Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9TNfnkT052345 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 2003 15:41:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.9/Submit) id h9TNfnwe052341 for ietf-pop3ext-bks; Wed, 29 Oct 2003 15:41:49 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sentosa.post1.com (sentosa.post1.com [202.27.17.100]) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with SMTP id h9TNfikT052304 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 2003 15:41:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jseng@pobox.org.sg) Received: (qmail 42733 invoked from network); 30 Oct 2003 00:00:08 -0000 Received: from p5200-ipad75marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp (HELO pobox.org.sg) (220.107.220.200) by sentosa.post1.com with SMTP; 30 Oct 2003 00:00:08 -0000 Message-ID: <3FA04E1E.9070906@pobox.org.sg> Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 07:32:46 +0800 From: James Seng User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, zh-cn, zh-tw, ja, ko MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Crispin CC: Abhijit Menon-Sen , ietf-imaa@imc.org, idn@ops.ietf.org, ietf-822@imc.org, ietf@ietf.org, ietf-pop3ext@imc.org, lemonade@ietf.org, discuss@apps.ietf.org, ietf-imapext@imc.org, ietf-smtp@imc.org Subject: Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) References: <00fd01c39ce8$b6f19fe0$79d52b09@DAVIS1> <014c01c39cf4$5675cd60$79d52b09@DAVIS1> <20031028095243.A1525@lustre.dyn.wiw.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: > I do not believe that this is true for Chinese. AFAIK, Chinese primary > school kids use Latin script with hanyu-pinyin as a stopgap prior to their > mastery of Han script (which takes many years). Nope. Hanyu Pinyin was designed to replace the Han ideograph but it never did. > Note that when I say "recognize Latin script", I mean the ability to > determine that "dog" is a three-letter word that has the letters "d", "o", > and "g", each of which the individual recognizes and can name. This does > not include the ability to recognize that this refers to a domesticated > canine. Based on your reasonings, I think we should all reverted back to numbers, because that is the only universal recongizable set of symbols we have. We have this argument in IDN before and we certainly dont need this again. If you feel we should all stick to Latin, yes, you are entitled to your opinion but please do so in other place, and not here. The group is suppose to work on Internationalization of Email address (identifiers), not debate whether we need it or not. -James Seng Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9TNfVkT052286 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 2003 15:41:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.9/Submit) id h9TNfVF7052279 for ietf-pop3ext-bks; Wed, 29 Oct 2003 15:41:31 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sentosa.post1.com (sentosa.post1.com [202.27.17.100]) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with SMTP id h9TNfQkT052245 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 2003 15:41:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jseng@pobox.org.sg) Received: (qmail 42705 invoked from network); 29 Oct 2003 23:59:48 -0000 Received: from p5200-ipad75marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp (HELO pobox.org.sg) (220.107.220.200) by sentosa.post1.com with SMTP; 29 Oct 2003 23:59:48 -0000 Message-ID: <3FA04CA4.6050409@pobox.org.sg> Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 07:26:28 +0800 From: James Seng User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, zh-cn, zh-tw, ja, ko MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Crispin CC: Mark Davis , Keith Moore , dcrocker@brandenburg.com, paf@cisco.com, ietf-imaa@imc.org, idn@ops.ietf.org, ietf-822@imc.org, ietf@ietf.org, ietf-pop3ext@imc.org, lemonade@ietf.org, discuss@apps.ietf.org, IMAP Extensions WG , ietf-smtp@imc.org, presnick@Qualcomm.Com, hardie@Qualcomm.Com, ned.freed@mrochek.com Subject: Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) References: <00fd01c39ce8$b6f19fe0$79d52b09@DAVIS1> <014c01c39cf4$5675cd60$79d52b09@DAVIS1> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Crispin, You need to get out of US (or Wsshington) more often. -James Seng > I am not convinced that it is possible to use a computer on the Internet > anywhere in the world without at least a basic acquaintance with Latin > script. > > I do not believe many individuals (other than primary school children) are > literate in their native language but are completely illiterate in Latin > script. This does not mean "being able to read or write the English > language"; rather, this simply means knowing the Latin script alphabet. > > Put another way, individuals who are completely illiterate in Latin script > are also likely to be illiterate in their native language script as well. > > No other script on the planet has such international recognition. > > There is undoubtably a *preference* for one's native script; and that > preference should be respected as much as possible. > > -- Mark -- > > http://staff.washington.edu/mrc > Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. > Si vis pacem, para bellum. > > > > > Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9TNIukT050952 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 2003 15:18:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.9/Submit) id h9TNIuUU050951 for ietf-pop3ext-bks; Wed, 29 Oct 2003 15:18:56 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mail3.microsoft.com (mail3.microsoft.com [131.107.3.123]) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9TNIqkT050926; Wed, 29 Oct 2003 15:18:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from michelsu@windows.microsoft.com) Received: from INET-VRS-03.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.5.27]) by mail3.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Wed, 29 Oct 2003 15:18:49 -0800 Received: from 157.54.8.109 by INET-VRS-03.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall NT); Wed, 29 Oct 2003 15:18:49 -0800 Received: from red-imc-01.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.9.102]) by inet-hub-02.redmond.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.0); Wed, 29 Oct 2003 15:18:49 -0800 Received: from win-imc-02.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([157.54.0.84]) by red-imc-01.redmond.corp.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1069); Wed, 29 Oct 2003 15:19:48 -0800 Received: from WIN-MSG-10.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([157.54.12.81]) by win-imc-02.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1069); Wed, 29 Oct 2003 15:18:47 -0800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7097.0 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Subject: RE: [idn] FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 15:18:45 -0800 Message-ID: <84DD35E3DD87D5489AC42A59926DABE9046E700D@WIN-MSG-10.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [idn] FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) thread-index: AcOc5UacENkLjcQgTxGePqP067EdhwBjOJ7A From: "Michel Suignard" To: "James Seng" , =?iso-8859-1?Q?Patrik_F=E4ltstr=F6m?= Cc: , , , , , , , , , "Pete Resnick" , "Ted Hardie" , "Ned Freed" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Oct 2003 23:18:47.0668 (UTC) FILETIME=[014BD340:01C39E73] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id h9TNIqkV050935 Sender: owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: JS>I seen John and Paul proposal but I have not seen Michel. Is there a draft that I can read JS>up? I don't have a proposal. I am listed there as a co-editor of the IRI spec which has a peripheral impact on the IEA (such as extending the URI mailto scheme). Like many I am listening with interest to the points made for or against the two proposals. Michel Suignard Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9TGjSkT028914 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 2003 08:45:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.9/Submit) id h9TGjSgH028913 for ietf-pop3ext-bks; Wed, 29 Oct 2003 08:45:28 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from relay-6m.club-internet.fr (relay-6m.club-internet.fr [194.158.104.45]) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9TGjMkT028887; Wed, 29 Oct 2003 08:45:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jefsey@club-internet.fr) Received: from jfc2.club-internet.fr (f02v-21-20.d0.club-internet.fr [212.195.240.20]) by relay-6m.club-internet.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id A66FC2567A; Wed, 29 Oct 2003 17:45:14 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <6.0.0.22.2.20031029163607.04355ba0@mail.club-internet.fr> X-Sender: jefsey@mail.club-internet.fr X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.0.22 Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 16:50:39 +0100 To: Zefram From: "J-F C. (Jefsey) Morfin" Subject: Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) Cc: Dave Crocker , ietf-imaa@imc.org, idn@ops.ietf.org, ietf-822@imc.org, ietf@ietf.org, ietf-pop3ext@imc.org, lemonade@ietf.org, discuss@apps.ietf.org, ietf-imapext@imc.org, ietf-smtp@imc.org In-Reply-To: <20031028093114.GC20198@fysh.org> References: <4CD48AD0-07EE-11D8-9C47-000A959CF516@cisco.com> <12228881609.20031027074111@brandenburg.com> <20031027105222.4eae54fd.moore@cs.utk.edu> <355752681.20031027161925@brandenburg.com> <20031028093114.GC20198@fysh.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-6A73736C; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Sender: owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: On 10:31 28/10/03, Zefram said: >I think the first task in this area should be to investigate the nature >and degree of desire for non-ASCII local parts. This desire needs to be >weighed against the benefits we derive from writing all local parts in a >small, fixed alphabet (ASCII printables). May I ask which part of the world you come from? This being said only Americans want/are satisfied with "internationalized" (sic) names (the artificial extension of the American character set with most of the American foreign scripting, within an ascii frame). No one really wants multilingual names (a totally internationalized (sic) frame supporting languages and therefore some language oriented rules - at least ni management and user support). The users need vernacular support, that is to be able to freely do in the mail what they use to do elsewhere. I note that for non-American writers "international names" means names that everyone from every nation will understand. It happens to be the ascii character set limited to the DNS used names (they were selected for that reason). jfc Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9T1fFI7016910 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 17:41:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.9/Submit) id h9T1fFrC016909 for ietf-pop3ext-bks; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 17:41:15 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from [63.202.92.152] (adsl-66-125-125-69.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net [66.125.125.69]) (authenticated bits=0) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9T1f6I8016895; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 17:41:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from phoffman@imc.org) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: phoffman@mail.imc.org Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: X-Habeas-SWE-1: winter into spring X-Habeas-SWE-2: brightly anticipated X-Habeas-SWE-3: like Habeas SWE (tm) X-Habeas-SWE-4: Copyright 2002 Habeas (tm) X-Habeas-SWE-5: Sender Warranted Email (SWE) (tm). The sender of this X-Habeas-SWE-6: email in exchange for a license for this Habeas X-Habeas-SWE-7: warrant mark warrants that this is a Habeas Compliant X-Habeas-SWE-8: Message (HCM) and not spam. Please report use of this X-Habeas-SWE-9: mark in spam to . Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 17:41:55 -0800 To: Margaret.Wasserman@nokia.com, , , , , , , , , From: Paul Hoffman / IMC Subject: Location of the IMAA list (was: RE: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA)) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: At 11:54 AM -0500 10/28/03, Margaret.Wasserman@nokia.com wrote: >The BOF description lists imaa@imc.org as the >discussion list, but this discussion is being >cc:ed to ietf-imaa@imc.org. I'd suggest that you >move this discussion to whichever of those lists >is actually correct. It is ietf-imaa@imc.org, although because Patrik sent out the wrong address, I have made sure that both addresses work. An archive of the list, and links to the current versions of the drafts, can be found at . No more messages to all lists: that's what the IMAA list is for. --Paul Hoffman, Director --Internet Mail Consortium Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9T08KI7012943 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 16:08:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.9/Submit) id h9T08KZj012942 for ietf-pop3ext-bks; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 16:08:20 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from hatl0ms21.CORP.COX.COM (lakehearnglobal.coxinc.com [206.157.224.254]) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9T08FI7012920; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 16:08:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu) Received: from catl0ms22.corp.cox.com ([10.62.200.101]) by hatl0ms21.CORP.COX.COM with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Tue, 28 Oct 2003 19:08:13 -0500 Received: from mail pickup service by catl0ms22.corp.cox.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 18:58:56 -0500 Received: from hatl0ms22.CORP.COX.COM ([10.62.201.69]) by catl0ms22.corp.cox.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Tue, 28 Oct 2003 16:35:02 -0500 Received: from bastion2.cox.com ([10.225.2.51]) by hatl0ms22.CORP.COX.COM with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Tue, 28 Oct 2003 16:28:31 -0500 Received: from asgard.ietf.org (asgard.ietf.org [132.151.6.40]) by bastion2.cox.com (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.6) with SMTP id h9SLSRO10130; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 16:28:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from majordomo by asgard.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.14) id 1AEajF-0001VS-2l for ietf-list@asgard.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:46:13 -0500 Received: from ietf.org ([10.27.2.28]) by asgard.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1AEa7u-00033N-AZ for ietf@asgard.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:07:38 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA20519; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:07:26 -0500 (EST) From: Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AEa7s-0005if-00; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:07:36 -0500 Received: from turing-police.cc.vt.edu ([128.173.14.107]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AEa7r-0005iU-00; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:07:35 -0500 Received: from turing-police.cc.vt.edu (IDENT:valdis@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by turing-police.cc.vt.edu (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h9SK7J6P004972; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:07:19 -0500 Message-Id: <200310282007.h9SK7J6P004972@turing-police.cc.vt.edu> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.6.3 04/04/2003 with nmh-1.0.4+dev To: Mark Davis Cc: Mark Crispin , Keith Moore , dcrocker@brandenburg.com, paf@Cisco.COM, ietf-imaa@imc.org, idn@ops.ietf.org, ietf-822@imc.org, ietf@ietf.org, ietf-pop3ext@imc.org, lemonade@ietf.org, discuss@apps.ietf.org, IMAP Extensions WG , ietf-smtp@imc.org, presnick@qualcomm.com, hardie@qualcomm.com, ned.freed@mrochek.com Subject: Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:39:32 PST." <014c01c39cf4$5675cd60$79d52b09@DAVIS1> References: <00fd01c39ce8$b6f19fe0$79d52b09@DAVIS1> <014c01c39cf4$5675cd60$79d52b09@DAVIS1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="==_Exmh_-1503687178P"; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:07:19 -0500 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Oct 2003 21:28:31.0955 (UTC) FILETIME=[6F9C6230:01C39D9A] Sender: owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: --==_Exmh_-1503687178P Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:39:32 PST, Mark Davis said: > email addresses. Mr. Tanaka can have one with Latin letters and one wit= h > Japanese (e.g. =E3=83=A0=E3=83=AB=E3=82=AF@=E3=82=AB=E3=82=AF.=E3=83=AF= =E3=82=B7=E3=83=B3=E3=82=B0=E3=83=88=E3=83=B3.=E3=82=A8=E3=83=87=E3=82=A5= ). This gets interesting in the context of a "reply all". Apologies for breaking the UTF-8 in the quote, but it's illustrative - if= the breakage had been in the To/Cc lines, things would have broken even worse= unless whatever scheme we end up using is ASCII-transparent. --==_Exmh_-1503687178P Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 iD8DBQE/nsx3cC3lWbTT17ARAlD1AKC74t7EwonvMVVb4YcOTjs6cE9mCwCfX9xR fx4FhsH1KZDlHM6R8Ip+I+A= =61XB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --==_Exmh_-1503687178P-- Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9SNH8I7011143 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:17:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.9/Submit) id h9SNH8vd011142 for ietf-pop3ext-bks; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:17:08 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from hatl0ms21.CORP.COX.COM (lakehearnglobal.coxinc.com [206.157.224.254]) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9SNH5I7011103; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:17:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from klensin@jck.com) Received: from CATL0MS81.corp.cox.com ([10.62.200.231]) by hatl0ms21.CORP.COX.COM with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Tue, 28 Oct 2003 18:16:29 -0500 Received: from mail pickup service by CATL0MS81.corp.cox.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 18:16:28 -0500 Received: from hatl0ms23.corp.cox.com ([10.64.200.56]) by catl0ms23.corp.cox.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:52:19 -0500 Received: from bastion2.cox.com ([10.225.2.51]) by hatl0ms23.corp.cox.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:37:56 -0500 Received: from asgard.ietf.org (asgard.ietf.org [132.151.6.40]) by bastion2.cox.com (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.6) with SMTP id h9SKbmv16600; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:37:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from majordomo by asgard.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.14) id 1AEZlm-0004nU-3B for ietf-list@asgard.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 14:44:46 -0500 Received: from ietf.org ([10.27.2.28]) by asgard.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.14) id 1AEXlX-00008u-Kd for ietf@asgard.ietf.org; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 12:36:23 -0500 Received: from ietf-mx (ietf-mx.ietf.org [132.151.6.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id MAA11141; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 12:36:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from ietf-mx ([132.151.6.1]) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AEXlV-0002Hm-00; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 12:36:22 -0500 Received: from ns.jck.com ([209.187.148.211] helo=bs.jck.com) by ietf-mx with esmtp (Exim 4.12) id 1AEXlV-0002Hi-00; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 12:36:21 -0500 Received: from bs.jck.com ([209.187.148.211] helo=localhost) by bs.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 1AEXlK-000NIP-00; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 12:36:11 -0500 Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 12:36:07 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: Marc Blanchet , Mark Davis , Mark Crispin , Abhijit Menon-Sen cc: "ietf-imaa@imc.org" , "idn@ops.ietf.org" , "ietf-822@imc.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" , "ietf-pop3ext@imc.org" , "lemonade@ietf.org" , "discuss@apps.ietf.org" , "ietf-imapext@imc.org" , "ietf-smtp@imc.org" Subject: Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) Message-ID: <12344770.1067344567@KLENSIN-TP> In-Reply-To: <280960000.1067357574@classic.viagenie.qc.ca> References: <00fd01c39ce8$b6f19fe0$79d52b09@DAVIS1> <014c01c39cf4$5675cd60$79d52b09@DAVIS1> <20031028095243.A1525@lustre.dyn.wiw.org> <00a001c39d65$b23177f0$7900a8c0@DAVIS1> <280960000.1067357574@classic.viagenie.qc.ca> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.0.3 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Oct 2003 20:37:57.0507 (UTC) FILETIME=[5EF05D30:01C39D93] Sender: owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: --On Tuesday, October 28, 2003 11:12 -0500 Marc Blanchet wrote: > it appears to me that this thread is not very different from > the idn considerations on usage of idn in the world. So what > is really new in this discussion? See the draft. Quick answer: DNS interfaces really exist at the protocol level, and a large part of the hypothesis behind IDNA was that it would be possible, after we had enough implementations, to prevent an end-user from ever seeing an encoded domain name. That story just doesn't hold for a special encoding-based (aka MUA-only) email local part implementation, and maybe not for email generally. For example, under current rules, an MTA is required to stuff the name it actually sees in HELO/EHLO and the MAIL command into various headers. If it is expected to notice that they have special encodings and decodes them, we've gone rather far into "the infrastructure is involved", even if the actual on-the-wire transport is not impacted. If it doesn't do that, the encodings --both the IDNA domain parts and the special mail encoding-- are going to be in the user's face, in the most literal sense of that term. The similarity of that situation to the early IDN discussions is the importance of the "what problem are you solving" question. And it is very clear to me that, for email addresses, the answer has got to "user sees their own characters in their email addresses and the email addresses of those whose languages they speak/ recognize. Users typically don't actually see envelopes. But seeing, e.g., different forms/codings of an address in the header "From:" field than appears in "Return-path:" or than appears in a signature line in the message body, is going to create real unhappiness. Similarly as has been pointed out in another context, seeing an address in different from when it appears in a header than when it (and that header) are encapsulated in a message/?? body part is just not going to amuse any user to whom we've said "ok, now you have i18n strings, enjoy your new found local language capabilities". And I guess that tells you what I think the problem is that we need to solve. YMMD. john Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9SK7fI7002519 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 12:07:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.9/Submit) id h9SK7fu9002518 for ietf-pop3ext-bks; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 12:07:41 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from turing-police.cc.vt.edu (turing-police.cc.vt.edu [128.173.14.107]) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9SK7bI7002497; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 12:07:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu) Received: from turing-police.cc.vt.edu (IDENT:valdis@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by turing-police.cc.vt.edu (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h9SK7J6P004972; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:07:19 -0500 Message-Id: <200310282007.h9SK7J6P004972@turing-police.cc.vt.edu> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.6.3 04/04/2003 with nmh-1.0.4+dev To: Mark Davis Cc: Mark Crispin , Keith Moore , dcrocker@brandenburg.com, paf@Cisco.COM, ietf-imaa@imc.org, idn@ops.ietf.org, ietf-822@imc.org, ietf@ietf.org, ietf-pop3ext@imc.org, lemonade@ietf.org, discuss@apps.ietf.org, IMAP Extensions WG , ietf-smtp@imc.org, presnick@Qualcomm.Com, hardie@Qualcomm.Com, ned.freed@mrochek.com Subject: Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:39:32 PST." <014c01c39cf4$5675cd60$79d52b09@DAVIS1> From: Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu References: <00fd01c39ce8$b6f19fe0$79d52b09@DAVIS1> <014c01c39cf4$5675cd60$79d52b09@DAVIS1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="==_Exmh_-1503687178P"; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:07:19 -0500 Sender: owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: --==_Exmh_-1503687178P Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:39:32 PST, Mark Davis said: > email addresses. Mr. Tanaka can have one with Latin letters and one wit= h > Japanese (e.g. =E3=83=A0=E3=83=AB=E3=82=AF@=E3=82=AB=E3=82=AF.=E3=83=AF= =E3=82=B7=E3=83=B3=E3=82=B0=E3=83=88=E3=83=B3.=E3=82=A8=E3=83=87=E3=82=A5= ). This gets interesting in the context of a "reply all". Apologies for breaking the UTF-8 in the quote, but it's illustrative - if= the breakage had been in the To/Cc lines, things would have broken even worse= unless whatever scheme we end up using is ASCII-transparent. --==_Exmh_-1503687178P Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Exmh version 2.5 07/13/2001 iD8DBQE/nsx3cC3lWbTT17ARAlD1AKC74t7EwonvMVVb4YcOTjs6cE9mCwCfX9xR fx4FhsH1KZDlHM6R8Ip+I+A= =61XB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --==_Exmh_-1503687178P-- Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9SHaMI7096282 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 09:36:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.9/Submit) id h9SHaMMd096281 for ietf-pop3ext-bks; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 09:36:22 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from bs.jck.com (ns.jck.com [209.187.148.211]) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9SHaII7096263; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 09:36:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from klensin@jck.com) Received: from bs.jck.com ([209.187.148.211] helo=localhost) by bs.jck.com with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 1AEXlK-000NIP-00; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 12:36:11 -0500 Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 12:36:07 -0500 From: John C Klensin To: Marc Blanchet , Mark Davis , Mark Crispin , Abhijit Menon-Sen cc: "ietf-imaa@imc.org" , "idn@ops.ietf.org" , "ietf-822@imc.org" , "ietf@ietf.org" , "ietf-pop3ext@imc.org" , "lemonade@ietf.org" , "discuss@apps.ietf.org" , "ietf-imapext@imc.org" , "ietf-smtp@imc.org" Subject: Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) Message-ID: <12344770.1067344567@KLENSIN-TP> In-Reply-To: <280960000.1067357574@classic.viagenie.qc.ca> References: <00fd01c39ce8$b6f19fe0$79d52b09@DAVIS1> <014c01c39cf4$5675cd60$79d52b09@DAVIS1> <20031028095243.A1525@lustre.dyn.wiw.org> <00a001c39d65$b23177f0$7900a8c0@DAVIS1> <280960000.1067357574@classic.viagenie.qc.ca> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.0.3 (Win32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: --On Tuesday, October 28, 2003 11:12 -0500 Marc Blanchet wrote: > it appears to me that this thread is not very different from > the idn considerations on usage of idn in the world. So what > is really new in this discussion? See the draft. Quick answer: DNS interfaces really exist at the protocol level, and a large part of the hypothesis behind IDNA was that it would be possible, after we had enough implementations, to prevent an end-user from ever seeing an encoded domain name. That story just doesn't hold for a special encoding-based (aka MUA-only) email local part implementation, and maybe not for email generally. For example, under current rules, an MTA is required to stuff the name it actually sees in HELO/EHLO and the MAIL command into various headers. If it is expected to notice that they have special encodings and decodes them, we've gone rather far into "the infrastructure is involved", even if the actual on-the-wire transport is not impacted. If it doesn't do that, the encodings --both the IDNA domain parts and the special mail encoding-- are going to be in the user's face, in the most literal sense of that term. The similarity of that situation to the early IDN discussions is the importance of the "what problem are you solving" question. And it is very clear to me that, for email addresses, the answer has got to "user sees their own characters in their email addresses and the email addresses of those whose languages they speak/ recognize. Users typically don't actually see envelopes. But seeing, e.g., different forms/codings of an address in the header "From:" field than appears in "Return-path:" or than appears in a signature line in the message body, is going to create real unhappiness. Similarly as has been pointed out in another context, seeing an address in different from when it appears in a header than when it (and that header) are encapsulated in a message/?? body part is just not going to amuse any user to whom we've said "ok, now you have i18n strings, enjoy your new found local language capabilities". And I guess that tells you what I think the problem is that we need to solve. YMMD. john Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9SGMhI7092035 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 08:22:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.9/Submit) id h9SGMhPg092032 for ietf-pop3ext-bks; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 08:22:43 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from w1309.hostcentric.net (w1309.hostcentric.net [66.40.78.254]) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with SMTP id h9SGMcI7092004 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 08:22:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark.davis@jtcsv.com) Received: (qmail 2789 invoked by alias); 28 Oct 2003 16:22:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO DAVIS1) (12.235.201.242) by 0 with SMTP; 28 Oct 2003 16:22:38 -0000 Message-ID: <00fb01c39d6f$b46cdd70$7900a8c0@DAVIS1> From: "Mark Davis" To: "Marc Blanchet" , "Mark Crispin" , "Abhijit Menon-Sen" Cc: , , , , , , , , References: <00fd01c39ce8$b6f19fe0$79d52b09@DAVIS1> <014c01c39cf4$5675cd60$79d52b09@DAVIS1> <20031028095243.A1525@lustre.dyn.wiw.org> <00a001c39d65$b23177f0$7900a8c0@DAVIS1> <280960000.1067357574@classic.viagenie.qc.ca> Subject: Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 08:22:37 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: I wouldn't have thought so either, but at least some people questioned the need for non-Latin characters, and went so far as to exclude them from a proposed problem statement: > ... There is a growing need to use additional > characters, specifically Latin characters with diacriticals and non-Latin > characters, in email addresses to better serve the needs of the > multi-national Internet community... Mark __________________________________ http://www.macchiato.com ► शिष्यादिच्छेत्पराजयम् ◄ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marc Blanchet" To: "Mark Davis" ; "Mark Crispin" ; "Abhijit Menon-Sen" Cc: ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; Sent: Tue, 2003 Oct 28 08:12 Subject: Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) > > it appears to me that this thread is not very different from the idn > considerations on usage of idn in the world. So what is really new in this > discussion? > > Marc. > > -- Tuesday, October 28, 2003 07:10:59 -0800 Mark Davis > wrote/a ecrit: > > >> > (I agree that it's currently nearly impossible to use computers if one > >> > isn't familiar with the Latin script, of course.) > >> > >> Which probably makes the rest of this discussion academic, unless we're > >> going to undertake solving *that* problem for Microsoft and the various > >> UNIX/Linux vendors... > > > > It is currently impossible to use the Internet without knowing the Latin > > script. However, the goal of most well-designed client software and > > operating systems is to permit the user to work entirely within their > > native language, with a fully localized system. This is reaching to India > > and other countries; Microsoft has introduced fully localized versions of > > Indic Windows just recently, and Linux vendors are hard at work to > > produce fully localized versions of their software. > > > > Email and Web addresses are the big remaining holdouts for most people. > > People should not be forced to use a script that they are unfamiliar > > with, just to use email addresses and sites in their own countries. Even > > if they are familiar with the Latin script, it is very often a very bad > > match for their languages, making it very difficult to figure out how > > native words would be spelled in it. > > > > Mark > > > > > > ------------------------------------------ > Marc Blanchet > Hexago > tel: +1-418-266-5533x225 > ------------------------------------------ > http://www.freenet6.net: IPv6 connectivity > ------------------------------------------ > Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9SGEpI7091349 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 08:14:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.9/Submit) id h9SGEpZK091348 for ietf-pop3ext-bks; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 08:14:51 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from panoramix.hexago.com ([209.71.226.3]) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9SGEjI7091273; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 08:14:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Marc.Blanchet@viagenie.qc.ca) Received: from localhost (retro.viagenie.qc.ca [IPv6:3ffe:b00:c18:3::22]) (authenticated bits=0) by panoramix.hexago.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9SGD66r006992; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 11:13:14 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 11:12:54 -0500 From: Marc Blanchet To: Mark Davis , Mark Crispin , Abhijit Menon-Sen cc: ietf-imaa@imc.org, idn@ops.ietf.org, ietf-822@imc.org, ietf@ietf.org, ietf-pop3ext@imc.org, lemonade@ietf.org, discuss@apps.ietf.org, ietf-imapext@imc.org, ietf-smtp@imc.org Subject: Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) Message-ID: <280960000.1067357574@classic.viagenie.qc.ca> In-Reply-To: <00a001c39d65$b23177f0$7900a8c0@DAVIS1> References: <00fd01c39ce8$b6f19fe0$79d52b09@DAVIS1> <014c01c39cf4$5675cd60$79d52b09@DAVIS1> <20031028095243.A1525@lustre.dyn.wiw.org> <00a001c39d65$b23177f0$7900a8c0@DAVIS1> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.0b9 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: it appears to me that this thread is not very different from the idn considerations on usage of idn in the world. So what is really new in this discussion? Marc. -- Tuesday, October 28, 2003 07:10:59 -0800 Mark Davis wrote/a ecrit: >> > (I agree that it's currently nearly impossible to use computers if one >> > isn't familiar with the Latin script, of course.) >> >> Which probably makes the rest of this discussion academic, unless we're >> going to undertake solving *that* problem for Microsoft and the various >> UNIX/Linux vendors... > > It is currently impossible to use the Internet without knowing the Latin > script. However, the goal of most well-designed client software and > operating systems is to permit the user to work entirely within their > native language, with a fully localized system. This is reaching to India > and other countries; Microsoft has introduced fully localized versions of > Indic Windows just recently, and Linux vendors are hard at work to > produce fully localized versions of their software. > > Email and Web addresses are the big remaining holdouts for most people. > People should not be forced to use a script that they are unfamiliar > with, just to use email addresses and sites in their own countries. Even > if they are familiar with the Latin script, it is very often a very bad > match for their languages, making it very difficult to figure out how > native words would be spelled in it. > > Mark > ------------------------------------------ Marc Blanchet Hexago tel: +1-418-266-5533x225 ------------------------------------------ http://www.freenet6.net: IPv6 connectivity ------------------------------------------ Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9SFB5I7086583 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 07:11:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.9/Submit) id h9SFB5bR086577 for ietf-pop3ext-bks; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 07:11:05 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from w1309.hostcentric.net (w1309.hostcentric.net [66.40.78.254]) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with SMTP id h9SFB0I7086536 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 07:11:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark.davis@jtcsv.com) Received: (qmail 31822 invoked by alias); 28 Oct 2003 15:10:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO DAVIS1) (12.235.201.242) by 0 with SMTP; 28 Oct 2003 15:10:59 -0000 Message-ID: <00a001c39d65$b23177f0$7900a8c0@DAVIS1> From: "Mark Davis" To: "Mark Crispin" , "Abhijit Menon-Sen" Cc: , , , , , , , , References: <00fd01c39ce8$b6f19fe0$79d52b09@DAVIS1> <014c01c39cf4$5675cd60$79d52b09@DAVIS1> <20031028095243.A1525@lustre.dyn.wiw.org> Subject: Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 07:10:59 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: > > (I agree that it's currently nearly impossible to use computers if one > > isn't familiar with the Latin script, of course.) > > Which probably makes the rest of this discussion academic, unless we're > going to undertake solving *that* problem for Microsoft and the various > UNIX/Linux vendors... It is currently impossible to use the Internet without knowing the Latin script. However, the goal of most well-designed client software and operating systems is to permit the user to work entirely within their native language, with a fully localized system. This is reaching to India and other countries; Microsoft has introduced fully localized versions of Indic Windows just recently, and Linux vendors are hard at work to produce fully localized versions of their software. Email and Web addresses are the big remaining holdouts for most people. People should not be forced to use a script that they are unfamiliar with, just to use email addresses and sites in their own countries. Even if they are familiar with the Latin script, it is very often a very bad match for their languages, making it very difficult to figure out how native words would be spelled in it. Mark Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9SEsoI7085638 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 06:54:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.9/Submit) id h9SEsom4085634 for ietf-pop3ext-bks; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 06:54:50 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from w1309.hostcentric.net (w1309.hostcentric.net [66.40.78.254]) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with SMTP id h9SEskI7085606 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 06:54:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark.davis@jtcsv.com) Received: (qmail 23826 invoked by alias); 28 Oct 2003 14:54:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO DAVIS1) (12.235.201.242) by 0 with SMTP; 28 Oct 2003 14:54:45 -0000 Message-ID: <006b01c39d63$6d928d70$7900a8c0@DAVIS1> From: "Mark Davis" To: "Stephane Bortzmeyer" Cc: "Mark Crispin" , "Keith Moore" , , , , , , , , , , "IMAP Extensions WG" , , , , References: <00fd01c39ce8$b6f19fe0$79d52b09@DAVIS1> <014c01c39cf4$5675cd60$79d52b09@DAVIS1> <20031028085023.GB6617@nic.fr> Subject: Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 06:54:45 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0068_01C39D20.5EDF9090" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0068_01C39D20.5EDF9090 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sigh. I used "Greek" in an analogy because I was hoping that some of the = Latin-only folks out there would at least recognize the name of one = other script. But how comforable would you really be, if = =D9=8A=D9=8F=D9=8F =D9=88=D9=90=D8=B1=D9=90 = =D9=81=D9=8F=D8=B1=D8=B3=D9=90=D8=AF =D8=AA=D9=8F = =D8=B1=D9=8E=D9=90=D8=AF =D9=8E=D9=86 = =D9=90=D9=86=D8=AA=D9=90=D8=B1=D9=90=D9=84=D9=8A = =D8=AF=D9=90=D9=81=D9=81=D9=90=D8=B1=D9=90=D9=86=D8=AA = =D8=B3=D9=83=D8=B1=D9=90=D9=BE=D8=AA=D8=8C = =D8=B3=D9=90=D9=85=D9=BE=D9=84=D9=8A =D8=AA=D9=8F = =D9=8F=D9=86=D8=AF=D9=90=D8=B1=D8=B3=D8=AA=D9=8E=D9=86=D8=AF = =D9=90=D9=85=D9=8E=D9=90=D9=84 = =D9=8E=D8=AF=D8=AF=D8=B1=D9=90=D8=B3=D8=B3=D9=90=D8=B3=D8=8C = =D9=8E=D9=86=D8=AF =D9=8E =D8=B3=D9=83=D8=B1=D9=90=D9=BE=D8=AA = =D8=AA=D9=87=D9=8E=D8=AA =D9=83=D9=8F=D9=8F=D9=84=D8=AF = =D9=8F=D9=86=D9=84=D9=8A = =D9=BE=D9=8E=D8=B1=D8=AA=D9=8E=D9=90=D9=84=D9=84=D9=8A = =D8=B1=D9=90=D9=81=D9=84=D9=90=D9=83=D8=AA =D8=AA=D9=87=D9=90 = =D8=B1=D9=8E=D9=90=D9=84 = =D8=B3=D9=BE=D9=90=D9=84=D9=84=D9=90=D9=86=DA=AF =D9=8F=D9=81 = =D9=8A=D9=8F=D9=8F=D8=B1 =D9=88=D9=8F=D8=B1=D8=AF=D8=B3? Mark __________________________________ =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Stephane Bortzmeyer" To: "Mark Davis" Cc: "Mark Crispin" ; "Keith Moore" = ; ; ; = ; ; ; = ; ; ; = ; "IMAP Extensions WG" ; = ; ; ; = Sent: Tue, 2003 Oct 28 00:50 Subject: Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses = (IEA) > On Mon, Oct 27, 2003 at 05:39:32PM -0800, > Mark Davis wrote=20 > a message of 76 lines which said: >=20 > > We should remember that for a great many people in the world, Latin = letters are > > quite unnatural; it'd be a bit like if we had to use Greek letters = in all email > > addresses.=20 >=20 > It would be a bit like if we had to use Greek letters in mathematics > :-) >=20 > ------=_NextPart_000_0068_01C39D20.5EDF9090 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =EF=BB=BF
Sigh. I used "Greek" in an analogy = because I=20 was hoping that some of the Latin-only folks out there would at least=20 recognize the name of one other script. But how comforable = would you=20 really be, if =D9=8A=D9=8F=D9=8F =D9=88=D9=90=D8=B1=D9=90 = =D9=81=D9=8F=D8=B1=D8=B3=D9=90=D8=AF =D8=AA=D9=8F = =D8=B1=D9=8E=D9=90=D8=AF =D9=8E=D9=86 = =D9=90=D9=86=D8=AA=D9=90=D8=B1=D9=90=D9=84=D9=8A = =D8=AF=D9=90=D9=81=D9=81=D9=90=D8=B1=D9=90=D9=86=D8=AA = =D8=B3=D9=83=D8=B1=D9=90=D9=BE=D8=AA=D8=8C = =D8=B3=D9=90=D9=85=D9=BE=D9=84=D9=8A =D8=AA=D9=8F=20 =D9=8F=D9=86=D8=AF=D9=90=D8=B1=D8=B3=D8=AA=D9=8E=D9=86=D8=AF = =D9=90=D9=85=D9=8E=D9=90=D9=84 = =D9=8E=D8=AF=D8=AF=D8=B1=D9=90=D8=B3=D8=B3=D9=90=D8=B3=D8=8C = =D9=8E=D9=86=D8=AF =D9=8E =D8=B3=D9=83=D8=B1=D9=90=D9=BE=D8=AA = =D8=AA=D9=87=D9=8E=D8=AA =D9=83=D9=8F=D9=8F=D9=84=D8=AF = =D9=8F=D9=86=D9=84=D9=8A = =D9=BE=D9=8E=D8=B1=D8=AA=D9=8E=D9=90=D9=84=D9=84=D9=8A = =D8=B1=D9=90=D9=81=D9=84=D9=90=D9=83=D8=AA =D8=AA=D9=87=D9=90=20 =D8=B1=D9=8E=D9=90=D9=84 = =D8=B3=D9=BE=D9=90=D9=84=D9=84=D9=90=D9=86=DA=AF =D9=8F=D9=81 = =D9=8A=D9=8F=D9=8F=D8=B1 =D9=88=D9=8F=D8=B1=D8=AF=D8=B3?

Mark
__________________________________

 <= /DIV>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephane Bortzmeyer" <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>
To: "Mark Davis" <mark.davis@jtcsv.com>
Cc: "Mark Crispin" <MRC@CAC.Washington.EDU>; "Keith = Moore"=20 <moore@cs.utk.edu>; <dcrocker@brandenburg.com>; = <paf@cisco.com>; <ietf-imaa@imc.org>; <idn@ops.ietf.org>; <ietf-822@imc.org>; <ietf@ietf.org>; <ietf-pop3ext@imc.org>; = <lemonade@ietf.org>; <discuss@apps.ietf.org>; "IMAP = Extensions WG"=20 <ietf-imapext@imc.org>; = <ietf-smtp@imc.org>; <presnick@qualcomm.com>; = <hardie@qualcomm.com>; = <ned.freed@mrochek.com>
Sent: Tue, 2003 Oct 28 00:50
Subject: Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized = Email=20 Addresses (IEA)

> On Mon, Oct 27, = 2003 at=20 05:39:32PM -0800,
>  Mark Davis <mark.davis@jtcsv.com> wrote =
>  a=20 message of 76 lines which said:
>
> > We should remember = that=20 for a great many people in the world, Latin letters are
> > = quite=20 unnatural; it'd be a bit like if we had to use Greek letters in all=20 email
> > addresses.
>
> It would be a bit like = if we had=20 to use Greek letters in mathematics
> :-)
>
>=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0068_01C39D20.5EDF9090-- Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9SEiiI7084736 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 06:44:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.9/Submit) id h9SEiihY084735 for ietf-pop3ext-bks; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 06:44:44 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from palrel11.hp.com (palrel11.hp.com [156.153.255.246]) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9SEieI7084717; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 06:44:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mganesh@india.hp.com) Received: from iconsrv5.india.hp.com (iconsrv5.india.hp.com [15.42.229.13]) by palrel11.hp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F11301C0703B; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 06:43:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from nt23060 (nt23060.india.hp.com [15.42.230.60]) by iconsrv5.india.hp.com (8.9.3 (PHNE_28810)/8.9.3 SMKit7.02) with ESMTP id UAA23203; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 20:12:31 +0530 (IST) From: "Madan Ganesh Velayudham" To: "'Mark Davis'" , "'Mark Crispin'" , "'Keith Moore'" Cc: , , , , , Subject: RE: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 20:13:42 +0530 Organization: Hewlett-Packard STSD Message-ID: <000101c39d61$e38f3e30$3ce62a0f@nt23060> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4024 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <00fd01c39ce8$b6f19fe0$79d52b09@DAVIS1> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id h9SEieI8084718 Sender: owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: > I'm curious: why do you think that everyone would be > satisfied with Latin characters only, and no non-Latin characters? > > Mark > __________________________________ > http://www.macchiato.com > ► शिष्यादिच्छेत्पराजयम् ◄ Yes, I also agree. Especially in India, we have more than 10 Languages ( Hindi, Tamil, Telugu, Kannada, Malayalam, etc., ) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9SABuI7071612 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 02:11:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.9/Submit) id h9SABuSg071611 for ietf-pop3ext-bks; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 02:11:56 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from melkebalanse.gulbrandsen.priv.no (melkebalanse.gulbrandsen.priv.no [217.19.171.131]) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9SABlI7071585; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 02:11:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from arnt@gulbrandsen.priv.no) Message-Id: From: Arnt Gulbrandsen To: Mark Crispin Subject: Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) Cc: ietf@ietf.org, lemonade@ietf.org, IETF RFC-822 list , IMAA list , IMAP Extensions WG , ietf-pop3ext@imc.org, ietf-smtp@imc.org, Abhijit Menon-Sen , discuss@apps.ietf.org, IETF/IDN WG References: <00fd01c39ce8$b6f19fe0$79d52b09@DAVIS1> <014c01c39cf4$5675cd60$79d52b09@DAVIS1> <20031028095243.A1525@lustre.dyn.wiw.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 11:15:17 +0100 Sender: owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Mark Crispin writes: > On Tue, 28 Oct 2003, Abhijit Menon-Sen wrote: >> (I agree that it's currently nearly impossible to use computers if >> one isn't familiar with the Latin script, of course.) > > Which probably makes the rest of this discussion academic, unless > we're going to undertake solving *that* problem for Microsoft and the > various UNIX/Linux vendors... You're not appreciating the full complexity of the problem. ;) Not only should the email standards permit MUAs and MTAs of the year 2020 to solve the problem Abhijit mentions, but they should even permit such future programs to interoperate with latinate ones of the present and near future. And if it's too hard for latinate MUAs to implement the IEA standard, that won't happen. --Arnt Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9S9dtI7070484 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 01:39:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.9/Submit) id h9S9dtim070483 for ietf-pop3ext-bks; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 01:39:55 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from joy.songbird.com (joy.songbird.com [208.184.79.7]) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9S9drI7070465; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 01:39:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dhc@dcrocker.net) Received: from bbprime (jay.songbird.com [208.184.79.253]) by joy.songbird.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h9S9jrf12762; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 01:45:54 -0800 Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 01:13:50 -0800 From: Dave Crocker X-Mailer: The Bat! (v2.00.22) Reply-To: dcrocker@brandenburg.com Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <2337816887.20031028011350@brandenburg.com> To: Pete Resnick CC: ietf-imaa@imc.org, idn@ops.ietf.org, ietf-822@imc.org, ietf@ietf.org, ietf-pop3ext@imc.org, , , , , Dave Crocker Subject: Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) In-Reply-To: References: <4CD48AD0-07EE-11D8-9C47-000A959CF516@cisco.com> <12228881609.20031027074111@brandenburg.com> <20031027105222.4eae54fd.moore@cs.utk.edu> <355752681.20031027161925@brandenburg.com> <16285.48493.496028.516294@moriarty.gnomon.org.uk> <14814332829.20031027184226@brandenburg.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Pete, >>RB> Restricting the disucssion to local-parts runs the risk of excluding >>RB> other potentially relevent issues. PR> I agree. Limiting discussion at this point to local-part does not PR> take into account some of the possibilities. That was exactly the intent of the text. We have already seen how nicely the text served to bring into pretty stark relief one bit of expectation from one of the proposals. It is only fitting to have it serve the same purpose for another one. IETF BOF time is pretty lousy for an open-ended chat. Having specifications to chat about is only marginally better than not having them. What makes the real difference is having serious focus to the meeting. If we go into this meeting without even having a clear sense of the scope of the problem to be tackled, then the chance of having a productive meeting is pretty small. At the moment, it appears that the focus of the meeting is likely to be: Shall we break existing Internet mail or shall we lay an enhancement on top of it that preserves the installed base. (I'm sure that everyone else who was present at the pre-MIME/ESMTP discussions is really looking forward to repeating the experience.) d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking Sunnyvale, CA USA Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9S8pEI7057424 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 00:51:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.9/Submit) id h9S8pEZP057422 for ietf-pop3ext-bks; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 00:51:14 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from maya20.nic.fr (maya20.nic.fr [192.134.4.152]) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9S8pCI7057400; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 00:51:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bortzmeyer@nic.fr) Received: from vespucci.nic.fr (postfix@vespucci.nic.fr [192.134.4.68]) by maya20.nic.fr (8.12.4/8.12.4) with ESMTP id h9S8oNQW1526872; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 09:50:23 +0100 (CET) Received: by vespucci.nic.fr (Postfix, from userid 1055) id 5FF63FF47; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 09:50:23 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 09:50:23 +0100 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Mark Davis Cc: Mark Crispin , Keith Moore , dcrocker@brandenburg.com, paf@cisco.com, ietf-imaa@imc.org, idn@ops.ietf.org, ietf-822@imc.org, ietf@ietf.org, ietf-pop3ext@imc.org, lemonade@ietf.org, discuss@apps.ietf.org, IMAP Extensions WG , ietf-smtp@imc.org, presnick@qualcomm.com, hardie@qualcomm.com, ned.freed@mrochek.com Subject: Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) Message-ID: <20031028085023.GB6617@nic.fr> References: <00fd01c39ce8$b6f19fe0$79d52b09@DAVIS1> <014c01c39cf4$5675cd60$79d52b09@DAVIS1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <014c01c39cf4$5675cd60$79d52b09@DAVIS1> X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux testing/unstable X-Kernel: Linux 2.4.21-3-686 i686 Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i Sender: owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: On Mon, Oct 27, 2003 at 05:39:32PM -0800, Mark Davis wrote a message of 76 lines which said: > We should remember that for a great many people in the world, Latin letters are > quite unnatural; it'd be a bit like if we had to use Greek letters in all email > addresses. It would be a bit like if we had to use Greek letters in mathematics :-) Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9S7LDI7028866 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 23:21:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.9/Submit) id h9S7LDKN028865 for ietf-pop3ext-bks; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 23:21:13 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from episteme-software.com (216-43-25-66.ip.mcleodusa.net [216.43.25.66]) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9S7L7I7028794; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 23:21:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from presnick@qualcomm.com) Received: from [216.43.25.67] (216.43.25.67) by episteme-software.com with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server X 3.2.3b1); Tue, 28 Oct 2003 01:21:01 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: resnick@resnick1.qualcomm.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <14814332829.20031027184226@brandenburg.com> References: <4CD48AD0-07EE-11D8-9C47-000A959CF516@cisco.com> <12228881609.20031027074111@brandenburg.com> <20031027105222.4eae54fd.moore@cs.utk.edu> <355752681.20031027161925@brandenburg.com> <16285.48493.496028.516294@moriarty.gnomon.org.uk> <14814332829.20031027184226@brandenburg.com> X-Mailer: Eudora [Macintosh version 6.1a2] Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 01:20:58 -0600 To: dcrocker@brandenburg.com From: Pete Resnick Subject: Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) Cc: Roy Badami , ietf-imaa@imc.org, idn@ops.ietf.org, ietf-822@imc.org, ietf@ietf.org, ietf-pop3ext@imc.org, , , , , Dave Crocker Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: On 10/27/03 at 6:42 PM -0800, Dave Crocker wrote: >RB> Even though, given IDNA now exists as a proposed standard, the main >RB> issues relate to the local part, the issue under discussion is that of >RB> internationalized mail addresses, not just internationalized >RB> local-parts. > >Really? What work needs to be done, except for local part? IDNA takes care >of the right-hand side. Please review John Klensin's draft before making these kinds of assumptions. >RB> Restricting the disucssion to local-parts runs the risk of excluding >RB> other potentially relevent issues. I agree. Limiting discussion at this point to local-part does not take into account some of the possibilities. pr -- Pete Resnick QUALCOMM Incorporated - Direct phone: (858)651-4478, Fax: (858)651-1102 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9S4gLI7092674 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 20:42:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.9/Submit) id h9S4gLSV092673 for ietf-pop3ext-bks; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 20:42:21 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout1.cac.washington.edu (mxout1.cac.washington.edu [140.142.32.134]) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9S4gHI7092646; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 20:42:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from MRC@CAC.Washington.EDU) Received: from smtp.washington.edu (smtp.washington.edu [140.142.32.139]) by mxout1.cac.washington.edu (8.12.10+UW03.09/8.12.10+UW03.09) with ESMTP id h9S4gHaZ024278; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 20:42:17 -0800 Received: from Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU (tomobiki-cho.cac.washington.edu [128.95.135.58]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp.washington.edu (8.12.10+UW03.09/8.12.10+UW03.09) with ESMTP id h9S4gHx0026302 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT); Mon, 27 Oct 2003 20:42:17 -0800 Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 20:42:19 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time) From: Mark Crispin To: Abhijit Menon-Sen cc: ietf-imaa@imc.org, idn@ops.ietf.org, ietf-822@imc.org, ietf@ietf.org, ietf-pop3ext@imc.org, lemonade@ietf.org, discuss@apps.ietf.org, ietf-imapext@imc.org, ietf-smtp@imc.org Subject: Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) In-Reply-To: <20031028095243.A1525@lustre.dyn.wiw.org> Message-ID: References: <00fd01c39ce8$b6f19fe0$79d52b09@DAVIS1> <014c01c39cf4$5675cd60$79d52b09@DAVIS1> <20031028095243.A1525@lustre.dyn.wiw.org> Organization: Networks & Distributed Computing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: On Tue, 28 Oct 2003, Abhijit Menon-Sen wrote: > The number of people in India who can read and write only their native > language, but have no usable knowledge of Latin script, is much larger > than the tiny number who are familiar with both. I'm told that this is > true for many native speakers of Chinese and Arabic as well. I defer to your superior knowledge about India. I do not believe that this is true for Chinese. AFAIK, Chinese primary school kids use Latin script with hanyu-pinyin as a stopgap prior to their mastery of Han script (which takes many years). > The use of local scripts is much more than just a "preference" for the > numerous localisation efforts in India which focus on making computing > more accessible to poor farmers and people in villages. A poor farmer or villager in China is more likely to be totally illiterate than to be literate in Han script but unable to recognize Latin script. Note that when I say "recognize Latin script", I mean the ability to determine that "dog" is a three-letter word that has the letters "d", "o", and "g", each of which the individual recognizes and can name. This does not include the ability to recognize that this refers to a domesticated canine. > (I agree that it's currently nearly impossible to use computers if one > isn't familiar with the Latin script, of course.) Which probably makes the rest of this discussion academic, unless we're going to undertake solving *that* problem for Microsoft and the various UNIX/Linux vendors... -- Mark -- http://staff.washington.edu/mrc Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. Si vis pacem, para bellum. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9S4N1I7091611 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 20:23:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.9/Submit) id h9S4N0wK091609 for ietf-pop3ext-bks; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 20:23:00 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from miranda.org (IDENT:qmailr@miranda.org [209.58.150.153]) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with SMTP id h9S4N0I7091603 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 20:23:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ams@wiw.org) Received: (qmail 21999 invoked from network); 28 Oct 2003 04:22:45 -0000 Received: from miranda.org (HELO lustre.dyn.wiw.org) (ams@209.58.150.153) by miranda.org with SMTP; 28 Oct 2003 04:22:45 -0000 Received: from ams by lustre.dyn.wiw.org with local (Exim 4.20) id 1AELNT-0000RV-Fn; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 09:52:43 +0530 Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 09:52:43 +0530 From: Abhijit Menon-Sen To: Mark Crispin Cc: ietf-imaa@imc.org, idn@ops.ietf.org, ietf-822@imc.org, ietf@ietf.org, ietf-pop3ext@imc.org, lemonade@ietf.org, discuss@apps.ietf.org, ietf-imapext@imc.org, ietf-smtp@imc.org Subject: Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) Message-ID: <20031028095243.A1525@lustre.dyn.wiw.org> References: <00fd01c39ce8$b6f19fe0$79d52b09@DAVIS1> <014c01c39cf4$5675cd60$79d52b09@DAVIS1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: At 2003-10-27 19:37:37 -0800, MRC@CAC.Washington.EDU wrote: > > I do not believe many individuals (other than primary school children) are > literate in their native language but are completely illiterate in Latin > script. This does not mean "being able to read or write the English > language"; rather, this simply means knowing the Latin script alphabet. Mark, The number of people in India who can read and write only their native language, but have no usable knowledge of Latin script, is much larger than the tiny number who are familiar with both. I'm told that this is true for many native speakers of Chinese and Arabic as well. The use of local scripts is much more than just a "preference" for the numerous localisation efforts in India which focus on making computing more accessible to poor farmers and people in villages. (I agree that it's currently nearly impossible to use computers if one isn't familiar with the Latin script, of course.) -- ams Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9S3bkI7089702 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 19:37:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.9/Submit) id h9S3bkQC089701 for ietf-pop3ext-bks; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 19:37:46 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout5.cac.washington.edu (mxout5.cac.washington.edu [140.142.32.135]) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9S3bgI7089683; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 19:37:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from MRC@CAC.Washington.EDU) Received: from smtp.washington.edu (smtp.washington.edu [140.142.33.9]) by mxout5.cac.washington.edu (8.12.10+UW03.09/8.12.10+UW03.09) with ESMTP id h9S3baMk024515; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 19:37:36 -0800 Received: from Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU (tomobiki-cho.cac.washington.edu [128.95.135.58]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp.washington.edu (8.12.10+UW03.09/8.12.10+UW03.09) with ESMTP id h9S3bZSS003692 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT); Mon, 27 Oct 2003 19:37:35 -0800 Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 19:37:37 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time) From: Mark Crispin To: Mark Davis cc: Keith Moore , dcrocker@brandenburg.com, paf@cisco.com, ietf-imaa@imc.org, idn@ops.ietf.org, ietf-822@imc.org, ietf@ietf.org, ietf-pop3ext@imc.org, lemonade@ietf.org, discuss@apps.ietf.org, IMAP Extensions WG , ietf-smtp@imc.org, presnick@Qualcomm.Com, hardie@Qualcomm.Com, ned.freed@mrochek.com Subject: Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) In-Reply-To: <014c01c39cf4$5675cd60$79d52b09@DAVIS1> Message-ID: References: <00fd01c39ce8$b6f19fe0$79d52b09@DAVIS1> <014c01c39cf4$5675cd60$79d52b09@DAVIS1> Organization: Networks & Distributed Computing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: On Mon, 27 Oct 2003, Mark Davis wrote: > Based on what I've seen, I think it quite likely that people will want email > addresses in their native script, even if that means that outsiders can't > (easily) use those email address. That may well be the case. > We should remember that for a great many people in the world, Latin > letters are quite unnatural; it'd be a bit like if we had to use Greek > letters in all email addresses. And there are many projects underway in > less-developed countries to bring computers to masses of people that > will even less familiarity with Latin letters. I am not convinced that it is possible to use a computer on the Internet anywhere in the world without at least a basic acquaintance with Latin script. I do not believe many individuals (other than primary school children) are literate in their native language but are completely illiterate in Latin script. This does not mean "being able to read or write the English language"; rather, this simply means knowing the Latin script alphabet. Put another way, individuals who are completely illiterate in Latin script are also likely to be illiterate in their native language script as well. No other script on the planet has such international recognition. There is undoubtably a *preference* for one's native script; and that preference should be respected as much as possible. -- Mark -- http://staff.washington.edu/mrc Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. Si vis pacem, para bellum. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9S2gUI7087961 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 18:42:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.9/Submit) id h9S2gUJq087960 for ietf-pop3ext-bks; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 18:42:30 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from joy.songbird.com (joy.songbird.com [208.184.79.7]) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9S2gSI7087943; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 18:42:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dhc@dcrocker.net) Received: from bbprime (jay.songbird.com [208.184.79.253]) by joy.songbird.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h9S2mVf18218; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 18:48:31 -0800 Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 18:42:26 -0800 From: Dave Crocker X-Mailer: The Bat! (v2.00.22) Reply-To: dcrocker@brandenburg.com Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <14814332829.20031027184226@brandenburg.com> To: Roy Badami CC: ietf-imaa@imc.org, idn@ops.ietf.org, ietf-822@imc.org, ietf@ietf.org, ietf-pop3ext@imc.org, , , , Subject: Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) In-Reply-To: <16285.48493.496028.516294@moriarty.gnomon.org.uk> References: <4CD48AD0-07EE-11D8-9C47-000A959CF516@cisco.com> <12228881609.20031027074111@brandenburg.com> <20031027105222.4eae54fd.moore@cs.utk.edu> <355752681.20031027161925@brandenburg.com> <16285.48493.496028.516294@moriarty.gnomon.org.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Roy, >> Mail Internationalised Local-Part (MILP) RB> Even though, given IDNA now exists as a proposed standard, the main RB> issues relate to the local part, the issue under discussion is that of RB> internationalized mail addresses, not just internationalized RB> local-parts. Really? What work needs to be done, except for local part? IDNA takes care of the right-hand side. So what is there to do about "internationalized mail addresses" other than the local part? RB> Restricting the disucssion to local-parts runs the risk of excluding RB> other potentially relevent issues. For instance, one of the issues RB> that has been discussed on the IMAA list is whether full-width at RB> should be recognized in an internationalized mail address. full-width _where_? somewhere other than local part? if yes, then how can that be practical? if no, then the charter does not preclude their use. (if you think otherwise, please explain.) d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking Sunnyvale, CA USA Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9S1dbI7085757 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:39:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.9/Submit) id h9S1daVG085752 for ietf-pop3ext-bks; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:39:36 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from w1309.hostcentric.net (w1309.hostcentric.net [66.40.78.254]) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with SMTP id h9S1dWI7085728 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:39:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark.davis@jtcsv.com) Received: (qmail 22048 invoked by alias); 28 Oct 2003 01:39:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO DAVIS1) (129.42.184.35) by 0 with SMTP; 28 Oct 2003 01:39:33 -0000 Message-ID: <014c01c39cf4$5675cd60$79d52b09@DAVIS1> From: "Mark Davis" To: "Mark Crispin" Cc: "Keith Moore" , , , , , , , , , , "IMAP Extensions WG" , , , , References: <00fd01c39ce8$b6f19fe0$79d52b09@DAVIS1> Subject: Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:39:32 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Ok, I understand more about the context. Based on what I've seen, I think it quite likely that people will want email addresses in their native script, even if that means that outsiders can't (easily) use those email address. After all, it is quite easy to have multiple email addresses. Mr. Tanaka can have one with Latin letters and one with Japanese (e.g. ムルク@カク.ワシングトン.エデゥ). We should remember that for a great many people in the world, Latin letters are quite unnatural; it'd be a bit like if we had to use Greek letters in all email addresses. And there are many projects underway in less-developed countries to bring computers to masses of people that will even less familiarity with Latin letters. Mark __________________________________ http://www.macchiato.com ► शिष्यादिच्छेत्पराजयम् ◄ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Crispin" To: "Mark Davis" Cc: "Keith Moore" ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; "IMAP Extensions WG" ; ; ; ; Sent: Mon, 2003 Oct 27 17:15 Subject: Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) > On Mon, 27 Oct 2003, Mark Davis wrote: > > I'm curious: why do you think that everyone would be satisfied with Latin > > characters only, and no non-Latin characters? > > I didn't say that. I stated my belief that, for reasons of practicality, > most individuals in regions which do not use Latin script accept the use > of Latin script for multinational exchange. > > It does not work well for an individual in Japan with surname Tanaka to > expect the overwhelming majority of non-Japanese individuals worldwide to > know his surname is written with the Han characters for "rice paddy" and > "middle", or what those characters look like, or how to enter those > characters on the computer. > > It does, however, work for him to expect that the overwhelming majority of > individuals worldwide to know how to deal with the 6 Latin letters that > form the romanization "Tanaka". > > Nor is it very likely that this situation will change in the future. I > doubt that many individuals in the world are literate in all the world's > active scripts. Literacy in one's native script and basic Latin script is > something that most computer users possess today. > > For domestic exchange only, that pair of Han characters are probably > alright. Within Western Europe, it's probably alright to use Latin > characters with diacriticals. > > Perhaps the main problem that needs to be decided in any IEA effort is if > it is alright to have email addresses that are only usable in limited > areas of the world; or if not, how to represent internationalized email > addresses in a usable fashion when (not if) the email address needs to be > represented for a person and/or computer is illiterate in that script. > > A likely side issue is whether it is "good enough" to promote Latin > characters with diacriticals to the same status of "everybody must know > how to do these" that is required for ASCII. > > -- Mark -- > > http://staff.washington.edu/mrc > Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. > Si vis pacem, para bellum. > Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9S1FXI7084842 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:15:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.9/Submit) id h9S1FXpB084841 for ietf-pop3ext-bks; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:15:33 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout1.cac.washington.edu (mxout1.cac.washington.edu [140.142.32.134]) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9S1FTI7084821; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:15:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from MRC@CAC.Washington.EDU) Received: from smtp.washington.edu (smtp.washington.edu [140.142.32.139]) by mxout1.cac.washington.edu (8.12.10+UW03.09/8.12.10+UW03.09) with ESMTP id h9S1EwaZ010323; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:14:59 -0800 Received: from Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU (tomobiki-cho.cac.washington.edu [128.95.135.58]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp.washington.edu (8.12.10+UW03.09/8.12.10+UW03.09) with ESMTP id h9S1Ewx0018732 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=NOT); Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:14:58 -0800 Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:15:00 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time) From: Mark Crispin To: Mark Davis cc: Keith Moore , dcrocker@brandenburg.com, paf@cisco.com, ietf-imaa@imc.org, idn@ops.ietf.org, ietf-822@imc.org, ietf@ietf.org, ietf-pop3ext@imc.org, lemonade@ietf.org, discuss@apps.ietf.org, IMAP Extensions WG , ietf-smtp@imc.org, presnick@Qualcomm.Com, hardie@Qualcomm.Com, ned.freed@mrochek.com Subject: Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) In-Reply-To: <00fd01c39ce8$b6f19fe0$79d52b09@DAVIS1> Message-ID: References: <00fd01c39ce8$b6f19fe0$79d52b09@DAVIS1> Organization: Networks & Distributed Computing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: On Mon, 27 Oct 2003, Mark Davis wrote: > I'm curious: why do you think that everyone would be satisfied with Latin > characters only, and no non-Latin characters? I didn't say that. I stated my belief that, for reasons of practicality, most individuals in regions which do not use Latin script accept the use of Latin script for multinational exchange. It does not work well for an individual in Japan with surname Tanaka to expect the overwhelming majority of non-Japanese individuals worldwide to know his surname is written with the Han characters for "rice paddy" and "middle", or what those characters look like, or how to enter those characters on the computer. It does, however, work for him to expect that the overwhelming majority of individuals worldwide to know how to deal with the 6 Latin letters that form the romanization "Tanaka". Nor is it very likely that this situation will change in the future. I doubt that many individuals in the world are literate in all the world's active scripts. Literacy in one's native script and basic Latin script is something that most computer users possess today. For domestic exchange only, that pair of Han characters are probably alright. Within Western Europe, it's probably alright to use Latin characters with diacriticals. Perhaps the main problem that needs to be decided in any IEA effort is if it is alright to have email addresses that are only usable in limited areas of the world; or if not, how to represent internationalized email addresses in a usable fashion when (not if) the email address needs to be represented for a person and/or computer is illiterate in that script. A likely side issue is whether it is "good enough" to promote Latin characters with diacriticals to the same status of "everybody must know how to do these" that is required for ASCII. -- Mark -- http://staff.washington.edu/mrc Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. Si vis pacem, para bellum. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9S1A1I7084635 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:10:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.9/Submit) id h9S1A1ff084634 for ietf-pop3ext-bks; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:10:01 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from panoramix.hexago.com ([209.71.226.3]) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9S19rI7084577; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:09:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Marc.Blanchet@viagenie.qc.ca) Received: from localhost (retro.viagenie.qc.ca [IPv6:3ffe:b00:c18:3::22]) (authenticated bits=0) by panoramix.hexago.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9S18c6r006354; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 20:08:39 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 20:08:25 -0500 From: Marc Blanchet To: Dave Crocker , ietf-imaa@imc.org, idn@ops.ietf.org, ietf-822@imc.org, ietf@ietf.org, ietf-pop3ext@imc.org, lemonade@ietf.org, discuss@apps.ietf.org, ietf-imapext@imc.org, ietf-smtp@imc.org Subject: Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) Message-ID: <839550000.1067303305@classic.viagenie.qc.ca> In-Reply-To: <355752681.20031027161925@brandenburg.com> References: <4CD48AD0-07EE-11D8-9C47-000A959CF516@cisco.com> <12228881609.20031027074111@brandenburg.com> <20031027105222.4eae54fd.moore@cs.utk.edu> <355752681.20031027161925@brandenburg.com> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.0b8 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: - good start! - timeline seems pretty agressive... will see. - would probably good to have a requirement document upfront. Might not the same way that idn requirement ends up, but a narrow-implementable requirement would help to have a concensus (hopefully) on what needs to be done. - while the idn req went not that good, now that we have experience, I think we should try to be better and have one. I know I might start some debate with this, but still think it is the best way to go... - would be useful to have some reference to idn (idna) in the charter, as background work. the developers and users will have to take care of "both" (ie. idn and imail) in the email infrastructure. Marc. -- Monday, October 27, 2003 16:19:25 -0800 Dave Crocker wrote/a ecrit: > Folks, > > On the theory that discussions go better when they have a concrete > deliverable, here is a proposed charter for a proposed working group. > > The following started with Mark Crispin's text, although it might not > look it. Besides the usual goals for a charter, the following text > attempts to specify the problem domain in the narrowest feasible form > that is valid. If anyone thinks the scope is too narrow, they need to > explain why. > > > > DRAFT CHARTER > > Mail Internationalised Local-Part (MILP) > --------------------------------- > > The portion of RFC2822 and portion of RFC2821 > mail addresses are restricted to a subset of ASCII. This poses a > fundamental barrier for users needing mail addresses to be expressed in a > richer set of characters, such as Latin characters with diacriticals and > the many Asian characters. The goal of the current work is to add > local-part support for these additional characters, while preserving the > large, installed base of ASCII usage. > > The group will take: > > draft-hoffman-imaa-03.txt > draft-klensin-emailaddr-i18n-01.txt > draft-duerst-iri-04.txt > > as input to discussions. > > The group will pay particular attention to barriers to adoption and > utility, as well as any impact the new scheme might have on the existing > base of Internet mail usage. > > > Milestones > ---------- > > Nov, 03: BOF > > Dec, 03: WG chartered > > Feb, 03: Initial draft of working group specifications. > > Jun, 03: Specifications submitted for IETF approval > > > d/ > -- > Dave Crocker > Brandenburg InternetWorking > Sunnyvale, CA USA > ------------------------------------------ Marc Blanchet Hexago tel: +1-418-266-5533x225 ------------------------------------------ http://www.freenet6.net: IPv6 connectivity ------------------------------------------ Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9S0pBI7083772 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 16:51:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.9/Submit) id h9S0pBF3083771 for ietf-pop3ext-bks; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 16:51:11 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from willow.gnomon.org.uk (willow.gnomon.org.uk [69.10.132.76]) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9S0pAI7083766 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 16:51:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roy+dated+1069894267.41096d@gnomon.org.uk) Received: from moriarty.gnomon.org.uk (cpc4-cmbg2-5-0-cust162.cmbg.cable.ntl.com [81.100.86.162]) by willow.gnomon.org.uk (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.6) with ESMTP id h9S0p9RX014086 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=OK) for ; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 00:51:12 GMT Received: from moriarty.gnomon.org.uk (roy@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moriarty.gnomon.org.uk (8.12.3/8.12.3/Debian-6.6) with ESMTP id h9S0p8Ze008689 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 2003 00:51:08 GMT Received: by moriarty.gnomon.org.uk (tmda-sendmail, from uid 559); Tue, 28 Oct 2003 00:50:59 +0000 (GMT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <16285.48493.496028.516294@moriarty.gnomon.org.uk> Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2003 00:50:53 +0000 To: Dave Crocker Cc: ietf-imaa@imc.org, idn@ops.ietf.org, ietf-822@imc.org, ietf@ietf.org, ietf-pop3ext@imc.org, , , , Subject: Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) In-Reply-To: <355752681.20031027161925@brandenburg.com> References: <4CD48AD0-07EE-11D8-9C47-000A959CF516@cisco.com> <12228881609.20031027074111@brandenburg.com> <20031027105222.4eae54fd.moore@cs.utk.edu> <355752681.20031027161925@brandenburg.com> X-Mailer: VM 7.03 under Emacs 20.7.2 From: Roy Badami X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/0.81 (Swaps) X-Primary-Address: roy@gnomon.org.uk Sender: owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: > Mail Internationalised Local-Part (MILP) Even though, given IDNA now exists as a proposed standard, the main issues relate to the local part, the issue under discussion is that of internationalized mail addresses, not just internationalized local-parts. Restricting the disucssion to local-parts runs the risk of excluding other potentially relevent issues. For instance, one of the issues that has been discussed on the IMAA list is whether full-width at should be recognized in an internationalized mail address. IMHO, the charter shouldn't be framed in a way that is sufficiently narrow as to render such questions out of scope. -roy Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9S0KYI7082582 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 16:20:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.9/Submit) id h9S0KYTc082580 for ietf-pop3ext-bks; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 16:20:34 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from joy.songbird.com (joy.songbird.com [208.184.79.7]) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9S0KWI7082563; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 16:20:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dhc@dcrocker.net) Received: from bbprime (jay.songbird.com [208.184.79.253]) by joy.songbird.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h9S0Qaf09143; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 16:26:36 -0800 Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 16:19:25 -0800 From: Dave Crocker X-Mailer: The Bat! (v2.00.22) Reply-To: Dave Crocker Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <355752681.20031027161925@brandenburg.com> To: ietf-imaa@imc.org, idn@ops.ietf.org, ietf-822@imc.org, ietf@ietf.org, ietf-pop3ext@imc.org, , , , Subject: Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) In-Reply-To: References: <4CD48AD0-07EE-11D8-9C47-000A959CF516@cisco.com> <12228881609.20031027074111@brandenburg.com> <20031027105222.4eae54fd.moore@cs.utk.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Folks, On the theory that discussions go better when they have a concrete deliverable, here is a proposed charter for a proposed working group. The following started with Mark Crispin's text, although it might not look it. Besides the usual goals for a charter, the following text attempts to specify the problem domain in the narrowest feasible form that is valid. If anyone thinks the scope is too narrow, they need to explain why. DRAFT CHARTER Mail Internationalised Local-Part (MILP) --------------------------------- The portion of RFC2822 and portion of RFC2821 mail addresses are restricted to a subset of ASCII. This poses a fundamental barrier for users needing mail addresses to be expressed in a richer set of characters, such as Latin characters with diacriticals and the many Asian characters. The goal of the current work is to add local-part support for these additional characters, while preserving the large, installed base of ASCII usage. The group will take: draft-hoffman-imaa-03.txt draft-klensin-emailaddr-i18n-01.txt draft-duerst-iri-04.txt as input to discussions. The group will pay particular attention to barriers to adoption and utility, as well as any impact the new scheme might have on the existing base of Internet mail usage. Milestones ---------- Nov, 03: BOF Dec, 03: WG chartered Feb, 03: Initial draft of working group specifications. Jun, 03: Specifications submitted for IETF approval d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking Sunnyvale, CA USA Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9S0GOI7082405 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 16:16:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.9/Submit) id h9S0GOpi082401 for ietf-pop3ext-bks; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 16:16:24 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from w1309.hostcentric.net (w1309.hostcentric.net [66.40.78.254]) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with SMTP id h9S0GKI7082375 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 16:16:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark.davis@jtcsv.com) Received: (qmail 22319 invoked by alias); 28 Oct 2003 00:16:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO DAVIS1) (129.42.184.35) by 0 with SMTP; 28 Oct 2003 00:16:21 -0000 Message-ID: <00fd01c39ce8$b6f19fe0$79d52b09@DAVIS1> From: "Mark Davis" To: "Mark Crispin" , "Keith Moore" Cc: , , , , , , , , , , , , , References: Subject: Re: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 16:16:20 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: I'm curious: why do you think that everyone would be satisfied with Latin characters only, and no non-Latin characters? Mark __________________________________ http://www.macchiato.com ► शिष्यादिच्छेत्पराजयम् ◄ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Crispin" To: "Keith Moore" Cc: ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; Sent: Mon, 2003 Oct 27 11:10 Subject: [idn] Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) > On Mon, 27 Oct 2003, Keith Moore wrote: > > >> Thanks for taking a stab at a problem statement. I'd like to drill down > >> on this just a bit. > >> What is the source of the "growing need"? Is it: > >> [snip] > > > I agree that this needs to be stated, but someone other than me will have > to do it. > > I believe that the primary push for this functionality comes from regions > which use Latin alphabetics with diacriticals; and that most individuals > in regions which do not use Latin script are accept the use of Latin > script for multinational interchange. In many regions where Latin > diacriticals are used, there is no acceptable transform of a surname to a > form that does not use diacriticals. Simply omitting the diacritical > causes (at least to the inhabitants of those regions) a misspelling. > > This set of beliefs naturally biases how I approach the problem. The > problem statement must be free of bias, including mine. > > -- Mark -- > > http://staff.washington.edu/mrc > Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. > Si vis pacem, para bellum. > > > > > > > > Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9RNhGI7081092 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 15:43:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.9/Submit) id h9RNhG43081088 for ietf-pop3ext-bks; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 15:43:16 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from sentosa.post1.com (sentosa.post1.com [202.27.17.100]) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with SMTP id h9RNh9I7081059 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 15:43:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jseng@pobox.org.sg) Received: (qmail 5838 invoked from network); 28 Oct 2003 00:01:35 -0000 Received: from rifcd-04p117.ppp.odn.ad.jp (HELO pobox.org.sg) (211.3.24.117) by sentosa.post1.com with SMTP; 28 Oct 2003 00:01:35 -0000 Message-ID: <3F9CFC5D.7060509@pobox.org.sg> Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 19:07:09 +0800 From: James Seng User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.4) Gecko/20030624 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en, zh-cn, zh-tw, ja, ko MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Patrik_F=E4ltstr=F6m?= CC: ietf-imaa@imc.org, idn@ops.ietf.org, ietf-822@imc.org, ietf@ietf.org, ietf-pop3ext@imc.org, lemonade@ietf.org, discuss@apps.ietf.org, ietf-imapext@imc.org, ietf-smtp@imc.org, Pete Resnick , Ted Hardie , Ned Freed Subject: Re: [idn] FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) References: <4CD48AD0-07EE-11D8-9C47-000A959CF516@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <4CD48AD0-07EE-11D8-9C47-000A959CF516@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: I seen John and Paul proposal but I have not seen Michel. Is there a draft that I can read up? ps: I wont be able to join the meeting but I am interested in the subject. -James Seng Patrik Fltstrm wrote: > At the IETF in Minneapolis, there will be a BOF on Internationalized > Email Addresses (IEA). > > It is *preliminary* on the agenda on Monday, November 10, 2003 at > 1530-1730. > > Chairs: Pete Resnick, Patrik Fltstrm > Mailing list:imaa@imc.org (other salient lists include uri@w3.org) > Agenda: > > Agenda Bashing (Chairs) 5 min. > Topic Introduction (Chairs) 10 min. > Proposals > IDNA-Based (Paul Hoffman) 15 min. > Infrastructure-Based (John Klensin) 15 min. > IRI-Based (Michel Suignard) 15 min. > > Discussion 60 min. > > Topics for discussion: > > Are there other solutions which have been specified? > > The solutions present the problem at different scopes; > > Where should the IETF tackle it? > > Are some short-term, and other long-term? > > Can the solutions be staged or co-exist? > > If staged, how to migrate from one to another? > > What are the next steps for the IETF? > > > NB: This BoF is exploratory in nature, and it is not intended that the > IETF will finalize a decision in this venue. It was proposed to foster > a community discussion, not charter a working group or pick a winner. If > further work is required, step one would be identifying individuals > willing to carry that work forward. > > Reading material: > draft-hoffman-imaa-03.txt > draft-klensin-emailaddr-i18n-01.txt > draft-duerst-iri-04.txt > > Pete and myself hope people will come with a lot of constructive > comments and ideas. > > Patrik, co-chair of the bof > > > > > Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9RJBLI7069318 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 11:11:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.9/Submit) id h9RJBL7V069317 for ietf-pop3ext-bks; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 11:11:21 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout3.cac.washington.edu (mxout3.cac.washington.edu [140.142.32.166]) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9RJBII7069299; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 11:11:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU) Received: from shiva1.cac.washington.edu (shiva1.cac.washington.edu [140.142.100.201]) by mxout3.cac.washington.edu (8.12.10+UW03.09/8.12.10+UW03.09) with ESMTP id h9RJAtC2014056; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 11:10:56 -0800 Received: from localhost (mrc@localhost) by shiva1.cac.washington.edu (8.12.10+UW03.09/8.12.10+UW03.09) with ESMTP id h9RJAtOx022764; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 11:10:55 -0800 Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 11:10:55 -0800 (PST) From: Mark Crispin To: Keith Moore cc: dcrocker@brandenburg.com, paf@cisco.com, ietf-imaa@imc.org, idn@ops.ietf.org, ietf-822@imc.org, ietf@ietf.org, ietf-pop3ext@imc.org, lemonade@ietf.org, discuss@apps.ietf.org, ietf-imapext@imc.org, ietf-smtp@imc.org, presnick@Qualcomm.Com, hardie@Qualcomm.Com, ned.freed@mrochek.com Subject: Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) In-Reply-To: <20031027134403.5eaaee9e.moore@cs.utk.edu> Message-ID: References: <4CD48AD0-07EE-11D8-9C47-000A959CF516@cisco.com> <12228881609.20031027074111@brandenburg.com> <20031027105222.4eae54fd.moore@cs.utk.edu> <20031027134403.5eaaee9e.moore@cs.utk.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: On Mon, 27 Oct 2003, Keith Moore wrote: > Thanks for taking a stab at a problem statement. I'd like to drill down > on this just a bit. > What is the source of the "growing need"? Is it: > [snip] I agree that this needs to be stated, but someone other than me will have to do it. I believe that the primary push for this functionality comes from regions which use Latin alphabetics with diacriticals; and that most individuals in regions which do not use Latin script are accept the use of Latin script for multinational interchange. In many regions where Latin diacriticals are used, there is no acceptable transform of a surname to a form that does not use diacriticals. Simply omitting the diacritical causes (at least to the inhabitants of those regions) a misspelling. This set of beliefs naturally biases how I approach the problem. The problem statement must be free of bias, including mine. -- Mark -- http://staff.washington.edu/mrc Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. Si vis pacem, para bellum. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9RIjeI7067931 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 10:45:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.9/Submit) id h9RIjej8067930 for ietf-pop3ext-bks; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 10:45:40 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9RIjXI7067898; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 10:45:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from moore@cs.utk.edu) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F4301401D; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 13:45:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 25223-11; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 13:45:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AA6C13FEC; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 13:45:33 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 13:44:03 -0500 From: Keith Moore To: Mark Crispin Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, dcrocker@brandenburg.com, paf@cisco.com, ietf-imaa@imc.org, idn@ops.ietf.org, ietf-822@imc.org, ietf@ietf.org, ietf-pop3ext@imc.org, lemonade@ietf.org, discuss@apps.ietf.org, ietf-imapext@imc.org, ietf-smtp@imc.org, presnick@Qualcomm.Com, hardie@Qualcomm.Com, ned.freed@mrochek.com Subject: Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) Message-Id: <20031027134403.5eaaee9e.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: References: <4CD48AD0-07EE-11D8-9C47-000A959CF516@cisco.com> <12228881609.20031027074111@brandenburg.com> <20031027105222.4eae54fd.moore@cs.utk.edu> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.6 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Mark, Thanks for taking a stab at a problem statement. I'd like to drill down on this just a bit. What is the source of the "growing need"? Is it: a. for users of many languages (particularly those not using Latin alphabets) email addresses are difficult to remember b. for users of many languages (particularly those not using Latin alphabets) email addresses are difficult to transcribe or type c. users want to use their names in email addresses d. users are confused by apparently arbitrary restrictions on use of characters in email addresses, and this leads to mistakes e. on computer systems employing non-ASCII names for other purposes (e.g. login or account names) these do not map well to ASCII email addresses or something else that I don't see? > As presently constituted, email addresses are limited to the 26 Latin > alphabetics, 10 digits, and a limited number of special characters in > the ASCII character set. There is a growing need to use additional > characters, specifically Latin characters with diacriticals and > non-Latin characters, in email addresses to better serve the needs of > the multi-national Internet community. However, the restrictions of > ASCII email addresses have served as a "lingua franca" since everybody > can enter ASCII email addresses, and there is an ongoing need for this > as well. The problem to be solved is the resolution of these two > needs. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9RHUuI7062579 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 09:30:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.9/Submit) id h9RHUurK062578 for ietf-pop3ext-bks; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 09:30:56 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mx.spindry.com (p1.spindry.com [64.5.41.83]) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9RHUsI7062559; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 09:30:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bill-imc@carpenter.ORG) Received: from filenet-gw.filenet.com ([198.3.8.1] helo=ATTABOY.carpenter.ORG) by mx.spindry.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #2) id 1AEBCg-0005Z8-00; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 12:30:54 -0500 Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 09:30:46 -0800 Message-ID: <4027-Mon27Oct2003093046-0800-bill@carpenter.ORG> X-Mailer: 21.1 (patch 9) "Canyonlands" XEmacs Lucid (via feedmail 11-beta-2 I) wjc loop; VM 6.71 under 21.1 (patch 9) "Canyonlands" XEmacs Lucid MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: bill-imc@carpenter.ORG (WJCarpenter) To: ietf-imaa@imc.org, idn@ops.ietf.org, ietf-822@imc.org, ietf@ietf.org, ietf-pop3ext@imc.org, lemonade@ietf.org, discuss@apps.ietf.org, ietf-imapext@imc.org, ietf-smtp@imc.org Subject: Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) In-Reply-To: References: <4CD48AD0-07EE-11D8-9C47-000A959CF516@cisco.com> <12228881609.20031027074111@brandenburg.com> <20031027105222.4eae54fd.moore@cs.utk.edu> Sender: owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: mc> As presently constituted, email addresses are limited to the 26 mc> Latin alphabetics, 10 digits, and a limited number of special mc> characters in the ASCII character set. There is a growing need to upper and lower case alphabetics -- bill-imc@carpenter.ORG (WJCarpenter) PGP 0x91865119 38 95 1B 69 C9 C6 3D 25 73 46 32 04 69 D6 ED F3 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9RHDsI7061690 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 09:13:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.9/Submit) id h9RHDswM061688 for ietf-pop3ext-bks; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 09:13:54 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from mxout2.cac.washington.edu (mxout2.cac.washington.edu [140.142.33.4]) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9RHDpI7061670; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 09:13:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU) Received: from shiva1.cac.washington.edu (shiva1.cac.washington.edu [140.142.100.201]) by mxout2.cac.washington.edu (8.12.10+UW03.09/8.12.10+UW03.09) with ESMTP id h9RHDThu011833; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 09:13:30 -0800 Received: from localhost (mrc@localhost) by shiva1.cac.washington.edu (8.12.10+UW03.09/8.12.10+UW03.09) with ESMTP id h9RHDTew015664; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 09:13:29 -0800 Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 09:13:29 -0800 (PST) From: Mark Crispin To: Keith Moore cc: Dave Crocker , paf@cisco.com, ietf-imaa@imc.org, idn@ops.ietf.org, ietf-822@imc.org, ietf@ietf.org, ietf-pop3ext@imc.org, lemonade@ietf.org, discuss@apps.ietf.org, ietf-imapext@imc.org, ietf-smtp@imc.org, presnick@Qualcomm.Com, hardie@Qualcomm.Com, ned.freed@mrochek.com Subject: Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) In-Reply-To: <20031027105222.4eae54fd.moore@cs.utk.edu> Message-ID: References: <4CD48AD0-07EE-11D8-9C47-000A959CF516@cisco.com> <12228881609.20031027074111@brandenburg.com> <20031027105222.4eae54fd.moore@cs.utk.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: On Mon, 27 Oct 2003, Keith Moore wrote: > what problem are we trying to solve here? I agree with Keith. This isn't to say that I dispute that there is a problem to be solved -- indeed, I think that the problem is apparent to all -- but we must have a problem statement that we all agree upon before we even think about solutions. I don't think that references to drafts of proposed solutions suffice as a problem statement. Leaving aside questions of possible bias (= present a problem in such a way that this is the obvious best solution), having the problem statement in a draft (which by its nature is an ephemeral document) muddies the issues. The problem statement should consist of a single paragraph (and preferably in one or two sentences), separate from any proposed solution, and stated in a charter which is approved by everyone. Here's a start at such a statement: As presently constituted, email addresses are limited to the 26 Latin alphabetics, 10 digits, and a limited number of special characters in the ASCII character set. There is a growing need to use additional characters, specifically Latin characters with diacriticals and non-Latin characters, in email addresses to better serve the needs of the multi-national Internet community. However, the restrictions of ASCII email addresses have served as a "lingua franca" since everybody can enter ASCII email addresses, and there is an ongoing need for this as well. The problem to be solved is the resolution of these two needs. -- Mark -- http://staff.washington.edu/mrc Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate. Si vis pacem, para bellum. Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9RH1sI7061186 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 09:01:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.9/Submit) id h9RH1sVh061185 for ietf-pop3ext-bks; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 09:01:54 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from panoramix.hexago.com ([209.71.226.3]) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9RH1oI7061125; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 09:01:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Marc.Blanchet@viagenie.qc.ca) Received: from localhost (retro.viagenie.qc.ca [IPv6:3ffe:b00:c18:3::22]) (authenticated bits=0) by panoramix.hexago.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9RH0M6r005886; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 12:00:22 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 12:00:01 -0500 From: Marc Blanchet To: Keith Moore , Dave Crocker cc: paf@cisco.com, ietf-imaa@imc.org, idn@ops.ietf.org, ietf-822@imc.org, ietf@ietf.org, ietf-pop3ext@imc.org, lemonade@ietf.org, discuss@apps.ietf.org, ietf-imapext@imc.org, ietf-smtp@imc.org, presnick@Qualcomm.Com, hardie@Qualcomm.Com, ned.freed@mrochek.com Subject: Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) Message-ID: <575390000.1067274001@classic.viagenie.qc.ca> In-Reply-To: <20031027105222.4eae54fd.moore@cs.utk.edu> References: <4CD48AD0-07EE-11D8-9C47-000A959CF516@cisco.com> <12228881609.20031027074111@brandenburg.com> <20031027105222.4eae54fd.moore@cs.utk.edu> X-Mailer: Mulberry/3.1.0b8 (Linux/x86) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: -- Monday, October 27, 2003 10:52:22 -0500 Keith Moore wrote/a ecrit: >> PF> What are the next steps for the IETF? >> >> Would it help to have a draft charter for the meeting? > > let's back up a step further. > > what problem are we trying to solve here? to me, that (problem we are trying to solve) would be part of the introduction in the charter... so I guess some initial proposal for: - what are we trying to solve - what would be the way to solve it would be a good starting point together with the "state-of-the-art" presentations. Marc. > > Keith ------------------------------------------ Marc Blanchet Hexago tel: +1-418-266-5533x225 ------------------------------------------ http://www.freenet6.net: IPv6 connectivity ------------------------------------------ Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9RGbVI7060044 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 08:37:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.9/Submit) id h9RGbVEO060043 for ietf-pop3ext-bks; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 08:37:31 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from episteme-software.com (216-43-25-66.ip.mcleodusa.net [216.43.25.66]) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9RGbRI7060023; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 08:37:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from presnick@qualcomm.com) Received: from [216.43.25.67] (216.43.25.67) by episteme-software.com with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server X 3.2.3b1); Mon, 27 Oct 2003 10:37:25 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: resnick@resnick1.qualcomm.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <20031027105222.4eae54fd.moore@cs.utk.edu> References: <4CD48AD0-07EE-11D8-9C47-000A959CF516@cisco.com> <12228881609.20031027074111@brandenburg.com> <20031027105222.4eae54fd.moore@cs.utk.edu> X-Mailer: Eudora [Macintosh version 6.1a2] Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 10:37:21 -0600 To: Keith Moore From: Pete Resnick Subject: Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) Cc: Dave Crocker , moore@cs.utk.edu, paf@cisco.com, ietf-imaa@imc.org, idn@ops.ietf.org, ietf-822@imc.org, ietf@ietf.org, ietf-pop3ext@imc.org, lemonade@ietf.org, discuss@apps.ietf.org, ietf-imapext@imc.org, ietf-smtp@imc.org, hardie@Qualcomm.Com, ned.freed@mrochek.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: On 10/27/03 at 10:52 AM -0500, Keith Moore wrote: >>DC: Would it help to have a draft charter for the meeting? As was mentioned in the draft agenda at , we want to simply start the discussion, not immediately attempt to charter a working group. >let's back up a step further. > >what problem are we trying to solve here? Please have a look at draft-hoffman-imaa, draft-klensin-emailaddr-i18n, and draft-duerst-iri. Certainly the first two have very explicit descriptions of the problem. pr -- Pete Resnick QUALCOMM Incorporated - Direct phone: (858)651-4478, Fax: (858)651-1102 Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9RFrsI7057227 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 07:53:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.9/Submit) id h9RFrshn057226 for ietf-pop3ext-bks; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 07:53:54 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu (klutz.cs.utk.edu [160.36.56.50]) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9RFrnI7057198; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 07:53:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from moore@cs.utk.edu) Received: from localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 812AC14142; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 10:53:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from klutz.cs.utk.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (klutz [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 01580-02; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 10:53:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from astro.cs.utk.edu (astro.cs.utk.edu [160.36.58.43]) by smtp.cs.utk.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D86C14094; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 10:53:49 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 10:52:22 -0500 From: Keith Moore To: Dave Crocker Cc: moore@cs.utk.edu, paf@cisco.com, ietf-imaa@imc.org, idn@ops.ietf.org, ietf-822@imc.org, ietf@ietf.org, ietf-pop3ext@imc.org, lemonade@ietf.org, discuss@apps.ietf.org, ietf-imapext@imc.org, ietf-smtp@imc.org, presnick@Qualcomm.Com, hardie@Qualcomm.Com, ned.freed@mrochek.com Subject: Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) Message-Id: <20031027105222.4eae54fd.moore@cs.utk.edu> In-Reply-To: <12228881609.20031027074111@brandenburg.com> References: <4CD48AD0-07EE-11D8-9C47-000A959CF516@cisco.com> <12228881609.20031027074111@brandenburg.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.9.6 (GTK+ 1.2.10; i386--netbsdelf) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new and ClamAV at cs.utk.edu Sender: owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: > PF> What are the next steps for the IETF? > > Would it help to have a draft charter for the meeting? let's back up a step further. what problem are we trying to solve here? Keith Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9RFiqI7056734 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 07:44:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.9/Submit) id h9RFiqO3056733 for ietf-pop3ext-bks; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 07:44:52 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from joy.songbird.com (joy.songbird.com [208.184.79.7]) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9RFimI7056714; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 07:44:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcrocker@brandenburg.com) Received: from bbprime (jay.songbird.com [208.184.79.253]) by joy.songbird.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id h9RFokf29900; Mon, 27 Oct 2003 07:50:46 -0800 Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 07:41:11 -0800 From: Dave Crocker X-Mailer: The Bat! (v2.00.22) Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <12228881609.20031027074111@brandenburg.com> To: =?ISO-8859-1?B?UGF0cmlrIEbkbHRzdHL2bQ==?= CC: ietf-imaa@imc.org, idn@ops.ietf.org, ietf-822@imc.org, ietf@ietf.org, ietf-pop3ext@imc.org, , , , , Pete Resnick , Ted Hardie , Ned Freed Subject: Re: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) In-Reply-To: <4CD48AD0-07EE-11D8-9C47-000A959CF516@cisco.com> References: <4CD48AD0-07EE-11D8-9C47-000A959CF516@cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: Patrik, Thanks for putting this BOF together. PF> Where should the IETF tackle it? I am not sure I understand this question. Please clarify. PF> What are the next steps for the IETF? Would it help to have a draft charter for the meeting? (I realize that the presence of such different specifications makes a charter at least a bit challenging, but it seems to help to have a draft, to make things concrete.) d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking Sunnyvale, CA USA Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9QJtSI7031775 for ; Sun, 26 Oct 2003 11:55:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.9/Submit) id h9QJtSjN031774 for ietf-pop3ext-bks; Sun, 26 Oct 2003 11:55:28 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ams-iport-1.cisco.com (ams-iport-1.cisco.com [144.254.74.5]) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9QJtGI7031748; Sun, 26 Oct 2003 11:55:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paf@cisco.com) Received: from cisco.com (144.254.74.60) by ams-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 26 Oct 2003 20:53:10 +0100 Received: from xbe-ams-312.cisco.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ams-msg-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.2/8.12.6) with ESMTP id h9QJt4l0006339; Sun, 26 Oct 2003 20:55:04 +0100 (MET) Received: from xfe-ams-311.cisco.com ([144.254.228.204]) by xbe-ams-312.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Sun, 26 Oct 2003 20:55:11 +0100 Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([144.254.74.55]) by xfe-ams-311.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5329); Sun, 26 Oct 2003 20:55:10 +0100 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v606) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Message-Id: <4CD48AD0-07EE-11D8-9C47-000A959CF516@cisco.com> Cc: Pete Resnick , Ted Hardie , Ned Freed From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Patrik_F=E4ltstr=F6m?= Subject: FYI: BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 20:55:08 +0100 To: ietf-imaa@imc.org, idn@ops.ietf.org, ietf-822@imc.org, ietf@ietf.org, ietf-pop3ext@imc.org, lemonade@ietf.org, discuss@apps.ietf.org, ietf-imapext@imc.org, ietf-smtp@imc.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.606) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Oct 2003 19:55:10.0612 (UTC) FILETIME=[101FC540:01C39BFB] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by above.proper.com id h9QJtII9031751 Sender: owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: At the IETF in Minneapolis, there will be a BOF on Internationalized Email Addresses (IEA). It is *preliminary* on the agenda on Monday, November 10, 2003 at 1530-1730. Chairs: Pete Resnick, Patrik Fltstrm Mailing list:imaa@imc.org (other salient lists include uri@w3.org) Agenda: Agenda Bashing (Chairs) 5 min. Topic Introduction (Chairs) 10 min. Proposals IDNA-Based (Paul Hoffman) 15 min. Infrastructure-Based (John Klensin) 15 min. IRI-Based (Michel Suignard) 15 min. Discussion 60 min. Topics for discussion: Are there other solutions which have been specified? The solutions present the problem at different scopes; Where should the IETF tackle it? Are some short-term, and other long-term? Can the solutions be staged or co-exist? If staged, how to migrate from one to another? What are the next steps for the IETF? NB: This BoF is exploratory in nature, and it is not intended that the IETF will finalize a decision in this venue. It was proposed to foster a community discussion, not charter a working group or pick a winner. If further work is required, step one would be identifying individuals willing to carry that work forward. Reading material: draft-hoffman-imaa-03.txt draft-klensin-emailaddr-i18n-01.txt draft-duerst-iri-04.txt Pete and myself hope people will come with a lot of constructive comments and ideas. Patrik, co-chair of the bof Received: from above.proper.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9AJckZA007035 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 2003 12:38:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.9/Submit) id h9AJckvj007034 for ietf-pop3ext-bks; Fri, 10 Oct 2003 12:38:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: above.proper.com: majordom set sender to owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org using -f Received: from ietf.org (odin.ietf.org [132.151.1.176]) by above.proper.com (8.12.10/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h9AJciZA007028 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 2003 12:38:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dinaras@cnri.reston.va.us) Received: from CNRI.Reston.VA.US (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietf.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1a) with ESMTP id PAA15732; Fri, 10 Oct 2003 15:38:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200310101938.PAA15732@ietf.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" To: IETF-Announce: ; Cc: ietf-pop3ext@imc.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Reply-to: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-siemborski-rfc1734bis-00.txt Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 15:38:36 -0400 Sender: owner-ietf-pop3ext@mail.imc.org Precedence: bulk List-Archive: List-ID: List-Unsubscribe: --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. Title : POP3 SASL Authentication Mechanism Author(s) : R. Siemborski Filename : draft-siemborski-rfc1734bis-00.txt Pages : 11 Date : 2003-10-10 This document defines a profile of the Simple Authentication and Security Layer (SASL) for the Post Office Protocol (POP3). This extension allows a POP3 client to indicate an authentication mechanism to the server, perform an authentication protocol exchange, and optionally negotiate a security layer for subsequent protocol interactions during this session. This document obsoletes RFC 1734 and replaces it as a Proposed Standard. It also updates information contained in Section 6.3 of RFC 2449. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-siemborski-rfc1734bis-00.txt To remove yourself from the IETF Announcement list, send a message to ietf-announce-request with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. 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