https://github.com/rtcweb-wg/jsep/pull/183

JSEP doesn't currently specify a default policy for rtcp-mux. We = need one.

Given people's general sentiments towards non-mux, = we should make the

default be "require".

-Ekr

--94eb2c0746262db9780523851e80-- From nobody Sun Nov 1 18:11:53 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E1C11B41E2 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 2015 18:11:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 56UT40JXD1lJ for ; Sun, 1 Nov 2015 18:11:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yk0-x22e.google.com (mail-yk0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c07::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C6C5E1B41DE for ; Sun, 1 Nov 2015 18:11:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by ykft191 with SMTP id t191so126328323ykf.0 for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2015 18:11:50 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=K7B6r7gfWdL7+FI2qHlXswqxuo94F9EUJ5yjaXr9DoQ=; b=xJMpso4ycIS526cj68LoZP9+HRPh3++ceGwo5kkSgOKitw0dZeXXuLSL71b0wKblrF +1r7KlK9zs6WRIszaYpQ4Ie9yPhq6Ud0pNYnHxk1DRlc7aZz77Gkd6OBmG846a8pgae5 QKzhKKg+d8kAvvtyz1tjtCv3gUWHFrioT1p2XrOAz6rx/RNRZ8nF57Ly0UahSpv/JVXr 61RL0RKTTmrefyN2TKNuXHFj3CJwuxhqa+25nB+av2PEFePlN/49Yw0Fj4t3CfGeKXrQ xkbjtoOsVRIrFVSUsThfiElMHyXAl8Is/NACPAmcxhV/lgp9nsuhTKnYaTkDAB2+q5ij tY/Q== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.13.230.201 with SMTP id p192mr14390534ywe.43.1446430310158; Sun, 01 Nov 2015 18:11:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.129.132.145 with HTTP; Sun, 1 Nov 2015 18:11:50 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 11:11:50 +0900 Message-ID: From: Martin Thomson To: Eric Rescorla Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Default mux policy X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2015 02:11:52 -0000 On 2 November 2015 at 10:58, Eric Rescorla wrote: > https://github.com/rtcweb-wg/jsep/pull/183 > > JSEP doesn't currently specify a default policy for rtcp-mux. We need one. > Given people's general sentiments towards non-mux, we should make the > default be "require". I note that the API doesn't expose this control. We might want to confirm, via discussion, whether we want to make rtcpmux "MUST use". My sense is that this is only really feasible in the context of bundle, as mmusic just decided. From nobody Sun Nov 1 18:19:16 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5230C1B4240 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 2015 18:19:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.388 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.388 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XjuG8i6tmN6R for ; Sun, 1 Nov 2015 18:19:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oi0-x232.google.com (mail-oi0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 76C901B423D for ; Sun, 1 Nov 2015 18:19:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by oiao187 with SMTP id o187so87789360oia.3 for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2015 18:19:05 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=xQLEvopWIjTasWMdZDYiLxRfdHNTm6Bd8IUM46JZ9X8=; b=nW7kvxPqklJ47ijM5CYXiQpaF9Kcbt4B2qt7xvYQqc3fKo0BTEo3Gd3HZAtyy78ivo v10Xo/+uNbnzrLNuopLloN8GWRwcKWFahabBVxs8kHpiZmtCsMGya695Us+7bi2s3rwr EaeNgoynMrV8Ri4Deb3V5GdaHs1YUYS0VsymzDeiyZinXpaHxtOVtsN4/37WERD+k3av DwR7tdtXRDFUP3GkG1R479IQQkKWz72UJv/aiUtRjIuAVOoRLAjAUh8Ge5VS0kkyHHLT 7GZQOLzUl3qUwe69tPHlMhD9XHUf1xN0R3l20pFPJFW1eTTIeAWHgIV2OLEYvyu4qu9j T/2Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=xQLEvopWIjTasWMdZDYiLxRfdHNTm6Bd8IUM46JZ9X8=; b=F6w/feUmUXLMAS3tias7NQagLNkMMkgklcFXFowlQsC/tBh6knijjaPkGoymFhBVez P47pjLxcFn3y68aog91LT9w87P9OKWD7iJIPTqrVPYxJT/to6T8Pj7QfpwQilIKSyWg9 vW5o6ela1UXe6W5wt1oTwN05btKkpggNKzcKE2ltWnyp0EOBXPvAvQWnFys7tz1GWhHv UFg077GuccUNR8QOF5WO5a/uygiXVMae6Xguib2ZYg/Gw03sL0UWLGLMGyMFB0EXkCjh NXNipxX2o20cdCzle2TnzTSZ/AjRBnSAIalBOhrPM+f+oqAqgkIz9q99tIlAdEUyMUMu 3OZA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkw3ALUVvSYhPmdFtfbS4V9fK+Y0iYhakSX9uUqsTV3e1fVkKVn/YObgYU8m9PfuXKqZ7nb X-Received: by 10.202.68.215 with SMTP id r206mr12359435oia.59.1446430745689; Sun, 01 Nov 2015 18:19:05 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.202.108.9 with HTTP; Sun, 1 Nov 2015 18:18:26 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References:

From: Peter Thatcher Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 18:18:26 -0800 Message-ID: To: Martin Thomson Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113dce60ca49a905238566b9 Archived-At: Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Default mux policy X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2015 02:19:08 -0000 --001a113dce60ca49a905238566b9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Oh, whoops. It looks like I never made a PR for the WebRTC API even though we had consensus for it. I'll make a W3C PR right away for it. We already implemented it in Chrome :). Whether we allow "negotiated" at all or force "require" is a separate discussion from what the default should be. On Sun, Nov 1, 2015 at 6:11 PM, Martin Thomson wrote: > On 2 November 2015 at 10:58, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > https://github.com/rtcweb-wg/jsep/pull/183 > > > > JSEP doesn't currently specify a default policy for rtcp-mux. We need > one. > > Given people's general sentiments towards non-mux, we should make the > > default be "require". > > I note that the API doesn't expose this control. > > We might want to confirm, via discussion, whether we want to make > rtcpmux "MUST use". My sense is that this is only really feasible in > the context of bundle, as mmusic just decided. > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > --001a113dce60ca49a905238566b9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Oh, whoops.=C2=A0 It looks like I never made a PR for t= he WebRTC API even though we had consensus for it.=C2=A0 I'll make a W3= C PR right away for it.=C2=A0 We already implemented it in Chrome :).

Whether we allow "negotiated" at all= or force "require" is a separate discussion from what the defaul= t should be. =C2=A0

On Sun, Nov 1, 2015 at 6:11 PM, Martin Thomson <marti= n.thomson@gmail.com> wrote:

On 2 November 2015 at 10:58, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
> https://github.com/rtcweb-wg/jsep/pull/183
>
> JSEP doesn't currently specify a default policy for rtcp-mux. We n= eed one.
> Given people's general sentiments towards non-mux, we should make = the
> default be "require".

I note that the API doesn't expose this control.

We might want to confirm, via discussion, whether we want to make
rtcpmux "MUST use".=C2=A0 My sense is that this is only really fe= asible in
the context of bundle, as mmusic just decided.

_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

--001a113dce60ca49a905238566b9-- From nobody Sun Nov 1 18:20:08 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7512B1B424C for ; Sun, 1 Nov 2015 18:20:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.277 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.277 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Z0Zp3CN_RQgl for ; Sun, 1 Nov 2015 18:20:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yk0-x234.google.com (mail-yk0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c07::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49FF91B4243 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 2015 18:20:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by ykba4 with SMTP id a4so126411712ykb.3 for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2015 18:20:05 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm_com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=wJs6I3ei1hvhLkdscc/nXsUHheyhIffKwgFOPCBi2vU=; b=DlGI0gFBHDRwrnC4QJdns5nLvQT7AEBTM6WAjwfczV6qCewauBOyngfMSy8JHbo6lW qWO5NqJDnAwThsgdul8KNim1Qdvxn/3Exd7oiq9jQB+1rQh1L0LVh8EgIkC80izbAQL0 3KaN2J/CWSy0WEvcOpZuwk66dW7uBHQHZvJkwqSyLECUGgvtLpS5pfLd6wBOH5Ct5pkn KslKp8mN7am8mwXoE5Yl5Cyqq/0ndr7U4JoSnLLqq7pxvCHXzEGtllTtmPPCvEyZnEPB WO8IYkbSegkthwpbQi3U24kd1KhhHf4poxcVrfhBCaHAvG54sCOpKVdO/U2SpjpY+te4 oegQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=wJs6I3ei1hvhLkdscc/nXsUHheyhIffKwgFOPCBi2vU=; b=BxfioM01O/9hslE0WwZH066jSaqdXVzXE/+2xJ3WO3VSHxOuJ0OgbS50OLdOBLB7L7 hWSM/z0RXWV68CH0NN4Hjj9XhhwMGJSPe+l10pLZGyscv/30K3J138cPujMHDJFe4UST DhTQ+E3FY2WyVZFI/IIRrTh9YCs6BQIs7u2TmY4fWVD2IK45Kpi6eVcGCjrtDoOOPfI4 rO/gXVrJWvn/dzTX5ViQXhR2ZLrYvlStbLQH8B56ONR6DqO2d57c5C7Gba2hW3+8mFuH 2hnFS3psOn176v43QsDkjxw6QtmEQgeI1mDrbXBcTgdoptM61PtEXx0eCl69T3qi9V1F 6KSg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkLw+OPJPaRdXM+5xh4ZcLbOifm45vhuPkPguq4L+qj7MHrH0UbswE3Xoa1CRTX38XrWTuU X-Received: by 10.129.130.6 with SMTP id s6mr14680712ywf.155.1446430805585; Sun, 01 Nov 2015 18:20:05 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.13.221.203 with HTTP; Sun, 1 Nov 2015 18:19:26 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References:

From: Eric Rescorla Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 11:19:26 +0900 Message-ID: To: Martin Thomson Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c07c35e5c1d690523856a95 Archived-At: Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Default mux policy X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2015 02:20:07 -0000 --94eb2c07c35e5c1d690523856a95 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 11:11 AM, Martin Thomson wrote: > On 2 November 2015 at 10:58, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > https://github.com/rtcweb-wg/jsep/pull/183 > > > > JSEP doesn't currently specify a default policy for rtcp-mux. We need > one. > > Given people's general sentiments towards non-mux, we should make the > > default be "require". > > I note that the API doesn't expose this control. > It would need to, in the same way that it exposes bundle. We might want to confirm, via discussion, whether we want to make > rtcpmux "MUST use". My sense is that this is only really feasible in > the context of bundle, as mmusic just decided. > I await the chairs guidance on this topic. -Ekr --94eb2c07c35e5c1d690523856a95 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 11:11 AM, Martin Thomson <<= a href=3D"mailto:martin.thomson@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">martin.thomson= @gmail.com> wrote:

On= 2 November 2015 at 10:58, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
> https://github.com/rtcweb-wg/jsep/pull/183
>
> JSEP doesn't currently specify a default policy for rtcp-mux. We n= eed one.
> Given people's general sentiments towards non-mux, we should make = the
> default be "require".

I note that the API doesn't expose this control.

It would need to, in the same way that it exposes bund= le.

We mi= ght want to confirm, via discussion, whether we want to make
rtcpmux "MUST use".=C2=A0 My sense is that this is only really fe= asible in
the context of bundle, as mmusic just decided.

I await the chairs guidance on this topic.

-Ekr=C2=A0

--94eb2c07c35e5c1d690523856a95-- From nobody Sun Nov 1 20:42:24 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E222C1B29B8 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 2015 20:42:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.388 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.388 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id y6KCMIq88auR for ; Sun, 1 Nov 2015 20:42:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ob0-x229.google.com (mail-ob0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c01::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8CBA81B29D0 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 2015 20:42:21 -0800 (PST) Received: by obctp1 with SMTP id tp1so85553731obc.2 for ; Sun, 01 Nov 2015 20:42:21 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=JPVA9O+h5OxpHmg/wtnb2b1ncRn/1FOWTcpyn2Hd0N0=; b=GhRm/RVdteZAd3T/jjLlW3Gtny97zTmpCW37u7hHo9UO7GJ105VMLkbVGypvD3sneq EWgzwOtG3qKQGUkkg/RE6JHtMVtRKNBjfzh6+Vjnsjtu+o15VFpKpUOTO3UyUCd4tELj Gh96xrWsoQzyDbPM3g26vR5hCUK2vzZBm2E7NFZA0UxLWnP25EWEkWYCU6aEGvb6pAke qFcZ/0TkKWPH6X2jt0P72OVfViQpRKSUs8jW6TxiNhNZTnXRdNaSOPy7SuT4aBDFWTjt EIthmo6cR7LOLQezE4v/rQafRZP1E2GE85fcE0ublSRF39TjcuWayJUe04BHZ2YufGhz U0CQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=JPVA9O+h5OxpHmg/wtnb2b1ncRn/1FOWTcpyn2Hd0N0=; b=UrbBDhEShAsRdrWmZ6nYRpfRIb5fegTuGEQXCrZOUgECxAY0syAElmfsqsNY8MCeDD dAdJB2Gpb93/0nJihk6tIaYTT162AfxJOnJ1LCa8gp1LAtPvrVH632cr7rF0HRSWq8Nj 2kuuX5Nvo9xtLua4rH9FkqCy3vEgkwKMhSw+DsuV9TwCRfFkQDQ0qOA5wMh29v47cNKj gNFaCCv8QXLZRB2g3AbQ5MntcbJthZlCy+cMuJLHthqWuxSLBJZNcfLsFnjNaPkHPZcn nbtazAJSDujLWEo1sMAchnnYIuk0/lmHW1TMy2QvfjBpkh81HaPkUdeKCZ3Kfrpo13Sv DBqA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkraoR6EGylQhyPPwxMxl0HZxBHJstkv/2qH/B5WNJ+ZLtMiDYJLoKzmSsLx1VqxTY/iPbJ X-Received: by 10.182.227.195 with SMTP id sc3mr12954883obc.48.1446439340908; Sun, 01 Nov 2015 20:42:20 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.202.108.9 with HTTP; Sun, 1 Nov 2015 20:41:41 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References:

From: Peter Thatcher Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2015 20:41:41 -0800 Message-ID: To: Eric Rescorla Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c2ee201ae37d0523876798 Archived-At: Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Default mux policy X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2015 04:42:23 -0000 --001a11c2ee201ae37d0523876798 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 FYI, I have an API PR: https://github.com/w3c/webrtc-pc/pull/371 On Sun, Nov 1, 2015 at 6:19 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote: > > > On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 11:11 AM, Martin Thomson > wrote: > >> On 2 November 2015 at 10:58, Eric Rescorla wrote: >> > https://github.com/rtcweb-wg/jsep/pull/183 >> > >> > JSEP doesn't currently specify a default policy for rtcp-mux. We need >> one. >> > Given people's general sentiments towards non-mux, we should make the >> > default be "require". >> >> I note that the API doesn't expose this control. >> > > It would need to, in the same way that it exposes bundle. > > > We might want to confirm, via discussion, whether we want to make >> rtcpmux "MUST use". My sense is that this is only really feasible in >> the context of bundle, as mmusic just decided. >> > > I await the chairs guidance on this topic. > > -Ekr > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > --001a11c2ee201ae37d0523876798 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

FYI, I have an API PR:=C2=A0https://github.com/w3c/webrtc-pc/pull/371

On Sun, = Nov 1, 2015 at 6:19 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:

On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 11= :11 AM, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com> wro= te:

On 2 November 2015 at 10:58, Er= ic Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.= com> wrote:
> https://github.com/rtcweb-wg/jsep/pull/183
>
> JSEP doesn't currently specify a default policy for rtcp-mux. We n= eed one.
> Given people's general sentiments towards non-mux, we should make = the
> default be "require".

I note that the API doesn't expose this control.

It would need to, in the same way that it expos= es bundle.

We might want to confirm, via discussion, whether we wan= t to make
rtcpmux "MUST use".=C2=A0 My sense is that this is only really fe= asible in
the context of bundle, as mmusic just decided.

I await the chairs guidance on this topic.

-Ekr=C2=A0

_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

--001a11c2ee201ae37d0523876798-- From nobody Mon Nov 2 12:25:30 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E5E51B37D7 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 12:25:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.911 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.911 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id n1EIoB3oy0ue for ; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 12:25:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from raoul.w3.org (raoul.w3.org [IPv6:2001:470:8b2d:804:52:12:128:0]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 472BB1B37D6 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 12:25:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from t20010c40000030808d5ac122c9386529.v6.meeting.ietf94.jp ([2001:c40:0:3080:8d5a:c122:c938:6529]) by raoul.w3.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZtLfQ-000FRV-2W; Mon, 02 Nov 2015 20:25:24 +0000 To: Justin Uberti , "rtcweb@ietf.org" References: <20151019235727.20397.15249.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com>

From: Wendy Seltzer X-Enigmail-Draft-Status: N1110 Organization: W3C Message-ID: <5637C6AD.4010708@w3.org> Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 15:25:17 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-shieh-rtcweb-ip-handling-00.txt X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 02 Nov 2015 20:25:29 -0000 Hi Justin, On 10/19/2015 08:03 PM, Justin Uberti wrote: > FYI - A rough initial attempt to document the recommended IP handling logic > for WebRTC apps. > > A new version of I-D, draft-shieh-rtcweb-ip-handling-00.txt > has been successfully submitted by Justin Uberti and posted to the > IETF repository. > > Name: draft-shieh-rtcweb-ip-handling Thanks for the analysis. I think a big piece of the challenge here is in discerning what users' purposes and intents are, as you note in the discussion of VPNs, and further, determining what protocol and API designers should do when those purposes are unclear. Adding to the challenge, privacy-seeking users benefit when they don't have to identify themselves as such, but can employ general-purpose tools to hide in the crowd. Some of those users will be technical enough to explain their needs and watch for changes that would break use cases, others won't be and won't even have conceived the problems that way. So, on to specific concerns: Saying that "local audio and video, ... are typically much more sensitive than the aforementioned IP address information" is overbroad: they're sensitive to different audiences and contexts. Moreover, if the audio/video are encrypted between peers, while the IP is revealed to intermediaries, the privacy risk is of a different nature, so coupling these permissions isn't ideal. [This distinction may be messier in practice, since the media-capture permission can't (yet) be scoped to locally-encrypted access, the user can't in fact distinguish between granting media to peers and to intermediaries.] There's also a time dimension: as new features get established, they can change the expectations of users and of privacy-application developers. A privacy-proxy dev who knows about WebRTC can add an explicit configuration or warning; one whose tools are deployed before a user-agent change couldn't have anticipated the risks. So I'd suggest good practice to require more explicit permission prompts about IP-exposure early in the feature's roll-out, so that both privacy-conscious users and those who design tools and trainings for them have the opportunity to recognize and respond to the specific privacy threats they might face. --Wendy > Revision: 00 > Title: WebRTC IP Address Handling Recommendations > Document date: 2015-10-19 > Group: Individual Submission > Pages: 6 > URL: > https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-shieh-rtcweb-ip-handling-00.txt > Status: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-shieh-rtcweb-ip-handling/ > Htmlized: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-shieh-rtcweb-ip-handling-00 > > > Abstract: > This document provides best practices for how IP addresses should be > handled by WebRTC applications. > > > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > > The IETF Secretariat > > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > -- Wendy Seltzer -- wseltzer@w3.org +1.617.715.4883 (office) Policy Counsel and Domain Lead, World Wide Web Consortium (W3C) http://wendy.seltzer.org/ +1.617.863.0613 (mobile) From nobody Mon Nov 2 20:45:29 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13A5B1B2DBF for ; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 20:45:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.388 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.388 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7FpR9YeW-TCW for ; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 20:45:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vk0-x234.google.com (mail-vk0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9C0041B2DAE for ; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 20:45:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by vkgy127 with SMTP id y127so3045134vkg.0 for ; Mon, 02 Nov 2015 20:45:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=rf0BajWVVbOtsQ4pEXNlVPMK+L0ByJO4ZAy/rkI/K1E=; b=QTjR2Lo3jXLEDwNBDunEw8ODQ1jkWA2Ko8SIyeBiCAnR3Ws+jwjIt5LxcyZRXZMOOE ElG+kuYKcxhG+at32Mi2KLeuotYC+sk3/UknZnvp3WedreCwpe2rXuQmGXtO9U+fbKKT zZpyJMaowWoIc+KzkkuetytBdxigU+d2gfOS1MwregTqfSQLqhTSWzmR5CJzcDGdZOOF glJarBkHMQIPuZYbyPFMNxt9N5I19ze3GolCYlIf40O9YecSMlv/B+x4Zf8/bVy5LpW9 hO/0HE/0uqs+38Psu39+LJkvDpJAEpp2JnAGG2rgynbtRRWWdkRegd30Kv4S8Svmnc3Z XCvw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=rf0BajWVVbOtsQ4pEXNlVPMK+L0ByJO4ZAy/rkI/K1E=; b=ZMINM1hdbfmj1lXeb0owmevXsF9CYR/Ku6AgjDjSPeKl9vF77hGQ9nqwx1aTQASNC1 tkFaCtym5nmBcZfEaaHu7GAV5cUCixgqO4P0Wjm5SWfpV1sP8cF3jeUYstmVcIJv61zr o2h+IQSHookDEpFuwFwsip50dwKfW8XLaPaUHCFuD4aXsYwoChdejuvPWujdfybopv/5 e3IrdsuVcudK0QGDafOGZbrLpnRHMFdzjaFPso0WcLY/Bzn3LtFp8gCgkA17xIbSrpCJ V4+yxgcJNGcEW8BQBQ8yh8ppUTBO4zh72chHcKMVxY0X0UCL6fmRdSFJTjpBsikmryHV +G5A== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmDc4cGUuT4sB+8kxruuqmXutOa+WC/WuQQbMMPBdswuTWzVszF5MtiLBR03EpJuOvsL4YZ X-Received: by 10.31.49.22 with SMTP id x22mr15650044vkx.60.1446525925664; Mon, 02 Nov 2015 20:45:25 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.31.69.84 with HTTP; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 20:45:06 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <5637C6AD.4010708@w3.org> References: <20151019235727.20397.15249.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com>

<5637C6AD.4010708@w3.org> From: Justin Uberti Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2015 20:45:06 -0800 Message-ID: To: Wendy Seltzer Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11440790f576e405239b8fcd Archived-At: Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-shieh-rtcweb-ip-handling-00.txt X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2015 04:45:29 -0000 --001a11440790f576e405239b8fcd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 12:25 PM, Wendy Seltzer wrote: > Hi Justin, > > On 10/19/2015 08:03 PM, Justin Uberti wrote: > > FYI - A rough initial attempt to document the recommended IP handling > logic > > for WebRTC apps. > > > > A new version of I-D, draft-shieh-rtcweb-ip-handling-00.txt > > has been successfully submitted by Justin Uberti and posted to the > > IETF repository. > > > > Name: draft-shieh-rtcweb-ip-handling > > > Thanks for the analysis. I think a big piece of the challenge here is in > discerning what users' purposes and intents are, as you note in the > discussion of VPNs, and further, determining what protocol and API > designers should do when those purposes are unclear. > > Adding to the challenge, privacy-seeking users benefit when they don't > have to identify themselves as such, but can employ general-purpose > tools to hide in the crowd. Some of those users will be technical enough > to explain their needs and watch for changes that would break use cases, > others won't be and won't even have conceived the problems that way. > > So, on to specific concerns: > > Saying that "local audio and video, ... are typically much more > sensitive than the aforementioned IP address information" is overbroad: > they're sensitive to different audiences and contexts. Moreover, if the > audio/video are encrypted between peers, while the IP is revealed to > intermediaries, the privacy risk is of a different nature, so coupling > these permissions isn't ideal. [This distinction may be messier in > practice, since the media-capture permission can't (yet) be scoped to > locally-encrypted access, the user can't in fact distinguish between > granting media to peers and to intermediaries.] > There's also a time dimension: as new features get established, they can > change the expectations of users and of privacy-application developers. > A privacy-proxy dev who knows about WebRTC can add an explicit > configuration or warning; one whose tools are deployed before a > user-agent change couldn't have anticipated the risks. > > So I'd suggest good practice to require more explicit permission prompts > about IP-exposure early in the feature's roll-out, so that both > privacy-conscious users and those who design tools and trainings for > them have the opportunity to recognize and respond to the specific > privacy threats they might face. > I'm not exactly sure what you are suggesting; WebRTC has been deployed at scale for some time, and we are now refining the policy on how we gather and expose IP addresses, especially for sites that are not using WebRTC for audio/video communication. Agree that coupling the network and audio/video permissions isn't perfect, but this is a challenging thing to convey to users, the vast majority of whom aren't using a proxy or VPN or have even heard of one. At a first step, we think coupling these permissions addresses the concern of IP address gathering on non-communication sites. > --Wendy > > > Revision: 00 > > Title: WebRTC IP Address Handling Recommendations > > Document date: 2015-10-19 > > Group: Individual Submission > > Pages: 6 > > URL: > > > https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-shieh-rtcweb-ip-handling-00.txt > > Status: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-shieh-rtcweb-ip-handling/ > > Htmlized: > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-shieh-rtcweb-ip-handling-00 > > > > > > Abstract: > > This document provides best practices for how IP addresses should be > > handled by WebRTC applications. > > > > > > > > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of > submission > > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > > > > The IETF Secretariat > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > rtcweb mailing list > > rtcweb@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > > > > -- > Wendy Seltzer -- wseltzer@w3.org +1.617.715.4883 (office) > Policy Counsel and Domain Lead, World Wide Web Consortium (W3C) > http://wendy.seltzer.org/ +1.617.863.0613 (mobile) > > --001a11440790f576e405239b8fcd Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 12:25 PM, Wendy Seltzer <wseltzer@w3.org><= /span> wrote:

Hi Justin,

On 10/19/2015 08:03 PM, Justin Uberti wrote:
> FYI - A rough initial attempt to document the recommended IP handling = logic
> for WebRTC apps.
>
> A new version of I-D, draft-shieh-rtcweb-ip-handling-00.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Justin Uberti and posted to the
> IETF repository.
>
> Name:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-shieh-rtcweb-ip-ha= ndling

Thanks for the analysis. I think a big piece of the challenge here i= s in
discerning what users' purposes and intents are, as you note in the
discussion of VPNs, and further, determining what protocol and API
designers should do when those purposes are unclear.

Adding to the challenge, privacy-seeking users benefit when they don't<= br> have to identify themselves as such, but can employ general-purpose
tools to hide in the crowd. Some of those users will be technical enough to explain their needs and watch for changes that would break use cases, others won't be and won't even have conceived the problems that way= .

So, on to specific concerns:

Saying that "local audio and video, ... are typically much more
sensitive than the aforementioned IP address information" is overbroad= :
they're sensitive to different audiences and contexts. Moreover, if the=
audio/video are encrypted between peers, while the IP is revealed to
intermediaries, the privacy risk is of a different nature, so coupling
these permissions isn't ideal. [This distinction may be messier in
practice, since the media-capture permission can't (yet) be scoped to locally-encrypted access, the user can't in fact distinguish between granting media to peers and to intermediaries.]

There's also a time dimension: as new features get established, they ca= n
change the expectations of users and of privacy-application developers.
A privacy-proxy dev who knows about WebRTC can add an explicit
configuration or warning; one whose tools are deployed before a
user-agent change couldn't have anticipated the risks.

So I'd suggest good practice to require more explicit permission prompt= s
about IP-exposure early in the feature's roll-out, so that both
privacy-conscious users and those who design tools and trainings for
them have the opportunity to recognize and respond to the specific
privacy threats they might face.

I'= m not exactly sure what you are suggesting; WebRTC has been deployed at sca= le for some time, and we are now refining the policy on how we gather and e= xpose IP addresses, especially for sites that are not using WebRTC for audi= o/video communication.

Agree that coupling the net= work and audio/video permissions isn't perfect, but this is a challengi= ng thing to convey to users, the vast majority of whom aren't using a p= roxy or VPN or have even heard of one. At a first step, we think coupling t= hese permissions addresses the concern of IP address gathering on non-commu= nication sites.

--Wendy

> Revision:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A000
> Title:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 WebRTC IP Address Handling Re= commendations
> Document date:=C2=A0 2015-10-19
> Group:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Individual Submission
> Pages:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 6
> URL:
> https://www.ietf.org/= internet-drafts/draft-shieh-rtcweb-ip-handling-00.txt
> Status:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/do= c/draft-shieh-rtcweb-ip-handling/
> Htmlized:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-= shieh-rtcweb-ip-handling-00
>
>
> Abstract:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 This document provides best practices for how IP addresse= s should be
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 handled by WebRTC applications.
>
>
>
>
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of subm= ission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >
> The IETF Secretariat
>
>
>

> _____________________________= __________________
> rtcweb mailing list
> rtcweb@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb >

--
Wendy Seltzer -- wseltzer@w3.org +1.617.715.4883 (= office)
Policy Counsel and Domain Lead, World Wide Web Consortium (W3C)
= http://wendy.seltzer.org/=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 +1.617.863.0613 (mobile)

--001a11440790f576e405239b8fcd-- From nobody Mon Nov 2 21:43:25 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC4A21AD0D6; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 21:43:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3jV0gvXAecPo; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 21:43:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from sesbmg22.ericsson.net (sesbmg22.ericsson.net [193.180.251.48]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B8F6F1AD049; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 21:43:17 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb30-f79626d000006adf-38-56384973e098 Received: from ESESSHC008.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.183.42]) by sesbmg22.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 6B.E0.27359.37948365; Tue, 3 Nov 2015 06:43:15 +0100 (CET) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.44) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.3.248.2; Tue, 3 Nov 2015 06:43:13 +0100 To: IETF AVTCore WG From: Magnus Westerlund Message-ID: <5638496B.3040009@ericsson.com> Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2015 14:43:07 +0900 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFtrDLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM2K7lm6xp0WYwfImW4uXPSvZLW5sXsBk sfrmBzaLtf/a2R1YPJYs+cnk8eXyZ7YApigum5TUnMyy1CJ9uwSujNVXF7EVvOSoePjiPnMD 4wL2LkZODgkBE4md7beZIGwxiQv31rN1MXJxCAkcZpS4/302lLOMUeLy/l8sIFUiAkoSOyZt YwaxmQVKJdbfnQLWLSSgIbH402Ewm03AQuLmj0agZg4OYQEXiasX3EDCvALaEuu/zwQbwyKg InHvwnFGEFtUIEbi/aZVjBA1ghInZz5hAWllFrCXeLC1DGKTvETz1tnMEJu0JRqaOlgnMArM QtIxC6FjFpKOBYzMqxhFi1OLk3LTjYz0Uosyk4uL8/P08lJLNjECw/Tglt8GOxhfPnc8xCjA wajEw7thk3mYEGtiWXFl7iFGCQ5mJRHel1wWYUK8KYmVValF+fFFpTmpxYcYpTlYlMR5m5ke hAoJpCeWpGanphakFsFkmTg4pRoYe6+8qso3zVwkrH6pQ+Kq2sGfKz9uX3Fj5cRO5vwDk6+X TTYRf6wmc0y9dvXdzm+/xBVrz/iLeJxeK7mw3Igp68LMFcccj5grJ5x5yaPTNV2nXNfUJkFS f9P99X0/WDc6nO3nmHp/1aLrYU6mu1UaS9ekxPRpXzS8P8W7Oc1aWufK5TzJPaz2SizFGYmG WsxFxYkAEOyihU8CAAA= Archived-At: Cc: rmcat@ietf.org, "rtcweb@ietf.org" , draft-ietf-avtcore-rtp-circuit-breakers@tools.ietf.org Subject: [rtcweb] WG last call for draft-ietf-avtcore-rtp-circuit-breakers-11 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: IETF AVTCore WG List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2015 05:43:20 -0000 WG, (CC RMCAT and RTCWEB) This starts the 6 week WG last call on "Multimedia Congestion Control: Circuit Breakers for Unicast RTP Sessions" https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-avtcore-rtp-circuit-breakers/ We are doing a 6 week last call to give people time to review and perform verification of the latest updates also in implementations and simulations. Please provide feedback not later than 16th of December. We appreciate all type of messages, even short, "read it, and have no comments". We appreciate even more people that has performed any type of verification of the solution. Cheers Magnus Westerlund AVTCORE WG chair ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287" F�r�gatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Mon Nov 2 21:51:06 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C17AB1AD0B1 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 21:51:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.378 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.378 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iwFBg2K6dKOu for ; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 21:51:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf0-x22d.google.com (mail-lf0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B578B1AD0AE for ; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 21:51:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by lfbf136 with SMTP id f136so5909792lfb.0 for ; Mon, 02 Nov 2015 21:51:03 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cdt.org; s=google; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=qY/WAodzRn7ByymLvhHJGPgfmXDYsBfmrEMKr/VNLVQ=; b=GBxR8ywpo6uEqhxT6Dl+aZ8+h8dfACjwgMvXggviBTQVsii+avs40S53MHBMg0pbQZ Djp+TqiWb7mhRwtIAGCxR4JMko3IAuZz1FVICTH2TeSPfAY+E1eFJpLbkk+27E2gbXff 7H/McEJ3wWSJbwfjlaWL8U/tVUkcqmRZW5e74= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=qY/WAodzRn7ByymLvhHJGPgfmXDYsBfmrEMKr/VNLVQ=; b=kOSzLTb4EGYO9Qse9gnOpg4xg0PskmAB2Ej4r19+pdbsWEIyaLsUueFjn3/c9pV3Ee UHhbI4J/23ExlkzwPILEf1N0dUSQFMTt5Q0sKvXxQpZDx/QeSFetra1vYwQVVnrVqySn 1c0T/rpg80BdaqFrqCZxZJTx7G9rqDZ3peNdkVxHRWuEOYvKQd2hHzH/rMvw4IrO1ymm zddRjQNwHNWFzACJmlF9UMhFE4lBSHaWhcg1R30ED+DasL3yLQHVIT2ZmC4kne/b22XM c3fB2vkhkE2+TPbr1hLH5WctlsaI/ABexpu+pzqT8WUuUR21BtNWi9sFmz1oARnmtJIw cp1Q== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnGKNrlJpVMnHDkJ7X3YDaKGslydGGCcX80kub9IXKGI6prjOWv0CWDdxwgQYci+jLZtMDa X-Received: by 10.112.64.72 with SMTP id m8mr11470777lbs.41.1446529862927; Mon, 02 Nov 2015 21:51:02 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.25.141.77 with HTTP; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 21:50:43 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <20151019235727.20397.15249.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com>

<5637C6AD.4010708@w3.org> From: Joseph Lorenzo Hall Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2015 14:50:43 +0900 Message-ID: To: Justin Uberti Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-shieh-rtcweb-ip-handling-00.txt X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2015 05:51:05 -0000 On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 1:45 PM, Justin Uberti wrote: > > Agree that coupling the network and audio/video permissions isn't perfect, > but this is a challenging thing to convey to users, the vast majority of > whom aren't using a proxy or VPN or have even heard of one. At a first step, > we think coupling these permissions addresses the concern of IP address > gathering on non-communication sites. And I'm not sure I see a way to not couple those permissions that doesn't have drawbacks that UAs seemingly can't accept. Wendy, are you suggesting some modification to the Mode 1 in the document or a new mode? Justin and co-author: I'm glad you guys have gotten to this point and written this up, thanks! From nobody Mon Nov 2 22:01:37 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32A6F1B29B2 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 22:01:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CeQ-C7Q_KUnp for ; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 22:01:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from sesbmg22.ericsson.net (sesbmg22.ericsson.net [193.180.251.48]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D6F841AD365 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 2015 22:01:33 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb30-f79626d000006adf-29-56384dbb4851 Received: from ESESSHC004.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.183.30]) by sesbmg22.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 12.04.27359.BBD48365; Tue, 3 Nov 2015 07:01:32 +0100 (CET) Received: from ESESSMB209.ericsson.se ([169.254.9.202]) by ESESSHC004.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.30]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Tue, 3 Nov 2015 07:01:12 +0100 From: Christer Holmberg To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: RTCPWEB: Support of only mux, or both mux and non-mux? Thread-Index: AdEV/MiY1E69Spl6T5uusFbF7yOlyg== Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2015 06:01:12 +0000 Message-ID: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37BD1BC7@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.149] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37BD1BC7ESESSMB209erics_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFvrELMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM2K7nO4eX4swg+61XBZr/7WzOzB6LFny kymAMYrLJiU1J7MstUjfLoErY/bLLcwFe60qpi26ztjA+Neoi5GTQ0LAROLm0/fsELaYxIV7 69m6GLk4hAQOM0pcOnWZGcJZzCgx8c9CoAwHB5uAhUT3P22QBhEBdYnLDy+ANQsL2EtsbO9g hIi7SEx4fYIJwtaTWPp0LTOIzSKgIrGmpYUFxOYV8JWY3X0GrJ4RaPH3U2vA6pkFxCVuPZnP BHGQgMSSPeeZIWxRiZeP/7FC2EoSaw9vZ4Goz5fYN3ESO8RMQYmTM5+wTGAUmoVk1CwkZbOQ lEHEdSQW7P7EBmFrSyxb+JoZxj5z4DETsvgCRvZVjKLFqcVJuelGRnqpRZnJxcX5eXp5qSWb GIExcXDLb4MdjC+fOx5iFOBgVOLh3bDJPEyINbGsuDL3EKMEB7OSCO9LLoswId6UxMqq1KL8 +KLSnNTiQ4zSHCxK4rzNTA9ChQTSE0tSs1NTC1KLYLJMHJxSDYyK3ts/ndtfKWB8TONks9lF 0fyMHY9O7JJKqGxbOsH+0P+lvFeLJsVOnmnXMNXxX7jgH9EDr26u5xKqeryKMa4tceKphId+ K5jO/JWcYfBG0i5wrfGGTuv6V+kvOH//aPX98uza7uDiu7Uhbnp3D1ee5Luq8Kj9Q/rCPt3p hetqVgs9XrvLQ3aVEktxRqKhFnNRcSIAhUPZb4UCAAA= Archived-At: Subject: [rtcweb] RTCPWEB: Support of only mux, or both mux and non-mux? X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2015 06:01:36 -0000 --_000_7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37BD1BC7ESESSMB209erics_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Today, in RTCWEB, we decided that support of NON-RTP/RTCP mux is going to b= e optional - also for non-BUNDLE. One of my comments was how we in SDP are going to signal whether an endpoin= t supports ONLY RTCP/RTP-mux, or BOTH mux and non-mux. One idea was to only include ICE components for RTP if only mux is supporte= d, but it was commented that it doesn't work with trickle. Another idea would be to always include the SDP rtcp attribute in the offer= and: - If the endpoint supports ONLY mux, the rtcp attribute value woul= d have the same port value as the m- line port - If the endpoint supports BOTH mux and non-mux, the rtcp attribut= e would have the RTCP port (even if it's RTP+1) (The SDP rtcp-mux attribute would obviously always be present in the offer) Regards, Christer --_000_7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37BD1BC7ESESSMB209erics_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,

Today, in RTCWEB, we decided that support of NON-RTP= /RTCP mux is going to be optional - also for non-BUNDLE.

One of my comments was how we in SDP are going to si= gnal whether an endpoint supports ONLY RTCP/RTP-mux, or BOTH mux and non-mu= x.

One idea was to only include ICE components for RTP = if only mux is supported, but it was commented that it doesn’t work w= ith trickle.

Another idea would be to always include the SDP rtcp= attribute in the offer and:

- &= nbsp; If the endpoint supports ONLY mux, the rtcp attribu= te value would have the same port value as the m- line port

- &= nbsp; If the endpoint supports BOTH mux and non-mux, the = rtcp attribute would have the RTCP port (even if it’s RTP+1)=

(The SDP rtcp-mux attribute would obviously always b= e present in the offer)

Regards,

Christer

--_000_7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37BD1BC7ESESSMB209erics_-- From nobody Tue Nov 3 17:11:18 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F48B1A8837 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 2015 17:11:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id czr06PyBhg94 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 2015 17:11:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yk0-x22f.google.com (mail-yk0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c07::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 050451A87E9 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 2015 17:11:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by ykba4 with SMTP id a4so47120580ykb.3 for ; Tue, 03 Nov 2015 17:11:13 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=IAe+foRDnDPMnbMaBMqW/zRRTfHNZWoVwLqzRaHqi1s=; b=021p9a5IKPpq6Jhw+ZSXscxaxB9Y15I7FLKQboJ7VsQXmtCMicAuziR+nsi6zPaZsg ym1myvesWHguXYG52bp2IKV3NC4AwJ/n/YSrVigwhaaCBsiOm/3qbkYGVf6YCRUqq9ki 7U4SwPZJqt0uQqZLjcAckAwkkTl+YMjwJ83RyMdl2sGJ+p43LdN8/zEPTCBRJPcBWMTR W1zV1PfpJMtr7ULAgUCiFW9TOHDNW+0z7T4+08/ymj4o9Ikqn4yF6KGiWSSlkNPB17aC YS9eeF82y8eoytkZ8N1sYZwVmZV7v2zrHH20v4y/WKFwrfXm28hr6xPGXYYgTAIV7b50 gAwQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.13.204.207 with SMTP id o198mr25743792ywd.183.1446599473312; Tue, 03 Nov 2015 17:11:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.129.132.145 with HTTP; Tue, 3 Nov 2015 17:11:13 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37BD1BC7@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37BD1BC7@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2015 10:11:13 +0900 Message-ID: From: Martin Thomson To: Christer Holmberg Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] RTCPWEB: Support of only mux, or both mux and non-mux? X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2015 01:11:16 -0000 On 3 November 2015 at 15:01, Christer Holmberg wrote: > - If the endpoint supports ONLY mux, the rtcp attribute value wo= uld > have the same port value as the m- line port > > - If the endpoint supports BOTH mux and non-mux, the rtcp attrib= ute > would have the RTCP port (even if it=E2=80=99s RTP+1) That seems fine to me. From nobody Tue Nov 3 17:24:41 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80B8B1A886B for ; Tue, 3 Nov 2015 17:24:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.911 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.911 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Zh59MVQxRcox for ; Tue, 3 Nov 2015 17:24:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from raoul.w3.org (raoul.w3.org [IPv6:2001:470:8b2d:804:52:12:128:0]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EC7701A8858 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 2015 17:24:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from t20010c4000003040c438d8c7b775aef7.v6.meeting.ietf94.jp ([2001:c40:0:3040:c438:d8c7:b775:aef7]) by raoul.w3.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1ZtmnT-000Ehk-Kx; Wed, 04 Nov 2015 01:24:34 +0000 To: Justin Uberti References: <20151019235727.20397.15249.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com>

<5637C6AD.4010708@w3.org> From: Wendy Seltzer X-Enigmail-Draft-Status: N1110 Organization: W3C Message-ID: <56395E0D.2030008@w3.org> Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2015 20:23:25 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-shieh-rtcweb-ip-handling-00.txt X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2015 01:24:39 -0000 On 11/02/2015 11:45 PM, Justin Uberti wrote: > On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 12:25 PM, Wendy Seltzer wrote: > >> Hi Justin, >> >> On 10/19/2015 08:03 PM, Justin Uberti wrote: >>> FYI - A rough initial attempt to document the recommended IP handling >> logic >>> for WebRTC apps. >>> >>> A new version of I-D, draft-shieh-rtcweb-ip-handling-00.txt >>> has been successfully submitted by Justin Uberti and posted to the >>> IETF repository. >>> >>> Name: draft-shieh-rtcweb-ip-handling >> >> >> Thanks for the analysis. I think a big piece of the challenge here is in >> discerning what users' purposes and intents are, as you note in the >> discussion of VPNs, and further, determining what protocol and API >> designers should do when those purposes are unclear. >> >> Adding to the challenge, privacy-seeking users benefit when they don't >> have to identify themselves as such, but can employ general-purpose >> tools to hide in the crowd. Some of those users will be technical enough >> to explain their needs and watch for changes that would break use cases, >> others won't be and won't even have conceived the problems that way. >> >> So, on to specific concerns: >> >> Saying that "local audio and video, ... are typically much more >> sensitive than the aforementioned IP address information" is overbroad: >> they're sensitive to different audiences and contexts. Moreover, if the >> audio/video are encrypted between peers, while the IP is revealed to >> intermediaries, the privacy risk is of a different nature, so coupling >> these permissions isn't ideal. [This distinction may be messier in >> practice, since the media-capture permission can't (yet) be scoped to >> locally-encrypted access, the user can't in fact distinguish between >> granting media to peers and to intermediaries.] > > >> There's also a time dimension: as new features get established, they can >> change the expectations of users and of privacy-application developers. >> A privacy-proxy dev who knows about WebRTC can add an explicit >> configuration or warning; one whose tools are deployed before a >> user-agent change couldn't have anticipated the risks. >> >> So I'd suggest good practice to require more explicit permission prompts >> about IP-exposure early in the feature's roll-out, so that both >> privacy-conscious users and those who design tools and trainings for >> them have the opportunity to recognize and respond to the specific >> privacy threats they might face. >> > > I'm not exactly sure what you are suggesting; WebRTC has been deployed at > scale for some time, and we are now refining the policy on how we gather > and expose IP addresses, especially for sites that are not using WebRTC for > audio/video communication. The last paragraph was aimed mostly at thinking in advance about the next new privacy-impacting feature. > > Agree that coupling the network and audio/video permissions isn't perfect, > but this is a challenging thing to convey to users, the vast majority of > whom aren't using a proxy or VPN or have even heard of one. At a first > step, we think coupling these permissions addresses the concern of IP > address gathering on non-communication sites. Yes, that's a good step forward, and it may be the most practical response here. Let's not describe the permissions as coupled *because* one is "more sensitive" than the other. Different users will have different sensitivities. If the limits of the dialogs mean that they're combined in browser UX, then at least we're providing the hooks for extensions and config-file hacking to de-couple them. Tool-providers and trainers can help users who need the differing configs to get them. Thanks, --Wendy > > > >> --Wendy >> >>> Revision: 00 >>> Title: WebRTC IP Address Handling Recommendations >>> Document date: 2015-10-19 >>> Group: Individual Submission >>> Pages: 6 >>> URL: >>> >> https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-shieh-rtcweb-ip-handling-00.txt >>> Status: >>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-shieh-rtcweb-ip-handling/ >>> Htmlized: >>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-shieh-rtcweb-ip-handling-00 >>> >>> >>> Abstract: >>> This document provides best practices for how IP addresses should be >>> handled by WebRTC applications. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of >> submission >>> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >>> >>> The IETF Secretariat >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> rtcweb mailing list >>> rtcweb@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb >>> >> >> >> -- >> Wendy Seltzer -- wseltzer@w3.org +1.617.715.4883 (office) >> Policy Counsel and Domain Lead, World Wide Web Consortium (W3C) >> http://wendy.seltzer.org/ +1.617.863.0613 (mobile) >> >> > -- Wendy Seltzer -- wseltzer@w3.org +1.617.715.4883 (office) Policy Counsel and Domain Lead, World Wide Web Consortium (W3C) http://wendy.seltzer.org/ +1.617.863.0613 (mobile) From nobody Tue Nov 3 22:55:19 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8D3F1AD06D for ; Tue, 3 Nov 2015 22:55:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OnRe04DXPVWV for ; Tue, 3 Nov 2015 22:55:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from sesbmg23.ericsson.net (sesbmg23.ericsson.net [193.180.251.37]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 52AA21AD06A for ; Tue, 3 Nov 2015 22:55:16 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb25-f79a26d00000149a-c6-5639abd2a631 Received: from ESESSHC005.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.183.33]) by sesbmg23.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 89.40.05274.2DBA9365; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 07:55:14 +0100 (CET) Received: from ESESSMB209.ericsson.se ([169.254.9.202]) by ESESSHC005.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.33]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 07:54:14 +0100 From: Christer Holmberg To: Martin Thomson Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] RTCPWEB: Support of only mux, or both mux and non-mux? Thread-Index: AdEV/MiY1E69Spl6T5uusFbF7yOlygAmIgWAAA4GeuA= Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2015 06:54:13 +0000 Message-ID: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37BD5DC1@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37BD1BC7@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.150] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFmpjkeLIzCtJLcpLzFFi42KZGbFdUffSasswg/YTKhbXzvxjtFj7r53d gclj56y77B5LlvxkCmCK4rJJSc3JLEst0rdL4Mr48fEsW8EmtoqTm7YxNjDOYeti5OCQEDCR uNoU1MXICWSKSVy4tx4ozMUhJHCYUeL78WusEM5iRollCx4xgzSwCVhIdP/TBmkQEdCVWHT2 ATuIzSygLnFn8TkwW1jAR+Jrwy9WiBpfibfn37FD2FYSfUsuMIPYLAIqEjvWvWMEsXmBaj7v ecsOsWsKo8Ss/4/AmjkFAiUe9h9lAbEZga77fmoNE8QycYlbT+YzQVwtILFkz3lmCFtU4uXj f6wQtpLEiu2XGEFuZhbQlFi/Sx+iVVFiSvdDdoi9ghInZz5hmcAoNgvJ1FkIHbOQdMxC0rGA kWUVo2hxanFSbrqRsV5qUWZycXF+nl5easkmRmDsHNzyW3UH4+U3jocYBTgYlXh4DVgsw4RY E8uKK3MPMUpwMCuJ8DYtAQrxpiRWVqUW5ccXleakFh9ilOZgURLnbWZ6ECokkJ5YkpqdmlqQ WgSTZeLglGpg1BPmZKteeurCvGt1bp0pWU5d13znzBM59KnKfOUvs+b7HuolzCciEteY+sop hNYuYLmxK/LtrR9d+cfXy1sw9j5dv41VRZ/H7Lap4L8Lx9bxtJ6QYM9qcln9SOpo3o0r854F yq49Mv/pthv2va52zVNjuuxWRLf7/F1jxlXCIbCvN99N4t5aJZbijERDLeai4kQAMYylf5kC AAA= Archived-At: Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] RTCPWEB: Support of only mux, or both mux and non-mux? 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[2001:c40:0:3024:f10a:3713:71e8:9136]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id in6sm4458180pbd.86.2015.11.04.18.19.13 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 04 Nov 2015 18:19:14 -0800 (PST) From: Sean Turner Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_133CFFAA-06D4-4550-87D5-FDCC01537D93" Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 11:19:11 +0900 References: <561056B0.8080700@gondrom.org> To: rtcweb@ietf.org Message-Id: <3FD111FD-30FC-441D-BB26-258310C639FD@sn3rd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.1 $3096.5$) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3096.5) Archived-At: Subject: [rtcweb] Fwd: secdir review of draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch-11 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2015 02:19:27 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_133CFFAA-06D4-4550-87D5-FDCC01537D93 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Apologies I should have forwarded this earlier (flaked that the .all = doesn=E2=80=99t include the WG). spt > Begin forwarded message: >=20 > From: Tobias Gondrom > Date: October 04, 2015 at 07:29:04 GMT+9 > To: secdir@ietf.org, iesg@ietf.org, = draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch.all@tools.ietf.org > Cc: dkg@fifthhorseman.net > Subject: secdir review of draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch-11 >=20 > I have reviewed this document as part of the security directorate's = ongoing effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG. = These comments were written primarily for the benefit of the security = area directors. Document editors and WG chairs should treat these = comments just like any other last call comments. >=20 > The draft aims for proposed standards and defines the security = architecture for WebRTC. >=20 > The document appears in reasonably good shape.=20 > There are still several open issues (TBDs) in the document that need = to be completed before publication. >=20 > Below a series of my own comments, discuss elements and questions for = your consideration.=20 >=20 > Comment: > section 3 Trust Model:=20 > s/rooted in the browser/rooted in the browser and the underlying = operating system > (the requirements for the integrity of the system underneath the = browser does not go away. Furthermore the browser does rely on some = trust and crypto functionality provided by the underlying OS.) >=20 > Question: what security risks does the connection from Bob to IdP1 = (the IdP from Alice) create?=20 >=20 > DISCUSS: Section 4.1:=20 > "This does not require a security check: JS from any origin is allowed = to get this far." > Comment: Maybe the wording is unprecise, or if it is intended as I = read it than I beg to disagree. There are several security concerns if = that would be the case. Just a few examples, I am sure there are plenty = more:=20 > 1. privacy concerns if you can trigger someone initiating a call > 2. Denial of service scenarios, creation of PeerConnections or the = scenario of "the great cannon of China" comes to mind, in which you can = let other people flood a recipient with call requests.=20 >=20 > COMMENT: Section 4.1. paragraph 6:=20 > s/preferably over TLS/it SHOULD use TLS.=20 > If possible, I would even go for "MUST", but I am not sure about = whether there are legitimate use cases that require non-TLS?=20 > (e.g. we want avoid resource consuming, spoofing and replay attacks) >=20 > COMMENT: Section 4.3. last paragraph:=20 > "Even if they do not use an IdP, as long as they have minimal trust in = the signaling service not to perform a man-in-the-middle attack, they = know that their communications are secure against the signaling service = as well (i.e., that the signaling service cannot mount a passive attack = on the communications)." > =3D> This reads confusing. IMO if they are not using an IdP, they can = not assume that their communications are secure against the signalling = service MitM attack.=20 >=20 > Question on Section 5.2 > "Requests for one-time camera/microphone access." does the "one-time = access" have a time-out after some time, or max duration? How long would = that be?=20 >=20 > At end of Section 5.2: there is still an open issue to be resolved by = the WG. Note: It definitely requires a higher / different level of = explicit consent, as it allows access to a third resource.=20 >=20 > Question on Section 5.5.:=20 > Do we need to assert that the client provide UI information from which = peer the current stream is coming from?=20 > Assuming you have 3 or more peers (A, B and C) in a meeting, can you = avoid that B replays the voice of A in effect spoofing him to C on the = application layer?=20 >=20 > Question on section 5.6.5.:=20 > does this naming scheme also consider subdomains?=20 > The example in the last paragraph seems to normalize = identity.example.com to = https://example.com/.well-known/idp-proxy/example = ?=20 >=20 > Question on section 5.7.1.:=20 > Do you need to support UNICODE characters for identities?=20 > Preferably, I would like to avoid such, as that could cause it's own = set of potential problems with similar looking codepoints.... >=20 > Section 6: Security Considerations > refers to draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-08 which is scheduled to be = reviewed by another member of Secdir.=20 > Please note that I have browsed the referred draft but did not conduct = a deep review of the other ID. Some of my questions above might have = been addressed there.=20 >=20 > Comment:=20 > Section 6.3. states that "On the other hand, signing the entire = message severely restricts the capabilities of the calling application, = so there are difficult tradeoffs here." Actually my assumption was that = the entire signalling message would be signed. What are the implied = restrictions that prevent that from happening? Is there a way we could = allow for that?=20 >=20 > Question on Section 6.4.2. IdP Well-known URI > Assuming a server that does not host an IdP nor is aware of the = special semantics of this "well-known URI".=20 > Would an attacker with access to this initially empty structure be = able to create a working IdP and assert identities for the domain of = that server that might supersede other 3rd-party IdP servers? =20 >=20 > COMMENT on section 6.4.5.1 and 6.4.5.2:=20 > It seems the text is suggestion that popup blocking and third party = cookie blocking are not compatible with using an IdP. I would recommend = a statement that sites SHOULD (MUST?) implement in a way that they still = function with client side popup blocking and third party cookie = blocking.=20 >=20 > A general question from a risk perspective:=20 > I wonder whether an IdP can by providing the identity assertions for = the users determine a very detailed record of all call metadata (time, = src, dst, ...) of all communications for a user. Are there any = abstraction mechanisms we could deploy to limit that exposure to the = IdP? On the other hand, is the identity assertion linked to a system = time, to avoid later replay attacks?=20 >=20 > Thank you and best regards. >=20 > Tobias >=20 --Apple-Mail=_133CFFAA-06D4-4550-87D5-FDCC01537D93 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Apologies I should have forwarded this earlier (flaked that = the .all doesn=E2=80=99t include the WG).

spt

Begin = forwarded message:

From: = Tobias Gondrom <tobias.gondrom@gondrom.org>
Date: = October 04, 2015 at 07:29:04 = GMT+9
To: = secdir@ietf.org, iesg@ietf.org, draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch.all@tools.ietf.org
Cc: = dkg@fifthhorseman.net
Subject: = secdir review of = draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch-11

=20 =20
I have reviewed this document as = part of the security directorate's ongoing effort to review all IETF documents being processed by the IESG. These comments were written primarily for the benefit of the security area directors. Document editors and WG chairs should treat these comments just like any other last call comments.

The draft aims for proposed standards and defines the security architecture for WebRTC.

The document appears in reasonably good shape.
There are still several open issues (TBDs) in the document that need to be completed before publication.

Below a series of my own comments, discuss elements and questions for your consideration.

Comment:
section 3 Trust Model:
s/rooted in the browser/rooted in the browser and the underlying operating system
(the requirements for the integrity of the system underneath the browser does not go away. Furthermore the browser does rely on some trust and crypto functionality provided by the underlying OS.)

Question: what security risks does the connection from Bob to IdP1 (the IdP from Alice) create?

DISCUSS: Section 4.1:
"This does not require a security check: JS from any origin is allowed to get this far."
Comment: Maybe the wording is unprecise, or if it is intended as I read it than I beg to disagree. There are several security concerns if that would be the case. Just a few examples, I am sure there are plenty more:
1. privacy concerns if you can trigger someone initiating a = call
2. Denial of service scenarios, creation of PeerConnections or the scenario of "the great cannon of China" comes to mind, in which you can let other people flood a recipient with call requests.

COMMENT: Section 4.1. paragraph 6:
s/preferably over TLS/it SHOULD use TLS.
If possible, I would even go for "MUST", but I am not sure about whether there are legitimate use cases that require non-TLS?
(e.g. we want avoid resource consuming, spoofing and replay attacks)

COMMENT: Section 4.3. last paragraph:
"Even if they do not use an IdP, as long as they have minimal trust in the signaling service not to perform a man-in-the-middle attack, they know that their communications are secure against the signaling service as well (i.e., that the signaling service cannot mount a passive attack on the communications)."
=3D> This reads confusing. IMO if they are not using an IdP, = they can not assume that their communications are secure against the signalling service MitM attack.

Question on Section 5.2
"Requests for one-time camera/microphone access." does the "one-time access" have a time-out after some time, or max duration? How long would that be?

At end of Section 5.2: there is still an open issue to be resolved by the WG. Note: It definitely requires a higher / different level of explicit consent, as it allows access to a third resource.

Question on Section 5.5.:
Do we need to assert that the client provide UI information from which peer the current stream is coming from?
Assuming you have 3 or more peers (A, B and C) in a meeting, can you avoid that B replays the voice of A in effect spoofing him to C on the application layer?

Question on section 5.6.5.:
does this naming scheme also consider subdomains?
The example in the last paragraph seems to normalize identity.example.com to https://example= .com/.well-known/idp-proxy/example?

Question on section 5.7.1.:
Do you need to support UNICODE characters for identities?
Preferably, I would like to avoid such, as that could cause it's own set of potential problems with similar looking codepoints....

Section 6: Security Considerations
refers to draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-08 which is scheduled to be reviewed by another member of Secdir.
Please note that I have browsed the referred draft but did not conduct a deep review of the other ID. Some of my questions above might have been addressed there.

Comment:
Section 6.3. states that "On the other hand, signing the entire message severely restricts the capabilities of the calling application, so there are difficult tradeoffs here." Actually my assumption was that the entire signalling message would be signed. What are the implied restrictions that prevent that from happening? Is there a way we could allow for that?
=
Question on Section 6.4.2. IdP Well-known URI
Assuming a server that does not host an IdP nor is aware of the special semantics of this "well-known URI".
Would an attacker with access to this initially empty structure be able to create a working IdP and assert identities for the domain of that server that might supersede other 3rd-party IdP servers?

COMMENT on section 6.4.5.1 and 6.4.5.2:
It seems the text is suggestion that popup blocking and third party cookie blocking are not compatible with using an IdP. I would recommend a statement that sites SHOULD (MUST?) implement in a way that they still function with client side popup blocking and third party cookie blocking.

A general question from a risk perspective:
I wonder whether an IdP can by providing the identity assertions for the users determine a very detailed record of all call metadata (time, src, dst, ...) of all communications for a user. Are there any abstraction mechanisms we could deploy to limit that exposure to the IdP? On the other hand, is the identity assertion linked to a system time, to avoid later replay attacks?

Thank you and best regards.

Tobias

= --Apple-Mail=_133CFFAA-06D4-4550-87D5-FDCC01537D93-- From nobody Wed Nov 4 21:59:05 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFE091B3A3B for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 21:59:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YcqSMQ7dwXLB for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 21:59:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from sessmg22.ericsson.net (sessmg22.ericsson.net [193.180.251.58]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C0A231B3A38 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 21:59:01 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb3a-f79136d0000071e2-b1-563af0233dcc Received: from ESESSHC003.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.125]) by sessmg22.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 0B.E9.29154.320FA365; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 06:58:59 +0100 (CET) Received: from ESESSMB209.ericsson.se ([169.254.9.202]) by ESESSHC003.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.27]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 06:58:59 +0100 From: Christer Holmberg To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-holmberg-mmusic-mux-exlusive-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHRF46VcOK5EGyVV0CmTps0O2QosJ6M7kdw Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 05:58:58 +0000 Message-ID: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37BDA7CA@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> References: <20151105055530.18448.860.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <20151105055530.18448.860.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.150] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFmpmkeLIzCtJLcpLzFFi42KZGfG3Vlf5g1WYwfcuU4trZ/4xWqz9187u wOSxc9Zddo8lS34yBTBFcdmkpOZklqUW6dslcGXsffeVreCNaMW0R83sDYxLRLsYOTkkBEwk bq49wg5hi0lcuLeerYuRi0NI4AijxKEzK5lBEkICixklHh+v72Lk4GATsJDo/qcNEhYRUJe4 /PACWC+zgJdEV+cZNhBbWCBUou1pExtETZjEm85eFpBWEQEjiW9vxUFMFgEViYe/wYbzCvhK TN91lAVikb3E3YXvweKcAg4Sjf2LwaYwAl32/dQaJohN4hK3nsxngrhYQGLJnvPMELaoxMvH /1ghbCWJFdsvMYKsYhbQlFi/Sx+iVVFiSvdDdoi1ghInZz5hmcAoNgvJ1FkIHbOQdMxC0rGA kWUVo2hxanFxbrqRkV5qUWZycXF+nl5easkmRmDUHNzy22oH48HnjocYBTgYlXh4P/RahQmx JpYVV+YeYpTgYFYS4S2YCRTiTUmsrEotyo8vKs1JLT7EKM3BoiTO28z0IFRIID2xJDU7NbUg tQgmy8TBKdXAGMC8o+UsA2d2wL25d3qP6Z62sXWVZbSxrrv/zu2J2P+i/7qxnwVvPIpv8Jz2 1ircyV1N1cVTS/F1iCrv4f9/v7y/zRYu7TbV0SL9UjnLmZi1YqtfxBx0/OX1zCok/6GBkqDj 75c1Ymcnd29ef8PlA29/0+3gjgl/N/U3TOC8uuD4GmO7iM0nlViKMxINtZiLihMBlS7365YC AAA= Archived-At: Subject: [rtcweb] FW: New Version Notification for draft-holmberg-mmusic-mux-exlusive-00.txt X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2015 05:59:03 -0000 SGksDQoNCkkndmUgc3VibWl0dGVkIGEgZHJhZnQgdG8gTU1VU0lDIHdoaWNoIGRlZmluZXMgaG93 IHRoZSBTRFAgcnRjcC1tdXggYW5kIHJ0Y3AgYXR0cmlidXRlcyBjYW4gYmUgdXNlZCB0byBpbmRp Y2F0ZSBleGNsdXNpdmUgc3VwcG9ydCBvZiBSVFAvUlRDUCBtdXggKGkuZS4gd2hlbiB0aGUgZW5k cG9pbnQgZG9lcyBub3Qgc3VwcG9ydCBub24tbXV4KS4gSXQgaXMgYmFzZWQgb24gdGhlIHN1Z2dl c3Rpb24gSSBwb3N0ZWQgYSBmZXcgZGF5cyBhZ28uDQoNCklmIHdlIG1vdmUgZm9yd2FyZCB3aXRo IHRoaXMgZHJhZnQsIEkgZ3Vlc3Mgd2Ugd291bGQgcmVmZXJlbmNlIGl0IGF0IGxlYXN0IGluIEpT RVAsIGFuZCB2ZXJ5IGxpa2VseSBhbHNvIGluIEJVTkRMRS4NCg0KUmVnYXJkcywNCg0KQ2hyaXN0 ZXINCg0KLS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0NCkZyb206IGludGVybmV0LWRyYWZ0c0Bp 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Ym1pc3Npb24gdW50aWwgdGhlIGh0bWxpemVkIHZlcnNpb24gYW5kIGRpZmYgYXJlIGF2YWlsYWJs ZSBhdCB0b29scy5pZXRmLm9yZy4NCg0KVGhlIElFVEYgU2VjcmV0YXJpYXQNCg0K From nobody Wed Nov 4 22:06:42 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96AFB1B3A31 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 22:06:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.911 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.911 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bxP4CxZhj6Ut for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 22:06:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.amsl.com (mail.amsl.com [IPv6:2001:1900:3001:11::28]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CA131B3A14 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 22:06:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by c8a.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41D631E59F6 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 22:05:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com Received: from c8a.amsl.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (c8a.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6H1GTwk3RYLw for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 22:05:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from t20010c4000003024e08ed074cc6345f1.v6.meeting.ietf94.jp (t20010c4000003024e08ed074cc6345f1.v6.meeting.ietf94.jp [IPv6:2001:c40:0:3024:e08e:d074:cc63:45f1]) by c8a.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id EB9021E59F1 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 22:05:54 -0800 (PST) From: Alexa Morris Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2015 22:06:36 -0800 Message-Id: <689BC9A5-0976-4FFD-B709-8E23AB343C6B@amsl.com> To: rtcweb@ietf.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 7.3 $1878.6$) Sendlaterdate: Wed, 4 Nov 2015 22:06:36 -0800 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1878.6) Archived-At: Subject: [rtcweb] Queue for rtcweb Remote Attendees X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2015 06:06:40 -0000 If you are planning to participate in the rtcweb session here at IETF 94 = today =97 either locally in Yokohama or as a remote participant =97 we = want to make sure that you are aware that the IETF is providing remote = participants with a fairly new way to ask questions or make comments. In = addition to using the Jabber room, for the rtcweb session there is also = the opportunity for remote participants to enter a virtual queue and ask = questions directly into the meeting room.=20 This experimental queue was used in several sessions at IETF 92 and IETF = 93, so you may have already seen it in action. There will be two queues = for the rtcweb session =97 a virtual queue and an actual (in-room) = queue. Remote attendees will log into the Meetecho platform and will = have a virtual mic line that they can enter if they have a question or = comment. In-room participants will continue to use normal mic lines.=20 Instructions for remote participants are at = http://ietf94.conf.meetecho.com/index.php/Remote_Participation.=20 Information on how to join the Meetecho session is at = http://ietf94.conf.meetecho.com/. Verify that you are WebRTC compliant (required to use the virtual queue) = by performing a self-test here: = http://ietf94.conf.meetecho.com/index.php/Self_Test.=20 Regards, Alexa ---------- Alexa Morris / Executive Director / IETF 48377 Fremont Blvd., Suite 117, Fremont, CA 94538 Phone: +1.510.492.4089 / Fax: +1.510.492.4001 Email: amorris@amsl.com Managed by Association Management Solutions (AMS) Forum Management, Meeting and Event Planning www.amsl.com From nobody Wed Nov 4 22:26:24 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietf.org Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54C1B1B3A70; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 22:26:22 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.8.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20151105062622.31489.25266.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2015 22:26:22 -0800 Archived-At: Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org Subject: [rtcweb] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-09.txt X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2015 06:26:22 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers Working Group of the IETF. Title : WebRTC Audio Codec and Processing Requirements Authors : Jean-Marc Valin Cary Bran Filename : draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-09.txt Pages : 7 Date : 2015-11-04 Abstract: This document outlines the audio codec and processing requirements for WebRTC endpoints. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-09 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-09 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Wed Nov 4 22:58:00 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3893C1B3AED for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 22:57:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IO30mkez6PTk for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 22:57:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp65.ord1c.emailsrvr.com (smtp65.ord1c.emailsrvr.com [108.166.43.65]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 28ABC1B3AEB for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 22:57:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp17.relay.ord1c.emailsrvr.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp17.relay.ord1c.emailsrvr.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 94F3A180174 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 01:57:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by smtp17.relay.ord1c.emailsrvr.com (Authenticated sender: fluffy-AT-iii.ca) with ESMTPSA id 41A24180195 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 01:57:57 -0500 (EST) X-Sender-Id: fluffy@iii.ca Received: from tky-vpn-client-231-44.cisco.com ([UNAVAILABLE]. [64.104.44.110]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA) by 0.0.0.0:587 (trex/5.5.4); Thu, 05 Nov 2015 01:57:57 -0500 From: Cullen Jennings Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <2BC27139-6B3C-4433-A615-C8C14D5D862F@iii.ca> Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 15:57:55 +0900 To: "" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 $2104$) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2104) Archived-At: Subject: [rtcweb] WGLC draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-09 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2015 06:57:59 -0000 We would like to start the working group last call of = draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-09. Please send any comments to the list by the = end of Nov 30. From nobody Wed Nov 4 22:58:05 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 119E71B3AF3 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 22:58:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Jdr3yGQmZak0 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 22:58:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp65.ord1c.emailsrvr.com (smtp65.ord1c.emailsrvr.com [108.166.43.65]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 28E7A1B3AEE for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 22:58:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp17.relay.ord1c.emailsrvr.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp17.relay.ord1c.emailsrvr.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id B47C91801A8 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 01:57:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by smtp17.relay.ord1c.emailsrvr.com (Authenticated sender: fluffy-AT-iii.ca) with ESMTPSA id 608C718018E for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 01:57:59 -0500 (EST) X-Sender-Id: fluffy@iii.ca Received: from tky-vpn-client-231-44.cisco.com ([UNAVAILABLE]. [64.104.44.110]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA) by 0.0.0.0:587 (trex/5.5.4); Thu, 05 Nov 2015 01:57:59 -0500 From: Cullen Jennings Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <45EA7E8F-02B2-4664-820F-DE07A17D4C61@iii.ca> Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 15:57:59 +0900 To: "" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 $2104$) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2104) Archived-At: Subject: [rtcweb] WGLC draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-codecs-for-interop-02 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2015 06:58:01 -0000 We would like to start the working group last call of = draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-codecs-for-interop-02. Please send any comments = to the list by the end of Nov 30. From nobody Wed Nov 4 22:59:47 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE42E1B3AF2 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 22:59:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FRbNLsXsmmAp for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 22:59:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from sessmg23.ericsson.net (sessmg23.ericsson.net [193.180.251.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6F8161B3B03 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 22:59:43 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb2d-f79626d000004282-9c-563afe5c0985 Received: from ESESSHC006.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.253.125]) by sessmg23.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 60.1E.17026.C5EFA365; 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Wed, 04 Nov 2015 23:03:38 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.202.108.9 with HTTP; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 23:02:58 -0800 (PST) From: Peter Thatcher Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 16:02:58 +0900 Message-ID: To: "" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1140f6f2eba6730523c5b918 Archived-At: Subject: [rtcweb] Proposal for using RID-based simulcast SDP in JSEP X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2015 07:03:41 -0000 --001a1140f6f2eba6730523c5b918 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 I propose we update JSEP to include the use of RID-based simulcast in the following way: 1. createOffer will include a "a=rid:$RID send" line for each of the RIDs provided in PeerConnection.addTransceiver's "sendEncodings" field and one "a=simulcast send" line referencing all those RIDs. The RID lines will contain all of the constraints that the browser supports. Browsers SHOULD support max-br, but none of the constraints are mandatory to implement. Obviously if sendEncodings isn't present, then none of this is included. 2. setLocalDescription with such an offer and then a setRemoteDescription with an answer will cause the encodings in RtpSender.getParameters().encodings to contain an encoding for each of the matching "a=rid:$RID recv" lines contained in the answer. If the RID line constraints any of the supported constraints, they will be reflected in the RtpEncodingParameters. Browsers SHOULD map max-br to RtpEncodingParameters.maxBitrate. If "a=simulcast" is not present in the answer, one encoding will be present in the encodings, with no constraints set. 3. createAnswer responding to an offer with simulcast will respond with an "a=rid:$RID send" line for each of the "a=rid:$RID send" lines in the offer that the browser supports. If the browser does not support one of the constraints, such as max-width, max-height, or pt, then the browser will remove the rid line from the answer. 4. setLocalDescription with such an answer will cause the encodings in RtpSender.getParameters().encodings to to contain an encoding for each of the matching "a=rid:$RID recv" lines contained in the answer. If the RID line constraints any of the supported constraints, they will be reflected in the RtpEncodingParameters. Browsers SHOULD map max-br to RtpEncodingParameters.maxBitrate 5. If an answer in setRemoteDescription constraints a RID beyond what the browser supports, then the browser can reject the remote description. For example, if the browser does not support pt constraints, and the remote answer constrains the PT, the browser can reject the call to setRemoteDescription. Here is an example of an offer from a browser: pc.addTransceiver("video", {sendEncodings: [{rid: "A"}, {rid: "B"}, {rid: "C"}]}); pc.createOffer(); m=video ... ... a=rid:A send max-br a=rid:B send max-br a=rid:C send max-br a=simulcast:send rid=A,B,C And and answer from an MCU: m=video ... ... a=rid:A recv max-br=1000000 a=rid:B recv max-br=500000 a=rid:C recv max-br=200000 a=simulcast:recv rid=A,B,C And the encodings seen by the Javascript: sender.getParameters().encodings === [ {rid: "A", maxBitrate: 1000000}, {rid: "B", maxBitrate: 500000}, {rid: "C", maxBitrate: 200000} ]; And here is an example of an offer from an MCU: m=video... ... a=rid:A recv a=rid:B recv a=rid:C recv max-goats=42 a=simulcast:recv rid=A,B,C And the answer from a call to PeerConnection.createAnswer: pc.createAnswer(); m=video... ... a=rid:A send a=rid:B send a=simulcast:recv rid=A.B And the encodings seen by the Javascript: sender.getParameters().encodings === [ {rid: "A"}, {rid: "B"}, {rid: "C"} ]; Notice that C was dropped because the browser doesn't support max-goats. And, finally if the browser offers this: m=video... ... a=rid:A send a=rid:B send a=rid:C send a=simulcast:send rid=A,B,C And the MCU answers with this: m=video... ... a=rid:A recv a=rid:B recv a=rid:C recv max-goats=42 a=simulcast:recv rid=A,B,C or this: m=video... ... a=rid:A recv a=rid:B recv a=rid:C recv pt=42 a=simulcast:recv rid=A,B,C And the browser doesn't support max-goats= or pt=, then the browser can reject the answer from the call to setRemoteDescription. --001a1140f6f2eba6730523c5b918 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I propose we update JSEP to include the use of RID-base= d simulcast in the following way:

1. =C2=A0createOff= er will include a "a=3Drid:$RID send" line for each of the RIDs p= rovided in PeerConnection.addTransceiver's "sendEncodings" fi= eld and one "a=3Dsimulcast send" line referencing all those RIDs.= =C2=A0 The RID lines will contain all of the constraints that the browser s= upports.=C2=A0 Browsers SHOULD support max-br, but none of the constraints = are mandatory to implement.=C2=A0 Obviously if sendEncodings isn't pres= ent, then none of this is included.

2. =C2=A0setLo= calDescription with such an offer and then a setRemoteDescription with an a= nswer will cause the encodings in RtpSender.getParameters().encodings to co= ntain an encoding for each of the matching "a=3Drid:$RID recv" li= nes=C2=A0contained in the answer.=C2=A0 If the RID line constraints any of = the supported constraints, they will be reflected in the RtpEncodingParamet= ers.=C2=A0 Browsers SHOULD map max-br to RtpEncodingParameters.maxBitrate.= =C2=A0 If "a=3Dsimulcast" is not present in the answer, one encod= ing will be present in the encodings, with no constraints set.

3. =C2=A0createAnswer responding to an offer with simulcast will r= espond with an "a=3Drid:$RID send" line for each of the "a= =3Drid:$RID send" lines in the offer that the browser supports.=C2=A0 = If the browser does not support one of the constraints, such as max-width, = max-height, or pt, then the browser will remove the rid line from the answe= r. =C2=A0

4. =C2=A0setLocalDescription with such an an= swer will cause the encodings in RtpSender.getParameters().encodings to to = contain an encoding for each of the matching "a=3Drid:$RID recv" = lines=C2=A0contained in the answer.=C2=A0 If the RID line constraints any o= f the supported constraints, they will be reflected in the RtpEncodingParam= eters.=C2=A0 Browsers SHOULD map max-br to RtpEncodingParameters.maxBitrate=

5.=C2=A0 If an answer in setRemoteDescription constra= ints a RID beyond what the browser supports, then the browser can reject th= e remote description.=C2=A0 For example, if the browser does not support pt= constraints, and the remote answer constrains the PT, the browser can reje= ct the call to setRemoteDescription. =C2=A0

Here is an example of an offer from a browser:

pc.a= ddTransceiver("video", {sendEncodings: [{rid: "A"}, {ri= d: "B"}, {rid: "C"}]});

pc.createOffer();

m=3Dvideo ...

...

a=3Drid:A send max-br

a=3Drid:B send max-br

a=3Drid:C send max-br

a=3Dsimulc= ast:send rid=3DA,B,C

And and answer fro= m an MCU:

m=3Dvideo ...

...

a=3Drid:A = recv max-br=3D1000000

a=3Drid:B recv max-br=3D500000

a=3Dri= d:C recv max-br=3D200000

a=3Dsimulcast:recv rid=3DA,B,C

And the encodings seen by the Javascript:

se= nder.getParameters().encodings =3D=3D=3D [

=C2=A0 {rid: "A&quo= t;, maxBitrate: 1000000},

=C2=A0 {rid: "B", maxBitrate: 5= 00000},

=C2=A0 {rid: "C", maxBitrate: 200000}

];

And here is an example o= f an offer from an MCU:

m=3Dvideo...

...

a=3Drid:A recv

a=3Drid:B recv

a=3Drid:C recv max= -goats=3D42

a=3Dsimulcast:recv rid=3DA,B,= C

And the answer from a call to PeerCo= nnection.createAnswer:

pc.createAnswer();

<= /div>

m=3Dvideo...

...

a=3Drid:A send

a=3Drid= :B send

a=3Dsimulcast:recv rid=3DA.B<= /div>

And the encodings seen by the Javascript:

<= div>

sender.getParameters().enco= dings =3D=3D=3D [

=C2=A0 {rid: "A&qu= ot;},

=C2=A0 {rid: "B"},

=C2=A0 {rid: "C"}

];

Notice that C was dropped because the brows= er doesn't support max-goats.

And, finally if the browser offers this:=

m= =3Dvideo...

...

a=3Drid:A send

a=3Drid:B send

a=3Drid:C send=

a=3Dsimulcast:send rid=3DA,B,C

And the MCU= answers with this:

m=3Dvideo...

...

a=3Drid:A recv

a=3Drid:B recv

a=3Drid:C recv max-goats=3D42

a=3Ds= imulcast:recv rid=3DA,B,C

or this:

m=3Dvideo...

...

a=3Dr= id:A recv

a=3Drid:B recv

a=3Drid:C recv pt=3D42

a=3Dsimulcast:recv rid=3DA,B,C

= And the browser doesn't support max-goats=3D or pt=3D, then the browser= can reject the answer from the call to setRemoteDescription.

--001a1140f6f2eba6730523c5b918-- From nobody Wed Nov 4 23:14:53 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CCA41B3B3A; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 23:14:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Hscv-y4tNjMi; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 23:14:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from sesbmg23.ericsson.net (sesbmg23.ericsson.net [193.180.251.37]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4060B1B3B38; Wed, 4 Nov 2015 23:14:47 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb25-f79a26d00000149a-90-563b01e53c65 Received: from ESESSHC001.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.183.21]) by sesbmg23.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id D0.61.05274.5E10B365; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 08:14:45 +0100 (CET) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (153.88.183.153) by smtp.internal.ericsson.com (153.88.183.23) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 14.3.248.2; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 08:14:21 +0100 To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" , From: Magnus Westerlund Message-ID: <563B01C9.6060801@ericsson.com> Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2015 16:14:17 +0900 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFprGLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM2K7qO5TRuswg50XFSw+PO1ntFj7r53d gcljyZKfTAGMUVw2Kak5mWWpRfp2CVwZk5vWMRW8E6/4vHY6WwNjk3AXIyeHhICJRPuum8wQ tpjEhXvr2boYuTiEBA4zSsxq+cYO4SxjlDg2YRkrSJWIgKdEz+Z2dhCbTcBC4uaPRjYQW1hA V+LNvtksIDavgLbE7BdHGUFsFgEVia6938A2iArESLzftIoRokZQ4uTMJ0D1HBzMAvYSD7aW gYSZBeQlmrfOBisXAhrT0NTBOoGRbxaSjlkIHbOQdCxgZF7FKFqcWpyUm25krJdalJlcXJyf p5eXWrKJERhaB7f8Vt3BePmN4yFGAQ5GJR7eD71WYUKsiWXFlbmHGCU4mJVEeIu/A4V4UxIr q1KL8uOLSnNSiw8xSnOwKInzNjM9CBUSSE8sSc1OTS1ILYLJMnFwSjUwRm5qeOSzbu337r8e sorv0rYJ3uPv1ewUrjj0jzGzc02G9oHFzywNjieuWOW6v7ZOIFNX0n6m8bEG1xa/u+Zdq4uM 1vvmJGmt22o6O2vRQcGC3tOym8Oy5j+ZeODQ9xXP1UMjLmgJHHXx332ndnNw0Jp/LBXnE1zX Kj59q2LU+2jCpr0342pmK7EUZyQaajEXFScCAFfnH2cpAgAA Archived-At: Subject: [rtcweb] Comments on draft-ietf-rtcweb-fec-02 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2015 07:14:52 -0000 Hi, A. Section 3.2: I think the draft should note that some RTP Payload format, including several of the one recommended in draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-codecs-for-interop-02, do support internal redundancy. The codecs that I know for a fact can do this within the payload format are: AMR and AMR-WB. I would suggest adding some sentence on that time delayed redundancy may be supported by codecs, and give AMR and AMR-WB as examples. B. Section 4. I think this draft should consider the recommended drafts in draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-codecs-for-interop-02. Here we clearly can consider internal redundancy for AMR and AMR-WB. C. Section 4.2 There are a parameter in AMR and AMR-WB that can negotiate how much redundancy one may include: max-red D. Section 5.1: The receiver can demultiplex the incoming FEC stream by SSRC and correlate it with the primary stream via the ssrc-group mechanism. Given that FlexFEC has built in indication of which SSRC that are included in protection, why include it in SDP? For the purpose to indicate selectively which streams that should have FEC protection? You also need a reference for "ssrc-group" if intended to be supported going forward? E. Section 5.2, first paragraph: This section needs clearer references to SDP. F. Section 6. WebRTC also supports the ability to send generic application data, and provides transport-level retransmission mechanisms that the application can use to ensure that its data is delivered reliably. This should informationally reference data channel. G. Section 6. I think this section should say even less. Just note that SCTP has reliable and semi-reliable modes and the application can control it. Nothing more. H. Section 7. To support the functionality recommended above, implementations MUST support the redundant encoding mechanism described in [RFC2198] For which Codecs does on need to support this? I. Section 7. the FEC mechanism described in [RFC5956] and [I-D.ietf-payload-flexible-fec-scheme] As RFC5956 is not a FEC mechanism, only a grouping mechanism I think this need to be reformulated. J. Section 9. This section needs to be clearer that an implementation is expected to adapt the amount of FEC to the seen packet loss rate to ensure sufficient protection. And that adaptation must take into account the available network resources (Bandwidth) to trade-off media quality and what streams can be sent with use of FEC. Cheers Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 F�r�gatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Thu Nov 5 08:14:05 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3FC31B2ECB for ; Thu, 5 Nov 2015 08:14:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.278 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.278 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WutS13ziE_d8 for

--047d7bdc07d238778d0523cd6a93-- From nobody Wed Nov 11 03:37:24 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 686301A90F1 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 03:37:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.21 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.21 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sdHct45H-0Hy for ; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 03:37:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from mork.alvestrand.no (mork.alvestrand.no [158.38.152.117]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C5BC1A90DD for ; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 03:37:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mork.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E9107C3A0B for ; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 12:37:21 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at alvestrand.no Received: from mork.alvestrand.no ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mork.alvestrand.no [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tF1iaLI0We0b for ; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 12:37:20 +0100 (CET) Received: from [IPv6:2001:470:de0a:1:10bf:8be8:3b2a:713e] (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:de0a:1:10bf:8be8:3b2a:713e]) by mork.alvestrand.no (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7862F7C39F9 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 2015 12:37:20 +0100 (CET) To: rtcweb@ietf.org References: <5627B90D.8070106@alvestrand.no> <43B59C2F-4B64-4318-8339-04903AF2A6AC@cisco.com> <34EEB0FF-1922-42B5-A778-9BB66B7C4FDC@csperkins.org> From: Harald Alvestrand Message-ID: <56432870.6080507@alvestrand.no> Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2015 12:37:20 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [rtcweb] [Cake] [rmcat] Catching up on diffserv markings X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive:

= =C2=A0

--001a1141cf94cbec0a0524d6a4c6-- From nobody Wed Nov 18 12:43:41 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B27631B2D2D for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 12:43:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kGQ2IRiPK3rC for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 12:43:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qg0-x230.google.com (mail-qg0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c04::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 45D391B2D2C for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 12:43:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by qgea14 with SMTP id a14so37519606qge.0 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 12:43:34 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mozilla-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=u1PEJc6GU22dwbXVK0CEGixaPBwTFDBYZSVH4wSpbG0=; b=N6VBUgem84l4QBEPtTOdekCFhsNpVQv5XRmfH4eavMthxk5sOx0joaHmnnivvkh3aR Ns+7TAv2JOQcIqHYkhqVGewth2Wmk0WpzEqg/lTCdRtRK5msb3XCK0Kv0guOnRY0FBmz eKcCTKUM84Sv6f6r6riYCfyFFlcL3i78Gs9GbQeEexBCsxbub32wxZxJHgW948d7o6AV 0KE+X4weac8AUJrD2eyH3JuVxQJ+9HRTCQbfyqYVqdc9rj4jXiF4Oex9bA61iLwO924t snkdp/HURWVlx//yiNG6rsANAUgYXbAiwrc0ZnF+zK0jDTYGfGpaBamRlrr7/q2xgefY LEeQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=u1PEJc6GU22dwbXVK0CEGixaPBwTFDBYZSVH4wSpbG0=; b=eRVVKe4ycVmVcKnVcromWkwZ3PxE++iEQJZEf4pvuDgQpcKbphrEyUbJNQApiuy6J9 uhHadilh3pVq6lRDktFYXBH+7j1o/XyPBb7OK958DRAj52WLLlJJN5OZp2KFxlDqgvvu l8ZiSqGwW331Zxr6Crvx74rbiNN1JY7GUUqqHhmmbjKKlayvSn7GlPTYTQ15qZR56ARt moy8Y5w3Rdfco/cXxvAlkXAGkOjG/lz/UQWwMs4pb+Qm8eI/a50xCD0C2hQTbTSAuWqN rKm+//yAyjrm6Otv+T6w2Ww7CkxthlvushJf5shy+tXxbYzLeHmdw5npQO/HldHcNJ4M i+sQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkEFAwdrke2IDVA2qajgapqCfPGBj7u1/cIzhzpNgajfas8b6MAIrtVf81s0TttcnuN83El X-Received: by 10.140.33.139 with SMTP id j11mr3699929qgj.49.1447879414286; Wed, 18 Nov 2015 12:43:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from panoramix.jmvalin.ca (modemcable074.170-201-24.mc.videotron.ca. [24.201.170.74]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g184sm1433924qhg.4.2015.11.18.12.43.32 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 18 Nov 2015 12:43:33 -0800 (PST) To: Roman Shpount References: From: Jean-Marc Valin Message-ID: <564CE2F4.6060104@mozilla.com> Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2015 15:43:32 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: "" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Comments regarding draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-09 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe:

--001a11425bd28545680524e7e3d6-- From nobody Thu Nov 19 11:27:35 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1E771A21C4 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 11:27:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id J5wP1JNLC2iS for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 11:27:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qg0-x232.google.com (mail-qg0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c04::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 800301B3467 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 11:27:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by qgec40 with SMTP id c40so58238269qge.2 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 11:27:31 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=YEvXCJg4x8/naJbgKBOjuLlYrL1CeO83/aa4ncwbwtc=; b=R8AgdGNkxvT2M0wrebETLAkKURRvdRFSv8uqNgkVtJrzDCWT4KtYjUZAsrkIJddAIx 1/iJVvovaTZakL5J28Sm4FkK+07EKvow3Omxwx6OByjkGVZ4PIJtp6geVeCc4xJCDmop gLOrQ79YWBAzHR4gmjKEhiXtMzhfiBTY51OW48DhwLCfrOV1Xn126c0typ76rBQZK25X M+Hp4jMX+7NCN2VzBjbiSKlSbJWjuqKeYCqBI9tM4zee2rZDlF0zAWj04WqXhsCtHmdc xe95/9uEUecqHl5ACREbrmNylg7JJoCNrDQ4B4KvnmQJ2UrQr6BoQ0+8JBxD7wgh902y 3wiA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.140.17.8 with SMTP id 8mr8948666qgc.80.1447961251486; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 11:27:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.55.115.132 with HTTP; Thu, 19 Nov 2015 11:27:31 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 11:27:31 -0800 Message-ID: From: Ted Hardie To: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c0ca600b22a70524e9c0ff Archived-At: Subject: [rtcweb] Draft minutes uploaded X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 19:27:33 -0000 --001a11c0ca600b22a70524e9c0ff Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Draft minutes have been uploaded to the proceedings site: https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/94/minutes/minutes-94-rtcweb Please review and send corrections to the list. thanks, Ted, Cullen, Sean --001a11c0ca600b22a70524e9c0ff Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Draft minutes have been uploaded to the proceedi= ngs site:

https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/94/minutes/minutes-94-rtcw= eb

Please review and send corrections to the lis= t.

thanks,

Ted, Cullen, Sean<= br>

--001a11c0ca600b22a70524e9c0ff-- From nobody Tue Nov 24 04:31:50 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A48A91A1BF5 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 04:31:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jLRnrRroO_aG for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 04:31:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from sessmg22.ericsson.net (sessmg22.ericsson.net [193.180.251.58]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A9BD51A1BEF for

--001a114e50da7de6d8052549748f-- From nobody Tue Nov 24 06:52:21 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FEBC1A86FE for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 06:52:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EXUEG1_IKbAn for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 06:52:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from sessmg23.ericsson.net (sessmg23.ericsson.net [193.180.251.45]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C88D91A86F7 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 06:52:14 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb2d-f79456d000001332-0d-5654799ca2f3 Received: from ESESSHC007.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [153.88.183.39]) by sessmg23.ericsson.net (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 62.94.04914.C9974565; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 15:52:12 +0100 (CET) Received: from ESESSMB209.ericsson.se ([169.254.9.142]) by ESESSHC007.ericsson.se ([153.88.183.39]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 15:52:11 +0100 From: Christer Holmberg To: Eric Rescorla Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] JSEP: Candidiates in SDP Thread-Index: AdEms+bnBe732520T/uY1KRWKb89LAAAQHGAAASPgPA= Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 14:52:02 +0000 Message-ID: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37C65630@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37C651D1@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.17] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; 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X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 15:58:47 -0000 --001a1140867897127e05254b6a87 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 6:52 AM, Christer Holmberg < christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote: > Hi, > > > > I am thinking e.g. about the case where the JS app receives a subsequent > offer from the remote party, and the updated offer contains new candidate= s > that weren=E2=80=99t provided in the previous offer. > > > Sorry, I don't follow. -Ekr > Regards, > > > > Christer > > > > *From:* Eric Rescorla [mailto:ekr@rtfm.com] > *Sent:* 24. marraskuuta 2015 15:38 > *To:* Christer Holmberg > *Cc:* rtcweb@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [rtcweb] JSEP: Candidiates in SDP > > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 4:31 AM, Christer Holmberg < > christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote: > > Hi, > > > > A question for clarification: > > > > Is addIceCandidiate the MUST-USE mechanism for providing candidiates usin= g > JSEP? I.e. one can not rely on providing candidates in SDP? > > > > > > I don't understand the question. Under some conditions, the SDP will have > the candidates, > > specifically, if you wait until gathering is finished and then get the > offer/answer. However, > > absent explicit agreement between the sides (or them being the same app) > then you > > don't know that that's true. > > > > -Ekr > > > > Regards, > > > > Christer > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > > --001a1140867897127e05254b6a87 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 6:52 AM, Christer Holmberg &l= t;chris= ter.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:

Hi,<= /p>
=C2=A0

I am think= ing e.g. about the case where the JS app receives a subsequent offer from t= he remote party, and the updated offer contains new candidates that weren=E2=80=99t provided in the previous offer.<= /p>

Sorry, I don't follow.

-Ekr

=C2=A0<= /div>

Regards,

=C2= =A0

Christer

=C2= =A0

From: Eric Rescorla [mailto:ekr@rtfm.com]
Sent: 24. marraskuuta 2015 15:38
To: Christer Holmberg
Cc: rtcweb@ietf= .org
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] JSEP: Candidiates in SDP<= /p>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 4:31 AM, Christer Holmberg &= lt;chri= ster.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:

Hi,

=C2=A0

A question for clarification:

=C2=A0

Is addIceCandidiate the MUST-US= E mechanism for providing candidiates using JSEP? I.e. one can not rely on = providing candidates in SDP?

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

I don't understand the question. Under some cond= itions, the SDP will have the candidates,

specifically, if you wait until gathering is finishe= d and then get the offer/answer. However,

absent explicit agreement between the sides (or them= being the same app) then you

don't know that that's true.

=C2=A0

-Ekr

=C2=A0

Regards,
=C2=A0<= /span>

Christe= r

=C2=A0<= /span>

=C2=A0<= /span>

_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

=C2=A0

--001a1140867897127e05254b6a87-- From nobody Tue Nov 24 08:05:17 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DF571A8AAD for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 08:05:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.278 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.278 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id n1GcpLqZ8DY2 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 08:05:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oi0-x236.google.com (mail-oi0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B0B2F1A8A9C for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 08:05:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by oige206 with SMTP id e206so12399779oig.2 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 08:05:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=jitsi-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=+buK75Xru20R0vKu37R1lzu4amg4QEQkAocfV8SU17A=; b=CGR8mfwUE+GfSxzWEodlTj1ScgqnQDuj678WoEcms23DRTy/A9NhfhGIOU4FUlilaL ODrlpc/vMt4IZg+WjOTjjSh627oazHIx171ARvV1BKKExZ2L1DKAU57iqiRs9s5RRSvb rtbb3a3YcftctbFTWQNaWwHjDAgFRtNqSvSF54Az8WjWQmg6RUmFf5oK1/JnirehDoNU FmGh7rmi7kU0UdurwshvsPax96y1z2YR6IyrofXeVsiAii2V4naz48F9/wB4YLpN3GL0 HoR8zLPciahOJqguqkRrzsFfL7kBQ1hQ8VygcTg0CR62mWHlZ6RKSLNa83ggGLv1Q583 StJQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=+buK75Xru20R0vKu37R1lzu4amg4QEQkAocfV8SU17A=; b=NIG1ovCssEuobq/Xun1y0Xg4Npx8/rH+YdcMCH9xnc6LdNcsEAFjHruzxy5LLKr4ga fnsdYaSet3CUxuKxN0RDYwboZu9QtmiSUgnkDPyZarf1PgKm04LDn2k9aIje1DSi0Ro+ sC3l8mf2x9uSYDF8tw6IKqFqAFznCmrgFigNlplp1ZloZWQrmMN9/sdl3t4MfSrPemrn QygnEKsIuoGDlnBYw5khDV6u0ZJ2S842R4QyoSIIdiI5yCSC7H4uk3fyLy/0PzvXPL9o kullpHEQU5/chj24jj1fNJIN1WNlJrY3ilMkoeWsXd7DauiaYEfm9S7BSP8VdAb4040R ieVg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkAixx39Cr9VfQftYQ8mTRoWdQb/hhqFxhwj6qmpgkKn4hYTmuY1Mz/leAhH4dK+hsgWStd X-Received: by 10.202.1.199 with SMTP id 190mr20200344oib.69.1448381111958; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 08:05:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oi0-f48.google.com (mail-oi0-f48.google.com. [209.85.218.48]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y75sm8213760oie.6.2015.11.24.08.05.11 for (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 24 Nov 2015 08:05:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by oies6 with SMTP id s6so12540589oie.1 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 08:05:10 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.202.189.66 with SMTP id n63mr6421770oif.89.1448381110768; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 08:05:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.76.56.138 with HTTP; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 08:05:10 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37C65630@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37C651D1@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37C65630@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 10:05:10 -0600 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: From: Emil Ivov To: Christer Holmberg Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113d666e9cab6105254b8151 Archived-At: Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] JSEP: Candidiates in SDP X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 16:05:16 -0000 --001a113d666e9cab6105254b8151 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sounds like an ICE restart. If it isn't then this is not currently allowed by any spec. Emil On Tuesday, 24 November 2015, Christer Holmberg < christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote: > Hi, > > > > I am thinking e.g. about the case where the JS app receives a subsequent > offer from the remote party, and the updated offer contains new candidate= s > that weren=E2=80=99t provided in the previous offer. > > > > Regards, > > > > Christer > > > > *From:* Eric Rescorla [mailto:ekr@rtfm.com > ] > *Sent:* 24. marraskuuta 2015 15:38 > *To:* Christer Holmberg > *Cc:* rtcweb@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [rtcweb] JSEP: Candidiates in SDP > > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 4:31 AM, Christer Holmberg < > christer.holmberg@ericsson.com > > wrote: > > Hi, > > > > A question for clarification: > > > > Is addIceCandidiate the MUST-USE mechanism for providing candidiates usin= g > JSEP? I.e. one can not rely on providing candidates in SDP? > > > > > > I don't understand the question. Under some conditions, the SDP will have > the candidates, > > specifically, if you wait until gathering is finished and then get the > offer/answer. However, > > absent explicit agreement between the sides (or them being the same app) > then you > > don't know that that's true. > > > > -Ekr > > > > Regards, > > > > Christer > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > > --=20 sent from my mobile --001a113d666e9cab6105254b8151 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sounds like an ICE restart.

If it isn't then this is= not currently allowed by any spec.

Emil

On Tuesday, 24 November 2015, Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>= ; wrote:

Hi,<= /p>
=C2=A0

I am think= ing e.g. about the case where the JS app receives a subsequent offer from t= he remote party, and the updated offer contains new candidates that weren=E2=80=99t provided in the previous offer.<= /p>
=C2= =A0

Regards,

=C2= =A0

Christer

=C2= =A0

From: Eric Rescorla [mailto:ekr@rtfm.com]
Sent: 24. marraskuuta 2015 15:38
To: Christer Holmberg
Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] JSEP: Candidiates in SDP<= /p>
=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 4:31 AM, Christer Holmberg &= lt;christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>= wrote:

Hi,

=C2=A0

A question for clarification:

=C2=A0

Is addIceCandidiate the MUST-US= E mechanism for providing candidiates using JSEP? I.e. one can not rely on = providing candidates in SDP?

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

I don't understand the question. Under some cond= itions, the SDP will have the candidates,

specifically, if you wait until gathering is finishe= d and then get the offer/answer. However,

absent explicit agreement between the sides (or them= being the same app) then you

don't know that that's true.

=C2=A0

-Ekr

=C2=A0

Regards,
=C2=A0<= /span>

Christe= r

=C2=A0<= /span>

=C2=A0<= /span>

_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org
= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

=C2=A0

--
sent from my mobile
--001a113d666e9cab6105254b8151-- From nobody Tue Nov 24 08:19:49 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E008A1A8AE2 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 08:19:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.492 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.492 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, KHOP_DYNAMIC=1.004, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.77, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ljW7QH57CtUx for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 08:19:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0a-00198e01.pphosted.com (mx0a-00198e01.pphosted.com [67.231.149.202]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8CC211A88BA for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 08:19:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0073109.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0a-00198e01.pphosted.com (8.15.0.59/8.15.0.59) with SMTP id tAOGFsm9009835; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 11:19:41 -0500 Received: from mail.vidyo.com ([162.209.16.214]) by mx0a-00198e01.pphosted.com with ESMTP id 1y1br6gtt3-1 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Tue, 24 Nov 2015 11:19:41 -0500 Received: from 492132-EXCH1.vidyo.com ([fe80::50:56ff:fe85:4f77]) by 492133-EXCH2.vidyo.com ([fe80::50:56ff:fe85:6b62%13]) with mapi id 14.03.0195.001; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 10:19:40 -0600 From: Jonathan Lennox To: Emil Ivov Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] JSEP: Candidiates in SDP Thread-Index: AQHRJtMb/MRhJWXZ7EOsxOLWtOiNop6rvsSA Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 16:19:39 +0000 Message-ID: <6208A6E4-BA3F-4202-A72E-86B9D3E6F82A@vidyo.com> References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37C651D1@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> 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--_000_6208A6E4BA3F4202A72E86B9D3E6F82Avidyocom_-- From nobody Tue Nov 24 08:24:16 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA6EF1A9029 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 08:24:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HPz9M-WzX2WY for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 08:24:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from sesbmg22.ericsson.net (sesbmg22.ericsson.net [193.180.251.48]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 26BC71A88D2 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 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Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [153.88.183.154] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37C65C6AESESSMB209erics_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFlrBIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyM2K7pa5Kf0iYwZtGCYs1OyewWOxffJ7Z Yu2/dnYHZo8lS34yefx/E+jR9uwOewBzFJdNSmpOZllqkb5dAlfGy/MWBduWMVY8vdLF2sDY sIixi5GTQ0LARGJhdzMbhC0mceHeeiCbi0NI4DCjxKnbP1khnCWMEj/f3mLpYuTgYBOwkOj+ pw3SICLgKrHu+SF2EJtZQF3izuJzYLawgJ7E0v7PTCDlIgL6Elv+WEGU+0kc2tfGCmKzCKhK 7OjdA2bzCvhK7J7xDKxVSOASk8TNLUwgNqeArcSamW/BahiBbvt+ag0TxCpxiVtP5jNB3Cwg sWTPeWYIW1Ti5eN/rBC2ksSi25+h6vMlWrqbWCB2CUqcnPmEZQKj6Cwko2YhKZuFpGwW0AfM ApoS63fpQ5QoSkzpfsgOYWtItM6Zy44svoCRfRWjaHFqcVJuupGRXmpRZnJxcX6eXl5qySZG YPwd3PLbYAfjy+eOhxgFOBiVeHgLZgWHCbEmlhVX5h5ilOBgVhLhPd0VEibEm5JYWZValB9f VJqTWnyIUZqDRUmct5npQaiQQHpiSWp2ampBahFMlomDU6qBUXa7NYP84irpm835wTqbpvtl OUq8MhXs+scsczG5cdWCc6eZDgRWrdmzJOHKszU+jo03TfZ/SHr0Z0lweyrfqUWOt242Xj+T 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[209.85.218.53]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id k136sm8482712oib.24.2015.11.24.08.24.52 for (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 24 Nov 2015 08:24:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by oige206 with SMTP id e206so12800183oig.2 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 08:24:51 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.202.49.137 with SMTP id x131mr20227173oix.119.1448382291904; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 08:24:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.76.56.138 with HTTP; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 08:24:51 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37C65C6A@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37C651D1@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37C65630@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <6208A6E4-BA3F-4202-A72E-86B9D3E6F82A@vidyo.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37C65C6A@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 10:24:51 -0600 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: From: Emil Ivov To: Christer Holmberg Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113cc2ee02321705254bc8f1 Archived-At: Cc: Jonathan Lennox , "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] JSEP: Candidiates in SDP X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 16:25:17 -0000 --001a113cc2ee02321705254bc8f1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Now that we have trickle we should probably outlaw this. I don't think it was ever widely supported anyway. On Tuesday, 24 November 2015, Christer Holmberg < christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote: > Correct. I was maybe unclear, but I was not talking about replacing > previous candidates, but adding new ones, using an updated offer, while i= t > is still =E2=80=9Callowed=E2=80=9D. > > > > Regards, > > > > Christer > > > > *From:* Jonathan Lennox [mailto:jonathan@vidyo.com > ] > *Sent:* 24 November 2015 18:20 > *To:* Emil Ivov > > *Cc:* Christer Holmberg >; > rtcweb@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [rtcweb] JSEP: Candidiates in SDP > > > > Not so. See RFC 5245 sections 9.2.1.2, 9.2.2.1, and 9.3.1.4 =E2=80=94 if = ICE is > still in the Running state, an endpoint is allowed to send an updated off= er > (or answer) with additional candidates. It=E2=80=99s sort of a =E2=80=9C= poor man=E2=80=99s > trickle=E2=80=9D. > > > > > > On Nov 24, 2015, at 11:05 AM, Emil Ivov > wrote: > > > > Sounds like an ICE restart. > > > > If it isn't then this is not currently allowed by any spec. > > > > Emil > > On Tuesday, 24 November 2015, Christer Holmberg < > christer.holmberg@ericsson.com > > wrote: > > Hi, > > > > I am thinking e.g. about the case where the JS app receives a subsequent > offer from the remote party, and the updated offer contains new candidate= s > that weren=E2=80=99t provided in the previous offer. > > > > Regards, > > > > Christer > > > > *From:* Eric Rescorla [mailto:ekr@rtfm.com] > *Sent:* 24. marraskuuta 2015 15:38 > *To:* Christer Holmberg > *Cc:* rtcweb@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [rtcweb] JSEP: Candidiates in SDP > > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 4:31 AM, Christer Holmberg < > christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote: > > Hi, > > > > A question for clarification: > > > > Is addIceCandidiate the MUST-USE mechanism for providing candidiates usin= g > JSEP? I.e. one can not rely on providing candidates in SDP? > > > > > > I don't understand the question. Under some conditions, the SDP will have > the candidates, > > specifically, if you wait until gathering is finished and then get the > offer/answer. However, > > absent explicit agreement between the sides (or them being the same app) > then you > > don't know that that's true. > > > > -Ekr > > > > Regards, > > > > Christer > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > > > > > -- > sent from my mobile > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > > --=20 sent from my mobile --001a113cc2ee02321705254bc8f1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Now that we have trickle we should probably outlaw this. I don't think = it was ever widely supported anyway.

On Tuesday, 24 Nov= ember 2015, Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:

Correct. I was maybe unclear, but I w= as not talking about replacing previous candidates, but adding new ones, us= ing an updated offer, while it is still =E2=80=9Callowed=E2=80=9D.

=C2=A0

Regards,

=C2=A0

Christer

=C2=A0

From: = Jonathan Lennox [mailto:jonathan@vidyo.com]
Sent: 24 November 2015 18:20
To: Emil Ivov <emcho@jitsi.org>
Cc: Christer Holmberg <christer= .holmberg@ericsson.com>; rtcweb@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] JSEP: Candidiates in SDP<= /p>

=C2=A0

Not so. See RFC 5245 sections 9.2.1.2, 9.2.2.1, and = 9.3.1.4 =E2=80=94 if ICE is still in the Running state, an endpoint is allo= wed to send an updated offer (or answer) with additional candidates.=C2=A0 = It=E2=80=99s sort of a =E2=80=9Cpoor man=E2=80=99s trickle=E2=80=9D.=

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Nov 24, 2015, at 11:05 AM, Emil Ivov <emcho@jitsi.org> wrote:

=C2=A0

Sounds like an ICE restart.

=C2=A0

If it isn't then this is not currently allowed b= y any spec.

=C2=A0

Emil

On Tuesday, 24 November 2015, Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:

Hi,

=C2=A0

I am thinking e.g. abo= ut the case where the JS app receives a subsequent offer from the remote party, and the updated offer contains new candidates that weren=E2= =80=99t provided in the previous offer.<= /u>

=C2=A0

Regards,

=C2=A0

Christer

=C2=A0

From: Er= ic Rescorla [mailto:ekr@rtfm.com]
Sent: 24. marraskuuta 2015 15:38
To: Christer Holmberg
Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] JSEP: Candidiates in SDP

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 4:31 AM, C= hrister Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:

Hi,

=C2=A0

A question for clarification:

=C2=A0=

Is addIceCandidiate the MUST-US= E mechanism for providing candidiates using JSEP? I.e. one can not rely on = providing candidates in SDP?<= /p>
=C2=A0

=C2=A0

I don't understand the questio= n. Under some conditions, the SDP will have the candidates,

specifically, if you wait until ga= thering is finished and then get the offer/answer. However,

absent explicit agreement between = the sides (or them being the same app) then you

don't know that that's tru= e.

=C2=A0

-Ekr

=C2=A0

Regards,

=C2=A0<= /span>

Christe= r

=C2=A0<= /span>

=C2=A0<= /span>

_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org
= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

=C2=A0

--
sent from my mobile
_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org
= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

=C2=A0

--
sent from my mobile
--001a113cc2ee02321705254bc8f1-- From nobody Tue Nov 24 11:11:56 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 983D11A87D2 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 11:11:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id u4iIM_gaScDd for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 11:11:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from sesbmg22.ericsson.net (sesbmg22.ericsson.net [193.180.251.48]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2EDA71A87C5 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 11:11:52 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rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D4E61A8880 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 11:34:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.963 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.963 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id knWwReyYhhNx for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 11:34:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oi0-x22a.google.com (mail-oi0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 954A81A8843 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 11:34:07 -0800 (PST) Received: by 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Peter Thatcher Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 11:33:27 -0800 Message-ID: To: Christer Holmberg Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c1714cd0819e05254e6c0e Archived-At: Cc: Jonathan Lennox , "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] JSEP: Candidiates in SDP X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 19:34:10 -0000 --001a11c1714cd0819e05254e6c0e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think Christer's real question is "how does JS pass candidates down remote candidate to the browser?". And I think the answer is that it can come down via either addIceCandidate or via setRemoteDescription (the SDP, either offer or answer). Another way of phrasing the question is: "If the PeerConnection sees candidates in the remote description that weren't passed down via addIceCandidate, should it use them or throw them away?". And I think the answer is "it should use them". Such is not explicitly specified in JSEP, but section 4.1.11 for addIceCandidate says the candidate "will be added to the remote description according to the rules defined for Trickle ICE". Which makes one think that if addIceCandidate is equivalent to adding a candidate to the remote description, then adding a candidate to the remote description be equivalent to addIceCandidate. But it doesn't say so explicitly. Chrome implements this way (accepts candidates in the SDP that aren't from addIceCandidate). The ORTC shim (https://github.com/webrtc/adapter/pull/136/files) doesn't, I don't think, but that's probably just a bug/oversight. I don't know what Firefox does. On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 11:11 AM, Christer Holmberg < christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote: > Hi, > > > > How candidates are signalled/trickled on the wire is irrelevant =E2=80=93= JSEP > needs to be clear on when/if candidates can be provided within an > offer/answer, and when they can/need to be provided using addCandidate(). > > > > Regards, > > > > Christer > > > > *From:* Emil Ivov [mailto:emcho@jitsi.org] > *Sent:* 24 November 2015 18:25 > *To:* Christer Holmberg > *Cc:* Jonathan Lennox ; rtcweb@ietf.org > > *Subject:* Re: [rtcweb] JSEP: Candidiates in SDP > > > > Now that we have trickle we should probably outlaw this. I don't think it > was ever widely supported anyway. > > On Tuesday, 24 November 2015, Christer Holmberg < > christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote: > > Correct. I was maybe unclear, but I was not talking about replacing > previous candidates, but adding new ones, using an updated offer, while i= t > is still =E2=80=9Callowed=E2=80=9D. > > > > Regards, > > > > Christer > > > > *From:* Jonathan Lennox [mailto:jonathan@vidyo.com] > *Sent:* 24 November 2015 18:20 > *To:* Emil Ivov > *Cc:* Christer Holmberg ; rtcweb@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [rtcweb] JSEP: Candidiates in SDP > > > > Not so. See RFC 5245 sections 9.2.1.2, 9.2.2.1, and 9.3.1.4 =E2=80=94 if = ICE is > still in the Running state, an endpoint is allowed to send an updated off= er > (or answer) with additional candidates. It=E2=80=99s sort of a =E2=80=9C= poor man=E2=80=99s > trickle=E2=80=9D. > > > > > > On Nov 24, 2015, at 11:05 AM, Emil Ivov wrote: > > > > Sounds like an ICE restart. > > > > If it isn't then this is not currently allowed by any spec. > > > > Emil > > On Tuesday, 24 November 2015, Christer Holmberg < > christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote: > > Hi, > > > > I am thinking e.g. about the case where the JS app receives a subsequent > offer from the remote party, and the updated offer contains new candidate= s > that weren=E2=80=99t provided in the previous offer. > > > > Regards, > > > > Christer > > > > *From:* Eric Rescorla [mailto:ekr@rtfm.com ] > *Sent:* 24. marraskuuta 2015 15:38 > *To:* Christer Holmberg > *Cc:* rtcweb@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [rtcweb] JSEP: Candidiates in SDP > > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 4:31 AM, Christer Holmberg < > christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote: > > Hi, > > > > A question for clarification: > > > > Is addIceCandidiate the MUST-USE mechanism for providing candidiates usin= g > JSEP? I.e. one can not rely on providing candidates in SDP? > > > > > > I don't understand the question. Under some conditions, the SDP will have > the candidates, > > specifically, if you wait until gathering is finished and then get the > offer/answer. However, > > absent explicit agreement between the sides (or them being the same app) > then you > > don't know that that's true. > > > > -Ekr > > > > Regards, > > > > Christer > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > > > > > -- > sent from my mobile > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > > > > > -- > sent from my mobile > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > --001a11c1714cd0819e05254e6c0e Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I think Christer's real question is "how does = JS pass candidates down remote candidate to the browser?".=C2=A0 And I= think the answer is that it can come down via either addIceCandidate or vi= a setRemoteDescription (the SDP, either offer or answer). =C2=A0

Another way of phrasing the question is: =C2=A0"If the Peer= Connection sees candidates in the remote description that weren't passe= d down via addIceCandidate, should it use them or throw them away?".= =C2=A0 And I think the answer is "it should use them".

Such is not explicitly specified in JSEP, but section 4.1.11 for= addIceCandidate says the candidate "will be added to the remote descr= iption according to the rules defined for Trickle ICE".=C2=A0 Which ma= kes one think that if addIceCandidate is equivalent to adding a candidate t= o the remote description, then adding a candidate to the remote description= be equivalent to addIceCandidate.=C2=A0 But it doesn't say so explicit= ly.

Chrome implements this way (accepts c= andidates in the SDP that aren't from addIceCandidate).

The ORTC shim (https://github.com/webrtc/adapter/pull/136/files) doesn't, I= don't think, but that's probably just a bug/oversight.

I don't know what Firefox does.

On Tue, = Nov 24, 2015 at 11:11 AM, Christer Holmberg <christer.holmb= erg@ericsson.com> wrote:

Hi,

=C2=A0

How candidates are signalled/trickled= on the wire is irrelevant =E2=80=93 JSEP needs to be clear on when/if cand= idates can be provided within an offer/answer, and when they can/need to be provided using addCandidate(= ).

=C2=A0

Regards,

=C2=A0

Christer

=C2=A0

From: = Emil Ivov [mailto:emch= o@jitsi.org]
Sent: 24 November 2015 18:25
To: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
Cc: Jonathan Lennox <jonathan@vidyo.com>; rtcweb@ietf.org

Subject: Re: [rtcweb] JSEP: Candidiates in SDP

=C2=A0

Now that we have trickle we should probably outlaw t= his. I don't think it was ever widely supported anyway.

On Tuesday, 24 November 2015, Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com= > wrote:

Correct. I was maybe unclear, but I w= as not talking about replacing previous candidates, but adding new ones, using an updated offer, while it is still =E2=80=9Callowed=E2=80= =9D.

=C2=A0

Regards,

=C2=A0

Christer

=C2=A0

From: = Jonathan Lennox [mailto:jonathan@vidyo.com]
Sent: 24 November 2015 18:20
To: Emil Ivov <emcho@jitsi.org>
Cc: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>; rtcweb@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] JSEP: Candidiates in SDP<= /p>

=C2=A0

Not so. See RFC 5245 sections 9.2.1.2, 9.2.2.1, and = 9.3.1.4 =E2=80=94 if ICE is still in the Running state, an endpoint is allo= wed to send an updated offer (or answer) with additional candidates.=C2=A0 It=E2=80=99s sort of a =E2=80=9Cpoor man=E2=80=99s trickle=E2=80=9D.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Nov 24, 2015, at 11:05 AM, Emil Ivov <emcho= @jitsi.org> wrote:

=C2=A0

Sounds like an ICE restart.

=C2=A0

If it isn't then this is not currently allowed b= y any spec.

=C2=A0

Emil

On Tuesday, 24 November 2015, Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@er= icsson.com> wrote:

Hi,<= /p>
=C2=A0

I am thinking e.g. abo= ut the case where the JS app receives a subsequent offer from the remote party, and the updated offer contains new candidates that weren=E2= =80=99t provided in the previous offer.

=C2=A0

Regards,=

=C2=A0

Christer=

=C2=A0

From: Er= ic Rescorla [mailto:ekr@rtf= m.com]
Sent: 24. marraskuuta 2015 15:38
To: Christer Holmberg
Cc: rtcweb@ietf= .org
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] JSEP: Candidiates in SDP<= /p>
=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 4:31 AM, Christer Holmberg &= lt;christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:

Hi,

=C2=A0

A question for clarification:

=C2=A0

Is addIceCandidiate the MUST-US= E mechanism for providing candidiates using JSEP? I.e. one can not rely on = providing candidates in SDP?

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

I don't understand the questio= n. Under some conditions, the SDP will have the candidates,

specifically, if you wait until ga= thering is finished and then get the offer/answer. However,

absent explicit agreement between = the sides (or them being the same app) then you

don't know that that's tru= e.

=C2=A0

-Ekr

=C2=A0

Regards,
=C2=A0<= /span>

Christe= r

=C2=A0<= /span>

=C2=A0<= /span>

_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinf= o/rtcweb

=C2=A0

--
sent from my mobile
_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org
= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

=C2=A0

--
sent from my mobile

_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

--001a11c1714cd0819e05254e6c0e-- From nobody Tue Nov 24 11:39:06 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E46C11A885B for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 11:39:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1zNCVCTKdoqk for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 11:39:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ig0-x22d.google.com (mail-ig0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C5A361A8860 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 11:39:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by igcto18 with SMTP id to18so21818747igc.0 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 11:39:03 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=dexBPbZrx6jRe4AnCFnbxLQpU8py6GbBt3wTSCTo8Tk=; b=GjnW2kLCRb8VMfi9gTs5lcnaQm3qW3qeWH68nP67EWjK3feLiMN5DxNmqFay/2a3ZX swvOvedvd9FYXMqv9AAjGY/orF4L1WVMpA3KxLv0LqU/bcG4+zy/Mc3fr8LyBh2Bu+8h 8NpjJ2jUj8lGAJTeRTAA2H8PA9lgYufRMLbsDgdK3GquKLG613tjx+6bqNTJxGXhiSpd VtYVASwrVysGCljCdQ+KnH87PGa8CTgfUCFpXaQF+iZTarUHMogEh22uvIr1vNmMS4i0 EiF4LgJKUvWUxy7AJkNFNXRp7haJA9w/J0J5UPGakHFtu44GSG6nzXVhFuyZgsB6DQ0m RwmA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.43.135 with SMTP id w7mr107947igl.77.1448393943255; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 11:39:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.36.155.139 with HTTP; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 11:39:03 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37C651D1@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37C65630@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <6208A6E4-BA3F-4202-A72E-86B9D3E6F82A@vidyo.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37C65C6A@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37C66F91@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 11:39:03 -0800 Message-ID: From: Martin Thomson To: Peter Thatcher Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: Jonathan Lennox , "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] JSEP: Candidiates in SDP X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 19:39:05 -0000 On 24 November 2015 at 11:33, Peter Thatcher wrote: > I don't know what Firefox does. If you provide a set of remote candidates, we use them, whether they arrive via addIceCandidate or setRemoteDescription. From nobody Tue Nov 24 11:39:27 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2B2C1A8889 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 11:39:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.277 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.277 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Y8cSDVXQS0Gd for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 11:39:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yk0-x22e.google.com (mail-yk0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c07::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7540B1A8860 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 11:39:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by ykfs79 with SMTP id s79so31495244ykf.1 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 11:39:22 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=mEnWU1miJIWXha54jdoVJIQfqeZSz5/A1voN0y6lWns=; b=HQrX8nIjtJsVRZOL8NDVPzR2gEy3fGsrZ1QqoYQwo7ssz0wRLzoV7CTXc/MXlhQzER HbpqOr/0Cb54hih/Mnsg01dhQqsEFeu55eLDtQl1HcAjIAKgqip8luUYcSAoPqp4cuR7 FVp/jM+L7MwvMDXF39ibhJBbI7xKTDlr8lCyYt+JgfmW3No/qEVGsAkWAWuOhHG9Fc9b N0fV+r49hUIfZBvnVnVC0vycKURywF0RqclDjU2sdYVqsvMHNupMLxygWeK0rp+ck1hB 6rjo61zNprpeaxCCTiPEvbJwOQ8XjoLkbfm3R8MLo+URkdIm2/m4oiIlZ7qfeo2QUUlw hCOg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=mEnWU1miJIWXha54jdoVJIQfqeZSz5/A1voN0y6lWns=; b=CRdgX8rsmUt/5HEYIk4/N3DV7WqgVHTRIxEX4VPTGETZHP18SXj1/zsv0bfhMNBlfH 4Wfg/fqi7xvnaO1VsI6yuld4swL7Xm70xAciEfhL9c0Uofwr1BfF9IoLjmov37k/B8lV 9U185Kzw9/vvQhZMul87DnP01jjznJ22u4U8ol8eCv1cS7qGl8LNfgMehb6GsAB2IfjX Z2WiFgODP/3g/LdZFAvFlGFJ9pe77Z8rmFSRq9g6ZPh3OBxxpQUsL1UKSzWfBXApCptL HrioE3Fbpkb8ufX9LgC1+4so5mV//9l1shu90GuvK2K5W+oVnFaWG0MgI7NQP7w4AF1H BNXA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnRxJpQmIueqJTF0WBV1q3gxMvzLtS0D0AViCm9yjf3ekVR9h3HLd5qGNrB6tegaTbaSgAE X-Received: by 10.129.73.208 with SMTP id w199mr20729058ywa.223.1448393962734; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 11:39:22 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.13.232.201 with HTTP; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 11:38:43 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37C651D1@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37C65630@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <6208A6E4-BA3F-4202-A72E-86B9D3E6F82A@vidyo.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37C65C6A@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37C66F91@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> From: Eric Rescorla Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 11:38:43 -0800 Message-ID: To: Peter Thatcher Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114dd1f6a5020a05254e7f08 Archived-At: Cc: Jonathan Lennox , "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] JSEP: Candidiates in SDP X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 19:39:26 -0000 --001a114dd1f6a5020a05254e7f08 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 11:33 AM, Peter Thatcher wrote: > I think Christer's real question is "how does JS pass candidates down > remote candidate to the browser?". And I think the answer is that it can > come down via either addIceCandidate or via setRemoteDescription (the SDP= , > either offer or answer). > > Another way of phrasing the question is: "If the PeerConnection sees > candidates in the remote description that weren't passed down via > addIceCandidate, should it use them or throw them away?". And I think th= e > answer is "it should use them". > This is absolutely the case. Otherwise you are going to have a horrendous interop problem with non-trickle endpoints. I think this probably falls within the TODO in S 5.6.2: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep-12#section-5.6.2 Such is not explicitly specified in JSEP, but section 4.1.11 for > addIceCandidate says the candidate "will be added to the remote descripti= on > according to the rules defined for Trickle ICE". Which makes one think > that if addIceCandidate is equivalent to adding a candidate to the remote > description, then adding a candidate to the remote description be > equivalent to addIceCandidate. But it doesn't say so explicitly. > > > Chrome implements this way (accepts candidates in the SDP that aren't fro= m > addIceCandidate). > As does Firefox. -Ekr *Sent:* 24 November 2015 18:25 >> *To:* Christer Holmberg >> *Cc:* Jonathan Lennox ; rtcweb@ietf.org >> >> *Subject:* Re: [rtcweb] JSEP: Candidiates in SDP >> >> >> >> Now that we have trickle we should probably outlaw this. I don't think i= t >> was ever widely supported anyway. >> >> On Tuesday, 24 November 2015, Christer Holmberg < >> christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote: >> >> Correct. I was maybe unclear, but I was not talking about replacing >> previous candidates, but adding new ones, using an updated offer, while = it >> is still =E2=80=9Callowed=E2=80=9D. >> >> >> >> Regards, >> >> >> >> Christer >> >> >> >> *From:* Jonathan Lennox [mailto:jonathan@vidyo.com] >> *Sent:* 24 November 2015 18:20 >> *To:* Emil Ivov >> *Cc:* Christer Holmberg ; rtcweb@ietf.or= g >> *Subject:* Re: [rtcweb] JSEP: Candidiates in SDP >> >> >> >> Not so. See RFC 5245 sections 9.2.1.2, 9.2.2.1, and 9.3.1.4 =E2=80=94 if= ICE is >> still in the Running state, an endpoint is allowed to send an updated of= fer >> (or answer) with additional candidates. It=E2=80=99s sort of a =E2=80= =9Cpoor man=E2=80=99s >> trickle=E2=80=9D. >> >> >> >> >> >> On Nov 24, 2015, at 11:05 AM, Emil Ivov wrote: >> >> >> >> Sounds like an ICE restart. >> >> >> >> If it isn't then this is not currently allowed by any spec. >> >> >> >> Emil >> >> On Tuesday, 24 November 2015, Christer Holmberg < >> christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> >> >> I am thinking e.g. about the case where the JS app receives a subsequent >> offer from the remote party, and the updated offer contains new candidat= es >> that weren=E2=80=99t provided in the previous offer. >> >> >> >> Regards, >> >> >> >> Christer >> >> >> >> *From:* Eric Rescorla [mailto:ekr@rtfm.com ] >> *Sent:* 24. marraskuuta 2015 15:38 >> *To:* Christer Holmberg >> *Cc:* rtcweb@ietf.org >> *Subject:* Re: [rtcweb] JSEP: Candidiates in SDP >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 4:31 AM, Christer Holmberg < >> christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> >> >> A question for clarification: >> >> >> >> Is addIceCandidiate the MUST-USE mechanism for providing candidiates >> using JSEP? I.e. one can not rely on providing candidates in SDP? >> >> >> >> >> >> I don't understand the question. Under some conditions, the SDP will hav= e >> the candidates, >> >> specifically, if you wait until gathering is finished and then get the >> offer/answer. However, >> >> absent explicit agreement between the sides (or them being the same app) >> then you >> >> don't know that that's true. >> >> >> >> -Ekr >> >> >> >> Regards, >> >> >> >> Christer >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> rtcweb mailing list >> rtcweb@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> sent from my mobile >> _______________________________________________ >> rtcweb mailing list >> rtcweb@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> sent from my mobile >> >> _______________________________________________ >> rtcweb mailing list >> rtcweb@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > > --001a114dd1f6a5020a05254e7f08 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 11:33 AM, Peter Thatcher <= pthatcher@google.= com> wrote:

I think Christer's real que= stion is "how does JS pass candidates down remote candidate to the bro= wser?".=C2=A0 And I think the answer is that it can come down via eith= er addIceCandidate or via setRemoteDescription (the SDP, either offer or an= swer). =C2=A0
Another way o= f phrasing the question is: =C2=A0"If the PeerConnection sees candidat= es in the remote description that weren't passed down via addIceCandida= te, should it use them or throw them away?".=C2=A0 And I think the ans= wer is "it should use them".

This is absolutely the case. Otherwise you are going to have a horr= endous

interop problem with non-trickle endpoints. I think this p= robably falls within

the TODO in S 5.6.2:

https://= tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-jsep-12#section-5.6.2

Such is not explicitly specified i= n JSEP, but section 4.1.11 for addIceCandidate says the candidate "wil= l be added to the remote description according to the rules defined for Tri= ckle ICE".=C2=A0 Which makes one think that if addIceCandidate is equi= valent to adding a candidate to the remote description, then adding a candi= date to the remote description be equivalent to addIceCandidate.=C2=A0 But = it doesn't say so explicitly.

Chro= me implements this way (accepts candidates in the SDP that aren't from = addIceCandidate).

As does Firef= ox.

-Ekr

<= br>

Sent: 24 November 2015 18:25
To: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>
Cc: Jonathan Lennox <jonathan@vidyo.com>; rtcweb@ietf.org

Subject: Re: [rtcweb] JSEP: Candidiates in SDP

=C2=A0

Now that we have trickle we should probably outlaw t= his. I don't think it was ever widely supported anyway.

On Tuesday, 24 November 2015, Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com= > wrote:

Correct. I was maybe unclear, but I was not = talking about replacing previous candidates, but adding new ones, using an updated offer, while it is still =E2=80=9Callowed=E2=80= =9D.

=C2=A0

Regards,

=C2=A0

Christer

=C2=A0

From: Jonathan Lennox [mailto:jonathan@vidyo.com]
Sent: 24 November 2015 18:20
To: Emil Ivov <emcho@jitsi.org>
Cc: Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@ericsson.com>; rtcweb@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] JSEP: Candidiates in SDP<= /p>

=C2=A0

Not so. See RFC 5245 sections 9.2.1.2, 9.2.2.1, and = 9.3.1.4 =E2=80=94 if ICE is still in the Running state, an endpoint is allo= wed to send an updated offer (or answer) with additional candidates.=C2=A0 It=E2=80=99s sort of a =E2=80=9Cpoor man=E2=80=99s trickle=E2=80=9D.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Nov 24, 2015, at 11:05 AM, Emil Ivov <emcho= @jitsi.org> wrote:

=C2=A0

Sounds like an ICE restart.

=C2=A0

If it isn't then this is not currently allowed b= y any spec.

=C2=A0

Emil

On Tuesday, 24 November 2015, Christer Holmberg <christer.holmberg@er= icsson.com> wrote:

Hi,

=C2=A0

I am thinking e.g. about the = case where the JS app receives a subsequent offer from the remote party, and the updated offer contains new candidates that weren=E2= =80=99t provided in the previous offer.

=C2=A0
Regards,=

=C2=A0
Christer=

=C2=A0
From: Eric Rescorla [mailto:ekr@rtf= m.com]
Sent: 24. marraskuuta 2015 15:38
To: Christer Holmberg
Cc: rtcweb@ietf= .org
Subject: Re: [rtcweb] JSEP: Candidiates in SDP<= /p>
=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 4:31 AM, Christer Holmberg &= lt;christer.holmberg@ericsson.com> wrote:

Hi,

=C2=A0

A question for clarification:

=C2=A0

Is addIceCandidiate the MUST-US= E mechanism for providing candidiates using JSEP? I.e. one can not rely on = providing candidates in SDP?

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

I don't understand the questio= n. Under some conditions, the SDP will have the candidates,

specifically, if you wait until ga= thering is finished and then get the offer/answer. However,

absent explicit agreement between = the sides (or them being the same app) then you

don't know that that's tru= e.

=C2=A0

-Ekr

=C2=A0

Regards,
=C2=A0

Christer

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinf= o/rtcweb

=C2=A0

--
sent from my mobile
_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org
= https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

=C2=A0

--
sent from my mobile

_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

--001a114dd1f6a5020a05254e7f08-- From nobody Tue Nov 24 14:44:44 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 744321A90CC for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 14:44:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.978 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.978 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7KlNE2lI0v5T for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 14:44:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yk0-x233.google.com (mail-yk0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c07::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EF6921A8A95 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 14:44:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by ykdv3 with SMTP id v3so37072055ykd.0 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 14:44:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=aliax-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=VOtorpa0D2ICUWuscbwPulqzNGiIexjxI7qf6OE72yE=; b=emjen7kjTYkEgeZrNv7+blLUaeEs83vVA8WSSQ3bnLNP6x/t8Z3MbK4yU7xM/0x64t gyBZXKGvj7+0fuAHBkykjho1eJXH2FtufckSE2fzj23HixL90MRZpjPdNxnWrXjEhJI5 AcS8s+qeMyMWDgGCXw7cJNttBGlqA2xUAuJvpq8f6QjXwyar5bsfHbttzHv6BKmOAtOT agd/GiYcFe46pCLFzTHNilR9O6bJwn9If+3y5Cc8D99M7g8u9tEWJUIVPkd8q6Gm+Hi1 FQWh1GVltQfJe6Za+1KxjHrCDQ91jrh3uKhBRqsp6ZmaVgy7ihY2qSv/72zDC7uu+oQi 46/g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=VOtorpa0D2ICUWuscbwPulqzNGiIexjxI7qf6OE72yE=; b=LUwbn46pah767WqE4ASF60ODb0SraBBp8r+/sh2Dl2/Hho7Wo29Yqua5xYznLLWmSU 3U6kch2gttlJwMhJhZTY/zZmwKyi7e5LbYQt80xeQzxay7x5jU4FzS72cMJN46jAS8wp T+DSi1kRdfY8lE9nXAIZoCpdpNU2Vx7cjrZvPOylk5qp1jH+4jJInwfHj4vzn+4UmcS1 eiSBJ2rvKOkusDShMkvkOdtnZTjRN45nmdkUhgsywlWlim6uCmq6Y6o+596fjX/mMHYN GnDuwE4LTW4rPfdawO/24zHZiwugXvNdMlDMW7ZNobXMxch969U3uyq1U1eeKDW4nPGG RdUQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmfX7rXvEzOS+YULsQZFOBxY6g8TIK+Y9K9DKXKteg9aS5J/Bnzj4LKYO6v0EgWfJDBIaLX X-Received: by 10.129.41.87 with SMTP id p84mr763483ywp.278.1448405080331; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 14:44:40 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.37.52.132 with HTTP; Tue, 24 Nov 2015 14:44:20 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <6208A6E4-BA3F-4202-A72E-86B9D3E6F82A@vidyo.com> References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37C651D1@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37C65630@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <6208A6E4-BA3F-4202-A72E-86B9D3E6F82A@vidyo.com> From: =?UTF-8?Q?I=C3=B1aki_Baz_Castillo?= Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 23:44:20 +0100 Message-ID: To: Jonathan Lennox Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] JSEP: Candidiates in SDP X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2015 22:44:42 -0000 2015-11-24 17:19 GMT+01:00 Jonathan Lennox : > Not so. See RFC 5245 sections 9.2.1.2, 9.2.2.1, and 9.3.1.4 =E2=80=94 if = ICE is > still in the Running state, an endpoint is allowed to send an updated off= er > (or answer) with additional candidates. It=E2=80=99s sort of a =E2=80=9C= poor man=E2=80=99s > trickle=E2=80=9D. This is the reason why rfc5245-bis removes the SDP from the ICE specificati= on. --=20 I=C3=B1aki Baz Castillo From nobody Wed Nov 25 07:55:35 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA9661B2E7E for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 07:55:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.416 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.416 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_46=0.6, MANGLED_SAVELE=2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZHoEURzgM4Ne for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 07:55:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-nor35.orange.com [80.12.70.35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DBBFA1B2E82 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 07:55:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from opfednr03.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.67]) by opfednr20.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id EE44C403D1; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 16:55:26 +0100 (CET) Received: from Exchangemail-eme2.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.31.17]) by opfednr03.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id DA52A1A0067; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 16:55:25 +0100 (CET) Received: from OPEXCLILM44.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::b08d:5b75:e92c:a45f]) by OPEXCLILM24.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::a1e6:3e6a:1f68:5f7e%19]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Wed, 25 Nov 2015 16:55:25 +0100 From: To: Magnus Westerlund , Cullen Jennings , "" Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] WGLC draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-codecs-for-interop-02 Thread-Index: AQHRF5dWIYJ5KCy/PU2r+JAnzcdFop6h7F8AgAsQRfA= Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 15:55:25 +0000 Message-ID: <12471_1448466926_5655D9ED_12471_1_1_2842AD9A45C83B44B57635FD4831E60A0CD0D387@OPEXCLILM44.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <45EA7E8F-02B2-4664-820F-DE07A17D4C61@iii.ca> <564C99C2.7000504@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: <564C99C2.7000504@ericsson.com> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.168.234.1] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="_002_2842AD9A45C83B44B57635FD4831E60A0CD0D387OPEXCLILM44corp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [rtcweb] WGLC draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-codecs-for-interop-02 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Nov 2015 15:55:34 -0000 --_002_2842AD9A45C83B44B57635FD4831E60A0CD0D387OPEXCLILM44corp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Magnus, all Thank you very much, Magnus, for your review. I agree with all your comment= s that are indeed needed to be taken into account before publication.=20 Please find attached a draft -03 version that tries to capture all your co= mments (+some more editorial updates and corrections for further cleaning).= =20 To summarize the modifications - proposal to keep myself as the only author to comply with the requirement= to limit the number of authors=20 - reference removed from abstract=20 - "Definition" section renamed "Definition and abbreviations" so that all a= cronyms can be made explicit in this section - some informative references added as much as possible - slight update of HD voice figures (number of networks, customers...) - addition of more explicit information on packetization for additional cod= ecs (which is indeed a key point for interop !) - addition of normative reference related to additional codecs - text added in "Security" section - references related to additional codecs implementation moved under normat= ive reference section You can also check in your e-mail below my answers inserted point by point Please do not hesitate to let me know if it is ok for you; I hope it is now= in a better shape for publication. Best regards St=E9phane -----Message d'origine----- De=A0: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Magnus Westerl= und Envoy=E9=A0: mercredi 18 novembre 2015 16:31 =C0=A0: Cullen Jennings; Objet=A0: Re: [rtcweb] WGLC draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-codecs-for-interop-02 Hi, I have reviewed the WebRTC audio codecs for interop draft and have the foll= owing comments. Summary: Not ready yet for publication. A. The author list is 7 persons long. Please consider how you want to deal = with the general limitation of 5 authors on the front page: See Section 4.1= .1 of https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc7322.txt >> Ok. With the kind agreement of the co-authors and since I would have no = way to choose what names I should keep or remove, the only solution I would= see and propose would be to stay the only author B. Use of acronyms: There a large number of acronyms that aren't spelled out on their first usa= ge. PSTN, PLMN, IMS, VoLTE, ViLTE, AMR-WB, MOS, GSMA for example >>Ok : Sure ! I propose to rename the definition section in definion and ab= breviations and detail here all the acronyms=20 C. Lack of references. In section 2 and 3 a lot of the terms used could benefit from having a info= rmative reference for them. >> Ok. I've added some more informative reference about DECT and 3GPP 2G, 3= G and 4G (IP/IMS) networks. D. Section 4.1.2: "The market of voice personal communication is driven by mobile terminals." Shouldn't it be "personal voice communication"? >>Yes indeed. I corrected this E. Section 5. Security Consideration This section is empty, which is not allowed. >> Some text is now proposed F. Section 8.1: Normative references. >>Since the draft intends to be informational, I agree that there is no nee= d to reference RFC2119 since words MUST, SHALL. are not used. If it is all= owed to have normative references in an informational draft I also agree t= hat some reference can be considered as normative with respect to the guide= lines given for implementation (whereas some other are just for additional = information). So the proposed update now include both normative and informa= tive references. For instance I added directly in the document the normativ= e specifications related to the additional codecs considered (previously on= ly indirectly referred) As there are no reference to RFC2119 in use, I question its inclusion as a = normative reference. Secondly, it appears that what can be normative refere= nces are the actual references needed to implement each of the recommendati= ons. G. I think this document is not clear on enough on what RTP packetization t= hat is to be implemented with each codec. I would recommend that you are ex= plicit about which payload format specification that is to be supported for= each of the codecs. >> Good point. The information was in the references indicated but since th= is is a key issue for interop it worth stating this in full words in the do= cument Cheers Magnus Westerlund Den 2015-11-05 kl. 07:57, skrev Cullen Jennings: > We would like to start the working group last call of=20 > draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-codecs-for-interop-02. Please send any=20 > comments to the list by the end of Nov 30. > > > _______________________________________________ rtcweb mailing list=20 > rtcweb@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > --=20 Magnus Westerlund ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 F=E4r=F6gatan 6 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ rtcweb mailing list rtcweb@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb ___________________________________________________________________________= ______________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden= tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu= ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el= ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, France Telecom - Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete al= tere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf= ormation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorization. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele= te this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, France Telecom - Orange shall not be liable if th= is message was modified, changed or falsified. 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draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-codecs-for-interop-02 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Nov 2015 10:20:21 -0000 Hello Stephane, On 2015/11/26 00:55, stephane.proust@orange.com wrote: > Hello Magnus, all > > Thank you very much, Magnus, for your review. I agree with all your comments that are indeed needed to be taken into account before publication. > Please find attached a draft -03 version that tries to capture all your comments (+some more editorial updates and corrections for further cleaning). Please don't attach drafts. Please submit them, so that people can use the tools they are familiar with (e.g. diff,...) more easily. You can always submit one more draft if there are additional changes; integers are cheap. Regards, Martin. From nobody Sun Nov 29 02:28:10 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 759F91B377D for ; Sun, 29 Nov 2015 02:28:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lGxbEAhmpwMQ for ; Sun, 29 Nov 2015 02:28:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-x229.google.com (mail-pa0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B37C71B3779 for

- LTE abbreviation should be placed in alphabetical orde= r before MOS abbreviation;
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 also change "3GPP &q= uot;4G" wireless standard"=C2=A0 to=C2=A0 "3GPP "4G&quo= t; wireless data transmission standard"

- PLMN - it= should be 'Network' - not 'Networks'

- = PSTN - it should be 'Network' - not 'Networks'

3=C2=A0 Rationale for additional WebRTC codecs

=

2nd and 3rd lines - remove two instances of 'the'=C2=A0= =C2=A0 - change "guarantee the codec interoperability (without =
=C2=A0=C2=A0 transcoding) at the state of the art voice quality&= quot;=C2=A0 to=C2=A0 "guarantee codec interoperability (without transc= oding) at
=C2=A0=C2=A0 state of the art voice quality"=C2=A0

4th line - change "The WebRTC technology is however expected to be used"=C2=A0 to=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0 "The WebRT= C technology is also expected to be used"=C2=A0=C2=A0

<= /div>
2nd last line - change "more CPU and be more costly" to= "more CPU processing and be more costly" .
=
4.1.2

3rd last line - c= hange "terminal." to "terminals."

<= b>4.3.2

2nd line - change "cordeless"= ; to "cordless".

Acknowledgements= :=C2=A0

Does the Author want to name all or some of the 6 co-au= thors who were 'deleted' in this Section?

Cheers,
/Barry

Barry Dingle
Fixed - +6= 1-3-9725-3937=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Mob - +61-41-911-7578=C2=A0=C2=A0
Fellow of = University of Melbourne, Australia

On Thu, Nov 26, 2015 at 2:55 AM, <stephane.proust@orange.com> wrote:

Hello Magnus, all

Thank you very much, Magnus, for your review. I agree with all your comment= s that are indeed needed to be taken into account before publication.
Please find attached a draft -03=C2=A0 version that tries to capture all yo= ur comments (+some more editorial updates and corrections for further clean= ing).

To summarize the modifications
- proposal to keep myself as the only author to comply with the requirement= to limit the number of authors
- reference removed from abstract
- "Definition" section renamed "Definition and abbreviations= " so that all acronyms can be made explicit in this section
- some informative references added as much as possible
- slight update of HD voice figures (number of networks, customers...)
- addition of more explicit information on packetization for additional cod= ecs (which is indeed a key point for interop !)
- addition of normative reference related to additional codecs
- text added in "Security" section
- references related to additional codecs implementation moved under normat= ive reference section

You can also check in your e-mail below my answers inserted point by point<= br>
Please do not hesitate to let me know if it is ok for you; I hope it is now= in a better shape for publication.

Best regards

St=C3=A9phane

-----Message d'origine-----
De=C2=A0: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-= bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Magnus Westerlund
Envoy=C3=A9=C2=A0: mercredi 18 novembre 2015 16:31
=C3=80=C2=A0: Cullen Jennings; <rtcwe= b@ietf.org>
Objet=C2=A0: Re: [rtcweb] WGLC draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-codecs-for-interop-0= 2

Hi,

I have reviewed the WebRTC audio codecs for interop draft and have the foll= owing comments.

Summary: Not ready yet for publication.

A. The author list is 7 persons long. Please consider how you want to deal = with the general limitation of 5 authors on the front page: See Section 4.1= .1 of https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc7322.txt
>> Ok. With the kind agreement of the co-authors and since I w= ould have no way to choose what names I should keep or remove, the only sol= ution I would see and propose would be to stay the only author

B. Use of acronyms:
There a large number of acronyms that aren't spelled out on their first= usage. PSTN, PLMN, IMS, VoLTE, ViLTE, AMR-WB, MOS, GSMA for example
>>Ok : Sure ! I propose to rename the definition section in de= finion and abbreviations and detail here all the acronyms

C. Lack of references.
In section 2 and 3 a lot of the terms used could benefit from having a info= rmative reference for them.
>> Ok. I've added some more informative reference about DE= CT and 3GPP 2G, 3G and 4G (IP/IMS) networks.

D. Section 4.1.2:
"The market of voice personal communication is driven by mobile=C2=A0 = terminals."
Shouldn't it be "personal voice communication"?
>>Yes indeed. I corrected this

E. Section 5. Security Consideration
This section is empty, which is not allowed.
>> Some text is now proposed

F. Section 8.1: Normative references.
>>Since the draft intends to be informational, I agree that th= ere is no need to reference RFC2119 since words MUST, SHALL. are not used.= =C2=A0 If it is allowed to have normative references in an informational dr= aft=C2=A0 I also agree that some reference can be considered as normative w= ith respect to the guidelines given for implementation (whereas some other = are just for additional information). So the proposed update now include bo= th normative and informative references. For instance I added directly in t= he document the normative specifications related to the additional codecs c= onsidered (previously only indirectly referred)
As there are no reference to RFC2119 in use, I question it= s inclusion as a normative reference. Secondly, it appears that what can be= normative references are the actual references needed to implement each of= the recommendations.

G. I think this document is not clear on enough on what RTP packetization t= hat is to be implemented with each codec. I would recommend that you are ex= plicit about which payload format specification that is to be supported for= each of the codecs.
>> Good point. The information was in the references indicated= but since this is a key issue for interop it worth stating this in full wo= rds in the document

Cheers

Magnus Westerlund

Den 2015-11-05 kl. 07:57, skrev Cullen Jennings:
> We would like to start the working group last call of
> draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-codecs-for-interop-02. Please send any
> comments to the list by the end of Nov 30.
>
>
> _______________________________________________ rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb
>

--

Magnus Westerlund

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Services, Media and Network features, Ericsson Research EAB/TXM
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ericsson AB=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| = Phone=C2=A0 +46= 10 7148287
F=C3=A4r=C3=B6gatan 6=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0| Mobile +46 73 0949079
SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------

_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

____________________________________________________________________= _____________________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden= tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu= ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les message= s electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
France Telecom - Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete al= tere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf= ormation that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorization.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele= te this message and its attachments.
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Thank you.

_______________________________________________
rtcweb mailing list
rtcweb@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb

--001a1145d8ce48f31b0525ab61a0-- From nobody Sun Nov 29 23:38:56 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E0921B2B99 for ; Sun, 29 Nov 2015 23:38:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.483 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.483 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.585, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id u2Ndp2JFYs57 for ; Sun, 29 Nov 2015 23:38:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-nor34.orange.com [80.12.70.34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS 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<45EA7E8F-02B2-4664-820F-DE07A17D4C61@iii.ca> <564C99C2.7000504@ericsson.com> <12471_1448466926_5655D9ED_12471_1_1_2842AD9A45C83B44B57635FD4831E60A0CD0D387@OPEXCLILM44.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.168.234.1] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2842AD9A45C83B44B57635FD4831E60A0CD0DC47OPEXCLILM44corp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] WGLC draft-ietf-rtcweb-audio-codecs-for-interop-02 X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 07:38:54 -0000 --_000_2842AD9A45C83B44B57635FD4831E60A0CD0DC47OPEXCLILM44corp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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--_000_2842AD9A45C83B44B57635FD4831E60A0CD0DC47OPEXCLILM44corp_-- From nobody Mon Nov 30 21:30:34 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtcweb@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 688FB1B3912 for ; Mon, 30 Nov 2015 21:30:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FRYVcoFlF8Oo for ; Mon, 30 Nov 2015 21:30:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp65.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (smtp65.iad3a.emailsrvr.com [173.203.187.65]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A4A421A882D for ; Mon, 30 Nov 2015 21:30:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp25.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by smtp25.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 9C18B180822; Tue, 1 Dec 2015 00:30:30 -0500 (EST) X-Auth-ID: fluffy@iii.ca Received: by smtp25.relay.iad3a.emailsrvr.com (Authenticated sender: fluffy-AT-iii.ca) with ESMTPSA id 0E80C18081F; Tue, 1 Dec 2015 00:30:29 -0500 (EST) X-Sender-Id: fluffy@iii.ca Received: from [192.168.4.100] ([UNAVAILABLE]. [128.107.241.185]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA) by 0.0.0.0:465 (trex/5.5.4); Tue, 01 Dec 2015 00:30:30 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.1 $3096.5$) From: Cullen Jennings In-Reply-To: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37C65C6A@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> Date: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 22:30:30 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <5E8CA968-0754-4CE5-A177-787CD3AA96AD@iii.ca> References: <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37C651D1@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37C65630@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> <6208A6E4-BA3F-4202-A72E-86B9D3E6F82A@vidyo.com> <7594FB04B1934943A5C02806D1A2204B37C65C6A@ESESSMB209.ericsson.se> To: Christer Holmberg X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3096.5) Archived-At: Cc: "rtcweb@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [rtcweb] JSEP: Candidiates in SDP X-BeenThere: rtcweb@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Real-Time Communication in WEB-browsers working group list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2015 05:30:33 -0000 JSEP does not change that part of SDP. (which amounts to the same thing = that Ekr, Martn, Peter etc said ) > On Nov 24, 2015, at 9:24 AM, Christer Holmberg = wrote: >=20 > Correct. I was maybe unclear, but I was not talking about replacing = previous candidates, but adding new ones, using an updated offer, while = it is still =E2=80=9Callowed=E2=80=9D. > =20 > Regards, > =20 > Christer > =20 > From: Jonathan Lennox [mailto:jonathan@vidyo.com]=20 > Sent: 24 November 2015 18:20 > To: Emil Ivov > Cc: Christer Holmberg ; = rtcweb@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [rtcweb] JSEP: Candidiates in SDP > =20 > Not so. See RFC 5245 sections 9.2.1.2, 9.2.2.1, and 9.3.1.4 =E2=80=94 = if ICE is still in the Running state, an endpoint is allowed to send an = updated offer (or answer) with additional candidates. It=E2=80=99s sort = of a =E2=80=9Cpoor man=E2=80=99s trickle=E2=80=9D. > =20 > =20 > On Nov 24, 2015, at 11:05 AM, Emil Ivov wrote: > =20 > Sounds like an ICE restart.=20 > =20 > If it isn't then this is not currently allowed by any spec. > =20 > Emil >=20 > On Tuesday, 24 November 2015, Christer Holmberg = wrote: > Hi, > =20 > I am thinking e.g. about the case where the JS app receives a = subsequent offer from the remote party, and the updated offer contains = new candidates that weren=E2=80=99t provided in the previous offer. > =20 > Regards, > =20 > Christer > =20 > From: Eric Rescorla [mailto:ekr@rtfm.com]=20 > Sent: 24. marraskuuta 2015 15:38 > To: Christer Holmberg > Cc: rtcweb@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [rtcweb] JSEP: Candidiates in SDP > =20 > =20 > =20 > On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 4:31 AM, Christer Holmberg = wrote: > Hi, > =20 > A question for clarification: > =20 > Is addIceCandidiate the MUST-USE mechanism for providing candidiates = using JSEP? I.e. one can not rely on providing candidates in SDP? > =20 > =20 > I don't understand the question. Under some conditions, the SDP will = have the candidates, > specifically, if you wait until gathering is finished and then get the = offer/answer. However, > absent explicit agreement between the sides (or them being the same = app) then you > don't know that that's true. > =20 > -Ekr > =20 > Regards, > =20 > Christer > =20 > =20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb >=20 > =20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > sent from my mobile > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb > =20 > _______________________________________________ > rtcweb mailing list > rtcweb@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rtcweb