= lso lead to excessive consumption of resources.*** Moreover the applicatio= n source data may not be perfectly matched with FLEX FEC source partitionin= g. If this is the case, there is a possibility for unprotected source data= if, for instance, the FLEX FEC implementation discards data that does not = fit perfectly into its source processing requirements. "=20 -----Original Message----- From: payload On Behalf Of Magnus Westerlund Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2019 7:09 AM To: Benjamin Kaduk ; The IESG Cc: roni.even@mail01.huawei.com; payload-chairs@ietf.org; payload@ietf.org;= draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme@ietf.org Subject: Re: [payload] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-payload-flexi= ble-fec-scheme-17: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi Benjamin, I am not one of the authors, but one that have helped beating on this docum= ent in the WG, so I think I can answer your questions. I think the authors = should check what I say and check the last part of the comments. On 2019-02-18 22:53, Benjamin Kaduk wrote: > Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for > draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-17: Discuss > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all=20 > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut=20 > this introductory paragraph, however.) > > > Please refer to=20 > https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-schem > e/ > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > DISCUSS: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I'm confused about some parts of how I'd implement this. > It's quite possible this is just my error, but I'm including this=20 > point in the Discuss section in case it's not. This basically relates=20 > to how multiple recovery packets from a given FEC block get encoded=20 > and identified on the wire, but also how to populate the source block=20 > when multiple SSRCs are included. > > In short: suppose that I have D=3D3 and L=3D2. I should expect 5 repair= =20 > packets for the six source packets in a block; the scheme for=20 > determining what order to generate them in and what their contents are=20 > is fairly clear to me. But how do I identify them on the wire? I'm=20 > assuming that the D and L on the wire are fixed values, since there's=20 > the possibility to only send zero on the wire and negotiate their=20 > values out of band. It's a little less clear whether the "SN base"=20 > fields are expected to be the same for all 5 recovery packets based on=20 > a given block, but if they do change then I'm not sure how I tell=20 > whether a given recovery packet is for a row or a column. Is this=20 > supposed to be using the sequence number from the outer RTP header for=20 > packet ordering, and the implicit order for row/column FEC packets? =20 > (It seems that in case of very bad packet loss and dynamic > L+D, the receiver could then get out of sync as to what the sequence=20 > L+number > is that corresponds to the start of a new batch of recovery blocks.) So, if one are going to do a 2-D FEC code and have indicated that in the si= gnaling, each repair packet is still either a row or column FEC. So a Row p= acket for your D=3D3 and L=3D2 2-D FEC configurations are going to say: Sn base=3D i, L=3D2 D=3D1 The rest of the Row packets for this block are going to have: Sn base=3Di+2, L=3D2 D=3D1 Sn base=3D i+4, L=3D2 D=3D1 Then the column packets Sn base=3Di, L=3D2 D=3D3 Sn base=3Di+1, L=3D2 D=3D3 >From a receiver perspective you are not actually not caring about what block structures the sender uses. You anyway only can store received FEC pa= cket in a receiver buffer for the stipulated time. When a repair packet com= es in one checks if that repairs any loss, otherwise stores it in the buffe= r. > I also don't see how, for the case when there are multiple SSRCs, I=20 > know how many source packets to include from each SSRC in order to=20 > make up the D x L source block -- since Section 6.2's discussion lumps=20 > all the "source packets" together into a single set that get mutually=20 > xor'd, that seems to imply that the encoding is not "do recovery for=20 > SSRC1, do recovery for SSRC2, ..., concatenate them all". Well, for each SSRC one follows the SN base and L and D parameters. This re= sults in a number of packets that the XOR is performed over. Does this help? Cheers Magnus > There are perhaps some other scenarios to worry about, such as=20 > interleaved recovery within a single block, but I'm happy to focus on=20 > the single 2-D case for purposes of illustration. > > Any insight into what I'm missing would be appreciated. > > > A couple other points to check on: > > I'm not sure I'm following the procedures in Section 6.3.2 properly=20 > (see > COMMENT) -- is the text correct as written? > > I also think there are a couple more factors worth mentioning in the=20 > security considerations (see COMMENT). > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > It's a little odd to see so much content in Section 1.1 before we get=20 > to requirements notation and defintions/notations. > > I think I'm a bit confused about current best practices for=20 > multiplexing, as RFC 3550 Section 5.2 says "separate audio and video=20 > streams SHOULD NOT be carried in a single RTP session and=20 > demultiplexed based on the payload type or SSRC fields", but we seem=20 > to be not only recommending using SSRC for demultiplexing repair=20 > packets, but also suggesting that the FEC can cover multiple different au= dio and/or video streams with different SSRCs. > I guess RFC 8108 is supposed to clarify when it's okay to use multiple=20 > SSRCs in the same RTP session, so maybe the answer is just "3550 was=20 > overly cautious and we don't worry about that anymore". > > Section 4.2.1 > > Version (V) 2 bits: This MUST be set to 2 (binary 10), as this > specification requires all source RTP packets and all FEC repair > packets to use RTP version 2. The reason for this restriction is > the first 2 bits of the FEC header contain other information (R > and F bits) rather than recovering the RTP version field. > > nit: is it better to say that the FEC mechanism does not recover this=20 > value, rather than talking about how the first 2 bits of the FEC=20 > header are used for something else? (The FEC header's structure need=20 > not bear any relation to the 12-byte RTP header, AFAICT.) > > Payload Type: The (dynamic) payload type for the FEC repair > packets is determined through out-of-band means. [...] > > Is "(e.g., SDP)" applicable here? > > Sequence Number (SN): The sequence number follows the standard > definition provided in [RFC3550]. definition. Therefore it=20 > must > > nit: drop separate "definition." > > multiplex multiple repair streams in an RTP session. The repair > streams' SSRC's CNAME SHOULD be identical to the CNAME of the > source RTP stream(s) that this repair stream protects. An FEC > stream that protects multiple source RTP streams with different > CNAME's uses the CNAME associated with the entity generating the > FEC stream or the CNAME of the entity on whose behalf it performs > the protection operation. In cases when the repair stream covers > packets from multiple source RTP streams with different CNAME > values, any of these CNAME values MAY be used. > > I'm not sure I'm parsing this properly; the penultimate sentence says=20 > that the CNAME to use is determined by nature of the entity producing=20 > the repair stream, but the last sentence says that there is a nondetermin= istic choice. > > Section 4.2.2 > > Any reason not to include "retransmit" and "fixed block" mnemonics for=20 > the 'R' and 'F' bits? > > Please include a note here that several fields (e.g., P, PT, etc.) in=20 > the FEC header are not meant to be interpreted directly but are=20 > instead actual FEC parity data akin to the following "payload". =20 > (Absent such an indication, the reader could see that these fields are "u= sed to determine" > values when they appear to contain values directly, and get confused.) > > I would suggest adding a forward-reference to Section 6 since that=20 > describes how the Repair Payload is calculated. > > Section 4.2.2.2 > > Should implementations set bounds on L and D that are smaller than the=20 > maximum encodable value (255)? > > If L=3D0, D=3D0, use the optional payload format parameters for L and D. > > What is the behavior when those payload format parameters were not=20 > provided? > > The L=3D1 case seems to imply that some full packet retransmission will=20 > be used; is it worth calling that out as a consequence of such a paramete= r choice? > > Section 4.2.2.3 > > nit: The "P|X" bits in Figure 15 seem indented by one too many spaces. > > Section 5.1 (all subsections) > > Having the ToP values for interleaved and non-interleaved 1-D=20 > protection presented in a different order than virtually all of the=20 > body text (that presents non-interleaved first) is needlessly hard on the= reader. > > What is the interaction between rate, repair-window, and the L and D=20 > values? That is, if we set L and D to be large, and rate to be small,=20 > can we end up claiming a repair window that is too small to accumulate=20 > the necessary L*D source packets and compute recovery packets? > > Section 5.2.1 > > o The value for the repair-window parameter depends on the L and D > values and cannot be chosen arbitrarily. More specifically, L and > D values determine the lower limit for the repair-window size. > The upper limit of the repair-window size does not depend on the L > and D values. > > Per my above remark, this consideration seems generally applicable and=20 > not limited to SDP Offer/Answer. > > o Any unknown option in the offer MUST be ignored and deleted from > the answer. If FEC is not desired by the receiver, it can be > deleted from the answer. > > This sounds like it is restating an existing normative requirement (in=20 > which case a reference and descriptive, non-normative, text seems=20 > appropriate). > > Section 6.2 > > o The first 16 bits of the RTP header (16 bits). > > Maybe note here that we'll actually ignore the first 2 bits? > > Section 6.3.2 > > 2. For the repair packet in T, compute the FEC bit string from the > first 80 bits of the FEC header. > > I'm scratching my head a bit at this. Is this operation something=20 > other than "take the first 80 bits of the FEC header"? (If not, the=20 > length and sequence number base seem to be in different places in the=20 > source packets and FEC bit string, if I'm reading things right.) > > 11. Set the SN field in the new packet to SEQNUM. Skip the next 16 > bits in the recovered bit string. > > To be clear, we're skipping over the xor of the reconstructed length=20 > field with the seqnum field of the source packets? > > 13. Take the next 16 bits of the recovered bit string and set the > new variable Y to whatever unsigned integer this represents > (assuming network order). Convert Y to host order. Y > represents the length of the new packet in bytes minus 12 (for > the fixed RTP header), i.e., the sum of the lengths of all the > following if present: the CSRC list, header extension, RTP > payload and RTP padding. > > I don't see how this matches up with the bit string construction in=20 > Section 6.2. > > Section 6.3.3 > > 1. Append Y bytes to the new packet. > [...] > 5. Append the recovered bit string (Y octets) to the new packet > generated in Section 6.3.2. > > I think a different verb than "append" should be used in step 1,=20 > perhaps "allocate Y additional bytes for the new packet", as the text=20 > as-written has us appending 2*Y bytes, only Y of which have a value speci= fied. > > Section 9 > > The main > security considerations for the RTP packet carrying the RTP payload > format defined within this memo are confidentiality, integrity and > source authenticity. Confidentiality is achieved by encrypting the > RTP payload. Integrity of the RTP packets is achieved through a > suitable cryptographic integrity protection mechanism. [...] > > This phrasing of "is achieved by" implies that the mechanisms for=20 > doing so are defined in this document, but that's not the case. Don't=20 > we really mean things like "Confidentiality can be provided by=20 > encrypting the RTP payload"? > > Given that FLEX FEC enables the protection of multiple source > streams, there exists the possibility that multiple source buffers > may be created that may not be used. An attacker could leverage > unused source buffers to as a means of occupying memory in a FLEX FEC > endpoint. Moreover the application source data may not be perfectly > matched with FLEX FEC source partitioning. If this is the case, > there is a possibility for unprotected source data if, for instance, > the FLEX FEC implementation discards data that does not fit perfectly > into its source processing requirements. > > I don't think this text quite covers the risks when interacting with=20 > an adversarial endpoint -- an attacker could try to advertise FEC=20 > schemes with large D and L and/or large repair windows, that cause the=20 > receiver to consume a lot of resources buffering packets that may be=20 > used as repair inputs. Endpoints need to be aware of the risk when=20 > deciding whether to accept FEC streams, e.g., via SDP Offer/Answer. > > Similarly, a network attacker could modify the recovery fields=20 > corresponding to packet lengths (when integrity protection is not in=20 > play), to force large allocations on the receiver. It's fairly likely=20 > that this doesn't even require knowing which source packet(s) will be=20 > lost, since length is a 16-bit field and the expected input values are=20 > not likely to have the high bit(s) set. > > The need for integrity protection on the SDP Offer/Answer exchange is=20 > probably sufficiently well-documented elsewhere that we don't need to=20 > reiterate it here. > > > _______________________________________________ > payload mailing list > payload@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/payload > --=20 Magnus Westerlund=20 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Network Architecture & Protocols, Ericsson Research ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Torshamnsgatan 23 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ payload mailing list payload@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/payload From nobody Mon Feb 25 14:27:58 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BE771310CB for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2019 14:27:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=networked-media.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9W_1QB8DKvMf for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2019 14:27:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wr1-x436.google.com (mail-wr1-x436.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::436]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8F81E12D4EA for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2019 14:27:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wr1-x436.google.com with SMTP id i12so11759390wrw.0 for ; Mon, 25 Feb 2019 14:27:47 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=networked-media.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=Pr91AxJFRLg6xO5ZEdaYNlF05By5beaLGNpJgtimOag=; b=1Iqe7If2g7F6vqBHy39RugQqE2rnbG0TEFjz9sTL2celOGRUN1Glq/BBgauBR6MqhQ wNpJlAsp3TFtzy3ofZRmhhBIjz0ZRN+04XwhYcYnMsppFftIE7HnXmATehaSxUWpZscH kd4wj7bpyER/AK/JAfl5dIXm3x0+b2JWW0ULudgaNdU2+WezviorsuvEUwFiulJse9O9 j8BWRNrzduNHBhhLXd8ZliOY+/OcEHwHgpbVtnfkDW8mooSCHDEJI7Du86jXycjY6CNd ZX5Fz+ARineDAvR4iUafKr3pFIa6QU+XvaFAXqUDmbaRGY0aJ7Kim6LaNY3TK2m12sCo Um3A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=Pr91AxJFRLg6xO5ZEdaYNlF05By5beaLGNpJgtimOag=; b=lD+d9/4lMsZzvWRl18clD2csQ0m1FKphqQhjehCSG7VY4vgVYGRQDP+tcjfGFhsQa9 DPi0wmZkkZfC1kbtSE896rXlmBn+VM2DF2pGURkB+KHO/KjhOzwThtFktCeCBb785WBI BURdFqyEevdh1hYKbDXatE23WJaiIlBvV1D2a0kMSRxijuTe/K/xPDRq7/trT40Cx3Ry KmIIuao543HOrI+ZaRuouOjPaR1hKsjyvjDXzt1ci+ZTWZFYZm5xH5T2Vb1Kdufdv1e7 YL9Jr2USH/hT3yOQSbUZubb7SQ0hHVC/BQwGyuC8PtCbxqWZH834X/tnnmSarLowcn4D H4OQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AHQUAuZhZnKjER6Ex3eVa0mDR9R4ud6nPI+rATrFm4LmoPU4VwtLmo/W bAxpSCR6oK3vE0fMvXcL8+wOPg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AHgI3IYpZokOcQ73mVrfkZRvjLnBwMrNd4uyKnWLGvP5LoiAHeGCXcUOwiYjDVCZRTo4kPSLCcFW1A== X-Received: by 2002:a5d:4090:: with SMTP id o16mr13645777wrp.208.1551133665768; Mon, 25 Feb 2019 14:27:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.157] ([85.105.47.236]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f13sm6819542wmj.29.2019.02.25.14.27.43 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 25 Feb 2019 14:27:44 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.2 \(3445.102.3\)) From: "Ali C. Begen" In-Reply-To: <0ef384ddaabd4883b77db08a477ab822@NASANEXM01C.na.qualcomm.com> Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2019 01:27:42 +0300 Cc: Magnus Westerlund , Benjamin Kaduk , The IESG , "roni.even@mail01.huawei.com" , "payload-chairs@ietf.org" , "payload@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <155052681367.25946.18116200153523550938.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0ef384ddaabd4883b77db08a477ab822@NASANEXM01C.na.qualcomm.com> To: Giridhar Mandyam X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.102.3) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [payload] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-17: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: payload@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Payloads working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2019 22:27:51 -0000 Just a few comments inline. >> multiplex multiple repair streams in an RTP session. The repair >> streams' SSRC's CNAME SHOULD be identical to the CNAME of the >> source RTP stream(s) that this repair stream protects. An FEC >> stream that protects multiple source RTP streams with different >> CNAME's uses the CNAME associated with the entity generating the >> FEC stream or the CNAME of the entity on whose behalf it = performs >> the protection operation. In cases when the repair stream = covers >> packets from multiple source RTP streams with different CNAME >> values, any of these CNAME values MAY be used. >>=20 >> I'm not sure I'm parsing this properly; the penultimate sentence says=20= >> that the CNAME to use is determined by nature of the entity producing=20= >> the repair stream, but the last sentence says that there is a = nondeterministic choice. >>=20 >=20 > Proposed change to last sentence: "in cases when the repair stream = covers packets from multiple source RTP stream with difference CNAME = values and none of these CNAM values can be associated with the entity = generating the FEC stream, then any of these CNAME values MAY be = used.=E2=80=9D Alternatively, we could revise the last two sentence to: An FEC stream that protects multiple source RTP streams with different = CNAME's MAY use the CNAME associated with the entity generating the FEC = stream, the CNAME of the entity on whose behalf it performs the = protection operation, or the CNAME that belongs to one of the source RTP = streams. >=20 >=20 >> What is the interaction between rate, repair-window, and the L and D=20= >> values? That is, if we set L and D to be large, and rate to be = small,=20 >> can we end up claiming a repair window that is too small to = accumulate=20 >> the necessary L*D source packets and compute recovery packets? >=20 > Yes, it is possible. We expect that specific uses of FLEX FEC will = bound the appropriate values for repair window, L and D. It is = difficult to establish these bounds in this specification, however, = since the applications that are currently making use of FLEX FEC are = varied (e.g. WebRTC, 3GPP MTSI). We expect these specification to = provide concrete guidance on the expected repair windows, L and D, based = on the target application. L, D values can be chosen but that will put a lower bound on the repair = window. If repair window is chosen, that will put an upper bound on L, D = value combinations.=20 >=20 >> Section 5.2.1 >>=20 >> o The value for the repair-window parameter depends on the L and D >> values and cannot be chosen arbitrarily. More specifically, L = and >> D values determine the lower limit for the repair-window size. >> The upper limit of the repair-window size does not depend on the = L >> and D values. >>=20 >> Per my above remark, this consideration seems generally applicable = and=20 >> not limited to SDP Offer/Answer. >=20 > This is also covered in Sec. 1.1, which provides the general guidance. Yup, it is a generic FEC principle. >=20 >> o Any unknown option in the offer MUST be ignored and deleted from >> the answer. If FEC is not desired by the receiver, it can be >> deleted from the answer. >>=20 >> This sounds like it is restating an existing normative requirement = (in=20 >> which case a reference and descriptive, non-normative, text seems=20 >> appropriate). >=20 > This requirement is specific to SDP O/A. Can you explain further as to = why you think there is a different normative requirement? s/MUST/must From nobody Mon Feb 25 14:29:57 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E33F131111; Mon, 25 Feb 2019 14:29:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lA0T60jiHVa5; Mon, 25 Feb 2019 14:29:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailwdc.intopix.com (mailwdc.intopix.com [212.166.5.108]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DE88C131101; Mon, 25 Feb 2019 14:29:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from IPX-MAIL.Intopix.com ([172.30.30.1]) by IPX-MAIL.Intopix.com ([172.30.30.1]) with mapi id 14.03.0352.000; Mon, 25 Feb 2019 23:29:45 +0100 From: Antonin Descampe To: "Roni Even (A)" CC: "draft-lugan-payload-rtp-jpegxs.authors@ietf.org" , "payload@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [payload] call for adoping RTP Payload Format for ISO/IEC 21122 (JPEG XS) as payload WG milestone Thread-Index: AdS9V+9SVQ2JQjCYQDG3Yx8RvovtYgOtF0rQAFE7PAA= Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2019 22:29:45 +0000 Message-ID: <2EB29206-5ACF-4843-A317-C782A6D34986@intopix.com> References: <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD18CB2897@dggemm526-mbx.china.huawei.com> <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD18CB748C@dggemm526-mbx.china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD18CB748C@dggemm526-mbx.china.huawei.com> Accept-Language: fr-FR, fr-BE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [109.88.89.27] x-tm-as-product-ver: SMEX-11.7.0.1024-8.200.1013-24454.004 x-tm-as-result: No--10.594100-0.000000-31 x-tm-as-user-approved-sender: Yes x-tm-as-user-blocked-sender: No Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2EB292065ACF4843A317C782A6D34986intopixcom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [payload] call for adoping RTP Payload Format for ISO/IEC 21122 (JPEG XS) as payload WG milestone X-BeenThere: payload@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Payloads working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2019 22:29:56 -0000 --_000_2EB292065ACF4843A317C782A6D34986intopixcom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 RGVhciBSb25pLA0KDQpUaGFua3MgZm9yIHlvdXIgZW1haWwgYW5kIGZvciBhZG9wdGluZyBhIG5l dyBtaWxlc3RvbmUgZm9yIFJUUCBwYXlsb2FkIGZvcm1hdCBmb3IgSVNPL0lFQyAyMTEyMi0yIChK 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ESMTP id 0062A13111A; Mon, 25 Feb 2019 14:30:19 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: payload@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.92.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: payload@ietf.org Message-ID: <155113381995.10621.890904646003980978@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2019 14:30:19 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [payload] I-D Action: draft-ietf-payload-rtp-jpegxs-00.txt X-BeenThere: payload@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Payloads working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2019 22:30:20 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Audio/Video Transport Payloads WG of the IETF. Title : RTP Payload Format for ISO/IEC 21122 (JPEG XS) Authors : Sébastien Lugan Gaël Rouvroy Antonin Descampe Thomas Richter Alexandre Willeme Filename : draft-ietf-payload-rtp-jpegxs-00.txt Pages : 20 Date : 2019-02-25 Abstract: This document specifies a Real-Time Transport Protocol (RTP) payload format to be used for transporting JPEG XS (ISO/IEC 21122) encoded video. JPEG XS is a low-latency, lightweight image coding system allowing for an increased resolution and frame rate, while offering visually lossless quality with reduced amount of resources such as power and bandwidth. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-payload-rtp-jpegxs/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-payload-rtp-jpegxs-00 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-payload-rtp-jpegxs-00 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Tue Feb 26 16:26:19 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: payload@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA79C130ED7; Tue, 26 Feb 2019 16:26:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 3 X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, GB_SUMOF=5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=mit.edu Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YMBit4Sq17yk; Tue, 26 Feb 2019 16:26:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from NAM05-CO1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-co1nam05on0727.outbound.protection.outlook.com [IPv6:2a01:111:f400:fe50::727]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6EFBC130EB3; 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ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;ietf.org; dmarc=bestguesspass action=none header.from=mit.edu; Received-SPF: Pass (protection.outlook.com: domain of mit.edu designates 18.9.28.11 as permitted sender) receiver=protection.outlook.com; client-ip=18.9.28.11; helo=outgoing.mit.edu; Received: from outgoing.mit.edu (18.9.28.11) by BY2NAM03FT011.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.152.84.233) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.1643.13 via Frontend Transport; Wed, 27 Feb 2019 00:26:02 +0000 Received: from kduck.mit.edu (24-107-191-124.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com [24.107.191.124]) (authenticated bits=56) (User authenticated as kaduk@ATHENA.MIT.EDU) by outgoing.mit.edu (8.14.7/8.12.4) with ESMTP id x1R0PvCT023206 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 26 Feb 2019 19:25:59 -0500 Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2019 18:25:57 -0600 From: Benjamin Kaduk To: Giridhar Mandyam CC: Magnus Westerlund , The IESG , "roni.even@mail01.huawei.com" , "payload-chairs@ietf.org" , "payload@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20190227002556.GE53396@kduck.mit.edu> References: <155052681367.25946.18116200153523550938.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <0ef384ddaabd4883b77db08a477ab822@NASANEXM01C.na.qualcomm.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; 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Ip=[18.9.28.11]; Helo=[outgoing.mit.edu] X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: HybridOnPrem X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BN8PR01MB5602 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [payload] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-17: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) X-BeenThere: payload@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Audio/Video Transport Payloads working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2019 00:26:11 -0000 On Mon, Feb 25, 2019 at 12:03:16AM +0000, Giridhar Mandyam wrote: > Thanks to Magnus for the partial response, and Benjamin for the careful review. Yes, a big thanks to Magnus -- the explanation was quite helpful! I'll reply to his comments inline (i.e., at the very end of this message). > >> It's a little odd to see so much content in Section 1.1 before we get to requirements notation and defintions/notations. > > I don't know what to make of this comment. Is there a concrete suggestion that you may have in mind? To be clear, this matter is entirely editorial discretion and you should do what you prefer, without giving preference to my input. But I would have taken all the 1.X subsections and put them into a new top-level section that appears between (the current) sections 3.2 and 4; "Conceptual Overview" would be a fine title for such a hypothetical new section. > > I think I'm a bit confused about current best practices for multiplexing, as RFC 3550 Section 5.2 says "separate audio and video streams SHOULD NOT be carried in a single RTP session and demultiplexed based on the payload type or SSRC fields", but we seem to be not only recommending using SSRC for demultiplexing repair packets, but also suggesting that the FEC can cover multiple different audio and/or video streams with different SSRCs. I guess RFC 8108 is supposed to clarify when it's okay to use multiple SSRCs in the same RTP session, so maybe the answer is just "3550 was overly cautious and we don't worry about that anymore". > > I think the confusion lies around audio and video source streams. The repair packets corresponding to bundled protection are not really source streams, which is what the 3550 guidance was addressing. I think 3550 did not contemplate bundled protection. Maybe my question was not phrased well. IIUC, the repair packets can only cover real media source streams that are part of the same RTP session. So in order for both audio and video to be available in the same RTP session as potential input to asingle repair packet stream, the audio and video would need to be together in the same RTP session; presumably that would involve getting demux'd based on payload type or SSRC, which is what I'm reading 3550 as saying to not do. Am I just misunderstanding that the repair inputs must be part of the same RTP session? > > Section 4.2.1 > > > > Version (V) 2 bits: This MUST be set to 2 (binary 10), as this > > specification requires all source RTP packets and all FEC repair > > packets to use RTP version 2. The reason for this restriction is > > the first 2 bits of the FEC header contain other information (R > > and F bits) rather than recovering the RTP version field. > > > > nit: is it better to say that the FEC mechanism does not recover this > > value, rather than talking about how the first 2 bits of the FEC > > header are used for something else? (The FEC header's structure need > > not bear any relation to the 12-byte RTP header, AFAICT.) > > Proposal: remove the sentence starting with "The reason for this restriction ...". > > > > > Payload Type: The (dynamic) payload type for the FEC repair > > packets is determined through out-of-band means. [...] > > > > Is "(e.g., SDP)" applicable here? > > > > Sequence Number (SN): The sequence number follows the standard > > definition provided in [RFC3550]. definition. Therefore it > > must > > > > nit: drop separate "definition." > > > > Good catch. Will drop in revised I-D. > > > multiplex multiple repair streams in an RTP session. The repair > > streams' SSRC's CNAME SHOULD be identical to the CNAME of the > > source RTP stream(s) that this repair stream protects. An FEC > > stream that protects multiple source RTP streams with different > > CNAME's uses the CNAME associated with the entity generating the > > FEC stream or the CNAME of the entity on whose behalf it performs > > the protection operation. In cases when the repair stream covers > > packets from multiple source RTP streams with different CNAME > > values, any of these CNAME values MAY be used. > > > > I'm not sure I'm parsing this properly; the penultimate sentence says > > that the CNAME to use is determined by nature of the entity producing > > the repair stream, but the last sentence says that there is a nondeterministic choice. > > > > Proposed change to last sentence: "in cases when the repair stream covers packets from multiple source RTP stream with difference CNAME values and none of these CNAM values can be associated with the entity generating the FEC stream, then any of these CNAME values MAY be used." That works for me, as does the follow-up suggestion from Ali. > > Section 4.2.2 > > > > Any reason not to include "retransmit" and "fixed block" mnemonics for > > the 'R' and 'F' bits? > > > > Can you explain further? The R/F definitions already include mention of retransmission and fixed FEC L/D. I was thinking that the first sentence could say '(R and F bits, for "retransmit" and "fixed block")' to (in effect) "name" the bits right away. > > Please include a note here that several fields (e.g., P, PT, etc.) in > > the FEC header are not meant to be interpreted directly but are > > instead actual FEC parity data akin to the following "payload". > > (Absent such an indication, the reader could see that these fields are "used to determine" > > values when they appear to contain values directly, and get confused.) > > > > I would suggest adding a forward-reference to Section 6 since that > > describes how the Repair Payload is calculated. > > I am sorry. I do not understand what is meant by "used to determine" values. Can you explain? I was trying to consolidate remarks about 4.2.2, 4.2.2.1 and 4.2.2.2 into a single comment, but it came across badly; sorry for the confusion. The last bullet point of Section 4.2.2 notes that "The P, X, CC, M and PT recovery fields are used to determine the corresponding fields of the recovered packets". Similarly, Figures 12 and 13 both have fields named for "PT recovery", "length recovery", etc., with corresponding descriptions in the main text like "the length recovery (16 bits) field is used to determine the length of the recovered packets" -- these are the "used to determine" text to which I refer. So my concrete suggestion is to add a reference to Section 6.3.2 at the end of that final bullet in Section 4.2.2. I'd consider adding it to the field descriptions in 4.2.2.1 as well, but that might be overkill, so use your judgement. > > Section 4.2.2.2 > > > > Should implementations set bounds on L and D that are smaller than the > > maximum encodable value (255)? > > Yes. This is assumed. Perhaps it's best to state it explicitly rather than leaving an implicit assumption. > > > If L=0, D=0, use the optional payload format parameters for L and D. > > What is the behavior when those payload format parameters were not > > provided? > > > > Optional payload format parameters may be provided in SDP (see Sec. 5.1). Right. But suppose they weren't, and yet the L=0,D=0 packet shows up on the wire. This is clearly an error condition; what's the error handling? > > The L=1 case seems to imply that some full packet retransmission will > > be used; is it worth calling that out as a consequence of such a parameter choice? > > I am not sure that I understand this statement. L=1 does not imply anything about the value of D. I agree with your statement. But, we seem to allow for L to be 1, and in particular for L=1,D=0 (also L=1,D=1). For those combinations of L and D, the "Row FEC" case will in fact be packet retransmission, as a degenerate case. I'm proposing that either this oddity is mentioned explicitly (e.g., "note that when L=1, the Row FEC packets will just be retransmission"), or disallowed by the numerical constraints. Though now that I know better how the multi-SSRC case is handled (per Magnus's comments and my reply thereto), I guess you could use L=1 as part of a multi-SSRC repair and it would not be equivalent to retransmission. So the situation is more complicated than I first thought. Regardless, since the conditions here do allow L=1 as a possibility, I suggest some additional discussion in the text about how it's a bit strange and probably not expected to be used. > > > Section 4.2.2.3 > > > > nit: The "P|X" bits in Figure 15 seem indented by one too many spaces. > > Thanks. Will revise on next I.-D. > > > Section 5.1 (all subsections) > > > > Having the ToP values for interleaved and non-interleaved 1-D > > protection presented in a different order than virtually all of the > > body text (that presents non-interleaved first) is needlessly hard on the reader. > > What would you suggest? Would sub-bullets help? I don't think sub-bullets would make much of a difference. I also don't want to suggest changing the actual protocol values at this late stage, so the choice would seem to be between a fairly drastic "swap sections 1.1.1 and 1.1.2, and similar changes throughougt the body text, 1.1.3, etc.", and leaving it as-is. I expect I know which one you'll choose, though :) > > What is the interaction between rate, repair-window, and the L and D > > values? That is, if we set L and D to be large, and rate to be small, > > can we end up claiming a repair window that is too small to accumulate > > the necessary L*D source packets and compute recovery packets? > > Yes, it is possible. We expect that specific uses of FLEX FEC will bound the appropriate values for repair window, L and D. It is difficult to establish these bounds in this specification, however, since the applications that are currently making use of FLEX FEC are varied (e.g. WebRTC, 3GPP MTSI). We expect these specification to provide concrete guidance on the expected repair windows, L and D, based on the target application. Please do not rely on unstated expectations for the behavior of consumers of this mechanism! I strongly suggest to provide some indication, even a vague and incomplete one, that there are to be interrelations and implementation restrictions on these parameters. > > Section 5.2.1 > > > > o The value for the repair-window parameter depends on the L and D > > values and cannot be chosen arbitrarily. More specifically, L and > > D values determine the lower limit for the repair-window size. > > The upper limit of the repair-window size does not depend on the L > > and D values. > > > > Per my above remark, this consideration seems generally applicable and > > not limited to SDP Offer/Answer. > > This is also covered in Sec. 1.1, which provides the general guidance. An inline note that the repair window "is defined as the time that spans a FEC block", I see now. But this is still in fairly abstract terms; I would have expected to see the note I quoted in my ballot to appear in a top-level Section 5 entry, and not in the subsection specific to SDP O/A. > > o Any unknown option in the offer MUST be ignored and deleted from > > the answer. If FEC is not desired by the receiver, it can be > > deleted from the answer. > > > > This sounds like it is restating an existing normative requirement (in > > which case a reference and descriptive, non-normative, text seems > > appropriate). > > This requirement is specific to SDP O/A. Can you explain further as to why you think there is a different normative requirement? Ali got what I intended, though I was hoping for a reference to the relevant SDP RFC as well as the s/MUST/must/. > > Section 6.2 > > > > o The first 16 bits of the RTP header (16 bits). > > > > Maybe note here that we'll actually ignore the first 2 bits? > > Why? The FEC repair is covering all relevant parts of the first 16 bits of the RTP header. You can only say that the FEC repair is covering all relevant parts because we require a specific RTP version and thus mak the first 2 bits not relevant! To be clear, this is an editorial matter and you are free to ignore me, but my suggested wording is "The first 16 bits of the RTP header (16 bits), though the first two (version) bits will be ignored by the recovery procedure". > > Section 6.3.2 > > > > 2. For the repair packet in T, compute the FEC bit string from the > > first 80 bits of the FEC header. > > > > I'm scratching my head a bit at this. Is this operation something > > other than "take the first 80 bits of the FEC header"? (If not, the > > length and sequence number base seem to be in different places in the > > source packets and FEC bit string, if I'm reading things right.) > > Yes, this is simply the first 80 bits as per the header formats in Sec.'s 4.2.2.1 and 4.2.2.2. The wording as it stands seems to be accurate. Did you have a suggestion in mind? s/compute the FEC bit string from/extract the FEC bit string as/ > > 11. Set the SN field in the new packet to SEQNUM. Skip the next 16 > > bits in the recovered bit string. > > > > To be clear, we're skipping over the xor of the reconstructed length > > field with the seqnum field of the source packets? > > Yes. > > > 13. Take the next 16 bits of the recovered bit string and set the > > new variable Y to whatever unsigned integer this represents > > (assuming network order). Convert Y to host order. Y > > represents the length of the new packet in bytes minus 12 (for > > the fixed RTP header), i.e., the sum of the lengths of all the > > following if present: the CSRC list, header extension, RTP > > payload and RTP padding. > > > > I don't see how this matches up with the bit string construction in > > Section 6.2. > > As per Sec. 6.2, > "The rest of the FEC bit string, which contains everything after > the fixed 12-byte RTP header of the source packet, is written into > the Repair "Payload" following the FEC header, where "Payload" > refers to everything after the fixed 12-byte RTP header, including > extensions, CSRC list, true payloads, and padding." In particular I'm confused about the order between length recovery and TS recovery. In the FEC header (for non-retransmissions), length recovery appears before TS recovery. In Section 6.2, as we extract things from the FEC bit string, we write out the length recovery value into the FEC header, and then (the next bits from the FEC bit string are) the TS recovery value. But here we take the TS field and then the length field from the recovery bit string, which is in the other order. Am I missing some step that causes the order that these fields appear in the bit stream to change? > > Section 6.3.3 > > > > 1. Append Y bytes to the new packet. > > [...] > > 5. Append the recovered bit string (Y octets) to the new packet > > generated in Section 6.3.2. > > > > I think a different verb than "append" should be used in step 1, > > perhaps "allocate Y additional bytes for the new packet", as the text > > as-written has us appending 2*Y bytes, only Y of which have a value specified. > > Agreed. Proposed new wording for steps 1 and 5: > > "1. Allocate Y additional bytes for the new packet generated in Section 6.3.2." > "5. Set the last Y octets in the new packet to the recovered bit string." That works for me; thanks. > > Section 9 > > > > The main > > security considerations for the RTP packet carrying the RTP payload > > format defined within this memo are confidentiality, integrity and > > source authenticity. Confidentiality is achieved by encrypting the > > RTP payload. Integrity of the RTP packets is achieved through a > > suitable cryptographic integrity protection mechanism. [...] > > > > This phrasing of "is achieved by" implies that the mechanisms for > > doing so are defined in this document, but that's not the case. Don't > > we really mean things like "Confidentiality can be provided by > > encrypting the RTP payload"? > > Proposed new wording as recommended: "Confidentiality can be provided by > encrypting the RTP payload." Thanks! > > Given that FLEX FEC enables the protection of multiple source > > streams, there exists the possibility that multiple source buffers > > may be created that may not be used. An attacker could leverage > > unused source buffers to as a means of occupying memory in a FLEX FEC > > endpoint. Moreover the application source data may not be perfectly > > matched with FLEX FEC source partitioning. If this is the case, > > there is a possibility for unprotected source data if, for instance, > > the FLEX FEC implementation discards data that does not fit perfectly > > into its source processing requirements. > > > > I don't think this text quite covers the risks when interacting with > > an adversarial endpoint -- an attacker could try to advertise FEC > > schemes with large D and L and/or large repair windows, that cause the > > receiver to consume a lot of resources buffering packets that may be > > used as repair inputs. Endpoints need to be aware of the risk when > > deciding whether to accept FEC streams, e.g., via SDP Offer/Answer. > > > > Similarly, a network attacker could modify the recovery fields > > corresponding to packet lengths (when integrity protection is not in > > play), to force large allocations on the receiver. It's fairly likely > > that this doesn't even require knowing which source packet(s) will be > > lost, since length is a 16-bit field and the expected input values are > > not likely to have the high bit(s) set. > > > > The need for integrity protection on the SDP Offer/Answer exchange is > > probably sufficiently well-documented elsewhere that we don't need to > > reiterate it here. > > The Section 8 guidance covers scenarios where the use of a given FEC configuration can result in no benefits in performance (or even degradation in performance). If a receiver detects FEC parameters that are inconsistent with the nature of the source data or the transmission conditions, then the receiver could reject the offer (as per Sec. 6 of RFC 3264, "An offered stream MAY be rejected in the answer, for any reason"). However, additional guidance could improve the current text. > > "Given that FLEX FEC enables the protection of multiple source streams, there exists the possibility that multiple source buffers may be created that may not be used. An attacker could leverage unused source buffers to as a means of occupying memory in a FLEX FEC endpoint. ***In addition, an attack against the FEC parameters themselves (e.g. repair window, D or L values) can result in a receiver having to allocate source buffer space that may also lead to excessive consumption of resources.*** Moreover the application source data may not be perfectly matched with FLEX FEC source partitioning. If this is the case, there is a possibility for unprotected source data if, for instance, the FLEX FEC implementation discards data that does not fit perfectly into its source processing requirements. " That's an improvement, thanks. I don't think it covers my penultimate paragraph about a network attacker being able to force bit flips in the recovered packet length field, though, and I do think it's worth documenting that as a risk (when integrity protection is not used). > > -----Original Message----- > From: payload On Behalf Of Magnus Westerlund > Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2019 7:09 AM > To: Benjamin Kaduk ; The IESG > Cc: roni.even@mail01.huawei.com; payload-chairs@ietf.org; payload@ietf.org; draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [payload] Benjamin Kaduk's Discuss on draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-17: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Hi Benjamin, > > I am not one of the authors, but one that have helped beating on this document in the WG, so I think I can answer your questions. I think the authors should check what I say and check the last part of the comments. > > On 2019-02-18 22:53, Benjamin Kaduk wrote: > > Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for > > draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme-17: Discuss > > > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut > > this introductory paragraph, however.) > > > > > > Please refer to > > https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > > > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-payload-flexible-fec-schem > > e/ > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > DISCUSS: > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > I'm confused about some parts of how I'd implement this. > > It's quite possible this is just my error, but I'm including this > > point in the Discuss section in case it's not. This basically relates > > to how multiple recovery packets from a given FEC block get encoded > > and identified on the wire, but also how to populate the source block > > when multiple SSRCs are included. > > > > In short: suppose that I have D=3 and L=2. I should expect 5 repair > > packets for the six source packets in a block; the scheme for > > determining what order to generate them in and what their contents are > > is fairly clear to me. But how do I identify them on the wire? I'm > > assuming that the D and L on the wire are fixed values, since there's > > the possibility to only send zero on the wire and negotiate their > > values out of band. It's a little less clear whether the "SN base" > > fields are expected to be the same for all 5 recovery packets based on > > a given block, but if they do change then I'm not sure how I tell > > whether a given recovery packet is for a row or a column. Is this > > supposed to be using the sequence number from the outer RTP header for > > packet ordering, and the implicit order for row/column FEC packets? > > (It seems that in case of very bad packet loss and dynamic > > L+D, the receiver could then get out of sync as to what the sequence > > L+number > > is that corresponds to the start of a new batch of recovery blocks.) > > So, if one are going to do a 2-D FEC code and have indicated that in the signaling, each repair packet is still either a row or column FEC. So a Row packet for your D=3 and L=2 2-D FEC configurations are going to say: > > Sn base= i, L=2 D=1 > > The rest of the Row packets for this block are going to have: > > Sn base=i+2, L=2 D=1 > > Sn base= i+4, L=2 D=1 > > Then the column packets > > Sn base=i, L=2 D=3 > > Sn base=i+1, L=2 D=3 > > >From a receiver perspective you are not actually not caring about what > block structures the sender uses. You anyway only can store received FEC packet in a receiver buffer for the stipulated time. When a repair packet comes in one checks if that repairs any loss, otherwise stores it in the buffer. > Okay. So some key takeaways here are that the 'L' and 'D' values will be different on the wire for row and column packets even on the same recovery stream. I would strongly suggest adding some text at the end of or after the first pargaraph of section 4.2.2.2, to the effect of: The values of L and D for a given block of recovery data will correspond to the type of recovery in use for that block of data. In particular, for 2-D repair, the (L,D) values will not be constant across all packets for a given SSRC being repaired. Similarly, the L and D values can differ across different blocks of repair data (repairing different SSRCs) in a single packet. I'd also recommend tweaking the text on page 23 about "[no] column FEC will follow"; perhaps "If L>0, D=0, indicates that Row FEC is in use, with no column FEC in use for this SSRC", "If L>0, D=1, indicates that this packet is Row FEC but that column FEC packets are interspersed in ths stream", and "If L>0, D>0, indicates that this packet is column FEC of every L packets in a group of D packets starting at the SN base. Whether or not Row FEC packets will be interspersed cannot be determined from just this packet". For the L>0, D=1 case, I'd also suggest OLD: Hence, FEC = SN, SN+1, SN+2, ... , SN+(L-1), SN+L will be produced for each row. Then FEC = SN, SN+L, SN+2L, ..., SN+(D-1)L will be produced for each column. After all row FEC's have been sent, then the column FEC's will be sent. NEW: Hence, FEC = SN, SN+1, SN+2, ... , SN+(L-1), SN+L will be produced for each row. Then FEC = SN, SN+L, SN+2L, ..., SN+(D-1)L will be produced for each column. Note that the initial SN will be different for all pairs of packets other than the first row/first column packets! After all row FEC's have been sent, then the column FEC's will be sent, though reordering could cause the FECs to appear in a different order at the receiver. But the above are all just suggestions and I do not insist on any specific change. I do, however, remain concerned about the case where L=0,D=0 on the wire and the optional payload format parameters are used to indicate L and D. In that case, it seems impossible to do 2-D FEC, since there is no way to indicate whether a given L=0,D=0 packet is row or column repair. I think that pure 1-D column and pure 1-D row are individually unambiguous, though. Perhaps Section 6.3.1 should disclaim the possibility of 2-D repair for this case? > > I also don't see how, for the case when there are multiple SSRCs, I > > know how many source packets to include from each SSRC in order to > > make up the D x L source block -- since Section 6.2's discussion lumps > > all the "source packets" together into a single set that get mutually > > xor'd, that seems to imply that the encoding is not "do recovery for > > SSRC1, do recovery for SSRC2, ..., concatenate them all". > > Well, for each SSRC one follows the SN base and L and D parameters. This results in a number of packets that the XOR is performed over. I think I overlooked the text "If there are multiple SSRC's protected by the FEC packet, then there will be multiple blocks of data containing an SN base along with L and D fields" on my first read. Or perhaps I also had forgotten that the SSRCs being recovered are indicated as CSRCs in the recovery packet's header. Regardless, I am still not 100% clear on the layout of the repair payload for the multi-SSRC case. E.g., in Figure 13, we see that there are multiple SN base/L/D entries before the payload, which is a single consolidated payload that (presumably) covers all the recovery SSRCs. Your description above makes it sound like each SN base/L/D indicates a set of packets, and the payload is the XOR of all of those sets together (padded if necessary). That is, one could perhaps imagine conceptually doing this in two steps: (1) XOR together the packets indicated by the respective SN base/L/D for each SSRC, and then (2) XOR those results together to combine the N SSRC recovery blocks into a single repair payload. Did I get it right this time? > Does this help? Yes, thank you! Now I am at a point where I can actually ask useful questions instead of just flailing around :) -Benjamin